Hi, ma'am. How's it going? Can you explain something to me? You charged me a diagnostic fee, but you didn't fix anything. The diagnostic fee. I'll tell you what guys, this is a big question that you're gonna have a lot of people ask. Let's go in to find out. Now that's the question that us as technicians and a lot of service writers hear quite often. And it's also one of the most controversial questions that there are in the independent and dealership atmospheres together is What kind of fees are gonna have to be charged for diagnostic times? Should they be charged? When should they be charged? How much should they be charged? That's what we're gonna cover in today's video. So scenario number one, customer comes in, they've got an electrical problem. My blower, it's not working all the time. It's working just when I hit bumps here and there and you know, just randomly it'll go in and out. So I need that one looked at. So at that point your service writer should, should be advising the customer on what kind of fees and what kind of diagnostic time they're gonna be looking at. The technician needs to bring the vehicle back. They need to verify the complaint. They need to diagnose what caused that complaint and then they need to get a quote on what it's gonna take to fix that complaint. They're gonna go through all of this, get that nice quote for you, and then put it forward and give that one to the customer. Customer then says, well, I don't know if I like the price on that one. I'm gonna have to go someplace else and I think I should get a second opinion, which is your prerogative.  Not a problem. I wouldn't recommend this on, you know, a lot of smaller things, but a lot of bigger things that could be severe or major fixes. That would be a good idea to get a couple of different opinions from different shops, especially when you're in the thousands of dollar range. But then the customer says, well, I don't feel like doing it right now. And then all of a sudden they get handed a bill for $90. Well, why did you charge me that $90? That was, you know, that you guys didn't fix anything. Why am I being charged this? Well, that's the whole point of diagnostic fees.  I don't work for free. You guys don't want to work for free. That needs to be explained to the customer that the technicians don't work for free. The dealership is not a nonprofit organization. They have to be able to diagnose your vehicle, find out what's wrong with it. They have to use all kinds of these fancy tools that we're going to see here in a minute as well to diagnose your vehicle. You have to explain that to them, and then you have to charge them a diagnostic fee. Now, for other reasons and independent places and dealerships, there are different circumstances to which they will charge those fees. A lot of the time some shops, especially independent shops, may try to incentivize people to keep their business with that shop for doing the diagnostics. Once the diagnostics are done, they may have the process there in their shop that says, if you end up doing the work, then we will either waive the diagnostic fee or we will cut it in half depending on if you have to put the vehicle back together or something along those lines. A lot of the independent shops are doing that right now just to say, you know, we're relevant and we're trying to keep your business here with us. And I totally get that one. But 95% of the time here at dealerships, their diagnostic fees are going to be put in with the quote and you're going to have to pay them.  Now, why is that? Because us as technicians have to own all these things like this. Now, I am going to reference this by saying that each technician does not need to own these tools, but having some of these makes the diagnostic process a whole lot easier. Us technicians, we've got to have meters, multimeters, test pins, inspection cameras, test lights, different tools, variations of tools to be able to take these vehicles apart. Specialty, electronic things, battery testers, all these specialty tools that us as technicians are required to have. And then there's other things such as scan tools. Not every place requires technicians to have their own scan tools, but some technicians would rather not wait to have to share one between, you know, multiple technicians in the shop. They would rather have their own. So we've all got our own versions of scan tools here and there to be able to do our own diagnostic testing on people's vehicles without having to wait for the shop ones. So us as technicians have to pay for all of these. And then the dealership has to own all different kinds of things for specialty tools as well. Like, for instance, over here in our dealership one, we've got our Zeus, we've got our dealer specific scan tools, our DRB3, TPMS programming for the dealership. We've got meters for our hybrid electric vehicles, you know, all of these specialty tools and not to mention the specialty tools like these then stored up here as the dealership has all of these specialty tools as well. Tools, tools, tools, more tools, specialty tools. The sad thing is, you know, out of these 3000 plus catalog specialty tools here that we have in our dealership, not mountain bikes. Those aren't special tools. All these cases, everything that's required through Chrysler to have for specialty tools for diagnosing and fixing these vehicles properly. The dealership has to purchase every single one of these. Now this is, you know, ranging anywhere from, you know, could be four or five hundred bucks for a case, could be a couple thousand dollars for a transmission testing case. They're very expensive tools. We've got specialty electronics, testing equipment for PCMs, ABS modules, seals, different gauges, different fuel pressure testing kits, just all kinds of kits galore. And most of them are going to be for that diagnostic procedure of these newer vehicles. Now I could go into specialty tools for just a really long time. There's AC machines, specialty flush machines, big old battery testers and tenders that we've got as well. They could go on and on. So in other words, it takes a lot of money to have all of these tools for diagnostics to properly diagnose vehicles. Between scoping and, you know, specialty diagnostic time, you've got to pull an intake to do a compression test. It also takes a lot of time. It's not like, oh, I can just plug in that scan tool right away and it's going to tell me a code and that's what I replace. Nope, that's what the guys at AutoZone do. That's not what we as technicians do. We actually diagnose vehicles and give proper diagnosis and quotes on what is going to take to fix your vehicle. If that's not the case, then you're not, you know, talking to an actual technician you're talking to a parts hanging code reader. There's a lot of those out there. Sorry to say, but the majority of the technicians, this is what actually has to go on for diagnosing and testing vehicles. Now the next question they may ask is, well, you guys are already in that area. So why do I need to pay the full fee for the diagnostic and for you guys to fix it? Now that is a good question and very relevant I might add as well. If for some reason like, okay, I had to pull the intake plenum off to do a check for the ignition coils or compression test of the motor, then one of the things that you might be able to do as a shop owner or as a foreman or as a service writer is discount that labor on the diagnostic for a bit because, okay, they might have to have that apart already to do the fix already that you're already there for. Now that's not always the case on our end. Most of the time I will get in there to do the diagnostics and then being in the Chrysler dealership world, parts are not always exactly readily available, especially when you have to use Mopar parts under warranty. So we're going to be waiting on parts for at least the day. Most of the people these days, they are running on single cars for a single person. So they don't have a spare one just hanging around. They have to have that one to be able to get home if it's not a major issue. So what do we have to do? We have to put the vehicle back together and then they're going to have to bring it back again.  So that's where the diagnostic fee will definitely be charged, at least here in the dealership. Like I said, the other independent shops and if you own your own shop, then that's going to be under your own discretion whether you want to charge the customer that amount for having to take it apart to Diag and then put it back together and take it apart again to do the final fix. The next question that a lot of technicians and other shop owners ask is that why would you charge the full price for the diagnostic? Now there are some incentives that a lot of shops try to give to getting people in. They might charge half of their normal hourly fee for diagnostics. They might try to roll it in with something else or they offer them incentives on, you know, on an oil change if they wanted to add that on as well. Some kind of incentive to offset that diagnostic fee. Now what if for some reason the vehicle comes in with multiple concerns?  Oh yeah, by the way, I've got a brake noise at like 60 miles an hour when I'm slowing down. Oh yeah, and when I try to open my back hatch, I hear this loud pop noise. Oh yeah, in my radio. Don't forget my radio. Whenever I try to make an outgoing call, sometimes it automatically hangs up on me for some reason. Well, all of these are different concerns in totally different areas of the vehicle. Also, that is going to be up to your specific shops prerogative on whether they want to charge separate diagnostic fees for separate diagnosing of those issues. If you have to move on to different areas of the vehicle, then obviously there's going to be more time in taking those things apart. And that's going to be kind of on a case by case basis. Now there are some shops like ours where we don't generally like to charge over the initial one hour of diagnostic time without prior consent from the customer. If we have to, you know, tear part of the dash apart to get to some place, we're going to have to get prior authorization from the customer to take this apart because, you know, we're going to be diving into this and to properly diagnose it. We've got to have more diagnostic time to get in, get to this module to be able to diagnose it properly or find a wiring issue, can bus communication issues. Those are going to be some of the worst ones that we as technicians have to deal with diagnosing because they're just, you know, elusive and they don't like to be found very often.  So when you're talking about multiple lines, that's going to be a case by case basis on whether you're going to charge those multiple diagnostic fees for those multiple issues. For you people on the customer side of things, I hope this was a little bit more enlightening for you guys to be able to understand what goes into having to diagnose vehicles, what kind of tools and things that are required, how much time goes into it. It's not a free process. It's not like we just have to hook up a scan tool and be able to boom, magically got what's wrong with your car right away. It was that easy. This isn't a magic crystal ball that I have sitting over here. This is a toolbox full of tools, diagnostics, things that help me get through the jobs and help me diagnose your vehicle the best possible way that we can. That is what we are ultimately trying to help people to understand and the biggest part is going to be the person-to-person interaction of that as well. If you go through all of this diagnostic process, it's all in vain if the service writer or person who is talking to that customer can't convey what you are trying to do. If they can't convey how much time it's going to take, what kind of process is going to go into fixing it or the kind of parts and tools that it's going to take as well. I always say that more information is better. Being able to tell these customers in a plain enough voice and being able to tell them in a plain enough manner to where they will understand that, not trying to make you feel dumb or anything, but just so you are assisted in understanding what goes on in the process. Well guys, that's about all I've got for you today. I really appreciate you guys tuning in.  We're going to put the link right up here. Make sure you guys go and check that one out. Myself and MrJRC54 have recently started a monthly subscription service for Toolheads, Toollovers, and in general, just people who love working with tools and on vehicles. Make sure you go check that one out. It's going to be something you guys are definitely going to want to see. I appreciate you guys stopping in. Thanks and you guys stay awesome.


Welcome to Reader Syndicate 3.0, the next evolution of the look into counterculture that is Kanna. My name is Matthew, owner of Riot Seeds, and this started as a one-man mission for Strain History and Breeding Science. Over time, it's evolved into something bigger, better, and more of a team effort. We will be joined by members of the Kanna Luminati and other friends throughout the seasons to hear their takes on grow techniques, breeding science, Strain History, and more. Our mission is to combat the narrative that corporate cannabis and seed posters are obfuscating for their own financial benefit. Welcome to the Underground. We are The Syndicate. Welcome to Breeder Syndicate. I'm Matthew, here with my co-host, Thousandfold. Today we have a really, really special show, special to me, special to all the forum members of the community from back in the day. We have everyone from the Kanna Cabana that made that place special, that built it up. And each one of these guys really brought something special to cannabis other than just the Cabana. So each has their own unique stories, how they came to it, and I'm so stoked. I'm honored. Thank you for doing this with us. It means a shitload to me as someone who grew up looking up to you guys. And with that, Thousand, take it away, bro. Yeah, you know, I feel very, very much like a guest here. I'm very remote from all of you, and especially remote from that time in cannabis. So yeah, I'm also just very grateful to be here. I thought we could kick it off with a little icebreaker. Maybe we do a roundtable. Each one of you tell us how did you get into forums, into the forums to begin with, as part of your growing, you know, journey. Maybe we can start with D-Man. Sure. I'm D-Man. I think everybody knows me as it's, knows the forums. I think I hit the forums, you know, like 1997 when Overgrow was still, I think it was called the Edge back then or something like that. And what a wild ride that was when you first get on the internet. And it was the coolest place ever, dude, like all these other people grow. That's when I just really started getting, growing weed indoors at that time, like 798. And finding that, dude, people were sharing genetics all over the place. So it's like, wow, this is cool. So that's where I kind of got started hanging out there and pretty rowdy place at the time. But it was definitely cool. Other like-minded people around and didn't know that existed, you know, especially on the internet, you know, which was all really new that, at least to me, I knew I'd be around for a while. Same here for sure. Why'd it mean to interrupt?  No, no, I'm done, dude. I discovered it basically after, I guess my dad gave me a hand-me-down computer around 1994 or so. And didn't really discover the online cannabis community till closer to 1990. Oh, help me out here, Darren. When did we, when were we and Howie? Late 90s, dude. It was late 90s. Yeah, yeah, pre-911 for sure, like a few years before 911. Okay, so I taught myself to grow all up before that without the internet. I had to go source underground books from shady little bookstores here and there, and finally piece together how hydroponics might actually work. Of course, I didn't have enough sense to go to the library, I guess. And then discovering the forums, that was like, oh, this was everything I needed. I can't believe I didn't have this trellis netting on my plants to hold them up. And here's a picture of what I need to do, and it's like, oh boy!  And they were. They still are. What do you got? Well, late 80s I moved to Colorado and could not find good pot here on my own. So thanks to my great wife, who was able to start growing on my own. I found the internet by looking for seeds. Yes. And two long, you know, after the late 90s, I started really looking for seeds. I came across Overgrow and Cannabis World and actually came across D-Man then, and became like his primary beta tester. And at the same time, I was beta testing from MOTA Rebel, had a great time because the genetics were coming to me from them and a few other folks up in Canada on the west side from where D-Man is, were sending me genetics as well. So I kind of became a, weirdly, I'm a very small scale grower, as most people get to know me, you know. But I ended up at one point holding genetics and supplying clones to, I don't know how many people, Steve, right? Between you and me, we sent stuff. Everywhere. Everywhere. Everywhere in the world. Possible. We tried to get stuff there.  With D. Well, Darren's a troublemaker. It comes naturally. I mean, packages made it to Hungary with clones, no problem. I couldn't get them past Canada. Canada's hard, bro. Canada's hardcore. Still, still hard to get clones over that border. Dude, I don't know how, but cushy man, that guy can get clones over the border. I don't know how he does it.  But I'll tell you, just to jump in here, of all the elite clones that you guys have heard about in the U.S., they went through these two guys' hands before they went to anybody. That's amazing. Yeah, Steve and Howie, dude, everything went through them. Everything. And that's kind of weird because, you know, we're older than everybody else. Well, we had to start out with seed, because we definitely didn't have clone connections. And then when we finally discovered the online community, it just opened up everything. And then you're just the kid in the candy store. Right. I think I bought my first seeds from Mark Emery way back in the day. Wow. And he sent me strains I didn't order, but that's a different story. Go figure. And I remember the way I met you, Steve. We were, you know, we were talking about, you know, how nice it would be if we each had different bud to smoke. And next thing we knew, we were trading through the mail, you know, all kinds of samples to each other. And you became my primary source for, oh, I want to try to grow that. Hell yeah. I think a lot of people remember skinny girls. Pretty much still to this day. Yeah. Got a bunch of new ones. Actually, the whole new batch I got in, most of those just flopped unfortunately. Are you running cookie stuff now? I am running some, some cookie strains. I've got the garlic cookies, which I really like. Got a bunch of other new stuff. Got this modified grapes, which I haven't thrown out, but how he has. He says it's very nice. Feedback. Yeah. I've got it. You can see this tiny little itty bitty bud. I can go get a bigger bud, but that's what I'm smoking. Smoking this little modified grapes right now. It's the size of a grape. It's actually, actually the buds are some sour diesel. They're really nice and dense. And the buds, the buds on the modified grapes are very reminiscent of the ice cream cake. Yeah. They look a lot like the ice cream cake, but when you smell them, you can tell they're definitely two different, different beasts. They look almost exactly alike growing. Could be twins. Aside from modern genetics, let's talk about what you guys were first seeing when you hit the scene. Of course, a lot of strains didn't have names at the time, but when you started seeing that, like Darren, what did you see?  Oh, it's real blueberry though. Yeah. Like, dude, seriously, the best blueberry, not knocked a DJ or anything, but was that Sangra Mathes, blueberry dude.  That was some really good stuff. And then, dude, for, for me, I think it's, you know, I think it's, you know, a lot of stuff. And then, dude, for, for me, it was like, I never really bought, you know, breeder seeds, like, really at all. I found Seabay through cannabis world, dude, and that's where I spent my money. Dude, there was like, and some of those guys, you know, like, never heard of before. Like most of them, you know, just, oh yeah. Dude, some of the best genetics ever came out of there for cheap, dude. You mentioned Motor Rebel, one of them. Motor Rebel, like, dude, Joey Weed, you know, like, that's where I got my start. There was the, the three, three seed, or the three seeds, a classic clone company. I actually forget who that was, but, dude, and, you know, Katsu's blueberry in his collection, like, that dude just, like, ruled, and he just bought everything, right? Yeah, he did. He's spent a lot. And dude, if I, I sold my own seeds at Seabay, and that would be the only way I bought seeds was some serious seeds. I would just, instead of taking cash from RC, I would just, like, send me seeds that he had on the board, right? And to say, from Arthur Blueberry, literally the only two breeder seeds I ever bought. Everything else was Seabay and traded straight up freebies, dude. That was what it was great back then. Like nobody really cared about money.  Like he was awesome. Awesome. Like that was what made the forums fun for me, dude. And like everybody wanted to talk. Like everybody was willing to share. Like we all had our little knowledge, like, you know, I had all kinds of outdoor experience before I had the indoor experience. So I liked to hang out there. And then it's like Steve said, it was like a kid in the cane store. Dude, it was awesome. And people were awesome. There was trolls, but for the most part, the first few years there, the first few years it was like, this is cool, dude.  It was awesome. And then dude, you could literally ship clones and seeds, no problem back then. Yeah. That was super easy. But after 9-11 and everything just slam shot. Well, back in the day, you could get a priority mail package in two days like it was supposed to and the clones would still be alive. What kind of stuff are you seeing, Skitty? Excuse me? What kind of stuff are you seeing when you first got online? Oh boy. Before I got any clones in the mail, I did buy some seeds and had some good ones. I had DJ Short. Hello? Not the blue bear. Can you hear me? Hello? Oh, Flo. Thank you. Yes.  But yes, I had the DJ Short flow. I had a DJ Short blueberry and I also had a blueberry that someone else had given me, which could have just been a mirror image of the DJ Short, but it was just real wonderful blueberry. I bought those legendary packs of Slider from Sagamanta and grew those out. That's where I found the Cherry Slider. Right. Legendary. Yes. I will regain that one day. Smoked it, never grew it. And then what else did I... Oh my God. Bog strains, if you remember Bog. Oh yeah. His boggle gum and... Sour bubble. Yeah. I don't think I had necessarily think I had the sour bubble. I may, I very well may have. This is a long time ago. Yeah. That's true. Not real. This is when I was down in New Orleans at the time. And... Did he have bog bubble at the time? He had something called member boggle gum. Yeah. Yeah. Actually, that was good. Bog's boggle gum. Dude, that was good. That was good. Yeah. And then I had the THC's boggle gum, or excuse me, THC's bubble gum as well. Yes. And I had THC's chocolate chunk, which I didn't really find any chocolate or any chunk about it. It was just one of those hit and miss sort of things. Didn't you do the Choco Deal too, those skitties? Yeah, it's true. That was way down the road after Santa Smoke had his trivia contest late one night at Cannabis World and gave out the packs of seeds. That's right. From the chocolate diesel. You're the original chocolate diesel guy. Yeah. I made one much later. And people would ask me if I was the chocolate diesel guy from Gorilla Glauze. That came before me. Yeah. There are two phenos out there. There's another Cannabis World alumni who's at the Cabana now, a knucklehead. And knucklehead found a separate phenome from what mine was. So there's a knucklehead phenome, and then there is the skitty phenome. Pretty sure mine was a bit more distributed than the knucklehead. All right. What did you see during those first years? What strange were you running into? Well, of course, I ran into D-Man. So I was beta testing a whole lot of his stuff. Same thing with Mota. So I saw a lot of those strains, but I ran into just different groups of people. We had lots of very kind people. So I had strains from Cabbage Man, 1969. Cabbage Man. I had strains from Stash. Just all kinds of stuff. I was seeing a lot of Aloha White widow crosses. Did you resume? I was seeing a lot of Black Widow G13 crosses. Thanks, folks. A lot of G13 Gorilla arm. Cool. I remember it. Yes. Back in the day, when we originally started here in Colorado, I also was able to source some Romulun and some of the Colorado Peabud, which back in the day, thinking about it, I really wish I knew how to clone and keep plants back then because there were some real cherry plants back in the day. We also saw a tremendous amount of Durban in Colorado in the late 80s, early 90s. Always a pleasure to grow. We even ended up getting our own cut. Somehow or other, Colorado has its own Durban cut. I think not sure who that's care of. Maybe Stacy Muir. Oh, maybe. Might have been instrumental in that. Another real nice guy. And then I was privy to helping these other two gentlemen run an auction for a gentleman in Australia named Rod Wall. Back in the day to help him get out of some troubles. So I was kind of the middleman for, I don't know, how many thousands of seeds that different members across the different forms donated to us so we could have an auction and send him some money. And so even today in my seed collection, I still hold some things that everybody gave me extras so I would have for me. I'm still holding seeds from back in the day from that auction. Got to find something to do with them. Yeah. Yeah.  Yes. Oh, yes. Good man. Good man. Did it right, bro. So when you mentioned someone from Australia, was that later to be Deman's buddy or a different person from that region? It was a different guy. Different guy. When we first got on cannabis world back in, you know, I got back on OG in 90, I think it was 99, but I didn't move over to cannabis world till 2000. That's where DNI started really connecting.  They were a lot of them were there for, you know, having stairway for seeds to get, you know, from, you know, Seabate. Yeah. And we, a lot of us, we all have things in common, you know, so you meet people different ways that we just had people from all over trading us stuff. We had guys in England. I remember the original UK cheese came to us. Is that by vision? From vision. Yeah. And, you know, when we all first saw pictures of it, we saw pictures of this white plant sitting out. Somebody's backyard in England was like, wow, what the heck is that? Is that covered in mold? I remember that very photo. That was wild. It was. And we had to have it. And, and, and vision made sure that a group of us got it. And God rest is so buckwheat. You know, it was in the early days buckwheat was heavily involved with us in, in making sure a large number of members got a variety of clones that we were being sent from, you know, Canada through a vision creator and thunder monkey. Yeah. He watches sometimes. And, you know, being in Canada vision, it was easy for vision to get me the UK cheese, right? Yeah, right. One goes to the next. That was easy. Like, and back then, you know, that was pretty sure pre 911 ish or right around there. Oh, yeah. It was still easy to get stuff across. And like I said, you know, how he was the repository for all the clones, dude, like everything went through him. And they went to everybody. I was all space and was able to pull it off. I had, I had two lights to grow, to grow my, my plants under.  It's still there. I don't use it anymore. Thanks. Thanks to skinny. I don't have to worry about moms anymore, which is great for me. But at one point I, I was holding 26 to 35 moms at any given time.  You were the holder of the strains. I would call it easy maintenance too, right? Like it's easy maintenance for the mom. Let other people come over and keep it from back forever.  And again, I had people passing through staying with me like, you know, skinny stayed with me when he moved out here. I had the doc to stay here for a while. Sorter, God rest his soul. When he first moved to Colorado, he stayed with me for a couple of weeks. You know, I've had a lot of people come and go and a lot of good people come and pass genetics. Sorter was another one who bred genetics kind of in the backyard secretly and everything that anybody else thought was worthy. He would try to breed F2s of. Yeah. And I also have in my repository some of his F2s from a number of years ago. A lot of those are almost all aloha white widow crosses. So. Very cool. Was that was that through Jojo's work that he was doing F2s of or someone else's like in CG. Yeah, he was doing someone else someone I forget who originally put out aloha white widow. I thought that was Jojo. Was it Jojo? Jojo. Yeah. Sorter had a lot of mental health issues. He was super obsessive compulsive and had paranoia. But for some reason that strain helped him get through his day. So, you know, he tried crossing it to all different kinds of things to see if he could get a better, more vigorous plant that would help him. Yeah. And in turn. He was one of those people who posted up on cannabis world, you know, only minorly, but all of his posts were like, oh, I just made these crosses and these crosses if anybody wants them. Yeah. And he was constantly sending out seeds to people. I still still making the rounds. A few people I know who still grow. He had an aloha white widow. Crystal locomotive? No. No, it was. It might have been a train wreck. Oh, yeah. That was a one. Yeah. And I think he had that cross and I think he passed that around a lot. Yes. Again, everybody was trying to do their part to make sure everyone in the community had what they needed. Yeah. His is the biggest, most famous one to this day. A lot of people that know is the grape stomper clone came by Jojo and it was renamed and stuff, but that's where it came from. So it's cool to still see it move around. Jojo had some great, great strains. He had never, he had came out with a candy haze and some other haze was the bloat. I thought Blowfish was Dutch flowers. He did a lot with Dutch flowers. I've never been able to unravel it though. Like he did Blowfish F2s, but he also sold seeds to RC that I think were sold as Dutch flowers, but I don't even know who Dutch flowers was. Dude, dude, you're on the great track there, Matt. I honestly think that Dutch flowers was RC. That's what reefer man told me. He said that he was. I can't confirm that with Dutch fly hunch, dude, because, you know, deal with RC a lot, right? Because, you know, we're getting paid and stuff with them. Their writing styles were very similar, dude, very similar. I've had some emails that were like, wow, dude, just the way they word things, right? Great copywriting descriptions, right? Yeah, dude. The best description, right? Yeah. And so speaking of Jojo, dude, like such great strains, probably nothing went over like 30, 35 bucks, 40 bucks. Absolutely.  Oh, yeah, dude. And it wasn't about the money back then. It really wasn't. It was all about, yeah, it was kind of cool to, you know, get a few bucks, you know, because it wasn't a lot of money, but it was just collecting.  Just ask Katsu, right? Yeah. You know, he's got one of the biggest baseball card collections I've ever seen. Oh, you remember D-Man, remember Academy? Yeah, dude, yeah, that guy, yeah. He bought everything. Fastest bidder on CW there was. He was a sniper, dude.  Yeah, you couldn't win a pack from him if he wanted it. Absolutely, dude. He would snipe you right to the end. Man, after my own part. I just wanted to say, you know, like I'm really enjoying just being a fly on the wall for this conversation, but it sounds like just such a radically different time to where we are right now. Dude, it was. It was so different. It was, you know, I'm not going to say there wasn't snakes, but we weren't privy to them. I'm sure like some of the guys that were really, you know, running the hard traps and out in California that were, you know, really facing hard time if they got caught, you know, those guys. Yeah, you could see where they were, you know, a little closer to the vest. They wouldn't share as much, but it's slowly, even those guys started coming out when it's seen, you know, I remember that. What was that guy with the black, the blackberry guy? Oh, so much. Yeah. Dude, like those guys, like, you know, at first, dude, that guy showed some pictures, blew everybody away. Oh yeah.  The gentile weed, bro. Yeah. And he would just wouldn't say anything, but then slowly even he would come out, right? So, but for the most part, there was, there was no sketchiness. No one was trying to get a leg up on anybody. It was like, dude, it's like, you know, how he said, we just wanted to make sure everybody got a taste of everything that was going around and get it to wherever we could. I do. I do remember when I first got my first clones in the mail, I think it was towel that sent them. And I got the sour diesel, the Bubba kush, trainwreck or Tega. Help me out here, guys. Wasn't there two more? Wasn't it like the holy grail of seven strains at the time? Well, I don't know about your end, but dude, this was cats. You sent me all my gear that I had that I was breathing with. And that was maybe part of the seven strains at the Bubba kush. East Coast sour diesel trainwreck. I had the A 11, the genius cut. I think I had the chocolate diesel. Was C 99 out yet? Yeah, I had the C 99. I had, and that was, I believe 180s cuts. And that was the most prominent good cut at the time. I probably still is to this day. And dude, it was so cool. This is how cool it was. So cats is in the states, southern state. Not gonna say which one.   Rooted clones, dude, by a UPS, dude. We never had that look. Try that next time. Well, we never tried UPS. I guess that's true. Three years later, I called them all when heaven's stairway got busted because I figured you're coming for us, right? So lost it all. But that's how easy it was back then. And nobody cared. It was like nobody, everybody was looking for the Holy Grail, but everyone wanted to get it around. Find everything to get as many people looking for it as possible with many strains pop in billions of seeds. Everybody was from CB. Oh, yeah. It was just a wild, fun time. And then it got ruined. Right? It was a real small crowd at the time. Well, yeah, there was there was different people in a group. And depending upon which segment of a group you were in, you might get the clones before, you know, I might get them before D would get them or before Skitty would get them. But everybody knew I was going to give them to Skitty or vice versa. Well, we had guys like Waisos, you know, who was sharing genetics kind of really as secretively as possible.  I was good friends with, you know, I feel like I made a connection with like CTG. I was getting a bunch of stuff from him. Great reader, dude. Great reader. Yeah.  Between good gear and his brother, MEDKIND, we get a lot of our gear from them to even today.  I opened my home and had parties with, you know, upwards of 30 people on 420. And I didn't always know everybody who showed up at my house, you know. But we all had a good time. We all made good friends. That's how we met Kirby. Dude, I flew in from Canada for those parties.  They were better than the ones we had in Canada. Yep.  How did N-C-G-A? He's been good to me too over the years. Yeah. I was actually just texting with Elky last night about his Detroit Red Wings. Nice. Yeah. We had, we just had, we had great people, you know, every single one of them. Chip Baker, you know. Oh, yeah. Ed Larkas, TC.  You know, it was good times and safe times pre the COVID stuff. That's for sure. Yeah. So with our group and our group that we have going on right now, we really tended to model a lot of what your guys' parties were about, how that all worked with clones, and bring that into the modern era. So hopefully we do it some justice a little bit, but it sounds like it was a frickin' amazing time to be alive, a little jealous, but I'm stoked also to hear about it from your guys' eyes. Like, was there any memorable moments during any of those parties you could think of where someone was, you know, kind of wild? Absolutely, dude. I was at Howie's at one of those parties, and the first time I met Kirby, and that was the first time Kirby gave me my first dab ever. It was the first time I ever did a shotter. I think that was in like, I'm going to say, that was at least 10 years ago now, like 2014 or something. I don't know. It was a really nice day, like I remember that. Kirby was way ahead of the pack. He was. He was.  I haven't looked back since then, dude.  Dude, I smoke more dabs than I ever do. Oh, I had to stop. Unfortunately. I didn't do. I did too. I got sick after a while. No dabs. It's COPD knocking at the door. No dabs. Small one that's... Hash line. Bubble fine. There's something about those dabs. No thank you. Yeah. Well, I mean, memorable for me about parties, of course, is, I mean, all the people who I met including some who are no longer with us like Zoch. You know, Matt. And Sorter and, you know, a nice, we still have a lot of good friends. Our friend Bud Spleiffman came to a lot of the parties. We're still friends with, you know, Kirby because of the parties and green mofo. And one of the funny stories about one of the parties, the first party Kirby came to, he bought a brand new dab rig. It was over a $200 dab rig. He got one hit out of it. And then he dropped it on my concrete patio. We laugh about it. Now it was kind of a stinging memory. And he always joked about it. He never once got upset.  But didn't Kirby have a whole dab case? He did. Specialized briefcase with all different folded party papers. We call those trap trophies. Yeah. And then when it became unfashionable to use the torch, if you remember, he not only brought the case with the dab rig, but he brought like the battery to heat everything up. He brought the whole set up. It was like mobile dabs. Yeah. Yeah. He had quite the set up. And he was the first person I ever met who was making the giant bazooka tubes to blow hash. It was kind of a cool thing. He was doing it at scale. When I first met him, he was the dab man at scale in Colorado. Dude, he was the guy who was buying the giant tubs and fucking, you know, he went to the supplier or something and the supplier is like, dude, we can order that in for him. He's like, yeah, order me as much as you can get. What are you using it for? Oh, it's a science project or something. Science. Yeah. Science. So one of the most well-known things with UD man is the Spice Brothers era. And it was you and a person named Fett. Can you talk a little bit about how that came to be? Sure. Actually, Fett was, he was in Australia. Just a wild bet for sure. Yeah. We just hit it off because he was a big indoor grower in Australia, which you think, when you think of Australia, you don't really think indoor grower. You think more like outdoor, right? But not to say he didn't do outdoor, but I don't think the, you know, the ground in most of Australia is indicative of doing outdoor grows. Like you really need to like, you know, like an auger to dig the ground. It's just so hard. You need to condition everything. So dude, he was doing indoor stuff and how life stumbled onto him.  Oh, I remember those. Right.  Like I've never seen anything. Well, those are the ones, those are ones where they are actually putting down into the plants, like not over them. They were down inside with water tubes. Yeah.  Anyways, we just started talking and we just started trading some strange again. It was all free. He's like, hey, maybe I got something right here. He's like, what do you got? What do you grow in Canada? I send him some stuff. And next thing you know, it was like, he started breeding some of my stuff. I started breeding some of his stuff. And we're like, it's a good collab. Let's put it together. And we did a few, just our own things. And that's right around, you know, the time that just about a year, maybe two years before heaven's stairway went down. And brother's grim went out of business. Wow. They stopped selling seeds on heaven's stairway. Yeah. Right away, right?  Like they were top of the line. That was big bucks back then, right? And not everybody could obviously afford that. So when they stopped selling seeds, and I knew that because again, my close relationship with RC at the time. And so we reached out to Mr. Joel at the time and said, dude, do you mind if we, you know, knock off some of your strains, make some F2s and send them out on the sea bay for everybody. If I can get, you know, a chance for your genetics. And he gave us permission to do that. And dude, that's basically what we did. And that's how we started space brothers was just basically knocking off everything brother's grim. Right. And dude, that did some really crazy things over there. Again, once I got the A11 from Katzoo, that was really helpful. A bunch of the genius crosses. Genius. Wonderful. Oh, absolutely. And did the, all the green giant and was that. Did he have the Vietnamese black stuff too? Yes. So he was one of the ones, him and cushy man are the only two that I know personally that actually got the anonymous Vietnamese black. Yeah. Dude, he crossed that Vietnamese black with legit Neville's haze. Yeah. Yeah. Oh, dude. And I never smoked it, but I seen pictures of it. And I talked to people that did smoke it. It was like, wow, like trippy sativa is like, and that was that skig. Was that 303 sativa guy? What did you call that one? 303 spice or something weird? It was 303 spice. Yeah. Oh my God.  And then he got into that. Easy. The Lou Haan one too. Yeah. He crossed that with the Neville haze. Again, he loved the sativas. I guess Australia is a good, good place to do the sativas outdoors if you can find the suitable soil to do it. Then we just once heaven stairway went down, he went over to that. What is that UK place? Because at the same time as heaven stairway was getting busted, seeds in the UK became legal. Do you know gypsy? Do you know gypsy? No, no. The other guy docked something. Oh, doctor. Dr. Green thumb. Dr. Green thumb. No, no, no, no, no. He's in Canada here. That's a Canadian guy. He was selling seeds over in the UK. So that's where. Farad and I ended up. Our relationship ended there, right? So like, there's literally, I shut down everything right after heaven stairway went down. So. So there's a lot of people. But I said, I sent all my stock to, to dock chronic that was anything. Slice brother related and. That and I just split it up after that.  I wish I could find that guy. I have reached out. I can't find anybody that knows him. The last thing I did here is that he got bit by a black type. Jesus. And I think that's pretty, pretty rough snake in Australia. And I, he made it, but I think he got pretty fucked up from that. Who is this? Oh, okay. Oh, okay. So yeah, I don't know what happened to him, dude. I've had people reach out to me over the years, asking where he is. And I'm like, dude, if you find him, let me know and hell him on looking for him. Like, yeah, I would love to reach out and get a hold of him again. Right. You remember his strain? Dizzy the Aussie. Yeah. Yeah. Definitely not. Hi. Yeah. Definitely not. Yeah. Dizzy was the, the weird, totally. I don't look like weed weed. Right. Yeah. They're not ABC. Not ABC. Right. It's not ABC. It's not. Never. Never release it. Dude. He would never even send me any seeds.  I wonder why, why he held it so tight. I don't know. I know Hyde worked on it too, or something similar, maybe not ABC. Maybe not the same. Yeah. But again, you know, I, and now I know that inspectors working with it. Like he's got some crosses of it out there. So, you know, I think it's very interesting. I'd love to grow some. Right. I think it's cool looking, you know, like, I'll get you some. I don't know. I don't know what it smokes like, but it's interesting. Yeah. That's the spice brothers thing, dude. It was a good relationship. And we had a lot of fun. We had a lot of fun. That's one of those things like whatever I would find, even today, when I see spice brother seeds, I get really stoked and try to get them from whoever has them. They're like, that's a very plunge spot in my heart. You know, when I see spice brothers, that's special to me. Absolutely. I'd love to get some. Actually, I have a couple of packs here. I'm not sure what they are. Somebody sent them to me with some original D-man seeds in the original heaven stairway pack too. Actually, I just sent the G Blackwood or the cushy man, because he's nothing for that. The vomit female again. You also did endless sky work, right? Yeah. Yeah. I helped develop that with Doc Greenfield. That's right. Yeah. Tell me more about it. It's an Iranian Indica crossed with a strain of his called grenadine, which is a G13 cross. Yeah. Not sure which G13, age G13. He had very few seeds of it. He was building a house and he sent me, I don't know. I don't know. A couple of dozen seeds. I worked through them and made some F2s for him and sent him back like a couple thousand seeds. And that was my part with it. And he ran with it from there and made his own selections. And I actually sent him the mom back with the seeds that I had found. Wow. Cool guy. He's still in business now. He's doing lots of good stuff up here, dude. One of the earliest feminized seed sellers that I remember that was in North America. Right up there with the classic clone company from Sea Bay. Who they were, but they were the first ones to get a hold. And that was, I think it was high, again, selling his, whatever it was. Yeah. We tried it, the EXE. It worked on a couple of strains and a couple it wouldn't. Yeah. That's what people don't realize with reversals. It's not all inclusive. No matter what spray you're using, no matter what type, it really is dependent on the health of the plant, the type of plant, the genetics of the plant, and how it reverses. Absolutely. I just found, I don't know if you could see these. Yeah. I can see those. What you got. That is a JoJo candy haze. And this is something by Barefoot Alpha Cush. It looks like Alpha Cush F 2000. And I don't know. I still have some crystal locomotive to do the JoJo did. Nice. I'll tell you, that was a good strain. Yeah, it was. It was a very good strain. So were his strain rec S ones. I love those. Yeah. He did killer stuff way, way ahead of his time. He was. I honestly think that, and this is my opinion, I honestly think a lot of the Cush phenos that are going around now all came from C. They do those first feminized public crosses. Yeah. That's when all of a sudden that you started, you know, seeing that cats, you found a, a cats you one. And then there was ghost found one. And then there was the abusive and. Oh, the. Great. Right. And they all just kind of came around the same time that that first. Feminized Bubba Cush cross came out. It just, it makes. It does make a lot of sense. Kind of. Right. But whether they are or not, I don't know. It's just funny that they were everywhere and there's so many different phenos. And it's like, well, we all know that it's really hard to get an identical, you know, from the mall. Absolutely. Right. You can, but it's there. So, but there's close to different nuances. And I think that's my personal opinion. That's a lot of stories. The story goes is that the Bubba Cush seeds that went out were half OG Cush and half of a plant called Bubba that was an order lights plant. So like no lights, OG Cush. You cross them, you're going to get OG Cush expressions, even in the S one. You know what I mean? Absolutely. And they may not be identical to that moment. Exactly. But they're close. Yeah. It's right. It's like any S one, right? Like. You get it. Recessive pop out. Yeah. Howie, you mentioned Peabud earlier was did you ever hear of it referred to by any other name? Well, no, I got to Colorado. I lived in Wyoming for a number of years before I came to Colorado. By the time I got here, it was the Colorado pay on your bud, the Peabud. If you were lucky, you knew somebody in that specific area or somebody, you know, local who knew somebody. And you could get it, you know, pretty handily back in the day. And the clones were held really tightly by the group in the valley was not something that was readily shared with outsiders. At one point I had the clone. But it was before I had a medical debacle back before I met most everybody. And I lost pretty much everything I had after that and could not get it back. I am a really hopeful CTG who had was originally from Colorado who's now working with some Peabud that he got from I'm hoping that he gets the gets it. He's saying it's going in the right direction. So I have really good faith in him as far as his breathing and abilities go. So it was it was called the pay on your paralyzer. There you go. Yeah, it had a couple of other, you know, snazzy names depending upon where you were. I happen to I happen to live in the Denver area. But if you went up north to like Fort Collins where CSU is everybody referred to it as the paralyzer. Everybody knew it was the same bud and you just couldn't get the piney taste out of your mouth. It was that really big, beautiful, heavy smoke. That's perfect for a, you know, nice Colorado night sitting out under the stars or under a campfire.  And I didn't know who Muir was at the time. Like I wasn't from your guys' era. I just thought he was some guy on Facebook that people was kind of old school. It's like, hey, I have some Netherland purple indica, but I'm pretty sure this is the, I think he said pay on a purple paralyzer. He gave me the seeds of it. And I was like, oh, maybe I should give these to Peabud because he called himself Peabud. So he's looking for it. I've regretted that ever since. Like I want to see in those things. I actually gave to my friend Matt Elite to give to Peabud. And I think they stayed with Matt for whatever reason. So they may be coming back. So I'm pretty stoked about that. See if we can get it back. Yeah, thumbs up there. I'll tell you what, you know, and like he said, yeah, it may not be a perfect expression of what it was, but it's just like, it's just like anything. It's, you know, SGP. It's still good pot. Right. We were joking about that, you know, with the East Coast sourdough, which we got back, you know, not that long ago. And a whole lot of people were like, oh, it kind of grows funky. It doesn't have really tight nugs.  Don't evaluate it based on the fact that the name is from a 20 year old strain. Like evaluate it based on what it does for you. You know, I mean, it's still as good today. As it was 20 years ago when we first got our hands off. That's what's up, Skitty. Thank you, Skitty, thank you. Someone identified it as the 96 cut to me. If that man rings any bells. There's so many different cuts people talk about now. Like they've named so many. I mean, I think there's only a few cuts back in the day that people had and now there's like 90 thanks to the different seed lines and whatnot and people making claims. But yeah, the one, the one name that I do hear attached to that a lot is Muir. His name. Yep, I've heard. He was passing it with the 77 crew. That's whatever. Yeah. So were any of you guys in the 77 crew? I was not. No, no, but I mean, I'm good friends with, you know, several people who, who definitely were, you know, we were really good friends. Skitty and I and D main even knew him. We were good friends with Scouche. Yeah. Who was a key member of the 77.  Yeah, yeah. Yeah, exactly. We were part of the kids to be part of that club yet. Yeah. Back at, back at that time, we weren't the cool kids. Well, it was a different time.  It was like private sites started popping up everywhere.  Nobody was going to jail in Canada, right? For growing weed ever.  But in the States, dude, like, yeah, I was growing in Louisiana, you know, ended up at Angola. Yeah. But you were also, you were also one of, you know, you also were immediately like, okay, I can open a private site and you did. And like you salvaged, right? You salvaged how many of us like right away from that core group of, you know, CWOG people that we've been interacting with already for a number of years.  Yeah, I do. I don't know. Yeah. And remember, remember all the, you know, remember all the people that were there. We are necessarily in total contact with every day now. But I mean, we had, you know, Bud Mizer and we had, you know, Moonshine and Dr.   Was this how the refuge of overgrowth, this how essentially the, as we're getting into this, the Raccoon Lodge into the Canakabana started then? Yeah. We were in TCB first, wasn't that, and then TCB with Clips and C.G. and Bunky Nugs running. And when they discontinued, that's when I think y'all said, Steve, open up a Raccoon Lodge or something like that. Incorporated everybody from there into the Raccoon Lodge. And I think at that time, that's when Cannabis World where we were all mostly hanging out, it was starting to get crazy. Like, you know, there was the trolls from Overgrow were starting to, you know, migrate over to, you know, I think there was a shark tank at Cannabis World too. Just started getting messy and it was like, you know, that's when the sharing was, became a lot more private and where the private sites came in much handier. Right. Like you didn't want to really broadcast so much then. Exactly.  A lot of people started to hoard strains. Absolutely. Right. Well, you know, Well, and again, depending upon your perspective, because I remember at one of the big parties in California, when, you know, I first met, you know, Inspector, and, you know, he was explaining to me how he was a third-generation grower and that some of the strains were in his family from his grandfather's time and that he had made a family commitment not to share them at that time until he, you know, till, you know, he had an agreement with his father and grandfather that, you know, there would come a point where he would share them, but it wasn't then. And he was trying to explain to me that, so does it make me, you know, a greedy person if I can't share something that I promised my father and grandfather I wouldn't share? No, dude, it doesn't. You know, I hold the man, he's a really great, great guy and I really love him for his principles. He was very firm in what he could and couldn't share and, you know, he developed that into a huge, you know, situation like he's got going on now and, you know, God bless him. He, you know, he didn't portray his family. He didn't portray his morals and he was able to do it, you know. He's still that way. And now he's sharing those genetics. Yeah, but he's still very, very, very hard-line honest. Probably one of the biggest influences in my life on what I'd model my character and how I carry myself. He is the most honest person. I know it's crazy. I've seen people accidentally, you know, send him $14,000 and him return it because they didn't put, you know, what they wanted and he doesn't want to give them the wrong thing. And it's crazy what I'm seeing him do. Yeah. And the guy, it's just a walking book of knowledge. You know, like when I, when I met him in California at one of the parties there, it was like duty was so much younger than everybody else too, right? It was like, and, you know, we're all doing sampling these strains, you know, trying to go through 32 strains in like two days or something at the Cannabis World Cup and here's the inspector over there, just like a college kid taking an exam, right?  Those were really fun times.  And those parties were just walking books of knowledge. It didn't matter what situation you were in.   It was just a full spectrum, but they included, you know, inspector, Shaba, the doctor, Rosarifo, and CGA, D-man, you know. The overtokes, yeah. And the overtokes, Kendo, you know.  He's a wild man. He is a wild man. You know, I spent a week with him up on one of his, you know, grows when he was still down in Cali out in the Boonies and it was a crazy time. He's a super crazy, crazy guy. We had an episode with him. Yeah, we know. Yeah, he's seen it. Yeah, we watched.  I don't know whose idea it was. If he says it was his, he's probably right and kudos to him for thinking about it. The only thing I'll say about that, it was it was shitty for me because all the mods were hidden, but it was me that always had to go deliver the bad news or deliver the punishment, right?  The big banana or the rock lobster or something, right? Comes in rowdy nudie you know, whatever.  Well, okay, whatever.  That's how it goes. It's how it goes. Kendo was a big part of the commander dude, like getting the commander up and running for sure dude. Yeah, definitely. Same thing with Old Sog. Absolutely dude, absolutely. Same thing with Moggles, God rest his soul. Moggles, buckwheat. Buckwheat, you know. There was a couple other ones in there too that just Shout out to Funky Nugs. Funky Nugs too, yeah, right? Funky Nugs, yes. J.J. Jameson. Yeah, J.J. Jameson. J.J. Jameson who's still around and peeks in that one again. But you know, we don't hear from them much. But yeah, we've, you know to this day, we still see you know, people pop in and out from 20 years ago and it's nice to know that some folks are still rocking it hard. Got good, good breeders like Jace the Case are still out there. Stash still out there working hard. Yeah, I think Jace, he's a New Zealand fellow too, right? Yes, yes. Oh, interesting. He actually popped in recently since the reborn of the rebirth of the cabana, I think. Yeah, I saw that. He's still around. So in terms of timeline when was the original kind of inception of the cabana? December the second in six. My birthday. Wow. It was right as I was coming online. That's how I remember it. Yeah, when Cannabis World went down, we went over to the Raccoon Lodge. Skitty hosted us there and we sort of just reached out to some members at the Raccoon Lodge who we thought would be a good fit, you know, like muggles and, you know, old Sog and, you know, Buckweed Howie and obviously everybody Budweiser We had a bunch of people help us in the beginning. Absolutely. And then we just banged it out over five months there, you know, we were just racking ideas off each other's head, what would work, but wouldn't work. That's where we kind of realized, you know, we didn't want a Shark Tank. No, no politics. No politics. We obviously thought that, you know, firearms wasn't a good fit and we were we were unique like that. Absolutely. I think from some of the other sites. Absolutely. And I think a lot of people didn't like us like that. We were known as the Care Bears. I mean it stood the test of time though, like doing it a certain way, keeping it a certain way, keeping it private all those years letting certain people in sounds like you did it like an onion where there are layers and you involve certain people in fit better and molded better. Yeah, absolutely. And when we first opened it, you know, it was sort of like if I'm not mistaken, these guys can correct me. It was sort of like we left the threads open. Somebody would nominate somebody in and they were kind of like get a vote on it. And then we started realizing that that's not really fair, you know, everybody sort of deserves a second chance if a member, a current member is vouching for them. Well, they're putting their account on the line. We felt that was good enough. So we just started locking those threads for nominations. Somebody wanted you in. Dude, you were in. It was simple as that. And it worked good that way for a long time. We had a lot of participation and then when Colorado went legal, then a lot of people came in from Colorado like so it was just like a boom. That's when Kirby and, you know, Green Mofo and all those guys even. Correct. Big sir. It was just we had an influx of members there. Is that when Tierra Rojo got into came in. Paco came in for a while. Everybody came in for a little while, especially anybody who was friends with Kirby. Yeah, when Kirby came in, just a whole influx of guys in his kind of little core group at that time came in with him. And, um, you know, a lot of them have always been members. Some have just popped back and Paco popped back in not that long go as well. Yeah. I think it's great to see just the fact that there's a renewed interest. We were, you know, we were on. I was the last captain of the ship. These two guys ahead of me led the place for a lot of years and had everything going pretty good. But, you know, as people age and attrition and we don't have as many older members meeting new people to invite in. We became kind of the road to, you know, self-defeating prophecy where, you know, I was, you know, I was asking people for donations and looking at the thing as a dinosaur, like, when do we go extinct when we run out of donations? Yeah. The key to me is kind of like what do I do to help lead the ship into a new era and you know, that's where curbs comes in, you know, the line on the story, you know. When did you guys start talking about doing that with Curb? About maybe changing hands? He approached me in all honesty to my two friends sitting here. In all honesty, Kirby approached me last year, last summer, early in the summer. Steve was having an off season. Darren was in the hospital. I kind of hinted something to Darren about it way back then and he seemed really amenable to potentially letting Kirby, you know, take over. But Steve's situation was such that he and I weren't able to actually communicate out, you know, what Kirby wanted to do. So I kind of kept it in the back of my head and I literally said to Kirby, you know, give me some time, let Darren get out of the hospital, let Steve get through his stuff. Everything magically worked itself out and Kirby actually called me that week and said, hey, don't talk to those guys anymore. And they go, no, but I will right now.  I hung up phone with them called D. That was actually on Friday. Yup. And then called Kirby back and said, dude, you're the man. It'll save us from going extinct. I really like the concept we've always worried, you know, as we've gotten older, things have become more legal. When Darren originally took this thing on under his belt, he had to worry about Canadian laws, Canadian police. I was living here in Colorado where things were always fairly mellow. Steve who was bouncing from Louisiana to New York and then eventually ended up here thanks to coaxing from my family and I got him out to a good place. A place we knew he'd be able to establish. Here we all are two years later. The site's still running itself just fine. When I took it over, it was still running itself just fine. I'm wrong with the site except that as older members pass and we've lost a lot of good people as people's situations change and they leave and don't come back, you've got a handful of guys who are between 40 and 80 years old we're not bringing on any new blood. Can I interrupt and ask what did you guys think of Instagram when it was coming online? I don't even know when that was now. How aware of Instagram were you guys when it was emerging? When did you guys look at it and think this is the new form that people are communicating in? If it weren't for Darren and Steve talking to me about Instagram, I'm the least technologically inclined of the group Darren starts telling me you don't have to go to I see you you want to look at poppics, you just have to go to this new thing I'm like new thing most people just post pictures and there's thousands and I like fishing you can go and look at thousands of fishing pictures I'm like, really? You can go and look at thousands of pot pictures I'm like, oh, really? Fishing head pot, exactly Now you got me interested Yeah, it was really D and Steve who got me to even understand that there was something out there doing that kind of stuff Well, I actually joined Instagram in 2015, I'm not sure when it came out. The only reason I joined is because I had a young daughter at the time How old would she be then?  Who are these people following my little girl, right?   So for me, it was 2015 and yeah, I just never really looked back It was kind of cool because we had such old D bulletin software the cabana, it was like really hard to post pictures because it really sucked right? It was hard, right? So it was like, Instagram was easy so I seen right away, dude once I seen that dude, there's like thousands of cannabis accounts there, I was like wow, this is the new trend okay, I think the forums are gonna go really bye-bye now, right? Monthly, I don't think that happened, dude it turned out, obviously as we all know it sucks yeah, I would love to hear your thoughts on that as well I've got 6,000 followers on Instagram and anytime I make a post 10 people like it it's like dude, I'm not even a big guy it just says I sell cannabis seeds or I breed cannabis seeds and that's enough Instagram algorithm says no, fuck you dude, nobody sees you not even your followers it sucks, dude and I see all these big accounts like CSI he's got a quarter of a million followers and he's got like five accounts and they all have the same because they're all backup accounts because one gets banned or shut down it's a time sucked dude, it's really bad and that's when Kurt came in and said dude, let's make the forms relevant again you can post pictures on the form it doesn't really it was never about pictures for the rebranding or the rebirth it was just about the comments making it more relevant for the communication of the plant on Instagram you can't do that so I'll interrupt here and just say that one thing we've discussed in the past is like how kind of going back to some of the early points you guys made, how well connected you all were and how meaningful those connections were one thing about Instagram is obviously everyone's quite alienated and quite isolated and you have these very brief interactions with people on a post and then the next day it's gone it's not gone but you're going to have to go find in the abyss of the timeline and so you don't really have that kind of accumulation of history as you would on a form thread or even the interaction from the original poster, whoever posts that awesome pic they can post their little description of what this is but it's not indicative of having a conversation or even asking a question it's like we need to help desks again, we need these breeders to have their own forms where they can communicate with their customers and it's just like if you look at the now just about every breeder that has their own form there they've been an original member either from inception or from the Colorado influx of 2012 and some of these guys are fucking huge breeders like so as we all know and that's what they need if we can get content there and get their customers to come and interact with them we know they're busy people but even like he's chiming in, people are posting stuff about his trades and that's what we wanted we wanted a place for the breeders to be able to talk to the customers and answer some questions like it used to be like get away from the Instagram, yeah you can post the pretty pictures there but we know that when Inspector posts a pic dude it's not hitting a quarter of a million followers if he hits 1% maybe 2% whereas I'm not being naive saying that we're going to replace Instagram but it's not about the pictures it's about the interaction and about even the smaller guys like these up and coming breeders that's who we really want to help give them a platform that Instagram can't do these guys are just a shadow band just because they're posting cannabis pictures well come over to the cabana Kirby's giving it a fucking free reign dude, post your seeds post your grows we're going to eventually hopefully have a maybe sort of like a sea bay kind of platform that would be cool for up and coming breeders again to get a name absolutely just to make it really clear to the people listening and watching the can of cabana is now open again just to be really clear we haven't actually said that there's no inviting people to go check it out it went public 100% on January 1st dude please register it's wide open, you can look at the forum now you can see the 18 years of history that's there from everything that has been posted lots of skitty pics skitty grows, I'm sure there's a few howie grows there, lots of d-man grows but if you want to post you got to register it's not a hard ask you can read it, it's there for you to read we hope that you see something that entices you to make you want to join because there's up and coming things there's things that are coming probably some giveaways we're going to have some cabana packs things like that with some seeds maybe from some up and coming breeders we just want to see people posting their grows and we can help because we still know lots of people are still just new growers right now, we're seeing it in the cabana people are saying I've just got two or three grows under my belt, this is kind of cool we forgot about that we all got so tired of answering the same old questions over and over again that we forget dude we have to pass this knowledge on we can't we can't just not we can't rely on other people just to do it for us they're probably more new growers now than ever before definitely and they have so many more tools than we have LED lights all the cool toys to have so everybody knows Kirby was supposed to be here but he got stuck in an airport episode with him we got to get Kirby here because we can give you the whole history of how we got to the cabana but it's Kirby's idea and his baby from here dude and he's got big plans and he's going to make forums relevant again we're not going to say we're going after other forums but dude we're going after other forums the ones that were there I don't have any good relationship with them honestly my whole my whole relationship with that was I would go to a forum it was usually run by someone who ran a seed bank they'd see I have a seed company if I don't interact with them in certain ways I'd be banned and that's really my whole experience with forums and that's really what happened at the cabana you know the original because that was part of the other things that we had like we said no seed sales you know we didn't want any seed spam so we literally by policy pushed all of our friends I'm still scared to post in seed stuff there bro like it feels so weird it's all good now dude Kirby said it's good to go but the reality is that we need a new approach to move ahead the dinosaur either collapses or gets extinct or we move ahead having had all those parties and interacted with a lot of guys who are 20 or 30 years younger than me who have other aspirations and ideas which I wasn't thinking about or didn't ever think about I guess you know really brings a whole new perspective to what we want to do we don't remember the days when at seed bay you know like if you bought something from you know Doc Green Thumbs and you had a question and you posted up in his help forum like how do I grow this or how long does you know you'd get either him to answer himself or one of his helpers or you know a group of four or five other people would jump in and answer and try to help and that's part of what you know is missing out there is yeah it's easy to go buy a pack of seeds but what do you expect from it you know and it's good to have people you know I mean that's how my relationship with D my relationship with Moto Rebel you know it was all based on beta testing they relied on me to be honest which I brutally was really bad and you know and I always tried to be as descriptive as I could so if somebody put themselves in my shoes you know alright I'm going to grow a few of these I could give them an easy way show them the picture show them the root show them the plant through several stages and then show them buds and flower and then show them a finished picture and then you know we de-appreciated that it allowed us to become you know personal friends way back you know before it was posh to be friends with someone on the internet I think we also knew that intrinsically him being in you know Canada and me being in Colorado we were absolutely no harm to each other but we became you know we're the three of us right here we just were brothers these guys are my brothers brothers I don't have any brothers only a brother would fly down to Canada to his other brothers in New York City come in a fucking truck and move them to Colorado right right yeah that's an awesome story as well that is another time there is enough time but yes Darren drove a 18-wheeler with all my life's possessions from the Bronx to Littleton, Colorado when my flight was delayed and I was supposed to accompany him that is a brother right there when the house sale was delayed yeah that's what it was it was a it's a great story dude I gotta tell it now oh the cops skinny lives next door to a New York City cop he's got a narcotics detective she was a narcotics detective and she was not nice so never played that she was not nice she did not get along with skinny so we got this fucking giant car loaded up with all skinny's possessions in the driveway and it's a shared driveway with the cop and skinny right I own it she had it right away through it to get to her parking spot in the back and all the time I lived there over five years she abused her privileges and she parked her cop car right there in my driveway blocking everybody from using the backyard are you fucking me and after a while I got pissed and I'd start knocking on your door and asking you to move your freaking cop car and this is all the while she'd stand in the driveway talking on the phone underneath my second story air conditioner dripping sour diesel on her anyways we had all skinny stuff loaded on the truck before we're ready to leave right and then the next skinny and I we hop on the subway we go down the Times Square go get some dumplings or something chill out do some last minute tour stuff for me we come back as soon as we walk around the corner there's fucking cop cars everywhere we're like holy fuck what's going on we walk up to the driveway here's the lady cop being a fucking Karen get this fucking truck out of the driveway get this truck out of the driveway and meanwhile it's dark and on skinny street there's parking on both sides of the street in New York City in the Bronx we got this giant like 26 foot truck there the cop says well you're gonna have to move your truck and I'm like move it where I can't even get out of the fucking driveway dude they tried to tow it we're gonna tow it and I'm like dude go for it go for it right now I want to see you tow it call the tow truck right now remember the truck was there they couldn't do it because they didn't have the space to pull the truck out we could attach the tow truck so we had it so tight people parked right up to the driveways there's no way you were getting a fucking tow truck in there to get this giant truck so anyways the cop had to tell the lady Karen cop dude just shut the fuck up they're leaving at six o'clock in the morning just stop being a bitch and go to bed skinny and I went to house got high and I fucking left the next morning and drove to Colorado and ended up at house when the giant truck in front of its house still think about that horrible woman anyway sorry that side truck that was just a funny funny story of moving skinny out of New York to get to Denver she was kind of a top cop she actually escorted Escobar when he was no no no who's the one that they brought here Chapo she escorted El Chapo at one point if I'm not mistaken she made herself a name with that now Walter uninvolved officer Karen in said truck you guys left out a very important part of the story so you know Darren left Steve's house in New York headed for Colorado and the average speed limit between here and there was like 65 to as much of 75 miles an hour Darren calls me from I want to say it was like somewhere near Ames, Iowa seems like he should be closer why the truck wouldn't move out of low gear it's got a gunner on it so this truck is it's not doing more than 55 on downhill slope dude I remember going through the poke nose fucking a crawl up the fucking 10 miles an hour dude this is going to take me fucking forever what did I sign up for I was supposed to be with him but my house sale was delayed so I had to stay an extra day in New York and Darren was on a time schedule to get this done then he had to be back to Canada oh wow like you said that's a brother that's a brother dude Darren are huge points that day anyways it's cool and then Howie let me stay there in his basement for a month or whenever until I rented my first house so this is where the forms could lead and I'm sure we're just one of many life long friendships that those old forms you know started for sure I know these guys still talk to other people from years ago it was a fun time and it would be nice to make forms fun again I don't want to even jinx us but we've had no real trolls or anything like that I don't know if trolls aren't a thing no they're definitely a thing but I'll tell you one thing Kirby's not going to have any any patience for that but it seems very cool dude the reception has been very cool we've almost got a thousand new members since we opened up January 1st so just barely two months dude it's not huge or anything but dude I'm grateful that's awesome that's new blood people are probably going to dip their toes in the water and feel how it is because you might have bad experiences with other forms like you said Matt I'm the king of the bad experiences the forms I think I you know real quick can I please give a shout out to Detective Diane Spangenberg in New York Bronx it was Diane Diane Spangenberg Diane Spangenberg Spangenberg Spangenberg Spangen I think a Spangen and and a Berg well a long way we've made a lot of life long friends you know absolutely dude and some really cool people have passed dude some really cool people like you know it's just like you know it's like 20 years is a long time you know like and we're older you know you guys are a lot younger and I'm sure you guys are going to do it all justice I know Kirby is going to do everything justice dude it's like he has mad respect for us we have mad respect for him for what he's doing we love him like a brother we wish him nothing but success yes absolutely 100% dude we're behind him we support him and we're going to be here to help him I don't know you know how hands on will be like without Skiddy he's been a huge help to us right now like dude since switching over to the new Senforo software and all that Skiddy has been like the go to guy we've been rocking his sock sock dude and he's just been like a trooper I'm the ITG we're still waiting to get the rest of our smileys back but we'll get there one day I'm sure I did the ITG I was going to say too that for our little collaboration here this is also potentially just the beginning like I don't know exactly what kinds of shows we'll do with the Kibana and you guys in the future but I can see lots of possibilities like we could do little highlight segments from the Kibana we could do really topical ones that you guys want we could let you guys host your own show if you want so I think there's lots of interesting opportunities to come I think three of us might like to do some comedy skits I mean you guys you guys you guys is like what do you call it symbiotic nature with each other and how you can mess with each other's balls like it's perfect you love it and like you know I'm sure like Kirby he's got big ideas he's got a lot of new events he wants to get the Kibana out there and you know we'll get some merch going and stuff like that and you know more podcasts things like that you know for sure definitely I want you guys to have a discord channel too I think that's that's going to be a a big part of it we tried to discord they and we we stumbled famously I have many more Bronx tales oh I love those I bet you have tons there we do have the discord thing loaded up on the site but none of us really know how to use it no we have not true I use discord all the time for playing Pokemon Go oh well you know I played the game as well I like that game sometimes I like that we need to get Howie into hours then meet Denali him and Denali probably about your age but he's also a fisherman extraordinaire he's about to go fishing with someone real famous in our community and he's also a weed guy and those two things that's how he did yeah he says the tug is the drug tug is the drug that's how I got along with I met through growing seeds I met Skitty through trading buds I met Buckwheat back in the day because he posted up at CW way back in the day a picture of a fly he tied for bass fishing and I literally was like it was really a beautiful hand-tied frog with movable arms I was super impressed I can't tie anything like that God bless him he sent me a box of him we became good friends him me and Waisos went fishing a couple of times half of it was for me just meeting new people putting myself out there man the community's just been a great thing well for sure dude we're still waiting for Waisos to come back I haven't seen him strolling he needs a little tug as the drug I need to get him on some fishing or something and try to twist his arm I really like that tug is the drug thing that's great that's how he's tying that's my tag line this has been awesome like the cabana is going to be way different than the other forms similar in the whole question and answer thing but we're not going to have any troll bullshit like that and it's going to be fun again we're going to make it fun we're going to have contests we're going to have news it's all new it's all up to date and everything there's a lot of posts to read through and we encourage everybody to read every last one of them dude there's so much value there all 18,000 pages I wrote it down here but I know we didn't bring it up yet but the free for all clone most people don't know about that anymore that was a big thing with you guys right sorry the free for all the FFA you guys remember that one was that over your head it was a it was a it was passed out there I don't remember that one I don't remember that one either but there was so many I was during my era that's funny sometimes it's hard for us to stay relevance we want to still grow the old school strains where a lot of people just like 1980 just called they said they want their pounds back and that's the thing for me dude so many seeds and including so many so much of my own gear it's just hard to remember standouts like there were so many standouts but you know you're always just moving on so many seeds and if you didn't pop them like as we know they're just going to go to waste dude I still even I haven't bred a seed since 2017 and 2018 and I literally have like millions of seeds like what am I going to fucking do with them right it's like and story of my life I've given away far more seeds than I've ever I think we all have I gave away like most of my collections they were just going to go stale just like these Jojo packs or the Jojo pack over there I'm at that point too 20 years old and it's like well and not everybody stored everything good so I'm hoping that you know tissue culture embryo resurrection maybe that's something you know dude because I am sitting on some pretty old seeds that we're not stored properly that I just would love to get to you know some 3911 stuff but you gotta keep your fingers crossed I have stuff dude from you know that goes back to the late 90s right start busting some seeds man some of the original stuff that we got and I I wouldn't even know what to do with it if I germed it you know I have such limited capacities to do that I gotta find somebody who wants them though that's the problem we'll find some people that will pop them that's probably the idea I forget who said it it was one of the wisest comments I ever heard or read on a forum was that if everybody just took a single pack out of their collection and just started them just one pack everybody and just see what's there dude we could find the new new from the fucking old time right like and that's all it would take you know few thousand people just popping a pack from like the fucking early 2000s kill cookies thank you I'm on that path man I'm still on the blueberry path where like finding old blueberry for me meant the world you know and finally we locked it down got something it's truly blueberry tasting and smelling and you could pop a pack of seeds and they're all clones of each other that took a long time to get there that Tony guy his blueberry was fucking he originally sourced his from DJ Shorty so it was still the same stuff but it was a very early generation before it was super inbred with just a few plants it was before that so it still had a lot of open space you could still find that super actually blueberry smelling plant after a while that was just gone so it was all about chasing those down and the one I had back in the late 80s early 90s that was a sativa and just little sparse little popcorn nugs up and down and the stems were blood red seriously and it's just you could smell one blueberry plant over a whole room of another strain I got something for you brother I got some cool shit for you I think you're gonna like it it's exactly that it's red stemmed the taste was so wonderful yeah that's been my biggest chase in life once I found it I haven't left in like six years same thing and I can't believe I let that go along with the DJ short flow the flow is cool we have that too we kept that around too actually it's dutch passion flow yeah it wasn't dutch passion a pack of those original blueberries it was my first ever grow where I didn't grow bag seed and of course I knew nothing about cloning just have these beautiful blueberry plants that stink like blueberry pie and have these beautiful red stems yep and of course I could never get them again yeah dutch passion DJ short sold his seeds through them after a sake of math yeah I thought they even used to stock or whatever later on they used to stock themselves this was this was back late 90's I want to say that this was before I moved from New Orleans to New York sorry we definitely got all that we definitely got all that in spades so I would like to see what Canadian guys that love blueberry think and some of you guys that have had it before I think it would be a fun journey I haven't tasted anything like that since it was so so I got a garden I can get them into there yeah yeah I got you guys covered I got you guys covered on it for sure happy to how you want to run any I got you too brother yeah oh yeah that experience that experience of smelling a real blueberry plant that doesn't smell like skunk doesn't smell like anything else but just truly blueberry jam it blows people's minds when they smell it and taste it my story was when I was living in New Orleans I lived in a 150 year old house and I had to grow in the back bedroom and back of the house we were looking in the backyard and if I was down outside in the backyard I could smell the one or two blueberry plants over everything else growing in the room at that point those were the first seeds I ever got actually this is even well before I was on the internet or anything and a friend went to Amsterdam and brought back seeds one strain was mind control one was valley girl maybe it was just the two strains but there was valley girl and the mind control and they were both phenomenal strains yeah and of course lost to history at least for me but we still talk about the weed being some old friends to this day but why did I even bring that up blueberry smelling out the window okay yeah the Dutch cluster yeah so there was a room full of valley girl and just a couple of blueberry plants would just overtake all that strain I'd smell and this is before I was smart enough to use carbon filters or even knew about carbon filters was barely on the internet then and so I had like a real stink going on man and fortunately it was in a part of town where no one probably either gave a shit or if anything they would not nerf me out just rob my house anyway this is way back in my ghetto growing career back back in the day I was growing with four inch rockwell cubes in rows of rain gutters that I set up on a tilt with one gutter at the end to catch from all the other drains going into a reservoir and for as horrible as the system really was it got some really good results this was 1988ish 88 dude I think skinny pioneered a lot of good times back in the day no no I'm sorry that was that was 93ish excuse me the 80s I was in Minneapolis I used to do I got my start in Minneapolis like I might have mentioned no internet nothing this was way back in the late 80s and had to go source books from it was Schinders books on Hennepin had some obscure weed growing books and started out with that I was able to store some rockwell professional lights we didn't even know anything about so we went to some like building supply store and we bought a streetlight like a great metal halide and we strung that up yeah when I first saw my dad's goes he was stealing metal halides off streetlights the first girl I saw in doors were my dads like that yeah we had a metal halide it grew in south Minneapolis was my start I do a guy up here that used to go to public works auctions and buy old streetlights for the old municipalities where we'll change up the streetlights just go buy the old fucking new bulb in it good as new there you go right you scrap the whole arm part from scrap metal and just keep the fucking light part no dude never underestimate the ingenuity of a cannabis grower that's right they can turn an apple into a pipe bro I turn rain bedders into a hydra system yeah you probably developed nutrient film technique yourself bro exactly I was going to say dude people have been copying skiddy tech for a long time as long as I should remember skiddy tech is like the bomb that's legit too skiddy tech you gotta follow what the dude says 100% that's not skiddy tech I've had more than a few people ask me can I change up the nudes a little bit in the Rockwell cubes no absolutely not like go talk to skiddy he's going to tell you no explain why you want the results you gotta follow the recipe it's like good baked goods you know that's why people will wait for skiddy packs right they know and that's also why you'll hear me rant one day about all this crop steering crap where they push the high ppm so I hope none of you guys are super crop steering fans because I can rip on it and Darren many years ago Darren talked me into trying a very low ppm bro with my Rockwell less is more less is more and while I did switch to ec instead of ppm anymore I still keep it low and I grow at like a 1.0 I try telling you the same thing you don't necessarily need to raise the nutrients until it's telling you to do it exactly dude why would you even push it like that the resins and the flavors and everything once you start pushing that you lose it straight out for weight and they're like oh my god they're getting like a runoff of 3.0 something are you buying it for good weed or are you buying it for biomass biomass right they're growing it for the biomass I think they're all using you know I guess salt nutrients nowadays I guess got really popular whatever bulk whatever I still use pure blend pro hard to go back with that dude that has great flavor in it I grow in dirt I grow in dirt reality of growing in dirt is like I'm very small scale I grow for me my family and the reality is that yeah I can look at the Gary Payton I can get a clone from Steve of Gary Payton I can grow it heat and grow it you know twice three times as much as mine in some cases the way you know he grows and the way he pushes things but we both have different needs sure so I go for you know I go for what I'm going to consume you know what comforts me is part of getting my hands dirty I used to be an archeologist so oh wow I didn't know that yeah so I like playing in dirt um a lot it's always been a natural easy way and again before the internet you know when I picked up a few books it suggested that the easiest way to learn was growing in dirt I have and I've you've been using the same basic formula now for almost 20 years nothing changes I love it I got a man providing me a great set of clones so it's always great that's how it goes so is there anything else you want to get in before we wrap this episode I have a feeling I'm going to be doing a lot more with you guys this is a we have to we have to do it earlier he's going to join this you need it earlier yeah I'm actually nocturnal I was supposed to be in bed about four and a half hours ago pretty much I'm at the total end of my day and I don't know why that my wife has brought me my stuff that's lovely I've been taking bites while I've been putting my head off you've been trying to sneak it off the camera I've just been smoking I've mostly pet my cats they took too long that'll work dude all I have to say to finish off if that's where we're going dude we got to get Kirby on here the part is like it's where we're going dude he made us do this we busted his balls I busted all your balls by proxy to get you it was well worth it to be honest Matt you've been busting my balls even longer than that that's what I'm known for I'll say a shout out to D-man for helping me coordinate as well D-man is helping me send on the info yeah no problem thank you guys for having us on it's a pleasure to be here yes it's fun I appreciate the opportunity to speak same here dude appreciate the opportunity just tell it how it happened as much as I remember wanna sit at the table with the syndicate check out our patreon and our link tree or description below our merch site is officially live we have all sorts of shirts hoodies and goodies to sort you out and shipping is super fast and most importantly the quality is top notch I've been saving old designs for years for this purpose so please check it out syndicategear.com we also have an underground syndicate discord where we get together and solve old strain history together daily it's an amazing community of learning away from IG and it's an amazing resource for old catalogs and knowledge we hope you join our union of breeders come check it out


If you're trapped in addiction or habitual sin, here's a biblical key that can help you. Don't copy the behavior and customs of this world, but let God transform you into a new person by changing the way you think. You can't change your behavior unless you've changed your mind. If you're struggling to change your behavior, it's a sign that your mind still needs to be renewed. If you change your behavior without changing your mind, you end up fighting against yourself. So repent, change your mind, agree with God that the sin will not fulfill. Agree with God that it's completely wrong. Agree with God that it should go immediately in all forms, in all measure, and for all time. Sometimes we say, God, I'm done with it. All the while, the flesh whispers, for now, we cry no more. And the flesh whispers, that is, no more until the craving gets strong again. Stop lying to yourself about what you want or intend. Repent, change your mind, agree with God, and don't give the sin nature an opportunity.