Live from Las Vegas, it's theCUBE, covering Dell Technologies World 2018. Brought to you by Dell EMC and its ecosystem partners. Welcome back to theCUBE. We are live in Las Vegas, day two of Dell Technologies World. I'm Lisa Martin with Stu Miniman, my co-host, and we're excited to welcome to theCUBE for the first time the CIO of TGen, Translational Genomics, James Lowy. James, welcome to theCUBE. Ah, thank you so much. It's great being here. So, Genomics, really interesting topic that we want to get into and understand how are you making IT and digital and WordPress transformation real in it? But give our viewers an overview of TGen. It started out about 16 years ago as a very collaborative effort within Arizona and really grew. Talk to us about that. Yeah, absolutely. So, TGen is a non-profit biomedical research institute based in Phoenix, Arizona. As you mentioned, we've been around about 16 years. The inception of the institute was really built around bringing biomedical technology into the state of Arizona and we're fortunate enough to have a really visionary and gifted leader in Dr. Jeffrey Trent, who is one of the original guys to sequence the human genome completely for the first time. So, I don't know if you get any better street cred than that when it comes to Genomics. And you mentioned, before we went live, give our viewers an overview of what it took to sequence the human genome in terms of time and money and now, how 15 years later, how fast it can be done. Yeah, so we've moved from a point where it cost billions of dollars in so many years to complete the first sequence to today where it takes a little bit over a day and about $3,000. So it's really the democratization of the technology is driving clinical application, which in turn is going to benefit all of us. James, Genomics is one of those areas when we talk about there is the opportunity of data but there's also the challenge of data because you've got to, I have to imagine, just orders of magnitude more data than your typical company does. So, talk to us a little bit about the role of data inside your organization. Well, data is our lifeblood. I mean, we've been generating tera-scale, then peda-scale for many years now and the fact is, you know, every time you sequence a patient you're generated about four terabytes of data for one patient. So if you're doing 100 patients do the math or you're doing 1,000 patients, we're talking to just an immense volume of data and really, you know, data is what drives us because that information that's encoded in our genome is nothing but data, right? It's turning our analog selves into a digital format that then we can interrogate to come up with, you know, better treatments to help patients. Can you bring us inside when you talk about the infrastructure that enables that? You know, what I was teasing at with the last question, it's not just about storing data. You need to be able to have access to that data. You need to be able to share data. So as the CIO, what's your purview? Give us a little bit of a thumbnail sketch as to what your organization looks like. Oh yeah, yeah, no, that's great. So we've been a long time Icelon customer. The scale out storage is what really has enabled us to be successful. Our partnership with Dell EMC has spanned many years and we're fortunate enough to have enough visibility within the organization to get early access to technologies and really that's really important because the science moves faster than the IT.  How have you been with TGen for a long time now? You've been the CIO for about three years. Talk to us about the transformation of the technology and how you've evolved it to not just facilitate digital transformation and IT transformation, but I imagine security transformation with human genetic data is of paramount importance. You know, that's a really good point. Security is always on my mind for obvious reasons because I would say there's nothing more personally identifiable than your genome. There's the laws around these things still have not been totally codified. So we're sitting at a point today where we're still uncertain to how exactly best protect this very, very important data. But to that end, we tend to fail in the closed state of doing things, you know, everything is encrypted. You know, we are big believers in identity management and making sure that the right people have access to the right data at the right time. You know, we've utilized secure works, for instance, for perimeter logging and to get their expertise. Because one of the things that I've learned in my tenure as CIO is that it's really all about the people and they're what drive your success. And so I'm fortunate enough to have a team that's amazing. These folks are some of the best people in their field and really do a great job at helping us, you know, protect the data, you know, get access to the data as well as, you know, thinking about what the next iteration is going to look like. Yep. When you look at just as a whole the security and data protection, you think about everybody if they get those home kits or things like that, how does that evolve the last few years? I'm curious if that impacts your business. Well, I think it does impact our business insofar that it creates awareness. And you know, I think it's really fantastic when I attend a cocktail party or something and people come up and ask, you know, should I get the 23andMe or Ancestry, you know, and they're really engaged and interested in wanting to learn about these things. And I think that's going to spur questions to be asked when they go in to get treated by a physician, which is really important. I think I'm a believer that we should own our own data, especially our genomic data, because what's more personal than that. And so we have a lot of challenges ahead, I think, in IT in particular, in protecting, storing, and providing that data to patients. Just a quick follow-up, I'm sure you secure stuff. What's the cocktail answer for that? If you know, should I get that? Can I trust this company or my insurance company and everybody else going to get that? What do you advise the average consumer? I would say read the terms of use agreement very carefully. So the theme of the event, James, make it real. Few things are more real than our own data or our own genomes. What does that theme mean to you from an application perspective? How are you making digital transformation real? And things like the alliance with city of hope to impact disease, study, and cures. What's that reality component to you? Yeah, I really like the make it real theme and I think it's something that we are doing every day. I think it just speaks to taking technology, applying it for meaningful use, to actually make a difference, and to do something that has real impact. And I think that at TGen, I've been empowered to build systems that can do that, that can help our scientists and ultimately help patients. You mentioned city of hope. We're, our alignment with them is amazing. They have just hired a chief digital officer as they go through a digital transformation of their own and we're on board and striving to help them go through this process because as you might be aware, it's like everything's about the data and that's where we have to focus.  How do you report back to the business as to the results that you're doing? Do you have any hero metrics or things that you point out that says this is why we're successful, this is why we've made the right decision, this is why we should be doing this in the future? Well, I think we're especially fortunate that we can measure our success in people's lives. So meeting a kid who's in full remission from brain cancer, who is treated using drugs that were derived from being sequenced and run through our labs and then our computational infrastructure and having them say thank you I think is pretty much a metric that I don't know how you can beat that. Talk about making it real. That's where it's really impactful. I'd love to understand your thoughts as you continue to evolve your transformation as a company. We've heard a lot about emerging technologies and what Dell EMC, Dell Technologies is doing to enable organizations and customers to be able to realize what's possible with artificial intelligence, machine learning, IoT. What are your thoughts about weaving in those emerging technologies to make what TGen delivers even more impactful? Well you just said three of my favorite things that I'm spending a lot of time thinking about. Artificial intelligence is going to be absolutely is required to interrogate the vast amount of data that are being created. I mean this is all unstructured data so you have to have systems that can store and present that data in such a way that you're going to be able to do something meaningful. IoT is another area where we're spending a lot of time and energy in what we believe is like quantitative medicine. So basically taking measurements all the time to see about changes and then using that to hopefully gain insight into treatment of disease. Machine learning and some of these technologies are also absolutely going to be critical especially when we start building out drug databases and being able to match the patient with a drug. James bring us inside to your organization a little bit. What kind of skill sets do you have to have to architect, operate, a theme of this show, they've got Andy McAfee speaking who's from MIT we've spoken to. It's about people and machines. You can't have one without the other. You need to be able to marry those two. How does an organization like yours get ready for that and move forward? Yeah that's a really good point. I think the technology enables the people and you have to have the right people to help make the decisions and what technologies that you get and apply. And I think that the skill sets that we look for is generally people who have a broad view of the world. People who are particular experts at least in the IT side are of limited use because we need people to be able to switch gears quickly and to think about problems holistically. So I'd say most of the IT folks are working several different disciplines and are really good at that. In the scientific side it's a little different. We're looking for data scientists all the time so if anybody's watching and wants to come work for a great place, T-Gen, look us up. Because that's really where we're headed. We have a lot of biologists, we have a lot of molecular biologists, we have people who do statistics but it's not quite the same as data science. So that's kind of the new area that we're really focused on. All right so James one of the things I always love to ask when I get a CIO here is when you're talking to your peers in the industry how do you all see the role of the CIO changing? What are some of the biggest challenges that you're facing? So yeah that's a great question. I think the role is changing towards being empowered in the business and I think that has to be part of the transformation is you have to be aligned completely with what your objectives are. And we're fortunate, we are and I feel that very lucky to have a boss and a boss's boss who both understand the importance and the value that we bring to the organization. I also see that in the industry, especially in healthcare that a need for folks who are focused beyond just the EMR and daily IT things to really start looking beyond maybe where you're comfortable. I know that I stretch my boundaries and I think that in order to be successful as a CIO I think that's what you're going to have to do. I think you're going to have to push the envelope. You're going to have to look for new technologies and new ways to make a difference. So last question, big impact that Tijan has made to the state of Arizona. So I read on LinkedIn that you like building high performance teams. What are some of the impacts that that this has made for Arizona but also maybe as an example for other states to look to to be inspired to set up something similar? That's really a great question. I think Arizona made an investment and the way that it's easy to measure is if you come down to the Tijan building and realize that that building was the first building that is now surrounded by buildings including a full on cancer center that's all in downtown Phoenix. And it's almost the if you build it, they will come. But it's not just the infrastructure. It really is about the people and identifying the right folks to come in and help, you know, build that to invest in them and to provide basically the opportunity for success. You know, Arizona has really been fortunate, I think, and being able to build out this amazing infrastructure around biotechnology. And, you know, but we're just getting going. I mean, we are. We've only been doing this for about 16 years and I look forward to the next 16. Well, thanks so much, James, for stopping by and talking about how you're applying technologies not just from Dell EMC but others as well to make transformation real, to make it a real across IT, digital workforce, security, and doing something that's really, literally has the opportunity to save lives. Thanks so much. Well, thank you very much. It's been a pleasure. We want to thank you for watching theCUBE. I'm Lisa Martin with my co-host Stu Miniman. We are live day two of Dell Technologies World. We'll be back after a lunch break. We'll see you then.


actually 10 years ago. The training facilities looked very much like they did 10 years ago. I was also able to sit in on an AR yesterday and I could see the level of training, the quality that my folks here from the 40th cab are getting is top notch. So you may or may not know that the 40th cab consists of soldiers from nine different states and the opportunity to bring those aviators together along with their maintainers, the air traffic control and to build that cohesive team. We're doing that really with the help and the expertise of the 166th aviation battalion and First Army Midwest. The OCTs that we've been able to work with, I say we, you know the 40th cab are very experienced, but one of the things that they bring is a different perspective and it's sometimes hard to see yourself and understand what your strengths are and what your weaknesses are. Sometimes being able to have somebody come from outside and to take a look at you, you're going to get critique and you're going to get feedback on things that you didn't see yourself because we do have fantastic instructor pilots. We have great leadership here, but again, having another view of yourself from outside and for those people to be as highly qualified as they are to be able to not only find the things that we need to work on, but actually give us the tools and say, hey, you know, you might try this battle drill this way or use this SOP. And so they're not only identifying areas that we might need to work on and also letting us know what our strengths are, but giving us the tools so that when this organization goes forward, it's going to be as strong as it possibly can be. The National Guard has never been busier than we've been in the last year. When the COVID pandemic hit, we did not have the luxury of shutting down operations like corporations and other entities across the United States because our communities still need us to do things. We've been very active over the last year augmenting skilled nursing facilities, operating food banks. We've had soldiers out assisting the coroner with the mortuary fairs. We've had a huge fire season last year as well. And then on top of that, we had a massive activation last summer when the civil unrest happened. In California, we activated 10,000 soldiers in a matter of three days. And from the time that we were requested until the time we had the first soldier on the ground, it was a matter of about six hours. So it's been really busy. Our strength is, again, that we're part of the community, that most of us hold other jobs or do something else when we're not in uniform. And that brings really a whole other layer of skill sets that you don't necessarily find on the active duty side. So for instance, my Command Sergeant Major for the 40th Infantry Division, he's the principal of a high school, you know, and we have architects, we have small business owners, we have people that are leaders in their community. And when they come, they bring those skills and those talents with them. And I think it makes us very adaptable and very agile to the changing circumstances and the challenging times that we find ourselves in. Yeah, you know, People First has really always been a priority of my own. So I'm really glad that the Chief Staff of the Army is obviously making a priority as well. So the National Guard is a little bit different because we are responsible for doing our own recruiting and retention in our unit depends on us being organized as well equipped as possible, but fundamentally taking care of our people and not just our soldiers, but our soldiers' families and for those that have jobs outside the National Guard, the employers as well. And if we don't prioritize people, we will not be able to recruit and retain the talent that we need. So it's absolutely critical to our success. From a mobilization standpoint, you know, I think it would be shared across all Compos that we did not join the Army to train. We joined the Army because we want to defend our nation against enemies foreign and domestic. And so when you have the opportunity to take the training that you've received and actually apply it, it is the most fulfilling thing as a soldier. And as I've been circulating around talking to soldiers, they're really thrilled to be able to do their job and to fulfill their purpose in the Army. And they all understand whether it's an air traffic controller, supply and CO, aircraft mechanic or pilot, they all understand how important their jobs are for making the mission work. And so I think you'll find soldiers are pretty happy and pretty satisfied to be out here preparing to deploy. They're obviously all also concerned about their families at home as well. And that's really the downside is that those of us in uniform, we do this voluntarily. We do it because we love it. We wouldn't stay if we didn't. But our families sometimes have more sacrifice than we do serving in uniform. Yeah, I was thrilled to hear that General Johnson was taking over as commander of First Army Div West. I've had the opportunity to talk to him. The complexities of the National Guard and the way we operate in the homeland versus preparing for combat really are enhanced by having somebody with National Guard experience in this position here. His predecessor, General Tate, was also a great partner to the Guard. But again, having somebody in the job that understands both the strengths and the challenges that we bring to the warfight is super helpful. My experience as the first female Infantry Division commander is probably the same as any male Infantry Division commander. When you grow up in the aviation community, it's very much standards-based and it's been my goal throughout my career to find out what that standard is, meet and exceed it, you know, whenever I can. But I found that being a female really has had no impact to how I'm treated throughout the army. I've always been treated with respect and professionalism the entire time that I've been in military service. Well, I have been talking to them as I circulate around and I tell them all how proud I am of them and how confident I am in their ability to do the mission and I know they will get it done because, you know, we're the National Guard, we're always ready, always there and no matter what you throw at us, we make it happen and we accomplish the mission.


ads heard during the podcast that are not in my voice are placed by third-party agencies outside of my control and should not imply an endorsement by Weird Darkness or myself. Stories and content in Weird Darkness can be disturbing for some listeners and is intended for mature audiences only. Parental discretion is strongly advised. In early September 1944, a streamed series of events occurred in the small central Illinois town of Mattoon. According to eyewitnesses, numerous sightings and even physical evidence left behind, the town was under attack by a mysterious man in black who was, for unknown reasons, spraying some sort of paralyzing gas into the windows of unsuspecting residents. Who this man was, what his agenda might have been, and where he vanished to, all remain a mystery to this day. In this episode, we look at the strange but true story of the mad gasser of Mattoon. I'm Darren Marlar and this is Weird Darkness. Welcome Weirdos, I'm Darren Marlar and this is Weird Darkness. Here you'll find stories of the paranormal, supernatural, legends, lore, crime, conspiracy, mysterious, macabre, unsolved and unexplained. If you're new here, welcome to the show and if you're already a member of this Weirdo family, please take a moment and invite someone else to listen. Recommending Weird Darkness to others helps make it possible for me to keep doing the show. And while you're listening, be sure to check out WeirdDarkness.com, where you can find me on Facebook, Twitter, Instagram, Mines, Miwi and more, along with the Weird Darkness Weirdos Facebook group. Coming up in this episode, some believe it was a lone gun experiment. Others believe the whole incident was something from the paranormal, and still others say it was a case of mass hysteria. What exactly was the mad gasser of Mattoon?  There have been periods in history where seemingly bizarre events have unfolded and then simply ceased again just as quickly. And that is very much the case with a spate of apparent gas attacks that presented themselves to the residents of Mattoon in Illinois during the fall of 1944. Over a period of two weeks, the small town found itself under siege from apparent random attacks involving the unleashing of a powerful and seemingly unknown gas. This would not only cause an instant illness and vomiting, but also leave those exposed to it being at least partially paralyzed. What's more, and perhaps even stranger, these effects would wear off relatively quickly, leaving the victim otherwise unharmed. Perhaps stranger still, there appeared to be no reason for the attacks other than to carry them out. No one was ever assaulted or harmed permanently, and no one was relieved of their possessions, valuables or money. Was this a case of mass hysteria as the local law enforcement ultimately claimed, or was there a mysterious culprit who was carrying out lone-gun type experiments on unsuspecting members of the population? Might the answer even lie in conspiracy quarters or even in the realms of the paranormal? Many researchers even likened the incidents to those of Spring Healed Jack, who terrorized Victorian England in a similar fashion, and who despite instilling fear and the odd scratch, didn't cause any physical harm to those who witnessed him. And, like Spring Healed Jack, the identity of the Mad Gasser of Mattoon remains unknown and shrouded in mystery. So much so that it still holds the interests of those who wish to research the unsolved and the unexplained today. Newspapers cover the sightings and incidents as they happened at the time, and there have been numerous accounts written in books over the years, with one of the best and most thorough to be found in Mysterious America, the ultimate guide to the nation's weirdest wonders, strangest spots and creepiest creatures by Lauren Coleman. As I'm sure you'll agree, the events of the fall of 1944 in this small Illinois town are indeed some of the most mysterious and intriguing anywhere on record. The first recorded incident unfolded on the morning of August 31, 1944 when a local man, Urban Rafe, felt strangely unwell upon waking. In fact, according to newspaper reports, Rafe claimed a strange odor was responsible for bringing him out of sleep as well as the unwell feeling he had upon waking. He was soon experiencing vomiting alongside the general nauseous, unwell feeling and ultimately woke his wife for assistance. Not knowing what the problem was, she initially wondered if he might be suffering from gas poisoning from their gas oven. However, when she went to check if the appliance was working as it should, she discovered that she herself was having difficulty moving as if she was somehow paralyzed somewhat. Although the couple would ultimately recover with no apparent long-term ill effects, it was a complete mystery as to what had caused the unnerving, if temporary illness. It was, though, just the first of such bizarre incidents that would unfold throughout the small Illinois town. Later that morning, from a completely different location, a mother awoke when she heard her daughter coughing badly in the other room. However, she too discovered that she had great difficulty moving when she went to go and see. Once more, both the mother and the daughter would feel better a short time later, but there was no explanation as to why they had been so unwell in the first place. There were further strange incidents that took place later that day. However, on the evening of the 1st of September, the first case that was widely reported in the media took place, and following the report of it, the eyes of the nation began to turn to focus on Mattoon, Illinois. At around 11 p.m. on the evening of the 1st of September, Mrs. Carney was sleeping in her bedroom. Her young daughter Dorothy was asleep in the same room. However, she suddenly awoke due to what she called a sickening sweet odor that filled the room. To begin with, she believed all she was smelling was the flowers that were outside the window, and she attempted to go back to sleep. However, when the smell continued to increase in intensity, as well as the fact that she was beginning to lose feeling in her legs, she realized something strange was underway. It was at this point that panic set in, causing the young housewife to scream out for help. Her cries were heard by her sister, Mrs. Reddy, as well as several of her neighbors who rushed to her home to see what the matter was. After checking that she wasn't hurt, several of the neighbors searched outside the home for any side of an intruder, but discovered nothing out of the ordinary. The police, who arrived to investigate the incident to short later, similarly, made no discoveries. However, when Mrs. Carney's husband Burt, who'd been at work as a taxi driver, returned home, he claimed to have seen a man who was crouching near one of the house's windows. Although he was not able to apprehend the man, he did obtain an accurate description, a description that would be given multiple times over the coming weeks. He would state that the person at the window was seemingly particularly tall and dressed in dark clothing with a tight-fitting cap. Despite the bizarre nature of the incident, which left the terrified housewife with a strange burning sensation to her mouth, lips, and throat, the police and the Carney's themselves believed that someone had attempted to rob them. This was in part, they felt, due to them having a large amount of money in the house at the time. However, the events in Matun would continue, and they would become even stranger. More accounts continued to pour in from all parts of the area, but the discovery of Bula Cordes got everyone talking. More of the Mad Gasser of Matun, up next on Weird Darkness. No matter the time of day or season, sometimes you need to find a way to rid yourself of those ghostly chills that bring raised hairs and goose bumps to your skin. Other times, you're looking for those ghostly chills. Either way, it sounds like you need a mug of Weird Dark Roast coffee. Weird Dark Roast coffee has deep notes of cocoa, caramel, and a touch of sinister sweetness that'll send shivers down your taste buds. This is an exclusive coffee that I selected specifically for you, my Weirdo family. Weird Dark Roast is not available in stores, coffee houses, mad scientist labs, or even the dark web, but you can find it at WeirdDarkness.com slash coffee. Weird Dark Roast coffee, fresh roasted to order so it's as fresh as it can be when it lands on your doorstep and knocks three times. Grab yours now at WeirdDarkness.com slash coffee. That's WeirdDarkness.com Weird Dark Roast coffee does not actually knock on your door because it doesn't have arms or hands so if you hear knocks at the door and no one answers when you ask who it is, it's probably paranormal and you should just leave the door shut and locked. There were several more similar accounts from various parts of the town reported to police over the coming days, all with extremely similar details. However, it was the encounter of another local woman, Bula Cordes, on the evening of September 5th that aroused the interest of the public once more, not least as it resulted in a piece of physical evidence of the apparent attacker. On the night in question, at around 10pm, Bula arrived at her home with her husband Carl. That evening, they entered the property through the back door and, after spending several minutes moving about their home, Bula went to the front door to unlock it. As she did so however, she noticed what appeared to be a white cloth that had been left on the porch. She went outside and reached down for the cloth. As soon as she touched it, she could tell that it had been soaked in a liquid of some kind. She brought the cloth to her face to inhale it and see if she could tell what the liquid might have been. However, as soon as she did this, she had a sensation similar to coming into contact with a very strong electrical current. What's more, this feeling raced down her entire body, seeming to settle in her knees and bringing on a feeling of paralysis. Before she realized what was happening, she had vomited violently before experiencing the same burning feeling to her lips, mouth and throat that had been reported by Mrs. Carney. On this occasion, she would even experience her mouth bleeding. However, much like others who had reported the strange and sudden illness that was now gripping Bula Cordas, she appeared to make a full recovery within 90 minutes. Upon investigating the incident, police would also discover a skeleton key that appeared to have seen significant use as well as an empty lipstick tube. It's not known if these items were connected to the incident. Bula Cordas would speculate that whatever was on the soaked cloth, the perpetrator might have wished to use it to knock out the family's pet dog, which she claimed would have usually been asleep on the porch. Of course, this would suggest someone had familiarized themselves with the family's movements and habits. Despite an attempt to find a rational explanation for the incident, it would appear that simple robbery was not the motivating factor. And the incidents would continue to be reported to the local police, who by now were realizing that something strange and potentially monstrous was taking place in their otherwise sleepy, peaceful town. In fact, one of the next incidents occurred that same evening when Mrs. Burrell claimed she heard someone outside her window before the sweet, sickly odor of gas hit her nostrils. She too found she was partially paralyzed before making a full recovery. It was clear to local law enforcement that something had to be done before the town descended into panic and possibly vigilantism. Around half a dozen almost identical reports surfaced the next day alone, with one of the witnesses claiming they saw a tall man running from his home shortly after he noticed the strange, sickly smell. In another incident, the witness claiming to have seen a blue vapor-type substance appear along with a machine-like buzzing sound from outside the house. As the days went on, reports kept on coming into the police, and more and more of them claimed that footprints had been left outside their properties or that some physical damage had been done to windows or screens. According to local newspapers, who some have in retrospect accused of over-sensationalizing the incidents, many of the victims claimed they felt something akin to an electric shock which passes completely through the body. They would soon suffer from intense nausea before eventually becoming fully or partially paralyzed for an hour to an hour and a half. Once recovered, however, they would then experience an intense burning sensation to the mouth and throat. Police had several theories initially, the main one being that the attacks were being carried out by a lone individual with a basic knowledge of chemistry. There was even talk of pulling together a financial reward for the capture of this individual. Although the attacks appeared to quiet down on the 7th of September, there were still multiple reports from increasingly anxious citizens of strange men appearing to loiter around their properties. And ultimately, as that anxiety continued to bubble away, local residents began to organize themselves into makeshift patrol groups around the town, many of them armed. And what's more, these bordering on vigilante groups were increasingly frustrated with the police and their apparent inability to capture the perpetrator. When the attacks began again on the 8th, the local police as well as government officials realized the situation had the potential to really get out of hand. The daytime hours of September 8th in Mattoon were without incident. However, later that evening, with many of the residents asleep or secure in their homes, the mad gasser struck again. That evening, at home with her mother, Ramona Driscoll woke up to the sounds of someone outside the window. Her mother Violet heard it too. By the time they jumped out of bed and made their way to the front door, Ramona had vomited and was unable to move. Violet, however, did later claim they saw a tall man running from the property. Several hours later, in the early hours of September 9th, multiple other attacks would unfold. At shortly before 2am, for example, several residents who were asleep in the same house awoke to find gas entering the room through an open window. A short time after that incident, according to local newspaper reports the following day, the principal of a local school, Ms. Frances Smith, awoke to the same sickly odor and realized she was unable to move properly and felt increasingly ill. They would even claim to have seen a thin, blue, smoke-like vapor making its way through the room as they lay helpless on their beds. They would further report a strange buzzing sound which made them believe that whoever was outside and was responsible for unleashing the gas had done so with some kind of machinery or device. By the time the 10th of September was unfolding, multiple other similar attacks were reported to the police. It was also around this time that the FBI had seemingly taken an interest in the reports coming out of Mattoon and ultimately dispatched two agents to the town, although they seemingly did so discreetly. Whether coincidence or not, it was also at this time when the Commissioner of Public Health for the region, Thomas Wright, announced that while there is no doubt a gas maniac exists and has made a number of attacks, many of the actual reports were nothing more than hysteria, elaborating that this hysteric fear was out of proportion to the menace of the relatively harmless gas being used. Ultimately, the whole town is sick with hysteria, he said. Was Wright making these statements of his own accord in order to calm the local residents, or might the FBI's presence in Mattoon be connected to this apparent distancing of the police and officials from the incidents? This might be easy to dismiss if the local chief of police hadn't then gone on to claim only two days later that there had likely been no attacks and that the odor being noticed by residents was likely from industrial facilities nearby. Essentially, it appeared that the police were preparing to abandon taking or investigating any further reports of the apparent mad gas man. However, further incidents would still take place. Before we examine some of the possible explanations, it's worth our time looking at some of the last reported incidents of the Mad Gasser of Mattoon before they stopped as quickly as they began. For example, on the evening of September 10th, while she was in her kitchen, Mrs. Fitzpatrick suddenly noticed a strange gas coming in through the window. She almost immediately felt ill and ultimately fell to the ground unable to move. Her husband suffered similar symptoms when he came to her assistance. There were several other similar reports of gas attacks that evening. Then after a respite of two days, the attacks appeared to begin again. The last reported incident took place on September 13th after the chief of police had claimed that in his opinion no attacks had actually taken place when local resident Bertha Birch noticed gas entering her bedroom. However, on this occasion, the witness claimed they managed to get a relatively clear look at the attacker and claimed to have seen a woman dressed in man's clothing. Furthermore, upon examining the outside of the property the following day, she and her son discovered evidence of high-heeled stiletto-styled imprints under the bedroom window where they claimed the gas had entered the property. This is perhaps a particularly interesting detail and that almost all assumptions to this point had been that the assailant was likely a relatively young male. However, it is perhaps interesting to note that many of the male residents were stationed around the United States and even abroad fighting on the battlefields of the Second World War in Europe or on the islands near Japan. It perhaps then makes a certain amount of sense to suspect that the mad gasser might have been a woman attempting to pass herself off as a man. Ultimately, though, the attacks suddenly ceased and the identity of whoever carried them out remained a complete mystery. There were, and still is, though, many suggestions and theories as to just what was behind the bizarre incidents of September 1944 in Matune, Illinois. As we might imagine, there have been multiple different suggestions as to who or what was behind the apparent gas attacks of 1944. Might it have been accurate to suggest that these events, for the most part, were nothing more than a case of mass hysteria? While some of the reports could very well have been mistaken sightings, it certainly does not explain the physical evidence, such as footprints and even the soaked cloth. However, this still remains the most likely explanation, at least in the eyes of many academics and mainstream psychologists, and they could very well be correct. However, to some, the explanation can't be that simple. Another explanation was that the attacks were, in fact, the result of chemicals from the industrial areas of the town, including toxic waste. In fact, some of the potential chemicals that could have escaped such facilities would have had a sweet odor to them. However, these assertions were dismissed by the companies involved. Not only had they operated in the area for some time with no such incidents, but the chemicals that did escape their facilities were not in large enough amounts to induce such reactions in people, and the safety certification of the plant awarded by the State Department of Health essentially backed up this response. Besides, the attacks appeared much more concentrated and targeted as opposed to a toxic cloud that would pass over and through each and every house in the area. There are, though, other suggestions for us to examine. If the incidents of the fall of 1944 in Mattoon were not a case of mass hysteria, then might the attacks have been carried out by a lone individual? One of the most popular theories is that they could have been the work of a lone inventor looking to test his product. This was certainly the view of the local police at the time, if only temporarily. However, rather than risk capture and likely jail from such actions merely for fun, it surely was much more likely that an individual would have some kind of end goal in mind, quite possibly a financial one. After all, the fact that the Second World War was still raging during the time of the attacks perhaps leaves open the notion that such an individual may have wished to approach the military or the government with such a weapon and have them use it for the war effort. And, perceived patriotism aside, the speculative individual could potentially have made a lot of money from such a successful arrangement. Perhaps the said individual might have been looking further afield to offload this potentially and speculative unknown technology, and maybe this explains why they disappeared so suddenly and decisively. In fact, taking this speculation a stage further, might there have been a more direct military involvement, a clandestine involvement that they coordinated, supervised and executed? That is where we will turn our attention next. Although this is purely speculation, might the mystery behind the gas attacks in Mattoon lie in some kind of covert military experiment? We should remind ourselves, for example, that the incidents unfolded during the tail end of the war. Might the gas attacks have been an experiment with a mysterious gas that might have been used to incapacitate but not kill? Admittedly, such a notion would surely be unlikely, and the charge that a covert military program taking part on members of one's own population is a serious one. It is not completely beyond the realm of possibility, though. Might this also explain the discreet arrival of the FBI and the sudden change in the outlook of the local police? After all, no one was actually harmed during the attacks, with any effects unpleasant though they were wearing off in a matter of hours. As we have already examined, the greater danger certainly toward the end of the incidents with local frustration building was from the townsfolk themselves should they decide to take justice into their own hands. Once more there is no evidence to support this speculative notion. However, given that there remains a genuine mystery surrounding the incidents, it is perhaps speculation that we should consider from time to time. Was there an attempt to test a chemical mixture that seemingly produced instant incapacitation of the target but that would leave no lasting effects or cause any harm? If so, what were the plans for such a gas? And might this explain why the attacks stopped so suddenly with the apparent perpetrator able to just melt back into society completely undetected? Of all the possible explanations, one of the strangest believed by most is that the mad gasser of Mattoon is something paranormal. We'll look at that possibility when Weird Darkness returns. The Lord of the Elements wants to change reality. He's enlisted the evil Zeltan to help him and together they'll try to recruit Stanley, a man gifted with incredible imaginative capabilities to help them. Unless Edward and his friends can stop them, that is.  If you like science fiction, fantasy and horror, you'll love The Last Observer, a magic battle for reality by G. Michael Vasey, narrated by Weird Darkness host Darren Marlar. Hear a free sample of The Last Observer on the audiobooks page at WeirdDarkness.com. We mentioned earlier that the events of September 1944 in Mattoon, Illinois are remarkably similar to those that surrounded the accounts of Spring Healed Jack, who seemingly terrorized residents of Victorian England in the late 1830s, with tentative sightings of the mystery attacker seen right into the early 20th century, although there is debate as to the authenticity and accuracy of some of the later sightings. What did the ideas put forward to explain these mysterious sightings was that Spring Healed Jack may have been another worldly entity, perhaps even an extraterrestrial that had crashed and become trapped on earth. And while there certainly isn't anything concrete to make an extraterrestrial connection to the Mad Gasser incidents, the similarities of the two mysterious cases should at least alert us to the possibility, however unlikely. If not an alien connection, then could it be more of a ghostly or interdimensional connection? Might the apparent gas have been some kind of consequence of such an interdimensional journey? And if this was the case, were these purposeful dimension jumps or were they merely incidental? While all other avenues of exploration have yielded few if any results, then we must consider other possibilities, however speculative they might be. Generally speaking, though, and based on what we know of the Gasser case, it has to be said the possibility of a paranormal connection is remotely unlikely. Like many such mysteries, the identity of the Mad Gasser of Mattoon and their reasons for carrying out such random attacks will likely remain unsolved and unexplained forever. Even if an individual should come forward with claims that they were the person involved or that they knew more details behind the attacks, they would perhaps have a difficult time in persuading people that they were being truthful. Was this nothing more than mass hysteria? It is certainly possible that such a feeling of collective anxiety about a deranged individual spraying people's homes with an unknown and quick working gas would result in sightings that were mistaken. However, the claimed physical consequences of intense illness and partial paralysis are surely something that mass hysteria can't explain in a fully satisfactory way. Was there a military movement, either directly through the coordination of the attacks or indirectly with the suppression of the reports? Or might they have been the work of one, lone individual for reasons known only to them? Whatever might have been behind the attacks and why they happened is truly one of the most perplexing mysteries of all time. Of that, there is surely no doubt, especially if similar events ever begin unfolding in our contemporary era. Whether or not there is a potential connection to a very similar surge of gas attacks in Virginia that began just over a decade earlier in December 1933 and continuing into the opening weeks of 1934, the incidents cannot at all be dismissed when being examined alongside each other. Not only were they similar in terms of how they unfolded, but details such as the sickly sweet odor and the discovery of ladies high-heeled shoes discovered at the scene of many of the apparent victims make the events in Virginia a decade previously impossible to ignore. Outside of the surely remote possibility of a delayed copycat case, the two almost identical wave of attacks stand out like the sores of sore thumbs and, as such, need to be addressed. Was this a case of a top-secret government experiment? Might it have been the work of a lone person who simply packed up their bizarre experiments and then reignited them a decade later in another sleepy and quiet part of the United States? While the motive and speculation and goal in the Virginia attacks is seemingly as unclear as it is in the Matun attacks, the similarities cannot be ignored, and between them, being so relatively close together with regards to the timeline of history as they are, all the suggestions appear to be that there is an important secret to be unveiled in relation to the two mysterious periods in American history. What follows is largely based on recovered newspaper reports and contemporary internet accounts of some of the strangest and most disturbing events to have reared its head. What these events might mean for both American and world history is something that remains very much open to debate today, almost a century after the events took place. The first recorded incident unfolded at around 10 p.m. on December 22, 1933 in the town of Haymarkertown. That evening, Cal Huffman was at home with his family when his wife suddenly began to feel intensely unwell while also claiming she could smell a strange odor. The bizarre odor began to decrease in intensity, and with their children already in bed, Mrs. Huffman decided to turn in for the night in the hope of feeling better in the morning. Cal, on the other hand, decided to remain downstairs, suspecting that someone had unleashed the unpleasant substance into their home as a prank, hoping they would return so he could apprehend them. For 30 minutes, nothing out of the ordinary occurred. That was until a wave of the strange smelling gas seemingly overtook the room once more. Cal immediately made his way outside and straight to the home of his landlord, Mr. Henderson, so that he could use his telephone to report the incidents to the police. Officer Lemon would respond to the report eventually arriving at the Huffman's home shortly before midnight. He'd take further details but was unable to find anything suspicious anywhere outside their house. Thinking that the attacker, whoever it was, would certainly have left following the police presence at the property, the family returned to their beds. However, the evening's strange events were not over yet. At around 1 a.m., a strange and seemingly toxic gas swept through the Huffman house once more. This time, though, the effect was much worse, so much so that one of the Huffman's children, Alice, began to have trouble breathing. A doctor was called to attend the property, Dr. Driver, who would even have to use artificial respiration in order to bring her back around. Despite this, however, she would make a full recovery within a matter of hours. At this stage, Cal and one of his neighbors began to search around the property and even believed they may have seen a man fleeing from the area. Even stranger and especially if we recall the last gas attack in Mattoon on September 13, 1944, they discovered what appeared to be the marking of ladies' high heeled or stiletto shoes. These were discovered directly under the window which is believed the gas entered the home through. They also found another indentation near the porch of the property. That something truly strange had taken place was without doubt. It was two days later on Christmas Eve when another bizarre and disturbing gas attack unfolded. The Hall family, Clarence, his wife and their two small children, had been at a church service and returned home at around 9 p.m. However, they noticed a strange smell upon entering the property which within five minutes was so strong that Clarence attempted to locate the source of the odor. He went from room to room but returned to the rest of the family a short time later, clearly unwell and struggling to maintain his balance. His wife promptly assisted her husband in leaving the house and the apparent toxic odor so that he could breathe the fresh air of the outside environment. In a relatively short time, the effects of the gas had appeared to wear off. The Halls would report the incident to the police who would send officers to the property a short time later. A doctor who also attended the property would note that there was a sweet taste to the still lingering aroma, something that was reported widely in the Mattoon gas attacks a decade later. When officers inspected the property, they discovered a lone nail had been removed from one of the windows, leading them to suspect that this had been done by whoever was behind the attacks in order to fill the property with the mysterious gas. Perhaps even more significant, a neighbor of the Halls would offer that he'd witnessed a strange, dark figure seemingly with a flashlight near the Hall's property shortly before they arrived home. Following the incident, while his family left the neighborhood in order to stay with friends, Clarence and several neighbors patrolled the streets looking for anyone who might have been behind the attacks. Their search, however, would yield no results. Three days later, on the 27th of December, another incident occurred, this time in the Troutville region. Mr. Kelly, who was at home with his mother, noticed a car seemingly driving back and forth outside their home as if looking for something. Shortly after, their home was seemingly sprayed with the mysterious noxious gas. Although one of Kelly's neighbors managed to recall and note down part of the license plate, it wasn't enough to track down a suspect. Just as events would play out a decade later in 1934, the media's reports on the incident were, at times, sensationalized, which combined with a lack of police leads would begin to lead to a collective anxiety spreading throughout the region. This would ultimately lead to local residents patrolling the streets on the lookout for the assailant, and they would do so armed. Eventually, a reward for the capture of the culprit was put up and the attacks even appeared to have ceased as 1933 morphed into 1934. However, a little over a week into the new year, they would begin again. On the evening of January 10, 1934, back in the Haymarket Town region, Homer Hilton would become the latest victim of the mystery gas man of Virginia. On the night in question, at a little after 10 p.m., the Hilton's daughter, who was staying with them while her husband was working out of town, awoke to see her baby. As she did so, however, she heard the sound of people talking outside the property, followed by what appeared to be somebody tampering with the window. She remained where she was, listening for any sounds that might indicate what was happening. However, before she knew what was happening, the room filled with a sickly odor which caused a feeling of numbness to run through her. In spite of this, she grabbed her baby and attempted to flee the apparent toxic gas. Like the other victims, despite the terror she undoubtedly felt, she and her child were ultimately unharmed. However, another incident would unfold on the same night shortly after when a local resident named Mr. Kinsey suffered a similar attack with almost identical temporary consequences. Once more, the attacks appeared to die down again for several days, but they would begin again on the evening of January 16. This time, Mr. Duvall noticed a strange substance which had now been widely publicized through the local media at his home later one evening. This time, as Duvall gave chase to a dark figure he noticed near his home, he witnessed the person step into a parked car which then sped away from the neighborhood. Even more intriguing, when police examined the area near Duvall's home, they once more discovered an imprint which was suggestive of a lady's high-heeled stiletto shoe close to where Duvall claimed the car had been parked waiting for the mystery figure. Three nights later, on January 19, another attack took place when Mrs. Campbell was sitting near one of her windows and she noticed a strange gas entering the property. Within moments, she would begin feeling extremely unwell. Two nights later, on the 21st of January, yet another incident occurred. On this occasion, at a little after 9pm, Mr. and Mrs. Howard Crawford returned home following an event spent with friends. As they were settling down for the evening, Howard suddenly noticed the presence of fumes and would become intensely ill within moments. Once more, the police were unable to find anything of consequence at the scene aside from the crank of a car. Given that getaway cars had been reported in previous incidents, this could have been of importance. The following day, the attacks would seemingly pick up pace. On the evening of January 22, over a distance of approximately two miles and within the timeframe of 60 minutes, three separate houses were attacked. All three of the occupants reported almost identical symptoms. One of them, however, did manage to quickly alert the police, which led to the chase of a dark, shadowy figure that disappeared into the woodlands near the respective property. The following evening, another attack unfolded. This time, Mrs. Hartzell, who along with her family had spent a good deal of the night and early hours of the morning with their neighbors, returning to their home at approximately 4.30am when they entered the property, however, they discovered it was seemingly full of a strange gas. What was particularly strange about this apparent attack was that a pile of wood was discovered against the inside of the front door. According to some researchers, this was likely to prevent the family from escaping the fumes, and if that was the mindset of the attacker, then they must have believed that they were at home when they dispersed the fumes. Not to mention the fact that they must also have been physically inside the Hartzell home at some stage to stack the wood in the first place. By now, the collective anxiety that townsfolk was running into overdrive. It appeared, much like it would in Mattoon a decade later, as if no one was safe from this unknown perpetrator. The armed patrols of the local residents picked up intensity. Some families even decided to stay with friends or relatives at an attempt to shield themselves from becoming the next victim. The local police were also now becoming more concerned if only privately and behind closed doors. It is the belief of many researchers that, to begin with, they believed that the attacks were nothing more than the relatively harmless pranks of bored youngsters. However, with the attacks picking up intensity and the distinct lack of clues or leads, they were now beginning to think that there really was a dangerous menace lurking around the state of Virginia. Following a day of apparent inactivity on the gassers part, the next potential incident unfolded on the evening of 25 January. However, on this particular occasion, it appeared that their attempts failed. Chester Snyder was at home on the night in question when around 9pm their dog suddenly became extremely agitated and began barking. Snyder, who had been in bed, jumped to attention, grabbed his loaded gun and proceeded to make his way to his front door. Upon going outside, he saw a figure that appeared to be crossing a ditch that was a matter of yards from his property. Already hyper-alert to the bizarre goings on of recent weeks in the town, he didn't hesitate to raise his weapon in fire. The shot, though, appeared to have been wide of the mark. Needing to return inside for more ammunition, by the time he had returned to his yard, the dark figure had vanished. He'd still make a report to the police, though. When officers arrived to take an official statement and to examine the surrounding area of the property, they would make some telling discoveries. For example, there were distinct footprints that led from the road to the ditch where Snyder had shot at the witness. Perhaps even more alarming were the tracks that led from the ditch to the house, but then stopped again. Is it the person who made them had abandoned an approach to the house? What's more, judging from the state of the ground, whoever had been there had paused beneath one of the trees to maintain a vigil of sorts of the Snyder property before the family's dog had become alert to their presence. Of even more interest, when those who had spent the evening at the Snyder home earlier that evening were interviewed, they all recalled seeing a strange man down the road from the house as they left. Whether or not this was the person who Snyder shot at and if they were indeed the gas attacker remains open to debate. Following another few days' respite, the attacks would continue. On the evening of January 28th, another attack commenced, and this time it was seemingly successful. And not only that, but the incident would suggest more than one attacker. On the night in question, Ed Stanley, his wife and three other adult friends were in the property when they suddenly noticed the presence of a strange gas-like odor. While each of them began to feel unwell, they managed to make their way outside the property. When they did so, they claimed to have seen four dark figures running away from the home. They were, according to witnesses, heading toward the Blue Ridge Mountains. Stanley immediately rushed back inside to retrieve his shotgun. However, by the time he had done so, none of the figures were in sight. He would though claim he'd clearly hear them speaking in the surrounding woodland. According to reports, two nights later, on the 30th of January, Ed Stanley's home was approached again with an apparent attack planned. This time however, alerted to the possibility of such events, Stanley made his way outside as soon as he heard activity outside his home. It's unclear what he witnessed or what action was taken as newspaper reports seemingly omit these details. It must be presumed that he interrupted the attacker or attackers. Following two more days of no activity, what's regarded as the last, at least officially, gas attack of Virginia took place. The mad gasser wasn't done quite yet in Virginia. He or she had one last attack planned. Up next on Weird Darkness. On the evening of February 3rd, what is largely regarded as the last gas attack of Virginia unfolded. That evening, Mr. and Mrs. Skaggs along with five adult friends all became decisively ill following the apparent unleashing of the sickly sweet substance in the Skaggs' home. In fact, upon investigating the incident, Sheriff Williamson would state to the local press that no amount of imagination in the world would make people as ill as the Skaggs and their guests were. In short, unlike the police force of Mattoon, who very much appeared to distance themselves from the gas attacks in their town a decade later, Williamson was very much stating that something disturbing and out of the ordinary had taken place that evening and had been so across the region for almost six weeks. What's more, on this occasion, there appeared to be hallucinogenic effects on at least one of the people present in the Skaggs' home that evening. The Skaggs' nephew apparently began to believe he was trapped in the house shortly after the gas was noticed. Was this a case of panic or had something a lot more reactive had been introduced into the unknown mixture? Perhaps also of interest was the reaction of the family's pet dog who was still seemingly agitated from the exposure to the strange substance the following day. Although reports of similar attacks would persist for another week, the interests in the events seemed to suddenly decline. Between them, the police and the local media, interestingly or not, appeared to suddenly distance themselves from the strange goings-on of the last two months. Although the February 3rd attack on the Skaggs' home is considered the last official gas attack of the Virginia Wave, other incidents occurred afterward that are very likely the work of the same person or group. Perhaps the very last case would be that of Mr. Schaefer, who claimed his property came under attack of the Mystery Gasser on the evening of February 9th. After hearing suspicious activity outside his home late in the evening, Mr. Schaefer went outside to investigate. Upon seeing signs of disturbed snow outside his property, Mr. Schaefer would pick up some of the snow that was outside and found that it had a sickly sweet aroma to it, much like the aroma that had been reported in many of the previous encounters. When the substance was analyzed, several of the chemicals were common in insecticide sprays. When local police investigated the report, they would discover footprints in the snow that led from the porch where the sample was taken from that led to a barn on the property. However, the footprints would mysteriously vanish upon reaching the barn. This is perhaps the only paranormal connection to the Virginia gas attacks. There was another discovery made by police, however. Like in many of the other encounters, shoe prints suggestive of a woman's high-heeled shoe were discovered leading from the yard to the road that ran alongside the property. There were several more sporadic attacks reported, but for all intents and purposes, the gas attacks in Virginia suddenly stopped. However, there were still many unanswered questions. The details of the gas attacks in Virginia between late 1933 and early 1934 surely contained too many similar details to not be potentially connected. But what might those connections be? And what might they mean? Might the same person or persons that were responsible for the bizarre and unnerving gas attacks in Virginia have suddenly revived their morose experiment decade later in the American Midwest of Mattoon, Illinois? And if so, what were the reasons behind a decade of delays, not to mention the reason for the attacks in the first place? It is perhaps also interesting to note that following the attacks there was a notion put forward and to varying degrees accepted that the attacks were nothing more than faulty chimney flus and essentially mass hysteria. As we might imagine though, many people, especially those who had experienced them directly or been involved in the investigations of them, found this explanation hard to swallow, if not preposterous. There were simply too many factors that defied such explanations as mass hysteria or even faulty chimney flus. For example, the attacks all took place at approximately the same time, usually between 9 and 10 pm, but sometimes as late as midnight. Never before this time though and never after, and of course we cannot dismiss the sightings of the fleeing figure or at least on one occasion multiple figures from many of the respective properties. There are surely then too many coincidences to not at least contemplate a connection between the cases. Perhaps one individual in 1944 read about the exploits of someone in Virginia a decade earlier and simply emulated them. It is certainly not beyond the realms of possibility, however, that explanation perhaps feels a little too simplistic. In short, the attacks in Virginia in 1933 and early 1934 only make both themselves and the attacks in Mattoon in 1944 all the more intriguing and perplexing. Thanks for listening. If you like the show, please share it with someone you know who loves the paranormal or strange stories, true crime, monsters or unsolved mysteries like you do. You can email me anytime with your questions or comments at Darren at WeirdDarkness.com. Darren is D-A-R-R-E-N. And you can find me on Facebook, Twitter, Instagram, Minds, Miwi and the show's Weirdos Facebook group on the Contact social page at WeirdDarkness.com. Also on the website, if you have a true paranormal or creepy tale to tell, click on Tell Your Story. All stories in Weird Darkness are purported to be true unless stated otherwise and you can find source links or links to the authors in the show notes. The Mad Gasser of Mattoon was researched and written by Marcus Louth for UFO Insight. Weird Darkness is a production of Marlar House Productions. And now that we're coming out of the dark, I'll leave you with a little light. Psalm 119 verse 32, I run in the path of your commands for you have set my heart free. And a final thought by Steven Richards. The most valuable gift you can receive is an honest friend. I'm Darren Marlar. Thanks for joining me in the Weird Darkness. In the film, a man takes $20 from his employer to go on a date, planning to replace the money the next day. But he falls increasingly into more disastrous circumstances and further in need of more money, and it spirals out of control. Join us Friday, February 9th for QuickSand. It's free to watch online and you can chat along with the rest of us weirdos as we watch the movie together. The show begins at 8 p.m. Eastern, 7 p.m. Central, 6 p.m. Mountain, and 5 p.m. Pacific. You can watch a trailer for the film and watch horror hosts and schlocky B-movies anytime, day or night on the Weirdo Watch Party page at WeirdDarkness.com. I want that coat and I'm gonna get it for $2,000 for whatever it takes. 1950s, QuickSand, starring Mickey Rooney and Peter Laurie. You better come and see me or else. Or else what? 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and I've noticed over the time that they don't, all they do is they think, oh, he does this. I do these techniques. I don't have to change it. I don't have to drive for it. And they don't get the reactions they need because they're not putting the effort into it. They're not like, sit, they're not gassing it up is the best examples of it. They're, it's, honestly, they're watering it down.  So Eva, as you're talking about doing self-defense and bringing it and even gassing up beyond sparring, they're not even sparring. It's exactly what you're saying, which is you've got to gas it up to get it to be able to function under stress.