If you want to pump your body and expand your mind, there's only one place to go. Mind pump, mind pump, with your hosts, Sal DeStefano, Adam Schaefer, and Justin Andrews. In this episode of Mind Pump, oh man, I like these guys. We got the opportunity to interview two of our favorite podcasters, Blair Morrison and Ben Alderman. I'll go ahead and say my favorite crossfitters. They're pretty awesome. I'm gonna say that. Yeah, they're up there with Jason Kalippa, another great guy, right? But these two guys, these two guys, very smart, very, very smart trainers, smart coaches, smart businessmen, and great podcasters. We meet a lot of podcasters. You guys are very natural at what they do. They present great information. They've got good interviews. You should check out their podcasts beyond the barbell. But this conversation was great. We talked about training. We talked about the business of crossfit. We talked about personal development. Very intelligent guys. We hit it off right away when we met these guys. Actually, we met them first up at the Spartan races. We were super busy. Didn't think we had time to meet with them. We finally were able to squeeze in an interview and right away, like, we met them like. Oh, and it was great. And we didn't shy away from, like, how we came out about crossfit and everything else. And they just are very growth-minded. They have lots of integrity. And I just enjoyed, you know, talking with them all about it. Well, this is something that keeps happening to us as we continue to meet some of the upper echelon of the crossfit world. And just impressive. Right. You start meeting these guys that have been around. Since the beginning, they have an incredible pedigree. And when you meet them, the things that we've been saying about crossfit, they 100% agree. I mean, that was the difference between the two of us is we just chose a different path where they chose to dive into the field and try and make it for the better, which is why I love talking to guys like this, like the Rob Wolves, like the Jason Calipas. They see the problems with it and they're trying to address it because they love the sport. Now, was it Ben that shared Maps Prime on his Insta story? Was it? I think it was Ben. So we also had a great conversation afterwards about Maps programming. And of course, the Maps program is very different from CrossFit-type programming. But then we talked about Maps Prime and Prime Pro and they both were quite impressed.  They both come with self-assessment tools. They're both correctional in nature. They can teach you how to individualize what you do before your workout, so that your body fires better. But they also can help you address potential issues in your shoulders, your shoulder blades, your neck, your spine, your hips, your ankles, your feet. And with correctional exercises, get your body to move better. Now we've combined Maps Prime and Maps Prime Pro into a bundle, so it discounts the programs. And they work with any training program, whether you follow Maps or your bodybuild or you do CrossFit or you run or do sports or whatever, the Maps Prime bundle will help you regardless. Now you can find that at mindpumpmedia.com. And if you want more information on the gentleman you're about to listen to us interview, their podcast is called Beyond the Barbell, great podcast. Their website is btbpodcast.com and their Instagram page is at btbpodcast. So without any further ado, here we are interviewing the hosts of Beyond the Barbell, Blair Morrison and Ben Alderman. What got you guys into the fitness industry as a whole? Was it CrossFit? Is that how you guys got introduced into this industry or was it something else? Not me, not me, no, I was doing weightlifting and all kinds of stuff way before CrossFit. Like Olympic weightlifting? Well, no, I always call weightlifting. I had always grown up like lifting, you know, dumbbell curls. Yeah, yeah, yeah, moving weight. Yeah, exactly, just moving weight. I mean, I was 12 or 13 years old and a contractor was staying at my house because we had a big involved project pretty far from his house. And he also was a family friend. He came through and he was like, hey, I brought some weights too if you want to work out. And he kind of showed me how to work out and I just gravitated towards it. Of course I played sports growing up in high school, you know, played soccer. Some people make fun of me, so it's not real sport, but you know. It's a real sport. Most of all, I played too and I make fun of it. Yeah, exactly, right? And then when I went to college, I wasn't good at college, so I just went back into the weight room and started lifting weights, you know, bodybuilding, reading flex magazine, paid for my own trip to go to the Mr. Olympia and watch it. Oh, how old were you? All right. 20? Okay. Yeah, 20 years old. So who was up for that? Who was up for that? Ronnie Coleman. Oh, that was Ronnie Coleman. Yeah, yeah. Did you, when you first saw your first, I don't remember the first time I saw a pro bodybuilder in person. It was surreal. Not because I was this huge fanboy, although I was, I was definitely a fan, but to see someone that distorted in person, it looks really different. I'll describe it a different way. I used to watch Bruce Lee movies too, and I would think, like after watching one or two Bruce Lee movies, I was like, oh, I got this. You know what I mean? Like, maybe. You used to throw a kiss. Yeah, exactly. So I was like reading flex magazine, muscle and fitness, you know, whatever muscle development.  We're like in a Titus t-shirt and whatever. Dude, that's so that. So the 20 year old version of probably all of us, right?  I don't think I was even 200 pounds yet, you know what I mean? And I was still 5'10, I was not big, you know? But I thought I was, and I got to Miss Olympia, and it wasn't the show. It was the, the. Expo or whatever. Expo, thank you.  Can we talk about what is that, what is that about us as boys? I think probably all of us in this room can agree to this. I went through a wife, beat her face. Like that's, like, I just wore. Wear on them. Yeah, I wore, yeah, not literally a beating wife. Don't we mean the shirt? It's a rib tank top. Yeah, a rib tank top. That's all I wore and I actually, because I had been lifting weights for a couple of years, because I'd never seen my body like that. So you think that you're way more jacked than what you really are. And then you look back. It's embarrassing. It is embarrassing. I think back because I remember, I remember the mindset I had putting it on and walking around. Oh, I thought I had awesome guns. Yes. Yeah, like everywhere. What is it that distorts us from it like that? You know, I don't know. Is that ego maybe? I have no idea. We're just building an ego. Then you get an ego check. Did everybody do it? I'm not alone on that, right? Yeah, I totally did. I mean, I just admitted it. I can't hide from that one.  I think I walked half a mile from my hotel down to wherever it was at. I can't remember Mandalay Bay at the time. And I'm just like, okay, you're giving up free t-shirts. I'll take a double XL, right? And just pretending it's all I have, I guess. Cover up everything. Because I really don't have anything to show off. For me, I never went through that because I was always small. Like I knew I was small. I was like this, I was five foot five, 105 pounds in my freshman year of high school. And all I wanted to do was play football and baseball. And so like for me, working out was about like getting on the field and like trying to get bigger. But I never, I didn't feel like good about like the way I was put together until I was playing college football. Like my junior, senior year. Like it took me until I was 21, 22 years old. So wait a sec, you were that small of a guy. You made it all the way to college football. Yeah.  So you had some work ethic. But I was a receiver. Yeah, I was a receiver. I was, and I played football at Princeton. So it wasn't like going to Florida State. I couldn't have gone to like a 1A school like that. But I never felt like I was huge and jacked. I always felt like I was skinny. Always felt like I was skinny until I was like 21 or 22. And I was weighing, you know. So you don't feel like you're skinny anymore? Well, it depends who I'm standing next to. Well, to answer your question, I probably wouldn't walk outside in a wife beater right now. Yeah, okay. Well, we talk about this on the show a lot because a lot of what motivated all of us when we were young were insecurities. In fact, in my experience, the more people that I find in this profession, the more insecurities I see. Like I feel we have, but it's fascinating that, you know, we are the health and fitness leaders and we're the ones motivating all these other people that are inspired to get in shape and better themselves. Meanwhile, I continue to meet a lot of people in those leadership roles that still struggle with a lot of those insecurities themselves because a lot of us were so heavily motivated by that when we were young. That's what got us to this level, right? Because as a kid, keep trying to figure it out. Most of us didn't quit like a lot of other people did when they were growing these goals because those insecurities were so strong in us. Like I remember being such a skinny kid and being made fun of it and not liking it in the way I felt and then working out and then starting to see my body change.  In fact, it wasn't until my 30s did I really start to connect those dots and started to have a different relationship with exercise and myself and self-image. Like it took a long time to work.  Like I used to, I would make these shakes. Like I would buy, we're talking years ago now. So over 20 years ago, I'd buy like the Mega Mass 4000 or whatever the shakes. You know the ones that came in, do you guys remember this? They come in the big bucket. So it looks like a paint, a pail of paint, but it's not. It's just powder. Like sand shoveled. And then you'd look at it and it'd be 4,000 calories per serving.  If I take one of these every day, I'm gonna get massive. And I'd buy this big thing thinking like this is gonna last me at least like a month. But you realize there's like four servings in there. That's how they give you 4,000 calories. And it would be this huge scoop. And I'd put it in my, I must have broke two blenders with these things. They put it in there and I'd add peanut butter and I'd add eggs. And then it's concrete. It'd be like cake batter. Like bull. That's the sound that the blender would make. And then I'd sit there and pound it. And it was- Hips your stomach like a brick. It was like a job, dude. Like I'm sitting there like plugging my nose. Caught you know, I'm breathing like. Yeah. Gotta get it down, man. And you know, try not to get my, like have my mom see what's going on. Cause when she sees it, I was like, what are you doing over there?  And like, no, no, no, I'm fine. You know, puke in just to try and get bigger. Just horrible. And of course a lot of the information that we got back then was just, it's still. Right.  So what made the, how did you guys make the transition then to CrossFit? Cause you were doing the traditional bodybuilding type workouts. You were in college sports. Yeah. How did you go? For me, I would come back. One of the first CrossFit affiliates up in our part of the part of the country in, you know, Northern California was the place that I trained in the off season for, for football. And it was actually my high school football coach. He opened this business called sports specific training and it was, he was trying to target young athletes and he would, he had his whole model, right? Which was not just CrossFit. CrossFit was the conditioning piece, but then he did Olympic weightlifting and we did plyometrics and speed and agility. And it was this hour and a half long program. And then at the end of it, we would do a workout like fight on bad or Cindy or these CrossFit benchmarks that all had names. And he thought that was really cool. So I had, I had exposure to it back like in 2002. Oh wow. Really early on. Yeah. Really early on. That's when the competitions were like a parking lot. That's, yeah, that's, I got exposed to it. They didn't even have. It was just meetups, man. And guys would meet up and then they would, they would work out in the parking lot. It was really, really not what it is now. So then I went through and I would just do them. And I was like, oh, this is cool. And when I became a personal trainer after I graduated college in around 2000 so I started personal training in 2006 in Washington, DC. I was, I was using these old, I had this laminated eight and a half by 11 sheet of paper that all these names like Angie, Barbara, Cindy, Grace, all these old CrossFit benchmark workouts. They're not girls. Your girlfriend finds it. Who are these? And that's a wad. What do you mean you wad? You wadded on them? You wadded.  And I was using them for my clients because they mean these workouts all take 30 minutes or less but people are just really, they have to work hard. Like you can't, you can't avoid intensity. You're wrecked afterwards.  You kind of have to trick them into it sometimes. And like this was, it was working for me. So I was using them and I was, I was doing the workouts sporadically. I was like periodizing my, my training. I would go through like a six week, six week power cycle, a 12 week body, like hypertrophy cycle. And then I'd go like six weeks CrossFit. And I just kind of, I was geeking out on all like the programming angles of it. And then at some point I found competitions. It was like 2007, 2008. I went to a regional competition in the mid-Atlantic region where I was. And I was like, wow, I'm really good at this compared to these other people, right? This is like before people were doing this all day long. He was like, right then I was like, CrossFit games. Awesome. Let's go give it a try. And it just suited my, like my natural genetic predisposition for, for fitness is like great engine, aerobic capacity. I was going to say, did you have like just a big motor in comparison to everybody else? I had a big motor, this is like 2009, right Blair? Yeah, it was 2008, 2009 game season. So I was, I had a big engine. I could always run. I was a receiver in college. So like all the running stuff came easy for me. I had Olympic lifting background from my high school football coach. And like it was a great strength and conditioning coach.  So like all the skills that really, all the only thing I didn't have was the gymnastics. I didn't know how to do muscle ups and stuff like that, but nobody else did either. So I went and did this competition that year. I did really well. I took seventh in the world. And I'm like, this is awesome. You know what? Who won that year? Miko Salo, the guy from Finland. Just cyborg, unbelievable. So after that, I just started doing CrossFit. I was like, okay, I don't really want to get any bigger. You know, I felt good about where I was like stature wise. Like I kind of come into my own like I was telling you guys before. And this is just more fun. Like it was way more creative. I didn't have to like adhere to the, you know, the back and buys chest and tries like that whole, like it's just so monotonous. And I was, I was just kind of done with it. So for me, the, like attacking the whole body every other day was like a better, a better plan for me to like stay motivated to work out. And then I'll talk to you guys about this later, but I was, I was doing them outside. Like I was working out without a gym. And so that was like really motivating to me too. That's really where I transitioned to full time CrossFit. It was the competitive angle that got me kind of into the Kool-Aid community.  Like trying to, trying to look tough. We're in school. Everybody had a fliction t-shirts on. And like, it was just like, it's not. I was like, you guys are exercising. Like what's the big deal? Now at this point, cause you guys, cause you're both successful entrepreneurs. You're both on boxes. And at this point, are you looking at it? And is any of this entrepreneurial mind coming out and looking at this and going, holy shit, this is like a culture that's developing here. Or are you totally oblivious at this point to that? To the culture that's developing? No, meaning, meaning, meaning are you looking at going like, we should start a CrossFit box at this point? Or are you only thinking like an athlete right now? No, I was only thinking like an athlete. Yeah. Cause hindsight's 2020, right?  Everybody's using the same language. Like this could be massive. Yeah. No, I was not thinking about it at that point. I mean, there were more gyms at that point, you know, there was people were representing boxes and things like that, but it was still, it was very renegade, you know? Like we were out in aromas, like in the dirt and like there was people out there with their campers. And like I said, it was very tattoo heavy, very affliction T-shirt heavy. Like everybody was trying to look hard, you know? Everybody wore shirts that had like, like just full F bombs on them and everything.  Yeah. They're just learning to read. Like what is that? It did not. At that point, it did not appear sustainable, like for growth. It just appeared like, okay, this is like the fringe community that it's cool to be a part of. Yeah, that's what I thought. And this is very important to know because at this time, this is when, you know, I'm, I have a personal training studio at this time when this was happening. I had left the corporate fitness when I managed gyms and I'm familiar with CrossFit close by Santa Cruz, I think was the birthplace of it. And, but it was that fringe community that represented it at the time. So I'd see like this clown throwing up, you know, like this, this unofficial mascot. And, you know, I looked at all of a sudden like, this is crazy. Like this is insane, but it makes sense. That's how a lot of movements start. They start with that fringe and then it goes a little more mainstream. Yeah, what made me basically kind of commit to it or transition into kind of believing in it as a culture was when I went to that competition in 2009 at the CrossFit Games and I'm in the barn with the other athletes and the dudes are not like that. The guys that were the best at it and the girls that were the best at it were not like that. We're real athletes. They were real athletes, you know? And they were like smart. And like, you know, you could see all the seeds of what CrossFit is now were there, but the fans and like the people that were around it and it just wasn't, it wasn't like fully permeated yet but the people that were the best, they were like the best minds, like the James Fitzgeralds, the Rob Wolves, like these guys, they were all there. Like they were there that weekend, Chris Bieler, Matt Chan, like they were all there. These guys are like really smart, intelligent. They know about nutrition. They know about periodization.  All these things, it was there. And so when I got to see that face to face, I'm like, oh, this isn't just like the group of people ripping off their shirt in the gym trying to be noticed for working hard. Like these guys are actually legit athletes and they know their stuff. So at that point when I met them, met the people there at Aromas that year, I was like, okay, I can get with this. I can get with this because these people are about more than just the show. That's a really interesting perspective to hear somebody who stayed all the way through. Cause we all, I was around it around the same time, a good buddy of mine. I think I mentioned to you guys before with Austin Begeving. So he's a good buddy of mine. Jason Kalipa, I watched him in the parking lots at Milpitas CrossFit back in the days when Austin was running that and my other buddy Neil Maddox, him and I worked at 24 together for a long time. So I was watching these guys. I had tried it myself and I was just like, at that time it was just too crazy. I was like, man, this is too much. I can't do what I'm doing the rest of the day and try and work out was way too intense. And I was turned off by it and it was growing. And I remember Austin always coming to me and trying to convince me on the methodology behind it. And I'm just like, nah, you're not gonna convince me that this is ideal for either myself or whatever. Like, and I'm not interested in training to be an athlete at this time. And I right away made the separation of it being a sport. Like I saw, and it still impresses me. And when I see it, I mean, these guys are athletes. They have a hundred percent are athletes. The ones, especially when you watch the games.   It takes an athlete to be at that level. And that's kind of how I've always explained it to people as, you know, it's this, it's like a sport. And you absolutely, if you're passionate about it, you love doing it. Like it's incredible. But, you know, with that comes with that, just like in other sport, like there's a lot of pitfalls that you can have from playing a sport for years and years and years. And if you don't really understand programming and recovery and taking care of your body and periodization, all those things like, boy, real quick, you'll find. Well, I will say this. It seems to me, and you guys can correct me, this is obviously your world, but it seems to me like their approach, the CrossFit approach, or what I mean by that is the people that follow it, there are a lot of intelligent people. Like more so than you would see in other, you know, factions of fitness. And what I mean by that is when I talk to people who are really engulfed in the community, they're more, they tend to be more knowledgeable about things like nutrition, recovery. They tend to be more into the cutting edge type of stuff. It's almost like it's bred into that culture because that's kind of how it started. Am I wrong or is that sound inaccurate? Yeah, I think that there's also, because there's a lot of authorities from other fields, kind of jumping into CrossFit and helping out because there's a lot of people doing it, right? So an endurance coach has a lot of financial reasons to get in and become a voice, right? A nutritionist has a lot of reason to come in there and be a voice. And so with CrossFitters, we love to consume content. Specifically, we like to talk about CrossFit. And so we end up hearing all these different things all the time. On top of that, our certification or certificate we hold includes, you know, sections on nutrition, holds mobility and, you know, we have all those different things and proper movement patterns and all that. So I think there's a lot of the structure behind it. There are just, there's an intelligent design behind the entire movement. Now, what are you guys seeing now as box owners with so many that open up and competitors nearby and stuff like that? What are the good, the bad, or what are you guys seeing happening? Yeah, it feels like watching it like a lot of people jumped in when it started to really grow fast, but a lot of those people now are failing. And the proximity of the gyms, you know, so close by to each other. Like, do you feel like maybe that helped or hindered a bit? Well, Blair and I, we talk about this a lot because the fact that we both own multiple locations and because there's in our area, probably similar to this area, there's a lot of gyms, but that number is slowly going down, you know. It really is, at least in our area, we're seeing opportunities to buy other gyms, pop up, and then even opportunities just to not buy them and let those gyms kind of fall by the wayside, also pop up. And I think that's actually natural with as many people as they're jumping in early on. What is making them fail? A bunch of stuff, lack of business sense, lack of coaching. What's most common? Like, what do you guys see the most of? Lack of members is the main reason. So like, it's just not enough people do that want to do CrossFit for the number of gyms that are there. I think there's a big complaint from the very beginning that CrossFit headquarters, like the certifying body, the main brain of it all, didn't provide any quality control, right? They didn't restrict the radius that each gym controlled. You could open up a gym right next door to another CrossFit affiliate. You didn't have to do any specified programming. The only thing that you needed was the certificate, the level one seminar, and then you were qualified to open and run a gym. So on the one hand it was like, well, dude, you're not protecting your product at all, but Glassman said, hey man, the cream will rise to the top. And that's what's happening now, is that you have people that, it's a very low barrier to entry to open a CrossFit gym, right? You don't need much. And it's a little more expensive now, but like for a lot of people, you could open a gym for like 15, 20 grand, like, cause the space doesn't have to be air conditioned. Like there's a lot of things that are easy about opening a gym. So Glassman, if I'm not mistaken, he's a libertarian, right? Or anarcho-capitalist or something like that, or he believes like in the free market. So it makes sense that he's like, no, you go in, if you wanna open one next door to another guy, you have to be better to win, to succeed. And if you're not, you're just fail. It's the same thing as a sport, right? You have to go in there and do the same exact workout and whoever's better is gonna win. Everybody else will? Now the plus side of that, and just from the outside, the plus side of that is you're gonna get a very quickly evolving culture and brand, which we've seen. We've seen it evolve very, very, very quickly and grow very quickly.  It'll probably actually follow more of the 80-20 rule. Yeah, exactly. It's not 10 and 10, it's probably more like 10 and 50. 10 and 50, but because they're all under that name, it can do that definitely. And we saw that not that long ago, right? We have these videos posted of people doing just horrible exercises and all this other stuff and it gets lumped all into that same category. And my experience with some of the boxes around my facility at the time was just that, as I couldn't believe some of the stuff they were doing and I did not know how it worked, how it was an affiliate and it wasn't necessarily a franchise or anything else. But now that I know this or as I learn this and I can see what's going on, you can definitely see the evolution. Well, the delineation that Adam made early on between it being a sport and like a fitness program, a lot of people didn't get that. Even affiliate owners didn't get that. Owners didn't get that. They thought that they were actually creating CrossFit Games athletes. And in reality, what they didn't realize was they're just helping people get more fit or they're hurting them, right? And so the competitors need to do something different. And so when you see somebody's form break down out on the workout floor, like on the competition floor, they're making a conscious choice to do that not because they're trying to get more fit but because they're trying to win. They're trying to win, right? Like Michael Jordan playing with the flu, right? Like he didn't do that because he's healthy. Right, that's a great point. He did that because he's trying to win, right? So when you're in the gym or you're like Blair and I and you're a coach and you have somebody's form start to break down, that's our opportunity to go over there, prove that we know what we're talking about, make the hard call and go, hey, you know what? You might need to take a break or you might need to switch exercises or maybe that's too heavy for you or all the other different things you can do or do you just not understand the movement, right? And that's why you guys are successful. Well, we used to say in the gym business, we used to say there's no such thing as bad clubs, only bad leaders. And I think that's what you guys are probably going through and seeing right now. What are some of the things like, that's a great point I think that that's obviously a strength of a good leader in the facility. What are the things that you guys that have made you successful and that you think is important to have in the facility and where are a lot of people missing? That's a great question because I think different people do it different ways. My experience, so I had a lot of experience visiting CrossFit gyms before I opened mine. I was over, I was in Europe for a year doing a master's program and I basically was just a guest at all these different locations. I lived on the East Coast, so my experience was, I knew exactly what I wanted my gym to be and what I wanted it not to be. Like I did not want it to be just like a warehouse, four walls, the standard box. So I wanted to separate myself on facilities. I wanted to separate myself on programming and I wanted to separate myself on coaching. So those were the three pillars that I thought were gonna be important. Now, was that because you saw that opportunity? Yeah. A lot of people were missing in those areas. Yeah. Well, the one thing that every CrossFit gym has is community, like CrossFit nails community. Better than anybody I've ever seen in business. They nail it. The main reason why they won. Right, exactly. So I was like, okay, the community, it's gonna be there because of this shared suffering that the workout creates. What are the, that's gonna be there. So what are the other control walls that I can use to separate myself? So facilities, I tried to open my gym in retail locations with windows that have light. So it's a little different, right? Looks a little nicer. There's insulation in the walls. So when we don't have air conditioning, it's not gonna be hotter than outside. It's gonna be 10 degrees cooler than outside. The programming, that's like a passion for me personally. Like I like the outdoors, different type of creative programming. I like to think that I have a skill for that, but every gym has its own identity based on the programming of the head coach or the owner. So you're gonna have your individuality, whichever direction you go. I don't think there's a right or a wrong way to skew that. You just gotta kind of know where your niche is gonna be within the crossfit. The last one, the coaching, this has borne out as being by far, in my opinion, the most important separator between successful gyms and failing gyms. Not only do you need to know what you're, and you guys know this from being personal trainers, like yeah, you need to know the information. That's important. Product knowledge is important, right? Relaying that information to someone is equally important. If you have it all in there and you can't get it across to them, like what good is it, right? But the third piece, I think, is like an ability to make that person feel that you care about them, about their interests, their well-being. So you have the knowledge, you can get it across, but you also get it across in a way that they feel cared for. All the gyms that are successful that I know of have that in their coaches. That's the biggest thing. This is something that is relatively unique to fitness in the sense that we ran these big boxes for 24-hour fitness for a while and I grand opened some clubs and I remember when they started making a shift from understanding that to starting to just look at sheer numbers. Like okay, if we sell our memberships for this cost, this many people will join. We don't need to do a tour. We don't need to invest in personal training like we have been. It's just we have the clubs, we have the equipment, people will come, people will buy. Fitness doesn't work that way. It never has. And you see this with so many trends. I remember when curves exploded. Curves exploded because it was reaching a demographic that no gyms were able to penetrate. You know, these kinds of insecure women who may be overweight or whatever worked out in a gym. They started succeeding.  I go in there, it's gonna succeed because it doesn't work that way. The culture makes the gym. Culture is everything. It is everything. It's the reason why I could, when I run gyms, I'd walk in and within a week, I'd hit 50% more revenue. Within a week, same staff and everything. Just change the culture of the gym. And when people don't understand that and think that they're gonna go in open, especially a physical brick and mortar facility and succeed, you got another thing coming, man. You could have the best brand in the world. You walk in and you don't have the culture. It ain't gonna happen. Where does your guys' leadership skills come from? Are you guys self-taught? Did you read? Did you guys just do a lot of different businesses where you had to lead like that? Where does that come from? Ben's a born leader. Oh. He's like, yeah. He answered the question for me. You know, what's really funny is there are certain things where you talk about those insecurities that people have. Yeah. One thing that my parents told me for a long time was that I was a born leader. And I didn't know what that meant when I was eight, 10, 12, 14, and they just kept telling me. And so what I did is I kind of worked to develop that because I didn't think I really lived up to it because I didn't really know what it meant. So whether it be books or taking leadership roles and projects or, you know, in business, just on a regular basis. Like I always try to take the lead even though I've maybe the most illiquid person in the room. I'm cool with that. For me, I feel like a lot of my, the qualities that I try to exude came from being a personal trainer, at least in the fitness industry. Like I wanted, I knew that everybody that I was coming in contact to was not an athlete, right, for the most part. Most of my clients were- Average Jane or Joe. Average Jane or Joe, exactly. So you had to adjust your personality to them to create, to provide what they need, right? So that lesson gets taught to anybody who's a successful personal trainer because in order for you to have a good business, you can't be just you. You have to be who they need you to be, right? So with that comes a lot of humility and open-mindedness and like, you just acceptance. So when I opened my gym, that's what I wanted to have. Like you don't have to adjust to me, I'm going to adjust to you. You can be who you need to be. And then I'm going to bring out the best version of that, right? And that creates trust. So for me, I think my leadership style, at least in this arena, that's where that comes from. And it's a constant like ego check. Like I want, like Ben and how we're talking earlier, you want your athletes or the people that are competing or like trying to get through a workout, you want this toughness from them. You want them to be able to push through, but sometimes they just don't have it. Like I got to swallow that and give them what they need for that day, you know? I think that goes a long way. I think keeping that in mind helps you be the right kind of leader. Yeah, I mean, like there's this, I mean, the apostle Paul said it, it's in the Bible.  And at some point you have to be willing to fill in those things and see what people need you to be. And then you'd be that, right? And in fitness, like you said, we're surrounded by people who have all of these insecurities. There's a lot of opportunity for that. And to create culture and a connection with people and then you connect with the right people, your gym just kind of grows. Can you guys remember when you really made that connection or a time when you didn't do that? You were the opposite way that kind of taught you that lesson? I'm sure I could remember a few times. I mean, I know, I can tell you one example of when it, you have to be that way. You don't even have a choice. It's with your kids, right?  You have to be a different type of parent based on what type of kid they are. Otherwise they're just gonna, you just don't have as much control as you think you do. So I think that there's a couple of times for me where it didn't work, where I tried to be too firm with athletes, right? And you know, you have to, we have to remember in CrossFit, it's not like a college football team or a pro basketball team or you're paying these people to be there. Like that's not the case. They're paying you so that they can be part of this program. So you can't really be like the, the Nick Saban iron fist, you know, like my way or the highway. Like you're gonna get, you're gonna lose members. Not only that, but there's this self-selection process when you have a athletic team that has all been playing for years and now they're here and they're gonna play the sport and they're all, the type of mindset is they're all pretty hardcore. And they're all going to war. They're all going to war. They probably respond to, you know, tough love.  But the average person is not like that. And you're not doing them. I remember specifically when I learned that lesson, I had a client who I trained and she would see me one to two days a week and she would complain that she wouldn't lose weight. And I knew she was eating terribly and all these different things. And I would take it personally. My ego didn't like that. So I actually sat her down and kind of lit her up a little bit, made her cry. And she never came back. And I remember like thinking a week later, why isn't she returning my calls? I remember thinking like, first I was irritated. She didn't return my calls. Well, forget it.  And then I remember thinking like, I have done her, I haven't helped her at all. In fact, when she was in here once or twice a week, she was doing, she was better off than now not doing anything. Cause now I've totally alienated her alienated her to fitness completely. So it's a hundred, you're a hundred percent. I totally agree with what you're saying. You have to, you know, no, they're not you. You can't train them the way you think. A hundred percent.  You got to know when your opportunity is to give them that, right? Like so in CrossFit, there's a lot of skills that people can't do, like double unders, jumping, you know, spinning the rope twice under your feet when you jump. It's like a standard. All my members can do that. Yeah, right. That's a standard competitive thing, but it's so frustrating. And so it's like, there are certain days where if you've built up enough equity with a member, I'll sit there and say, okay, well you're going to do a hundred of them and I don't care how long it takes. And like that's the tough love for them. But if I haven't built up that equity with that same member like that week, it's like, yeah, I'm not going to, they're going to like MF me run out of the gym. Like you, maybe they never show up again. So you got to have that, that subtlety to know when to push and when they need to push and when they really just need like a hand on the shoulders. Hey man, it's all right. Let's call it there. Is there certain exercise like that that you know is just going to cause mutiny amongst them? Oh yeah, dude. We program not for the masses because we know it's good for our clients. But at the same time, we program according to what the members say. You know what I mean? Like you know that certain days people aren't going to show up if you get a little too crazy. And so you won't program that day. But maybe you will next week because you've given them a long enough break and you just know it's good for them. I have the perfect example of this. And this is like one of my like soap box things at our gym. So our gym is called CrossFit Anywhere, Anywhere Fit. It's like the idea is, hey, we're going to be, you can do this anywhere. You don't need to be in a gym. We are situated in Folsom, one mile from Folsom Lake. And I did that on purpose because I wanted to be able to swim. I wanted to be able to go out there on a trail. So once a week in the summertime, I program a swim, an open water swim. Okay. And it could be like with kettlebells. It could be just a swim. It's like always different. So it's still varied, but every week, what do you think is the least attended class? Of course. Right? Trying to get people out there in a bathing suit, like at 5.30 in the morning or whatever, like, but I do it and then I try to build up equity all year round so that I can just, I can stand firm. To get your swims.  Stand firm and like not buckle and not let them escape. People just won't show up and that's their prerogative, right? That's their choice. But yes, the answer is yes. There are certain things that people will really push back on. I think in general, crossfitters don't like to run. They think that this is a way I can do cardio without running. So you'll see people not show up on running days. I don't know about you, Ben, but. Well, if I program a hundred meters at my gym, people aren't showing up. That's not a big running. Yeah. We like being strong. Wow. Now. So do a lot of gyms tend to have like things that they're known for? Like, does it come kind of clicky like that? I think there should be, right? I think you actually should have a niche, right? Like you should. Your flavor. Yeah. It's almost like camps for MMA. Like we're producing a fighter that's going into. Blair and I like to go back and forth about why mine's better than his. And it's great. And then every year at the competition, my team sweeps the running events. He dominates the lifting events. Oh, see, that's kind of cool. Yeah. That's kind of. You know, everybody cheers when everybody's doing the running events? Not very much. When you hit the biggest power clean. That's right. Try to out power clean a bear. So how do you guys? OK, how do you how do you guys? I'll just run away. Exactly. I got that survival. But we don't go on the trail either, though. We would never find ourselves out there. We're at the gym with the weights. You guys know that we interviewed while we were up at Spartan race. We interviewed. Yeah, what's his name? Todd Orso. Todd Orso. Yeah, or or or. Todd Orso. Do you remember the video that went viral on YouTube where the guy just got a sack dripping blood? He's just got attacked by a bear. Yeah, I just got attacked by a bear. And you're calm. Yeah, that's him. Yeah, that's we met him up there.  How did he heal up? Does he look all right? He looks totally fine. He looks great. He's got a little bit of this. He lost some function. Cool story, bro. Yeah. He's like he was his tendons hanging out.  Everywhere. So back to the leadership stuff with you guys and your employees, OK? Because your coaches would be considered your employees, right? They work underneath you guys, I imagine. So how much time do you guys spend developing them? Do you like that? What are the struggles? What are the things you enjoy about it? Tell me a little bit about that. For me, part of the that's that's been a little bit of a challenge. And I don't say that because I don't have a good coaching staff. I say that because I've got some pretty qualified people under me. And I think sometimes the hardest thing for me to do is lead qualified capable individuals. Leading leaders is a motherfucker. Yeah, man. It's tough, right? So under me, I've got a guy who, you know, like I've got a guy who's just naturally a great coach, younger. He's aspiring to be a firefighter. So he's got like these other goals. And so trying to keep him motivated in the coaching area, right?  So I just have to continue to help build him up. Like another guy who works with people with spinal cord injuries, right? And he helps develop their bodies and trying to help them either strengthen their body or learn to walk again. And he's almost a physical therapist, right?  And I can go on and on about my coaching staff. So for me to kind of position myself in a place where I'm able to influence them and help them grow is it's tricky, you know? But I kind of, I don't know, I like doing it because I like having the people I'm around be really talented. I just don't like being around. I know a family member who, I feel like he puts himself around people he can pay $5 or $6 an hour. And I say $5 or $6 an hour knowing that minimum wage is actually 10 or something like that because he's paying him cash. And they're so under qualified for any other position that he can just get away with having whoever around. And I don't like that model. Like I'd rather have people around who are like asking for more money or asking for more hours or developing on another side because they have more goals, right? I think that works really well with CrossFit too because I think the average CrossFit gym attendee is like upper middle class. So you're attracting that anyway so providing that quality makes sense. And that's the direction of the fitness industry anyway that the whole huge volume low dollar model is flat. There is no growth there if anything it's dying. Tell me what that does look like. What's the price structure kind of, what does a coach kind of typically make? What's a higher end, lower end? What's average? I know up in our years like between, somewhere between $20 and $30 an hour is probably pretty standard. In your average CrossFit gym somewhere between $150 and $200 a month. Yeah. I remember. So I think that's kind of- I was actually just reflecting on what you're talking about, how you lead your leaders, lead your coaches. And I mean for me kind of similar, I feel like it's almost like they, the coaches select themselves. You do more work screening who's going to be a coach at your gym than you do, at least I do, than I do trying to like build them. So I feel like- Well that means you've done a good job at selecting them. Right. So we do, we have like a standard apprentice period where they get to, they team coach with me or some other- Is that normal? Does everybody do that? Or is that just something you do in your facility? Dude, I have no idea. I know my gym sometimes I do, but then I have another coach who I didn't mention who runs my kids program. And he's just a natural, he's nails. He's got more patience for 50 kids all at once yelling at him than my wife and I have for one of our kids at any second. Like combined, so it's just different. So like that's a coach. I feel like if I'm reading what Blair's saying right, kind of selects himself almost in for that position. I couldn't have trained him for that. I literally could not train you to be my CrossFit kids coach and have 125 kids come through my door on one given day and you deal with all of them. I don't have the capacity to train for that. This question reminds me of a time that I went through and it was about 25 at this time. And I'd already been leading gyms for four or five, leading trainers for four or five years in gyms. And so I was responsible for hiring, firing and all that. And I was trying to refine my own skills about getting better at selecting. And then I also put something together that we didn't really have that wasn't organized with the company at the time. And I kind of created my own 30 day of like onboarding process. And I saw a huge difference in one, the retention of my trainers, the amount of revenue they produced by hands on. It was a lot of work for me. It was a pain in the ass because I had to now take, here's this new person I'm onboarding and doing the one on one stuff for an hour with them.   It does time suck. And it does sometimes happen. But, you know, the one, I did notice a huge, because I track all this stuff and I would see a huge increase when I did do that. I made a big difference to onboard like that. Were you helping them with like how to do fitness stuff or was it more like the other intangible things? It was actually everything, right? That's why I took a good 30 days of hanging with me because I would cover everything from programming to nutrition. I would give every, I would try and cram every bit of knowledge that I had in 30 days. And what I thought made me a better coach, a better trainer. And I tried and I got more organized about like, you know, today we're gonna be all about programming type stuff. And then this day we're all about nutrition and then this day it's all about sales. This day is all about communication and coaching points and mechanics. Like, so I would break it up like that. And man, it made a huge difference on their coaching abilities by giving that versus. Cause then I also had guys who, and girls who I'd find that I would inherit from another club or had been trainers for a long time. So they pretty much got it, you know? And so I would kind of like, I'll just throw them in the system because they could do it. And then I'll train them up along the way. And I managed it and I did fine with that. But I always got more out of the ones that I, cause there's something that happens too with you as a leader and them during that process. You're birthing them into this new facility and this new position. And you become more of like a father figure in a sense when you do that really well. And so the way they would come to me and the way I'd be able to lead them and manage them later became a lot easier because of that time spent. Yeah, I think, yeah, I think you're absolutely right. Definitely the more time you invest in them, the better producer they're going to be. One thing I think I failed at for a lot of years was, I think I was always pretty good at selecting coaches that would deliver the right sort of message in the right tone. Cause that's what I always knew as being the most important quality I was looking for. What I didn't do a great job of is the, the relationship between me and them, like setting really clear expectations of what they're expected to do. Compensation was never an issue. That was always very clear from the beginning cause obviously that's, I mean. The standard. Everybody asked that question. Right, but as far as like the, the relationship between Jim owner and coach, I never, I didn't do a great job of that. You know, I wanted to be, I think in my mind, I wanted to be an equal with them. And then also a boss. And that's something that I've had to learn a lot about just through trial and error and like doing things wrong. I feel that in CrossFit, there are very few gyms that can provide a, like an awesome career for a coach at this point.  The average CrossFit gym can provide, you know, maybe one salary position in addition to the owner, I would say. And if you're doing that, you're asking a lot of that person.  Like it's not happening. So what you have to do in my opinion as an owner is either you go all in on somebody like that and you really make it worth their while, right? Or you look for coaches who are passionate and talented but have other careers to support themselves. They enjoy coaching for, you know, three to five hours a week and they're getting a little extra money, but they're not depending on you to provide a career for them and their family. It's their side hustle. Which has got to be a very hard- That's a tough situation, right? Yeah, it's hard for you guys, I imagine to find that, right? Cause no doubt the perfect, you know, coaches, you know, a version of yourself up and coming, right? Who one day aspires to have his own box or whatever like that. Cause you know he's gonna- I mean, is that the path? Like if somebody wants to make a career in this, is it owning your own? Owning your own? Is that really the only other option to making this a career? Yeah, I mean, I think to be honest, man, the way to make money in fitness is to personal train. Like that's, it's always gonna be that. So if you can be a part-time coach at a CrossFit gym and then build a personal trading business there, like that's the way to do it, I think. But as a CrossFit gym owner, like if someone out there wants to open their own gym, my experience has been that it is more sustainable, long-term to find people that do not want it to be a career. Right, they want, they love coaching for that short amount of time. You're not asking too much of them, they're getting a little extra money on the side and you get the best, their best three hours every week. They don't get drained, they don't get burned out, you know? Now you can't do a straight trade-out, that doesn't work either. You have to pay these people, right? But I don't know, I mean, for me that's the way I was kind of forced to do it because I am in retail space, my rent is higher. I don't have as much free money to like try to support a lot of people. I feel like the natural progression, like if I were to get into it, would be like, you know, I would go work for someone like one of you guys, I would start building, and then I would build my own confidence by building my classes to be just exploding, right? Like to where I have the most people out of anybody else that teaches, I'm always loaded. Right, people are showing up for you. Yeah, people are showing up for me and then I think at that point, I've proven to myself like, okay, like I can draw these people to come see me and now maybe I feel confident and I would open up my own gym. Is that kind of the problem? A lot of people do that. I feel like that happens. I've heard of that happening a few times in LA, you know, and different things, but for us, I mean... I've had two coaches do that. You've had two coaches do that. We've gone on to open up other gyms. There you go. How'd they do? One of them's doing great. He's still owns it. He's in Roseville. He's awesome and like I'm really proud of him. And like we have a good relationship. The other one ended up moving out of town, did something else, went a different direction. What's it look like? You had mentioned you can open a box for between $15,000 to $20,000. Is that the average cost of opening a box or is that more on the lower end? That would... Nowadays it's low. That's low, right? You're basically what you're doing is at that point, you're like, I think what you're doing is, you're saying you love to train and you just want something that kind of pays for you to be able to train, you know? And you can justify spending the money. I don't think anybody's trying to get in. But you gotta remember, people were doing this in their garage. So you'd have like 10, 15 people come into a garage who has a squat rack and a pull-up bar and then they would take that group and open up a gym. So it's like the 15 to 20 grand, that's like the amount of equipment you need to train 10 or 15 people, right? And you can do it. And CrossFit has a great model for that because it's all, it's not expensive equipment. It's bars, it's bumpers, maybe a kettlebell and a rope, some rings. Like it's not a lot of stuff. So you can do that, you could do that. Now you can't because it's not, it's like the early adopter phase is gone. Like CrossFit's out there. It's too competitive now, right? Now it's like, is it more retail? Like now like the look of it and the aesthetic of like the gym itself, like is it starting to look a little more commercialized in the box? Uh, I mean, I think Blair, Mine is, but Blair is more like that, but he has something that, that you still can have in the warehouse space. And that's like the access to the outside and being able to have access to parking lot. Like you can't, you can't open up next to Chipotle, give him meat and start doing. And then use their parking lot. Yeah, farmer carries across their parking lot. Excuse me, excuse me. I didn't think about that, that's a good point. Yeah, so there's a certain amount where the retail side of it, it's gonna, it, you kind of want that. And I see why Blair did that. And I try to, you know, up the aesthetics of my gym, which is in a warehouse, you know, because of situations where I look over at Blair and go, man, he did a good job at that. That's really good. But then I open my roll-up door and I can just walk right outside and foot tires and not worry about cars and, you know, do things like that. For me, when I got into it, it was never about aesthetics. It was always about the quality of the workout. And not that Blair compromised on that at all, but he just had two factors that he took into consideration. I just had one. And it was always like, I'm gonna make sure our workout is top notch. Well, I just noticed, cause like, you know, coming from our commercialized and then I saw that that was sort of like an answer to that, like the counterculture of that in a sense. And I actually, I don't know, what's the timeline with that Jim Jones? You guys remember that Jim Jones? That came out after like 300? I don't know. Like in order, you know, with CrossFit and that, like I just remember- CrossFit was out before that before. Okay. Yeah. Cause that was my first introduction to like unconventional training and like really seeing like somebody build a gym that was like tires and ropes and all that kind of cool shit that I was like already kind of doing in the commercial gym and, you know, sort of making a name for myself that way. But- I'm sure you guys get this question all the time, but if somebody opens up a box, average, what would they invest in? What would they be able to earn off of a box? Once it's like established as a- Yeah. Low end, high end, and then what's realistic for most? I would say high end, probably a million dollars a year, like gross revenue. Wow, that's okay, gross. Gross revenue. Gross, yeah. Low end, I think there's guys that are scraping like a hundred K, gross revenue. It's hard because like in our market, Northern California, like you said, birthplace of CrossFit, Santa Cruz, it's been around the longest. You have the highest saturation of gyms for the lowest number of people, right? You go down to like, to Manhattan, like, I mean, their gross revenue is way more than a million dollars a year. So like, it just depends on where you go. Yeah, this is economics, right?  We're at different places on the curve. But if like, if you're in like, say, like a not saturated market, like, and there's like decent demand for CrossFit, like there's not a lot of competition there and like you can open up a gym.  Yeah, you're a good coach and you have a quality product, you're not hurting everybody. Like I think that it's very reasonable for you to take $30,000 for equipment and your lease and your space and all that. And within a year, I think you could be, I think you could be generating a solid amount of money, maybe for yourself, $3,000 to $4,000 a month profit. That's what they say, $3,000. I think a lot of guys who love fitness, you know, probably like all of us, especially the 10 year old, 10 less year old version of us, like 25 somewhere in there, right? You're super happy with that. Yeah, you're making three grand a month, working for yourself, staying in the gym, you know, hitting the weights or making five grand a month, working for the government. You know what I mean? I'll make that trade all day long, right?  I would think a lot would be popular because I had one of my trainers that went and opened his facility. And I remember what he did was he was building his and at the same time, he was privately training clients there too. So I would assume that would be because you could probably easily pick up another two to $3,000 a month easily just off of some private sessions. If you're that guy that knows how to do that, you don't know the biggest problem with CrossFit in the beginning was it was all the gym owners were like police and firefighters. No trainers. Or ex-militaries, yeah, there's no trainers. Like not that these guys are bad guys, but like they opened up gyms, a lot of them, just so it was cool to work out with their buddies. Like they didn't have any, like coaching, like pedigree at all. And they didn't know how to like do personal training with people that are like, you know, different populations, different demographics. So yeah, if you're a coach that has a coaching background and you know how to personal train someone, absolutely. Now you got no rent. Like what's the biggest cost for a personal trainer at a gym? You gotta give 60% to 24 hours. That's right. Do you do any more personal training? Do you do? Yeah, I do, I mean not that much. I wish I did more, but I have three clients right now. I remember the day I didn't have to do any more personal training and I was so stoked. Cause like even though I love fitness and I love that interaction, that one-on-one interaction, I remember I got a $1,000 check for some of you pre-bought some sessions, right? And we've all gotten those from 24 Hour Fitness and you give it to them and you get this like $16 an hour or whatever process you're training, right? And it's like, here's a thousand bucks and I had it for like two days. I'm always like, why have you not went to the bank? I'm like, cause if I deposit this, it means I have to train them again for like the next three months. You know what I mean? And I literally went back and I gave the check- Oh, give it back. To the lady and I said, hey, I'd love to have you as part of my community. I'd love to have you as part of my gym. I just can't train you anymore. Come on, Ben. I'm dead serious. That's true story.  I would have gone to her and be like, I can't train you, but I have another trainer who can, who's very good. Then I would have gone to that trainer and be like, for 500 bucks. Yeah, right. Exactly. Yeah. I got a great deal for you. Yeah. I know. So I just couldn't do it anymore, but now I do actually have one person I meet with for half an hour a week and I don't charge a thing. So it's just- So I do something similar. I do some online coaching, but it's not because I'm, I need to online coach. It's cause it keeps my finger on the pulse of fitness. You know what I mean? I get to stack, but you guys have gyms.  We're in here all the time.  So- It's not as relatable anymore. Yeah. I do the same thing. I have like just one client like I'll show up in the morning and just going through the process of like a troubleshooting and using new techniques and like stuff you've learned like FRC or something that's just come out. And I want to see, you know, how to apply this in the programming sense. It's like, you have to, you have to- It keeps you sharp. It keeps you sharp. It's like the McDonald's owner going in and doing French fries every once in a while. Like you want to be in there and you know, keep your, again keep your finger on the pulse of it. But I think, you know, fitness is interesting. It's one of those industries where you people enter it because of passion. Very few people go into the fitness industry and think, I'm going to be a millionaire. Like very few people do that. Most people are like, I love working out. Mr. Jilly Michaels. Yeah. I love working out. I love training people. I love fitness. This will be awesome if I can make some money doing what I love. But then you do have some of those people who get in there, do it because of the passion.  I want to build a phenomenal business. And we've been seeing the rise of and really the best opportunity for this is merging the two. You have your brick and mortar, physical, you know, location business or clients, but also working now with the new emerging, you know, side of fitness, which is your social media. And now you're reaching 5,000 or 10,000 people who also value what you have to say. Now you can build a six, seven figure business.   Are you also looking to build in those other ways for your businesses or? I mean, no, I have, me personally, I have a travel business that I do. We once a year, we run like 10 day trips around the world. It's called Anywhere Fit Travel. So that's like a diversification of my business where you take groups of 30 people, we go to Iceland, we go to Greece, go to Thailand, New Zealand. This is awesome. It's like a fitness trip? It's a fitness trip. It's essentially like a waste of a trip to Thailand, if you ask me. That's perfect. It's like you're on vacationing it. No, so it's a fitness trip. The workouts are, the workouts are kind of done on the fly. So say like in Iceland, for example, we were on a bus between waterfalls as one does in Iceland.  We're gonna do a buddy carry to the top of this volcano. Like stuff like that. So the workouts are interwoven into the trip as a way to kind of like make the experience more memorable. So that's a side business that I run. It's actually really clever. Yeah, it's cool, man. Dude, I love it. I look forward to it every year. Did you just start that? Have you been doing that for a while? Been doing it since 2011. So I've done 12 major trips.  So we're in this next June, we're going to Peru. We're gonna do Machu Picchu, of course. We're gonna do Rainbow Mountain. If you, ayahuasca, ayahuasca buddy carries. That's right, ayahuasca buddy carries. First drink this. 10 muscle ups. Do you do this alone or do you have a partner who does it with you? How do you do me? So the idea was born when I was on that, that I was on in Europe for that year doing my master's program. This is how I was working out. I was like, oh, I'm in Europe. I wanna go check out Germany and Italy and France and whatever and like I would still need to train for the CrossFit Games. So I was doing these workouts. During that, during the course of that year, I made friends with a guy named Sven. His name is actually Sven Bjorns, Sven Bjornsson. So if you guys know- Very Swedish, huh? Yeah. So he's Icelandic. All right, Icelandic. He's Icelandic and in Iceland- I would have never guessed. Yeah. They have no surnames. So it's only whoever your father's name is, it's that plus son or plus daughter. So like Sven's dad's name is Sven. So he's Sven, Sven's son, Sven Bjornsson. Anyways, that's interesting aside, but he's my good friend now and he runs these trips with me. So we go out and he does a lot of the logistics. Does the wife come with you or is it just you? The wife comes with me. Oh, wow. Yeah, so it's like paid vacation for us. Oh, that's awesome. We haven't, she hasn't come the last two years because of our kids, but that eventually, that's what I want it to be is, you know, I take, it's cross branded. So our gym, like I said, is CrossFit anywhere. These trips are called anywhere fit travel. So it's the same idea, the same mantra, the same logo as everything is connected that way. And I would love for this to be something that we continue to do as a family. Like when my kids get older, you know, 10, 15 years down the road. So you're like roughing it throughout this or you guys actually like having hotels? No, we do, it depends. So like in a place like Iceland, there's some rough in it because there's just, that's the deal there. You know, but like in Thailand, we were staying in like five star. Oh, there you go. Like all over that trip. Baller. It's only 15 bucks a night or something like that. It's amazing. That's the room in the world, right? Like the way to really make money or like to profit on a trip like that is to go to a place that's more third world because your money just goes so far. So anyways, that's like, that's one way I diversify our business. I don't do a lot of stuff on Instagram. Like I don't know what it is and I feel like I need to get over this, but I look down on people that are Instagram stars. Like I look at them and I'm like, really? Like I guess I was jealous is what it is. I'm like, really you're making like 200K a year for like taking pictures. It's your own ego that makes you frustrated that it's that way. We're all the same generation. How old are you guys? 35. Yeah, so we're all the same generation. So we came up before that. We saw it grow, but we're not too old to where we're super disconnected.  I remember when I- So lame in the making millions. This is a clown. Yeah. When I first started talking, I started met Adam for the first time over the phone we were talking and this is before, this is when we decided we're gonna start a podcast. And he's like, you need to get on Instagram, dude. Like that's what you need to do because I had this program that I developed and I wanted to sell and then I went on Instagram.  Narcissism hell, I'm never gonna get on this. He's like, no, you don't understand. You gotta get in there. This is essential for business and it is. You just have to. You have to. Just to come do it. I'm just not maximizing it at all. I'm on there. Our gym is on there. I have a personal page and it's like, I don't know, I'm not monetizing it. I'm not turning it into a business the way a lot of these other people are. They're taking advantage of it. Ben's much better at social media. It takes time. I remember when I sat down and this was like six, seven years ago before. The first time I ever met, so you guys met Taylor already in here. So Taylor, the story is, God, this is eight years ago. He's only 23 years old and he had built a six figure plus Facebook business. And at this time, Facebook's been around for a while and I had heard of people doing this but I hadn't, I didn't know anybody personally. So at this point, I'm not really diving into it. I haven't met anybody.  I finally met somebody and I was really fascinated by what he did. And he started on Twitter and he had just built this large following of people that have interest in shoes. He's a shoe guy. Long story short, he pivoted that over into a business and made really good money. At that moment I was fascinated with like, wow, this 23 year old kid built a six figure business but I got what he did.  He connected them all. He connected them all by helping them out because they were brokering shoes to each other and he made no money off of it. He just put the people together, which now he became the guy who, hey, if you're looking for a specific shoe, that's the guy to ask. He'll put you in line with the right people. It's always the solids. Bing, bing, boom. And then he's got. It's all she wrote. He's got 10,000 people now that are paying attention to what he's doing and he turned it into, then he made a t-shirt business and sweaters and hoodies and clocks and they all had sneakers on them. Air fresheners was what he made most his money. Like just a smart. He made most of my air fresheners? Off a dollar.  See, I love that. I love that sort of simplicity. So do I. So do I. And that's, I was instantly intrigued by this 23 year old kid who had done this. And at that moment, I remember I was doing something completely different at the time. I'm like, I'm going to do this. Because before that I was never a Facebook social, I didn't have any of it. I didn't care. Like I was, I had a MySpace for a little while when MySpace was started and I was like, I was over because I was already into my 20s and stuff. Is it still out there? Is your MySpace page still on there? Yeah man, it's alive. Is it? Is it really? No. You can search on MySpace page? I didn't know. I didn't even know it's still on. My old band page is still on there somewhere. It's 12 unique bits a month. So I was not into it at all until I had seen that. And then, and I remember he told me, he says, you're going to plug away at this for at least a year. He says at least a year and you're going to hate it and you'll be annoyed by it because you'll feel like you're talking to nobody and it'll feel silly what you're doing. And this and that, he says, but you've got to be consistent. You got to keep plugging away at it. And eventually you'll find your voice. Eventually you'll find your niche of people that want to hear what you have to say and then that's, and you just stick to that. And I bought some e-books too on it, like on how you should be posting and shit, whatever. And it was like, tell me, I'm supposed to post four times a day. So I was posting like four times a day. And one- A lot of shirtless pictures. Yeah, shirtless pictures back then in the bodybuilding days. Romance levels. And then exercise videos. Then I put up controversial post up. So, and it just would slowly add, slowly building, building, building. And even when Justin, before we started Mind Pump, Justin and I created the first nutrition guide. And I thought like once I got like 20,000, like I was like, all right, let's see if this thing makes some money. And we turned it on and it was like, and I said, hey, here's the guide. It's out. Go buy it type of deal. I'm like, hardly any people. Yeah. I think we sold like a few, maybe 20 or 30 that month or whatever like that. So we're like, I got it. Let's just jack the price higher. Yeah. So at that, at that- We sold 30 and $1,000. Thinking about crushing it. Yeah, exactly. So we learned real quick that it was going to take more than that for sure. And so I think that's the part that's, it's kind of frustrating because you won't see any real return from it for a really long time.  It really kind of just speaks to the rest of the show and everything else, what we're doing, right?    It's modern radio. Well, for me, like I didn't develop anywhere fit trips. I wish I did because I think they're really cool as much as I like to make fun of them. You gotta run though, bro. Yeah, I know. You gotta do so much cardio outside the gym. Like why am I gonna go to Thailand and just spend 11 days in the gym, right? You know? But for me, like when I got into CrossFit, I actually got into it in part because of guys like Blair, like literally Blair and other guys like him because in 2009 is when I found CrossFit, right? But I already had my first son at that point. My wife and I were already married. Wasn't as easy for me to kind of travel and kind of do some of the things I saw these guys go into this place or that place. So I would just follow the CrossFit.com page. And back then they'd post workouts and they'd put a picture up of somebody and they'd put below the picture like two notable athletes who had done the workout, right? And their times. So I didn't have to go anywhere, right? I didn't have to go seek out training partners. I didn't have to go travel to some big gym or anything like that. And I would read Blair Morrison, 19 minutes, seven seconds. Right? And I'm like, whoa, I like, who's this guy? I'm gonna try to beat him.  I'm like, oh crap, this guy, right? And then I had a meeting Blair, you know, a couple of years later, maybe I don't even remember exactly when it was. And so I was always kind of tied to the gym, but now social media has given me a little bit of a voice. You know, and I coach my kids because they're old enough now to start lifting. My son loves to lift. I get all kinds of flak for that, but I'm really busy too because I have four kids and three gyms, the podcast, all these other different things. So what I'm trying to do is I'm trying to relate to the other guys out there who have a lot of stuff going on.  And I'm like, I don't think so, man. Like I think that we should reclaim the dad bod just a bit and stop giving ourself a way out. Like we don't think it's cool to like let our kids get away with being like slack in school, right? Or in any other areas of their life.  Yeah, just giving up. It's like, oh yeah, you gotta work hard in sports. You gotta be this kind of student or you gotta be this one. And then it's over. Yeah, exactly. You can coast. What's the classic do what I say, not what I do, right? Right, exactly, right. So you gotta model it. And then at the same time, I have all those same characteristics that being competitive in CrossFit helps satisfy. So I was like trying to stay competitive in CrossFit. So I asked myself crazy questions all the time. I asked myself, if I could only train for an hour a day, could I still be one of the best in the world? Or if I could only train an hour a day, could I finally beat Blair Morrison at a running workout, right? And the answer is usually no, but by asking those crazy questions, I've come up with like a training methodology that allows me to train sometimes as little as like 10 to 20 minutes a day and then stay pretty fit. You know what I mean? I mean, the last six years, I made it to regionals, which is one step below the games, but in California. And I think five of those six years, I was top 10 fitness guys in California. And I don't get to train as much as a lot of people and not as much as a lot of people think I train. So even my competitors, I lay out three, four hours of programming for my in-house competitors. I don't do any of it. Like I do so little of it in the fact. You're on the dadbot program. I'm on the dadbot program. I'm like, literally, I'll just, all right, what am I gonna do here? And I'll just think of something really quick that takes very little warmup, which is kind of limits my movements because I've got a lot of mileage on me. I've been doing this for a while. So if I don't spend a lot of time warming up, right? I can't necessarily get into a great overhead squat or a Olympic lifting positions, right? So I have to change it up and do things that allow me just to- Very smart. Yeah, I've got 15 minutes to work out. Literally, I have 15 minutes or else if I don't get home, my wife's gonna be pissed. Very smart, right? So you got into, what were you doing before then for work? Cause you said you got into this 2009, what were you doing? You were married when you got into CrossFit? Or, oh wow. Yeah, I was married. So what were you doing for work before that? Well, I worked in the gym. Oh, okay. Yeah, I worked in the gym. So I, at 20, I was working for 24 Hour Fitness. Oh, I didn't know you started there. Yeah. Which one? It was in Sacramento. It was at Laguna. Oh, sure. Or yeah, Center Parkway. Yeah, and I just met some young kid, called me yesterday and heard about me from a family friend and said, hey, I wanted to do what you've done. And I'm like, what do you do right now?  I'm like, which one? He's like, Center Parkway in Laguna. I'm like, oh man. I was like, I can help you out with that, you know? And just do what I did and you'll be exactly where I'm at right now. You know? Blue print is there. Just do it in a year rather than 10, you'll be all right. But yeah, that's what I did. And then I got into, I did some construction stuff, not like building things with my hands, just doing some of the office type stuff, estimating and different things. Got into some sales. I sold timeshare actually for about a year in Hawaii, which was interesting. Taught me a lot about communicating with people and overcoming objections and seeing where people are coming from. Most important skill you can teach any business person is how to sell, which is really how to communicate. Absolutely, absolutely. Came back here, leveraged that into a management position at Gold's Gym, which is really not doing much. Did that for a little while and then got into Mixed Martial Arts.  Oh, that would have been humbling, right? That was humbling, yeah. And then changed my training protocol to CrossFit. And now I just had more energy when they were beating me up. So, you know, I stopped fighting. The guys are making fun of me because we have the Conor McGregor cut out inside here. I saw it. Yeah, and I said I wouldn't be afraid of him.  Spoken like somebody who would break you. And I feel like God. Who's never done a day of jiu-jitsu. I learned my lesson. That's how I started jiu-jitsu for six years. I got up to a purple belt. Oh, that's good. But what got me to sign up was I walked in and the instructor was this 160 pound, that very strong Indian dude, ended up becoming one of my good friends and he was a purple belt and I'm a new guy. And I had some judo background. So it wasn't like I was a total beginner. And I'm 200 and at the time 210, maybe 215. And he tapped me out like five times in five minutes.   Show me the ways. Yeah, exactly. So when Adam was saying like, I bet I could, he's not that big.  I've seen it in a sandwich. He could literally read a book while doing it. Yeah. So that would be humbling. Very humbling to let someone with that size difference will ball over you. Yeah, so after all the nicks and bruises I've taken along the way, dadbotathletics.com is born November 1st this year. So coming up, I don't know when this episode releases. And I'll basically be giving people their purple belt and fitness, you know, in 10 or 15 minutes a day. I like that, yeah. I think you're onto something right now.  I like that. So when you guys look at the future of the business, the future of CrossFit and the future of the fitness industry, what do you guys see happening? Actually, I'm pretty excited about it. There was a while there where I wasn't sure what was gonna happen with CrossFit because I could see... Does it feel like it's peaked in its popularity or do you think it's still done? I think it's peaked in its level right now. I don't think it's getting worse. I think... You're like the third person that's told us that who's very privy to the industry. Yeah, so the way I'm looking at it now is we had this great rush of interest and then I think it plateaued. And I think, I don't know if it ever really went down, but you have people that had tried CrossFit and decided it wasn't for them. And there's a lot of negative PR out there as you guys are aware, like there's people getting hurt. And there wasn't a lot coming from CrossFit to combat that saying... Because Glassman, like you said, he is a free market guy through and through. The product is good. It will win out the cream of rice to the top. So that's, I think that's all 100% true. I really believe that Orange Theory built their whole business off of that. Off of the negativity comes across. Absolutely. They definitely did. I literally think their time in the market was, could not be more per... I know everybody, you know, rants and raves and loves the same mechanisms, right? Exactly. It's like they took the best of CrossFit, that what everybody was scared about, all the Olympic lifts and the scared... Removed it. Removed it and said, here you go. And dressed it up a little nicer. Yeah. So I think Orange Theory will expire because they don't have the true magic in CrossFit. Number one is the community, like we said. But there's also very high complexity in the movements and that's like where you require really good coaching and attention. I think that is going to increase popularity again. So I would say in the next five years, CrossFit is gonna become more popular. I don't necessarily think there's gonna be a rush of new gyms opening up. I think that day is done because it's gonna cost a lot more to compete with these established gyms. Do you see a more specialized, like CrossFit gym as far as like some of those, you know, Olympic, like it's more known for just being Olympic lifting versus like, say, your more endurance-based CrossFit gym? I don't think there'll be more specialized gyms than there are now. I think, like Ben was saying, you're gonna have your niche based on what you like to do. I mean, it's almost unavoidable. But what I think is gonna happen is you're gonna have, you have a population that, you have people in their 20s that are aging into their 30s and people in their 30s that are aging into their 40s. And what happens when you age? A, you make more money. B, you start caring more about your longevity, right?  These things become more important to be functional. And when you look at the functional fitness market, CrossFit is at the top. And it's gonna, I think, as we get further away from this negative PR about CrossFit, you know, being damaging, you have better quality gyms that are around, like there's gonna be less and less objections to going that route. Like the money is there, people can afford it. If the quality is there, there's no, in my opinion, there's still not a better way, a more efficient way to get, to maximize your gym experience. The community, the culture, the variety of movement patterns and mobility that CrossFit demands of people. If you have good coaches that are preventing you from overdoing it, like why not? Why not do that? So that's what I see happening. I think Orange Theory, like you said, they filled, they nailed it, man. Like they just nailed it. The stuff that was scary out, they did enough of the same sort of thing, the high-intensity circuit thing that was like making people sweat and like feel like they got to work out it. And they made it a game, you know? They did a great job, but I think what I, when I ask people now, it's like how many people, or what's the longevity of people at Orange Theory? Nobody's there longer than a year. They're not committed long-term. It's still a fad. I think Orange Theory, I agree 100%. I think we're gonna see a huge drop-off. Well, you talk about some of the struggles at CrossFit at the beginning was the lack of good coaches. Orange Theory's that times 10. You're getting very entry-level trainers that are at the facilities there. And it was part of the reason why I- God, it's such a cycle of fitness too, I swear to God. You see that so much. Yeah, it's, you know, and I think if there was a higher level of even coaching there, that the place would do better than members only showing up.  They have this class for one hour. They come in, I'm sure this was happening in CrossFit, right? They come in for their one hour class to get hammered. There's no real emphasis on their mobility and where this person right here has no ankle mobility. This person right here has an asymmetrical shift. This person has forward shoulders, but yet we're all doing this, running on the treadmill as hard as we can, rowing as hard as we can, then going over and doing weights in the weight room in this one hour and then, boom, you're out. And that's all my communication with you as a coach. I remember the first time I was there and I saw the 50 minute, you know, check off point for the coaches. And I looked at it and I like just laughed because I was like, this is hilarious. Like there's actually no real coaching in this. It's like all the things that you need to do, like with the music and with the cueing to run. And I'm going like, if you literally lose, it was literally 50 check offs for a 50 minute class.  Like there's no room for coaching at that speed of a class. So that's where they're going to get blown up. Is that you just, it's inevitable that people are going to get injuries, especially if you're running them on a treadmill. You're just going to, you're going to exaggerate it even faster. If you at least took that out, you get a little bit longer, a life out of them, but just the running on the treadmill combined with all the poor movements and that fast of a pace. And it's just too repetitive, man. Like it's too repetitive. You're going to get bored. What's great about a personal trainer is they can change the workout for you every single day. Like that's what you're paying them for, is their attention to you and their ability to make it interesting. I think orange theory is, it is, I think that's another area where it lacks. It lacks then the creativity department that CrossFit thrives in if you're at a good gym. Right, so. Yeah, I mean, I don't know. Personally, I've never actually even been to an orange theory. I've walked by it like three or four times. Kind of makes me a little bit like queasy when I look inside and everything's orange. You know, like you're in a room with like really weird lighting and you're just trying to like. Like everybody's wearing blue blockers. Can you imagine what we're doing? Just doing burpees, like in an orange room, you know, with orange, like that just sounds crazy to me. So I don't know. Well, they're doubling down on the culture side. So what you see is. They're trying to build this whole, yeah. Yeah, they're doing a lot of the, you know, wine and yoga on one days and the community things within and they're heavily. Which is smart. Yeah, they are. They're doubling down on that, which is, I think they CrossFit laid the blueprints out for everybody that literally, you hit it right on the head with that. They did really, really well with the culture and that was the biggest piece that was, they did that and then the, and the movements that were lacking, right? Though to me and CrossFit's two biggest things that they really separate themselves from the normal big box gyms that we were all going to just 15 years ago is they got people to do the most important lifts again, which no one was doing. Especially women. Yeah, right. Nobody was squatting and deadlifting and women definitely were squatting and deadlifting and now they are. And then the culture, right? Because if you go to a big box gym, everyone's got headphones on, you don't communicate to anybody, you don't talk to anybody at all, like CrossFit's totally different. I bet most your members don't even have headphones in while they're working out. Most of them are probably zero. If somebody puts in headphones, you're like, they must be new. Oh, see, that's great. You don't even know that, right? So that I could totally see how they would, that's so different though, right? I mean, that forces you to interact with the other person that's five feet away from you where the big box gyms didn't do that and for a business and for good cultures and stuff like that, that would be more ideal. So those two things, they knocked that apart. Those two things are the things that I think Orange Theory is really latching onto hoping that it will carry them. Yeah. I think the smaller, the lower volume, higher price per unit model is what's exploding. And CrossFit started it, but you see explosion of Pilates Studios, yoga studios, boot camp type classes, you know, other type of group type, training type things. These are gyms that have far less members but much higher costs per unit. Because, I mean, let's be honest, people are getting their money's worth when they pay $150 a month for a place that they're actually gonna use and work out in versus the $20 a month planet fitness gym that I never go to. It's a totally different model, but that's where I see the growth. That's where the growth is. Do you guys ever think about getting back down to just one and kind of doubling down on that place?  Do you ever think that way? Do you guys ever, does that ever cross your mind? Yeah, all the time. We talk about all the time. Because we have similar experiences. We have a flagship gym and then we have like an expansion location. Ben now has two, but for a long time, he just had the second gym. And for both of us, our experience, and I guess I'll just speak for myself. My experience has been that you can't, you can't put the same heartbeat in multiple brick and mortar locations. You just can't do it. You try to, you want to proliferate your model and you have this kind of arrogance that, hey, I did it here, I can do it there. But there's so many factors and the heartbeat is just different. So you have to let it be different and that's okay. So yeah, I thought about it. I came very close to closing my second location and just focusing on the first one because it felt like, it felt like that's kind of what was happening anyways. But I went against that, I'm glad that I did. I think that even if, I think it's okay for the gyms to be different. I don't think it necessarily needs, they don't need to be at the same revenue level, the same membership level. You're just, what you're doing is you're providing, you're providing something that demographic needs, right? And I think long-term, I think long-term because of the trends that I see that I think are gonna happen, I think it's gonna pay off. To have multiple. To have multiple. Been around for a long time. Been around and be established. Yeah, I really do. Like Ben said before, there's a lot of opportunities coming across our desks lately to buy gyms or to combine gyms because people are getting to that point where they're either they want to move on or they've had enough or it's just too much of a stress. I think for me, I look at that question, like, hey, do you think it'd be easier if you had just one kid? Yeah, it would be easier. That's the real answer, right? So do I entertain? But you don't want to get rid of you. Yeah, yeah, exactly. But which kid do you pick?  No, I already know which one I'd pick, but I'm not gonna say. Podcasts live forever, right? You can't, man. Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, and really that would probably be terrible too if I didn't have anything to juxtapose with, but that idea of like, would you be able to focus on just the one, I think a location that has, let's just say one third of Blair Morrison at it because he's got two or three of them is better than a gym with no personality, with no guidance, with no captain, right? And over time, we'll learn better how to give a good amount to each one. And then those will grow because the knowledge and experience that Blair has or the mileage that he's went, really, you can't duplicate that. You know what I mean? His experiences is very unique to himself, obviously. And if he wants to have a community that gets a little piece of that, that's a good thing, right? And I would think that same thing for me, people know I have like a drum, I just pound, I've got four kids, I've got three gyms, I do all this stuff all the time. People are like, hey, Ben, did you train? They're like, no, I've got four kids, I've got three gyms. It would be a great, like, stitched, it would be a producer dog on this. Just mash it up. All the time Ben has said, I've got four kids. I've got four kids. So I have this big leather diaper bag.  I say, well, you know, I've got four kids and stuff, so I get in when I can, you know what I mean? I leave my barbell loaded at 95 pounds to do a few strict press, you know what I mean? Like, and I just do what I can, you know? And that's like literally my mantra, but I just like, I think there's enough for those four kids, I think there's enough for my three gyms, especially if we start doing things better and that's what I think Blair and I's challenge and probably any other affiliate owner, box owner, gym owner is when they're trying to scale their business up. It's learning how to systemize things better so that everybody gets enough of you, because you know what, I think I waste a lot of time and energy on things that don't really matter all that much. And I think if I can start better analyzing those and getting rid of those and only focusing on my best practices, I think there's more than enough of me to go around for all three gyms. Absolutely, and I'll say this right now. I think you guys have a tremendous opportunity with your podcast. I've talked to quite a few podcasters. We've been in the space for a while. You guys are really good. You have the natural ability to get on the mics and go. I think there's a massive opportunity with your podcast. And the cool thing about it is unlike opening a new box, you don't need to invest anymore capital. The amount of time that you have to invest in it really isn't that much more than, you know, than maybe what you're doing now or a little bit more, but nothing like a new box and the opportunity to reach the amount of people that you may want to reach to grow, you can't touch that with a box that relies on your locality. So that's where I would say you guys have a tremendous opportunity. And I really appreciate you guys coming on. Yeah, thanks. Coming on, doing this with us. Good time hanging out with you boys. Absolutely, we really enjoy you guys' podcast. You guys want to give it a shout out real quick? Go ahead, Blair, Blair's more articulate. He went to Princeton. Long time ago. Yeah, our podcast is called Beyond the Barbell. So we focus on Ben and I's experiences as athletes, fathers, business owners. We try to get a little bit away from a lot of the science of programming and fitness and talk about the lifestyle, what people, what struggles people go through, what experiences we have. So we, I mean, it's a guest based podcast. We almost always have a guest on the show. It's been around two and a half years. It's like a labor of love for us. You know, we have a lot of fun doing it. We do a lot of traveling for it. You know, we go down to a lot of the big events, the CrossFit Games, Spartan World Championships. And it's not limited just to CrossFit. So we try to, we try to branch out. I mean, you guys set a great model for this, like being open to all different forms and experts and things like that. It makes it more interesting and that's kind of what we like to do as well. So we're really happy to be here with you guys for sure. Awesome. Well, maybe you'll invite us down to the CrossFit Games because I think the only way we could go there is we need some street cred. If we're gonna get in there, we need some guys that have been there. For sure.  We got your back, guys. Yeah, we're OGs, man, we're good. We get anybody anywhere. That's right. So check this out. Go to YouTube, subscribe to our channel, Mind Pump TV.  Also, if you go to mindpumpmedia.com, we're offering 30 days of coaching for free. Just go to the site and register. Thank you for listening to Mind Pump. If your goal is to build and shape your body, dramatically improve your health and energy, and maximize your overall performance, check out our discounted RGB Superbundle at mindpumpmedia.com. The RGB Superbundle includes MAPS Anabolic, MAPS Performance, and MAPS Aesthetic. Nine months of phased expert exercise programming designed by Sal Adam and Justin to systematically transform the way your body looks, feels, and performs. 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