It's Sunday, July 11th, and this is For Good Reason. Welcome to For Good Reason, I'm DJ Grothi. For Good Reason is the radio show and the podcast produced in association with the James Randy Educational Foundation, an international non-profit whose mission is to advance critical thinking about the paranormal, pseudoscience, and the supernatural. I'm happy that my guest this week is Joe Nicol. He's Senior Research Fellow for the Committee for Skeptical Inquiry. He's really considered one of the world's leading paranormal investigators, a formal professional stage magician and private investigator. He taught at the University of Kentucky before joining the Committee for Skeptical Inquiry, and he's used his varied background to become widely known as the investigator of myths and mysteries, frauds, forgeries, hoaxes. He's been called the modern Sherlock Holmes, the original Ghost Buster, and in quotes the real-life Skully after that character in X-Files. He's investigated scores of paranormal occurrences and haunted house cases, including the Amneville Horror and the Mackenzie House in Toronto, Canada. He's a veteran of literally hundreds of TV and radio appearances and the author of over 20 books, including Inquest of the Shroud of Turin, Secrets of the Supernatural, Looking for a Miracle, Entities, Psychic Sleuths, Real Life X-Files, The UFO Invasion, and Secrets of the Sideshows. Welcome to For Good Reason, Joe Nicol. My pleasure, DJ. Always good to be with you. Yeah, we've had some fun conversations in the past. This is the first time you've been on For Good Reason, and it's great to have you on. I figured today we'd, since you're really the founding figure, one of the founding figures along with James Randy of the Scientific Investigation of the Paranormal, as opposed to what might just be described as armchair skepticism, I thought we might spend our time today talking about why you do it. Well, exactly. For one thing, when I was eight years old, I knew I was a detective. And I've not wavered in that belief too much. I had a fingerprint kid at an early age and was given to a forensic approach to life. Well, so you're emphasizing detective work, kind of, you know, the analogous crime-scene investigation, going in the field, being a detective, looking at evidence, sleuthing things out, not just doing research in a library, right? Exactly. Of course, research in a library may be a very good part of an investigation. But my background is, as a detective, I was, as you know, I was a magician at the Fudini Hall of Fame, and I was a detective for a world-famous detective agency. So I've actually, you know, investigated all manner of things, from grand theft to cold homicide cases. And in those endeavors, you couldn't get by with being a debunker. I mean... Or just an academic researcher. You have to go in the field and look at evidence. You do. And I learned that as early as 1972. You know, my early case where I went to McKinsey House in Toronto. Indeed. And found that people really were hearing footsteps on the stairs. Only they were coming from the building next door. And that's when I realized, this is what you do. You really have to go on scene. You have to actually investigate. And I thought, if you do, people will believe you and they will love you for it. And how wrong you were on that point, right, Joe? Yes, I found that people didn't want to hear my explanation in some cases. And didn't love me at all. We're quite annoyed with me. So, just as background, before we get into the two main issues I want to explore with you, just cover this distinction you just made between debunking and investigating. You end up debunking, but you're not a debunker, you say. Right. I think we need not to start with the answer. This is actually a principle that PsyCOP, now CSI, came up with, that we would not judge things they priori. That is, we would not, and as the inquiry, decide on something just the same way. We don't want our homicide detectives to just dismiss a shooting as another suicide, even if we find out the guy was shot three times in the back. No, no, a bad case of suicide. No, no, we want actual investigation because we want to know what really happened. And so, I decry, alike, the too credulous believer and the dismissive know-it-all debunker, who from his armchair seems to know everything without ever going to a scene that actually investigated. But after going to all of these scenes and investigating, you end up debunking because you end up coming to the place where the armchair debunker was already at. Well, not exactly. And here's the difference. The armchair debunker, when faced with something like McKenzie House, often says, oh, yeah, those people are probably, they're probably crazy. Now, they probably made that up. They're probably liars. Maybe they were drinking. Maybe, maybe, maybe. Because for them, the issue is just, are there ghosts or not? And they already know the answer to everything. So of course, there are no ghosts. So that's that. But what I'm doing is trying to reach an informed opinion. I'm saying, well, yes, I think there are probably no ghosts. But let's just put that aside for the purpose of investigation and let's see what's actually going on. Because we want to know, in this particular case, we want to know what's actually happening. And it was the printing press next door, the footsteps there. That's what's actually happening. But you and the armchair debunker both arrive at the same place that McKenzie House was not haunted. Right, but let me clarify a point. There was no printing press next door. And some armchair debunkers thought that the sounds of the printing press when they found that the building next door was a publishing house, they said, aha, aha, must be a printing press next door. Turns out there wasn't. So it was only a warehouse in an office building. So armchair debunking isn't going to be very accurate much of the time. It turned out they were hearing something else next door that made a rumbling and clattering sound. But the point is that you can't just guess and the devil is in the details. You need, if you want to know what's actually happening, then you have to investigate. And I would maintain that when people have a question, then they want a real answer. Not just, well, whatever it is, I don't know what it is, but it's not a ghost. That's not a complete answer. They want to know what could cause the sound to put steps on the stairs when there's no one in the house and the house is locked. In one case, it came from the building next door. I do not want to get off onto another important topic, which is how I think your approach is deeply humanistic. You say these claimants, these believers, these people who have this haunted house experience, they are sincere and they want to find out what's really going on. And you can only actually find out what's going on by going to the scene and investigating, not just being a cynical skeptic, a kind of knee-jerk skeptic or debunker saying, oh, there ain't no such thing as ghosts and those people are diluted case closed. Exactly. And it's not just, I mean, I am a humanist skeptic and I do want to be respectful of people. They may be hoaxing in some cases. They may be quite silly, but still if people, if sincere people have claim to see an apparition or claim that something happened, it should behoove us in order to be credible to actually investigate so that we know whereof we speak. I mean, I think that the question, I say this all the time to the debunker type, the question isn't just are there ghosts or not, which is pretty much what they, their answer is, well, there are no ghosts. But the real answer is that there are phenomena that can be investigated and explained. Do people report mysterious phenomena? They do in large numbers. Do they believe it? Even larger numbers. And so if you want to convince people other than just fellow debunkers, you can put together a small group of fellow debunkers and they can all make fun, hoot down others, make fun of them, mutually assure each other that they're just smarter than everybody else in the world and so forth. But if they want to actually convince anybody else, they need to be, if not respectful, they need at least to look at the evidence and to be seen to be fair and to be able to address the real questions. So I think it's not just a matter of are there ghosts or are there not? Yes, yes, there probably are no ghosts, but what exactly is causing this phenomenon? And that's the way that I believe that you get some credibility and that's the way you're able to influence others on radio and television shows. If you just hoot people down and are just making fun of people and clearly don't know the answer. And I've seen that with the Shroud of Turin, for example, before I really got into investigating the Shroud of Turin and I saw lots of skeptics just dismissing it as the silly old relic and so forth. No, actually the Shroud of Turin really had some real mysteries about it and those mysteries needed to be investigated and explained. Not that the act of investigating or explaining whether it's ghosts or the Shroud of Turin is just a marketing strategy in order to not be poo-pooed in a radio interview. That's not your only agenda, but that is one good side benefit of your approach. I have an agenda that has many aspects to it. One is that I believe that we should actually look at mysteries in order to learn about ourselves and the world we live in. Forty years of work that I've done have told me a lot about how quickly we jumped to conclusions, what an illusory world we live in, what kinds of psychological states can produce things that will fool us and so on. I've been richly rewarded for my years of study. And I feel rather sad for the people who aren't concerned about those issues who think they already just know everything and that it's just a simple issue of going, you would only go into a haunted house to see if there's a ghost or not since they already know there aren't any ghosts.  Not at all. I've learned many things about myself and about others and about our world. Things about our culture, things about science, the human mind, all manner of things. I could go on for hours about things that I've learned and I've had an interesting time doing it and I believe made myself more credible when I talk about such things because I have enemies who may dismiss me as a debunker but if they do, they really obviously haven't read my works, haven't really read my books. The people who have know whatever my faults are, they know I've been there and spent a lot of time actually out in the boat trying to figure out what people were seeing when they reported a lake monster for example. So Joe, you just talked about doing this for 40 years and that helps me concentrate on the two things I really want to get into with you. One, why you keep doing this. Why you keep investigating the paranormal when you've pretty much already done all of it before. And second, why you concentrate on the paranormal in particular and not on so many other things that might deserve skepticism in our society. So over the years, you've looked into hundreds and hundreds of paranormal cases really more than any other living human being, depending on how you define it, maybe Randy has done as many but he doesn't really go in the field like you do. You've done it firsthand. You've actually gone in the field, looked at the evidence on both sides. You've cracked these cases, you've solved them. So let's get at it this way. Do you ever think you've done enough, say ghost busting or lake monster investigating that the question is no longer open to you? In other words, do you feel like you've ever just conclusively solved one of these paranormal subjects for all time? Well, not, maybe not really because again, if the issue was are there ghosts or not? Are there UFOs or not? Or actually, of course there are UFOs. Are there flying saucers or not? Right. On other planets and so on. Then I have to say that from my experience, I think there probably are not. Let me just clarify for our new listeners, by UFOs you don't mean alien spacecraft, you mean unidentified flying objects and by definition something you see in the sky, you don't know what it is, it's a UFO. It is a UFO and so UFOs absolutely exist in huge numbers. I have seen UFOs, of course I usually turn them into high UFOs that is identified flying objects. Okay, so the point you were making, yeah. So what I'm saying is that I'm not just interested in the bottom line. New statues weep, do ghosts exist? Are there extraterrestrial craft? Is Bigfoot running a muck in New Jersey? I have to say that provisionally, I think those things don't exist. I've certainly not been able to find evidence of them. But I'm willing to look at the next case because again it isn't just do they exist or not? As long as this question remains, I will investigate, do people believe in such things? And if so, do they deserve an answer and just the public want and deserve an answer? So if we just keep saying to ourselves, well look, I've been in 100 haunted houses, I could do better things than go into 100 more, been there, done that, end discussion. Well, yes, end of discussion provisionally as far as doesn't look very good for ghosts. But there are other important questions you still think are worth investigating in the process of the investigation of ghosts. You're getting at other topics, like why people believe what they believe and all these other interesting subjects to you. Yes, and some new mystery comes along ever so often and the public is wildly curious of these things. Some statue, you know, weeping oil in Windsor, Ontario recently. Or I was just in your old town of the St. Louis where in the end had a ghostly piano player. And the question is, some teenager said he had spent the night there and he heard ghostly piano music from his room and as far as he knew there was no piano in the premises. Well, how do we explain that, you see? So I happened to be in said lodge and I happened to know that there was a piano in the bar and I happened to get a floor plan and check out where the guy's room was and then I got a passkey to make a long story short. His window was pretty much above the bar's piano. I don't think that was too mysterious and I know what you're thinking right now DJ, concentrate, concentrate. Little psychic test for our listeners. Psychic test, tell me the truth now.  What you thinking, man? So, but hey, that's why I get the big buck. Oh, okay, I don't get big bucks. But that's why I do this. It was an easy one, but only because I was troubled to be there and go to a little trouble to check it out. But you still think it was worth it. Let me just ask it this way. Would you at least concede that some of these topics seem more open to further investigation than others? Ghosts, for example, you may never get tired of going into one more kind of haunted house like a crime scene, being all open-minded as you've described.  You think it may actually be possible even though you think it's unlikely that this hotel or that house is haunted, you tend to only find creaking doors or this piano coming through the open window, the room, or you find these kind of mundane explanations. It never gets boring or tiresome or tedious to you. But do you think some of these merit more attention than others? In other words, haven't some been done to death? I don't really think so. I think this is the test.  You're being cheeky there, hardly mundane, yeah. I mean, there are things that we've looked into endlessly, but yes, yes, next week on CNN, we have a statue weeping supernatural tears, and I've looked at many of these, you and I have looked at such things together. Then it behooves me particularly if there was some aspect of it that was a little different. But even if not, I am willing to address that phenomenon. Now I can't go everywhere and give everything my full attention and the Windsor One, which is an ongoing right now, the Windsor, Ontario, I was able to talk with some people and do some research, and I haven't actually gone there. It looks to me, I said I could not distinguish it from a pious deception, and nothing really very astonishing about it. But some years ago, I had a glowing statue, and I had never heard of a glowing statue, and I wanted to find out what on earth is a glowing statue. So I went to Campbell, Ohio, and I investigated a glowing statue.  You, it's not enough, it's dissatisfying to you to say, oh, that's fraud, or there ain't no such thing as ghosts, and leave it at that. You're so curious, you wanna go and actually look at it. You have this kind of youthful curiosity. I don't know if it's youthful, but you know what I mean. Well, exactly, and I take that as a high compliment. I was so curious, I know I was a challenge to my parents. But the curiosity, I would say, is a good and a natural thing. Don't we want, if we have, again, to use an analogy with CSI case, if we have a shooting death or a death reported, don't we want our homicide commander to not just say, oh, well, it's just another dead body? Been there, done that. We've had lots of dead bodies. Oh, sure, we could spend a lot of time investigating and so forth, we'll still just have another dead body. The issue here is whether the body's dead or not. Pathologist says it's dead, it's all accurate. No, we want to know all the details. How the person died, was it a homicide? If so, who did it? Did he really do it? By what evidence do we really know this? And I can understand that there are people who are not very curious and who would not make good homicide detectives because after a dozen or so homicides, they may be saying, oh, well, just another dead body, good grief, how many more of these do we have to investigate to know that there's no homicide, gremlin? Yeah, I must say that's a damned persuasive analogy. Okay, let's try it the second aspect of this thing that I mentioned. So you just answered why you keep investigating the paranormal, it never gets old, you were thinking maybe it's just a difference in personality, you're curious. It's also this philosophical commitment that you explained at the beginning of the show. But the second way of getting at why investigate the paranormal is really just asking the question, why the paranormal and not all the other nonsense in our society. Michael Shermer, also Paul Kurtz, they both said in interviews with me that some of these topics in skepticism, the investigation of the paranormal can sometimes get to being rather trivial, they've said. So stuff like UFOs, ghosts, Bigfoot, aren't these views just fringe views? The thinking goes that there are bigger fish to fry, I mean more pressing issues that deserve our attention than all these goofy beliefs folks have. So that's a kind of criticism of why people investigate the paranormal. Well, some things may be more important than others. I would say that ghost claims are very, very important because they tell us whether we live on after we die. It's a pretty big, a pretty important question. I wouldn't want to dismiss that too quickly. So it's not trivial, it touches on the central aspects of who we think we are in this universe, right? Well, exactly, I mean most of the paranormal promise is pretty big thing. Now I know that some people, I mean if someone were raised a devout Christian and someone were, you know the type I'm talking about, they're raised a devout Christian. They've been burned by religion, now they're secular and they just want to rail against God-belief or something. Well, they often may have only sort of a monomaniacal view of things and be interested in just one topic so that no matter what you discuss, ladies' fashions, food choice, whatever, we'll eventually, two or three or four steps down, we'll get to the question of God. It's all they think about. They're kind of one note, Johnny's. Now I want to be maybe a little more generous with that ilk. I know exactly the kind of call it skeptic that you're talking about, but some of them actually just say what's causing the most harm in society? It's not belief in lake monsters, it's belief in God. That's the argument. Here's the different issue, I think. One is what we do in terms of inquiry and then what we do in terms of action. I don't know how much more time we need to spend on the God question. How many more ways can you argue God does not exist in other words? How can God lift a rock big enough? Can God make a rock big enough that he can't lift it? Right, how many angels don't dance on the head of a pen? I got it. Yeah, some of that, I was done with by my sophomore year and I don't need to go on and on and on and on about it. Yeah, yeah, yeah, there's no God and so forth. What I do, and I do this more than maybe just about anybody, I investigate religious claims. It's a long list of manifestations of the alleged supernatural. You know, the glowing statues, the miraculous in quotation marks shroud of turret, the miracle healings at Lourdes. I don't in the least shy away from religion, but I'm trying to get somewhere other than, okay, I'm an atheist, therefore I know in advance of inquiry that all of this stuff is nonsense. This is just another form of debunking. It's maybe the big debunking, but it's still just debunking. It's done by debunkers.  They may be right, it's not that I disagree with them. I am not a theist, I am not. But I don't start out by saying, and it would be very, very wrong to say, I'm an atheist, therefore I know the shroud of turret is some kind of fake. No, because first of all, we don't know that the shroud necessarily couldn't be a non-supernatural, ordinary artifact. And so we just need to suspend all this no-it-allism. We need to suspend it, put it aside. What Coleridge called the willing suspension of disbelief. And just free yourselves up so we can go to the scene of the crime and say, well look here, here's a fingerprint. Here's some blood traces. And what does this mean? And see what it means. So when somebody is postulating that they have proof of a deity in the form of a supernaturally weeping statue, because you and I know that statues don't actually weep oil. And it's a pretty good hypothesis that the next oil weeping statue that we come across may be a pious deception. But we can find out whether it is or not. And in the process, yes, you learn other interesting things, but you've just recounted how you've investigated more religious claims than just about anybody. Yes, Randy's gone after the faith healers, but you have been in this field. Well, Randy's right up there too. Randy and I are doing very similar things. Right. But you're not going out there just sticking it to believers. You're investigating claims. Exactly, I am. And I'm often respectful of believers because while I think they're mistaken, I just don't see a lot of motivation to go make fun of some poor lady who thinks that she's got the image of the Virgin Mary on her door or something. I mean, people are mistaken, but I just happen to have had enough experience to find out that some of the people are really, really nice folk. And okay, they're simple. They're not very educated. They haven't thought about a lot of things. They're maybe blighted by religious dogma and so forth. Yes, yes, yes. But the question is what is going on here? And some of these you can spot pretty quickly. And one other reason to care to investigate is because once you do investigate and once you know that something is... Once you've solved a case. Once you've solved a case, then you know whereup you speak.  Oh, whoa. I say quite often, oh, another wonderful opportunity to explain how science works. Let's just use this. Hey, boys and girls, come here. Here's a big foot track. Let's think about this. Okay, so not a whole lot there to disagree with. Let me take it this other way. Let's talk about Loch Ness Monster. It's just one of dozens, literally dozens of topics you're a worldwide expert in. So Lake Monster. I'm gonna quote you, DJ, on all of these great sound lights. Well, you know, I'm saying it all as we rehearsed and I should get some kudos for that. I'll send you your check. Don't you worry that you're in the mail. Perfect. So the Lake Monster thing. It's not just in Loch Ness. There are a number in the US and Canada as you've illustrated in your writings. Let me ask you directly, do you think that the energy you and others in the skeptics community spend on such seemingly trivial claims could be better spent in the public interest on topics, other topics even in just in skepticism like dowsing bomb detection devices where people actually die as a result of their belief in dowsing or faith healing or some of these harmful complementary and alternative medicine claims. And in other words, there seems to be like a ranking of more important to less important paranormal topics or do you think they should all get equal treatment? Well, I don't look at it that way. If I were doing that, I of course probably put the investigating God question way at the bottom because we really have just that's been exhausted. So we don't need to do that anymore. But certainly the issue of medical clackery is very dangerous. In fact, maybe we ought to be investigating any of this stuff and we ought, if we're gonna actually decide what needs really doing, what's more important and that governs our activity, we maybe ought to get out of the whole skeptical business and go to Haiti and see if we can make a difference. I mean, that would be maybe the logical place where that ends up. But look, what I do, what I do is I investigate claims. Now, I'm not a propagandist. I'm not a, you know, any of a number of things that I maybe could be, but for now I happen to be pretty good at investigating. And so I'm looking at the things that need investigating. I'm not saying that everybody ought to drop everything and become a paranormal investigator. And it doesn't sound like you're saying the skeptics movement should have the same scope that you have. Your scope is the scope of a paranormal investigator, not of skepticism in general. Exactly, because once the investigator has solved something, now we need, and this is where I, if I may speak frankly, in case anybody's listening, I'm not suggesting that everybody go out and investigate. In fact, they could quickly get it in each other's way. And I'm not necessarily saying that skepticism ought to be just a social club where everybody talks about things endlessly among themselves. No, no, I think that actually what we maybe really, really need is we need more people to put out more information and do something about trying to change people's dogmas and attitudes. So it's a public education work. It's not just some insular club for a besieged cognitive minority, nor is it just a kind of career track for investigators. It's this broader public education mission you're talking about. Right, I mean, I investigate because that's what I like to do and I'm good at. And it helps a whole lot if you find out what you're good at and what you like. This is, Sherlock Holmes discovered this, you know. Sherlock Holmes, oh, no way, he was fictional. Well, anyway, let's pretend he was real because in the first story he sort of explains how he became the world's only full-time consulting detective. And so we find that which we're good at. I might think it would be the best thing to be done would be brain surgery, but I don't think I'm trained for that, so maybe I'm not gonna retool there. So I think we should find out what we're good at. I know there are skeptics who want to be famous and they wanna investigate if that'll make them famous. They're lusting after television, but I would suggest that they stop that and only be investigators if they're really good at it and not just out to make a name for themselves and get some attention with some stunt to get on TV. So you've opened the can of worms leading right up to my last question and that's where paranormal investigation, scientific paranormal investigation is headed. There are these groups of amateur investigators, skeptical paranormal investigators cropping up in a few cities in the United States, even around the world. They don't necessarily have any background in investigative methods and there are actually more specialized paranormal investigators, scientific paranormal investigators than ever before, not just you and Randy but folks like Karen Stollsnow, Ben Radford, there are a number of new up and comers. So is this a good thing for skepticism? Are we actually going to be able to say, oh, there are so many of us now doing this paranormal investigation work in the field that we'll be able to just finish this business of investigating the paranormal, move on to other important issues because now there's almost like a class, a professional class of scientific paranormal investigators. Well, that remains to be seen. I don't think there are too many that I'm really impressed with but the fact is that we ought to have investigators and I'm happy if we have more investigators. Certainly I shouldn't be the only one or there shouldn't be just a handful. We need plenty because this is really a never-ending job and I've always wanted local groups. I've done workshops for different groups. Many of the people who are doing investigations now, I taught at some level. You've done regional workshops teaching people how to investigate the paranormal but you're not so optimistic that you think someone going to a couple hour workshop by you kind of gives them a Joe Nickel imprimatur that says now they are bona fide paranormal investigators. Doesn't it take more than that? It does but everybody has to start somewhere. I didn't just wake up one day and investigating with. I had to work hard and other people may be willing to do that. I have been occasionally disappointed because I thought that some investigator wasn't really willing to put in the hard work and to try to grow but look, if somebody wants to just go out and look around at a haunted house or something and get his feet wet and then he finds out it's not for him, there's no harm done really. I'm not opposed to that. I would rather see people go out and become in their area at least familiar with the paranormal places around their area so that when the newspaper calls for the obligatory Halloween story, they could say yes, I know the haunted mansion over on whatever street and yes, I've been there and here's some information about it. But that's not the same thing as saying I'm skilled in investigative methods and here's my take on the scene. Right, vacuums get filled and at least I hope they get filled. That is everywhere, there are ghost hunting clubs and so forth. So we need skeptical investigators to go out and learn something about that whole phenomenon. What's happening with haunted places? What are people getting when they're getting photographing orbs and so forth? And look, some investigations are fairly easy. I think many haunted house investigations are not very difficult. A lot of lake monster cases are not very difficult. If what you do is you go on the scene and you look around, you say, well, I went and I didn't find anything and so I don't think there's a ghost there. Well, at least you went on scene, you have at least a little credibility. You went there and gave the phenomenon a chance. That may not be very deep. It may not be the most genius thing to do. Some cases may require years and years of work. The Shroud of Turin is incredibly challenging and I've spent many, many years on it and... Right, you come at it from many different lines of evidence, radiocarbon dating, the historical record, the... It's complicated. Complicated because there are a lot of conflicting claims and very difficult, they won't let me actually examine it so I have to read tons of other... That's not the kind of thing that a local skeptic investigations club will get into but they might get into the area hotel that has maybe a mystery mongering owner who's hyping up some claim in order to get some press. So how far people go is a lot of that's up to them. When I started, I had no particular knowledge or training or anything except an insatiable curiosity and people told me I was bright. But I just decided to go and I was, as you know, inspired a lot by James Randy who's always encouraged me every step of the way over 40 years of doing this. I decided to go have a look. I didn't know what I was doing. I didn't have any great training or background. I was just a young magician and, you know, but I knew a thing or two and I learned something and then I built on that and I read more and eventually I decided to be really credible. I needed to be a detective and I went and became one on its own merits to some extent but also to further my paranormal investigation. I went back to school and got a master's of talk. I am constantly trying to gain new skills but. So we agree on this last point regarding the future of skepticism in general. It's a good thing that there's this proliferation of clubs of amateurs who want to do scientific paranormal investigation. Obviously that's a great contrast to these mystery mongering clubs, these ghost hunter clubs, you know, these regional paranormal societies or whatever that are everywhere. But on the other hand, it sounds like you're also saying cultivating some expertise is preferred. So it's not enough to just be a well-meaning amateur. You should actually learn something about investigative methods. You should actually invest in yourself as a paranormal investigator. Not just be, not just let it be your version of poker night or your comic book collection. In other words, not just a hobby. Right, I would hope that people would really want to do this because they feel they might be good at it because they think it's something it is worth doing. I've noticed that the debunkers over time, I have known many debunkers, many, many, many debunkers over my 40 years. I've watched them come and go. Eventually they become more and more frustrated, they eventually become angry and bitter, and they give it up. It's called skeptical burnout. They just burn out because they've never found the material interesting.  You say, well, what have you tried to do? What have you been, oh, I haven't investigated anything yet. I don't know, I just, but I'd really like to be on television and be famous. I mean, they've almost said it like that. Yeah, I've actually heard exactly the same sentence out of well-meaning, aspiring skeptics. Yeah, I on the other hand, don't like being on television. Right, it takes you away from the work. Yeah, I do it because it needs to be done. And I know sometimes I've been able to do pretty good work and, you know, but I've been discouraged because they've left a lot of my stuff on the cutting room floor as frustrating stuff. But I love investigating and solving a mystery. And I've solved a few recently and it's in a case or two where these have gone unsolved for many, many years. It's very rewarding, not because somebody's gonna give me a plaque next week, but I don't get a lot of money. I get a lot of everything from sniping and backstabbing even from public skeptics. So the rewards are very, very few, except the genuine reward of just feeling like, by golly, that wasn't that great to solve that. You get the psychological or the intellectual payoff of saying, I figured that out. Yeah, I love that because I really wanna know. And I find that there is a level at which investigative work can be very demanding. Some cases are not easy.  And then when you do, you risk, because I've had this happen, I don't know how many times, instead of somebody saying something complimentary, they'll say, well, that was pretty obvious. You think, right, but remember what Sherlock said, everything's obvious once it's explained. In retrospect, it all seems so crystal clear, right? Well, Joe, I feel that every time we talk, I feel like we should end each conversation with the word, et cetera, because it could go on and on. I've enjoyed spending long hours with you, and I feel like every time, we've only just scratched the surface. So I look forward to you being back on the show. Thank you for your time today on For Good Reason. Always a pleasure, DJ, thank you. Thank you for listening to this episode of For Good Reason. To get involved with an online conversation about today's show, join the discussion at ForGoodReason.org. Views expressed on the show aren't necessarily the JREF's views. Questions and comments on today's show can be sent to info at ForGoodReason.org. For Good Reason is produced by Thomas Donnelly and recorded from St. Louis, Missouri. For Good Reason's music is composed for us by Emmy Award-nominated Gary Stockdale. Christina Stevens contributed to today's show. I'm your host, DJ Grothi.


Partition 2. Section 5. Section 6. Correctors of Accidents to Procure Sleep Against Fearful Dreams, Redness, etc. When you have used all good means and helps of alternatives, avertures, diminutives, yet there will be still certain accidents to be corrected and amended, as of waking, fearful dreams flushing in the face to some ruddiness, etc. Speaking by reason of their continual cares, fears, sorrows, dry brains, is a symptom that much crucifies melancholy men, and must therefore be speedily helped, and sleep by all means procured, which sometimes is a sufficient remedy of itself without any other physics. Skankius in his observations hath an example of a woman that was so cured. The means to procure it are inward or outward. Inwardly taken are symbols or compounds. Examples as poppy, nymphia, violets, roses, lettuce, mandrake, henbane, nightshade or selanum, saffron, hemp seed, nutmegs, willows with their seeds, juice, decoctions, distilled waters, etc. Compounds are syrups or opiates, syrup of poppy, violets, verbasco, which are commonly taken with distilled waters. Requiesc Nicolae, Philonium romanum, trifera magnia, pilule, decinoglossa, discordium, ladonum, paracelsii, opium, rnus, etc. Country folks commonly make a poset of hemp seed, which fuchsia is in his herbal so much discumends, yet I have seen the good effect, and it may be used where better medicines are not to be had. Ladonum paracelsii is prescribed in two or three grains, with a dram of diascordium, which Oswald Corleus commends. Opium itself is most part used outwardly, to smell to in a ball, though commonly so taken by the Turks to the same quantity for a cordial, and at Goa in the Indies, the dose forty or fifty grains. Rulandus calls requiem Nicolae ultimum refugium, the last refuge, but of this and the rest look for peculiar receipts in victorious faventinos, erinius, hildesim, etc. Only used as oil of nutmegs by extraction, or expression with rose water to anoint the temples, oils of poppy, nenufar, mandrake, perslan, violets, all to the same purpose. Montanas, concilia twenty-four and twenty-five, much commends adoramants of opium, vinegar, and rose water. Laurentius chapter nine prescribes pommenders and nodules, see the receipts in him, codroncus, wormwood, to smell to. Unguentum alabasteritum, populeum, are used to anoint the temples, nostrils, or if they be too weak, they mix saffron and opium. Take a grain or two of opium, and dissolve it with three or four drops of rose water in a spoon, and after mingle with it as much unguentum populeum as a nut. Use it as before, or else take half a gram of opium, unguentum populeum, oil of nenufar, rose water, rose vinegar of each half an ounce, with as much virgin wax as a nut. Anoint your temples with some of it, adoram somni. Sacks of wormwood, mandrake, henbane, roses made like pillows, and laid under the patient's head, are mentioned by cardan and misaldus, to anoint the soles of the feet with the fat of a dormouse, the teeth with earwax of a dog, swine's gall, hair's ears, charms, etc. Frontlets are well known to every good wife, rose water and vinegar with a little woman's milk, and nutmegs grated upon a rose-cake applied to both temples. For an emplaster take of castorium, a dram, and a half, of opium half a scruple, mixed both together with a little water of life. Make two small plasters thereof, and apply them to the temples. Rulandus prescribes epitems and lotions of the head, with a decoction of flowers of nymphia, violet leaves, mandrake roots, henbane, white poppy. Hercules de Saxonia, stilichidia, or droppings, etc. Lotions of the feet do much avail of the said herbs. By these means, sayeth Laurentius, I think you may procure sleep to the most melancholy man in the world. Some use horse leeches behind the ears, and apply opium to the place. Baerus, book two, chapter thirteen, sets down some remedies against fearful dreams, and such as walk and talk in their sleep. De Porta, to procure pleasant dreams and quiet rest, would have you take Hippoglosa, or the herb horse-tongue, bomb, to use them, or their distilled waters after supper, etc. Such men must not eat beans, peas, garlic, onions, cabbage, venison, hair, use black wines, or any meat hard of digestion at supper, or lie on their backs, etc. Rusticus pudor, bashfulness, flushing in the face, high color, ruddiness, or common grievances, which much torture many melancholy men, when they meet a man, or come in company of their betters, strangers, after a meal, or if they drink a cup of wine or strong drink. They are as red and fleet, and sweat, as if they had been at a mayor's feast. Presertums he met was accessory, it exceeds, they think every man observes, takes notice of it, and fear alone will affect it, suspicion without any other cause. Skankius speaks of a waiting gentlewoman in the Duke of Savoy's court that was so much offended with it that she kneeled down to him, and offered Biaris a physician, all that she had, to be cured of it. And it is most true that Antony Ludovica seeth in his book de pudore, bashfulness either hurts or helps, such men, I am sure, it hurts. If it proceed from suspicion or fear, Felix Platter prescribes no other remedy but to reject and condemn it. Id populus cura ciliciat, as a worthy physician in our town, said to a friend of mine in like case, complaining without a cause, suppose one look red, what matter is it, make light of it, who observes it? If it trouble at or after meals, as drabertus, after a little exercise or stirring, for many are then hot and red in the face, or if they do nothing at all, especially women, he would have them let blood in both arms, first one then another, two or three days between, if blood abound. To use frictions of the other parts, feet especially, and washing of them, because of that consent which is between the head and the feet. And with all to refrigerate the face, by washing it often with rose, violet, nanofar, lettuce, love-age waters and the like. But the best of all is that lack virginale, or strained liquor of liturgy, it is diversely prepared. Quercetan commends the water of frog spawn for ruddiness in the face. Cratoconcilium 283, sculcii, would feign have them use all summer the conduit flowers of succary, strawberry water, roses, cupping glasses are good for the time, concilia 285 at 286, and to defecate impure blood with the infusion of senna, savoury, bomb water. Hilarious new one cured alone with the use of succary boiled and drunk for five months every morning in the summer. It is good overnight to anoint the face with hair's blood, and in the morning to wash it with strawberry and cow-slip water, the juice of distilled lemons, juice of cucumbers, or to use the seeds of melons, or kernels of peaches beaten small, or the roots of iron and mixed with wheat bran to bake it in an oven, and to crumble it in strawberry water, or to put fresh cheese curds to a red face. If it trouble them at mealtimes that flushing asoft at doth, with sweating or the like, they must avoid all violent passions and actions as laughing, etc., strong drink, and drink very little. One draught, saith Kratos, and that about the midst of their meal, avoided all times injure at salt, and especially spice and windy meat. Kratos prescribes the condite fruit of wild rose to a nobleman his patient, to be taken before dinner or supper to the quantity of a chestnut. It is made of sugar as that of quince's. The decoction of the roots of south isle before meat by the same author is much approved. To eat of a baked apple some advise, or of a preserved quince, common seed prepared with meat instead of salt, to keep down fumes, not to study or to be attentive after meals. To apply cupping-glasses to the shoulders is very good, for the other kind of ruddiness which is settled in the face with pimples, etc., because it pertains not to my subject, I will not meddle with it. I refer you to Kratos' counsels, Arnoldus, Rolande, Peter Forestus de Foucault, Book 31, Observatio II, Plateros, Mercurialis, Ulmus, Rondoletius, Aeronius, Menadus, and others that have written largely of it. Those other grievances and symptoms of headache, palpitation of heart, vertigo deliquium, etc., which trouble many melancholy men, because they are copiously handled apart in every physician, I do voluntarily omit. Partition 2, Section 5, Member 2. Where the melancholy blood possesseth the whole body with the brain, it is best to begin with bloodletting. The Greeks prescribed the median or middle vein to be opened, and so much blood to be taken away as the patient may well spare, and the cut that is made must be wide enough. The Arabians hold it fittest to be taken from that arm on which side there is more pain and heaviness in the head, if black blood issue forth bleed on. If it be clear and good, let it be instantly suppressed, because the malice of melancholy is much corrected by the goodness of the blood. If the party's strength will not admit much evacuation in this kind at once, it must be assayed again and again. If it may not be conveniently taken from the arm, it must be taken from the knees and ankles, especially to such men or women whose hemorrhoids or months have been stopped. If the malady continued, it is not a mist to evacuate in a part in the forehead, and to virgins in the ankles who are melancholy for love matters, so to widows that are much grieved and troubled with sorrow and cares, for bad blood flows in the heart and so crucifies the mind. The hemorrhoids are to be opened with an instrument or horse leeches, et cetera. See more in Montaltes, Chapter 29. Skankius hath an example of one that was cured by an accidental wound in his thigh. Much bleeding freed him from melancholy. Diet, diminutives, alternatives, cordials, correctors as before, intermixed as occasion serves. All their study must be to make a melancholy man fat, and then the cure is ended. Dietics or medicines to procure urine are prescribed by Simon this kind, hot and cold. Hot were the heat of the liver doth not forbid. Cold were the heat of the liver is very great. Amongst hot are parsley roots, lovage, fennel, et cetera. Cold, melon seeds, et cetera, with whey of goat's milk, which is the common conveyor. To purge and purify the blood, use sowthistle, succary, senna, endive, carduous benedictis, dandelion, hop, maidenhair, fumatory, buglass, borage, et cetera, with their juice, decoctions, distilled water, syrups, et cetera. Oswaldus crolius, much-admires salt of corals in this case. Andaceus erum arcagenis, which is an excellent medicine to purify the blood for all melancholy affections, falling sickness, none to be compared to it. End of section 38, recording by Sean Michael Hogan, St. John's, Newfoundland, Canada. Section 39 of the Anatomy of Melancholy Volume II. This is a LibriVox recording. All LibriVox recordings are in the public domain. For more information or to volunteer, please visit LibriVox.org, recording by Sean Michael Hogan. The Anatomy of Melancholy Volume II by Robert Burton, section 39. Partition II, section 5, member III, subsection I, cure of hypochondriacal melancholy. In this cure, as in the rest, is especially required the rectification of those six non-natural things above all, as Good Diet, which Montana's concilium 27 enjoins a French nobleman to have in a special care of it, without which all other remedies are in vain. Bloodletting is not to be used, except the patient's body be very full of blood, and that it be derived from the liver and spleen to the stomach and his vessels, then to draw it back, to cut the inner vein of either arm, some say the salvatella, and if the malady be continued to open a vein in the forehead. Preparatives and alternatives may be used as before, saving that there must be respect had as well to the liver, spleen, stomach, hypochondries, as to the heart and brain, to comfort the stomach and inner parts against wind and obstructions, by Arataeus, Galen, Isius, Orleannus, et cetera, and many latter writers, are still prescribed the decoctions of wormwood, centauri, penny-royal, betany, sodden, and whey, and daily drunk. Many have been cured by this medicine alone. Prosper alternus and some others as much magnify the water of Nile against this malady and a special good remedy for windy melancholy, for which reason be like Ptolemaeus Philadelphus when he married his daughter Baranis to the king of Assyria, as Celsus Book II records, manis impenses nili aqua meferi usit, to his great charge caused the water of Nile to be carried with her, and gave command that during her life she should use no other drink. I find those that commend use of apples in splenetic and this kind of melancholy, clams will, some call it, which, howsoever approved, must certainly be corrected of cold rawness and wind. Codroncus, in his book De Salle absin, magnifies the oil and salt of wormwood above all other remedies, which works better and speedier than any simple whatsoever, and much to be preferred before all those fulsome decoctions and infusions, which must offend by reason of their quantity. This alone in a small measure taken expels wind, and that most forcibly removes urine, cleanses the stomach of all gross humors, crudities, helps appetite, et cetera. Arnaldus, hath a wormwood wine, which he would have used, which every pharmacopia speaks of. Diminutives and purges may be taken as before of Yerah, Manah, Cassia, which Montana's concilium 230 for an Italian abbot in this kind prefers before all other symbols, and these must be often used, still abstaining from those which are more violent, lest they do exasperate the stomach, et cetera, and the mischief by that means be increased. Though in some physicians I find very strong purgers, Hellebor itself prescribed in this affection. If it long continue, vomits may be taken after meat or otherwise gently procured with warm water, oxymel, et cetera, now and then. Fuchsius, chapter 33, prescribes Hellebor, but still take heed in this malady which I have often warned of hot medicines, because, as Salvianus adds, drought follows heat, which increases the disease. And yet Baptistus Silvaticus controversy of 32 forbids cold medicines because they increase obstructions and other bad symptoms. But this varies as the parties do and is not easy to determine which to use. The stomach most part in this infirmity is cold, the liver hot, scarce therefore, which Montana insinuates concilium 229 for the Earl of Manfort, can you help the one and not hurt the other? Much discretion must be used. Take no physic at all, he concludes, without great need. Lelios Agubinus concilium for an hypochondriacal German prince used many medicines, but it was after signified to him in letters that the decoction of China and Sassafras and salt of Sassafras wrought him an incredible good. In his 108 consult, he used as happily the same remedies. This to a third might have been poison by overheating his liver and blood. For the other parts look for remedies in Savonarola, Gordonius, Massaria, Mercatus, Johnson, et cetera. One for the spleen amongst many other, I will not omit cited by Hildesheim, prescribed by Matthias Flakus and out of the authority of Benevenius. Antony Benevenius in a hypochondriacal passion cured an exceedingly great swelling of the spleen with capers alone, amite befitting that infirmity and frequent use of the water of a smith's forge.  And of such force is this water that those creatures as drink of it have commonly little or no spleen. See more excellent medicines for the spleen in him and Ludovicus Mercatus who is a great magnifier of this medicine. This calybs preparatus or steel drink is much likewise commended to this disease by Daniel Senertus, book one, part two, chapter 12, and admired by Julius Caesar Claudinus. He calls steel the proper alexifarmicum of this malady and much magnifies it, look for receipts in them. Avertures must be used to the liver and spleen and to scour the meseraic veins and they are either too open or provoke urine. You can open no place better than the hemorrhoids which if by horse leeches they be made to flow there may be again such an excellent remedy as Plotter holds. Salustris Salvian will admit no other phlebotomy but this and by his experience in a hospital which he kept he found all mad and melancholy men worse for other bloodletting. Laurentius chapter 15 calls this of horse leeches a sure remedy to empty the spleen and meseraic membrane. Only Montana's concilium 241 is against it. To other men, sayeth he, this opening of the hemorrhoid seems to be a profitable remedy. For my part I do not approve of it because it draws away the thinnest blood and leaves the thickest behind. Asius, Vidus Vidius, Mercurialus, Fuchsius recommend diuretics or such things as provoke urine as aniseeds, dill, fennel, germander, ground pine, sodden in water or drunken powder and yet Petrus Barrus is against them and so is hilarious. All melancholy men sayeth he must avoid such things as provoke urine because by them the subtyler thinnest is evacuated, the thicker matter remains. Kleisters are in good request. Trincavelius book three chapter 38 for a young nobleman esteems of them in the first place and Hercules de Saxonia is a great approver of them. I have found, sayeth he, by experience that many hypochondriacal melancholy men have been cured by the sole use of Kleisters, receipts are to be had in him. Besides those fomentations, irrigations, inunctions, or ornaments prescribed for the head, there must be the like used for the liver, spleen, stomach, hypochondrias, et cetera. In crudity, sayeth Piso, it is good to bind the stomach hard to hinder wind and to help concoction. Of inward medicines I need not speak, use the same cordials as before. In this kind of melancholy, some prescribe treacle in winter, especially before or after purges or in the spring as Avicenna. Trincavelius mythodrate, Monteltus peonisid, unicorns horn, ostoccordaceae, et cetera. Amongst topics or outward medicines, none are more precious than baths, but of them I have spoken. Fomentations to the hypochondries are very good of wine and water in which are sodden southern wood, melillo, epitime, mugwort, sena, polypidae, as also serates, placeters, liniments, assointments for the spleen, liver, and hypochondries, of which look, for examples, and lorentius, iobertus, montanus, montaltus, Hercules de Saxonia, faventinus, and so of epitems, digestive powders, bags, oils. Octavius Horatianus, book two, chapter five, prescribes scholastic cataplasms or dry purging medicines. Piso, dropices of pitch and oil of roue, applied at certain times to the stomach, to the metaphorine or part of the back which is over against the heart. Asius, synapisms. Montaltus, chapter 35, would have the thighs to be cauterized. Mercurialus prescribes beneath the knees. Leilius Agubanus, concilium 77, for a hypochondriacal Dutchman, would have the cottery made in the right thigh, and so Montanus, concilium 55. The same Montanus, concilium 34, approves of issues in the arms or hindre part of the head. Bernardus Paternus in Hildesheim would have issues made in both the thighs. Lodovicus Mercatus prescribes them near the spleen, outpropae ventriculi regimen, or in either of the thighs. Ligatures, frictions, and cupping glasses above or about the belly without scarification which Felix Platterus so much approves may be used as before. Subsection two, correctors to expel wind against costiveness, et cetera. In this kind of melancholy, one of the most offensive symptoms is wind, which as in the other species, so in this, hath great need to be corrected and expelled. The medicines to expel it are either inwardly taken or outwardly. Inwardly to expel wind are symbols or compounds. Simples are herbs, roots, et cetera, as Galanga, Gentian, Angelica, Enula, Calamus aromaticus, Valerian, Zeodotii, Iris, Condite Ginger, Aristolokii, Cicliminus, China, Detander, Pennyroyal, Rue, Calamant, Bayberries, and Bayleaves, Betany, Rosemary, Hyssop, Sabine, Centauri, Mint, Chamomile, Stakis, Agnus Castus, Broomflowers, Oregon, Orange Pills, et cetera. Spices as Saffron, Cinnamon, Bezwar Stone, Myrrh, Mace, Nutmegs, Pepper, Cloves, Ginger, Seeds of Anise, Fennel, Amnicari, Nettle, Rue, et cetera, Juniper Berries, Grana Paradisi, Compounds, Dionisum, Dia Galanga, Dia Ciminum, Dia Calamant, Electuarium de Bacchus lauri, Benedicta laxativa, Pulvis ad Status Antid Florent, Pulvis carmonativus, Aromaticum rosatum, Tricul, Mithridate, et cetera. This one caution of Gualter Bruel is to be observed in the administering of these hot medicines and dry that whilst they covet to expel wind, they do not inflame the blood and increase the disease. Sometimes, as he saith, medicines must more decline to heat, sometimes more to cold as the circumstances require and as the parties are inclined to heat or cold. Outwardly taken to expel winds are oils as of Chamomile, Rue, Bez, et cetera. Fulmentations of the hypochondries with the decoctions of Dill, Pennyroyal, Rue, Bayleaves, Cumin, et cetera. Bags of Chamomile flowers, Aniseed, Cumin, Bayes, Rue, Wormwood, Ointments of the oil of Spikennard, Wormwood, Rue, et cetera. Aroteus prescribes cataplasms of Chamomile flowers, Fennel, Aniseeds, Cumin, Rosemary, Wormwood, Leaves, et cetera. Cupping glasses applied to the hypochondries without scarification do wonderfully resolve the wind. Furnelius concilium 43 much approves of them at the lower end of the belly. Ludovicus Mercatus calls them a powerful remedy and testifies moreover out of his own knowledge how many he hath seen suddenly eased by them. Julius Caesar Cloudinus admires these cupping glasses which he calls out of Galen, a kind of enchantment they cause such present help. Empyrex have a myriad of medicines as to swallow a bullet of lead, et cetera, which I voluntarily omit. Amatus Lusitanus, for a hypochondriacal person that was extremely tormented with wind, prescribes a strange remedy. Put a pair of bellows end into a cliester pipe and applying it into the fundament, open the bowels, so draw forth the wind. Natura non admitted vacuum. Evance he was the first invented of this remedy and by means of it speedily eased a melancholy man. Of the cure of this flatuous melancholy read Moran Fianis de Flatibus, chapter 26, et pasum alias. Against headache, vertigo, vapours which ascend forth of the stomach to molest the head, read Hercules de Saxonia and others. If costiveness offend in this or any other of the three species, it is to be corrected with suppositories, cliesters, or lenitives, powder of senna, chondrite prunes, et cetera. Take as much as a nutmeg at a time, half an hour before dinner or supper. See Moran Montanis, concilium 229. Hildesheim, Petrus Canemander, and Montanis commend Cyprian terpentine, which they would have familiarly taken to the quantity of a small nut two or three hours before dinner and supper, twice or thrice a week if need be. For besides that it keeps the belly soluble, it clears the stomach, opens obstructions, cleanseth the liver, provokes urine. These, in brief, are the ordinary medicines which belong to the cure of melancholy, which, if they be used are right, no doubt may do much good. Sin an lavando saltem leniendo valent, peculiaria bene selecta, seeth passardus. A good choice of particular receipts must needs ease if not quite cure, not one, but all or most, as occasion serves. Et quae non prosun singular, multayuvant. End of Section 39. End of The Anatomy of Melancholy, Vol. 2, by Robert Burton. Recording by Sean Michael Hogan, St. John's, Newfoundland, Canada.


Does that work for you? I have to say, I'm only doing this for this.  I'm only doing this for you. OK. Hi, my name is Minnie. And I work for the Singapore Committee for UN Women. So we're the United Nations Entity for Gender Equality. So we work very hard on raising awareness on issues like ending violence against women. Here in Singapore, one in 10 women report facing violence, and that's a lot. So something needs to be done about that. We have so many migrant workers, especially domestic workers, who come to Singapore to earn a living, support their families, and get exploited by their employers. We get trafficked into Singapore. Singapore is a destination country for human trafficking. So we need to do something to change that. We work on social entrepreneurship, and, of course, getting more women into leadership. Whether it's in the community, the workplace, or the government, right? So very important issues, tons of cool stuff to do. I have an amazingly cool team, that lot in the center, jumping up and down. But even cooler is Ala Mooravit, who's standing right there. She is a doctor who is in Libya. And she is Muslim. And she talks about what religion means and how it impacts women, and not in the way you think. She's so cool. So my job lets me meet all of these amazing people. There's Professor Anso Kim, who's a mentor, who gets more girls in the STEM. Melissa Kree, who runs Beautiful People. Mentors for young women from underprivileged backgrounds. Jermaine Lim, who runs a very cool thing called Nail Social, that empowers single mothers and the rest. Who was running to be president of Afghanistan, and rather Quarella. So amazing, amazing people. And my job allows me to work with the youth and change the mindsets of tomorrow, and to create a generation that maybe doesn't subscribe to these issues. So my job would be irrelevant. Sounds like great fun, right? I'm making a difference. The world's so cool. It's amazing. What could I possibly?  So obviously, a lot of the outreach we do, because awareness building, requires events. And events are always so much fun to plan. And everybody comes, events like these, so cool, so amazing.  Let's talk about this one. For example, very cool movie called 350. It's about human trafficking. It talks about the price to get a girl in Cambodia, which is $3.50. It is actually that cheap. Very cool, very amazing. We worked with some really amazing people for the premiere of this. And everything went really well. It was a fundraiser to contribute towards events that challenge human trafficking. And everybody subscribed. The W Hotel came in. They sponsored the whole space. It was so cool. Everyone was there. The canopies were amazing. We checked everything.  So I'm going to go back. Always remember, when everything seems to be going well, you have obviously overlooked something. Half an hour before the screening starts, somebody presses something. And an entire phase goes kaput. And it's a hotel. They're really well prepared. So it all comes back. But somewhere in that, the projector, shot circuits, and we have rainbow-colored smoke going in every direction. And so we call the people. And they show up. And he goes, I think the projector is spot.  But anyway, that's. And then we're like, so what can you do about it? You know, I think it starts in half an hour. We've got all these people. They've paid a huge amount of money to support this. What do we do? And he goes, that's funny. Oh my god. You know what? I'm not going out there and telling all those people that this event is not happening. You will fix this. I will give you anything. I'll give you my firstborn child. Just fix it. And he did. It was so cool. He actually did. We started half an hour late. But he did. The event went fabulously. No one knew anything went wrong except us. That was the panel. It was amazing. Everyone thought it was the best event. The money went towards a great cause. No one knew what happened. So we do a lot with you. And you know, assemblies, for those here Singaporean schools, assemblies, massive things, right? So we were doing an assembly with 1,200 kids. And we had this amazing speaker hood come in. Only she was about four feet something. And her voice could carry you up to about there. So we show up at the school and we're like, oh my god. Look, everybody's sitting here.  And OK, she would get up there and they go, yeah. We're so sorry. Our speaker system's down. So you're going to have to talk without a mic. Oh, you know, I have a loud voice, but I can't convey my voice for 1,200 kids. So look, OK, how do we fix this? All right, so you know how the event happened? She was standing up there on that podium. I was standing next to her. She would say something. I shouted out to the audience. Then my colleague who was standing down there would shout it out to the rest of the audience. And that's how we had that event. It was fun. It was traumatizing, but it was fun. So like I said, I get to meet the coolest people, right? But you know what I want? Hey, planning that itineraries. So we run our own social entrepreneurship competition. And we have these amazingly cool people flying from all around the world for it. So there was one group. And they said, hey, OK, we're flying from Jetboard in India. I'm like, OK, we'll book you tickets from Jetboard in India. All booked, sent over. They said, look, we got invited for this conference in Bombay. So could you change my tickets from Bombay to Singapore? OK, we can do that a few weeks later. So we decided not to go. But we need to pick up something on the way. So could you change my tickets to Delhi instead? OK, fine, we'll change it to Delhi. And everything seemed OK. And then the day before we were supposed to fly out, we realized that there were floods in Delhi. So we're like, look, guys, there's floods. It's raining really heavily. There's floods. Are you sure you want to fly out of Delhi? I'm like, yep, no problem. We're going to fly out of Delhi. Are you sure? Yes, no problem. We'd rather fly out of Delhi. OK, so we call them again the morning. Are you sure? It's getting worse. Yep, we're going to fly out of Delhi. We're leaving right now in 10 minutes. Fine. So they left, and we didn't hear from them. And then we went to the airport. And they went there. And we waited. And we waited. And they didn't show up. So we called them, and the phone's off. Like, crap, what's going to happen now? OK, then we call everybody. We call the lady's father, the founder's father. And we're like, do you know where she is? No, they're on the flight. Oops. OK, so we keep going on and on like this way. And then they finally call us and say, yeah. So we got stuck on the road. And we're coming back to Jebore. And we need to fly out. OK, sure. We'll fix this right now. And then the lady comes up and says, you know, I'm so traumatized by this whole thing. I'm not coming anymore.  And yeah, they'll come and talk. But the whole point of this is we wanted you. You're the founder of the organization. No, I'm not coming. That's the moment you're just like, oh, OK. But I have to admit, the coolest person in all of this is my travel agent. I've called him at all hours of the night, any time going, you need to change the ticket right now.  This guy goes, it's OK, I mean, no problem. I'll change it for you right now. Give me five minutes. So if you ever want to do a booking, please call Alain at BCD Travel, best guy in the world. But OK, so then we had the speaker who called us and said, you know what, I'm on this cruise and I'm coming to Singapore.  And I thought, I'm coming on a holiday, why not? I can do something with you. So excited. She's one of the most amazing people I know. So yes, OK, you're coming here. That's so cool. That's so amazing. When you're coming, and we call up everybody, and we fix up 100 events with embassies and other organizations, and all cool, yes, you're coming, all right, you're fantastic. And then the day before, I messaged her, and I was like, OK, so I know that your cruise is landing at this time. And I'll be there to pick you up, just verifying that this is exactly the location you're coming to.  My husband and my colleague will never let me forget the day they got a call, where there was this high-pitched voice going, she's not coming, she's not coming, she's not coming. And I hung up. And that literally was my state for the whole day. I didn't know what to do, because I had to actually call embassies and tell them, yeah, so you know how you took so much time out and invited all these important people to come? The person they're coming to see isn't actually coming anymore. But it went much better than I thought. Everyone was really excited. They said it's OK. The next month, we had all the events again. The lady came, she was totally unrepentant, and actually asked me to buy her an iPhone, because hers wasn't working. But then, you know, when everything goes well, yes, because here you think this is what it's going to be like, right? She's talking, and everyone in the audience is going to be so happy and so excited. And it's all perfect. So we had this amazing speaker, and she was in town for five days. And the first four days went really well. Well, no, not really. She landed, and she said, oh, I'm landing in Singapore. Please don't come and pick me up, because I have family there. And they'll come, and they'll pick me up, and they'll sort everything out. And you're like, OK, fine. So she was supposed to land like 10 30 at night at around 11 30. And I called her hotel, and I'm like, hey, she checked in. They said, she came, and she left. What do you mean she left? She checked out. Huh? Where? I don't know. She didn't tell you where you're going? No. And I was sitting there crying. I lost my speaker at 12 at midnight. So she called me at 2 30 in the morning, saying that, oh, she went to the hotel, and she didn't like the room. So she checked out, and she checked herself in somewhere else. Oh, well, OK. And so, well, the next few days went really well.  So now this speaker had an issue where she couldn't have anything that had citrus in it, because she would fall very ill. And we were at the school, and someone came and offered her a glass of orange juice. Now, you aren't supposed to have something citric, and somebody offered you a glass of orange juice. What would you do? She drank it. So then, later, we're at another event, and in the middle of it, you see her going. So we were like, OK. We kind of need to wind this up and get her off the stage. And she's doubled over in pain. I'm like, OK. Go to a doctor right now, take her to the doctor, and she had to take an injection that knocked her out for the next eight hours. And she had a flight to catch, and other events to go to. And the first spot was one of them said, no. We don't believe that she's in pain. I don't care what you do. You come here, and you explain to all, I guess, why she is not here. And you answer on her behalf. But I don't know anything about what she does.  And I did. And she made a flight. Despite all of that. So even though the nonprofit world is a fantastic thing to do, it is very stressful. Very, very stressful. But that doesn't stop me. And it never will. Because ultimately, it all contributes to making the world a better place. And so, being a glutton for punishment, I now also do events for two more nonprofits. Thank you. We have time for a few questions about your quality on the stage. OK. Or I can start. A number of your stories were about people bailing on you at last minute. Was there a case where you bailed on someone at last minute? And how did you handle that? The answer to that is yes. I've bailed on someone in the last minute. But thankfully, being in this situation and knowing exactly what it does to you, it gives you the strength to say, well, OK, I'm really very sorry. I can't make it. But let me try and find you someone else who can take my place and possibly do as good a better job than I can. So yes, that's what I did.  But I did have an excuse. Like I had Salmonella poisoning. Sure. We're entirely self-funded. We don't get money from the government or the UN or from anyone else. So we fundraise to do every single thing that we do. We reach out to corporates. We reach out to individuals. And we reach out to anyone who will be willing to support the work that we do. And it is very tough because everyone wants to fund the environment and child rights. But violence against women is not sexy. I grew up in a household where I had parents who shared every task. Fantastically equal. They both worked. They both did everything at home. I'm an only child. They were really not well to do. But they brought me up and gave me everything that I needed, a very good education, the opportunity to do everything I wanted. And it pisses me off that other people don't get that. So no matter what this is, I still have the privilege of being up there, doing a job, something that gives me a purpose every day. And there are plenty of people who don't. So no matter how stressful this is, or the crazy things that happen, and these are just a few, I mean, I've done everything from running across Singapore to find one particular shoe that a speaker wanted, one. And she ultimately never wore it. But it's still, it's so cool.  And they might be crazy, but they're fun. And they're really amazing. So that's why I keep doing what I do. How did I get into it? I don't have a fun. Yeah, when I moved to Singapore seven and a half years ago, I knew I wanted to do something in women's rights, children's rights. And you and women had an internship. At that point, I applied. I was lucky enough to get it. And then I refused to leave. It's been seven years. I'm still here. I get to go out and meet more crazy people who could possibly create the world that I'm working to achieve. Many will be back at the very end for.