I like the fact that even though the technology is bilingual when you read it. It's the same underpinnings, you know So it's like well, it should be in this menu. It's like, okay fine. Here you go I'm Andrew Reinhardt from the University of York. Thank you again for coming and thanks for Megan for listening in and for providing the discussion in a little bit One of my case studies from my PhD thesis at York was studying Skyrim VR if you haven't played Skyrim This is an open-world game that was released in 2011 and then they repackaged it as a VR gaming experience in 2017 and oh my god, it was fun. I played it for yes, it's really fun.  Yes And so thanks for the dance. That's awesome So basically, you know when when playing this you're playing with on the Sony ps4 I was using the ps4 VR headset, which which I got with a microgram from New York. So thanks again and I wanted to see God, I had a lot of questions because as an archaeologist of digital spaces I wanted to see what VR could bring to that experience as an archaeologist and specifically what can VR help me as an archaeologist when I'm working in an open world.  Well, I do but I don't I like to work in digital spaces to see What's going on? And VR seemed to provide this really great opportunity to do so and using Skyrim VR Was a good sandbox because it's a controlled environment I played several hundred hours in the original game and I wanted to go and see what I could do now as far as the tools are Concerned, you know for those of you who do dirt archaeology and I used to in Italy and Greece and You know when you were using tools like you see on the slide here And so with with VR you're limited. You have a headset You've got you know in this example with ps4 You've got wands and then you have a camera that is looking at you all the time Which is actually pretty creepy when you think about it But at least it allows you to interact with that digital space. So you have this kind of trans mediation going on So you know with those tools though depending on the game that you play these tools different things And so, you know, it's like having a multi-tool in no man's sky Or being able to turn that that hammer into a pick into a shovel, but using the same tool at once It's like your sonic screwdriver So this is a really wordy slide and I'll send I'll put the slide deck up as public open access after this So you can actually read it But I wanted to do a lot of interesting things or at least things that are interesting to me in this I wanted to see You know how the fieldwork goes in doing survey archaeology landscape archaeology and Skyrim VR I wanted to see if I was asking different questions Research-wise between how I would dig in the natural world versus how I do you do some kind of archaeology in the synthetic world I was really interested in the immersive aspects and phenomenology of Working with these pixelated objects and working with understanding materials and how we interpret materials in a game versus materials in the real world And by the way, I hate using real world and virtual world I prefer to use what Ed Castro Nova says is the synthetic world in the natural world because right now We're we're working in a blended environment. Most of you are on your phones on your laptops or whatever That's real the digital is real so we can we can kind of put that discussion to bed I wanted to start off also by talking about what's an artifact and there are a couple of different artifacts You'll find in games specifically in Skyrim, but also more generally in other kinds of digital environments This is the this is the main gameplay the mason mole-eye ball. It's a really OP weapon But you can pick up if it is man Oh power and so you get this and like they'd like sucks the souls out of people when you use it awesome But you know you have this digital thing and this digital thing goes from Game to game you could find in older versions of the game in the Elder Scrolls universe You can find it or Morrowind for example You can find it in Skyrim it doesn't matter when you find it You can find it here and the cool thing about an artifact like this is if you have played the games at different times in Your life you will actually get the same artifact over multiple times And so you have this multiplicity of digital artifacts that you can get which is really weird And so also the phenomenology, you know When I'm when I pick this up in Skyrim VR it doesn't weigh anything You know it should it should be really heavy And so I would like to have some kind of resistance from the controllers to indicate that this is a heavy weapon versus like a dagger Which is really light so you have different kinds of resistance and stuff like that, but you don't get it And with the materiality something like this You know we're always working with pixels the pixels are assembled in a certain way to say this is this kind of Weapon this is this kind of tool with this kind of whatever else and and so You You're using the same kind of material which is electricity basically in order to do all of this other stuff versus material science in the natural world Where you're working with bronze or you have iron steel would have you There's a separate kind of artifact in the game too I watched Interstellar for the 1700s time on the plane coming over and at the end of the movie spoiler alert You know the McConaughey's character goes into a hypercube Just four-dimensional representation of a cube for space time So and VR this happened to me, and I did not expect this Here's called it alone a glow was a four-dimensional sphere the way that the VR universe is created in the headset is You it surrounds you in a 360 view you're like a fishbowl your head stuck in the middle of the fishbowl, right? And so you're looking around and then all of a sudden I got finished and the game stopped working But I just moved my head and I saw infinite Universities of where I was right here. It's like my god, this is for no one was right And so it's like what do what do we do and so you can document I have this on video and and stuff I was unable to reproduce it. However, so but other people when I went on to read it and stuff because I'm a geek I was able to find that other people have had this experience They just know what was going on and so when you're dealing with digital stuff, you have this kind of artifact Which which is this kind of residue of human-agent interaction with hardware interacting with software That creates something that is unexpected. It's kind of as one of the speakers said earlier Lynn. I think Emergent behavior You know because code is complex code mixed with people more complex and mixed with hardware even more so And so weird shit like that happens Other things that I wanted to do was I wanted to you know, we're talking about artifacts We're talking about the digital and virtual and stuff like that I'm like, what would be cool if I could take an artifact from the game and print it You know so that all of a sudden we have this real-world manifestation of something that exists only in the digital And so I did I haven't created it yet. It looks nasty, but but I find a major space. I'm gonna try it out So basically I use I try to use open-source tools wherever I can if I'm using Photoshop It's just because I have it. I'm not gonna tell you how But you can also have you know things like gem for example just open source software for imaging and stuff So you don't have to pay for it. You know, you can always do the things that you need to do for free And so I was able to to go into Skyrim And there's a turntable mechanic when you're looking at artifacts And you can use your tool to rotate this way and rotate this way And then all of a sudden you've got this 3d scan of something that you would normally do on a turntable in a Lightroom doing object photography. And so you're spinning it and then you use software and I've got the software that I use over on the left side of the slide In order to take that film chop it up into thousands of images And then you switch them together to create what's called a point cloud, which looks remarkably like this pickaxe Which is something that I'm familiar with It create it then overlays the point cloud with a texture Which is directly from the game and then you know when I imported it It's a mesh lab. It looked messy But then you're able to clean it up by and just scrubbing and stuff like that At which point you can export to a 3d printable file so that you can get a pickaxe that's this big or you can scale it up Something that's this big or something like that And so I want to see if you can do that in a digital environment Extract something from the synthetic world to the natural world that didn't ordinarily exist and you can What else do we do? Okay, I Wanted to talk about photography too because what you're talking about Digital spaces and digital environments and even if you're talking about just just regular landscapes You know you look out there. It's like I had a parcel one. It's amazing and it is You can you can take this pan around and coat a grass with your phone or whatever and and and that's great You get this strip that looks something like this. So I'm like, how do I get this in a game? How do I get this in a synthetic environment? and so you know I'm wearing this hat and and you know I spend myself around for a 360 you know Film and then basically following kind of similar steps to working with the pickaxe and that I break up the film into Stank images and then I have a computer stitched together. Sometimes it works. Sometimes it doesn't And so this is one of the first the states the literally cool because what this is is a Mobius strip It's a one-dimensional creation of a three dimensional space in the game. So it made this Mobius strip of a pan around lot. That's really pretty cool But it's wrong So so it's like But anyway, you start with something like this you turn your hat to do the movie you split it up into Constitutional images And then ultimately you can either have a computer stitched together or you can cheat By basically matching the images decision that they got by hand and in doing the crop In order to I did this and I'll show you something else in a minute Thank you Where I wanted one of the big issues that I have with with archaeo gaming or with with this kind of synthetic world Archaeology is that if I'm playing Skyrim, I don't want to have to have people buy the game.  And so something like this I can put up on my WordPress site with a free web VR Plug-in and it will recognize this as a 3d thing And then if you have Google Cardboard if you have one of those cheap $5 or 5 euro plastic headsets that just takes your phone You'll be able to have the same kind of experience and you can go to this world I haven't had game you have that virtual experience without having to buy Bethesda's product I Did the same thing with doing a 3d walkthrough in the fact that you know I recorded the walkthrough through the headset in this 3d immersive environment and it was able to split that video I'm not using a tool Have to use a path to the tool which is switches Sure, it's not sure where it's basically kind of like pay what you like in order to use this In order to get these split-screen stereoscopic 3d walkthrough so that you can put Google Cardboard on your face and you can have that 3d experience of walking through and so if I want to share with you That experience we can go through and and and have a look and you can see what I see or if you want to be ethical about it You can see what means the archaeologist wants you to see is the audience And so there's a there's a fine line here One of the things that I'm trying to do is being able to record that 3d environment in a way You can explore it too without having to buy the game and without having me directly your attention I also wanted to do things with GIS. Can you do GIS of the game? Yes I was able to find a topographic map that was that was produced as a cc0 public domain map and Was able to import that map Into what I use a photoshop I use inkscape and what not what photoshop allowed us to do is to bring in The map in SVG layers as an image so there's a layer for camps and there was a layer for caves a Layer for Geography and stuff like that and then by importing it inkscape it allows you to have that pass through to I use these in QGIS which is an open source would use our GIS That's behind some other software and and you're able to actually export those files into an AutoCAD readable file that you've been import Into QGIS and all of a sudden you've got an interactive map. It's a GIS map That you can start getting information from and so this is what it looks like with all the different layers here You can turn these on and off and you can do all kinds of these statistical analyses about how that synthetic will just put together Great now in Skyrim. It's a built universe. It's a built environment You know the designers know exactly what is where? But this is preparation for things that are coming You know when you're talking about procedurally generated landscapes and procedurally generated spaces that is safe code and algorithm Making things for people to explore that nobody's seen before well in order to do that We need to first start in this kind of sandbox in order to see what works and what doesn't and then we can then take it to The next step in applying it to a place that hasn't existed before even in front of the programmers I also took a quick side trip into Psycho Geography You know It's basically how does the city make you move around in it and so with a map You know something like this is really horrible to look at. I'm sorry But at least you can see like regions that the programmers have set up as far as what guides exploration How to get from town to town and what not so you have you have that going on too And you'll have that with you the maps that you produce as you go to answer other questions about the landscape Talking I know I'm getting short on time but talking on Cultural immersion being in York we have access to the York Viking Center Which is pretty cool and not cool at the same time In fact that you write this little cart and you can smell the smells to see the sights and hear the sounds and all that stuff But you can't get out and do anything and you're like look these are gonna be soon It's a non-player character and I have questions about me It's like I can't do that and so you know in a game like this and especially in Skyrim because it is heritage or theme It's based on the Nord which is kind of this Norwegian Viking kind of people You can have a PC that you can talk to it stuff and as you're designing these user experiences or as an archaeologist If you're using unity Inject with other kinds of things that you can create You know these NPCs and these quest builders and stuff like that so that you can actually as a player or as a visitor Go and interact directly with these things and you can learn the lingo and find out more about stuff Yorgic is doing something interesting here, but I think you can also supplement on the other side of things with something That is purely digital Let's see Yeah, I know the dragon there's always dragons. That's one of the hazards You know you go and you dig in the Mediterranean you might have scorpions You might snakes and bugs and stinging plants and stuff and Skyrim is dragons bandits, you know So has hazards of the tree that you never thought up until you started doing this kinds of stuff And I'm getting pretty close to the end. Yeah, so this is the last slide These tools that we would use in a natural environment at a natural dig so we can apply similar methodologies and similar pieces of software to digital space the more I work on the digital environment the more I realize It's not all that different from the natural world And you know with a few notable exceptions like going into a four-dimensional sphere We're being attacked by dragons, but still you know where I'm asking similar questions I'm getting similar results and the fact that that in playing games like this like Skyrim VR or playing No Man's Sky or other kinds of things people who play this even though it's a role-playing game or a fantasy game We're still kind of playing as ourselves We have the same kind of needs and the same kinds of questions that we would have in a natural environment and that that kind of Struck is weird. I don't know what I was expecting and doing this But I'm like, you know people are people and so they're asking the same kind of questions and having similar kinds of experiences Even though it's a fantasy place so so anyway, I just wanted to at least let you know what I was up to with that and Thank you very much for your time and attention


Welcome back, everyone. I hope that you enjoyed your discussions. We're going to continue now with the panel, but I'm just going to move down to the floor, if I may. There we are. It's a lot easier to do from here. Thanks very much. I hope that you enjoyed your sessions and that you got all of it out of that. Now is the chance to—but our question time format—a chance for you to put any questions you want or just make a few points and put them to our distinguished panel of MSPs here. Starting on my far right, we have Keith Brown, MSP, who's the Cabinet Secretary for the Economy, Jobs and Fair Work. He's joined by Dean Lockhart from the Conservative Party and Jackie Baillie from the Labour Party, who both are economy spokespersons and Tavish Scott, former leader and now education spokesperson for the Lib Dems. Thank you very much to our panel. Now it's open to you. We've got about an hour for questions. Who wants to be the first? No-one ever wants to be the first and at the end there'll be too many hands up and we'll be able to get you in, eh? Thank you, yes. Can you perhaps just introduce yourself? Yes. I wonder actually if—do you want to stand? Do you want to stand and then say who you are and then—because I think that that'll work better with the microphone, sorry, yes. As we're just daunting everybody now, yes. I suppose it's a novelty, if nothing else, to stand in the chamber and speak to the assembled audience. So my name is John Forster. Apologies to Cabinet Secretary Brown because he's already had to take one question from me a short time ago. I'm here wearing several guises. I'm a private sector business owner, a form of Forster Group, but I'm going to ask a question on behalf of Scotland's Solar Trade Association, so one of the renewable energy sectors that offer such a prominent future for the Scottish economy. Ultimately, my question will be about the opportunity for business to engage with the Scottish Government because my experience in engaging with a number of the departments has been somewhat mixed. Some of it has been absolutely excellent, but we have had an example this year, which I'm going to use just for the opportunity, which is around business rates and perhaps there'll be others in the audience who have faced similar challenges, hot topic. We've engaged considerably over the various consultations, plans and strategies around energy, climate change, energy efficiency, et cetera, that have been carried out this year and are under way towards programmes and policies that they will become. We represent an industry that has projected that within the 2030 period that most of those policies are working to, we foresee an industry that will grow to £1.5 billion per annum contribution to the Scottish economy. We will grow from little over 1,000 jobs, unfortunately to recent cuts in the last couple of years. We will grow to, we reckon, in excess of 10,000 jobs, which will be a decent contribution in jobs terms. Significantly, we expect to produce energy savings for the Scottish economy of around half a billion per annum and over 50 per cent of that will be of benefit to the business community, who will be the main uptaker of solar in order to meet many of the challenges that will come from those new policies. Having had excellent engagement, we have found it absolutely impossible to meet with either the Cabinet Secretary for Finance—this is not a personal criticism, I'm just reflecting—or with, for example, the Barclay review. In fact, it took me to approach the First Minister this morning and, typical for the First Minister, who then said, don't worry, don't worry, give me a card and I'll arrange a meeting, which is quite impressive for somebody to her level. I just think, or does it perhaps say something about business engagement? Maybe there are others in the audience who would like to follow with better questions and the challenges that we sometimes have, because I think that the Scottish Government in comparison to the Westminster Government is a great deal easier to engage with, but without that engagement, some of the key messages are easily lost, and the one that I've just reflected on with some specific numbers—understandably, the First Minister—is somewhat lit up at the prospect of those numbers and the benefits to the Scottish economy and society. Business can produce huge benefits—we know that—but, of course, if we don't get the opportunity to engage, sadly, this is one event a year, then, of course, there is a significant danger that we lose that opportunity for the wider economy. I was just pointing out, by the way, that you're actually sitting in John Swinney's seat at the moment. I do know John, Sarah. Maybe you won't mind. Keith, can I just ask you—I think that all MSPs will be slightly disappointed by what you say, all MSPs from all parties, including the Government, because the Parliament was set up to be open, transparent and to be constantly engaging with people from all Braggans, but particularly the business community. Perhaps Keith will ask you to respond first. First of all, on the point about the seat that you're sitting in, and I've twice been challenged by Ian Wood today, and I know he's sitting in my seat, so I don't know what the nature of those challenges were, but congratulations, Ian, well done. I think I would want to say that I speak for all the parts of Government where you've had a good experience, and Derek Mackay will have to speak for finance. I would say that, at the time that you're probably trying to engage with him, and I don't know all the details of having done that, he was probably under quite a lot of pressure, but nevertheless, the fact that the First Minister has said that she'll make sure that that meeting takes place, I think, is the right way to deal with it, and again, I'm happy to be involved. Paul Wheelhouse, my colleague, is sitting about four rows back from you, who's the Government's energy minister as well. Both he and I made representations on behalf of your sector in terms of the rates situation. There was a particular case to be made for that there, and I entirely agree with you in terms of the potential for job creation in the sector. I think we would say that we've been pretty miffed about recent, the last few years, changes to the support structures in terms of renewables generally from the UK, and we're trying to get a more level playing field, and rates will be part of that scenario. So we should respond. I think it just gives me the chance to say more generally on business engagement, which is a fundamental point that you're raising. I think a number of the large organisations which are represented here, the Scottish Government asks a lot of them, and the Parliament will also do—MSPs will also do so— to be involved in different forums. I think we have to continually strive to make sure that we acknowledge that they have limited resource to engage, and we also have limited resource to engage, so we've got to make sure that it's most effective. But within that, we also have to make sure that we're always available for individual representations, and as far as it's practically possible, and that's the only way you can keep up to date. We think, certainly Paul Wheelhouse and myself think, we do that, Paul, in particular, in the energy sector, but wherever we fail to do it, the important thing is that we correct it, which, hopefully, the First Minister has done this morning. I'm not going to bring all four speakers in on every question, because it would get repetitive, I think. Tavish, I wonder if I could just ask you to perhaps add a few comments, and then I'll bring them in. I mean, just three very quick points. Firstly, do we need a joined-up energy policy? UK wide? Yes, we darn well do. So I support Keith's aspiration to achieve that in conjunction with the UK Government. Secondly, on business rates, not just your sector, but a number's are still pretty worried about what's going on. We had a meeting in here Tuesday night, I think, of a cross-party group on fishing, and a fish processor from Peterhead explained that his business rates were 40 per cent more expensive than his competitor in Grimsby, head-to-head competition across the other side of the border. So I know that our own Government here are aware of those arguments, but I still think there's an awful lot to do. For some of us, Barclay didn't go far enough, but that's different. And thirdly, on the Presiding Officer's point, I share that concern that you don't find uphand accessible. To be honest, if you need to get to Keith and his colleagues, the best way, if I may be so bold, and Keith's not thank me for saying this, is knock on their constituency door. When I was a minister and Jackie did had the same, I had three businesses one day who couldn't get through my civil servants, flew to Shetland and walked into my constituency office. So there are ways to get to all of us, but I genuinely believe Keith and his colleagues, people across politics, are generally better by being as available as they can be. And we don't try and hide from anyone, no matter how strong their views are or how critical you are of something we may be seeing. I'm just wondering, Caroline Currie. Yes, do you understand up, Caroline? Okay, thanks. I'm Caroline Currie. I'm from Women's Enterprise Scotland. My question is around enterprise support for women. We regularly research and survey the business landscape for women-led businesses. And in our last survey, 78 per cent of respondents said that business support services should be more aware of the differences between women-led and male-led businesses. And I would also add that 91 per cent of these women-led businesses responding were predicting business growth. We need to get better at providing gender-specific support for women. Repeatedly coming back in research is the evidence that women face different challenges in business to men. Yet if we put that support in place, we heard this morning we can boost our economy to the tune of nearly £8 billion, potentially circumnavigating the impact of Brexit in the way there. And the key thing is these businesses are projecting growth. Isn't that what we wish to hear? Isn't that what we want to see happening in our economy? So my question therefore is what are we doing about providing that support that has been asked for repeatedly that research shows is required and would help us to boost our economy, what is government doing and what are MSPs doing to encourage and help government to put that support in place. Thanks Caroline. Dean, give it to you first and then Jackie. Sure, thanks very much Caroline for the question. As you know at the economy committee we published earlier this year a report on the gender pay gap and while it's not specifically related to enterprise we did take evidence about the challenges women face in enterprise in a start-up context. And I think there are a number of issues to address I won't go into them all although we are having a debate next week on the gender pay gap which you're welcome to join. I think one of the key issues we heard about was education. It starts at a very early stage where we sometimes in terms of career guidance send the same message to girls as we do boys and we should encourage girls to participate more in STEM subjects both at school but probably more importantly going through to university and I think that's why for historical reasons women have a higher participation in lower paid sectors and men have a higher participation in higher paid sectors for example STEM and that results, one of the results or one of the drivers of the gender pay gap in terms of enterprise the strategic board is a step in the right direction I think that hard alignment between the skills agencies and enterprise agencies is going to be very important so that they're all heading in the right direction and I thought nor a senior's speech today was excellent because it really identified some of the challenges that we need to address in terms of enterprise, innovation and otherwise. So I think it is something certainly the economy committee is aware of and I think going forward it's an issue we hope to address and I think that the Prime Minister is actually going to publish information on our gender pay gap next week Jackie. You've already been given the advert for tuning in next Wednesday so I hope some of you will do you may see some of your ideas reflected back at you but certainly it's the case that I think there is an increasing kind of focus on how we ensure that there is a better gender balance in the workforce not for reasons that we believe 50-50 in and of itself is a good thing but actually because it's such an untapped opportunity there's such potential there and if we can lever in 8 billion pounds to the Scottish economy then for goodness sake we should be going after that. So whether it's the pay gap, whether it's flexible working we want to increase women's participation in the economy and what I would say to Carolyn in response to a question frankly we're not doing enough and I hope Keith will take some of this away but until we get agencies like Scottish Enterprise mainstreaming gender consideration in some of their programs and particularly in how we support women-led businesses unless we get business gateway understanding that because a lot of women that will be their first contact with any business support and unless we get that support that access to finance actually suiting and meeting the difference that there is then we won't succeed but the ambition should be to tap that untapped potential. Thank you very much. Alasdor Ross from the association of British insurers I think there's been a lot of interesting discussions today I think we've all done quite a bit I would make an observation though that I think the conversations tend to default towards manufacturing now that's for very understandable reasons because we've got a lot of scope to improve in terms of manufacturing in terms of the risk overlooking the fact that I think around about three quarters of the Scottish economy is services now whether that's in areas like retail or in tourism or in business services I mean to give you an example my own sector in insurance insurance is worth about a billion pounds per annum in terms of GVA to the Glasgow economy and we support 10,500 jobs which is almost double the employment supported by the shipyard but Glasgow's always I think going to be synonymous with heavy ships as opposed to insurance but it just poses some questions in my mind I mean the first minister mentioned earlier Glasgow's the European capital for satellite manufacture which is great insurance in Glasgow actually supports more jobs and contributes more to the economy than the entire Scottish space agency so I'd just like to get an idea from the panel what priority do you put on the service sector when we've heard so much about manufacturing this morning Keel Keith, can I go back to you and you start with this round? Analyst has made that point a number of times before and I think it is the case when you are perhaps pushing forward a particular not new area but a new emphasis then you do stand liable to be accused of not giving sufficient emphasis to other areas there is no question about the importance of the insurance the assurance sector in Scotland is hugely important and not always obvious to everybody far less politicians it can be something quite quietly done in the background but provides not far from where I live huge numbers of jobs in central Scotland as well as what's been said in Glasgow I think though the point that the first minister was making and it's true in the programme for government is we do need to have recoup some of the ground we've lost in terms of manufacturing over many years and it's the idea that we start to build and innovate those things otherwise we just consume from elsewhere because there are major benefits to doing that so it's a fact that's shrunk so much I mean you could say of course it's great the service sector and financial sector has grown as much as it has done but we're looking at what we have to do to try and grow the manufacturing sector sector not at the expense of the service sector we want both the possible but I think if it's a corrective from Alistair to say that we shouldn't forget and should continually remind people of the importance of the financial sector more generally and the insurance sector certainly we are well seized of that but just now I think there is quite rightly a big focus and partly emphasised by Brexit and the threat that Brexit represents on manufacturing there's a big opportunity there the truth is we should look for opportunities in all sectors and how we can protect and promote the insurance sector's got to be part of that so I take on board the point I think Tavish on to add a brief comment just to say Alistair and you won't thank me for this but politicians like bright exciting new things like space and therefore whoever the first minister of the day is at this time bound to seize on something like that particularly if you represent a glass of consistency it's not a criticism it's just how it is so you represent a part of the world which is steady and we take for granted yes of course we do is it important yes of course it is but the way politics works you know how many column inches will poor old Keith Getty be makes a learned speech the insurance sector compared to saying do you know about space folks it's just the nature of the world we live in I'm afraid doesn't in any way undermine how important your sector is it's just the nature of what we are and Dean you want to add Jackamilton as well there sure Alistair makes a very good point the financial sector alone is 10% of the economy 180,000 jobs 90,000 direct and indirect fintech is the major opportunity for us going forward Edinburgh is one of the Edinburgh and Glasgow combined are massive financial centres and we have a real opportunity in e-commerce and also in fintech to lead the world and create innovation sometimes innovation productivity is seen as a manufacturing issue but actually if we get innovation right and productivity right in the financial sector and services sector that can really add value as well just a brief comment most of you will know that Scottish Enterprise have six growth sectors financial services is one of them and it has the only sector that actually performed well and grew the rest didn't so that maybe says something to you about the importance of financial services to our economy and let me just make a novel suggestion I'm sure people in space need insurance yes thank you very much my name is Roddie Gaw I'm the chairman and founder of the Asia Scotland Institute David Burrell my our director is next to me to educate and inspire tomorrow's leaders in Scotland and to get them to re-engage with Asia and I want to just ask a question of the panel about engagement with international markets the population of Scotland is the same of that of Singapore more or less the Singaporean economy has grown incredibly and my question is what are we doing to help companies many of which are represented in this chamber to engage with those markets and I have a very real concern about what seemed to me to be a great idea called the global Scots and as I travel around the world in the United States where I live when I'm not in Asia I meet global Scots who make it very clear to me that they do not feel that they are properly engaged with and they don't have a chance to do some of the things that they signed up for so my question is to help Scottish companies get into these markets can we overhaul the global Scots concept can we refresh it and can we change the terms on which they are engaged to do business Jackie, do you want to start off on that? I'd love to start off on that I was born and brought up in Hong Kong I have to say I was not conscious of any Scottish global network at that point but let me say to you, my brother took his degree in engineering at Strathclyde University he now is head of design and product design at Panasonic in California he never once gets asked or used to do anything so our global Scot network may exist, we're not using them and they want to be used and therefore I think a refresh of that moving us away from the days of Donald Trump being one of our famous global Scots to actually people who have real connections with Scotland that are prepared to work with us when I think of Scottish diaspora we are in every part of the world and have been for hundreds upon hundreds of years and yet we don't exploit that so I couldn't agree with you more Dean, I think you wanted to add a comment as well Thank you, this is something I could talk all day about, I spent 15 years in Asia and like Donald Trump I'm a global Scot as well but that's where the similarities end hopefully I'm steady I left myself open there Look I think, Rodi, you make a very good point there is a huge network of Scots or friends of Scots including actually alumni of Scottish universities who go back to wherever their homeland is and they've got a very close affinity to Scotland we're not tapping that network and our exports to China are less than 1% of our exports to India likewise less than 1% we need to see these opportunities we need to grow our exports to those markets and tap into that diaspora network I think, without getting into the technicalities the global Scot network is a closed network I think what we should be looking at is a more open, vibrant and dynamic network that basically connects our Scottish diaspora to companies here in Scotland who are looking to access the markets Now, come over here David Launstale Scottish retail consortium Earlier the Presiding Officer in fact in his remarks at the beginning of the day talked about some of the pressures affecting consumers in the economy at the moment and obviously with the budget coming up and I think there's been a promise of a discussion paper about income tax and the political parties coming together to discuss that I wonder to what extent the pressures on consumers that the Presiding Officer talked about and also the needs of the economy and the viewpoint of business over the next few months Any volunteers to take that particular question now, Keith John Pyn, and this is a point that David's made a number of times how closely related to the success of the Scottish retail sector is the pound in people's pockets I think is at the spending power and I have made a number of comments in response, not least of which is if you could have people paying the living wage then the living wage is paid to people who do not even at living wage standards get a huge wage they're not going to assault it away in a bank account they'll spend it by and large buying things which the retail sector is selling to them because they have to do that so to me the living wage makes economic sense but David's also made the point about tax, if tax is increased at all that can reduce the amount of spending power I would also say that we have seen over a number of years now wage restraint and suppression of wages which is also limiting the spending power of people especially in some of the public sector areas so we want to look, the First Minister's also said that we will look to lift the public sector pay cap which in its own will actually increase the amount of spending power against for some of the people who are finding it most difficult in society so of course there are difficult decisions to make and David's quite right to say that the Government has said that we will want to consult on income tax proposals there are a range of views in the Parliament here across this panel you'll find a different range of views and of course it is possible to say you could actually say that it can increase economic activity in the very way that David suggests if you do things like lift the wage cap it can increase the spending power in the economy so these are difficult decisions we will have to face them when we have the budget and what I think has quite rightly been done is let's say not just within the Parliament the different political parties but across Scotland people want to contribute to that debate and tell us what they have used in terms of tax and public spending are so there's a number of hands being up now so briefly Jackie and then Tavish we have a number of powers now in relation to taxation I think it would be entirely appropriate for the Parliament to consider them I agree with Keith's comments about the living wage and lifting the pay cap because we know that that spend predominantly is local and it goes back into the economy but we do face a choice with taxation and Keith may or may not confirm this but my understanding is there's maybe a 600 million gap in this year's budget there's quite a substantial amount of money to take out particularly if some areas are protected and others aren't so whilst the Fraser of Allander Institute is forecasting a 3% reduction in budget for unprotected areas it could be as much as 10% to 12% those are choices we face I don't want to see any further reduction in the amount of money we spend for example on education I think one of the biggest economic development drivers is investing in your people and investing in the skills and knowledge of your people if we resile from that then what are we condemning the economy to in a decade's time so these are really difficult choices I think it's appropriate to talk about taxation but I also think we need to be careful and understand how the fiscal framework operates because the fiscal framework does mean that if you start raising taxes there may well be consequences for Barnett and we need to just understand that and do this sensibly but obviously do it in dialogue with you guys as well two points David the first is a pretty simple one most MSPs mailbags at the moment reflect health health and health again we had a debate in here just the other night where one of our colleagues who represented Edinburgh pointed out the lack of GPs here in the capital city of Scotland to the islands I live in and show you the same so Jackie is absolutely right about education but the stress and pressure in the health sector is considerable no help in the context of your question about consumers but if it's about confidence then the mailbag we're getting or the emailbag in box we're getting these days I think reflects that and that's I think where a lot of the discussion will be around the changing taxation ye or nay second point is if there's one thing I do hope the Scottish Government will do this time it's to try and move us back towards three-year budgeting across the public sector and indeed in terms of business support the certainty around funding for our enterprise agencies for other organisations that are key to work that you all do we have chopped and changed and it's no one's fault it's the way in which the political cycle and the financial cycle has worked in the UK now over a number of years but when there was more stability over a three-year period we could make slightly longer-term decisions and the thing that pulls politics back all the time is the lack of an ability to take longer-term decisions so three-year budgeting from the finance sector allows organisations to take better longer-term decisions which is the way it needs to go just behind you Jackie Bratton from GroBiz in Perthshire this morning Gordon Lindhurst mentioned in his talk that one of the recommendations of a recent economy committee report was to make care a sector and that really rang give me resonance because we've been working in a project in rural Perthshire where we've evolved a co-operative of 25 individual businesses social trade or social enterprises who are all providing social care in a rural area very successfully but it's one small model and we're really struggling to get critical mass and to get funding and to extend that but social care is often seen just as a challenge, just as a problem and what we see it as is a huge entrepreneurial opportunity because self-directed support allows people to choose what services they want to buy themselves and the evidence in Highland Perthshire is that they exactly do that so it's not just about buying care it's about buying somebody who can take them out in an afternoon or provide specific support around therapies or whatever so there's huge economic opportunities for small businesses in the area particularly for female-owned businesses but what can we do what can government and the Parliament do to help to promote that idea and to accelerate it and to get it away from being seen as a problem and being seen as an opportunity instead Thanks much Jackie, you're looking off and we were very proud of this recommendation from the committee because when you talk about business it's always seen as something that's perhaps maybe manufacturing or something that is a bit sexier than social care yet the expanding opportunities for employment and growth is actually in the social care market because we've got an expansion of childcare we've got people getting older requiring more care as they do so and we do not have sufficient people going through because it's regarded as low paid part-time and the majority of people involved are women we need to do something to raise the value in society about these types of jobs we also need to make sure that the skills are there and we're driving up quality and as a consequence of that you also increase the reward for people operating in that sector and to be blunt the way to do it is not to kind of make it educational or social work but to make it the responsibility of Scottish enterprise let's have these as one of the growth sectors let's exploit the opportunity that we know is there because we can do good business out of this as well as raising the profile of a sector that will help society I know that others went in but there's a lot of people catching my eye now so I'm just going to take some more questions Ladies there, yes Anne Johnson plays manufacturing solutions on my chain actually but I'd like to bring up the stockpick of the NHS which I have to confess I've got a vested interest in because I use it, my family use it my friends use it, my community uses it I think as business owners it's time that we force the NHS into drastic change now we're working with the Aberdeen hospital that is looking into innovation because they've signed on to 30-year 35-year even in one instance 50-year contracts to companies who have there's no benefit to them to bringing innovation to the table now oil and gas is quiet we've diversified out of that but as a little sideline we've engaged with the NHS completely free of charge because we recognise that we see on the news just as viewers that the NHS needs to save huge amounts of money we have a huge concern as parents, as grandparents that we want everybody to be able to access the NHS and we want, we're very proud of it my question is when we met with the NHS and we talked about the new innovation that's available and all the things they're doing that they don't need to do anymore and they're just being ripped off on a monthly basis a yearly basis, a decade basis their hands are tied by central procurement is there something that can be done I don't know if it's even within this room that anybody can comment on but I urge you this is radical times there's a lot of companies that will genuinely help the NHS out we'll maybe do it on a cost plus basis you know, let's stop the global companies ripping off the NHS they don't have the vested interests they're not even in the UK how about some local content as well maybe that could be a theme Dean, I haven't joined if I bring you in on this one and then we'll get some more questions as well sure, there's a great question actually raising so many issues, let me just touch on one of them I think innovation in the public sector is going to be critical because demographic changes we know by the demographic changes there is a limited budget so we really do need to achieve more with that budget in terms of the outputs I think the discussion politically can focus on the inputs it can focus on the budget and how much the budget is increasing but there comes a time where the transmission mechanism actually might not work so for every extra pound you spend you're not getting additional output so there is a discussion to be had in terms of budget levels of spending, innovation I think ultimately we're looking at public sector reform to make sure that we have a system in place that for every pound we spend on it we're actually getting an incremental output so I think it's a part of a wider discussion that I think this chamber and the government really need to have a look at Hi, my name's Lindsay Millan I'm from Close the Gap we work on women's labour market participation and we support the recommendations of the Economy, Jobs and Fair Work Committee that care should be made a key sector and also that the government should implement a gender pay gap strategy that aligns to the labour market strategy is really great to hear women's labour market equality and the pay gap being such a focus of the debate and content of the day women's inequality in the labour market is a drag on economic growth both at a macro level and at an individual business level businesses that take action to address the causes of the pay gap are more productive, more innovative and more profitable however, all too often action to tackle gender inequality is framed as a cost to employers so what I want to know is what more the Parliament and Government can do to encourage employers to see this differently and to see that the cost is not in taking the action but in not taking the action Keith Cymru, do you want to respond to us? I think very good points and I'd watch some of the discussion at the economy committee and also a subsequent discussion which the parliaments and equalities and human rights committee had on this issue as well and I think part of my answer would be in relation to something I said before if you take the point about gender pay gap first of all it's predominantly the case that women are in lower paid jobs there is a gap there very obviously if you then start to try and do as much as you can in relation to living wage it's not the answer to all but if you start to pull people up to a wage that you can actually live on then you start to address some of those issues and that's also reflected in their push to try and have inclusive growth and that's a nice phrase and actually it was pretty unusual when the Scottish Government first came up with it Mark Carney, the Governor of the Bank of England told me that when he started going to G8 and G20 meetings there was only two countries that mentioned it and I forget the second one it's much more accepted now but what it actually means is the very point that was made before if you're not making sure that everybody shares in growth and in particular the largest section of your population in which is women are not sharing in that growth then you're not realising your true economic potential so in the same way that there's an economic argument for the living wage as well as a moral one there is an economic argument for eliminating that pay gap and it's also a moral one it's not right simply put that women should get paid less for doing a job than somebody else just because of their gender so I think what we're doing in the living wage the First Minister mentioned that we have as a country we are the highest proportion of people paid the living wage in the UK of the different countries of the UK up to 80% if we can eliminate the rest of that then it's not going to be the answer to the pay gap because you see it right the way through the wage system but at the bottom level perhaps where it's most kingly felt and the last point I would say we had a foundation who did some work on this and two women who'd had an absolutely horrendous employment experience terrible experience very insecure treated very badly they actually said it wasn't necessarily the wage it was the biggest thing it was the fact they felt valued or the fact they felt devalued the jobs they had been doing so I think the more general point about the esteem that people have for the job that they're doing is very important as well I think we're getting better but there's no question we've got more to do but just say to the panel I'm conscious I'm moving through because I want the audience and everybody here to be able to participate as much as possible but feel free if you feel that you want to pick up on some of the points I've not given you a chance to feel free to do so that's an excuse not to answer the question you've been asked of course it'll come on don't worry I think if you start speaking I run a small business in the construction industry there's only seven of us I've heard a lot of talk today about productivity and about £8 billion that we can invest in the economy et cetera but I think that we're undervaluing all that businesses can offer we don't just look at the bottom line the turnover and then the profit we look at how much we're actually putting into the community but there's no way of actually measuring that I'm not sure whether it's because I am of my gender I tend to look at things that way cos I've got kids and you know I've got to look at the whole picture but there must be a way to support businesses who want to actually make a difference at that level and in order to include that in the productivity figures cos it's as important as anything else the investment that we put into the area and into the youths of the area and the schools and the work experience that we offer how can we help companies to achieve similar goals and how can we value that in the same way as the pounds at the end of the day David Tavish Linda Zans and two leaders actually together under one headline which is Three Inwards Developing Services on Workforce because it struck me that one of the key reports that's been produced in devolution was that report because for two reasons firstly it recognised what needs to happen to encourage and enable schools to be much more linked to colleges and to business so that we've valued the vocational route into life as much as we've valued and traditionally the academic route into life secondly it's said for example in Shetland that we need more women doing engineering it's a big shortage of engineers at home we need more girls coming out of the Anderson High School and doing the learning partnership through our system into the workplace and it's been really effective in that and it has also worked on care as well and it's identified very early on in the same way that the audience today has identified that care is a big challenge in terms of workforce planning we wanted to make sure it wasn't just about old people it's also about people of all ages and the care that's needed and how to attract both boys and girls men and women into that area so again we did it at a younger age and we did it because of the Developing Scotland's Young Workforce programme and that's the company point the businesses that we've got involved in that get a lot out of that and we're sure but they are valued much more broadly than just pure economic numbers of how many people they employ because they're involved in that area so I think that whole area is dynamic, it's exciting and it's very very important for business because it absolutely allows great leaders to be in schools and to be in colleges and to achieve many of the things that you've described here this morning so I think that for me is a link between about three or four of the questions that were asked about the NHS as well I would add that the this issue, what you measure and therefore reflecting what you value is an issue that plagues us all in Parliament and Government and the Government under John Swinney launched the NPF, the National Performance Framework a few years ago just to try and move away from simply measuring things by hard accounting and actually place a value on wellbeing and other indicators and we're still making progress I would very much agree with what the Presiding Officer just said but to go back to your point and it's not the only way in which you can try and improve people's awareness of the contribution to society that businesses make but we do have, as you heard from Nora Senior the establishment of the strategic board that's going to have a new analytical unit which is specifically going to look at all the economic data that we produce currently how relevant and fit for purpose it is and it's exactly that kind of measure that you've talked about could be something that you want to find so people become more aware of it and more likely to contribute towards it Dean was a brief word Just two points the economy committee we're doing a data inquiry right now and as Keith said it's looking at wider measures of economic wellbeing it's not just GDP looking at the index for wellbeing that measures economic growth plus education levels and life expectancy and that more holistic measurement of outcomes I think is to be welcomed is touching on the kind of form of enterprise I think across the UK we're seeing increasing interest in social enterprise and different models of business that don't just look at the bottom line as you suggest it looks at the impact on the community and stakeholders and I think that's something we should welcome Mary Daimer Hi folks, I'm Mary Daimer from word up communications in Glasgow we've heard a lot this morning a lot of emphasis on growth innovation and internationalism but as a sole trader I do share some of those ambitions although my internationalism aspirations are perhaps a little bit more limited but us micro businesses play a hugely important part in the Scottish economy and if we're serious for example about encouraging more women to join in business many of them will be micro businesses and sole traders so I'd like to ask you what you as parliamentarians who represent us in the economic circles Jackie, do you mind if I ask you to not at all and I absolutely get that micro businesses are important in my constituency that's where the area of growth is and I'm not convinced we necessarily provide enough support or the financial tools available for people to take that step but the value of it is enormous because a micro business may start as one person but they end up perhaps employing two, three, four and more and because they are so local I don't know if the businesses in labour market terms are very much centred on my area if we're honest the business birth rate in Scotland isn't great and that to me suggests something about the health of the economy so helping businesses to start up to grow, to remove some of the barriers I think is key now business gateway has been devolved to local authorities and I have to be honest in some areas they work really really well they're counterparts and we need to get to a gold standard about the kind of support that is offered to micro businesses and indeed SMEs so that's where I would put my focus initially Gentleman, there it is Good afternoon I'm Nick Morris from Station House Cookery School in Cacubry Dumfries and Galloway and my questions certainly link into the questions regarding the NHS in today's age as I understand one of the greatest strains on our NHS is dietary related illness and at the same time if for example in our local primary school we have no facilities whatsoever to teach the primary age children about food and drink I have actually pledged a set amount of time through my business to be given free to the local primary school but my first question would be what can we do to actually raise the time in our schools to ensure that young people are learning how to cook for themselves which they're not at the moment which will have a knock-on effect on the NHS in generations to come and the second question which I believe is linked is regarding advertising standards for our fast food industry very much focused on young children to me it seems really quite unregulated when we can have adverts like don't cook, just eat for example purely focused on the takeaway service you were mentioning Tavish about the long-term effects on the NHS surely these two issues are two issues that have to be addressed just as an education spoke for some Tavish do you mind if I bring you in well at Homec teachers would be a good place no absolutely fair point there is a national shortage in many areas of our teaching profession at the moment but one which I was frankly surprised at until I saw the stats was on Homec teachers so I guess that's one answer that we had a particularly brilliant Homec teacher in one of the schools in my constituency who's just left to go to Stirling actually may even be in Kiespatch and she will do a wonderful job in a bigger school down there her family have moved but she was telling me on the boat from Lowick down to Aberdeen the other day about the shortage across the country and she said you need to push more in this area because for the obvious reasons so that's one answer on procurement and local food we could do more with our schools and indeed with NHS as well in our local areas to have procurement based on sourcing more local produce there's lots of obvious examples and advantages around food miles and so on and so forth but fundamentally it also helps of course more local food producing businesses never mind the primary agriculture sector and many of us have worked for a long time on trying to encourage government to do more in this and I think the food and drink strategy but it could do more in this area I don't know the answer on advertising we have limited powers I think on advertising in terms of what we could do but I think self-evidently most of us in politics here would try to take a much blunter line about allowing the kind of advertising you've described to be near our schools Keith first says Very briefly on the last point that Tavish makes he's absolutely right that she's advertising standards authority but perhaps more encouragingly I've met with him a couple of times recently that our presence is more keenly felt in Scotland well I've said to him if you can take some high profile cases forward then there's more chance which are relevant to Scotland in particular then there's more chance of you increasing your profile so I think there's a willingness on their part obviously I'm not making a comment on a specific case in relation to education at primary level there's no inhibition in fact there's every encouragement through the curriculum for excellence for teachers to teach about health and wellbeing so there's no inhibition there I don't have part in your question well I think we've seen a dramatic improvement in that overrecentage not just this administration but the previous one but there are still some in particular primary schools where it has to be improved and that programme will continue until we get every primary school up to the required standard I'm a gentleman in the front row there yes Thank you Pete Moeforth from INDES in Glasgow an observation and a short question the observation is I came here a bit cynical to this event and I know that politicians very often on the receiving end of but can I say the exact opposite is true I've been almost on the verge of being shocked by how warmly from my personal experience the engagement has been with the politicians and how the arguments for my area of interest is e-commerce and how well politicians have responded to that given that half the people who do e-commerce these businesses are led by women and there's quite a few micro businesses that trade and export quite successfully as individuals so maybe it's a topic hitting the right tick boxes but I guess and even when the First Minister has spoken so positively about the subject during her talk earlier my question is how warm and confident should I be that what has transpired today is actually going to happen so Jackie and Dean do you want to be the ones to cynically disabuse I hope that cynicism doesn't return but you know we are very good at talking about things we are less good at implementing them and that's where I think the partnership with business is so critically important I like the fact that Scotland is a small place I like the fact that we can engage with each other I hope pick the phone up to each other and complain as well as praise but actually where we sometimes fall down is our aspiration is not matched by our delivery and we need you as partners in that because sometimes the machinery of government moves slowly and that's not a deliberate thing it's the way it is and we need to get to be a little bit more less cautious, less risk advice, let's try things, let's do them because I think the benefit of it being a small place in us knowing everybody is self-evident so don't be too disappointed or cynical but what I would say to you is there are plenty of opportunities to engage with MSPs the economy committee or other committees to engage with government ministers are accessible and if they're not you can come through us and we shouted them in the chamber there's lots of opportunities for you so I wouldn't be cynical and Dean it's a great question, I think your optimism is well founded I think there is Scotland's got tremendous potential world class universities world class cities, world class workforce we really need to work together to realise that potential digital and broadband the discussion can be about cables and cabinets but I think more importantly we need a digital strategy a strategy to maximise on the opportunities available for e-commerce and I think that's where business comes in because you guys will understand the opportunities you'll understand what you need and that's the dialogue we need back from you to educate us as to what you need to make to take advantage of those opportunities this place is not short of policy there's lots of policy announcements from all parties I think what really needs to the focus should be on implementation I think that's where things have fallen down and there's only business saying it's all very well having a first class strategy but unless you implement it it's not worth the paper it's written on so I think there's a building, a growing consensus around focusing on implementing policy and for that to be a real focus going forward rather than cynicism I could use the word frustration because it's a frustration that's shared by politicians too in the sense that quite often we debate issues at length and it takes repetition over many years often just for the public to even recognise that we're talking about a subject and then for that behavioural change projects we're in here there's a number of MSPs that have been here I won't embarrass them by saying how long and we are debating issues now which we've debated 5 years ago and 10 years ago but change is incremental sometimes so it's not that we're ignoring you it's that it sometimes changes difficult that's all I'm going to bring Serene once to ask a question a really difficult question I think and it's also I'm just conscious of the time I'm going to ask you to speak shortly but I would ask the rest of the panel if I may just to think about concluding remarks as well as responding to Serene's question Serene Just a quick word on the relevance of the economic performance and employment in terms of spending priorities I completely agree that health and education not just politically but de facto are incredibly important but we absolutely must have some real focus in the medium term on improving our economic performance and improving our GDP because if we're really going to solve our problems in the long term we need to earn more money we need to economically perform better we need to earn more money so we're just coming to the end of and you talk implementation implementation of the current skills and enterprise review is incredibly important really important in translating what you've got I'm just going to make the point again if we're really going to if that's really going to have an impact on our economic performance and on our jobs I need to tell you from my review leading the view on the young people employment frankly by far the strongest solution was to produce more good quality jobs for young people and for creating creating wealth key thing right now in implementation is to get the strength of the agencies those who will be in touch with the punters on what's actually happening in the business and in the economy it's very important you get that right Jackie first I couldn't agree more I think growth absolutely has to be the ambition of the Scottish Government working with all of you in business if we have a growing economy employment is likely to be higher skill levels are likely to be better and we get more money to spend on public services but what's not to like about that to be frank and if we're being honest our Scottish economy is fragile you know it's not growing at the rate we would want forecast suggests 1% 1.2% and we regularly underperform the rest of the UK but I am absolutely seized with the idea that there are huge opportunities out there we've discussed in some of the workshops the low hanging fruit that we could actually exploit as businesses, as government, as Parliament but there are also medium and long term things we need to get right now and if there is ever a time where I've wanted politics to be less short term it is now because we have real challenges ahead and unless we plan for the medium and long term my fear is we won't meet those challenges but we have the talent, the skills, the opportunity the ambition sitting in this room and outside this room to actually make it happen and I will certainly pledge my party and myself even though I might have been here a long time according to the Presiding Officer to doing exactly that Tavish Can I just make three points I mean I fundamentally agree with Sir Ian's contentions and indeed Jackie's analysis so three very quick points the first is I would want to ensure or encourage more business involvement in the strategic decisions that we do make in the city region workshop we had earlier on Lord Hock made a very strong argument about the Glasgow city deal ultimately in the first instance being the creation of the local government wish list on transport projects and Keith very sensibly said these things are evolving and changing I would argue that needs to happen all the more so so when the budget process happens in here and David does this all the time but when the budget process doesn't happen in here remember it's your budget as well so I would encourage that second point is this is maybe my NHS point when Leah Hutchison gave a presentation this morning the bit that struck me most as someone who is trying to get his mum into an appointment at our local health centre is she described an appointment system why couldn't we ask our NHS to look at what Leah does and take it and use it to provide a much more efficient appointment system for the entire NHS which if I may say so ain't too good at it so I would like that's my one private sector suggestion and the final point is this is your parliament Presiding Officer was right in his earlier remarks it's your opportunity to use this that's why this conference I think is really important because it doesn't make us sit here and take it from you but it is your parliament it is your budget process it's your ability to influence in this case the economy committee as well so better will be so please remember that and Dean look I've got a simple view in life we all want better services of better Scotland to do that we need to grow the pie it's not about dividing up the pie it's about growing the pie and the private sector is critical to that we need to expand the private sector in Scotland there was an excellent audit Scotland report last year that made this point precisely now to do that we need policies that encourage global innovation to come to Scotland and we're about to embark on a debate on taxation we face a new reality Scotland is in tax competition with the rest of the UK as well as the rest of the world and I think to create those paid jobs to attract the global innovators of the world to come to Scotland making Scotland the highest tax paid tax part of the United Kingdom is not the answer nice controversial note to end on this but we're actually going to give I'm going to give Keith the last word but before I do can I ask you all to thank our panel for answering all our questions as openly as they have done if I could I'd like to ask our co-host the co-host of the business in the Parliament conference Keith Brown MSP Cabinet Secretary for Economy, Jobs and Fair Work to come up and to address the conference thank you thank you very much in case I forget can I also thank previous speakers the First Minister Leah Hutchins Norris Sr for their reflections earlier on the point that Tavish Scots just made I think a very important one and it's very easy at this point to drive it home that this is your Parliament you're sitting in the chamber of the Scottish Parliament and when I was first elected 10 years ago like most MSPs you bring groups into the chamber and one day I came in and there was the then presiding officer a group that I brought in from my constituency and said welcome to your Parliament so it's a very important point I think that Tavish is making and it's driven home by the fact that you're sitting in these seats and also again as Tavish is saying it's your budget as well it's your money we're going to be spending so please get in touch and let us know what your views on that are and I think that underlines the importance of this event it's one of a number of direct links that the Scottish Parliament and the Scottish Government has with the business community and perhaps the most refreshing part for me today is hearing there was no cynicism on the Tory benches so I was very appreciative of that just kidding Dean it's just a joke but to hear that view expressed where somebody feels they've got a great deal out of today and is now looking to see how we follow that through is a challenge of course it's a challenge to the Government but it's also a challenge to all the MSPs that are here as well we have to try and live up to that and what would be useful to know exactly and what are the things that you've heard today that you expect to see delivery on and I have to say both for MSPs and the Government most people in most workshops will have heard contradictory things so there's no way that we can achieve everything that everybody asks for but it is important that we can demonstrate the effectiveness, the efficacy of this event and I know that the Presiding Officer himself has undertaken a review of this event I think today I understand that the figures are up in two years ago and most people I've spoken to have found it to be a positive experience but we have to build on that and make sure it stays relevant Obviously the emphasis is in working with businesses in Scotland and as a Government and I'm speaking here on behalf of the Government we aim to enhance our engagement with businesses and I've mentioned the fact that we are currently reviewing that to build as all the MSPs you've heard from want to see a stronger, fairer and a more sustainable Scottish economy and we heard as I've mentioned from Nora's senior about the role of business in the economy and I think from my own point of view that bringing in a business woman of her standing for a key role such as the chair of the enterprise and skills review strategic board demonstrates how highly we value the voice and experience of industry in developing our country and I know that many people expected that at that point we would be a Government minister and people like Ian Wood and others suggested otherwise I think that demonstrates both the fact that we're listening and it's a very good choice being made for that particular position and it looks up today looked in detail at the accessibility of Parliament and Government and I'd like to highlight some of the ways in which I feel that we can all benefit from a stronger, better collaboration between Government and business one of those is quite intangible that you feel that it's accessible that you feel if you really need to you can get in touch and I take on board the one point that was made where that didn't seem to work and that's up to us to correct that but events like this allow us to speak directly to the business world en masse and it's bound to be only the tip of the iceberg so last year Scottish Government officials and ministers engaged directly with business at almost 500 events with over 1000 business leaders so we want to be clear that we are listening to you chief amongst that are people in my portfolio Paul Wheelhouse who's here, Jamie Hepburn who deals with employability but also the Deputy First Minister and so on and it's something we work very hard at talking to SCDI back down home after midnight straight to talking to SCDI the next day and throughout the day and virtually every day we are meeting with businesses either through your representative organisations or individually and that's as it should be but we have to make sure it's as effective as possible business rates was mentioned and I think I should mention that and also again I think one of the problems was accessing the Barthley review on that issue you have to say that it's up to Ken Barthley how he goes about gathering his evidence but the establishment of that review was basically to underline the fact we want to listen to the concerns that you've said and we've heard about renewables it was also true the north-east in particular also particularly true for the hospitality industry and what's being produced so far are Ken Barthley's recommendations obviously we've had a response from the cabinet secretary about how we intend to take most of those forward and also one or two that we want to take more time about but it is an example of the fact that business told us that rates had to be modernised and we're taking steps to do just that and I was very pleased that very quickly after Ken Barthley produced his review Derek Mackay was here in the chamber providing a positive response to that review and it's had a very positive response from most of the main business bodies although I accept there are still issues at individual sectors and businesses may have procurement's being mentioned sometimes not least in relation to the NHS previously I used to do procurement in the Scottish Government it's a difficult thing certainly to get everybody happy with the way it's done you do have that tension, first of all you have to make it transparent and fair to everybody you also have to make it compliant as things stand within the European Union and a great deal of the law underpinning procurement comes from the European Union and also you want there is nobody in this chamber from any party that does not want to see businesses small and otherwise winning these contracts but if you were to close that completely then you would also inevitably close off opportunities for Scottish businesses to win businesses elsewhere because same people overseas would take protectionist measures so we have to try and make sure it's as fair as possible and we try to do that and it's quite possible we don't get it right we have to listen to what's being said and we certainly want to encourage the point that was made about innovation and the point about 50-year contracts in the NHS I would certainly ask if it's possible to give me the details of that it may well be Derek Mackay that has to respond because it comes into his area I'd be very interested in hearing about that because once again there is unanimity in the Parliament if we can save money on the NHS budget that allows us to deal with the pressures then why would we not want to do that but we do have procurement rules which we have to abide by we've been working to make sure that small businesses in Scotland to engage in the public procurement exercises and as has been mentioned SMEs make up the vast majority of Scottish businesses so we're making it easier the old PFI contracts were extremely different difficult for small businesses to get involved in other than sometimes as subcontractors so we've tried to address that for example we provided £157,000 this year to support the supplier development programme which provides free tender training and support to small businesses across Scotland industry representatives have been key in steering our procurement reform programme and in the development of tools used by suppliers as part of the procurement journey so we are talking when we come up with the reforms to procurement we are talking to industry you may come back and say and I'm perfectly willing to hear that it's not representative from industry we think it is but if you think there's a sector of industry that we're not listening to it then please let us know that we're going to process more user friendly and more open to access for Scottish business I don't know I don't think any of us know how Brexit is going to play out in full but it certainly seems likely that's going to change some of the ground rules for procurement so that lays on in discussion with the business base is extremely important over the coming months the workshop that I was involved in was on city deals and of course again as Willie Hau mentioned there are real procurement opportunities SMEs and others in the city deals and of course we have covered four of the city still three more with two city deals to do and beyond that potentially growth deals in other parts of Scotland so these each represent major procurement opportunities for the SMEs sector in Scotland and the regional partnerships which deliver the city and region deals bring together local authorities local authorities like us they want to see local businesses thrive they have no prejudice trying to support some outwith Scotland to win those contracts so they're in the lead they're in the vanguard of city deals along with private sector partners so there is nobody here that's trying to stop small businesses in Scotland or even more locally than that winning contracts but we have to do it in a fair and legal way that's the crucial part of it those partnerships also bring together economic development agencies businesses education and par excellence in the northeast Aberdeen and Aberdeenshire as we heard in our workshop through one northeast is a fantastic example of that collaboration between the private sector I would say in that case led by the private sector not least through Ian Wood and if you can get those kind of partnerships spreading across Scotland which I know is what Ian is seeking to achieve then we have no reason to stop that but it's up to the private sector and those that should be working with them to make sure that happens and bring that forward we want to see those regional partnerships that are based on the city deal areas as currently constructed but we have to make sure that they represent their communities and we have been clear that if those are to be established and the government will look at any initiatives that come from that then it has to involve the private sector so Tom Hunter also and Opportunity North East together have been instrumental in the innovation projects included in the Aberdeen city and Shire deal and looking at that I'm not sure that Tom Hunter was involved in that so that's one for the scriptwriters there but one of the most important parts of that deal and again Ian mentioned it in our workshop was the oil and gas technology centre and one reason it's important to mention that is because many of the city deals have at their heart infrastructure projects this was about innovation about trying to get new business about making sure that the supply sector in terms of the north-east is properly looked after because what we've got particularly in sub-sea technology is something that we can take around the world I went to the intercept conference in Abu Dhabi where we had 80 Scottish suppliers some of whom, if they're honest looked to the north-east, the north-sea alone and realised obviously with a downturn in the oil price they had to look further afield so what we can do to help them and working with the oil and gas technology centre which we've supported along with the UK government is very important because it's a partnership resulting in the launch for example of the imaging centre of excellence which brings together industry, health as we talked about before and academia and that's been identified as contributing £88 million to the local economy the most recent deal that we've signed is a city and region deal for Edinburgh that includes £300 million for digital innovation interestingly that also included housing not something that we'd naturally go to in terms of a city deal but we need to have accessible affordable housing if they're to grow further economically so that's why that was included digital, I think Dean mentioned digital being a strong and growing sector in Scotland but also requiring us to make sure the infrastructure is there in 2010 it was estimated that almost 200,000 people were in direct deployment associated with Scotland's e-commerce so we want to, we are well aware and we had a discussion about this previously again just over here about the further potential there is for e-commerce so we want to further embrace digital and in March this year we launched our digital strategy we've invested significantly in skills and capability through for example digital superfast broadband that delivers around £400 million of investment to extend fibre broadband throughout Scotland and also digital boost which is mentioned by the First Minister it's a national training and advice service on the grounds of Scottish Government funding the First Minister gave us quite a frightening figure in terms of the 70 companies responsible for around 50% of our exports another figure is that if you go to Bavaria which Paul Wheelhouse has visited around 75% and it goes back to a point that was made about a very small microbusiness 75% of all businesses in Bavaria export in Scotland it's around 7% that gives you some idea of the potential there is there for growth large part depend on things like digital connectivity and we're well seized of that we also have Hello Digital a digital excellent centre in Inverness linked to highs work to roll out the next generation of internet across the region and also digital tourism Scotland a three year project aimed at improving digital skills and capabilities of our vital tourism businesses and digital as we said in our workshop is important of course it's important for e-commerce but for individuals especially in rural areas it's sometimes more important in the road or the rail network the ability to access employment opportunities education opportunities and even health opportunities as well so we have given the commitment that everybody including all businesses will be connected to superfast broadband by 2021 and the big fear in government is that somebody moves to St Kilda and that presents us with a big challenge in terms of making sure that every last person is connected but it's not just the giant firms that make advantage either small business can be successful in the market and the ONS stats which have been produced show that businesses with less than 10 employees had a total e-commerce turnover 21.2 billion pounds in the UK in 2015 small and medium sized businesses make up the vast majority of our Scottish business base and the employer in 1.2 million people so we need to harness ambition to develop that market and in March the First Minister announced 21.2 million pounds digital growth fund to help our SMEs respond to those digital opportunities I've mentioned international the First Minister mentioned exports as well there are clear indicators that we have in terms of success for our economic strategies such as in exporting since 2009 and this kind of contradicts what I've just said about the number of companies involved in exporting but since 2007 and despite the global financial crisis Scottish exports have increased by 41% and in face of what I think and was perhaps very heavily hinted up by Leah earlier on the enormous threat posed by Brexit we are doing what we can to work with the business community through our economic development agencies so that's got to involve of necessity greater international export ambition and supporting that ambition with practical assistance and expertise and all these points about Global Scots, the points you've taken talking to Global Scots as a group previously we're about to bring forward some new innovations in terms of trade envoys and it goes to Dean's point about making sure it's more focused so those things have been taken on board it's well known that exporting I think the First Minister made this point is linked to productivity if you're exporting it tends to be the case you're exporting into a more productive and competitive economy in many cases that in turn puts the pressure on you to be more productive here and the advantage that the UK has got and Scotland had an even bigger challenge in the UK although we've substantially closed that gap that we're still well behind the French and the Germans and we have to cut further close that so exporting and productivity have improved but we've a way to go to make sure that we're in that top quartile of the OECD and the last comments I would make are about inclusive employment and many of the questions that we had during the Q&A just now were about that and that is one of the ways that we encourage inclusive employment practices there's clear evidence that more equal societies enjoy stronger, more sustainable and successful economies and the UK is one of the most unequal societies that we have less so than the US but one of the most unequal and if you have a proportion of people if it's women, if it's people sometimes with disabilities who are excluded from that economy that growth then you're not achieving your full potential that's a simple point so even if you don't accept the moral argument for making sure that everyone gets a fair share of growth even if you don't accept that and you're looking at simply on economic grounds we're not making the best use of the resources that we have and if we did that if we massively increased the number of women-led businesses then of course we can start to see benefits in terms of the economy generally we've been supporting that aim of inclusive growth through the business pledge approaching now the 400th signatory where over 900 scots based living wage accredited employers around 80% of the population but they're not just about doing the right thing it's about beneficial business outcomes such as improved recruitment for many businesses here, especially small businesses you'll be well aware of the cost and the time that goes into recruitment and retention of staff especially when you're sitting with around below 4% unemployment just now paying living wage, recognising the value of your employees is a good business for keeping your own people, the people who you've invested in within the business so that success I think is to be celebrated and that's in the context of acknowledging that we are on a journey and a great deal to do to create an economy that is inclusive of place and inclusive of people and through that fair work agenda which is part of my portfolio we're committed to reducing the employment gap people with disabilities through the new delivery plan of fairer Scotland for disabled people and one of the toughest things for any government this or previous governments to deal effectively with but something we're determined to do people from minority ethnic groups again we have an action plan being published next month and we've mentioned women through investing for example in the trade union fair work and modernisation fund as well as a family friendly working Scotland and close the gap initiatives which you've heard about all of that contributes towards developing an economy which thrives on inclusive growth with the mutually reinforcing objectives also of increasing competitiveness and also tackling inequality at the root of that I think is something I mentioned earlier on we are an innovative business minded nation with I think a government that's working hard to support sustainable inclusive economic growth and we're making progress and the government can do so much but as came out in our workshop one of the things is very intangible it's about that idea of entrepreneurs going out and winning business and I apologise for those that have heard me say this in the workshop but in my constituency we have this thing Johnny Walker's original book where he's listed the recipe and the ingredients for producing his first batch of whisky and if you go back to that time in Scotland the way that people went out in one business of course there were issues with language maybe tariffs and sometimes much more brutal impediments to business in the past as well but they went out and did it and didn't feel they had to wait for permission from government they went out and won that business themselves that idea and the idea you don't need permission from a development agency a council or the government you can go out and do these things and you'll be supported in them it's a very intangible thing to have but it's absolutely central to a successful economy and the other point, as it happens in the US if you do try something and you don't manage to be successful the idea that society doesn't pile and condemn you forever more we've got to start encouraging that that was part of what the First Minister said we can't do it in isolation we do have to have the feedback from this event and others also the expertise and support of businesses who can tell us what we have to do to achieve that and also to help us with Thumbold programmes to create that world-class inclusive economy so the government and I know the Parliament through the Presiding Officer will continue to seek engagement with business and continue to listen the focus that we have though on inclusive growth which I think you shared across all the parties in the Parliament aims to create a Scotland community where you can thrive no matter where in Scotland you'll live or what your gender is or what your background is and where businesses can flourish and grow as part of that inclusive, fair and prosperous innovative country and again and I hate to name-check him again but Dean, my Conservative opponent is exactly right if we can increase the pie then the issues that have been raised about health and education are easier to deal with we all have a vested interest in increasing that pie and if this event helps us to do that then it has to be a worthwhile thing thank you very much thank you very much Keith not just for your contribution there but for your contribution to the whole conference I would like to repeat my thanks to all our speakers and panellists, to our many MSP colleagues too many to mention here but thank you most of all my thanks to you members and representatives of the business community it's all about you I hope that you felt it was worthwhile I hope you're not frustrated or listened to and that you have made a difference I certainly would like to express my appreciation for the benefit of your insights and experience and can I wish you all a safe journey home thank you