I'm Tom Nato from Brocade. I'm going to show you a demo of the Brocade viata controller running as a VPN gateway solution with OpenStack. This is a proof of concept that we've done jointly with Comcast in the US. Also, if you have questions, feel free to raise your hand during the presentation or whatnot. This demo is going to be pretty interactive. So if you want to see something, let me know. But I'll go through the basic scenario here. We're also doing this demo at our booth. So if you want something more in-depth or in detail, you can stop by the Brocade booth. So what what we tried to do here was we we have a use case where Comcast has multi-site video distribution and they wanted a dynamic and flexible way to position video servers. And so the solution here is to provision VPN tunnels that are not only inside of the Comcast network, but also to show that this can work for extra net capability. For example, if they wanted to use a cloud provider or whatnot to go off-net. We also used a demo high-speed broadband access trial that Comcast has going on right now as well to connect one leg of the demo. The demo is fully v6 capable as well. And then we're controlling the entire setup using the Brocade Viata SDN controller, which is an open daylight based controller. So this is a this figure describes what's going on in the demo. There are three sites. One site is Comcast in Philadelphia. One site is actually my house which has broadband residential high-speed access through Comcast's special high-speed v6 service. And then the other is our lab in San Jose. You can see there are VPN tunnels connecting each of the sites. There's actually a third one here that's not drawn. These are tunnels that carry VPN traffic between the sites. And not only between the sites, they're used to also handle what is the San Jose site, which is in effect an extra net site, so it's off-net. Whereas these two sites are actually on the Comcast network. What we've done in the demo is we've set up the three sites. We've provisioned the three sites using OpenStack and we provisioned the Viata V routers, which are the gateways, VPN gateways between the sites. We provision that, lay those down, configure the tunnels and then the traffic runs across the tunnels. The other cool thing we can do in this configuration is that if we need additional capacity, it's very easy to deploy additional V routers. These are all deployed using heat templates. So it's as easy as literally pushing a button and plugging it in. We're also running, again, the Brocade Viata SDN controller. And we're running three instances of a single logical cluster of the controller. The controller is Helium Open Daylight based. And you can see, I'll show you that running as well. That's used to control and manage and configure the V routers once they're laid down. And I think that's all we wanted to show on here. I mean, there's a couple of interesting things on here. I'm actually showing the actual addressing that we're using. The V routers are also fully configured using NetConf and the controllers are talking to the routers, the virtual routers using NetConf and obviously Yang. The UI also is using the ResConf interface that the controller is exposing. This is showing a little more detail. We actually are running tunnels within tunnels within tunnels so that this will work. It looks a little bit messy, but this is what you need to do to get this to work with the off-net case, the extra net case. We're showing full V6 connectivity between the sites. We're also demonstrating the Viata 5600 router in the example, which is going to be available in a couple of weeks. Using the images that we're showing here, so full NetConf capability. So how does this work? So I'm actually not going to step through all of the VM creation and whatnot, because this actually takes some time. If you're interested, we can do this at the booth, but we only had about 20 minutes here for the demo. So I'm going to go through some of the highlights. Basically, the way that we configure this, the VMs are running the Rokate image with public IP addresses, static IP addresses from Comcast. Those things are provisioned using OpenStack and laid down in the network. The controller then discovers those instances and then we use the controller to actually configure the tunnels on those routers. We have, again, those three sites, San Jose, Philadelphia and New Hampshire. And then I'll show you the Rokate UI that's used to actually talk to a couple of the sites. Let's see. I think we went through this already. Again, we're going to use RESTConf between the UI and the controller, NetConf between the controller and the routers. And again, we're going to provision the hosts using OpenStack. And I think, there we go. Yeah, this is just further going through the example, building the example up. And then, let me get to the last slide in here. Yeah, and the last slide here is actually showing, again, sort of the logical picture of what's going on. But further pointing out that we have three view routers running. We can easily add another site. These are just three Nova instances that are running. We could add a fourth one if we wanted to. And that's all you would need to provision additional instances somewhere else. And then the use case, of course, is again to transmit video or other traffic antenna. Excuse me. So let me bring up the demo here. Actually, let me show you a couple of slides. These are screenshots from the demo real quick. So again, the network topology is reflected. This is basically cloned at each of the sites. You'll see in the example, we have two VMs, which are just a bunch of VMs that are traffic generators. And inside of the network, we have our gateway router up here. We have the Brocade Viota controller instance. Actually, in this instance, we had two running here. We could basically have as many instances of the controller as we'd like running at the site. And then the VPN tunnels are running between these V routers and the other site. And that's how traffic is getting from where it needs to go to. That's just another figure of that. Let me grab the UI. So this is one of the first applications that we're coming out with when we release the controller in a couple of weeks. We'll be actually shipping this as a product in two weeks. And so we have two applications in here. One is called the Path Explorer, which I'll show you in a second. The other is the Viota EMS functionality. So we can see the controller will have discovered the three instances. Because this is a logical controller, it's feeding in the instances from each of the sites. And you can configure those from here. And we actually configured the tunnels using this interface. You can configure all of the parameters on the V router using this app. This is a tunnel visualization application. So this is the Path Explorer app. This is the second app that we have in here. So this is showing your Viota V routers with our tunnel that's running between these two sites. And here's another tunnel, the other tunnel that's running between these two sites with the NVMs and their stub networks hanging off of there. This is the Path Explorer app. Again, this is showing how we're actually configuring these paths and highlighting the paths that you just configured. Cool. So let's jump into the live demo. So this is, this VNC, excuse me, is of the live running network. So I'm SSH'd into, this is the Philadelphia site that I'm connected to. And you can see these are the live routers. These are the Ubuntu's that are running. If I want, I can open the console. So these guys are actually running. Let me jump in here. I've actually got some scripts that are running that are actively pinging. So these are running at each of the sites. So over here, excuse me, we're pinging from one site to the other. Over here. So this is 10, 0, 1, 7. This is net, this is pinging net 2. And this should be pinging net 107. Yep. So if we go over here, whoops, sorry about that. Here we go. So this is the site in New Hampshire that's connected over the high speed broadband access. So this is one of the guys. This is 10, 0, 2. This is the 10, 0, 2 site that I'm pinging in that ping. And what else? We can actually go to the router config over here, which I believe is running here. Yep. So this is the console for this V router over here that I'm talking to. So you can see the configuration over here. And I think that's all I wanted to show. You know, the point is that it's possible to integrate the two of these guys together. And it actually works, and it works pretty well. There's a couple of areas that we're going to be working on right now when the V routers are configured and are provisioned. Right now, the controller has to discover those using LLDP or a variety of other protocols. What we want to do is actually hack Neutron so that it works correctly. And I think there's some work going on about this right now in the L3 space. But right now, when things are provisioned through Neutron, they don't actually flow into the controller. And I think that was, oh, I wanted to show you also the live topology that's running in the controller. So this is the Path Explorer app that's running. And you can see the routers that we have here that were discovered in the previous one with their hosts on the ends. And then also the EMS that we have, let's see, in here. So this is one of the V routers. This is the V router that's at the New Hampshire site. And you can see the interfaces that are attached. This is the guy with the V6 address. And then we can also explore that guy with the Yang Explorer. This takes a little bit. Here we go. So let's go through that. Come on. Here we go. I'm going to get that from the, there we go. So we've retrieved that table from the VR using NetConf. And we're showing, we can display the info here as it came out. So this is pulled out using the RESTConf interface, which then talked to the device using NetConf at the bottom. If we want, we can actually modify these things, you know, the fields that are configurable. We can modify those. I think that's all I wanted to show. That was, you know, sort of demonstrating the Path Explorer and the EMS, as well as showing how you can do provisioning with OpenStack, and then configuration with Open Daylight. Thank you. Any questions? All right. Thanks a lot.


Welcome everybody to the second annual Highline College Docu-Race Championship where competitors go head-to-head racing to find specific documents on Highline's website. I am your studio host Patrick Fernandez here to provide commentary and really bad jokes on this year's competition. On the left-hand side we have last year's winner DeltaDog. DeltaDog, our mascot and trustworthy companion, and is our guide for the CTC Link project. And on the right-hand side we have our newest competitor to the Docu-Race series, Ace, the accreditation goat. Ace started off visiting our campus and instead of eating a report left on the ground, read it and is now dedicated to helping Highline understand accreditation. Today's target is to find the fabled MFR or Mission Fulfillment Report. Both competitors move straight into the address bar, great move by Ace with the proper spelling, but a problem with Delta's spelling going for Highline.edu with too many EEs having to take way too many times to get to Highline's website. Ace going for the search bar on the top right of the window, but somehow navigating to About Us. Delta has some time to catch up, looking through the top of the page going until, going up until landing on the magnifying glass. See who has moved while Ace, doubling back for some reason, to open the Highline webpage back through the address bar. Delta Dog, now on About Us, somehow confused, back in the address bar again with the misspelling of the website, this is pure madness. Ace, looking through the very informative COVID-19 site, reminding you to wash your hands with soap and water for at least 30 seconds. Delta, once again, eyeing over the top tabs of the main webpage before using the search button. Ace, now reading about the wonderful mobile COVID-19 testing that happens on campus. Delta, now searching through, searching for accreditation, which is a strong move, making her ever closer to the goal line. Looks like now sifting through documents. Ace, back on COVID-19 again, going into the search bar. Might need a miracle, looks so close yet so far. Really, it's searching for MFR in the search bar, there it is. Delta, was Delta texting Lisa? Oh my goodness. Delta, for the second annual Highline College Docu-Race Championships. Delta, looking to at least finish the race, but trouble as she puts in MRF, instead of the correct letters, I can't believe it. What a race. Delta, finally crossing the finish line. Looking at MFR, clicking. There we are, texting Lisa to make sure that she knows that they've found it. Congratulations Ace.


I welcome members to the 25th meeting in 2014 of the Delegated Powers and Law Reform Committee and asked members to switch off any mobile phones. We have apologies from Richard Baker in his place, I welcome Mary Fee. Agender item one is a decision on taking business in private. It is proposed that committee takes item six in private. Item six is consideration of committee's approach to the delegated powers in the community empowerment Scotland Bill at stage one. Does the committee agree to take that in private, please? We do, thank you very much. Agender item two is the Legal Writing, Counterparts and Delivery Scotland Bill. This item is oral evidence on the Legal Writing, Counterparts and Scotland Bill. Today's session allows us to take evidence from the Law Society of England and Wales, who along with the City of London Law Society are responsible for the practice note outlining the modern English law on execution in counterpart, which informed the bill. Joining us via video conferences, Warren Gordon, Member of the Law Society of England and Wales, Convincing and Law Committee and the Head of Real Estate Know-how at Oldsland, LLP. Can I welcome Mr Gordon again and invite him to make an opening statement, please, sir? Yes, but thank you very much for giving me the opportunity to speak today. As you say, my name is Warren Gordon. I'm Head of Real Estate Know-how at Oldsland LLP. We're a law firm in London and with other offices in England and around the world. I'm also a Member of the Law Society's Convincing and Land Law Committee and will become chair of that committee from September. As a Member of the Convincing Committee, I have saw that some involvement in the production of the Law Society's practice note in February 2010 on execution of documents by virtual means. My specialism is in the real estate area and my experience of execution of documents, virtual silence and counterparts is in that context, although I'm happy to comment on this application in other areas. Many thanks again to the committee for giving me the opportunity to provide some information to you about how the mission experience is, which hopefully will be of use to you as you formulate your legislation. Without further ado, perhaps we can take questions. Indeed, thank you for that introduction. We'll go slightly slowly because our cameras need to be able to move. I'd like the first question to come from Margaret McCulloch, please. Thank you. Good morning, Mr Gordon. My question is on the background to the English law of counterparts. I wonder if you can explain to us the extent to which counterparts are used in commercial settings in England and the role which law firms play in the process. Thank you very much for that question. So, a doctorate of counterparts in English law has got a couple of meanings which I will explain in my answer. The first one relates to deeds and counterparts in our interpretation are deeds executed as duplicates or identical. So when a deed is executed in duplicates, all the parts are regarded as one deed, so you might accept it as one deed, and each part is equally affected. I'm talking here about written documents, as opposed to virtual electronic and sign documents, which I'll talk about in a short while. And the concept of the original deed and the counterpart duplicates constitute one deed and each part being equally affected. That legally is a part of the individual counterpart's relationship to written documents, certainly in a real estate property context, which is what I'm most familiar with. So the biggest example of that would be something like a lease, where the two parts of the lease, the part executed by the land and the part executed by the tenant, are identifiable. The part of the land of execution is called the original or the principle deed, and the part executed by the tenant and the guarantor is called the counterpart. And the counterpart does not have to be signed by all of the parties to be valid. It doesn't have to be signed by the tenant and any guarantor of the tenant. The land is signed as a separate part for the original. And as this is the original deed, which is usually the part executed by the party doing the disposal, so I'm guessing this would be a similar way in the proper context, but the party is actually selling the property or letting the property, the one who's carrying out a disposition before the individual term. That is always going to be the original document, and that would be the document that, for example, in the land registry context, is sent to the land registry and registered there. If the land registry is registered in this position, and it's the original document in this position, so that's what it's doing. In terms of the counterpart, the land registry doesn't need to be the counterpart. What the counterpart is doing there is it's essentially evidence of the tenant executing the document, and then that would use that counterpart if it wanted to sue the tenant, if we need to have that document to go to court and bring it to proceedings. So the counterpart doesn't have a role, but ultimately the original prevails over the counterpart. If they're not identical in that period, it should be added to court, but sometimes maybe the WP systems don't work properly in their tidy effort, and in that scenario, the part executed by the land would prevail as the original over the counterpart. But if it's not when you've had, perhaps in one scenario, the original counterpart, the counterpart could have been used as evidence of the document existing. Now what are the issues that the committee is using? Is one of the advantages of having an original counterpart? That there's a third, I come on to a separate concept of counterpart's generally emotional experiences, which also happens as a part of a similar conversation, but in an absolute real space context, keep it fairly obvious that if the counterpart is executing separate identities of parts, it's much quicker. There's a much quicker speed of execution, and that has to improve the efficiency of the transaction. If you have to get all of the parties of land that tend to gather at all to execute both parts of the document, it would slow up the transaction, particularly if it's part where you're talking about parties that are based over cities, and it might be much more difficult, much more time consuming, especially if you're able to file out a signature of the collect to get those documents executed. So if the original counterpart, in a real space context that's related to cities, is a much more effective way of executing documents, it has to be said that sometimes people like all of the parts of the execute in different parts, just to make the approval for, but usually in a property context that doesn't happen. So that's a property, but then broadening out a bit through the kind of concept of counterpart, which I think is more particular to virtual signings, and to your bill, commercial agreements. So in commercial agreements we often have what are called counterpart visions as a clause of the document related to counterparts, and it is quite similar to what I've just been talking about, although it's slightly different as you'll see. We don't have a concept of original counterpart in that context. It's a concept of counterparts, but similar to what I was saying previously, it still means that those counterparts are identical parts of the document. They're exactly the same, but they are signed, each one is signed by a different party. So you don't have all of the parties signed in one document. It has the same effect as if all of the signatures on the counterparts have been on one document. So with all the parts physically assigned to that document, legally you're treating together as one document. Each counterpart is an original, which can be taken or sued upon. All of the counterpart together, similar to an original counterpart, constitutes one document. Now, what I think is statistically relevant to the concept of virtual signing as dealt with in the Law of Practice note, so in relation to your bill, is again highlighting the efficiency of each party being able to do their own electronic and virtual signing once all of those have been done that can constitute together one document. So that flexibility of each party signing by themselves, without everybody having to sign one document, provides a lot greater flexibility which can be utilised in an electronic virtual signing context. So that is the benefits. Do you have any questions on that at this stage because my next comments relate to your question too? Forgive me, I'm just, Stuart Stevenson had an observation please. Thank you very much, convener. I've listened carefully to what's said and I hopefully am understanding that. In particular, I'm looking to submission the committees received from the Faculty of Advocates. The one thing I didn't hear in your contribution, Mr Gordon, and of course it may be the difference between English and Scottish law that accounts for my not hearing it. That was the delivery of documents which is part of our legislation. It seemed to me that you were suggesting that particularly in relation to property there was not necessarily a delivery to the primary signer. I'm using that as my term because you clearly made a differentiation between the status of the two versions of the document signed one in counterparty and one otherwise. Is the junior document, my phrase, actually delivered so there is an opportunity for the two and confirm that they are identical because you did make mention of any difficulties that would arise worthy to be different. Is there a delivery process in what you do? There is a concept of delivery, but as I understand it and I'm not an expert on Scott's law, one way of delivery in Scott's law is to physically deliver the documents. Is that right? There is a parolary of what we do, but in practice what happens is one firm of solicitors produces both documents and then gets the parties to execute and ultimately one party ends up with each part of the document and so in terms of them comparing it the solicitors will check that they are the same, but the physical delivery of it isn't integral to the legal effect. Concept of delivery in English law as I will come onto on virtual signings is a document under English law. The delivery in our interpretation is that at that point in time they are legally bound by virtue of the fact that they have signed the document unless the parties agree otherwise and normally we agree otherwise. Normally we don't want a party to be bound merely at the point of execution we say that they will only be bound when the document is dated and the dating will take place after the respective parties have executed. The parties isn't relevant to English law but we do have a concept of delivery whereby if a party signs they will be bound unless the solicitors and the parties agree otherwise then it will normally be at the date the document is dated. Do forgive me, I just want to try and be as clear as a lay person can be. The concept of dating in relation to this the legal effect of the two signed copies only starts when the documents are dated. Now could you describe how dating happens who's party to dating and have there been any cases where the absence of dating or questions around dating have led to difficulties in your jurisdiction the way you do things? What happens is the parties execute the documents and they don't want to be legally bound until it is dated so the documents will be undated and what will normally happen in my experience of transactions is the respective solicitors will usually speak on the phone and they will agree at a particular point in the day at a specific time and a date that the document will be dated at that point in time and from that date from that time the parties will be legally bound. So with contracts which are not under deed again they are executed because there's no concept of delivery in the concept of non-deeds the parties aren't necessarily bound at the point they sign it then goes to the solicitors and the solicitors at that point use a law society formula to exchange the contracts and there are various elements of that and again being specific when it is dated it is from then that the parties are bound. The comparison is with a deed where there is the danger as I say that a party can be bound merely by virtue of the fact that they've signed the document even if it has not been dated at that point. Now of course that could create quite a lot of uncertainty and for that reason and I'm not saying every document like this but any well-drafted document will have a specific statement that says delivery as we understand it takes place on the date of this deed therefore the fact that the parties have signed the document does not mean that they are bound at that point because what can happen sometimes is a party may sign something and then they may have second thoughts they don't want to proceed so they don't want to or even they might sign something and there might be a three month gap till it's completed so they sign it but they're not legally bound until it's dated and dating all that means is there's a gap in the front page that says you put the date in and the solicitors agree this is the date we're going to complete so where we use complete this deed once it's dated from that moment the parties are legally bound there is a contract implicit or explicit between the signatories and the lawyer who is acting on their behalf because it is the lawyer who is giving effect to the dating correct correct and the lawyer is in effect acting as the agent of the client to bring effect to the legal completion and the dating sorry to be so pernickety but I'm kind of known for it so you have a if I understood you correctly this is a third lawyer who has a responsibility to both sets of parties to the contract is that my understanding no no no no no no so basically each party I mean some parties will sometimes not have a lawyer representing them in which case we'd advise them to get independent legal advice but normally in commercial transactions each party has its own lawyer and the lawyers between themselves no third lawyer involved just the lawyers to the parties between themselves work out the arrangements for exchange if it's a contract or for completion if it's a D being completed and they agree between themselves no other party involved how and when it's going to be dated thank you thank you I can see the advantage of having the opportunity for businesses to actually be able to sign the documents if they live and work in different parts of the country or internationally is there any other advantages for companies to actually go down this route I would say at the moment there's probably a little bit of reluctance and caution on the part of people to actually go down the electronic route I'll come on to the land registry's change of practice and meaning that possibly we can do deeds by virtual signings but people I think still feel slightly uncomfortable with doing transactions virtually and I make that point really to say that the advantage that I highlighted is probably one of the main things that we think of at the moment in relation to doing virtual signings in terms of the concept of different parties executing different parts of the documents that is something that we in English law have been familiar with for decades if not hundreds of years so it's not something that we really think of as an advantage but it is I have to say in practice a bit of a hassle where you can't use take advantage of the part arrangement and you have to have get maybe sometimes on our large commercial transactions five or six parties executing the same document it is a total nightmare because people aren't around when you need them to be and knowing the way the typical commercial transactions go they've got to be done yesterday and it is a real disadvantage so I stress for me that is the main advantage I can't think of any other particularly obvious advantage of separate execution by counterpart original but it is an advantage that is well merited and I think hopefully the benefit of that can be seen in virtual signings and lastly any practical difficulties with English law of counterparts and have you identified any areas where improvements could actually be made well so this is I think coming on to your second question isn't it the main disadvantage I think is the actually arguably a corollary of the main benefit is its own part of the document if that part is lost and these things do happen documents get lost it can cause problems if it was necessary to use that part for example to bring proceedings in court clearly if all the parties had executed each part of the lease that wouldn't be a problem because you could then get a certified copy of the document showing both parties having it executed for the other party having said all of that in terms of it is it a disadvantage it is quite rare that parties lose their documents it does happen but I would say that the rarity of that occurrence doesn't make it a significant enough disadvantage to outweigh the benefits of the efficiencies of having separate execution another disadvantage would be and we picked up on this already is if the documents are not in identical form now in the olden days before my time where people used to sort of manuscript scribe these documents together one could see that as potentially a disadvantage but with modern technology and IT processing even with people having different versions of documents it would be pretty negligent on the part of the solicitor producing the counterpart in original all the counterpart documents for them not to be in identical form and actually there's an argument even to say that let's say you had counterparts where you were getting all the parties to execute each part but let's say the two parts themselves or you executed getting three parties execute each part stands to reason you have three documents because you want each party to have one copy let's say when they came to the IT processing that the three parts were not identical between themselves so even if you're executing of all parties executing each part you've always got the danger that if you've got more than one copy of that document that the documents could be different between themselves so the concern about not being an identical form is I put forward simply because you've asked me for disadvantages of it although in practice with IT it shouldn't be an issue because what you're doing is you're literally pushing the print button so you have two copies of that please it's not like you're having to go through a different process to create the second version of it so if one is concerned about that one will be concerned about knocking out more than one copy of any document when you push the print button as I say I think these are disadvantages but they are so minor and they are outweighed by the greater efficiencies we have by executing separately thank you very much thank you very much on that and that takes respect to Stuart Stevenson who I think perhaps has a point on that before he moves on yes I just wanted to ask whether consideration being given to the use of electronic signatures that relate to the document in other words validate that the document is a particular version and that therefore allowed quite quick comparison of electronic signatures rather than having to dot by dot cross T by cross T compare the detail okay I'm not aware of that certainly in a real estate context and personally I think it's probably unnecessary we have throughout a lot of the documents negotiated online you have different versions when a version is agreed and it's ready to push the button to engross that document then clearly the solicitors for each party should be looking at the final version should be circulated to the respective solicitors and the solicitor then comes back and says I'm happy with that document the lawyer who is producing one of the lawyers will produce the final form of the document will physically or email the document to the other side any lawyer doing their job properly will then check the document what they I mean we I use the tool here in the office called PDF comparison which can do it's a technical device which shows any differences between the two I agree with you that effectively locking down the agreement by an electronic signature it's funny we're going to come onto that course on later questions but in terms of this context yes it probably would be a more effective way to do it but it's I'm guessing will probably be more administrative probably more costly you'd have to have the solicitors liaising between themselves will there be any incompatibility in the technology between the respective solicitors and I think my answer to your question is I think that the technology that we have at the moment gives sufficient protection to solicitors and their clients bearing in mind the cost pressures on transactions what clients are prepared to pay in the real world what firms are prepared to spend what they can afford to spend they're going to do things that they need to do and if the technology here is sufficient to protect them to a reasonable degree then I think people will perceive that to be enough right I'm available on consultancy at about a thousand a day so there we are anyway anyway let me just move on to the mercury case and the law society's practice note which your introductory remarks indicated you were party to and I just wonder if you could tell us to what extent you're satisfied that the practice note addressed the issues that was raised by the mercury versus HMRT case I think that I mean this was a case from 2008 that I'm sure the committee is aware of it was a case as often happens with these kind of cases it was very specific to its particular facts and in that sense you could say well it wasn't that significant but it was important because it highlighted areas that perhaps the profession had been focused on closely enough in relation to pre-sign signature pages and also practice of contracts being exchanged by signature pages being exchanged by email so particularly in a commercial context and actually to a degree in residential context with increasing numbers of overseas purchases we have lots of people who are abroad who we act for and it is too fiddly to send an overnighter to somebody to get it signed with wet ink and then send it back and lawyers have always been attempting to come up with their own solutions as to how they can go about trying to effect an exchange legally that were properly buying the parties and there was great uncertainty really about how they go about doing this and whether the clients would be properly protected in that situation so the mercury case was not of great relevance to what practitioners do but it highlighted that there was an issue that the law society needed to address in its guidance and it wasn't only as you say the law society it was also the city of London law society that was involved arguably particularly that society because a lot of its clients involved transactions overseas so we have this guidance which was in the practice notes and my particular interest obviously was in relation to real estate documents and deeds and what the law society came up with were three options and you're probably right it's the committee fully OFA with the contents of that practice note or shall I reiterate the key points on the three options we may know as much as we need to but if you can briefly just point to a few bullet points I would be better informed so just a couple of introductory points as I say virtual signings mainly occur in a property context in relation to real estate contracts so in English law we have a contract which is usually a contract which is the agreement to sell the land usually there will be the disposition the actual transfer of the legal interest virtual signings normally occur in a real estate context in relation to contracts to sell so it will be at that point where the parties are initially bound to transfer the property at a later date and the urgency usually arises where the clients want to get the contractual commitment the legal transfer itself will happen later but the urgency is getting that contractual commitment and that's why they need to do an electronic signing so it's normally property sale contracts so up to recently the dispositions themselves the transfer of the legal interest we would never do by virtual signings and the key reason for that was these dispositions had to be registered at the English land registry and the English land registry up to about two months ago required wet ink signatures so they wouldn't be happy with a PDF copy they needed a wet ink signature however from the 30th of June the land registry has changed its practice now and it no longer wants to see original documents unless it's a first registration situation so for the vast majority of property transfers the land registry does not need to see the original document now I don't know what the practice of the land registry of Scotland is but it's quite an interesting practice and actually what's very interesting about it is it opens up virtual signings to a much wider group of documents because now it not only includes the contracts but it also includes the transfers the leases and any other disposals why this is all relevant to the options is of course it means that these options can be much more widely used and it's very helpful for practitioners to have the guidance so in terms of the options number three the strictest option which is option one relates to deeds because deeds have the greatest technical requirements under the law property miscellaneous provisions at 1989 in England and also real estate contracts which again have technical requirements documents like guarantees and simple contracts have less strict requirements and options two and three deal with that and I'll come on to those in a short while now each option contains a series of steps that need to be taken by the clients the parties and by their solicitors I'm not going to go through all of the steps for all three options you'll be delighted to know but what I will do is I'll go through the main options for the main steps for option one and then highlight to you the two or three small changes for options two and three so with option one which I remind you is for deeds and real estate contracts so any document is a deed and I think in your context most of the documents you seem to be talking about are deeds the parties solicitors have to agree the arrangements which is what you would expect for the virtual signing what then happens is the document is agreed to be finalised between the parties and the person who is controlling the production of documents in the same way that if it was a paper completion as I mentioned a solicitor will produce physically the paper documents so in this scenario that same solicitor will email to the parties overseas the final version of the document as we discussed not PKI or digital signature protected but still the final version of the document the parties have agreed and separately a signature page and this is emailed to parties overseas or to parties who cannot get around to being able to give a wedding signature the reason why we have a separate signature page is let's say you've got a client lying on a beach in south of France and you've got a 500 page document and a one page signature page and in theory you might say well this person has to have a good printer to print out his 500 page document and signature page sign it all and then scan it all back we think in practice that often clients are not going to want to print out lengthy documents but all we're requiring to do is to print out the signature page to then sign with a wedding signature the signature page they then need to have a handy scan somewhere near them on to the system and they then email back to the solicitor the scanned signature page plus that final version of the document now immediately you can see perhaps a slight waterness because it's depending on the client attaching the right document let's say for example they managed to scan on correctly the signed page but then they go to the wrong email and attach a previous version of the document so the solicitor controlling the whole arrangement receives back from one party the scanned signature but version 4 of the document the other party has done it correctly sends back the scanned signature of version 5 you've got a problem haven't you because if you've got documents in a different form you won't have a contract you won't have a legally binding document so somebody somewhere has got to make sure that those documents match brings back to your point to what extent could we have some kind of certification to make the process more foolproof but the danger is you are depending on a layperson client to get it right in terms of doing what they have to do printing out the page, signing it scanning it together with the document they were sent by the solicitor from a technical perspective even for people who are not into IT but you can still see that there's a potential issue that if they mess it up and send the wrong version of the document back with the scanned signature page you could have a problem in terms of achieving legal effect unless that's picked up by one of the solicitors. Let me just develop a little point from that you clearly are discussing the legal link between the signed page presigned in some cases and the document how is that legal link created because it sounded to a layperson a little haphazard potentially and has that been tested by any case law thus far? So what we did following Mercury was as I said we had to produce some guidance and we were concerned about the legal links as you say about how does this stack up in terms of English law I'm not aware of there being any recent cases testing this, testing whether a virtually signed document in this format works as a matter of English law what we did at the time City of London Law Society and the Law Society was what we do whenever we've got a very difficult legal point and it's a very novel is we go to very senior council so we went to a chap called Mark Hapgood who gave a very big opinion on that and we through the City of London Law Society real estate committee were concerned about the specific technical issues for real estate documents and deeds so we went to our own couple of council very senior council one of whom actually I think co-wrote the Land Registration Act 2002 so he's fairly knowledgeable and we got from them about 80 pages on whether or not this works and what we wanted them to say to us was does the way in which it's executed by this email arrangement is this consistent with the legislation for execution of documents in a manual context so what they had to do was look at the legislation and say well can we actually interpret that legislation as encompassing executions by virtual signings and the clear response we got from our real estate council and also from this Mark Hapgood QC was that yes a virtual signing using the step set out in the Law Society formula would equate to a manual signature in accordance with the legislation as I say that has not as far as I'm aware been tested in the English courts so I cannot give you a definitive answer that it absolutely 100% works but we were very careful because we knew the professional wanted guidance on this to get some very detailed opinions from people which gave us the assurance to put out this guidance note which we felt would at least give practitioners and their clients greater comfort that doing these virtual signings had some legal basis though as I say there is no case law that says 100% yes it works Do forgive me and I may regret asking this question clearly we're talking here about the communication method being electronic I just kind of go back to when it was all paper and wet ink the page upon which the signature is which is part of the contract how was it possible in that circumstance to know that that page related to the contract if for the sake of argument is sitting here I have a loose leaf binder where I could take an individual page out and put another one in was there no process of initialing all the pages which were being authorised by the full signature page so that you would actually have the link when it was paper and therefore is there a an issue there? It's an excellent point and call me naive and call most of my fellow practitioners naive but I think we assumed that once the document had been physically bound had a binder on the side that I mean I've always known and always been brought up in practice that once the document has been we call it engrossed physically bound that you must never unbind it and that I think probably gave you the reassurance because what would happen would be the solicitor would physically engrossed the document send it to the other party solicitor the other party solicitor would check it they would then send it to their client bound so it would all be bound so the signature page would be bound in at the end the client would physically sign it and they would then return the bound document to the solicitor the solicitor would then have the bound document so yes I agree that it is possible that the client could decide to unbind the document to take out a few pages put a few more in mess it around doesn't tend to happen that way I mean people generally if they're law abiding citizens are probably not going to go into that process and they'd have no reason to start interfering with the document because the client will be relying on the solicitor to have got the document right and what I'm saying is I think that that scenario was probably a little bit more foolproof a little bit more foolproof than the issues I've potentially raised which I appreciate were not brought out necessarily in the law society practice note but it occurs to me as we're speaking that it's perhaps a bit more foolproof than a virtual signing scenario where there is the danger because you are depending on the client to actually send back to you the right part and if he's got a number of emails in his system and he accidentally just happens to attach the wrong document one could see it happening and I think that's more likely to be of an issue than somebody unbinding a physical document so we knew it was the same with physical documents it was bound into one document so in moving to the electronic world we are seeking to replicate that physical relationship which requires a positive action to disrupt that existed into the electronic world but as yet there's been no legal challenge I think probably we've done that to death and I know colleagues of other questions convener thank you very much could I then move on to John Scott please good morning Mr Gordon and what are if I may ask that law society's general views on the bill and it's likely impact on businesses operating in Scotland in a positive position of Scottish law firms unfortunately I'm not an expert in Scots law so I wouldn't have the arrogance to think that I could tell you about that but there is one aspect actually that I think is worth making in an analogy to the English law context and the virtual signing scenarios that I talked about so looking at the option one that we discussed just now the English legal view is if you look at the solicitor a signed page by the client together with the document the views we've got from council the position that we adopt is that counts as a legally effective and binding virtual signature and as discussed in relation to delivery unless you make it clear that delivery takes place other than at the data signature it will take place on the date that the signature page and the document is emailed to the solicitor so with delivery in our context you need to make it clear that even though you've sent through your virtual signature the document doesn't actually have legal effect until the date of the document in the context of your bill I think the analogy is as I understand it you talk about a copy of a signed traditional document being transmitted by electronic means such as emails I think that's the heart of your bill as I understand it from the stuff I've seen and to my mind that does seem to me to be quite similar to option one as we discussed where the client has signed the page, they're sending the page and they're sending the document by email we have council's opinions and we produce a note that says if you follow the relevant option steps the party is legally bound by that virtual signature unless you say it's going to be on the date of the document but for your purposes you're legally bound by that virtual signature and to me that is an analogy to your bill's proposals to a copy of a signed traditional document being transmitted by email and it having binding legal effect so as I say I can't comment on the Scots law element because I'm not a Scottish lawyer and I'm sure I'll say the wrong thing but in terms of the analogy to English law I do see an analogy between the heart of your proposal and what we have in relation to option one and in relation to that question do you see any competitive advantage accruing to Scottish law firms as a result of this bill I certainly believe that the Scottish legal firms believe this to be the case but I'd be interested to hear of your opinion on that I think that if the consequence of this is that Scottish law firms do a lot more virtual signings then they may perceive that they're doing their executions in a very efficient fashion and if they're doing more of these executions in English firms they're doing virtual signings and then perhaps they may perceive that to be a competitive advantage but as I said I think the way things are going now with the land registry saying they don't require wetting signatures and the way that so many transactions are so to overseas based quite often cosmopolitan I think there's a great chance that a lot more virtual signings are going to take place in the English jurisdiction so if that is the advantage that they're doing more virtual signings than us I think ultimately it will balance itself out Thank you very much Can I just ask you whether the law society has any comments on the fact that the bill does not require parties to include an express counterparts clause in contrast to the normal position in England Okay so in relation to my experience of real estate documents we don't have counterparts provisions in our documents we simply say the part executed by the land is the original and the part executed by the tenant is the counterpart and you don't need to say it's the county you don't need to have a four or five line clause in your document that says that it's a counterpart it's just called a counterpart Usually in commercial agreements you do have a four or five line counterpart provision basically saying that each party counts as the original and they're in identical form but as I understand it's a matter of law English law you do not need to have a counterpart clause in a commercial agreement provided clearly the documents are in identical form Thank you that's very clear and finally whether the law society has any other comments on relevant differences between the English law and counterparts and their approach envisaged in the Scottish bill I personally have no comments in that regard my only comment and great interest is the concept of being able to have legal effect to a document merely by physically delivering it which is something that we don't really have a concept of in English law and does highlight the great and interesting differences between our jurisdictions but I have nothing further to add on that question Thanks very much Thank you John, I think Margaret McCulloch would like to come back Can I go back to the signature page where all parties actually sign and you says it could be sent to them electronically for them to sign print out, scan and send back to you Can you confirm that page, does it have a header or footer tying that page into the actual document that they're agreeing to sign or is it a blank page No, it won't be a blank page I can't confirm every document I've ever seen it's got page numbers because some don't but usually it will be if the final page of the main part of the document is page 56 page 57 and it will literally have on it the footer will just be the document number so that again I suppose ties it into the rest of the document there will be no header, you'll simply have the execution clause the wording signed as a D by the presence of that you have those words which will then be the words that enables the client to sign in the relevant place but the only things to tie it into the rest of the document will be a page number at the bottom and the same document number I agree that that is probably not quite as crystal clear as you might want it to be, you know you might say well it would be really good if we had something on there saying this is a signature page for the documents to which it relates, I agree that would be clearer the way that we do it at the moment I would suspect is not as clear as that So is there any reason why that hasn't been done that is implemented, would it make the document more secure as that signature is tied to that particular document and can't be used for anything else? It hasn't been done because I don't think people perceive it to be a concern I think if people have got lawyers acting for them they trust their lawyers to get it right you know clearly there's a fraud going on different scenario but that rarely happens in most normal scenarios the party would have their solicitors acting for them and they would trust their solicitors to get it right in terms of the answer to your question I believe having the words at the top probably would make it more secure but actually does it make it, what situations are we concerned about I mean one of the key concerns we have not really touched upon with virtual signings is the possibility that it makes fraud more likely and if fraud is going to be perpetrated the fact that you put two lines at the top of the page saying this is the document to which it relates isn't necessarily going to stop a fraud being perpetrated because somebody can just manipulate the legislation to suit their own nefarious purposes so I think that people trust the system I'm not sure that my suggestion about having the lines at the top of the page would take off in our jurisdiction people would just think it's fiddly there's no, that is actually the first suggestion I've heard made about that idea I've not heard it made in the English jurisdiction from your perspective starting afresh looking at our new yeah why not it's a good idea yes it won't stop a fraud but it does tie the signature page better into the rest of the document so it is a good suggestion I think okay thank you very much right thank you if I can bring in Stuart McMillan please hi there good morning Mr Gordon just following on from your comments a moment ago how prevalent actually has fraud been with this particular practice that's taking place in England and Wales essentially I mean I've not been provided with any statistics by the law side to anybody else as to the regularity of fraud here it is a new practice and I suppose the problem is that if frauds were taking place publicly one wouldn't necessarily get to hear of it and I almost answer by saying that although these types of signatures have been going on for some time it probably is too early doors to say how prevalent fraud is it's not been highlighted in the press as an issue although it's a concern it's a concern because of some of the fact that anything done electronically we just see in the press every day there's a greater chance of hacking there's a greater chance of fraud in that context because personally call me a ladaid but when I've got a physical document it still feels like it gives you more security like when we used to have land certificates it gives you more security than just relying on somebody will amend the register and there's nothing to prove it so I'm still a believer that possibly physical documents give you that greater degree of security so in that sense there is a greater chance of fraud but I don't at the moment have the status to show that fraud is happening more often in relation to virtual signings than it is in relation to manual ones have there been many reports in the media in terms of fraud cases? In this area I've not heard of any in relation to virtual signings but as I say that doesn't mean there haven't been any but none has been reported and I suppose if there was such a scenario then it would presumably have the police involved and there may be I don't know if those kind of cases may not even be published for a time because of the investigations that are going on so the practice now has been out for a time now I think what will be particularly interesting is the fact that now the land registry will accept certified copy documents remember that at the end of the day virtual signings in relation to sale contracts are probably less of an issue than they are in relation to the actual transfers of the properties that's where the fraudsters would really be interested and it's only from the 30th of June of this year that the land registry has said we can have certified copy signatures which lays open the possibility of having virtually signed leases or transfers effectively being sent to the land registry now if a fraud was going to take place in that context it is quite early because it literally was only seven weeks ago that this went live it's probably too early to judge if it was going to happen but it certainly will be interesting over the next year or so to see whether we get more of these cases coming out in the press and that really will highlight if there are serious pitfalls with the virtual signing process particularly where it relates to dispositions of land OK, thank you very much Thank you very much indeed for that We return to Stevenson on the particular issue of electronic signatures Yes, I just had put back in my mind a gentleman called George Scoville who 200 years ago broke Napoleon's Legrand Schiff and thus led the groundwork for his ultimately defeat at Waterloo so maybe the lawyers are quite correct to stay away from anything electronic requiring encryption and encoding but I just want caution indeed what worked 200 years ago might still be a danger today The bottom line is really interested to know what plans of work is currently being undertaken by the law society or other people in the English legal system to promote the use of electronic signatures to create an infrastructure that would allow it to more simply, cheaply and easily be introduced As far as I'm aware the law society themselves are not actually at the moment involved in the promotion of true digital signatures it is something that we have looked at at length over the years and many firms have written about the subject matter Probably for my mind the best iteration of digital signatures actually came from the land registry's earlier iterations of e-convancing and on that subject I was doing a bit of research last night because I thought you might ask this and I actually found quite an interesting article in Computer Weekly from 2008 which looked at the role of public key infrastructure systems in guaranteeing the authenticity of property transaction documents If you go online and look at Computer Weekly 2008 you'll find it there I noticed there was also some land registry documents from that time setting out some of their technical parameters in relation to PKI In a nutshell what this involved if the land registry's proposals had gone ahead which ultimately they didn't was that authorised parties would be able to exchange information quickly between each other and the land registry and what would happen there is that there would be an encryption of the documents and they would be signed with a digital certificate I think this is probably what you have perhaps in mind and for people to get into those documents they would need a secure token and you need a username and a password to produce and read the documents The original plan of the land registry was for up to 300,000 documents a day to be affected this way and that up to half a million security certificates would be supported and ultimately in that arrangement the land registry would be managing a central authority that issued the certificates that enabled parties to sign electronically the documents such as transfers and mortgages The law firms themselves under that arrangement would appoint particular administrators to ensure that the people at their end are acting in a secure fashion and properly utilising these certificates and there will be security to enable access As I say, the system never saw the light of day in any convincing context but if you haven't spoken to them already it might be worth the committee speaking to the land registry of England and Wales so that you can maybe speak to them about their experiences and as I say, if you don't want to do that I did notice if you do a search on PKI there was a land registry there was a 10 page document which talked about some of their technical aspects of their project which may be of interest In terms of English legislation we have the Electronic Communications Act of 2000 and that's actually quite a wide-ranging bitter legislation in relation to electronic signatures because it makes all electronic signatures whether they're simple ones or advanced ones and I'll come on to the difference in a short while all of those signatures would be admissible in UK legal proceedings but in terms of the evidential weight that is carried by that signature it does depend on whether or not it's simple or advanced so simple is something like a simple typed signature at the end of an email which frankly doesn't carry much evidential weight because it's not very secure The more advanced signatures that are talked about are those that are certified by some kind of certification authority more akin to the kind of land registry PKI protected signatures that I was just talking about and the other problem of electronic signatures is although we have an umbrella act in the Electronic Communications Act of 2000 it's not entirely clear that every other bit of English legislation enables that act to be used to effect electronic signatures in that context as I say in relation to the property legislation we specifically went to council to get their views on virtual signings but in terms certainly of an application of PKI infrastructure or equivalent to signatures under English law one couldn't definitively say that every English bit of legislation allowed for that and that was simply perhaps due to the not complete incorporation of the 2000 act into other bits of legislation It's very interesting I'll just close with an observation that the banks and the chat system have been using this technology since 1982 so there is a bit of evidence that it actually works I happen to be the project manager for the project so I know something about it but I think that's helpful, thank you Thank you very much indeed It does occur to me Mr Gordon that we might be looking at a situation where there's a need for some internationally agreed protocol on these things the route that we're going down doesn't seem to be reversible Is there any indication that that's happening from where you're sitting? From where I'm sitting in a real estate context no but that doesn't mean it won't happen in the future and particularly with the transatlantic cosmopolitan nature of transactions it would not surprise me if that does happen in the future but that is not an aspect that I specifically have been involved in I'm not aware that the law society has had any discussions with law societies from other jurisdictions in that regard but I agree with you that I think that that is an important step going forward Thank you very much indeed We now move on to electronic document repositories and I go back to Stuart McMillan Thank you Mr Gordon, what are your thoughts and the benefits that a dedicated electronic document repository can bring to the system envisaged by the SLC report? Can you just be clear as to what you mean by electronic document repositories in that context? The Scottish Law Commission in their report suggested that a repository was recommended and this was in page 63 of the report but it's not been dealt with in the bill so just to have some type of facility where all the electronic signatures all the electronic documents could actually be collected So we have in the property context and it's usually finished documents completed documents, we have extra nets so an extra net is what I would define as an electronic document repository because what we do is we put all our electronic documents in one place we usually do it for clients and it's used on transactions and the ease of it of course is moving into the virtual world we don't want to be sending the other parties on transactions a whole ton of paper documents so people access those documents in one place In terms of a wider application there have been discussions I think and I'm not sure how progress they've been possibly even involving the land registry about the extent to which they could take on board holding a series of different documents in context but I'm not sure how it's proceeded at all I mean ultimately I suppose people are seeking to improve the efficiency of property transactions in our jurisdiction, I'm sure in other jurisdictions and having ease of access to all relevant documents in an electronic context in one electronic document repository would be very helpful to all the parties In terms of how far progress that has got in a sort of public sector context with agencies I don't think that's progressed at all but we do use it as I say in a private context in terms of the way that we transact and the way that we hold documents and that is a big thing for law firms particularly at the larger end where there are often big properties lots of documents and you want to make it as easy as possible for people to access them so used in a private context not used so much in a public one Okay now certainly in Scotland the Scottish Parliament passed legislation only two or three years ago to improve the efficiency of that particular organisation and to bring it more into the electronic age as compared to the system that was there beforehand so that certainly has been from the SLC perspective the proposal to have them as the main body to collect these documents at the end I'm sure that it may well be that it goes live Has it gone live already Yes So I'm sure if the Lamborship of England chose to go down that route there would be some interesting conversations Okay, thank you very much Right, I'm grateful to you Mr Gordon I think that probably concludes our questions I'm just wondering whether you feel there's anything we've missed seems unlikely we've been at it for an hour but is there any point that we've inadvertently missed police The only point actually that we didn't cover was just the options two and three on the Law Society practice note which is in the context of documents that are not real estate contracts or deeds and certainly options two and three take a more adventurous approach to the execution of documents with in fact an option three a presigned signature page so what happens is you get the client to sign a separate page to then go away and agree the document and then attach the page to the finished version of the document Speaking as a real estate lawyer that's not something that feels me with great comfort and if I was a client I wouldn't be filled with great comfort either because I like to look at what I'm signing to be honest so although option three caters of that scenario it would not be one that I would be recommending to people because I think it's a very dicey way of going about executing documents where you sign a page up front I'm not sure how many members of the committee would be happy doing that but I don't think I would be but apart from that I think we've gone through all the points Indeed that seems to be where the law of agency and the law of trust actually bump into each other in commercial nonsense when we'd suggest Stuart Stevenson wants to come back Well I just wanted very simply to ask whether there is a a legal connection between the release of that presigned signature page in other words the process of attaching it to the document is there a defined process around that that involves the person who provided that signature perhaps many months earlier What would happen is that the solicitors would be authorised to attach the document and I was kind of overstating in a way the adventurous of it but it's still adventurous but what actually happens is that when the final document is agreed it's transmitted electronically to the party who signed it at the beginning so they can at least look at the final version of the document and they then email back and say yes I'm happy with this being attached so although they're physically signing it at the beginning ultimately when the final document is concluded it's still sent to that person and it's that sending to that person and the approval back that is the legal affixing the legal attachment to that original presigned page though the more that you both physically and electronically separate the signature of the page, the signed page from the actual document the more a risk the more fraud that could potentially enter the scenario and the more reason why I'm hesitant about that kind of process So we're back to the situation of having to be a legally identifiable process that connects that signature page to the document and I'm seeing you nodding so I'm clearly getting it right I think that brings us to the end of this can I thank you very much indeed Mr Gordon for your evidence to us to say over an hour very much appreciated we will have written down every word that you say you will find it in the official report perhaps we'll make sure we send you a copy of that Thank you Thank you very much indeed I think just for the moment we'll suspend this meeting just so that everybody can deal with the technicalities and perhaps I can have a cup of tea and we'll come back in a couple of minutes John's just on the phone We've got time It's very reasonable about it Can we go? No points Gender item 3 No points have been raised by our legal advisers on the building Scotland amendment regulations 2014, SSI 2014, 219 nor on the title condition Scotland Act 2003 rural housing bodies amendment 2 Order 2014, SSI 2014 220 Is the committee content with these instruments please Gender item 4 instruments not subject to any parliamentary procedure No points have been raised by our legal advisers on the marriage and civil partnership Scotland Act 2014 commencement number 2 and saving provisions amendment order 2014, SSI 2014 218 nor on the antisocial behaviour crime and policing act 2014 commencement Scotland order 2014 SSI 2014, 221 Is the committee content with these instruments Gender item 5 small business enterprise and employment bill and this of course is UK parliament legislation under this item the committee is invited to consider the powers subordinate legislation conferred on the Scottish ministers in this bill a briefing paper has been provided that sets out the relevant aspects of the bill and comments on their effect. Does the committee agree to report to the lead committee that it is content with the delegated powers conferred on the Scottish ministers in the bill and with the procedure to which they are subject? At this point I move the meeting into private for agenda item 6. I don't think that requires us to do anything so we are now in private. Thank you


Hey guys, this is hydro from x trades and in this video. I'm gonna be going over overall market analysis and What to look out for next week and the best setups for next week? So, yeah, as usual, we'll start off with the indices. We'll take a look at SPY first Yeah, so S&P 500 has been acting really really well recently, right really nice uptrend since last October and Yeah, we've been holding this rally or we've been making a pretty nice rally so far and We started to get a little bit extended last week and since then we've been putting in a bunch of consolidation bars Which is good action so yeah overall really really good action from the SPY and So there is resistance at that 430 431 level. That's where we got rejected last time We rallied so that is a key level to watch out for but overall This is looking really healthy So yeah, it would be normal if we did pull back to this trend line But as long as this trend line holds up, then I would say that We would continue to be in this uptrend and continue to be bullish until we lose this trend. So Yeah, overall really good action Let's take a look at the weekly chart real quick So yeah on the weekly again, you can see clear resistance at that 430 431 level Well, if we can take that level out next the target would be for 453 so Definitely a lot of room to the upside but again, you want to wait for some consolidation and hopefully We can go sideways for a week or two or we could pull back But as long as we're holding this uptrend, that's all that matters Now we'll take a look at QQQ So QQQ same thing right except this one's a lot more extended look at the distance from price that trend line versus Like last time we got that extended it was here right we got we had One two three four five weeks up in a row got extended and we pulled back to the trend line And then here we got three weeks in a row and then we pulled back to the trend line now We're getting very extended again So there's a good chance we could pull back to the trend line or just go sideways until the trend line Catches up so that's what we want to watch out for so definitely don't get too long right now because We are we definitely are too. We definitely are extended So you want to be patient wait for pullbacks and try to time your bias that way overall QQQ is very very strong right it's definitely extended here And it's been putting a lot of consolidation and that hasn't pulled back in too hard on Thursday or on Wednesday it did pull back pretty hard, but we bounced the Back on Thursday and Friday, but you know overall really good action If we can continue those if we can continue to go sideways that would be ideal Now we'll take a look at some of the big cap tech stocks start off with apple We'll take a look at the weeklies on all of these So apple looks really good, right? they got back they made new all-time highs last week and They're right now. It's still trying to hold up above the 181 level, but if apple can consolidate and If apple can continue to consolidate that would be healthy action, but yeah apple is definitely holding this up trend really well, but It did make a pretty pretty big move this year So I wouldn't be surprised if we just went sideways for a couple of months Even so just be prepared for that scenario as well Take a look at Amazon Amazon There's also what one two three four five one two three six weeks up in a row six screen Weekly candles at least but yeah this 125 is key resistance level well if we can take that out then the next target would be around the That 139 level and then after that it would just be back to 146 and Then 169 168.5 ish, but yeah, those are the key levels for Amazon and yeah, Amazon's also acting pretty well here, but Yeah 125 is the major resistance level for Amazon Let's take a look at Google So Google is setting up pretty nicely here, right? They had three strong weeks in a row and then it's not finally consolidating here tried to hit that 129 level, but it Didn't hit it almost, but it got close to it and then it rejected so More consolidation would be perfectly normal as long as this 119 level is holding out a Google is still definitely bullish But yeah more weeks of consolidation wouldn't be a bad thing since we did make a pretty strong move from this breakout level Yeah overall pretty good action from Google next up we'll take a look at meta Meta is another name that's been acting incredibly well all year long, right? Look that rally from the lows Went from 90 ish To 276 so that's a almost 200% gain so pretty insane move from a big cap, right? but meta is Acting incredibly well building a little flag here now So more sideways would be good because we didn't make such a big move So I wouldn't be surprised again if we just went sideways for a couple months and then make a move higher But overall really good action from meta as well Yeah, as long as that 256 level holds definitely continue to be bullish on meadow Next up Microsoft Microsoft also had a really nice rally like Apple from the lows. This one is Starting to form a little flag here, right? So you can go sideways for a bit longer and just rest and as long as it holds that 315 support level That would be completely normal As long as Microsoft holds that 315 any pullback would be completely normal from Microsoft, but overall really good action once again But yeah, if it can consolidate for a few weeks more and then break out again Then next turn it would be all-time highs or 345 first and then all-time highs Okay, let's take a look at Netflix So Netflix has also had had a really good week as well And now it's approaching a pretty significant resistance level. So that 420 level is a Yeah, pretty important level so I'm expecting Netflix to consolidate and Form a flag right below the 420 level and then after a few weeks of sideways consolidation Then we could potentially see the next leg up, but then Netflix has been holding a really nice up trend all year long Yeah, good action from Netflix as well and in video Let's take a look at the weekly chart for in the video. I Mean daily chart. So in media had a very strong gap up on earnings as everyone knows But now it's starting to form a pretty nice flag here. So it's getting pretty tight now And I would expect the breakout to happen in either direction pretty soon But if we do lose those gap up blows so 366 There's a good chance that in media could fall quite a bit So that would actually be a pretty good short play if that did happen But right now I'll say in media is holding up pretty well considering how much it gapped up But they're really good action from Nvidia and the more sideways consolidation wouldn't be a bad thing But it's getting pretty tight. So I would expect the move to happen soon Look at Tesla Tesla is getting really really extended right look at that move, right? It's pretty much completely Just goes higher and higher for like the last couple weeks But yeah, Tesla is definitely very extended now. So you want to see it pull back to this 234 level console day for quite some time console day for like a couple weeks because it just made such a big move right so you wanted to consolidate let it Tighten up and then potentially next leg up right now. Tesla's Tesla had a really nice move But now it definitely needs some rest Yeah, you just want to make sure that it can hold that 234 level and if it does I would continue to be bullish on it But yeah, Tesla is acting really really well as well Let's take a look at AMD AMD is building a pretty nice bull flag on the weekly chart here. Let's take a look at the daily So while a lot of stocks were not doing so great on Friday, AMD Was able to cap up not a strong close but Yeah, still holding up really really well and it tried to lose there are many times where it tried to lose like the 117 level, but it's been holding up really well and bulls are definitely holding the stock up really well so definitely a lot of institution supporting the stock and Overall really good action if we can break that bull flag then next target would be There's some resistance around that 147 level and then it would just be all back to all-time highs But yeah, AMD looks really really really good here Yeah, I really like that weekly bull flag setup, but Yeah, really good action from AMD as well. Okay now. Let's take a look at your AKK. So this is growth stops, right? So growth stops have been doing pretty well the last couple weeks So your KK had one two three four five six up weeks in a row. So that's really good action So Look at the daily chart. So yeah, there's definitely some resistance around the 43 level and it started to get a little bit extended But if we can consolidate pull back to that trend line That would be perfectly healthy action But as long as we hold that trend line, then I'll continue to be bullish on it But yeah, right now perfectly healthy action Here KK does trade very choppy. So I wouldn't recommend trading it, but overall really good action from growth We'll take a look at some of the Best setups for the coming week. So AI is AI is something that everyone's watching, right? AI is new team of the market and it's moving a lot of A lot of names and it's making pretty pretty explosive moves on big volume So AI is like the major one, right? Literally has this ticker symbol AI. I know that doesn't matter, but When there's When there's pumps like GME in 2020 and 2021 It doesn't matter if it's a shit stock as long as a lot of people are pouring their money into it It can make explosive moves. AI could be one of those Movers for 2023.  So definitely keep an eye on this one There is a little flag starting to form here Definitely needs to tighten up a lot more but More sideways consolidation and then this one could continue breaking out a lot a lot more Let's take a look at the weekly trade again Yeah, so next resistance level for AI Would we are on the 45 level So from current price that would be a pretty good move and then after that no real resistance until 65 and 73 and just keep note that this when the IPO it hit 183 So this one definitely has a lot of potential and a lot of room to the upside, but Yeah, definitely keep your eye on this one Let's take a look at Kavana This one had a huge move on Thursday last Thursday and it had a really big it had tons of volume And that's 175 million while you while you on that day. So that's insane, right? So this is another one that can continue to squeeze had a lot of shorts I mean has a lot of short interest. So this one can continue squeezing higher. So this one's definitely on the radar It already made such a big move from lows and went from three dollars to what? 26 on Thursday, so Definitely a lot of potential on this one and I'm gonna continue monitoring monitoring it if I can find a good risk reward spot to enter and yeah, this would definitely be a Name to watch for a squeeze Right next up get lab. This one had a really strong earnings report and now it's consolidating nicely here So it does have some resistance at that 50 level and there's also a little flag forming here So let's see if we can take that out next week, but Gap ups have been acting pretty pretty strong in the market recently So this one can definitely continue powering higher and if it does break 50 then the next target would be 54 But yeah, this one's definitely one that you want to keep your watch on It's also a recent IPO and look at that weekly volume, right? That's a sign that institutions are buying up into the stock. But yeah overall really good action from get love Ionq this one's acting really really well recently So starting to build the flag here. This is like a textbook bull flag, right? So this one made a big move right one from 5 dollars to 11 point six five So that's a hundred sixteen percent move and now it's going sideways So if this bull flag breaks then it can continue powering up and make another like up and look at that volume, right? This is definitely a sign that institutions have been buying up into the stock look at the volume before and look at the volume now There's definitely something going on in the stock and you want to be paying attention to it This is one that I think can easily double or even triple. So they're definitely keeping my on this one And then we'll take a look at Palantir So Palantir is also acting incredibly well. This one's just been going up up up up and up and It got really extended on Wednesday and then pulled back in pretty hard, but Overall still really good action. So I'd say resistance levels around that 15.75 and support level is at that 14 point 15 or 14.15 But those are the key levels for Palantir So if it can consolidate for a bit longer and then break that 15.75 level then I'll be looking for another leg up It will do upstart Upstart this one also same like Palantir It's just been going higher and higher and a really nice volume look at the volume before and look at the volume now Right something's definitely going on into the stock, but this one's acting incredibly well This one's a fast mover. So definitely keep it on watch But yeah right now it's just acting incredibly well And I think it can continue to power higher for next week and this one is so beaten down that has so much potential, right? Super super beaten down. So this one can easily double or triple in a short period of time So definitely keeping it on watch. But yeah, that's pretty much all I got for you guys for this week Thank you guys for tuning in


Hello, everybody. Good morning. Andrea Terebsi here with Dental Health Tutoring. So this Sunday we will be talking about oral pathology. So we will have our oral pathology case studies session. So very exciting because with oral pathology it's nice because we get to go through some images and you will all have to tell me what the image is and then you'll have to tell me what it's caused by and then how to treat it. So I just finished doing our lesson for Sunday. So let me go through a few questions and see if you're able to answer some of them. So let me share my screen here. Okay, can everybody see it okay? So it should say oral pathology case studies session. So there's about 33 slides altogether. Now in our lesson on Sunday, I will not only be talking about what's on the slide because depending on how all of you answer the questions, I may talk about another pathology or another condition if I feel that you find a certain slide a little bit harder for you because oral pathology is huge. If you do have an oral pathology textbook, you should look through all of it and I mean that. I know it seems daunting, overwhelming, but it will help you to practice looking at all of the images, all of the pictures and then try to decide because there are so many things that look similar. But you have to know, you will have to know the differences. You will have to know what age range they typically are for. You will have to know again how to treat it and then how to prevent it in the first place. So oral pathology, I find it a very exciting unit, but I can say that because I've been tutoring now for about 13 years. But when I was a student, I still found it exciting, but I did find it hard to kind of memorize most of the images. So in the lesson on Sunday, I will be going through the main ones that you have to know because for the board exam, you don't have to know all of them, but they tend to ask the same ones on the tests. I can't promise anything, but they seem to be very, you know, they don't seem to change the questions that they're asking for oral pathology. So let me go through a couple here. So not all of them because I will say that for Sunday. But let me go through a couple and then see how to do. Okay, guys. So the first question is, Samantha is a new patient. You are doing her full intraoral and extra oral exam today. You see a few things to make notice. What do you see here now as a new student as a new hygienist as a new assistant. You might be looking at this and being like, Oh my goodness, I see this, I see this, I see this, like, what are you asking me to look at here. So if you have this type of question on the exam, think what's the main thing to look at. So try not to look at your localized pathology, but look at the main thing that's in the picture, because sometimes you can look at a picture or you can look at the mouth and say, I see five different things here. So what one thing do they want me to point out for the best answer. So to help you pick the overall condition. So in this case, do you see thin enamel? Do you see dental erosion? Do you see crowns or do you see veneers? So again, two answers here are correct, but you have to pick the one that's the most correct. So stop the video if you're not sure because I will be talking about the answer now. Okay, but think about it. Think about how I said, look at the overall condition, but then you also have to make note that think of what the case study is asking you to. Okay, so let's move on here. So the answer is dental erosion. Now some of you might have picked thin enamel and you might be saying to yourself, well, erosion is thin enamel. So why would thin enamel not be the right answer? Well, the erosion is the best answer because if you look clearly more than only thin enamel is happening. So if you picked thin enamel as your answer, think to yourself, well, thin enamel could look different in many, many ways. Yet dental erosion only looks one way and this is the way it looks. You know, it's that yellowing. You can see the teeth kind of cup down a little bit like over here. That's specific to dental erosion because you can have thin enamel without having dental erosion. But can you have dental erosion without having thin enamel? No, because thin enamel pretty much is dental erosion. So does everybody understand that? So think about the answer, think about the case study and then look at the overall image. Okay, so let's go through one more and see how you do with that. Samantha has excellent oral hygiene, but you wonder why her erosion is generalized so everywhere. What could be the cause? Could it be eating disorder, assets, daily sugar consumption, or daily aspirin intake? This is another perfect example of two answers here are correct, but you have to think of the most correct. So stop the video if you're not sure because I'm going to be talking about the answer now. So acids is the most correct. A lot of you probably picked eating disorder as the most correct. In this case, it's not because if you move back to the image, typically, but not always. But the most correct way to determine an eating disorder is the front interiors are the only ones affected. Here it looks like all of them are. So you have to be even more specific and say assets. Now in an eating disorder, that is caused by acids also, but that's the main cause of the whole thing. If in the image you had seen only two of the front teeth affected or perhaps all three of them or all six of them, I should say, then the correct answer would be eating disorder because that is more specific. But acids is still the most correct in this case because the case study is saying that you wonder why her erosion is everywhere. Typically for an eating disorder, it's not everywhere. It's more localized. So if the case study had said localized, then you could be specific in saying eating disorder. But since it didn't, then you have to stick to assets. Okay, so you see how you kind of have to think about a case study a little bit more. So you have to really think outside the box. You have to think what they are thinking with these two are perfect examples of easy questions, making them very, very confusing because a lot of you, I'm almost sure probably said eating disorder, right? But now that you know that the answer is acids, now you're probably thinking, okay, now that makes sense. So this is what we do every hour, or I'm sorry, every Sunday for about an hour is we go through case studies. So if you need help with them, let me know because this is what I can help you guys with. Practice makes perfect. So if you are a dental L member, you have full access to all of this to our sessions for 2016 for all of them for 2017. So you will have every access to everything or sorry, all access to everything. So let me know if you would like to be a member because as I said, you guys practice makes perfect. Okay. So with the day to day Thursday. Have a good Thursday and I will see you guys next time.