Welcome to Psychic Medium, Tony Green. I am Tony Green, the host of the show, The Psychic, the Medium, the channel, if you will. Okay, so today's show is going to be very much like every other show I do. If you would like to call in and ask a question, the call in number is<PHONE_NUMBER>. If you would like to join us live on YouTube in the chat, you can go ahead and post a question there. I go live every Monday at noon, and I'm trying something new doing OneSpace at 7 p.m. So I can reach people who have different work schedules, so I'm hoping that's going to be successful. I start every show with a few announcements and then names of people from heaven and then songs for you, from them for you or about them, and then maybe a little channeling. Today, we are going to take our time during this show. I realize that sometimes during a show, I'm so nervous about getting to every single color or trying to get every single see the stress, lode, lode, lode, about trying to get to everybody that sometimes I'm just like, you know, I'm answering the questions but I'm really trying to get through it. So right now, I'm going to take, today is a show where I'm just going to take my time with everything I do during the show no matter what. So brace yourself. Just brace yourself because there may be a lot, a lot of rambling. I'm joking. I'm joking. Okay, so the first thing I want to say, you can also connect with me on social media on tiktok. I put out healings prior to every show and today's healings are two of my favorite. The first one is being able to let go of what no longer serves us and the second one is to like and to love yourself, like everything about yourself, the way you want somebody to like and love you. So those are the clearings on tiktok that I put out this morning and they are pretty powerful. Through the second one, I couldn't even finish talking like I had to be like, okay, bye. Okay, bye. And then I am also on Facebook, Instagram, LinkedIn. So the one thing I want to say about any social media, I will never ever reach out and tell anybody they need a reading. It's time for a reading. I need money. Cash app me and I'll send you a reading. I don't do that. Listen, I don't even like to return text messages, because it's way too much.  And I meant to say I don't book first time clients through text and it came out I don't f first time clients through text. And while thank goodness she had the most amazing sense of humor, and she said it made her day. But yes, this is exactly why I don't text or email people because my phone has a wicked sense of humor. And that's what ends up coming out. Okay. So if you do want to if but if you do want to reading, you can go to my website, which is T O M I G dot I N F O I do book readings, private group and events. If you're interested, that is how to get ahold of me or you can call my business number<PHONE_NUMBER>. Having said that, the next thing I will say again is if you would like to call in and ask a question today, or connect with a loved one on the other side, the number is 897286. No, that's that again is my number. The number is<PHONE_NUMBER>. I apologize for that. Okay, I think I said everything I need to say about that. I am going to go directly into the I'm going to go directly into the names. So these are names of people I would hear from. It's either your name or your loved one in heaven's name, but I just hear the name and I give you what I get. And yes, one name can be for more than one person. So the first name I'm hearing is Michael M Y K A L. Michael. I hope I'm saying that correctly. The next name I'm hearing is Alex. But this person, I don't know why I hear Alex and then see Axel. Maybe that's my dyslexia. I don't know. It's it's extremely possible. That's the case. The next name I'm hearing is Shanane. The next name I'm hearing is Tim or Timothy. The next name I'm hearing is Jen or Jenny. And the next name I'm hearing is, um, I know who this is for. Jim, Jim, Jimmy, James, Jen, or Jenny. And I know you don't like being called Jenny. I do. But it just comes out that way. And I'm not going to go into that. Sorry, Jimmy, James, Jimmy, James, Jimmy, James. I'm trying not to lose my poop right now. So I'm just turning this into a joke. I'm going to just push that aside, aside, aside, because we're only doing names right now. I'm not doing a full on message for anybody this way. The next name I'm hearing is Makayla. The next name I'm hearing is, um, Jesus, Michelle, stop it. Michelle. The next name I'm hearing is, um, oh, so Jim James is is not going away apparently because he's sending all all the names through. But I'm going to keep I'm going to persevere. I'm going to get through it. I'm going to persevere. Uh, the next name I'm hearing is, uh, Delilah. And then I'm going to do two more names, you guys. And the next name I'm hearing is again, Shanayne, two different names, please. Shanayne. I feel like I need to make up a song based on the name Shanayne. I just feel like that should be a song. And I don't think you guys even know where my mind goes with that song in the Shanayne. Like, uh, she did the Shanayne and it was, hey, hey, I don't know. I'm so immature. Oh my god. Why I'm single. I'm so immature. Why I'm single. Really, really, I mean, I'm really immature. Okay. Oh, two more names. Okay. Who, who else? Um, Josephina, Josephine or Josephina. And then the next name I'm hearing is, um, L-A-U-D-E. I can't, I can't say it. I'm sorry. Laudie, Laudie, Laudie, Laudie. I don't know. Those are the names. Now I'm going to go straight into songs and the first thing I'm hearing is the Righteous Brothers, which I know is not a song, but it is a, a group, the Righteous Brothers and whatever, anything, I guess, by the Righteous Brothers. The next, uh, song I'm hearing is take that song, Take Me to Church, which by the way, I know I say this every time. I kind of like that song. I kind of do. Um, and then that song, um, I'm only human. I love that song probably because of the deep voice that the guy who sings that has. Uh, yeah. I'm only human. You say I'm done done. No, no, no, no, no. I don't know the words and I like the song and I don't even know the words. So that should tell you a lot about these songs coming through. Okay. The next song I'm hearing is, um, the next song I'm hearing is, I don't even know if this is an artist, but Chelsea Grammer and that might be two different artists, but that's what I'm hearing. And then then the next song is Live and Let, Live and Let Die. And then the next song is, they just keep going back over the same songs again. So I'm going to let that go. Now I'm going to do the channeling, today's channeling, but before I do it, the channeling while I'm listening to the, while I'm speaking, the channeling and listening myself, I want to do a clearing for everyone listening, watching and this is anything stopping or blocking money from coming to us is being cleared now. I get a no. So let's heal, clear, release us all that caused and kept all that caused and kept this block has been cleared and released and I get a no. And then channeling is one angels like basically just step in and speak to you these, these messages for everyone listening and it is the angels that come in and speak. This is not a time for separation. This is a time for unity.  While one person may see discord, another person may see peace. While one person may see destruction, another person may see construction. This is the time to realize that in your mind, you hold the future. So sorry.   Some powers that be are trying to make you to see with your mind see only what is bad and fearful and keep you in a place filled downtrodden. Allow yourself to see enlightenment. Allow yourself to see the future that you want to see for your mind is the projector and the world is the screen.    If certain entities allow you to stay in a space of fear, guilt, shame, any lower negative emotions and or feelings, you will then project that onto your screen. We want to give you a small example in certain areas or certain countries. It is thought of as despair and poverty. And then if you look at your area or certain other areas, they are thought of as prosperity and free. You must keep your projector projecting visions and thoughts and feelings of love and freedom and unity. You must keep yourself in that space of pure knowing of moving forward in this space and time with only what you wish and want. Okay, I really, really, really, really, really, really, really like that. I hope you guys enjoyed that too. Excuse me. I am going to go into callers in a second and I want to say hi to everybody online joining in in the chat. And we have Sal here, we have Patrick here, Ann is here, Fawn is here, Mimi, hey Mimi, thank you for doing all the timestamps in the things. Genevieve is here. Rebecca, I feel like I'm missing someone, but it's okay if I missed you. I just want you to know I didn't do it intentionally. Okay, everybody remember I'm going to be back Wednesday at 7 p.m. We are just getting started with this show. One of the things I want to talk about today and I'm going to take callers and then try to talk in between callers. But usually once I take a caller, I just like keep taking callers and keep answering questions. But there's something that's coming through about relationships that really wants to come out today. And it's a channeling and this thing about relationships and us being, it will come out through the show, I'm sure of it, but in between callers I'm going to try to stop and take a break and talk a little bit about work and relationship and that projector and the mind that they were talking about. And I just want to say this again, well, I did a clearing on, you know, you like yourself and you love yourself on TikTok this morning, but I am going to say this and it's, it was a huge epiphany and we don't even realize that we have this going on within us. If we don't love ourselves, no matter how many times somebody tells you that they love you, you will never believe them. Your mind reaction or your internal reaction, maybe sure, why, what makes you love me? You're just saying that because you want A, B, and C. And for many of us, no matter how we grew up or what situation we had growing up, we did not, we do not unconditionally love ourselves the way we want someone else to love and that I'm going to tell you now. I'm channeling again. I'm sorry, you guys. I am such a dork. I love it. I won't change that for nobody. The purpose you're going to be shocked when I tell you this, the purpose of your life is love, but now pay attention here and you need to get this I'm being blown away. Tony is being blown away because I know what they're going to say. Oh my God. The purpose of this life is love, unconditional love, but self love. Now hear us out. Here is out. This may be if you never hear anything again. This is probably the only thing you need to hear that projector in your mind that projects what you see on that screen is even creating or bringing in the people that are playing out that scene on the screen in accordance to how much you love yourself. What did we were to tell you?  Okay, just I have to say that I need to start rewriting my script personally. Yeah. Okay. Okay. Okay. Sorry. Here we go again. Your whole existence, your whole purpose, your whole reason for being here is self love. Now we will tell you this. The amount of anything and everything that you allow yourself without guilt, without question, without hesitation will tell you the amount of self love that you have. So everybody thinks they need to work on their prosperity and their money and their I want this house and I need this job. What you are allowing yourself is how much love you have for yourself. You say I need a partner that does this or that or that loves me. You need to love yourself because in that place of love, you can only attract what you are and who you are and the people who show up are often showing up to show you to help you see where you do not love or respect or give to yourself and we want to go one step further and you say and you say and you say I just want somebody to love me. Love is a word that is so all thrown around. We are going to say this to you. You want care. You need to love unconditionally yourself. But what you really want is somebody who cares for you, somebody who cares about you, somebody who will take care of you in whatever way. We see all these little girls out here asking for these bags, these purses, these Chanel, these Louis Vuitton's, and they equate that to a form of care, a form of showing love. And the truth is that is external validation for something internally lacking. And what we are going to challenge you to do is to see where you love yourself, write a list of everything that you like about yourself without hesitation, then make the list of the things you think can improve. Those are the areas where you have a lack of love and that I will bet you is what you think everybody else thinks about you, my dear friend, my dear loved one.  Okay, I think I can start taking callers now, everybody. Y'all, I'm not Southern, but y'all, y'all, sorry if that clapping was loud, everybody. Wow, okay, I need a drink on that. Here's to smoothie mornings. If you are on YouTube, comment, comment where that hit you, let me know. And if you're not watching this live, you're watching it after the fact in the comments put, did that resonate? Did you feel that? Was that it for you? Okay, I'm going to take callers and in between callers, I'm going to answer questions on YouTube and do healings and clearings on YouTube. And let's double down on that self-love one. We unconditionally like and love ourselves. I get a no, let's clear that. Now we know the goal, right? The first caller is 203203. What's your name and where are you calling from? I'm Connecticut. Hey, Pat, how can I help you? The channeling was great. Absolutely perfect. And I was not going to ask you about a relationship because I think I felt a little embarrassed and was afraid for the answer, but this is perfect. So I'd like to ask about Sam. Is he treating me properly? Is it just a guy thing? It's been so long, Tony. I don't have a clue. And should I just switch this to say no to him the way he's acting and just go back to a friendship? Yes, to the last question. Listen, I'm going to say something here.  If we are confused about the way a person is treating us, chances are they are not treating us completely. We're just trying to fluff it off or make excuses for them because we know what appropriate treatment is because we treat people appropriately. So if somebody's not treating us in a way that we have to question that treatment or it leaves us feeling confused, there's either manipulation lies or mistreatment going on because we're pretty sane people and we know what good treatment is. We know what healthy treatment is, but we also want to give people the benefit of the doubt and don't. Don't. We are not dealing with 16 year olds who have never been in a relationship before. We are dealing with full grown people who have had at least one other person tell them this is not correct behavior. This is not the way you treat somebody. This is inappropriate. So chances are if you're asking this question, you already know the answer and the answer is if we have to ask, is this normal? No, no, it's not because we know we've been through enough to know what normal and good is. By the time we're asking the question, they're not even at good. They're subpar. They are subpar behavior at that point, but we're so either and sweetie, I'm not saying you, I'm not saying you. We are either a little desperate for love and care or we just really want something to work out or it has been a minute. So we're not sure like is this what's really going on in the world today, but whatever it is, the moment we have to question it, step back, take a week of no contact if you can and then find out if you feel better and then separation always brings clarity. Okay, separation will always bring clarity. And I say, don't just think things out, write them out. If you are trying to figure out if something is good, better and different, write it out. And then here's the most important thing I say to people.  No, chances are no, never, never, you would do everything in your power to let that not happen. So do the same for yourself, okay? Yeah, may I ask another question regarding the spec? Sure, sure, go ahead. We should move forward because he did not want to ruin the friendship. Is he being disrespectful? That's okay. So I'm going to tell you something. Thank you for asking that. And I'm going to, I'm going to say this, that's an excuse. Every guy on YouTube chat right now, when a guy says that, I'm going to tell you that's an excuse because what I'm going to just say this, men know what they want. And when they want something, nothing will stop them because they are the hunters. They are the gatherers unless he's shooting up estrogen every night. And I think he's not. I'm just going to tell you right now that that whole, I don't want to ruin the friendship line is a line. And women use it too. That's okay. It's a very, it's a very nice way of telling somebody I don't want to be in a relationship. It's a way of them saying it without hurting you. But the truth of the matter is, first, never pursue, never chase, never as a woman, never pursue a guy because men know how to pursue women. They're not shy. They're not missing the signals. Even men who think they don't have a shot with a woman will go up in a bar and talk to them. They will go up to a woman any place and talk to them. If they see something they like, they're going to go for it. So please, in this case, just take your self respect and say, you know what, I thought about it. You're absolutely correct. We cannot ruin this friendship. Thank you for being upfront and honest with me. Now I can move forward in a direction with somebody who, whatever, and you don't even have to add that, but just get yourself, don't be hurt by this, be honored by it, that they were, they were decent enough to be honest, and then move forward in the best possible way. But don't let this be the defining factor, maintain a friendship. But if you can, if you cannot just move forward and do the best you can. Pat, thank you so much for calling in. I'm so grateful for that. I am going to try to get to the next caller now. I want to, I'm having trouble seeing the print on the chat today. So I want to say your name is, I'm going to have to get really close to this girl. Oh, I just have to block out the light. Ariane, and that's your first time here. I think I need to hear this. Oh, thank you so much. Thank you. Yeah. Welcome to the show. I'm sorry I can't see your name correctly. The light behind the screen is kind of blinding me. I'm going to go directly to the next caller who is, again, I want to say that's 586. 586. What's your name and where are you calling from? Hi. Hi. Hi. My name is Cheryl. I'm calling from Michigan. How are you? I'm excellent. I'm sorry. What is your name, love? I'm Cheryl. I'm calling from Michigan. Cheryl. Okay. Thank you, Cheryl. How can I help you today, beautiful? Yes, I'm going to send a message from the other side, please, or from my spirit side, or whoever wants to come forward. Okay. The first thing I see is I'm going to tell you, I see this dance, and I don't know if you're watching on YouTube, but I cannot do this, but I'm going to do my best. It's where they go, hey, and they lean back and snap, and then they come forward, and then they go the other way and lean back and snap. Rock with it, roll with it. Rock. I don't even know if that's a song. I think it is. That is the first thing I see for you. Okay. And the second thing. Lean with it. Rock with it. Okay. Thank you. Thank you. And then the second thing I see, I have two elders coming in, elders being ancestors of yours. And one of them is a woman who has dark skin, and she was fuller, like a fuller woman, and then a man next to her who was probably a little bit thinner than her, and then a third man steps in who was, he had that weight in his body area, but maybe not in his legs. So these are the three people who instantly stepped in. One of them could be an uncle-ish, but I feel like one of them is a mom or a grandmom, for sure, because I hear mom, mom, mom. Yeah, grandmother. Okay. Grandmom is here. And the person next to her, the people next to her I feel like they're her relatives. I don't know if one of them was her partner, but a partner can be a relative too, like a husband, his family. But these are the three people who instantly stepped through. They're standing behind me on my right. And they're here, the biggest message that they want to give you today is to keep moving forward. They want you to start, and I hear that song every day, I'm hustling, because I don't want to say, they want you to start, if you're not doing something on your own, they want you to set up and start something that you can also do on your own. And if you have started something on your own, there's going to be a segue, this is going to segue into another thing that coexists with it that you're going to be able to do together. These two things, they're like piggybackers, they work well together. Okay. Does this message make sense? So what should I start on my own? I'm sorry? No, so what should I start on my own? What should you start on your own? Well, I can tell you one of the things I could tell you a million different types of business that you could start on your own. But what I'm getting right now is it's something that's deep inside of you.  Do you have a dog? I do. Okay, because they're showing me. I don't have a daughter. They're showing me like this cutest little girl.  Okay, so yes, this is correct. They do, I do have the right place. So I don't know if what you're going to do has something to do with children and children's. Okay. I don't know. I am getting something here that I almost, I don't know if I should, I'm not going to tell you this in private, obviously, because we're all work, we're on the show show right now. But I'm going to say one of the things that you could do on your own has, how old is your baba now? How old is your little baba now? Oh, she's about to be seven. She was born one, one, one, January 11th of this year. Yeah, Jesus, man and Moses. Yeah, she's got holy guacamole. Okay, one of the things I'm getting is to start a, you could start something called baby sounds. And that should have put something in your head. But if it didn't, it is definitely like, not necessarily, it's like sound track, like literally baby sounds on things. Okay, next. You're also very, I feel like I'm getting the word ingenuitive and or intuitive, which means that you should start honing that now. There's a certain period of time while pregnant and right after pregnancy where that intuition just kicks your butt and they're asking you to really tap into it and don't let it go, don't let it fade away and keep working with it so that you can keep that. I do feel like there are a couple of different things you can do. Like I see you are like this person, you could make body scrubs or creams or I just see something in jars. I'm assuming it's that you could do.  You could do a number of different things that you really are very passionate about. And this could be a whole baby line, but a baby line that adults could also use because well, we need the goody goods on our skin too instead of all the chemicals that they're pushing at us. So I feel like it could start off with one product and then piggyback or branch into another product and definitely use your intuition with this because I feel like in doing this you're going to meet the term I'm getting is meet the masses. And one of the things that they're saying your peeps are saying is get back to your roots. Now this can mean a couple different things. Okay. Get back to your roots. And what is that? It could mean, now you could know what that means already. When I say get back to your roots, you might go, oh, I know exactly what they're talking about. I'm thinking the chakra. Yes, get to my root chakra. It could be, I see two other things. Roots being, it could be the roots because we're talking about a product. It could be something for the roots of your hair or whatever. Or get back to your roots doing clean products again for, you know, get back to the roots of it. The good, the goody good stuff, the clean, clear stuff is all I'm getting like, like shea butter when it was shea butter. Okay. Not when it had like all these fake scents and colors in it. But just get back, get back to basics, get back to roots and build it and you will meet the masses. When you, when you start this, don't worry about how many people you get it to, worry about getting it to the right people instead of the number. Okay. So overall, I'm sorry, I'm not going to hold you up any more longer. Just to make sure I have the clear message that you have mentioned to me is that you see me having a product line with babies and adults as far as like skincare or anything dealing with, you know, that correct. And, and here's what I'm going to say. If I'm getting it correctly. Yes. Yes.  And you're going to know because you should be passionate. It should be something that you've already thought about. But one thing I am getting for sure. Sure. I mean, for sure. Sure. Yes. I mean, no two ways about for sure. Sure is when your baby is happy and when your baby is cooing, make sure you're recording that and making tracks called baby sounds. Okay. I don't know where you're going to go with that. I think I know where you're going to go with that. I like where that could go. But that could be very soothing for other infants and toddlers too. So I mean, there's like a whole world where that could go for someone, right? Do what you will and what you want with all of this yummy, yummy goodness that they've given you. I do see you going on a really big natural kick like making natural popsicles. And maybe this is just for your home, but whatever it's for, I feel like it's coming in if it hasn't hit you already. Now, everything I said, you have to put it into your own passion and run with it. I will. Yes. And thank you so much. I love how you just broke everything down and really dig deep into things and I really appreciate that. I'm going to go back and listen to the podcast. I love that. Thank you so much. Thank you so much. Thank you. And I'm so grateful that you called in today. I'm so happy I was able to talk with you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. And congratulations on your Bubba. I can hear her in the background being so cooing and stuff. Okay, I'm going to go directly to eight six. I think it's eight six zero eight six zero. What's your name? Where are you calling from? Hey, I'm good. How are you? If I could meet him, I'm also going to give him my book. If I could do that, I don't know. I feel like you could give him your book. I feel like that would be good. I don't know what if anything I feel like he may he may this comedian may read it. I do feel like here's my thing. It never hurts to ask. It never hurts to ask, you know, hey, can we have a meet and greet? And hey, can I is it okay if I ask that the people is it okay if you give him a book? Some people are funny about that. One thing I am getting is if you meet him, don't be offended by anything he says.  And in awkward situations, comedians say really awkward things. Now, I know I'm not a comedian, but I think I'm funny. And I will say comedians take the opportunity to make everything into a joke. So please don't if you do meet before and or after, make sure you're not being offended by anything stated. Make sure you're not being offended by anything that it might get said or not get said, okay. And then you'll you're going to be just fine. Okay, love. Yes. And again, I would ask his what I'm going to call handlers. And I do feel like there is, you know, here's what I'm going to say online. Sometimes it depends on the day. Like, for example, right now, it looks good. But if he has a day where everything's running late, or he just had a bad phone call right before he's supposed to do this show, or his day starts to turn, he might know or he gets drunk or whatever during or before the show, maybe then it will change. But as of right now, it looks okay. It looks like it will be something that is good. However, the day of the show, it will see but it looks good right now. And again, I say there's no harm in asking and trying to set it up. I will tell you in the past when I've done events, I, you know, I don't mind obviously talking with people after the fact, pre event, I'm really in that space where I'm just trying to keep all the voices in. I can't believe I'm going to say the quiet part out loud, keeping all the voices in my head. Now no, I do not need medication. Well, unless you ask my family, but I'm just kidding, I'm kidding, I'm kidding. Oh my gosh. I'm just trying to keep it like, get it together and that whatever. And if I like meet with, if I would meet with people other than the people helping me put the event together before the show, you know, it would distract from it. So after ask if it's a possibility and don't expect a lot of time, don't take up a lot of time. Just hey, thanks. I really appreciate you. I wanted to give you this and then move on with your day. And that's what I can say. Okay. Hey, Joy, thanks for joining the show. I am going to go to the next caller who is 917. And then I'm going to take Joy's question on the YouTube chat. 917. What's your name and where are you calling from? 917. Okay, everybody, I have a three second rule. And unfortunately, 917 is probably probably not there. I'm going to take Joy's question and then I'm going to go to 347. So 347, hold on. Joy is saying, can you channel guides? How do we not feel guilt, say around money or loving ourselves? Okay. Joy, that's a really good question. And I'm going to tell you the guilt comes from something else. That's everything I know about guilt, which personally, personal experience, I know whole a butt load about guilt and shame. And this is probably rooted. I'm getting joy for you when you were two or three. So we're going to clear heel release all guilt, all shame, all that caused it, all that has kept it. We're going to clear heel release this as some stopping or blocking this from going. I get a yes, we're going to heal clear and release that. I'm going to tell you something. When it comes to money, and what else did you say here? And loving ourselves, they're the same thing. Whatever we allow ourselves, guilt is like maybe an excuse, but I'm clearing this. So it's a little over. It's a lot. So I'm like trying to get my words together at the same time. So please forgive me while I try to do this. I'm going to tell you this. When we have judged ourselves for something that we have done or something that someone has done to us, then we feel like we don't deserve. Or when we have been punished, we or scolded even as a young child, we then judge ourselves and we feel like we don't deserve. So any and all judgment, any and all, not feeling like we deserve, we are good enough, or any of that in any verbiage has been healed, cleared, released. I get no all that caused and or kept this has healed, cleared, released. I get a no, we're going to heal, clear, release all of this. Here's what I'm going to tell you, Joy. This should clear by tomorrow. Throughout the day and by tomorrow, you should wake up feeling better. Everything that happens, and a lot of people don't like to hear this, but everything that happens is pretty much destined. Not everything, but a lot of it. Well, everything, to what extent we take it is not destined. So like we can meet somebody and get in a relationship with them and they may not be the best person for us, and they may be teaching us very difficult lessons, those lessons will go until we jump out of that relationship. Okay, but that was our choice to stay in as long as we did. Okay, if we have people in our lives, friends, family, workers, co workers that are not treating us appropriately, it's up to us to stay or to be there as long as we choose to, and we can jump out when we want. In the case of guilt and self love, especially with money, there's so much I can say, but this clearing is kicking my butt. I'm going to be really honest about that. It has my mind like just scattered. Sometimes the guilt with money comes from what we hear in our home as a child. If we overheard parents talking about money, or we asked for money, or many different dynamics, but I am going to say to you, receiving in general, just receiving in general, whether it be love, money, gifts, is a huge issue. So we're going to do a clearing. I receive, we receive graciously and gratefully, I get a no, let's heal, clear, release that. And that's anything feelings and material items. And all that causing this, let's clear everything with this. And I literally am feeling physical things right here, which are releasing. So if you guys are feeling this, please let me know. Thank you for asking that. I'm going to go to 347 quickly because the clock is running down 347. What's your name and where are you calling from? Hi, County. This is Katie. Hey, Katie. How can I help you today? Hey, I have a quick question. I was planning to move to Charlotte, North Carolina, and I'm still very open to it. I'm just wondering about moving there or possibly an opportunity came up with an apartment in the town I'm in, which is not in North Carolina. And I'm just wondering about that, about either moving or taking the apartment in the town I'm in. Okay. So should she stay where she is? Should she go to North? I'm hearing it would be really good for you to relocate. Now, I'm not the boss of you. I'm not telling you what to do. In the end, you have to sit with yourself and figure out, are you ready to restart your life?    Are you in Tennessee right now, love? Are you in Tennessee? No, no, no. I'm in New York. I'm in New York. Yeah, they want you. I'm going to tell you. Let me real quick. I'm really sorry. I want to do this real quick because I have like three minutes left of the show. You can go North Carolina and you can do it. You can go Florida or you can go Tennessee. They've taken Texas off the list. Texas is no longer viable. But if you go Tennessee, you'll be happy. You'll find something in your price range, but they are asking you to go. Okay. I know what they're saying because of what they're showing me. I'm just trying to find a way to say it. That's not as blatant or blunt as what they're showing me. And okay, I'm just going to do it because I don't have the time to like push the foot around this. Sorry for the word. Everybody, sorry. Kitty cat foot around this. There we go. Stop. Jesus. I'm not the boss of you, but this is just the way the message is coming through. Stop trying to live like you're still 21 and get into a place that allows you to meet the people you want to meet and be in the atmospheres and the energy of where you want to be, not where you once were. If you're going to try to be in that cool or look, I'm in the middle of Miami. Ooh, you're not 21 anymore. You don't need to be there anymore. You need to grow it up. You need to sophisticate it up. You need to level it the fudge up. You need, you want this man that's all like this. You want this relationship. That's all like this. You want these people that are all like that, but you're still clubbing it.  And they are, cannot be more clear about the fact live where you want to be or how you want to look or how you want to come off to people. Stop going to, you can visit that.  I feel like that those areas for where you want to land, those areas aren't even biably safe is the term they're using. So my love, North Carolina, Florida or Tennessee, but but in a little bit more of a sophisticated area. Okay. You are so welcome. Katie have an amazing rest of the week. I thank you. Thank you. Thank you so much. Thank you so much for calling in. That was the perfect last call for the show. Everybody, I will be back Wednesday at noon. If you would like a private session, t o n i g dot i n f o or 414897269. You can call in, call me. I'll be happy to schedule that. Thank you everybody so much for joining the show, for being here. Thank you everybody who has liked and subscribed if you're listening on a podcast, YouTube or any other place where you listen to it. And thank you for watching on any of the stations, um, rude rangers, tv, w s c s or any of their stations that they send me out on. Thank you everybody so much.


Live from San Diego, California, it's theCUBE. Covering KubeCon and CloudNativeCon, brought to you by Red Hat, the CloudNative Computing Foundation and its ecosystem partners. Docker, Docker, Docker. No, you're in the right place. This is KubeCon, CloudNativeCon 2019 here in San Diego. I'm Stu Miniman, kicking off three days of live wall-to-wall coverage. My co-host for most of the week this week is John Troyer. Justin Warren's also in the house, will be hosting for me. And a big shout out to John Furrier, who's back at the corporate ranch in Palo Alto, keeping an eye on all the CloudNative stuff with us. The reason I actually mentioned Docker is because it is the first thing that is on our lips this week. Just this week, Docker, which is the company that, if it wasn't for Docker, we wouldn't have 12,500 people here at this event, really democratize containers. But the company itself built out a platform, millions and millions of companies using containers. But when the orchestration layer came in, there was some contention, there's lots of politics. I'm waiting for Docker, the Broadway musical to come out, to talk about all the ins and outs there because Kubernetes really suck the air out of the CloudNative world, spawned tons of projects here. As you can see behind us, this ecosystem is massive and swelling. Last year it was 8,000 people. A year before it was 4,000 people. So many people here. So, and John, so let's start. This is your first time at this show. You've done many shows with us. Definitely covered some of the CloudNative. You've worked with many of the companies that are in this ecosystem here. Give me your first impressions here of KubeCon, CloudNativeCon. Sure, sure. Well, I mean, Stu, 12,000 people. It's pretty crowded here. We're right by the t-shirt line on day one of the conference. Look, a conference this big, especially an open-source conference, has several, there's several jobs to be done, right? This is an active set of open-source projects in open-source communities. So a lot of the keynote this morning was updating people on details about the latest releases, the latest features, what's in, what's out, what's going on. CNCF is a very broad umbrella for a very broad number of projects. Not a coherent opinionated stack. It's a lot of different things that all contribute to a set of CloudNative technologies. So that's job one. Job two, it's a trade show and it's an industry show and people are coming here to figure out how to build and learn and operate. So that wasn't particularly well served by the keynote this morning. There's certainly a lot of hands-on this week. There's a huge number of breakouts. There's a huge number of tracks. Even day zero, which is a set of specialty breakout workshops and sessions. Everything was packed. There were over a dozen of those. So what strikes me as the breadth here is that it's a mile wide. I won't say it's an inch deep because there's some, but it is a mile wide. Yeah, John, you were right. There's so much going on. The day zero tracks are amazing. I think there were over two dozen, maybe even more of the sessions where half day or full day deep dives. Even talk, there were some other small events even that went on for two or three days leading up to this. So sprawling ecosystem. Last year at this show in Seattle, I actually said that this show is the independent Cloud show that we've been looking for. John, I was at Microsoft Ignite just a couple of weeks ago. And absolutely, Satya Nadella, they're not talking about the bits and the bites. It's Microsoft is your trusted partner for everything you're going to do, including building 50 billion new applications. Amazon re-invent will just be right after Thanksgiving and we will hear a very different message from Amazon and where they play. But this is not a company. It is a lot of different projects. The CNCF is the steward of this. And so Kubernetes is the one that gets all the attention. I think for this group to even grow more, it needs to be focused more on the cloud native con because how do we do cloud data? You know, what does that mean?  So data security, networking, messaging, there's so many pieces here. And so a lot of work to be done to mature the stack, but it definitely is getting more mature. You start hearing, you know, many of these projects with, you know, million or more downloads a month. So, you know, so many pieces. John, you know, what are you looking to dig into this week? What are you most excited for? You know, what questions do you want answered? Well, here on theCUBE, I'm always excited when we get to talk to people in production, customers really see what's going on. There's a lot of stuff in production right now, but it's not, which is not to say, a lot of stuff isn't bleeding edge, right? You, I hear a lot of stuff just out of the woodwork about things that are fragile, things that aren't ready, things that are not quite updated. And I think Kubernetes is an architectural as well as a spiritual home for everything. But there's a lot of pieces that plug in and there are opinionated ways of doing it. There are best, you know, best of breed ways. There are vertically integrated stacks. What's the best approach? It's not clear to me. I mean, if you have to look at, from a company perspective, who are the winners and losers? I don't think that's a very productive way of looking at it. I'm interested in some projects like we're going to be talking with Rancher and they've got some announcements, but I'm also interested in K3S, which is their project there. I've been hearing, you know, some really interesting things on the storage front. You know, all these things are really necessary. It's not all just magic containers moving around. You got to actually get the bits and bytes into the right place at the right time and backed up. Yeah, I love that you brought up K3S. Edge is definitely something that I hear talking a lot because if you talk about cloud native, it's not just about public cloud. Many of these things can run, you know, in my on-premises data centers and everything like that. And Edge fits in all of these environments. So, right, winners and losers, I remember two years ago, first time I got a chance to interview Kelsey Hightower, who we do have on the program. He had actually taken a couple of shows off, but he's back here at the show. I said, Kelsey, why are we spending so much talking about Kubernetes? Doesn't this just get baked into every platform? And he's like, yeah, totally. That's not the importance of it. It's not about distributions. It's not about who's who. Any of the software companies, it's how do they pull, you know, all of the pieces together? How do they add value on top of it? And one of the terms I've heard mentioned a lot is we need to think a lot about day two. Heck, there was even one of the companies that was having this space, Mesosphere, they renamed the company, day two IQ, spelled D2 IQ, no relation to R2 D2. But, you know, that's what they are focused on to help these things really go together. So, yeah, there's, you know, we talk about multi-cloud and how do I get my arms around all of these pieces? How do I manage, you know, a sprawling environment, you add edge into it? I've got, you know, a huge surface area of attack for security issues. So, you know, John, remember, cloud was supposed to be, you know, simple and cheap and it really isn't either of those things anymore. So, yeah, a lot, a lot for us to dig into. Yeah, it'll be an interesting mix. Developers, experts, people brand new, probably half the people here, they're the first time. And people coming over from the IT space, as well as people coming from the open source space. And I even saw this morning, this is the biggest conference I've ever been to. So it's all, it's a many, it's a different part to the elephant, I'd say. Yeah, absolutely. It is a good size conference, especially if they're open source, it probably is the largest. But Salesforce Dreamforce is going on this week, which is more than an order of magnitude bigger.  One other thing, you know, the CNCF, what's really interesting for me always is, when you look at a lot of these projects, the people that we saw up on stage were companies, it was the person that, oh, I started this project and I'm the technical lead on it and that's where I'm going. We've interviewed many of the people that start these projects and they come many times out of industry. It's not a vendor that said, hey, I built something and I'm selling it. It is companies like Uber and Lyft that said, we did things at massive scale, we had a problem, we built something, we thought it was useful for us. Open source seemed a good way to help us, you know, get broader visibility and maybe everybody could help and other people not only pitch in but say, this is hugely valuable and that's where we go with it.  Well, almost everybody at this conference is, you know, building software. We've heard about 30 to 40% of the people, you know, attending this show are developers and therefore many of them are going to, you know, build products. A question I have and I'll give you is, with Docker, we just kicked off talking about Docker.  So, they're not dead. There's the piece that's in Mirantis, there's the piece doing the developer piece. We wish all of them the best of luck but they had the opportunity to be the next VMware and instead, they are, you know, the company that gave us this wave but did not capitalize on it. So, you know, I look around and I see so many companies and you say, hey, what are you? Oh, we're the creators of X technology in this project and my question is, are you actually going to be able to make money and do a business or is this just something that gets fit into the overall ecosystem? John, any thoughts and advice for those kind of companies? Well, I mean, we are here, even though there's 12,000 people here, this is still very leading edge, right? This is, there's a lot of pieces, parts here. We're not sure how they're all going to fit together. A lot of the projects have come out of real use cases, like you say, but it's commercial viability, it makes them, is a different beast than utility. Docker was very good at developer experience but the DNA of actually selling an enterprise management stack is a whole different beast and there are a lot of those too. So, I mean, I think a lot of the companies here may not be around but their technologies will live on. I think if you're here and the interviews here at the show I think will be, you'll be one to have your antenna out to see like, okay, is this, you know, is this give you a feeling like this is a, solving a real problem and is incorporated in a real ecosystem? You know, the big company, it cuts both ways, right? Some of the times those technologies get absorbed and become the standard, sometimes they disappear. So, the advice is you just put one foot in front of the other and try to find people in production. That's the only way at the end of the day that you move ahead as a small company. All right, John, I gave you one piece of advice when we came here and I said, you know, one thing we don't talk about at this show, we don't talk about open stack. So, I'm going to break that rule for a second here just because I feel we have as an industry learned some of the lessons. There is some of the irrational exuberance around some of these. There's lots of money being thrown at these environments, but I do feel that we are reaching maturity and adoption so much faster because we are not trying to replace something. The early days of open stack was, you know, we're your alternative for AWS and we're going to get you off of VMware licensing and both of those things were, they didn't happen for the most part and open stack did fit in certain environments, especially outside of North America. There's lots of open stack deployments, the telecommunications environment, open stack is used a bunch. Telecom, another area, talk about Edge, that plays in here and we have a number of conversations. But there are both the big and the small companies. When I look at our list of people we're going to be talking on the program, you know, I love first the customers. We've got, you know, Fidelity, Bloomberg, Red Cross and Ford Motor Company all on the program and we've got big companies, mega giants like Cisco, Hewlett Packard Enterprise, as well as a couple of companies that came out of stealth like in the last week, including Renderer and Chronosphere. So, you know, broad spectrum of what's going on. You've done some of the open stack shows with me. You know, you've got a long community and ecosystem. Viewpoint John, what are you thinking? What are you here? Yeah. You know, this is, I guess yeah, this is the next generation. You can look at it that way. Anytime you bring together one of these open source foundations, you know, it is kind of a new style of development. You do have differing agendas. People do, again, have to have their antenna up to see is this person promoting this open source project and what is their commercial interest in it? Because there are different agendas here. But it looks pretty healthy. Look, there's probably a million engineers worldwide that are going to have to know the guts of Kubernetes. But it's a different job to be done than open stack. Open stack community is actually, that exists is still thriving. It is good for the job to be done there. This job to be done is a little different. I think it's going to be an engine of, you know, the engine that's embedded in everything else. So there's going to be a hundred million engineers that don't need to know anything about Kubernetes. But people here are the people who pop the hood open and start to, you know, mess with the carburetor. And that's, this is a carburetor show. And so for the coverage here, we're going to try to up level it to talk about the business a little bit. But, you know, it feels, this feels important. It feels cross cloud. It feels outside of any one silo. And I'm really interested to see what we're going to learn this week. Okay. And thank you, John. I really appreciate it. Right. Final, it's like, what is our job here? We are an independent media organization.  So we've got, you know, the cube and we've got the, the fun go for one, our friends at women who go that support this because, you know, inclusion, diversity, something that this community definitely embraces. We are huge supporters of there. But right, we want to be able to give that, you know, broad viewpoint of everything. We're not going to be able to get into every project. We're not going to go as deep as the day zero, you know, content with, but give a good flavor for everything going on in the show. That, you know, I've found of all the shows I've gone to in recent years, this is, you know, some of the biggest brains in the industry. There's a lot of really important stuff. So I appreciate bringing my, you know, PhD, you know, holding, you know, co-host with me, John, looking forward to three days with you to dig into all the environment. All right, so we will be wall to wall coverage. Three days, if you're at the event, we are here in the textbook hall. You can't miss us. We've got the big lights right next to the cloud, native con store. If you're online, of course, reach out to us. I'm at Stu, STU on Twitter. He's at Jay Troyer. And hit us up. See us in person. Come grab some stickers. Let us know who you want to talk to and what question you have. And as always, thank you for watching theCUBE.


Okay. So, welcome to CF versus Knative. I felt compelled to add this warning because obviously things are being recorded. So, this is not a scientific survey. I don't know if you expected that. It is not. It's not a not scientific survey. There was no surveying. Exactly. It's very opinionated. But I think it's an educated opinion. So, hopefully it will be worth your while. The other thing is we're using Knative beta code, obviously things can change. So, what we say here could actually change when you get home and you try it. And we're looking at high level features versus very detailed fine grain. So, keep that in mind. And of course, to make it fun, we have a score that we are keeping for each. So, it would be nice that exactly, keep the score in your mind, we'll reveal at the end. But it's very subjective. So, get started. Let's get started. Yeah. So, who is this guy? You. I thought I was just. No, you. Who are you? I'm Dr. Nick. I work for Stark and Wayne, which there are many people in blue suits, blue outfits, which is the poor way to introduce them because I'm not wearing the same outfit. I know. You're in red. The worst person ever. But I look more like that than I, you know, anyway, that's I look like that. And Stark and Wayne is a consultancy. We run clap boundary for you and we're pretty, pretty good at it. Yeah. And if you don't know this guy, he does so much coding. Oh, yeah. I have a GitHub account. That's right. Yeah. So, this is me. I'm not on my bike, but I wish I was. You promised to wear the outfit. And actually, after this, I'm actually going for cycling and spin. So, if you're interested that, you know, we can do this. But I work for IBM. You're not actually like, is the background real? Or are you just like on a. This is real. I was in a better shape to there. But I work for IBM and I do voice things for Cloud Foundry. So, how much, how much not better are you in shape? Oh, yeah. It's horrible. Let's not talk about that. That's quite a racket. So, the way we're going to do this is I will represent Cloud Foundry. And you will represent. Keynative. Keynative. What is Cloud Foundry?  Yes. This is some cut and paste text, whatever. It is the way in which we go through the whole cycle of looking after apps. So, new code, you go through the whole process, get it off your laptop as quickly as possible, get it into a place that will be in production because no one wants to have to hand their laptop over and plug it into the internet. That's not deployment. That's just an excuse. So, we want to get into the production and we want that same environment to be production ready. Yes. It's that entire experience. And it's the thing we all love. We're here for that, right? So, what is Keynative? We do Keyn just because to shorten the name, but it's really Keynative. And if you go to their website, you'll see that it's actually a platform built on top of Kubernetes that is targeted to serverless workloads. But the reality is you can do pretty much anything else with it in terms of the regular apps and so on. It has the word end in it. Every other word is buzzword bingo, just gold fodder. Look at that. How could you not win buzzword bingo in that sense? All right, so what's the methodology that we use? Let me give an idea of this. So, we decided the way we would compare versus sort of the very detail is to pick five high level use case that we think people are interested in, hopefully you are interested in those. And very quickly, the basic one is to create an app. Can you actually do that and how easy is that? So, that gets you warmed up. The next one is managing it. So, you want to create multiple revisions of that app. You want to be able to delete. You want to be able to scale it, to add woods to it and so on, right? So, basic lifecycle management. The routes. The routes, no woods, routes, okay. Woods, French, routing.  Right? Is that French? It is. That is technically French. So, yes.   So, the debug, that's very important, right? So, how easy it is for you to actually fix things. So, we'll look into that. And then the third part is because your app is not going to live by itself, it needs to connect to some external service. So, how easy is it for you to connect to those services, manage that connection and so on. And then finally, part of the reason you're here for Cloud Foundry is, and certainly as a member of IBM, it's certainly important for us to take of enterprising features, you know. So, how easy it is for you to take that platform and map it to your enterprise needs. So, hopefully we represent a good class. To put it into French. Yes. Step one, the four is shits and giggles. Yes. And then step five is... The important stuff. Yeah, in some ways. But... That's French. This is what we decided to use. Obviously, your use cases will vary and so on. So, keep that in mind, right? So, what we're going to do is, we're going to take each one of those use cases, go into detail and look at how each does it and then we'll have some of them as demo just because we can't do all of it. So, go ahead. So, we're going to deploy an app which many of you will be aware is a thing that you want to do. And then we have the steps, build packs and we will quickly look at that both Cloud Foundry and Knative can do things in addition to building build packs, but we want to app. And just to give away a bit of a clue, Knative and Cloud Foundry can both do this.  They do have... So, show them. Show them. I'm just so nervous. I'm so nervous. I'm going to actually deploy an app at Cloud Foundry Summit. All right. Except I'm not, am I? Because we're going to save most time. Yeah, skip that. Skip the Cloud Foundry, get to the Knative. Nothing. All right. Do the Knative one. Get to the Knative. You may or may not be aware, you can both push code that's local to you. So whatever's local up it goes, whether it's uncompiled code or whether it's a WAFAL or a pre-compiled Docker image that's on a registry. And you can do both of those things. Environment variables, you're good to go. All right, Knative. Do you want to talk through it and I'll type? Yeah, yeah. So one of the things that Knative, you know, I guess is not quite ready, but it's getting there, is there's not a very good user experience. So Dimitri Canon from Pivotal and I last year started creating a CLI. And then now there's a whole SIG or on creating an official CLI. We're still using the old CLI plus some additional stuff that Dr. Nick did to show you how you deploy. So basically to deploy from a Docker image, you just say KNCTL, so that's a tool. You deploy, pass it a name, give it an image and then target, which is an environment variable. This app is gonna take that target and replace it to say hello, right? So you can see one of the things we also do is we show the log out of that when you are essentially doing the deployment. The other way to do this in Knative without using this tool or the official client when it's ready is to essentially do a bunch of YAMLs just like you do in Kubernetes and then use CUBE CTL to do your deployment. This tool just makes it easy for you, right? So one of the things KNative can do in addition to what you can see in Cloud Foundry or it's almost like it's basic functionality is it, so in this first one we just assumed it was already built. Obviously that's not for everyone. Can you take source code and build it? Yes, you can. KNative wants to do it from a Git repo. That example is sort of skipping when the second part we've sort of shown well there is a way to do it from your local source code like Cloud Foundry. But one thing KNative can do and I know I'm supposed to be the pro Cloud Foundry person and you're supposed to talk for the other thing is that you can give it your Git credentials and it will just build for a source code. And I actually like that feature because it's one of the things I've been complaining about what Cloud Foundry cannot do is Cloud Foundry loses all context where this code came from. You go back to an app and try to figure out how to stage it, refix it, redo anything. It's like all that information is lost. Yeah, and part of the reason we have this in KNative is similar to how a lot of parts of Kubernetes is very flexible. So in KNative there's a portion of it that's called a build where you can actually create different kinds. So one of them can actually go from essentially you can provide your own build but there's a bunch ready. One of them is to be able to build from source build packs. You can actually specify eventually the build packs that are there and it will identify your source code and build. Lots of different ways to build. If you have an interest and they're actually adding a whole bunch of stuff around pipelining. Yes, which is interesting. So let's see the score. Where are we now? This is the first use case, right? This is where I take an early lead. Yeah, move, yep. So the observations, I think we covered is that they're pretty much on par except KNative has a little bit more flexibility. Right, but we rounded up so that I wasn't losing straight away. All right, so you guys keep it in your head. So it's one to one. All right, managing. This is where I'll take a further lead. So we've got- Just give it away. You keep giving it away. There's no way we get to the end of this and Claire Fandrie doesn't.  Are we working backwards?  I mean, this is a live spread. If I find out that we get to the end and it's dubious- I might have changed it. If it's changed then- Keep going. No, I live in so much doubt now. You can introduce managing. Go for it. All right, so obviously we showed you you could push apps both ways both with Cloud Foundry and KNative. But can you do more? Can you obviously do the life cycle of apps? And especially today, for instance, they showed you how you can do revisions in Cloud Foundry or at least it's coming. What about in KNative? What about scaling? All of those features that you need to do when you're essentially putting apps in production. How does that work in both Cloud Foundry and KNative? And look, if any people- By the way, the people that have decided to stand, this is optional, there are seats. These people will let you in. You will, won't you? I'm not gonna look at them weirdly. So again, we do want to spend most time showing you KNative things because that's kind of probably contextually interesting. But this is the kind of commands we're talking about with Cloud Foundry, the ability to do your push and it goes through that build pack life cycle, mapping one or more routes or zero routes that contain that. People talk about, I get very frustrated, even the CF Summit's own survey talks about, do you have containers to run? It's like, yes, I do. And where do you want to run them? And all the options weren't Cloud Foundry. Like, I can run Cloud Foundry. I can run containers on CF, they are. Like, you could do anything you like. You don't have to have a route. Go for gold. Just don't do state, but then you probably shouldn't put state on Kubernetes anyway. So restarting, scaling, and this is where we can introduce a deviation of what KNative can do that Cloud Foundry cannot. And if you want to introduce that. Yeah, so one of the things is you see we have a star and a double star and it's to mention that first, when you do a push on an app that already exists, you don't have a revision of the app. You replace the existing one. However, today you saw Ui showing a feature that's up and coming where you'll be able to specify different revisions so you can go back and forth between them, right? So that's not quite ready, but it will be coming. The other thing is in the community in Cloud Foundry, we have an extension service called App Autoscaler. It's actually used various places at SAP, at IBM and so on, where you can actually use it to do auto scaling. And it's very flexible, you can auto scale up and down. So to be fair, those exist, but they are not built into Cloud Foundry immediately. And does scale to zero? I'm not sure, actually. That's a good question. Because KNative does do scale to zero. That's right. So in KNative, when you do a deploy against the version that we just did right now, it actually will create another revision. How do I look, I've forgotten how we look this. So you can do a service list, not pod. It's called Happy Hello. So we're looking at the pods for that, and you can see there are no pods right now because it actually scaled out. And unfortunately, we didn't show you that there were pods before. Right, but we can show you now. It's like the world's worst magic tricks. That's okay. Do another... Like, where's my rabbit? Magic, no, my rabbit ran away. Whereas... Well, let's fix that. All right, so do a deployment. I love... It's a changey environment. I love scale to zero because, you know, as someone who pays for stuff, I like to not pay for stuff I was using. So scale to zero is fantastic. But let's send some traffic. So without talking about how we're gonna set up routing, there is a little built-in command where even if you haven't got routing, it can sort of... And it takes a little bit of time, you'll see because it's... It basically locks out this curl command down the point there. And it's taking time because it's pinning it up. All right. I'll do it again. Yep. And we have pods now. That's very exciting. That's right. And then if we wait a bit, it will scale down. It's five minutes and it will start scaling up. And by the way, if you had... If you all did the same thing, then it would scale up. And it actually scales up to whatever number you have. I've never built an app that had that sort of traffic. No, you could... We discussed like putting a little bash where it just spin up. Yeah. We could do that. But for the purpose of time, let's move on. The other thing, actually go back here. The other thing you can do also, which we're not showing you here because it takes a little bit of time and we have a lot to cover, is you can actually split the traffic pretty straightforward in Knative where when you have multiple revisions, it keeps track of them. Oh, there you go. We can say I want some percentage in this particular... Oh, that's right. Because we're going to do another... We're going to build another deploy, won't we? So if we do CTL, revision, lists, the minus S is service. What we call an app in sort of Knative and Knative's world is called a service. And so there is our one revision. If we go and do our deploy again... And change the environment? Yeah, sure. That's fine. Okay, it doesn't care. So now you can see revision two? This is a revision. Exactly. Because it's only... It's going to say hello to me again. You're not going to know, but we could have changed it so that the second revision now will have a different, essentially source code. And so once this finishes, is we say our revision and you can see that the route has switched over. Exactly. Which is what you would expect to expect it to work. Whilst the CNC tool itself right now does have some of the flexible routing features, what's important, and it's hidden by the cloud native Cuddle CLI, is that all of this in Knative is just, is the custom resource definitions. So we could be doing a lot of this by using the Cuddle command. And what that also means is that a lot of this functionality isn't Knative, it's Istio, which you may learn more and more about as coming into Cloud Foundry. And so a lot of these features are just playing with Istio. And you can do a lot of things by jumping down from this CLI and just configuring Istio to do all sorts of interesting routing. So there's a lot of flexibility in what you might like to do. Yeah, so let's see the score now. Managing results. So the observations are... Why did you do this? Oh, sorry, no, don't look. All right, well, so I think it's fair to say that Knative has a heads up here, right? It comes built in with scale to zero, scaling up and down is very straightforward. Certainly in Cloud Foundry, there are some of that support that's coming, but it's not there yet. Yeah, the only negative I can think is that the spitting up of pods does take some seconds. Yeah, so... We got a guy working on this to fix it. So we agreed against my wishes to do a half point for Cloud Foundry, even though obviously there's lots of features and... All right, moving on to the next one.  All right, so the next thing is the thing that hopefully you don't have to do, but guess what? You pretty much know you're gonna need... No, I had to do some research on what debugging was. I've only been coding for 20 years. Exactly, you never had to do it, but you're the exception. So things fail, how do you access the logs of them? How do you don't have to SSH it to them, but sometimes you have to do that, right? So how easy it is to do some of this work? And then Cloud Foundry is pretty straightforward. Well, these are our tools, and this is fantastic. I mean, imagine having to go find containers and like so nonsense. So we have two log commands in a way. You can have logs where it's all future logs or you can have the logs command where it's a subset of recent, not a subset, it's just some, but like a recent chunk of logs. If anyone on the CF CLI team is here, I beg you, please, when we don't ask for recent, give me some recent logs anyway. Very rarely do you say, I don't want all new logs. Don't show me old logs. Who has got that problem? Get me some old logs and then show me all new logs. And then we have CFSSH, which if you've never seen, I do have some app, an app pre-deployed. I know we skipped that a little bit, but here's my little go app. You can see it logs, in you go. You can also run a command, bit of one off, I think one off stuff. And this is nice for looking at how configuration files might have turned out. Perhaps you can run some things internally. For the sake of the video, I don't expect any of you to type this down, but we do have our old blog post. Why is this not working faster? Oh, because I ran the wrong command, I'm super sorry. That's why I kind of SSH in. Oh, and then you're there. You can NS. Is SSH pro. There's this command and another thing, I think everyone just moved on. But when you jump into an SSH session, it isn't quite the same environment that you think it would be.  So this little command, there's blog posts explaining this, but now it's a go environment, et cetera. And you're inside your app and you can look at log files. You can try to run commands that failed and that's debugging.  No, I would never. There is a blog post, but I would never come up with temp slash life cycle slash launcher. That's it. All right, very good. All right, so now let's switch to Knative. We just make it work, wouldn't you? Sure, sure, sure. Let's switch to Knative, which is unfortunately a little bit harder to do. But you can list your services logs. So logs are pretty straightforward. So let's do that. So let's clear this out. So can there's services? Service list. Service list. And this is a pattern, the command and various things. You can sort of, things are not in a happy condition right now. Because they're scaling down. Because they're scaling down, they're sort of unloved. If we were to give them a little bit of curl action. Yep. Back to that, although. Do the listing, I know. Happy and healthy again? So again, the scale up and scale down automatically, right? Knative. Oops, it can't. And then we can logs. So can CTL logs, yep. And you can follow the log in the tool, right? So if you use curl in a different window, then we should be able to see it. So when it hits it, we'll see an entry, right? Who doesn't love computers? So that's kind of nice. And then in order to actually SSH, what you're doing is you're looking at first, let me find a pod that the service is actually running on. Because when it scales down, the pod will disappear. So you need to find the current pod. Once you have that pod, then you can with cube control, exec, SH, and get into that pod. So, I guess pod list, yep. Oh, you already did that, cool. Similar to sort of the Docker exec. And then you're there, and you can LS. So you mean, now we're in the source code, right? And there's that little process running along. Perfect. Good times, good times. Okay, so let's see the results, because we were running out of time. We gotta get to the next thing. So what do you guys think? Ah, you give it away, all right. So it's about the same, right?  You just let me do this. It's okay, it's okay, it's okay. But never actually done the polish. It's about the same, all right, cool. So let's move on to the number four. Okay, so this is one where, you know, if you've been into Cloud Foundry for a long time, one of the things. We are borrowing Cloud Foundry's language here. Yeah, yeah, it's a shining jewel of Cloud Foundry. Databases, things that you get from someone else. Someone, you know, this is, I think one of Cloud Foundry's great distinctions. Absolutely. Is saying, you do apps, don't do state. You're not very good at it. That is true. You've learned node. You don't know how to look after state, all right? So we'll get some other people to do state.  Don't do any of those things. The Helm chart for MySQL does not have the word backup in it. So it says a little quick indicator of what they think about data. So anyway, services. No, exactly, yeah, and let's show how you do that in Cloud Foundry. It's beautiful. We have a few ways. Do you want me to do it? Yeah, go for it. Yeah, yeah, you do it. You've probably seen halfway down, you would have seen the marketplace and the create service thing. But just to remember, you also have what I call the Post-it node system of where someone else says, here's your database. And you can do it with setting environment variables or the cups create user provided service method that's all then with a service broker. And so you have these three main different ways. You have the other one, which is not recommended, which is where you put it all in a config file and push it. You could do that as well, but then that is not preferred. See ya. And behind all of this is our open service broker API concept. So these requests create service, bind service are going off from the Cloud Controller, off to a broker, and it's going off and doing something possibly provisioning infrastructure, definitely setting up backups. And if not, you should do backups. Backups are great. You'll love backups the moment you want them. They're like insurance. All right, so we move to Knative. This portion to do it live is a bit tedious and long, but hopefully you all have seen this. In Knative, it's, we don't have support. We're skipping the how to get services that we go through the how to use them part. That's right, that's right. So in Knative, assuming you had your service created and exposed, maybe even with Cloud Foundry, you can actually with KNC-TL access it by essentially using the M-secret. So this command where you deploy the service or revision and you pass an M-secret will actually include that as a config map for your app and then you'll be able to access it within the app. So it creates an environment variable for you to access so you can access your services that way and so on. I will quickly introduce it. That's one way to do it. If you're going into the Kubernetes world, I will quickly introduce you to the service catalog project, which is where you're in Kubernetes and you have this idea of I want services just like we do in Cloud Foundry. I want them not necessarily helm installing things on my cluster. That's not what exactly we need. I just need someone else to be responsible. That abstraction of concerns, they have that. There's also the concept of operators and this example is me, I have a broker that goes off to CF and uses someone else. So there's a talk tomorrow where if you're interested in how your Kubernetes can just go and borrow all your brokers from your Cloud Foundry, there's a tool for that and that's just a quick demo where all the credentials just come back into your pods. Yeah, and then back to this. So then we do it as an environment variable. All right, so let's see the observation and the score. So obviously that came from Cloud Foundry and Knative doesn't know anything about it, but you can still use them to service catalog and I guess environment variable. So, but it's all good. Okay, so Cloud Foundry now has a half point ahead. So that's good. Okay, now we get to the last- This is surprising. There's some enterprises. I know, I know. So this may be the most controversial one except I think it's pretty straightforward in the sense that if you're here, you'll probably form a small, big enterprise and you wanna deal with the things that enterprise deal with. So you wanna be able to deal with access control, manage your users and your groups and divide maybe your apps into your organization, make it reflect your organization and so on and isolate them to each other, right? So if you think of these as enterprising feature, what are the supports in Cloud Foundry versus what you have in Knative, so. So for the orgs and spaces, if you're not familiar or you've never really thought about why I have it orgs, two primary things orgs give you is who's gonna pay for it? That's the- Who's using resources? Or orgs are for, someone's gonna pay for it. You also get resource quotas about how not to spend too much and domains. So if you've got an outside domain, Stark and Wayne, IBM.com, I trust that IBM.com is pointing at a Cloud Foundry, a blue mix, I'm sure. That'd be where you put all your stuff. Keep doing it. That's at the org level. And then of course you can have shared domains. And then pushing Cloud Foundry at an enterprising level and look, there's a whole conference that you should go to today. You should have done that. And about all the enterprising stuff that we do in Cloud Foundry. We spent so much money and time and energy on our secrets rotations. The whole Bosch deployment ownership of life cycle, container kind of networking and isolation segments of two others that we- Yeah, those are all the features that come built in with Cloud Foundry to help you with this. It is tedious when you hear people sort of compare Cloud Foundry and things just wistfully compare them. As if to say that these things we've spent, you know. So what do you have? Amounts of time. No, I'm not going to stop. This stuff is important. You have one thing and we shouldn't even be doing this talk. This is, you can't do any of this stuff. Well, we have namespaces. Come on. Chicken giggles was the first part. Oh, you've got namespaces. Yeah. Woo. And you want to use these two in there. You can just access them. Going home. What was it? Coop control. Right. I'll teach you a nervous stupid- No. My space, my space. My namespace. And then now you can actually- I'm furious. I'm furious on the inside. So one of the things we didn't show you is every time you did your KNCTL deploy, we are using the default namespace because we're going to specify it. So one thing you can do is you can say minus n and then specify any namespace in your cluster and we'll put those apps in that namespace. So that way- I can see why I shouldn't have called it my app. That was dumb. I mean, calling it my space doesn't make it any better. Well, it already exists, right, sir? I know it died and then got revived. Et cetera, et cetera and all that other stuff. Exactly. And then now you can specify that namespace and it will segment them and so on. All right. But you're still dealing with one cluster, right? So you're not dealing with different servers. It's not isolated from that perspective. If in doubt, make another Kubernetes cluster. Yes. To be fair, the community there is working on trying to figure out how to allow you to do federated clusters, to make it a little bit easier to divide them, isolate them and so on. But it's not there at least at this point, I think. Cool. And then the Istio stuff, so if you want to have public apps versus private apps and then you'd go into the Istio. You can do a lot of that work, but you have to do it yourself. So in KNATIVE, it's not yet exposed. Doesn't mean it won't be exposed soon, but it's not at this point. So the results are in Cloud Foundry, there's definitely a lot more enterprise features in mind because it gives you first class access to those. And KNATIVE is not so much in that space, right? But you have very powerful ways of creating namespaces and labels and how you can divide your work to make it map what you need. Oh, that hurts. I haven't made a keeping track of my head. Yeah, I know. I haven't. I don't know if I'll ever keep it right here. So who wins? Woo! So based on our subjective view, at this point, we rank it this way. A winner? Fair enough, fair enough, fair enough. All right, let's conclude and see if we have some questions. Don't worry about it. All right, get to the conclusion. But that was it, wasn't it? No, there was one more site. Okay, so I think the key here is that one is mature, one is not. So in some ways, it's not a fair comparison. But yours? Because Cloud Foundry has had years to get to where it is right now, right? Whereas KNATIVE is less than a year old and if you go to the repo, it's still not ready. But the important thing is if you're all here because you like Cloud Foundry, in less than a year, here's this brand new pass that is really cool features getting very close to matching everything we have. So this is not to say it's a fight, but we can replace any other day. It's something else, right? The same build pack system, you can use that. It's same networking, the premise, you've got my traffic coming in, service on the back end, I got revisions. And it's on top of Kubernetes, which is super hot. Oh, straight to the LinkedIn profile. I mean, this stuff's great for LinkedIn. I mean, don't forget the buzzwords. Why we got all your meaning links, obviously you're not gonna click those now because that would involve you touching my laptop, which would be weird. Exactly, so we got a bunch of links. We had a couple blog posts on KNCTL, if you're interested. I think Dr. Nick had a few blog posts as well. And he has this... Yeah, I asked you, we did like, because I was interested to see how similar it was and there are like six or so blog posts in a row that go through that deploy an app. How do you do build? How do you do services and secrets and things? So check this out. And then let's see if you have any questions. There we go. We wanted to make sure we have questions. Yes, please. Lots of questions. That's a boring question, next question. No, it's not, it's not more mature than that. But I think at this point, part of what's gonna happen, you'll see, and I don't wanna make future predictions, but you'll see companies taking what is available in the community and repackaging it. And as part of those repackaging, probably adding some of those enterprise features and security as well. I mean, it's an interesting, the repackaging is interesting because there are other projects like RIF and what's IBM's? Open WISC. And there are others where as top level projects, they are built upon Knative. Knative is like, you've heard sort of Kubernetes referred to as a platform for building platforms. This is more of that. Obviously we've shown you can use Knative directly, but in part it was designed to be allowed these higher order functions. All right, any other questions? Boring or not, that's good. Come on, Jules, you have a question. No, okay. All right, so it's not out of Dr. Jules's perspective that future version of what is Cloud Foundry might use the parts of Knative. So what you're saying is there's gonna be paths on top of fires, on top of fires, on top of fires, on top of fires. All the way? It's a long question. Yeah. On the use of words and for the people watching who are not here, Dr. Jules says some really interesting things and you missed it. And... Any other questions? So one of the things this project is, if we go back to the definition, they call it the buzzword bingo slide. They talk about it as called serverless. Yes. And I think that has the word functions, but certainly the people that make it talk about functions a lot.  This looks just like a platform. I feel like they're using these words just to try to pick up a new wave and new language, but it's just... It scales down to zero, buddy. It goes to zero. That's what makes serverless? Yes. What, when you can just pack up the whole thing and go home? Any final questions or comment? Yes. For my VM, by the way, stand up. Yeah, good. Contributor and so many things, including Diego and Irini and so on. Yeah, please. You don't like to pull things? Are people at home? He never said this sort of the similar topic of whether or not we do want to keep replacing layers or whether we should own the entire stack versus Delft deferred other ecosystems. I have an opinion on this, but let's see. Oh, yeah, please. Or you can do both. Yes, that's true. Why do you have to eat or war? Maybe you do a little bit of both, right? Did you want to say something, Jules? Then Jules said nothing interesting. He didn't say anything interesting. Look, we brought in Istio. We brought in Istio. They're redoing the whole built thing and collaboration with other people. I think the way to look at it is from an economic point of view also, right? It costs money to build stuff and it costs money to have code and to own code. If you talk to Rob Me from Pivotal, one of the things he tells me all the time, I have too much code. I'm rich in code and that's a very true statement, right? And it's a very expensive statement because when you have a lot of code, so how can we reduce that so we can reuse other things? But let's see, there's a question in the back. Maybe the last one, yes, please. That's true. Yeah, it's more cost efficient. Thank you for this. Thank you everybody for joining. Appreciate it. Thank you, buddy.