Oh, yeah, yeah, like a lot of Dark Souls's DNA comes from Demon Souls, but at the same time It's refined to a point that most people would say like it's not fair to say that Isn't like it Dark Souls is the one that truly did popularize the whole thing is probably why everything's named after it Yeah Even though souls technically, you know Dark Souls is still the one that everyone's like there you go Most people say to start with Dark Souls and it's like why not start with Demon Souls and a lot of people would argue Demon Souls a bit too Is the word esoteric Where it's like Yeah, kind of it's it's esoteric's words. It's kind of useful for this, but it's uh like niche Kind of the only thing is it got remastered and so that one I'm pretty sure is much easier to consume Than the original but I remember like There's a vibe right when a friend recommends a video game and then they say like well wait don't play it Without wait when you're gonna play it let me know and I'll get you all the right mods And I'll let you know the few things you need to know before going in just be like, oh It's a little bit off putting right Yeah, I try to avoid that sort of thing unless it's like really important if there is actually like there is one Two really big things you need to know before you go in But usually that isn't like an issue Mm-hmm normally when people go into a game I just let them go in let it wash all over them let them get the experience But you know sometimes there's that like one or two things that just for their sake you want to be like yeah Just just do one or two things or quit You know change this setting to that or or bind that one key and then you know go in you like trust me Yeah, don't want to like spoil the experience Well like a hang one you reach the skeleton guy with the spear make sure that you do the this put this ring on Otherwise you fuck up a whole game But only on your left hand important and Well, yeah, and if there's any one of those is fine But yeah, if there's like loads like a laundry list you can like I don't know man at that point And maybe just I'll play someone else Because a follow New Vegas I think if ever anyone goes to play that right isn't there like a very big list of recommended mods There probably is That's a game that I would just say people can go into as it is though But yeah, I'm I'm certain there's tons of good, you know mods for it. I Know there is I mean it's a Bethesda game. There's gonna be great mods for it Yeah, as far as I'm waiting still it still works without mods right the game It's yeah, if so if someone was to say Rags you sure are playing a lot of rimworld boy. That sure looks like fun. I'm gonna play rimworld I'll say you bet. I'm glad you're playing rimworld great game. Here's like three mods I think you should start out with though, you know, you should get P music rimworld, you know Whatever and it's just good download those mods They're just a little quality of life little things and then go for it and then just tailor your experience to whatever you want after that The world of video games am I right boy? I sure do love video games. Yeah. Oh, yeah But also welcome to eFab episode 254 wow every frame of pause It's gonna be crazy so far I'll guest for this wonderful episode is none other than Solar sands a lad who's been around in in the leaf up chat for a while and became relatively I guess relevant to the episode two weeks or three weeks ago When we were talking about some art things one of his videos were actually covered by a person who's being covered by another person that we were Covering it's a bit of a confusing tale But I said at the time we'll try and get you on have you have your own episode so we can chat with you about Maybe art maybe your experiences on the old YouTube's and maybe we could check out the video the very video That Charlie was watching to better understand Why? King Cade might very well be the most hated artist that we probably Recognize as the title goes welcome welcome sir. How you doing? Hello? Yes. Hi. Thanks Thanks for having me on I've been watching for about four years or so and Well, and a crazy that I'm on because of this whole thing. I run an art channel Basically, I make little art documentaries when people might call them video essays My god, I don't know about I Just consider them videos of things. I like to talk about but some people call them that so I guess I call them that too Mm-hmm. Yeah, I've been doing it for about seven years now. I like to think I'm Me too. I know about Yeah, I like to think I know a lot about art Art history and yeah, so I guess I want to go a little bit into the pre a little preamble Do it video you guys to react it to and video I made so basically Thomas Kincaid is an interesting character to me. He's a he's outside of the art world, but he's also Well, he was outside of the art world I Extremely financially successful, but there's also this kind of controversial figure I mean that the video we're gonna watch goes into that The guy who who mentioned who talked about the video the one who is responding to Charlie Yeah, Ethan is online he he kind of missed the point of the video which was fascinating He said he seems to have watched it Well, he's the photons got to his eyes. I don't know what happened after that complicated Yeah, but he he tried to defend modern art essentially or I mean so there's was made Yeah, there's this period Called modern art, which is like from the 60s to the 70s But we're past that now. So so people call it contemporary art I think would be like the more quote-unquote accurate term, but everybody says modern art anyway So and everybody knows what you mean. So That's that But he did not really do there's ways to defend modern art and he didn't really do any of that he didn't Take the arguments I would have made or that I think anyone Is being at her faith would have made Well, that's why we brought up a few things here and there that were like, you know Pieces of what would be considered modern art that uh, we think is actually like pretty valuable and took A lot of introspection to create compared to like, you know a white canvas Because there has to be categories or limits or borders in some ways Otherwise nothing is going to have any way of distinguishing between each other and You know, we tried to go through to the categories like you can have great works of art that have very too little Uh, meaning may be injected by the artists like they're just Uh, expressing maybe this skill But then you could have the vice versa of someone who's like, I just have an apple But man, I got a big story to tell you about why I'm holding this apple and you're just like, okay And I guess changing those levels. How does that work and what does it mean and You know, admitting there's a complexity to it, but at the same time, uh, the video we watched felt like a bitter response The idea that like a skilled painting. So that's not really even art But this the the fan that's truly art because it's encased in plastic and it has this huge amount of law and it's like, okay It came across as a very reactionary anti-traditional anti-classical attitude towards what we consider to be generally like the works of antiquity Or any sort of uh, laudation of skill or talent Um or technique Yeah, exactly. It's a very it's very I think I would say like Kind of a false binary to me um, but like, yeah, essentially the Yeah, that's that's exactly correct. There's like plenty of modern There's plenty of modern works, modern art Examples that I could point to that I think are just better in terms of like more accessible other stuff, um the history of art from Like the 50s till today. It's a lot of artists You know doing things See what sticks, um, I can put it like that for example, there's Like like basically everything that you could think of has been done, you know, like a slash canvas has been been a museum Are they the famous Duchamp's uh urinal? Or there's there's even been a art gallery of invisible sculptures Oh Do they get there? Yeah, do they have like labels? At least I don't uh, I don't remember if they have labels, but it was just a lot of empty rooms Yeah, so that's happened Um, so there is a lot of there is a There is a lot of uh, just art Am I guess, you know like putting things together? Okay, has this been done? Well, let's do that. You know, there's kind of that stuff, but there's also a lot of good stuff um, and Mahler you made a comment that that was kind of funny. You said Jackson Pollock's brother now like, oh What if he you made some sort of a analogy Jackson Pollock actually did have a brother His name was Charles Pollock and he was a color field painter He's uh, not as well known So I thought that was funny. Um, oh, okay And he doesn't make drip paintings. He makes like The paintings that are big blogs uh, blogs big blocks of color Just um Canvas so it all is kind of under the abstract expressionist Uh, so yeah, that's about it for my preamble. Um, if you guys have any specific questions Well, probably um the video will be good for a vehicle for that right so to sort of jump in here and there for different things out of uh Curiosity because you you said as you said you Who did seem the show for some time? Um, how did you find? EFAP every frame a pause and uh Out of curiosity, what about the show do you find uh interesting? Do you want me to To retell the story so well, yeah I mean, uh, we we got to speak to you for about I don't know 10 minutes before we started up and uh I figured when we I was listening to you.  We've probably done this live a little bit Because people are gonna want to hear what you uh, because it is fair to see how people meet up, you know Yeah, I can I can say um, so basically I heard first heard about Mahler's channel um Probably a twitter thread or something like that and it said don't watch these videos They're there's movie analysis from an alt-right perspective So for that reason I kind of avoided your channel initially for of I don't know like a month or so but eventually, um I think this was a bit after The last Jedi came out one of your videos got recommended to me Mm-hmm the force awakens and I was like and this is a really long video I'm very curious how someone can make an alt-right perspective video this long and this detailed um And then I watched it It grabbed my attention I watched it for a few hours and I was like, oh, this is just a a normal analysis of it. Yeah, that's kind of the idea anyway It's just going into into extreme detail on this I'm franchise. I like I don't know what they were talking about Well, it was weird like trying to approach storytelling Without having a bias in real life so to speak to draw from To instead try to just simply talk about how it connects within and of itself in terms of established stuff I remember at one point I can't remember which YouTuber it was but one of them said like that's a very right wing point of view and I was like, why would you seed Looking at whether or not things make sense to the right wing. That's a weird That's a weird uh, I don't think I'm sure that you appreciate that All right, fine. We'll take it. It's like oh Yeah, exactly The movie reviewers I tended to watch before you. Well, this was like A decent amount of time before like a few years. I watched like Like in middle school. I watched the nostalgia critic. Yeah classic I mean Anybody who's watching film reviews back when youtube was started up a lot of them would have been watching Nostalgia Critic because he was He's known as being one of the older ones. Yeah, he's one of the kind of pioneers in a sense Well, it's something that I think is unfair a lot of people say when you bring up avgn That you have to respect the guy because he essentially started up like an industry on youtube And it's like, okay, but can we say the same for nostalgia critic then please give him the respect He came in early. He did his stuff Look at him go making skits Inspired everyone he practically determined the format for another like billion different content creators So Yeah, I I unironically loved him a little bit. I think he's a goober. I don't know how well Did you uh, did you see the we we checked out his I think it was on the anniversary Is uh his video on the section of a video on the Lion King 2019 where he said like We've got to appreciate that we need these movies in order to have good content Oh that feels like what the hell I don't think he I don't think he's very good at having consistent takes or even no being good at analysis But I love this So unique I love what he plays makes fun of him He makes me laugh something. He's gotten me to laugh a few times I watched one of his videos to see what they were like and I was like, okay There's there's a funny joke the first In it of this I'm not gonna watch any more but this is a He got me to laugh once at this end so As someone I love in chat just said I was so hyped for to boldly flee and I have no shame for that nor should you That was a cinematic event and the Many gathered around for that. I think we're gonna try and watch those at some point. That's gonna be Why don't you talk about the The channel or some movies. There's like four of them or something Oh, I had some idea to boldly flee has got like famous production issues of people like suffering to create Broke apart shadow.  Sorry go on Yeah, um But yeah, so not in solid critic and eventually I started watching your movie sucks Mm-hmm, which I think is Closer to your content definitely. Yeah And eventually the plinket reviews and red letter media And then I watched yours and your channel was different because it was a less it was less like Okay, here's some here's these general guidelines that air may not work they're like Ocean-based and yours was more like This contradicts this this contradicts that this blah blah blah blah I was like, okay that's I like this style analysis more because we can say definitively When something Is isn't working or is working like mechanically And I like to think I have or No, a mind that likes measurement and It's precise myself But I do like that kind of standard that you set up And that's why it's not just floaty. I feel this I feel that well There's something that's grounded to it. Yeah, something that you could actually explain to people other than This is how I felt when I watched this thing. You can actually point to its attributes You can describe them to people you can sort of Share information in a way Uh, yes, it's supposed to be verifiable beyond your point of view, right? Like definitively Exactly that's over there and it doesn't make sense with that thing, right? You don't go like oh, I think it makes sense That's how I feel. It's like wait what even though that does happen to be fair um And to be fair you could have been wrong about it not making sense because you lack information But that's the that's the process I suppose Well, and if you are wrong with something Then you have more to work with than oh, I feel you're wrong. Yeah Yeah, I I watched a lot of I've watched a you a decent chunk of video essays out on movies and stuff and I I do think there's certainly this tendency for a video essay to have this you know grand weighty You know, yeah insightful Message what did we learn sort of thing? Yeah And I think they get weighed down a lot by that because it just becomes It's This oversaturated emotional I think it becomes self parody at one point, right? Because uh the formula gets set There's a lot of channels on youtube that understand perfectly. You need it to be about 20 to 30 minutes First half like explaining You know, how this all happened where it all came from and then just some kind of emotional call that you have to figure out I remember I can't remember who it was But there was a youtuber who said like they It's ruined it at this point because like weekly they just watch a new movie And the one goal they have when watching it is you've got to figure out um Maybe not even a theme but just something from the film Like if you watch a higher man and you're just like what's what what do we take from always stand up for yourself? I don't know always be strong Always change your mind when you need to or something that that'll work And then they end up like pumping videos out so often That are supposed to have like a profound message It'll start to become parody and they're oftentimes quite funny. That's what ends up happening when we cover them We're just like iron man is about understanding That there's so much more to the world and just money And you're like what what like is that even what iron man's about? I don't even like uh And then it's the dramatic pauses the text on screen The almost like they're gonna break down into fears Yeah, and they'll have like a invented story about how their grandpa used to Tell them the money's the only thing that matters, but then They'll just tell lies After the uh, the red shadow legends add yeah More A life that's beyond money Let me introduce you to our sponsor rage Yeah, I've been a red shadow legends one of the most ambitious RPGs. There's a ukulele whistling sound Just like Yeah, but it's the it's the it's the what's it the kazoo the Yeah, probably And it's yeah, this is like, how the hell did we get here?  It's like you okay Yeah, it's just when that happens every time. Yeah, it becomes uh too much Yeah, I think this can like relate to art history a lot because people have this uh idea that You know art history is okay. Tell us what the painting made you feel do do this interpretation and stuff, but In actual like academic art history and art analysis, you don't do a lot of that You actually have to basically they actually discourage you from oh how this make you feel it They tell you what okay analyze what's actually there make conclusions based on what is in the painting What's what is here? Look do your research on like what the historical context of this is at your sources Etc etc And that makes you know, that's like a little a much stronger Way to analyze something other than You know, this is this is what this reminds me I do some of the this is what this reminds me of oh, this is what I feel about it on the channel because it's A lot more of a free youtube thing But I remind everybody you're human, which is a good your bonus Yeah, exactly, and that's what youtube is format, but I think people are taking it way too far like I'm I'm really trying to make an effort these days to um Make a very comprehensive list of all the references and sources I have in a in a text document because Uh, it's a lot more organized and you can link back to what you have And even this video I made here is like very little of my Like strictly my interpretation or opinion. It's it's more of a accounting.  But the reality is of course the thomas kinkade is making images that might be associated with Very much high quality to anyone who's not familiar What he gets up to and why in the industry surrounding and stuff and so the video As I understand it is to try and provide context for that um, yes, meanwhile Ethan is online kind of took it a different direction of like It's all soulless work that Doesn't have any meaning and the art is supposed to be but because it's so funny He lets you know right at the beginning of his video.  I understood And I learned to appreciate the banana taped to the wall Well, the greatest irony of the whole video I think we pointed this out a couple times was that he's like you need to actually, you know, think deeper think more and Understand how it makes you feel when he told us again and again That what made him appreciate any piece of artwork is being told by the creator what to think about it Um, which by the way, I'm more than happy to include context from the creator when checking out a piece of artwork I have no problem with that. It's just that It's difficult, I think to argue from a position of the value of art is coming strictly from reading the flavor text Uh It shouldn't be from the thing itself alone or whatever when it's like, holy shit There's so many pieces of art in the world that I find like Fascinating on mind blowing and I didn't require an artist to tell me what it's what it means. You know what I mean Yeah Oh Yeah, I know this video, uh pretty well, uh, since I made it so yeah, that makes sense I don't know if I'm gonna do a lot of pausing Well, presumably you're familiar with the show and at that point we're probably just gonna talk about things that come to mind and uh All right. Yeah, this yeah video Uh, wait, if I got I loaded up the right one, I think right the most It's the right one. Yeah, big buck bunny. I really like big. It's really good. It's really good Big buck bunny is underrated. Yeah What's interesting here is that um The video is called the most hated artist you probably recognize I put it into watch together and The preview description or is it the description says to hate a thomas king cage? Yeah, that's the like subtitle Right, funny story. I I was like this is the tent title. I like It's not the title get that gets clicks. Oh, I change.  Yeah It's a format that the works right having a bit of mystery there Yeah Exactly, um, okay Uh, I think I caused it Yeah, I mean, well here we go using this Apologies if I these paintings make my corneas hurt I'm ashamed that this artist lived in my former hometown the george w bush of art worthless I don't even know what that means. They are the george w bush of art. They are awful. Simply awful It belongs in the trash.  Yeah, so these quotes were read out under charlie assumed this was about like, uh A jackson pollock or I forget the other one he named Um, which is interesting. Yeah, because you get to it's almost fun to see people react to this to be like Who we talking about if you don't know, you know going in Those are all real quotes from comments reviews and articles concerning one artist and his work Gee these paintings must be pretty bad then, huh? What are they pictures of babies eating each other alive the scatological scribbles of a lunatic? No, these are the kinds of paintings those quotes are referring to Now if you're like me, you might be a bit confused It's um, it's fascinating to me because uh, I've seen a decent chunk of this video And I was thinking to myself because I didn't have the context I was like if I would have come up with a reason for why people would hate these Maybe it's in in how they were created. Maybe there's something I don't know and it's like really factory level or something um You know like like trying to think of what context could be because fundamentally it seems Inconsistent uh on its face right because it's like why would you hate this? But the thing is like so many people don't know more context, but to be fair once you have all of the context I don't think everyone's going to hate them anyway Exactly I I don't well it gets into it, but I I don't hate these paintings even what's there to hate These are the puzzles that your grandparents put together That was what I was going to say that was like the hatred comes from like all this additional context because seeing this in isolation It's like why would you hate this? It's a lovely image So this is this is something uh, I wish I had brought up in the video, but it it only came back later So, you know Jackson Pollock, you know the famous uh, oh artist shit guy That everybody defends for modern art. He um, he kind of killed somebody What? What? Yeah, did they slap on one of his paintings? He kind of killed somebody He uh, he was he was drunk driving with somebody and he smashed into a tree And they both died down Oh, so yeah, he kind of that's that's the end of Jackson Pollock. He kind of killed somebody Uh, so I just find it ironic that you know, they everybody defends Jackson Pollock He has this moral baggage to him as well. Yeah, I mean that would suck make me Yeah, that doesn't make me like oh these paintings are bad now Oh Well something that was mentioned I think in a top comment, um that we I current if we piece it together or not, but it was fascinating that um, one of the pluses Ethan is online gave to Pollock was the in his work His work is like partially fueled by the experiences he had as a child He had like a lot of trauma that comes through Meanwhile, Kincaid clearly has trauma and uh, we we like discount it like it couldn't possibly be attached to the work And if so if one said like obviously, there's no where's the trauma in this image It's like no, no, no, you you you'd argue that maybe it's few of the artist That was the village where he was brutally It's like a wholesome fairytale village where he was brutally Attacked, but yeah, I was gonna say like you you could argue the do you almost say murdered where he was brutally I was gonna say it would really make This is where I was murdered Maybe drew it in heaven But uh all painted but I was going to say it can go the reverse direction You can you could go that that he paints these to uh express The reverse of what the trauma, you know wouldn't like, you know, I mean like there's so many ways it can come out It's it's awkward to um Describe any piece of artwork as soulless, but like it's not something that I've not done is it's uh Like you know, like a soka felt fucking soulless to me, but at the same time You uh, you hope you have a decent amount of context supporting it and I think it's difficult to describe paintings like this that way Um, but we'll see maybe by the end of the episode. We'll feel that way. Who knows Why oh why are the seemingly unremarkable paintings of cottages? One would usually see on the covers of jigsaw puzzles so viciously hated by some people In fact, not just hated but accused of being dishonest Damaging to art and culture itself. These are works by the late artist thomas kinkade You could make a very good case that thomas kinkade was the most successful artist in the 21st century so far His works can be seen on mugs t-shirts calendars and probably somewhere in your grandmother's living room thomas kinkade's own company claims his work can be seen in one out of every 20 american homes And at the height of his career his company generated 130 million dollars in sales in one year Now I can totally see how someone could dislike his work Perhaps they find it too excessive in its sentimentality or is garish or perhaps they find it simply generic But to capital h hate it. I admit I was initially a bit confused by that In fact people hate the art and the man so much that in articles about the man's death You can find such comments as these. I hate thomas kinkade with every fiber of my being I do like the the format because you want you look at all these uh picturesque Images like capturing christmas or a cozy village that's just like fucking.  Why? But that's nothing so much context to come Our long national nightmare is over.  You know the people responsible for electing george busch their opinions on that's what they meant by the george busch of art I guess it's fascinating like like this point in history um It's like a lot of these things are are fairly old even when I made the video like these comments and stuff It's like man People uh people have always been kind of tribalistic. Haven't they the more things change the more things stay the same Except like no one talks about george busch that much anymore. Now. It's all he's not cool to talk about anymore There's new guys the other guy. Yeah because his name like Trump drew him or something crying up Norman romp. Oh, what? Norman yeah, president norman On art are about as valid as a gibbons opinion on quantum physics Well, I was gonna say I don't know have you spoken to all the gibbons, you know, they're smart. So Yeah, I mean, you know I know this is the internet But if you could kindly remove your head from your own rectum, I think you'd be doing yourself a favor What could have possibly prompted such venom from a few cottage and I'm just curious about what snake that was That was an interesting looking snake. Hmm Oh I'm guessing you probably googled just snake Yeah, I downloaded off like dream's time or or something. Yeah, I googled cool snake Ain't it a neat design that the fangs like fold in And yeah, I'm glad you appreciate the snake because you know, usually I spend Decent amount of time making finding the right stock photos. Yeah Oh, yeah, it captured the essence very well What you'll find is that the reason for this hatred may have less to do with the art itself And more to do with matters of taste the art world and even as you saw in the last comment Politics today we'll learn about the many reasons to hate a thomas kinkade Maybe we'll hate him by the end. Who knows? Yeah Thomas kinkade was born into relative poverty in 1985 in california He had poor relics I just want to make it known. This is wrong. It's 1958 Uh, uh Because why yeah, he died that's he's he died right at some point Yeah, yes, he died, uh 2011 2010, uh, I mentioned yeah Because it seemed like that and it's like he doesn't look like he's 30 him those uh in those interviews Yeah, people I think he doesn't look like 30 in this image and like yeah, it's true.  It's ruining everything Uh, I pinned a comment to make sure no one gets confused. What happened is I just recorded the line I probably wrote it down in the script wrong recorded it edited it and it just Completely passed by I just did not catch it. Oh, it happens The worst is when you have all your friends proof it none of them catch it and then you're just like wow How can I rely on any of you ever again? This is you guys's fault not mine Yeah, he attended the university of california berkeley and art center college of design in pasadena Before college he was known for having a natural talent for drawing It was mentored by glenn wessels a former college professor of art who lived just He's just old rags as old people look like Looks like his eyes are on different like lines of latin states. He's old. He's just tilted the head rags Okay, old and tilt Wessels would eventually encourage him to transfer to the college of design in pasadena Also jmax said I think it was a bush viper fringy just uh A bush viper? Yeah, they come out of the bushes right Or alternatively it doesn't that don't look like an Australian one I'm guessing it's from elsewhere Who knows? I'm not sure what an Australian one is supposed to look like we do have green snakes here It's just that they're in rainforest typically. Well, they'll have the accent, right? That's how you tell Well, will they jump out of the bushes? G'day? I'm a viper nom nom nom Before his business adventures kincade worked in background painting for an animated film I just want to say the the man on the left james gurney This is fascinating because he's a very talented oil painter He has a youtube channel and he made a lot of kids books for uh, it's called dynotopia They're very very high quality oil paintings illustrations They're very neat. They're like steampunk dinosaur fantasy children's stories they're very Skilled I just thought that was connection was interesting because here he is with thomas kincade The hot world filled with connections. I imagine we use the simple technical procedure We just start out with a big wide brush and lay the thing in Very scrubby at first and then as we went we gradually Tighten the strokes down. We had to try to keep the time on each painting Very limited because there was a number of paintings to be done over a thousand for the film And traveled by your love processes like that where it starts out as goop and then it eventually becomes like you're like Oh, shit. That's like a whole wow. Okay. Nice. Good job. And then the The artist is like, yeah, uh, I wasn't even that hot like took five minutes Yeah, that's what you know what you're doing. It's pretty easy actually. So yeah I'm just stretching I freight train across the country sketching with james gurney when kincade was 20 He reportedly experienced a christian reawakening these newfound values seep their way into his art Which now focused on optimism natural beauty and inspirational settings Kincade was able to amass such profits from building up hundreds of thomas kincade signature galleries Which sprung up all over the country at their height and eventually spread internationally These signature galleries sold high quality digital reproductions where one could have the option of having a specially trained assistant Highlight the canvas textured reproduction one was about to purchase This highlighting consisted of the assistant adding small dots of color to give it detail and texture That was unique to that painting The stores themselves were also illuminated and decorated in a way totally opposite to the sterile white environments Usually sterile white environments. Boo. Well, I mean, you know, we know why they do that right is to isolate the art away from any other influences to give you its its Influence on you alone, right rather than the walls or the nature of the place having its effects I'm guessing that's part of the goal anyway. I guess it would be different for every gallery, right? Depending on what the people want. Yeah I think this is like this is a kind of a brilliant I don't know if he invented this kind of thing, but it's kind of a brilliant A business move to distance yourself from this kind of setting and Take your paintings that stores themselves like the paintings Yeah, fascinating It's um, well, that's the thing right because a lot of people would set up galleries this way because people set up galleries this way Instead of thinking about it, maybe Collaries creating a cozy and homely atmosphere Kincade excelled at building his brand throughout every aspect of the purchase Thomas Kincade was in the money-making business all his art appealed to the masses and straight away from any negative or even ambiguous themes He had successfully commercialized his art to an extreme extent And it worked. There are people who were and are passionate about these paintings Clearly many are willing to pay for reproductions and many collect them religiously the people who buy them are glad to have them They find comfort in them since 1994 Thomas Kincade's company media arts group has traded on the nasdaq And then on the new york stock exchange making kincade the only artist to be a small cap equity issue It is estimated his business brought in a hundred million dollars in revenue annually Thomas kincade was wildly successful and that's where the story ended. What a legend Wow, that's incredible. I'm so glad it's a happy ending. It's a huge amount of hard work All industry many satisfied customers And yet there were some meanies that were like, hey, I don't like your work.  This is this is comments in relation to uh kincade dying Just jealousy of his spectacular success and i'm sure that's a reason for some for others It certainly goes deeper than that when you go searching for what people think of his work You'll find a lot of negative reviews that use the word kitch. This word appears everywhere Kitch kitch king of kitch But what is kitch? My first big god that felt like classic video essay stuff right there where it came on the screen nice Yeah Ending of the word was something that's popular but also poor quality the oxford art dictionary attempts to define it as Objects or design considered to be in poor taste because of excessive garishness or sentimentality But that might be too narrow according to cultural critic and philosopher walter benjamin kitch is Unlike art a utilitarian object lacking all critical distance between object and observer It offers instantaneous emotional gratification without intellectual effort according to sir roger scruton kitch is fake art Expressing fake emotions whose purpose is to deceive the consumer into thinking he feels something deep and Good fucking god. I was like I wonder if this applies to I feel like there's a punching bag right now, but i'm sorry. It's one of the newest ones I'll switch to loki. I'm sure in a couple of weeks, but asoka just being like is fake art expressing fake emotions Whose purpose isn't to deceive the consumer into thinking he feels something deep and serious. It's like, oh my god So true Yeah, these quotes are very Fascinating to me, especially because uh, these two people are are kind of on the opposite sides of the political and philosophical spectrum They seem to like kind of overlap with this with this definition, which is uh It's um, it's probably not going to enter into my vocabulary even though it's kind of useful I just feel like when I say in kitch, um requires immediately after to explain what you mean That seems to be like a which is a useless word almost at that point Yeah, I my problem with it was it was too Exactly that just vague and like well, what do you mean exactly? It's just just just tell me what you think And then you say all of that and it's like, oh, I got you Serious I think it's quite a claim to say something expresses fake emotions But it might give a better idea of what kitch is even famous well established Contemporary artists have been accused of using kitch. My general understanding is art that is not challenging not complex Wow, look at this event crazy All these fellas hanging out all once Historic I would say Yeah, I mean they they really had to Edgel everybody to get everybody in the Yeah, well, this was all candid. They didn't even know they were being drawn. They were just hanging out. Yeah But ultimately the word is hard to oh my god Hey, if it gives you feelings if it makes you feel things, you know, that's hot. It's hot. It's just it's just a bit You know, yeah, that makes sense. Fine It's vagueness allows it to be applied to a wide range of stuff And for that reason I find it inadequate to fully describe why people and art critics would hate this kind of work Articles and reviews will also frequently use terms like garish overly sentimental and nauseatingly cheerful All understandable reasons for disliking something But even so how does that translate from just mediocre art to art being a national nightmare? Thomas Kincaid has been frequently compared to Norman Rockwell Mainly because of his appeal to American values and usually cheerful scenes Some have even put both their work into the same dreaded category of kitsch But I think a more fitting comparison is Bob Ross Both made serene art that appealed to large mainstream audiences Both mostly consisted of landscapes without people and both lives were even cut short at around the same age Now I love Bob Ross. I mean who doesn't squirrel, but I wouldn't really call his work Challenging in fact one can make the case that it is kitsch No, the significance of Bob Ross is not really his art But the hundreds of pbs videos he made painting that art Bob Ross was able to reach millions of people and inspire them to pursue oil painting through easy to follow a la prima techniques And the soothing earnest commentary that works both as a tutorial and as relaxing meditation as therapy For a lot of people I think there was an awareness of that that like you're here to be comfy and chill and just think about Pull out this squirrel here, I guess I guess this is interesting to think about because it's like It's you know, it's what a what did people get from Bob Ross? And it's like yeah, there were the paintings and the paintings look nice But it but the videos and and talking through the process and inspiring people to do art Was arguably the big thing that he did more so than than the the paintings themselves Oh, yeah, precisely. I mean he he's probably going to go down as one of uh One of the great artists of the 20th 21st 20th century because it's just It's beyond his paintings his influence Yeah, I mean it's it makes a lot of sense that uh, that's kind of how it goes the artists and the art both have this like Running reputation and they can be in tandem or support each other or bring each other down Or one could be great in the other but not so much like we have to talk a lot about the nature of appreciating art in spite of the artist Or appreciate the artist in spite of the art that does come up as well There's a lot of really nice and awesome people who make shit Which is you know, it just happens.  Um, this is like the people who changed the game I don't know. I have no clue who those people are going to be because now sometimes a lot of people Who are popular in history during that time Actually become obscure later on because their influence just isn't as big So yeah, well, they would have been a time There would have been a time where boogie would have been considered one of the most positive influential and blah blah youtubers, but Obviously if his reputation would be to summarize today There are still documentaries coming out about how horribly it's just like good god like like mr. Beast You know, he's like super popular right now, but it might be one more like I don't know Like uh, who's I don't know. Yeah, I don't know. That's the that's the thing, you know Well, yeah, um, this applies to artists in other industries as well It's also in chat mentioned kevin smith like if you take him from a particular decade, they're complete opposites Um, the reputation different like writers directors watched artists in general. It's a Sometimes this uh, you want to be bronze? Wow I'm trying to think of a time where his reputation was positive. I don't know He is uh, his fast food tweet is going down in history for sure. I it's well, that's that should be at a gallery that tweet Exactly. I wonder if that's a thing anywhere in the world.  So I I pursue So I don't know anything about this uh, this artist the the guy the the central point of the video. Um Oh No, no, no, no, no, I don't know. Uh, there's the other guy. Okay. Yeah. So like I don't really know So my first thought when it was like people hate him It's like oh is there something about the process that he Uses to make the art that is like something that people don't like Um, obviously we're only halfway. So if there's probably more to this got reveals to come I have a feeling when they when they showed all the images. I'm like, we've we got to be going like meta or something Um, yeah a little bit. I'm kind of interested because that term kitsch It's like, yeah, it's kind of a funny meme to say that Ahsoka is that but it's not a term that I think I'm ever going to use Yeah, uh, because I there's a I I don't know. I find it a little bit uh Potential to say it It's it's just uh because something that I find interesting is Because it was something that was baked into those definitions, right? It's like it's art that isn't challenging Um, which I find I find a little bit strange as a thing to get like incredibly angry about because Sometimes you just want to paint a beautiful landscape And the idea that there's something like less valuable about that Because it's not challenging because it's you know, nice happy trees in there and happy clouds in the sky You know what I mean? It's like all right calm down. Well, I guess not everything has to be some emotional struggle or I assume that's why you just enjoy a village Uh barb Ross has been brought up because he's not known for making challenging art that made everyone onto their existence And yet he's not hated. So it's like so what is the key? That's that's kind of my thinking is like I'm guessing that More to the story. Yeah, what that The other guy didn't have squirrels in his videos. So yeah if he had squirrels and birds He just pulled them out of his pocket there in a show. Yeah Yeah, it's funny that you mentioned that most You know most of these like Jackson Pollock people These modern artists contemporary artists, they usually start out with classical training or I at least for sure the ones in the 50s did they it would just paint raw regular subjects like a landscape or A group of figures are around Around a cart or something like that and and and have it be realistic and stuff So it when people say that oh Jackson Pollock couldn't draw. I mean he could he could draw it. Definitely. He had classical training He just showed us not to Yeah, he just he just chose not to this was the thing he wanted to pursue.  Yes Fleeves and tisms makes way more sense. Yeah, we love our flim ports. They uh They just so much, you know more clean. Everyone knows what you mean when you say fleam. Obviously, no one's confused The big thing is when I say fleam, it's it's almost like the officer to pretentious. It's kind of clownish Yeah, I guess. Yeah, maybe The word of the people the people who provide me like I love it Whatever Bob Ross is like put his paintbrush in the water. He's like beat the devil out of it, right? That's what he says Yes, great little phrases because uh It's just he's he's got a fascinating like life story wasn't the thing that he like basically taught himself to paint when he was uh On a military base up in Alaska And so that's kind of where a lot of the inspiration stems from for the kinds of landscapes he typically painted I don't know a lot about his backstory. Uh if I think he He was taught He had a teacher at some point who taught him specifically the a la prima technique Which is he's using as a wet on wet where you basically Ain't really fast without letting anything dry Um, but yeah, I think I I don't know. I can't like contradict what she said Well, a lot of people in China saying that yes, it was while he was on a like an Air Force base Um used painting to stay happy exact backstory Both Thomas Kincaid and Bob Ross sought to comfort their audiences through painting However, when it came to them as people Thomas Kincaid Was no Bob Ross Thomas Kincaid with serial murder he branded. Well, so the thing is I think if you're watching this video You might expect it could go that way Is he is did he paint with like the the tears of children is what's happening Himself as Thomas Kincaid the painter of light trademark. Look, even if you like his work Making everything glow is not something I would consider a remarkable use of light These guys are painters of light not Thomas Kincaid. He's also said things like God is my art agent and we have a grassroots movement emerging in my art and in the country And there's 10 million people out there that if I give the word will go out and pick it any museum I want them to that's not good He has some quotes Yeah, that that just feels like a villain line like Do they not know how they sound it's like no In one case he bet journalist Susan or lean a million dollars that a major museum would hold a Thomas Kincaid retrospective in his lifetime Thomas Kincaid was also not shy to talk about his Christian beliefs and conservative family values The prominent light so often seen in his paintings.  Oh inspiring like there, you know, you get all kinds of the reactions out there for everything What exactly are these ones? Is that Michael Moore or by seeing things that don't exist Michael more as well No, no, no the guy on the left in the hat. I was thinking Michael. Yeah as well Wait, what did you say? I was I asked that lady Oh, well, there are breasts, but um, I think I like I said I wasn't sure if that was Michael more. I'm not sure It's that that's what made me think. Oh, yeah I wish I had done more research on these images specifically because I I I basically just found, you know, this was a quick visual. I just found okay Here's some painting or some sculptures. It looks like just paper mache. Uh, yeah sculptures of they are striking you could say This if we walked into the gallery and you asked me for my comment on this I'd be like, uh I don't know I don't really know what I meant to make of it, but maybe I need the law. We need to read the law first and then we can know In one interview he said the number one quote critics give me is tom. Your work is irrelevant Now that's a fascinating fascinating comment. Yes irrelevant to the little subculture this microculture of modern art But here's the point my art is relevant because it's relevant to 10 million people That makes me the most relevant 10 million number from emails Here's gets a lot of emails where you figured it out Are they like subscribers to his vehicle something that they get? It was just a common like statistic He figured out from his business because they estimated like one in 20 american homes I don't know how true that is but like I could believe it because it sounds good went to my grandmother's house and was like Oh, there's Thomas can you pay it on the calendar? I'm like, okay. Well Yeah, it'll be on the calendar or it'll be a puzzle Well, because people are saying sales but like it's a little bit more complicated than just what you've sold because obviously it's He could be lying. He could be outright lying. Um, but I mean, it's probably probably more than a million definitely Well, yeah, and because I thought maybe he might have set up something like, um He gives out work every so often to anybody who's uh Asking or like like you'd have like I was trying to think it's not quite the same as it would be these days, but You know like if if people were paying for some kind of service We receive a new kinkaid every month or half year or something kade. Yeah monthly. Yeah the monthly something like that Oh a kinkaid box Well, because the thing is everyone's already put it out But you could totally see his works being a little cards or postcard sort of things You don't be like, oh look that's nice it comes in the frame if you pay more Something you can put on the desk and be like Love it Sure, not the least because I'm relevant to real people Thomas kinkaid also allegedly frequently engaged in shady business practice sexual debauchery such as defrauding authorized kinkaid dealers And exploiting their christianity to get them into the kinkaid business by dressing it up as a religious Opportunity all the while getting them to take on unreasonable amounts of kinkaid's work at fixed prices Many gallery owners claimed kinkaid had ruined them financially in the name of god kinkaid dismissed these acutals well that makes it okay accusations while also settling some of them kinkaid was also an alcoholic and as his businesses began to decline He engaged more frequently in drunken episodes where he was prone to cursing heckling performers When I think Bob Ross had drunken episodes Didn't he do we just not know about them? I don't know actually did he oh no To my knowledge. No Okay, I mean I I I would believe it maybe maybe maybe maybe he was just a chill drunk and you would just stop paying again Yeah, maybe poo statue while yelling this one's for you walt, which I don't even think that one's bad That's hilarious Context missed roll back Where he was prone to cursing heckling performers one accusation of groping urinating on a winnie the pooh statue Oh, no, this one's for you walt. No, it's winnie the poo not winnie the pee This one's for you walt I just want to know what he was ahead of his time. I want to know what walt would think about He'd be so confused Well, it's like but I love thomas kinkade Which I don't even think that one's bad. That's hilarious drunk driving, which is less hilarious And eventually on april 6 2012 he was killed by an accidental overdose of valium and alcohol Uh-oh, don't make sure valium and alcohol. No pills and Booze that's what can get you a legal battle. They're obviously like he was killed when his pain exploded or something like that Like a freak accident that had nothing to do with anything like his brushes nothing to do with anything The state between his estranged wife and girlfriend took place all prompted from these drunken barely comprehensible wills I can clearly understand the 16 3 24 In there um I can see art this statement Is null and void if my relationship No, I don't know what that is Being of sound mind and body I hear by the queef to gay pinto Walsh 100 Bro, that's how gay pinto walsh got his fortune gay pinto walsh got one or got 10 million in cash For many cargo Polly could I give And I give her the house at 15 And 1634 z rest rest current And avenue for her security November 18th or 19th 2011 just crazy for anybody who doesn't know gay pinto walsh you probably know the monica Old gpw. You know gp dubs. Yeah One of the most famous artists in history who never made any art. That's the big meme about gay pinto walsh This is where all the money came from. I'm just glad we've solved that mystery We've been asking that for a while on this show a purveyor of art is basically an artist.   Yeah, don't mix them Eventually both parties settled out of court these events are made even more ironic Just by going on to youtube and watching some of the painting demonstration videos He made before his death the ones where he actually explains his techniques are fine and decently informative But on others the man can't do two minutes of actual painting without cutting it off and giving a speech about how god Inspired him and how we should all be looking toward the light or something Religious beliefs aside. Are you trying to give an informative peek into your process? Or are you just going to jesus's part of the process considering jesus is his process It's it's the old artist song jesus take the brush Jesus take the wheel is always such a funny You know, it's just like it's such terrible advice.  Oh god. I got this Oh god, you do the pedals all steer The song doesn't say anything about pedals How interested he was in maintaining his positive image and christian values My guess is the latter if you're still wondering how people could hate a thomas concade artwork for political reasons Well, it's because the artist himself politicized them. He fueled the rift between the art world and people So are we what I think okay I think it's impossible to not see him as somebody who did a lot to inflame culture wars and to make a lot of Money articulate into people that they were on the outside that people were looking down on them and that the art world was laughing at them Interesting Inside of it and to be fair it seems some of the art world fueled this conflict as well And oh boy, you don't need gas on that. It's doing fine Hmm The the the fire. Oh, yeah, you didn't need to do that that guy. Yeah, it was clearly already quite voluminously inflamed If there is no need to awkwardly sprinkle gasoline Slightly more voluminous flame need to be more Well, perhaps that's why the imagery is perfect for the point of the video Which is that fires were burning and then people would toss on a bit more a bit more petrol Get more gas Objectively speaking you are gorgeous Facts do not care about your feelings That's how he could woo a woman Position get political. That's how you can get articles like thomas can't Yeah, this The george w bushevans Yeah, wait dude. Yeah, george w paid himself, right? He does. I thought he did This was I think this was made before I get into this but he yeah Yeah This this really does feel like a blossom when's the last time you heard somebody just say like, oh, yeah, man Remember like george w bushe just feels like an old era, doesn't it uh, which it is I guess relatively Well, yeah, it says 2012 so this was a different era, but it's just like man Who's the last time you had someone mention george w Would you like to see one of george w bush's paintings? We yeah, we do I think oh all we do it. All right. I won't spoil the surprise Yes, yes, he yeah Okay, I didn't know that George w bush of art their reasoning can cade like bush I think it was my favorite but simplified image of the world and that's the same bad. That's not even Like a like a landscape or uh, I mean most any what any art that doesn't depict horrific Suffering he's not accurate to the real world. That's not accurate to the real world. You just rose tinted. Whatever's Which is funny if someone says like lord of the rings doesn't represent the real world It's like you could go to the shire new zealand. So it's true. That's where you could go It's real. Damn it. Don't tell me different That made people invest in fraudulent galleries also elected george bush and sent their children off to die It is absolutely insane Okay Or there's even another article titled is george bush a better painter than thomas kinkade Which argues that george w bush's recent painting escapades are more interesting than kinkade's work because they are more inventive and Emotionally, it looks like uh, oh that guy in the right. He looks like a gustoe. He looks I was Oh, I can see that He does look like hey, man, maybe george w is a big fan of ratatouille. I can see that Who was he supposed to be though? Not sure. He's a big fan of ratatouille except you Yeah, so I don't know why People were like In articles. I read they were like praising george w bush's art I guess because Uh, okay, um, I mean the if someone would you know, like if he was like learning how to do it There'd be plenty of criticism to live it, but I guess people are gunning for the aspect of just look at the expression like Yeah, I guess that's what they'd be going for It's definitely like there's a lot of like amateur stuff, but I guess it's like better than Of person who just just started, you know that there's certainly merit in There's some volume stuff like the putin one. I think is a lot worse than the Other will say it. Yeah, like the one on the right. I don't know Yes I think the chef kusto is a lot better writing history here. I need a lot Yeah, because a much better grasp of like form Much to learn george w still has but it's you know, I if I saw my kid come up with these I'd be like, oh, these are great Look at that. Oh, yeah, like if my if my child made these I'd be like, yo, these are great You should like seriously pursue it.  That is those who are too intellectually flabby to spot Okay Calm down You don't like the fact that the guy's into jesus a lot. You know, like if you Ever we're just sitting on the old couch and you're watching like bluey and it's just like don't steal from people If so was like, why aren't you watching? Fucking, you know, the the newest What was it the one in the sims worker in parasite?  I'm just I'm fine. I could I could check out some stuff that's chill and fun and and safe and cozy sometimes That doesn't mean I don't also check out existential terror, you know, here and there like in between my bluey episodes the difference between You know, uh gay pentale lot of walsh was not uh intellectually flabby. They were more uh intellectually stiff, I think You could say that. Yeah, uh, yeah Obviously, we we do praise a lot of gay's work, but he he came under a lot of fire in the 90s specifically I don't need to go over all of those events, but Yeah, the column by narrow was pretty a lot of stiff works.  That's the same Yeah, the real and a charlatans flattened approximation of it Yes, to some hating a thomas kinkade painting has political dimensions to it But I think a slightly more charitable explanation that is less political and more merit-based comes from the art critic jerry saltz The reason the art world doesn't love kinkade isn't that it hates love life goodness or god We may be silly or soulless or whatever But we don't automatically hate things with faith and love or that other people love The reason the art world doesn't respond to this person hasn't been to the internet yet Yeah, there are plenty of people who You go anyone you could imagine they're out there and they're like, uh, this is a happy happiness Oh, this is somewhat wholesome or oh a man and a woman with a child Ugh What is this conservative? I could see Like a friendly little flower in a field Or I could totally see someone being like where's the blood? Why haven't you why where's the realism? Poppies kinkade is because none not one of his ideas about subject matter surface color composition touch scale form Or skill is remotely original This might be the most succinct and clear explanation of an aspect of why some people hate his art It was something I suspected from the beginning But it was just never actually written down clearly until this man finally gave a beautifully specific reason Now I agree in fact that they are unoriginal in those aspects But and I know this is like a Oh, why did we pause on Edna mode? I whenever whenever someone pauses. I'm like, yes. What did you was there something? Yeah, uh Hold on hear me. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Okay I don't know if I completely agree with that because Is now like I'm thinking after I'm like, okay unoriginal, but I can recognize that Thomas kinkade So even if it's not like super unique, there's some sort of style there that he made That I can differentiate differentiate from other people and that's original in a sense now um, I was I was trying to think of what I think about those words being used Uh, sort of like the ruling out his work as being able to be described that way And I was like, how would I apply it if I thought those did apply and it's like Does it mean just his his works are like always remixes of his works? None of them ever come across as Um, strictly new Like, oh wow, he did that. It's more irritable Yeah, it's more like he's a reliable artist that provides you a thing We are like, that's his stuff and I like it and that's fine Uh, I guess that's because something I will say is the more that the pitch has been coming up the more I've been getting bored by them Um, but oh, yeah, absolutely. There's Yeah, I can't put it into words A similar thing over and over and over again, even though there are obviously differences between them It's just starting to get a little bit boring seeing them Some of them I like way more than others, but all of them have I think it's like that they share this texture Um, yeah, they they share this um, like it's all the same pieces rearranged in a way um It's really tough to say because it's good art. I I like it. It's pleasant. I can imagine living in my little Cottage by the lighthouse um, but I'm like I but there's something almost um Matrixy about it Like it there is something that's a little bit strange about it It's like because when you show the first the first painting is like, oh, okay It's like a cottage in the woods Okay, and then you see like another cottage in the woods Maybe a thousand foreign and and then they're all very bright as well. Um, yeah That's the going on the more it's starting to be like, hmm. Okay compared to you know I guess when you compare it to like the great artist throughout history right where there's a more variety more dimensions more Yeah, it's just there's differences. These all feel very similar and it's starting to get a little bit boring It's um, it's surprisingly striking beautiful and we're ready to be praised in and among a bunch of other artists other works If you saw one of these just like alongside a bunch of the stuff you're like, oh, wow but you still probably Do the thing which everyone does which is like that looks just like it would be on a christmas card That looks just like it would be on uh, uh When you look at these you don't think of these as paintings you think of them as Christmas cards and puzzles That There's a level of genericness um That kind of comes from which is kind of fascinating to me almost Have they been made generic and it's like it's not even the fault of the art A nice way of putting it you could say is cozy uh and reliable of But kind of it's That's almost kind of the selling based on like I said, I really don't know about this guy Like this is basically the first time I've heard of him though. I'm guessing that I probably have seen one of these paintings before on a jigsaw Absolutely People in chat now referencing ai and like algorithmically like it comes across that way and it's like I think that's where the art world was taking issue with him Was that it comes across as though you see these thousands of paintings in a row You're like you come across as an algorithm that you you're creating these you're not They're not like expressions of passion in um Fast angry or sad or happy. It's it's mostly like you know what you're doing. You do it You do it well and it's done Which then you combo that up with the business model as well And and how successful that business model was Uh, seemingly it's just I guess what what I mean that I don't I don't know much about the business practices But that it made a lot of money basically and that a lot of people bought the painting This is why um, I know it's like hmm. I feel like our episode 251 was kind of about this like we wanted I believe there should be a balance not like a You know on one side of the people who appreciate the craft in and of uh, you know Lighting composition skill like all of these particular things divorced entirely from The expression from the artist and then the other side is like no the expression from the artist is all that matters You could have literally a You know a fucking a piece of shit on the floor It's just like if I can just read the book that relates to it and find out what it means That's that's what makes true art sort of thing Like why couldn't why won't have it be both that we want to have artists that express themselves and their experiences and their lives through artworks that uh channeled into like crafts that require skill that create like incredible imagery um, and that each of these things can change the amount you judge the artwork for what it is and stuff instead of like It's like drawing this weird line where this is either Incredible or terrible depending on which of those two you you opt for uh, um, yeah, you guys might have a Just to give you some more information. I suppose Yeah, he he basically he has this sort of factory like process um, certainly Um, and even even his paintings like they're technically skilled, but there's like there's like things you can pick a part about them Uh, like some people pointed these things out to me like sometimes the perspective of the houses Isn't exactly uh, completely correct or you know, the lighting doesn't make sense um, and like those things Yeah, those things like you know, if you're looking at it from like a technical Realism like perspective and it's like, okay. I could see why you could find that annoying and stuff I mean like they're clearly not trying to be realistic Um, but they're still like fanciful fairy taley type But there's still like like errors and like reflections that even then wouldn't really make sense However, you know, I got to give him a little bit of credit In doing research for this video. I saw like kinkade copycats and Oh boy, there are some really bad Like really really sloppy versions. Obviously don't have as much skill So like I kind of appreciate that he's you know Trained as well even if and if there are small mistakes The uh, he's really not the worst Technically skilled wise another really awkward aspect to it would be let's take this one for example If someone said like what I hate about his work is that it's all soulless or kitsch as they were using earlier There's nothing to this. He paints it almost automatically. He knows exactly what he's doing He's just trying to make money no no expression in there But then what if there's like a full you know 10 hour video of him making this where he talks extensively about It's like family history and that all of this is supposed to inform it that like this wonderful beautiful thing that's perched on the edge of a The coming waters that are going to engulf it or at least that was his like perspective It like if that were true would that then Make this more of a piece of art, which is why I find the whole lore argument a bit It struggled with me sometimes just like so the it doesn't the image wasn't even relevant at that point It was like just whether or not he felt things when he made it Which we can never necessarily know Or not always necessarily know because as we've talked about in that episode It's like what if the artist is fucking dead and there was no record of what he felt when he made the thing now what? That they are unoriginal in those aspects But and I know this is like a cardinal sin according to art critics I don't hate kinkades art. There's some paintings. I like some I wouldn't mind having a printout. Oh, that's nice That's why you I find excessive. Yeah, that one feels a bit busy um It's yeah, it's like um It's almost like a wears Waldo Yeah, sure But like what it's busy. This is what you have to appreciate and if you don't then like the image is sort of like it's lost Um, yes, like all the little people doing their stuff I guess the logic to for this one or like these kinds of paintings is that you'd have these in your home You can spend a lot of time looking at all the little details Because you're like just sitting. Yeah, just imagine yourself being here much for me. It's too much for me Yeah, I like it, but it is a bit There's a lot going on. Yeah Oh that one That one's a bit strange The light the lightning bird and the top left coming out of nowhere to be like Yeah I think this is actually not I think this was actually made after his death. So it's like this little fact. Yeah, why is that Bambi there? Oh, he has a deal with disney Oh That explains why he did get in trouble for pissing on Winnie the Pooh then. Yeah. Yeah. He had this I should have mentioned that actually to give more context Could be as funny maybe Winnie the Pooh is more uh, uh, what's the name of the guy who actually made Winnie the Pooh? Uh, Gabe into Walsh? I find downright horrendous But I don't hate Everything he has ever painted people often insult Kinkade's work by calling them greeting card illustrations. I like that though. That's good. Well greeting cards need illustrations They do and and they have As if we've never picked up a greeting card of God Huh, I looked at it for a bit and been like look at that. Look at all the there. Yeah But I guess the interesting thing is that part of what's been in this video is um Like for instance, if you saw like a grandma who had one of these paintings up on the wall And she's just like oh, it just makes me feel cozy. It makes me feel like you know at the home or whatever And that's why they bought one of these paintings.  If you know what I mean, there's there's enough different Yeah, they're not the same. Um, there's similarities that sort of pervade them. I think Because I assume um Solar sounds you you picked a lot of these to illustrate particular points you're making at the time But you probably could have collected like 20 in a row the almost indistinguishable in terms of just composition And like the goals he had I I tried this is a me trying to like steal man him basically I didn't want to just pick the same Painting because he he does have different paintings Yeah, that that one of the uh That one that was up before that you said that corresponded with you saying you liked it with all of the The path with the autumn trees around it That was a lot more different to a lot of the ones that have been shown up in the video. Yeah Yeah, I think that's him being a lot more Yeah, well, yeah, you almost want to be like hey concave Try something else. I just want to see what else you could do because obviously you can like you can capture imagery like so Why not draw one that doesn't have a cottage or mountains? You know, just give it a shot.  There's uh, there's paintings. There's all kinds of like parodies. There's this one that has a star destroyer looming in the background I would love there to be a star destroyer Yeah, just there's some you could I let me I can look it up and That almost seems like something would be worthwhile to do is like you can do your painting But there's like this one element that you have to incorporate into it that is like really really really out of left I need you to make five nights in freddy's paintings. Hey, man That kind of could be interesting, you know, what does king cade's take on five nights of freddy's do what he's got Awesome five nights of freddy's.  You aren't going to find academic history paintings or basket art on get well soon cards That would be tonally incongruous. I guess there's people out there that would find that reassuring, but Just yes, that would be weird if that picture was on get well soon. I'd be like, okay I always think that'd be like that's kind of that's kind of funny So let the steam and get you know Cottage if the man had just accepted that his art wasn't going to be seen Yeah Pure out your little bads of full cottage like oh geez Oh god Oh, there's the empire again There's the empire just in time for christmas And high-class museums may be the kind of vicious hatred for his art from the art world still seen today Would be reduced. I think people can be overly critical of his art, but the man also fueled that conflict What is thomas kinkade's legacy can a man be defined by his worst attributes? Was he really just a hack that used religion and falsely soothing images to swindle people out of their money? Or was he a flawed businessman of faith that produced art that may not be wholly original? But tried to instill some sort of simple beauty in an ugly world who in moments of weakness succumbed to his worst tendencies I can't really give you a good answer, but kinkade will certainly not be the last of his kind John mcnaughton has been described as the thomas kinkade of christian nationalism His paintings are some of the most overtly political and excessive oil I don't know what that means though Look at trump Through the snake as well Through the snake in the snake He stepped on the snake He stepped on the snake in my boot Oh no, he stepped on the snake Oh, he stepped on it Yeah No, don't snap on snack Unless snack was dangerous Of all times Paintings out some of them Yeah And like kinkade Yo, look at him Jesus is like, what's up? Yo, what's up soldiers? I wouldn't say they are Woo, we sure do love watching donald trope drive by Yeah, I hear all They're not taking any skillful But he's probably a better painter than most people Now whether you agree or disagree politically We have to admit that these paintings are a bit much As in they are extremely dramatic And far from subtle in their Who's the guy crying there? Who's that meant to be?  The Ronald Mcdonald He's painting KFCs The one with Putin as well But I think that has a value on its own I also find this quote from McNaughton Quite fascinating I'm just honestly a little perplexed I have no idea where buyers are in Yeah I just know I sell a ton Sometimes I'm shocked at how many I sell That one I told you about What is it? I'm gonna play the film While the guy has a gaffer I'm gonna put the girl in the fire Jesus Oh Bamba I don't remember your door dad But I bring this document When I drone strike that guy So that one I told you about Obama burning the Constitution When I painted it I worried This thing is just hideous Why would anybody hang that in their living room? It's not he says The kind of warm happy work Imagine seeing that I wonder what your opinions are I could just now imagine this Like step into my humble abode And it's just filled with these pennies Wall to wall You can barely even see the walls You're like what do you want to talk about? You're like I feel like I know you This is kind of interesting isn't it? Because obviously the comparison is being brought to the other guy And it's like This is kind of interesting Because it's similar or different Because it's like fighting out there This isn't like warm and happy necessarily Some of these are incredibly critical Which is like It's kind of different to just the cottage in the forest With all of the light beaming over it You know Yeah and the criticism would likely be Like there's no subtext It's all just over Well I mean compared to the other comics By that other dude right To have all the text on there It's like I guess they're a little bit more subtle than that Yes Yeah So almost like you have so much text on this picture Why did it need to be a picture? Yeah Just Make a little poster People typically want in their homes This is where McNaughton and Kincaid diverge McNaughton does not seem to be as interested in making money And that I find it fascinating that He's like why are people buying these These are insane He has like self-awareness And he just keeps making them and they keep selling Yeah he just keeps going I guess At least appears to have some self-awareness That his work will likely not be accepted as high art However McNaughton may be a sign of something greater Maybe Kincaid will eventually win his museum bet But not in his lifetime In some bizarre twist of fate Museums of the future may display his work In the context of the beginning Of a movement of populist conservative art They may be seen as not aesthetically or emotionally significant But historically significant And who knows maybe the tides of the art world will change And Thomas Kincaid's work will be seen in a new respectable light I have my doubts But art critics have been wrong before Unlike others apparently I cannot bring myself to feel joy in this man's death The life of Thomas Kincaid Well I just I find that I always find it weird It's rare that the death of someone is like a joyous occasion Even if you really don't like it just like It's just uh I mean his uh What was it cultural nightmare Who was considered by a lot of people A long national nightmare is over Is a life of tragedy The man had talent and dishonest or not Attempted to bring some sort of positivity into the world But was stunted by greed and mass appeal It seems he wanted to be loved by everyone And when he wasn't he turned hostile He preached about family values in god And yet endangered others Was killed prematurely by the hand of his own addiction And left his family fighting for his legacy Because of his failed relationships His brand was one of optimism Faith and comfort His paintings were serene Peaceful perfect scenes without pain or suffering Ironically his life was anything but Behind the artificiality of these idyllic scenes Is the all too real reality of human folly I wonder if there are any paintings We might be able to detect something like that And that'll be the thing I probably want to talk to him about If there was anything I could talk to him about Do you ever feel an interest in expressing tragedy in your works?  Like what would be the point of that? And I'd be like oh interesting I guess No, I really think I mean I don't know if his name is that big But I think it'd be fascinating If someone made like a dramatized movie of him Because he kind of, he almost had a rock star lifestyle For a little bit there You could like explore all the little angles Of how this happened You could do the secret works of Kincaid And it's like he actually for every nice and positive one He drew like a really tragic role one That he kept in a vault Though he put in the basement, yeah And like Nicholas Cage has got to go find them It'd be pretty good I think Like the Declaration of Independence I have to steal the lost Kincaids I have to steal the Obama burning the Declaration of Independence Depend on whatever the fuck constitution It's just, it is plenty of potential for movies here We gotta, we gotta get them all Full series Must be explorers That was a good video by the way That was interesting Yeah, I like a video I was gonna, I didn't know if it was One of the better ones you've had on eFap Oh there you go Yeah we often, we don't, we don't often cover What we would consider good videos So that was neat That was different, thank you very much And I feel informed upon the subject Thought I got the eFap approval Yeah, I mean Yeah It's a rarity But good stuff, yeah What a precious camp And I feel like you were pretty fair Which can be difficult these days Because there's very strong opinions That you already laid out for Certainly this topic And then when it comes to art too Right, like trying to be like Okay, this image evokes X And then someone's like No it doesn't You're like okay Okay, so to get the story clear So there was this video and then And then Charlie watched it Yeah Watched this video And then Matt prompted He shall modern artists because of that And then Ethaners Online saw it and said How is it Charlie that you're saying things That have been said in Prager U videos Oh yeah, yeah, that's right And it was like what Yeah, now it's time to come back And remember we were what The Prager U videos, the clips we saw They weren't that bad They were just like Prager could be insane But like, they were fine Yeah a lot of stuff The ones about art The artist guy Yeah I'm trying to remember He still said some weird shit He did Yeah, he said some things about you A lot of normal stuff And then there was one guy who was more of a mixed bag But like I've seen craziest stuff from Prager U Than that, that's like Oh yeah Yeah, it's relatively mundane Yeah, the artist that Ethaners Online was shitting on And that was the spokesperson for Prager U Yeah You know the one with the super detailed figures Yeah That's crazy I can't believe this is like That was like the first time I saw it Oh yeah, yeah, yeah Because he was like gutting from He was like an actual artist He was like a maxed out parish kind of He said like if you try to have a drawing Something that isn't a person or a tree Or something that I can't remember And he was like, wow, way to summarize these images Like this has been cool, I guess What did he say? He was just shitting all over the house He's on Prager U I have to hate his art Because he's Prager U guy Instead of being like I don't agree with many of his political opinions But the man can draw Yes, he could But yeah, good stuff Oh That context is complete We've done the whole drawing Or you believe this video started The entire like Charlie Or your guys' reaction to it The big long trail Yeah, exactly And yeah, like I said They think there's room For Ethan online to make his response And to try and like, you know Provide the alternative point of view But like that video sucked ass I'd say it's one of the worst that we've covered I always hesitate to say that I know, but I still think it's one of the worst I don't know, that wisecrack one on the trolley problem was pretty bad Pretty awful Like all the right advice ones we cover are insanely bad as well I don't know which one's like I think my favorite eFap is the one Where you cover the guy who shits on Lord of the Rings Oh yeah, that's my favorite He has since made a new Lord of the Rings review I've been made aware of I believe inspired at least partially To want to make a new video based on Us reacting to the old one As far as I know, he's still very much on board and happy And fine and chill with the With our reaction because Obviously we're fans of Lord of the Rings But yeah, it's 93 93 is often referenced as the favorite episode But it's between that one The Synthetic Man one And the Rise of Skywalker one I think those are the fan top picks The 93 is still fucking funny And like all the bizarre editing And the fucking Nostalgia Critic references And Harry, like bringing up Harry Potter Oh man, I love it Oh, okay, I forgot he kept comparing to Harry Potter It feels so weird 93 We're on 254 I like how Come such a long way So many pieces of media covered Wonderful pieces of media, by the way I would never want to undermine that, of course Such great and epic adventures Including not limited to, by the way For people who don't know We've been covering Soar this month It's that's been a whole journey Which is funny because it's a journey that we did a year ago But for you guys it's right now That's exciting Yeah We're also covering newer things this year for Halloween But you won't know about that until next year That's right Yeah, silly little Next year you'll learn what we're watching this year They're actually the next one is going to be Soar 6 You know, they just had five So it's going to be like, ah, that'll be the one Oh, that's a little, yeah I've seen some comments saying people looking forward To seeing what we think about Soar 6 Soar 6 Well, I guess they'll find out in How many days for your little fucked up X When is the next one come out? Oh, uh, that would be Wednesday, I think It was a bit of a gap now I say that as if You get, you, you EFAP fans Have you, have you been noticing lately You've been getting all of the stuff All that Ahsoka juice came right out Oh, yeah Fucking Ahsoka bro Ahsoka It's actually super annoying to me Because I watched The Clone Wars When I was like a kid And like The Clone Wars isn't very well written But man You know, Ahsoka used to be an actual character He actually had like a personality And in this one she's just like a Just a fucking Bank of wood She doesn't do anything She used to be like Sometimes she smirks Or much more energetic Sometimes she crosses her arms The smirking and crossing the arms is like That's personality That's, that's barely any It's like a Shadow of what, what she was I don't know why Dave Filoni just Made her like this A poxious monk It was crazy as well because It is kind of weird That was getting shared Excessively the fact that she folded her arms And I was just like Man, I guess that really does work Like It'll make you fill in the blanks I guess Which that quote about Kitch Had that near the end That it's like it'll have people believe What they're seeing is a hell of a lot deeper Than it actually is There's so little to draw out of it I don't know if you guys saw it But that's tween about excess or disbrew Tween about it That IGN did a review Stem I recently In summary of Ahsoka Saying it is a season filled with basically nothing But extended scenes of like pauses That add nothing or jangling keys To sort of keep you going It's just like oh my god In a while Even IGN Yeah even IGN I guess the Disney check didn't clear It does feel weird To see like big publications Repeat in talking points that we've been Like running with for years Like holy shit They're catching up I never thought they would To be honest with you The And I say they're talking points that like Around all of us fears for a long time We've definitely been pushing the jangling keys Things since at least Mando season two finale But I want to say earlier than that Because it was all of Mando season two in general right Like that was the key jangling season They had Obviously Bo Katan Boba Fett Luke Yeah Luke would be a big one Ahsoka was a key jangle in that season And now she's a In that in that crazy It's like oh I love to see her I'll just say she is Oh man she had her own show And then it's just nothing It's absolutely nothing I don't get it because She used to actually be like Like clever too And like curious about things I'm going off my memory I watched it I watched the entire show for The video I made on my channel With this she's just Nothing Completely nothing I don't understand how anyone is really happy with this Even the Clone Wars fans Also um I was actually going to suggest since uh We are only We are only An hour and 44 minutes in Uh would you guys want to check out that IGN review It's in video form Oh yeah let's give it a go Really? Holy shit I'm curious yeah It is totally The IGN just you know Passes out the sevens and Above for all the corporate sponsors Yeah because the video is called The Ahsoka season finale Reminds us what's wrong with Star Wars For sure Oh That's One thing One other thing I want to mention is that I think Dave Filoni has always had this Problem with making the bad guys Stupid and incompetent You could say that about his heroes as well And is here about it making everybody an idiot But especially the villains Well one thing I saw Just really quick One thing I saw about a video Assessing Ahsoka versus the Clone Wars Versus like Rebels and stuff Is that a lot of people Are not as aware as they should be Of just how much Filoni did In terms of his writing versus show running And that we should be careful to assume That almost all the best writing decisions In Clone Wars and Rebels Whatever they may be That they get given to him Like credited to him Meanwhile Of course Ahsoka We know Written and in some cases directed by him Like this was his baby sort of thing And that this should be probably the best representation Especially being it's brand new Of his abilities as an artist And I was like that's probably true Current ability certainly I did not know that I had no clue I thought Filoni was heavily involved in Clone Wars But then I saw someone lay it out And I was like oh shit is writing credits for them I think it's only like the newest season or something It was the lighter that it went on the more credits he got Like the lighter the longer the show went on And I don't want to undermine his contributions For all I know he's responsible for some of the like best payoffs in the show As far as I'm aware like I said I haven't seen it And I haven't checked all the credits But I remember just watching a video that was like Be careful to credit a lot of different things to him Because you need to check Who actually did the stuff Because a lot of people don't get credited where they should Um Which is fair Yeah so I mean I mean it just I don't know It just seems like Ahsoka Like the bad parts of Ahsoka are like a spiritual successor To the bad parts of Clone Wars Because in Clone Wars you frequently have these scenes Where like a Jedi would be facing like 80s battle droids And the battle droids would just run up shooting their lasers And the gen like Anakin or something would just mow them all down I'm like right I was exciting So yeah it's just weird All right are you guys ready Yeah I'm excited one of us isn't in the room apparently It's so the sands wow betrayal I forgot I'm left I'm not in the left Oh I got it But you have to make a new link every time No it's the same way Same one you Okay Spoiler alert All right everybody in chat If you were looking It's hard to be spoiled I know you've been watching Ahsoka You haven't finished it yet You've got to get out of here now You're about to have it spoiled Oh god this but This is when you have a friend who hasn't seen Ahsoka And they're like please please don't spoil it You're like oh god because yeah You'd miss Just imagine There's two things that happen I don't even What would be the genuine spoilers Anakin shows up Both things that happen As it goes For the finale of Ahsoka Or the whole season do you mean Just the whole well at that point you could argue it's the whole season But yes what would be the whole seasons What what are the If you wanted to spoil Ahsoka as a show to someone But who hasn't seen it How would you do it And hopefully I could get out of the fastest way possible I think you can use the force That'd probably be the big spoiler right Thrown his back in the Star Wars universe So being can use the force Anakin shows up as a force ghost That's probably it That's right That's those are the main ones Maybe maybe ah Ezra He's he got saved You know So funny because like it starts to get a little like Dude do I even bother mentioning this is like Yes Ahsoka is not in the regular galaxy now But as you highlighted when we watched this Like that will ultimately be highly beneficial for her By the time we I like how if you said that to someone She's not in the regular galaxy now They'd be like what the fuck are you talking about Yeah Well it's just it's weird as a talking point You're like okay And what does that mean What what the the thing that I find interesting Is if the show doesn't get a second season Which let's be real That's entirely possible Like the viewership was not amazing Yeah Um The show was probably pretty expensive If they don't do a second season of Ahsoka Then that means that all of the plot points that I imagine That they're setting up their may go unresolved and I don't know that seems like that might be a good thing Given that they're delving into like all the mortis stuff Yes Like oh yeah you know what maybe we We we've talked about this before Chat might remember that conversations about The idea of accepting certain aspects of Star Wars Is canon or not For me Ahsoka is like a really easy one to essentially Like Let's put it this way When I'm watching Empire and Lucas fighting Darth Vader There is no part of my mind that's thinking Yeah and also there's Ahsoka who will at some point in this world Go to an interdimensional plane that connects like timelines And then go to another galaxy by riding in the mouth of a Star Whale To go fight like a bunch of night sisters and zombie stormtroopers That that's just not There's no there's no role with that in my mind Is a thing that actually occurred in this universe Oh no, hell no, no, no, no, no I'm I'm so worried that our wars if it keeps going like this We'll start doing multiverse shit I think we've heard that's the room of this plan With that stupid will between worlds I mean that might be their vehicle to get Anakin Especially if Hayden Christiansen's like yeah, I mean, you know, I could work Like I could If Anakin didn't become Darth Vader, ooh And then they bring him in so that he can actually be Part of the story more long term possibly I mean the thing that I The fact that the fact that the grand plan for throne Is to create an army of zombie stormtroopers Like that's great When I think about that, I kind of wonder it's like Do they know what they're doing? You know, do that actually Is this meant to be like an allegory of some kind For like the shambling corpse that is Star Wars You know, just getting brought back and dead But then again, it's like it might just be that Dave was like No man, like zombie stormtroopers is cool Like that there is no commentary at all That's where the thought begins and terminates Yeah, there was no commentary on the state of Star Wars That like this is the only way that it can be imagined to continue Is by just like reviving the dead And then having them shamble around You know, but no, I think it's just they want zombie stormtroopers He really reminds me of Zack Snyder The way that I've described it is like If you imagine like Dave Filoni is like He's like a 12-13 year old ideas of storytelling And Zack Snyder is more like a 15 or 16 year old That's kind of the way that I imagine it Snyder is a bit more edgy He thinks he's a bit more profound in terms of like the kinds of stories He's telling where as to me Dave definitely feels like Throwing his toys at each other, you know These are my toys and they're so because my OC And then they you know, they fight each other And they have their lightsaber battles And then the ships fly around and blow each other up, you know That's how I that's kind of yeah Because Snyder will like rip out Superman's heart And show it to the screen and be like look at this Meanwhile Filoni will be like You know protecting all of his children all the time And be like they made it in the end Oh look that was scary Oh that could have been bad Here they go Off they are Yay we did it That sort of stuff So there are similarities but I yeah I'd give Snyder more credit than I'd give Filoni Let's put it that way Oh god I think I might agree Which is really awkward as the But it's like Oh it is awkward but I just Especially it might just be because Ahsoka's fresh in my mind And I had to spend a lot of time with that It could be that yeah But you did very And I really do hate that show I could see us When we finish up Filoni being like Yeah okay Snyder's bad But at least Snyder actually tries to do a thing And fails at it And then but if we finished up watching Filoni Sorry Snyder recently We might have said yeah Filoni's bad But at least like he's you know Inoffensive I mean while Snyder will do things that are Fucking crazy and insane Yeah I guess it's I guess the thing that I do like 300 You know When was the last time you watched it Fringy We didn't we rewatch it like Did we watch it for like an EFAP Movies Where the takeaway was that it was like Pretty flawed But I still like that movie Well so you know what's crazy is I'm pretty sure we did But you were there I'm not sure what it was I definitely recently like rewatched 300 I say recently in the last couple of years And I'm confident my takeaway was like Yeah it was pretty flawed but like You know I do like it Um well that is the first EFAP movies Of the War Rock So you guys are gonna be able to see that In January But um at this point I rags I feel like you may feel the same way I can't quite remember anything we said Anymore It's been a while I think I don't hate it I don't think I don't think I hate it either I don't hate it I thought I thought I had some neat little things in there But it wasn't good Also no Wait just to clarify You're not getting the whole War Rock in January It's gonna be across the year one per month Or maybe two That's the that's the plan I've talked about this like Even two years ago okay This we're finally launching That's actually why by the way that uh Things are stretched thin is because I'm Putting everything in place to complete the War Rock Ready for uh January It's not finished yet Still But hey It's gonna be fun Get excited Also bring a carry on What will we say Oh damn well Cause we're trying to figure out It's like if If we can if we can say that Dave Filoni and Snyder are comparable in a certain way Who do we think Who do you think if you if it's like you had to be forced to Let's put it this way They're working on something new now And it's whatever they want to make Like their full carte blanche They can make whatever they want Not attached to any specific franchise But maybe it is It's exactly what they want to make And they have all of the resources to fully realize that story Which one would you rather watch Snyder one or the Filoni one You could just say like do you want to see Rebel Moon Or do you want to see Let's just say Whatever sci-fi project that's Well not not removed from Star Wars If Filoni work that's Entirely what he wants Which funnily enough if he got entirely what he wanted Probably would be a Star Wars movie That's probably what he wants Yeah that's probably in my mind In any case uh Yes I would rather see the Snyder film Just because of the fact that I don't know what I'm gonna get This could be crazy And it also could have some stuff in there I like Yeah there could be some neat shots There could be some interesting I certainly consider Snyder to have a better eye Than Dave Filoni Yeah I think I think he's got a better Well I don't want to be pretentious It's all in boring Dare I say Snyder's more of an artist than Filoni is Uh yes he is I would absolutely say that Yeah definitely Good I didn't think I was crazy for a second Yeah Snyder shitty but he is an artist He's cringe That's that's his thing It's not his cringe I believe that he does Have a passion for storytelling I just think that it's cringe Like it's ideal 15 year old cringe is way less cringe Than 13 year old cringe Bear and agreed And on the topic of Ahsoka Let's check out what Ijien thought Give me a funny little uh Ending to this as well Um Is that a bit of foreshadowing But yeah It's October Wait it's the week of Friday Wait hold on Wait here's an idea Let's before we Before we watch the finale Let's find out what Ijien gave us No That was gonna be the joke ending We'll do that at the end Okay We'll we'll go into this as a Wide-eyed Bushy-tailed viewer Who's like Oh look this is This is Ijien's opinion on Ahsoka for sure Okay this is what it is All right It's October It's the week of Friday the 13th And I'm a huge horror nerd As you'd expect I'd previously planned on this edition To be focused on all of the delightful Tricks and treats of the season Unfortunately I remember when I manifested the sword Uh yeah but to be fair It was the sword of Talzin Relation to Mother Talzin Who if you watched the show You'd find that that's substantive now Because you recognize the name Yeah that's right That's how that works That's how that works How did they have to do that? And then General Grievous went along It was just kind of like A sword out of a chest So I'm not even kidding Like I actually think that That's partly the plan sometimes It's like maybe originally It was just a sword And then they were like Can we name it something So that fans have something to think While this scene is happening Call it the sword of Talzin That'll do it And even if I don't Like I'm not saying that It wasn't the sword of Talzin What I'm trying to say Is that like There's nothing actually there Other than It's that thing you know From that other thing There's nothing of interest By that sword belonging to Mother Talzin or whatever It's just like what Even for the people who are Familiar with her Which by the way Dave hello Like most people Are not familiar with this You need to help them out Just a little bit Taste of Ahsoka season finale Out of my mouth So we'll be spending more time On the spooky stuff later this month For now The trick we're going to talk about Is the one that Remember Maroc? Remember Maroc?  Cause I was actually gonna say How is it that a lightsaber Stops the spell? Why would that happen? Yeah Oh They just like immediately Make another It's not a very good one They Well they didn't make another one He was just there That was it It's like It's a consequence Less kill Basically like Raiq said It's crazy Because It would be like Wait can you Can you do that multiple Can you just make force Users with lightsabers That's just a thing you can do I mean why not just do that But we know you can clone them But this is just the magic version God Lonely why The whole of Ahsoka Played on the audience This never happened before No This is This showcases some of Star Wars' biggest Problems He's okay Lucky us I think uh I agree with that sentiment So let's see where she goes with it At the beginning of the season I wrote Can Ahsoka survive being Rebel season five Amazingly That didn't end up being its problem At least not its biggest one Ahsoka wasn't hamstrung By being a fifth season of a show Not everyone watched Or people not Yeah because I actually think that's a bit of a myth A lot of people are like You didn't watch Rebels And it's like you didn't Watching Rebels would change nothing About how much is in this show But it seems like all it would do Is present contradictions Because people are acting out of character That's what Theo is pointing out The way it would look If it were coming across as bad Because we hadn't seen Rebels Is if there was loads of context That we missed as to why Certain things were happening But most of the fucking Rebels fans Didn't know why certain things were happening It would be like if you watched season four Of Breaking Bad And you hadn't watched seasons one, two, and three It's just like you're in the middle of a story You just get dropped into the middle of a story That's playing out The crazy thing though is you probably could get along Like and then Probably You know you'll be like Are they referencing this older stuff That I don't know about But I mean you know Kind of move on with it But at the same time You would be disoriented from the get go You know when you're like What the fuck is like Like when they draw all this information out of that droid That shouldn't even have been there Like all this stupid convoluted coincidence and stuff You don't go like Yeah but you haven't seen Rebels Yeah exactly That doesn't change anything That doesn't work shit When Hera says I'm a general So nothing is off the limits to me It's like I don't Seeing Rebels does not help that That doesn't That doesn't That's just stupid in and of itself That's where I mean They're both seeds There's just nothing And it's not like Rebels helps The fact that there's nothing here It really contextualizes Those long moments of silence Understanding some of the character motivations Or who other characters were entirely In the end The problem was that whether it was called A Soka season one Or Rebels season five Just ready a tracking device It didn't end up being a season of television What was that edit Why did she show that clip Is it just because the video is from Rebels I guess yeah If that's it but that's video That was an awkward bad edit sorry I thought she was gonna play a clip That was like an answer to her statement From the show Yeah But no I was just like oh okay No answers here Go on Instead it was individual nostalgia play Sprinkled through a long patches of Nothing Nothing Nothing That is troubling Nothing And what makes that so frustrating Is that creator Dave Filoni Absolutely rocks at delivering No No It doesn't look at anything It rocks at nothing But well let's Sorry you cut it off Yeah I was gonna I did cut her off because I mean Let's see what she said Maybe I'll agree with her Rocks at delivering impactful emotional Engaging and most importantly Original Star Wars stories What Oh no What Yeah man Nope Why would you show this image when saying original Yeah Come on This is not original This is not original in multiple ways First of all Darth Vader Character he didn't create So there's that Then there's also the fact that This is a flashback to another show That already exists And then of course there's the fact that the imagery Has been used like by every director That's ever fucking tackled Star Wars at this point Yeah It's it's like it is layers of un-originality here It's kind of incredible isn't it Why didn't she just show like Ahsoka That's his character I guess Yeah If I was asked to show a visual for saying He knows how to make like original stories And stuff whatever I'd just be like yeah just show Ahsoka with Anakin in The Clone Wars There's been no coming Well yeah Ahsoka There used to be two originals In an original scene from an original show Like it's like yeah It's like even the Sith people I mean they look They're like They're like yeah like Balan is uh He's kind of original I guess He's an original character And he's a little bit less archetypal I guess Lightly Slightly less You almost want to say like he's uh He's pretending to be non archetypal That's what's going on there Lisa usually does I want to be clear I love the character Ahsoka Harrison Dula criminally underused in this season Is one of the best Uh no we got No we got enough of her too Yeah it's not that she wasn't used Just that the use was terrible The use was awful I remember like in the first episode I was like oh you're pretty normal And then episode two That little conversation she had already It's like ooh But then fucking C3PO emerging from the fucking aether To get her off the hook For going on this unsanctioned mission That got multiple people killed It's just like oh man Yeah not underused Not underused That's not the problem In fact uh that might have been the problem Because if she was really good And had the same amount of screen time I might have been saying like Where the hell would she should have been in more of this You know that sort of thing That's not the problem that we had Contemporary Star Wars characters I even quickly grew to love Ezra Bridger After catching up on Rebels And meeting him in live action in this new series Um I mean he was okay He was fine Yeah he was okay There's still problems with the way that he acted But you know Yeah I hope she's Is she gonna compliment Sabine And there were even a couple of episodes of Ahsoka That really tugged at my Star Wars loving heart The fucking man If the point of this video is gonna be What I think it is That you should be recognizing That that's all that episode was Just that's designed to just go First two episodes really felt like Star Wars No don't even know No I didn't This was dumb and all the Rebel Or all the Alliance people were fucking dumb And that's like If it's dumb all the time Then it just doesn't feel like Star Wars Well it feels like Shit clown wars as Jeremy puts it Like it's a good this It's just this bullshit other world Where it's a parody of Star Wars It's like space balls You're just like Yeah it's a galaxy where everyone is stupid Yeah like I just As Fringy pointed out right Like I'm never gonna imagine You know like the stupid witches And whatever Like them talking in the same room As Luthor That's never I don't conceive of that being a thing That's not gonna happen And it also would be like Well it can't happen Time like wise I'm like no no Just the fact that those exist As they do to this Yeah In the same way that I don't believe that Han Solo dropped Cthulhu into a black hole How do I believe that happened That was Lucas's vision though I don't believe when we Like there's so much that you can do That can essentially just make me go No that didn't happen No matter how much you say it happened I'm never gonna treat it like it did And it's funny the sequel trilogy Is getting there now for me Where it's just like Yeah it didn't happen You know Yeah they won They saved the day And everything was fine And Luke didn't turn into a hermit Who drinks green milk It's not that there's anything wrong With drinking green milk specifically But you know Necessarily But kids if you go home And your milk is green Please don't drink it Unless it's some kind of Nickelodeon special milk You might need a 1940 at that point But please don't eat it Cause you know milk can have different You can color it Sure yeah You can get green milk Just make sure Like for St. Patrick's Day You could put some green dye in your milk Yeah Beautiful Yeah Is that something that people do Get some Probably get some leprechaun milk Yeah The milking of the leprechaun Is a cherished tradition Why do we presume that the leprechaun's milk Would be green Are mammals I mean I assume like for coxer mammals What I'm saying is Why wouldn't we presume that the milk is green Yeah but green Why would it be green Cause they're leprechauns Okay This is very intuitive I mean to be fair I don't think This is something that started up by a Old gay pinto Whatever So you may not have seen it in Australia yet Cause he's very much America focused I am Does he have a painting of a leprechaun With green milk You got him Man what he gets up to Like I said Very controversial to the 90s What he introduced leprechaun milk That was the whole thing Yeah But you know I think it's big Most people have come to accept that now Gay pinto Walsh of course Okay Right This which never stops being a great feeling And yeah Of course the Anakin episode got me in my feelings It's the music Why It's always the damn music So well But they might literally just be the music You hear that Well then if you're acknowledging that Shouldn't you be listing it as part of the problem Maybe she will I don't know It just sounds like You complimented the episode just a second ago For getting at your heart Oh sorry I didn't find the music that interesting Throughout the whole season If I'm being honest It's just It's pretty just fine It's really hard for me not to see a cartoonishly Like huge Dave Filoni in the background Holding these two with his hands And being like Ah yeah Oh pew pew yeah Oh wow Pew pew yeah It might be just a Pavlovian response To hearing the music I just heard the Star Wars music It's a Star Wars It's a Star Wars And then my eyes did a sad But Getting me in my feelings is easy As I'm secretly Oh really A secret that will remain between Well I mean The fact that Okay But I mean the fact that's Be said that seems to speak to a recognition That this isn't that Like they didn't accomplish much By doing that you know Because remember she said But I am a big you know Sap Her huge compliment to Dave Was referencing this episode In terms of his abilities And now she's saying Well to be fair It's pretty easy to get to my heart With something like this When you're using this music And to be fair I'm like a huge sap So it's like wait so Did he do well or not with this one Yeah maybe she'll clarify Maybe Let's see And television series have a job To tell a complete story Regardless of whether or not They're meant to meet Oh do we want to go controversial with this Controversial is no they don't actually Complete story That's complicated So like if Imagine someone said I fucking hate Empire Strikes Back Because it doesn't tell a complete story But what exactly does it mean To tell a complete story That's part of a bigger story It's kind of it's not There's no clear cut rules on that As we know We're all incredibly excited For Rings of Power season two Because season one is not complete There are still threads to solve So many things I need to know I need to know So many questions unanswered It's just um And if we're saying it for a season Why don't we now write down even more Why not an episode Why should that be the idea Because people used to make those arguments Any episode of TV could be someone's first episode So you need to write it with that understanding But we're in a place where I think if you told that to a lot of people now They'd be like what are you talking about You might describe the ending of arcane As incomplete Season one maybe At the same time it's complete And it's incompleteness Yes I would say Well there are several threads That have started and stopped And new ones will start for season two And new ones will be finished From that start in season one You know you got loads of them running at the same time But a major part of season one is all like Vi and Jinx's relationship But across the whole all the events right And there's a that motion That that event at the end is significant Of like a particular route That the relationship has taken So I understand One could argue it is complete And I'd be like no yeah I understand that It's just that I don't want to put the weight on Ahsoka Season one That its problem is that it's incomplete I'd be like well no There's like not even a story They had a good five six hours there To tell their story Which you know by comparison I mean we just watched Full of the House of Usher That was eight hours That was eight episodes It was fucking dense There's a lot of stuff going on in there At the end of episode one We've already got like maybe Five or six episodes of Ahsoka In terms of the amount of content That's been delivered Maybe more I was about to say I think there's more In one episode of Ahsoka than there is In the whole season for Ahsoka In the whole season That might well be the case And then of course you can point to other Like you know Andor was a Well Andor was pretty locked By comparison 12 episodes It's like yeah but Andor Had essentially created a completed arc In three episodes But it was still you know completed And it's incompleteness Because the story was still going Yeah It's just you know Yeah and of course Andor's not complete either No But does she think that's a problem with Andor That the story was still going to end? Maybe she does Oh maybe but you know Fuck this bait shit man Look at the statues The references The statues The board is Ahsoka doesn't just not tell a complete story But the fraction of the story It does tell just hangs in the air Like the big bad thing They were all trying to stop All season long Thrawn returning to the main galaxy Doesn't matter at all Well no that's Wait no I don't understand what she's saying I wouldn't quite put it that way Like it's My criticism of the show is that like Wow Sabine Good job This is on you And this is Matt Yeah you facilitated this all You were the one who made And the show does not recognize that You did this It was the critical points at which Everything could have been put to an end And she didn't do it And that is hugely consequential Because Thrawn coming back And creating a zombie Like stormtrooper army Is probably going to be hugely consequential So no I would say that the idea that it's like Devoid of Is that what she's actually saying? Like that it was I mean like If I'm being generous It sounds like she's saying that this event Was treated as the big bad horrible thing That we want to avoid And it happens And then the characters That kind of chill about it Which is Yeah I thought that I thought that was what she's saying Because They should all be acting like The Avengers at the end of Infinity War shouldn't they? Yeah like this is a tragedy sort of thing But the Not only are they not like that The soak is like We're exactly where we need to be Smile But I don't know She phrased it in a way that threw me off as well As in long Thrawn returning to the main galaxy Doesn't matter at all Like I would argue the show Thinks it absolutely matters That they're showing us That we're gonna have some dire consequences as a result The characters are out of character In this moment though They're weird But they're kind of weird throughout the show The big criticism Like everyone had this Since episode one Was like why is it that all three of our main characters Are all so fucking wooden What's going on Especially when we know That they're played by actresses That are capable of a hell of a lot more At least two of them are Yeah I think two of them are Yeah By the end of the season Not a single one of our main characters Addresses the fact that the very thing Everyone was trying to start happening Happened Oh good Okay Yeah I agree Um There you go Okay We get I don't want to bat for the show at all But I'm just saying We do get Sabine saying sorry For having caused this to happen With Thrawn And then Ahsoka says I know And that's it That was before that one It will Yeah but the Recognition of the consequence Of Thrawn may very well escape now Because he's got the potential to Like that's still Yeah but like Yes But I don't believe Sabine sorry Well I was going to move into saying That I thought that scene was fucking terrible Like the Oh yeah It's what an absolute crazy waste of conflict To just have all the characters be like Oh well No it's okay No well you win some you lose some You live you learn like goes on Yeah Unless it doesn't because Thrawn's back And he's going to destroy us all But Yeah exactly So is it stop more that you don't buy that What do you mean the thing that happened Like that's He said the scene was shit But it did happen I'm not going to take that away from the show They had to say sorry Ahsoka said that's all right or whatever Like that that did happen If they had never acknowledged it I would have said it's much worse but I was more shocked that like It actually managed to get through I was half expecting none of the characters To say anything to Sabine Well the fact that we went for like A couple episodes there With nobody talking about it Yeah But that remember that conversation Was cut short by an ambush Oh no wait their conversation ended And then the ambush happened Because that's the day full only signature You know can't can't be slow for too long We need to get a fight in there It's that you're bringing it up Even though it's nothing that defends the show It does defend the show slightly It's uh It depends on a little bit It's it's and it's important to be fair To to point out that it was recognized It's just really shittily Which is still better than not recognizing it at all Which is exactly what Ezra did I don't believe we had any line from Ezra About Thrawn did we Like and Sabine's responsibility on that Someone else I saw someone point out That was interesting of the cobwebs For uh what about coverage of it It was like did they seriously take a huge break In order to have Ezra build a lightsaber When like everything was hyper urgent It's like yes they didn't even just have Yu Yang give him one You know make him one quick He's a robot Well and also they were just like going walking pace Just like floating around Yeah and and and if anyone wanted to say like A Jedi has to build their own lightsaber It's like oh wait we're urgent urgent right now Urgent the things that happen But you're not Jedi because you're ordery That's another thing people say as well So she just gets to the point where you're like I'm so fucking complicated It is completely at peace Seemingly indifferent to the threat that the galaxy faces Despite the entire So I think what Felody would tell you is that No no no she knows what she's got a job to do But she is like she's sad now She she she doesn't she doesn't stress out She doesn't panic she knows what's to be done And she will do it she's like Yoda Even though Yoda showed a lot more anxiety In his later years than Ahsoka has at all At least in this Higher motivation of her character has been to stop Thrawns since her introduction into the live action stories Then Hera and Ezra meet up and neither exchanges a word About what his return means A lot of the characters barely talk at all That's the thing Yeah When I watch The Lord of the Rings I get this very clear sense that Frodo and Sam Went to destroy the ring and Mount Doom And all that stuff and all the scenes You're like oh they're doing this Because they're on their way to Mount Doom Where they have to do this so that they can get to Mount Doom It's all like in service to that actual goal And there's a sense of like passion and termination That goes along with that But in this show if you were to say Oh yeah the scene where they're just sort of like Walking around or standing around Or just sort of just meandering in this field Yeah they're trying to stop Thrawn From destroying the galaxy or whatever I'd be like I don't believe you They don't know They're like taking a break or walking or something Well yeah because There's no sense of urgency at all There's like 17 issues with the way Ezra arrives here But another thing that sucks is like His expression should just not be happy I'm sorry there's way too much negative Even though he gets to reunite with Hera I understand that that's a positive But like you imagine the amount of bad news He's about to tell them Well why did Isn't it interesting he didn't try to like kill Thrawn Right he just let him sort of escape Presumably he got onto a ship and left as soon as he could We didn't see any of that so yeah And decided that it wasn't worth taking a Taking a shot at Thrawn He uh he had a lightsaber with him right Yeah I think so Interesting that he was more willing to do it as a Kid I guess Um I don't know I don't know what to think about that That's uh I I guess I would need to watch more Rebels before I could make any more criticism of that Well just tactical retreat or something Yeah The excitement these characters show to be reunited Is important of course Excitement they should Not at the cost of engaging with your story's own stakes True It would have been as easy as following up their Tearburn smiles with the dawning Realization of what seeing each other truly meant Or even I don't even think yeah Even the happy feels wholesomeness was kind of crap They didn't yeah it felt like artificial I will hug you and I will hug you as well I will now giggle This is a symbol of my affection for you Initiating giggle procedures Procedures As we're pointing out to Hera who may not have Realized that his return included the return of Thrawn And you could even have her recognizing that She'd be like wait if you're here And then he's like you know and he's just looking at her And she's looking at him like they're both Stirring Because they both know what it means instead of like Hee hee hello Oh yay Yay Sabine however Has made it abundantly clear that she's willing to sacrifice a whole galaxy If it means getting Ezra back home Yeah So at least one person's reaction makes sense here That's it Um We just Her still doesn't make sense Yeah I don't know if I'd say it makes sense She she doesn't I don't think that she Having her be the character that says like But oh no things aren't as great as it could be You know you point to remember how She reacted when she saw that Ahsoka was alive and Oh my god She reacted when Ezra was basically asking like what's happened You know where is Ahsoka And she's she's just it's just like oh it's complicated Did she just nods and says yeah It's like dude she's dead The only thing you can assume with that is that the actress Genuinely wasn't like given the correct direction Because why would you portray her Like that when she believes that she's not only lost like her mentor One of your best friends one of the most important people in the world Who's trying to say you know I mean this is like How how could you possibly buy that that's what's being expressed there As opposed to the actress being like yeah she's fine She'll be back Because this because I was profoundly uh Unimpressed by Sabine's actress But even she would be able to distinguish between like normalness and sadness This is this is what I mean about that's why I said direction Yeah because like it's no no way this actress is unable to look sad Like I'm pretty sure most people can pull it off even Gal Gadot If you uh just you like look down and be like just don't say a thing There you go you've nailed it Just end there why Well because we're either setting up Dave Filoni's movie or Ahsoka season two I love how that's just everyone's assumption at this point Like that's that's how bad it's got in Disney Nobody believes like that you're doing this for any other reason Than try to sell something else Which you know Ahsoka season two is that a likely prospect Yeah, I don't know I mean I remember didn't Bob I guess say that they're gonna They're gonna be cutting back off some of their productions as well All of the catastrophic results of the recent stuff with Marvel And you walk from Marvel as like a big ol up top person for Disney Walk into the studios for like the live action stuff And you're like good god This is a fucking circus on fire everybody's running around screaming And it's just nobody likes what we're doing and Good god, okay Is there some passion You uh yeah you guys do you I'm gonna go I'm gonna go check out Star Wars It's like oh how's Mad Lauren season three? Yeah, how are we doing? It's like uh numbers aren't great It's like okay Ahsoka numbers aren't great It's like the numbers are worse actually for that one Yeah, it's not great It's like how much money we spend on this? Oh well over a hundred million dollars Maybe close to two hundred million dollars Just wait each And uh we'll get Ahsoka teaming up with Simba Teaming up with Iron Man to reignite all of the franchises What do you think they can actually Because now we've got the the projections for the marvels ain't great They're pretty large panicking They are panicking for sure Especially with the actors and writers strikes holy shit Yeah The absolute chunks getting taken out of Hollywood right now is crazy I have a feeling that in like 50 years from now This era will be looked back on as like Where Hollywood had to make enormous like significant changes Something has to change Because you can't be spending over 200 million dollars on a movie With your long term domestic projections At like 120 to 150 million dollars Yeah Like that's like that's crazy Or I think it might have been a little Wh