Hello, everyone. Good afternoon. Welcome to our panel discussion this afternoon, which is one of the activities under the eighth edition of the Kampala International Theatre Festival. We are very, very happy to have you and to welcome you. This is the last day of the festival, and so it makes sense that as we conclude this festival, we get to talk about the landscape of the arts and the artists in our country. My name is Asimueh Debrakawi, and I am one of the directors of the Kampala International Theatre Festival and I'm the producing artistic director of Tiberi Arts Foundation, which is the organization that produces the Kampala International Theatre Festival. I would like to thank our panelists this afternoon. Thank you so much for giving us your time and your wisdom to talk about the topic in question for today's discussion. I am now going to introduce the moderator for the panel discussion, and it is my pleasure to briefly talk about Goretti, who I highly admire because of her work internationally as well as internationally. Goretti Kamuhendo is one of Uganda's leading novelists and founding director of the African Writers' Stretch, promotes synergies and collaborative learning between African writers on the continent and in the diaspora. She was appointed chair of judges for the Aquacaine Prize for African Writing in 2021, the first Ugandan woman writer to receive the International Writing Program Fellowship at the University of Iowa. Goretti has been recognized for her work as a writer and literally activist nationally and internationally, and has participated in numerous forums worldwide. In 2019, Goretti was featured among the 100 most influential Africans by the UK best selling pan-African magazine, New African. In 2020, she was appointed a member of the Commonwealth Foundation Civil Society Advisory Governors representing Africa. Her novels, including The First Daughter, published in 1996, Secrets No More, published in 1999, which won the Uganda National Literary Award for Best Novel in the same year, and Waiting, published by the feminist press in New York in 2007. In 2014, she published the Essential Handbook for African Creative Writers. She has also published several children's books and short stories. Goretti is a founding member of FemRite Uganda Women Writers Association and Publishing House. She has worked and has worked as its first director for 10 years from 1997 to 2007. Thank you so much, Goretti, for allowing to be our moderator for this panel discussion, and I now hand it over to you. Thank you very much to introduce the panelists and take the discussion forward. Okay, thank you so much. Same way Deborah Kauai and your whole team at Kampala International Theater Festival. Thank you for inviting me to be part of this very exciting program. And I'd also want to thank you Deborah and your team for managing to pull off this eighth edition of the Kampala International Theater Festival. Amidst all the difficulties we've had associated with the ongoing COVID-19 pandemic, I know this hasn't been very easy at all. It hasn't been for everyone, so I really want to applaud you for not giving up for keeping the arts sector alive in Uganda. Thank you so much for that. I'm going to start by introducing our panel for today's discussion. We have three panelists, Charles Batamze. Charles Batamze is an advocate and promoter for the writing, book publishing and copyright based industries. He currently heads the National Book Trust of Uganda, Nabutu, which is a private sector led book council, and also the Uganda, the production rights organization, which is a collecting society. He is very active in promoting the broader culture and creative industries as a leader of the National Culture Forum. The second panelist is also Charles Malekwa. Dr. Charles Malekwa is a committed dramatist, that's how he describes himself. He has been active in the field of drama since his secondary school days. I don't want to contemplate how long ago that was, but I know Charles has been really associated with the drama for as long as we can remember. And this has been at both national and international levels. He operates especially in four mediums of storytelling, that is in stage, radio, television and film. Dr. Charles Malekwa is currently a lecturer at Makere University, specializing in dramatic writing. Another panelist who is the only female panelist including myself on the panel is Elza Best in Bawazi. Elza Best works with Civic Source Africa, which is a philanthropy support organization based in Kampala in Uganda. Elza Best is in charge of the Kwanesha Art Fund, which is hosted and managed by Civic Source Africa. So this afternoon here in Uganda, East Africa, it is our afternoon, we are honored to host this distinguished panel of experts in the arts and cultural sectors. I would like to assure our audience wherever you may be, that this afternoon we are in capable hands, as we discuss and deliberate on this relevant and thought-provoking topic. Our topic for discussion this afternoon is quite broad. And it is entitled, seeking arts and cultural networks and organizations that are transparent and artist-centered. Where does one start from? And where have the arts and cultural organizations succeeded or failed in supporting their constituencies? Do these arts or cultural organizations or networks need to be accountable? How can the relationship be mutually beneficial and in what ways? Before I invite our panelists to each give a brief take on the topic, I would just like for us to think about the topic. And when I was doing that myself, I picked out what I thought were the key words or the key areas for discussion. And to me, these were seeking arts and cultural networks and organizations that are transparent and artist-centered. I thought that was a very important phrase for us to contemplate on as we started the discussion of this important topic. And then the other one was, have arts and cultural organizations succeeded in supporting their constituencies? Have they failed? Do these arts or cultural organizations or networks need to be accountable? And when I was thinking of that, I thought we should even add accountable to who? To the constituencies, to their sponsors or donors. So I'm going to invite each panelist to give us a brief take on the topic. And I will start with Charles Mulekwa. Charles, please, can you make your presentation on the topic? Thank you. And my friends, it gives me pleasure to be here today as some of us noted the topic is fairly white. And what I did is I tried to break it into four small pieces, starting with the first statement, which is the quest of seeking for arts and cultural networks and organizations that are transparent and artist-centered. For me, whereas that is the focus, I shall borrow from the Catholic faith, which has a great phrase to summarize my thinking on it and say it is white and fitting. Effectively, it is white and fitting for the organizations and the artists themselves to be transparent, to operate in transparent manner, and that the organizations also need to figure ways to be artist-centered. Of course, the connotations of that for the artists may be that with that comes responsibilities which I shall look at below. So on the question of where does one start from and where have the arts and cultural organizations exceeded or failed in supporting their constituencies, the answers or the questions are far more than we can manage even in the entire afternoon of the panel. But what I have to offer right now is that to understand where we are and to figure where we are going, we need to pay attention to where we have been. It is very trendy nowadays to hear artists imagine and go ahead to claim as well as proclaim that there was more or less nothing before they came around. This is a fallacy. And I think we would all do well to honor the footprints of our field. I personally believe our careers were forged long before we came around. Now, things like innovation, inspiration, revelation. This is what may be new, because this happened according to need and times. But it is not going to stand or hold water if you base it on no foundation. Therefore, I think a starting point might be to look at our foundations, look at what was there, what worked well, what needs to be sustained and what needs to be changed. Now, motivation is an ever existing factor that links the ages, the past, the present and the future. Therefore, what moved in the 60s, 70s, 80s and 90s changes decade by decade. Simply put, what drives artists changes every 10 years or so. There was a period when we're all focused on art for a sec. I think then we moved it to economically viable art. And then they developed what I could not figure out how to call it, so I called it scholarship art. Effectively, where your art led you to a scholarship and the scholarship supposedly led you to more art. And I think thereafter this come funded art where to do art, you need some form of funding or the other. Of course, I'm not saying that artistic practice is not possible without those listed trends. It is possible. I can always find a way, one way or the other, we all know about poor theater and so on. But I'm going to leave it to the current generation to decide where we are now and where we are going from wherever we may be, because I think that progressively their responsibility, their time for responsibility has arrived. In the last bit, do these arts or cultural organizations or networks need to be accountable? Baganda have a very fine expression, and that expression is Jaco Acabuza, i.e. remove the question mark and apply either the exclamation mark, or better, a period. Just put period, so that the phrase itself is no longer a question, it becomes a statement. Of course, our moderator, through a spanner in the works and asked, yeah, but accountable to whom? To respond to that, I'd like to move to the next stage of the thought, which is how can the relationship, because we're accountable to relationships, I think. I think that we are accountable to relationships. So how can the relationship be mutually beneficial and in what ways? I suggest that we need to harness the chicken and the egg. You cannot have the chicken without the egg, you cannot have the egg without the chicken. So to neglect one and privilege the other is a fault, it's pure foolishness. The networks need to support the artists, and the artists need to be responsible, not only in their artistic roles, but also in their relationship to the networks. Other ways may be publication of facts so that people are making artistic choices or performing creative activity from an informed point of view. We also need to have access to terms of reference and guidelines. I don't think that there is an artistic endeavor that is successful without proper regulations, rules and regulations. However, it is the tendency with many organizations that artists do not have access to these guidelines that regulate our way of life, so that they may work with an entire organization, but all they are talking to is a person who tells them whatever they want to say, is they do not have a place where they can cross check what it is they have been told, or also something to fall back on in case they hit a roadblock in their effort to execute their work. And so a fair method might be to think about how artistic practice happens. We need to get home to our way of life to achieve a great show you need a balance in terms of producer, script, director, cast and crew. I think the same applies to the relationship between artists and cultural networks or organizations. The audience cannot thrive without grooming and mentoring artists, while the artists cannot grow without accounting for their role to the networks and did the long run to the audience, which is the public. Thank you very much. Thank you very much, Charles, for your contribution. I think before we move on to the next panelist I was just noting down some of the things that you raised that we should keep at the back of our minds as we continue with the with the discussion. I think one of the things you did very well was to break down the different kinds of arts that we are functioning with at the moment. Because you asked what drives art that is economically viable art, maybe before that you started with the foundation. What was there before on whose shoulders are we standing as we do our art, who was there before us, should we acknowledge them, should we look back and see how things were done before coming to where we are now. Before, as you mentioned, art was for the sake of art, people would write or produce a play or paint a visual art piece. But now the issue of funding came into play. And I think that's where accountability also comes from. What are the terms of reference. If you are being given money to produce art, who are you accountable to actually, is it your constituency or to your sponsor who has given you the money, the funded art as you said. And then on the issue of accountability, you used the Uganda saying, I'm sorry, I can't repeat it because my. Jack. Otherwise, we don't need to ask it is pretty obvious that yes accountability is required. And I think what also brought out was it should be a it should be the children, it shouldn't be one, one way. One way accountability kind of it should be artists should account to the networks that are supporting them, but also the network should account to the artists. So I thought that was very well articulated. So we are going to move on to our second panelist with the Charles, but I'm busy. Charles, if you can give us your take the other channels on the topic. Thank you very much. Great. Our person, ladies and gentlemen. It's a very great pleasure for me to be speaking to this subject. My approach will be from the point of some kind of testimonies, because I believe what ads organizations are doing. And how the membership has responded speaks a lot to the issues of today's discussion accountability what we're doing and so on. Let me see whether I can screen share. Yes. I thought in my testimony. I would look at. Okay, what the legal policy framework is like. But for us to, to set up these organizations and be able to run them. They have to work within an environment. Then I sing without two organizations types of organizations for artists, one of them is CMOS or collective management organizations. Then the other one is a national culture forum. I'll show how what they are doing and how accountable they are. In terms of the environment in which we work. The constitution of Uganda provides for the right of association. So the fact that people come together artists is not something that happens accidentally. But it is something that is the right. And in many of the engagements that we've had with the artists, many have said, but it is our right to associate. So it is our right to set up as many organizations as possible. So the constitution is a key document. Number two, in terms of our practice as artists and writers and so on. So the National Christian Police of 2006 is a key document is a key instrument that guides our operations. And the next is the copyright and the Marine West Act 2006, which provides for the collecting society or the collective management organizations that I talked about. And in terms of these organizations, we currently have three, we just have done that the copyright act. One of them is the Uganda Performing Rights Society or UPRS. Next is Uganda Reproduction Rights Organization. UPRS protects the copyright of musical works. The Uganda Reproduction Rights Organization protects the copyright of literary works. And the third organization, the Uganda Federation of Movie Industry which protects the copyright of movies or film works, cinematographic works. In terms of accountability. These organizations are provided for under the copyright and the Marine West Act 2006, which provides for how they are registered, how they should be managed, and how they should account to the members. So for these organizations, they are legally obliged to be accountable. To do annual audits, to make information about tariffs, to make information about membership and so on, available to whoever wants it. And I know that in terms of the members are setting their rights over these organizations. UPRS for instance, last year, no in 2019, the members, there were lots of complaints about the operations of the organization and the regulator, Uganda Registration Services Bureau had to take action. One by removing the board that was running UPRS as well as the management and appointing a caretaker. So the members had to speak up in order for the regulator to take action. It's because it's within the law, and the members asserted this right that is provided for them to be able to make effective changes. By the way, these collective money organizations are private, but government has an interest, simply because they collect money for and on behalf of the rights holders. Then the Uganda Federation of the industry in 2018, I think, some members went to court and they were concerned about how their affairs, the way the organization was being run. And they wanted the organization to do better in terms of governance, in terms of openness, in terms of transparency. So for these organizations that have a law that supports the operations and whatever, we can learn from the two examples that have given that the members do assert themselves either through court or via the regulators to ensure that, you know, these organizations can be transparent, they can be open, and so on. Next is the National Culture Forum, which is provided for under the National Culture Policy of 2006. The policy says that there shall be a private sector-led organization known as the National Culture Policy, where the private sector and civil society will participate in the implementation of the culture policy. And the National Culture Forum has four duties. One of them is to lobby for the members, to build the capacity of members, to participate in the implementation of the National Culture Policy. There was no more government and the people that were there when this policy was being set up, they thought that our organizations within the culture policy, I mean within the field of arts and culture, were not as actively engaged in the activities of culture as was necessary. So it was therefore necessary for the policy to provide that, you know, these organizations can work under National Culture Policy. I have had engagements with artists and other people over working together, unity. The challenge has been that, you know, every artist works as an individual, they don't care about their organizations. But I've always told them that when you approach government as an individual, and of course as individuals, different individuals, what government hears is noise. But when you approach government as a united front, then government will take action. So the National Culture Policy is a private sector led and currently it has 61 associations drawn from the nine domains of arts, arts, culture and creative industry. The National Culture Forum is working to streamline the sector so that we can have a collective voice on everything that concerns our industry. I know. Yeah, so those are some of the members of the National Culture Forum. Those organizations that are supposed to be transparent, open, that are governed well and so on. Currently there are 61 associations that are members of the National Culture Forum. And as a forum, you know, working together, we, I can say we have achieved a number of things. But initially, we set up to advance for key demands. One of them, we have demanded from government, a Minister of Arts and Culture. Many of you know that we always had a Minister of Arts and Culture until 1993, when it was removed, and actually it was dismembered. So one part of the Minister went to the Minister of Gender, Love and Social Development, where we have a culture department. Then the other part went to the Minister of Tourism, where we have the Uganda Museum. We are telling government that artists, writers and so on, were often in 1993. And because they were often, their issues are not covered in national plans and budgets. It is a shame, I've always said that, for instance, we continue to have only one theater, the National Theater, which is funded from public funds. We only have one National Gallery, the Nomo Gallery, which is funded from public funds. This is not fair to the artists that contribute so much to the economy of Uganda. So as under the National Culture Forum, we are advancing that issue. And the artists are actively followed in ensuring that you know this oftenness, or being often the ends, and ensuring that we have a Minister of our own. The second key demand, we have demanded that government improves the enforcement of the copyright law. The truth is, artists and writers and so on, are only earning from one revenue stream. For music and even the performers in theater, in theater they only earn from the tickets that they sell at the box office. If you are for music, it's a music show. And now in these times of COVID-19, when these places have been locked down, it is impossible. The artists are not earning anything. But the copyright law, for instance, for music, there are 37 ways through which artists could be earning. But some of these ways have been clogged, that we can work together with the collecting societies, with these associations that I'm displaying over there, to ensure that the different markets that need to pay for using music or books or whatever actually pay the royalties to the writers. So our demand has been that, you know, government improves the ways through which the collecting societies, or supports the collecting societies to be able to collect royalties. So we need a lot of government support. One of the ways, Sierra Beaches or colouring back tones, from which we could collect 70 billion, because this is what MTN and all the others have been collecting. But the artists have been earning peanuts. So we are advocating and agitating that, you know, let there be fairness. Because MTN or Airtel, at the end of the day, they become the biggest taxpayers. But the truth is, it is artists that are making them to be the biggest taxpayers. And I think that accountability and the governance and transparency or whatever can be built on the strong foundation. That, you know, we are doing things that are strategic, things that change the status of the artists. And one of them is the Sierra Beaches. If we can have a fair share of the 70 billion, then I'm sure the artists will be more assertive, because they will know that working together is helpful. Working together takes them a long way. Last month, we were in the Ministry of Finance. You know, again, collectively, we were led by the comedians, Bojingo, Ancansime, and others, and we went to the Ministry of Finance to add for what is called a private copy levy. Nowadays, most of the copyright protected works are exploited by our staff, by the other social media networks and so on. But the sad thing is that artists don't earn a thing. And we've been saying collectively together, you know, working together, you know, this needs to change. Also, working together, we're able to get the National Association of Broadcasters, for great priority to the artists. And very soon, we shall be talking to the National Council of Higher Education, because most of the books that are used in higher education, especially at the university level, the students just photocopy them. Or they scan them using their smartphones and share within their social media networks. But at the end of the day, the authors earn nothing. And you know, earning something from your suite is something that is very strategic. And so under the National Culture Forum, this is something that we've been working on. So in terms of showing, you know, what these organizations do, what value they add to the artists. I think that these things that are strategic, the things that make a difference to the welfare and life of the artists are very key, the artists or the writer. The third demand, we demanded for a stimulus fund with effect from last year, I think it was around May 2020. When we wrote the petition to government to say that, okay, you have looked down, they are seeing the street, you have put, and up to now actually, public shows, theaters, cinemas and so on, are still under lockdown. Now, if these artists are not working, and yet the shows and whatever were the source of their income. It means that even if you opened in January or whichever time, you don't have capital to invest. So we asked government to provide stimulus fund. And so far, I can say that last year, last financial year, government released 11.2 billion, which went to promote us. And also part of it went to building the institutional capacity of the National Theater of the Association, you know, the 61 that I'm displaying over there. All those associations, most of them have received money to help them set up offices, to help them recruit membership, nationally, to help them set up websites and social media presence. To help them celebrate in their festivals and offer training for their members. You know, bring hope to the membership, because the challenge under COVID-19 has been that a lot of artists and writers have been desperate, because they were not setting anything and they were not bringing any money. So we've used this opportunity of a stimulus fund to do that. Recently, in parliament, the artists supported the Ministry of Gender Leban Social Development to argue for a supplementary fund of 7.7 million. This man is earmarked for a concert. The idea was that, you know, because artists at home, we need to keep them involved, we need to keep them active. And in one of the speeches that the president made, he said, but artists, you can do digital shows, but you know how to do the digital show, if you don't have money. 7.7 billion is supposed to fund the concerts. And to help those artists at home, they were to earn something when they go to perform on TV, but also that these performances can be streamed on their platforms, social media and so on, so that they can add an additional income from that. And finally, the current thing that has captured the interest of everyone, which is the Janza Awards. Again, these ones we have agreed as part of the sector strengthening initiatives. The Janza Awards will provide an incentive to the sector. They are recognizing innovation, productivity, and all other attributes that make it interesting, you know, to belong to an industry. Our fourth demand was the One Stop Centre. We have been urging government to give us Webadja, the hotel in Webadja, so that we can set up this hotel sits on 42 acres of land. We have reached somewhere in terms of our negotiations. Now, in terms of openness and whatever, providing value, adding value to the arts, we, I can say we are moving in a proper way, and we are seeing that unity is a very important thing for us to achieve what we want to achieve. It's not good to just have organizations that are doing nothing. It's a good thing to have organizations that are working together to achieve strategic things, things that change the status of the artists, things that lead to more infrastructure being put in place by government for the artists, but also things that ensure that the environment for practice is good. And talking about the environment for practice, I remember last year, government had come up with the regulations for artists, so artists were supposed to register to get a permit to pay some money and so on. But together we worked together as a whole sector, all the organizations involved, and we went to the Minister of Information which was coming up with these regulations, and they had to stay the implementation because the regulations were unfair. So all these things that we do, all these things that we put out for the benefit of the members, first of all give value to the organizations, but also, in my view, is what makes us relevant. What makes us accountable, because we were delivering on the mandate for which we were set up to do, then the membership will be happy. Nice to end there. Thank you very much. Thank you. Thank you very much Charles for that elaborate presentation. Thank you for laying down the framework, the legal and policy framework under which artists organizations in Uganda operate, including the rights of association, which is ingrained in our Uganda constitution. So thanks for spotlighting the National Culture Forum, which I'm sure many artists have heard about, but we are not quite very clear how it functions. And for the demands, the various and different demands that you've made of government to help the artists I'm sure people will be excited to hear about the different income streams for artists. And also about the copyright issues. So I want us to move to the third panelist who is Elizabeth Mbawazi to also give us her take on the topic before we come back to discussing detail what the other panelists have already raised. Elizabeth. Thank you, Goherty. And thank you for the introduction and for the platform for this conversation. My name is Elizabeth Mbawazi and I support the Kwonyesha Art Fund, which is an arts fund that supports art and artists in the regions of Gulu and Kampala and Karamoja under the CIV fund that is part of CIV source. In today's conversation where we are seeking arts and cultural networks and organizations that are transparent and artist centered. Where does one start from and where have the arts and cultural organizations succeeded or failed in supporting their constituencies. Arts or cultural organizations or networks need to be accountable. How can the relationship be mutual, mutually beneficial and in what ways. I can, I mean this is it's quite a loaded set of questions. I can possibly approach it from sharing the Kwonyesha journey because it is a journey that has given us a lot of learning moments and a lot of humility moments because we sought to interact with artists and be artists centered and support them from their perspective. So I will start from that approach. The Kwonyesha Art Fund supports arts and artists and our motto, which is the CIV fund motto, we do approach it from the context of what is actually happening. So from the sector mapping, there was, there were many issues that were raised. And a lot of these issues speak to the questions that we are seeking to, you know, to deliberate on today. So you do have the, you know, the, when you ask about supporting their constituencies, how many constituencies are there, how many of the artists that are operating in these districts and regions are part of these constituencies or even the different arts forums and artists associations that there are. But are there artists associations in all these regions that are equitable? So you find that the conversation revolved around, you know, lack of art centers, lack of art spaces. We have all the artists looking at the one national space being the National Theater, but how practical is it that from the entire population of the artists in Uganda can be served by the National Theater.  How can they succeed in such a, you know, in such a space and also what can they learn from, you know, from the space itself. We borrow from an African proverb that says we stand on the shoulders of the ones who came before us. And as a program we sought to learn from older professionals, older and practicing artists, even the spaces that are existing. How can we do better given what is existing? What is our foundation? What are the strong pillars that are in place? What is in place and is undeniable is the strength of the arts and the existing arts. So it is not deniable that the arts as a sector is existing and is strong. But what has made it thrive over these several years?  Then you have a lot of, most of those that were strong have thrived by the strength of an investment from different private funds and foundations. And then a lot of what has been pushing them has been the different networks, which then takes us to the networks and organizations. When you speak about networks, you're looking at the collaboration of different groups of people. But in this space, the approach to collaboration you find that presents us with another challenge of the, you know, regional disparities. While the artists in Gulu look at themselves as Gulu artists, the artists in Karamoja as Karamoja artists, the Kampala artists as Kampala artists, even within Kampala itself, you have the urban and downtown artists. So you have those independent silos that have created fractions that have challenged the growth of the sector cohesively together and moving at the same pace. Which then takes us, you know, to another question. While these are growing independently, who is pushing them, how are they growing? And when you speak about accountability and accountability, we are talking about, you know, being responsible, taking ownership, taking leadership, who is taking ownership of the art sector and who is taking leadership and responsibility. Because we're looking at a sector that has the absolute magnitude to influence the nation, the continent, but who is taking ownership of it and who is responsible. Because influence is leadership. So you cannot look at the art sector and ignore the leadership of it. Which is where a lot of what Charles speaks about, the lobbying for ministry, it would be very key because then you can start to spearhead and lobby for a lot of, you know, part of the national cake starting from there, from a platform that is recognized. Because a lot of the challenges that we identified in our research, things like copyright, there is even gender disparities. It's undeniable that you have very few women participating in the arts. I mean, just look at this conversation today. It's just myself and Goethe. And a lot of what is happening then, you know, you need to address all of those independently. It's not a journey that will be taken in one day. Unfortunately, it's a journey that needs to start for you to make progress. Something I could probably also throw to Mr. Charles from the National Culture Forum to address gender. The Janzi Awards already has, you know, unfortunately is also affirming to that gender disparities. You have very few women nominated in categories where we know that there are women participants. And the regional recognition of this, because what kind of awards can these be that are, you know, addressing a certain urban and campala audience, yet we are looking at the growth of the sector, you know, as a whole. Do these arts and cultural organizations on networks need to be accountable, accountable to who by who accountability is two ways. While the artists need to be responsible for the artworks that they produce and the influence and the impact that it has on the community and the society, the cultural organizations that support them also have a duty to the artists to open up their spaces and, you know, be open to the conversation that we are learning, we are learning together, we are learning from and with each other. Let us walk this journey together as opposed to the different power struggles that there are in the relationship. A relationship has got to be mutually beneficial for both parties to be equitable and beneficial to each other, as opposed to it looking, you know, to it looking as a siphoning relationship. So, there are a lot of fragments that can be, you know, can be addressed. The beauty about this all is that it's not impossible. We have a lot of global examples that we can draw from and models that have worked, you know, in South Africa, in Europe, in West Africa, there are models that we can learn from, even just from my neighbor here, Kenya, that we can learn from. Giving the konesha, when you talk about successes and I would not call them failures, they would be challenges because they are steps that can be addressed. You have a sector that has got the free entry and every year you have, you know, burdened, amazing talent. As, you know, as a program, we have looked at supporting areas of Kampala, Ghulan, Karamoja, and I can say that we have so far been able to impact close to a thousand artists. And when I look at the actual funds that have been given to individual arts projects, we have been able to support approximately a hundred arts projects between last year and this year. That's 2020 and 2021. So it is definitely a journey that can be accomplished with steps taken starting from, you know, starting from where we're at. Let's address our foundation, see what's existing and where can we do better. And most importantly, be open to conversation, be open to question, be open to learning because as a sector it has, it's an ecosystem where we work together and we work with each other, the regulating bodies, the artists, the professionals, the consultants. It is a space where you can't be having power struggles. So we look at being able to be part of such learning conversations every year with a lot of the sector players in recognition of everyone's contribution because as the different players, everybody has done a journey that we can definitely learn from. So I invite and encourage the different players to always be open to that conversation because there's no way the relationship can be mutually beneficial if it is not participatory and inclusive of literally all persons and not one foot ahead of the other. You need to move together so that we can all get to this place where we're looking at a sector that is thriving and growing and can actually be, you know, measured in our GDP. And we say we have X amount of, you know, contribution from the art sector and even lobby because we know it's there, we know it's happening, we know it's existing, but it's not documented. It's not, it's not quantified rightfully. Yeah, so it is a process, it is a journey. And that's my contribution. Over to you, Gorete. Thank you very much, Elizabeth, for expanding on the Pwoneisha ads fund. And thank you for highlighting very impressive figures, you know, that so far, maybe I have just one small question, when was it established the Pwoneisha ad fund. The Pwoneisha ad fund was established in 2019. So that is barely 2019. Two years. Well, the first year was the pilot here, through which we did a research and then we did some test grants during 2019 into 2020. And also, just maybe just one thing that we need also as a sector to be able to anticipate emergencies and, you know, and certain certain calamities COVID-19 is just one example. So if we don't have a framework and infrastructure that knows that can, you know, help us navigate these because there'll be something else next year, there'll be something else in 2023 COVID-19 is just one. It is really, I mean, we were shaken, but this should have been a wake up call for us. So to have an infrastructure that is permanent and existent. So in addition to the infrastructure that we should have ads organizations and networks that are resilient. Yes, absolutely. If it's not COVID-19, it'll be something else, but thank you for sharing. Thank you. I'm very impressed with the figures. So far impacted the 1,000 artists and 100 art projects. So that is very impressive. Thank you for that good work. And also that you moved away from the center and operators and Guru and Karamoja. And also about the spaces because one single space in the city is unable to support artists outside that environment. And also, so before, because now we're going to have just a brief discussion between the panelists. Maybe I'll start with you. As the person who has presented the last you raised the issue of leadership of arts organizations and cultural centers and cultural spaces. And the point I doubt that leadership and influence go together. Absolutely. So arts organizations need to have that. And my question or observation from your presentation is most of the people who lead arts organizations are not trained in leadership skills. So you'll find that most of organizations are led by people who have the passion and not the skill they have not been trained leadership skills. So how you address that because I was very excited when you mentioned leadership and influence go hand in hand. So do you have any suggestions of how to improve the leadership skills of people who lead arts organizations. Thank you go ready. I think it is in the recognition that we cannot operate as silos we cannot operate as a single blocks, because we are part of an ecosystem. Nobody can do it all. Nobody knows it all. What we have been able to do is the humility to be willing to learn the humility to be willing to ask questions and the humility to receive feedback. Because a lot of it is constructive and honest feedback. So a leader you can't know it all. So having a framework that allows you to elicit that all those three points is a good starting place to learn. And still using the Konyesha model in recognition that we were not doing this for the first time. It is the first local fund because it is run and managed by Ugandan artists. We have financial contribution from two partners, Stitch-Ting Dune and the Robert Bush Foundation that are foreign. But the management and coordination of the fund is by local Ugandan artists. So when you remove the power center from just one point, you have contribution from many knowledgeable professionals who all bring their wealth of experience and expertise into this space to be able to guide on the different places. So that's how we've been able to navigate the leadership so that you do not have one person being the gatekeeper because that also had challenges as it was identified through the research and noted by many artists. So shifting that load from one person and having many centers support the decision making, the guiding different processes and systems that support that, you're able to navigate the leadership of a space. That's a bit. At that point, I want to bring in Charles, Charles, because Charles from his presentation also touched on funded art, which I also thought was very interesting. He's liberated on the different forms of art, which existed before, which have been existing for some time now, and I think he threw it back today. He called them current artists for them to decide at what stage we are. Is it scholarship art? Is it economically viable art? Or is it funded art? So Charles, in case, because from my experience, I think all art is funded, whether in Africa or in the third world or high income countries, I think all art is funded in one way or the other. So if we want to take away the funded art and do art for the sake of art, what is your suggestion on how this would work? Here, I have not advocated for it to go away, no. It's not true that all art is funded when the majority of art is funded. But there I have lived with and seen, witnessed art that was not funded at all. That's why we have things like Quartierda. There have been cases where art is not funded. But the funding of art has come into sharp focus. We should not run away from it. We should not deny it. But I think we should work out our relationship with it, or indeed its relationship with the artist. So recognize it, know that it is there, and see actually even the different forms, because first of all it was organizationally, for example. But now it's gone even from organizations to centers of power. Let me be straight. So, for example, you can get funding from doing, or from Kwoniesha, or from Tebere, in different proportions, but you can also go to Guru. Yeah, so that's what I mean by the question of funded art. But it's not that it needs to be taken away, no. It is just that what is its relationship and its consequence on the kind of art that we are producing, and on the kind of artists that we are being. Right, but I would love to be funded. But there are circumstances under which I may not accept to be funded. For instance, I think I wrote this point, because both Charles Batambuza and Elizabeth brought it, and they put it in general terms, they talked about it as a possible movement towards the national cake. But for someone like me, I'm still observing, still being scrutinized about the movement into organized theater, and I still declare that I'm an independent artist, because I want to operate in a system where the funding of arts on the level of national cake is as a right, instead of as a carrot and stick. Yeah, because there are cases where it is used as a carrot and as a stick. I would like to be party when it turns to becoming funding as a right, and that funding is informed by accountability. More or less things that I witnessed Kwoniesha and the Tebere do. I'm pretty satisfied with those two artistic organizations. When they change the whole operation, I'll let them know. But at the moment, I'm pretty, pretty impressed and satisfied with the way they operate, that the funding is clear. It is accountable. You can ask questions, you see documents, you are given what you are promised. And if it is not coming, you also explained to, however, I have an uncomfortable feeling that government wants to put us in a position of because I came in when government was still funding the arts.  Now, my friend, but I'm just saying that national theater is a funded body or you got a national, but apart from paying its employees salaries, we are not seeing any productions. I think that is a question of accountability that ultimately, if it is being funded by government from public funds, then it is accountable to the public to commit cultural production. Charles, Charles, I think you would want to come in on that. Thank you very much. I appreciate my brother. My name is Charles. The point he has made, especially about the current from government. And the stick. Yes, and the stick and the comfort about government getting involved. I know that I've had many artists express discomfort about government getting interested in our sector. The truth is, the current levels of funding from the actual budget government is committing 0.000125% of the national budget funding the arts. And the other day I was telling people that if we had thrown that off to the nearest one, it would mean government is actually spending 0% budget on funding the arts. Now this is very bad. The truth is, artists. We entitled to the national cake, as much as agriculture, mining, defense, and so on. So if those Ugandans working in those sectors are entitled to the national budget, we are entitled and we are entitled because we in 2017, our contribution to GDP was 3%, which is equal to 849.6 billion, I mean million US dollars. We employ 386,000 Ugandans that compared to what government employees 500,000 we almost catching up with them. So, Charles, I'm sorry to interrupt. I think what Charles is asking and probably the other people in the audience is yes, the figures may sound small I think you mentioned 11.2 billion shillings, which is shared among 61 associations. I think this topic was more about accountability and transparency. It doesn't probably matter how much if it is 0.00 something percent of the GDP that is being given to the artists, how transparent, how accountable is that. How did you come to choose the 61 associations? Was it by invitation? How did they join the National Culture Forum? I think those are the issues we should be discussing at this point. I think that's what Charles, if I'm not mistaken, that's what he was pushing for. Okay, you have modified what he was pushing for. Anyway, no namesake. I think the moderator is right on. Good. Yeah, as we all know, the right to belong is a fundamental human right and the process of selecting the associations. People were invited to come to join the National Culture Forum. How were they invited? What was the process like? In 2019, the entire culture and creative industry sector was mobilized. There was actually a huge meeting at Lugogo in those stadium. Many artists organizations from all the domains attended that meeting. That was the start of the actual, you know, vibrant National Culture Forum. There were two meetings organized by the Minister of Culture, Gender, Labor and Social Development, and most of the organizations turned up. We have since been working to, because for some of the disciplines in the arts, we had multiple organizations and we've been working to get them to work together. For instance, the musicians, they had 11 associations. The most famous one is UMA, the most known is the Uganda Musicians Association. So we've been working together with them to ensure that you know we have one collective voice. And the same for the DJs, the same for all the other associations that we've had. So the 61 that we currently, that are currently members of the association, it was an open process. And up to now we still receive new associations. We receive associations for people that say for us, we play our music in the hotel lobbies. So we have an association of our own. We still talk to them, so it's still an open invitation. Now in terms of accountability. I agree, Charles, my name's sick about, actually, from the stimulus fund, the theater received about 2.1 billion from government. And it is our duty. And that's why we need to be organized there. Because as artists, if we are not organized, we cannot hold anyone accountable. I cannot go there just by terms and say, what is the accountability for the 2.1 billion. But if we went there as National Culture Forum and say, where is the accountability for 2.1 billion, they will respond. And because even we can escalate these issues to the different agencies responsible for accountability, that general, that committee of parliament that is responsible for accountability. So we can only do that if we are working in unison. But as individuals, it is a hard paper. Thank you. Okay, thank you. We are saying have some just few minutes. I think I will still go back to Charles, but I'm busy. Charles, I think one of the other issues that came out was if artists are funded by the government, how do you ensure that they are not compromised on what kind of art they produce? Thank you very much. That has been an issue actually that has come out as we engage government and talk to the artists. Some artists are very wary of the fact that probably government will compromise them. One of the things that we've been pushing for, because there are things that government must do. One of them is a good policy environment in terms of laws and policies. Those ones we have to negotiate with government and it is government give those. That's an area of finding, you know, finding policy and laws. Number two, the culture infrastructure, the theaters, the cinemas, the public libraries, the art markets, the galleries and so on. I know that one of the things that I had about why we actually still have one national theater funded from public funds is that at some point the artists were very wary of government funding. Theater development. The extent that they said, okay, government, don't fund us. We'll raise our own money so that we can fund our facilities. That's false. That's false namesake, but proceed. That's what I heard. That's not the truth. That's what, it is an untruth. You and I used to be in the trenches facing those issues. I'm reporting what I heard. I'm very amazed to hear you sing a different song, but proceed. Yes. And what I know is the money collected by the theater is not enough to invest in new facilities across the country. It's only government through the different processes, you know, government directly investing in infrastructure development, or using the different things, you know, public, private partnerships and so on, that we can be able to spread coverage infrastructure across the country. Otherwise, for as long as we keep government away from fulfilling these obligations, we'll continue to have shortages in infrastructure will continue to have challenges in policy and laws. Now, in terms of finding the actual production of artistic works. I know for a fact that I really appreciate my brother, but also Elizabeth, my sister, that those funds from foreigners that we talk about most of them are coming from government. The British Council is a government. The French Alliance of France is partly government. And I know that he currently arranged for and says finding the National Theater to improve his capacity. And so on. So if, if we can accept money from foreign governments, why can't we accept money from our own government, but maybe. Yes, I don't think there is a problem with that. I think I still go back to the issue of accountability. Yes. Yeah, so if the money is coming from government. So government, it is, it is us because this is taxpayers money. So, when you say government, it is really the taxpayers money. It is the ordinary person who funds did they ask through the British Council and through Alliance France and through the Goten Institute and those other, all those other foreign bodies. And I think what we are pushing for especially what came up from this topic was how accountable. And to who is it to the, to the government. Is it to the artists. Is it to who, and how transparent are we. And if there is the National Cultural Forum, how accessible is it for all the other artists. I think that's what we're asking. Do the artists aware of this existence. Can they come and join. Can they have a piece of the National Cake as you call it. I think those are the issues we want to be focusing on more. Yeah, true. The man is that came out and the man is that came out. Where have they gone and what have they done since they came out. If you check our Twitter handle and see our Facebook or even our website, you'll be able to know who received the money and how much they didn't receive. Because what we did as National Culture Forum was actually not to give this money and the shadow of some sort because that would raise doubts. But we had dummy checks and representatives of associations came to save this money. Photographs were taken and posted on our various channels so that the public knows that actually taxpayers money has so much has gone to Omar. So much has gone to the theater association. So much has gone to this entity. And that was our way of ensuring that you know there's openness and accountability, but also in terms of accountability. I think concerning public funds, there is a system for accounting for such money. And I know that recently, for instance in the National Culture Forum, the office of the auditor general auditors came from there to look at how we spent the money. And there's a report that affected. So if we trust public agencies that do follow up on accountability, that is another level of accountability. We also encourage the members in the different associations, because if an association has been given 60 million, the members should hold that association accountable. We want the members to know what demand has been used for, how it has been spent, whether it was proper authorized and so on. So I think, in my view, we need to build this capacity for the members to demand, but also for the members to support their different associations in order for them to be accounted. Thank you, Charles. I do want to bring in Elizabeth as we are about to wind up. Elizabeth, I was wondering if you had a contribution to that since you also run an ad fund. The submission to Charles of the National Culture Fund is that it should never get to a point where the members are demanding. It is your obligation to them, you owe it to them to be accountable to them. They should never demand for it presented, because as part of your building trust. One of the pillars that stand out from accountability is trust. And trust defines our growth and it defines who can then entrust us with their talent, with more funds and with their respect. So it shouldn't be demanded, it should be presented, there should be processes that invite the organization to present their accountabilities to the members. As a national fund, the members are your audience. So there should be a process that gives you a platform to present this quarterly or biannually. You can agree on how that is structured. Of course right now, it sort of became sensitive because the money was seemingly large sums and then it doesn't help that it came before. There was a process that showed what it was going to do and to who it was going. But moving forward, there should be that system and that process that precedes those structures in your organization. As the fund, we've tried to do that. Like I said, we do not have single control centers. We have the artists who give their opinions and suggestions. Very often we have an advisory committee with an executive board and we are accountable to the organizations that give us the funds. So on all those power centers, we have moments of presenting our budgets, our financial accountabilities and our different reports monthly that show what exactly we are doing and who we are working with. And the artists themselves have channels where they can actually affirm that they have received these funds and they also present their accountability to the program because these funds are not all funds.  So it is very key to the growth of that area. Okay, one question, Elizabeth, before you leave, your choice will come in. So as a base, you run the Cognitive Arts Fund. So if there is an artist out there in the audience listening, how can they access the fund? Are you accessible enough? Are you open enough? How would they go about accessing that fund? So one thing that we set out to do was recognize the broad spectrum of the arts. So the art fund funds the arts in its entirety. So we find all the arts. At the moment, we are focusing on the regions of Kampala, Gul and Karamoja and it is purely because of the amount of funds that are available, but also because of what the research showed and the gaps that there were within the three regions that were identified. So the art fund is accessible to all artists. We have one Grand Psycho Aya, which is now coming to an end. The next call will be out in January. So they can apply. We have our application forms available at different arts centers in the different places, both in Kampala, you have them in all the major galleries. You have them at the National Theater. All the participating arts centers always have that information. And it's also available on the website of Koniesha Art Fund.  So we are passionate about trying to attempting to level it. You know, it's not, it's not that easy to do, but we are attempting to level the territory ground for both female and male artists. So we are very passionate about inclusion of female artists and persons with disabilities, the artists who are differently abled, but with physical disabilities, who are referred to as persons with disabilities. We refer to them as differently abled artists are invited to participate passionately. I think we are losing Elizabeth. Elizabeth can hear us. She's frozen. She's frozen. Charles, you had something to say as I think that can act as you are closing remarks as you are coming to the end of the discussion. Hopefully we'll get Elizabeth back. I hope that she does not find me presenting on any things I would be interrupted. So, did you just, did you allow me to submit? Yes, I did. That's fine. I just want to say that I don't want this discussion to be about one, one thing. I'm much more interested in the, in the, in the two way journey, the responsibility of the networks and cultural organizations in terms especially of grooming and mentoring artists and also the responsibility of the artist. The responsibility of the organizations of being accountable to the organizations themselves, but also be to the public by virtue of the production of cultural works so that we can sustain ourselves going forward. Now, in part, now that my friend is here, let me tell him a lot of us cried. And we saw that here and the, and which people as he had been, you know, screened to the other side then some said, oh, maybe it's good for us because they were our pillars in terms of demanding for accountability. We were our pillars. We knew them as men who cannot be shaken, who cannot be, you know, frightened, and who cannot be compromised. We still hope they are and we hope that they're on the other side and still bear the spirit that they had in the struggle to have government look at us as the funding as a right, not the funding as a behave yourself sing the song we want to hear, and then we might give you some money that that that is some of us find that add to to deal with. And I think at a higher level, this is the question of leadership. All these organizations that have been named. I think the pro the challenge for some of us is that the constitutions of these organizations are unclear. They're unclear. They're hidden. So if we don't know, for example, how long leaders may stay. When I was growing up, we had an ITI president who was here for more than 10 years. Now really, constitutions, I think should kind of also limit that power thing. That is why everybody in Uganda now is driving to be a president. Now I'm not saying president of Uganda president of some arts organization. That's the new thing every artist is trying to be president of this president of that president of that, because they'll be there for an incredibly long time. So what we need is a shifting leaderships, because momentum always changes are new ideas must come in, whether we like it or not. Okay, thank you very much, Charles. I'm going to invite Charles, but I'm busy. Charles, are you there? Yes, I am. So in your concluding remarks, we got a question that came from the audience, which I think you can also attempt to respond to, as you conclude. And the question was about the arts organizations that are supported under the National Culture Forum, who are they accountable to? Thank you very much. That's a very good question from the public. That's where I'll begin. All our associations, organizations are first and foremost accountable to their members. Are they all membership organizations? Yes, they are. They are all membership organizations. They are not private limited by share companies. Yeah, so the first and foremost accountable to their membership and the membership have to keep those organizations, the leaders in check. They have to understand the constitutions or articles and memorandum of association to be able to assert their rights. Apart from them being accountable to their membership, depending on where the money is coming from, for instance, if the National Culture Forum has extended money to them, then they have to be accountable to the National Culture Forum and we expect them to account for money that is extended to them. And because the more transparent that they are and the more accountable is what makes us as National Culture Forum more accountable and open. So we always push them to ensure that they provide this accountability just as much as our funders currently the government pushes us to be accountable. My remarks, my final thing is a good thing that the government of Uganda is beginning to recognize the fact that the arts are entitled to funding as much as the other sectors of the economy. And it's important that all of us as creatives, all of us as people that practice in this sector support this move. We may have our questions, maybe questions and so on, but it's important that government fulfills their command. No character infrastructure, good policy and laws so that all of us can work better. Thank you. Okay, thank you very much. Our panelists for this afternoon's discussion, I think we've come to the end of this exciting and sort of provoking topic. I want to thank Tabiri Arts, Deborah Asimou for having brought us together to discuss this very pertinent issues which concern the art sector in Uganda. And I want to hand back over to you for closing remarks. Deborah, I think you're with us. Yes, I am. I'm not sure if you can hear me. We can hear you, yes. Okay, okay, great. Thank you so much, Kariti, for shepherding this discussion. And thank you very much to Dr. Charles Mulekwa, to Elizabeth Mbawazi, and Mr. Charles Bartambouze for your insightful thoughts, provoking questions and guidance. How we need to think about what we need to do in terms of thinking about how we need to support artists and how our relationship with artists as such organizations can be mutually beneficial. I was very excited, especially to hear Elizabeth talk about how you're very intentional as co-orniture arts fund about involving women. This has been a passionate of Tabiri Arts Foundation as well, knowing how talented our women are in the arts, but how they lack visibility. So for me that has been very, very key and crucial in this discussion. And I hope we had more time to continue this discussion and in terms of thinking ahead. I hope that we can organize something when we are able to meet physically to continue these kinds of conversations, because they really enlightened. So much I did not know about cultural fund and program that I'm learning right now. So I hope that moving forward you can get an opportunity to organize something bigger, invite a wider audience, so that we can talk about this question again, but also additional issues that might come up. So thank you so much. And I wish you a wonderful afternoon. We are now going to jump into our performance. This is our last day and we look forward hopefully to hosting you in person in 2020. Thank you and have a wonderful afternoon everyone. Thank you. Are we free to leave?