Good morning. Welcome to the 8 a.m. Prayer set in the heart of Kalamazoo, Michigan. We are on day three of Seek and Send, which is our prayer initiative where we are seeking to see every home and altar of worship and prayer. And today's prayer focus is wisdom. And our scripture is Proverbs 9 verse 10. It says the fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom. And the knowledge of the Holy One is understanding. In other words, wise men and wise women and wise families revere Jesus. They walk before him and live before him in reverence. And so, let's just ask the Lord that as we worship that spirit of wisdom, that spirit of reverence to the Lord would be imparted to us in greater measure. So Jesus, we love you. Jesus, we love you. And we long to be those who walk wisely in this hour. We long to be those God who fear your name. The psalmist said, blessed is the one who fears the Lord. And Nehemiah said, it is my delight to fear your name. And Lord, we want to walk in that blessing of wisdom.  So Holy Spirit, would you just come now and lift our individual eyes, the eyes of our heart, lift our corporate gaze on this beautiful man, Jesus. And I pray that you would enlarge our capacity for awe and worship and reverence this morning that we would be a little bit wiser when we walk out of this room. We love you Lord and we welcome you Holy Spirit. Lead the worship and lead the prayer meeting, anoint fingers to prophesy on instruments, anoint vocal courts to prophesy in song and melody, harmony, God that the anthems of heaven, the oracles of heaven, the choruses of the heavenly sanctuary would be released in this next hour on earth as it is in heaven. We thank you for this honor and privilege in Jesus' name. We love to praise you. We love to make much of you. And it is our declaration this morning, God, that we will be those who praise you, who reference you, who fear your name in every season of the soul God and every mile of our pilgrimage and every context we face in this journey through this fallen world. Let the high praises of God be in our mouths, over our homes. We love you Lord. Well we're going to go into a time of intercession now for our first prayer cycle and we're going to ask the Lord for that wisdom that we're focusing on in our altar boxes in Paul says in Colossians 2 that all the riches of wisdom and knowledge are hidden in Jesus so that in this second person of the Trinity there's this treasure trove of eternal wisdom and then in Proverbs 2 it says that the Lord gives wisdom and from his mouth from his word come knowledge and understanding and so there's this treasure trove the heart of God is postured to give and then he tells us in James 1 our responsibility and so if you have your Bibles let's go ahead and turn to James 1 because this is where we're going to start in our prayer cycle and I just invite you if you want to to stand as we stand in the gap on behalf of our families our homes in James 1 verse 5 it says but if any of you lacks wisdom let him ask of God who gives to all generously and without reproach and it will be given to him but he must ask in faith without any doubting for the one who doubts is like the surf of the sea driven and tossed by the wind and so Lord I thank you I thank you this morning that in you is hidden the treasures all the treasures of wisdom everything we could ever need to know want to know in any expression or context it's all in you in your eternal heart and that you give wisdom as we ask you give generously without shaming us without looking incredulously at us so father here we are in obedience to your word you said ask if we lack wisdom and so we stand in the gap this morning we hold before you our homes our families our extended families God and we're asking spirit of God that you would do what you love to do that you would give moms and dads wisdom generously from that treasure trove of hidden wisdom in your heart Lord for all that we face as parents and grandparents in this hour where the sway of this world God is increasing where darkness is increasing where there's a target aimed at the hearts and the faith of our sons and daughters that there are very identities and destiny in you God we stand before you in desperation right now in obedience to your word we say Lord we're not smart enough we're not wise enough to navigate the currents of this fallen world now we need a spirit of wisdom and counsel upon us as moms and dads as grandmas as grandpas gatekeepers of our families and the family line so i'm asking father everywhere across this city where these home altars are being raised up God where there's a yes to you to fear your name in this hour Lord would you open up the heavens would you rain down and give generously a spirit of wisdom to parents to grandparents who are parenting parents Lord help us to know what it is that the spirit is doing to know what it is that the spirit is saying give us ears to hear and eyes to see give us strategies Lord give us counsel give us dreams in the night and visions in the day how to parents how to raise toddlers through those difficult developmental stages how to raise elementary school children Lord facing things we can't even imagine in the school settings how to navigate teenagers Lord and the press against them from the spirit of this age we're asking Abba father good dad would you give a spirit of wisdom to us in Jesus name one voice leave us to whiteboard and strive and figure it all out for ourselves i thank you that you said simply to ask and that your voice is in our ears saying this is the way walk in it this is the strategy this is the route to break through we believe you Lord we stand as those in faith this morning God though it be a mustard seed size we believe you that as we cry this morning as we join our hearts in the power of agreement that you will release wisdom to parents and grandparents God who are just facing a brick wall a barrier not knowing what to do with little ones with teenagers with prodigals with those heading off to college Lord we thank you that you meet us in those places of seeming impossibility and that you break in and you break through with the spirit of wisdom and suddenly the door opens and suddenly the shafts of life come and illuminate the way so God we're asking do that today Lord for those mamas and dads that are just hitting a wall of exasperation we can't get our child through this developmental stage we can't get them through we don't know how to curb the tantrums or the outbursts we don't know how to curb the spirit of fear God i pray meet them with the spirit of wisdom for those with prodigal children Lord i'm asking that you would release a spirit of wisdom and courage and might to the ramas and grandpas contending for wayward sons and daughters the strategies and the blueprints God how hard on the other side of this ask that you're lean i'm giving it to you lavishly i'm giving to you generously so God we thank you in advance for every breakthrough where there is a brick wall before us in every parent in every grand just a very fractured relationship spirit of wisdom come in Jesus name confidence not recoiling in shame because we're not smart enough or we're failing but with boldness and confidence because what we don't know and what we don't see today what our ears long to hear and we're not hearing yet you will answer with a spirit of wisdom you will take us by the hand you will squeeze our hand and lead us through you will buoy our hearts up again in faith and love and hope because it's who you are and what you love to do and so God i just declare these things over every home over every family that you will not leave us alone you will not leave us staring down these brick walls of seeming impossibilities with our children with our marriages with our prodigals with our businesses but God you are faithful to counsel you are faithful to show us the way through to give us the blueprints to give us the map forward and we rejoice in who you are times but i just want to pause for a second before we move on and just say whatever it is let's just individually those joining us on live stream whatever that brick wall is wherever that we can't see we can't hear yet but we need a spirit of wisdom for this particular situation let's just go there now let's just lift it up before him and ask for that wisdom the Lord said i give generously your job is just to ask and so as we just the singers just continue to prophesy that just begin to lift those individual personal things before the Lord now as it is in heaven out of the mouths of our babes out of the mouths of our children our teenagers prayer we prophesy every home in a prophesy our home this is wisdom in our city but in our home give grace this week as families say yes as they gather to worship and pray out of spirit of grace over all the humanity in it oh help us Lord yes of it God you delight in it Jesus administering before you as priests tending the altars of worship and prayer we thank you for this honor as your godly ones and i pray for grace Lord to every home that has said yes to you this week we'll give it a go again we'll sign up again we'll gather the children in all the humanity of family god to each one i pray release a fresh outpouring of grace that that altar would be erected Lord in strength that it would endure God amidst all the distractions and the pressures of life we prophesied just the enduring of that family altar that it would not be edged out by the cares of this life that it would not be lost after this week but it would be tended God tended in wisdom that our children would even lead the way to the altar that our little ones would be marked God and their lives would become lives of praise all the days of their life God I pray fresh grace to stay the course to navigate just the the fullness of humanity as we gather before you Lord little ones and teens and attitudes and relationships God just give grace cover it all with grace set us apart as priests unto our God teach us how to be altar builders and altar tenders as families God we thank you and we praise you for this privileged hour to minister at this corporate altar and to lift before you our home alters Lord we don't take it lightly and all that has been poured out here in worship praise and agreement with your heart is the great intercessor Lord I pray that you would replenish with the oil of intimacy that we could run with you again an intimate partnership we love you Jesus we bless your name in Jesus name we thank you all for gathering this morning we're going to be back here at noon and then again at 6 30 tonight we would love to have you come down and pray with us in the heart of kalamazoo God bless you


with his fourth AOLI title. Suffering himself from Clark Wendland and Andy Morgan. And at this time, I want to introduce to you, he is the radio, 2019, FLW Tour Angler of the Year, is part of Polaris protein. Let's hear it for Mr. David Dudley. Guys, I got him, I got him. Can you believe it? It's finally happening. This trip's been in the works for 18 years. Maybe 18 in one month. I think he's already started talking about it. I'm Jack. I don't know about Joe, but I've been posting this all over social media. Normally I don't post a lot about extra adventures I do, but when you get a chance to go with the legend in Maine, I think he's the governor. He might become the president. I don't know what he's gonna do, but I knew if I was ever gonna go ice fishing, I said if I'm ever gonna do it, and I've said I'm not gonna do it, but watching Joe's videos gets me excited about fishing on the ice, which sounds weird. I said I'd never do it. I said, if I'm gonna do it, I'm gonna do it with the man, Joe. So he is breaking me. I am a virgin right now in the ice fishing world, and Joe gets to, you know, experience the the outcoming of the virgin of ice fishing. What do you think about that, Joe? Well, that's your intro, guys. This is the secret I've been keeping for the whole trip so far. This is the one and only, the legend of the bass fishing and the outdoor world, Mr. David Dudley.   Anytime me and Joe got together when he was on tour, we always laughed, we always had a great time, and I know it's gonna be about the same. I'm sure there's gonna be some mess ups with me on the ice.  If we can find water somewhere, the ice bath challenge. Yes, you guys, comment below. Who wants to see the legend of Maine jump in, I ain't gonna say naked, but jump in the ice up here in Maine. Who wants to see? Comment below, because the pressure is on you, Joe. The pressure is on you. Well, are you gonna do it? Oh, I'll do it, I'll do it. I know you'll do it. Here's the thing, I brought an ice saw too so we can cut a nice big hole. Now you got me a little nervous. He's actually got the tools to make it happen. I always got the tools.  So, ice bath challenge. So there he is, guys. As you can tell, it's not a Maine or New England accent. David came a long way to get up here. Flight got canceled yesterday, had to move the first flight around a little bit before that, it's just been a super challenge getting him up here because of the weather and fitting it into his tight schedule too. He's got a pretty important season coming right up too, I believe, right? Yeah, we are about to start the season in two weeks and I don't have anything ready. I've been focused about this ice fishing. I think I've prepped my mind. More about this trip with Joe Holland than I have prepping my mind for the Bass Pro Tour of MLF. No, so if he has a bad season, guys, you know who's fault it is. But stay tuned to this series, I think you're really gonna appreciate it. We had a blast on tour together. David took me under his wing right away. Here's a true champion in all the regards at the very top of the game and I'm coming in as a rookie, wet behind the neck and green behind the ears, as they say in some places and took me right in, no big timing or anything like that. So I really appreciate everything he's done for me and he said he had an inclin to go ice fishing. I said, well, I can make that happen for you. So stay tuned to this series, guys, because there's gonna be a lot of stories, a lot of inside stories that you might not hear in the papers. You might not hear them on TV and I'm sure we'll have some really fun, a lot of fun times. Thanks for tuning in so far. We'll see you when we get up north. Here we are at the last stop before we hit the outback. And you guys saw me in the beginning of the show and told you I said I ordered some FXR. I want people who know what it's like to live in the outback and keep you warm and look here. What'd you look at here? FXR, FXR, FXR. Yeah, I have a good inclin and I'm not gonna go cold in this adventure, but looking at these rods, come on now. Look at that, ice fishing rods. I don't know if I'm gonna be used to this kind of little micro-efficient stuff, but. This is the end of the Appalachian Trail, right? All right, so we're at the end of the Appalachian Trail. This is like legit. When you are done doing the Appalachian Trail, this is where you end up at. I can't believe probably how many people have raised their hands up with an accomplishment that is like, that's something to be proud of. I know a lot of people that do the Appalachian Trail do a lot of hiking, but that would be pretty cool. Is it actually right here? Yep, it's right here. This is the West Branch of the Penobscot River. So we're gonna be ice fishing. We're gonna be like Jesus on water, walking on water. We're past that mountain. Okay, we're past that mountain. That's where we're going. Katahdin, if you look back. Katahdin is right there. Yes. I thought you said, Joe, I thought you said there was ice out here. Yeah, I hope you're light. Joe, very much.  This is supposed to be ice fishing. Yeah, it's pretty rough.  It's a bit of a tough year for ice.  Bring your own ice. Okay. So that steps can be wilderness. And there's an ice cave there that there's ice in the middle of summer, 4th of July, August, September. There's caves that are still covered in ice in the middle of the summer. Yeah, there's some pretty cool lakes in there. I bet the people back in the day who knew of that cave would take their meats from the sea. Oh, look, we got there. We got there. Is it moose? That's a rare sight up here in Northern Maine. Well, is it moose or whitetail? It's whitetail. Oh, look at them nanny goats. We were going to be looking at darn mooses. Joe over there talking deer. Whitetail deer language. He talking, he talking language. So they yard here. I don't know if you guys have that where you live, but they leave their territory where they spend their whole year and they go to what we have called wintering yards where it's like all spruce, cedar, fir trees. They get a huge canopy so there's less snow underneath and it gives them something to eat. Otherwise the snow gets four, five, six, seven, but deep and they can't survive in the winter unless they're in a wintering yard. So this time of year, the deer all get together. They hate each other's guts. All the big bucks, you know, during the rut, before the pre-runt, but now they're like best friends. Those two little guys there are best friends now to try to make it through the winter. And as long as the coyotes don't get in the deer yards or the loggers cutting out trees, those deer all make it survive the worst of winters, you know, staying in a yard. So really cool. There's a lynx right there. A lynx. You know how rare that is to see a lynx? A lynx. Right there, there's two of them. Look at him looking at us. That is so freaking cool. He's gonna let us get right up to it. Oh, that's cool. Speed up, see if you can get him. I see the foot traps. Well, I see where they went, but that is so cool. That's my first lynx I've ever seen in my life. Oh, look, there he is. Oh my gosh. He's feet from us and don't care.  Isn't that so cool? How's that, David? Oh my gosh. That is like the coolest thing ever. Look, there's the other one. Oh, look at that. Did you get a good picture of it? Hey, hey, hey, right there. Okay, just, they're kidding. I wanted to ask you, what was I just telling you? Literally 10 seconds before that happened. Okay, so you see this curve in the road right around that curve. He was telling me about a lynx that he trapped years ago and you wasn't allowed to trap lynx because they are a protected animal. And sure enough, as soon as we turn that curve, he goes, look, there's two lynx in the road. Like 10 seconds down the road and what's cool about it is this, the story that he was telling was him letting the lynx go and that could have been generational lynx from my man, Joe Holland. It could be the grandkids. That is so cool. So that's a federally threatened species. They primarily only feed on snowshoe hair. And snowshoe hair have like 10 year cycles so they go up and down. So it's pretty low year on rabbit right now. So they could be having a hard time but the cool thing to see, like one really cool thing about a lynx is, so like an adult lynx foot will be over six inches. So those were both kittens but that's still like four and a half inches and they have fur in them and their pads are wide. So they could be on top of the lightest, like see that? Those are all rabbit tracks. See those rabbit tracks? So they either just killed that joker or they're hunting them. And like, look at all the rabbit tracks here. Oh, are they right there around the waxily rabbit?  And then the difference, like the biggest, easiest way to tell them apart is from a bobcat is they have longer ear tufts, like a lot longer.  So those were like super nice. I was, I thought the same thing. I just, I didn't know if I would do that. Three here, because look, there's a set of tracks there there and we had one over there. So there were a minimum of three here and they're all over these rabbit in here. And all because my man turned loose the lynx from years ago from him trapping. My first lynx ever, I caught right there. That's so cool. It's like, whatever, 10 seconds up the road, he was telling me that story and we turn around. It just shows, follow the rules guys, follow the rules and you'll have sights like this. All right, so here's a log and truck that these log and roads are made for and he's coming out with a huge load. Not as huge as Joe was telling me. Joe, was that, was that a huge truck or? No, that one was road legal. So he can go down the road with that. But most of them, a lot of them are oversize. They're like 14 or 16 foot wide and 110 foot long. So they're not legal to go on tire roads. 110 foot long going down a road. So they'll do triples of those. They'll hold three trailers on one caboose. Ah, caboose. So he's been telling me about these log and roads with log and trucks and how many times he's experienced some scary situations. So you always want to give them the most footage on the road that you can give them is what he's telling me. They drive like animals. They don't slow down, but nothing.  I just bought it off the teal off the road. Oh, that's pretty deep. I'm going to let him, I'm going to let him break trail on this. I don't have my clothes on yet. Here, but I spied a piece of chaga. I want to be quick just in case a log truck comes. But yeah, nice piece of chaga right there, reachable. I didn't, all my axes are back home in the tent or in the snowmobile. But this is a piece of chaga right here. This has the most antioxidants of anything on the planet right there. It's a mushroom and it's like a parasite to the tree. No, it lives off the tree and it gets sucked up through the sap route and it'll protrude wherever the weakest part of the tree is and eventually it'll kill that tree. So that's it right there. So from what I understand, this is the highest antioxidants in the world. And what did you say about diabetes? It's been known to either stop diabetes. I don't want to say cura, but I've read that. OK, so you guys know I'm a diabetic. He spotted this fungus going 30 miles an hour down the road. He hits the brake. I said, what are you doing? He spots a piece of fungus with snow on it on the side of the road. And yes, as soon as he told me the history behind this with diabetes, I said, we've got to go back and get it. So look at that thing. Look at that. So I'm going to try to knock that off the tree with just a hammer. And I got a claw hammer, too. There we go. Oh. Watch your head. I should have an axe for this, bud. Uh-oh. Uh-oh, I thought it was coming in. Even if we get a piece of it, we don't need ice. I am so going to eat this. We're going to drink it this week. I mean, drink it. I need my axe. But we'll get it. There we go. That was a piece. And then the Native Americans used it, but they also used the black is highly flammable. So they used to shave the. So we're about to drink something that is highly flammable? Yep. Come on. Yeah, that's what they used for fire starters. That just don't make much sense. There it is. And we'll chop that up. We'll chop that up and drink it. Chopping up highly flammable fungus to cure diabetes. I don't know about that. He wasn't expecting this on this trip. So that chunk right there, all we're going to need is a golf ball off that for this entire trip. The golf ball lasts me a month. So I'll send the rest of that home with David. He's got a year's of golf. Now, good thing. My buddy grinds it up into a powder. Runs it in a stirring machine. Drinks it every day. Chaga. It'll put hair on your chest if nothing else. Or on your face. That's how I got this. Guys, all right, guys, we made it. We made it up here. We're in the Chamberlain parking lot. We're all loaded up. Got the Mr. David Dudley here. He's going on his first snowmobile ride ever. And look what he's on, guys. He's on the old slush magnet. All I hear is this is just like the man, Joe, the legend, this slush magnet is a legend. And I get my maiden voyage on the legend. I'm looking forward to that. I got my maiden voyage on it too a couple of years ago. She's 370, all sorts of kitty cat power, long track. So we got some serious slush to contend with on a serious note. So I told him, just punch it going into it. If you don't make it, we'll tell him. That's right. I hope you got a tow rope. We do. But I think you'll make it. Just give her some gas. Feet of the corn before you get there. And then don't let off on her. Feet of the corn. So we're going to head out now. We got like a, probably a 20 minute snowmobile ride to get to camp. And then we're going to unload the sled, get him all set up in the camp.  What do you think, bud? Oh yeah. That's what I'm talking about. That was awesome. The view out here is just like breathtaking. Oh my God. You wait till the sunrise and sunset. It's the best I've ever seen in my life. Tidda first snowmobile. How'd you ride? Trip rode like a Cadillac. A Cadillac. Nice. No trouble in that slash. And there's going to be fish out in that field right there. It's just a field, right? Yeah. It's just a field. I'm so used to looking at, you know, like fields of grass. I'm not used to looking at this and saying, hey, there's fish right below there. Yeah. We'll get some rucks out about 50 feet away. But I'll wear my buddy's ours, good lake trout and white fish. That's blowing my mind. Blowing my mind. All right. I'm ready. Let's go. All right. This is home sweet home. I'll show you. I'll show you your accommodations for the next week. Hopefully they're up to your standards. Oh, whips. We call this the Taj Mahjol. Or maybe the Taj Mahjol. You could go yellow wherever you want, as you could see. But do brown at the end of those footballs, at the end of those foot tracks. Is that the road to the number two area? Yeah. There's some raisins over there. All right. Here's home sweet home. Hardwood floor. Nice and warm in here. We've got chandelier lights up in here. Yep. That's your bed right here. All right. You've got a new pillow, new pillow case. Actually, you've got a new sleeping bag, too, to be honest. Dang. We've got a new pillar. We've got all kinds of stuff up here. Insulated. That's cool. Insulated. We've got a buddy heater. And then here's the kitchen. We're standing in the kitchen. The kitchen. Yeah, and then this is all the supplies for the week. A little bit overkill on that, but better to have it and not need it than need it and not have it. There you go. I'm excited. What's happening, fellas? What's going on, Joe? Who's the job master on the point?  He wants the jobs. You guys smacking them? I'm good. Oh? I had one decent Lakers over there. That's what they're doing, just grabbing it and going. Lakers, you think? Or whiteies? Plenty of whiteies over here. Yeah. Any way near bottom? Burbot. Burbot. Nice. Size? No. Dang it. How's it going? David, that's Brandon. That's Mark. That's me. David. Mike. Mike. Mark. Mark. I was getting ready to be my first fish I've never seen caught on a lake right there. I've never fished or not. David brought you a present for the camper. They said you boys like to drink, so I got you. Oh my, good one. Yeah. Thank you. I don't know whose camper that's going to, but. It didn't need to come to eyes last night. I heard Slim had a night. Slim was in using good shakes. Really? Geez, that's got to be good. It wasn't pretty. That is Slim. Slim wasn't using the bucket? No, he did take a nap for a bit. He did? Yeah, we had never reached you. Yeah, Joe, so we fished yesterday, and then we run in, and me and Cameron wanted to go for a ride. Good. How you doing? Slim, my buddy, David. Hey, Slim. David, Slim. Good to meet you. So me and Cameron's like, oh. So I left when you guys were heading out. We topped off with fuel when you left. Yeah. I have no idea what's in that fuel. We got to, like, out off a useless road where that weird y is where we was, and we just stopped for a minute. So Cameron's like, my sled's messed up. Something's wrong, Brandon. He's like, we got to go back. I was like, all right, we'll head back. And we didn't even get to Webster. I'm like, my sled's messed up. Like, I had no power, backfire, and like, jeez. We get back. We barely made it back. I can't even believe it almost died once, oh, by Yosha. Cameron's did die once, and we made it back. It was six o'clock, and I was like, we got to get to town and get some rigging. So we went back and bought like 10 fuel cans, that friggin' track supply, come back, pumped all the fuel out of his sled, pumped all the fuel out of my sled, then puts it back, they still ain't, it ain't great. Really? No, it's not good. So you think it's got injectors? Would it be in, no, it wouldn't be injectors. What is it? Something in that fuel, that fuel won't burn. You can't get it out?  I know it, and you don't know what's in the lines. Right, we got to probably, I'd say we got all by about a gallon maybe, and then we put 10 gallons of fresh in it. It was getting better, but I don't know. We'll say Cameron's. I suppose it's water? It's something. Diesel? We filled. Did you go to the diesel pump? No. How much was it? Yeah. $455 worth of gas. No, an ethanol fuel. 450, oh, non-ethanol. That ain't non-ethanol. 90-some gallons in that tank. I'd be getting a refund. Something? 90 gallons of junk. Was your tank junk? No, there is nothing wrong. You can look right in the tank. I don't understand it. We filled milk jog up last night, let it sit overnight. I don't get it. I have no idea. Go on it. Yeah. You do? Take it. Take it. I want to see y'all do it. All right. Oh, my God. Oh, man. That thing's got a lot of line going. He's coming back. This got to be a laker, huh? Oh, yeah, it was peeling. The other one didn't fight. Oh, right here. We'll have to go up. Oh, boys. We got to run. Who's that one? There he is. Hey, size? Yeah. He's not near. Mountain crowd here. Yeah, I was kidding. We'll have you. Now, I'd say definitely a laker. 25 is the brookie mark. Come on. That's boss. Bottom mark. Oh, yeah. Now, he didn't like that. He didn't like the bottom mark. He didn't like it. It's only six pound test, y'all. I'd play him. I got you playing a slot. OK. Yeah, boy. Yeah, boys. Let's get a look at you, baby.  I don't like that one, man. Yeah. See how he's letting that have him back? Oh, it's not 80 pound braid. You've got to go around. Oh, yeah. Nice laker.  That's a keeper. I'll be big as my last. Who's is that? Brandon's? Rowling? Just a dog right there. Is this the one that keeps going up on him? Sounds like a whitefish. I think it smelled like a chubby dog. I think they've been taking it out. Oh, boys. There he is. There he is. A whitefish. That's a lake whitefish right there. 16 inches of keeper. That'll keep. That'll keep. That's good. That's what you call a whitefish. Yep, that's a lake whitefish. That's a good one, yeah. That's a good one.  He's bleeding bad. Yeah, he ain't going to make it. Oh, my God. Is he 16? Yeah, he's 16. Oh, yeah. He's 16. Oh, yeah. Yeah. He's not going to make it. Yeah, he ain't going to make it. Let's keep him. That's fresh water haddock right there. They're good, ain't they? Yeah, mind your own business. Oh, jeez, I'm looking at the wrong one. Here, hold that baby out. So you just caught Dave and I dinner. Tell us about it. Yeah, well, she's no wonka, but you. We'll eat that, too. Yeah. That's an hors d'oeuvre. Good whitefish, bud. 16 and a half inch whitefish. Keep up for dinner, Joe. Perfect. Thanks, bud. Throw her in the back. The old Chuck Norris chop. Chuck Norris. Side chop right there. Put that on it.  There's two of them looking at. Got him. Yes. Got him. All right, buddy. Got him. Oh, this might be a laker. He had some competition coming in. That's a good fish. This might be my first fish, Joe. How'd you drag it? This could be my first fish, Joe. Oh, it's a. What do we got? It's a sucker. I got a sucker for a sucker catching a sucker. I don't think I've only seen that once. A sucker catching a sucker. That's crazy. Uh-huh. Brandon's going to use that bait right there for a, this is bait for a giant lake trout. Oh, that's what we're talking about. Hold them up. Would you look over there? Mwah. Big size. Oh, I don't know if I'd do that. Would you look over there? I could definitely see the resemblance. Hold that baby out. Would you look over there? Would you look over there? Pretty good sized sucker. Mwah. And there was two suckers. Oh. Almost a catch release. Almost catch release. Yeah, we'll give that to Brandon for bait. Okay. He'd love that. All right. He'd better catch a giant. I think that's the only thing you'll catch on that. But I reckon what I was getting at now that we have forward-facing sonar, what I was doing was confirming what he was doing was, he's just saying, hey, I'm over here and they don't care. They would come to him. Yeah. And that's now that I've seen forward-facing sonar, so they're a hundred foot. They don't know really, I mean they might know my presence, but as soon as I turn the boat and start v-lining right to them, I mean the whole school's like, hey, let's go check this out. And they come straight to the boat. I got my little tiny bait on.  These things are great. Look. They're pretty. I don't know if this one, they smell like cucumbers. I can smell it on this one or not. It might not be big enough to smell. Little whitefish. Yeah, I got to catch something.  Wonder brood. The other whitefish. I think he bumped me. Yeah, he's interested in you. He's all over me. Yes. Got him here. No, you got it. Dude, these things fight hard for as small as they are.  What do I do? Nothing. I'm just going to boat. A little better. Dude, that's almost a keeper. They flip out like a tuna. Oh, the hook already popped out? Yeah. Got into you? Sweet. Got two on one. He would keep if we wanted him, but we got enough fish to eat. And he's not hooked deep, so whitefish are kind of fragile. Show him to the camera real quick. We want to fish that one, that lure. Nice lake whitefish, guys. 16 inches. That's a keeper. Got him on a little Wonder Bread. Castamac. Wonder Bread. That is a perfect name for that fish. Right? Isn't that awesome? Yeah. That could not be any more perfect than that. For the fishing, my first experience ice fishing, I'm telling you, is the way to go. I might actually, Joe, consider moving to Maine in the winter. I never thought I'd say that, but listening to the peace and quiet, having the lake all to, basically all to ourselves in nature, don't get no better than that. That's the key. So you're saving the skin off all those fish? Yeah. I'm going to set this hook right here, okay? Oh, look at that pink meat. Oh, we might have to eat that sushi style. So we're saving that? Yeah. Sweet. You're saving the fins, too? Yeah. Yeah, we're going to set them out off, but we'll make like little chips out of it. Sweet. We won't have many, but... It's all right. We'll mate tomorrow. Yeah, true that. Bright orange meat on that lake trout. I mean, that brook trout. He had a full belly. I'm curious what he was eating. Oh, look at that big chunk of boneless brook trout. That was a good size fish. The end. Beautiful. So with these, we just... Where'd that guts go? I don't see those guts.  Try to get them super clean? Yeah, a little bit better than that. Do you see what I'm saying? Put them in there. And throw them in the pan? Yeah. In oil? Yeah. And you can use starch. Starch gets them crispier. Oh, really? Like corn starch or something? Yeah, corn starch. Well, that's what corn starch does. So look at all those little potato chips right there. Or skin chips. What they do, they do it with salmon. They do it with salmon. Don't do the cask. Oh, is that what that is? No, I don't know. That's a trout. Oh, yeah, that's still a trout. Yeah. You don't want to do the cask though, because the cask has got like dirt that comes off the skin like way after it's dead. We got all the hooks out. We're going to feed these to the fox. We got a local fox that's been kind of poking around camp. We see the tracks in the snow. He got pretty close to it, so he's hungry. So why not? We're going to give them the remains. But there were some hooks in those fish. We made sure we got the hooks out first, because that's an awful thing to do to anything. So we got us some skin chips. Dudley's showing me how they do it when they cut fish all the time. I've never had skin chips. I've eaten skin on trout and smelt before. Just cooking them all kind of whole, just gutted. But this is pretty exciting to have skin chips. Get on nice and crispy. Here we go. Got us a little... Here we go. Looks good, buddy. I'm getting hungry already. I know it. So we got cask, brook trout, white fish. We're going to let you guys know which are the best. Those are great fillets for brook trout chips. And then this is just junk, I think, right? Yeah. Okay, I'll put that in the junk pile. Pretty darn good. Who's got a funny Game Warden story? I know, man. I mean, yeah, we all got them. Funny what you like. I love this to the Game Warden. I got a bunch. They're brilliant.  Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. Oh, man. No, North Carolina you can bait. And all they do is run every camera in the morning and figure out which one they want to turn on. Just like Maine. That's what they do. Freshest, freshest. These tattacams and stuff have changed it all up in Maine. Absolutely.  Yep, yep. Saves a lot of gas and running around knowing, you know what I mean? You don't have to tend your, like, we run some baits for our buddies out in Ohio that come hunt with us or whatever.  I'll tell you who put me in my place about baiting. No, this is 10 years ago. I was like, eh, baiting, that's really not hunting, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Ted Nugent. Ted Nugent.  And everybody who watched the show, Ted's there, he's got his big box hands. He's going, throwing the corn out. It looks like the yellow brick road mounted on the corn. Ted Nugent looks at the camera and goes, I know what all of y'all are thinking, including me. If you think this is not baiting, or that you think it's wrong not baiting, he said, I ain't got one thing to say to y'all.  And I went, smoke me. I was like, all right, let's hunt over bait. It really did change my mind when he said it that way. And I throw bait where I want to throw bait at.  And I was like, just, oh yeah. Okay, all right, let's bait. Don't give me some corn down. I'll hunt over it. You know, he's the one. Way more ethical shots, everything. He put me in my place, so now my- Can't mean. You can't deer hunt over bait. Can you guys bait deer? Not in Virginia, but you can dog hunt them. Oh yeah, we dog. They dog hunt them. Dog. That's where you're from. Yeah. Our record is 63 deer by three o'clock in one day. Let's go. 63. That's Washington County's total last year. Let's do that. It was a peanut plantation, damage permit. You know, it was all legal. It really was. It was all legal. 150. And the actual farmer came out there and he said, if a deer runs by you and you don't shoot, he says you're- Don't come by. Yeah, he said you're never welcome back. I've heard that before. You're never welcome back here again. We were hunting one day and it's like a little, it's basically an island and a deer always get on it. And so we killed 31 one year and 31 another year.  What do you mean nanny goat? Does.  Two doves come swimming off. I said, Jacob, I said, go on over there. Do them. He pulls up there beside them and as soon as he got close, I reached out. He said, John Lee, do not put that deer in the boat. And I'm holding the nanny. I guess she's going eh. She's going like this and the mama done turned. He's like, do not put that in the boat.  So I just drop it back. Mama done turned in. So this one gets up and it starts swimming back. Mama makes it to shore. We don't stop the boat. We're just giggling, watching mama gets up, shakes off. She goes. Well, anyway, we was on a deer drive over there. And you know what? Some of the land, a lamb deer over there, what we call what he? Nanny goats, nanny goats. Little baby lamb. Nanny goats. Nanny goats. Yeah. 40 pounds, 30 pounds. Down there. Well, we're on a deer drive in this full land. Only three of you, right? Only three of you, right? Oh no, there was plenty of us. We were in Ohio. Oh, you were in Ohio. Yeah. I thought you were in Maine. In our buddy, we were out in Ohio. Him and his buddy was on the high ground. Jesse was in the low ground. That deer took off and there's like a, on the property line, you know, page wire or whatever, found fence. And that deer went right through that page wire fence and got stuck. And I think it was just probably going, you know what I mean? So Bobby and Jeb go over and there, one of them was hanging on to this deer and the other one was trying to get his head out back out through the page wire. They rustled this deer out and let the thing go and the thing just kind of looked at him and it walked down over the hill and to do to do. Boom!  He comes up over the hill. He had that just like a jackrabbit over his shoulder. And Bobby's like, I knew you weren't going to let go, Jesse. My secret mix. I like a secret mix. All right. We got Dudley's secret mix. He said something about black in Old Bay. I know in Maine we'd never even heard Old Bay. I wouldn't never heard about it other than I went to his crab shop to the right saw if he wanted to offer. Yeah, that's all. My secret mix. This right here, Joe. I'd have to hurt you. I mean, don't ask me what's in here. I won't even ask. Don't ask. I'd have to hurt you. I'm just saying. It's smelling good. I know that. That's quite a mix in the Pam. We got Cusk. We got Whitefish. And we got some brook trout in there. Getting a nice good sear on them in the pan. This will be my first time eating. What's it called? Cusk. C-U-S-K. Look at that. What'd you look of there? What'd you look of there, Joe? What'd you look of there? Yes, sir. That's definitely a piece of Cusk. That's good. That is good.  So it's like potato chips. But it's the skin of whatever fish you eat. Salmon chips are pretty common items. So basically, as you can tell, this is the skin off of the trout that we caught. We're the Band-Aid. We are going to season these up just like you would a potato chip.  And you scaled them, too. Yep, scaled them. Yep, scaled them. So we're going to dry them up a little bit. I don't like to put... You don't want a lot of moisture going into oil when you throw them in there. You want them to be pretty dry. So all I'm doing right now is putting these out right now. We're going to dry them up and create our fish chips. Getting them dry. Now we're going to season them up. And you want to go pretty heavy on the seasoning because when you put them in there, more than half the seasoning will fall off. And it doesn't take long to cook them. I like to use grape seed oil. Grape seed oil is a higher temperature and it's a sweeter oil. It's one of the highest temperatures you can cook, but you can use whatever oil you want. We got it at a high temperature. That thing cooks so hot, man. It does. You can go on the other side. It's a little easier to adjust on the other side. See how it does without corn starch. Because I got that Louisiana seasoning and that's probably most of the corn starch. I probably didn't cook that one long enough. Oh, wow. That might be better than the fish. I know. All right, guys. That is going to do it for tonight. We are in bed cozy up, not to each other, to our sleeping bags. David's over there. Sorry, but it's a little less light. He's trying out the new brown and sleeping bag. He's going to let us know first thing in the morning if it's any good. I'm over here in my old Cabela's. I know this one's good. We're in the teens. It's getting pretty chilly out there. It's clearing up. Had an awesome day. Awesome day picking them up down Bangor and we had a great ride up. Got to see some deer. Got to see some lynx, which are pretty close to endangered. They're on the federally threatened list and got really close to lynx. And then David got to meet the boys and we got to hang out a little bit. We went over and hung out tonight, told some stories, heard some stories, had a great time and came back and ate some fish. So all in all, great day. Tomorrow we're going to fish local to here on the Chamberlain chain and see if we can get a couple of native brook trout topside. And we'll go from there. Thanks for tuning in, guys. See you tomorrow.


Maybe to open the discussion, I see, I heard three things or three levels of intervention and I would try to give some form of hierarchy. I think, Daniel, listening to you, there is an element that is missing and we heard it from Jacques and Alexander before, is what is the future that we want? I mean, probably, and you will react, maybe, it's... And for me, if I would relate technology, that's what I would define as what helps you identify the design principle. If you take an example of a smart city project in Japan, it starts with happiness. What is happiness in this mega-concentrated environment? And here it could be the same. What is the future that we want? And the answer will be different region by region, community by community. I would be happy to hear about this. On the ethics on the fly, we have this concept already, you mentioned it for regulation. The problem you have is how you bring all the participants at the same speed. And very often, the regulator use the tools of the past to assess the new situation, because the legal process makes it complex to have everybody to be on the fly at the same time. So what would be your view on this? And then the last point is about the global governance, but that relates to what we've heard before on the need for debate and to educate in the form of transparency, so that society as itself can really appropriate the topic and define the future. But maybe on the first thing, Daniel, ethics on the fly and everybody on board. Would you like me to try and respond? These are both very difficult questions. I can very quickly comment. I think to the first question, which is extremely interesting, what is the future that we want? That's definitely a question that has to be kept in mind by communities that are in the process of trying to make decisions and set up systems and so on. But you gave a very interesting response yourself asking the question, saying it will depend on the community. It will depend on the society. And so what we really want is what mathematicians call a scheme, an axiom scheme. You can't have an axiom, but you can have an axiom scheme. That is sort of a way of thinking and a conceptual framework in which you can go from a certain specific, more or less specific answer to what is the future that we want. So it's going to be maybe more collective in Asia. In Asian societies are more individualistic. In Western societies, say, I mean, this is just a schematic. And so you go from one sort of bureau on the future, on the future you want, to a way of reflecting on what place you're going to leave for innovation and technology. And that's going to change from community to community. But we can make progress on the conceptual structure of the discussion and the Democratic consultation. Ethics on the fly, you said it. Again, I have no, I just don't know how to do it. I just don't know how to do it. Clearly, we need to put much more thought and much more time into trying to think ahead of time. How would that work? In fact, Arthur said that towards this conclusion. We need to take the time and energy and intelligence to think of consulting reflection structures at the various levels and various time scales. But I know what I'm saying is extremely generic and not a recipe. Not a recipe at all. No, no, no recipe. But yeah, any other comments on this? If I can add, I think you raise a very important question, which is how do we ensure that people are put up to speed? And how do you ensure there's not a lag between regulators and policymakers and the speed of technology, which is something that you highlighted with pharmaceutical regulation in particular? And I think we will increasingly need more translators. Translators, that is, people that have one foot in innovation technology, but also one foot in policymaking and regulation to be able to kind of bridge the sort of raw data and raw information that is coming from these flurry of scientific innovation into actionable recommendation and thought process for for for policymakers. So you will need people that play this role, but you will also need for and I think, again, the WPC health is a fantastic example of this, where you can have debates with all the key decision makers that are being put to a common ground before moving into any kind of of this. No, I think definitely that that's interesting to relate this to a point that was made on the previous debate about the problem of trust. Are they trustable translators in today's society, at least that will be recognized as such, and I think it's part of the debate.


I'm gonna interrupt, I have to interrupt. The problem, right? No, because you're taking the piss now. It's not, no, I don't think that's true. We can talk about mutilations that happen in the dairy district. I disagree, that's cruel.  Why? That's an insane position. I mean, I know, I disagree. We're gonna look this up often. You're making irrational claims. I can take a pee. No point. There's no point. Can I ask you a question? Yeah, brother. Of course you can. You said you would kill a lion if it was Sultavents Protector human.    Yes.  You know that's what lions do every day. Yeah, but I can't go out there and stop them, can I? Why not?  I'll put it this way. I don't know how to deal with that problem, but I think it's morally preferable if carnivorous animals didn't exist in terms of ethics, because they eat animals alive. They shred them alive. It's horrible. And even God thinks that. Does it? Isaiah 11.6. Got blocks. The wolf will lay down with the lamb. When you mean that emaciatic days when the Messiah comes. Even God thinks that. There'll be wall of peace. It might not be. No, it's true. There will be, but... So I'm not the only one. It's not crazy for me to think that if God thinks that. No, but at the moment, there isn't. No, but that's what I'm saying. I'm saying I have a belief, and I don't know how to change that, but you're saying it's a bit crazy. Well, I don't know. Like, you maybe go in there. It's a bit mad to think that. But even God believes that.   Because I can't. Poison foxes. Quite easy.     I honestly believe that there should be a way to contain carnivorous animals like foxes. I don't think we should go straight for poisoning them. I don't think that's a... I personally think of that. You can't change the nature. No, no. One second. I think we should separate them somehow. From, like, I don't want to see lion's shred antelope or fox's shred rabbit to live. It's to separate them and feed them what? Preferably vegan pet food. They can't survive. Carnivorous animals can't survive. Even cats need to eat meat. Oh, no. You can get vegan cat food in that. No, you can. No, you can. Have you looked into vegan cat food? I have looked into it. Have you looked into the research? As far as I know, you can't... Have you looked into the research? They need cheering. They need nutrients found in meat. They don't need meat. But anyway, what's the problem with my position against eating animals for us? Do you have a problem with that? Because we can talk about carnivorous animals, but... It's fine, but I think you're questions wrong. It's why not be vegan. You're the one making a claim for people to be vegan so it should be the other way round. No, no, because I'm putting... Why be vegan? The burdens on the person to justify are killing the animals. Why not?  Again, why? Do you think it's justified? Why not? Well, justify it. In what way? Is it just right to make them walk here? Morally justify it. What's the moral problem? The moral problem is animals are sentient conscious beings similar to us, not on the same level of consciousness. But what happens to them matters to them. They feel fear, pain, suffering. They care for their young. If it's wrong to torture them because they experience that suffering then it's also wrong to murder them. And I don't think we need to do it. We don't need to as a... We don't need it for health. I heard this money thing. Let's start by... Actually, is it whether it's morally wrong or not? Okay. Why is it morally wrong to kill someone? Murder. A person, a human being. Because you're taking away their experience. And they're an individual. They're a subject of their experience. And they just have to have sovereignty over their own experience so they don't have to take that from other people. So no more about abortion. Are you then pro-life? Yes, after a certain level of sentience. Yeah, like non-trivial sentience. Why would you need sentience?  In fact, even from day one, but certainly you could argue from heartbeat whether there's actually human heart beating there. No, well, I only care about the human as much as it turns into a human. And I only care about the fetus. But animals are not human and you still care about it. No, no, sorry, human. I only care about the being at the point it becomes sentient, conscious, having an experience. Because otherwise, I mean, I don't advocate for keeping people on life support for 20 years. I'll tell you the way I see it. The way I see it is the two-week roots you can go down when defining ethics and moralism. Which I believe, actually, is because I'm religious too. I'm not going to argue from that position because, obviously, you're not religious too, so there's no point in... I'll just say Isaiah 116 and the Garden of Eden. Do you have the Garden of Eden? Hang on, hang on. So, morals and ethics in general, my personal position is that absolute morality becomes from God. And if God decides that this is okay, if God says we can go out and eat animals, then that's fine with me. I'm not going to argue because if you don't believe in God or you don't believe in the Torah or my beliefs, then... Well, I care about your beliefs.  I would argue as a general society that morality or our laws come from a social contract, which is basically... I know what a social contract is. I'm not going to punch you if you don't punch me. No, no, some people and humans can't reciprocate a social contract. I think we've extended this to the whole species, the whole human species, because we're part of the species that isn't capable of the social contract, even though there are specific individuals there... That can't reciprocate a social contract. Exactly, that mentally... Do you think that's logical? I think it's logical. Why? I think it's logical. Why do we get protection and other species who experience the world don't? Because they don't care about us. Maybe they don't care about me. Someone with a mental handicap doesn't care about me. He's part of the group. It doesn't matter. I would argue... What does it matter if they're part of the group? What does that matter in ethics? Two things. First of all, we are guided a lot by the ones we feel affinity to, and our group, which I think we can extend to all of humanity, are the ones we feel affinity to. But also, when you kill... One second. We feel affinity... Okay, there's two things here. Affinity to each other is a moral justifier. I think... If we feel affinity to each other... It's not a basis, but I think it certainly informs our morals.  Human being who has no idea completely doesn't know anything. Well, not know anything. Let's just say they know about it as much as I can. Hang on. I would be hurting their family, their parents, their brother, sister... It's the two things I don't want to get too... You're adding lots of stuff on it. I'm going to interrupt. I have to interrupt. One second. One second. I think we're all going to be on a monologue and we're not going to address it. You're saying that ethics are dictated by affinity and I think you pushed off of that. I don't think... No, I think... Because I think just not sharing affinity to some humans and then you think it would be justified to kill them. No. Right? But coupled with that, you said people with a severe disability who don't know much, but I would say, No, they have to... They have to be... No, no, no, but babies will grow. So let's just say someone with a severe... This is called the argument from marginal cases, by the way. Someone with a severe mental handicap. Let's say they're about the level of a cow, right?  I don't know. Just forgive me if this is not the... It's because of their family, yeah? Because it harms their family. Mostly, I would say, if we're defining ethics as morals, which is really absent of a supreme moral authority. Well, we're having a secular discussion. We can have a religious one too. It's absent of a supreme, absent of absolute morality. I think the only morality or ethics that matter is the social contract. No, one second. One second. No, no, no. Because you said social contracts, and you're saying that they broke... So I've somehow broken a social contract between... Why are they part of the social contract, and others are not? That's really the question. So one second.  I would say from a secular perspective, certainly of a far lesser evil than killing... I'm not asking if it's a lesser evil. I ask, is it okay to do it for a sandwich like we do to cows for burgers? Well, the problem is it's hard for me to really separate my beliefs from my personal beliefs. That's what I'm saying, but yes. Well, I'm probably taking to logical conclusion...  Just a yes or no is fine. Probably yes. Okay, so I can go to this civilization here myself. I can actually start breeding them, plenty of them. Just like we do to animals here, just the same way, factory farms, mass killing. I can do that to those mentally disabled human beings on this separate civilization who can't form a social contract, who have no family. I don't think it's actually possible. No, no, no. I'm not asking if it's possible. It is possible. It's logically possible. It's setting up a hypothetical that cannot exist. You cannot breed them without human beings. You need to... And by the way... You cannot have a philosophical discussion without creating hypotheticals because we can't act in the real world right now. I want to find out where you'll be. No, no, no.  Even you're hypothetical and you're asking this person who is somehow living by himself on the desert island and yet surviving without any family, there is again a hypothetical that doesn't exist. I would say... You need hypotheticals. Do you know how to... I mean, in question, why would an lion want to come right now? Well, it wouldn't. So why would... You asked me a hypothetical when we started this conversation and now... One second. One second. You said if a lion did this, would you stop them? Well, actually, no. My question was not hypothetical. One second. My question was what lions do every day that can live as animals. And then you asked me another one. You said would you do this and they'd kill all of these beings? You asked me to imagine... It wasn't hypothetical. That is actually reality. Okay. I was... Because you said before that you would kill an lion to save a human, so I think that shows that you understand that humans have some kind of...  Okay, well then it's not here in reality. I brought it to reality. You're saying... Foxes... Well, I gave you a practical example. Okay. Go pose for foxes I can give you a practical example. A practical example.  That happens a lot. They've wandered into the bush. No one will know they're gone.  Again... I'd still... They can't reciprocate social contract. They had no family and they're isolated but they're in the bush somewhere. That's cool. From a secular perspective... In your moral view without there being a supreme being? In my personal perspective, no. But actually, probably yes. From your perspective... That's hilarious and... That's not why. That's the thing. That's an insane position, dude. Come on, be honest with me. Why? Because it's an insane position because murdering someone who is experiencing the world is murder, it's wrong. Is he experiencing though? Yeah, of course he is. They're experienced to the level of a cow. What do you call that experience? Well, then... Anyways, why don't we talk about your actual beliefs? Well, I'd say my beliefs... I believe God created animals for our use. Okay. In the way that we're being used now. Do you live in the UK? Yes. Okay.   Cows like that. Okay. Not bacon but... Let's stick with chickens. All right. So here in the UK these chickens have been raised in like sheds. Yeah. They grow four times faster than they did in the 1950s. So they grow really fast. Yeah. And then they take these chickens they sometimes two beats of support their own body weight. Their life is basically inherent suffering, right? Not really. Not really? No, because you're anthropomorphic. You're projecting the way you would feel if you would be in that position. The thing is a human being in prison... Well, they do suffer. Not really. A human being in prison isn't so much about physical suffering. It's about mental suffering. Chickens are not capable of that.  But even though they don't have mental anguish. Not capable of mental anguish. Oh, really? Yeah. They don't have any animals. So there's no evidence that... I don't need that, but I think just by seeing them... So you're just going off faith that they don't feel anything? No, it's more than faith. I think it's... One second. Yeah. If animals don't feel anything, why is there kosher guidelines? I don't know. You can't cause pain to animals, yeah? So your religion even believes you can cause pain to animals? Hang on, hang on. We're talking... I disagree that we should be able to cause that pain. One second? Yeah. How can you cause pain to a chicken if they don't experience anguish and suffering and in fact I'd argue this... No, no, no, no, no, no. It is. One second. So is it kosher to cause an animal suffering and then... Kosher doesn't come into it. There are specific laws of how to slaughter and it's not just good to do with animal suffering. We're allowed to slaughter the animals. So are there guidelines for how to treat animals in the Torah? In... There is a general... There is a general... Am I allowed to be called to an animal? No. It's not about the animal at all. Oh, really? It's not because the animal is a human being. So how can you possibly be called to an animal that can't experience cruelty? Because it's not about the animal. It's about the person. In fact, I would argue... How is it called with that kind of experience? So one second. Do chickens have a brain? Not a brain that they're not complex emotions. They have basic instincts, but not complex emotions. Do they have a brain, I asked? Of course they have a brain. Do they have a functioning nervous system? Yes. Do they feel pain? Yes. But the chickens in factory farms don't experience suffering? Sorry, mate.   It's ridiculous. It's ridiculous. They might experience some pain, some physical pain. What is physical pain? It depends. What the kinds of chickens exist, the kinds of chickens experience isn't an immediate physical pain. Come on, bro. Come on. Most pain... No, because you're... You're taking the piss now. It's not. It's because most pain is mental, not physical. No, no. I'm not talking about most pain. No. I'm talking about chickens experience pain is emotional. Suffering is not physical. So you don't... Unless it's... Something like really, really out to the... One second. Out to the norm. But just the chickens have a small place to live. They don't suffer from that. So basically...  So does your religion teach you that animals don't suffer? My religion doesn't teach me anything about animals. Your religion... You just told me that teachers should not be cruel. Not to be cruel, but that's about the first... How can you be cruel to an animal? Again, that's... So, but what does it not do? Because if you want to inflict pain on something... And there's the... Okay, let's... Let's try to explain. So when they experience pain, they don't experience suffering along with it? No. There's not... It's not the same thing. What is it? Suffering. The main part of suffering is emotional. It's not from the physical. And animals don't have emotions? No. Not in that way. What do you mean in that way? When a chicken is raised in a small place, he doesn't realize there's this whole world outside. It's not the same as human being in prison. Chickens don't want to be free. They've got no capacity. They've got no understanding. They've got no knowledge of freedom. They don't know about that. You couldn't even explain it. Even if a chicken was free and then you later caged it, it still does that. You're talking about it. I never talk about the idea of knowing... No, no, no. Cows and pigs and... No, they don't have this concept.  No, they don't have this concept. They do. I mean, you're making irrational claims.  No. It depends how you treat them. I've got animals. I've got animals. So you're saying it's not bad. So caging hens is not bad. I've got animals and I can open the cage and they will not escape because they've got their food. Because they've been in there the whole time, dude. So they've got a stop-clone cis drive. They don't know to leave. No, I actually have got goats. I have goats and now they're living in a much smaller place, not a tiny place to run about, but they're happy there. They get their needs met and I open the door. So when I take a free animal from the wild, like an elephant, and I put them in a small cage, they do not suffer because of that. Depends how small they are. No, no, no, no. Smaller, they can't turn around. And they suffer physically. So animals can suffer physically? Suffering is emotional. Suffering is not physical. So that's suffering? To a degree, yes. OK. And can chickens suffer physically to a degree? All the animals can suffer physically to a degree. They can experience pain. So now they can suffer? No, no, we've established they experience pain. But they don't suffer mentally, you don't think? No, no. OK, and do you have evidence that they don't suffer? I don't have evidence, but I think the evidence there in front of us... So where do they receive the pain? That's all. Where do they receive the pain? There's a difference between physical pain and mental pain. So they feel it here in their leg and they don't have a brain that processes it. So do animals experience pain, the reaction of pain in their brain? Obviously. OK. So they do it... All pain is experienced in the brain, but it's an instinct. If you touch something caught, you pull away, that's an instinct. And if they don't pull away, what happens? They do. They do pull away. No, no, no, one second, in a factory farm they're born into suffering because they're grown too big, they can't support their body weight, they lie on the farm, they often die on the floor. I know what you're talking about. Millions die on the floor, there's statistics for this. It's about 4% death rate in factory farm sheds. I'm an investigator as well, I'm not just a street debater. Millions die on the floor. 4% does not, but OK. When you talk about 1.1 billion chickens every year, it's not 30, 40 million or so far.  Therefore it's OK. Well, yes. It's not OK to do them. Yes. OK. Well. It's a secular world because that makes you a bad person. So it's causing physical pain one second. It's causing physical pain cruelty? Gratuitous pain, yes. No. It's causing animals physical pain cruelty. It's not a yes or no, it's I'm adding a word, gratuitous pain. It's when you're causing pain just for the sake of causing pain. OK. And if I'm causing pain, if I'm causing them animal testing for medical reasons, go ahead. So in the context of food animals, eat them, go ahead. So can I be cruel for food? The cruelty is good. The cruelty is not part of what you need to eat them. It is an inherent part of factory farming. It's inherent in its nature. Can't avoid it. Is it OK to be cruel to those birds in order to eat them in your religion? It is OK to raise them in a factory farm setting because the cruelty is done with a purpose. You're not being cruel for the sake of being cruel. You're being cruel for purpose to be able to eat them. So in your religion it's OK to be cruel to animals for food? No, it's not cruel. Is that what your religion is? I disagree. That's cruel. No, one second. Causing animals physical pain when we don't need to eat them because we don't need it for our health. We don't need it to survive. Most people agree it's wrong to be cruel to animals, even for food. They don't. Most people eat chicken. No, no. They believe it's wrong to be cruel, but they conduct a behavior that is in conflict with their beliefs.  I don't really care about the chickens. Some people have the balls. Some people actually do care about chickens, but they eat it. It's not even cruel. So basically I can take, let's say cows, I can boil them alive with no stunning, no kosher slaughter.  Why would you need to do that? Why do you even need kosher slaughter if cruelty doesn't matter in the context of food? Why does kosher slaughter exist? Boiling alive is an act of cruelty. To eat them? No. Is it in the context of food? Because the cruelty is done with a purpose. You're not being cruel for the sake of being cruel. You're being cruel for purpose to be able to eat them. No, it doesn't. I didn't say in the context of food. Yes, you did. It's for the purpose. No, the purpose. So that's why I say let's stick with my words. The purpose is to eat them. But you don't need the cruelty part. You don't need the cruelty part to eat them. You can do that. No, you can. It's not cruelty in the context of food. I gave you an example. I gave you an example. Let me try again. To use an animal for a purpose isn't in itself cruel. I never said that. I'll do that. Hang on. That's not what I said to. You can do that in a way that doesn't cause unnecessary suffering. That is not a problem. What do you mean by unnecessary? Is it necessary to eat meat? Unnecessary suffering is is it necessary to eat meat? Unnecessary suffering is to cause them extra suffering that you can achieve the same purpose. What is a factory farm? You can achieve the same purpose. What is a factory farm? You cannot achieve that purpose. You cannot supply meat, chicken to the masses without factory farming. You're acting like we need to. Eating meat isn't a problem. Let's go through a step by step. Eating meat, no problem. So long as animals weren't involved? Eating meat in the way I see it. Eating meat, no problem. Killing the animals to eat meat in itself, again, no problem. I don't call that murder because murder is illegal killing. It's not illegal. So again, no problem. But you should achieve this aim, this goal of killing the animal in order to eat the meat in a way. You don't get your meat. You get your meat from factory farms like everyone else. You should achieve that in a way that minimises cruelty as much as possible. Why do you care about cruelty? It's not cruelty in the context of food, she told me. Again? Why do I care about cruelty? You said it's not cruel if it's done in the context of food. In your religion, it's okay to be cruel to animals for food. No, it's not cruel. So why would you care about minimising it? I said purpose. But it's not cruelty in the purpose of food. So why do you care about minimising it if it's not cruelty? Because when a person has a way of getting his goals in a way that is not wantonly cruel, gratuituously cruel and yet you know what? I think you believe cruelty is wrong in the context of food, which is why you want to minimise it. No, I don't. So you don't think cruelty is wrong? Of course cruelty is wrong, but raising animals isn't cruel. So if you don't think cruelty to animals is wrong? No, I think it's wrong but raising chickens in a factory setting where they experience pain and suffering is not cruel. Even though the chicken experiences pain. I think the definition of cruelty is inflicting pain for the sake of inflicting pain where there's nothing gained. That's your definition of cruelty. Yes. Animal cruelty can happen in a farm. Happens all the time. In what way? In what way? I just explained to you what happens to the chickens. No, I don't think that's true. We can talk about mutilations that happen in the dairy industry. We can talk about animals having been stolen from their mothers in the dairy industry. I don't think that's true. They get maternal bonds with their child and they get trauma from them being taken. They get mutilated. They get castrated without anesthetic. They get mastitis. They get lameness in the pork industry. They get killed in gas chambers, which causes them suffering because of CO2 gas. It causes them eyes burning, nose burning, all of this stuff. We're at egg industry. They're pushing out egg after egg after egg every day. They lose calcium. They suffer on the... They do that anyway. God's created animals, didn't He? God's created animals laid one egg every month. Now they've been selectively bred to lay 300. They still do that. They're quite happy. Which causes them suffering. They're not happy. No, it doesn't. I will show some footage on the screen. I don't use footage of chickens at home. When you're out here and you eat eggs, that's where it comes from. So what? They lay eggs every day. Don't tell me they won't do it anyway. They lay eggs every day. Yeah, because they've been selectively bred to. So what? Yeah, because it causes them suffering. It does cause suffering. Magic is very happy. It does in a farm context. It does. It's not the egg laying. It's the... Going back to your argument that having them a factor in the... The factory farming setting, the environment, the small enclosed environment. How do you know it doesn't cause them any pain to lay eggs every day? It doesn't seem like cause them pain. How do you know? They've never said anything. They've never told me. They don't explain it to you? They've never told me. They can't explain it if they don't say it to you? Yeah, I don't think it does. It doesn't seem to be. I mean, how do you know...  No. They're just lying. So why would you care about a backyard egg? I don't raise chickens for cruel. Anyways, I think we should finish this off. Not a problem. Yeah, we should finish it off because you don't think it's cruel. I don't think it's cruel. You don't even... OK. You don't think it's cruel? Factory farms are not cruel? No. I don't think factory farms are cruel. Again, factory farms in itself are not cruel. There's no inherent cruelty in raising animals in captivity or even in small conditions. But you should not be cruel that we don't gain anything from the cruelty. If it's not cruel, it shouldn't matter what cruelty I do inside that farm if it's just not cruel. It is. It is. Because when you... I define animal cruelty as wanton or gratuitous, causing suffering gratuitously or wantonly without any gain. OK, so you're talking... I asked you one second. You can animal test if it's going to help people, even if it's causing tumours to rise. I don't care. So boiling dogs in Eulen, when they boil dogs alive in Eulen, right, at Dogmeat Festival, they believe it makes the meat taste better and it's got medicinal qualities. Is that good? Is that fine? It does taste better. It does taste better. It does taste better. Is that fine? Does it taste better? I don't know. Is that cruel? No, I ask you, is that cruel? Because it's done for a purpose. I have no idea. It does taste better. I ask you, is it cruel? That's all. It would appear cruel to me. OK, but why? It's done for a purpose. True, but again... And they're going to eat them. They're not going to waste. The dog suffers and screams and yelps, but they're boiling them alive for food. It's not cruel. I'm going from my background where we are taught to kill an animal first without boiling it because that just makes them suffer. They can't suffer. They can't experience mental suffering, remember? They can't experience physical suffering. Dogs don't have brains either. They don't have emotions. You don't need emotions to... Do dogs have emotions? Not complex emotions. I never asked. I never said you add something on and then you are. I said do dogs have emotions? Which kinds? Do they feel happy, sad, depressed? Do they... They don't feel depressed. Dogs don't feel depressed. No. OK. We're done here. This is hilarious. It's not an area. Dogs don't feel depressed. It's hilarious. You don't think a dog feels depressed? No, not really. OK. They've got instincts. What? No point. There's no point. If you can't agree... If you can't agree that a dog gets depressed or has emotions, there's no point. There's no point. You want to be interviewed? No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No.


You know it's better than a Lamborghini a real horse got real horsepower.  I agree. Goodbye city Knapped by the river. Can you hear it? That's the best sound Right here is where I want to build a house. Look at this house site That's the Appalachian Trail over there Now you never want to build on top of a hill completely because of the wind The views are beautiful. I want to build the house completely off the grid solar There's enough solar here. You got spring water on this farm some of it So that way if the world ends I have someplace to go you got enough enough woods here You can heat the house heat the water always look for a few things look for land that doesn't have too much rocks number one number two water Water water what really not water should be number one And then you also want to look for good building sites somewhat out of the wind You want to look for soil fertility? I did a soil test on this farm see that little moss that means it needs lime calcium But it's pretty good soil there That's what you want That right there Five six years even ten years have amazing wood People don't realize you have to cut trees down Not because you're trying to hurt the environment But because trees get old and die if you don't cut that down it doesn't let a new tree grow When I used to live in a mobile home big tree like that fell right through it Get a book out here Actually, no book just relax and think you get your non-gmo corn you grow yourself This field right here put into non-gmo corn for your chickens For milk cows, and then you put it back into grass alfalfa that GMO stuff. Nobody knows what it's gonna do That's why you want to eat grass-fed if you can because maybe there's no problem with GMO But do you want to take the risk with your body is the question you want to be the You know the FDA's guinea pig grow melons down in the bottom here and then you grow Because melons need the best soil usually the best soils at the bottom of the hill non-gmo corn You got heirloom tomatoes when I've done with this farm It'll have more trees than it started, but some areas here I'll put back in the pasture But some of the steep or soil areas they never should add cows on it They can't it doesn't grow grass and you just destroy it cows are heavy on the soil if I cut that those trees down That's about eight acres. I'm getting ready to put 30 acres back into trees So it'll still be a net gain of 22 acres good grass be build soil fertility faster than trees That's why the most fertile places in the world are not under trees It's the Midwest of the United States. You got to look at the aspects. This is north facing gets less less grass It also grows cold-weather plants. This is a cold-weather plant clover On the flip side, you'll see more grass. I want to show you what it means to Give sweat equity that if you don't have any money start with sweat equity meaning go work for somebody else use your time Energy to make them money. That's what I did I'm here at Joel Salton my first mentors farm and he said if you want to work for me You can live in this little cabin and it didn't have a toilet. We had a bucket So and it had no heat or no water. This was my bed right here I had bunk beds because sometimes there'd be another guy working and this was the toilet the bucket I bet you get still they changed the floor. There was a hole in the floor and the bucket was underneath Nice stand here, and I put a cup of water in it to drink and we'd sleep in sleeping bags And when I woke up it was always an ice. That's how you know it's cold in the morning You reach over it's like the whole thing goes to you can't start out at the top and start out at the bottom So the game goes the natural order of things if I say Thanksgiving starts early around here Takes a long time for it to be ready for Thanksgiving Just add water Look at their face now kind of cranky all the time I did soil test Joel's So versus his neighbors right over the fence and Joel's Way better Joel's farm is like almost twice the fertility by using Better farm practices can hardly walk I Even a lot of the eggs you see at Whole Foods where it says organic. Yes, they might be organic feed But they're still inside. They're not in grass They're caged up so they're not getting to eat bugs and they're not eating grass just like a human If you don't eat any salad, you're not healthy these chickens are getting fresh salad. They eat the grass They eat the bugs they scratch through there.  That's what you want This is all natural oyster shells from the ocean. That's how they get their calcium so they lay hard eggs The beef that you eat regularly is from cows that are sitting in a big manure lot eating corn Which is not natural for a cow the cows here were moved to a different pasture So rotational grazing look how nice that grass is So the best beef you can eat comes from rotationally grazed cows They're healthier less parasites They're getting better grass grass fed. I'm working on another brand cows on a pasture calm Now the pigs are about to be let out on pasture, but now they're building compost for Joel Joel calls it pig orator pork He puts corn in there in the core the pigs Kind of flip the soil over. I mean the compost over and aerate it for them They'll be out on pasture soon It's kind of cool. They love it and it doesn't smell bad because it's compost It's not that looks like it's manure, but it's not it's compost all you that are drinking protein powder wave protein stuff like that even egg protein. I'm thinking of doing a Pasture raise egg protein powder. It'll be the best. I'm serious that no one has ever done that before This is the kind of food you want to eat Pigs on pasture cows on pasture chickens on pasture not in factories not on concrete