Well, I'm I'm delighted to welcome people back this As our our's our panelists are getting ready This is our last session of the Afternoon, although of course we will reconvene tomorrow and we're really excited about a very special panel You just give folks a moment to get seated and so to start us off this afternoon I am delighted to introduce Michael Barr who is the Dean of the Ford School of Public Policy Hit this panel is a little different as you'll hear from the others because it is less focused on research and Really focused on the wide range of ways that through careers You can have an impact on public policy and Michael has had an impact on public policy through academia But also through his role in community engagement and in public service And so it's really an honor to invite him just to say a few words to the group before we launch the panel Michael Thank you so much Susan and good afternoon and welcome Susan said I'm the Dean of the Ford School of Public Policy Susan was my predecessor as Dean of the Ford School of Public Policy and I Will be thanking Susan in lots of ways in just a moment, but I'll just start by thanking Susan for Leaving me in institutions so strong and vibrant as the Ford School. I feel super just really blessed Sometimes deans come into institutions and they have lots of hard work to do inside the Institution to strengthen it and I just feel I have been Given a blessed gift from Susan so I'm very thankful for for that The Ford School is very honored to be among the co-sponsors for this symposium We're grateful to the university's bicentennial committee which provided generous funding for the event and For the wonderful partnership that we've had with the Institute for Social Research David and Susan worked intimately together on this as well as the Alumni Association and other campus units You've been hearing about the amazing contributions of Michigan graduates all over the world in providing and Deepening our understanding Of and addressing and working on problems of inequality across a broad range of domains a health education poverty economic mobility gender race It turns out if you look around the world at the top think tanks the top universities the top government agencies the top nonprofits Really all over there are University of Michigan scholars and professionals on front and center working on these issues and that proud tradition extends back for decades. I was at a Conference in September we organized here at the University of Michigan on behavioral finance And our keynote speaker was Bob Schiller the Nobel laureate Yale economist and Bob was one of the founders of the field of behavioral finance And he gave a really a quite wonderful lecture About narratives in economic history But before he started his formal remarks, he gave what I can only describe as a love song to the University of Michigan the rich and Deep tradition here at the University of the strongest most interesting Interdisciplinary research of people working across departments and fields to generate a deeper understanding of problems in the real world and then to act on them and That tradition is very much alive and well today as Susan mentioned The next panel which Susan really conceived and developed is Different from the other panels you've heard today the panel is composed of people who are graduates of the University of Michigan Who are in the world? in a wide variety of Fields and with a wide variety of skills Using their training here at the University of Michigan to make a difference and I am very much looking forward to the panel deeply grateful to Susan For organizing this panel and to Susan and David for their partnership and organizing this symposium It really is just an extraordinary event and could not have had happened without Their great and strong work and partnership together Which is again a hallmark of the way in which University of Michigan units and departments operate So with that I am pleased to introduce the moderator for this panel Michigan radios program director and host of the show. It's just politics Please join me in thanking Susan and David and welcoming Zoe who will introduce the the whole panel In radio so I should I should know how to use these things. Hi everyone. It's wonderful to see Faces out here and it's really really wonderful to see the five people here who who are on my right I have spent the past few days Getting to know each of them. Don't worry. It sounds a little a little creepy But I feel like I know each of you very closely now and I really believe like if I was stuck in a room Or had a really big problem These five folks are folks that I would want as my brain trust no kidding like it feels like member that That show planet America or Captain America and each person had a superpower and they would go together to save the world I kid you not each person here has I think their own superpower With that said I am not going to read bios out loud today. That is one of my least favorite things to do I think it's so much richer to hear from folks directly how they want to be represented So I'm going to go down the line and I am totally stealing this from New York Public Library I am a journalist so I say when I have stolen something else And I'm going to have folks describe themselves in three words Rather than what it necessarily means in their profile or the bios but how they see themselves So I'm going to start to my right with Carmen Harlan Hi Zoe Put you on the spot. You're usually the you're usually the one asking the tough questions usually but I will take tough questions today I'm talkative. In fact, I was nicknamed motormouth when I was young and Loud sometimes and I I think I have I think I'm funny. I really do And it served me well throughout my years in television and radio That is true I will say having been born and raised in Ann Arbor Carmen was like everything to me And I will tell you people at WDIV call her the Queen and I know for a fact that like she Treats them with such amazing Dignity young journalists who grew up and just watching you wanting to be you and I have heard just the best best things about What it was like and they're all true, and they're all true And she was incredibly funny too was the other thing that he said Lejun Montgomery Tavron welcome. Thank you. How are you today?  I know really hardy Do you want to pass and and just we'll come back to you ready? Okay, I've got a conspiratorial who dogged hustler My mother's watching this go I paid for that I like it. So hardy view. I didn't get to get the full the full before he was ready to go Cecilia hello, how are you? Okay three words Oh And it works like a title to Cecilia Munoz. We are so excited to have you after eight years In in DC. I can't wait to dig in a little bit about what you're doing How the world feels to you right now in in 2017? So we'll get there and Max Berman. Hello. How are you? Good? I Love it. Do you see why I want these five people in that room? Or you know solving the world's problems right here literally from the state house to the White House from Middle America To the Middle East these folks have really seen it all and done it all one of the things that Susan Collins And I had talked about putting this panel together is talking a little bit about impact inequality But as a journalist one of the things that I find really important is to define what it is We're actually talking about when we talk about Specific issues and I would love to get into a quick conversation I don't I don't need to you know again do definitions and things like that But but I will go down the line and want to ask what does inequality look like to you when we're talking about inequality? What do you think we're talking about? Well, you know a lot of times people will say well the playing field is level. What does that really mean? You know, I mean these are concepts that are thrown out and so when you talk about inequality you can see it I mean if you can certainly go through the city of Detroit where I'm from and you know this Areas that are thriving and the ones that are not you know the business districts that need some help or maybe don't even exist That's inequality neighborhood should have certain Resources they should have business districts. They should have a bakery. They should have a place where you can buy real food They should have a place where you know if you need your shoes repaired I mean just basic Necessities for living to make a neighborhood vibrant and healthy Okay, and you know to say that can you see it? Absolutely you can and that's just one aspect of Right, you can measure it in terms of that you know different treatment to go back to some of the earlier panels today of kids in in schools did the differential Application of school discipline policies like we learned from the data that we were suspending four-year-olds and they typically tended to be Bories of color so you can you can measure inequality through data you can see it and you know the Treatment of different communities at the hands of police you can see it in the way that We're responding to the storm in Puerto Rico as opposed to storms in other parts of the United States like there are Things that you can measure that you can see that people can feel The June I see you you nodding a bunch. Yes, I would just add that it is both structural and then there's a piece that's a mindset and I think when we talk about how you deal with it you have to deal with Structural is very measurable Sometimes the mindset is not so measurable, but it is very unconsciously present and we should talk about that as well I'm the president of the United States decides to weigh in on a quarterback who decided he was going to protest police brutality in urban America and Not only does he not consider all of the issues that that brings about but in his to make them Un-American to to make this a discussion of whether or not they're patriotic and Then to add SOB to the conversation just is just one of that when you talk about a mindset I mean it was a slap in the face and in a way I was kind of glad I wasn't working Because I don't know what I might have said on the air that day, you know And I mind you I mean report Journalism is different today than it was when I started and so you were asked to be objective And in fact you worked very hard at it today. That's no longer the case I mean you can weigh in you can give your opinion, but there are Consequences to that and I want to I want to get into that a little bit hardy. I want to hear from you inequality What when we're gonna have this conversation now? What are we talking about in your mind? quality of opportunity Rather than another type of life and and notwithstanding the circumstance you're born into So, you know having been born and having seen having been raised in Haiti that for me is a very real issue that when I go back there I think it's you know much of what I am fortunate to have probably has Everything to do with where I was born And then there were some opportunities particularly education that allowed me to have one life over another And so when I think of equality inequality, I tend to think of it as as access to opportunity I had a chance to visit Haiti right after the earthquake and I was I Can't tell you heartbroken that We would allow a country to exist in that condition 90 miles off the coast of Florida and how I mean it certainly wasn't in great shape before the earthquake, but it was even in worse shape afterwards and But the fact that we didn't feel a sense of obligation to raise What standard of living to make sure that the country was productive and moving in the right direction and regardless of of political views Certainly, but there's no reason for Haiti to continue to be the poorest country and you know on this side of the world There's not in this day and age. I don't know maybe because you don't want to see it People don't want people don't want to see Puerto Rico either. You know, I mean The president doesn't want to see it but but but there are others who don't want to and it's so easy to Forget about it, you know, just let it go for a day a month, you know a year or whatever It doesn't doesn't have to be a year A month a month is more than enough time For people to say, you know, well, I gotta go on with my life here and and and so I will and and so that whether it's Haiti or or Puerto Rico or whether it's various forms of inequality that are affecting, you know men and women and and people of color. I you know, it's just People may be grabbed for a moment But then they go on to their lives, you know, I mean and and maybe they send a check, okay, which is okay which is a good thing and And and and because it's hard to it's it's hard to keep caring every day That's that sounds terrible in a way, but but it's it's true, you know At a conversation with two different women You know very Accomplished women and they both started the conversation with wow. I'm so sorry for that country And I said pardon me Puerto Rico is part of the United States How do you understand it as a separate country? But that's what people have to do to reconcile Why it is so different from anything the United States would ever call the United States and In the case of Haiti, I would just say for my foundation. It was a wake-up call Because we've been in existence for over 80 years and we would always say that our funding was in Latin America and the Caribbean And yet our work in Haiti was insignificant in the grand scheme and we corrected that by committing ourselves To Haiti for the next generation and that is now one of our priority places and we work there We have every day, but it's because of the horrific inequality that exists there So you five we're talking about inequality We're talking about how other folks see inequality But but one of the things reading about what each of you have done in your careers after Graduating from the University of Michigan each of you seems to have this drive in you though that when you see inequality That you've been advocating for those on the margins to steal something that that Hardy said and I wonder What is that drive in each of you and where did you get it from? Where did that come? Walks on campus and walks into a classroom or a lecture hall. I mean you're given this Education so that you can go and do something with it meaning make the world better The way that you can do it in your own way and I know I felt like that I felt like I had been given a You know the letter of introduction to go ahead and and you know make my mark to be the journalist that I had admired You know during my youth and certainly I don't know if I ever actually attained it but I certainly gave it you know everything that I had to achieve that and That spark just was re-energized by being here for the four years that I was here. And so I couldn't wait to leave And I love that that after 38 years of just an amazing career. She's still not sure that she made it. Let's let you know You made it you made it Lejun, where does where does that drive come from for you 30 years at at the Kellogg Foundation? What does that take to stay at a foundation and then see it grow and grow with it? Perseverance and my ability to be a fighter and to also speak the truth So I have a story about the University of Michigan and this is not to be derogatory. It's about how I learned to survive But when I arrived here, I I Really, I knew that I wanted to be an accountant And I knew that I wanted to go to the business school and I had a plan and I was on and I met with someone who's very dear to my heart Dr. Edwards Albert Edwards who was a faculty member here at the University of Michigan and he told me these are the courses you have to take in your first two years In order to then apply to the business school get accepted And so I did exactly what he said for what that meant was in one year I had to take econ statistics and calculus so I went to go to my Registration counselor to take those courses and this woman told me I couldn't register for those classes and I said why not and she said you'll never pass all those You can't register for those classes. I'm not gonna allow you to do that And I said, oh yes, I am because if I don't I won't get into the business school And if I don't get into the business school, you know, my life is over. I have a plan I didn't know that the plan was even bigger than my own plan, but at the time that was my goal and We thought she said she wouldn't sign off on the registration. I registered anyway I passed all the classes with a B or better. I was accepted into the business school I became a CPA and Then that's when the plan changed and now I'm the president of the Kellogg foundation And So what that taught me was how low expectations and that goes back to that issue of the mindset You know, she didn't believe in me And when I fight for children every day and public school systems and all the work that I do I know that part of it is getting people to believe in those who have been disadvantaged and not Make them victims but make them champions of a system that hasn't served them well And that's what drives me and it's not that I have another positive story about the University of Michigan as well Because when I took my first accounting class, I was in a lecture hall like this and because I had this plan I have been studying accounting for a while. So I had I actually scored the highest in all the class on my first accounting and my The graduate student came into a room like this and said who is Leju Montgomery? and I was sitting there and I was like me and He said she scored the highest on this exam and you have to know that this was a white audience other than a few spots And that was affirmation So on the one hand there was someone that really just had low Expectations and it was someone else who decided to affirm My being and that's what I fight for people to do with all people Party I'll bring it back to Michigan as well. So prior to coming here. I think to the extent. I had success in my life. It was somewhat sort of like luckily right it wasn't a plan unlike the June mine was just sort of like, you know Some of it was happenstance. Some of it was just high school was easy As the Catholic brothers fully across high school probably Mone be mown that point So when I got to law school, I had a class. It was actually my last My last semester at law school. I had a professor Robert Harris who was then also the mayor of Ann Arbor and I took his class at the class I am was a sort of a poverty class and My final paper I took this position about how the federal government should be in the business of funding abortion clinics And so I wrote the paper and I thought it was like just it you know It should have been sort of stapled to someone's church door, right? It was that good in my We've all written those papers So I got the paper back and he put a plus and he put two asterisks and It was like two sheets of paper and then the asterisks were there and he explained and it was all comments Right and it started off.  What would Professor Robert Harris? That's the gif Oh This university is my family's pathway to this country my father went to U of M father and my uncle's We're not gonna go anywhere else even if you wanted to but all those foreign students. I'm so the reason that I was born in Detroit is because my my dad is a University of Michigan grad as is my granddad and My parents came from Bolivia a couple years before the law changed which would have kept them out So I I grew up Aware of that that the whole everything about my existence as a as a Michigan girl Was completely different from my family that was still in Bolivia And it was a little bit by accident and I think that I know that drove me while I was here and it's driven me ever since How was it that your grandfather came to University of Michigan? Your old father my grandfather Had studied engineering actually in Switzerland and went back to Bolivia Okay, and was visiting in the 1920s a friend in New York and bumped bumped into someone walking down Broadway and said, you know, I think I'm gonna go for a graduate degree I'm not really sure where to go and the friend said. Oh, I know just the place. It's called Ann Arbor, Michigan gonna love it and He and my grandmother were on the next train And that set the trajectory of my family which you know now affects all kinds of people I Spoke at a bicentennial event earlier this year. I told the story that we've we've counted There's been somebody if there's been a Munoz at the University of Michigan every decade for a hundred years There's someone today. Who's there? Oh, that's amazing Love that I love that so max. What about you? Where does that drive come from? Well, you know, that's where the drive comes from I mean, I think it comes from a lot of parts of my life Certainly being at the University of Michigan.  That was 1968. I graduated and and You know, you there It wasn't just the University of Michigan. It was pretty much every single university in this country That just didn't view women as having a value beyond being a teacher or a nurse And if you didn't like blood like I didn't then you were kind of you know, you're pretty much scheduled into teaching and You know that certainly changed over course of years, but I you know, I taught high school for years. I I But there was always a little itch in me, you know to do something else and I think by the time I Was in my sixth or seventh year of teaching I was really getting that you know seven-year-age to do something else and and I like politics And but I used to be pretty much on this just kind of a watching it, you know an onlooker seeing it and And I and I it's at one point. There was some of those in 1975 I could tell you exactly it was I was looking for something else to do with my my I need something to do with my time yeah, and and I was in a presidential election next year, so I did what any good academic would do because I was a good academic And and there was no internet Believe it or not if you're under a certain age, there was no Five we made it Made it But but I went to the library. I went to the library to look up the candidates who are running for president and I read up on all of them and Believe it or not in November of 1975. I decided Knowing not anything that I was talking about that Jimmy Carter was going to be the next president of the United States and everybody laughed at me and told me what a stupid fool I was and Look without the internet I figured that out But but I also but it but but the bug at that point was was completely Planted but it was it was there was you know, I think I think at that point though in my life, too Because I became very involved I became far more Aware, I mean you have cutely aware of how much sexism there was you know when you're teaching high school so are a lot of other women and When you're teaching high school at that time anyway, not maybe that's so much before me You're getting the same salary there there used to be discrepancies in salary, but but there were not when I was teaching and There were even a few women principles. So so but you know when you wander into other fields like politics And you know that the sexism is clear whether it's who's chairing a congressional district meeting or or it's quite clear and I was really I Don't want to say pushed but pushed hard by a lot of people to run for the legislature they desperately wanted women there just were so few women in the legislature and And so I did and you know long we hold that one But I was one of at that time then 11 or 12 women out of a hundred then 10 Members and and you know you want to talk about you know Being a tiny little minority That nobody cares about nobody remembers your name And then you know everybody calls you by everybody else's name because y'all look alike, you know seriously I mean they call you I mean they They would call me by black women's names because I was a woman all right and So and but at that point too I think Was also when I became really you know pretty adamant about Getting more women in the legislature You know I chaired the Michigan women's campaign fund and was very active in a very number of years Which was a bipartisan organization to Get women help women be elected get the money to be elected to the Michigan legislature or to the judiciary you know and and We used to really you know we had mentoring They weren't formal mentoring programs, but we you know we helped new women legislators out You know my my rule was If you are leaving Then you must find a woman take a place or you can't go Next I'm gonna just say I mean I will tell you that that we've done a lot of interviews with state lawmakers On Michigan radio where I'm based who I think I could close my eyes and some of these stories would would sound a little A little familiar to me I mean maybe not about the names and things like that But I think by last session in the state legislature in Michigan It was 22% of lawmakers were women that's it's very it's well term limits really killed women Off You know we had when I left I think there was 30 There were think I think there are 31 women 32 out again at 110, but that was a hell of a lot better than 11 or 12 and But term limits, you know within five six years. It was a break back down to like maybe 2021 people again and You know it but it's it's Yeah, if you know Jennifer Grandholm always you say if you can't see it you cannot be it So if you don't see women All right, or if you don't see people of color doing things that you normally would not think they would be doing You know or even things that You know that maybe You you you they you should think they should they would be doing but but but they're not when you were so frustrated You you wrote a book. I did that you want to you want to tell folks the name Yes, it was the only boobs in the house are men Ah And through our media I think that carries it You can get it on Amazon you can I've ordered it recently. Yeah. Oh, yeah. Yeah ships in three days. You can get it but Yeah, well that was started out as just a kind of a you know weekly pouring out my frustrations and Then ultimately got to be a little bit more, you know formal and formal eyes I still keep in touch now with Bill Haney who was the publisher then of momentum books that that was actually the publisher of it at the time but Yeah, it's it's it was very difficult There was nothing in the book that wasn't true I did not use names. I didn't want to hurt anybody. I wasn't out to hurt anybody Well, there was a couple people Who were who are dead? All right, so I figured it was okay Or that everybody already knew You know of the stories so it was okay but And that was men and women both right I mean but but You mean you have to well This this past week Which was an amazing week and in politics for so many different reasons But there's an organization called emerge Which is a national organization, but there's also an emerge Michigan and emerge in many other states Which was organized and put together in order to help women Get elected to office, but any office it doesn't have to be the United States Senate You know it could be the sidewalk supervisor in Redford Township, right just get yourself in that pipeline just get in there and They help and they teach people how to do this and they help them raise money and in Tuesday's elections 85 Emerge graduates were elected to something across the country 85 So that's what you need to do. You have to put that hand out. You have to keep it out and and And also, I mean getting mad doesn't hurt I mean getting mad is a good thing of the of the I Don't want to get too political here, but what cares? I of the six there were 16 Men in Virginia who lost their house seats their state house seats and 11 of those people who beat them were women Yeah, and and so You know When you see that anger something from my perspective something good's gonna happen, all right Some people with something bad's gonna happen from my from my perspective something good's gonna happen And let me pick up though on that word the anger and the frustration because I think so many times when you do see Inequality one of the easiest things to do is just get angry about it and See the bout it and let that build into resentment against systems Maybe that's even a little bit of what we saw in 2016 One could argue know whether it was fair the people that felt you know was was unequal or not can can Be a different conversation for another time But how do you move from anger and frustration into action for folks who are so angry? But each of you now doing amazing things have done amazing things How did you turn anger and frustration into something powerful which which looks like results Cecilia? So it's funny. I wrote about this actually me anger is kind of Has been I think an animating force for me into becoming a civil rights advocate actually wrote it about it and this I believe I say for NPR. Yeah. Yeah, I was about just called getting angry can be a good thing And it stems from someone that I really cared about in high school when I was so I was in high school in The late 70s and there were conflicts in Central America going on that my family would talk about at the dinner table being Latin Americans And this dear friend who knew my family well Said you know if we were to ever get in a war with them your family should probably end up in an internment camp and It was that was my moment of recognizing. Oh, wow wait I'm I'm an other I hadn't quite grasped it until then a family Friday people you were close with right yeah And that was when I understood at any point anybody could be another and at any point We are capable of these things of these terrible things which I thought of as historical things Which didn't happen anymore in which of course still do and we're getting a lesson in that nearly every day But I'm also I think I'm wired to be a pragmatist in the in the eight years that I was in government I feel like I learned a lot about the difference between Being righteous, which is important And being strategic, which is more important right that it is not enough I mean I sat across the table from a lot of advocates and I was an advocate for more than 20 years I sat across the table from a lot of my old friends Who the who in some cases were really helpful in giving me the tools within government to move things forward and In other cases they were not very helpful because it was more important for them to be right and be righteous and to kind of Speak their truth, which I respect But they also weren't giving me any tools to help us get anywhere I ran into that I ran into that in the legislature to groups who wanted help for me And I wanted to help them except they didn't really want to help I mean they just wanted to come in and scream Yeah, and rant and I kept saying what well let's or you know or I want you know I want ten thousand dollars or for something, you know Well ten thousand I can open a drawer and Lansing and find ten thousand dollars It's not a problem, but you know, you can't always get ten thousand. I said well, let's do five and you know, maybe no It's got to be ten. I can't get ten. You see those faces up there on that committee. They ain't giving you ten I can get you five.   Carmen you were nodding heartily to that You know, I was thinking how did I process anger? I mean certainly in trying to Navigate my way from radio to television. I ran into people that said well, you need more experience. You need to do this and I remember going out as a Cub reporter a young reporter with a camera crew for the very first time and you could I could feel that there was an Issue with my gender. I'm not sure if it wasn't a combination of both and the camera man Said I wanted to go out with a real report So I mean after I pulled myself together I I didn't hit him But I got angry I really did him and we did the story and He became eventually one of my biggest fans But just that initial Reaction to well, I wanted to go out which man a guy wanted to go out with a male reporter Because you know, they could talk male things and here I was this young female sitting in the back of the car But you know and so you confront it individually certainly as you said, you know Politically as well, but I didn't get stuck. I mean I had to choose like how I was going to Process it and so I did get angry, but I couldn't stay there because if I had stayed there then I wouldn't have been able to move forward and that is something that you know every Individual has to decide for themselves how they're going to do that.  It cannot it's harmful it's ineffective and It will blind you from the things that you can really do and the opportunities that you can really have You won't see them if you stay angry Yes, and I had to realize I mean this is I said, you know, I'm just getting started This guy's been around the block or whatever and they're getting ready to take film out of the newsroom put it videotape What's going to be the new way of doing things? So he was adjusting, you know, and I watched it when General managers became you know when women became general managers and you could see the reaction Among some of the men in the building that they had never worked for a woman before and what was that going to be like? so there the fear was the other part and That was what I wasn't going to allow But he never forgot it and neither did I Let me ask or at least the women on this panel. How many of you in the last? Month, I guess it was when it started maybe a month ago said yeah me too.  I mean I was afraid to them title not gonna put it any other way And I was working in the corporate world time by the way for a brief stretch That's why I see I learned something that don't work there but but Yeah, I mean that that me too for a whole lot of women, I mean Thousands millions in this country said me too Lajun working working through anger making sure it doesn't keep you down I can think about you know, you trying to register for those three classes and being able to just sit in that anger But you move forward I think two things I think it taught me how to dialogue and how to negotiate and It provides me a level of energy to just overcome that it's really really Whenever Not in a violent space, but it is we are going to deal with this and and it's very strategic But it's very purposeful and It's just been constantly the way I've operated I think in my work now I You know when I encountered the work we do for children and how much of it is systemic because of a structural racist Society Our anger has been to one tell the truth about it We have an initiative called the true racial healing and transformation effort We are funding this work all over the country and it's based from a deep sea to anger but an understanding that in order to Address these structures you first have to address it with the truth And and part of that is going back in and understanding the history and the narrative that was creative versus the factual narrative and giving people a place in a space to Rediscover the true history from there to actually heal Because our history has been one that has polarized us as people and to provide space for people to build Solid relationships and that's the dialogue piece if you turn that anger into Communication and dialogue you can learn a lot There's a level of understanding and then you take that space of understanding and now a shared history And you change things together. So that's a strategic platform that we built for Cities all over the United States and Dallas and Los Angeles and Chicago and Battle Creek, Michigan And and and you know what we're finding is this making a difference Part of it. No, no, please go. I was gonna say as for as reporters especially when you're covering the city like Detroit that We have a very strong political base Mostly Democrat, but there are Republicans there too. You don't see many of them. They're there and To hear the activists and they were the The same faces the same names that would show up at every rally. I mean it almost Started to take on a professional look it looked like a profession because they were always there and I remember being asked by I Miracle Patrick at the time to host a town hall meeting and of course in the front row because his rhetoric thrived on that kind of banter that kind of controversy I mean he had that and asking me to to moderate his town hall was probably not a good idea Because I diffused it immediately. I mean once I saw them because I knew what they were coming there for but he wanted that and You know in the front row They were you know, they were sprinkled around and you could feel the momentum trying to get started and I would Turn it around and at the end of the town hall meeting, which I thought was still productive Maybe not in the way that he was hoping that it would be It still worked and he never asked me to moderate another But you know When you want to hear ideas exchange the last thing you need are people who are willing to disrupt and be sure sure But it makes for good TV I suppose Hardy I want to turn to you and and certainly last but not least and I really want to direct this question at you because You've seen equality and and you've seen it in really tough circumstances. You've you've worked with Syrian refugees Legal rights. You've been to Guantanamo Bay. I mean we're talking about serious inequality that I could see could not just make you angry but just sort of Depressed about the world around you How do you fight through that on a daily basis when you probably see things that very few of us in this room has ever seen? I work with asylum seekers. I work with refugees who I have stories life journeys that are Remarkable and these women and men have endured things and we have a client Who is sexually assaulted by her grandfather her father and her husband over the course of several decades and When you meet with her, this is a person you say if you if this so anyone has right to be angry That person right right and she speaks in tones I'm not sure I could have the capacity to pull that word out and she and she means it and and she's not an Outlier I would hope that so many of our clients have been through so much and they have the right to be angry and somehow they channel something else and I I think that for me is inspiring right that I go how dare I be angry when He she They're not there. And so I think that sort of checks me Regularly and I also I'm reminded of sort of what Cecilia said that anger is a useful starting point When I've allowed it to take me through I rarely have looked back and said that was a that was a An exercise that had some productivity to it right so being angry at first is helpful to me But when I carry it through I usually end up in a dark place and I remember in law school we had an incident where someone wrote outside of a clinical law professor's door door just as a go home and word and So we the students of color at that time. I think we had a lot of pent up anger a lot of Sexism racism at the school at the time. This was in the late mid 90s And so we formed this civil civil disobedience movement And one of the things that we did and I was one of the people who pushed this was we had this vote where we we cast this issue of To the faculty of are you with us or are you against us? And we worded this in a way that said either you support students of color and women at this law school Or you don't and then we took a piece of parchment paper put it up in the first floor of Hutchins Hall Listed the professor's name and said yay or nay And we said and if you abstain you're a no you're not with us And one of my professors pulled me aside in the hallway and said you know I'm with you But I'm not with every single point of that the way you've casted the ballot But I'm with you and I said well you gotta you gotta make a decision right yay or nay And I lost him as a supporter and in more ways than one I lost him as a supporter and I realized that what was driving me through the whole time was anger and and ultimately I lost an ally and And I'm not sure what we really accomplished because of the way I was driving it And so I look back at that and go this is a useful starting point But at some point I got to check myself and like I said being surrounded by women and men who have done and gone through Things that I can only begin to fathom is a useful device to to to cause me to pause I mean one of the things you were talking about again as a journalist is this idea of Figuring out how you can be impactful Without advocating right and then you said this past year. Maybe it's a good thing that you haven't been live on air But what is that like and what was that that line like about how far you could go? about telling a story Before it became advocacy or before you said, you know what enough is enough, you know, I Never watched my shows Only because I treated it as a live performance and most live performers don't go back and watch their shows But I'm sure if I had I would have recognized something that's been very constant throughout my career Probably throughout my life. I'm an open book You know, we're what I think about something. I don't have to say it I can look at you and you can see my reaction and you know, you know, whether It's upsetting Whether I'm hurting if I'm joyful. So I Didn't have to make a stance. I mean, you know The commentary that I did asking the mayor of Detroit to resign Was I mean did I really feel that he needed to absolutely I had done my work I talked to people about it because I couldn't understand why in the world were we going through this When he needed to step aside, right? And why wasn't he getting that message? Who was it around him that told him? Oh, don't worry about that. You don't have to do that You're the mayor. Well, that's not king you know and That's actually a commentary I did watch and you could see My the feelings about it and did he resign as a result of it of that commentary? probably not but the pressure was on and All I did was put it out there and When people heard it they were like thank goodness somebody said it because whoever he was depending on They were telling him just the opposite and that's what he was choosing to believe and then he shortly did Resign after that. So I you know, I Am I proud of that probably not because no reporter no journalist should have to be in a position to call a Political leader out like that when they should know better when they're intelligent and they're surrounded by people who are advising them They should know better, but I mean the newsroom was energized beyond belief when the When those text messages came into the newsroom and we I mean They couldn't constantly couldn't think about anything else. I mean they were reading, you know very descriptive These are messages between the former mayor and his chief of staff and then there there were other women involved I mean it just so there was just this energy in the newsroom that we couldn't get anything accomplished it's like if he doesn't step aside the city was in the standstill there was a Presidential election on the horizon the Candidate for the Democratic Party couldn't come into the city of Detroit because he couldn't take pictures with the Obama yeah, yeah, so I mean we were hurting on all levels and being indecisive at that time I felt was more harmful than it was and all I did was ask him to make a good decision So how how do you speak truth to power then when you see inequality and Cecilia maybe I'm looking at you because I did just say President Barack Obama were there moments where you had to say Mr. President, this is not okay. This is not right about issues that you felt passionate about Right, so it's not But part of what he expected his team to do was Give him bad news and and or tell him when we thought that there was a direction an issue going in the wrong direction and It was very clear that he expected that from his team that your job includes especially Being able to be in his face and deliver and deliver bad news if you're not doing that then you're not being effective For me. I was very frequently the only Hispanic person in the room at the senior table. I was I was the only Hispanic woman for sure And for a while I had a there was a Latino male who ran the Ledger fairs department, but otherwise I was it and Granted this was a room full of amazing people who you know all worked for the same president and all shared the same values But it's still I didn't know everything that they knew but they also didn't know everything that I knew and The struggles that stick with me the most are the times and I'm seeing with June nodding her head Because I know you've been there too when there is a truth that you understand That it's important for other people to understand And you and you're not always finding the words or finding a way to For people to hear it in a way that they will absorb. I never had that problem with the president he's very empathetic and amazing human being but I did sometimes with my colleagues and It The thing that I drew strength from Was that I was very sure that that was why he had asked me to serve in the first place like that he Understood who I was and what I was bringing to the table and the clear message I had from him was I know they don't always Understand and that's why I need you there so keep at it And but for me the most painful moments were when I would say the words and I could tell people Didn't get it and I really I would practice I really would have practiced on my walks and in my car and I would try out some of my arguments on Valerie Jarrett Who is another person who regularly sort of understood and created kind of a safe space to to go in where you could go in and say? I've I just failed in this meeting. How do I help me succeed? But it's it's important to Have faith in the notion that the thing that you know the thing that you bring to the table is enough And your job is to articulate it in a way that will get through people and that's hard when you don't have You know a principal or someone that you're looking up to that gives you that respect or gives you the room to do that I can't imagine doing it for somebody that Wasn't going to have my back right the whole reason I went into government. I did it reluctantly I hadn't it wasn't part of my plan But the reason that I did it. I knew that It would be among the most challenging experiences of my life, which was true I also knew that a lot of my friends would be angry with me because I would have to make decisions that they weren't Happy about I knew that going in but it was okay because I knew I was working for somebody It's not just that he would have my back but working for somebody whose judgment I respected and I felt he isn't going to ask me to To explain a decision in my own community that I don't feel good about And that's what made it possible. I you know I Have been very fortunate in choosing great bosses And that's when I give career advice to people who are younger than me That is a regular feature of what I say like pick your boss as well Because you'll learn from them, but also When it's time to stand up for something difficult You'll it will give you more capacity to do that part of a job description that is Never really clear. I mean it's something that's inherited after you've been Around the block long enough and you've been there and you've got that kind of respect and I'm gonna say integrity and so And it's an honor it really is an honor and so When you know in the newsroom I Just enjoyed being in the newsroom and talking to the you know Whether they were interns reporters or whatever and they are my door was always open They could always come in if they were curious about how a story You know played and what my thoughts were about something, but When retirement is good too though I Want to make sure that we we get to some audience questions because I don't I don't want to just keep all of these folks to myself Although I could continue continue to do this But I think one of the the questions that I have still is Are things getting better? When we talk about inequality are folks learning more about how to make an impact When it comes to inequality You will hear about the tale of the two Detroit's you I mean it's something that's been talked about for years probably Existed long before They called it the tale of two Detroit's and now that we've got We just reelected the current mayor back. I mean and I believe That he is determined to make sure that that dividing line Starts, you know to blur by making sure that the the neighborhoods who may feel as if they're Not being considered or not included in the progress that the city is making that somehow You know, they're made to understand that no no our progress Won't succeed unless we include those neighborhoods as well. And how do you do that? Well, that's why they you know That's why we have elected officials and certainly but we know what happens when you leave communities out of that Mission, I mean certainly, you know Looking back at the riots 50 years later. You ask yourself. Well, why did Detroit or erupt that way and it was because People didn't feel as if they were included although ought to feel that way and I will say interestingly enough though It's been 50 years and we've done some reporting that actually though a lot of the Systematic issues that were happening in the city 50 years ago that that led to the rebellion or the riots However, you want to talk it or talk about it are actually in place Maybe have shifted a little bit, but a lot of those similar theorems have not changed The dialogue has while it's been more explicit There's it's also called many people to the table to say, you know, this isn't And I found more partners in the last year I think about Mayor Doug in speech on Matana where he just laid out. This is what we did to this city These were the bad policies that created segregation segregation leads to racism. He laid it out The same conversation is happening now in Mississippi. I was speaking with the governor of Mississippi recently I'm a Republican governor and he finally said, you know, we're not doing that by our children So there's a moment now I don't think we have to take advantage of this moment and leverage it, but it's been so Out there and we hope that it never goes back. No underneath now.  I may have been complicit I'm no longer going to be complicit because this is just crazy for those of you What legion is talking about is there's something called the Mackinaw policy conference some of you folks may know about it and and mayor Mike Dougan a Democrat spoke to a room that I think it's probably fair to say is that Least 50 50 Republicans Democrats at this conference if not a little more conservative than that business folks and he had that room Quiet on the edge of their seats and he didn't mind you too on scribbled out notes You can still find it actually on YouTube. I think at the conference of schedule I was in the room and folks were just Silent listening and this is a group people that doesn't like to listen to other people talk. They like to hear themselves talk Watch this video if you want afterwards because it's it's a just incredibly moving They certainly did they certainly did Hardy are things moving in a in a better direction Working with refugees. It's a it's been a difficult year. I mean to say the very least I am Starting on January 27th with the travel ban And I we have most of our clients are living in fear of stepped up deportation efforts I mean it seems like every day you read something where the other is being targeted once more so it is If I'm not careful, I probably wouldn't get out of bed in the morning. Let's say. What's the point? But in the midst of all this I Also saw at human rights first we were getting phone calls From all over this country of people saying we've got your back. What do you need from me? I mean, I mean the weekend of the travel ban As many of you know me lawyers from all over the country were at airports And so a group of us were at Dulles Airport late into the night Then we had to go back to the office to get press releases done and a local synagogue called and said we're gonna feed You tomorrow. What do you want to eat? I was like, who are you? What lunch for us and it was something small, but for me it was affirming It was like all is not lost right that that it's easy for me to think that this is a moment of darkness and light will never come Again, and then I looked at all of these wonderful people from the synagogue feeding us and that was just one instance I thought you know it. This is still my America, right? But I'm not liking right now, but actually there's always the things I don't like about it But all is not lost and I have to think that way because if I don't what's the point, right? I'm gonna phone it in I'm just not gonna get out of bed in the morning to say I Can't give up, right? So I have to believe the narrative of this to shall pass and But like I said, it's it's it's allowed some really good forces of Justice to step forward and shine a light on those women and men and those movements I mean, you know, I was at the US Court of Appeals for the Fourth Circuit in Richmond, Virginia in May for a travel ban oral argument And I watched a sort of a spontaneous protest break out And I was like that's my man I mean these forces that you're pushing against it's not I mean this isn't new right, right? We're we are capable of extraordinary things for good and for bad. That's always been true I found myself saying to my colleagues at the White House. You can imagine how we were all Feeling after this the you know election of a year ago Look, it's the same country that elected Barack Obama twice like we didn't stop being that place But we are also the same place that enslaved people and interned people and did a lot of terribles Like we are all of those things. Oh, that's all of that is who we are It's what we do with it. That's important and in the our Behavior our response our pushback in Moments like this one is is the most important thing It's what determines where we will get when we get to the next place but the As you know the president like to say to us, especially in the last couple months We were there like the arc of history still bends towards justice, but it's not a straight line Like what made you think it would be a straight line. It's never been a straight line But it's it's the hands on that arc bending that matter and that's that's up to us Well, I know I don't know and maybe I'm watching too much MSNBC You're not the only one You know at two o'clock in the morning, I wake up and it's still on, you know So I mean a part of me says when when you ask that kind of question, you know, of course we're not better You know, I mean and then there are those good things And and and I know that the arc of justice keeps bending the right way It's just so damned hard sometimes And it's so damned hard to keep fighting sometimes, you know, it's it's And and then of course I realize that they just want to wear me out and that just kicks me gets me going all over again You know, but that is that is part of the, you know, that that that is part of their philosophy is just wear them down you know and and I Think one of the great things from this year Again going back to women the anger of women and the and the Waking up of women starting with the day after the inauguration.  I thought that'd be far enough, you know and and But all over the world and then and and and that they keep going and that they ran this time and they were there You know and I just have a suspicion that for a while anyway, they're going to be there so, you know, I mean it's But it is hard because you know, you know that you know good things are happening and and and But you know and on the other hand you also know that you got three more years that you got to wait and Hope that you end up with, you know that I don't have to keep watching MSNBC And and that's and that's difficult. I mean it's it's We are a I mean I love my country. I just know that there's a lot of warts, you know and and It would be it would be ever so nice and and and the problem is is that sometimes we see warts differently You know, I don't I mean I don't I find that people who are You know burning the flag to be pretty obnoxious, but I think they have a right to burn the flag I think the flag is there because it gives you a right to burn it and Don't throw anything me but but You you have to you know, you have to see those those dualities and Understand that that it's okay to it's okay to understand the dualities and that in fact It's better to understand the dualities than not Because It's it's been a very very difficult year for people who care about Government and I do mean now. I'm talking about now about the very structure of government I mean I care deeply about the physical structure of government the three branches of government I care deeply about those things. I care deeply about, you know The department of this the department I care deeply about those things. They there's a reason for them and they do good jobs and and When I see them and when I see people undoing those those departments when I see them undoing a Strike up as a structure of government a piece of government when I see people, you know dumping on Judges because they don't like the way the judge Ruled well, that's how it's supposed to be, you know Sometimes you win and sometimes you lose and that's the same with political, you know elections too But it's it's it has been for you know for many of us here a Difficult year and you know, you hope that things just get better. That's all you know I mean, I don't know if you had friends that called you or family members that called you and said what are we going to do I I don't know if I want to live here anymore. I mean you heard the extreme reaction How are we going to get through this? We're strong. We're Americans. This is America This is the land for all of us not just some of us and we have to make sure that we continue to make that work so that it's for everyone not just a select few and Deplorable behavior is there doesn't mean that every deplorable person is Un-American my children called me the next day and I listened to them and you know what I told them Raise good children If you want to give back in that way with the grand raise good honest law-abiding hard-working Americans Bring them to me so I can see my I want to open it up to questions So Susan how about we do this that just raise your hand and someone all Come to you with a microphone. So we will make it even easier And why don't you go ahead and say who you are before you ask a question to one of these fine folks And it is hard for me to believe that there are no questions for the five who are who are on my right here. Yeah. Yeah right here Do you go to the mic? Oh, you want them to go to the mic? Okay? Sure a dozen or so years My question is how do you feel the impact of technology and its growth of the past 20 years? And it's resulting displacement of workers and flattening of wages Has impacted the political tone and tenor that we have today Actually a thing that I work on but let me start by saying you said you're an Air Force vet. Thank you for your service So Technology by itself isn't isn't good or bad. It's it's it's how it gets used That right and so there's lots and lots of negative potential, but there's also lots and lots of positive potential, but We are in a time that's like the Industrial Revolution in terms of the scale of change and the The pace of it with a lot of change really fast that's going to have a transformative impact and We learned some stuff last time that hopefully our lessons that we can apply this time Which is kind of what I'm it's what I'm doing at the organization where I'm working now, which is called New America the the It took us last time several decades before we passed things like child labor laws and develop labor unions and Put the structures in place that that mitigated some of the harms of the kind of rapid technological change So like we shouldn't wait for we we can anticipate some of what's going to happen here and we can get ahead of it Technology has the capacity to give us the tools to actually reduce inequality Or it could increase inequality, but if it's going to reduce inequality that's not going to happen by itself Right, we have to be deliberate about it and we know look you can anticipate What some of the negative effects are going to be we have some information about the kinds of jobs Which are likely to shift and we know which communities typically get left behind because that has been true for a really long time so instead of Having a conversation about holy mackerel the robots are coming for our jobs And we're all going to get screwed again, and there's nothing we can do about it We're trying to have a conversation that says all right. There's technological change. How do we make sure that? We put the tools in the hands of People so that they can be driving this change in a way which catapults their communities forward That that's the question that we're trying to ask and we're trying to my in particular I'm engaged in an effort to put Technological tools and technologists themselves the people who develop them on the staffs of nonprofits and in you know on the staffs of people like mayor dug in and and We should be using technology to solve our problems and not just assume that technology is the problem But that takes deliberate work and investment and forth on Hello, my name is Gabrielle Horton. I'm a second-year master of public policy candidate at the Ford School I'm in Hardy it's good to see you again, and thank you all for all of your comments But Hardy in particular you had a comment that really struck me Talking about or reflecting on your time at the law school and thinking about how you sort of distant yourself from a professor Who could have been a really great ally? And I think that that's a word that we keep hearing over and over again Thinking about intersectionality and ally hood and who's an ally and I guess I would be curious to hear from you and Perhaps one other person on the panel about some of the best tips or suggestions you think about in terms of cultivating allies Where does sort of like that? Boundary get drawn between I guess you sort of educating and doing all of this like emotional labor But then also finding ways and spaces to actually support others along that journey and Perhaps towards a much larger goal as well So if you have any tips or suggestions for folks who are doing this work and thinking about how to incorporate and Best work with allies to be curious to hear about that Thanks And allies anywhere, right? So I tried Not to sort of presuppose that my allies are only gonna be found in this forum or in this area I think I do myself a disservice if I if I think of it that way I think in terms of forming relationships because that's what it's really it's about it's about relationship building that I do my best relationship building if I can Talk like I know what I'm talking about and listen like I don't know what I'm saying right so that I think to the to the sense that I can to the extent that I can Ensure that I I'm open to learning. That's an important piece of this ally building Because when I come to the table saying that I've got all the answers and surely you don't so please You know lean forth and take notes. I've got myself I've got a problem and and also and I recognize also with ally building since we do a lot of that human rights first that sometimes We're gonna be allies on XY, but maybe not Z That's okay, right that that doesn't that doesn't mean that we can't come back and and regroup on something else And so I'm pretty forthright about that. I go I'm gonna work with you on this This word we're not gonna be able to be on the same sheet of music So I wish you well I'll catch up with you next time and I think having sort of candid discussions and assessments of that are helpful And to use Cecilia's words be strategic, right? I do especially in our line of work that we've got to think thoughtfully about who our allies are and and make a plan to go about it and recognize that When it comes to being allies it all pivots on sincerity, right that that if I can't Truly be your supporter on this I should own that and be forthright about it And if I am going to be your supporter on that then that means I'm gonna represent myself in a certain way That means I'm gonna speak up for you in a certain way And there's a certain commitment involved in that so those are the things I would I would say the June or anyone else What I was just gonna quickly say that it feels so relevant about this idea about figuring out what we can agree on Whereas it feels like and maybe this is technology or you know Social media has figured out how to talk so much about what we disagree on or this idea that if you know If we're not a hundred percent on board for the same policy or the same way of thinking about something That's it instead of accepting. You know what? We've got some differences, but overall probably We've got more similarities about what we want You know health goodness for our families to be able to take care of our loved ones legion. Please yeah making people From kind of dichotomous thinking this or that and or out and that's why I was laughing earlier when you Put the chart up and said you're either in or out and I can see me doing that at one point and Now I've learned that you know a lot of that type of thinking is what's ingrained in us part of that is the You know something that's much more deeper about how you Build division in a country as opposed to alignment So when I think about allies I think Some of the best work I've done is in this space around and working with an organization called white men as Diversity allies and basically it's a it's a space where we talk about how you can have allies Even some that you may not think would be your ally But how they can be an ally and how you can receive that and I think part of that journey is getting to that space and Some of my best allies I I would not be sitting in this seat had it not been At four certain people who chose me. I didn't choose them But I had to receive that and it had to Take me to a new space of trust and openness And so there's a lot of growth in that relationship, and I think you have to show up route ready to grow and Ready to learn something different than you knew when you started out, but it could I think that's the journey we all have to take Cecilia I'd love your thoughts too on it though just going back to the idea of working Not between two separate groups But I you know I think one of the things that you dealt with at the White House was the idea of dealing with immigrants and then dealing with a President who some folks didn't always think was very kind to immigrants or calling him the deporter-in-chief and you having to go back And forth between the White House and and some allies What was that like and how did you deal with that role of being so in the middle? So the person who called the president the deporter-in-chief is my former boss someone who's like a sister to me So that that wasn't easy But it's also I knew going in that that I would live with that tension that that as a Immigration policy expert I knew when I went into the administration at some level no matter what we did with immigration enforcement I was going to own it and that's a very uncomfortable issue in my community I did it because I was certain and I turned out to be right that the president was going to be making good decisions So immigration enforcement in fact did go up deportations from folks in the interior because Congress allocates the money for that and and You know DHS's job is to spend that money like that would have happened no matter who was president What we did do was put in a set of priorities so that Instead of treating all 11 million people who are deportable as if they were the same We made an effort to work with the agency the law enforcement agency in this case DHS to Focus their energy and attention on folks that that post some kind of risk as opposed to other folks who don't and we actually it took It clearly it took too long The agency was too tentative all of those criticisms are true But we got there and we got there in a way that was tremendously impactful all of which has been undone since badly undone since then and What people came at me with was You know we you are suspect now because you are involved in Enforcing the law and my response to that was I'm a government official. I swore an oath to uphold the law and You need people who know what I know from all of my experience in the advocacy community You need people like me to be willing to go into government and help make decisions about how the law is going to be enforced even when it's a broken law that you don't like and if people like me stay pure and Stay out of government somebody else is going to be making those decisions who doesn't know what I know and And how do we move forward that way? So I'm comfortable with that now those meetings where like people who were like my family Were sitting in the room and I was sitting next to the president and it was uncomfortable like those were painful meetings But He understood like he was an organizer, right? So of course you need advocates you need people to be in your face. You need people holding your feet to the fire That's the essence of how a democracy is supposed to work But it works best when people understand themselves to be part of the same team playing different positions Right, so their job is to keep us honest Our job is to listen but also to let them know what our what the legal constraints are And and when it works well, it's an extraordinary thing, but you have to be able to Have conversations with people who disagree with you on some stuff because on other stuff They may agree with you and you might be able to move the ball a few a few yards and president Obama used to say all the time You go into government to make things better and if you if you stop because they can't be perfect Then you're making a mistake and he would say all the time he would say I'll take better every time We're not going to get to perfect, but if we can get to better I'll take that and he's right Yeah, no And maybe they shouldn't all been there. Okay, and it's okay And you're not going to like everybody But as we mature and we're able to see the world just a little bit differently not through the eyes of a you know I'm going to use myself as an example of a 20 year old or a three. I mean I grew on the air you know, I started out as a Young reporter and by the time I retired I was old enough. I probably raised I don't know how many generations of kids who don't hesitate to tell me I grew up watching you on TV But you know what it's a compliment and did everybody that watch That night believe everything that I said or liked everything that I said no And it's okay, but when I was younger it hurt It's like oh my gosh, how am I gonna live tomorrow? You know, how am I gonna get over this? And then I had to understand that's not my job Yeah That's how to go Hi, my name is Louisa Roscoe. I'm a second-year undergrad that's studying at the Ross School of Business and hi and so I think the first step to addressing inequalities is they have to acknowledge them and in conversation with my peers I've realized that a lot of them refuse to acknowledge that there's inequalities in the world and refuse to have an open conversation about inequalities in America and So many of you and myself and I'm assuming many people here believe in inequalities because they've experienced inequalities themselves Or I've had conversations and I've been able to you know Grow as a person and realize some of these things but how would you handle having conversations with people who refuse to acknowledge those kind of things and We'll turn that as you being unpatriotic or use you not being appreciative of being in the United States How would you handle those conversations and trying to educate other people? Oh, that feels so relevant again today Who wants to grab at first? Yeah? Because you can debate You know a manifestation of something but no one can debate your own person story and I I think the best way to do that is to get a any person to really not only talk about what they see out there but talk about themselves and What's going on in their own journey and their history and what's their personal story and get them to listen to your personal story and Typically what you find is there are going to be some commonalities and then there are going to be some bends And to talk about where those stories bend and also where they come together is actually pretty powerful So I've been in a room where people start out, you know I had Sometimes this man stand up to me and cross his arms and just you know he was ready for battle and I just Unarmed it because I talked about what was true and real for me. You have to be vulnerable first of all to Break down some of those barriers But I told my own story and he couldn't debate that and it also made him listen and then we've talked further and further into whatever the issue was and It's pretty powerful. So that's what I would say is it's the the There's a methodology around how storytelling Can be affirming and actual build trusting Relationships and I think that's the only that's the only thing that I've seen to work well Just that being critical means being Ungrateful of being an American, right? And so this experience happens sometimes when people You know one thing even when you have last names like ours people don't necessarily assume that you're from this place That comes into question a lot But Ultimately, it is Questioning what goes on in this country and working to make it better is a fundamentally patriotic act and don't Like don't don't give an inch on that question. I am Belinda Tucker from UCLA went here for graduate school and what I've appreciated most about this panel I think is your stories of personal evolution.  You're successful and the in the in the path can be different During like a Ford School podcast idea right there I Actually That was going to go down a very similar road. So I built on Belinda's question. I'm David Lam from ISR which was Also in the vein of sort of advice for young people choosing these, you know, making decisions. What do they do when they graduate? What are they? What do they do when they face these different position potential things they could be doing So so you said it's not, you know, good to choose a good boss But you know, what if you don't have that choice?  They're not quite perfect The bosses aren't quite perfect, which most of them aren't probably And maybe they're not necessarily the path that you know, you want to have an impact on society But you know your option is to work for Mackenzie or do something else Not that Mackenzie doesn't make a positive contribution to society, but So I just wonder if you could reflect on kind of those kinds of Those kinds of things these sort of you know, where do you go? How do you how do you make these decisions? To try to end up having an impact and you know, you don't immediately get invited to serve President Obama and Maybe you get invited to serve some other president. That's not president Obama, which is the same kind of a question, I guess of SSI I think he's eloquently put it, you know, somebody's in there making those Decisions, what if you get invited to serve in a administration? You're not so crazy about it a level that isn't quite what you hope for Yeah Carmen said something which really resonated with me that I think about a lot I've given a lot of career advice lately because everyone I worked with was moving on in last January, so We've had I've had a lot of conversations, especially with younger colleagues along these very lines And I think It's really really important to find a way to be true to who you think you are LeJune talked about she had a plan and her like the plan turned out differently than she had anticipated But it sounds like you were being true to yourself, which is how you found the courage to go in a different direction I think of And any young person that I have given career counseling to will laugh when I say this because I say the same thing every time I think of it as a continuum if if what you want to do is make a difference for example There are a bunch of places on the continuum you can do it You can be an advocate and an organizer you can work in government you could go to law school You could you could do it in the corporate world like there's lots and lots of places The key is figuring out where you belong where your voice is strongest where you feel like you fit and you're really gonna Think of it like if you're a violin string where you're gonna be the most in tune like at your core Because that's where you're gonna be successful people come to me and ask You know like I'm thinking about making this move and it seems like the right credential to have in my resume in order to Go in the direction that I want to go and I tend to discourage people from getting the right credential and to go with What what are you it's gonna make you wake up in the morning feeling pretty good about what you do? Because as somebody who hires people I can spot those people they they shine Right and the person who's like I'm gonna work at this place because it's like I feel like I need a few years Experience doing this thing and then I'll move on to something else. They're not in love with it Then it if that shows too so understanding that you may not be presented with an array of options All of which you know make your heart sing But it it matters to be looking for things that are true to where you think you belong on that continuum And you may find out I thought I was I was my I started my career thinking I am destined for direct service I'm gonna work at an organization that has clients and I did that initially and I was bad at it But I discovered my voice as an advocate and my course changed too So you have to be willing to listen to what your life is telling you but it but I Just think if you're trying to be true to yourself that is Is that sets you on a path where you are most likely to shine? On the back end of that what I try to give Korea advice I think of Trying to free young people up from this belief that there's a perfect Right that and that there's more than one of us, right? I mean like Hardy at 30 was not the same Hardy at 40 who's not the same Hardy at 46 and And they've all been different incarnations with lots of missteps along the way thankfully and So yeah, I try to steal a page from design theorists right technologist You know they design a mouse and they have three buttons on and they put it out there And they go get feedback from Sicilian says what what isn't it have three buttons It's awkward to use and then they do it again, and then they do it again And so I think there's something if you can think of life in that sort of manner I try to tell younger people that it frees you up from going I got to get the perfect job I mean just this week. I heard from a Michigan a recent Michigan undergrad I've graduated who I met earlier this year and she has a fellowship in Pittsburgh and has been there for three months And she says I need to get out because it's not perfect and my my response was Calvi Because it's okay. If it's not perfect. It's not you're invariably going to learn something about yourself in that process I think if we can try to free younger people up from this belief that you got to get it right Because I suspect not many of us have got it right the first time around and we're probably Better off because we didn't get it right the first time. Don't be afraid of failing failure reads success you learn by Picking yourself up and you find out who you really are You know if everything goes so smoothly and they think you're wonderful and you know You don't have anything to fall back on You know, then you think that that's the way life is and we all know that it's not that way and we've all failed at something But finding something that you love to do every single day Whether you're paid or not Will separate you from the people who feel you know compelled to follow a plan or a pattern or or whatever than those who Let the opportunities find them too And I would just add When I tell people I've been at the W. K. Kellogg Foundation for 30 years young people laugh at me Well, because they say what you started when you were four. I mean They're thinking About meeting a challenge in a place and and working through it and getting to the other side that building that perseverance and that character and that safe relationship that you begin to know and You know, I could say there were many times when I thought oh my bad Out of here And at one point when I had many opportunities and I look at these places. They were worse than the one And they weren't as enlightened. They just obvious. They really were not and so there's something about a Journey that you choose and it's inward as much as it is that Employer and sometimes I think a person has to think about what are you? What are you learning through this and what might be that longer-term perspective than that short-term? Reward that some people Are driven toward? Well that's close to time I I got to start with sort of a silly, you know three word And so I'm gonna start with a you know end with a really serious question Which is all of us is you have them graduates and different different decades different times Was your favorite thing favorite restaurant favorite thing to eat when you were a student here at U of M Do you remember? And I come back fact I'm on my way there now I Hock right there on on stage street when I was a student yeah when I was Every Friday the charcoal house every Friday on State Street Yeah, and then I would buy myself something like for making it through another week like a magazine Yeah Bob's is still open, right? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, Japani Yeah, the chipotle and a malt and I when I came back to the Ford's go I did a sabbatical here a few years ago And of course it's right across the street and I went and I got the same thing that I always got as a student Which is a chipotle and malt. I was appalled at how much food that is Lijun what was it blimpy's sure sure a great hearty. Hello. What was yours? My university cafe a Korean place and over by Rex sure sure I see this reminded me of Haiti and it was just It was pretty awesome Well, thank you all for sharing so much about about your lives and your really incredible journeys from the University of Michigan Before that and after it was really it was an honor to get to hear all your answers. So, thank you and Thank you all of you Susan Collins Dean director. Thank you so much for for having us So I just just to close things out Of course For the insights and especially the candor. Yeah, we do have it recorded I know a number of folks have been watching us online. Thank you for joining us We hope to see at least some of you tomorrow as well. This was wonderful So please join me in a round of applause to our moderator You