Proudly, we hail. New York City, where the American stage begins. Here is another program with a cast of outstanding players. Public service time has been made available by this station to bring you this story, as proudly we hail the United States Army. Our story today is entitled, Four Find a Target. This is the story of the enterprise and initiative of four soldiers, members of the great team of America's hard-hitting armed forces. Our first act curtain will rise in just a moment, but first, did you know that you can get ahead, enjoy your work, have security and a steady job, all when you enlist in the United States Army? Why, you'll get your first promotion when you've been in only a few months. There's a wide variety of jobs available, but most important, you'll be helping to preserve the national security of our country. Why don't you check at your local recruiting office and let them tell you how you can make the most of your life in the United States Army? And now your United States Army presents the proudly we hail production, Four Find a Target. Okay, Ted, we're next. Okay, Bill. Right. Gunner, Mack, take over, it's all yours. Right, ready. How's that? Old Lucretia scores again. Right on the nose. That's another hit. Looks like if all of us keep it up, our tank battalion's gonna win that gunnery competition for sure. That's a hit. I hope we can swing it. The old man's set on us winning, so we get picked to go on the maneuvers. I hear that he and Colonel Garrett have side bets on whose outfit will go. It could be, but I guess it's more than that. It seems like they've been sort of rivals from clear back in Europe when they were both with General Patton's Third Army's company commanders. Oh, it goes further back than that. When they were second jugs, they were both sweet on the same gal. And Colonel Garrett got her. Whatever it was, it'll all depend on the score we get here. Hey, how was that one, Sarge? On the button. Okay, there's the ceasefire signal. Look, Chris, you're gone. That's all for today. Hey, when are we gonna get a driver for this buggy, Bill? I can't do two jobs, driving and gunner, when we're out in the field exercise. Well, counting our chickens, eh? Don't worry, we've got a guy coming in tomorrow from school. From school? Gee, I thought you could get one of the guys from another crew. Where's your influence? Don't worry. He'll be broken in before we go. We can all help him out. Yeah, I guess so. Okay, let's go. Hey, someone's looking for you, Sergeant. Don't be there in the shop. No, who it is? Ah, some PFC. Never saw him before. Okay, I'll take a look. Thanks. It's okay. You're looking for me?  I am? Who are you? The name is Flynn, bright-eyed and bushy-tailed Flynn. That supposed to mean something to me? Oh, I beg your pardon, PFC. Michael Alawich is Flynn reporting for duty. I can't, it's soldier. Be civil. We'll get along fine. Been in to see the Captain yet? Have I? Wow. What do you mean, wow? You didn't pull any of that bright-eyed stuff on him, did you? Well, no, I was only wishing to inject a note of cheer and an otherwise dull morning. It's much too nice a day to be cooped up in a hot office. Come with me to the Kasbah. Maybe you don't like the Kasbah, huh? How about the snack bar? I buy you this, sir, dear? Oh, really? Isn't that big of you? Well, you know, if I made corporal, I could buy a malt. Oh, what a beautiful voice. Almost as pretty as the face that goes with it. And that figure... Well, good day now. I'm afraid I have to leave you. A regretfully, of course, but this is my office. Office? Office? Isn't it a shame a beautiful girl like you must slave away in a dingy old office while you should be in Hollywood? There are enough wolves around here, thank you. Goodbye. Get into the plate now. We got a good team this year. Looks like we got a good chance for the post-championship. Hey, speaking of championships, what about the results of the gunnery competition? What are they gonna post them? Well, I got the word. Strictly on the grapevine now. We're in. No kidding. Straight stuff. How about that? We win the target shoot, get a chance to go on maneuvers, really show what we can do. We're stuck with that long-haired Flynn. Ah, give the guy a chance. After all, he's been here only a week. What do you mean a chance? We got only two weeks to get ready. You're not kidding. Yesterday, he almost takes the corner off the maintenance shop trying to park. It's one of the boy Flynn. Give him credit for good taste and fast action. Look who he's dancing with. Oh, Sally. What's she doing here in the service club? This must be her night as a volunteer hostess. He'll never get any place with her. Every guy in the post is interested in that girl. All she's interested in is a slide rule and a variation on the quantum theory, whatever that is. Yeah, I danced around one night. My algebra book used to read back in school. Ah, well, he's trying anyhow. We're up to the other afternoon. I was asking you the meaning of your slaving away over a hot typewriter when you should be out on a sound stage somewhere whispering sweet nothings into the ear of a handsome leading man. I assume you do slave over a hot typewriter. I do not. Oh, well, what then? I sometimes slave over an old IBM machine. I do statistical analyses. Mercer from Heavens, what's that? Well, if you have about three or four hours some time, maybe I could explain it to you. Well, how about now? I'm afraid the present atmosphere wouldn't help you in grasping the subject. I'd love to grasp the subject any time, any place. How about out on the terrace? May I cut in? Oh, well, oh, Dick, how are you? Thank you so much, Mike. Well, don't think you're going to discourage me. I'm a very persistent character. I'm sure you are. Hey, that's a treat. Watch it. Well, Pete's aches, Flynn. You got the easiest job in the whole crew. Can it, Mike? Flynn, look out for that ditch. I made it.  He made it. Well, he made it. What are you griping about? We almost hit those borders back there. Hey, yeah, I'm really getting the hang of it now. Everything has to start in the middle of the night, but that's the way it is, yeah? This time it's four or something. At least these maneuvers are a break from the same old stuff. Yeah. Yeah, I heard the old man's going to give three-day passes to the whole company that's first to carry out its objective. Well, how come? I thought when we won the battalion competition and were picked for this, he made his point with Colonel Garrett. What's he steamed up about now? Well, didn't you hear the word? The maneuvers. Garrett's outfit is going to be the defending army. Oh, I get it. He and the old man are still fighting it out on the same old line. That's right. Hey, you guys, come on. Where's Flynn? Oh, I don't know. He was around a minute ago. We'd be better off without that guy. Can it, will you? I got troubles enough. I'm going to look for him. I'll meet you out with the parking area. Okay. Good morning. Who's this? Why, Michael Aloysius Flynn? Who else? What? You have your nerve? It's two o'clock in the morning. Oh, and what a morning. Of course the sun's not out yet, but I thought you might like to be awake and it'll be sunrise in exactly three hours and eight minutes. I have nothing to say to you. Well, I thought you might like to say goodbye. Good, but... Goodbye. Where are you going? Oh, I'm going. Where? Sounds encouraging, anyway. What are you talking about? Hey, you must care. Oh! I'll be back anyway, so don't fret on me. And you called me up in the middle of the night to tell me that. I don't care if I... No, no, I know you don't mean it. Hey, here you are. Don't you know we're late? Come on, get going. Oh, I gotta go now, darling. Be good. Oh! Who in Tarnation could you find a talk to at this hour of the night? My heartthrob. Sally Munson? Who else? Boy, you really know how to win friends and influence people. I sure do. Well, I thought you said we were in a hurry. Come on, let's go. See you on the march plan. I want you to get this straight. We've got a long day ahead of us, especially you drivers. Now you won't run into any difficulty if you'll keep the prescribed distance between you. And don't fall back too far either. There's always a screwball motorist who'll try to cut in. And I want you to watch for him. Any questions? Okay, good luck. See you at the front. Oh, Watson! Yes, Captain?  I can depend on you not to struggle. Yes. Oh, yes, Dustin. You've got a new driver. How's he making up? He'll be okay. Right. A little easing on the intercom. He's always griping about something, except when he's out on the baseball field. Yeah. How you doing, Flynn? Okay, sir. It's okay. Really got this old iron horse running smooth now. Yeah. Creeping up on the guy ahead of us again. Stopper back ten feet. Okay. That was some picture at the movies last night, huh? That thing drives you crazy. Talk, talk, talk.  Gee, Bill, there's nothing else to do. Well, start a game of rummy, then. You and Michael. Make it quiet, huh? You get all the brakes. At least you can get some air up there. Us, we might as well be down in a coal mine or something. I'm going to get me a canary so as I'll know when I'm about to keel over. Okay, okay. I wish we'd get into some action. This is the next of the last day and all we've done is hang around battalion headquarters. You'll get action, all right. Get a move on. Let's get this buggy wash. I can't see the idea of washing. Everyone, it's going to rain. Okay, okay. It's being done reserved. Gets me a pain right where... Hey, hey, everybody! I just heard that dog company was ambushed and knocked out. What? Hear that? There's your action. We'll be moving tonight. Meantime, hurry it up. Let's get the job done. You are listening to the proudly we hail production for Find a Target. We'll return in just a moment for the second act. Young man, be honest with yourself. Have you reached a standstill in life? Is each day just like any other? Are you worried about your future? And most important of all, are you feeling dissatisfied with yourself and your personal development? Well, if this description or any part of it fits you, it's just about time you investigated the opportunities waiting for you when you enlisted in the United States Army. Every man in the Army has a skill. And more often than not, the Army taught him that skill in one of its fine schools. The Army offers an interesting present and a secure future with plenty of promotions along the way. And above all, the Army molds you into a man, a man whose family, friends, and country are proud of him. If you think you can measure up, stop in at your nearest recruiting office and see if you can qualify to wear the mark of a man, the uniform of your United States Army. You're listening to Proudly We Hail. And now we present the second act of for Find a Target. Colonel's orders are to stay off the radio. That's how we lost dog company. Remember, the enemy is monitoring. There's been too much chatter. I know this rain's not very comfortable and we'll get going in a minute. Tomorrow's the last day. Now, things don't look so good for us. But if we can get this bunch of armored infantry through to the objective, we might still qualify for those passes a Colonel promised. Okay? Now you, Dodson. Yes, sir.  There's always a chance of being encircled, so watch out. Yes, sir. Okay, let's get going. Now, let's see if we can keep them getting put out of action like the others did. Thought it was stuffy before, did you? No, kid. I don't know how good I had it. Can't see a thing in this confounded rain. It's as black out as the inside of my hat. I feel just fine. Nice and warm and cozy in here. What are you guys kicking about anyway? Oh, come on. Can you see anything ahead? No, can't see a thing. Now, speed up a little. We must have dropped back too far. Right. Hey, hold it. Not too fast. This rain, if we catch that, we'll run over them before we can stop. It sure is black out. Brother, I'm glad I'm not driving this buggy. See anything yet? Not yet. Shall I go a little faster? No, you better not. Hey, how about getting on the radio? You heard the captain say to stay off it. But this is desperate. We don't want to go against orders. If you don't mind my saying so, Sarge, I think we'd have passed them by now if they were anywhere within a mile ahead of us. We weren't traveling over 15 miles an hour. I'm afraid you're right.  There was an intersection back there, Sarge. They might have gone down that road. That wasn't a plan. Well, something must have happened to change the plan. How about going back, taking a look anyway?  I guess we'll have to take a chance. Okay, turn around. Come on, Lucretia, baby, get around there. Hey, turn on the radio and listen to it on a frequency. If we hear them, we'll know they're around somewhere, huh? Okay. There's nothing on it. Hey, here's that side road. Which way? All we can do is flip a coin. Take a right, Flynn. Okay. Does anyone know where we are? Oh, don't ask silly questions. We may still be in Texas, but if they're right where we're going, we won't be long. Well, anyhow, it's a big state. How long has it been since we left the convoy? Well, since we knew for sure we'd lost them about an hour. Stop a minute.  Don't forget your umbrella, Bill. That's better. There's a row of trees along the ridge over there. That mean anything to anybody? Hey, are you sure it's a row of trees on a ridge? Yeah, why? Well, the briefing this afternoon, you remember on the map? Boy, if we're where I think we are, wow! Wow what? Wow, we're about five miles behind the enemy line. Okay, take her up with the trees, higher ground up there. Maybe I can see something.  Yeah. I can just make them out. You think it's all guys? Yeah, there's four tanks. And a jeep. Hey, the jeep's got a white flag. They're umpires. Well, let's let them have it. We've got a good position. They'll never see us until we open up. Wait, they won't see us, but if we try to ambush them, those umpires will allow us one or maybe two hits, Yeah, this way if we lay low, who knows how much damage we can do before we get caught. All right, be ready to fire in case they discover our position. Right, right. Ready, Mike? Oh, brother, what a beautiful shot. If I could just let go, I could pick them all off. One, two, three, four, like sitting ducks. Hold your fire. Well, I guess we better keep away from the roads until we find out what the score is. I'll try to watch out for mines. They're playing stop a minute. I see something. The telephone cable. We just cut it. I hope it's one of theirs. One thing, we don't have to worry about being seen, only heard. Let's stop and cut the engine, and I'll see if I can get a line on where we are from that artillery. Hey, there's two guys coming across this field, signal people, looking for that break. How many of my carbine? Let's knock these characters out of the game. Okay, whoever you are, you've had it. I'm going out in seven. What do you see from here? What's going on? Well, like you said, it's a couple of linemen. Hey, it looks like they're giving them some lip. Hey, there's a jeep stopping. Oh, umpires. That'll take care of the lip, I guess. Come on, move over. Let me take a look. They're taking down their serial numbers. And now they're pinning on the white out-of-action badges. Oh, good enough. Straight ahead. I seem surprised to see it. Well, then we must be heading for something hot, Sarge. They turned around. They're following us. That's right. I wonder what the idea is. They had dropped us. They didn't think we were heading for action. That's for sure. I hope so.  Blast it, Sanders. When is that phone coming back in? Well, they've sent out two men, sir. They haven't returned. Well, pulled back able company, the infantry. Have them contact a vision. We've been cut off too long. Right. You think they'll allow us all ten? Tell you in a minute. He's putting them all out. Looks like some kind of a map.  Look at this, boy. The map of all the minefields in the area. That's going to come in handy. You know what that stands for? Your headquarters. I think we're going to be soon eligible for some three-day passes. What is this fool report here? Tanks breaking through. What tanks? The only tanks the other army has are all down in this section. I don't know what it means, sir. Are you sure they're all down there? Obviously they aren't. It doesn't look like it, sir. Let's see, there's that mine laying platoon, two lines of men, and now this report. The man got back through from able company. They're virtually wiped out. The umpires countered 51 dead, 23 wounded, and the rest demoralized and dispersed. Very strange situation. Was there anything else, sir? No, and try to get a messenger through to division. I've got to warn them of this new development. But that's where able company was going. I know. Are we... Well, that is, don't you think... No, confound it, no. We'll stay here until we're ordered back. But, sir, if we're cut off, we can't be ordered back. Then we'll stay. Barn over there. Looks deserted. What about it? A minute ago, the door opened and someone came out. I think this is it. Right. Get up as close as you can without racing the engine. If I see anything, I'll shoot. I wish I could be there to see the man Garrett's face when we open up. Sanders? Sanders? Yes, sir. All right, come here. This is the message to send back to division. What? What's that? I'd say it was a tank. You'd say. I know, blasted. Well, it is. This is outrageous. This is battalion headquarters. Now, we're busy here. You're way outside. I'm sorry, sir, but I'm afraid I had the drop on you. Of course, you might take it up to those umpires over there in that jeep. Umpires? Where? Blasted? I'd like to know how you did it, Sergeant. So, Dodson, I want to congratulate you as well as McGuire, Dixon and Flynn. That was a wonderful job. As a matter of fact, that's not quite strong enough. It was stupendous. I still don't know how you managed it. One thing, Captain. We got the best driver in the business. That goes for me, too, sir. Well, here are your passes. One minute. Yes, sir. You'd better stop by the first sergeant's desk on your way out. He says some girl's been calling you every day since we left. Sally's something. Wow! It shall not happen here. That is the unspoken prayer of every man in the United States Army. That is the unspoken reason for our growing military might. But the time has come to speak. The time has come to tell the love that small phrase, those five words, it shall not happen here. Let us speak only to those young men of America who have not taken pause to think. Let's shout it in a voice that will reach into every city and village across the length and breadth of this great land. Young man, you are needed. You are needed to help preserve the peace. You are needed to serve in the United States Army to ensure for your loved ones that it shall not happen here. And while you serve, you'll be building a rewarding career for yourself. Everyone who wears the uniform of the United States Army is sharing in a service that is vital to our country. To each belongs the individual dignity which has characterized Army careers since the birth of our nation. In the Army, opportunity is open to all on an equal basis. Affording its young members of today a chance to become technical specialists, instructors, leaders of tomorrow. You are urged to visit your local United States Army recruiting station at your earliest opportunity and ask about the technical careers in the United States Army. Remember, the need is urgent. This has been another program on Proudly We Hail, presented transcribed in cooperation with this station. Proudly We Hail is produced by the recruiting publicity center in New York for the United States Army. This is Mark Hamilton speaking, inviting you to tune in next week at this same time for another interesting story on Proudly We Hail.


Hello, I'm from the Reuters news agency. Reuters, okay. I just wanted to ask a general question about the past six months. Do you think that the political and diplomatic infrastructure of the European Union has been capable of dealing with the Eurozone debt crisis, or do you think reform is needed before it can be solved? Thank you. I haven't mentioned one of the most interesting short-lived story. Or attempt of the European Union country's prime ministers they have done during the Hungarian presidency independently from the Hungarian presidency. So that was a momentum probably to remember, probably in January and February, when an initiative came up to the service, Germans and French probably as usual, that the Eurozone countries should form something innovative approach and circle of countries to manage the crisis of the Euro. That was a surprise for us anyway, because one of the main point of the Hungarian presidency was to create the six pieces of legislation which generated for all the member states of the European Union a kind of economic governance or coordination of national economic governance. So we provided the framework and we are still fighting for that anyway and we have a good chance to reach a compromise with the European Parliament to pass the six pieces of legislation. So we provided that for all 27 countries. And then the French and the Germans came up to the initiative that something separated from that common governance should be created for only those countries who belong to the Eurozone. That was finally called the Euro plus or something like that. That was a third name anyway, which shows that not everything was clarified when the initiative launched. So the third name, which is the final name is Euro plus. And the original idea was to create a strong group of the Eurozone countries, which are able to attack the problem and the challenges in a tough way, putting aside all the consideration of those countries who are not member of Eurozone. Because I have to admit the presence of those countries who are not member of Eurozone can slow down the defending strategy and procedures and steps of those countries who are already in the Eurozone and would like to defend their own currency. So I thought first it's legitimate. I mean that attempt from the Germans and the French in order to defend their own currency. But then like in political life, it's often happened, they got softer and softer. And then they invited those countries who are not member of the Eurozone. So now it's very difficult to say what the hell is the difference between the Hungary and presidency program of six pieces of legislation, crisis management, economic governance framework and Euro plus initiative. So Hungary basically rejected to join that Euro plus project. The British has done the same as far as I remember. The Swedish and probably Czech Republic also. So very rejected. I decided in that way for two reasons. The first is because I thought seriously the initial target of that new group. So we are not member of Eurozone and we have to accept that to defend the currency which is one of the most difficult political exercise. Sometimes request very tough measures and why should I be a difficulty for those who try to defend their own currency? To make unnecessary burden on their shoulders with my own out of Eurozone considerations. The second reason was that this Euro plus project had a point, a program point which is absolutely against not just our approaches but our philosophical basics on the European Union. And this is the harmonization of the tax, tax harmonization. It's a small step because it's not a, of course it's not a full harmonization of the tax system that was not part of that program. But a small step towards that direction saying that the basis of the corporate taxation should be counted on the same way in all the countries. And we don't like it. Our personal, my personal and the Hungarian government conviction is that we need tax competition inside the European Union. Without having a tax competition inside the European Union those countries who are less developed cannot catch up with plus without having a tax competition inside the European Union the effectiveness and competitiveness of the European economy will be lower. So there is no reason to be part of that group which targets are totally opposed to our political targets and economic convictions. So this is the story. So that's where we are at this moment. So we have an all European approach by the Hungarian presidency and we have a Eurozone based approach how to manage the crisis of the Euro. If there is a leadership, if there is a leadership the Eurozone countries by themselves can manage the defense strategy of the Euro. The question is whether there is a real leadership which is a general question all over in Europe. Plus because the institutional system is very much complicated sometimes we waste some time we waste a lot of energy to clarify whose job belongs to who. Commission, council, parliament so it's very complicated system which is very democratic anyway, good exercise help make sharper your intellectual skills but at the same which is good anyway when we are living in a peaceful time but when we are in war time as we are just now in that kind of structure is rather difficult. So this is the situation. What belongs to the Hungarian presidency is that by any means we have to conclude our attempt to create the six pieces of legislation by the end of the Hungarian presidency and I think we have some chances more than 2,000 amendments arrived from the members of the European Parliament to the six pieces of legislation. So we are involved now in looking for a compromise and I see a chance that middle of June we can reach an agreement with the various caucuses of the European Parliament. I'm deeply involved into that searching for compromise. Thank you Prime Minister Jassna Gnarewicz I'm Ambassador of Croatia here in Ireland and I would like first to thank your government and you personally for all the support and efforts you have given to us in order to finalize our negotiations we are now really at the very end and we really hope that it will be possible during your presidency. You mentioned in your statement that the policy of enlargement is also something which member states have to face and start discussing. There are also a lot of discussion that after creation membership there will be quite a lot of time when the next candidate is going to join union. It's very well known that policy of enlargement is one of the most successful politics of the European Union and a big economic, political and social changes also happen to the candidate countries and countries who aspire to be members and we can see some recent developments as well happening. So I would like to ask you how do you see this policy developing? We know that there are now quite a lot of changes in some member states due to the changes in there after their elections happen in those countries quite a lot of eroscepticism in this film. How do you see this policy going to be developed in the future? Thank you very much. We have a couple of difficulties concerning to that point. The first is that to put it bluntly, the people of European Union or the majority of them are not very much happy to get any news about enlargement. When everything is going well and there is a success story in the European Union economy, it's easy to convince the people who are members of those countries who are already in or people of those countries who are already in that they could enlarge the European Union without having major risk. But when the things are going badly, especially in economy, when we are in a crisis period and the unemployment rate is high and the budget is in terrible shape in many countries. Enlargement which provide jobs for those who are outside the European Union already inside the European Union to give some money for those who would like to join because of the common agriculture policy or structural funds, whatever. So you know, that creates some resistance, political resistance in the societies. And you know, we are politicians and we have to represent the people not to speak about that we need their votes. So therefore, we fit ourselves to the circumstances. So that's the point. So that's one of the major difficulties concerning Croatian enlargement. The second point is that the Balkan region is a difficult region. If I would be a Croat, I would be insulted anyway when somebody speak about Western Balkan speaking about Croatia. But this is the average language inside the European Union which is a national insult anyway on Croatia. Croatia was never part of any Balkan, you know. Croatia is belong to another area, sorry for that. But not to the Balkan, even when you are so kind to say Western Balkan anyway. So I think we have a historical mistake previously done let's say several years ago because Croatia was basically ready to be integrated into the European Union even several years ago. So I think because the whole process was slowed down, now we're suffering because the crisis is there and that kind of all difficulties are in one package now. All in all, there is a strategy for enlargement in the European Union. That's the strategy of the Commission approved by the Commission enlargement strategy which is going ahead, I mean, what is going on is exactly coinciding with the direction defined in that Commission report except Macedonia. So the real problem is not Croatia or other Macedonia because of the discussion of the name and the Greeks are very tough on that issue. But anyway, Croatia, just to conclude my answer, the Croatia is in a very interesting period now because now we have a momentum to conclude the negotiations with Croatia. That's the job of the Hungarian presidency to keep that momentum and to finalize the whole procedure by the end of the Hungarian presidency. The chance is slight now because the timetable is very, very busy but still we have a chance. So I think it will depends on two or three days whether the Hungarians are able to conclude the negotiations or not. The problem is if we are unable to do so, nobody knows when the momentum will come back because the next council meeting of the European Union prime ministers will be held on probably October. And who knows what the hell will happen still October on financial and so on and whether this issue will be as busy one as an important one as it is now or it will be just put aside because we have far more serious engagements on other issues. So I think we should keep the momentum just now otherwise we don't know what will happen. It would be not an honest approach on my side if I would not raise, I can't see conspiracy. Politicians like to speak about conspiracy especially when the press is not present. But the kind of allegation that there are some countries in the European Union which would like to postpone the conclusion of negotiations with the Croats till the moment when the negotiations on membership could start with the Serbs. It's a political calculation. I cannot exclude that kind of conspiracy theory has some real core which would be a huge mistake in my understanding. That kind of approach to Balkan is a serious mistake. But anyway, we live under that condition. So we will see soon because the prime minister summit will happen 24th of June. And we will get the final answer to your question. Thanks very much, prime minister. Take on the breakdown of the Irish Times. You spoke about how you ended cooperation with the IMF and went back to the markets. This is a very hot issue here in Ireland at the moment. Would you like to tell us more about how you achieved this, please? Unfortunately, we cannot compare the situation here in Ireland with the Hungarian situation because the shape of the real economy is totally different here than in Hungary. So the real economy in Ireland is very strong. If you look at the figures of your GDP are far higher than the Hungarian, so I think you are less vulnerable than we are. Probably it's a surprise to you, but this is the point. Plus you have a background, a strong relationship to the United States and business ties, which can help a lot. Hungary is far more vulnerable and fragile than Ireland, so we should not forget about it. The real economy in Hungary is not as developed far, not as developed as it is here. But I had some negotiations with the IMF guys who are very prudent, very intelligent, very polite, and very dangerous people. So they are able to speak about ideas without any emotion which could kill your economy in one day as a proposal on their side. The problem is, to make it in a larger content, that the political management and the economic management or business management is too separatable profession. And that kind of institutions like IMF always like or press you to behave and to have an approach like a business management people. But to manage a country, to lead the country politically is another job. We cannot follow a way that you just simply like a CEO leader say that this is the decision. Everybody must follow it because there is no other way. So that kind of approach kills the credibility of your policy, kills the popular background of your policy, kill the unity what you have to create, and without creating that kind of unity of the people, you cannot be successful in political management. So sometimes international institutions demand a kind of political behavior based on economic management or business management approaches which equal to political suicide. Not just for parties and governments but for people as well. And it's impossible to manage in that way. So when I negotiated with them, which was really very interesting and very educative for all my life, I realized that this is not the way how we can continue. But at the same time, there are situations when you have no choice. When you have to pay tomorrow morning, you have to pay tomorrow morning. And the market is not ready to provide money for you. No new loans. You have to get money from somewhere else, otherwise the country is collapsing. And then IMF is a very good instrument because they give the money. But when you got that money and you are able to come back from the edge of the crisis or collapse, then you have to think about the future. And our strategy was very simple to get back to the financial market as soon as possible. And happily enough, I introduced horrible things in Hungary, bank taxation, some special taxation for various sectors of industry, social expenditures cut back, so horrible things. But there was no other way. But when I was able to manage it, finally I got a chance to provide or to get again room for maneuvering. And then I decided to conclude with IMF and move back to the markets. And now the markets accepted us, which is very important to you. Just the intention to move back to the financial markets is not enough because the financial market should accept you and finance you and accept your program. Sometimes it's tougher than the IMF. But the financial markets let you some room to implement your policies as a political leader based on the rules of political management and not on the base of the principles and rules of the business management. Which is always a precondition on behalf of the IMF. So I, probably the room for maneuvering in financial terms is smaller or more limited when we are on the financial market because we cannot negotiate on political issues with the investors. But the request, how you implement your policy, you know, is you have far more room for maneuvering when you are on the financial market. So that's my experience. So it's very tough. But the risk is if you are not able to reduce the implementation risk of your program and you are not able to manage your program, the financial markets kill you.  And you can, so there is no other way just to be successful. That's the hunger lesson at this moment. So reduce the implementation risk as much as possible. I would never be there to do that way because that would be too risky for the nation, not for myself but for the nation if the voters would have not been so clever to provide a two-third majority for our party. Because now we have a two-third majority, we can change the constitution, we provided a new constitution for the country anyway already, we can change the two-third majority regulations which are the basic laws in Hungary. So I have the instrument to be successful in my hand. Without having that political precondition, no way to follow the strategy I have done. I don't know what's the situation here in Ireland. So I am not a person who would advise to anybody else because I understand that each country is very much different and each nation must deliver its own decisions and bear the consequences. But strong political unity behind the government, that's the number one precondition to get out, to successful get out of the crisis situation, especially when you are involved with IMF affairs. Okay. I think that's a very important statement. Yes, Kevin. Thank you. Thank you, Brandon. Thank you, Prime Minister. Kevin O'Kelly is my name. I'm a member of the Institute here but I've been doing work on and off for the European Commission in Hungary since 1990, since the changes. You mentioned during your address that you saw, if I could, maybe two related questions. You saw tackling the Roma issue at a European level and maybe, if you could, maybe expand on what you were saying there. And secondly, what is your view of the growth in the ultra-right vote in Hungary but also in other member states, Germany, France, the Netherlands were seeing this growth in ultra-right movements. And do you see this as a challenge to the future of the European Union, unity within the European Union? May I just ask you to explain a little bit the second question? No, no, no. Can I just have a live answer? Yeah, I know in Hungary, there has been growth in the right-wing parties. Also Hungary, you mean Hungary. Well, also that's reflected in other member states. Yeah, yeah, that's okay. Yeah. So Roma issue, may I have a personal remark on that? I went to the political life because we decided to destroy the communists and to get rid of them, together with the Soviet troops and to have freedom, democracy, and so on and so on.  So that alternative was not very much inspiring. So we decided to destroy the whole thing. So you will never find anybody in the European political arena who would hate more that political system than me. But at the same time, I have to say that on Roma issue, the communists were far more talented than we Democrats are. The integration of Roma community under the communist regime was rather successful. Having job, acceptable living conditions, the difference between the majority of the society and the Roma community was far slower. We were far closer to each other. So you know, the point is that now I have to face with the situation than the communists, at least on one area of life, were more successful than we Democrats are and it's unacceptable. That's my point. So that's the reason, it's personal insight, may I say. So therefore, I'm very much committed to provide evidence that democracy could be more effective than the communist regime was even in that territory. So that's the reason why I insisted on, regardless of how complicated the issue is, to put it forward. The second point I would like to make is that it's cultural a little bit. So looking at the demography tendencies inside the European Union, the challenges, the constant challenges of and temptation, that the labor difficulties could be managed by inviting, especially physical laborers from other culture background part of the world. Immigrants, may I say, economic immigrants. And I don't understand why we do that instead of to mobilize the more than 10 million people living inside the European Union having no labor at all, being unemployed. So instead of mobilize that reserve into the labor market instead of bringing people outside the Christian culture from somewhere else into the European Union territory. So I think it's not a very wise policy. So therefore, we have to mobilize the Roma population and to see it not as a burden, but as a possibility and to create regulations to have them to work. I have an experience from the communist regime they are able to work. I can't say that they are the most competitive labor force, I can't say that, but they are able and ready to work. And the certain professionals, they are excellent. So the communist regime were able to utilize it and be neglected. So that's the reason why Hungary was very strong to put the Roma issue on the European level and I'm very committed at home, Hungary, to do the job. With some limited success, may I say, at the same time. So it's not an easy job. Can you imagine families living on social aid for more than 15 years, generations growing up, having never seen their parents to wake up early morning and go to work? So they have never experienced that. So to change that kind of heritage, that's a real challenge for politicians as we are. So that's the reason why regardless of our commitment, the result is not as good now up to now as it should be. But I'm convinced that if we are able to continue to do it, we could be successful. Far right. Prior to make any comments on the far right, we have to identify ourselves a problem with the European Union. We should not neglect it. We should not hide it. So there is a problem which is the identity. It's very difficult for the people who are not politicians, are not invited Brussels every week but doing their life and job at home. To have a common, in any sense a feeling of common to a political center which is hundreds of kilometers from their nation, having procedures which are not understandable for them. And only getting news about the bad consequences they suffer because of decisions are made over there. So under that conditions, it's very difficult to create a community, a political community behind the European Union institutions. So that kind of cultural identity problem or political identity problem is on the table. And the far right has an answer to that. And if the moderate right as we are, the Christian Democrats are not able to provide the proper answer to that. You know, the far right get an advantage on it. And that's the reason why the European Union issue is politically provide more chances for the far right than for the moderate forces as we are. So we have to change it and we have to speak honestly on that problem and we have to use national rhetoric. I don't know whether in Ireland it's a bad word or not. National rhetoric is bad. No, it's okay. Lucky country. Lucky country. So we have to make clear that Europe cannot be strong without having strong nations as a member of it. So that space of the political arena should belong to us and must be occupied by us, not to the far right. So if you always accept the European liberal approaches, you know, always neglecting national approaches and cultural background issues and emotion as such from politics, you know, if you accept that kind of approach, we have the far right. So that's my analysis on European perspective. The chances of far right. The chances of far right is rather limited in Europe. So they could reach that 15% or something like that, but it's almost impossible to go beyond that. That's my understanding. The issues they provide are very emotionally motivating, but finally, all elections are about the future of our families and future of the next generation. That's the reason why governmental parties must be always very serious, you know, sometimes therefore boring, very middle-oriented because, you know, trust is the most important thing. You could find interesting and inspiring what the far right says, but you can never trust, you can never be sure that the life of your family and your nation could be based on that value successfully. So that's the reason why I think they will be present, they will have a growing impact, but they cannot go beyond a certain limit, which is a good news for us, I think so. Do you think there's a relationship between what you've been talking about now and the anti-enlargement sentiment inside the European Union as a whole? I think so, yes. What can we do to overcome the anti-enlargement sentiment? First, we have to understand that people don't like enlargement and we have to understand that we need economic success to open the gate for the new countries. So I think successful economic policy now is the best recipe for anti-enlargement feelings. On the other side, countries like we are, living at the border of the European Union or Eastern, we have to maintain the issue. Not because I think I will be successful next year, but if the pressure, the anti-enlargement pressure is strong, the pro-enlargement pressure must be at least the same level, otherwise the position will be worse and worse. So therefore, Hungary is always very much committed for enlargement, raise the question again, regardless whether what is the realistic chance for the next morning. So I think that behavior is a mission of country as we are in Central Europe. One last question, which I'm going to ask you. And it's on the record. Be careful. You're in a position better than anybody else to reflect on the relationship between the presidency of the council and the president of the European Council just recently appointed, Van Rompuy. How have you found that relationship? It very much depends on the person, on the personalities. Herman Van Rompuy is a fine gentleman. His background is very, very solid because he was a very successful finance minister. And plus he's a Belgian, if it doesn't make any sense. I'm a central Belgian. Which means that he's born for compromise. So therefore, he is the most skillful man I've ever seen to find the way to reach a compromise for 27 prime ministers. You cannot imagine five hours long meetings, how skillfully he maneuvering the position and finally we got a text. I don't know whether, is there any sense of the text but we got a text and we all agree and we are happy. So that's sometimes it has some sense, of course. So that's the first. The second is the question, what kind of personality of the rotating country prime minister has. That's very important. I'm rather an easygoing guy, may I say. So I am quite tough on certain issues but I like to play open cards or clear cards to say, okay, this is the limits, this is the red line. I cannot retreat more. And I cannot give up certain points. But anyway, if we are inside that room for maneuvering, I have no any prestigious personal points to not to make a compromise. Plus, Hungary is a happy situation because we will have an election next time, three years later on. So I don't have any short-term political interest to just appearing as a serious man and putting aside others and occupying the spaces in front of the microphones or whatever. So therefore now, we were rather lucky at this moment. Speaking about the future, I know the Polish prime minister, Don Atusk. Who is an excellent man anyway? Who is an excellent man? Very fine gentleman. And I think the Polish will be a little bit more difficult country than Hungary because Poland is bigger. Hungary is a middle-sized country. We have an understanding what is our role. But Poland's size is like Spain, you know? Not a real big one, but of course far bigger than Hungary. So to find a proper place for that size of countries is far more complicated than to find a place for a country as we are. But because of the prime minister of Poland is a very appropriate and European-minded person, I think it will go well. But to answer to your question in a nutshell, institutionally, there is no guarantee that that structure works. Please sit down. I want to thank you. Thank you.


Back up recording on and shards all you. All right. Yeah, I'll, I'll be taking this one, Sean, but thank you for getting us going. Yeah, welcome to the identity special interest group on August 10th. I'll go ahead and share my screen so we can follow along here. Can you all see this? Yep, looks great. Perfect. Well, yeah, so today we have two main things on the agenda, which is some working group status updates and then a presentation from Nick steel on credential migration for wallets and credential providers so thank you for joining us Nick and Looking forward to your presentation in just a little bit here. Of course. See, let's jump right in. Some announcements. I believe that an in-depth webinar on infosys on August 24. So go ahead and register here if that's something that's interesting to you. And then I believe this hyperledger identity. I can jump on these 10. So these four bullets just the Q3 editorial campaign is hyperledger identity. So if you have news, please let us know we'd love to signal boosted PR at hyperledger.org. Next one, Animo, who are fantastic contributors to hyperledger Ares and maintainers of some of them are maintainers of hyperledger Ares framework JavaScript. I have recently announced making Ares framework JavaScript a global framework. We've got more at that link. Basically, they're going to be raising money from funders and finding teams who want to who want to build out required infrastructure for Ares and that's really exciting and something we love to see. We see recently announced the messaging feature for their agent and wallet. You can find out more there. The leasy team is writing a blog post. They're going to post that to the hyperledger blog shortly. And then lastly, hyperledger Indy community is going to hold the second hyperledger Indy summit on September 7, 2023. The first one honestly was the best four hours I spent on Indy since I left Evernon years ago. The events going to gather the entire community together talk about the current state of Indy the future state of Indy what needs to get done. This is being driven by the maintainers and the contributors this is, I mean, it's literally not a hyperledger event but we think it's super important and we welcome everybody from this call to join back to you Tim. Awesome. Thank you Sean. Yeah, we'll go ahead and jump into some working group updates then it looks like the hyperledger Indy contributors working group met on the 1st of August. Was anyone able to attend this session that would be able to give us a summary here. Yeah, so on that call I was as well going to mention the second Indy ecosystem summit on September 7 that Sean just talked about so I'll send out the link as well. To register if anybody on this call would like to do that definitely encourage to do that. We also talked about the did Indy Indy VR work be merged into main deprecating the Indy SDK and then as well the the draft of the Indy quarterly report. So, somewhat of a short meeting but got through some good topics. Absolutely. Thank sure. The areas working group met just yesterday it looks like on the ninth was anyone able to attend that session. Oh yeah I didn't have a session. They spent most of the time. I remember talking about the EU. Yeah I just guidelines I think finally you were published and they were talking about possible ways to support the protocols and specifications that that Europe had that were far different than what I guess areas and did calm were opinionated about. Okay, sounds good. Thank you Charles. Looks like the bifold users group is not met super recently areas cloud agent Python users group met on the eighth was able anyone able to attend that session. All right, looks like they were discussing a non creds rust and acibi. Areas cloud agent Python maintainers met on the first. It was anyone able to attend this session. All right, looks like they are getting some kind of PR together and then had a discussion areas JavaScript met on the third was anyone able to attend the areas framework JavaScript meeting. Okay, looks like they're mainly discussing unqualified did migration and did peer three support some of those things versus can have pleasure and non creds met on the 31st of last month. Was anyone able to attend this non cred specification working group meeting. Okay, looks like they're discussing CL signatures. Trust over IP. And then the second stack met on the 27th of July was able to attend this to IP governance stack meeting. All right, looks like they had a presentation from Michael Parisi, and if that sounds interesting to you, you can find it at this link. Okay, looks like the two IP concepts and terminology group met on the 31st of July. Did anyone make this session. Okay, looking at TV to amongst other things did calm. Could not find it looks like the diff did calm users group met on the seventh. Was anyone able to attend this session. Okay, they've been looking at how to better market did calm recently and are working on some efforts to put a book together it looks like. I think we've met since then, I believe, unless anyone else has any other updates that brings us to the end of our working group update section. So I'll give it just a minute here and then I believe you can take it away Nick, he'd like cool. Thanks for having me again I'm going to turn on my, my camera and share my slides in one second. I have these slides available afterwards and share them with the, the rest of the group here. So I'm going to go ahead and cut over now. All right, can everyone see the stack. Yep. Cool. Right on well today I'm going to talk about credential migration, which is still pretty early days. It's some work that. I'm going to turn my video on so you can see my face hello. Credential migration is some early work and it's actually a bit of a misnomer we started to call it credential import export. Or now I guess it's being abbreviated to crimp somewhere to shrimp. But if you have any better abbreviations let me know. So import export is a better term for this and we'll kind of discuss why as we go through this but to give you some context of why we're talking about this why this is a topic being developed and why I'm talking about this specifically let me start by doing the real first thing and telling you all about myself first. So hi I'm next deal. I am a security person. I've done a myriad of things starting mostly on the security R&D side. I almost eight years ago nine years ago with duo labs. And then what duo got acquired by Cisco, and during this time I spent a lot of time working with the Fido Alliance and W3C on a mostly Web Authentic standard and Web Authentic is a standard and I think folks are probably familiar with at this point. To deal with essentially password lists credentials and pass keys and we'll talk about that term. But it kind of started to be the as as this way to have a predecessor to U2F and UAF and really merge a lot of the benefits of MFA and U2F and these like these hardware authenticators with basically use those benefits for for single factor first, you know, first factor login which is not really the right term for this but we want to just have a single credential that we used to log in and Web Authent was really hoping to make this possible. So I started as a mostly on the R&D and security engineering side and now recently have been a staff technical product manager over at one password. And what it's it's kind of funny I ended up at one password I found this great slide that I made I think in 2016 when I was still at duo where actually it was like oh one password is going to get blown away by Web Authent and so you know says last past and all these other other is there's this great stat from Dashlane saying you know everyone has all these accounts and this actually this is a great stat for why we need this credential import export format but you know by 2020 users are going to have over you know 207 accounts and credentials for each one of those and my thinking at the time was like oh you know Web Authent if we have Web Authent we won't need like Dashlane one password and all these other companies but actually you know it I think it's at least come to me that like one password and Dashlane and Bitward and Nordpass, Passball like there's a lot of other companies out there that are really really well positioned to manage user credentials, especially for handling Web Authent and acting as an authenticator in Web Authent. One password and a lot of these these other companies these third party credential providers, they're called are in I think a more in franchising state for in the industry. One of the big problems with with Web Authent credentials and other types of credentials right now like pass keys is that there's very easy user lock in, especially if users are using Apple and Google platforms to manage their credentials they tend to be pretty restricted to those ecosystems and to the systems that are able to use those so if I have you know a an Apple iCloud keychain account with all my passwords and my pass keys and all any other credentials SSL certificates it's really locked into that ecosystem. But then these third party providers like you know Dashlane and Bitward and are able to allow for access to these credentials across different platforms and through different modalities, it really opens the user up to have more freedom and sovereignty over their credentials and their identities which is really what's in I think going to become more important here and I'm sure you folks are well versed in. So I was wrong back in 2017 they're these these types of authenticators are not going away they're probably going to become more prevalent as folks have more and more credentials as Dashlane said you know back in 2015. But the big the big reason we're you know we're I think we're talking about this and by we I mean Dashlane one password and all these other credential providers is that pass keys are have been a huge huge focus for us and pass keys. It has a lot of different definitions. The this is more of the marketing term, and I think this is where a lot of confusion lies is that there's really to. There's two big public terms that I'd say kind of float around this and this is the marketing one is past keys are replacement for passwords that provide faster easier more secure signage that back. But the real the real technical side I'd say of past key is that they are a replacement for they're not a replacement but they are synonymous with the idea of a discoverable credential their credential that is managed by by a client and authenticator and then revealed to the relying party. And so you don't need things like usernames and additional referential information to be stored alongside your passwords or these types of credentials by the RP. I can go to a site and have my past key be available through my through my authenticator and client without the RP having to do a lot of any additional steps to look up keys and whatnot and they are. They are supposed to be replacement for passwords a lot of folks are using them now for MFA that's in my mind that's fine you'll get spicier takes from other people. But they should be a replacement for passwords and they are supposed to provide a faster and easier way to sign in with the benefit of being more secure for both the user and the relying party or the website using it. A lot of this conversation around past keys because you know Fido is with marketing material and has been doing it with Apple Google Microsoft. A lot of this discussion started in Fido and Fido has a tri annual plenary. The first one this year was in Dublin, and this is where myself and this is Rue Islam from Dashlane presented our kind of view of what migration should look like and now credential import export. And we got some pretty good feedback and I'm here to tell you kind of like where we're at and where we're where we're currently at and a bit of you know where we were coming from. So, at the Dublin plenary we presented some some some work that we showed over over over about a month we just kind of like we're talking back and forth. Because Rue and I are buds and we were like hey would be cool if we could do this, you know, like a better way, like a better secure way to migrate credentials between our two applications and I think Dashlane had an internal hackathon and they put together a demo I'll show you. We had a hackathon so it really just like the stars aligned and we're able to put together a really cool demo and this kind of got us on the path of saying hey we should have a more standard way to deal with this because both us and many other credential providers, including Apple and Google struggled this immensely. It's really, it's really hard to transport credentials across these, these, these boundaries these like platform boundaries so we wanted to present in at the Fido plenary, this, and it says B of F because it's the Fido birds of a feather plenary we had it's a B of we wanted to present this work to try to gain some consensus and thought around like how we could do this with other folks. So, the current state and of import and export or migration for for most companies is to output credentials into a CSV if you've ever moved from one provider credential provider to another. And then we see that it outputs a CSV and as a security person, this is probably very concerning. So, the CSV is also non standard which makes it worse importing the CSV is a bad experience both for the user because sometimes credentials are actually lost in in transit, like they just can't be parsed properly by the other side. We need to have pretty specific on marshaling code for different different types of CSV as we see so we need to know if it's coming from from last pass or Dashlane or Bitwarden or one of these other companies, because their CSV is going to be a different format Google Apple same deal. Their CSV is going to be a different format and if we don't parse it correctly, we may just drop the credential. So, unless the user tells us where the credential came from we don't know where they came from. And we also don't know if they've been properly imported or exported in a lot of cases we can just try to make a best guess. You know what we do but it adds a lot of development time and everyone really struggles with the side of it so we proposed a method where the credentials don't go into the CSV format in fact they stay encrypted through the whole process of the import export. And we want to provide a normative data format for these credentials as they go through this export. We also get get attribution, which is really great. We, we want to be able to say with confidence where they come from and this is especially important in the, in the enterprise case. You know, we, we should, we should be able to say that you know ex credentials coming from, from this provider, do you want to do it and we can get the user to actually give us some intense signaling here they could potentially use a bio metric but or at least they can have some say in the process of doing the import export aside from just like, you know, doing the CSV that that may be potentially malicious in some cases. This is really important for for enterprises to have if because enterprise important export is is a really onerous task and kind of impossible in a lot of states. The other thing that we don't really have listed here that we're trying to accomplish with the standard is to do it in a format where you could do it for one or more credentials and you don't have any guarantees around the network on which these are being available. It could be completely local. It could be semi local there could be a segregated network component where you know I'm moving credentials from my laptop which is in my office on a when and I put my credit my migration file and I'll kind of show you what that could look like on a USB stick and then I want to take it to my data center. So maybe my data center is on a completely different network and actually unable to see if they're online or offline or not but we want to be able to support these scenarios. So we have this is this was like an early example and there's a lot of different types of modalities we're thinking of right now but essentially we want something like this in some cases and after talking with Apple and and and Google they I think that they're more interesting using the OS which is fine but this would be a way for us to do it between any additional steps without any additional steps but what you can see here is we're you know on on the important export apps were creating this box we drag the box over. The box is then filled with credentials and then sent sent back to the the new the importer the new application we're going to use and then they decrypt and and store the new credentials. So this is one modality we can do and I'll kind of step you through the crypto of what's happening here and then some new modalities that we're thinking about and and where we're at in the spec so oh wait sorry. Let's go to the next slide here. So really what's happening here is and we'll step through it. Kind of bit by bit is if we look here into this top right quadrant. We're going to have a public key that we that the importing app supplies to the exporting app. And that's when you know when we create that empty boxing drag it in what's happening is that box is essentially just a public key. The exporting app then uses that public key and their private key to derive a symmetric key, which we then use to encrypt the data and this is similar to us. And, and we encrypt with this and then bundle that encrypted data along with some metadata that includes the exporting app public key. If we pass that back, the, the original importing app will use their private key and then the exporting apps public key to, you know, derive the symmetric key again, and then we'll, we'll decrypt that data and store the credential data using that that credential data format that you know we're we're hopefully going to develop here as well. So this is this was kind of the original thought and this is still like a good way of doing it. But one could also do this using hybrid public key encryption, which is a newer standard and also developed by an old colleague of mine from Cisco Richard Barnes along with some other folks. This is currently, I think an informative RFC in itf. We could, we could potentially do, do key encapsulation here, where we actually just encrypt a key with the exporter exporters public key and then and then they decrypt that and are able to encrypt with the, with the negotiated or the encapsulated key. So, this, this is also a method that we really do want to account for and I think I've been talking with a lot more folks about recently and so we'll kind of talk about like where things are at but you know I don't want it to be to I don't want this to be too prescriptive, but we should be using cryptography methods to to make this easier another thing that we want to do account for to in the in the case of enterprise migration, or even some consumer migration steps is is potentially the presence of an authorizing party and this can work with the HPK or the HPHelman setup but an authorizing party could essentially authorize it could act as a credential authority in it throughout most of this. And so in the case of you know I'm at XO corp, and we're migrating from password provider to, we could provide our own sort of authority to handle the public and private keys necessary for both of these, these applications to, to migrate between each other and also get approval for authorization from from the enterprise to do so. So that's kind of like the three things we really were looking at in terms of architecture. But you know the important overlap here is that we're using these modern public key encryption schemes we're using things like Diffie help and which is triding true and we're using these hybrid public key encryption schemes which could could potentially be used in one to many scenarios which is also something we might want to account for. And we're able to provide this user intent and provider attribution through these public keys you know these keys could potentially be provided through an X 509 certificate so in the case we had that authorizing party they could either issue the certificates are authorized or really verify the certificates being used. So we can get some better ideas around attribution and identity not only of the user but of the application. And then what we don't describe here really is that migration format but this is really an early development and is going to help provide things like data integrity hopefully where we can, you know, know for sure that certain credentials have been unpacked or if they can be unpacked we know where they exist and can be used or we have ways to remediate their usage. So this this work also should be the foundation for further I'd say work with regards to authenticators especially third party authenticators like ourselves at one password. Where we can deal with things like potentially referential integrity and credentialing where we could either import a credential or reference or if or if we can't import it reference a credential from another wallet and and potentially ask for signatures against it and this would I'd say look similar probably to like an O off flow, but this is that's all I think pretty, pretty far out, but by providing a lot of this work now, we can lay a path for this to be successful later on. So, I mean outside of the that that transmit that sort of referential foundation, the real reason this this this work is important now and in the long term is that this now raises the bar dramatically for users security security during migration and import export of credentials. Having, in a lot of cases, import like when you when you import or export credentials you're, you're dealing with, you're dealing with CSVs. And if you're not you're you have to have this trusted middle party to migrate the credentials over for you and you know in the case that you're online and you say hello hey dash lane, could you share credentials with X, or one password, could you move your credentials over to why you usually have to have some other root of trust in there to handle that interim movement. This, this work would allow, allow us to kind of have have the user be able to, to not only, you know, provide their own threat model and account for their their own security but also they don't, you know, in the case of bulk movement of credentials you, you don't have the CSV anymore and so that's going to be a huge left. Multiple authenticators and credentials can lead to bad UX for users but this is I mean this has been kind of a, a, a, not a requirement but like a heavy ask, since day one of WebAuthn where we, you know, are our best recourse against things like account recovery and needing to deal with like you know account loss was we you know we would say that you should enroll many many credentials enroll as many WebAuthn credentials with the site as you can. But this also requires many authenticators a lot of the time because you don't want to have all your same credentials in the same bucket now Pasky's help with this because they are sinkable. They're not going to cross many devices, but a lot of the time as I mentioned before those credentials are locked into certain what are called identity fabrics. You know, like I they're locked into my Apple iCloud key chain account they're locked into my Microsoft Windows Hello account they're locked into my Google federated account. There's no good. This can help facilitate that crossover between these different these different fabrics and also allow for better use cases of multiple authenticators so we can have multiple credentials you should. I think and it's actually going to be easier for the user. And having a flow for handling things like import export could lead to things like, you know where I don't necessarily if I create a credential with one authenticator I don't necessarily need to go create a bunch of other credentials with my different authenticators I can potentially import that same credential into different authenticators and have it available across, you know, different fabrics and different devices, if that makes sense. So this format for the transmission of credentials is also going to be super important, especially as modern identity standards rely more on user bound and device bound credentials. So being able to move credentials that are associated with say, you know, MDLs or verifiable credentials is going to is is is going to happen and transmission is going to need to happen in a secure manner. And so being able to define this work now for those other standards and for ourselves over in W3C or really in what about then working group and vital lines is going to be important. So let's provide this this more seamless transition I think in the long term and I think that's pretty far out between credentials as they're used by users, devices, and workloads and units of computation. I think that, you know, as as user and, and really computer credentials become more similar. There's going to be more crossover and having not only a format for these credentials but a way to securely import and export them is going to be really necessary. So, there's general generally there's been some some, so there's been a lot of support so far for all this work, especially from from Apple and Google but also from the other credential providers. I mentioned before it's like we wrote this with Dashlane we've been working a lot with with Bitward and NordPass, Keeper, Passball, and other providers to really make this work and everyone's pretty pretty jazzed about it I'd say and then the the current kind of roadmap for for how we're going to put this together is in October FIDO has another plenary and we hope to talk about it then and then in November the IETF is meeting for I believe 118 in Prague. And if this work doesn't get picked up in FIDO it'll it's going to get picked up in IETF it's currently being drafted by myself as a as an internet draft and it can move into FIDO and there's discussion of it moving to FIDO I am not picky. I as long as we're as this continues development it can it can live on the moon for all I care. So, we're also working with a few other providers like, I guess I can't mention any by name but we're working, we're working to align on a PSC development between a few different folks. So, the early, getting early feedback from folks here is also like appreciated but definitely not expected we're still in very early draft and the document is pretty non normative at this point but you know if anyone feels compelled to do so, feel free to to reach out. So if you can reach out to me at Nick, Nick got steel at actual bits. You can also check out the GitHub repose for cred migration, or I guess now crimp and crimp data over in our org which is the credential provider special interest group we're having a lot of these discussions within the credential provider special interest updates, I think every four weeks now in the FIDO Alliance which I chair with or co chair with Dashlane and Apple. If you're also a credential provider you're free to join. If this develops I imagine there'll be more public forums for for discussion of it but you know if, if not, feel free to reach out and, and I can invite you to all the channels and and slacks and discourse. But that's that's kind of like where we're at. And I'm happy to take any questions now on on the topic. And slash comments. One is, we have had reports of some password keepers getting hacked. I think, very recently, where they lost. I mean, it, you know, it's basically a concentration of all your credentials in one place. For an individual, and also it's almost like a honeypot for because it, it has so much information stored away. Was it last pass or was it something like that that got hacked. And they lost a lot of. So, so these are some of the dangers with this sort of. Not correct is, did that not happen or is it, you know, am I imagining things. So last past did. Last past did experience a breach. You can read. You can read, you can read a lot of articles around how it happened. And this is not the first time that I've, they've experienced a breach. What I'll say is, you know, most, most credential providers have different security models and different threat models. And credential managers as a whole are, are, are a better way to, to, to manage and create and manage credential, like online credentials for the user. They create credentials with higher randomness that are harder to crack that are. And change the, the, your, your, your threat boundary from, you know, in the case of like generating one path, like generating pass keys. Right. If I generate a pass key and store it on an authenticator or stored on a, on a, in a credential manager, an attacker would now really need to have access to my physical device in order to get access to this pass key. Now, they could potentially, you know, with, with a fair amount of effort. Get all the, like get the keys that they need to crack into a credential manager account but I, there's, it definitely raises the, the amount of resources needed to do so and so I, you know, each credential manager is, is, is a, is a bit different. One password dash lane. I believe a bit more than others we all have white papers published that explain how our crypt, our cryptography works and how our applications work we're pretty open about it. I can't speak to, I can't really go into depth too much on like, you know why I think last past experience to vulnerable, an issue here but it's, I do think that, you know, on the whole, using a credential manager is better than not using one at all. Yes, I mean, you know, it's evident, but, but like I said, if it leads to a concentration of, of things in one place, people get more by attacking something like that but anyway, let leave that aside, because that is a specific breach for a specific password manager. Now let's move on to your suggestions for this. One of them, you know, the most important one, which you talked about here is basically the protocol itself of the key exchange and the encryption and so on and so forth, right. I mean, that's, that's what you focused on in this presentation. So the standard Divi Hellman. Excuse me. And then of course the, the hybrid key thing that you talked about. It looks like somebody else has a question but you know I would like to continue this, this kind of exchange about this whole process. He seems to have asked a question so I'll withdraw for now but I'll come back once you have answered his question. Well I was actually moving to your question with this key exchange allow the way it's written now, do you guys envision this transfer working between, say a credential provider and self custody of past keys. Yes, 100%. This shouldn't, this shouldn't be, if you, if you are able to. Yeah, we want to standardize it if you can make the X, if you can generate your own export request you can have your own pass key provider you could have your own credential manager you can make one from scratch. But, you know, if what we want to standardize is the ability for you to say hey I just wrote my own credential manager that I trust, and I want to move from, you know, one password to that new manager. I want to create the export request and parse the, the, the import response, then like your, your, your good. And that's, so we want to make we want to make this accessible for everyone and really enfranchise all credential providers and managers. Okay, so, so the, so the earlier question, it would make it easier to go to a hosted provider or to my own local whatever. Yeah, and in the case of local providers, I believe, like PassBalt is kind of a more local provider you. Yeah, we, we, we envision a way where we can just provide a more equitable way for, for these, these transitions to work where we don't need to, you know, support specific managers and providers, if you want to do import export we're just all going to start talking the same language. Thanks. Continue. That one we just talked about where, you know, if it's a local provider, basically it's going to be, you know, some, some kind of a vault where that data is stored and now then if I can put that vault onto a commonly accessible backplane, then I can use it from another device, even though I mean is that correct I mean even if it's locally hosted, so to say, meaning that it's not in a central location with like a, you know, like a hosted provider. So, I will say that this is out of scope for the, for the discussion of credential import export. So for this protocol, we make no assumptions about the credential manager and the security properties that they're in. I would, as I said earlier that credential managers and credential providers that that are commonly used all have sort of slightly different security properties and threat models that they use. But all generally will publish a white paper or some public documentation around how they work and how they store credentials. I would say that that would probably be the best way to figure out how this works behind the scenes I encourage you to look at the one passwords white paper that we publish online and I'm happy to provide that link later. But I'm not making any assumptions and I'm not. And the, the storage and of the vault is sort of out of scope for when I'm when I'm talking about credential transport. Sounds, sounds reasonable. Well, of course, you know, the reading of white paper like that, and figuring out the security properties of the protocol, especially with respect to whether the actual implementation follows that white paper is a slightly sophisticated. You know, ask of any, any user. I mean, it's not going to be a common user that's going to do this. It's going to be just security researchers or crypto analysts or you know somebody else who's going to do those kind of things. So yes, I mean in the sense it's open source that like that. I mean the method itself. That is a very good thing. I'm sorry, am I not being heard properly is that why you're leaning forward or. No, no, no, I agree it's just I think it's so you know a similar argument can be made for taking the COVID-19 vaccine it's just like, I don't necessarily you know, I know it's not. I mean, okay, let's not go to the vaccine thing. No, no, no. You know, it's the same case of like I think there's a okay a more I'd say more friendly example of it would be like any any other system that you use your Google Chrome browser. You have to have some amount of trust within the the.  Okay, so that's. But you know, it's like there's an argument made it's like I'm not saying you have to trust the science so you can read the. No, no, but what I'm saying is when I'm when I'm putting forth an argument like oh I have a white paper you guys can read it and you can see. So then you know then this that's what prompted this counter not like you know. Yeah, for sure not not a not a generic, you know statement about the technical imperviousness to normal folk of any solution. Yeah, I agree I think it's in most in most cases there's going to be some amount of trust necessary that these systems are going to operate in the way that they do. But when it comes to what we really want to, you know, have the sort of roots and anchors of trust in this with regards to this protocol is that the, when the credentials are in trends that that they are encrypted in a format that is that you know, be safe for storage and also, you know, there won't be a possibility of saying downgrading the the encryption of those keys. You could potentially generate a, you know, if I have a here to kind of go back to the example and I'll share my screen again. If, if I have an importing app here. That is that they could potentially provide a type of public key that results in the derivation of a weak symmetric key. If that data is encrypted I could pretend I could potentially exploit that weakness and decrypt the data without without necessarily needing the the a you know the private key outright that that could potentially be dangerous. But generally for trusting certain certain curves used for for Diffie Hellman or for HPK, then that that's where the the roots of trust lies are we are we trusting that the cryptography and the curves being used our sound here. Yeah, I mean that's a basic assumption in every sort of exchange like that right I mean, because you don't. You just want the protocol itself to be secure. If it is done properly, quote unquote, right. I mean that's, yeah, that's an assumption.  And we think that our providers are most are trustable. Right. Tim spring has got a his hand raised. I don't have my hand raised, but then sorry for the confusion. Oh, oh, maybe I do. Yeah, it's me. I don't have my hand to blame because I when I put it over your, your rectangle it, it comes up with the raised hand. Anyway, back to. So, the thing that two things one is of course, interoperability sort of area or ecosystem is a source of vulnerability because, because obviously, if both, if both the, you know, the source and the sync systems are pretty secure. It could be that, you know, so obviously I understand why this needs to be very foolproof because that otherwise it would be, it would be the weakest link, you know, weakest point in the attack surface. The other thing which you did mention and which I guess we didn't go into was the format of the, the actual exchange itself. Are you guys working on that or is it, I mean, meaning, are there standards for this sort of thing. Yeah, so this, this is the, there's, there's two. There's going to be two separate drafts, there's going to be one for the protocol itself and then one for the data format. There's not a lot of preexisting work that I found that. That really, that's really great for transmission of sensitive material. I've been taking I think a lot of inspiration from Brent Zundell and, and Olivier. Pierre's last name, but over at spruce ID from terrible. Yeah. So they're, they've been working on a lot of stuff with regards to, to to job formats and I, I think a lot of those really coincided with what we're thinking about now. But, you know, as, as I said, it's like very early days there, I think I have a meeting starting tomorrow to kick it off in earnest, but I've been mostly focused on the protocol side of the house and getting folks aligned there. Okay, because I think that that's obviously another key item, the, the format. Absolutely. And I think the format is really going to be. It's, it's important to have a format that that is able to accomplish, like, not only just the movement of credentials, but the reference of credentials and pointing to credentials that may not be able to move, and also being able to handle things that may not be, you know, to handle credentials that could just be raw data, or even, you know, maybe it's it's bytes provided for a PDF and the PDF is being used for some format heck maybe someone has shimmed byte data into a PDF file, which I've seen before. There, there's a lot of different formats this data can take. But being able to, to have a standard envelope in which to package those discrete credentials and the data associated with it is really, is really important here and then also being able to, you know, if I move a passkey that is potentially, you know, DCA, or sorry, Elliptic Curve 256. And I move it over to some credential provider that that is not capable of using say Elliptic Curve signatures. Being able to have a way for that other manager to say hey maybe, or I can't use this. So I can either do one of two things I can go reference, or go talk to a credential manager that can do it, like the credential manager that just tried to export it. Or I can go to the relying party or the website and say hey, I have. Somebody's I knew a lot of balloons. My news. What's it, the new version of Mac of Mac OS Sonoma added a reaction layer. So the, the, the other form, the other thing they can do is go to a website and say hey I have this old credential I can't use it can we make an, can we figure out how to make a new one. In a lot of cases I don't think they may be able to do that outright without the help of the old authenticator but there's there it this opens up paths for for remediation, which is really also going to be necessary here because as I mentioned earlier on there's a lot of, there's a lot of cases and a lot of times where, you know, if I import from one provider to another, I'll end up with five, six, more credentials that have been improperly imported. Because they're either, you know, not not in the proper format or they're like a credit, you know, it's a credit card and it just doesn't unpacked properly so it ends up being the the other provider thinks it's a note so it gets put in the wrong category there's there's lots of sort of Yes, yes, I'm very familiar with this phenomenon having work, you know, around these kind of problems for a long long time and I, I think, you know, on the very base base in a very basic sense it's almost like casting right I mean you have a type you want to cast it to some other type, you know, either lose information along the way because of whatever you know the representation doesn't support it or, you know, there are there are you know it's a it's a basic problem in in computer programming, I believe, I mean, oh yeah, it's GPT will solve this right we'll just pass the credential through the AI and they'll be like I know maybe maybe maybe inject some hallucinations into it and then left with a credential that is just you and a merge of you and your or something I mean, you know, yeah. So, that's, that's all, you know, the problems are what I'm saying is, I am pretty sure many of these problems have been looked at in other fields, and I'm basically urging you to take a look at some of those areas like, like, for example, did come, you know, very simple thing. I mean, it's not simple but communication between to through a third medium which is not secure, you know, and they had to figure out a lot of these kind of problems. So, you know, basically, what I'm saying is, maybe, maybe you can be helped by looking at some of these things and I am also the chair of the interoperability working group in, in, you know, in a, in ITU, which is to do with transporting digital assets across different.  So, not to believe the point but what I'm saying is, you, your problem has similarities to other problems. And maybe, you know, you can take a look at some of those to help. Oh, yeah. No, I, yeah, as I said, it's like I've been talking with Brent and Oliver and Olivia and I definitely interested in in did come as well I think I'm trying to, there's a lot of recent and existing sort of thought in the space and I'm definitely interested in incorporating. Yeah, so, you know, I would definitely help if I can. That'd be great. Now, and I think we have reached the end of our time, and it was a wonderful talk. Thank you for handling this important topic. Both thank you for having me and I'm glad I'm able to speak to you and the rest of the hyperlature folks about it. So thanks for having me. Yeah, thank you, Nick.