Are you freaking kidding me in the middle of finals we welcome the broadcast I'm David Feldman David Feldman show calm Please follow me on Twitter friend me on Facebook. Please go to David Feldman show calm to do all your Amazon shopping We have a very special guest Today Frank Conniff is with us. You are incredibly well. You're an incredibly special guest And you can hear Frank Conniff on Sirius XM on the John Fugelsang show every day every day on the Channel 121 Sirius XM insight insight. Yes, which is not inspired the inspire is the magazine for al-Qaeda, right? We but we try to incorporate as much of their philosophy as we can into our broadcast and joining us is a man who was my muse from 2010 till about 2012 Two set 2013 he is headlining Carolines this weekend in New York City You know him from pep talks and puddin, which is the funniest thing on YouTube Please welcome mr. Eddie Pepito. Oh, thank you Thank you everybody. It's really great to be here It's good to be here. It's so great to be in New York. I can't believe it and you have a studio audience We're here on Avenue B. Do you get do you say where you are? Sure? Oh, it's great right across from Tompkins Square Park where there was a revolt Many years ago. Do you remember the Tompkins Square Park riots? The police? Yes Oh, yeah, the police they covered their badges remember remember now that I thought it was because they didn't like the pretzel place being put there You know, we start slow, but we build We build like a pretzel place Joe Who cares? It's early in the podcast people to get unsettling and they're not expecting anything They're not expecting much at this point. I know and they got very little as they did You flew in like we haven't missed a beat. Oh, I've never had my more of my jokes deconstructed And he that's why when we co-hosted the fake gallery in LA I couldn't do anything for my act because he'd be like That used to get a much bigger laugh When did you first see Eddie Pepito, when did you first meet him? Oh, I don't know I think in LA just at a club or something Yeah, it might have been the fake which brought a lot of us together the fake which is no longer there run by Paul cuz left you turned out to be that is a great failure All just turned out to be a failure and had a leave L. A. Hey, I know the disgrace like like most everybody else That was our sanctuary was an art gallery Yeah, that with great art that he pretty much made and then we would do comedy at night And we used to do our live shows Eddie and I used to co-host the fake show and we did it from the back of the Room with cameras facing us and then TV screens on the stage Mm-hmm, and but what was great is that they were shitty black and white TV?  I don't think very funny man. You should you should you know Adam? I don't know. He's a great to me. He really is In fact, is Jamie still running the improv? Yes. He's gonna be in LA.  Yeah, Jamie. Yeah flon flon flon. Yeah, and he's lasted a long time at the improv He's mr. Improv that they've opened up a space called the improv lab, which is kind of a more Intimate version. It's like the front of the improv, and it's really kind of cool. It's kind of a workshop environment if you remember Meyer Holt who did great space work in in East Berlin It has that kind of flavor to it. I her halted a great space working It's right. I was just reaching but No Grotowski and Peter Brooks. Do you remember them Peter Brooks directed Shakespeare?  I Don't want to get into Shakespeare. That's pretentious. I'm just mentioning Grotowski and Meyer Holt and you have to We should point out that Eddie is performing tonight in Richard Foreman's ontological theater I'm used to coming into New York and just doing a bunch of Japanese.  Yeah, we'll get to that in a second Live shows at the fake gallery with Jim Merrill who we're having on next week is Jim He's not in town, but the producer of this show Alex Brazil love Alex I have a lot of fanboys here for you and Frank.  Yes, I don't know us on all of you not every Team of kids and girls. I'm sorry not every comedian could draw six people to come watch By the way, this will be about the size of the Carolines house So this is good practice for me And I'm almost not kidding No, Alex. Alex Brazil has the only bringer apartment And Boom kind of there's the first strike and it's always deadly. It's always deadly. It's what kills the shark the first strike So we used to do well with the reason we're having Jim Merrill on the show is because I have a very liberal Podcasts and radio show you do but I've known Jim Merrill since 1983 And have you yes and Jim knows my condolences Jim knows exactly who I am and what a fraud when when I tweet out Barry left knee jerk Anti-trump things. Yeah, Jim calls. Does he calls you want it?  Yes. Yeah, he gives himself a big pass, right? So we had in 2010 you and I and not Frank Frank came in on the radio show, right, but what we still a podcast Started off with sketches and it evolved into a sitcom Were you so insane? It was insane You were my sidekick and Jim Merrill was the band leader Yeah, and we lived together in a town where everybody had podcasts This was 2010 and all the show was ahead of its time. It really was we had Patton Marin everybody who's big now did the show that's right and people who will not talk to us any No, literally, they will not like hey mark like when I call Maram early like what what what he goes like this what And then I don't want to talk to remember we used to For a while at the fake we co-hosted an open mic There and remember Whitney used Whitney Cummings used to come to that She surprised everybody I mean I used to watch her do stand up and hate it and now I get to hate her television show Which one that are making millions of dollars is any one of them. Yeah, I She once Saw me at the laugh factory and walked up to me and said hey hot shot and my knees buckled and I thought wow Now I get it like I totally get why she's successful. Well, she's super confident.  We like Tulson remember J. Clyde Tulson. J. Edgar Hoover That's a name. I thought Roy Coney. We're gonna say but a client who tell everybody Tulson was What Roy Cone was to Joe McCarthy Clive Tulson was to right-hand man like his his bottom Basically, is that right? Yeah, Clyde Tulson. I'm gonna name my next one. He lived He lived with they lived together, right?  I don't know if they were The J stood for screaming homosexual That's what the J and J Edgar Hoover stood for and and then you were our band leader and you lived in the house with us Yeah, he had all these adventures. I was abused. I remember Michael fell in love with you. Did he yeah, yeah I love Robert Smigel and yeah, the rest. Well, that's cool the rest. It was great It was really an amazing podcast and I think I think That we should erect one of those episodes and do a reading somewhere here in New York when I'm in town and Earl's in town You know and and you could be part of it because we're not gonna be able to get married or Pat No, no, no, no, no Robin. I remember what was his name came and one of the pages all over the place of Garland Was it Garland?  Oh, okay. Well, he's my buddy He played your brother.   He played your brother. Yeah, he had just got you remember all this He just gotten back from a USO show. How do you remember this and we had Carlos house Rocky playing Maury Amsterdam and the two of them were heroin dealers that that that was like No, and so was I remember Garland and Cal college being there But I remember the plots was Garland Distainful of the script because it didn't live up to the high standards of daddy daycare Now I have to play my cards very carefully here because I may be in a garland thing coming up So I just want to say this to the people who are listening.  No, really these people if they take it personally that right, right? No, and we love Jeff Garland I do I do so you have been very busy besides Playing the clubs and becoming and Frank you talk about how great a stand-up comic You know look on his face was like really in private. We've talked There's no doubt about it, right? He's one of the few guys because I'm so narcissistic and only think about myself But he's one of the few guys I would actually go to see him in the club without me Having to be in the show and have my moment of everybody Well, thank you throw that aside to watch Eddie Pepito. Thank you guys. Thank you I remember one of my sons was in college and we you were in one of your sons. Yes, that's only in one Well, we did yeah and we went to see you and He Willie. Yeah. Yeah, we don't talk about him Anyway, and I got a whole lecture back on the ride home from Willie on what yeah, don't mention him by name. Oh, right, okay What I'm child X By just how much of a better comic you are than I am to the point where it got to that like I thought Good I think it's a lack of love he received from you the other thing then I'll stop talking about the sitcom But the one thing you used to do is Rosenfeld or Rosenfield who cares. Yes He would you know, we write the script. He did the heavy lifting. Oh, yeah, he was all right He really did the heavy lifting. Does he write for door now? I don't know what he's doing We're not talking anymore. He's mad at me He doesn't write for door anymore. No, okay. We should probably talk about this off the air So yeah, we would hand you is he mad at you now. Yeah, he's mad at me He would People get mad People don't that's why I'm laughing for some reason people have a problem with being used exploited Advantage of and taken for granted. That's it three years of the podcast and nothing nothing that was So we would hand you mm-hmm a 50 page script Yeah, and I'd introduce you and you would cold read. Yeah, but you are the greatest cold reader You really are. Yeah, but that's also why I think I don't remember The podcast I mean the plots because I would just be so intent on getting the lines, right that I Couldn't take in the whole picture. So yeah One of the first I'll stop talking about the sitcom, but one of the first things we did with Margaret show the way I wasn't on that sitcom. I know I wasn't there for that pilot season. Yes But one episode we did was we all went we took Margaret show to Iraq For some reason you wanted a hammer from one of Uday and Kusey's rape rooms And Margaret was gonna get it for you and you literally turned to me It was like one of our first episodes of there's a yeah packed audience He was yeah, so what happens next like everybody else do the script fight and you were just doing this amazing cold read How's your acting career? I would assume you're just in doing really well in Hollywood right now You would assume wrong. I would assume everybody wants to be in business with you. Oh really? That's what my manager says to But it's hard. It's hard. I recently auditioned for a Cameron Crow thing. He's got something on.  Yeah. Yeah, so it was a rock critic who had his famous who had it.  I still call them cartoons.  Maybe you heard of that. Yes Oh And so I'll there's some jokes that maybe will omit some jokes we use no no no You can do no do do them. No what there were a couple of I haven't worked on that for a while Huh, there were a couple of Eugene Merman and oh, yeah. Oh, I like taking shots at him too We didn't even know who Eugene Merman was in the area that we gotta be careful. We used to go after Mike for bigly We had no idea who these guys And now they're like for bigly and particularly I did a show with him Not long ago. You see be very nice guy.  Well, I think that's a good basis to you know Really not like somebody So one of the things we did is we asked our listeners to write in questions. I like this I usually don't do this and it was not to leave you at Frank Participate, but they're questions for Eddie because not that I take you for granted but But but we don't get Eddie in New York that right so we have some questions, okay, if I answer so you but yes But as Eddie But this is a question and then you can respond because you may not agree with Eddie We are yeah, we've come to a logger Okay, Jennifer Bronson writes in Jennifer Bronson. Yeah, you were recently at a Trump rally in Muscatine, Michigan a Man in a turbine was heckling Donald Trump Report surface that you were there and sucker punched an Asian woman Why?  I don't see what the big deal is one of the best and most reasonable explanations of sucker punching The punch of the coward yes, yeah, like come it like they don't see it coming And then you and then and then if you watch people suck about like they have surfaced now like that horrible Video that I saw of that guy Sucker punching a guy at the Trump rally coming up to steps I watched that last night, which is awful like like I shouldn't watch it like that at 3 a.m. Because I'm trying to get to sleep I'm trying to unwind from shows and then I watched these videos and I just think oh my god This violence is so terrible.  Did you see the clip today of Trump when the Secret Service men came up on stage? Well, he thought he hurt was there a loud? He's hearing loud noises. There was a for a moment There was a look on Trump's face of sheer terror Yeah, and that at that moment I think maybe he might drop out of the race because if it starts to get scary to him like he oh You know he would he would he would leave in a sec Well, what happened it wasn't I think someone jumped over a fence You know that was surrounding the about like a bicycle fence and threw something at the stage and someone drew something at this stage Yeah, and that's happened to all of us, but Tonight I got a couple of shows and the Secret Service got up and surrounded him and yeah before they came up I saw it on yeah someone post of it There's just a look like he like looks like he's about to hit the ground for a minute like he's really you can tell Trump Is really really scared. Yeah, in other words, it's a really beautiful thing to watch Now why why are you at Trump rallies and why are you? Supporting him Eddie because your politics.  Where else are you gonna get that?   That's like just that's like that's like going and just watching the contents of a briefcase Mm-hmm. Do you understand like Trump is comfortable in his own orange skin as opposed to Is that spray tan? It's a spray tan. Yes, really. Mm-hmm.  I think it looks great And you've been writing for him right and yes, madam you and your friends with Melania With Melania, didn't you is that the name of his is the new first lady? Oh, really?  You don't say woman on a ship, right? Ferry you're from Staten Island. I don't want to brag And this I'm from Brooklyn and we move to Staten Island I like to I like to say that because Brooklyn still carries Some kind of credibility street credibility whereas when you move to Staten Island, you kind of lose all street credibility Why? There's nothing there. There's nothing there, but hatred People waxing their cars, you know people waxing their cars. Nobody knows who Dostoevsky is Because he lives in Brooklyn He lives in Greenpoint. Yes. So this is a question that comes to us from one of our listeners Maureen Greenberg Maureen Greenberg. These are great names.  Yes Eddie Eddie Pepettone you are from Staten Island and you used to sand floors Is it true very true? Is it true that you would break into people's homes in Staten Islands and sand their floors against their will? What would compel a man to do something like that? Well, I love to make well, I love power I love power and You know what I also love and it's very similar to the sucker punch is The element of surprise because when you break into someone's home when you break into someone's home They usually think either a he's gonna sexually Assault me and to me. That's very predictable and to he's gonna Rob me.    Yeah, and I was putting a chokehold many times Which is why I don't know why they're complaining about these chokeholds. Yeah, he would get arrested and yet he'd get great reviews on yelp That's right, I managed to I managed to combine incarceration with five stars on yelp Now, how were you in prison? How was I in prison? Yeah, are you funny? I was extremely nervous And did you ever see Shawshank? Yeah, do you remember the guy who worked in the library who couldn't take the real more James Whitmore James Whitmore, but what was his name? He had some kind of cool nickname. Anyway, we'll think about that in the five four five years Well, that'll come to us, but I'm that guy. I was that guy in prison like would you would you like a book, sir? This one's on the origin of birds, right?   Thank you for that by the way But then you crawled back into the prison.   Who was the audition here?  I'm sorry Mr. Conn if you do fit the bill, but still we'd like to keep you in that mode Are there any parts that you can brag about anything coming up that we Should know about I'm the regular in an adult swim show called your pretty face. Oh with Craig Rowan Yeah, and I just filmed the second season of An episode of the second season of love on Netflix. Oh, they would Paul Rust I filmed it on Wednesday before it came to New York that show. I haven't seen it But Dave Dave Gruber Allen is in that show. Oh Dave. Yeah, I worked with him last year Steve Banos Yeah, friends of two friends of mine. Yeah. Yeah, there's otherwise. I love Groober use of that and I'm like, oh, yeah This is about people I have no interest in whatsoever, but now that I know that I do that with every show.  It's okay.  I've learned as I've gotten older.  What do you do? Oh God, I I don't know.  It just it you feel this momentum of Like, oh my god, I'm gonna be angry at everything.    Oh, you got to live in gratitude. I was like save it save it with a license plate joke And I learned that in prison because we may we made a lot of license plate and There was an opportunity for me to use it Do you meditate?  I was taught by Laura house who who's like the the guru to comedians in LA I learned transcendental meditation.    That's not a cool. Those are two. Those are two words.  I took a class in TM in the Trump University, right all the way Trump University. Yeah, and and they put me under a spell and then I gave it a great rating I filled out the form. Do you meditate? We don't need to know how miserable I am Hey, Eddie This comes from I'll make that for a note. This comes from Clifford andriosi. He writes Clifford Clifford, you know Clifford. Oh, okay Seems like the Mrs. Miller of this show. I Mrs. Miller tell everybody who Mrs. Miller is okay as long as we don't go on a tangent Mrs. Miller was a woman who was always in the audience of the Merv Griffin show the tonight show any Carol Burnett, I think any show in New York or the ads, you know Oh in New York and like on the Merv Griffin show like she became a running joke because she was always this like very kind of Stoic older woman and then so she became kind of a novel famous in a novelty kind of way She actually put out an album of Mrs. Miller sings folk tunes, right? She moved to the south.  I'm putting out an album. I'm going to the south I'm gonna I'm gonna do the whatever that circuit is down there and and Tell us who Monty Rock the third was I'm kidding. Hi kid like he was another guy was on a lot of oh you talk shows in You being serious you know Monty Rock the third he actually had song like disco something was a hairdresser, right? It was a hairdresser. He was like just like a character, you know, okay You don't know Monty Rock the third is okay. Thank God because okay, that separates me from you, too Clifford Andrewsie you have to start the show over because we've lost everybody St. Patrick's day is around the corner. Mmm. Eddie.  Is that true that Puerto Ricans are part Jewish and part Sicilian? Yes, okay Absolutely, if you talk to any Puerto Rican. Yes, they will tell you that their ancestors Are from Sicily and in the case of my mother Russia Mm-hmm. Yeah, so most are Russian Jews Sicilians Puerto Ricans and nobody knows that they they slap a label on it Boom, they're done right so why do you why do you Puerto Ricans speak Spanish? Look, I don't have the answers to everything They're hard workers. They wanted to distance themselves from their head You know how people get ashamed? Yeah of their heritage like I get a little ashamed of being from Staten Island because I know You know a lot of it is very brutal. It's like the Hobbes saying Staten Island life is short and brutish What I don't understand is you go out of your way to identify yourself as part Sicilian and part Jewish But not Porter. Wouldn't it be simpler?    Have you Neffian is ethnic humor dangerous to you. I think it is I think it is but people would say Eddie or Frank All comedy like there are no rules. You should be able to talk.     Is he already? I'm trace beat trace trace bean on territory in the last within the last minute someone Wrote an outraged article on salon I hate all those yeah Precious little well, we we tried to our our mistake was we tried to make it in the comedy world At the time when comedy isn't as popular with some people as comedy umbridge Which is hugely popular these days on places like salon or else explain that yeah explain that well just to fly Well, here's here's salon is a good example that we have a personal connection connection to because you and I and Judy Gold and maryl marco and harry at mantel Several years ago were hired at a very meager fee, but a fee nonetheless to provide videos for salon dot com Oh, really comedy videos little one minute whatever we thought was funny and um We did that for like a couple of months uh if that One videos like well here's an umbrella and she's talking into the computer, you know and um But then salon said you know what we don't want to be about we don't want to have comedy on this site We want to have comedy umbridge on this site And so then salon literally became famous as the place where people wrote Outraged articles about what pat nozz waltz said or about him so and so doing a rape joke or you know And that that ended up getting them more clicks as far as they were concerned an actual comedy And do people have a right to be offended by say daniel tosh? Yeah, everybody has a right to have whatever your opinion is and and daniel tosh Has the right to do whatever joke he wants and but you just have to accept Whatever the consequences is of of what you say and if if people Object to it then that's that's fine for them, you know, but then don't say that nobody Everyone should stop being uptight and because i'm offended by things, you know, and I say things that offend people It's just the way it goes is trump a backlash to everybody being overly sensitive because I think reagan was no that's that's a complete Bullshit and and him and other people in me have tried to Put that forward that our society has become so politically correct The trump is a backlash to that no trump is a racist who appeals to racist and that's why he's However, however one thing I want to one thing I want to add one thing.  I have a question. I have a question. By the way, it's not racist though If you if you have an outlet for that and you're in bernie sanders Yeah, I agree. I agree people like that who are not that's who don't like racial demagoguery Are going to bernie sand is the people Who have yeah, whatever those legitimate concerns are but still they they can hear What what donald trump is saying and and I agree I agree. They're they they tend to be not college educated.  Yeah, the correct choice is sanders for that rage. I think that's obvious But there yeah, they yeah, that that is true and that's scary to me that hate But I think that's what's not talked about with with trump is why aren't the liberals talking about all The people the working class lower middle class people middle class that they have fucked Well, sanders is talking about that Right. Yeah, I think yeah, he is but he's running as a democrat. He was an independent Uh, this is sanders first time running as a democrat in a long time. He was a well Yeah, he's been a socialist or an independent his whole career. Who do you hate more eddie? I'm being serious You're frank. No, who do you hate? That's a very hard call Who do you hate more?  Yeah socialist. You're socialist. Who do you hate more? Liberals are conservatives On a visceral level.  I think they're equally vile. I mean, I mean if you had one punch to throw, who would it be at?     Well, yeah, he's doing these commercials for Nespresso with danie. Oh, that's right. And these are big liberals now. Now, maybe you can't have it Maybe you can't have it. I first of all. I like george cloney I used to You know, I I think but maybe he made a deal with nestly that they would no longer be selling The powdered breast milk No, he did not I I guarantee you he did not I guarantee you that he made some kind of deal for nestle Google it. I did. I thought so too. There is no way george cloney would endorse nestly because he's devoted his life to the Sudan there's no way he didn't work out some kind of deal where all in what is he done in the sudan good stuff He drew attention to there. He goes there. He testifies at the un and congress about the plight of uh, can I I don't know something for any really old people that are listening right now old people Nestle's makes the Sell out Well, they tried they dried up all the african breasts. They got African women addicted to nestle's Powdered breast milk and then so I don't understand how he can do both you see and that's Those kind of liberals I guarantee you all right. Well, well you google it or your listeners There's no way right in because I googled it and he got pissed at people who called him a sellout He said hey, I want to earn a living once in a while.   I'm trying to make you know a living once in a while And he and he he was quoted as saying because he did he didn't blow up the budget on a couple of films He did like the descendants and like he can do better projects if he makes a shitload of money On but he did something really good for the universe He headbutted david o Russell He really did. Yeah, he's done some good things. So did you know that he headbutted? I do know that and I've never met either of them. So it means nothing to me that he headbutted. Yeah Let's talk about Yeah, now you see you you claim that these questions are really set up For me to be funny And I see I mean, you know, and I really am offended by that. Well, it got a big response from our studio I know but you know what I can all which which is probably you know These are and my you know a signal of truth. That's I look to the audience's truth signals Okay, these are legitimate questions that have been asked on the internet And in no way are setups for me to come across as funny.  Ah, that's not a made-up name alexander fields writes eddie uriyankis fan I am what? Why does that crack you up? What were the odds that lu garig Who played for the american league with the initials a l Would be diagnosed with a ls. How do you explain the phenomenon of lu garig? Who played for the a l the american league would be This is definitely not just a ls. You're right. No, no, that's just a question From some guy some guy lives in holboken Who has a question? I mean, what isn't it ironic? Those are tremendous odds and this this is a great question and plus, um Lou a lot of people who know that uh, uh lu garig had a secretary named cancer And cancer had a secretary named garig So Yeah, the the uh, the tie ins to disease were written all over garig's personal life, but But uh, there are a couple of new diseases.  Well, this is an actual question How do you reconcile the fact eddie pep atone? Yeah You're yankees fan, correct? That is correct. They are I feel like I'm in front of the mccarthy hearings. That is correct I know I say i'm a socialist, but I root for a corporate Corporate entity And by the way, anyone had done that nesli's commercial in a second That's what all my friends say they're like if they would offer you that money you do it I'd be like no, but that's a different issue.  The celebrities doing it really suck. Yeah Would you do would you do a commercial? i'll explore for capital one.  Shilling for capital one He's been in the most the biggest grossing movies of all time like his box office supposedly is a record Now I get excited when I get a residual for bobsburgers I can't imagine.  You know who can All his ex-wife Is that true, but it's crazy these guys. I don't know Clooney doesn't have any x y. No, no i'm talking about samuel jackson. Didn't he just get divorced? No, no He just got married. I'm talking about samuel l jackson's ex-wives. Does he have ex-wives? I would assume Yeah, well, anyway, I love this gossip. I love celebrity, but you know what though It kind of raises a political issue in a way of the fact that all of the you know, it used to be that voiceover work commercials Were a way for there to be a middle class and show business for actors Uh to survive and and get by and pay them pay their rent But but now this in this day and age like Gigantic movie star like big stars like john ham and george collie. They do voiceovers Does ham do voiceovers too? Oh, yeah, john ham does a ton of voice. He's a nice guy and it's And and then people being a movie star if like if you had an oscar in the past You would never do a commercial you would never do a game show like something like that would be like for for like a Middle-class Beneath you in show business would do holly. Alec Baldwin is a good Example because that was kind of for me. I don't know if I was the only one who thought this was a turning point in show business was when they brought back the hollywood squares a few years ago and uh Whoopi goldberg and alec bald when we're on it and they got paid millions of dollars To be on it and that used to be a million years.  He's very passionate about the hollywood squares and the corruption No, that used to be a that used to be a vehicle for rose marie and marty And and and like mid, you know Yes people so that they could have a tv thing and then they could get live gigs off of it So it's like well. We in show business the middle class has also been squeezed out. Absolutely Absolutely like for example eddie pepitone big star bobs burgers. I would make eddie the center square in a second I'm saying what you're doing on this podcast. He's taking work away from other Deserving low rung comics. Here's the question about the Yankees. They're notoriously conservative organization. They buy penance Right They they they they used to buy penance and now all the teams kind of tickets are overpriced Yeah, pinstripes synonymous with wall street How would you respond to people who say that inside of eddie pepitone? There's a one percenter screaming to get out And where do you keep this one percent? Well, it is true. How did you like the Yankees?  There was something about mickey Mantle I became a mickey male fan and I'll never forget in statin island Throwing up a rock and hitting it with a wiffleball bat and imagining.  I never knew There was that much drinking going on outside my house. You know why he was called whitey ford No, seriously. Was he pasty from drinking? Do you know why he was called whitey ford? Um, cocaine use? Yeah He drank so much. They he was Cloudy all the time and they called him whitey because is that true? Yes.  I didn't know that. Yeah. Yeah That was uh, why they nicknamed that other guy a wet brain maris Well, actually they should have called roger maris whitey because they were so upset Uh, weren't they upset with roger maris? He broke roots record and they were upset about that all the people who would vote for trump They were like, how dare because wasn't bay brood really bay brood's record wasn't bay brood secretly an african-american Seriously, wasn't that the rumor? No, I never heard that The rumor was that he and may west were really African-americans.  Yeah, I never never is that because I go by the color of the skin They look white as hell to me. I mean, I'm a stickler for that. Okay. If I'm a traditionalist You purport to be a rangers fan. I am I'm going to the rangers tomorrow Caroline's got me tickets to the rangers penguins. What would like to be a star? What are the perks? Is that one of them? You know that really that that you know and talking about the one percenter that lives inside me Um, like when a television show flies me first class.  So you don't have to walk through Yeah, it's kind of a walk of shame, right?  This is when you fart That's like great. I can't fart on command as much as well my my son can and uh, and my daughter Why didn't you ask me to fart? Well, good. Anyway, that's a whole other A couple of thousand dollars in therapy why my son but we don't want to talk about that But yes, my son would stink up the first class cabin good for him and coach unfortunately So you purport to be a rangers fan. Yeah, I am I'm hockey is my favorite sport And I think it's because I really get out my aggression With like you talking about my anger before and there's something very like baseball is such a Like and there's a fly ball to right field Oh and johnson is drifting under it.  Um, you know like that kind of thing and I leave Games feeling a little bit lighter and purged of some of most of those fight You know rj freed the comedy writer He's heard of him. Yeah, he's a forward. He was afforded harvard.  So they really hate one a lot of a bunch of the fights are like that Yeah, yeah, they really don't hurt but hockey's changed. They're they're they got rid of the goons So I don't know if you know that but the goons the goon hockey doesn't exist anymore What well that guy had that there was a documentary about that guy the enforcer who had all that brain damage and became a republican You saw that story that you're talking about mccain.  I love the canaries. Yeah, they're great That's we have a lot of listeners. There's so much and I but I'm not that's more peaceful than I was They're good people. Yeah, is it true that uh, you lost your virginity to ed jockemin in the back of a zamboni machine Who was ed jockemin? He's the gold tender. No, you know now when I was growing up ed jockemin is the goalie for the rangers And me and my dad has season tickets for a couple of years And and you know what the crowd would chant I'm kidding. I was a kid around 13 14 not to brag.  My name has never been chanted at a club yet, but I'm hoping no it has been a couple And why was ed jockemin famous? He was he was great. That's why he was a really good goalie. He was a goalie and what did he refuse to wear um I think it was thongs. Yes. No, I don't know. I don't wear the mask. He was the last guy to wear a mask Is that right? Yes. Well, that's insane. Wait, he didn't wear a mask. He did not wear a mask That's why he was famous. Right.  That is correct And is it now you work for Madison Square Garden? You got to drive in the early 80s Yes, how did you know that because I read that you took all your your sanding skills And you uh got a job. I was doing horrible jobs. That was awful job I this is a this is a question that and I want a serious answer to this Is it true that you once drove the zamboni machine from new york to san francisco? In support of ronald and nancy ragan's stance on aids Is that why first of all Hillary clinton at a backtrack This week. Yes her support of nancy ragan.  What were the rangers called? In the gay hockey league very quickly. What were the uh the rangers called the rump rangers. That is correct. Oh very good Very good. That was wasn't that worth it? That is the correct answer We should give points Is it true that your sister your older sister was such a big fan of edgyl bear? From the ranger roger bear roger bear. Yeah, uh roger. No edgyl bear's bruh was his brother who played for the Bruins Yeah, yeah your your sister was such a big fan of roger bear that she had all her teeth removed Is that true? These are just questions that well, you know Felatio wasn't as widespread As it was back then and she was a pioneer In that field this is going to come back to haunt me that long See you force me into these things. Uh, let's talk about monstern. It's funny how our uh, hockey conversation uh in the middle broke out into a lull I I went to a hockey game and I went to a fight and a hockey game broke out. That's the original Right, right. Uh, I never played hockey, but I often have pulled men's shirts off over their heads And to do what I don't want to go into let's let's talk about monstern. Oh, wow I love that company. I was saying earlier that there's an attention to detail at monsanto. That is beautiful and not Only done in some of the nicer restaurants here on the lorry side Oh the restaurant monsanto No, no, what are we talking about? Yeah, the restaurant monsanto is terrific. That's that's farm to table to prison To grave farm the table to prison to grave Ah, it's it's the new movement, you know, yeah, absolutely I bring this up because an old girlfriend of yours gave an interview of the national inquirer Uh, claiming that you gave her shall we say rosebud The nickname monsanto. Is that true? But That I gave what I wish I I can't even keep up with these her clitoris. You think they did the her monsanto What is that about? Why would you do that? And why would she come well? Have you never had any experience with a genetically modified clitoris? Have you not? genetically engineered genitalia genetically engineered genitalia Well, absolutely. I was part of an experiment at mit And it was another way I supplemented my income as a floor sander Was to Engage let's say with genetically modified Genitalia do you want to give your claim to fame? Oh Oh, what happened come talk into the microphone. You're here here. I don't mean to lord this over you But dan abraham is here and he's gonna This is a closeness to greatness. This is as close as talk to the micro credit Into the microphone into the microphone my uh my grandfather was an enter chronologist And he discovered with his partner a testicular deformity That now bears My my last name and it is the most that talk about seo You google my full name so of all This is why I have to do abraham because the the the medical listings for this testicular deformity Take up a good a good portion of the the first, you know So you share a surname with a Half of it. It's it's it's so so of all saffer syndrome is what it's called named. Could you take a look at something? Before I leave today I've done the strangest. Well, I don't that's that's impressive. Yeah for for my grandfather It's very impressive for me. It's very humiliating and I appreciate you uh bringing me on for the first time on your podcast Well, I just Legions of listeners We have testicular deformity royalty How could I not? No, I get a little check every month. You know Is it a residual? Yeah, it is. Well, that it's a it's a residual genital uh residual. It's a small residual For for small, uh, different casticles. Yeah. Wow. I don't mean to try to um top you but my grandfather also By the way, nerve griffin picked me up once in a bar saying I don't mean to top you Okay, that was worth the interruption Thank you for slamming him on that No, but it's my Alex is so happy right now. Uh, yeah Yeah, that for me too and I haven't been around him for years The moment is past That's what he Hang on for one second. We were talking about testicular deformity is being named. Forget it Why don't you know because what conif was going to do wasn't that good to begin with and then you delay it And now it's really going to be shitty. I just know what the shame is going to feel like when it comes out Well, but don't you want to be like me? No No, but that is impressive. Uh, yeah, that's really impressive. Yeah, testicular deformity Lineage in your in your in your family is a terrific terrific thing to be known for I I I don't think deform it. Are you okay with it? Too late now Like no, I mean you shouldn't feel bad because my my my father is only known for Screaming in the middle of the street covered in blood. So I mean I I would go with your With your lineage You know, that's what he's known for instead very popular. What happened Oh, just that's what he would do, you know, he would say nothing else is working Let me try this just cover himself in blood and scream in the street He became known for it and you know, it was a nice little living Your father took you to ranger games. Yeah, he did. I shouldn't I should is he coming to your show carolines No, no, he doesn't know him in new york. Really? Yeah I I I don't know one way to keep it a secret was to come on the show Yeah, I I when is the podcast coming out? What are you talking about podcast? What is this just we invited you over to talk that would be funny if this was not being recorded Like we find out you're completely insane.  I have about five minutes before I have to headline It makes me so nervous to do that. Who are you following? Who am I following? Yeah Comedically, yeah No, I like that carolines. Oh Who's going on before you? Uh tonight jimmy lee chase jimmy lee chase featuring for me, right? Okay. Yeah, really nice young kid Now you travel the road. Do you ever have opening acts who get under your skin? No, no, they never bother me. Never.   I'm opening for you.  Fuck Who are the watch my set and learn That's why I'm featuring Here's another question As we all know former secretary of labor robert reich was performing a medley of woody guthrie songs During a taping of carpool karaoke on the late late show Car oh carpool karaoke. That's what james cordon. Yes. Very delightful. Very delightful You were going you were caught you were caught on tape going 90 miles per hour in the opposite direction While carpool karaoke was going on with former secretary of labor robert reich Doing a medley of woody guthrie songs And you were going in the opposite. This is all was on cbs You were you were attempting to create a head on collision in the opposite direction, right at the very last minute, right? You stop. This is all on tape. I've seen it right, right, right, right. You got out of the car right looked up Saw billboard for neighbors, too You held a gun to your head Dropped your pants and screamed into james cordon's camera on the dash cam I'm masturbating to the image of zack effron Not seth rogan who is prominently featured on this billboard Standing next to his comily co-star rose burn who was delightful and bridesmaids Which by the way i've seen five times And i'm a huge huge fan of jud apatow as a producer not a director I thought the first season of girls was some of the best producing work Jud apatow has ever done. Did he do girls as a but i am specifically masturbating to zack effron My question eddie is why don't you like woody guthrie? It's amazing how these you know the newspapers get get it to the world like that. Well, it's caught on tape Oh, it's caught on tape.  I wish that woody guthrie Could have met james cordon because what a you know, you know that that is a tragedy when woody guthrie wrote a song with About donald trump's father. That's that's true. Tell us about that. Did he did he slam him? He lived in one of his buildings in queens true. Yes true This just came out of was he a slumlord? And yeah, he was a slumlord and he wrote about what a racist he was I'm not making it up. You can now. What are the odds that woody guthrie? Would be a big lou garrick's fan He was a And and what are the odds that woody guthrie would die from? He didn't die from lou garrick's disease though. Did he no he died from he died or disease? He's That's good. That's good. I think especially since singer outlived him No, but you know his son arlo guthrie has the same disease and he's still alive.  I don't know. I just know that it's one of uh chris christie's favorite films Oh, I I miss your chris christie job.  Huh? Like what was the the internet went nuts about christie standing behind trump?  Has he lost some weight though christie. He's lost. He's had some surgery He's out. I'm sure he's had the surgery two or three tons, but you can it doesn't show He had a he had his a dignity removed in a lap that surgery They when that when when he got weighed a few years ago, the doctor just said you weigh as much as battery park Sorry about that everybody. I didn't want to go out on that but I got You know why it's called battery park. Why just a bunch of dildos That was worse than mine How are we doing on time? Last question and then last question. Okay, dr. Ben Carson was your twins. You were were simi's twins with your Yeah, I don't like to talk about it. Tell me about your Uh, tell me about your twin sister and address claims that ben karson separated you from your twin sister And that you and she were attached at the genitalia Do you still keep in touch with your twin sister? And is she still a segment producer on the steve harvey show? Can I let frank answer that one? Be very happy to uh To answer that well anything involved with steve harvey. Yeah, I is good from our family. She um, uh Does work on the steve harvey show and uh, she read my packet And said yeah, I don't really think you're right for this and i'm is logo the gay network. Um, it is when I watch it Is logo the gay network? Yeah, I'll tell you what's gay a river runs through it Kidding, I don't even know why I said that. So if you just thought that was funny If you want to submit a writing sample to logo frank, uh, what do you have to give them instead of a pack? A package you have to give them. Yeah, I guess a package. I don't know they love packages a fudge packet Oh a fudge packet. Okay. Wow. Why are you doing this?  You still have it. You still have it. Okay All right, let's listen. Let me just say from the bottom.   It was but I did I did enjoy myself I'm glad you did because I gotta be honest with you I was hoping maybe I you know the mistake we made is this is right before your show at caroline So you're you know, you want some reserve energy. I do but this I you know I was one of your first fans and you were my muse disappointed in me.  I don't know what to say about any Frank help me out. How great is he?  Oh, thank you Thanks, Davey


MRO President of the Senate, Gotswil Apabio, has declared that recent protests witnessed in some states on the harsh economic situation in the country are sponsored. Apabio made the declaration in Tuesday plenary, after the presentation of a report of the Joint Committee on Banking, Finance and National Planning, Agriculture and Appropriation, headed by Senator Abdullah Iyachaya. While stressing the need to immediately address this issue of hunger in the country, Apabio revealed that in the last few months, state governments received 30 billion naira each to tackle the current hardship faced by citizens. We can see a lot of sponsored protests here and there, but those people are not aware. Most of those sponsored protests are not aware of the kind of efforts being made by the Senate to tackle the situation, together with the Joint Management Team of the federal government on Nigeria. And I must say that unverified report has it that each of the state governments in the last few months have received additional 30 billion from the federal and land revenue service, outside their normal allocations from the federal account, outside their normal allocations, to assist them in ameliorating the full situation. So we believe that every state government should utilize the funds so received towards ensuring that food is available. Menwari, in an extensive debate, Senator Adamu Alero, argued that some state governors, including some retired ones in the Senate, were beneficiaries of 18 billion naira as a shock absorber under the ways and means since 2015. Each state government in 2023 was given 18 billion naira at once, some of the governors benefited from that 18 billion naira are here. I'm sure the governor-in-law can confirm that. The Senate president thereafter maintained that only to the current economic situation it has become expedient to thoroughly examine the ways and means funds. About 30 trillion ways, I mean not what President Tiribu can bring. This Senate will not robustamp anything that we feel is not in the interest of Nigerians. And that is the reason why we are discussing. Am I right or wrong? Those who are in support of what the Senate president is saying, say, ah, ah, those they can say naira, the expenses that we don't have details put us in the indebtedness that we have today. And therefore has affected even the ability of government to provide essential needs and services for the public that we need to look into those things. Exclude the fact that we can say go and investigate what we pass. So we are open to investigation and there was a caveat at that time that we are going to investigate, the details must be provided so we are waiting. Any time the Senate feels that we should go to investigate that, we investigate that. So for one now to say, for what happened then was a collective responsibility and it was done in the interest of the nation and in line with our collaborative in the stance with the executive arm of government. So the National Assembly to find out what happened. Mr. President, Mr. colleagues, nobody in this chamber should suggest that we shouldn't look to anything that we fail is in the public interest. But let me say this very clearly, what Nigerians want today is food. What Nigerians wants today is food and security. This belongs to the medium term or long term. And that we need to take.


I don't have that kind of sympathy. I wish I did, Rev, that you had. Because I look at this as a drunk driver who injured himself in a wreck and killed the oncoming sober driver. Donald Trump has injured himself and injured and 200,000 people, other drivers, have died due to the coronavirus. So I don't have sympathy for Donald Trump. His response has been homicidal negligence. He also goes to a campaign event. Apparently he and certainly his staff and the chief of staff and others knowing that he has been exposed to somebody who's testing positive and apparently has COVID. This too gets to what certainly looks like back to this idea of homicidal negligence. One of the reasons why we are obviously so skeptical of the way that they've been describing the president's condition is because this is a White House wolf that has obviously consistently withheld information offered counterfactual false information. We are now seeing the results wolf of five years from the president's candidacy throughout his time in the White House of his falsehoods and his lies coming back to bite him.  Masha, what do you see happening in America right now with a country unable to know what to believe about the president's health? Well you know Brian, there have been a lot of comparisons to the Soviet Union in the last couple of days and I think they're not unwarranted. The particular period that I'm thinking about is something that I've written about a lot which were the days of Stalin's death watch. What we have now is a prima facie evidence of a person who became president by gas lighting the public, hiding his own failures, his lack of capacity and ability and now finds himself in Walter Reed Hospital.  Well my first thought was we didn't have to wait long into October before we got our October surprise. This morning the president is learning in the worst possible way you can't argue your way out of this pandemic. The president's positive test comes after months of a dangerous gamble, downplaying COVID-19, floating public health regulations and minimizing the dangers of the virus. Is this a moment of reckoning for the president? Recklessness, negligence, ignorance. The recklessness and the denialism and the anti-medicine position. So I don't have sympathy for Donald Trump. But it certainly is not that much of a surprise. This is not surprising. Not a surprise. I'm not surprised. Not surprising.


Good afternoon, everyone. I'm Andy Bonham, Senior Distinguished Engineer, Architect at Capital One. Today we're going to talk about open-source BPM and also do a comparison of some of the common BPM products. First a little bit about Capital One, we are a bank that's built like a tech company. For about a decade, we've been investing in becoming a tech company, bringing our engineering talent in-house and building our own software solutions. Our tech team is about 11,000 people and we're all in on the cloud. All of our capabilities are built on AWS. We also have a pretty advanced DevOps pipeline that automates a lot of the manual tasks that developers typically have to do and allows us to use a microservices architecture and allows our engineers to really focus on innovating and building new capabilities at the top of the tech stack. We're also big into open-source. In 2014 we made our first contribution as a company to open-source and a declaration that we're open-source first. Since then we've released about 40 open-source projects. One of the most popular ones is Hygeo, which is a DevOps dashboard that's used by a number of companies across the country. You can see a couple others listed there. We've also invested a lot of time over the years too in building the right culture and governance to have open-source and highly regulated banking industry. If you're interested to learn more about Capital One or looking for a new opportunity, definitely stop by our booth. We are hiring. There's also a link here to Capital One Tech. It's a good good site for a lot of blogs that are tech leaders right and you can check out Capital One careers for the openings and also follow us on Twitter. Alright so today what we're going to do is pretty much start from ground zero assuming that you don't the audience doesn't know anything about BPM. Introduce you to some of the key concepts and then gradually get more advanced and in the end the goal is for you to walk away today with a good understanding of what open-source BPM is and also some of the distinctions between some of the common products that are out there today. Real quick a show of hands who has used or is familiar with an open-source BPM product. Alright it's about half. Cool some of this might be repeat for some folks other folks might be might be a value so we'll start from from the beginning. So what is workflow? It's often a overloaded term. It can mean four or five different things depending on the context that it's used in. The way I try to think of it is it in the end it's really about individual or discrete steps that are happening in a business process and that can take the shape of three or four different forms where it could be human workflow where it's steps that you need a human to perform. You know investigate this case or route this application. It could be more orchestration based or system orchestration where maybe you have five APIs you need to call in a certain order and it's there really isn't any human interaction. Then it could be a combination of both or maybe it's system orchestration and then when you hit a certain condition then you have human workflow that that executes. So when you're talking about workflow it's good to understand the context in which the term is used because it often is used differently. So now we know what workflow is let's separate it into two different buckets simple workflow and complex workflow. Let's first start with the basics of you know what are some of the characteristics of simple workflow and at its core task management or a to-do list is one of the common characteristics that you'll see. Users need to know you know what are the tasks that they need to do and also maintain the state. What's in progress what's not started what's done and then notify either them or other other folks when certain phases are changed either through a text message or email and then normally simple workflow involves maybe only one team or division it's not multiple groups so it's kind of consolidated into a single group. Moving on to complex workflow often then you start and see interaction across multiple groups multiple divisions across a company and then the workflows start to get more complex you have multiple levels you have exception paths you have callbacks where things need a route back you can also then start and see forms of case management where it's more investigative or research based activities that aren't 100% predictable they may not follow one flow but they might follow two or three in an ad hoc or on on demand nature so that adds an element of complexity. You can also have integration with rules so if then logic where you may have policies that you need to execute it could be many rules based on on the use case but it could be integration with either decision tables or rules engines and then as we mentioned a little while ago system orchestration where you may need a in addition to doing human workflow also orchestrate API calls in a particular order. So what is a BPM product what problems do they solve? You know at its core BPM stands for business process management and you'll often hear the term you'll hear several terms you'll hear BPMS which is business process management system you may also hear I BPMS which is an intelligent BPMS management system and at the end really what these are is they provide a capability to model a process and also execute it. There tends to be a separate suite of products that might just focus on the modeling aspect but the BPM products focus on the modeling and also the execution they also take it a step further and provide integration capabilities with plugins and adapters and really what the problem in my mind that they address is when it's easier to build or code a business process in a visual model than in code that's when these really start to end up in their sweet spot is enabling visual solution and modeling of a use case or a problem and there's a there's a ton of open source products out there there's at least 15 or 20 you can see some of them in the word cloud there so today we'll focus on like three or four of them that are Apache based first before we get into the actual open source products let's talk a little bit about some of the common notation the industry standard notation that is affiliated with a lot of these one of the first ones is known as BPMM which stands for business process modeling notation and this was a spec created by the object modeling group and basically was very detailed spec that landed on agreement on certain icons and activities of how diagrams are built so you can see here activities events gateways these all have very specific icons and standards that were created and what this did is it enabled a consistent way for modeling a process so now these BPMM diagrams can be portable where you can take them and use them across multiple systems that support the specification as long as the systems don't add their own proprietary modeling on top of it it also enables collaboration between business and tech folks where you may have a business process analyst that can model the process and then your your tech folks can take that and implement it in a BPMM or BPM product so it enables a lot of collaboration and standardization another notation that you'll hear of is decision modeling notation or DMN this one focuses on decisions and rules similar to BPMM it has a flow that's followed and then it gets to a point where a decision table like in the example is executed where if certain conditions are true then a result will be returned it is compatible with BPMM so they can be used together in a in a process and then moving on to the third notation again this one was by the object modeling group case management modeling notation that you see there in the middle this one focuses on cases again that investigative or research based dynamic activities that are not really as predictable as a flow and usually in the open-source BPM landscape the products will use one or more of these often it's all three or either at least two with BPMM and DMN and we'll talk a little bit about that in distinction between the products in terms of which ones they support in a little bit but now that we we understand what workflow is what BPMM is some of the standard notation what are some of the alternatives because like anything in tech you know one size does not fit all there may be some cases where a BPM product may be overkill some of the alternatives you can explore are state machines that may not be as detailed with the visual workflow AWS step functions is one they have a workflow studio that is a visual modeler but does not use the BPMM notation others are X-State IO which is a JSON based workflow and Netflix has a conductor project that can be used for orchestration so these are all their alternatives again if maybe you don't need all the capabilities of a BPMM product but need some of the orchestration and workflow capabilities so when do you use a BPMM product this was a chart that I put together to explain to folks and again it kind of goes back to the idea that when when you reach that point where to be able to build your process it's easier to manage it in a visual model that's usually a good sign that you want to use a BPMM product if it's overkill to do that then other alternatives may be a better fit and usually that ends up in two dimensions high integration and high complexity of the business process those are your sweet spots of where a BPMM product and its capabilities can really help solve your problem if you're low on the integration or low on complexity a BPMM product might be overkill and it's really up to you to evaluate your use case and to see if you need the capabilities that are provided and you can see in here the bullets they're sprinkled in basically from what we covered earlier concepts of simple workflow which are in that lower left quadrant and elements of the more complex workflow or in the outer the outer boxes but you really have to sit down for you know and ask what's the problem you're trying to solve and you know make sure you're selecting the right solution the other thing you need to be aware of is the monolith it's easy to build a monolith application in BPMM products some of the products themselves the way they're deployed are monolithic there's a number that have been moving towards more of a microservice-based cloud native architecture but this is one thing you want to you want to be aware of and really the idea is you want to break things into microservices build smaller pieces that are more module so that way you can scale those independently instead of having to scale the whole monolith so definitely something you want to keep in mind as you're you're making the decision what what to use and how to design it some of the scalability things you'd want to consider you know if you do have a process you can think about breaking it up into sub-processes and deploying those independently there's also a you have different options in terms of deploying some of the BPM engines one option is to use an end process or embedded mode where the engine itself actually runs under the JVM same JVM as your application or you could run the engine as a standalone deployment where it's running as its own service and your application and integrates with it through an API now both of those have their pros and cons the end process or embedded approach can have better performance because it's part of part of your application there's not any additional network calls being made but it does introduce coupling right it's tightly coupling your process engine to your application and it also makes scalability a little more challenging right you can't just scale the engine or the application since they're embedded typically have to scale them both the standalone deployment approach that approach provides an abstraction layer so it doesn't necessarily matter what technology the application is built in as long as it can call an API it can integrate with the standalone deployment you can also scale the standalone deployment separately since it is its own deployment but one downside is you do have additional network calls through the API so again those are pros and cons that you have to decide and make tradeoffs on depending on your your use case the other one that I often have folks think about is the third one around what things you should do in the BPM product versus what things you should do outside kind of gets excuse me kind of gets back to the monolith conversation throw everything in the kitchen sink inside a BPM product you want to be selective and build the things in the BPM product that the BPM product is good at like what are its strong points and that typically is workflow or orchestration I've seen teams kind of throw everything in there and then it leads to other problems later on so you want to be very declarative about what is in the BPM what you're going to build in the BPM product and what should stay outside because a lot of the BPM products have ability to integrate with external your interfaces or services which can help you integrate it if you do keep it externally all right so now we'll move on to the open source BPM part where we'll start and dive into some of the products I did a little bit of research just to flag some of the key milestones in the history of open source BPM there's a lot more to this there's you know at least 15 20 plus products I kind of kept it to you know for that spawned off of JBPM at some point and that's JBPM activity command up and also flowable but if you look at this it JBPM the first version came out in 2003 and wasn't until about 2010 when activity launched which was another open source product you'll notice that the first version of BPM in came out in 2004 followed by the second version in 2011 commanda forked off of activity back in 2013 and one interesting pattern you'll see is a lot of these products tend to fork off of others and they may reuse some parts of the architecture but completely do completely redo other parts then along you know the the other two notations CMMN and DMN we see came out in 2014 2015 and then the next open source products came out that forked off of active activity known as flowable in 2017 then there was a period of time where different products supported CMMN and others decided not to and then more recently in the past two years Kajito is a new refactor of the architecture with JBPM that's more geared towards making it cloud native and microservice-based and command also had one of their new releases this year so one of the things that that stays the same is that things are always changing in this landscape so you really have to kind of see what's out there at any point in time as you're evaluating different different products we're going to do a deeper dive now of four of the products and again these at one point in time we're all a patchy based and one interesting graph I went out there and pulled a Google trend graph this is a graph that just shows you over time different the popularity of different keyword searches in Google and you have to take this with a grain of a salt because you know often other words get baked in command in JBPM are fairly unique words activity and flowable had some other things you know get baked in there like concrete and yogurt so you have to filter this out but it's interesting over time because it starts to show just you know the interest in what folks are searching on JBPM for a while was the top search keyword followed by there was a spike when activity came out and then activity kind of led for a while and then around 2017 communda has been the more popular search term in BPMN so just just an interesting graph this doesn't correlate that I'm aware of to the number of you know who's using it this is more just searching searches that folks are doing all the terms and in Google so what we'll do next is starting to get into the detail of each of the products we'll look at it from three dimensions the open source model this is very important to understand because each BPM product has a different open source model and it can be confusing to understand so you want to make sure you understand what you're getting out of community and also enterprise in case you're trying to make that decision between one or the other we'll also look at the capability set across some of the capabilities you see here like a rules engine, a modeler, different deployment modes also cloud managed services or past SAS type type capabilities then we'll take a look at the community activity the contributors of the commits how active is the project so let's dive right in and I'm not going to read each of these line by line but kind of hit the highlights and then we have a side-by-side comparison at the end we'll start with JVPM this is one of the ones that's been around the longest around 19 years just Java based it has both community and enterprise versions their open source model is fairly straightforward everything that's in community is in the enterprise and vice versa typically their enterprise is about two branches behind their community because they want the stable release that's in community and fairly active every about every three weeks they're doing releases some of the big things about the capability set JVPM tends to have one of the larger capability sets they have their own rules engine known as drills they also support all three of the industry notations and one thing that the JVPM project has been focused focusing on going back to our timeline graph since about 2020 is in this new Kajito project and this is where they're building the refactoring of the architecture JVPM you know some of the complaints over time has been it's really big you know big thing to deploy and manage and this Kajito project is basically refactoring it and making it more cloud native and microservice based they're also looking to add some capabilities around reactive messaging and serverless workflow and right now they're they're taking kind of a dual strategy of continuing the traditional project while also providing Kajito as another alternative moving on to Kamunda Kamunda is about nine years old they also have a community and enterprise edition their open source model is a little different where they have their their decision engine known as ZB and then also their desktop modeler available in the community version there's a slight nuance around source available and open source there but for the most part it is is open source then there's a set of capabilities that come with the enterprise and aren't open source but you can use and QA things that help manage the operational aspect of it Kamunda supports BP MN and DMN but not CMM and that was an intentional decision where based on community feedback a few years ago a lot of the community found CMM in is being overly complex and a lot of the things you could do in BPM in a simpler way so based off of community feedback they decided to drop support for that and continue on some of the other key things about Kamunda is it it supports standalone and remote deployments in version 8 and intentionally remove the embedded deployment model and part of that was around scaling and coupling constraints where they found with the standalone remote deployment it gives you that abstraction layer and it's easy to easier to scale so that again was another intentional decision that they found helped help the community provide better solutions the other big thing with Kamunda is they do have a SAS offering known as Kamunda cloud it's based off of GCP so that is that is out there if that is something you're looking for moving on to flowable flowable again forked off of activity about five years ago it is they do have a community enterprise version and they have a slightly different open source model compared to the other two where what they do is they provide pieces of all the different projects but then when you go to enterprise you get additional capabilities on top of that so that's where it's really important to understand what are the pieces that you need for the problem you're trying to solve and understand if they're in the enterprise version or the open source version they do support all three industry notations their modeler is a little different where it is a plug-in into Eclipse and one thing that was interesting there's a blog out there I have links to a lot of these in the notes where they recently showed how you can run the flowable engine in a AWS Lambda and a serverless approach which is pretty cool moving on to activity it's 12 about 12 years old they also have a community and enterprise a vision enterprise solution as the others their model is very similar to flowable where they provide the pieces in the community and then there's additional pieces in parts you get with the enterprise they are very spring boot cloud friendly that's one of the common pieces of feedback I get as I talk to engineers and developers that work with it it's very easy to integrate with spring boot they do have a web modeler and also have an eclipse plug-in similar to commando they have a cloud offering it's a platform as a service known as al fresco cloud that you can use if if you're interested in those so you can start and see some of the nuances and the differences between the different products you know now let's talk a little bit about the community right it's really important with an open source project that you have an active community you want folks contributing to it making commits so you're not the only one that's that's doing right you want a community that you can go to for help and and help enhance it and keep the project going on so I pulled some of the latest commits for the four and you can see here from the graphs the activity of the commits and contributions over the last nine years and when you look at this you have to kind of adjust it for the scale because 20 for JBPM is a different scale than 20 for commando but when I looked at this it you know what I came came away from is commando and flowable there to be the two most active recently in the past least in the past year for commits JBPM was probably in third with commits they were a little lower but you can see from the graph they were fairly consistent and then activity seemed to have periods of being really quiet and had a spike so I don't know if that maybe was due to the fork of flowable but just interesting kind of interesting stuff there and then the other thing when you look at these two if you go back in time for when say flowable forked off activity if you look at like the first half of the graph it's pretty much the same it's because they forked off of each other so there's nuances in there that you can see but it's always good to check this out on the insights tab on GitHub when you're you know trying to figure out if you want to use it definitely want to active community this chart is pretty much just summarizes what I'd already hit the highlights on across the four again this is my kind of perspective after doing some research JBPM had the largest capability set which could be a pro or a con based on the problem you're trying to solve you know there's differences between the capabilities around embedded mode and modler and support for a CMMN and again a lot of differences between the open source models of each of these so anyway what I would say is if you're trying to figure out which one to use like understand how they're different and then try to find the one that matches your company's principles and best practices to help you help you move forward put up here a couple blogs we've written over the years we actually did this lasted this comparison about six years ago and when I was putting this together it's kind of amazed at how much has changed since then but a lot of other interesting articles out here if you're interested these are all in that Capital One tech site a bunch of others that my colleagues have written do stop by the Capital One booth if you're interested we also have a networking event later tonight that you can learn more about so happy to chat more about this and that I think will take any questions sure so the question was what is the what are the use cases where BPM can be a fit for like CICD project management it's good question it can I mean there's no limits to what it can be applied to that fit into the workflow realm I've seen it used in CICD processes there's a wide spectrum of problems it can solve you know I would think of it more of you know from the dimensions of human workflow and also process orchestration are two places where it can help call center yep absolutely yeah that's so the question is what are the web forms for each of the products yeah those are if you think of if we go back see here that have forms called out I don't think I did if we if you think of like data entry for workflow where say a person gets a task that they need to complete and they need to either put in some notes or add in some other things a lot of these tools will automatically generate a UI based off the data attributes some of them are fairly I mean it's not a fancy UI you know they're very basic but it could be a quick way to generate something that you can get out into production for for data entry a lot of use cases I've seen as teams will go out and build their own UI and you know more modern technologies like you know angular you know forms of you know JavaScript or React view and basically interact with the engine through an API cool so the question is is are any of these more cloud native like Kubernetes based when I looked at when I did the recent research commando and flowable have built out support for Kubernetes along with activity so that that seems to be a common a common thread that they're moving towards where you can deploy it Jbpm in their core G to project is also moving towards Kubernetes I know in the traditional project they had a way where you could deploy it in a Docker container but it was literally the whole application so I don't I don't know that would call that Cal cloud native you know you want it you want to split up into you know services and have multiple Docker containers but I think they're evolving over time we use a host of several of these and to the other over the question was what products we use a capital and always forget to repeat the question sorry it so we use we use a mix of these and it's across a range of use cases to the other question you know there's there's a wide spectrum of use cases it can apply to and I've seen them used in kind of both to me actually all three dimensions of human work flow process orchestration and a combination of both yeah great question so the question is in capital one what has been our experience with building roles in a reusable way that is a great question and over over time you know I think we've we've learned along the way you know like everyone else where you do it the wrong way and you fail and you learn you know how to do it the right way you know things as simple as naming conventions having a rule repository having a way to discover things like it's one of the foundational things right to be able to reuse anything you have to be able to find what's already there if it's not easy to find folks are gonna use it they're gonna build something else and then duplicate it so you you often some of those basic things you have to solve for and then things like drools do have a rules repository that integrates with get so you can store your rules and get it on the back end any other questions good question so the question is the capital one do we have any of these products that are used as like an internal service for other divisions to use or is it more embedded and I've seen both where in some cases teams will embed it because their use case was a little simpler and they didn't need to serve like multiple applications but then we have others where maybe they needed to serve an entire division so they used more the standalone approach and you know leverage the API so multiple applications could could reuse the same you know same deployment good question so any is there any product that's better with the shareable or the embedded you know I think some of the experience we've had with definitely activity our spring boot developers that was a plus they felt it was really easy to integrate with spring boots and but the embedded can be done with you know with JVPM or you know the older versions of commando it was version 8 that believe it moved to just the remote or standalone but that's that get to your question kind of gets back to that point of how modular you know is the application like is it one big library or is it broken out into smaller libraries and all you need is like one library to include so each of those is a little different on in terms of how modular the components are they do have a web modeler to my understanding I need to come into the folks to check me on this but I think it's only available in their SAS deployment but that was my understanding any other questions think of anything feel free to stop by our booth and we'll be hanging out there if not thank you for your time in the discussion