Okay, great. Well, I'll let a few more people trickle in that I will get started with introductions. Normally, I would share my screen to put up our nice flashy logo and things but my internet connection is a little less than ideal so I think I will skip from that but I will still give the explanation of what we are and who we are and what we hope to have at this meeting tonight. So, this is the June meeting of the Ward 5 neighborhood planning assembly and PA. Thank you all so so much for coming out to this meeting this we're hoping is going to be a special meeting hopefully that we can continue the spirit of on and future meetings of really getting good public participation and discussion going about the issue that matters for our community with tonight being sort of what's the future of the south end going to look like. So, just to explain a little bit about what the NPA is and what our guiding principles are. So we are a safe space, we provide a safe and welcoming forum, we are accessible, we cultivate involvement by a diverse spectrum of community members and we try to minimize barriers participation. And right now that's manifested through this hybrid approach that we're doing which is fantastic to see that we've got a great turnout in person and then we also have great turnout online. We are respectful, we are inclusive culturally and economically aware. We vital or at least we aspire to be vital aspire to be a fun and creative organization. We value varied perspectives. And these last two are probably the most important we value varied perspectives and we are non partisan we do not engage in endorsement of political candidates we look to be a community space for discussion and I'm thrilled to see the number of people we have here tonight that we can have this be a space of lively discussion. For those of you who are participating via zoom, we do use a webinar mode for zoom which may be unfamiliar for some. But the way that works is if you use the raise hand function in zoom, which will be right at the bottom of your screen there. We will. This is when you wish to commute to wish to speak on and again we're hoping to have a really lively discussion tonight so please use that function. When you use the raise hand function me as moderator at the beginning or Andy later on in the meeting will recognize you as your hands are put up and we will then unmute your microphone and you can or you can unmute your microphone and do your video. We would ask, as I love to have done that you introduce yourself before you speak. So with a belated introduction, my name is Billy Clark I use he him pronouns that live on Locust Harris. And I am a member of the ward five steering committee for the NPA. So with that, we will get started. Just want to make sure you all can still hear me pretty well in the room. Just quick thumbs up if it's coming through. Excellent. Great to hear it. So tonight, we have an excellent agenda that I of course I have lost. We begin this meeting with public forum so this we want as a space for anyone in the community to bring up any topic of any interest, and we're going to dedicate some time to that at the top. We are hoping this is going to be a lively discussion on the topic we've selected tonight but if anyone wants to speak on a different topic or anything else. This is the time. Well, hello, thanks. My name is Jeffrey to Santa. I'm at seven Arthur court. This is my first NPA meeting in person, or especially since we moved toward five. So very exciting. My thoughts are that I've heard a lot about a lot of new infrastructure projects going on. So I'd like to know more about what's happening, especially in terms of making Burlington, a little less car dependent instead of more car dependent. I have heard very helpful things about our public works director in pushing in that direction but having gone completely car free just a few weeks ago. I can only report that Burlington is that best bike tolerant. So it's been an adventure, but I'm looking forward to good news. That's all. Excellent. Well, thanks so much what I think the way I'm planning to do the public forum part of this is trying to alternate in person and then remote so that's the first person I saw for remote. So if you want to introduce yourself. Sure. Thanks, Billy. And my name is at Montga. I live actually over in one and I just briefly want to introduce myself. I know a number of familiar names and faces. I just want to introduce myself because I am running for Chittin County Senate in the new Chittin and Central District, which has a very small vision of word five in it in the King and Maple Street neighborhood. And so just to be very, very brief, been a resident with my family in Burlington since the 1970s. My wife Sidney's a retired nurse. I have two adult children that went through the Burlington school system K through K through 12 they now live out of state unfortunately. And I first got involved in public in community issues and in community activism back in the 80s when Bernie Sanders was there. I was city council, a city counselor for a couple for four years to turn city council president as well as planning commissioner. And it was part of a group of folks that were very active in Burlington in the 80s and of course I've been very active in Burlington since then. You know, a lot of the groundwork that we laid for public policy and ordinances and general local policies are, you know, I would say foundational for the local community that we that we have today. My activism goes back all the way back to stopping the original plan for the Champlain, what was then called the Southern connector, when it was supposed to go through the barge canal, and right through to today where my band actually has studio space down on Howard Street in the south end. So I, in addition to being a city counselor back then, I've been the formal housing advocate for well over 20 years with, and also was the city of Burlington's legislative liaison for a number of years. Deep experience working at the Vermont State House and, you know, one of the things that I'll be talking about as my campaign evolves is the fact that it's I think we all know there's been huge lobby huge turnover at the legislature so experienced voices are going to be really important and got that for, you know, over 20 years of work at the State House as a as an advocate and with our housing crisis and my housing experience, you know, like I'm uniquely poised to help with that particular issue. I'll just stop there. Housing is one of the things I want to work on climate change rate, racial equity and inclusion or a couple of others. And I'll just stop there and look forward to listening in on the discussion. Thanks. Thanks for the time. Great. Thank you very hard. And yeah, we look forward to hosting future candidates at an MPA meeting going forward at some point, hopefully. So, Andy, I'll turn it over to you if there's anyone in the room who's looking to speak. Anybody want to speak in the room? Anybody in the room who wants to speak? Yeah. My name is Bob Guthrie. I'm a homeowner in the south end of Burlington. I've had a home for 15 years, and I'd like to share this sign that I put in the front yard of my house. And that is is that we know what happened was the city of Burlington did a zoning change, and there's going to be a 1500 seat concert venue for Burton higher ground. On the intersection of home Avenue and Queen City Park. It's 1500 people, the largest in the state of Vermont. The main stage at the Flynn is 1400. The existing facility that higher ground has is about 750 and they have another one of 200 300. What we're looking at is the ability of higher ground seven nights a week until two in the morning. As I said it's in the middle of a neighborhood next to Red Rock Park, which is one of the nicest parks in Burlington. You have to remember that when they close at two o'clock in the morning. There will be an alcohol, there will be a loud music. And when you have 1500 people exiting at the same time, those people don't really act like monks. There's going to be a lot of problems with noise. And if you want it, there's the website know hg here.com. Another thing also is, is that when they have a full house, according to the website, they'll be short 250 parking spots, where will these cars park in the middle of the south end. Also there's no bike path. There's no sidewalk, and it does it takes a look at really taking a look at continuing our car culture that we have. Yeah, I think really one of the things is is that when we took a look at the zoning change, this would be a perfect place for housing right in the middle of a beautiful neighborhood in the south end, right next to Red Rocks Park, you could you could build houses in the 200 to 400,000 range, which is that midsection that we don't have any houses, and we could get 100 houses up there. That would be perfect. And again, the website is no hg here.com. Thank you. Excellent. Thank you so much. Okay, I will switch over now to someone remote I believe the next hand I saw was Brian. So Brian if you want to unmute yourself and turn on your. Thank you. Thank you. I had asked on Brian China I live in Ward two but I'm here in the scenic five sisters neighborhood in Ward five right now. And I had asked if I could present tonight for five minutes on a call to action for mass gardening in the city, but it's been a long time so I was told I could take a minute to share a little bit about it in the public forum, and then I'll send your MP a the presentation so you can read it. And I'm happy to come back and report in the fall on the progress of this action. If you don't have a meeting in July or August so is good I should be gardening enough other optimistic doings we presented previously about gardening and other public safety ideas. One of those presentations where what we heard universally is that where there's agreement is gardening everything else there's debate but it's almost universal that people believe there should be more gardens so we are calling on people across the city the gardening and the gardening curious to join us in mass gardening to create garden walkways that spread around the city and there's all different ways you could do this it could be as simple as just picking up trash more cleaning up your own yard or gardening your own gardens, but we're asking people to envision what it would be like to create garden walkways that link this out then with with what we're doing in the north and both in around downtown and through downtown. So, you know look around and see where the existing gardens are think about where they could expand so you can start creating little pocket parks and little links. And just picture this that one day when that roundabout is done that between Callahan Park in the roundabout you have a nexus of gardening that extends all through the five sisters and down all the way down pine street to the very end of the city, and that it links up through Union and Willard over to what we're doing in the old North and just picture how beautiful Burlington would be if the entire city was filled with these garden walkways of permaculture and consider the benefits of street gardens, such as reduced violence and reduced crime. So that's my quick pitch and I'm happy to come back and talk more another time and thank you for giving me some time in your public forum, and I have to go to another meeting so I'm sorry I can't stay. But I felt that it was important to at least show up and invite you to join us and I'm happy to meet with people one on one and help. And you're also welcome to watch the ward six presentation that I think it might be recorded on YouTube, or to have me come back and give an update in the fall. Thank you, and I'm going to handle over the next person now. Excellent. Thank you so much Brian will definitely share those materials. Andy I'll send it back to you if there's anyone in the in person who wants to speak. Hello. This is my first meeting so my name is Mindy Clausen, and I live on the corner of Pine and Morse Avenue, and I'm here primarily just, I would say in general just because I'm concerned about the amount of work that's going on and the changes that are coming to the south and when I, when I look at some of them and I'm not a planner and I haven't been involved in discussions but it strikes me that some of the things that are going to be done are not going to have the necessarily the results that are being promoted. Specifically, I'm very much concerned right now with the traffic that is going up and down Pine Street. And most during the pandemic, the number of people families, people with dogs that were out walking. I, the intersection that I live on has no sidewalks. No sidewalk on Morse on either side, no sidewalk on Pine Street on my side. And I realize that some of the volume of the traffic is because of the Shelburne Road construction but that's going to be going on for another I think it goes to 2024. And that's going to be going on for a while. The other concern that I have specifically is about the lack, and I understand that there's a shortage in the police department, but there is absolutely no presence police presence as there used to be there used to be a cruiser that would park in the Champlain School parking lot. And that tended to slow traffic a little bit, but people regularly drive up and down the road when it's not backed up at 1540 50 miles an hour. It's not safe for the number of pedestrians and the number of kids, especially when it's so close to Champlain School. So that's really why I'm here and my main concern. Excellent. Well, thank you so much for speaking now and I really do hope you can stick around and be a part of our discussion that we're about to transition into this is exactly the sort of conversation we want to be having so thank you for bringing that up now. Ruby, I believe you were the next person remote who I saw so if you want to unmute yourself. Yes, I wanted just to make a quick announcement about an event that's happening in the south and every second and fourth Sunday until November and that is at the barge canal we are doing a community science for the barge canal where we are doing a baseline inventory for the long term conservation and remediation of this site, and that everyone is welcome it's two hours between three and five o'clock. Just show up at the gate and whatever species we are charting on that on that Sunday you can join in it's exciting. It's amazing how alive the barge canal is, and it's wonderful to meet all of the people on the land. So we hope you'll come. And if you want more information will I'll put the full information about it. Send them to the steering committee so they can post them with the minutes. Thank you. Excellent thank you Ruby. Okay Andy I'll turn it back to you if there's anyone in person. In the room month, want to say something for public forum where this is sort of more general general announcements or questions or other things, not necessarily related to south end development but you know we're going to move into that as we get past public form. Anything like to bring up like now.  Sorry about that. Okay, sorry. I came in a little late. So I didn't realize that the nature of this part of the meeting and it may be better for me to wait until we've talked, we're really talking more about development in the south end. Well, put that hand back up and we'll we'll definitely keep going shortly. I see for read. If you want to speak in public forums to be a good time. Do you want to unmute. I don't know why it has my thing like that. My name is for read. I'm a volunteer with propositions zero. I live in the five sisters, and we outers initiative and referendum to Burlington, but it's the only city in Vermont that does not have mechanism for voters to put petition on the ballot. And that is something that is a proud Vermont tradition, and we are looking to bring that to Burlington, the kind of town hall democracy that you know the same spirit as the NPA. So, if you have not signed our petition, please sign up on our website and support this effort proposition zero dot org. Thank you. Excellent. Well, thank you so much for you. And I'm just going to do one last check to see if there are any other comments for public forum. I am not seeing any. Terry. Oh, great. Hi, thank you. My name is Terry rivers I live on Lucas terrorists and the five sisters neighborhood. My question is about the Champlain Parkway. I guess my big question is, would this city have to pay back money to the federal government if we don't construct it. And if we didn't have to pay it back with the city actually be pushing that parkway at a time when it seems to me we're trying to move to less cars into our city. It seems like I think that's a great question but it also seems like we'll be able to ask the very people who can answer that question. We're here tonight. Maybe when we're asking questions in the second part of the meeting. Excellent. Well, I did just on that point because the Champlain Parkway has come up a few times I didn't want to make sure that everyone was aware that there is going to be a hearing I believe tomorrow in federal court. I think that was Crawford on the opponents of the group of opponents of the Champlain Parkway have obtained a temporary restraining order and I believe it will be to extend that order as that challenge goes forward. So whatever perspective you have on it it'll be an interesting moment in federal court and seeing the judicial system at work. So if anybody is interesting go and I will not be able to go but I believe you know it's over to the public. I think we're going to be able to go to the federal building or the post offices on Elmord Ave. So, I forget what time is that but that should be on the court calendar. 9am. Excellent. There we go. Well, great. Well, again, thank you all so much for coming out tonight. This is great to have so what we're going to do with this first part of the meeting is kind of building off some of the comments that people have made. We have a round table public discussion about sort of the future of the south end our questions our comments our concerns. And for this part of the meeting we really do want to be more community focused face. So those of you who work with the city we are so excited that you're here those of you are representatives we're so excited you're here but first and foremost we want this to be the public input. So I would ask that all of those who came here tonight this is their first meeting there. Welcome and I really hope you stand up and continue the already lively comments that we've had so far so I'll kick it over to the room but if you want to do comments or discussions virtually just use the raise hand function again and I'll recognize you and we'll keep it going from there. So Charlie is here filming the this meeting for channel 17 for town meeting TV, and asks that if people want to be actively involved in the room that it would be better to come up and sit at the, the open chairs. And even come up and, and maybe sit in the chair and speak just because he can catch you better in the, in the room. So people who are in the room, it probably would be better if you want, if you want to say something, either ask a question or comment or, or talk with each other might be better to come up closer, even temporarily and sit, sit in the chairs around here, just so that, you know, as you see you can see on the people who are there are currently 39 people who are online, watching this as well. So, just so we can have a glimpse of you better and hear you better from the room. Take it Billy. Well, I'll start off then, you know, I will say that, you know, one of the things I'm most concerned about we've heard a lot of the different elements already tonight you know housing. intentional development of things that we think will last and that we view as pillars of our community. And that's really what we wanted to get from input of this is what do what we as neighbors want to see in our neighborhood. You know, we have the tradition of pine street as this, you know, industrial space with the barge canal for you know, 100 years and we have this real transitional time right now where we have some sort of, you know, older approaches, you've got buildings that have taken on a, you know, new uses but are maybe structured for when this was more of a, you know, drive through your spot or a spot where we thought a giant highway would be cutting through. So you know one thing that I certainly want to see is, I want to see more, you know, lively neighborhoods built up and I want there to be. I want there to be housing in our neighborhoods but I want there to be housing for people who are going to live here, and not in a you know, nativist exclusionary Vermont way but in a people who have made a choice, you know, whether from happenstance of where they were born or from where they were later on in life to come live in our community and be a part of our community. So that's something that I, you know, I do think as a city we have a role and a duty to find ways to have our zoning laws make sure that we are providing opportunities for people to live here and not just for people to visit on the weekends or stay in a nice hotel or host a bachelor or bachelorette party at our nice breweries but to live here. And that's one thing that I've been concerned about with our zoning approach sometimes is that I get a there's there can sometimes be an approach in zoning where we say we want a neighborhood to be some way but then once private development actually begins, the city can sometimes take a position of well we're not in the business of developing things we're just here to set the zoning standards and I do think that there can be a way a carrot and stick approach where we can actually encourage the community we want because I think if we leave it up to a free market driven approach, we're going to end up with, you know, out of state owners of commercial properties that may not be necessarily what we want that may be an over generalization but anyways those are some random thoughts and that's at least what I was expecting us to do tonight is ramble on in some ways so I pass it back to the room if there's anyone who wants to respond to those rambling thoughts or present their own thoughts about the south end development, the future. Things that you'd like to see things that you particularly are focused on. No. I'm in the life side neighborhood. I do nothing about the higher ground development and don't know if this is an appropriate time to ask for some background but I think my first question would be, how did the number of 1500. How was that decided. So, if this is a good time just to fill me and then maybe others about that I would very much appreciate it. I wanted to know more about the higher ground development burden higher ground development and some history and the other background. The process of coming to the point where it is at what point is it right now. Yeah. I think we probably could answer that question. Those, those of those people who are getting involved but let's also keep, keep the questions coming and then we can throw questions that people who are more qualified to answer them in the second part of the second part of the discussion. My name is John, I live here in the south end and as a work as a real estate project management consultant. I know some of the details of the higher ground burden application it has been granted local planning commuting. The, the project has been granted local approval by the city of Burlington. It is consistent with the zoning, the zoning of the area is light manufacturing. And up until recently, had a pretty robust non residential manufacturing presence along industrial Avenue, which is really where it is it's more in the heart of. An old 1960s style industrial part that was developed by GBIC. A lot of the industries have moved out. It had been the building had been occupied by general dynamics that also owned the innovation center. And Burton purchased it. After a while, it that portion of the building would is now slated for higher ground was vacant. Burton looked unsuccessfully at work with the city of CETO office to find manufacturing or use that would be consistent. It couldn't find one like a lot of industries in around Burlington or in Burlington, they've moved out to the suburbs. The dealer calm building cool, which used to be logic, general dynamics here on like side Avenue. So there's been a lot of transitions which happens anywhere. The zoning change is part of it. So, the zoning change amendment was proposed and was executed by the city that would permit performing art centers in the United States to utilize light manufacturing districts under certain conditions that that predominance of the majority of the square footage of the facility would have to remain in that which the balance of the burden. Square footage would be quiet. So, and, and, John, can I interrupt you just a second are are people who are online able to hear what John saying. I mean, I'm happy to get off of this because we're getting way late here. Okay, yeah, we are getting, but there is there is there is an application it's been approved by the city it's been approved at Act 250. It is now being appealed by the neighbors. This group citizens for responsible growth. I'm not involved with that. Okay, cool. Gotcha. Me too. Anyway, that's, that's a, yeah, sorry to bore you. No, no, no, no. Exactly what you have some hand online couple of hands online. Yeah, I'll pass it to Jasmine first. She's the first one I saw Jasmine if you want to unmute in this case Jasmine is actually homeless although Jasmine is right here hello. I'm going to go ahead and bring in the birch cliff neighborhood. I've been thinking about this a lot. And I was thinking that I think it was six years ago that I stood in the room where many of you are meeting today and spoke to the planning commission about the exciting new 14 story mall that was going to bring great prosperity to LinkedIn. I was never saying that I didn't feel confident that the funding was going to be there for that and that we were going to dig some stuff up and then there was going to be nothing to replace it and that it was bigger than there was evidence that Burlington was excited to support. And I don't really feel like I was wrong about that. And why is that relevant today. I was looking at the materials online about the south end plan and the other things coming out of the planning department. And there are pictures with skyscrapers in almost every one of their examples of what Burlington south end could be. And when I looked at the aerial sketches the lakeside building where general dynamics was looks relatively small in comparison to many of the other buildings that are there. You know they're mostly like three visible courses of windows or four visible courses of windows but their drawings are large. And it makes me wonder like is that an error is that that I'm just an old fogey he doesn't want to live in a big city with skyscrapers and the planning department thinks that it's a good idea. It feels as though there's been a lot of public outcry and not a lot of new building success. And we're still on this kind of build large build dense model and irrespective of whether that's a good idea. I'm confident that's a viable idea. And I don't really want the south end to look like the monument that just behind church street, you know, and we don't have a super great track record on getting big project done we're still waiting for the playground in the park two years later and that's not really a huge project. And so, rather than just being a Jeremiah here, like, I just want to make sure that we're actually it didn't feel like anybody was listening to me and I'm not entirely confident that anybody's listening now, and I would really hate to totally change the character of the city in favor of a project that people don't want, and that doesn't happen. And so, I guess, every six years I come to a meeting and sound that particular alarm and I hope six years from now I'm not coming to the next one saying the same thing. But I guess, I'm curious where the drive is for high and dense and large when, for example, you have to apply for development review to be able to put a single story addition on your house because of the importance of protecting neighborhood character. Like, if it's important to keep things where they are, people have a right for their government to hold that priority at all levels. So, those are some of my thoughts rambling as requested. Thank you for listening. Thank you for sharing and we really appreciate that. Andy, is there anyone in the room who wants to share or I can keep it going online as well. I've got some hands up here. Yes, keep going online for now. Okay, great. Margaret, you were the next person who I saw. So if you want to unmute. I'm Margaret Joyle I live on ledge Mayor Street in the five sisters of south the south end. And I really would echo what the person before me said, I don't as a citizen of Burlington since 85 and a resident of the five sisters since 86 or 87. I don't really feel like I have a say in the way development is happening in Burlington. And I don't like it. I don't like driving down Pine Street and seeing large gray stark buildings that don't really fit into the character of Burlington at all. And I really don't like the idea of the commercialization that's happening and to me, the higher ground is just part of that and of course the city approved it. They're a part of developing it. And I don't think they're in touch with us. What's great about the five sisters is that we can walk downtown and we know each other. And there should be more of that. There are certainly opportunities to have more affordable housing opportunities truly affordable housing that might make us somewhat more dense, but they don't have to be large buildings in order for that to happen. And I don't feel like we don't have a city that listens to us. I go to city council. I say what it is I have to say, and the city does just exactly what it feels like doing anyway. So I feel pretty discouraged about that. Thank you. I'm Mary Margaret and you know I will just say as as the representatives of the NPA that we are. We have structured this meeting so that input like that can at least be heard whether it can be affected on a policy level that goes beyond my pay grade but I really do appreciate the you you presenting your perspective in that way. I'll keep it going online so you have a decent lineup going here. Carl. I have you next. Hi is audio coming through it looks like my video is failing here. I'm hearing audio so I think you're good. All right, well apologies for the video pick up then my name is Carl console men I live on Harrison right next to the railroad tracks. And I'm a fairly recent transplant to Burlington I've been living here for about four months now. So I'll, I'll forgive anyone who wants to boo at the title wave of newcomers worse one thing the place. You know the earlier ones right I know half a dozen people after I told everyone I was going to be moving here we're like, Oh yeah I've been thinking about Vermont to I think I might see out in that direction on account of climate change destroying this place where I live. So top of my list personally what I would love to see here is a house I could possibly buy at some point. I'm a relatively well positioned person I work for the federal government, and I am well paid relative to Vermont standards and there is no chance I'm ever going to be able to afford anything I'm seeing here. And that's kind of the case all over the country right now. And the second thing I would like to see is not too much change I guess this is a wonderful neighborhood you all have here. I have been happier since we got here, then in any of the preceding four years since we match being able to walk down to the lake in two minutes every day. See those beautiful sunsets it's amazing. And it's a really precious thing. So I, I guess where I'm going with this is just kind of that there's a balance to be struck here you know some of that push for high and dense is going to be coming because a lot of people are going to be looking to head out this way in the near future. And the city really needs to be preparing for that whatever way it's going to happen. I guess I'll cut myself off there. Thank you for the time. Nice to meet you all. Pleasure me new Carl thank you so much for sharing welcome to the neighborhood and really glad to hear your perspective. Excellent. I'm going to comment here a little bit with higher ground a little bit not with higher ground. When the five to 600 cars are going to higher ground there's two ways to get there. One is home Avenue, which is a bike route. The other is Queen City Parkway, which is also a bike route has a one lane bridge. Since November we've had two terrible accidents on that bridge, and the bridge has not been repaired. There are no blinking lights. There are no cones to let people know that you can follow the ditch and maybe we can have the city take a look at that one lane bridge my daughter took a bike ride to Red Rock Park and said dad. It's a little scary. So, you know, the bridge has been smashed twice once in November last year. Once in March this year. No repairs have been done. Thank you. Thank you. I will pass it over to Ruby online now. Great. There you are Ruby. I wanted to mention some of what people have been saying. I also feel like development is driven by developers and I think that's the capitalist system.  That's the American way, but I think it's not working. And an example of that is, and I don't know if people know about this but on Pine Street right just north of BED Burlington Electric is a little cut out of land. It's surrounded by what will is the barge canal and what will be conserved land. And on that is a proposal from a private developer to build a patio.  You know where you drive in and you buy food that's made for you there. And then you drive out.   And so far has gotten approval from the city, according to the city's zone, which looks at things like lighting and things like parking and access, but doesn't look at the whole picture of what the land is and what it means, what it'll mean to the future. So we have this proposal that is moving making its way through and all legal, all the legal channels that will basically be right across from Jackson apartments. And if anybody who's driven on Pine Street or walked on Pine Street from four o'clock on the wall to wall traffic. So anybody turning off to buy their dinner at this little. Food cart. It's like a where people who want to run a food cart will rent a little space in that. And they'll drive off and what they expect is that people will come and they'll buy food and then they'll drive off and eat it at home or they'll there's a couple of picnic tables. How much sense does it make, if you don't consider that in the larger picture. One thing how are you going to turn in and you know parking and buy that when there's a whole line of traffic. How is that going to work. How is it going to work to put basically cars coming and going on to this land. It's a super fun site to by the way. In the middle of a traffic time, when everybody's commuting, you know what you'll stop traffic to pull in you'll stop traffic to pull out. It makes no sense. And what I am wondering is, why can we not make our development plans, according to what makes sense to the big picture, and not what makes sense to some entrepreneurs idea of what will make the money in the, in the development. What is going to really help people in the long term, and how are we going to support that. We've already seen and it's already been mentioned what's happened downtown. It's also, we have dealer dot com they did a huge renovation. It's now basically empty because things have changed since the pandemic haven't they, but our zoning hasn't. We're still acting as if we do things the same way. Let's recognize that things are changing. And I welcome people coming in, because this is going to be one of the safe places for people to come. Let's figure out how we all live together in this space, without doing making crazy decisions that are based on parking and lighting. And instead it's based on climate change, and a recognition of the influx of people, and a recognition of the fact that, even when you're working full time, people can't afford to live here. There's something wrong with that. Thank you. Anyone in the room. I have more people lined up online if you want to go that way. Yeah, we have somebody. Great. Yeah, thanks I had a few more thoughts kind of started this pontificating about our my hopes for less car dependency and it sounds like there's some interest in that and goes along with some of the concerns about the the concert venue. That bridge is not dangerous riding across that bridge. When there's traffic speeding across both directions is dangerous. And you know I'm not an urban planner I don't have a specialty in traffic design or anything but I have lived in Scandinavia and Belgium and have friends in the Netherlands and have seen quality urban planning that is not car dependent.  You can't solve traffic by building more roads. You can only solve traffic by increasing dedicated transit and increasing dedicated bike infrastructure. The buses don't count buses get stuck in traffic. Mixed use zoning is essential. If people can't work shop, gather just go the places they want to go. Within walking distance within biking distance. They're much more likely to need a car to get to those places that they want to go to especially just getting to work. It works at the hospital, and we now live here on the south end and it's a real pain to be without a car. And it's not that far away. And number three density doesn't necessarily mean skyscrapers. They are the very, very bikeable walkable neighborhoods that I have visited in Sweden, where I've spent a significant chunk of the last several years are the same exact density is the neighborhood on the east side of Pine Street, over by market 32, you know, two and a few units per building with, you know, lots of green space in between. I know if that's connected with bike infrastructure to shopping to places together to places that people want to be people don't need a car to live in those places. So yeah, those are just a few things that I think are relevant that kind of should underlie where this development goes, regardless of what we're building. I think we need to think about how people are going to get there. Thanks. Thank you so much. I am going to turn it back to online. And I see you up next. So, and you can, you can go right ahead. Thank you, Billy. I would like to put in a word for really thinking seriously about conserving open spaces. If we fill up the south end with more buildings and more pavement and start developing what what semi wild areas we have. The people who live here and the people who will live here will feel the lack of that during the pandemic. I think everyone realized how extremely important for well being, and the health of the community that we have places to go where there's trees where there's shade where there's quiet where there's birds where we can be with our families or buy ourselves walk our dogs. I'm thinking specifically about the land connected with the barge canal and the first lot the one that's on the south end of that whole piece of land the 501 lot where the truck stop or the food truck parking area is slated to be. It's in that parcel. That land is conservation land because it's a super fun site and anything that you do to it and disturbing what's there adds to the risk of pollution from the toxic soil this down underneath the ground. It increases the possibility of it going into the lake with run off. What we don't need is more pavement. What we don't need is to cut down the trees that we have we need to save what is a piece of land that has been left alone because of its toxicity. As a result, nature has continued to do its work by growing things and is now a kind of a peaceful wild place that's been recently cleaned up by 150 volunteers on green up day and and more following that and so it's actually a pretty lovely spot. And I think it would be terribly sad if we kind of turn it into the kind of even park that we seem to favor in this city which means lots of pavement. When I look at Oakledge Park, which is the closest park to where I live on Flynn Avenue, I see two big parking lots. I see the new work that was just done adding more pavement huge circles of pavement and a wider path and I'm all for bikes and bike lanes but I'm not all for more car dominated space and I think in the south end which is the arts district around Pine Street. I think we should involve artists and creative people to think about it as a community what we want to do there and live and do it lightly, not by by more more pavement and more money making development. Thank you. Thank you, Anne. You know, and I want to recognize one other person who I've lined up online but I do want to just say we're going to transition relatively soon into a more of a q amp a portion where we have our elected representatives city officials, lots of great people to, you know, ask some of these questions to but we're really hoping to keep this dialogue going so I completely suggest people who think about this tonight you know the ward five NPA steering committee all of our members have our email addresses up, you know there's all these city officials have their contact information available. So this is something where we do want to keep getting this input it's been great to have all these voices heard tonight but for those of you who are watching a recording of this later or just for those of you who are watching this later or just shy in person whatever it may be or like me are about to try to go put their kids down so can't think as clearly as they might want to. Let's just make sure we keep this conversation going. So the last person I see online is David so David I will recognize you if you want to unmute and if you want to turn on your video you can. Okay I have to figure out how to unmute one second here. We're hearing you actually so I think you've succeeded. Okay. Well, I grew up here was born in 1949 and have loves to hide out ever since I was a kid and all the greenery and the bushes and the overgrown places where there were once were mansions and I grew up on maple speed and I lived up on Ledge Road and now I live on Lakeview. But I just want to be listening to this conversation I came in late but you know they're going to build this big old road right on the other side of the railroad tracks from where I live. I mean they got stopped for a week or two but they're going to build that and have people been thinking in this conversation about developing Pine Street and I may have missed this conversation at the beginning. It's an incredibly large part of this conversation in terms of cars and pollution and the artery to bring more cars into downtown. You know I've objected you know I, I didn't want it to happen. I wanted them to actually build a cable car from the market 32 parking lot, you know, to the bottom of Main Street but along the lake but anyway, I just think we, whoever's talking later. We must talk about that when we talk about this, which is the southern connector. Absolutely David. Thank you so much. If I if I know my Burlington history I believe there was at one point either a rail extension that went down to Queen City or Parkway or there was at one point some sort of modes of transportation just when we used to have trolley cars that connected Burlington and Winnowski but you know, another era, but maybe an era that'll come back. Who knows. Well, a telephoric along the lake will do a couple of towers. That might be very interesting it would preserve the stuff below it. Absolutely. Andy I'll turn it back to you to see if there's anyone in the room who wants to make any more comments and sort of speak out period rather than directed questions Nancy. I don't know. I'm like sort of in between a city employee and a resident so I think you can be both. So I do, I do work for city planning as a data analyst, but I also work. I live in the five sisters. And I just wanted to, like what I hope for the future of the south end is a place where more people can live. I mean, we've had a couple sets of friends, young families who've had to move away because they couldn't afford anything close to where they currently rented and another renting family is moving away. So I just hope that more people can live here and I think that just necessarily means more housing there's not enough units for the amount of people who would like to live here. Excellent. Thank you Nancy. Another comment on Billy we're going to, we're going to keep going with the sort of speak out here format and then when we, when we'll then we'll transition to question and French man I live in in the south wind right adjacent to the park. It's a place to live. So many good, good positive things about this neighborhood. I would be remiss and I couldn't look at myself in the mirror if I didn't complain about the condition of Flynn Avenue and a number of the side streets. I'm all for biking but I stopped biking except on a bicycle that because I couldn't make it over the red rocks. They fix that I understand it's, it's better than it was a year ago. I do have to emphasize I think the roads are terrible condition in the south and and I'm hoping to start a small group who will give an award to the pothole of the week. Maybe we could give medals out to people that have lost their brakes and lost their steering. That's my comment. Thank you so much. One other point I just wanted to make quickly I am seeing a few comments in the q amp a function of zoom, just for a couple of different reasons that's not one that we use too much in this forum. If you want to post a comment there you can but I, it's not going to be a lively place for for commenting just, just in case so if there's anyone who wants to vocalize a comment. I don't know if you're welcome to but, or follow up the, you know, other things to say in this, this format where we're basically just speaking, speaking our mind rather than directing questions at anyone. Good. My name is Janice Alice. I live on this. And I just have a couple of comments in reference to the Burton higher ground project. I am a member of citizens for responsible zoning. We do currently have an appeal in the works. We've expressed a number of concerns about traffic noise and safety. The 1500 person attendee number actually came from one of the owners of higher ground when they sat down with us and presented their plan. My argument in a lot of instances is their current location, and even some potential new locations have much more infrastructure. And now there's restaurants, hotels and gas stations, none of which we have on Queen City Park. Putting the location there puts the venue smack in the middle of approximately five residential neighborhoods. It will change our neighborhood significantly. So we're adamant to continue our opposition to it. Thank you. I'll see your hand raised virtually. So I'll pass over to you Linda. I'm Linda Patterson, and I live on Conger Avenue in the lakeside neighborhood. I really appreciate all the comments and don't have a lot of extra to say it's more just personal about how discouraged I feel about development that does not take into account the livability of this area. I've been here for almost three years and will need to be moving once I start retiring because I can't afford it. And my rent just went up $100 a month so it will be even tighter but to say I love living in this area is a total understatement. I live in the lake every day that I can and and just love the park down the street and etc etc. What's been discouraging besides the higher ground which I don't even have words to express my, my, I don't know, shock I guess that that's actually being pushed through. It has been a real mixed blessing and for people who live here. It's been really, really difficult because not during the warmer months, it's hard to find a place to park on a street where I live, even without Hulu being there but now that who is there. Their parking has become even worse and I understand that there's a large parking area for Hulu employees and I also understand that a lot of them don't use it. They use our streets instead and that there's no policy in place to require that they use it and I also understand from some fairly careful reading of several months ago that they are charged something like $80 a month I'm happy to be corrected to be able to park where they work and to me that is, is pretty ridiculous so I just want to, I just basically want to talk about how discouraged I feel about the direction this is going. I agree with what everyone is saying about the, the untenable increase in traffic that, that is going to happen is already happening but it's going to happen even more with, with even a few of the proposed plans. So, it's not a very cheerful share but I just needed to put in my few cents and say how much I appreciate what you all do in helping us have our input into this these neighborhoods I really appreciate it very much so thanks. Thank you so much Linda I really appreciate that your comment. I, I just for share a personal thing I do work part time out of hula and I believe as a part of my agreement to work at hula. I think one of the conditions is that we're not allowed to park in the neighborhoods I know people don't follow that but there is supposed to be a policy in place that that prevents that and I think the next step is going to be enforcement to get there because yeah I made a choice not to pay for a car because I walk five minutes to get there from Locust Harris but it is supposed to be something that's enforced and that's something that I do hope that we can continue to follow up with and I'll make sure to mention the next time I'm in there so I'm going to need to hand over the duties to Andy. I do see at least one other person online Andy Lisa was the next person I saw but I'm going to send moderating over to you Andy as we begin to transition this into more of a question and answer portion where we can get input going both ways from the public and from the city officials who are here. Okay, good luck with bedtime Billy. Thank you, I need it. Lisa, can I give you a chance to speak? Yeah, sure. Andy this is actually Khalil. Lisa's name came up on our Zoom as I signed on so I apologize for being undercover here. I just wanted to reiterate some of the points folks are making, you know, I hear a lot of very, you know, mindful comments about, you know, getting away from car dependency, making more integrated neighborhoods and development and I really feel strongly about that as well and I think we've got a lot of great opportunities to be thoughtful about a complete plan and I honestly in my, I've been in Vermont almost about 18 years and in Burlington specifically for about five. And it seems like a lot of very individual developments that are going in and really car focused without an overall integrated plan and I think that this is the opportunity to take a step back from some of these projects and just say what really makes sense going forward for the future because I agree we're going to have to have more housing but that doesn't necessarily mean more cars and more rectangular parking lots everywhere so I believe in safe biking routes and I don't feel that we have that around here. I have a six year old and a 10 year old who love to bike and I want them to start riding the streets more and learning how to commute safely and I do not do that on the south end of them. I don't think it's a safe place to learn how to, you know, move in traffic and use bike lanes and things like that so I just want to reiterate some of those points. I really hope our public officials are listening. I happen to live at the corner of Lyndon Terrace and Birchcliffe Parkway, and it's a short section of road but Birchcliffe is in my opinion one of the more dangerous roads in the city. And we've been working for that five years we've lived here to get some traffic mitigation measures put in. Hopefully they actually happen this summer. And I'd love to hear some more talking points to that. So, thank you. I'm going to go with people who haven't spoken yet. And Katie Katanya. Hi, full disclosure, I am a former employee of UVM. I just want to throw it out there that if anybody else is feeling like I am that there is absolutely no oversight happening at UVM right now. I have written to the Board of Trustees multiple times and I know that there are legislative representatives on the Board of Trustees. I do not get a response. I just throw it out there that if anybody is as furious as I am and like frustrated with what is happening over there as pretty much the biggest employer in the state. You are not alone. And I have no idea how to get in touch with the Board of Trustees and get their attention. And that is all. So I've got other people who already spoken who want to say something else, but let's go with Tiff Blumley, who's got her hand up and who hasn't spoken yet. So this is really just in response to Katie. Tiff, if you want to get in touch with Gabrielle and me, you know, we can, we can talk with our colleagues who sit on the board of UVM I would just need to know a lot more. And we're easy to find on the legislative website. Just so you can email us. And like everybody else I'm really finding this very interesting and helpful. Thank you. Anyone else in the room right now. Fred, you wanted to see something else. Yeah, this is short and sweet. When you're adding up all the great things about living in this neighborhood. I just announced this morning that July 29 Amtrak will be serving us. We can walk to the train station. And if we buy our Amtrak tickets early enough, it's affordable. We go anywhere in the world. I'm starting out on foot here. I just thought that's so exciting to be able to walk three blocks down the bike path. Imagine what it would be arriving on the ball in Washington after you've come down from Vermont on the train.  You know, one time we went over, we were going over on the ferry to do some biking around and we went on the that little train station that's there. And we saw some people who had taken the ferry over, we're waiting for the train to get on the train to go to Africa. They were going to go to New York and get a plane to Africa and it was just like, you're sitting here at Port Kent, New York waiting for a train to go to Africa. Ruby, you wanted to say something else. I want to ask a question. Are we are we in that phase. I think we could start that phase. Yeah, let's do it. So, um, we talk about housing on so I'm Ruby Perry I live in the south and I live in the five sisters. I grew up in Montpelier and generations of my family have been living in Vermont I have seen the influxes of people and welcome the changes that they have brought and I welcome them to this moment. And I hear all the time about housing, how we need more housing, and I have a question and it's, and I apologize that it's also a comment but it seems to me we are building tremendous amounts of housing. I see housing going up everywhere. And yet, nobody that I know can afford to buy a house, or even find a place to rent. So, I would like to know how decisions are made. Oh, and I also noticed that much of the housing particularly in the newer newer fancier housing are dark at night. Apparently, nobody lives there. So we're building housing it seems to me that is not affordable for the people who need it, and housing where people are not living. So I would just need to know how what the master plan is for the mistress plan because that seems like that would actually get at the relationships that are needed. So how are decisions made by both. I'm talking both about the nonprofit developers and the prop for profit developers. Why does housing have to be for profit anyway. And why can't we, all of us make a reasonable amount of money, why does it have to be. So how are those decisions made when there is so much housing already being developed. Why has it not even begun to scratch the surface of what the need is, and that's an increasing number of need because I say we should welcome everyone who wants to come and live here. Thank you. That's a big question and a good one. I think that now that the people who've come who actually are employed by the city or some other body are empowered to speak and answer questions that come toward you or if you want to comment on things that have already been said. We should probably identify you there's making title is the director of planning and zoning. Samantha Dunn is from the community economic development office. And here is the director of the Department of Public Works. Who else is here that I see that Tiff Blumley and Gabrielle Stevens or a state representative Joan Shannon who's our city counselor are online. Are there other people I've missed that. Yes, Charles. Oh, and Charles. I'm sorry. Good to see you Andy and everybody else. Thank you. So the first question is about housing and a rather broad one, but anybody that would like to pick that up. Please do. There were a lot of questions that Ruby shared. Some of them were specific to kind of high level. How do we plan for and try to meet our housing goals and then more in the weeds questions about, you know, making choices about development and how development actually happened. So some other folks in the room might be better equipped to answer some of the latter questions but I'll take a first stab just at the bigger picture question. Yeah, sorry, Megan Tuttle. I'm the director of planning. And I have been working with the others folks in the city and around, you know, residents around the city of Burlington on a number of different housing projects, mostly around how we help facilitate zoning that can support housing creation in the city to help us meet our housing needs. And that kind of spans a whole range of issues when it comes to housing so that might be kind of where and when housing can be created in the city. Where we have places that are really underutilized like we've been talking about the large surface parking lots on Lakeside Avenue that could be could become homes and today are not allowed to be homes for people. So thinking about those types of issues. And then also kind of working on the on issues around how expensive is housing how affordable is housing to the people who are seeking it. So we use a number of tools to help us understand kind of what we need in terms of housing. One, one of those important resources is actually something that is compiled by the Vermont housing finance agency which is called the Chittenden County needs assessment. And that really helps us understand in terms of what's happening in our community, people that are moving here, what the incomes of people are that live here, how many people are experiencing houselessness, and helps us to understand a range of housing units that we actually need in our county homes that we need in our county to help us ensure that people are living in in homes that are safe and comfortable and affordable for their needs. The most recent housing needs assessment actually identified that we need thousands of homes in Chittenden County in order to help us meet our needs. So part of that the Chittenden County Regional Planning Commission, together with a number of nonprofit agencies, nonprofit developers, the city and others launched a initiative called the building homes together campaign, which is really about how we as a collective communities in Chittenden County can help move the needle on reaching. I think it's 5000 5000 new homes in Chittenden County in the next five years, which is really what that housing needs assessment identified so the work that we're doing kind of fits into that big picture of what those housing needs are in our county. And then what can we do to bring it down to the city level, and then down to individual kind of neighborhoods within the city. And so that's, that's kind of how that fits into that big picture plan. I don't know if you want to talk about then what it what it means to actually bring housing to fruition. Sure, well I just I think. My name is Samantha done I work in the Community Economic Development Office, and some of what I will say tonight we'll speak a little bit to the job that I had before coming here which was as an affordable housing developer for housing Vermont so, you know, did the, the role of developing housing that is actually affordable to Vermonters and glad to be able to continue doing that work in Burlington. I think Ruby that the answer to your question is something you alluded to earlier this evening it comes down to economics, and the reality is right now in Chittenden County, it costs about 450 or $500,000 to build one unit of housing in a multifamily housing building. And that has to do with our labor market it has to do with supply chain it has to do with permitting and regulations that has to do with the technology we have now to build high quality buildings that provide fresh air and hopefully will last hundreds of years you know that are making good investment of our materials but it's very expensive and so we need housing to be built by our nonprofit developers that will have income limits on it meaning that whoever the people who live there will basically be subsidized that their rent can't can't be more than 30% of their annual income. Those folks have access to certain resources to build that housing and we're at a very momentous time in our history with the ARPA funding that the state of Vermont has invested a lot of the money coming to the state to affordable housing and it's starting to trickle through but it takes time to develop that housing and again, even with millions and millions of dollars at $500,000 per unit there's there's a limit and so we need to work to build you know support our nonprofit housing developers which the city does by continuing to add subsidy to make those projects possible and work through zoning and permitting and we need to also support the for profit housing that other developers are interested and able and willing to bring to our city that every housing unit is going to have an impact on the burden that is being felt by those who are can't afford where they're living and the city has an inclusionary zoning policy that does ensure that all new units built by a for profit developer a percentage of those has have to be affordable so that's just a little bit of a response but it's a complicated situation that we're in with housing. As long as we're on the topic of housing, could you address one of the points that was the question that was brought up about by a couple different people about people that buy units or houses in Burlington or in Chittenden County but really do it as a second home or as a vacation home or as a rental or and don't really live here that that does seem to be a question that people had tonight. I don't I don't have I mean that is a reality the answer is yes to that question that that is happening. I don't know what we actually Megan I were part of a group that met last week to sort of start brainstorming like right now the city doesn't have a lot of tools to stop that from happening we don't have the ability to interfere and you know a sale of a private home to a to a private buyer and so where we were working on working together to brainstorm sort of we know what what can the city start to do to interrupt some of that because I think at the city level everyone agrees that that's not beneficial for our neighborhoods. Yeah, and I think it's a little bit less directly about you know people that might own homes that are second homes that they're not staying in that might be sitting vacant but I think many of you know that the city has also been working on related policies around short term rentals and really trying to bring a better balance in terms of how homes in our community can be used for short term rental purposes versus for long term housing and so really trying to tie the kind of the use of property for short term rental purposes to places where people live. Properties where people live and less about kind of owning lots of units within a community or within our community that could be used as short term rentals so that's one of the things that kind of related to that question that the city council and the planning commission have been working on. So what's the results to make sure that short term housing doesn't impact really badly in the city what's what's what's the result of what's the city going to do. Yeah, so the city council has been talking about a policy which would start to limit where you can have short term rentals in the city, and again really kind of narrowing it to places where people live so you know if you have if you live in an owner occupied building that maybe has another unit on the property, maybe you could short term rent that, but really trying to curb, allowing people to rent units on different properties where they don't live. So if you come up with. They have a draft law the city council has something that I think that they'll be continuing to talk about later this month. So Terry, and then Joan Shannon online. My question is about the University of Vermont and the student population and how students move off campus after the freshman sophomore year. And I'm not sure what the number is the thousands of students crowd the rental market in Burlington and I'm wondering if there's a solution to that with the university. Yeah, I'll just, I'll keep going. Yeah, we are also working on some zoning changes related to campus housing and campus development so that is definitely an issue that I know that our community has grappled with for a long time is just that balance of how many students are living in near campus neighborhoods and how we ensure that there are enough housing options for a diversity of people to live in those neighborhoods. And then just as you said to the, you know, kind of how it impacts our overall housing market in the city. So one of the things that were our office is actually working on right now in collaboration with UVM is a proposed zoning change to allow more housing to be built on the Trinity campus. So the specific goal there is to encourage more housing to be created on the campus for students to live in that would help support some of those dynamics. I have a follow up with that it's my understanding that they will just increase enrollment, and therefore there'll be more students at the university who will eventually need to also move off campus so they may have a larger freshman class that then become renters in the future and I'm just wondering, you know, I don't know how this works but if you have like 5000 students leaving University of Vermont and cradding into the rental market is there a way that we insist. I don't know how we do this that University of Vermont has all of their students. I'm not aware of any community that's been able to successfully get an institution to house all of their students on campus maybe some very small kind of colleges, but certainly a college the size of UVM I'm not aware of those types of examples but the city does have history of working with the community and Economic Development Office does have a history of trying to work collaboratively with UVM to come up with agreements that are less of mandates and more of kind of mutual obligations for them to house more students as their enrollment increases. It's been one of their policies for the last decade and they actually gave a presentation to the city council earlier this year indicating that that had been achieved over the last decade so it's something that we continue to work with them on though, trying to strengthen some of our master planning requirements that we we collaborate with them on. I think it's important to make sure that we are ensuring that they can create more housing on campus, especially if enrollment does increase and right now there is a challenge with some parts of campus to them even being able to do that so we can, we're continuing to work with them on these issues. So if you're interested, there will be a public meeting next Thursday night to talk about Trinity campus. What's happening. It's virtual. And you can look at the city's public meeting calendar and find information about it on Thursday the 23rd. Joan, Joan Shannon our South District City Council. Thank you Andy, and thanks for hosting this forum I think this has been a great discussion. So specific to the short term rental issue I just want to point out that it's not without any change from the city council what we're seeing with short term rentals is not legal today. You are required to. Be owner occupied in order to run a bed and breakfast and whether that bed and breakfast is booked online, or it's booked by mail or by telephone it's still required to be owner occupied and if it's not owner occupied. I think that it falls into the category of hotel which is not allowed in any residential zone. So we do have tools in the tool chest. As it is to address some of this problem and I've seen it happening. I also live in lakeside and I'm interested to see I have some neighbors here haven't met yet but welcome to the neighborhood. So we're seeing more people who are who are buying what were worker homes. As vacation homes and short term rentals allow them that makes that vacation home a lot more affordable when they can rent it as a short term rental when they're when they're not here. So I think the economics of this new platform that I think does encourage that type of investment that we hadn't been seeing before. The question Ruby asked is a really hard question I think that we're all struggling to understand this and I'm a realtor. I'm certainly struggling to understand what is happening in this market. I'm certainly concerning and I don't know that and it's I also think it's evolving quickly. I have a concern about Burlington is increasing it has less and less owner occupancy and I wondered something about new housing when I talked to developers of any sort whether nonprofit or for profit developers. Everybody is telling me they cannot get financing to build owner occupied dwelling units it could be dense it could be condominiums but there isn't there doesn't seem to be a desire or a financial ability to build what I think Carl said that he was looking for you know he would love to be able to buy a home here but it's increasingly impossible and I think that what I see as a realtor is of course the market is crazy you need more you don't necessarily have to have all cash in order to be successful in purchasing a home. But you're going to have to have more cash than you ever had to have before and people who who need to exert some caution thinking about resale values are not likely to be successful because people are going to be bidding more than what can be justified by past sales in this ever escalating market. So the market is absolutely running away from average people workers in our community trying to buy homes based on the work that they're doing in our community if they'll be much more successful if they have brought money with them from some other community that has probably higher wages than we have here in Burlington. But I don't know if Megan if you had any ideas about building the potential for building new units for sale. That's a great question and I don't know I'll actually also look to Samantha to talk about this one to just given her background in the in the housing development world because I've also heard the same concern that you shared Joan about financing not being there for owner occupied housing development. Yeah, I mean I would just echo that I think there was a change I wish Brian Pine was here he can talk about that in a lot of detail but the change in financing that happened about you know 15 or 20 years ago that just because a bunch of condos got built that couldn't be you know we're sold just because of market timing for less than a cost to build them that changed the the ability to finance those and we community and economic development office are starting to work with some of our local financial institutions to better understand that and see if we can help to to change that dynamic and and connect lenders and new products with with developers who are willing to build new homes that are for sale that that construction cost comes back into it and if you think it's cost about $500,000 to to build a thousand square foot apartment. Like just the the ability to build a home that that anyone that works, you know, most people that work in the city to could afford without subsidy from the city or the state or the federal government. It's just not achievable right now. Do you have a question or comment just very quickly. I'm I serve on the committee in the house that is concerned with housing and mostly kind of on the capital side in terms of investing in housing and so this year we passed about $92 million worth of housing appropriations that kind of run the gamut but the kind of the. There was a new program that was pretty controversial took a little my committee a long time to really hammer out with VHFA and Champlain Housing Trust, but the, but it's it's really geared to kind of middle income folks, and knowing that developing new housing is actually going to be really it's it's it's going to cost as as folks have said $500,000 $450,000 maybe, and that's going to be out of the price range for a lot of people in kind of middle income. So, so this would actually subsidize the development costs of of houses and in that program, a third of the units that are constructed will be permanently affordable through, you know that the model that cht has pursued. And the rest will be in they'll be subsidized the mortgages will be lower to folks at it. It won't have the same kind of perpetual affordability, but it will at least meet some of those initial demands that one of the things that I think has contributed to our current housing crisis. The pandemic only, only exacerbated it. But we have under invested in housing as a state for years and years and years and years where the property transfer tax a certain portion of it 50% is supposed to go to Vermont Housing Conservation Board and it has not. We've appropriated, you know, chunks of that that money for other purposes, and it is, and it has, we're paying the price now so one of the things I think we've got to do is to really develop the political will to maintain that level of commitment to housing. So I feel like there are probably lots of other questions but I know that one of the the directions that people's comments were going in earlier was about that you brought up Jeffrey the the whole question of car dependency and and I remember last at our last meeting Charles, Dillard Charles use you made a statement that the cities. One of the city's goals was, you know, subordinating cars in the I believe that was the word you used in the transportation system or becoming less dependent on cars and prioritizing other modes of transportation so I guess, since I was in the shape and sitting next to me and I have planners and and economic development and Charles online and how it, what are we doing to be less dependent on cars because those of us in the south end certainly are very aware of how dependent. We are and how surrounded we are by cars. Anybody want to take that one on. I can start. That's friendly. I love this conversation we should do big picture kind of open conversations it's great to hear from residents directly I also live in this neighborhood, and it's fascinating because so much of I think what I've heard tonight is that this is the most amazing place to live. And it's got challenges. Right. Challenge high cost of living lots of traffic. The good news is, we're a talented team to figure it out. I mean we've got an awesome city staff. I mean how many night meetings that we've been at this week. I'm looking at the eyelids on us. But there's stuff that's happening. I think, to the earlier point about multimodal transportation. Where did we start 70 years ago in the 1950s and 60s. When the south end was built out. They didn't build sidewalks. We today are starting from a place of deficit where our streets were built just for cars. And so that makes it really hard for us to retrofit streets. We're taking people's front yards. It took eight years to build a sidewalk on Flynn Avenue, because the neighbors fought us about the city using city property, because they felt their trees that were on city property were more important than sidewalks for the public. There are those fights on Cliff Street. There were those fights on Colchester Avenue. We are winning those fights, but it takes a lot of time to work through these issues. The great news is we're doing it like the roundabout. That was talked about for how many years, we're delivering a one lane roundabout was originally proposed by some counselors to be two lanes. We know we can do it more efficiently with robust bike pedestrian facilities, and we're delivering it. Amtrak to Burlington, we had to negotiate 10 legal agreements on the waterfront to rearrange property all over the waterfront to flip the bike path to one side, and move the waterline 10 feet to the other. People just say, Oh, the train's coming. Jesus, I'm crow the amount of headache that was. I lost my mind. The parkway. Yes, not a perfect project started as four lane high speed divided highway. Today, it's a two lane 25 mile an hour road with stormwater facilities that will make the lake cleaner tomorrow when it's built than it is today. I'm not an apologist for it. There's a lot that we're going to have to, you know, continue to work on after it, but it is infinitely a better project than it was. We've got $20 million secured for the rail yard enterprise project. A lot of people like that, get tracks, traffic out of the King Maple neighborhood connect us multimodally between Pine Street and the waterfront, and the bike infrastructure is a work in progress. When I came here 27 years ago, there was not one painted bike lane in the city. Not one in my tenure. I'm the only public works director who's removed over 400 car spaces to build out a network in the city. Are we there yet. No, but are we making progress. Yes. We are using Tiff money to save you all no tax dollars to build $30 million investment down six blocks of downtown with dedicated bike lanes wider sidewalks or a bus stormwater a tree canopy that used to exist back when the alms existed for those of you who remember Main Street. So, there's a lot of good stuff but there's more work to be done. Even Queen City Park road, paving, I'll speak to two more things and show paving. Yes. Climate change is not a friend freeze thoughts not our friend, the sub base of old roads is not our friend. When you built road 1020 years ago you put a sub base under it.  That means the roads do not survive freeze thought well, we're paving Flynn Avenue this year for you. I don't believe it. Burge Cliff Parkway is also on the paving contract. It may be this fall or next spring but it is under contract. And we've done a lot of other south end projects. The last piece that I just want to talk to is, yes, city place, we can malign the parkway with maligned city place. Fundamentally, a windowless mall in the center of our downtown it was two stories is not the mixed use city that I'm hearing about tonight. The project is going to happen. The, how it happens when it happens, the city has supported that project and it damn well better happen soon because I want to, but it will the economics of housing that we're talking about. There's too much demand for good housing. So, I'm really excited to live in this community. I feel very lucky to work in this community for you all. And I think together, we're saying we love this place, it's going to be even better when we're done. So let's keep going. Okay, can I just, just, just, I'm going to let both of you and ask questions than anybody who's online but just to respond to Khalil Zalumu was on earlier and saying that his six and 10 year old. It's not safe for them to bike in, in the south end what how do we respond to that how can you respond to that. Sure, we've invested $16 million in overhauling the waterfront bike path. There's going to be an additional two miles of shared use path that don't exist today as part of the Champlain Parkway. We are building out a level network of bike lanes that is far beyond anything that has been talked about for this year alone. We've got dedicated bike lanes dedicated protected bike lanes going in on North Champlain Street. We've got shared use path getting built on Mansfield Avenue again off road and University Place we're removing all the parking on University Place to accommodate bike lanes in both directions. We are moving. Are we there yet. No, and I know I've got a lot more work to do, but we're moving the needle. So, I can people online hear me, if I can just sit here and talk. I'll talk loudly. So, I guess that my reaction that I think it's great all of the work that the city is doing, but it feels to me as though there's a lack of coordination somewhere that is allowing the city to change zoning to bring a 1500 seat concert venue in an area that doesn't yet have sidewalks and adequate bike lanes and adequate roads to support that. It feels to me like there's too much that's coming but it's not necessarily in the same way. Right. You know, and I can see I haven't been involved again in any discussions but living where I do I can understand that I'm my street and our little neighborhood in the addition is going to have impacts from that as well. I don't think we do a great job all the time, telling folks what we're trying to work on to address some of these issues behind the scenes. The city is applying for grants we've finished scoping for a bike pedestrian path on Queen City Park Road. We know this is an issue. We know it's a priority. We've finished the scoping which is a planning. We are applying for a grant this round. We are going to get that project one way or another done. And we have made all buses in this county free for a year. We've never had free transit before. Like we are investing a massive amount of effort financially into sustainable transportation Amtrak to Burlington, $100 million. We damn well better get on that train. The amount of people who live in this town with the amount of sustainable transportation dollars invested. I challenge other people to find another community that does it. We got to do more. We're not there yet, but we're investing massively. The bond 23.23.8 million dollar bond that the voters did approve town meeting day includes money for bridge repair for Queen City Park Road. We know that bridge needs help we know there was a crash there. And I've written to my team already that we need to put pylons up if the ones got taken down and we will be fixing that bridge. And I guess that was the message that I was looking for what's going to happen with that bridge. We're looking at 200 cars a night, going over that one lane bridge. And then also, I've noticed going on Queen City Parkway. There's an item and I'm not sure if I understand it's called edging where you paint on the road. And it's called the edge where bikes and pedestrian share a road with the cars. I've seen that on Queen City Parkway. And I was kind of surprised because there's like, you know, it was buses and trucks and curvy road. And it's like this edge where the cars and the bikes are right next to each other. And they're not separated. So that's a short term strategy back in the 60s and 50s. What do we do, we built roads without it. What are we doing short term, we're fixing the street we put a new sub base under it, and we striped for the short term, some space for bikes and pets, while we work on the grant to build you a real shared use path off the road. So that will go all the way up Queen City Parkway and intersect with home. Yes. Oh, I was just going to speak to the question about the coordination of these types of roadway improvements and the zoning change and I will say that a big part of the consideration of looking at the zoning in the area where higher ground is proposing to go was actually the anticipation that the parkway would be built which would have would provide a different transportation route for people accessing that facility. So that was done at a time when we thought that the parkway was much more imminent, but also through our, through our permitting process you know one of the things that we require as part of an application is for those transportation plans to be submitted embedded in terms of how traffic will be managed in the future, given the infrastructure that we have now. I said we were going to go to 845 is now 845 I'm willing to certainly keep going if everybody is willing to stay. But just want to want one consent from everyone before we go past our, our stop time. I just have one question about the park. Thank you for coming. Yeah. Thanks for tonight. I just have one question about the parkway. Well, I mean I have a lot of feelings about why we're bringing a lot of cars on the pine street, which already is incredibly congested. The congestion is just going to increase. I think I saw cities numbers where the the low will also increase. I guess I'm, why are we doing this I mean I don't understand the need for the parkway. I know that we have an implant, but it doesn't seem to make a lot of sense given our, our kind of emphasis on different modes of transportation. Yeah, there are a number of reasons how we got to today and we can certainly Terry talk offline I will say shortly, you know this project was originally conceived in the 1960s as part of the circumferential highway. This is a very different project and that that what that was the state feds and I can share the paperwork with you. I would say that the city is on the hook for repaying over $40 million of project costs incurred to date with what's been built to date which is basically south of home Avenue and a lot of planning for a lot of money that we would have to pay that back. That said there are many benefits to this project we clearly want to get the truck traffic off of home and Flynn. There's a number of neighborhoods that are having the tank farm trucks go through their neighborhood.  Once all the south end projects are done including the rail yard enterprise project and around about, there's going to be less traffic and King and maple than there is today. Is this a perfect project. No, and I've said every time it's not a perfect project, but it's a good project, and it has a number of good attributes. I'm going to ask Trina online. Hi, thanks everybody. I just wanted to speak very briefly to the point that folks raised a long time ago in the meeting about concerns about noise from higher ground. I just want to share a little bit about my experience and then ask a question. When I moved here in 1998 it was our dream to reduce our carbon footprints to downsize to be without a car to buy local to live right in the heart of the city and so we bought a condo downtown. And soon learned it was not livable because of the noise at night from the bars. But what I wanted to share is that it's more than just the existence of those places there's another component to this. The problem was also that city council was granting exemptions to the noise ordinance and Burlington has a quite strong and resident friendly noise ordinance but it kept granting exemptions to bars and apartments and allowing amplified outdoor music till one in the morning on meek nights which is just not livable for working people, you know, you have to get some sleep. So my point is, is that it's not just the presence of higher ground, the question I have is, what is what does city council intend to do about enforcing the noise ordinance or not, or about granting exemptions to allow that to, you know, be out of compliance with the noise ordinance. Because unfortunately, it became unlivable downtown and we were told at that time, it's just tough, you know, you're going to have to go find you go go get a housing in a residential neighborhood which is exactly what we did ended up in the south end. And now I wonder what will happen here. I guess is my question for maybe Joan maybe you could speak to that what's the current thinking I because I've been out of touch for a while I don't know what city council is doing with regard to exemptions to the noise ordinance for for entertainment permits. Thanks so much. You want to take that on. Sure. My hand down here. So I was the only no vote on changing the zoning to allow higher ground to go in there and the reason for my no vote is maybe, you know, not exactly the reason that the neighbors are unhappy with higher ground but my thinking was that this isn't it's not an appropriate location for a regional venue which is what higher ground is. We want that more more downtown which Trina you know you point out that down you were finding downtown to be unlivable because of the noise downtown. But there is a there was this was also brought up by somebody else you know what's the process for making sure. You know there's adequate access and everything to the site and that is something that is evaluated. I believe both by the development review board and by they had to get an active 50 permit. So, so they, there does have to be an evaluation of that and a conclusion that these infrastructure meet needs are met. With regards to the noise the noise from higher ground there. I have not heard that higher ground intends to have any outdoor. It's outdoor entertainment, it's all indoor entertainment. And they plan to build this facility so that the noises contained within, not only so as not to disturb the neighbors but for the benefit of the quality of the sound within the venue. I don't want good sound insulation in the building. I don't think that sound from the building is going to be a problem I do think that potentially sound from so many people exiting the building at one time. And that's where I think that that noise can be a problem and we have never been able to apply the noise ordinance to, for example, people being loud around their cars cars that are traveling through the neighborhood maybe with their radios playing loudly that kind of moving target has never been the noise ordinance has never been used for something like that. I also note that, you know, the folks at higher ground. Last year operated. They, they operated the thing the backside of 505 405 on Pine Street they had concerts almost every Friday and Saturday and some of some of them as large as what's being planned. And for for this location. Further south, and it was a huge success and bothered no one. I was surprised. There was a concert that I wanted to hear couldn't for some reason, rode down the bike path and even though that all of the amplifiers all of the speakers are facing the bike path from that site. I couldn't hear that concert when I rode down the bike path so sound can be a very strange thing we've had. You know we had motorboat races on the waterfront that were causing noise problems at Callahan Park like who would guess, and yet we have had also very loud concerts that are have been very successful and really haven't been a problem for the neighbors so I still I continue to have reservations about having higher ground at that location, but I also have to acknowledge I was the only one. Nobody else saw that as an issue. So there we are and I also just want to note that that what Chapin said is really true we do have an amazing and dedicated city staff that does so much work on so many different fronts and I think that it can be, it can feel like people aren't being heard because we hear you know vastly different input you know I went to Red Rocks I knocked on, I had knocked on every door in Red Rocks to get input about higher ground and I will tell you there are very mixed feelings about that a lot of people are very very supportive of higher ground being there, and I wanted to get that input before I made my decision on how to vote on that. But it's hard when you have to make decisions and the public doesn't necessarily agree but this has been a wonderful night of kind of vetting some issues and getting the perspectives of a lot of different people here in the south end and we definitely are listening and I hope that that you feel heard. We can't fix everything all at once but there are a lot of people in this city really working hard to make things better. And we don't always for a lot of people better means higher ground going into the location where they plan to go in and for other people better means leave it as it is is better than that change. With housing I mean we're all we all support affordable housing and the devil is always in the actual housing proposal that that it's very difficult to get public support for any intensive housing proposal and I share that feeling like I don't like tall buildings either I think we often shoot too high quite literally you know we can have dense development without having really dense development. I think that it would be received better by the community, if we did that. And then the challenge is what can be, you know, you heard from Samantha it's costing $500,000 to build an affordable unit. And with that height comes some affordability as well. Yet it feels like we have neither so it's a challenge it's kind of a catch 22 type of thing and there are a lot of people that are trying to find the balance in these different interests. But a couple of the people speak and Charles Dillard is at his hand up and Khalil also has his hand up and also Sharon O'Neill so let's go to them and let's let's say we're going to go for five more minutes because we've already heard that that we have drooping eyelids on the city staff. Charles you want to say something. Yeah I don't know if you can see my eyelids but they are drooping. Yeah, no Andy. Again thanks I just wanted to plug. I know it's getting late and I see people dropping off the meeting and people emptying out of the room I just wanted to plug a public meeting for the south end innovation district, I think we can talk about the zoning framework for the south end but there are many of these other issues it's at the generator on June 29 at 630 will go as late as we can. But I was curiously writing down there were so many good questions I'm, you know, I think some of you know I'm very new to Burlington. It was a stroke of luck that I actually was able to find a place to live in the city, but I am super impressed, and have a ton of great questions that you all posed and we will be sure to embed those into our public meeting and so I just wanted to plug that June 29, I generated 630 there's also going to be a public meeting July 7 and virtually for anybody who prefers that or cannot spend that meeting so yep. Thanks again everybody and hope to see you soon. Thanks Charles sharing. Thanks for allowing me a chance to speak. I just I wanted to bounce back to the question about the noise ordinance regarded to the higher ground venue, and also just wanted to just kind of piggyback or reflect on something that Joan Shannon had said. I literally am 150 feet I am a direct a butter to the higher ground project so I really do care about hearing a, an answer about how the sound ordinance in Burlington applies to this venue. I know it will be reinforced and you know I know Joan, we have met before and chatted before, but I just like I'm not comfortable trusting that I won't hear noise from this venue is literally I'm the most direct a butter. It is right next to my residential neighborhood, and I hear people saying. We're listening I don't think we're listening but I feel I do feel like there is this piece of. It's only one small neighborhood or it's only two small neighborhoods, but it's still my home. It's still where I work. I mean it's still where I live. It's where I have to sleep so I go to work so I would appreciate some direct answers about how the sound ordinance will apply to this large venue. Next story my home. Before we before we answer that question I think that's a great question we're really really hitting the, the witching hour here but kind of did you have another comment or question. Yeah thanks Andy. So, so mine was just based on a comment Chapin made and talking about the street improvements and there's a comment there that that birch cliff might get paved in the fall or next spring which is a little disconcerting because that would be. If it goes to the spring that'll be the third delay since I've lived here in committing to improving the road. You know we've got. Like I said the design of the road is it's basically a drag strip at the top, people go very fast up and down it. I'd love if it does get delayed past the summer I'd love to see some of the temporary speed mitigation efforts we see all around the city these planters that could put in the way, similar to net so narrowing the road in some way shape or form needs to It's it's incredibly dangerous and it's only gotten worse with the Shelburne road work and just one other point I would love to see our city speed limit lowered to 20 miles an hour. If that you know I drive at about 15 to 18 miles an hour in the city to do my own little part and slowing people down because there's no need for go to go that fast around the city. And I would love to hear you speak to that delay and if, if we can commit to having it done sooner than next spring that would be phenomenal. Thank you for that for that question and I comment I'm, I'm feeling the pressure of time here, and I guess I would would encourage you, Chapin, and to respond directly to Khalil direct, you know, individually. And also, perhaps, Joan, or, or other people responsible could respond to Sharon directly about her concerns about, or her questions about the noise ordinance because I think Joan you really hit it on the nail and in the nail on the head in terms of, you know, how do we, how do we enforce a noise ordinance on people who are getting in their cars and playing their radios and one thing to break up a noisy party, you know, but so perhaps if you could respond individually to, to Sharon. If we could end the meeting and, and let people go home. That would be great. I hope that's satisfactory everybody and thank you so much for all of you for online and in person coming to this meeting it was great. Thank you. Civil moderate. Thank you everybody. Thanks everyone. Thank you. Thanks for coming. Everybody thanks. Thank you.