It doesn't, it's like when you like the spark, or. Oh, okay, we're live. Okay. Hello, everyone, welcome. Yeah, welcome. We're here at La Casa de Malagros and doing the first of four Wednesday live streams. And we're so grateful to be just sharing from the heart. And the title of our talk today is the only way out is the only way in. And it's from a Cliff Richard song, basically a song dedicated to Jesus. The only way out of this world and the only way into the kingdom of heaven is you is your guidance. Your instruction, your support. And so that's really what we were feeling when we were talking about the only way out is the only way in. And yeah, from working with Jesus so deeply, we really start to realize we have to trust and we have to follow. And then when we tune into the Holy Spirit, our path becomes very simple to listen and follow. Tune into your spirit, your intuition, tune into the Holy Spirit and then just listen and follow. It's not, it's not like a complex equation. It's not something that is difficult. It's just something that requires your willingness at first and then your dedication and devotion to stay with it throughout no matter what is going on. And so this, this is just the way that we live our lives and we have a sense of gratitude for that. Like, there's a simplicity to it that you, you can't help but feel grateful that it's that simple. And then I think the more you get into listen and follow and the more natural it becomes, then it's, it's, it's as natural as breathing and you don't, you don't have to try to analyze the guidance or, or figure it out or whatever you just tune into it and you feel it and you follow it and then you feel so happy just from that. And then that, that happiness lights, lights the way. So to be able to live a life like this, this is really a great honor because you start to see the simplicity and everybody just wants to feel loved connected. They want it to be simple instead of complex. They want it to be straightforward. They want it to be obvious. They don't want it to, to be something that's extremely difficult or filled with doubt. And this pathway is, is so good. And I think it also helps to understand that, of course, throughout the centuries, many people have been very frustrated or discontent with the world or they want out. They do want out. I had a friend of mine, Dorothy. For years, she kept saying the same thing. She would say, stop the world. I want to get off. There was something inside of her that's just like, this is too crazy to wacky. I was like, if you're on a merry-go-round, it's like, stop the merry-go-round, stop the ride. I want to get off now. Stop the world. I want to get off. And Jesus tells us, you know, there are many people that have just tried to renounce the world, but in words. So they think if I just renounce it enough, if I just talk it down, if I just say, get out of my face, just go away. If I say the words enough that it will disappear. And he's teaching us that we really don't escape this world by renouncing it just verbally. We actually have to value Christ so much so that we welcome Christ to live in our heart. And then as we welcome the Christ to live in our heart, we start to realize that the value of love that God has for us is more important than anything we could value in the world. Because when we value something in the world, it could be a job, it could be a career, it could be a family, it could be a partner, it could be a location or a climate. It doesn't matter what we value in this world. We give value to something that will pass away. We give value to something that's temporary. And then once we give value to the temporary, suddenly we have expectations about how that thing should be, or how it should be in our life more consistently, things like that. We can't really be free of the world through renouncing it in words. We actually have to forgive. We have to forgive. And I think that's the central teaching of Jesus is forgive and remember your Creator. Forgive the world and remember your Creator. But to do that on a moment by moment, day by day basis, takes a lot of faith. And there's a lot of resistance that usually comes up when you just say, I would listen, I would follow, show me the way, then there's going to be seemingly resistance and doubt thoughts that come up. We were just talking before we came down here about our journeys of faith. And I know for myself, when I really felt the presence of Jesus about 36 years ago, it was such a strong feeling in my heart. And I'd been raised in Christianity, but it just started to penetrate into my heart. Like it started, I started to really feel an inkling of, I guess, like a calling.  Oh my gosh, what is a calling? My parents never talked about a calling. We talked about educations and jobs and family and we didn't really talk about calling at the at the breakfast table, lunch, dinner. We never talked about what's your calling. But I started to feel something that felt like a calling.   It was more of a little inkling, a little nudge. And along with that sense of a calling there was, it was kind of surrounded by doubt. It was like a donut. It was like the calling was coming through the middle. But it was, it was, there was a solid ring of bread called a donut of doubts around the calling. And so, you know, we all had our doubts. I know for me, I just considered, wow, I'm going to, I'm going to follow scripture.  And I'm going to keep praying and I'm going to keep being open to be shown the way. And then initially I couldn't really hear an inner voice. So I always get signs and symbols around me, lots of signs and symbols. And they were very important because they were very convincing. If you believe in form, there's nothing better than form symbols to convince you. I know, Joni, I heard when you were coming down, you got to the airport and you still had a little and then one, two, three strong symbols and that, that makes all the difference. When you're, when you have a moment of doubt, they have three symbols. It's like, okay, all right, I got it. And that's the way it was for me at the beginning. I would get lots of signs and symbols. And then I would get prompts to travel to places I had never traveled to scary meet people that I had never met before. You know, not like family members just meet new people, strangers. Ooh, that's scary. And be open to taking steps beyond what were David's plans for David's life.  Maybe we don't have a lot of specific plans, but somebody told me recently that that for a lot of women who get married, they have visualized their wedding day for many years since they were maybe children or teenagers. They're like, wow, that's fascinating. Visualize the whole day, the color of the dress, the color of the people that are there. Maybe they don't know exactly who they're marrying, but they know there's somebody there. And there's a ceremony and it's beautiful and they'll remember it the rest of their life and that's why they're going to have lots of photographs of it to make a big album. Make sure that they never forget any detail of that day.  So you lead and I will follow. Oftentimes we don't, we don't have a specific form that we can associate with that. It's so intimate, but it's not like we can start to say this form or that form. Some people have a form with their calling. Like we just watched that brief mini movie on the Benedictine nuns up in St. Mary's Abbey. And many of them, after many visits to the Abbey or maybe a long visit to the Abbey, they would make a decision to stay. But for most people, we don't have that sense of our spiritual journey visualized and mapped out. So we just take the paper out and go, oh yeah, this is what I'm supposed to do next. But what we do feel is we do feel open enough to say, Holy Spirit, show me. Show me in any way that you can show me with signs and symbols show me with feelings. Show me with synchronicities show me with anything that is a confirmation or a verification that I'm on the right way.  Maybe you could share with everybody because that's like the turning point when you're really looking at, okay, what is my calling and how is this going to go. That's that was important for you because you wouldn't have taken the next step without that. Yeah, I mean, I was in the retreat in a long retreat with David in Australia. And I my mind at the time just filled with doubts thoughts and fear. And so I asked for one on one with David during the retreat and I just asked a lot of very specific question what about this what about this. What about, I perceive this was happening and David was answering my question, but at the same time I heard a voice auditory voice telling me that you can trust you can trust him. He's a living representation of me just trust. And, and I was kind of very surprising experience because I thought David said that. But then I look at him he was still answering my question, and he didn't break answering my question but this voice is like where is it coming from so I started to just look around but it answered a deeper way deeper question that I had which is how I can really go about this journey. Can I really trust someone that's been sent to right in my face. And then that's after the retreat. David and Jason and all the other community messengers came to my house. I hosted them and went to a supermarket with Jason and I just said you know, I know that I have. I just really want to know whether all that I had to do was to trust trust David trust you trust this this journey. If that is all I can do, you know all I have to do then I know I can do this. And he said yes, that's a confirmation to me. So that was really the, you know something solid I felt I could hear I could grasp on to at the very beginning of my journey. And then it's just roll from there one step at a time, really. There's a workbook lesson that just it's coming from Jesus saying I trust my brothers who are one with me and I know that's like a key point in any spiritual tradition but in in Christianity of course that's a key. I trust my brothers who are one with me and then the analytical part of the mind will try to break that apart. Like what does that mean. But, but ultimately, we will need a lot of signs and symbols and we will admit that in order for our trust to grow and develop in order for our faith to expand. We will admit that we are going to need lots of miracles, lots of expansion of our faith, lots of our development of trust in order to go toward the Christ, because we need to be convinced. So it's good to think of it is that you're just a willing participant with Christ willing to be convinced by Christ by the Holy Spirit, and that you can keep it that simple. But for many, you know, they basically live by a philosophy in terms of being a human being in this world that that seeing is believing. And I know Wayne Dyer flipped that around and wrote a book instead of how I'll believe it when I see it. Basically, Wayne flipped it around and said no you'll see it when you believe it. So Wayne really had his alignment there he knew that you won't perceive the witnesses. Or anything unless you have the faith, unless it's in your beliefs and your thoughts because everything in the world is a witness to our mind. And the old adage is, you know, well, yeah, I heard so and so is going to, you know, do this or that. Yeah, yeah, I'll believe it when I see it and know how I'll actually see it when I believe it. And so it's a convincing. And I was talking with Lisa because there was a time in my little peace house where you, you have your own company. She was the CEO of a nursing staffing company up in Mount Joy, Pennsylvania. How's that for the town Mount Joy spirits like Jesus has thrown in symbols where you work in Mount Joy. Okay, so, so she took it was a pretty big trip though to come down from Pennsylvania and visit me and Kathy was there and you and I and, and maybe you can tell a little bit about how you were at the place where you were beginning to open up but you were far from in, in deep, a miracle worker or deep trust.  You've gone through a lot of things just to start to feel worthy enough. about yourself. So that kind of came in to build the trust and then maybe you can share about that trip. That was, we were just recalling that this morning. Yeah, well, I, I never even left Pennsylvania, it was something huge for me to head to the peace house and following, you know, just my heart following this calling that I felt pulled, you know, follow God trust God and it was. I'm going to back up a little bit because I used to go into, I had a God room in my house, and I used to pray and pray and commune with God for many, many hours. I mean, sometimes eight hours at a time, just really just resting and feeling God's love and the sun I started hearing this message, and it was when I had my company, and really developing my trust and listening to the Holy Spirit. And I heard, and it would get louder and louder every time I would go into this communion, it would say, go to the center, go to the center, go to the center. And I was like, what does that mean and I still was seeing everything in duality and I thought, what does it mean so I just would every time I would pray go to the center, go to the center. So I actually had five women in the staff in my company that were in the office and I went in and I said listen, I keep hearing, I'm supposed to go to the center. I'm supposed to go to the center and you guys need to find out where the center is for me. And I said, let's look at where the center of, you know, the world is. I'm supposed to go. Where's the center of America. Where's the center find me all the spots of the center like globally is what I said. And they all thought I was nuts.  And, you know, I didn't really have the support they were all just like Lisa this is, you know, this is pretty radical this seems pretty crazy so, but I had this map, and it had these stars where all the center was in the different parts of the world. And, you know, I didn't really have the support so I just tucked it in my office, my desk, and just forgot about it. And so that's when David invited me to come to the peace house which was totally out of my comfort comfort zone, I was totally being stretched and it was a long time ago there was no one really there and he's talking these totally wild ideas and I'm thinking, I need to get the hell out of here. I'm thinking I'm head now. Some of the movies that I showed you. Oh, right.  Remember some of the names. Listen, the very first movie he saw, he showed me was dark city.  Right. Let's see this deal. I was feeling like my world was being dismantled, and that there was no feeling also that I was actually trusting God that I was supposed to be there I feel like you know, felt this call to go there my heart I felt, even you know with all my study was more about just really developing this faith in God and trusting, you know that he has a perfect plan for my life and you know, I was outside I was contemplating how I was going to get out of there.  Yeah I was smoking I was smoking like chain smoking out there. I got to get out of here. And then it was a miracle because David comes up well wasn't I didn't feel like it was a miracle at the time but David comes out and he says hey look. And he doesn't know anything about anything about me really. And he said hey know about this go to the center and he shows any hands me this map. And he said look I just sold these two houses on eBay. And he said they're for sale and look one of them's in the middle of North America. And one of them's right in the center of the United States I'm like, no. I was looking for hermitages for quiet contemplation but I was on eBay. You can't really buy real estate on eBay but you know you can you did. But you can bid. And so funny thing was I happened to look and it was only after I put a bid in two houses that I noticed the location of the houses they said oh by the way this house is in the geodesic. The exact very exact center of the United States and I thought that's pretty strange. The exact center of the United States. I think I bid like I think to the one that was like I don't know 600 and something or 1200 and something and then the other one was a little bit was more 5000 something like that. And then I looked at the other house that I bid on and they said this this house is in the geodesic center of North America like Canada and and United States and in Mexico North America. This was like in the very geodesic center and I happened to notice it. So I just went down. Kathy was sitting on the step you were out smoking. I didn't know what was going on in your mind. I was just like, look, I put in, I put in a bid for a hermitage to buy a little hermitage house one in the Senate. And look, once in the center of the United States and once in the center of North America. And then that was freaked out. I didn't know anything about this go to the center part. Of course we know this is all symbols because when the spirit tells you to go to the center you can only imagine intuitively what that really means. Go to the center of your heart to go to the, go to the core of your mind but these are all just symbols we're just saying because I didn't know anything she was going to he had no idea that anything about this and when he showed me the map I was in total and it was like, oh my word that God is really calling me out of this world and calling me and so David actually won the bids for eBay to purchase these houses and he said okay. Very low bids. It's like the most radical thing and he's like, we're going to go. Oh my word we're going to go and it was like, totally blowing up my plan my thoughts my ideas of what I thought my path was going to look like and it was just. Yeah, just was the beginning of me really stepping completely out of my comfort zone and really putting all my faith in God, you know that it wasn't my plan. But it was this adventure that I went on with you and Kathy, and it was almost like I went into kind of an exorcism, because they were so loving to me in the car they would, they would be like singing. You know and this is not like a couple hour trip this was like three four days across the country to. So we were in this little car going across the country, and all the whole time they were saying, oh we love you so much Lisa. You know just, and I was really just wearing kind of a mass trying to keep it together but all long I was having just all this fear and all this doubt and all this not understanding really what was happening. You have to understand the context to because like Lisa said, she had pretty much lived in the same area of Pennsylvania, most of her life, and she didn't travel and she didn't have a lot of friends and she wasn't a world traveler she wasn't a country world traveler she was the very local she lived in Amish country anybody here the Amish she she was way out there Mount joy company and Mount joy and living in with the Amish, who are very simple people worshippers of Jesus. And so, for me, and for Kathy at the time we were used to taking trips and going wherever we were invited to churches and bookstores and basements and backyards and barbecues and anything and going on long trips of meeting hundreds and hundreds of people devoted to Jesus and and sharing the light of Jesus with with hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of them so that was just our natural life and then you were taking time out from your CEO position from your, you know, as a nursing staffing company to take a big leap to even come. And then the symbols of go to the center. I didn't think I mean I just put some low bids on there on eBay but I didn't think I would win. And I was the high bidder. And so off, we went to Kansas across I 74 and then I 70 but that's the context for it so there was so many miracles which I had been quite used to Kathy and I were having so many miracles of things but for you. It was good because it was kind of slowly looking washing away self doubt doubt around smoking cigarettes or doubt around meeting new people. That was like a whole bunch of new people to that was, you were used to your family and, and basically your, your, your business, your nurses. This was like going from a tiny little doubt of people to like opening up very, very fast. And that's, I think was part of it, because there was a lot of unworthiness that was under there to that was kind of getting flushed up. We had miracles around that to I think in St. Louis. And, and just like it was my dream, really when I would pray my, my happy dream was that I wanted to go share the good news around the whole world I felt that it was my life calling when I, when I, when I was reading just all this, you know, and experiencing just all this forgiveness and I thought this is all that I want to talk about this is all that I want to do and, and then you showing up doing exactly what my heart calling was, was like oh I even said that to you the very first time. I met you I said oh my God, I said this is exactly what I want to do. I said you're doing exactly what I want to do it and was within five minutes of me meeting him and he said, come on let's go. I'm like, oh my God. That's exactly what the patient came out. Let's go. I'm like hold up. I have a life. You know, and, but yeah just even the trip for me it was just like all this love and all this experience of just talking about God talking I couldn't believe it was like I would there was no compromise and that and flushing up so much unworthiness so so much shame and so much just this whole identity that I had back in the past but that I was just sitting talking about God but also your love. It was so beautiful because Kathy she was someone in the early years and she was just this joy girl and like she was a symbol that that you know I needed in the beginning because she was like so happy and you guys would they'd be singing in the car and I'd be driving in the back and and it would get so intense at times. I couldn't take it because I was like trapped in the car for days and all this love that you guys I mean and then you were that Oman and Shanti song we played over and over and over again and and then at one point. I really felt I didn't know what was happening but it's kind of like an extra system in a bit like a purification was happening where I started to get really ill in the back of the car.    And then you said well why don't we just put pillows all around you. So I was in the back of the car, and you guys put all these pillows all around me. It's like a genie bottle with lots of pillows so she could be. So I could like hide. You know, like I could just be back there and I didn't have to. There was so much love. Really, I know that that's what it was was like this fear of love, and this fear of just being so intimate. It ended up being while we had so many holy it was a miracle it was like this freedom, because we went and so we took this journey across the country which I thought was totally bizarre and radically bought these houses on eBay. And that we were buying these houses, and they were like shacks in the middle of nowhere. But all I mean literally you should see the first one we I think we bought for $600. Like what are we doing. First they didn't even believe me like no. You're sitting so on I bid I won. But I just follow my prompts because for me it wasn't unusual when things started to happen and come that were kind of out of pattern experiences. Because for me I was just trusting that everything was to expand my faith. Everything was to expand my trust. So I wasn't judging things by the world and when things would just seem to come to me, which had happened a lot. Then I just thought oh this is thank you. Thank you Jesus Wow this is really going to be an expensive thing like I wasn't so concerned about buying the houses I just knew to go from Cincinnati out to the middle of Kansas. I thought think of all the brothers and sisters I will meet all the joy. Think of all the places I'll get to shine my life you know it wasn't about when we got there you know even if they said well you. You can't you know we don't have eBay is not a legally binding place to buy you have to have realtors and you know you have to have a closing and. Even if they'd said it's not there I would have been what a trip we had though right you know it's like into the joy of connecting and meeting people and sharing the joy and sharing whatever the spirit wants to bring. So, for me it was I was so used to that. I mean I started doing that I think already. I took took some trips around 1989 and then another one in 90 and then in 1991. I was taking off for weeks at a time five and a half weeks six weeks on these kind of trips. So for me, I was kind of in the middle of all these miraculous experiences where Jesus was going before me and I was just going to follow and meet. Beloved everywhere I went and I was all over the United States. So I think we're talking like was it early 2000s. So this is like a decade later after I've been swallowed up in the miracle. I've just I've already. I'm like Jonah in the whale. I'm in the whale. I'm really in the belly of the whale of of miracles and this is like a decade later where through a lot of miracles we came together and then you coming down that was a big step though to come down.  And look, it's still this is many years. This is 33 decades later, and they're still knocked off. So, but this was that was the feeling I was having like, oh my gosh, this is how it is to live in in Jesus guided by Jesus where everything is handled taken care of people invite you to their houses. You know, they, I think most of the times people think of a church they think of like a building with a with a steeple and everything. But there are literally lots of what in Christianity is called house churches. In my case, I just met people that were devoted to Jesus and would invite me into their house more so than churches or anything else. I've been in more houses than I have been in in churches, actually, but they were like little devoted houses that were dedicated to Jesus and living the teachings of Jesus.  That's what they call it in Christianity house churches where they meet and go through scripture and so on and so forth. So I was a whole decade into this and then when you came into it, it was just there was fear of love. There was, you know, in a truest way, there's an intimacy and a connection of being in this saturated in this miracle. And to turn it back to, you know, I've been raised in Christianity deeply into miracles from 1986 and here we are. This is the 2000. So for me, this is many, many, many, many, many years after my dive deep dive. And that's why I think for you it was kind of a contrast experience.  But for Lisa, this was kind of a trip that would bring up a huge amount of fear and resistance because she was like stepping into what me for me Holy encounters were that was what the days were for. They weren't for anything else. I didn't really care about really any kind of outcomes in the world. I wasn't really trying to pursue or achieve or accomplish anything. I was just trying to live in the moment with Jesus and dive deeper into the heart of Christ. And so I could tell, though, that that's always why I'm brought together with anybody is just for this deep healing of learning how to to follow Jesus. And one of the things of unworthiness that you brought up when we were traveling was this idea of going and meeting all these brothers and sisters and the cigarettes you were like, I smoke.  I smoke a lot. And when I'm afraid I chain smoke. I chain smoke. Are you, are you okay with that? And I said, yeah, I said, I actually said, let's just give the cigarettes to Jesus. That's what I said. See what Jesus will do with the cigarettes. Well, the whole trip. Lisa was brought together with cigarette smokers. And she was almost astonished. She could not believe there was that many cigarette smokers. We went to a friend of mine who had a very large house, a mansion in St. Louis. And we're in this big central room which holds a lot of people because it's such a huge mansion. And then we would be in there and then when we would take a break. Lisa would go out to light up. She would go look for the nearest door, which she would do in her daily life, look for the door and she would go. She would go out the door by herself and she would go light up. And guess what? People, other smokers would come and follow Lisa out there. And they're all out there smoking, talking about God. There's a crowd out there. Yeah. Smoking and talking about God. Remember what I said? Let's give the cigarettes to Jesus. There they were. She, that was kind of a neat experience for you because you were like, I can't believe it. There's smokers. We're meeting smokers and they're, and I'm still, we're talking about God and we're still smoking. So for you, it seemed like everywhere we went, there was like a group of them that would just kind of navigate to me and start lighting up.  They were like, thank God you smoke because this is intense. They were going through their own guilt and unworthy. Oh, thank you. This is great. I'm like, yeah, it is. When we got out to Kansas, we're like, who actually owns the house and everything and it was a husband and a wife. And so we went to meet them because we couldn't even get into the house that we paid several hundred dollars for six hundred dollars or whatever it was. And, and sure enough, the wife, I think, wasn't it the wife of the, the guy lights up even even out in the middle of the center of the United States. There it was still going on.  It just backdrop like a props on a stage that that the spirit Jesus can use to to help you connect based on what you believe at the time. And now that's that's water under the bridge and many years later. But that's how it goes. I think that's the joy of starting to realize that.  And Jesus is so loving that he will meet you right where you believe you are with what you believe is important in this world and what you believe you value. That's the love, the unconditional love. It wouldn't be able to reach your awareness if it was over if you couldn't relate to it. You see, it's got the guidance always has to be something that you can relate to. And that's the way that it's continued on, you know, even even now, even here. At La Casa de Milagros, you might say that every day is an experience to let spirit reach you with where you believe you are right now. And also to expand your faith, expand your trust in ways that you don't even know, you don't even know the how, but you do know that it's it's inevitable because that's that's your goal. That's your purpose. Yeah, and I think it's also to even here at La Casa that's what's like your being, being going into an experience more of being done through with the spirit, finding out the purpose like that's what on that trip for me really was more than anything that I was getting to to talk about God and nothing else like it was almost like in my company I had to talk about finances I had to talk about nurses I had to talk about all these other things but it was like almost like I was given this beautiful trip of that that's all that I got to talk about that I was being used solely just to be used, you know, as a vehicle for God, and using my mouth in that way. It was an interesting experience because I know, you know, it was always, you know, a compromise. I didn't even know it was such a contrast experience. You know that experience where I could just talk about God, talk about God, talk about God and then I went home it's like, okay and then go back to my company and they're like talking about financials and it's like, you know, my mouth started like what are we doing. You know, I want to talk about God. You know I had this experience of so much joy, talking about forgiveness and talking about the parables that it was an experience I thought oh my word you know that I could live the rest of my life just talking about God that's what I want to do. And so there was even an experience when I went back, there was supposed to be a quarterly, I used to do these quarterly meetings and I had 150 nurses that worked for me, and they, they said we have this quarterly meeting, you know they had prepared everything and they're like, we got to have this big meeting for all these nurses and I was always the one that held the big meeting and I'm like, oh my word. And so I went ahead and I did it. I got up there and all these nurses were there and there was actually a church across the street where we used to have the meeting. And I could see this church steeple in my office window and I used to pray with it all the time just pray to Jesus show me, show me, show me. So what's the next thing for me to do but so we had these meetings over there and yeah and I got up in front of everyone and there's all these nurses and they brought their children I would let them bring their children and the children were on one side of this like auditorium in this church. And so I get up and I, I stand up there and I look at this. It looked like braille. I couldn't even I looked down at the paper. And I looked up at the nurses, and I actually went into some kind of like, like my mouth would not move. I, and I was frozen in front of all of my staff. And I was frozen up there and I'm like, I'm not going to be able to do this. And so I call my nurse manager. She was sitting in the audience I said, Heather you're going to have to come up here.   And so I went back to the back of the auditorium sitting there and I'm like, Jesus, what in the world is happening. I have no idea what's happening like I couldn't speak. That's what happened. I couldn't speak what this paper, you know, for these nursing regulations and all stuff. And I heard, I'm like, Jesus, what is going on my heart's pounding and he said, gather the children and go into the church and I'm like, what, what are you saying. And I'm sitting there and I mean I'm literally frozen. And I heard, gather the children and go into the church. I'm not walking over there and gathered because these children are right in the back. And I thought there is no way that I am going to do that. And then I'm pounding and I said gather the children and go into the church. And so I'm like, oh my God. And so I stand up and I walk over to these children. And I said, come on, I said, because the church, this like conference room was attached to the church. And so I said, come on. I said, I walked there. I said, come on, we're going to go into the church because they were there playing. And these children did even question and the meeting was going on, like everything was running fine. And I go over with these children and we walk in is this old little chapel. And I walk in and these little children, they just, all of them just sat in the pews, like so obedient, like they had no question. And I thought, oh my God, and I went up to the top of the church there and I went and where the, what do you call the thing there, the, what, where the preacher stands. The pulpit. I went up to, so I thought, okay, so I'm here with these children and all of a sudden I said, oh my God, and I said, I want to sing about the joy, let's sing about the joy. And they're like, yes. And I go, I started singing, I got the joy, joy, joy, joy, down in my heart. And these children, it was so mystical because I felt like they were my audience. And that's who I wanted to talk to. And I, and I thought this, I want to talk about God, and I want to sing and I want to be in the joy. And I don't want to compromise. And, and, like, I thought, I'm just going to, I don't even know what's happening, God, but I'm just going to trust this. I'm just going to trust and it was so funny because the meeting ended and, and all the nurses were coming walking through this church, and they didn't even question anything. They, they were like, come on, Johnny, let's go. Thank you. You know, they would be like, thank you.  I never want to talk about anything. I don't ever want to use my mouth for anything but just to sing the praises of God. And, yeah, and it was so beautiful because my, my nursing people, the ones in my office that came out, they were, they saw what's going on. I said, I'm going to tell you, I'm never talking about this ever again. I'll never do another staff meeting ever again. I said, that's not what I'm supposed to be doing anymore. I'm and I remember this Deb girl, she goes, don't do that. Oh my God, it's going to be the end of the company. You know, what, what are you, I said, I just can't do it anymore. I'm not going to do it anymore. And I didn't ever actually do it anymore. I thought, you know what, I'm going to trust God that this joy in my heart, and that this experience of believing and having faith. And his, he does want me to be happy and that I don't have to compromise. And it was willing to let it all go. And I said, I'll never do it again.  It's like we're walking through this, you know, prison of our mind and trusting God with all of our heart that he, his will is for us to be happy. It's not, it's not some good idea. It's a living experience that we can experience his freedom that we finally become in alignment with God. That's what it's about. I'm in alignment with God. I'm living my life in union with God in communion in community and that that that that is worth everything to believe that I feel so grateful for my minister crying. I feel so grateful for my life that I did trust God enough to walk through those. There's, you know, the feelings that are so uncomfortable of shame and doubt and unworthiness and, you know, really have the relationship with the Holy Spirit and say, I'm going to hand it to you I'm going to trust this instead. And I don't know where this is leading. And I can say that it's led me into the most miraculous life, you know, and it, you know, and it's a narrow path. It's a very narrow path, but it is worthy to trust God with all of our heart, because he will remove all of it, and that he wants us to be happy. And then it's like finally you become in alignment. And now it's like, okay, this is what God's life was for me. It was never my plan. I would could have never planned this ever in my my my my plans are so me to compare to God's plan. He is a glorious plan for our life and it's a life of abundance, and it's not in form. It's it's about an abundant state of mind that is continual and keeps deepening even today as we're opening up into these lives these new he's always got something new and fresh it's a it's a new beginning every day and, and it is it's going to expand you into these areas of your mind that you don't even know that are possible. And I'm so grateful. I'm so grateful to put all of my faith in God. That's my testimony. Amen. You were going to say some Francis.  There, we didn't, we didn't even need to, to be ready for God, but God is ready for us and through our companions to send the person to our lives and then all that we need to do is to say yes and then we get taken on this right. And then just even that made you realize that everything else is a compromise. That's why this this journey with Jesus is no compromise of any kind because anything else, not knowing God not knowing our secure place in the heart of God is compromise. So we are when we're like here being busy and pursuing little this and little that is actually living such a compromise, not even knowing our real calling is none of this. And it really doesn't matter what our backgrounds are, because truly I can say it from my bottom of my heart that all everybody, everyone's is the Holy Spirit. This whole world is calling for the Holy Spirit to be to be the voice for God for all of them to be able to remember our identity in God, and everything else is is a compromise. So it's like you can't even go back because the contrast experience is so, so obvious. And, you know, even Jesus says this whole world should only has the purpose of awakening for the Son of God or healing the Son of God and any other purpose you give to this world would imprison you to pain and death. And then I was just listening to the parables. When, when David was saying, Oh, I'm just buying a house because I was told, or I'm just thinking of the brothers and the joy of meeting the brother there's no other purpose that's given to any activity of every single day of our life. And when that is unified, then your experience become unified because this experience is constantly to look for if you desire only love you would find nothing else.  I feel like just even listening to these parables like Oh my God. Yeah, that's how we all started to unwind from from these false beliefs not of our own effort, not our own knowledge pre study, none of it. It's just the spirit orchestrating it. Yeah, I think, I think that's why, because our burning passion is to know Christ and our burning passion is to be in alignment with God as Jesus was because that is so much of a burning burning burning calling that we begin to become aware of certain things. One of them is, let's talk about scripture.  And the Torah, which predates, it's the older parts that we could say a lot of the Bible and Jesus coming and the Gospels go back to the Torah. And the Torah was very much a scripture and the rabbis and the people who who work with the Torah basically were into two things. And that was study. There was a lot of studying of the Torah and dialogue. And that was part of the main core of Judaism to reach God through study and dialogue. And to this day, if you went over to Israel and you went to the rabbis, you would see that in many countries have tradition of studying the Torah and and dialoguing and dialoguing. I'm not talking 10 minute dialogues, I'm talking they will dialogue for hours, because the purpose is to reach God if that's your means, and you give everything to the means. And I think when Jesus came, Jesus would say things like, you focus on the letter of the law, but not the spirit of the law. He was teaching us that love was transcendent to the words. Love was transcendent to the dialogues that he would go and pray and commune with God.  So I think there came a point in my life and in our lives, basically we started to realize that that that the study was helpful. And the dialogue was extremely helpful, but it came down to listen and follow like there were inner prompts to follow there were these nudges that that were there to be followed almost like this. The Holy Spirit is saying here I'll throw the breadcrumbs out for you. And you just follow the breadcrumbs here's one and follow that and then here's another one follow that. So my journey was one where yes it was heavily involved in scripture and then it got more to listen follow. And it got so far into that it became so much an alignment that that it just all merged together it all kind of morph together so that I wasn't seeing the world in terms of dialogue and scripture and study and and meeting brothers and sisters and whatever, or even breathing. You know, I felt like, Wow, I want to merge in the heart of Christ and that experience is one that is reached through prayer, deeper and deeper and deeper prayer, not prayer for things of the world but prayer for an experience prayer for a direct experience imagine just praying. I remember one time I, I was in Salt Lake City and we went to the Mormon temple in Salt Lake City and I was with a group of people, and we're walking and I think there was like a water main break, and so they were trying to redirect people. And so where I had maybe there was myself and maybe like six, seven other people Lisa I think you were there were you there on that trip that trip to. So we're walking around water main broke so and you know with the Mormon religion they have the, they send the disciples out the missionaries. So there were missionaries dressed in their missionary clothes, their missionary dresses and their pants and white shirts. We were surrounded by missionaries there was hundreds of them around. And so I'm, but to me everybody's the same. I don't care if I'm with hundreds of Mormon missionaries or I'm just out meeting Jehovah Witnesses or people on the street people's and in gas stations restaurants stores, all over the place. So we're there, and suddenly these two female missionaries come up, and they kind of come to our group. I thought maybe they were going to direct us away from a water main break or whatever but no they weren't here to tell us anything about the water main break they were here to engage us fully. I love it. When people are there to engage you fully. So they walk up and they start looking at us and I looked at one of the women and I could see like a sparkle in her eye. This woman was not just a Mormon missionary she was on fire for Jesus. I have had great encounters with people where we just come together and like a blaze we both go up into blaze talking about Jesus, because we're such really enjoy. And she was very, very sincere. So, so I watched these two and they talked with us a little bit and then finally the one whose eyes were sparkling she kind of looked around she looked in the eyes of everyone in our group. And then she looked around and then she made a direct invitation with her finger, looking in everybody's eyes and she said, Will you pray with me. Will you pray with me. So she went around and she was like looking individually will you pray with me. Will you pray with me. Will you pray with me. I remember she came to Lisa. Will you pray with me for the first time in her life Lisa was like, I took a step back. I didn't matter if she was the CEO of a company. Will you pray with me.  And then she kind of and she looked right in the eyes she said, Will you pray with me to be right in the eye. Yes, I pray unceasingly to it. Oh, it's so good. You know she. Maybe that was the answer she was waiting for her whole life. Will you pray with me. Yes, I pray unceasingly. And I, I love these encounters, you know, I have fun all the time and you get me with a really deep sincere Mormon missionary eyeball eyeball eyeball. Now we're talking. Now you're getting into some fun. The beautiful thing was that that when you start to realize this is your whole life and of course it. It's doesn't seem to fit into the world. Because the world's all about what planning the future. Right. I mean, if you got a million people or 10 million people or 100 million people. I just read yesterday that that they've estimated we just crossed over now the world population now is crossed into 8 billion. I have to always change my, my, my words. What we're up to. I thought it was 7.8. No, it's eight. It's the name now we crossed over a couple days ago 8 billion, but out of the 8 billion will say, most of the 8 billion are into survival image. Career jobs. Future goals. You know, you can fill in the blanks at most of the 8 billion are into that, but there's something underneath that. That's a calling that's saying, wake up to remember who you are wake up to remember your creator don't for a moment delay that calling, because it's so important. In fact, that's our only purpose really of the whole world is to know God. There's really absolutely no other purpose. You know, when you start to really go deeper into that at first you can be like, that's a little bit exclusive, but the problem with exclusiveness is God is entirely inclusive. The creator is inclusive. And if you would devote your life to the creator you're devoting yourself to inclusive love, unconditional love, a gap a love, pure love, and there can be nothing else. It's like everything. So, so when you go deeper, then you start to kind of look to people who have also gone deeper and that's why right now we're talking a lot about Christian mysticism and with every culture and and religion. There's there's mysticism branches but but that just when somebody asked me one time like what's a mystic I said that's just one who's devoted to God. I mean I always go for the most simple definition. You don't have to throw theology and a bunch of other stuff onto it just means devotion to God. So Christian mysticism would just be devotion to know the Christ and devotion to know God that that would be the simple definition. And then when you go deeper and you look at those who have dedicated and there's quite a few through the centuries, not a lot but there's, there's bits and pieces and handfuls here and there over many, many centuries. You start to see that Wow, these mystics oftentimes would do things that most of the 8 billion wouldn't consider doing. What's an example of something that a mystic would consider doing that most of the 8 billion wouldn't even think of doing it has not really crossed their mind of doing. What's an example, the 8 billion say what, and then the mystics go. Yes, let's talk about vows. Some of you have heard we watched a movie the other day with a convent, the Benedictine sisters very deep, very devotional. But we didn't really see as much in that movie but, but nuns are asked to take vows. And the probably the three most common vows of of nuns and saints and monks and those throughout the many centuries are poverty, chastity and obedience and and I could do a whole week talk on each of those vows. What is the actual meaning of poverty, because it's not material poverty but it is non possession. It's lived a life of non possession. St. Francis is another one other Teresa non possession means not to own. I mean in the truest sense. We could say that if you give it over to to the spirit you're basically giving all of time and space over and saying these are all just symbols of theater of the world. I would own and possess none of them but I would give them to you to teach me how to forgive the world. That's basically what poverty is chastity. If you look up chastity in the dictionary. Chastity is is basically the definition starts off with purity of thought. That's actually if you go to the dictionary and you look up chastity those are the first three words you'll find purity of thought. Then it will say in in relation to sexual matters but still the core of it like I said before Jesus taught that in the Sermon on the Mount. Blessed are the pure of heart for they shall see God and he's talking about purity of thought because everything that we perceive is a result of our thoughts. And only by purifying our thoughts having no thoughts that are apart from God.  Poverty, chastity and obedience. Oh, the one that that the eight billion hate the most is obedience by far. That comes out everyone's like oh my God. No, I'm not definitely, you know, my cat doesn't even like obedience. My dog doesn't even like obedience. Why would I go for obedience, but obedience is just obedience to your intuitive self obedience to the spirit obedience to the Holy Holy Spirit to Jesus. That's what the obedience is it's not obedience in some kind of a way that locks you in to something it actually sets you free. And if you knew the meaning of obedience wouldn't you want to be set free. But see we don't equate obedience with freedom. We equate obedience with imprisonment. You see how twisted this world is, but that's the original meaning of poverty, chastity, obedience. Supposing I said that the only purpose that there is is to forgive and to serve God. And maybe I could tell you that it's not even defined to a particular theology or a particular philosophy or psychology. Maybe we could go to Disney to get an example of of this because everybody likes Walt Disney most everybody Walt Disney. Did anybody ever see the movie the Disney movie Aladdin or hear of it Aladdin. There's a song in Aladdin that says I can show you the world shining shimmering splendid. Tell me princess when did you last let your heart decide. Whoa, imagine that that's God took calling you. I can show you the world. I can show you the real world. I can show you the happy dream. I can show you a world without judgment, a world where you feel free, you feel connected because of your alignment with God because your hearts lined up with God. That's where it comes. That's the new world. That's the they call it in science, the quantum field where everything is connected that that is what we're going for is total 100% connection, no division, no doubt, no conflict, absolute certainty. And and even if we hear it from a Disney song, even if you have no other connection until you hear that Disney song, and then you. Oh my goodness, your heart starts to swirl when you hear the Disney song. Show me a new world whole new world a new fantastic point of view. Yeah, it's a it's a different perspective. It's a different perspective on your brothers and sisters. It's a different perspective on the world. So suddenly, you start to realize that everything that you once believed starts to be reinterpreted. According to this higher perspective, according to this higher purpose, according to this calling, and you're grateful for the scripture because the scripture was like your trampoline. The scripture got you bouncing higher and higher. But trampolines are not meant to be lived on. They're just springboards. You're not supposed to camp out and actually live on the trampoline. You're actually supposed to spring. And what we're talking about is bringing into that joy springing into that happiness and that freedom. And as for the 8 billion, you know, the truth is never about numbers. And the truth is actually transcends people. It transcends the world continents and governments. It transcends. It transcends theology. It transcends psychology philosophy. It transcends science. We take your breath away. If you as you go into the direct experience of God of oneness of love, then everything else fades away. But you have to be willing to just say in this moment, okay, I would but listen and follow you. God, Jesus, spirit, I would listen and follow you. And the second part is I don't really want to have any set plans for the future because my direct connection with you right now is more important than my content. My concepts of the future, my concepts of how the future is going to turn out. You see how how that takes us in much more directly into the direct experience. It's that's the whole freedom to me. That's the whole freedom. And that's that's why we're here. That's why when we, you know, we're doing a live stream 1098. I don't care. 8 billion 7 billion 6 billion 5, you know, it we're not counting down to anything. We are here now. That's all Ram Dass wrote a great book years ago called be here now. And that is a profound title for your entire life. We were talking, because yesterday we were talking, we were thinking, we want to do a website and do ministerial programs and, and, and everything when I do, let's do, let's do everything with it. If it can handle it, let's do everything with this thing. And then we said, well, we need to come up with a website. I said, wait, I was like, I said, wait a minute, we have a, we have a website. It's called the hyphen Christ.net. I said, that will work. And then everyone was saying, Christ, okay, the Christ is in the name of the website. And I said, that's our name. That's our name. Our name is Christ. Our name is Christ. It was fun, that website that is our name that just came out of my mouth. You said it's not, it's not Jesus is the last name is our name. It's feel, whoa, it's our name. And, and that's part of what that's why you, you listen and follow that's why you forgive, you just do it to remember the Christ, remember the Christ, it's so important. So, wow, that's our, that's our presentation. We're going to stream something. Let's stream it stream it to the whole world. We're grateful for our name, our shared names. Yeah. Well, thank you that is that's the end of our live stream but we have our beloveds here. Dearly beloveds, we are gathered here to remember the presence of God, but we will say goodbye to our live streaming audience and then we begin our interactions with our name with ourselves. Yeah. Yeah, our name is our identity. So, thank you.


Live from Cambridge, Massachusetts, extracting the signal from the noise. It's theCUBE covering the MIT Chief Data Officer and Information Quality Symposium. Now your host, Dave Vellante. Welcome back to Cambridge, Massachusetts everybody. I'm Dave Vellante, and this is theCUBE's SiliconANGLE Wikibon's continuous coverage of MIT IQ. MIT IQ stands for the Information Quality Symposium. Become the Chief Data Officer Symposium. It's my pleasure to have Flavio Perez and Mario Cervi who are with KeyBros. Flavio is the president and CEO. Mario is the project director and assessor. Gentlemen, welcome to theCUBE, good to see you. Thank you very much. So KeyBros, very interesting initiative. We were talking off camera about it. Flavio, maybe you could tell us about KeyBros. What is it and why was it formed? Yeah, we have founded it in 2010 with the support of Professor Richard and with the mission of disseminating the culture of data quality and data management in Brazil. Since then we had four international conference and many courses of IQ and data management there. So the initiative was formed to try to create awareness about data quality and promote that notion of data quality. What was the relationship Mario with MIT? Rich Wang helped get you started? We started to work with data problems in the beginning of the 90s. And then in the beginning of 2000 years we knew the IQ program here and we started to come from 2003 to attend conferences, courses and Professor Wang encouraged us to create an IQ association in Brazil to promote the culture there and we did it in 2000 then. But we are here in every conference and almost every year since 2003. So it's important to bring the ideas, the new concepts, the state of the art and data management to our region. So how did you fund the initiative? How do you pay for it? Yeah, it's really a... We were with Professor Richard and he said we must create, we must disseminate the culture in Brazil. It's interesting for the United States and it's very interesting. We said it's very interesting to Brazil too. So we started to talk about and we created the foundation. With the support of many companies in Brazil and we have the participation, most of the people that participate in QIBRAZ is from the industry. We have few people from the university, few people from the government, but almost all the companies are from the initiative. Big financial services presence, obviously. Yes, financial services, direct marketing and strategic marketing, consultants, also media agencies and we have good support there from those companies. And so what kind of activities do you and services do you sort of provide the community? Maybe you could talk about that a little bit. We offer data management courses, training and annual conferences and we always bring at least four international speakers, mostly from USA. Professor Wang has been in three of our four conferences. Professor Young Lee, Professor Stalbert, they have already been there. So, and we have also local speakers talking about cases, local cases in this field of data quality and data management. Now how did you guys get at this? And in our conference we had, in average, 300 attendees. So good size, I mean it's comparable to this event. Yeah. Okay. Now, are you data guys? How did you get involved in this career? We are from IT, our background is in computer science and now we discovered data as a passion, you know, to work with data to support business. We are more working more with business people than IT people. What about the chief data officer role in Brazil? We've met Mario, he's been on the queue, he was the first CDO and... Mario Fadio, yes. He was the first CDO. Around the mid 2000 companies there started to create the customer data departments. Then it became, these areas became the CDO and Mario Fadio was the first one but we already have another 40, around 30 or 40 companies with CDOs so far. So, obviously the companies in your region are receptive to this idea, they're supporting your initiative. What are the big challenges that they're facing and how are you helping them through that? Well, we have the challenges there, are quite similar what we hear but our market is not so mature but we face the same type of problems. We have the problem of data ownership, we have a conflict with IT and other Cs in the companies. But people are, there is getting aware of the importance of managing data outside of the IT sphere. So, you're going on, you're progressing. So, what are some of the things that you're excited about working on, upcoming initiatives, what are the things that you want to accomplish probably for your organization? Keep it on the kitchen to catch it on. The objective is to spread the culture, to gather more companies discussing the subjects of data management and to give in our region the status data management has together. So, we are trying to bring as many companies as we can to our society to discuss data management issues. So, keep growing, how many organizations are involved in Cuba today? Around those 310s represent around 50, 55 companies, mostly of them based in Sao Paulo but from all over the country, other companies too. And you were saying before, Mario, that the challenges are the same, the issues are similar, what are the differences? I think that our market is not so mature in data management as the market here in the USA. So, we have steps to go ahead but we are, I think that if we follow the concepts and the discussions here, we can bring ideas there and get this maturity a little bit faster. We have, our culture is in the beginning yet and the way we are doing now is to have an approach to big associations like DMA in Brazil, they have a very big association to do together an approach to the companies. So... You know DMA, Drudeck Marketing Association? Yeah, sure. We have a chapter there they are helping us to spread the culture among their associations. So there's a lot of talk at this event and others about data as a liability, data as an asset, you know, and that conversation seems to be leaning more these days toward marketing and data as an asset. Jeff Humberbacher from Facebook is very famous, he was one of the Cloudera saying that he's a young, brilliant mind. He said the best minds of my generation are spending their time trying to figure out how to get people to click on Google ads. But of course we see a lot of examples around here particularly in healthcare, government, financial services with fraud. What do you see in terms of the sentiment within your constituents in terms of how they view the opportunity versus the liability? What is data to them? Is data a problem that has to be managed? Is it an opportunity that can be mined? No, I think it's time more seen as an opportunity to support decisions, to support customer relationship, to support MDM initiatives, you know, mostly focused in customer, okay? So I think that there is room for growing. How do people measure the value of data? It's hard, normally they don't. Normally they don't, right, that's true. So it's too uncertain how to measure value, how to calculate ROA and ROI. So we are beginning discussions on this area, it's too, because there's certainly a desire to do that, it's just not a standardized way of doing it maybe, or an accepted way maybe. At least to justify the projects. So a lot of it's still done on gut feel, is that right? Yeah, I think so, good. All right, any final thoughts on this conference? Well, the conference is getting every year better and we are very pleased to come here every year to see people talking and to see the progress of data cult and data management area. Very nice to be here. Thank you. Yeah, my pleasure, Flavio Amaria, thanks for coming to theCUBE, it was great to meet you. Thank you. All right, keep right there, everybody, we'll be back with our next guest. Right after this is to theCUBE, we're live from MIT in Cambridge, Mass. We'll be right back.


How to find optimal permutations for generalized type 2 feistal schemes. This is joint work between Victor Cauchois, Clément Gomes, and Gael Doma. And Gael will give the talk. And so this paper wins the runner-up award for the longest title. There is tomorrow one paper with one character more in the title, but you almost won. OK. Thank you for the introduction. So this talk is about type 2 feistal permutation and type 2 feistal schemes and how to find the best permutations in the feistal. So I assume you already know what feistal network do. Your task as a designer is to construct a cipher, a permutation, or something like this. And the state may be big. So you do. I will only do the part of the work. I will only do this on half the block. And then to influence the other block, I will absorb my output to the other half. And since it is not enough, or no problem, I iterate. And this is quite a popular design. And it was generalized at the end of the 1980s. And this time, instead of dividing the state into two blocks, you divide it into k blocks, which means you have more functions, but they are much simpler. And after that, you swap in some manner the different blocks. So in the original paper, the swap was simply a rotation. But we can actually do more than that. And again, this is a very popular design with different number of blocks. But the problem with this construction is how many ones do you have to do before you have some kind of diffusion? So here, what do I mean by diffusion? I'm talking about what's called maximum diffusion round. And basically, you look, for example, at the first block. And you follow the different hours. And you will count how many blocks you have influenced after a center number of ones. So here, after one round, you have influenced two blocks, then three, then five, and things like seven. And here, after five turns, you've influenced every block. And so you say that the diffusion round for the first block is five. And you do that for every other block. Here, we have, here, we need six rounds, et cetera, et cetera. So the idea behind this criterion is to kind of a first sieve criterion for choosing a permutation for a five-stone network. Because it's for a first sieve because it's very easy to compute. But it's maybe not exactly very precise to assess the security of the cipher. But it's nonetheless a link with many attacks, which are very powerful against generalized five-stone structure, like impossible attacks and saturation attacks. And of course, it was done for encryption, but you can do the same for decryption. And you say that the maximum diffusion round, or dr for short, of the permutation pi here is this permutation. So the pointer is one out of battery. You say so that the diffusion round for this permutation is six. And so there is a seminal paper on how to improve the diffusion of five-stone network, which was done by Suzuki and Minimatsu and presented at FSC 2010. And what was their main focus? Was there the idea that the permutation you use, oh, you have two kind of blocks. You have blocks that are at the input of a function and blocks that are at the output. And the blocks that help diffusion are the even ones. And the odd ones play a less important role, shall we say. So the heuristic would be that, oh, between two rounds, let's swap the roles of these two kind of blocks. That's what we call even odd, general five-stone networks, where you send the even blocks to the odd blocks and vice versa. And they conducted an exhaustive search of a permutation of two-six in block and proved that contrary to the first results, where here you would simply rotate the blocks by using a different permutation. You can actually have a much faster diffusion. And moreover, they gave a generic construction with a diffusion logarithmic in the number of blocks. And so what are our contributions? Our contribution is we give an upper bound and more than that, a constructive upper bound on how many even odd GFS we have up to some notion of equivalence. Using this constructive method, we can do the exhaustive search for up to 24 blocks. When exhaustive search is out of reach, we define a new criterion to reduce the search space, which we call cohesion-free-def. And in a few words, it means that we want to have a special criterion for the first few rounds of diffusion. We'll revisit the generic construction of Suzuki and Minimetsu, where we can, in some cases, improve the result by one round. That's the bottom results here. We go from 12 to 11 and 14 to 13. And we also study the case of non-even odd permutations. So I said we study GFS up to equivalence. What is equivalence of GFS? It's very simple, you have a GFS, and let's say you want to exchange the walls of different blocks, so you swap them. That doesn't change the cryptographic property, you're just changing how your number, your blocks. So this is an equivalence relation. But in fact, if you do that naively, you end up with something that doesn't look like a type II general five-stale anymore. That is where you have this structure of one function every two blocks. So to keep this structure, you have to permute using a special kind of permutation, which we call a permutation of pairs, where you basically swap blocks by packets of two. Just for the notation, I call this set SKP, K is the number of blocks and P is for pair. And so we have a notion of pair equivalence that is pi one and pi two. The two permutations here are equivalent if and only if they are conjugated with each other with one of these pair equivalent permutations. So how many permutations do we have up to this notion of equivalence? Well, the first thing to notice is that if you have an even odd permutation, you can write it as two smaller permutations over K over two elements. Simply, the first one tells you where you send the even elements and the second tells you where you send the odd elements. And so this means that the number of classes, well, is trivially upper bounded by how many permutations you have. And the lower bound is actually comes actually from the fact that since you're using equivalence relation on the SEO set, which have the K over two factorial square element, and you have permutate, you are, ah, sorry. You have equivalence up to a set with K over two elements. That is permutation of pairs, big blocks. So you have in total, at least, K over two factorial equivalence classes. But in fact, the idea is that you don't have to exhaust all these big sets. You can reduce the search space where the first permutation, pi one, can be simply in one, single one in a conjugacy class of S K over two. It is regular conjugacy class. And so you save up K over two factorial that to be placed by the number of conjugacy clays in the permutation group over K over two element. And to see how big this saving is, you go from factorial K over two to something that is in bigger of exponential square root of K. And so we did as a search using this method. So here from six to 24 are the best of the diffusion one of the best permutation that exists. So up to 16, that are the results of Sasaki and Minematsu. And after that, that is our results. And we also computed how many classes there are that are optimal. And we can see a little bit strange. That is for 18 blocks, there are only two optimal permutations. For 22, there are four. And they have a diffusion one of eight. But in between there is that 20 that has a diffusion one of nine, but there are a huge number of them. And so what happens here? In fact, there is a problem with lower bound. It is that before any doing actual exhaustive search, you can have a lower bound on how many rounds you will need. And this lower bound, in fact, can be seen as follows. So for each round, you will be counting how many blocks you have influenced. So here after zero round, you have computed, you have a single, let's call it an active block. Here you have one, two, three, five. And if I could continue naively, you would think, oh, that's a Fibonacci sequence. I'm gonna have an eight. No, I have a seven. Why? Because there has been a collision between two blocks. That is, you have something that you would have expect to have this kind of half the block separate in two with respect to diffusion. But here that does not happen because you have two different paths influence the same block. And so you have this lower bound, say if you have no collisions, you have the Fibonacci sequence. And so basically you have that, if you look the Fibonacci number, the dr, the drth Fibonacci numbers times two must be at least equal to the number of blocks. And so based on this idea, when the exhaustive test is intractable, we try to reduce the search base to permutation where the number of collisions in the first few rounds is very small or does not happen at all, in fact. And so there's this new criterion which we call collision-free depth or CD for short, which is basically the number of rounds before any collision happened. So here the collision-free depth is, for this particular block is three, but if you were to begin on the block before, this is four rounds, sorry, but if you were to begin on the blocks to the left, that would be three. So the collision-free depth for this particular permutation is three. And so for all the permutations, we computed what was a collision-free depth and classified it. So here are the results. Because of that Fibonacci bound, we also have a bound on the collision-free depth, which is given on the third round. And so from this result, we can see that, okay, there, except for maybe for the 18, but there are only two permutations, maybe a nut layer here, we can almost always find permutations with a high collision-free depth, which means that it's maybe a relevant criterion. But again, it seems that most permutations don't have a very high collision-free depth. So there is some kind of trade-off between how much, how big the search space is and the optimality of your results you may find. And in particular, there is a very interesting case, which is the case for K equals 26. So as I said before, this case is too big for a just search. But if you look at the Fibonacci bound, 26 divided by two is 13, and 13 is a Fibonacci number. And with that, there may be a problem with the bound here, that may be not Fibonacci of eight, but maybe Fibonacci of eight minus one, but never mind the reasoning is correct. And so if you wanted to have a permutation on 26 blocks with a diffusion round of eight, you would need an optimal collision-free depth, that is no collision until the last round. And we can actually test if such a thing exists using exhaustive search. So we perform exhaustive search for any permutation with a collision-free depth, at least four, and the best result we found was 10. So this proves that the best permutation cannot have a diffusion round of eight. It must be either nine or 10. And so we transform our algorithm to perform this random search, and we use it with a collision-free depth of three, which was the biggest value we had not tested yet, and found one result with nine, which is then optimal. So this means that the collision-free depth is indeed a useful criterion for finding permutations. To look a little bit, to have a look a bit more detail in what we do, if you have your Feistel network here, if you're simulant in the things a bit and look at what happens on block zero, you have that block zero influence, well, block zero when you went for the function, but also block three, three influence six, et cetera, et cetera. And so basically the idea of collision-free depth is the number of ones, the number of steps you can do before the given number appears twice on one of the leaves. But in fact, this representation is a bit tedious to handle because you have that kind of unbalanced graph. And as was already done in the Suzuki and Minimatsu paper, you can represent Feistel network by considering blocks by sets of two. So you consider only a kind of super block that we group block zero and one, block two and three, block four and five, block six and seven. And this nicely simplifies into a balanced binary tree. And the advantage of this representation, well, it's a binary tree, binary trees are cool. You have fewer nodes because you're grouping blocks by two. So overall it's something really more simple than what you had before. But the major inconvenience is that it does not represent a unique permutation because here you lost information of when you said that the super block zero influences the super block one, that is the edge on the right. You do not know if this is done with even to odd edge or with an odd to even edge. So you need additional information which you can represent as a graph coloring of this tree with two colors, one for even to odd and one for odd to even. And actually what was used in the Suzuki Minimatsu paper to construct this kind of graph is the so-called the brain graph. And the brain graph is simply a graph with two to the N nodes. The nodes are labeled using all the binary numbers with N bits. So here is the case for N equals to two. So you have zero zero zero one one zero and one one. And you draw an edge. As the following you take, for example, zero zero, you drop the leftmost bit, so you end up with zero. And if you add the label on the edge to form the label of the new node. So zero zero drops the leftmost zero, add a zero to the right, to the right, sorry. You end up still on zero zero. Zero zero drops the leftmost zero, add a one to the right, you end up on zero one, et cetera, et cetera. And if you translate that in terms of our tree representation, it simply means that you're feeling the tree with the least possible numbers. So this is kind of a way to avoid collisions on the first ones. And how do you color it? Well, for this particular example, you don't have much choice up to swapping the color of blues and red.  This also means that on the tree representation you go left means red and right means blue. But this is the coloring used in the Suzuki and Minimatsu paper. But actually you can exhaust all the possible coloring with a complexity of two to the K over four. And we did this for K up to 128. And we obtained better results. We can gain one round for the 64 and 128 blocks for the value of K, 64 and 128. And so until now I've spoken about the upper bound, the exhaustive charge, the criterion of collision three-dev and the graph coloring ID. I have not spoken about the non-even odd permutations.  Basically, most of the previous, most of the previous ideas still work. That is, since they are based on graphs, you can define the graph for the FISOL. You can follow the line that works roughly the same. So collision three-dev stays the same. You can adapt the graph coloring IDs. Of course, you still have the question of what graph do you choose. And for the number of classes, so in the even odd case, you had this inequality. And for the general case, you have something that is like this. So what's most interesting is the upper bound. NK is the number of conjugacy class. And the second is the number of representative of the Y-coset of SK mode, mode of the K blocks permutation, modulo permutation of pairs where you swap permutations by super blocks, in fact. So we can again do exhaustive search. We did this and we found, and surprisingly, as was noticed in the Suzuki and Minimetsu's paper, that non-even odd permutations are generally worse than even odd permutations. So in conclusion, we studied type two generalized FISOL structures, where in fact we studied permutations up to per equivalence. We gave an upper bound on them, a constructive upper bound, which allowed us to run exhaustive search for up to 24 blocks, for the even odd case, or 20 for the general case. And we introduced the collision depth criterion, which is the criterion when you want to avoid collision in the first few rounds. And finally, we analyzed the graph constructions on the divine graph, and you proved the result for K equals 64 and 128. Thank you for your attention. Do you have any questions? Thank you very much. No questions. I will ask you questions. So you look at the optimal diffusion. Did they have special structure or do they look more like random graphs? Sorry. Do you have optimal solutions? Do they have special structure if you look at them or are they random? Well, that depends for some number of blocks. There are thousands of solutions, so we did not look at all of them. And for the K equals 18, there are only two, but I don't remember if they have any structure. So I also have a question about your definition of full diffusion. So, I mean, of course, the left-right trick solves it a bit. But I mean, if there is a linear dependency, just it goes to an X or to the next round. That also seems as full diffusion. But of course, if it goes to an F function, there is much more diffusion among the bits. Does your analysis take this into account or you just say... No, we just see the F function as a kind of black box and we assume there are... But you don't distinguish between X or an F function diffusion or any more questions? If not, let's thank Galvin, all the other speakers of this session for interesting thoughts. Thank you.