Paul Lederer, the chairman and co-owner of the Western Sydney Wanderers. Football is in his veins and during his time with the Wanderers, the club has won the 2014 Asian Champions League, moved into the State of the Art Wanderers Centre of Football and of course seen the construction of Bank West Stadium. In 2018 he was elected the new chairman of the Australian Professional Football Club Association. I sat down with Paul in his office. So Paul, let's start with your love of the beautiful game, the world game. Where did it start? Where did that fire begin for you? I think like every kid, I probably was five years of age or maybe a bit younger and you just fall in love with the game. I think it's the most simplistic, the most beautiful game you can play. It's the easiest game, get a ball, kick it to your mates and you just fall in love with it. It's completely impartial if I can use that word to the game of soccer or the game of football because it doesn't matter where you live, how you live, all you need is a ball. It unifies everybody. You can be the smartest, the dumbest, you can be the richest or the poorest along as you love the game. Once you get on the pitch, you're all in one group, you're in one team and you enjoy each other's company. I think as a young guy, it's the greatest pleasure in life when you play football. It's a pleasure, it's an honor to play football. It's great. That's why it's probably the number one game in the world, is the world's game getting bigger and better every year. And for you and your family and the letter of name, it's in the DNA, isn't it? It's part of the DNA. It's in the DNA. My father was a goalkeeper back in Hungary, originally from. My uncle was a national team manager for the Australian national team. He was also a team manager for Sydney. It was Hakawa. It's back to his old days. I went back to the roots and it's just natural that we all love football. Where did the Western Sydney Wanderers come from? Where did it come from? Where was it born? It only started only a few years ago. Western Sydney, if I may say, I think been a little bit deprived all the time. It's a working class area, a very proud area, but at the same time the fastest growing area in Australia. I think the annual growth rates are around 8 per cent per annum. And an opportunity came to create a Western Sydney Wanderers football club and the people, of course, captured it. They love it and we got the best support base that money can buy, to be honest. It was mind boggling. As a Western suburbs boy, I grew up one of six, half Lebanese in Guilford, Western Sydney. But to watch this club and the way that it started, the way it captured people's imaginations and family's imaginations and support was like nothing I'd ever seen. I never experienced anything like it myself. From day one, it's been phenomenal. Look, we had a lot of success. We had some failures and we had a couple of bad years, especially the last couple of years have been really, really disappointing. But the fans have been abandoned us. They're phenomenal. And I think we've got a lot to look forward to. Well, let's talk about that. Let's talk about the positivity because, you know, you can't be winning trophies every single day of the week and it was extraordinary, the early success. But there's a lot to be positive about, isn't there, for the Wanderers and the fans of the Wanderers? I think what we achieved as a club in the last eight years, not to be any club has ever achieved that much. Now, of course, our fans are very disappointed because the last 12 months have been very disappointing. We went for a number of coaches. We had lots of interesting coaches. We had Mr. Gambaus started with us. Unfortunately, it didn't work out. Then we had Marcus Pebble, a world-class player with incredible credentials. He started. That didn't work out. He just never got used to the Australian landscape. Now we've got John Paul, who has started with us recently. And I'm crossing my fingers that it'll work out and we're going to give every opportunity to him to make sure it does. What do we need to do? What do we need to do as a club? Win. We need to win. So how do we get the chess pieces? There's no substitute to win him. I think as a squad of players, we have got a great squad of players. But at the same time, I've got to be realistic. A very inconsistent squad. Very inconsistent. For one reason or another, a very inconsistent start. We're going to have a review. We're going to have a review within the next few days, actually. And we're going to have a look at it and say, what did we do wrong? But more important, what are we going to do in the future to make this club what it should be? By the way, did we know Stan turned? And we're going to do everything possible to make it happen. But we need to be realist about the whole thing as well, because it's an interesting time. It's a difficult time. The whole world's wobbling on its axis. So the whole negotiation, payment of players, getting squads together is limited by the fact that do we know what the salary cap is? Do we know what's coming or what's not? So it's a delicate procedure, isn't it? It is. We are talking with FFA about the salary cap. That should be known within the next few days. Most likely within a week, we'll know what the salary cap will be. I can't comment on that, because I don't know what it is. It's a negotiation. Then, of course, we've got to sit down with the PFA and negotiate a deal with the PFA and see where that goes. Look, to manage a football club today compared to six months ago, it's a different world out there. Amazing. It's a different world out there. I'm not going to pull any punches. It's a very difficult time. It changes daily. Absolutely changes daily, as you know. These restrictions, border restrictions, is causing havoc to our game. They're no crowd. Really, it's a real problem, et cetera. Hopefully, we get over it soon. That's all I can say, and we all hope, all of us. Because usually, when things are tough in life, usually when someone loses their job, or life isn't going all that well, sport is that safe haven, isn't it? Sure. The team I follow, the Wanderers or whoever. At the moment, for people that's been stripped from them, it's back in some form now. Sure. Well, look, planning is so difficult. Planning is the most difficult thing I have ever encountered. As you rightly say, we don't know about salary cap. We don't know about travel. We've got bubbles. We've got all kinds of stuff that we never had before. And we do not know what tomorrow brings. Because every single day, the health department will bring out different regulations and different set of rules, which we've got encompassed. And we've got to make our best. But it's very difficult to plan for the near future. I'm very optimistic about the long-term future. I've got no doubt in my mind about the long-term future. I just got a real problem about the near future, how we navigate this and how do we overcome it. But we will. I'm so always positive. It's the only way to be, isn't it? You've got to work at times like this inch by inch, is a cinch, mile by mile is a trial, because you don't know what's coming. So you've got to work with what's in front of you. This season, obviously, it's nearly over. There's been some positives, particularly towards the back end. So we're now going to focus, I'm talking for the A-League team, ahead to this next season. Look, we've got to remain cool. Look, we can overreact. We can have an overreaction about sacking people and get rid of him. You hear the crotch cry, get rid of him and all that sort. That's just irrational. I don't put up with that. To me, you've got to have a cool head. You've got a professional. You've got to look at it objectively. And you've got to do your best. Obviously, that's what we're here for. There's no question about that. And we're here to ensure the long-term future of this club. That's what we're here for. And we will do everything in our power. Is there guarantees in football? I'd love to tell you there is. But unfortunately, I've got to say, there is no guarantee. There is no guarantee. You look around the world, just as recently as now, just as an example, to Chelsea Football Club or the EPL. They sacked their coach, Sari. He went to Juventus. They sacked him there. By the way, this is a world-class coach. This is a guy with all the credentials in a world. There's no guarantees. One guarantee is that we're a club, a strong club, that's building, that's been around for only a short time. And it's very much a family club. And I know that having spoken to you off-camera and discussions, that's a message that is really, really important that we talk about going forward. This is a club for people and families. And it always has been. Look, the most important part of our club is our fan base. Who are we playing for? And the Western Sydney people are very special, always have been. I had the privilege and pleasure of working in that area for the better part of 50 years. So I should know a little bit about the Western Sydney people. They are the best supporters that money can buy. They're phenomenal. These people are passionate, honest, and supportive of the club that's like no other, which is fantastic. And you get it through the whole family, mum, dad, the kids. It's really nice to see. I know in the today's show I did several stories, one in Campbelltown, one here, one there, where the whole family was around the TV and living, breathing every moment, every wanderer moment. Nothing gives me great a pleasure that when I arrive at the game, I get out of a car for about a kilometer from the stadium, banquests, and I walk. And I love walking amongst the people. And you see hundreds, it's not thousands of kids, women, ladies that are wandering around, coming to a game. It is just fantastic. That's what the game is all about. That's why we're doing all this. There's no other reason. There's no real commercial reason you do this. If you are in the game for a commercial benefit, you're in the wrong game. Let me help you. I've been in business for a hell of a long time and football is not about a commercial benefit. But it gives you great satisfaction, great pleasure when you see all these kids and young people, a woman fan base, going to the game, phenomenal. And we've got this great Santa now, Paul. It's extraordinary. It's world class at Blacktown. It is literally a field or fields of dreams without sort of stealing too much from Kevin Costner. And it offers people and young people around that area, many with no money at all, obvious opportunity and opportunity here. Well, I like to say there's a lot of people who think that our club is all about the A League. It's all about the senior team, et cetera. It isn't. It's much more than that. Be part of the community. We build this field of dreams as good expression, a very good expression. It's a field of dreams. It gives everybody an opportunity to play football. They made a conscious decision that we are not charging any fees for any of the players. We were the first club in Australia to do that. Very proud of that. Because again, the hardworking man and woman of the Western Sydney, they don't have to pay. The club will support that. Hopefully in the future, of course, we're going to produce players, hopefully. But at the same time, we're not going to all produce world class players or great players. We're going to produce some, hopefully. But there's also for the people that just enjoy playing the game. That's important. That's what we're going to do. So Ian Crook, such a famous name in the world of football, and he's heading up the academy for the Western Sydney Wanderers. And I had a discussion with him the other day and there's nothing he hasn't done in the game. But he talked to the idea of, of course we want to, like you just said, we want to bring great players through who will then play at the top league. But we also want to have good people and better people when they leave outdoors. Sure. That's very important. I mean, Crook C is a, is a great coach. He has played at the highest level. Don Hotspur, you don't get much better than that. Played EPL, played lots of games. The young kids really love his coaching methods. They love how he behaves, his mannerisms and all that sort of stuff. Look, he's an asset to our club. You don't get too many Crooksies in this country who are prepared to put something back into the game. And by the way, he does this for the love of the game. There's no question about that. It is not so much about dollars and cents. It's all about the love of the game. And hopefully we will uncover some real jams and some real diamonds amongst them. Absolutely. And men and women, the women's game has just grown exponentially. I've got a 12 year old who's in year seven, absolutely loves it. Loves nothing more than being a defensive player in a football team. And it's growing and it's going to continue to grow. I think it's got the most potential, the greatest future. I think the women's game is so underestimated as to what it could become. It has become already, but there's so much more to go. I think women's game of the future will be a game changer. What about those people that just love this game inside and out and have seen the growth of the A-League and are getting a little bit, they get a little bit worried when they see the TV deal and all that kind of thing. What sort of message do you have to those that just want to see the game prosper, those people that live all over Sydney and all over Australia? Look, football has gone through a bit of turmoil lately. There's no question about that. It has, but the potential of football is unlimited. You've got to be positive. It didn't become the number one game in the world by accident. We need the right management, we all do. And we need the right people in the right position and football will go like a rocket. I think we lost our way a little bit. We're not producing enough young players to the caliber we should. I think we really got to concentrate all of us, each individual club and as a unit, to produce the right players. The harry keels of the world, we hear a lot about the Mark Vadoukas of the world. Unfortunately, we're not producing them. There's got to be a reason for that. Now, we're going to give our club every opportunity for every kid to become a new Mark Vadouka or a new harry keel. And it's vital, isn't it? Because they're out there. They're out there. I mean, look, you just got to look at Australia. Australia has a phenomenal sport in country. I mean, you look at sports in Australia and take Aussie rules or you take rugby league or anything. We produce great players. So there's no reason, excuses that we shouldn't produce the greatest players. Why not? We should produce as equally as good as anyone. It's interesting. The Australian average 40-year-old is better physically, mentally in every respect than his counterpart overseas. Gets to the age 17, there's a problem. There's a problem. What is a problem? We have to fix it. That's our challenge. We've got to find why. Why don't more young people get up to the grade that they should be? Yeah, and thank God we've got the facility where the perfect facility. No excuses for us. Zero excuse because honestly, you know, I've been saying it for a while, no excuse whatsoever. We've got the best gymnasium in the world. We've got the best facility, training facility, best academy, the best stadium.  Now, we achieved that in a very short period of time, which I'll say I'm pretty proud personally. And the team that I have should be very proud of what we achieved. And we're always coming back to the last 12 months or 2 years or 3 years for that matter. And by the way, disappointing? Absolutely. I don't hide from that. It's disappointing. Am I happy about that? Of course not, etc. Are there reasons for it? Yes, there are. But to go into great detail, what those reasons are, etc. It's counterproductive, really, counterproductive. And it's behind us. We're going to look for the future. Make tomorrow better. We can get nostalgia here. Let's think back. And it's not that far to some of the success. What was it like when the Wanderers won the title? Oh, look, it's even difficult to mention words for that because it was that great. I mean, we have beaten some of the best teams, not all the teams, the best teams in Asia. Now, when we lined up in China for argument sake and we're playing this team, I think our total budget at that time was around $2 million for our budget or salary cap, you call it. The Chinese team was $450 million. We had players playing against us who were transferred at $40 to $50 million per player. So it was just an incredible experience, incredible effort from our team, from our coaching staff, etc. And an incredible effort from our fans who supported our team through thick and thin. It was fantastic. It was absolutely great. Look, we had a lot of success, really. My message to our fans is just remember one thing. Our club is only seven years old. That's it. That's it. From scratch. So it's not bad. No. Am I happy with the latest results? I keep reminding everyone. I'm not. Am I working my best to overcome that? Yes, I am. And it's only a move that way, a move this way, it's a moment in that way, and it all comes back. It's a very little difference. People believe there's a massive difference to be success or no success. Massive difference. No, it isn't. It could be one or two players. It could be just a different attitude. It could be just a coach. It could be a lot of things. I don't want to pick a point, but the difference is a little difference. We used to say in our club for quite a while, the 1% is make a big difference. Make a big difference. Those small moments. These smaller moments. What about Bankwest when we talk about a big thing? Look, as a boy that used to go to Cumberland Overland, it was just like an old grandstand. They burned it down 981, and they built Paramatter Slash per text stadium. But this place now is just unbelievable. And I happily take my 85-year-old father, and it's accessible to everyone. It's in a great spot, and the Wanderers had a big part to play in it being where it is. Absolutely. And let me say that we did have a part to play for my son-in-law's self. It's a quarter of the best experience of what football is, Bankwest. For me, it's fantastic. The viewing, the atmosphere, the lighting, the facilities, it's a second to none. Second to none that I can think of in Australia. In fact, I would say for a stadium, which is a capacity of 30,000, you can go around the world and you get very few stadiums as good as that. So it's great. It's a pleasure to go there. And you guys paid your part, didn't you? I know you're modest, but the Wanderers were one of the driving forces of getting it built. Well, let me say, Mike Baird won't be happy that I'll tell you. The first option was to give us a check for $30 million to refurbish a stadium. And Mike and his wife and his kids came that particular night out to the game. And I think my words were, Mike, don't waste your money because the bottom line is you just can't do much for $30 million in a stadium. Four weeks later, he rang me up personally. He said, are you happy today because we're going to announce a new stadium? So we had a little bit to do with it. I like to believe we did. And the thing that I love about it is it's a great place to go.  So for them to have the opportunity to go to a world-class stadium and watch the team that they love is great. Well, let me put Tim, put it this way. To my recollection, for 100 years they never had it. This is one in 100. This is the first time the Western Sydney people got a facility that is world-class. That's all I can tell you on that one. That's beautiful. It's fantastic. Well, like I've enjoyed this. It's been great to have a chat. We will chat again. But I just want to leave. What's the message? Because it is a message of positivity. It is a message of a club that is young. It's a message of a club that's had success. But it's got a great fan base and a real solid platform to move into whatever the future holds. Look, my message is we've achieved the hell of a lot. I don't want to leave it on the past. But nevertheless, we've got to realise what we have done and achieved. In life you go through difficulties. You go through challenges. What makes a difference is what do you do about those challenges? How do you react to those challenges? So let's not be rational about this. You've got a great club. You've got a great stadium. You've got a great academy. And by the way, you've got a very good football team. You have. Disappointing this year, yes. That's it. But let's stick together. Oh, absolutely. I mean, look, without saying, I mean, every time when the chips are down, that's when you find out who your friends are. So therefore, the fans as well. This is your club. This club doesn't belong to me. A lot of people say it's your club and etc. It isn't my club. This club belongs to you. The fans own this club and we're trying everything in our power to underpin this club financially. I mean, nobody has spent more money, no one in this country on a club than we are. And why do we do that for the fans? We're not doing it for ourselves. So now we need the fans to support us. Of course we do. Not only support a team when they're winning, support the team through thick and thin. That's what footballers are. You know, that's how it is. Liverpool had their glory days this year. They had a terrible years in the past. But the fans are there every week. Man United is running sixth or running first or running tenth. 74,000 people turn up every week. What's the famous saying? I don't want to put too many cliches in, but I'll finish it. Tough times never last, but tough people do. That's perfectly put, Tim. I could never put it as eloquently as you have. That's fantastic. Thank you. Thank you.


هنا رحمه الله نحنانو ونحسجنو ونحسخفو ونطلوبين ونطبق العريب من أوت العيب الشرور ينفصه ونسعيات عمانية فما يهتني باكونا مدينة ولو يوليو لفنها هاليا لها وإشاروا أننا قيلنا إن الله ورحمه للشركة وإشاروا أننا محمد العبد ورسوله صلى الله عليه وسلم يا عيبا الذي عاملو تقلوها فقاقادي ولا إذا موتوني الوعيد من السلام يا عيب الناس تقلو ربكم الذي خلق كون الناس الوائدة وخلق منها زوجها ورخها منكم مع رجال كثيرا وما للسلام وتقلوها الذي تساعدون بكين ورقها رحالك إنها باها كان عليكم ركيدا يا عيبا الذين عاملون فقلوها وكونوا قولي سدينا يستخدمكم عمانكم ويخفلكم للوباكم وما يبدي الله ورسولكم فقاقادي وخوزنا علينا فقلو خير الحديث يتكلم الله وخير الحديث محمد صلى الله عليه وسلم وشعر ورمولي ممتعاتها وكل ممتعات المدعط وكل مدعط المدعط وكل مدعط المدعط المدعط وكل مدعط المدعط وكل مدعط المدعط ولم يبدا يبدا يبدا يبدا يبدا يبدا يبدا يبدا الحمد لله I should excuse me at any time This is never an easy answer This is never an easy answer Anybody who takes upon themselves to believe that they have the right and the responsibility to stand in front of the people from the member of the Rasool صلى الله عليه وسلم and give warning and admonition and this and the third may Allah guide you I come here today to share with you an admonition not just to you but for myself being that we are coming out of the month of Ramadan and this is our second two month so this is officially the first two month I guess you could say a month or so out because we are not having professitiveness even though this is part of the need for us but this is a time where we actually come together and most of us have to go back to work and deal with the building so I come with you that but I came here today to share with you something that I believe can be a benefit to all of us based on understanding and having been able to look over the years at some of the things I hear most of them say, some of the things I say some of the things you do, some of the things you don't do and primarily for dealing with our children some of you know I haven't benefited and the pleasure to have dealt with some of your children over the last few months and I have been encouraged by dealing with them but I've also been troubled and the occasion point is next to the last week of Ramadan I had the opportunity to sit so useful that he had one night and one of the first questions that was asking me was how can you know that because a lot of the real that needs this or that is a lot from holding this reason and not a lot is allowed to because it's called this is this time to be really troubling that hurt this although I know that this is a conversation that they have quite regularly and this is a result of talking about what I want to talk about but one of the reasons I bring this up is because I want to try to encourage each one of us myself included to recommit ourselves to do something today it's a three part restriction recommit ourselves to having sound in man and as a result of that the topic of my talk today recommitting ourselves to having a talk about trust in Allah nothing or no one else talk about it and as a result of this the end result of what we were supposed to have developed during the month of Ramadan was a talk about this is what the facts are and what Allah has found in this book we were supposed to have developed an increased level of talk about facts but these things only come about as a result of man to walk in talk being part of the end result a long part of the conversation that we can't have today but this is what I want to talk about Allah says this in the book and I said too we will talk more later in the next topic or did you do you bater you became the general or did you became the general did you come to the life to experience before you went to a part of what we are dealing with right now particularly our young people is the violence that we ومكافعة ، فارقاً ، سأضعها نفسها كماناتنا كل هذه الأماغات التي نفعلها ، المعات that does everythingShe creates our actions and is always on the line My intentions and my mind say how we look at the world how we want to go about doing things And that's the end of the world Out of people's company land and the law allows whatever happens for us to happen لذلك نحن always wish to be on the side with our feet but we've also got a sense of almost entirely believing that with Muslims we go to gender classes, no problems, no reckoning, there's no desire for them to do it, we're good and this is not the case this is not the case and even more so we believe that as a result of being Muslim and being fast that we pray and not came out of the camp and I do this and I do that and I help the next man and I'm always thinking of the next person I have a smile on my face we think that we're not supposed to have no types of hardship or difficulties this is not true it's going to relate to our soul some of those who said that the love of the Lord manifests to Him in giving His same trials and tribulations this is a reality for us and the second part of this ayah and they were touched with tribulations and harm and they were shaking because they were shaking down to their core the very soul was troubled was a problem from the experiences and difficulties and they were shaking to their core who's them حتى يكون رسول until the messenger والذين عامل العاوو and those who believed that were with him we're not talking about the prophet we're not talking about the prophet we're not talking about the prophet but again this is to the point where messengers were lost and these people were shaking to their core to the point where they asked the question messengers are so alone women are the helpers of Allah and this is not just a result don't get the wrong idea of them not having to walk with which we're talking about today but this is a result of them having to are close to walking and knowing that Allah gave them a promise that He would help them but He came to the point where they asked the question okay when is this going to happen we're waiting and I don't believe anybody on this messengers will ever believe that they have more trials and tribulations and hardships in any of the large messengers particularly our it's impossible for you to think or even believe or even have the types of trials and tribulations that yet are closer what we're dealing with does not compare as a result of this we have capitulated to a certain degree to a point where oftentimes Muslims men in particular when we are in the world we don't even represent ourselves as Muslims if we don't tell the people that we work with or people in our community don't see us maybe dressing from time to time and particularly our clothing or any other thing or this saying that we're Muslim most people don't know our women have a harder than we do because for the most part the majority of them are going the way they have so they're seen every day but that's again that's another topic but the point is we feel that these people say this these people don't like Muslim data so this was supposed to be a party where we were the life of the party we were never supposed to be the most like people on the planet that wasn't our job to do this because as soon as some of them even said they had people in their own family who were in their restaurant most of us were born Muslims I'm a hundred I'm a hundred and a half I'm obviously 14 years under the Muslim and during that time they constantly amazed that the fact that our belief or our professed belief has always been tempered by what we gain in this movement that's how you're disturbing for me a lot of talks about it in the Quran he says when things are good you're happy when things are bad you fear that the law is abandoned you're left between your own devices and you give up and you run around in the stair yes which is a lot of us but a lot of us as a result lack of he-man therefore no توقل we have the stairs a lot of us too unfortunately we have children and even sometimes about ourselves actually type of questions about how do we know if the law exists think about that and again as a convert this disturbs me because another thing one of the young people asking the other night was what made me accept dean and I'm happy to be back it wasn't that I heard that man but somebody recited that I am from Quran and I was uplifted and I felt so good I saw the Muslims doing all these wonderful things and I wanted to be a part of it I grew up around Muslims and it feels up to us being the reason for people coming into the dean the behavior that I saw from the Muslims was at times worse than mine the Muslims I grew up around even though they advanced and prayed on the outside they had some very corrupt character in the behavior I would never become Muslim if it was me dealing just with the Muslims and what they represented what I saw it would have never happened what got me to grab onto this dean and believe in this dean although I knew it was true I would say all the issues I was dealing with were on the pressure level was hot nothing more this is the truth I know it is like the Qusadi's you said that for a long time I didn't need none of that I knew Muhammad I knew him I knew I didn't come from a monkey I knew this universe didn't just explode out of nothing and created itself I knew that this was the truth if you read the Bible I come from a Christian family I knew that Jesus was like the son of God because it says so in the Bible but we have a very creative way of reading things in a lot of the dean and say what we want it to say even to the point where we have some Muslims who are just not amazed of pain and beliefs that are strange but the vast majority come as a result of a game lack of e-man we don't believe what we say we believe not everybody so please don't get the wrong idea but e-man comes as a result of having a sound understanding of what are they supposed to believe what is necessary for a lot what is possible for a lot what is impossible for a lot most of us don't know this we need to learn these things this is the first line of the prophets in being able to stand upright as a Muslim and have an e-man and as a result of knowing these things and believing in them then we present trust in the Lord because we know this is hot this is true so I don't need anybody or anything to be hot for me why does the Lord have to prove himself to me who am I but this is the attitude a lot of us have oh Lord if you give me this money and do this for me I will do this and I will spend this money and I will go to Hajj and I will build a match here and I will help the people and I will do this and I will do this and oh Lord just please I can take care of my family and this is the third there is a story of one of the companions where he was sent to ask the Lord to give him wealth and the rest of the Lord said the man told him that he should be better if he left that alone but he insisted and he was assuming the Lord after and when it was time for him to take his account he didn't do it this is what he promised to do and it went on for a while and after a period of time he tried to come back I believe him he tried to come back but he refused to take he could then be sent to the Hajj as he was all in his actions where he had to go so but there are some prescriptions for this it takes a time for us to get to it there is a prescription there is something that all of us can do like I said this is a challenge this is something I want all of us to be engaging when we go on to the next you fast and say that we will save the Lord we do what we supposed to do this is the next patient all of us are standing before the Lord I guess you can say 95% because we all do so we are not going to get into that but there is a tradition for رصول صدارة and he said and he said صعادة رغم this is part of the long life one of the another life this is the first part of the first life and صعاد said from the صعادة some people always don't really say the felicity from the black hags we will say from the prosperity from the prosperous nature from the son of Adam رفضار who will be met with God and all of that is that he is pleased with what Allah has decreed for him now to be confused with the father we are talking about the Qadar right now like the Qali the judge you come before the judge you judge something wrong someone didn't knew the Qali makes a decree give the declaration of judgment the Qadar of Allah based on our father Allah knew that we would do certain things and this was already written for us but there was also the other part Allah manifested certain things in our lives as a result of our intentions we want to do certain things Allah gives us to our feet He allows us to happen into our benefit He gives us a land He happens to our judgment but it was then that we are in a state of resolve رفضار who will be met with God he is pleased with what Allah has decreed for him this is from the the felicity nature from the prosperity of the son of Adam now we have the second happy that is the first father and the first this is from the second from the sheham of school رفضار who will be met with God رفضار who will be met with God عزي بني عمر المنطن للمنطن إِدْنَ عَمْرَهُ قُلْلَهُ مُولَهُ خَيْرٌ وَمَلَيْسَ بَلْلِكَا لِيْاهِدْنِ إِلْمَا لَمُولِهِ أستانش ومائسِن is it from the affairs of the believer إِدْنَ عَمْرَهُ كُلْلُهُ لَهُنْ surely all of his affair خَيْر is good وَلَيْسَ بَلْلِكَا لِيْاحَدِهِ إِدْنَ عَمْرَهُ مُولِهِ and this is for no one except the movement one who believes one who believes the movement when you saw that food سَرَانْ شَكَرَهَ تَكَانَهَ خَيْرٌ and if he is struck with something okay we go back to the word if he is struck with something that is a wonder for him something may be his imposter any good thing that can happen to him if he is struck with this شَكَرَهَ تَكَانَهَ خَيْرٌ and he is grateful I come to be like we show him and he thanks a lot for what happened to this if somebody does something for us we thank them we are grateful it is as well when we saw him when we were shooting that the one who just thanked people does not thank a lot so somebody does something for us this is the first way that we attain a lot of pleasure with us being back to him and raking so again go back to the first one the سعادة from the solicitous nature of the son of Adam is this being so long too being pleased with the last repeat then back to the second okay this is our deep thanks to us goodness happens to us we are thankful we give thanks and sugar to the Lord and this is good for us but what else when we saw that who don't know and if some type of harm comes to us we have something we are patient we don't cry we give up this could be real why is this happening to me you know when you ask that question you should be very careful because holding on to that type of understanding questioning a lot it leaves you in a state of comfort despair leaves you in a state of comfort be very careful when you say come out to the mouth we've all heard somebody say this but this is not family or we say it at one point in the time all of this is swiftly better make trouble seriously when the harm comes to us for the movement the suffering of the camera he's patient this is good for him no one else nobody else benefits from this but what is all this why am I talking about this because this shows to what other we trust it in a lot we know for a fact good or bad whatever is happening to us how do we do that if we remember when I was sitting there with the man when he was right behind when we came over there if the entire world got together and do something to you that a lot had not decreased for you they would not be able to do it if the entire U.S. government the government in England in Canada all of them got together and did whatever they tried to do whatever they wanted to do to harm or obliterate to trace it to the Muslim they couldn't do it if this is not something a lot of greed for what do you worry about yes so what is going to happen to those of us who may not have that strong internal communication to be able to withstand some type of hardship and the pressure the people may put on you so you have the opportunity to be a little flexible in how you should accept the people to save yourself from their harm to their abuse but what do you worry about so I will go back to the second part وَمِشْيكَارُ وَتِيْبِنَ الْأَرْمِنِ سَخَطُّهُ بِيْمَكَبُ الْلَهِ الْلَيْهِ Okay, this is the remedy. This is the problem, but there's also a remedy with this apartment. فِلَمْ عَلُوْتُسْ بِيْفَرْ شَوْرِمْ وَبَيْهِ بِيْفْقَوْهِ بَيْهِ الْلَيْهِ A lot of you mentioned in the last one, some of you said that in the previous one, but for the residents of the Son of Adam, for the residents of the Son of Adam, the article who is the father to the law, the even is the father to the law, the even turning to the law and asking him to give preference to what's special to him. All of us are made with the Son of Adam, it's the father to the law, but this is a part of how we remedy this. And this is a part of the reason why a lot of us in the state that we live in, because we choose to do what we want to do instead of the law and the law, to manifest in our lives what's special to us, whether we like it or not, you may hear a thing in the history, and you may love to hear it just after you. So within that, and also it's two things again, for the Son of Adam is leaving his Son of Adam, and for the Son of Adam is supposed to be displeased with, didn't that come to a lot of that, what the law is decreasing, the leaving of the wretched state, wretched state, we seek refuge in the Lord. And may the Lord be pleased with you, and may the Lord be pleased with you, and may the Lord be pleased with you, and may the Lord forgive him. Alhamdulillah, we thank You for the أزال عبد المشارر and God is the greatest. And God is the greatest for him. And to thank You greatly for the لاتباق Okay, ، ولكنما يجب أن يدرسوننا إلى وصف الأرقاد ، إنهم يجب أن يتخفقاتنا سياسًا ، فلن يجب أن يفعلها. ونunfortunately everyone knows someone who has taken to that opinion. الناس العتوoda. يجب أن يتخناينا الحدود بي. يكفي عادتنا تجعلنا تتصديق فتاقية. تتصديق أن يجب أن يلمشنا ذلك. ألوم أخيري و أخسطاني فلا يتكلمني إلا إستياني أو ألو أخذ for me what is best for me and do not need me to choose for myself ألو أزال كريم he is generous he gives and saves he wants to save the children and the society ألو أزال أربي he knows what you are going through he wants to see his observer ألو أزال مجي he responds to you when he acts ألو أزال أراه his mercy and his love and his everything he composes and expands it's encompassing of everything in creation through knowledge and understanding and a number of other things nothing else in promotion he doesn't surround the creation in his body or anything like that or the other things like that this is not what we talk about ألو أزال أخير he is wise he gives what you need sometimes he gives what you want but he more or less gives you what you need and now ألو أزال أراه he troubles you sometimes because he loves you because what happens after this here for all the harms and troubles and tribulations we go through this is a form of purification from our sense the Hadith goes that we go through so many trials and tribulations to the point where we meet a large like we never committed and we didn't sin like that our long work إن شاء الله I hope I have not offended anybody today I understand that sometimes you can talk up here and you can say things and there are some people in the wrong way they can point the fingers but I'm not I need just as much as everybody else so أُسِيكُم أُسِيكُم أُسِيكُم وَنَسِيكُم أُسِيكُم وَنَسِيكُم أُسِيكُم وَنَسِيكُم أُسِيكُم وَنَookِم أَبَا جَ Geoffِن أَبْ أَبْ أَبْ إِحْدَكُم وَبَبَلَح... أَبْ أَبِ safe آيب آيب Imagine أو PRES Не ش inherentسere أصولت أ here اتبعوا اتبعوا


Hey, welcome back everybody. Jeff Frick here with theCUBE. We're in the Palo Alto studios today for some CUBE conversations. We're talking about marketing and marketing automation, but really getting beyond the automation to really engagement, because at the end of the day it's people at the other end of the transaction and it's an important thing to remember as we've kind of swung really far to the automation side and the measurement side and the data side. At the end of the day, it's a person. So really excited to have our next guest. He's TK Kater. He's a GVP of strategy from Marketo. TK, welcome. Thanks. Thanks for having me. Absolutely. So first off, we were talking before we turned the cameras on, you just got back from a European swing. I'm just curious to get kind of a feel while it's fresh in your mind of what's happening there and how does that contrast with what you see kind of here in the US? You know, it's interesting. Yeah, I just got back from about four weeks and across Europe and the cultures are very different and we think of it. Europe and EMEA is one big area, but really each country is very different. The people are different. The cultures are different, but one of the most interesting things for me has been how the challenges that marketers face are the same. They're all trying to figure out as human beings, how do we engage with our customers and our prospects in a more authentic way? And so I was happy to see the things that we talk about with CMOs over here today in North America are very much the same things that they have top of mind on. There is just more connections there are more pieces of technology. There's more data, but at the end of the day, how do we actually authentically connect as a brand and have a meaningful conversation? Still true over there. And that's been awesome, but also gratifying in a way. Right. And then the other thing before we jump into the Marketo piece in depth is you were at ToutApp and you got recently acquired. So kind of what was the mission of ToutApp? Obviously, Marketo saw some value or they wouldn't have brought you on board. And then how is that kind of transitioning now that you're part of the big organization? Yeah, so I started ToutApp about six years ago and our mission from day one was to empower salespeople. Salespeople have a tough job and today they have to do even more and break through the noise, except with marketers, they have technology to automate things and to engage.  And so our mission was to create software that gave salespeople superpowers so they could do their job more effectively using tools like ToutApp. And under Marketo, the vision continues to be the same. Marketo typically helped marketers go from and go from someone that's an unassigned IP address, if you will, to a known person that has downloaded certain eBooks. Right. And then they passed it off to sales and then sales were just kind of ran with it. With the ToutApp acquisition, now Marketo can enable and empower salespeople to continue to engage in a meaningful way using the software tools that we provide. It's really interesting because I think a lot of salespeople specifically and marketers probably to some degree older ones who are working on intuition and we've always done it this way and this is the way it works. Kind of resisting technology where you just use the word they're super suit or they're exoskeleton, whatever. Opportunity is really to use technology and tools to do your job better, not to replace what you do. And I'm curious to get your perception so you're doing it kind of on the sales side. What, how does that look from the marketers point of view and also what does that say the fact that Marketo brought you in as to the change your relationship between sales and marketing? Yeah, so there's a few things there, right? So first of all, technology has always given people ability to do more in a more effective way at scale, if you will. So, and that's definitely the case with the things that we're bringing to market under Marketo and ToutApp. There's over 5,000 pieces of technology out there just for sales and marketing alone. So there's more technology than ever before. When we go out to market, when it comes to younger salespeople even cutting edge marketers that have embraced technology, they love what we're doing for them. But you always see resistance from people that have said, hey, this has always worked this way. I like it's worked fine for me. Why do I need more tools or why do I need technology? I'll talk to a really experienced enterprise rep that says, look, I've closed multimillion dollar deals before you were even three. I'm good. So you have people that are embracing technology because it's giving more scale than you have people that aren't. And I think that there's more technology available than ever before. So tons of opportunity. Well, the other thing that people don't realize is the game has changed. And it almost requires you to use the technology to stay relevant. And that's actually one of the things that not everyone fully embraces right away. But once you kind of break it down for them, it makes a ton of sense. The way I always try to explain it, if you were a marketer, say 10, 15, 20, 30 years ago, you had two or three channels on TV. You had CBS, NBC, maybe, I forget, maybe there's a third channel, right? Right, ABC, CBS, NBC. That's right, those were the big three. And as an advertiser, you would put your dollars in and people would see whatever you were seeing. Today, not only are there thousands of channels, there's YouTube, which has even more channels and there's radio still and the ways to get attention are endless. And what that means is there's been a shift in the landscape. And that's true in, that's true in advertising, but that's also true in just how people engage with content that's out there. So that change requires you to use technology so you can be just as authentic as you were when you had a captive audience of NBC, ABC, and CBS. And I think that once people start to realize that, that the game has changed and that's why you have to use technology and the same thing won't work, then they're like, oh, that's interesting. You're right, what have you got for me? And they become a lot more receptive to it. Because if you're not paying attention, I mean, if you're not making decisions based on software-driven data-based action, your competitors are, so you're falling behind. And if that's not part of your inputs into what your outputs are, you're failing miserably without even really knowing it. Right, well, the question always is, especially for me when you think about technology, no one should ever use technology for technology's sake. So if you asked a question of why use technology, well, we use technology so we can give our customers the best experience. When did you have the best experience ever? So for me, best experience ever was when I was in a small town and I went to the neighborhood store and I hadn't been there in two weeks, but they still remembered my name and my favorite flavor. And they were able to say, hey, did you want the thing that, the usual again. And you just like felt understood.  I'm going to come back here all the time. They may not even have the best food in the menu, but that's a great experience. Technology today, using data, using tools, allows you to replicate that experience, that feeling of, oh, they get me with consumers. And so the smart companies aren't using technology because they want to have a huge budget and spend it there, or they want to use more tools. That's just the name of the game, it's always been. How can you be authentic? Technology allows you to do that with a hundred, with a thousand people now, whereas before you couldn't. So a lot of challenges, right? So technology, like all things is good and bad, right? If you coin us two sides.  And that's kind of what they did. Now, you know, there's so many technologies that are designed around the customer touch points and marketing and campaign management and et cetera, et cetera. So the CMO's impact on spend, on investment, on decisions of technology choices has gone up.  What kind of apps do you use? Are you SaaS or are you in house? I mean, so when you look at kind of the evolving technology space from the marketer point of view, what they should think about, what they shouldn't think about, how has the requirements changed now with, you know, Hadoop to bring in these massive amounts of data that are not even part of your proprietary data structure anymore to integrate that in? How are people thinking about the stack? How is kind of the stack evolving or how should people be thinking about it in leadership positions and marketing? Yeah, I think that today, because there are so many different technologies available, that's one. And two, it is easier and faster than ever to actually adopt a piece of technology in any department. You take something like ToutApp, it wasn't brought in by IT or the CIO, it was actually brought in by an individual sales rep. Think about that, that's not even a C level person making a decision. An individual sales rep would bring it into the org, start using it, get value, and then we would go in and say, hey, let's roll it out to the entire org. So what that means is that there are more options than ever before, but you run the risk of extreme fragmentation. Right, right. And so the onus today is more important than ever for C level folks, CIO, CMOs, CROs, to make sure that they partner with each other and make sure that they make decisions that are great for the customer experience. Because the problem is when you have CIOs making decisions in a silo, when you have marketing, when you have sales, making silo decisions, especially with technology, what ends up happening is forget the costs and the inefficiencies and things not working. Let's forget that for a second. We're security. Yeah, security, all of those things. The things that we care about internally. But what ends up happening is that experience that every company is trying to deliver as a brand of making the consumer feel understood that they get me, that goes away because that fragmentation shows. As they go through their buyer journey, they can almost feel going from the marketing systems to the sales systems, to the support systems. And every single time, it's like walking into a whole new store and they have no idea who I am. And so when you actually put the customer experience first that we have to engage with the customer, give a meaningful way of engaging with them to the entire journey, not just the marketing journey, not just the sales journey, not just the support journey. It becomes obvious that you need to have a set of systems that are orchestrated with each other that are aligned around the customer to engage with them in a meaningful way. So then that begs the question, right? Obviously a lot of applications have APIs now. So there's a lot of ways that you can inter-splice if you will, or kind of cross-function via a lot of different applications. So what should be at the top? And what defines the customer engagement that you can now measure so you feel like you're doing a good job or you're making improvement, right? You're working against a measurable objective. Yeah, absolutely. So you think about, this all ties into this journey that we have been on over the last 10, 20 years around digital transformation, right? And so I have a belief that over the last 10 years we've been all about what we call systems of record. The first job, job number one for us has been how do we have a database or whatever you call it that has a single view of who the customer is, who this person is, and how are they valuable to us? And I think every CMO, CRO, CIO gets that, have invested in that, and if they haven't invested it are going to very soon. And they're making sure that there is a single view of the customer, super important. Well, the next 10 years I believe is going to be about systems of engagement. Meaning it's not enough anymore that you know that this person has purchased from you five times and they are interested in these products and they're shopping around for this and maybe they're thinking about a new role, it's not enough. What matters now is, it's not, it's just not. That's table stakes now. Which is table stakes, right? That's right. Which used to be hard. And an almost unimaginable right to type dream. Right, that's right. And so now it has to be well knowing all that data and this is why you get into things like Hadoop and AI. What is all of that? All of that is really saying we have now, we got the system of record down. We have more data on people than ever before. But guess what's not happening? My salesperson, my marketer, my support person, my cross-sell rep, my CIO, my CEO, my head of demand gen, they are not making decisions based on all the data we have on the system of record. And so what everyone needs to start thinking about is if you've got your system of record, how do you build your system of engagement around that so that everyone is engaging across the buyer journey in a meaningful way based on all the data that's available. And that comes out to using the right technologies. And obviously at Marketo, we believe in the engagement hub, which is the center of all the engagement activities. And we have one of the most open platforms out there. So you have a system of engagement and then out of that can come pieces of technology that helps each of these people engage in a meaningful way in an authentic way using all the data that's available. And how much outside data do you guys tend to use in terms of, so it's publicly available data, Twitter feeds, and those types of kind of non-traditional or non-in-house data sources to help build that engagement kind of profile.  And we think of ourselves as the Switzerland of data. We don't bring in data from specific providers because they're different SLAs. We have very strict standards on what we do with our customer data, but we enable our customers to leverage external data. And I will say it's an interesting time for data. There's a common saying here in Silicon Valley right now. Data is the new oil, right? And we have, as human beings, because we've figured out system of the record and there are all these systems that are connected, we're generating more data daily than the history of the amount of data we had. We're at that state. What's actually interesting is these large swaths of data, which is now data is the new oil, is actually owned by a small handful of companies, right? Google, Amazon, Facebook, are kind of, they own the lion's share of data. And then you have a long tail of data providers that are aggregating data, pulling together data, and inferring data and selling that as well. I think we're in still the very early days of how to make meaning out of all this data, how to bring it all together in a meaningful way so you can make decisions around it. I think that had its chapter one on big data and people made a lot of investments there, but the second chapter is on AI, but we're still early. Right, because oil by itself just messes up your data at the beach, right?  It has to be in context, it has to be used, it has to be put in a machine. Now you have transportation, you can fly around the world. So it is interesting data is a new oil because data as data is really not that valuable if you don't do something with it. Absolutely. It's all about context. And going off your analogy, you think about the engine that used oil in the late 1800s to the engine that efficiently uses oil today. There's an idea of data efficiency efficiently using data in the right way. So we're still early. And I think data is an important piece. We empower our customers to pull in as many data as much data from as many sources as possible so that they can use that to authentically engage with our customers.   What excites you about what we can do, what you can do as an industry over the next several years, I never like to look much past the next several, that get you out of bed in the morning, get you on that plane back to Europe. To Europe. I mean, I love Europe. So. Chris Hall. Yeah. Well, so there's two things. First of all, I think that we are often very hard on ourselves. So the thing that I always try to highlight when I'm meeting with customers that are on this journey, whether it's digital transformation or becoming an engagement company. First of all, so there's two things. Firstly, let's just recognize how far we've come. You have a bigger audience today than Kings had. Meaning you can engage with your audience over Twitter, Facebook, LinkedIn in a more effective way, faster than Kings could over the people that he ruled. Just think about that for a second. We've built the most connected human network ever and each human being has more power than ever to influence and communicate collectively. So first of all, we've come a very long way. What I think is going to be interesting over the next five years is each person is going to get a much bigger voice. And I think people are going to start to learn how much they really yield, how much power they really yield. We're going to move away from, and you've already seen it, you're going to move away from kind of status updates on going to the beach, dot, dot, dot, to actually collectively communicating and influencing each other on things that matter. And today you have thought leaders or influencers up top, but that's going to become a collective thing. We're actually going to realize as human beings how connected we are and how we can influence each other. So one of the things that I really believe in is influencer marketing and advocate marketing. I think that's going to become very, very strong in the coming years because normal people are going to start to realize that you know what, I know a lot about X. X could be cameras, X could be databases or security. I'm going to share what I know over all the channels that I yield. And people are going to kind of come alive on that. People are going to trust each other and you're going to see traditionally you had your gardeners and your foresters that's going to shift to peer to peer trust. And I think that's what's going to happen over the next five years. And that's going to be really exciting because in a way we're connected but we're not active around it. We don't realize how much power we have. That's going to become real over the next five years. Really interesting because then that is such a statement on how brands will need to be actively engaged with that type of activity that can no longer just dictate from on high. That's right. And it can be really, really positive or they can be completely left out of the loop. That's absolutely right. And you think about the bad and again, nothing is ever really different. In marketing, in sales, we're still trying to go back to replicating that experience where you go to the corner store to ask if you want the usual and you're like, they get me. And so that hasn't changed. We've just been trying to do it with larger groups of people with bigger influence. And it used to be right. Somebody that likes your business tells 10. Somebody that hates it tells a thousand. Now they can tell a hundred thousand. That's right. So that still goes on at a bigger scale and brands will try to do the same thing where they try to build loyalty with customers. They try to communicate their values with customers through technology. All right, TK, well thank you for taking time out of your busy day and your global travels to take a few minutes with us here at theCUBE. Yeah, awesome. Really appreciate it. Absolutely. All right, he's TK from Arquetto. I'm Jeff Frick. You're watching theCUBE. We'll see you next time. Thanks for watching.


Polyaniline-capped mesoporous carbon nanosheets were developed using a vapor deposition polymerization process. This process allowed for the creation of highly conductive and porous materials which can be used for energy storage applications such as supercapacitors. The material was found to have excellent electrochemical properties, including a high capacitance and rate capability. These properties make it ideal for use in energy storage devices such as supercapacitors. This article was authored by Junchul No, Sukjiko, and Changmin Yoon.


My name is Colonel Matt Palma. I am the commanding officer of the Recruit Training Regiment. I am assisted in my duties by my senior enlisted leader, Sergeant Major Paul Egan. Together we've had the distinct pleasure of observing your new Marines throughout their training and we couldn't be more proud of what they've accomplished in a short period of time. That said, we know that our jobs would have been much more difficult had it not been for the solid moral foundation that you laid for them back at home. Moreover, the love and support that you provided for them throughout their training has been absolutely critical to their success. We want to thank you for that love and support and you're going to need to continue to provide it as they continue on in their training. There's two other groups that I'd like to recognize today. First, if you've served in any branch of the armed forces, whether under the watchful eye of peace or during the time of war, we want to thank you for your service. That service has served as an example for all of us and especially for the Marines of Delta Company. Next, I'd like to recognize the officers and drill instructors that proudly wear these red t-shirts. They are the Marines of Delta Company. Had it not been for their hard work and dedication, the transformation from Recruit to Marine wouldn't even be possible. Do you know that there's been a drill instructor with your Marine every day and night since they stepped on our famous yellow footprints? That sort of dedication doesn't come without great sacrifice. Their young families have endured long periods of time away from their Marine for the benefit of your Marine. So I'd like to take this opportunity to publicly thank the officers, drill instructors, and families of Delta Company for a job well done, well done Delta Company and congratulations. Now, speaking of families, we know that great Marines come from great families and your new Marines are absolutely no different. Now like all Marines, we pride ourselves on being the most ready when our nation is the least ready. And during this current global pandemic, we have gone through extraordinary measures to make sure that your Marines are trained well and they are safe. Unfortunately, you can't be here for all of the events and normally you would be here for today's family day. However, I've gotten information that some of you are in possession of a golden ticket and will be able to join us for tomorrow's graduation. For those of you that can be here tomorrow, we look forward to celebrating that momentous occasion with you as your Marine graduates from recruit training here at MCRD San Diego. But for those of you that can't be with us, we want to thank you for your continued love and support. There's no doubt in my mind that they will share with you the incredible stories of their time here with us at Marine Corps Recruit Depot San Diego and the legendary sea stories of their drill instructors. But until then, continue to write, send packages and support them from afar. Your Marines like all Marines pride themselves on being the most ready when the nation is the least ready. And them continuing on in their training is what is required of them right now. We want to thank you for that continued support. We also want to let you know that your Marine Corps is always here and always ready and will remain Semper Fidelis. Good morning, ladies and gentlemen. My name is Gunnery Sartorris and I'm the Senior Drone instructor for 21,061 and these are your new Marines. Good morning, ladies and gentlemen. My name is Stassard McQuarno and he's Senior Drone instructor for 21,062 and these are your Marines. Good morning, ladies and gentlemen. My name is Stardor Rosado and I am the Senior Drone instructor for captain 1,063 and these are your new Marines. Good morning, ladies and gentlemen. My name is Stassard Canfield and these are your Fatum 10065 and these are your new Marines. Good morning, ladies and gentlemen. My name is Stars� Pork Smith and I am these senior crash equipment two 1,066 and these are your Marines. Good morning, ladies and gentlemen. My name is Senior Joe Center for platoon 1067 and these are your new Marines.


And we know this has created a lot of hardship for so many. This is trash. It's crippling a sector of our economy that's already limping. To persecute us as an industry based on five or six weeks of spiking cases that probably have very little to do with outdoor dining is just crazy. On November 22, Los Angeles became the only county in America to ban outdoor dining this winter for a minimum of three weeks. This order could put out of business many California restaurants that were barely hanging on. Some of which recently invested in retrofitting for exclusively outdoor dining. The worst part, according to critics, is that the public health agency issuing the order has provided no concrete evidence that outdoor dining is a significant source of COVID spread. I personally feel like we're being punished. Cat Turner is a chef and partner at Highly Likely Cafe in the West Adams neighborhood of Los Angeles. The data to support that COVID is being spread through outdoor dining, I think it's extremely flimsy. I just don't understand the agenda that's being pushed.  This is how we're going to help businesses. This is how we're going to help you get through this period because they knew it was coming. But where's the planning? Where's the foresight? David Combes is the CEO of Botanical Group, which owns two restaurants in West Hollywood, including EP and LP, which shifted all of its business to outdoor rooftop dining. We've spent a considerable amount of money on our additional investments being in the hundreds of thousands of dollars from additional staffing required, security required to manage patrons and make sure there's distancing applied, barriers and sanitizers. Health department and visitors to check for compliance. I'm happy to say that we've sailed through with flying colors. It's certainly made our life challenging and profitability an impossibility. LA County's Department of Public Health issued the order the weekend before Thanksgiving, pointing to 108% increase in case numbers and rising hospitalizations as rationale for the renewed restrictions. Gathering with people you do not live with can increase the chances of getting or spreading COVID-19. LA Public Health Director Barbara Ferrer held an online press conference on November 23rd to discuss the order and estimates from the county's contact tracing that 10 to 15% of COVID transmissions are linked to dining experiences. Though she hasn't clarified how many of those transmissions were attributed to outdoor dining at restaurants and declined to provide the underlying data when pressed by reporters. Has there been a noted outbreak that has come from people dining outside? People are eating and drinking and they're not wearing their face coverings for the vast majority of time that they're there. When they're gathered with people who are not in their household, there just ends up being a significant amount of risk associated. I think the question, Anne, I don't know that you answered it, and she wanted to know a number of outbreaks as a result of restaurants. Well, I don't have those numbers in front of me, but I will be happy to, you know, work with our communications team and we'll get those numbers. The health department didn't respond to reasons follow-up requests for those numbers and the county's online data portal identifies only 16 restaurants as outbreak sites, most of them fast food restaurants involving only employees, not outdoor diners. And restaurants don't make the county's top five list of COVID exposure sites. The county's also found that the vast majority of restaurants do comply with its health orders and that cases fell through the summer, even as outdoor dining was allowed. Given that you haven't identified an actual source of an outbreak being an outdoor dining, how do you rationalize the closure and how do you expect to measure whether it actually is accomplishing what you're hoping to accomplish? We know that places where people are gathering without wearing their face coverings are places where transmission is easiest and most likely. But we will be, you know, as always we'll watch our data.  So it feels like we are being disadvantaged by a lack of process from the LA county. And now, you know, for political optics, it's, you know, the requirement for them to do something is, well, the first thing we're going to do is we're going to shut down restaurants and bars.  I think people are still going to want to get together. And now they're going to do it inside at other people's homes instead of meeting outside at a restaurant to have dinner. And now that it's colder outside, they're not going to want to sit in the backyard. They're going to sit in the living room. The Los Angeles County Board of Supervisors voted three to two to uphold the health department's order. One restaurant owner has already filed suit against the county. Turner says she worries about the unintended consequences of an indefinite shutdown of one of the only relatively safe places that people in Los Angeles can gather. With the very fabric of our mental health as a community kind of hanging in the wires and the financial stability of us as a business and the livelihood, the literal survival of my team gets completely irresponsible to shut down outdoor dining. Like this is, like what we have here is good for the community and it's good for the economy and it's good for our staff and we're doing it safely. Like this is not dangerous.


Hey guys, I'm so pumped right now Congratulations to the Toronto Raptors Everyone that is cheering for the Toronto Raptors the Toronto Raptors have won game five of the Eastern Conference finals in Milwaukee Which means the Toronto Raptors are one game away from history The Toronto Raptors are one game away from going to the NBA finals It feels like a dream. It doesn't even feel real Shout out to Fred Van Fleet for having the game of his life seven three-pointers in game five Seven three-pointers by Fred Van Fleet in game five Fred Van Fleet was the game changer and Mad respect to Kauai Leonard the real MVP of this year's playoffs 35 points in game five in Milwaukee. I am Mind-boggled right now. Toronto was down by 10 points in the third quarter. I thought it was over Not with this team Now what Nick nurses the coach? No, no, no These guys clawed back these guys fought back and these Toronto Raptors they found a way to win on The biggest stage the Eastern Conference finals in Milwaukee down 10 points They came back and they ended up winning by six in Milwaukee I Am making a prediction this series is over Toronto wins it in six on Saturday in Toronto in front of the best fans in the NBA We the North let's go Raptors. Congratulations Kauai Leonard congratulations Fred Van Fleet on having a breakthrough game you deserve it and Raptors just let it fly on Saturday boys Be yourself play your game. You've got Milwaukee mentally beat. You've already beat the mentally Just do what you got to do and this is history in the making Toronto Raptors win game five of the Eastern Conference finals beating Milwaukee 105 to 99 making history Toronto has never gone past game six of the Eastern Conference finals if they lose game six there will be a game seven But let's not lose game six. Let's win game six. Let's take care of business and let's go to the MBA finals for the first time in history I might even livestream the game on Saturday and do my commentary because that will be a record-breaking day For fans of the Toronto Raptors, I don't believe anybody in Toronto believe that this team would go to the MBA finals And now we are one game away from a history I don't think anybody thought this was gonna happen when they went down two games to nothing They've now won three games in a row and the Toronto Raptors are on their way to history. I Say they win game six. I think they have figured Milwaukee out. I think Toronto's got a more veteran team They're going back home. They've got all the momentum This series is over, baby Bring out the salami and cheese This series is over. You heard it here first from your boy rich Toronto Raptors win game five. They're up three games to two one game away from history And my prediction is they win game six in Toronto on Saturday. We the North Let's bring it home boys. Your boy rich from Mr. TV live and I'm out


If you Essentially the if your ecosystem has been growing at a very steady pace in the last couple of years But if you look at Some of these ether nodes websites which track the number of full nodes You'll see that that one is kind of constant or maybe even decreasing and why is that? Well first up because running a full note sucks, but and even though we are trying to solve that The issue is that people will always prefer running a light client opposed running a full client or running Infura opposed running a light client or even just using a restful API versus actually connecting to Infura and This is kind of fine People are kind of more or less aware of the implication security wise that okay if use your light client And the security is not the same if you use infrared and you kind of trust them You can maybe make a few proofs But you still trust them and if use something like ethers can then you know that you cannot trust them But yeah, you kind of trust them So people can make balanced decisions. However, one thing that people don't really Talk much about is what happens for example to metadata What happens when you actually go from running a full node down to running an restful service and how that actually Changes the behaviors or the traits that you leave behind you And that's exactly what I would like to talk about a bit in this talk Specifically, let's start with web 2.0 interfaces Now my talk is relevant for almost any depth that uses a Restful service as a background the reason I'm picking ethers can is not to pick on them rather because it's everybody knows what ethers can is How ethers can works? So what is ethers can just a quit in a two-word summary basically that allows you to check your balances your tokens transactions Events, etc. And apart from that it also allows you to comment on certain accounts if you like Now this is the surface. What happens behind the scenes? Well, whenever you for example, you want to check your balance on ethers can you Try to load the ethers can website which goes through cloud for your because cloud for there is ethers can accelerator Ethers can returns the balance and everything plus it also returns a tracker code for Google Analytics plus the embedded discuss forum and This might sign sound like a really nice design really elegant not too many external things included But if we start digging a bit into the HTTP protocol, we'll see a few surprises Notably HTTP has a concept of refer every time you visit a web page from another web page You get a tiny extra header saying that you came from this website The same happens if you embed something every time you embed an iFrame into your own little Website that iFrame will get a ping that you were actually coming from another website And why is this bad? Well, when you actually load for example in this page, it's a ethers can dot IO slash address slash Zero X whatever When you load that Google Analytics will actually have a ping that you this particular IP address loaded that particular ethereum address Similarly discuss also gets a similar ping that this IP address loaded that particular ethereum address and is that bad Well, if we explore what discuss loads, things start to get a bit weird Particularly discuss has three types of integrations has social logins to Facebook Google and Twitter Which means that discuss actually reveals the IP to a theorem address mapping to Facebook Twitter and Google plus And it also has these other weird trackers kind of like people market AI Mine mining market and all kinds of weird I can't read this bit tiny here, but you get the picture So it it loads a lot of trackers and not only that but it also loads a lot of I think discuss has 11 integrations with YouTube female and all kinds of other services and This is an issue because you are essentially associating your IP to Ethereum address mapping and you're revealing that to a whole lot of external services And again, this is not to pick on ethers can here any depth is vulnerable to the same thing It's just a bit clear to use with ethers can And okay now we know that there's a problem, but what can we do to actually fix it? So one of the possibilities is well first of all if you're a provider any kind of depth or service provider First up do not integrate legacy web 2.0 services and this might sound like a no-brainer, but If you think about it in ethers can ethers can has this possibility to comment on accounts Is that genuinely a useful feature for a block explorer? But if you look through the comments, it's pretty noisy. It's pretty spammy. There are a few scams going on and off So it's not not the best feature So maybe it would be worth to cut it out the second thing is that if you Even if you don't integrate external services or try to keep it to the minimum You should always wonder whether it is worthwhile to reveal identifying information in the URL You should always consider that Anyone can access the URL Let's suppose any if anyone can access the IP to URL mapping Do you want your customers data to be leaked that way or not? Maybe for a block explorer, maybe this is cannot be Circumvented but for another that maybe it should be and last of last but not least Please do use HTTP refer policy restrictions I for example ethers can use as a policy whereby HTTPS to HTTP downgrades Forbid the referral header from being forwarded. There are much more stricter policies, which actually forbid everything being forwarded Okay, we can do that and ethers can is actually they are trying to fix these issues Original ethers can integrated an external ad network that they replaced an internal with an internal one originally now currently They are using Google Analytics, but they want to replace that so they are really open to fixing issues however, the issue is that Providers fixing it is not really enough because we can get ethers can to fix it But can we get random depth number 2000 to fix it? Probably not so users need to protect themselves, too And the obvious choices here are browser extensions that block all kinds of trackers or if you're on a mobile device You could for example use a brave browser But these can only block so many things For example, if I have YouTube integrated know none of the extensions or browsers will block YouTube Which gets us to the second point that let's suppose we manage to block all the external services even YouTube, let's suppose we Handle if HTTP refers correctly and everything even then we have this fairly complex Flow of information whereby whenever we want to access anything related to our data Either via metamask a DAP or via my crypto or my ether wallet We still reach out to ethers can or infura or cloudflare in between and what this means is that ethers can infura and cloudflare still have access to the exact same information the exact same IP address to Ethereum account mappings now you may trust them or you may not trust them that is up to you it's an issue and Unfortunately, the only current solution that you can do is if you use an Anonymizer service kind of like Tor which is willing to hide your IP address behind a mixing network But kind of that's your best chance currently so Bottom line is using restful services is not the best thing so and if you think now my My conclusion would be to please use light clients Yeah, that's going to get even more messy So Let's dig into light kinds. Let's forget the rest of services altogether all kinds of depths and web stuff Light clients supposed to be the the way to access Ethereum so that you don't have to run a full node You can just run this really nice little thing, which is essentially kind of feels like a full node just it's not and It has actually two Significant problems. One of them is in the discovery protocol I'm not sure how many of you are aware of how the discovery protocol discovery layer works in Ethereum or In peer-to-peer networks in general, but in short you have a few boot nodes Hard-coded into the client when you boot up your node It reaches out to those few seed nodes gets a whole bunch of peers in the network and then boom you're connected Now in reality what happens under the hood is that these boot nodes aren't some magical special databases that track the entire network Rather they the network itself boot nodes included and all the other peers included they maintain So-called routing table on cadmlia DHT, which is kind of a fancy way of putting that everyone knows Little piece about the network So nobody knows the entire network, but we know little pieces of it and if you reach out to enough of them then eventually you can discover and you can You can discover enough nodes to have good connections and And have a stable stable connectivity. That's essentially the issue here is that in order to do that so Essentially a routing table requires to be able to tell that this This particular machine is at this particular IP address. That's what the routing table does The problem is what happens if My IP address is changing what happens if I have a laptop and not I'm not running ethereum on my home server Rather on my laptop and I keep connecting to the ethereum network from all over the world So if I for example go last month, I was in San Francisco last week I was in Berlin now I'm in Prague next week I'll be in I don't know London the month afterwards in Shanghai and I keep connecting to the ethereum network via light client Be that the mobile device be that laptop or whatever Or I can even run a full node on my laptop and do the same thing. That's completely equivalent What the result will be is that every time I connect to the network I am actually revealing to the network that this machine which last week was in Berlin this week is in Prague and Next month I will reveal that this machine which last month was in Prague. This month is in Shanghai and this is an issue Because this is public information so anyone in the ethereum network can at any moment in time see Where certain IDs are and not only that but if you are willing to do this for example every day just try to Scan the network every day then actually you can create an extremely accurate history of where each individual Ethereum node was moving over time and just nicely plotted on the world map now I'm not sure most people here would be comfortable having their three years of history usage mapped out on a world map But how can we solve this? Again, it's not an obvious solution one of the simplest thing is that as I said the main vulnerability is that Machines have a fixed IP address assigned to them And if you move the machine around then that ID ID is essentially the global tracker So we kind of made a cookie tracking on top of the discovery protocol So the obvious solution let's get rid of the IDs So just bin it now we cannot really bin it because it's part of the ethereum protocol But what we can do is make it a firmware all so that every time we restart the machine We get a new IP and when you start a new ID and this Has certain implications one of the implications that obviously if I'm running a boot node the ID cannot change So boot nodes need to have special functionality whereby the ID remains the same What happens however if I run a full node and I just restarted I did that update I restarted it Normally if the ID changes, that's not such a big problem in practice last minute we told in the network that This IP address belongs to a certain ID and now we're telling conflicting information and currently the theorem Discovery protocol cannot handle that so if you keep sending in that you restart your machine four times And you're sending in four completely conflicting information into a discovery protocol Then the discovery protocol will just go haywire and you will have a very hard time to this to connect to the network Yes, eventually maybe five minutes ten minutes. Everything will settle down But it is an issue and last but not least if we actually do the same thing with light clients then We're breaking projects that rely on this behavior. For example, one of them is VIP node and They are essentially trying to incentivize running full nodes by providing light servers for payment and then light clients can pay a bit and Then they get the light server services The issue here is that the authentication mechanism they use is that their payment is associated with their node ID So take away their node ID and we just blew up the VIP node business model and This is I'm not saying that this is cannot be solved What I'm trying to say here is that these really trivial issues and trivial fixes can have very very heavy implications on certain players in the network and Often we as client developers don't want to ruin people's days and people's projects Anyway, so that's the discovery. It is an interesting interesting problem to solve now if we go further deep into the light clients then How do light clients work? Let's suppose we forget about discovery. Let's suppose we somehow fix discovery Well, I clients essentially they connect with full nodes full servers Which actually have all the blocks and instead of downloading the blocks and processing them They are just randomly picking the block headers Which are kind of is a nice enough proof that the chain is valid But they do not download the state and then when we start missed or any other depth that we really care about then The light client will actually fetch the balance for example if I have three accounts in mist Then every time a new block arrives mist will actually fetch those balances for those three Accounts I care about and again, this seems like completely logical This is the most optimal way to reduce latency reduce bandwidth and just make all the traffic useful except Now all of a sudden the light server knows that I am This IP address is interested in that particular account. Oh And one more I think I want a bit ahead so two more things that I wanted to say about how the light clients work So one of them was that they are obviously synchronizing header and then retrieving data on demand only interesting data Another really interesting aspect of the light client that I think apart from protocol developers Most people are unaware of is that light clients cannot verify the state So they are verifying the proof of work, but they blindly trust that so every time you get a new block You just assume if the proof of work is valid then whatever state that block is associated with will be valid and this works because if you have a good connectivity to the network and You have many people sending you blocks then it's really hard for somebody to forge a block because yeah They could forge a block, but the entire the network the rest of the network won't accept it So after this after a few more blocks it will just get reorged out of your chain So nobody can really keep attacking you as long as your connectivity is valid So What happens? Yeah, I went a bit previously with the head but essentially with the light clients and on-demand retrieval The issue is that whenever if I have misconnected and it every Whenever I have an updated block it keeps requesting the same balance for the same account over and over and over and over again Then light servers will be able to create a statistically map out that this particular IP address is interested in one particular address And that's a problem because we back get we got back to the exact same issue and exact same behavior that we had with the discovery protocol Only now we don't have a Map a world map of moving IDs now We have a world map of moving Ethereum addresses and again Similarly to the discovery protocol this can be done exactly the same way publicly by everyone It's a bit more expensive because you need to run a light server. So at least you're helping the network Please if you want to attack it and do this and not the other one So how can how can we solve this and again? It's a it's a hard Question to answer because it's not it's kind of this is how the protocol was meant to be this is the optimization so we're trying to somehow obfuscate the optimization and One of them is again similarly to how we try to hide our IP address from ether scan or from centralized the restful services We can try to do the same thing and maybe run light clients up over Tor but What happens if I have an embedded device? So about two weeks ago not sorry two years ago We already had Raspberry Pi zeros as light clients on main net Somebody even had these little Intel embedded chips put on main net and they were really happy that they could They can use the light client But these devices aren't really compatible with Tor so Tor has a huge overhead Cryptographic overhead That's one problem. The other problem is that if we start adding this these IP mixers into the soup and trying to just create Trying to just tunnel the light client traffic all over the place the issue is that you will have connectivity issues So again, maybe you will find less peers Maybe the latency will go up the bandwidth will go down you will keep dropping peers But the issue here is that as I said previously light clients depend on relatively good connectivity if you have an obfuscation layer that essentially kills your connectivity then all of a sudden you Kind of raise your vulnerability against these kinds of eclipse attacks. So again, although It seems that there would be a simple enough solution in practice. It's not so trivial so with that said I Think this was the first talk that I did where I kind of raised more questions and talks than solutions but I still I figure that I would like I would like to Formulate a few takeaways for for you just so that you don't don't leave with with the concept that okay theorem sucks And essentially the the three things that I would really like to highlight as as summary of this talk is that Although people don't feel like full nodes full nodes are actually the best Anonymizers in the theorem ecosystem if you are running a full node then nobody knows what data you're interested in You can poke in whatever contract you want You can check your balance as many times per second as you want and nobody from the outside will know that you're actually doing it Secondly Privacy on Ethereum is bad really really bad And that but this doesn't mean that it's an impossible task to solve So there have been existing projects at least two major ones the tour network the onion routing network I mean and I2p and both these networks try to solve this exact problem of how to anonymize data So that you don't reveal too much about yourself Now I'm not saying that we should all of a sudden put a theorem on top of these networks These networks have a very very broad scope scope, and it might be too much But nonetheless there have been 20 years of research going it going into how to do this properly So let's try to at least learn from their their results and try to fix it and Last but not least I've seen it many times in the community And I see it many times even with myself that as a developer it's all too easy to just say that while the users are doing it wrong and for example, it would be nice to say that well just you store figure it out and That's a problem because most users don't know what Tori's and most users who probably never in their lives you store even though that would be the obvious solution and it's kind of up us up to us to as Dapp and platform developers to figure it out and to fix it and We don't really want to fix it to protect the users from Not only from external attacks. I think it's really important to also highlight that we want to protect users from ourselves too because I Just to give you a really nice example. I don't think Facebook was created to gather user data It wasn't created to to abuse elections. That one just kind of happened when there was too much So with that, I'd like to conclude my talk. So thank you very much And I guess we have a few Possible questions every a few minutes for questions if I may has any Hey, could you talk more about helpful nodes are the most powerful anonymizers the network with that takeaway So essentially I All these metadata leaks are possible because you are doing something in you're optimizing your traffic in the network The only way to optimize your traffic is to request only data that interest you So every time you are only requesting data that interests you it means that the network itself knows that that particular Data for some reason is interesting for that particular IP address and this thing you can completely hide with a full node Because a full node essentially gets everything Yes, so that's again another interesting question that while we are just reading the chain This completely solves it a full node, but when we are trying to transact with the chain then Then if for example somebody manages if I'm Let's say I run a thousand full nodes and I start monitoring where certain transactions are coming from then that can be used to Eventually statistically hone in on a certain IP address that this IP address is usually originating some I some transaction and Here here my solution as I think for example IP FS is also looking into exactly the same problem and Their solution or let's suppose they're their ideas are all revolve around the I2P protocol because it's essentially a message-based protocol that does Tries to somehow mix the transaction a bit in the network before popping it out somewhere and as far as I know Monero does the same thing for the same reasons So that's that's possibly that's again something that many people before us did and people are doing concurrently with us So it's not an unsolvable research problem. It's just an engineering problem that we have to pay attention to Thanks for your talk. It was really good I think probably most people in this room have done all the bad things that you mentioned Throughout the talk. So is there anything you recommend aside from running a full node to either like go forward or Perhaps anonymize things with these services more Yeah Well, I guess my recommendation I can only recommend what I already recommended within the within the slides that If you are running if you are accessing block explorers I think browser extensions are the single most important thing if you if you are really paranoid then tour network is also an essential thing So that with it with the tour network. You can completely protect yourself against Brow typical browser based that Daps from tracking you if you if you are actually willing to run a light client That's a hard problem. That's up to the client developers Would you recommend us like general rule to? Regularly clean out the node key So if as long as your server is stable the note key is fine. I mean Yeah, so if you are on the laptop I think that that would be the first no-brainer solution that we have to do is we have to keep every so for example If you run a light client every time you run a light client you we should reset the note because we should use a formal note keys Even even better. I would suggest that maybe even for full nodes We can use a formal note keys and just If we restart them, yeah, maybe it will have a bit harder time connecting to the network for the first couple minutes So I think apart from boot knows no nothing in the network really requires stable keys Okay, can we please another round of applause for Peter? Thank you very much