We can start and everybody's going to who's going to be updating and all the rest of it We'll do so as we go through introductions. I will just do as usual go through my Hollywood Squares set up here and Call on people and if you would just introduce yourself That would be great. The only other thing I want to say is As I almost always do I want to switch around a couple things in the agenda I want to move from the introductions to the approval of the minutes And then I want to go to the announcements because they're going to be kind of big tonight and Then we'll go into the short presentations on the work of the subcommittees. Okay, so Aaron you first Okay. Hi everybody As I mentioned at the tip top of this meeting unlike what my little square says I am not the Vermont attorney general I am I simply work there. I'm Aaron Jacobson and I'm the co-director of our office's Community Justice Division and I do have a cold. So if you see my camera off It's just because I'm feeling self-conscious about blowing my nose a hundred times and I'm really happy to see you all here I'm really glad we're reconvening Happy New Year to everybody Okay, um Alexandra Hello, everyone. My name is Alexandra Bailey Please call me Alex if I hear Alexandra, I hear my grandmother being mad at me. Sorry I I Am the senior campaign strategist at the sentencing project in Washington, DC, and I'm very thrilled to be here to present today great Grant Hi, everybody. I'm Grant Taylor. I'm here as a minute-taker for the panel Which by the way keeps us all in line just so you all know he's being very modest Dr. Reese Hi, everyone. My name is for Shawnee. I'm really excited to be here tonight to be here noise in the background I do apologize. I just came straight from a state house in Rhode Island So the work has begun up here in New England. I work with Alex actually at the sentencing project I'm her community organizer boots on the ground for the New England region Thank you for having me. Thank you Um Doctor or perhaps mr. Singleton Definitely, mr. And actually you don't even say mr. David is my hey I am with the Ohio Justice and Policy Center. I've been in touch with Rebecca Turner of the defender generals office about Second look work, but I'm really here to support and listen to what Alex is going to be presenting about later today because we're doing similar Work in Ohio and I'm a huge fan of the sentencing project and huge fan of the defender generals office So I'm delighted to be here and thanks for letting me listen in Great. Thank you. Elizabeth. Good to see you Hey, I'm good to see you too. I'm Elizabeth Morris. I am the juvenile justice coordinator in our Allison services unit in The family services division of ECM Great. Thank you. Jeff. Who's not really in Wales Yes, Jeff Jones, I guess plank holder in our depth and former state police and Member of the ACLU which may some people may be Great, thank you saying good evening Good evening. Good evening. Happy new year. Yeah, thank you. I'm seeing run I'm the evaluation and program analyst at Shelburne farms I'm a community member on the panel Great. Thank you Captain Kessler. Hi, I'm captain Barbara Kessler with the Vermont State Police I am co-director of the Farron and partial policing unit with along with dr. Nazard and Longo who is my co-director Jessica Brown Hello, good evening. Happy new year. My name is Jessica Brown. I use she her pronouns I am a community member appointee to the RDAP and I used to be a public defender most recently with the Vermont Defender General's office, but for the past a year and a half. I've been teaching criminal law related topics Working on justice reform and restorative justice at Vermont law and graduate school. Nice to see everyone. Great Tyler Good evening, everyone and happy new year. My name is Tyler Allen. I'm the adolescent services director over at Department for Children and Families. I am the commissioner designated appointee to DCF Pleasure to be here Thank you Representative LaLonde Hello, Martin LaLonde, and I'm a representative from South Burlington and Just started a new gig as the chair of the host judiciary committee. Nice to be here. Great. Thank you Wichie Hi, everyone. Name is Wichie. I feel like Wichie, but with a W pronounced E and kids. I'm also a community representative appointed by Susana Deish from the from the racial justice department in words I as a day job on my health equity and data systems consultant great and speaking of a director Davis Hi, good evening Susana Davis racial equity director I am off camera for the moment because I am In transit to a place where then you will eventually see Great. Thank you I'm Isaac from the Vermont Racial Justice Alliance. I'm believing Hello, Kings and Queen says they could give my title away How about our director of community engagement and support with the Vermont Racial Justice Alliance and uh, Just happy to be here Great. Thank you Rebecca Hi, everyone. Rebecca Turner from Defender General's office. Can you hear me? Yes Oh, excellent. I'm having tech problems this morning. I mean this afternoon All right times Panel member from the office in Defender General Okay And I think we're on you Tim Tim leaders Newmont in the department of state's attorneys and sheriffs and the legislative and assistant appellate attorney in the department Hello, everyone Hi um Washington 2020 Hashtag hashtag That's what I have in your square, ma'am Oh Hi, I'm Mary Morrissey. I'm judge Mary Morrissey. Oh god. Okay. I don't know why it says that I just I was having trouble joining the link Um, and I just barely I was on teams not realizing I was on teams and had to switch over I couldn't figure out why I couldn't see any of the people you were calling out But anyway, sorry my name is Mary Morrissey. I'm a superior court judge. I don't know why it says I'm washington 20 pound pound But I currently preside in franklin county and I am I guess the judiciary is representative honest to me great Sheila, hello Hello, eights on happy new year everyone. My name is Sheila linton I use she her pronouns and I am an appointee by the attorney general panel member And my day job is executive director for the root social justice center, which is a nonprofit centering blackness Thank you Hailey summer Hi, everyone. My name is Hailey I'm just a community member who lives in burlington and I've been working with the sentencing project for a little over a year now So I'm just here to support and learn more about second look Great. Thank you Jay Jay green Thank you very much. Jay green policy and research analyst for the office of spiritual equity. I'm not an official panel member panel member, but I am Uh, I for executive director susana davis and all of our report writing and other research So, um, I'm here in case we discuss any research reports Great. Thank you And I use they them pronouns. Thank you for having me Got it chief don stevens Hello, everybody. I'm don stevens. I'm chief and then all he can have an ackee tribe was appointed to the panel by tj donovan And uh, yeah, welcome. Happy new year and to you And last but not least reverend mark use from the vermont racial justice alliance Happy new year everyone. It's good to be here.  I really appreciate y'all standing in there I'm reverend mark hughes. I'm the executive director of vermont racial justice alliance justice for all Uh, we've also just spun out the richor kim center. Hi, witchy. Uh, and um, Yeah, just doing the work. We we created this panel Back in 2017 under act 54 Uh, and there's an accompanying a companion that goes with it. It's called the attorney generals and the human rights commission's task force report on I think disparities across all systems of state government which Actually led us into the work to create the office of racial equity or at that time It was called the racial equity executive director, which was act nine special session the following year So i'm really happy to be here. We're going to stop being every now and then we're going to keep an eye on what's going on Oh, i'm also um infamous for the minority report Uh, the first report that was done by this particular committee, which we won't talk about now, but uh, see me if you want to hear more Um a time. I appreciate you. It's good to be here and i'm excited. Uh, martin net year and i had the chair of judiciary I'll talk to you. I'll be In state house tomorrow. I think great Thank you all. Okay. Here we are. Let us get going. Um, I'd like to go To the as I said earlier to the approval of the minutes They were sent out as usual with the agenda Um, these were from our meeting in october Uh, so I need to hear now about, uh corrections addenda such Um, so that we can get that tidied up and posted Does anyone have any of those? I will um Make a motion to move the um to approve to move and approve the october minutes of the rdap Excellent Anyone seconding that? I would second that Good let us vote all in favor I think i'll signify Eighton, I think we should just after that I think we should just have discussion because I know that jeff might have been raising his hand and that at that point there might be I didn't see it. Thank you. No worries. Thank you Thank you very much jeff. Did you have something? Uh small minor point, but I think sometimes really important, which is we should call for extension abstentions as well Um, sometimes yeah, it's important politically for people We usually do it's is there's something okay Sometimes we miss that one and I think it's important for some people politically on this panel or viewing this panel. That's all Yeah, small point small point um Anybody else I jeff I think that's a great clarification and I think that in terms of sort of like the Legalese of it as well. I think that maybe for the minutes we need to note who made what um vote So those who are voting panel members So if somebody is abstaining or voting No, then I think that has to be reflected by name as well Um, correct me if i'm wrong. So I just for the person who's taking minutes um That might be useful too if we it is clear what who are voting panel members and Who is making the decision votes and how that's going from approved to abstaining to No Okay So, you know roberts does not always require names A member can ask for that to happen and then it can happen But it is not just sort of assumed um, that's just just so you know how that goes um But if you would like to record names and you want to do that Going forward we can do that I say start in the new year off. I know that it's a little bit of extra work But I think that whatever decisions we make as a panel it should be reflective of who's what positions People are holding within those decisions Okay Shall we vote then All in favor of approving the minutes as submitted Please signify approval Hi Hi Hi Grant do you have that? Grant I do And not not um, I can I can sift through here. I gotta scroll side to side to see all the different screens Okay And it and it has and you have to have your camera on if I want to be able to see it so Is it at all helpful if we Write in the chat that we vote I or is that not helpful? That might be the best way to do it. Um To do the vote in the chat it can everybody see the chat now that we're on zoom And the public can see the chat as well I can see the chat. I I wasn't able to before I cannot see the chat, but I'm happy to this is tim happy to signify if I if I have some some reason to note something Okay Okay I just put my yeah, there we are Okay, can we keep going grant because that's in there Yeah, I can get it from I'll get the information from the chat Okay All opposed. Please signify so I know it's slow, but I'm leaving time for people to Deal with the technology here And okay, and finally all abstentions. Please signify in the chat okay The minute it if it has passed in other words the minutes are accepted as submitted Thank you That is done Jeff was that okay? Okay, good The announcement I wanted to start by first off saying That we have Well, this sounds so dramatic. I should really figure out how to say this better Monica Weber is no longer on our dap. She has moved To a new position. She's the executive director of the crime research group So I imagine we will still be seeing her now and then And I have not yet heard of anyone who will be her replacement that is coming Erin have you heard anything of this? Okay, you neither. All right So don't know where that's from yet where it's going yet, but there will obviously Be someone else from corrections And certainly by the next meeting. I think without a doubt um That is that's the big announcement the other one is I wanted to give space to both Elizabeth and to witchy Who we're talking about what really feels to me Like the next move that we need to make around this time Given that we have a report due in December of this year um They were discussing if you haven't been able to look at your email The idea of putting together a um spreadsheet With various initiatives and so on And I don't want to hog the room right now because they were talking about it And I'd like to just sort of turn it over to either of you To speak further about this Go ahead witchy. It was your idea. I don't want to Yeah, I'm happy to say my thoughts about it, but Well, I'm just I guess the what prompted this is like as I was looking at this document I was like, oh, well, this is all nice that we did all these things But does did something come of it? All right, so it's like Um, so I just thought it would be good for us to sort of revisit What have been our achievements and in addition to that Where are they right now right where they implemented into policy where they did someone pick it up somewhere else? Um, there's a work that we still need to do with it. So just really thinking about Um, sort of creating a feedback mechanism for ourselves in order to be able to Really think about what work has been done Um, what has been its long-term effects? And um, so do we need to follow up and also if there were good long-term impacts What how did we have those long-term impacts and how can we use that those strategies tactics? or Little points in it to be able to give ourselves more success So that thank you. Thank you. So Elizabeth, there is a spreadsheet. Don't you have didn't I see one from you didn't or i'm hallucinating If if you did it wasn't for me Or or perhaps it's from somebody else out there floating that I but i'm just not aware of I I think the one thing I would add to your comments, which is that document Does include things that are deaf as dumb, but it also includes reports and recommendations that other entities have Started or in the realm of racial justice. So I know in particular if we're talking about the juvenile justice aspects that are in that document Which i'm hoping we can chat a little bit about later as well Is um, there's a lot that's going on across the state of Vermont regarding So many different aspects that our depth theoretically could be involved in and if we create a spreadsheet I see it as kind of two different columns almost one would be like Our depth specific work products and then the other ones would be Other entities work products that we want to keep track of that we want to be involved in and know about And give our thoughts and opinions on especially if they're things that end up going to the legislature Or policy changes within state agencies etc. So that's how I was kind of envisioning it Just knowing that both of those pieces of work Are represented in that document, which I think Rebecca was the one who originally started and put together That's right. All right, so the spreadsheet I've been on medical leave folks. Where is it right now? Does anyone know? Hi, Rebecca Jess Brown and I We're having trouble with your audio. Oh shoot. I think like talk at that microphone When you turned your head to your right, Rebecca, it got much clearer. All right, that's clear I have a mess of a system today. I'm gonna leave this all and just calling on myself. I'm sorry But I think Aaron can fill in. I think Aaron has been Keeping track of this So while Rebecca's calling in the as far as I understand it I don't recall a spreadsheet, but there was kind of a working list of um our DAP initiatives and I agree with Rebecca my recollection was that that was something that Susanna and Jessica and Rebecca worked on together And if that's the document everyone is thinking of then it is in our our DAP SharePoint And all our DAP members should have access to it and The other understanding I had when that document was created was that it was envisioned to be a working document and so That we could all add to it. We could all modify it. It could serve kind of as a grounding point for where we've been and where we want to go Now I also know that that there's been a lot of monkeying with SharePoint So people should be able to access it now If not Let me know and we will do something That's all I can say I mean honestly my office has done pretty much everything it can Right reached a point where there was just nothing nothing more that than That we could do because we have to Use certain tech platforms that also have security checks and so I can't For example, administer a google docs and like share it on my on the agio website But SharePoint is an agio hosted site and you should all have access to it and Anne Walker can help you figure out the logistics if if it's just a matter of logistics not working for you So let us know If that works or not Um, and we will go from there. Does that sound reasonable? I'm putting Anne Walker's email address In the chat right now Just in case you're having a technical issue And need to be in touch with someone else About I mean she's the one to talk to about the technical stuff. I'm obviously like not So, um But it would be good for me to know if there's a problem Because some things I will have to do and she can't witchy My thought is is like I feel like a document like that if it doesn't have an owner that's like responsible for Either managing or delegating. It's just sort of gonna or like bringing it back to our gap.  We're kind of just gonna forget about it So maybe so like if that's something that we want to use then I think we have to like commit to it Um, and if it's not something we're gonna commit to then that's okay But I think we need to actively make the decision and non-passively be like well, it's there if we want it I don't know those those are just my thoughts Okay um my My two cents would be I think we need it Because we're gonna need it when we get to the point of writing things down Which is coming? So I would at this point say to people Please see if you can access it familiarize yourself with it Use it And I will commit to making sure that it becomes part of these meetings If necessary, I can I should imagine Be able to excerpt it and mail it as an attachment um And elizabeth says she's on the SharePoint and she doesn't see the spreadsheet That's discussed. All right I don't recall it being a spreadsheet per se um, I'm gonna have to get into a different account To to get into that SharePoint, but I'll double check and see if I can find the title Thank you. Yeah, but if you could just tell me the title, I'm sure I can find it. I'll put it in the chat with a link Okay Jess I just want to say that the um document that I recall working on with susanna and um, rebecca was um Really like a summary of a lot of different initiatives taking place around the state um, and Not that that could not be a good starting point for whatever document we want to create Um, but I just want to clarify especially if people are looking for it in SharePoint that That's what I recall it being And I'm also going to say something that will uh embarrass me, but maybe other people are thinking this too if um Perhaps erin you could re maybe you already said this. Sorry if I missed it resend the SharePoint link because I don't know If I saved it anywhere, so I could use a resend Um, I did say I would do that precisely for the reason that and here's where here's where Maybe we want to think about a different platform is if you don't have the link in front of you Or you don't have some kind of way of saving all these different links to all the different boards and panels and projects You're on it can be really hard to dig those things up So I appreciate that difficulty that that happens to me all the time where I find myself like digging through my inbox with search terms um, so Yeah, that's me, but um It's this is an ongoing issue, right? We've talked about a lot Is how do we ensure access to all of the shared documents that we want to be able to work on together? And we have been working on it so I mean a lot so if there are still problems. I certainly apologize, but Please don't take that as evidence that no one has been listening to the concerns that have been expressed here Elizabeth Yeah, I just wanted to jump in and say I I feel like I I'm gonna bring us back into us to a circle a full circle here, but Jessica you just mentioning that the document that you worked on was kind of just a Larger scope of everything that's working on. I think that's the document I sent every sent to everybody last night in that case. Yeah I think that that I think the document I sent is the document in question That everybody's remembering. So I think the ask that is to take that document And put it into a spreadsheet That is and then assign people the duty of making sure it's updated continuously. That seems like that's kind of where we're landing I seem so to me. Um, okay, so we need to turn that into a spreadsheet That is another task Aaron. Can you and I talk about that later? Okay Um, that will happen That will happen Thank you Thank you all. Um Anything else on this Witchy. Oh no, you've got a thumb up. Never mind. Sorry.  I don't know what's going on all right Any other announcements that anyone has Aaron. Yes. I'm sorry. I'm typing in the chat about the name of this document, which now I can just tell you since I'm talking It is if you look in the rdap SharePoint and you go to rdap 2022 2023 Look for a document titled compilation of reports and recommendations There's really not that many documents in the rdap 22 23 folder. So you should be able to find it um One thing I had asked aton if I could have a little time this evening to just throw out there is that If you haven't already heard The vermont judiciary's dei commission is engaging in some work to solicit community engagement around how the judiciary is doing on dei issues and I would Also, just so you know other rdap members besides myself who are Have been appointed to this commission are rebecca turner and susana davis And I hope i'm not missing anybody, but please interrupt if I did miss somebody But in terms of the community engagement panels There have been just two the first one was in burlington the second one was in wanouski and The judiciary is definitely looking to improve the The process to improve the community engagement aspect of it and to try to ensure that The the community really feels like this is something that they can engage in and It's it's a work in progress The judiciary has folks i've talked to there have acknowledged that They want to do better and they're really looking for ways to improve The outreach and the engagement So just wanted you all to know about this effort the next one The next forum is at four o'clock on thursday January 19th, it is in bennington at the courthouse It is also On webex and you can request a link through the judiciary's DEI commission webpage, which I will put in the chat If anyone knows of any good contacts for the judiciary to reach out to Please let me know and I can pass that along perhaps they already have but I just thought this could be a great group to Ask for names of folks in the bennington area that we make sure we let them know about this forum And then the last little piece of the community Engagement is that there is on the same webpage that I will provide a link to A place where you can submit comments And those can be anonymous. So even though the boxes for where you submit comments Like ask for a name Maybe even like an email or some other Identifying info you don't have to submit all of that information In order to submit a comment So if you have any thoughts or feedback or ideas that you want to share with the judiciary DEI commission, please please do so We we really so welcome that That's all thanks. Okay um I would like us to move into the relatively quick recaps of the work of our subcommittees um Please it's 1840 right now. Well roughly Meaning it's 20 minutes to seven um, if we could do this within 20 minutes that would be great and that leaves an hour for alex um, and for her presentation and for um question the answer uh time So I'd like to start with the juvenile justice people even though I know what they're going to say So either tyler or elizabeth go ahead i'm going to invite elizabeth to go ahead and and say what you know she's going to say Sounds good, and I will try to keep this super quick too. Um, and I think perhaps Maybe this will be a little bit more of a work I I hate to I hate to say that but sometimes I think that's the best way to do to do this, right? so and to go back to the document that we just went around in a circle on um You know over the summer For those of you that um, we're with us. I did a pretty broad They think I spent a couple hours of of course of two different meetings going into A lot of different work that's going on in different in different realms and organizations And state advisory groups etc across the savermount about juvenile justice And we never had a chance to really debrief and have a conversation about Within that realm of work What our daff wants to get involved in what our daff really specifically sees as their scope of work And what they want to jump into so my main ask to this larger group is What would you like? um our Very small subcommittee of two, although I believe Rebecca has offered to to join so will be a subcommittee of three To really dive into And the reality is is that you know The juvenile justice world Also branches into other aspects, right? You know, it has It it overlaps with our child welfare system with our education system with many other aspects And that's represented in the document that I sent out last night But what I would really like is to know what this group wants us to really focus on and what We should continue to work on so that might mean reviewing that document and saying oh This is something that I really think that we should talk about or You know, this is something that I think another group is already working on and we don't need to add our two cents I will also remind you and I don't know if Rebecca has had a chance to hop back on yet, but um marshal paul Did join us over the summer and he made a very direct pitch for us to focus specifically on Um youth who are in the adult system, right? So youth who are charged with the big 12 offenses so that I just I do want to remind you all of that as well He he did specifically come to to make sure that that opinion was raised so That's my quick and dirty knowing we only have 20 minutes for however many subcommittees Well, no, and that's good because you've just given us the homework Um, and you've sent it out already Which and this will go on the agenda and grant you may listen in for this. Um, this will go in Um on the agenda for our meeting in february um, in other words Look over that document And see what it is. I mean and answer elizabeth's question Basically, what is it in there that you as a member of this panel feel that this panel should take up In its report for december of 2023 Sound right elizabeth That sounds absolutely perfect And I will say I don't know if this is the right time. I may or may not be at the next meeting I'm going on maternity leave the end of february Um, so it depends on when When when you know when things happen, but I'm sure I you know, I have full faith tyler will be able to Help in this stat and I'll be back In june so right and then maybe in february And congratulations Okay, um So that was why I wanted to sort of say, you know Listen to what's going on here to that what elizabeth I knew she was going to say this And I just I knew there was going to be homework and I wanted her to put that out there so that we can Um focus on that knowing that that will be on the agenda next month uh tyler Thank you aton and I would just like to share that I am Very happy for elizabeth and I'm very terrified with those months will bring Because I'm trying to imagine what work is going to be like without her there for a couple months And it's awful to think about so we can put that off the table now for discussion I did also want to circle back to the to the spreadsheet that elizabeth shared to what we would like you all to the like kind of look over and Just because I I know there's some new faces in this in in this room that Haven't been around since the start of the conversation that generated this report I want to make sure I I might be a little embarrassed to to kind of Channel what I heard you saying a little bit ago jessica about asking a question about the share point link site um, just I want to make sure that I'm aligned with how everybody is thinking about how that report came to be um, and in my mind it started with a conversation of what do we want to take on next as this group And through that, you know, rebecca you jessica a handful of you got together and said well We should just organize what is happening And so all of that came to that first iteration of the report and in that we said boy something is really missing in here And that's juvenile justice to which elizabeth and I but mostly elizabeth put in all the The what's in blue in that document that is talking about what is already happening with juvenile justice So the reason I'm kind of rehashing that is how this quote unquote report came to be as it is Is it's really designed in purpose for us to focus on what do we want to work on? And I'm bringing that up because well I'm interested in this group looking over the juvenile justice stuff and saying what do you want us to work on It also doesn't have to be the juvenile justice stuff through the the context of the rdap If we want to focus our energy on other adult things or or the you know, the adult side of the equation I think that's fine I I bring it up because I want you to know that the efforts that are documented in there Are going to be ongoing in their own way in their own universe Regardless of whether the rdap wants to have a role in moving that forward And I think that's probably true of a lot of what's on the adult report as well So please go through that and don't be like well, that's important. We need to ride that too We need to be on that too. We need to stay on form because I am I I I do want to express caution for this group that we don't bite off far more than we can chew By taking on everything all at once. So thank you for indulging me Um, just wanted to make sure I was aligned with where everybody is that please correct me if I have it wrong in my head Sounds about right to me. Um, uh, okay Whichy The community safety review review as it were Yeah, excellent. So, um gay green and folks from from crg. We were all able to meet um two times and sort of Uh, try to hash out what is really the scope of this work? Um, and I and we all came to the conclusion Not it became a little bit difficult with me being the sole boating member from rdap to really make a decision on where to go, um Like we definitely have you know, at least five five reports that we could review from around vermont or so or That more or less that number it might be a little bit less But feeling like once your g doesn't necessarily have the capacity for it Which means a lot of the work would fall on the on j on j Um and and me and feeling like that's not really The place where we want to be at this moment So i'm kind of like putting out the ask to back to rdap. Are there actual voting members from rdap? We're willing to put in the work to read through these reports and or establish what at the actual scope should be If we should only be looking at these reports or also report to the country or in the new england region, etc Um and bring back recommendations to rdap and if it's not something that we want to necessarily pick up right now That's okay, but I think we do need to have a discussion here in rdap of do we continue that? subcommittee and if so Are you willing to step up? and that's basically it folks because The voting members that's pretty much directed at you um us We need to either make a decision to do this or not at this point um I would what would you recommend witchy that we had that discussion at our next meeting in february I mean, I think something to To think about is our time is short right if you want to establish scope and read through these numerous reports We got to start working on it right So if it's okay with everyone i'd rather just Do Siri decided to read um what i'm saying. Um, so I mean, I think we should make a decision Today if we don't feel like we have enough time to think about it Then you know sure punt it off to that worry, but my feeling is the sooner we make a decision and start working or not the better Okay, um Then let's do this fairly quickly Are there people who feel that they can work on this committee who are voting members of the panel? Okay, and so I am taking this as a no I would say I mean I would I I think it depends. It's it's a really loaded question.  But what's the time commitment? What what exactly work are you looking to have done? So I think maybe a little bit more information in terms of what the expectations would be would be helpful Whichy can you do that? Well, I I think my point is um, you know is do I necessarily have you? Authority to be an unpaid volunteer to come up with a scope for it, right? What i'm asking is for people to come forward and be like okay communities Did the safety reviews should we look at them? If so, how should we approach it? Right, so what i'm asking is for people to decide what that scope is Um, and I don't necessarily feel like it should be on me to decide that Okay, there are how many reports you have five. Yes, uh and most five Okay, can you give us a sense of how many how long they are roughly? Um Mom it's great. I will not rely on my memory. Can I take a look at them real quick and then get back to They within this meeting um Why don't we let you do that and we'll circle back to this after alex's presentation Does that make sense Yep, that sounds good. Thank you. Okay. Um, and then I guess lastly here Would be the second look subcommittee and that would be rebecca um, and that would then move into um alex's presentation Hi, can you hear me we can Oh, excellent. Yeah, okay, but I'll be fast. Um So I think a second look committee has not met for at least a couple months But when we last met we landed on where we are At this moment, which was that we thought we we needed to hear from experts in this area Uh from around the country And we decided as a group that rather than have these kinds of presentations lost on the entirety of the panel We wanted to bring these people to a full panel at our monthly meetings to share What they know so that we could get some grounding As we launch and explore what we're interested in doing here in vermont and so Uh, Richie, I know you had a name You I think david singleton Said something in the chat and we missed him But he is also someone who was identified As as one of those experts in this area and of course we have the two Wonderful people here at night from sentencing project to share with us What they know and so I think what Where this committee is at is we expect to Bring forward Experts are hoping to have david singleton actually come back and speak to to us in another Meeting and which he I know you had a name That you are hoping we could Have invited here. So I'll follow up with you But so more to comment if any of you have other names of people that we should be aware of Please send them my way and we'll we'll we'll figure out a way to get some space to talk with us about this And that's all I have Okay Any questions or comments from anybody before we move ahead? Okay, no Then uh, I guess I would say rebecca. Would you like to introduce alex? Um, Alex Bailey and and alex is um, did I see a colleague here as well? No, I'm can't find it. Oh, that's right. Dr. Reese. Yes. Dr. Reese. Yes Hi, Dr. So I met these two last year Two months two weeks ago three weeks ago where I learned about their work and interest in um Second look legislation here in Vermont. Of course, this is a sentencing project folks and Oh shoot, I'm sorry. I didn't come prepared with a little background on the sentencing project I'm a little embarrassed but alex do you mind? I mean, this is what you were going to talk to us about but certainly Experts in this field along with more than just second look but talking to us tonight as I understand Specifically on second look and because time is short. I'll leave it at that. Thank you Okay And alex the floor is yours Thank you so much. Um, thank you all so much for for giving me time here at your meeting I'm very honored to to be in the company of People who are doing so much work for their state to make it better It's really a wonderful and unfortunately in my experience working in all 50 states refreshing thing to see Where a group of people from all across the state from all different backgrounds are coming together to really dig into what Can be done concretely to make their state as equitable as safe And as anti-racist as possible. So, um, that's really really fantastic. So as I said before my name is alex bailey I'm the senior campaign strategist at the sentencing project I lead our campaign to end life imprisonment Meaning that I work in all 50 states to roll back mass incarceration And in rolling back mass incarceration. That means you're rolling back a lot of things You're rolling back a history of sexism. You're rolling back a history of anti-lgbtq You're rolling back a history of every ism that you can think of because that's what we've done with our mass carceral system So for the last 30 years the sentencing project has pretty much been at the vanguard of research and advocacy around our nation's mass carceral issues Um, we have reports ranging from obviously second look Through every single state. Um, we have uh data and I will actually put in the chat here for everyone This is our report on second look written by um, one of our are now one of our head of research uh, Nazgul Ghandnush Which talks about why rolling back extreme sentencing particularly at this point in history is um, absolutely vital And I'm joined by my colleague dr. Broshani Reese. Um, who uh, is a restorative justice facilitator Um, who has dedicated her life and work to ending mass incarceration And uh always serves as a sort of a great north star when it comes to the uh, the brain science that that goes behind What it is that we do So at the sentencing project the vast majority of my portfolio now encompasses second look bills What are second look bills? second look bills allow a person after a fairly long term of incarceration to go back before a judge To determine Whether or not continued punishment is necessary If this person is deemed to be rehabilitated and is able to re-enter the community safely At that time they will be able to do so now every state has a different process When it comes to this We are currently working um in seven tier one states um on repeals that are involved with second look We are also mounting a second look legal network Which will be up and running this year We hired the former head of the innocence network, which everybody, you know the innocence project They have branches all over Um the country we hired their former head to basically talk to every legal agency in the country that does any type of post-conviction Resentencing litigation Everything from law school clinics to practices that take on pro bono work to individual attorneys To defenders offices that did resentencing And that community of practice came together and helped us put together recommendations on what second look should do So I dug into vermont um a little bit. We're we're digging even further into the data But at least as of seven o'clock this morning You all had 1348 people currently incarcerated in the state of vermont Um you have a population that is 94 white and I'm sure you all know this And unfortunately in terms of racial disparities Despite having a relatively small population Compared to many other states in the country the racial inequities are In my opinion problematic disturbing large Yeah, this hand gesture. I don't know how we quantify that system, but we'll go with that hand gesture. Good hand gesture jessica The reason I am here very specifically and I want to get into discussion About this because I hate not being able to see people's faces. I like to be able to interact since I can't be in a room with you all um You're all here because you're concerned And there are a lot of things that Can be done on the front end To deal with racial inequity My personal opinion is that unless we go all the way into the harm that has already been done And really learn from that history go back through our system and reevaluate All of the cases that can be reevaluated under this banner Then that is actually a great starting point for us to start to Figure out what went wrong a lot of times The people who have come back on second look have been the best teachers And guidance on that research um in washington dc where I live We passed a second look bill. My fellow was a recipient of it The several hundred people who've received second look resentencing in washington dc um Are now Some of the primary leaders in our in our city around our around our carceral issues and in general So I just want to stop there and say is everybody sort of with me so far So taking a look at vermont's data, um, I have been so bold as to actually draft a bill um To uh present to you all and i'm just going to drop a document here in the chat It's going to make it a little bit easier for everybody to follow along because bills are annoying to read But I'm going to tell you in essence what we are proposing vermont um Although you all have have taken steps to reduce your overall carceral populations since 2003 You've doubled your amount of people who are serving what the sentencing project would describe as extreme sentences um sentences that would be um virtual life or would take you into old age As of today 22.47 percent of your prison population is over the age of 50 Which um given how prison ages people is considered senior um by these standards The bill that we're proposing is that after 10 years of incarceration You would be permitted to apply To see if continued incarceration was necessary in your case We would ask that a multitude of things be taken into consideration and they're fairly I think for the people on this call, uh fairly obvious things We would want the court to take um into consideration whether somebody had medical conditions um major mental illness um we Basically used the federal standard on that in almost all of our bills We would want um them to obviously uh review whether this person was under any sort of duress at the the time At the commission of their crime the history and characteristics of the incarcerated person at the time of petition Obviously their age and we want them to consider the age at which they went into prison unfortunately, um vermont like many states um at what we now know about brain development is that people under the age of 26 or as my father says 55 for men, um Uh Don't have fully developed brains. Um, so A lot of the bills that have been passed have been based on this sort of new brain science that we have available to us So we would ask for special consideration for people who were incarcerated under the age of 25 And this is a practice that's already happening across the country after miller And that age in many states is creeping up anyway In michigan, one of the states we're working in they're now considering people up to the age of 21 already based on this cognitive science We obviously want to take a look at the nature of the offense including changing societal attitudes regarding those types of crimes The circumstances of the person's incarcerations including their conditions of confinement physical and sexual psychological abuse that they might have dealt with while they were incarcerated Obviously anything we know about their mental health. We want to take a look at effectiveness of counsel at the time of their sentencing And obviously whether or not they were the victim of physical sexual psychological or intimate partner household abuse that in any way led to What became their criminalized behavior? And of course, we'll leave it open to the courts to anything else that they would feel They would deem necessary to consider in order to Make this bill most effective What we're saying is is that everybody would have after 10 years of incarceration mind you for first degree Currently in vermont. I believe I know there are judges on this call. I believe it's 35 years Is currently the minimum And that could go up currently to life without the possibility of parole Is that correct judge morracy? Well, it depends on what degree of homicide you're talking about but first degree First degree is a presumptive minimum of 35 correct. And then I believe second degree is um a term of less than 20 years correct Those are both extensive prison periods. So this bill does not guarantee release I want to be very clear about that This is an opportunity for consideration to show rehabilitation for release But it does allow the system to go back and review What has been done thus far? A good portion of your currently incarcerated population and I'm currently crunching the exact number Um would be eligible to have their cases looked at I think that this is very important because the people who've served a lot of the longest sentences in your state are predominantly black and brown people And when we talk about changing societal attitudes one of the things that we definitely have to consider is the over criminalization of black and brown populations Was that a hand judge morracy? It is. Thank you. Um, so I'm trying. I don't know if you I think I think you said that you had Put a copy of the bill in the chat, but I don't see it So it's a google doc. You should see a google doc link, but I'll drop it again Okay If you on the link that's right there, you should be able to see it. Okay. Great. Thank you. And so how does that? How does your bill? address Many of the factors that you just want you just outlined are also Brought up at the original sentencing. So how does it work in other states in terms of Recognizing that these issues were already addressed once at the time of sentencing Well, I mean the argument very much is is that very frequently they they they haven't been We wouldn't have the the sort of racial disparities that we have I mean if if that were the case like even one of the cases I'm working on right now in michigan Is my friend susan brown she got stabbed in her pregnant stomach And in the ensuing struggle she killed him She's serving a life without parole sentence because at that time The understanding of domestic violence was not what it is now and it was not considered under judicial authority the way that it is now So I guess my question is it under the second look legislation that you've been working on Are the issues that have to be brought up? Pursuit to second look something that did not get brought up at the original sentencing. No No, okay. It's it's merely rehabilitation is is the is the opening reason about why the resentencing happens. However One of the things that can be considered in the case Is any Aspect of the trial that was problematic Okay. All right. Thank you Is everybody with me so far? Does this all make sense? Okay So this is you know, very much a preliminary bill I would very much like people's feedback about this But this basically just expands judicial authority to go back through And take a look to see if the people who are currently incarcerated should continue to be incarcerated After they have served 10 years, which if anybody can think back to what they were doing and who they were 10 years ago um It is a significant portion of a person's life Currently um as as we pointed out 35 years is the minimum under first degree No less than 20 years is the minimum for second degree Which could essentially take somebody more or less to the end of their life Um effectively and all that this bill really asks for Is that people be reviewed at regular increments to ensure that Continuing to hope to have them incarcerated is the appropriate course of action Dr. Reese Oh, please call me brashani. I let's see Everybody, please call me brashani. Um if I could just add something You Foundationally the purpose of second look is to address the public safety component So when somebody is sentenced, um, there is this idea that um at the time of the sentencing and from a forensic risk assessment perspective that this individual is dangerous And then we have to keep them incarcerated for a really long time And I think what second look wants us to you know wants to facilitate really is that We can't predict who a person is going to be 10 20 30 40 years from now and so at the time of the original sentencing this person may have been deemed as as you know, um dangerous to society and when we're looking at somebody later on um and again from restorative justice I'm wearing all the hats here from a restorative justice facilitator perspective That person may have had contact with their survivor. They may have gone through a process. There may have been forgiveness There's a lot that has happened in in 10 to 30 50 years And so second look would allow somebody who would otherwise not ever have a judicial opportunity to go back before a judge the opportunity to go back before a judge And um, I would just add one thing before I answer Hands one of the major things that comes up in second look questions is How do survivors of crime? feel about this Resentencing um, we actually recently took part in a report that um as I started answering questions I will put into the chat Which was actually done of survivors of violent crime their family members if that person wasn't surviving um da's To discuss what it is exactly survivors actually want and I can say personally as a survivor of violent crime on unfortunately more than one moment in my life, um that you know, not everybody comes to the same conclusion in a lot of states that we're we're in um a lot of times there is Even support from survivors or they said like, you know, I don't want to know anything about it I leave this up to the court system. Sometimes they do want to be involved Um, and we sort of allow that to play out. This is not a system that cuts sort of any aspect of this out This is a full blown reconsideration um after a decade or more that If this person can be readmitted to society, uh, jessica, I believe I saw your hand first and then I saw the kessler and then jennifer I actually think that um Barb had your hand up first Okay, thank you okay, um, so I'm with the state police and I did a time in Detectives where we worked homicides and stuff and I've been involved in some pretty nasty cases and one of which this person is serving life in prison in vermont Killed a 12 year old girl and did unspeakable things to her before she died. Um I don't want to get upset I I totally agree with second look. Um But I think there should be people who are ineligible.  Um, I know it will continue to happen In our society, but I think there should be um consideration for not looking at certain cases and his would be one He is an evil evil human being without redemption um That's all Jessica Thanks. Um, I Was going to ask this question and then brashani brought this up. So, um restorative justice is increasingly Kind of my my area of interest um and work um and So I am wondering how if And how restorative justice is ever incorporated either sort of formally in legislation second look legislation or more informally Maybe not actually explicit in legislation, but Like how it's considered if it's if if you're seeing any sort of trend of restorative justice processes um being Considered in some of this second look legislation or the work around it. Thanks So just to answer just from an pure legislative standpoint and then I'll let brashani put on her her hat as a facilitator um What we have done And the only thing that really can be done is to say in Most states have a victims bill of rights Um and in the victims bill of rights We have amended it to say that the person is entitled to restorative justice Facilitation should upon notification. They decide that they want it Um, so that becomes their choice Um, and they can either opt out of the proceedings They can say that they don't think that this person should be eligible for Anything or they can decide to engage in a restorative facilitation process All of these options are open to them In every state that that we've proposed it. Um, and you know, and I will say, uh, you know, just to the officer's point You know, I survived a heinous rape as a nine-year-old Um, you know, I have very much been through The pain and trauma that that causes Um And I have actually done a restorative process with my Rapist with the person who assaulted me Um, which was a major part of my healing and is a major proponent of why I now do what I do for a living um Watching and learning what he went through and why he did the things that he Ultimately ended up doing was very eye-opening for me Um, and really made me a huge proponent of giving people a second chance um Is it is it witchy? Is that how you say your name? Yep, an easy way to remember is like we She like having fun. First of all, that's the coolest name ever Thank you. I'm named after a potterie container um Yeah, so I appreciate you sharing your story, alex um I I guess So there's definitely like a sort of like my own opinion in the form of a question is like um in response to the to the captain of like Yeah, that's a heinous crime and it's like awful to think about and we believe as an advisory group then that Know that there are certain people who just don't deserve redemption and therefore Like is it not a blanket right that everyone has a chance to re-examine their case? Right sort of like the kind of ethical argument that we would need to discuss in order to assert that kind of exemption um And in that case I I would also want to ask In this and I have two questions here um the first one being You know if someone does get out because of the second look or has you know that that right to to rehabilitation on And they recommit The the same type of crime Is there something in the bill for that and then the second question, which is unrelated Um, yes that we've discussed a lot about like, you know, one of the opportunities of second look is that we can address past biases right like thinking about the 90s versus to like 2020 right and thinking about the The biases that existed within our judicial system, especially specifically our judges and we were debating of like Should it be a different judge? Do we open that to more biases? Like is it okay? But happens to be the same judge. So I'm wondering also if there's any language around that Thank you. So um that has worked differently in different states. So in a lot of states judges have been uh, their carceral population is so Elderly at this juncture that most of the judges who were benched at the time are no longer Um and other states have decided to ensure that that doesn't happen that they want That you go before sentencing judge, but it is not specifically your original sentencing judge Um, it becomes a shuffle different states have made different decisions On that for that very reason New york state being one of them Around their domestic violence survivor justice act for the simple reason that watching the extreme sentencing that happens to women and those particular biases that it was not Appropriate they felt for them to go back before the same person um So I mean that is something to discuss around the bill Um and how you sort of want to to handle that or couch that does that make sense? Yeah, yeah In all of the states that uh including well my non-state dc is not a state word district That uh have second look or considering second look They are not currently carving out offenses for the simple reason that in doing so Nullifies the point of second look which is to go back and look and review You are not guaranteed to come home by any stretch of the imagination um You are merely given an opportunity to plead your case Um, and therefore they felt one due to populations And what the offenses were particularly around Women and black and brown people over sentencing also becomes a concern Historically speaking so they did not want to carve out any offense types Um I don't i'm sorry. I always lose track of whose hand was up first I think you have erin at this point. Okay. Thank you and then you have jennifer Thank you I'm not sure this is a question, but I just want to kind of call up A thought that i'm having around the notion that You know, I'm not the same person that I was 15 20 years ago But at the same time and I know that you know, we all know that's true with brain science and Human development, but at the same time also I've not been incarcerated I've had all the opportunities available to me to you know Do realize my dreams work on myself, you know, live a full and free life. And so I'm just wondering um If second look legislation has facilitated conversations around or even may be programming around actual rehabilitation inside of prisons because you know Not all Facilities provide the same kind of opportunities for real rehabilitation. They're much more about punishment than reform and correction Most facilities offer next to nothing Generally speaking across the country. Um, you're lucky if you get a decent meal that won't cause you to have diabetes and hypertension and The average age of death for men is I believe 53 or 54 While incarcerated at this juncture. So if you go to prison, you're You're gonna die young more than likely um So the answer to your question is is that I was recently I traveled to facilities all across the country talking to lifers associations about this And here's what we know about people who have served extreme sentences One, they are the least likely to recidivate and we've tracked this all across the country Two, they are actually the most likely to engage in rehabilitative efforts. They usually become leaders educators You know, they're the one that take the young people under their wing when they come in I have friends who are currently incarcerated who are getting master's degrees from the chicago theological seminary Who changed their whole program to include them? So Taking a look at extreme sentences and those folks your recidivism rates are very low to also answer witchy's question But also when you put hope in front of people there is now an incentive To take part in rehabilitation But most carceral systems um and to my understanding including vermons Do not really offer much rehabilitative anything to people who are serving extreme sentences because the the Accepted line on them is that they're going to die there Or you know given conditions they will expire of natural causes before The end of their sentences so You know this bill also opens up a driver For the state to do better in that regard But even without that I have met people who and I am not taking away from some of the horrible things That were their initial offenses um, I'm Very abundantly aware Of some of the things that they've done. I've met with the people who've survived them Um, and I can tell you that 20 30 years on You wouldn't know this person. They're a completely different person Uh, Jennifer Thank you for um, you're Bringing this forward and I do have to do two disclaimers I didn't was a wasn't able to see the bill and also i'm not a voting member of rnf. I'm purified virtue of My being able to be included by my partners and allies. I'm the director of the vermons center for project services And this piece is really um significant for us and by the couple of different questions for you And again, I want to thank you for the work that you've been doing. Um One of the pieces that I had a question about was Yep And I think some of the members of this panel if I might speak um, dr No, sort of logo. Is that okay if I ask questions? Please okay, um If one of the pieces that we're here to think about is how we apply Laws in a way that can mitigate this broad impact How do we know that this is not going to result in additional? Uh ramifications in terms of implicit bias, how do we know that this is actually going to change A culture when we haven't really gotten to that piece and is it going to result in more? frankly white people who have means Being able to take advantage of these pieces versus um, so that's one of the questions that I have and I have other questions But that's Is it going to result in more or do we have data that says it will result in less because I don't know that brahmana shifted and I'm worried that When we think we're solving a problem. We're going to create a different one So here's what I can tell you from other places that have implemented this um, the vast majority of people who are its recipient are black and brown Now the people who are privileged in any system Without completely tearing this apart, which I do not pretend this bill does Um, you know, this does not redistribute wealth in the state of vermont or the country, right? You know, this does not redistribute privilege in the state of vermont or the country Will people with privilege be able to take advantage of it?  They're gonna live the vast majority of their life there or they're gonna die there um, and so If this will actually be an opportunity the first opportunity that many of them will get especially since you guys have a high proportion of people who went to prison under the age of 25 And I can also say as somebody whose family is from the south my family is originally from mississippi and louisiana vermont sends a lot sends some of its carceral population to our to our states and I can Has anybody here visited a prison in mississippi or louisiana? All right. Well, here's what i'll tell you my loved one is currently incarcerated in angola. I'm sure you've heard of it. Oh, yeah um You don't come back from those prisons the same So being all being offered this shot I don't pretend that this undoes everything in the system But I would argue that it is a vital initial step to go back and look at the history of sentencing in your state Now for vermont That's a very different lift than a lot of the states that i'm working in like for example in michigan Their prison population is 36 000 as of this morning They would have to review 10 000 cases 5 000 lifers just to make a a dent vermont has an opportunity to do this And to do this type of review with a lot fewer people So I think that it it will be a very good opening system But also it will be the first time that vermont can actively track Resentencing You could actually start to put numbers to all of this in real time And one of the things that we've encouraged a lot of states to do is actually to put a research component As an accompaniment bill To the second look bill So that they can actually really start to look at in real time How what they've done historically but also what's happening now Does that make sense to you jennifer so I mean Yeah, absolutely. I think her research components important. Um, I'm just without And again, I apologize without having seen the bill I just know that various states do this in different ways in terms of Who this applies to who triggers it these other pieces and I want to make sure that Um, and I agree with you that victims do want to be a part of This part Yeah, it's because they don't agree with it or maybe they do and I think people assume that victims are uncomfortable With these conversations and they absolutely Do want to be engaged. Um, sometimes in a really supportive way So what the person has been working on but I think that For me it's working out the details And making sure that we're really transparent and clear and criteria um I think so that That so yeah for me that's You know, if if one of the Pieces we're trying to solve and we don't have a lot of people here in vermont that serve life sentences um You actually have a fair number of what we would consider with a sentencing project would consider to be virtual lifers So people actually sentenced to life without parole. No, that is a relatively low number um people serving 20 years or more Is a more significant number But we have earned time now we have presumptive parole. So that's shifting as we do a lot of great reform in vermont. So I think that our presumptive lifers Are changing and I think our mandated sentencing is also changing So i'm just thinking about what it looks like for us here in vermont And not trying to be obstructed us and I will not speak anymore because i'm just here by the grace of the panel But I think there are some pieces that are shifting here in vermont um, and I think that You know the devil's in the details and I do think that um I want to understand what the end goal is Which is not to make anything Um Inactivate any of the things that we're seeing here in vermont, which I agree with you that we are stating those and remember that victims um who are marginalized are also Seeing those disparate impacts in terms of justice and how that plays out and so I'll just leave that there and I don't I know that Tim Looters demand also had a question, but I think he's on the phone, but he wanted to make sure that he was Uh included. I don't know how he is but uh included. I don't know how to do this technology Thank you. Yeah, no i'm waiting i'm with waiting for my wife who's getting out of spinning class here in montelier My dog's in the car. So if he he barks, please forgive me. Um, no problem so So yeah, thanks for the presentation and and yeah, I'd love when I am in front of my computer later I'd love to take a look at stuff and so part of my work with the department of states attorneys prior to Working as the legislative attorney was working as a deputy state attorney or in some of the states that you've worked in an assistant district attorney And I was assigned post conviction release cases for washington county and So in in vermont, there's five pathways to appeal And some of them would you know fall certainly well below the 10 year that you're talking about but there's of course the 90 day reconsideration There's pcrs which have no statute of limitations and which have certain criteria And then there's supreme court appeals and then both forms of habeas state and federal and in the other states Is there any requirements that you have to like exhaust? other remedies for appeal um Like is there anything that's my first question about any of that stuff in other states just because I haven't looked at it and then the second part was just as a point of Coming from the world that I just came from working on pcrs um post conviction release cases that I Recently in in my work doing that came to two voluntary agreements that were you know Stemmed from the filing of a pcr But one I cited at the resentencing that the gentleman had was 20 years old at the time was under the influence of number of really difficult factors in his life Including substance use disorder that was mostly stemming from multi-generational issues From his mom and and other folks in his life And it was it was effectively second, you know a second look right and The things that had been brought to the table As for the basis for the pcr were important right but when we actually talked about let's resent this person There was some important things there obviously letting the victims know after it was he'd been in in for eight years And I have to tell you you know this group that it was one of the most Emotional like days that I've had as a prosecutor Seeing them wear his red socks pat out of the courtroom and judge morris. He spent time in this courtroom, too But it was it was after her time And it was a wonderful moment But it was You know allowed through a current remedy that we that we have That does drive for victims, you know to have a have a moment And it was took some doing to let the victims know after eight years trying to find them And then the second story was is a more serious one more in line with what the captain was talking about but um a person Who was having severe health issues despite a very egregious crime to a three-year-old sexual in nature um I came to a difficult decision that I'm sure was unpopular amongst some prosecutors but that Due to the his deteriorating health Despite that not being the reason for the pcr I wanted to release him with conditions into the community and Again, I'm just showing as two examples of the current remedies in vermont and how they're functioning Not to say that they're happening that way that way everywhere They were two important cases for me that I wanted to share with this group But also with you in terms of the current landscape and my wife just got in the car from spinning. So that's what's happening but And so, you know, I just wanted to share that and I know it's mostly commentary Because I appreciate what you're doing and the work you're doing across the country because clearly there is national issues and vermont's not immune from them Um Believe me that is so true and there was another pcr recently in washington county where there was a clear issue Of racial bias that took place at the time and it was disclosed years later So the state of vermont happily stipulated to release of that person So there's a there's the last thing i'll mention to the group. Well, I've got the floor Is that updating the pcr and this is not coming from the 14 election state's attorneys But as a point of discussion updating the pcr statute If you want to expressly provide for racial bias, I mean, there's certain ways to I think use our existing remedies Effectively and they're not nothing is the simple as we know in the sort nothing is the simple solution Everything takes little bits and pieces here and there but I wanted to offer that out there to the group I know it's a lot to the digest and sorry for talking for a while No, thank you for sharing that. I mean like a couple of things to point out second look is the best of research in terms of remedies that You know all of the criminologists and everyone who who's worked on this for decades could come up with for a couple of different reasons A lot of states have done a lot of tweekings to a lot of sections of law. What we know is that proving racial bias Is almost impossible In most cases And so what we asked in this, I mean So we thought about like all of these things, but then you get to the actual practice of law and it's like, okay Well, how am I actually going to prove 30 years later that that person was racist? It's going to be almost impossible to do And so what we did was turn this into a positive as opposed to focusing on all the negatives Okay This person has been incarcerated for a significant amount of time. Let's take a look at the difference as to who they are now Let's take a look at the rehabilitation Let's take a look at everything that they've done to decide if punishment should be continued because we know the recidivism rates for lifers That's been established It's been established in every state including vermont that Um There is a disproportionality when it comes to race and sentencing It's been proven everywhere about the impact of gender and sentencing You know, these are all sort of established criminological facts But what could we actually do in a law that would be broad enough to give everybody a chance and have it be focused on something that is provable in a court of law And rehabilitation Is a lot easier to prove And yes taken taken to account all of the other factors Right. I mean all of those things need to be taken into account But the fact of the matter just in terms of data and yes, I do think vermont has done a lot of great work But since 2003 You've doubled your population of those serving life sentences even though your overall carceral population has gone down And that's something you know to flag Um I can't I think it was witchy. I believe you had your hand first up and I believe it was judge morrisey and then reverend mark Yeah, um, thank you I love being in these because I always learned so much and so just really appreciating for Everything everyone is is running into the space. Um, there are two things that I think have brought up to to me That's worth acknowledging. Maybe it's more of a common lesson questions one You know noting that yes that we have a less Like a lower population than there than other states. We also have less resources and less capacity Um So it's worth noting for us in our depth as we you know prepare our report You know to look through this bill. What are ways that we're creating bottlenecks and how can we preempt those bottlenecks to Make sure that for example someone who like in the 90 day It's like well, then that requires lawyers and that requires this and that requires that and just like well The 90 days already passed, right? So making sure that we're thinking about ways out This can be efficient for those who are going to apply And for the resources that we need to put in as a state to make sure they're taking care of um, and the the second thing was You know to to this point of the different ways different pathways that we have It might be worth noting that as we talked about second look we we make it sort of like a very Explicit comparison of what what the second look offered that the others don't And why is this a solution and making because these questions are going to be asked of the legislation And it's important how it doesn't sort of get swiped away like we've seen with other bills Um, so just just those two that sort of are coming to my mind that is worth making sure those those thoughts are in the minutes Thanks Well eligibility numbers there's always the the number the number one Thing and that you know, this is something that the state tells you you're eligible for as opposed to you having to figure it out um Because figuring out resentencing from prison is um, if you don't have the money for legal help Is difficult Um Judge morrisey Um, you're you're muted ma'am. I can't I can't hear you Sorry about that. Um, the uh, and I also appreciate all the work you're doing. I really appreciate you being here tonight the In other states, is it the sentence itself that triggers the second look? Is there any consideration given to the fact whether or not it was a plea agreement? The vast majority of people serving time in vermont is the result of plea agreements where they have agreed to a Certain amount of time and oftentimes there's consideration given by the state at the outset for that agreement And if it's are the The other states looking at it just if it was a contested sentencing where there was actually Discretion by the court or is it if somebody's agreed to that sentence is being appropriate? They still qualify for the second look So No other state even think is thinking of it in that way The way that they're thinking of it is after you've served a certain amount of time. You're eligible. They are not um getting into the weeds on plea agreements because actually One of the major arguments around second look in across the country and the reason that a lot of actually like da's and defense attorneys Have stepped forward is to say that, you know, I've been in situations where the choice for my client was Almost all of their life for all of their life And so and you know, and they were being over sentenced, but I don't have the resources to fight that Um, you know or depending on the state. It's a capital case, right? So it's a case of You know, they're going to get pumped full of potassium chloride or they're going to get life without the possibility of parole And those are my options Um, and so they take life without the possibility of parole. There are a lot of arguments that have been put forth by um, even like fair and just prosecution Talking about plea agreements and why second look is actually necessary as to who gets offered what And all of this is the argument to simply say After you've served an extensive period of time, you are eligible to apply. You are not necessarily granted But you are eligible to apply And that based on all of the research and all the conversations we've had across the country is the best and cleanest way to do it to actually address mass incarceration And to go back and review cases And to do it at a point where we know from the criminological curve Where people are usually going to start to show differences in behavior We and reduced Criminality so on and so forth So all of this research came together with these recommendations Which is what we have served as the basis for all of the bills that we have worked on across the country If you actually look at the language of most of the bills, you'll see they all look very similar They're obviously retrofitted for that state's particular code But they all look very similar because it basically is is the best in show And are they and I know other people have questions So i'm not going to um dominate your time here, but the are they all based on the 10 year Generally, or is it based on a percentage of the sentence that they've served or is it just a everybody gets it at 10 years or Whether it's a 10 year sentence or a 35 year sentence So new york state has done 10 year or 50 percent of sentence If you've been sentenced to more than five years Which is the same replication that we've done for this bill for vermont Okay. All right. Thank you. Um based on prison populations, um michigan, we had to tear it out with the eldest and the sickest going first Simply because their prison population is so large Um, but that's not uh as serious an issue in vermont Thank you. Thanks uh reverend mark Or should I call you reverend hues? You can call me mark. Uh, good evening everyone. Um, alexandra. Um, thank you for coming and also, um, you know, it's clear that you've You know that you're you know a rock star and in some of the stuff that you're doing I'm sure everybody else is impressed too. I wanted to just say that um, You know the sentence and project is is really at the heart and soul of is this very uh, this very bored this very, um A group of folks here, uh, because when we um a lot of the research and I'll just put something up in the chat A lot of the research that was done back in 2016. You know, you probably know ashley nellis Uh, a lot of this very well You know, it really was you know, it was really looking at just what sad shape vermont was in at that time So I that's why I appreciate your presence I I I also would note that that this panel was Was uh constituted originally, uh with the um With the hope that it would be more oversight oriented and it would be focused on racial disparities in the criminal juvenile justice system advisory panel As it um right rightfully is named, but we we we wanted to call it oversight.  We wanted to be independent all that other stuff So just to kind of background and the reason why I said, uh, that is is out where I'm taking you is is that um You know clearly the focus of this, uh anil Uh has always been, you know, what do we do about the disparities in the system? Uh, and uh, that's why I said bingo When um, I think it was jennifer somebody had said hey, what about the disparities? It's just it's kind of like in and I don't I don't know that I have a question And and folks on this call know that I could talk for a while, which I won't um, but the thing is is that um You know the same thing happened when we started to introduce diversion programs And I think probably erin you're probably more familiar with some of this stuff than me on a call But we started introducing programs that maybe um, I don't know elizabeth You probably or have some insight into some of this too But you know, we introduced these programs for, you know, restorative justice or for trans Trans transformative justice or whatever you want to call it. Um, but then Those same disparities manifest themselves in the new, uh, as you know The new component the new aspect in in terms of the way that we're doing things So yeah, I would just you know, I think there is like one little question. This is just um, are you hearing this in in other places? um And I just would like to follow up on that The vast majority of second look recipients are black That's all that's all I can tell you. Um, and also the thing about second look that's very concrete Unlike a lot of programs where you're tracking outcomes, right, which you know, you can track a lot of different metrics Second look the first metric you track is freedom Which is pretty darn concrete and a massive difference to community. That's returning fathers. That's returning mothers That's returning siblings. You know, that's putting black families Families in general back together. Um, and so that in and of itself Is the concrete thing that I have actively seen from second look Um, because the fellow who sits in my office who I supervise is a second look recipient Warren allen. He's on our website. Um, I've sat through second look hearings. Um The vast I mean because the vast majority of the prison population is black It's almost hard For the vast Amount of the beneficiaries not also to be black or brown When said, you know, there are states where 70% of the population is black and brown So it's almost hard to to do it otherwise and in a state like vermont It would become painfully obvious Very quickly into these resentencing If there was that disparity happening, it would be so easy to actually track and pinpoint Which is actually what makes second look at least for me as a total data geek particularly exciting Yeah, I appreciate that and I would just say that, you know, here in vermont, you know, when when we're doing horrible We've we've got about a 10 or 11% incarceration rate for black folks I think we're somewhere hovering around nine or 10. You probably would know better than me right now 10.8 are black 3.4 are other you have 1% that's native in asian 1.6 That's more than one race for a total of 16.8 That represent not white So you would know that the the it's about 94.5% white in the state. So that's just those are ugly numbers But clearly the vast majority of our prison is white folks So that's that's the difference between vermont and the other states and i'm not trying to Throw a curveball at you But it is it's horrible the numbers are horrible And you know, we could talk about private prisons in mississippi if you want to as well But the thing is is that there's you know, there it's a different dynamic here as far as the demographics and it's it's harder to Lift to to rise all of the ships with uh with that tide here Um, and and I understand the approach it seems good It seems like it wouldn't work in in many other places and it probably would work here I don't know probably would but I but I do Understand the rationale because it's an indirect approach to get something done, which is what we have to do When we're trying to go after Leveling the playing field for black for black folks if for no other reason than the weaponization of the 14th amendment Um, but we won't talk about that tonight anyway So thank you for coming. I appreciate you. It's my pleasure. I mean 1.5 of vermont is black 10.8 of the prison percent of the prison population is black that In a different in a different population the terrible thing that I always point out To a lot of states is that actually although you have Different demographics per capita. You actually track some of the worst states in the country, which is you know, a terrible thing to say um Could you pronounce your name for me? I'm so sorry. Is it sing? Yes, team team. Thank you Alex, thank you for sharing your knowledge and the experience really appreciate it I I have two questions and the first one is about the financial cost of reviewing the the second look cases I wonder if other states bills or Laws address this an established funding for reviewing the cost. I know lot states charge a fee to apply for a second look case um That obviously is a financial um barrier for a lot of applicants and uh, does that cover the cost or is there a way to establish um funding for for reviewing the cases and the second one the legal support If I remember this information correctly, uh, or I got the information correctly. I think in bc um There is an effort to pair the second look applicants with pro bono legal teams So they can get support that they need to to apply for these cases, um Is that a common practice in other states and how do we ensure that the applicants get access to The the the legal or the the legal support that they they need so they so the you know, the disparity doesn't Get replicated in the process I'm so glad you asked that question This is exactly why the second look Network, which is an attorney network has been mounted at the sentencing project for that very reason to ensure Equal legal representation across the board to address the disparity of the very fact that People whose families can afford lawyers to help them apply for this are probably going to do very differently Than people who cannot now states have handled this differently Um depending on the size of their carceral population and their financial sort of wherewithal I have states where we've written bills that they are entitled To representation from the application phase from the public defender service Who will be given um a price per case? much the way they do with regular cases In some states, um They are not able to provide that and so a person so a person can either go prosa meaning they represent themselves essentially Or they are able to hire an attorney or the judge can appoint an attorney in cases Where the judge deems that is necessary? All of these things currently exist In washington dc. We've actually set up whole nonprofits of lawyers that do nothing but second look cases um But part of the reason we set up our second look legal network is to ensure that when we pass these bills The legal representation is there through one of those various sources Okay um Alex just so you know um susana davis put into the chat um Which states are those that give representation from the application stage? So, uh, the state of new hampshire's bill. Um Their public defenders asked for representation to represent from the application stage Um, that's actively what they asked for so that's what we wrote Um, and so that's the bill that they're currently considering which is sort of the most aggressive that i've seen In terms of actual representation Most other states can be adopted by the defender services after people apply hire an attorney go pro bono or do prosa Um, and that's how most states read but in a lot of states the defender services is very frequently so nonexistent That they couldn't possibly take it on even if they had wanted to Well, okay, rebecca. You've got the last word because we've got 30 seconds Sorry for going over Not a problem rebecca We can't hear you Got it. I just unmuted. Thank you. Thanks for letting me out the last word Alex for shawna. Thank you so much. I'm gonna I'm joining everyone else's appreciation for for your insight I think at this stage the question is what's next? as as sort of the chair the subcommittee on second look, um, I know that others have expressed we just got A link to the proposed language here tonight. I wonder if it makes sense for Um For the committee to meet or maybe members here tonight you have follow-up questions Uh to for this language to to send them in. Um, Alex for shawna. Do you have any? In terms of your availability for us to reach back to you with um further thoughts questions Um Can you just confirm? Yes, I mean I knew I threw a lot of information at you and um, there's a lot to get into the weeds on on this bill, but Like I said, this is a bill That serves as sort of best in show of everything we know from across the country when it comes to Resentencing of how we're really going to take carceral numbers down. So I'm available for questions I will be putting together more research for vermont, which I will share I'm always available by email or phone And I'm happy to return either to this meeting or a subcommittee meeting or to one-on-one meetings as people need I will throw my email in the chat Oh, yay So feel free to reach out with questions and this is my cell phone number If you need to get ahold of me quickly Great Alex, thank you so much. Thank you so very very much Thank you so much for allowing me to comment for potentially, um, you know, adopting A bill like this For for your state and and for the fact that you guys are just doing so much in general to address All of these types of concerns Great. Thank you Just want to give my thank you too. I'm so sorry. I had to go off video my zoom started to act up Thank you so much everybody for all your questions and the conversation tonight. It was really amazing to be with you all Great Okay, um, just to round things out. Um, again, I would echo everybody else. Thank you all for all of this um Is there any new business that anyone needs to bring up now? Or are we all sort of sitting and cogitating? I'm I'm sorry to drag this out, but I do have the numbers for the Reports the community safety reviews Oh, okay. Go ahead. Maybe I can just give them and then we can follow up with email on so Brattle borough, which did a research on Like focus studies with marginalized folks and community safety. Um, it's 224 on the Brattle borough union high school did um An SRO research and that's 24 pages um Amherst, Massachusetts did a research on safety and communities and look at Brattle boroughs. That's 68 pages um in Burlington did a Uh review of the police department and that's 172 pages Okay, thank you Judge morrisey, I hope that helps Yes, it did. I mean so that sounds like about 600 pages worth of reading five to 600 Yep. Yeah, so I think that gives us all a sense of the the time commitment that's being requested, right Does everyone need to read all of them where each person could take on one? That's that's up to the subcommittee to decide Yeah, I think that that means that I think there needs to be a meeting of everyone who might be interested in doing lists and at least Have a conversation and an informational session And then go from there and then we can see who's actually going to be able to do this work Uh, I'm interested in helping and um, okay. Yeah, we want to know a little bit more about what's involved But yeah, I'm pretty good at reading reports Excuse me, so witchy you and I should talk soon Yes, um, and please email aton and or me if if you want to help make this happen, right? Okay Thank you Next meeting is valentine's day I'd like the that's just charming to me um 14th of february um Uh, can shall we stop shall we close the meeting? And if so Anton Yes, I'm just going to say if it's between you and my wife I'm probably going to spend it with my wife not not just saying you're not pretty but I'm just saying, you know Just saying It's over. It's over chief. It's just over. So I'm just saying So does anyone want to make a motion here at this moment eight o'clock a little past Yeah, I'll make a motion to end the meeting at eight or five. All right anyone seconding I'll second Can we put in the chat then if there's no discussion about that? Our vote for those of us who? Are in favor of adjourning Okay by mark, um All opposed, please put that in the chat all abstaining The eyes have it see you all in february, but we'll be in touch before then. Thank you so very much