Okay. Okay. So how was that list? It's good to look at, be aware of. And that's what it should actually help us with. Okay. So it's not that we, you know, it becomes part of our identity or anything. And if it troubles us, it's good. But we do something about it. Right. So we don't, we don't dwell on it. We immediately take action and the action that we take is repentance. Right.  I'm willing to change. And, you know, I don't want to continue doing this. Okay. The second thing is to ask God for forgiveness. Okay. So, so we say, you know, sometimes we confuse repentance and, you know, confession and asking for forgiveness as, I mean, it can be the same thing. Right. It can be happened at the same time. But repentance, like we said, is change of mind. And here we are asking the Lord for His forgiveness for, for the way we have, you know, acted on our thought patterns for the way we have actually behaved because of our wrong beliefs. You know, these are wrong things that we believe. Right. These are wrong things that we've been harboring.  Right. What happens when our thoughts are, when we believe something to be true, when we believe a lie, when we believe that this is what we can be and nothing more. What happens is that our life, our behavior, our emotions and everything, you know, it follows that. Right. We begin to live what we, what we believe, we begin to live out what we believe, our behavior, everything is, it becomes part of what we deeply believe. That's true. You know, that's, that's, that's why repentance has to be the first step. Okay. Because if we don't stop, change the way we believe, then there can be no change. Okay. Because change comes when we change the way or change what we believe about ourselves. Okay. So, so some of these beliefs or some of these lies are so deeply entrenched. Okay. And it's a good exercise just to ask you know, what lies do I believe about myself? What lies do I believe about myself? Okay.  Francis is saying no chance. But they know, maybe you're not in all areas of your life, but then some areas are saying, you know, I will always be like this, right? Or my ministry will never, I'll never have a ministry or my ministry will never thrive or flourish.  How many of us have thought that I will never have enough money? All of us have thought, I will never have enough money to do the things that maybe God wants me to do, or I'll always be like this. I've thought I'll always be poor. I will always have a, I'll know, I'll never have my needs met. Okay. Is that true or false? That's false. So, so the thing is, you know, we know that we are in a, we're on a journey. Okay. We know that God is doing something in us.  So our current place or our current, what should I say, you know, the way we are right now is not our final destination. Okay, we need to understand that. Okay.  I'll never have enough money to, you know, it was at a time when, when, you know, I think my wife was expecting the baby. And I remember going to Baptist hospital, we went on a bike and coming back, it was raining, pouring. You know, both of us were drenched completely wet and she's, you know, expecting, I think maybe seven months carrying whatever.  So getting a taxi would be like, you had to buy that, you know, get that four hours lab. That is, I didn't have enough money for that. And then so, you know, I'm thinking like, I don't have enough money to buy a car. So I'm feeling so bad about myself. I'm feeling so angry with myself. And here's my wife who's fully soaked and, you know, expect and she's not comfortable. And I'm just, God, I just hate it.  I'll never, you know, I'm just telling myself, what is this?  So unsuccessful. I can't even provide all these things. And at that point, I just felt that I'll never have a four wheeler. I could never even think of that.  So they gave all the employees a severance package, right? They were, they were quitting. So they're saying, okay, all the employees who've been there for some time, I know we are, we are closing down. So for you, it'll be a severance package, meaning okay, maybe five months of pay or six months of pay. So from this point, the company is closing from this date, you are no longer employed. So we will give you with this salary, we will give you this five months salary also six months salary.   And I was thinking those days second and feet. And I was not even thinking of Marathi second hand feet car. Okay, we'll buy that. Yes. So I wasn't thinking of maintenance.  How to make it run how much petrol I have to put how much I'll have to pay for repairs. I was thinking of nothing. Right. So I said, okay, I'll use that money. So, you know, all these things all the while I'm thinking I'll never have enough. I'll never have enough. And so like that, we let this experiences define ourselves. So the those times, who I am and Christ is who I am and all is not coming to our mind. Even if it's coming, it's like, you know, we don't feel like saying it, we don't feel like identifying, we don't believe it, right? Things like that. So, so maybe we are believing, you know, such such things about ourselves. I'll never be successful. I'll never be victorious in these things. Right. So those are things that we need to repent as a first step. Okay.  So at the end of it, you know, he's just going on some 10 things, he's, you know, going on and on and at the end of it, everybody's laughing. Everybody's like, yeah, it's hilarious. But the thing is, it showed us that the extent to which we can believe certain things based on experience. And the thing is, we can be, we can be Christian atheists, Christian, Christian name, Christian belief, church going, but who's an atheist who doesn't believe in God? We can be atheistic. And it comes to the promise of God, we can be atheistic when it comes to the, you know, some of the things that we, yeah, I've heard it so much, but then, you know, it's, I don't really believe it. Right. And that we can believe only when we repent of our wrong ideas, wrong beliefs. Okay, so it's very important. Okay. So second thing, you know, saying we're asking God for forgiveness, asking God for forgiveness for some of the things we have done, some of the things we believe, some of the things that, you know, we've repeatedly walked in. They're also, you know, we know that, you know, one John 19, maybe we can read that one John one, and verse nine says, if we confess, if we confess our sins, he is faithful, and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness, he is, is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and cleanse us from all unrighteousness. So, so what we actually believe is that, okay, this happens five times. And I exhausted those five times. Now this is the sixth time. How can I go back to this verse? Okay, anybody thinking like that, right?   Because because we put limits on others, right? I can't just tolerate this forever. How many times have you come back with the same thing? Right? So, sorry. Right? But God's love and God's mercy. God's love is unconditional, which is something that we are still discovering, trying to understand, how can it be unconditional? That's the agape love. Agape love of God is unconditional meaning that it is a love that says, I love you despite, in spite of, okay?  And that's, and that's the love that we have.  I love you because, hey, you respecting me. I love you because you're so humble. I love you because you're so funny. I love you because you're so good looking.  You say all this, you know, it's a conditional love. But God's love is unconditional. You think despite, which means like, despite of the wrongs, despite the way you cannot, you know, you're not doing certain things, I, I still love you, right? So which is, which is very difficult for us to sometimes wrap our minds around and, and, you know, grasp. And so, and so we, we, you know, when it comes to forgiveness, we say, okay, God's love is limited, God's God's love is conditional. So how can I ask for forgiveness? And repeatedly, how can I ask, especially when it's about the same thing? And this is not the first time, this is the nth time, which means you've lost count. I've lost count. How many times I've lost count. So how can I ask for forgiveness? But the fact is that what, what comes, you know, when we ask, when we confess, then there is forgiveness, there is cleansing. So it happens, doesn't happen automatically now. Right? It's not gonna happen automatically. I'm just continuing to walk in rebellion, continuing to walk in, you know, sin, it's not God is not going to, you know, cleanse me and restore me. It happens when I ask, it happens when I come to that place of humility and recognizing God, I want to ask. And I'm asking the Bible, 1 John 1 9 says he is faithful. He is just to forgive. He is faithful. He is just to cleanse. Okay, so and you know, John is writing to the believers writing to the church and he's saying, you know, this is this is something that this is God's nature. So you need to do this, we need to come back to the place of confessing, right? Okay, so, so his love is unconditional is forgiveness and mercy is there without limits. And therefore, we can, we can always go to him and ask, right? Romans five verse eight, God demonstrates his love towards us. In that while we were still sinners or while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. Okay, so, you know, while we went to him, while we were, while we didn't know the love of Christ, while we were sinners, we went to him, he forgave us. And then we forget that, hey, I was in that state, when I asked him for forgiveness, and he forgave, and he says that he died for us while we were yet sinners. Okay, so that's, that's so great his that that is his unconditional love. He didn't say, okay, you wash up, you know, clean up, and then I will let you in my presence. We wouldn't listen to you. He didn't say that while we were yet sinners. So his love is unconditional, his forgiveness and mercy is available for us. So we can ask for forgiveness. All right.  Right. So we can ask for forgiveness, ask for that cleansing. Okay. Third one is believe and receive the completed work of Christ on the cross. Okay. So the love of God, like we saw that verse, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. God demonstrates his own love, which means this is a definition and a demonstration of his love.  And this is the kind of love that I have for you. What I did on the cross. Okay, so it says demonstration. Demonstration is something that you explain something that you do to show, right. His demonstration is this, right, that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us. So the work on the cross is the basis for forgiveness. Right. Is the basis for freedom is the basis for liberty. Okay. So let's look at another scripture. Isaac 53 versus four and five. Okay. So we looked at that he carried our pain, he carried our sickness. We looked at that was right. So let's just read through again. As I have 53. And versus four and five. Yeah, maybe you can read. Okay, I got it. Surely he is born our griefs is carried our sorrows. Yet we esteemed him stricken, smitten by God and afflicted, but he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our inequities, the chastisement for our peace was upon him. And by his stripes, we are healed. Okay, so the great transaction, the great exchange has happened on the cross. And that's the basis for our healing and deliverance. And so which means that we receive the completed work. It is a complete work. It is not an incomplete work. So we receive forgiveness as part of it, healing for our emotions, damaged emotions as part of it. So we receive that, right? So, so what are we receiving? We are receiving restoration, right? So we're receiving whatever he carried on our behalf, so that we he can undo that, change that, that is what we receive. Okay, so, you know, our prayer can be like this, I believe that God, I believe that you died for me on the cross, shed your blood for me. And I'm washed and redeemed by your blood. I'm made whole, right, to the price you paid for me. I believe that you suffered so that I could be healed and made whole. So in doing that, we can be specific. We don't need to gloss over. We can, we can be very specific. Lord, I, and I receive healing and wholeness for this particular thing. Right? This area that I'm struggling, this thing that I'm, you know, I need your healing and wholeness, I receive that because the cross covers that area. Okay, so, so we can even make a list of, you know, symptoms, we can even make a list of, you know, the things that's the challenges or the areas that we struggle in. And I'm talking about, you know, physically, emotionally, right? Maybe unable to focus, maybe, you know, overcome by fear, maybe unable to think through, analyze, right? Those kind of things, right? And saying that the cross covers this, the completed work of the cross covers this. So I receive what the, what, what the Lord has done for me on the cross, I receive it. Okay. So, so who was the cross? Who's the cross for? Why did he do it?  It's for the world, it's for the world. But we forget that we are part of it, that you are part of it, right?  Okay, so every time we take part in the communion, it's a powerful thing, you know, it's a declaration of the cross.  So it's a declaration of what the cross did, what cross accomplished for us, right? Okay, so we receive from the finished work of the cross. Okay, any questions here? Any doubts till now? We look at another scripture Ephesians one and verse seven. Okay. In him, we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace. Okay. According to the riches of his grace. So, I mean, that's a great. And when you look at grace, and you look at the riches of his grace and the grace itself, like, I'm sure we have different ideas about grace. Because of which we, you know, the finish where the cross is made available for us. Mostly our idea about grace is the grace mark or the past mark that we receive, right? I scored 38. The teacher gave me plus two. And now I've got 40% and I passed. Right. Now I can, I can go and show my report card, which is all passed. At least now, you know, there's no red. I don't know. Have you, have you guys had report cards in school or was it all online? We had, okay, so every failed subject will have a red underline, right? So I didn't have it for a long time. But then suddenly I failed. I failed in my, I failed in Tamil. So, so the, I got the Tamil paper, and I was like, Oh, my God, my heart was like, sinking, you know, how will I show this to my father? How can I, you know, and by then I knew my father's signature, right? I actually practiced it and I knew it and all, but then still, you know, I was just thinking, should I take that path?   So she said, okay, plus two, pass. Okay. And I went home very happy. So sometimes we have that in mind. That's a great thing. I got, you know, I passed. And, you know, this plus two, it's a good, it's a great thing. But just imagine instead of plus two, okay, if she 38, you know, instead of plus two, if she said plus 60, 98, right? They say, you know, I don't deserve it. I'll say, you know, I don't deserve this. There were guys who actually worked very hard and you know, day and night they've studied and they've done plus 90 plus 60, I don't deserve it. Plus two, okay, plus 60, I don't deserve. Now that's our usual thing, right? I don't want to be, you know, class first because of your grace mark. But the riches of his grace is like that. You know, the riches of grace is like that. It's not that you can crawl into heaven. Like it's not that we can just say, okay, God, you know, I was sinking, you lifted me up, I put my hand up and now, you know, I'll, in one corner, I'll just stay in one corner of heaven.  I'm making you to sit with me in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus. I'm giving you that authority, right? So that is, what is that? That is something, we're saying, God, I don't deserve that. But God is saying, okay, I'm giving you that plus 60, right? Or maybe it's plus 62, right?   If you look at the list of things that, you know, in the Roman church, right, that Paul is writing, you know, to the Romans and he's saying, you know, these were, you know, some of you, right? This is how you were, but then you have been justified and, and also to the Corinthian church, right? This is what you were, this is who, this is what your lifestyle was, but then you have been justified, right? So, so that's the religious office grace and he's giving forgiveness, he's forgiving us and he's releasing the completed work of cross based on his grace, okay? And not based on our performance, right? But one thing is, so even when, when we say unconditional love that he can forgive us, you know, and the finished work of the cross is made available for us unconditionally, right? But what is that one thing that is required? Yeah, it is to repent and it is to believe, right? Believe in the finished work and to receive, right? And to receive, right?  I don't want, I don't want to take any more, you know, of these trash home carried with me. Please, you don't want to receive it. But that other hand is extended, he's saying, please take, so the finished work of the cross is like that, you know, he's saying, I've done it and I'm extending, right? So it depends upon me to, one thing that is required of us is that we receive. And that receiving is by believing, which means faith. And I, and I, and that's how I receive it into my life. Okay. Whatever the finished work is. So believe and receive the finished work of Christ on the cross, which is made available not because of our performance, but because of the riches of his grace, right? Not because of the marks that we scored, but because of the riches of his grace. So which means that he's saying, you are eligible because of grace. Okay. This thing comes to you because of grace. This thing is available to you because of grace. Why don't you believe and receive? Okay. Any, any thoughts on this? Okay. So, so this is, you know, this is why you know, when Romans, in Romans, Paul talks about several things about, this is why the grace is scandalous. Now, this is why the, the people who are off the law, they said, you know, how can this be? How can there be something apart from the law?  How can this be? Right? We found it to be very scandalous. That is why, you know, they're saying, you know, we need to stone this guy. We need to kill this. We need to finish him off. Right? It is a very scandalous, you know, kind of message saying that it has already been done. You receive and you walk in it. You don't have to do anything. Right? Okay. Fourth thing, now this is a big challenge. Release forgiveness. Okay. It's all very quiet. Release forgiveness. Right? And release forgiveness again to those who have hurt us. Okay. Those who have hurt us. And when I say hurt, you know, each of our lives, you know, each of us, we have a different story. You know, we have certain things that we have, you know, maybe we have shared with others. And there are certain things that we have never shared with any other human being. Yeah. Any other human being. And the closest ones we've not shared. Because it's maybe shameful. We think it's shameful. We think, you know, it's hurtful. It's still hurting. And so it is so deep within. Okay. Maybe it's, you know, maybe it's abuse of physical nature. Maybe it's abuse of verbal abuse. You know, people saying things repeatedly over and over again. There's so much of trauma that has happened because of it. And so we are in a place where, you know, the very mention of the person associated with it or people associated with it causes so much hurt. Just thinking about it, BP goes up. And we are replaying those accounts, those events. It just messes up your mind.  Right? So how can I release forgiveness for all that they've done? Right? And at least if somebody repents, then they have a chance. But if they have not repented, if they're just living, you know, how can I release forgiveness? You know, is there a question that we have, right? How can I release forgiveness? You know, they have not repented. They have not realized that what they've done is wrong. They're not, you know, they're clearly this very happy doing their lives, you know, living their lives doing what they want to do. Now the question is how can I release forgiveness? So many times when we have a, you know, maybe it's your spouse, maybe it's, you know, a close friend, whatever, we want to see some remorse. Right? The person comes and says, I'm sorry. But we want to see in their face, you know, are you really sorry? That was too quick. You know, you said something and then suddenly you're saying you're sorry. No, no, give me some time. We want to see that person really maybe suffer. You want to give them the silent treatment.  So releasing forgiveness, forgiving others, right? Those who may have hurt us, who may have wronged us, we are holding back, releasing. You're not, you're not forgiving. So the thing is this, you know, what happens when we don't forgive? In what way? When someone has done something to us and when we don't give them, we've been constantly thinking of it and we like, you know, it's like we hurting ourselves, thinking like they have done this to me or they have done and but when we forgive, there is a release and also we feel so peaceful from my experience. So actually unforgiveness puts us in a prison, right? It limits us emotionally, stunts us, cripples us emotionally and we're not able to, you know, experience that freedom that we would have when, you know, when we actually forgive others, right? You know, yeah, yeah. So with unforgiveness, how is the relationship with that person, other person, you know, it is definitely strained, right? We're not, there's always that, you know, we might say something but there's always a parallel thing, you know, we are, we are guarded, we don't, at best we want to avoid, we want to avoid that person, we don't want to see that person, if we see that person in public, we just want to avoid it, you know, avoid that person, we don't want anything to do with that person, right? So we're not, in a way, we are literally not free again, right? Yeah, yeah, so, so, so, yeah, so let's say the, the situation is that the person has not changed, they are still going, you know, doing what they're doing and they have not changed, they have not asked for forgiveness, right? To you, they have not repented in any way and you release, you're releasing forgiveness, right? You're forgiving them anyway from your heart. So in that case, yes, we don't have to, you know, go after them, pursue them and, you know, and yeah, we can actually, we can actually initially talk about it and say, okay, you know, I, I know this has happened, if it is possible, I know this has happened and I'm willing to just forgive and I know this was, I was done wrong, but I'm willing to forgive and overlook that, if the person is capable of, you know, talking about it and receiving it and then the relationship is restored, right? But if the person is unwilling, still wants to go their own way and then we can just leave it at that, yeah. Yeah, one second, one second, I think there's a question here. While forgiveness is mandatory, I think that's the question we were looking, is reconciliation a must and a mandate for us knowing it differs from each relationship? So I think, yeah, that's what Arun also asked, Jack Henshaw, saying that, you know, is reconciliation is something, do I need to go after and do this? So, so the Bible says whatever is possible from our side, you know, be at peace, whatever is possible from our side. So we make that attempt and if, you know, reconciliation depends on the response of the other person also, right? So if the person does not respond positively, does not want to have anything to do with the reconciliation, though you've done your best, then we just have to leave it at that, right? But from our heart, we have forgiven, we have released forgiveness, right? So, yeah, that is what we are talking about, yeah.  It can be family, which is not so close, but then, you know, extended family, you know, but then it can be a spouse and, you know, so this changes, right, with each relationship, you're right. Yeah, you were saying, you could use the mic. Is that okay to forgive but won't forget? Yeah, so the and the reason for that, why do you want to, you know, I'm just asking, like, yeah, they say, okay, don't forget what they've done, but what is the motive behind that? Be careful, no? Okay, forgive but don't forget. So what does that actually mean? See, as a human being, you know, we are made in such a way that we cannot forget the things that we have, unless it's, I don't know, you know, there are certain times when we forget. Oh, did you say that? Really? There's some things, some events we forget, right, but most of the things we remember, our mind, you know, our soul is created in such a way that we remember. But the beautiful thing is this, you know, when we release forgiveness and, you know, just like how God and Christ forgave us, we can actually go back to that same event, the same things that have happened, but without feeling the hurt, without feeling the hurt, right, without, we can actually go over the same thing without feeling the hurt. That's because we were able to release the forgiveness, we did not have any bitterness and God has done, you know, the Lord is able to cleanse us and heal us of that hurt, to that extent. But even thinking about it, or even speaking about it, yeah, you're saying it takes a lot of, it need not be time, it need not be.  There are some relatives who are talking like that, you understand? So when you say forgiving is easy, okay, let's say we forgive, coming to the place of forgiveness is difficult based on, you know, what is the nature of the thing that you have, you know, whatever wrong, how we were wrong, yeah. So a question is, okay, I forgive, even coming to that place is difficult, but after extending forgiveness, yeah, taking over the situation, yeah. So it can happen, it is a possibility, but also the problem is this, you know, we forgive, we release forgiveness. The next day, this thing comes to our mind, the event, it comes to our mind. So what do you do then? So that's the thing, what do we do? Let's say somebody is wrong, we are forgiven, we say, God, you know, I forgive them, I bless them, Lord, you prosper them, Lord, you know, you release the blessing instead of whatever hurt they have said, I've said that, you're feeling very good, you go have a nice meal, you eat, you sleep, you get up in the morning, I think I was, hey, what did he say? Sometimes it could be our own unrenewed flesh, sometimes it could be even Satan dropping it. So what do you do in that moment? So that's the key. Yeah, yeah. So the thing is, if you're vehement, if you're saying, God, you forgive me, I've forgiven, so I choose not to meditate on that, I choose not to meditate on that, I choose not to, you know, give my mind space for that, I don't want to give time, I don't want to give space to think about it, I've done it, it's a done thing, I'm not going back there again, because you're going to, maybe you're going to see that person every day, maybe you're going to, you know, whatever, you need to do that. Then, you know, that is when healing comes, or healing is complete, whatever started. So where you are saying that, it's like, you know, I'm going to possess the healing, I'm not going to let anyone take away this thing. God has started, God has done it, and this is what it is. So if you're going to be militant about it, then yes, so it doesn't have to be a long process. Yeah, okay, so let's just go through some of these things that we can, you know, how we can go about releasing forgiveness. Okay, the first thing, you know, Heavenly Father in Jesus' name, I receive healing for the trauma and the adverse or unexpected experiences I have gone through, but have hurt me, left me in pain. Okay, so now you can actually mention those events. Okay, I've gone through this, I've gone through the disappointment, I've gone through this abuse, I've gone through this traumatic thing. Right, then the next thing is to say that I release forgiveness to those who have hurt me, maybe knowingly, maybe unknowingly, and specifically mention those names. Okay, so that's the thing. Okay, so mention those names because they are real people. So now you're being very specific, you're really meaning business. Like you're saying, okay, I'm serious about this. You're mentioning the names, you're mentioning the event and who are you talking to, you're talking to the Lord who already knows it, but then you're saying it because you want to do something, you want to release forgiveness. Okay, then I receive healing for the disappointments and rejections, I've felt through unmet expectations, so you can, you know, you can mention that. No, this is the different thing that we're talking about, right? Disappointments, healing, the disappointment may be rejected, etc. So you talk about it, tell the Lord that. Again, releasing forgiveness for you, for the people who are held responsible for those disappointments, right, for those rejections, forgive them, take my eyes off them, I look to you because you meet all my needs and expectations. Right, so see the thing is we've never prayed, prayed like prayers like this, right, or maybe we have, I'm just saying, you know, we don't normally pray, pray like this, you might pray a general prayer, Lord, I forgive all that who have wronged me, just forgive them all. But then when you actually mentioned the names of the person, then it actually talks about your real intent, are you really wanting to do it, right, because you're talking about specific events, you're talking about specific people and you're releasing forgiveness, right. Third thing is, yeah. It's more than that, this idea of he being a place of forgiving, that's for him to forgive that person, but what we do is, we are in a part of the church, we are asking for forgiveness but if they are not forgiving. Yeah, yeah. How do we face that thing? Okay, yeah. So the firstly, we ask forgiveness from God, okay, so whatever, from the Lord, for whatever we have done because we have actually done it against him, right. So we ask his forgiveness and we receive by faith the forgiveness and healing from him first and foremost, okay. Then whoever we have wronged, maybe intentionally, we have wronged them, we ask their forgiveness and we say, you know, this is what I've done is horrible, terrible, you know, I've asked God for forgiveness, I'm asking you to forgive. So chances are that person may, person may not say no chance. So our only thing is you've made an attempt because you cannot control their will, okay, where you have you have repented, you have expressed your remorse and if there's anything that you can do to make up for it, maybe, you know, something was wronged financially, you restore that, you know, certain things, maybe we can't, right. Maybe they, you said something and because of which publicly they were shamed, whatever, you know, or anything else, you know, some things we cannot undo in that sense, right.  So you think about it, how else can I restore what was broken, restore the damages, what was done. If you exhausted those options and still that person is saying that I cannot forgive, then we just have to leave it, we cannot. Of course, having that person say, I forgive you, would be great, but we need to understand something that is greater, that is the Lord saying, I forgive you. It starts there first and foremost, right. Yeah, okay, so actually the third part is a very interesting, important part. It's about forgiving yourself. Okay, so we'll look at it next class. Okay, we'll stop here and thank you so much. So maybe you can just go through these, you know, these four steps in your own life, take personal inventory and see what is it that I need to do. Okay.


Hei, rydych yneth. Fy yw'r podcast. Fi'n gweld sut yn gweithio'r chacol, yw'r gweithio'r gweithio'n gweithio, ac maen nhw'n gwybod am yng Nghymru. Ymdillwyddiant sy'n gynghwylol, ymdillaf, ysgol, yng nghymredig, ymdillogau genneraethau, yw'n gwneud ymdillogau. O'r cyfrannu'r ysgol nhw'n gweithio'n gweithio'n 16-80. Mae'n cefnogaeth o'ch beian ac yn ymddangos i fynd i'r Ysgrifennu Llywodraeth, a'r gyfannol i'r fnwys gydw lwyddo, hen rwy'n meddwl i'r gwahau arniogio. Hynny, yw Lewis. Fawr gweithio'n y cerdd gyda fain, felly eu ffordd bwyd. Rhaid i chi dweud ar rhaid i mi. Rydyn ni'n ei dweud digwyddiaeth hefyd, ac rhaid i chi dweud arall ac yn ein holl. Ie, ond yn fawr, ond oes yn edrych yn ei fawr, ond yn ysgrifennu, ymwneud, allwn ffôr, rhai o'r tyfan? Yn ymwneud, ac yn ymwneud, yn ymwneud, wrth gwrs, oherwydd mae'n gweithio'n gweithio eich mwyaf, ac nhw'n dweud i'n gweithio'n gweithio'n gweithio i'r fawr i'n gweithio ar y cyfrifiadau. Rwy'n mynd i'n gallu yn оlygu'r bydd gwaith a'r peth fel y gallwn gwahanol. Rydym yn gwybod hefyd yn y cweithio fel y bydd i'r pethau, ac ydym ni'n meddwl i'r wychol fwy pethau. A'r mynd i'w dda i'r bydd gynnig hefyd yn y penwysig illog oherwydd wrth mae gyda'i yma yma yn maith i'r pethau a'r rhain. Rwy'n gallu gyda'i. Mae gyd handle gwaith i'r derivatives. Rwy'n i'n meddwl i'r Llywodraedd oeddanol, rywb bod yna ein bobl ac yn ysgriffedd ei fod, sy'n teimlo i'i ceisio at y sefydliadau o'r llei, a yn adeilad, pleidio i London i wedi'i caelopardwyr mwy o'r ymweld, felly mae'n rhan o'r ymgymellau yn y cyf knight yr ond. A oeddwn i'n fyddai i'r Lloedd ac yr ond o'r market yma o'n 30 ac sy'n mynd i'r rhan o'r ymgymru o'r hyn. Rydyn ni'n ei fyddai, ac yn mynd i'r pam yn rhan o'r amlygu. for a French company. Most women lie about their age in a French company. Why do they do that? I have no idea, but they just do. So, and I think it's, it is all, it's so many things are linked together, but so I'm, I'm boldly telling people these days that I'm 53 and thank you. But it is an important thing to say because it's made me consider a lot of things and how I feel about my future career because I think that's often tied up with perception and how you look and I think there is a, there is a gap between the way companies are structured around a traditional model that I would describe as traditional model which we can talk about and how the reality of things in the world we live in today I think there's a big disconnect between the two and I find myself at that point now. What's the disconnect? I think there's, there's this, we run companies and we have office hours and we have structures that are very much predicated on this nine to five working environment which came out of all sorts of reasons back in the early sort of Henry Ford and the factories and having workforces that needed to be in shift patterns and so on. So, and we've sort of stuck to that model for years and years and I think that's kind of linked to the industrial revolution. We're in a completely different industrial, we're in the middle of a kind of like a digital industrial revolution and we don't need to operate on that model anymore and I think we need to recognise that and start to operate differently because we're trying to shoehorn a dated structure often into, we're trying to shoehorn people into a dated structure when they can work differently and the way they live their lives and the influences they have are driven by other external forces and we're not linking up with that in a business perspective. That's true, that's true. It's that traditional model of, so when you sort of went to school, you worked, you retired and you had it in a framework of nine to five, generally speaking. We're going to have to do some generalisations here. So please excuse that but that's kind of, but that's broken.  Why do you think it's broken? Because I think there have been many drivers in the last few years, if you think about maybe from 20 2008 onwards when we had the sort of financial meltdown and then people's, and that changed in terms of people's financial ability to retire when they wanted to retire in the mid fifties and sixties and then also I think you have to layer on to that the fact that we are very different people now at 53 or 50 or whatever it might be or 60 than we were 50 or 60 years ago. I mean my grandparents or my grandmother or father at 53 were very different animals than I am. So we're fitter, we have a different intellectual view about how we approach the world and I think we don't always, I think we need to play catch up from a business perspective in how we utilise those drivers because I certainly feel that I think it's a combination of things. I felt maybe incorrectly that perhaps at this age I felt I was being sidelined because I think it's a conversation around talent as well and I still my view myself as a talented person. A sidelined in the company you're working in? Yes, yes. Maybe incorrectly and it's a wonderful company, I'm going to say that it is a wonderful company but I was feeling like I had, I kind of plateaued out and I'm still ambitious and I think when we talk about talent and we have companies focusing on talent they tend to focus on young talent. Just by nature, I'm very willing to be challenged on that by the way but I think that's something that people do when they talk about talent they talk about young talent. But actually you have talent right across your organisation and if we look at I think since 2014 we've now got five generations in the workplace. 16 to 80 years old or something. So there's a traditionalist? I'm going to do this now because I'm going to throw a bit of practical stuff in here. So the traditionalists were born before 1946. You've got baby boomers of 46 to 64. You've got Generation X which is 65 to 76. Gen Y which is 1977 to 97 and Generation Z God love them born after 1997. After like I'm not a generation. So there's now actually, so I am a Generation X. I thought I was a baby boomer but I've not. I've just scraped into Generation X. So I'm feeling quite happy about that. So you would be a Gen X as well? Yeah, I was born in 1981.  Thank you, thank you. The interesting thing is those labels. You end up thinking, do I demonstrate those? I don't think I demonstrate personally the characteristics of somebody born in 1965 which is when Generation X is categorised from. But I feel like now that what I'm looking for in my career going forward and I view myself as a talented person in many respects and again willing to be challenged on that. But what I want from a career now is what a lot I think of the Gen Y and the Generation Z may be looking for in that agility and flexibility around how they work. So I'm looking for an age appropriate career going forward. I could be working for another 20 years. Well there's no retirement age. There's no retirement age. And we've got to get over talking about, I know it's one of those protected characteristics now in age. It's not something that you can discriminate over. So I think we've still got to have conversations around it. And I could be working for another 20 years potentially. Maybe because I want to, maybe because I have to. Probably a combination of both if I'm honest. And so I am not going to spend the next 20 years not utilising my experience. But I want to do it now in a way and I think if you read the literature around this it's something that comes out. As you get older and you have more experience you want to be able to use your experience and your skillsets for a company in a sort of more flexible, more agile way. Not necessarily being the 9-5 aspect. I don't necessarily really have had a 9-5 job for a long time. But I want my value to be, when I'm there I want to be adding value. But I now want and recognise that it's also important to have a good work-life balance. But it shouldn't mean the fact that I want to work a bit differently. That I'm not any more serious about my career than I was 20 years ago. But I think there's a perception around age. Age no longer means seniority in companies is no longer linked to age. It's more meritocratic I think. And so you've got that sort of management hurdle to think about as to how you actually handle that. And not sideline your talent. If it's older talent, I think you need to start to encompass... There's lots of ways I think that companies can utilise talent and young talent together. I read an interesting stat a while ago, which was in the independent at the end of 2017. Which said three quarters of 25 to 34 year olds can sit themselves discriminated against for being too young. And over half of over 55s say they have been discriminated against unfavourably. So you get this discrimination about age at both ends of the scale. You feel like you're discriminated at both ends. I certainly have colleagues within that 25 to 34 age group who go for roles and then be told they're not older. You often get feedback from clients they're not quite experienced enough or they're over qualified for the role. What you really want is can someone do the job? It doesn't matter whether they've done something bigger or could they still... I mean I think for being too young let's say people are very scared to give them the current economic environment to give someone a chance for the younger people. For the older people who just want to do this particular job they've applied for then the employer gets scared if they've done something bigger and you often get that feedback. That's interesting. But it's a question of understanding what people want from what they're being asked to do. I think companies have this vision in mind of what everybody should look like. Yes. And B. I'd like to start to challenge that a bit because I certainly want to work in a way going forward on how I think younger colleagues or the younger generations coming into the workforce want to work as well. I really think this nine to five thing is a broken concept. I think there are roles that you have to be around for. I accept that in our industry with underwriting and broken. There are busy times of year and renewal periods etc. So I get that you have to be around but I think we have to really move away from this construct and actually look at people's value. No, I agree. The other thing is also the way people work and mindset crosses age because you can get really young people with actually not such a forward-thinking innovative mindset and vice versa. I've been really interested in this growth mindset. This lady called Dr Cowell Duweck she coined the phrase for education teaching young people and it's the kind of idea that you can continue to learn, develop, improve etc. I think whatever age you have you have that mindset now. I think that's really interesting because I was asked to look at age as a driver for something else other than our conversation today and you know that one of the things I do is I'm very involved in a gender network and I started looking at age and I actually then I think age is a I've come to an idea and I'm starting to try and articulate it better that age is a huge driver across all of the other characteristics that perhaps we feel we fail at whether it's gender, whether it's LGBT issues whether it's class, educational diversity this age thing it's a commonality amongst us all. It doesn't matter if you're black or white straight gay, it doesn't matter age is something that we all cope with and I think things are happening to people in life these days, much later in life whether it's families you've got people caring for older relatives because they're living much longer and so when you look at this from a gender perspective male or female these are issues that affect all of us and I think if we tackle age things we then start to tackle some of the other related issues around that and I often wonder if we start to do age really well and how we manage that we might actually then just start to naturally tackle some of the other inequalities that we might face in the workplace because when you start to look at age and what you need, how you need to support somebody and then it becomes a question of supporting them whether they're looking after children it can be male or female or looking after elder relatives again the same thing you take it out of just that gender sort of framework for example and I think if you start to tackle age well and manage those drivers it just automatically will start to improve things in other areas I think it's a huge driver and I hadn't really considered it as so important before I'd always felt that there were and I've had Ben challenge me on this and I feel in the older as you get towards your 60s they feel discriminated against for being older and their value it's about how you feel valued by a company but you know I've always felt that women have always been viewed on how they look and what their age is and that sort of natural value in the workplace and that sort of well but then also maybe it's worse when they're younger because we have this mother equally it can work either way so I think we get I think age is a very visual thing do you think we're getting better now I don't know I'm not sure it's the answer I think it's one of those things I don't think people are really focusing I think there's a lot of talk around it and there's a lot of you can find lots of research on this I'm a big fan of the Harvard Business Review and they come up with some great articles around multi-generational issues but there was something I came across which was done by Barclays Business Banking and who were looking at how companies are being established and they were noting that the fastest growing age group of UK business owners in the last 10 years has been the over 65s and I think that's really interesting and they came up with some tips about how as mature entrepreneurs or older entrepreneurs which I hate that I hate made up words but older entrepreneurs but I think the list is relevant for everybody and it's sort of know your subject, know your business strategy get tech savvy have confidence in your abilities look after your well-being that's huge looking after your well-being is huge that's one of these layers around age that we have in the working environment because we're all living much longer we're all much fitter that's a whole like 10 podcast and mentally as well as our expectations are very different than they were but if you really get into your fitness and your health mentally it helps you so much no I'm a big fan of that and then I was I then started to look at I've been asked to talk to a group of younger people in the workplace and about personal branding I started to consider what that meant and I came across a list that Warren Buffett came up with oh right interesting who's what 90 something and still 90 something that was just incredible and one of the things he says is invest in yourself he reads books he challenges himself he takes courses he learns new things and investing yourself is a huge thing whether you're young or whether you're old and I think if you invest in yourself then you're automatically more able to take advantage of perhaps a new framework in a company you know the drivers that companies are looking for these days then I think you've become a more relevant asset for them I'm a big fan of that so I try and do those things and there is a certain level of frustration around how do we as companies recognise that companies or individuals I think it's both I think companies need to recognise that people don't stop when they're 50 that they're not just going to go down until they some people may want to it's about choice equality of opportunity and so that you need to harness your experience and then and in talking to younger colleagues they don't have softer skills that perhaps we have as the older generational workforce because we've had different drivers throughout our career wherever those things are quite technically based these days social media plays a big part in how you interact with groups and talking to people and how you behave at interviews and all those kind of softer skillsets are not quite so prevalent well now they need to be more and more but they need to be more and more and the older generation are fantastic mentors for the younger generation great and also vice versa and vice versa as well I absolutely agree with that the McKinsey the McKinsey Global Institute did a really interesting report in 2018 so it was on automation in the future of the workforce and they concluded that so the demand going forward is for technological social, emotional and high cognitive skills so those skills the demand for those skills will rise by 2030 and if you think about the insurance industry you've got AI which is going to play a massive part in risk marketing so I think wherever age you are if you're developing those skillsets then you're going to be working really nicely with your new colleague which will be a robot or whatever in theory adopting those technologies within our industry should in theory take away the drudgery of many aspects and allow people to be more creative and I think our industry is an incredibly creative industry really really anything anybody makes or builds or sends to somewhere or comes up with or from a medical perspective or drug related perspective or a new piece of kit or flying off to miles or wherever it might be we as an industry find a product to help them manage their risk in that regard and I think we're hugely innovative and so I think I don't necessarily think instructors of companies in our industry match that innovation and the kind of people they're engaging and then just because somebody has some grey hairs doesn't mean they're not they don't want to be part of that well they can add value or have the right mindset then I think they're going to be working until whenever they want I'm so not perfect but I will there is a sense of frustration with me sometimes when I have meetings or meet other people and that they they automatically assume that they don't need to be interested in a more social media technological AI world but you absolutely do it's here it doesn't matter you can look at it from a work perspective but you can also look at it from your social life perspective if you have grandchildren if you have friends whatever it could be that you need to have a way of interacting and understanding what's driving people and being able to take part in it I just hate it when people say I'm not doing that I do I love it I would never have half as much interaction with my son unless I did all this stuff I don't think we're on Instagram together so I'll add to you my grandma she's 96, she has an iPhone my mom's a silver surfer so I love that I think it's for me it's the mindset and if people have the right mindset I don't think it really matters what age and they'll start to do better but I think there's that sort of expectation that you get to a certain age you don't need to do certain things with some people and I just think that's rubbish so how would you then change the making more agile or using new technologies to enable people to do that I think one of the things for me is if we look at mentoring for example and new projects within a company I think there's quite often when you have a new product or a new idea and it's perhaps has a technological basis for it into your tech or whatever it might be there is a tendency to people and staff that with young people for a wonderful better phrase but you know what I mean with young people because I'm clearly so old with young people but actually within that I think within companies there's a mentoring scheme you need to have some kind of scheme where you have a project you need to look at that project and the team and decide that you're going to have some older people in there older people in there not because they can answer the tech questions but they might be able to say right we tried to do this 20 years ago but the technology wouldn't allow us to but when we were thinking about doing it these are our problems if you're telling me you can solve these problems then this is a great idea and I can tell you that you might be interested in from a business perspective within your modelling so you need to it's a bit like the question about what makes a good board these days it's about having a diverse group of people identifying what skills you need and then factor in the fact that it is good to have somebody there that says we did talk about this 15 years ago and this was an issue the more opinions the better decision making the better options I think we don't do that we often silo things so I would say that every company internally if you have a project or you have something an acquisition you're working on make sure that you're peopleing it populating it with people of all skill sets and those skill sets will involve people of different ages you find people high badly typically, they're high people like themselves and they don't think about the skill sets they're looking for and that's a big issue if they take a little bit of time and sit down and think about why they want a certain type of person and the different types of skills then you can start to address these issues so what happens though if they need someone working 8-10 hardcore I think that's something that you I think that's I don't know the answer to that I think it depends on what your objectives are and your timeframes are I think if people are part of a team and they have an objective terrain for I think everybody will pitch in but what I'm saying is if you have those people on those teams use them when you need to use them for their particular skill sets no it's great to do that it's a bit I think firms are going it's a slow I think it's a slow moving it's very slow moving because people still like someone's a full time employee managers are interesting to hear how you've experienced managing all these different ages but it's a tough one right it's like the working from home thing it's quite hard to manage you need to have the trust level I think it's the trust aspect is a huge driver in that and I think that's something that I think is changing slowly changing but that has that trust aspect has changed a bit I think I say that I'm thinking about it now it depends like if you've just hired someone and you don't know them then you want to see that you'd like to work with them get friends with them, connect and stuff see there's a lot of issues around it I think as we go forward and technology massively changes the organisational design structures and maybe we'll get to a scenario where yeah I mean we've done that here we have all us as a web based we have these phones on our laptops and our mobiles and everything we can work from the beach in Cape Town and that's one of my things I know people have a bit of a downer about social media and technology because it can be poorly managed and it can be a very sort of invidious in people's lives in terms of how destructive it can potentially be to people but if you think about it when you wake up in the morning I would rather wake up and deal with my emails you know every time you pick every time you pick an iPad up or your iPhone up or whatever it is you are potentially working and so deal with you can deal with the Monday next bit something coming but companies need to recognise that you are doing that stuff maybe in a different framework than they are expecting you to do it but it doesn't mean you don't do it and it's a trust thing and it's being bold isn't it I think about that I still go back for me going forward it's mindset it's continued to learn it's being resilient tech savvy building your brand I think this tech saviness is one thing that does irritate me about some of my friends they just seem to think I don't need to social media or tech tech why do I need to understand that do we say the majority of your friends aren't interested in learning or experimenting or trying I think there becomes all of them but I think in certain I've got friends who are they're just so not interested in any of this just not at all and yet you pick up the paper today and you find that we need to ditch half of the old NHS IT systems get rid of the fax machines they're still using and actually have an integrated IT answer to being able to ensure that our records are where they should be with who needs to see them and the access is there so that we get better health advice for example and that was in the paper today and I just you know and also in the paper today it was a really interesting article about how talking to people who are working longer people are 60 plus working in industry who are choosing to work because it's it's a social I think the social aspect of work is huge as well being you get from working oh it's great my mum works for us she comes in two days a week sometimes three she's worked with me since I started my business and I don't think she'll want me to say how old she is but she loves it and my dad he retired he was a risk manager and then about five months in he was like this is really boring and now he works for my cousin running his finance department and he's 70 it's great isn't it? because you know older people have a lot of knowledge that they can share the mentoring aspect but also for me I just keep going back to it but the mindset is so important because if you're open to learning stuff I mean it doesn't matter how old you are you're learning and that's another on Warren Buffett's little list he said be a lifelong learner be a lifelong learner somebody gave me a link the other day to something fascinating app called course era I've done a few courses on I've started doing that it's outstandingly good you've got the Wharton Business School Duke Business School doing online courses for 50 quid they're amazing so I'm doing one with the moment in New York on an article and it's fantastic it's completely amazing they're called their MOOCs massive online learning communities because now with technology rather than educating 100 people in a youth group at Yale you've got the world so people who can't afford to relocate to America can just access it online I started this course and you started to pay 50 quid 48 quid, I think it was 48 quid and you have access to all of their database and information and learning and it works through this course it's supposed to take five weeks I think I'm already over halfway through it because it's just amazing the videos the chat forums and stuff wow so I picked something that I'm interested in that's not work related but I might even now consider doing a coding one how to code why not and I just think that accessibility to learning is there through stuff that some of my friends say well I don't need to use a laptop or I don't need to look at my phone I'm like oh fed and stuff it's awesome, even the podcast we're doing now if you think back even like 20 years ago the way to disseminate knowledge was the written word but a lot of people can't read in the world but with YouTube, with podcasting suddenly the spoken word is getting out a lot more this is a half an hour but you can get a really long format podcast where people are learning quite detailed subjects and then with the Coursera stuff we're actually just starting to use a digital learning platform as well so our guys are going to be and girls are going to be able to choose which courses and stuff they want to learn online, on the smartphone it's great and none of it is very difficult to learn how to use and I just think that's that's a bit about all of this development and the way the world has changed in terms of my working life from remembering the first Wang computers when they came in to back everything and how it's changed and I just think I think how fantastic that is I just think it's fantastic is it difficult to keep up with such change I don't personally find it but then perhaps I'm more curious than most people about it because that's perhaps part of me that has a natural affinity I've always liked tech stuff I'd love to have been an electrician actually if I could pick anything I'd be a really good electrician so it's kind of I think you have a maybe your brains are wired in the same way but I've always enjoyed that the new stuff but it's interesting that if we ask the friends of yours that don't want to learn all this stuff is it because it's like hard or an effort are they seeing it as a real effort I think it's like a brick wall and it's incomprehensible but they don't quite know perhaps how to make the effort to start to break that wall down it's interesting so we can do some work with people like that around how to use new technology and stuff then maybe we'll start to break down some of the age discrimination barriers and so I'm a big fan of all that and one thing I do have really enjoyed over the last however long I've been working is the fact that you get to work with people of different ages who come from different environments and have interesting, find out about them and have interesting things going on in their lives and I really value working with different age groups and if you take the time to work out what's interesting to people you can end up having a fantastic working environment without it being a toxic or challenging environment and I think that goes up and down the scale as well I think for me as an older person in the workforce having a younger manager doesn't bother me they still have to be good have you ever had one? they have to be good I don't mind that but what I also think is important is that they have an appreciation of what your talents you bring to the table so that's something that I think is part of this managing these generational things within the workplace a lot of interesting challenges to come there are actually but I'm here certainly here talking to you the fact that I might be working for another 20 years a huge amount of pleasure and also fills me with a massive amount quite horror as well actually because I want to I want to ensure that I add value and I'm not just sidelined I mean with the fact that you won't be the stuff you get involved in the way the conversation we've been having it's a very I'm speaking as a female clearly perspective I think age is a very awkward thing to cope with from your personal own viewpoint about age and then companies view of age man or female I think it's a very sensitive subject and we need to talk about it I think because we need to work out how we thrive in a different kind of business model that's not this full-time education full-time work, full-time retirement that's gone, that's just gone there's a good book called The Hundred Year Working Life mentioned this before probably end up having three different careers if you're born now you'll live to a hundred odd so it's a long gone of the days of education work retirement retirement now and I'm not sure what that means anymore I mean most people can't afford it anyway the average pension cut in the UK I can't afford to my view is I'm probably thought of retiring at 55 is A, never going to happen financially perspective and B I'm just so not ready for that and if you love what you do it's great it's good to do different things so it'd be interesting to see I think if companies can come up with some kind of mentoring scheme that's not quite as vanilla as mentoring schemes are with but actually include reverse mentoring in it and then when you have a project you look at who's on that project and actually make a decision to have a diversity of age within a project because just because something's tech doesn't mean have some different kind of input into a project development I think that's some of that siloing is something that would be good to break down definitely that's kind of why I'm calling mum age really and then it kind of leads into all sorts of other stuff isn't it well let's do another podcast on I think, oh there's so many really I think nothing in the working piece that we're in is not connected everything is connected whether it's LGBT, gender age, class, religion whatever it might be and I think one of the things that we don't talk about enough is educational diversity I think educational diversity is again something one of the big things I've seen in the marketplace which I love is how professional we've become as a marketplace where these days and I got involved earlier towards the end of last year in helping to put together an apprenticeship scheme for somebody using the government's apprenticeship scheme which if you can navigate your way through the absolute pain in the ass that it is to it's an incredible way to learn without coming out without being burdened by a loan without being that there are so many ways these days to start your career straight from school 16, 18 do you want to learn on the job and be supported that way get this apprenticeship scheme going it's an amazing scheme absolutely amazing it's so hard to get down it is but I still think in the insurance market if you want to get to a CEO position or board level nowadays it's quite well I will challenge you I know that Inge gets bail that the lawyers get cited so many times that Inge is a classic example of somebody that doesn't have a degree and that's to be hugely for me is as much as as anything else she's done I think that to me is an incredible achievement not because I think it proves that you can have value and be experienced you don't have to be the same as everybody else you're right I'm helping my cousin's kid who's just about to start up a sick and they feel at that age a real pressure to do really well at their go to university get a degree do their masters maybe so you end up I think there's a lot of pressure for young people to still do that if they want to follow a professional kind of career but I think that the apprenticeship schemes are great because you don't do it and I don't think companies take it mind but it was just something that I got involved in in terms of looking at IT getting an IT apprenticeship and it was just I was blown away by how you could come out with a degree in two years without any loan without and companies we have to over 250 employers have to contribute to it anyway so you've got these massive credits being built up and we're not utilising it I just think that way of thinking though and having educational diversity is massively important and where people's backgrounds are and what drives them it would be interesting hopefully people's views will change on people who don't have degrees because there's been a period of you know the other thing is we've been able to work with a few charities to try and get like recovering drug addicts, alcohol etc back into work and there's that stigma attached to people who have been through that experience and trying to get them back into work just a lot to do there is a lot to do but there's a lot of other conversations to be had around this but I do think education diversity is really an interesting one again that we don't speak about very often and the advantages of having a different kind of thing around your table it's really exciting let's do that on our next podcast alright then I really enjoyed it I love talking to you we will both do our best to break down the barriers of age discrimination hey yes please definitely hey folks thanks for listening don't forget to subscribe in all the usual places