The meeting is called to order. I'm asking for additions to the agenda. I have just a little comment under other business about another use of my time. I'll make it short at the end of the meeting. But if I put it out there now, people will help me remember. Okay, seeing no further additions to the agenda, review of minutes for September 11th, 2023. I have one comment on these otherwise excellent minutes. There was a Renee who was remotely publicly attending and her last name was Carpenter. Ah, thank you. Yeah, I believe she didn't have her last name on there and she wasn't showing her face. It may have been difficult to tell. She appears not only in the record of remote public attendance, but her comments are cited a number of times in the minutes. Howdy. Good evening. You're here before the first vote. I need a motion to accept the minutes. Okay, motion. As amended, okay. We are moving to accept the minutes as amended from the last meeting. Do you have any comments on the minutes? Nope, they look good. Okay, all in favor, please say aye. Aye. All opposed? Motion appears to pass, motion passes. Over to you, Seth. All right, next item is public comment. I don't hear anything. Move to the next item. Conversation with the funding request study committee. A little early. Yeah, it's about to say we're a little early. Kimberly is actually here for that agenda item. I'm not sure if anyone else will be attending, but so. So should we, we could fit something else in. There isn't much. There isn't much. There was no other business. Like motion to adjourn, is that what you made for? I mean, I can, I had a quick addition to the agenda that I was going to put last, but I can put it up here now. Yeah, let's do it now. Sure. So I just got word officially today. Actually, I guess Friday, but I got today a list of the people who are running for Hunger Mountain Co-op Council. I am one of those. And you may recall that when I done it in the past, both boards were meeting on the first Monday of the month and that interfered. But they are in a conversation amongst themselves about moving to some other date than the first Monday of the month. So my intention is to withdraw my candidacy if they do not move it. So I just wanted to let you guys know in case you heard something and be informed of your comment. But we'll definitely let you know if you heard something. Yeah. Right? That's a big news. Okay, well, thank you, Carl. Sure. That didn't take up much time. That did. Do we have anything else? I'd like to say, I guess this would have fallen under public comment, but I just wanted to say it's my last meeting, taking minutes for you guys and I wanted to thank you guys for the opportunity to do this and I wanted to also say that I think so highly of all of you and I really appreciate the thought that you bring to these meetings. Wow, that is like amazing. Well, I do believe them. But we really do. We like to stay. Oh, wow. Yeah, we like to stay. In spirit of full disclosure, we were talking before you came in about what a wonderful contribution that you made. Yes. And we forgot to bring a cake, but... You don't need to bring a cake. But we really are going to miss you. We really are. I mean, that's not even BS. I mean, what you told us probably was. It really wasn't. I really do think very highly of all of you. I do. And I'm sorry not to be continuing. You guys are fun to take minutes for. I just, I don't have the time anymore. And you have a good sense of humor, which we really appreciate. Well, I try. And you say it like it is, which is so much. Really appreciate it. Yeah. And you were extremely valuable and an asset to the planning commission when you did. And I was honored for you to take your very values. Thank you for your service. Yeah, I was counting our lucky stars when you showed up. Because we have advertised this position before and we did not have any good luck. And I was like, man, this, this is good. You don't know with anyone. But now it's no longer good. Sorry, I do wish I could continue. I don't know. Oh, fair enough. Yeah, fair enough. Okay, so we got to kill another five. I can do the TA report or start it if you want. We can do the warms. Or you can do the warms. Yeah, let's do that. Pass them around. That usually takes a few minutes. It's a pretty short one. Put one down and pass it around. Yeah. Anything we need to be concerned about? They roll. Office supplies, $1.58. I really wish they could combine. Yeah, it seemed like that would be effective. It would be really nice. Yeah. Yep. Cemetery mowing extension board. Oh, TIFCO. No, they're still around. TIFCO. Yeah, they never stop on the place anymore. We were wondering if they were still in business. I think we got a box today from TIFCO. Those come to Guthrie. TIFCO. TIFCO, they sell hardware and stuff. Sometimes the boxers are really heavy. They're local? No. It's a big company, but the salesman travels this area. Like Snap-on kind of thing? Kind of, but not like that. They ship everything. Yeah. Well, I don't know. Did they have some on their truck? I'm not sure. It's say, 19, 18. 18. 9, 18, 23. Shredniger. Thank you. Yep. Did you look over the wall? Yes, briefly. How's your stuff going? Not good. Well, we met. We moved to the state, but... We what? We had a meeting with the state. Oh, up there? No. From where? No, it's not anything at all. We had a... There's a problem with stone that they brought in. Oh. Oh. Too many finds in it. Happens. Huh. So you're building that and then selling your house? There you go. And you're gonna have that? Whatever you want. Well, we have two properties in there. Woodberry too. Oh, yeah. Wow. Yeah, you've been busy over at your... You've been busy. Yeah. Going crazy. There's a lot of dirt moving over and his second... Oh, does he have permit for that? Are you putting in filth? Are you putting in filth? No. Good. You're just moving. Moving around. Farms can put in filth. I've heard. Farms can just do anything. Pretty much. I like it. So, are we done with the warms? We have two members from the funding request study committee. Are we done with the warms or not? Mm-hmm. Oh, we are. I have a sign that we have. That's why I was wondering, I hadn't seen you sign them. Oh, I don't know. Pass it. So, what did you do? Short cut? You cut him out. That's right, John. I've tried to delay things and stir it up a little bit. Oh, yeah. That's good. That's your idea of stirring it up? I'm a real radical. Yeah, I see. I'm a conservative radical, so how do you say it? I'm a fiscally conservative radical. Yeah, okay. Social liberal. Oh, very good. You have a lot of labels. Bullshit? No, I wouldn't say that.  No, I didn't say that. I wouldn't say that. Not in your mind. No, no. I would not even think it. The bubble said. No, no. I'm not coming on time. Let me gently correct you. I would never think that. I would never even think that. But I am really busy. I'm sure you are. Yeah. And I was covered in Greece, so I'm like, I better take a shower. Yeah, I'd never think I'm coming back. No, out of respect. Thank you for that. You're right, exactly. Out of respect to the rest of the board, I didn't want to come in looking like I just jumped out of inside of an engine or something, which I was, but.  And we appreciate it. Thank you very much. Okay, so we've killed a lot of time with our useless banter plus the warrants are done. So let's move to conversation with the funding request study committee. Are you representing them? I don't know. I was just on the leader. So I'm new on the committee. I have no idea. Okay. We're going. Okay. Sounds good. Is there's now, is someone else on the committee that's tuning in here tonight? Jenny is here and Kimberly is here. Kimberly is also new. Okay. She's assumed the, the Lindy Johnson position by being the TA spouse on the funding request study committee meeting. Jenny, no, Jenny's not. So who's taking Kimberly. Okay. Kimberly is taking over Lindy's position. No, I'm joking. She's, she's the TA spouse. They're tense always. Okay. Yes. TA spouse on this committee. It's a requirement. So who is the. TA spouse is continuing on this committee. Who's a point person on the funding request committee? They don't really have one right now because Lindy was the. I was going to be here. Who? Paul. Yeah. Okay. But he's not here. Last I knew. Okay. So generally what we do is we meet. Jenny, you're on mute. There, Sarah. I think Paul is planning on attending. Sarah is just joining in here. We don't have a chair, but Paul has seniority. So we're hoping he'll step up to the plate. Okay. Well, basically it's a pretty brief meeting on what we do is we try to give some gentle guidance to the funding request committee. So basically what happens is you've got to keep the request below 25,000 because anything over 25,000 if you get over 20 has to be voted by paper ballot. All right. So what's happened in the past several times is a request request gets so big that you have to move it out of your list and that gets voted separately. Okay. But the other thing that we've said or you have given us is the amount that you had last year, which was 23,000 something. Was that? 22,160. Okay. 22,160. So you've got some room under the $25,000 cap. So even if you went 10% you'd still be under the 25,000. Okay. So that's basically what we said in the past but you have to see what the requests are when they come in. Right. They haven't come in yet, but I don't see a problem. Right. It's just that you've got to keep it below the 25,000. That's the biggest thing. And you are allowed to make increases if people ask them, just keep it down. Great. And then you also could throw out some requests if the people didn't come in to represent themselves and talk about their request. I mean, that is a thought. I think that's happened in the past that somebody hasn't come in like the Red Cross that was in for a number of years and they never reached out to put their name in it for a request. So that does happen. Just don't automatically assume, oh, that was in last year. You know, if they don't ask for it this year, well, maybe they're out. Make sure there's a contact. Yes. Do they actually come in each year? They would make, they usually come in to you. We have nothing to do with it. It has to be a new application. Okay, great. Yeah, they have to have a new application. And this is why between September 11th and 12th, I emailed everyone that submitted last year the application and everything for this year. So it goes to everyone. In addition, there were two organizations that had previously asked for funding, did not last year. I sent those two organizations emails as well in the event that last year, some of it was lack of staffing. They just didn't have time to do it. In the event that they do have time this year, I wanted to make sure they had an opportunity. So I'm hopeful, because one of them did at least respond, I'm hopeful that perhaps they may actually submit this year. So, and then a lot of times when I send these out, I get a kickback of an out of office. Someone's not there. Now there's a new person. So I changed my spreadsheet. I send it to that person. So, we do our best. And then their deadline is October 20th to get those applications back to me. You all will meet after those applications come in. What we agreed to last year was typically I will play some follow up phone calls. In the past, they've tried to do those phone calls right before the deadline. I tend to take a lot of time, or I tend to take time off around, it happens to be this date because that's my wedding anniversary. So I'm usually off around this time. So I told the committee last year that what I would prefer to do is let the deadline come. I can communicate with people after we'll have a slight grace period for people to maybe respond. Because what happened last year at least over half of them came in in that final like two days. So they come flying in right up at the deadline. So to me, it's kind of better if we know we have in our back pocket a couple of day deadline, I can follow up with them that Monday, put phone calls in, if we don't hear back, then we don't hear back. And typically if they're requesting a different amount, typically an increase, ideally they address the committee and explain to you what, why they're requesting the different amount. But I guess I can just put an application in. They can and it's up to the committee last year. As they're evaluating, it's gonna be up to them whether they believe that they want to provide a different amount or they may default back. I think there was one last year, they defaulted back to the previous because there was no real information as to why there was a change in the request. So it's up to the committee. So I have a request for this year's committee and that is that you all ask the people who are applying about the floods this year and how they, one, affected their bottom line, their finances and two, how they affected their activities. And that could be of interest for a number of reasons for something like the Kellogg Hubbard Library, which we, which doesn't come to you guys, I realize we vote on that independently. But for them, obviously their activities have been reduced since the flood. They've been reduced for everybody who contributes to them. That's just forced my year. But for the Montpelier Senior Activity Center, I've been told, and I'm looking into this, I'm having conversations about this, so take this with a grain of salt. But I've been told that because the city of Montpelier has taken over some of the space that the Senior Activity Center has used in the past, that the number of activities that they've been able to offer to people, to members, have decreased. And I mean, Montpelier, the city owns the center there, is my understanding, and they lost a lot of room in City Hall, so I can understand that they might wanna do that. On the other hand, should we as a town be paying as much when the offerings for our residents are less, when less of the physical space is available to our residents?  No, that's right. They're not coming to us anyway. Yeah. That's right. That's right, they're coming to us. Okay, so we'll have that conversation. So anyway, but that may be relevant to some of the folks who are coming to you guys. Yeah, something to look into further. Yeah. And if you know anything about what's happening at MSAC, please let me know. I'm planning to have some more conversations in the next week. We have out a newsletter today, Carl. Okay. And they said that registrations are down about 50% for classes. Okay. They have not hired a new director, they're on a hiring freeze. And so they're doing less and they're finding less involvement since COVID. Yeah, okay. And they're definitely what you noted about space that other city employees' offices have had to move into that space, but their main meeting room and a number of their classrooms are still available. So they're still going, but they're just not getting as much involvement. Okay, thanks for that update. Interesting. Okay, do you have any questions? No. Oh, good. That would make it easy. Not that complicated, really. But if you do have any questions, just reach out to us at any time. Yeah. Thank you. Yeah, especially for new people on the committee. Yeah, I have no idea what I'm doing. Yeah, that's okay. No question on that. Yeah. I just want to say thank you. I don't say thank you enough to all you good people for sticking in there. No, you're not that good. You're right, Seth. Some of us are good. Speak for yourself, Seth. First good people, thank you. I appreciate it. Those that don't want to accept a new director, that's their reason. No, but it was for the fall fund. Thank you for the appreciation. Now, I'm very much appreciated. There are times in our lives we can step in and other times we can't.  As and Gina, thank you. Thank you for allowing us being so organized. I really appreciate it. All right. Hey, we're all in this together and you guys are all stepping up too. This is a lot of leg work. This sheet here is a lot of stuff. This is not just, so thank you guys. All right. So you're all set? I'm all set. Okay. Good. But like I said before, we're always able to answer questions. That's great. Thanks, sir. Okay. All right. So thank you for you. Have a good night. Bye-bye. Take care. So the next item is conversation with Down Street Housing Community Development. And this is about the assignment of the revolving loan fund balance, which we've been kicking around for a few years and we've never really used it. It's money that's come into that fund from the Sandy Pines payments, actually. Certain percentages come to kick back to the town and we haven't done anything with it. So there you go. The last meeting of the revolving loan fund committee was in 2018, so. Yeah, but then the committee disbanded and we just had one person that was a point person for that. And is she here tonight? No, Rebecca's not here. We've, I think she's pretty bogged down with her new position of the LCT. And we were connected, I was connected with Down Street by the state, Cassie Bell. Okay. Rebecca is aware that we were reaching out and this would have been, Rebecca would have just been bringing Down Street here to meet with you. So we just moved forward with that. Yeah, Rebecca is doing a lot of work with it. Yeah. Yeah. Okay, yes?  I mean, is it, is it, do? We haven't done anything with it. Do residents apply for it or is this something that we use to build? The problem with it is, okay, so we haven't done that because we're not a bank. So it's very difficult for us to have the resources to vet people that want to borrow the money. So this is kind of why we've been kicking around because we don't really know what we're gonna do with it. So we're giving money that we can. We've been giving money that we could lend out if we had the capabilities of doing that. To vet it. Yeah, to vet it. And we have lent it out and we lent it out to Sandy Pines and they paid it back over what, 15 year period or something like that? It was a long period. Since before I was on this board, maybe 20 years. So they just finished paying that off and we have this money that's come back in that we're obligated to do something in the spirit of the original gift to us. Was this for community development? Yeah, it's got various requirements. Right, no I know it was it. Hybrid has that, we have a billion dollars. What is the town that's not in the banking business to vet and or administrate it? In hybrid we've vetted and administrated it. But they've got a million dollars to work with. Well, we didn't though, they grew up. It was just 1988. Because you get interest on the money and you get analysis of people don't pay but we did vet it and we was an attorney to close the deals and so on and so forth and to my knowledge it probably just maybe one person failed to pay us back. We did find some of the fair amount of money on the East Machine-Man era putting in. Years ago, I remember what happened. It was probably 15 years ago. Okay. So it has been used at various times. Right, but we've decided over the last five years as our revolving loan fund committee decided that it wasn't really excited about doing its work. I mean, that's maybe not quite the word for it, but I think that's just like St. John's or as a committee or group of people overseas it too. And they fear I'll have problems with it. And we decided as a select board with our town staff we didn't want to be doing that work. So we've been looking for someone else to be administering the money for us. If we have to do someone. What's that? T-bills. This money has to go one of two places to down street or back to the state. It has to go out into the community. It's not our money to all the interest that is earned goes back into this fund. It's just a ledger ride. It's technically supposed to be in its own account. It was never in its own account for the time. But it is sitting on, it's cash nor account. Right now, but it's not, it's in a, there's a schedule every month that it's like, how much is it? $263,700. So we're authorized to lend it out to others in our community for community development, for housing. We aren't authorized to lend it to the federal government. And the goal of the select board when last this was discussed in 2022 was for this to be used for housing at the time down street was essentially reorganizing. So it was not really eligible at the time for us to transfer the funds there. Down street is now eligible and approved by the state to receive funds. Conduit for this money. Maybe this would be a good time to invite the chair of the way or the director of home ownership from Down Street to come to the committee and tell us about how you might promote affordable housing in East Montpelier with this chunk of change. Yes, so we got it brought back in-house last year. We got approved last year for it.  Health and safety issues. And we've been marketing. We actually just did a mailer with you guys and we're reaching out to everyone, all of the town clerks within our service areas which are Washington, Orange and LaMoyle County. And we can do grants also depending on where their income is. It's kind of on a scaled income-based thing. And we're actually working with one of your constituents right now on a rehab loan. So, yeah. Could you also help with the people that are needing to repair post-blood? Are these funds? So in back to the ARPA discussion from the public hearing, this was a very important topic to help people that to help cover these costs that other options are not helping, this may be a benefit as well. Yes, yeah. We actually just got approval about a month ago from ACCD who kind of oversees the state program approving that we can use it for people that have been affected by floods. So, but the money that we would turn over to you that doesn't necessarily get used in these months later. I mean, how does that work? Yeah, I think the normal agreement is like for the first year to three years we would use it for people within East Montpelier. And then after that it would be opened up to our service counties. So, say you open it up, would an East Montpelier resident get priority?  And then two people apply, one from East Montpelier, one from somewhere else. Would the East Montpelier resident get priority or would it just be judged on the criteria that you would apply to anybody? Yes, we actually have a large enough capital right now. And we go in for an enhancement every year with ACCD where we would actually be able to probably service both of those clients. Yeah, yeah. So right now we're going in for about 20 new loans every year with ACCD to issue those loans out to people within our service counties. So if we turned over to you $263,700, how long do you think it would take you to get it out into the community working for us? In East Montpelier, I bet we could probably do five to 10 loans depending on the demand a year. OK. And those are up to $20,000, you said? Yes. And is it usually at the high end of that? Or where does it fall? Yes, unfortunately the cost of construction and materials has gone way up. And so more so than not, those are actually coming in higher, the estimates, because we have to bring it up to housing quality standards, which is a federal government regulation. And so a lot of those scope of works that we do are coming in higher than the $20,000. And then we're really looking at those health and safety issues. So as it gets paid off, it flows back into our account? No. No. We don't know what we're having. We are transferring these funds. It would pull back into a down-trade account, right? Yes. For use in East Montpelier and other communities in the area after three years. So it's never a time that we could reinstate it into East Montpelier, if we decide to do so? I don't believe so. At this point, remember what I've been told by the state? East Montpelier has been out of compliance for an extended period of time, which is why the choice is that these funds need to be returned to the state now or transferred to an organization like Downstreet. These requirements for that money is that it'd be used for something. I mean, we used to get into big argues about it in Hardwick about, well, one person would say, well, we like it. It's in the bank. It's good. And I'm like, you know, you've got to use it. If you don't use it, you're going to lose it. No, I just understand. I just was thinking, oh, in the future, maybe there'll be some worthy project in East Montpelier that we want to target specifically. But I would imagine we could. I don't know what the process was to get this established. But I would imagine at that point we could go to the state and try again to create a new fund. As an example, if you wanted to build, say, senior housing somewhere and you found the land, say you had 23 acres, and you found the land, and you had the plan all put together and everything, you go to the community development group and you ask them for funding. And you go into this just like every other town that wants money in Burlington and Barry and Montpelier and everything, and you get your money. But Hardwick's got money several times. 500,000 a year, 500,000 a year. Yeah, but not directly for the town. It was for like a little more housing partnership. They've got some serious funding to do mobile homework, to do low-income apartments, and things like that. Well, this sounds like this is a good way for us to get into compliance really quickly. It's a funnel of money to Downstreet. Well, it's a good choice. Yeah, it's a good thought. Why not? Go back. Bye-bye. Can I ask a couple ignorant questions? Sure. Remember, I'm taking a lot of Benadryl, so my brain isn't quite where it should be. But so you're saying that because we haven't been in compliance, we have to give the money out essentially. And is that going to close out the revolving loan fund and there's not going to be money coming back into it? Yes, that's right. That's right. Oh, so I guess that would that leads to my second question is would there be any benefit? We can hear you again. Poor thing. So my second question was if there was no necessity for the loans for coming back, is there some necessity maybe in the community for people to maybe potentially receive grants instead of loans? Like are there some people that are so low income that could benefit from receiving, for applying for money that didn't necessarily have to be paid back for home improvement? It sounds like that's what you do. Yeah. That's where I got out of what you said. Absolutely, yeah. OK. Loans and or grants. Yeah, yeah, right. Yeah, that's my understanding. Absolutely. OK, great. Thanks for clarifying. That's what I thought. But then I wasn't sure if it was just loans or also grants for people that couldn't necessarily afford to pay back. Yeah, yeah. And we also do deferred loans as well for people. Yeah. In the middle income or whatever. Correct. Yeah. They have to meet certain levels of income. Yes, yeah. We do income debt to income ratios. And yeah, anyone that would put them over 45 we would do a deferred. Yeah. So have we seen any paperwork for you and what we signed under to assign this money to you? No, I think that once approval, it would go back to the state and they would read. Yeah, we can work with Cassie Bell at the state once I have the motion. And that's something Michelle and I have to figure out then how we facilitate getting the funds transferred. So I'm wondering how to word the motion so that we specify that the money will be for three years reserved for East Montpelier residence under the stewardship of Down Street. Should we just authorize the town administrator to do the transfer under those conditions? Would that work? Town administrator or annual treasurer? OK. It could be Michelle, actually. OK. So you have to assign the funds to Down Street, I believe. But we've got some sort of over the next few months some sort of publicity or something that is money available for East Montpelier residence. So I think most people know about this or? That was going to be my next question, was we have a meeting room space. I'm sure that we could maybe work together to even schedule if there's an info session. Hey, come to this. Maybe Down Street could be here. Yeah. Certain time period. We can work through that and working with the town clerk as well, but we can maybe get the word out. To our residents and? Absolutely, 100%. Yeah. And we can do more un-blow stuffers or advertising. We did receive some money from ACCD to do more marketing around the program in general. So we're hoping to continue that. I think the key is for East Montpelier residence to take advantage of this is to get the word out to the residents. That's important. Right. OK. So we should make a motion. Your motion? I move to authorize the town administrator and the town treasurer to work with Down Street to assign the balance of the town revolving loan fund to Down Street to be used in at least the first three years for loans and grants for affordable housing in East Montpelier. How's that? It works. OK. I'll second the motion. Oh, is there any further discussion? Hearing none, all those in favor, please say aye. Aye. The ayes appear to have it, they do have it. I don't have enough information to go completely public with this yet, but speaking of publicity of Down Street stuff, stay tuned for a Down Street person to be on the radio and at the local range talking about home ownership as soon as he gets authorization from the powers that be. Or maybe you are the power that bees. I'm one of them. OK. Absolutely. Is there authorization for that? Can we talk about it publicly or not? Not yet, but my approval is there. I'm just waiting for the second approval. Yeah. OK. And we also hold in our marketing director as well. But yeah. Very good. So to be announced soon. OK. Sounds like that's good. Yeah. Good decision to make and it's going to help out a lot of people. So that's a good thing. OK. Thanks for your work and thanks for coming in. Yeah. Thank you for. Thank you so much. Yeah. The meeting is going to be stimulating. Yeah. I got to go feed some kids. Thank you guys so much for inviting me. Thank you for coming in. Thank you. Appreciate it. Thank you. Take care. So the next item is discussed to our public hearing. And as you all are aware of, we have some requests, requests, and ideas that we probably ought to zip through. Gina sent out a long email about these items. And I hope you all read it. You're talking about what's in the select board report, the memo? Yeah. That was in an email. They've been just items. So if you want to go down through them or I don't know how you want to start. I just listed here what was mentioned by those attendants. The townlister made a few requests that I think there's just more. One, the fire-rated filing cabinet. I would just like to get a little more information. Those are extremely heavy and extremely expensive. We tend to take the approach in the town office of important documents or house in the vault. The vault is considered our. Yeah, fireproof cabinet. I'm not really sure that that's a worthwhile expenditure for the town. Mm-hmm. Yeah. And I don't know why I was thinking about it as soon as I read this. Why can't they store their documents in our vault? Well, or the other question is, if they're so important, it would be more cost-effective to seek off-site storage that has secure storage through Secure Shred, who we are already kind of working with on that. That could safeguard documents. It's just they're very heavy. Even when I reached out to office environments, there's a lot of stipulations on even who they will sell those to because of the weight of those. You can't have any steps. You can't. Our ramp was a little questionable as to whether they would even consider that OK to get it in here. Well, what do I sag? So anyway, the laptop was something we had already discussed at a meeting, and you had already denied that request. So I think that one is already resolved. And the large format printer scanner, the scanning of the Mylar's is really being held up by that. That machine is currently a gigantic brick. It's not working. It was moved here for a period of time. I don't know what has gone wrong with it. I have spent a number of hours on it already and basically had to drop that on my priority list. So I'm currently struggling with the cost just to get Canon out here to look at it. And whether that's even worth it, Canon told me while it's a 2019 machine and that doesn't seem old. That's very old for technology. So the words of the Canon rep were you could spend upward $2,000 on it and not have a functioning machine when Canon leaves. So never got used very much. It was used to scan these. That was it, to scan the Mylar's. So they want the Mylar's to, do you want to scan them and produce full-size maps? Right. You want to just go staples and have them made or go to a copy center? It gets difficult because some of these Mylar's are very old. They're in the vault. You don't really, when you're removing them out, yeah. So Rosie and I have discussed some different options. Another option is to repair that machine or replace it. But again, I, you know, yes. This has been out of service for how long? Since Bruce left. And what have they been doing as a replacement or in lieu of or not in lieu of? I believe when they need to photocopy them, they just make it pieces. Yeah, do it in pieces and tape them together. I understand. I'm just curious on, it's been. They've been probably doing sexualizing, like she said. Yeah. Making, tape them together. But it is, it is critical? Well, ideally what would be nice, especially with the old ones that we have in the vault, it would be great to digitize those. Digital records are great to have. It's just really a matter. I did get some pricing from Canon. I just, it, again, fell off of my radar a bit. I think we're given that. Well, we could lease one. I would be more of a proponent of leasing with a service contract, as opposed to the problem. But this one was, I thought, I was hoped, I thought it had a service contract. Every other machine does. It was not purchased with a service contract. I think we're given it or something. It was a grant. It was a grant. It was a grant, yeah. Zoe. Oh, yeah. Oh, I was just going to say that another option could be, some people are using like high quality digital cameras, or not even high quality, but digital cameras for archiving now. And then you can piece, take section, take photographs of sections, and then, you know, tape them together in the computer. Just in case, you know, it's probably pretty a big machine that Canon. And it might be more cost effective in the long run to use a digital camera. Maybe. Just another option to outsource this. I think you can find something. I mean, I even have a device that will take a picture. It can act like an online whiteboard and stuff, but you can also just take pictures of documents. So an important thing with the MyLars is not to get any of the parallax from a camera lens, but the software might be good enough these days that it can adjust for that. I don't know. I've seen indications of that just for stuff for my phone. But I don't know the specs. But it's worth looking into. I've just taken my designs for my house and septic system and all that. I just took it down at Staples and said, hey, copy these for me. How many MyLars are we talking about? I don't know. But she said a priority, though, was the ones done in the last year or two so they could get those in the file somewhere.  Or no, I have machines on some of them. They say it's $1,000 to fix them. I'm like, OK, come fix it. And then we have it. It could be something simple. But they don't know the fixes. You don't know. But they may. They might come in here and it's five minutes. Oh, it was at a level and trip something and blah, blah.  I want to get pricing on a new one. I was in the process of doing that and then the information got stale. And then, like I said, it fell off the radar. I'd like to get pricing on what would it be if we replaced it and leased one. That being said, too, we also have very limited real estate in this office. It does take up a lot of room. I think it's worth looking into what other options as well. Maybe there for us to digitize these, if that is the main thing we're using them for. We don't tend to print plans. And I don't believe that was what I believe the Inc ran out because people were printing to it by accident. I don't believe they were printing to. I took care of that situation. But I don't believe that was really what it was being used for. So it just seems like an awfully big machine to have to just scan if there's another option for us. Yeah, yes, relevant. If the priority is to preserve the things in the Mylar, I think that that machine is possibly becoming out of date for preserving in terms of digitalized digitalization. It's the $1,515,000 that I want just to do it quickly. I think most people use these really for printing, more than scanning. And if we needed large weekend, well, I would say we could go to capital copy not right now. But they're drawing boarders. Oh, good. So there will be an option there. There they are. The only thing Rosie doesn't like is Avenue wants to take things off site to do. She's nervous about that. But if it's all my own. Agreed. Oh, there's one there. A bit of it. Anyway, yeah, so there are options to print. I don't know that we would. Yeah, it's fine. So anyway, that's what's going on with that. Yeah, so part of that decision making, it would be helpful to know if this is a one time process for digitizing existing mylars, it'd be helpful to know how many of those are. If there's 100 of them and it costs five bucks a piece to do them somewhere else, let's take them out of here, do them in a week or a day or whatever it takes. Yeah, yeah, right. And it does take a lot of room to your point. Yeah. It does. A little summer fragile. Yeah, we're tight. Yeah, right. OK, sounds good. Sounds like you're on top of it. So thank you for that. Yeah. So Jenny mentioned during the meeting, Jenny Callan, about nonprofits needing help. And as you recall, I think only Twin Valley, they came to us. It's been a long time now with ARPA funding and a request. I think it would be helpful if we put up a public request if the board would like to consider use of ARPA funds or see what need is in the community from our nonprofits to have them come to a certain meeting in the future. So I wanted to float that idea with you. You know, Twin Valley, that was just by chance that Gene Choria had reached out to us. Right. And came to a meeting. That situation probably only got fixed. And I think it did. But that doesn't mean that they may not have other need, along with any other organization in town. I think putting a public post out if you are interested in potentially allocating some of those funds to local nonprofits could be helpful. OK. So we can target a future meeting. We can. We probably should put it out as soon as later. I raise the question of how do we get this information out to them. And what I heard back last time was, hey, we had that hearing. So they had an opportunity. Yeah, but maybe it wasn't specific enough. That's what I feel like, a very specific. Are you a local nonprofit? Yeah. And it'll be a front porch forum post, posting on the website, something like that. Come to this meeting is what I'm envisioning and talk to us. If someone thought the public hearing was more for residents and not for nonprofits. I think that's a good idea. And you mentioned you'd already, the day that we had our last meeting or the day before, you'd already blasted out to the folks submitting to the funding request study committee. But would it be, if it's email, was it a simple email list that you could blast out this information to them too? About a new meeting? I think that's very broad. A lot of those organizations are not directly, I mean, that the gist I got from the public hearing was specifically speaking about East Montpelier. Most of those organizations are not East Montpelier. So I was more planning just a very blanket front porch forum type post that's targeted to the community. Yeah, I think it's a good idea. And I think that may get confusing to mix this with the funding request. I really don't want people to get confused about what they're doing. Right. I think it's a good idea. But I think we should do it. Doesn't hurt. You're exhausting all of the avenue. Everybody had the opportunity to come and put a proposal in or mention it. And if they don't, they don't. But Gina's point is more specific to the nonprofits. I agree. So why not? So what would that be? Would that be like this last time? Or would it be a hearing in association with a select board meeting? No, I think it needs to be specific requests and not have to be anything. I was just meaning it more of an agenda item. We're going to target maybe we target the second October meeting or something like that to give people time. Or maybe we go into a November meeting. No, I do it sooner. I'd like it sooner versus later because then we don't know. One organization could show up with one request or 10 could. And you're needing to hear everyone out and make a decision. So we don't know. The dollar magnitude could be that it's impossible to know what a request could be right now. I think making an effort is important. I think we should do it sooner than later. Could you tell in that context, could you tell us about this last bullet point in the select board memo about the ARPA funds needing to be spent or committed via executed contract and grant programs or not? It's everything that I've been saying when we've talked about this. And I happened to have coffee with Katie Buckley last week. And ARPA came up and she said, yes, the federal government is being more specific now and ensuring that everyone is very clear that when we say committed, it doesn't mean we're going to spend it on this. It means you have a contract with Joe Smith that says you're going to spend $50,000 on something. It's an executed contract that you is legally binding to both parties. So some of these ideas, while they sound great to create a grant program to do, number one, who's going to do it? Number two, how quickly is it all going to get done? And number three, that really wasn't what ARPA was designed for. It wasn't to set up grant programs. So I'm confused. It was in response to COVID. I'm confused then because we were just talking about having a meeting to bring in nonprofits to actually give them money. That's giving them money just like we did for a specific project. Yeah. And do they have to do that project within the ARPA? You're giving them money just like CV5. Yes, by 26, spend it. They have to spend it within the time. Yeah, by 26, two years from the date they could have been stipulated to within the. Yeah. And do we want to put in a clawback provision then if they haven't started by a certain amount of time? Or is that the government close it back? The clawback is really. That's not going to work. By December 21st, 31st of 2024, we have limited time here. We talked about that CV5 work because we did not want it in a situation where they were not following up on it. And the federal government asked for the money back from us. And we couldn't get it back from CV5. So if we're going to be giving this out to other organizations, we need to be thinking about the same dynamic. If they don't give it back to us, then we're going to get clawed back from us. Yeah. They're going to claw from us. Let me ask Katie Buckley about the specifications for non-profit. Yeah. Well, let's just see. OK, so do you want to reach out to Katie Buckley? Yeah. Let me confirm with her first what we need to be worried about there. Yeah. And then we'll go from there. OK. I wouldn't know how the profits do we have in East Montpellier or in the dead that are Twin Valley, but other than that. Oh, I don't know. I mean, I actually don't think so. Well, I know a dairy farm right around the corner. That's non-profit.  No, I try to operate. Probably. We probably have scores of them that we aren't aware of, like Michael Bender's Mercury Project. How often does that come up here? Yeah, yeah. I think it works internationally as a non-profit working on mercury safety. It's probably something that we don't know about, but I don't think there's scores. Well, we can always scrub it. It needs to be something. Yeah. And looking at battery designs and whatever. Yeah. I think ideally, if you're coming with a very specific request, we need to ADA enhancements to a building. And we're going to do it in the next three months. This is what it's going to be. It's going to cost X amount of money. It's going to be sound in the Peace Corps. Yeah. But let me check in on the specifications for that. We're not going to daily dally around waiting for people to come up with ideas. That's why it should be a very short. Right. Well, keep in mind, really, the crux of ARPA funds was in response to COVID. And it was to help municipalities with expenditures and to improve. That's why we're spending money on IT infrastructure. It was to help people get into, you know, make improvements to their infrastructure. That was the point of that. The longer sewer was one of the primary ones. Yeah, absolutely. So I had an infrastructure improvement I thought about since then that we've been talking about for a while and have not made any decision on because of the cost. And that is speeding is an issue perennially here. And we've talked about getting one of those radar-connected signs that shows how fast they're going that apparently has an effect in slowing down cars. And we've been stymied by what we've been told as a cost. But I've seen such small ones now out there that some of them aren't much bigger than speed limit signs themselves. And I've got to think that the cost has probably come down on those, but who knows? But anyway, that seems like a worthwhile investment of ARPA money. We keep hearing from townspeople they want cars to go slower. Here's an opportunity. Yeah, it's true. And a lot of towns have now. Yeah. A lot. So you could take that. If you could offload something within the town budget, you could use town budget money to buy one of those. Yeah, right. Well, I think you could buy something like this and directly charge it to ARPA, absolutely. This is actually on my list. I would like to bring Washington County to discuss ideas for speeding. We're currently looking into, at this point, it'll be next summer, but speed bumps for Center Road. Center Road is easier to address because it is a 25-mile-per-hour section of road. County Road, I believe, is our bigger problem. It's more difficult to address when it's a 40-mile. I've been passed on County Road three times in the last month. So it's a problem. I drive County Road quite a bit, so I'm well aware of it. Well, getting back to Carl's idea, that's actually a pretty good idea. A lot of towns are putting in a lot.  Yeah. We would likely need a few on County Road. Yeah. And these ones in the past, they've been portable, and you haul them around with a trailer. But the new smaller ones, maybe we can just put them on a pole. No, they are. No, I would rather permanent. Oh, permanent. Somebody will do something to a temporary one. You just put them up, people, that's a third day on County Road, you can ignore it. Which is the question why I would like to speak with Washington County to determine what the long-term impact is of those, because, yes, in my experience in a prior where I used to live, nobody even saw them at a certain point in time. Yes. Yes. We put it in 25 mile an hour. Yes. You put it in 40 mile an hour. OK, let me see if I can just put it at 55. It seems like the Washington County, though, on sitting there and giving people tickets might work. I saw someone pulled over in East Knot Pylir. It was on Cherry Tree Hill. Yeah, it really. They were, yeah. No. No, I had happened to have seen that same deputy patrolling earlier that day, and then later was on Cherry Tree Hill, and that deputy had a car pulled over with their lights on. Well, that is effective. Only people when giving people tickets is effective. I've only seen it on Cherry Tree Hill as well. The only place in East Knot Pylir. It was probably the same day. Well, let's finish up this agenda item. Do you just need you there? So I will follow up with Katie to find out what specifically we need to make sure that the nonprofits do before we get any invitations. So then we will go from there. Yeah, sounds good. It's just something that it is important, and we all knew that from dealing with CV fiber, that it's this isn't just a blank check to do with, you know, there's definitely stipulations about it. And the last thing we want to do is commit funds at then. So before we move, are we going to move off from Mark? No, I wanted to finish it up. We have the housing concerns addressed by Ms. Keevitt. Carpenter. It's carpenter. It's a change of the name. Oh. The wrong one, I. Yeah. We benefit from the down street discussion, so we're shelving. I think, yeah. I think that's perfect. Yeah. Me too. And a significant amount of funds. Yeah, I just want to touch on it. We've addressed the concerns. We definitely have. So I think we're done with the ARPA. I just wanted to mention that we're having a CIC meeting sometime. Was it Tuesday? Tuesday? I hope you don't make it. But the thing is, well, on the agenda item is capital expenditures, which is part of this is, you know, we were talking about paying funding some of the costs of the town of Rard. Yeah. And we're supposed to go to that meeting with some kind of ideas and direction from the select board. So I was just wondering, do you have any direction? The CIC is the Capital Improvement Committee. Yes. Well, that's a thought. It's a possibility, but we do have the meeting on the wetlands before the 830 and Friday. The town garage is technically not even on that plan. No, because we've never filled out a form to give it to. I did last year. Last year you did, but I said you didn't. A couple of years ago. So I don't know. Anyway, so I always tend to go to this meeting Why don't you fill it out? No, it's definitely a possibility. Why don't you fill it in? We did already. I've filled out a form. She did last year, right after I started. Is there anything else that we needed to think about? As far as capital costs? Sorry, I kind of jumped in on this one. Yeah, you did kind of this. But it kind of needs a direction from our meeting. Yeah. Well, highway grew up. You're going to, right? Well, you're going to be gone. No? I will be gone. I will be at town fair. I told the chairman I could not make that meeting. OK. We can get you to eat a lot. I'm like a deer in a headlight now. So besides the highway garage, which I guess you haven't discussed, have you discussed that? Well, they don't have enough information to discuss that right now, honestly. I mean. OK. And it's not a capital improvement. The upkeep on the garage going forward for years would be on, could go in front of that committee. Building of the garage is not a topic for the capital improvement committee. It's keeping the maintenance of the garage would be aligned on. So capital cost is constructed at the capital cost. It sure is. It's going to be more than a couple of years, and it's over a significant amount of money. Well, if we take a bond down, I guess. That's right. We would have to. Well, I'm new to the committee, but it's usually how much allocation of funds that we need for the sidewalks? How much do we put aside every year for the X amount of roads for this building? So we're going to need. Or how much are we going to put aside for this building if we decide to build a new one? How much are you going to put aside for paving the roads? That's a capital cost. That's capital cost. Right. My point is you're building a garage within the next 18 months. So you're going to allocate $900,000 to put that in the capital. Well, it is. It's a little late if we're going to do it quickly. Well, that's my point. But it is normal. That is a capital cost. I agree if we were to put a building in 10 years. Well, when we started this thought of the capital improvements, and we'd put in that, then you would have a fund. I'm not disagreeing with that. That's my point. Input and slight forward input review, whatever that is. So that's me. That's me. OK. I'll try to make it late if I need to get something. Any other capital costs? I mean, Tamville is due to be repaved. So we applied for a grant this year. We did not get that grant. Guthrie agreed to punt it for a year. We'll try to apply for a grant again next year. But certainly that's something that could be on that plan. It is. It is a thing. Yeah, it's also technically something we could use. But I think that's part of what they need to do in this process is look at the dates. Some of the dates are line them up with what we think is really going to happen. So then their plan will flow out. So that's initially what happened when we started that plan, was we tried to estimate when all these costs were going to happen. And we got a pretty pessimistic view of the paving at that point. So the paving was put in. There's a lot of money in the paving line right now because we haven't done the replacement or the repaving on the timeline that we were suggested. The paving lasted longer. Mike Green said, oh, it's only got a lot of seven years. Well, some of the roads have been 12 years. And it depended on the road. Yeah, it depends on the road. And also because we just did shim and overlay, it worked really well. The roads were horrible when I got in them. It's like Gordon. Long term planning is like that was really. It's an estimate. You know, you're like, yeah.  That's why we wanted a light on them for the sidewalks. So on the ARPA funding, at one point some months ago, we were saying, you know, we could probably think most of that into expenses that we've already incurred. And is that still an option for us? I have learned something new that. Well, we did use that. I mean, the vast majority, 176,000 of it, we used to cover. And really that money is currently kind of sitting in the ARPA bucket, which I need to get the treasurer to work on shifting that over into the capital reserve. So I mean, we've already done some of that. That's why I brought things like ash tree management, that we should be spending. But that's only going to get us for this year unless we could somehow contract for the 20 fiscal 26. Pretty hard to do. But, you know, it gets, yeah, it starts to get sticky. Yeah, yeah. So I've had the sense that we've been holding back on doing more of that because we wanted to give room for using this one-time monies for big projects that we wouldn't otherwise have. But if we don't have a lot of those at the town garage, slides too far into the future, we don't get a lot of big applications from the nonprofits and so on. We still have capacity within the budget to absorb the ARPA funds that way. Well, I think you can do a go-around where you spend the money, you take your general expense money that you have, and you shift it. We talked about that to us. Yes, it's a shell game. It's a shell game. I think you can still do that. We can. So that's a fallback plan in my estimation. But right now. Ideally, it would be nice to start moving forward on other items because at some point then, we're just building a bucket that, once again, we're not really doing anything right. But the highway garage is kind of on the top of my life. But this is a highway garage and it's a town office. Yeah, that's a little far off. But I mean, for the CIC committee. Yes. The thing is, like you said, is how much money is going to cost so you don't really have any idea. We bought land over here that we could use for a town office. So we have to land to build a town office if we so chose. But the highway garage is more of a priority, I think, because that building is definitely needing to be bigger. We've established some priorities there. The town office will get us by for a while. So that's kind of what I think. Except if you buy a giant wildlife printer that you can't fit in this building otherwise. You are so wise. I didn't think of that. That's really a major issue why we need a new building or not. Oh, that's true.  Head of the class. A stew. A stew in frugal at the same time. Realistically, while I'm putting a town garage as a higher priority, the building, certainly, is small, isn't sufficient really to effectively hold the staff as it is today. All of our IT equipment resides in a basement, which is concerning. I need it to clean. So there are certainly reasons why, yes, it would certainly be smart to get into a different building to have our IT equipment above ground. Do we want to look at feasibility for that? I mean, certainly we could. But what do you mean, making one building? Well, what we should have done is when the fire department proposed their building, we should have put it start bigger. It's not even a possibility to do a town garage slash town hall offices. Is that just where the garage is located would not be? No, it's not a good location. Where the potential for the garage is going to be? We're building the garage. You couldn't put a town.  But it's way up in East Bulfock. In Templeton Road. Where's the potential for the garage? This is about that. Where the town garage is. Oh, in Templeton Road? Yes. It's too far out of the way. So that's a wetland issue? They claim it is. I don't see how it is. We're going to know on Friday. On the state map, it appears to be a wetland. I take that. I walk on that trail sometimes. Yeah, it seems kind of hot. But oh, OK, I thought it was somewhere here. No, no, no. No, there it is. So we have the property that Guthrie is now moving off of. Yes. And that could be an add-on for town garage or an adjunct building that we could use for storage that town highway equipment could go in that we're only using seasonally. There's that thought that that would be a really good idea. But the town garage, the town office building, potentially could be right across here where we bought that piece of land that we have grab at the time of the year. Yes. Yeah, we have land that we retained out of the Pearl Purchase. We sold our side of it and we kept part of it. I don't know why I didn't realize where the actual, I thought the location was here somewhere. OK, we also have a possibility of if we just have two little room here, we could put an addition. Not really. Not really much space. Are we too close to the boundary lines? Well, it takes on water for one thing. And there's no really place to go with it. You know, you go with that way. I mean, where the picnic tables are? That'd be pretty hard to do. And like I said, a lot of water flows this way. The slope of the roof is this way. We get the IT equipment out of the basement. It'd be a pretty Mickey Mouse addition to put something on there that would actually work well over the long term in my estimation. There's not much room here. We barely have enough room for parking. So for our meeting, the CIC meeting, do we have a capital line item for a new town office? Why don't we just set aside some money every year, like take $10,000. You could. Let me go towards our architectural work. You had a maintenance line. That's not the same. I know it's not. The capital item is in the capital budget. And the animal is in the operational budget. So it should be in the capital budget. And once you put it in $10,000 in this year, it's not a raise in the budget next year because it's the same amount going in. So you get the $10,000 going in. What are you going to use it for? Architectural services, engineering services, wetland zone in Asia. Everything that we're doing right now in the town garage, we could be doing that. So do I get a consensus if they talk about that at the next meeting? Yes, sure. And the SMT goes over years. I mean, it's a long term project, but it's good to get it on. Because we didn't do it at the town highway garage. So I should probably still have to form? There was a form. Not for the town offices, too? There was one for both. Oh, great. Then we're all set. It was either on one form or two forms. It's probably been a year now, so. Yeah. OK. OK, so can I move the meeting along? Is that a thought? Please, please. So the town administrator report is next on the agenda. We've already discussed that there's a preliminary wetlands review on Friday. I'm planning to go. The first look. I've got like 45 minutes to be there. I don't know how long she plans to be there. I don't know. Just keep in mind, I had sent it to Seth. And so if there's three of you, that could. That's a meeting. Then we just need to notice it. Pose a challenge, so. We just post a notice somewhere. OK. The way we do with fire department meetings? Yeah. But I heard you were intending not to go, John?  I'm going. Yeah. So can we just ask you to post it the way that the fire department meetings? I've never noticed a fire department meeting when there's three of you. Well, because it's not. That's not your meeting. It's not our meeting. We're just attending the meeting. But the previous town administrator used to do for these things where we got together and discussed town business, but we weren't making any votes. He made a distinction between noticing them and warning them. And I don't remember the technicalities. He never briefed me on that. When I started here, you all attended a fire department meeting, and he did not do that, nor tell me that that was part of the process. We're not making any decisions here. We're just informational. I mean, I'd be curious to go and look and learn. But obviously, I know the number we do that was six. Well, you can do that because there's already three of us going, so four doesn't really matter. Yeah. Yeah. It's not a meeting, though. I mean. I'll put it in email. I'll do some research tonight or put it in email. OK, tomorrow. She led me related. She sees this very clearly. Well, we can always sit in our vehicles and get out one by one so that she doesn't have a herd of people to confront initially. What do you think of that idea? I think it's great. OK, so let's go on to the rest of the town administrator report. The FEMA site inspection for our four locations that qualify for site inspections will be on Tuesday. Guthrie will be fielding that with the FEMA people. OK. It will be an almost all day event from what I understand. They take a lot of measurements and all sorts. It's really, they'll ask him a lot of questions. They've already given him all the forms that includes all the questions they will be asking. And they will tour them on the locations. OK. Two zoning permits since, well, not since your last meeting, really since two meetings ago, a replacement of a deck in construction of an enclosed shop and carport. I am out of the office on Thursday, Friday, and Monday, and technically out as well on Tuesday and Wednesday of next week at Town Fair. OK. That's it. And I've looked over my VLCT emails. I have not seen anything about the legislative agenda.  I'm thinking that I misremember that that's something that comes up only every second year, so before each biennium. But if anybody, if I've missed any emails on that, and you guys have seen that in the business, no. OK. So that's nothing we need to worry about. OK. Is there anything else? Anything else? You've done a lot of talking about it. We've got a board of tax appeal meeting on Thursday. So select board members wearing a different hat. Yeah. Thursday? Yeah. What time is it? What time is it? I don't remember. I'll be working that night. I'm not coming. If it's sunny out. You weren't at the first one, so. I wasn't either. Yeah. So I think it's less important for even less appropriate. It's not appropriate to attend and sing with me. 6 o'clock, maybe 6 o'clock. I just want to know, no inappropriate. This will be a vote, right? Huh? Is there going to be a video option? I don't know. Oh my god, I hope so. Can we look into that? Can't she set up a Zoom? I would like to know. I remember technical difficulties with the Zoom last time. So yes, there was a Zoom last time. See if it's possible just because it's not going to be a two hour meeting. You just started screwing my happy hours. Thought you did? I'm just my happy hours. Look how grumpy he is. I know. You can tell. You don't look very happy. Yeah. That doesn't look real. Is that all of the time of the ministry to report? Not as that. OK. I move to adjourn. Second. Any further discussion? Oh no, you're not supposed to do that. All is a favor, please say aye. Aye. Aye.


Hi, my name is Shashi and I am going to help you to solve the following question. Question is, on comparing the ratios A1 upon A2, B1 upon B2 and C1 upon C2, find out whether the following pair of linear equations are consistent or inconsistent. Equations are 3 upon 2x plus 5 upon 3y is equal to 7. Other equation is 9x minus 10y is equal to 14. First of all, let us understand that the system of equations A1x plus B1y plus C1 is equal to 0 and A2x plus B2y plus C2 is equal to 0 is consistent if A1 upon A2 is not equal to B1 upon B2. The system of equations is consistent if A1 upon A2 is equal to B1 upon B2 is equal to C1 upon C2. The system of equations is inconsistent if A1 upon A2 is equal to B1 upon B2 is not equal to C1 upon C2. Let us start with the solution now. Rewriting the given equations, we get 3 upon 2x plus 5 upon 3y minus 7 is equal to 0 and 9x minus 10y minus 14 is equal to 0. These equations are of the form A1x plus B1y plus C1 is equal to 0 and A2x plus B2y plus C2 is equal to 0. Here we can see A1 is equal to 3 upon 2, B1 is equal to 5 upon 3, C1 is equal to minus 7, A2 is equal to 9, B2 is equal to minus 10 and C2 is equal to minus 14. Now A1 upon A2 is equal to 3 upon 2 multiplied by 9 which is equal to 1 upon 6. Now we will calculate B1 upon B2 which is equal to 5 upon 3 multiplied by minus 10 which is equal to minus 1 upon 6. Now we will calculate C1 upon C2 which is equal to minus 7 upon minus 14 equal to 1 upon 2. Now we can see A1 upon A2 is not equal to B1 upon B2. So the given system of equation is consistent. By the K idea we know that if A1 upon A2 is not equal to B1 upon B2 then given system of equations is consistent. So the given pair of equations is consistent. This is our final answer. This completes the session. Hope you understood the session well. Good bye and take care.


The final item of business is the member's business debate on motion 8629, in the name of Peter Chapman, on Hullodomor Remembrance Day 2017. The debate will be concluded without any questions being put, and I can ask those members who wish to take part in the debate to press the request to speak buttons now. I call on Peter Chapman to open the debate. First, I would also like to welcome the Ukrainian ambassador, Mrs Natalia Galibarenko, and the consul, Andrew Cusley, who are sitting up in the gallery there today. There are many friends of Ukraine, I think, in the chamber as well, sitting behind there, so welcome to you all. I also need to say sorry for keeping you waiting for so long for this debate. We have a habit of speaking far too long in this chamber and apologies for that, but we are here now. The ambassador and Andrew Cusley have to be thanked for bringing the topic of today's debate to my attention. Before I first met Andrew Cusley here in Edinburgh, I had never heard of Hullodomor before. I am sure that some of you speaking in today's debate had not before signing my motion, and that is why this debate is so important. It is important that this tragic event is highlighted to let the world know the cruelty and the viciousness of Stalin and his regime. Europe's recent history over the past 100 years or so is littered with war, conflict and death. The First World War resulted in about 16 million deaths, and during the Second World War, some 60 million people were killed worldwide. However, those conflicts are well known. The Hullodomor is almost unknown outside the Ukraine, and it is time for that to change. The Hullodomor is based on two Ukrainian words, hallowed, meaning hunger, starvation and famine, and mority, meaning to induce suffering to kill. And from 1932 to 1933, the Hullodomor famine took from 7 to 10 million innocent lives, many of them children. After the First World War and the fall of the Bolshevik regime, there was a downfall in the Russian Empire. That resulted in the abolition of censorship and the establishment of an independent Ukrainian state, and it allowed an astonishing renaissance of literary and cultural activity. Many new writers and poets expressed their views on politics, and soon the people of Ukraine were working towards the elimination of literacy. They were becoming a smart nation, which did not sit well with Joseph Stalin. In the summer of 1932, Stalin saw the resurgence of the Ukrainian as a threat, and in a letter to one of his main associates, he wrote, if we do not start rectifying the situation in Ukraine now, we may lose Ukraine. There is a clear record of Stalin's Government's deliberate aims to inflict suffering on the people of Ukraine. He systematically planned their starvation and death to hold on to their land. That began in the summer of 1932, when Stalin wrote a law now commonly known as the law of five years of grain. Ukraine was the most important agricultural part of the USSR, and despite only making up 2 per cent of the USSR's total area, it harvested 23 million tonnes of grain, which was 28 per cent of the gross grain harvest of the whole USSR. It was the breadbasket for Stalin's regime, and he used that to his advantage and subjected the nation to grain quotas, confiscating supplies down to the very last seed. All farmland became the property of the Soviet Union. Food in farmers' homes was taken, and if they were caught taking food from the land that they had owned, they would face fines, imprisonments and even execution. As they starved, it became harder to harvest what the Government requested, and the punishments were not. From the implementation of the first grain quota, they became Soviet prisoners and Soviet slaves. This suffering and starvation of the Ukrainian people was controlled through enforced isolation, put in place to prevent starving peasants from going in search of food. A resolution passed by Stalin and the Soviet regime in January 1933 stated, a massive exodus of peasants in search of bread has started, without a doubt organised by the enemies of the Soviet Government. Therefore, regional executive party bodies in Soviet Ukraine are ordered to prevent a massive exodus of peasants. Peasants from Soviet Ukraine, who have crossed the borders to the north, shall be arrested and deported back to their places of residence. It is recorded that the Soviet regime forcibly sent over 186,000 people back to their home to face certain starvation.  As a result of the Holodomor, 20 to 25 per cent of the population of Ukraine were exterminated. This enforced starvation reached its peak in the winter and spring of 1932 into 1933, when 25,000 people died every day. I repeat, 25,000 a day were dying at this point. In Maria Cachur, a survivor of the Holodomor stated, my mother buried the children herself. When my brother was dying in February 1933, he pleaded for food. My older brother died in March and my sister in May 1933. This harrowing account shows what many families had to endure, the horror of parents burying their own children. The Holodomor had an extremely high mortality rate for children. In September 1933, approximately two-thirds of Ukrainian pupils were missing from schools. Many desperate parents would risk being caught by the Soviet secret police and take their children through the Ukrainian borders, abandoning them in urban areas in hopes that they would find more food there. Many, however, died on the street. One of the difficulties with the Holodomor is that the death toll has never been known for sure. With many families burying their own and mass graves in many villages, the head of the secret police of Ukraine wrote a letter in June 1933 stating, the mortality rate has been so high that numerous village councils have stopped recording deaths. After all those deaths, Stalin used the depleted and barren land to resettle thousands of families from Russia. By the end of 1933, more than 117,000 people were resettled in Ukraine. Along Besencon, a well-known French historian, has stated that it was the well-organised executions that made the terror by starvation in Ukraine a genocide. That sums up the orchestrated and systematic killing of the Ukrainian people but the Stalin-led Soviet regime was a genocide and we must recognise that those whose lives were destroyed by Holodomor. Like other massacres down through the years, we must not forget. We must remember them. I also welcome the council of my omitted and can I ask members in the gallery to desist from clapping? I know why you want to but it is not permitted. I call Maurice Golden to be followed by Clare Adamson. Thank you, Presiding Officer. As I previously intimated to you, my apologies that I have to leave shortly after my speech are apologies to the chamber as well. I, too, would like to offer my thanks to the Ukrainian ambassador and council for highlighting this issue and indeed their presence here today. Everyone just thought of death. Those are the words of Nina Karpenko, one of the survivors of the Holodomor. During an interview with the BBC a few years ago to mark the 80th anniversary of this genocide against the Ukrainian people. Although Holodomor is etched into the collective memory of the Ukrainian people, it is largely unknown in the west. I thank Peter Chapman for helping to highlight that. However, let us use today as an opportunity to ensure that more people understand what happened in Ukraine. The Holodomor was a man-made famine, the product of an evil and twisted Soviet regime that placed ideology and its grip on power above the welfare of its own people. As Alessandra Rachenko, a teacher and I witness, put it, it would not be so offensive if it were due to a bad harvest but they have taken away the grain and created an artificial famine. Estimates vary a situation not helped by the decades of denial and secrecy but somewhere in the region of four to ten million innocent people perished in appalling suffering. The sad irony of Holodomor is that Ukraine was the breadbasket as farmers producing more than a quarter of the grain harvest of the entire Soviet Union. How, then, could so many of its people die of starvation? In the late 1920s, Stalin began the process of collectivisation, forcing farmers to hand over their land to Soviet authorities. Those who resisted were branded class enemies with armed troops and secret police used to enforce Stalin's will. Collectivisation was not just a case of mass theft by the Soviets. It was an assault on Ukrainian culture by attacking the concept of the rural village, a key part of Ukraine's traditional culture. The grain harvest was well below normal in 1932-33 and the Soviet response was to increase the grain quotas. When farmers couldn't meet the quotas, Communist Party agents tore through Ukraine and took any food they could find. The result was, of course, famine. Please for help fell on deaf ears with Stalin writing that Ukraine has been given more than it's due. Harsh lodd made it difficult for people to help themselves. He could be shot for stealing a sack of wheat. The famine intensified and by 1933 tens of thousands of people were dying every day. The accounts are harrowing people eating anything they could find to survive. People dropping dead in the streets, villages decimated. The Soviet response to this great loss of life among their own people was to export a million tonnes of grain to the west. Some did survive, like Nina Carpinko, and it's through their accounts that we can and we must recognise the halodimor for the genocide it is and ensure that it is never forgotten and never repeated. I want to let Mr Chapman know that I did know about the halodimor before his motion. The reason I do so is that I have a Ukrainian friend, to my knowledge, my only Ukrainian friend. He is in the gallery today, a former member of this place, Stephen Kimkevitch and the councillor in Edinburgh Council. Stephen was the first person who ever told me about the history of the Ukrainian people and the halodimor. Having met Her Excellency and the Consul General this afternoon, I am sure that that is a friendship group that will now grow. I also want to thank the diaspora of the Ukrainian people, many of whom are here today, for bringing the halodimor exhibition to this Parliament to help inform MSPs about what had happened and about their country and their family's history. It was very important to me to to see that here in its place a few years ago now, perhaps it's time for a refresh and a revisit. Having known a little bit, not much about it, the halodimor was something I'd heard about and last year I visited Canada and the United States with the Presiding Officer of this Parliament on a parliamentary visit and was lucky enough to visit the Canadian Museum of Human Rights. It's the first museum in the world solely dedicated to the evolution, celebration and the future of human rights and it's a profound experience to be there. It's an amazing place to visit and one that I will never forget because of the impact that it had on me in so many areas. In their breaking the silence gallery, they have exhibitions commemorating, remembering and informing people about the genocides of the world. To my surprise, the halodimor was included along with Rwanda, Srebrenica, the Holocaust and others. My surprise was there because I was unaware that Canada had recognised the halodimor as a genocide, something that I think personally that this country should do as well. The breaking silence gallery had a 10-minute long film showing footage from the time in the Ukraine and showing some of the posters and some of the propaganda that was put out with the Soviets denying that there was any problem in the UK. It was a famine, the major part of which was 1932 to 1933, but the Soviet Union's policies had damaged the UK in 1925, 1928 and 1929. It was a catastrophic famine that swept across the Soviet Union and it began in the chaos of collectivism, as has been mentioned by my colleagues. However, the Soviet Union was also in denial and preventing the information about this, reaching the west. We have to thank journalists such as the Manchester Guardians Malcolm McGurridge, who, at great risk to himself, defied the Soviets, went into the Ukraine, and because they sanitised the reports of reporters and things like famine and starvation, words were banned by the Soviets. They smuggled the real testimony of what was happening in the Ukraine to the west. Unfortunately, it did not suit the political system here at the time the Soviets were moving towards being allies in what was to happen in World War II, and many, many people denied what was happening. In McGurridge's own words, he said, what made it so diabolical is that it was the deliberate creation of the bureaucratic mind without consideration, whatever, of the consequences in human suffering. My experience in Canada taught me that, seeing all those genocides together, there is no limit to man's and humanity's to man, but we must not forget, we must remember, as we have in debates about Srebrenica, about the Holocaust here, but what is really important is that we write the unjust level of denial that still exists about the Holodomor, and I hope that one day the UK will recognise it as a genocide. Thank you very much. I call Claire Baker to follow by Tom Arthur. Miss Baker, please. Thank you, Presiding Officer. I would like to thank Peter Chapman for bringing forward today's debate, and I too would like to welcome the Ukrainian ambassador to Parliament. Dobri Wercha, and I hope that the pronunciation wasn't too bad. Can I apologise that I've been unable to meet the ambassador earlier on today, as I had an urgent constituency meeting that I had to attend, but I hope that we have another opportunity to meet in the future. I had to admit that until this debate was scheduled, I'm afraid I missed, we did have a previous debate in Parliament in the previous session that I had missed. I knew very little of the Ukrainian famine. I am sure that this is sadly true of many members, and unfortunately much of Scotland. We rightly have extensive knowledge about the Holocaust, paying our respect to the victims each and every year. This Parliament has also had many debates and visits centred around the genocide in Srebrenica, as we remember the shocking death that took place in Europe all too recently. Yet the genocide at Holodomor has, as far as a quick check off the official report indicates, only had one very short debate. I hope that today is the beginning of Parliament's attempt to address this. As this is the eighth, fifth anniversary of Holodomor, we are at a stage where we are losing more and more the valuable tragic, but at times very powerful memories and insights of those who experienced it. It is therefore up to us as politicians, along with historians, academics and Ukrainians, to ensure that those accounts and this tragedy does not die with them. My researcher, Jamie, recently became a dad. His son, Sam, is a quarter Ukrainian. Sam's great grandparents on his mum, Amy's side, are survivors of Holodomor, survivors of the Second World War in that region before they were able to seek refuge in England. Their daughter Olga met and fell in love with a Scot and they made their home in Preswick. Sam is six months old, but his Ukrainian grandparents Walter and Mary passed away before he was born. For baby Sam and other Ukrainian Scots, it is as much part of their history as the Highland clearances, just as Taras Siwenco is as much a part of their culture as Robert Burns. By calling the famine Holodomor to kill by starvation, it is a recognition that it was man-made. Starvation is often a consequence of war and conflict, but it can also be a deliberate act of aggression or control. If it is recognised as it has been man-made, then with 3.3 million deaths being considered a conservative estimate, it should be recognised as a genocide. Not just was Holodomor man-made, but when help was offered it appeared to be turned away. Outside age was rejected, population movement was severely restricted, household food stuff was confiscated and a state propaganda campaign tried to turn urban against rural. According to the declassification of more than 5,000 pages of Holodomor archives by the Security Service of Ukraine, it is suggested that Ukraine was not given the same aid and help that was given to other areas of the Soviet Union. The famine also took place against a backdrop described by genocide scholar Adam Jones of persecution, mass execution and incarceration clearly aimed at undermining Ukrainians as a national group. There is a growing number that are calling for the UK Government to recognise Holodomor as a genocide and calling them to show their support for the Ukraine, for the thousands of Ukrainians that fled the Soviet Union, for the thousands that have set up their homes across the UK and for the hundreds of thousands that are their descendants. As Claire Adams mentioned, Canada has recognised, I think, Australia and Ukraine themselves. Today's debate is an opportunity to state our support for Ukrainian people and to recognise the calls for Holodomor to be recognised as a genocide. This terrible period in history must not be hushed up or downplayed. Genocide must be recognised as such in order to enable us to acknowledge the suffering, remember the dead and endeavour to ensure that history does not repeat itself. Thank you very much, I call Tom Arthur. Last week in the open debate, Mr Arthur, please. Thank you, Presiding Officer. I wish to begin by thanking Peter Chapman for bringing this important debate to the Parliament. I would also like to join Mr Chapman in welcoming the Ukrainian ambassador and members of the Scottish Ukrainian community to the Parliament and to express my solidarity with the people of Ukraine and the Ukrainian state. The debate is important for several reasons. Firstly, it is important because it is important to remember that if the Korean War was the forgotten war of the 20th century, the Holodomor was the forgotten genocide of the 20th century. I want to recognise members who have used that word genocide and it is encouraging to hear from across the chamber the recognition that the Holodomor was a genocide. Mr Chapman eloquently explained that by citing historical sources, highlighting the way in which the Ukrainian people and their culture were deliberately targeted. We have a duty to make sure that more people are aware of that catastrophe. I certainly will undertake to make sure that, in my capacity as a constituency member, I engage with schools in my constituency of Renfrewshire South to increase awareness. We have several important lessons, but I think that a merge from this catastrophe is 85 years on. That is one of the ways in which ideology, taken to its extreme, can dehumanise people. It is to use Burk's term geometric politics, where individuals are subsumed into a collective, where people are instrumentalised and used as a vehicle for some other political end and individual liberty is lost. That, perhaps best captured in its most sinister form by that set of words often attributed to Stalin, is that a single death is a tragedy and a million deaths is a statistic. Even if that statement is apocryphal in its source, it sums up the fundamentals of communist ideology. It sums up the ideology that led to something like the Halodomor taking place. There is also an important lesson to be learned about how the Halodomor was reported and how it was forgotten and how we relearn about it. As all members have highlighted in their remarks, there has been a profound lack of awareness. However, there was not when it occurred that there was an enterprising, bold and brave young Welsh journalist by the name of Gareth Jones, who has been honoured in Ukraine. Gareth Jones did not live to see his 30th birthday, but as a brilliant young man, fluent in French, German and Russian, an aide to former Prime Minister David Lloyd George, he travelled to Ukraine and witnessed firsthand some of the scenes that other members have described. He came back and gave compelling testimony. Of course, what happened? The Kremlin denied it. Those with Soviet sympathies in the west poured scorn and discredited Mr Jones. There is a lesson of actions emanating from Moscow and then attempts to discredit it by Moscow and people in the west being sympathetic to the Kremlin line. A lesson 85 years ago, it is still very valid. What happened to Gareth Jones is that he regained his reputation and went to Japanese-occupied Mongolia to report an event there. He died in mysterious circumstances, but two of the last people that he met were Stalin's NKVD agents. There is a lesson there to be learned as well. If I may conclude by saying that this year may represent the 80th year and the anniversary of the Hallodomor, but it is also the tenth anniversary of the Prague Declaration on European Conscience and Communism, from which we have a European day of remembrance for victims of Stalinism and Nazism. We all have a duty in this place and in our work in our constituencies to make sure that prominence is given to the victims of the Hallodomor and that future generations will never forget, because fundamental to this are the words of George Santagnana, those who do not know the past are condemned to repeat it. I thank all the members who have contributed to this afternoon's debate marking the 85th anniversary of the Hallodomor. The Scottish Parliament debated this horrific tragedy in Parliament in 2014 and, by doing so again, I am in no doubt that it will have raised awareness of this terrible event in the Ukraine's history. I thank Mr Chapman for bringing this motion to Parliament and taking this opportunity, like others, to welcome the Ukrainian ambassador and her party to the gallery today. We are honoured that you are able to be with us. The message today has been very clear that the Hallodomor was a completely avoidable tragedy and one that serves as a reminder of the depths of inhumanity that can exist in this world. It is by continuing to debate and above all commemorate the tragedy that we show our solidarity with the people of Ukraine and come together across parties to remember those lost as part of this deplorable famine that could so easily have been prevented. The people of Scotland and Ukraine have intertwined histories and Ukrainians continue to very positively influence Scottish society. That is reflected by the shared celebration of our two national poets, Robert Burns and Tarris Shevchenko, which is hosted by the Association of Ukrainians in Great Britain every year. One of the most visible gifts to Scotland from the people of Ukraine came from Ukrainian prisoners of war who made Scotland their home in the first half of the 20th century, resulting in the hall mure Ukrainian chapel near Lockerbie. The Scottish Government places a very high value, indeed, on the on-going contribution of the Ukrainian community to Scotland as a whole, and we are very grateful for the chance to unite in commemoration today. I want to say a little, as others have, about the sequence of events that we are commemorating. In 1924, Joseph Stalin ascended to power in the USSR. In 1928, he introduced an agricultural programme of government-owned farms and factories. As Clare Adamson mentioned, a bureaucracy was set up to develop the ideology around that and oppose very violently any social groups that Stalin decided were in the way of that plan. In 1929 and 1930, groups that were considered by Moscow to be dangerous or members of society that were not of the same way of thinking as Moscow were rounded up and sent to Siberian work camps. In 1932 and 1933, production quotas for Ukraine increased by some 44 per cent, causing widespread hunger and starvation, which amounted to an attack on the whole people and culture of the Ukraine. Given the sequence of events, I wholeheartedly understand the basis for the calls across the chamber to designate the Hallodomor as a genocide. Those are essentially criminal matters on which appropriate courts, such as the international criminal court, are best placed to make a judgment, taking into account all of the great deal of evidence that exists. That is why it remains our position, shared by the UK Government, that the recognition of genocide is a matter for judicial decision rather than government policy. The fact that we, along with the UK Government and the European Parliament, take that view in no way lessens our horror at the severity and inhumanity of the Hallodomor and the enormity of suffering and loss of life is very deliberately caused. Nor does it lessen our recognition that the policies and political decisions taken at the time by the then Soviet leadership were responsible for the famine resulting in the deaths of millions of Ukrainians. The scale of the tragedy is truly staggering by any measure. By 1933, as we have heard, the death rate had reached 25,000 people a day, most of those children, and by the end millions of lives had been lost. It is no exaggeration, therefore, to say that the Hallodomor is one of history's starkest warnings and marks a devastating chapter in world affairs that must never be forgotten. It has been 85 years since the beginning of the Hallodomor, and in every one of those years people across the world have worked to honour those who died. Therefore, it is important that we also take the opportunity today to pay tribute to the people who continue to work to keep alive the memory of all those who perished in the Hallodomor. I know that I speak for everyone across the chamber and across Scotland when I say that we will continue to stand with the people of Ukraine to share in their mourning and to stand in solidarity with the terrible events that they commemorate.


I see this more of a signature scent, but I have trouble recommending it for that because of Hey, what's up guys, it's Josh here today. I want to do a little re-review on Armov's Magnificent OD Parfum. One of my most viewed fragrance videos now is my Top 10 Armov, so I'm always interested in finding different Armov's, maybe Armov's that can crack that Top 10. My Top 10 Armov's are actually really, really strong, but it's always interesting trying these. Some of the hyped Armov's are very expensive, but the unhyped ones like this one are actually pretty cheap. I think I got this for about $20 to $25. I'll go through my purchase history and put it down below. I filmed this review perfectly, I had no problems with it, but the one problem I do have is it was filmed on this phone and as you can see, this phone isn't really working as well. That was the one video I didn't take off the phone before it broke, so unfortunately I got to re-review or re-shoot this one, but let's jump right into it. This reminds me of like a 2000s, slightly sweet, fruity style fragrance, very safe. Yeah, just generally 2000s kind of a smell. When I was looking up the notes online, the notes we got are Bergamont, Galbenum, Grapefruit, Apple, Ginger, Spices, Vanilla, Musk, Petruly, Suede, Woody Notes, and Cedar. Let's jump right into the pros of this fragrance. The pros is that it is very easy to wear. That's probably the best part about this fragrance. I wore this for about four or five days straight before I ended up shooting the first review, so I have tried this quite a bit. It does smell a little bit different, generally very safe. Maybe it's supposed to copy other kind of fragrances. I do smell a little bit of that ginger. I actually really like ginger and fragrances. I feel like it gives it a unique kind of zest, and that's probably what smells a little bit unique to me in here, but overall it's pretty safe. It's not really mind-blowing. It's not really risky at all. It's very just safe down the middle, but it's also easy to wear because of it. And then the last pro here is that it is affordable. It is very cheap. I actually really do kind of like the bottle, the presentation. It's pretty heavy. The cap is actually probably one of the heavier caps that I've ever tried from my mom. If you can imagine how heavy the Club Dunaweed cap is, it's about that thickness and heavy. Very well put together bottle. That's about the last pro for me. Let's jump into the cons of this fragrance. The cons of my opinion is that it's generally pretty synthetic. It doesn't really smell too much like anything natural. It doesn't smell bad in my opinion. It does smell safe, but some people, I just kind of go over it. Does it smell good? It doesn't smell bad. It smells good, so I don't really mind the synthetic-ness, but there's some people who they really like a natural incorporation or it to smell very natural. It doesn't smell very natural. It has pretty poor projection. Unfortunately, that's probably the weakest point to this one. I would spray this up quite a bit and sometimes I would have trouble smelling it maybe after an hour.  Even then, seven, eight sprays, you might have a trouble cutting through other fragrances and other smells at that point. It's not the worst I've ever tried, but it is pretty low. And for me, that's going to hold it back. It's crazy that it is an OD perfume, which usually means that it has more fragrance oils and it is more strong and noticeable, but don't really get it with this one. Let's jump into the smell rating. I would give this a 7.5 to an eight. Again, it's not groundbreaking. I do look like the ginger. It is wearable. It is overall very, very safe. And I just gave it possibly up to an eight because of that slight uniqueness in the ginger there. For longevity and projection, I would give a 5.5 to a six. Other fragrances, I've kind of been more generous when they've smelled like this. But to be honest, when I'm spraying up a bunch of times, like seven, eight times and it doesn't really last more than an hour, that's not very good.  Like I've smelled fragrances to where it's literally nothing. You could spray 15 times and it's gone after like 30 minutes. It's not that bad, but it is overall a definite weakness. And then likeability, I'd give an eight to an 8.5. I think its strongest point is its likeability. Is it good for work? I think this is okay for work. I think this is okay for a day. It doesn't really jump out at either one of those. It has a little bit of a safeness. It's not overpowering. So I think that's good for work. It has a little bit of sweetness, a little bit of zest, but it's not overall super nighttime kind of sexy. So I don't think of date, but it's not the worst thing either. I think it's right down the middle. Gym, I'd say this is actually kind of above average for the gym. This kind of slightly reminds me of two one two men. It's been a while since I've smelled two one two men, but it kind of has that vibe in my opinion. Just overall the smell and the lightness, I think this is probably one of the better sense if you're going to toss for a gym. But to be honest, there's not many fragrances that are really made for the gym. It's just kind of like, does it happen to be good for the gym? Because in my opinion, you kind of shouldn't be wearing too much strong stuff. And because this is light and wearable, it kind of would be okay for the gym. I kind of see this more of a signature scent, but I have trouble recommending it for that because of the longevity and projection because it is so wearable. Like I was saying, you could wear it to work. You could wear it on a date. You could wear it every day. It's kind of would be inoffensive in all situations. So I do really appreciate that. But let me know what you think of our mob magnificent. Let me know which are mob I should review down below. I will be doing my rereview top 10 list. I just really want something kind of special, something that a lot of fragrance reviewers aren't incorporating into the list. Right now, the top ones, you could kind of guess what's going to be the best for our mob. I haven't really included milestones, so that one is coming in there. But anyways, guys, thank you guys so much for watching the video. I appreciate it so, so much. We're on the road to 50,000 subscribers and I couldn't do without any of you guys. So I hope you guys are the best. I'm having a great day out here. Hopefully having a great day at home. See you all in the next video. Peace.