If you want to pump your body and expand your mind, there's only one place to go. Mind pump with your hosts, Sal DiStefano, Adam Schaefer, and Justin Andrews. In this episode of Mind Pump, our boy stops by. You know what? Here's one of my favorite things about podcasting. We get to meet other podcast hosts. For the most part, I've liked them all. I don't think I haven't. There's only one that I think was a douchebag. We won't mention his name. But everybody else I've really liked. Some of them we've become really good friends with. Totally. Josh Trent from Wellness Force, the Wellness Force podcast. He's definitely one of our boys now. Like I love the guy. He's got a great approach to fitness, a great understanding of fitness. He's got a great story. He's a great podcaster. He's very talented in that particular spirit. He's easy to talk to. He's one of those guys that you could just get into conversation with pretty seriously. He's very growth-minded like us. And he has a similar history. We all grew up in 24-hour fitness. It was so interesting. It's a great time talking to him because we have all kinds of stories that we can share. And this is one of those guys who we all remain in contact with and talk to outside of the podcast. So this is someone I would consider a friend of ours too, in addition to being another podcast host. And we'll be with him up in Ta- or he'll be with us up in Tahoe coming up. So good guy. If you're a Mind Pump listener and you're looking for, and you want even more content on fitness, on fitness tech, on that kind of information, go over to WellnessForce on iTunes and give it a listen, subscribe. It's a great podcast. And they're doing pretty well, but it's up and coming. I think they're going to continue to do even better. Yeah, he's definitely looking to grow. They are definitely making moves. And I love just like his perspective of fitness and how he's very much involved in CES. So if people out there know about CES, the Consumer Electronic, whatever the S is for, but basically, I was good anyway. So yeah, that basically, he runs a panel there and everything and includes up-to-date information about what big companies are doing to try and kind of get into our fitness space and how we can navigate with that stuff. Smart dude, very cool. The website is wellnessforce.com. Of course, the podcast is WellnessForce. Also this- It must be Summit. Also this month, if you enroll in any maps program, so whether you do maps anabolic, which is our foundational program, or maps performance, which is our athletic-based program, or maps aesthetic, which is our more bodybuilding or bikini-type program, or maps anywhere, which is our equipment-free maps program, enroll in any of those, will give you Maps Prime for free.  So it's not a warm-up, it's a priming session, takes about 10 minutes, and it really maximizes the effect of any workout or any athletic endeavor that you do. You'll get that for free, even if you enroll in the bundle. However, if you enroll in the super bundle, which is one years with the exercise program, which includes most of our programs, which also includes Maps Prime, we will give you Maps Prime Pro for free, which is our largest investment program for a reason. It's correctional, it's breakthrough, the movements you find in Prime Pro you won't find, it'll be very hard to find anywhere else. So if you get the super bundle, then we'll give you Prime Pro for free. The place to find it all is mindpumpmedia.com. So without any further ado, here we are talking to our buddy, Josh Tramp. So I got a great story for you. Yeah. Josh, so Justin was actually hired by Adam a long time ago, worked with Adam for a long time at 24 Hour Fitness. Great, great friends. Just meets me before we started Mindpump, and we had to do this game where we had to answer very honestly. I could give an honest answer. I love how you're setting the table right now. You couldn't lie. What? We filmed it, it's on YouTube. And the question was, who is the best? Oh, dude, come on. Who's the best salesperson? Wow. And so Justin was in this dilemma. Like, Adam's like kind of my mentor early on. Like, you know, I don't want to, but, but Sal. I knew this moment would never. But Sal's like, he's like the sales Jesus. Like, what do I do? Sales Jesus? But the thing about Justin is- Do not use his name in vain. The thing about Justin is- For your own benefit. Is Justin has so much integrity, they had to tell the truth. And so he told everybody it was me. And to date, till this day, this was a long time ago, it was months ago. You know what I tried to tell him? What I tried to tell him, Josh, is that I had to tell him what he needed to hear. You know, at that moment in time. Yeah. Like, Sal, he looked like this lost puppy.  Yeah, so like, I just, I felt the need to give that one to him. And meanwhile, challenge Adam to- Right.  He was coasting. Right. As the top leader. I feel like in the group. I feel like you just insulted Adam even more. Yeah. No, no. I don't know. That's as good as I got, guys. Stop coasting, Adam. How was the sales projection? How was this scaled?  Was it a membership? What was it? Oh, no, no, no, no, no. If we just go into metrics. No, we don't want to do that. For sure we don't. It's not just like trophies. Yeah. The best is, one of these days, I hope we all have an opportunity to go into a gym and maybe like those, what's that show at the restaurant? Bar rescue. Bar rescue, something like that. Rescue, rescue gym. Yeah, like I want to do a rescue gym. I want to do that for a gym. Where we walk into a gym and make it happen, but then double their profits with two things. Yeah, but then it'll turn into a competition between me, Adam and Justin because that's just what's going to happen. Josh, this is a silent ninja. It'll be so fun. You were there for quite some time. How many years were you there? 2005 to 2010. Oh, so you put five years there, man. You were there for a good hot minute there. You were actually there longer than I was. We were there at the same time. So you know it's a trip. It's almost certain that you and I have been to conventions at the same time before. Because I've been down to several LA conventions when Madri Johnson came out and spoke and did all that stuff down in LA area. I know I've been down there for a convention in San Diego before when we had the girl who, what's her name? The blonde that's a softball pitcher. Missy, someone? Missy Elliott? Missy Elliott.  That couldn't be further from the blonde girl who throws a softball. Here's some indifference yet to, what's that? No, didn't we have that one girl? Oh, see that was before you guys might have started. What's her name? She was Baywatch. She was with 24 Hour. Pamela Anderson. She was not. She was 25 Hour Fitness's first big spokesperson. You didn't know this? Where did you hear that? She was 24 Hour Fitness's spokesperson before, I think it was before 2001. The tennis player came into NASM like later and then 24 Hour Fitness. Agassi? Agassi, yeah. The Agassi sports. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Agassi was, Agassi, Magic Johnson. See, that was later on. That was later on. Yeah, no, I know that was later on. He's 2005, that's why I'm dropping stuff like that. That's not, I was there from 2001 all the way to 2010. So I was there for nine years and I was there and then South. That's a lot of balloons that close out. That's a lot of balloons. Oh, did you see, you wanna see how fast? So we had an event here. I bet I could beat anybody at 100 balloons. Who could put 100 balloons up a faster? We had an event here. Sounded them all by breath. And me and Adam were like, we'll do the balloons and it was like so weird. It was so reminiscent. Funny you brought that up. We just did this event here and we decided to put all these black and yellow balloons in here. And it was like riding a bike. I hadn't done that in so long. But we're just like, we had this. There were like little kids like, yeah. South started making weird animals with it. Yeah, no, it was pretty funny. Yeah, it was cool.  But yeah, I'm sure you've done that. Oh, close out. Yeah, I don't remember having a balloon tying contest. But I just remember like, get as much sold as you can, including those boxes of cookies, right? So I definitely remember that.  Oh, the protein cookies, didn't we have those? Now in your area, do you remember, do you remember guys that were just stood out as far as in sales? And so was there a guy down in Southern California that was known for sales? Yeah, you know what? Kusha Karvande, who actually, I think he had a podcast for a while and now he has extra scribe. So they do like blood occlusion training and all this cool stuff. And I remember like, he would always be like number three and I'd be five for the monthly reports. And so one day we met each other and we both knew who we were. It was almost like Clint Eastwood, like, ooh. Yeah. Just like this. You sold 12 grand. I've seen your name, man. Yeah, so. But for me, it was more like, how do I transition out of this as quickly as possible once it started to get to that point? Because once it started to get to that point, I was like, I was done. You know what I mean? Like I wanted something else. How long did you, because I stayed in for quite some time knowing that I was done. I was probably there three more years after I knew I needed to leave because I was comfortable. There's nothing worse than that by the way.  Yes and no. You know why it was hard for me to leave? It was hard for me to leave because, one, I was making good money. Two, I really loved fitness. I was very passionate about fitness. I love people. It was a fun environment. I had built an incredible team around me that I really didn't to be truthful. I didn't have to work very much. I came in the gym whenever I felt like it. I took two hour lunches. I went home, had something to eat, worked out on, you know, I literally had a cush job but where the company was going, I wasn't excited about. And I knew that I didn't have a future in the company. And so I knew if I wanted to continue to progress that I needed to move on, but it was a really hard thing. I was very comfortable. It was hard for me to leave and break free from that. And I stayed in that zone for about three years knowing damn well I should have moved on sooner. But then also because I liked what I was doing, I was staying there, but I was such a growth minded person that eventually I couldn't handle it anymore. Eventually. I got plucked out. I felt the same way you did for probably like two years. But then this other manager at the Wave House Athletic Club, it's the, you know, it has a roller coaster down my mission beach. So they used to have a huge gym there. They used to have a huge gym there. And so he hit Mia because he had heard about me. And so he was like, why don't you come and establish a fitness department here? And so we literally cleaned out a closet. We cleaned out a closet and like I started a team there. No shits. Yeah. So that was my transition from like 24 to actually like doing it in a real studio, real gym environment that had nothing to do with corporations. Now, what was that process like?  Was it successful? Did you... I look back on that time is so fond. I mean, like the memories that I made there, that was when I really understood what it was to be a trainer. Because the first three to four years like, and I think we talked about this last time, like I would love to give my money back to the first two years of clients.  Like, hey, stand on the voce ball, close your eyes. You see that? That's your core. I'm gonna help you with that. You're dynamically proprioceptive right now. Feel that. Oh, it was at words.  I actually, no joke, this is true now. I read Arthur Jones. You guys know what Arthur Jones is? So he was inventor of Nautilus equipment and he had done the Colorado experiment with Casey Viator and it talked about all you needed to do to signal muscle growth was to go to absolute failure one set and that was it. So the whole protocol like Mike Mentzer's heavy duty and all these different workouts were based on that particular philosophy of you just go to absolute failure one set and then you're done for that body part and then move to the next one. So I had this client that I, David was his name. I won't say his last name and this little Japanese dude, super nice guy and he wanted to build muscle. And so our training sessions were 12 minutes.   You know what, how badass of a session was that for him? A 12 minute session where he got to that point. Powered out. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You never told that story before. He progressed for a grand total of three weeks. You know what I mean? And then nothing.  Like I'm, this is groundbreaking. And I'd put him on like a hack squat and I'd load it up with like five pound weights so that I could strip one off every time he hit failure. And this poor dude, I mean, I'm surprised he didn't get into rhabdo. I'm surprised he didn't die.  Keep going. Oh, you can do it.  It was crazy. Oh my God. Yeah, but anyway. It's intense. Yeah, there you go. So that's my confession. It's such a bad trainer. That's my confession as a trainer. Oh man, his money. So you got to step me through, Josh.  What is that process like? Because it's something that we're terrible at. We don't know how to do that. Yeah, what's your name again? Yeah, Justin and I, we try to do that.  What does that look like?  I mean, how do you do that? Yeah, man, I think interviewing in person is a whole different dynamic. So when I do it, I bring an iPad and I actually got, I was watching Lewis Howes when he first started like 2011, 2012 and I was like, that's such a great idea. Just have an iPad with questions and just scroll. So that's what I do. I pick 10 really good questions. And I mean like questions that I've done my homework on like I look back and I see what did their moms relationship mean to what they do now. Oh, cool. You know what I'm saying? Like connecting the emotional dots as to why the hell they get into whatever they're into. Now that's going to take some digging. Yeah, it does. It does. And also I'll say, it depends on the guest. I'm not going to name names. Like sometimes if I just know someone and I know their work, I probably want prep for that hard, right? I'll do like a two hour prep. But somebody that I like really respect and I've never met them and I've like been following their work, that could be a day. That could be like a day.  What did you find out about Justin? He's a really romantic guy. But he's also a warrior. So he's like, he's like half heart, half sword. Wow, he got all of that out of me. That's a great compliment right there. Couldn't be more wrong. Dude, you just don't know me, Sal. So all these years, you haven't figured that out. I think people are hungry. Josh did his homework. I think people are hungry for both, though. I think people love, like what you guys do so well is you just draw it with naturally there. And I think some people also like the research aspect where it's like, well, you might miss that in this kind of an environment. Not to knock this environment because this environment feeds people too. But I think there is something to be said about that. Well, there definitely is. There's been many times where I've interviewed someone. Interview went great, right? And I loved it. People loved it. Great feedback from it.  And I'm like, God, that would've been like that after every podcast. Yeah, so I definitely can, I can appreciate that side of the prep where you're looking for these questions that you wanna make sure you get out because there's been more than a handful of times that's happened to us where, yeah, it was a great interview. Yeah, lots of people enjoyed it, loved it. Yeah, they had a great experience, but that person is the person I wanna hear talk about this one thing. And I didn't give them that chance to do that.  So I get this one. I think you just gotta know your strength. That's not necessarily our strength. Our strength is conversational. And so we kind of play to that a little bit and it's playing that zone. We're comfortable with it. We feel we're at our best at it. But the other thing you wanna consider was with podcasting. A lot of times when guests are on podcasts it's because they've written a book or because they're talking about some research or and they tend to do the circuit, right? They tend to go from podcast to podcast. And everybody answers the same or asks the same questions. It's the same interview, each podcast. And I don't know about you, but I hate that.  I can't wait to listen. And I listen to him and I'm like, fuck, that's everything I've always heard them talk about. I'd like to hear some different stuff. This is such a great point because I actually listen to shows and I pick out questions that I don't hear on purpose.  And if they send me questions, have your heads up here, a person sends you questions. Like would you ask our guests these questions? Yeah, of course. No, I won't. Oh yeah, that's the worst. You know, and I'm gonna read your book. I'm gonna highlight parts that I think you were really vulnerable in. This is what people are hungry for, man. People want the truth. Right. And they want it as much as possible because our world is filled with lies. Right. So. And more so than ever now. Right.    You know what they have now? So I just read a news article the other day where they have, there's a couple of developers that are demonstrating that you can use CGI based off of someone's picture and make a video of that person look real and make them say what you want. Yeah. So they did this with. Trump, right? Trump and Obama. Yeah.  They haven't had that the whole time. That's exactly what I'm thinking. Right. Dude, think about this. The owners' heads just break. Meanwhile, they're off on some island golfing together. Yeah. Well, dude, virtual means got this.   You just uncovered a part of the onion that I don't think anybody's ever smelled. Right. That part? I don't know. I never even thought of that being a reality. But now with technology, that's a reality. Well, and think how hard that will be to police that. Like, how do you control that? I don't know if you can. As fast as things go viral. No, I don't think you can. Because that's, I mean, if somebody leaked a video of that looked spot on to Donald Trump, sounds exactly like Donald Trump, and you got him saying something like off the wall, even crazier than anything he's already said before, how quick when you drop that on to... Maybe that's why he went so crazy. You drop that on Facebook, right? And all of a sudden it goes to a million people. Not only that, but how do you defend that? If that's you that's on TV saying that stuff, you're going to come out and say what? That's not me. It's a fake video.  Like, nobody's going to believe that. And the people who have the capability of doing that, well, it's been released now, but I guarantee you that that's existed for a little while. Okay, well, it's going to have to be Minority Report style. It's going to have to be thumbprint or, you know, retina on the eye. Maybe. To authenticate the video.  Crazy wouldn't it? Isn't it funny when... I don't know. I know, it's like, what do you do? It's funny when movies put stuff like that together, right? When you first watch it, it's like, this is so crazy, and then as time goes by, you're like, oh shit, maybe this could happen. What if there was pre-cog for you getting fat? Like you could see a year down the road and be like, okay, I'm going to adjust it now. And it was pre-cog. I can do that. I can do that. I can do that. Yeah, yeah. Once I meet someone, hang out with them for a second. I already know, right? Like you're going to be fat.  Yeah, it's pretty easy to predict. Do you have a jet pack as well? You can like fly in and see. It's one of his carnival tricks. Yeah, yeah. You're fat. And I tell them that too.  I don't actually do that. But yeah, it's very fascinating and very scary. The world that we live in, it's really a world. It's always been that way. Deceits always been around. I think it's just going to get much see- Sounds like my yang is at the darker side because we were just talking all the positive benefits of technology and then you take- But we're early in the game as far as health and fitness tech. I think like from a morality place, fuck, hasn't the media always been controlled with either a good intention or a bad one? Totally. 100%. 100%. Look up Operation Mockingbird. That's a real CIA plan to infiltrate the media, to use the media to get people to persuade them to vote particular ways or act particular ways. This is a real thing.  They believe in the flat earth. Then you say, exactly. You start wearing a tinfoil hat and all that stuff. But technology represents, I mean, tech has been around since mankind has been able to put two rocks together to develop something. It's always been technology. It's power and power can be used however you want, whether that's good or bad. It's always been that battle.  Have you read the book Irresistible yet? No. Put that on your list. But I have read Inevitable by Kevin Kelly, which is the 12 forces that are gonna power technology. That's on the list as well. But I love it, man. You have great book recommendations. Oh yeah. I know you'll enjoy it. Knowing what you're into, I think you'll dig that. That's a pretty cool book and- It's a challenge you're going on. Yeah, well just to think, and it's open in my own eyes about like, so there's a test in there that I tell you to do too, it's just, and there's an app. I gotta look it up for the show notes.  And that's not including phone calls or any of that. So it's like Facebook, Instagram, email stuff, surfing the web. And then track like, how many minutes a day do you think we spend actually doing that?   It is scary. Because I'll raise my hand and admit I check my phone all the time incessantly. Like if I'm online, I can't just stand in line and breathe, right? But then sometimes I can and I'm like, well what's the division between that? Is it my mindfulness? Okay, well how do I grow my mindfulness? And I know how to do all these things, but I believe that if we put something on the phone or tech that would remind us to just be with ourselves, like almost like a block where we give a password to a friend or I don't know, some service would pay for us to not access the device. That might be powerful too for mindfulness. Well I think that's, I think there's like apps like this, you're gonna see more and more of this coming where people are gonna realize that it is getting out of control. And you don't even realize it like, and I love talking to guys that are our age because I feel like we've had the, we were before and after. What do they call us? It's not the X generation or whatever they say that, we grew up analog and now we live digital or we were born analog group digital. So we had both. We were able to experience both worlds.  Like what does that even mean anymore? I'm 1980. So essentially I'm like one foot millennial, one foot not. No, you're not. No, we're not. No, we're not millennial. We're not? No, no, we're not. Am I just hanging on to that? Yeah, you are. No, you're not millennial. Millennials not till 89? No, it's like later 80s. It's like almost, yeah, millennials later. 20s kids. Yeah, yeah, you're 80. If you're low 80s or 70s, you're definitely considered generation X. No, no, no, it's after generation X. It's in between generation X and the one afterwards, which I can't, I think is generation Y. No, Y is the youngest right now. Y is the youngest and you have... So it goes X, us, which we were in between millennial and Y. Is that what you're saying? Yeah. Okay, but yeah, we grew up without any of that stuff. It's what's most fascinating about it is when you look at the quickness by which technology got adapted or adopted by the world. And what I mean by it is internet, social media, cell phones, and that kind of 24 hour connectiveness. It went from none to everyone so fast. Facebook just hit two billion users the other day. That's almost a third of the world population on Facebook. That's one social media platform. So in the book, they get into what is scary about this is that we only have about 10 years of tracking. We don't know what the long-term effects are this. And they do a lot of crazy comparisons to drug addiction.  So these tools, these apps were engineered to do that, to get you addicted to it. And we are definitely seeing that these, that we are, and when I really, if I have some real true perspective to detach myself from the day to day and think about, okay, what was I doing 10 years ago compared to now and this tool that I now have in my pocket that I'm always attached to, I didn't even have that 10 years ago and I had, my life was fine, you know? And I'm not somebody who's anti-technology because I love tech and I love where we're going, but I am also need to be aware of the dangers of it. Just like, I'm also somebody who's pro-drugs too. I'm like, so I think that- Pro-drugs? No, I am. I don't think- Everybody do drugs. I think that, I think it's silly how we have the dare program when we were younger and you were scared to death. Like, I think there should be more education around drugs, just like there should be more education around this and that's, it's more like this, okay, listen, there's lots of cool things about this and you can have a great time with this and it's awesome and there's lots of benefits, but then it also can become very addicting because of that and then become aware of that. So the book dives into it and it draws a lot of parallels to what we know about the behavior addiction with drugs and what they're seeing with people being addicted to these apps and games and all this stuff that we are now staring into a screen all day long.  Right. I saw a commercial like that. Really?  Of course. For like a drug hit. Yeah. Because look at the biology of our Olympic brain. It thrives off of novelty. To get like panic. Right, right.  Right. So that's the reality of where we're at. And novelty does what, right? Bright colors. Novelty stimulates dopamine. Of course. That's what drives us to seek more of it out and to get more and more novelty. What is one of the hallmarks of anxiety? Dopamine minus serotonin minus oxytocin, it's just dopamine. Just constant levels of dopamine does, is connected to higher rates of anxiety. And the fastest growing and now I believe the number one diagnosed disorder among people is anxiety. It's never been that way before. But anxiety is, it's this epidemic that no one's talking about right now. And I think- I'm talking about it. Are ya? Hell yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. I think it's 100% connected to the fact that we are never alone like we used to be. Like it's always something, even work.  And so we develop these anxious disorders. And I think the future of health is gonna rest on being able to manage a lot of that and also manage the psyche that goes along with that. And then things tend to fall in place. Dude, this is so powerful. Yeah. That's such a powerful topic. Well, you know, it's funny, I actually talked about this on a previous podcast where I speculated, I made a comment like, I would love to see a group of people who are told to have a mindfulness practice, whether that's meditation or whatever. And another group who is given a diet and then a control group. And I'd be interested to see who actually succeeds in terms of health and fat loss and stuff like that. There actually was a study that they did that with and the mindfulness group had better fasting glucose and better results in terms of nutrition because they were able to kind of dive into the root of the problem. Because I think we think the root of the problem, the poor health, is the actions that we take. So like, why am I obese? Why am I, why does someone have heart disease? Why is someone, they're eating horribly and they're not moving? Yes, those are definitely causing those issues, but what is the root behind the eating poorly? The root behind lack of activity. That's the thing that no one's looking at and that's probably why we're failing miserably at addressing those issues. Man, this is why it's thought, then feeling, then action, either healthy or unhealthy, but it's the thought and then below that's the belief, right? So it's like, hey, what is our society enforcing as far as belief? What do people believe right now? Do people believe that like things are possible or not? And that's the narrative that this social media feeds all the time. This is what's going on. This is people that are dying. This is people that are being assaulted. This is what you should be scared of. Don't eat coconut oil, look at this fire. Look what's going on in Tasmania. Ah, it's like constantly, right? So that's sparking that belief constantly. Are you familiar with the author Eckhart Tolle? Yeah. Okay, so I'm reading one of the- My voice just got deep, yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah, I like reading that sometimes. He hits me, I feel, I like it. So I'm reading his book right now in New Earth and he talks about pain body. And this is a form of your ego that thrives off of pain and drama and issues, problems, causing problems. And the collective pain body is when you have like the country of America has pain bodies dealing with the issues of slavery and some of the stuff that we've done in our past and other countries have their own pain bodies. But he talks about how our pain body, all of the forms of our ego seeks out food. It needs to be fed in order to live. And our pain body loves drama. It loves bad news.  And if you watch the news, it's 99% bad shit, 1% good stuff. And remember, we're the drivers of media. So if we consume, what we consume is what they'll produce. And when we get angry at the media for feeding that shit, it's on us. We're the ones that are consuming it. And it's all of us that are just, we thrive on all of this bad energy all the time. It's collective insanity.  How addicting is this? Gay Hendricks talks about this. We can become addicted to these stories. Like constantly, right? And they just feed our whole life path. And then of course that's reinforced by the media. So now what? What you guys are doing and what good podcasts you're doing, great podcasts you're doing. He's talking about a new narrative of what's possible instead of what's dramatic. Can we get addicted to positive news network? Is that possible? I think it is. I believe we will have that way. And I believe, but unfortunately, like what it takes for us as a society, I feel like we have to hit rock bottom first. So I think where we're heading with tech addiction is we still got a ways to go before we start seeing some really bad shit and we have enough data for over 10, 15, 20 years.  Maybe we should do this. Maybe we should do this. And then the pendulum will start to swing back the other way. And then you'll see companies, like I like to believe that we're ahead of the curve with stuff like that. We are planning for the future with where our mind pump is, our message. We knew it wasn't sexy. We knew that we weren't gonna compete with some of the companies right now with the way they market themselves. Like we can't do that. Like cause it's a total different message. So that's one of the greatest challenges that we're in right now is, how do we continue to scale this business knowing that we're not ready yet? I know we're, I mean, I think we're ready because I know this message needs to get out but are we really though as a whole? When you look at the, I mean, we talked to the collective as the collective ready. Right. Yeah, I think they are on a subconscious level. I think we all are. Don't we all know when we just like someone existential energy? We just know like, I like that person. That person's truthful.  So I think there are people that know what you're saying is true and they want it but there's a fear narrative right now that says, oh, that's not possible.  And I think this is why also a podcast is growing. People are hungry for this, right? And they want to get it everywhere they go.  They just find themselves drawn to it but they're not quite sure why, which I find very fascinating. I'll tell you what, having kids is a blessing in many different ways but one of the ways it's a blessing is it's so hard to be objective about yourself. Like it's very difficult for me to observe what happens to me when I'm too connected to social media, when I'm too addicted to it, when I'm on my phone all the time, when I'm not connecting to other people. It's very hard to be objective about that, right? It's very easy for me to observe my kids. Very easy for me to see what happens. And I'll tell you what, I have two young kids and I can clearly see it change in their personality and behavior when they're on their iPads or on their phones or watching YouTube or whatever for longer than like 40 minutes. It is clear as day. I'll take them on a vacation somewhere, we'll have no electronics and they're different children within two or three days but there's a withdrawal period that they go through. Well, when we had the same thing with TV and you know, like there's been a history of like new novel things that like kids get like super sucked into and that's totally something that we are gonna, it's gonna be a challenge going forward with like removing that because they're gonna get it in school. There's no more paper, everything is on the iPad, everything is on the phone. So it's like to not address it and pull it away from them, it's great. I think like my battle with that is to keep it out of their, it's not a necessity that they need right now. As long as possible, if they don't need it, if it's not something that they're using at school yet, let's try and get you to play and be a normal kid and get outside and be active. Here's a high thought for you. What if, what if we're wrong and that's actually the natural progression and evolution of how the future us is supposed to be and we're, those of us that are trying to be disconnected are the old barnacles and those that are on the forward thinkers are like, why we need to become more connected because I can multitask and do all these other things and become more of like one and maybe we're resisting it, maybe we're the rebellion and we shouldn't be, maybe we're supposed to be getting more connected and sucked in. Let's turn it into Darth Vader. I think we're- Think about that for a minute. I think we're- It's kind of a scary thought though. Right, think about it for a minute. Even if that's true, I don't want that to be true. It goes to the pipeline. Because I know what would happen to our morality and to our quality of life, man, it would erode like a cliff. Like how fun would life be if everything was connected to everything else and there was never any separation? You say that, but you guys see the new movie that's coming out with Steven Spielberg? No. Oh, Player One. I saw that. Oh, bro. I wanna check it out. Think of the, and you see it and just the preview made my wheels like start spinning. Like that's- That's the future. You said it's the evolution that we're resisting. It's the inevitable evolution.  And they make it sound so cool because the virtual reality world, we can do things that we can't do here. We could take risks with our lives inside this connected world. And it's so real. What you're finding deteriorates. Because of where science is, you feel like it's real, but the beauty of it is you and I can be race car, race and Lamborghinis on sides of cliffs and you push me off and then it just blows up and then I wake back up. But I felt like the experience like I was really there doing that.  Now we're going down in ultimate wormhole. Here we go. Because here we go. What is really consciousness, right? You're talking about consciousness.  So is consciousness present when you're in that simulation where you're driving and crashing? I think it's still present. I think consciousness is always present. I think if we take it to the next level, what's the ultimate progression of that? Let's say that they do come out with technology that lets you plug in and experience games and you're playing things and you're living these things out and then you can unplug and then what's the next progression of that? When that gets boring. When that gets, when you get sick and tired of that, when you want the next thrill, the next progression, the next natural progression is to plug in and forget that you're plugged in to actually think you're in real life. Which would resemble, which would resemble, Which is what we're in right now in the simulation theory. Well, which would resemble what we have thought to be or thought of and tried to fathom or put together in our minds, right? What would heaven would be like? This fantasy of every day I could do whatever I wanted to whatever level, whatever stream, with no fear, right? Like is that the most ultimate piece and are we evolving in that direction and are we just fighting it? Dude, isn't that what we're all trying to do? These are so digital. Aren't we all trying to operate every single day from just a place of love? Like you're saying? So we're all doing our very best to make this heaven on earth.  Some people not so good. So how do we become more good? How do we become great at it? I think one of the first things we need to do is become much more aware and not I stop identifying with our thoughts or what we think because that is your thoughts can fool you. They can make you believe that you're anxious when you're not. They can make you feel worse when you don't feel bad. I had a conversation with a client the other day and she was telling me about how she had a real tough day the other day because she was really craving this cookie at a party and she'd wanna eat it. And she stressed over it. I said, why are you stressing over it? I said, well, because I wanted it but I couldn't have it. And I said, well, you can have it if you want to. And she's like, well, what do you mean? I said, if you want, you can have it. You chose not to have the cookie. The creation that in your mind, the illusion that you can't have it is what's giving you that problem. What's giving you that stress? Then we went a step further and she said, well, I have this craving. I said, well, what's a craving? How is it different from hunger? And she tried to explain it to me and I said, what's wrong with feeling a craving and why are you running from that? It's really about awareness. I'm using a simple example in fitness because that's what we work in but I think when we can start understanding that we are the observer behind the thoughts, then a lot of our issues will go away. But once we become our thoughts and we become what we think and who we think we are, that's when we get a lot of these problems. Because really if you look around at the problems that plague mankind, hey, let's make it simple. Because we're all in the fitness realm, let's talk about fitness and health, okay? You're obese. You know what you need to do. Why aren't you doing it? It's very simple, right? But it's not easy. Why is that? Because we are not understanding that we're the observer behind those thoughts. We're identifying with these thoughts. And you can have all the information in the world telling you how you should eat and what you should do but if you don't understand that you're the observer behind those thoughts, it ain't gonna happen. It ain't gonna work for you. It's gonna be very short term. And so I think that, and obviously we're very esoteric with my speak now but I think until humans can get to that point, it's always gonna be a problem. We're gonna kill each other over artificial fake lines in the sand and we're gonna fight over resources when we have plenty.  Could you imagine an alien species coming down and analyzing mankind? They'd be like, why do these women have salt bags attached to their chest? What's going on there? They dig us up. This woman had them on the backside of her pelvis. What's that all about, right? They would look at us and they'd look at us and be like, wow, they're suffering from collective insanity. They did not realize that they could all just be cool. There's levels to this though. I think there's a lot of levels to this and a lot of layers. It's not, I don't think, I mean, when Sal says it, he says it so eloquently, right?  You know what I'm saying? But what I have found is every, you gotta get through those layers and just keep asking yourself why and that's for everything, right? Why do I wanna look this way? Why do I wanna feel this way? What is it? Why, why, why? And eventually you'll start to get it to the root of it, right? Because it's not what you think it is. Most people think it's like, oh, because I have this wedding in six months. That's why you wanna get in shape. No, think, why do you care about the way you look going to that wedding? Well, look at all these motivational speakers like your Tony Robbins and how quickly they can cut into a lot of people's issues where they just, you say something and then he just asks you why. Who's love did you want more?  And people just get paralyzed. Yeah, and then he just keeps going and going and going and then these people they can find that thing that is driving all of their thoughts and their focus. It's really interesting. And normally we find out that the motives are unhealthy when we really dig deep and we find out why I wanna look or feel this certain way, normally the motives are not right and that's where you need to do the work. It's not so much the exercise or the eating piece, it's the relationship with yourself. And so we talk about this all the time that it's working on the relationship with yourself, then working on the relationship with food and then you work on the relationship with exercise. And in that order, like you have to first work on your relationship with yourself. How do you view yourself and why do you view yourself that way? And then you work your way over to food because I think that's the other thing. People look at food and they go, oh, I can't have this. Like Sal was saying, that's gonna make me fat. Like no, cookies don't make people fat. That's not how that works.  Why is that? You know, and diving into that to get them to help start to look at their relation with food. When you start to connect those dots, then you can start connecting the dots of how you feel when you eat certain ways, right? So when I eat really healthy, it's amazing. I sleep better, I have more energy, my skin is better, I'm in a better mood, I feel stronger in the gym, but you can't do that until you break through these layers, right? So that's, we talk a lot about this on the show, but a lot of people I think are on the first layer and you gotta kinda get through each one before you get to this point where eventually we're intuitive eating, right? And we're intuitive training. You're doing what's best for your body because you want to do what's best for your vessel, right? Along those lines of being intuitive with your food, this kinda dawned on me a while ago and since then it's now been confirmed by other professionals in the fitness sphere who I respect greatly. And a long time ago, I examined the advice to drink tons of water from the fitness industry. We love to tell people, drink tons of water all the time, let's drink, and it's just a blanket general statement. Really what the advice supposed to come from was don't drink anything but water, but then it turned into drink lots of water and somehow that's magic. And people would ask me how much water I should drink and I dived into it and I realized that your body's thirst signals when they're accurate, when you know how to read them are very accurate. They're very, very, they will tell you when you need water. This is true for hunger and this is true for cravings, for the types of foods you should eat. And so when you throw everything off by ignoring signals, by being in an environment that's tons of electronic light all the time so you don't understand the circadian rhythm is off, by being constantly in these low moderate levels of stress, by not paying attention to signals that your body's telling you and considering them normal, like I'm always bloated, I always have gas, I always have heartburn, my skin issues are just the way I am as genetic. By the way, genetics is one of the worst things best and worst things we've ever discovered. It's great because we've learned so much about ourselves and it's horrible because it's given people a wonderful excuse for everything, right? It depends on how you look at it though. It depends on how you, there's always a duality, man. Always, right? So you look at genetics and it's a science that can transform health through knowledge but then also people can use it as an excuse to be just like their parents. That's right, well, what do you choose? Well, I just got a message literally an hour ago from someone on Instagram who, she just listened to episode I think 568 where I talk about how the connection between diet and acne and how I said you'll be hard pressed to find a dermatologist that will tell you that your food intake has anything to do with acne or skin issues. Most of them will say no, there's no connection whatsoever. This lady had had eczema since she was 10 years old and every single dermatologist and doctor she'd been to had said food has nothing to do with it. Here's these steroid creams, here's these pills and that's all you can do. She listened to our episode, did some things with her diets, for her ketogenic diet was the thing that worked. She went ketogenic, eczema gone for the first time since she was 10 years old in her entire life and again, these are signals that we're not, we're ignoring but not purposefully because we never learned how to read them. We've never learned how to read them in the first place. Once you understand and learn how to read them, the reason why intuitive eating is so easy is because then you can just listen to your body and your body evolved these systems to prevent you because I think a lot of us are in the, we have the misconception that these signals of our body is to drive us to eat as much food as possible, which is false.  We know this, we see it all the time. These are signals that we evolved with and these signals of our body will tell us when we're eating too little, when we're eating too much what we need to eat and when we need to eat. That's literally how accurate your body can be if it's in balance.  Okay, my first meal is this and these are my macros and you ain't gonna win.  People will get cravings for, look, if you have a nutrient deficiency, give yourself a magnesium or calcium deficiency and watch what you crave. It'll be interesting, you'll crave flavors that correlate to calcium and magnesium. You might not get them because now those flavors correlate to other things. Like for example, sweet doesn't necessarily mean vitamin C anymore, but it used to. It used to mean vitamin C, used to mean that there's nutrients in this food that's sweet and so I know when I'm craving these types of things, but it doesn't happen anymore. It's all over the place and our body doesn't know how to read half the signals that we send it. I can eat a food that's got a mixture of salty, sweet and fat and this hyper palatable food that never would have existed in nature. Chocolate covered pretzels. Exactly, exactly, so.  Yeah, so then the reset becomes how do we emotionally and physically reset ourselves? You could do it through a vipassana, you could do it through a training program, everyone needs a reset from time to time. Every human being. My advice is step one is fix your sleep. If you don't fix your sleep, you're gonna have a tough time handling anything else. That's number one. Quality and quantity are both important and it starts with you gotta treat your sleep like you would treat anything else in your life that's extremely important. You treat it with, you prepare for it. You have a routine. You treat it with respect. You don't just crash. A lot of people also confuse sleeping hard with sleeping well. Sometimes you sleep hard because you're so exhausted that you just pass out.  This is why people do so much hard sedatives because they just can't go to sleep otherwise. Why do so many people pound beers to go to bed? It's because their life is just completely out of whack.  So your body's gonna tell you like, hey, you're exhausted today or you're not having a good relationship today.  And a lot of parents that might be listening and you're like, well yeah, we can't take the time out, we have kids. I bet you if you looked at your life and you were honest and took a real inventory, you could partition resources if it was meaningful enough for you to do so. Oh, well you, and I know this for sure. I know you guys don't know because we've all been trainers so we've all been combination of all this in here where I'm sure it's been thousands, maybe 10,000 people that we've actually touched as far as lives. Always. Everybody that's ever sat in front of me and said, Adam, I don't have enough time to work out. I just, I can only got this much time and once I showed them how to make it a part of their life, they all say the same thing afterwards like, oh my God. It's like I have more time in the day now. It's because you become more productive. When your body is healthy and you're taking care of it. You wanna move. You become so much more efficient. Like, and it's crazy how much more efficient. It's not like a little bit. This is another thing too, we talk about this. How many people think that they feel good? Like their meter is so off because they don't know what great feels like. Feeling good for them is them continuing to feel their body was shit, always being deprived of certain nutrients. Being numb. Not exercising the body. They know how to feel good with their habits that they've been doing for 10 plus years. So in their mind, they're good. But they've never felt great.  Most people are just numb. They're just, so there's a difference between not being dead and being alive. There's a very, very big difference. One is very active and one is just, I'm not dead. There's a lot of numbing going on with people. A lot of numbing with medications. A lot of distracting because, and they don't know why. That's the thing too, if you ask them is they don't know why. They don't know why they feel the way they do. I mean, let's be honest. We live in the most plentiful time in all of human history. We have solved the major stresses and killers that we've dealt with. And yet, people are unhappy. That's gotta be, that's crazy to me. You've got someone coming up. I talk to people who are miserable and depressed who have 10 pairs of shoes and a closet for the clothes and have never known what it's like to not have food for more than a week. And they have a roof over the head, but why are they so unhappy? And they don't know why. And we need to help people figure that out. And I think that's part of becoming aware. In terms of finding the time for these things, I'll tell you what, if you were an investor with money and I told you for every $5 you gave me, I'd give you $10 back, how much of your money would you give me? All of it.  For every hour that you put into it, you will get two hours back. So for however much time you think you don't have, the reality is it will create more time for you in better productivity, better quality of life, more energy. I mean, the list goes on and on. In fact, the most successful people in the world will attribute much of their success to being good at those things. To being mindful, to being good at being consistent with exercise, we're talking about Tony Robbins. That's one of the things he talks about is his fitness regime. It's a very, very important part of his life. He has made that a life practice that feels good for him to do. He's become in love with the process. It's a goal-earning approach. You have a goal, you have to get to the goal to be happy or you be happy along the way. Being happy along the way is the only way, actually.  I mean, I just feel like a lot of people just fall into that trap of, you mentioned these people that have certain things like cookies. This becomes something that's gonna make me fat, and I'm gonna punish myself for devouring this and having that weak moment. And same thing with exercise, where I'm looking at exercises, a way to rid myself of all these evil sins that I did throughout the day. It's just this weird mentality. We wanna punish ourselves. We wanna be hard on ourselves. Instead of really just charging ourselves up and working out in a way where it's really just, it's building this energy. It's building this extra movement throughout the day that is contagious. It makes me wanna move more. Here's what we have to do if we wanna make a true impact on total health and wellness in Western societies or in the world, is it has to become a part of the culture. If it doesn't become a part of the culture, it's gonna be very, very difficult. If you go to China and you wake up at six o'clock in the morning and you go out to the parks that are out there, and this is in Communist China, by the way, remarkable that the Communist regime didn't eliminate this from people's lives, you will see thousands of people doing Tai Chi every single morning. It is a part of their culture. Many of them do it because it's part of the culture, not realizing it. You can learn a lot from that. Not. Oh my God. Imagine everybody doing that. I'm visualizing all the runners. What are the most common facial expressions of runners? They're grimacing. They're not loving running. Oh God. It's like you said, man. It's like punishing themselves. So how do we make exercise fun and enjoyable? Everyone's got their own flavor. It's making that container open so they can step in. It's gotta become a part of the culture to where, oh man, I just had a hard day of work. I can't wait to go do yoga instead of I'm gonna go get that crack open a beer or drink some more. Well, I talk about this on the show all the time that the wrong people are doing the wrong things, right? So it's always the opposite. Some of the, because I do believe there's a place for beast mode. There's a place for intensity. There's a place for pushing yourself. You went through Mark Devine's thing. There's a place for that. There's huge psychological benefits that you get from that. But it's funny. The people that gravitate towards those punishing type workouts and punishing themselves are the ones that are punishing themselves all day at work. Super high stress, super hard on themselves.  Those people don't need, those need to be meditating. And then you've got the meditating guys, you've got the yoga guys that all they do is yoga, yoga, smoke weed and chill. And they're never out of that state.   You get to go to 20X, right? Put down the green juice. Right, right. Let me show you this pull up bar. You know, it's funny, we wanna, it's something as humans we tend to do is we like gravitate to these boxes. Everybody, we wanna put ourselves in a box in a category and it's like, I identify with this group of people and so I'm going to do these things and we're not into those things and this is against what we believe in and what we say and this is the stuff that we do. And you don't venture out of that. And it's crazy because yeah, there's lots of benefits that you may see for this running or this yoga or whatever it may be but it's amazing how much the body needs these little stressors all the time. And good and bad ones, right? Sometimes it's completely meditating, floating like we did today and then other times it's going to like a mark divine thing and stressing that I think we get so comfortable in our boxes, you don't wanna venture outside of them. Yeah, and especially in immediate gratification society, delayed gratification is an art form. It's an art form that not a lot of people practice. And so how do we practice that? You could do the 20X, you could also do a vipassana, you could also be on a podcast. I mean, there's many ways to push your edge, right? So how do you guys push your edge right now? Like what's your biggest edge that you're working on in your life? Is it business? Is it, I know for Justin we talked about, I was like meditation, for me it's finding that balance. Like maybe when I heard you talk about the 20X, I am that guy that kind of punishes himself, right?  It's so true man, right? And so like meditation for me is also big. But I'm curious about all three of you, like what's the edge right now? For me right now, so for most of my life, I've not enjoyed being in nature. I've never enjoyed taking adventures where I don't know necessarily where I'm going and things aren't planned out. I have a bad sense of direction, always fear getting lost. I was never the guy that take my shoes and socks off out in the forest and feel the ground. And lately that has been the focus of what I have been trying to work on because, and I'm gonna be quite honest, the person that I started dating somebody and like what happens a lot of times when men fall in love with a girl is they do shit they don't wanna do because they like the girl, right? So she takes me on this road trip and we end up kayaking on Lake Tahoe and we're supposed to kayak to a camping ground and we got lost on Lake Tahoe in a kayak with our camping gear and ended up kayaking for something like eight or nine miles and this is totally out of my comfort zone. Like I wouldn't be caught dead in the water on a kayak in the middle of a lake. Let alone trying to find somewhere to go to then camp or whatever. And it was miserable for me but afterwards I remember feeling something different. I felt this sense of like, man, I could really do something like you know, I could really do that. Like this isn't that big of a deal. It was tough, but I did it. And then I noticed the just the rejuvenating effects of being out in the lake and having nothing else but just me and other person in nature. And so now I've started seeking that out.  I would have never done that a million, never done that a million years if you had asked me that. Why is that your edge? Yeah, 10 years ago. It's my edge now because it is really taking me to the next level. And now there's a problem with that and that is that I don't want to identify with it making me better because then I'm gonna do it like I treat other things in my life.    I'm just trying to observe. I'm trying to be aware of the benefits and just be in the moment. It really puts me in the moment. I went hiking the other day and we were at Castle Rock which is a great spot up in the Santa Cruz Mountains and there's a couple trails you can get real high and you can sit on the edge of like a cliff and you can see all of Santa Cruz Mountains. Now 10 years ago, I wouldn't have stepped 10 feet away from a cliff off of an edge or whatever. I would have been too anxious but actually sat on the edge of it and let my feet dangle off the edge of it and I just closed my eyes for I don't know, probably 10, 15 minutes and I'm getting things out of it that I never thought that I never got from pretty much anything else. So right now that's kind of the area that I'm seeking and I think that's giving me an edge. It's giving me better ideas. It's helping me work more productively not necessarily harder but more productive and I feel more connected to my children. So it's been a huge boost to pretty much everything. I think we're all kind of similar with the present message I think and I think it's because of our business, right? Like this is my first business. I turned on my Instagram and my Facebook with the intention to build a business around it. So I was not a social media guy. I didn't care to do that stuff. I've always been a active outdoor nature sports. Like I've always been that guy, right? I was always playing basketball or football or wakeboarding or snowboarding. Like I was into things like that and I never cared to sit on social media and I never cared about trying to get more friends on Facebook. Like none of that stuff mattered to me. I had my friends but when I started this business I started it with the intention of like, okay, we're gonna build this business around. At that time I didn't know what it was. It ended up pivoting over to these guys in Mind Pump but I did start my social media with the intent of turning it into this business because I had someone who I'd met at that time. Taylor, who you actually just met. He has a pretty cool story on how we met and how this all happened. And so I have watched myself over the last four years be consumed by the social media, by my phone, by the web. I was never into it like I am now. And of course I have justified it because it's my business, my livelihood now. And so it's been really easy to do that. While I've been doing that I've watched my relationships start to suffer. And it's starting to suffer from people that matter a lot to me.  So she's seen me do something that's totally not even related to social media and then watch me do that and see what a difference. So she'd probably be a great person to talk to and ask what it's been like. And I've gotten my obviously feedback from her. We communicate very well. And I know that I have a hard time being present with people that I'm with. Now that's part of why I love this podcast because it forces me to be present and we get to know each other when we're talking. But outside of here, it's really easy for me to grab my phone and start answering emails or messages on social media. Excuse me, whatever. So that has been something that I have been working on. And I've actually, I'm doing certain things with certain people in my life. So like I have like my moms and I say moms because I refer to my two best friends. Moms is like my moms too. And my own mom and then my dad and then I've got my aunt and uncle and then I've got my girl at home. And all of them I feel have suffered and they all mean a lot to me. And so there's little things that I've started to do to create habits, to make sure that I stay connected. And I never thought that I'd have to do that. Like it was, like for me to work on relationship, I'm a very outgoing guy, personable. I'm very, with all my friends, I've always been somebody you could reach out, talk to and I'm always there for everybody. But to see me start to disconnect because of the business, it's forced me to really look at my habits and my patterns and then start to put things in place to counter that. And I'll give you an example with like Katrina, something that's really changed the landscape of our relationship since this business has started. We read together, once a month, we knock a book out. And I started that at the beginning of the year. So every month we knock out a new book, we pick it together and then we listen to it on Audible. And that, if I knock a book out that requires me to put X amount of hours in. And that's how I figured that out. It's like, okay, let's set a goal that's realistic because obviously if I was trying to crank out one a week, I know I would never maintain that pace with everything I have on my plate. But I know I could knock a book out with her. Like that means we set aside a few hours a week, every week to listen to this audio book together. And what it's done has been pretty incredible. Not only are we growing and we learning together, but then it also strikes up a great dialogue. So afterwards we have these crazy and depth conversations that remind me of when I first met her six years ago. So that's just one thing that I've started to do and for me that's been weighing on me a lot is becoming more present with the people that I love and I care about because it's really easy for us to become consumed by these tools. That was so powerful because it's exactly how we started this podcast with your core lesson. And I know for me, I'm getting so many mirrors from what you just said, man, because I'm in the thrush of building my business right now and I actually, my greatest edge is scheduling fun and scheduling connection. That's my greatest edge right now. And it's so important because that's what gives me all the positive biology chemicals that my logical brain knows are important, but it's also like we go through seasons in life sometimes. And sometimes you need to build a castle. Right, right. And it is what it is, right? But then having that awareness like you have, that's really where I find myself. Now it's like, how do I build a business in a strong castle, but also not lose my emotional health and presence along the way? Like what does that look like? I tell you what. That's where I'm at. I attribute a lot of that for me to Katrina because I've relied on her to be patient with me and to be that person, to be that mirror, to give me that feedback. Because at the very beginning of this, I remember looking at her and saying like, I know I'm not gonna be the best man I can be right now because I know that I'm going to sacrifice a lot of our, just a year before we started this, her and I really didn't work for almost a year and we traveled like we traveled.  So imagine having a year like that, that was like became the norm. Like every month we are going somewhere. From summer to like a hard winter. Right, exactly. Yeah, winter is coming for sure. That's what happened and imagine what a shock that was for her to have to go through that where almost every month my man was taking me somewhere and we were spending days, sometimes weeks together in some other country or some beach or whatever. And what a awesome life that we had for about a year there. And then, okay, reality came around.  We've enjoyed it.  I started a new business and we both kind of looked at each other like, hey, we know that we're going to have to schedule time for this relationship because otherwise we'll get really focused. And so we have these check-ins that we have to do and at the beginning we didn't and we caught ourselves where we were drifting apart and we had this wake up moment of, whoa, we actually as much as we love each other as much as we enjoy each other's company because we're so hyper focused on building the castle that we got to schedule this stuff. And that to me is key. That is starting to do that where I organize those trips those times to the point where I know that she has a trip scheduled for just her and I to get away for three days next month and I don't even know where we're going, what it is. She's just made sure it's in the calendar. I can't put anything in it. And so we know that enough time has gone by that we got to make sure. Dude, that has been the most powerful thing I've ever done is like putting things in my phone, putting things in the calendar. Cause if they're there, I'll actually do them. And then I won't be a victim from my circumstance.  And I think how many people are listening can relate to this. Like they feel like maybe they're a victim to their schedule. And how does that relate to their health and wellness specifically? This is a big one. And I know it seems simple, like, oh, well duh, but do it. So if it's so simple, then execute on it. And if you're listening and you're feeling like, is it comfortable? Well, there's some truth there. That's probably because you're not there. Exactly. The other thing to consider is experiences are so much more valuable than things. So much more valuable than things. And they've actually done studies on this where they've taken people and questioned them and asked them what they remember the most about the last five years and what are the most meaningful things. And almost never is it the new TV they bought or the new car or the wardrobe. It's always that trip I went on or that class that I took or that thing that I learned over here. It's experiences. First kiss on Tinder. Sorry? First kiss on Tinder, right? Yeah. That's hilarious.  Let's be honest. That's for Justin. That's where we met, remember? That's where we all met.  That was number four. That was number four. It's take all that, take that money that you invest on things and that coffee every morning and the new pair of shoes and all that stuff and maybe the extra bedroom in the place you're renting. Take that money and spend it on experiences and watch the quality of your life improve. It's funny, every time I meet people who travel a lot, they, I don't know if it's just me. I don't know if you guys ever see this, but people who tend to travel a lot seem to have like this kind of wisdom about them. Well, there's other things that come into play there. I don't know if it's, that's the direct correlation. They're getting a lot of novelty when they travel. Yeah, they're getting a lot of novelty. You're also seeing different cultures and like, oh wow, that's totally normal over here just cause we demonize it over here. Maybe it's not such a bad thing.  Like, I mean, there's a lot that happens on that. And I think each person is different because I know that's your experience and that's your narrative that that's how you feel but I think there can be people that can, there could be tangible things that are very valuable to them like an extra room that you, I mean, stuff like that.  So like I feel the need to defend them that if somebody, somebody, I do, I like things. I do. Don't come after my errand. Well, you gotta ask.  Yeah, it's the essence of the thing that brings you. Is it really about the thing? It's not. It's really, it's what I was, okay, so literally this was yesterday. I was like half nostalgia. I was just, so after my shoe boxes start to stack up I order these clear boxes from Amazon. Wow. I organize all of them, right? So I'm going through and I'm organizing all my shoes in my spare room and I'm looking and I'm going like, what is it about this that I love someone? I was questioning myself. I always do, especially when I spent the day doing this. I'm like, I must really enjoy this if I'm like stacking and organizing my shoes by brands and things like that, right? And I'm going through and I'm looking at them like, and what it reminded me, I had this moment of being a child and I remembered how I used to sit and collect my baseball cards and I would just look at all of them and I would organize them by team and all these things like that. And it's a similar type of a feeling, right? Like the baseball cards that I bought, like, you know, was it really the baseball cards that were so important to me or is it like the essence? Like you said, the whole process of opening it, looking at it, reading the stats, the player, knowing all that stuff.  I had a 1966 Mustang. Rad. When I was 17. I had a 56 jeans. So every time I got my rod, my heart's like, oh, I love you. You guys realize you guys are nostalgia. You guys are not explaining things right now. What are you guys explaining? The essence. Experiences. Experiences, you're actually replicating it. But that's what my point of interrupting you on that was that, you know, it can be for, tangible things can be that way for somebody else.  There's nothing wrong with buying things. You can buy things and actually get similar joys. There's nothing wrong with that. Just because you have found that the traveling in kayak and wearing clothes that don't matter or something like that to you. I said experiences. Just buying the shoes and having them is not what you enjoy. It's the experience of them. And so, and that's what I said. I literally said experiences and that's the thing. Like most of the things that people buy are not experiences. I can make that statement. I can stand right behind it.  Just want to keep up with the Joneses and whatnot. It's not because of experiences. And it brings so much better quality of life when you understand that and you spend money on or you invest your money on experiences rather than things.  But I think getting to that is the key. We're both right. It's asking yourself, it's the same thing that I did in that room. Like I question, I'm always doing this to my, I'm always questioning myself and especially things that I do that are habits or whatever and I'm looking at my, is this a healthy thing? Like I'm looking at all these shoes and I'm like, is there something wrong with me? And I come to this point where it's like, it's not like I'm living beyond my means. It's not like I'm wasting them. I wear them all and I like them and I take good care of them. And it reminds me, it gives me this feeling that I had when I was a kid when I collected cars and I'm like, I'm not gonna get rid of that because maybe somebody else thinks that that's a waste of money because they could sell all those shoes and they could travel around the world with that. Like that, so that's you. Maybe you would wanna travel around the world and you have that experience. But for me, it provides an experience that's very fulfilling, right? But it's a tangible thing. No, experiences are very individual. But I mean, even circling it back to fitness, if we look at the most successful fitness facilities and centers and programs, the most successful ones are based off of experience. Absolutely. And so it really goes back to that as well. I know there's a lot of big box gyms out there that are really, really cheap, especially nowadays, you can get a membership for 15 bucks a month and have all kinds of equipment accessible to you. And the rate of success with these types of facilities is very low compared to the rate of success to smaller facilities that have that experience. Well, dude, this is why the four walls of the club are collapsing faster than anybody can realize because sources like Peloton with their virtual cycling and Rush and all these different studio experiences in your house on a massive television. They're bringing it directly to you. Competing and gamifying with everybody in different states across the United States. What?  If you're a planet fitness and you can't make loud noises and you can't actually be in a gym, yet you can get an incredible experience connected across the country. If you're a gamer and you know call of duty and then all of a sudden now you have online capability where you can talk to your buddies and you're shooting people together. So much better. But then this ties into falling in love with the process. Like working out should be joy and fun, not like misery and pain, although sometimes that's kind of fun too. Yeah. So, but tying in this like virtual component, it's such a big deal now in this world. Like this is where we are. Okay, it's here whether we like it or not. And so I think these successful clubs that are leveraging tech and that are giving people like an in-home experience or look at what Orange Theory is doing. I was just gonna ask you what you're, let's dive into that. I love talking about business like this. What do you think about businesses like Orange Theory? Obviously we know they're doing well. They're one of the fastest growing companies right now in fitness that they're up to.  Just showing it. Something ridiculous, right? So I just read an article. I think it was in Forbes talking about them and how fast they're growing. So they're exploding. But I wonder how long will that last when you're seeing other companies like you're talking about that or creating the same experience in your home for probably a lot less. Well, if you can create the essence, it's so cool, we've talked about the essence, right? If you can create the essence outside the club or outside the group fitness studio, bring that same environment to somebody competing on their own through a device, shit, maybe even like VR, right? What about a HUD headset that delivers VR or somebody's running and they're in the class even though they're physically not in the class? That's the kind of experiences I think are coming. And Vaynerchuk's been talking about this for years already. Okay, the VR component is well on its way. It's already being integrated. Facebook just has- Or augmented reality. Or augmented reality. It's all here. It's like, well, when is it gonna be here? It's like, it's already here. So I think that's where we're going. And I think when we look at orange theory and like Peloton and this transfer of power right now, the ivory towers have shown cracks for a long time, dude, in the fitness space. These big box clubs are dying a slow death and they're frenetically scrambling to try to get a full attack. Oh God, can you see them? I love watching. I not only can see them, I hear them when I go to Ursa. I understand what they're saying because like they're trying to figure it out. Like what Justin's created and this ax on, like this is the kind of training tools people need because it actually connects why the hell someone would do it in the first place and show them progress on the long term. They can connect with other people about it. That's what it's all about, man. There's no joy in running on a treadmill by yourself and making an X on your calendar at home. Right, right. Which just doesn't exist. So I think that's what they're doing well is they did a good job. And I was there for what, two years. They did a good job of building this community, right? Like they do have this experience of like cheers when you walk in, you walk in and you feel like it's home, you know? And so they're playing into that really well right now but I wonder how much longer these brick and mortars can really last. You know what else the good studios are doing is they're combining the outside club experience either data, steps, activity, whatever and they're bringing it into the club. They're gamifying. There's a company called Delta Life Fitness. Josh Cherry is their CEO and they have like 50 locations already. So they're up and coming. They just opened up in Temecula and they take outside data sets. They use NudgeCoach. They pull in data that everybody's live, their steps. They have challenges for steps and activity and sleep. And so when people come into the Delta Life facility they're competing not only in the facility but they're competing outside the facility. And then of course they're still doing these CrossFit orange theory type workouts, right? That involve like fun things and yelling and music and a guy wearing a headset that's wearing a jacket. You have to read irresistibly because this is the one, this is the, I want you to read it. I'm gonna read it man. Because we have to talk about this. Because what we're talking about right now, here's what you're not gonna like about the book. And this is what I had a hard time with.  Can I, can I reign on your parade a little bit? Go for it. So they believe that the connecting this part of it because of humans behaviors that it's going to feed the addiction and make things worse.  And I had a really hard time connecting with that part of the book because this is something I teach and I share with people. And I believe that it's the first step of awareness. I believe that these wearable tools are incredible and they've changed all of my client's lives. And I've been able to use this as an incredible tool. But then I have to be, okay, that's that this is my experience. This is, I have a total confirmation bias with this, right? So if I actually try and detach myself, read this book, absorb this information and look at it and go like, wow, could it be? Could this be dangerous? Could it be bad that we're just connecting more and more and more and more because it goes circles back around to how we started this whole conversation. And that's kind of where the book takes this is, they really kind of demonized the wearable tools. Well, statistically speaking, people who work out at home or who want to work out at home are far less successful than people that go somewhere else. The people who work out consistently at home also are ranked as highly motivated with fitness. So people who buy gym equipment and do stuff at home are the ones that are already so committed. Typically, to exercise that they just want it in their house, they can do it whenever they want. Really? You believe that's a true stat? A lot of treadmills have doilies and fake stuff. I don't know if I would believe that. That's what I'm saying. People who buy home equipment and use it are very motivated individuals. It's not- Oh, the ones that actually use it. Yeah, it's not a convenience factor. And this is where I have a problem with tech and wearables saying that they're the answer. I think they're tools, I think they're great tools. I think they're gonna provide us with great information. I don't think they're the answer because convenience is not a factor, it hasn't been a factor for a long time. People could work out at home for, I mean, home workout videos have been, you sell more home workout videos than you sell gym equipment. This is the argument the book makes. And here's the thing. I agree. You're right, so is the book, but so is the other thing. There's laws of nature duality is one of them. So you're right. But which one do we focus on? Because each one has its own merit. Like each one is correct. It just depends on where you apply the energy and if it's the fit for your personality type for you as a human being. So then on that note, then this goes, I mean, even being a guy who was tied with orange steer because of my good buddy who started them, I think it actually perpetuates a very bad relationship with exercise. I think people, and I saw this firsthand when I worked there and people become so addicted to the game part of winning, of beating the other person, scoring more points, getting more, I forget what they call them over there, splat points than this person that they're not doing what's best for their body. They're not doing what they need. They're doing what's gonna win the game. And then what it ends up doing is, and so I actually made a living off of helping people that had this really bad relationship and connection to exercise and food. And these were the type of people. It was like a fish in a barrel there. I mean, everybody, the people that I found takes away from quality, right? So like the same thing with the argument I have with CrossFit and sort of making that into a sport as far as like my workout now is a sport, they're gonna organize it in a way where I'm gonna compete and I'm gonna do like by all means necessary to beat somebody else on this whiteboard. And that's gonna be my focus for the day is to take on this challenge, but it's always a challenge instead of internalizing what this is doing to benefit my body and what kind of patterns can I establish with my movement that are gonna make me move at my ultimate function and well-being and it's gonna keep me consistent. So. Look, I said it before, I'll say it again. If it becomes a part of the culture, it will succeed. If it doesn't, it won't. If you look at, let's use Europe as an example. What does that have to do with orange theory then? No, no, no, I'm talking about technology. I'm talking about these applications of these new wearables. If it becomes a part of the culture, it will become successful. If it doesn't, then it's gonna be the next fad. And I'll give you guys some examples, okay? If you look at Europe. Oh, it's gonna be a fad. If you look at Europe and you look at their obesity rates, their obesity rates did not climb as quickly as America's. Part of the reason was they have a culture of eating that's older than ours. Now the country in Europe that did not have obesity until much later, and now we're starting to see a lot, is Italy. Italy had some of the best obesity rates, especially among children, for up until now. Their obesity rates now are skyrocketing. And it's because the culture, Italian culture, valued food so much that they would literally boycott at McDonald's when it would open up in a small town, because it'd be like that's garbage food. Now, here's the thing with activity. If you go, childhood obesity used to not exist. It used to not exist in this country. It took longer for kids to become obese than adults, because the culture of children was, and of course their diets changed very rapidly as well, but the culture was to be active. If you were a child, you were active, always. Your parents could be office workers, super inactive, sit on the couch all day long. But if you were a child, the culture was to move and be active, but that's not the case anymore. The case now is we are in a culture of inactivity and poor eating.  You can't compare it to that. We're in a new era right now, and you're taking history, and you're talking about things- I'm talking about human behavior.  It's changing before our eyes. And that's my point. That we are becoming more tech. Yeah, I know it's your point, but you can't compare what's happened in the past to what we're about to see in the next 10, 15 years. The wearable tools is not a fad, bro. It's a- It's ingrained in our- Well, my point is that the culture becomes to become active. If the culture turns into through tech to eat better, to eat the way that's better for your body, then you will see a massive positive shift in health. Well, I think that's obvious. That's an obvious statement. You're curious if it's already integrated. It's integrated now. I mean, look at Apple Watch and the attraction they've had. I think it's just the beginning of the beginning. I mean, the greatest services and products of the fitness industry space have not even been created yet. I mean, really soak that in.  It's just the tip of the iceberg here. What has the internet done for businesses? Right. Imagine if you were to capitalize on all the things you know now in 2007 for Facebook. Okay? You'd be in any place you wanna be from a media perspective because you would have seen it before it happens. And I believe we're on a ship and we all see the iceberg. Mm-hmm. Yeah. I do. It's a very fascinating topic. It's a sword. It could damage you, you know? Or you could use it. Wheel this to your benefit. Yeah, which one do you choose? Anything in the world has a good or an evil potential. Absolutely. So that's why I'm saying, I don't really know if anybody's right or wrong here. It's more like, which one do we choose to go with based on our integrity? Based on who we are, where we actually wanna go. Yeah, no matter what, I don't think you stop it because we're all free market. All of us for sure are free market guys. So none of us think that that should be policed or regulated. So I'm definitely not somebody who thinks it should be stopped. But I definitely think there should come, I mean, people should be thinking about what they're getting into, right? And I think even like what I saw. What to focus on with it, especially. Even watching what's going on. So circling back to Orange Theory. Because I had an opportunity to work there for two years because I've watched the growth of it when it had 20-something clubs to now 700 felt like overnight, but within a couple of years. And I actually don't think it's a healthy relationship with exercise. I think it does. I actually think it does more harm than good. And I know that's a lot of people that know me, that know that I was connected to that are gonna be like, ooh. There's an Orange Theory trainer right now going like, that's right.  And it's because when I, and again, this is anecdotal, right? So my only experience is seeing about 2,000 different people over the course of two years in one facility. So that's my experience. And so someone could totally debate this. But in my experience, a majority of those people that were walking through that door are the people that didn't need that. Because there's a place for that. There are people, there is some people that I think that can be an awesome tool. If you know how to use it correctly, you know how to turn it on and off, you know when you should be pushing the body that way. But what it does is it feeds into an addiction that people that don't belong there are doing. It's literally the people that are- You're getting to the group mind of it. Yes, it's- Focus on the individual. Right, it's the people that are scared to work out by themselves because they don't know, they don't know any better. It's the people that hammer themselves all day long high stress. Then they go into this high intensity group setting. And those people are the ones that need to be by themselves, talked about all their imbalances, address all their aches and pains, fix all of that, fix their relationship with themselves, fix their relationship with exercise. Then maybe they can introduce that intermittently in their life. But those are the people that are signing up for that. That's what's scary. That's what scares me. And when you see something like that growing so fast and we're praising it because it's so successful financially, see which to me is always a red flag right away.  Ask yourself, why am I in so in love and so addicted to this thing? That's because they made it so you would be addicted to it because what I saw from day one, and these guys know because I talked behind the scenes about this stuff, I stepped into it knowing it's not something that I believe in. It was somebody who is a buddy of mine starting it. And I said I would help him build a good culture inside his facility. And so I tried to implement all of my beliefs and ideologies with health and fitness into a facility trying to impact them all. And I thought we did a pretty good job. It was the number one facility for the first, the two years that I was there, I don't know what it does. So what was the difference? How did you make that culture grow in a positive mind frame? So here's the deal. And this is where I got a lot of pushback because I was doing things in the facility that you weren't supposed to do. That wasn't part of the franchise. So when everybody else would normally do these like three minute warming them up on the bike and the rower, I would have them doing dynamic warmups and I would be teaching them about flexibility. At the end, when you're supposed to do like this kind of generic cool down thing, I would be teaching them about nutrition. So I had three minutes, I'd give them a tip of the day and then I'd write stuff on the board. So I was doing stuff inside the facility to give these people more because I knew that they weren't getting enough information. All they were doing was coming for the experience that they were already addicted to when I was seeing all these embassies, these people running, got the knee hurts, my ankle hurts here, Adam, they got all this bad posture.  Right, and then they teach their trainers because it's a fast-paced class. They teach their trainers how to correct form and it's like, you can't correct somebody who has an imbalance that they've had for 30 years by coming over and just fixing their form for a second. Like you gotta teach them what's wrong with their body, what exercises they need to do to fix that and then what they need to avoid that's causing that. So if you're not, and you can't do that in a fast-paced class, right? So I tried to do my best to implement that in there and I still was not successful. And the data doesn't lie when you look at wellness programs.  The reason why maybe what you're doing was successful is because you were throwing in extra components of wellness, right? And so whether you use technology or not, like this whole person is what needs to be addressed.  I mean, occasionally that's important, right?  Like there's so many components to it. And I think we've done such an amazing job of like exploring this today. Like really diving into it, you know? And I'm thinking about in my own life, like with wellness force, what's most important to me is just sharing my lessons, sharing my journey, man. Of this intersection of like, what does it mean to be physically intelligent in my body? What does it mean to be intelligent about my emotions? And that's what I'm just so excited to continue to get better on and learn on. I mean, I feel like I'm down the path, right? But it's important for everyone listening who's like a trainer. I know a lot of trainers listen to your podcast.  You can be a green belt. Like don't feel overwhelmed by all this stuff. It doesn't have to be that way. Right, right. Appreciate it. Hey, check this out. Go to mindpumpmedia.com, enroll in 30 days of coaching. It's available for free. Tons of great fitness information covers the entire gamut of wellness and fitness topics that we talk about on Mind Pump. Also, go to YouTube, check out our channel, Mind Pump TV. Subscribe. There's a new video every single day. Finally, find us on Instagram, Mind Pump Media. My page is Mind Pump Sal. Adam's at Mind Pump, Adam. And Justin is at Mind Pump, Justin. Thank you for listening to Mind Pump. If your goal is to build and shape your body, dramatically improve your health and energy, and maximize your overall performance, check out our discounted RGB Superbundle at mindpumpmedia.com. The RGB Superbundle includes Maths Anabolic, Maths Performance, and Maths Aesthetic. Nine months of phased, expert exercise programming designed by Sal, Adam, and Justin to systematically transform the way your body looks, feels, and performs. With detailed workout blueprints and over 200 videos, the RGB Superbundle is like having Sal, Adam, and Justin as your own personal trainers, but at a fraction of the price. The RGB Superbundle has a full 30-day money-back guarantee, and you can get it now plus other valuable free resources at mindpumpmedia.com. If you enjoy this show, please share the love by leaving us a five-star rating and review on iTunes, and by introducing Mind Pump to your friends and family. We thank you for your support, and until next time, this is Mind Pump.