Live from New York, it's theCUBE, covering Inforum 2016, brought to you by Inforum. Now, here's your host, Dave Vellante. Welcome back to New York City, everybody. This is theCUBE, theCUBE, we go out to the events and every now and then we just have these great special segments and this is one of them. Naomi Tutu is here, she's a social activist, the daughter of the famous Desmond Tutu. Laura Logan is here, Laura is, of course, 60 minutes correspondent and Karina Holicum, when you hear her story, you won't believe it, super athlete. Ladies, welcome to theCUBE, it's really a pleasure having you on. Thank you. So we're here at Inforum, Charles Phillips somehow and the Inforum team, you know, gather some, always gather interesting people and Naomi, I'll start with you.  Y'all happen to be women, but it's not just a story about women, we're going to talk about the human condition and what's happening in the world and how to affect change. So, Naomi, tell us a little bit about, you know, your background and some of the challenges that you had to overcome. Well, I mean, I think that clearly my background is as a Black South African who grew up during apartheid with that system that basically said that Black South Africans were not Black South Africans, that we were not members of our own country. And coming out of that experience and the struggle against apartheid has been foundational for me in terms of looking at how terrible our world can be and how amazing our world can be and the people who take the time and the commitment to change the terrible into good. And you grew up in the heart of that time period. I remember your father was very much outspoken against, for example, the Reagan policies of... Constructive engagement. Constructive engagement, they call it. He said, no, you know, bring on the pain because we'll at least suffer with a purpose. That kind of dogma, if you will, is actually good dogma in a way, isn't it? Well, I mean, I think that there is a point where you have to decide that there is something you are willing to stand up for. And I think that the call for sanctions against apartheid South Africa, we're basically saying Black South Africans are already suffering. And right now we are suffering in a system that offers us nothing. At least we know that economic pressure brought on the South African government is pressure that is working towards our liberation. And so I think that that example shows is basically that people are not short-sighted in general. I think that we often play to people's short-sightedness in saying that is the enemy. This is what you need to be afraid of if only we had our country back. But the reality is that most people are not short-sighted and people say, what do we need to do to make this world better? Maybe not for me, but maybe for my children coming after me. And Larry, your experiences, obviously, you know a lot about this era from a different perspective, but also in your own world have overcome incredible adversity. Tell us a little bit about, I mean, everybody knows who you are and sees you on 60 minutes, but maybe they don't know much about your background. I think one thing that people probably don't really know and understand who I am is that for me to sit with Naomi and to meet Naomi today is such a big thing. It's such an emotional thing because I knew her parents in South Africa working as a journalist. I knew her father particularly well, but I met her mother in her home in the Soweto Township where I think was your family home growing up. And people like Desmond Tutu, for me, have never been recognized enough for how great they were and what they gave to all of us. Many people thought the revolution in South Africa was only about liberating and freeing black people, but it wasn't because all of the people of South Africa whose hearts were in that struggle were liberated and free, Mandela and Tutu and all of those people, the activists right down to the student activists I mean I knew South Africans, black South African kids who spent their lives traveling from school to school to deliver the message of comrade Mandela in those schools and they lived on the run and they were hunted by the security police and they gave up everything and that message was always the same. It never varied from Mandela to Tutu to all the way down through the ranks of the ANC because it was one that resonated with all of us because it was about freedom and justice and human rights and my soul honestly was forged in the fire of that struggle and everything I've done since I left South Africa, everything I've been able to do in my life, everything I've been able to overcome, surviving, being gang raped in Taria Square in Egypt, all of that was born from the example that was set by people like Naomi and her parents and every black South African at that time because they all suspended everything of their own in favor of the greater good. There was no talk about child abuse or domestic violence or things like that, nothing of that nature ever made it into the national conversation because black South Africans particularly put everything aside for that fight, for that struggle and so the greatest lessons of my life were born there and that place gave birth to me and gave me the ability to put myself in someone else's shoes and I've used those lessons everywhere I've gone and I've always been well received in Afghanistan or Iraq or all of these places because I've never gone in with a closed heart because black people in South Africa opened my heart and opened my mind and taught me how to think and see things from other perspectives and helped me understand that my way wasn't the only way or the way I knew that was familiar might not be the best way, sometimes it might be but I never apologize for who I am. I always stand up for what I believe in. I was raised in a country of people who stood up for what they believed in and paid and gave everything for that. Literally gave everything. So those early days were the seed of your inspiration and a lot of it was rooted in non-violence of course as an underpinning, there was a lot of violence of course at the time. Well the violence for us, you know I grew up thinking that the police and the army were only instruments of evil, I never understood them any other way and I had to unlearn that lesson in many respects because for example the American military that's often demonized but I can tell you I've lost count of the situations that I've been in where the level of professionalism and humanity that has been shown by the American military is so counter to the Hollywood narrative that's out there that everyone joins the military because they like to kill people and don't care about human rights and don't care about doing any good. I've never found that to be true and I really had to unlearn those lessons of seeing the South African military as the architect of evil and grow up I guess and understand the many different shades of that. All right Karina let's bring you into the conversation. Your story may not be as well known but it's no less amazing. So. Or more amazing. Super athlete, more amazing, right? Super athlete went through just an amazing experience near death experience. Tell us about your background and how you're still here. Yeah, well I just feel so humble sitting next to these two women. Imagine being me. Yeah, I don't know where to start. I mean I came from my mother when I was four years old she had a major accident, car accident that I was part of and we had a front to front collision and she was put in a coma for four months and when she woke up from that coma she had to relearn how to walk. She had to relearn how to talk. She had to start all over from scratch and she had lost all members. She had no idea who even who I was. So for me like she survived her accident but as a mother she was taken away from me and for me like I became a very restless kid and I think that restlessness somehow had to, you know I had to get it out somehow and I got this urge into finding the things that I could master. And eventually I got into base jumping, I got into big mountain skiing and this was a way for me to channel my everyday life or coping with my everyday life because going to the mountains, jumping off of a cliff, being in a situation where I felt like I could control life and death. It made me feel like all of my everyday problems they felt mundane and small and they were nothing in comparison because I had this strength and I could master this situation. So for me it was my way of dealing, you know. And I lived in a dream world, you know. I traveled the world as a professional base jumper and a free skier. I was filming with some of the biggest companies in the world, documentaries, action movies, sponsored from top to toe. It was a dream. And then I had a major accident in 2006. I hit the ground with more than 65 miles per hour. I crushed everything that I had from my hips and down, 25 open fractures. And I was sentenced to a life in a wheelchair. My doctor, he told me that I would never walk again.  It's, all your friends are doing the same like you do, but most importantly, it's your identity and all of that is taken away from you just like that. You're left with nothing and you need to start from scratch. You need to start to rebuild yourself. You need to redefine your values. You need to figure out who am I when I no longer have my two legs. What's going to happen with my friends? Are they going to be there for me? Are they going to still be around? Am I ever going to be able to have a family of my own? You know, you get all these questions and there are no answers.  And it took me three years to learn how to walk. And it took me four years to make it back to the mountains, to my passion, to skiing and to like, to come back where I belong. And I've been continuing to work with that and to kind of rebuild my life and find out who I want to be. And then of course inspire others. So in the years after your accident, it's obviously very personal, you're inside your own head wondering if you'll ever be able to walk again, will you be able to have a family? But then how have you used that then as a springboard to help other people?  But I do believe that my story is universal because we all go through adversities in life. We all have our own personal challenges, you know? And I realized by telling my story, by being honest and naked, you know, to all these strangers and by revealing my weakness, then that would be, I would be able to help and inspire other people to believe in themselves, to try to find their own passion, find out what makes them happy. And you know, maybe even teach them like what I would or not teach them but tell them what helped for me and what actually made me continue on my journey. And you know, I'm thinking that if my story and the fact that I'm telling it and using my experience now into inspiring others, if I can help one person to go through his or her adversities, if I can make one person change his or her life for the better, it's worthwhile, you know? And my story has been a good thing. So the discourse in the United States anyway today is such a polarizing, you know, conversation. But for example, you have, on the one hand, Black Lives Matter movement, on the other hand, people trying to question the need for that movement. And it becomes a, really not even a rational conversation. It becomes sort of a heated debate that's quite irrational. Why is that? Why can't we have a rational conversation about such critical issues? And should we? Well, I mean, yes, I think that we need to. And I think that the conversation is actually not Black Lives Matter as much as it's a conversation about race and racism in this country. And I think that the conversation about Black Lives Matter, if it does one thing, it is to highlight the fact that we haven't as a US, as the country ever really had a conversation about race and racism and US history and the role that race and racism has played in US history economically, politically, socially, all of those things. And so we go through these cycles almost where we kind of start the conversation and then something happens and we say, well, we don't need the conversation actually. Everything is fine. And then something happens and we kind of start the conversation. But I mean, I think that it's very clear to me that it is a fundamental conversation that we need as a country now as much as we ever have in the past. I think that there was, with the election of President Obama, there was a conversation about a post-racial US, which was never true. But I mean, what it did bring up, I think, is that it brought out the residual racism in places that we thought it had seized to exist, or at least that it had been buried deeply enough that it wasn't going to bother anybody. Well, I don't know if you all were taught in grade school or high school about Africa, I was, and we learned a lot about Europe. Never learned anything about it. Of course, you weren't educated. We grew up in Africa. Young children. We didn't learn much about Africa on the continent either, no, no, no. So African history is, I don't, you know, I had to go to South Africa to learn about it. We had to educate ourselves. We had to educate ourselves. In Europe, we do, and we learn about, yes, we do. And for me, I mean, we just had a brief conversation about it because watching the news, I mean, coming from Norway, coming from Europe, we obviously live in a completely different world and we have a totally different relationship to the police. We have a different relationship to black people, to, I don't know, to all, to me, we're all people. And of course, we have racism in Norway as everywhere else in the world, but it's so, I, it's not understandable that we can actually treat people like that.  It's like a kid, it's a kid, it's still a kid. And I don't understand how we can see and not see the kid that we all see, I mean. But Laura, aren't we making progress? Or are we just not making progress fast enough or are we just going sideways? Well, you know, for me as a white South African growing up in a country that was the pariah of the world, I actually grew up thinking that racism was a South African thing. I didn't know any better. And I thought when I left the borders of South Africa that I would be leaving racism behind. And instead, what I found was that it was everywhere. And it has helped me understand many conflicts. When I was in Kosovo, and I would listen to the Serbian people talk about the Albanians, you could have substituted black and white in that conversation. And it was so, it was easy for me to identify what that conflict was really about at its heart was that the Serbs don't view the Albanians as human beings. They see them as less and as worthless. And you know, you can have the same conversation in Australia. And when I came to the United States, I was shocked to find that people, when I went to places like Atlanta, people would say, well, that's, you know, the black side of Atlanta, and that's the white side. And I was like, what? Wait, say that to me again. And that was really an education for me. And I found that our lives in South Africa were much more integrated in many, many respects than in the United States, just because you had 40 million or so black people and five million or so white people. And so a degree in level of integration that's unheard of in many parts of America was normal in South Africa, even under apartheid. And that didn't explain or excuse the racist side of the ideology that existed at the time. But so for me, and I'm always very careful because you know, I'm not American and I didn't grow up here, but my children are born here and my husband is American and my life is invested in the values that make America the South African constitution that was written in part by Naomi's father and certainly was formed by his actions and the commitment that he made throughout his life is based on the United States constitution. And one thing I like to tell people here is you may have learned about the constitution growing up in high school, but I lived that. I was on the streets of South Africa when you would have 50,000, 100,000, 150,000 people come to protest for Nelson Mandela and would walk holding hands, singing the A&C's national anthem which was banned at the time and literally have the riot police and watch people fall as the bullets hit them and rubber bullets can kill. And I would go into the homes of people whose children had died protesting and had been executed in the back of their head and their bodies cast aside by the South African police. And so for me, freedom of speech is not something theoretical. It's not something academic. It's not a great idea that the forefathers came up with. It's something that lives and breathes in my blood and in my DNA and in my dreams and in everything that makes me human.  You like to go to war. I don't like to go to war. I like to go to places where those values are being tested. And I believe what Mandela always taught and Tutu lived that the people are the founders of the democracy. And I think the sheriff in Dallas just said a similar thing in his press conference recently. Democracy is nothing without the people. That we hold our leaders accountable. And if we don't hold our leaders accountable and if we don't hold our press accountable, then we don't have democracy. You have some fake version of it. And I think sometimes people have forgotten that. That freedom isn't free. And that means many different things. But it means getting off your butt and getting out there and standing up for what you believe in in one form or way or another. So I'm not so... I don't think it's my place to say whether we've made... Have we made... Who is we? Have we made progress? Have we not? I can tell you one of the senior black people in law enforcement and the FBI said to me on my way when I saw him on my way here, his version of it, compared to one of the black guys in New York on the street last night was talking to me about last night. And their views were so different. And I looked at CNN last night and they had three black congressmen from those districts all talking about that. But you do have three black congressmen representing those districts. And that counts for something. But it doesn't mean that everything is fixed. One of my closest friends in the United States chose where she was going to live specifically because she had two black babies and she didn't want her sons growing up in a certain part of New York where she said I wasn't going to have a moment's peace knowing that they were out on those streets. So she took them to a Jewish neighborhood. Why Jewish neighborhood? You know, of Scarstale because she felt that they'd be safer there. So there's one thing I learned in my job is that the closer you get to an issue, the more complex it becomes. My mother used to say the older I get, the less I know. The more you learn, right? The more you learn, the less you know. Okay, so unfortunately we're out of time. I could go forever with you three amazing women. But last question, maybe each of you could address. I'd like to know one thing though because I always like to start with the little things. And I would like to learn from you two. If I were to do one thing, you know, to make the situation better, to try to eliminate the fear of the black people, of apartheid, of racism. What would I do if I wanted to start, just little by little to make it better? How could I do that? Well, talking as a black person, I always say that for me the first step that I would like people to make is to acknowledge that racism exists. Because I think that so very often that we're up against people saying, well, you're just imagining all of this. And the practical ways, I mean, so one practical way for me which I've asked of people is that when you see, when you're in a shop, for instance, and you see security following a black woman, which is my experience, I'm shopping, and all of a sudden security is, for some reason, I look particularly suspicious. That when you see that and you see me turn and ask the security guard, why is it you're following me in particular? And then they say something like, oh, I wasn't following you in particular. Why are you, you see, you're getting all the, say, no. As a white person to stand and say, I saw that too. And I am going to make, I'm going to make it clear that this is not some crazy, angry black woman playing out here in the department store, the grocery store. This is a reality of people's lives. And again, as you say, it's one small step and it makes a difference in one person's life in that particular instance. But it also is a step of, say, acknowledging that racism is something that exists in our communities. It's a real tangible frustration, isn't it? That is a great insight. From people of color that you talk to get pulled over, you can hear their sense of frustration and they say, you as a white person don't understand what it's like. You have to say, I certainly don't. But unfortunately, I say, we have to leave it there. Thank you so much, Naomi. Thank you, Mara, and Karina for coming on the Cube. Great to meet you all. And just so we don't get into trouble, the other side of that is I have a friend whose husband is a policeman who every time he walks out the door every night, she doesn't know if he's coming home. I'm glad you mentioned that. And she lives in that kind of fear, you know? Anybody who puts on a uniform. Which is not justifying. And I'm also saying, but that's not the other side of the story, that's my point is that they're a black policeman, but it's like, each time we talk about racism, it's as though we're saying, we're attacking the police, which has never been what black- You should be able to talk about these things without that. But I also believe that it has a lot to do with information, lack of information. Like you're saying that you're not even taught in school. And we do naturally have fear of the unknown. And I fear everything that I don't know anything about. And so if I don't know about South Africa, if I don't learn from school, I will naturally have fear because I don't understand you. I don't see you, you're different from me. So that's where for me, it began at home, where I was raised in a home where we were taught not to fear anything. And we were taught to be open to people and we were taught to listen and we were taught to know what we stood for and not be afraid to stand up for that. And that's the universal thing that you talk about, right? That's the thing that you can take anywhere. And so for one small thing I can do is make sure my children don't see color. Their whole lives they've had, we've had people sleeping in our house from Africa, from Afghanistan, from everywhere. They learn all about little bits about different religions. They have African costumes in their closets. They have traditional Pashtun dress. And they learn about everything. And I'm honest with them with the things I don't like about it. I don't want my daughter to grow up wearing a burqa, not allowed to have a driver's license or anything. You know, I'm honest about the fact that I don't like that. I don't think political correctness means you have to say that everything about everyone else is wonderful. To me, it's about those things that bind all of us that are universally good and universally just. And you have to have the courage to stand up for that and also have the courage to say, you know what, I don't actually believe in that side of it. I don't actually think that that's right. And that's the next step of the conversation. It's not enough to just all hold hands and sing kumbaya and say, oh, everybody's great and we accept everybody and it's all wonderful. I did a panel with a representative of the Dalai Lama and the Chief Rabbi of the United States and one of the senior archbishops in the country and all these different religions. Every religion was represented. And about halfway through, I said, okay, enough. Enough of this conversation. Let's talk about what you don't like about each other's religions. Because that's what separates us. It's not that we like about each other and accept about each other and doesn't frighten us about each other. That creates the problems. It's what we don't. And that conversation broke down very quickly at that point and it went from being a love fest to very clearly. Now you started to see that each person thought their religion was superior in some way. But it leads to understanding as well. And that's what it leads to, understanding. That you have to understand that in order to be able to change the conversation at all. Wonderful. All right, thank you all for coming on theCUBE. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Keep it right there, everybody. We'll be back. Wow, what a great segment.


Alright ladies and gentlemen, here's the last one. We're gonna cover a couple more pieces here We're gonna go a little bit more broad with this one because of how the end of this video shapes up But I think you get the idea so I never signed an agreement about how we're gonna terminate the contract We're nothing. As far as Stephen knows, he's going all out for months. That bugger is gonna get so good I gotta tell you about this recent plan.  We're gonna use this thing called mega managers Basically, they just need to go around telling people When people are having up when they're doing wrong. In fact, when they even think about doing wrong I want the managers to get completely up there Reinforcement there's enough reinforcement the only thing that we got to worry about for reinforcement as you get in your darn paycheck I'm not gonna tell you what I'm doing. You'll see.  I like to drink all afternoon afternoon and evening So here we go a little more crown for the night about my time. I don't care what they do I don't care how they do it. I don't give to It all about what's going on around is probably the time that I should start feeling like I should exit the bar All right, folks. I mean, let's just be realistic, okay? I mean, we'll just take all these little ethical violations here We don't follow it. All right and push them over here because we got them all okay Well, at least maybe not all of them But the point being we really covered a lot in that particular subsection It's it's kind of hard to break them out into the individual pieces So you're gonna have to go back and look in a little more detail But we're looking at number four number five is really the focus There's also some other ones that came in from earlier in terms of like knowing when to terminate contracts and things like that So so really with regard to five. I mean I talk about the mega managers I'm like I got all these different people. I'm trying to supervise or gonna work Do you really think I have the ability to do a lot? One person trying to manage all those plus I've got a whole bunch of BCBAs underneath me that are trying to do it as well That's that's functionally impossible. It's not it's not It's not even realistic to be able to implement a program that large with that many people involved It's just it's too much for I mean with all of the just all of the ethical codes and for that's why we put the whole stack there I mean really I'm talking about reinforcement being unaffective and not even bothering with it and like who cares We have no did clear. We have no clear definitions We have nothing it's just everything about the program that we've developed is completely wrong, right? It's not based on science. It's not based on there's not enough may probably not have measurement going on There's not like I said, no be clear beginning and end The we don't care about the outcomes for the client. We don't care about anything We just kind of keep things going in order to to make as much money as possible. So So I mean my brain's gone. There's hippo violations. There's ever there's ever it's crazy So obviously the funny part in the video is that? Everybody in the bar over time had kind of had enough of me being unethical and they kind of hauled my butt out of the bar So I do want to say a big. Thank you to a couple of folks here Number one the Bigfoot pub in eatery, which has been around forever in Spokane Here's Spokane, Washington where we're doing our filming and where we live and work and they the owners graciously Generate allowed us to use their bar on Halloween night, which is what we were doing or right around Halloween I think it was like the day before so which is why you see all the Halloween decorations.  We had the audio system and we were telling people what to do when to do it We had ladders out. We have multiple cameras It was a lot of fun, but we did disrupt their business quite heavily that night. So again, thank you to the Bigfoot Thank you to MTF you for coming out and supporting us while we did something completely unique with regard to ethics So and for the rest of you out there make sure that you study your ethical codes I know some of them get a little weird they get a little wonky and sometimes you don't understand the value of it Well, hopefully by doing this a non exemplar and then walking you through it and doing the error correction and the Feedback and the in all the getting shot for doing the things that are wrong Hopefully that helps you see some of the individual pieces and we want you to remember one thing that a good behavior analyst is ethical by nature All right, so be it be a good behavior analyst Do good well while you're out there and make sure you keep these ethical codes in mind Because every time you read through them every time you work through them You're gonna learn something a little different and realize something a little different So hope you enjoyed our series on ethics It's been a kick in the pants to make edit record and do all that fun stuff And we'll see you again when we see it psych core out You


Hello everyone. Hello. Hello. So I remember Katelyn was complaining about the slot before lunch and now I think this is worse, unless you guys prove it otherwise. Okay, so we're going to start with a little bit of trivia. I'm going to ask you some questions and if you know the answer, you need to stand up and then just give me the answers. And if you do, I have some very delicious candy bars which you deserve after a lunch and after half a day of a conference. All right, so very simple. If you know the answer, just stand up. Yeah, and I'll be the judge of who stands up first. You can use your phone if you would like to figure out what's the answer, but I don't think it's so difficult, but you can do that. You can use that as an aid. All right, so what was the first talk today, the first speaker? Who was it and what did this speak about? So my name is Kim. Yes, Kim. Okay, who invented the graphical user interface and when? The GUI. You can use your phone or call a friend. No one? Yes. That's wrong. Sorry. Yes. Yes. And when? That's okay. So no one is in the mood to actually look at their phone and then figure this out. 1973, gentlemen over there. Thank you. Okay, and who, okay, when was the World Wide Web www invented? No one? You can use your phone. Yes. The lady over there. And then the very last one. I hope we all know this. Who is the author of design of everyday things? You have to stand up. You have to stand up. Okay, great. Thank you. All right. I see that no one was really using their phone, but there was a research done and it was about seven years ago. It was published in the Journal Science, which talks about how we have a lot of reliance for information on Google or any other kind of technology or search engines. And the study actually looked at how it's altering our brain and it does. So what's happening is our focused attention is reducing and we are relying a lot and I think this may happen with you when you're trying to recollect something. What's the first instinct that you have when you're trying to remember something? Yes. I bet, right? Like most of the time we pick up the phone. So what's happening is it's altering our brain and we're getting over reliant on the devices, which is not necessarily bad because the article who was named is Google making us dumb. And I know that there was a question in the, in Gideon's talk about are we getting lazy? So what that article said is that even though we have a lot of reliance on technology for retrieving information, what's happening is all the neurons in our brain, which were given this task of retrieving information, now are free to do bigger things in life, to do creative thinking, to do something better for the society, theoretically. But what do we do with all those, the freed space in our memory? Fill it up with cute cat videos from YouTube? No one? Yes. Anyways, let's meditate on that and we'll bring it back in the talk later, how technology is influencing us and how, as a society, when we are moving forward that we need to be conscious of it. Okay, my name is Prakriti. I'm part of the user experience and design team at DBS. When I joined in 2016, it was 12 of us and one of the girls is here, Serene. She was the only girl at that time in the team and I was the second one or third one. But now we are 38. It's an in-house design team and the team is basically designing anything digital that the customers see. So I hope everybody has a DBS account here and you're using mobile banking. Mobile banking, internet banking, Pela, we have apps for high-network clients. So anything that the customers see digitally is pretty much designed by this in-house team. We are very proud of it. So before we talk about how to keep it human in a world where everything is getting automated, digital, technologically advanced, I think it's important that we look back in the future and how this technology has actually helped us. And I thought we'll just quickly go through some of the technology breakthroughs that we have had that have actually affected or in a better way, in a positive way the design of UX, I mean the history of UX design. So if I had to ask you like what is something in the last 50 years a breakthrough that has really impacted us now as UX professionals, what will that be? Anyone in the last 50 years? Smartphones? Anything else? GPS navigation? Yes. That screens. Yes. Great. So all of these definitely are just revining a little back, 1436 Gutenberg. He invents the movable type and what he did is he produced like mass production of books and made it available for the society to basically learn and educate. Now this straight-off society didn't have access to education at that time. So he made it possible and then it was great as an invention. Telephone or any kind of telecommunications for that matter. There's some debate here but Alexander Graham Bell was the first one who actually created, no you don't disagree, okay. But he was the first one who created a working prototype or a functional prototype of the telephone and what was interesting is that telephone it actually changed the way humans physically interact with the tool for communication. So after the telephone the whole experience around communication changed. GUI much later in future but even though the bitmap images they look very primitive right now but at that time the whole windows and the text editor was quite groundbreaking. And then of course the worldwide web which changed our experience of connection. So the thing that phone did in terms of communication but the worldwide web did in terms of connection with people all around the world. And then of course we have to talk about iPhone because it introduced the whole touch interaction and how intuitive it could be. So there are many more of course but what is something that's common across all of these different breakthroughs. Any one thing that's common across these, the five that we saw, I'm sorry, innovation, unprecedented, okay. Apart from fact that yes they are, they involve interaction between a human being and a technology and they made it easier. So yeah sure some of those things it made it possible to do things that was previously not possible. But not only that they made it for the betterment of the society. You can argue that some of these inventions have also created problems but we'll talk about that in a different contrast. So in this all of these inventions they have actually tried to solve a very real problem and ultimately they were the purpose was really to improve people's lives. So I think there's something to learn from these breakthroughs. Whereas now with you know this whole digital world, let me ask you how many times or recently have you experienced frustration while using a piece of technology? How many? Recently have you faced any frustration? That's all. That's not bad actually. So even though we have had a lot of positive influence with technology, we things have also become very complex and I know you didn't touch upon some of that the previous speakers as well. This is my favorite example. A digital microwave of 2018 has 36 controls and it's very smart because all stuff like popcorn and potato and pizza it's been preset for the time and I can just stick it in and it'll be warm. But what's happening here is what's the user's main jobs to be done with a microwave? What is it? Most of the time yes it's warming reheating most of the time. I mean you can argue that I use it for baking a cake as well but most of the times it's it's warming. So how might we do that using this? Any guesses? It depends. I like the answer. That's what we all say when business asks or something. It depends. Let me tell you what it depends on. But yeah of course like the I don't know the 30 second that's the one that I use most of the time and the rest 35 the buttons they are just not used. Rewind back. Microwave of the 1970s. Two controls. I put the food in. I set the time and if needed temperature. So what happened from 1970s to 2018? At least in in the context of microwave we have probably gone backwards. We made the interaction complex in the name of smart device. So I think that is something that we need to be consciously aware of. Let me show you another quick example. This one's talking about using voice. It's like a voice activated smart home. See. Okay now. Smoothie. Making smoothie. Calendar. No meetings today. Remember time. At 9.30. Fire off. Open door. Open. So. So. Repeat that. I didn't understand that. Hey. Open door. Hey. On the floor. Open the door. Open the door. Hey, you. With a rock. Open door. Open door. Fire. Fire. Is an exaggeration. Just give me a minute while I get back to this. Of course it's an exaggeration but something that some of the newer technologies as they're getting they're getting better of course. You know we are teaching them and we are giving them a lot of information to learn about the environments. But something that they're still struggling with is dealing with abnormalities. So even in the video it was because the voice was not really the right voice, right? It changed and therefore the system had difficulties understanding. So that happens even, I mean there's a lot of examples out there where this whole idea of abnormalities and not being able to process that abnormality and then come up with a solution. That's that's missing. And we're working towards it. So there's a really nice article by Don Norman. It's called the human side of automation. If you do get a chance have a read. I'm sure people from Tesla and other self-driving car manufacturers may not like it. But he talks about this whole idea of what humans are good at and what systems or machines are good at. So for instance humans are very good at pattern recognition, dealing with abnormalities like to process the situation and then come up with a solution. Whereas we are not very good at a focused attention for a long time. And I can already see that because ten minutes into the talk the energy is dipping slowly. But we are not good at that. But that's what machines are good at. So he talks about this whole idea that let's say with the and this has been around for a while and he talks about how in aviation you have the autopilot, right? That is a way to automate. But the way it works is the automation only takes care of easy things. And if there is any abnormality or if there's anything that they are not capable of taking care they immediately pass it on to the pilot. Now the difference is in an aviation industrial and aviation scenario you still have, I don't know, 20 minutes before the plane comes crashing. You have some time and the pilots are really trained. They've been trained for six months to deal with a situation like that. So it's still working and we should learn from that. Whereas let's say in driverless car, what's happening is parts of it are automated. And then the other parts, you know, we still have the control on the drivers. But what happens is that makes us complacent. Because now we are like, okay, we'll let the car drive. And then we have very few, I don't know, milliseconds to process. Let's say there's going to be an accident. And then you have to process and quickly act on it. And that is a recipe for disaster because it is going to lead to an accident. So anyways, I won't talk more about it. If you're interested, please read this article. It's fantastic. But the whole notion of that we need to aim for collaboration and not supervision. So as humans, we should not be telling and supervising, let's say the AI, but how do we work together with them? Things they are good at, things we are good at, and then it, I don't know, for lack of a better word, a better, it's a good marriage. So by 2020, 2020, Gartner predicts that there's going to be six intelligent devices or things for every human in the planet. So that's great, right? Because remember what we spoke about before. So a lot many neurons are going to be free. So we can do more things. But that also means in a world where it's getting very, very digital and very, very automated, how might we keep things human? How might we still go with this idea that we are all connected and we are all humans? So I'm going to talk about few tips, few things that we can do. There's no, there's no clear cut answer here. But I'm a researcher. So I'm going to put a model together and then we can follow that. So just like any design process, we need to look for the right problem. And that's in context, I mean we do that even otherwise, but more so when we are dealing with automation or technology, we need to look for the right problem. What happens is a lot of time, let's say tech entrepreneurs, they are very excited about this nifty technology and they're like, okay, we have this. How do we use this? And that's not really the right way to approach, right? The approach is what is the user trying to achieve? Or how can we make it better for them? Or how can we improve their lives? And then see, okay, can this technology really help us? So I think it's important that we do the process right. This is an example from Capital One where they tied with Alexa and then there are many financial services that Alexa can now do, like pay your credit card bill, look at your balances, remind you if a bill is due and so on and so forth. Now let's say for the specific scenario, pay your credit card bill. It sounds like, yeah, that could be cool if I'm multitasking and the ad is also like that, you know, the woman is multitasking and then she says, hey, Alexa, pay my bill. But if you look at the journey, it actually asks you a couple of questions before Alexa can do it. So Alexa will ask you, hey, so what's the password? So then you say the password. Then Alexa asks you, okay, so which bank account do you want to use to pay the credit card bill? Then you would say that. And then finally, you know, it's paid. So the question is, is this the right problem to solve? So we know Alexa is great with voice, right? It's the technologies about voice and the way we are using it is to pay a credit card bill. So is that the right problem to solve? Because right now if I go to my mobile app, I follow roughly the same number of steps to do it. So yes, it made it easier by a notch, but what value did it add? So I think we need to always question what is that problem that we are trying to solve. Because if voice is a unique identifier, maybe the way to use technology would be, I just use my voice to identify. You don't have to ask me for the password.  And then there's this whole idea of first principles thinking by Brett King. You know, it always talks about what is that technology good at or really break it down and then try to see how you can use it. I'm just going to bring one example from DVS. So in 2016, we launched an app called Digi Bank in India. It was a completely digital bank. That means it's a mobile app. And you can open an account without any signatures or physical forms. So at that time, it was quite revolutionary because in India, no one did that before. So of course, we were trying to be revolutionary. That was there. But one of the problems that we were also able to solve is, and I was there, I was doing research and I spoke to this one customer who had recently downloaded the app. And he told me that his mom lives in a village and she doesn't have a bank account. She's illiterate. And then he said, you know what? I'm going to open a bank account for her because she has a smartphone. So she definitely has a smartphone and then all you need is the app on the phone and then I can easily transfer money to her. So that was one moment where I felt, OK, I think we are solving the right problem. That doesn't happen very often. I should be honest, even in DVS. But that was one instance where I was like, OK, finally we are solving the right problem. So I think it's incumbent on us to really think about, are we solving the right problem? Second, another way we can be human is by letting... So something that humans are lousy at is memory, right? We tend to forget things. And technology is good at that because they can process a lot of information for a long time and remember it. So the idea here is that can we then help users to realize something that they are not even aware of? So the whole idea of Bindspots is you don't know what you don't know. And if we can do that, because we have so much access of data now, right? Especially for banks. Sorry, a lot of my examples are bank related. But it's very applicable to other fields as well. So because we tend to forget things like... This is a great example, like subscriptions. When was the last time you had a subscription and you had forgotten about it? Does that happen?  I'm not even using that service. So this is a great example from Clarity Moneyware. They actually help you realize that, hey, these subscriptions, do you think you really need them or cancel them? So there is a principle here, right?  And therefore it becomes meaningful for you then. So this whole idea of blind spots is actually quite powerful and we try to use that in DBS as well. We've not been very successful. But hopefully in the next two to three years, something that we did with retirement in DBS is we created... So there's a lot of fears, not really fears, but people are uncomfortable talking about retirement. That's what we found in Singapore.  So we try to reimagine how we could present the information and we figured that one of the blind spots people have is that they're not even aware of, like let's say based on how much I'm spending today, how that would with inflation change in 20 years or 25 years. So this was a tool that we created that helped users to actually look at their existing spending and if you want to maintain this lifestyle and how much you might need and how do you work towards it. This is another example from Simple Bank. They talk about the safe-to-spend idea. So after your expenses and after your bills and everything, how much money do you still have that you can save? All right. So we had the first one which was, you know, look for the right problem. The second one helped discover blind spots. And the third one, how many of you have heard about positive computing? Okay, so this was a term that was made popular by Raphael Calvo and Dorian Peters. It's a very good book. You can have a look at that. It just, it didn't take up, they introduced this term in 2015, but somehow it has not really taken on, I'm guessing because there's lack of examples. But what they talk about is, again the same way, like when was the last time you could make a strong connection with, let's say, a loved one because of technology. I'm sure you can think of some, right, in the past. So the whole idea is through time with the technological advances. Yes, our salary and maybe we have a better, we have more money, but in terms of happiness, we're still the same. And it talks about how we should use technology to actually improve well-being. About meaningfulness, empathy, and talks about these three psychological needs, which is autonomy, competence, and relatedness. So we can only be psychologically satisfied if we feel we are competent, meaning we have mastery over some sort of an art, specialist, maybe, I don't know, or generalist. Whatever we feel is like we are master of that. Autonomy, which is the sense of having control over your life. And then the third one is relatedness, which is the sense of belonging. So if we are satisfied or if you're getting enough on these three parameters, you should be psychologically satisfied and that should lead to a good well-being. So the book talks about how can we do that when we design or when we look at technology, we use the technology to actually get people to those satisfied stages. I'm going to show you an example of Google Photos. This is my older boy, and they did this video and they sent it to me, the Google Photos Assistant, and the title was, They Grow Up So Fast. I was actually quite surprised that they got all the correct photos. I was just surprised. I was like, wait, because my other boy looks very similar to my older boy as well. They are three and six. But they actually got all the photos of my older guy and then they stitched it together in a video. And then of course, like any mum out there, I was like, oh, I didn't have the time to do it, but that's great. And they managed to invoke the positive emotions in me in a nice way. Even though it's not that value-adding, but the point is they were able to create that sense of joy for me in that moment. So that's great. And if we can do things like that with technology, because this is technology in a way, right? They looked at all the, I don't know, millions of photos. Trust me, there are many photos that I have in Google Photos.  So I think they were spot on there with the positive emotions. While we wait to actually make technology very, very, in terms of referral, like the positive computing aspect, we can try to at least do moments of happiness, just like the way Google Photos did. So while we wait to actually create something that's very meaningful and powerful and adds, brings value to people's life, till then at least we can try and focus on maybe just moments of joy or moments of... And I'm just going to show, I'm a bit biased. I'm going to show the US's example. The Pela app was redesigned and the designer is actually here if you want to meet him later. But one thing that... So paying some money to someone is a very... I mean, there is the mundane task of it and then there's also the whole idea of I don't want to be in debt, so I want to pay money and you feel good once you pay the money back.  And then we managed to do that because we get a lot of reviews where people love the fact of the little airplane going with the noise. So again, it may not be very value-adding at this point, right? You can argue, but it's just small moments of joy that, again, evokes the positive emotions. That's another example of a virtual teller machine. So although we want to be totally digital, but it's very hard and we know that... I mean, we still get many calls. People just love to pick up the phone. It's an easy thing to do rather than trying to figure it out, right? You choose the path of least energy. So this was one solution that we have around...  This is not the skew-morphed... Yes, not what is an actual teller on a video conferencing, which works quite well as well. Just another example before we wrap up. Another thing that DBS is currently working on is how do we, as a society or as an overall country, how do we improve the financial health of people? And I know in the previous talk, you guys spoke about forecasting, because that's something that's a very powerful tool. If people can really see what's going to happen in the future, that could lead them to take an action. So going with that and this whole idea of positive computing and not making it very negative in terms of, hey, you're not saving and loss aversion and... So we do that as well. But primarily it was to put the whole financial planning into a concept that people would easily understand. And then we came up with this whole idea of sale, which is just like a boat where you have emergency savings as a hull and your investment is the sale. And then we tried to show customers that what your state is right now and then what it could be. There were different islands which are the goals you were moving towards them. So again, we got some success here, but of course it's live right now but needs a lot of improvement. But this was another way we tried to create those moments of joy. All right, that's pretty much all I have. And I think something that I wanted everyone to take away with them after this talk is really this whole idea that how can we use technologies to empower us rather than just making a simple thing simpler. So it's not just about that, but how can we really empower ourselves as a society. And also this whole idea of because we have all of these neurons which are now available, how can we then use them for creative abilities and bring happiness to our life. All right, that's all. I have a lot of time, I see. These are some good reads if you guys would like. The first two books and then the one on Don Normans. He has a website with a lot of really relevant articles. All right, that's a wrap for me. If you guys have any questions. All right, we're going to bring up a slider meter. We would have a few questions. All right, the first question. How does positive computing impact the privacy concern we face today? Sorry, I couldn't get off the third question. How does positive computing impact the privacy concern we face today? So positive computing is also about feeling safe and this whole feeling of safety and being comfortable as well. So if I understand the question correctly, how can we still make people feel safe? Is that correct? So who asked that question? We want to know how, is that correct? Is that what you want to know? How do we still make people feel safe with positive computing? Okay, that's a good question. And I think even, I mean, it's not to say that if something is joyful, it's not safe. So it's not really that. But as long as we can get that emotion or we can evoke that emotion from the users that hey, you're in safe hands. But even if you did it in a positive way, it should work. But I don't have any examples for you right away. Does that answer your question? Okay. We have to get to that question now. What conditioner you use, Prakriti? You have to tell us. We really love your calls. Guess who asked that question? Thank you. And the shampoo if possible. Obasna, does that answer your question? How did DBS design the know your customer process for its mobile app? Anything you think your team had effectively optimized? Okay. Who asked that question? It's okay. I can give you an example of India, if that helps. For Digi Bank India, as I said, it is a paperless signup. So the way we did that is using, in India they have an identity card. It's called Aadhar. So they had to key in their number. And then they were all set. You get all the information in terms of their addresses and a lot of other information from that. But we also had to... I mean, the government does ask you to have a visual in-person verification. So that still needs to be done. So we actually tied up with a lot of cafes in the city. So customers could either pick an option where they go to the cafe and then the baristas there were trained to do the in-person verification. Or they could call somebody home. Then we tied up with this third party agency who went to their house to... We were still trying to optimize that process. And now with videos, we are trying to see if we can use that. But the government says that it has to be an in-person verification. I think that's where the laws are stopping us right now. Okay. All right. What are some humans versus automation challenges your team faces working in a bank? Who asked that question? I think it's okay. I mean, the reason you have slide over is that you don't have to say who asked. Okay. I'll give you an example. Recently, the one challenge that we face as a bank is this whole idea of having the call center, right? We have people there and somehow, even if you have gone very digital, we still have a volume of calls which comes in because people want to talk to somebody and they don't want to really do it themselves. Not that they don't want to do it themselves. Maybe it's difficult as well, right? It's a lot of cognitive load to go and find things out. So the way we are trying to do... have maintained that is we are not going with the notion that everything must be digital. So every time when there is... You know, we have this excited business product books. Sometimes they come to us like, for instance, for the chatbot. Right now in our mobile banking app, we have a chatbot. And one of the things that the business guys had in mind is like same thing as Alexa. Can we use it to transfer money to somebody? Let's... I'm like, but it's already...  How difficult is that? But we still wanted a chatbot there to do it. So I think those are the times when we really try and with whatever knowledge and whatever validation we have, the research that we have, we try to tell and educate that maybe you don't have to always automate everything. So that's the way we are trying to balance it out. Does that answer your question? Anonymous question? I actually asked because I was hoping you might have more chocolates. Okay. I think this is the last question. Sorry. How can we make sure that the positive computing aligns with business needs? How do we make sure positive computing aligns with business needs? So what we're trying to say is sometimes we might want to create an interaction that's just joyful, but maybe it's not really making us money. Right? And we face that a lot as well. And that's where we go back to research and we tell... And there is a lot of research to prove that. The longer you can keep people on your app or the longer you can keep them on your website, the more likely they are to convert. So what positive computing does is it will keep you there if you did it right. And then it will help you discover more and more content in a positive way. So you have to tie it like that. Thank you so much, Prakriti. Do we have any other questions on the floor? Yes. Hi. Hi. I understand that DBS has a really large design team. I want to ask ten years ago, normally customers only have a website. But nowadays they have a website, they have a corporate website, they have a macro site, they have a mobile product, they have so many products. I want to ask how do you guys manage to ensure the consistency of design across all the product lines? That's a very challenging problem nowadays where I've been seeing because customers do not have only one website. Now they have so many teams across different teams. How to ensure that all the products are consistent. Do you have a system or something? Yes, that's a great question. And we are working towards a system like that. So something that the whole design team consciously does because we work across many different products and services and many different channels per se. Like let's say we have the website, we have the app. So one thing that consciously the team does is whenever there is, let's say something needs, a new feature is going to be on the mobile banking app. So I think something that we consciously do is we try to see how does that affect the different touch points that the customer has. So we already have customer journeys mapped out for the different user tasks. So what we do is we go backwards and then we see that okay, if I'm going to add this new feature, how does it affect the interaction on the website versus on the mobile bank versus Pela or any of the other apps. And then the main thing to do is to talk to each other and to talk to the business folks and keep everybody in the loop. So which we consciously try and do that. The other thing, the team is structured into, we have the user research and insights. We have the design team who work on different core experiences. But then we also have a design language and systems team. So the team is really responsible to make sure that all the components, all the experiences, as much as we can, we standardize across the platforms. So that when you go into a mobile app, you started something, you left and you went into an internet banking, at least you still feel familiar and it's not like a totally different territory. So that's the other way we are trying to build a system that supports the journey, the customer journey. Does that answer your question? Thank you so much, Prakriti. You've definitely evoked a lot of positive energy here. Thank you for bringing us chocolates.


We have five kitchens here for restaurants, about 35 to 40 kitchen staff. We don't have a large turnover, people seem to like it here. We have a great belief in work-life balance. Work health and safety in our kitchens is critical. We have allocated in each of our kitchens a person that looks after our first-aid kits, they're monitored every week, reports are done. Working in a busy kitchen you've got sharp knives, you've got heat, you've got chemicals. You've got cross-contamination of product. We have to have an understanding of that, to do our jobs properly and to keep the public safe as well. We have a full incident reporting system here. There's an assessment done as to why something happened. For example, if the chef that was on the grill got chemical in his eye, then we need to look that he had the gloves on, he had the eye goggles on. Then we need to start retraining that young chef into the correct way to clean the grill. We're very strong on work relationships with each other and helping each other.   It's really important that we nurture the people that work for us and treat them with respect that they deserve to be able to do their job properly, safely, get home and then come back again.