Cool. Okay. So welcome to the Jenkins UX SIG meeting for August 17th here. I'll just clean this up a little bit. I'll just put the link into the chat case anyone doesn't have it. So you feel free to add any topics that you want to go through to the chat. We'll start with the first topic on here, security reviews for UX, pull requests, WEDIC. Yep. So the current status is pretty simple. I think we have three open pull requests at the moment or something like this. The other were reviewed before some bugs were found but nothing really related to security issue this time as far as I know. The two big ones are still waiting so for more final version of the pull request before the real security audit done there. So from my point of view at least it seems to be a pretty good. Okay. So especially, Tim, Daniel, if you have some insight forward about the process, if we don't have to say. Right. So, for example, in a fairly new PR around tool tips. Sorry, not tool tips. The annotations on links on the Manage Jenkins page. What are they called? Badges. Yeah, those badges. So as implemented, there would be an HTML injection vulnerability. If implementers are unaware of that. So, but they're still ongoing discussion whether this should be string valued at all or whether we should only allow numbers. And if it's string valued, it can escape the value right there in current say it's plain text valued. So either way works but yeah this is something that I brought up in review here. As far as I'm concerned this pull request isn't far enough along to make a final determination. But this is one where reviewing it with an eye towards potential security issues wasn't a bad idea. I haven't been put in a security review things on the really trivial ones which I'm assuming is okay with things like removing a line of CSS removing some links. Just to skip some of that as an example is. It's usually not a label. Yes. Yeah, I remove the uplink haven't bothered. I'm just going to go through a couple of similar ones where people just done minus CSS tweaks. In terms of UX improvements, Jan, you've just joined welcome. Did you want to take over for that we could go through any of the open pull requests or anything new that you've got. Yeah, I'm not anything major to show. At least running locally but we're good to for the active PRs. I might have a quick prototype to demonstrate later I just need to see kind of what state it's in right now. I'll just do that in the background. So, of the open PRs we've got what would you want to go through. So there's the up or first was the up pages to quite trivial one. Sure. So, yeah, it's very minor. Well, it's about replacing the up arrow on the people page on the user configuration page here. So replacing the up arrow with the people icon. This one seems quite odd in general because I feel like in general there's not really an it's not really descended from the people page. For most people accessing out. I don't know whether that I don't think people would actually we generally don't often don't want people accessing that page. Because it loads all the users. And there's not really any need for general users to actually view that page ever I would say. I'm not sure if you've got any thoughts on that or whether you just want to change the icon to be the people icon. I'm going to be ready. I hope the top of my head, probably just replacing the icon makes makes the most sense. Just comments at the bottom. That seems, seems sensible to me. Okay. breadcrumb. Oops. I think there's some. So just for context. What are we currently doing. We're kind of just just having a look through just see if we can unblock or move along some of the open pull requests, unless anyone's got any other. Well, so I guess that's more this topic down here stole UX pull requests if we can just review some of those quickly. And then I mean, there are certainly still pull requests but I'm not sure how much sense it makes to look at once that got updated 18 minutes ago. Sure. Yo, I had, I mean, I hadn't seen that one till then. I think this one we had quite a lot of discussion on the last time but yarn wasn't here. There's been a bit of chat in getter but be good if we can find a way forward on this one. So this is the one about moving the icons to the sidebar and the search bar to the top and center with the title in the sidebar. The last context and getter was about judging success for an experiment. And then young editor reply here about that. I'm not sure how. I mean, done responded but I'm not sure whether it's an answer. Because if we're looking for user feedback as an as an unrelated example we have seen extremely negative user feedback on the monochrome icons.  So what's the, what's the meaning of user feedback for UI changes. I guess if we could kind of gather that feedback and kind of. I'm not sure that we might be on like issues to Jenkins, but if we kind of categorize that and keep it in one place and kind of draw attention to it in some way that'd be. Daniel specific to the OSS update or does that include the CI. I don't know whether what what feedback cloud business getting from customers. Where did that, where did that come from. Like random poor request comment. There is feedback also not the source issues and the thing that makes it complicated Christina is that obviously customers are aware that cloud BCI is Jenkins plus some stuff. So it may as well be customers who are complaining through the open source channels, or it's just Jenkins open source users we don't know but it is coming. I am seeing it through open source channels. I don't know what a copy support and field or say it be worth like do you ever do. This story on it's nice to meet you this is the first time I'm just the senior designer over here that works with CI. So I just attend to kind of be able to kind of get an ear on what's happening in the open source and how I can support it. I don't have a copy site. Anyway, do we have a process in place for generating issues or generating generating tasks that aren't necessarily development nature but that I'm more like, because I would kind of want to do a bit of a dig into maybe doing customer research sessions and gather some info there to see where that type of feedback is coming from before we evaluate whether that's actually something that's worth acting on. Does that make any sense. Would that be useful. I think so yeah. Oftentimes like what people will say online. It's very easy to complain because in customer sessions. I mean of course then this is a different user group right so it could be vastly different experiences and perceptions but so far the feedback has been quite positive. So I would just want to make sure that we're any any action that came from those like complaints. So, I'm just just in case I don't think we should be discussing the monochrome icons here it's just coming from young saying well, if we get feedback in Jira, for example, then we can adjust if the feedback is negative. And, and I'm saying, well, there was this other change not too long ago, where we got negative feedback and we're not acting on it so are we only selectively looking at the feedback. If there is no way that we provide where users can say I like this in addition to I don't like this because obviously people will complain if they don't like something and if they like something they will just accept it and move on.  And that's something that I brought up in Gitter. We have probably a feedback mechanism inside Jenkins, that highlights new changes, especially the experimental ones and says, Hey, how do you like this is this good is this bad. This is something I'm prototyping and pushing through in CI. So it's maybe something that we could, you know, make available to at least the process make available to the open source. If they'd find it helpful. It would be useful then to at least even be able to draw correlations between the type of, you know, the scale of user just that the type of users and who tend to have that feedback. I think we'd want for just to vet any feedback, whether it's icons or future work so if that would work, I can pass that kind of research along so that maybe it could be used in the open source. Right, that would be useful. I don't think we have a do we have an internal channel for the for the UX work at Lopez just to make then I could join. Otherwise just it's kind of formalize interval krs for for me for tracking. So here to remind me but otherwise I'll make a note of it and maybe follow up with Mark, maybe on how best to cross pollinate. Makes sense. So we have mechanisms in Jenkins that can be used to for people to provide feedback or to send data to the Jenkins project on a very high level that we could hook into although the problem there is that it is tied currently to the usage statistics feature so that could be a bit of a mess so we may need something completely new that we don't have yet in Jenkins. And obviously if it is in Jenkins. We will also need to report to the Jenkins project so the folks we should look in there are like Damian was working on Jenkins project infrastructure. And that can then be reused simply in cloud based products by simply being a part of and then also being part of the products. Yeah, I think that would be very valuable so even for something like the icons right if if if what you're hearing is that people like it. And I'm seeing the very vocal few who absolutely hate it. Like, you could see how you could start to and this is why like before I action anything I would want to make sure that we're not kind of getting things in a vacuum because I may be in a vacuum of a certain type of user. And it doesn't mean that only they should be informing our decisions. So we have to like, make sure we're hearing everybody and find something in between. So this is a touch base of a Damian and Mark. Awesome. It's all for me. So that would be useful for acting on feedback that we're all just getting more feedback mostly. I guess, so specifically in this poor quest. I don't think, I mean, just because it's good to get feedback on these sort of changes but I think the main was the main thing that was holding this up was it just the title or was there anything else holding this progress stop. When you say title what do you mean the title in the sidebar in the side panel. I mean the side panel is. Oh right the title in the side panel was the one thing and the other thing was the separator, which is for example currently not usable in anything that is extensible. Right, so if we want to have the separator as part of what side panels can contain we need a way to have that be part of the actionable interface for example. In the side panels just showing a link to update center at the moment right. I scrolled on a bit I think there's a separate one that has everything. Maybe the video maybe. Probably not. Maybe it's further down to a picture, but I'm pretty sure it's just a line that has a link to update center. And yarns planning to mostly get rid of that link later by inlining it into the inlining the information into the table. The problem with I guess not having a separator is that these are. Well, I guess you could just put it in there. There's a almost kind of like their tabs whereas it's a different page which is why it's separated. I mean the explanation makes sense it's just, it's this one place in Jenkins that nowhere else, and it's not working with actionable and the existing extension mechanism, and so on. So this isn't about the benefits of the specific thing but how it integrates into Jenkins more generally. And have you got any thoughts on it. Yeah, like like Tim said this is going to stop that solution, and just so we can separate the kind of permanent items, I guess we can call them at the top so you've got the active, the updates available in still advanced. So you can separate those visually from the update center. In terms of that, thank you to a separate page altogether. In terms of extending the API to support separators. I'm happy to do that. It's just whether other pages on Jenkins would benefit from having that separate. Because the goal is generally to shorten that sidebar rather than lengthen it. That's not on really so probably wouldn't want to encourage other developers to start separating items whereas we should be kind of trying to find better ways of exploring or showing that kind of information. So another option how we could get this effect without needing a separator could be to have nested site panel items like we have for whiteboard workspace. We also have for the plain text log, which are basically, there's basically a tree of site panel items that exists in some places in Jenkins. So that way, install plugins advanced settings could be shown as part of the are available plugins can be short as part of plug in manager, while the other top level item would be the update center. And that's not a separator required because the tree structure makes it clear what's related. I'm not sure it needs to be discussed in this meeting though. Just just the thought if you want to move this forward without the separator. It probably makes sense for us to look into the feedback mechanism rather early because the more changes and the more experiments we publish without having a feedback mechanism. The worst the situation will be because why would anyone provide feedback on something they've been using for months. Yeah. Any thoughts on what to do about the title, Jan. I think for this page there isn't really a place to have the title really of them on the left side. We have that kind of giant search bar in the center. Just so it kind of gets the users kind of focus straight away. See, I don't know I can't think of a better spot for the title. I'm not really going to be on the, on the left, you know, but what do you guys think. My only concern is that it would open up a can of worms for other pages. I think young you weren't here I think it was in the last meeting right where we already discussed in quite some detail potential issues with having the title in the site panel. For example the resulting length limitations, especially in more both languages, stuff like that. So for example, if we move the title into the site panel on all pages what does it look like. On job pages where the job name is the page title and job names can be extremely long and very difficult to break because people like their word separation using underscores which are not really easily breakable with normal rules, and so on. So I don't want to reopen this particular can of worms I just want to mention this was something that we discussed in some detail last time where quite a few concerns exist with having the title in the site panel. Obviously on this page. But if, if this is something that should be done more on more and more perhaps, ultimately all pages of Jenkins, then these are problems we need to figure out an answer for. I managed to watch the last meeting. And so I managed to capture all your points really. And I responded on on the ghetto as well I'm not sure if you had all seen. Like you said this this page, it works with the head because plugins as a title isn't particularly long. And be effort for the job page and whatnot if you have a kind of crazy job name. It wouldn't handle it. At least in this kind of current implementation so it would be worth looking at how we could kind of work around that or there's a better way of doing it. I think some pages have descriptions to associate the option the ability to add a description as well. Right. So suddenly all the links start pushing down the tension below the fold. It could be that the plug and manager pages unique enough to stand alone with it in the sidebar with no problem. But I would agree that like future pages like couldn't hurt to have further discussion. That was my two cents my opinion is only worth it. I wouldn't mind actually if we had the time to stay potentially just to go over a small prototype for the kind of project page. It's pretty much like a wiring at this point but it's just an idea of kind of cards that we spoke about a few months back on the next meetings. Sorry for this time. Yeah, we've got time for that. I think I guess the main thing here is just trying to work out a way forward on the support request is the main one that probably not too much hopefully not too much work to unblock this one. Listen, have you got enough to go away with young to figure out something or do we need to figure out page titles or so for the title. If if we kind of class this page as being me like Christina said, then that I could stand like it's compared to the rest of Jenkins the plug in managers is quite a unique page. It's more like a storefront then kind of managing builds or whatever. From that viewpoint it could be seen as it kind of requiring a more unique layout. And then for the separator. I have no issues with being being part of the API. And I wouldn't want to encourage developers to actually use it unless there's a situation that kind of needs it like where we have the update center being separated from the top four items. Yeah, I think I only make sense on custom pages and do we need to bring that in. Okay, so how about this. We change all the labels of update center to plug in manager and call it the download progress page of the plug in manager and otherwise pretend it's the exact same thing. Yeah, that could work. It does come up in breadcrumbs as updates into we could either. That's that's the point you can rename the label. You just make the label also plug in manager and call it the download progress page because that's basically what it is. Yeah, yeah. I think that's probably a nice solution. Review what the API offers, however, both of these have API is and so that could be awkward having the download progress page having an API that has little to do with downloads but I think it's the jobs. So, it might actually work. So perhaps that would be a way forward and then we you don't need a separator, because the plug in manager suddenly has a download progress page. Yeah, I think that works. Yeah, sounds good to me. And are you happy Daniel is the title of the title of this page is quite special. I don't think happy as the word. Are you okay with that. Are you okay with that. I mean, at this point it's just another page like all of them, or another side panel like all of them right there's nothing special about this side panel compared to the job configuration. As I explained job configuration has a special side panel that is the like the what used to be the scroll spy on top. And so it kind of made sense there but now it's just a regular side panel why does this have. And if you scroll down you will see how the site panel actually progresses through the different options right, which is very different from the usual go to a different page side panel that other pages and Jenkins have. And so this kind of, I thought this signified this special kind of side panel as well and now you apply this to plug in manager why, why does plug in manager have it but not system log. For example, system log is also a sort of unique page on manage Jenkins. Why does this not have the title in the side panel. And I think for that page it could potentially have the title in the side panel about too much issue. Then what would you do with the buttons then I guess. I guess I'll just keep that kind of top pro kind of blank I guess. So, if I show that prototype late you'll kind of have a similar kind of theme to that you have the controls on the right but the kind of title on the left. Yeah, yeah. And now do you think. If there's time. Just bear in mind it's not like kind of anywhere near feature complete or developed it's just like a refiger at this point. Just wanted to get some feedback on it if it's demo it kind of next month. Yeah, I'll share my screen. I'm going to. So you will see my screen. Yes. So it looks quite a bit different what we've got currently. The idea behind it is to kind of cut down on white space that we have on the build page or the project page as we currently have kind of controls currently everywhere. So you can visualize kind of the controls aspects you've got to kind of build a parameter option configure and kind of generic options are not really thought of there. And kind of put the most kind of important information kind of center stage. So for this kind of project, we have the stage for you plug in. It's kind of massive canvas so it can display all of its information. And then instead of rather having kind of sidebar links traditionally have the contents of those pages is instead visible on the project page itself. So kind of rather than clicking through different pages. You can go down to see different information, such as the test result trend, all the stages for example. Kind of nice things that you scale to say if you have a really large monitor, you get more information. If you're on a phone, you kind of get a view suited towards your kind of form factor. But that doesn't work. It's just a really hastily front end approach type. I love the concept behind it. It looks pretty. I think the main problems are worse going to be how do you get the plugins to fit in and behave and go and like, do you provide areas for these sort of things? Do you make it configurable so people can choose what they want? Or is there like specific areas and sizes that they're allowed and they hook into because currently it's just a hot mess on a table. It's literally a table where plugins dump themselves in certain areas and break layouts like a certain plugin going somewhere can break the layout and through silly things. And how do you, I guess you have those, or are these like key actions or something that appear there and if a plugin has a super key action, they can put themselves there or just all actions appear in the little Hamburg menu. I think it was right because it suggested back in the day that we kind of have it kind of customizable. I think that was early. And then that obviously had lots of complexity, but I also kind of agree. I think Jenkins as a service is quite complex. So you kind of need that fine green control over what's visible. Yeah, I guess it's kind of a, yes, it's kind of letting you build your own dashboard sort of thing. I think, I mean, for me, I think it should be sensible default and be nice if you can customize it in some way and plugins shouldn't just dump themselves on there just because they can. I think, I mean, this page is well due a overhaul. It's a mess and the, yeah, the page structure doesn't lend it well to that without current years. Like things like the few, if you're showing like a before view on like some plugin on CI. So some build on CI. You'll probably see maybe 15 side panel icons or something on that. I guess this is the run page and then there's the project page. But yeah, if you click the master branch, so you've got 10, you've got 10 side panel icons. So if you click, I think I was probably thinking of the next page down.  I would say maybe one that's already run. That's, yeah, there's a, there you go. Probably one that's already run will have even more, I would say when they actually finished.  Three, six, nine, 12, 15, 18, 21, 23, 24. That's it a quick 25. This is a quick count and I could have missed some about 25. I mean, this is easy to clean up just fix warnings and G to have one side panel item instead of 10. Yeah, and get build data to not repeat itself for every build and So yeah, so anyway, the experiment or the demo that you showed looks great. It's actually fairly similar to what I suggested or meant to suggest recently when I asked about the build overview and or job overview page. The details in the details as usual, but this looks looks pretty good and this is also the kind of magnitude of change that makes it where we can basically defend us breaking stuff. So for example, the build history on the site there looks different than what the site panel widget would be right with the accompanying breaking changes around which is an alignment and are we showing the description and on and on the problems that create problems basically every time we touch it. So we have a we have an opportunity here with this to completely rethink how that which it would work and throw out some of the accumulated garbage over the last decade or so.  It's ridiculously hard to debug. I'm this kind of design carries through to the build page as well. But I think the page is horrifically broken right now so that's why I'm not really showed it. But has a similar concept where we kind of bring the side panel actions out. I don't care how broken it is but showing an excerpt of the console output on the main page. Thank you. Thank you. This is long overdue. Yeah, so yeah, just just kind of reduce the amount of clicks it takes essentially. It's just, I've just broken this UI completely. But yeah, that's it really I can kind of develop it more if there's an appetite for it and I'll hopefully have something. It's a huge appetite for it. I'm putting posts on Gitter about in that case now trying to get some kind of more realistic data on there and more realistic view of how kind of plugins can integrate and what not. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, that's that's really. Yeah, certainly help with this as well. So I'll stop showing you my text. Cheers. Cool. Okay. So thanks for that demo yarn that was great. Just in terms of the plugin manager page just to loop background foot was worth just seeing that demo. So I think the last bit we're at was it's not completely special because pages like the job page have it the log recorder page. Could have it and so yarns, I guess you showed how that different action bar, I think was there still a title title on that page was it was at the build. Was it the project name and then there was you had a kind of different type of icons with a. So I think it's a good work for like extra things that didn't necessarily need to take up 1010 sidebar spaces pretty pretty much yeah. Yeah, I can send a screenshot if zoom supports that. It does. I don't know.  I think it should be down just like the vertical space. If we have the space on the left you could always take advantage of that I guess rather than trying to put more stuff on top. As far as I understand it this is still an experiment right. So we would probably want a feedback mechanism to exist before we publish it. Yeah. It could be a good prototype for whatever we propose for the on page feedback. My suggestion would be perhaps we could do the following. Change it to move the title back to the main area where it unnecessarily takes up vertical space. Change the update center to be called plugin manager so it's just yet another page of the plugin manager that shows up as needed. And remove the separator. That way this kind of looks more like a classic page of Jenkins, we can basically postpone the discussion with the title in the site panel for now. And basically, we submit that for review. And postpone the title in the site panel until we have a feedback mechanism because that intro kind of introduces a new way for the pages and Jenkins to look. Yeah, only kind of concern was safety advanced page would end up having two titles for that page. You can have like plugins and below you have like advanced settings, at least on the on the redesigned. Yes, big old title there. Yeah, because that one's like an actual regular page whereas these ones are different. Or you could just change it on that page to just advanced or plug in manager advanced plugins advanced. Yeah, that works. Would it make sense to split that page up into three separate pages one is the proxy configuration one is the plugin deployment one is the update site source. It's basically just a random grab bag of other options that are vaguely related to plugins. And I'm saying vaguely because the proxy configuration isn't just for the plugin manager but also affect the rest of Jenkins so this might as well be in the global configuration for system options.  It makes sense to me here. You could just call it configuration. Maybe it's not even configuration because you can deploy stuff. So basically this could be two separate pages for the plugin manager one is the deploy plugin one is the update site sources. And the proxy configuration could be moved elsewhere. So, I might need to look into whether that makes sense structurally but I can see this happening we've moved options around in the past, for example the cloud configurations used to be part of the system configuration. We had this label that they were moved the tool configuration used to be part of the global configuration. They moved something back, and since the proxy configuration confusing the applies to more, or applies to more than just the plugin manager, having it here is actually confusing. I think that your pull request as suggested would be slightly awkward on this page is acceptable. If we intend to split this up a page up afterwards anyway. Yeah, I mean there's been talk of fixing this for years. It's just getting it done at some point. I mean the main thing is I think it's moved to be proxy at some point, but it's just figuring that out. I'm getting rid of all the action. For this PR I think it would be fine just to change the title on this on this page. Right splitting this up, I think would be a separate follow up change. Yeah. Is that enough to go on yarn if something is an interim measure to get this over the line. Yeah, it sounds good. So just to kind of clarify, move the title of the search bar. Right, and then kind of rename the update center accordingly. Right, so the breadcrumb would also be plugin manager to basically make it appear as is it as if it is part of the plugin manager. Have the sidebars look identical between plugin manager and update center. And the side panel item for it could be download progress or something along those lines because really that's what it's used for right now it does nothing else. And then the only thing that's kind of separate is it has a separate API, which I expect to be fairly little used so that's not a huge deal probably hopefully. The other is separate URL and who cares. So what about the URL did you mean, do we, was it do we care that it's still under update center or is it that you want this page to be served up under the plugin manager. It doesn't have a top leveling. Yeah. So you always got there from the plugin manager. It only exists. If you actually downloaded something. And so that's why I think it makes sense to consider it part of the plugin manager you take an action plugin manager and the update center becomes available which is kind of dumb. You go back to plugin manager and just you know just install any of these updates nobody cares right just take any of the updates say download now. Suddenly exists go back to plugin manager. And now you have the link to update center right and if you call this link, download progress. And here now go back to update center. The only thing that you need to be careful of is in the background bar we would also want to call this plugin manager because we wanted to appear as part of the plugin manager. And then I think the entire rename this page the title on this page as well to be download progress or whatever the site panel title would be for a bit of redundancy and we're through. I think that would make sense. Yeah. How straightforward is kind of changing that breadcrum to be plugin manager. It's the display name. It's not changing the link it's just changing the text. The link will still take you to that same page but you've got the side panel which you can use to get back. Awesome. That sounds good to me. Oh, right. Good point.  Or do you want that link to change go to plugin center plugin manager. Yeah, that would be nice right because the label would be plugin manager but it takes you to the download progress page. It's only going to be a problem when you're on that page. Right. Still kind of weird. But I mean if you if you treat it as. It's an actual page of plugin manager it's. And so if when you're on when you're on plugin manager and you click it doesn't do anything. It just takes you to the same page. Well, technically it takes you to this because these are actually pages, but if you click this it does nothing. It'd be the same thing over here. It's more like this should be a non active bread crumb which you can't actually click because it's a useless bread crumb would for it to do anything would actually have to have sub pages here. We might be able to hack the get URL to say plugin manager. And if nothing else breaks we're good. So yeah so there might be some pain here that we'll need to. We'll need to see in implementation and if you want I can take a stab at this. To see whether it even works. Sounds good to me. Okay, so later this week maybe before the next meeting let's say before the next meeting. Yeah, I mean I can probably do most of the small stuff at least push something like tonight tomorrow or something. If you've got unless unless you've got time young. Yeah, I can definitely take a look at some of them I just might need help with the kind of jovery side of things because Jenkins Java confuses me. Well we'll see who gets to it first. Cool. Has anyone got anything else. There's mention of an accessibility assessment here but as far as I know that was it was a done by a company and it was in German and I'm not sure if anything was done about that. No, is there anything else or should we close it. Cool. Alright thanks everyone for your time.


And I just feel like they're really excited for me. Like I told those guys before the play that I was going to go get it. And to me, that was great to actually go out there and actually go do it. Builds confidence, builds whatever you want to call it. But I mean, those guys believe in me and rightfully said. Who's the most random person you heard from after that? You might have heard from and. I mean, a lot of unknown, a lot of numbers in my context that I mean just popped up and a lot of people I don't know. But the greatest thing is I heard from my little lead coach. So I stay in contact with them. Team called the A-Leaf Jaguars. When I go back home, we'll go visit with them too. So every time I go back home, I get a chance to go out there and meet the kids and new next kids and kids and kids and kids. They come out each and every year, talk to them. Every time I get to go home, I always do that. So hearing from him was the best thing. And I told him I was going to come back and I'm going to see the kids when I get there too. So was that Pop Warner? Yeah, I guess so yeah. How old were you when you were a legend? I started, I think my, when I was in fifth grade. Okay. Yeah, fifth grade. What's his name? Coach Charles. Coach Charles. Coach Gray. Okay. Yeah. So that'll make you feel good. You did all right. Did you, what did you do last night to celebrate? Did you go out and have any kind of vote? Oh, well I had no call of duty for a little bit. Okay. And then hang out with the boys, man. But you didn't sit at home watching sports and watching yourself? Oh, no, no, no, no, no. But I did watch that play over and over again. Just fighting different angles and just the biggest thing for me or the funniest thing for me was watching everybody else's reaction around me from the other, like from the coaches and the players, the fans and everybody. Was Brayble trying to run you down? Yeah, I didn't even notice it at the time I did it. But looking at it on film was crazy. Yeah, I mean for the most part I blocked a couple in college. I think if I'm sure or if I remember right in high school I think I blocked a couple too. But yeah, coming off the edge, I've never been a big boy in the inside. But yeah, I blocked a couple. I mean I just time it up. A lot of people for the most part try to take those plays off and a real casual about it. I feel like that's opportunity for anybody to make a play. And I just spent out there trying to do that. Did you see something that allowed you to get to the game? I mean just, I mean a lot of guys and the best guys in the league, they adapt every play you learn from every play. So every play I was learning from the snap, the cadence, and I was just learning, learning, learning. And that was my opportunity and I made the most out of it.


Finally have the ROG Phone 2 here and boy, this is what impressive device. It looks like a gaming device. We know the ROG line and the CAs who says, look, we're coming for the juggler for everyone because this comes in with as much specs as you can think of for any device. Forget just a gaming smartphone. Now, Snapdragon 855 Plus. I mean, the 855 is the best process in the land and Android. 855 Plus takes it to the next level where you increase GPU and CPU performance. You've got up to 12 gigs around. It starts at eight, moves to 12. Yes, there's an eight gigabyte variant and you wanna check that one out because it's priced starting at $554 or something like that. I have a link for you guys down below, seriously. 12 up to 12 gigs around. You also have a 6,000 milliamp battery in this bag boy, which is insane. Now it's got two USB type C ports as you go. Wow, yeah. Because it's got one for that cooling fan, which is basically side mounted and then you've also got a bottom USB type C port, a headphone jack, front firing speakers. And you hear the speakers and how well they sound during gameplay sessions here. We'll definitely do a separate speaker test so you guys can see that and we'll be doing some comparisons as well. Maybe the Galaxy Note 10 Plus, see how it actually compares to that. But this device is such a beast.  It's pretty big, it's hefty on its size. It doesn't have thin bezels. It's focused on what you care about, gaming. And as a gamer mobile gaming, you want something with high refresh rates, 120 Hertz and a super sample of 240. What it simply means is while you're gaming, whatever games you're playing, you're gonna get smooth motion tapping on the screen and basically getting as precise movement as you want. Plus scrolling is just super nice, 120 Hertz. Now you've got accessories that come with this if you buy the accessories. But the main thing I do like is their Game Genie software. Not to be confused with Game Genie from the Game Boy days or your Super Nintendo. This software allows you to use so much more. It shows you your temperatures, what's the speed of your processor at that point in time. It shows you your frame rates, which is great. So I don't have to install a separate software. I can record, my gameplay, I can go live on there. I can also play up my system RAM. I can do so much with that software and it's just a swipe away to give quick access to it. And it takes your gaming to a whole different level. Now speaking of gaming, that's what you guys are here for. Played a couple of games, giving you just an idea of what it actually does in terms of this gameplay performance. And we're gonna talk about some of the frame rates we've got in a few games, temperatures and all that fun stuff, but we're not wasting more time. Let's check out some gameplay. Seriously, the ASUS ROG Phone 2 is a beast. I mean, battery life of that thing is insane while gaming because you've got 6,000 milliamps and that also can be charged with a 30 watt charger, mind you. Performance is just really smooth. I mean, looking at something like PUBG, I think the lowest I got was 58 frames per second and it's max settings and then mobile legends, 555, 60 frames per second. Other games are also running at like low 60. It just did. Gameplay was smooth, really be smooth, handled very well. Didn't matter what games were playing, it just did the job. And the speakers were loud too, really loud and clear, robust. You've got DTSX built in there as well. So you've got all the things you need for that mobile gaming experience. Now when it comes to temperatures, it ran it and it did about 93 degrees Fahrenheit and of course about 33 or so and that's when you get nice cool temperatures. But I wanted to see how it performed, intense thing and what was the effect of that fan? It has a fan that comes with it in the case. To cool the system down is pretty much what it says. It attaches on the side USB ports. It's easy to clap in. And what that does, it doesn't really necessarily cool the system down because I actually check the temperatures afterwards. What it does, it cools the area around. So when your fingers are around there, it doesn't feel like it's gonna burn because we dropped down by just one degree to 92 degrees and that was pretty much it. So I don't think that's super effective cooling because all that processing is done internally. But it means around the casing of the device outside, it is much cooler. And it's nice to when you're gaming long sessions, when you're doing long sessions of gaming, you want to feel comfortable with that with this device. Headphone jack is there, which means, yes.  It's a device that I like. If you're looking for as a dedicated gaming device, it's great.  I think anyone who's thinking about a gaming phone has to look at the ROG phone too. Especially starting at $550 something dollars, it's a great way to jump in. We'll take a look at the cameras later on so you guys can see how all the cameras work, what you get in terms of quality, that kind of stuff. But for gaming, yeah, the ROG phone hits the nail in the head right there. So anyway, guys, if you have any questions or any comments about the ROG phone too, let me know, I'll try and answer them for you.  If you want to see a comparison of the Galaxy Note 10 Plus, leave your comments down below. We'll try and answer them and make that video. Otherwise, guys, thank you very much. Don't forget to like and share. Subscribe to the channel. We're almost at 300K. Thank you very much for supporting, guys. I will get some announcements for you, but thank you to your friends, share. I truly appreciate it because this has been a great journey with you guys. But anyway, guys, thank you. I said thank you like five times, right? All right, enjoy your entertainment.


Hello, and welcome to People's Dispatch. Today, we are joined by Cyril Sam and Paranjai Gohatakurtha, the authors of a new book, The Real Face of Facebook in India, which looks at the role played by the social media giant in the political and social landscape of the country. Thank you, Cyril and Paranjai. Cyril, to start with you, we have seen, especially over the last one year, how Facebook has basically, in some senses, lost all its legitimacy. So in the political sphere, in the social sphere. So in the Indian context, how do you see these events spanning out? Or what are the characteristics of Facebook? What is the real face, so to speak? Facebook is turning into an organization. It's a commercial organization, a business entity. That is in some ways affecting, in a lot of ways, actually affecting the politics in the country. And that is essentially what the story of this book is. How is Facebook affecting politics in this country? And Paranjai, you've covered the Indian political scenario for decades now. So what do you see, what trends in the Indian political scenario do you see that Facebook is actually worsened or accentuated, actually? The ruling party in the country, the right wing Hindu nationalist Bharatiya Janata Party, which is ruling the country at present. It's one of its spokespersons. In fact, the person who heads its information technology cell, he's gone on record saying that this is India's WhatsApp elections. To take a few steps back, India is a country with 1.35 billion people. And we have about 900 million people who are eligible to vote. If you just look at the statistics, one out of three voters today has access to WhatsApp. Facebook can talk about 2.2 billion plus users across the planet. But it's in India with the maximum number of users of Facebook exist. I mean, these numbers are contentious, but somewhere in the region of about 230 million, there are even more users of WhatsApp, at least somewhere in the region of 300 million. So the fact is that we've seen the use of the social media go up like in a way very few people could have imagined. So WhatsApp has been weaponized by the ruling dispensation to spread not just its propaganda, but misinformation, disinformation, hate speech, Islamophobia. And it's been well documented and recorded how it's been misused for really very, very deadly purposes. I mean, there have been at least a few dozen, about 30 odd instances of mob lynching that have taken place in India over the last few years, where somehow or the other, a Facebook message has been linked to what has happened. And almost in all these cases, we find that the victim is a member of the minority community. And the perpetrators or the alleged perpetrators of the crime are those belonging through the majority community and some of them openly or covertly or allegiance to the ruling dispensation. Right. And so to start our takeoff from this point, so we have Facebook also saying that it is making a lot of attempts to kind of prevent hate speech and misinformation and disinformation from spreading. And there have been a lot of steps. And even in this election season, they claim to have introduced some measures. In the Indian context, how do you see Facebook's performance as far as these issues are concerned? If you look at, so Facebook released its election integrity project sometime, second half of last year. Results of the Indian elections will be declared on the 23rd of May. It's around the same time the European Union goes for an election. So it was around, so announcements for what is happening in India and what is happening in Europe were made at nearly the same time. And when you go through those documents that Facebook's put out, you realize that it's treating elections in Europe in a very different way. Rules are very different, tighter rules compared to what is happening in India, the rules that they published for India. It's also because in Europe they are facing, they are going to probably face some kind of regulations. In India, there is nothing like that happening. And in fact, at some point when someone in Facebook was asked about these things, I think this was Katie Habarth, who's the head of the political communications division at Facebook. And what she said was that government of India needs to move in, and they need to regulate a lot of these things. They need to put laws in these things because Facebook is helpless. So in India, it's a free for all, unlike, say, in Europe, where things are very different. If I can add a few points to what Cyril has said, contrary to what Facebook claims, that it's a neutral agnostic platform, what we've sought to document in our book is that certain individuals who are very close to, who work with Facebook and who earlier were indirectly associated with India's ruling party, how they've actually used these social media platforms to promote Narendra Modi, the prime minister of India, as a larger than life, as a messiah. So the point that is worth emphasizing is that whereas Facebook's activities and how it's helped ruling dispensations and authoritarian regimes, how it's been complicit in the killings of innocent people, I mean, some of that has been recorded in Myanmar vis-a-vis the Rohingya refugees. We've had documentation of what Facebook has done in Argentina and other parts of the world. But we believe that it was important to document what has happened here in India. A lot of the information was scattered across websites, publications, and so we've sought to, at one level, collate it. At another level, Cyril and I spent about eight months speaking to about 60 people who were associated directly, indirectly, or who were aware of what was happening to put together how the propaganda machinery has been used and how Facebook has been perfectly aware of what's been going on and turned a blind eye to the most egregious kinds of violations of not just the right to free speech, but the abuse of its platform to spread fake information, false information, hateful speech, incendiary information. And I see that you also dedicated a chapter specifically to Cambridge Analytica as well. And its role in the Indian context is something that's not very well known to, because the news has largely been about the United States and Brexit for that matter. So could you also talk a bit about what its role in the Indian context has been? You know, Cambridge Analytica, if it could do what it did, we quote Prabir Purokaista, who's the head of NewsClick, saying, imagine what Facebook can do. In India, the role played by Cambridge Analytica and its associates. And we've sort of documented all the various organizations, the firms, the entities that were directly and directly associated, and their links.  But there's a lot of debate, a lot of dispute what has happened. But when you look at what Cambridge Analytica could do, quote unquote, illegally, it's absolutely mind-boggling to think that rogue elements within the Facebook fraternity or those who are abusing those platforms what they can do. And I think more than Facebook or Twitter or YouTube, which is part of Google, it's really WhatsApp, which has become the weapon. And that's because you have end-to-end encryption. And there's been documented how instances of people who have been killed, they've been filmed on WhatsApp. But the authorities of both the Indian authorities, when they asked them, they said, we can't help you at all. We don't know who put it up. Our technology doesn't enable us to tell us who put it up and where it's going.  It's absolutely using the social media platform to kill and murder. Right. And so recently, Mark Zuckerberg, a couple of days announced that Facebook's new mission is, the future is private in his words and talked about a new era of Facebook products, which are going to be more oriented towards privacy. So do you see these as having the potential to say address some of the issues you talked about in the book or is it a red herring, so to speak? I don't think it's going to affect anything. If anything, this is an attempt to preempt any kind of regulation. First, second is the reason why a lot of this has come out in public is because a lot of this information can be scraped, journalists can research, journalists and researchers can go through a lot of the information that is already public and make sense of what is happening. The moment you move private, we don't know what is happening anymore. And if you look at Facebook groups, which work like WhatsApp groups, especially closed and private groups, we have no idea what is happening in there and a lot of insightful, a lot of Islamophobic messages are floating there. And that is where they're headed, what they're trying. It's essentially a PR move to protect themselves from any kind of public scrutiny, any kind of journalism happening because what they've also done is they've now created a list of panel researchers who will have access to their data. So you and I can no longer have access to that data. So essentially they're just trying to cover their tracks. I think it's a knee-jerk reaction to the widespread condemnation of what happened in Christchurch in New Zealand on the 14th of March, where the killings of dozens of innocent people was broadcast live and that has attracted condemnation across the world. I think Facebook is under attack. I mean, there are politicians in the US and in Europe and in other countries of the world and also in India who are arguing that it's about time that this particular large digital monopoly was broken up and in the same ways which American Telephone and Telegraph, AT&T, the company or the conglomerate that had been founded by the person who invented the telephone, Alexander Graham Bell, that had happened in the 80s in the US. The question that is now being raised and American lawmakers and European lawmakers are saying, yeah, it's about time these large digital monopolies shouldn't be allowed to get away and the only way that they can be controlled is by breaking them up. And foremost among the people who've suggested this is Elizabeth Warren, she's the Democratic party, aspirant, she intends to run for the post-representant of the US. And Tim Wu as well. Yes, a whole lot of other people. Absolutely correct, Tim Wu as well. Right, and to end on the larger question maybe in the sense that, like you pointed out, this is not just India, that is. For instance, in Brazil, where Bolsonaro's election, just a couple of days before, there was a whole widespread WhatsApp campaign. In the US we have, so do many of these, is it a structural issue with many of these social media firms that there is a possibility of so much right-wing hatred, misinformation, and propaganda being spread? And this is not just about Facebook, even Twitter for that matter, certain other firms. So do you see it as a larger structural issue in the way these firms were built, the internal culture, that organization that actually permits this? So I think the structural argument can be made for something like a Facebook, a YouTube, or a Twitter, which promotes the entire business model is around engagement, time spent. So these companies make more money when users spend more time on these platforms, and they engage more with the platform, making comments, sharing content, et cetera, et cetera. These kind of platforms prefer sensationalist content, because that's the only way people spend more time. So there's a structural issue with these companies there. When you move on to, say, private messaging apps like WhatsApp, or Telegram, or Signal, or any of those, there it's more about privacy laws. Privacy laws don't exist, which is why our phone numbers are floating around, which is why based on our phone numbers, people can, just based on our phone numbers, people can make huge profiles of us. I mean, connect our phone numbers to electricity bill, or our telephone bill, or our credit card scores, and they can build huge databases that they know, okay, this is how you target these people. Because at the end of the day, the business model of commercial internet is advertising. So Facebook is an advertising infrastructure. Twitter is an advertising infrastructure. YouTube is an advertising infrastructure. And when it's an advertising infrastructure, your primary motive is manipulation. So through all of this, what is happening is, users are constantly being manipulated. So to add to what he said, I mean, the structural issue is the greed to maximize your profits, when it conflicts against the absence of social responsibility and where you're politically always on the side of not just the right, but the whoever's in power and usually is in favor of authoritarian regimes, or suddenly those with all the money to spend. So because you lack nuance and you don't want nuance, you only want those extreme emotions. You want to see the world in terms of black and white. It is therefore often, it is the demagogues of the world are able to misuse it. Very, very effectively. And I think it's about time that the structural issues are dealt with at more than one level. At one level, yes, education, greater awareness, yes.  There's such a large section of the population which is using WhatsApp, that has actually been deprived of quality education. So to use the television anchor in India, Rabish Kumar's phrase, they are getting educated in WhatsApp University. They start believing all the trash that's put out on the social media because they've been deprived of quality education. So it's part of those bigger social economic and political structures which in a sense have widened and sharpened inequalities and can continue to do so. Thank you, Siril and Paranjeev. That's all we have time for today. Keep watching People's Dispatch.