Welcome, welcome everyone to this fireside chat. The intent of a fireside chat is to chat around a fire. Now, virtually that's kind of difficult. A little John has put one in the background, a virtual fire in the background. And to just sort of, you know, at the end of a little hard days work, connect, discuss a few things, learn some more about each other and what others are doing. And in this particular case, we're going to learn some more about what Saal is doing by some people land. My name is Peter van der Gaag. I work for the ERC Foundation, set up to support the global ecosystem restoration communities movement. And I will be our host around the farm. I are trying to make sure that the conversation keeps going and it's a light. Bart has a fire behind him. Thank you for coming. Usually during the session more people come in as they know that we start with exactly what I'm just starting with, which is a short presentation about what's going on in the ERC movement right now. And then we'll go to John, who will share his experiences in Dubai right now for the climate negotiations, share some of his thoughts about what's going on there and some of his ideas. And then we'll go to Saal and Saal will explain to you what the bison people land is doing in the Dakotas with this magnificent animal that you can see behind him. But first, some news about the movements. So I hope it's visible. Some basic, usually at the fires of chat you can interrupt each other but in a virtual meeting that's quite annoying. So if you have any questions, hold them until after Saal is done or you can post them already in the chat and we will record those and make sure Saal is asked them when he's done. There will be a question and answer session. We would prefer that you raise your hand and ask it in person. But if you're shy, you can post it also in the chat again. We hope, well, we usually aim for one hour but I've been at once where we last two and a half hours because of the conversations afterwards. We'll make sure there's plenty of time. If you wanna leave after one hour, of course feel free to leave. You may have to cook dinner or have something else on your agenda. That's fine, but usually conversations last a bit longer. And of course, please mute your microphone and turn off your video also to save on bandwidth for people looking at these strong places with less strong internet connections. Some quick plugs. There's a few courses taking place. The, our first original ecosystem restoration design course is being launched again until the 10th of January. Discounts if you sign up, but it starts in February. It's an online course. There's a rewilding training in the UK in March at Embergum. And then there is a course that we're doing together with Soil Food Web School. It's a study at your own pace course. You can sign up at any time through the Soil Food Web School website and take this course, Introduction to Existence Restoration. If you don't know how to find any of these things, you can go to erc.earth, find our education page and you'll be linked to these courses there. Then there's a few volunteering opportunities. There is a long-term volunteering opportunity through the EU Solidarity Corp for younger people in Spain, in Kenya. Actually, don't know what you're seeing. This is, is this Karomi River? Yes, yes. Karomi River is looking for a volunteer to combine your zoology and ecology knowledge. And there is, there are some shorter and long-term volunteering roles in Brazil currently available. Again, Karomi River is looking for more volunteers. The Arabuco Farm is looking for volunteers. Also in Kenya and in Costa Rica, there are ongoing volunteer opportunities at the ERC there. I usually ask for funds and donations. This time specifically, Sal, who was going to talk about his ERC, I'd like to point out that each ERC has the possibility to donate directly to them on our website, erc.earth. If you go to their page, it might be confusing. There's a big orange or teal blue donate button. It's donations to the movement as a whole. But on the page, but halfway, you'll see a little green donate button. And that's a donation straight to the ERC. If you are very keen on supporting a particular initiative, you can use that donate button and we'll make sure those funds gets to this ERC so that they can use them for. Sal wrote down in his, in his system, all the things that he would like to do with this funding that he gets. And that's it. That's all for my side for this introduction. And yeah, if you follow us, if you go to erc.earth, you'll see all the other opportunities that are out there. You can meet some of the other ERCs on there. Make sure you follow us on social media. Almost daily things are being posted from some of the great activities that take place around the world. And our newsletter, of course, brings lots of death, but you're probably here because you've received our newsletter, because that's how we reach most people. Geet is coming in. Lots of ERCs here. Oh, that's pretty cool. I now give the floor to John. John, reflect on what you wish to reflect on, please. Hello, everyone from Dubai. I have been now for the, this is the ninth day that I've been here for the convening of the parties of the United Nations Framework Convention on Climate Change. And I wasn't involved in the direct negotiations between the countries, but inside events for many different countries and with many of the organizations that the camps and communities work with and also the common lands partners. And the special host for me was the four per 1,000 soil carbon initiative that was created by the French government. And I gave them a keynote speech on their opening day of their partners meeting, which went very well. So I was pretty happy about that. But I think if you read the news, you're going to find that while there were incremental things that took place, probably it's not terribly dramatic what's going to come out of this. And I think it highlights the fact that we really all need to just realize we're going to have to do it. People are going to have to do it. Whatever's happening at these meetings or in political discussions or in scientific discussions or policy discussions, they're all theoretical. So they're not really quite the same as if you're building a compost file or you're planting out food forests or botanical sanctuaries or you're rewilding. All of those things or you're restoring the hydrological function, clearing rivers, restoring rivers, making sure that there's no erosion. I mean, the easiest thing we can do is stop the erosion. So by taking on that challenge, not only are we doing it, which is going to protect us, our families, our communities, but it's creating huge value. So if the world doesn't understand it yet, they will soon. So anybody who understands this needs to internalize the understanding that humanity as a whole must restore all degraded lands on the earth, that this is mitigation and adaptation to climate change. This is lowering surface temperatures. This is infiltrating and rehydrating dehydrated biomes and we can lower the risks from floods and wildfires and mudslides. And we can also create food security for everybody. So I think this is what we really need to do and what we actually must do if we are to succeed and we have the power to do it. And there is a question always people talk about how much does it cost? What's the price? I think we need to turn that argument on its head and realize what's the price of not doing this. We can't afford not to do this and we need to learn how to really also understand emotionally and philosophically and spiritually that this is a duty. This is not like an optional thing if we decide, oh well I really don't, people are not reacting. So I'm not gonna do it if they're not gonna do it. I don't think this is gonna work because if we don't choose to restore earth systems, we're going to have terrible consequences we're already experiencing this. So today we're gonna hear about a very special place in North America and about a very long-standing group of people who have been working in this area of stewarding the lands. And if we read the history, it's terrifying. So I remember as a teenager reading Black Elk Speaks, which is about this region about what happened to the Lakota people and also reading about what happened to the Bison. So this is gonna be very interesting. I hope you enjoy it and I'll stay around afterwards as long as the technology works and we can talk and anybody who has any questions about the COP I could try to answer them. And thank you so much. Welcome to the fireside chat. Thanks. So it is up to us and I think that is true. I think leaders are likely to follow people that are doing well and I think I'm doing right. And I think that's what's happening at the CRCs. We're now gonna go to Sal, Sal Genjarelli if you can turn on your camera. Talk to us from the Black Hills in South Dakota where, well let's just say bad land management over decades is degrading the landscape and you want to work with the Bison and the people, the Lakota tribes that are there and with your own skills to connect with people and to connect people with nature hoping to restore that landscape and allow it to bounce back which I think you are convinced that will work. That's, it's up to you now, Sal to tell what you're doing, Sal. Thank you, Peter and John. Yeah, so I definitely wanted to share as we always do, when I do a presentation I always start with gratitude and I'm very grateful for the Bison. I'm grateful to the Lakota people. I'm definitely grateful to the Lakota family that adopted me at a young age and then started to teach me and train me really to understand these principles and then now applied them to the land. So, so much gratitude for all that supports this movement that I'm a part of and really all of us kind of like John says getting our feet on the ground and getting our hands in the dirt and actually doing the work and not just debating it or trying to figure out how to monetize it but actually doing it. So I'm really grateful for this group and to be a part of this group as well. So I actually created a little presentation of PowerPoint which I haven't done in a very long time but I did it again and I'd like to share that with you as part of this so we'll see if that works for you all and I'm hoping you see the first slide and we'll start. It's gone through kind of a big iteration of different names and different ideas along the way. We actually started as a small project called the Bison Project and then eventually it became Bison People Land and there's different ways to think of that. It's not like Disneyland. It was actually gonna be hyphenated at one point recognizing that the Bison, the people in the land are all significant in the organization that we have developed. And this organization is about land regeneration and it's about human beings' relationship to the land and this ancient kind of fundamental, let's say indigenous way that people have interacted with for millennia before the modern age to actually create balance in health on the land and I'll talk a little bit more about my background and kind of the philosophy that I come from but the idea is that the Bison are a incredibly important species for this landscape and that when people interact with the Bison in the healthy way, supporting the Bison, the Bison essentially manage the land so it really depends upon human beings understanding their place and their role within the ecosystem as a managing species that manage other species that manage the ecosystem. So returning the Bison to this place where historically has been for tens of thousands of years if not longer is a really important part of what we're all about and to introduce you to kind of the Bison people land team obviously that's me over there in the left of your screen and there's my wife Erica who is really our operations manager and she is an instrumental part of this whole organization and she really does take care of the Bison in incredible ways so much so I think they recognize her almost as part of the herd. I'll again talk about my background a little bit but I was married into the Lakota tribe. This is the Native American peoples of this land and my sons are all Lakota and my wife from that marriage that was now what, 17, 18 years ago so it's been a while but I've remarried to Erica and our daughter is Leila so Anthony is my oldest son from that marriage and he is half Lakota obviously among other things and he is really another instrumental piece of this organization and he, among his brothers and his uncles and a few other people are part of bringing the Bison people land onto the Native American reservation called the Pine Ridge Indian Reservation here in South Dakota. Leila's my daughter with Erica and she is another instrumental part of caring for the Bison in the land here that we live on. I also have my son Adrian who is very much a part of it and tends the Bison oftentimes here and he's part of bringing it onto the local reservation and we have Alex Travers, we call him Feathers and his support staff role is really around website and education. He is an incredible nature connection educator and he works really well with children. He's done that for decades now bringing kids upon the land, teaching them about the ecology and human being interaction with that. So, and Janet Dowell who I didn't have a picture for but some of you know her from ERC she was the one that actually introduced me to ERC and she is in kind of a support consultation role with us as well. So her name is definitely worth mentioning here in the team. So what's the vision of Bison people land? You know, the philosophy we come from is that people are integral part of the landscape and it definitely is in contradiction to maybe the modern perspective of people being a detriment to the ecology and to the earth but the indigenous perspective is that we're actually an essential component to the environment. So the focus, one of the focus is the people and actually helping people to renew this relationship that we have historically had with the environment and how to relate to it, how to connect to it, how to think about it, how to express that connection in ways that actually makes the ecology abundant and well. So obviously, you know, the philosophy side of it you know and the education side of it the knowledge side of it is only as good as the application. So we have to put this understanding into practice and that's where the ecological restoration of the land to really support the stable biodiversity and the growth of, you know, abundance within the ecosystem. And I know we all know that story very well, you know, water systems, soil systems, the plant systems, the animal systems and this is where we get into actually working with the Bison. And the Bison are essential to this landscape and for many different reasons in what they do and how they interact with the landscape if we manage the Bison correctly then the Bison essentially managed the rest of the ecology well. You know, that's not a hundred percent, you know, it's not an absolute but it is a definitely a cornerstone of this ecology to say the Great Plains area of North America. So again, my background, I was essentially adopted by the Lakota tribe but in particular, there's family group within the Lakota tribe, what we call the Woptukah, Teoshpa'eh, the Woptukah lineage. And they are people that, as John even mentioned, you know, they are recognized as people that really hold a deep spiritual connection to the land. And one of the people of this lineage is actually Black Elk, who was written about in the book Black Elk Speaks where he described what happened to the Lakota people as they were forced through a genocidal process disconnecting from the land, the extermination of the Bison. And there's different family groups within the Lakota people who have really held onto the traditional understanding the wisdom of the earth and really ultimately the wisdom of the philosophy and spirituality. And that was my background. I was brought into that when I was 15 years old and I've basically been educated in that ever since. So now going on 35 plus years. So a lot of times when people hear of the Lakota traditions or even Native American or indigenous traditions, but I'd say particularly Lakota traditions, it has a lot of like spiritual connotations, you know, which then kind of gets translated into a religious mindset. But what it really comes down to is actually more pragmatic ecological understanding and how to apply that is something that we're working on understanding and kind of reactivating it into a physical doing as compared to that kind of philosophical idea of like spirituality. It is much more pragmatic. It's much more about here's the steps that you need to take to manage this land until really live as human beings in a good way with the earth. So that's where I come from and that has heavily, heavily influenced the Bison People Land Project. It's probably the thing that maybe sets this project apart from maybe a more mainstream scientific ecological restoration project. So our team obviously is really diverse. This is just kind of the key stakeholders which I have named as part of the team, but it actually is quite big and it's supported by people from all over the world. It centers on this landscape and the Lakota people as the indigenous people of this region. And of course that includes my children and my sons and their extended family on the reservation. But the team actually is really big and it's allies from all over the world. And our background where we started was really with education and we've done nature connection camps here in the Badlands, the Prairie and then the Black Hills. This is kind of this Western region of South Dakota for over 10 years with a real focus on the Native American youth, particularly from Pine Ridge, bringing them into nature and having them learn the skills of the natural world. And what maybe some people would call bushcraft skills or survival skills, everything from tracking to fire making to shelter building, these types of activities which maybe the surface level looks like kind of a survival type of focus, but it actually is more about the connective element behind it. When you know how to build or do a fire from friction, rubbing sticks together, your awareness of the environment is profoundly affected. And who you see yourself as as part of that environment is actually credible in the ways that it shifts. So it's not about just building fire and knowing how to utilize fire and making fire these kind of primitive or traditional methods, but it is actually more about the connections that are instilled within that person so that they know place, that they know who they are and that they kind of enact this connection into the world in a bigger way. So one of the big things that has happened within the bison people land is in 2019, we did purchase a private property here in the Black Hills, 55 acres now in total. And this is where the center of activities are taking place for the eco restoration and as well as the educational camps that we actually host and provide. So the bison, the bison is a really fascinating creature where it comes from, how it's migrated around the world. The different stories that go with the bison and the indigenous perspective is definitely different than the mainstream kind of evolutionary perspective. But the understanding is that the bison has been around for a very long time and that it actually originated in a different area, different land, they say actually Southeast Asia and that it migrated around the world and that it ended up in North America from this great migration. And at one point, essentially bison were all over the Northern Hemisphere and they actually still are there. The human being interaction with bison started a very long time ago with that. We have this really incredible history with the bison and the reason that can be verified is even the earliest records of human being expression of that is in these caves in France where these cave paintings of bison were done 36,000 years ago. So people have this kind of history with bison, but it also, there's something I say that really stirs within people when they come into contact with bison or they see bison. And some kind of primal ancient memory that is kind of brought to the surface of this connection, this respect, this love, this caring, this awe that the bison bring into our lives. So for one really appreciate just what these animals are. The bison in North America, there's actually three different types. Well, there's actually technically more than three types, but often the two that get the most acknowledgement is the plains bison and the wood bison. There's also the mountain bison. So these bison are slightly different. If to the untrained eye, you probably wouldn't notice much of a difference, but these bison at one point were somewhere around 50 million. This is let's say pre-colonization in the early time when bison were not affected by the movement of the immigrants across the land the estimate is in the tens of millions. And it is estimated to be the largest aggregation of animals known in recorded history. There was just so many bison. And by the 1900s, the bison were basically driven to extinction or near extinction through aggressive depopulation. And that was primarily done by the US government and supported by the US government to control the Native American indigenous populations who heavily relied on bison for food, for materials, for shelter. Really every need was in some ways tied to the bison. And by eliminating the bison, the Native American peoples could no longer sustain their lifestyle, their traditions and they were forced to be put onto the Native American reservations. So when we get into the indigenous ecology understanding, their understanding comes from this really ancient wisdom that has developed over time in their relationship to this animal. And the understanding is that human beings again are a really essential part of managing the ecosystem. And when done well, then the ecosystem really thrives and flourishes. So the traditions, especially with the Lakota are centered on how do we manage the bison in a good way and how do we prioritize the balance and the abundance of the earth so that you could really say that we're all wealthy and wealth in this point of view is in about material items. Wealth is about the abundance of life, the experience of life and that we as not just human beings but we as in the entire ecology are part of this abundance principle. And the bison are recognized to really hold that abundance principle that it seems to be when the bison interact with the land that the abundance of the land in many, many different ways increases. So if we're managing the bison, the bison essentially manage the rest of the ecosystem and that the kind of correct support around the bison populations and their movements creates balance for the soil, the plants and the animals. So the bison that they were eliminated was obviously a significant thing for the indigenous people and kind of parallels their experience with the dominating culture at that time, the bison were eliminated and essentially in many ways, so were they. When the first contact was made in this region with the US government, they created treaties. And the one that oftentimes gets the most focus is the 1868 treaty which they established the Great Sioux Reservation, which they said is this is unseceded territory of the Lakota people. And it actually encompassed the Western South Dakota but it also included areas of five different states, Nebraska, Wyoming, Montana, South Dakota, North Dakota. So this area was considered the native territory or the Lakota territory. But then unfortunately, as the story goes, General Custer in the seventh Calvary made an expedition into the Black Hills technically illegally and discovered gold. And once that word got out, there was a gold rush into the Black Hills and the treaty had to be reworked, which was really manipulated to the point where the native peoples were forced onto the reservations out into the plains and away from the Black Hills. And the reservation has its own history, but the recognition is that this land that we're residing on right now is actually still technically unseceded land of the Indian territory, the 1868 treaty. So people oftentimes ask, are you on a reservation? And it's kind of a really complex answer if you get into it, but the simple answer is yes, technically we are still on the reservation. And so much so that in the 1980s, the Supreme Court of the United States agreed that this land had been stolen from the Lakota, that there was no justification really in how it was manipulated and that they were awarded a $1.2 million settlement for a payment, if you will, for the Black Hills and for this territory, which the tribes never took. So, and they still haven't to this day, the tribes refused to because they said, basically if we accept that money, then we have agreed to the sale and we're not agreeing to the sale. So they don't want the money they want at least some of the land, which many of the tribes have been actually pursuing, reclaiming and buying back the land. And there's, for those who know, there's a kind of a bigger movement with this land back where the indigenous people, not just of the Lakota, but of other tribes of North America are looking to have that land returned to them so that they can manage it with these traditional practices and really address these issues that we're talking about, ecological restoration, but with their understanding in their history as connected to that particular piece of land. So ultimately the land was confiscated illegally and the tribes are still interacting with that. And this is part of the story of Bison people land because we're a Lakota indigenous organization as well. So we have this aspect of what we're working with, which I think is only correct, especially in places where there are indigenous people looking to work directly with that and to make sure that the understanding that they traditionally hold is very well respected. And of course that's my background anyways, which it makes it no problem for me, but to include that relationship is I'd say a very important element of at least our philosophy. So the pictures you're seeing, basically all the pictures you're seeing are from the landscape that includes that 55 acres. And this particular piece of land, it was really impacted in a number of ways that degraded the landscape. And the first way was primarily the, this land was used as a gold mine. And most of the mining that happened in this particular region was placer mines. So they were, they were panning for gold mostly. There are some slews and there are some maybe heavier equipment in certain areas just down the road. But a lot of the landscape and even our private property here that the boundaries are just the long, the old streams and the rivers, the washes because that was how they set up the claim. And that's how it became private land is that it was just along the waterways where they could pan for gold. So it's kind of interesting when you look at the plots of land, the way that they're shaped because they're very narrow, very long. And at the center point of that typically is a river or a wash, what used to be a river. So after gold was discovered in great abundance up in the Northern Black Hills, the mining pretty much stopped. Everybody moved up to a place called Deadwood. If you've heard of that, it's a very historic and well-known town. And that's where the mining really, really took another level. And it's still actually an operation there to some degree. So after the mine was closed, then it became Catalan. And that's obviously the transition from the bison at this point in time, the bison went from that 50 million population down to about 500 in the entire country. And the estimates that it was definitely in the hundreds and it was really just a key couple of people who saved the bison and started to breed them and protect them, including some zoos, but Yellowstone National Park, Custer State Park later, a very kind of well-renowned person within the group was actually a Texas rancher by the last name of Nightingale, his wife and him saved the Southern Range bison from extinction, basically gathering up calves that were bleeding or crying out for their mothers that had been murdered and then raising them by hand and returning the bison. So the bison population was essentially gone in the early 1900s and cattle grazing became the main animal, if you will, that walked on this land that ate. And we'll talk about this, but the cattle have significantly different behavior patterns in bison. So again, in this land from 1900 to 1980, there was actually a sawmill in this region, right actually in our front yard, so to speak. And this was the main site for harvesting trees and so on. And then eventually you get some private ownership in this area and that includes us at this point, but really there's probably about four families that live in this entire area. Most people are, this is their vacation home, their summer home or their getaway location. So there's actually, it's not very populated. Most people, they find the area very harsh and the winters actually here are very harsh. This morning being one of those, it's very, very cold. You can get down into definitely the negative fifties we've seen with wind chill factors, that's Fahrenheit. So it's pretty much, I think the same in Celsius, but the winters here can be brutal. You can get snowed in for days at a time, even up to a week before you can even attempt to get out. So it's not a hospitable landscape in the winter, but the bison love it. They actually enjoy the winter more than the summer, I'd say, oftentimes when it's cold and they start playing and jumping around and having fun. So yeah, us, we own at this point 23 hectares and we're at a population of $6,400 feet, somewhere around 1900 kilometers. And again, those degrading factors, some of them I already spoke to, but this is the area, if you could see, at least part of the black hills from my aerial view, then this is what the black hills look like. It's not a very big area. It's a range of mountains that rose up out of the earth about 400 million years ago. And it's, I believe it's about 80 miles across and 120 miles vertical or Latin length. So it's really a tiny area, kind of an island of mountains within the prairie. And the Lakota, they call this the heart of all there is. And if you look at the aerial view, it actually looks like the heart, not the symbolic heart that we have like Valentine's Day, but like a human heart or an animal heart has that shape. So they say this is the heart of all that there is and it's a significant location for many tribes, not just Lakota. Well, one thing that happened in this circle that you see is what we call the Jasper fire. And this massive fire burned about 20 years ago and where you don't see trees within that circle is pretty much where that fire burnt from. And that has obviously severely affected the ecosystem. And the trees are starting to come back. Some trees obviously survived, but the way that that fire burned and the intensity of it as many of these fires tend to be in this day and age, the fuel that was available for that fire was just incredible. And fortunately, we have this area, Aspen, those nursery plants that have come in to rehabilitate the land and start creating the habitat for the pines to come in after them. So that's well on its way. And in this little spot that we have obviously supported by the bison. So another degrading factor is having cows as compared to bison and elk on the land actually is a huge factor for this landscape because cows, their preference is to be by water sources and actually start eroding or create more erosion around water sources. It's said that the European cow, its ancestry is more from something like a water buffalo, something that wants to be in the water where the bison, they really do not like to stay by water very often. Their priority is really to drink and then to get up on high places and to get in the open spots where they can see. So they don't spend long at the waterways. The hooves of European cattle as compared to bison are vastly different. The soft hooves of the European cattle actually pack the land and it creates kind of this hard pan which prevents seed to infiltrate the soil. And over time that is really detrimental where the bison hooves are sharp and they break up the soil and they allow the seeds to be planted from the grasses and the wildflowers, even the trees so that they regenerate. So these are a number of the factors that have impacted this particular land that we're on. So what are our activities? Well, we're looking at obviously restoring this land and increasing the biodiversity and health and the way we do that is through our human management to the human impact and really understanding that and coming to understand that in a very practical way taking the teachings and maybe the more philosophical elements that come from the Lakota Sioux and applying it into a relatively small area of land but doing that in that kind of connected spirit and understanding and learning how does this work well? And what we need to do in this day and age especially with the fencing and with the systems that we're dealing with, with roads, with limited movement. So we're doing that now and we've done it with three bison. We purchased three of them in 2019. One male, one bull and then two females. And this is actually a picture of the bull that we purchased. He is what's called a baby bottle bison which means that for whatever reason his mother was not able to care for him and he would have to be hand-fed. So we bottle fed him for pretty much about five months. He started to graze and he slowly got adopted into the little herd of the other two bison. The females were a year older than him and they're very, very social creatures. So they really need to be around one another. So they were very quickly paired up and yeah, it's a growing thing. It's a growing thing. And the male didn't pregnant one of our females so we do have actually a new calf that was born here on the land and it's a she. So yeah, she's really grown and she no longer looks like the cinnamon phase that you see there on your slide. She's now getting the darker colors and she's quite a bit bigger. But this is how they look when they're probably about a week, week and a half old. We are managing the bison. These are our two females, by the way. We call them 505 and 437 for obvious reasons. When we bought them, they had these air tags as part of the herd they came from. So we have a mess with them. I think they actually might like them to some degree like their earrings. And it's easy to identify them. 505 is definitely the matriarch and she's the leader and 437 is the mom to the new bison calf. So she did a great job delivering her first calf and it was pretty wonderful to see, just coming upon the little herd with a new baby and knowing that 437 did that all on her own which is another reason why bison and actually cattle are significantly different. Cattle need a lot of support and birthing because of the genetic manipulation over time. As compared to bison which pretty much go off, have their babies and next thing you know, you have another baby with a mom. So the management system though that we're using is holistic management with rotational grazing. We have a number of paddocks within this small area and we need to move them on a fairly regular basis throughout the spring into the summer and in the fall. And then during the winter, we do have to supplement because for various reasons, one being that our kind of water systems, our food systems for the animals need that support in this area. So they're even just, you know, getting them moved and snow that's six feet deep with drifts is not too easy. So we keep them in one area where we just feed them from that area and they seem to enjoy it because they don't have to do much work but that's the condition that we're in right now with this particular area. So the goal is obviously eco restoration, you know, utilizing the bison as a means to accelerate that and making sure that people have the opportunity to really restore, you know, humanity's old relationship with the bison extending around at least the northern hemispheres, you know, recognizing that people had this whether they're European, Asian or North American, you know, this is something that people have for millennia and, you know, giving that opportunity to connect and actually feed a bison or come into, you know, kind of close proximity with bison in a safe way is part of what we're able to provide. And as we've said, you know, using indigenous techniques and understandings but also using modern scientific approach, you know, soil measurements, the different opportunities to look at this from a more scientific perspective is something that we're including as well. And definitely we've been very supportive in that with and by Janet Dowell, she's one of the consultants around that. So we wanna verify that this is working not just through observation but also through measurement as well. So we're working with the modern scientific approach. So what do we do right now? Well, we've been hosting camps here at this location since we purchased it for four years. And these are nature connection camps. These are experiential camps in different ways that bring people into relationship to themselves, to nature, into community. And this is, you know, something that we've been doing for now actually over 10 years in different regions but in particular this greater Western South Dakota. We built up the infrastructure to do so because when we moved onto this land, there was essentially what's a double wide trailer. You know, it's a home, but it is underneath it has axles and wheels. So it's not a well-built sturdy home but it is sufficing for us to get established here. And in that we started to build up the infrastructure to support 40 or more people at a time including the toilet showers, outdoor teaching spaces. We utilize teepees oftentimes, you know, as a temporary shelter. We have camping sites and a camp kitchen. And we've done, you know, we've done quite a bit of work in this area, the different camps that we teach the language of the land camp. Every year we sponsor a nature connection camp experience for the Lakota Sioux children.  It is open to others as well. Anyone that wants to attend it can but for the Lakota people it's free. And I would really say all of our teaching events, there's no charge, no cost for tribally-enrolled Indigenous people in particular the Lakota people. So we make it as accessible as possible, honoring and recognizing that my relationship to where these teachings come from.  They're actually one of the most, the poorest people in the poorest county in the United States is on the reservation and the Pine Ridge Reservation. So we make sure that we support that relationship. We do the helpers gathering camps, which is in particular camps, focus more on the spiritual side of the nature connection. So it's part of the group that we have that really we started with called the Helpers Mentoring Society. We're actively growing the bison herd. We're looking at acquiring a couple more bulls and cows as well, you know, with the goal of breeding the animals and growing the herd and expanding the land base onto, especially the reservation. So in my son's family and their extended family, they have a square mile, what they call a section, 640 acres of land. And that's one of the locations that we're looking at expanding the bison upon, which could hold vastly greater numbers. So there's an expansion process into the formal reservation, not just the unsheeded territory here. And we're doing plant and tree restoration in particular. Some of the fruit bearing trees of this region, which are incredibly hardy, choke cherry, that's really the main fruit tree of this area. And there's some plums, but the average fruit bearing tree, like an apple tree or something, it just can't endure the weather of this location. So we have to work with the indigenous plants.  So the aspen trees grow up in groves and that provides the habitat for the next wave of pine trees to start growing in that shade. And eventually the pine trees shade out the aspen groves which die back, but the root system stays alive. So we're working and managing all that. We also have the affiliates. We're working with a number of different organizations, including the National Bison Association, the Dakota Territory Bison Association, the Intertribal Bison Council, obviously Helpers Mentoring Society as the main organization that's supporting bison people and echo restoration communities. So those are our main associations and affiliates. And what we're looking at, as I said, we're looking at expanding the bison herd onto the Indian Reservation, working with my sons. Part of working with the bison is that, they're both viewed as wildlife and as livestock. And the livestock aspect of working with bison is a relatively new, let's say experience. People, cattle ranchers who have maybe ranch cattle for generations are actually slowly converting to raising bison as a livestock. Bison meat, as many people know, is incredible. It's very, very healthy. It has, you know, for those who interact with it that way, meat has huge health benefits, health benefits. And so a lot of people over the course of the last really 20 years, the ranchers have been converting more and more to bison. We're looking at expanding that because that can actually also provide not just ecological restoration for the indigenous communities here, but also a source of income. So it's financially as well for people working the animals, but also for the sale of the meat, the hide, the different ways that the animal has historically been used in every sort of way that is imaginable support. The people, so that's an ongoing thing. And, you know, we're always looking to develop the organization affiliates, how we can tap in and link together to create stronger networks. You know, what do we need? Well, we're always, you know, looking for how do we make this work better? And one of the things obviously is, you know, structure out here is so important. And having a structure that can endure the weather for three or four seasons is something that we're still developing and working on. And in that way, we can actually teach more people and hold bigger camps, have more opportunity for people to come support the land, the restoration, education, and of course, the bison. With that, you know, we're managing bison with fencing now and it's part of the condition we find ourselves in, you know, bison, the imagination is that they could roam across North America free and wild, migrating with the seasons, which would be ideal, but the reality is is we're combined into these small areas with fencing that has to hold the bison and really protect them as much as protect the general public. The bison, they're wild animals, which means that they can be emotionally reactive. They're pretty calm, they're, you know, like all of us, I would say, like they don't really want trouble, but when they sense danger, then they react to that. And that's whether it's perceived a real danger that still react to it. And so being powerful, big animals, you know, even weighing up to a ton, two thousand pounds, some of the bigger males can get up to, the females being somewhere around, you know, 13, 1500 pounds, they could go through a fence very easily. So having the right kind of fencing and then also having areas that they can rotationally graze and move is part of what we're working on. So cross fencing and, you know, getting them access to water within that limited space is also part of the, I guess you could say the challenge because a lot of the irrigated land, a lot of the land with the water, the streams has already been leased by cattle ranchers and it's harder to get access to. So really, in this area drilling wells, fortunately works that the table level is not too deep. And that's something that we're meeting in different areas of this landscape. And as we go, you know, we're looking at these different aspects of eco restoration. So supporting, you know, these different incentives would, yeah, it's always appreciated. This is a picture of our bull. Unfortunately, our bull that we hand raised, we actually had to cull. And part of the reason being is that he was not very fearful of people. And I don't mean like that in a bad way. I think the animals have to have a certain level of caution with people. And I would actually say kind of a respect. They're so powerful and they're so big that one swing of their heads could actually severely injure and even kill a human being. And it would be nothing to another bison. It's actually the way that they communicate. They talk through clanking their heads and their horns. And it doesn't bother them. But to a human being, even if you were, you know, in protective equipment, you might not survive it. So being that and then being that he got quite aggressive and he started to push the fences and really damage the system we had to cull them. But like I said, we're looking at getting another bull or two where the ages are far enough apart where they won't compete against one another. But kind of that they can support one another to grow and develop. Because I think in the wild, the older bison bulls oftentimes kind of keep the younger bison bulls in line and make sure that they're not getting too crazy. So that's part of what we're working on, expanding the herd and making sure that we can keep regenerating this incredible animal and make sure that it expands and that the bison return to North America. And with that, you know, making sure that we have the equipment, the expertise to manage these incredible animals. So here's a couple of links, my number, email and then a little more about the bison project or bison people land. We don't have an official website just yet we're still developing that for bison people land but what we do is a page on our farmer business which is Helper's Mentoring Society. And that's under the bison project. So that's the link there if you wanna read more. All right, that's a, yeah, I think that's what I can share at this point. And hopefully that was helpful and informative. Thanks. Like I said, I haven't done PowerPoint in a long time, Peter.  Well, you know, that's the three minutes per slide. Anyway, there's also a page on the ERC community page on the ERC.Earth, you also have a web page there. And have those activities posted on that page too, Sal because maybe you can find new audiences to go and participate in your camps. I saw in the chat one question, which is a very broad one what if you don't have access to bison how do you start restoring an ecosystem like this? Don't know if you can ask that question maybe others can, but if there's anyone with a question, raise your hand. You can find it in your thing with all the icons. There's something, there's a button there with reactions and that has raised my hand. I'm just raised mine, possibility.  And otherwise, the big question, how would you do this if you didn't have bison, Sal? Yeah, you know, so this is where I think you go back to the plants, the plant and especially the trees in this region, you know, this area which has been impacted by fire which would have normally been much more wooded than the trees that rehabilitate the environment are kind of essential. And as I've named that aspen is one of those trees which is a nursery tree, you know, and for those who know about the aspen, they're really incredible trees very much like the bison. They have a ability to endure and their job is when wildfires come through, they get burned too, but it doesn't burn the roots and then they come back and it's understood that the biggest, if not one of the biggest organisms, singular organism on the planet is an aspen grove in Colorado and it covers, I believe, miles. And it is at least 80,000 years old. So these are the species that we look to where we say, okay, they're enduring species that have this kind of place within the ecosystem to actually manage the rehabilitation of that location. So working with something like the aspen groves is a great way to help heal the land. Now out in the Great Plains, it's a little different because aspen don't grow there, but you do have certain trees like the cottonwood where if you manage the cottonwood right, then you're gonna also affect the water systems tremendously because the cottonwoods, they love water, they love just drawing out water up and too many cottonwoods is actually really detrimental but none is also detrimental. So making sure that there is the right amount of cottonwoods where the streams and the rivers can flow, but they're not eroding away and just becoming these big washes which pull all the top soil off every time that rains. So those are a couple of suggestions I could offer into the mix. And Bison, honestly, we've been in a big experiment with this in the last three, four years with getting our bison and we went to the national conference, we went to the local conferences before we purchased the bison, before we took these steps and there's a lot of different approaches to this and everyone that has done this will really say there is no right way to do it. We're all figuring it out as we go and we started with a very small herd and a very small plot of land and figuring out the systems and everyone who's done it in a massive way has all come back and said that is actually very smart. They all said you're doing it the right way because we did it with like a hundred bison and we had to figure all this out and it really crashed and burned a number of times until we did. So it doesn't actually take very much to start with a couple of bison on a small plot of land. You just wanna make sure that your exterior fencing can handle the bison. And funny enough, most people think it's gotta be like a fortress and it really doesn't. We have five strand barbed wire and our animals respect that and as long as they have what they need, they really, they don't mind that. The only difficulty I had or we had with it was obviously our bull when he hit a certain age and he didn't have an older bull to manage his behavior. So he went a little bit too aggressive for what we could deal with. And so we had to adjust for that but we're continuing on. Yeah, that's what I can offer in the moment. There's a few more questions in the chat but John raised his hand, John. Right. Well, thank you so much for that presentations. Excellent. And I think it might be interesting to consider having a workshop for natural building. There are some ways to dig down below the surface and you're at altitude, you're at almost 2,000 meters. So this is really a good way to do it. You can go down and this about a meter and a half to two meters below the surface, it'll always be about 50 degrees or 45 degrees Fahrenheit, about 12 to 15 degrees centigrade. And then from there, you could use really big rocks and you could use straw bale. You can do a lot of things for thermal mass and then you can have passive solar going in and you can have active photo boutiques to have electricity if you need it. But I think if you put it with a lot of thermal mass and suck in the heat, you could really keep it warm even in the winter. So what about having a next year when the spring comes have a workshop and organize people to come out to build an example of that, maybe for food storage or for whatever you want in the beginning. And but once you know these techniques you can just use it for bigger and bigger things. I think that a lot of people would probably go. I think we know in Paradise, California huge numbers of people came to help out there. So I might want to try that. Yeah, I've actually been researching that and I think that's to me one of the most viable options for sure because again, the landscape being as harsh as it is or shelters of some sort make the most sense. And I've reached out to one organization, the guy to see if they would actually come and do a workshop here. But that's as far as I've been able to take it. I don't have the network of people that have that skill or that knowledge. And I'm happy to work with it. I just don't know the people that would actually bring the skills. And it's another thing that this is a little side note but on the Pine Ridge Reservation there's a huge housing crisis. And even my own family on the reservation there's like 18 people in a two, three bedroom house because there's just not enough housing. So you end up with these situations. So actually having kind of more natural structures for people to reside in would be an incredible thing as well if that would be possible. And the reservations is one of those places where it actually is as compared to some of the legal issues that you might find off the reservation with something like that. So I'm very interested in that. Yeah, so if anybody has any recommendations around natural building, definitely earth shelters, let me know. All right. I know there's a lot of people and I will help you in any way I can. Please get in touch with me. You know, to find each other, John and Sal, there's a few questions in the chat. One very basic one is the natural lifespan of a bison, Sal. Yeah, and so in nature, in somewhere around 15 to 20 years, they have been recorded in captivity living up to about 25 years. The oldest bison, I believe it's like 27 that's ever been recorded. And that was in, I believe the Bronx Zoo. So in nature, obviously lifespans tend to be a little bit shorter, but the 20 year mark is kind of like a fully grown adult bison that has lived a very long life. All right. Thanks. A question from Alyssa. Sal, have you seen more water retention over the land due to wallowing? Yes, yeah, that's actually another, one of those aspects of the bison cattle don't wallow. So the bison, they create wallows. And I wish, if I had the picture, the right picture, you could see it back behind me. There's actually a couple of wallows where they'll get on the dirt and they'll roll and they use their horns to dig up. And they just like laying in the dirt and they take dust baths in it and it creates these indentations where then the water can actually pool up. And it doesn't happen quite the same way because we're up in the hills and the soil's different, but out in the prairie where there's more silica so it's more clay-like, then it actually kind of hardbakes it and it turns it into a clay pool. And then the water's held for much longer up here. It's more fine. And what ends up happening is that it doesn't retain quite so long, but it does happen here for sure and it has shifted the ecology on the water flow pattern significantly, I've noticed. We used to have a lot more runoff that would come down and then the way the landscape here is actually sloped. So this is our backyard. If the picture behind me is essentially the backyard going up into about 23 acres. And it used to be that the water would just rush down and then funnel into a wash and then actually kind of run through our driveway and then down into a stream below us where spring is. And that's just not happening anymore. And I attribute some of that as to the water infiltrating and not just going across the land and actually going into the soil. So yeah, that's been really interesting to see with the bison over the last few years. Okay, another response I think in response to Roof is Bart who says in Europe you can borrow semi-wild herbivores from the European Wildlife Bank with a herd contract. Is anything like that existing Calgary Roof or how do you know in Calgary, U.S.? Yeah, not that I know of at this point in time. You know, the big thing with the bison in this region is definitely with the indigenous, the tribes receiving bison from like Yellowstone where they would normally have just been shot because the bison tried to migrate out of this harsh condition every year. And now they're redistributing these bison off to the indigenous communities. So that's like maybe not quite the same but obviously it's getting the bison back to the land. That's maybe something to consider, Sal. Once your herd grows to start to bring them to other ecosystem restoration projects. Yeah, you teach them how to work with them. Yeah. There's a comment about who's planting seeds. Heidi asks, I think is Heidi, in the uplands are the waters held more by their trace lines? I'm not sure what that really is. Don't actually know what that means, yeah. Yeah. In the uplands are the waters held more but you mean the tracks that bison walk? Is that what you mean? Maybe Heidi, open your microphone and explain what exactly you mean. Like micro rivers from the trails that they make. Yeah, my understanding out in soft like out in Wyoming and such, there's a whole ecosystem that's been lost because of the river, the micro rivers, the fractaling of rivers that's made from their movements across the land. And I was wondering if maybe that's how it works in uplands where the soil is not so soft. Yeah, it's a good question. I would imagine if just looking at the trails that have been made, which we try to limit that to some degree because obviously if a trail becomes a rod, it becomes an erosion site and that can have its own issues but looking at where the patterns of movement are, there's definitely different micro ecosystems that take place. And I haven't actually really thought of that being just part of the trail. I think of it more from the Dung perspective that as they move along and they're creating the waste but that waste is nutrient, so nutrient rich that you can see a difference between where they've moved extensively and where they have it. But I will, yeah, I'll look at that in a deeper way. And I would imagine that these small ruts that are created are actually creating opportunities for water infiltration, which would shift the micro systems in that location. So that's a great question. Another thing to track. Yeah. On my side of the planet, it is 730 and I see people saying that they're, sorry, leaving the call. But there are more questions. Bart, who came up with the suggestion of the Wildlife Bank asked if you vaccinate the animals against brucellosis. Yeah, brucellosis is, it's one of the big issues with cattle and bison and actually elk too, but it causes spontaneous abortions with cattle. So the bison aren't affected by it, the elk aren't affected by it and it's been used as a way to justify the continued suppression of bison herds and by the cattle industry, just to note the cattle industry is huge. It's huge in North America. I think if you think about an industry of me, there's like 200,000 bison that are processed a year and I believe it's somewhere like, it's in the tens of millions of cattle that are processed a year. So bison are very, very low on the priority scale of economics and politics and whatnot. And so the brucellosis issue has been one of the cattle ranchers that have used to say bison are extinct, they're, you know, they need to be eliminated or it's gonna affect the economy. Well, they've developed an immunization for the bison and that is pretty much now, brucellosis is no longer a factor within the bison herd. It's still part of wild elk, but they say while buffalo or excuse me, elk and cattle don't interact that way so there would be no issue with that. And there hasn't been a historic case as far as I know that in abortion, a miscarriage from a cattle from elk has happened. So it's a non-issue at this point. There are a few other issues, especially with sheep and bison. Sheep have a particular virus which they are immune to but bison are not and it can actually kill bison quite easily. They're working on some immunization around that but brucellosis has become a non-issue now that they have a vaccination for it. So it's not throughout the herds anymore. The everlasting tension between modern agriculture and what we're trying to achieve. Albert Bates, the everlasting, why is Albert Bates has the commercial suggestion for you? I'll just read the chat. It occurs to me, Sal, good to do bison biochar, TM, like the dromedary done at COP 28. John, you apparently missed this or she's not speaking about it. Just as good as the Hopi Rain Makers or and then it says camalicious camel dairy farm of 8,500 camels is there in Dubai and they're now chairing camel poo which is previously landfill. Could it be another income stream for bison people land or at least fertilizers for home gardens on the res? And there's a heart from Mick. Anyway, have you ever thought of biocharring the poo from the bisons? I have not, yeah, really fascinated by biochar but I have not tried biocharring the manure. We've used it in many, many different ways including gardening and composting and whatnot and it's really incredible manure, really fertile but I'll have to look into that more for sure. Yeah, that's possible, why not? Everyone read the chat because Albert is inviting you to a meeting tomorrow and then people are leaving again. Any more questions for Sal? Thank you, Heidi and thank you also to Leah for the thanks. Any more questions for Sal? More thank yous. All right, well, the floor is open for anything you would like to discuss. It is a fireside, the fire behind John's still burning those I don't think it's fake. Or are you free to leave of course? Anything you'd like to share extra? I think you talked about it in a great deal but in our preparatory call you also talked about the tribal land and the past and I know there's quite a few of your seas in California. I think John think you're still here. Some people are also actively dealing with this. Is there anything you've learned there that you can share about that indigenous knowledge these are the, or you're doing? You shared a bit about it in your presentation but I thought there was an important point there. Well, so what can I say about it? It's hard to say like which angle to take on it. Yeah, there's thousands. Yeah, I think the main thing is people come in oftentimes to the kind of the, especially from the outside perspective of the Native American through, books like Black Elk Speaks, named their seeker of visions, Fool's Crow books with John Males. So these are very well-known Lakota contributors and authors and they're very spiritual people and they've had a really big impact on kind of like a worldview understanding and getting that transmitted off into the world. So I think when people come into contact with that and I know myself included, it's very interesting. It's very attractive because it's such a different worldview. It's such a different mindset, I guess. And it's a relational mindset. So everything is about how are things related? How am I related to this? And what's the experience of that relationship? And the language itself actually is all about the relationship and the movement of relationship. So the worldview is profoundly different. And I think people hear it as more of a spiritual or philosophical or even a religious mindset, but it's actually incredibly practical. I see pragmatic, and this is an understanding I've gained through the Lakota, but also many indigenous peoples and worldviews is that they don't really have time to waste. My one of my teachers, who we call grandma, she was Victoria Chips was her name, but everyone knew her as grandma relationally, right? She was asked one time, what is traditional? And she thought about it for a while and her answer she came back with is she said, what works? In our worldview, traditional, it's not some obscure process or some idea of what the ancestors did. And we need to continue this tradition. She said traditional and this way of thinking is what works. So it's got to produce results. And I think the relational mindset and the relational perspective is what works for humanity. We could think of that as a traditional way of approaching life in the world that we live in. And again, it can be very philosophical, but when you put it into real world living, like we need to be in relationship to the animals, to the plants, to the soil. And I'm sure, like I talked to certain groups and about this and it's kind of eye-opening and awakening and this group is like, yeah, I'm speaking already to people who understand this. So it's like we kind of have to recognize that the modern perspective is much more objectifying. Even the language is about objects. It's not about relationship. It's oftentimes has maybe a little more power dynamic of authority or control. And it's not a bad thing. It has its place in the world in kind of a way of thinking, but it's not the answer to the problems that we face. So with that, when you're working with indigenous wisdom, it's like, okay, how is this practical? And then when you're working with indigenous people, it has to be relational-based. So a lot of times, we know the stories where some well-intentioned group or organization or person comes into an indigenous community and starts dictating like this is what you need to do because this is what we know. And the indigenous people reject it. They don't like it. And if they try it, it typically doesn't work anyways. I remember one story where they planted big gardens in Africa and then they said, we never do this. And then they found out because the hippos come in once the fruits and the vegetables are ready and they just eat all the, we can't do this because it doesn't work here. And the indigenous people have this knowledge where if we listen to that and we come into a relationship with them, that's where the collaboration, the allyship can really actually work. And then, especially the Lakota, I would say this generally for all indigenous people, but the Lakota are very open to sharing with people that will listen. As they would say that, have ears to listen. Because they want to live, they want the earth to live, they want us to live even, we all wanna live and this is how life can work. So really quickly you find all this information's available, all this understanding's available. And the methods of implementation and the methods of understanding might be slightly different, but when you come in into this dynamic, just know that this relational component is at the core of the dialogue, you exchange the working together. And I think if we approach it like that, man, there's so much that we can learn. And there's so many ways that we can figure out how to implement this for everyone's health and happiness. So yeah, that's a little something I could take. I mean, I could take it in other directions, though, too. Thanks for sharing that wisdom and people are reacting to it in the chat. Speaking about bringing ideas to indigenous people, that's not it, and that's a joke, Sean, but he'd love to discuss the idea of natural building and how this group might help you create a practical workshop to build natural buildings. And then Albert suggests hosting a natural building colloquium. There was one just before the pandemic at Black Range Lodge in, sorry, for Europeans, NM. I actually don't know what's NM in which state is that? NM? New Mexico. Oh, New Mexico. Sorry. There are quite some builders there. So anyway, there's some interest by Albert and John and maybe you guys can connect. New Mexico, thank you about this, if you're interested. Create some relationships before getting started in the area. And I'll leave that to you guys to decide in not putting you in the spot, Sal, offline, but you know how to reach each other. Albert can be reached also through us too. Let me know. He's in our advisory council. But John would like to discuss this with this group. So if you're interested to discuss that with John, I think you'd stick around. And if you're thinking that's beyond me, you feel free to go. It's way past the hour that we promised you. So thank you for being here. Thank you for participating. Again, if you think this is great and you wish to share some of your private resources with Sal, go to our website, find this page and use it to reach out or to donate directly to him. But also you can reach out to him. He'll get the mails directly. And John, if I can leave it to you, if you wish to see if people want to discuss natural building with you. I think Albert's interested. Go ahead. Sal, if you think not ready for that yet, I'm tired after an hour long presentation. Feel free to, of course. But thank you so much for doing this. Thank you for sharing your deep insights and all your knowledge, extensive knowledge about what you're working on. I want to see in the chat, people learned a few things. People will find it quite informative. Thanks. Thank you so much for sharing your insights and knowledge with everyone here.


Live from the Sands Convention Center, Las Vegas, Nevada, extracting the signal from the noise. It's theCUBE, covering HP Discover 2015, brought to you by HP, and now your hosts, Dave Vellante and Jeff Frick. Welcome back to HP Discover everybody, Dave Vellante and Jeff Frick. This is theCUBE, this is day three of HP Discover. Check out HP Discover.Social, it's our new social experience, social digital experience that we're overlaying on theCUBE at HP Discover. Milan Shetty is here as the CTO of HP Storage. Cube, Milan, Milan, good to see you again. Oh, great to be here, it's very exciting. So I got to say, congratulations on what's happening in HP Storage, really impressive what you guys have done. Thank you. You got to be pleased. Thank you, very much pleased. Very much pleased and more happy than I can be and thanks for the compliments. Coming from you, Dave, as a storage industry veteran and industry veteran, feels good. So here's the thing. I like to compliment folks, but at the same time I like to tell our audience sort of what I think. So when you guys said, we're not going to buy an all flash array company, we're not going to do what EMC did, we're not going to do what IBM did, et cetera. We're going to build on three par. I said at the time, well, HP's got no choice. Meg said, we can't make acquisitions, we got to pay down our debt. So they got no choice, but it's kind of a bolt on. You guys, well three par, I used to talk about bolting on thin provisioning. And you know what, they were right. And so the whole industry was really skeptical. Myself included that you could pull this off, but not only did you pull it off, it looks to be, if not the best, one of the best all flash arrays out there. I'm sure you think it's the best. So what did you have to do, CTO of that group? Take us back to the decision point when you said, okay, we've got to do this. Why three par, how three par? Yeah, so, as you said, I've been here before at the club, and I've been at HP now five years. And I joined HP about 10 months prior to what became the three par acquisition. And there were lots of reasons why we acquired three par. And one of the things which we did was we looked at the three par core operating system and everything. In fact, when we acquired three par, three par didn't have a very good flash story. They had a very solid modern operating system. They had a very solid architecture on the software side and also their ASIC side and everything. And they had done a very nice job of what I would call separation of concerns in the architecture, so that they could handle newer media, newer protocols. So now we added file also on three par. They had done this nice, very nice separation of concern in their core software architecture. And we liked that. We liked that when the now famous bidding war was going on between HP and Dell, we were willing, we were not going to lose that bidding war. Not because what they had, where they're shipping with their hybrid arrays or anything, but we knew where the market was going to go. The market was going to go with flash. The market was going to go with unified protocols and everything and that, the operating system, the three par operating system, we were willing to bet on, which is why we paid what we did. And in fact, we were willing to pay even more if the bidding war continued because we liked that operating system. Separation of concerns were fantastic in that architecture and having done storage and also the servers and also operating system a while. We just loved it from a technology standpoint and everything. So in the last five years, right after we acquired three par into 2010, we started working on making it flash capable. Nobody gave us a chance and it was kind of the love to play that underdog. We knew what cards we had. We had the secret play on, here's how we're going to change the operating environment. Here's how we're going to do it. And we released, it's a core three par architecture. Why it's good for flash. It's not only good for flash today with the dollars per gigabyte play which we're running, but as the newer technologies of flash and non-volatile memory technologies are coming, three par is ready for it right now. So the amazing thing about that is when you think about the three par architecture and the chunklets and the spreading, it's optimized for spinning disk. It's solving spinning disk problems, but what was it about the architecture that led you to believe that it was so appropriate for flash? I wonder if you could add some color to that. Yeah, sure. So the three par core architectures around the chunklets and everything was not only good for the disks but flash and also NVM. And I think the way the operating system was structured was a very strong storage operating system. I'll give three big architecture components to it. When they designed, they didn't just take any stack. They were optimization and efficiency was built into the operating system. Every single IO, they did a lot of performance analysis and everything to make sure that there was no overhead on any elements of the stack. It was a very thin operating system stack and everything, IO has to come in and go out very fast. It has to be reliable. So those principles were built in pretty nicely. The second is that in the flash world, it's a latency game. How do you get, it's like the packet delivery. You got to get from point A to point B as quickly as possible with the less route in the way. And the way they designed that platform was on platform is, is that they had algorithms built in the operating system to go from point A to point B, which in today's world would be called machine learning and the big data and everything. That was all in that operating system. It was all about getting to point A to point B as quickly as possible, as reliably as possible, was inherent in their core architecture. So all of the concepts around the machine learning and everything which the big data guys talk about. It's in the OS. So a lot of anticipatory intelligence. It was all in there, it was all in there. It was all in there, which is why we liked it from a media standpoint and flash, NVM and everything. This is the storage operating system of future. That's why we're willing to work with it. Okay, so it was the thin OS, it was the latency algorithms and that other sort of big data. That's right. When we didn't know it was big data. Exactly. And now HP so acquires 3-par. Now I used to talk to David Scott about this all the time. 3-par was barely a profitable company. It would lose a little bit of money and make a little money. It had to pour money into expanding its distribution channels to compete with guys like EMC. So it could never make any money now. And so as a result, it had to manage R&D very tightly. So it comes into HP. So you now inject sort of HP's resources in here. So what did HP classic bring to the table and what was the 3-par piece? Was that a collaboration?  No, I think this is the HP brought the channel, the sales channel, the engineering expertise and everything people who knew operating system. So I'll give an example. So I've been here for HP five years and I can tell you about the customers. When I talk to customers, right? My year number one was, if I could describe in one word was my customer interaction was despair. Customers were do something in storage. Help. You used to be, yeah help. You were great. We still have EVAs, EVAs were great. They were the number one mid-range array until in the 90s, until EMC unseated them, get back on the horse, go on the race. So the year number one, I would describe at Discover was year of despair. And they were like, we want you guys to win. We're buying servers from you. You're number one in servers. But you know what you attach on the storage side is like back, so that was my year of despair. Year number two was year of hope. Well, and I call it year of hope because HP had acquired three-par and everyone in the technology community thought that that was the coolest operating system standpoint. And you know what HP did during that time was HP's got an operating system DNA. When we increase the three-par R&D staffing, we didn't have to train a lot of people how an operating system works or they could just learn the three-par operating system and say that this is a kick-ass operating system. We could just hire people quickly because they already existed at HP.  We just increased the R&D from three-par just dramatically in the first two, three, four years. People, just mostly people, mostly people. And the second element of that was they, we invested a lot in the equipment for testing, interop because storage business is all about interop and everything. So we put in a lot of money around the interop which three-par as a startup could not afford. So we added more people in, we added the R&D and most important, the most important aspect of all of this was customers. Customers wanted HP to win. Customers wanted HP storage to win. Customers wanted HP to regain the lead. The channel wanted to regain to win and that's like a perfect storm. Good technology, people. So you had despair, hope, what was year three? Yeah, so year three was optimism because what was happening was we introduced the mid-range. So all of the tier one features of three-par at the mid-range cost point. And that was the year of optimism is because there were customers who would walk in and go, don't screw up this acquisition. Good technology. Because we have some little bit of a checkered relationship with acquisitions in 75 years, some were good and some were not so good. So the hope was turning into optimism but there was a between year two and year three. There was the spirit of that just don't screw this acquisition up, we're interested to buy it. So year number three was the year of optimism. We bought the high-end features to the mid-range. So they were like, oh yeah, yeah, you're doing something good here. I'm optimistic about HP's future. So that was kind of a big trend which was going. Then the year number four was excitement because we moved from optimism that we brought the cost vector to the three-par but we introduced flash. And in the year number four, the excitement was that we made two successful transitions. One was the cost vector of high-end features to the low-end and then we did the disc to flash and all-flash array. That was exciting. Year number four was year of excitement. Last year I remember being here all-flash array three-par and they were like, oh, we didn't think you were, we were last year. And year number three, we were worried that you would screw up the acquisition in year number four. We were worried that you're not going to get the all-flash array but you were there. So that was the year number four. And year number five, which is now, is gratitude and year of high-fives. Customers are just going from despair to hope, to optimism, to excitement. To now it's the year of gratitude and they're saying, thank you. You have arrived. So a couple of things that, great. Thank you for that description. It was really useful and helpful. Couple of things that are, I think, conventional wisdom on HP which are, like you said, it's mixed, right? Acquisitions, some work out, some don't. The three-bar acquisition has been a home run. So HP actually can do good acquisitions and has proven that. The second is, not so much for HP but large companies can't do organic development. This, what I wanted to say, I told you I was off camera, I was going to give you a hint. This is the first example of organic development inside of HP Storage since the original EVA. The original EVA was a kick-ass product. I remember when we saw that, late 90s, early 2000s, we said, wow, this is ahead of its time. And then HP sort of squeezed the R&D investment and that's when they got into trouble. HP didn't make that mistake. You poured money into R&D, put resources in there. This is true organic development run by HP, not by the independent or smaller company that you acquired, so that's awesome. Congratulations on that. Yeah, absolutely, absolutely. Thank you, thank you. That's a very astute observation on what we did. So that was pretty long good observation. Yeah, so now we're here. You guys are out talking about the All Flash data center. Most companies aren't, well, Pure Storage will talk about the All Flash data center. They don't have anything else, but most large established companies aren't talking about the All Flash data center. They're sort of protecting the past a little bit from the future. They're sort of doing that balancing act. You guys don't have that strategy. You're going hard after All Flash. Talk about that. Yeah, so here's how we see from an opportunity standpoint and talking to customers standpoint is that less than two or 3% of the customers who have really made the transition from disk to flash. So we see that as a 98 or a 97% opportunity for just lying ahead of us. And this transition is real because Flash not only helps with the power saving and the acoustics and the data density, but the performance. So it's an, as customers go and look at the characteristics of Flash and look what the array can provide, they, we see a world in the next few years where the transformation is going to go from, maybe today I think I'll be optimistic by saying that most of the data center customers are probably at 2% of the Flash adoption that 98% of architecture can get there. And that's our addressable market right now, which is a fantastic opportunity for us from a revenue and growth standpoint. Well, and the question that we have in the crowd chat today is, okay, when, when is that going to happen? And my feeling is it's an economics at the point at which it crosses over, which is very close. So depending how you cut it raw, not yet, but if you throw in deduplication, you're there. I'll give an, I'll give a proof point is when, how the market adopts it, right? The last two quarters, the three power revenue has been, has been growing gang buster for us for several quarters now, right? Graining market shares and everything. In the last two quarters, we saw a very interesting trend in our install base. We sold more Flash than 15K RPM drives. So on a business which is growing in this fast, fast clip, you see that change happening on your high performance drives to the Flash and that will transfer. That's a leading indicator on what's happening and it's going to happen very fast. Well, you know, David Floyer and people go to the wiki, go to wiki bond.org and you'll find this piece on there, click the history in the wiki. In 2009, he predicted that by 2014, all Flash arrays would replace high spin speed, 15K RPM and people said at the time said 2000 for that, you're crazy. Right. He was, okay, pretty close. He was pretty close. Not bad. He's now saying that Flash, forgetting people costs, that Flash will be less expensive than spinning disk by next year. Now, what he's saying is the raw costs, you have to add in duplication. Absolutely. And you have to factor in the fact that you need less storage to service an application that's Flash, but if you do that, it's going to be cheaper. And then, his cherry on top is data sharing. Yep. Because you can now make developers more productive by giving them essentially a live copy of data that they can test and dev on. And that's going to, and you can't do that with spinning disk. You have to spin off copies and then you get copy creep and that kills productivity. So what are you seeing there? I think he's right on. He's right on on his predictions, both on the timing standpoint and also the reasons for why it's going to happen very fast. I couldn't agree with him more. In fact, in fact, his prediction is so right that next discover, I'm going to bring him to the blackjack table. We'll see. I mean, there's a very bold prediction now. And as well, in talking to some of your customers like we had Alcoa on the other day, they're not using Ddupe. They chose not to. They said, yeah, it's fine. We're making a lot of money off of this. We don't want to mess with it. We don't want to put that in. And you can understand that there's sensitivity there. So there's a maturity thing as well. So sometimes, you know, we analysts tend to get a little ahead of our skis, but the trend is very clear. Trend is very fast. And I think this is one of the trends which is going to accelerate very fast as well. So this is one of the fast moving trend. And I think people will make this transition at their own pace, but there is at least 98% of this customers they go in. And nobody wants to build a data center, another data, new data center. They want to optimize what they already have or even refine better. So I think it's the, they will use more features. The flash is also getting denser. I mean, we just, so we, six months ago, we were at 1.92 terabyte flash drive. Today we're at 3.84 terabyte. That happened like in six months. So, so even without the deduplications, compressions and everything, the density of the flash is also increasing. So you're tracking Moore's law, you're coming, the price is coming down faster than, than, than spinning this. Perfect storm. Just a matter of time. Perfect storm of economics. All right, Milan, we have to leave it there. Thanks very much for coming on theCUBE. It was great to hear in the story and congratulations on the success. Really appreciate it. Thank you very much. And we're glad to be here. All right, keep right there. But Jeff Frick and I will be back with our next guest. This is theCUBE or live from HP Discover 2015.


So, that's pretty much it, and closing, I think it's pretty interesting, especially if you want to keep that, or if you're at any time to the best of your time. I didn't cover, literally didn't cover me, but I did, and this graph was still pretty new, that's why it's still in my game, so we'll see what happens. And again, so this is a bit of a bug. If you study all things, it adds, so it's a bit of a mess, it's a bit of a bug, it's a bit of a nuke, it finds the graph well, it keeps the current time, so you have to look, it's a bit of a nuke. Which is all about reading, can we do writes? Yes. So, in graph law, it's called mutations, I didn't recover it, because I think it was the easiest way to do it. So what it is, you know, it's the most unethical, right? So, in graph law, it's called mutations, and it's something like R2-3, and it's not all deletious, and it's the type of writing that's going to happen. It has to have a string, and it should bounce about from a local server. You should turn off flux. Unless you want to talk forever, but yeah, I'll try not to. Really? Now that we've got the technical issues out of the way, today I'd like to talk about Kubernetes for small organizations, and in case I'm wondering, this is not a technical talk, this is more a talk of our experience with Kubernetes. A quick show of hands, if you guys all know what Kubernetes is, somewhat of a majority. I'll do a very brief overview in just a quick introduction I did in the previous, and I worked with LogoTip. If you guys haven't heard, LogoTip is a social media app that allows people to very easily stitch together music videos.  You can use LogoTip to involve music video, live, online, and share to your favourites. Three. The first and the very long of the day is Kubernetes. Is it worth it? So, really, Kubernetes is this thing that allows you to manage your business. You know, in this day of microservices and studio services, you have all those digital services, all of them. How do you actually manage your business in the way that you see it in there? Isn't it very nice? And here are the interviews for you in the last few years. I asked, I don't know, something anyway, but it was worth it. For those who don't know, he knows this stuff, but all this experience that had to divide was, right? Well, you have the right to call up. You have seven people, four will be the engineers. So here's that. I'd like to look at the motivation instead. It's not the mirror that we were talking about. We have the main service, we have the direction of the desk, and of those things, and so on. So what we're going to do is this message. So in terms of how you do it, we start with that. So we have all the time, we're taking all the time. It's five, not two, right? And this is really important. How many people have the service? I know this might be a traffic lane, but it's not. So in the last few years, we've been able to see how much business we have. We have there's a lot of the we have one thing we've got, we have two second use services. We have a we have a we have a we have a we have a we have a we have all these things. But that's what's happening, that's really, really, really hard. If I had to go in and I would have of of of of of of of of of of of of of of of of of of of of of of of