There we go. Perfect. So this is the OGM check-in call for Thursday, September 24th, 2020. Thank you for joining us. I'm just going to lead off the check-ins today just because a couple things are on my mind. One of them is Sunday night. It starts a virtual conference posted out of Romania at Unfinished.ro. A few of you have signed up for it. They've made the sign-ups intentionally wordy because historically this conference has been free to attend but apply to attend and they really wanted the attendees to be all-in. It was held in sort of a really cool castle venue in Romania and Bucharest and so they've preserved the sort of lengthy application even though in virtual conferences everybody kind of sort of skips in and skips out. They did that intentionally because they'd like participants to invest their time somewhat. But if you mention OGM or my name in the who set you, they will automatically accept you into the event and then yesterday we had a walk-through for their platform which they're they're using a new platform and in this day of in this time of pandemics and lockdown some of you've probably used Hopin at the XO world people used Hopin.to.  I'll put a link in fact to the platforms I've seen for large-scale virtual events that are not held in zooms or that are wrapped around zooms like Kiko Chat like Lucas Chiaffi's Kiko Chat. Anyway, this one is a little company that's built something called FlowOS that is actually quite intriguing and pretty and one of it one of its features is and I don't know that I have a screen cap I should have at least on a screen cap yesterday but one of its features is that on the left it shows you can slide in and see the agenda of the event and you can kind of see time time going through the event so that as you as you end up at things you can choose where to go and what to do They also have a map of what used to be the floor Sort of a perspective view of the floor of the old venue So they've preserved those names. So there's a place where you can go have meals There's a place where you can go just meet and mingle. There's a main hall other sorts of things And that's how you kind of get around They then have everybody's avatars are kind of in the little circular vignettes But the vignettes, I believe show up as people are sort of participating in conversations in an interesting way and in fact April just did a TED circle using a platform called circles That was I think sort of in the same general genre of Slut more into sort of more intimate kind of online platform is trying to make these things work well together And so if you go to flow OS calm you won't see very much if you go to unfinished flow OS calm That's where excuse me the conference will be hosted, but They're not you know sending registrations until over the weekend I think it's the thing the thing opens up over the weekend with some celebrations and they're doing kind of By Romanian time breakfast lunch and dinner sessions That's how they're breaking out the days over a week and so the dinner sessions match well to you know, West Coast time zone So my my speech is 9 a.m. Pacific on Monday, that's when they're presenting my talk and then I do a live Q&A But it's a it's the whole thing has been really kind of interesting and the people are young and super smart And I think they're not sleeping much right now. They haven't been sleeping much for a month Building this thing up. So that's one thing that's kind of on my mind that I just want to report and I'm The other thing that's on my mind. Unfortunately is that my I got a call yesterday that my mom needs to move from assisted living to memory care And any of you who have elders in care or anything like that? may understand some of those implications, but that hit me really hard because My mom still knows who I am and what's going on, but she's really losing losing the program and Losing her memory as we sit here. Thanks Scott Losing her memory and ability to use words as we sit here and talk about shared memory collective sense-making and all that so the There's there's ironies there and a bunch of stuff going on and it also means You know, what little stuff from my growing up is still kind of with mom And that has to get paired back even more and mom is not going to like to move etc. So that's that's weighing heavily on my On my heart And with that, let's go around and sort of the usual Method of going from the bottom up in my grid view Which means Judy mark and mark so first mark Tebow than mark Drexler So Judy if you want to lead us off Well busy week seems like all of my non-profit work is converging on timelines That have consumed a fair bit of my energy, but my primary emphasis really is on virtual education and Including in that the unschooling principles And we've been working on that some in the breakout group with Charles and Lauren I Found a bunch of resources from the American Chemical Society that kind of stepped up to the plate put together a lot of virtual stuff for K-12 with cartoons and Very age-appropriate things that I was pleasantly surprised to discover they've done in the last six months so I've passed that on to the group and I'm still trying to understand the dynamics of Efforts to include Social development and emotional development in remote learning curricula and it isn't a curricula per se but it's a process and I'm thinking that what we need are more pilot groups where children interact in subsets of a group Rather than as a listener to a teacher But I'm not finding working models of those just yet Working models for virtual life or working models in general I'm not finding examples of it having been put to use with school-age children in a breakout room sort of Mode and I don't know exactly how you do creative play There's some I Found a link on your website, and I don't have it in front of me. I'll come back with it later But it's a sort of a an Italian system for children's learning Reggio Emilia. Yeah. Yeah, and I can't tell whether that's really in good repute or not For us, I know yes, okay good because the the person I'm working with at the White Bear Arts Center who is our Education and outreach director is involved with white bear and white bear actually is trying to implement social and emotional development But I don't know where they're starting So I'm trying on I'm on a learning curve trying to find out what is happening that I can get my fingers on Or not not to manipulate but to know what's actually happening at the working level And how to bring that back into the collective intelligence mode Love that and I think we probably have a lot of resources to help you here and Lauren and Charles I've been hosting conversations on this topic, but anybody who wants to drop things in the chat, please do and I just posted a link to regio Emilia in my brain for you and Love love that we should come back to it because we need to do more on on on learning together Well, there's there's two pieces. I think there's the actual process of learning and the enablement of education not educate I'm almost like not liking the word education these days But the the inquisitive learning of children and adults sort of lifelong learning is more what I'm after but how do you Enable it at different ages of life for people who may or may not have been comfortable with it is a somewhat sociological issue But just also wanting to try to find things that I can use in the community Not trying to reach too far But get to working practices There are and there are insane Amounts of content community material everything experts online Haven't through what one of the amazing things to me through lockdown is how little of that has been organized nicely for For use for for going through for for rethinking how we learn so more power to what you guys are doing and People out etc Thank You Judy very long. I'm sorry But super interesting and I think it has like lots of hooks into what we care about Mark Tebow then Mark Drexler and then Hank Yeah, good morning everyone. I'm working on I'm really sorry to hear that Jerry, but thank you I've been on that road before it's Yeah, I've been been working on forming a Collective With the hope that Being different talents together people with experience in working on indigenous issues will get us a better sense of How to be more efficient In what we do So a lot of what we've been talking about here and also Charles Gatherings But collective intelligence is makes a lot of sense. So Moving forward with that Thank You mark one a really important Thing on my way to list of important things is how to blend the best of the old with the best of the new Yeah Meaning meeting how do we pick from the best of indigenous ways of knowing and marry them to the best of this like crazy insane information environment we have which has been hijacked by By business models that are not helpful, but there's like 500 really good conversations there But I think there's a lot to do in that space So thank you and that has been and that has been my the focus of the last eight years. I call it Intercultural regenerative systems inter Intercultural intercultural regenerative systems. Thank you. Yeah taking taking from Intercultural health models Which were the only ones that really look at that intercultural aspect Thank you. Thank you. So mark Hank Kevin Good morning. I Have to admit I woke up at five this morning to a medium a piece on medium laying out for plausible scenarios for us civil war after the Election and can you post it to the I'll post it and and it and for me It's just sort of a tipping point in terms of actually starting to take seriously these Scenarios and so it's just sort of an overwhelming thought that I'm having trouble getting past Last week was when I started hitting things like that like the the red mirage scenario and so forth And I've been collecting them up putting them in my brain, etc. They're pretty Pretty frightening. So Thank You mark Hank Kevin Van Julian Yeah, good morning everybody. I think I So I've kind of been starting to dig or not starting to dig But I had a very similar kind of article pass in front of my face a couple days ago, too And I've been you know kind of digging into that, you know, otherwise Still just reading about, you know, I think a lot of just like Earlier Kind of writings about how all the system is intended to work and the principles on which it's founded And in my private time, which has been it's just been kind of interesting to try and marry You know where things started and you know where intentions can go so That's kind of where I'm at Thank you Kevin Julian Pete Kevin you're muted Alas, all right. There we go. Yeah, much better. Hello. Yes. Yeah, you know, I've been working on a couple projects I mentioned the church based credit union in the local equity fund for small business preservation And I realized I needed a peer group. So I formed one called a neighborhood economics cohort We've got seven folks who are doing, you know kind of an economy of interconnectedness versus a kind of economy of rugged individualism Remaining for our first Every other week deep dive and at 1115 and then a weekly check-in tomorrow And it's a lot of fun for me because I'm I've enough things to focus on that You know, a lot of times my energy kind of swamps a single project The portfolio Makes makes it easier for the folks I'm working on since I'm working on six or seven other projects two of which I'm deeply engaged in So anyway, I'm I'm having fun with it I mean my stuff works if the shit hits the fan better. So, you know, that's the stuff I'm building.  Is it open membership? Would you like other people to join you? Yeah, if you are working on some project like that and then you have at least a group going together And you know what problem you're working on Yeah, you know, yes, I would be glad to talk about it. So people should email you. Yeah, please Kevin Doyle Jones at gmail.com Kevin Doyle Jones one at gmail.com one who else got the not one Well, it was me, but I couldn't figure out how to get back and are you kidding me? Well, yeah, but yeah, I've kept it because I built software Successfully three times, but I build it for people like me. You can't figure out gmail and that's that one is a reminder of who I'm building for Thank you very much that was great An iconic failure that travels it with every email. It's just a reminder. Perfect. So Julian Pete Lauren Well, I have to wonder when is Kevin Jones to coming up As soon as he can't get into one So that was gonna say that today session had better be good because I was dreaming about playing about to Being able to play with a puppy when the alarm went off. So oh, man Better be good. All right I've mentioned that I'm working on a database of the ACMC graph The litany for the from last 50 years and this week I imported their The tape the data tables that describe the art show that they've had for the last 40 years And this is part of my quest to treat this visual information in a visual way Despite import I mean from their standard databases into Neo4j So now I have a graph database of this material and then that I can import that into my 3d visualizer So it's forming a complete loop of visually managing visual information and as I was doing this I realized because there's semantic analysis being done There's a lot of scientists who've put art show who've made art show entries and this is going to eventually lead to the semantic question Is it art? But I hope I don't have to deal with that part of it Is that artists always one of these profound questions? Thank you, that's great Pete Lauren Scott Good morning everybody Been working on various stuff one of the things that say a project tracker for a project dashboard for nonprofit I'm working with And I kind of genericized it and I'm gonna write it up and so It's simple and small, but it's kind of cute. So I'm looking forward to sharing that The other thing I'm excited about right now And I'm not sure exactly why but it is it it came upon me. I Got into secure Scuttlebutt Which is a distributed chat ish system And I think anybody who's interested in decentralized systems should be on Secure Scuttlebutt, so I will be sharing more about why and how In I don't know the next few days That sounds great. Thank you. And I think the whole notion of distributed apps distributed systems secure distributed You know trustworthy distributed all those things are really core to some of what we need under the hood here, so Happy to learn more and if you ever wanted to do like a If any subset of us wanted to do a briefing back to the group That topic that would be really useful. I think for everybody Lauren Scott Joseph There now you're unmuted Except we can't hear you No, really now we hear you. Oh, okay Yeah, so I'm up to my years and family stuff and we'll be probably for the next month or so but after after Emerging from the fog of all these changes that are going on in my family household But you know a Charles and I have really wanted to get super serious with the fundraising and We were thinking of using this concept we've been developing called Hash verses and hash ends to organize kind of a multi group fund raiser Where we actually like try to coordinate getting grants and using our kind of multiple entities Whether those are nonprofits and the US we have one entities in Europe and organizing these different concepts that are floating around and ideas and projects and stuff like that and because we we're going through a whole database of US nonprofit grants So we just think that by the time, you know the the amount of energy it takes to go through the calendar and to do the process of Kind of doing that for us We could be doing that for other people as well and we'd like to kind of get together with the Europeans Because that's another pool of money that we could tap into for like Americans who don't have a European entity So we're not going to do that right away, but yeah in a month or so we'd really like to Get a lot more serious with that and really start writing a lot of grants and stuff like that That's lovely. That's lovely. Thank you One thing I discovered recently is that it's and and it runs contrary to what I'd like to do with OGM But it's useful to have a 501 C3 in the US because a lot of grants require that kind of structure for grant making Etc. Etc. And I'm just wondering if people in if people in OGM have a C3 That could be used as a as a docking mechanism or as a host for this. Go ahead Charles That's us Is a New York State 501 C3. Oh cool. I did not know that Awesome more on that mean we may not only be asked, but we it's available as a vehicle. Yeah Scott Charles, sorry Scott Joseph then Charles Hi everyone Couple things so Jerry I started to use your slash now as a as a way to I Keep a prioritized list of things I'm working on but this I feel is more public It's like it's the public face of that It's saying okay if anywhere to ask me what am I working on now? And that's that's the list that I want to keep called because my list is too big and too scattered and too Unfocused, but I'm finding that a useful thing to say somewhere to ask me This is the stuff I'm working on now at these things. I want to tell people so that's that's interesting Judith I put a couple of Links in the chat for you One was a book called thinking at every desk, which I am a big fan of It's lots and lots of Real-life examples of working with classrooms and teaching thinking Skills to the students as as early as kindergarten So these are very very simple concepts and they're finding that once they learn these skills They can apply them to different and new subjects and use the same tools The second thing was about Design thinking breakout groups so in the design thinking process, which is an empathy based process That I put a little video in there that was the best example I found of a woman who put together This is how you organize a remote design thinking workshop and there's a section in there about breakout groups But it's just a it's a nice piece overall But I think that that's that's an area where Where they might be a few steps ahead of everyone else Because their meetings are all collaborative and empathy based and so that might be a useful resource that's spotted for me Thank you so much Scott. I'd Kevin quickly you have your hand up Yeah on school, we've got a couple of homeschooling pods around our farm on and next I was talking to my 14-year-old grandson about how it went How it's gone and he said, you know Karen interviews. Yeah, but you know, there's a lot of different parents around at different times now that are doing things When that was just an interesting comment that parents are like The parent who's good at math is suddenly jumping in along with the teacher and stuff like that. It's just it's a different It just seemed to me. That's it It feels a little bit like blending the best of the old and the best of the new Um So we have Joseph Charles Stacy Hi So the thing that's most that I've been most working on lately is this pure Godji handbook version for Proposal for a fellowship at New York Public Library and I've been sending out different drafts of that for comments I haven't gotten that many comments back But I've gotten some interesting discussions going in parallel about just kind of what is pure Godji How does it work? And that's been helpful I did get some comments back from a friend of mine who's got a book coming out with Bristol University Press on something like Trump and Spectacle which I can find the link put in the chat that might be interested for interesting for the people who hear our big fans of Donald Trump and all related topics So Yeah, I wanted to come along to this meeting just to see how you guys do it And I was particularly attracted to the theme of bootstrapping That Jerry put in there Interested to see how you guys are looking at and the reason I'm interested in it is I guess for those who don't know me I was at a startup incubator for like six months earlier this year And left without pitching for money Pitching for VC funding and with the strong advice that I should go off and bootstrap my Startup and so I'm not learning that that's like a thing and that some of the people I know Maybe know something about that so I'm interested in understanding how to bootstrap in a kind of Engel Bartian Informed way beyond just skimming some of his web pages. So people will have comments and thoughts on that I'm here to learn about that. I'm just like the state of the art in my little startup is we At one point decided for some arbitrary reason to do three meetings a week And we've sent you just decided to go back to one meeting a week kind of on the view that we don't have that much time Given we're all volunteers We shouldn't spend that much time in meetings and I guess that that provokes a kind of meta question for the people here, which is Yeah, our meetings a good use of time in general and when our meetings a good use of time given that we're in one right now But yeah, that's probably enough. I could Probably find a way to circulate this latest pure guide to handbook version four proposal publicly Well, it's just the PDF. I could put it in Put it in the chat. So if anyone wants to read it and comment those who are interested in education I guess one of my questions about that is is this actually relevant for right now? Or is it just kind of not I'm proposing to do some remixes with public domain Materials so in principle, it's no more relevant now than it ever has been but maybe maybe that's not a bad thing So I'm put the PDF in the chat and my mind you know, just Does that include specifically peer dodgy for children I think I mentioned it based on our latest interactions in the Kiko lab thing I mentioned it as a as a use case, but I'm not planning in this fellowship to deliver that and the other comment to make is It's for a fellowship that starts September 2021. So in any case Whatever happens before then will all be kind of groundwork For this fellowship, but I do mention that as a kind of one of the motivating things for the revisions Thank you, and just just to pin this for the bootstrap conversation Let's talk about pure dodgy handbook plus bootstrapping as a part of that conversation. So let's let's let's bring that in Charles Stacey class run from Zurich. It's a bit overcast But still pleasant temperatures Jerry just wanted to mention Also sorry to hear about your mom and my dad his whole career is as a kind of expert researcher in Dementia and Alzheimer's and has for the last few years also been stricken himself so I can Different perspectives on all that certainly compassion lots of emotions are heating up these days all around and sort of found myself in a in a mild storm in regard to like cross-pollinating and trying to Do the network weaving and stuff with with newsletters from a couple of Groups and it's it's actually been really great to kind of open up the discourse But there's you know so much potential that our collaboration sort of communication collaboration and a lot of contraindications as well In other news, I did some deep diving in my in my maps and repositories and folders even last night and just finding incredible stuff that is so rich for For us here and and what I start to call I don't know if this will stick but sister circles I did a little mini map of sister circles Just kind of the immediate ones that I'm part of and even you know co-founder of and it's already kind of overflowing So just trying to grab some sense out of that Another wonderful thing that some of us here caught the other night was interviewed with Audrey Tang From Harvard that was just amazing. I have the auto transcript that There's a few links. I'm gonna I'm gonna share when I just get my hands on them and That's probably plenty for now. I think we continue with our Monday sessions and Yeah, everyone's welcome It's great to be here. Thank you very much Charles. Love that Stacy Klaus Doug Well, like Mark and Hank, I've been pretty consumed with the upcoming election and what might happen after and base basically most of what I do is on Facebook and I left when Scott was speaking because I feel like I'm trying to teach Thinking skills and empathy in the Facebook groups and trying to inject a virus of understanding it's actually been kind of successful and I'm really looking to see if there's anybody that's interested in a few last-minute things that I think can be done easy simple things and That process would also work towards a break bigger project that I'm working towards which I'll talk about next week But this would be like the test case to see how that would go. So if anybody is interested, let me know Super interested. Yeah, that sounds great. Thank you Stacy Klaus Doug then Matt Yeah, it has been a really busy week finally after Working on this for years the this whole idea of regenerative agriculture is really catching on That they are incredible webinars and and activities Just across the spectrum that focus on it and I got queen-lighted by a citizen climate lobby combination business climate leader to run a national campaign addressing farmers to Promote the bills called the Cohen climate Solutions Act, which is a bipartisan bill That is essentially designed to pay farmers to shift their practices towards regenerative organic and then the money which comes through carbon markets, you know, it's a blockchain based method of Creating certifications for carbon sequestered into the soil and the farmer then gets paid on a per ton basis It's amazingly advanced already, but it's sort of time critical before the election because these farmers Are in a real pickle right now on the one hand They don't want regulations or government to get into their way to be told how to farm and what to do on the other hand they realize that What they're doing right now is pretty catastrophic, you know, they're losing their top soil They're losing their farms basically That the damage this year, you know, so climate events from fires to flooding to storms Windstorms and so on is just really significant and no one is tracking it, but there are several states in Colorado Lost significant shares of their crops before they could bring them in so a snowstorm in August So it is really amazing and then it's throughout the globe. It's Australia, you know, it's Europe. It's everywhere so I've been I Have a team together, but I mean you're working with volunteer groups. Everything is like calling in slow motion And I need to get materials together that allow us to Do mess mailing the emailing to farm boroughs and the farmers and so on to explain this This act and the information around it So and I we have 180,000 volunteers throughout the United States who all have training as Lobbyists, right? I mean our volunteers are being trained how to talk to members of Congress So I said Jerry, you know, but I mean if anybody feels inspired because I don't have these skills You know to I can do a PowerPoint sort of but I don't have the skills to put presentation materials together or really compelling Messages, you know do to summarize this Anyway, I think before I think maybe elections are obviously this is a very frightening moment I mean, I was born in Germany and I said from six months before the election in 2016 I said six months before this this smells really bad You know, I mean, this is they are some very familiar Undertones here that I can relate to I was born in 1949, you know, and I got really inadvertently more familiar with what happened in the 30s in Germany then Then you really need to know but We're right there, you know, this is this is a really bad moment and these farmers are critical I mean Trump is now pumping Billions of dollars into the farm sector, but it's a waste of money because these farmers should be incentivized to do the right thing But you have you know the same dynamics in the food system that you have in the energy sector You know, you have legacy systems that depend on agriculture doing what they're doing right now and Shifting into a regenerative process where you're working With the soil, you know to restore and regenerate the soil means that you have to change your crop types your cycles Your seeds and so on and the entire supply chain Is going to fall apart in that process, you know, it has to be reconfigured. So anyway, I I have a team of volunteers, you know, within the CCL community I mean, they're all very smart people and Scientists and farmers and so on but we don't have that skillsets, you know to to short term Now to put it together. I mean if you can but it takes two or three months to really to get it And class I'd love to put your question about how does how to make this really punch in front of the whole OGM group. So let's let's let's let's turn that into a group project and see who'd like to show up and help you that I know that I'd love to talk to that. I just been a little distracted Along with same lines my mom who I just mentioned at the top of the call was born in Berlin in 1934 and They escaped Germany in 39 just before shit hit fan on one of the last team ships out of Hamburg And and she grew up in South America and I lived the first 12 years of my life in South America as a result because my dad Who was a Polish American kid from Milwaukee? Ended up in South America because he loved engineering and loved adventure travel And I just finished watching the last season the most recent season of Babylon Berlin and I speak German As a result of all that I highly recommend Babylon Berlin because you can see Nazism's rise in As part of a detective story. That's an international mystery. That's a really well cast well scripted well acted well set Period piece about sort of what's happening in Germany in that in that era And I was just stunned at how good it was So we'll come back to that Doug then Matt Okay, let's see Rob Johnson who's president of the Institute for new economic thinking where I do some consulting Did a pod chat with me podcast with me last week? That's posted. It's I put it up in the early part of the chat It's a pretty good overview of the way I think about a lot of things And the issue really in the Institute is how you get economics Changing not one variable at a time, which is the standard approach and impossible But systemically by shifting the worldview It's a very interesting task and I'm very influenced by Bruno Latour's approach to that And some of that's reflected in the pod chat What's most of my mind is the potential violence around the election And how much is this a creation of the spectacle? I need the board's idea And it's not real and we're being manipulated for our clicks, but it sure feels real And it puts me in a dilemma as to how to handle it Do I try and keep myself really super informed on all the details in which case? I'm doing a lot of clicks and helping out those companies So I'm just puzzled, but I certainly am deeply concerned I mean if Trump is to act really badly Where is the the core group that could counter that? Where does the leadership come from and I can't see it yet Those are my thoughts Thank you We'll come back to that too So sorry, and I forgot that Robert joined us a little bit in the call. So Rob then that Great. Thank you So this week I'm in a entrepreneur group in Washington, DC And they had an event with Rob Bell who is kind of a spiritual Spiritual maybe some somewhat Christian. I'm not a hundred percent sure of his total background But an interesting question that kicked off a breakout group was Not where do you come from? But who do you come from? Which is a great question and you know thinking about who are the people that shaped your upbringing and your grandparents and potentially even further back And then from that How did you become who you are? So I thought those were great Questions that that drove some good discussion another part of the discussion he was talking about the the universe and You know 13 billion years ago we came from a black hole and And a big bang and there was particles and then after several billion years Particles started connecting and became atoms and after another couple billion years Adam started connecting to make molecules of molecules made cells and cells made life and so forth but that the the pattern in the universe is expansion and moving forward and you know and and where our Systems are inhibiting that forward movement There there is a force to change those systems So it was somewhat of an optimistic note among all the the chaos that You know that that the the life force in the universe is pushing us forward and that and towards connecting So that that was an interesting pattern Relative to my my work we're putting on an event in the next couple of months around human trafficking Some of our work is around Law enforcement and nonprofits countering human trafficking and we've had events in the past So Scott I appreciate the link around design thinking Use for breakouts we're definitely into design thinking and that so I'm sure that that that note will hit home So I'm looking into Platforms for hosting those meetings Teams and zoom or obvious ones. There's one called hop in that I've been looking at So if anyone has other platforms like that that are kind of well produced and support breakouts and things like that We may go with a zoom or we may may look at other ones But those are some of the things that I'm up to Thank you, and I'm gonna put that a link to Virtual event platforms in my brain. So hop in and a bunch of others and circles and flow OS The ones that we mentioned here are at that So you can look I don't know why I didn't go there first Jerry. Well, that's all right Almost nobody's got that habit Matt Hey everyone, it's been An interesting week and there's a couple of sort of things that I'd love to put out there one is I don't know if anyone has Ever seen the Farnham Street books Farnham Street it was started by a gentleman who was a analyst with the Canadian Sort of version of the CIA and has tried to create a set of volumes these on I think volume 2 and working on them Are sort of these great mental models. These are the mental models that everyone should be Using and I just think that there's something interesting there that and So I've been thinking a lot about mental models. I think you can a lot about change Rob one of the things that I have to find the link, but I think it's I think it's called the the world history project that talks about the sweep of all history and History doesn't just come together the way that you described it. It actually Deteriorates to a point that it then goes through this sort of threshold moment where it becomes a higher state And so you have this interesting You know sort of balance of entropy and things moving to zero and then something emerging out of it and Is that kind of what we're what we're doing right now as a civilization and You know the other thing that I've been thinking about is I based on this group some of the stuff Doug that you've been putting out there with Latour and and Also the indigenous knowledge of started reading low-tech Which I find to be fascinating You know, it makes me wonder though about Population and have We become so dependent on our systems to sustain the level of population that we have and are those indigenous models really require sort of You know require its own version of breakdown in order to be able to get back to you know back to those things and then the last thing I just want to put out there is I'm happy to help with the communication stuff. I know You know a couple other people on this call also mentioned that they'd be happy to help We have a podcast called talking machines. It's about artificial intelligence I'm wondering if we don't start a podcast, you know called talking food And we just started you can co-host it and we start an interview process with all these people and We get that going as well as some of the the more practical PowerPoint Things, but I would be happy to you know support support starting up that show I Also think that I'm working right now trying to find Sponsorship for a website that we're calling No injustice Kind of a plan words. It's k and o w but no injustice Dot org is what we're thinking about getting and Trying to get some heavy-hitting sponsorships where we actually visually And through narrative Describes the history of injustice and how we got to where we are, but I'm wondering if that also doesn't That we also don't expand that platform to talk about the food system, right? Talk about the climate system and connect to the climate web, but I'm wondering if Some of the work of this group can't be To build our own version of Almost like a micro a micro web of Content that all goes through a single a single portal of you know single place where you can Do your search you can do your thing, but you avoid all of the marketing I mean even my like I said last week even my daughter says that when she googles Something for school. She has to work through a thousand ads, right? I think she you know You know googled some some word term and there was a consulting company that had used that word And they were the first one and then there was you know some other company that had named their product that same word And you know, this is a 13-year-old girl trying to do a research project. I just think that the web is has been corrupted and You know by these You know this virus called sell me something so that's that's what's been on my mind and Happened to connect with people offline. Oh the last thing I'll say is Kevin and I You know got a meeting with an organization that I work with and I was somewhat disappointed in the the state of that meeting because I The reality and Doug I I'd love to pick your brain here is that these companies that are running our economic systems Are so dependent on The system itself being maintained and It's not a it's not it's not coming from a place of Maybe evilness the same way that I think You know other people who are corrupting our systems are it's coming from a place of sort of that worldview and the survival models and the perpetuation of what they think is good for You know all of the people who they're employed, you know that they employ all of the people that they serve They just can't see their way out of it. And I think Doug your comment about The path has to be systemic and it has to be illuminated for everyone to know that there's a there there that's safe and comfortable and Better than what we have otherwise people are just going to resist change Without either breakdown or you know something so we need to show the enlightenment otherwise we're going to experience the breakdown Yeah Clouse, I know you raised your hand. So yeah Let's go class and Julian. Sorry Yeah, man, I mean it does Make make a lot of sense intuitively. So the farmers for The US and everywhere really Don't see a path forward with how they can make money and how they can get paid for these changes that are so necessary and to to Send out a message saying look with you. No, we got you We're fit. We're going to figure this out collectively, but we have to go and change. I think that's sort of the message They are really waiting for Because they they see what is happening. And so the idea that Trump right now is pushing billions of dollars into the farm sector basically paying people for not farming right, I mean getting their cost demolished or Getting rises that are lower than then Their their production cost that doesn't help anybody So and the farmers know that so so to it's actually a very simple message To to to put into the market because everybody knows it, right? It just needs to be said it is not being voiced and it's not I I'm wondering about that that it I think you're right. It needs to be said and People intuitively get it like so we're running these strategy sessions for general mills, right? I find general mills to be in some ways Emotionally speaking as a as part of the problem, right, but we're talking about a very large organization that is dependent on From it from its own if you look at the world from its aesthetic from the Spanish point, right? If it was general mills was you as a human being The choices that you make and would have to make are actually their bad choices, right? You've built a system of you know Squeezing farmers and paying them less than you know, what the crop is what they have to pay for the crop You're dependent on the flow of sugar through your system You need card, you know, you need sort of these cargill driven mass manufactured farms. You need to you know market to Low-income people with sugars like all of these all of these things are built into the system And it's not that they don't need to change and it's not that the people Inside that system don't I can tell that they feel that need to change what they don't know is how do you take you know a billion dollars and Transfer it into another thing that feeds and sustains that whole system that everybody's dependent on and I think it's even even my company collective next is Supporting companies like that because that's the only way that you know That's the only way we've discovered right now to make the kind of resources and funds to be able to do the kind of work That we do want to do it. I think you're we're in the stuck in this We're all stuck in the same game of dependent on the market going up dependent on You know products being sold more and I think that that systemic dependencies It's not just awareness. It's it's It's what's on the other side And I don't know if people can even see and imagine what's on the other side and that scares me right The industry is stuck. I was in a webinar this week with the soil health Institute group of amazing scientists amazing people Talking about everything that needs to be done to restore soil to suppress the carbon out of the atmosphere into the soil So about halfway full. I asked the question And it got uprooted so they had to respond to it I'm Asking is the industry the supply chain ready, you know to deal with these Changes that the farmer will have to make in order to regenerate his soil and it was like no one wanted to touch it I mean the entire panel was like this is too hard to talk about now I won't one guy picked it and they talked it away, but that's really the challenge You know, you can't move until the industry Embraces it and they don't and then they're radically opposed to it Julian and then a question for the group on this topic. Go ahead to me All right, that's not since we had hit the halfway point We're talking about Google search is a bit inject a bit of rye humor a good friend of mine Has this hobby of looking for search phrases that will return exactly one Google result Mm-hmm Wasn't that called Google bombing I have I have two of those that I created. So yes, that's Google lacking Google lacking. Thank you. I knew it had a I knew there was a turn to this like Thank you. Thanks, Joe and And a question I think for Kevin and others Which is one of the things that stuck me years ago was that there's like a three-year period where farms have to Certify as organic and most farmers can't can't finance their way through the three-year period so other financial instruments and and that's just an old and Specific example, but I'm sure that right now moving toward regenerative ag is a very similar kind of path Are there financial instruments that exist already or that need to be invented to bring people Into new forms of production because part of the problem. I think The closest frame is that people can't see us safely across the river So so they're not going to try they're gonna they're gonna stick to the the lousy dangerous and unprofitable current method because Otherwise they may die because they can't see a way to actually change Or or maybe what we or what we have to do is we actually have to build Communities around these regenerative farms, and I don't know if there are indigenous lands or indigenous peoples that we want to actually Take the food system out of the hands of the capitalist system, you know move it into Into large-scale community-based farms You know, I imagine I grew up in Wisconsin. I imagine what if all that farmland? You know was put to use for you know a bunch of people who then moved move there and you know we kind of get back to You know these localized things we take out the globalized supply chain And you actually have to move closer to the the food if you want healthy, you know healthy and sustainable You know crops the farmers just revolt they start feeding themselves. They start housing themselves, you know And maybe that's the you know, you know take the ball and go home versus try to play in a system That just basically is you know squeeze them to death And I'm wondering about that just you know stepping away from The system is the right way to change the system, right create something on the side What we did it regenerate Illinois is help them move from farm to table regenerative to farm to hospital food system And we got a hospital in Peoria, Illinois And then up to go with oatmeal on a regenerative basis that because it's a bulk thing and it's anyway It's the thing you could do you could do groundbreaking you could do oatmeal and now there are five hospitals in that trial So an anchor customer who can pay the cost to do it in bulk is Rather than funding it seem to be there are several regenerative funds And they're trying and it's working in forestry more than it is in other things for and That like I'd like us to Stop the dive on food for a second to come back to the bootstrapping question because I think we can apply the bootstrapping question back to food in a second But I'd love to use the chat and the conversation just To ask you all what do you think bootstrapping means in the context of OGM? So type it into the chat. So will somebody type that question into the chat in all caps So that we can see it easily in the in the transcript what what does bootstrapping mean in the context of OGM and then Raise your hands or have a go at here and then also type it. Thanks. Thank you, Joe And then let's have a go at defining it ourselves Kevin go ahead You're muted Oh, okay, you were holding your finger in front of the lens I interpreted that as a So Let me just start one of them is like the idea of startups bootstrapping and Silicon Valley and And that that that whole path is tinged to me with sort of melancholy irony and danger Because I have ended up believing that the Silicon Valley startup model is an exit strategy eat the world winter takes all kind of model and I think it There's there's just tons of people around the world trying to encourage entrepreneurship and their role model is sort of Facebook and Airbnb and whoever And sort of businesses that eat their spaces And I'm unclear that that's good for the earth I think it may be better for the earth than large single-minded corporations that eat the world like ADM or Monsanto But I don't know how much better so so that that is completely one framing for bootstrap And there's a whole lot of literature around bootstrapping yourself into a startup and getting funding and all of that So I kind of don't mean that very much There's another completely different intention of bootstrapping which comes from Doug Engelbart Which I will only be able to speak of superficially But the idea that that humans can bootstrap by by sort of leveraging what they know and moving up into knowing more together His original system was called the augment online system or something like that He was he was really interested in augmenting human capacity as a team and I think that that the place I'm coming at bootstrapping From is much more aligned with what Engelbart was looking for And Engelbart's vision got waylaid for a variety of different reasons We could sort of diagnose if we want but I think that that general notion about how do we help each other make better decisions? Is is sort of in OGM's DNA for sure And then there are other kinds of thoughts about what bootstrapping might mean and and also an important part of bootstrapping is Creating a sustainable model of some sort and we've talked it's come up several times just in our check-ins here about well This is a we're you know, I'm creating a volunteer effort. I've got a circle of people who are just donning their time It's hard to wrangle Many of us would love to make a living doing what we're passionate about so that would be pretty cool So I think there there's a whole mix of things there And I see that the chat is going crazy and I need to pay attention to it But who would like to jump in and take the floor Joe, please go ahead So I can tell you what it happened yesterday and his interest in conversation as I mentioned I just exited recently a startup incubator and One of the best things that happened in that was that I kind of assembled a bunch of friends So you could imagine a kind of Joe's brain I guess group of all the people that I've gotten to know over the last, you know, 10 or 20 years or whatever kind of Coalition of the willing sort of group who have been meeting that we called them the Friday group during the startup incubator And then as it happened my my partner who I found inside this incubator stopped coming to these meetings Which is a pretty strong signal that it wasn't gonna work out with him because my vision was that this group would kind of form this sort of What would you a brain trust like in the in the words of the Pixar guy, you know that they'd kind of Maybe become advisors. Maybe we come first hires once we got some money and then we kind of shape things and move it all So that didn't happen for various reasons, but they still existed. So yeah, so we decided why don't we all like research Most of us have PhDs You know, why don't we just keep talking and it'll be kind of across between a seminar and Company and we'll kind of be a little bit more market focused their business focused than we would be in the academic Seminar will be like R&D. It will become an R&D seminar inspired by something like 3m Context and maybe we'll produce some customer Maybe we'll produce like some blog posts rather than some actual products and get them out there and see if anyone responds any of this So, okay, that's the context just one or two more sentences to set up how it progressed yesterday yesterday. We were thinking What were the risks the risks some different people raised kind of different views on risks? And I do think risks are really important for this Some some risks were that we wouldn't all be going in the same direction Some people thought this is a bad risk some people said that doesn't matter It doesn't matter if we go in for different directions as long as we get results for that person That wasn't the risk the risk was not getting enough results and then the first person kind of someone said went back, you know, maybe the risk is Rather that we can't communicate with each other and that we go in different directions And we're not able to kind of share the process. So the real the real risk is that we don't have a shared process And I thought all of those answers were interesting so that there in the end there wasn't a conclusion the only conclusion was That we would meet less frequently than three times a week and use some of our time to actually get some work done maybe in small two-person teams smaller Scrum like meetings rather than big group meetings. So I submit that that's where it's at right now Joe, thank you very much. That's great Scott All right. So for me bootstrapping I go back to the root which is basically getting yourself out of a situation by Pulling your boots on, you know, grab the bootstraps and and this is what you have you pull it and you just go So Rob, I think you hit something that said something about your interest into design thinking as well. So the book is Sprint it was written by Jake Knapp and He started the Google Ventures, which is a bunch of little startups and in five days They teach you how to do the design thinking process. It's a five-day process but the reason I say this is that steps Four and five are build a realistic prototype and then test it with your target customers And the the point of all of this is that they they build it in the least Possible Technical way they make it as simple as possible as fast as cheap as possible What do I need to be able to test this chair? Well, let's pop it Let's start with a box couple of boxes and then we'll put it on a couple pieces of wood Is that about the right height? Do I need to go to the wood shop and actually make a finished one and stain it and finish it? No, I'm just testing the height. Okay, we'll find something at that height and the point of this is that you Instead of having months and months of talking together about what we should do as a big program You do here's one thing. Here's one thing. Let's try it I think Joseph you mentioned that you put out a blog post you see what happens or you put out a comment That's smaller than a blog post and you see what happens and use that real word Rolled feedback to guide you but don't get hung up on making I can't test until I have a perfect prototype idea because you're always wrong You're not you're not your user You give it to the user you see what the user says and you just from there So I found that to be a really accessible resource that book and Scott you're reminding me that there's a Whole ecosystem a whole community Including certification and projects called exponential organizations that were built out of a book that saline Ismail co-authored Book a book titled exponential organizations that is just coming out in its version two And I was part of that whole activity in 2018 for quite a bit and they have they do ten week sprints for corporations Which incorporate everything you just described and by week five the teams are busy pitching something you often to the CEO of their company There's I can I can say a whole lot more about the process and what's going on there But the idea of getting quickly to something that somebody can react to is super interesting and Pete told us the story I think here in this setting maybe some other setting about having pitched an idea to a venture capitalist who said you're too far along on this idea What you really need to do is run three or four ads for different variants of the idea on Facebook And then figure out which one has traction and then build that thing Pete did I just mangle your story? Okay so And then and then I have this belief that that ah sometimes people just don't know what they want So a really quick prototype won't actually get there because it's not usable enough It doesn't actually sort of tangibly affect their lives. They can't use it well enough to groove it I mean before Steve Jobs premiered the iPhone in 2007 I Was studying all of the technologies that are component parts of the iPhone I did not imagine a slab of an obtainium that could that didn't really have buttons It has like three four buttons But didn't really have buttons on it and could become kind of anything that with a beautiful color touch sensitive screen I had looked at pen computing. I looked all different kinds of things But but the notion and now it's very hard for all of us to unsee the smartphone And very hard for many of us to imagine life what life was like before You had a GPS that meant that there was an interactive map for free on the same device that had a high-definition video camera That's it or etc. So So anyway, so that the sprint model doesn't often I think generate those kinds of ideas other Other thoughts on bootstrapping and what it might mean in our context Just quick I'll just show this is a real quick one Go ahead what you just said here. So if you ask people what you what they want I think you're right. They can't describe it necessarily always if you show them one thing and say do you like this? That it's still it's better, but it's not great if you show anybody two things They will always be able to go. Oh that one And if you just you know if you show them ten things it's the same problem again But if you just make it able and original, you know the original Facebook for better worse probably worse was a choice of This person or that person and you chose one or the other and then it was That was the original model at least reflected in the film So I think there's value in saying here these two things which one do you think and then you just keep going down that road You just reminded me that Christopher Alexander in his thick four-part series the nature of order starts with what like what is beauty? And he proposes that there's general agreement on what beauty is because if you show people two things On on the whole people will point to the more beautiful thing consistently across cultures across whatever So that there's some essence of beauty that sort of fits there And then the other thing it just triggered that I didn't have time to type in was the tyranny of choice Which is Barry Schwartzman I think Or Barry Schwartz who's busy saying like in in grocery stores where they showed three samples And they had a table of three samples and a table of 23 samples Many more people tried things from the table of 23 samples many more people bought things from the table of three samples Charles over to you Just wanted to go back to your question Which was put in a particular way which kind of made me think in Basically two ways a meta view and kind of micro hyper local view What is bootstrapping mean in the context of OGM? What does OGM mean in the context of OGM? So OGM is not one thing I Managed earlier today For sort of the second time since it launched to jump in slightly to the discourse the OGM discourse And I found a few threads and I I interacted a little bit It's clear that there's a lot of different Different things happening in different people in groups and projects and and Solutions and and all kinds of stuff conversations And so in the meta sense, you know bootstrapping in context of OGM is like getting all that together And it's phrase that I've been percolating for a while and it started to use again Just just now is get it together to get together And I think that's that's scalable kind of up and down between the meta and the mini levels So bootstrapping to me is like getting it together to get to really get together to get the collaboration going and and to play off that I Said I also typed into the chat. There's some there's network of networks communities of communities circles of circles There are just lots and lots of groups like this starting up all over the place with people who have an idea and know a lot of Smart people collect them up and say let's go do this. Let's let's make a movie back in the Judy Garland and What was his name? Mickey Rooney days Anybody who knows like old movies there was a whole series during the depression where the punchline was let's make it Let's put on a show And so we're doing that over and over again. Some of these are just nice conversations They become salons and they die out some of them turn into companies and go off and do things and Some of them get really good at a particular thing And I think part of what needs to happen is sort of this organic evolution of the communication across these networks So that we can learn from each other so that we can connect up and help each other get things done So that we can develop good models and just adopt the next the next community's model Because if you're trying to build for example an innovative business model for doing this You're going to be inventing from scratch Right, and we don't need to we should learn from from the best of people who've gone before So how do we do that? And then and then I think over time these communities will kind of form a gradient or a Landscape or a terrain of interlinked communities where they will kind of be separate or distant in the landscape Depending on some of their ethical philosophical political leanings where there will be be deeply, you know start-up culture Entrepreneurial go-go-go kind of corner of this and some of that knowledge will bleed off into other other communities, etc, etc I just would like to add, you know, I think that the details do matter in terms of I mean it's easier to kind of touch and feel and point to and talk about the on the Individual entity level like in Kiko app for example or trying to cross-pollinate between a few groups like here and and metacogs and pure goji are the ones that kind of came up and And But just even within one organization how how are we communicating actually how what are the chat, you know What's where's the interoperability also in terms of basic basic should be basic collaboration around a newsletter announcement, for example So just want to mention that so you just brought me back to the actual originating sparking thought of Suggesting bootstrapping ourselves Which was how might we actually use our own tools that improve them in doing what we're doing? and some of you have been taking our calls and Transcribing them annotating them max is not on the call, but shifting them off, you know Programming some some of it and moving it into Miro and modeling the conversational flow and doing a bunch of other things that's that's like fantastic and It's one of many kinds of instances of what we could and might be doing during the check-ins I was busy looking for stuff in my brain But all I was doing was putting links to that node in the chat Which feels like so impoverished to me. It's like how do we how do we up our conversation? How do we maybe improve the platform that we're in maybe we should be in in Kiko chat? Because then we could share documents better. I don't know that that doesn't feel like enough But but how can we sort of up our own game? Using more of our tools to remember and share what we do and then when we have really good ideas How do we break them up and share them out? And so back to Joe back to you and the pure gaji new new release the handbook I'm wondering what what formats is being released in is it released openly because I know how I've known Howard a long time And I'm assuming a lot of it is very open-sourced And how to make a handbook because I love field manuals and handbooks. They're like handy How to make it extremely useful for you? So how to make it at how to leave it at hand for people who want to use the wisdom that's lodged in it and here I'll point to a book series that came up in earlier calls When and Penelton Julian was with us and I'm a little frustrated that there's this incredible heap of great thinking stuck in books that and and JSP John C. LeBron have co-authored and They're trapped on dead trees and And and I'm like, how do we release these and make them not just available as text on a web page Which is a great leap forward but as an app that folds into our platform that we can then just use right? Yeah, so this is like the Question that I think I've been thinking about probably the most for 20 years or so I started thinking about it as a PhD student in mathematics and I basically at that time thought You know, none of these mathematicians are giving attention to optimizing the way they're teaching mathematics if they were they wouldn't be such horrible teachers, right? And so I thought well, why don't I do something different which would be Use computers to optimize the teaching of mathematics and then I had this thought about AI thinking that we are really optimized it with AI And maybe we're at a different we're doing something different from mathematics now so obviously a part of ways with them at some point but Yeah, I think that question me just to concretely answer your question in the concrete terms about the pure driving handbook So it is all available open source not just open source It's like the most open format that I can think of it's available in the public domain So if you for example want to take it download it stick your name on it put it through lightning source and sell it on Amazon You're more than welcome to do that Anyone here can do that You can use it in your lectures. You can translate it into Spanish. You can you know, do whatever you want with it Now that's a little bit objectionable to some people who think it should be copy left They haven't convinced me that it should should not be public domain yet, but they object But so what they object So there it is but yeah what you're talking about though It's not just the open license or being digitally readable or public domain It's actually the practical side of it and the software world that comes with something called like literate programming and again This is something came up yesterday in my sort of discussion like Instructions how how literate is literate if there's a bunch of exposition explaining how to how to do it or how to use it Is it actually enough and I think that that question like how do you create a how-to handbook? Is interesting then the other one that makes it even more interesting the context of pure guys You do we want to be a how-to handbook, but we don't want to be prescriptive Which is a really weird contradictory thing to have to walk right like how do you create something that's very open? And at the same time very practical, you know, so like Catechism is not open, but it is somehow practical, right? So that's where we're it's an interesting Space so I will leave it there because we haven't solved that problem yet But so those dilemmas are central to what we're what our inquiry is here And I think I would love to sort of keep looking back at that set of dilemmas you're describing That's a really nice collection, you know and and and one of Charles I'll get you in just a sec I woke up at 4am this morning sort of troubled about my mom unable to sleep But then I started thinking about a bunch of the stuff that I've created and how I've sort of been limited by trying to pour it into like a book form And I haven't published a book and all that but I have zillions of Snippets of stuff some of which I like I've done I just realized I've done a whole video series that I never really actually sort of published or Made public so there's a series of unlisted videos that I didn't do and then I realized Why don't I just weave these out in the in the open context and then make this an OGM ish kind of thing And try to figure out how these ideas connecting how to make them useful and all of that So I had my own sort of project that that fits in the in the middle of all this about trust Charles I just before we got too far further. I just wanted to go back and touch on you you mentioned something about upping our game and you were referring to getting Links from your brain and what what p and others do p especially deserves Big props for for sharing all the links and and he does that like always in all the different calls And this is amazing and it's also an amazing superpower that that that some of us are blessed with But it's a kind of blessing and a curse to do that in real time to kind of literally bifurcate this like incredible value of of the synchronous You know resonance and of the interaction and so I I just wanted to underscore that I think part of the upping of the game is just to to kind of lighten that load so that we're actually you know free Most of our energy To kind of being resonant in the synchronous mode But that's still incredibly valuable. I don't have any more answer to that But well, I'm real I'm really interested in how each of us can apply those things that we seem to be sort of gifted to do In a in a way that blends and intersects and interacts that doesn't overwhelm everybody But rather enriches this this common common thing we're doing And Some of you've heard me talk about farmer leaf cutter ants as a as an analogy for there's a lot of nice biological analogies for what ogm is doing But leaf cutter ants don't eat leaves like they can't digest or metabolize leaves So why are they out there in trees cutting down leaves? Because they bring the leaves down into the into their nest They hand them off to the basically the the fungus tender farmer ants They're also known as farmer ants who then mulch up mulch up the leaves They're put their spit and the leaves onto a fungus that they're busy symbiotically growing in In their nest and everybody feeds off the nectar that that fungus basically creates So that's what they're all eating. So so there's this gigantic collaborative task that leads to A thriving hive and lots of nutrition for everybody That involves series out, you know a series of systems and symbiotic relationships including for example They did they did chemical samples of the dust on the on the thorax of the ants that are right at the fungus face And it turns out that there's natural antibacterials That are on the ants that are trying to keep the fungus from getting infected by You know opportunistic infections that all of that all of that sort of stuff is happening in lots and lots of players So I see ogm as kind of we're we're like smarter termites who are busy Trying to figure out how to feed the fungus and live off it together In in a in a way that makes the soil healthier just to take it back to to claus and kevin and regenerative Processes because those principles are the heart of what we're thinking about charles then You triggered just one more thought which I thought and then you set me up very well for sharing it which is something like This thriving hive image from the from the leaf cutter ants Point points to very specifically like what are all the other ants doing? And so what are us here in in the synchronous and also in the asynchronous in in discourse and in the Forum and so forth and amongst our very sub conversations Doing in those various ways and forms But but back to the kind of the moment of now in a zoom call like with all these links flying In the chat personally the the best way that I've managed to Deal with it and some of you have heard about this is just to grab them Put them into my mind map, which is where I take my notes and kind of literally interweave and interleave The chats with the links into the conversation notes and at least you get them interwoven with with this The kind of time stamping and and so on so anyway just want to share that Thank you. And I think the the nugget size is what I call this is really interesting and important Like is is a nugget a unit Is it a book size? Is it a tweet? Is it a chapter? Is it a thought? Like like what is that and that that's kind of an interesting philosophical and design question We need to dive into later dug Well, this is kind of naive, but it just starts from my experience sitting here I wish I could click on each person's picture And get a statement of who they are and what's most on their mind And then I could rearrange the squares with the people I'm most interested in at the top So everybody who's in the community would have a picture even if it's a thousand if I can rearrange them That would be terrific. And then down the right hand side would be a list of topics or themes Those two together would give me quite a sense of power personal power in manipulating into the space So at the top of the call, I think it was scott who mentioned the now pages slash now And so I borrowed this from darksivers and at the bottom of my every email My signature is now slash now, which is a link to my now page Where I've made the effort to say this is what I'm working on although I'm realizing I haven't refreshed it in a while and it doesn't it doesn't It doesn't put ogm high enough because this is really the center of my my passion And if we were then to take those pages tag them up Remix them and make them available through metadata And then if and only if zoom were able to process some of that information You could in fact see yourself Around people you want to talk to during an event I'm just playing for playing forward your fantasy your fantasy vision But it's it's like a simple matter of programming, right? And and by the way, um, somebody just mentioned weaver, right? um, so the Sorry, weaver was for profiles. Yeah, but but um, I'm thinking here of the, uh, w What is the web rt? Yeah, where web rt? I think it is the video protocol on the web There's a whole bunch of zoom like systems that don't cost very much money because they're basically using, uh, web art What is the peak? What's it called web rt? Yeah web rtc. Thank you Um, they're busy using that but we could code a work alike Um, that does some of this sort of stuff and in fact has as its algorithm for how it presents people to each of each person Like hey, here's people and we could make it really easy to exchange contact to say hey, you know, are you a trusted person? You look like somebody I'd love to talk to that means you swap information Automagically we could prototype something like that And that could fit into piragaji because it could implement some of the rules of piragaji and there's If we can get into a play space where we can start figuring out some of these things and we do have a few coders in the room Um, I think these things would be really interesting to mock up and experiment with go ahead scott Um, just really quickly this Pre crates to my experience with online dating in the best possible way because what happened was The best the best sites that I was on at the time Had attributes and interests before they had images And so it was it just was perfect and I'm I'm very happy right now Because of that and I think it addresses a whole problem that we have And I think I I could definitely see that because as Doug is saying we do select people based on connection and having that list of Topics and interests and people and then being able to move them to the top. I think that's It's just such a great way to approach people love that um So in the interest of bootstrapping I'm curious what do we in ogm need to do to get some experiments like that up in front of ourselves How do we do we need to fund some coders? Do we need to just collect together some coders to say hey, how about this etc lauren?  Yes, now we hear you. It's very weird So I keep kind of saying this but I really do think the easiest way to jump in is just to uh, you know start with a client just someone in our network who's Really important has like a you know media connection like someone who has like a lot of sway that we can bring in Ideate on whatever interests them Especially if it's something fun that we like to do to like talk about the election or something like that and just throw down in terms of like very quickly just like How how do we do this being being being and then actually like come up with something? It's good for them Because they get like free ideation on that's amazingly high quality. It's really good for us. So we can start seeing What do we actually do when we do something together? Who does what who's good at what here? When we actually work Who's good at What things and then from there we can start giving each other Recommendations like the the video I did for you Jerry We can do that for each other and start building up like a professional Portfolio so it's like each week We can really start building stuff and then after just one week We'll have a client that we can say this is a client of ogm and brag about you know our client We can make you can start making demos from that to show to put on power points and But it just moves us along in a really fast pace. I think and then we'll know exactly what we need to code to make the process smoother to make it work and um I think clients would be great and I've got six different conversations I'm in any one of which could turn into a project that will employ some ogmers or that will or Kind of my preference that will pour some money into a vat that we can distribute among ogm fellows or something like that Among people who are contributing a lot to ogm. So that would be great I'm very leery of the wrong clients because one of the problems with media lab at mit Was that its sponsors were basically the major media companies? And so for how many decades, you know nico nico pump in the media lab have been around We don't have a lot to show for it because they were constrained by their sponsors by by like Partly they were trying to reinvent industries, but they were trying to reinvent them from a profitability perspective I'm over generalizing. There is the fc problem as well um But but they had problems before you know fc showed up. There was just a A grounding problem in how they were motivated or framed to go after problems Um The profitability perspective, I think that we can focus on um ideating and actually Means like how do we produce like you and april have been talking about this concept of There are all these things that we don't have a word score So we can't talk about it and that like like the like the trump thing that thing he the magical thing he does Yeah Of course that he does like oh joe biden didn't bottle up on you know this It it's really hard to talk about without coming up with these Meta concepts and that's what we can do and I just think having a partner that can actually get the word out and um, you know writing about this in an editorial or you know, it could be anyone who has a large audience Okay, but something where we actually make something that's distributed to other people who can digest it Would inspire us I think I like that Other thoughts were at the we're at the 90 minute mark. We should start to wrap this call any concluding thoughts This felt like a bootstrappy conversation for what it's worth. I I feel like there was a lot of sharing of how we think about this mark Please. Yeah. Yeah, I I want to take on what Lauren was Saying earlier about taking one client. So the collectives that that have been forming is with indigenous allies. So what what we decided to do is that every member of that collective will take one of its project And uh, basically structure it like a model So from that, you know comparatively with you know, five six seven projects We hope to achieve a best practice a model with you know, how to best work with indigenous people You know, that's an idea for start to that we do And thank you mark and you're reminding me that one of the most useful things we might do as a group as part of bootstrapping Is to serve communities that could really use our help um, and then second thought along those lines is The conversation with indigenous populations around the world has to be handled with great care with great care care, excuse me um In part because the last 10 scientists and media people who showed up basically screwed up their world worse than it was Um, so there's there's like no no particular reason for most of those communities to trust outsiders Uh, etc. etc. There's there's kind of a long list of issues But still I think that's one of the one of the most interesting and important things we can do Um is be of service be of help to those communities and I Have a very naive understanding what that even means so so opening that conversation and deepening it I think is a would be a really useful thing. Charles go ahead Um, just wanted to prompt you mark if you might um share something We we share a number of other groups and and going back. Um, I guess it was last year The beyond us and now the the metamorphosis group is a facebook group some of you know are part of and and with with a lot of Discussion and and sharing and content around indigenous stuff We also had Quite a wonderful talk with tom atley about about this as well Um, so I think I just want to highlight those things and mark. I don't know if you want to comment any further If there's anything that comes to mind at the end of this call here Maybe an invitation to metamorphosis, which I just come on as a moderator as well. Um Well, I think I think I mentioned, you know, one of the uh last times we were all together here Um that I started but I put it on the pose But well, that's something that I call indigenous voices That I started with now what? Six months ago and I'm going to restart it with the next now what? um with ben roberts um So just just gathering indigenous people and have them share, you know, their views on on on some topics and the first once was about uh, mostly um bringing down some of the Perceptions that we have about indigenous people And we tend either to romanticize them or idealize them and and and that's really not helpful to paint the pictures of indigenous people as noble salages Um, which is really, you know, again, you know colonialism that is worst um, so it's it's really to for me it's um It's really to get them into into conversation that was the third third Talks that are organized with them Um, so it's it's being inclusive and thinking like, you know, like when I Read the title of the book low-tech, uh, traditional ecological knowledge, um That doesn't mean anything In itself It has to be contextualized And it, you know, when you go into a tribe that they don't talk about ecology They they talk about the living system. They talk about uh What do they need to maintain the systems and and Stay alive basically so once once you come from that point Uh, you you you have a very different and more interesting conversations. I think Thank you. I love that. That's a great perspective I think it may be time to ring the bell uh on this call. I Genuinely deeply appreciate your being here and uh Let's build more stuff online and see you in a week. Yeah All right, best wishes for dealing with your mother jerry. Thank you all. Thank you very much. I appreciate that a lot