Yeah, there's really good questions right now All right, I think we're live Good evening everyone. Welcome to breeder syndicate. I'm here with our other host not so I don't even like calling you a co-host Because you're really just the other host. Yeah, the other host indeed All right, so today we're gonna cover Cannabis breeding as it was back in the Dutch era mostly in pre Dutch era and a little bit after and why it matters today And why what how we apply that to what we're working with today and to start with that? We're gonna have to go over some very basic breeding Terminology just so you can understand when we move on move forward some of the people who haven't quite gotten there yet Can understand what we're gonna be talking about So yeah, let's take it off dude. All right So we'll kick it off with you know, just to just to go over what Matt said again We're gonna try to take you through like some early days of breeding kind of up to what we've already done so far Which is like the the 80s Holland era and that style and then we'll move forward on to different stuff later But as far as terms go probably one of the more Misused terms is F1, right? We'll just start there Yeah, start with F1 because this has a lot of this is used incorrectly in the cannabis world daily even by myself Like I mean there's not really another term to switch it out with as we use it. So sadly, there's almost no F1s Yeah, and the reason being is that like what an F1 means is when you take two parents that are pretty much true breeding Okay, and you cross them together Right Let's you know that would result in what was called an F1 where? Basically all the dominant genes from both parents will be dominant, right? And so you'll get what's called hybrid vigor because you're not going to get any weird recessives You're not going to get anything like that you basically end up with Whatever the dominant genes are in both sides. That's what pops. Yeah, right? So, you know an example of that for instance would be You know say something like you know for our purposes like skunk one by haze or something like that Like or or skunk one by an inel or something something along those lines part of the reason why they use skunk one so much was simply because It was it was an easy way to F1 something, right? Well, even even technically you want to get more basic if you're doing F1s It's like afghani crossed a tie, right? Sure because it has to be the definition is To crossing two parental lines with Distinctively different genotypes the most important which makes it more rare. So it's one of the most incorrect terms Because a lot of times it's used just to say this is the first time someone's crossed these two things And my kushmints by skittles F1 Yeah, and that and that and that's not right because no those aren't like parental stock from a region of origin you know Type of thing so F2 Would be if you take that f1 seed and you grow up males and females and you cross them together That's when with a line you should see all the dominance all the recessives all the various permutations of what's in that line Can pop up. So instead of getting like all the dominant traits combined You get every trait imaginable combining in every way imaginable And most importantly you'll see stuff that you would not see in the f1 line stuff cannot show up There are things that will never show up in the f1 line that will only show up f2 And f3 yeah to give it to give a really easy example for people like in humans Um brown eyes is a dominant gene and so in order to have blue eyes gray eyes green eyes Hazel eyes both parents have to have that gene and they have to line up to two recessives Right. So if one parent doesn't have the gene it'll never pop If that you know, so yeah, so anyway, so that's that's f1 f2 S1 is is a relatively modern thing In terms of people being able to do it, but that's basically it's a self one Either through hermaphrodism naturally or something human induced from some kind of spray that's used in modern terms You s1 the line it used to be sort of frowned upon But in uh in recent years because we have a lot of cuts That we don't have the line anymore. We just have the specific cut It might be the only way to look through genetics in that line besides You know besides an outcross or a hybrid of it, right? So it's not as good as as doing uh because you get a lot of weirdness when you end breed You could get some undesirable things, but at the very least it gives you an idea to like look through something like chem d or You know trinity or you know something that's old. That's a an elite clone only Right. Yeah And then there's a thing called and also it went in adding on to it was looked down on It was only looked down on in the cannabis sphere in normal agriculture Selfing is the normal way to breed uniform crops. That's how they do it They don't use filial generations. They go through selfing Yes, so that's so it was a cannabis kind of old wives tale as it were And and one of the one of the things that happens with cannabis too is that, you know In modern agriculture when you're developing a seed line You might want a whole bunch of like butter lettuce, for instance that comes out extremely similar And you might want a bunch of seeds of whatever cucumbers or zucchini or what what have you that comes out extremely dependable And so they will s1 that until they get, you know, a very dependable very narrow breeding Uniform uniform Not a lot to look not, you know, that's part of the reason why like, you know, and so ibl Maybe we'll shift it. Yeah, this segues into it because ibl is another like super mis misused terms and it stands essentially for inbred line Yeah And hold on. Hold on. Let me add this in because this is the the point where most people lose it Because it says inbred line. It does not mean that if you line breed that you have an ibl It is a very specific term and it is a basically don't look at it like, okay Well, I cross this f1 made f2s. That's ibl, right? It's line bread. It's inbred line It basically what it means is uniformity in a line and that's it It's not something that can always be achieved at f6 or f8 It only means when you're popping those seeds you have a homogenous line meaning uniform like clones So for us, um, for you know for like large-scale agriculture something like that might be useful For cannabis, it's not that useful for the most part unless you get something amazing because what you see is what you get If you breed with an ibl it'll throw What you see It's very valuable in hemp forms I I know that that's one place where they're liking seeing uniformity in self lines because they just it's it's more vigorous It's faster. They can pop out those seeds and if they come out uniform That's even more that it takes the the cloning out of the you know out of the picture and stuff So in in hemp I can see that being more useful, but in modern cannabis people want to find that that keeper Yeah, they want they want a little bit of variety. So there's new paths If for a breeder for somebody like, you know, um for a breeder or anything like that and uh all that Getting something where like there's nowhere to go within the gene pool itself Because it's an ibl and it already is what it is the traits you see or the traits you get Unless you really want to add those traits to another line specifically There's not a lot of room for places to go Yeah, because it's already been all that variety has been bred out of it Yeah, so that that's another thing with breeding where it's like it a lot of breeding depends on what your goals are Yeah, you know Some people might want consistency some people might want like the same three to six phenos to regularly pop Some people might want to breed an ibl. Some people might want to do an open pollination or an f2 and have the widest possible Gene pool to hunt through depending on what your what your goals are you trying to find like a random elite cutting to hold onto Are you trying to actually breed a line? Like matt was saying where you could like put it in a hemp field and start thousands of seeds and get the same consistent You know size bush type of thing So that's kind of the thing um So uh, we have ix in cross in cross is the last one we have left So in cross is the last one. So this is another weird term because uh in um We call it a bx Yes, um, but in most other breeding they call it a bc A back cross is actually like the technical term that you would use but for for most cannabis people They're mostly familiar with a bx and a bx is simply You take a cut. Um, you know and you use an outside pollen donor Uh to make a male Line of it and then you take the children of that and you back cross it onto the original female So we've talked about like on the previous on the previous podcast. We talked about how um, you know, uh, you know neville used um seattle greg's nl one And uh, you know, we'd use that as a pollen donor and would back cross to make a pure Hashplant to make a pure big bud to make a pure nor uh, hawaiian indica that type of thing Uh, jj from top dog, you know, he took uh An afghani one and use that to cross into Chem d and did that a few times and make double dog and trace dog and so on and so forth So that's basically what a bx is is you find a pollen donor And you cross it to a clone only for the most part and then you back cross you keep back crossing So on and so forth. So those are kind of like the lockdown single traits when it's back crossing and then ix is going to be Similar to a bx but going further down the line and crossing back to a previous generation So like maybe an f6 cross to an f1 of the same line That would be an in cross because you're crossing in between the same line But sure yeah, so that it is essentially still a back cross though So those yeah, those things are and and it's only it's only a bx or a bc If you back cross it to the exact same parent Exactly that's super cutting like if you for instance had like a line of chem d for instance And you and you crossed your children of that to a different chem d parent It wouldn't be a bx. Yeah, it has to go directly back to the original genetic Stock that started the process. Otherwise, it's it's not a bx. So Um, those are some basic terms. I think that covers like most cannabis people deal with and so we we thought about like um, I don't know exactly know how much time we'll spend on each specific topic, but we thought about like it might be interesting to um We thought it might be interesting to talk about how we got here as far as breeding techniques. Yeah I see in the comments, uh, you have to know where we're going. We have to know where we came from I think yeah, exactly. So, um, you know the the easiest way, you know We won't we could spend an enormous amount of time on how cannabis moved around places Um, but you know the basic premise is that for most of the like what we consider to be like the land race regions Right when people were starting to get imports into america. They were coming from mexico Yeah, uh, colombia panamom Jamaica Uh, thailand cambodia louse. Um, you know those type of places Uh, and they were importing seeded weed, right? And so how did those farmers? How did those farmers get to the point where they were growing tons of cannabis and exporting it to our region, right? Well, basically it's at some point in the past. We don't need to spend a super amount of time on this but You know, somewhere humans figured out that thc had cool effects Yeah, they get fucked up You know by by a lot of by a lot of people, you know, um You know humans started interacting with plants and the nature around them They started figuring out which ones were good to eat which ones were good for health Which ones did this which ones did that and so on a certain level there was a point where um People figured out that you know marijuana that you know the wild marijuana strains had some effects Whether it was like hand rubbed charros Uh making hashish by rubbing buds and then getting it on their hands and then rubbing it off and smoking it or consuming it or Various aspects like that people started to sort out that this was a useful plant Right. Yeah, and so like just every other kind of useful plant from corn to watermelons to anything else People started messing with it to get more of what they wanted Yeah, right. And so we what we think is is we think as as you go from wild populations, right that um That uh started that humans started interacting with to planted populations of cannabis by humans Um, what we assume is the traditional method is that people would go out into these fields And they would pick Of females that they like the smell. They like the structure. They liked whatever it was about it Maybe they liked that it had increased thc compared to its neighbors Sure, and they would keep those plants And then therefore next year they would plant a bunch of seeds from their favorite females Yeah, right and so then over time year after year generation after generation Humans started slowly improving their local gene pool And breeding it towards things they wanted Yeah, maybe it was terps back then although they obviously wouldn't have called it that aromas effects Weight, you know finished who knows different farmers. I'm sure I had vastly different things But sure, you know farmers back then seed collecting was part of the the way they grew everything So you picked your favorite plants. They were seeded and you grew that next year and then over time Uh humans started having a massive impact on what kind of you know, what kind of plants were being grown Because they've done this selection over time over time over time and that pretty much I think happened Um virtually everywhere Anywhere that cannabis was endemic. Sure. Yeah, I mean it's it's kind of not well known But just really quickly they think that cannabis sort of started in the highland areas around china, tibetan, plateau Um, you know that kind of region it went down into india it went down into Pakistan and afghanistan And about 2700 years ago We have Verifiable evidence That the skithians who were like central steppy people Were using it in their culture that it was being used in the very northern parts of afghanistan and in Certain parts of the caucas mountains And that also we they found thc burned in temples about 60 miles south of jerusalem about 2700 years ago Highlands to lassi smoking the bomb, but So right, so there's so there's a situation where obviously like we have we don't know how long ago it started, but china and uh, Tibet and the caucas mountains and where israel is right now are obviously pretty far far apart from each other Especially from the way that people got around at the time, which was you know camels horses donkeys, etc Right, so it is so smoking and consuming either hash or cannabis Is at least 3000 years old documented in multiple spots Yeah, probably goes back Significantly farther than that. We just haven't found absolute evidence that it occurred sure, um, and so You know, then you have then you have a scenario in which So that's kind of how it starts starts up in tibet and china area It comes down into pakistan india afghanistan and starts going into oran in the middle east Then it goes down into uh into africa Right. Um in russia it turns into what becomes known as ruderalis and um So so then so then there's uh, you know, the the weird part is the americas Right is how it got to america. Uh, it seems like Um, although this isn't a hundred percent verified But it seems like that most of the stuff that ended up in america Came along with the conquistadors and then later the slave trade Uh, it seems like a bunch of hemp hemp was obviously used for most rope most sales Uh, it was sailors brought it with them Um everywhere because it was like if you got shipwrecked or something You might need to grow a crop of hemp to turn it into sales or rope again So you could get off your island or wherever you were um, so You know, uh hemp was hemp was critical to that era's Trade and so it was kind of brought everywhere. So it seems like Uh to brazil To the caribbean to mexico when they um when they start talking about that kind of thing genetically Most cannabis from those regions ties back to some kind of african Yeah, right now they're a weird thing and uh, there's there's not a lot of evidence to back this up but the strange thing is is when They did genetic work on panamanian and columbian That has to tie back to Um to southeast asia Yeah, okay, which is weird And so I only have like one little tidbit on that and it has nothing to do with cannabis necessarily but obviously at some point, um If that if it's true in the genetics of panama and columbia tie back to more southeast asia region Then somehow it had to get from there to from southeast asia to the western half of south america, right? And so there's essentially two options either it happened once the spanish and others started trading with the east Uh after the conquests Or there's another interesting thing where there's pacific islanders And some others that they've done genetic testing on in southeast asia and some of these islands Where they have discovered pre columbian, um, indian peoples dna Uh in these pacific islanders from about 11 or 1200 ad Oh, wow So we know for a fact because they interbred they had babies with them They implanted some of their dna from pre columbian peoples into pacific islanders And so we know for a fact that hundreds of years three four hundred years perhaps before Uh columbus sailed and discovered and rediscovered The caribbean and americas Um, there was some kind of trade or at least inter relationships between The pacific islanders and the panamanian and columbian peoples And we know if people are fucking they're probably smoking Yeah, and and and since we know that that hemp was Was absolutely was absolutely required for sailing It makes sense that it theoretically could have been required for sailing Back then and they they traded some of these pre columbian indigenous peoples that were sailing out to the pacific islands Um, they traded them some seeds And the seeds would be necessary on both ports if they're going both places And so that's not proof We have guaranteed proof that they were interbreeding in 1100 ad because of the way dna and genetics works So we know that there was trade ongoing We don't know exactly when But it does seem like columbian and panamanian tie-in somehow to the southeast asia portion of the gene pool Not the african where mexican jamaican the island weed The stuff that's on the eastern side of south america that all seems to come from african origins Which makes sense because there wasn't just a mammoth amount of trade both slave and otherwise Coming over from all portions of africa over to the new world Yeah, right And so we know some of it was introduced then it's entirely possible that that some of it was introduced earlier I mean, you know, some of this some of this stuff is not poorly poorly, you know Document is poorly documented for a lack of a better term You know the conquistadors burned most of the writings Of the mayans and the aztecs and the other peoples because they thought they were devil works So most of their knowledge was sort of lost. So who knows maybe they even had it written down And we just don't know so You fast forward again And you have these various people in these various regions That are improving their own genetic stock The people in thailand the people in lao the people in mexico the people in columbia They're growing their stock They are working with what them and other local farmers in their area have access to right And they're breeding it every year and that's where all of these Varietals kind of came from Obviously it was all seeded weed Um, you know, there was uh, you know, and there was two distinct cultures going on too, right? Maybe we should mention this so In the north indian pakistan and afghanistan regions. It was primarily a hashish culture So they viewed the plant as essentially i don't want to say they viewed it as garbage But they viewed it as as a way to get a hold of the trichomes Yeah, uh, whether they did hand rub like i was talking about or whether they did dry sift or whatever method they used to extract it Uh, they thought that the proper use of cannabis was to turn it into hash Yeah, um, you know and so but then you go to lao or cambodia or thailand or mexico or columbia these kind of places They smoked flour So you had some groups breeding for specific Basically hash plants Right and then you had some groups breeding for smokable flower Yeah Right, uh, and those were the kind of those were the kind of selections that people were making back then, right? and then, you know, uh obviously like america's founded on Capitalistic principles, right? And so if there's a demand somewhere and there's a supply somewhere else adam smith says that the invisible hand should come along and get the supply from where it is to where the demand is right So you have all these regions that we've talked about have been probably improving their crops a year to year They're saving their best seed like they do with their food crops. They're slowly improving their genetic lines But there's really not a lot of interaction between them and other groups They're kind of growing what's available in their area Except except for the one thing we we had talked about and I believe it's referenced in rob clerks hashish book except in afghanistan where they were importing they had learned the trade of Of hand rubbing and hash collecting via the route from india So most of the stuff during that time they were importing indian More sativa tight narrow leaf varieties to afghanistan because that's what the indians were using to make their hash And they weren't using their afghanis in their fields yet. They weren't using those to Get the trichomes collect and make the hash they were actually using indian sativas during that time And it wasn't until more modern The past 1950 when they started using and collecting their own varieties So maybe a better way to a more accurate way to state it would just say that like we can't discount that there was some regional trading going on Right between say, you know india, pakistan, afghanistan, they're all connected to one another You can kind of go back and forth. There could be panamanian and columbian going back and forth There could be some caribbean exchanges But in general there wasn't caribbean trading with thailand Yeah, no afghanistan. There wasn't like different regions of the world The regions themselves mixed a bit, you know, it's obviously not written down So it's really hard to determine with any kind of factual basis how it exactly occurred But you have all these over all hundreds of years by the time that like america gets involved you have all these weed cultures That have developed around the world. Some of them are hash cultures. Some of them are smokable flower cultures So obviously they made different decisions on their strains based on You know, whether they wanted to smoke flower or whether they wanted to to create a hash plant sure and you know prohibition was was fully going on in america and You know invisible hand comes in and there's a bunch of people in america that want to smoke pot musicians jazz artists hippies counterculture beatniks various various types of people get introduced to it Most likely mota Probably most people's first experiences with it were probably mexican Yeah, coming into the country There was a lot of you know back and flow over the border With mexican like, you know farm working and stuff like that. They probably brought it with them There's definitely records of of jazz famous jazz people smoking it in the 20s and 30s Smoking that jazz cabbage.  I think With with this way that we've kind of brought ourselves to here is that various entrepreneurs Decided to start sourcing weed from various countries That grew weed and figured out a way to get it into america and sell it for a high dollar to american people And the difference in profit between buying it from a thai farmer To selling it to a guy that lives in venice beach Was extremely high So there was a lot of economic incentive for these people to start figuring out ways to smuggle it into the country And and feed the demand Right. Yes, and so Uh, sadly, uh, one thing that was so we start getting imports, right? We start getting We start getting imports and we start getting things from Panama people start smuggling from panama and columbia people certainly start smuggling from jamaica and other caribbean islands Mexico Hawaii You know asia There's some pretty famous smugglers that we're working in thailand and cambodia and wow In the 60s and they start, you know all the famous stuff you've heard about uh, columbian gold panama red tie sticks Every every um, i'm sure matt can think of some others. There's a bunch of them To making to making lamb's bread Uh, you know Collie from from indy the mexican Um, you know, mexican stuff was generally named by region. You had mijoacan.  Yeah, you had various things and that's kind of like those were the first names That you would get um, you know The very first names of weed was like where it's from And maybe some nickname like maybe the way Maybe they tried maybe they dried columbian gold Into a brownish gold color And then there was panamanian red and it had red hair or there was this and you know, they wrapped They wrapped in thailand they wrapped the loose buds Around sticks to make it like a more things go from like a super leafy hermaphroditic loose flowers And they'd pack them tight to make it into something and you get tie stick and so all the original names They're not really strain names They're like this is where it's from And this is its nickname that we gave to it from where it's from possibly a color or smell or some other attribute. Yeah Yeah, and you know or rime Yeah, right. Maui. Wowie. Yeah, exactly. They guarantee picked it because it rhymed Yep, that was that's the reason right and so You know, um, and so that's when so that's when like the the breeding that everybody is familiar with kind of starts Yeah, right. You've got all this seeded weed coming into America from all these regions I named southeast asia the caribbean uh, mexico america, uh, you know south america that type of thing and is you know, I mean for the younger cats out there You know, I used to sit there with my head down and a tray at an angle and you would break your weed up here Right and then that allowed all the seeds to roll down the the tray and collect at the bottom lip of the tray As you broke up all your herb Right, and then you'd have a bunch of fluffed up herb for a bowl or a bong or rolling a joint or something along those lines, right? Um, and so everybody got free seeds All right free seeds. We weren't really too much We weren't really too much of a hash culture and that's part of the reason why and then also hash is is trichomes separated from the flower and and the such so Everything that was coming into america at first was various kinds of sativas Yes Because the sativas were the buds You know, and if you were getting imported afghan afghani Indica hash, you were getting blocks of hash. Yeah You weren't getting afghani bud like that important. Yeah, it didn't come with free seeds. Yeah. Yeah There's no free seeds. No, there was sometimes the random seed didn't break a hash stamp There's no the random bud.  And some seeds fell out Yeah, and he got uh an original afghan from some region out of that block of seeds Yeah, so it was rare You know, there was some hash being imported into america But like I said, you know, it's uh, it didn't come with free seeds Where um, there was no seedless in any of these other regions So all the sativas that we were importing came with free seed Yes, and that free seed is the start of every famous breeder you ever heard of's journey Yes, it is for the most for the most. Yeah, it really is. Yeah, it is so people start smoking weed Right people start liking the weed And then some people have get the idea I have these seeds I wonder what would happen if I started growing my own weed Right and then there's places. Uh, some of them are pretty famous the emerald triangle trinity county humble county medecino county where I live um, the central coast san francisco Uh, santa cruz area of bakersfield. Yeah of california. Yes make it legendarily You know, basically anywhere where it was mountainous Oat People weren't gonna find it And the climate was cool. I'm not saying people weren't doing it in other parts of the country because of course they were but You know, wherever people could start to get away with it with their with their imports. They start growing it Yeah, and mechas were built and mechas will build and then the only reason why I brought up those regions is because enough people in those regions All decided to start doing it that it started the beginnings of american growing culture Sure, right if you're growing in upstate new york or oklahoma or florida or some shit Um, you're probably trying to keep it pretty small Yeah, you know, there was definitely some stuff with hippies and santa cruz and medecino county and central coast in different areas that They were a little bit more open with each other And so there's a little bit more trading going on and a little bit more of a culture started to develop Where in some of the other more harsh police state regions of the united states That were a lot more populated. It was a lot more secretive and you know circles were even smaller, right? Sure, so You know people start growing seed probably with varying success and They start discovering stuff Right, they start discovering that when you grow Thai and you grow columbian Boy, is it hard to finish in america? Yeah, very You know the stuff wants to go till december january or whether it doesn't go that long um People start having issues With getting you know, because if you could grow weed from the seed then you could get free weed Yeah, and you wouldn't have to be buying it and what does this free weed look like when it hasn't been compressed and bailed and shipped from You know international locations What what would it be like if you got it fresh? So yeah the initial success for people was um, you know people people could get the mexicans to finish Because the mexicans typically were farther away from the equator and they were a little shorter Right and they had significant struggles getting the columbian and the panaman and the and the ties and the different stuff like that to finish Right. Yeah, so this this this is where people start to get the idea of like I got some Thai stick or I got some columbian gold And I got some wahakan Right and what happens if I grow them up and I cross them Yeah, that's that's basically the start of american breeding That's the that's the the honest to god That's the start of how everybody in america started breeding things, right? And i'm not going to say america is unique But it is rare in the sense that america is the plate or one of the places Where for the first time in hundreds of years people started crossing these wildly different gene pools From these different regions together yes Right, um, I think I think the way you put it the other night and I wrote it down because it was it was worded very well Whoever and wherever the weed was becoming imported the most that's where the weed was blended together the first time Right and that's that's well put and so you know, um, and so there's so So yeah, so basically You know, there's uh, you know, there's some pretty famous stuff that started happening then People started getting these different these different things. They started breeding them together They started experimenting with stuff In the san francisco bay area and in santa cruz and stuff like what became known as haze Started which according to sam and others was essentially columbian by columbian You know and uh, but you needed a greenhouse You needed they figured with some of these some of these land races you needed to grow it in a mild climate Which the central coast and uh, the bay area definitely had And you needed you needed some way to protect it from the weather and give it maybe some heat or some whatever and and and finish it Right. Mm-hmm. So they start crossing things Yeah, one of the famous people that started crossing things the guy named rob park Right. Yes Rob has some very famous stuff that he did. He started crossing columbians and mexicans Because mexicans finished quite faster And so he was trying to get the qualities of the two and get something that would finish in california Yeah, right And so They start breeding obviously sam skunkman is breeding Obviously, there's other various people that are popping and doing all kinds of stuff a lot of the The oldest and most legendary names that we know. Yeah Are from this era Sure, they're from this like pioneer Take some tie take some cambodian cross them together cross it with some columbian cross it with some mexican cross it with some this cross some jamaican by this You know trade some seeds with your friend And You know, uh, so that's kind of like the start of like, uh, cannabis growing in america Yes on any kind of scale and So even when I started in the early 90s Um, I still have them some over there. There's I got like three books that I bought Uh, knowledge was extremely limited. There was no internet. There was no forums. There was no forums to confuse you Yeah, and so and so even for me in the 90s think about how difficult it must have been Um for the people in the 70s That had even less knowledge. No, I'm sure right because one of the things I'll hold it up right now one of the things that taught me breeding was this The bible this is the bible, uh rob clark Took his experience with growing a bunch of weed and breeding a bunch of weed and he figured out How marijuana grows how it breeds how it triggers How all the different traits the different traits and he wrote this I mean matt's right. He wrote sort of a bible Yeah, right. He wrote a basic bible. So when I started out, I was able to buy this bible When I got interested in weed and I was able to read this book over and over and over again And it taught me a ton about how to grow cannabis Yeah, I'm sure matt had the same experience Most breeders most breeders that get curious about breeding Um, you've read rob clark's book Yeah, if you're a seed maker and you actually are passionate and want to learn and and make things better You almost everyone eventually runs into rob clark's work and eventually I think with the breeder syndicate thing One of the plans is to do for patreon a course based on uh cannabis evolution in ethno botany Uh, rob clark gave us his permission to use that for a course. So I thought that would be pretty cool to do And so he I mean I don't need to go through all of it but he started talking about the differences and latitude and You know finish times and the differences in the various kinds of cannabis and regions and what to expect from them How to make seed how to make seed mature?  I mean, I don't think there was any cannabis books in the 60s and You know, um, there was Not breeding. I mean in the 70s.  He had some books out Uh mel franc and ed rosenthal Started contributing some stuff. Uh, there was uh, uh, since melotips Um, there was high times Uh, there was various others magazine. There's all kinds. Yeah, there was all kinds of things so people started 70s is where all of a sudden there starts to be like, um Information coming out that people can access and they don't have to like learn from scratch Or what their neighbor knows or what their buddy that got them into it knows Yeah, right and uh, and so and so, you know, rob Rob did things like rob crossed columbian and mexican Right rob and and sam skunk man are friends, you know skunk one is afghan by columbian mexican Yep, you know, they start blending things Um longer things with shorter things they start playing they start looking to see can I get the traits of this mexican with the traits of this columbian Can I get this tie to stop herming and not take seven months? Yeah, I uh, can I this it's a bad structure to the tie different structure all that type of stuff and so You know and then um, so people so people start um Uh crossing these things right and so maybe this is a good time So that that's what's really happening in the I don't know exactly when it started happening in the 60s But it it definitely was happening in the 60s to some degree it accelerated greatly in the 70s One second. I'm just going to chime in. Um, Greg actually said I studied luther burbank and then bought all rob's books Burbank worked with cannabis in california Yeah, so there you go even even somebody like greg who's I consider to be a very early pioneer Oh, yeah doing a lot of stuff. Uh rob's work helped him You know, um, and so that's kind of and that's that's also a theme that I'd like to say You know right now is that and this remains true no matter what episode we're going to chat about Is that every single breeder out there Stands on the shoulders of the people that came before them Whether it's whether it's the seeds and the genetics they have access to whether it's the forums or books Or knowledge from older cats There was a wave of pioneers that really figured it out And then every generation after that every group after that they got to take Their work in genetics and improve it or mess it up You know as the case may be depending on your opinion Right. Yeah, but they also got a bunch of knowledge by the time a lot of you guys on this With that are listening got into it. There was probably forums You could go there was breeding forums I mean you go on the breeding forum of overgrow and there's samskunk man and chimera and people that have a lot of knowledge Start reading that Um, and you know the internet books started putting the knowledge out there in a way for people to really access Which really sped up the time it took, you know You know on a I mean on a previous interview Uh that you know greg's on this when when matt interviewed greg. I mean greg spoke about You know, they got some afghan beans that were extremely limited from uh, steve murphy And they crossed them to themselves and then they basically crossed them with every sativa they knew of Yeah, hawaiians columbians ties, you know lots of mexicans lots of mexicans lots of this lots of that They were just everybody was just playing around with and that's the other part that people need to know right is that Nobody knew what an afghan by mexican would look like Yeah, it hadn't happened Not yet. They knew what columbian by mexican would look like because that hadn't happened either So a lot of these pioneers They're taking you know rob's like I wonder if I took columbian and mexican and crossed it. What does that look like? Yeah, you know and then maybe later on when skunk one is born sam is like, hey, I got access to some afghans Let's cross this afghan into your skunk into your, you know, your columbian mexican Maybe that'll shorten it up even earlier and it'll be done in october And this and I think this is a good segue into talking about how breeding for uh, Just to see what happens Turned into breeding for traits as they learn these traits as they as they saw, you know, this one's purple This one smells like watermelon. This one smells like cereal. They started learning. Well, if we combine these traits, you know Let's let's see if we can get this trait to pop out if we cross this and this and they started Going and actually having a purpose for breeding With cannabis and finding out that there were these traits that they could follow Long flowering short flowering colors smell taste high All of it and it went from seeing what can happen to a real Purpose a real purpose. Yes. And so I think probably the two traits In the beginning that people were after was I like the way this weed tastes and smokes It won't finish where I live Yeah, how do I get it to finish where I live because a lot of this stuff like panamanian Colombian the southeast asian stuff is all very near the equator. It takes a long time America is not particularly near the equator You know, so they had to figure out how do I blend stuff to get the stuff? I like and be able to grow it in my region Yeah, right and obviously there's a big financial incentive in that too Right because you don't have to import it. It doesn't have to come through customs And that's kind of where green bud was born. Yes Right, uh, you know the way that most of these traditional cultures They didn't have air conditioned dry rooms or anything like that a lot of them dried hanging in the woods A lot of them dried in the sun a lot of them dried it and then Keyload it Right and then it begins to ferment And it gets wrapped up in plastic for weeks or months and then shipped for some period of time You know, if you were lucky, maybe you got some green mexican That was only lightly compressed that they figured out some way to get it across the border without Smooshing it into a block that you could cut with a knife Yeah, you can actually like break it up into actual buds instead of it just being like a a flat mass um You know and so that's where you know great Steve murphy was breeding in the 70s Greg and his whole pacific northwest crew Um, the you know most people in california were breeding either outdoor or in greenhouses. Yes Uh, the indoor wave was still and maybe this is a good segue um for a second i printed out this thing and uh, you can't really see it So i'm just going to read it because it's really dark But this is a this is a seed catalog You know from 1981 it's tied into sam and his crew We assume um, but it lists Uh strains in order of of when they matured october november and december And it lists like what so it gives you a snapshot of what people were actually working with right? Yeah, and uh So i'll read it to you in october You had afghani one afghani two afghani two purple skunk one skunk two Yep, that's all they list five things before that finished before halloween Yeah, the faster finishing right then you have november, right? napali Malawi napali afghani malawi napali Early haze by afghani Yeah, and those are done. Hopefully by thanksgiving.  It says all of the above can be grown outside in most years in the sf bay area And that's the october and the november stuff right and then below it it says all below Require a greenhouse to finish in the san francisco bay area And now you've got south indian 123 original haze one to four burning bush napali haze haze napali napali haze south indian early haze south indian haze south indian tai haze south indian south african haze Burning bush by napali burning bush by south haze Uh by south indian haze and then you even have one category matures in january extra late new years haze Yeah, I bet so Maybe when people are listening to that, right? Yeah, and uh, you're uh, you're realizing that.  I've never had Yeah, I don't have afghan. I don't I don't I don't malawi and napali and haze tai napali and this and that and everything else um There's a bunch of um There's a bunch of stuff like that. So that gives you like a snapshot of like these are what the breeders back then We're crossing to each other. Yeah Right, which is super different. Okay. And so, you know, um Maybe we can mention this even though it kind of like it fits in but it kind of doesn't But the reason why we're talking about all this stuff is that basically like every 10 years in my opinion Cannabis reinvents itself Yes, absolutely, and what was common becomes uncommon or rare Yeah, and then you go 20 years from that point and what becomes uncommon or rare Becomes like impossible Yeah, you know Matt and I were recently looking at somebody's uh freezer collection That they had been gifted. It was a big collection. It was super impressive It was really exciting to look through and most of it was from 08 to 2012 Yeah, and I was collecting heavily during that time And so that was matt's kind of era when he was really collecting a ton and stuff and and it's amazing that it's It's only 10 to 13 14 years later And 98 percent of that stuff that's on the list you couldn't buy today if you wanted to Yeah, and and you'd be lucky to find a reproduction if you were lucky you'd be lucky to find a reproduction You know and there's some famous people on there like, you know a bunch of stuff that people found fire og rascal work Um, yeah tons of awesome shit back then too and and nowadays like I I even still look out for like white Ercol and white master and a few things when I see him in lists But they're they're not common and he was selling tons of those packs back then You know he was killing it still probably is so all this stuff that we're talking about right Is that you know, um, what's common in this in the 60s and 70s becomes uncommon common in the 80s almost unheard of in the 90s A unicorn by by today and that just keeps happening right every every 10 or 15 years What you used to be able to get easy access to Become super hard to find right sure, but then every generation those 10 or 15 years. They're building On certain things like I mentioned that list. There's a series of afghanis that made it over to neville and sssc There's this there's hazes. There's scums. There's different things that happened in that In that era that survived Sure, right, but most of the stuff on that list you've never smoked Yeah, I've never smoked You know, I've never smoked burning bush by napoli by south You know what burning bush is I don't I've never seen it. I've heard it was maybe I've heard I've heard it was a pre pre to haze You know it was an early You know, but but you know these names south indians stuff like that You know, they they just didn't they just that but that's what they were growing So all these guys what that shows you is that all these guys All these guys were basically breeding sativas Yeah Right that's the majority of that list was some sativas. There's a couple afghanis Even skunk one was 75 sativa. Yeah, it was a blend of mexican columbian and a little bit of afghan So it was still even heavily influenced, right? And so Sam skunk man became very famous in that era. That's where you know, he he says he started breeding his skunk one in 1975 um, you know, he bred it for eight or 10 years before he brought it to uh, California brought it from california to amsterdam Uh, mel frank was working with an afghan that got named afghani one that he got from another bay area breeder Uh, who had gotten some afghani seeds Um, he got some durban poison that he was working in the 70s They were breeding some other stuff like that rob clark was obviously busy Um in uh, you know, seattle greg's neck of the woods They had somehow come across some afghan and they were also blending in Some, you know all the various sativas that people had then In hawaii, you know people call stuff hawaiian, but there obviously is no hawaiian. Yeah 98 of the species On hawaii are not native Um because it's an island in the middle of nowhere that created by a volcano Yeah, but people started bringing columbian. It's very tropical people started bringing thai and columbian and afghans and mexicans there and blending them And growing them on the islands and then they became known as hawaiian Yep, you know, even though they're out, but there's no hawaiian genetics. There's a blending of sativas Maybe with a touch afghan Right, we're about 55 minutes in so i'm going to do a short intermission for a commercial real quick quick plug for our Everybody if you're if you're enjoying it We have our patreon shop up or we have our merchandise shop up and we have our patreon Throughout the week we discuss a lot of this stuff in discord what we're going to be talking about We go on a lot of topics answer questions there and we have a pretty fucking awesome community for me there So go to our patreon breeder's breeder syndicate if you want to participate and again merch We got hats hoodies shirts. You name it. We got it now. It's all up in the i don't know Maybe someone can put the link in here Morgan if you can put the link in there for everyone to see Um, so we got the merch up. We got the patreon and I think that Oh, go check out Yeah, it's okay. Go check out speak easy. Um, uh, most of us sell seeds on there. Uh, an amazing amazing group to work with for me done work Amazing stuff for me. So yeah, um, I think that's all the commercials we've got There we go. So uh, this has been uh, this has been You know, it kind of like uh, took a while But yeah, it kind of walked people through Sort of like and now we're starting to enter this point where Um, we'll talk we'll talk a little bit more about how the shift happened Uh, and then we'll and then we'll answer some questions Right because we got some good questions this week. So we might as well chat at that So fast forward a bit people are doing all this stuff in the 70s and um, you know in the uh In the late 70s Things were really blowing up people were doing all kinds of stuff together Um in very in these various regions. I was talking about it was really advancing Uh, then carter loses the election Reagan gets uh, Reagan gets involved And the war on drugs gets ramped up And the world goes to fuck From the from where it had been the penalties are to get agreed they start putting more money into it And uh, they start flying They start taking helicopters and they start flying in hawaii They start flying in medecino county. They start flying in the central valley and some of this stuff, right? and so What that does is that all of a sudden all these guys are growing all this weed And they're growing it in the mountain regions and they're growing it in valleys and stuff like that And they're not too concerned because nobody's looking for them And then all of a sudden there's a helicopter flying overhead Sure, and they got a big field that nobody's ever bothered with before and they get in trouble Right. So pressure starts happening, right? So, you know, they start hunting it People start getting in trouble and then This is when so we mentioned before steve murphy's book and stuff like that, but People were on what's called the hippie hashish trail Where people were traveling to napal people were traveling to india people were traveling to the hindu kush mountains They were meeting up with tribal, you know people and stuff like that And so there was some small amount of afghan seeds and indicas that started making its way into america Yeah, mostly only to breeder circles Certainly not to consumers the way every bag of every sack of weed you bought had a bunch of seeds in it for free But they started trickling in smuggling style To trinity humboldt mendicino to the bay area to various other places You know in steve murphy's book you see some broadleaf afghans in 74 Obviously, uh, you know, uh, you know, seattle greg Was working with some of this stuff And so the the big advantage in the beginning to people Was that you start crossing these afghans into some of these sativas And now maybe you're getting stuff that's finishing, you know, the more heavy afghan you select You're finishing in september or october Sure. And one second I just want to make sure everybody's really paying close attention to this card because I found one of the biggest uh myths and cannabis is that afghanis existed in our culture, you know Just as long as sativas and as long as we've been smoking broad or uh narrowleafs You know, people didn't know that afghanis came as a late entry So when you see a lot of these people making claims about 60s afghanis and 50s afghanis It's very easy to discount with history so while Seed of sativas like we said before we're getting imported by the literal ton With every bag of weed you bought you got uh seeds of seeds And the the indica stuff was being brought back by smugglers and what I would imagine would be relatively small amounts Uh, you know in in his interview, uh, you know, greg told you that he got a whopping four afghan seeds Yeah, whopping a whopping four, you know And the biggest problem that you know, you grow in afghanistan and you and you grow in the hindu kush mountains It's obviously colder there and it's extremely dry. So people start growing them in america and they rot Yeah, the sativas were grown in tropical much more humid regions They had a lot of genetic resistance to rot And so a lot of the things that people were trying to figure out is They can grow these afghans and they're like, oh my god. It's an amazing beautiful frosty crazy-looking weed Yeah, and it's not done and you get some weather and all of a sudden it rots on And it has a totally different hive and a lot of people are used to yeah People go from an up energetic kind of zippy high somewhat psychedelic Wow this that Indicas come with much more couch lock much more heaviness much more limitation. So a lot of the early smokers Didn't like indica It clashed so hard with what they were used to is buds And and the effect they weren't super into it But from a grower's perspective since I read all that stuff You know going from november december harvest to september october harvest when you have police pressure becomes extremely important Yeah right um And so, you know, I maybe we should talk very briefly Because it's a pretty simple subject But when I moved to mendo in the late 90s people still mostly grew from seed outside And the traditional way that you grew from seed was that you would grow some seed You would pick your males you would take your males to like a kind of a darker part of your hills somewhere and you would stash them Uh away from your females you would grow your females in some patches, right? And then you'd collect pollen and you'd go take this pollen from all your males And you'd brush it on some of the lower branches of your favorite females from that year Yeah And I believe that's how the vast majority of breeding occurred even when you look at like rob clark's book He talks about like putting like a paper bag a paper bag with a with a tie over specific branches And putting one on the bag You know even talks about like gluing a strip of clear plastic so that it gets some sun on it while it's doing this Yep All that type of stuff and so most most 70s breeding in america was Pollinating the bottoms of stuff you were intending on selling Yeah And then keeping it Yeah, right and then you know with the police pressure and stuff like that That's really where modern modern breeding starts Yeah, okay, so um 70s breeding not exclusively But essentially was the vast majority was seasonally They would pollinate their best females with males. They had kept somewhere else Yeah, right with the advent of indoor lights and the advent of hydroponic stores and people like Uh growing in the pacific northwest like we've talked about multiple times people started to do some of this breeding inside Yeah, they started doing it away from the helicopters Away from away from the lights away from The ability to get caught and it also it also enabled People to do more than one breeding a year Yeah, yeah, I mean back in the day. It's like back in the day. You got like you got one shot Right Yeah, that that's that's what you got you all of a sudden you go indoor and now as you know You can get four or five shots if you want Yeah, you know, right And so that's when that's when you know prohibition Really forced people to start going inside Mm-hmm And going inside Is obviously how 99 of modern breeding occurs Yeah, I would say You know, there's not I mean there are some people that still breed outdoor And I would say most people breed outdoor in modern times because it's much more cheap to make seeds that way I think the ones that take it very seriously and are doing actual selections do it indoors But generally speaking most do it outdoor, you know Maybe I should rephrase it most of the seeds that you guys have access to that you can buy currently We're probably made indoor No, you know, you don't think so. No, not at all. Not at all. It's all done outdoor in greenhouse Yeah, 99 of it 99 percent of it. Yeah Yeah, even today even today most of the seeds that people buy are going to be coming from places Big seed banks from the uk maybe stuff like that So I the way I was looking at it is most of the most of the small and And most of the height breeders that people are actually buying a bunch of packs of these days They're you know, um, they're mostly doing they were mostly doing it in indoor scenes Um, some of them were doing it in greenhouses Um, certainly he's correct in the sense that like if I'm only talking about what most people have access to obviously When it comes to like all the mexican and all the traditional stuff And some of the stuff that's going on in europe at a larger scale Where legality is different like switzerland or spain. They're still probably using greenhouses That's like 95 of the market though For america, I think yeah, oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. No no american american boutique breeding is still small market Um, and even then a lot of these guys are doing it outdoors making the seeds outdoors And I don't know places like compen is crazy crazy places that you can never imagine You can never imagine so small small greenhouses tucked away that door make the most amount of seeds and and that's I think for during the uh Uh Early to late Up to 2008 2009 a lot of the boutique breeders were all doing it indoors, you know indoors Yes, but so basically I guess that was a poorly phrased way to say Sure from the 80s 90s and the first 10 years of the 2000s for about a 30 year period Prohibition had a lot of breeding happening indoors. Exactly a lot of your famous strains that you know of Whether they were from sssc or from neville or from smaller breeders in america All the northern lights work all that type of stuff. The prohibition was heavy The legality was still not spread out very much. And so for three decades The vast majority of of breeding that we're aware of Did did happen inside and now it's opened up again You know in various ways in the last you know 10 or 15 years and it's began to shift It took legalities changing in the u.s. Though really I think that's what changed it when people were able to grow outdoor and not get Popped for it. They realized that the amount of seeds you can make outdoor versus indoors is monumental But the pollen pollen control is totally a different subject. The pollen control is hard Not and no and pollen viability is hard too I mean, I know people that have tried to throw off huge greenhouse runs And their greenhouse is too moist and pollen doesn't like heat light or water And I've seen a bunch of people have a bunch of failure Because they weren't able to control their humidity Uh in their greenhouse and they think oh, I'm gonna make 15 million seeds And they make 80 000 Yeah, which is still a lot, but it's a far cry from 15 million because they lost control of their humidity so You know part of the So this is kind of taking us up to like People are getting busted Bad things are happening and a lot of these american breeders Okay, and this is what segues into what we've done the last few shows a bunch of these american breeders start fleeing Where it's hot and uncomfortable, which is reagan america To where it's more comfortable, which is europe holland Right rob ends ends up in holland going into holland sam Jim all these guys are bringing that's why nevel and all these groups got access to it Was not because that all these guys wanted to share it was because they were seeking a new place to continue doing what they were doing Yeah, it got real plop. It got real problematic In the early in the early to mid 80s late 80s um, I mean, you know To bring up seattle greg again. He you know, he mentioned on on when you interviewed him that by the late 80s A rolling series of busts had pretty much taken out his whole crew Yep, all the work that they had done had been lost Yeah, to them, you know, luckily he shared it with people in holland um, you know, uh, sam skunkman and rob and mel and ed and These different names that shared things with groups. They did so because it was getting uncomfortably hot to do it where they lived Right and they were trying to they were trying to figure out where to do it and so that kind of segues us into What we what we talked about which is kind of where we were at of This is how breeding got And then with sssc and with nevel and with other groups in that whole era um, not only because holland has, you know, um Not the greatest weather, uh, but also for clandestine reasons and simplicity and everything like that Most of the breeding in the 80s and 90s At least by the mid 80s Through the 90s was indoor Yes, you know the famous strains, uh, you know sour diesel was made inside A lot of the famous pops that happened that came about 90s weed was coming from indoor Right. That was where people could get away with it um People were able to grow in the 60s and 70s for a while freely And then the cops found out what they were doing and they started looking for it And it became much more difficult to get away with it And uh, and so then people responded to that police pressure By hiding it. Yep And then we went from sort of like yearly breeding outside and in greenhouses to Much more cracks at the same thing you could breed you could set up different rooms It's probably very unlikely that somebody like nevel or somebody like the super sativa seed club group would have been able to Offer as many strains as they did Oh, yeah, without individual rooms. Yeah the amount, you know matt and I were joking about the amount of pollen contamination That could have been possible back then. Yeah, you know, but certainly if you were trying to do it outside in greenhouse You're limited to one, you know one set of pollen Yeah, otherwise it's just going to be you're just going to have pollen grains flying around and who knows what is happening Playing who's your daddy with seeds like a lot of these guys do now. Yeah, right, you know So indoor gardening also allowed people to uh, you know It allowed people to do multiple different lines You could offer skunk one and urban and nl5 haze and nl5 skunk one and you could have You know, I don't exactly know the size of these people's rooms, but It's probably not that much different than it was today some bedrooms Yeah closets and some garages You know some converted spaces Yeah And that's kind of like that kind of like brings us from like where we were importing, you know, uh indigenous people's weed Uh to like how people first bred in the 70s to how it changed and police pressure kind of led us to like where we're at today Yep, um, you know, that's kind of that's that's kind of the arc And that kind of leads us right into what we talked about at length the last two episodes of how neville was doing all his work yeah they were uh You know, they moved it inside You know, so I don't know. Maybe we can pause since we're how long in now an hour and 10 minutes an hour and 20 Yeah, maybe we can pause and we can start. I don't know. Can you see questions because you're not I can see questions this time Yeah, so maybe we should uh, maybe we should start in order on the votes aspect. Yep uh, all right There I go, uh, what are each of your guys daily driver strains right now? And what do you like about the strains to use them every day?   Maybe a little paranoid Um, you know different types of things to be honest. There's certain things that are quite famous That I find have a boring high You know, so, um chems headbands sour diesels Uh, you know sativas that type of thing Uh, you know, it depends on my mood. Obviously.  That's what I like. What do you like matt?   I like lighter highs So if I have to punch someone I can still I don't like to be disabled, you know, but that's typically what I like and one point that we should make is that uh, you know We have some really good friends where some of my favorite strains they dislike They don't dislike them. They breed with them, but they don't like their high very much And so there is You know, everybody thinks what happens to me is normal Um, but with weed it's not normal.  Yeah. So so it's kind of it is very individual It's it doesn't affect people the same the next question is what in your opinion Was the most prominent strain to come out of holland in the 90s other than kem nl haze and skunk Boy boy Well, I mean I can say I was a big one for me like that one of my one that I was really interested in was purple star and that was a a dutch purple afghani of some sort Um, you know, this is kind of cheating because I kind of think it's like modern skunk But certainly in the 90s, uh, you know sour diesel in america Um became, you know, it's it's a it's possibly a blend of kevin skunk. So maybe that's not the same But it is it is different. It's not either one of those things That's its own thing and it became one of the most popular strains in america during that time frame Um, you know, it's hard because when you say nl haze and skunk There's a lot of things that have at least one of those components in them. Yeah, you know, not to name one It's very hard not to name something that doesn't have Yeah, you know, but but if you're going to name some of that stuff you could probably throw in The white family that came out of holland, you know, I mean in the mid 90s The white widow the great white shark the white russian That whole line it doesn't have any nl hazer skunk that we're aware of You know, it was completely it was different genetics. Uh, it was extremely popular It was all over high times. It was winning cups. Yeah, it was getting blended into all kinds of stuff Um, when I first started growing white widow and white rhino were the ones, you know, like that's what people talking about Yeah, um, you know another thing is uh, this this kind of I think this angers dj, but um, You know dj gave uh dj gave tony from sag martha a bunch of blueberry lines And sag martha started selling blueberry and probably for most people that was their first ability to actually purchase those lines Yeah, um, he didn't you know, if he was giving it to friends or people in his small network It certainly wasn't as prevalent as giving it to sag martha Yeah, and later uh later on in the 90s after he had soured on sag martha. I believe dutch passion uh took over some of his blueberry work and stuff like that and so Whether or not he is appreciative of that or not Certainly sag martha and dutch passion and their breath of sales Put blueberry and those lines on the map They gave people access to them. It gave people the ability to buy them You know, it made them it made him essentially forum famous When cannabis world and overgrow were happening because all of a sudden you could get these like these Cool sounding strains with these pretty colors all that kind of stuff was going on. So Those were those were pretty famous. You'd have to say they certainly caught americans attention Um, and they are also not nl, kem, haze or skunk Yep, but for the most part most famous things have a little kem Hayes skunk or nano and um, you know, he's the build these are the building block strains So it's hard to get away from them. It is all matt Okay, uh, do with me What was hogs breath creating or was hogs breath created using ssse genetic? Yes, uh, the only thing I know for sure Pretty sure is uh, the jimbo used Uh, williams wonder now whether it was williams wonder across a random nl williams wonder across to an afghani williams wonder it Hard to say hard to say um his story did change based on who we told but that was intentional You did not want people recreating it. Um, that cut that cut was kept very tight until uh several years after it's passing And it is now Out there His sister has the hogs breath company and her husband. They're doing an awesome job with it. Uh, awesome awesome clothes I'm stoking all my hogs gear and jim jim was a major influence on me for those that don't know Um, so yeah hogs breath is one of my favorite all-time strains. I believe crd Underscore sd is going to be doing some stuff with the hogs breath family to bring it back again All right Uh, can you guys talk about the 88 g 13 hash plant the indian worked with not bred? Please boat uses it as a male and I believe hazeman or someone else Even though they weren't supposed to be released pure. Yeah, um, the the g 13 hash plant was selected from supposedly bought 1988 by ascentsy, which was not the case. Um and That was by swampy who was an old overgrow member indian was his friend Uh, indian gets his name attached a lot of stuff But what what ends up happening is he asks other breeders to send him free seeds He distributes them without the breeders name and it gets his name about stuff with it again like the 88 g 13 hash plant Um, but it is it is the g 13 hash plant aka mr. Nice That seed bank or was it's dis seed bank distributed 88? Is it 88? So there's a there's a couple things with this throw in uh one is that There is no 88 g 13 hash plant in the seed bank it comes out in 89. Yeah. Um, so, you know, what's a year? anyway, but and From my understanding, uh, it had been sort of bred to f4 before boaty got it and boaty cracked them and Did some he didn't realize that it had been bred to f4 and bottlenecked a bit So he got it and he bred it and he bred it a few times And he realized that all the breeding work that he had done with it was kind of bunk And his best work with it, which is what he crossed everything to and everybody has access to Was actually the initial seed pop He did better with the initial batch of seeds that he got because they'd already been heavily selected for Then him trying to work within the narrow pool post that He thought he was going f you know f1 to f3 maybe and he was really going like f5 to f8 Yeah, and that's a big difference, right? So I think most of what you're getting when you get stuff from boaty is the initial batch of seeds that he had got that Had already been narrowed down And I don't know when they came from they didn't come from 1988 Um, they were sold in 89 and in 90. They were not sold by sensey Um, and I don't think until uh, they needed mr. Nice I believe until they named it mr. Nice and matt and I discovered that that didn't pop up in a sensey catalog until almost 1999 Yeah, that's a long time. So it was available for two years from neville seed bank in 89 and 90 I believe that's probably where they come from It was probably a pack or two that the guy bred with You know, honestly, and so that's not that big of a selection pool Uh, and that's the it's obviously, you know, I mean boaty's had some great success breeding with some of that Uh, it's also probably one of those ones where there's not a bunch of places to go with it Yep, it kind of is what it is The breed's very dominant. Um, it's pretty purple Smaller-budded some are some are large yielding But I I believe the one that the bail that boat uses imparts purple traits the deadly g mill I think he calls it and also uh for those that don't know swampy who originally put out those g 13 hash plant seeds He also did a cross called free Leonard and that was the g 13 hash plant butterscotch wine I believe the butterscotch wine was a female. Yeah um, and that one was phenomenal phenomenal, um Who was it? Was it oran that worked with it? I think uh Yeah, oran worked with it for a little bit and has done some cool shit with it It made his caramel line and a lot of people have since used the caramel line and and you know, yeah That's about all I can do The next question will go over very quickly because I think matt and I will both kind of want to punt on it But we'll see yep Did Barney's farm ever have their own in-house breeders that they've always been a bulk seed reseller? Uh, I don't think matt or I have a super high opinion of Barney's Um, I think they've always kind of been a a seed reseller I think they came in very late to the game when the dutch scene had already been significantly reduced from its golden and even silver era They kind of came in at the at the tail end of all that Uh, I don't know anybody that has actually bred for them Doesn't mean that they didn't have a little bit of their own house stuff doesn't mean you couldn't have found good stuff Uh, but certainly most of the dutch seed banks in the last 10 years have have certainly fallen off from what they were previous to that in terms of what people find from them so Uh, next question Longitivity on seeds and pollen Uh, one is quite easy If you put seeds in the fridge And or the freezer, um, you can extend their life You know buy quite a bit and that's pretty standard just about every breeder. I know that wants longevity on his seeds um, they, uh You know, they put them in the freezer or the fridge Right. Yeah, I'm just trying to read the other questions. No the pollen the pollen. Um, mac can speak to this I'm sure pollen is a lot more delicate than seeds. It has a lot more limited shelf life In robs and robs are as book they talk about You know baking some flour in the in the oven, you know, and then mixing that flour either tend or a hundred to one And then freezing that You know, uh, pollen is a lot if you're Heat light water all kills it Um, it's a lot less viable than a hard seed to keep alive So, uh, you know, um, that's all I'll say about that any any way you want to store pollen. That's not fresh There's various ways to go about it.  It was only available in the original 85 catalog and it being inbred for eight years and the sativa effects of the purple hindu kush type plant with those purple flowers sound similar You know, um Like a lot of 90s stuff that you get uh the lineage and the backstory that you would prefer to come along with it Is not there The only information that I have that I think is factual about the mendo perps is that the guy that I got it from Grew it in the late 70s in covalo, which is a remote valley in mendecino county I don't know anything other about it besides that. I don't really get as covalo purple, isn't there? I mean there, you know, there was it's sort of You know and part of the reason why part of the I should say this too is that um, a lot of land race stuff That we were talking about a lot of it tested between seven and 15 THC and it was really the blending of these various land races and afghans and these hybridizations That really started bumping us up into the higher teens lower 20s mid 20s type of thing And so the mendo perps while it has amazing qualities Um, it has very low THC. It's probably somewhere between Eight and 12 percent if they're not bumping it up Which actually kind of lends it lends to its truth that it could be an original land race brought over But I don't have a region of origin The only thing I've ever smelled in my entire life that smelled like the mendo perps was the Nepalese temple balls that I got from hash smugglers in Amsterdam I thought that it might be nepalese because of that But I have absolutely zero evidence pointing one way or the other other than the fact that it's purple All right, I don't think it's I don't think it's purple skunk simply because matt and I have grown tons of skunks various kinds of skunks It doesn't really have any other skunk characteristics. I think purple is purple skunk. I really genuinely do. I know, uh, Csi probably I think he's uh more akin to something x18 or ptk something like that I think it's purple skunk one or cool, but I do not think mendo perps is purple skunk one Um, okay, so here's some funny ones. What's my favorite color and weed? Uh, you know, uh Don't say green.  Here's the thing I do think that purple is extremely physically attractive to look at I do think that the cookies And that the stuff from dj short and his son jd can be extremely beautiful the lavenders the pinks the blues Um, I think the mendo perps is beautiful Do I think that those kinds of weed? Uh are as potent and as strong as the green weed? No So if you like very light to moderate potency it could be your thing But literally every potent strain that I hold and care for Um is some shade of green Yeah, I I want to see purples. I need that aesthetic. Um, I would love I would love people I would love people to breed an extremely high potent potency purple I haven't seen it I've seen a few the the purple unicorn was the chem d blackberry widow from jojo rizzo It was the first time I got chem d potency in a just stark purple plant. Yeah, I'm sure it could exist I'm just saying as far as most purple things that you're aware of it's not common And they tend to be they tend to be lighter Yeah, this is a good one the the golden age of cannabis. I like that question quite a bit I'm gonna, you know, I'll I'll talk about this one for a minute because this one's kind of dear to my heart And maybe it's just because I was young But I think the 90s was the golden age of cannabis Um, you know, I still think that we could go into another golden age I don't think it's like it's it's unachievable But the reason I think it was the golden age is because it was like the first polyhybrid era Right things were less inbred. Um, you know, there was a lot more f ones and various polyhybrids coming out that were quite potent And the you know, the chems the sour diesels the nl5 hazes like most of our famous like very extremely famous that the cushes They all originate from that era And people are still using a lot of 90s cuts Um in their breed work There's some of the most common cuts to use they're sort of the backbone of our modern industry is 90s cuts And the other thing I think that makes 90s cuts different is that 90s was the last era before the the name game And matt can speak to this extensively But one of the downsides to the name game Is that every time a famous name or a famous craze happens with cannabis So many cool unique things that were easy to sell Before get pushed to the wayside because as soon as something becomes not easy to sell The amount of people that are willing to hold on to it becomes tiny So You know, um, I'll give you guys a perfect example I you know, I live in medecino county when the when the purple craze hit in 040506 And everybody wanted to grow grape ape urkel lavender You know so on and so forth There was all these hill people that had been growing all these killer strains for a long time and easily selling them And then they couldn't sell them and their neighbor was like hey You grow this urkel I'll sell as many of them as you can get every gram Every gram will go give me your urkel And so all these strains start to get dropped And so a lot a lot of the reason why we still breed with 90s work is because that's when the that's before the bottle mecking happened And now if you look at what people are selling now all these boutique breeders Every famous thing gets crossed to every famous thing So sour got crossed to everything kush got crossed to everything cookies got crossed to everything Skittles You name it then they start getting crossed to each other from both sides again Cush mints by this by this you know cherry pie by kush mints by wedding cake by And it's all the same blend of the same 30 cuts unintentional inbreeding Unintentional inbreeding because and that's and I don't mean to call out breeders Because that's what the public wants Yeah, yeah, too um Soma definitely all in Soma definitely had some worthwhile offerings His lavender stuff was worthwhile reclining Buddha His reclining blue Buddha he got he got some g13 by haze a from neville that he used as a male and some of his sativa lines And a lot of that came out to produce a lot of the cbd lines later on that g13 haze male So, uh, you know when I used to go to amsterdam You could buy his his bud from the damkring which was one of the nicer coffee shops in amsterdam He grew good weed. Um some of his weed was quite popular. It was a little different That's because he caked it first I try to be nice to people but he was he was a little notorious for potentially running his Tumblr for two or three minutes before he put it in the bag to sell to the things so he could collect the keyf That's for real Uh, who is a legitimate source for nl one nl seeds The problem when I mentioned earlier on the podcast which is like every five or ten years weed reinvents itself You can go look at almost all of these catalogs from the 90s And it is almost impossible to find the vast majority of these lines in seed form Unhybridized pure Skunk, you know, I mean it just is it's it sucks to say it but Um every ten years stuff becomes rare. That's the 90s now. That's you know, 25 years ago plus Um, most of the stuff that was available in the 90s is no longer available today You can't get it. Um, it exists in various hybrids. I have I have a tendency to think that bubble kush is has heavy nl one influence Um, you know, so I think some of this stuff exists in different names Um, but that's the sad part if you don't buy it and store it, uh, you might want it later on and you can't get it Yep History of the 1979 christmas tree. I'm gonna skip that one. Maybe I don't know it. Maybe if csi comes on at some point um Uh aspiring breeders Um I'll skip that one too. Not because not because it's a bad question, but it's kind of complicated Yeah, uh, I haven't heard of any bud called ufo in florida no, um I I don't know anything I don't know anything about freeze drying cannabis. I know there's companies out there You know, uh, there's there's companies that are that are claiming that freeze drying is amazing I have specific methods of drying and it certainly doesn't involve freeze drying Uh, here's a good one. When and who started making feminine. I see dutch passion off Gives themselves credit for it, but it was actually a man named mohan ram and I can't remember something set s e t t That were first doing the the scientific experiment experiments on plant reversal using cobalt colloidal sgs and several other methods Um Okay, so here's something that's interesting um I uh, we'll skip a couple of these not because they're not nice questions, but I don't know anything about the new york recreational Rules or anything like that. I don't know anything about the new uh, uh attorney general for our state yet You know, uh Central american cannabis, what's the importance of it? I mean, it's very important. Um, mexican is is central america Uh, and mexican has been bred into all kinds of stuff Um that we use the other central american countries not so much Um, it does exist, uh, but it certainly didn't have the impact in terms of breeders working with it There's certainly honduran and el salvadorian and you know that kind of thing panama panama is also is also technically central Um, is also technically central america. So The two famous ones from central america that have a lot of influence and have been bred into a bunch are mexican and panamanian Yeah, um Let's see cubing cubing is sort of bxing In a way, it's kind of a bullshit concept but Yeah, cubing is is great if you have a true f1 And you want to isolate a single One or two traits that that that's effective and then you cube then you then you cross forward. That's that's generally how it works Um, however, I always give this example every time People tend to think of c99 when they hear cubing because it was back crossed three or four times Um, I can't remember what the claim was from soul, but it was all bullshit anyways But it in a sense is in a sense you don't want to take a line that has Fucking a thousand finos and try to cube it. You're not going to get anywhere in four steps back To isolate all the traits like that now a lot of people confuse that cubing Isolate a few traits crossing forward isolate multiple traits That's that's really the the best way I can describe it Um, that kind of ends most of the questions. I think for this week There's a few we didn't get to Urkel is potent. No I don't think urkel is super potent Urkel lips me this shit, but other people might think so. I definitely think it's one of them I think it's one of the more potent purples But I would not put it up against the more I would not even remotely. It wouldn't be in my top 10 or even 20 Uh, most potent strains that I've tried And see for me, it's one of the top 10 that will instantly give me paranoia Anytime I go, I mean, you know, the land race See it's just the way it goes with my brain. Yeah, there's a guy There's a there's a gentleman asking about do you think land race seeds are still good at the source? Um, you know, I don't know anything about those guys, but I certainly Support people going around in afghanistan and pakistan Is he talking about a specific company or is he talking about I think there's a company called land race seeds That that that bring stuff over from afghanistan and pakistan Um, it's not that easy for white people to go there and elect things right now I mean we went we went to war with them for a couple decades And so it's a little sketchy with the taliban and stuff and so the fact that you have people that are going to collect And send seeds. I don't know what'll come of it, but it's definitely an access point um, and we'll go from there, uh you know and uh The difference in early columbian haze I think the difference in early columbian haze and why it was better was it was just raw crosses and less inbred I think that there was a lot of mistakes made in the 70s on accident as people learned They didn't use large enough population sizes. I think it's been documented That a lot of the best phenos that the haze guys liked started disappearing in the mid to late 70s Because they made some some poor choices with selections and they weren't sure what they were doing Um, you know, the south indian stuff has kind of been debunked now. Sam is saying that it was always colo by colo Uh, which is columbian by columbian. He's saying that the this four-way blend is a bunch of bunk Uh, and it's not true So, uh, I can't I can't speak to that Um, so I don't know, you know, I mean here we are That's basically the end of the questions. There's You know, there's a guy that said that mexico is north america Uh, I'm aware that uh that uh that they don't consider central america a continent But since the question was asked about what came from central america that was beneficial You know if people are talking about central america, it's pretty much panamata mexico Um, I realize it's all either north or south america as the way that uh geography would work I was just trying to answer the question The durban stuff we're going to ignore Simply because we have some stuff coming up that I think will shed a lot more light on the durban thing next week And so I don't want to chat on that two weeks two weeks something like something Relatively close. There'll be some really good new information. We can I think we could talk about it now since it's it Most of it's in the can. Um, is that okay? You want to talk about it real quick? Just plug it Yeah, we could we could plug it really quick. So, um, You know, we uh, we we were blessed and we have been able to interview the the founder of super sativa seed club and um as part of our like 80s Breeding program neville's obviously passed so we weren't able to interview him But you know neville and super sativa seed club were the two largest ones And we have a quite long interview coming that we're going to be giving some context to where we ask him a bunch of questions about Some very famous trains what it was like back then Um, a lot of cool stuff a lot of stuff that surprised even matt and myself Uh new information. He was super engaging and cool Uh, I'm really excited about it. We got to edit it a little bit in various ways just for uh, you know, but Um, you know, there's a lot of miss busted. There's a lot of there's a lot of stuff that's going to come out That's super neat. There's a lot of stuff that's going to come out that uh, you know Might make it that that might make people sad or flip some stories that have been kind of accepted on their head um, you know, I think uh The durban thing is interesting You know, um, you know, and and so we'll we'll sort of save that that for that, but uh The durban story is a little wider than we once thought Let's put it that way. And so we do have that interview coming. It should be great. He was super cool to chat with us Uh, he'll really flesh out what life was like back then and what breeding was like and he was one of the two biggest Seed banks in the world in the 80s. So we're really excited to be able to bring that stuff to you guys in the near future You know and uh, you know, so I don't know that kind of like that kind of takes us to uh That kind of takes us to sort of the end of like our arc here We answered a bunch of questions. I don't know we're we have uh, again If you want to want to be a part of this you want to be a part of Some of the research we're doing if you want to see a lot of them Like I I a lot of people know I collect a lot of old stuff, you know, like old cannabis memorabilia Um, I post a lot of the shots from those books in there like as I come across them cool Shit that that adds to the history of cannabis um, we have A a depository we're working on with a lot of old catalogs a lot of old magazines a lot of old books that are inaccessible to most people um We also have the merch up again. Uh, you can click buy syndicate merch, um, right under one of our heads And uh, it should take you there and you can buy a hat shirt anything that helps support us This shit costs money to do and we're actually like I just bought a new mic that I couldn't use this time to A few other things so it does cost money the more you support the more we can do and the more we're appreciative And we can do more giveaways and cool. Shit. So yeah, just throw some one basic plug is that uh, you know If you guys can't figure out how to join you can always send it Dm to matter myself on ig or breeder syndicate or breeder syndicate will share the link That'll take you right to where you need to be You know, we have our own like we have our own chat in there where you can ask us questions all the time And we we chop it up with people on a much more regular basis Our point to all this is to get information out there and talk about the stuff that interests us So, um, yeah, if you can't find it for some reason Give matt or myself a shout and we'll send you a link and point you in the right direction And I hope everybody enjoyed listening to a longer Um, a longer thing and just hit us up and we'll see you guys there Um, as someone said not so except my follower. I have three years bad luck D a dm me on on ig. I have I have like over a thousand Uh, I have over a thousand people waiting. It's not intentional Um, but if you hit me up personally and I can chat with you for a second I'll accept you and we'll go from there Um, there's a link at the bottom that uh breeder syndicate just put up There's the thing to pledge at if you can't Uh, if you want to send us a link we'll send you a link too And um, we're going to be doing this all the time. So, uh, we're going to have some shorts coming up We're going to have some cool interviews with some old schoolers.   So thank you guys for showing up. Thank you very much for showing up We really appreciate it. We all hope you have a great weekend. Uh, enjoy everyone.  Oh my gosh Well on that note everybody And uh, we're out of here Am I still live just me?  I guess I gotta figure out how to undo this. Bye