What's good Josh your boy Ross back again with another video so I was having conversation with my homie Dub We was talking about how a lot of the social media websites now They all kind of operate the same. They all have the same type of features and you know what? I was actually kind of like wanting to see in my mind What's the most toxic social media sites out there in my opinion now? I'm only going to be given the basis of this toxicity Only in the sense of apps that I have used personally So I'm not gonna put tick-tock in that category because I haven't used it I'm not gonna put red it in there because I haven't used that really at all either But I'm gonna put the apps that I have used me personally and give my Toxicity rating on them. So I'm gonna start with the least to the most so for me right now At the bottom of the list is Facebook Facebook has its toxic moments when it comes to like when people post Certain stuff on their feed or what not a lot of times It's usually just how they feel about certain stuff whether it's political or what they're going through and they'll post a whole Paragraph on just how they feel and to me. It's it's nothing too crazy you may see some some funny memes here and there but Mostly I only the only reason why I even have Facebook now is just to See what my family and friends are doing that I haven't seen in a very long time.  I love God uncle I'm not reposting this post But that's usually what Facebook is is just for family and friends. That's the only reason why I have it So that's why it's at the bottom of the list for me personally because I haven't really seen too much toxic stuff on Facebook so that's number five for me at the bottom of the list number four I'm gonna give it to Snapchat for me personally Snapchat is still kind of booming a little bit, but it's not as it's not as popular as it once was I think tiktok is taking that over but snapchat. I mean it only really gets toxic in Like the DMs in the messages, you know I'm saying it that's the only time it really gets toxic man It really just depends on what you send in the people. That's really what it is So that's why it's not as bad. There's still some moments You know, I've seen a lot of people get caught up, you know Relationship wise get caught cheating through snap, but it's not as bad That's why it's still at the bottom of the list for me because people have snapped people still use snap But it doesn't give off that toxic vibe as much as more on some personal type stuff You know people out here using snapchat premiums and stuff like that So it's it's like more more private like probably some Toxic stuff going on behind the scenes on like just in the personal in the personal messages But outside of that, I don't really see one when I was on snap I didn't really see too much crazy stuff on there. So it's like, ah, it's it's still kind of at the bottom list for me So it's number four for me number three. I'ma give it surprisingly to Instagram Instagram isn't as toxic as people make it to scene. I'm saying toxic so many times now, but Instagram is like It's it has its wild moments. I think I think you there's a lot of stuff that shouldn't be seen on Instagram I don't I don't know how many videos of people getting hurt or killed is being posted on Instagram and that can be kind of problematic I think the most toxic thing on Instagram is the people in the comment section. That's that's about it That's that's really where it boils down to the comment section on Instagram is pretty wild But for the most part me personally, I haven't seen too much crazy stuff I just seen a lot of a lot of false narratives being posted and people not doing that research So I think that's why it bumps it up to number three for me because you literally could post something on Instagram And if it gains enough traction people will believe it It could be the most nonsensical BS and people will believe it if it got a lot of likes on it You know I'm saying it and scrims all about the likes and that's really what it is So if it got a lot of likes it got to be true, you know I'm saying so that's why I give it number three on my Toxicity list for apps social media apps because it has its moments But you know, you just got to really be aware of you know saying just what to believe and what not to believe so Number two will be you too But the comment section now I was just talking about the comment section on Instagram is pretty wild at times on YouTube it is a whole another beast. I'm not gonna put YouTube as a whole On the toxicity level for it being on this list because it's YouTube is not the problem Even though some of their policies are ass and it's it's definitely watered down from what it used to be But it's more so the comment section, bro If you really truly want to build tough skin make a video and it gets traction and you will I'm guaranteeing you will find somebody to say something negative about it doesn't even matter if it's Relative to the video. It is a toxic place in the comment section That's why it's on the list only because of that because I think there's a lot of amazing dope content creators Of course, there's some assholes on this platform, but I do feel like there's a lot of amazing dope content creators out here and It's the comment sections that just be wild, bro I mean y'all would be surprised what we've gotten on the in the clutch page Just nonsensical 10 page paragraphs talking about why our opinion is trash We're haters and all this other stuff and it's just it's like yo that that is truly insane So I have to put that up there because if you can stomach just the stuff that people say on the YouTube comments I think you will be fine on social media in general if you can just ignore that type of stuff I think you'll be fine. So that for me is number two only just because of the comments that is just oh boy Radiation of toxicity is at all time.  Oh My god, bro I've never seen a platform that was already kind of wild when it started up get even wilder That's one of the main reasons why I deleted my twitter because I just don't care to be on there And it's just like a lot of toxic stuff. I just didn't care to see bro Like I just I just don't care to see certain people's opinions So opinionated and like people will respond to somebody's post and then it would be 300 other tweets of people either co-signing people being assholes like it's just It's wild bro. Twitter is the wild wild west of social media and it has been for a very long time.  I'm just scrolling. What what what's happening Like what's going on? Like this is insane. That's how wild twitter is, bro I've seen so many videos. I wasn't trying to see like what the hell is this Why did someone retweet this and why is this on my timeline? Like it is insane, bro And of course, it's just like youtube with the comments people have their opinions and they're gonna they're gonna let the opinions be heard Twitter it's worse.  It's it's just a toxic place. Twitter is truly truly toxic So that's my list of just the toxic social media websites that I have used or do use Amen, I will say this I would say this to those that like being on social media and love using it all the time man Sometimes there's nothing wrong with just taking a little bit of a break even if it's for an hour, man Sometimes you need to decompress bro You gots to because just the wild stuff that we see online can definitely affect you mentally sometimes you tend to get Desensitized to the bs that goes on in the world So I'll say this to anybody out there, man There's nothing wrong with taking a break from these toxic websites from time to time And it's not the website itself that makes it toxic is the people that use it You feel me so I want to get y'all opinion on any other websites that I didn't list social media websites That I didn't list that I don't primarily use if you feel like they should have been on the list Let me know what order of toxic websites which y'all put in your own little order I want to see y'all lists down below. Give your reasons why man Honestly at the end of the day I do love social media as a whole it does allow us to connect to people that we never thought We would ever be able to connect with and I think that's cool But at the same time Shit is toxic be in these streets, but that's just what it is But I appreciate all the love and support road to 30k appreciate y'all kicking with me. See y'all in the next one. Peace


The inaugural international series Vietnam has brought the Asian tour to the Kean golf links in Cam Ran, a dramatic Greg Norman design and some good golf to enjoy in the opening round. Paul Casey though didn't particularly enjoy his first visit to Vietnam. He loves the course, he loves the people, he just didn't play well enough. This led to one of his rare birdies at the 8th, and around a 74, two over par Casey has a lot of work to do tomorrow. Takumi Kanaya of Japan played one of the shots of the day here at the par 4 tenth. Straight in for an eagle two, he didn't realize it at the time, but that helped him to a round of 69 for the international series Omen champion. Matthew Chum from Hong Kong only got his tour card in January, but the rookie played beautifully today at 67 for 5 under par with the help of that birdie at the 8th. It's good to see Gunn Chironko of Thailand back to full fitness again. He had four birdies in a row to start the back nine, and then another here at the 16th. He came back in 31, a 66 for 6 under par for Chironko. Another tour rookie Douglas Klein of Australia had a bogey free 66 in his opening round. There's a birdie at the 17th. He was happy enough with that, and so was Miguel Tabueno. Another bogey free round, six birdies in a 66 for the Filipino Manuel I second in the order of merit, only one off the lead. There were three players tied for the lead at the top of the leaderboard. One of them, Tehi Lee of Korea, two eagles in his 65, this with a birdie at the last 65, the best of the day here in Vietnam.


So, I am Maria, an artist based in Lithuania, and my background is that I started in contemporary dance, and then shifted to clown, and then it was a big clash for me between contemporary arts and the clown work, so I call myself now conceptual clown. And yes, and now I'm a fresh mom as well. And I'm Andrea Salustri, I started as a street artist, then I transitioned to philosophy and then dance and choreography. I was supported by Circus Next as a laureate in 2019, I created a couple of works, and now I am doing object manipulations. So, you will hear a philosopher and clown talking about sustainability. But you don't know which one is which. So, we are here today to talk about sustainability in more than human circus. What is that? It's that we both with Andrea, we are, I don't know if we are obsessed or just normally interested into a rethinking relationship with non-humans. So, both of us objects, and now I expanded also to rethinking relationship to animals in circus and arts. Yes, maybe then we touch also what is an object, if there are human and non-human objects, and what else is to be defined and identified as an object. But let's start sharing a little bit of our practices and how we encounter the question of sustainability in our practices. Yeah, let's have a nice photo to start with. Yes, so this is me under the sofa, and I think that's my starting point where I encountered the feeling and relationship to sustainability. So, I think six years ago more or less I started questioning what's my artistic voice, what's my artistic pleasure, what do I want to do for real, and I found out that my favorite thing to do is nothing. It was also before Corona times, so I was really overwhelmed and thinking about all the global crisis, it made me feel like, oh my God. And then if I stop and pause it's still also so much of happening that I started compared to myself to an object more specific to a sofa. So, I used to say I'm like cozy, cute, comfy, but so heavy and ignorant. So, I do believe there are some people who are also like in the question of sustainability, feeling like, oh, I'm relaxed and enjoying my life, but there is this side of ignorance, which is not totally bad, bad, it's also good. So, we will talk it more. But of course nothing is not really possible to do, I try to do it. It's impossible, so this is kind of a circus for me, but later on I started developing this and I started to have to do something. So, I started actually making shows for objects, first sofas, then more objects, and then later on it shifted to animals as well. But I didn't perform for animals, I invited ducks to perform for humans. This is my practice. Cool. Yeah, very cool. I encountered the question of sustainability working with polystyrene, because the first big creation I did is called materia, and it's an exploration of this. You can show also your photo. I can pass the sofa and arrive to polystyrene. So, what I do is a performance of in between choreography and object manipulation that explores the possibility of this material. But in the process of making this show, I was wasting a lot of polystyrene, which is not a good thing. So, the question, what do I do with this waste came very strongly inside of the creation process. And I started looking for strategies. The first strategy was to start creating some artworks, arguably, with the waste. So, in order to perform the show, I need to have a perfect shape to polystyrene, as perfect as it can be. It's a beautiful polystyrene. And when it's missing a corner or something like this, unfortunately, it cannot go on stage the magic with an actor. So, these fairly good pieces became this kind of artworks. And it's a growing series that is sometimes touring in connection with the show. There is an exhibition. The series is called Toxic Landscapes, and I manipulate them and I paint on them. And I really use the polystyrene as a canvas. And we have a brief parenthesis, because Maria and I, actually, first of all, we met in Circo Strad event in Kaunas last year, which is really nice now to be back. But also, Maria made a reformulation of materia. She made materia 2.0. It's a very sustainable way to make circus. You recycle someone else's performance. Super sustainable. And it's very cool. So, I recently made a film inspired by Andrea's work for polystyrene. So, polystyrene is the audience. It's serious. It's really happening, this project. Yes. And this happened thanks to the support of a platform called The Sphere, in which we are both inside. And you will hear about it, I think, a little bit later on from Ulle. Yeah. And so, what did we do? This series of artworks grew into kinetic installation and more. And we made an exhibition together recently in Kaunas. Everything is happening in Kaunas. It's the place to be. Here are some pictures. So, yes, as a sustainability strategy, this was the first approach that I did. I tried to transform the waste into artworks. Was it enough? Clearly not. We can expand. Yes. Yeah, about practices. Yeah. Just one second. Polystyrene recycling. Yes. So, what I wanted to say is that I had a lot of fragments beyond the semi-good panels. So, I went on the best place to find information nowadays, the internet. And on the internet, I found out that there are worms that can eat plastics, specifically polystyrene. That was really cool. There were a bunch of kids from high schools in the U.S. doing science projects. They are the best researchers ever. And also some surfboard companies that were using the strategies.  And it's super interesting. They are called the Doppelbast Morio. Commonly known, and you can Google these super worms. You will find them.  The first Santicific paper about them came last year in June from the University of Queensland that proves that they can only process polystyrene, but they can live on a diet based on soul polystyrene and they gain mass. So, they can really feed out of only polystyrene plus hydration. It's very important hydration. Yes, as a little example of how this sustainability question affected my practice and transformed my plastics, then I started making a little artwork with this polystyrene. So, in this installation we've made together, thanks to the support of this sphere, I made a little dollhouse for the worms to be destroyed during the course of the festival. So, it was there, they were eating the polystyrene, their own little house, and there was a contact microphone and you could hear them crunch, crunch, crunch, crunch. And yes, they were also touring with me around to get there. So, this is how I encountered first the problem. But now, as you were saying, we got a bit more deep into the practices. Yes, very deep into maybe sofas again. Yes, so in this photo you see how my show functions because there are no object festivals and I still really enjoy being with humans and it's my way of surviving as well. I have to go to human festivals. So, even though I do it for sofas, people come in and I need to deal with them. And it's really challenging. It is problematic, the object and the human relationship because if the human is standing next to an object, of course I'm more into a human. But it was a challenge for me how to separate it. So, I asked people either to go out from the show for 30 minutes or hide in the room so I can focus, or they should convince me that they are sofas. And most of the people are doing that. And why is it funny and also bizarre? But it's very good practice because they try to be an object. This is the practice I practice myself as well. And then, surprisingly, they really understand what does it mean to be a human. They start questioning what's the real vitality that's hidden in me because you cannot stop thinking. You cannot stop breathing. You want to pee and et cetera, et cetera. So, it's like very expanding your understanding who you are. And then, yeah, this is a show I made for cellos. This project is also great. The only sad part was that the producer that helped me to make this work bought all the cellos to be my audience. And it was a big conflict for me because I wish that none of my audience would be bought. If I travel with sofas, then I really want to do it for local sofas of that place. And it's the same with polystyrene. I don't buy polystyrene. I want polystyrene to be from there. And they are just about to be recycled and just before I make the film for them. And of course, I don't think that polystyrene and sofas will be very happy receiving my work. I know they don't have feelings and et cetera. But I do believe that they have some good vibe, some good energy, and they feel a level of different respect. Yes. And then maybe ducks. So one friend said, Maria, you still have time to do something new. Are you always going to talk to objects? And then said, do a show for humans, please. But I said, well, but non-human topic is very nice. I think it's advancing more and more. And I wanted to keep it. So I said, I don't want to perform for humans. I'm not ready. So what can be performers for humans but non-humans? So I thought about ducks. It was also the corona times. I was walking around the park. And it happened that I thought just looking at them, it makes me so much joy. And in circus, we are like losing this relationship to animals. It's becoming illegal. And it makes me a bit sad, actually. Because it shows with nice human and animal relationship. And then if we completely banned it out, it's a bit like it's good maybe for animals, but it's sad for me. So if I don't manipulate ducks, I don't try to change their environment. I just still, I sit still like a sofa and they look at them. I observe. I listen. I try to learn from them. It's beautiful. So this is how the show works. Like we do a little education lecture for people. And then we are teaching them how to look at life and things and objects, notice.  It takes two hours. So we are very welcome. Like with lecture, not just watching ducks. What about your practice? Just a little bit about your strategies. Because in all of this work, there are very clear strategies. Oh, good. You reminded me. So my strategies are that it's very paradoxical. So I really like to stay passive and do nothing. But on the other side, I really feel pleasure to look for this vitality and let's bring more life. So I do this or that. I don't like in the middle. Another strategy is that I really, as I mentioned, I try to be an object from time to time. Like, for example, I tried being a sofa, then being a human, then being half-half, and then reflecting. It's very recommended because you understand so much about how much imagination trying to understand what does it mean to be a thing, it brings. I think the level of creativity is hidden in there. And another very important thing is like trying to get out from anthropocentric approach. This is actually what we can expand on human and object relationship. I just find super fascinating about while trying to be something else than yourself. It's like the question of what is the difference between me and a sofa? As silly as it sounds, as strong as it is. It's really nice. And then there is this level of noticing and looking and really about rethinking our perception of objects that is really where our practices as different as they are, we really meet. And I think that the bigger takeaway that we would like to give out of this little talk is really about trying to stress the focus on our perception of the object environment in which we are immersed. And that we are trying to rethink somehow in different ways. You want to tell about your... Yes. There was a last slide about Maria and Polisarum. This is me trying to be Polisarum taking care of vacuum cleaner. In a film of Materia 2.0. In the best cinemas. Okay, my practice. I work with objects. At some point during my transition from juggling towards dance and choreography I started working not anymore with codified circus props and I started being very interested in common objects. So my practice would be to go to a studio completely empty-handed, see what we find them what I would have found there and there are always objects, objects that you think around yourself. And yes, and then I would start playing with these objects. And what I would train is basically not trying to find tricks not trying to develop my own skill and trying to be amazing in displaying this and that but trying to train my creativity because we are born with amazing skill of looking at the world with very curious eyes. We were talking about Ula, the baby, the other day having a 20 minutes investigation of a chair it was fantastic. It was the peak of our both practices. This is the core. Professor for me now how to observe objects. But really, and the more we grow into adulthood the more we become functional human being the more we know how to use things but also we lose the capacity to investigate them. And so defamiliarization as a technique to apply to objects in order to develop a language with each object and then try to build a dialogue this is really where my practice grows. Can I quickly add just not to lose I noticed the same issue that when we are in connection what's the problematic between human and object? When I started to work with sofas these people would ask me but do they like your show? Do they pay for tickets? How they react when you do this? So what it means it means that we immediately put our human perception that the object is kind of me type of thing and then we don't notice what real qualities the object has what does it mean to be a sofa for a sofa as a sofa not a sofa human and I think it's a big big difference to be aware of. Yeah and the real problem with our relationship with objects and the unsustainable part of our relationship with objects is how we perceive and interact with them that it's very often used and disposed kind of relationship. This is why I made a show with polystyrene like trying to look at differently to something that is usually you take it out of the box you take the goods out of the polystyrene and you trash the polystyrene away you go to a lavalette that you get your little picnic box and then there are these boxes of polystyrene flying around but then we're very well taken care of for but yes this is the concept so how can we look how can we put a spotlight on this and look at this thing that we usually don't look at as important and we see it very disposable in a different way. Can we mention what we discovered yesterday about your practice to to look for different affordances for the objects? Yeah, I was getting to that so what I do is trying to discover objects I started working specifically with discarded objects and whenever I go to teach a workshop I ask the presenter that is let's say facilitating the workshop to collect trash basically and this happens with scrapyard, this happens through secondhand shops, there's always something that they cannot sell anymore for long months and they collect and sometimes this grows into shows so here is an example I was at SAC, Seoul Street Art Creation Center I made a project together with a company from Seoul called the Churrosco and we gathered a lot of originally trash but then performative objects from the streets of Seoul and we made a show together this happened in 2021 with the support of Art Council Korea it was really beautiful and yes this was an example of this practice of mine that is looking for affordances for objects perceived objects with two main categories in mind, one being their design function and the second one being their economical value and often we flatten objects to these two parameters polystyrene as a very quickly exhausted function as we mentioned before once it's out of the package it's done, single use material and the second one is very low economical value it doesn't cost much I can throw it away, I can buy something new and this perception really affects the way we interact with things I have my phone here and a glass of water one is not worth as much as the other, I don't relate I don't invest it's completely different relationship and this goes on your daily life but I found it beautiful how we discussed yesterday that rethinking what else this object could afford prolongs the life time of that thing if you stop using the cup as a cup maybe it can be a pot for your plant and maybe later on something else so this is very beautiful sustainability possibility these are a couple of picture from the workshop there are different exercise and different strategies how to engage in a dialogue with objects and how to reinvent objects but as you were saying finding affordances trying to look at things that are familiar in unfamiliar ways it's really my strategy is to try to change our perception whereas you have different ways to somewhat get close to the same goal I go even more radical for example I did the workshop for sofas only people had to come but it was badly organized so I asked sofas to be in the room and for five days I would start with warming up so I warm up my own body and sofa can't warm up itself so I would do a massage for sofa and then we do contact improvisation together and then I was very excited I started to tell to people I'm doing this then some dancers said oh can I come to the workshop I see but you are not a sofa but if you want to do something for sofa please do and then in five days we started rolling around putting sofas on the head and being in very intimate relationship understanding your own body and the sofa this sounds very funny but it's a very anthropocentric practice and the anthropocentrism the core of it is the idea of subjective the idea that we can be affected by object as much as we affect object that the hierarchy somehow flattens and can be reverse even so if we stop thinking of ourselves as being able to use and dispose of everything and we start thinking of our role in the midst of it and how we relate with the different things that we are constantly surrounded by this is magic can happen things suddenly are beautiful are super interesting and you can have a 20 minutes amusement moment with a chair yes but it's hard I would definitely invite you to try this out but it is not easy I would say more than 20 minutes it might get boring I try to talk to sofas and perform for them and then oh I want something else so it's also good not to over judge ourselves but we are still humans and it's impossible to climb out from your own only human perception so what I do in this pessimistic moments when I'm like oh I cannot understand objects even if I try or animals then I'm just saying it's okay Maria just have fun just do whatever you want to do objects will not judge you they will still be in your show because you will bring them in they cannot run away so it just really liberates you so during corona times when everybody was stuck in their houses I did a workshop online for all the artists who cannot go to perform for humans and they said come on go to your room and perform for your objects in the house for your kitchen for your whatever and yeah people got inspired and had fun with it fantastic so we are not done yet we have a very TED Talk professional exercise that we would like to share with you so next slide please investigation time what we would like you to do we would like you to find an object preferably something that belongs to you you are full of objects I am using objects now to communicate with you I am working on myself just find something that belongs to you and we are going to and then we would invite you for one minute one or two can we do two? one and a half one and a half minutes we invite you just to look at the thing keep silent keep exploring and we with Andrea we give one object to each other as well yes but for you it is best you find something that belongs to you and you will find out how alien this thing is we just ask you for this minute and a half to keep your curiosity high not to finish it not to exhaust it like don't close the painting imagine you are a newborn and you are discovering this thing for the first time go baby style I am using a sofa so I wanted to go with the sofa but I don't have big one so I have a very small from my pocket that's perfect thank you do you have an object? yes fantastic then for one minute and a half in silent don't get too excited don't share it yet with your neighbors we do this you ready? we start here and now all around staring at one object in silence on the screen it is called the investigation time and at the invitation of Maria and Andrea we have one minute to stare at an object and I am staring myself at the microphone of course it's a very silence moment we can see people staring at their phone bottle of water let me see more paper I can see a ring small box so much and we are done thank you very much we are done with the access and with the lecture because we have homeworks for you we decided we don't share any of this experience you can share afterwards with your neighbors let's go to the homework first homework you can do the same thing with something that is in the way to your house it could be a tree, it could be a lamp it could be a graffiti on the wall if you stop for the first time 30 seconds to explore this in the same way you will never be able to see that thing the same way again you will always notice it when you go back home it happens so please do this homework only 30 seconds and if you want to go more radical try to be an object for two hours if you need help call me I will explain how to do it so thank you for listening to us thank you very much thank you so much Maria and Andrea so we have a 10 minute break now you can get up and get out if you want now we come back in 10 minutes, right? it is 25 but 11 local time here in Paris Pelouse, Roi, Villages de Cirque you are listening to fresh wave radio station streaming live the event and the artistic talk now we could think of an object to be in relationship with an object being a sofa and as you know in this event there are performances in the afternoon and and this is why I invited Fabrice Guillault from the company Retour Amont who does with the city like they asked to do with the object and I wanted to invite you Fabrice because your company does outdoor performance vertical performance and since one year is used to perform in the new circus place, new outdoor place here in Paris which is called Street Wat so I wanted to know first how does it look this specific place in Paris, the Rue Wat where this afternoon you will be perform again this Rue Wat it's quite strange and funny because it's nearly invisible when you arrive on the square you you see nothing a flat square you have some railings and when you watch under there is a hole like a canyon, a urban canyon and in this urban canyon you have the Rue Wat the name of the street then you need to take the stairs to go to that place and you can come into this creation on the pedagogic space it's a really interesting laboratory then it's when you are in the streets you have some walls 12 meters high and up there you have the square and up the square you have some buildings then it's multi-level space and there is some studios of creations and we made first time of creation that space in the wall then we were dancing on the walls and we the journey the movement of the dancer was doing some draws on the fresh paint then it will stay there for a moment and we began also to explore with students of the university because there is a university in the same street with a dance studio we have to say that this street is located in the 13th arrondissement of Paris which is very close to the new library the library of François Mitterrand it's a new old area that was re-urbanized with new buildings there is this university of Tolbiac very next to it the river is not so far away and it's in the south of Paris so just look to see the 13th arrondissement very nice and very lively area absolutely with a lot also of Chinese community of restaurants we had many experiences just now in that space and I like to imagine that the place where our work is like an apparatus it's exactly if I begin an exploration of the space and the creation space has some pillars some truss at the vertical there is some truss on the roof it's possible to hang on the wall we can dance in the void also then we are not using only the surface on the ground but you are using that space in the three dimensions completely because it's possible to hang everywhere it's possible to climb in the truss to go into the truss also in the really little space and we began this exploration with students of different levels some it's a spectacular place but it's not so easy to take the space in this place how do you look at it naturally how do you look to a place like that when you first arrive and say okay I will perform where is the first look for my practice it's really easy to imagine something in that space and it was really interesting the process we had in that studio we began the creation the research of the creation on the wall and a few months after we came again but we opened the door and we went on the wall of the real street because that wall is higher and it was really interesting to have a first exploration with a low level, 8 meters high and now we are outside with a 13 meters high and we continue the creation for weeks on that wall it's interesting for a space with open to street art it's a kind of laboratory we can begin to explore to imagine some process some movements and after that it's open to the streets it's open to the square up there it's open to the district but what is difficult when you do open air in the city we can imagine there is electricity there is cars buses people how do you work with the life inside the city while you work in this place I made this choice to do the creations nearly all the time of creation we do that sometimes outside in the city in order of with no specific organization and it's a surprise for people because when you have a show you have a meeting you know at what time it will begin but us we are we have some weeks and nobody knows what we are doing and some people are stopping asking and it's always interesting to create a kind of surprise with piece of art at the beginning we start we imagine the vocabulary step by step we arrive to the creation and we made the première the 2 of september on the wall just in front rewats tell us a bit more about what is happening this afternoon in the rewats we see it's a street but it's not only a street it's also a wall it's underneath it's a complex like a geometrical space it's a work about horizontality of pedestrian space and verticality and there is there is a limit there is a border between the horizontal and the vertical element of the street and I imagine that this limit doesn't exist anymore for my dancer because she can walk on the ground walk on the wall with absolutely no difference no border then it's a way to say we can forget some limits we have like a pedestrian like a citizen in the city and it's interesting to imagine that the borders the limits, interdictions can disappear sometimes yeah it's a metaphor of to go behind the boundaries to go behind you have already 20 years Gio tell us some amazing or strange or different places you went to perform all around the world last week we had an extreme experience in the Mont Saint-Michel it was it was incredible because we proposed to the audience to stay in front of the little mountains of the Mont Saint-Michel and the objective was to have this proposition to inhabit from the highest point of the Mont Saint-Michel and to be up to the audience sometimes really near the audience and how it was possible to inhabit completely this mountain with only 8 dancers but it was possible because we work at night and we have also some repertoires some process with video with big shadows and with our ropes we had the possibility to put some new journey, new lines to new trails in the void to go from the highest point to the place where is the audience and it was one of the biggest more complex space we never practiced before and abroad in the foreign country is there a place where you would like to go and dance because you try to dance into the sky in a way towards the sky also maybe I don't know if it's the ultimate destiny it is our future anyway I like to imagine some apparatus are fixed on the wall some of them can be hanged in the void because it's the vertical dance we imagine more walking on the wall dancing on the wall but we are the company exists since 35 years I said 20 because you look young and for a long time we dance on the walls and I had a kind of frustration to not inhabit the void then we begin to put some ropes between two buildings and after I began to imagine some apparatus to inhabit the void and the first of them was pyramid of rope with only four ropes but it was occupied by three artists inside that big pyramid it goes at 20 meters high and we hang that pyramid in many countries all the continents and it was a beautiful exploration of the void we made that in industrial spaces in fields near the sea in the mountains in the center of many cities and each time this apparatus is completely transparent then it's like if you put a slide then you see the action but you can see completely the city through it yes is it difficult to do this work in the city you have the authorization is it easy to invest the city when you do this kind of artistic movement in the buildings in fact for us it's really easy I say it's easy but it's a lot of work but we have the knowledges to organize that for example for the Monsa Michel we play also in the bibliothèque François Mitterrand then we made a show with 14 people it was a European meeting of vertical dance we began in Rewat with students of the university and after we went step by step to the bibliothèque François Mitterrand then we know how to speak to the owners to the people who are working on safeties and for us we are like like some workers like we have a process it's like if we are doing some paint on the wall then the people in front of us they understand our vocabulary and we imagine together some process about safety, about public protection and everything about the protection of the site also because when we are working on old buildings but the new ones they are not made for vertical dance then we need each time to imagine our anchors because it's often only glasses without way to put your feet or your hand the city has changed and the city is not made to be climbed down now this is what you observe it's completely incredible because with this practice we cross all the limits all the borders there is absolutely no limit I have a friend architect who is saying that the only limit is the distance where we can see because we can do what we want and it's funny because the owners and the city mayor and everybody ask us to do some impossible things and what is your favorite city to do your work your artistic work I'm really happy some time to work on really invisible sites for example we made an enormous project with 20 artists on the pillars of motorway in Saint-Denis which is in the northern part of Paris yeah it was a yes exactly but it was for meeting about architecture and the people say after when they saw the show on that pillar of the motorway we were under the motorway and they say oh it's a cathedral for dancing it's so so it seems to be made for then we will do some shows here later and I like also to work of course on beautiful spaces like Mont Saint-Michel but both are really interesting it's this notion of the relation we have to the city for me it's quite complex and we spend some time with that pillars with the different objects we are touching them we are spending time in the void between and we begin to inhabit and to have a strong relation to that space and we finish to love it really and we have some way we are kind with that matter some something really sweet with a strong easy object of the architecture is it dangerous did you have any accident never yeah but it's for that reason I have some white hairs I'm always afraid about the safety and it's it's not easy but for more than 30 years you're still scared yeah absolutely but at the base I am a climber then the risk in mountaineering or climbing even if you have the good material you have to take care on and what is the most risky to climb on the mountains or to climb on the buildings because you have many many risks you can't imagine I'm more a bouldering climber on a cliff climber then in mountaineering it's too dangerous and in the city we are obliged to take care about many many things you can control it whether it's bad weather you don't climb or do you do do you do your artistic show yeah absolutely I use the material my technical director is a architect and he's also a climber and then we have multi skills multi knowledges about construction about the rules about the material and we think always to the safety but my technical director Olivier Penel is not afraid he slips well he's a lucky man yeah yeah yeah absolutely what would be your dream what would be your dream like next big project or maybe small project yeah I'm really happy to to do this creation we just made this solo for me it's nearly a synthetic about the name of the company it's Rotoramon and with this solo it's like if we can give the image of we can go into the vertical direction we can be taken something like this like if gravity sometimes doesn't exist sometimes you come back to the ground because the ground is really present and I think that verticality it's from the rule to the to the stars it's what said the poet Roberto Rojas and we try to inhabit this we need the gravity to go down and sometimes the gravity perhaps doesn't exist we are taken by spiral I don't know what of energy we can go up and perhaps we saw that in the Monsa Michel we made a reality about the dream of the eyes of the tourists who are watching us and we try to the eyes of the tourists who are watching to the at the top of the Monsa Michel and with our ropes it's possible to do this journey of verticality that everybody has this dream to go further to jump on the wall to inhabit the void thank you yeah thank you let's go back to the ground now absolutely the last part of the morning thank you very much Fabrice Guillaume Compagnie Retour Amont talking about Rewa, Monsa Michel Sunny and all these places back to the morning session we are streaming now this morning fresh it's the last round table that will happen now it's one hour, one hour and an half round table with 5 panellists everybody


And joining us today on this, well, it's a season to be jolly, maybe in some parts of the world, but it's a season for politics as far as Indian sport is concerned. And so that's exactly what we're talking about. And joining us to do that are three veteran sports journalists who have been covering, I think everything that has to do with the national sports code with politics in within the federation and how the national sports federation which are the bodies that run various sports are managed are continue to operate and how they elect the bodies that decide policy as well as programs that are implemented by these federation. We will be focusing specifically on, of course, the board of control for cricket in India, the BCCI, which will be holding its AGM in just a couple of days on Christmas Eve, as well as the all India football federation, which held its AGM yesterday on December 21st. That's a day before we're recording this episode. And so joining us to discuss all these things, plus bringing in the perspective on Olympic sports and the IOA, we have let the Xavier, who's new state sports editor, of course, let's be welcome to show. Sharda, who wrote a fairly hard hitting and to the point piece on the stand times yesterday detailing what's happening in the BCCI, the power struggles there or the fight to sort of continue in power there and what the implications are thereof, including various commercial aspects that come into the story. And Jairi Basu, who has all the juice from the all India football federation AGM, what happened during the meeting, outside the meeting, and what is likely to happen in the next few days. Thanks. Thank you, everyone, for taking out the time and for joining remotely Sharda's in Bangalore, Leslie and Jairi for joining us from Delhi. I'll come to you, Jairi, first, because of course, that's the AGM that has already happened. And so, so we're reporting on actually the facts that went on there. So firstly, give us an outline of the piece that you have put up on Newflick that talks about the goings on in this very, very long meeting that transpired yesterday between the management of the federation as well as its permanent members, which are the state association. So see, Siddhant, yesterday's meeting was was long animated. And there was there was some some anxious people thought there could be some anxious moment.  Because before the before the meeting was held on November 21, when when all India football federation wrote to the members that they are holding a meeting on December 21. And they have gone to the AFF had gone to the court, seeking directives from the Supreme Court, since the election cannot be held as their as their new constitution is still struck in Supreme Court. And it has not been approved by the Supreme Court. At that point of time, you know, which we also wrote and discussed before that, at least 20 to 23, state association wrote to the AFF saying, some way or the other, everybody's language was different. But they are the point they wanted to make that the they wanted the election to be held in time. It shouldn't be shouldn't be delayed by any chance, because the AFF had gone to the court seeking extension for the for the current committee, which is headed by Mr. Praful Patel, who has already completed his three terms yesterday and 12 years. And as per the 2011 sports code and AFF constitution, he is not eligible to continue anymore. But what happened in yesterday's meeting, the members who wrote the latest didn't say much. Mr. Patel, the meeting went for more than three, three hours. Some of the members were saying that they were so hungry, they thought they will go out of the meeting, because it started at five, and it went beyond eight o'clock. So 5530 started with went beyond eight o'clock. Mr. Patel spoke there for near more than 100 minutes. According to the one of the members, he told me that he recorded it for some one hour, 20 minutes or so, then he stopped it, because he thought it is going on and on. Mr. Patel apprised the members. He first thing Mr. Patel said that he had completed his term. He is no more eligible to fight another election.   Then he said, if the members wanted, he can relinquish his office and the con and the and the committee should continue. He also said that then he then he read out read out the legal legal opinion which has been given by his by AFS legal team. He also said that that he is bit concerned, because if the AFF becomes without a leader, then it will be it will not be good for the game in the country and the for the AFF itself. That's what he he said. So finally, what happened? Each member most of the members were asked for their opinion. So some of the members said that that in that case, we should continue till the till the Supreme Court order comes on the on this thing. And one of them was of course, the goa goa president, I believe was was very forceful. He also said that you should continue. I must remind you the goa president is Mr. Churchill Alemo, who is an NCP MLA from Goa. Whatever. And then finally, Mr. Subrata Dutta, who is the senior vice president of the AFF. Yeah, so just for those who might not know, purple potato is also connected to the NCP. And therefore, therefore, whatever. But this this the said there is no politics in it isn't it is all football. So what happened after that? Mr. Subrata Dutta, the senior vice president, he moved at the solution saying that that Mr. the current committee headed by Mr. Patel should continue till its directive from the Supreme Court comes. And it was it was also given an impression that it is going to be a kind of caretaker government. Because it was Mr. Patel said no major decision financial or policy decision will be taken during this period. And he told the members the moment any directive come from the comes, he will not even wait for a minute. He will leave his post immediately. That's what he is very very fine and very fair. But at this point, if I can just jump jump in and ask you the the this question has been a matter of litigation now, since 2017. Yeah, yeah. And and so therefore the claim that the AFF president has made during the AGM that was held on December 21, is that no major financial or policy decisions have been made since that time. And that that practice will continue till the Supreme Court finally gives it order or decision, whatever the is that correct? I think it is far from correct. I can I can cite many decisions from 2017, which has been taken, which has been taken. And they were if you don't call it a major policy decision, I don't know what does it mean by major policy decisions. Like I give you a few examples. In 2009, I was reduced to the second division and another league which was made the number one league of the country. I think it's a is the is the biggest policy decision in Indian soccer history for many many years. Is it not a policy decision? Even yesterday in the AGM, there were they were talk about and it was approved that that around 40 crores, I think most of it coming from FIFA and FC for as grants will be spent for that national. What do you call it national center for excellence excellence within which was approved by the AGM? Is it not a policy decision? That the AFF is bidding for the bidding for the AFC Cup in 2027? Is it is it not a policy decision that the AFF has twice changed the dates of the dates of the under 17 World Cup for women? Is it not a policy decision? See, the Federation cannot be run without taking these decisions. Yeah, so you cannot blame them for it. But to pose that we have we are like a caretaker government is I think is absolutely ridiculous if you ask me. Okay, that's an I was fair enough. So I would also like to we will come to your specific sports. Leslie, you you're looking at your game going to give us some information and updates on what's happening with boxing. Sharda, we'll we'll talk to you in detail about the BCCI. But in the meantime, I'd like to invite you both also to jump in and ask Jerry any questions if you have any as in when those come up. But I have plenty for one for one Jerry. It's clear I think to anyone who's watching an outsider or a layperson or a football fan that's a simple decision. But you didn't need to go beyond the first one, which is where you said that there was there was a clear decision on the part of the Federation to sort of demote the I League to the second division and promote the Indian Super League, which is a much newer tournament, which as we all know is in its seventh season. And give that the AFC Champions League spot and the number one sort of the top of the top tier as it were of Indian football and the ACL spot and the ACL spot. Yeah, absolutely. The the AFC Champions League spot and thereby essentially granting the rights to a private tournament, which is which is sort of owned and operated and managed by private entities. Those being of course, the commercial partners also of the All India Football Federation. The sort of lead role the Premier League spot as far as India is concerned. I don't think there can be any debate about whether this is a major policy decision or not because it clearly is so so why make that argument at all in a in a meeting that's been recorded that's been reported on widely for posterity for for whatever reasons I mean even members of I'm sure members who were present in that meeting were like you said, were making recordings and making notes of it for their own purposes. So why make such a statement and why make all these claims? What what from your conversations with people who are in in in the system? What are the possible motivations for this? Apart from sort of trying to post like hold on to the Gandhi for as long as possible? That is one reason what what you said is the is the prime reason. And another reason could be that holding on to the Gandhi, which you said that is good. That is the prime reason of course, another reason could be that so far in the last 20 years in my in my memory in the last last 20 years, except for the 2000 elections in the last 20 years when player and in the last one she and some it tougher for the presidency that was that is 20 years ago in Delhi. In the last 20 years, I have never seen at least in my experience of following Indian football closely, I have never heard the the state associations raising their voice against the federation on any count. 23, 22 or 21 state associations writing letters to the federation and seeking election is unprecedented, which I think has I won't say that I have got FF rackled.  But it has made them think, I think so they try to make a few concessions. They are holding on to their chairs. That's why they wanted to make a few concessions. That's why the such as such as concessions that we are, we are only a character government, we will not take any decision. And we will vacate the post the moment court order comes. But the thing is that when AFF went to the court, seeking directives, that time nobody was consults consulted, no member was consulted at that time, no state association was informed, wasn't was not it a wasn't it a policy decision? Yeah, seeking extension of mandate. Isn't it a major policy decision? Who was consulted at that time? Nobody was so again, from a very outside perspective, a few weeks ago, you look at these 2021 state associations, writing to the federation saying, when you approach the Supreme Court asking for an extension of the mandate, without any elections being held, etc, etc. You are looking for, obviously, a change in the dynamics in the situation, right? So what transpired over those few weeks that has led to now, the same state federation's attending the AGM, and not voicing the same concerns. Why? I mean, I suppose, apart from the fact that okay, now, maybe the approach has been a little bit more of a soft glove approach. I don't know if that's the term. But but it's a more of a gentler approach saying key, I'm upset, but then we are going ahead with this plan, and we are proposing it to you, and we ask you to give your opinion on it. So apart from that little change in, what the behavioral change, what what is different in these few weeks that I think turn around. One one reason is a people a couple of a couple of senior officials of the AFF who are close to Mr. Patel, they kept on. They have they kept on what you say, talking to state associations, their secretaries, their presidents, everybody asking them why that we were doing it and and telling them that they can, he can, these things can be can be mended, this can can be changed. And another thing is that some of the states of state associations have our good within themselves, and also try to influence the other associations saying that since the matter is in is in Supreme Court, then why get into it? What is the point of arguing? Let Supreme Court come out with a with a verdict, let Supreme Court say something, we will see what happens. And then we will talk about it. Because there is a time factor involved involved in this, this, because there was a committee which was working on the constitution of the AFF, which apparently submitted the constitution this year early, I believe February, and the Supreme Court has not acted on it or made a decision on it or ratified it. So we are talking about quite a delay in that matter. And so I guess now that if you're looking at the timeframe involved, then it's going to be a long drawn affair. And can I also just say that, you know, expecting the court to act at speed in a situation which is asked for a change of fundamental change in sports bodies functioning. It's a bit in the light of how generally things have happened in the court. It's a bit sort of expecting too much. You're expecting and at the same time, you're seeing in cricket that there is almost a defiance of the new constitution that has been given to them that has been ordered by the court. So it's almost like governors or sport in India are now looking at the court and saying, let's use this in the best way that we can make it work for us. The ones that want to hang on to their places, whether it's in cricket or whether it's in football. Let's work with the with the slowness of the legal system to start with and to use that. And if they change and we don't like what they change, we will pay no attention to it. You know, who's going to keep going back to court? There is this as well. So it's almost like AIFF is waiting for a legal stalemate that they'll just continue in this way as long as they can. Absolutely. Absolutely. That's a game plan. Game plan. Very obvious. Yeah, obvious. In between all this, there was a case that was filed by a former India player seeking, I mean, again, in the Supreme Court, and anything on that? Yeah, anything on that, because I believe you spoke to him the other day. Yeah, yeah. I spoke to him and sent me and sent me again, trying to expedite the situation, a little bit putting in another appeal to the Supreme Court to speed on things up so that the elections are conducted. Yeah, he has he has filed a petition. And now he's waiting for the for the date to bring it up. I don't think it is becoming before January. Because because all these things were supposed to come on 18th of December, some people said it might come up in the court hearing 18th of December. But somehow it did not happen. I don't know why it did not happen. I have no idea about it. But AGM has passed off rather peacefully, because nothing has come up in the court. So yeah, as per also my little bit of information, the this matter, the field cover that has been presented to the Supreme Court, which contains the new the draft of the new constitution constitution will come up for listing before the Supreme Court on January four. Okay. So it's only on January three, when we'll know whether the Supreme Court has the time to sort of take that up in its proceedings for the following day, or whether it will once again be, you know, pushed aside for more pressing sort of matters that the court needs to adjudicate on or give some sort of opinion on. That's one. Secondly, and we don't we don't honestly know whether or how long this this process will continue. Given that in mind, what could be a possible sort of end goal how long this obviously can't continue indefinitely. Sharda, you've already said that like the purpose is to continue this process of litigation continually, right and use the courts as a maybe a way out, rather than a solution in terms of figuring out something long term, but just to stall matters and keep things stuck for as long as people may maintain the status quo as long as possible. How does all of this figure in terms of the fact that the Ministry of Youth Affairs and Sports has already de recognized several of the National Sports Federation, which includes the All India Football Federation, and and who will sort of to be held accountable for the impact that comes there off because it's as far as what is in the mandate of these associations of these Federation. It is of course growing the game and then ensuring that those that are part of that fraternity playing the game and and associate it with it also continue to benefit from the system around it. So the rules very clearly according to sports code state that you know a lot of the impact will be held not just by the the governance but but the athletes involved because you you are if you're D recognized you are not eligible for a government job. You're not eligible for college admission on sports quota.  So so it has wide ranging impacts maybe not on the the administration but on the athletes that are involved in this and this applies to men women, everyone who is associated with that Federation. So so to that end, how do these caretaker governments as such function and what is happening to people impacted by this recognition because it's an annual process now. Look, yeah, and I think putting making it an annual process was supposed to bring in a certain question of accountability and responsibility from the body. But let us remember that in the Indian scenario, what all of us as journalists must literally put plant in our head the fact that the ladder of importance and of hierarchy in Indian sports starts with officials, maybe media, maybe not, and players at the bottom. So you're saying that look at the look at all the look at all the when when in fact, it should be the other way around. This is Joy Bhattacharya, a great hierarchy of Indian sport that he has created. I'm just repeating it. I must give credit. He said it should be athlete. The Federation should be thinking of athlete media and then official them. It works. So you have to remember that all these consequences of the recognition, it's on the athlete. It's not an official. It's not on, you know, it's not it's not happening to them. If the athletes that are not able to get a job, get a college admission on quota. So it really is not priority. Priority for my voice is rising because this is a favorite topic in my priority for Indian sports, administrators and governors, majority, I say, I say 90% and I'm being kind is themselves. They're forced what they do. What are the perks of the job? That's what it is. If there are some people and even the BCCI, which is supposed to be best run in air quotes, organization, we can see what's happening there, you know, best organized. In that article that I wrote for AC yesterday, the actual number of people impacted by no cricket because of COVID 6,500 players and 500 officials, you know, there's people that that umpires for so and so. And but there is no mention of that. There is no question of so which tells you why you need governance restructuring and all that but look at the level of brazenness and shamelessness that you are ignoring all the new rules that are supposed to be in place. People who are going to attend the meeting day after tomorrow. They are not they should not be standing for office.  So there is no, there is no sense of remorse. It's almost like a reflection of what's happening in the country of whatever actions they take, there is no sense of remorse and that you are actually answerable to a larger population than just yourself in these positions of power. And so in your assessment, Leslie, yeah, I was going to ask you anyway in your assessment. Is this something that you're seeing across several federations perhaps that have been that are I mean 57 I think as for the last listen and three were recognized after that. So, so I would imagine a vast majority of recognize the Olympic sports or globally played sports are on that list. They have been deregistered. So if Sharda saying 6500 which I would assume to be a very sort of upper range like a lower estimate of how many people are impacted by the fact that cricket is not going on in the country. But perhaps already people who are already in the system and at an elite level at some yes. So if you go down further to the grass roots and the numbers will be massive. Same with with football, if you consider that, for example, the youth league have been postponed because of the pandemic, even though elite level competition is continuing. Tens of thousands of boys and girls across age groups are impacted by that. Leslie, are you seeing this similar a similar trend in sports like boxing and wrestling, which are potentially medal winners for India when the Olympics finally come around in 2021 for me or whenever that happened? As far as the present is concerned, there's no conflict going on in the wrestling federation. But if you a decade and a half back, there was a huge conflict. And in that crossfire, many athletes including me lost our career since in the sport. So that is one point that I wanted to add to Sharda's and your discussion about athletes losing out on certificates on jobs and getting college admissions and all that. They get caught in the crossfire. So if there is a if there is taxional fights happening within the system, it's not happening in the air for fat press at present because it's I mean, it's a huge caucus that's controlling it. And the same with many of the other federations where the top people who are holding onto the seat are very strong that they have subdued all form of factionalism or voices rising against them. But in the in the boxing federation, which was supposed to have its elections this year, a new faction has come up, which is challenging the existing president who is addressing the owner of spices. And so the election, the AGM for boxing was supposed to be held on the 18th of this month. And quite quite the opposite of what happened in the air. Majority or well mean majority of state associations wrote to the boxing federation of India elections returning officer that considering the dangerous circumstances of COVID-19 and considering the age of the officials who are all above 60 70. It's not safe to conduct AGM and an election this year. So please postpone it. So and and the returning officer agreed to that and the AGM on the 18th as well as well as the election was postponed. But now there is a reason why this game played out. It's because Ashish Taylor former Maharashtra Sports Minister and a BGP leader, he has thrown his hat into the competition into the into the fight for the presidency of the boxing federation. And he has some support. I'm hearing that Jake only the current secretary supporting that faction. And so there is an internal fight happening there. So there are some associations who are with the new group of people who are trying to take control of the federation while the existing president has some people with him. So yes, it's very clear. And it's also alleged by the other party that he has mobilized these letter writing and then use that to to get the elections postponed at the same time on the 24th of this month, couple of days from now, they're they're holding an emergent meeting where they're trying to extend the mandate by three to six months till the COVID crisis is extend the mandate of this body till the till the crisis is so against that there is a I mean, it's like a soap opera. You can easily lose track of it. So against that, UP Boxing Association has filed a file a case in Delhi High Court, the hearing happened last Friday. But the ask you for a stay order for them on the emergent meeting, but the court didn't agree to that and court has set a new date for the hearing on January 10 very convenient because the emerging meeting will happen and most probably the mandate would be I mean, extended to six more months and everybody is happy, except for the people who wanted election in the body. And again, so once this kind of actual struggle happened, what happens is that there is always a like, likelihood of a breakaway federation or cases happening and adult body coming into play and all that. So this happens at the high level at the at the National Federation level. And then what happens is they could lose recognition with the with the World Body Boxing Federation had already lost recognition in the early part of this decade. And that that political game trickles down to the district level, even because every every person up there in the executive committee or the national general body will have their people backing right from the state association district association. So factions happen right through till the grassroots. And that is where youngsters and I'm talking about generations of people losing out generations of athletes losing out because they just don't know which body which person and if you if you end up competing with one, one association or one set of officials, then you get devoured by the other and God help you if that other person is the one who will be on the winning side. So that's that's that's my story if you ask me. So I'll sit down. I'll just jump in. You know the story of Deepak, Karmakar and her going to Rio is founded on the background of this to warring gymnastics Federation. Yeah, you know, and if she had not pushed and like her like her coach had not gone to the minister, this had not happened. This had not happened. She would not have gone to Rio. You know, this is a winner of a Commonwealth Games India's first gymnastics medal at a Commonwealth Games at a big international event. She would not have gone. It's okay. She did win you a medal in Rio, but she made the final. She was there. She was fourth. So and this was happening behind it. There were these two things you can go for this exactly what Leslie is saying. Yeah, and it's very clear that these officials were fighting each other. I mean, I've seen that that in 10 years time, they will be friends, they will be ruling the Federation together while they are very vindictive towards the athletes who we know which way to compete and they just want to compete. That's that's the whole point. So so this this the in fighting beyond officials losing their chair and Federation's direction and all that. It just kills generations of athletes and we lose momentum and boxing Federation clearly when Boxing Federation lost his recognition in 2013 14 and then look at how our performance was in 2016 Rio again, we didn't win a medal and before that, 2002 London as well as in Beijing in 2008, we got one medal, but many of our boxes were there in the there or thereabouts in the middle rounds as well. I mean, they could have won. I mean, they just lost narrowly, but in Rio, it was it was completely bad performance. That's because they lost out. I mean, and these are elite boxes. So imagine the picking down effect down the down the road. That's that's how it's how does it work in cricket because like that is what grabs the most eyeballs by far in country and I think even the people watching probably far more concerned about how cricket features in this conversation versus any of these other sports, respectively, what we might be. Firstly, what a constitution hair. So, will put my constitution hair to Joe proposed Kia Jara from by those who are currently holding the positions. What what is their kind of stance and and what in your opinion is is their end game? What are they looking at achieving? The end game fundamentally is to hold on to office. That's the end game.  The only thing that the BCCI old officials argued about or focused on or concentrated on was age limit and tenure and cooling off. They were not bothered about anything else. The issues they should have addressed was that listen, we think that your conflict of interest rules are a little bit wonky. Can we work them out better? Can we have a conversation with you? They had six months to address these things. But all that they were worried about was age limit may or not. Cooling off may or not. Now that they've got this done, they are literally they are ignoring the constitution that was formed. They are ignoring all the new rules that are in place. They have all planted their various family members into the post and the older guards, which is Srinivasan, Aniruch Agri, all these names and taking Anurag Thakur, they are making sure that they can control the state associations that are there because they've got family and their own people, friends and all friends and family. So their whole game is to because BCCI is so much money. And you know, there is a there's a very interesting bit in Ram Guha's book, which I just read, which said that there was a Deloitte's did like an audit independent audit. And they could not share it because it was so horrific. But they said we'll give you a hearing and Ram Guha took notes about it and he said that some people were giving you accounts handwritten on a piece of paper. These are state associations. Every year from say 2008 or close to the IPL has been around. State associations have been getting 50 crore rupees between 30 crore rupees a year on average, all state associations a year state associations to function. The whole thing is to be sitting on this money. How are you going to use it? You know, what you're going to where are you going to plant it? Where does the money go? All those are what governance is supposed to be about the the BCCI's office where they had the main thing both in the sports code and in the BCCI constitution is separation of governance and management. The moment you separate governance for management, then these guys, their job is to think about the game and to focus on what they can do in terms of wider, broader perspective sort of Ganguly should be thinking about women players, junior players, first class contract, that is their responsibility. But no, they are thinking of what you have disconnected them from the money because the money is looked after the CEO, the CFO has gone. There was a chief operations officer who has gone. So they have stripped the entire management office of its capable people, because people don't want to work there. So the end game is to just be in charge of that money and control the little things, you know, control the handouts and the largest that you give one way or the other. If it's a sponsorship deal, what will you get from it? You know, the story of sort of Ganguly's many conflicts of interest. It just boggles the mind that they are even there and they're not talked about. And they are being now said that this is a political game. He's a soft target. So that is the whole thing that is in play. It is about power and control and being at top. It's not that they're robbing money from the BCCI's treasury, but they are controlling all the favors that you can give and get in return for the things that you do, which may be without the CEO even having any independent sort of input into what's going on. The current office bearers that way, again, it's, it's hardly surprising because it was a compromise formula, right? Because otherwise, otherwise, these, these two jesha as well as sort of Ganguly wouldn't have been there. So all these old players in Srinivasan and everybody had a, had a stake in it. And this was the compromise that they made. And beyond that, I guess, maybe the unreaded agreement was that we will ensure that all these tenures and everything would be removed by the time, by the time because I follow the story of this whole thing so closely, you could literally see the media management that was sort of going on behind the scenes, you know, so when the first thing that the, when the reforms came, they said, hey, ministers go to bring sports, ministers go to bring sports code. So sports code will override the BCCI code, nothing of the sort. No sports code came. That's sports code, which is quite dramatic. This 2017 one, it's hanging because they do not want something which says that ministers cannot be there and all kinds of other crazy sort of very fanciful and dream scenario sort of conditions are there. They'll not push that, they'll not push that through. They don't want to push it through. So and almost as a reflection of what you're seeing across other Indian sports happening is that you are literally, the cricket has a sort of life of its own and its own energy and it's got this vast sort of it's a magnet that people are attracted to. But you should have a team that should be winning every international match at play. Okay, not every, you should be super dominant. You should be winning everything. You have resources, grounds, money, everything at your disposal. People, talent coming in. So what you're going to do is maybe it'll run for a while in this sort of manner. But who knows, you know, what happens? Why are you not winning more? Same thing. Why is, why is, why do we not win more medals at the Olympics? It's not athletes is because the sport is administered so shabbily in this country that you see the consequence that the medal stally response is a response to the administration and not thought to be athletes. And that makes absolute sense. I don't think anyone watching this will have any sort of questions about the motivation because understanding, I mean, it's fairly simple power dynamics which operate in at every level of our life. And this seems very similar except with billions of dollars at stake and of course, control over cricket. Jerry, you know, Joe, now that how much of a role has the pandemic played firstly in all of this first and secondly, 2017 was when the new constitution or was asked for or where the ombudsman was appointed and and Bhaskar Ganguly, former India captain and S.Y. Kureshi, former election commissioner of India, who appointed to kind of write that constitution and then give it back to Supreme Court who would then ratify it and then everything that happens in the AFF would would be according to that new constitution. And now 2017, say like a 2020 end, they have obviously been several delays in that process. Even if we say that, okay, that sealed cover was submitted to the Supreme Court early this year. A lot of time was wasted or was not not I wouldn't say wasted because I'm not accounting for the time but a lot of time went by without any action having been taken. So so the timing of all of this also given the added sort of angle of the pandemic seems completely off. See, this is nothing to do with the pandemic. First of all, the the the committee which was headed by Mr. Kureshi and Dr. Kureshi and Bhaskar Da, they were told to submit the report within eight weeks. What stopped them to submit in what what made them to submit in three years? I have no idea. Which maybe there was some problem. I don't want to criticize them. But I thought it has gone too long. They could have given it earlier itself. So there was some lethargy on part of some people somewhere. I cannot blame Dr. Kureshi for it. But look, since I have no evidence or I cannot say anything on this, but I everyone thought it is getting too late. And one thing is there when when Dr. Kureshi has claimed in a PTI interview that he had already submitted in February 2020, which Leslie said at the start of our conversation. And and Supreme Court has not taken note of it because they are at the moment busy with so many other things, more more important things they have in mind, which is also fine. But at the same time, when so that means the Federation, everybody knew that if the Constitution doesn't come, the Federation elections could be in jeopardy. We take everybody new and the Federation elections is in December December 2020, which everybody knew from December 2016. Because it had to be held in four years. Everybody knew about it. So why for this extension of mandate and for the for the for the for the directives from the from the Supreme Court was sought in November 2020. This is like cannot understand. This could have been asked six months before. This could have been asked four months before. This could have been asked one year before. Just before one month before the before the before the election is supposed to come. Why the timing? Well, that is that is that is what baffles everybody. The Federation, if they were they were really willing to idea to say if they were really willing to hold the election, they could have gone there one year before. See, one year from now is our elections. Please let us know what to be done on that. On on on the December 21 year is your election and you go to court on a court on in November and November 21 you write a letter to the State Association saying which we have asked for the extension of mandate. So there is something something funny something very funny and something there is to be fair to the Federation. Last year they were busy demoting.  No, no, they they are not, they are not see they are, not bothered. What you and I think is not bothered. They are not bothered. Let you take it. Take it later. We are nobody. correct. We are only wasting your time talking to each other. They must be laughing if anyone is watching, they must be laughing. Yeah. So the same thing, if if when we talk about all these federations and all the infighting that's happening there in June, July, I believe, the body which is which is the umbrella over all these federations, the Indian Olympic Association, what mess played out in front of the internal fight between the president and the secretary. Yeah, yeah, yeah. See my experience, I'm telling you, Siddhanti, you have since you have asked this question, Siddhanti, in September, I think in September, I think I asked a senior AF official that what is happening to your to your elections, he started laughing. He said, I said, why are you laughing? He says, just wait and see this committee will go forever. I said, how can that be possible? Your elections is in December 21, as per the sports code. How can it be? Then he said, don't show much interest, you will get to know about it, but they will continue after that also. So that means, that means it was planned that this is going to happen like this. I'm inclined to believing that because I believe Praful Patel has been president of Western India Football Association since 1993 or something. Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes. And most important thing is that as the president of the AFF, he advised all these state associations to accept the AFF constitution as the model constitution. The AFF constitution says, nobody can stay in the office more than 12 years. So AFF president wrote it to Western India Football President, and Western India Football Association did not enter to the AFF directives. This is what happened when N. Sivasa was in the ISL franchise owner, he was in the IPL franchise owner, IPL governing council, and president of the board. So he could sit in one room and have a conversation with three people. At the moment, he is his FIFA council member, which is I think for an Indian in any sporting body, it is one of the highest posts because FIFA is one of the biggest sports federations in the country. But what is the quality of person you are sending out in sports administration? I don't want to get the program into trouble and whatever, but please. But you look at people who are on top of all these bodies also. You look at the platter who is not in jail. But yeah, you can understand the game that plays on at that level. Another thing I want to add, just what you since you asked, and I completely believe what Mr Patel has said in the meeting. He has said he will not stay a moment after the election is announced, which he will add her to. But the thing is that when the election will be announced. Till the Supreme Court case is over, he said, but the question is when the Supreme Court case will be over. You have to have some, somebody has to be in a hurry, but nobody is in a hurry. It's an interesting thing because also of course FIFA get involved in these situations and and some of us also have have also indicated that for example, there was a suggestion that was mooted of a of a kind of collective decision or a call being taken between FIFA, the all India football federation, as well as Dr. Gureshi and Bhaskar Ganguly, who was supposed to set up the constitution to kind of figure out what are the roadblocks, why is it not going ahead, etc, etc. But that to the best of my knowledge, that call has not taken place. There's also the added the sort of sort that is dangled at least as far as the media is concerned. Now, this happens very often in the media where a federation or the IOA, the Indian Olympic Association, says that if a third party interferes in the operation of a sports federation, then that sports federation is likely to be be recognized by the international body, which will have ramifications to which in the National Sports Court of 2011, and I'm sure in the draft sports court of 2017 as well, there is clear clarification and I'm not meeting out loud, but I'm sort of paraphrasing here. So forgive me, but clear clarification that according to the laws of the land, which is the Union of India, listed in sort of in the union list, I think it's 10 and 13 on that list, that in fact, the government is in a position to oversee the operations of these national sports federation because for one, sports is a major part of international diplomacy. It's how we send our ambassadors, the logic on which the entire I think structure of the Indian Olympic movement is based, that we send our athletes as ambassadors of our country, our culture, et cetera, et cetera, to participate in and to promote the good things about what it is to be Indian. From that on on to then of course, various other aspects of the scenario. So clearly the government believes that it is right and especially because it provides funding of the BCCI may be an exception here, but to all other sports federation that provide a reasonable amount of their substance, whether it's operation costs, whether it's administrative costs, whether it's the cost of sending their athletes on training programs, all sorts of things. So obviously the government, the tax payers money, absolutely. So we should be bringing this to an end because we've been at it for a while and I think, by the way, I challenge everyone and maybe my job is not a job that anyone really wants, but if someone can explain this entire scenario. And you know, that explainer format is quite popular these days. They stick to everything in two or three minutes graphically and explain the whole story. But I think there will be only two graphics here. We won't talk about that in this program. But I'd like to close this by asking each of you for your last comments on what you think, firstly, why you are opposed to this unconstitutional behavior. And as maybe neutral observers, journalists, why do you think it's problematic beyond what we've already stated in terms of the negative impact on athletes and our performance at an international level? This is what is called sort of a kitchen table governance that is on an Indian sport. And we are now in the 21st century and it's time to abandon it and to basically trash it and put it in the dustbin. So we've seen that we've had more than 100 years to see, not 100, sorry, 70 years to see the consequences of kitchen table governance on our sport when the global sport has professionalized.  And just one thing very, very quickly, that there's also a case cited in the new or the old sports court might be in the 2011 one, which said that there's a judgment which said that nothing is above the law of the land, even if it's like an Olympic starter or whatever, it's not above the law of the land. So that will be established in law. And you'll find examples all over the world because sports governance all over the world, there'll be a little shady people in it. Okay, I'm stopping. All right, well, whichever one of you wants to go next. Nicholas Lee said whatever he has to say. So yeah, Siddharth mentioned about the sword dangling from the global body about when these things happen within the national set up of any sport for that matter. But the thing is that it's again, earlier I went downwards saying that this thing gets affected right till the grassroots as far as the internal fights happen. The same thing applies up there also. If Praful Patel is a council member in FIFA, so obviously action would be very reluctant. I mean, I'm just saying they might take action, but still there would be some kind of reluctance because that's how the electoral politics up there happen. So there is connections over there. So there, if you have noticed all the history of federations being diva or recognition taken out from the global body, it has all happened when there is a faction and that faction is favored by the global body. So it's as simple as that. And same thing applies here when there is a faction within the federation, the Indian Olympic Association favors one faction that is when infighting happens, breakup happen, court cases happen, at least get affected The main point, of course, we discussed all those implications here, but the main point is the idea of how to take Indian sport forward.  The same thing applies to sport, the sport associations or the representatives of the state association who come into elect the national body. They should have a stay every four years to decide whether this set of people ran the game properly or ran the show properly. And if it's not, the set of people should come in. And it's not about that either. Sometimes even a great administrator or a great group of administrators having run two years or eight years or whatever the stipulated tenure is, you will need fresh approach, fresh set of ideas to take things because it's a constantly evolving ecosystem you're talking about globally sport. It's not what it is today, two years from now. So it's a simple process. So to catch up with the time, you will need new people to come in, you will need fresh ideas. So these elections, beyond all the political gaming and all that, it's about getting the right people in place to take things forward. And if that's not happening, then we are actually, we are not even stagnant, we are bringing down things further. So it's a simple logic.  See, I think this threat of FIFA might take action against India is an empty threat. Because as far as I know, FIFA has a lot of respect for the law of the land. They don't consider this a third party. If I and Hugh had gone to the court, if one of the members have gone to the court, one of the officials had gone to the court, they would have immediately taken action. But since it is a supreme court decision, so they have a lot of respect for the law of the land of every country. Until something does happen, as it happened in Trinidad and Tobago, which was bizarre. So that is a different issue. But Indian situation is not bizarre. My only worry is that for the last 15, 20 years, all India Football Federation was one of the better governed federations in the country. But a group of people for their greed and to achieve their own gain and for their ambition, they might reduce to another Federation where a faction fight might start today or tomorrow or maybe sometime. That's what I feel. I'm not sure about what the faction fight will be because, as we all know, the Indian Super League is up and running and it's in full flow. I'm not saying there will be a faction fight, but it might ignite problems. That's what I see. Instead of the so-called happy family, it may not turn out to be a happy family because to make it a happy family, you have to keep everybody happy. One cannot think that only I will remain happy and it will still be a happy family. That's not done. That's what I mean. So this spreading happiness, in many ways, they try to do, right? For instance, dispersing of funds, policies, stadiums, matches, cricket, it happened. So I don't know about that. Resources and cricket is too much. But it's not in democracy. Football, you don't have so much of a fund also. Yeah, several of these concerns. In fact, we were having a chat. We were doing a weekly roundup of the ISL in which we were just talking about some of these things and it did come up that there's no opposition in principle to the ISL existing as a tournament or even as a private tournament or being governed the way it is governed. I mean, it should be for the clubs and the entities that are members of the ISL to decide how it's governed or not. But when you have a constitutional body, a society that is supposed to administer, like Sharda was mentioning earlier very categorically, about making the distinction between management and governance, between policy and actual day-to-day administration of what happened, that some of these issues come up because what we're saying now is that all of this is being like Things can be brushed aside. We look at all the, and we're going to have a chat with former India international, Ishwak Ahmed and Gormangi Singh in a little while from now where we'll be talking about some of the young players making an impact on the Indian Super League and of course they are. Those are the guys we're all sitting and watching every evening. But just because young players are coming into the system and doing well, does not equate to a thumbs up for the way the system is being structured and will continue to operate because we will see in the future that you will have a large number of these highly trained sort of elite level athletes who maybe spend some time on the bench, maybe get a contract for a year or two and then suddenly disappear. And meanwhile, where they are looking for, because like Jaydeep was mentioning just now, cricket may have a lot of resources and so on. But in other sports people are looking, even in cricket, people are looking for government jobs, people are looking for sports quota admissions to university to all kinds of things which help them actually survive and grow as human beings, not just as athletes. And that suffers, particularly when the government turns around and de-recognizes it, which makes it absolutely, you're saying that it's not a bizarre situation, Jaydeep sir, and you're not equating it with Naira and Tobago. But to me, it is bizarre that the Ministry of YouTube as in sports on the one hand has de-recognized the all-India football federation. And on the other hand, you know, the president of the AFF and the sports minister are standing on the same stage and making a joint bid for the AFC Asian Cup 2027. AFF has been given the recognition back because it came from Supreme Court. So many of the federation have gotten the recognition back. I have had this one of them. Till October 2021, I think they have got it. Till October, all right. Thank you for that important clarification. So fair enough, I suppose that then that makes sense. We will of course follow this. The BCCI AGM is a couple of days from now. I think it'll be all over the press, what happens there, how free the press is to report on what actually happens, how free, you know, members of that board are to speak about the goings on and how much they want to or not is a different matter. But thank you all for at least doing your jobs as responsible journalists and media people and for sharing that all of this wealth of information with everyone watching for and thank you to everyone who's tuned in for this conversation. I hope you stuck around for all of it. Please read Sharda's story on the Hindustan Times website and Jedeep's story on NewsClick and follow Leslie for continuous updates on all of the stuff that NewsClick is doing. We will have more for you, not just on the field but also what goes on around it. For now, that'll be all. Thank you very much. Have a good night.