will continue to fight for excellence in education. And now very much and I thank you very much and thank all of you very much. I can't think of a more appropriate place to be on July 5th, the morning after our 207th national birthday, and at a gathering of the men and women responsible for America's future. Yours is a sacred mission. In the words of Henry Adams, a teacher affects eternity. Each of you, as tiring and routine as your daily duties may sometimes seem, is a keeper of the American dream, the American future. By informing and exercising young minds, by transmitting learning and values, you are the vital link between all that is most precious in our national heritage, and our children and grandchildren who will someday take up the burdens of guiding the greatest, freest society on earth. I'm also particularly happy to be addressing a gathering of the American Federation of Teachers. Oh, I know there's a pretty big education organization out there, but it's been my experience that dedication, open-mindedness, and initiative count for just as much as size, and it seems to me that in all three categories, the AFT, like Avis, tries a lot harder. For this, you have my sincere admiration and my pledge to work with you in building a creative, lasting dialogue on a subject close to all our hearts. The renewal of excellence in American education. Of course, we have our differences, and both this administration and the AFT believe in the benefits of vigorous debate, and that's what living in an open, free society is all about. We both made our positions well known, and I'm not here today as a salesman trying to peddle a pre-packaged all-purpose off-the-rack education program. I am fully aware that there are some major areas where we disagree, matters like tuition, tax credits, and vouchers. But as the very genius of our democratic pluralistic system, our society, the key to its unequal success over more than two centuries, that individuals who sincerely disagree on some matters can still work together in mutual respect and understanding to serve a higher goal. And I defy anyone to name a higher common goal of domestic policy than working for a renaissance in American education. Not that long ago, American public education was one of the marvels of the world. Wave after wave of immigrants from the far corners of the earth came to our shores with little more than the clothes on their backs and hope in their hearts. Many were illiterate, victims of grinding poverty here as well as in the old country. But the public school system, often within a single generation, provided a magic ladder to full participation in American life. And it taught their children more than just the skills they needed for a more abundant life. It taught them the solid values of good citizenship. To a very large extent, America's schools provided the social bond that gave meaning to the word America, that made us in the midst of our ethnic diversity one nation under God indivisible with liberty and justice for all. And you know, speaking of that, I don't know whether I just came across this little item the other day about a teacher at a very, very beginning level of elementary education who was having a little trouble at that tender age and the students in telling them about how you, where you put your hand when you recited the pledge and all they didn't really know the location of the internal organs and putting their hand on their heart didn't mean too much to them. And finally, he showed the ingenuity that is typical of good teaching. He told them to put their hands on the alligators. But yes, to a very great extent, it was our schools where most Americans heard and spoke the Pledge of Allegiance for the first time that transformed those heart-stirring words into a living ideal. An ideal each generation has come closer to attaining. Our public schools have played a great historic role in shaping our democracy, and they have a crucial role to play today. You and the AFT can help lead the way. And that's why I'm less deterred by the differences between us than I am encouraged by the important areas of agreement that we share. The AFT wants to upgrade standards, including emphasis on testing both students and beginning teachers, changing curriculum to strengthen academic requirements and increasing homework assignments. Well, so do I. The AFT believes in stricter discipline codes in schools, including provisions to remove students who have histories of repeated disruptive behavior. And so do I. The AFT supports many aspects of this administration's bilingual education legislation, which favors local autonomy and deciding what method will be most effective to teach children who are limited in their ability to speak English. We both agree that children who are truly in need and cannot function in English in a regular classroom environment deserve help. But we also recognize that bilingual programs should serve as a bridge to full participation in the American mainstream. They should never permanently segregate non-English speaking students in a way that will make it harder, not easier for them to succeed in life. There are so many other values and beliefs that we share. The AFT understands the importance of a strong national defense, not just for our own sake, but the sake of our friends and allies in the Americas, Europe, Asia and the Middle East. Only a strong, credible America can preserve our freedom at home, deter aggression, pursue the cause of meaningful arms reductions and stand by our friends in time of need. I also want to commend the AFT for its recognition of the need to upgrade math and science education and for its ringing condemnation of those organizations, one of which I referred to earlier, who would exploit teaching positions and manipulate curriculum for propaganda purposes. On this last issue, you stand in bright contrast to those who have promoted curriculum guives that seem to be more aimed at frightening and brainwashing American school children than at fostering learning and stimulating balanced intelligence debate. Working together, we can accomplish so much, and we know there is so much to do. When I ran for president in 1980, I said that this country must recognize the problems in our educational system and start doing something about them. For one thing, many teachers were facing a virtual mission impossible. I noted at the time that you'd been forced to deal with negative, often destructive trends from outside your classrooms. We can only admire the dedication with which the great majority of teachers has tried to meet these problems.  It wasn't you the teachers who encouraged the banality of TV over the beauty of the written word. And it wasn't teacher who asked for a Washington knows best attitude that too often showered you with rules, regulations, and uniformity while discouraging the rich variety and excellence of our heritage. For too long, you've been fighting a lonely war, and it's about time you got some reinforcement from the rest of us. And that was one of the main reasons I moved early in this administration to do something never tried before. We wanted a thorough no holes barred study that would stimulate debate and action. So we set up a bipartisan group, the National Commission on Excellence in Education. As you know, the commission recently came out with its report card and it was pretty tough. The commission found that about 13% of our 17 year olds are functional illiterates. And the rate was much higher than that to minority youth. About four fifths of our high schools, high schoolers can't write a decent essay. And most of them do less than an hour of homework a night. In many schools, the hours spent learning how to cook and drive count as much toward a high school diploma as those spent studying mathematics, English, chemistry, US history, or biology. Maybe that helps explain why verbal and math college board scores fell 50 and 40 points respectively between 1963 and 1980. Well, predictably, some people are already wringing their hands at this bad news and casting about for scapegoats. But I deeply believe that this cloud has a silver lining. I believe it can mobilize, energize and unify this country in a way that we haven't seen for years. Instead of worrying about whether we put together a Republican plan or a Democratic plan, can't we join together on a course of common sense for an American plan? Let us stand together. Parents, teachers, concerned citizens, and let us say yes to the challenge of a national agenda for excellence that will uplift every child in our land. America is not a defeatist nation. We came back from Pearl Harbor to win the greatest military victory in history. We came back from the shock of Sputnik to send our astronauts to the moon and bring them safely home. I believe the nation that met those great challenges can surely meet another. Let us resolve today the United States will not only reverse its decline in college board scores. We will raise verbal and math scores at least 50 points and do it within the next decade. At the heart of the Commission's report and our agenda are two themes I've long advocated. First, true excellence in education will require much greater emphasis on the basics. Basic skills of learning and teaching with discipline, basic standards and rewards for excellence, and basic values of parental involvement and community control. Second, to meet the demands of this fast changing world, we need also to broaden our vision of education. Education must become more than just the province and responsibility of our schools. It's also an integral part of our homes, churches, synagogues, communities and workplaces and we must recognize that. To advance our agenda for excellence, I strongly endorse the Commission's fundamental recommendations. The Commission seeks to require four years of English in high school, three solid years of math, science and social studies and one half year of computer science. It calls for more and longer school days, tighter discipline, higher goals and tougher standards for matriculation and graduation. Also for improved preparation for teachers and better rewards for teachers who excel and I say, amen. The Commission recognizes that school officials must take the lead in developing community support and that states and localities have the primary responsibility for school finance. We've already seen strong evidence that the Commission's report touched a nerve. All over America, it's stimulating debate and sparking action. The board in Ypsilanti, Michigan has voted to extend their elementary school day and raise high school graduation requirements. In Illinois, high school graduation requirements are also being increased. Ditto for Washington state and also Virginia where the school board of education plans to overhaul their public school curriculum this summer. As president, I intend to do everything I can to promote and enhance these reforms and to broaden the scope of education throughout our society. For example, to help reform the education system, there are areas where the federal government can make a direct contribution. Being prepared for the new era in high technology will require improved teaching of math and science. So we've proposed legislation to stimulate training of more math and science teachers. We're also beginning a new program, one I'm participating in myself, to honor some of America's best math and science teachers and our efforts go beyond math and science. Bill Bennett, our chairman of the National Endowment for the Humanities, is offering summer seminars so high school teachers can increase their teaching competence in history, literature and the other humanities. We recognize, as most of you, as most teachers always have, that good teaching also means a lifelong commitment to learning. Now, many if not all of these concepts are supported by the AFT, and we welcome your support. It's going to take the best efforts of all of us to achieve our goal of making America education great again. I also want to commend the AFT for its fair, open-minded approach to other potential means of encouraging good teaching and good teachers. I'm thinking of things like new approaches to differential pay, such as the proposal of Governor Lamar Alexander of Tennessee, which would include peer review by engaging in free and open discussion and by demonstrating a willingness to examine new ideas even when they may require thinking or rethinking long held views. The AFT is once again providing an example of positive leadership and winning respect for the teaching community. Working with you, with state and local leaders and with parents and concerned citizens across the country, we can and we will climb the lofty peak to excellence in education. Clark Mullanoff, a tough-minded journalist who also understands the crucial importance of parents and teachers, said it very well in a poem he wrote called Teacher. You are the molders of their dreams, heroes who build or crush their young beliefs in right or wrong. You are the spark that sets a fire a poet's hand or lights the flame in some great singer's song. You are the idols of the young, the very young. You are their models by profession set apart. You are the guardians of a million dreams. Your every smile or frown can heal or pierce a heart. Yours are 100 lives, 1000 lives. Yours is the pride of loving them, the sorrow too. Your patient work, your touch, make you the source of hope that fills their souls with dreams and make those dreams come true. I appreciate this opportunity to meet with you today. I hope it will prove to be the first chapter in a long and productive relationship. We won't always agree, life would be pretty dull if we did, but with a spirit of positive candid cooperation, we can do much for the country we love and for the young people we serve. Thank you and God bless you.


Efforts to bring back the controversial disbustment of 500 billion Naira loan to six geopolitical zones of Nigeria suffered a setback during Wednesday's plenary. The Senate president Gautz-Lakbabio stood down a motion on the matter. Sponsor of the motion and Senate Chief Whip Ali-Undime had queried a rationale behind a stepping-down noting that the fund was unevenly shared among states. The motion, which borders on the unequal disbustment of the loan, sought amongst other things, tore an investigation into the matter. The president of the Senate, however, told the Chief Whip that an ad hoc committee headed by Sani Musa had already addressed the issues raised in the motion. As my privilege, up to now, I swear to God, I'm not supposed to even do that. I've lost in the report. I'm a senator. I moved the motion because I have my reason, my people, as you've changed. This is a serious matter. 500 billion was distributed and the other geopolitical zones got only 11 percent. My whole region got only 1 percent. It's not a laughing matter. It's not a serious matter that needs to be addressed. The chairman of the ad hoc committee that sat on this particular motion is here. The senator, Sani Musa, and he informed me just now that he has presented the report and the report has been adopted. What that simply means is a question which will ask is, have they forwarded the resolution of this Senate to the executive? If it has been forwarded, then further legislative work to be done is for us to investigate what is the status with that particular resolution as passed by the Senate. If it has not, that means it's an entirely new motion, new report that needs to be prepared and forwarded to the Senate. When we were deliberating, we included almost every senator from each geopolitical zone and we have been having that meeting of which the chief wave have attended that meeting about twice. But the meeting continued and if you recall the time we were about to submit the report, the chief wave I called you, you were in Maiduguri and when they submitted the signature sheet to me for that report, you signed the report. Like any other, it was the only report I have seen that all the members of that committee signed. So I'm surprised that the wave have not seen it, but he has signed it and it's a document, it's a document, you will see it and it's not an interim document, it is a report, final report and it has been adopted, it was debated here and passed and adopted. Relying on order 63 of Babio urged in Dumair that a matter that has been stepped down can only be brought back to the floor through a substantive motion. After the Senate president ruling, Senator Dumair insisted that he be given an opportunity to present his motion as issues daring or personal to him as a representative of his people. When you say you have submitted the report and you ambush people to submit the report, only when those are interested are not there. He asked me to sign on to an interim report, I still repeat, I'm not a small boy. You should have given me the report. I've given you the report now. I have not seen the report. This is a privilege of mine. What are you talking about? I have not seen the report. And the report was so concerned at the end, at the tail end of our tenor. And what you are saying was an anomaly, where you see on this issue today, the Senate president has already ruled on it. And when the matter is stepped down, it does not mean it cannot resurface. So I want to refer you to order 63. This week only please read order 63. The president of the Senate and the chairman in any committee shall be responsible for the observance of the rules of order in the Senate and the committee respectively. And the decision upon any point of order shall not be open to appeal and shall not be reviewed by the Senate, except upon a substantive motion of sandwiches. If, since I've ruled on it, if you want to repeal, you must come with a substantive motion. This issue is trusted. Notified about fresh news updates.


In this video, we'll look at adding categories to articles on Wikipedia. Categories are down the very bottom of a Wikipedia page or article, and look like this. The categories for people often include their date of birth, occupation, awards won or the university they graduated from. For a musician, it could have the record label they released music on or the instrument they play. Adding categories to a Wikipedia article helps group similar subjects together. For example, if you were reading a Wikipedia article about an Australian jazz musician, and you wanted to read similar articles, going to the bottom of the page and clicking on a category would bring up a list of other articles, like this. Some Wikipedia articles have lots of categories, while others only have a few. This is a new article about Bill Armstrong that has no categories yet. Looking at the article, his date of birth is mentioned, we can see he has some awards, and he is a record producer. This information could be used in categories. To add a category, click edit to start editing the Wikipedia article. For this tutorial, we're using visual editor. If your screen doesn't look like this, you might be in the source editor. Click on the pencil icon to change between these two editors. Once you're in visual editor, we click on these three lines, then click categories. We can start adding categories by typing in this box, and it will suggest categories. Because there are none here, I'll add the following, living people, because the subject of this article is alive, 1929 births, because the article says that this is his date of birth. This is of the order of Australia, because he was awarded that. Australian record producers, because that's his occupation. If there isn't a category there that you think should exist, check on similar articles on Wikipedia first. Sometimes the structure of a category might be different than expected, so Australian jazz musicians doesn't exist, but jazz musicians from Australia does exist. Once you've finished adding categories, just publish your changes the same as when you make any edit to a Wikipedia article. When writing biographies, categories that are useful to remember are living people, if the person is living, date of birth missing, with living people in brackets, if the Wikipedia article doesn't list a date of birth, date of birth missing, same as above, but for people who have died, 1987 births, or whatever year they were born, 1988 deaths, or whatever year they died, jazz musicians from Australia, or switch jazz musicians for whatever that person is known for. For organisations, you can use similar categories like 1965 establishments in Australia, 2006 disestablishments in Australia, recording studios in Australia, companies of Australia, companies based in Sydney, and just swap out the year or name with the correct information for your Wikipedia article.


So we're excited about Clark and talk about you can't have too many defensive backs that can cover and take the ball away and the quick athletic speed instincts ball skills again a tough competitive player play it a tough program I mean the way they do things there so very excited about the player and again we always go back to it but high character smart intelligent he's about what we're about so we're excited to add him to the group yeah I mean he can do both so that that's usually you know this isn't full on projection you know there's so many different coverage of your watch watching guys when you're projecting them and there's some guys in this draft that maybe in a certain scheme they're safety but they end up covering the slot all the time or there's guys outside but depending on their big man team you know they're gonna get inside anyways by matchups or you know the different the multiple schemes they were on but yeah we got like Clark highly productive but which I think is one of the better programs that sustained success it's a lot of us we have a lot of respect for that Utah program and certainly the way they play defense and so we love their interactions with them this is a guy that we had conviction on cross the board and we were excited that he was there we picked him guys like him can play inside or outside and also that he talks about sometimes safety in the longer term future is that you see you know Mike it's it's just that you know we joke about all the time like I was joking last night about D less depth chart and stuff like that it's things have become so multiple you know when you're sitting there and you teams that want to bring a lot of pressures or they're trying to disguise or they they take a nickel corner and you're bringing pressure and all of a sudden he goes in plays the back half you know it's just that's that's what's in vogue right now you know multiple schemes in the back end you know final coverage you know that's what sometimes you're trying to trick these quarterbacks and so what that does is like you know they show him something and then guys are now running the middle like the middle replayer and cover two that I used to see you know Brian Erlach a run it was always a Mike linebacker well now guys are multiple whether it's a nickel sometimes the corner safety so these guys have so a lot of experience coming in and that's just kind of where the game's gone it's no different than the offensive skill guys I know there's a lot but I just want to give context to it's like it's not as big of a leap sometimes with some of these players because they've done some of these jobs before depending on the schemes they've come from with a guy like Clark though highly intelligent high instinctive his competitiveness I'm sure you guys could feel that in the interview I was about to ask y'all talk to him already yeah pretty confident isn't it yeah I play pretty good you defense it you talk to so one of the first things he mentioned to us was how much emphasis he puts on film study not something that you necessarily hear a lot of college defensive backs bring up so high in conversations how much was that to you yes sir yes sir and you can see that because a player like this and when you talk about anticipation and the way he studies routes and you can see the to have six interceptions that's a you got to study film and so you know that he's that type of guy and the football character is really high again we always talk about our area scouts and how good of a job they do they're in the schools and they gather all the information but all high grades on those areas the football care to the personal care to the football intelligence film junkie Jim rat all those things and so you know all that about them and then it matches with the tape when you watch the tape and then when we get to spend more time with him in person it all goes together because we wouldn't put too much if we spend 20 minutes with him at the combine we spend a little time with that when you spend time with players you what has a larger weight is all the information that the area scouts have gotten on the player for the last couple years and so but that part he definitely checks that intelligence part that that box was talking about his his play strength is that something that you can see on tape in terms of being physical absolutely you see when he walks in there you know that's what sometimes people they get so caught up on the weight right and everybody's body counts are different you know even when you're going through Scott and you know it's it's a fence if you're a rigid thinker fix like I have to have guards all under 310 well there's some guys now better be 325 and they don't have a lot of body fat and they can move you know it's it's you know there's a lot more goes in than just that fixed number of the weight in the way that guy like Clark I mean I mean he's a muscle of guy you know so that weight and the weight carries it you know dense you know that especially this time of year whether it's hand size or you know the weight they weigh in at the and at the combine and then they don't do anything else and then they come back they won't weigh into the pro days and something like that but it's a lot of it's a body composite how they're how they're really built and so if I've had players that are 190 90 pounds and you know they're they're built differently and they just they're compact and there's other guys that it may be 190 that every time they go on the field they get something that's injured or you know same thing with the big guys so I think a lock it's made about the number but there's a lot of other factors that go on to it respect Terry we talk a lot this week just about finding value where you can find value with players and he's a guy when you look at his production he's you know all-american and he's at 113 I would imagine that's in depth in part down to his his size is that just an area where you feel like you can manage that in some respects and pick up a good ball playing defensive back you're saying that with the size being an exception term size yeah but if you really look through it there've been a lot of corners at that height that have played in the NFL and been really productive in the NFL and then you just go through the list there's a lot of really good football players not just in recent years but even historically you look at a lot of guys that are at that height and but they have to have okay where the special trace that they have okay instincts ball skills quickness athleticism speed he has a lot of traits and a lot of factors and he's got the makeup to make it and be a productive player so when you look at the history because you want to know okay how much of an exception is this player you look at the history there have been a lot of corners that have been successful in the league at or around that height The 4-5-1 do you have a faster time or do you have some comps that Where's that time from? NFL.com Super Scout Who? Time? Where are those? Time or electric No but where are they from though?  Combine Just like I'm just asking do you have a better time? Yes or no? Yeah we have different times than that yeah I just always wonder though When I see stuff on TV I always wonder where those are from I don't know if you're timing on watching TV and timing stuff or what You don't do that So you can go on I saw the Scouts and get it too but You do it off the TV with your stopwatch? No I do that Love it It didn't mark me so Did you ask him if he ran a 4-5 did you ask him that? No I did not You should ask him when he gets to see how he responds 4-5-1 I wrote it down because that seemed like that would be a little slow 4-5-1 No we did have them Our Scouts had faster times And what we do, the numbers we get It's really It's literally our Scouts timing You want? Why? We'll give you the numbers We will We'll get you everything you need man Give Bassity a list And what you do when you negotiate The way you do it is Put on your list So if you put I'm helping you let Put like 10 things on the list Okay And go overboard with some of them And you know you're only going to get 40% of them So you know I'm going to get these four But then you got to put some other stuff on there Right Okay But be You know I'll just ask them for 3-4 things Ask them for 10 And know you're going to get some of them Take the 250 and go home You say you would have been like Like one of those ambulance chasers Oh no I can see lead on billboard Heard on the job Call lead Call lead Corporate Corporate Corporate Corporate Corporate Corporate Corporate Corporate Corporate Corporate Corporate Corporate Corporate Corporate Corporate Corporate Corporate Corporate Corporate Corporate Corporate Corporate Corporate Corporate Corporate Corporate Corporate Corporate Corporate Corporate Corporate Corporate Corporate Corporate Corporate Corporate Corporate Corporate Corporate Corporate Corporate Corporate Corporate Corporate Again, you know how it plays out, play out. Obviously, he played out well with Chris, but so yeah, we're excited. We love what AJ is about, what he brings his team day in and day out. Coach, you've been saying that there's going to be a heightened level of competition. Right. You can come to things like that. If you look at this group of cornerbacks now, you just added Phillips and AJ and Jeff and Mike and all the experienced guys in the back for now and Darren forgetting and Dee, right? And all these guys who have played, it seems like at this particular position, it could be as competitive and as tough decisions as you'll have. Absolutely. Scott. Right. And that's what you want. And you know, it's the business we're in and doesn't mean we don't love all those guys and let them compete and we got to be fair about it and I think they'll bring out the best in our team and in all our players because that's what it is on Sunday. That's the most competitive league in all professional sports. The cool thing is, oh, Scott, is we don't live in this rigid box where you say, okay, you have to have this many players at this position, this many players at this position. And when you come up with that 53 man roster, right? We look at it like we're going to keep the best players, right? So you named all those corners. If those guys are balling and it's going really well, then we end up keeping seven corners and you're not just going to say, okay, if you're the fourth safety or the fifth at this position or whatever, oh, you're guaranteed a spot. No, man. And vice versa, if we only feel like we have three guys that we're really excited about in the building right now, then we're going to have to go get them from somewhere else. But we don't live in this fixed box where we have to, if we get good football players that can help us win and that can help this roster, then we're going to keep those good football players much like as we approach. So we have the seventh round picks and then we got undrafted for agency. So we're not just looking at it like, okay, this is how many players we need in camp at this spot. And so we need to add this many players here. This many. No, we're just saying, hey, let's keep bringing in good football players. If we like them, if we're excited about them, bring them in and we'll figure it out as opposed to worrying about certain numbers at certain positions. Wouldn't you all see a first team All-American there? How much stuff do you put in that? Or is that just, you know, God had a really good season and was recognized by folks that's being one of the top corners in the country? It doesn't. For me personally, you know, it doesn't really, no, the things that do get you excited, any kind of accolades are, hey, was he the personal accolades?  But those kind of accolades are usually just based off statistics. So that doesn't, that wouldn't do it, move the needle for us. What is his, I mean, we see the playmaking and ball skill numbers. What does that look like on the detailed film review that you all do? Yeah. Yeah. Just, you know, Terry talked about his instincts, he led, you know, the guys that can anticipate, to me, he's got great spatial awareness, and playing in different schemes and doing different jobs out there and a guy that, you know, prepares, but it shows up on the tape. I mean, that's, that's the thing, I mean, you can get all these numbers and, and there's, there's obviously very interesting advanced metrics and you look at them and so I was trying to give context last night about, you know, yards of the contact, they could be completely different players. You see that, you get excited about it, but you still got to match the tape, right? And so the guy like Clark, when you look at those numbers too, you know, you're right, because sometimes you got, I've been around a guy that, and good for him, he gets overpaid in free agency because, you know, the ball tipped his way and this is one of those years and nobody, and you're happy for the guy, but, you know, the way the way they got the turnovers, you know, the tip ball at the line of scrimmage and they just happen to be at the right time and thankfully they catch it or whatever, but the guy you can see an instinct that can break on the ball and go back and track the ball, like those are the things that get you fired up. How does his, you know, how does his hips flip and stuff? So, all that kind of good stuff. You said it's an old scout? Yeah, yes.  Oh, yeah. Yeah. Yeah, loose, fluid, the transition, all those things are very good, very good. Yep. Audrey, what you were just referencing, do you believe in ball skills, whatever that term might mean? Some guys just have an act for finding the ball or is that just a throwaway term that we use when they happen to end up? Yeah, it just depends on, you know, context, certainly. Yeah, I mean, like I said, you get excited about the production, Josh, and that's a great question. But yeah, you know, how they went about it. Can they replicate that, I guess? Was this just one of those years, you know, where things was, it's like with sacks, all of a sudden the guy's like here, here, and then one year is here. Well, okay, and then it's back to here. Like, don't take it away from them. It's great production on that part, but how they go about and how they go after the football. Same thing when you're looking at wide outs or any kind of pass catchers, can they track the ball? And some guys, they can obviously do it way better than others. You know, the best example, I think that that could correlate that, that another reference point like a guy like AJ Brown, you know, AJ was a really good baseball player and the way he tracks the ball, and I'm sure you guys saw that play in the Super Bowl, saw him make that place where that's special, what he can do, and not a lot of guys. I mean, they, you know, it's whether that was the way he was, you know, growing up in youth sports and different, different things or certainly you can fine tune some of those, that's what people work and all that stuff, but there's some instinctive stuff that, that some guys are just, they've got it and other guys, they don't, no matter how hard they work at it. Is that vision? I mean, is there some other end to it? Well, I mean, certainly some of this vision, but you know, is there a test that can find what made that athlete great at that compared to the next? I haven't seen one like that. You know, that's why you got to trust all the information from the scouts. You got to take it all in. It's never going to be perfect.   I don't know what is anxiety or something and they just, they can't get over and you certainly try to work through it, but I wish I had a perfect answer for you. I don't, but that's why you got to take it all into context and that's why I'm so fired up and the staff we have upstairs, the way that our scouts or football staff and I talk about it, everybody that's involved in the coaching staff. Certainly it makes Terry and I's job a lot easier.


Item Number- SCP-3487 Object Class- Cater Special Containment Procedures- SCP-3487 is to be kept in softer strains in a standard containment room at Site 179. In the event it must be relocated, it must not be led to its new destination, but physically moved by a member of personnel. SCP-3487 must be watched at all times via security camera to ensure a fast response when it breaches containment, focused on preventing the object from moving. Researchers are permitted to use reality and temporal stabilizers during testing, as otherwise test results are unable to be noted, appearing to have always been the case. Description- SCP-3487 is a member of the species Felis catus, weighing 3.3 kg and measuring 45 cm in length from nose to tail. Despite having been in Foundation custody for all of known Foundation history, standard tissue testing repeatedly confirms it has physical and biological attributes consistent with that of an 8-month-old member of its species and, as such, its true age is unknown. SCP-3487 displays a similar resilience against physical harm to other house cats, though it is capable of accelerated regeneration and regrowth of all parts of its bodily structure given time. Due to the latter, it is hypothesized that SCP-3487 cannot die. SCP-3487's primary anomalous property manifests when it moves. When this occurs, SCP-3487 will in actuality stay completely still, as measured relative to celestial bodies other than Earth, but will rewrite known history such that it has always been at its current location. See SCP-3487 movement events. It is hypothesized that the Foundation was not originally founded with SCP-3487 as one of the first objects in containment, but that it managed to find a way into Site 179 and rewrote history to accommodate this. The anomalous effects of SCP-3487 do not manifest if it is not moving of its own volition, and thus it can be transported without issue. Moving of its own volition includes walking, but also boarding man-made transport such as elevators and cars of its own free will. It is unclear if, after having boarded willingly, SCP-3487's effects will manifest if it becomes unwilling to remain while the transport continues to move. Though it is unclear how its effects manifest when it is not moving, SCP-3487 has breached containment multiple times by changing history such that it was never in restraints. Or by rendering the restraints easily escapable, it may also change minor elements of personnel history to facilitate its attempts at breaching containment. It is unknown if SCP-3487 controls the changes it makes, though testing has shown no difference in intelligence from a regular house cat. These historical changes cause the butterfly effect, though this effect appears to be somewhat muted considering the expected results of some of these changes. Despite this muting, there remains a significant risk of an object-caused CK-class restructuring event, with an immeasurable number assumed to have already taken place pre-containment to establish present-day consensus reality. Addendum – SCP-3487 Movement Events This is a log of several history restructuring events cataloged to date, created using Foundation data analysis and temporal and reality stabilizers. It is not intended to be a complete list, nor is it possible to create one due to the nature of SCP-3487. Event 1 Movement 3 meters north Historical change Meteor impact to Earth approximately 2 million years ago, causing a slight change in its rotational velocity. This results in the object's destination in the present day moving 3 meters south right under it. Event 2 Movement 5 meters down Historical change Seismic event added to Earth approximately 3,000 years ago, resulting in the ground surrounding SCP-3487 moving 5 meters up. Event 3 Movement None observable Historical change Buckle in soft restraints changed to have been fastened incorrectly, enabling SCP-3487 to slip out and breach containment. Event 4 Movement None observable Historical change On-site electrician Jodi Ortega has personal history change to have missed a class in her education, resulting in improper installation of the security camera. Event 5 Movement 10 meters southwest Historical change Earth's formation process changed to slightly facilitate a slightly different orbit around the sun. Ground underneath SCP-3487 moves 10 meters northeast in the present day as a result. Additionally, restraints are changed to have been made defective. Finally, researcher Kim's personal history was edited to not have gotten enough sleep, therefore leaving the door open to SCP-3487's containment and facilitating a containment breach. Event 6 Movement 2 kilometers Direction unclear due to significant changes to Earth Historical change Formation timeline of Earth changed Separation of Pangaea changed This results in changes to Earth's magnetic field and structure, though none detrimental to current human existence. Presumably for SCP-3487 to be able to cross a man-made gap Data expunged Breaches containment in the past Killing ancestors of those responsible for the gap's creation


Okay, are we live? Yeah, okay, we're live. Rishu, I think we can start. Piyush's colleague should be here in a minute. So let's get started. We just wait for some folks to join in. No, I think there's also a live audience on YouTube and there are folks who are waiting over there as well. Yeah. Okay, so this is great. So hey everyone. Welcome once again to another session by Haske. I'm Rishu, you're the moderator for today and to be setting the context on what today's session is all about. So I, as of now I'm a consultant by profession and I work with a lot of different organizations where I end up, you know, looking at the text tags, the transformation aspirations and where is it that they want to go from a technology roadmap point of view. And there's something that actually struck me given that I work with a lot of FIs or financial institutions, which is if you look at the major decision making engine, which is essentially, you know, the business process automation and the business rule engineering pieces of it. What turns out is that a lot of these organizations, given their age, given the runway they've had in the, you know, given the runway had in the industry, that the decision making tooling is still very, very proprietary, very, very enterprise. You usually have, you know, well established players who still come deploy.  And often what is happening is there has been this new generation of companies coming in, in tech as well and FIs as well, where, you know, there is a lot more new tooling coming around. There's a lot more emphasis on exploring what are, if open source technologies can actually, you know, take over and can kind of cause some sort of an incursion into this well-established area where these enterprise players are playing, right? So a lot of these companies that exist today are also contemplating that how can they accelerate, how can they also attract talent, because we said working on open source and enhancing open source is also a great pitch for getting exciting young talent on board, which has the hunger for it, right? So there is, there's a lot of this play going on. And at the same point in time, you know, given the size of businesses that write, given the kind of customer base and support that they have given in some cases, given the criticality of the businesses, these enterprises are also sometimes in a fix of where they should go for it, where they should not go for it, what is the right time, what is the right way to do it, right? And so in today's session, it is essentially about passing some of these challenges, some of these observations and also to, you know, share their experiences while being on this journey. We have Sujan from Razorpay who is joining us. We also have Saurabh and Hanu, right, from Capillary. So we are going to hear a lot from them and I'm going to see as much of a curious cat as most of the folks on this live stream are. So first up, huge welcome to Sujan, Saurabh and Hanu. Thanks a lot guys for making time for this. Thank you for joining the sharing experience. I'm just going to hand it quickly over to you for a quick introduction to Sujan, Saurabh and Hanu if you guys could quickly introduce yourself for the audience. Hi everyone, I'm Sujan. I'm a lead software developer in Razorpay Technologies. They're like in Razorpay. I'm part of the Razorpay capital engineering team. So capital is like a lending arm of Razorpay, where we offer credit to small and medium-sized businesses like maybe for their very short-term needs or for recurring needs. We have corporate cards as a primary offering and also we have cash advances, credit line for short-term needs. So yeah, it's about me. Thanks for the opportunity. Saurabh, over to you. Yeah. Hello everyone, I'm Saurabh Kumar. So I'm working as a director of engineering in capital technologies. And I have been managing three or four teams within Capri right now. One of the key projects where I was involved is around the OTA payments, as in over-the-air payments. And where we use the commander framework, some of those we will discuss going forward in this fall. So welcome, as in happy to have a good discussion and some suggestions from all of you. Great. Thanks, Saurabh. Right. And with that, we quickly move on to our final panelist which for today is Bhanu. Hey, Bhanu. Hi, I'm Bhanu. I'm a software architect in Capri Technologies. So I've been working on scaling applications, real-time applications. But one of the projects that I worked on for a few months is the payments orchestrator service. I mean the OTA that Saurabh mentioned. So in that piece actually evaluated multiple workflow orchestration tools. So in that process we have actually, we moved on to use commander. So I guess I will be discussing a lot on that and hope to learn a lot from you all. Thanks, everyone. And so before we quickly start, here is our customary plan, which is who we are, we essentially rootconf. What rootconf is, it used to run as an annual conference. We started in 2011 as practitioners for what was then DevOps, then became DevSecOps. And then eventually evolved into site reliability engineering. And the idea of starting this was to share approaches that the folks in the industry were following to solve infrastructure development, deployment challenges across the board as a community. Now what has happened is we've recognized how the industry is also changing. And accordingly we have also changed. We have now diverged into a continuous community program where we focus not just on DevSecOps. We've also split into specialized branches such as cloud ops, data security, data ops, and a whole bunch more. And we also have, for those on the cybersecurity side of things who feel like you're talking about Dev and also as a tech part of it, on the security part of it, since last year we have collaborated the privacy mode program. And since then we had a few sessions which are probably India's first and premier conferences on data privacy and engineering and product. And those are some of the things you should definitely check out on the rootconf portal. So that's it primarily for the plug. And with that let's just quickly jump on to the discussion. So what I'll probably start with some questions and to all our audiences please keep the questions coming in on the chat. They are super helpful and the panel can definitely share a lot of their insights onto this. So sorry for having you. So what I have usually seen is that the BPMBRE play has been as stated very enterprise driven where you usually have the heavy weights who have occupied this for quite a while. They have certifications that a lot of people do a lot of people are essentially specialists into these individual tools. And then there are open source solutions that you would have come down which is I've had some experience running coming down a very different non-filter kind of a domain. But then what I also want to understand maybe starting from Susan first and then moving on to you guys is how did you guys stumble? Rishu I think you muted yourself accidentally. We need to use this and then how did you guys come across and said that okay let's go for an open source solution as compared to one of the established big boys. Sorry actually we lost you for the last one minute can you please repeat the last one. I'll just repeat sorry I'll just repeat that. So what I'm saying is that so what I'm very curious to understand is that when you guys were going across it how did you guys come across the one requirement where is it that you would feel the need for a BPM or a BRE solution. And then also when you guys were making a decision of which tooling to go with it what is it that what considerations led you to using something like Commando where to you know the more established players who usually have an FI or you know a big footprint in the industry and under the establishment. When we starting from you Susan and moving on to a certain time it will be very interesting to hear that story. I'll give a bit of context on like the use case why we are like where we are using Commando actually so we are using Commando platform in actually even there just the workflow engine part of it. So in I mentioned like capital right like capital is a blending arm of razor where we are offering like multiple blending related offerings like a card or like a loan kind of a thing like a credit line. So for this we have an application journey so if you are a business and you want to get onboarded on one of these offerings like you'll have to do certain steps. So that journey itself is actually like a multi-stage one like you'll probably like you'll start with like some basic details about your business your like your pan GST and your business vintage and business description related details and probably you'll give your key stakeholder details you'll do a bureau check you'll give like more details on your business about like your previous business income and related stuff and all and then like you'll finish the first stage of the journey like application journey and then it'll actually hand it over back to the back office. So in the back office like we do have like business verifications like we'll do verify like whether whatever you have shared is actually valid or the documents uploaded is valid like your credit verification is done correctly or not those things and then we hand it over to the underwriting team so once everything is good the first part like if the first part of the thing is good then there is credit verification sorry underwriting. So underwriting is actually like a very last step so most most part of that stage or like function is actually happening offline not in our actually capital use case so what we wanted to do to start with at least to bridge this gap so take like most of this underwriting functions to online so the reason for that is that the underwriting process itself is actually like multi-stage right so as a product they didn't have any insights on like what are the time-taking steps or they didn't even have like idea on visibility as as to that like where is the current currently where is application so that itself is not available so it is not being tracked properly probably like it is tracked but like it is tracked in multiple different platforms not in a single platform as well so that was one reason like where we needed some visibility into like what's happening in underwriting functions and also if you get visibility you will actually be able to figure out the pain points and then improve on that pain points improve like optimize those difficult areas and all so that was one reason and also since this is actually a risky underwriting is something like you were risking more so there is some process we wanted to enforce so because this was happening offline entirely offline mostly offline we were not able to do that so bringing in this process like enforcing this process in the workflow was something was not possible if it were done offline so bringing online was the other other reason like which we were actually exploring this so then we could have actually done this with just the current existing setup like where handling the state machine yourself using your own application code and then everything but then again it was actually not just a few handful of steps it was actually like a very complex workflow where like based on certain parameters of the application the path and application can take like can completely change so different levels of approvals could be possible based on the correct limit we are going to offer or like based on the type of business how long the business has been running so that's why like having a proper workflow engine made sense for us so that's when we thought that we should add a workflow engine and this is just a underwriting use case so we also have like ops related use case like where I was talking about like business verifications and all right so this is just before the offer stage like where we actually say come back to a business saying that like this is what credit line we are offering to you with this interest and multiple other parameters but even after this like if they agree to go with the offer or like they negotiate and agree to go with the offer there are like more steps afterwards also like related to assigning a loan agreement providing more KYC details which could be later required by the lender and all so this was just part of the problem so overall including a workflow engine in the current application setup would be really beneficial in the long run also to even automate other parts of the application journey as well so that's why we choose the we planned to actually go with the workflow engine instead of just doing everything access so that was the first part and then like we thought of like exploring different options like we had so there was an internal implementation of like one of the workflow engines also so cadence was actually deployed internally and then on top of it like we had written a DSL as well but like I can go into detail on like why we didn't go with this and why we eventually chosen Kamunda also but otherwise as we explored like multiple other options also like AWS step functions we explored and we explored like cadence directly also and then there were a couple of solutions like internally which were available and Netflix conductors also like we explored like most of these cases at a high level like the reason like why we went with Kamunda was like majorly two reasons one for this right like I mentioned about having visibility into like what is happening was important so with the other solutions if I take an example of cadence it was like well suited for a automated mostly automated workflow or a workflow so if your use cases are like mostly automated like there are scripts you'll have to run under particular stage or like you'll have to do an HTTP call to do certain things and all probably like cadence would have been better and also it is mostly focused towards developers in the sense like you define these workflows as code so as a developer it will be like really great for me because like I'll have like more visibility I'll have more control and all but then again if I have to give this visibility to the product team it will be really difficult like you'll have to always dependent be dependent on the developer so the main value that we have with Kamunda is that it's support for BPM and 2.0 like it was we could just throw away everything and then we could just represent the entire workflow like the application workflow as a BPM diagram and everything will work out of the box so product will always have visibility into like what is currently running what is currently deployed and also they can because they have visibility they can suggest minor changes and probably even make some minor changes as well so that was one major one main point like why we went with Kamunda and the other one is that most of the other solutions like we had some support for async workflow but like mostly they were actually kind of hacks or like not directly supported but especially this Kamunda platform had like really good support for async workflow like having event based gateways or like event based tasks and having like workers to actually run any tasks which could take time and yeah this was and also human related tasks like actually we are not using that but like human based workflows human based workflows can easily be done with the Kamunda platform which they have this task list like solution as well right so which can be easily used to integrate with your internal like probably dashboard and then handle the human based task assignment and then processing as well so that was the other reason like why we went with the Kamunda so what I am hearing between and this is a very great point that you bring up which is around AWS step functions Google flow and the like yeah right that that it is usually the lack of visibility that would happen some point in time and it would be like oh wait what do I do right now that is one the other part what I am also hearing is that you said that oh you guys actually ended up using the Kamunda modeler which as far as I understand is one of the latest products that Kamunda has sorted out compared to the rest of the VPN so did you guys end up integrating with some of these underlying systems using the APIs that Kamunda provides or was it primarily via the modeler and the rational question for our audience also is that in industry there are two very main models that go out one model that goes out is that you usually have you know you go via the modular process modeler that Sujan was talking about it is the drag and drop workflow no code no code and you let the process run with that the other one is that you essentially take to your business logic and you invoke components of your rule engine and components of your decision engine separately using rest APIs and just simply remove the modeler because you know it just then becomes something like developing a backend service and integrating it to the front end there so Sujan could you and at this point in time I think it would be great for solving one as well as needed why take the modeler approach where you know and not the other one where you could just directly integrated with the the APIs yeah actually we are doing both it's kind of like a hybrid approach at least to start with like in the beginning like we deploy a BPMM diagram modeler so still like we don't have like an end to end solution as to like completing the loop where you actually make changes and that gets automatically deployed and then the new changes will take effect but like we are still in like a partially automated approach where we use modeler to define the initial workflow we deploy it and then still again the other communications between like if there are anything we are pushing to workflow or like we're getting we're listening to any changes from the workflow they happen using the go client we have like we use go line so this is again like you mentioned it is actually it's not RESTful but like it is over gRPC protocol so that still happens and then any changes whichever are there are actually suggested to the BPMM diagram and then we have like a release process like which will take in the new changes and obviously I missed one point so Kamunda platform it has like really good support for versioning so we don't have to worry about like previously running applications or instances on the previous version and then we can easily deploy the new versions and then make sure that everything works out for the cost so backward compatibility handling backward compatibility is also not a problem with this platform I hope this answers your question no this is this is very and I hope I'm audible yeah yeah yeah no this is definitely very very helpful this does a lot of light into you know the kind of decision that went into it I think at this point in time that's also it's all here from Saurabh and Hanu on their alliances around this because what would usually happen is that there would be a running business for underwriting and everything else that could be going on and then it comes in which potentially automates it so what was the kind of process and what was the kind of approach you guys took on because you guys would have had to create swim lanes you guys would have had to also you know go ahead and do a lot of automating around that so how was that entire journey what were your experiences when you were doing it yeah definitely so I'll just quickly explain why and first of all thanks for explaining so nicely first so from my side I'll first explain what was the reason why we went with something like Kamunda okay what was the primary reason and what were the advantages it provided us over some of the tools like Netflix Conductor as well as AWS step functions which we basically evaluated we will go over them as well Hanu will take into detail why we went with Kamunda but to start with basically the problem which was in our hand was we were developing a new product all together called OTA which is over the air payment okay so it was more of an orchestration where basically we had a we had a am I audible yeah yeah sorry yeah so what I was saying is that we were trying to develop a new product all together called OTA which was over the air payment okay the use case which we were trying to solve was basically this was for I would say the Asian markets where basically people used to come to the pump and automatically they will basically open their mobile app they will do some pre-payment and automatically the pump will unlock and the customer will do the fueling in and basically after that the customer can go away and automatically the recipient will be sent back to the customer so this was one of the flows when we basically undertook this thing we also knew that basically this is just one of the flow this is just the pre-authorization flow it can also be a post-authorization flow where basically someone is doing this someone is doing the payment post-fueling right the same kind of flow can also be used in order to basically simulate a let's say a coffee maker right so we basically undertook all these different assumptions while designing this product that ultimately this is kind of a workflow that basically people want to set up a certain different steps and they want to call these different steps based on a certain order or a certain sequence okay and each sequence has its own properties which should be very generic as in each sequence can have a STTP call can have a queuing based call or anything which can be very generic so our system should be extremely generic in nature okay so having all these requirements gathered we had a very clear understanding that we wanted to go with a workflow kind of setup because workflow all these things are ultimately a workflow the second reason why we went with a workflow kind of setup is because as I said as capillaries the multi-tenant kind of organization where every organization will have their own complexity every organization wants to do a certain step in a very different way some organization will add another step to whatever is existing right now for a client and every organization will be running every organization can run in a different cluster altogether okay and it can also be the case that as Swijan explained the versioning support as in someone wants to change something to the flow and they want to preview that flow before actually applying it to the production environment right so Kamunda had that basically these versioning support also very nicely built up so you can basically do a preview of the new version before actually making it the primary version or the live version right so all these cases put together basically we went with something we were very clear that we want to go with a workflow kind of setup now the options which we had in our hand it was the cadence we had the Netflix conductor we also had the AWS step function and we also evaluated the we also evaluated Kamunda one of the primary reason we went with Kamunda is basically the space where we were dealing with was payments if something is unsuccessful there should be a rollback step immediately if let's say I'm trying to authorize a pump or something and if that is unsuccessful I should immediately unauthorize or basically revert the amount which I'm trying to deduct or I would have already deducted or basically if I have basically authorized a pump and I'm trying to move to the next step and the next step is unsuccessful I should immediately unlock the pump so that some other user can use it so this complete rollback thing was very nicely built in Kamunda we didn't find this rollback so nicely built in when it came to AWS step function or when it came to let's say a conductor or a cadence as well so this rollback strategy for us was very important second important point why we went with something like as in went with Kamunda was the versioning thing which I already covered as I said that at different time basically people want to do different things all together with the existence setup as in I have completed all these things now do a webhook call on this particular URL so that I'm getting notified of this particular event as well let's say if this kind of huge guess comes now I don't want that this particular huge guess should break any existing flow so you can basically create this function programmatically as in we have exposed an API you can just call that API it will create a workflow with a new version all together for you you know the version ID you just do a call with that version ID and you can check the complete workflow before affecting the currently live workflow so that was the other advantage which we clearly saw with Kamunda and the third which IV file it was very important for us which AWS step function was especially not providing was something immediate deployment if I'm changing something in AWS step function it goes to a lambda deployment it's a half an hour of 15-20 minutes deployment that is something which was not there with Kamunda you can immediately create a workflow and if you are okay with the preview you can basically make that workflow live so some of these things I would say played a part why we went with Kamunda and when you say that that you could create you know newer version of a deployment and you could run it to see the changes I think there is also a dry run capability that can be utilized and sort of you know test out the flow correct so basically Kamunda the way Kamunda works is by default there is a default version so every request will go to a default version but they also have a versioning support if you want to test something it's a certain version you can do that as well so what I meant there is that if I'm creating a new version I know the version idea of that so I can do a preview checkup or a testing on the new version and if this new version is okay then I will make this as the default version got it that's awesome that is awesome and how did you guys and one of the other things I think we are talking about is how did you guys actually manage to implement so for us it was a new project all together yeah so it was not a movement it was a new project all together and where we basically from the onset itself it was kind of clear that it needs a workflow kind of setup and that's how we basically moved in this direction got it got it that that helps so there will be a green field implementation and one that essentially goes around this is amazing Manu would like to hear your take as well Manu you are on mute first when we initially started to evaluate all the workflow related flows the main problem that we had was that our workflows need to be created I mean everything as far as actually programmatic I mean we didn't use the model notation at all everything the all the workflows were created programmatically and we don't even use the UI it is only used for the developers for their own use case but the product team and our customers also don't really have any visibility into that and that is not a use case but the programmatic way of creation and the real time creation of the workflows that was something that that was the initial thing that helped us decide quickly on to invest where to actually you I mean whether to go with Comminda or the Netflix editor or with AWS the major drawback from AWS for instance from my point of view was the amount of time it takes to have the workflow getting created or the workflow getting updated so that is the initial problem for us and also because we have our capital is a very multi tenant service the number of workflows could be so different so many different kinds of workflows and the ability to copy the workflows and I mean the particular workflow from a test flow to a live flow so all these things are much easier because everything was done problematically so we were able to achieve that easily through Comminda whereas we were not able to achieve that so much through AWS step functions and also our request is essentially the whole pipeline in itself is a completely rest based pipeline and we would be doing aesthetic calls and the request and the response from the whole workflow the end of the workflow at least in that step we would want it in that same response I mean we are looking for a synchronous a synchronous response model actually but whereas when we try to have the same with Netflix conductor it is I mean passionately used more for the asynchronous workflows it has support for synchronous but that is what what it is used a lot there is not a lot of community that uses the synchronous workflows in the Netflix conductor so that was one drawback that we felt for the Netflix conductor and then we sort of also explained that we have compensation models that are built in very easily in Comminda so now capillary has like hundred plus of microservices built in so the integration between integration of this particular payment service with all these microservices were very straightforward for us we would be defining the basic structure for each step that let's say if I want to push my if I want to push my data to I mean I want to push my data to loyalty service where we would basically do some incentivization we would have a step defined for that if I want to push that message to when the data to a messaging service we would have a step defined for that the integration become so easy and because we have initially developed each individual step separately and and we have given the ability to combine these steps sequentially in the way they want for each tenant individually and independently and they would all be running in a single application so in that sense that became easy for us to have that money can and see big part onboarded much easier and also the other thing is that the scalability now because we are using we are using the Comminda jar actually directly in our main application I mean in Java application so we were able to scale it horizontally when the state of that Comminda is completely on dv I mean there is no state on the application so we can scale it horizontally that is something that also helped us a lot I mean the scaling is present in IW step functions as well as conduct but it ticked off our boxes and that is one thing that it would be like I mean we would be against it if the scaling was a concern but from the lotus and all that we have done we were able to meet our SLS so even generally when we look for a long running workflows there would be some short-lived part of it where we would want to meet our SLS so that we are still able to achieve with Comminda so that is one one box that we were able to tick off easily and also there is support for long running workflows obviously in Comminda so that also helped us in deciding better and also the ability to integrate with with APM services like Neural Lake or Data Dog all these that is something that we follow as a tradition in all our micro services in capillary so that is there then it could make our lives much easier so that came off because it is an in-house application and we are just using the Comminda jar so it is easy for us to integrate with Neural Lake whereas in IW step functions in some regions in regions like Beijing and all it is not possible whereas capillary services are present in different IWS regions so I mean different countries so that part was not going off properly with IW step functions so that is also one of the regions why we were against IW step functions so overall with all these features coming in together it helped us to choose easily that Comminda is the right thing for us and we were able to meet our SLS in terms of our response time so even though it is a workflow model for each step we would have particular SLS to meet and we were able to take that so all that combined together it was easy for us to decide that you would be going with Comminda that is indeed any other open source candidates that you guys also looked at like I know you talked about Netflix conductor, you also talked about step function but taking stepping back into the domain of Comminda because Comminda in itself is like open source BPMBRE engine the tools of similar nature you guys looked at as well because I think the comparison with conductor and IW step functions is amazing and I think it also highlights why you would need a separate orchestrator as compared like you know we use the BPM but any other tools that you also looked at Comminda these are the three IW step functions Comminda, Netflix conductor these three are the things that we did read about other workflow tools like MuleSoft also but that didn't help a lot because it is a great version most of them just to answer that as in we actually started with some other tools also like Cadence and all and MuleSoft as well but I think those were discarded at the very early state when it came to the workflow setup the kind of I would say the STTP workflow we were looking for and finally the three which was shortlisted as where we wanted to go deeper these three the IW step function Comminda and the Netflix conductor got understood and also sorry go ahead and the reason why that decision was made that is that there is no IW infrastructure need to maintain Comminda it is just a SQL DP that we need so it is that much easier to deploy and get it running understood also wanted to quickly kind of take a quick understanding of this that since you guys use the process modeler right very often so there are going to be two ways in which it works and I think Sojan said that we have a mixture of both approaches which is the modeler as well as the GRPC integration now I would also like to understand how is the UI manager is the UI something sort of what the BP industry called the headness UI where you essentially take the you take the certain inputs and you just pass them on to the decision engine in order to make a decision or is it that there is also you know there's a couple of UI all together because a lot of VPN players end up providing that right they essentially provide you a UI for your organization yeah I think on the platform 8 we also have operate which can be used exactly for the use cases like you are actually seeing here that where you can actually make modifications one is you can see what's happening in the in your workflow engine overall like what all the current training processes where are the processes currently at and making modifications and trying out it works mostly as like a back office you can debug stuff there or like you can if there are issues you can resolve them and then take them forward and that is one and also there is task list also which which can be used for like admin related workflows like where you have some tasks which can be assigned to like a group of people and then they have to work on them and then they have to mark it as done like normal proper task list or like a to-do list sort of so that is also available in the platform 8 which can be used like it has its own UI but yeah both of these are actually available only on the non-community version of it like for which like if you are actually self-hosting them you'll need to get a license for these things we didn't have use case for either of these things we had like our own admin dashboard which could be used to like visualize these things and then work on so we didn't use them we are actually self-hosting the commander platform but like without these options or like products okay the other thing also wanted to understand is that as you said at what do you call we also would also like to understand some of the aspects of you know when you start putting workflows together in a drag and drop module what is a huge sure is to say that introducing new surroundings and doing business rule engine and decision rule engine management right it makes it a lot more trivial and it kind of elevates us a little further from just you know being dependent on the technology so did you guys also experiment by having somebody who would be a non-technical person a business-facing person right and you know just kind of say that let's have an analyst or let's have a product person be exposed to some of these domains or decision-making rules engine and did you guys try that or is it still at a place where everything is just you know our technology backlog request yeah right now it is at that stage only we are pushing for the product teams to understand BPMN concepts and like give the requirements in that format only but still a long way to go like first first is like we try out like as a tech team being like properly comfortable with this and then we'll build solutions around for the product team itself to actually handle this like product or even other functions also like they should be able to manage their own workflows that's the idea like we have but like still far ahead because BPMN is actually like a standard notation like so it is easier for everyone to actually try out like they need not actually do it only on our platform like where this is managed they can just go to draw I or like any open source platform for drawing and then they can get started with it so that is the idea I think that sounds excellent and at this point I'll just quickly take a break I'm just going to probably look if there are any questions in the chat or anything for us looks like we are we are doing this on a Wednesday afternoon when midweek news are hitting really big and probably the first thing on first and foremost the minds of people just finish Wednesday head out and probably grab a beverage of choice so I think what we'll do is we will probably move a little bit ahead if a question comes I'll let the gentleman address it as well so I'm just going to now start moving towards a little bit towards because this is really amazing to see a green field implementation in a new age contact built on open source it's like one of those stories that comes into the play and I think the next question would also be probably a little bit directed more towards Sarabha and Manu which is saying that is this model something that you guys see and I know so then you would essentially I think the success of this model would encourage Razor to adopt one of it but I'm just trying to cast the next fighter so Sarabha and Manu these guys based on this experience you guys kind of feel that you know cases like these or projects like these paved the way for incursion or do you think there is still some distance to go before open source solutions like Kamunda can kind of go head to head with the more specialized solutions idea yeah I can go so in my opinion Kamunda is almost there especially in our use cases as I previously also said like most of the things which Kamunda was doing for us it was not getting done by some of these enterprise companies right and and the future for me also looks great not just in these kind of use cases but also in lot of other use cases where basically we do a lot of state management. We have N number of tools which we sometimes define our own code we basically handle things ourselves that this is how we will do the state management and all and we don't normally go with the workflow kind of solution whether it's a e-commerce kind of a journey where most of the time it's a workflow so some of the places where I feel these Kamunda kind of solutions will be forward as well and compared to as I said compared to enterprise solutions I think it's already there as in some of the capabilities like drag and drop for us also it's too far ahead as in we have also not explored some of these till now and for us also it is still very much tech driven we still have to go some way basically where it is much more friendly for non tech people also to configure these workflow those things are definitely easily supported in the enterprise solutions and all those parts still I would say might be slightly complex but when it comes to the internal the way it works and all of those have been extremely smooth for us that sounds awesome and is there also an element of machine learning and AI that you guys are coming into Kamunda as the same solution because I think for a lot of underwriting stuff like AI has kind of come forth I'll let probably Surya answer that question that are we using it is it in plans if it isn't plans is it something that is fairly easy to plug into it because what happens is other than the established players and you know open source there's a third category that is essentially specialized systems so now you essentially have into a learning system you have into a learning system which go all the way from even let's say suppose you know a product configuration to roll out to underwriting to claims to settlement like everything all together so very well you know decision making engines are just a smaller part of it and with this third kind of you know a challenger like the second type of challenger and a third player coming into the ecosystem right how easy difficult it is to plug something like an AI or an analytics engine into a piece like common because these new challenges they come with an AI engine already integrated not directly AI or ML but to some extent like we already do this so we have like a risk product which actually evaluates based on multiple data points like available inside Razor Pay and the ones which are given by the customer to make some of these decisions already like they are not decisions per se for the time being they are kind of suggestions so these suggestions are actually used while making the underwriting decisions so that is there but yeah AM, ML obviously they can be easily plugged into the Kamunda platform set up itself like the entire workflow engine itself but yeah we aren't there yet like we are still one step before that but that is definitely in the works yeah great great great and Saravan Banu just trying to get a sense of how easy or difficult it is to actually take an AI engine and just plug it into Kamunda is it something that is fairly easy is it something that would mean creation of maybe an adapter or a plugin or how would that go so for us I would say it has been still very much in a plug and play model only we have not explored the AI part of it and there has not been a huge case as of now I would say where we wanted to explore the AI part of it so that is something we have not explored from us yet yeah understood no this is definitely definitely definitely alright at this moment I think we are just going to I don't think we have any questions right now we are going to give back some time to everybody who is on the live stream we usually deserve 10 minutes for the question I think that is one question that is a very generic one from live stream and it has had a very wider implication where it comes around it says that why is it that we don't consider open source as secure in enterprise by and large right and it is about not just about the question is why not by and large why is it that even if we take source as sass so I am going to have you guys take a quick stab at it but I am just trying to answer this question from my own experience which is it is not always a function of security when it comes to open source by and large in a lot of companies that have technology or IT as a certain division of the larger business they are looking to adopt new technology there is also a function of support and timely output a lot of new gen companies essentially go tech first the product is not just powered by tech is tech much of the larger established companies when they are moving and they are essentially here to understand the shift that takes a lot to be done security is definitely a thing which they don't say it is not secure but based on my experience working with fintech there is a higher barrier of entry into the ecosystem because a lot of data a lot of sensitive information is usually at play that is one the second part is that once you have built a system it is also about finding the right skin set for it and as we said in the beginning of this conversation when a lot of a lot of these established players what they do is they actually start rolling out skin set programs and you will see a lot of people for example who are IV and BPM engineers you will see a lot of people who are mega engineers and these guys specialize in operating that complex system which means that once these companies are adopted they know that there is enough skin set on the market and those are just my 2 cents on how this is built up there is not anything against the viability of open source and like I said security we just raise the bar and ensure it is continuously scanned and whatever comes in comes in with a very high bar on security but with that I am going to also move to the experiential part of Sujan and Saurabh and talk about your experiences around the same in my opinion because like open source because of nature of it like you have access to the source code it is better in terms of like security because like you more people will be looking at the code and then more people will be using and then raising these issues but then again the part like you mentioned about like maintenance of it like how fast like someone will react to when there is a security issue if I don't know like may not be great in all the open source software so that needs to be considered so again like it is actually a trade off like one where like you don't even have any visibility like close source or like you go with open source take some of the risks of like there again like while making the choice like it has to be considered I guess Saurabh Manu you want to chime in on this one I think my viewpoint is also exactly same what Sujan told it is a trade off essentially as in whether basically we want to as in when you are working something on a Linux and when you are working with open source languages and all you can go inside a particular function you can understand how internally this particular thing has been implemented rather than basically that particular thing is completely abstracted out of you so that advantage you are getting but that also has a disadvantage that someone can get hold of it can inject something that we have seen multiple cases around the the latest one the log 4 which happened for everyone in the market right so those nuances are there and those trade off we have to take but what I personally feel the advantage of these open source systems when you go inside the code actually read about it understand the nuances of it it is much bigger compared to the shortcomings which we normally see in my there is a lot of learning the open source project the new skillets to conduct it and sometimes during the period when we are in the individual team or the dev team are actually learning those skills so during the there are problems that they will encounter and if there is the time that they can invest then definitely open source or else it always helps that there is support we can get for that that's great alright then I don't think we have any further questions and as stated let's give time back to our audience as well as to the panel so again once again thank you so much Sujan Saravanan this has been very very enlightening and I for sure learnt a lot more than I knew is what I would say in the past one hour or so and also thanks to our audience who have plugged in to the live stream and also the folks who will be viewing this later so with that I think we are pretty much at the end of our live stream and what we are going to essentially now do is the recording for this is going to be published somewhere between 11th and 14th along with our text summary with that again a reminder we have put on we have a really great telegram group and we would encourage you to go and also join that for more offline discussions which are very poor tech it's a great place to have for techies tech entrepreneurs, new tech practitioners with this new experience so with that I think we would like to thank all our panelists once again and thank you so much for joining and sharing my experiences and to get a lot of other folks thinking on how they can actually adopt newer tech and run I think with that at the end of this session so thank you everyone thanks a lot once again thank you thank you guys soon bye