If we didn't have the pieces in place to distribute and to gather leads from the content, then the content itself is not enough to really make it a good marketing tool. Welcome to the Smarter Building Materials Marketing Podcast, helping you find better ways to grow leads, sales, and outperform your competition. All right, everybody. Welcome to Smarter Building Materials Marketing, where we believe our online presence should be our best salesperson. I am Zach Williams alongside my co-host, Beth Popney Glove. We've got a great show lineup for you today. We've got an incredible manufacturer who's gonna share with us what's working from a marketing and sales standpoint for the organization and what they're thinking about heading into this next year that you as a manufacturer or someone in the building product space should also be considering. We are really excited to welcome Ben Roberts. He is the North American Marketing Director for Kevony. They are doing some really cool stuff and we're excited he's taken some time out to come and talk to us about it. Ben, thanks so much for your time. Thanks for joining us. Of course, yeah, very happy to be here and excited to talk about something I'm passionate about. Awesome. So for our listeners, why don't you start just by giving us that 30,000 foot view, who you are, what you do, and what you're excited and passionate about, about the things that you're working on. All right, perfect. Yeah, I'll fast forward from born all the way up until I started getting into marketing. And so I started at a local lumberyard as their marketing specialist, which is a great way to say, do everything that we don't understand and isn't directly related to sales. And so that was really my start. And that's what I did. I did everything from the website to social media to blog posting and everything in between. And if we wanted photos, I was the one who brought out my photography skills and found a camera that we never used anymore because everyone has iPhones and started and worked my way up from there. So I was at that company for about five years and had seen the marketing department grow from me to three people. And Kevony was one of our products. And so a couple of years ago, we were selling the product and they reached out to me on LinkedIn, just asking if I was looking for something different. And I was kind of like, no, I'm good where I'm at. I was just very happy with what I was doing. But at the same time, I always am intrigued by something that's gonna be a challenge. And so as we were talking more and more, I was just kind of laying out my plan. And the first thing I said above anything else was, well, the first thing I'm gonna do is start investing heavily in video. And so that kind of intrigued them. And after a few talks, we decided to start and it was ground zero. So they had a part-time marketing person, but that was it. And when I came on, I was the sole marketing person again. But with this time, I was able to build a team around what we were doing and really look for ways that we could make building materials and that manufacturing side different than all of our competitors. And it's been a great ride and that's been just two years, just over two years I've been with Kevonee. That's great. And so just for context, who do you market to and how do you sell your product? So Kevonee is a modified wood, decking and cladding and really who we're primarily hitting first is... And I'm sure everybody always says the same thing, but it's architects, it's builders and then it goes and trickles down into commercial and homeowners. So our product is a kind of a luxury product. Primarily residential, it's primarily residential or you use commercial too? Big mix, we do a lot of commercial jobs. So we've done some huge boardwalks like the Wharf in DC. We just finished Pier 26 in New York City. The Burke Museum in Seattle, but we also are doing a whole lot of residential. Typically that's high in residential, more modern homes. So people are using it in conjunction with concrete, steel and other natural materials. Let's talk a little about video here because you mentioned that was the cornerstone of your strategy. What are you all doing from a video marketing standpoint? Can you talk us through a little bit about the strategy as well as what the execution looks like? Yeah, definitely. When I started getting into video, I was still at my previous job at Timbertown in Austin, Texas and I knew that when you're marketing any sort of building material, you really need to get to the finished product, which is hard because you're so many places removed. And so I just started reaching out to deck builders and whoever else was using our product just so I could get photos of it. And what I always say is if I have to rely on what we do with the product, then all you're gonna see is a bunch of stacks of lumber and that gets old really fast. And so we wanted to see what people were doing with it and photos were a great start, but beyond that, I knew that there was a lot that could be done with video. And so I purchased a video camera and eventually got a videographer and we started at Timbertown doing something that we called Timber Tips. And they were two to three minute long videos just shot in the showroom. And I would type up a page long script and it would be anything from composites verse, real wood decking, just simple stuff. And that really kicked me off on what the potential of video could do. And so when I came to Kevony, I wanted to invest in video in a big way, but I wanted to do something a little bit bigger and a little bit more bold, I guess you could say. And so before I even started, I was coming up with these different plans of what we could do with video. And I came up with an idea that I had tried to pitch when I was at Timbertown and it was this idea of design versus build.  And so when I started in Kevony, I was like, oh, like here's this idea that I never got to use that's just been sitting in my back pocket. And I wondered what if it was a video series instead of a podcast. And so we started by just coming up with a general idea of what it could be and the premise of the show was one unique project and two different perspectives because oftentimes you'll hear from an architect and they're very easy to talk to you about the project because they are bringing all the vision but it's the builders who have to make that vision a reality. And so we thought that this show could be really cool because it's touching two of our biggest demographics in our audience, which is architects and builders. And also it was something that we figured they would find interesting even if they didn't know much about Kevony or any of the products we were selling. Are there any like results that you could talk to us about that you've seen from your video marketing efforts? Yeah, absolutely. The main part of the show and the thing that we started from the very beginning was we did not want this to be a Kevony commercial. So in fact, we don't say Kevony in the video once. So we will show a project that has Kevony on it but if one of the interviewees, the builder of the architect or the developer says Kevony, we cut that part out because we wanted people to see the value in the video in the content itself and not ever feel like we were creating a commercial. So it's very much a independent show and independent, I mean independent from Kevony and their brand and it sits alone as its own brand. And because of that, I think we've been able to publicize it and get it into the hands of more people. And so we get it on publications, trade magazines will publish the videos and it's because we're taking this very independent approach and then we'll also push it on YouTube and we've gotten maybe a quarter of a million views there as well as on Facebook and all the social media pieces. So we probably have a half million views or so in the three episodes that we produced so far and launched. And we also, because it was independent we're able to get it onto a streaming service. So it's on a streaming service called Shelter which is just architect and design driven videos and we're able to put it on there as well. And it helps us reach a much bigger audience than we normally would have because we've decided to make it such an independent piece. Yeah, I'm looking at your site right now. I'm looking at design versus build. It's designvsbuild.com. We'll make sure we link to that in the show notes. And you're right, like the only thing I see about Kevony on here is like the very bottom it's like produced by Kevony. And that's it. And then on your YouTube page and we'll link to this as well. I mean, you're right. There's three video, three full episodes. One of them has 60,000 views and another one has 72,000 views and then one has 131,000 views. That's awesome. That's awesome. Yeah, that's incredible. And it can't be understated. It's partly because you're not just publicizing Kevony which is hard to do. It's hard to put all of those resources behind it and not just blast your logo. That's a concerted effort. But part of your success is because you've strategically left that out. It's a completely different positioning. That's huge. Trust me, it was a hard sell. I believe it. Maybe we can get a beer one day and you can tell me how your VP of sales reacted to that because I feel like it wasn't great. But look at those awesome numbers. That's incredible. Yeah, there's a lot of conversations of what do we just say at one time? Can we just say it once? And I would say no. Some serious negotiations happening. We cannot say it one time.  You're a strong man. And a lot of credit has to be due to our general director in the U.S. and in Europe which is where Kevony is headquartered because that's not something that most people would do. And they would hear you say you're gonna invest how much and you're not even gonna talk about the company that is paying for it. Like that is a tough sell but we knew that people were valuing content more than they were valuing commercials. So if we're gonna invest in anything we want it to be an investment in something that people are finding value in even beyond the building industry. And one of the greatest compliments we get is from people that are not interested in purchasing our products but they still found value and found the episodes interesting. And so we do put a lot into the production. We started off on the first one and the very first hire that I made was a video director. His name was James Burniston and someone I've known for years. And before I was hired, I was telling them I'm gonna hire this guy just so you know.  And because he had the talent of working on feature films and short films and everything else he brings the cinematic value to what we're doing too. And so we're not only producing something that has a lot of good information about it for our audience, it also is just cinematically beautiful. And because of that, we've earned I think a total of eight awards so far with the show. So we just won three gold tele awards which is any sort of video television related content. And you know, you're competing there against huge publications, Nike, Condé Nast and big players and we're able to bring back three golds this year and we won two golds in a silver last year and we won two golds for the W3 awards as well last year. And so it does show that there's, it makes a big difference if you're going to create something that it has value beyond simply the product that you're promoting. I love that. So in terms of building your audience because I think it's a good question, like you've got the content and you put a ton of effort emphasis into the quality of content. How are you distributing that? You mentioned you've got partnerships with different brands, but are you running ads? Do you have an email list? Like talk me through what your launch strategy and your publication and promotion strategy looks like. Yeah, and so when we launch an episode, you know, what we'll do and hopefully next year we can get a little bit better at it because the pandemic really, you know, it halted a lot of our endeavors. And so now we're starting to get a lot more filming in but when we launch, we do put some YouTube ads behind it. We put some social Facebook, Instagram ads behind it just to get a little bit of traction. And then we also have a newsletter that we'll send it out to about, you know, 11 or 12,000 people in the newsletter. And I think that is also a very important point that you bring up, Zach, is that if we didn't have the pieces in place to distribute and to gather leads from the content, then the content itself is not enough to really make it a good marketing tool. And if we are just making these beautiful videos and winning these awards, but we never had any sort of call to action when people were curious about Kebani, then we are losing a lot of the leads that we could potentially have. So before we started this, we redid our website and made sure that it was gonna be optimized for gathering as many leads as possible. Cause if we're gaining an audience, it's of no use to us on the marketing side from Kebani if we can't actually measure any sort of leads coming off of that. So can you talk us more through that lead acquisition strategy? Cause you just talked a lot about something that we love, which is you're not overly promoting Kebani, but you're still turning it into leads. How are you gathering leads and have you been able to measure any tangible ROI? With the Design Verse Build series specifically, we haven't been able to narrow down other than asking how'd you hear about us and figure out how many people are coming from that. And I really put that show at a very high level in terms of the funnel. So that is sitting the widest audience that we could have and really hitting people that they may never buy our products, but that's okay because it's also being shared with people that would. And from there, everything that we do, we're trying to shoot people to the website. So everything that, whether it's other videos that we create or any sort of social media or whatever else is going to the website and on the website, we take a very content-heavy approach. So we're especially focusing on content marketing and marketing and lead generation through forms. And so the very first form that people typically get is the product guide, which is an email lead. So that's just the very basic. From there, we have quotes, we have sample requests and various different calculators that people can use as well. Let's say you're trying to figure out how much linear feat you need, but you know the square footage. Well, there's a calculator you can use to figure out how many boards you need to order with overages. And if you want that email to you, so you don't forget, that's a lead that we capture. The beauty of this series, this design versus build series, not only from the promotion side, but from the PR side is that we are really making some of our top customers, customers for life because they see the marketing power and production power that we're putting into this video. And if they're trying to decide if they're gonna use Kevony or a competitor and they know they could potentially have a designer's build episode done about their project, then it makes it a really easy decision for them. And so just strictly on that PR side, I think it is really beneficial to us as well. And we are gonna promote them above all else. And that's always the hardest thing for even our customers to understand too. We're coming there and not only am I convincing my bosses that we're not gonna say Kevony, I have to convince the customer that, hey, we're not coming here to do a commercial on Kevony. Because at first all they're talking about is Kevony. I'm like, we'll talk about the whole project. We wanna know every aspect of it. We wanna really, truly know what it took to create this as a whole, not just to create the part that we're a part of. And I think that's been huge for us. And it takes us to more opportunities than we otherwise would have had.  A lot of times they've already gotten photos. So you have to pay for their photos or if you can get photos at all. And it's not something that really trips their trigger. But if you're going to them and saying, hey, we want to produce a episode in our critically acclaimed award-winning series all about your project, we haven't had anyone turn us down yet. That's great. Exactly. And we get to be on these sites for a week and learn all about the architects, what they're looking for, what they want, learn all about projects we otherwise may have never been able to see in person. You know, what's interesting about this, Ben, is you're bringing up a lot of reasons behind why you're doing this that are not necessarily terribly measurable. When Beth asked you, hey, how are you measuring ROI? And you're like, well, I don't really know. I don't really know the actual ROI.   Like all those things are not very tangible but they're helping you build a business. And so I think that it's good to show that you can take risks in marketing, in digital, in areas where you can't measure things completely. Like there are things you can, but there are definitely things you can't. It doesn't mean you shouldn't do it. Absolutely. Yeah. And it's got to start somewhere. And would we love to be able to gather ROI on those episodes? Yes. And outside of viewership and seeing the popularity or someone saying, hey, we found you through this method. Yeah, we're looking at other aspects that show the value, like you said. But at the same time, if we didn't come out and take the risk, then we wouldn't really know if it was gonna work or not. And so again, it's credit to those that we originally pitched the idea to you to say, okay, well, we don't exactly know what percentage of sales this is going to equate to. But we're willing to take the chance. And I think that's something that is difficult for people to do. This is not an original idea. And it's original to building materials. And I can't think of many that are using video content in this way, especially when we started a couple of years ago. Now I'm just starting to see brands that are building materials that are using video in different ways. And some of them are very unique and creative. But I haven't seen any that are willing to to not make it about themselves. And that was a big commitment that we had to make with this show is like, we're not gonna make it about ourselves because that is the easiest way to be put in the category of salesy, commercially, all about you. And that's truly not what we wanted to do. We wanted to celebrate everybody except ourselves. And the ROI will come. The number one ROI is always sales. Sales are great. Is that 100% contributed to design versus build? No, but you got to have that as part of the tools that you're working with. That's great. What advice would you give to manufacturers? I know a lot of manufacturers honestly have video on their radar for 2022. Maybe not all at this really highly produced level, but for sure looking to invest more in video. What advice would you give to them as they're starting to put together maybe a storyboard or even like a content calendar or strategic plan? Where should they start? I would say the first thing you have to look at is, what's gonna be valuable to your customers? And sometimes that can be answered by what would you watch? What would you wanna see if you were following a brand that you particularly loved? What would you like to see them create for you? And again, it's not a new process. You see companies like Mailchimp that are producing all kinds of original content. And all of a sudden you have brands that are turning themselves into media hubs. And I think that that is the future. So if you aren't thinking about video, it would be like you 10 years ago wondering why you needed a website. It's inevitable and it is only becoming bigger and what people are looking for is original content. Things that are valuable to them. So I would just start with, what's gonna be interesting for you to watch? And from there, start with whatever you can do. Again, when I started, it was Timber Tips and it was, they were very lo-fi, you could say. But it all pays off in the end because I just, I had somebody reach out to me from college on LinkedIn and they found a Timber Tips video because they're looking to build a deck and they had some question that it answered. And so two years later, people are finding these videos that I did years ago and he was like, hey, he was like, oh, I know that guy and just found me on LinkedIn and I think that's something to understand too. He's like, this is the long play. We have a lot of stuff that we're doing on the short term to bring in sales. This is very much a long-term thing. It's, and we're talking about producing video at an episodic level. I mean, we have, we're filming now what we're gonna be launching in 2022 throughout the year. That's great. That's perfect. Ben, man, thank you so much for coming on the show. If someone wants to connect with you or follow you or subscribe, what's the best way for them to do that? You know, I don't think I'm all that interesting. I doubt that. I would disagree. I think the best way to find me and really, you know, the place to start would be going to designversusbuild.com to see what we're doing and get a feel for it yourself. A lot of times, again, people are looking at what, what, you know, they're like, oh, a building materials company wants to come make a video. And they don't really understand what that means when we say that, until we say, well, we're gonna bring a team of five people and we're gonna be there filming for a week, sun up to sun down, and then they realize, oh, this is something legitimate. So if you want good examples of what can be done, go to designversusbuild, and we have an Instagram as well at designvsbuild. If you'd like to see some of the things that I'm doing and the places I eat and funny videos of my kids, that's about what I'm doing on my social profiles and that's at bwroberts83 on Instagram. That's great. Ben, thank you so much. This is super helpful and insightful and transparent. Can't think enough and hats off to Kebani for having the vision for this because it's really super impressive. Definitely, yeah. And for our listeners, if you enjoyed this content, make sure you go to venvio.com slash podcast to subscribe and get more. Until next time, I'm Zach Williams alongside Beth Pompany-Glove. Thanks everybody.