So hello everyone I welcome you on the automotive panel discussion My name is Martin Perina and I'm working as a manager in the automotive part of our organization and Today I would like to Introduce you my colleagues who I'm working if so here we have like Pierre Yves Chibon He's principal software engineer and the product owner for the container on wheels team I have Rachel Sibley who is senior principal QE engineer and he's working as a QE automotive lead for the for the automotive effort and also we have Daniel Walsh senior distinguished engineer and the lead architect for the containers runtime platform in Red Hat So before we will get some kind of our question, of course we will give Talk to you, but at the beginning let me pass the microphone and my colleague will tell you what they are working on currently Good morning everyone, so I'm a Pierre Yves Chibon also known as Pingu more known as Pingu more normally I mean the as Martin say I'm the prep tenor for the containers on wheels teams Which also stands for the cow team which gives us the opportunity of doing a bunch of bad pen jokes It's been the team has been created about a year and a half and we still keep container moving and doing the move every week So yeah, we're pretty good with bad pun jokes The responsibility of the team is to do to look at everything that has to do with running containers in the cars What are the challenges? How do we how do we run them? How do we manage them? What are the challenges at you see to do that? So it's a it's a pretty interesting area and I ever talk about it at Chew I believe this afternoon in this room to talk about earter and we'll go into more details into that here Hi, good morning. I'm Rachel Sibley. I'm the QE technical lead for the in vehicle operating system and automotive I'm also the product owner for testing enablement team and our goal is to migrate existing rail tests That relate to the safety scope And run them in an automotive environment. So Yeah, I have a talk later on if you want to learn more about that in functional safety and what that means and It's at 415 today in this room Yeah, by the way, this microphone does nothing other than for the thing so everybody's thinking so we're gonna try to talk loud So my job nine months ago. I moved into the rivals team I consider myself my main job is to get containers running everywhere inside of Red Hat That's my so my focus and when it comes to automotive I'm looking at how we can use containers in the car how we use the technology to satisfy a lot of the Requirements for us to get approved as an operating system that can run inside of a moving vehicle Okay, so Dan so I will ask a question for you because like we have published several blocks in the redhead block and one of the Most let's say controversial or most visible thing was that we don't believe that the Kubernetes is good to be running On your car so done. Could you please explain? So we'll start out by saying I love Kubernetes I want to open shift to be successful and but Kubernetes has some key issues when we talk about putting The reason we bring up Kubernetes in a car is most of the automakers You know, that's sort of the first thing out of the mouth is we want to get into this cloud native world and you know this whole buy-in to Kubernetes and There are going to be multiple computers in a car So why not just use Kubernetes to move you know different containerized workloads around the vehicle? Well, we're gonna be talking By the way, I didn't mention I have container buff. I think at two o'clock this afternoon same time Yeah, we're competing so if I get more numbers on him. Yeah Mine is just gonna be general it you know similar to this just general questions about containers And I'll be showing I potentially show some cool stuff, but and then tomorrow at To what time to 2 o'clock 2 30. I'm doing to talk containers on wheels or containers in cars So it'll be a I'll show a lot of the technologies and talk about it But our her days is one of the key ones anyways Going back to Kubernetes in a car So quick when you drive in a car One of the key things in any type of moving vehicle is what they call functional safety so functional safety means basically we want to make sure that the You don't do anything to injure someone with with a moving vehicle So it's it's a somewhat similar to security in that you want to make sure that the system works correctly But in functional safety, we want to make sure for instance You might have an app that's let's say Applying the brakes and then you have another app that is running Netflix Well, you want to run make sure the Netflix app is not like dominating in such a way that the brake app cat fire function fire off in in the world of Kubernetes So basically when you want to have an app execute that app has to execute. Okay, so be to be functionally safe In Kubernetes, they they have the concept of eventual consistency, right? So you want to we eventually your app to come up and eventually the environment to be up and running So obviously that is not the same thing as the app has to be up and running so we can't use Kubernetes and orchestrate the other thing is trying to get to functional safety. You have to really look into the code really examine the code and Explain how the code always works on time when you get into multi-threaded applications that are written totally in something like Golang It becomes a lot more difficult. So Lastly Kubernetes applies a heavy workload. So in the Kubernetes environment, there's always a lot going on, right? This is a heavy heavy The kubelet Cryo, they're always doing stuff. So they're always using CPUs. They're always Performing stuff. So there's a lot of reasons not to use Kubernetes in the car and for our Low overhead Orchestration is her day, which is what he'll be talking about this afternoon And I'll be talking about a little bit in mind tomorrow Thanks, Dan. So as you mentioned the functional safety is one of the biggest challenge or the biggest Problem that we are trying to solve within the automotive effort. So Rachel, could you please talk about like, you know How do we handle and how do we test functional safety? So for testing the in-vehicle operating system we need to well functional safety or FUSA requires 100% requirements test coverage So that can be a bit challenging Especially the way we inherently do it with rail QE. We were not designing tests 100% functionally testing A an API for example. We take a lot of what's upstream. We rerun it So part of this is running the tests against our requirements, which are the APIs Running them identifying where our gaps we use code coverage analysis decov to assist us with that Developing new tests to ensure that we have that 100% coverage So a lot of what we're doing with testing is we want to leverage Existing tests from rail. We don't want to fork their tests or have duplication there So we're rerunning all of the existing rail tests and then adding new tests for any of the gaps that we're finding and a Lot of these of course are tailored around the safety scope And we're adapting them to an automotive environment because the tests weren't designed to run In an OS tree environment. They're you know designed to run against an RPN traditional compose So there's some tweaks or changes to the test to get them to run an OS tree and then migrating them to an updated test framework depending on where we're running them so Yeah for for testing. Yeah, it's definitely quite challenging to also establish the traceability We need to have requirements down to the test cases The executed runs the logs the failures every failure needs to be linked to an existing issue All of this needs to be traceable. We have to have the evidence. We have to have retention policies in place So we have a lot of work to do I Just want to point out. There's a key word that she mentioned multiple times there evidence So in to me functional safety means Eventually if a vehicle causes an accident or a machine causes an accident and you go ahead in front of a court of law You have to have evidence that you did everything to make the system as functionally safe as possible So that's you know, so that's really what we're trying to do is what this will be the first time Linux Operating system has ever achieved functionally safe to to describe Linux in terms of being as safe as possible Right doesn't mean accidents again. I'm not going to happen But it would eventually you might have to get in a court of law to prove that we did everything possible Or our partners did everything possible. So to prevent an accident No to follow up on that a little bit one of the one of the example I like to take is You know you certify an API and that API can be something as simple as you know open open a file and write content to it and The idea of the the functional safety is to make sure to guarantee that you know If you use that function what it will do is open a file and put content into it If there are very specific use cases, there are very specific conditions under which you know if I give it a 42k Buffer frame and I'm pointing to a very specific place in the file system in under these conditions The function does not behave as it should that's a problem. That's that function is no longer functionally safe So it's it's going a lot through the code examining it and ensuring that it behave the way it does that doesn't mean that the The way you can you can't use the phone the function to actually do something bad, but it means it means that you know It's the example I do is you have a gun you shoot yourself in the foot the gun has worked the way it's supposed to be You pull the trigger it fire the bullet if you the fact that you are aiming it at your foot is your Responsibility the gun they did what you did so the function to open a file and write content to it Does what it did if you use that function to mess with the Canon parameter that send that landed with a crash of the Compute unit that triggered the accident then you know the function is what it was supposed to do The fact that you used it wrong is your responsibility and a lot of foosers to do with this it's you know Where does the responsibility lay and can we track that risk that? responsibility and you know So it's it's a lot to go going through all the codes lots of doing through all the test cases And that's where the test cases are important and the traceability of them are very important because they are to prove They are the evidence that the function does what it's supposed to be doing and some functions are very easy Open a file write a file some functions sorting functions For example becomes a lot more a lot more challenging and there how do we end all exceptions? How do we and those DH cases and all of these are becoming back to retracial was saying testing is important there Thank you as you all said like you know the the functional safety is one of the core Problem that we are trying to solve and that also like comes with the where the Linux can move on right? It's kind of very well established on the computers and servers It's probably most probably also very well established in the edge devices now. We are trying to get the Linux to the cars, which is like, you know completely new level regarding this functional safety So Pierre do you think there are kind of other? Categories where we could do it or other areas when after we will get into the cars it This work will not be specific only to cars, but we can expand From discussions we've had recently there is definitely an interest in what we are doing There is the the entire automotive industry is curious of what we can do and what we can offer with it The idea about being able to update systems being able to have a life-cycle You know a single soft-trace tag that is Applicable that is maintainable across multiple generations of cars is something that is very appealing In the same way that you know, it's nice to be able to run well night on a different generation of servers And not having a specific version of an operating system for a specific version of a server So then the automotive industry is very much interesting in what we're doing, but they are not the only ones looking into us we have had this recently discussions with industries that are less regulated that automotive but that are still sufficiently critical that they actually rely on softwares and software and software stacks that are used in automotive industries But without necessarily the set of functional certificate one one example we've met recently is a mining company that operates, you know heavy machinery and They are not as critical from a functional safety perspective You know if it's a if the engine breaks in the mine It's probably going to be less dangerous than you know if you computer crash on the autopilot in the highway But it is still sufficiently important for them that they're actually looking at these kind of stacks But then the line. There are also other areas that are heavily regulated But that will have certifications similar to the one that we are working towards with automotive You can think like autonomous trains They'll have a different set of requirements But there will be a lot of overlaps with what we are looking for in the automotive industries Medical devices are not another area where there are very strong very very complex You know certification you can achieve but there is also a lot of overlap with what we do in automotive So there is Industries, you know if Linux manages to enters in the functional safety areas of automotive It is the footstep in the door to a number of other areas for earlier regulated that may and that may involve That may look at what's being done in automotive that may look at the The way the standards is evolving because there is also work that's been done at reddit to make to make the standards Evolve the standard has been written I don't know 23 30 years ago something like that and hasn't really evolved since and the you know The IT industry has changed tremendously since The core fundamental of how the standard was written is still applicable today But the way we do it and especially the way we do it in open source software where you know Every single open source software was started by a highly descriptive written requirement document That is highly implemented and covered in 100% test coverage It's like I'm sure every open source project in the room is Fulfilling all of these requirements No, really, you know you have highly described requirement documents and really person could test coverage So but no, but that doesn't mean your your project is not actually You know following the spirits of some of these documents even if you don't realize them today So it's one of the things that we are trying to also influence is the the ISO community the standards to make to be able to Make them amendable to other approach to software development that relies on you know crowd sourcing reviews highly available test test devices the test suites you know The links kernel is probably one of the most Tritonized piece of software the number of industries a number of people looking into it It's a very complex one But it's also one of the most reviewed piece of software and yet it does not today satisfy the the ISO Standards, but that doesn't mean this period what the ISO standard wants to do is incompatible with the way the kernel is being developed So there is work being done there and that's probably going to open other areas in the future to have these discussions again Okay, thanks, so any questions from you that we would like to ask No Okay, so so I will try to repeat the so the core question was like, you know If there are any other areas other than the functional safety, which we need to take care about I my kids used to play a video game called need for speed and so in in a vehicle there are Requirements like you turn the car on within two seconds These are legal requirements within two seconds of being has to happen and noise has to be made that tells you to put your seatbelt on If you put the car into reverse the reverse camera has to come up within two seconds So there's there's lots and lots of requirements So I think it was a talk yesterday on turning on the backup camera within as fast as possible the Linux kernel So imagine going from a cold stat You know the operating system not and being booted so that it makes a sound within two seconds So there's lots of stuff going on we in the in the pod man team. We spent probably about eight ten engineers to try to Optimize pod man for starting a container and when we started out We were about two seconds for on a really low-end Raspberry Pi So we wanted to make the machine as low-end as possible and we were able to get it up to about point three seconds So we six times faster starting now for human being if I hit pod man hit character turn like you know The container stats within one second It's not you don't even notice it, but When you're worried about Starting up what our partner and this is General Motors and they want us to go negative time So they want us to create a time machine. Yeah Other things the the user experience of The you know the central system in a car is a lot different from what we're used to in in a data center Dan mentioned the the boot time requirements, you know is you you start your car You don't want to have to wait multiple seconds for the system to be ready. You want to get in your car start the engine and drive Same thing for the application the starting the pod man. You know when you click the button, you don't want you don't want to to wait You know if you take a a cabinet is cluster Data center server that will take minutes to start You know if pod man's text a few seconds to start the application after that you don't really care You've been waiting five minutes for the server to reboot anyway So, you know a couple of second is not hot the the entire user expectations. There are challenges We are speaking about an edge device that we need to protect Physically because the user has access to the device physical access to the device We need to protect it from actually the user tempering the device but we also need to protect the software once it's running from How to say from Non-human triggered Random event that would curb the software corrupting the file basically if Again going back to functional safety. You're driving along and all of a sudden you got a corruption and on a desk These the system has to realize that so you can't you can't cause an application to miss miss Misrun right so if a file or an object on the file system gets corrupted We have to know so we were looking at like DM Verity and and different functions. So the big effort has been this I think all composed of s which is a Composable file system that we can actually apply some of the rules of DM Verity and and FS Verity On to the file system basically so the kernel will while you're reading a file the kernel will know that that file Corrupted and so then we can realize it and basically put the car into safety mode right pull the car over to the side of the road into the breakdown lane and Call on a US thing called triple A and get a tow truck out the other toe of the car There's also the concept of freedom from interference So we need to ensure if there's a cascading failure that's happening from the quality management side of things Which is non-safety aspect code if that's cascading into or affecting or Preventing a safety function from delivering its capability then that would be bad So we need to ensure that we for a testing perspective. We have freedom FFI test cases to ensure that There's isolation between the A's will be code safety code and the non safety code aspect to ensure. There's no interference there so the question So the question is what do we what happens if we get a kernel panic or a sec foot? That is the that is the that is one of the core element of the functional safety aspect is Which we're not supposed to be able to get a sec fault but That's that's one of the idea functional safety You ensure that the function be of the way it's supposed to be and you know the people using the functions are also due to Do functional safety on their application? So it's not only we the functional safety basically is a layered approach where we build on the we are we build the operating System which is built on top of a functionally saved C certified firmware and then functionally safety certified applications will be built on top of a functionally safety certified operating system Which means you can't have a functional safety certified Application that does not run on this functionally safety certified operating system So it's it's really every every layer. No step. It needs to be certified for the top level application to be So one of the thing is you you have to document all of this the in part of the functional safety is like okay The question it was what happens if there is a if there isn't a you know file system this permission error when you try to write a file the the functional safety Documents all the all the work that Rachel is doing and documenting in tests are comes we basically a pretty big user manual and we basically get to tell the OEMs, you know RTFM and Make sure that your codes is compliant with the way we describe how it works So we do not only are the documentation going to tell you how to use the code But also what what are the different exceptions that will be raised and all the code, you know What what will be triggered so that the code can live can handle such an exception? Yeah, so I mean So the if if something goes wrong in the car So the goal is for the car to know that something went wrong So it's again if you run out of disk space on the car or a point Yeah, actually segmentation fault happens then we have to relay that information up to You know the monitoring program that's running on to see what kind and the monitoring program will take action So a classic example will be you're in self-driving mode on the highway And it'll notify the driver of the car to take over that the human being has to take over I'm dropping out of self-driving mode because something went wrong So from an operating system point of view our job is to not only describe what's happens You know if you write code like this you could have a chance of running out of disk space Right, so that's us describing what functional safety, but if an app on the third node blows up System D is going to realize it right system D knows that the service went down System D will then tell her to the monitor the tool that we have our Kubernetes right our lightweight orchestrator will then tell her to will then send that a message to The main node that's monitoring the system that Hurt a on that system will then relay that to the monitoring app from the vendor So the car company to a software and then the car company software will take action like Notifying the human being you have to take over driving or tell the self-driving car to pull the car over into the breakdown line Right, so that all has to but that all has to be realized right. It's not You know just something happened and the car keeps going right so so Before we got to that question one of the things I wanted to to precise that they are there are basically four different levels of Functionally safety certifications you it's basically called a seal and it goes from a to D And D. He's the highest level of certifications And a is the lowest we are aiming for a seal B And it's important to know because things like as much as we like the break example It's actually a bad one because the brakes are not going to be running in an a still be environment They are going to be in a still D environment because these are critical systems and these kind of certifications are It's no longer an operating system. It's a microcontroller And those microcontroller eyes LD and they are very embedded So even if you know if we were to blow if our if the node in which we run would blow up the car Would still be it will remain in a state that it can be drive by you someone, you know all the as you'll be functionally safe certified Systems will keep on running so you still be able to steer the car You'll be able to drive the car you'll be able to you know move to the emergency lane pull break and safety ends Keep the safety of the the integrity of the of the passenger intact So we're we're not looking we like the brake system because it's something we can easily understand But it's actually not the best example But it is it's easy it makes it easy to to to grasp some of the challenges there And I'm sorry to come back to your question there was the does that I'm sorry, okay There was a I'm sorry Yeah, I mean the entire operating system is gonna be based on top of rel right we're not we're not building a brand-new operating system Yeah, the goal is to take rel and prove its functionally safe We are gonna be modifying slightly the Linux kernel. We're running in real-time kernel and We're modifying the init ID for quick boot up things like that But pretty much we have to fall back on you know red hat 30 years of experience in an operating system and building a rel and all the all the software, right? We're not building our own g lip see we're not building anything special You know for the most part this is rel so it's it's red red hat enterprise Linux For a car is what I would say Are we looking at other standards for certification? No, we're only looking at ISO to six to six to we're also considering a spice Which is has a lot of overlap with ISO to six to six to but just looking at different aspects of that as far as our quality management system, but So far just ISO to six to six to Maybe I will add to this that like you know We have a working group within the ISO who is trying to improve the current version of the standard to be more Like let's say aligned with the modern approaches that we are trying to do right So it's it will not be like in the past that when you want to have some kind of functionally safe operating system You will need to print out like bunch of books and the wilderness stamps But it will be much more based on the on the continuous certification to be able to to align with the latest changes Right. So so that's one of the part is that we have a people within the ISO standard who is working on improving The ISO standards to be more aligned with the best practices as we have now So the question is if you're targeting a CB what kind of functional safety software are we speaking about? the So infotainment the question about the infotainment is infotainment is not functionally safety certified It's called QM and that's quite team-managed and that's basically the you know the real city infotainment the GPS to some extent So what the stack that we are mostly looking into is the adas stack. So the advanced driving assistance systems basically autopilot being able to Sorry No, Netflix. No, no, no Yeah, it's another example that we like to use because it's easy to grasp But Netflix is not going to be running on top of you know, right at is going to run on Android Yes, so in yeah, it there'll be a separation as will be We actually support a ZLA which I'm not even sure what that is But a ZLA and a ZLB applications, but that could that could be your entire self-driving capabilities in the vehicle So it's it is there's a lot It's a matter of fact There's very little parts of the system there I usually see an A's will be just because it's so expensive to so it's a large framework QM is is Quality managed which basically means it doesn't have to live up to the standards functional safe Right if if your Netflix app or you're in when I'm really talking about here Is will be running Android inside of a VM If that if that VM fails then we just put it aside now What we have to guarantee is that the entire QM System will not interfere with the self-driving car.  No That that's a There's lots of question that we're working back and forth with the vendors on that idea So they want to have over the over the air updates So the certain parts the operating system system itself will be updated maybe Twice a year so that the base operating system But the containers that are running inside of the operating system will be updated on using over the air updates So imagine you and my part point my thought would be you pack the car in the garage and it hooks on the Wi-Fi and downloads But the the automakers want to be able to update the applications as you're driving around now not Replacing the running applications. So imagine you're doing a podman pull as you're driving along the highway Okay, but not doing a podman restart. Okay to give you to make it make it as simple as possible So they want to have the same experience you have on a cell phone where they can update But they also want us to We just had something come up this week where they talk about how they can protect a USB They want to update the entire operating system via a USB So you take it to the dealership and again, I don't know how this is if this is US centric or not But you have to take the vehicle into the dealership and the dealership will reflash the operating system from a USB stick And they want to make sure the USB stick is You know certified somehow and so there's things like that we have to deal with as well So Let me know if I get a question correctly are there any other features that we are foreseeing in the future about What we run on top of all is that correct? So are there was a feature that are driven by the automotive use case that will be used outside of the automotive use case? I think composite fs work from Alex is definitely going to be interesting for the entire edge ecosystem Because the entire edge ecosystem is going to have the same so it doesn't have the safety element But he still has the security elements of the same requirement than the cars like it's an edge device That is somewhere far away from a data center and therefore the user has physical access to it And we need to protect the system from the user or you know, it's environment So there are definitely work on a couple of fs that are interesting it Quadlets is is something that landed in podman for two And that is that was directly driven by the automotive use case quad let is an is an easy way to To manage system this to manage to start container from system the services. It's basically if you if you do To proper to properly start container using system D You have to enter in the exact start line a command that is about three or four lines long depending on the widths of your terminal Podman makes these quadlets sorry makes these two lines in a text file and It automatically generates the correct way of invoking podman runs in your exact start on system D from a template That's the quad that file and that's something that makes it a lot easier to to run containers from system D one of the advantage of course is One of the other advantage of using that is if in the future we optimize podman To be you know to run in the system use case You know we do other optimizations for podman from to run container from system D You will automatically get these optimizations in quadlets and you don't have to remember to go and edit all your service files System the service file to add the new parameters or remove the old ones and so you you keep that in quadlets And you ultimately benefits from it. Yeah, I'm going to give it to her because There's a lot of functional safety Stuff that's funneling back into the rel test Yeah With functional safety, there's All of the tests that we're taking are derived from the requirements and having to take those and rerun them In in vehicle OS. So yeah, there's a lot of rigor depending on how complex the API is but essentially the APIs are Basically based on man page requirements and then QE has to go and then decompose the man page into Low-level requirements of taking something that's ambiguous and breaking it down into functional pieces So there's a big Yeah, and part of that is reviewing the man pages and ensuring that the man pages are doing what the implementation is supposed to be doing Yeah, but there's a lot of rigor a lot of rigor that's going on in the testing aspect with verifying these man pages Also, there's a lot of effort going on right now to get Android to work well inside of You know eventually you'll see it'd be easier to run Android inside of fedora for instance as a VM. So there's a lot Basically, yeah, there's I mean RIVOS is not a huge organization But there's there's about a hundred people in and RIVOS at this point and everything We're doing is feeding back into other parts of the vehicle. I mean have the operating system Okay, unfortunately, we are out of time. So thanks a lot for coming here. Thanks a lot for the great question And and if you have any and you have any additional questions Feel free to come to us and ask and we will let to answer you. Thanks a lot


103.9 FM, WOZO Radio, Knoxville. Ladies and gentlemen, Digital Freethought Radio Hour. Hello and welcome to the Digital Freethought Radio Hour on WOZO Radio 103.9 LP FM right here in Knoxville, Tennessee. Today is Sunday, June 6th, 2021. I'm Larry Rhodes, or a Doubter 5. And as usual, we have our co-host, Wombat, on the line with us. Hello, Wombat. Hello, everybody. Thanks, Kentucky. Let me see your shirts. Thanks. We've got banks at the top of Kentucky. Let's go. Let's go. Yeah. Wow. There's a lot. There's a lot on that. There they are. More than extra. For our audio audience, we had some t-shirts showing thanks to Kentucky. Yeah. Our guests today are George Brooklyn, George Buffalo. Buffalo. And you're at Pirate Higgs. How are you? Digital Freethought Radio Hour is a talk radio show about atheism, free thought, rational thought, humanism, and the sciences. And conversely, we'll also talk about religions, religious faith, holy books, gods, and superstitions. Wombat, what's our topic today? We're going to be talking about something that I don't think many gods are very good at. And I think that's turning the other cheek. Why it's important, funny stories of when we've done it in the past and why gods should be more prone to doing it if they call themselves perfect and benevolent. But before we get into all of that, before we get into all of that, I got to throw it up to our own, Dred Pirate Higgs, for our weekly invocation. We're going to have the proper head here. Well, be me captain. I shall not want. He may give me to float in salt water. He steereth me through glassy seas. He fell with my bowl. He steereth me through the straits of noodliness, for goodness' sake. I, though I sail through the heaving of tempestuous waters, I will fear not sinking. For thou art with me. Thy mast and thy rudder, they comfort me. Thou preparest a feast before me in the presence of me, mates. Thou quenches my thirst with grog. My goblet runneth over. Truly, past and grog shall follow me all the days of me life. And I will dwell in the galley of the quad forever. Wrong. Wrong. Pasta Luya, everybody. Pasta Luya. All right, so, hey, turning the other cheek is what we're going to be talking about, but I want to go into one of our favorite segments for the show. What you guys been doing, what's on your plate? Dred, you always got something interesting. What is the status of Operation Chaos? Yes, well, unfortunately, so the latest letter has not come back yet from ICBC with respect to, because I argued, of course, that the letter I received from them suggested that the last time I was at ICBC, I was trying to get accommodation for my religious practice when, in fact, the band was just a hair accessory, which happened to have the symbol. Right. And we've talked about this having, pitching it out to my mates there to go with a similar hair accessory. If I lived in Canada, I would be first in line to do this. Yes, yes, I would happily do this. So we're still there. I'm just waiting to hear back from the Mucky Muck at ICBC with respect to whatever response he may have to offer before taking it to the next level. Cool. George, you got some comments. Why are you at time? Yeah, I just, for the listening and viewing audience, I want to explain a little bit about what Dred Pirate Higgs is talking about. And he has, he's actually Dred Pirate Higgs, why don't you do the explanation? Because I'm a little foggy and you'll do a better job than me. The explanation of what? Sorry. What is, you're involved in illegal action. If I remember right, explain to our listening audience what this is about. Well, so really it's about what we perceive as institutionalized religious privilege. Discrimination. And it's discrimination, of course. So I've gone into ICBC wearing my tricorn as an ask for accommodation based on my religious beliefs in a similar way that Muslims wearing koofies or Sikhs wearing turbans are allowed to, allowed to and are given accommodation for their religious beliefs. And of course, they exclude us. They discriminate us against us. And for the most part, without a really good reason. Right. They've said that while we're making this accommodation for religions that prohibit you from removing your headgear. And I've demonstrated time and again that there is no religion that prohibits you from removing your headgear. All religion is a choice. And if we started accommodating people based on prohibitions in their religions, well, we wouldn't suffer witches to live either. Right. So, you know, picking and choosing what you're going to make accommodations for is patently absurd and arbitrary in every way, shape and form. In a sense, it was like the state government's like, hey, we have driver's license, but also no hats. Just no hats. But if you're religious, you can wear a hat. But only if you're these religions. Exactly. There you cross the line. Because now are you deciding which religions can and which can't. And you're not in a position to be able to do that. And governments shouldn't be in the position to do that. Although there are governments all over the world that have state religions and authorize this one and not authorize that one. America is not one of those. It's in the Constitution that we have this constitutionally supported separation of church and state. And all these local and federal agencies are ignoring that. And that's what we're against protesting. Buffalo, want to weigh in. What do you think about that situation? Well, it makes no sense to me. It's not logical. It's unreasonable. And somebody has to stir it up in order to make a change toward something that is more reasonable. That's why there's red part with the big spoon. And listen, if I told you, if I was in Canada, you would you tap me and I'd be like, all right, just tell me what to wear. I'll get a new driver's license. I don't care. This is sound. This is fun. A lot of people. I hope you have fans that are helping you out with this. Like, do you have a community that can like assist you in Well, we have. I mean, we are a registered church. I mean, or we're a registered society here, the church of British church and flying spaghetti monster. So there are warm bodies. You can tap to be like, please. Sometimes it's, you know, it's like hurting cats, right? Pastifarians by by nature are not typically down conformists. We're pirates, right? So we're kind of free spirits and so give it some goodie. Be like, Hey, if you do this, let's we'll give you free alcohol for the next month. Like there you go. That's Canadian beer. That might, that might register. You got to invest a little bit. Anyway, just letting this in. George, I want to hear from you how you've been since last week, my friend.  George Buffalo or George Brown? My bad. My bad.  What's up? George Brown, the two and a half is me. And I just want wanted to mention if it wasn't obvious to our listeners that although most of us are in the United States, dread hired dread pirate Higgs is actually in British Columbia. And and so he's subject to a, I will say a different tyranny than we are here in the United States. He suffers the Queen's tyranny. Isn't that right? State religion, church of England. Independent. I should say Canada has a state religion. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, they do. So you asked me, well, I, you know, my memory can be very short and right at this moment. The only thing I have to report really is that I have been jousting with bureaucracies in this last week. Oh man. I don't, I don't appreciate customer service that is based in the Philippines. Oh geez. Shots. Okay. Yeah. I mean, the people are perfectly fine. I've got, you know, I've got nothing against. Yeah. The good customer service is hard to find it is, but I tend to find that the ones that have the best customer service also have the worst business operating practices. So like, amazing customer service. Everybody's happy, but then Chick-fil-A is like very, very sure. Religious. Don't want to hire gay people like very, very almost optimistic in terms of their placement of people in their positions. It's just like, oh, Walmart, great customer service. Like everybody, you know, it looks at least sleepy, which is not bad, but Walmart. But you know, like a whip. I mean, on the technical side, I have to say that I once went to Walmart. Yeah. To look up one product online. Okay. Those mofos put 115 cookies on my computer. And that is abusive behavior. Wow. That's crazy. Also, you're recording the language that you're trending the line. George. All right. I know. Buffalo, George, how you been? Good. I've been fine. Thank you. Not bad. Not bad. Not bad. Any states and science, are you still connected to that? Yeah. Yeah. I still am because I still have a lab with a couple of people. I've got a grant that's running out at the end of this year. And then I'll finally toss in the keys to the kitchen. Okay. Yes, I am, but I've sort of removed from the general faculty of the university anymore. I interact with some people in, in my immediate area. But yeah, I am. Cool. Cool. The, the interesting thing that came out of that was that we had a discussion just the other night with a bunch of colleagues about why Kentucky was so good at handling the delivery of the vaccine, the corona vaccine that they were early on. And I mean, I had my shots in January. Sure. Yeah. Really. And nobody really knows why, except I had this very, I don't know if I told the story before, but I had an interaction. I went there to volunteer to help with the vaccination effort. And I spent 60 hours there actually at it. But I met a guy from Pfizer from the company and he's involved in the epidemiology, the logistics of virus delivery, virus, all aspects of it. And he had a lot of interesting things to say. One of which was that they selected, they were looking for places with Pfizer that had cold storage facilities. Makes sense. Since that one is very sensitive to temperature. Right. And they picked University of Kentucky and they, they picked the University of Louisville. I know they're cold storage labs. I've been inside them. So yeah, that's right. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So that made sense. But what was interesting then is that doesn't necessarily explain the very efficient logistical effort to get the vaccine out early, set up the facilities and so forth. And that apparently came because they hired the CEO of Chick-fil-A. Oh, the CEO of Chick-fil-A. Mr. Fil-A. Yeah. And he apparently organized the, the, you know, the systematics of it early on and got it going really fast. Or let's be, let's be clear. He got his staff who are unnamed to do the work and he took the credit. That's, that's how a CEO does it. But, you know, but why that CEO? I'm not sure. Sure. I had nothing to do with this, but I thought that was very interesting. Yeah, that's great. Great, great, great, great, great. Good job for everybody. Good job for everybody. I'll stop the story at that point. This guy said a lot of other interesting things, but yeah. Yeah. Typically it was like, CEO, how do you turn a wrench? I don't know. I pay somebody to do that. That's, that's how, that's how you do it. Larry, love to know how you've been. Oh, I've been fine. I've been staying home, staying in. Actually, I've been going out and eating a lot more than we used to for the last year. Yeah. And that's been great. It's nice to kind of be able to ignore those people that don't wear their mask because they may be vaccinated. They may not be, but you are, that's the important thing. Because as long as you're vaccinated, you're protected against COVID.  They're a threat to each other, which is a problem. Yeah. But no, I've just been staying busy on online editing video and audio and talking a lot on Facebook. Larry, I got a hot take about vaccinations, and then we'll get into your trolling. Okay. But like, the idea is at a certain point, vaccinations are available and uniquely very available in the United States of America. You're going to reach a point where the people who want to get vaccinated are vaccinated and the people who don't want to get vaccinated and have been exposed to the education to why they need to be vaccinated still will not get vaccinated. And at that point it's like, are we going to hold back society for these people? Or are we just going to continue to move on and let the consequences fall wherever they need to be? Right? Because at a certain point it's like, we need to continue to be a country. Well, we do what we can as far as spreading the word, but ultimately the responsibility is theirs and we need to move on. Right. And that choice comes with risk like all other choices. Even vaccinating had like a marginal risk. And we decided it was nominal and we decided to take it anyway. People who decided not to get vaccinated are like, ah, I'll take my chances. Like, great, I'm not going to hold back an entire economy because, you know. Okay. Well, I have one thing to ask about that. Yeah, go for it. What do you think Japan should do? For the Olympics? Yeah. For the Olympics? They're still hosting the Olympics. They're still hosting the Olympics. There's a less than 2% inoculation rate in their own country. Really? Right now? And they're about to invite 150-something other countries there. So here's my opinion. Or yet they're not going to require the athletes to all be vaccinated. That doesn't make any sense. No, it doesn't. That's nutty. That's so nutty. Okay. I didn't know that. You guys are, They're extreme right now. Anyway, so I'm thinking my other issue with the Olympics issue with the Olympics is that, uh, we should, I know this sounds bad, but we should just have them like one of three cities for the rest of our lives or the rest of the Olympics, LA and then like two other cities from around the world because that's where the broadcast is coming out. That's where you can have an Olympics and not worry about a town falling bankrupt immediately afterwards. Just like pick the spots where the cameras already are. They already have the airport there.  That's all you need.  You love starting. I don't troll. No. You love spreading the fire.  Well, that's not trolling. It's throwing something out there and, you know, that's not true or just inflammatory and then, you know, sitting back and letting people tear themselves up. I don't do that. I respond. Oh, it's not trolling. It's responding. I try to identify true trolls, actual trolls. If they're actual trolls, I'd bother with them. So this is, that's the thing I want to talk about. I want to talk about turning the other cheek. Sometimes in life, a message doesn't deserve a reply. And I have a big, I have like, I have enough of a YouTube channel with an audience where every day I wake up with at least five or 10 comments that are like, yeah, I don't want to respond to these. Yeah, there are several things that I don't respond to. And one of them is insults. If somebody is, if I'm talking to somebody and they insult me or use a snide backhanded remark. Yes. Yes. Okay. And learning anything, they just want to protect the religion and, and, and smack people around. So, right. Forget that. I'll move on. No, no, no. Absolutely true. I want to talk about like good times when to turn the other cheek, especially on the internet. We can probably start with that dread. We've had instances where people have just been kind of rude. What do you look out for in terms of like, I'm not going to respond to this. I'm turning the other cheek. Well, any, any ad hominem, I mean, when it comes down to attacking me or my person, it's that that's a, that's a game-ender right there. I, you know, back earlier when I first got on Facebook, you know, I guess I was not really prepared for how bad it can actually get sometimes. And I allowed myself to, to respond. And then quite quickly learned that, oh, I better modify myself. Otherwise, I'm just going to be an angry person and likely to develop the same kind of behavior that I am not liking having, you know, put on to me. Okay. Good points. I wonder where you draw the line. So if somebody said, so yeah, I don't take advice from beer from Canadians, but Dred Pirate, he, he's one of the good ones. Like, would you accept that as like, oh, he's making fun of my country. Like the thing about, thing about what we just did this morning where it was like, uh, the queen is in charge of Canada.  No, not, not at all. I'm not, I don't consider myself a patriot. Um, it's, I mean, I just don't go there. Uh, I think the whole idea of ideas being, uh, you know, able to be scrutinized and, and made fun of it is open game. I mean, we all have strange ideas. And, uh, if someone can point out the flaw in something I'm thinking about or, uh, some idea I have, I see, good. There's an opportunity for me to learn.  Exactly. Yeah. Yeah.  Nobody likes that. Whatever. Yeah. Nobody likes that.  Yeah. What about that? Have you been called? That's accurate. Yeah. I've, uh, Larry, Larry, Larry. I'll be heathen. I'd be like, yeah, that's awesome. I had someone, I had Joe of his witnesses come to my door in a van and they were hopping out just as I was pulling up. They're hopping out. And the guy said, yeah, this one older fellow is hopping out and he says, Hey, I just wanted to talk to you about, you know, the Lord Jesus Christ. And I said, Hey man, I'm an heathen at Foxhold.  Wow. Powerful. I love it. I love it. I love it. I love it. I love it. I love it. I love it. That's great. Um, yeah. So when the job when this is not on my door, they're more like, Hey, how's your mom doing? Cause my mom's one too. So it's all part of the family. Hey, Buffalo, what's up? I practiced, um, turning the other cheek just the other day. Um, nice. And I don't mean to go back to COVID, but it was a COVID situation. And that is, I asked just, uh, inquired with a person in our building who's really the manager of the building. And he also is the fabricator in the building. He's been there for 45 years. So that means he's sacrosanct as far as the university, uh, is concerned, um, about anything he might do is going to be kept quiet. But anyway, this guy, I asked him whether or not he's gotten his, uh, his COVID shot. And it was just an insane question. And he said, no, I've gotten a die. And I asked myself, well, how should I respond to this? And I didn't. Uh, and so I turned the other cheek, I think, but, uh, you know, recently, I think, uh, I don't know if he's going to get a shot, but his mind has changed because he's probably one of the, maybe 2% of people in the building who don't haven't gotten their shot. And he knows that. So when we pass each other in the hallway, he doesn't say anything. And so I consider that having been a victory for myself. And then I was able to not say something, speak. Hey, that's a great story. That's a great story. I found that if you were a, uh, vindictive God, that probably would have gone a lot differently. And there's so many great examples of that. George Brown from Brooklyn, do you have a story of turning the other cheek that you can share with us? Well, I, I, I don't really, um, I, the way I'm wired, I have a problem. I don't always recognize when I'm being attacked. Okay. And, and so turning the other cheek for me sometimes is, is really difficult because I don't even realize that I'm in a position to, to choose to do that or not. So I might get pretty angry in response, you know, like 20 minutes later when I realized what has happened. So it's like, it takes time to register even though after 20 seconds insults. Yeah, exactly. But when you do find out that you were insulted, do you then go out of your way to cause justice in the universe and, and flatten some tires, or do you just be like, ah, it's not worth my time? Cause that is turning your other cheek. Yeah, it's more like I deliberate as I mean, yeah, I'll feel hurt, but, um, I'm also deliberating over how I'm going to respond. Do I want to wound that person? Yeah. Would that be appropriate? You know, emotionally or, or physically. Yeah, you got your options, right? Yeah. Yeah. So, um, I mean, recently I was attacked by a therapist. Okay. How did it feel? Well, um, it was funny cause she used a technique that a therapist should never use, you know, a real classic abuse tactic. I mean, just, just because somebody's a licensed therapist does not mean that they are a good human being or a good therapist or a good therapist. That's right. Well, you need to describe this more because it's sounding very provocative. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's true. Well, unfortunately, I, I, I don't want to right now. So sure, sure, sure. George Brown's on the rails. That's it's true.  What, and you, or you could leave a bad Yelp review. Like Yelp tends to be the passive dress of way for people to remember it's not, it's not slander. If it's true, it's and you can defend it. Right. Well, I'm here in, in the boon, in the boondocks of, you know, wild Tennessee. And, and I, I, I keep on learning, despite the fact that I've been here five years is that there's a lot about the South that I just don't understand. Hmm. There's a lot. And for me personally, George, there was a lot about the South where I had to learn how to turn the other cheek on a lot of things, especially coming from California, and it was in terms of like just weird comments I would get from people. And in some cases, I'd have to go out of my way to correct it. Like I would have people be like, Hey, you sound white. And I'm like, Oh, you sound like someone who has not gone and spoken to enough black people to know that there is a whole spectrum of different people who have, you know, communication skills. And the ones that maybe you don't know, don't reflect everybody, but that's not their problem. That's your problem to be able to go outside and meet more people. So it's not that I sound white. I sound like me and I'm a happy, proud black guy.  That's more reflection on you. Like I would go out of my way to explain all of that to somebody because I find that very irritable as a comment.  Oh my gosh, I hear that so many times. Or then eventually it changes from basketball out of football, which is more of a question of my body dynamic is like, okay, I'll take it. I'll take it. I'm not going to go out of my way to correct them. Like, sure, they have a lot of black football players and a lot of black basketball players, but just because you're tall doesn't mean you play sports. If it's because you're tall and black doesn't mean you play a sport on TV or something like that. I'm actually. Yeah, well, you know, it's like I have to ask myself, do I really understand where this person is coming from? Who are talking with? Because what I'm finding, I mean, I'm, you know, I grew up in New York City and I lived in the San Francisco Bay area for 40 years. I'm used to an urban context and one that's very diverse, yes, in terms of people. And I enjoy that.  And so I'm going to read the point. You're touching on a good point, George, because you have to read the intentions of the people who are offending you, right? And determine if whether or not based on their level of intent, is it worth turning the other cheek or is there is the ignorance that they're coming from so potentially dangerous or critical that you have to go out of your way to correct them, whether kindly or in an aggressive manner and be like, hey, not not today. Well, there's a little more. There's a little more to it. I'm talk to me. You know, maybe I am in a in an environment which has a an us versus them view of the world. Sure. And then how do I make my point in response without being perceived as a them sure and discounted completely because I'm one of those guys. Sure. You just find common ground and try to, you know, enlighten that area, what you have in common with the person you're talking to. Thank you, Larry. Yeah. And there's also the idea in my head of like at a certain age, there's it takes more and more resistance to change like a personality. And is it my job to do that for every single person who I see, or should I be like, you're a grown adult. You should know better how to act than that. I'm not I'm just it's easier for me to just take you out of my, you know, viewfinder in terms of like people I care about or need to deal with on a daily basis and continue to move on because there's so many other people that I could be spending time with and enjoying time with them, the the rascals or the knuckleheads of the world. And so I find that when I look outside my window and I see like what's going on in the world, people tend to trend towards the the silent sane people, the silent sane majority. But then when I turn on like Fox News or like some sort of radio station, it's like the crazy fringes that I'm hearing. And I'm like, this does not reflect what I am saying. And I'm glad that that is the case, at least for now. It used to be I was scared for both. But now it seems like, OK, things are a lot better in the long term. But I got to choose my fights. And that's why I need to turn the other cheek. Larry, what's up? Larry, it's about time for the break. We're halfway through the show and you probably need to take that now. Yep. This is the digital free thought radio hour and WOZO radio 103.9 LP FM here in Knoxville, Tennessee. We'll be right back after this short break. 103.9 FM WOZO radio. Knoxville. Hello and welcome back to the digital free thought radio hour. I'm WOZO radio right here in Knoxville, Tennessee. And this is a Doubter Five, Larry Rhodes. And this is Sunday, June 6th, 2021. And I'd like to talk about the local atheist group in Knoxville. Atheist Society of Knoxville or ASK. We found it in 2002 or in our 19th year. ASK now has over a thousand members. We have weekly Zoom meetings and in-person meetings. So be sure to go to Meetup or KnoxvilleAtheist.org and find out more about it. Our in-person meetings are at Barley's Taproom Pizzeria in Knoxville's Old City on the patio. You can find us in Facebook, Meetup, KnoxvilleAtheist.org or just Google KnoxvilleAtheist. It's just that simple. By the way, if you don't live in Knoxville, you should still go to Meetup and search for an Atheist group in New York. Star 1. Where do you want to pick up there? I'm back. Hey, we're talking about turning the other cheek. I want to talk about why don't gods do it more. I think we can pick. I think we've picked on the Christian God so much times, but it's always a classic. I don't get old. I doesn't get old with me. I have noted a number of times that Christian gods or including the Jewish God and Islamic God, basically variations of like the same Abrahamic God, to be honest with you. Or just depending on what version you update, you're talking about even like Mormon gods, which are its own offshoot, but very, very not in the mindset of, yeah, you did something bad, but I'll let it go. Like that's not that kind of flavor. And I feel like gods that don't practice turning the other cheek or at least holy books that don't depict their God being willing to do that afford humans the the the idea that they don't have to either, especially if they're being told to be as godly as possible. And I feel like if you are perfect and benevolent, being able to forgive without any sort of recompense, it should be a mark of your benevolence. And if you lack that, that's a problem. Dredpire, what do you think? Well, it's interesting and I hear this a lot amongst people interchange between turning the other cheek and eye for an eye those two phrases are arbitrarily interchangeable, depending on the situation they want to justify. Right. And it's as you say, it's a justification for other people's behavior who are basing their morality and on on a book rather than on found good reasons. Sure. George Brown, what do you think? Well, I want to ask you, Dredpire. About that sense, you know, an eye for an eye and turn the other cheek when a when a person flip flops back and forth between those, how do you respond? Good question. Well, I just I mean, I pointed out the the the the contradiction. Nice. I say, you know, how do you determine under which circumstances you apply the one or the other? Is it based on how you feel about it or is there some objection? And has and often and often that often that question sometimes is jarring enough there. You see the eyes kind of go up and to the right. And the the aporia, you know, the the censor. Sure. Sure. Sure. Sure. I guess I never really thought about it. Thoughtful moment. Do you think you got through? Hard to say, you know, most of the times I don't. I you know, once people know where I stand on it, they don't come back at me. I'm interested. And I'm not going to put up with it. So unless they're willing to have a conversation about it, then then they just don't even bother talking to me. So I'm interested in hearing from Larry on this. What do you think, Larry? Well, on the turn the other cheek or talking about, you know, picking two different passages that are polar opposites. I've always felt that the Bible was like a more like a Rorschach test. You know, those ink block tests that it really doesn't have an image on it. But the the viewer supplies what they think the image says. And what you go to the Bible and you come back with says more about the person reading the Bible, the Bible itself, because you can you can pull love, you can pull hate, you can pull discrimination, you can pull destruction or creation, ignorance, willful ignorance, anything, anything you want out of the Bible to justify your previously helpings, God concedes. Yeah. The other thing was that I've got a cartoon that I like to post. It's a little kid in Sunday school and raised his hands. You know, it says if God tells us to to forgive and turn the other cheek, but then he turns around and roasts his enemies forever, you know, he punishes them. He doesn't forgive or forget.   You know, it's not supposed to correct your your behavior. It's a terminal point for the eternal punishment for finite crimes. Yeah. And it's it's just pain for pain's sake. Yeah. You know, it's it's just torture period.  I do have some opinions on hell, because if you were to tell me that there was a there was a whole all of all of human histories, grammar Nazis are probably so annoying that they'll probably go to heaven. And I don't want to go to heaven with them, right? If heaven exists. And so if you're going to ask me like, who's in heaven? Well, it's probably Republicans. It's probably West Federal Baptist Church protesters. It's probably grammar Nazis and people who use coupons at grocery stores. Because oh, why are you taking up all my time? What's going on here? Whereas hell? Who said hell?  You got the eSports players. You've probably got ping pong guys. You got the cool people there. I'm like, OK, between these groups and I have to spend an eternity there. Yeah, I'll get used to the flame. I'll get out. It won't burn after after a certain point. I won't bother me.  Just like that's not a bunch of Tyrone. It's around and there's special exceptions for believers versus. Yeah, yeah, I'm like saying that I since since it was a Christian, he was Catholic.  Exactly, you know, it just makes no sense. And so I was joking around before, but I think this is my most salient point, like two things. One, I could not be around people for eternity who are OK with another group of people burning and suffering for all of eternity and are OK with it because they're in paradise, like in my head, knowing that other people are suffering for all eternity for a finite crime and I'm experiencing paradise. I can't experience it. That's in my head, complete contradiction. And like any of the people who are happy and if you forget or if you are some of the worst people ever, in my opinion. If God makes you forget those people so you won't be tortured by their memory. Are you still you?  But God made her forget me. Yeah, not the person she used to be. Yeah, you just tinkered around on a brain and now that's not even the person anymore. That's what I'm saying. I'm impressed. Buffalo, George, I would like to hear from you. I haven't heard it. I haven't heard for a while. What's up? I've often I've often wondered that maybe the Christians believe that heaven is the other cheap and it's always there, but of course, you have to believe to get in there. But the thing that's a question that's always been of interest to me is how do the Jewish people handle this? Because they don't really believe in heaven. Yeah, they got she all and some other thing going on there. Right. What does that? What does that mean? I don't know. Well, you know, you may love making up words. So it's but, you know, Shana, no, no, no, no, I don't know what heaven is. Well, I don't know. I'm not talking about secular Jews. I'm talking about, for example, the very strict Jewish people. What's there? What's the counterpart? Well, we have a Jew. What we have a person who has raised Jewish here sort of George Brown. What do you think? Well, that's why I raised my electronic hand just now. You know, I really don't know. But my son, who's checked into this more than I have, tells me that there is a sort of a Jewish heaven and a vague concept of it. Hell, that's what my son says. I really I couldn't care less myself. I think the idea of both is just totally absurd.   Hey, loving God. Yeah, yeah, I would also say this, too. The things that make God upset are rules that he himself made up. It's sin in the sense. And like, if you write the book on what is a sin and what isn't a sin, you have control of what is essentially making you upset or what you're choosing not to do, yet you make beings that are capable of doing the sin. So like if flying 30 feet in the air was a sin, don't give us, don't give animals wings. But if you know, I don't know, flipping the bird is a sin. Don't give us middle fingers. Or is that double park stuff like that? Like we're making homosexuality gay. Yeah, but then having people born into homosexuality.  Like there is a way to manufacture that through nature rather than making it the thing and then saying there's something wrong with you your entire life. Yeah, I think it's I think it's because Christianity is stuck in a long history. That is, you got to you got to maintain the history or you lose the whole concept and the pews won't be as full. Sure, you got to keep those pews full. But I also feel like the idea of turning the other cheek is not a particularly attractive idea for a very powerful being that you should have a lot of authority for. Right. Like from our big, ambiguous authority figures, we like to have decisive actions, clear consequences, even if they're harsh. And you can use that if you're on the lower end of the totem pole to say, well, don't do the thing I don't like you to do because God doesn't like you to do that thing. And that's very, very powerful. Like a truly benevolent God that is, you know, willing to forgive without, you know, sacrifice in their own son, a bloodily on a human sacrifice cross is just like, no, you don't need to pray for that. Like that's not even a big deal. That's a very hard God to convince people to join the military for or to to to persuade people to buy some kind of food or ship the economy in a certain way or keep mega churches funded. That's a hard God to sell. And I think that goes a long way with it. I don't think that. Go for it, George. I was going to say, I don't think that Christianity can ever accept evolution because it's turning a lot of this over to nature. And and that's a problem, of course, because I think because of the long history that the Christian religion has to maintain in order to keep useful. Sure. Yeah. I also feel like it affects parenting as well. And I I don't have parents parenting, parenting to have God as a model of like the ultimate father, but to have this, you know, sort of addictive, jealous, explicitly jealous being who doesn't turn the other cheek to like any sort of offense, like even if you worship a different God, that's a punishable crime worthy of being sent to hell for. And it's like my way or the highway, you got to you have to respect me or nobody else. That's a if we had a more forgiving God, if we had a God that's more likely to turn the other cheek, I think we'd have parents that would be able to instill that in their kids a bit more and we'd have a less polarized society, maybe a society that's willing to, you know, manage offenses if they can understand the intent of where they came from. George, what do you think George Brown? I forgot what I was going to say. Oh, all right. I'm going to throw something out at you. What do you think if God was the Christian God, if he was a little bit more Canadian? Would that be? Yeah, what would that look like? And how would that be better? Well, you know, be apologizing a lot more for the bad stuff he did. And God that apologizes is a huge step. That's incredible. That blew my mind.  But I oh, OK, well, I'm sorry about that, guys. OK, gay people. I'm sorry I didn't I'm sorry I didn't do enough good good enough job on you guys. Like, how can I make it up to you?  Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, then have nature be your God. There you go. Then have nature be your God. Well, that's that's the essence of it, right? Yeah, it is. We change over time. So, you know, not that we're necessarily getting better or that we're on some rung of a ladder, right? But and I'm actually reading a very I think I mentioned the book. I'm reading How the How the How the Mind Works by Stephen Pinker. Yeah, and right now he's talking about life as a bush rather than a ladder. And it's really, really fascinating reading. I found that there's no facts always beat fiction. It's just a question of you have to learn the fact. And so like when you look at God as as like this fictional character and in many holy books, it's like, yeah, it's very cruel, very powerful. But if you look at nature, whoa, like some of the most not necessarily cruel, but like the most uncaring destruction of complete series of animals every day. It's like, ah, you made yourself a little bit too brown.  I see. Yeah. But it's totally uncaring. It has no direction and no conscious, no entity, right? No agency, like a fun game.  Wow, that's for fun for nature. If it was an anthropomorphic being, but like that's a fun game. Oh, yeah, survival is the game we're playing right now. And we can get so used to surviving with the comfy chairs and air conditioning that we forget that we're doing it right now. But that is what's going on outside every day. Hey, what's up, Larry? Larry, I see it. Yeah. Oh, we were talking about evolution and it's a bush, not a not a ladder. One of the things that kind of get to me when I'm online is that so many people think that we have evolution has ended with us where here we are. Right. You know, this is we're the best because everything else was earlier and older and not not as good as us. The dinosaurs were around for one hundred and fifty million years. That's what you're doing. I want to know what you're doing. Million years. No, no, I didn't need to think about the lowly cockroach. It's been around the termites there. There have been a lot more prolific that we are there. A lot of success successful evolutionary ends, if you call it in because it's now, but evolution is continuing even for us.  They'll probably be bio was electronically enhanced going forward. We'll do our own evolution at this point. But it doesn't mean we'll stop biologically evolving. Exactly. Everything else that will that's in the biome. And it's interesting, too, that Steven makes this point is that we may Steve be seeing a slowdown in biological evolution because we do occupy every ecosystem on the planet and in that our evolution is now driven largely by culture and so evolution is taking place right before us. And it's a Darwinian evolution is just not in our genes anymore. It's in our memes. Right. Absolutely. Yeah. And I absolutely believe that human beings have a proclivity to be very egocentric when we look at history. And so we think history began when humans are humans began when history began when humans began, we can even see that at microcosm. I've seen world history textbooks that have started at 1942 because they're they're taught in American schools. Yeah, it's just like Columbus sales, the ocean. We've been around at least 200,000 carbon dating. You're breaking up that. So the information about humans and the fumator and everything goes way back because we can we now know how to interpret it. And there were at one time on Earth history, there were at least five humanoid species we were just one of them. And there have been 10 or 12 that didn't overlap in time. So, you know, we're just the ones that won the battle for supremacy, basically. Right. But there have been quite a few other humanoid species. But I'll tell you. Even the meaning of Neanderthals. Yeah, I know I have a small percentage in my DNA. So all these people with Neanderthals in their bodies, this is this is bizarre. This is a bizarre concept. OK, well, I'm going to have to look this up later on. But yeah, that's kind of bizarre that everybody just knows they have cavemen in them. That's crazy. No, really, I've sent off my DNA to have it analyzed and it came back with like two percent Neanderthal. Nice. Well, that would be on your mom's side. Right. Don't talk about my mom. I'm talking about a congealed DNA. It's all right. It's OK. It's OK. All right. Hey, I would say this, though, we were talking about the intent of offenses is what dictates whether or not I determine if it's a means for me. To step in and try to make a correction or to let it go and just move on and just either write off the person and just write off the action. Right. It's about the intent. What I found with what nature does is there's no intent to what nature is doing. So like when a bad thing happens in nature, like a thunderstorm happens and I lose power, I'm not angry and I don't need to turn the other cheek to that. It's sort of just like I can't be vindictive against nature. It's just a thing that happened. But if somebody came and cut my power cables to my home, I'd be like, I need to have a conversation with you or call the cops. That is when I'm not willing to turn the other cheek because you've you've made my life inconvenient. You may have caused me harm. And so if I can avoid needless harm, I will do so. But if I can't avoid needless harm, I'm going to step up and make a correction. I would think that would be my standard. Dred, we're talking about what's your standard for when you decide to go for an eye for an eye or turn the other cheek. For me, it's can I avoid needless harm?  I'm either going to write you off right off the edge. Right. For me, I'm I'm I'm really not I don't like confrontation. So I tend to, you know, tend to let go a lot more than perhaps I should just to my own best interest. Because of course, sometimes people take that as a sign of weakness. And then double down on their intent to harm or malign you in some way. So it's it's a bit of a balancing act to try and figure out or to consider what the repercussions of acting or not acting are. And then, you know, apply some thinking to that to ultimately come to an answer. But there certainly isn't just any hard and fast rule. It's it's. George Brown, your thoughts.  We would I think the word troll came up earlier. I used to be involved in a free software group on use net, very lively discussion. And we were invaded by a couple of trolls. And these people were extremely disruptive. They attacked people. And what happened with me was that one of the trolls adopted my persona. And in my persona, attacked other people. Wow. Oh, that is rough. And now what would you guys do if that were you? Yeah, you turn the other cheek. I mean, this is it's like exploding in my head. So like, in my opinion, thoughts, words can cause harm. And and if someone's using my my personality or information to to to represent my me in a way that I didn't consent to, that's harm. I'm going to go out of my way to figure out a way to fix that, but also apply protection so it doesn't happen again in the future. But that's something I would not turn another cheek to. Dred. Yeah, absolutely. And I mean, I've certainly had that happen and somebody taking over my messenger and chatting with my friends to be me and and say, well, you know, I just won one hundred and seventy five thousand dollars. You just got to send me a check for four hundred. I'll catch you in on it or, you know, like just that kind of crazy stuff. Some weird skin. Typically, it's the consistency of a person's behavior that I know. And when something, when you see something in a messenger, if you know the person well enough, you figure out, you know, this isn't this is sounding off. This is this isn't Thai. I wouldn't speak to me this way and or Thai's grammar, for instance, might be, you know, I know that you have good grammar and you're spelling is good. And so if I see words that are jumbled or syntax that isn't correct, it's always a good. Yeah, it's a world skeptically, even from your friends, even text messages from your friends by a healthy amount of skepticism, too. And I think that's absolutely more of a demonstration of why skepticism is very important, so that's a great point to try. That's not how you solve the problem once you've gotten that label. Hmm. Yeah, you got to put protections on after the fact, too. You know, yeah, of course, change the password. I would say this, I like the idea of consistency, because I do have. I have friends that do not raise my blood pressure. I have friends that do, right? And whenever I have an engagement with a friend that does raise my blood pressure, I'm always like, why am I friends with this person? Right. Right. I have friends that not only do they have to earn your friendship, they have to earn the right to keep it. Yes. And for a while until even like graduate school, I realized my friendship has value and I can make friends with anybody. So why am I making friends with people who are deliberately causing me harm? Health wise, mentally wise, that's not good for me. It's easy enough for me to preen the number of friends that I have so that I just have the core that I do trust and care about. Or family, for that matter. And family, too. Exactly, if they're destructive or as acidic towards you. I'll tell you, this family isn't just blood, you know, family is people that you choose to be with and have deep relationships with. Absolutely. George Brown, what do you got? Um, you know, I just wanted to say that at my advanced age, I've learned that I simply need to eliminate toxic people from my life. Nice. I can't afford to have friends like this, even if they were very interesting to me, they're still toxic. That's actually why I left the band I was in. I'm like, send the blues and we've been playing together for a couple of years. And every I was finding that every practice we practice for two hours. But the first half hour would be taken up in, you know, kind of calling down groups of people and it got worse and worse. To the point, it was just like it was outright discrimination and bigotry. And then there was a whole angle of pseudoscience, homeopathy and all these crazy things that I would spend then, you know, the first half hour of a practice either saying something, I was the only one in the band that, you know, came at it from a skeptical point of view. So I would be, you know, trying to have them like epistemology to in street epistemology. But then it just it got so tiresome. Yes, you know, I dread I dread going to band practice. And so eventually the last day I said, OK, what do you so and so want to play or shall we start playing? Because I've had enough this conversation. And so of course, as the singer, I was picking the song. So I put so we did stuck in the middle with you. And that was my last practice. Yes, sometimes cultures evolve like we've talked about that before in the show. And if they become toxic, it's good to remove yourself from because there's so many other cultures and you can make your own culture too. And I think that's a really important point. And that's a good way to show that you turn the other cheek because you didn't go in there with, haha, this is my last practice and I'm pumping in gas. That's toxic into this room. We're all going down with me. It's like, no, you're just like a room itself in the situation. You guys be you, right? I like that. And there's good examples of that. God, learn from that. OK, whichever God heard me, Larry, that's the end of the show. Would you mind getting ready to take us out? You can play the ending music and start the lights dread. Where can we find stuff at? So you can find me on my YouTube channel at Mind Pirate, P-Y-R-A-T-E. And I live stream this show on Sunday mornings at 8 a.m. Pacific Standard Time or Pacific Daylight Time, depending on what it is. And yeah, please sign up and I need 10 more subscribers and I can do some, you know, do some monitoring of my channel and whatnot. So if you like it, sign up and I'll be here every Sunday as long as we're doing the show. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, I love doing the show. Buffalo, what's you said you had a lab? Is there a good science thing we should check up on before next week? Is there anything that you would recommend like, hey, here's something cool. Chick-fil-A guy CEO, should we Google that? Like, what would you recommend that we look into before next week? How can we better ourselves through education? Oh, I don't know. I've been reading some stuff on how how the DNA of a child can, in fact, be changed by because of serious trauma. Whoa, that speaks to the fact that, you know, that's a nature versus nurture thing. Yeah, that's a lot of marketing. But that the post-translation or once the DNA makes the protein or just in between those steps, there can be modifications and they can be altered by extreme behaviors. Nice. Nice. That affects criminality, that affects a lot of things. But it's an up and coming area of science. That's the question of how, you know, our DNA is not fixed and how can it be changed by nurture, by extreme nurture? And there is evidence for it now. That's pretty interesting. I dig it. I follow it. George Brown, I hear you breathing on the mic. I apologize. And I assure you, I will try to use a directional microphone next time I come in. Following up on what George Buffalo just said is I have been looking into cluster B personality disorders. That's a psychological criteria. It's very interesting to me. And what I wanted to do was just recommend learning about people who have a very negative effect on the rest of us. Well, not bad. Then coming to terms of that, yeah, Larry, I think that's a great point. Larry, why don't you take us out? We've got like 20 seconds. Where do we find your stuff? Don't worry about it. You're already on that channel. Larry, what do you got? Well, my own content can be found at digitalfreethought.com. Be sure to click on the blog button for a radio show archives of atheist songs. These are articles, these shows, all of that will be found on digitalfreethought.com. If you if you go to YouTube, you can find my channel by searching for Doubt or Five or Larry Rhodes. My book Atheism, What's It All About is available on Amazon and electronic format or paperback. If you have any questions for the show, you can send them to askanatheistatnoxfilatheist.org. We'll answer them on future shows. If you have trouble leaving religion behind, you can go to recoveringfromreligion.org and find people that will help you. If you're watching this on YouTube, be sure to like and subscribe. This has been the Digital Freethought Radio Hour.  The time to worry about it is when they prove that heavens and hell's and souls are real. Until then, don't sweat it and enjoy your life. We'll see you next week. Say bye, everybody. All right, everybody. Bye, everybody. OK, see you.


So guys, I am back with another Elden Ring video and today I bring you the best 3 working room farm spots after the 1.07 patch outside of the Mugwin Dynasty area so you don't need to have access to the Mugwin Dynasty area to farm these 3 spots. How's it going guys? My name's DPJ and if you enjoyed the video, leave a like, it really helps out and if you like what you see and want to see more, be sure to subscribe. Okay so the first one guys is located right here, this is the greatest point you need to come to, within the mountain top of the Giants, it's called the Giants Grave Post. So come here and then simply guys, right that's the greatest there, jump on your horse and just run this way. Now all 3 of these farms require you to literally throw yourself off the map and swing that weapon earning roughly around 80k, probably I think one just over, actually one could be 100k, but yeah either way it's between that.  Don't worry about it, look like you fall into your death, sometimes this happens, it doesn't matter, just keep swinging, just keep swinging and you'll get those runes pop up on your screen literally after about 30 seconds to a minute, sometimes a little bit longer and that wouldn't actually do you pop up on your screen guys, all you gotta do is just fast travel back to that greatest point and you can rinse and repeat this. It really is that easy now, I can't remember how much you used to get doing this, also guys I'm not playing on a new game plus, I'm still on my first play through so keep that in mind, if you're playing on a new game plus 1, 2, 3, this is a double triple quadruple, you get the juice, you get the juice, so yes just keep spamming, we don't actually have to spam, you like attack button by the way, you just have to press it like once every 3 to 5 seconds and it delay where it stops you dying and what actually happens then guys is the map up here despawns, the enemies fall to their death and you get their runes, it really is as simple as that, there you go, it says 4000 but actually I got, there you can see it's 50, 60 thousand there, 63 thousand I got then just for that, so yeah it's not bad whatsoever, I'm not sure if you carry on falling, yeah you get another burst just like so, so as you can see it's about 70, yeah I thought it was roughly about, I thought it was about 80 but it's 75 thousands about right so then simply guys, all you do is fast travel back to the point, just like so, just like so and then you can just rinse and repeat, you can just rinse and repeat that, it really is that simple, okay so the next one guys is located up here, Odina liturgical town, now to actually gain access to this area guys you need to get the hallig tree medallion and use it down here, now I'll leave a link in the video description how you get the hallig tree medallion, it's not too hard to balance, it's plenty of glitches out there that can assist you in killing the boss within castle so, it can be a bit of a pain in the arse but actually you know if you jump off the map close to him, he actually dies, he can just run past him and get the one half the hallig tree medallion at the chest up here, the other half comes from, if I remember rightly down here somewhere he spawned like this, I don't think it's that gray's point, it's somewhere around here, I think it's that one, you run up this hill and there's a guy hiding in the basket, I'm sure he gives you the other half, either way guys it's been a while, but yes you'll find that linked in the video description if you're unsure so we need to go to this gray's point right here, that's where we're gonna go, that's where we're gonna go people, now I can't believe that the patch, the latest patch was so big, it was on but absolutely incredibly massive okay so once you're here, again pull out your horse and come this way, now what you actually have to do here guys is, if you haven't done this already, you need to there's actually going to be a seal over this door up here, so when you first initially come here guys you won't actually have access to this point, actually there's a seal in this door, you actually have to clear that seal and how you do this guys is you go to this ever gel, it's the ever gel right here and you basically go inside of it and you actually have to activate three candles, three or four, there's one in that that tower there, there's one up there, somewhere I'm pretty sure there's one down there too, but it's very easy guys nothing hard about it, once you do that you'll be teleported back here and the seal up there will be broken, and this is where this exploit, this glitch works, so you need to run and jump past the right side of that teleport right there, you can't get this, you probably won't get this right first time, but just jump and delay that second jump for as long as you can and then just swing, make sure you delay that second jump and it really is that simple now I actually can't remember how much you get from this one, I think this one could be 100k, maybe a little bit less, I think I've got what 40, well 1.4 million is it, or 1.475,000 I got, but you guys can do the maths, you guys are better at maths than me, I'm bored, I'm tired, I'm burnt out, yeah, should be nice to be honest I didn't think I was going to come back to this game until DLC or something because I just did absolutely everything on it, I just got bored of it really that's crazy because I got like seven hunts, well last time I checked it was close to 600 hours in it, well that's just on with this character it's not my other characters, I got quite a few of them so yeah, yeah so you can understand I probably like burnt out, and it's actually my first playthrough by the way, I haven't gone into new game plus shit like I said I'm still looking for an excuse, someone give me a reason to go into new game plus and I'll do it, if not keep your mouth quiet motherfuckers, but yeah there we go I'm not even sure how much that was, that looked like 140k to me, 130k to me something like that, so that's actually quite a good spot right there it's actually quite a good spot right there, I don't think you're getting a burst of these, we'll keep falling for a split second, you might do you might not I cannot remember, actually if you get it don't matter, you guys can try that for yourselves, then guys just fast travel back to that grace point, it really is that simple, okay so the third and final spot which we can farm is located right there, so you want to come to this tunnel, I don't even know what that says, the annex tunnel we're going to say the annex tunnel, so yep just want to teleport down there, if you haven't come down here yet just run down to this tunnel, pretty easy to get to, nothing really new way, it's a little bit of fog, a little bit of thrust, now you initially actually have to come down here to actually activate this grace point, so yep there we go, now we want to go back up, that's the grace point we're going to use for this farm, so a quick little trick to make it a little bit faster for yourself is as you go up here, you want to send the lift back down, so it's waiting for you when you actually flash over back, so now we want to run out of this cave, and we're going to jump off the map again to pull out our horse, and we're going to run to the right of that rock, double jump delaying that second jump like one, two then just swing your weapon away, and it really is guys, I think this one may give you a closer to 100k, not as much as the last one but more than the first one, I'm quite sure that, again you guys can do the maths, and these are more or less people who haven't got access to the Mugwin dynasty area yet, so yeah just keep that in mind, just giving you guys options to farm those runes if you want to farm them, nothing will beat the Mugwin dynasty hill with a relic sword or any weapon that can take out all those, I'll be in next quickly, you get like 3k per enemy, there's like 20 there maybe, probably a little less, and you can do that literally every 50 to 20 seconds earning millions and millions, I think I might have actually timed it over now, I can't remember how much I got but it was quite a lot, it was quite a lot, so we're just going to keep swinging here, and eventually they will pop up on your screen, again I can't remember what the total was here for runes, but there we go, 77,000 was that then, my eyes are so tired, struggling to keep them awake, could we just drop for a few more seconds, you see, there's one of these ones that give you a second burst of runes, I can't remember which one it was, I know the first one does but I'm sure between the second and the third one I've showcased today, you do get a second burst of runes, maybe not, maybe I'm just an idiot and I've just forgot, but hey, but if we're guys from here then you just fast travel back to that grace, simple as that, and from here again you just step on the lift, turn around step on the lift, go back up, rinse and repeat, and there we have it guys, three of the best rune farms outside of the Mogwind Dynasty area, you can farm to earn those runes, guys if you enjoyed the video, leave it a like really helps out, if you like what you see and want to see more out of it, be sure to subscribe, and hopefully guys, I will see you on that next one


So here we are running Unity 5.0 on Ubuntu 11.10. I installed it a couple of hours ago and I've been using it and I haven't seen any problems so I think it's quite stable for anyone to use it but of course since it's still in a stagging process so you should be careful while using it. Let's see what's new here. One thing that you do need to get the most out of Unity is to install complex settings manager. Once you install it, you will be able to control Unity very well. One thing I didn't like about launcher Unity was that auto height feature because sometimes it takes so much time to call it and an impatient user may not want it so I disable it so it's always there just like a panel. One thing more that I have done is I have reduced the size of the launcher so it's only 32 pixels which is which is as thick as the top bar so it doesn't take up much space on my 32-inch screen and I can put more icons there. So these are the two settings that I do by default. Now if you look at this experimental tab of complex settings, that's where all the magic starts. A new thing with the dash or Unity 5.0 is now you can also change the color of dash and launcher. Look at this option here. You can select the color of your choice. Just make sure that the opacity is there so that you know you see the color otherwise it is low. You won't see any change there. It will be just transparent so increase it and then turn it on and then you'll see it's it's your color whatever you choose that of course is the back color so I'll go with something which is a bit darker like black and now that's what I get so that's cool. So it's not logged to the current theme you're using. Theme colors are not good for dash. You can always pick the color. Another important thing that has happened with this version is that now when you open an app the menus are since I have disabled global menu because I don't like them what happens is when you open a new app the global menu the menus on top are visible for a while so if there is a new user he will be able to see where the menus are if you won't be struggling to see where the menus are hiding. You can control the auto fading time from this settings. You can increase it and decrease it though I typically I just remove global menu because I have a big screen and you can imagine if I have like and I have a dual machine a dual monitor so if I have like two or three or five application which is my typical user scenario it's very hard for me to go up there all the time so I think that's a cool thing to be able to disable it. Another cool thing with the Unity is when you right-click on it you can instead of removing something the option is unlocked from the launcher so that's another cool change here it will it will make it clear that you are just unlocking this item from the launcher. When you look at dash when you right-click on it you can you can open application music files and for I don't know why the movies are missing but when you open it all you see is application so it's quite easy for somewhat if you just want to open files and photo you can open that if you want to open music you can open that so that's yet another cool customization that is available there and that's pretty much what it is in the new Unity. It is competitively faster but I don't use it that much because all my icons are already listed here so I just access them easily at disable global menu so that's not a problem either way and it's at the end of the day it's a button to which is which works out of the box it's it's a stable and it's based on Debian so just enjoy it