We've got a cast of many, many characters up here, so I'm just going to hand it over to the panel because many people, lots of talking, good time, and you're off. The idea of the ambassadors was formulated a year ago to build on what had been running over a few years, which were the barcams, and it's our role as ambassadors for a particular region to be the ones to be the outreach for National Digital Forum and to think of what we can do for you as members in those regions. This year we've rerun barcams and what's mostly what's going to be covered by each of the ambassadors briefly is what they got out of their barcams that they ran, and then after we've done that hopefully we'll have time to talk about what's next. So I'll go from the opposite end to Amanda. I'm Amanda Kurnow, thank you. I'm from Massey University in Palmerston North and as ambassador I cover Haurifanoa, Palmerston North, Whanganui, even Taranaki. What we got up to in the bar camp this year in July we had a session on 3D printing and we had a presentation from Bronwyn Holloway Smith who presented last year at NDF I believe, and we also had Wikipedia editing from Mike Dickerson, which was those were both the really good presentations that we had, but I actually really want to use this time to pitch an idea to you, so the idea is called Pimp My Museum, it's sort of taking things into the future, but it's a mash-up of a couple of ideas, so it's leveraging the skill share that NDF have going as well as an idea I heard about recently where you have a bunch of people come together for a weekend and what they would do is they would have a museum or archive or library that needs a bit of TLC and they would brainstorm like on a Friday night about what needs to be done, you would have experts from different areas so you might have a museum person to come along look at the collections and the displays and then you might have someone looking at maybe the library or the website and you would actually get those people in like a working bee over the weekend, they're donating their time so it's kind of a volunteer thing, to actually make some real differences in a particular institution or a particular organization, so the benefits there would be getting the skill share people out into the regions and also the people in the regions could volunteer their time so they would learn from the experts and the museum itself will whatever would also have a benefit at the end so like it might, their displays might be improved or their website might be improved, so there'd be really concrete outcomes for everybody involved, so I'd be really interested to hear your ideas if you think that's worthwhile pursuing, thanks. Good morning my name is Hera and I'm from the University of Auckland Libraries and Learning Services, I'm an assistant librarian there, so I'm from University of Auckland Libraries and Learning Services, I hosted a bar camp for the Auckland region in July, we had for the morning session we have we had David Sanderson from Auckland War Memorial to talk about digital preservation which was really good and we've had quite a few good feedback from that as well. In the afternoon session we had some agendas that were created on that day, so we talked about things like copyrights, TPPA, so digitization selection appraisals, from that everyone quite enjoyed it and some were saying it would be nice to have a few more of the bar camp and also I've been asked to say push back to NDF for practical advocacy to help local institutions to work together, National Register of Digital Initiatives, so we know what others are doing on regional and national level, so what they want is they want something a bar camp but another kind of like an NDF but more a channel that we could talk in a national level so we know what we're doing not just in our region but over the whole of national glam sectors. So yes that's my feedback. Hi I'm Meredith Rimmer, I work for the Nelson Provincial Museum and I'm the NDF Ambassador for the Nelson Tasman region and I just wanted to paint a picture for you about what's happening in the digital sphere of that region because I know we all come from loads of different places in New Zealand and so some of the neat things that are happening in the Nelson Tasman region there's the Prowl website which has been going on for about seven years and there's going to be a specific presentation in this room at 2 p.m. about keeping that collaborative project going and it's a website where people can contribute their stories and their memories and photographs of the Nelson Tasman region and historic events. Kete Tasman which is run by the Tasman District Council and the Tasman Libraries is a really good Kete in that Kete suite that this country has. The Nelson Provincial Museum has a large-scale and long-term digitization project of our glass plate negative collection. It's been going for about five years now it's about 75% of the way through now and the total of the glass plates is about 160,000 glass plates and 50,000 of those are now available online through the museum's collection online database and also it's just recently started being harvested by Digital NZ as well which we've been really really thankful that we've been able to pool that resource. And I also just wanted to mention that the Nelson Provincial Museum has been playing around with its Facebook page as a way of trying to experiment with engagement and I think we need to experiment more with what we're doing. I asked around my region to say what sort of supports needed, how where people feeling they're a little bit weak with regards to digital cultural heritage and I got similar things coming back to me so I just wanted to just briefly bring them up. Digital preservation there's a concern that these are small museums and galleries and archives where you've got two or three people working doing everything in a lot of these places. The Nelson Provincial Museum is one of the largest employers as a museum in the region. The libraries are fairly well supported but the other places are actually really tiny and they're trying really hard to digitally preserve their things but they need to keep track of all the changing technologies into the future and I think there's a fear or a bit of a dauntingness with regards to that. There's a desire to work strategically across the region digitally to make sure we maybe digitize all the letters of a certain period or something to just come together more collaboratively and it makes a better sell to get funding. And oral histories also came up a lot in my region. People are concerned that they've got stacks and stacks of magnetic tapes that need to be turned into digital files. The Nelson Provincial Museum's just recently digitized all of their magnetic tapes but there's many others out there and other archives and museums in the region that are still sitting as cassette tapes and then also a worry about not collecting new oral histories that that work isn't being done and we're losing stories. And I just wanted to quickly say my vision for our future in the Nelson Tasman Melbourne region is I think we're actually getting quite good at capturing the content, the digital content of our cultural heritage but we haven't yet moved on to that engaging and playing and using it. We've stored it, we've called it but now we need to do something with it in a creative way. So that's my wish for the future. Hi, I'm Joanna Stropinski. I work at Canterbury Museum and I'm the Canterbury Rep. We had a very successful bar camp this year. Adrian Kingston came to talk to us about cataloging digital objects as part of the Skillshare. We had sessions that ranged from people just talking about projects they had to getting practical advice on maybe the look and feel of their website and we even had a mini hackathon breakout in the corner for some people. Through that we identified a series of practical skills that we all like to learn and Seismic has taken that up at the University of Canterbury and once a month we run practical skills workshops. Our next one happens to be tomorrow and it's on textual analysis. So if you find yourself in Christchurch you should come along. While our bar camp was very well attended I'm pretty sure every single person was from Christchurch. So one of the goals for the future will be to host it physically in a different location in one of the smaller towns in Canterbury. Hi, I'm Harley from Taronga City Libraries and we ran our local bar camp in August. We had people from the Bay of Plenty and the Waikato and neighbouring regions or even though we had just 18 people come. Some of the themes were around social media, different platforms that can use engagement and copyright issues. We had Matt McGregor from Creative Commons come and talked to us in the afternoon. It was really well received. One of the projects that we were launching at that time was called Taronga Transcriptions. Our library was given a collection of World War I letters which we scanned and we put up on our kit there. But then we also created Google documents that sat beside them that were open and editable, didn't require any signing in. And then we wanted to encourage our community to take those letters, open up the Google document beside it and transcribe it. So we launched that. That idea was also picked up a few years of the people who were at the conference and so maybe that will be repeated around the place. I'm very careful not to call it crowd sourcing though. And I apologise if I have called that in the past. But yeah, we thought it's a great way to get some of our older people in Taronga who can still read handwriting and want to be involved and commemorating and had maybe even fathers, grandfathers from the First World War. And weren't necessarily as digitally literate as younger generations. So we're launching that and we'll see how it goes. I'm Sabine Vever-Biet. I work for the Far North. Sorry. I'm Sabine Vever-Biet. I work for the Far North District Libraries and I'm Sabine Vever-Biet. I work for the Far North District Libraries. I'm the Systems Librarian there and I am the Northland Ambassador for the National Digital Forum. Is the Far North... I'm the Systems Librarian. I don't shout at people. Okay, shall I start again? Okay, I'm Sabine. I work for the Far North District Libraries. I'm the Systems Librarian there and I'm the Northland Ambassador for the National Digital Forum. As Far North or Northland is quite populated only in different areas, I had the privilege that I was allowed to run six workshops in all our six libraries. Now, I did heavy advertising on Facebook's personal emails. I contacted people, everything like this. But overall, I think I only had all together about 12 people turn up. Now, I think it is a great start. I came up with different concepts how we can do difference. Now, people did not know what the National Digital Forum is, so mostly I had to explain what can be done, what it is and how we, as Far North District Libraries, I took ownership of that and can help with facilitating things. I wrote a few things down and, forgive me, I'm reading them out. Out of all the sessions, the topics came up as e-book publishing, copyright issues, computing for seniors, facilitating skills, Moray skillshare program, social media for museums and archives to increase visitor numbers, empowering use, increasing museums, digital public access, mentoring program for film, movie, electronic and digital interested youth. So, I have over the whole two weeks, I had those programs kept everybody in contact with each other. I have written to people and showed them all the links to the different sites where there are videos about things they had approached up and I have also more or less said, I will come back and make a proper report and let everybody know. People who had signed up didn't turn up. People who didn't sign up turned up. So, I have included in all my emails at the end, I have included everybody who turned up and didn't turn up just to keep it all going. I do think that I have just started something. I would like to keep on going because it's, I think, a huge task to actually get the regions, especially for North up to not standard, but actually keep it going with things that are going on. We often miss out with things and I think we, yeah, need to all work together to just let people know what is going on. Hi, everyone. I'm Amy Watling. I work at the Alexander Turnbull Library in the online research services leader role there. I've been the Wellington Ambassador, the Wellington Regional Ambassador, which is an interesting concept for two years and the position will be vacant next year or whatever it is that we decide to do. So, I've had a really interesting experience being the Wellington Regional Ambassador because I think the program was conceived as, you know, there's lots of talent and interests concentrated in certain areas. And then there's people who are working very hard and there's two of them, there's five of them, and about skill sharing and getting people to those or maybe that there's a larger group and people have their own interests, but Wellington, you know, could Wellington be said to be a region in this context? But I've had a great time and I, the first year I ran a very pure bar camp, very much, I did not set any topics, I was, you know, ready for whatever came. And I got a lot of librarians to that one, and I had to convince a few people not to leave in the first half an hour because they were they were expecting to be presented to.  That was a great session, very lively. And lots of mutual learning at that one, there was not a lot of questions coming up that there wasn't one not one or two answers to in that group. And I ran a sellout session of 80, which is more to do with my presenter, who is Victoria Leachman, who ran a very practical how to copyright for for the glam sector, how to clear copyright on your collections. And she had worksheets and she had homework and everybody responded really well to that. And it was really good. And I still I still use what I learned in that session. So the next year, I unfortunately decided to get really ambitious. And I I've been very interested for about a year, and I know I'm a latecomer to this, been very, very interested in that emerging academic area of digital humanities and the use of our data and our metadata and how glam sectors, well, really lamb at this stage, but hopefully that you will come along, engaging with the academic communities on the use of our collections in a completely untraditional way, in a way that really doesn't go anywhere near the object to me. And it's I find it really exciting. And the textual analysis that you mentioned and topic modeling, all kinds. And it covers such a wide range of material. And I really I decided, well, this year, I could run another, I could run some more sort of one on one level stuff, but I really want to get into this. So, but I thought other people in the in Wellington would not know, you know, would be new to digital humanities and how it connects to to the glam sector. So I decided I'd do an expert session, which was the bar camp and the 101 session, which was a seminar. And I got three wonderful speakers, Sydney Shep, Thomas Koenske and Dr. James Smithies, who are very generous with their time. And I got 20 people, despite advertising my heart out. So that was a that was a real learning experience. And I think what happened there was that a lot of people I think saw it and went doesn't relate to my work. You know, and it was a shame because the whole point of that session was I was trying to tell people this does relate to your work. This is coming. This is interesting. You need to know the building blocks. And it was a great session. And I learned, I learned a lot and the people who are there have learned a lot. Interestingly, the expert session had 25. And I don't expect it a small group for that because we were I really wanted to get people who were in up to their elbows, and could really talk nuts and bolts with each other. So bringing the academics and the, and the Glam's people that Glam's technical stuff together. And a lot of that was still was still very building blocks. It focused around infrastructure. We were talking about delivery of data open standards. But also broader things like funding models, support, establishing centres, leadership. So that was really, really valuable. And people who had heard about each other met each other and, you know, other things like that happened. So I was really happy with that. And I think I would really like to thank James Smith's Diane with the head and let her for their support. Because it does take a bit to get off the ground. These all these sessions that we've run, you know, they will sound pretty simple at the end of it. But it's amazing how much time you put in at the beginning. Thank you. So I'm Alison Brown and I work at the University of Otago Library as the digital services coordinator. And I'm the ambassador for Otago. And when we met up at our training day, I quickly realised Southland had been forgotten. So I thought, oh, I'll pick up Southland too. And so it became that interesting communication across two large regions, which because of other things I'm involved in seem to be a normal habit. And I spent a lot of time because previously to that I had run barcamps on behalf of NDF. It became about how do I communicate to other areas of the glam that I don't have ways to communicate with. So finding people within Dunedin that could pass on the communication and say, oh, this is for you too. It's not just the librarian telling you what to do. Then I also, based on those previous experience with other barcamps, I was really thinking about giving people ideas before they turned up. Because quite often when people turn up to barcamps, they expect to present something, they expect to be experts. And it's about going, hey, here's some possible topics. But if you've got a question or something you're trying to work through, this is the time to bring it along and talk about it. And within the barcamp, I actually ran, we also threw in some five minutes on, which someone has pointed out to me ended up being more than five minutes each. And it dealt with things like tools that you can use for social media and gathering your data. We had a robot brought from the Invercargill public library that students can code. And that was lots of fun. We also had the copyright and open access manager from the University of Otago do a quiz. And everyone discovered how little they knew about copyright. So that helps say, you might think you know about it. But if you have it struggling with these questions, here's an opportunity to run a session and have someone that's delving into copyright talk about it. And then I already had figured out the overall structure and what topics possibly could be covered. But then it was that whole thing of adjusting it now. What are we going to go with and being flexible? We did have James Smithies come to our bar camp and run a workshop in the afternoon. I purposely asked James because the conversation around digital humanities is evolving. And it would be good to support that especially some of the larger institutions in Dunedin to support a lot of the researchers through the University of Otago and other research bodies. And so that did attract a couple of people and did lend itself to the point that James was off talking to one of our academics about setting up digital humanities at Otago, possibilities, maybe. And it's just trying to have those conversations. And from the day when we had the roundup at the end of what did you get? What do you want? More than one person went, we want to keep the conversation going. And luckily I'd already had conversations like, we want to run meetups. We don't know if they'll work or not, but we want to run them. And we've since had one, I need to actually use meetup software application to hopefully run in the next another one in the next couple of weeks. And part of the reason to use that beyond emails is Dunedin has a huge growing coding community. And there's a lot of people that are basing their businesses from across the world in Dunedin. And I don't know if we'll ever attract any of the coders along, but you never know. And see what happens. So for me, some of the things I'm reflecting on, but what I'm still struggling with, even just focusing in Dunedin, it doesn't seem that large. But there are a disparity in skills and knowledge between individuals and institutions. And it can also be individuals in institutions. And also the collaboration between the institutions. And often these conversations happen at a really high level, but not at an operational level. And if you want things to actually happen and change and evolve and play around with things, it's the operational people that are talking to the community can talk to the people that have their stories that want to share. So it's trying to bring those things together. So I don't think it's just at a New Zealand national level that needs to happen. And so they were the my key things that I'm building on. And also in the back of my mind is how do I support Southland? And how do those two regions work together? Doesn't mean we need a Southland ambassador or is it something we evolve towards? Because we want to make sure those in the smaller institutions and museums and libraries all feel like they've got a place that I don't have to travel a long distance to attend these things. And I did find that previously we did have more of them this time around, not so much. But it was good. It was a great experience. And each time it's a learning experience. And so all of us have produced reports of what we got out of them. We're also what we're not current today, putting in a shared document. So hopefully you guys can bring some resources. And I might throw in the link to Richard White's copyright quiz for those that didn't see it on Twitter on the day that it happened. And you can test your knowledge. And so I'm going to, before we hand out for questions and requests of what you think we should be doing as your ambassadors, I just want to reflect back on some of the things that was posed in the AGM this morning. So I'm going to look to Amanda. Well, you raised it last night with Chris. And then we raised it at the AGM of what more can NDF do to support the ambassadors, to support our members to evolve and become more in what we're doing with our collections and engaging our communities. Can you? Right. So we sort of talked about communications really key. Getting people to talk to each other from different sectors and different associations even.  It's sort of like splitting the vote type thing. But also making sure that people are aware of the key, the other key people to talk to and the other kind of key events. So don't have barcamps for NDF and then maybe something else for ARENS at the same sort of time. What else did we talk about? There's also a number of national bodies, which I cannot remember right now what they're called, where they're actually already going out to the regions. And I think in museums that's one of those examples. And it would be good for NDF to help the ambassadors coordinate with all those different national bodies that already have a mandate to go out and talk about preservation. And so there's a few conversations around we want preservation. Well, there's already bodies within the National Library. Yes, it's a small team, but how can NDF help the ambassadors to maybe get something going? And we didn't really talk about it, but a couple of us have talked about finding ways to not just run meet-ups, but running events throughout the year. Is there a way that maybe, like with Victoria, where she ended up going around the different regions and presenting the same sort of workshop to continue that going so it's not all about an individual ambassador in a region or regions trying to come up within these themselves, even if they're talking to others. Because there may be others that someone in NDF or someone in one of the national institutions know about that would help meet that need. And then it could just be this person over a week goes to four regions. And then it just helps building up those skills and then hopefully bringing those into those sessions that would normally not go to a bar camp. Don't think it's in their job, but if they went along they would realise yes this is what you should be thinking about in your job. I think one of the things is having purposeful conversations and making the time to just get together face to face. And it's something that through our just our working society we don't do much, but I think specifically with this creative digital stuff you've got to throw ideas out there and talk with each other and see each other and see hey what I'm working on might that matches with what you were talking about that's amazing maybe we can turn that into something in three years time. But it's got to start from somewhere and I think one of the things that I really enjoyed at the end of our bar camp everyone again like I think everyone on this table had that feeling that people wanted to continue those conversations in the region. And we did a meet-up as well at a collective a bridge street collective cafe type group working meeting place again I was trying to attract those coder IT people just hang out where they are and maybe osmosis will happen. Because and like with you Amy you were saying that you were attracting I wrote it down Glam technical staff I don't have any Glam technical staff who were focused on the creative side of the Glam industry we've got the hardware software technical staff but not people who were doing that creative app building website development type thinking in in my region. I actually had and I've gotten about that quite a few people mentioned to me but yeah forgive me why is nothing ever coming like national digital forum to northland or far north. So the idea is still that I will run a seventh workshop in the fungalware library and maybe get a skill share person and and then we invite everybody who had came to on those far north sessions to that just as like a little start and maybe see where we can go from there then. Questions it's not a question so much as offering a service you're just talking about the outreach services available. I work for one of them and we're always I'm working for national services to Padangu which is the museum sector support team based here they're also outreach services at National Library and Archives New Zealand. We're always really keen to work with people and we all also run workshops regionally so let's talk about that because we can help you we can partner we can promote we can you know get expertise so really happy to help I just wanted you to know I'm here thanks. Hi Philippa from Museums Aotearoa just following up on that conversation which which you mentioned from the AGM this morning and what Tamara has just said about national services just listening to what you've said is as feedback from the regional barcamps it seems to me as though different regions do have slightly different needs and some might have more available skills on the tech side and some more on the content management side some more on the creative side so I think probably what would be most helpful would be some way of bringing that feedback into some sort of national kind of bring it together and see what are the national needs. The reason that one of the reasons that Victoria Leachman's copyright sessions were so popular is that they do crossover the people who are interested in the digital the people who are interested from the collections or audience engagement side of things so there's a lot of crossover but there are probably other topics which are much more specific to some particular subgroups of this broader glands and some which is specific to the NDF type community and others which is specific perhaps to the library community or the museum or the gallery community so I think the important thing is to have the conversations and to make sure that the the major kind of institutional players are really involved both at local level and regional level but really important for you who are the people who are talking to those groups on the ground to feed that back somehow. Each of the ambassadors need to do a report at the end of a bar camp and they talk about how many people they got what sectors they came from what they talked about and things so we do do a report so I don't know whether that and that goes to the person that looks after the ambassadors so I'm not sure how they would perhaps disseminate that. I'm from Palms North Library I'm not a librarian I work as an analyst but this is my second year here so I see a lot of hard work put in by each community and a lot of initiative is taken but again as I just hear like you reported back on the output outcome of the event so what I'm looking at is I don't know why it's a problem but I see like it's there's a need to standardize the steps that are taken so that like there's a better use of best practices and like so if I see like okay for Palms North this is a challenge so if I have a location when I can see okay which community has done this so I can like communicate with them and say like oh how do you do this so they'll say oh we tried this this this and then we can share from them and I have come to this conference just to like see what's happening and talk to people I have some problem that I am looking for some solutions so this is a great opportunity to mingle and share but I'm an expert in excel more intermediate level so if somebody comes and ask for can he help me with this report so I can just do it in a within a minute so again one of my colleague Lee Thoros like he started a very good concept of skill sharing and last year like I went for that short dating like you talk about what is your expertise and people just spoke to me about how they digitize their expert in that but again nobody spoke to me about what they want from me so the point is like we have wealth of knowledge and expertise the only worry for me is like do we have a structure which enables everybody to use that strength and like minimize the weaknesses so I'm sure like they're thinking ahead on this but I just want to know like if there is will that come into picture soon or um I I don't have the answer to your question but I do think it's a really good point and there is that skill share set up which I don't know if you've seen it there's part of ndf you can get it off the website it's maybe a half page it looks lovely and it lists maybe 10 people at the most experts in their field they're probably they're all here at the conference and they they offer to come to your area and help you formally in whatever area that they're experts in as well as offering other support and that's lovely it's very high level support and maybe what you were suggesting is adding on a second tier of support where for example at my museum we've got that big glass plate negative digitization project we hope that we're pretty good and could offer some really good practical advice on setting up a project like that so maybe something a second tier not we're not going to fly over to to your place but we'll certainly have a conversation and offer advice and support so I think that's a really really good point I think in that regard it becomes a way to you know you could follow up with hey do you want to connect via skype or do you have any documentation you can share with me and I think from the other side that if you're looking to work on something you haven't worked before and you're trying to figure out your infrastructure use actually the NDF Lumio discussion forum to say I'm about to work on this has anyone worked on this say you get people that are trying to look for solutions and then you can respond to that issue they're having all that experience go hey you should look at this and just provide that so make the most of the discussion forums currently it's it's for members but it's that's generally how I've been contacted through different forums you know I'll put my hand up if you're looking at different repository platforms I'm figuring out which one over the other one with open repositories I've got lots of experience but I don't think I could do Skillshare but contact me so I think yeah it's that lesser list but also saying to you as members if you're planning to do something share it on Lumio if you can and hopefully someone can give five years ago we went through this this is our big lesson out of it and we found this tool really good so communication so I was just going to say I think your idea about having a like a second tier register of expertise in the local region is much less intimidating than having some quite high-powered person from Wellington come along um that would be a really good idea and then you could say oh I'm doing a digitisation project whatever I just need a camera recommend a camera to me you know just something small it doesn't need to be big it doesn't need to be you know what is my strategy for digitisation so that's a really good idea thanks for bringing that up I'm Hi Sabine I just wondered if you could tell me the kind of challenges you have in the far north well I don't know where to start and I don't mean that in any way it's no I had been very successful putting stuff on the local Facebook pages where I had heaps of conversation going and people really interesting in asking questions most people took I think the unconference or bar camp as the biggest issue they couldn't understand so I at the end changed everything just to like a workshop let's have a workshop if you have ideas just bring them along um I think it's connecting to people it's con that's it's like keeping I had okay I had one lady come to one of the workshops um who says like look I really like what you're doing there would you be prepared to come to one of of Marais and I said like I think I need to clear it with my managers but I think we can do that because she said like I don't think that any of those people I know from the Marais would ever come to any of those workshops because it doesn't first of all you keep it in the library it's very yeah not very comfortable for many Maori people um it's a bit of a tourist spot so um I think this grass root thing I really like using it I think grass root we have to be in far north far more grass root and go out I think us librarians in the far north have a I think yeah we have we have to do I believe like more yeah do more by going outwards and I have spoken to my manager I'm often about this I think we need to be more more ambassadors for the far north not just national digital forum just ambassadors just to try to get information out and connect people I think and I'm not trying to say anything negative it's just this is just my my ideas is not here I have to say that I've run into constant issues with that term bar camp and I mean I'm not saying everyone at the Otago bar camp had a problem with it but it's like what why am I sending staff to this foot so it's it's trying to find a brand of having gatherings and whether it's a workshop whether and not just resting on hey this has worked all right in the past we should keep doing it it's just asking that constant question and responding and it may be that continuation of the some regions it works for others it doesn't how can we support a variety of events and activities happening in the different regions I definitely agree with the questioning over the name of bar camp or on conference that's definitely really confusing to both management and people coming outside they just they don't understand what it is just workshop or meet-up would be better it's literally you have to come to one before you actually understand what it means yeah I just completely dropped the term from my publicizing and just called it a gathering and also I found the term national digital forum doesn't mean anything unless you know what it means so I had to put a lot of kind of filler things cultural heritage digital gathering sort of filler words so that it made sense in in my publicity and in my email and when I was talking to people about what we were sort of trying to offer if you're in the know it makes sense but if you're not it doesn't make any sense at all burning questions ideas random concepts I'm Lee Reid from the Dunedin city council and I know that we don't kind of fit in the glam sector as such especially my role on the digital services team leader so I'm in charge of the information management side I also maintain archives our intranet and our GIS so my role is quite different from what a lot of people here have to do but also it means I've got fingers in a lot more of pies than what most people do so on a day-to-day basis I might be doing five or six different roles when I first attended a bar camp I found that the best thing I got out of it was I'm actually no more than I thought I did and that I could provide a lot more assistance and help to people so it was really good for me from that perspective that I got to meet people that I didn't necessarily get to interact with on a day-to-day basis who were in my industry and I think you need to really focus on that and raise that level as well because a lot of people will think that this kind of thing is targeted at specific people in specific areas and I had a concern about coming to this conference that I might not fit in that it's a little bit you know out of my league that kind of stuff but I've found I've been pleasantly surprised and yeah I just think maybe don't target it so much for those specific glam areas to look outside the square especially if you're looking for coders and stuff like that IT people the IT geeks won't go near this if it's Glam's so maybe I don't know as an idea probably spread your net a little bit wider looking for skill sets rather than specific kind of industries I think if you've got if you've got a wealth of expertise and different types of people in your organization or in your sector then you're kind of safe but in the regions we don't have that and yeah we absolutely do need to look outside collaboratively not just with the galleries the libraries the archives and the museums but with all the other organizations and businesses in the region and just try and find those joint joint collaborations where everyone's going to win because we don't have the resources or the skills to do an absolutely A1 awesome job got the passion but yeah gonna need help with my bar camp conference gathering thing that I organized I specifically in the morning I did presentations and I specifically asked IT people to come and present because I knew they weren't going to come just to be part of the afternoon session but I knew they'd come if I asked them to present and they did and it was wonderful and one of them even brought a virtual reality headset that we all had to go on in the afternoon and that was really really fun too I think there's a lot of untapped potential between people who can who have the technological know-how and who can code and create create stuff digitally and then us who've got the content and the passion and we've really got to work creatively and hard to get them together and it's a money are they a business so we're not a business how can we get that working together has anyone else had any collaborations between external app developers or website developers or has it all been in-house anyone that's already on hi hi I'm Vicks I'm here self-funded but one of my projects at the moment is for regional facilities Auckland a council-funded entity so we have series of business units that give experiences for people in Auckland like Auckland Zoo Auckland Art Gallery and so on and I've met some great librarians from Auckland Auckland libraries today at the conference I don't know how other regions work but what's been quite interesting for me is that and somebody at Auckland Art Gallery said it to me well it doesn't matter what budget line it comes out of it's all ratepayers money anyway isn't it and I was like yeah because we are a completely separate entity so this you know I'm an IT person and I haven't thought to come here but probably I would say for other sort of entities yeah those connections and like you've done reaching out to IT people we currently have a program of work we have an open source vendor doing an API for us for our first Auckland Art Gallery will be the first website for it but I know there are other projects that my colleagues with an RFA and also a council are working on around other digital channels and there's just I mean probably Auckland's a bad example because it's so huge but there might be even in the smaller areas there's all these pockets of projects and money that comes even not from council but other donors and so our plan at RFA is to slowly slowly as we have a success celebrate that and hope that people will come and be attracted towards us and instead of maybe building a micro site with some money they got for an advertising campaign out of a marketing budget that they might come and reuse our capability so yeah another IT person I think I've entered that couple of conversations I've now got my favorite thing to say bring code and content together probably one more time for one more I'd just like to really support the idea of working with councils no seriously because because the councils are primarily funding all the glam sector and they've got the expertise on in-house a lot of the time and so working with the people who actually do the back of house stuff for the councils as well as working with the front-facing institutions like the libraries and museums and galleries is really really important so yeah definitely work with councils please thanks thanks for that comment one of the one of the themes in our particular camp was that we had people from quite a few different regions there they often felt crowded from from high levels they felt they were working in risk-averse environments and if we can get councils talking to other councils saying hey what are you doing in your council about promoting your collections you know getting new things started then maybe we can start to break down some of that conservative risk-averse in spirit if you like that the creative people are chafing underneath with so you know spread that word and get them thinking yeah that's that's a cool thing for councils to do I think it's going to come upon us before we know it I just took from Andy Neil yesterday morning how he said it's going to be upon us before we know it I think you know the technological advances are coming like a tsunami and you know in two years time we will be having completely different conversations potentially about the types of ways we can experience our cultural heritage and it will be real we'll really will be doing these neat things can I ask a question so I just want to know like do we have any benchmarking like what I'm interested in is like for my community or my where I work like how can I say that I'm at a particular standard in terms of digital innovation so I'm not trying to like bring in the competition but I just want to see like of all the communities like which company is doing better and like it's more like looking at positive deviations and see like okay they're doing better because they're doing XYZ so is there any benchmarking or a way to know like where we stand or what is our target because we are putting in effort year after year and they talk about digitization so many thousand they have done 50,000 so I don't know like is it good bad or what are we heading to I'm not aware of any benchmarking system I think it's just talking to each other and general reputation that people seem to be better in areas some areas and worse in others maybe that's another thing to share we use this standard well I mean there are there are sort of international collection standards and things that are available and national services to Paarangi have all this the standards listed on the website and available in other places but kind of competing type things no I don't not aware of anything like that and it's so different too we've all got different strategies different collections we're not just chasing the numbers is that something that the India Awards will provide for us and that they will hold up exemplar projects and they'll be they will be something we agree rather than our management or a funding body or a standards body has ticked boxes but this is one that the community has said this is top notch yes please one more question thank you very much my name is Eric Boama having listened to the various briefing of how your back camps went I started asking do you all have the same topic to discuss or you have different topics and if you had different topics is there a way of sharing what you discussed with other back camps in different regions because I realized that most of the problems you mentioned relates to participation and low numbers of people attending and I like you have discussed if you want more people to come you don't have to do it make it as one of thing you should know your the people within your group and make the meetings regular and usually not making it as formal so that people usually within formal settings people can't get the ideas to share but when it is informal ideas will come so if the meetings are regular and you share among what is happening with South Ireland North Ireland knowing what is happening with others will encourage the sharing of ideas that's what I was thinking I'm just just thinking about the fact that we all did reports and some of us shared what we had gathered amongst ourselves and I mean maybe it's one of the things we could work on is pull out some of that stuff and say these are the things we were talking about these are the solutions we thought of and just figuring that it's something we could work over the next couple of months I'll say that for me right now and also I didn't say at the beginning but actually a targo did quite well with numbers and it was the first time we reached over 30 people turning up and we had a very diverse group of people and I think that was because I handed on communication to people who work in museum people who are archivist and just and then had that you don't have to come with a plan an idea but if you've got a question you need to participate and just try to spend a lot of time explaining bar camps and talking to a lot of people going you should come to this thing and I think it's just a it's an ongoing process so yeah we have a base camp site that we use so we can use that perhaps more guys to talk to each other about stuff we use we often do collaborative notes online so that's another way that we can share with each other and with the community at large and post the link to those notes as well and the meet-up idea where we can you know we can have those regularly throughout the year and also if the burden isn't on the ambassador necessarily to always be there because like as people say life gets in the way sometimes so if there's a small crew of people in an area that just sort of regularly turn up at least that gets things going I suppose we will did anyone actually add we had a shared document in case we missed it didn't cover anything today has anyone actually added content to that yet? Okay so we will share out via Twitter but we'll we'll write it up later on the link to that because like I said I'm also going to throw the link to that quiz on it and we'll make it an open editable document so you can post your questions but just for now I suggest moving towards Lumio forums to keep the conversations going so that brings us to the end of this session but it doesn't mean the conversations end keep them going if we're your ambassador come and talk to us be our friends help us out especially if there's something you want us to do for you and if you'd like to be an ambassador oh and if you'd like to be an ambassador Wellington Southland and it's one of those things it's we won't just dump you in it if someone takes over from me I won't dump you in it I'll mentor you through the process but it's a building area of knowledge and let's see what we can make of it and help us make it as much as important as possible to you on your needs


dedicated to the strength of the nation. Proudly, we hail. Greetings from Hollywood, ladies and gentlemen. This is C.P. McGregor speaking. Welcome again to your theater of stars, Proudly, we hail, the United States Army and Air Force presentation. And starting the first of the year, a full half hour. Well, football is king with the playing of bold games from coast to coast. And our story today concerns a very particular football. It's called Touchdown, and it stars Ralph Morgan as Father Donnelly. And now, act one. Father Donnelly in the Church of the Blessed Sacrament had known each other a long, long time. And the good father had cherished a dream throughout that long acquaintance. That's why he looked forward with keen anticipation for the arrival of a very important visitor that morning. And as he sat in his small-need office, he was oblivious to everything, even to the sound of the boys playing football in the yard outside. As he waited for the knock on the door for Mrs. Wilkins, his housekeeper, announcing his visitor. Father, it's Mrs. Wilkins. Well, come in, Mrs. Wilkins. I have a casualty, Father. Casualty? Where? It's me, Father. Well, now tell me what you think you are. Johnny Lou Jack? I'd like to be. Well, I dare say your nose isn't in agreement with your intention. Let me see. Let me see the iodine, Mrs. Wilkins. Yes, Father. And where do you have to come bother with me when I have important things of my own? It's your cloth, Father. Your reverse to the weak side didn't work. They smeared me. Yeah, so I see. Well, you must have took it off, then. My reverse to the weak side is a perfect play. Well, it's a perfect play. But the other team knew all about it. Well, then, both sides are even. Here's the iodine, Father. Now, thank you. Oh, still, boy. Ah, there now. That sting. Now, I think it can go back into action. Thank you, Father. What were you boys playing football for, anyway? I thought you told me a car and over your ball yesterday. We got another ball. I borrowed one. You borrowed one? Yes, Father. Well, you'd be sure and return it. No kicking, mind you. I want none of my windows kicked out, like last week and the week before. Yes, Father. Now scamp along with you and don't play too rough. You're on good care for business this morning. I want nothing to distract you. I'm here to the window. I think it's him now, Mr. King. Is it really? Where? Down there. He's watching the boys play in football. He seems pleased, doesn't he? That's a good sign. Yes. Well, Mrs. Wilkins, hold a good thought for me. I will, Father. I'll go downstairs to meet him. All right. Well, good morning, Ted. Good morning, Father. Come in, will you? Say, isn't that a sight out there? The boys play in football? Yes. And how they play? Rock and sock. And Ted, did you see that nephew of mine, Jimmy? That nose. We just performed a little repair job on that nose. Reminds me of the Northwestern game, Father, many years ago. I got a shoe right on my face. And you could count the cleat marks for a month. Great game. Well, well, Ted, I think it does build character. Bills, bone, and muscle, too. You know, Father, I was thinking. It's a shame for boys to have to play on that gravel out there. They should have a field of their own. That's right. They should. Now, I've got a lot up here, about four blocks, doing nothing but bringing in tax bills every year. I'm going to turn it over to them. And in a week's time, they'll have a real football field. Ted, that's indeed a wonderful thought. And I am so glad you came over this morning with charity in your heart. Yes, Father.  Is it the furnace? No, the furnace is working quite well. Is the roof leaking? No, it isn't the roof. Well, what is it then? Ted, I know you're a very practical man. And I try to be the same. The parish is now in better condition than it ever was. And I have waited until conditions were right before even thinking of what I'm about to request. What are you getting at, Father? You see that window there? Yes. When we built the church, that was to be a unique part of its beauty. But we ran out of funds. And I suppose it has been forgotten by most everyone but me. I want to change it. Change it? What's wrong with it? Glass is good. Gives plenty of light. Ted, I have long dreamed of a beautiful stained glass mosaic window. And you are the only one in the parish you can put it there. Well, are windows safe around here with kids playing football? You just solved that. But these things cost a lot of money, don't they? Oh, I don't want the most expensive, mind you. As a matter of fact, I can get a very beautiful one installed for around $200. $200 for a window? But this will be a very special one. And the light and the colors, I'm sure, will bring inspiration to many. That is probably very true, Father. And it has been such a long, cherished dream of mine. I can understand that, too. Father, I don't like to let you down on any request. I know that. But you hit the nail on the head a minute ago. I am a practical man. I've always lived by the practical rule. And I just can't see putting out that kind of money for a window, even if I might have the money. Of course. Now, if the heating system goes on the blink, termites get into the floor. That's fine, fine. Call me. I want you to call me. Well, I better get down to the office. Yeah, it is getting late. Well, goodbye, Father. You understand my logic, don't you? Oh, yes, there's logic in many things. Many things. But look at those kids go, rock and sock, rock and sock. Well, Father, what did he say Mr. King say? Well, Ted wasn't of the nine four windows this morning. Oh, I'm sorry, Father. No, now don't you fret. Perhaps he was right. It does love children. Look, he's stopping to play with them. He's going to carry the ball. He'd better watch out. He'd better watch out. He's down on the ground. Mr. King is laid out. Come on, Mrs. Wilkins. We have another casualty.  Hey, it wasn't our fault, Father. No, then whose was it? It was yours. Mine? Sure. Uncle Ted tried your reverse to the weak side. Ho, ho, ho, ho, ho. Pause briefly from our story touchdown starring Ralph Morgan to bring you an important message. Men, you high school graduates can have your choice of training in the army. Yes, and you can make your selection before you enlist. A three, four, or five year enlistment in the regular army means you can choose the skill or trade that appeals to you and be assured of receiving that training. If you're not accepted for the army technical school of your choice, you're under no obligation to enlist. And don't forget this, men. That high army pay starts the day you sign your name on the enlistment papers. Listen to this list of some of the things you can learn. Radio, electricity, refrigeration, automotive mechanics, engineer drafting, watch repair, and nearly 100 more. Take advantage of this opportunity, high school graduates. Ask your local army and air force recruiting officer for the details today. Then let him help you make out your application for army technical training. And now act true of touchdown starring Ralph Morgan as Father Don Lee. Ted King, the second casualty of the day, has been revived and sent shakily to work. It is afternoon. The boys are back for another game with the football Tim had borrowed. In the church, Mrs. Wilkins knows what occupies Father Don Lee's thoughts. Father, can't I fix you up something to eat? No, thank you. A sandwich, perhaps? You barely touched your lunch. I am not exactly hungry, thank you. It's the window, isn't it, Father? If I just had the money myself. Now, now, if it were meant for us to have it, Mrs. Wilkins, I'm sure the Lord will provide a way. Well, what's that? I sure enough kicked the ball through the window again. Well, this is the last time you'll have the opportunity. Come on now, which one of you did it? Speak up. I did, Father.  Yes, Father. And you couldn't pick out just what I may play in ordinary windows. You had to pick out the one which someday I hope would be the beauty spot of the church. I'm sorry, Father. Of course you're sorry. And you should be. You promised me no kicking. Run and tackle. Rock and sock, but no kicking. Well, there's only one thing I can do. Oh, no, Father. Yes, I'm afraid so. No more football on the ground. But, Father. Now it isn't as much of a penalty as it should be. Your uncle Ted is clearing off a lot in the neighborhood. A new football field will be ready in a week. Oh, boy. Now I'll be running along with you. Come on. But, Father, the ball. You cannot have that until the field is ready. But, Father, I've got to have that ball. Not for that. You cannot have it. And believe me, I am man to lose myself in emotion. And when I dare say there's a marked possibility that out of the trouble I've had today, I burn that football up in the incinerator. It's hour of the evening. Where is he? Where's Father Donnelly? Well, he's in his office upstairs. They did break the window, didn't they? Well, yes, but... That's great. That's great. I thought it might have been something else. I thought maybe they lost it. Who is it, Mrs. Wilkins? Oh, well, Ted. Hello, Father. You didn't burn it in the incinerator, did you? Burn what? The football to me kicked through your window. Oh, no. It's up on my desk. Oh, Father Donnelly.  I am? You most certainly are. And I'll tell you what. I'm going to replace that window with the best stained glass window money can buy. Well, bless me. This is some sort of a miracle. What relief to get that ball back? Timmy went up to the house. My wife ups and gives it to him. But what is so unique about that football? What's unique about it? That football. That football, Father. That was the ball I kicked the field goal with that beat Michigan 20 years ago. The curtain falls in the final act of touchdown. Our star Ralph Morgan will return for a curtain call after this timely message from Wendell Niles. You men with former service in the armed forces, you can choose your theater of service in the Army or Air Force. You can select assignment to Europe. Or you can, at your request, be assigned near home in your own army area for at least a year. Or else, and this goes for non-veterans too, you can enlist for direct assignment to Japan or Korea. Get complete details right away from your army and Air Force recruiting officer. Now here again is our star, Ralph Morgan, and our producer. Ralph, you've given us a delightful portrayal. Many thanks. It's indeed a privilege, CP, to appear on proudly we hail. And I'd like to add my own nice going on the new half hour format. Thank you very much, Ralph. When's the new show start? The first show will be released the week of January the 15th. Well, that's good news for the new year, particularly when it concerns a show doing a job as such a worthwhile sponsor. And they don't come more worthwhile than Uncle Sam's army. That's right. And now, CP, your audience will want to know who's starring on your next show. Next time, ladies and gentlemen, we have a delightful comedy on tap for you titled, Bury Me Not. And our star will be that clever and versatile young motion picture actor, Donald O'Connor. Make plans now to be with us next week. Again, thanks to Ralph Morgan, who appeared to the courtesy of the Hollywood Coordinating Committee, which arranges the appearances of all motion picture stars on this program. Remember, proudly we hail will soon come to you a full half hour long. And now until next week, when proudly we hail presents Donald O'Connor, this is CP McGregor saying thanks for listening and cheerio from Hollywood.


Okay, so with no further delay, I'm going to introduce Charles Swanton. Charles Swanton is a medical oncologist, but is also a leading researcher at Cancer Research UK, and he has been the one who triggered that heterogeneity issue, and we are really sampling the terms of kidney cancer because it puts RCC in the limelight of all cancer biology, and we are pleased to listen to you. To follow that up, kidney cancer is actually quite an extraordinary disease, and to study it has proven, I think, quite fruitful, from a simple perspective of this, is that studying kidney cancer revolution is a lot more simple than studying lung cancer revolution, because the disease is much more genomically stable, so that gives us an opportunity to really understand cancer biology in general, I think. So I'll try and illustrate some of the work that James Larkin, my colleagues in London, and various very supportive surgical colleagues at the Marston and Guy's Kingston Thomases have been helping with over the course of the last year or two, specifically. So the implications of the therapy and outcome, I think, are the following when we think about heterogeneity. So we see heterogeneity both between patients with the same histological subtype of disease, be that breast cancer, ER negative breast cancer, or clasile carcinoma of the kidney. We see heterogeneity within tumors, so-called intratumor heterogeneity that can be regionally separated. And we see heterogeneity at down at the single cell level, where we're beginning to appreciate that even within a tumor, every tumor cell may be subtly different and differed by distinct genetic events. And I think answering one of Lawrence's questions earlier, we have known about genetic heterogeneity for 30 or 40 years. It's just current technologies enabling us to explore and decipher it at much higher resolution than ever before. So our venture into this field started about four years ago, when we set up, set about trying to address or identify in the context of a Framework 7 consortium with the Institute of Gustaf Roussi and the Royal Marsden and ourselves at Council Church UK, biomarkers of response to antigenic therapies, as well as mentor inhibitors. And to do this, we had to sort of take the fundamental premise that if you take one biopsy of a tumor, that biopsy would be representative of the entire genomic landscape of the patient's tumor. So we did the simple experiment where you take 10 biopsies from this patient that's refracting me as well as this perinephric metastasis and chest wall metastasis and sequence every gene in the human genome, all 22,000 genes, at about 100 X coverage, which means we try to decipher somewhere the heterogeneity within an individual biopsy. And what we found is that only about a third of mutations shown in this heat map in red are present in every region of the tumor. And about two-thirds of the mutations present, these are coding mutations across the genome, are present in one region but not another, suggesting that majority of mutations in a single biopsy are not going to be present across every region of the tumor that we analyze in this disease. Now the question we're really keen on answering now is, is this a trend or is this the norm in kidney cancer, and more specifically, are we likely to see this effect in other tumor types as well? I'm afraid I don't have answers to those questions, but we've got some early insights into clear cell carcinoma biology, both sporadic and more recently, germ9-VHL associated, which I'll show towards the end. So the first observation is in the first 10 patients we've looked at is that we see branched evolution in every case. So what do I mean by branched evolution? What I mean is that these tumors essentially are heterogeneous. That is that we see regional separation of mutations that are present in one region but not another. So in this case here, we see clear separation of the metastatic sites from the primary regions, and they share a common clonal origin, in this case, like all sporadic tumors that we sequenced so far. A second hit in VHL, either the first hit being VHL mutation, the second hit being 3P loss of heterozygosity, which is where VHL is encoded. So we see branched evolution in the first 10 patients we've sequenced with clear cell renal carcinomas as sporadic disease. And the intriguing thing is that each patient has a different phylogenetic tree, a different tree shape. And I think that tree shape ultimately, it's going to be quite interesting to address what is the relationship between the shape of the tree and the patient's subsequent disease course. Because one of the hypotheses we have is that patients with more simple tumors like this with limited branched evolution and limited heterogeneity, limited diversity, may fare better and have a better disease course than, let's say, this patient with a bow-bowl tree-like tumor, which is branched almost from the moment it's seeded, as it were. And these very heterogeneous tumors, we wonder, may have a worse prognosis. And that's something we're planning to address in the context of a longitudinal study between guys, Tim O'Brien and the Marsden, David Nicoll and James Larkin. So I've shown you ever as for what we call, what Darwin called, microevolution, and we're just simply poaching his terms. And Darwin really argued that nature never makes major leaps in Latin, nature alone, facet sortum. And he said that profound change at a population level is the result of a very slow but continuous process. So in the case of genomic evolution in the cancer, we can think about that at the single gene level, where a single gene, single point mutation over time accumulates with many other genes to lead to profound change in clinical behavior, perhaps. And these gradual accumulation of the small mutations of the major driver of change, and that's been elaborated in neo-Darwinism theory over the last 40 or 50 years. But the challenge, I think, as we look ahead, is this one of cancer macroevolution? So what do I mean by macroevolution? Well, this chap, Goldschmidt, was a sort of pariah of evolutionary biology in the 60s and was ostracized from most of the major Ivy League universities, as well as Oxbridge in evolutionary theory. Because he proposed that speciation was driven by macroevolutionary changes, that is, changes in whole chromosomes or parts of chromosomes that lead to the origin of new species. And these rare events result in profound change. And he coined this phrase, which led him to be a sort of a laughing stock with the evolutionary community, called Hopeful Monsters. And he published this book called The Material Basis of Evolution. And unfortunately, because of this term, Hopeful Monsters, he was ostracized from the evolutionary community. And his very valuable thoughts in this book have been rather marginalized. So why do I think these thoughts are valuable? Well, the first thing is that in this book, in Figure 35, he draws this picture here of simple chromosomal rearrangements that he'd observed or was beginning to observe in nature. And we see these chromosomal arrangements time and time again, not just in kidney cancer biology, but in all tumor types we look at. And he postulated that this macroevolution must proceed by a different genetic method rather than single point mutations, but through the rearrangements of serial chemical constituents of the chromosome, essentially. So why does any of this matter? Well, it matters because we see chromosomal aberrations time and time again in pretty much all solid tumors. And these can be chromosomal instability, in terms of structural and numerical abnormalities, or rearrangements of those chromosomes by chromothripsis or chromoplexi, where you essentially get fragmentation of the chromosome and re-annealing either to the same chromosome or parts of different chromosomes, really creating sort of a mishmash, a jumble of chromosomal DNA that can essentially encode for new genes or perhaps amplified genes in ways which a normal eukaryotic cell is not designed to tolerate. And so I think this aspect of cancer macroevolution is something we need to think about in future studies of this disease, both kidney cancer and other tumor types. And I'll show you some brief evidence of that. So when we looked at our first patient, we looked at this phenomenon of chromosomal instability. Because what we saw at the metastatic sites were the mutations in the metastatic sites were essentially pretty much all the same. So in the chest wall metastasis and the perinephric metastasis, the mutations were almost identical. So this made us think that the patient was still alive at the time. We thought, well, perhaps we could identify a mutation that's present in all metastatic sites who might be able to find a new drug to offer this patient that might be effective and treat all of the metastatic disease. So we did a control experiment to look in a bit more detail whether macroevolution might now be fostering change in this tumor. And so what we did is we applied fax analysis, which essentially where we count the chromosomes in each biopsy to work out whether chromosomal instability was occurring in this tumor. And what we found is that region four of the tumor was most similar to the chest wall metastases and the perinephric metastasis. Most of the regions of the primary were diploid, like all of the cells in our body, but region four had doubled its genome and become tetraploid and had spawned the metastatic colonies that had now become chromosomally unstable. And so you can look at this at a more microscopic level or higher resolution level by applying SNP-CGH technologies to look at the ratio between the maternal and paternal allele across the genome. And what you see in the region four, this perfectly balanced tetraploid genome, double genome, when you look at the ratio of paternal to maternal chromosomes, chromosome 3P is showing a lealic imbalance. This is where VHL is encoded. So we've got loss of one allele on chromosome 3P and we have another small area of loss of heterozygosia in chromosome 16P. But other than that, the tumor genome is perfectly balanced. So the ratio of maternal to paternal alleles are identical. But now let's look at the chest wall metastases here, M2A and M2B. These are biopsies separated by only a centimeter that have exactly the same exome level mutations. Here you can see they have very different chromosomal copy number events across the genome. And what this indicated to us is that actually these tumor genomes are not the same at all. Despite having very similar exome mutations, they have very different gene dosages. And I think this diversity within a single metastasis is something that we need to worry about or at least think about as we move ahead with these types of studies. And we've known for many years that chromatominal instability, that's variation in whole chromosomes or parts of chromosomes, is a poor prognostic feature. Again, emphasizing Laurent's question earlier is heterogeneity a new phenomenon. It's not a new phenomenon. We're just simply being able to resolve it much better than ever before. So why is any of this relevant to clinical trial opportunities or drug development in general? Well, I think one aspect of this is if we think about tumors like trees, targeting the early events in the tumor, the so-called trunk events, that are present ubiquitously at every site of disease, might be a more tractable approach than targeting individual subclones with drivers present in one branch but not another. So in the context of clear cell carcinoma, the kidney, what are these truncal ubiquitous events? Well, they are, in fact, quite simply VHL. VHL mutation and 3P loss of heterozygosity are the core truncal events that are present in every sporadic tumor that we've looked at and that'll come as no surprise to this audience. So how can we identify these truncal events? This gets a little bit geeky but I think it is quite important because I think it really gets to grips with how we can use emerging technologies to better structure clinical trials and some of the caveats with new technologies when thinking about structuring clinical trials to identify those trunk events. So when we look at, we take a next generation sequencing approach what we're trying to do is we're sequencing each gene in turn and we do it multiple times. A number of times we capture a mutation tells us something about the prevalence of that mutation within that cancer that we're sequencing and that's called the variant allele frequency, the VAAF, and we can mirror that on a graph between naught and 100%. A heterozygos mutation in a perfect tumor with no stromal contamination will occur about 50% of reads. So we're about 50% of times we will identify that mutation and that's what we see with VHL and this tumor here across these multiple biopsies. It's occurring in about half of all the reads in keeping with a heterozygous event. Now if we then look at other mutations in this tumor, other known drivers of kidney cancer biology, P10, PBRM1, and ATM, these are also occurring between about 40% and 50% in this biopsy here shown in yellow. So we get the idea from this that perhaps all four of these genes are truncal because their presence uniformly at around 40% to 50% of reads that we're getting from the sequencing reaction and that's zoomed in a bit here. But then when we look at more biopsies, what we suddenly find is that these drivers that we thought were truncal that were present early on in tumor evolution are in fact not truncal at all because they're completely absent in these regions here, region 10, the venous thrombus, and region three. So these so-called clonally dominant lesions here are actually subclonal because they're not present here. So in fact, when you portray them on a tree, the only one that is in the trunk is VHL and these three here are all in separate branches of the tumor. So one biopsy in clear cell carcinoma, in this case, is misleading. We cannot infer clonal dominance from just looking at one biopsy. And the reason for that I think is that in clear cell carcinoma, we're dealing with such large tumors that have evolved potentially over quite a long time. There's been a lot of time for regional separation of these subclones, generating what we call or would adopt to the sort of evolutionary term allopatric separation of subclones. A little bit like allopatric speciation where you get new species developing on islands that are geographically isolated. Not to dissimilar to that is what we see in clear cell carcinoma, the kidney where you see independent subclones evolving within the same tumor separated by what we can anticipate might be conceived as clear tissue planes in this patient's tumor. So what next? Well, I think part of the problem for treatment failure and resistance to targeted therapies that we see so often in the clinical setting I think is likely to be occurring through this problem of subclonal driver events. So what do I mean by subclonal driver events? Well, simply put, these are driver events that are in the branches but not in the trunk. So these are driver events that one biopsy is not going to be able to identify. And the problem is at the moment we simply don't know how many of these driver events are actually operating in a typical patient's clear cell carcinoma. We really don't know for sure how many driver events are really implicated in the biology of a single patient. In this patient you can see here we've got VHL as the trunk event and then we've got three or four driver events that are present in some regions but not others. And so when we look at the first 10 patients, eight of those patients, eight of the 10 patients have more subclonal drivers that is drivers that are spatially separated in the patient's tumour than they have drivers that are present in every biopsy. I think this begins to shed some light on why resistance to therapy in advanced disease, it's targeted therapy at least, is so inevitable. So when we try to calculate the number of driver events, these are recurrent events that occur time and time again that we identify sequencing multiple clear cell carcinoma that can be well described by at least four groups internationally. When we try to define the number of driver events in a patient's tumour by a single biopsy, we think now we're underestimating the number of driver events quite considerably. So let's take P53 as an example, a common tumour suppressor that's commonly mutated. In kidney cancer it's estimated on a per biopsy basis, about one in 20 patients has a mutation of P53. When we look at this on a per patient basis, sequencing between five and 10 biopsies per patient, we can find evidence of a P53 mutation in up to 40% of patients. So this driver event is more common than a single biopsy would have us believe. So how on earth can we map the total genomic landscape of a tumour? Well, the simple fact of the matter is it's difficult. It's very difficult in clear cell carcinoma in the kidney, I think. And one way we're exploring at the moment is taking circadian-free DNA from patients' blood and then sequencing that to try to identify the number of drivers that might be operating. And we're having limited and early success in this area, identifying branch mutations that were only identifiable through spatial separation of biopsies. We can now identify many of these spatially separated mutations in a single blood draw by ultra-deep sequencing at 10,000 X coverage. Suggesting that in the future, we hope, this may be a way of resolving in a sort of super-tumour material, if you like, the diversity present in one tumour mass. So where can we go moving ahead? What new drug targets can we think about trying to exploit? What does a future hold in the next 10 years that Martin might talk about tomorrow? Well, I think one of the issues is this issue of convergence. It's quite phenomenal event in evolution that's been well-described before in ecology that we're beginning to see in cancer, in cancer medicine. Can we start thinking about tumours like a game of chess in three dimensions, in a way? So can we predict the next chess move of playing a game of chess against this grandmaster? Can we predict Kasparov's next move, 10 moves in advance, and do something about it to forestall Kasparov or Karpov for making that move? So what do I say this? Well, in the context of clear cell cast in the kidney, we're seeing a lot of convergence. So what do I mean by convergence? What I mean by convergence is, despite the heterogeneity, we see these tumours have to inactivate the same gene time and time again in different branches, different spatially separated branches of the tumour. So this is the first patient we looked at. This patient has three different set D2 mutations and three different KDM5C mutations in five different regions of this patient's tumour. So suggesting that wherever these subclones are evolving, the evolutionary pressures are similar, resulting in activation of the same genes. So if we knew that by understanding the trunk in a bit more detail and we had drugs that might forestall the tumour from making that move, could this be a tractable way of using evolution to the patient's advantage? And so we're seeing this time and time again. Here's another example. This is a chromatin remodelling complex called the SWY-SNF complex. What we see is a very complicated complex, protein complex formed by 10 or 11 proteins in a cell. And this tumour has inactivated the protein complex in three different ways by mutating one or more of the member of this particular complex, PBRM1, arid 1A or smarke 4. And we see this in the context of mTOR pathway activation, a common conversion to venting clear cell carcinoma. On a per biopsy basis, we see about one in five patients has an activating event of the mTOR pathway. But when we look at a per patient basis, we see that up to 60% of patients can have at least one or more aberrations in this pathway shown here, where we see distinct mutations in P10, a P10 mutation in one branch and an mTOR activating mutation in another, or two distinct PIC3CA mutations in different branches of the patient's tumour. And so overall, we see genetic convergence in six out of 10 of these patients, suggesting that perhaps there may be some future in predicting the next evolutionary move. So to elaborate on this, I think we need to think about targeting the trunk drivers that are present in every cell. So we need new drugs that can optimally target VHL loss of function. And we need to think about exploiting some of the convergence events in the tumour mass and predicting the next resistance move that tumour may take by selection of one branch over another. What new subclones may dominate the disease at resistance. But we're also not talking about somatic mutations. I mentioned macroevolution. We have this problem of copy number aberration, so-called SCNA heterogeneity. And the context of clear cell carcinoma, we see that the only copy number event that's known in clear cell carcinoma, which there are about eight to 10, that recurrently occur as either recurrently gained or recurrently lost, these are parts of the chromosome or chromosome arms that are currently gained or lost. The only one that's always present in every biopsy is 3P loss of heterozygosity, shown here where my green arrow is. All the others are present in some biopsies, but not others. And so when you then map the copy number aberrations with the somatic mutations onto these phylogenetic trees, you can see they get a lot more complex. And I must say that this is probably only the tip of the iceberg for each patient, because we still are only sequencing 10 biopsies per patient in these very large 250 centimeter cubed tumours. And that's not including most of the metastatic sites. I think if we did that too, these trees would get a lot more ornate and a lot more complex. But they would still share VHL as the core truncal driver. So some of this I think has some impact on our understanding of tumor biomarker developments and thinking about the next generation of biomarkers. To have a biomarker that's gonna tell us something useful, it's got to evade sampling bias if we're relying on a single biopsy in the context of clear cell carcinoma and the kidney. So we've applied more recently a poor prognostic and a good prognostic mRNA expression signature set. It's a so-called CCACCB signature to clear cell carcinoma that kidney these 10 tumours that I've shown you today. This is an expression profile that segregates out good from poor prognostic patients. And what we find is that in eight out of 10 of the tumours that different regions give us different outcomes. So we showed this initially in patient one back in 2012. And we've more recently applied this to the 10 patients. And in eight out of the 10 patients, we see divergence with some regions harboring a poor prognostic signature, some regions harboring a good prognostic signature. The fact is though that in our meta analysis that we're about to submit for review, this is still the best prognostic signature we've come across. So we've tested multiple prognostic signatures and this appears to be the best. So it does work in some cases, but potentially not quite all simply because of this issue of sampling bias that some subclones still remain in the tumour and harbour a good prognostic subclone compared to the majority of this tumour here which might be a poor prognostic subclone. So this is a complicated problem. Sampling bias is likely to impact and confound biomarker development. And there's something I think we need to think about when coming up with new biomarkers that better forecast outcome for patients. So one question we're really very interested in really getting to grips with is how many drivers are present in these tumours? How many drivers are present in a typical large clear cell carcinoma kidney with multiple metasatic sites? That's a coin of phrase from a collaborator of ours Andy Futrell who's now at MD Anderson who asked this question after our first patient was sequenced. He said, Charlie, the problem is we don't know how deep the rabbit hole is. So we're trying to now address exactly how deep the rabbit hole is by taking hundreds of barbs across these tumours to count the number of drivers that present in the tumour. And I don't think that's a stamp collecting exercise. So the simple reason is that traditionally we feel or we know from mouse models of cancer, et cetera, that four or five drivers are required to initiate tumour agenesis. But we don't know yet how many drivers commonly occur in a patient with advanced metasatic disease. And I think clear cell carcinoma in the kidney will lead the way in being able to tell us and answer that quite quickly. And we're doing this because when we plot the number of biopsies against the number of driver events, you can see in some of these tumours that we're seeing, we're seeing no tailing off of the curve. So we're just seeing and more biopsies we look at, the more driver events we find. And we're getting up to 20 driver events in this patient with a slight tailing off of the curve here. So we hope by looking at more biopsies we'll be able to understand how many drivers really are implicated, which might have some impact on targeted therapies and thinking about future drug development strategies. So to summarise two thirds of my talk, I'd just like to say about two thirds of the drivers are heterogeneous and spatially separated. We can't see these branch drivers from a single biopsy. So we need multiple biopsies, at least using this type of strategy to resolve the number of subclonal drivers that are readily distinguished in clear cell carcinoma kidney. Current sampling techniques underestimate the number of driver events in clear cell carcinoma of the kidney. And I think if you think about this sort of philosophically, if each tumour harbours a similar trunk event, so they've all got VHL loss and they've all got VHL mutations, but every patient's outcome is different, then perhaps that's telling us something about the branch evolutionary events that are occurring in the tumour and the potential impact of those branched events on patient outcome. So we probably do need to understand this diversity to really be able to forecast drug resistance potentially and patient outcome. So I'll just finish off the last two or three minutes of the talk by showing some evidence of recent data that's really surprising us and shining a bit of a light on some of this problem of heterogeneity. And dare I say it, flip the coin to show you some evidence of homogeneity in one isolated tumour that is surprising us that might shed some light on the differences between germline VHL syndrome patients with clear cell carcinoma in the kidney and sporadic clear cell carcinoma in the kidney that also shines a light on some interesting questions in evolutionary biology. So we started off on this experiment to ask a very simple question. If you have one patient with a germline mutation in VHL who has multiple clear cell carcinomas in the kidney, how similar or how different are they? Given that the patient is suffering from clear cell carcinoma in the kidney so that the microenvironment is the same, the genetic background that tumour is growing in is essentially the same. So how similar are different tumours from the same kidney or between kidneys from a single patient? And these arguments go back 30 or 40 years in evolutionary biology to Stephen Jay Gould who argued for the radical contingency of the human species. So he argued if you wind back the tape of life the early days of the Burgess Shale and let it play again from an identical starting point, the chances of us all ending up in this room as human beings with brains capable of understanding genetics, et cetera, and everything else would be vanishingly small and that there are many routes through evolution in general. But then Conway Morrison others argued that actually there are many constraints to evolution that would actually mean that if you did the same experiment that Stephen Jay Gould argued, in fact he would argue get the converse and it's quite likely that you might end up with the human species all over again. Now of course we can't address that within the context of cancer biology but we can address some questions about evolution in general by looking at clear cell carcinomas that are growing within the same patients at the same time within the context of a patient with VHL syndrome. So this patient who's from originally seen at Sharon Cross and then by David Nickel at the master 26 year old male with a germline VHL mutation who had a right radical nephrectomy turned out to have two tumours. Although there were one consistent mass by genetics we could decipher these were two separate tumours. I'll show you the data for that in a minute. And then about a year later the patient had a left partial nephrectomy for a further two tumours on the left side. And the results are shown here. So here we've got the four tumours shown along here, tumour one, two, three and four and where you see blue that's a point mutation and where you see gray there's no mutation. And so the first thing you can see from here is that these tumours are relatively simple and that's not because of tumour stage. We've got mixed stage here, we've got two stage three tumours and two stage one tumours. And bear in mind many of the clear cell sporadic tumours we were looking at were stage three and yet we're seeing very limited evidence of diversity here and quite simple tumours in this young patient. With only 13 or 14 mutations about a tenth of the number that I showed you for patient one earlier. And here none of these tumours are showing branch evolution. They're all showing linear evolution as far as we can tell. The second hit here is 3P loss of heterozygosity. So every tumour of course has the same germline event same VHL mutation. But the second hit here is occurring at three different sites in 3P chromosome 3P. So this is chromosome three along here and where I've got the red circles in these four different tumours you can see the four different sites where the break points occurring resulting in loss of the 3P chromosome that is loss of the other VHL allele. So we think the second hit is 3P loss of heterozygosity that's distinct in each one of these tumours. And then when we look at the drivers what we see is that each tumour harbours a distinct subset of drivers. So the right kidney tumour two has an IDH2 mutation. The right kidney tumour one has an ARID1A mutation. The left kidney has four different mutations that are distinct from tumour four. Although tumour four also has an M-tour mutation that is distinct but likely to be an activating event similar to the left kidney M-tour mutation which is distinct showing convergence. So here I think we've got some evidence for contingency and convergence. Convergence in that you're seeing two distinct M-tour mutations in the same kidney but also contingency in that every tumour is different despite the fact it starts off from the same germline mutation and the same microenvironment. So in other words, I think Gould and Conway Morris are both right in this context. So in the context of the M-tour mutation what we see is that there are two different M-tour mutations occurring, 3N1652 and Lucene2427 that predicted both to be activating events. And when you look at when we did phosphoproteomic studies with my colleague Fabrice Andre at Institute Gustave Roussi what Fabrice managed to show is that this M-tour activating event is indeed likely to be an activating event in that we see hyperactivation of phospho-AKT, a target of M-tour in the tumours on the right side indicating that this M-tour mutation that's distinct between tumours three and four has the same biological endpoints targeting the phospho-AKT 3N308 residue. And this leads me on to the last 30 seconds of the talk to say where we're heading next. So James Larkin, myself, Tim O'Brien and David Nicol LeMarsen are setting up a longitudinal study in clear cell castenome of the kidney to address some fundamental principles of tumour evolution. We hope to ultimately be able to optimise some of the clinical trial aspects, identify the branch drivers on a patient-by-patient basis, exploit some of the constraints to cancer evolution over the next 10 years we hope and begin to define some of the relationships between diversity, clinical stage and cancer outcome. And in time we hope to match into these longitudinal studies autopsy programmes so we can begin to define the origins of the lethal subclone of multiple metastatic sites of disease and identify some of the impacts of therapy on cancer evolution as well as develop non-invasive techniques to monitor cancer evolution non-invasively through blood tests. So in summary, I think we need to address the two fundamental principles of Darwinian evolution. We need to identify the mechanisms driving branch evolution. We need to understand why some tumours are branched and some tumours aren't, why the VHL syndrome tumours show linear evolution. We don't understand this. I think it's the patients that are a lot younger. They're diagnosed earlier through screening programmes perhaps. And we need to improve our cancer selection pressures. We need to optimise drug development against VHL loss of function and resolve a subclonal dynamics as well as understand the evolutionary pressures through these longitudinal studies. So thank you very much for listening. If there are any questions, I'd try to ask them. I should just thank very quickly the people who've made this work possible. James, my colleague and friend in the Marsden, as well as the surgeons who've made this work possible, as well as my colleagues in Sikusa for UC and all the people in the lab, both here, both at CRUK and University College London, who've helped with this work. Thank you very much. Thank you, Tim. Hello, Charlie, thank you. That was a fantastic talk. Really enjoyed it. I've got two brief questions. The first is, on the mechanism of heterogeneity, why it's so very impressive, impressively sort of tree-like, the data that you told me about before in colorectal cancer, I think, with replication for cannibalism, is that relevant to renal cancer? That's the first question. And the second question is, I'm not sure you're modelling is the right term, but you're considering these subclones as independent of each other. Do you have any data to say whether they interact, perhaps to compete for resources, for example? So that targeting one clone may actually release a second clone? Yeah, two great questions, Tim. Answer your first question. We don't have an answer to either of the questions, but I'll speculate wildly, if you don't mind. The first question, we strongly suspect that some of these early branch drivers are actually initiators of heterogeneity themselves. So we're spending a lot of time exploiting the function behind these inactivating events of these common drivers to see if they themselves can drive branch evolution. The second question is there clonal competition or clonal synergy? I think inevitably there must be. And in any population there is synergy and antagonism and competitive release. I think it's something that we probably see quite frequently in clinical trials where we target, say, drug-sensitive subclone and the resistant one springs up to compete within the same environment. So this is something we're trying to model, but to model it, we need better animal models actually. So the sort of starting point for this is to develop an animal model of VHL, clear cell carcinoma, the kidney number one, and then to try to model some of these branch driver events on top of that to try to initiate diversity within these tumor models to start to study those critical questions that have quite, I think, major implications, I suspect, for the way in which we think about targeted therapies, targeting drug-sensitive subclones to lead to the release of resistant ones that we can't do anything about. Yeah, thank you very much. I have a question concerning the source of your biopsies. We have learned during the last years that the sources of a liquid biopsy may be a much better one to identify driver mutations from passenger mutations. Do you think also, too, is this a liquid biopsy as a source for mutations? Yeah, absolutely. I think, you know, circling 3D and A and potentially CTC analysis is gonna be a very good source to identify driver mutations. Whether it's the best, we don't know. And one of the purposes of Tracer-X is to address that question so we can compare the heterogeneity of an nephrectomy specimen with what we're seeing in CFDNA. Does it really adequately reflect the diverse landscape that we see in a primary metastatic tumor? Nobody's really done that experiment methodically enough to be able to come up with a solution. The emerging evidence is that it is pretty good. How good, we don't know. Well, thank you.