Yes. Thanks. Today is August eight. It is 1136. And this is the beginning of the meeting of the disability access advisory committee. Jennifer, can you read the disclaimer? Do you have it? I do. Okay. If you would read it, that would be great because I don't have it. And I'd take forever reading. Sure. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. The chapter 20 of the acts of 2021, this meeting will be conducted via remote means. Members of the public who wish to access the meeting may do so via Zoom or by telephone. See instructions below. No in-person attendance of members of the public will be permitted. But every effort will be made to ensure that the public can adequately, adequately access the proceeding in real time via Zoom. Thank you. You're welcome. Okay. We need to do a roll call because I don't actually know who's here. So if you're present. Let's see. At least I know is not going to be present. Marty, are you here? I'm here. Yeah. Okay. And let's see who else. Ian, are you here? Yes. Ian, I'm here. Okay. Cody, are you here? No, Cody. Right. Is that right? Okay. And. Okay. Okay. Okay. And Sarah, are you here? Yes, I am. Okay. So we have Sarah. Marty. Ian. And me. And unless we get one more person. Jim. I see Jim crew near. He's here. So. Are you here? Whoops. Your speech is breaking up, I think.  Yeah. This is Jim created near and I'm here, but I have. So I'm not out. I'm not a voting member. Oh no. Okay. Go ahead. This is Pamela. You have a four voting members. Right. But you're, so you're. But Marty will be leaving. And so we can't vote on the other item. Okay. I, I at least. Did say that she was not able to join on Thursday, but I did send her an email and I sent one. To Cody as well. To see if they might be either of them might be able to join. Okay. I'll be here all meeting. So I was hoping to tag it on to the end as unanticipated business. And I understand that you cannot vote. So. No. If we don't have four voting. You can explain, but you can't vote. Right. No, I can't even do that. You can't even explain. Okay. So I think though, I'm sorry. I would interrupt, but as long as you will have a quorum, which you do have. You can take a vote of the. Of the members who are present. So you would, you would have a quorum for the meeting. And then of the three members who are able to vote. Oh, then we could actually just say Marty recused herself. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So that is, that is for, okay. Perfect. Okay. So we're going to. Mess around with the meeting order again. Because Jason skills. Oh no, I guess we need to have announcements. Does anyone have an announcement. And I also need to welcome Jim. I'm sorry. I'm a little bit. Be fuddled here. First Jim. How do you say your name, please? Uh, credo near. Her to near close. Okay. And you there. Credit card and near. Credit. Yes. Okay. Perfect. Welcome to the disability access advisory committee. We are very happy to have you. We will be very happy to have your expertise, which I understand is considerable. So this will be terrific. And I'm very glad that you've joined us. I'm very glad that the manager appointed you. And, um, okay. So. Does anyone have any announcements? Do we have any public Pamela. Or Jennifer. You do have, uh, one person in the, uh, in the, uh, public one attendee. Okay. Is, uh, is that public person interested in making a comment? They're raised. Yes. Okay. Yes. Okay. So I don't know who it is. So I don't have my headphones. So I can't look. My headphones. It's a Tracy Zafia. Oh, okay. Hello, Tracy. Whoops. I think we're going to have a meeting. I think I'm muted. Hi, Myra. So this is Tracy. Hi. Good to hear you. Good to hear you. And, um, I didn't really have much of a public comment. I had meant to email you earlier, but it's been busy. But I did just have a few updates about. Perfect. Thank you. One. Um, One. I know that the, um, council voted in late June about, they did approve the final version of the snow and ice bylaw, which now includes other obstructions to the public way, including vegetation. And so I was going to share a copy of that with the committee. Do you know who is the enforcer? The enforcers, as I understand it, is the inspection department. Um, and Jason skills who's here may be like more familiar. So. I hadn't heard the new rules yet. So. All right. Well, I will share those because, um, I actually asked Athena O'Keefe to send them because I haven't seen them in the new bylaw. Yet the general bylaws. Okay. So the enforcers are inspection, not the police. And not the DPW as you understand. Yes. Okay. Um, and the other update was about the street lights policy. Yes. Um, is there was an animated discussion at last night's council meeting about the policy. Um, a number of concerns had been raised by myself and others. So it has been referred back to committees for more consideration, including TSO. And GOL. And some people had asked attack weigh in as well. Um, it's currently, scheduled to go back to the council. No later than November 20th. So it's continuing to have changes. So are they still working with the version that we saw, which had nothing to do with placement and had everything to do with the type of lighting. Um, or have they moved on to placement? So the thing is that they haven't really moved on. To placement very much. Though in some of the recent comments, including the ones that I submitted, there was some different, there were comments and concerns about treating different types of roadways different. Like for example, I had expressed concern in the last two versions that I saw about arterial roadways and dimming the lights on Ontario roadways, because that's where the majority. You know, I think 86% of Amherst fatalities and serious injury crashes have occurred on arterials. In the last 13 years. And that's where the vehicles are going faster. Sometimes there's not good sidewalks. There's just a lot more injuries. And, you know, there's graphs about like the faster vehicles are going, the more likely people are to be injured. Both on the driver side and also on the other side. So, you know, they haven't got the sponsors having gone back to the original proposal where they split up the town, like based on zoning districts. And to sign some as being high pedestrian areas and low pedestrian areas. But I guess I would encourage them to have some locational components, especially around the types of roadways. And so. Okay. Those are discussions that are ongoing. Okay. And also, oh, and the finance committee is also reviewing it in terms of the financial implications. Of the new policy because of course we have limited budgets and. You know, other people have other priorities. So. Yeah. And other than that, I'm just happy to be here. And I can just sit back and listen. Thank you. Very, very much. Okay. Because Jason is here. We're going to go to the update. Yeah. Sorry to interrupt. I just realized I did have one. This is Ian. I realized I had one brief. Announcement. Yeah. So the legislature finally passed the state budget. And included in that is how the. First billion dollars of the fair share amendment. Money is broken down. For those who don't know, the first year amendment is was voted on in November. To an increase of 4%. Income tax on any. Income above the first million dollars. And so in that is 90 million dollars. So. 301.5 million statewide for public transportation. 90 million of that goes into improvements at regional transit authorities. And of that 90 million, 4 million to support expanded mobility options for. Older adults, people with disabilities and low income individuals. So I just wanted to share that with the committee. So we had that. Sort of on file or on our radar as we continue our advocacy. And I'll, I'll share the document that I have. This is great to know. So 4 million total dollars. Split between the MBTA and the 15 regional RTAs. Or excluding the MBTA. Excluding the RTA. Excluding the RTA. Excluding the RTA. Excluding the RTA. Excluding the RTA. Excluding the RTA. Excluding the RTA. Excluding the RTA. Excluding the RTA. Excluding the RTA. Excluding the RTA. Excluding the RTA. Excluding the RTA. Excluding the RTA. Excluding the RTA. Excluding the RTA. Excluding the RTA. Excluding the RTA. Excluding the RTA. Excluding the RTA. Excluding the RTA. Excluding the RTA. Excluding the RTA. Excluding the RTA. Excluding the RTA. Excluding the RTA. Excluding the RTA. Excluding the RTA. Excluding the RTA. Excluding the RTA. Excluding the RTA. Excluding the RTA. Excluding the RTA. Excluding the RTA. Excluding the RTA. Excluding the RTA. But the whole budget that the RTAs get from the state is a hundred million dollars or they're about So thank you for that information that's That's a 4% increase So cool. Good to know and I'm on the PVTA Board of the paratransit Councils so next week. I guess I might find out more about that, but thank you for bringing that up Ian I appreciate it and I'll email you the document. I'll email everyone the document. Perfect. Okay um All right, jason can you give us a status update on the projects that we've been sort of talking about and we'll um I guess the north common pomeroy the mill river And anything else Um, and then we can talk about the traffic signals. You can include that in it. It's all part of what you know about So that's great. I'll start with mill river. I know the least about this project. Although I know we've been tasked with it um gilford has a A d a access report that highlights all the problems and the and the things that are wrong over there Especially around the pavilion and other smaller issues So I just need to get a look at that report and we can start tackling the bits and pieces that need to be designed And the bits and pieces that are just, you know, replace a sign or fix this or fix that So we need to look at what the bigger project items are and then the smaller stuff will fall behind We'll come in behind that so that's as much as I know about mill river Which isn't a whole lot. I wish I had a better list, but I don't have that report in front of me I haven't had a chance to review it Okay, so that's mill river Pomeroy is going great. They have poured I'm gonna say about 75 of the crosswalk ramps are all poured And all the islands are in they are planning to do a final pave In early september. That'll be the top coat of asphalt In the meantime, they're working on the ramps and all the sidewalks that connect all those um, all the RRFB foundations are in the ground and ready for Ready for the rapid reflecting beacons The street light Pole bases are in the ground and ready for street lights. So that is really coming together The contractor we're working with is hoping to be out of there by the end of september So that intersection should be fully finished functional paved and ready to go By the end of september and on budget No, never That was a five million dollar project that we got a 1.5 million dollar earmark for so we knew from Beginning that that was not going to make budget Um, it was a generous earmark, but it was nowhere near enough So I do not gilford's very creative with budgets. Um, I'm sure some of it's going to come out of chapter 90 um, but I don't know everything about that. He's very come into my neighborhood before he does that Yeah North wittney street hills road red gait lane are becoming Absolutely treacherous. Yeah, we've gotten some complaints from all of those I mean, they're treacherous And we've got treacherous roads all over the place. Yep. Yeah squeaky wheels to squeak about them too Well, so we tackle as much as we can with our budget and we move on to the next year So we'll still fall into place in the next upcoming years Okay, um, I think there was more money for chapter 90 in that in that um The the thing that ian reported on I don't know what the number was I thought I heard I heard something like 25 000 which really That's not a whole lot when he comes to asphalt But yeah, so there's a little bit more which is great. We can stretch it as far as we can So that is pomeroy lane north common We are working with the contractor to have a pre-construction Meeting at some point to discuss the availability of the materials. He needs to build everything He's pretty confident. He can get 80% of the materials he needs this year so that he could get a solid start going he could get all the drainage in the ground He could get all the subsurface things done at least before the snow flies if the snow flies this year Um, and then the rest of the granite would be delivered in the early spring And that's all the sort of big decorative beautiful, um granite seating walls and stuff like that that really make the park nice Uh similar to kendrick park but a little but much on a slightly grander scale Um, so that's north common. We think we are going to start it this fall We're just trying to make sure that the contractor's got the stuff He needs to really get it started and and make a make a good dent in the project And that sounds probable. So we're moving on that one um north common and oh so the accessible traffic signal repairs like I said earlier before we started recording We had that study done with I believe it was ocean state signals did an inventory of all our signals and all the pertinent ADA relevant pieces like the audible signals and the There's the countdown feedback the audible signals and a few other ADA aspects of all those signalized intersections And we are currently our electrician is working on pricing all the bits and pieces needed to upgrade All those to to 100 percent. So we're waiting on the the numbers to come back for what that's going to cost Do you have any idea when you're going to get that information or the information about? uh mill river I don't unfortunately. I wish I had more info on both of those but I Kilford sort of threw me in this on the last minute. I just came back from vacation yesterday. Sorry Kilford gave me a really quick briefing yesterday told me he wasn't going to be here today and that I can You know some of them I can talk to and and I know more about than others But the those two I don't know as much about those two projects. Unfortunately Okay, does anyone on the committee have any questions for jason? I do. Okay. Um, there was a um Um An email we got a while ago from jim cruneer and he brought to our attention the problem at the at the intersection of 116 and amherst college and that it was almost impossible for people with mobility impairments to uh use that intersection and then I brought the brought this up to pamela and myra and Jay and uh, Gilford and then I communicated with gilbert gilford a few times and he said that is Handled by D o t And he has no access to that but he promised that he was going to get in touch with the Person in charge of that project and he was going to let us know Which I never heard anything since then So do you have any updates on that? I I can't specifically say if he had a conversation with them or not. I believe he did um, there's there's a small argument going on between mass d o t engineers and the contractor as to How to make the handicap ramps? accessible and to you know to the letter of the law And d o t keeps telling them to form it up and pour it and if it's not right, they'll rip it out They'll make them rip it out But the contractor wants d o t to put it in writing on the plans What those slopes and things can be and they're sort of refusing to do it that way so there's sort of a It's a cart before the horse problem the design was not specific on all the different ramps and how they were supposed to be formed and poured and when the State tells the contractor to do it and if it's no good, we'll rip it out and the contractor doesn't want to do it Yeah It's not a great scenario. They're I think they're finally working it out. It looks like they have some of them formed Because they did they did a lot of the asphalt approaches on a lot of those ramps and crosswalk Ramps, so I think they've got it figured out. I haven't talked to them since I got back but I think they've got it figured out and there's that argument has been Resolved I guess I'll say So I think they will be forming and pouring ramps relatively soon because they're actively going with the asphalt sidewalks For now they are still gravel at those ramps, so they're not great as far as accessibility goes I believe the buttons are active now For a while there were no pad buttons because they were switching from Double set their single set single buttons to double buttons So I think those are closer now and those are actually functional So I saw they had those wired Um, so the pad signals at 116 are good, but the ramps are still not in So they are working on it, but I don't know like again, it's it's out of our control because it is a state project You know, we didn't even talk about that for the from the perspective of the The accessible signals meaning the audible portion, but I assume That they're going to have Yeah, the new ones should meet all the standards. Um, I assume that The state yeah, the state will this state will be held to meet all the all the pertinent standards. I'm sure So those ones I hope this project could be accomplished finished before this year starts because I'm sure there are lots of students at Amherst college with mobility impairments and We would like to have that open up to everyone And he brought this up To the town's attention. When was it myra? At least in our march meeting? I think it was me, but the town has no the town has no authority over it. That's the problem Yeah, the thing is, you know, but there is the ADA regulations and we have to To watch on behalf of all the people with disabilities And so if the state is falling behind I even thought of contacting Jeff Dugan But I didn't know whether I mean I said I first bring it up in this meeting today and see where it leads us Is your concern that they aren't going to have it working at the end or is your concern that during construction They haven't taken care of it in a safe way My concern is a I don't Have any doubt that it would be accomplished at the end one way or another But I just wanted to be addressed High priority like it shouldn't be a discussion between the contractor and the state You know because states should have some rules and they should just be applied So why should people with disabilities suffer from this for such a long time too? It's not just a month or two Yeah, it's been those ramps have been gravel for quite a while They should have they should have provided some form of access Or detour of some sort by now, but I like I said I we you know We can poke and we can say hey you guys need to get on this but It it really comes down to the contractor and the state coming to an agreement and The state needs to really sort of spell out how those ramps need to be formed You know they need to design it and that should have been designed from the beginning But when they put it on the contractor to design it in place, it's kind of it's unfair It's like a change order. Why did they do that? Yeah, yeah open for it leaves them wide open for any kind of a change order like this is impossible then Then go back to the drawing board and tell us how to do it So I get where the contractor is coming from and the state can be kind of rigid in there, you know Not giving the appropriate guidance sometimes Marty do you know anything about this kind of mess with the state? I'm sure you do Yeah That's a particularly difficult situation because Particularly on the southwest corner It's going to be almost utterly impossible to make that accessible because it's a sidewalk and not An interstitial path So you can't flatten it out Um because it goes up the hill right there It's it's it's a real technical problem because and It's one of those questions one of those things where you shake your head and wonder why you're putting a curb cut At that point because there's no place for anybody to go beyond it except Down route nine you can't go forward if you're in a particularly if you're in a manual chair It will be very difficult It's always across from the southwest to the northwest No, that's the it's the southwest corner Going down 116 Yeah Yeah, okay It's not the crossing. That's the problem. It's the sidewalk now. What kind of path would you say? Pardon, what was the word you used for a path that was interstitial? That means it doesn't run parallel to a road Oh, okay so that's why Sidewalks are defined as running parallel to a road And those are not required to be made accessible because you can't regrade the road In order to solve the problem Does that make sense to everybody? Yeah So the solution would be to make a much longer interstitial path that for which you would have to take some land And maybe make a like a loop that would I don't even know how you could do it You don't okay. No because you've got you've got the Amherst college buildings Um, right near the this is where you have to start looking at things like site elevators Jim and sarin do you um have any Comments about this, you know much much more about me than I do I Haven't really been at the site myself personally. So I cannot make any comments, but I just um was following up with an alert I got From a colleague Okay, who's right here. So yes Yeah, I would I would just point out. I mean, it's That general intersection has been impassable to people with significant mobility impairment since before amherst college commencement Uh, they're on track for being inaccessible After school opens If one corner is not accessible that in itself is not You know a huge ADA problem because you know people can cross over the there's a anyway You can get around it But the problem is and has been that there really is there aren't any alternative pathways there without going extraordinarily far out of your way and I I understand that it's not a Problem that this group with the town officials can resolve But it's really crazy how the department of transportation approaches all this if anything they've made the situation worse over the last two weeks Or the contractor has or together they've made it worse Because they've ripped up more I I don't know what they've done in the last two weeks Can you they they had to chase it further back to make the slopes adequate? So they did they dug out more of the asphalt to chase it further back. I've seen some boards being formed up There's some boards in place now, which means They should be closer to pouring concrete And hopefully that's the final solution But again, they haven't I've seen those boards there for two weeks now and they haven't poured any There's stuff that things have been formed up, but no concrete's gone in So I don't know what exactly is going on if they're still Having this back and forth argument, you know If the contractor puts the boards in to form the concrete the state should be able to measure those boards and say yes This is the slope we want, you know, as long as the concrete matches the form boards The concrete should be good theoretically So is there anything is there anything that we can do As a committee as a town as anything to talk to anyone in dot Does gilford have the ear of anyone in charge of dot dot do you I know nothing about how that stuff works We have the local Site engineers contact and they have about as much pull as we do Um a lot of that stuff ends up having to go back to boston and bounce back to us It's a very slow road a letter from the committee wouldn't hurt to dot, you know Accessible as soon as possible that wouldn't hurt I guess I don't know if gilford would recommend that or not, but I would I suppose Okay, yeah, I think it might be a good idea Okay, at least let us bring it up to their attention that A Before the school starts it will be in the worst situation with the students all coming in And all the constructions going on I if we're Done with this topic. I also want to bring my Go over my same old comments again about mill river The pavilion part And amherst neighbors hold their yearly meetings there And in the meeting that was held Not this past summer this summer before there was a The older woman that fell off the Site of the pavilion and this happened when the town manager and I were chatting So it happened in front of our eyes and then I brought this up to our Dac meeting and then the decision was going to be That until further improvements are made That site was not to be used for public affairs And again this summer it was used by the same group And the same problem, but what they did is I noticed that they put some trash bins At least discouraging people from going down that way because there is a threshold Like maybe about oh less than a foot maybe but enough to Throw people not prepared for that after balance and fall So that should be The restrooms are a big issue Because there are no restrooms near the pavilion and people were wondering where are the restrooms And they had to be guided through the pool area behind the pool area So those two things are I think in my opinion high priority with mill river I'm sure there are hundreds of other violations there which we'd like to improve eventually But there are some things it should be prioritized And we shouldn't wait for the whole grand process to be completed And we should get money from the state and use it but there are other things that is of Concern to people That are using the facility the pavilion. So I guess I have I have a question which is if this if the instructions from Guilford, I don't even remember who Said no is the inspection department The inspection department said that there should be no events at mill river. He's he's the one who went there He's the one closing it down. How on earth did amherst neighbors get a permit to use it? Yes How did they get one It all goes through town hall as far as I understand the pavilion rentals and whatnot So I don't know who Pavilion rentals are through amherst recreation So maybe they don't know what the inspector decided I don't know But it's you know if the inspector said it wasn't safe And if the inspector said that it should be closed That's right because of it's because it's a hazard then nobody should be given a permit to use it That's right. That's number one and number two Jason can you Report I mean putting in a bathroom near the pavilion is probably hundreds of thousands of dollars. Yeah Is that accurate they could be signage Showing where the best the bathrooms are people don't know they eat they ask each other Okay, well until until there is Lawful use of the pavilion in a way We don't have to spend good money After bad to do anything about that because there shouldn't be anybody using it According to the inspector and I would I I don't know who's Uh, is it you Jason? Is it you Pamela? Is it you Jennifer who would talk to the inspector? and Make sure that that is still The opinion of the inspector and then everyone in the town should know it That's right. That's so I'm a little concerned because um, the right hand Doesn't communicate with the left hand. We have enough trouble if they do But when they don't if somebody had fallen off and the inspector to know and recreation said yes, then we have trouble Yeah, um, so I don't know but I I'm wondering if the reason to find out how much all of it costs is that if we can't Use it. We don't need to put up signage because that'll Town has limited areas For that kind of usage too. So I understand, you know, they don't want to say no, you cannot do it But then if it is not safe Just putting trash barriers there to block people from falling and that's Such a medieval way of looking at these things Right though It was an area that isn't supposed to be traversable so You know the the accessible route is somewhere else completely in the area where that sort of low area is You're not people aren't supposed to be trying to walk through the inaccessible area They're supposed to so the trash bins were a way to guide people to the accessible route But I get it Yeah, I don't think she was walking.  I mean it was it was an accident But it was an accident that if there had been even a railing there Um, and maybe that's a cheaper way to you know, I see though I see, you know, you know what? I mean, there isn't any state law that requires a railing for eight inches So there's no requirement that there be a railing there, but since they have Since they have a problem marty helped me with this No, you're right. You're right Okay, but I mean it would seem that we should be able to put up a railing But the trash barrels achieve the same purpose in a way But they weren't using it to get there. They weren't using it a path as a pathway jason. They just fell off Open area and the In effect creative a stop Basically, they do act as a railing and it's get it. We know we knew it was a stop gap, but we've got There has been some money set aside to It's at mill river. So we're working on that They took some arpa money and put it towards this project So I need to get a look at that report that I haven't seen yet That details all the deficiencies the ADA deficiencies and then I then we can start addressing it one by one at a time So that that's definitely on our list and we are looking at it So the next question is very late The question that comes from all of this is that there is a DOT grant We've gotten it many years Um, it is due on september 30th or something like that It was it was open last week a week ago today And they look for all having to do an accessibility project and somehow I hope the planners can be engaged in this Conversation but by waiting till september it'll be a little bit late Because it'll be like the 13th of september and i'm sure everybody always gets their applications in at the last minute Um, but i'm just wondering what kind of project We could ask them for money for I mean like if you said the town has x number of dollars to do x at mill river In which case the inspector if they had additional blah blah blah would say that it was okay That might be something to apply for Yeah, because it has to do with accessibility Of a public space and public space Which is heavily used. Yeah, I'm sorry to interrupt I just wanted to announce that christine breastrupt is in the in the room as well as kody has joined the meeting Thank you, jennifer. Okay. Welcome kody. Welcome christine So I'm afraid you're in the hot seat right away. Do you know anything about the grant from mod? Um that we have applied for in the past successfully It's open now it closes september 30th and it has to do with accessibility features that the town would like to You know create or improve and I mean, I don't know who usually came up with what we should apply for Do you know anything about what we might do? Well in the past. This is chris. Um, yeah in the past we have applied for mod grants and we've been successful Maureen Pollock was the person who did that. Um, we have a new Planner here now, uh, rob. Whatchilla and I can talk to him about applying for an mod grant We haven't really talked about it among ourselves about What projects might be suitable for this year's application? Um, we'd probably also want to talk to jeremiah la plant who's the facilities director and rob mara. So I can certainly, um, initiate that conversation Um, and that can include it can include anything in an elementary school but not in the any of the regional schools, correct? Because that's not emmer's property. Is that right? I believe that's the case. Okay. All right. So what we talked about before you were able to come is possible doing something with the pavilion, uh, At mill river, I'm sure they're not going to fund a temporary railing. Um, it would have to be A permanent thing, but if the town had a certain amount of money put aside and it only needed x y z to create the Accountability feature the accessibility features. Maybe that would be good. Maybe mills would be a good option. Maybe if there's more money needed for the accessible traffic signals, maybe that would be good. Maybe I don't know anything about whether the libraries Um, then I guess that would be south emmer's Or north emmer's since jones isn't really going to be too functional Would need money. Um, and I don't know if there's any further interest in doing anything That bangs or town hall. I mean the town hall project that we know about which has to do with Trying to figure out how people are going to be able to get into town hall with a wheelchair I'm I don't even know where that is right now I think there marty. Do you know where that is right now? No I haven't heard had any conversations about it That was a conversation that marty and gilford and I had a number of months ago Yeah, and I don't know if anybody has discussed it. I mean it's sort of like Something we don't even know how to do right? um I mean that's correct. Yeah, that is correct Okay, I wonder if these in these application for grants I wonder if there should be one or two people from our committee to participate in it Because when I look at these things that need to be done There are so many of these things but in my opinion we should prioritize. What is a safety issue? Rather than more in the real world, I mean best of The conditions we should have also this or that, you know, but Based on necessity and about the danger of use Like in the pavilion because they are not going to fund a temporary ramp that is a wasted I know I mean a temporary railing. They are not going to fund that Because it's just going to be ripped out. They don't want to do anything like that. Am I right chris? Yes, that's right. Yep. Okay. I mean they are not going to fund that I'm not saying the town shouldn't fund it, but if you want mod money they want permanent solution or permanent access You know something that will make a long-term Impact on the accessibility of programs or the accessibility of places And we have to come up with something Perhaps we need to go back to that study Has an ADA transition plan? Yes, Jeremiah consults that frequently Jeremiah will plant the facilities director. Yep. Okay So I don't remember if you said we need to talk to him or Jason said we need to I said that he would be part of the conversation to decide what project we should apply for for the mod grant Okay, I um would there be any problem if someone from this committee Were involved in that conversation with Jeremiah and whomever else I think there wouldn't be but I need to check with Jeremiah and Rob Mora to see You know what they have in mind or if they've started anything So so it'd be good Because there is and I don't know how much money we're going to get not more than 25 or 30 000 Although it says you can apply for up to 200 or something, but nobody ever gets that Maureen told us if you look if you try to get too much you get nothing So she had a way to figure out what kind of Formulatively what kind of projects would fly and how much they cost and somehow she always got them She did she was excellent at that. Yeah um, I don't know anything about how she did that um, but Jeremiah Jeremiah may know How how to make because what we want is a successful application for something that's going to have Some long long impact and we could potentially I suppose we could have another Well, I don't know um I'm wondering If anybody from no people from mod would not consult on this. I don't think because they have to decide that's sort of a Yeah, um, anyway, okay, so Christine did you have anything that you wanted to report to us that wasn't just about those three Um projects that we asked jason about no, I didn't I I saw that list and I didn't have anything else to report Thank you. Okay. Does anybody have any other questions for jason or christine? One I want to give one positive comment the um roundabout they made on pomeroy lane and I have been using it It is uh, it is settling now to its final point and it is very functional And it speeds up the wait time one of my pcs come from South Hadley and she said she had to wait a long time in that Traffic light now. She just gets into the roundabout and it cuts on the time she was spending waiting for it So it was a good project and very nicely done Do we know anything about pedestrians? That I haven't When I have my hairdresser when I see her because her shop was across Across from the gas station and she had big concerns and a lot of people do But I will find out from her when I see her And I don't think anybody had any question about whether it was going to be good for cars But the big questions about were about whether it was going to be good for kids crossing the street to go to the school For kids, you know for anybody else crossing the street to access the businesses So I think the I I'm not ready to say that the Those parts aren't complete yet. So they're in the works. They're the next they're the next pieces of the puzzle to be built I have like I said, they have some of the sidewalks paved They have a lot of the ramps are formed But until they get that last two inches of asphalt on every ramp has a two inch drop off right now because they Filled in all the asphalt yet. So right now it's not great, but um when it's all said and done it'll be amazing There's going to be extra, you know, there's the crosswalks around the intersection. Then there's a crosswalk Further down near the bus stops that sort of if you're coming from like the usda buildings or the There's Hampshire gymnastics is back there and you wanted to cross over to get to the gas station or any of those There's a crosswalk Down there as well as the crosswalks at the intersection. So it's it's really You're talking about crossing 116 on the north of the Yeah north of the roundabout there's a crosswalk On that north end that's completely separate from the roundabout, but it has a splitter island So that it gives you great visibility. We have lights on each side, you know So it's very lit up at night and it's that that one's going to be excellent I think I think people are I see people crossing there now and they're already like, oh, this is so much safer because people aren't Hitting the gas to make it through a yellow light anymore. They know they're going to make it through this circle They have to slow down for it. So it's already one's already working really well Okay, even though it's not finished Yeah, good to know Excuse me. I'm gonna need to leave in about five or six minutes. Um, I wonder when is your next meeting? Well It's not going to be until like september 12. What about this thursday? Well, we don't have a quorum that we know about Um Actually We could talk to people here. How do people feel about this thursday to discuss the application from umas Um, it just a half an hour 330 So pamela doesn't have to extend her day And so that we can talk about the application From umas. They want her variance for a new building for an auditorium railing I mean, I have I wish we could get somebody from the project to talk about it because I have questions Actually, that's what I was going to say um, I can't Be involved in this but I spoke with the project manager this morning and They would really like to be able to present this to you. It is complicated. It's not an auditorium It's actually similar to what we saw at the student center The students was badly done According to the state building inspector who was sorry. He approved it in public. He was sorry and it's exactly what I thought of It's exactly what I thought of marty except this is new construction. It's not even a retrofit So I was like, why are we dealing with this again? In construction documents, I think it would love to meet these guys I think it would be very beneficial for you to meet with the designers and the code consultant Okay So we have to find a time when we can do that that's a 330 on thursday seems to be a good time for them I just got that confirmed Oh, uh, I can make it. We need four people sarin. Are you able to be there? Yes, uh, Jim Are you able to be there thursday at 330? Which thursday? I'm sorry. There's just two days from now because they have one week before the aab I can't do it. I can't do it. I'm this thursday. No, I can't. No, okay. Looks like kody can. How about kody? Looks like kody can. Looks like kody can and what about ian? Yes, I can. You can. Okay, good. Then we'll do it and hopefully we can get a lease But wait, did a lease give you information? Pamela? Yeah, a lease is not available on thursday. Not available. Yeah, but Well, so sarin and sarin and ian and kody and i Can be there. Okay. I yeah, that's four people and Pamela, I sent you a list of Of the recipients for a zoom Okay, thank you. Yes, if you could send that out, that would be good, then they'll be there Can I just ask you marty? Is this the same state inspector that we dealt with about the other UMass project? Yes It is david holmes is the inspector for UMass Okay, okay Um, and he approved this one too He must have had a better reason this time Well, no, he's he's that's why he's that's why there's a variance request Okay Because he did not approve it. It's not a matter of his approval or not He doesn't he doesn't have purview on this Other than Initial and that and the response is to ask for a variance Got it. Okay, so they will explain this thursday at 3 30 We don't have the three days posting but we can do this as an emergency meeting. Yeah, right? Okay, no, this is great 3 30 thursday. Thank you so much. Thank you for arranging it with them marty. Oh, yeah Okay, chris was asking when we meet again next month That is I'm looking at my calendar. It seems like it is a 12 I'm right number. That's correct. Yeah, chris. I'm sorry. That's thank you. September 12 I'm sorry. I I I tried to answer that but I got Wait, wait, um, so we at september 12th. You only have like two and a half weeks To write a grant. Is that enough? Probably it is although I think it's enough to write it usually takes longer to decide what to write about so That's what we have to figure out so Okay, so you have like five weeks to come up with a Could you inform pamela When the people that are going to make this decision are going to meet and she can Let the committee know and we can figure out if any of us Would want to or could attend Could you I will do that. Yeah. Okay. Okay. That's great Thank you Myra, this is Ian Coming back to an earlier part of the conversation when we were talking about roads And state budget for roads. Um, and you were wondering about the fair share money for that I have three numbers here One is 150 million statewide for the coming year And that's broken down into 100 million for construction and reconstruction of municipal roads and bridges Which amherst could could access probably And then the other 50 million is in construction preservation reconstruction and repair of state bridges But it would be that Presumably that first 100 million that amherst would access Well, that'll probably be distributed by formula, right? Does it does it come by grant? I don't know that I would hope it's by chapter 90 formula. Yeah, that's the Easiest to access and the most fairly Distributed the grants are very hit or miss. Yes. And also this is in addition to previous money that's in the budget for roads and bridges That's not going to help us with this um one 16 project because it's for f y 24 Right. Um, so we can't access any of that money until next Fiscal year, which will be spring Okay, christine. Thank you so much jason. Thank you so much. I appreciate you're giving us so much of your time Thank you. Thank you Yeah Thank you Thank you Jennifer again I just wanted to say that there is time to post the meeting within the 48 hours as long as the post by 330 Perfect, okay That's great. So we could well. We don't want to add anything else to it. We just want to add this Um, you mass request for money for the computer. I don't know what they're calling it building um, okay, so the next thing is Um, many of us went to the um Northampton meeting, um Last month where at which they showed Crip camp the movie with, um, Judy human And what she did and then there was a pretty interesting conversation after Ian was there Seren was there I was there and Elise was there um And there have been some follow-up Uh emails pretty much they did a survey about whether people want to do it again And people seem to think that they would like to get together again So I don't know what role this committee wants to play in any of that So I I'm just bringing it up to see if there's anything that you think we could work on Primarily the people were from Northampton and Amherst There was one woman who was very articulate from Holyoke who was I believe she was mobility impaired. Does that right seren? Yeah, so Yeah, yeah, okay, and um, so she was from Holyoke Pretty much everybody else was from Northampton Um, and then there was us and it was a very nice congenial group of people that we all thought we could have more And Pamela was there. I'm sorry. Yeah, at least then I wouldn't have been there if Pamela wasn't there Um, and it was very nice of Pamela to to write, you know, and I so I really wonder I wonder if there's anybody who has any interest in Taking the lead with connecting with them. If there's anything we want specifically to work on with them I just thought that I'd bring it up because it just happened and it was very I thought useful meeting Yeah, and they had a wonderful space Which was very nice very inviting space Right because they have a senior center in Northampton. Yeah, I know Anyway, um But you know, where's the money going to go? Is it going to go to a senior center? Is it going to go to a mill river? Is it there's not enough money for everything? That's the problem So where where are we going to put the money anyway? I don't know if anyone Um and Pamela feel free to be a participant here Um because you might have uh, you know other observations So I don't I'm very happy to open it to Ian sarin Marty, um Marty by the way, are you flooded out in vermont? No, no, we didn't get flooded. We it was the road to get home was flooded And washed out Okay, we're lucky high enough Okay All right, um, so sarin in Pamela, do you have any observations that might be helpful for us going forward? Well, I mean I would think that it might be a good to have a partnership with them, you know, we could keep each other Inform and when there's some advocacy work, which they bring something it seems like they're very active group So I think that might You know the two towns working together might be a good idea I can't think of what we can do right now but in The future we should share each other We're thinking of doing this. What do you think or it might be a good to have partnership with them?  Yeah, I I agree a partnership and and um One of the things I valued about it was the community building aspect of it. Um, It would which goes hand in hand with partnership and both in terms of Advocacy issues, but but also just in terms of building sort of a stronger sense of community around the issue of disability advocacy and disability justice Um, and uh, I I'm trying to remember. I think there may have been some folks from Franklin County Either Greenfield or somewhere else But as you mentioned it was primarily Northampton and Amherst people Yeah So, um Does anyone want to take the lead In communicating with them don't all answer at once I can I can do that You can do that. Yay. Great This is good. Okay. So I actually Don't know Who the chair of the north hampton or who the person from north hampton would be but I know Keith What was his last name? With a b yeah, I think it's benoit benoit. Yeah, I think you're right. Okay So He's the Pamela of north hampton from what I can tell He has a different background. I think he's a planner um But he's the Pamela from north hampton And Ian if you want to Contact him and find out who on the north hampton They have a commission on disability Or disability commission or whatever you call it They they are that status But if if you want to find out Who the person that you might want to talk to about Possibly, you know, how we could work together Um, I think that would be great if you want to be our liaison To them sounds good I love it. I love it. Thank you Okay, now we need to talk about the commission on disability Pat Said that she pat de angeles is our liaison to the town council She is not able to be here today, but she sent an email to Pamela and to me um About Well, I actually wrote to her. I don't even remember what the order of any of this was anymore But I wrote to her and I oh, yeah, I guess a week ago. I sent her the applicable Uh mass general laws, which I believe are Something j 40 something j and 22 g something I wrote it all down and I sent it to her um that these there are two Of mass general laws that need to be adopted for us to become a commission the first one Is just making us a commission and there is pretty good argument for that because according to Jeff duggan at mod The commission is a standing committee whereas a town committee has a fixed duration and a fixed project a fixed purpose And once the duration and purpose have been run They are disbanded whereas a commission is ongoing and since this committee Has been going for 30 something years. I think we're probably already a commission So I don't know how the the town Council could vote against that The second one that's 22 g Is the one that's a little stickier because it has to do with money Um, I went to that presentation at mod that they did a couple weeks ago On zoom um, and they had a number of presentations from towns Um that has to do with a variety of things but one thing that came out of several of the towns Was that they they are commissions? They have been approved to receive all of the HP violation monies Commissions are allowed to have a budget. They're allowed to have an appropriation from the town They're allowed to receive gifts and they are allowed to receive or They are If 22 g is passed they are Um emboldened to receive the parking violation funds Which apparently according to the mass general laws At the moment can be between 100 and 300 dollars and a number of communities have raised it to 300 Which is a lot more painful than 100 um So I don't know how the town would feel How the town council would feel about That amount of money whatever it is My sense is that somebody pat or somebody laughed it off and said we'd hardly collect any money On hp violations. I don't know anything about that. Do you Pamela or jennifer? This is pamela. I've been told that the fines The amount of money that's collected um in fines is pretty small But I have not seen the number so it would probably be worthwhile to actually find out What the Amount was that was received in you know a fiscal year so that you would know what that amount is Okay, so Saren Jim People who would notice these things that I couldn't notice Do you know very much about The amount of illegal parking that you see Do do you see a lot of illegal parking? Do you feel like there is Not so much or that there's an enforcement problem. I really know nothing Marty too. I mean anybody who can see parking space And who's in I personally don't see a lot in the way of violations. I mean Probably like everybody else I Haven't been downtown as much since covid started and I don't know you just get out of the habit, you know But nevertheless whenever I go buy spaces they seem to be most of the time they're empty We're just fine. They should be empty unless somebody with a placard is parking there. So I don't I don't know I mean Saren's experience may be very different because Um, she's going to be looking for a space downtown. So I don't know. I mean, I guess my question that's associated with that is What do these commissions do with that money? Yeah All kinds of projects Like one of them had a fair amount of money that had accumulated and that they got from gifts and they were able to fund Uh, I don't think it whether it was Boy Scouts or a boys club or a boy, you know A community organization that wanted to do something that would make their facility More accessible or that would allow for more accessible participation in their events Even in their place. I mean, there were some really interesting Projects that didn't have to do with we're going to fund a sidewalk. We're going to fund this We're going to fund to that but it had to do with civic organizations That were interested in increasing the level of accessibility of their Activities and that didn't have the kind of money that they needed in order to do that um, we could get a list of those things that That jeff duggan knows about um, and he seemed to be pretty aware Of a lot of the kinds of things, but it's um, you don't I mean you might want to fund something for the town But I think they were funding private civic organizations To be more accessible Myra, yeah a I look at it a little different from you are looking at it right now It seems like our prime goal should be To upgrade ourselves from committee to commission And when we get money involved with it It becomes quick pretty difficult whether the town really is actively Writing tickets for violators of hp places and things like that. It's beyond that that But when you say what can we want to keep that money? Then this they will have second thoughts about it So I would not really go with it. I will just say we are working we have been Functioning for the past 30 years or so So we think it is time for us to become a commission My main goal in doing that is they will pay more respect to what our Recommendations are they will take it take us seriously rather than as compared from it's coming from a committee So that's my main goal and then maybe we can say that we also would like to see If the parking tickets are over a certain amount Then we can tap into 50 percent of it or something and maybe In my opinion rather than using it to support other organizations We could look at it to have a very respectable consultant to see what can we do to improve this project Like for example that intersection thing, you know between Amherst college and 116 I have no idea. I haven't seen it. I can kind of visualize it But in a case like that we can just find somebody who does that as a consulting work And maybe use it for those whether it would be enough or not But I wouldn't start it with the money part of it So you would say divide eight j and 22 g that we want We want to become the commission first. We'll talk money later. Yes, exactly. Exactly Okay. How do other people feel about that? Is Ian. I like that idea. Also just anecdotally in terms of seeing Parking spots be used by people who don't have placards I Feel like I see it frequently I don't really keep track of the numbers of times I see it In my head or or list it anywhere. I just know that I get annoyed and aggravated when I do see it happen And I did see it yesterday at Northampton Starbucks. Someone pulled into the Spot spot without a placard and Ran to get their coffee and went back to leave So I think raising the the fine level would be a good idea But also focusing on becoming a commission first would would maybe be more Effective Yeah, maybe we can yeah, I think so and I was at the town hall Trying to get sworn in and unfortunately the clerk wasn't there It was a struggle to get into the town hall.  That's another story But there was the sign and it is 300 dollars fine There and I said, whoa, that is so high. That's what I thought personally 100 to me is Good enough But 300 dollars 300 dollars people won't do it 100. They might don't figure I get away with it. Maybe I'll do, you know 300 they're not gonna do it And I don't know Um, that's okay, uh, cody Marty, do you have any opinion about how we should do this? I think I'd leave the money out of it, too Okay Okay, so uh, cody, did you want to say something? Yeah Just now You're asking is there any state support if we were to become a commission? So So can I respond please? Yeah, so, um, I I think that The becoming a commission does create an incentive for the town council To provide an appropriation To support the work of the commission However, uh, and this is based on my very limited experience The support from the town council for other commissions is relatively small and I'm cody I think you're asking like how how do we meet the gap financially between like doing the work of the commission and And um, and if you bypass seeking the funds and I I think there's always going to be a financial need for more support to do the work of the Future commission probably more than what the town will allocate. So it's always going to be a combination of Looking at grants looking at support for mod seeing what Is on tap by, you know, chris and the planning department in order to meet that financial The financial needs of doing the work I do think that If you choose to pursue um receiving the financial support under the State law what I remember jeff duggan saying and jeff is uh, duggan is from the mass office on disability Is that in his community? He gave us an example where they actually Collected the fines and held on to them for several years and when they had accumulated Enough to tackle a larger project that's when they expended the the money and um the example that I remember from his I think he's in situate. I want to say he's in situ. I think he is right his example from situate was that they They saved their fine money for several years and then they used the money to fund a project that would create more beach More accessibility to the public beaches in situate so Something that the town probably had on their list, right? But Further down and because they collected the fines they were able to completely fund that project So I I you know, I think that it might Uh, it might be worthwhile not to Uh, to make a decision to forgo the money Um, especially if it's a small amount and you're going to have to Uh, accumulated over a long period of time before you're able to really Expend it on on a On an identified need So the question I would ask is are we able to Let's say we took sarin's advice and did not Deal with the financial aspect of 22 G right now But that we if we become a commission under eight j do we Have the right to have A budget line so that even if the town didn't put anything in it If perhaps there could be you're allowed to accept donations if you're a commission There some of the commissions around the state actually have appropriations That they are able to use five five thousand ten thousand twenty five thousand. I even heard That they you know that they that they you know got obviously money from a town In a budget it doesn't Doesn't sit in the account. It doesn't roll over so you spend it or you lose it but um, I I I don't know if we're allowed to have the bank account without the eight without the 22 g and They did collect yeah, that's exactly right the way you described it pamela. I think they bought weak beach wheelchairs um And I forget what else picnic tables That were accessible. Um, it was like that Um, so they didn't do anything about a bath house because that's way too expensive But they did buy beach wheelchairs and they did by picnic tables um, so um I mean if we become 20 if they if we do 22 g I don't know how much money they would even have to lose. I don't know I mean it would be an interesting question to find out the answer to Who collects those fines? I don't even know The I think the fines would be collected by um So the the police, right? Uh, who would be issuing a ticket and I don't know whether it's going to the police department, but the the Citation would be issued by the police department or by the parking enforcements. Um, because Sir two guys who are So maybe the collector knows the collector's office. Yeah, I would say Yeah, town clerk. Yeah the collector the collector's office. Yeah Yeah, and they probably know what it's for so it'd be an interesting question Um, yeah, we can find out from the collector how much How much they get in a year? I mean the town isn't going to die if it's like, you know $750, right, you know, they're just yeah, sure you can have it. They'll probably do that. Um But if it's a substantial amount of money, maybe they won't I don't know. So Given what Pamela said, do we want to ask pat to Talk pat said she would meet with the town manager and I believe lin Um, who is the president of the town council? Um to Talk about this. So the question is what do we want to tell pat? That we want to forgo 22 G or we want them to consider doing all of it so that we can start to accumulate funds 22 g is the right to become a or no 22 g is the money Yeah, yeah If we have enough discussion, maybe we should put out to vote Right at the moment you want to start with America in a rough course like it. So I'm just going to suggest that someone make a motion Right. Yep for you to but we don't know what we're moving So are we interested in moving that we we ask the town council to approve our becoming a commission under Mass general or whatever it is 48 8 j which is the map is the that one And 22 g or not yet with 22 g Well, I'm not a voting person yet, but um, you know going back to the movie crypt camp I think we should go for everything that that's coming to us basically Which would include 22 g. I mean, we're not talking about a lot of money, but um, hey I think people with disabilities should be treated with respect and uh This has been a committee for way too long and a commission is the right way to go And so is a source of income for the commission. That's just me Okay, you're just as important as everybody else. All right, what a Further. Yes, cody was that cody who said Yes, that was cody Go Okay, I didn't understand the end of it Go forward with the commission with all that's attached with it. Is that we said cody? Yes Okay, so agreeing with jim um What do you think ian? I Or I'll second that and vote I Okay, so we'll we need a motion now Oh, you made the motion, okay Okay, thank you. All right, and and ian seconded perfect Okay, so the motion has been made To ask the town council to approve both 8a and 22 g Okay, um, so we could vote I mean unless somebody wants to say something Is there any discussion beyond what we've had already? No, okay, all those in favor of the motion made by cody to To request funding over under 8 g 8 j and 22 g Say yes Yeah, I guess we Okay, I guess we need that roll call marty I sarin. Yes cody yeah ian I Yes, and I'll and I'll vote yes as well. Okay, so we're voted five Oh, and jim can't vote but jim. Can you get yourself able to vote before the next meeting? I'm gonna do my best. Okay Um, um How hard is that online course by the way? You're wet. How hard is the conflict of interest course? Wait, I missed that So I'm sorry the online course a course in conflict of interest starts off got it. Okay Oh, I got it. Yeah, you didn't do that yet I I think you can get get approved. You can get this so before doing that um, okay, so I think That's everything so the vote is Five Nothing and we we can't even consider jim a member yet. So he doesn't even get to be an abstention or anything Okay, all right. So I think that's everything that we were going to talk about At this meeting and that what so what we need is a letter to the state about that intersection And I'm going to call the collector and find out How much money comes in for hp? Um, so does anybody want to take a shot at drafting a letter to the state? I would be happy to edit But if anybody wants to take a shot at drafting a letter to the state about how we need to How we're very concerned about that intersection and how it is not accessible and how they have kept it inaccessible all summer and that we hope that it will be Completed before school starts I don't even know who to send it to D o t Yeah, I would already. Do you know who they are? Do you know where they are? You who to to No, okay Knows, yeah gilford Knows, yeah, okay. Okay. All right. Well, I can try to write the letter And the the call to the collector is easy and I'll send a note to pat that we voted About the other thing. All right. So four of us are going to meet with the architects on Thursday afternoon at 3 30 Okay, correct. Yes, perfect perfect And thank you for telling us. It's very complicated marty because the first thing I know you can't talk about it But the first thing I thought of when I read it was here we go again. You mass another railing. They don't want to build And this is another this is like new construction So why couldn't they have made it a little bit wider or taken one seat out? So you can put a rail in the middle and people can go both directions and hold on to the rail I'm just very confused. So I'm going to ask them Yes, I think you need to talk to them Okay, because I apparently have I have it wrong, correct Okay The good question. I don't know the actual number that it has to be for 240 but we can ask the architects on Thursday, yes okay All right, so if everybody we need all four of the people to be there and apparently we're going to have the architect and maybe the The inspector who is no you're going to have a code consultant Okay, and the architect and the project manager at least Oh, wow, that's a lot of people. That's more than actually more than may have more than that Wow, okay. They want this badly Yes All right, thank you And we will see those of you Thursday who can make it in cody sarin and me And jim if you can get yourself sworn before thursday you can come and it would be really probably a good idea Well, actually he can come even if he's not a member. That's true, but he said he couldn't come though I don't anticipate being in state on thursday, so that's okay Okay, got it. All right. I forgot about that Okay, all right. So thank you everybody And we'll September 12th is the next meeting other than the thursday Okay, and if anybody comes up like if you wake up in the middle of the night and go Oh, I know what we need to do. Just please write it to pamela All right, he wears days and nights. Okay. Thank you. Thank you. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye.


And now stay tuned for the program that has rated tops and popularity for a longer period of time than any other West Coast program in radio history. The Signal Oil Program, The Whistler. Signal Girl! Signal, the famous Go Farther gasoline.  I am The Whistler. And I know many things before I walk by night. I know many strange tales hidden in the hearts of men and women who have stepped into the shadows. Yes, I know the nameless terrors of which they dare not speak. And now for the Signal Oil Company, The Whistler's strange story. Last message. Only a few days before, Dave Leonard had told himself that there was no place quite like San Francisco. It was thrilling to be a part of it. The hills, the bay, the clanging cable cars. Only a few days before, Dave had been happy with his job, his surroundings, his home and his wife. And now suddenly that was all changed, wiped away somehow. The city was a frightening place. His job, something that was threatened, his home, his wife and things that he must give up, be put behind him as rapidly as possible as they be threatened too. And that was why Dave walked down Geary Street and across Powell for the airline's office. Inside he approached the ticket window and asked for space on the very next plane for Los Angeles. Here you are, 1346. Thank you. Is the flight on schedule? Will I be able to get away soon? The limousine for the airport will be loading in 20 minutes, Mr. Leonard. You'll be on your way by, let's see, 430. 430, good. Hello, Dave, are you going somewhere? I, uh, yes. No, I don't think that's such a good idea to you. Would you mind refunding Mr. Leonard's money, please? What? He isn't going anywhere. He's changed his mind. What? Right, Dave? Not just staying around so we can talk some more? Uh, yes. Yes, he's right. Forget the whole thing. Whatever you say, sir. You scoop up your ticket money, Dave. Hurry outside. It's even more foreboding now, the city. The walls of its tall building seem to close in around you, don't they? Because he's back again. Apparently not letting you out of his sight for the past three days since he first found you. And now he's falling into step behind you, isn't he? No chance to run away. Ah, that's better, Dave. Much better. Are you spinging a hurry? I've been right with you for the last three days. Why don't we stop in here and have a drink, huh? Chat some more. All right. You're calling it. Ah, it's a good bourbon, huh, David? Ah, you haven't touched yours. Get to it, will you, Tommy? What do you want from me? Why have you chased me all the way across the country? Who sent you? Easy, Dave. Easy.  Honest, I ran onto you quite by accident. I don't believe it. It's true. Except for an accident, I'd have gone on like everybody else. Believing exactly what it says on those New York police records. What the paper said at the time. Let's see, how did it go? Man leaps to death from river bridge. Stop it. You didn't do it at all, did you? Just made it look that way. The notes you left into your coat, the fake. I couldn't get any places Marvin knows, Tommy. A man with a record isn't always welcome. You saved your time? That didn't seem to make any difference. Okay, so you got away with it. Working up pretty nice here, I understand, huh? Good job, pretty wife. It's all over. Why? Because of you. No matter how you found me, Tommy. You have. That's all that's important. Ah, you don't have to change anything. I'll play ball. I'm trying to live decently, Tommy.  I've managed to these past six years. Almost seven, isn't it? Yeah, sure. Marvin knows we'll be legally dead soon. At least seven years since you staged the big jump. Tommy, I'm not gonna take this. I don't have to. Easy, easy. Sit down, sit down. You know, you better think it over, Dave. They gang, they can play pretty rough. Maybe they think you talk too much. I didn't, you know that. Maybe not, but you're not too much.  If they could find Marvin knows, they might like to silence him. Maybe his wife, too. Stop it. Yeah, of course you could go to the police, Dave. Cut your throat and mine and your wife's. I'm afraid it would cost you a lot more than your job. You see what I mean? Yes, I see what you mean. Then I think we understand one another. Well, I'll keep in touch, Dave. Let you know how and when you can help me. Oh, and meanwhile, don't try to skip town anymore. You just might make me sore. And I wouldn't want to have to take care of you, Ma. Dave. Yes, Dave, it's all changed. In the surprising arrival of one man, you're all associate, Tommy Prentice, one man who can ruin your life, strike terror in your heart, cause the all familiar warmth and friendliness of the city you've come to love to turn into what shilled atmosphere of menace and despair. Back at home, you can't even bring yourself to talk about it. To the one person who's brought you more comfort and understanding than you'd ever dream possible. Sue, if you don't mind, I don't want to talk anymore. Dave, there's something bothering you. I know it. Something's on your mind. No, there isn't. I'm just tired, that's all. Today was the afternoon you left the office early, didn't you? You called the office? At three o'clock. You hadn't come back from lunch, the girl said. You shouldn't have called. Where were you, Dave? I was detained, a customer. You talked to a customer from noon until after three? Maybe. What of it? Is that all you're gonna say? Please, Sue, I was out on business. Isn't that enough? You have to cross-examine me. I'm... I'm sorry. Oh, forget it, Sue. I didn't mean to... Look, I don't know what's wrong with me. What do you say we go out tonight, huh? For a walk or to a movie? Get our minds off it. Of what, Dave? Okay, so I'll go out alone. There must be some way to stop these questions. I'll be back when you see me. Even as you hurl the words at Sue and rush from the house, you're sorry, aren't you, Dave? But your mind is spinning with confusion, question marks. The hours of walking the streets alone fail to provide an answer. Then as you start toward home again, and the dismal sound of the foghorn moans in at you from the waters near Golden Gate Bridge, a thought does occur. A dread final thought, but something that could provide an answer. Another bridge gave you an answer almost seven years ago, didn't it, Dave? And now with everything you've ever wanted and worked for being threatened, you find yourself thinking of staging another such act. Only this time it would be for Tommy Prentice. And what would appear to everyone as a simple suicide would actually be murder. You're still thinking about it as you slip the key in the latch and let yourself into the house and cross to the bedroom. Dave? Sue, I thought you were asleep. I couldn't. Not with you away. No, don't turn on the light. Sue, I'm sorry about this evening. I didn't mean any of those things I said. I know. Anyway, I'm not mixed up anymore. Everything's clear in my mind. I've been worrying unnecessarily. Everything's going to be all right again. And soon. Summertime is vacation time and long trips naturally make motorists think about gasoline mileage. That's why every year, particularly at this time, signal gains lots of new customers, drivers who've heard about the go farther gasoline and decide to try signal themselves. Naturally, they expect to get good mileage. But what sometimes comes as a pleasant surprise to them is the improved performance they enjoy with signal. And that, my friends, is the point of my story tonight.  You save gasoline with quick starting, save gasoline with smooth thrilling pickup, save gasoline with full responsive power, the kind of performance in short that makes driving more fun on vacations or anytime. So if you haven't yet acquired the signal habit, just try a tank full or two. You'll find there's more pleasure, too, when you go farther with signal. Signal, signal, signal gasoline. Your car will go far, will go for the gasoline. It changed everything, didn't it, Dave? Your plans with your wife Sue, hopes for the future. Everything was changed when Tommy Prentis walked into your life from the past and recognized you as Marvin Knowles, a man he'd known in the East, a man who once served time in prison and was trying his best to live it down with a new life in San Francisco as David Leonard. Yes, it was all changed. Tommy is a threat, but you think you found the answer the one way out. And while you hate the thought of murder, you find yourself trying to figure it out and plan a way to talk Tommy into the trap. And finally, you're rewarded with a remarkable bit of luck as Tommy admits his reasons for coming to the West Coast in the first place. I gotta tell you, Dave, there's no use hiding it. They're after me. The police? Yeah, them, too, sure, but I'm not afraid of the police. It's the old gang. They think I double-crossed them. Of course you didn't. That's beside the point. Duke Watson and Frankie Dawson are here in town. I gotta get away from them, Dave. You're gonna help me, see? Sure. I figured there'd be something I'd have to do. I haven't much money, Tommy. You have some and you have a car. I want you to drive me up north someplace, Seattle, maybe on into Canada. But I can't do that. You've got to. Or else I'll get word to Duke and Frankie that you and your wife are here. It's gotta be this way. If you don't, it's my neck. I can't just drop out of sight like you did. And if I was to travel with a man and his wife, they'd have a rougher time tracing me. Wait a minute, Tommy. What? You just said something about dropping out of sight. Tommy. Yeah? Tommy, I faded out of the picture almost seven years ago, remember? I made everybody think I jumped off a bridge, committed suicide. So you fooled everybody but me, so what? So why can't you do the same thing? I'd help you, Tommy. Tell you what to do. You could write a note, say you were tired of running from Frankie Dawson and Duke Watson who were trying to get you. Wait a minute, wait a minute. You really think that I... Did I make it, Tommy? Didn't I? Yeah, yeah, yeah, sure you did. Yeah, but you had a different reason. You wanted to go straight and couldn't get a break. What do reasons matter, Tommy? The main thing is you'll throw them off your track. You can travel alone. Go anywhere. Somebody else. Yeah, yeah, yeah, sure I could. Hey, I think you've hit it, Dave.  All I gotta do is write a suicide note, leave it on a bridge with my coat and disappear. Duke Watson and Frankie Dawson will think I kill myself on account of the gang, huh? That's right, Tommy. Yeah. That's all you have to do. Leave a suicide note. Yeah. You'll drive me north? Yeah. I'll drive you. He's fallen into your trap, hasn't he, Dave? Yes, in your relief. Yet far from pleased at the thought of what you've decided to do. You don't like to think about it, do you? What you plan to do out there in the fog. The way you'll silence Tommy Prentice. But you can't see any other way. You don't want to kill, but you decide you have to. That evening, you sit in the den pretending to read the newspaper, struggling to conceal the panic and the terror mounting within you. Dave. Yes, Sue? I've been thinking, why don't we run down to Carmel for a few days? It would do us good to get away. Yeah, I suppose so. Again, remember? When was it? Three years ago? Dave, you're not listening. What's the matter? Huh? The matter? Nothing. Something's been on your mind. Something rather serious, I'm afraid. Won't you tell me what it is? Really, Sue? It's nothing at all. You used to be able to talk over our little problems. Sort of iron things out together. Iron things out together. Yeah. Dave, I suppose I'm going to sound awfully silly, but, well, is there someone else? Someone else? A woman. Oh, no. No, Sue, nothing like that. Telling, how could you ever think that? I... I didn't really.  Dave. But you're right. There is something on my mind. And it is serious. I'm in trouble, Sue. Dave, you... Look, you haven't done anything again. No, no, no, nothing like that. It's just... Well, it's the old routine again. The old gang won't leave me alone. Someone's found out the old crowd. Yes, Tommy Prentice. I ran into him on the street one day. He found out I changed my name. He found out everything. I see. What's he going to do? Well, then give it to him. Give him all we have. And it'll be finished. No, that's not as simple as that. He wouldn't stop there. But if we didn't have any more money to give... He says he just wants me to help him get away, but he'll probably force me to work on a job with him before he gets through. No, Dave, you can't do that. I haven't any choice, Sue. Yes, you have. We'll go away, Dave. Far away. They'll never find us. Tommy would find us. So might somebody else in the old gang then we'd have to run again. And for you later. That's where I was when you called the office. But it's no use. Please, Dave, we'll leave tonight. Right now. I tell you, it's no use. You know what'll happen if we don't, Dave? One job with Tommy, then there'll be another and another. Some night I'll be called down to the morgue to identify... Sue, Sue, darling.  You can't go back. But running away is just no good. It wouldn't work. Please, darling. Going somewhere else. What else can we do? What else? Yes. How else can you be rid of this man? There is a way. I've thought it all out. A very simple way. What? No. No, Dave, you couldn't do anything like that. You couldn't. No, I guess not. I guess I couldn't kill him. Even if I could get away with it. All right, sure. We'll run again. She's right, isn't she, Dave? There is a chance, a slim chance, you can slip away from Tommy Prentiss. Start life all over again in some small town. While you finish packing, Sue hurries down to the garage and drives your car around to the alley back of your apartment house. When she returns, you're ready. You pick up the suitcases and start for the door. Oh, hiya, Sue, Dave. I was just going to knock. Come on over, we'll have a little party. Brad, hello. We were just leaving. We're driving to Carmel. We want to make it before midnight. Well, Dave, oh boy, you've got lots of time. Come on, just one drink. Brad, a rain check. It's terribly important that we leave right now. We can't explain now, Brad. We'll be back in a few days. Come on, Sue. Get in the car, Sue. I'll put the suitcase in the... Hello, Dave. Tommy. Evening, Mrs. Lennon. I'm sure you are, Mrs. Lennon. You folks going someplace? Uh, yes, we are... Running out on an old pal. Oh, no, no, you see, my boss called up and he wants me to go upstate, a business. Is that so? Yeah, yeah. It's a good trip, huh? Well, only for a few days. I'll be back in the middle of my week. You're getting in touch with me? That's right. As soon as I get back. Uh-uh. I'm going with you, pal. Well, but Tommy... I said I'm going with you. Now get in, both of you. We'll drive by my place and pick up my stuff.  That bridge, don't you thought of, was a great idea. It's no use, Dave. You'll never be able to run away from Tommy Prentice. You're certain of that now.  You know she's struggling to hold back a flood of tears. The anger, the hatred within you grows. Hatred for the man on the back seat of your car. And hatred toward yourself for what you've done to Sue.  Okay, folks. I'll get my stuff. Be right out.  Yeah. We'll wait. Just make sure you do. Hand over the car keys. I said we'd wait. I said the keys. All right. Here. Thanks, pal. Be right back, folks.  I'll handle this alone. No. No, Dave. I'm not going to leave you. Sue, I don't want you to get mixed up in this. Forget it. Forget me. Go back to the apartment. I won't, Dave. I can't leave you. Come on, darling. Let's get away from here. Sue... I mean it, Dave. Right now. We can walk, talk it out, and decide what to do. Let him have the car. Please, darling. All right, Sue. Maybe a walk will help. You wander along the streets. Sue clings tightly to your arm.  Yes, you walk for hours trying to make up your mind. And finally, quite late, you begin to come to a decision. We'll go to the police, Dave. Have Tommy Prentice arrested. Let your past come out. It's the only right way out of us. There's more to it than that, dear. Even if I went to the police and they got Tommy, he'd find a way to let Duke and Frankie know who I am, where I live, but I'm here. They think I know too much, and what's more important, they figured I told you too much. You realize what that means, don't you? Yes. But I'd prefer to take a chance on anything than have you on the wrong side of the law. You'd risk being killed? Yes. I'd rather than have you risk everything we've built together. You're wonderful, Sue. Not wonderful. I just believe in you. Come on, darling, we'll go to the police. Tell them everything. All right, Sue. All right, let's find a police station. Before starting on any trip this summer, you'll want to have a new map. And naturally, you'll want one that's accurate, complete, and handy to use, which describes a signal map prepared expressly for signal by Rand McNally. It's a big map, jumbo size for quick, easy reading, and it has the latest accordion fold, so it's easy to handle. In addition to Rand McNally accuracy, signal maps include a list of interesting places to visit, plus a Western States mileage chart, plus enlarged sections of metropolitan areas, plus a traveler's radio guide showing where to tune in for your favorite programs as you travel. The highway map is yours free at any signal station. And if you need a street map, when you're in any of the larger Pacific Coast cities, signal dealers have them too free, of course. Start planning your vacation driving now with a good map. Stop in and get a free signal map at your signal service station. Better do it tomorrow. Signal, signal, signal gasoline. Your car will go far, will go for the gasoline. You've made your decision, haven't you, Dave?  So you're going to the police. You're going to tell them everything. Tell them about your fake suicide in New York seven years ago that you're not David Leonard, but an ex-convict named Marvin Knowles.   And now after hours of walking along the city streets and talking things out, the two of you step into a police station and approach the officer at the desk. Sergeant? Hmm? Oh, what can I do for you, sir? I, uh... Well, uh, my name is David Leonard. Well, that is, since I arrived in San Francisco... Leonard? Oh, yes, David Leonard. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Got the report right here. Stolen car. I hope you had that ensured, Mr. Leonard. What? That's pretty badly smashed up, I'm afraid. Well, I don't understand. Well, it happens it was quite a gun battle over in the Mission District.  I guess he must have stolen it. Anyway, he wrecked the car trying to get away from those strong-arm boys. Did they get away? No, we caught him. Block away from the shooting. A couple of hoods from back east. Frankie Dawson and Duke Watson. What about the man that stole my car? Prentice. Prentice? Died on the way to the emergency hospital. Prentice is dead? Yes, ma'am.  I'm awful sorry. Oh, it's all right. We don't mind the car. Oh. Now we can always get another car. Well, the funny thing about those guys trying to kill Prentice, they didn't know he was going to commit suicide anyway. They'd have avoided a murder rap if they had. Suicide. Yeah, yeah. Had a note in his pocket. Figured on jumping off the bridge. Said he was tired of running from those hoods. Let that whistle be your signal for the signal oil program, the Whistler, each Sunday night at the same time. Meantime, signal oil company and the friendly independent dealers who help you go farther with signal gasoline, hope you'll remember. Regardless of what gasoline you use, you'll enjoy more miles of happy driving if you drive at sensible speeds, obey traffic regulations and avoid taking chances.  Featured in tonight's story were Bill Foreman as the Whistler, David Ellis, Virginia Gregg, Bill Conrad and Larry Dobkin. The Whistler was produced and directed by W. Allen with story by Joel Malone, music by Wilbur Hatch, and was transmitted overseas by the Armed Forces Radio Service. The Whistler was entirely fictional and all characters portrayed on the Whistler are also fictional. Any similarity of names or resemblance to persons living or dead is purely coincidental. Remember to tune in at the same time next Sunday when the signal oil company will bring you another strange story by the Whistler. David Miller speaking for the Signal Oil Company. Stay tuned now for our Miss Brooks starring E. Varden, which follows immediately over most of the stations. This is the CBS Radio Network.


The vice presidential candidate of the People's Democratic Party PDP and governor of Delta State Senator Ifain Okowa has commiserated with the Delta Police Command and family's off-police officers killed by unknown government in a number of states. According to a statement released on Saturday by the Delta State government, the officers inspector Laki Ale, inspector Celestin Muadyoku, and inspector Jude Oboe were attached to the explosive ordnance disposal EOD unit in Government House Osaba. They were ambushed and killed around 1.30 p.m. yesterday, Friday, February 10 by unknown government along Ihala or Low Road and route Umahi on official duty. Delta State Commissioner for Information Mr. Chow's annual book, who briefs journalists on the sad incident, said the late officers would be greatly missed for their contributions to the peace and development of Delta. He described the unfortunate killing of the officers as barbaric and unacceptable in a country seeking to be united again for peace and development. It's most unfortunate that these gallant officers, just like many others who have also lost their life in the past, have lost their life on account of these activities of individuals who today not describe themselves as unknown government, who are pleading with them to shoot their sword and begin to allow that love for which the people of the South East have been known for over the years so that as a people, as Nigerians, we can all continue to co-exist. We pray the good Lord Almighty to accept the soul of these our loved ones, three of them that have passed on due to no fault of theirs, we also pray that God give their families the fortitude to also bear these irreparable loss even as we seek justice on their behalf both as a government, as a state and as a people.


How does a woman respond to a mother-in-law who is unfair in the treatment of her grandchildren, and who overly burdens her son causing him to neglect his wife and children, or a mother-in-law with high expectations? In this kind of situation, and there were multiple questions I kind of brought them into one for the purpose of the video, we need to advise both the woman who is the wife and her husband. Or the woman who is the wife, or even you could reverse it, the one who is the daughter-in-law or the son-in-law. This person, we need to tell them that you always respond in the way that is best. Allah says, The good deed and the bad deed are not equal, respond in a way that is better. If you do this, then the one that there is enmity between you and them will become like your closest friend, and no one will achieve this except those who are patient and no one will achieve this except those who have a great portion of good from Allah. وَإِمَّا يَنْزَغَنَّكَ مِنَ الشَّيْطَانِ نَزْغُنْ فَاَسْتَعِذْ بِلَّهُ إنَّهُ هُوَا السَّمِيرْ عَلِيمَ And if the shaitan comes to you and makes you slip and you fall short of that standard, then seek refuge with Allah, Allah is the All-Hearing and the All-Knowing. So ultimately this sets out, as we did a lecture on this during the course, the way that you respond to people who show you enmity, people who oppress you, you ultimately respond in a way that is better. Always have the moral high ground. Not because you will win the argument with them, but because you'll be rewarded with it for it by Allah Azza wa Jalil al-Muqiyyama. Make it about Allah, don't make it about the person. So let the woman be good to her mother-in-law who is bad to her for the sake of Allah and not for the sake of her mother-in-law. And likewise the son-in-law who is mother-in-law is oppresses him or what have you. Let him be good to his mother-in-law because of or for the sake of Allah Azza wa Jalil. Knowing that if he does that, Allah will change that person's heart. Be itnihi to make that heart come towards kindness and gentleness and softness.  That man needs to find a balance. As we mentioned in the course, the Aqtikulladi Haqqin Haqqa, the famous hadith, give everyone who has a right over you their right. There is no benefit in giving your mother her rights and then taking your wife's rights away. And there is even less benefit in giving the wife her rights and taking your mother's rights away because that's an even greater sin in Islam. Rather you have to balance between them. And most of the time, the problem here lies with the husband. Now we're not saying that that means the mother-in-law is amazing or a wonderful person. But usually the fault lies with the husband because he's not finding that balance. He's not giving his mother her rights independently and his wife her rights independently. Instead what he's doing is he doesn't know what those rights are.  So she takes that out on his wife or he's not preventing his mother from sin in a way that is respectful and kind as we spoke about in other questions. He's not helping her to stop that kind of oppression and he's not setting that kind of those kind of limits out. So he's giving his mother free reign to mistreat his wife without helping his mother in a respectful and kind way to stop doing that or advising her obviously in private away from the wife and so on, but he's not doing that. So ultimately so much of this, we're not going to say every case but in many cases so much of this comes down to the mat that he needs to man up and take responsibility and he needs to treat his mother in the best way but also to not allow that to take the rights away from his wife and his children. He needs to first of all know what the rights are for his wife and his children because so many times if he doesn't know what his mother's rights are he doesn't know what his children's rights are or they don't know that and he hasn't educated them about it. Nobody knows they just have cultural expectations. So the wife has an expectation and she feels hard done by the mother has a cultural expectation she feels hard done by and nobody is ruling by what Islam actually says in the situation. So it is really important for A'tikullah the Haqqin Haqqah give everyone has a right over you, they're right. And it's also really, really important for a wife in the situation to think about how she treats her own daughter in law because there is a perpetual cycle of evil that happens in these families which is that the daughter in law is oppressed then she becomes a mother in law and she oppresses her daughter in law and the same cycle happens again.  When the mother is guided by Islam when the husband is guided by Islam when the wife, the daughter in law is guided by Islam then this situation will not happen. This ignorance will be removed by the permission of Allah Azawajal but when Islam is not the guide and Islam is not the judgment what happens is or the judgments are made without reference to Islam then this will be a perpetual cycle of evil and vulm an oppression that just keeps on happening again and again generation after generation. It might also be beneficial to get others involved who might be able to give advice to the various people it might be for example that the father in law for example has the ability to advise his wife who is the mother in law and to give her some advice about how to maybe to take it a little bit easy on the daughter in law but also the daughter in law has to seek the moral high ground in that to respond in the way that is best and also all of the key here the pivot is on the husband to to really take that responsibility to give his mother her rights so that he can stand before Allah she might not be happy. You know the end of the day some people have expectations that are just not Islamic but at least he can say I gave my mother her rights Ya Allah and I gave my wife her rights and ultimately if he does that Allah Azawajal will bring Islam between them will bring correction between them and will correct that situation and stop it from going on to the next generation and the next generation and Allah Azawajal knows best Assalamu alaikum warahmatullahi wabarakatuhu How can you do a two second action right now that will give you a share of the reward of everything we're doing on this YouTube channel simple Like this video and click subscribe Why? It will allow YouTube to recommend our videos to other users and imagine the huge amount of reward that could be waiting for you on the day of judgment if you did that with a sincere intention of spreading the deen of Allah You'll be rewarded for every single person who benefits from one of our videos as a result of your like or subscribe That's an easy two second action that you definitely don't want to miss out on Do it now click like and subscribe and don't forget to make that intention


I'm Robert Gould. I'm the Director of the Graduate Program in Comfort Resolution at Portland State University. I'm going to talk about the notion of moral injury. This particular term is being used to explain the fact that war veterans are not responding to the treatment protocols that have been developed for post-traumatic stress disorder. Civilians who have that, and again about one out of every 13 people in the United States will probably develop post-traumatic stress disorder at some point in their life. And three out of every ten civilians or military personnel in a war zone will develop post-traumatic stress disorder. However, the treatment for people in war zones is not working according to this new theory because they're not able to understand the whole, all the dimensions of their experience in warfare. Now the notion of moral injury is used to explain that experience which oftentimes is spoken to by veterans as the inability to either restrict their activities on a moral level or to be able to respond to immoral activities that they witness. If they kill or injure somebody who is not a combatant, be it accidentally or impulsively, or if they don't come to the aid of somebody who has been injured but is not a part of the military operation, so if they neglect or if they do something that brings more harm onto innocent people, then it may make sense within the context of the war to be able to move on quickly to another military target. But when they come home and reflect on that, they realize what an immoral thing they have participated in. That combined with the other symptoms of PTSD create a conundrum that's very difficult to unravel unless there's some way that this moral injury can be addressed. In conflict resolution we talk about forgiveness, reconciliation, self-forgiveness, dialogue where people can begin to witness or express their regrets for what they've done as a way to heal from that. In the Vietnam War there was these sorts of experiences and Vietnam vets have gone back to Vietnam and entered into reconciliation processes with Vietnamese. This may need to happen also in the Middle East at some point in the future.