And welcome back everybody. Jeff Frick here with theCUBE. We're having a CUBE conversation in our Palo Alto studios. We're excited to have our next guest who is an Abbey Award winner from the Grace Hopper. A celebration we've been computing early in October. We tried to get her on then. Schedules didn't match, so it took us a few months but we're really excited to have our next guest. She's Mercedes Soria. She's a VP of Software Engineering for NISCO. Mercedes, welcome. Thank you, thank you. I'm so happy to be here. Absolutely, so congratulations again on your award for leadership and part of the winnings of that is you got to keynote in front of 18,000 people.  Yes, I was, what was Grace Hopper? It was a huge community of women in technology. I was so excited to be there.  Everybody was trying to help each other.  And obviously it's focused on STEM careers which is one of my passions. So I was so glad to be there.  So I hadn't done that before, so I can check it off. My bucket list, that was one thing. And it was so amazing.  So it was once in a lifetime opportunity that I'm very grateful for. It's an amazing accomplishment. Again, congratulations. And it's an amazing show. If you haven't been to Grace Hopper, you have to sign up, how fast you say it, Zelda? 25 minutes. 25 minutes, so. Go to AnitaBee.org now, that's right, they changed URL to check it out. So let's jump in about night scope. So for the people who aren't familiar, go to the website nightscope.com, a bunch of really cool, fun stuff. Tell us about what night scope's all about. So night scope is a company that is trying to cut it, to cut the crime cost to the U.S. in half. So most people don't know that the U.S. spends about $1 trillion a year just to deal with crime in the U.S. So our goal at night scope is to cut that in half. With the use of new technologies like artificial intelligence, machine learning, and robotics, we have a group is software plus hardware plus humans. So we take the good things that humans do, which is make strategic decisions. The good things the machines do, which is do the monotonous work and store data for a very long time. And we combine those to try to help with crime. Right, so that's a nice explanation. The short answer is if you go to the website, it's all rolled up into these cool robots that look like C-3PO. And I'm wondering if there's a little man inside there, but we'll get into that later. But I think it's a really interesting concept because you are bringing together many of the hot topics in technology right now. So one of them just with robotics. I mean, you've got these robots of various shapes and sizes. But as you said, really it's the synergy of the robots with the people that give kind of a one plus one makes three effect. How is it, you know, where are those kind of points of intersection and how does the robot help the human do a better job and how does the human help the robot do a better job? Yeah, so the robot helps the human because in this case security guards have to walk around the same places all day long, right? They have their roots, they do that all day long and they get very, very bored. And they get to the point where they don't care anymore and they just scan a badge and then that is the job, right? So that's what the robots do, which is they don't mind going around the same area all day long recording data, recording video. That's what the synergy is. Now, what the robots at this point can do is make a decision in terms of, okay, I have these five things, should I make an alarm to my supervisor and set a garnish to come, right? The robot only provides information. So all of that information that we provide is so the human can make a decision on what to do next.  Does your robot tie back into those facilities? Is it a different layer on top of it? How does it work with the existing security infrastructure that's already in place? Yeah, so the existing security infrastructure is a bit separate at this time. There is a project that we're working on in terms to integrate because there's so many security systems out there. For a startup like us, we need to be very smart in terms of where we spend our resources. So we gotta do a study and figure out which would the better sender send, the better companies that we need to partner with to do that. So by this point, it's a separate tool. So you open it, all you need is a Chrome browser. You can open it from anywhere in the world. And your security people can look at all the data the machine has collected. Right, so the other interesting piece that you're tying together via these machines is really this combination of AI and ML, artificial intelligence machine learning. But also, your background is in user interface. So it can't just be happening in the background because these machines need to do their job executing through and with people on the UI side and the security guards and the security infrastructure behind them. So as you've kind of introduced more AI and machine learning into the software components that you can drive the UI, how is that changing the world? How's the UI world changing because now you've got so much more data and so much more kind of compute behind that before it even gets to the actual user that's interfacing with it? Yes, so the UI is a lot more rich these days. It used to be a web page and HTML and JavaScript page and that's all it did, right? But now we have a lot more information that we can provide. For example, we have machine learning algorithms that detect if there's people in an image.  It makes your experience a lot more inclusive. In another potential integration point, right? Obviously with photos in the security system for IDs and passes and all those things. Yeah, even face detection at some point as well is very important for us. Now you have four different models. What are, why do you have so many models? What's kind of the use cases that would drive you to have four different models? Hard to support four models instead of one as a startup? Yes, so customers have very different needs. So crime doesn't happen just in a shopping mall. Crime happens at PG&E offices. It happens at the mall. It happens at different locations. It could be outside, it could be inside, it could be in a hospital, it could be in a parking lot. So what we tried to do was to cover all of those potential places where crime would be. So with that, we have four products. We have the K5, which is our first product. It goes into ADA compliant environments like hospitals and data centers. It's a big robot and mainly used for things like a parking lot to detect license plates, to make sure that it's monitoring all the outside. Our second product is the K3, which is a smaller machine and what it does is mainly goes inside. It can go through a door and it can do things like monitoring who's at the office at night, racing on alert if there was a fire, stuff that happens inside. We have the K7, which goes to outside places where you have things like speed bumps. You have different kind of terrain, gravel, or other type. And then the K1, which is our static model that what we're working on that for the future is to have concealed weapon detection at that point, which is something that is very useful for places that have like for hospitals when somebody comes in they wanna be able to know if these people are armed. All right. I'm just curious if you can share where customers have seen the most impact, the most benefit by using one of your robots. What specific kind of behaviors has just been a game changer when they've put in a night scope robot? Yeah, so I can't tell you the actual customer that is something outside. No, no, that's okay. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But I would tell you one example. We have, for example, a hospital. This place is open 24-7, obviously the emergency room. And when they will have, it's down in LA. So they will have at least one break-in every week at the parking lot.  And then nurses now feel safe for going to their cars. People feel safe for going there at night. So that is one example. We also had an example of a shopping mall where there was a guy who was basically exposing himself and nobody could catch him because he would drive. As soon as he saw a security guard, he would drive out. So we were able to catch that person as well. There are some people who came to steal merchandise. So they came, they stole something they left and the very next day they come back and they try to sell these back to the mall people. So by seeing who these people are and then determining that they came back to the mall, we were able to apprehend them as criminals. Right. On the first example, on the parking lot example, does the robot have kind of active deterrents that it can do? Can it sound alarms? Like lights, I mean, to make people feel safer in a parking lot, that's very different than just kind of monitoring things. Yeah, so what the robot does is it has a sound that it's all day, it's playing that sound. There's a lot of lights, the lights change color, the term based on what's happening around the robot. Another thing that we have that helps a lot of people feel safe, we have a push to talk functionality. So if you were feeling something was wrong and you can push that button and you can directly talk to the people at the security operation center. Right, right.  There's different functionality that we have that helps people feel that they're safe outside. Right. And on the shoplifting one, it's interesting, right? Because lots of stores have cameras, right? That's not a new thing. So what did your system do differently that the regular kind of camera that they had in there before probably would have filmed the person but didn't necessarily, was it firing off the alert, recognizing they were back again? Did somebody go in and manually type in this particular person in the shoplifting? How did you guys take it to a much different level than just kind of a static security cam? So the main thing that you should keep in mind for static cameras is there's always black spots, blind spots, there's no way that they can see everything. And mainly you have cameras inside of the shops. You don't have them outside. So what we did is we not only got the video of the person inside of the shop, but we saw them when they came outside. We saw them when they were moving. All of this is recorded in video. And we can then match them and see the people who were. Another thing that we do that cameras don't do is we can detect your mobile devices. Anything that has, that is looking for a network, we can identify that device. So, and that is always for you and that's always for that device. So we can match those devices when they come in. Right. And like, we shouldn't have waited this long, but that one of the most interesting things about the company and what you guys do, and it's highlighted by what you just said is a way you go to market. People are not buying these robots, right? You offer the robots as a service. So, really interesting model and really brings up interesting things. Like you just said, where you can do all kinds of software upgrades. You can do hardware upgrades. You can do all types of changes to the actual unit that the customer just benefits as a classic SaaS model. So how did you get to that stage and how do people like having now kind of a simple monthly payment with all the upgrades and constant, I would imagine a lot of upgrades coming pretty consistently. Pretty interesting way to go to market. How is that received in the market? It's very well. People really accept it, especially when it's a new technology. We decided from the beginning that we wanted to be to own the whole technology stack and even the robot itself. Because we knew there would be a lot of upgrades. We knew there would be changes and we wanted to serve our customers in the best way that was possible. So to help people adopt new technology, we help them with how do they perceive it on a daily basis.  Or if you said I charge you $10 an hour and give you a robot that not only changes software every other week, it changes hardware every six months and you have whatever robot will fit your needs the best. People are really accepting of that model to the point that all the companies are jumping into the same thing. It's really interesting because then it begs kind of where you guys will develop as a company. Are you a robotics company? Are you a software company? Are you a software monitoring company? Do you become really a security AI company that pulls from lots of different data and lots of different sources? It really opens up a broad range of opportunities for you guys in which you want to go or where you find your most expertise or kind of where the market takes you. Pretty exciting way to go to market. Yeah, so what we decided to do was we wanted to be the apple of security guards. So what Apple does is they have their software, the hardware, they own all of it and therefore they have a very loyal following. We want to beat that for security guards. So we own the whole environment, we make changes when we need to and then we go to market that way. Okay, that's, it's a great story. And again, it's nightscope.com. They're fun pictures for one, but it's a great story. But before I let you go, Telly would not be happy if I didn't take a few minutes to talk about your journey. How did you get here? VP of software engineering, you know, software's eating the world. It's a great place to be. You've got a solutions-based system, really it's a bunch of metal wrapped up with software inside. So how did you get here? And I wonder if you can share a little bit of your journey to become VP of software engineering. Yeah, so I am an immigrant. I'm not from the U.S. I was born in South America. And when you're in South America and somebody tells you, hey, there's an opportunity for you to go study in the U.S., you take that opportunity. So I came to the U.S. to study for college. I had a matchellers in computer science and then a masters in computer science. Where did you go to school? I went to Middle Tennessee State University. And like I said, when somebody tells you you're going to the U.S., you don't ask questions, you just go. So who made you that offer? How did that come about? My university in Ecuador, where I was from, they had an agreement with the university in Tennessee. So they will send students back and forth on an exchange program. Okay, so you're a good student. They identified you as having great potential and you got picked for that program. So 5,000 people apply for 20 spots when I applied. Wow. So 20 of us came and out of the 20, the only two people who are staying in the U.S., my sister and I were twins. I have a twin sister. Because you had your sister for support, maybe? Probably. I've probably had a lot to do with it. That's an interesting case. With technology, I found my way into Nightscope. And Nightscope is a really good company for women in technology specifically. And that is some of the work that I pushed myself to do. Our women in technology numbers are about 25 to 28% of the company, which is a huge number for Silicon Valley. Right. And then we hire women, we try to mentor them.  And when did you discover your affinity for computer science? See, it's always a great debate, right? As to when is the best time or when is the optimal time or the most popular time for young girls and then eventually young women to get involved in STEM. What was your experience? So I lived with my uncle and Ecuador and my mother. So I always knew I wanted to do something structured. And at the beginning he was an architect so I thought I would be an architect. But then I started reading some science fiction books. And the closest thing for me to science fiction making that reality was career in computer science and technology. So that's how I started. And that has led me to now night's scope. So and we're doing the most advanced technology that is out there. We're out there with artificial intelligence. We have machine learning. All of the technologies that are out there, robotics, we are using them to put them to use for the greater good. Our job is to keep America safe and we all are working towards that goal. But I think you just wanna make something fun that looked like C3BO. It's more like actually to actually, and if you wanna see more go to nightscope.com. Okay, and final question. So your advice, more general advice to older girls or young women in terms of what they should do if they want to get into this or why they should consider a career in STEM if they haven't already. A career in STEM is very, very rewarding. You're going to be doing sometimes things that nobody else has done ever before.  And it's actually exciting. When you find other women that do what you want to do, look at people's backgrounds, look at what they've done, look what they're trying to accomplish and then make sure that you get into their lives and they help you through it. There's a lot of women who will be happy to help out and one of those is me. I'd be glad to help people out. Mercedes, thank you so much again for spending some time. Congratulations on the award and coming in and telling us your story and educating us more on nightscope. Thank you. And if everybody wants to know, nightscope.com, they can find all about our technology. All right. She's Mercedes. I'm Jeff Frick. We've been having a cute conversation in Palo Alto. Thanks for watching. We'll catch you next time.


ECB price stability Price stability is defined as year-on-year increase in the harmonized index of consumer prices for the euro area of below 2%. The ECB priority is price stability. From Finland to Greece, good buy volatility. But can the economy come to a slow? Don't worry, because deflation is a no-go. Will the price go up high through the roof? Chill, because Europe is hyperinflation-proof. That's why 2% or below is the goal. It keeps the economy stable just like my rap flow. The ECB keeps track of all years and prices. How is that measured with the use of indexes, which measure price levels good in services? Mark III policy is used by two to regulate the pace of the economy. By the ECB in complete autonomy. Tell me more, that sounds so cool. Contractionary, if going through a boom to slow down prices, me and the RECROM are also explaining expansionary. I know that more than ordinary. It's pretty easy. It's about growth. I'm almost done. I've covered both. I've also got more surprises. Some marketing talent, idolized. A piece of Italian to understand how it goes. To center the other bank in 3-5-0. Privat in bank with the Pest in Denone. It's easier to invest in the RECROM here. The effect of the increase or the offer of currency. The quality of the advice is not bad. Only the 24 is present in Mario Draghi. Stop planning and where we'll be going. Our religious hope MD ain't joking. Gotta make this bars odd cause this bit ain't frizzing. My rap is solely gold like when tentative ising. Fixing the Eurozone clearly ain't easy. Check out this policy. It's cool, believe me. It's a big gang purchase bonds and assets. Make money, cash. Flood into the markets. Interest rates for sure go down. Lungs thrown around. Cash flows in. Income rises. Boy recession. No more crisis.


Hi, my name is Joe. I'm here today with a man who needs no introduction, Ceezy from Binance. Ceezy, hello, welcome, bienvenue. How are you doing today? T'ai bien. It's been here a couple of days and already learning French. I actually learned French for many years, but that's always my worst course in high school. Okay, okay. Whereas crypto, obviously very, very ahead in terms of crypto. So we've just come from your stage this morning where you were talking about the best way to handle a business is to step out and to look at it from a different perspective. How do you personally detach yourself from managing Binance, this giant that you've built? So for Binance, anything that's operational, I don't touch. And if I touch it, it's going to be a disaster because it's going to be stuck all the time. So we've moved away from... But you can only do that once your team gets to a certain size, of course. So you can't do a startup that way. And so once a team gets to a certain size, they actually don't want me to touch operational stuff. So I typically get involved in newer things and less certain, less procedural type of things. So anything that can be proceduralized, investments, we have an investment team doing that. Listing, we have a listing team doing that. Running the exchange, we have a team doing that. And like for example, dealing with regulations, talking with senior government officials, etc. Now I have to do some of that. Hiring the best people at the senior levels, I have to do some of that. So I do more of those type of more strategic, not urgent type of things. Okay, yeah, absolutely. I mean, just on that note of hiring executives and talking to regulators, I mean, I have a list here, which I'm not going to read out today. But Binance has hired execs from the Dubai FinTech Authority, the Dutch police, the IRS, I could go on. I mean, what's the play here? What are you getting at? It's very simple, right? So number one, we started as a technology startup. So we didn't have a strong compliance background. And so the best place to hire this compliance background is either from traditional banks or from traditional regulators. And we hired many people from banks as well. But hiring people from existing regulators is good in a number of ways. They come in, they can look at what we're doing in a lot of detail, give us a gap analysis, help us how to improve, et cetera. More importantly, they can communicate with their ex-colleagues. The regulators are still today. In a way, they understand each other. And they also have, many of them have the history going back 10, 15, 20 years. And then when they say something, they believe each other because they use a common language. Whereas when the regulators ask me questions, when I say something, they sometimes are a little bit skeptical. I'm a crypto guy. Do I really know my stuff or stuff like that? So the communication really improves and the trust really improves. And the knowledge base for us really improves. So we find that super helpful. So in places where we were able to hire ex-regulators, we see the relationship communication improve almost immediately. And so that has been a huge help. Absolutely. Okay. And so you occupy a unique vantage point in the crypto industry. Is there perhaps a trend or an undercurrent, something that perhaps people aren't noticing at the moment that you're quite keen to talk about today? Not so much, to be honest. Crypto is pretty transparent. We actually have to monitor the industry trends carefully to make sure that we don't miss anything. So when DeFi is growing, we're like, hey, what are we doing in the DeFi? Are we doing enough investments? Are we doing enough projects in the DeFi space? When NFTs are growing, we have to say, hey, are we doing enough? So we don't have a lot of extra information that people don't have. In fact, on the contrary, we often get too busy running Binance.com that we might miss something that's popular now. So many people think I know all the coins. I have a vantage point. But the fact is, I don't know most coins because I'm busy running Binance. Well, I'm not really doing much, but I still have a lot of meetings. So I'm still pretty busy. Absolutely. Okay, well, let's flip the question around then. What are you most excited about in 2022? I think 2022, we are now seeing regulators want to attract this industry now. So I think that's one of the most fundamental things we should see. Multiple countries like, you know, US issued their executive order. They want to do their stable coin. Dubai issued the regulatory framework and issued a number of licenses to big players, which is significant. Getting licensed in Bahrain in other places. And also now we're in France. France, Portugal, Sweden, Gibraltar, they're all very positive towards crypto. So I think that really helps adoption. And the other stuff, like the industry always innovating like there's Gamify, there's Metaverse. Not sure how they will shape. Gamify, I think, is pretty standard now. I think it's continued to iterate and improve. Metaverse, multiple companies are trying different things. We'll see how you place out. Yeah, yeah, never sure. We're here today in La Borce, which is the old stock exchange. And of course, you're explaining the story earlier. I just thought it might be interesting to share it today. So where's the location of where we are right now and where's the French regulator? So in setting up this conference, our team, our France team, they asked for permission to put a banner, say Binance. We love France on the top of the building, which is the Borce, the traditional exchange building. And also the AMF office is right across the street and they have a view on this building. My understanding is our team specifically got permission from them to have the banner set up so that we didn't want to surprise them with hanging our banner on top of the exchange building and surprise them. So we explicitly got permission and they're totally cool with it. So which shows that the progressiveness of the French government, the French regulators, that they are extremely confident, extremely progressive and extremely pro-industry. So yeah, so I think just little things like that you can tell. Yes. It gives you the indication of how comfortable we feel with the governments here and that's why we want to make heavy investments. We want to grow the industry here. Absolutely. I mean, you don't get much more transparent than that, do you? No. You can just flag on the top of the Borce. Yeah. So I think it's just one of those little things that, you know, a little bit more promotion, et cetera. But it's great to have that support from the regulators, the government and also the other industry players here. Thank you so much for your time this morning, C-Z. It was lovely to talk to you and yeah, best of luck with the confidence. Thank you so much for having me as always. Thank you.


Ladies and gentlemen, the President of the United States and Mrs. Reagan. Marks at this point say let us welcome the President and Mrs. Reagan. I would consider Mr. President that we have certainly done that. I would like now pleased to ask you to remain standing and to introduce Father Shea, who will give us the invocation. We pray our God that you will continue to give us the will to cherish and practice the four values, firm faith, strong families, hard work, and love of learning, so founded in your teaching, so exemplified by Hispanic Americans, and now so personified and eloquently articulated by our President. We ask this in your son's name, amen. And would you please remain standing now for the Pledge of Allegiance, by the flag of the United States of America and to the Republic for which it stands, one nation under God, indivisible with liberty and justice for all. For having the courage to begin restoring quality to American education, giving our children to deeply for your initiative throughout the Americas, such as your Caribbean basin. We want to thank you for your sensitivity to the peoples of the border states. You have had the courage to live up to your promises and to extend the promise of a brighter future for all of us. Today, on behalf of those of us here, on behalf of millions of Hispanic Americans, and on behalf of all Americans who love their liberty, their opportunities, and their future, we want to say that the American people are letting you know we want you to run. To present to you the President of the United States of America through 1984, and God willing, through 1988, the Honorable Ronald Reagan. Thank you very much. Thank you very much. Thank you very much. Ambassador John Gavin, dear so Delhunko, I thank you both for those magnificent words. Reverend clergy, the members of the Congress who are here, other members of government, but especially all of you ladies and gentlemen of this Hispanic assembly. Let me welcome you to Washington, and I know that Nancy joins me in this, and welcome to the Twilight Zone. I should warn you that things in this city aren't often the way they seem. Where but in Washington would they call the department that's in charge of everything outdoors, everything outside the Department of Interior? I know I've probably told some of you this little anecdote, but I'm going to tell a dedicated attire show here tonight again. You know, life not only begins at 40, but so does the tendency to tell stories over and over again to the same people. I know I have told some of you. It is said that Castro was making a speech to a large assembly, and he was going on at great length, and then a voice out in the crowd said, Peanuts, popcorn, crackerjack, and he went on speaking, and again the voice said Peanuts, popcorn, crackerjack, and about the fourth time this happened he stopped in his regular speech, and he said the next time he says that he says I'm going to find out who he is and kick him all the way to Miami, and everybody in the crowd said Peanuts, popcorn, crackerjack. Some things in life, however, are exactly as they seem. I know that I can always count on the ideals and the convictions of the Republican National Hispanic Assembly. Each of you should be congratulated for what you've done, but accomplishments also require leadership, and tonight I'd like to take this opportunity to thank Terceau Delhunko for the great job that he's doing here with the Republican National Hispanic Assembly. I'm delighted that we could gather to share our hopes and dreams for America. I've always believed that this blessed land was set apart in a special way, that there was some divine plan that placed the two great continents here between the oceans to be found by people from every corner of the earth who had a deep love for freedom and the courage to uproot themselves, leave home and friends, and come to a strange land. You here tonight are part of this tradition, and whether your journey here began in the Caribbean Islands, or North, or South, or Central America, we came together all as Americans. That's the heritage of this Western Hemisphere. Now, perhaps you are the first generation citizens of the United States of America, or the second, perhaps, or the third, or perhaps as far back as the United States herself goes, but there are no prouder, more patriotic Americans than are gathered here tonight in this room. We all believe in America's mission. We believe that in a world wracked by patriot and crisis, America remains mankind's best hope. The eyes of history are upon us, counting on us to protect the peace, promote a new prosperity, and provide for a better tomorrow. This evening I want to talk to you as Republicans and Hispanics and as Americans for most of all about these very values that we cherish so deeply. In recent years, America's values almost seemed in exile. Just consider where our nation was or where it stood just three years ago. Our leaders were struggling, shrugging their shoulders and saying that we were in some kind of a malaise and that our problems were unsolvable. Pessimism, totally inconsistent with our national character, had spread across this land and our leaders had forgotten the strength and determination that runs deep in our people. They'd forgotten that values, not programs, and policies serve as society's compass.  We need make no apologies to the world. After all, we do not occupy any countries. We don't build walls to keep our people in. And we don't cold, bloodedly open fire on aircraft loaded with innocent pastures. Americans didn't accept the idea that our best days were behind us. And neither did the Republican Party. And today it's then it's taken blood, sweat, and tears and a few legislative victories. But I'm pleased to report to you tonight, America's star is rising again and it is the star of the future. When we got to Washington, inflation was running at double digit levels as you remember and it had been doing so for two straight years. It was the worst performance in 60 years in our country. And inflation was taking an especially serious toll on those citizens with low incomes. In the two years before we took office, inflation decreased the purchasing power of low income people on a fixed income of $10,000 by over $2,000. Now if that's what they call democratic compassion, then the people can't stand too much of it. But here's the good news. We reduced that inflation to 2.4% for the last 12 months and that's the lowest 12 month rate in 17 years. Now they told us that it would take years, possibly decades, before we could bring down inflation. But they forgot about something that we'd brought with us to Washington. It's called determination. And besides that, we didn't know that you couldn't do it, so we did it. Today a family of four on a fixed income of $20,000 has $2,000 more in purchasing power this year alone than it would have had it if we hadn't slapped inflation down. I don't want to dredge up too painful a memory. But do you remember when interest rates were 21.5%? That was the equivalent of pouring concrete onto the economy. The economy hardened and then began collapsing. Well we cut the prime interest rate from 21.5%. It's now 11% and we're going to work so that those rates continue to decline and I think they're going to start doing that soon. And our economy becomes synonymous with economic growth. When we took office, this America was suffering from years of uncontrolled spending and taxation. Federal spending was growing at a rate that was steep enough to make a mountain goat dizzy. And the problem was that the Democrats genuinely believed and poor misguided things they still believe that money can buy happiness. Well federal tax money can't buy happiness. It can't buy our citizens real jobs and real opportunity. Ask the Democrats what it takes to get people back to work and they won't answer that we need responsible and constant economic policies. No, they'll answer that we need billions of dollars more in federal job programs. Well money alone can't buy our children quality education. I don't know how certain politicians with a straight face can tell taxpayers that simply more funds are needed to improve education. During the 20 year period between 1960 and 1980, spending on education was shooting up while college board scores were going down. If a 600% increase in 20 years in school spending could not make America smarter, how much more do we need? The Democrats' predictable answer is billions more, of course. Well federal money doesn't buy happiness except for the bureaucrats and the special interests that luxuriate in those programs that all it buys is a bigger debt. We haven't stopped the growth in federal spending but we've slowed it by almost 40%. And if the Congress acts responsibly and those who are present will, we can bring it further under control. I only wish the majority of that illustrious body were as responsible as Manny Lujan. Taxes were rising right along with spending and paying for all those special interest programs double the federal tax bite in just five years between 1976 and 1981. You know there's an old saying that in levying taxes as in shearing sheep, it's best to stop when you get to the skin. By the end of 1980 the tax rates were skinning the American taxpayer and we were paying with our hides. Average working people were being taxed at rates that only a short time before were reserved for the wealthy. We put into place a tax program that cut personal income tax rates across the board by 25%. Now that was a commitment we made to the working people of this country and we have another protection waiting in the wings. Soon, beginning in 1985, America's taxes will be indexed so that never again will government profit from inflation at the people's expense. The cumulative effect of all our economic efforts is now being felt. That's why they don't call it Reaganomics anymore. As they say down at Cape Canaveral, we have liftoff. Our economy is lifting off and it's because of the policies that we've been passing over the past two and a half years. Consumer confidence and spending are up, productivity is up, industrial production, retail sales, auto sales, housing and construction. Are all up since the beginning of the year and last quarter the economy grew at an annual rate of 9.2% a much bigger jump than anyone had predicted. Although unemployment is still too high, it's coming down rapidly and we'll continue to chip away and knock that statistic down to size. As a matter of fact, last month it was the biggest single month drop in unemployment in 23 years. Now we must help those who through no fault of their own or without jobs, but let's be clear. Our goal isn't welfare or handouts, it's jobs and opportunity. And if I didn't believe that, I think you the people in this room would tell me that's what we need and what you want. Just as we've been building a stronger economy, we've been building a stronger defense. I know that you'll recall a few years ago our military personnel were putting their uniforms in mothballs and we had a lot of ships and planes that belonged there in mothballs. And this situation endangered our national security and the peace. As commander-in-chief I can say to you, America is more secure than she was three years ago. I've heard it from generals and I've heard it from privates that once again it's an honor to be in our military. We have an abundance of applicants with more education than ever before. Morale, discipline and unit cohesion have improved dramatically. Training and retention are up. Maintenance backlogs are being reduced. Combat readiness rates have surged. New equipment is being added to our inventory. Our military is once more becoming ship-shaped. In 1980, the people also made it clear that they wanted a new direction in foreign affairs. But we began by letting the world know what we stood for once again. For too long our nation had been mute to the injustice of totalitarianism. So we began speaking out against chemical warfare inflicted on the people of Afghanistan and Southeast Asia. Against broken treaties and against the denial of human liberties. We began speaking out for freedom and democracy and the values that all of us share in our hearts. And you know it's amazing, in my meeting with foreign leaders and their ministers, they've told me how good it is to know what the United States stands for once again. Now they may not always agree with us, but they respect us. There's a growing recognition abroad that America once again will stand up for her democratic ideals. Our country is the leader of the free world, and we morally cannot shirk that responsibility. We're providing democratic leadership in Central America. Ruthless power has set its sights on our neighbors in Central America and the Caribbean. The security aspect of this threat must be addressed. So we're helping our friends to defend themselves and we will continue to stand by them in their hour of need. But let's get one thing straight, and I don't know how many times we must repeat this before it sinks into the skulls of some in this town. The three dollars out of every four that we stand down there is in the form of humanitarian and economic aid. The people in Central America and the Caribbean are our neighbors. They need our help, and we will not abandon them to indifference. We're also pursuing peace through arms control. In our search for peace, we have more major negotiations underway with the Soviets than any administration in history. We've undertaken the most sweeping proposals for arms reduction since nuclear weapons became a threat. And for the first time, the Soviet Union is willing to talk about actual reductions rather than just ceilings as in previous administrations. In strategic nuclear forces, in intermediate-range nuclear forces, and in conventional forces, we want to lessen the danger to ourselves and our children. We remain flexible in our bargaining. But as commander-in-chief, I have an obligation to protect this country, and I will not let political expedience influence those crucial negotiations. We will restore equality of strength with the Soviet Union, either one way or the other, and the choice is theirs. I believe that we share a sacred responsibility, all of us, to maintain the opportunity and freedom we've enjoyed and to pass it on to future generations. Americans of Hispanic descent understand completely the traditional values of work, of family, of freedom, and of God. That's why I'm so supportive of VIVA-84. Your grassroots Hispanic voter education and registration drive conceived by Dr. Delhanco, well, America needs the values of our Hispanic citizens. We need those values to be expressed at the polls and through our political system. And I urge you, the members of the Republican National Hispanic Assembly, to run for public office so that your values will carry even more influence, and nothing would please me more than to see the Republican National Hispanic Assembly become the voice of millions of Hispanics in our country. As Republicans, we must work in unity toward 1984. We must pull together for the values we treasure. Hispanic Americans know the real meaning of this country. Those who fled oppression especially cherish America's freedom. Those who fled poverty especially cherish America's opportunity. And all of us deeply love this beautiful ideal that is America. Every American has the right to dream great dreams. I want to keep the dreams of even the poorest, most powerless American great because he and she are the hope and future and meaning of this nation. Tonight, my friends, I'm asking for your help, your commitment to preserving the American dream. And I have a hunch I know your answer already. Freedom, SIEMPRE, Opportunity, AHORA, America Fuerte. You know that this is Hispanic Heritage Week. Do you know that at the Pentagon, those great corridors over there are dedicated to various things that they want to keep before America and want to honor and remember. And one of those corridors is dedicated to those who have won that highest honor that our country can give, the Congressional Medal of Honor. And 37 of those who have won that honor since the Civil War are Hispanic Americans. Friday, I believe I have the day right. Friday the Pentagon is going to hold a ceremony there in honor of what Hispanic Americans have meant in arms and in preserving the peace in America by way of our men. In a little town in Illinois, there's a short street called Second Street in that town. There are 22 homes and families on that street, and those 22 families are all Hispanic Americans. And when war came, 85 sons of those 22 families went off to war for this country. Now a number of them did not come back, and the people of that little town, for their Hispanic American neighbors, have taken down the street signs that say Second Street. And it now reads Hero Street. I felt I, but you would want to know that, and I wanted to share it with you. But it is a proud record that you have.  And that is the first in and the last out. God bless you all.


The town versus Bradford City brings together two sides, he's both been in pretty decent recent form. Very different aspirations for the rest of the campaign. Crawling with 11 points from six before that four-one loss at Mansfield last time now. They are now two points clear of second-bottom heart for Paul. They try to continue their remarkable survival. For sure, that's that name. City six for a set-piece chance here. Four-ten make of the quarter. It's from a whipped-in wave. From straight back, it's the space out line. Another dangerous delivery. Not totally convincing. Just about dealt with in the end. He fits in there. It's not a trick trying his luck. He's fortunate to survive. He feels for handball as well. Wiped in by Halliday. Stem there and beat the run. Shot on the half-volley. Straight to Courier-Dyne. It's a power, but it's a take. They have had a run of draws recently. That's played in, and a chance! Well saved, brilliantly saved by Courier-Dyne to deny him the cook. The very most lethal strikers in the division this season almost had another here. Just cleverly got it past Conroy. What's that far post? Totally missed. Sting there was Derbyshire. And he goes short. Wiped cross, and over the bar. Had a little move at the goal to show for him. Solid away recently. And they're seven away since on the loss of Carla on Boxing Day. Stem that run here. Run of draws, four straight draws overall before that 3-2 home run against Grimsby six days ago. There's a bit of afters here, and now it started off the ball as well. Salah-Adeen right in the middle of it for Crawley. The referee's got a decision to make here. Consulting with his assistant referee about everything that went on and off the ball. Salah-Adeen get a yellow. Any one of us can feel low. Our thoughts can get us down. We can also feel worried about family and friends. But you don't need to struggle on your own. A helping hand is at the end of the phone or keyboard every day of the year.  It's a 1-0 home loss against Barrow in February, 4 draws and 4 wins since. Having their playoff credentials tested by Fully Townside with kind of recent resurgence. Coming forward again here. Nicely constructed move and totally loved by Tilly. Lovely dummy by Madison. Tilly just couldn't quite give you good chances for both teams. You're about to be another one here. It's Banks, Roames on. Banks, save by Dai. Feel the tension here. It's a lot to bow for these teams for different reasons. Fighting for survival, Bradford City might need to seal that playoff spot. It's a long way from certain at the moment.  You can't believe it. Used to seeing a chance like that for a couple of years now, but ended up at least on target, if not in the net. That's a foul. He is on the booking clap. That's a foul. Wicked ball in and brilliantly saved. Good effort from Ransom at the far post and Lewis was there. Still cheek for now at the header over the bar. Dangerous area. Thank you, I had the pleasure of first wicking for another channel. This could be a red card. I think it will be. It will be. Down to 10. In the 89th minute, Matthew Platt has to walk. He'll be living dangerously. Now gets his marching orders for a second bookable offence. It's late. It's clumsy. Here inevitable consequence with a foul on fellas. Small wood to help them out. Small wood to help win it back, but instead Crawley have got it back in this game of hot potato. Corner conceded. Corner. Chance on the half ball. He just sliced at it. He did have a bit of pressure on him. Probably helps force the error. By Lewis. In the city, find a winner. Another draw. They've had a fair few of them in recent times. All from the last five. Cross towards Cook. He was trying to make room for the shot. Appeals for a penalty. Can't believe it's not given. Add for the furious. Here's the evidence. Jim Mason. The goal here is almost certainly a winner. He managed to get a set piece of umbo. Good persistence. Forcing the foul. Floated up. The city came to power forward and try and win it. So that's that. It's a goal this draw. And it is yet another draw for Bradford City. A fifth in their last six. They do extend their unbeaten run to nine. They might feel like this is dropped points for Mark Hughes' side. Struggling with relegation, but Crawley Town's good recent run continues. Here's another valuable point for them in the fight against survival.


You've got to be a cohesive team. All right, you've got to learn from each other. Lethality, all right? Shooting them before what? You're right. Hey, you're gunned up, I'm proud of you. Right, this is the backbone of the battalion, right here. Cut up and provide security. Good to kept Brennan alive until he was evacuated. Yep, when you receive contact, drop the rocks. All right, and then. On the exhale. Get some. What's five degree angle? Functioning. And then you need to plot them. I'll tell you your distance, because then you'll be able to measure it once you have that. It helps to take care, too. There it is, there it is. Get to the air.


So ma research is looking at factors that help to protect against sexual offending. So a large part of the work we do in the criminal justice field is predicting who's going to go on to re-offend and who isn't. And we're getting pretty good at it, but there's still room for improvement. So for example, out of every 10 people that we deem to be at high risk of sexual offending, around 2 or 3 of those will be reconvicted within 5 years. Now that has led us to wonder, what's going on for those other 7 or 8 people? Are there things that are going on in their life that's helping to protect them against their high level of risk? So we know for example from research that people who have increased rates of pro-social support are less likely to re-offend than those who don't. Okay, so that one approach is taking a number of factors like that that have already been linked scientifically to reduce rates of re-offending, putting them together into a measure and seeing if that improves our ability to tell who's going to go on to re-offend and who's not. The other approach we're taking is a theoretical approach. So we're using something called the Good Lives Model that says we all have these same inherent basic human needs that we're all striving for, including you and I. But that when people sexually offend it's in the pursuit of those basic needs, but something goes wrong. So they're not able to meet those needs in a pro-social way. So what we're doing is we're looking at how people are going about meeting those basic needs. So for things like their need for relationships, their need for pleasure, their need for inner peace or freedom from stress. We've got ethical approval to do our research and we're just in the process of setting up who we can recruit as participants, trying to figure out how to actually go about doing this logistically.


So my name is Adam, and this will be a mostly discussion about modularity. And there will be short intro to just keep everyone on the same page. And then we can discuss various problems mostly like what should we modularize, what should we modularize, what is it useful for, etc. So who knows modularity? Who heard about modularity before? Almost everyone. That's good. Okay, so modularity is something regarding multiple versions of applications. That's probably true, right? And yes it is, this is the basics. But then there's the other question, if it solves all the multiple version problems? And that's where we have some confusion, because the answer is definitely no, not really. There are things that you could do before regarding multiple versions that you can do now. It helps with some things that you couldn't do before, but there are also cases that you could do without modularity, but modularity doesn't really help you, and we'll dig into those. So let's have a quick recap first, before we start discussing about the modularity concepts, what it is. So who heard about streams? Almost everyone heard about streams, of course. So just to recap is to put it super simple, like if I have Fedora releases, and there are some packages, if I want to modularize something, if I want to modularize the language, what happens is that just like there's this envelope around the package of language, and that's it. It's built a little bit differently, it's consumed, it can be consumed in a very similar way, but that's basically all the difference, but this isn't why we made it, right? We made it before because we want to have multiple versions. So there are two versions of the language, I still have the two versions of the language, but I can build both Fedora releases, so there's more flexibility what version you want to have, and you don't need to really care about what Fedora release you have because it's available for both. And there's this space called lang, because we have the lang modules, and you can think about it, there's just one slot on your system for every module, so you can install both, right? You can only install one version at the same time. So this is streams, I don't think that's new. Who heard about stream expansion? Okay, three people. So stream expansion is something, how do we deal with multiple versions of dependencies mostly? So imagine I have two language streams, the same ones we have before, and I have two applications, and both applications can work with both languages. I can say that I just want to build this, and it somehow expands, and that what happens with the binaries. I end up with four binaries of the app, and for each language I get two, so I can basically deploy both combinations on my system, and this is the way how I can deal with switching the languages but keeping the version of the application, like that's how we can do it. It switches the binary, but the application version stays the same. And I know this is a little bit confusing, but you can also look at it from the other side, so you can say that I have two versions of applications that are compatible, both with two languages. So that's basically stream expansion. And then, I've already mentioned this, but no parallel installation, so that's the same picture we saw. I can only install one stream of language onto a given system. And that was basically the basics of modularity, like really high level. And now I have some examples. I have three examples of packages that we can look if modularity can help or not. So, because modularity is still in progress, like a lot of things have been already completed, but not everything has been done. So I'll be looking if it helps right now, and if it helps by design, which means like when all the features are completed. So the first one is DWM. Anyone knows DWM, by the way? Cool. It's a window manager. It's a package that nothing depends on. So it's just an application, and we can see if it modularizes, right? The answer is yes. It does by design. It does right now, because you can just put it in the envelope, build it, even in multiple versions, and it's available if it runs out. I think we have four streams, four versions available. You can install it, consume it by the same way you did before. This is the most simple example. Okay, Node.js. It's a language. It's an interpretive language. There are also multiple versions, but some applications might require it at build time or run time. And I have the same question if it will work fine. Okay, the answer is current state almost, and by design, yes. Why I say almost? So if something requires Node.js at build time, which is not a module, that's a problem right now. But by the module design, if you have a Node.js, and if you have a default stream of Node.js, I don't think I've mentioned default streams. Who knows about default streams? Okay, almost. Cool. So if you have a module stream as a default stream, it behaves as a normal package, so you shouldn't see a difference. But there's a difference now in the build route. It's not visible, so that's why I'm saying it's almost. How we got around, how we basically work around this, that we built also Node.js and standalone packages. Stephen did that. So that works. So there are still some things that need to be coming. And the last example, I couldn't think about anything specific, but it's a library that changes really rapidly. And application need to adapt, right? Do it. And they don't do it at the same time. So you will need multiple versions of the library on the system at the same time. So, again. Oh, do you have an example? Look at two. Look at two. Which is the one that caused a whole lot of problems in your library recently. Okay, so look into an ICU. Two examples of this. And the answer is no and no. Mochilati doesn't really deal with parallel installation, but there are existing mechanisms that we can still use. Compat packages, for example. It doesn't make sense to put them in strings because you can install in parallel. But, yeah. So this is something that Mochilati doesn't address, but it's been addressed way before, and we don't have to solve it again. If that makes sense. Can you explain on that? I can. Yeah. So, who heard about Compat packages? That might be a good question to ask. Alright, just a few people. Alright, sorry about that. So, in Fedora, or in any app in distribution, how it works in an app in packages and each app being named can be present only once on your system. And if you have multiple versions and you do an update, that's not true.  No, that's not true. If you are speaking about RTM, then you can have multiple. Okay, so both Fedora works. There's general practice, yes. The package manager is something different. So, now we are talking about the... Okay, so technically, with DNF, with Fedora, how it's done now in the most common sense, we get one package at the same time. There are special cases, but there are very special cases. It's more importantly, it doesn't actually matter how the RTMs are suited or anything else. You can only have one copy of the same library that the rest of the system is aware of because it does dynamically look up all the libraries on the system. So, if you don't change the names of them, it gets confused. Yeah, so, yeah, like, if you have a file on your system, it can be just that one's in the path, right? If it doesn't include the version. So, but they have libraries that need to be there in multiple versions. So, what happens? So, you can rename the file. So, it's a different file name, so it exists at the same time. But you also need to rename the package. So, what people do, they would either put the version into the package name and maybe get actually word compact as the compatibility. And there are ways how to deal with this, but you need to basically change the name of the package and change them over the files. So, that's how you can install multiple versions next to each other. And this is something that modulality doesn't address because modulality deals with alternatives, basically. So, if I show the slide that we have there, I can choose language one or language two and I want them to behave the same. I want to have the same executable, for example, on the system. I just want to choose the version. I don't want to change the packages in a way that they will install somewhere else. Like, for example, with software collections or other mechanisms that can mangle that, right? So, whenever I don't want to change the package and want to have multiple alternatives, modulality could be the good solution, but when I need other hacks, it basically doesn't help if that makes sense. Okay, so that's an idea if we should introduce the concept of compact modules. I don't think that that really makes sense. It's a perfectly reasonable thing to include compact packages within a module stream, but I think you really only need to have a layer. I think moving that to a module layer is... But assuming that I have pair of libraries which are actually coupled to each other... This is a module stream. But I want the same use case, like to install two versions of this library on the system at the same time, but each of those libraries is actually combined with another package. So I have a group of packages which work together, and I want you to be installed at the same time. Then you come to compact modules. Again, I still think that you can implement that on the RPM side where each module will carry... Module A will carry dependency A dot SO dot 1, and module B will carry dependency A dot SO dot 2. So what I think is going on here is that when I have modules, I have only one package language one, but they can have multiple packages in them, and what modules can also represent application language runtime, and they can help you with installation as well, like if you have multiple packages, but from an application you can even have multiple ways how to install the application, like a minimal installation or additional features or a database server client. So you can basically group multiple packages in one module and use it as an envelope and you can go to the application, and that's basically what you want to do. But you want to have these two versions at the same time, right? You want to have the envelope feature, but you want the parallel installation. So for that, we can do something like this, and we're already doing it with Python, for example, which is a little bit of an edge case, but basically we have Python modules that are called Python version, like Python 3.6, Python 3.7, and because there are different module names that contain RPM with different RPM names, that contain file with different file names, but they don't collide. So you can basically do that. So this is like a compact module. I don't want to say that because that might stick. But yeah, you can basically engineer that. The process is a difference from the top level of module names and the entire set of packages which are in code. And like two sets of files. Exactly. So it's a similar concept to RPMs. Like whatever is the name, so you can have one app in the name on the system, one module name on the system. But yeah, if you make sure that there's no collisions, you can definitely do that. What is the advantage of having a Python like this and doing like the old, just parallel install, like having three Python 2.7 and Python 3.6? So actually, probably this is that with Python. Just as a point, because we actually do have modules that are module names, Python 2.6 and Python 2.7, and then Python 2.6 and Python 3.7, which are parallel install and modules. Yeah, the stream. This is quite what you've been doing in the stream for a committee. Python is one of the very special cases. It's a module for more critical reasons than it is for technical ones. But it is still parallel install. It's kind of a word around it. Python was a very odd case that I kind of broke the assumptions, so we figured out a hack around the board. There might be user benefits and package benefits in packaging something, I guess the ratings were wonderful, but even the example I had like that which was just one stream, you can learn from the from a package perspective, is that you can, instead of building all the packages individually, something individual built, every single package for every single for the release, you can submit the module just once. Just the module built, and we have a system that will always have builds for you, and we even have a way out to describe build for example. So like it might be easier for you to describe your application this way than having it just rebuild by one command. And we even have some like a lot of things in there that if you publish one package, you can only build the one package, and things like this. They're not super advanced, but like basic stuff you can do. So that's like the package advantage. If you're interested about it, you can use that. The user benefits are if the application is for example more complex, and as I am, like basic packages, and you don't want people, you don't want people to figure out like what the individual packages are. Like for example, I like the database example. If you have a database with multiple packages, and you can have some sort of row files, installation row files, you can install database as a server, or as a client, and it will be the right thing just for it. Pretty installable. So like, that's what the user experience is like. And then, from the packaging perspective as well, like what I talked about with the stream expansion, like this. If it's a language, less people stream expand on that. They can build modules on other modules. So that's way easier for them to manage. So like, mostly the orchestrating part for the builds and the user experience. Back to my slide deck, I just wanted to basically walk through these examples and make sure that like everyone is kind of on the same page. And the way, I don't want to say fires, maybe they're the fires, in paragraph with like misunderstanding how to use modules and some people that maybe trying to modularize this example, which, and then saying like, modularity is broken, which is not. It's just, having been architected for this. So, like if you have any questions, problems, or maybe topics to discuss, then we can all learn and maybe take notes and make sure that the documentation is right, or that would do things, that everything is just like, useful also to explain that we did, this was not just, that we didn't design it that way, so we explicitly chose that that was not a problem we wanted to solve. That's a good point, yeah. Yeah, that was, this is, yeah, this is very designed, because we don't want to re-implement things. If your goal is, we only want to implement something. We don't want to implement things that were not possible easily before, right? But for our installation, the existing ways, like the combat packages, or containers, or other ways how we can achieve that, we don't want to make it without making that continuous or something, right? We just want to make it easy to pick the alternatives, which was, which was the most designed use case for like an enterprise world, where one application money, one user space, and you don't need multiple questions in there. Okay. Some of this, some of the lessons learned from software collections, what red had been relevant in software collections, it pulled the users over time, and to find out how they were using it. And they really liked the concept of being able to install, you know, having available a variety of different versions of things to install, to install different monitors, different pipe on, etc. But they really didn't like the way SCLs forced them to think, to install stuff in alternate locations, they had to rewrite their software to find the SCL locations. So, and what it turns out is that they were almost never using the parallel installable feature of SCL anyway. They were generally creating containers or VM hosts that had picked one and just used it. They weren't using the two or three versions in those cases. So, when we started to design modularity, we expressly took that requirement out of it, which simplified a great many things, because in that modularity, you can just, similar to the old alternatives, we just slapped things into their standard location and any existing software that you built on top of that doesn't need to be modular. So, that was a very conscious choice, not to support parallel installations in that direction immediately. Before I get to your question, which I will, immediately, I see like some people look like, this is not like super entertaining talk, and to be a discussion. And if you just came to learn about modularity, and you want to leave, I won't be offended. But if you want to contribute to the discussion, let's do that. That's fine. By Steven. I just want to hold you by force if it's interesting for you, if you just like want to learn. We have other sessions, like right after this one will be a session by Melanie, who's right there, who will teach you how to build modules, and we'll have one more, I think, tomorrow was Sunday, it's like a two and a half hour brainstorm for the discussion that will be actually actually solving problems. This one is aimed for larger audiences to learn to figure out things, but later though we much more focused group that will actually implement fixes. I just want to shift it all because my point of view with the use cases here is to express that we are all valid and reasonable, and it sounds like we solved the problem which we chose to solve not just all the problems in the world, but my concern with modularity lies between the concept of API packages and non-API packages of a module. So I think this is the root of our problems in modularity right now because I don't know if we can describe what this means yet. So in a module we can use many packages, and you can choose which packages you consider to be your public interface of the module the things which you provide by this module and which packages you just use as a part of this model but only to build this module to make it work. So you don't expect users to use the non-API packages from your model in any other way only just the model should do that. Basically you don't support any other packages. I think there's a little misunderstanding about API and I can sum it up. So yeah if you have a module with multiple packages and the module has a stream and I have for example the language one, language two and if you choose language one and you do updates you will get the latest version one but you won't switch to the version two this is for compatibility reasons and the compatibility is defined somehow and if for some reason there are multiple packages like language one and something that the language one uses we can express that the compatibility is only in the language one package. So the other one can get changed maybe even randomly and you shouldn't expect it to not to change because we define the guarantee in the language package so that's the API she was okay so even like we can okay so so the other the other aspect of the API field is expressly to describe to your user community that we only you know we only all these other components that are part of it are supported insofar as they implement that insofar insofar as they support this package if you have other problems either I can or won't maintain for that because I don't have that expertise you know I pulled this in because it's a tendency and nobody else was maintaining it in Fedora so I'm going to say I'm putting in this in this module stream it's just for my module if it needs to be used from other for more than one module that at that point those two the two module often needs to describe it to decide where they're going to put it are they going to maintain fully and move it into Fedora or are they going to put it into a special module stream so that it can stay it can remain limited in scope that is a problem that needs to be sorted out between the module authors and it is a known issue this is particularly difficult it is a niche because from my understanding this API non-API difference only is stored in like in module metadata and when you use modules you basically don't see it in any way from how you operate your packages you don't need to know what this package is you do you see DNF info I mean just like I mean sure you have to go look for it a bit but the information of what RPMs are part of the API is available to consumers so even using DNF info on a package it marks that there's a non-API non-API transformer DNF module you have to look at the module itself these packages are API if I look into that I think she's right I think it doesn't expressly say which packages you have in the solving system that aren't API that issue this module which is probably a USN we should fix yeah yeah I mean although in a sense you don't care but you want to know the use case for example I have a couple of modules installed on my system and now I start to work on my other project I'm doing my personal application with some dependencies and so because these non-API packages are put in the same name space as any other packages I don't get any alerts that I'm using a non-API package for my work I just didn't notice it it's just available in my system and I implicitly start to use it and no one tells me learn about it that this is a problem that I need to go to my tenure that I need to figure out that we need to take this package to the API level or to another module or to my system because otherwise it's just implicitly available and I use it as implicitly available so basically what you're describing is exactly the problem of like rail optional right is that you know we've had this we probably from a US perspective we probably should say that these things are you know less supported whatever that means let's look at the rail in this this is no I'm saying this I don't want to use it it's a metaphor that is the rail option is a 100% wide optional kept getting used and everyone thought it was supported because it's the exact scenario it's the same exact problem but if you've been on Matu Miller's talk in the morning he was talking about people someone they don't want to marry him for everyone and this is basically it like without modularity that was a problem with modularity that is still a problem it's a different implementation but it's so we there's at least a field that you can define like these packages and you're right I don't think we are going to have on this one sale I was thinking maybe we don't need different names but the other thing about the other thing about this is that it's mostly only a problem in default streams yes for non-false for not you know if it's in a non-false stream it just doesn't appear unless you but if you can solve it though anyway if I enable this stream a non-defalse stream I also get my names case of packages with the package and they didn't know that it's a non-packageation reliant so I don't have a different stream with very reliable packages and non-reliable so I mean we have a bit of size modules too right and your size is probably kind of using some library out of copper that you know you thought was all coming from mainland fedora right so we have this problem kind of across the board yeah but with copper I think I do review them in mock environment we know that my list is installed and I get the point but like I want to install something but with modules I get it installed only with default but I get it installed because the part of the module but I just don't know but it's not yeah it's copper so then it's like it's on a library yeah but the training is the same or both the same program for software collections because once you enable software collection you enable all the libraries and you don't know what is the support level for the libraries the system there's no difference but you enable everything from the collection But there probably are U.S. things that we can do because we do have that metadata that we can use in some of the collections that are available, we probably could have a DNF that we say, hey, you know, at the bottom of its transaction, yes, you know, the following packages, which are limited general orders, they're not supported for general purposes. But the second aspect of the same problem is that we kind of don't read the level of the internship in Fedora, like the Java packages started telling us, like, we say that this package is maintained as a part of the default stream, but it's actually, this means this package is not maintained. If it's a non-impact package for the default stream, that means this means we have an entity supporting Fedora from this package, yes, so we should... I think there's a good strong argument that default streams may only carry API packages. And so that if you absolutely don't want to maintain it, you may not be a default stream, you may be a non-impact package. So the default stream cannot expose or contain non-impact packages. Can you be like a binary package? I mean, we are going to have some build-up stuff that you can mail in, you know, pull things in just a little bit. No, don't install. I think this could be a good, actually, solution for the main problem we have right now. But also, we need to add this to our communication that, like, yeah, you can't call yourself a maintainer of something in Fedora, but if you maintain it in only non-API way, it's like it's not a full maintainer, so it's something different. And we need to differentiate the status of maintainers, because if you maintain your proper package and if you're a maintainer, then the API package would use for something. It's a lot different. It's a different level of commitment. So I should take some notes on that, that exact concept that Matthews talked about earlier. I think one of the things we might want to do is create a big, fast account that is essentially semi-maintained. Well, that is the main society. Maybe creating one module maintainer is a status that's also a little... Yeah, exactly how to do it, but I think we probably want to encapsulate in the actual database that these are not full... That we know that the person who's doing the builds is not a real maintainer. Which is happening, it might be happening now with packages, but this will be much more transparent. I'm also thinking of our message to new contributors where we need to tell them that we're actually looking for maintainer of a package, even though it's existing in our model of repo, we're actually looking for a proper maintainer of a package. And if you have these per cycles, we need to advertise this possibility to take his name to the proper figure repository because we need to... So this is a really good discussion, and I think we're now solving a problem in a very good way. So if you could please take a note to open the description. And maybe if you want to come to the ball to maybe discuss it twice deeper. That would be great. And yeah, that's definitely... Like, we have some of the data in there, but exposing it definitely. And the policy proposal for not including learning the package in the building is also something that I see as well. And yeah, I don't want to shut this down, but I also would agree... Sure, sure. ...with space, and then we can... So you just wanted to know the thing that we need to tell this information somewhere. I just... Oh. Right. Yeah? So I mean, I don't think that's really a serious problem, but I mean, it's a very automatic dependency, especially on the app end, it's a little bit of a guarantee, because I think it would... Yeah. ...such issue when the module... dependency... Pardon? ...exploited an object, somehow interfere with the normal app end approach, definitely. So if there was automatic dependency, the app end dependency was the module? So it would be... Or maybe... ...some kind of next space. I think what you want to say, I want to give you a little bit of help. How module works? If you, for example, enable this module, I want to install the language to package. It happens in two stages. So, like, all of the packages, let's say, are in one repo, okay? The package one, language one, language two. So first step is that you enable the language stream to module. So, what happens? You have a pool of packages, all the normal packages, you start with those, and then you take all the packages from the enabled modules, and basically put them on top of it, you might replace some packages from the module. And then you have a limited set. So you only have limited set of this package one, language two, and nothing else in this case. And then a standard package transaction happens. So this is... It looks... It works somehow like repository. So, like, the modules basically leaves the content set that you do with dependency resolution and then with dependency resolution. So that's how we work for it. Does it help with the question? It's like... It's like... It just tries to... Oh. We can't do that. Yeah, because we can't do that. As I was just saying, the question was... I'm not sure it's right. It's an impediment. So I was just saying that the question was... Is there a meaning to that in the case of this short? Because I think what's been... the things from the moderated module, where it's been closed into works, not from the non-mobiliarity point of view, where we experienced that in time, where the non-modular... Yeah. ...the non-modular set of packages that is the non-mobiliar system. But... Yeah. So I would say that within the distribution, we should make sure that the distribution is somehow consistent or somehow... That would be the way... But the non-modular distribution is not consistent. There are plenty of packages to consider. Yeah, but it makes sure that it's broken. But exactly as Steven said, even if there are... because there are alternatives, in a sense, multiple packages provide the same file, for example, in different implementation, or whatever. So this can happen. And we should make sure that it's broken. We can just... if we install something and you can't install something else, that's completely normal. That happens with the non-modular system the same way as it can happen with the non-modular system. So, looking at this on the project level, that's one step. But then we can have third-party repos, like IBM, BeautyLover, whatever, that basically can't interfere with your system. And... I mean, you can have a repo that's just great service in the company, and there's no control about that. So it's not a new problem, but... But that updates testing. So, to give you an example of how... Sometimes, though we are... every week of the type, we have to be able to have some... I can't see that... any of that features. We have this example, that we don't want to force this library on the user that don't want the patent-enabled version. And that's... for example, we disable automatic dependency on this library. So, it's kind of the same... issue. I mean, don't want to... But that sounds to me like you're trying to second-guess the packages' decisions as well. Yeah, that's a good talk. And that's... that to me is something you should file as a bug against the package, not that I expect to be part of the launch of everything. Yeah, I think we could have taken that as our example. What does that mean? I think it's great to have a vision to take care of. I think it's a... So, the other idea I was trying to explain is that maybe there isn't a need to have... I think the Bitcoin example was interesting because with Python, you have some kind of dedicated system being carried for a given Python version. And what I think is interesting would be to have some kind of namespace linker for a given model in reality. So, I think this is solving a different problem. Yes. What should I say? Let's say there's a big dependency on robots. Right. No, I get that. But, like, as I... on the... Let me just switch this night. Like, when I said that what should I say doesn't solve all the pyrologies really, all the multiple versions probably. At this point, you want to... Like, what I think is, it feels like a big project and there are a lot of technical changes to make it happen because it's kind of complex. But the concept is very simple. It's just people may be expect more of it than it actually is. It's basically putting everything into an envelope and have alternative strings. Basically, nothing else. You don't want to... At a fundamental level, it's basically, like, enabling... enabling a real-world application effectively and then with the schematic that just says that the collaboration that was already there wins. Yeah. That's pretty much as... most basic with... much like, it's just an actual repo. And we're not influencing the dependency resolution or nothing. It's just... Yeah. Because we could have done that with repos, but then imagine that you would have so many repos on your system that you would have to manage. And also, a repo is not an application. A repo represents, like, a vendor or third party or some entity. And their software, like Fedora repo, party inclusion repo, and they have lots of applications in them. Right? So it's like, repos, within repos, that is also one comes in how to think about it. And also, if you have those dependencies, like the stream expansion, for example, like, if I won't have an application to work against these two, but for example, the stream one might not work with stream one of these. So you can describe this, you can describe it both for the user, so only the right instance can happen for the user. And you can also describe it in the build infrastructure. Like, this is all built automatically, and from the build side it's mostly, most of this image. Like, it just, like, explodes automatically, but if it knows, if you define that, for example, this language stream doesn't run in its application, it only goes stream automatically for you. So, yeah, it's basically just the same thing. And, yeah, but, no difference in resolution, innovations, or anything like that, or no, I'd be interested to say that, I'd be interested to say that. One, one time, one additional time. One additional time, but that's an implementation. So, yeah, that's a nice problem to solve, and I think that's, you will sort it the same way with and without modularization. So, yeah, it's a real problem that you can solve outside. And I don't want to, I don't want to say, like, this is my problem, just solve it somewhere else, right? I don't want to say, I'm I'm I'm I'm I'm I'm I'm I'm I'm I'm I'm I'm I'm I'm I'm I'm I'm I'm I'm I'm I'm I'm I'm I'm I'm I'm I'm I'm I'm I'm I'm I'm I'm I'm I'm I'm I'm I'm I'm I'm I'm I'm I'm So maybe he's there, we're going to expect it to be supported with federal authority and I think that's the best way how you can tell. So if there is, for example, no JS. There is intent to be able to do that down the road but we had, we had a bit of a clashing with that infrastructure because they were taking down sources that we were interested in, that the line amount to be able to report that information. So we haven't been asked how to get that information with storage properly. So for the time being, we really only work with the release standards. Can I say it wasn't by design. We should be able to sort of tell about your idea or not. For all of it, it's one of the good news, I guess, about that then you can have a different super project from prior actually. What was the current policy on this? Which support side was one of the, do we have restrictions now? For defaults? For defaults. So what, just to make people aware. If you have built and released it on a Fedora release, it must be supported to the end of that release. Can you kind of have anything shorter on that? Realistically, you know, if you stop stripping updates, it's gone. But a user can reasonably expect to have you fix it because it's still a support release. And the second plan for Rally? No, Rally doesn't have a complicated policy. And originally, Rally, I thought it was originally planned it would be super simple, but it's not. So there is a web page in the customer portal with a list of when each thing is, what is lifetime is. So go look at that before making assumptions. But yeah, having independent life cycles for the modules, like independent from the release, that was one of the goals. They go to implement it somehow, yeah. So it's always the whole release, and maybe other ones.  But then you won't necessarily have it for the next release. You can look at the next release if it's there, if it's not there, that's the best way for you to find it right now. Do you have a question? Well, at least on the plus side, I'm trying to do a distribution upgrade between them and stop you as well. That's true, yeah. If you try to, you know, if I system upgrade from 30 to 31, during that resolution, you say, oh, the node.js quality is no longer available. So you have to decide if it's going to be standardized if you're working on it. We basically do the same thing to decide, like, if that's what works, right, if the package wouldn't upgrade, it would basically happen for you, at least now you know that it's going to happen. It doesn't happen silently, right? It's the key. We can also choose to now start to maintain if you want. All right? Sure. Yes. We're trying to, basically, it's one of those things where you don't know what you don't know. So, you know, we have guidelines. Like, there is docs there. It's just, we didn't know what things were missing until we ran into the problems to go right about. Right, yeah. It's sort of a binary. But, yeah, this is exactly what, that was supposed to be the goal of this session, like to collect confusion and document maybe or answer them. And if you don't see that or if I describe it badly or something, just you know that for me, I don't think so. We'll write it again. Whether it's good or bad. Please. Hi. Remember, there was one other question which may feed into this question is the pattern of creating modules per minor version, basically. Is it a good or bad practice? What's the dependence on the package? The purpose of the stream is to provide updates that remain to their main pattern. If you have a project that, you know, on each minor release, like, say, V8 who changes its AVI, that needs to be a step up the stream. If you have a project like Node.js which only changes its AVI on a major release, then that's just right. And it's really good and it's well-deserved for each person. Even in the case of some of the AVI stuff, we had to talk for a long while about the fact that the CS, the dog tag that's built on, sometimes changes AVI in minor releases and sometimes doesn't. So what we redefined that is, you know, 10.6 means 10.6 and forward until it's no longer compatible. So 10.8 might be a new stream because 10.6 and 10.7 were the same, but they didn't. That was complicated and that was mostly because they're terrible version. Like PHP. Right, like that. You can basically decide if you create the Python 3 stream or Python 3.7 stream or Python 3.7.1 stream. How much do people care? All the upstream, basically, how do they drag? As Stephen says, you can have 3.5, 3.6, 3.7, so you can create another stream and they don't need to be... Yeah, use the best gentleman or your knowledge to think that you're packaging and I think that's the best advice for packages that don't have any kind of consistent consistency whatsoever and just acknowledge that it's not going to get that in the which is just telling your users we can't guarantee this is going to be compatible. The streamers don't need to represent versions. We call them streams and versions for this reason because they have some kind of stream updates that make sense and you can say these are compatible or these make sense in this way so you can define streams as you need to. Excuse me, isn't there DWM dev or whatever? There's one version of DWM then. DWM has like four streams, three versions and the one is latest which is like role-playing. I wonder if we need to add some limitations like on the policy world so please don't create models where we did commit or something. If we have to get that fine detail, we will but I'd like to assume that most of the people who are active for Fedora have at least been through DealerGuarding. Like we can define all the rules in advance or maybe let something break and then fix it later and also that goes to discussion like Fedora is not supposed to be broken but it's supposed to be doing innovations sometimes something breaks and we fix it quick enough that's good. I would also like to point out yet again that the guidelines and rules and all that stuff around RPM could not spring wholly from the mind of God at one point and then magically we were correct right? It took many, many years and many, many revisions and many people in great efficacy to make what we have today module suffer some of that same stuff we've learned some from what we know about our camps and how our camps work the problem space is actually smaller so I think we can do a better job at the outset we need people to make comments and recognize that we didn't think of everything up front and so we need to document it if we see stuff. I think we're running out of time. Thanks for coming and if you want to have a packaging stay here if you want to figure out how to fix some things modularity that's the ball I don't do I think it's Sunday. So it's in the schedule