Good afternoon, everybody, and welcome to this policy talks at the Ford School. I'm John Shorchiari, a faculty member here, and I'm pleased to welcome you to this event entitled From Rage to Reconciliation, Stories from the Israeli-Palestinian Conflict. Thank you to our co-sponsors, the University of Michigan's Democracy and Debate Initiative, and the Wiser Diplomacy Center, and to Katie Cole and Susanna Wisely for their work in setting up this event. Today, we're going to discuss a remarkable initiative to promote peace and reconciliation, one led by the Parent Circle Families Forum, an organization of Palestinian and Israeli families who have lost immediate family members in the conflict. Parent Circle members share a commitment to exchange feelings of rage and despair for activities to promote hope and reconciliation. That approach to peace and reconciliation is, of course, part of a larger conversation that also includes questions about history, identity, inequality, security, justice, and more. Questions that continue to weigh heavily on many of us across the University of Michigan and beyond. Just before this event, the Wiser Diplomacy Center held a gathering to provide an opportunity for students, faculty, and staff to come together for a warm-up conversation, and on Friday, we'll hold a democracy in cafe, again through UM's Democracy and Debate Initiative, looking at some of the historical origins of the conflict in the first half of the 20th century. Right now, we're honored to welcome two members of Parent Circle to hear their stories and to learn from the courageous and important work that they're doing. First, we'll hear from Laila al-Sheikh, who lives in Bethlehem in the West Bank. In 2002, her six-month-old son, Kusay, became ill, and Israeli soldiers prevented Laila from taking him to the hospital for more than five hours. Kusay soon died from the lack of timely treatment. Rather than thinking of revenge, Laila focused her time and energy on ensuring a better and more peaceful future for her children. She joined the Parent Circle in 2016. After Laila, we'll hear from Yigal el-Khanan, an Israeli who, when he was four years old, lost his sister, Smodar, killed a Palestinian suicide bombing in Jerusalem. Yigal is a member and activist in the Parent Circle Families Forum, and his father, Rami el-Khanan, previously served as the Israeli co-director of the organization. After Laila and Yigal speak, I'll pose some questions that came in from you, the audience, and your registration process, as well as a few questions of my own. To respectfully listen to Laila and Yigal's stories of bereavement, the live YouTube chat has been disabled for today's event. So now let me welcome Laila and Yigal to the Ford School and to this conversation. Thank you so much for inventing us, me and my friend Yigal, to share with you our experience and to talk a little bit about our organization and how much it's so unique, and maybe it's the only organization and the whole world didn't seek for new members because the price is so high, and it's for the people who lost their belongs. So my name is Laila Sheikh. I'm from Bethlehem in Palestine. I was born and raised in Jordan. My parents are originally from Bethlehem in 1967. My parents went to Jordan because my father went to teach the children in the camps in Jordan. After that the war was started in 1967, and the Israeli government closed the border and my parents lost their citizenship as Palestinian, and they stayed in Jordan. After that they become Jordanians. So me and my brothers and sisters were born in Jordan. My childhood was so normal, maybe the unique thing that my father was always talking about Palestine, about the places that he was going to, and about his friends, his family members who stay in Palestine, and I loved my father so much and I was dreaming all my life to to come back and live in the same places or even visited. So I finished my study in the camp business, and after that I met my husband in Jordan. He came for a visit and his originally from Bethlehem. In 1999 I came to Bethlehem to get married, and for me it was really a dream come true to come back and live in Bethlehem and went to all the places that my father was speaking about and to visit all his friends, all his family members. The first year was amazing. I love everything, every place, try to visit all the places in Palestine. This year we have our second daughter, we met her and we were so happy to have our own family. After two months, unfortunately, the second uprising was started and I was really totally afraid because it was the first time I lived in a situation like that. And at that time the Israeli government took a decision not to give the people who came from Jordan or other country of Palestinian ideas. So that meant that most of the time I should stay at home, couldn't go freely from place to place. But at that time I wasn't caring much because I have my husband and my daughter to take care of. And I just hope this will end so soon, but unfortunately it will become worse and worse every day. The second year we have our second child. He was a boy, named Hamasawi. He was very intelligent, beautiful boy and our happiness become much more because our families start to become bigger and I will be busy with my family here until I could see my family in Jordan. But this happiness was ended 11th of April 2002, four o'clock in the morning. Mokosa was woke up in very critical condition because one day before the Israeli soldiers came to our village, they threw tear gas and he smelled some of it. At that time the treatment wasn't good enough in my village. So we tried to take him to a hospital inside Bethlehem. But we faced an Israeli cheek point. They prevented us from taking him to the hospital and they said you can't enter, it's a military zone. So the next chance was to take him to Hebron, the next city to Bethlehem. But again they told us that the main roads closed. So the only chance we have after that to take him to Hebron, but we should like take a long and rough road and that will take much more time. But it was the only chance that we had. Then my father-in-law told them that our son inverted go condition and he should be in a hospital. But they didn't listen to him and they asked him to stay in the car until they lost to move. At that time my son was between my arms. He was dying. I started to think what should I do to save his life. So I was thinking to take a risk and talk to them and that risk that if they find I didn't have my Palestinian ID, maybe they will take me to jail or send me back to Jordan and I will never see my children again. But for me at that time I wasn't care about myself. I would just think about my son and how could I save him. So I went to them, start to talk to them in English, start to explain for them that he should be in a hospital as soon as possible. Then they start to laugh at me and they asked me to stay in the car. They stopped us more than five hours until they said yeah you can now move. So when we reached the hospital the doctor said that if he will stay alive after 48 hours he will be handicapped. So the two choices was so hard even to to leave or imagine. I start to cry. I fall down on the ground, didn't know what to do. It's the first time I feel hopeless, couldn't save my son, couldn't do anything for him. A few minutes later they take him to the intensive unit care and they didn't even let us enter that room. Two o'clock in the evening the doctor came and he said to us you should leave the hospital because as he said the soldiers will come and search the hospital. They said that the fighters, the Palestinian fighters came and hide inside the hospital and they will ask you to leave because your son is inside the intensive unit care. So it was a very complicated situation. We argued with him and then he said please leave. I don't want to have problems inside the hospital. So we left and that was so hard for me. How could I leave my son alone there without anyone beside him? But we didn't have anything to do. In the evening when we reached the house I immediately went to the house of my parents-in-law because at that time he wasn't having cell phones like today. So I called the doctor and he started to explain his situation and how he was when he arrived and I started to understand that he tried to tell me something but inside of me I didn't want to believe what he's talking about. So my husband came and he said what happened actually I don't understand what he's talking about. Please talk to him but let the speaker on I want to hear him. So he he read the same words and then I start to shatter him and ask him what's going on what's happened to my son and then he said I'm so sorry your son died. At that moment I felt that his word was like a bullet comes to my heart smashing down for many pieces. I start to cry screaming like a crazy. A few minutes later the house was full of people, relatives, friends, neighbors. But for me I wasn't care about any one of them the only thing that I was care about and think about is my son and then I start to convince myself when we go back home I slept in the car and this is dream and tomorrow I will go back to the hospital bring him back home and he will be in a good health but unfortunately that was the truth and that was maybe the longest night I've ever had in my whole life. I will speak about a dream I have that night and then we'll explain it. I was so tired and I put my back to the wall maybe for five minutes then I have a dream that there's a white dove came and said in my shoulder and said to me mama don't cry I'm so happy but since that time until now I couldn't stop crying because he's part of my soul part of my heart and I always feel that there is something missing inside of me. Next day when they bring him back to say good bye for him until the moment that they put him between my arms I was still believed that he's alive and they're lying for some reason so I missed him so much because that was maybe the first time we were separated so I was missing so much I immediately take the blanket off and I was shocked when I saw him he was very blue I tried to kiss him in his cheek as I always do when I hold him but that moment it was totally different because I felt that I am a case of frozen rock I hug him so tight because I was thinking maybe some kind of miracle will happen and maybe he will go back to life but the only thing that happened that they take him away from me and that was the last moment I hold him from that moment our life changed and everything become different from that moment I was felt of hatred anger against all the Israeli people because for me all of them responsible about his death yeah I didn't take revenge but at the same time I was taking another decision that I don't want to have any kind of relationship with any Israeli person because I was always like thinking about something and said when the Israeli killed a Palestinian or they take him to jail they said that he threw stones against us or he is a sniper or he is a terrorist but my son he was just six months old what is the crime that he was done and then I answer myself and say the only thing the only crime that he had that he is a Palestinian so more than 16 years I was really refused to have any kind of relationship with any Israeli person until one day one of my friend he called me and he started to talk about live children and then he started to talk me about the Baron Circle Family Forum and how he participated in one of the projects and I stopped him and said to him are you crazy I am the last person that you could talk to him about something like that and he said to me I just want to ask you a question why until now you didn't tell your other children about what happened to your brother to their brother I said to him because I didn't want them to be part of the circle of violence because maybe since they know what happened maybe they will think to take revenge and I lost one of them and that was too much for me I didn't want to lose any of them and then he said maybe this will be a good chance not just to protect your children maybe to protect the other families in the beginning I was on truly so come yeah like believe what he's talking about and I say maybe he's crazy I didn't know that there's something like that happened here until one day he invited me to come for us and met with him in the beginning I was refused then he was incest and I went to that conference just to make him stop calling me in the beginning there were just Palestinian I sat with them we are talking about a lot of things five minutes later the Israeli start to enter that room and then I would stand up try to leave because I start to feel there's something acne in my chest I don't want to see them I don't want to be with them in the same place and then my friend said to me please sit down listen to them and after that I will never argue with you about anything since we were talking I saw something amazing I saw both sides hugging each other love it like they are not just friend they look like family members and then I sit down I said to my friend I want to really sit and I want to listen just to know what the thing that make them so close to each other like that so when there's really start to talk about their personal stories I was really amazed because that was the first time I heard something like that and for the first time I looked at them as human like me we share the same pain we share the same tears there's many common things between us it's the first time I didn't look to them and as an enemy from me so from that moment I decided to participate one of the project in the forum called barrel narrative project to know much more about the Israelis and about everything about their life and this project is about to bring 15 people from both sides for most of them it's the first time sit face to face and speak about a lot of things have many activities they said for eight times during this meeting we have two professors from both sides Palestinian and Israeli they talk about the history of the two nations we visit the Yad Vashem museum and speak about the Holocaust because for most of the Palestinian there they think that the Holocaust is fake and the Israeli government fake that because they want to like give themselves executions about what they're doing to the Palestinian and even we went to visit a village called Lifta it was existed before 1948 to tell them and to show them about the Palestinian and what happened to them after and before that and at the end of that project we have a common or another project to continue our visiting and meetings and at the end of that project we decided as a Palestinian to learn Hebrew and the police the Israelis start to learn Arabic so I returned back in the beginning and speak about the first activity they asked us about or to talk about something having during the conflict effect our life so it was the first time I speak about my my son and what happened to him and it was the first time I spoke about him after his death it was like to open the one again bring everything back the memories being the anger I couldn't complete the story and the middle of it start to cry and there were an Israeli woman came and she sat in front of me and she started to cry and when I asked her why why you are doing this and she said yeah I didn't hurt you but I know the other people who hurt you from my own people and I'm a mother too I could understand your pain I could understand the word that you couldn't say and you save it in your mind I am I'm a mother too and I'm really trying to protect my daughter all these years that I don't want to lose her and she came and hugged me and she started to cry and I was really touched by her word because it was the first time someone spoke to me like that and someone could understand really and feel the pain that I have so I felt that her word was like light comes from deep and dark place like my heart again and my mind again from that moment I decided to become a member in the forum start to give lecture inside Israel Palestine around the world to spread the message of peace and reconciliation and during that journey I learned a lot of things about the Israelis and even about myself and I have a chance to rethink about forgiveness and some people think that when we say forgiveness that we mean that we forget but forgiveness for me is to both the hatred the anger away and continue my life because when we felt of hatred and anger that covers our eyes and mind and even our heart didn't let us think clearly like when I told you about the dream that I have like a white dove my son came and talked to me at that time I was going to understand what that dream about but after I become a beast activist I start to understand that the white dove as you know is kind of simple for peace and God want me to be in this field because God didn't want his death go without any reason like he want to continue and for me to continue what's happened and to try to protect not just my family members and even other families other children a sense of that I start even to realize it's so easy to talk to people about peace or consolation all this lovely word but the most important thing to feel from inside because we're not expert in this field but when we start to to talk from our own heart that will give us power to continue and try to convince the other people that we still have chance to live side by side like me and Yigal when we stand up together and we talk about person sorry about our pain this is a message for the whole world that if we the people who lost our beloved ones could sit stand or sit side by side and speak about our pain and start to look to each other as people as human and forget that what happened before and continue to make the future much brighter and much better for our children and our grandchildren and I thank God that I have now many Israeli friends and some of them they become maybe closer to me than my family members and one of them Ramil Hanan he's the father of Yigal I really felt he's like a brother for me and even Yigal he's an amazing person and maybe I could now give him a chance to speak about his personal story and thank you so much for listening and thank you for your time thank you very very very much Laila I listen to Laila's story for numerous times now and every time it's very difficult to regroup myself in order to tell my own because there's something very very difficult thank you for sharing it as Laila said we are the only organization in the world that doesn't want any new members and to add to that we are probably the only organization in the world that is bringing together victims and preparators in an ongoing conflict to come and engage together and speak in a peaceful way in order to co-resist the political situation that they live in there was not such an organization during the English occupation of Ireland I haven't heard of such organizations in Wanda or any in any other of the many many unfortunately conflict this world has seen I'm an active member of the parent circle for the past almost you can say 23 years now since I was 5 years old or 7 years old and even more so after 2014 I was born in West Jerusalem on the 6th of September 1992 to an all Israeli family I don't remember any you know strong political convictions at our house at the time my brother served the army I went to kindergarten maybe the most intense activity related to the conflict that I was engaging on at the time and was building settlements in the sandbox of my kindergarten and life went on as normally as they can and I specified West Jerusalem because besides the political boundaries it also means who are the people that I can meet during the day who are the people that they can grow up with who can be my friends what languages I hear and the reality in Jerusalem is that the city is completely segregated and I'm not using this word easily or lightheadedly in Jerusalem you have almost a million people that live in it divides roughly between 600 000 Jews and 400 000 Palestinian but those two sides never meet for me growing up where I grew up Palestinians were only up to a certain point maybe the people that are working in the construction sites near my home maybe the people that they can see going around the city center speaking this weird language I cannot understand practicing this religion I don't know anything about that reality changed completely in the 4th of September 1997 two days before my sixth birthday before my fifth birthday sorry in which at that date four girls from the Geminasia Ivoret High School in the city center of Jerusalem left in the middle of the school day I went to the city center they told their parents are going to buy textbooks for the beginning of the new school year probably they planned to go off and do something a little bit more fun than that when you're skipping school and you're 14 but they didn't get the chance to because together with them approximately the same time three very desperate very hopeless probably vengeful as the statistics teach us Palestinians from a refugee camp near the city of Nablus wearing to their bodies the tenation belts and and holding grenades came to the same place that they were in the four girls the Ben Yehuda Promenade in the city center of Jerusalem at then ending two o'clock in the afternoon those Palestinians blew themselves up together with five Israeli civilians. Yael Botwin was killed instantly, Sivan Zarka also 14 was killed instantly Daniela Birman is still rehabilitating from a very severe brain injury 25 almost years later additional young Israeli man was killed and my sister my older sister Smedar El-Khanan died instantly from a shrapnel of the bomb that hit her the back of the head now it was not a word or a term or a phrase or a sentence that I know in Hebrew English or Arabic that can take that feeling what happens to a family that the loved one is violently ripped out from it what happens but I will try because this is why we are here I would like you to imagine a body that is all of a sudden missing an essential organ or limb something that you will always feel its absence and that will never grow back now I was a very young boy when my sister was killed was five year old they still remember some and it was very close to my birthday so I thought that all the people that came to our household for the Shiba the Jewish seven days of mourning were coming because I had the birthday and I didn't really understand what happened to Smedar later I came to understand that as the time went on and she didn't come and she didn't come and she didn't come but she will never come back home and I grew up very angry I grew up very angry on this wheel political situation I grew up very angry that my parents decided two years after the bombing to join the parent circle and to become a activist towards the end of the Israeli occupation and to the forging or making the just peace in Israel and Palestine and most of all I was angry because I couldn't understand how could they take this experience this personal experience that I perceived as completely personal not connected to anything at all and share it with complete strangers like I'm doing here today because I thought that what happened to us happened to us and my sister is my sister Smedar is is our what happened to us our trauma is our catastrophe as we used to call it and it's no one else's business that kind of change when I reached the age of 14 the age that Smedar was when she was killed and I started asking myself a lot of questions some questions were better than others but one of the good questions that I was asking myself was I started to I wanted to really know why what happened and why did happen now and what why did happen at the time sorry and why did happen to us and why did happen in Jerusalem and what is the what is the issue here and then I came to a realization that is following me with my work to this day and with all of the parent circles work as well and that this is not a god-given situation what happened to us is the reality of a political situation and the and the core and the cause of decisions and choices made by men and women and that have some kind of political gain and from the situation I came to realize that sometime before the suicide bombing that K the kids mother and without with disregarding the advice of all the security branch Benjamin Netanyahu which was in his first time in office during between the at the time of the bombing opened the Kotel town the Kotel tunnels that go underneath the western wall underneath the laksa compound and that ignited the region because this is one of the most sensitive places in the world and the most sensitive place here and if the region will be ignited again as we see now ongoing clashes between Israeli police and young Palestinian men that realization followed me and I started joining the youth activities at the parent circle first as a participant and then later on as a guide we hold every summer summer camp for believed Israeli and Palestinian children and two years ago I was running it with my brother and colleague Arab Arameen who is also a member of the parent circle and all of a sudden those Palestinians that were completely foreign to me that were completely that I have had nothing to do with them although we lived in the same city and started having faces started having names started having stories and all of a sudden I realized that this reality that we are taking for granted that is happening on and on and on for many years can change and break completely as the barriers between us break completely in one encounter between Israeli and Palestinian bereaved children and this is something that followed me through the years and since since 2014 I rejoined the parent circle as an active member speaking to whoever wants to listen to us and saying a very very clear message and this is how I feel the message should be said and we are living in a country that for the past 70 years one side is occupying the other we are living in a country that for 70 years resentment and violence and inequality is breeding hatred and violence and inequality and for us as people who paid the highest price and you've listened to Lila's story I can't imagine a higher price a person can pay in that reality for us the people that paid that price we're coming to say enough and enough is enough for the past seven decades you're taking us as hostages in this reality and we're saying we're not hostages we're taking responsibility for our future for the future of our families and we're telling you to stop the occupation start sitting down and create peace to whoever it's in their power to make that a wish come true and thank you very much for listening thank you both very much for sharing your your powerful very personal testimonies with us we're just very grateful for what you're doing and and I'd now like to use the remainder of our time to share some questions with you some of my own and some from our viewers and the first question that I have is something that was raised in both of your or your remarks which is the possibility that some members of your own family or your own community won't agree with the approach that you're taking Lila for example when you were first approached you asked someone are you crazy why on earth would would I would I do that and and you go when you were young wondering why would your parents go and engage with with others on the other side of this conflict as you then saw it I wonder if each of you could comment a little bit about what kinds of of concern or even criticism that you faced from within your own families or communities and how you have responded to that for me at the beginning when my husband and my family law they know that I will join the Baron Circle they really agree and they encouraged me because after the death of my son I even have health problems because I always feel sad and angry and that effect in our life so much and most of the time I was really how could I say that nervous but when they when they know that I joined the Baron Circle they start to to see the transformation that started to happen to me and they start to to see that I become a new person and like I go start to go back to my reality and to the old Lila that it was before the death of my son but at the same time I have my family in Jordan who were against that like my father he was because he was one of the first fighters in for the organization in the beginnings this organization is the first organization against the occupation but after time my father stopped being fighter and he decided to be to be a teacher for their refugees I will tell you maybe a short story before three years when I tried to went to Italy with the forum to a conference there I went to see my sorry I want to see my family and then I said with my father and he started to say you shouldn't be with them they start all enemies and all their words so I told him I want to ask you two questions you know that my son was died do you know the story and he said no I told him you know that I stay in Bethlehem for 11 years couldn't come to see you do you know what happened to my life during this 11 years and he said no I'll tell him how could you judge me how could you ask me to do something or not to do this is the life this is my life and I'm the only one who are responsible about it I'm the only one who should take this how could I say it decisions or choose the way that I want to live and he was really shocked because it was the first time I spoke to him like that and I was really shocked because I I get that power from the bane like we said in in arabic that the things that didn't break it down make you stronger and at that point just I find that really I become or I have that strength to continue and to to to believe that I do a great work not just to save my sons or my children even to to save other people other family and even maybe this this experience it's not just about the conflict here between the Arabs and the Jew maybe this will help other people in other countries around the world and that's right we we really help a lot of people they learn a lot of our from our experience have to sit face to face try to solve their problems or their conflict so this is not just about the conflict here thank you I must say that first of all in my family in my close family my parents are very active and against occupation and towards peace and both my brothers are as well and my friends I choose them carefully so they're also okay with that but I can say and this is something that is important to hear and it's a worldwide process it's not only here in the Jewish Israeli society we are going through a very very very intense process of becoming a more xenophobic close-minded violent society and we could see this you know the parent circle uses and I'm saying uses in the in the utmost pride in in the political genius in my eyes and the status of bereaved families in both Palestinian and Jewish Israeli society the families of those who have lost who have sacrificed on the both in the Israeli side and the Palestinian side are being held in a very very high regard and we are taking this reality that is for us just like Lila said you know who are you to tell me not to talk about my sister and to use that pain that is burning up inside me and inside all of my family and to tell you to stop being such a crazy person to start living to start realizing what can happen here and this is something that we are doing in front of every audience that would listen to us that being said you can say that since you know realities here has been problematic for the past 70 years but since 2014 at least regarding Jewish societies becoming more and more difficult to voice those messages in the mainstream public not just now the Kahanist which is the version of Jewish religious supremacy MK member member of Knesset Itamar Ben Gavir has decided to mark the parent circle as an enemy for the I don't know for what for the Jewish people or whatever and he started making demonstrations outside of schools and many of the schools and the places that we speak speaking are being targeted from the far right as something that you know you cannot talk to them they talk to terrorists they talk to families of terrorists regardless to that that they do not enter to you know any member of the parent any person that is that gave up violence and that wishes to come into this journey together is very very very welcome and it signals some kind of the process that you know 20 years ago messages like those of the far right against us would not be accepted in public now they are accepted and celebrated and that you know the liquid party that was in power a few months ago are the ones that brought it inside and the liquid party is a very broad party it represents many many many many many many Israeli and this is a style you know it's a process that we see it's it's results now in the Ukraine we see it in Hungary we see it in Poland we see we saw it in the States maybe we'll see it again but it won't let us you know it won't bring us down thank you thank you for that another theme that was very powerful in both of your remarks was the importance of humanizing other people Leila when the Jewish woman comforted you in tears and said she understood as a mother what you had experienced you go when you were a teenager and you started to see Palestinians as having faces not just as being workers who you saw at a distance that seems to be such a transformative part of your personal experiences and the and the broader process of reconciliation you're pursuing I wonder if each of you could comment on initiatives approaches that you've seen both within but also outside of parent circle that are conducive to mutual humanization things like school programs educational and cultural exchanges others ways of getting Palestinians and Israelis to have those types of interactions maybe maybe I will tell you a short story one day when when they asked me and on the forum to go to speak to a group of girls who would go to to the army at the age of 17 and 18 it was in the beginning of my journey with the forum and I was really so afraid how could I like connect with them and they will go to the army and I was not sleep the whole night because I was think how could I talk to them so I decided just to go there and to tell my story without um have any like thinking about any other things so when I went there and I saw them at that time they are at the same age of my oldest daughter so I said oh I will now start to to have the key and know how to talk to them so when I said and speak about my personal story and with my partner and after that we speak about the forum and the projects and they start to ask us and there was a girl she came and asked me so what do you want from us not to go to the army and I stopped talking just for one minute and I said to her look I love my daughter so much and I want her to be the best person maybe in this world but at the same time I couldn't control her life but I could like give her advice and this is what I will do with you I I really love you so much and I really look to you as the same way as I look to my daughter and I will give you uh like advice if you will go to the army and I know this is your country and you should serve it please just look to the people who are at the same uh or in front of you don't look like to their color don't look to their religion don't look to their background just look to them as a human like you and if we will start with these symbols things this is will change the whole conflict if everyone of us start with his own self like I will start from my own house and you as a girl who will go and be in the cheek point like an example everyone start to do a simple things this will we will have the big change in our community we are forbidden to go to talk to children at school because for the Palestinian government it's like brainwash so we could meet them in the houses in other places we try to to do our past because as maybe I said before sometimes when you fail to anger and pain you can't think right in the right way so we we have like chances yes it's a small chances maybe when other people look at it but we as Rami the father of the girl said we start to both the cracks on the wall to to to make this wall like go away without coming back to make the peace between two of our nations because no one will will kill the others like the Palestinian will never throw the the Jew in the the sea and stay alone here and the Jew will never through us in the sea and they will take the whole country so we should like find a solution to live side by side thinking um I'll continue from where Laila left off um Jews and Palestinians in this country living together much much much much longer in time period and then we are at war with one and this is something that is very important to remember this hostility between us and you know I'm not I'm not trying to paint the pink past or disregarding the very obvious political historical realities that happened during this 100 years but to put things in proportion we got along for much longer than we did this is for first of all since the beginning of the conflict over the two patients 70 years ago um there was hostility and at the same time there were adventures and initiatives and people that did everything that they can in order to bring those two people together so a parallel a parallel post this voice that we voice as unique as it is is leaning on a very rich and powerful history of Jews and Palestinians working together to create a better future um for ourselves besides us we are the only organization that dealing and being run and its members are the family but besides us there are many organizations um that try and create some kind of better reality here between the Jordan river and to see whether it's combatants for peace that I was involved in in the past and I think Laila is still involved in still involved with uh today uh combatants for peace and standing together and you know many many many many many many many organizations and different people that make it their life's work both Jews and Palestinians to bring those messages of joint resistance and you can see that many of those people that are in those organizations that are active in this kind of work that have this story of uh you know some kind of reckoning it doesn't happen at once it doesn't happen one by day it's a process that that for in a in a certain time they see that what they thought about this place and how they perceived the reality in this place was a bit wrong and for some fundamentally wrong and from there you start you start building yourself and you start building your identity around that you know now as I grew up in um segregated Jerusalem without knowing any Palestinian but today I have Palestinian brothers I have Palestinian sisters I have Palestinian friends um I'm making it making the very you know trying my best to learn Arabic and to master it completely and this is a process that you do uh together with yourself and um I feel I don't have the statistics for it but I feel that more and more people are starting to lean towards that uh realization because there is no other way like I said we won't wake up one morning you know and the Palestinians would vanish Palestinians won't wake up one morning and the Jews will vanish from this country we are kind of stuck here together and whether it will take 100 years or 200 years or 300 years as we unfortunately know uh other conflicts in the world took their time to solve themselves um it will happen here as well the question is what is the amount of blood that both sides need to pay before we will solve this and we are as the people who paid this price in blood coming to say it's it's not worth it thank you very much uh Yigal and Lila um we're at the top of the hour now and we want to be mindful of your time in the evening and so that will bring us to a conclusion for the conversation but we just want to say how inspired we are by both your example and by your organization the effort that you're leading to to promote a more positive future uh in this challenging environment so we thank you for joining us audience members we thank you for attending and as I mentioned at the outset please stay tuned for more events as we discuss Israeli-Palestinian issues at the University of Michigan going forward thank you everybody and you have a great day thank you very much thank you


Income tax 2023-2024. Capital gain or loss tax software example.  First a word from our sponsor.  Like our trust me I'm an accountant product line. Yeah it's paramount that you let people know that you're an accountant because apparently we're among the only ones equipped with the number crunching skills to answer society's current deep complex and nuanced questions. If you would like a commercial free experience consider subscribing to our website at accountinginstruction.com or accountinginstruction.thinkific.com. Here we are in our form 1040 example problem using Lassert tax software. You don't need tax software to follow along but it's a great tool to run scenarios with. You can also get access to forms, schedules, reports, instructions at the IRS website irs.gov irs.gov starting at our normal starting point with our taxpayer Adam tax man just trying to avoid a dang tax man living in Beverly Hills 90210. We have a single file or to start off with no dependence starting with W-2 income of the nice round 100,000 to start off with standard deduction 13850 resulting in taxable income 86150 we can see that as well in our income tax formula in Excel 100,000 13850 given the taxable income 86150 the tax calculated 14266 to start off with we go back on over to the software that's on page two the 14266. All right let's go back to page one. Our point of focus is online number seven. I'm gonna put a little check by it. That's where we have the capital gain or loss where we would attach the schedule D. Now many things that you sell might qualify for capital gains type rules. However for individual income taxpayers were usually thinking about sales of say stocks bonds that are sold on a stock exchange or possibly mutual funds or ETFs which are basically compiling money together and purchasing stocks and bonds usually which are traded on some type of stock exchange. That means that we're usually going to receive documentation like this where we have the 1099B. If there's any questions about this data input form in terms of any of the sales within it we can typically go to the IRS and look at the IRS website and look for the instructions for the 1099B which will provide further detail. Now also just realize when we think about the investments in stocks and bonds we might be putting investments in stocks and bonds that are not underneath the umbrella of something like a retirement account or some other kind of tax structure that has tax benefits and restrictions related to them and we might have some investments that are under those umbrellas resulting in different tax implications. They're both using the same investment tools which are typically invested through financial institutions. So for example if you have a 401k plan on IRA or something like that you're still going to be investing typically in stocks and bonds but under the umbrella of this IRA or 401k plan which actually restricts you from taking the money out because you could be penalized but also gives you tax benefit which means that the growth in the funds might be tax-free and you might have a tax benefit when you put the money in. Now typically you're not going to have reporting of income of the items that are underneath the umbrella of a retirement account because you're not usually selling those items and the income related to dividends and interest are typically possibly deferred until the point in time that you take the money out. If you have stocks and bonds that are invested outside of the umbrella of an IRA or some other type of tax-favored account which many people will because you're going to want to have some money that you can get a hold of at least fairly shortly and so you might invest in stocks and bonds that are outside of the umbrella that is when you if you buy and sell those stocks then you could have the capital gain situation. So note that when you invest in stock or bonds the idea would be that you can get paid through interest in which case the financial institution would give you a 1099 INT unless it's under the umbrella possibly of some type of retirement account. You might have dividend income which is the company giving money out that they have earned in the form of dividends similar to a draw to the owners the shareholders in which case you would get a 1099 div or you might have the stock go up in value and then sell the stock in which case you would have income in the form of capital gains capital gains being the most complicated to report on our tax return because we have to realize the gain amount not the sales price. So the sales price will be easy but the basis what we bought it for or the adjusted basis sometimes will be complex to determine and and we're going to need that in order to calculate the capital gains. So what's on this form we've got the description of the property also note that this form might look a little bit different because when you get this information from a financial institution they might be reporting all of these things so you might get a 1099 dividend a 1099 interest and 1099 B from one institution because that's where all your investment financial information is. So it should mark though that this is the 1099 B part of it and the box numbers should be the same therefore if you have any questions about the boxes on the form you can go to the IRS website look at the instructions for the form 1099 B and get further information there. Alright so we have the description of the property this could be problematic the description of the property because you might have sold a bunch of different stocks if you're working with like a day trader or something like that in which case you're going to need a whole another schedule breaking out the description of the property but most of the time they will be able to break it out between short term sales and long term sales which are the major two categories that have a tax implication and then you might be able to attach the sub schedules possibly as an addendum to the return to give them more information. Alright so the date acquired this is often a difficult date to come up with because they're getting better and better at it but you might have bought it a way long time ago at a different financial institution and so it's going to be it could be difficult to get the date acquired on it. It also could have stock splits and stock dividends and all that kind of stuff which makes the date acquired a little bit tricky. The date sold is easy because you sold it in 2023 in this case fairly recently so we know that date and the financial institution should be able to get that correct. The proceeds the amount that you sold it for that should be easy that should be correct the financial institute should have that the key part the cost or basis the institutions are getting better at reporting a cost or basis but there are many situations where that can still be quite complex because like I say you might have you might have the stocks before the current financial institution was there you might have stocks and there are stock splits or stock dividends resulting in a change to the basis of the stocks that you have even though you didn't buy more stocks you might have inherited some stocks so there are many times with where this component is a little bit tricky to come up with. So a crude method discount so a crude method discount wash sale loss disallowed so I'm not going to go over each one of these items we're going to touch on a few of them if you have questions about any of these line items you can go to the instructions for more detail short term gain or loss long term gain or loss most of the time the financial institutions will be able to break out if it's short term meaning you sold it within less of a year of purchase versus long term those have the significant tax implications of either favorable tax rates capital gains rates versus the ordinary income rates. Check if proceeds from collectibles or QOFs there could be different circumstances for collectibles such as jewelry and whatnot federal income tax withheld typically you're not going to have withholdings from the sale of of stocks but if they sold a lot of stocks and they think that it's going to have an impact on their on their taxes that they owe they might have withholdings on the stocks or you might need to change your withholdings for your W2 income or on your other distributions from like IRS or 401k plans or make estimated tax payments to make sure that you're up to date on the withholdings. Check if non covered IRS to report to IRS gross proceeds net proceeds. Now so you might be thinking what are the proceeds are they including are they are they gross or net of the cost or basis to usually going to be gross of the cost or basis and then are there going to be any expenses that of the trade are they gross or net of the expenses of the trade that were taking place. Check if loss is not allowed based on a mountain line 1a profit realized unrealized profit on open contracts to check if the IRS reported to the IRS and then bartering and then you got your state information. So the major stuff is right up top here description date acquired cost or basis and the date sold. Okay so we're looking here let's go into the data input and just add one and see how it works. So we're going to go and say that we have income. It's going to be a distribution. So we'll say distribution schedule D and I'm just going to say it's from stocks. So we'll say this is you know 10 shares of stock a generic and we're going to say it's long term. That's going to be the most common to start off with. So let's say it was purchased 0 1 0 1 2 0. So it's over a year old and then the date sold sometime in the current period 0 6 30 2 3 and the sales price we would get that from our 10 99 be hopefully let's say we sold it for 10. Let's say we sold it for 12,000 and the cost or basis what we purchased it for or the adjusted costs 2000. And so then we're going to keep it at that and then if there were expenses that were not included then that's when you might have the expense item here but I'm going to keep it at this for now. Let's pull that over and then if I scroll down we can see here that we have then the 10,000 that pulled into line number 7 and then we have the schedule D that has now appeared where we have the capital gains and losses part one of the schedule D is the short term capital gains and losses where we have the proceeds the cost and then the gains and losses hours was long term. So therefore we're looking at part number 2 here are our proceeds of the 12,000 the cost of 2000 gives us the 10,000 of the gain that is pulling over to page one. Now note that form 8 9 49 is not being populated in the software in general because the IRS has the information basically from the 10 99 be that has been included. So we didn't have any and so we'll take a look at a situation that has the form 8 9 49 included shortly. But we can see that we have the long term capital gain that pulled into the form 10 40. So that increases our income to 110 and then we've got the 13 8 50 same standard deduction gets us to the 96 150 page to calculate in the tax. But the tax gets more complicated now because we're going to have the favorable tax rates for the long term capital gains. You can see you have a much more complex scenario with regards to the tax calculate calculation other than just the progressive tax rates and it's trying to give a more favorable tax rate to the income item here. So this is where it gets confusing because we typically rely on the software to do the tax calculation and we have to be aware that this 10,000 being long term capital gains is providing a tax benefit because it's being taxed at rates lower than ordinary income, which we can't see unless we actually drill down on the tax calculations here. So let's see it in our Excel worksheet just to analyze it a little bit there as well. So I'm going to add another schedule. Let's call it schedule D. So I'm going to add another schedule and it's going to say plus double click schedule D. And then I'm going to click on the whole thing. Right click format ourselves, make it currency negative numbers bracketed, no dollar sign, no decimals. Okay, I'll make this larger. And I'm just going to make two broad categories, long term capital gains. And in which case we're going to have let's say the date, the proceeds, the basis or costs. And that's going to be the gain or loss. These are my headers.  Let's go up top home tab. Nope, not file. Where am I going? And we're going to go to do font group. Let's make it black and white. And then maybe wrap this one. Let's wrap that one. And let's make this centered. And then the date area, I'm going to make home tab numbers, make it a date short date thing. And then I'm going to say, I should have to date. Well, let's say date. Actually, let's just not put the date. I'll just say generically, that these are going to be a long term. Let's put a description instead of a date. Let's put description. Descript. Chun boom. So I'm going to say this was stock one or a I called it 12,000. And we purchased it 12,000 for 10,000. Therefore, proceeds minus basis is 2000. And that's what we have. I'm going to select the whole thing, home tab font group, put some bold to it. And then we might have multiple items here. So I'm going to select a few cells, home tab font group, put some brackets around it. I'm going to make it blue. And then I'm going to copy this same thing for short term. I'll put the long term first because I think it's more common. And then short term capital gain. And I should put loss or loss. And then I'll delete this and then capital gain or loss. And then I'm going to say this will be the total. Let's add one more here. And then I'm going to format it like the one below it, or clear formatting. And then I'm going to say this will be a total long term capital gains loss or loss. And I'll sum this up outside here. And this side is going to be a copy of this. This pasted here. And I'll say this is the total short term, short term. And then I have the total capital gains loss will be the sum of those two. Okay, so I know I did that kind of messily. But I don't want to spend too much time on Excel. But the bottom line is we recalculated it kind of double checked it here. And I'm going to pull that let's do a review on the spell check while I'm here. Wow, is that can't be right? It got all right. Let's go back to our first tab. I'm going to double click on the income line, go to the end of it and say we're going to say plus. Now this is including stuff from this sheet, the income, the schedule one, the schedule C and now the schedule D. The bottom line of the schedule D is going to feed in here to our income and something went wrong with the schedule D. I wanted to be 2000 basis. So that we have 10,000 of income, which pulls into here 110,000 13,850. Now is the calculation. Now before we had income of this was 14266. We have taxable income 96150. This was the tax. What is what is will cert calculate the tax to be now 15766 after that change? So 15766. So the difference in the tax because of that gain is 1500. So so we're gonna say okay and what we had we had a gain of 10,000. So what's the percent this divided by this? Well, hold on a sec. This divided by this is the percent that they applied to that $10,000 change, which is 15%, which is favorable, right? Because if I go back on over here and look at my tax summary, my highest tax rate is 22%. So we got a favorable tax rate. So that's what I mean like it's it's not as easy to see unless you kind of look into the tax calculation, which which is usually we're dependent on the computer to a large degree to calculate. But the fact that there's a different capital gains rate could lead to myriad a myriad different kind of tax planning concepts and strategies to try to get you know, more advantage of the lower tax rate rather than the ordinary income tax rate. Alright, so let's contrast that to like to a situation where I would have to have a form 8, 9, 4, 9. So let's go back on over and let's pretend that the expenses were not included in in the in in the sales price. So therefore, we had the expenses of the transaction. I'm going to put a 20 here. And that's going to complicate the transaction a bit. So if I go back on over to my forms, now you can see that we have the form 8, 9, 4, 9 has populated, because now you've got the 12,000 the 2000. And then we had to populate this amount this adjustment of the $20, which results in the 9,009 850. So now we have something that basically isn't on the on the 1099 that the IRS has. And that's why we have to basically have this other reporting form so that we can show the detail of that transaction, which then pulls into the schedule D. So there's the information on the schedule D. And then of course that pulls in to the 1040. Alright, we've seen that scenario. Let's go back and let's delete that again. And let's contrast this to a short term. So we had a long term. And let's say we also had some stocks, let's say 20 stocks of stock B that were short term sales. So let's say we purchased them in 2023, 010123. And we sold them in 2023 06323. And the sales price here, let's say was 20,000. And the cost, let's say was was 16,000. Alright, so now I'm going to go back on over and say, Okay, what happens with that? Well, now we've got our schedule D. If I scroll up schedule D. Now we've got the short term part one is at the 20,000 minus the 16 we have a 4000 gain that we need to realize. And we've got on the long term, the 12,000 and the 2000, giving us the 10,000 difference. The total the total is 10,000 for the long term capital gain. And then we have 14,000. If we combine them together, what then is going to flow through to the form 1040? We're going to see the 14,000 short term and long term flowing through. And that results in 101 50. If I pull that into page two, now we're at the tax of 16,640 16,646. So let me do another scenario just with short term. So I'm going to go back on over let's delete the long term. And let's do the short term just in the same context of it being sales 12,000 basis 10,000 basis 2000. So now we have we have the same gain, but it's all short term. So I'm going to go back and say, Okay, so schedule D. Now it's all short term. Instead of long term, I have the same 10,000 of gain, it still pulls into the form 1040. So here it is pulling into the 1040 10,000. And we get the same taxable income 96 150. But the tax calculation is now 16 482, as opposed to what we had before. So now it's at 16 482, where the last game got us to 14266. So the difference between those two this time is this minus this, well, and then this is a let's this format paint this and go Okay, actually hold on it before it was at it was at this. So now I'm at this minus this. So now it's another 2216. And I added 10,000. So we're gonna say all right, what's the rate this divided by this? If I percentify it, hold on, I did that backwards this divided by this is going to be a rate of 22%, which is the ordinary income tax rate rather than the favorable 15% because it's short term. So if I can see that I could see that in my tax summary here. So now it took it might have pushed us up to another bracket, but it took the larger rate here, the ordinary income rate rather than the rather than the favorable rate of the 15%. Okay, another thing just to note logistically, if they sold a whole bunch of stocks, then they're probably going to summarize it between short term and long term. And you might be able to add like an addendum possibly to the tax return. Otherwise, you'd have to list them all out, right? So meaning if they sold hundreds of stocks, you would have to basically list out all of the stock sales that happened individually here, and then make sure that your totals line up and pull in correctly. Now, maybe you don't, maybe it would be easier to do to just try to summarize the stock sales that are short term versus long term. So the tax will be calculated correctly and see if you can add say an addendum which would give the information necessary for the further detailed needed by the government. So for example, you might in this software, you might say summary, summarize from attachment, and then you might add an attachment which possibly you can do here in this software by having electronic filing. And then you add the PDF attachment up top and possibly adding the more detail in that way, which could basically save time. So you might want to look into that in a little bit more detail if it applies, because it can reduce some tedium of just basically entering a bunch of these transactions. So for example, you might summarize it by saying that you know, this is the Vanguard, let's say it was from the financial institution, Vanguard. And I'm going to say long term, or I'll just abbreviate it with long term description, Vanguard, long term sales. And then I'll say this was from one to two. And then we'll say the starting point here was and if I put a negative in this software, it actually will vary the date. So I'm going to put a negative and then just make sure it's more than a year old. So it's long term. That's what long term means. And then I'm going to say it was sold at some point in 2023. So again, I'm putting a negative because it's going to be various dates because I might have sold I might have bought them on various dates, but they were all a year old before I sold them right because they're all long term and then I sold them on various dates, but they were all sold in 2023 and the date extended beyond a year. And then I could put something like okay, it was 12,000 2000 cost the total and then summary from attached statement. And then boom, boom, boom, and then I can add the next one, which would be Vanguard, long term, Vanguard, long term sale. Or this is this would be the short term, short term to do it. And then we'll say Vanguard, short term. And then I'm going to say negative one, one sometime in two, three, they were sold in the current year or within a year and then negative 0632 3 and we'll say that we sold these for 20,000 we bought them for 15,000 and attached statement. So let's just see what that looks like. So if I pull that on over, then on the schedule D. Now we've got the summary information for the short term 20,000 minus 15 is 5,000. And then the summary statement, the 12,000 minus the 2000 is 10,000. And then on page two, we've got the 15,000, which pulls into the form 1040 15,000 and so on. And then you can see if you can get that PDF attached that that possibly could show all the detail, which possibly might be provided from your financial institution, given the all the detail of the short term and long term sales. Okay, so what about losses? So if I had losses, let's go back on over. And let's say we're doing the long term again, I'm going to delete the short term for now. And say if we had losses, let's say we had 12,000, and then we bought them for 10,000. So now we're going to have a loss. So I'm going to go back on over and go, Okay, to do it. And so if I go to the schedule D. So now long term, we bought them for 12,000, we sold them for 10,000, we have a loss of 2000. That is also going to pull into the form 1040. I have 100,000 of income. Therefore, I'm, you know, I have the wages to take the loss. I'm sorry, did I have income again? What did I do here sales price? We bought them with the cost is 20,000. Let's say. Alright, let's do that again. Schedule D. So now we have an $8,000 loss. And that pulls into the 1040. So now we have an $8,000 loss. Even though I have wages, they're limiting me to the loss of $3,000 bringing the taxable income to 97. Do I lose the rest of it? I shouldn't because it should be able to roll forward to future periods. I had 8,000 before I should be able to roll it forward to the future. So I have the 83 150 taxable income page two calculating. Now is it going to hit me at the loss with the lower rates? No. Typically I get the loss at the ordinary income tax rates, which is great. So so that so that part is good. The fact that they limit the losses that I can take against my other income is problematic. But the fact that that they're not like like saying that my losses have to be taxed at the lower rates because their losses, they're good. I want the losses to be netting out against my highest tax bracket, which is in essence, you know, the 22. But I'm limited to only the 3000 of the losses. And then I can generally carry forward the losses that I didn't take this year to future years. And we can see that in our worksheets over here, we have capital loss carryover worksheet. And then you can see basically you had the loss of the 8000 and 3000 was deductible. You have 5000 long term capital loss carryover to 2024. What happens in 2024? Well, if you had capital gains in 2024 to net out against the losses, you might be able to take the full 5000 netting out against the gains. If you don't have any capital gains, then it's going to net out against the ordinary income but be limited once again to the $3000. Now you can see how this gets a little bit messy, right? Because like if I had capital gains next next year, then I would I don't really want to net out the 5000 against the capital gains because the capital gains are being taxed at lower tax rates. What I want to do is net out the the these losses against ordinary income, which are taxed at the higher tax rates. You see, so so you end up with these kind of funny tax planning types of situations with this, even though you have fairly straightforward scenarios here. Well, we didn't get the loss this year, we're going to take it next year. But there's a difference between the benefit of the losses if I get to take it against the ordinary income rates versus if I take it against the capital gains rates. So next year, what happens? Well, if I had capital gains, then I'm going to have to net out the losses against the capital gains, which means I'm lowering the income that are being taxed at the favorable rates as opposed to the income that are being taxed at the higher rates and so on and so forth. So you can get into like tax planning strategies on your on your sales and how you're going to be allocating your losses possibly to maximize the losses. Obviously, if the loss was a short term loss, then then both the gains and losses would be at the ordinary income tax rates. And again, if you had short term capital losses, they could be netted out against long term capital gains possibly, which which what you would like to do is net them out against the ordinary income. So that's the general idea with the losses. Now let's go back to the schedule D. So so it actually gets a little bit confusing when you get into the rules then of netting out losses against each other and then applying out whether it's going to be ordinary income rates or capital gains rates. So I'm not going to go into it. And I'm not going to look at all the different details at this point in time, although it's kind of interesting and fun to do. But you could have a carryover from prior periods as well in terms of the capital gains. So let's say let's say that you had then right here a long term capital loss carryover. Now if you had a carryover of a loss, then I would recommend that you're doing a return that's more complex. And therefore instead of just trying to populate the return in the current software without transforming it from the prior software, I would recommend actually doing the data input in the prior software so that you can get the return to mirror what you have possibly on paper, and then basically roll that return forward so that these carryovers will will will populate properly for you. But if I had a carryover from the prior period, I can say it's a long term carryover. Let's say it was 10,000. And I'm going to bring it back in. So now you can see that we have the loss of the current year plus another 10,000 loss, 18,000, it's still going to limit it to 3000 for the current year. And the rest of it's going to basically roll forward once again with that one. Now we also saw that you could have like gains that are populated from like dividends. So we saw that before like if you had a 1099 dividend, and let's say that this was from 1099. And you're going to say that the ordinary dividend was 1000 1000 qualified. And then you had a capital gain distribution of 2000 or let's say I'm using the same numbers 3000 13,007. Okay, let's pull that over. That'll be one that'll pop out. We're going to go into schedule D. So so now you've got this 13,007, which can confuse things because you're going to be like, I'm trying to add up the sale of my stocks. And then this number just got thrown in there. Where did it come from? Well, it came from the 1099 div that had a capital gains distribution. So so when you organize your your documents, you have to take that into consideration that you might have 1099 divs that have an effect on the schedule D as well as other flow through entities like an S corporation or a partnership, which might have K ones that are also flowing through that could have capital gain impacts that are flowing through with them as well.