Ladies and gentlemen, welcome to another episode of the Amir approved message today. I got a special guest my good buddy Mauricio del Mauricio the Bartolomu. That's it. Exactly. He is the co-founder and chief strategy officer of lead in a Financial service company built for Bitcoin and digital assets Mauricio has been involved in the Bitcoin space since 2014 When in Venezuela he learned their friends were using it to earn income by mining and protecting their wealth by converting Into censorship resistant currency now residing in Canada He's been working on Bitcoin full-time since then developing technology to make it easier to hold and use Mauricio Welcome to the show my friend. Thanks for having me man. Always a pleasure to be here likewise man So I want to start off with your story in Venezuela take us through you know first of all How did you get involved in Bitcoin within Venezuela and then how do you up in Canada? Yeah, it's a it's a good question. So I guess I'll start by saying how I ended up in Canada first because that happened before I got into Bitcoin in 2003 I graduated high school in Venezuela. So Venezuela had Essentially here in Canada you do grade 12 and at the time you also had to do grade 13 But they had that too. Yeah, so in Venezuela. Well, actually, that was what was happening in Canada when I came In Venezuela you graduated after grade 11. Okay, so in after you graduated grade 11 I I really wanted to study abroad Chavez, you know had been ruling the country for a few years then My family and I had done a couple of years in Florida Basically, we went right after Chavez won the election because a lot of Venezuelans took the view that this was gonna be like Oh, just like a passing through president. Let's just get out of the country for a few years see what happens so we spent a few years in Miami actually and what are where a lot of Venezuelans went and Two years went by and my dad kind of my family didn't really feel at home there And my parents were having a hard time managing his business remotely Venezuela So we left we went back after two years kind of hoping that thing would fade away very quickly after but I had a different view and I still was very much excited and Really loved the idea of studying abroad. So I had a really good time in Florida I really wanted to stay outside of Venezuela and My father at the time didn't really want to send me to back to Florida to live with myself and do school but I did have a relative here in Toronto and I was sent here to kind of explore options somewhat reluctantly because I really wanted to go to the US but I came to Canada and Kind of serendipitously while here. It was actually in late September that I came here And while here I started going to universities because I was applying for university and they said oh forget it Like this is a double cohort year. You were graduating. We're basically winding down grade 13 So this year there's twice as many people fighting for spots in universities So I would honestly forget it if I were you this is what I was told by the universities I went to basically almost all of them in Ontario and I was essentially told that there was no chance forget it like What do you know the best thing you can do is go to a public school in Venezuela and transfer after one year which was You know if any of this one is like, you know, that's not it. That's enough. It's a non-starter. So I was like, okay Great, I guess I'm just going back home. And as I was getting ready to pack my bags There was a riot that broke out and it was a big one and I forget exactly which one it was but it was like late September 2002 and Actually, I think it was right in the middle of the the big The big oil there was a big shutdown a big government shutdown or a big country-wide shutdown of the main oil company right around that time I actually think that's what it was and it looked really bad like the whole country I was at a standstill it looked like Stuff was just starting to go down and my family was very much like you're not coming back Like you no matter what you have to do whatever. I don't care that you don't like the schools I don't care that you don't want to do grade 12.  I was like screw this. I'm not going back. I'm not staying and I woke up the next morning And I had a list from my aunt who had who I was staying with with a list of five schools High school high schools for me to check. I was very disappointed because I was like in my head I was like I'm going to university right now.  There's a building that says high school And then I was like, okay, like I guess things are just like something wants me to stay here So I had crossed the street I'll say the name because they were very kind to me. It's the York school here in Toronto And I crossed the street and I basically don't totally my spiel. I was the school you had already started And I didn't really bring much. I just had my laptop and like, you know small suitcase Not that I would need anything but they were super kind and they were like staying here and then from that moment on That's when I'm in Canada. So I did I did I did my grade 12 from there I applied to Western and I did my undergrad at Western, which is where I met Adam co-founder of lead in Made really great friends and that's kind of how my journey in Canada started now as this all was happening Now we get into the Bitcoin part. That's this how I came into Canada as this all was happening My family again was still back home. So I was the the only one in my family who actually went away to school So I would go back every summer. I would spend back every Christmas. I would spend back When I graduated I did a few years here But then I went back to do a couple projects with my family My family was very much always trying to get me to come back and you know build their business there They're very entrepreneurial so Obviously it was always a give-and-take as Venezuela was you know oil would rally things would do well oil would crash Chavez would do some bad things and it was just very much very volatile like so in Let's see. So right now. I finished my undergrad.  Maybe this is like a structural issue And I at that point made the decision that I was gonna stay for the foreseeable future in Canada up until then I was always debating should I go back should I this should I that when that happened I was like, okay Turn the page, you know, write this off for a few years like try to convince your family to leave And that was kind of my tune. I would always go back trying to get them to leave but My my brothers were in a completely opposite camp. They wanted to make things work in Venezuela no matter what and My father being an entrepreneur He always wanted us to have our own kind of ventures and they he would help us The brothers kind of pitch and he was a bit of an angel investor for all of us We would pitch ideas and he would you know ask us questions You'll write a check at the end if you liked it So I started he started asking me to kind of help him review my brother's My youngest brother, which is graduate at the time business opportunities Everything was like, you know, no to to risky politically associated with the country forget it forget it forget it Until he basically puts forward this idea of buying Bitcoin mining computers and this was in the summer of 2014 and I that was my first first time I got exposed to Bitcoin When I saw it, I thought it was interesting. I learned what a minor was I kind of over high level learn with Bitcoin was and what a minor how a minor fit into that equation So I thought I saw I saw the economics. I saw the I saw there was a bit of a trading market for Bitcoin and And I said sure like this out of all the stuff that you've tried and I also like that the economics are very compelling when So I love has essentially free hydro and and electricity was a main one of the main costs for mining Bitcoin I was like, you know, if nothing else give this a shot and That was summer 2014 Christmas 2014 like went back my brother's like smiles ear to ear And it's got like three times as many computers and I'm like, oh, I Didn't even ask him anything at the time because I was like even that even when I saw that how quickly the growth had been I was like, okay, something's up like this doesn't add up. So I want to talk to my dad. I was like that Do you what happened like that? Are you not looking did you just write him another check like what did I saw? I see a lot more stuff now and he was like, no, go talk to him. Those are all his machines He paid me back and at that so that was a moment where I was like, okay, like I missed something huge So I want to talk to him. He explained it to me. He showed me how much the machines were making what they cost What you know what the price Bitcoin had been in that last bit Yeah, and I was just that was like my aha moment where he I saw himself Bitcoin get the positive string to his bank account and And at that point I was like, okay I I couldn't even think about anything else other than Bitcoin and so I caught the bug from that moment on I essentially went down the rabbit hole Got really deep into Bitcoin and a couple of other coins that were at the time I just wanted to learn about the technology I did go through a learning process and I'm not opposed to any of the other stuff I'm just kind of sharing and what were you guys you guys were using you were using a six back then we were using a six and Yeah, it was a six at the time. I believe they were as fives or a sevens. I can't remember but yeah, and so that was kind of where I started my learning journey and They that was in Canada still back and forth So I saw that mining was this thing that was you know an opportunity that was only reserved for Venezuela You know and I was almost very frustrated that you know they were able to monetize this this beautiful new asset that I that we had all learned about yeah but I was sitting here in Canada, you know unable to kind of monetize or participate and so I was like, okay Well, the first thing I can do is just start to try mining back home And so, you know, I started mining with some of their machines Then I started helping other people might some of the machines bought my machines play place them with theirs And then I started then they started helping a lot more people mine because then over there it starts going quite viral So throughout this learning experience of essentially Well, maybe now I've jumped across of how I got into Bitcoin Yeah But then that what what helping a lot of these people build mining businesses and seeing everyone around me building Bitcoin businesses May expose me to the next biggest pain point in the Bitcoin space as far as I saw it Which was that we were all looking to make Bitcoin and it was great and accumulate as much as we could But to grow the businesses we had to sell it. That was really the only way you need a cash flow you needed cash flow to keep growing the business, but the cash flow your cash flow was your Bitcoin and Selling that Bitcoin carried a very high opportunity cost It's like every time you sold it if you sold it at the wrong time like oh man, that was a costly mistake Yeah, yeah, and so I started thinking about ways On how you could help Bitcoin businesses maintain that Bitcoin balance while giving them that cash flow And that's essentially how this the genesis for let in like the Bitcoin back loan idea came to be But yeah, I mean that I kind of took you through a Three stories there, but that's that's essentially how I built a lot of my thesis is around Bitcoin And so tell me the story like when was it he realized? It was too because right now it's a different landscape in Venezuela Like when did he realize it was kind of too unsafe or you couldn't continue doing business as you were doing usually down there That's a great question man The hard part about being in those systems is that it's a bit like You know frog and water right like you you just get so desensitized to certain things. So for example When I was young in Venezuela growing up like this is when I was like 14 or 15 I Distinctly remember my parents would give me a rate like a radius an area of the city where it was safe to be and it was a Significantly, you know, so obviously it wasn't a huge area. I'm not from a big city But in context like it was I would say like call it 25 to 30% of the city as as far as I knew it. So this is like just these are your boundaries, right? As you get older like those boundaries become smaller and smaller the times that you can be out become smaller and smaller and The things that happen to people around you The stories build up like oh so and so. Oh, he got robbed at 3 p.m. On this street. Yeah, like oh wow And then so and so got shot at you know 11 p.m. On that side of the street You know wow, but then and so as these things start encroaching on your Environment as the hours become small and followed you start finding justifications for things for example We used to love going to the beach. The beach is a two-hour drive from my hometown Normally you would when I was growing up You could drive to the beach at like 6 p.m. And like arrive by 10 You would still hear one or two people being like oh, yeah Like, you know what will drive straight to the beach after the bar like we'll have a DD a lot of times And people would just get out of it and then literally at 2 3 in the morning you would drive to the beach So this was like I'm talking way back in the heyday and you would have you would see people like on the streets and stuff Now it's like almost a death sentence to get in a car when it's not lit up outside It's because there are no street lights. So all of a sudden you were hearing I was hearing stories about my friends people That I knew getting robbed or shot on their way back from the beach and like 9 p.m But then what you hear is not oh my god our roads are becoming so dangerous. No the narrative becomes What's that guy doing at 9 p.m. Driving? He's lucky that they didn't shoot him Comes part of everyday life and you're just like and then as I'm looking at these things I'm like and to me I guess the what made it a harder for me was because I wasn't the frog that was always in the pot Because I was spending a lot of the year in Canada outside. Yeah, I would come back And so for example, I even remember this I distinctly remember You know, I would make a list of the things that I wanted to do and and you know in Venezuela Getting things done. I know it sounds trivial here But like in Venezuela everything's presence based still like phones don't work emails Don't work you have to go face-to-face do the things Yeah, sometimes it'll take you a whole day to get through like one bank errant and I would I would distinctly I know I would go in and I would say trying to get all my stuff in order and Get do all my list and like I would only get two or three things on and I would get frustrated And I would see my family were like, why are you frustrated? And I was like well because I only was able to do one thing out of the ten and they're like you can't like this isn't You know, you're gonna have a very hard time if you stay here with those expectations You have to change your expectations to like the things that can be done and I was like Well, if I do that then but but it was very hard because you know on one side You have that like you just continues your your life continues to like the things you can accomplish just become lower and lower But at the same time you have this like Underlying comfort that is 30 degrees all year round and the beach is always around but then when did you and your brother realize like? No bueno no more, you know So that that well that was actually a pretty easy one Because like I said to you my mind had been somewhat made up from the beginning But my family was still a bit reluctant to say hey, this is too much so They were we were they were all doing great and growing their mining operations until December 2017 December 2017 was they The so this is five years running mining operations Pretty much. Yeah, pretty much like that mind you the big growth happened like the first year was very Experimental second year like the bigger the big growth years were I would I want to say 2016 and 2017 okay Those were years roughly speaking within the industry five years two years of growth. So now 2017 what happens so okay, so in 2016 we start in 2016 and 2017 it was it was more and more people setting up machines and Wanting every time more and more help setting up bigger and bigger facilities We had at that point now become known as like the guys that would help you out, right? And so that was very rare because no one in this space would actually was willing to help you We were very different and that we just wanted to share. We thought this was amazing and we wanted to help people out and And so, you know at the end of 2017 Venezuela with this whole Petro effort which we can get into an all sorts of detail because you know There's a perception outside of Venezuela what the petrol was but that's not a petro coin. Yeah Venezuela Petra So the Petra was essentially a big organized campaign or away from a little to tell his cronies what a mining machine was and essentially that they could go and take them and change the wallet address and that no one would know and Essentially letting them know that they could go extort the new entrepreneurs Right because the everyone that had a import export business farms everyone had become a miner Like there was just no private business happening outside of mining. So the government was like, okay. Well, we need to Keep our crooks happy. Usually they do that by sending them to Industries or whatever and and asking or demanding for ridiculous things and so they'll get payouts and bribes in many ways So they needed a company that was Willing to pay our bribes, right and like every time there's fewer and fewer because they're decimating all of them So in the absence of any company to send them to get get bribes. They said, okay well, let's teach them What these machines are how much they make and where they can find them and how they can find them and It's quite simple and they'll go and grab them all right and they'll just extort up dollars And if not, they'll just take the machines. It's gonna be beautiful. Mm-hmm, and that's actually what happened So so you had a knock on the door. Oh, yeah, and myself and many and like many many Yeah, I can share lists to friends that had the same happen So what are they go down? Were they pretty blunt with he was like pay up. Yeah pretty basically 15k and your computers or you're gonna jail. Hmm and And obviously their response was like, okay, why like we don't break it We don't break any law like here's my import records. Here's all the hydro I paid like here's my internet bills Like what about this is illegal and they're like, no, but it's funny because at the time They had they had the backdrop of the Petra, which is we're making everything illegal Everyone can mine Venezuela is gonna become a tech But on the other side you had no if you're it's illegal you need to pay up or else And so it was funny because it was it was an interesting conversation back and forth because it was like Well a you're saying this morning. You said it was legal. Here's the registry I'm offering you to give you these things, but you're telling me that it's illegal Essentially, like you just want my machines. So like a lot of people that knew kind of how what what the Leavers were and you know, like what they could claim as their rights Some people still were under the impression that you had those in Venezuela You know, there's some pushback right because we weren't we didn't consider ourselves criminals Right, my brother or neither on none of us, but they were punctually they were after my brother at the time So we essentially took a very harsh stance. This is said. No, we're not breaking any laws Like we're willing to go go to court if you want like, you know, let's let's do this Let's dance because we're not like we'll win That's not that was actually like very rare. Most people just paid up and shut up And there's they still do today But so my brother in my brother's case They, you know, they would upset them that we weren't just willing to write a check Yeah, and They started threatening us with like, you know, they telling my brother They knew where he lived and where the kids went to school and all this stuff stuff that cops Should never be telling you right So my brother is like at this point. I remember my brother was the only because these are federalese. Yeah Yeah, these are the feds. Yeah, so My brother was alone in Venezuela at the time my brother my bet my dad was out of the country My other brother was out. I was out. So it was scary So he he was scared. He was like, you never thought that the next thing they would say after you said No, I want to actually like go through the due process. It's like there is no due process that you're in jail So that was like the last thing anyone expected.  So my brother made the call to leave the country overnight. He drove to the border With him and a couple of friends that didn't you know, we're look kind enough to do a convoy Like I said, you don't drive at night in Venezuela.  Yeah, so They he drove on a convoy with a bunch of cash was able to get through to Colombia He we fought the case legally from abroad essentially He's now been fully part like there's the case has been dismissed He's been given a full kind of a reinstatement of you know, no laws were broken So he's free to go in and out. He still hasn't gone back My my youngest and my dad they still go back and forth in and out once in a while but I think To me Personally speaking it was a bit of a blessing in disguise because my my family needed to be shocked In order to be taken out because it's a very hard decision to make the man And leaving your old culture your family friends way out of life You know, and you know, frankly like they still think of going back That's no matter with you know, even after all of these things funny you bring that up I asked my mom. She's former Eagle slot former Yugoslavia And sometimes she tells me she's like even even with the war Isn't all that sometimes I think I should have stayed I Think I sometimes I think I should have stayed. Yeah, I people ask me all the time like You know the question you just asked me like when did you decide it was enough? And then the other one that I get a lot of times is like do you think it was a right move?  Yeah, because you never know Like how could I ever know and great? I'm doing a lot of here things a lot of good things now But like if I had stayed back there and I'm again, I'm going a bit on limp here But if you had stayed in a place like Venezuela or if your mom had stayed in a place like Yugoslavia your mind Sometimes, you know, you can't shut it down a lot of times you will read about something terrible That's happening in Venezuela and something that perhaps it was very close to you where you could have done something about it but no one did and like people died and you hear like really really shitty stories and quite frankly man like Sometimes I think here to myself that I'm here fighting to make the world more efficient and more amazing for A lot of people that already have a very efficient very amazing world and I can't help but think that Perhaps what I do today compared to what I could be doing is selfish because there are people that are literally Starving and their lives could be materially improved if they just learn basic English Right, but no one's doing that there People are here trying to set up fortune 500 companies and go public So the question then is how do you create initiatives to actually fix things that make a difference? Right for example the example right now you gave us about English Let's say you and I have three million dollars to deploy for this You know, we'll get it down there How do we start? So now that's the thing, you know people that there's cognitive dissonance like I want to change and this I'm like, okay Let's stop. Let's talk facts like what can we actually do? Well, that's realistic that we can start if you want to open up a very like Galaxy brain conversation about the shortcomings of Bitcoin as a solution Yeah, which there are a lot of shortcomings.  Yeah, arguably What is it six months ago February we had every Top media personality every billionaire anyone that's anyone in The world of show business was about Venezuelan Concerts at the border like every every celebrity was down there playing efforts truck the whole world Was there trying to open up that border and get that food in remember? I Think we even had a chat about actually talked about this. Yeah, I remember okay. What has changed since then probably nothing Like most movements or anything a lot of times is for optics and for politics and to get fucking votes and so Now again, then here's another issue that I have right like and and this is why I'm so The the result of all of this You know Frustration is what's what's pushed me to dedicate all of my resources to Bitcoin because I feel that It's so my my frustration is that I can teach Venezuelans all I can about Bitcoin And I can do my best and get everyone on board at the Bitcoin and away from there will you add and all this stuff at best at best Medium or short term that just allows someone to escape Mm-hmm at best your best. Yeah, right Best case scenario Right if a large number of people do this, right and they escape What's the net result of that and? How is that different from what's been happening? So in essence sorry to maybe to get to the end I Think Bitcoin accelerates Something that's already happening in this world Which is that whenever anyone in a in a non-free country gets a windfall payment The first thing they do is they become free mm-hmm first by sending their money away Then slowly they start sending their families in an absence of being able to send themselves like for example a Chinese business Person that makes a million bucks First thing they'll do is by a condo in Vancouver, Toronto course next thing I'll do is they'll send all their children to University in Canada to get passports here and blame them.  I'll do the same thing Everyone will do the same thing or anyone outside of OECD countries looking to get in. Yeah, that's safety man That's it freedom and safety. Yeah, so Perfect. So, okay, let's let's play this out I'm escaping my capital. I'm escaping my people. This is great because on the surface More people are becoming free right the flip side of that is Venezuela right now has become a swamp of Corruption Despair and absolutely zero moral values because anyone with some values made money and left. Yeah If we the free now reconvened people Only care about Helping more of us come here and not and not about what's really being left behind At some point that's gonna break right like at some point that that balance should Create some sort of compromise in that there'll be more people There are unfree and willing to lose more because that's the other the other flip side of the argument is that when you're rich And you're free you've way too much to lose to go into a fight. Of course way too much But when you're not rich and when you're not free sign me up So do you see how that that scares me a little bit? Yeah, but you gotta look at history too For example revolutions don't work. They work temporarily like a good example of revolutions has been happening non-stop is Latin America and precisely Cuba Every like 15 to 20 years is a revolution Cuba. It's a multitude multivariable factor when it comes to Even Venezuela because it's not just in Venezuela. You have geopolitics. The United States is involved Russia's involved China's involved. You have all these big Geo powerhouse is involved. It's a different story when you're talking about just United States It has one of the biggest Navy in the world the nukes, right? Mm-hmm, you know, but when you're talking about Pick any country in Latin America pick any country in the Middle East Whatever it's not just them you have all these other players involved and each of them has their own incentive to be there specific reasons obviously resource protection resource gathering at bottom line Collateral damages citizens of that country. That's the reality no matter where you go and then you go into the debate the moral ethical But debate what do you do?  Mm-hmm. Gonzo. Gonzo. Most people are I'm not even gonna think about it I'm gone. I think like, you know conflict or war as we know it is gone like no country right now has the the I don't know the Democratic support to go like politics is hard to sell. Yeah, it's very hard to start to sell It doesn't mean it's not gonna happen like I am a little bit scared right now like Eric Weinstein talks about this, too and We've we've had Especially in the West so Western Europe North America we've had For the first time ever in history the longest stretch of peace Like well, like okay Korea war World War two World War one We have a gender. We have a now a generation You know since like the 80s till now. There's never experienced any conflict But with peace, you know, there's always a flip side to peace. You have this kinetic Energy that builds up this boiling pot political boiling pot You can see in the States now like polarization left forces right like they're like this apart You know fighting and bickering each other You know, I don't want to be cynical, but I think everything's sick like in life I don't think Things eventually will pop off somewhere Last for a little bit calm down, you know, like all good empires empires fall You know the question the question what do you do it's like It's a big moral ethical question number At least for me, it's like I want to protect me and my family Yeah, no, I'm right on the table shelter once I'm taking care of me and my family I can then take care of other people, you know, there's a good roomie saying Yesterday I was clever.  I I'm with you. I'm with you. I you know frankly to be you know to bring it back to bitcoin like I I am I love with the idea of what bitcoin is like because I've you know It's so what's a current landscape right now in in 19 2019 in venezuela and crypto in bitcoin primarily Yeah, so venezuela current state the whole country is dollarized Everything is in dollars everything's usd from a carrot to a pack of smokes to a water bottle To a car you'll get quoted to a taxi ride Everything's quoted in usd So how does it work you get paid in boulevards and then people are flipping it right away? Yes, it's a hot potato.  So like a lot of our social programs like they only pay out bolivores as part of their what do you call it? Pension plans are paid in bolivores like it's it's always for the biggest loser essentially is the ones that gets the bolivores Practically speaking like from a day to day venezuela. No one wants them. No one touches them like it's the last thing people want to carry Bitcoin it's still You know dollars are everywhere people carry them there There's almost like a market if your bill has like Lines on it or not or like little writings things on it like a lot of people have What do you call it? You know those bill things that where you can see if they're Forged or not like they they have like these little pens that they draw on or even the lamps that oh, yeah the uv lights Like all everywhere man. Like everyone has like a make sure it's not coming for yeah Everyone has like a forex stand on their business A lot of things are dollarized.  Like I can see your dollars, but I need dollars back.  Yeah, it's like over there.  Yeah um So largely it's it's mostly dollarized There is increasing use of bitcoin for I want to say general things. Um, so there's um Companies now they're putting points of sale for crypto in their biggest kind of chains in the country So like the big pharmacy announced that there's now some of their locations are starting to take a crypto payment Uh, kind of a neat feature actually by our friend a good friend of mine, Jorge And here's a company called crypto buyer and he's doing point of sale systems Where people from abroad can prepay for medicine Into pharmacy and have someone in minnesota go pick it up. That's pretty cool So it's great for everyone because a lot of people a lot of guys like myself or people that have left Just have older relatives back home that they all need medicine.  Do you know how many people cross that bridge every day? No idea 50,000 people.  Yeah, and um And every day like not like one day 50 that like every day is a sea of people Uh, and now at an interesting chat. So now we've been we've been expanding to colombia minnesota and a bunch of other markets And I've been talking to a lot of people there Uh, and uh, one of the very cool things that I heard was that People are using the atm People are going acrossing the border taking out a piece of paper with 24 words And figuring out that they can withdraw in colombia And they're not they're not crossing with gold or dollars which gets taken Nine times out of course man. So these people are actually now crossing with these words And they're taking out, you know, 40 60 dollars worth of pesos from this atm Uh, and they're taking their groceries for the day and going back minnesota A lot of minnesota's go to go to colombia for groceries and and medicine for every day There are minnesota people that send their kids to colombian schools Um, and make them cross every morning. So and it's becoming you know more and more thing to do So the fact that this is You know percolating to the people that are crossing the borders on foot like big way started at the very top Like when I first heard about bitcoin in minnesota, I was my brother and like The kid of like the two richest guys in town Pay to play right floors of empty buildings and they had like, you know thousands of dollars or you know hundreds of thousands of dollars to bring in an equipment Uh, those were the guys that started it out Where I got really excited about bitcoin The guys that started doing the installs for us were all my dad's former construction workers like electricians guys That you know, they're really great guys, but they just you know, they didn't go to university They didn't speak english. They were just the hustlers. Yeah, that's right. Yeah First first time they installed this sort of setup for us It was I don't know I think the first one that we did with them was like, I don't know 20 machines or something like that And you know, they do they're doing the setup like things normal my block then they do the second setup The second setup was like 30 and so the first setup was like, okay, cool, believe it. It's what's this bitcoin thing Oh interesting Second time around they're like, so what does this bitcoin thing do and like, oh, how like how do I do it? Like can I how do I try this? How would I learn about this and we start sending them things Third installation so from one to the third one probably like six months between the three Third installation the guy is like, I want to get paid in bitcoin. Here's my address And that was I was like, oh man, this is going to be amazing Wow, because that's how it happens. You know, people see and they emulate they learn And so you you think this is going to stay at the top But it never does and never does people clue in very quickly So to me that's been really fascinating So you're seeing more venezuelans accepting it as a form of payment. Yes, I you know Full disclosure, I haven't been able to go back in two years. Sure. So I don't blame you conversations With that I've had with a lot of my friends. Yeah, they're still there. I talk to them like daily And um largely It's it's exciting. It's exciting to me because you know It's working as intended, right? Like that's the whole that was the idea People could cross these borders. That's the whole point. It's peer-to-peer cash You know censorship resistant peer-to-peer So that's where it's at now More and more people are using it That political landscape as far as where there will be change or not It's a complete toss up like if I said, you know in february You know our our hopes were at 130 for change. Yeah, venezuelan hopes right now are like negative 30 Like no no one is hopeful of any change Government has done a really good job at you know making the opposition look like crap again They yeah, they just they make it fall apart every time So yeah, right now it's it's gridlocked really politically More not even gridlocked. It's like they are running the show the bad guys and no no real chance of Uh nothing fair elections anytime soon.  Yeah, I was beater. Yeah What's What's your thoughts generally speaking from like a global perspective? Like where do you see Bitcoin in general heading currently? Um Let's take a question. I mean My view right now is that there's there so people discovered bitcoin, right? Like largely people in emerging countries that that had a use for replacing their capital So I I say joke half jokingly that If you have to explain big with someone they probably don't need it At this point, that's a good way of saying it. Yeah 10 years in anyone that needs bitcoin Somewhat knows or has heard about it People that don't need bitcoins are largely people in the OECD countries Like you have a hard time explaining it to them, right? Like when when your conversation to explaining to bitcoin somebody has to open up with do you know what inflation is? That's gonna be a hard sell As I say north america is not the good enough. It's probably the worst market for adoption. Yeah 100% Yeah So what I have seen is so as at least from what I've witnessed as far as the evolution Uh when people saw bitcoin they were like, okay, great unstoppable money Incredible incredible benefits over the u.s. Dollar because the u.s. Dollar gets censored. Mm-hmm amazing I think right now we're in somewhat of a In between phase where altcoins have not yet gotten shut down by the government They're not altcoins stablecoins, right? Because the idea of stablecoins I mean if if this is what you do if you sell me a stablecoin as An unstoppable u.s. Dollar. Yeah. Oh boy That is a great proposition sure for anyone in that time or any part of the world It has a u.s. Buying power and doesn't fluctuate. What? Yeah. Are you kidding me? That's like The killer app Right people want banking in you as dollars Venezuela turkey Russia everywhere. They want That's all they want like if you ask these people like how could your life be improved? They will say I would like a bank account In a currency that is not a game Right that you would literally materially improve people's lives Governments are reluctant to do that because they lose their rights on their senior edge. They lose their rights on their You know exchange rate to the value of the currency and well, they just lose everything gone. Yeah, there There's blocks around the world to have us bank accounts around the world So right now we're in this Quasi and we're very interesting period in that there's still this general perception that stablecoins are okay Like stablecoins are not going to hurt anyone and the governments are just going to let them be and As long as that's out there, I think stablecoins will continue to gain interest This is not taking away from bitcoin. All I'm saying is if Given the chance and you're telling a 45 year old person in venezuela that just made $300,000 Whether they want to place all of it in this volatile asset or some of it in an unstoppable version of a dollar and some of it in this asset More and more people are going to choose to have some of it in dollars a large part Oh, I would almost suggest it because you don't want to have all of your stuff unless you really want to have all your eggs One basket, right? And so right now there's this perception of rosy blue skies for stablecoins. Yeah, and Me as long as that's there, I think they're going to become more and more of a important tool in the crypto basket call it but I'm also skeptical to think that When governments start noticing what these stablecoins are and what they're actually doing they're not going to be like nope So depends like you look at for example, us dc Yeah, you know that one's fully regulated audited with a peg to usd So that's fully under regulations of whatever sec or any American government sanctions, right fine usd t's a little bit. I don't even know the story of that. That's Fine, but there's now the no usd t or t usd Like there's just a lot of them at a lot of places. Yeah, right, but I think that you know And again, I don't know how this is going to play out. It may be The way I understand a stablecoin I don't see why any government should oppose the stablecoins being backed in the reserve by their own currency There are not a post that I think they're opposed to something like a libra Or something like a dye where it's not actually directly correlated or audited to usd Because with a it the problem is the labeling when you look at usd t or c whatever it's not technically a stablecoin It's technically a pegged coin right because it's pegged and audited like Likely one to one right, right? So there's a bank account. There's a Third-party multi-party auditor.  Cool, right? That's not an issue because you're still hedging you rely on the You rely on the you rely on usd to uh to hedge it or peg it The interesting thing is like libra stuff or like the dye stuff where it's like Non-pegging I I would argue I would I would push back slightly on that and I would say That the biggest risk for the government. Yeah in my view at least and we had we had this chat when we were talking about libra is that As the venezuela and regime or as the cuban regime or as india or as iran or you name them The second I allow People to start transacting in these dollar like tokens and they become legal When venezuela Or argentina like let's give the example of argentina right now Argentina can say You know, whatever they want. Yeah right now, but they have a currency control. Yeah When you say you have a currency control and here's the problem right like in the past When a country would institute a currency control, they would basically push back by saying don't worry. This doesn't affect the average person This only affects the people that travel This only affects the people that import goods from abroad like this won't affect the normal person So don't worry. This is only for the rich and if you see the rich getting mad on tv Now, you know why we're getting the money to you and so that that narrative sells because it's like, okay That's it makes sense. I don't travel makes sense. I don't know if things from abroad makes sense No guys are really mad. Great. They must be getting more money then And it's like great that that that's how they kind of taper down that that concern What's happening now is like when you introduce stablecoins into things like facebook Is that now all of a sudden your day-to-day life Actually becomes better because you start spending in dollars You start thinking about less things and then all of a sudden you're like, why do I even have to take these? Bolivars Like why would I need them? They don't they don't so the government actually next time they need to impose a capital controls They're gonna have to say Hey guys, don't worry This only affects the people that travel and the people that bring imported goods and the people that are rich And what's gonna happen? The kid that was been you know, the kid that's been playing farmville is gonna say no it affects me too I can't play farmville and I can't I can't play for I can't pay for my Storage month every day for my app And my business shuts down now my small marketing agency that I use to run media social media for companies abroad I can't do that without libra So no actually I'm gonna stop what I'm doing and go protest because you can't put that currency control So it actually encroaches Incredibly on Anyone that doesn't have a reserve currency as their own People that have their reserve currencies as their own they don't they're not ever thinking of getting out of their currency Yeah, everyone else in the world is And I think the biggest problem is In fact, I'm actually surprised That the us the the government of the united states and and the european union this as far as I understand them This benefits them so long as they can keep control on those reserve on the reserve always being held in their two coins Yeah, they can make libra the proxy for the world and we'll see what happens like I don't Yeah I kind of approach it with You got to look it from like a strategy, you know, it's like I always wonder why facebook didn't just launch it As opposed to then make this public announcement and go through this kind of road show like I always ask that question Why right Something more to this and meets the eye probably um It's a regulated federated node system Right, meaning it's hundred percent regulated, right, you know, the government can be all nodes if they want, right, you know They can say hey node a Why blacklist all these things right, right? So it's not like ooh magic internet money. That's like right censorship resistant is like So for me, it's like I think it's a net utility win for crypto in general I think it's better than having a boulevard or Turkish lira or whatever like horrible currencies But I think there's much more to this story that we don't see yeah for sure And I always find it interesting where it's like I don't see this as a threat as you mentioned because it's 100 Regulated like beyond regulated. So what are we not seeing here? That's the story I'm not sure man.  I was very excited when I first learned about libra. Yeah um, because I think that What I saw when I when people learn about bitcoin and people learn about What inflation is and what taxation by inflation is like it's a very hard concept to get your head around very hard Really, you think so? I think so man, especially if you don't have I mean listen We we just show people I showed them a dollar and I'm like, hey 2 per cent per year plus other inflationary models and products. So let's say average three We take this doll. I rip I rip three percentage. This is your buying power the next year I ripped that off and so forth and so forth and so it's like let's fast forward a decade You know, let's say two times 10. That's 20 percent, right? It's like here you go. Here's 80 cents Well, yes, but I mean the question again Someone that that is great, but that that person that you're explaining this to has to have a basic understanding of What what money is who who makes it? Why is it going down? Like, you know, when you say to somebody hey, you're losing 3% of your purchasing power every year Then you just show them supply and demand curves I think for the most part people if you show them in like Specifically if you have like props and you're using like diagrams or whiteboarding they can get it It's like hey guys, so what happens and you can use like analogies is like, okay You know, we have 10 bananas and each banana is worth a dollar Then what happens the next year when we have 20 bananas each bananas worth 50 cents And so forth and so forth, you know, I wish it was that simple I guess what you have to go against in Venezuela is this narrative of For example, so in Venezuela you'll get the dollar. There's there's a The government rate for the dollar. Yeah And then the government obviously never updates the rate. The rate is a complete sham And then the black market rate emerges, right, which Those who know about economics, you're like, well, is is that the only rate in which you can trade freely? Yes. Well, and then that's the rate So then you start referring referencing the dollar by that rate, right And that rate moves very fast very quickly So when you tell someone that is Let's just say not on your camp as far as seeing either I think and you say to them Hey, are you looking at the dollar skyrocket? Like are you are you seeing this? And then the the response you'll get will be Yes, it is the corporates who are Basically withholding all of their dollars from the supply because they want to shoot the price up to make a government look bad That's the ignorance you're up against and 20 years in millions of deaths and exiles and Hundreds of not thousands of killed politicians later you still get a lot of that and How do you get through those people like the real the some of these people Will only get there themselves after they hit rock bottom themselves. I don't think so you can get through people for the most part I think changing human behavior So the two things changing human behavior And changing the way someone views the world is almost impossible You know, there's different lines of thoughts out there Do we have free will or we hard coded to behave a certain way?   No, no motherfucker. I'm gonna go war with you.  You know what? We can do this too, right and like let's go toe to toe There is it's hard for me to explain and it's hard for me to say and a lot of it is is is just Just politics being politics, right like There were a lot of uncapped promises before chavis.   I don't know but they went balls to the wall um I got you know, I've gone to cuba a lot and it's They call it communists, but That's your definition of communism.  I don't know what it is. It's like weirdest system I've ever seen Um, and there's still people there screaming. Hey government.  You have cognitive dissidents, right? And you have all these like social pressures build up or it's like meh Well, and that's I mean to me the you know A that's that's uh I got that and I think very similarly and that's a hard pill to swallow Many times especially because it's it's it's not a hard pill to swallow until it happens to you Yeah, right like I'm totally fine talking about q&b and like oh, yeah No, let the ones who want to stay stay like and let the ones who want to leave leave That's how it's a great setup, right? except When you're the one that wants to leave But your family is the one that wants to stay.    I can't be mad at her.  They sent me out. They did their best.  You know, I don't think so. This is a blame game. No, no, it's not It's not but eventually you're frustrated and when you're frustrated all you want to do is fix it Of course, right. That's how I have work, right every time I come across something. I'm like, okay great This is how you're feeling perfect separate yourself from the emotion. How do you fix it? What are the steps to fix it? What if you can't It's also the definition of fixing, you know, people try to fix things as like Let me fix when is it will or any country as a whole you can't And I rather fix one person if I can or I don't even I don't like the word fix or assist Yeah, one person Yeah, you never know where that you never know where that one person will end up or what he or she does, right, you know Well, and that's the thing right like so many people Played a role in who I am today So many people people like I grew up my whole life in Venezuela Like the people that made me who I am today largely Are nowhere to be seen for me nearby or like I can't go up and say thank you right like it doesn't happen And a lot of those people that did a lot of things for me They can't leave they're still there they Like I can't help them Does money help them? No I can I can so I'll give you a specific point I'll give you I'll give you the case of like my nana the girl who I grew up with her She wants to be close to her family too Doesn't matter how way in what conditions they're in like the best thing I can offer to her I can say to her hey, I'll fly you over you can work with me. You'll earn dollars. Like you'll be free Well, she's the way she sees it.    Um, I would love that world or I would love that but You know and Part of it too.  You know what like Maybe that's maybe that is life is figuring out how you're gonna fix it and and having to go through all these things And this is this constant cycle of that's buddha saying like the suffering but people view suffering as a negative connotation Um, it's how you perceive it So it's like maybe maybe that's it. Maybe maybe maybe my job is Do have this chip and to build things around bitcoin because maybe that leads to some other people to get another Fucking massive moment and you ever read victor frankels book man search for meaning. No, oh god. No, I have not I'll take a read. I wanted I want to read the three body problem or the third Third body problem or the three body problem. I don't know that book It's like a it's like a really dark book about like statistics and like read victor frankels book. I will I will It's epic. Yeah, I'll read it but But yeah, man, I mean we've gone with we've gone through the through all of the venezuelas and back but Yeah, it's uh This never ends.   The wife has a brighter future Oh, of course. I and the long tail you can help more people that way I say that all the time if her house isn't built. How are you gonna help build other people's houses? That's that's you know, shannon asked me this when I spoke to her speaking of crypto that was like her Last question or something like that. I think she was like, you know, is it was leaving the right decision? and And my answer was that is like I I I hadn't left.  Maybe people are like, uh, whoever's listening to this right now Maybe you can explain to them how that service works with let in. Yeah, sure So what we do is we build two products, uh, essentially let in what we build this is a is a suite of services that help you hold bitcoin for longer or save in bitcoin I think a lot of people talk about, you know spending in bitcoin There's not enough conversation about saving bitcoin is incredible saving technology like people don't understand It's not about getting rich quick is about getting poor slow That's your new tag line so it's uh You know keeping bitcoin allows you to benefit from the debasing of every other currency, right? So that is really to me. I see the savings, uh, in essence, uh, so Where we saw that a lot of people had a hard time was just keeping the bitcoin like bitcoin is Is your highest and most liquid asset in the auto market? So by virtue of that whenever you have a little crunch It's the first one through the block through the chopping block because there's the best one the only one you can sell what we do is For people that have worked very hard to earn a little bit of bitcoin And they don't want to sell it because they have very high expectations of the future price They can place that bitcoin as collateral and take a dollar loan And the way that works is if your bitcoin keeps rising in price, that's all yours to keep And that's fiat you got and you get fiat usd. Yeah, you get dollars us dollars are kidding. Yeah. Yeah And essentially you have your loan commitment in dollars. You can use your dollars So if i'm in venezuela right now or anywhere in latin and mexico, I know you guys working there too It's like a log in. Yeah, I can put up my bitcoin. Yeah Whatever collateral three to one. Yeah, let's say I put a thousand bucks of bitcoin That means I can take 300 of cat or usd. Yeah 500 we do 50. Oh 50 percent okay So I take 50 percent so I take 500 bucks that goes directly to my bank account in mexico. Yes, yes Where do you want so so any bank account that I own? Yes, it has to be by your name. It can be in any country Yeah, I control it. Yeah, and some people we've had some clients that actually don't have usd accounts in venezuela Precisely. Yeah, and they want to receive it the rails. They want to use to get the funds is bitcoin Even though the loan is in dollars Okay, so they're putting up bitcoin to get bitcoin correct They're putting a bitcoin to get dollars, but the way they can get those dollars the easiest It's kind of like fucking what daia was doing with like east going long going long on bitcoin Well something similar exactly so in essence on first glance you can see it as you're going super long But what these guys are doing is they're converting the bitcoin once it hits their wallet again Going back to their local account makes sense. Yeah, and it makes a lot of sense So, um, you know, we started and so a lot of people are demanding stable coins So they're paying go back in bitcoin since they can't send And uh So they're they're putting in bitcoin. Yes sending them bitcoin. Yes, then for them to pay back the loan They're paying back in bitcoin. Correct. Yes. Yes. Um, and so What this has done is that it helps people. So for example, I had a guy I've give you it's but I can't really give you the exact name But like I've had so many people reach out and be like this is amazing I wanted to buy another mining computer, but I didn't want to sell my bitcoin Now I'm gonna get a loan and I just bought it. Yeah, and it's amazing Another guy was like, I really wanted to start a music festival a music festival of all things like I never expected that answer But he said with my $5,000 whatever loan I started work on my first music festival Like the version's coming out. This is incredible. Like I want to share this news with you guys and We're excited like these people are again may go and sweat that guy on video Well, they're they're actually getting interviewed. So we had two two media publications I'll share the articles when they come out, but they're actually interviewing a lot of our clients Because they're excited about some of these stories It's been amazing like honestly, it's and it was great because in canada You know It's been amazing to see the difference Of reactions when you present the product in these two different markets because in canada people can get, you know Not everyone but most like a lot of people can get a mortgage for 3% 2% now they're going into like negatives Banks are now soon going to pay you the freaking they're going to pay you take out a mortgage But let's keep that aside and let's say all the city countries have relatively great access to credit Yeah I want to use my bitcoin for a mortgage on commercial real estate. Well, you came with us Well with these guys Essentially in Venezuela and when what you're seeing is, you know, when you're in canada and you're saying, okay Here's a no the option for a bitcoin back loan. This is what you use. This is what it's good for This is how it works And it's great and it's amazing and people use it But it's not like, uh, oh my god, you solve every problem like blah blah blah because people have relatively good access to debt So they compare us to say, you know, a line of credit or a credit card or things like your interest rate. It's pretty cheap We pay 1% a month. Yeah, yeah, and we have a 2% admin fee But a 1% per month on and charge daily. So the day you pay back. That's the day. Oh cool Um, so in In mexico to give you some context How much what do you think the interest rate is a mexico for a mortgage?  It's bought on. Yeah, so 14 percent for a mortgage in mexico And anyone that's applied for credit outside of the oacd countries knows that it's not always about what's the headline Nobody forget man. Like, uh 1989 91 92 93 it was 19.5. Yeah in canada. Yeah You know, my dad actually ended up once paid 88 percent for a commercial loan in venezuela. How long uh, this was I think this was in like late 80s 88% yeah Well, this is this is rates in venezuela, right? So in mexico when we when we presented our products crazy People were like, you know, i've been at conferences here in canada And i've you know, i've been on the booth and presented our stuff and people are like, oh, wow The mexico is your prime target, man. Dude, so we knew that from we've been working on mexico for a long time So we got to mexico and i gotta look at my boys in guadalajara. Oh, let's do it. I'm actually going to mexico november cool So we show up in mexico. We start presenting a product and people are like coming in like with these Shock faces, right? They're like, oh my god. What what really? And we're like, yeah, like right.  Yeah, and I was like, what do you mean? It's like 1% a month for dollar debt Yeah, what what no one's going to qualify like why do I need to call the book nothing bro? All you need is bitcoin. Yeah, you got collateral. It's there and they're like And what I'm like, no, that's it. It's like bitcoin. You give me your bank account. I'll send you the money. He's like Ah, he's like, no and I was like, no, it's like for 1% a month And I was like, yeah, we have a 2% on min fee. So the whole thing if you keep it for a whole year is 14% He was like, that's amazing. Like it was just like everybody was like, that's incredible. That's incredible.  Yeah, and we're like, well, it's we raised funds from Canadian investors And our job is essentially to treat a bitcoin back loan from Canada as the same like I have the same collateral I issue the same money Why am I going to charge them a different money? Exactly, right? Like and I think that's the biggest thing about Excites me the most about what we do is that bitcoin now is a fully globally liquid asset And this is going to change materially. We haven't really seen that tip of the iceberg on this like in Venice Like in countries like Argentina you got a hundred thousand dollars 10 years ago You would probably put it in like a house Or a car or this now you get a hundred thousand dollars. Where are you going to put it all in Argentina? You're not going to put a little bit into bitcoin You're going to put it outside of Argentina And so I think that this This is going to be a big impact and and we love the fact that our product Is able to essentially help people hold bitcoin when they want to And that that's essentially it. So in Venezuela like I'm very happy It's the market that we're very focused on Mexico, Argentina actually everything that's happening there is opening a lot of doors We're getting a lot of applications from there Mexico is actually growing sadly Again, I say sadly because when we have a growing bitcoin market, usually something's going badly somewhere else But essentially there are great markets and I think that People need this kind of service to be able to see the true benefit of holding bitcoin long-term. Yeah But yeah, that's that's in a nutshell I'm very excited about Going back to where we're from essentially. I love it man. Well, Mauricio. Thank you for sharing your story If you had one message to tell people, what would that be? man Don't fight with your family Uh, or at least it's not worth it at the end of the day. It's not worth it. Just try to fix it Try to keep them close I always have a saying with like some family members like I love you, but I don't respect you They're two different things.  You take everything for granted. Yeah, I read an article about uh, I read an article the other day about essentially what happens to a man when they lose their father Like what the life changes that you go through and like the fear of god that like strikes you and it's I've been really blessed I think because I've had a very Supportive seems like your father was a good father. He's amazing. Oh man. I love the guy at the death. He's still my boy. Um, but uh, you know it's You're tempted always to fight and find things to fight about with your family And you're always trying to think what you're doing better and blah blah blah and how things aren't fair or this or that but All that stuff is going to go away one day.  So Yeah, just keep thank you I appreciate that if people want to get in contact with you follow Aladdin's doing best resources Uh twitter, I would say it's probably the best place to find us At huddle with ledin is there a handle for for ledin and myself? I'm at krypton amista at krypton amista So it's a cryptonomist with an a at the end. So yeah Reach me out anywhere there. All right guys. Go follow marisi. I'll go check out ledin and I'll see you guys soon. Peace