Two years after the Arab Spring is democracy winning in North Africa, the Middle East and elsewhere. Arab uprisings seem to create unprecedented opportunities for freedom, political pluralism and justice. But most of the region remains defined by political instability, fears of a new authoritarianism and greater violence. Has a new popular empowerment brought irreversible change for the better? Or are there new ominous realities? That's the BBC World Debate from Davos. Is democracy winning? Well you join us at the annual meeting of the World Economic Forum in Davos, where hundreds of business and political leaders are consumed by the world's pressing problems. That includes the uncertain future of the countries in North Africa and the Middle East, as we've just been seeing in Mali and with the terror attacks in Algeria.  Navi Pillay is UN High Commissioner for Human Rights born in South Africa. She was the first non-white woman in South Africa's high court, as well as being a judge on the International Criminal Court. From Egypt, Amamusa, foreign minister in President Mubarak's government, then Secretary General of the Arab League for ten years, he stood as an independent presidential candidate, coming fifth behind President Morsi of the Muslim Brotherhood. Tom Friedman, foreign affairs analyst and columnist for the New York Times, who writes extensively about the Middle East. He warned a decade ago of how the effects of individual empowerment and globalization would challenge traditional leadership. Ladies and gentlemen, our world debate panel. Now, we've invited our global audience to raise questions via Facebook and Twitter. I also want to hear from some of the doubles audience as well. What are your thoughts and challenges to the panel? But first, a question, a simple question. Get a sense of your views on this critical question. Is democracy winning in so many of these countries? It's unscientific, of course, but it is a helpful guide. Two years after the Arab Spring, is democracy winning in North Africa and the Middle East? Can I just get a sense? Those of you who believe that democracy is winning on balance in that region, your hands, please. And those who don't think it is. I would say more people think that democracy is winning. Amamusa, you've just been a presidential candidate. Do you believe democracy is winning in your country, Egypt? I believe it is going to win. So far, my answer would be yes, but the president, President Morsi, is in his office due to elections and democratic process. The difficulty is I must underline now what we need is a sustainable democracy, not just a democracy that brings a president for once or a parliament for once. We need a sustainable process of democracy. This depends on the position taken by the people. And I believe most of Egyptians now and in the Arab world believe that democracy is the solution. But the other important element is to answer the following question. Are big democratic powers really serious about supporting democracy? All right, we'll come on to that. But it's yes, but it's yes, but from you. Yes, it is yes, but I've met Abu Tulu, your view from Turkey. Yes, democracy is winning because it is a historical process. Of course, history will judge in the future. For we asked two questions when Ebo Azizi burned himself in Tunisia and later in Egypt, the Tahir Momo started. Are these demands rightful? We said yes. They are the rightful demands. What we promised to our people in Turkey. Second, is it are we what which direction should be on the right side of the history? I think it is a historical necessity because it is not only democracy winning. It is a historical necessity. In 1990s, Cold War has ended in Europe. But now Cold War is ending in our region in Middle East after almost two decades. It will end. Cold War structures will go away and democracy will win definitely. We'll get on to that detail in a moment. Navi Pillay. So we've got two saying yes and yes, but what's your view? Is democracy winning? Well, my view is that democracy will not fail in North Africa and the Middle East because these were areas that came out of decades of dictatorship. And when there is such a fundamental change, responding to the calls on the street for civil and political rights, economic and social rights, human rights, there will never be a situation where the dictatorship that reigned before will prevail again. I hear from very many leaders in the area that they know that they now have to respond to the calls on the street. So they're very aware of the messages and calls from the street. I also want to indicate how there have been elections now in Egypt, Yemen, Jordan and Libya and all of them have been observed by international observers as fair. So that's a very good sign for democracy. Tom Friedman, a very different Middle East from where you were a younger journalist, certainly in Beirut and Jerusalem. What's your view of whether democracy is winning or not? Well, I would echo Amherst's point that yes, but I'm hopeful. But I think we have to remember democracy is always about two things. It's about self-determination, the right to vote in a free and fair election. And democracy is about liberty. That is the institutions that protect individual rights, independent judiciaries, free press, free and fair commerce. And those are yet to take hold. But I always remind myself, we in America declared our independence from Great Britain in 1776. It took us till 1788 to get our Constitution. So these transitions were inevitable. But the outcome is not inevitable either, that we will have not just self-determination, that is elections, not just the hardware of democracy, but that we'll also get the software of democracy, which is liberty and the institutions that guarantee individual rights. Not everyone is on side here, but most people think that something's moving in the right direction at least two years on. Let's get someone from the audience who was in Tahrir Square, Mohammed Aldarshan, from Egypt. Is democracy winning? Thank you. Well, when we ask about democracy, it is elections, but it also more, most importantly, accountability. Unfortunately, this is lacking very much in Egypt and other countries. The government up to the president and above lack of accountability, the opposition is faring no better, more interested in infighting than in listening to the people who brought them there in the first place. So the question I would have would be, how do we reset this quasi-democratic, this stunted democratic process and make sure that accountability is part and part of the process from day one? Amamooza, were you part of a genuine democratic process you felt comfortable with? Well, I agree with my compatriot about democracy and what we have to define it very well. It is not only the ballot box, it is the respect for human rights, for rights of women, the separation of powers, independence of judiciary, and so many other things. This meaning of democracy, we have not yet achieved. But did you feel part of a genuinely democratic process? Well, the same answer, yes, but not yet to be able to say, yes, indeed, this is democracy. This is not yet democracy. This is the beginning of democracy. And that is why we do need to see good governance in order to support the process of democracy. They do go together. Aghmet Davutulu, do you believe that there was a genuinely democratic process in a country like Egypt, in Libya, also in Tunisia, as we've heard from Navi Pillay? If we had this meeting two years ago in Davos, nobody would imagine that there would be an elected president in Cairo, in Tunisia, in Libya, in Yemen. So we have to be fair to these societies. In two years, they achieved a lot of things. The psychological threshold is over. Now, I fully agree, it is time institutionalized democracy. But the psychological threshold is very important to end this beginning. But there are, of course, there is a long way to go for full implementation of democratic institutions. Tom Friedman, what's your reflection, though, about the ability of the opposition to marshal itself against the brotherhood in Egypt? Well, I think, you know, to our friend's point from Tahrir Square, I'd say two things. A democracy is only healthy. It's only as healthy as its opposition. A new democracy, a part of the Muslim Brotherhood in Egypt or in Tunisia, it's only going to be healthy to the extent that it is checked by a free press and by a healthy opposition and the fear of rotation and power. That is essential to democracy. And we still don't have that in place yet, partly because we've just had the election. But also, I think one of the great disappointments to members of the opposition and to people from the outside who are rooting for this process has been the weakness of the opposition to come together in his united front as the Muslim Brotherhood. Now, there are a lot of historical reasons for that as well and I'm sympathetic with them. But I think democracy will only be healthy to the extent that there is a really vibrant opposition with an independent judiciary and free press to express itself. Amamusa, are you a vibrant opposition in Egypt or not? When Ahmed was talking about the panel like this and a president elected in Egypt and in Tunisia, of course, and other Arab countries, I must underline the role of opposition and the role of demonstrations and the anger that is holding in with the people in the Arab world that they or we want better, we want more. We have to move forward. We cannot look to the past without looking to the future. There are so many things that mean a lot for us. Democracy is this, is what I'm talking about. It is not only the ballot box as some as the photos in the major newspapers do show. Ahmed, what's your reaction to what you're hearing up here about your country? Well, I think I think that we need to take a look into what we define as opposition to begin with. Not everybody who's not everybody who isn't the government is opposition. And this has in fact weakened the opposition process added to which the leadership has been particularly weak. So where are we heading? Where is the opposition viable as it stands? Absolutely not, sadly enough. Navi Pillay, do you think that this was a brief moment confined to only a few countries in the last couple of years or is there something sustainable now or not? Well, may I also jump in on the question on Egypt, because I issued a statement highly critical of the way the constitutional process was done. Which was last autumn. Yes, there was no national consultation. And one of the points I raised is you have to deal with the accountability, deliver on justice as well as democracy. And so the current constitution then does not have the clause that the previous constitution had about Egypt's compliance with international obligations. Now whether there has been progress and whether it's sustainable in all other countries, we have to of course look at each country differently. I hold Tunisia as the primary example of where they're going. We have our office there. They have adopted a good constitution. They have a 30% quota and many women parliamentarians. So they've addressed the women question. It's true. We've had to work very much because they were putting in language, not of equality between men and women, but complementarity between men and women. And this is the kind of work that needs to be done by the United Nations, international communities and civil societies is to help the skills and knowledge to enable judges, lawyers, journalists, civil society activists to own the process and to participate in the decision making. Well, let me give you an idea of what some other comments are which are coming in from Momo van Bole from Monrovia in in Liberia. I strongly believe democracy is winning. Look at what's happening in the Arab world. Anton Norbert, who lives in Canada. If democracy means just voting, then it is winning, which raises the question, what is the democracy we're trying to define, Tom Friedman? Well, let me say one thing about the sustainability of this moment. I think what is here's what I think is not going away. The people have lost their fear. I don't think that's going away. And secondly, every leader in the world today is in a two way conversation with his people.  You know, when I was in Tahir Square as well for the revolution. And when I got home, people asked me, what did I see there? And I said, the way I describe it is that I feel like I saw a tiger that had been living in a five by eight cage for 50 years get released. And there's three things I'll tell you about tiger. One, tiger is not going back in the cage. Two, do not try to ride tiger. Tiger rides for Egypt. Okay, if you try to ride him for your party, your faction, your sect, sooner or later, tiger is going to buck you off and bite you. And the last thing is tiger only eats beef. Okay, because tiger has been fed every lie in the Arabic language, every bit of cat food, dog food, you can possibly imagine. And any ruling party in Egypt or anywhere else who tries to ride tiger for their own interests or feed it the kind of dog food it's been fed all these years, I think we'll discover there's something really unsustainable here. Tiger is not going back in the cage. Foreign Minister Davutulu. Given how assertive Turkish foreign policy has become in North Africa and across the region, do you have a clarity of what you believe democracy and pluralism is becoming in that area or not? Yes, I think this, as I said, this is a historical process. The tiger will not go back. Let's give me an interesting example from my personal life. One day, my youngest daughter, 10 years old, 12 years old, came to my library in my house and saw my old typewriter. She was shocked. She said, what is this my father? As if she discovered an archeological discovery. And then I thought I wrote that my PhD thesis with that typewriter and Mubarak was in power. Then computer came, Mubarak was in power. Internet came, he was in power. Facebook came, he was in power, but he was not able to resist Twitter. So now it is over. Therefore, I say psychological threshold. Old regimes will not come back. And now you're sure of that. Yes. Why? Because if there is one very secret term of Arab Spring, it is dignity. Eboazi burned himself because of dignity, not because of food or any other thing. Tahir Square people, same for dignity or in Libya. Now, and democracy is the best system to respond to the search for dignity of human beings. Therefore, democracy is important, not because of mechanisms or other legal frameworks, because democracy is the best system to respect human dignity as individual being. Therefore, even the question is democracy winning is secondary. Is Arab individual winning? Are Arab societies winning? Yes, they are winning because now even if they oppose to the elected president now in Tahir, they can do. They can defend their dignity. That psychological threshold is over. But therefore, I gave the example of Eastern Europe. How many years did it take to have institutional democracy in Balkans? Still they have challenges in Balkans. Similarly, in the next 10 years, we will be having many challenges in the Arab world. But we should not be acting as Orientalist. We should not be thinking that can Arabs achieve democracy? I can say, sure, I with confidently, yes, Arab societies, Muslim societies can have the same level of democratic system because now they are fighting for their dignity and they will do so forever. If somebody does wrong, he will be acted like Mubarak or like others. Therefore, I am sure that Arab masters and Arab individuals will win democracy. I think we're getting a consensus here and certainly some of those who are emailing and tweeting are suggesting exactly that. Yes, but not immediately. Let's broaden it beyond North Africa to Myanmar, if we can, to Yen Monhan from Myanmar. You work as a mentor in Rangoon. Look at the extraordinary changes there have been in your country. Do you believe democracy is winning? I do believe democracy is winning. I wanted to ask the panelists. My country, Myanmar, experienced a democratic transition process the same year as the Arab Spring, but it was a very different process. It was quite gradual and it has been quite gradual and relatively peaceful, fingers crossed, but I wanted to ask you if there are certain universal factors that unite all of these diverse processes that will determine the success of democracy. If so, who gets to decide if democracy has won? Is it the international community or citizens? And to be clear, do you relate to what you saw in the Arab world two years ago, given what happened in your country almost six years ago? Is it the same process or something different? I think it was the same process from a citizen level, but we were lucky enough that the government started to implement reforms before it got to a revolution phase. What about the sustainability of it then? Well, I would say the tiger is still in the cage in Myanmar. The initiative, I think, was taken by people like Heng San Suu Kyi and the president.  Well, there's still a long way to go. We will get in there and work incrementally on a rights-based approach, but a long way to go. So it wasn't a call by the people and the voices of youth. And this is why it's so encouraging. The voices of the youth in Cairo and Tunisia was heard by the rest of the world and taken up on the streets across major cities as well. But what we need to be clear is, given what we've just heard represented in Myanmar, whether that generation is satisfied by the kind of politics you see changing. Foreign Minister, do you believe there is a systematic change to politics which can only be for the better or not? Yes, there could be such a change. But the difference, I fully agree, between Arab Supreme and Myanmar, I had a chance to visit Myanmar last summer during the problems in Rohingya region. And I had a chance to meet with president and son and everybody. There, the regional environment is also different. And ASEAN is playing a significant role, like the EU played for the Balkans. And that regional environment is encouraging the system to be changed. But in the Arab world, unfortunately, there is not such an attractive new regional atmosphere. That is the difference. But at the end of the day, there may be different experiences, but the sustainability of democracy will be achieved by the citizens, by the will of the people, not only by the support of international community. Abu Musa, you once worked for President Mubarak. Do you believe it's exactly what we've heard from the foreign minister? Yes, I think so. I think of three things, three points. First, the tiger is not going back to the cage. And with Ahmed, that the previous regime or any previous regime in the Arab world is not coming back. And the third point is what was referred to by the Myanmar representative. You talked about graduality, gradual process and peaceful process. We hope that our process will be peaceful, but it is a result of a revolution, not gradual process. This is the difference between your case and our case. As for whether it would be violent, it would go into violence. This depends on all the parties of the equation in Egypt and in the Arab world, because the Egyptian people will not accept to be duped into a system that brings back another kind of dictatorship. There are so many questions to raise on this very simple question, is democracy winning? Ken Roth, your executive director of Human Rights Watch, you audit what's happening, not just in North Africa and the Middle East, but right around the world. What's your view of whether, quote, democracy is winning? Just one moment, Ken. We're going to turn the camera, first of all, to Ken Roth. Ken Roth, executive director of Human Rights Watch, your audit. A lot of optimism here, but what's your view? Nick, I'm surprised that we're this far into the debate and we haven't talked about Islam. And that, for many, is the biggest worry about the prospects for democracy in the region. We shouldn't be surprised that after dictatorship when civil society and moderate parties were suppressed, that Islam does well. But the big question is, will, say, Egypt turn into Turkey, where you've got an Islamic ruling party, but Islam is not used to suppress people's rights? Or will it turn into Iran? That's the big question. If you look at Egypt today, we don't really have the answer yet. The Constitution has some problems with it. It basically abdicated civilian oversight over the military. On the key questions for me, of free expression, free religion, and women's rights, the Constitution basically kicks it down the road. It's qualified and it's going to be interpreted over the coming years. I think the answer to those questions, whether those rights succeed, will have to tell us, will dictate whether democracy in the end is victorious or not. Foreign Minister Davutulu, of course, Turkey is going through an enormous self examination on this very issue as well. Yes, about just one correction. We never claimed that our party was an Islamic party, because we think it is not right to call a party by a religion because a party may do mistake or may do something wrong. And it is better not to identify. What we have been trying to achieve in Turkey is full respect to all human rights and all democratic values. And what we achieved in the last ten years is that democratization in the sense of a balance between security and freedom and a very dynamic program of economic development, which produces services for the people. That's very important. Otherwise, democracy cannot be sustainable and third very active foreign policy based on our geography, which gives a self confidence to the people. Here, the quest of the people, the search of the people is the dignity as well as economic development together. Whether democracy is successful depends on this, not on other rhetorical approaches. Is Islam a threat to democracy? Do you see that Navi Pillay or not? I don't see Islam or any other religion as a threat to democracy. One can be an adherent of Islamic faith or any other faith and still be a democrat. There has been a myth out there for a very long time that people in the Middle East, people in Myanmar, are somewhat different and do not have the same aspirations for rights as do people in other parts of the world. And it's people who subscribe to that myth who locked up the tiger. So I feel the answer does lie in international human rights law. And there's been a skewed monopoly of resources and wealth by the elite. There has to be an equal distribution of wealth and response to the demands on the street. Amamusa, but that's a critical question which Ken Roth has raised. He says we should have raised it even earlier in this discussion, whether the Islamist tendencies are actually going to distort the advantages of democracy in a country like Egypt. No, not at all. I agree with the judge and I know your point of view and it is a prevailing one. But it has nothing to do with the religion. Democracy is democracy, Islam or Christianity or Judaism or Buddhism. This is a different equation altogether. There is confusion. Until now there is confusion. But it is very clear to us our, the opposition in Egypt that we shouldn't mix things or confuse things. Islam does not oppose nor contradict, nor make it difficult for democracy to flourish. Democracy flourished in Turkey for example. And it is a Muslim country. And it did the same in Egypt years back, decades back. And it was always, Egypt was always a Muslim nation. So please, this confusion, deliberate confusion, of Islam and democracy and conflict between Islam and democracy is a wrong theory. Kedrov, it's confusing. It's a wrong confusion. What Amr Musa is saying is what the opposition would like which I actually agree with is for us Islam not to somehow interfere with democracy. And that is one version of Islam which, frankly, the ruling party in Turkey represents. Another version, which we all fear, say a more solophist version, would justify or use certain extreme interpretations of Islam to undermine basic rights of women, free expression, and free religion. And that's where I worry. And while we all want it not to be the case, that is a threat. And I think we have to be vigilant to that threat. We all frankly hope that it turns out where Islam is just like, say, the Christian Democratic Party in Germany. It's a religious name, but it doesn't undermine democracy. But we all know that there are other versions as well with Iran being the perfect example. He is right in saying that there are people who believe so or who want to have it, the Islamic Republic. And this happened before. But the opposition to that and through democracy, and we believe that the Egyptian people now is moving very steadily away from those theories. They have seen it because it's not a question of Islam and democracy. It's a question of a government that has been elected as the representative of the religious trend and then did nothing.  Therefore it is not the religion. It is how governments perform. Here in Egypt, you will see this shift in the public opinion. It is not Islam and democracy. It is performance. It is serving the people or not. And you cannot do bad because you are Muslim. This is wrong. Or do good just because you are a Muslim or Christian. It is also wrong. It is democratic means, democratic theory, democratic practice and good governance. Well, let me push this because it's clearly a very critical issue. Pew, the research center they did a poll last year which concluded a substantial number in key Muslim countries want a large role for Islam in the political life. Majorities in Jordan and Egypt believe law should strictly follow the teachings of the Quran. Tom Friedman, what other implications do you see in the region? Well, you know, let me try to put it in a little broader context. You know, Isaiah Berlin spoke of the two kinds of freedom, positive freedom and negative freedom, freedom from and freedom to. OK? So I think what we've seen in the Arab world with the various democratic revolutions is the freedom from stage, freedom from, you know, autocratic rule. Now we're in the freedom to stage and the question is freedom to do what? Some people want more freedom to have more religion in their lives and to govern more aspects of their social and economic life. Some people want more freedom to be more sectarian, to be more Shi'ite or to be more Sunni and some people want the freedom to be citizens, OK? Citizens with equal rights and responsibilities. But my own experience in this, Nick, is that I really think I would share Amr's point of view in this sense, I think it's all about the context within which people live their lives, OK? India is the second largest Muslim country in the world. I mean, it's probably more Muslims there than in Pakistan, all right? So Islam reflects itself politically, socially, religiously in a certain way there. I really believe when people live in an environment of security and one with economic opportunity, that's going to be reflected in religion and how they express it. And I would point to Iraq. I mean, you know, no one likes to talk about Iraq because America was there and, you know, it's like, it's like against the law to talk about what happened there. But I think it's very important to actually study the evolution there. When it was rampant insecurity and economic devastation, you had the height of sectarianism. People forget Iraq's third election, the people, the Iraqi people demanded that the major parties run on multi-sectarian tickets, including Shiites, Sunnis and Kurds. Both Alawi and Maliki ran on multi-sectarian. Now that's broken down as security has broken down. So I don't think you can talk about religion, you know, acts the context of security and economic growth. Ahmed Davutudu, what's your view of this very sharp challenge? Yes, I think the basic threat to democracy in the Muslim world is not Islam, but it is this approach, this Orientalist approach by some other observers. Because once we analyze Christian societies, we don't make this type of classifications, although we know, even in the United States, there are people who are suggesting to bomb Kaaba. Or there are people in Europe like Bravik trying to create a new holy crusade against Muslims. First of all, we have to understand Quranic teaching. I know Quran. I read all Quran and several times, of course. The basic value of Quranic teaching is human dignity and the basic value of democracy is human dignity. They do not contrast each other. The basic mechanism to find a truth in Quran is collective rationality, what we call Ijma. And the basic mean in democracy to find a solution is collective rationality. Why do we do election? Because we believe that collective rationality does not mislead you. And Islam, we have all these norms. If we go really to Quranic teaching, but if you refer some misinterpretation, those misinterpretation are in Israel. You can see, even the second biggest party in Israel, they try to make, to cleanse all Muslims from West Bank. And you can see in many other societies, therefore, Nick, the problem is mentality. Now in the Muslim world, mentality is changing. And that mentality is respecting to human dignity, respecting, I met with all the youth leaders in Tahrir. They are committed Muslims, but they want the same thing what European youth wants. And we know Turkey is one of the most modern societies in the world with a huge economic success. What they demand, my people in Konya, which is known as one of the most conservative, but they ask us, what do you achieve to make Turkey successful? What do you achieve as services in my country? That is the main demands. And Islam, in that sense, is not barrier, the opposite. If you, if we address to the main values of Quran and Islam, we will see there is no contradiction. And we have to promote this, this approach to close this gap, rather than trying to provocate and trying to create as if there is a huge gap which is not close, which is not possible to close between Islam and democracy. And these are not two criteria to opposite alternative criteria. Democracy is something, a political system. Islam is a religion of values and they do, definitely they do agree on main, on basic issues. Navi Pillay. Yeah, but we do have to address Ken Roth's concern though about the discrimination against women. Yeah, so that I think I would agree with Ken. It's more visible, very many harmful practices against women. On the other hand, it is being addressed. I love that Algeria came up with the quota for women parliamentarians and they have 146 women in parliament. I think it's better than the United States even. I fully agree with this, but it is not linked to Islam or anything. I can tell you there was more discrimination in Turkey when there was some radical secularist approach against Muslim students wearing hijab. This is all type of discrimination is wrong. Whether based on this ideology or the other ideology, I fully agree. Women rights should be supported and that is another of my... I would just add to Ken's point, which is that I don't think the concern of cops, Christians in Egypt for their rights and inclusion under the current government is just an Orientalist invention. There are Muslim parties there that have expressed views that are deeply exclusionary. I think they're not the majority, but I don't think it's just an invention of a foreign Orientalist. Right, but let's keep moving there are so many issues here to at least try and cover and acknowledge. I'm getting a couple of emails here saying that certainly Islam is no obstacle to democracy, but so-called Democrats can use religion for their purposes, especially in countries with a high level of illiteracy and poverty. But let's move it forward to the danger from extremism to Vallinassa, who is dean of the Johns Hopkins School in Washington DC and recently in the US government. The way, particularly after what's been happening in Mali and Algeria, this could all be derailed. We talk about the role of Islam. One moment, Valli. Just the microphone up a little bit, please. The way we're talking about the role of Islam in democracy, I think it's... One more time, please. The way we're approaching this issue of the role of Islam in democracy, I think it's not correct. The issue is not whether Islam is compatible with democracy, but that the Arab Spring has brought to power political parties that are ideological that are committed to Islamic State. The problem is not Islam, it's the notion of Islamic State. And secondly is that behind these political parties, we're now seeing essentially a revival of al-Qaeda. When Arab Spring happened, the perception was that it has finished off al-Qaeda, that the ideological sweep in the region is presenting the youth, the populations with new opportunities, democratic vision, and that the vision of al-Qaeda is gonna die down. And what we're seeing is two things happening. One is that al-Qaeda is coming back very healthy and very aggressive and very virile in places that we didn't see it such as in Algeria. And secondly is that we're talking about democratic institutions, but state institutions in the Middle East are collapsing. Militaries in Egypt, the militaries lost control of the Sinai. In Syria, the state is completely disappeared altogether. And in Libya similarly, there is no state really to speak of. And in Tunisia, the state has been significantly weakened. And we can debate about the politics of democracy, but the reason why I think democracy is in trouble is because of the rise of extremism, collapse of state power, and the fact that political parties are taking over whose ideology has no commitment to democracy. I'm a minister. I believe what Nasser said is right. The Qaeda is a phenomenon by its own. It does not represent Islam or the way Islam or Muslims are being governed. We in fact, most of us hate what the Qaeda is doing. And now we will have to stand firm if they are going back to their practices in disturbing societies. The Islamic religion has nothing to do with this. And at the same time does not contradict democracy and a must underline that when we talk about Sharia, all of us from all walks of national life in a country like Egypt or in the Arab world, we do that out of respect to our Sharia. But we differ about certain interpretations and the uncertain extent, the extent to which we would carry the effects or the influence of this or that rule into our lives. Akbar Davutulu, Turkey is being very assertive in so many of these countries, with money, with political contacts, with support. Is part of your reason for doing that to prevent this kind of move towards extremism, which Valley Nasser has so eloquently just highlighted, which is so much sharper today than probably we would have been discussing two or three weeks ago before Mali and also Algeria. I fully agree with Nasser's approach and analysis. Today, what we are facing in our region is during this transformation, these state structures are dissolving and getting collapsed almost. Therefore, from the very beginning of Arab Spring, we had a clear strategy. We said during the transformation, we will support the demands of the people everywhere and we will use diplomacy for this transition. After transformation of our election, we decided to have special relations with these countries and we established high-level strategic council meetings with Egypt, Tunisia, Libya. And now we are preparing for Yemen and Morocco as well. High-level strategic council meetings, all ministers are meeting together, co-chaired by two leaders. And we are matching these ministries and usually the other side requests from us about our own experience, how to reform health system, how to reform financial system, how to reform educational system. In the last 10 years, we made many reforms and we are sharing our experiences. Delegations are going and coming. Just to give an example in Cairo now, we are trying to share our experience for municipal administration to clean the city because daily life of the people should change. There should be a visible change in order to make democracy successful. Therefore, we made two agreements with Tunisia and we gave 500 million dollars, 100 million donation, the rest, soft loan with Egypt, two billion dollars as a financial assistance as soft loan. We will be doing more, but more importantly is to exchange the experience in order to make these new democracies a success, especially Egypt. Egyptian democracy must be successful. Otherwise, we will be facing much bigger problems. Therefore, Turkey will be supporting all these, not only by word or by statements, but on the ground to work together to reform the system. Nick, I think it's great what Turkey is doing to help with institution building. It's hugely necessary, but it's not sufficient. The sufficient thing for any functioning democracy to be sustainable is trust. I trust that if I elect you to office, you'll vacate office when I leave, it's not rule or die. And because of the way democracy came in these countries in this very abrupt way, okay, and in places where there has been no Mandela and no midwife, no midwife to mediate the trust between different communities that were kept in many cases in fear of one another. And I always go back to the movie Invictus if you've never seen a great Hollywood movie about Nelson Mandela. And there's just a wonderful scene in the beginning where the new head of sports, ministry of sports, for the ANC, new Mandela government, they wanna change the name of the national rugby team, most important sports team in South Africa from the spring box, which was the name of the white regime. They wanted to give it an African name. And Nelson Mandela in this wonderful scene in the movie lectures his followers and says, no, we're not gonna do that. We must surprise them. We must surprise them. I guess what I missed most in the Arab Spring, nobody has surprised me. Morsi never came out and said, you know what? Didn't he surprise you when he suddenly announced taxes and what he was gonna do last November? No, he didn't surprise me in the evolution of the constitution as I said, which to me is so important that when you don't have trust that everyone agree on the rules is really, really important. And he I think could have bought himself so much space and time.  I've heard your concerns. You know what? Let's take three more months. We've been over a country of 5,000 years. Let's take a few more months and write this constitution in a way that everyone will feel embraced of it. I'm a Musa, let me be clear after what Valinas has just said and others are saying as well. If the next generation can't get work, the young men, the young women, if the reserves run out in Egypt because the economy is collapsing, do you fear, for example, that there will be a drift towards extremism in the new democracy or not? Yes, certainly. But I want to make an observation, I believe it is necessary to comment on what my friend Ahmed was just saying. The relations between Egypt and Turkey are very strong and are due to be stronger and stronger. This is a country that we love and they play in a very soft way as compared to the Iranian rough way. But anyway, what I want to say is that the help, the policy, the active policy towards Egypt should be between Egypt and Turkey and not between the party of Adela in Turkey and the party of Adela in Egypt. Egypt and Turkey, not the parties, not the affinity of policy, but the necessity that both countries become allies, good friends and can serve the region and stability in the region. Let's move on with some other points. Giorgio, you were Foreign Minister of Singapore until a couple of years ago. There was an election in Singapore. You're no longer Foreign Minister.  What have you learned as a former politician now about the ability of politicians to cope with this change in the democratic framework? Democracy as a broad movement is unstoppable, but we shouldn't make it into an ideology. The test is whether we achieve good governance and whether or not we achieve good governance, which is the point Amri Mousa talked about, depends on how we adapt democracy to specific situations. You cannot disregard Islamic values in Islamic society, it's just not possible. And in a country where there are tribal, ethnic, religious differences, these have got to be taken into account. If you just implement a simplistic one-man-one vote, then the minorities will feel that democracy is oppression by the majority. So in the end, you need democracy with Arab characteristics, you need democracy with Myanmar characteristics, you need democracy with Chinese characteristics. So I would not... I think that the granularity at which we analyze democracy and its specificity are very important. What have you learned about the ability of the political class to adapt to this immense new pressure from the street? Well, technology, the social media, the internet have altered power relationships between individuals, among human beings. And because of this, all structures everywhere are being corroded away. And democracy is easy when you are tearing down all structures. It's much more difficult when you're building new structures to look after the livelihood of ordinary people. And I think Arab society is going through maybe an accelerating first phase, but the next phase, the construction phase, would be hard work and it won't be so simple. And unless the processes adapt itself to specific circumstances, you'll run into a lot of trouble. Let's go to India, can we? Let's... Can you move the microphone across? Let's go to India now to Ashni Monod, because obviously India, the biggest democracy in the world, but many people feel that the Indian democracy is failing at the moment. Well, recently we've seen a lot of people protesting in India, a huge explosion of democracy and expression of it, people protesting violence against women, but the government has stuttered and has maintained silence and hasn't responded adequately to these issues. So my question would be, how do we actually... How do we get governments to deal with women's rights and issues and freedom in the developing world, without which we cannot even consider it to be a true democracy? This business of whether the political class can handle the enormity of what is expected from the street for a minister. Yes, just to respond in half a second to what Amr Musa said. Yes, it is a relation between Turkey and Egypt. Whoever wins election in Egypt and sits in Cairo as government, they are our counterparts. And our main goal as Turkey is to make success stories in new democracies. And everywhere we will be cooperating, together, shoulders to shoulder with all the new democracies in the region. But that's why I'm pressing you on this point about whether the political class who are in power can adapt to what is expected of them. Yes, this is a big challenge. The challenge is between the old attitudes, because bureaucracy is still old, old bureaucracy. There is a new political elite coming. There are demands from the people. And it is the ability or inability of this new political elite to manage the old attitudes of bureaucracy and the rising demands of the people. And there will be a new, therefore I say psychological threshold is over. But now there is a huge challenge to change the attitudes, to break the resistance of old bureaucracies and to make them more reformist. Reformism starts from mind, but goes into the institutions. So Navi Pillay, when you go around to countries trying to persuade them, they've got to change their attitude, particularly on human rights. Do you still feel there's this enormous problem of behavioral resistance to this new inevitability? Yes, there is. But I would like to say that democracy is not a quick fix. And therefore we see challenges even in old, well-established democracies like India. But the fact that there were these huge street protests is a demonstration of democracy. And in my own country, South Africa, we took the opportunity of receiving help from the international community to have a very good constitution.  And my message is it's all there, the economic, social, and cultural rights, civil and political rights. These are the aspirations of everyone in any part of the world. And who wrote all these into international law? Member States did. So the very governments who spelt out these rights are not delivering those rights in their own countries. So it's my job to remind them this is your obligation. Tom Friedman, you warned in a celebrated book 10 years ago that the political class was gonna have to change its thinking and then you hear George Yeo say what he said and what he went through in Singapore. What do you see about the ability of politicians two years on? They didn't understand what was happening then. Do they understand what's happening now?  As I said, we're all in two-way conversations now. I, as a columnist, am in a two-way conversation. President Obama's in a two-way, no more one-way conversations just top down. But I think, you know, when I hear my friend George, you know, I'm reminded I actually came to Cairo via Davos from Singapore. I was visiting Singapore the week of Tahir Square. And I felt like I had come from a country where on any given day the entire government can be debating how better to teach fractions to third graders. To a country where that thought had never crossed the leader's mind. Now that is very relevant now because we're discussing, you know, the fate and future of Arab democracy. And Lord knows, you know, I'm rooting for this in every way possible. But the world hasn't stopped. It's gotten more connected. I just wrote a book about America because I'm worried about my own democracy right now. And what I'm, and the theme of this book is it's called That Used to Be Us. I'm worried about my own country. And one of these- Obama said very clearly in his inaugural speech on Monday. He said, quote, we will support democracy from Asia to Africa, from the Americas to the Middle East. Right, but the question is how we do that. And I think the thing that is needed most in terms of the kind of aid we can give is, you know, this is about giving people the tools, I think, to realize their full potential. China is not waiting. India is not waiting. America is not waiting. We live in a world where average is over, okay? We live in a world where the high-wage middle-skill job is disappearing. And what worries me so much is the Arab world is taking a necessary, I understand, but a timeout from what's been happening in the schools in Egypt? What's been happening, you know, in the universities? Are people getting the skills and education they need to thrive in this world? Well, let me pick up on that very point. Kishumar Babani, dean of the Lee Kuan Yew School happened to be in Singapore, of course. But you've got a very important point because the analysis that you're building on are of democracies in the West and how they fail, really, to understand this new reality because they're not very good at it themselves. Yeah, I must say, Nick, this has been a fascinating debate. One more, the microphone's not working. Here's another microphone. We're changing microphones. That's to say, that's okay. Now we can hear what you said. Okay, I was saying this has been a fascinating debate. Say it again, please. And it really is really... No, I don't want you to keep lauding us, but for the editing purposes, could you start where you started, please, again? Okay, I'm trying very hard to look serious, by the way. Okay. Start again, this? Okay, no, seriously, this has been a fascinating debate. It's really brought up the complexity of this view. But one dimension that's really sadly missing in this debate is that why we all agree, all of us agree that democracy is the best form of government. But Winston Churchill also warned us that democracy is the worst form of government, except for the alternative. And the lesson that we are learning in recent years, and I'm glad Tom referred to it, is that the most advanced democracies today in Europe and America are struggling. And they're struggling, I mean, it's amazing that the United States of America, which used to be the beacon of democracy for the world, is now caught in this amazing political paralysis, and it can't make fundamental decisions about debt, about fiscal balancing, because of a total polarization. Now, what's going wrong here? So I think the lesson that we should learn about democracy essentially is that it is the best form of government, but it is also the worst form of government, and we should be aware of the dangers and difficulties of democratic transitions, and someone should write a book about that and give it to every new country that is making the transition. Let me go to Salih Shetty from Amnesty International. Salih Shetty, let's get the microphone to you, picking up on that point, but what are your concerns? Let me get the microphone, the camera to you. Salih Shetty of Amnesty International, your concerns when you look at the way democracy is developing or not? I think it finally boils down to how power is distributed and managed in a society, because look at Greece, and you're talking about countries which have elections. Greece, which is supposedly the birthplace of democracy as we understand it, isn't a big mess. The people of Greece are really upset with the way it's being governed, and the reason that's happening is that there's a handful of people who have obviously misused the resources and the consequences being felt by those who are the weakest in the society. So if you have societies which cannot allow people, particularly those who are the bottom of the pile, they don't have a voice, if they don't feel that they have a right to participate in decision making, elections alone are not going to solve the problem. So in fact, my provocative question to the panel was going to be that if you're a democracy and you've had elections, does that make human rights violations in your country any less harmful? Foreign Minister Davutoglu, of course you are under pressure, partly as part of your accession to the European Union from our business, apart from the other media, because you do detain quite a lot of journalists, human rights and democracy. That's of course a very important question, but first let me address to the first comment. I fully agree that transformation is not only an individualist. There is a huge transformation in Europe as well. Democracies are being transformed based on the economic crisis. Now the accountability is the basic value of democracy, but who will be accountable for the economic crisis in Greece? European Central Bank or Greek government? After a while, there will be more and more questions about European democracy as well. Who should be addressed or blamed at the end of the day if all decisions is being taken by Brussels? In fact, this is a transformation of Westphalian system. In the Middle East, the psycho-spico system is changing. In Europe, Westphalian system is being transformed. About human rights. And Turkey. Yeah, yeah, about human rights and Turkey. The main mission of our government was to extend human rights and democratization in our country. No democracy or no country is perfect in that sense, but our way, our objective is to increase the level of human rights and to prevent any human rights violation. This is the basic mission of Turkish government or any government, but of course there are many tests. Sometimes we have to address and we have to take more and more concrete steps to make our democracy, especially regarding human rights, much better than before and closer to the perfect. And there are many challenges. One critical human right is equality for women in the democratic change. Barbara Stocking, chief executive of Oxfam. Yes, I'm very concerned about what's happening. Say again, please, Barbara. I'm very concerned about what's happening with women's rights. At the beginning of the Arab Spring in Egypt, I talked to our colleagues who were in Tariah Square and the thing that moved them the most was that they were standing equal with men. The men were treating them very respectfully. They said, this is a new start. They said, this is never going to go back. Now, they don't say that to me now. They say they are very, very concerned about what's happening in Egypt, but in the Arab world, across the board as well. And I'd really like to know what the panel think about that, but most particularly what those of us outside can do to try to help reinforce that because this isn't just about what each party believes. This is a deep set of beliefs in society that's a very big change to make and who's going to lead that? How can we help that from outside? Navi Pillay, do you see resistance or do you see at least embracing of the principle by and large? You know, the stereotypes are there. I was so pained when I heard the former Minister of Singapore speak of one man, one vote. Women have been voting for some time. One person, one vote. Yes. What the international community can do is sustained assistance. International NGOs, for instance, Oxfam, Amnesty International, Human Rights Watch can play such a role in strengthening national human rights activists so that they could speak for themselves.  They hate to be beaten and they want equal salaries for equal work. So the claim of rights is the same, but they need to learn to articulate this for themselves and to convince their governments to give them participation in the decision-making process. And finally, Amamusa, do you fear what Barbara Stocking is saying that actually the equality of women is beginning to slip in the democracy you're seeing developing in your country? Quickly, please. Yes, indeed. We need to do more. And the Constitution did not succeed in assuring women of their equality with men. And that's why we left the Constituent Assembly. That's why we protested. We have a distance to go, but we are not starting from scratch. Egypt has a lot of rights for women, jobs for women, contribution of women in the society, but we are still in the first 50%. We want to cross the threshold and move on through the Constitution. That's why we are asking for an amendment for the articles dealing with women in the Constitution. Amamusa, thank you. Let me just quote you one email that we've received during this debate. Democracy is not instant coffee. Democracy will not win unless it's inclusive, serves its people and is just. And I can see everyone nodding at that point. Thank you all very much indeed. Two years ago, here in Davos, the meeting became mesmerized by the extraordinary events in Egypt and Tunisia. Two years from now, will there be less or more democracy in North Africa, the Middle East, and right across the world with other nations where authoritarian leaderships are out of touch? Well, that's it from this BBC World Debate. Thanks to our panel, to all of you who have contributed your thoughts and questions. And many more I know had ideas. And our global audience around the world, on television, radio and online. What is clear is that the journey to democracy will remain difficult and unpredictable and is far from guaranteed. From me, Nick Gowing, here in Davos of the World Economic Forum. Thanks for joining us. Bye-bye.


Hello everyone, it's YenivuDiv, your God, and tonight I want to tell you about my Friday day, because I really had the most Friday day for a long time, today. I came home, I went to my wife's house, yes, I already learned how to go some food, but after that I received a phone call from my husband, and almost everyone knows that it's not a good thing, because my husband never calls me. In fact, every two weeks at the end, I call her, because we just did that for two years, and when she calls me, that means that she has a very good news. And in fact, she called me today, and first, when I saw my husband's phone call, I thought, I hope there's something about my father, and of course I answered and said what happened, because I know that it was a really bad thing, and my husband said that a few days ago, my younger brother was at his friend's house, and he used a screwdriver to lift the motor up, but something bad happened, they don't know what happened, but the screwdriver broke, and in fact, it broke the whole right arm of my brother, and of course, they called the police, because of course, they lost their hand, almost lost it. In fact, I don't know, my husband doesn't know, my father doesn't know, they just received a phone call from my brother's friend, and said your son is at the hospital, because he lost his arm, or almost lost it, and now the doctors are working on his arm, they hope that they can save it, but they don't know, because my family owns a sufficient amount of the local police, and of course, there's not enough time to save the arm, because it's almost broken. According to what I can find from my husband, and according to what he can find, the screwdriver broke the arm, and broke the bones in the shoulder and in the wrong part of the arm, and in fact, right now, his arm is in the wrong place, and we don't know what happens, we have to wait until the morning to find if he can use that arm, or if he just lost it, and there's a huge problem, because in fact, they just said to my husband, I don't tell you, we hope that we can save it, but the chance that we can save his arm is really bad. So, here's my breaking day. I guess that I'll tell you tomorrow what happened, and if he still has his arm. So, here's everything, excuse me for destroying your day, because I don't know if you want to listen to that news, but I can't think of other things, and that's all.


In this episode we'll be talking about design ethics and finding your moral compass. We'll talk about the craft of service design. What is it? And finally we'll talk about the fragmentation of service design into all kinds of different sub-disciplines. Should we be worried? Here's the guest for this episode. Let the show begin. Hi I'm James and this is the service design show. Hi I'm Mark and welcome to the service design show. This show is all about helping you build organizations that put people at the heart of their business. The guest in this episode is the Managing Director of Engine in Dubai. His name is James Sampere. James has been in the service design field for over a decade and he's got a ton of experience. So in this episode we'll really be talking about what's going on in service design today and what are the topics you should be concerned about for the next five years. If this is your first time here on this channel welcome and I'd love to have you to subscribe as we bring new videos at least once a week that help to level up your service design skills. That's all for the introduction and let's quickly jump into the chat with James. Welcome to the show James. Hi Mark. Good to see you. We were talking before the interview and we said we met once I think in our life ages ago right? Yeah so from memory so I think it's probably about 10 years ago in Utrecht. Exactly yeah something like that. I had an interesting taste in shirts and I was coming out there talking about I think doing an intro to Engine and some of the work that we've been doing with I think Mercedes-Benz at the time so yeah a while ago. There's one photo that always stuck with me and that is when you showed like an undercover service designer sitting I think in our ambulance or something like that. Yeah. Do you know which one I mean? Yeah that's that's that was one of our service designs at the time Eric so yeah. Yeah exactly. Yeah we used to do a lot of work in the in the public sector in the UK so we were you know we were sort of shadowing shadowing the front line as he's our want so yeah that was that was from that project. James you already mentioned something about Engine. For the people who don't know who you are what do you do these days and what's your relationship with Engine? Yeah sure so Engine is a service design consultancy so we like to think of sort of one of the one of the first service design entities coming out of the UK so Engine was set up in 2001 by a couple of the founders Oliver King and Joe Hippie and they were looking to apply their design practice so originally product designers to the development and design of services. I came on board with Engine 2008 so I've been with Engine a few years and currently I'm sort of leading the the new studio that we've set up in Dubai so in the Middle East so since 2017 so we've been out here nearly three years. Hmm interesting. James service design has played an important role in your life but do you actually remember and can you recall the first time you got in touch with the term when did you hear about service design and where was it? It was I guess it was very early on in so I was fortunate enough to have done a master's at Brunel University so in design strategy and innovation. I think the focus of that course was really about how do you use design in order to help organizations innovate so large organizations and one of the sort of modules I guess within that course were the sort of shift from products to services to the idea of the kind of service economy and certainly Western economies of how you begin to have to kind of re-apply your design training to effectively a new market and set dynamics. I don't think it was necessarily articulated as service design but it was it was using design for the development of non-products so you know a lot of time we're looking at development of services. The post office, Orange, they were one of the first sort of telcos who were really very brand driven and that was also one of the first times that I came across Engine who were a very sort of weirdy beardy almost boutique kind of well this is a strange idea you know two guys sitting out and thinking they can design these services and building a whole company around it. So that was kind of my first intro to it and then I guess through my days at sort of Samsung looking at R&D I think slowly weirdly being at a product company maybe realize the importance of services more because a lot of what we were doing was five to ten years in the future and actually a lot of the more interesting work we were doing was actually in the design of service rather than rather than the product. So you've been back then? Yeah so that was about that was 2008 so sort of mid 2000s the dawn of the iPhone yeah yeah looking so I guess my my I've been talking about 2019 and 2020 for a long time and so and now it's here now we're here yeah and service design is a is a is a credible thing. Hmm James you gave me some really interesting topics I know I say that in every episode but it's it's true so I'm going to pick your brain about these these topics are you ready to do some interview jazz? I think so yeah all right drum roll or bass drum or I don't know topic number one is a called design ethics we haven't talked about ethics a lot so do you have a question starter and can you show it to us? So I was going to come in here and out this way so why design ethics? So there's a number of conversations I think that we're we're sort of having here at Engine I think design ethics is something that is becoming more and more important for us when we're thinking about not only the kind of work we do but also who we work with and I think it's becoming increasingly important as sort of markets evolve and we're seeing a number of different sort of trends in the market so things that we encounter a lot of the time are you know this idea of big data the idea of personal data within the fabric of a of a service also about the sort of treatment of people who work on the front line of a of a particular service but also elements around you know how how sustainable a service is you know what impact does it have on our planet so certainly three three big areas that we're sort of encountering you know quite a lot in our work. So let's rewind for a second like what is what is sort of increasing this awareness related to design ethics what is driving this? I think it's the I think we're dealing with we're dealing with organizations who are looking for a I guess a suite of outcomes so these outcomes might be pay you know how do we how do we not only serve these people better but as a by-product or as a primary driver therefore how do we keep those people for longer so therefore how do we earn more money from our existing customer base and how do we attract more customers and then how do we in ever increasing marketplaces how do we sort of improve things like margins so how do I balance out some of the operational costs with you know what we're what we're earning from from the service so I think why that's important to us as service designers is a lot of what we're developing and doing so whether that be okay so we're developing a service that drives a number of different outcomes so so we have to track back from saying okay so how do we how do we maintain a focus not only on what's great for the customer but how do we make it so it's a justifiable investment for an organization and how do you strike the right balance so actually you don't tip into doing something that makes a lot of sense to the organization but actually compromises a lot of the things that are the customer's value or you value as an individual like privacy for instance and I think we've seen a lot of sort of service companies come unstuck because their ethics haven't matched their their desire to innovate or their desire to create interesting services so you know guys that swing to mind you know anyone anyone who has a business that relies on the gig economy so if you think about delivery if you think about right right right right you know from line don't get access to healthcare they don't they're not they don't get full full-time employee status and we're seeing that you know go through the courts at the moment in California but all of that I think is something we as designers need to be cognizant of because we need to ensure that I always feel like we are should be a moral compass so whether within our whether we work in-house in our clients or whether we're sort of consulting to a client from an agency I think our point of view is to try and strike the balance and I think the art and science of some great service design is something that can strike the balance and and I think ethics is is a cool part of that so I see there a discussion about ethics coming up more and more and it it makes a lot of sense and like you said the moral compass it hasn't been discussed a lot in the last 10 years I think like what are the questions if people are sort of intrigued by this topic what kind of questions should I ask themselves to help them develop their or discover their moral compass I think it's um so we we we have a we have a sort of um a thing that we do from the outset which is which is just trying to understand where the organizational value is if we get this thing right so you know what does look what does good look like at the end of this right if you get this right for a customer what are the thing what are the elements that we would be delivering so they can be quite um by um tactical so they can be things like well I you know I'm able to personalize my service and actually it evolves as my best or they can be quite um or they can be quite sort of um broad like this thing is just easier it's just say this just saves me time and then we also do the same thing for the organization so actually when we're designing this service for the organization when you inwardly point that service what's the value what value does it create for the organization um now one of those things you know there's going to be a lot of sort of uh sweet spots in there so where you where where a thing is equally valuable from organization it is is for a customer that is a that's that classic thing that people say right this is a this is a win-win so for me that they're the things that becomes the some of the fabric of what you're trying to sort of use to design uh with it within the service design uh within the service that you're designing um where there's a I think often when you go through that exercise there'll be some contradictions so there'll be things like you know from a customer point of view I value my privacy from an organizational view is I want to get as much data on these people as possible and I want to be able to do x with it and I think there they are the points where you you need to identify those early because you need to then design a effectively a compromised system or a way that actually talks to both those things but without compromising without valuing one over the other and I think our responsibility as being the conduit between the customer and the organization is to represent those two views right because it makes the situations where value is created on both sides where there isn't a trade-off that's great but as soon as a trade-off has to be made you have to have like a framework to make decisions yeah and what's that framework right that's that could be a moral framework yeah yeah yeah yeah and I think what we're increasing so something that we're doing at engine at the moment is creating a manifesto so we're creating an internal manifesto which effectively um supports all of our designers in the studio identify what we believe is engine to be the right thing to do right um you know and some of those things are a response to things that we see coming down the road so for instance you know there was a big there's been a big um emphasis from organizations almost find operational efficiencies is to move from people sitting in call centers to chat box because that we you can create a simulated person personalized conversation with a chat bot and actually functionally that that's great but what are the ethics that sit behind that you know should should you um should you as a as a customer know that you're talking to a flexibility of robot rather than a person and what are the implications what are the implications to do that so um I guess the the the manifesto is a key set of guidelines for our designers that we can use across the entirety of our projects to kind of assess this is this is this is where our moral code sits exactly so if outside of this we know we know that actually we can flag begin start flagging those things and uh a thing like manifesto and then we'll move on to the next topic but um I think it's good if people start thinking about their own manifesto and the the the challenge would be like you have to know what to put in your manifesto I think that's also one of the the key challenges but that that requires some reflection yeah and it's hard it's hard right because you know when you dig down into any organization you know if you work for a you know a series of big blue chip chip organizations or even you know smaller organizations there's going to be stuff that you perhaps you know don't agree with or you don't like so actually getting the balance right is tricky and it's you know it'd be a miss of me if we're saying you know we're going to turn away anyone who doesn't have the same moral code as us but I think what we're trying to do is to ensure that whatever we touch feels right right and for the right reasons good okay the design ethics we'll be talking about that more I'm sure in the coming uh episodes uh ready to move on to topic number two yeah all right let's do it um there we go it's called design craft and I just could have probably removed design do you have a question starter um how can we yeah how can we dot dot dot um how can we um I guess get into a conversation about design craft in terms of what that means for service design so so I think um so as I'm an avid uh viewer of the service design show I know that you've talked I know that you've talked about uh craft the odd time whenever I've seen craft being discussed it's sort of at the level of methodology yeah um I think when I'm talking about design craft here I'm talking about um something slightly different so if I just sort of explain what I mean go ahead um so I think um you know what we've seen is I think a sort of maturity of of service design practice so you know in the early days um lots people was sort of explaining I remember really early on at engine yeah even when I joined in in the mid nauties we were sort of just going into client organization we were saying this is a service like this is what it's made up of people processes systems products places propositions and you can design these things we don't need to do that anymore um the next the next sort of phase of evolution I guess or maturity where people are going yeah I get that actually what a service is and the thing can be designed um and then it became about methodology so I think what we um what we were seeing is that all of a sudden service design became a credible alternative way to solving a organizational problem where they perhaps went to a management consultancy or a brand consultancy or something else and they effectively said look we've used their process before we want to see what your process is so we can sort of gather two things and to a certain extent feel okay around okay I'm gonna opt for this methodology by the way I I must remind myself that I in all of these things I have to recommend a bunch of books so there's a great book old now strategy safari well link to it down below yeah um and I can't remember the author but it's called strategy safari but it talks about how you can solve problems from different schools of thought and they talk about the design school the management school the economic school so actually what our clients are doing we're picking someone from the design school to solve a a problem which wasn't necessarily a problem I think where we've evolved since then is that we have a methodology and a robust way of working through things in a way of engaging a client in that in that transformation and I think where the conversation should be now is around okay so you've got service design but how do we know it's good service design uh huh yeah how do we know that actually what you're designing is a is a good or you know ideally great service so I guess what we've been putting a lot of sort of emphasis um into at the moment is trying to understand what that means so we don't I don't think in the community there's the language to talk about what great service design looks and feels like so we was you know question we've got on our studio wall is you know what is the aesthetic of the service that you're designing mm-hmm and seems like a sort of counterintuitive thing to ask of something that might be inherently invisible mm-hmm um but when we talk about aesthetic in service we're talking about you know how does how do you retain a consistent sort of brand brand experience through the whole thing do you create those micro moments of delight how do you design the interactions the communications how do you design the policy that sits underneath how do you support the decision making that underpins a lot of those policies so for us we're starting to shape what we think the lexicon is underneath the aesthetic of service design and and what what we believe good looks like and aren't there are so many moving parts in a service that make what that makes it uh super complex and hard to actually grasp what the craft is or are you finding really foundational patterns I think I think we have to get so another combination I think but embedded within this question is I think we have to get specific about the role that we play as service designers within with like what we bring to the table as service designers for these uh some of these problems I think the clue is kind of in the title in the what we took what we're all talking about is a deep understanding of services how they work how they operate how they're delivered plus design right mm-hmm so I think you know we're strong believers that anyone can be involved in the design anyone can design a service but actually it's designers who are uniquely uniquely placed to be able to craft a service and an an experience and then understand what it requires in order to kind of make that thing work and I think we need to understand as designers that we don't need to affect the entire organization because I think there's lots of there's lots of conversation at the moment of you need to you know in order to be a best service company you need to radically transform you know an organization of people in order to kind of deliver this service I think in our experience it's about knowing where to start it's about demonstrating that parts of an organization and parts of an operation can be changed and understanding that actually what you need to be able to do is to design the interface between the service and the experience as users or customers experience it with how the organizational how the organization operates it and demonstrate how that can work and that can be on a small scale or that can be a transformational scale but I think the key thing and the key thing that designers have is the ability to sit between a number of disciplines to talk multiple languages and then pull that thing together and not lose the essence of what we were talking about right at the beginning which is that sweet spot between okay Mr Jones Mr Akmed this is super valuable for you an organization this takes all of your boxes because that's that's the art and science a bit I think it's it's it's it's sort of important to to simplify what we actually do like that's probably Einstein who said it in order to it's probably the bono who said it like simplicity is the ultimate sophistication if you can explain simply like we are we're good at understanding the problem we are good at ideating solutions we are also good at actually creating it making it bringing it to life yeah and I think I think one common theme throughout all of your previous interviews was how do we how do we get stuff off the wall or you know exactly yeah he's um and I think it's um I think for us it's getting specific around skills and experience and I think one is talked about in a very generic sense is designers need business skills or designers need business acumen or how businesses work I think that's true but I think how far do you go right we would never expect a management consultancy to have two degrees in detail design right be able to understand the world so where is where are the overlaps and I think the overlaps and for us the overlaps have been understanding how design strategy interfaces with business strategy so understanding how you begin to feed that into decision-making processes I think it's understanding how a service operation is delivered at the point of interface and I think it's understanding how you reorganize yourself through a transformation program to achieve the design that you want that you've conceived of so I think if you see about business skills I'd like to talk about business strategy and design strategy um transformation plans and I'd like to talk about operational interface exactly I'm already visualizing a picture in my head like the the three steps that we talked about and then there's a sphere around it where we need to interface with the I don't know if this these areas that you just mentioned right there's a great book yes there's a great book called published in 1990 called the design dimension by Lorenz he was one of the first management consultancies to talk about design in the context of business he basically has a sort of artwork of a steam engine and it's called a sort of the pistons of a steam engine and design is the central piston that drives the wheels but he sort of says design is always a thing that is sat between technology marketing um I think it's technology but in a service organization that sits between operations that sits between strategy it's the same but I just need to contextualize what our business acumen means in more specific terms and for us it means those three things awesome I'll I'll draw the image and post it on LinkedIn or something like that and and get your response let's continue the conversation over there James final topic ready yeah fragmentation and integration okay I'm gonna go for how how can we so um you know it's I'd say the last sort of five six years I mean a bit of really interesting time for service design we've seen the sort of the blowing up of design thinking which sort of been a parallel track um but we've also seen very tangible evidence that design is seen as a very valuable thing and why have we seen that we've seen lots of large organizations take you know build big design capabilities in house so we think about IBM we think about um capsule one um we also think about um the acquisitions that some of the management consultancies are made so we look at Accenture we look at Accenture and Fuhrd we look at EY and Seren yeah look at um yeah McKinsey and Luna um and I think what's interesting you know from my perspective looking looking at from the outside in to that is I think two things are happening at the same time so I think um again with it with the maturity of service design I don't think we're seeing um a natural we're not seeing all service design companies follow the same natural curve and I think it's when mark when sort of uh disciplines get more sophisticated the market itself gets more sophisticated by its very nature so that brings me to want the first point which is about fragmentation so how do we understand that service design companies can have can be more fragmented in what they offer so if I look at some of the acquisitions that um say Accenture have made a lot of the their version of service design is a very digital version of service design so you know from their perspective is service design is a way of effectively helping an organization move through digital transformation and we can go further with you because we have these guys with these great design skills who can be able to kind of conceive of what that digital service now that's one flavor or one brand of service design um you know there are there are others there are ones which are predominantly around capability build so what we see is we see the guys going in and building services like so services the guys who are doing services I'm doing um you know they're going in building capabilities to help in the organization help themselves all that sort of stuff right and then there's another you know I would say we're in a slightly different engine for you know your international viewers I would say engine is is very much like a multi channel omnichannel agency you know we we uh are as comfortable in the in physical as we are in digital and it's about where our strength is is understanding the juxtaposition between those various various things um and I think the the likes of you know ideos etc have always sort of talked you know them work in that space as well so I think um one of the things I guess one of the hell might be is um clients who are buying service design um might be you know how do we how do we help them understand um our version of that how do we better articulate our version of service design and how do we support them to buy service design in a more informed and sensible way so we have like uh the equivalent of a service design phone book but I think it's an interesting you know it's been an interesting exercise in sort of saying how do you perceive this clients because obviously um you know we've we've been in conversations where they where they obviously don't quite know how to buy service design because they're going to go here's someone who's just you know developing digital here's someone who's doing everything here's a management consultancy you do you know talk about design thinking and here's actually a research agency so that is quite a complex um purchase process from a from a client's perspective so how do we ease that I mean I don't have we have some ideas of how we can support that but I think as an industry it's an interesting question like should we celebrate the diversity that we're now seeing within within service design rather than try and cluster everything together I'm I'm thinking about other fields that have that might have gone through the same challenge and the first field that comes to mind is like the the digital the web design field the interaction design UX design like everything uh is put up on a big pile and do we need to start applying and developing again an additional vocabulary like adding adjectives to service design training or service design research agency or digital service design agency is that the way forward um maybe um I guess the way I was imagining is I I think a lot of it starts with design and management education I can imagine that you might do sort of specialist modules in various versions of design execution um I think there's no coincidence for example that a lot of the guys at engine um we have a real split between perhaps people from a digital background but also people from a um product design background because we find actually it's those guys who are used to working with manufacturers and designing stuff to build it yeah so almost have the the inherent training to kind of go okay no I get this I know I know that I have to go and speak to HR and talk about their uh people on boarding process because that's part of what we need to deliver on the frontline so I can see it manifesting itself in design education um and I can also see it perhaps manifesting in um public bodies so the way the way that um you know say it's the service design network you know does the service design network have a different way you know because they're often a bit like the design council did previously like how do we help people navigate the design industry and buy in the right way that would be something that they could they could support clients clients with um and I think as we get better as agencies and and it's less of a problem I guess in-house because um although you know I'll be happy to hear from people if they think they've experienced these problems as well but certainly from an agency perspective if you've only worked with a if you're a bank and you've only worked with a digital service design agency that's your view of service design perhaps you don't think that you need to integrate your brand and your people training within that project there isn't it there's there's a there's an education piece within agency but not quite sure what that looks like we need a service design map like and we're you know on which island are you and what's what's what's more out there in in this land on this planet and sort of how instead of how far you can how far each entity can allow you to allow you to go because I think that's the other thing right sometimes you just need to bring someone in who's just going to help you work out what the proposition is and I you know come up with some big ideas and develop that vision that the whole organization can rally around we talk about that in our book so but sometimes you just need help and support with okay how on earth do we get this thing over the line and implement it now in order to be an end-to-end service design agency you would need to be massive because of the problems so another solution to that might be can can an old model work of you have these discrete separate service design companies or do you need more of a networked approach you can bring different disciplines in and out of that network and it's based around solving the problem and some sort of strategy organizations do that where they kind of you know bring in a have a loose a loose sort of collection of people they bring in around the problem but then you lose things like you know the design ethics we talked about before the methodology or the approach so this kind of fragmentation issue is a challenge it should be part of the conversation then being loosely tied together that's what yeah these kind of sort of bungee cords bungee it's kind of membrane where you can flex in and out and change the shape you already hinted upon something and this is your opportunity to make it to formalize it like is there a question that you'd like ask the listeners and the viewers of the show to think about and to comment upon I think I think a big question that we're dealing with a big question that's on my mind at the moment is in a world where design is being seen as valuable to businesses and an inherent part of how an organization remains successful and competitive how do we retain what made design special in the first place okay well think about that let's let's comment down below if you're listening to the podcast head over to the YouTube page and then comment down there James we're going to wrap this one up I want to thank you so much for your time I'm sure you could continue for quite a long time I'll I'll try to post some posts on LinkedIn to continue the conversation and there and let people join in let's do an experiment with that thanks thanks again man I appreciate it good to see you good to see you thanks so what's your take on James question how can we make sure that service design doesn't lose the thing that made it so valuable in the first place leave your comments down below and remember your comment might just be the thing that gives someone else his big breakthrough inside if you enjoyed this episode make sure to grab the link and share it with one other person today who might find it interesting as well thanks so much for watching and I look forward to see you in the next video