we have looked at John chapter 6 up to verse 46 so now we will continue John chapter 6 verse 47 onwards if we could have one person please read out verses 49 up to verse 57 probably it's a rather large chunk right so maybe we could just read out verses 49 50 51 yeah if someone could read out 49 50 and 51 please I'll read ancestors ate one in the desert but they died 51 I'm the living bread that kept down from heaven if anyone eats this bread will live forever the bread that I will give him is my flesh which I'll give so that the world may live then 59 and then yeah if you could also read 56 and 57 please 56 56 whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood lives in me and I live in him the living father sent me and because of him I live also in the same way whoever eats whoever eats me will live because of me yes thank you yeah now when we read these verses it sounds rather shocking to us but the listeners when they were listening to him they would have understood what he is saying much better because this was terminology that was familiar to them okay because when you talk about eating and drinking they understood what that would mean in their you know cultural context that was a term that was used to absorb something into your very innermost being you eat it you drink it you literally make it a part of what you of who you are so they obviously knew that he's not in any way talking about anything cannibalistic is not talking about anyone eating flesh literally or drinking blood literally they it is a metaphor that was familiar to them they understood that he is saying that you must you know absorb me into your very innermost being you must be willing to accept me into your into the core of who you are so now you know those of us who live in a in more modern times we are not that familiar with this metaphor so when we you know hear someone saying eat my flesh drink my blood we would probably think of it along cannibalistic terms and it would not make any sense to us but for them in their culture that was a metaphor that they were familiar with they clearly understood what Jesus is saying he is saying be open to me to the extent where you're willing to accept me into your innermost being so because of this kind of wrong understanding that we have of these things of these terms in our more modern times it kind of led to a lot of wrong practices there are people who believe that unless they you know have communion before they die they would not be able to get into heaven so they make it a point to see to it that the person receives a wafer and some wine or grape juice just before they die because if they eat his flesh and drink his blood only then will they be able to you know gain eternal life and even for little children they give them the bread and the and the wine thinking that only that little child has that only then you know will eternal life be birthed inside them so it's not really talking about you eating anything material or you drinking anything material which will result in eternal life rather these are symbols that we use to demonstrate something that has taken place at a deeper level we have finished making a commitment to him we have finished inviting him into the innermost part of our being where he has now been made lord and we have submitted to his lordship and now we are just eating the bread and drinking the grape juice in remembrance of this you know commitment that now we have made with him and he has made this covenant with us so we remember what he has you know decided to offer us through his covenant and we remember how we have submitted to him in entering into this covenant so we are just acting out something that has already been done inside our hearts so the just the physical eating of something and the physical drinking of something really cannot lead to any kind of eternal life so it's very very sad that you know when when somebody is dying in the last stages of life and someone goes to them with a piece of wafer and some wine and they think that just by doing that they are absorbing Jesus into them how can that be because it the actual meaning of what Jesus was saying is that you know open yourself up to me right to the core where you're willing to believe in me and invite me into the into your innermost being so that that person never did throughout their lifetime that person was no lying on their death bed now never opened themselves up to the Lord never believed him to that extent never surrendered to him to that extent and now just by eating something material and drinking something liquid they assume that they can absorb Jesus into them that it's not very realistic so here it is not talking about by about the physical process of eating and drinking something to gain eternal life rather it is talking about how you should be willing to take Jesus into your innermost core because that is where what really matters to you resides right there in there you know your deepest ambitions your you know deepest longings the things that you really want to do with your life all of those things are there at your innermost core and you need to trust him and allow him to enter that space and allow him to become Lord over that because then you know then he is Lord over all of your life and then you can say I have truly made a commitment to him I have eaten him I have drunk from him and now I am his because that's the wording that he uses Jesus in verse 56 he says whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood in this sense of you know inviting me into their innermost being whoever does that they remain in me and I in them and because they are remaining in me and I am living in them it says in the next verse you know they will live because of me not just living in the sense of physically being able to breathe and having your heart continue to breathe to beat but also living in the sense of living at a higher level where you are born again where you are you're where a new life has been released into you and you're now living by the power of the Holy Spirit you're now preparing yourself for the next life which God has awaiting for us so all of these realities are being presented to us in a metaphorical sense and these people who are listening to him the Jews they grumble and listen to the way they grumble because it throws light on how they have understood this teaching if someone could read out verses 60 maybe we could just have 60 61 62 if someone could read out please I'll read yes many of his followers had many of his followers had this and said this teaching is too hard who can listen to it 61 without being told Jesus knew that they were grumbling about this so he said to them does this make you want to give up 62 suppose then that you should see the son of man go back to the place where he came before yes so here we have these disciples who have you know been disciples who have been followers of Jesus up to this point now they are saying this is a hard teaching and they are not saying this is a hard teaching because Jesus is saying eat my flesh and drink my blood that is not what is troubling them we get to know what is really troubling them because earlier on we read that already so if someone could just know read once again versus 41 and 42 because that will kind of throw light on what they are grumbling about versus 41 and 42 please the Jews think I'm going about him because he said I am the bread which came down from heaven and then said is not this Jesus the son of Jesus whose father and mother we know how it then that he says I have come down from heaven so they are not finding what Jesus said hard to understand they have understood it very clearly he's not talking about any physical eating of flesh or any physical drinking of blood they have clearly understood what he is saying he is saying that they are supposed to surrender to him from their innermost being and that they are finding very very difficult to accept they are calling it a hard teaching and saying who can accept it you are asking us to surrender to a carpenter's son we know your father and mother we know the town that you're from and now you are saying that we should submit to you to that level to the extent where we place you before bread you know so they are finding that hard to accept not that they have not understood what is being said but rather what they have clearly understood they are finding it difficult to practice it and so finding that they are unable to practice something so difficult many of them walk away at this point and you know they stop following him so they did not stop following him because what he said sounded very strange to them and could not be understood by them but rather they walk away from him because they have clearly understood what he has said and the demand that he is making of them is too great and so they say this is a hard teaching and they choose not to follow him so Jesus you know he says to them this is how he replies to them in verse if we could have someone read out verse 63 please it is the spirit who gives life the the whole of verse 63 it is the spirit who gives life the flesh profits nothing the words that I speak to you are spirit and their life yes we will get into that verse but then we have brother Shay putting up his hand so yeah yeah anything that you would like to say go ahead please yes thank you pastor it's just an observation to make a comment you know what you just told us now many people have preached on those verses wrongly as you pointed out you know many people think or what Jesus was saying was very hard and like you pointed out they feel it's literally saying that we have to eat the flesh of Christ through the communion you know and it gets me worried now you know hearing this it shows it looks like we're far away from the culture of then and then there is tendency for us to interpret scriptures in light of how we see the world now so I don't know I think we may need to know more about the Jewish culture so that you know we can understand things in context because this is really this verses they just explained to us really can throw a lot of people out of balance because for so many years they have believed in a lie not knowing that this is actually what Jesus Christ was saying in the context of the Jewish culture at that time so I think going forward you know it's important that we look really really at scripture and look at the context historically and culturally so that we do not just take it out of context and think that oh this is what the Bible is saying thank you so much for pointing out thank you guys thank you and it comes across so clearly because when the when the Jews begin to grumble they're not grumbling about cannibalism at all they're not grumbling about that they're grumbling about them having to submit to the son of Joseph they find that very very hard so yeah when we look at the overall context and we also have a greater awareness of the writings of that time where these kind of words and phrases would have been used we gain a clearer picture of what was actually being said and how the audience of that time understood it so coming to verse 63 where Jesus says the spirit gives life the flesh counts for nothing the words I have spoken to you they are full of the spirit and life so over here you know Jesus is pointing out that the flesh counts for nothing the physical things the material things that we tend to focus so much on those things count for nothing in the long term they will keep us alive and they will keep us comfortable for maybe a hundred years but beyond that it is the spiritual things which will take us to the next level so he says the flesh counts for nothing it is the spirit who gives life and these words that I'm speaking to you all these words that I'm speaking to you on a daily basis they are full of the spirit and life they can take you beyond these minimum hundred years and take you right into eternity for all the things that God has planned for you so it's such an amazing thought that when a little you know baby is first conceived God is not just planning out of you know 90 years or 100 years for that little child but eternity all of eternity is being planned out for that tiny little baby you know when that little child is conceived so which is why you know when people go ahead with abortion and all of that they're not just terminating you know a little cell or something they're actually terminating a life because at that point of conception God has already planned all of eternity for that particular child so here God says the words that I would Jesus says the words that I'm speaking to you they are full of the spirit and life so he's talking about how the flesh can only take you so far but the spiritual things that he is speaking can take you far longer right into eternity and there's another thing that maybe we could just learn from this particular verse this is not the context in which Jesus is speaking you know what I have explained just now is the correct context but just to you know another thought that we could maybe walk away with from this particular verse if you look over here Jesus is saying the flesh counts for nothing it's like very irrelevant very insignificant so are you a person who is like looking at yourself and thinking you know in the flesh I am so limited I am so unable to do so many things there are others who are so capable you know they flesh the way they have been created the way God has made them they have put so much inside them and they are able to accomplish so much on the other hand I am so untalented so frail and I have nothing and you know God's words can be this to you so and I'm making it very very clear this is not the direct context okay so but this is a learning that we can draw an extra learning that we can draw from these words the flesh you know your flesh your weak flesh with all its limitations Paul's weak flesh which had a thorn in it which was really not up to the job up to the task that flesh counts for nothing what really counts is Jesus words which are full of the spirit and full of life so Paul in all of his weakness with a thorn which was always constantly you know pulling him down he chose to live according to those words of life and that is why his life was full of the spirit and he was full of power and he could accomplish so much so these this verse you know was has been very encouraging for me in my life because except for this one talent that I have of teaching I'm not very good at many other things and so I always thought my the Lord has called me into full-time ministry and I really am not up to the you know mark on so many things and this verse has been such a blessing to me because in spite of all the weaknesses of my flesh my flesh counts for nothing what really counts is the spirit of God who gives life and the words that Jesus has given to us in the word are full of life and full of the spirit if I can hold on to them and absorb them into my being and live based on them rather than looking to the weaknesses of my flesh I can go far beyond my the limitations of my flesh because my flesh counts for nothing his word counts for everything here and in his words there is power and he can help me to be things that I can never be on my own so that was just one encouraging you know learning that I got from this verse but then to repeat once again this is not the actual direct context the direct context of course is clearly what Jesus was saying to the people at that time where he explained that if you just continue thinking about the things of the flesh that will only take you so far but the spirit gives life eternal life so if you believe in the words which I am speaking to you you know you will be carried into eternity because the spirit will carry you into eternity based on your faith which you have placed in my words that would be the immediate context of the passage moving on we could maybe look at yeah there was just one thing that I wanted to very you know seriously touch upon and yeah we have a person who has raised their hand up I'll be your brother if you could please go ahead yes yes but thanks for the check with regards when you talk about the flesh are you referring to the body and the soul component that we have versus the spirit that it can come past the body and the soul just want to confirm that yeah or now over here in this particular verse where Jesus is talking about limited things and eternal things so over here when here this word flesh is being used it I think most probably would be referring to the human body and its limitations so you give it bread and you give it more bread but at the end of it one day your physical body will die but that's the spirit who gives life to your to your human spirit so you will continue to live through eternity because you know he will give you eternal life so over here in this specific verse where this word flesh is being used I'm very sure Jesus is specifically talking about just the human body and its limitations but of course where you have this word being used in different contexts by Paul and in all of the other gospels and all of that so we would always whenever we look at the word we would immediately have to think in what context it is being used so in some places it would probably be referring just to the physical body and its limitations in some places it would be talking about the fallenness of humans and their desire for carnal things rather than the things of God and in other places it would just probably be referring to a weakness so always whenever we come across this word we would have to look at the context in which the word is being used because all this spiritual I know different connotations are brought out in different passages using this one word so yes we would have to be a little careful in how we are interpreting it in different passages right here it is talking only about the physical body and its limitations in the immediate context because Jesus is making a contrast between eternal things and temporary things yeah yeah the thing that I wanted to touch upon do we have time okay yeah yeah we will make time for because this is something that has troubled me a lot you know verse 44 and verse 65 if we could just have someone read out these two verses for us verse 44 and verse 65 No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him and I will raise a map of the last day 65 and he said therefore I have said to you that no one can come to me unless it has been granted to him by my father okay so these verses have been wrongly used by people to say that only some people have been reserved by God elected by God for salvation and all the others you know right from the time they were conceived God had already you know reserved them for damnation for judgment and they have no hope and only with this this is a special lot that God decided are going to be reserved by him for salvation you know this whole idea of limited atonement and unlimited atonement will not get into the theology will not get into the doctrine but the way these two verses have been used is very troubling so all I would just like to say at this particular point of time is you know first Timothy chapter 2 verses 1 to 6 if someone could please read out these verses and you know if we all could really follow what these verses are very very clearly saying and declaring okay so if someone could just read out for us first Timothy chapter 2 verses 1 to 6 first Timothy chapter 2 1 to 6 and Paul writes to Timothy I exhort you therefore that first of all supplications prayers and possessions and giving of thanks be made for all men for kings for all that are in authority that we may need a quiet life and peaceful life in all godliness and honesty for this is good and acceptable in the sight of god our savior who will have all men to be saved as they come onto the knowledge of the truth and for a spike which is the last verse for there is one god and one mediator between god and men the man cries jesus you know and verse 6 oh verse 6 my apologies who gave himself a ransom for all to be testified in you time yes yes thank you so it's made it made so clear over here why are you supposed to be you know making petitions and prayers and intercessions why because for all people including kings including those in authority because it is god's will god's desire that all people should be saved and that is the reason why Jesus gave himself as a ransom for all people so over here it's not saying in you know in in john chapter 6 verses 44 and 65 it is not saying that the father has just reserved some people it makes no sense right it says in first Timothy chapter 2 verse 6 that jesus gave himself as a ransom not for some selected people he gave himself as a ransom for all people so where's the point in saying that after having given himself as a ransom for all people on the cross he decides that some of the people for whom i have given given myself as a ransom no they will not be ransomed it's so of course we cannot really get into that whole doctrine so we will not go there but you know if someone brings up these two scriptures at least you should be able to very clearly you know counteract what they are saying by talking about first Timothy chapter 2 verses 1 to 6 yeah we are really running short of time so let's just very quickly get into john chapter 7 where we have jesus going to the feast we will very briefly touch upon the response of the brothers and how they you know the things that they say to jesus and then after that we will get into the words which jesus speaks at the temple so coming to the brothers and what they have to say maybe if we could read out verses 3 and 4 3 4 5 if someone could read out john chapter 7 3 4 5 his brother therefore said to him depart from here and go into the studio that your disciples also will see the work that you are doing for no one does anything in secret while he himself seeks to be known openly if you do this things show yourself to the world or even his brothers are not doing anything okay so here we have the feast of tabernacles coming up and usually most people would go to the temple you know to celebrate this and so jesus brothers are mocking him and they say you know why are you hiding out here in this little place so if you are really big if you're really great go and you know declare that to the big people to the great people and see whether they will accept what you are saying or not because here in a little town it's very easy to act big and sound big but where go to the big league you know where you have all the big people will they accept you when you say these things to them so in that sense they are mocking him because they feel very sure that you know he would be rejected over there and then he would understand I mean according to them they think that Jesus then would then realize that he's not really big after all so they are rather being very disbelieving and they are mocking him and jesus says to them my time is not yet here so he says I will not go until I get the direct permission from the father to go so he does not go along with his brothers he waits for the Lord to grant him permission to go to the temple and after his brothers have left sometime after that it says in no where is it I think it is in it says he stayed in Galilee right I can't seem to find the verse you know they are the the brothers so he says I will not my time is not yet and then he continues to stay in Galilee and then he probably must have heard from the Lord telling him that now he can leave so it says in verse 10 that he later goes to the feast okay so he does things according to the Lord's timing and then halfway through the festival that is when he receives permission from the father to start openly teaching what he is meant to say and this is how he begins his teaching if we could maybe read out verses 14 15 and 16 yeah someone could read out I'll read yes the festival was the festival was nearly half over when Jesus went to the temple and began teaching the Jewish authorities were greatly surprised and said how does this man know so much when he when he has never had any training Jesus answered what I think is not my own teaching but it comes from God who sent me okay so they are surprised at the depth of his teaching and they say how could this man have done that because you know he has not studied under Gamaliel or he's not studied again under some other very reputed you know Pharisee Pharisee Pharisee leader so he they're kind of wondering from where did he get this much learning and this much knowledge and then Jesus says my teaching is not my own it comes from the one who sent me so everything that Jesus is saying it's actually rooted in the Old Testament because everything that he says he's able to take Old Testament scriptures and use them to back up what he is saying so that is why there was great authority in all that Jesus spoke because he used the Old Testament which the people were familiar with to to back up everything that he was saying they would have understood those scriptures maybe in a very minimal light but now he's expanding their knowledge regarding those verses and saying see these verses didn't just simply mean this but they also had these other connotations this is what these verses actually were saying in their fullness so what the in the Old Testament they the people only had a partial revelation of those verses and now Jesus was taking those verses same Old Testament verses and now he was granting them a fuller revelation regarding those verses so that is why Jesus says in verses 19 if we could maybe read out 19 20 21 I'll read Moses gave you the law didn't he but not me of you but no one of you obeys the law why are you trying to kill me you have a demon in you the cloud answered who is trying to kill you he's answered I performed one miracle and you are all surprised what has ordered you yeah yeah no that should be enough so we will just reflect on that first yeah so Jesus says has not Moses given you the law yet not one of you keeps the law because if they were to really look into the law you know the first five books of Moses they would see evidence over there regarding the Messiah so Jesus is saying you are not keeping the law you're not following what has been said in the law about me moreover there's the law in the law there is a commandment saying not to kill and here you are making preparations to kill me so there's a huge crowd gathered over there with that has come for the feast and now Jesus is standing up in public and talking to all of them and many of the crowd would not be aware of what's happening you know inside this this clash that is going on between the Jewish leaders and Jesus they would be unaware of those details and now very pointedly Jesus brings that out into the open he says because I did a miracle on the Sabbath ever since then you're holding this you know a grudge against me and you're conspiring to kill me and so now these people act all innocent and they said no no no whoever thought of killing you I mean why are you saying that so even though they are trying to cover up their schemes Jesus brings that out he exposes it and he says because of a miracle that I did on the Sabbath you people are now conspiring against me and yeah if we can also read out verses 25 26 and 27 please go ahead verses 25 so the people some of the people of Jerusalem said isn't this the man the authorities are trying to kill look he is talking in public and they are saying nothing against him can it be that they really know that he is the Messiah but when the Messiah comes no one will know where he is from and we all know yeah that should be up to verse 27 yeah thank you all right so over here the people are now beginning to you know discuss among themselves and so some people say you know the leaders are not really taking any action they are grumbling and they're complaining but they're not taking any action against him so maybe he is the Messiah and then someone says but we know where this man is from you know who his parents are you know we know which village he is from but when the Messiah comes no one will know where he is from okay it shows their half-baked knowledge they don't really know enough about the Messiah they don't really know their Old Testament because what does the Old Testament tell it tells very clearly exactly from where the Messiah will come okay so this is a wrong statement it is people who are making this having discussions with just half knowledge in their heads why why can we so clearly say that because when Herod wants to find out where this Messiah this king you know this future king where is he going to come from he goes to the chief priests and the chief priests are able to tell him exactly from where the Messiah will come that would be in our Matthew chapter 2 verses 3 to 6 where from Micah chapter 5 verses 2 and 4 where it's very clearly revealed where the Messiah will come from okay so here in this in this current Bible passage where these people make this grand statement saying no one will know where the Messiah is from that's a very clearly wrong statement they were not aware of the of their Old Testament moving on from there yeah Jesus is saying you do not know him but I know him because I'm from him and he sent me so Jesus is establishing the fact that he is from God and then we come to the main now you know the core of chapter 7 where with a loud voice Jesus begins to declare something and these wordings are very important so if we can have someone read out 37 up to 139 those three verses please on the last day that great day of the feast Jesus didn't cry out saying if anyone thirst let him consume engine he who believes in me as the scripture has said out of his heart will flow rivers of living water that this he spoke concerning the spirit those believing in him would receive for the Holy Spirit was not yet given because Jesus was not yet glorified okay so here we have Jesus declaring and saying anyone who is thirsty let him come to me and drink and he's saying this on the last and greatest day of the feast this last day of the feast I mean commentaries say this would have been the the crowd would have gathered in what's called the court of women okay so that entire place would be lit up with a lot of lamps so it would be a very beautiful site where you have a lot of lights you know all lit up and also on that day water would be poured out on the altar okay in fact every day the water would be poured out on the altar throughout the feast but on this day there would be a special ceremony when all the lights have been lit up and the you know water is again poured out onto the altar it was supposed to be symbolic it was supposed to be a reminder of how in the wilderness God used to provide them with water miraculously and now Jesus is using this occasion to convey something new and he is saying not only did God provide you physical water you know in the in the in the wilderness but now he has sent someone who can give you more than just physical water and you know this is again a very clear connection with a Samaritan woman passage where Jesus is talking about spiritual water and so again over here is you know bringing out a spiritual concept and he says not only was physical water provided to you in the past but now he had the Lord has sent someone who can give you you know spiritual waters and he talks about the reverse of living water that will flow out of anyone who is willing to believe in him and so here we see that talks about rivers of living water and like we saw earlier in the previous class living water literally meant water was like flowing which is alive which is moving so Ling Waters refers to fountains coming out from the underground and so we see that not only does the person who believes in him not only do they receive the spirit but the spirit also flows out of them so it's not just an inward flow that goes on flowing inward but what flows inward also flows out it's not a one-way thing and you know we might you know we would have heard many sermons regarding this if the Lord goes on feeding you again and again and again with his word and you know with the teachings and gives you inspiration and keeps building you up and you don't do anything about it and all it just you know gets contained in you and sits inside you they say that it kind of leads to stagnation on the other hand if whatever you're receiving you're absorbing and you're practicing it flow as well so a person who is a believer has been has been sealed with the Holy Spirit and now the Holy Spirit is like living waters not stagnant water so the Holy Spirit continues to pour into us and we are supposed to absorb that act upon it believe in it and constantly we're supposed to give it out to others so that there is also an outflow and so in fact in sermons if they you know they talk about kumran community we used to live at that time the kumran people were very concerned about maintaining their their holiness and not mingling with the world so they would you know lock themselves up in the wilderness and they would just talk to each other and communicate with each other they would not associate with anyone else especially not with people who are considered sinful and you know host reputations are not very good they would never mingle with anyone they would just talk among themselves and stay out there in the wilderness where they will not come in touch with anything bad or evil so there's only inflow you know they they want to receive from God they want to study the scriptures they want to grow in God but there's no outflow of any kind what they are receiving they're not passing it on to others the the living water is not flowing out to others so what gently preachers says that because you have Holy Spirit inside you and because he is living waters not only should should you be actively receiving and believing and accepting but you should also be giving it out to other people what you are becoming should be so powerful that it can't just stay inside it literally goes out and affects other people they see your life they see your words they see your actions and they are impressed and they do want what you have so living waters is like that it cannot just be contained in it cannot be stamped you know you know pressed down it comes out so they say that that should be a kind of walk which people should have if they have the Holy Spirit living in them yeah okay we are almost out of time if we can maybe look at verses 50 51 52 if someone could read out yeah just a moment I know someone has asked for the scripture reference of Micah that was Micah chapter 4 if I remember Micah chapter 5 Micah chapter 5 verses 2 and 4 and that gets repeated in Matthew chapter 2 verses 3 to 6 yes if we could have someone read out verses 50 51 52 of chapter 7 and look for no prophet has arrived out of Galilee and everyone went to his own house okay so we have the people these Jewish leaders condemning Jesus not accepting you know what he is saying even though he's declaring that he is from God and if people believe in him living waters would flow out of them they would gain eternal life even though he's saying all of these things they are kind of passing judgment upon him and saying that nothing you know nothing of what he says is really true and then Nicodemus steps in and in verse 50 you know he says does our law condemn a man we ought first hearing him to find out what he has been doing so then there they say how can it how can you even be considering this person because he is from Galilee and so just like Nathaniel had earlier said no how can anything really come out of Nazareth in the same way now these people are saying how can any prophet ever come out of Galilee because it has never happened if they say you will find look into it and you will find that a prophet does not come out of Galilee now Nazareth was in located in lower Galilee okay so that's the geographical information so Nazareth is considered very very low and in fact the entire region of Galilee is considered very low and these people who are supposed to be learned are saying why don't you look into it you will find that no prophet has ever come out of Galilee and they are completely wrong because if if they were to look into the Old Testament you know they would see that Jonah in fact comes from lower Galilee okay so we would find that piece of information I think I have I don't want to touch upon this I think what I have in my notes over here is wrong let me clarify and then talk about this because here I have the statement which says that it talks about Jonah coming from Galilee but I would like to confirm that first second Kings 14-25 I know but then why would second Kings be talking about Jonah so let's not get into that at the moment he was a prophet man we could look into it later okay yeah I mean just in case there's an error let's not say something that's I know not confirmed because I have not looked into it so I don't want to get into that yes we have a couple of minutes left everyone wants to okay here we have someone saying that Jonah is from Bethlehem why is Jonah getting discussed in second Kings I mean whoever edited and compiled second Kings under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit did they refer to Prophet Jonah specifically were they talking about a different Jonah I don't know I would actually have not looked into it so I do not want to say anything before looking into it but yeah the chapter 6 and 7 which we have covered anyone wants to ask anything or you know just want to share your views upon these two chapters we have a little time otherwise we'll you know conclude with the word of prayer anyone at all all right let's let's conclude with the word of prayer Todd we just thank you so much for all the things that we could learn from your word today and we pray oh lord that as and when we need it you would bring these things back to our minds to our memory oh lord so that we can apply these things to our situations we pray oh lord that we would be people who are willing to open up our innermost hearts where our deepest longings reside and we would be willing to allow you to be king over even of even all of those things because lord we truly want to believe in you we truly want to surrender to you because we want this eternal life we want to enjoy all that you have in store for us for our future so we pray that you would help us a lot even as we walk with you and we pray that these living waters which you're releasing into us on a daily basis we pray oh lord that it would flow out that lord we would be so much in you we would remain in you to such an extent that we begin to look like you talk like you and those waters cannot be contained inside any longer but would just flow out and influence all people that we come in touch with that we come in contact with oh lord make us that kind of people because really the reason that all of us have signed up for this course and we are attending these classes is because our heart is not just on physical material temporary things we really have a longing for eternal things we really want lives to count even over the next 10,000 years so oh lord we pray that you would help us to to practice these things that we have learned in our everyday lives thank you lord in Jesus name we pray amen thank you so much all of you for listening patiently and also participating thank you amen thank you first thank you thank you


It's DDK and I'm back today with another spark video. Here's how to everybody tune in if you want to subscribe, make sure you subscribe and give me a thumbs up and do not skip those ads. It's May 31st and it's time for us to get to this bag. In this video, I ain't gonna lie. Today was kind of slow, baby. When we came and we got to that dough, either way, go. We ain't complaining, we're maintaining and we're not thanking. I hope you guys enjoyed the video. Also, if you want to chance to win something pretty much, all you have to do is email me at www.gmail.com. Send me a picture so you subscribe to the channel and earn your chance to win. It's time for us to run up these DVDs, let's go. For 1631, we about to pull up and get these funds, let's go. How you doing? What's going on? You're starting to get hotter already, man. How you doing this morning? I'm living, I can't complain. I'm gonna put this right here. As you can put, just put it in here, I'll get it. Right there, wow, take this. Thank you guys, you guys have a good one. Baby, this joint got a little weight to it. We got like four things of protein in there. Either way, it goes. It's time for us to go, baby. We about to get these bands.  Go, go, pack. It's time to do all my shopping every 10 hours, 1.1 miles for 2650. When you give us our money, how do you want to comment below and let me know. We about to get to this dole, let's go. Me and her, baby. Realist, I really won't touch me a million. Don't you be silly?  We made us killin', trappin' that telly. I, I don't know where I'ma go. I don't know where I'ma go. Just like that, we are here, baby. It's an apartment, we gotta go upstairs too, baby. But it's all good, look. We only got this little bag. Either way, go, y'all know we're gonna get to this bag. And this is terrible. You can't even see it. Let me see the last name. Here we go right here. I did it for the last name. Right here, let's go up here. Oh, there's only one step upstairs. Fix that door. There you go. You're welcome. So these two are the small ones? All right. You can sit it right there, I'll put it here. How y'all doin' this morning? I'm doing great. Hopefully it don't get that hot, man. It's been hot, it's been hot right now, but sheesh. It's goin' good, man. Yes, sir. It's gettin' bigger and bigger. You gotta keep on grindin', that's it. Guess what, guys? We're in for a rude awakening, Bacon. Look, wow. As you guys can see, that one has water and some iced tea and it's goin' to apartment on the third floor. Either way, go. We ain't complainin', we maintainin', we about to get to this door, let's go. Order a number of water, seven to the number, eight items, 3.1 miles for 24, fifth. Here, baby. I put the bag on the arm. Now we gotta go up these stairs. It's all up. Close that ditto. Got to do the finger. Yeah. We gotta go up two flights to get bright. The way they do these things, they don't have to, yeah, there's a way, that's fair. That joint might not even work. Oh, that joint's open already. Yeah. Let's go. To be silly, a shot on my white way from Gurney, we made us killin'. It's the bag of them clothes. Mac. We gone. We are here, baby. Tell me, get busy. I gotta kinda get my armor. That's what I'm talkin' about, baby. Got it right there. They just called me one trip, bro. We about to get it on. I'm talkin' about, put this in the hand right here. Bam, kinda get these bands right here. Put this on the arm. Let's go, baby. We gotta walk kinda slow, baby, cause you already know, baby. We got a lot in the hands to get these bands.  I'm a cold, I can throw them a little bit.  Don't y'all know about the old juvenile? Tell me below and let me know if you know. Doorbell. I'm gonna do it all. Let this out, man. Put this down here. Time for us to get busy. It's not that much room right here on this porch, so you might have to put some stuff on the stairs. But I don't wanna make sure I don't, I wanna make sure I don't block the door. You know what's wrong? What time is it? Come below and let me know. Hit him with the photo. Smack! Let's go. All the numbers for 29, 46, you know we about to get in the mix then. Somebody sparked us some incentives, baby.  It's that thing's warm up we about to pull up to right now. And we already completed two trips. So when we complete this one, we're gonna get an extra $15. We popping our collar. We gonna be at the Ramada Inn, get it in. And I hope you guys enjoyed the video. Make sure you smash that subscribe button. Give me a thumbs up and do not skip those ads. We gonna continue to get to this bag. Let's go. What's up, bro? I take the order. Then I put a start trip. So it's told you that I was here already? Yeah. So it says delivery driver stay six minutes away and then once you get here, it says I arrived and I think you've been waiting for it. Okay, so y'all do know. Cause sometimes, which one is- For actually, does this one carry it with me? Okay, I'll put this one in the car. Oh, so it tells you how far we are. That's good. That's how you knew to come out already. Yeah, I ain't know that part. See, I try to find out all the information so I know what's going on, you know? Order number six. I'm paying for the money, Mitch.  What my shopping number? 27 hours, 4.1 miles for 2950. We about to move kind of safety. Let's go. Like that. We are here, baby. Me and Nick Clear. These are the apartments that I can't stand, baby, because the setup is so crazy. It's just like it doesn't even make any sense how they have everything set up. Like the back door in the front door is just so, it's hard to explain. You'll have to see it, see what I'm saying. But either way, go, we about to get these bins. You understand, man? And they said bring it up to the apartment. So they said park over here and come up. What's the number? I don't know, it's three something. I think it's gonna be 302.  What is it? Yeah, 302, I'm right. Right. Oh, there's a lot of stairs too, guys. Look at my extra signs there, two carnival. I work out. Hey, how you doing, assie? I'm here with your Walmart order.  It's 302, correct? Alrighty. Yes. Oh, here we go. Alrighty, I'm on my way up. Time it is, baby. We here to drop off order number two for get you on your crew. The bag got stuck on that kitty litter, I'm one trip home, we about to get it on. I'm gonna try to get it on. I ain't gonna try, we gonna do it. I spit that out to throw it. Let's go. I parked too close to these bushes, but it's all good, baby. We gonna keep on moving and growing. We getting to this one, it's kinda single. Drop it like a side, ring the doorbell. Don't give me, dawg, I don't want any problems. I don't have no problems. I don't get that many, that many things. That many things. Maybe I don't have to do something like that, baby. Step back at him with a photo of your noodles. Man. Order number seven, thank God for his blessings. Order 7.9 miles for 17.08. We about to run off this cake, let's go. Great, it's starting to get a little warm now, but you know, it'll be all right. Is this for Anaya? Nope. Nope. Ayala, I mean. Nope, wrong one. Maybe it's her or this other person right here. I was in number one. Yeah, you're in number one. Yeah. Yeah, this one right here? Yeah, I should do this. Yeah, they didn't even say the name, they put the wrong name on mine. Yeah, usually it's the last name of that man. Oh, okay. Yeah, because it turns like the first name. Oh, you can help her. She need help? Yeah, I'm waiting. Oh, okay. You can help. I can do this, no problem. All right, thank you. You didn't get that red, most of them look right. Right, right. They're doing the right. Go, go, go. They just want to come our hand get busy. They got good slippers out here, baby. Couple of likes hot, couple of likes hot, couple of likes hot.  Maybe I could put some spoons and stuff in there. Wash your shoulder, spoon with force. Getting money as ours for. Step back, put them in the front of your arm, it'll just smack, let's go. And just like that, it is the end of the video. We made 209, 68, We came and we got to that cake. Look at the time. It's 10.24 and we got to that dough. I ain't gonna know. It's kinda slow. I'm telling y'all, that's true, baby. It was the greatest of days. Me the way it go. We got paid and we might put up in a new escalade. I hope you guys enjoyed the video. Also, if you want a chance to wear some of the free merch. This is the last week, baby. You want to make sure you email me at www.RomeSocietyGmail.com. Subscribe to the channel and earn your chance to win. Today we got some dividends. I'll see you guys on the next one. Be going, be going, be flowing. You already know this, DDK. And I'm on my way.


Welcome everyone. So as this is a birds of a feather session, feel free to open up your camera, open up your microphone if you want to chime in. It's really an informal session. So I'm here only to facilitate, make sure that we're all adhering to the code of conduct. But this is a session for you as much as for everyone. So feel free to take part. I prepared a few things to kick off the conversation. But if you have ever been to a birds of a feather, really it's free for all. Because we are at the official starting time, I'm just going to let you know what I prepared. I have a couple of slides about the challenges that we are facing with metrics about open source projects, open source communities. I have a few things about how the chaos project is addressing these challenges and what we can learn from the chaos project. And then I have a section for open conversations and to talk about lessons learned. The lessons that we learned through the chaos project that I learned through my PhD, researching open source community health, but also your experiences. So this is why we are in an open Zoom call where we can all chime in and talk and share what we have to share. A little background to me for those who might not know me yet, I'm Georg Link. I'm originally from Germany. So it was very great, very good to see that we have some from Germany dialing in today. And I work at Biturgia, a company that provides metrics analytics about open source projects about software development projects. And I came to Biturgia because I was very involved in the chaos project. And chaos is short for community health analytics, open source software where we want to understand the health of open source communities and built a network of people who are interested in this topic and how to be used metrics to understand community health. So metrics around open source communities and the health of projects is something that I've been working with for quite a while. So thank you for joining the session today. When we talk about metrics, it is on the one hand, we're talking about the method of measuring something. And on the other hand, we're talking about the outcome, the results that we get. And so when we look at open source communities, they have project data. A lot of this data is automatically generated just because we are working in the open, we're developing in the open. All of those interactions produce footsteps or trace data that we can analyze, the Git log, the mailing list archive, the chat history on IRC. So those are the trace data, which we need some way of getting insights from. And that's where the method comes in. We can also produce our own data. If you wanted more qualitative data, we can run surveys or interviews or sometimes we don't have the data that we want. And so we have to figure out how to get it. But then we have the methods. So once we have the data, we have the method to get the insights. And in my analogy here, we're going from a cloudy day to a sunny day where the clouds clear up and we can see. So that's when I think of metrics, really what we're talking about, what I'm talking about. And I'm gonna pause throughout this session because it's a personal feather session, you're all welcome to chime in. If you want to open your microphone and add something, feel free to do so at any time. You can also raise your hand or write in the chat if you want to add something. I'll have an eye on that and make time for you. So if you wanna understand how our open source communities are doing, how the project is developing, evolving, there's several challenges that we all are facing. And those challenges, I grouped them in legal and ethical challenges, organizational challenges and technology challenges. When we talk about the legal and ethical challenges, this is where we think about laws like the European General Data Protection Regulation GDPR where the European Union has given all EU citizens autonomy over their data, which the question often is in open source. If someone participates in open source project and they're giving away their data and they know it will be publicly visible, are there any concerns with analyzing that data and would you become a data controller by the GDPR law? Which says that if you analyze the data, then you need to let the data subjects are open source community members who are whose names or email address or contributions we're analyzing. You have to let them know they need to be able to opt out. We also have data privacy issues or questions. Is it fair to expose someone? How do we do this? Are we letting everyone know that they can opt into the analysis or do we go the opposite way? And we say, hey, analyzing the open source community and project is good for the community. We do this and it's expected by the members that this is something we would be doing, but we still give away for someone to opt out. So those are legal ethical challenges. And I'm gonna pause here for a second to see if anyone wants to chime in. Again, this is a Birds of Feather session. Thank you for everyone who is here. If you joined late, also welcome. As a Birds of Feather session, we are all welcome to talk and have a dialogue. That's why we are in Zoom today, not in the main conference platform. So in the chaos project where we develop metrics for you to choose from, if you want to analyze open source projects, we recognize that these legal ethical challenges, we can give some opinions on them, but we cannot solve it specifically for you because it depends on what data you're analyzing, it depends on who's in the community, what, where you're located. So there are different laws that we need to pay attention to. Moving on to organizational challenges. When you start analyzing open source projects and you find a good tool that does that, which I have some recommendations later, then it's often like opening a fire hose, a fire hose of data. And unless you have a specific question you're trying to answer or strategy for how to analyze the data and derive meaning from it, you'll be overwhelmed. And so the challenge is what is our strategy? What do we actually want to do with the open source project, with the community? And how can we use the metrics to make meaningful decisions, to check whether we are on track and get actionable insights. If we start having data and metrics about open source communities, our communities are often very opinionated themselves and they want to be in charge or they want to be asked before we do something. So giving information to the community before creating a dashboard, a community dashboard or something is a generally good idea. We also have technological challenges. And again, feel free to jump in at any time if you want to add something, if you have an idea and you have an example that you want to bring in, please do just, you can, let me know that you want to speak or you can just unmute yourself and let me know as well. So technological challenges. One is we have to actually get the data. The data in open source project is as diverse as the different tools that we use. We have mailing lists, we have a repository on GitHub or GitLab or we hosted ourselves. We have an issue tracker, a forum, a wiki, an instant messaging service. Open source communities are all very diverse, no two communities look alike. And even if we say we all use a mailing list, which there are many communities that don't do that anymore, but even if we say we have a mailing list, there are different versions, different providers. And so getting the quality data is something that we all need to get through because we need to collect the data that we're interested in. And we have some solutions for that in the KS project. Again, I'll talk about the tools here in a little bit. Another challenge is managing identities. So one reason we might be interested in having data about our communities is because we want to give active contributors a vote at the upcoming board elections or it's something that I've seen. And being able to say, hey, this person, XYZ is the same person as YZX is really helpful just because they use work email and personal email or because they have a different username on GitHub than they have on Twitter. Being able to say, hey, this is actually the same person is really valuable because then you can see the whole picture of what they're contributing to our open source community. And then it's not just about collecting quality data, always keeping up with API changes and managing the quality of the data we have but our contributors, the identities merging. But we also need to have a way of reporting on that data and visualizing that, having dashboards, running regular reports. So maybe we have people that we need to report to, maybe we have managers that care about, hey, how is our community doing? So being able to take the raw data and make it into something meaningful. Now there are some super experts that just look at open source communities and they can tell you, hey, it's going really well. Here are the things that you can improve. But for the most part, if you're normal like me then it's really hard to do that. And this is where together we can be better, stronger, faster. And this is the second part where I have some things to share about the chaos community. And again, if this is a birds of feather, I saw new people join in. You're welcome to speak up. If you have something to share, this is a very, very open format. I just have some slides to share some thoughts that I've had and unlike being in a room where I can stare at you and ask you, hey, do you have something to add? I'm really inviting you to speak up. There's a session for all of us. So if you have any questions or thoughts or examples, let me know. So together, better, stronger, faster. This is what we're doing with the chaos community. And so going through these, let's say together is the chaos community. We've started about three years ago at the Linux Foundation. There's a metrics community that is older, but we've started at the Linux Foundation three years ago. With the goal of bringing together industry, academics, I was earning my PhD at the time. Toolmakers like Biturgia, where I work now. The practitioners, open source foundations, community members, like yourself. And we want to understand, okay, what is community health and how do we understand that through metrics, building out tools that we can use. So that's what we set out to do. And now we're becoming better. We are developing chaos practices. We're talking about how to be actually analyze communities. How do we use the metrics to scale up the work we do? How do we reduce bias in our decision-making? How do we manage our communities, our engagement with these communities through the data that we are collecting? How do we support decision-making? These are all things that we are talking about in the chaos community. And having this community of practice is really helpful. And we produce blog posts, we produce all kinds of things to share this. One thing that we are producing or creating in the chaos community are metrics. And this is where we become stronger because we are starting to have a unified language about how we are measuring our open source communities and projects. We are becoming stronger because we can use the metrics that others have already vetted and said, hey, this is how you collect the data. This is how you analyze it. Here are some thoughts on what this means. In chaos, if you go to chaos.community slash metrics, we have a list of almost 50 metrics now. And every year we keep adding more. And the way we have organized the work in the chaos communities and working groups, because different people care about different things and measuring different things, we have working groups, one is on diversity and inclusion. One working group is on risk. One working group is on evolution. You see the trend here, value and common are other working groups. And each one of them is defining metrics that they care about. So code changes here, the example I have on the screen is in the evolution working group. And code changes is our work for commit. We just chose a more neutral term, code changes. So there's a buffet of metrics that you can choose from. If you want, we can do a deep dive into the metrics. I'm just listing this here as an option of thing, something we can talk about. We also have going to faster, so together better, stronger, faster. If you want to start analyzing an open source community or project, we have some software that you can start using. And the software already solves many of the technical challenges we talked about. We collect data from many different data sources. We can present that data. We can manage identities. The Grimoire Lab project, which you see here at the top right, is being used by big Fortune 500 companies to understand their open source engagements and projects. Augur is something, is a tool that is developed by the University of Missouri as a playground where we try out new metrics and some of you on this call might have already played with this as well and found it to be useful to run queries against the data. So Grimoire Lab and Augur are the two big tools that we have in chaos that you can just start collecting data with, but they're very different philosophies. So something we can also talk about if you're interested. The G with the looking glass, that's short for, oh, that's the tool Kregat, and it's used for the kernel report and to understand basically like Git blame, who made changes to the source code, but not at the line level. With Git blame, you only see who edited the line. With Kregat, you actually can see who added this variable or who last edited this function name, which might be helpful to know who you can ask about it. So in the chaos community, we can together get better, stronger, faster in having metrics and analytics and understanding open source communities. Now is the part where I would really like to hear from you all about what have you done with metrics so far? What have you learned? I have a few more slides to spark ideas or thoughts, but if you have something you want to share with others or if you have questions, hey, this is an open format. Maybe there's someone on the call who has some ideas for you. Maybe this is one speaking. One thing I was wondering when I hear about community health is here a common understanding, at least within chaos, what the healthy project at least is. I mean, some projects maybe might be healthy if they change all the time. Some projects might be healthy if they don't change at all. So take this metric, for example. And that is something we are talking about in the community as well, that some projects are growing, some are, it's very stable and some are even declining, as you said, very stable. The definition that I like the most is to say a community has the potential to continue developing quality software because you're putting the focus on quality software, the output, but you're also putting focus on the community that it can establish that. And that's the definition that I like the most, that I'm using in my own work. Does that resonate with you, Swin? In a way, I mean, this is really pretty resultful. So, I mean, when looking at your work, you could also think about other parameters like what the people who are involved, it's maybe also interesting aspect, but I like the aspect that it's just for the result. I mean, this again comes with the question, what is actually quality software? It might have also some different layers and dimensions, but... Absolutely. And I don't have to be the only one who is answering here. So, if anyone wants to chime in and reply to Sven's question, how do you define community health? And some communities are not producing software. I know there are many open source communities that are not producing software. So, the output might be something different and or you really just have a community that is getting together. And so, the focus of your definition should be on other people getting out of the community what they want to get out of it. And is it a good experience to be part of the community? So, Bryce asked the question in the chat, how is improper data identified and managed? And Bryce, could you clarify for us, what do you mean by improper data? And do you maybe have an example in mind? No, I don't. Maybe Bryce, if you could add that in the chat or speak up, you're muted right now. Okay, so Bryce said, I apologize. I have to say I'm rather ignorant, but I imagine someone with not the best of intentions might have access and alter. So, the thoughts that come to mind listening to or reading your question is when we have open source communities, the data is often public to begin with. And there are some shady characters who do analyze the data and extract it from. One example is get everyone's email address and start direct marketing to the developers in the project. And that is something that is improper. It's unethical, but I don't know if you're talking about that kind of analysis or that kind of data use. So, if you have something else to add, please add it to the chat. I'm, oh, no worries, Bryce. I appreciate that you asked the question. I'm just trying to figure out how best to answer that. And maybe I'm just not quite understanding either. One thing that we talk about in the Chaos community is that we have different reasons for having metrics and different points in time when we want to understand what is happening in our communities and our projects. So, here on the left, you see a dashboard. When you're driving a car, you just wanna see it, how fast am I going? And do I need to apply the brake or the gas to get up or down to the speed limit? Do I need to fill up the tank again? How am I doing on gas? So, there are some things you need on a day-to-day operation spaces as you're working in open-source communities or projects that you just, the quick glance, easy to understand metric. But sometimes your car breaks down. You have smoke coming out, everything stalls, you pull over, or you just have a regular maintenance check once per year and you go to a mechanic who has the vehicle inspection report that he fills up and there are many different metrics. How are the brakes doing? How is the shocks? How are the tires? And so taking a deeper look at the car. And we can do the same thing for our open-source projects and communities where we can look at the data on a day-to-day or week-to-week basis, how are we doing? Are we growing? Is there anything that we should be paying attention to? But then occasionally we do some stepping back and think about, hey, what's our overall strategy? Are we engaging the people that we want to engage? Is there any bottlenecks that we should be focusing on? And that's when reports come in. So again, I'm opening this up. Do you have any experience with dashboard metrics or report metrics? I don't wanna call on anyone specific. I'm just opening up the floor if you have something you would like to add here. So another thing that we hear or I hear a lot in the chaos community is that people would like a baseline. Being able to say, hey, we're doing better than last year. And for that, we actually need to know how did we do last year? So we need to start collecting data early and have it ready for when we do want to use it. So part of it is to listen. And when you start the metric journey, just start collecting everything that you can. You don't know what you will use in the end, but at least you have it. Now, this is to start. You cannot always look at all the data. That's where strategy comes in, which I'll talk about next. But you want to have that baseline. Or sometimes you're not using your own history as the baseline. Sometimes you want to compare yourself to other projects. Like here in the screenshot, I compared the two chaos projects, Augur and Grimoire Lab. And I was very surprised to see that they evolve about the same, even though they have completely different development teams and there's very little overlap in the contributors. And what I think, well, I don't actually know what is happening, but I know that during Google Summer of Code, there's a lot more outside contributions or from outside the community. So I think that those are the spikes or some of the spikes. If you want to start getting visualizations like this, I can recommend, check out coldrin.io. It's a service that builds on top of the chaos Grimoire Lab technology, but you can just go to coldrin.io, put in the repositories, GitHub repositories or GitHub repositories that you want to analyze and you get information and you can compare projects, you can get metrics on multiple repositories, combine them into one project. A really useful tool. So collect everything, start listening to your community, have the metrics ready for when you do want to use the analysis. And also some metrics you can go back in history like the Git log, you have the full history that you can analyze. Other metrics, if you're interested in how your number of stars on GitHub evolves, there you have a two week time window to collect the data through the GitHub API. And so you cannot get the history of that beyond or further back through the API.  Again, I'm opening this up. Is there any thoughts, comments, concerns, questions? So in addition to collecting all the data, we actually need to know what we're looking for. We need to know what the needle is we're looking for in the Haystack. And in the KS project, we are proposing or advocating for using the goal question metric approach. So you start with your goals. What do you actually want to do? Let's say we want to grow contributors. Then we have some questions for how we're doing. How many new contributors did we have last month? How many active contributors do we have right now? And once we have those questions, we can figure out what data can answer those questions. So if you want to grow the contributors, our goal, you want to know how many question, how many new contributors we have, that's the question. Then we can use a metric of number of new contributors for that last month. Or for how many active contributors do we have, we can have a metric, number of active contributors. So going through the goal question metric approach gives us not just what metrics should be focused on, but also a rationale for why we look at it. And we can start to tell the story. Hey, number of new contributors is this and we are growing our contributors. Here's how we are creating value. Here's how we are having an impact. We need to start telling these stories that are larger than the individual numbers, the individual metrics. Any thoughts on metric strategy? Another thing that is interesting to look at is collaboration patterns. And here this network diagram shows our chaos community. The blue bars are repositories. If I were to zoom in in the dashboard, which you can find on chaos.biturge.io, you could actually read the label names, the repository names. And then the dots are individual contributors. The larger dots means contributors who have more commits, small dots have fewer commits. And then we draw lines between the people, the dots and the blue bars, the repositories, if a person made a commit to a specific repository. And so we can see here in the middle, we have one repository that has a lot of people who do contribute to it. And that is our governance repository. On the right, we have a cluster of a few very active contributors with a lot of repositories around them. And then outside of contributors. And that's that cluster on the right, that is our Grimoire Lab project. And the people in the middle are the Biturge employees, the company that is the main steward and maintainer of the project. So you can see, I can start to tell a story with this visualization, with this way the data is presented. And then Augur is the repository at the bottom. There's Augur being at the university, they often ask students in classes to make contributions as part of their learning experience. So we sometimes see spikes of activity because students have their assignments to. So collaboration patterns is for one, what is the map of our community? Where do people contribute to? How active are they in different parts? Collaboration patterns is also when are we contributing? Is it during work hours? Is it during weekends? Gives us an idea for what kind of community are we looking at? Is it professionals who work as part of their job on this project? Or is it volunteers working outside their regular work hours? Or what time zones are contributing? Where are the people located? Are we all in the European time zones? Are we all in Dublin? Or are we spread out? Some from India, some from North America, some from Asia. Time zone is a good or a somewhat acceptable proxy to geographic location, although we don't get the whole North versus South difference. But we get an idea for how globally distributed is our community. And I'm pausing again to see if anyone wants to chime in. Ah, Christopher messaged in the chat. Hi, Georg. I'm completely new to this field and in fact misunderstood the meaning of the title of the session. I took the term health literally as I'm interested in the social application of open source. But maybe that doesn't matter too much. Talking of stories, there is a task demystifying metrics and data to the lay people. So there are two things that you said here and thank you very much for making that comment. Health, we're not talking about medical health or the health of people here. We're talking about the community health. So how well are, how well is the community doing? And when I heard health the first time, I also only had the medical health in mind. Maybe that's because I was from Germany originally and so English was my second language. And I've not heard health being used for the health of a system, the health of a machine or health of a car or whatever. So yeah, there are different uses. And open source is being used quite a bit for, so I'm totally going off on attention. And Christopher, if you want to open up your microphone and say something, please do so. You can also stop me. There, open source. Go ahead, I see you unmuted yourself. No, no, go ahead, Georg. I just wanted to be polite. Carry on, finish your point please. Oh, I was just going to say that there are many open source projects in the medical health field. Libera Health, GNU Health are just two projects that come to mind. So yeah, that was the only thing I wanted to say here. Okay. But I, yeah, I mean, as I said, this is a first time experience for me, but I'm fascinated by what seems to be a really different mentality that perhaps is just part of open source thinking. But as a newcomer, I'm just stunned really by its, I don't know, it's potential and how different it is from the way, standard ways of thinking that the rest of us exist in. And yet, it does have applications at whatever level you're working on. And it seems so important for evolution as a planet. But yeah, so I'm grateful to all of you, but I'm also interested in how you set about, I mean, other than having an open door, how you set about sort of, yeah, telling the narrative of what you're offering to people that don't speak to you, but I'm also interested in how you set about, offering to people that don't speak your language or stop waffling. Well, thank you. And before I take the air out of the room, I'm gonna pause and see if anyone else has some thoughts and wants to reply. So as a facilitator, I need to be very comfortable with silence. But yeah, so no, it's a really great reminder that the way open source works and this collaborative first approach that we have developed in the open source projects and communities is something quite to cherish with a lot of potential. So yeah, the thing that this Birds of Feather is about is how do we understand this collaboration, this way of working together through metrics and how do we help to enhance it, take it to the next level and identify where the collaboration breaks down. Where we're losing out on the opportunities that we would have. One thing that you said, sorry, I didn't mean to interrupt you. No, no, no, go ahead. One thing that you said was, we need to tell the story of what we're doing to others who are not familiar with our work. And this is true for talking about how we, as a community, are doing about the health and the metrics. But it's also true about the work that we're doing on the software or whatever we are producing as a community and talking with the users. And this is where marketing, we can learn a lot from marketing because marketing as a profession is concerned with how do you take what you have and talk about it and involve others who are not familiar with it before who use different language, identifying what words they use. So those are things that come to mind from listening to what you said. Yeah, that's interesting. It puts marketing, which can seem quite aggressive into a different light. It's nice to think of it as a way of breaking the ice, which we probably all want to do. Yeah, as you said, marketing, we often associate with the spam that we get and the letters in the mailbox and the billboards, but that's just one form of communication. When I studied marketing, which I didn't study, study marketing. It's marketing, marketing, marketing, marketing, marketing, which I didn't study, study marketing. Marketing was part of my education. The emphasis was really about communicating. Marketing is the department in a company that works on the messaging, the communication. Yeah. So one, so moving forward, I'm happy to talk more about this, but I can also go on. I have one quick thing to add. Yeah, Don. Getting back to the comment earlier about storytelling, I think the interpretation of metrics is really important. I'm part of the chaos project. I'm a big fan of data and metrics, but it really only tells part of the story. What looks good for one project isn't necessarily good for another. And I think that there's a lot, a lot that's left for interpretation. And I think that interpretation and being able to explain the data, I think it's really important. It's an important part of thinking about project health. Yeah. Thank you, Don. Another thing to consider is avoid gaming of metrics. So if you're having metrics focused on. People and they can do certain actions to raise on a leaderboard, which maybe you recognize the image that I have here on the left. It's from our current conference. Then you get that behavior. You get what you measure. And. With the, we saw this recently or just this month with October fest, where the measurement was. Pull requests created. It was not about the quality. And so there was a big outcry at the beginning of this month. Because a lot of people started creating pull requests that were. Not that they were taking a lot of time from maintainers, but didn't add anything to the projects. If you have been following Twitter and other conversations, you would have heard about that. So. I think. Hector or fast actually changed the rules. To accommodate that. But you get the same thing in your communities. If you value. Commits over other types of contributions, then. People will start to find ways to get more commits, but it gets fixed. So just be mindful about what you do with the data. And how you reward. If there's any reward. Community members. Based on that data. So those are the things that. I had brought as. A seat. To the discussion. I want to leave you with some resources.  I have one, one more slide if you wanted to connect with me. Feel free to reach out. You can find me on Twitter and LinkedIn. You can email me. But really this is. What I wanted to give to you. And. We have a podcast where we talk about. Specific use cases experiences with metrics and measuring and community health. We have the metrics. The software. And you're also welcome to join. We have regular meetings. We have the different working groups. You have a mailing list. If you go to chaos.community slash participate. You can find a community that is talking about. Metrics and. Participating and. Don. Already. Said she was there. Which I really enjoy. Always when we are on the same zoom calls. Talking about metrics. So this my invitation to you. And. Again, opening this up. What thoughts, what questions do you have? I don't actually know how much time we have left. This again, Sven speaking. I'm still trying to grasp. What, what just covered by chaos and what is maybe not. So one thing. Or what I really like is when you were talking about this dashboard and made this. Example with the car and maybe also cut the car test. For cars. I think it's pretty easy to have a checklist of things that you want to take that type pressure. And then you're like, okay, the car is healthy or working. That you have something like those checkers for open source projects or is it impossible from your perspective. To do something like that. That's an excellent question. And ever since we started chaos as our. Community of practice where we talk about these things. The. We've been asked, hey, just give us the. The five things that we should be measuring. And tell us whether it's in a good range or not. And the. We cannot have these. Here's what a good project looks like. Here's what a. Problematic. Project looks like. Because every community. Works different and is different. And so you really need a domain expert, someone who is in the community who can say, yes, the numbers are how they are because we work in this way. So just because projects use GitHub. And they share that technology. They have different ways that they're using GitHub. Some make it very clear that you need to. Link pull requests to issues. Others are more loose about that. Where you don't need an issue. To create a pull request. Or some use. Don't even use the issue tracker in GitHub. They use the issue tracker over in. Jira. So what we can have is a checklist. Of saying, hey, you want to. Make sure your community is doing well. So you look at the activity metrics. We can't help you. Say you have 500 commits that's good or bad, but we can say, hey, number of commits is something to look at. And if there's a change in your number of commits, that is something, you know, you need to understand as a community is that. Why is that happening? And tell the story. Interpret that. So you want to look at the community. And then you want to look at the community. And then the dynamic research shows that. Code quality. Can be a sign of community health. Resources. Do we have financial support? Do we have all the tools and. Necessary. Diversity and inclusion. If you're talking about how welcoming and inclusive to people field. Are they enjoying being part of the community? Are we welcoming new people in? Are we welcoming new people in the community? Are we welcoming new people in the community? Are we welcoming new people in the community? Not our most people don't stay forever in the community. What's our bus factor? Do we have too. Few people who carry the bulk of the work. So that we do have these questions. And if you go to the chaos. Metrics. You can see them. And we are building out more and more of those. So how do you get the difference of what chaos does. And what. Does not do this. It really leads me in the right direction. I mean, there's a lot of work. Some work on. Those issues also on how to build those communities like social architecture. So it's something I would think of. So. I feel it's something in that direction. Maybe back on off my question was. I had situations where. I was thinking of new. Of open source projects or maybe starting. Projects. Then a manager would ask me, okay, why is it successful? And so the question is, okay, what is actually success. Tell me what you consider success. And I can tell you why it will be successful. And. I feel. Some are goes in the direction of community has as well. Because maybe sometimes you. There's a situation where you really want only two or three people working on the project. Or. It's. Maybe the best solution. Sometimes it's not. So. Yes. Absolutely. That's where the goal question metric approach comes in. You define what does success mean to you or your manager. And then you figure out how do we. Show that. Oh, thank you, Don, for sharing the link in the. Chat. Well, we are. Out of time. I really appreciate you all coming. To this birds of feather and. Having a conversation about how we understand community health. And how we use metrics. Again, if you were. Well, if you're interested in keeping this conversation going, join us in the chaos project. Feel free to reach out. If you have questions to me. And I wish you all a good rest of your open source summit. Europe conference. Thanks for facilitating. Thanks, Don. Thank you. Bye bye. Thanks. Bye bye. Thanks. Thank you. Christopher. Take care. Bye bye. Bye bye. Bye bye. Thanks. Thank you. Christopher. Take care.