Okay, three o'clock rock. I'm Jay Fiedel here at Think Tech and we have Mark Duda with us And I want to just say a few words before I say actually hello to Mark Take a flash on mark. That's what we can see what we're talking about. That's Mark Duda. Okay So he got into the energy business pretty early In in my view of it. I mean 2008, you know, and that was that was the year if you recall of the great agreement There was the agreement to agree so to speak. Yeah The great energy agreement under Linda Lingle. It really it did change things. It did, you know, it was the nod It was the governmental nod to energy and he worked his buns off for the next several years I mean, I'm sure still and when we started getting active on the Hawaii energy policy forum and had all these events legislative briefings, you know in January and Energy day mark was very active in that and he was active in the solar energy Association for several years anyway and Those were the heady days those of the day everybody was sort of coming together on energy was so much action so much excitement Gee, I remember and I got to know early that mark Mark was really dedicated to this that he that it was his life was intertwined with energy And thus it will always be with Mark Duda I can't imagine him in any other context the other thing is really smart really articulate and I learned early that he's a Leader in this area, but we haven't seen him in a couple years And so it's really delightful to have him back. Welcome to the show mark. Thanks Jay. It's great to be back It's probably a good time to catch up. It is let's catch up, you know in those days I'm talking four or five years ago It seemed like we were all in the boat together At least I saw it that way maybe you did too and we were all working, you know toward this really exciting goal We didn't have this you know 20 20 45 thing at the time But but there was really exciting goal of putting clean energy everywhere changing our changing our state and And people took note not only in the state but outside the state and the personalities and the organizations involved the stakeholders If you will of Hawaii energy policy forum You know, I thought that we would all grow old together and that we would we'd be involved in moving this Moving the ball ahead and and creating a new world here in Hawaii But little by little and I'm sure you saw the same thing you said you view about it Little by little that that you couldn't sustain that that view because people were coming and going Organizations were changing and coming and going in the government, you know the two-year cycles in the House of Representatives My goodness, they don't know what the last guy knew you taught the last guy about it But now if somebody else comes in and just knows so much have to reteach him And so the legislative cycle political cycle, you know sort of Change things and changing personalities. It was like a great big Musical chairs kind of affair where the end of the day look around on the guys You thought we were going to get old with building energy.  Who is around who remembers it's and I always said that Hawaii has a bad case of us can't remember And maybe no we can't in this area So what is your experience been like you know from the heady days when you started 2008 you're you know You were a founder of revolution now you're with DEP distributed energy partners doing solar but more than solar I know you do more than solar because you're that kind of guy What has it been like for you? What what kind of trends and evolutions have you seen could you observe in your in your you know Profundity well, I mean you've said a lot there and it's a little bit challenging to respond But I think one of the kind of key ways that I think about the last you know coming on ten years is Is you know in those early days when in some ways it did seem to be different was that? Because it was different or because we had a snapshot into what was inherently a historical process I mean I think that's been proven right like things change and evolve over time and they have and you know When I got into this we were we were trying to figure out if the grid could handle You know 1% of the customers having PV Let's say and you know now we're at somewhere north of 20% of that kind of thing and so the questions have changed and So I you know I just think that there that on one hand There's more perspective to be had in terms of integrating non utility owned Renewable energy of all different sizes into the utility grid and the implications that that has for everybody But at the same time not everybody has all of that history I think this is one of your other points is some people that have you know kind of were involved then they got out of it before They'd seen different aspects of the cycle and some of the people doing it now You know weren't around for those early days So it does make it challenging to kind of pick through and see what's really going on and that really have a sensibility For you know what certain changes that may happen now mean in the context of everything that came before and where they may be Pointing us to the future. So I you know I totally take your point. I think about a lot of the same stuff Well, I mean some some of the bumps and grinds in the road here is You know soon after the the beginning of this period. We're talking about it was contention There was contention by the solar installers of which you were and you were in that group Against the utility because the utility didn't want so much solar there was contention with the regulators who were I think Under political pressure one way another and the legislature under political prayer bars lobbying everybody about everything And and that never got settled. I'm talking about a large picture never got settled and then what not quite two years ago In walks the next era deal Which was you know talk about distraction I mean in the fullness of the historical events we're talking about that was a huge I would say that was a 4.3 billion dollar distraction Everybody stopped it was like stopped the world. I want to get off and and nothing happened I mean everybody was like waiting to see which way the wind was blowing keeping options open waiting to see and now It's over and now we have a moment of peace maybe not so many distractions And we try to figure out which direction we were going How that may have changed in the past couple years? Which direction we should go now and we look around and we see that you know solar may not be the Cural that it was Hawaii may not be the leader that we thought it was going to be Yep, well, I think you know, maybe there's three different points in there. I like that's complex That to the distraction point, I think you know, that's unambiguous that was clear before the Commission agreed to hear that case I don't know if you remember but a number of organizations that were interveners and a lot of the Relevant dockets that are going to determine the state's energy policy going forward filed a motion with the Commission saying hey You need to figure out that there's docket to the coupling docket the power supply improvement pen docket And I forget what the other one was with four of them, you know So that we know what the state's energy policy is and and even ultimately in fairness to next terrorist They can see if they want to be a part of what the state decides is going to be the public interest around the electric power sector going forward and In you know, and you know, here's all the problems that will happen if we don't do that and instead You know, we heard the case and we're exactly right back where we were before and of course We have a new chair now and what's he done but in the last couple of weeks said hey We really now that we've got this thing out of the way It sucked all the air out of the room, but we really need to get back to these four dockets Like I say, which was clear to a lot of the people that were kind of deeply involved in this beforehand So to that point tell your your hundred percent Agreement on the distraction point and the sad part of it is that you could have known this beforehand and probably save next Error a lot of trouble as well as you know, what regulators and the interveners Right I do For that reason, which is that we don't want to make the state's energy policy in the context of what next era wants We want to make that in the term what's in the public interest and then see who wants to kind of orient to that and you know Obviously in the middle of their bid, which was based, you know in a substantial way around LNG The state decided it wanted a hundred percent renewables, you know Essentially in the same relevant time frame where you would recover the cost of that LNG investment So, you know, if you're on the next era side, you would say hey, this isn't really matching up with our plans very well You know you couldn't help but but think that but but you know, this isn't meant to be an anti next era point It's a governance point. I mean you should they shouldn't have been put in that They shouldn't have been allowed to put themself in that position when it was really clear two years ago What the state needed to do which was to figure this other stuff out and then see who wanted to support that You know that version of the public interest Couldn't you know, I mean and I dwell on this issue myself Couldn't the state have regulated next era one way or the other into following state policy? I mean why why do we why do we have so little confidence in our ability to regulate a Company to comply with state policy. Well, I think we see evidence of Governments inability to regulate, you know all over the economy and health care sector You know, so I mean it's almost like the opposite question. Why would you think you'd be successful? And not you know not not intended to be pejorative toward anyone in government It it on some level is an unequal playing field and the rewards to the company of winning that battle You know are much higher than they are to government and so people lacked accordingly It's kind of like microeconomics 101, but but things have changed now for for you for the solar industry I mean it was really gangbusters there at the beginning and it was a you know a ripe pomegranate for everybody involved And it's just a thought I want to share with you. I had this thought driving in and that is this You know at the outset this was so attractive and it was could be could be so profitable But but but but what I think what the solar industry forgot was that it needed to it needed to Understand and sympathize with the common good rather than profit per company or for the trade the industry itself And that had had the had the solar installers looked further And I think you did actually looked further to the common good It would have been a more credible force in the conversation and it would have taken us to a better place We'd be in a better place now if the industry had been looking to the common good Well, I mean I don't want to argue that everything the solar industry has done over the last decade It's great, but but I actually really disagree with the point you're making and I would say that that largely reflects the story that utilities been trying to sell through various outlets over that period you know and The the reason why in my view this is this isn't well first of all on the solar industry side, right? I mean the a lot of the arguments about where the common good is being harmed You know have no basis in any kind of empirical research or even sort of theoretical grounding There's things that get set over and over and over and haven't been examined And again, you could argue that at some point the commission should have looked at this question in a Methodologically robust and defensible way, and then we did least have a realistic answer to sort of orient around so that's a solvable problem We just haven't as a state set out to solve about the end of any M NEM was that was that a good move or not? Well, it uh, you know from the perspective I mean the most recent thing I've seen on this was by Jim Lazar who I'm sure you know Essentially that that NEM lowered costs for ratepayers in the state He didn't say that no that any amount of NEM going on forever would have that result But that was the result of his empirical analysis looking at actual data from this state So, you know, I don't think you I don't think you see that anywhere else You know prior to his analysis somebody like actually doing math to show that that kind of result And it's not like he's doing that on the behalf of the solar industry He's just an interest, you know someone who wants to get energy policy right in the state So, you know that being said, I think the question is really if you wanted to change the way Distributed generation gets interconnected. How would you do that? And in my view what the Commission did is is Is not Inherently problematic or wrong. I think there's other things that they could have done But but from a theoretical perspective, they had a logically coherent plan But the way that they implemented in the decision in that there's docket last year was just inadequate and and what I mean By that is you say, hey, here's what rightly or wrongly Here's the problems that we perceive with distributed generation and the opportunities that we perceive around it is first of all And a certain point is going to X there's gonna be too much power Exported from these systems onto the grid. So we got to do something about that We're concerned that people are being overcompensated for putting power onto the grid We're concerned about that and conversely if we could only make all these people that keep wanting to buy net metered PV systems by batteries Then we could save the utility from having to make investments in ancillary service providing Technologies that could be done from all these distributed systems And so why don't we try to solve all those problems at once and basically drive the market toward these self supply systems Which essentially two-thirds of which I think in their view We're going to be residential systems with substantial amounts of batteries That would allow people to serve their own load during the day and at night to a significant extent by providing power out of the batteries I think a good idea. It does sound like a good idea And like I say, I'm not trying to sit here and criticize that idea However, what's bad about the way they implemented what was again not an inherently bad idea Was that they didn't specify the pricing that allows you to calculate the value or the economics around that investment So how much are you going to be paid if anything for providing these ancillary services at your house? Because it does limit the amount of power that you're going to get out of these batteries that you bought So should you buy them or shouldn't you buy them? Well, I don't know because some of the variables in the math problem I'm trying to compute don't exist and so to specify something like that without those variables is a mistake Second thing is when you really want that power to be supplied or for the utility not to have to supply that power Is in the evening peak and that what the commission said is hey We want some time of use rates not the time of use periods are five to nine and the pricing is going to be like this and Not only is that what you're going to be charged if you use power at that time But you can actually be paid more for supplying power to the grid during that time So you would think that you would want to use the leverage the resource of people like you and me buying systems at Our houses to flatten the load curve and reduce the cost of supplying power to everybody they didn't do that and then they also said and The way we're kind of thinking about it is that you'll need to supply these grid supportive services Potentially as a quid pro quo just for interconnecting at all, but then they didn't say which ones and so I'm not sitting here trying To say this was an easy problem to solve but at the same time I am saying that if you wanted to sort of radically transition from a system Which is buy a PV system put it on your house export whenever you want use power whenever you want to one that said never export buy some batteries and You know supply services to the grid you need to sort of think it through and detail it out better And so that's what we got last October October 12th in essence And I would say it's still not really worked out to the point where people can make sound investment Decisions around a decision that's a lot different than than what it used to be and you can throw in the fact that over that Same period oils gone down So the cost of waiting to invest in a system like that has gone down and that kind of thing so horses Yep, I told you about Mark. He really is Akamai about this stuff very thoughtful and articulate We're gonna take a minute and think about what he said try to integrate that into our brains I'm going to come back when to ask him. What would he do now? Hi, I'm Ethan Allen host of likeable science here on think tech Hawaii calm I hope you'll join me every Friday at 2 p.m. To discover what's likeable about science Aloha a Hanukako is here every week on the think tech Hawaii broadcast network Because we need to take a dispassionate look at the issues here in Hawaii We need to understand what's going on in the economy in the public sector and the private sector What's going on in terms of schools and with the people whom we love and see every day I'm Keeley Akina president of the grassroot Institute proud to be part of think tech Hawaii and we'll see you here every Monday at 2 o'clock p.m. Aloha Aloha and welcome to think tech Hawaii. I am in a tank I am the guest host for small business Hawaii with Ratch Baker to tune in every Thursday at 2 p.m. And watch us Aloha We're back we're live and now we're gonna now we're gonna actually Figure it all this out with Mark Duda of distributed energy partners We've been around in and around the clean energy initiative really from the beginning in the current generation I'm a calling this show we calling this Plan B life after next era and we're gonna ask him what is what is his plan B to move ahead on this But let me throw some elements sort of based on what we were talking about before and during the break So it seems to me this is ultimately a question of technology. I mean we're gonna deal with the technology We'll be smart about dealing technology. It's not only the PV technology, which is pretty mature already But it's technology of the black boxes you know that you put on Smart grid and it's the technology of the batteries and it's all that software that Canon should be devised in order to control all that and make it work together So really it's a technological question and and so why haven't we done more? Up till now we could have black boxes. We could have smart grid we've been talking about smart grid for the longest time and Batteries are out there. Yes, they're expensive and yes Marco Mangelsdorf and his article said they cost about as much as the system itself as the PV system itself So effectively it doubles the cost of your system, but it's critical. That's good for the community So why can't we find a way to incentivize and cause the structures? You know in the community in the energy community to put all this in place and move forward I think the context for that question and for what you said that it you know, it's the most fundamental thing is technology I would say that there's one thing even more fundamental which is the business model of the utility and so I think that's sort of the point from which everything else is ultimately going to emanate and And so I think if you had a utility with a different business model, then you know You'd get different sets of policy issues You'd get probably different sources of agreement and disagreement among the different players Then you have now and you'd get a different sort of pace of technological adoption and that kind of stuff too So talk about what change in business model I mean the thing that you hear a lot is that the coupling has sort of severed the link between the utility wanting to sort of buy and own things like generating assets and Their remuneration for doing that But it doesn't really like that because you still periodically have these rate cases where you sort of reset that Compensation level and so the thing that I think that like the fundamental question in utility regulation in the state is is when we are going to Sort of acknowledge and confront and really get into addressing the fact that we can't have a utility that makes money by buying things and Expect them to not want to do as much generation transmission Distribution and everything else they can as possible And so you know if we think that that's in the public interest then we should leave the regulatory model the way it is If we're trying to get somewhere else then we need to change it and by change it I mean we need to put them in a position where they can do as well as they as they can And as they need to do and as they can go to their shareholders to them to have a fiduciary Responsibility, you know with a clean conscience and say this is a great plan for us But they have to make money by doing something different I mean and it's literally at the level of IBM not making computers anymore and going into consulting services that kind of thing So they need to do things like manage the grid and you know at the end of the day And I'm not talking tomorrow if you want to sell some kilowatt hours to someone else They you know you need to be able to do it and they need to be able to make money for enabling that type of transaction And so you know eventually we're gonna get there just because the sheer weight of technology will ensure that that you know stuff developed Elsewhere eventually lands here, but that could be 30 years But we should be talking about it like tomorrow and trying to get there otherwise I think we're gonna be stuck in this cycle excuse me. We're gonna be stuck in this cycle where You know they are Motivated based on their regulatory incentives to want things that are different than most of the other stakeholders and that in my view Aren't in the public interest and so you're gonna get them wanting to own Power plants that make power in an evening peak and they're gonna at the end of the day want a relatively high peak because it justifies more Power plants where what's in the public interest is a really really flat load curve Yeah, you're not talking about a co-op side notice you haven't said a word about co-op I don't think that a co-op is inconsistent with that or that it means you'd automatically land in that world It's just an it's an ownership model that that is you know Need probably in some ways neither more or less consistent with that regulatory model than other ones I think you know, I'm certainly not an expert on this But there's you know co-ops come with a different set of advantages and disadvantages than an investor on utility for sure You're just talking about the entity whatever it is. Yeah, how they have to be differently incentivized Exactly, so they're not looking to make money on things. We don't need and well on more of things that we do need then we could get away with Yeah, okay, so so I give you a lot of people who'd like still to put PV on their roofs I'd like to you know, and I give you a utility that like likes to make I should like to make Utility scale PV farms and turbine wind turbine farms We we have the opportunities to develop an awful lot of renewable energy, but what's missing is the technology I Mean and I go back to the batteries Some I mean people have all kinds of different views about this. I'm interested in yours Where should the batteries be? Should they be at the homeowner? Should there be the utility should be at both places and how do you talk? How do you have them talk to each other and this I don't mean to sidestep your point about, you know, the The monetary model, but just in terms of the efficiency of the entire system And assuming that there still will be a utility That it's relevant to connecting us all and making our our electric community work Where do you put the where do you put the renewables and where do you put the batteries? I think you put both in both places I mean not to try to dodge the question but about the optimal system probably has utility scale storage where that's needed and it also has storage, you know at the individual house level and You know how much of each you get is going to be a response to the price signals based by those consumers on the smaller Scale and developers on the utility scale and the utility itself in terms of the regulatory model But it just seems to me that that you have the public willing to to you know sort of step up and buy things that historically have been bought by the utility and You know recourse the cost of that recovered from everybody and you know You kind of sit there knowing that the public is willing to make this type of investment And it has spillover benefits that we really haven't tried to sort of monetize not monetize But try to try to haven't tried to bring onto the grid and that like, you know The regulatory system going forward ought to try to focus on doing that, you know And so in my sort of guesstimate here once you've done a fair amount of that you will you will still be aware that there are places where you need to cite storage on the grid and You know, that's the most cost-effective way of making sure that you don't have some congestion on the transmission system Or what have you you know that kind of thing. I mean maybe I'm being simplistic about this but if I had a lot of Utility scale solar and wind and whatever else I mean I see those as the real possibilities not anything else Both politically and technologically And you have batteries that will cover the peak Why do we need generating systems at all? Can't we put the money into the batteries and move forward, you know Even faster than 2045. I don't think there's a Technological reason why you couldn't do that, you know, I think you want to optimize that investment you know like so from a PV perspective the cost of solar panels was continuing to trickle down, but You know if you wait 30 years and it comes down another 20 cents a watt You know you've lost more in that time period than you've saved by having the investment be cheaper That isn't the case on the batteries So there's some time in the next 20 years and maybe it's five years Maybe it's 10 years when you'd want to sort of say, okay If I you know starting whenever we're gonna build up and then eventually we're gonna you know Like the real central phase that investment is gonna hit, you know in year You know x y and z when we think that the price will have come down so that you optimize that Investment decision the way that you do with any kind of investment like that. So I think that needs to be factored in You know the some costs are going up labor is going up land costs are going up in the state Obviously, everyone's aware of that and probably there's more awareness of the O&M on the solar and wind systems So that that's going up as well one thing that we haven't talked about that's relevant here Is that you hear a lot about why the cost of utility scale generation in both solar and wind is higher here than on the mainland? And one thing I know I don't know much about the wind side if I can speak to the solar side And the thing that I never here talked about is the risk premium that gets injected into the development process here Just based on the fact that most of those deals end up dying And so why would you knowing what you know put your money into a utility scale solar investment in the state right now when? I don't know was it 14 out of 15 of the recent ones have died You know some at the Commission some for different you know for other reasons You know and some obviously from the utility having cancelled them when in the case of the Sun Edison stuff So it's just and that's built into the price when they made bid It has to be because you know investors aren't dumb and they look at what happens in here And most of these things don't get built right so you don't put your money into something that has a Whatever nine five nine out of ten chance to fail right and yeah millions and then you lose it So you have to build that in it's only good business Yeah, so my view is that like you know half of those costs are just the Hawaii risk premium There are things that are much more expensive here. Well, maybe we can we should I don't know if we can but we should yeah So my ultimate question the show question for you and we only have a minute or two left Sorry Is what is your plan B? What do we do? What do we do first? What do we do intermediate? What do you do long term? I think step one is the state needs to articulate, you know how it wants to get to hundred percent renewable I'm assuming we're not going to change that in 2045 is going to be you know more or less is going to be the year So so we need to figure out how we want to get there and that needs to be considered broadly I need to figure out what the sort of spill overs outside the energy sector are of going this way or this way or this way That's a good thing then we need once we know that we need to look at what regulatory model is consistent with that outcome And then we need to get the pricing right and being willing to tweak it And and I think that the problem will take care of itself not that those three things are easy But those are all doable and it's you know instead we tend to focus on you know What you would do if those things were already in place like that You know let's do this or let's do that But if you just get this fundamental stuff right it basically is going to drive itself in the direction you want and you know We've seen that with the solar industry where the panels got a lot cheaper and the cost of the utility power went up And we had a supportive tax incentive and you know the thing took off like gangbusters, so You know you nobody nobody was micromanaging it it just worked because everything was pointing in one direction I think we can do the same thing with the whole electric power sector But it's gonna you know take a lot of political will and it's gonna take a lot of leadership to kind of browbeat Everybody into doing that, but that's where I think we are and I'm going to clever suggestions and clever incentives And you know not controversy just clever Clever and controversy, you know, yeah It works better if you do clever, so I only have one more question. Would you ever consider government service? I haven't you know I think my sort of position is or the place where I feel most comfortable is in policy analysis And so you know historically I've done that from outside of government, but You know you never know right you never know But it you'll come back right and we'll explore these things further as the ball moves forward. Yes, absolutely Thank you. Mark sure day Mark Duda Distributed energy partners and a long time principle in the initiative for clean energy


All right, so hi everybody. I'm my name is Daniel Eddiger and I work in the same building as SART at the same organization at Northwest Justice Project and We've worked together for several years and so I just did a image search on myself so you can see What I look like there's the three to pop up So I am the I do most of the videos on our YouTube channel in Washington law help But I am also a staff attorney So I have like a lot of people in legal services more than one job to do so that kind of informed my Creation of this guide with limited time and money because I also have hundreds of clients every year So how do how do you make videos when you have other constraints? This is our YouTube channel These are all the videos we've made over the years or not all of them. This is about a third of the videos and We've done lots of different kinds. We've experimented and so I I'd say the SART and Cat you're on the on the webinar as well and I have a lot of experience with making videos With limited time and money. So just to repeat what SART said Please feel free to ask anything ask us anything and We'll do our best to answer so This is you know SART already showed you but this is the the video guide link How to make and test videos with limited time and money? I tried to get this thing down to about 10 pages and the intended audience in my mind was somebody who has never made a video or has made one but just doesn't know if it was working at all and Really that first group of people like who I don't know Maybe it's for various reasons intimidated or not sure how to if they're even if it's even possible How how to make a video I wanted to boil down into like yes, you can and get you from like zero to You have a video that's working in a few months. So that was kind of the intention of the guide and I'm gonna basically give a tour of the guide itself through this Webinar and you'll get to see each of the pieces and how I got to where How how I got to there so So When we started out a couple years ago wondering like you know, we had made various videos Starting in 2011 when we got our YouTube channel and a lot of people were asking do you know if these videos work? like our is anybody actually able to Like solve their legal problem after watching them I mean a lot of people in the community attorneys and other people were thinking like well they look great, but is this a waste of time and You know, we had anecdotal evidence that people liked them. We could see statistics through YouTube Analytics, but you know, we hadn't ever really done a formal gone out and asked well Do they work and ask people in the community specifically our client communities What they thought of them what they thought of videos in general So that was the field testing project that we put together in a TIG application We've been and we over the next over the two years after we got the grant We conducted several field testing Sessions to find out This guide, which I just think anybody who's interested in making videos or publications Of any kind print or or just making any sort of legal information publication should this be your first stop to read Legal Services Society of British Columbia reaching your readers. They kind of wrote the book on it, but it was written in 2007 So this is Something that like there probably could be some update We tried to do it through the through our guide and to be like a supplement or complement to this guide I did start talking to people at Legal a legal services Society of British Columbia to talk to them about how they came up with that guide what their experiences were and They had done some really interesting work with field testing with groups of people in the indigenous indigenous community And actually with comic book artists to say like they had more a more narrative type of video where they had like Different outcomes and then they showed different kinds of videos at a storyboard level and asked people Which is which is better which is more realistic which like affects you more Which do you think like would be a better way to communicate like for example the Foster care system or the child child custody Process and so I just want to like show this website here so you can see Legal a BC has done a lot of interesting videos that they have field tested and asked people in the community and that's where they get their our guide and So two quick things that reaching your readers guide. I just dropped a link to that in the chat I also downloaded a copy of it and put it in the handout resources if people want to download that 2007 guide So nice very easy for people to grab right now Okay, thanks art so Why make the videos? I mean like people constantly come up to me I think in our organization and say like, you know, I think we really need a video on this And it's always kind of interesting to talk to them about like well why why a video and not just print publication or join up and do an outreach like in person There's lots of different reasons. I think I tried to boil them down here into the four main ones And I this was confirmed through a lot of the of our field tests A lot of people learn through visual and moving images rather than reading text reading like five pages of like how to walk your way through a parenting plan Seeing a video is something that a lot of people want and request and ask for and these are people in our community. So Another thing we learned when I was doing outreach events like and I mean basically going to a senior center giving information and Doing a Q&A as an attorney, but also having the video there Most people that we asked said the video helps it helps to like start out with it Has it the images and then have like an attorney afterwards to ask and answer questions of Course posting them online on our YouTube channel. It kind of counteracts the other videos that are out there, which Just seems to be coming more and more prevalent Any of our legal issues that people search for on YouTube? For example landlord tenant issues, you're going to hit it get a lot of different videos But almost all of them are from the landlords perspective. So When we put our videos up there We change those search results and we get get the information that people who are in our client communities need and then of course it can also serve as a promotional or a directive to like your website or Your other services at a legal services organization Just boiling down this various steps to try to make it easy almost like a little checklist of how to how to go from like I've never made a video to like now we have something These are the main steps that I think it takes and the first one. I want to emphasize is Asking the community what kind of videos you actually need to make and then of course writing creating the visual images recording the audio editing Doing the field test and then changing it based on feedback. So I'm going to go through each of these steps Because each of them are addressed really quickly in our guide so again, I think this is just Representative of my philosophy about what these whole informational videos are about It, you know, if we just as lawyers come up with something that we think This is what people need to know then that's great, but it's never going to be complete or completely Accurate based on what people need to know unless we ask them and so you know Asking frontline service providers like hotline advocates legal assistants and lawyers who are in the walk-in clinics what are the questions that come up over and over and How do you end up addressing it most like what are these little speeches that you end up having to memorize and What do you kind of wish like if everybody if you could tell everybody in the state? About a certain landlord-tenant issue, what would it be a lot of these frontline service providers will have a couple ready answers and those are the things that like I'd say are like the the first places to go and Make start making your videos Not everything works. Well, not all legal processes like turn into like a good short video some are made to are too complicated Step-by-step guides are good showing what an actual document looks like and kind of pointing out Places in the form. Those are good ones and then common misconceptions That you could just try to debunk try to get that other information out there like don't withhold rent if your landlord Isn't making repairs. You have to do it this other way like that's just like a pretty good topic idea so the script template that I have been using for the past few years is Pretty simple. It's got three columns. It's got a time code It's got a what you hear like a narration or voiceover and a what you see and to break it down like this is Like this is a big step for a lot of people who like who've never made a video I've never really thought visually and There may be an attorney and they're like we need to you we need a video on this to get this information out there and if they try to come up with a script usually it doesn't have that visual part and Just putting it in a spreadsheet column like this. I think can do a lot to show The other attorneys or people who you're working with to write the script to show them like every single sentence has to have something on screen Visually and it's not like that's the whole point. So this three column So red sheet When you're talking about this you might want to explain a little bit what the videos kind of look like because some of the Like previous people's experiences with videos are kind of the lawyer talking at you and I think We use a very different design of video that is much easier to update But what do you mean when you say like have a have something on the screen up there? If it's not a talking head Okay, so I That's probably the the classic example is the like lawyer in front of a bookcase talking and we Right away when we first started making videos decided we didn't want to do that I'm going to talk a little bit more about that in just a few minutes, but our we use a very simple animation and I'm going to try to walk through again, like how you're going to be able to do this but It's like a cartoon. It's basically a glorified PowerPoint presentation So, you know if we're talking about a house then maybe there's an image of a house If we're talking about a document a document is sliding over to the person who needs the document This Script template I think is just a way to like remind other people you're working with that We're creating something visual in the end with with like of course and words are the narration There might be text on screen, but just to like link the two Right from the outset There's a script template included in the guide itself just to kind of show you like Here's how to make your own. It's really just a chart or a spreadsheet that you can make in a word file and The next step is creating those visual images so again to make the absolute simplest How do you get there if you've never made one before I say use PowerPoint or Keynote, which is Apple's version. That's the one I use because it's just a little easier to create these These drawings for me, but I can I've made them in PowerPoint just as well Whenever I talk about making visual images I there's a lot of People who Immediately have like taken themselves out of the ability to do that. Maybe like I don't know what there was a Bad experience in middle school or something, but a lot of people think I can't draw. There's no way a lot of those people can draw or you can find drawings places you can have friends or Family members make the drawings. They can be really simple and comic book like You know one step above stick figure is fine. I think Everybody's got a camera now in their Pocket with their phone and each of these can be turned into images. So Just getting 12 of them down there really quickly 12 images like with the words You're making a PowerPoint basically how you can start out thinking about it and getting them, you know you're going to hold the slide on screen for five seconds each and This is the start of making a video So once you get these images You export them into the into a file that can be Put into your video editing software later Looks like there's a question. Where is he getting his images and video from is that are there copyright issues? So the way I avoid that is making original images again. This is like Just drawing in a whiteboard right taking a picture of it with your phone then it in PowerPoint using that that image that it like to add color and Animation later and then there's no copyright issue because you've created it Sorry, you know, you probably know I'm our screen to like copyright issue because I just like avoid it by never finding images Online so I didn't hear that you're seeing about this phone and hand. That's something that's my hand and phone Okay, so I just dropped a link to a guide that we wrote a few years ago on copyright and Creative Commons for legal services It's about a 20-page guide, but in there we also have a video that kind of explains the basics But there's a bunch of links Pixel Bay is one of them Also, if you go to a Google search Inside of Google search for images There's a bunch of filters and one of those filters Let me see get the exact wording here, but it allows you to search by the License that is associated with anything So if you go to Google typing cats go to the image search there is a drop-down, which is called The tools and under tools there's one called usage rights And if it starts at unfiltered, but if you go to labeled for reuse with modification 99% of those images are going to have an open copyright license on them to where anyone can use them They'll be from several different sites, but pixel bay flicker lots of There's one called Plex P exe LS and if you click on the individual image, it will usually take you to a page that has the license so Including public domain licenses or licenses where you just have to give someone credit Creative comments or it also has a search function that lets you search for music video Images lots of those things Additionally, somebody asked they were getting an error for share law video calm. It's actually share law video org I dropped the URL into the chat But the guides are up there additionally any of the stock footage or Guides anything that is on that particular Site is licensed in an open way that other legal services organizations can use it We also got a great comment from I think it was Zini here that has a few other sites where you can get images So there's lots of places that have this openly licensed stuff which can be public domain where you don't need any accreditation or Something like a creative comments by whereas long as you give the author credit You can use it highly recommend using those and checking out the copyright guide Yeah, see thanks start so I Even created like this video clip fun pack in the guide itself Just you know, if you download it as a PDF and you're looking at it on your computer screen You know how to take a screenshot or screen grab you can Take these images here that I've created put them into your PowerPoint and use them as much as you want I mean, this is just a starter pack. I don't know if anybody is I Thought it was a interesting idea that somebody could use like any of these any way they wanted That's you know courtroom House car a lot of these things come up a lot in our in the legal issues that we were talking about so there's another free resource and all these drawings were done like on a whiteboard and then I Colored them in PowerPoint. So This is like an image a typical image from one of our videos. This is one of the videos we field tested this is about income tax issues for Farmworkers who are in an h2a visa. It's pretty complicated. There's a lot of numbers a lot of people in the community You aren't even aware that they're that they have an obligation to file taxes in some way So it's like a complicated issue. We try to make it Clear through video, but as you can see this is a PowerPoint slide I don't I don't know if that's like it's an image from our video But I basically created this whole thing in PowerPoint the arrow the Like paste up there and that drawing which is in that clip art pack that anybody can use And like start said the reason we don't do the talking head Real person type video is that we can make something in a different language very much more easier We you just have to record the audio in English and then have another person like we use Qualified or certified Interpreters to record our voice over in another language So we want them to be able to come in record it and then not have to come back Oh, you know so if we need to make a change and So that's why we favor this animation style And So after you get the images, that's the time to record the voice over so I'm going to talk a bit a little bit about the equipment but You know over the years like there's I don't know I've gotten in a lot of discussions about the quality of the audio I think doing a few little efforts getting a Microphone is worth it, but I don't think it's necessary to this to like Create the whole sound booth because like I think like it's better to get good visual information with with Pretty good audio out there rather than half perfect audio So This is the sound setup that I've used on all of our videos pretty much and it's basically that blue Yeti USB microphone and You know, I use this sound booth thing that I made out of a plastic bin and egg crate mattress foam on my desk and Because like in our office, there's copy machines There's people walking by, you know, and it's just like not an ideal sound environment, but that cuts out a lot of the sound Sard I think you have like a Like an actual sound screen what it what is that thing that you use when you record on your desk same thing I've got a sound screen It ran a little bit less than a hundred dollars The biggest improvement definitely came from the blue Yeti mic It's USB plug-in and it's about a hundred dollars. Also just being able to Remove most of that background noises is a big improvement though also so for two hundred dollars that gets you from zero to about 90 percentile for higher quality videos your what you're spending on mics after that You get small incremental increases but getting rid of that background noise and having a decent mic Most of the people we do webinars with I talked to them and try to encourage them to do better mics because it helps a lot especially for the archive videos yeah, and I like that concept that you bring that you brought up. I mean that's kind of my Larger philosophy on the videos too is like do a little bit to get up You know it a little bit can make a big difference, but you don't have to have perfection because It's better to get this information out there Editing audio and video together so our guide covers this I'll talk a little bit about the software we're using but first, you know And we've already kind of covered this but why not use the live actors? It's hard to memorize.  Let's say line number one You know that's why actors get paid because it's hard to memorize a line and then say it to the camera and not have it look You know completely strange or wooden so you know adding adding the the The access issue which is we want to we want to make videos in other languages and You know The camera time is just it takes a lot of time of production and it's difficult for a lot of people to do it In a way that you're going to be happy with and I think like having a voiceover is just as good So here's the sort of like demonstrate sort of a visual chart showing the PowerPoint technique I mean like that is basically like the slides of an animation there. Those are keynote slides PowerPoint slides and The thing that I've been using is the actual animations built in To PowerPoint itself just like in this presentation today Zooming in and out and just moving across the screen. Oh Again a little bit can go a long way just a little bit of showing like oh You know like here's where the document goes I like we field tested it and had like feedback from the community that was like that actually made it really clear because You know for example in this video shot that is on screen right now This is about like how to protect your sectionate voucher now The voucher program has a lot of paperwork that you're supposed that like do you have a voucher? You're obligated to like give this form to this person and this form to that person and a lot of people are not used to that and it's confusing and who gets what and so Just having that the the players the characters on screen and have those forms like swooping to the appropriate place We got feedback that that was really effective like oh I see you can't just give everything to the You know the housing authority you also have to give a copy to the landlord so that Was all PowerPoint animation the built-in just like moving or or like move in animations and so If if you're intimidated about animation at all. It's already built in into PowerPoint or Keynote so That's that's what this video is that you're watching and most of the videos that we've been using in field testing We also use Camtasia, which allows us to do that video screen grab so once you get that PowerPoint Presentation with its animations to a point that you like I mean you can actually record PowerPoint within the software program itself, but I Often use Camtasia, so I'm like I play the PowerPoint presentation And then Camtasia is recording the video screen and it allows me to like add a whole another layer of animation on top So Camtasia has these call outs like circles and arrows and zooming in and like you know Highlighting one portion, but but blocking out the rest and when you're showing like a form So we have a series that shows our power of attorney forms We can go through and show here's this paragraph and like you know black or gray out the rest and That is something that Camtasia is really effective at and also Going through websites Navigating through like here is a place where you need to go to apply or do the online calculator Camtasia lets you do that so As far as our video production outfit. I think Camtasia is pretty essential This just again shows like the two versions They've got a nonprofit discount. It's a little bit less than two hundred dollars Software-wise it it is a very easy to learn piece of software It's nowhere near as powerful as something like Adobe creative, which is going to be a lot more expensive But it's much much easier to use very very simple program I've had no trouble with lawyers or people with absolutely no tech background picking it up very quickly Yeah, and it's a really good video editing Software you know and like for the audio part to it's very clear where the sound waves are and you can drag and drop the various chunks of audio or video or images and I Mean if you if you don't have anything else, I'd say get that This is a demonstration of the one of the videos series that we field tested It's our power of attorney advanced directive videos, but again just showing like That's a Camtasia scene right there with like the green and blue circles Circling those names just to try to explain like here that you need to have two witnesses Have them sign here while you know the notary is there. So and this is a Pretty old Way of communicating this is a poster This is a poster that advertises one of our field testing sessions So I put a sample there in the guy just you can see it, but this is our step six So once you've gotten your draft video, I'm going to call it. You've got your draft first-round video and Your and this is where a lot of times we would in Formally have just stopped we'd put it on YouTube and law help and just say well There's our publication and let's hope it helps but Through this whole experience of field testing I'm now a firm believer that like it's not complete until you've actually field tested it. So I'm going to go through briefly what that it looks like and Yeah, we started we contacted Senior centers closing programs. We had you know an outreach worker in the farm worker community and basically the the thing we Offered was we can do a legal information outreach, which a lot of people in these places want You know, and they're usually like, yeah, we need you to come talk to us about private attorney documents or We need you to talk about the voucher program. It's super confusing and you know, it's like all the forms are in English and all of our Residents are in Spanish. Can you please come do a Q&A? Can you please give us legal information? so then yes, we can we would also like to show a video on this exact same topic and We would like to ask the people there Would you be able to give us feedback on the video to see if it's working? Because we don't know. We've got a quick questions from the last area One of them was Kid your PowerPoint templates that type of stuff. Um, is that available? A lot of those are available on Sharelaw video.org they can be downloaded. There's no login required. We just ask people to fill out a very short Form letting us know what program they're from using it but also If any of the videos that you see on Northwest justice projects YouTube channel, which I'll drop a link to there Daniel or are you willing to tell people out with kind of an intro how you put that together or scripts or that type of stuff? Oh Yeah, I mean definitely you can contact me and I I mean I can send you the PowerPoint I know share a lot of video we can like post them up there, too but like I'm happy to share these images and Any techniques too and then you can see how I created them And then what's the real problem of that? Camtasia and iMovie because I know you've got some experience with iMovie also Yeah iMovie You know Windows live movie maker. You use that a little bit, but mainly I use iMovie on a Mac and then Camtasia I Think more and more Camtasia. I guess but so what what do you get out of Camtasia that you don't really get with iMovie? Is it just like what? Well, I don't know. I mean They're pretty comparable although Camtasia has the video screen grab thing and so I use that a lot and it's got some it's got it the built-in and Zooming in and kind of flashing across iMovie has some but Camtasia's kind of built more for that like it's it's already conceived of like you're going to be showing like a Screen and you're manipulating like the space around that two-dimensional screen and how do you do that and Camtasia's like built-in animation seem to be more based on that iMovie is more of a like You're taking video with your phone of your vacation and you want to like edit it together And so here's the kind of defaults. We think you'd like on that But so that's I don't know if that explains it very well No, I think that does a does a good job the the screen capture feature is super easy in Camtasia I I do know people for screen capture who also use open broadcast or X split Both of those have screen capture, but it puts the screen capture plus the basic editing and the animation Really easy to use into one package But it's probably the best screen capture software out there Yep. Yeah Were there other questions about the animation part? something on the With regards to marketing and trying to get the videos out there is it worth putting some time into Facebook ads to target This is this is a piece we can maybe we should have a like mini discussion at the end of the presentation about Promotion and marketing of the videos is because I think there's some place that we need to actually improve on and learn it from other people if they have any tips like Promoting the videos on Facebook seems like Like yeah, obviously yes do it right like Facebook ads is like a step further that I don't think our organization is Ready for or start unless you know what more than I do I don't know. Let's have a discussion about this at the at the end I've been working with another organization that is actually doing some field testing on Facebook ads, but Personally the the outreach and marketing of getting a community of people that can share it that care about kind of your client group Matters so much more than than five dollars on Facebook because Facebook really loves people and Sharing content from people and makes Organizations including nonprofits pay to play if you can get people to share your stuff. It will go so much further than a Facebook ad You can definitely get some advantages out of that Yeah, that's a great insight And you know, I mean this this field testing Process is again where where I'm coming from like being a hotline attorney where I'm talking to hundreds of people a year Calling at the emergency level When you know, maybe they've gotten the eviction notice.  It's too late. So I I'm I really believe that like taking these videos out into the community and going to a senior actually going to where people are showing it to people and being there in person to Get feedback on the video itself is it just It it changed my whole perspective on what these things are capable of doing I'm not saying it. I think like oh videos are the answer forever, but I like I think like now It's essential to do that community Engagement and community work, which means actually leaving the office and going there. So this I Describe it in the guide and this is I'm just gonna, you know, you start with the flyer. You say here's what we can offer this information we actually did For these tests offer gift cards to a local grocery Ask the people at the community center like where would it would be the best place? just to you know show people that we value their their contribution and You know making a comfortable confidential space in that senior center or community center or farm worker residents That's what we tried to do.  You're not you're not you're not intelligent or Or this because we're the lawyers and we're the authority and you need to like hear from us it's like the whole point is like whether they can understand their legal issue and and Come to a place that they you know a resolution that they want so We're testing the video if it if it doesn't make sense. That's not your fault That's ours like we we didn't do we didn't create the right video. So I always start out with that Set up there set it up so that like everybody knows that like You know We're not just making these things for fun. We want them to work and then of course the anonymity and confidentiality So like the way we do tests. I don't like take people's personal data. I don't like write their name down. I you know We we don't like connect what they're gonna what they're saying with them And I think you have to like convey in that field test that like, you know You can speak freely about the video But I'm not gonna like come back later and say like, you know, you mentioned that and of course it's voluntary and so I always Talk about because we used an audio recorder We we didn't do it at first and then we started doing it to make the transcript And I think it actually really helped a lot but just explaining to people This is completely voluntary if you want to get up and leave that's totally fine You can you can still have the coffee you can have a donut like but like don't sit here and be uncomfortable like it's up to you The whole point is we want to make this like a better video for other people in your situation other seniors other DV survivors So those little speeches are in the guide. I think that you know, obviously you don't have to like say those things but that's a really good way to Explain what we're doing here and like I got a lot of good I think that people really opened up and gave us much better feedback on our videos after setting it up that way It looks like there's an audience comment about Facebook. Do you see that start? Yes That Facebook has The ability to let you target to particular demographics, which is which is very true there that Yes You have a lot of flexibility in where who Sees those things through Facebook ads strongly agree there that is very useful Especially from the outreach perspective if you want a particular group of individuals to see it Well, and I kind of honestly I'm kind of wondering now and maybe we can again talk about it in that promotional discussion later like I Wondered if these things could be done through something like Facebook live or the video a lot, you know what I mean Like a group of people. I don't know. I don't it'd be a total another type of situation, but like Because so much I think that there is some opportunity to do Kind of streaming testing of videos. I have not done anything in in that space But the technology is definitely there. I've done it for like a website UX testing with people where I get to see their webcam. They're looking at the Site itself. I can also see where their cursor is and what they're doing on the site so I've used it in other contexts. I just haven't used it with regards to videos So I I think there's definitely some potential there Yeah, so for now, I mean like what we had done is like actually Physically being in the room with people which I think is like also a vital thing and you can't just I Now think we should be doing this with most of our publications. Our groups were from range from 8 to 20 One to one and a half hours after that. I think everybody's energy. It just you know the talking kind of Faulters and That's about the The logistics of it I Think doing one field test for each is like essential doing more is better until you get that saturation of like, okay We keep hearing the same comments. I think we got all the information. We're gonna get let's change the video now like based on What we've heard I'm gonna talk a little bit more about that in just a second But just this is another just sort of a logistical aid that I you know found helpful in my own Field tests, which is like here's a checklist of things to bring, you know And so like it this is in the guide and you can just like here's the stuff to bring before you go so HDMI cable to connect to a flat-screen TV it seems like a lot of senior centers and places that we were going Had a flat-screen TV that we could connect our laptop to rather than using a projector, but you know, we've used projectors as well So this whole process and this is where this is not so like technology tips or anything but just like well, what do you do in this discussion now? But I am a lawyer so and I do talk to a lot of clients And so I kind of know like here's what like questions are probably going to come up But like when you open up a discussion and you're just showed a video on a power of attorney document or like income tax issues or The sectioning voucher program You're giving legal information You're gonna get a lot of people right away say well look that here's my legal issue or like here I have a question about this and the answer is something that's going to be like legal information or advice Yeah, and we can't give advice in this kind of context. We can only give general information but even that it's like You know, we're not talking about the video. We're talking about this particular like legal situation and so the way I handle that these field tests is just Just say first we're going to talk about this video because we really need to be able to improve it We're going to talk about stuff about videos specifically this one and then in general and then that's a really good legal question I'm going to write it down or have my assistant write it down at the end We're going to have a Q&A and we're going to talk about we're going to try to get to as many of those as we can and that's That's kind of how I ended up sort of dividing the session and so I often I had an assistant who was like a Social worker in our organization and that was extremely helpful and I think like when I've Researched how to do field tests. There's usually it's but I mean it's almost always better to have two people because then somebody can be a facilitator having that empathetic eye contact and talking to people and and like facilitating the discussion getting the feedback from the audience and then somebody else is taking notes and then able to like handle this sort of like as people come in, you know, or as people need to leave and I have some sample questions at the end also in the guide.  Has anybody ever like tried to find the answer to a legal question by going on the internet?  I like I got into a really honest discussions with people to find out like what what is this stuff that we're doing and does it even Is it worthwhile and should we do more in what kind? You know The analysis of the feedback afterwards is where you really get Start to use All parts of your brain I think and like this is where I think that recording it with audio I'm going to show you the like particular audio recorder that we used in just a second, but I actually sat down and made transcripts. I can type You know pretty quickly. It's okay for me to make a transcript.  So I Don't know if you like maybe start you have some Ideas about transcription software or something. I know there exists But like I just did it kind of like old-fashioned way of like stop And this is where I use a video editing software to to stop the audio Type it down and then play it again Do you know any software transcription? So I just did a session at equal justice works Or EJ equal justice conference one of my 50 tech tips was a application called otter That it does voice transcription and it specializes in noticing multiple speakers so it you can run it during a meeting during a session and it will Attempt to give you what it thinks by listening to people who's talking and what they're saying and then you've got a starting transcript to go back and clean up and it is so much easier to use a Slightly jumbled like not perfect transcript. They got starting from scratch so otter is the name of the application I strongly recommend it and and You know, I mean we got bad feedback I mean not we had feedback that like critiqued our videos I should say not bad feedback, but like feedback that said you guys are not you know, that doesn't make sense I'm still confused like what like what are you talking about like and I love hearing that because Wow, I'm glad and we are hearing it now because otherwise we just put this thing on YouTube and say well, I guess that that solves our Our Educational problem there, but like here people say like, you know You keep saying caseworker and especially when we're talking like through an interpreter an interpreted video like just Spanish we had like a Spanish speaking audience and they're saying like you're using this word to describe like what I'm supposed to do I supposed to go to the housing authority and like explain something to them But I don't know who that person is. Is it a social worker? Wow, okay So we went back and changed, you know with the help of our interpreter and our translator Like what how do we call this person because it's we're totally not doing a good job with our first round So that's something where like I feel like we kind of like maybe save this video from like being completely useless I mean, I mean that's like extreme, but like we heard a lot of stuff like that Other times we heard like, you know what this actually made a lot of sense Now I kind of get it and again people who heard who told us over and over like I'm a visual learner Like thank you so much. Like can you please make more of this? Can you make a video about topic XYZ? We heard that a lot in our field test Yeah, and so then we change the video we have tried putting surveys on the end of videos No, nobody watch it. Nobody fills out the surveys. We've tried asking for feedback other ways this is by far has Gives us a lot of information that other traditional ways of trying to get feedback have just failed comparatively Yeah, I mean once you get into the disclaimer and stuff at the end and credits I don't think people are gonna get to that survey I mean like I know that we could do more of like at the beginning like hey if you have comments please like you know in the Let us know in the below like YouTube videos do but we haven't had that we haven't made that leap But just a lot of the stuff that we found from getting our feedback. I mean basically There's like kind of like four main groups there's like these gaps where it's like somebody is like hey, I have a question and you know You didn't talk about it at all in the video and you should have because there it is somebody's asking it, right? it's a basic legal question and so a piece of information that you just left out because When you and the other attorneys wrote it it seemed like that was complete and you you need to put it in or like You know like you think you're explaining it really well like here's what the word durable means when we're talking about a durable power of Attorney document that's why it's important to have it on that, you know And we have this explanation about it and we put it on the screen and then right away like five people afterwards are asking like Wait, what is durable mean? Okay, the video didn't do its job, right? So then that's like a mishap where you need to like either like change the animation or like explain it differently Maybe they need to like use Primacy or emphasis repeat it or put it at the front and there's various ways you can change it to like, you know correct that That misinformation that you're giving right of course cause cultural context, you know Like when people explain like you had no idea but like when they're saying like you know what there's we're not going to go Talk to the housing authority because we're afraid of what they're going to do to us. It's like, oh, you know We made this video thinking like here's the The best way to convey the information we need even account for this huge actual real emotional response to what we're saying That's how we need to kind of read like read traffic this whole thing and then of course there's direct recommendations like I Can't read that lettering on that for that font like oh, okay. That's an access issue. We need to make those change That's pretty easy to make right So so we did in our guide we have just Go ahead Comments include like Make sure to like motivate compensate Individuals gift card something like that is is definitely a good idea as part of it Also anything you can do to make it fun or interactive Asking questions quizzes that type of stuff Is definitely useful also Because if you're gonna be working with people for an hour Having some different activities or different ways to do it is helpful. Oh, yeah I want to learn more about this Kahoot or mentee that somebody brought up So the Recommended software sheet I presented at the end of the guide It's just and you know, and this will probably be obsolete in a year or two. We'll have to change it which is fine but Just a couple things that helped us or helped me through this whole project was the explainer Academy which is Common craft has a lot of awesome videos, which probably a lot of you know about There's a couple classes on there about How to explain how to make instructional videos take information that like Makes a lot of sense to you, but you have that Curse of knowledge where you forget what it's like to not know that thing that you've studied for years Like that's what lawyers are afflicted with a lot. So Getting it down into a minute, you know Understanding where your audience is I learned a lot through that explanation master course and the media maker course is like It's goes even further to talk about that step-by-step animation using PowerPoints own animations. And so that's a recommendation I'd also say reaching your readers, which we already covered it. That's where we started But again, like it's they've done a lot of good work And I think that's a guide that's essential if you're going to try to do anything like this, but another one Is this fifth edition? Maybe they'll come out with another one soon Called focus groups a practical guide for applied research and this is kind of more advanced And it's not talking about legal services organizations necessarily, but it is talking about in the community and and getting Feedback from and you know focus groups sometimes has a negative connotation to some people but basically it's like asking people if it actually helps and and then How to analyze those transcripts how to like see those patterns and It has a lot of logistical tips too that I learned from like You can't go really much longer than an hour and a half hour and a half like the a group of people is just not going to be able to like Pay attention and probably you won't either as the facilitator And this is just sort of a sample spreadsheet. I mean like this is a Package that you could get you like to making like all the videos that we've made That's how much it would cost, you know, and probably you already have a computer in your office, but that's sort of a That would be a good video suite production suite, I think I don't know sorry you have anything to add to this I strongly strongly agree The the computer price might seem a little high to people initially But when you're doing video production your choke point is going to be your computer and Kind of the app off the rack computer that you're buying for advocates will not work their computer will shut down It will be unusable for hours at a time. It's well worth getting a decent custom Computer that has a good video card to it to do video editing Recording that type of stuff Microphone we definitely already talked about I I recommend instead of speakers over a year Headphones that give you a little bit higher quality, but about a hundred and fifty dollars after that you're diminishing returns for anything else from it But this this can easily get you there the explainer Academy is really The best training that's out there If you have somebody who really wants to learn about this, that's a great way to do it And the speakers are in this context I was using them sometimes in the field test if we needed to use a projector But using a flat screen TV with its own audio system like then that's that's better than the computer speakers And I this audio recorder this task cam DR5. I forgot to show a picture of it It's on the guide itself Let me see if I can there it is On the left that little mini recorder is pretty powerful I'd have it up front like next to the computer Could I tell people like you know we're recording this, but I'm not I don't know your names I'm not gonna like match it up. I just just to get do a better job of remembering what you're saying I'm recording this audio. Does anybody have any objections to that? nobody ever did and I would leave it up there and I could pretty much record most of the voices in in like a room of 20 people with people coming in and out and shuffling papers and eating so I I don't know And that's pretty amazing recorder. I think and it like just connects with the USB to your computer So You know part of our grant we were going to come up with a view ability instrument Which is sort of a checklist just like again for people who have like I don't know never really done that Thought about how do I analyze one of these videos or do the field test? I've based it on this readability instrument from transcend, which is a really good way to like Analyze your printed materials it talks about everything from serif fonts to you know headings and subheadings and so At the end of our guide we have this It's kind of to checklist really on the left It's like once you made your first draft a video or your script even like kind of go through and say here's just like basic principles of You know plain information video Techniques and I mean using large font making it readable making accessible You know make sure the videos are not Distracting but actually help tell the story or the or the information and that's on the last and then Sample questions. I mean really if you could do worse if you're going to do your very first field test Then just asking these exact questions When you're in a group of people like after you show the video you just say so Did it go by too fast or was it just right where they're you know And so there's the questions that you can use you could use this Actual guide in the field test. Do you know where to look next? Would you share this video with a friend? You know, how would you share it? Would you share it through what's app? Would you give them a link all of those things can give you a wealth of information that you didn't have before when you just Put it out there on YouTube in your office like going out and asking people I think that's the basically the whole point of this project and I'm convinced ever like more than ever that like it's essential to Make sure that there's like a Conversational engagement between your client communities and your legal services organization. So these things aren't just like out there doing You know making you feel good because you made them, but like they're not really helping So The guide again is available to download. Hopefully you'll be able to update it as needed Sorry, I wanted to leave like some room for a discussion because it sounded like there was a lot of ideas About promotion and marketing and I kind of wanted to hear about that too I can talk about anything else though that we already covered because I think there's plenty of time left Yeah, if anybody's got questions, please feel free to post those From my personal experience on YouTube I think that it is extremely important to ask people questions at the end of a video and ask for feedback directly that is not something that our program has been comfortable with at this point mostly because of the Staffing issues around responding to comments that type of stuff But in with other organizations that I've worked with and on personal projects the YouTube community is very very very willing to give you lots of feedback and that is a it's a really good way to Get people invested in your channel overall and once people start commenting on the things that you're doing They are more likely to see your future videos to share them Creating that interactive community helps with marketing a lot a lot of the kits that I've seen other channels get are from They're kind of super fans people who were helped by something that they Had who share that with their community on Facebook or somewhere else Yeah, I think that's a I mean a great point and you're right like we haven't It's almost like this place. We just haven't gone yet at our organization, but we I would I think it's going to be if we ever do a Breakthrough because if once we develop the time and staffing to have people to do that engagement right because it takes time and Intelligent energy to like okay Moderate the discussion but also respond to it and I think there's just so much valuable Potential there to get ideas from people about how these things are working and We haven't we haven't done it yet So but I also like really find value in the in-person interaction as well And we continue to do some of that because we do a community outreach and we go to places and say like here's here's some information about Landlord tenant law, you know general tips to avoid the emergency late later, and I know I'm always kind you know I have asked on Continue the sort of field testing like would you would you find this information more helpful if we made a video about it and like The lot of positive. Yes, that would be great because like I'd like You know you present this like print thing to me and like it's just not helping me because I can't get through the like Three pages and so like that's just a reality for a lot of people so Yeah, and you're right there there is a there is a staffing time issue If people comment on your videos you need someone who is there in order to hide things that might be disclosing too much personal information and to respond quickly so that they Stay involved and engaged So adding that level of asking is a it is a different time commitment entirely so Quickly what was the what was the most? Surprising response that you got from somebody out of the focus groups The surprise and most surprising response. Yeah Well, I think I covered some of them I mean like, you know our our video about the section 8 voucher It was surprising to hear it like The whole concept of where we were trying to explain that you have to report information To the how to your case worker at the housing authority, which To us lawyers seem to make like perfect sense. It was just kind of like a lot of people were not aware of like Where is the housing authority? Is it a person? Is it a building? How do you go there? Like who are we talking about? I don't want to go there and it's like there's some like Larger issues going on that we need to do it address so that was like surprising and that like oh wow What like we kind of missed the mark when we made our first round of this video? Talking to the farm worker community and finding out that like, you know, we did a couple tests with in that community and you know finding out that like YouTube is not a place to like go get at least in the the the groups that we talked to That's not a good place to like go get legal information But if a video was like made and like said here's a video and shared through WhatsApp Then people would be like, yeah, I'd show this with a friend because a lot of we need to know this So there's that sort of like how do people access information and the internet and videos in general that was kind of surprising and I Think with the power of attorney documents and the advanced directives. I think those were just like I don't know kind of playing Pretty well then like they're they're a little different because they walk through a form Like they have this is the actual form and that's where use temptation like here's what this says here's what this says and I mean it wasn't necessarily Surprising but it was nice to know that like people really thought that was a good use of a Video and like because they could stop and start and a lot of these senior centers had computer Centers area like a couple computers to use and so people were like, yeah, this is great because I can I can rewatch it over here on these computers No, I don't know that ability to share it via WhatsApp or on and on the Finding out how client communities are using technology Is just really really important because we want to stay as as relevant and we want to go to them So one of the big mistakes that LSN Pat made before We Before I took over the program was we tried to keep everything in our own place and didn't make it really easy to share and Putting it out there for our community on YouTube meant that the views went way up And it was much easier to share and much easier to see on a mobile But figuring out what a particular client community what technology they're using in some cases It makes much more sense to publish things on as a Facebook video or that it does On YouTube like figure out where you need to go in order to share these things online for them to be successful Yeah, and I mean like I don't know over the years like because I use these animations Like I've had a lot of feedback mostly from attorneys or where people are like, you know what? These things look kind of cartoony and they're not really serious and things like that, right? Like have you ever asked people with whether they like this or not, you know and like Now I did and like I never had anybody say this is the meaning or these cartoons are like not I mean, I had feedback like we know that this is serious like but these cards The animations are fine. Like we don't need an actual A lawyer's head talking, you know to convey like oh, this is legal if the legal authority telling us what what so I mean, I guess that was kind of surprising too No, I I've definitely run into that also that There there is a tendency to generalize What one thinks is good versus what one Believes that it will be good for a client and getting that the client's feedback instead of a lawyer's feedback is so essential Yeah, yeah, we we worked on a project recently from Ed from a class that had done a full year Kind of capstone project and one of their big problems was all of their user testing What students and lawyers in the legal aid Office they didn't actually reach out to clients So it was very difficult to evaluate their project at the end because all of the surveys were all internal It's more work to go out to clients, but you're gonna get a whole different perspective. That is just essential Yeah, so there was a question here. Are you using analytics to see which methods work best like heat maps or Where users spend most time on pages? I've done that for website testing. I haven't Seen that used in the video space, but in the in videos YouTube gives you incredible analytics When people enter what areas they might be bookmarking and sharing and when people drop off So the internal YouTube analytics we can see that if we put a graphic up there That happens to be terrible or too many words or something else that that user engagement just drops and we start losing people So the analytics from YouTube are great With regard to focus grouping though, I haven't I've seen that done in the web design space But I haven't used that in the video space How about you Daniel? I mean I haven't I I look at those analytics sometime and kind of it's it I mean, it's an amazing trove of data, but like I haven't used it as much as Possible to like okay now should like Change our promotional techniques or like how what the content even and I think that's I Guess just a staffing and time issue because I have you know like as soon as this grant ended I went into it Like a training program where I'm like full-time attorney right now. I'm not doing anything on the like informational outreach except You know going to a community and doing an outreach as part of being an attorney, but like now I'm just doing legal work So I don't Have the time in this particular six months to do The stuff that I would want to do on that to make it really worthwhile. I mean like but yeah ideally We could have like a We could make these videos very quickly a lot of them a lot of short videos I think right like much like travel videos or cooking videos that you see on YouTube right or that I watch right like a New entry like every few days or every week right with one little bit of information Or like and connected in it sort of a larger narrative of like here's a here's a Northwest Justice Projects You know legal informational video channel Please make comments below and I think if we got to that point like we would be using those analytics a lot more, right? Sorry, I mean wouldn't you say I I definitely agree and the potential outreach to clients and Helping those individuals that aren't able to make a call during the nine to five of our hotline or Reaching them on the weekends or other times is just incredible Currently we've had the channel up for a few years now and we're a little bit over a hundred and twenty seven thousand views on Northwest Justice Projects And that's just with some part-time on staff towards it, but if you really viewed this as a Direct form of client services that had kind of the full-time staff strategic plan analytics feedback as part of it I I think you could easily Be up to that every few months not every few years you could be Have a significant number of people viewing those all the time Because yeah, and then you'd be able to use those analytics and say okay We're getting so many people watching this in this county or region in this area this you know in this city Why you know find out why like or okay? This just this concludes the debate Everybody's using their phones and nobody's looking on computers or that's what analytics might be able to tell you, right? Like which I think we're kind of like getting there like I think people are using more mobile to like access our site But we don't you know like if we had that more Active engagement like that would be valuable and it would just I think you know I think I just kind of have this sense through the the like minimal efforts that we have made Using those that like there's a lot of information there that we could use and we just haven't gotten there yet Yep, definitely Okay It any any last questions before we wrap things up here That doesn't look like it The handouts are available for download if you've got any future questions, please feel free to ask us a Lot of the resources are available over on share law video org. I'm putting another link in the chat to that We are doing another video related training. That's gonna be More like about a half an hour with some open discussion afterwards Coming up here. It is just 20 quick tips. It's gonna be one slide per tip a URL Somewhere where you can find out a better way to do thumbnails or Useful software that makes this stuff easy to do on an iPhone that type of stuff and that One is coming up. Let me double check the date on it. It is June 20th, so we're gonna go over the share law video website a little bit Make sure people are familiar with it that it's easy for people to give us feedback if there's any ways to improve it And then 20 quick tips on making videos I will mention these guides, but they're gonna be separate things from what we really went over here for the last hour So if you're interested in that, please register Thank you so much Daniel and greatly appreciate having you Here to share this with the community and please feel free to reach out to either myself or Daniel with any questions Related to video production between us We've done hundreds of YouTube videos at this point and would love to get more engagement in this online format for our client communities