If you want to pump your body and expand your mind, there's only one place to go. Mind pump with your hosts, Sal DeStefano, Adam Schaefer, and Justin Andrews. In this episode of Mind Pump, for the first 24 minutes, me and my fearless co-hosts have some fun conversations. We are without fear. We talk about my Mexican staircase surprise. It's exactly how it sounds. I did some staircase surfing, and my ankle looks awesome because of it. We talk about the availability of testosterone in Mexico. Why aren't there more buffed Mexicans in Mexico? It's strange. I saw steroids all over the place. We talk about testosterone resistance. Remember, you heard it here first, I think. Before TNation. Yeah, we'll see what happens. And then... That's a freebie. Doug actually buys us some surprises from Thrive Market. I like this. This is the new segment. Once a week, Doug's going to drop us some gifts. It's pretty cool. Doug V. Elf. Thrive Market is one of our favorite of all-time sponsors. You can buy all kinds of non-GMO organic products, both the products that you eat, products you use on your skin, your hair, under your arms, all kinds of different things. Tongue scrapers. Yeah. That's what Doug got us. Gave it away. At prices that you won't find... I'm not even exaggerating. You won't find anywhere. Now, normally, when you get on ThriveMarket.com, you have to pay for a membership to get all these deals and stuff like that, but we got the hookup for you. This is what you do. Go to ThriveMarket.com forward slash mine pump. Here's what you're going to get, a one-month free membership, $20 off your first three orders of $49 or more, plus free shipping. You just can't lose with this particular deal. Then we get into the questions. The first question was, what do we think about plant sterols like beta ecti-sterone? Weird question. Actually, steroids found in plants and insects. Broccoli steroids. I saw Spider-Man. He got really strong from the spider, so... Maybe Puppeye was right with that spinach. We'll see what happens. The next question was, bar exercise classes, Pilates, stuff like that. They say that the programming creates long, lean muscles. Is that true or is it bullshit, the latter? Then the next question was, what programming did Adam use during his show prep? Some of you may not know that Adam is an IFBB professional physique competitor, aka Bikini competitor. How did his training evolve from his first show to his last? Now nobody wants to buy the program. Just joking. Actually, if you look at Adam's physique from his first show to his last show, you see this progression, which is probably why this person asked this particular question. Adam did use programming that's similar to maps, aesthetic, more on that later on. The final question was, what are our thoughts on performance enhancing drugs in sports and have we watched the documentary Icarus, which you can find on Netflix? Also, now I just mentioned Maps Aesthetic. We like to call it Maps Black. That's the color of the Maps logo in the program. Now Maps Aesthetic is a program that we designed around and for stage presentation athletes. Physique competitors, bodybuilders, physique competitors, or even people who just want to shape and sculpt their body. Building muscle is difficult, but getting the body to look more symmetrical and balanced with more muscle is even more difficult. You definitely can look good by building more muscle, but there's always that look. There's that look that bodybuilders get, that physique competitors can get, that bikini competitors get, where they have this interesting balance of delts and arms and chest and back and glutes and lower body and it just looks attractive, it looks well put together. Maps Aesthetic is a program designed around that to maximize muscle growth, but to also maximize symmetry and it's very individualized, so you follow the program and you individualize it yourself based on your own body part weaknesses. The program comes with video demos, workout blueprints, it's all complete. The total program lasts about three months long. It's very effective. You can find it at mindpumpmedia.com. It feels weird to be back in here. I'm going to tell you what. Hello. Hello, you. Yeah. My voice is the same. There you are. My voice is the same.  They look dark. You do. Sexy. You do. Yeah. I was in, I don't know, the listeners don't know, right? I went to Mexico. I was building schools for children. No, you weren't.  I was on vacation. I was on vacation. I was trying to score points, dude.  I was saving children.  No, I went on vacation in Cabo. Curing polio. San Lucas went with some good friends of ours and almost died. You guys know that I almost died in Cabo? Well, we see the ankle. Almost died. Okay. Yeah. Let's hear this story because I don't know. Kermit's got a limb. We probably just slipped in the shower. So every day. Let's be honest, yeah. Every day we would go work out at the gym. A dramatic story, by the way. At the hotel gym.  They had a cold dip. So it was pretty cool, right? And it's a great way to feel better the day after heavy drinking. So one day in particular, we wake up and that night, the night before, we had gone pretty hard. So Jess was a little tired and she's like, you know, I'm just going to chill and read a little bit by the pool.  So I said, cool, that's cool. So I went over there, had a great workout and Caldwell's humid.   My left foot stayed behind. So I sit back. I can already see it. It's fine. I go back into what is, what look like a hurdler stretch and just, and just go, go, go, go all the way down the stairs like that. And then my, and I turned sideways because I was like, this isn't in my mind while this is happening. I'm like, for sure.  This is how it starts, man. So I turned sideways, I turned sideways, went on my right side.  Both flip flops. Down the stairs. Nobody saw me. Oh, no one was around. No dude. Cause I stopped and then I just sat there.  Yeah. And I just sat there cause I'm like, something broke. How long, how long until like sunk in that, oh, that really hurt. So I sat there for probably three or four minutes and, uh, you know, it's like if I was a kid, I would have been crying in the corner of the stairs, you know, waiting for someone to come find me. But I just sat there and I'm just, oh, I'm just sitting there and I'm looking up the stairs. There's nobody there looking down the stairs. No one there. My flip flops are way down the stairs and I'm just, I'm afraid to move anything cause I'm pretty sure something's fucked and I'm in Mexico and something's fucked, right?  Oh man. Oh, poor you.  And my arm was kind of bruised, start moving my foot around like, oh shit, that doesn't feel right, but it's not really that bad. So believe it or not, I, it was hurt, but it wasn't, it didn't seem super bad. So I was just, I was walking around on it that day. So I walked downstairs, go to the pool, tell everybody about it. Everybody has a great laugh on my expense. I started drinking. I'm like, whatever it seems like, I might have twisted it, but we'll see what happens, bro. That, that night started like a beach ball. Oh, it started inflating dude. And then I, yeah, I went to bed and I woke up the next day and I had, I had the ankle and foot of an obese diabetic. You know what I mean? You know, I guess it was swollen in purple. Yeah. Yeah, it didn't look good at all. So that was it. And that was the second to last day that I was there. Did it hinder anything you guys were planning to do? Or are you still not? Yeah, we planned on sitting out by the pool and drinking.  That was cool. The whole time. But it wasn't sure if you guys are on one of your adventure trips. But I don't think, I don't think I tore anything, dude.  I got swelling and bruising. It looks like a level one or two sprain. Is that what it is? Yeah. You're an expert.  I was spraying my ankle probably a hundred times. So in basketball, it's like, it's like just to happens all the time. Level one, like you'll get some swelling. That could have been a level two. Level three, you would, you would have to be on crutches. Like it's not bad. Like, no, my foot got pretty gnarly. And there was bruising down the outside of my foot, you know, here a little bit by my toes and then here on the inside of my ankle. That's it. So I guess you're going to live in prime, I guess I'm pretty strong. A sprained ankle, though, man, could be worse than a broken ankle, man. Like when you, if you go, if all three of those ligaments go, it's takes a long time. Oh, yeah, it's gnarly. I mean, I was on crutches for I was, I remember being on crutches for my ankle as long as I was for my torn ACL and MCL. Really? Yeah. It was it's that bad. Damn, if that stresses me.  That's depressing. Mine went all the way up to my shin. My whole foot was purple. It was like it was the grossest thing I've ever seen. Yeah. It was worse than anything.  Because I was I was doing good with my foot and ankle mobility. And now you'll be effective. You can put weight and pressure on it already. It's like, you're going to be okay.  You know what I mean? Oh, yeah, that could be weird, man. I've never, I've never sprayed my head. It could all be broken, but I just don't, I don't feel it. It's so tough. You know, here's the other thing about Mexico that's crazy. So I'm in Mexico. Where do you guys stay at? What was it called? Pueblo Bonita Pacifica. You were at Pueblo Bonita? Yeah.  That's above is where the the Monte Cristos are. The Monte Cristos. The Monte Cristos States above you. So were you on the what the what is it? Peach or white building? What color was it? I think it was it wasn't sunset. It was I think it was white, maybe. Yeah, I don't remember. There's a lot of alcohol, dude.  We drank a lot. And then we went to the the beach area of another because our beach was totally blocked off. And by the way, you can't swim in Cabo at all. Before you can't actually in some areas. But where we were, the waves were massive. So there was no swimming in the beach. There was no one out there. But then we went to another area where there was swimming in the beach. We went there and that's when I got offered every drug known to man. Yeah, right away. Well, that's on the main where the main beaches, right? We're lovers, lovers. Like chocolates and then heroin. No, they escalate so quickly. Yeah, dude walks up to me. He's like cigar. And I'm like, no. And he's like he goes, would you like some blow? I'm like, Jesus Christ, there's a few levels that you skip. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's like a totem pole. Yeah, the drugs. And you went right to the top. I did buy some weed on the beach of Mexico. Oh, God, it's so terrible what you buy from those guys. I know.  It's like dirt stepped on like six times. Oh, $50. Terrier, long spot. It's garbage. But we go into town and we're walking around in town, you know, doing some shopping and stuff like that. And then you ever go into the pharmacies in Mexico? Oh, yeah, all the time. Bro, it's funny. It's so funny. I go in there and right to my left, there's a glass case of anabolic steroids.  So if I'm ever like between like testosterone shots, I try and time it while I'm in Mexico so I can get what about it because they're legit. They're real good over here.   You're getting the pure pharmaceutical stuff.  They had like Deca, they had testosterone. They had, you know, different kinds like prima bolein. Isn't it? You know what I find fascinating? Reloads. Is that anybody can buy that and you don't see any buff people walking around? That's what I thought. That is exactly. There should be a lot of like juice heads around here. There isn't. No, no, no, no, there's no. Why? Well, because I think what people don't realize is that it's not that easy. There's no market there. Well, no, it's just to that. Like you just the guys that are really into that like would have been buff guys anyways and they take it and they're super buff, right?  I think that. You'd have to lift weight. Or I'll say everybody in Mexico would probably be jacked. Dude, I was just reading them. I was sitting there reading all of them and I was, you know, just because I'm curious.   Is Sal going to take some? Oh, you guys were. I'm like, no, I'm just reading. You guys were with friends? Yeah, we were friends. Oh, I thought it was just the two of you.  Great people. Anything celebrating or was it just to get out? It was just, they go every year. Oh, okay. So they invited us to go. Same spot every year or is it different? This is the spot that they go to. And we had a great time with them. We had a really, really good time. Good people. Yeah, I enjoyed ourselves quite a bit. So I had a lot of fun. I also did some great thinking. You know, one of the things about going on vacations that you don't do much. It clears your mind so much. You can sit there and think and I had some interesting kind of revelations. They're not really revelations, but you know, sometimes you think something for a while, but you don't like completely put it together until you think about it a few times in a row or whatever and really kind of mull it over. Well, here's something that's very interesting to me. So we've talked now on the podcast a few times about HPA axis dysfunction. Those were the hypothalamus, pituitary and adrenals. You know, they communicate to each other and when one is off, the other two try to compensate and you get all kinds of different symptoms. They've called it adrenal fatigue. Yeah, they used to call it adrenal fatigue, but that's not really an accurate name because the adrenals don't stop producing their, you know, adrenal hormones. We talked about cortisol resistance, which is not that different from insulin resistance. And I'm thinking to myself as I'm sitting there, I'm like, you know, the body can be, can, it's pretty obvious to me, the body can become resistant to anything that it gets exposed to a lot of, right? So then I started thinking about body builders and their experiences with anabolic steroids.  After a while, these guys are taking a lot of gear. The body stops responding. They take the same amount that they've been taking. And all of a sudden. That's why they keep going up. Do you know what's happening with them? Yeah, they're getting adapted to it, bro. Testosterone resistance. For sure. They're getting testosterone resistance. I can tell you firsthand I've felt it. Like the difference between like, so like even like my therapeutic dose that I take, like I don't feel it. I don't feel anything. I don't get like, oh, I know I'm on testosterone. Not at all. Like it's just enough to keep me norm. And if I want that feeling, I have to go to a higher dose. And then when I go to a higher dose, it's only about six, eight weeks where I feel that higher dose before you have to go. It feels like you have to go to a higher dose to get that same. If you're, and this is what happens, these guys end up chasing that feeling. Like anybody who's ever- Just by upping the dose. Right, because if anyone's ever, if anyone's ever messed with testosterone, the first time you take it is unreal. I mean, it's, you feel super human.  By the time that stuff gets into your system, depending on what you're using, how fast acting is, when that stuff kicks in, there is no doubt like it is working.  If you're someone who takes testosterone a lot, over like it, your body gets very- No, you're getting, you're literally getting testosterone resistance to where your body's down-regulating the androgen receptors, which is part of one of the, it's gotta be, because here's the thing, when you go off steroids, you go through this crash, right? And the way we talk about this crash is your body stops producing testosterone.  And one of the remedies to that, or it's not really a remedy, but kind of blunts those effects or mitigates those effect is, you go on something like HCG or- Nolvidex or something to try and, you know, boost your own natural testosterone backup. But that's not the whole thing.  So part of the approach- This is why- May be to up-regulate those receptors. How? I think that may be one of the ways that Nolvidex helps. I don't think it's necessarily boosting its testosterone as much as its up-regulating, excuse me, androgen receptors. But something else I was thinking about that may be a good thing for that would be to- Well, clomid is the one that signals the brain to tell your body to start producing it back up. It's gonna stop the Nolvidex and stop from the estrogen from aromatizing. And then the HCG is gonna help kickstart it. So that's kind of the- But, you know, clomid- I'm going through this right now. So yeah, yeah, I've been off a testosterone for, I'm coming on my sixth or seventh week now. And I do this like once a year and just try and see if I can completely come off and run HCG, clomid, Nolvidex because each year I feel like I get a little more closer to figuring my body out and finding natural ways to do that. And through everything, everything from meditation to how I'm lifting, I'm not hammering my body, I'm just kind of listening to it, trying to figure it out, my diet with higher fats, things like this of all, I've started to put together over years.  But it's a tough time, man. It's rough right now for me. I mean, and my girl too, for sure.  My motivation to lift right now is really, really bad. Like it's just, I have no... So I was thinking about that. Like how would you up-regulate those receptors? There's a supplement that has been shown in some studies that might help. Carnitine tartrate, I believe, if I'm not mistaken, is one of them. But here's another thing you can do. When you dramatically increase your cholesterol intake from food, that in a very short period of time should help up-regulate some of those receptors and increase how your central nervous system reacts to exercise and maybe increase testosterone levels indirectly as well. So I'm wondering if that might be a good thing to do. It doesn't last very long. I know when I boost my cholesterol intake, I have like a strength boost that lasts about two weeks or so, two or three weeks. And then it starts to drop down. You know what I'll do for you, and I'm not doing it right now, is I'll track my cholesterol. I just don't because I know that I'm consistently eating eggs and butter and steak so I'm getting a lot of foods that are high in cholesterol, but I don't track and I'm definitely one who says, if you're gonna really talk about this, you need to be able to pay attention and see that stuff. So I'll start tracking and see. Like get away up there, you know what I mean? Well, what I need to do is be really moderate for a while because I already intermittently eat all those foods pretty regularly. So what I need to do- Like how many eggs would you eat in a day, four or five? Yeah, four or five eggs, at least a steak, normally a day, at least a meal or two that has butter in there. So I would double the yolks, just see what happens with that. Just double the yolks and see how you feel, and just do it for a short period of time. You think that's the easiest and quickest way for me to boost it? That or chicken liver. The chicken liver is very high in cholesterol. It's just a lot of people don't like the taste. Yeah, I don't know, it just doesn't sound good to me. It sounds fun. I blend them. I think I'd rather go the egg yolk route. Blend those fuckers and drink it. But yeah, no, this is something I've been going through for a while. I've been coming down since the last time that I think you talked to your physician and I told you, tell your buddy to go really slow.  See if you can get it all, your natural levels to be back to normal.  So knowing how the body kind of reacts to hormones develops resistance to them. Even because you're like with insulin resistance, you have to get to a certain point before they can test you and find it. But before you get to that point, you are developing resistance to this insulin. It's not like it goes from normal to bad. There's a process and it's hard to test, but there are some symptoms. I'm wondering if this happens to women when they're on birth control, just being exposed to hormones all the time. That would make sense. If their body just loses its sensitivity to these hormones and why anecdotally, I've had so many female clients that when they go off of birth control, some of them will take like years to feel normal. After you had this epiphany, did you start to do some research? Did you start diving into some shit? You know, I started reading a little bit, but testosterone resistance isn't something that... I know there's not a lot of stuff out there. No, although I bet you T-Nation will do an article on it now. What's up fellas? There's some free content for you. Yeah, you heard it here first. But I wouldn't be surprised. I wouldn't because the body responds to anything and everything that way by first reducing its own production and by second reducing the way that the body reacts to it by downregulating receptors and stuff like that. Well, anecdotally speaking, 100% I know I felt it. Like you can tell a difference. Your bodybuilders been talking about this for years. Right, somebody who's been taking testosterone for a long time, there is definitely... And that is part of what always motivates me because someone asked me out of the day, why don't I understand why come off if you know that your testosterone levels are so low and they're on the floor? Why wouldn't you just stay on your moderate dose? I'm like, well, I don't want to have to do that for the rest of my life. So there's a part of me that always wants to kind of play with that and see if I can naturally boost it up there and feel good and then if I can't, then I'm gonna go back. But absolutely over the years of taking it, I've seen a huge difference. And I would assume that even testosterone replacement therapy, if you take enough to be at like what they would consider normal levels, I would even think that that would promote like some level of testosterone resistance over natural testosterone only because natural testosterone fluctuates so much. Whereas testosterone, you know, whether it's injection or cream or pellets, it kind of stays high all the time. You know what would be super fun to talk to you about this is Mark, our buddy Mark. Cause I know he really, really knows like his testosterone really well. And I think what I think what's happening right now is a combination of what you're saying and because so many people are making on the black market, it's almost impossible to find like pharmaceutical testosterone unless you're going to an actual doctor and getting it prescribed.  So what would be interesting is what are, if you're, if you're watering it down in combination with what you're saying. So now you've got these people are having to take more and more. Well, what are you mixing it? What else is in there that you're having to take an abundance of now just to get that same testosterone feeling because of the combination of potentially it being watered down and then also down regular. Yeah, you don't know. Right. It's hard to judge. Right, right. Yeah, that'd be a fun one to talk to about. We talked about doing a thing on his show. I don't know if he's still doing the in the gray podcast. Yeah, I think so. Is he still doing it? Mm-hmm. Yeah. He hasn't invited us on. Hey, what's up Mark? Do you miss? Shout out to Mark. Whatever. Call us up, bro. Yeah. Let's talk some testosterone. All right, cool. What do we got here, Doug? Bring on the bird. All right, gentlemen, we got some surprises here for you.  Oh, he's got a box. I've got a box. Oh, is this our thrive gift? Thrive market. Oh. Well, it's part of a gift and it's part of what we ordered on a previous show. So I'm gonna open this thing up. Did you add some stuff to our order, Doug? Yeah, I've ordered, added a couple things here. Okay. Which is what you got for us here. What you got? Let's see what's in our thrive market order of the day. All right, well. Yeah. It is Justin's beef jerky. Of course. He needs more meat like I need a hole in the head. All right, this is Sal's birchbeckers. Oh, my pancake mix. Oh, yeah, yeah. Gluten-free, hold on. Spicy. Oh, there's, one is protein and one is not protein. Adam gets the protein. Protein for me. I obviously have a lot more muscle. You gotta read the ingredients. I obviously have a lot more muscle.  All right, we got some macadamias for the studio here. We got both Royal Hawaiian and we got thrive market brands so we can try them out side by side. Are they both salted? Actually, the thrive market are not. Oh, well. So that's gonna change the flavor. All I need is water to mix these pancakes. Perfect comparison. Yeah, all you need is water for the pancakes. What? I told you, dude, birch bender pancake makes thrive market.  Grass-fed. I got my milk-adamia. Oh, your milk-adamia milk, yeah. Wow, I'm super interested. And I got one more thing for all of you. You're gonna find this to be this very unusual gift. Oh.  Thrive is not. Because I'm taking it first. Thrive market doesn't... I get it first.  Adam just took it one in the face. Adam's the athlete.  What is this? A tongue cleaner. Tongue cleaner. Yeah, tongue cleaner. Have you ever used one of these before? No. They sell tongue cleaners there?  So I... Wait a minute, hold on a second.   So I did it in orthodontist... Or orthodontist chick for a long time.  I had all these cool toys, and I'll tell you what, it's gonna gross you out the first time you do it. Really?  So in the morning, wake up, scrape your tongue, and you'll be shocked. Especially if you'd garbage the night before.   No, you just scrape it like this. You just scrape it gently. Just like that? Yeah. You drag it across the top of your tongue and... And then flick it at your friend? And by the way, your breath will be better too. Not that I'm saying anything. Thanks. You're inferring, it's all right. Did you do this, Doug, for Sal, and you just got all three of us this way so you wouldn't make him feel bad? Yeah, that's how you do it. He's changing his filter all the time. I'm like, oh, I see you're done. His keto breath over there? My tongue definitely is filthy. Yeah. Who knows where it's been? I didn't realize it had stuff like this too, huh? Thrive Market has cool shows. Oh, yeah, they do. That's great. Dude, so actually when I went to Cabo... Dr. Travelling. It's called Dr. Tom. So when I went to Cabo... Don't use mine. No, I'm not going to use your Cabo. Do not share... Although we probably have the same STDs by now. I went to... When I was in Cabo, my cousin's friends, they all listened to the show and they all started shopping at Thrive Market and they were all... I swear to God, bro, it was like a two-hour conversation. How much money they're saving now. So much stuff. Yeah, so thanks, Doug, for the tongue cleaners. Yeah, yeah, yeah, I like that. I appreciate it. I own three of them. I like this new segment that we're going to do. I like this Christmas every week. Buy us some more stuff. Yeah. All right, now we can have the bird. Bring on the bird. Bring it on. This quiz brought to you by Organifi. For those days you fall short on getting your organic veggies or whole food nutrition, Organifi fills the gap with laboratory-tested certified organic superfoods to help give your health and performance the added edge. Try Organifi totally risk-free for 60 days by going to Organifi.com. That's O-R-G-A-N-I-F-I.com and use a coupon code MINEPOMP for 20% off at checkout. Our first question is from Tristanator. Thoughts on plant sterols like beta-ecti-steroid? Are you guys familiar with plant sterols? No, I don't even know. So, sterols are plant steroids, believe it or not. Now, steroid is a class of molecule. Doesn't necessarily mean it's like testosterone. Cholesterol, for example, is a steroid molecule. But ecti-sterones are very interesting. They are hormones that are found in insects and they do things like promote the process of molting. They are found in some plants. And so people, these particular hormones and compounds have been advertised and promoted as muscle-building supplements for a little while now. And it sounds like bullshit, right? It sounds like, oh, fuck, plant. Just because it's a sterol, now we're gonna start taking it, like, you know. It's like a leaf. Dude, so here's the trippy part. If you look up the research on ecti-steroid, you're not gonna find a whole lot, but you will find some Soviet-era studies that were done on ecti-steroids because during those periods of time when the Soviet Union existed, they had invested a lot of money in kind of hacking how their athletes could perform. And so they did lots of studies on hormones, lots of studies on diet, training, and all kinds of weird crazy compounds. And they found that ecti-steroids, ecti-sterones or ecti-steroids promoted, I'm not exaggerating, I'm not lying here, on a dose-per-dose basis, similar results to common anabolic steroid-like.  These are what the studies say. Well, yeah, well, go back to the words you just used. Come on, what does that mean? Well, when you read the studies, hold on, they're very, very interesting, and we're talking about- Results that are similar to?  I felt wrong that day. What did I have to say? No, it's not the same. Mine's darker. More impressive. It is not the same. A lot more impressive, we know. No, in terms of muscle protein synthesis, recovery, all these interesting things, when there are animal studies done on ecti-steroids, and when they give them to animals, animals predictably will put on more weight, burn more body fat, like every single time. They give, there's animal studies done on sheep, mice, and all kinds of stuff. Now, here's where it gets kind of fuzzy. Humans don't have a receptor. Those are so huge. I don't, you know, that's interesting. I don't know. Maybe this, maybe it's their genes, but anyhow, they, with humans don't have a receptor that this attaches to, so we don't know how this works in humans, but- If it doesn't have a receptor attached to it, then it's basically worthless. We don't know, we don't know. So there isn't a ecti-steroid receptor, but it's working through different mechanisms because when ecti-steroids are given to humans, you do see some interesting results. Greater strength gain increases the production of keratin. So skin, nails, and hair tend to grow faster. Cholesterol levels seem to be more balanced. Increased libido is one of those things. Now, anecdotally, you hear a lot of this stuff for ecti-steroids. The reason why I picked this question is because I have personal experience taking ecti-steroid supplements. The problem with ecti-steroid supplements is there's a lot of bullshit out there. The vast majority, my belief is the vast majority of the supplements that are out there that are advertising as ecti-steroids don't have anything in them. But back in the day, when I'd find some of these and I'd use them, Doug will tell you, Doug's tried them himself. Remember, Doug, when I used to have you take them as a client? Was those ecti-steroids or steroids? I forgot. Well, they're actually called ecti-steroids as well, but you remember we'd take them, right? And you would notice- Yeah, no, I'd notice a boost from that. Yeah, you get strength and more muscle. Very interesting. It's a fascinating area of supplements that I think you need to do a lot of research on before. Okay, so what are we seeing most commonly in right now?  Well, no, or what we do is we take other plants that are sound similar or like it and we put it in some powder and then we say it's gonna build all this muscle and in reality, like it's got point, whatever, and you pixie dust it in there. So where do we see this? Like what supplement do I see this in? They'll be called either ecti-steroid, beta ecti-steroid, turquesterone is another one. I can't think of any others, but there's different types of ecti-steroids. The two most studied are ecti-steroid and turquesterone. Turquesterone is harder to find. I have yet to try any of that, but- Do you have a brand or an example you can give me? The one I used to take, they don't make anymore and it was by Thermolife and they don't make it anymore. So no, I don't have any brand that I can recommend.   What are the potential side effects? So here's what I noticed. You can turn into a vegetable. Yeah, you start to grow insect arms. Like weird, I have flowers under my armpits. You know, here's the funny thing. I personally never noticed any side effects other than my appetite would increase. I'd sleep hard as hell. So I would sleep, I'd get lots of vivid dreams and I'd sleep really hard. And that's pretty much it. Notice my fingernails would grow really fast and weird stuff like that, but I didn't notice anything else. But when I did take it, I would take it very conservatively. So I didn't go long- Where in nature would we find this? Where would I find this in nature? Plants, certain plants will contain them. No, I don't. I know those particular ones that have higher amounts.  No. It's something I'd have to go- I think you'd have to consume a lot of plant material to get the effective dose of ectosterone. So supplementing it would be the best way to get it. It's not a magic bullet or anything like that.  It's very fascinating. It is fascinating, but then when you say that it makes me always go like, man, it's just weird to me how everything that we go like Justin was saying that we over concentrate just never seems to be ideal for the body. Like if it's found in nature, like in there's plants that actually- It's perfectly balanced. Right, exactly. Eating it in nature when you wherever you find it, probably not a bad idea at all. Probably has some good health benefits and stuff.  May make us feel it a little bit, but may not be the best idea. It seems to have some anabolic, I mean, in the studies with animals it's got anabolic effects, some androgenic effects. So I would assume that the side effects would involve potential things like prostate enlargement or androgenic alopecia, which is hair loss. I would assume, right? But I don't know, I don't know because the studies don't really, there's not a lot of science done on it. Now there was one study done on athletes that showed no results whatsoever. So the athletes that took it didn't get anything. But then there's other studies that show that it actually has an effect.  So it's very, very interesting, but it's one of those things like you find things that are in plants and sometimes they have these interesting effects in the body. Not sure if they're entirely good, but like I said, I had some pretty interesting effects from it. Next question is from Lauren Chipley. Bar exercises say their programming creates long and lean muscles, is that correct? No. Long and lean. Not at all. It's an old marketing term. It's been a while since we talked about that, huh? Yeah. I guess we haven't brought that up in a long time. Pilates is known for this, bar is known for this, yoga is known for saying this. Your muscles do not change in size and length. They are still, there's an origin. You mean in length, they can change the size, but. Yeah, yeah, no, they do not, did I say size? They do not change in length, right? So the origin and insertion of a muscle does not ever change and it would need to if it were to actually shorten or lengthen, so. Yeah. Just because you're in better posture, you feel like you have a longer arm span or something like that, but it's really just, it's a matter of function. Like your muscles don't get longer. It's a marketing term. It is, here's what I think it comes from. Long lean models, they look lean and thin. So bar or Pilates or those type of exercise programs. Ballerinas. Yeah, they have the roots in training systems that were designed for dancers. So ballet, for example, you know, ballet, high level ballerinas will train with exercise programming that looks similar or at least bar comes from that type of training program. Now, to the average person, if I say a ballerina, you think of these high level, you know, dancers and what do they look like? Right. They look tall. They have tall posture. They have long and lean kind of bodies. Lean and tone. They have these really amazing lines when they point their toes and extend their arms and the way they walk them.  No, it's not. What you have to understand is that the highest level of any competitive sport or art, not only do you have excellent training and diet and all that stuff, but you also have what's called, what is it called? I can't remember the term of it. Basically, what it basically means is you have this self-selection, yeah, there you go, the democratization of athletes. In other words, at that level, the people who are born and are genetically, you know, just designed. Gifted in a certain direction. They tend to flock towards these sports. And so you end up with like swimmers at high levels who have long torsos and short legs and long arms and flat rib cage, or you have long distance runners who have short torsos and long legs and skinny bodies and high muscle insertions. Or you have bodybuilders with long muscle insertions and small waist and wide shoulders. Like training in these ways won't change your structure or your muscles or your insertions and origins.    He's just, it's just not gonna happen for him. I would like to put that to the test.  I think this is important too to talk about because we, you know, we were in the neighborhood lately and we did a bar class, right? Is that what it was? It was a bar class. Yeah, way more challenging than we thought. Oh yeah, yeah. And it actually roasted us, right? And it was these little small pumping and isolation movements, right? So most of us do not train 50 to 100 reps for a small movement or do a lot of isolation stuff. At least eliminate all rest is all they did.  This must be really working. And just because something is really, really challenging for you doesn't mean that it's gonna be the most beneficial for what you're looking for, right? And if you're looking for fat loss and building muscle, bar, Pilates, and I know I'm gonna offend people that are taking those classes, it's not ideal. It's not...  And it's not to say that it doesn't have other great benefits. I mean, there are some things that are beneficial to do that type of training. But what I find and what I've found in the years of training is that clients that I would get that took that class, I would say, okay, well, what is your goal?  I said, okay, well, let's talk about what lean and tone means, okay? So lean means we reduce as much body fat as possible and tone means we build some muscle because that's all that it is.  Like it's just like let's lean and tone. Well, lean and tone means lose body fat, build muscle. And what are the most efficient ways to do that? I mean, it's definitely not bar. No, no. It's definitely not Pilates. No, nothing at all can compete with traditional resistance training with weights for sculpting, toning, building, whatever you wanna call it, the muscle. Now bar classes and Pilates classes, you can develop some good stability in the particular range of movement.  If you plan on dancing, if you plan on doing ballet and stuff like that, you definitely wanna exercise that way. The biggest knock that I have on all those types, all those training modalities is that there is no real phasing or periodization built into it. So no matter how amazing- It's like an experience. Because you know, there's someone listening right now is like, I don't know what they're talking about because I started that bar class and I'm in the best shape of my life that I've ever been in, and that's awesome. And that could have been, that could have worked for you like it could have got you in the best shape you've ever been in, but if you wanted to continue to progress beyond that, which you absolutely can, you would need to phase out of that way of training. Cause your body, after about six weeks of doing it, four to six weeks of doing those classes, you're pretty damn efficient at it. Remember the first day you walked into it, how much it smashed you, and then remember what it feels like now six weeks later after you've been doing it three days a week, your body's become very efficient. It's no longer changing from it. Sure, it's helping keeping stamina up. Sure, it helps keep some flexibility up, makes your core strong. I see a lot of overuse issues with, so I have a trained clients who do a lot of these classes. And I see lots of hip flexor issues because it's a lot of hip flexor, lots of that single leg kind of movement, pumping type of stuff. I would see very poor strength in certain ranges of motion. So if I put them in a full squat, or if I'd have them do a deadlift, their strength would just kind of break down. And I would see a lot of the symptoms or similar symptoms, like I would see with people who do too much cardio. So I would see kind of this adaptive response from metabolism where it would start to slow down. But again, there's definitely some benefits. It's not a terrible thing. It's just, I don't think it should be, unless it's your favorite form of exercise and that's all you're gonna do. I don't wanna finish ragging on it yet because there's other things about it that you bring up training clients for a really long time. And I trained a lot of clients that did this.  And then they're doing these pumping exercises and movements. They already have poor recruitment patterns. They're reinforcing that. They're just reinforcing all the issues they may have. So, you know, you brought up hip flexors and there's a reason why the hip flexors, because most people are already hip flexor dominant because of lower cross syndrome.  She doesn't understand what she needs to do. She doesn't understand how she needs to rotate her pelvis. All she's seeing is pump, pump, pump, pump, pump, like crazy and trying to keep up and sweating. And so you don't realize that there's things that you could be doing that would greatly benefit that body more than that.  And it sounds so logical, but it's just- It's the same thing with athletes. It's the same thing with football, baseball, you name it. Like, that's the go-to is like, I want to look like this guy. So I'm gonna train exactly like that.  No, no, a high level ballerina has got those long, get the long limbs that long, you know, and it's just they were born that way. And then they trained a particular way as well. But if you want muscles that are lean and tone and sculpted, then it's nutrition and resistance training. And that's it. If you want to throw in some bar classes as well, that's great. But really the foundation of your programming should be resistance training that's individualized for your body. Next question is from Austin4100. What programming did Adam use during his show prep and how did his programming evolve from his first show to his last show? Okay. Well, from as far as- I'll take this one. You got adjusted? Yeah. Well, this is what inspired MAPS Black. So I trained a very similar protocol to what we did in MAPS Black. And if you own MAPS Black, you'll notice that it's out of all the programs, it's the only a program that like you can continue to go around and build volume into it through the focus sessions. So it's designed that I could run it from the beginning of when I first started prep all the way through all of my shows. And the way it evolved was increased volume. So I followed that. And even before MAPS Black, I was following something closer to like a MAPS Red because this is when Sal and I were first talking, I was getting ready to get ready to get in shape to then try and compete. And so I was training. And him and I were doing a lot of talking back then. He'd already created MAPS Red. So a lot of my programming started to kind of evolve around Red, but I also knew that Red was very strength and it's a very incredible, it's what we call consider our base program. And me getting on stage, the amount of volume and training that I would need to do to sculpt my physique, I would have to increase quite a bit. So I was training six to seven days a week. I started off with following kind of a structure like Red. And then eventually, once I hit stage, I was evolved into a program like Black. Now Black didn't exist, it's what I was doing. So what I did was I took Sal's Red and then I started to build in these extra days where he was doing trigger sessions. I was doing what was called, what we ended up naming focus sessions where I was focusing on specific body parts that I felt were lagging, that were holding back my symmetry in my body. And I was training those on those off days of the other three full body workouts. And then I would just over time, over weeks, I would slowly increase that. So when it first started, it kind of looked like a trigger session. I wasn't in the gym for very long. I was touching maybe one or two exercises then I was out or that I was walking on the treadmill or stretching or something else. And then after show after show, you think I did like what, six shows? So if I was gonna continue to progress my physique, I was continually to pack on volume. And if you want specific numbers, I would talk about doing a YouTube video around this. So maybe make a mental note, Doug, for me to do this, but I wanted to do something on volume. I think volume is grossly underrated. People don't talk about it very much. And I think that years went by of training that I didn't fully understand what is volume, how to measure volume, and what a difference it could make when you talk about building bigger muscle and- Increasing your workload. Yeah, and doing it mathematically and strategically, right? Like people think you have to add weight every time. That's one way, but you can just be able to handle more work. That's another way. All of this contributes to triggering more adaptation. And Maps Aesthetic is designed that each time you go through three months of training that when you could technically, even though we recommend for the average person to go through all the programs, but a person who's competing that is solely focused on aesthetics and that's all they care about like I did, you could keep going back through black, but each time you go back through, you start to build volume into the focus. So I'll give you an example so you understand what I'm saying. So volume is sets times reps times weight. That gives you the total volume towards the muscle that I'm trying to develop and bring up. So if I go to a show and a judge tells me, Adam, your shoulders are weak. You got a great chest, you got a great back, abs look awesome, shoulders are small. So I go, okay, well, I was doing shoulders two times a week, this many sets, this many reps, this much weight. Let's just say hypothetically, just for argument's sake, I was doing 50,000 pounds of volume on my shoulders per week. So then all I did was I increased that by 10%. And I would increase it by 10% and I would pay attention to my strength. I would pay attention to my weight, my weight going up. I would pay attention to the way my shoulders looked in the mirror. And then every other week or so, I would start to increase by another 10%. And depending on how close I was the show time, I might be increasing every week by 10%. But that's not very much when you think about it. When you go 10% of 50,000 pounds, I just got to increase 5,000 pounds. So I could do that through adding one more exercise in the week. I can do that by adding two or three more sets. I could do that by adding- Or reps. Yeah, or reps or weight. Total volume is one of the easiest ways to guarantee that you're going to build size or add more muscle to an area. And just most people neglect to actually mathematically break that down. And it's okay if you don't care.  I need to do, I need to up that by 20. He's not doing that because he gets two shits about it. As long as his shoulders are strong, they're mobile. He can move the way he wants to. And he's programming. He's not gonna care about it. But if you're an aesthetically driven person and you need certain parts of your body part, they're unbi- If your legs are too small for your upper body, there is a way to mathematically attack that and be very successful at it. Do you guys remember when it first clicked for you that you, when you started to just increase the frequency of training and what happened to your body? Yeah, well that was- Oh yeah. That was a lot when we first started talking. When you and I first started talking, it's what turned me on to what you were talking about because it was funny that around the same time, I had been really dabbling with more frequency. Start putting it together. Yeah, I was kind of like putting it together myself and then I read what you said, I'm like, oh my God, this is so what everybody needs to hear. Here I am 10 plus years into my career and nobody was ever telling me the importance of frequency. Yeah. Intensity has always been pushed. Even in the athletic realm, I mean we were still doing splits and going for off days and hammering the legs super hard and yeah, just getting back to frequency and adding more volume with that was like a game changer for me. Frequency and then the reducing of or not going to failure were the two things that I was kinda, that was my world, right?  How funny is this? I was training my clients first that way. I trained myself. I trained myself that way afterwards.  Why am I not applying this? It's not funny how we do that. I'm totally guilty of that too. Because you're just a better, you're more objective when you're dealing with someone else than when you're dealing with yourself. It's just the bottom line. You're watching it all happen. It is so hard to be objective with yourself, especially when it comes to your training or your attitude or anything.  Like it's hard to be objective. Same thing for training. I remember the first time I did it, I went from training each body part once a week to training twice a week and then doing full body three days a week. And it was instant, like instantly I went and worked out and it was like the second or third workout of the week and I was stronger all of a sudden. And I just had that feeling.  I wasn't just like, I just remember not being as taxed, you know, certain days where you just feel like, oh god, like the motivation isn't there, the energy isn't there.  It was just like, wow, I just like would keep ramping up. And I had this upward sort of energy versus you know, being feeling like super fatigued all the time. What's funny is when I bring it up to people when I would talk to them about this type of thing like I had a buddy who was a bodybuilder and I would talk to him about this and like, dude, you need to try training the body parts more frequently, do the same total volume, just increase your frequency. And he would kind of debate me a little bit and he'd go, you know, this was an interesting time. He's like, I remember a while ago I wanted my bench press to go up when I was younger and all I did was go get under the bar every day and do like two or three sets. And he goes, and I got my bench press up to 400 pounds. It's like, you know, I was like, I forgot about that. I wonder if that works for everything else. I'm like, yes, it does, dude, give it a try. And he put on literally, this is a guy who's got great genetics, but he instantly put eight solid pounds of muscle in something like two months just from changing it over and then forever he was. Well, think of it this way and you say that a lot what you just said about, you know, just keep your volume the same and then split it up over three and you're right. You'll see a difference just from the frequency but here's the thing, here's the kicker to that is that's the real secret sauce is when you break up your frequency over three times a week on that muscle group, it allows you to increase your volume so much easier. Oh yeah. So much easier. Over time. For example, think of it this way, like so I was a guy who used to do 25 sets of legs.  I remember those leg days.  I need more volume in my legs if they're gonna grow. So, and that started off, I was doing 15 that I was doing that I was doing 25. Now here's the problem with that. That's not sustainable. It's really tough to come in and go beast mode 25 sets. And even then, how do you build upon that? How do you build more volume in that without just continuing to be more sets, more reps or increase more weight?  That's one exercise. I can go squat eight times. That could be done. Dude, you could do 10 sets three times a week and now you're doing 30 sets for your legs. Right, that's what I mean. And they're fresh sets. Right, and it's so much easier and you're doing better lifts. So it's so much easier for you to build volume into your program. So if you're very serious about building an aesthetic physique, you need to learn how to track your volume. Like, if you're like, if this is, I have no idea what this guy looks like who asked this question. But if you're asking this question because you're considered about getting into competing and you're serious about it, hopefully you're, and this is another thing, talk about all the bad coaches out there. I didn't meet one coach that spoke to volume and any of their athletes, none. It was just like hard cardio, none. No, you know who talks about volume a lot? Olympic coaches and even powerlifting coaches.  It blows my mind. It was crazy because I remember watching myself get ready for a show and like, I remember these buddies of mine that were pros and coaches saying like, oh, get on stage. And I'm like, no dude, I'm not even ready, man. I won't get on stage until I feel like I've built enough size that I feel like I can compete with pros. And so I waited for that. And if you look back at all my show pictures, every show I brought a different physique, a bigger and more improved physique, show over show over show. Well, it's duh. I just tracked my volume. And every show I brought more to, in different areas, like maybe my chest wasn't bigger in every show, but that wasn't a focus. My focus was shoulders one time or then it was legs or it was calves or it was back. So every time, whatever I brought, whatever I presented this on the stage was a different package. And I see this at the professional level of the pros and men's physique. Bodybuilding, they can't get away with this because bodybuilding, there's so much more that has to be put into it. But men's physique, so many guys already have really good genetics. And so they don't have to be, they don't have to, they're not forced to have to do this math. And I was forced to because I don't have the genetics.  So if you're a guy who's getting ready to get into men's physique or you're already in it and you don't understand how to like track your volume.  Well, what does work on areas mean? Just do more of it? Well, yeah, how about be strategic and smart about it and build volume? Now, that's the beauty of Maps Black is we took that out for people because we understood that. How many people really wanna sit down and punch in a calculator and track that? If you follow the program and each time you come around on the program you just slowly increase sets, reps or weight into it. It's naturally designed to progress you volume wise. Next question is from Mark Wolz. Your thoughts on performance enhancing drugs and sports and have you watched the documentary Icarus? That was a good one. That was a good one. Yeah, documentary. Really long, but really good. Yeah, yeah. It shows you like what the Soviet Union was up to, man. Oh, wow. It does. So it's the documentary of a cyclist, a competitive amateur cyclist. So he's a pretty good one. It's a very good documentary. Who got in contact with one of the premier, if you want, I don't know, what you wanna call him, scientists in this particular area from the former Soviet Union who knew how to put athletes on drugs and how to get them to pass tests so they can compete in drug tested events. And so he kind of used himself as an experiment and then the documentary goes into other stuff after that. But I found it very fascinating. I also found it fascinating that his performance, he didn't see these crazy changes. No, not at all. He didn't do well at all. Yeah, yeah. He placed better natural. Which this is what I liked. That's what I liked about the documentary is I wish I saw more things like this before I ever dabbled with testosterone because I really thought that it was like the reason why athletes were super impressive.  And I had no idea that how little it had to do with these guys at that level. When you're at the elite level with cycling, with swimming, with basketball, with football, you gotta have everything else. And the PEDs is just the kicker, man. It really is. It's just an edge. It is. But it's actually not an edge because everybody's doing it. Right, if everyone's doing it, it's not much of an edge. No, it's funny. You know, they're getting smarter with how they use antibiotics in sports. Like you'll see MMA fighters, for example, because they compete in these weight classes, they're not using these crazy doses of things like testosterone to get jacked because you go up a weight class.   If I'm pushing my body to heavyweight with antibiotics and I'm fighting a guy who's a natural heavyweight, he's got an advantage over me.  Well, of course, being that way, our technique or someone else. People don't understand why that is, though. People don't realize why would it go. He's lived in that weight. Right, if you have two guys, both of them are 220 pounds. One of them has been 220 pounds his whole life, is natural and has been fighting. They would say everything else is equal. They've been training as long, they're both top of their class, they're awesome. And then the other one, God is now bumped up to that class because he's taking testosterone. The guy who's natural, 100%, because like Justin just said, he's used all, everything else, because when you take testosterone, it doesn't change your ligaments. It doesn't change your bone structure. It doesn't change those things. So if it doesn't change those things, those things are important. And then when someone throws a punch, if your bone structure is denser, harder, thicker, bigger, like it's gonna hurt more. And if you're gonna be able to take more and you're used to moving around that weight, there's so many factors. So yeah, these guys use it more for recovery. That's the thing, if you took all hormones and antibiotics and all that stuff, if you took all of them out of professional sports, the people at the top would still be the people at the top and they'd still would be superhuman. And that's just still crazy. This is kind of why I'm kind of like whatever about it. Because at this point, I don't think you, there's like, there's people within the sport. So I do get, it's a good conversation. And I do know that there's some people that speak passionately about it because I could understand if you're like, let's use an example of my buddy, Brandon Abendezio, right? He's got, I am Abendezio, sorry. He has got, you know, eight years in the NFL. So does my other buddy, Eric Frampton, who's got eight years they played in the NFL, both of them all natural guys. But they're also, they weren't, they're not Ray Lewis.  And so they played eight years in the league and they were good, but they weren't like super. I think if those guys took testosterone, they would have been well more. They probably would have been. Right, cause they already had all the natural gifts. They were incredible football players. So they could, and so I get why guys like that would be like anti testosterone because they don't want to take it.  You know what I also get it to just from, as far as like trying to get back to the purity of like what sports even like represent, you know, for youth and for kids especially. Like I always, but sports like you mentioned MMA and stuff like that, like I don't want kids doing MMA, you know, anyways. So like that's a different category for me. So there's like certain things where it's, it's more, it seems more like entertainment and carnage, like football for me is like, you know, I'm okay. Like let's all just bash heads and get crazy. Cause it's, it's, this is violent. This is a violent sport. You know, it's not grace and beauty and, you know, I mean there is elements of that, but like what people really are drawn to it for is the carnage. Well, so this is my theories on all this. I think that where it'll go away is, I don't think, I think the future like the NFL. I told you already where we're going, which by the way, the company, I think Free D is the name of the company that's coming out. It's first person perspective of the athlete. Look through, yeah. Right. So I actually think even the future is the athletes will virtually represent their bodies, their strengths, their attributes. I think we'll be able to measure this. But I think there'll be virtual beings that look real and that avatars like avatars. And it'll actually be met. Like, so like you and I, like they'll be able, we have the science to be able to show your strength, your explosive enough, your speed. So if you could do that, we could be able to do a simulation. Yes. A simulation.  It'll be awesome. Cause it's not a real, it's not a real human. Right. You could spear me.  I'm out of the game for the day.  Right. Think about that. And, but think of it like avatar style. This is where I think we're going. Because especially when you think about all the stuff that's coming out with concussions and how dangerous football is and it's protecting more and more. We're heading the other direction. The pendulum swung this way. It's going the other way. That's an interesting thought.  I don't know. Would you be tied to it as strongly? Yeah. Well, if it's first person perspective and it looks just like a real human. It'd be a video game. Oh yeah. Think about it.  They're at their home playing themselves. Would it be? Do you see people hacking in and giving themselves cheat codes? You know what I mean? This guy's huge. How did that happen? I don't know. So here's something interesting. So I, you know, I'll stand by this. I'm totally sober right now. Yeah, I know. That's such a... I thought it was. I swear. I'm tripping on it right now. I'll say this. I think performance enhancing drugs do give athletes an advantage and an edge. But I think they give female athletes a much bigger advantage and edge than they do to men. And I'll stand by that.  I think when you look at women, I think the difference gets dramatic, mainly because testosterone in the female body is very, very potent.  So I would stand by that. I think that performance enhancing drugs in female-driven sports or with women is probably a bigger issue.  I mean, what's your thoughts on it? I mean... I wish. Here's what I wish. I wish they were not frowned upon or illegal so that everybody, you know, they talked about what they took and there was more science and finesse behind it. Because I think that it's more dangerous now because they have to hide it and they have to figure things out and they gotta use chemicals that may be not ideal. I think there should be like maybe two separate leagues. Like there should be a league.  Nobody's watching the purists. Exactly. Nobody's gonna watch it. It would die. But that's a humbling thing, right? It's like... What was the... Remember the... It's be like the XFL. XFL. Yeah. The XFL. Not happening. That's so funny. No, I mean, so you see what... I know you guys don't follow sports as much or just not as much as you used to. What happened in baseball this year was crazy. Historical. So, you know, all of baseball, we have your average home runs that happen per year that all of a sudden steroids come out. Barry Bond, Sammy Sosa, Mark McGuire, that era. Home runs like double. I don't remember what it is. And I'm sure somebody, some baseball nerd will correct me here. Well, they had to do something because the viewership went like way down because of, remember that, like, strike? Right, so we had the strike. Baseball thing was completely down. So, it's kind of like all of a sudden, these guys get massive. The league starts to turn a blind eye because they're getting viewership like they never have. So, steroids kind of are floating around the MLB for a good five, eight years or so.  So, boom. So, you go from guys that were, on average, baseball players were hitting... A lot of dudes were hitting 45 to 55 home runs every season, and then the record guys were hitting 60 plus, right? So, then all of a sudden we drop, everyone drops to like 25. So, now baseball's only seen like 20, 25 home runs. This year, they beat the steroid era with all the steroid testing. So, one of two things is like massive equipment. Are they juicing up the balls? Yeah, so the theory is that they're using or doing something different to the ball.  So, the Colorado Rockies, when the stadium got built the first year, home runs were flying out like crazy. It was the altitude. Because the altitude and the humidity, right? So, or the dry, it's dry. It doesn't have a lot of, not a lot of humidity. So, they actually at Colorado, they figured this out after a couple of years. Like, dude, everybody comes to Colorado and home runs, home runs, home runs, it's not fair. We need to figure something out. And they're like, oh, it's the air. Oh, and it's the ball.  Add humidity? No, they're kept in a humidor.  So, they don't fly out of the park. Oh, oh, oh, they keep them, they add humidity to them. They stay in it, yeah, they stay in it, exactly. Oh, I see. Yes, because if they get dried out and hard, they're gonna go. Yeah, they'll fly out. So, they keep them in a humidor. So, they stay kind of, they stay there. Lick cigars? Right. And then, from game time, then they take them out and then they play with them. So, if I know that, and I've known that for years now that they did this, I would suspect that you could keep the same balls, but you could manipulate the- Go in the other direction. Right, go the opposite direction, dry out a ball really well. And that would probably- It's so funny. Right, so I don't know what's going on right now, but that there's all kinds of speculation around the ball and stuff. The pitchers are saying that it- At least the cork bats, and they crack down for a while. Right, so, but it's crazy that we went from that testosterone era in baseball. You saw this huge spike. Then we go, now we're cracking down hard, but then all of a sudden, this is happening. Everyone's going like, where is this coming from? We broke the record with all steroids. What's happened?   And they could, they were right on, spot on with the new balls. They could feel the difference. No one could see it. They're looking at it. No one could tell they were stitching looks same. Everything looks normal, but a pitcher that's so used to grabbing. That's the real performance enhancing that's going on in sports. It's true, like the gloves that receivers are using the NFL now. Oh my God. Dude, have you ever seen those? Yeah, it's like- Stick them. Yeah, it's crazy. They're like tar on their hands. It is funny when you say that because- The drugs don't have as much of an impact as the- No, and there's a great TED Talk on that that we all watched a couple years ago that was, and I forgot the name of the TED Talk, but it was the one that totally dispelled everything that I believed with Testosterone being totally- Totally on the four minute mile. Right, yeah. It talks about the four minute- The dirt track that they're running on. All the equipment that the cap, the swimsuits that the athletes, like all these records that keep getting broken is a lot most- With the technology here. Yeah, it's the equipment. We should have to compete naked. You know what I'm saying? Like the ancient Greeks. Well, dude. Like you get naked, like that's it. There's nothing. Nothing can help you. Right, right. Now it'd be interesting to see, especially things like- It'd make it interesting. When you look at like football, to me, I don't know, because maybe I'm just into football the most out of all those sports. I feel like that, man, the types, how aerodynamic the pads become, how lighter the helmets, but protective they become, the cleats, the turf that they run on, the wide receiver gloves, I mean, which is why football has changed so much. Big business, man, the equipment and just all these little like, you know, the undergarments and like all these different like pads and stuff like that. It's just so high tech now. Hilarious. Hilarious. Check this out. We have a new website. MindPumpMedia.com is all updated. It's got brand new stuff on there. Go there and buy everything. There's some good, you can watch videos and read about information on each of our programs. There's blogs on there, fitness information, we have our guides on there. It's awesome. Check it out. Also, go to YouTube, subscribe to our YouTube channel, Mind Pump TV. 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Dedicated to the strength of the nation, now heard on more than 1,300 radio stations. Proudly we hail. Proudly we hail, starring Ruth Warwick in Romance, Incorporated. United States Army in United States Air Force Presentation. Now here is our producer, the well-known Hollywood showman, C.P. McGregor. Thank you, thank you, and greetings from Hollywood, ladies and gentlemen. Welcome to your Theatre of Stars, where each week, the great names of the cinema world join us in plays we know you'll enjoy. Beautiful Ruth Warwick is our proudly we hail star, and provides a gay portrayal as the daughter of Wall Street's current financial giant in a comedy romance, Incorporated. Our curtain for act one will rise in a moment. Here now is Wendell Niles with an important message from your government. Many young men are finding that an Army or Air Force career is just what they've wanted. They're learning a special skill or trade. They're finding many opportunities for further education. They're working with other young men who have similar aims in life. In the Army or Air Force, they have security. And above all, they have the respect of their countrymen and the world because they're serving their country and mankind in the pursuit of peace. Now back to our producer. It's curtain time, and here's act one of romance, Incorporated, starring Ruth Warwick as Kate. High atop an imposing edifice at a strategic point on Wall Street are the offices of Bertram Dutton and Company. Groups of office workers are conferring in whispers. Secretaries are tiptoeing about their tasks. Even the ticker tape is quiet. In fact, it's the quiet before the storm. For even now, mutters of anger are coming from the office, or should I say, the den of the man they call the old wolf of Wall Street, Bertram Dutton himself. In this mood, no normal person would dare approach the sanctum sanctorum, but the brash young lady who stride through the outer office is by no means a normal person. Oh, all the confounded... Why, Father, how you talk? Oh, it's you. It seems to be. May I come in? You are in. May I sit down? If you must stay. I see you're in one of your good moods today.  It entered. Then I take it you have business to transact. Correct. Such as? There is a matter of my allowance. Would a check take care of it? How did the market close? Up. In that case, a check will take care of it. Oh, Catherine, my dear. You're looking lovely, as usual. She should. It's all she's got to do. Are you ready to go to dinner, Dadly? Well, I... Don't think Dad is in his regrets, baby. But he's going to be in a very important business conference for a couple of hours. Well, it's quite evident that Lincoln's proclamation didn't apply to rising young stockbrokers. Flip and seize will get you nowhere. Kansas, wait until tomorrow. I'm leaving town early in the morning. I won't be back until Monday. Oh, what's so urgent?  I'll give you a ring in the morning. This is business. You wouldn't understand. I will make a supreme effort. Oh, this noise is a waste of time. We're not getting anywhere. Dudley, you go and get the file on Martin Motors. And don't bring one of those confounded puzzles back with you. What are you up to, Father? I'll explain. In words of one syllable. This is the neatest deal I've ever worked out. Oh, wait. First, let us dispose of the matter of Dudley. Indeed. I have been engaged to Dudley for 18 months, during which you have never given him enough time off to get married. Now it's come to the point where I can't even borrow him for dinner. Perhaps I'm awfully slow, but could it be that you don't want us to get married? That could be. List me reason. He's too dull. He's in a rut. He does crossword puzzles.  A man who'll call you Kate and make you like it. What I need is besides the point. Here's the file. Baby, this company is going places and in the near future. According to my calculations. Which are the rule infallibles? Sound observation. In simple terms, there are one million shares of stock in the company. We own 499,000 shares. Unfortunately, J.C. Pierce, the old thief, bought up 499,000. Even with my limited knowledge of monetary matters, I understand that he who gets the remaining 2,000 shares controls the company. A shrewd deduction. The point is that we've got to find the owner before J.C. does, so we can get it at our own price. We have to buy it before J.C. starts bidding against us and forces the price up. Is it honest? It's business. There are times when I agree with those who call you the wolf of Wall Street. There are times when such tactics result in a mink coat like the one you got for Christmas. There's no point in prolonging this discussion. I see that I am to play second fiddle to 2,000 shares of modern motors. Tell you what I'll do. If you and Dudley separately or collectively can get hold of that stock, I'll give Dudley a month off and stake you to a honeymoon. Well, Bertram. I have a few ideas that might work out. I wonder. This is your floor, sir. Oh, thanks. Adam? Yes, ma'am. Hey, wait a minute. I changed my mind.  Why, of all things, I never expected to see you again. Oh, you didn't? No, I didn't. Well, this is wonderful. I'm taking you to dinner, of course. You are obviously confused. You mean you don't remember me? Well, should I? Of course you should. The USO. The USO? I was a lonely GI ready to ship out, and you were an angel. I was? Well, yes, you was. I mean, worth. Don't you remember? Patrick. Patrick Halliday. Well, there were so many GIs. Look, you don't know how many times I've wished that I could repay you for just talking to me that night. Now that I have the chance, well, how about it? Dinner, I mean. Well, I... Wonderful. Come on. Will you lock my customary line or are you a silent dancer? Rattle off. You dance very well. You lead very well. Perhaps we're tuned. Oh, heaven forbid. Well, say, you were not married or anything like that. I make it a rule never to answer impersonate questions. There's an exception to every rule. No. No what? No. I'm not married or anything. Why not? Well, maybe I've never been asked. Well, you've been asked already. The young man talks flattering words. The young man talks facts. He has to be a professor. Oh? What do you teach? English literature. The romantic age. And speaking of romance. Which we weren't. I'll only be in New York a short time. And you want me to show you the town? That would indeed be charming. Tell me, professor, what's caused you to forsake the sacred halls of learning? Bertram Dutton and Company. Dutton? What do you have to do with Dutton? Business. Strictly business. I have no intention of associating with the Park Avenue slump crowd. Well, that almost sounds nasty. I've heard of his methods of doing business. They don't call him the wolf of Wall Street for nothing. Oh, he's not so bad. You know, unfortunately, my memory for faces is superior to my memory for names. Well, what do they call you? Catherine. Kate. Hmm? What goes where? Uh, Hutton. Well, Miss Hutton, what do you know of Bertram Dutton? Well, I went to school with his daughter. Hmm? It caused mix-ups, no end. Did you like her? Well, confidentially, she got under my skin. Penny? I'm wondering how to lure you out under the terrace for the duration of a reasonable private kiss. Well, you might ask how I feel. Very well. How do you feel? Let's get some air. Good morning. Hmm. What time did you get in last night? Oh, I don't know. I didn't punch the time clock. What are you up so early for? Maybe I wanted to see you off. Then again, maybe I'm after the worm. What's his name? Name of Patrick Hallaby. Do I know him? I don't think so. How'd you meet him? I picked him up, sort of, in an elevator. It was mutual. Hmm. Maybe hope for you, after all. Why father? Such thought. Hello. Good morning, my dear. Oh, hello, Dudley. Everything? No. I think about it. I said no. Okay. I'm afraid I'm going to be very busy at dinner, Dudley. Yes, but, my dear. Very busy, indeed. Kate, this can't go on. How long do we know each other? Hmm? Oh, about 33 hours. 30 minutes and 14 seconds. I'm a firm believer in speed. I don't like long engagements. Could it be that you're proposing to me? Could be. Do you know I'm a girl who believes in old-fashioned courtship? In that case, first we'll come to courtship. When will it commence? Now, this very minute. Very well. I'm waiting. Oh. There. Now that we've dispensed with the courtship, we'll get married. Oh, well. It's a matter that needs thought. I'll give you precisely 60 seconds to give it thought. Oh, I don't need that much time. Your answer is? Yes. Thank you. Thank you. You, uh, you have a father? Uh, yes. All right, Ben, the next logical step will be to get his permission. Oh, he's rather a lovable old bear, and also he's out of town, and besides, he's fond of surprises. It's all mine. What are we waiting for? That couple come to get married? It's not too late, is it? No, never too late. Sure you don't want to take it over? Oh, we've thought. Yeah, I think again. Can't you just skip the advice and marry us? Oh, suppose I can. Come in. Come in. Ah, there'll be two dollars in advance. Interesting little soul, isn't he? Don't suppose you got a license. Oh, great Scott, no. No, don't get excited. Just a little joke. Don't need one here in Greenwich. Very funny. Yeah, here's a register. Sign your names in residence, and whether you've ever taken the fatal step for, I'm going to wake up Ma on the rumor. There'll be your witnesses. For the next two dollars, Ma will play the wedding march on the piano. Never mind the piano. Just get on with the marrying. Hold your horses, sonny. You'll watch your wife turn patient for us along. Crazy old coon. Hey, baby, sign your names. All right. Didn't they teach you to write in school? Hm? It's the funniest looking H I ever saw. Oh, nurse. Hey, hey, look out. You spilled ink on it. I'll never be able to prove who I married. It doesn't matter. I'll have a new name in a minute. Ma, the room will be down to Giffey. Everything's set? Seems like. You got the ring? Ring. The ceremony, sonny, with this ring, I beware. That's what you repeat after me. Then you put it on your girl's finger, and bang, it's done. Oh, but, Kate, I haven't got a ring. Oh, it doesn't matter. No reason to get excited. I just happened to have a few rings on hand, just in case. You own the rice concession, too? No, Ma has that. You can pick out the ring while we're waiting for the witnesses. You wouldn't have one which sells in the neighborhood of two dollars. Just so happens a half. Well, don't you have a better one? Oh, I don't want a better one, Patrick. Just so happens, I wouldn't want to get him out of his two-dollar rupt. This was recently from our story, Romance and Corcorate. It's starring Ruth Warwick for an important message from your government. I'm wondering if you young men are familiar with the Air Force Aviation Career Plan. It's not complicated, and it's a great chance to start your career in a fast-growing field of aviation. If you're a high school graduate, you're eligible. And here's what that entitled you to. If you enlist for three years, you can choose the aviation skill you'd like to learn and listen. There are no strings attached. If not accepted for the Air Force Technical School you have selected, you are not required to enlist. That's fair enough, isn't it? Once accepted, you are guaranteed the Air Force Technical Training you have chosen. And remember, there are 40 different aviation skills to choose from. Drop in at your local recruiting station today, men, and ask about the Air Force Aviation Career Plan. The Air Force representatives there will be glad to talk to you. The clip arises on Act 2 of Romance and Corcorate, starring Ruth Warwick as Kate. In matters of finance, Bertram Dutton, the old wolf of Wall Street, had never been bested. Even now, he was sure that he could get to the owner of that 2,000 shares of stock before his betterest rival did. For the man who got there first would control a company with a big future. In matters of romance, Bertram had also never been bested. He had been short-selling his daughter's suitors for years, but this time, Bertram was caught short. He was so deep in matters of finance that he paid little attention to matters of romance. Kate made a decision and married Patrick, and now they are riding around in her car. That was the nicest honeymoon I ever had. What? Well, it was. Even though you had to conjure up the food and furnish the transportation? Cooking was the only subject I ever passed in. Kate, I have to talk to you. Talk on. Marriage founted on deceptions at tricky business. I suppose you want a full confession. Oh, I'm confessing. You see, I was never in a USO. I was a major in the Air Corps. Oh, well, I'm confessing too. I was never in a USO either. Nurses' aid. Kate, I'm ashamed of you.  That's a matter of opinion. By the way, I have a surprise for you. What kind of a surprise? Wedding present. Some stock, not worth very much. It sounds like a lot, though. 2,000 shares. Oh, my. It's a concern called Martin Molders. You've probably never heard of it, but it's yours. Oh, my goodness. You happy? Very happy. Do you think your father will prove of me? Oh, I know so. Hey, hey, that's a police car. That's all right. It's going the other way.   Don't be silly. How could I be wanted? Kate, don't tax my patience. All right, so you're intuitive. Evidently. Good morning, officer. What can I do for you? All right, you get out of the car and keep your hands up. Are you kidding? Quit stalling, buddy. I'm the nervous type. Take a look at the girl, Joe. Hey, stop pointing that thing at me. It might go off. You were just holding a waltz. It's the girl, all right. I radio headquarters and tell him we picked him up. What's this all about? He wants to know what it's all about, Joe. Fancy that. Get in the patrol car, buddy. Now, wait a minute. In, mister. Joe will ride with the lady. Patrick. I'm telling her I'm innocent. Believe me, I don't even know what I've done. Lucky for you, your father returned home early from his trip, miss. But how? Your license plate. Your father had it broadcast all over the state. But it's all over now. Terrible experience. Terrible. That all depends on your viewpoint. They're coming in now. Please just drove a... Dudley, put down that puzzle. It calms my nerves. All right, stop shoving. Now, what's the big idea? This isn't a police station. We got your kidnapper, Mr. Dutton. Got the comedy, buddy. It'll go easier with you if I confess. We got the goods on you. Well, somebody's making a big mistake. I didn't kidnap the young lady. I married her. She's my wife. I'm her husband. We're married. What's that? A seven-letter word meaning joined in holy wedlock. Why, you hear? You... Kidnap... Careful, boys. He's got something you want. You bet he has. You? Well, I guess we can be going. Come on, Joe. Okay. Well, goodbye. Nice to have met you, boys. My dear cat. Mrs. Halliday to you? Mrs. Patrick Halliday. Halliday? Well, he's the man who owns the stock. What? He was coming to see me, but he didn't show up. That's why I thought I had the deal sewed up. Oh, I told you to find out who had the stock and get hold of it, baby, but I didn't expect you to go that far. Does Kate work for you? You keep quiet. What have you got to do with it? I'm engaged to her. Well, isn't that just dandy? Isn't it just... Well, somebody please answer a few questions before I blow my top. You answer this one. What do you mean by marrying my daughter? Your what? He is Dutton. Kate, what is this? Well, we'll say something. Hello, Patrick. Oh, that business about your name... Oh, I can explain everything. I've heard of your business, Dutton, but this really takes the cake. I take it the stock in question is my 2,000 shares of Martin Motors. That's right. You must have spent a lot of time coaching Kate to take your place. And you've done a good job. Looks as if you better turn that wolf title over to Miss Wall Street here. Oh, you're jumping to conclusions. Six and six make a dozen. You must have had yourself a real good laugh. I had the crazy idea that you had everything I was looking for in a woman, but, well, I was wrong. Because you're not a woman at all.  You're speaking of the woman I love. You're welcome to her, brother.  That's just what I was about to do. Oh, what about me? You. I wouldn't have you and your millions on a Christmas tree.  What about the snob? See, your daughter was her wedding present. Patrick, you can't leave me like this. You can't believe that. You can't. Evidently, he can. What have you got to say for yourself? Well, I'd like to think of something brilliant. Well, I think this will be adequate. I've got the stock. But I want Patrick. Find him. What? Find him. Get detected. I want to know where he is because we have unfinished business. You in love with him? Of course. Your taste improving. I found him. What now? Now, now, he's going to get his wedding present back. What?  Oh, and you'll both live happily ever after. I wouldn't have him for anything in the world. Well, yesterday you loved him. That was yesterday. Today I despise him. You deliver the stock, that finishes it. What about you? I seek solitude. Where? Oh, aboard the yacht. I'm through with men in general and Patrick in particular. Get me Captain Connors. Will you, I'll hold on. Connors? Bertram, listen. My daughter's coming aboard shortly. She seeks solitude. But I'm going to Shanghai Patrick and get him on the boat. Now, here's what you do.  Me, a heel? Look, haven't you made enough trouble for me, having me Shanghai so that I've missed my train? Well, I'll probably lose my job. Having you Shanghai? Why, you conceited dope. The more distance there is between us, the better I'll like it. That's exactly the way I feel. Then why don't you start swimming? You got me out here, Kate. I'm going to wear the daylights out of you. Wrong, I got you out here. You old pirate. Why don't you two do ten rounds and make a high profit by my mistakes? Oh, you're insufferable. Never fails. A woman runs out of words. She always resorts to violence. I'll take the launch. Someone from the Yacht Club will come after you.  Thanks for the compliment. Goodbye. Some mistake in my calculations, no doubt. No doubt. Don't you worry, Catherine, my dear. I'm still here. That's what I was afraid of. Now, you just forget it.  Definitely, legally married? Would it interest you to know that I've been investigating a normal? It would. Well, after all, he should be happy. He got his money. What did you say? What Dudley meant was that... Never mind what Dudley meant. He said that Patrick got his money. What's money? The money for the stock. I told you to give him the stock, Bertram. Oh, yes, yes, so you did. And you didn't say you gave him money instead? So I... didn't I saw no reason for not keeping this stock in the family? Oh, you didn't. Well, get this, Bertram, my lad. The stock is mine, not yours. Kate.  On the very first day I heard about this deal, you planned to swindle the owner? Business is business. Business, the way you practice it is highway robbery. But this time the old Wolf of Wall Street is bitten off more than he can chew. I won't stand around and see you two dip Patrick. I'm going to see if he gets what his stock is really worth. I'm going to notify J.C. Pierce and the stock goes to the highest bidder. You can't do that. No, I... What's good reason of you for turning against your own father? I have discovered that honesty is the best policy.  I come from a long line of gibbering idiots. Oh, that shows what love can do to all women's intelligence. That's it. I love it. I fell in love with him the first minute he stepped on my foot in the elevator. I didn't know who he was. I let him pick me up. I have raided the elopement. He didn't know he had anything to do with the stock until we were coming back from our honeymoon. He doesn't think much of me, and I can say that I blame him. But he's going to get what's coming to him. It certainly is. Oh, I thought you'd gone. I had. Came back. Why? I forgot something. What? You. Come on. Oh, hey, put me down. Kate, I've been a fire chap, but I'm in love with you and I'm going to make up for her. You what? I'm in love with you. And I was saying... Oh, say no more. Kate, can you picture yourself in a vine cupboard cottage with a picket fence and a fireplace cooking a professor's dinner? I can now. Well, that's all I wanted to know. Let's go, honey. There they go, Dudley. And the dividends will be something special. The dividends? What do you mean, Bishop? The dividends, grandchildren. Of course, I'll be president. What are you talking about? Why, Dudley, I organized this whole thing. I, Burton Dutton, will be president of Romance Incorporate. The curtain falls concluding our story, Romance Incorporated. Ruth Warwick, our star, will be back for a curtain call following this message from Wendell Niles. Anircraft men are skilled and especially trained. You ex-servicemen who served any anircraft artillery unit noted. And you are the men the regular army needs. Right now, there are openings in the army for you men with previous service in the AAAs. Yes, and chances for a good grade, in some cases as high as the grade you held at time of discharge, are excellent. It's your chance to get back into anircraft and one you can't afford to miss. Why don't you drop in at your local U.S. army and U.S. Air Force recruiting station and get the details? Find out if you can qualify. Let the army recruiters there tell you what grade you can enlist in. An army career is one of the best today. And you'll enjoy being with your old offset, the three A's. Make it a point to get in on this fine army offer as soon as possible. You'll be doing yourself a favor. Now back to the microphone, our star, Ruth Warwick and our producer. Our star, Ruth Warwick, has been on our show more than anyone else. So it is a double pleasure that we ask her to return for her usual informal chat.  Could it be... Oh, come on. Oh, mousey bee. You're jumping to conclusion. But I am excited. Oh, well, tell us about it. Well, I'm going on a much needed vacation and in just a few hours, I'll be on my way to Honolulu. So you're heading for the Paradise Isles of the Pacific. And I'm thrilled that. And there's a very special lull that I'm looking forward to. Say, you've already made me envious over the trip without mentioning those famous traditional feasts. But you ain't supposed to use those Hawaiian terms until you return. Oh, well, I've been reading up on them, you know. How are you going on the boat? No, I'm going to take the clipper. And you know what? What? In just about 30 seconds now, I'm going to start relaxing for it. So, I shall say pal for now, C.P. You have been reading up. Well, right now, we'll start making this in a lull party. We should have some Hawaiians here. It's very nice of you, but I'm in the mood, all right. Now, if I could only say... You don't need to. I'm perfectly happy. And I know I'm going to have a wonderful time. You will with so many fine friends. And incidentally, this show is broadcast over there, so don't forget to set your radio dials our way next week. Oh, I won't. Could you give me a little preview in advance? Next week, Ruth and ladies and gentlemen, that dynamic and highly capable actor, Michael O'Shea, stars in a dramatic play, Whistle Station. He provides action, excitement, and a bit of love interest. You'll enjoy him in an outstanding performance, I'm sure. That's just right. And I'll let the island provide my atmosphere. Well, here's Paul. Aloha, Ruth, and good flying. We should have joined us next week, ladies and gentlemen, and we'll bring you Michael O'Shea in Whistle Station. Until next week, this is CP McGregor saying thanks for listening and Cheerio from Hollywood. Ruth Warwick appears in the courtesy of the Hollywood Coordinates Committee with the Rangers for the Appearance of All Stars on this program. The story was by Gary Day, music under the direction of Eddie Stravan. The program is transguided in Hollywood for release at this time. Wendell Niles speaking.