Hi, welcome to our new setup, live, live from a restaurant. This is where we're doing every reaction now. Yeah, and on this table, Corbin will lie naked. Oh. Back down to 100,000 subscribers. But loyal. Josh!  I'm Alexis. I'm Rick. And you can follow us on Instagram and Twitter. Tell them all juicy content. We're going to get a rip out of your whole. Follow us for your Twitter account, subscribe, and hit the like button. And it's an exciting day, because we're eating some food. And we're not in our place. We are actually at a restaurant called Chennai Tiffins. And we're technically Kenoga Park. Is this Kenoga Park? Yeah. OK. It's like Kenoga Park, Woodland Hills border. Kornoga? Yeah. Not far from us, but I've been here a few times. I've had it there, Breani only though. And so today, I'm doing, we're doing, I think we're trying five or six doses or slash other things that are like doses that I don't know the name of, which they will tell me. For Alexis, this is brand new territory. She's not had dosa anywhere at any time. Whoa. I don't believe so. Yep. And it'll please you to know they're predominantly made from cat. Yes. We already have our. We already have our filtered coffee. It's actually quite good. It is. Not as good as India, but it's good. But for filtered coffee that's in a little cup like this at a small place, it's quite tasty. Yes, but so they're going to bring us one at a time. And I wanted to do it this way because we actually, I think one of the first food videos we did on the channel, we actually had dosa from the place right by our old, old house. Did I have it then? No. I don't think so. I think it was just me and Rick. But it was when we got it, it was dosa, but it was like very limp and soggy because it'd been on it to make me as opposed to crisp. It's supposed to be like this really crispy, fresh thing. So I was like the next time we do one, I want to do one in a restaurant. I reached out. They kindly said they would allow us to film here. It's not a sponsored video, but they were really kind to let us do this video here. So I think it'll be a lot of fun. Yep. And I'm hungry. Thank you so much. Thank you. Thank you very much. So the first one we got is a masala dosa. Can you tell me what these are for me real quick? Yeah, the chutneys. Coconut, peanut, and tomato. And this is samba. Thank you. Thank you so much. I appreciate that. And so yeah, this looks delicious. I know Alexis is going to dive right into the tomato. You've never had a masala dosa. No. Nothing. This is new to her.  Yummy. Is this one filled or is it just the actual? I don't know what it is. I thought it was just the actual dosa. Oh, sorry. It's just the dosa. I thought we got the one with the potato fillet. Yeah, sometimes they're filled and sometimes they're not cylindrical. Sometimes they're in the shape of like a triangle. But let's just get into this one. Let's snarf. So tomato, peanut, and coconut. And then there's that. Some. Oh, there it is. Thank you so much. Never mind us. Sorry about that. I'll clean it up. Don't worry. He's just getting started. Don't worry. I'll clean it up. It's way too early for you to have had this much old muck. Oh, my word. I got a little bit of that on my fingers and it's burning my mouth right now. Very, very nice of you. The back of the mind, he's thinking, why did we let them in here? And so is there a certain way you're supposed to eat these at all? With your mouth. Just with your hand in your mouth, basically. All right, so basically you. I know I feel very far. We can scoot. Scoot. Move your microphone up. What I love is that this part of the dosa over here is right where Corbin's shoes were. But don't scoot up too much.  Oh, you're so right.  Oh, this feels really lovely. Be careful of the. OK. Yeah, so that's why you need it. Y'all are stressing me out. It's like flaky. I'll do tomato first, because I know Alexis doesn't like it. Grab some of this. You're supposed to have some of this, no? Grab some of the potato in there. Sure. Doesn't matter. This is the basically potato. Oh. Wow. Have any manners at all? Is it really tomato-y? It's tomato-y in the same way that salsa is tomato-y. And it's got some heat. You don't like it. Oh. How much heat are we talking? Quite a bit. Oh. That's very good. Quite a bit. Get some of this potato. OK. Get some of that potato in there. Oh, that's good. Put it in your eye. Got it. Nice. Eat it. You like the tomato part. Look at that. Eat it. No, it's not spicy. Don't eat that. Don't eat it? No. Why? It's spicy for you. You can do it, but it's hot. You did the potato, right, Lex? Yeah. All right. I'm eating the tomato. I need some of this. He's eating the tomato. I was just saying it's going to be hot for him because he can't have like. It tastes like tomato soup, but you'd be surprised how well he did it in India. I mean, you'd be really shocked. Is it hot? It's hot. Funny, bro. I'm such a wimp. It's OK. Did you try the peanut one? I liked the peanut. I haven't. I liked the peanut one. Mamacita. That's not a mark. This is lovely. Ooh, the peanut's nice. It's almost like a vegetable soup. And then the coconut's nice. This is a coconut. Put the lime in the coconut and drink it. Y'all are stressing me out so much. You both have spilled already on yourselves. Can I have some of the peanut? I really like the masala. I mean, the dosa and the potato are really good, actually. Yeah. Yeah, that's super yummy. This tastes like sunscreen. I'm not a coconut fan. Hey, there are people that really just cannot with coconut. No, it actually tastes good. But do you know how Malibu tastes? Yeah. I think Malibu tastes like sunscreen. Yeah. And I like it. But it tastes like sunscreen. That's nice. Which one did you try? The peanut. Peanut. I like the heat on the tomato more. But the peanut's nice. I'll try the coconut after you do. This is your first time tasting the samba? Yeah. Nice, huh? I like that. Try the coconut there. All right. This is like a nice flaky dosa, man. Micah would be obsessed with that. It just by itself, it's really nice. Yeah. Coconut. If I had some rice, I'd be great. Ginger, mango, garam masala. Samba is the best. What's this? This is the name of the criminal who gave this to a poor man. It's 28 days old. It's over 85 million. He has told us about this in Peradupur. Oh. Do I send? And it has a little heat on it. Yeah. My mouth is on fire. That is interesting. I like that. I do too. What's your favorite one? It's... Have you ever done pulling with coconut oil? No. Ew. Have you done it? No. I never will. You disgusting man. But it tastes, it's predominantly cooked. It's so predominantly coconut. It tastes like just straight coconut oil. Oh, is that what it tastes like? Yeah. It's good. I like it all. I like the taste of coconut oil. I like them all. I mean, just the dosa by itself with the... All of it? The potato is just wonderful. I would happily order one of these with all of this and eat it with joy. What happened to you? Nothing. You're laughing about something. Corbin just makes me laugh. Oh, yeah. In a good way. I'm not laughing at you. It doesn't matter to me. As long as laughter is there, I don't care. My self-worth is in my head. Some of... Ugh. The potato. The potato. It catches up. It catches up. The tomato is my favorite one. That's my favorite one. Tomato is your favorite? Yeah. Well, I've eaten this. Even the sambar? I know these are different though. The sambar is delicious. What were you saying about the potato? They put that in samosas, no? Is that the right word? Samosas? It's similar. Yeah. This? The potato? Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And the round ones. It's kind of like spices with potato and peas. Those are good. Those are a little bit more... I remember you sort of me correctly. A little bit more spice and flavor than this. This is a little more mild. This is delicious. It's good. It's a really, really good. It's a really nice dosa. Highly recommend. Yeah. Especially for LA, man, you know. And much better than the one we had at the house. Not just for LA in general, but the sense that so many places in America, the predominant cuisine of Indian food is just northern. It's wonderful to know that this is here. I mean, we're just having the first one. I'm sure the rest of it's going to be equally delicious. Delicious. Have you had mango lassi? Thank you very much. Maybe once. Thank you so much. I think I had it with you guys from some place and you said that the place we got it from was not very good, I think. Or did it come in a can? Oh, it might. Because we haven't got it at a store before? Yeah, and that's the way it is. So what is it, like a smoothie? Yeah, kind of, but more mango-y. Thank you. Hold on. Never mind. Oh, that's really good. That cools down my mouth.  Wow. Is that what it feels like to have chlamydia? I don't know. It just sounds hot and painful. What do you think of our food? Well, I'm after the first bite. It felt like I had chlamydia over the mouth. No, that's not what it was saying. That's good. Yeah, it is. Cools down the mouth. Nice. Nice. Thank you. Which one is this? Oh, spring dosa. Spring dosa. Spring dosa. Thank you. And that's the same stuff? Yeah. Thank you so much. Spring dosa, as in the season or as in the actual leaping up into the air? Yes. Like, ticker. Yeah, they don't have to keep bringing it. I know. We're just going to waste them if we. We're just going to waste the chutneys. All right, so this one I'm not going to spill. We appreciate that. Very much. All right. So spring dosa. This is going to be messy. What's in them? Spring. Spring time. It's warm. I feel like they're going to be messy. It's going to stretch me out. It looks like onions. Oh, my goodness, this is going to be glorious. It looks delicious. Wait, we're smelling it. What are you going to dip in? Are you just going to go for it? I'm just going to go for it as is right now first. Come on, Chia. Oh. Cheers. Hello, darkness, my old friend. Oh. Oh. Hot. Aren't you just like a spring roll? Oh, it's burning. Oh, that's good, though. Oh, that's the term spring. Those onions. Wow. Those onions are delicious. It's in the same vein as a spring roll, but it's got so much flavor. Wow. This would be really good with the peanut. It fell on my leg and it burned, and I'm scared. Sounds exact. That's what happened to Corbin's mom last night. She said that was the exact same thing. Oh, my god. Ooh, that's quite. It fell on my leg. It's really good. That's very good. It burned. That's spring doses. Fire. Those onions really make it. I'm nervous. Don't be nervous. I already spilt it.  Oh, yeah? Yep, right here. When it hits puberty. What happens when a spring roll grows up? I'm going to dump it in the sambar here. Yeah, that's what she said. Oh, it's so hot. It's a good name for a podcast. Dump it in the sambar. Wow. It looks like it has bell peppers, carrots, onions. Yeah, in the sambar? What?  It's so hot. It's so good, though. My word, that's delicious. That's super tasty. The dosa is nice and crispy. Yeah. The onions inside really make it. I feel like super delicious. And with the sambar, especially. Might be really good with the peanut one, too. Because there's a lot of it. It was, I did it with the peanut one. There's a lot of it. Yeah, that's what's all over the top of it. The wings kept up. Oh my gosh. Yeah, that's the green stuff right there. Oh my gosh, I'm scared. That was great. Yeah, I mean, I liked them both so far. That one's just more complex because it has more stuff in it. Yeah. So that's just a dosa that you dip, which is wonderful. Yeah, that's also really lovely. It's just the potato dosa. Hard to say a favorite, but they're man. I also love that the chuckies are so different. Really, why? Well, if I see some on the menu, that's a veggie spring roll. I don't normally go for those. I don't either. And so if something is a veggie, or what is it called? A spring dosa, I'm like, oh, I'll get something else. That's a little more fulfilling. But this actually, Indian food, you know. Yeah, but it is interesting. Indian food's filling, man. I don't recall there being as heavy a cilantro flavor on stuff and this worked. You think it tastes like cilantro?  Well, because there's so much fresh cilantro on top, captain obvious. Well, that's tasty. That was good. Not too hot either. What is this? Onion rubble. One more time? Onion. OK. OK, so he said it's onion. So I'm assuming it's the same thing as a dosa, but it has more onion in it. It has onion. It has cilantro. Cool, thank you. Yeah, Rick Siegel. Yeah, mine's not anything. Yeah, no, I think hers is private, so. Mine's private. No, no, she's just his daughter. So she comes on the channel occasionally. It's mine and his channel. You're already starting. What are you doing? How was it? How was it? Lovely. How was it compared to the normal butter dosa? Very, very different. It feels like a great. Lots of flavor, lots of. I'm just going to eat it. Spice. I'm going to clean first. Super flavorful, cool texture. Oh, that might be my favorite. Isn't that good? Over everything? Well, it's kind of spicy. It's got some zing. Oh, I want it with this. It does have a little. I must admit. He always says, this is the way you know it's spicy for Corbin. He says it does have a little. Yeah, this might be. It must have chilies in it. I think it does. I think the green things are chili. And for sure has chilies in it. Onion rava dosa, I believe what it's called. I love the texture. If you're not going for like, sorry. But if you're just doing it like a straight dosa with the potato in it, that first one's really great. If you want that basic, just lovely morning dosa eating. This compared to the spring roll, this is so flavorful. Mixed veggie utapam. Thank you. Does this one have the chilies on it? Yeah, chilies. Excellent. Thank you so much. Utapam. It's kind of like a dosa. Kind of. Thank you so much. That's how it goes. Utapam, utapam, everyone knows. Watch all the spices destroy Corbin's nose. Everything's. My throat. The texture of that is wonderful. I love that. That is awesome. Yeah. All right, let's try the other one. It's just the right amount of heat for me. I would get. It's lovely. Let's watch Corbin die. I don't know. Looks like a big German pancake. It does. Wait, is that chilies or peas? He said there's chilies. I think it's got both. It's got peas and chilies. I think they're chopped up in there. My mouth is. Go for it. I'm nervous for you. It looks like a pancake on the bottom. Does it feel like a pancake? Yeah. Oh, it's hot. Be careful. Mm. Be careful. They spit. I'm going to try without anything first. Me too. That's what's working. Oh, I smell the peppers. Oh no. Is it going to be bad for me? I don't think so. Very pee heavy. Oh, yeah, there's heat. There's heat. This one's got the hottest amount of heat in it. Really? I took a big bite. Yeah, if you take a big enough bite, that one's got some. I just got a lot of peas. That one's got heat. Anything else? What? Was there one more dosa or? Four. Udapa. Was there not one more? Sure. Yeah, let's do that one. Cool. Thank you so much. I went back to this one with peanut. It's mmm. Did you dump this one at all? I put it in here. It's pretty good. So I like this, but I really am not a fan of peas. There's a lot of peas in there. I shouldn't have gone back in. Oh my god. Yeah, that was really brave of you, actually. Oh my god. Oh my god. I didn't get any heat in that. You need to grab a big chunk. I'd really honestly rather not. If it has that much heat in it. No, no, if it's too hot, I just would rather not be in pain. Oh, I see a little chili. You wouldn't be in pain. Seeds. But it is hot. I'm in pain emotionally. Oh. Because that's not a new Taylor Swift song. It's not jalapeno hot. Oh, I know it's Serrano hot. It's hot. No, it is. No, I disagree with that. Oh, poor Corbin. Potato. So far, everything's been fantastic. Not just good. Like really good. How would you rank them so far? They're all excellent. Yeah, they are. It's just a matter of personal preference. This one's like a pancake. So this is and the heat. It's probably my least favorite, though. I think this one's top for me. And then I like the regular, the first one we got. Correct. The regular dosa with the potato. So that, that, that, that, I think. Yeah, the spring roll in this one's kind of a tie. Kind of tied. They're just so different. Yeah, they are. I bet that one's really good with the coconut. I can't taste anything. Because the offset, the heat with some of the mild of the coconut. I can't taste anything. You should eat potato. That right there is probably, I feel sorry for Corbin with that one. If only he hadn't dropped the first one. This one's damaging. You could be eating that right now. But that is 100%. The texture on that is no different from a pancake. Absolutely the same consistency. Your texture is no different than a pancake. Now put it over there. I don't want it. Oh, don't even want it near you? Yeah.  Oh, I was right. It's good with the coconut. That's really good with the coconut. Oh wow, that's super delicious with the coconut. Corbin is really struggling. I just want to dip my tongue in cold water. Like lap it up like a dog. It's so good with the coconut. Oh. Yeah, the onion dosa. Yeah. Onion rava. This with the peanut is so good. The texture on that is so fun. I love crunchy. The texture of that one's just unmatched. And the flavor profile is really nice. He's looking into the void. He's staring into the void. I'm gonna trance right now.  I can't wait to watch that back and see how long he was staring at me. Probably a long time. I don't know what you guys were talking about just now. That one, maybe I've just got leftovers of that, but that one has heat. Now that one has heat. That started all this situation for him. And then that just made it worse.  A little bit of that with the coconut. Okay, grab a little bit. A little bit of that with the coconut. A little bit of that with the coconut. With the coconut. A little bit of that with the coconut. A little bit of that with the coconut. A little bit of that with the coconut. Oh, crrrr. Haven't heard that in a long time. Oh, crrrr. That's good. Isn't that nice? Mm-hmm. Oh, crrrr. Oh, what is this? That's not what I ordered. What is it? Yeah, it is. Gobi Manchurian, that's a cauliflower. Cauliflower. That's cauliflower. Ooh. Thank you. Interesting. Gobi Manchurian. What's interesting is the cauliflower actually looks like it's a chicken. How do I eat this? With your fingers, man. It's Indian food. Oh my gosh. Do I eat it with, or do I? Don't give him a fork. Fork it? Don't give him a fork. Thank you. You guys can eat it. I don't need those fingers. I was gonna say I don't need a fork either. No, no forks. We didn't order this. Yes, you did. You just did. No, I didn't. Yes, huh? If you moment, I do you. Sure. Yeah, let's do that one. Cool, thank you so much. This is what he brought you last. Oh, it smells glorious. It really looks like chicken. Right? This isn't chicken. Cauliflower. It smells really good. Yep, I'm scared. It's red. Here we go, Sancra. Sancra. Tink. Oops, sorry. That's okay. Oh, it's so good. It's so good. What did you just do? It was too big for my mouth. I took it too big of a piece. That's what she said. That's really good. I mean, it's a smaller piece. It wouldn't. I couldn't chew it. What? What? Oh, is it good? It's so good. Try it. It's so good. It's really, really good. That is delicious. She turned to me, Corbin, and she said it's spicy. Oh, my goodness. Ah! Oh, it's so good. That is so good. Love. That with a little bit of rice. I don't love this. Oh, thank you so much. Oh, thank you. This is so good. This is so good. It's so good. I apologize for his behavior. Oh, ma'am. I'm taking one of these back to Andrani. It's really good. Where are you laughing at him right now? The Indian workers are laughing at this white boy in the background. Oh, God, that's spicy. I think it's the hottest thing we have. Oh, man. But it's so good. The flavor is so good. I'm so glad you like it. With rice? That would be... This is without question my favorite thing we've had. Andrani will really like it. It's not even in the Dosa family. Well, you know, of the doses, that one was my favorite, and then the first... Now it's going to be hard to title this video. We had five doses and...  I don't know. So rank them now. Besides this, so rank the doses. The things that you can rank. So first of all, the ranking is just an extra activity. Everything is so good. I highly recommend coming here. Unless you don't like spicy food. Or your taste buds. If you're oversensitive, because this isn't overtly hot. Say it right.  So, we just had what? Five items? My guess is everything on the menu is going to be fantastic. Everything was good. But besides this, I put them in order of the ones that I would order and eat most often would be the first one, which is your standard Dosa, breakfast Dosa. Onion Rava Dosa. And then this would be three. And then the spring roll would be four. Really? Spring roll is number one. Really? Well, it's the most mild. Well, no, the first one. The first one would be two. If it didn't have spice, it had a great flavor to it. It's really good. I love that. Onion Rava Dosa is quite good.  You? Onion Rava Dosa. And then just the regular one that we had in the beginning. And then that one and then this one. Gotcha. I cannot get over this cauliflower dish. But they're all so good. I know it's unreal. I would drive here just for this. It's unreal. Well, I know cauliflower, which is Gobi, I believe, and that's how they pronounce it, is one of the most popular dishes in India. They do use a lot of cauliflower. I love cauliflower. Thank you so much to Chennai Tiffins for helping us out. And with this video. I've wanted to do this video for a while. The owner was very helpful. We came on a day that they were open, but they were only doing takeout. We got the whole inside to ourselves so we're not disturbing people with my dying over here. The actual address, if you want to come see it, it's Woodland Hills. But let us know. They have other stuff, so maybe we'll come back and do a different kind of video. Or maybe we can go to some other restaurants that have different parts of India food that we can try. Maybe we'll have Micon. I've already on as well. Let us know what we should try next down below.


Hello, Psych2Go viewers. Our guest for today's live stream is renowned psychiatrist and scientist and founder of Mindex Sciences, Dr. Alexander Nikolescu. Over the last two decades, Dr. Alexander's incredible work includes the groundbreaking development of blood tests for psychiatric disorders. And he's been featured on PBS, Fox News, BBC News, ABC News, and so many other publications that showcase his amazing work. Welcome, Dr. Alexander. Thank you so much for joining us today. Great to be with you, Michelle. Absolutely. So can you tell us a little bit about yourself and your background? Yeah, so I'm a psychiatrist. I see patients who get referred to me from colleagues primarily at this point, could have complicated cases and so on. I also run two large research labs at Indiana University School of Medicine when I'm a professor, where we do a lot of this sort of cutting-edge work. And in addition, I founded a company, Mindex Sciences, to take these products out there so people can have access to them. So we developed apps, we developed blood tests that can be used to bring more precision and clarity to mental health, to help people sort of take charge of their own mental health, not have to go through that whole uncertainty trial and error process, all those issues that are sort of part of current practice. In the end, you know, it's individuals who benefit the most from these. I mean, certainly these tools help doctors and therapists and counselors and coaches and so on. But in the end, it's your life. So you better take charge of it and make sure your things are going in the right direction. Thank you so much for that. And before anything else, I just wanna know what inspired you to work on such an amazing mental health development? Like just, it wasn't like something personal because it's just something so groundbreaking. Yeah, yeah. So in my case, actually, ever since I was a kid, I wanted to work on the brain. I felt it was like the ultimate frontier. So when I was in high school, I wanted to be a theoretical physicist, but then I decided, you know, the human body, the brain are much more interesting. So I went into ultimately the medical school, then did graduate work. My graduate work was in genetics. And at that time we were studying the genetics of cancer. That was back at Scripps in San Diego, California.  So then after I finished my graduate work and went back to finish my clinical training at UC San Diego and so on, I brought a lot of those insights from cancer into psychiatry and wanted to see if we can use some of the same genetic tools, the same precision tools to mental health.  And really in the end part of primary care and preventive care, when you go to your doctor for your annual or your pediatrician, you should get some of these assessments and tests done just like you get assessed and tested for screened for anything else. So you can catch things early, intervene early and so on. So that was really the motivation to, can we do something where I could combine sort of my passion for understanding the mind with bringing some precision and relief to how clinical practice is done. And we've been on this journey, my group has been on this journey for over two decades now. Wow. Yeah, I've moved to Indiana almost 20 years ago, specifically to work on this. There was an opportunity here to develop a long-term study in a stable population to follow people over time, see when they're doing well, not doing well, get their blood samples for genomic studies. And just this sort of long-term approach has been very productive for us. And I think we're almost caught up, if not caught up with cancer at this point, we can have precision. And who knows, in some areas, we may be a little bit more advanced because it's not just about biology and doing a precise lab testing and genetic testing. You also have to understand how people feel, think and behave. So we developed digital tools for that. In particular, we have an app that we released called Life and Mind. Life and Mind. It's downloadable from the Apple Store, Google Store. People can use that to take charge of their lives to measure in a precise way, how they feel, think, how life events affect their feelings, thoughts, behaviors. It's very comprehensive. So it's basically your mental health in a sense. In a nutshell. In a nutshell. And thank you so much for bringing up that point because a lot of the times people treat mental health and healthcare as if they're two different things, but mental health is healthcare, right? Correct. Yeah. There's no health without mental health. Mental health is not healthcare. Yeah. And that's our mission here at Psych2Go. Thank you so much for that. And so I'm gonna just start with my first question. How do you believe that the development of blood tests for anxiety and depression will revolutionize mental health and the healthcare system at large? You know, so I like to say it's sort of a small step for medicine, but it's a big step for the field of psychiatry. In psychiatry, we weren't used to be able to objectively assess how people feel and think until we develop these blood tests. And, you know, if you think about it from the person's perspective, there's a lot of uncertainty in their mind. You know, is this really happening? What am I feeling? Is this just me being, you know, weak as the sort of fluff of character? Why can't I get over this and so on? So when you do, you know, these blood tests and see, you know, there's something objective. It's not that, you know, mysterious, just like you have certain things that are off when you have diabetes and so on. It's something objective that's happening. There's no stigma, no shame. It guides treatment. That removes a lot of the uncertainty and stigma that still surround, unfortunately, you know, mental health disorders. So that's on the patient side. And, you know, they can be reassured. They can see, you know, is the treatment working?  Then from a clinician perspective, again, it, you know, it removes uncertainty. Diagnosis in psychiatry, if you're just sort of relying on the current DSM or trying to sort of fit people into those boxes is very, very imprecise. Most people end up with multiple labels, you know, depression, anxiety, PTSD, borderline, whatever, you know?  They have multiple things going on. We're trying to put these labels on them for insurance reasons for, you know, so that we can have something to have as a primary diagnosis and maybe as a, you know, to guide treatments. But those are imprecise.  And in addition to these tests that we devolve much people in a personalized way to existing treatments. So you would see, you know, you might benefit from lithium or you might benefit from acetalopram or you might benefit from this or that. In a personalized way, as opposed to your doctor thinking you have depression, they give you an antidepressant and you have bipolar and antidepressant makes you worse or trying medications that are not a good fit for you biologically and so on. So it helps patients, it helps doctors. It helps everybody, I think, because in the end, if you had this as part of your annual, right? When you go to your primary care doctor, your pediatrician for your annual exam and you get an extra blood tube for your mental health, you could catch early on before something develops. You know, if you're, you know, if your things are moving in the wrong direction and you could address them early on and it's much better to try to prevent things than to treat something when it's full blown.  Yes, thank you for that. And then just to add to that, and I had a question for you as well. Do you think that developing these blood tests and treating it more like, you know, kind of like the way you would treat like cancer, like taking a blood test or a pregnancy test? Or diabetes, or diabetes. Yeah, or diabetes. Do you think you'll help eliminate the stigma that you see so much with mental health? People not believing it's real, that it's just made up? Absolutely, absolutely. And that's what a lot of my patients tell me, like, thank you so much, Doc, for developing these things because now I see it's not just in my head and the people can see, you know, I'm going through these things. There's something real happening inside of me that's leading to this behavior. So I think that would be sort of a direct consequence of normalizing, you know, mental health and making it just like any other medical specialty. It removes all the stigma. Already through the work that you and others are doing, you know, there are all these well-known people, celebrities and so on that, you know, come out and say, look, you know, I have bipolar or I have depression or I suffer from panic attacks and so on. And that helps. But still, you know, just having something objective showing, you know, it's a biological abnormality. It can be treated, can be improved, it can be resolved. I think it's very helpful and it's a relief to patients. Yeah, and it's so interesting that it's been, you know, it's a long time coming because they haven't developed this up until now. You know, you guys are starting to develop this, but how come you think that these types of developments haven't been made yet? Because when you think about it, panic attacks, anxiety, depression, a lot of those disorders have like people experience a physiological reaction, yet we still can't test it. And as of right now, we still can't test it in blood. We still can't measure it the way we would measure diabetes and all of that. Why do you think after all this? As of right now, we can actually test it. So, you know. Well, now, but like, why has it been such a long time coming? Yeah. It's very hard to develop this test. So it took us 20 years of hard work.  In psychiatry, we can biopsy the brain, right? It's, yeah. So we had to, you know, do this all this detective work and careful stepwise discovery, validation, testing of things that correlate with symptoms. And you have to be, you know, very thorough and careful how you identify these things, validate them, make sure they're real reproducibles. And we did all that and we published all that before we launched any of the tests. So it's not easy. That's the short answer. It's not easy because you're trying to find an objective measure for a subjective feeling, right? You have these first things that, you know, people feel and think, whereas in cancer, there's a tumor in diabetes, you know, there are other objective things that you can cross-match with in colon cancer. You have a colonoscopy that you match your liquid biopsy blood tests against us and so on. So I think that was the primary reason. Also, psychiatry, right or wrong, you know, mental health in general is viewed as complex, you know, the current DSM has over 300 diagnoses categories. And that sort of complexity and confusion and criteria and how do you, what do you diagnose, et cetera, has also made this harder. We went for very simple quantitative phenotypes. We developed our own tools to measure mood, anxiety, stress, so you can get the number at this moment in time for your anxiety, for your mood, for your stress, and that's all in the life and mind app. And that simplified things, you know, instead of trying to find biomarkers for depression, depression is something very heterogeneous and, you know, there are many subtypes. We found biomarkers that track your mood state.  So I think being very precise about measuring feelings, thoughts and correlating that with very precise biological measures has been very important and that's how we did it. It's not easy. That's why it took so long. It's definitely not easy. It's like revolutionary. This is gonna revolutionize healthcare. And so I just wanted to get into specifics. How do the blood tests, how do the blood tests you're developing determine whether someone has anxiety or not? Like what is the exact process? I know that in one of the PBS documentaries I was watching about, you know, your development is that you guys test biomarkers. So can you explain that to our audience? Yeah, yeah. So biomarkers, it's an abbreviated term for biological markers. These are molecules in the blood that are a marker of disease, whether it's disease severity at that moment in time or disease risk. So a simple way to think about it is that, for example, for diabetes, which is very common disorder, glucose is a biomarker there. It's a biological marker. You measure somebody's glucose, blood sugar, you know, if it's in the normal range, is it abnormal at that moment in time? There are other markers in diabetes. There's one called without being sort of too technical and playing the doctor here, but it's called hemoglobin A1C. That one, if you measure it, it tells you like more like long term whether, you know, this is more of a long term thing as opposed to the glucose which fluctuates from hour to hour depending if you ate or not. So by analogy, there are those two types of, those two categories of biological markers for different mental health conditions. Some that measure state at that moment in time, how anxious you are at that moment and some that measure your long term risk of having future worsening of your anxiety, episodes that can land you in the ER, the hospital, and so on.  I can feel it, you know. Yeah, you feel it. Yes, you don't need a blood test to tell you that. I mean, you're experiencing what you're experiencing and that's the truth of that, you know. That's the reality, what you're experiencing is what matters. But you might need the blood test to help, you know, confirm that there's a biological process that can be addressed through therapy or through nutraceuticals or to medications. Yeah, and so just sorry to interject, I wanted to know, and would the biological markers help determine if it's genetic? You know, this is a very good question. Let me dispel a myth. Okay. Everything is gene and environment. Everything. In biology, in medicine, in life, all of who we are and what we do, our genes and environment interacting. It's just in some cases, it's more the genetic predisposition and less the environment. And in some cases, it's primarily the environment. You're going through really bad things in your life and those really affect your biology. But in the end, our biology, upstairs and downstairs, are genes getting turned on and off depending on your genetic predisposition and what's happening in your environment or what medications you're on, what drugs, what stressors, et cetera. So in the end, it's all genes and environment. And that's what we measure with our biological markers. We measure gene expression, how active certain key genes are. And that's the result of your genetic predisposition and of the environmental things that you're going through. So that's sort of the Zen answer to the coin. It's both genes and environment. Yeah, and I feel like sometimes people don't want to accept that maybe it's in their genetics to be predisposed to depression and anxiety. I think that's also where the stigma comes from as well, right? But your genes are not your destiny. You can modify their expression with therapy, with lifestyle changes, with nutritional supplements, with medications. So I think it's actually a very hopeful message that even things that have where there's a predominantly genetic component can be corrected and modified. That's how medicine works. You're modifying gene expression with treatments. And improving, you know, everyday, yeah. And so I was going to ask, how do biological markers in the blood correlate with brain function and the behavior of a person? So, you know, that was the key thing. You know, why would you see something in the blood that reflects what's happening in the brain, right? And there are three reasons for that. So the brain and the immune system, really when we're looking in the blood, we're looking at the activity of immune cells, white cells. The brain and the immune system are very closely linked together during your embryonic development. They're highly interrelated tissues. Then after you're born, there's still a lot of brain immune interactions. So, you know, how you feel and think your stress can affect your immune system. This is why when people are stressed out, they're more prone to develop flus, colds, et cetera. And conversely, your immune system can have a strong impact on your brain.  Think you become depressed. Your cognition is impaired and so on. And the third reason is they're the same genes, upstairs and downstairs, and some of the same environmental components turn on and off the same genes, upstairs and downstairs, whether it's stress hormone or medication or some other sort of environmental things from the external environment or from the internal milieu. So for those three reasons, we're able to pick a peripheral signature that correlates with what's happening in the brain. You have to be very careful. So that's why we do these things. It takes us many years to identify and validate and test these things because it's like a needle in the haystack. Many things are changed in terms of, in the blood, in terms of gene expression and so on. How do you find the real signal that tracks what's changing the brain is the challenge and we develop very careful methods to do that and that's been what helped us achieve these breakthroughs. Absolutely, and on the point of the breakthrough I want to test before our audience segment, I wanted to know, when is your blood test development going live? When are we going to see it in pharmacies? When are we going to see it in clinics, hospitals, everywhere nationwide? So I have good news and bad news. Okay, let's start with the good news. The good news is these blood tests are available right now from Mindex Sciences. There are seven blood tests that are being offered. So we have a blood test for mood disorders that can tell you whether it's depression or bipolar, severity, future risk, what medications, what nutrients it goes through. Blood test for anxiety, one for stress, one for pain, which is another subjective issue where having something objective is very helpful to patients and doctors, one for suicide risk, one for memory disorders and one for longevity. So we have seven tests currently on the market. We'll have probably three more by next year. We're working very hard on something for psychosis. It's under peer review at the major journal now. We're working hard on something for ADHD and we may have something for alcohol use disorders as well. So the good news, the tests are available. The bad news is that these tests are very expensive, all this technology to do them and so on. And currently, so currently they are self-pay. We're working very hard to get them reimbursed. So we're putting together data and studies and so on to go to Medicare, to go to insurers, to get them reimbursed because we feel very strongly that everybody should have access to them. But currently they're available only as self-paid to patients and doctors who prescribe them, who patients who can afford them. So I think the big mission for us over the next year or two is to move these into being reimbursed and so on. So good news, they're available. Bad news, they're not yet reimbursed. And they need to be. I mean, they should be like national by now, right? This is an amazing development. And international, I mean, we have, you know, people from doctors and patients from other countries who have ordered and received the results of these tests. The issue with reimbursed and so on is that you have to go through a very sort of elaborate, careful process for that. And we've already been working on it for a year. So we have, you know, some initial, we have some codes for the tests, we have some initial pricing decisions for when Medicare approves it and so on. But the, you know, the steps that have to be done take a long time, you know, to get something approved.  We are now sort of, we got more investments and we're going to use those investments to do the necessary groundwork to get these tests reimbursed. So it will take probably a year or two. I'm very conservative. So I say year or two, if it happens sooner, that'd be great, but, you know. That would be amazing. Soon enough, this amazing development should be all around the country. You know, I'm always like glass half full. In the meantime, something else that's very useful and affordable is instead of doing this blood liquid biopsy blood testing, which is still expensive, almost everybody or everybody could do a digital biopsy. They could use the Life and Mind app to really get in a quantitative way, you know, how they're feeling, thinking. And those are sort of very simple state-of-the-art measures that were used to develop the blood tests. So in the meantime, and they are used along with the blood tests for patients who get the blood test. In the meantime, you can just get the app, get a very comprehensive assessment of yourself and keep track of how you feel and think. And then it's like a Fitbit for the mind. You can look, you know, you can take that at the appointment to your therapist or doctor and see, look, these are the numbers. I've been going up and down or I've been stable. Guys, guys download the app. I'm downloading it today right after this interview. Download it. This is just revolutionary. Be part of this. So yes, everyone download the app. What is it called? Can you repeat it? It's called Life and Mind. It's Life and Mind. X Mind. Life and Mind. And it's available on Apple, right? Apple and Google. Both places, yeah. Amazing. So that brings me to our audience segment where we answer your viewer questions. I'm super excited. We have a lot of people in here. So let's begin. Go for it. Our first question is from Miranda. She asks, doctor, when will you guys develop blood tests for schizophrenia? I was diagnosed years ago and this would be very helpful. So thank you for that question. We actually have developed something, but it's currently, we like to publish the data in a peer-reviewed journal before we launch the test on the market. So at this point, the manuscript, the study describing that work is under review at the major peer-reviewed journal. Once it goes through the peer-review process and it's published, then we will launch the test also at MindEx Sciences. Might be six months. Usually at this sort of high level journal, it takes a while to get things published. And we always publish in sort of high visibility, high impact peer-reviewed journals. At that time, we'll launch it at MindEx Sciences and it will be accessible to physicians to order it for their patients. And it doesn't have to be psychiatrist. Any physician, any prescriber can be a physician, assistant nurse practitioner, can order these tests. We wanted to make it easy for people to have access to them since they're so, new and not everybody and every psychiatrist might know about them. So, and also, a lot of primary care doctor or concierge doctors who are the ones who are actually ordering these tests, for them it's natural, it's part of their workflow because when you're an internist or primary care doctor, you order blood tests all the time when you assess somebody. And it's just another report that you have there that helps you do your job, basically. So thank you for that, doctor. And then the next question, and you'll see it on the screen. So Jason asks, doctor, can hypofrontality be proven? Not with blood tests or not so far in terms of what we've developed, but I think there are imaging tests, brain imaging tests that are potentially useful for that. I don't know that they are used as part of routine clinical practice, but they're things like PET scans, PET stands for positive emission tomography, PET scans or maybe functional MRIs and so on that are used in academic settings in research setting or are used by neurologists actually in clinical practice. So that might be a way in which you could get tested to see if the frontal part of your brain is more or less active. Thank you. And then Eric, when asked a very good question, does every blood cell hold meaning to something psychological? No. You have red blood cells and white blood cells.  And the primary job is to do their immune function but they closely reflect and interact with the brain. There is a signal inside them that we are able to measure and track that's relevant to what's happening in the brain but it's not like you have a blood cell for anxiety, a blood cell for depression and so on. You have panels of biomarkers, meaning dozen biomarkers that are best for tracking anxiety, another panel that's good for tracking depression, another for pain and so on. But there are no blood cells that are specific for any disorder. All right, thank you for that, for clarifying. And then the question is on the screen just because people are actually very interested in the app. Could you just rephrase it again? Akram asked, LifexMind is what the app is called. So you could just rephrase it because they're planning on downloading it, yay. That's what it's called, LifexMind, yeah. Perfect, thank you for that question. Then this is a good one. And since you are psychiatrists, I just wanted to see your general thoughts on this. Mr. Sevi asked, I might have ADHD. What is the best way to tell my parents about it? I'm a big believer in the truth. Just tell them what you're experiencing, what you're feeling, how it interferes or not with your daily life, with your school, with your job. And there are ways to get tested for ADHD. The current testing is neuropsychological where you got your school counselor or outside psychologist and you get a battery of test and they can establish fairly well that you have a diagnosis of ADHD. If you use the LifexMind app, we have a very simple assessment there where you can actually track your attention, your ADHD and from day to day. So that sort of gives you an idea if it fluctuates, what events affected and that type of data might be useful as well to your therapist, your clinician and so on. As an aside, before we had the technology and the apps and so on, patients would come to me and I would ask them, how has your mood been over the last three months? And they would have to recall how it was, right? Whereas now they just bring the app and I looked there and it's like in an Apple Watch or Fitbit, you can see exactly the number, the states and so on. So I think for yourself to gain insight for those who help you on this, it's useful to have that data because memory is very fickle and it's colored by your current state, right? Yes, thank you for that doctor. And then someone asked, I suffer from excessive anxiety about the future. I am a student and I have a problem with overthinking the events of my life. Do you have any advice? I think that's a great question because not just as a psychiatrist but you've been a student. So I just wanna know what your advice is to this viewer. And I'm a parent as well. Yeah, amazing. Parent of students. So I'm a mentor of a lot of students over the years, you know, from undergrads to med students, fellow young faculty. Yeah, this is a great question. So what we're noticing nowadays, you know, as professionals and in society in general is this increase in anxiety. It's a huge increase in anxiety, especially in younger people especially in females. And there are a variety of reasons for that. You know, things are moving faster. There's all the social media comparisons, all those things that are happening. We just went through COVID, a lot of things going on. So the best advice is like for anything in order to improve it. So the first step is, you know, acknowledging that there is a problem assessing it with an app or a blood test or by talking to a trained professional and then doing something about it. And the way to do something about it is what we call, I don't want this to sound too fancy, but biopsychosocial, right? So you have to improve, you know, let's start with bio. You have to improve your biology a little bit so you're a bit more resilient to anxiety.  It's very useful in terms of calming your brain and your biology. Trying to take a walk in nature or exercise every day, very useful. Trying to eat, you know, a healthier diet with a lot of fruits and vegetables and not a lot of junk food. All those things make your biology better.  So that's the bio part of dealing with anxiety, just making yourself more resilient. The psychological part is, you know, you break things down into smaller bits and you deal with them one thing at the time instead of worrying about the whole thing. Just trying to like fix the whole issue take it day by day, step by step.  We've all been through that, we've all been through that. And then socially, you know, avoid environments or activities or inputs that make you more anxious whether that means- I know, are toxic, yeah.  Except this YouTube channel, but other social media, you know. Yeah, right, thank you. Watch Psych2Go, but just avoid Instagram every day. Yeah, all those social comparison are putting a lot of fake pressure on young people.  That's what matters and stop comparing yourself with other people. So sort of arranging your social environment in a way that is nurturing and helpful to you as opposed to stressful and anxiety generating. So those are some things you could do even without medications. Now, if it's sort of severe anxiety, short term or medium term, you could also get medications and a trained clinician can help you with that. Our blood test can guide somebody, a doctor who orders them to see, you know, what are the best matches and so on. Definitely, thank you. And then I just wanted to bring up this comment. Dany said, say hi to the doctor for me. And this is gonna be one of our last questions coming up from Jason. Thank you so much for that donation as well. Doctor, should there be more tests in mental health facilities for hypofrontality? If not, why so? So as I said, you know, we don't have yet a blood test for hypofrontality, but there are imaging tests for that.  I think it's a very interesting area that needs to be developed in the future. And if I wasn't doing what I'm doing, which is working on the biological basis with blood tests and so on, you know, this is something else that, you know, I would have been sort of interested in doing, like imaging the brain directly and seeing, you know, what insights we can get there. And they're, you know, good researchers, good clinicians who are trying to do that. So I would be optimistic that in five to 10 years we'll have maybe more portable devices and more inexpensive ones that can be used routinely in clinical care. There's also futuristic stuff going on. There's a company in LA, I think, called Kernel that's made a helmet to measure blood flow in the brain. I have no affiliation with them, so this is not like endorsement or advertisement, but I don't entirely understand the process. But there are a lot of good developments. Science is great. You know, science always moves things forward and makes life better for people, for society and so on. If done properly, I mean, you can, you know, science has also been used for a lot of, you know, not so great things, but true science done properly has always sort of advanced society. So I'm very optimistic about the future and about how some of these things can become part of routine care. And once they become more widespread, they're more affordable because when you do something that scale at volume, the price goes down and then everybody can have access to it. And that's our vision. That's what we want. So like just to not just normalize it so that it's widely available and it can be affordable because often a lot of people don't get, you know, mental health care that they need because it's just so expensive. Yeah, but it's the argument that we're going to make to insurers and so on and employers is that it's much more expensive to hospitalize somebody or have them, you know, they are repeatedly or, you know, not do their job or, you know, flounder around than to get them the proper assessment and treatment right from the beginning. So you always have to make the money argument with payers. Absolutely with harm with all of them because- You all know like it's so great for patients, for their families as a clinician, you know, it's so great to have those tools to help people. When you go to payers and insurers, you also have to make the economic argument. So it's very hard to refine that so that they can see the merit in these things. Which is a sad reflection of our society, but you and your team are doing the best to make our society a better place. So thank you so much for that. And you're also fighting the same good fight. Thank you. With Psych2Go's mission, definitely, that's what we're trying to do to expand mental health education. And so that concludes our, you know, our audience segment with our amazing Psych2Goers. Thank you for your amazing questions. I just wanted to start our final thought segment and I just wanted to know. So do you think, and I know that as a psychiatrist, like you've seen a lot of patients and things have changed over the years because of the advent of social media, do you think that social media is creating like a depression anxiety epidemic among our younger generation? Do you think that the need for blood tests and so much medication for depression is kind of a sign of just this epidemic of the younger generation feeling malaise and feeling jaded about what they see on social media and comparing themselves? Absolutely, 100%, 110%. I think you hit the nail on the head. And I would recommend to your audience to look up this author, Johann J-O-H-A-N, Johann Hari, H-A-R-I, Johann Hari, he wrote three great books. One is about attention and ADHD. Another one is about depression and another one is about addictions. He's done an amazing job of looking at all the potential biological, environmental, social media causes and so on. He's also a great writer and those books are best sellers. He has a couple of TED talks that have, I don't know, 15 million viewers, 20 million viewers. I'll link it in the description. So I would highly recommend that. Again, I have no connection with Johann. I just think he's a good guy who's done a tremendous service to society by his exploration of ADHD, depression and addictions in those three books, that trilogy of books. And my experience, my thoughts, my professional opinion is the same that social media has been extremely detrimental for younger people who are the heaviest users, exactly in the ways that you mentioned. They, it's an addiction. It's a very strong addiction and it distracts them from their daily life. It distracts them from doing things that are more healthy for them, like real world experiences in nature with friends, sports, going outside and so on. And that comparison between yourself as you are and the fake portrayal or somebody has their best self on social media. You don't see them when they're not doing well. You see them when they're- Only when things are going well. That comparison is very depressing, angiogenic, stressful. It's also an avenue for a lot of negativity, for mob mentality, for bullying, for so on. So if I was, I had a magic wand that would delete social media apps, most of them from most people's phones. They are useless and not only useless in the long-term but toxic. Now, you need to socialize with people, but it's very important, but do real connection. Like talk to them in person or talk to them on the phone or text them, meet with them.   Absolutely. And remember guys, a lot of what you see on social media is fake like the doctor mentioned.  Everyone goes through it. No one has a perfect life. So just remember that. And so with that being said, thank you so much for joining us. My pleasure, Michelle. I really enjoyed it and keep up the good fight.  So keep an eye out on developments and you know, a lot of people are working very hard to make mental health better, including our group. Including you. Yes. Thank you very much. Have a nice rest of the day. Absolutely. Thank you to our Psych2Go viewers. We love you. Have a great day. Bye-bye.


And you know what? I would like to ask you one thing. Where do these wild animals live in the jungle, right? Yes, so similarly we all live in a house, right? Yes, and in our house there are different rooms, right? So let us see which all rooms do we have in our house. So here we go. I open this to show you different rooms that we have in our house. This is my house and let me see which all rooms and I will show you which all rooms do I have in my house. What can you see here? In this room there is a bed, there is a computer table. So this is a bedroom. This is my bedroom. Next we go to the kitchen. Mama is cooking something here. So that's the kitchen. Yes, and next room is my bathroom where I take bath to do myself. So this is a bathroom and next living room where I sit and watch TV, have fun, alright? So these are different rooms in my house. So similarly this was about my house. Now in the house there are people in our house. We all live with our brothers, sisters, mummy, daddy, right? So all those are family members. So this again is my house where I have different people living together. So here we go. I have my grandpa, my mother, sister and brother. We all live together as a family in my house.


If you're looking to take a glimpse into early 20th century elegance in Wyoming, look no further than the mansion behind me. Trail End takes a peek at the lifestyle of a self-made Wyoming entrepreneur. Trail End was a dream home of Wyoming Governor and U.S. Senator John Kendrick. After getting his start as a cowboy driving cattle from Texas, Kendrick eventually amassed a ranching empire over 210,000 acres. Kendrick married Yulia Wolfgen, his former employer's daughter. And after 18 years of living on their ranch, the Kendrick's designed and built Trail End, completing the mansion in 1913. Trail End cost $165,000, an exorbitant sum for that time, and included the latest modern conveniences such as an intercom, electric lights, radiant heating, and an elevator. Three separate architects were employed to design the grounds, the mansion, and the interior space. Kendrick was only the second Democrat in Wyoming history to be elected governor. And in 1916, he was Wyoming's first U.S. Senator to be elected by popular vote. Mrs. Kendrick served as President of the Senatorial Women's Club. Kendrick died suddenly in 1933. Eventually, Trail End became a state historic site and is celebrating its 100th anniversary this year. From the University of Wyoming Extension, I'm Brian Sebade, Exploring the Nature of Wyoming.


But how about to the mats number six ranked Grand Rapids wrestling Bemidji let's start at 106 Thunder Hawks Connor Wakefield versus Riley Ferris Wakefield with the two-point take down here He wins by decision 4-2 but all jacks after that 152 Colton Heinrich make quick work of his match gets the following round one over Brendan Moreland Then the 160 the other Heinrich's chance and he followed suit just overpowering for the pin Also in round one and finally to the heavyweights Kayla beam of Bemidji gets the fall to close out the match Bemidji would beat Grand Rapids 57 to 18 if you've enjoyed this segment of Lakeland news Please consider making a tax deductible contribution to Lakeland Public Television


Planning for retirement is an exciting time, but the task of choosing the perfect place for your retirement home can be overwhelming and a bed frightening. Planning ahead can make it happen. I think the number one piece of advice that I could give is to plan ahead. So often we see families and potential residents acting in a crisis mode. So they wait for a major health situation, perhaps the death of their spouse to look into retirement communities or long-term care options. That's the background. And then we didn't want our kids to pick for us. We wanted to choose it for ourselves. And I think that was another important. With thoughtful planning, your transition to retirement can be a very positive experience. Thank you.


Okay. We are in 802.1 ‑‑ sorry, 11 rather. Massive monitoring with Andreas Blanco and Andreas Casoli. Without further ado, gentlemen? Okay. Hi there. We are very glad to be here. It's our first time as speakers. We are ‑‑ thanks. We are from Argentina. We work at core security. And we are here to present our talk, which is 802.11 Massive Monitoring. And what is it about? Well, it's about how to monitor several Wi‑Fi channels at the same time in an easy way. Okay. Here are the outline and introduction. I'm going to say that. Then the main part of our talk will be explained by my partner and consists in approaches, the USB dilemma, and distributed system. Then I'm going to come back to explain why what, which is our last solution. Okay. Let's start. Who is this talk for? If you go around looking for access point or wireless routers in Cillins, for example, well, then this talk is for you. If you no matter what you are doing or where you are and you are trying to monitor wireless traffic, this talk is for you. If you have just a couple of routers at your home, if you like to spend your day watching TCP dam or playing with Warsaw, of course this talk is for you. Okay. Last year, we were doing some research about different protocols. We faced that with the problem with Wi‑Fi Direct. At that point, we realized that when two devices in Wi‑Fi Direct try to establish a connection, they start sending frames on different channels. And of course, we never know on which ones. It sounds trivial, but it wasn't. So at that point, we realized about two things. The first one, we didn't have a good way to do it. And the second one, there were more similar scenarios in which we might want to do that. So we defined the goals of our project and our talk. And here is the goals. Monitor channel hopping traffic such as Wi‑Fi Direct. Monitor access point with auto‑selection channel. There are access points that change the channel in which they are working according if there are so much traffic or other parameters. Monitor multiple access points at the same time. Monitor stations which can be connected to one access point using a channel and later connected to another one using another channel. Monitor multiple locations at the same time. And the last one of our goals, which is not about monitoring, but it's quite related to it, which is in check frames on different channels at the same time. Here, we can see a couple of tables with a list of Wi‑Fi channels. Wi‑Fi has several standards. They are named using letters A, B, G, N, et cetera. Standards can be grouped by the base frequency in which they work. For example, we have some standards that work on 2.4 GHz, other ones on 3.6, and other ones on 5 GHz. So each of these standards has a set of well‑defined frequencies called channels. So we have maybe 50 channels. When we try ‑‑ when everyone tries to monitor traffic, we can do two things. We can do channel hopping, which consists on monitor traffic on one channel, then hop to another one, then hop to another one. Or we can set a specific channel and monitor all the traffic in that channel. We have problems with the two approaches because we are losing a lot of Wi‑Fi traffic. So in this presentation and with our solution, we are trying to solve that problem. Hi, everyone. My name is Andres. Well, I'm going to start talking about the approaches we did. The first one was this one. As you can see there, we have six USB network cards with a food container. It was a really good one. It was a really nice one. Last year I brought it here for the wireless CTF. And it was nice to go through the airport with this. It was really fun. So the first one approach was only six card. The second approach that is one that I have here, I couldn't put it on the table because the cables are too short. But after the talk, you can come and see it. It doesn't go up. So ‑‑ okay. Later. Then you can see it afterwards. But this approach started giving us the idea of if this could scale or if the system was not going to be able to scale. So how we used these two approaches we made. One was using Warshark. Pretty easy to use. You open Warshark and you select all the interfaces you want to monitor. And you are able to use them. Really easy. And the other one was an approach of using Python and some libraries like pick‑up and in‑packet. So we can monitor and do processing of the frames and do some stuff. In this case, we are going to see a quick demo. As it says here, if you don't want your traffic to be displayed during the demo, please stop your Wi‑Fi. Let's hope it works. Okay. So the script is now ‑‑ is setting the wireless cards in different channels. And now we are monitoring for specific packages like pre‑request, DNS, DHCP and HTTP. So it's only a demo to show that it's quite easy to grab a lot of frames and process it with a lot of cards. It's also really fun to see the data going around in the air. But we are going to stop it. So no‑ones feel like bad about it. So what's the problem with these approaches that we made? We started seeing some things that they were not working as we expected. And we started thinking about that USB was the problem. Okay. So the first thing is scalability. Plugging one USB device on your computer is something that everyone knows it works and it works fine. What we are going to start playing and putting a lot of devices in your USB, sometimes it doesn't work like it should. Okay. 11 cards, it shouldn't be a problem. We are not plugging like 100 devices. It's only 11 cards. But the problem is the monitor mode, okay, that we are going to explain now. The thing is we plug 11 cards. We use LS USB command to see that every card is plugged in and it's working. And I'm going to show you another demo now. This demo is really short. We're going to see ‑‑ we're going to load USB module ‑‑ USB module in the Linux kernel to ‑‑ to analyze the USB traffic. And running Warshark again, we're going to be able to see what's going on and what's the problem here. So we go to interface list. We see as the image that we were seeing before, we have all the interfaces and we have the USB ‑‑ USB buses here. So we can monitor the buses. We start monitoring the buses. And we're receiving a lot of USB traffic. We are not now using Warshark or any other software trying to use the network interfaces. But once the network interface is put on monitor mode, it doesn't care. It's going to grab the frames in the air and it's going to send it through USB to the kernel. And there the driver is going to forward it to user land. So the problem here is that the card is not ‑‑ is not filtering the traffic, okay? It's sending all the time the traffic to the USB bus. So that's ‑‑ is the first issue that we find that is bus saturation, okay? Sometimes USB or usually USB devices, they are not using the bus all the time. Like you can use, I don't know, a hard drive or something and you use it sometimes, but it's not constantly sending information through the bus. When you put a monitor mode, a wireless interface in monitor mode, it's sending all the time the information and we start seeing USB saturation. And that is a problem for us. So as I was telling before, the filter is only applied on the kernel, okay? It's not applied on the wireless interface. So we end up having a couple of buses with a lot of people trying to get into the buses and go to the kernel. And we end up with something like this, okay? Something really bad. We're not going to be able to send all the people in the buses. So as I was showing before, as we can see here, I'm not able to show you with the laser, but wireless interface number 16, it says zero packets, okay? That is a problem of bus saturation. We are not receiving any frame from that interface, but the interface is working. And as we know, USB ‑‑ wireless interface is not listening in monitor mode, they receive frames all the time. It's almost impossible if you have devices going around to get zero frames. We always get something, okay? A pre‑request or some frame going around, we are going to catch it. So this is bus saturation problem. And we're going to talk another issue. Later, I'm going to catch up with this issue that I was mentioning, bus saturation, and we're going to talk about how maybe to fix it. Now we are going to talk about non‑removable devices. That is another issue that we have here. Let's say we use all these cards in my laptop to do a pentest or something.  But this is not so true because nowadays computers already come with devices that they are using the USB bus without us knowing about them, okay? So in this case we have a webcam and a Bluetooth device that I don't know if it's clear to see. It's a little bit ‑‑ a little bit small, the letter. But these two devices, they are using the bus number one. So bus number one has already some traffic that we cannot control, okay? So we end ‑‑ again, we have a bus with some people that is already there and we are not able to take them down and they are going to be sending things in the bus. So that is the second issue. This one maybe we could fix it, removing kernel modules or drivers to see if the device stopped talking to us through the USB bus. But I don't know. It's something you have to test with every device. The other thing that is really funny about it is that in this computer we have four USB buses. So we said, okay, we have four USB buses. If we use ‑‑ like we balance the usage, like put some devices on the first bus, some devices on the second bus, we maybe mitigate the USB saturation issue. But it's not so true because when we start plugging devices in every port, we start saying something like this. We plug it card in the USB port number one and we are using bus number one. The same one that was using already my webcam and my Bluetooth device. I plug in the USB port number two. We are using now bus number three. I plug it in the last port I have in the machine. And I already ‑‑ I am again using bus number three. So I have three ports and I can use only two buses. There are two buses are not available. So mitigation of usaturation is not going to be able to do this. And the last issue I'm going to talk about is a power negotiation or power issue with USB devices. When you plug a lot of devices and they are trying to power negotiate with the kernel, the Linux kernel, sometimes we end up with less devices than the ones we plug in. And this is because there is some issue on the Linux kernel that I'm not sure why, because it's sometime now, from now that is going on. But this issue happens not all the time. Sometimes it happens and sometimes it's not. When you plug it, the device doesn't appear there. And oh, okay. I will continue. And when it doesn't appear, if we plug it and unplug the device, it's going to still be not appear. It's like it's blacklisted because kernel says it doesn't negotiate. And we have to reboot the machine to be able to see again that device. So it's really a bad, this issue, we don't, that didn't find a workaround for this.  Well, I'm, okay. I can continue. Yes. Ah, that is really, you have to eat it. It's really good.  So, but these are, it says Havana. What country are these from? Argentina. Argentinian chocolates. They didn't do anything small down there. These things you could probably, anyway. All right. Well, anyway, we are here. Thank you very much. This was a gift to us. So that's great. Where's mine? All right. Are these guys doing a good job? That's awesome. All right, guys. You know how hard it is to get on this stage. So congratulations. So, to DEF CON. And now let me pick up where they left off. Okay, I'm going to have to learn this first. Could I get some help? What? These computer things. I don't know. Excellent description. Thanks. So, so again, as far as I think I said this, I don't know. It was, we were talking about USB issues. We got USB saturation. We got non-removable devices that they are using the bus. We have power issues. And we have, I forget. Okay. It was non-removable devices. We have saturation, power issues, and available ports. USB buses. Okay. We have three ports. We have four buses. And with three ports, we are using only two buses. So they are designing really good these computers. So the solution for some of the problems could be applying a filter on the wireless interface instead of using the filter on the kernel side. So if we do this, we are able to filter only the traffic we are interested in. If someone do some traffic monitoring, you should know that we are not interested always in all the traffic. Sometimes we are interested in some traffic. So putting the filter on the wireless interface, it will be a thing that could work around some of the issues. But doing this is really hard. Really hard. Modifying firmware. If it's open source, okay, we maybe, we can, we can apply some changes and it will be easier. But applying on closed source and applying modifications also in the driver, we have to modify the firmware on the driver. It's really hard and you have to do it for every different card. And it's really a work that is not so good. Sometime ago, we give a talk about modifying the Broadcom wireless drivers, about to put it in monitor mode. And it was only two chipsets and we have to do a lot of work. And every time an update was in iOS again, we have to remodify, reverse again the code. It was really hard work. So it doesn't escalate so good. So we say, okay, we can modify this idea and try to extract of the, of the, of the scheme that we were using. We can say we have a worker or something that is monitoring and injecting frames. We have a manager that is in charge of analyzing or injecting traffic. And we have a bus. In this case, the bus is going to be internet. And we now can work and talk to the worker and say, okay, put this filter and only give me this traffic instead of giving every traffic. This way we can avoid the bus saturation and we can also avoid the other issues we were mentioning before. So how we can do this? We can do this with, we can do this this way. We can have a couple of machines with USB wireless devices or interfaces. And we can have a manager that is in the middle and we can talk to these machines and say, okay, you put in channel six, you put in channel four, now start monitoring, give me only traffic that works with the filter. Now you go inject or do anything. But what is the problem with this is you don't want to have like 11, 11 computers. If you want to get these computers to another site, you have to have like 11 computers in a bag. It's really expensive. It doesn't escalate so good for my pocket. So I don't want to use all that money for this. But nowadays computers are not always computers like we used to know. Like now we have embedded devices everywhere. So we can find some cheap embedded devices that has wireless. So there you go. We have a lot of wireless devices that they are really cheap and we can transport it really easily and we can have a lot of them in my bag and I can go around monitoring or injecting traffic. So using instead of computers we are going to use open WBD devices that run Linux and can work with wireless. Okay? So, well finally we are right to our last approach. We called it YWO, which means wireless workers. And we defined it as a distributed A02.11 monitoring and injecting system which was designed to be simple and scalable in which workers nodes can be managed by a Python framework. Okay, from one site we have routers converted into workers. We are using a custom open WRT. We removed several default packages and we added a new one called worker. We developed that package in C-language. From the other site we have a Python lib that we also designed and developed, sorry. And we communicate what workers and the manager are using a protocol that we design and implement it and it runs over Ethernet. In theory, each kind of router that can support open WRT can be converted into a worker. But we chose three different routers to work. This is the first one. It's a TP-LIN, TL, MR, 30-20. And it has not so much flash nor RAM memory. It has not such a good CPU, but it's cheap and small. We also chose this other kind of router. It's another TP-LIN. The main feature of this kind of router is they have two wireless interfaces. One of them works on 2.4 GHz and the other one on 5 GHz. We designed and implemented YWO to support routers with more than one interface. And this is the last router that we use. It's pretty similar to the first one, but it can work with batteries. So this is important because we can implement the YWO system and do it mobile. From the other side, we have the manager. It's a Python lib. The main features of the lib are looking for workers on the network, getting information about the available interfaces in the workers, start monitoring a worker interface using a BPF filter. And in check frames, from an interface, from a worker interface, sorry. This is a scheme of how is our manager. There are three processes. The main one is the manager service, but we have other two processes which are for handle data frames and management frames. Why we decided to use Ethernet instead of IP? Our protocol runs over Ethernet. Okay, there are several reasons. We always try to keep it simple. IP may need some initial settings. And we also, our original idea was have our own network with the workers. We didn't want to plug workers in an existing network. So using Ethernet, we are able to connect a new worker and it starts immediately working. We also can control better the traffic on the network because we are not using IP and there are several services, several IP services that are not there sending frames. So we have a better control over the network. Then Ethernet has an MQ of 1500 bytes. And it has a very short header. So much shorter than IP. So we have more bytes available for our staff. Doing that we can keep fragmentation low. Well, here we have a couple of devices, a router and a switch. We are using these kind of devices in our POC here. They are of 10 100 megabits per second. And of course with this kind of devices, we are not able to monitor all the traffic with high performance. But the good thing here is that we can get better devices. Like these ones. Here we have a router, a Wi-Fi card and a switch. They are devices that work on one gigabits per second or 10 gigabits per second. And if we get better devices, we are going to get better performance. We are not going to have scalable problems. Okay. Why won't it not a tool? It's a framework. So you can do a lot of things with this framework. For example, you can build a distributed wireless IDS or IPS. You can do traffic analysis. We are getting a lot of traffic. We are getting a lot of traffic from different channels. So our analysis will be more complete unreliable. We can do device tracking. We can put different workers, for example, in a building. And in that way, we will be able to know every time where a device is. And finally, we can use it to perform protocol analysis like we did with Wi-Fi direct. Well, here is our POC. We have 11 routers, a couple of switches, and a USB hub just for power. The main idea behind this POC was have one router per channel in Wi-Fi standard B or G. And to have just one power plug and just one ethnic plug. Well, demo time. Please disable Wi-Fi. Not all of the Wi-Fi, please. So we're going to try this demo. Hope it works fine. So the framework comes with some examples. So if someone wants to use the framework to develop their own tools, it's easy to use these examples as guides. But we are going to bring, we're going to put a lot of information and documentation on the GitHub. Okay. Let's test the Warshark example. The Warshark example is going to find every wireless worker that we found in the network. It's going to search for the best optimal channel assignment. And once we have every channel assigned, we're going to sniff with some BPF filtering. And we are going to receive all the information and send it to Warshark. So we can use a tool that we know. We're going to say that we need the network interface where we are connected to the workers. We put a filter, let's say IP. When we put IP filter, it's going to only, the workers are going to only send me the traffic that they know that it's IP. So the thing they are going to do is search for an encrypted traffic. And then if it's IP, it's going to send it to the manager. So the manager is only going to process this traffic and not all the traffic that is in the air.  So now, as we can see here in the console, in the terminal, we will, manager is starting. He's going to look for workers. Hoping it found every worker we have. So there you go. We find 12 workers and one worker has two interfaces. This is this black one that has two interfaces, one at five sheahertz and the other one at 11. And now we are getting traffic. All this traffic is being captured by the workers and sent through a network encapsulated in internet and the manager is processing these frames. This way, the workers are doing the hard work, like filtering all the traffic and the manager is only processing the traffic he wants in every channel we find. So if someone now says, okay, I'm going to change channel or now someone plugs a new access point there, we're going to receive that traffic. Because we are monitoring 11 channels and one channel at five sheahertz. So we can see here, we have radio tap information and we can see that we receive frames in channel 11. Here we can see the channel. This is in five sheahertz. And we can see channel 11. It looks like there are two wireless devices here or two wireless access points that one is in five sheahertz and the other one is in channel 11 of 2.4. So we can now process any frame that is in there. So we have other examples, like for example, let me see. We can copy something. This example is going to find, it's going to say the workers to monitor only pre-request on every channel and then every time they see a pre-request, it's going to inject a pre-response. So we have a karma attack on every channel. There you go. So, well, future work. We think of adding IP support. We, original idea wasn't that, but we know that it's important in some scenarios. We are thinking of building new open WRT frameworks. We have already released this framework with some code examples and frameworks. We are thinking of building more frameworks and create more code examples. And finally we are thinking of adding interaction with some well-known tools. Well, that's all here where you can find the YWO project, our emails and our Twitter if you want contact us. That's all. Thank you so much. It's very interesting. Any question? Airbase works from one to one. It's like, it works like you have only one instance. For doing that, we should modify like air crack code to make it like work from one manager to multiple workers. We see a little bit of the code, but we wanted something that is also in Python so it could be a multi-platform. We will now, the manager works on Windows, Mac, Linux. It works everywhere because the manager is right in Python. So we thought about it, but we end up making a project. Thanks for your question and because you did the question, the first question, you won a WeWO worker and other advice. So