I apologise to those members. I was not able to take, but I think I had made it clear how things were progressing and could not have been clearer in that regard. We will now move on to the next item of business, which is a debate on motion 6374, in the name of Elena Whitham, on behalf of the Social Justice and Social Security Committee, on robbing Peter to pay Paul low income and the debt trap. I would ask those members who would wish to speak in the debate to please press the request to speak buttons, and I call on Elena Whitham to speak to and to move the motion on behalf of the Social Justice and Social Security Committee. Up to nine minutes, please, Ms Whitham. Deputy Presiding Officer, as convener, I am pleased to be opening this debate on the Social Justice and Social Security Committee's important inquiry into low income and debt. UGov Research, commissioned by Citizens Advice Scotland, found that over 600,000 people have encountered new debt problems during the pandemic, either getting into debt for the first time or seeing existing debt get worse. With the cost crisis, it is likely that we will see those numbers grow exponentially. As the cost of basics rise sharply in energy prices skyrocket, households across the country are limiting their use of essentials and suffering a significant decline in their mental and physical wellbeing. People are desperately worried about the future and we, as a committee, share their concerns. Spiralling costs will put an increasing number of people into debt because they simply do not have enough money to pay for all basic outgoings and bills. As a committee, we set out to explore specific challenges faced by people with low income in accessing and finding solutions to their debt situation. We wanted to find out their key challenges and how we could help them, what more could be done. Our starting point for this work was the focus group with people experiencing debt problems. We wanted their experience to be at the heart of the inquiry and to inform the scope of their work. Their testimony shaped the questions posed in our call for views and the committee's subsequent evidence-taking sessions. What a stark picture they painted, despite receiving advice on social security entitlement and other forms of income maximisation, many people on low income simply did not have enough money to make essential living costs. They were stuck in an inevitable cycle of debt operating with deficit budgets. There was no obvious way out. Bankruptcy might be a short-term solution for some, however, for many, money advisers spent significant time trying to negotiate reduced payments with public sector creditors who are accessing charitable support with the sole aim of enabling their clients to have enough money to live. Participants from our original focus group formed our experts by experience panel who made recommendations to the committee on how things could be improved. Those recommendations fed directly into the committee's report. For us, that was about empowering people not just to tell us their story but to be involved in shaping change. In fact, the report titled, Robin Peter to pay Paul, Low Income and the Debt Trap is also a quote taken directly from one of our experts by experience. I would like to thank each and every one of them who gave evidence to the committee, particularly our experts by experience who diligently engage with us throughout this work. That would not have been possible without the organisations who supported them and the committee extends its sincere thanks to all of you. During this inquiry, we were told that problem debt has a particular stigma and shame attached to it that leaves people feeling trapped, isolated, unable to sleep. Many of those worries are related to wider stigma around poverty. Deputy Presiding Officer, this was a far-reaching inquiry with recommendations that span a number of different Scottish Government portfolios as well as local government and UK Government responsibilities. We looked at debt owed to schools through school meals, council tax debt, the advice sector, the availability of information and support, early intervention and prevention, mental health and statutory debt solutions such as Bankruptcy. I hope that a range of those areas will be touched on by my colleagues today, but in my remaining time I will focus on just two of the key areas we explored, public sector debt and money advice. Often when we think of debt, we think of debt owed to private businesses like credit cards and loans. Increasingly we might think about debt owed to fuel costs. We may not think so quickly about the role of public sector plays in debt in areas such as social housing, benefit deductions, council tax, care charges and school charges. We were told that debt owed to public bodies is increasing as people struggle to pay bills. Collection of this debt can be quicker and harsher than from private creditors. Fairly to pay council tax can result in enforcement action. CAS highlighted that council tax debt is one of the biggest debts that they see in bureaus. Local authorities tend to favour bank arrestments as a way of enforcing payment. That means that money can be seized directly from people's bank accounts. Steps have been taken to bring greater consistency to local authority debt collection, but we heard that that is not always felt on the ground. We were concerned to hear that public sector processes are not always sensitive enough to individual circumstances. Our experts by experience stress that compassion must be built into those processes and services. We can't have rigid faceless services that always assume that the debtor is wrong. That makes the whole experience worse for the individual and ag's anxiety. We need a fundamental change in attitude from front-line services dealing with people in debt. We believe that the public sector should lead by best practice by handling debt in a fairer and more considerate way. Debt recovery should be done proportionately based on individual circumstances and people should be treated with compassion. We were also concerned to hear that people are sometimes failed in key systems that are not connected or easy to use. People must take it upon themselves to navigate complex systems to get the support that they are entitled to. Often at times where they have very limited emotional and financial capacity to do so, the burden of responsibility falls on individuals too often. That is a theme that emerges often in our committee work. Before I return to the role of the free money sector, I want to touch on school meals as another important area where quick action could be taken. Free school meal provision should be increased and rolled out at pace and school meal debt should be written off. That is already happening in some councils but not all. As I said during my debate on challenge poverty week, weans need to eat. Last but no by no means least, I turn to the advice sector and the people across Scotland who are working tirelessly to help people who are existing in truly desperate circumstances. Money advisers are doing a hugely difficult but important job in helping people to navigate their finances. They may be suffering their own financial and wellbeing challenges in the process. Debt advisers told us that they are firefighting and they are hanging on by their fingertips. They are burnt out by the demand on their services. The complexity of cases and the lack of available options to resolve people's problems. Witnesses raised issues around the awareness of advice services, stigma around seeking help, channel choice and digital exclusion as well as funding concerns. Christians Against Poverty shared an example with us of one of the many people they support through their debt advice. This client is coming to the end of a minimal assets process bankruptcy. Their sole income is social security benefits. They suffer from depression, anxiety and panic attacks. Once they have been discharged from bankruptcy, they will have £8.55 a week to live on for all food and household items. Living on a budget of £8.55 is not sustainable and the very tragic reality is that this individual will fall straight back into problem debt. Debt advisers also highlighted that many low-income households are the most prudent money managers you will ever come across. They know where every single penny goes and can account from every part of their income. The problem is that the income is simply not enough to cover the costs. We must continue to use all available avenues to tackle poverty and resulting debt issues and we must take a person-centred approach. I am proud of the committee's inquiry on how the work is undertaken to shine the light on the complex circumstances that lead people to become indebted and their struggle to find solutions to that debt. That is systemic and interlinking challenges of tackling poverty were interwoven in that work. We make a wide range of recommendations that we think could make a real difference to people who are at the most marginalised and overwhelmed by their debt. Those whose incomes are so low that there can seem to be no feasible way to pay off debt and no way out of the debt trap. The Scottish Government, the UK Government and local authorities recognise the compelling evidence received by the committee on those issues and work together to enact the much-needed collective change. On behalf of the Social Justice and Social Security Committee, I move that the Parliament notes the conclusions and recommendations contained in the Social Justice and Social Security Committee's eighth report, 2022, session 6, Robin Peter, to pay pole, pole, low income and the debt trap. I look forward to seeing you back at the member's business later on this afternoon. Before we move to the next speaker, I encourage those who haven't already done so that they press the request-to-speak buttons as soon as possible. I call on Gillian Martin to speak on behalf of the Health, Social Care and Sport Committee for around four minutes. Thank you, Presiding Officer. I thank the Social Justice and Social Security Committee for bringing the debate to the chamber today. Earlier this year, the Health, Social Care and Sport Committee completed its initial inquiry into health inequalities in Scotland and the rising cost of living inevitably impacted on our evidence. Scotland has got enduring health inequalities. The result, in good part, from a number of historic factors outlined by several experts that we heard from. We found that health inequality has increased across the population during the years leading up to the pandemic, and then the pandemic exacerbated them. We heard that destitution rose during the pandemic. People from black and minority ethnic communities and disabled people were more likely to die and that caring responsibilities became almost insurmountable and caused mental health issues. This is not a debate about health inequalities, but the inescapable fact is that poverty is the root cause of health inequalities. The rapid rise in the cost of living is set to worse and longer-term health inequalities if action is not taken. During our inquiry, we heard that a number of households where spending exceeds incomes is rapidly increasing. It is a phrase that we hear a lot, but the reality is that people are choosing between eating and heating and this is impacting more and more families. People with complex conditions or those who provide informal care have additional costs with often very little income and we heard that people with multiple sclerosis, for example, will face an additional £200 per week on average in electricity and gas bills. We also heard that some families have extensive medical equipment to power many medical and mobility devices that require charging or constant electricity to function. Members will be aware of the recent coverage of a family facing an expected £17,000 energy bill to keep their daughter with cerebral palsy warm and alive. The rest of the family will freeze to ensure that she can have heat in her room. Many people with disabilities or reduced mobility must have their heating at higher levels to stay warm and prevent them from becoming seriously ill. We heard that they had to stop social and recreational activities due to the increased costs and we and our predecessor committees have advocated for the importance of physical activity, social interaction and participating in social and cultural activities as a way to prevent ill health and without being able to do those activities or afford to do those activities physical and mental health suffers and social isolation increases. We heard that people have been able to attend health and social care services and stopping self-management because of financial hardship. We heard of pensioners being pushed into extreme fuel poverty and we heard that as a result of the cost of living crisis despite all the interventions that were made by the Scottish Government child poverty is on the rise. The poorest and most vulnerable people in society are those that are bearing the brunt of this crisis and they can get significantly worse for a lot of households. Minister Michael Marmot told us that inflation has a much bigger impact on households with low incomes than it does on households with higher incomes and it seems self-evident but it's not just an exercise in philosophy this it's actually making a real difference and it's pushing people that live in the margins of their income into poverty and thus widening health inequalities. It was laid bare to our committee that people in the poorest communities are quite literally dying because of inequalities, poverty and repeated challenges they're facing. Professor Jelly McCartney told us plainly that the rising mortality of our poorest communities will get worse and they will get worse faster if those challenges are not addressed properly. We're left in no doubt a cost of living crisis in the urgent public health and social justice emergency and as a committee we've recommended targeted action to address health inequalities in equality and poverty as it's root cause at all levels local government, Scottish government and UK government. There is action needed at all levels and it's needed now or we'll be looking at widening health inequalities for generations to come. Thank you. Thank you very much this morning and I call on Siobhan Brown to speak on behalf of the Covid-19 recovery again around four minutes. It's my pleasure to speak on a very important topic and I commend the social justice and social security committee for bringing this debate to the chamber. I'll shortly be talking about some of the committee's work within the context of the cost crisis but first it's important to stress that the impact of the cost crisis is a cross cutting issue affecting everyone. Today's debate is an excellent opportunity to highlight parliamentary committee's scrutiny on this issue and wrote to the Deputy First Minister last week with our recommendations which included calling on the Scottish government to clarify whether the cost crisis will affect the funding of the Covid recovery strategy. As members are aware the strategy was published in October 2021 well before the scale of the cost crisis was apparent and during evidence we heard how the impact of the cost crisis could affect the funding and delivery of the strategy with start warnings that it will pose more significant challenges for organisations, service providers and individuals than even those faced during the pandemic. Now we know that the Scottish government's budget is roughly 1.7 billion less than it was worth last December and if we ask whether the government intends to refresh the strategy to reflect any policy changes in light of the cost crisis on a similar vein at the recent convener's group meeting I asked the First Minister whether the government's priorities for recovery had changed in light of the cost crisis and she confirmed its aims and objectives for recovery had not changed but that the context had and the First Minister spoke of the importance of focusing on inequalities made worse by the pandemic and the cost crisis particularly on ethnic minorities and those who are less well off. In your report you looked at bankruptcy and digital exclusion amongst many other things in areas being impacted by the cost crisis. These are areas which this committee considered as part of our scrutiny on the Covid recovery and reform bill. To put simply, the bill was introduced to make permanent some provisions that were introduced through the emergency Covid legislation in relation to public health and public service reform which covered the remote delivery of public services and the aim was to retain some service improvements bought in which during the pandemic and support resilience against any future public health threats. We heard the experiences of delivering public services remotely including increased flexibilities and resource savings, however witnesses highlighted some of the barriers to accessibility which exists for some users. The committee recommended that the bill be amended to ensure all local authorities provide a choice of remote or in-person services in the provision of hard copy documents when required. We also looked at the bankruptcy provisions in the bill and before I go on it's worth explaining that people can only be forced into bankruptcy by the creditors if they owe above a certain amount of money and emergency Covid legislation increased the debt threshold at which a creditor could make someone bankrupt to protect people from harsh outcomes during the pandemic and the bill set up permanently at a higher rate. The committee heard mixed views on what the debt threshold level should be and noted that the cost crisis has escalated considerably since the bill was introduced. The government subsequently acknowledged the need to keep this threshold under review particularly in light of the current economic situation. Turning to our future work we are about to look at the impact of Covid on the labour market specifically focused on long-term sick component of economically inactive people who have chosen early retirement and I'm sure issues relating to the cost crisis are bound to come up over the course of this inquiry. Presiding Officer, just to finish as with the Covid itself this issue is a complex one and it's not going to go away anytime soon it's an area which requires action from both the UK Government and the Scottish Government as has been previously mentioned and this debate today highlights a strong parliamentary scrutiny being done to ensure we can respond appropriately to the fiscal pressures that we all face. Thank you. Thank you very much indeed. I can advise the chamber we've got a little bit of time in hand so anybody taking interventions will get that time back for the foreseeable and with that I call the cabinet secretary for around nine minutes. Thank you Presiding Officer. I'm very grateful to Elena Whitham and her committee for the substantial work on this inquiry and want to thank the individuals who took the time to give evidence on the issues that are affecting people and how Governments can target their efforts to help those most in need. I also want to thank Gillian Martin and Siobhan Brown for the contribution from their committees also. The continuing negative impact of Brexit alongside the current cost of living crisis have pushed households into hardship and I am acutely aware of that. Pressures have been made worse by the recent economic mayhem that the UK Government has caused over the past few weeks and this has all exacerbated existing inequalities and financial stress even further than when the committee published their report and we provided our response on the actions that we are taking and the plans for the future. The committee's recommendations raise a number of issues which span a wide range of policy areas and local Scottish and UK Government responsibilities and within our limited powers and finite budget the Scottish Government is already addressing many of the recommendations in their inquiry report and we will continue to work across Government as well as with partners including COSLA to improve the response to and the services available for those experiencing problem debts. Households are facing the most severe economic upheaval in a generation with alarming rises in energy bills, food prices and inflation rates undoubtedly hitting those on the lowest incomes the hardest. Scottish Government's budget is not immune to those same economic shocks and as the Deputy First Minister set out last month our budget is now worth around £1.7 billion less than when it was set in December because of increasing inflation yet in stark contrast to the UK Government the Scottish Government has taken sustained and significant action on poverty. We have allocated almost £3 billion this year for support that will help mitigate the impact of increasing costs on households over £1 billion of which is only available in Scotland. Through free childcare, bus travel, prescriptions, eye tests, dental check-ups and period products we are supporting households in all areas of life through a range of actions all supporting people through the crisis and beyond. I am putting a total of £150 million in the pockets of low-income families through bridging payments over this year and last is also direct cash support to households now and in direct response to the additional pressure families are facing this winter we are also doubling the December payment for eligible families. Yes, of course. Jeremy Balfour. I am grateful to the cabinet secretary. One of the things that was hoped would be will be P7s three meals provided in this financial year which has been delayed by I think at least one year. Can the cabinet secretary confirm that next academic year every child in Scotland who goes to P7 will have a three school meal? As Jeremy Balfour will be aware the three school meal provision in Scotland is way in excess of anywhere else on these islands particularly in England where his party is in power. In direct response the pupils that are already receiving three school meals in primary one to five is saving parents £400 per eligible child per year and we are continuing to work with our partners in local authorities to plan for the expansion to primary six and seven and that is being supported by 30 million pounds of capital investment to support that expansion so we will get on with supporting families in as many ways as we can. Actions showing that the Scottish Government will always do what it can to help those in need and take action to tackle child poverty reduce inequalities and help households maximise their money through up to £86 million this year in discretionary housing payments we are fully mitigating the bedroom tax for 91,000 households supporting tenancies and reducing the chances of getting into debt and rent ar rears. We have now committed to additional funding to mitigate the benefit cap as far as we are able for up to 4,000 families our commitment in our tackling child poverty delivery plan and an example of our track record of using all of the powers available to us to soften the blow of the worst of the UK Government's policy decisions and of course we also recently announced that local authorities can use their DHPs budgets to support households with energy bills with an additional £5 million committed for this. Financial pressures are often felt most acutely by people who rent their home and that is why we took action through the Tenant Protection Act which came into force last week to help tenants through the challenging months ahead by freezing rents and preventing evictions and of course when people are in need of a safety net our Scottish social security system built upon the principles of fairness dignity and respect provide 12 benefits, seven of which are unique to Scotland and just over a week our package of five family payments will be worth over £10,000 for eligible families by the time their first child turns six and this includes the Scottish child payment which we doubled to £20 per week per child in April and will of course increase again to £25 when we extend it to under 16s on the 14th of November that is a 150% rise within eight months and way ahead of anything available anywhere else in these islands in addition our child winter assistance supports the families of almost 20,000 severely disabled children and young people with payments totaling around £4 million each year this year's payment of £214.10 is already reaching people and again this is a Scottish benefit only available to those in Scotland as is our new winter heating payment which will replace the UK cold weather payments and this guaranteed £50 annual payment will be paid next February to around 400,000 low income households and that's backed by £20 million of investment and is guaranteed help for winter fuel bills for thousands of people in need, yes. I thank the cabinet secretary for taking the intervention and I know what the cabinet secretary has said on the child winter heating assistance but does the cabinet secretary agree that disabled people over the age of 16 also face increased fuel costs and what can the Scottish Government do on that? We do recognise that and of course many of the things I've already talked about will help people with disabled family members and of course the Scottish welfare fund also that we fund is available to families with someone with a disability and of course we will continue to look at what more we can do but that is within the context of a very constrained financial outlook as I say we continue to look at what more we can do and we are already spending £460 million above the level of funding we receive from the UK Government in terms of benefit expenditure and that is substantial. Presiding Officer we are doing much more to support people we are also leading the way with the provision of the most generous universal free school meal provision in the UK so that children are not hungry in school and can focus on learning we also continue to provide funding for local authorities across Scotland for schemes such as the council tax reduction scheme the Scottish welfare fund that I just mentioned and can help to provide much needed support to vulnerable households. Furthermore we are the only part of the UK to have a statutory debt repayment scheme bringing important protections for those taking control of their debt and we have taken action on the protected funds that can be retained in relation to a bank arrestment on which the minister will say more later. Presiding Officer we recognise that sometimes financial difficulties can overwhelm people. At those most difficult times advice services play a vital role in helping people to understand what they are entitled to and what their rights are and that is why we have allocated £12.5 million this year to advice services including debt, welfare and organisation advice and over the past four years our money top service team has put just over £47 million into the pockets of almost 21,500 people and we have also committed to an additional £1.2 million package to enable the expansion of energy advice services and of course that is in addition to our welfare advice practitioners within GP practices that are helping people when they go to see a health professional. I can give you a bit more time. That would be extremely helpful. I should also say that we have tried to bring all of this information into one place because we know trying to find out what people are entitled to can be challenging. That is why we have recently launched a cost of living website which provides trusted advice to help people to understand the significant range available and that is on the Scottish Government's website. We are acutely aware of the growing impact on low income households of debts to the public sector as was mentioned by Elena Wittam and of course local authorities have powers to write off our years and we continue to encourage them to share good practice on debt assistance and collection and to show empathy and dignity when working with people struggling with debts. In conclusion the UK Government holds many of the levers that would lift households out of poverty and I remain deeply concerned about their long standing approach to social security and whilst we are using all of our powers available to us to support households where we can including upgrading our benefits the social impacts of real terms cuts to UK Government benefits are significant with more people on a low income being driven into poverty and I would absolutely urge the UK Government to reflect on that when they come to their budget statement and we cannot have further austerity inflicted by this UK Government and as the First Minister told the Prime Minister last week the UK Government holds the levers over energy tax, the bulk of benefits along with business support and regulation that could help address this crisis and support household public bodies and indeed businesses going forward. We have called on the UK Government for an inflationary uplift to the 2022-23 budget to enable the Scottish Government to take further steps to support people with the cost of living crisis to provide fair public sector pay uplifts and support public services given the fiscal constraints on devolution. I just want to thank again the committee for this comprehensive report and thank them for bringing this debate to the chamber to allow us to shine a light on all of these issues. Thank you Deputy Presiding Officer and I also start by thanking all those who contributed to the work of the social justice and social security committee inquiry and also the helpful briefings which organisations have provided as head of today's debate. It's vital that we understand challenges being faced by people on low incomes and the debt problems often that drives particularly in the context of the global cost of living crisis which we're seeing and the results of that placing more and more people further into debt and that accompanying misery as well. Prior to the outbreak of the Covid-19 pandemic it was estimated that 600,000 people were in debt in Scotland. The real problem is that the pandemic has not only exasperated money problems for people in Scotland but it's also now driving them as well and across the UK cost of living has been increasing since 2021. In September of this year inflation rose by to a 40-year high of 10.1%. Now naturally it is those on the lowest income households who are affected the worst by that increase in inflation. High food and energy prices are among the consequences of high demand from consumers supply chain issues and I think most importantly as well we need to recognise the fallout from the war in Ukraine as well. Those living on low incomes are more likely to be in debt with around half of low to middle income households having at least one debt compared to less than two in five for higher income households and one of the key messages which came out of the inquiry and from those withlific experience was the role I think which advice services have to play and early intervention can and must also provide and the role local authorities play in supporting and providing that advice to low income individuals and families was important. Cutting council budgets and services harms the poorest in our society that's something I think this parliament sometimes doesn't recognise enough because I have already warned that further cuts to council budgets and services will see the removal of services for the most vulnerable in our society. Yes happy to. Doesn't the funding of all of our public services whether it's local government or when it's NHS really depend on the decisions that are made in the forthcoming financial statement and if what is to be believed of deep public sector cuts comes from his government is that not the biggest threat to public services whether it's local government or anywhere else. I suppose we have to look at the history of this and the fact that the Scottish Government have the highest budget in the history of devolution yet decided to cut council budgets shows that the government's priorities have been and the consequences that has but those likely to experience poverty and debt are amongst those most marginalised in our communities people with disabilities are most likely to face the highest excess costs in the UK with one in five disabled people and one in four families with disabled children facing extra costs now estimated to be around more than a thousand pounds a month. Other groups including women, women in rural areas were also highlighted to the committee more needs to be done to ensure these groups are provided with equal opportunities in order to stop them disproportionately being affected by debt as well and it is concerning I think that ministers have if we've got time in hand. You've got time in hand. Thank you for taking the intervention. Just wondering round about you mentioned young parents there do you not agree that the UK Government's GDP policy on how young parents under 25 are treated in terms of their welfare provision exacerbates the poverty that those young parents are facing? I agree with the member on that and as I've said in committee that something I hope can be looked at by the UK Government around this I think that's something we've heard evidence needed to change so we're happy to accept that and that's where those with lived experience I think really have provided the committee with a lot of key thinking that we need to take forward but there's a lot this Parliament and councils need to be doing to change and that's what I want to focus on in terms of our role here because it's also important and incredibly concerning I believe that SNP and Green Ministers have now targeted employability schemes for some of the largest budget cuts without any information on the impact or indeed providing assurances around what these schemes will look like and whether or not they'll be restarted. I'm sure Ministers really monitor and look at the unintended consequences around as well. SNP and Green Ministers have in the past also highlighted and it was highlighted by a Siobhan Bryan from her committee digital exclusion and I don't think we've seen enough around that for people living in poverty in rural communities where advice services are not necessarily local but accessing them and the online services which are provided by many charities across the country needs to be improved so that's something I think which hasn't been necessarily touched upon we need to see action on as well. Ultimately though we need to see action from every level of government we need to see our local councils properly resourced to be able to play their role in this but also both governments working together in this area to deliver on the targets which we all signed up to specifically for example around child poverty and the need for more to be done to tackle the issue of child poverty in Scotland something that the Audit Scotland report in September pointed towards a need for a better strategic planning approach by the Scottish Government they concluded that SNP Ministers need to focus on a more long-term strategy to prevent children from falling into poverty all of us agree it is not acceptable in 21st century Scotland to see the numbers of children living in poverty but how we work together across government to deliver on that is important I also make no apology for the fact that the number of children still living in temporary accommodation is increasing especially here in the capital the Scottish Government are simply not doing enough to provide the resources to councils to help prevent that or to rethink policy around that area it's something I've asked the Cabinet Secretary to act upon previously and we've seen the situation getting worse but it's not better an area where the committee heard the greatest difference can be made is around access to free school meals and the Cabinet Secretary touched upon this earlier as well I don't think we are seeing the agreed progress on delivering this policy when you look at the programme for government there were clear commitments there which are now not being met I do hope that if anything comes out of this debate today it is the need for leadership from the Scottish Government to deliver that promise if Scottish ministers and local authorities take the same response we saw during the pandemic for example to this issue I believe that the policy could be delivered now without further delay Scottish Conservatives support the delivery of free school meals we believe that all primary school and special school children should be given free breakfast and lunch and we also support continued provision for eligible children during school holidays that is a crucial way around it in preventing people on low incomes from dropping under the poverty line and ensuring children from the most deprived backgrounds are cared for and receive access to nutritional food and that's something we have all signed up to but we need to see that focus on delivering it I hoped we would have seen it before this winter I'd also call on the Cabinet Secretary to make that happen the Cabinet Secretary could chair a free school meals delivery group with COSLA to drive that policy to be delivered before Christmas that's something she will take on board and consider yesterday I visited FEDCAP Scotland in Livingston to learn more about the employability support schemes they are providing I was hugely impressed with the work they are doing and the support which is being genuinely taken forward to provide that person-centred approach and we often talk about that but what does that mean and I think for many people who are furthest away from the employment market it is also their mental well-being that needs to be considered as well so I was impressed with what they are doing but I do think, and it's an area we won't have time to expand necessarily in this debate but we also need to look I think going forward at generational unemployment in Scotland and what additional support can be given to families there in conclusion Deputy Presiding Officer if we aspire to be a just fair Scotland we must afford all our citizens fair and equal opportunities the Covid-19 pandemic and the war in Ukraine is one of the chief reasons why we are now witnessing global cost of living increases and seeing more and more people in Scotland and across the UK falling into debt problems and also significant costs to deal with this we want to see the Scottish Government Westminster and local authorities working together to take on this unprecedented crisis and to try to deliver solutions for all our people I hope that the actions and the recommendations of the report can be taken forward by local authorities and, importantly, the Scottish Government there's a lot of good work in this report and I look forward to making sure that, as a committee, we continue to pursue that Thank you very much Mr Briggs I would note that there have been a number of members coming in and out of the chamber I would remind the chamber that members who are participating in the debate should remain within the chamber for all of the opening speeches and indeed for the closing speeches in minutes please Thank you Deputy Presiding Officer I want to open today by putting on record my thanks to the many organisations and people who gave evidence to Social Justice and Social Security Committee as part of our inquiry and who took the time to respond to the committee's call for written views Hearing from representatives from local authorities third sector organisations tenants associations and advice services was an eye-opening experience Charities like Shelter Scotland Aberlour than the Child Poverty Action Group One Parent Family Scotland all gave evidence highlighting the breadth of the issue and the fact that people from all demographics and backgrounds are feeling the bite I'm sure my committee colleagues will agree that it was a stark reality check People were struggling before the cost of living crisis Citizens Advice Bureau requests for advice on debt almost doubled from 4% of total requests in May 2021 to 8% in May 2022 That was before the cost of bills began to skyrocket Now households across Scotland are facing prices rising at their fastest rate for 30 years Not being able to keep up with bills can be the trigger for a downward spiral into severe problem debt Without significant and urgent action from both the UK and the Scottish Government bills will continue to rise and more people will be forced to take on debt just to cover their essential costs including many who had never contemplated on security before The people on the margins who were just about scraping by before are now finding they have no space left to move, they have no financial resilience and they have no buffer to protect them against rising bills nor the rising tide of poverty Failure to act now and prevent more people falling into debt isn't just unacceptable it's also bad economics We know that debt causes financial insecurity homelessness and mental health issues that require state resources and intervention Put simply, by allowing people to fall into problem debt the governments are costing themselves their future selves more money One money advisor told us that his advice web chat was the busiest after 10pm at night People are lying awake in the early hours of the morning searching for help, unable to sleep because they are so worried about being able to make ends meet They are desperate for solutions In cases that they are reaching out before they are in debt they can feel that they are being squeezed and pushed to the edge and they are desperately seeking a way to budget better and to cut back where they can But the reality is that for too many people the choice is now about which essential bill not to pay There is nowhere left to cut back and that they haven't already sacrificed Money advisors report that they have run out of options They are struggling to help people budget when out goings such as rent council tax, heating and electricity and other people's entire income streams leaving nothing left over to pay debt including for food and essentials or credit card bills or bank loans One witness told committee there is no resilience, there is no disposable income anywhere, we are now relying on charities to help such people out I do not know how sustainable that will be for those charities The third sector, as always is stepping up in the absence of proper government action The demand on it is increasing yet the SNP government has cut the overall funding in the last budget by over a million pounds I sincerely hope that it will choose not to repeat that mistake this year Money advice services too are being pushed to breaking point and they have made it clear that the more the problem grows the harder they are finding it to prioritise those they support Not long ago, I visited a citizens advice bureau in canvas land which supports my constituents I couldn't believe the amount of work they are having to do and I want to take the opportunity to thank Sharon Hampson and her team at the bureau and staff at CAB right across the country for the work that they are doing Referals to these services are increasing yet there has been no increase in the number of staff available to deal with it which is exactly why Scottish Labour has called on more funding to be directed to those services They are the last line of defence for many people and we cannot leave them under equipped It's time the Scottish Government ensured the tools are available to allow these services to deal with rising demand in the long term It cannot allow staff to burn out The Scottish Government has powers to alleviate the suffering of soaring numbers of people in debt and the stress on an under resourced sector It has a responsibility to do more to protect people and the committee's findings showed that it has powers to act in a number of areas which would address its effects in Scotland In September 2019 the Minister for Business, Fair Work and Skills pledged to take forward a wide ranging review of Scotland's debt solutions Almost three years later following serious shocks to personal finances it has not yet published its findings The Scottish Government also promised a review of the Scottish welfare fund that that would commence in the first year of this Parliament but we are still waiting and it must expedite that given the current crisis I will Minister I am very grateful to the member for giving way Just on the review of statutory debt solutions as the member will be aware this was in three phases one was an initial response to the crisis situation that we faced in the pandemic where recommendations were implemented there were further recommendations which we took forward as part of the coronavirus recovery legislation we are considering further action I am meeting stakeholders later this week on statutory debt solutions The third aspect I will set out in due course but that is entailing a longer and wider and more comprehensive look at our statutory debt solutions landscape but I would want to assure the member how we are taking forward actions from that process Indeed work has already been implemented and was indeed implemented during the pandemic Pam Duncan-Glancy I acknowledge the work that that group has done so far but as he acknowledged in his intervention that phase 3 is not yet set out in detail and we still do not know where that work is going to continue and families are facing this crisis today The Scottish Government also promised a review of the Scottish welfare fund that we commenced in the first year of this Parliament yet we are still waiting for that and it must expedite this I believe given the current crisis In doing so it should consider mechanisms to speed up the turnaround times for crisis applications to allow for quicker decision making and at the moment this takes around 48 hours which is a long time if we are cold and hungry Scottish Labour have repeatedly called for more funding to be directed towards this fund as well The committee heard that the money currently available is being spent really quickly and it will turn to crisis grants that there is simply not enough to go around but these solutions are just stick in plaster The welfare fund is meant to be an emergency lever not the long term answer to financial difficulty Money advisers we spoke to were clear that people are using the welfare fund to cover the absolute basics We can see that in the fact that over a third of applications are refused because they are repeat applications If things continue as they are it won't hold out for much longer which is why we need to see the Government work harder than action with the future in mind One thing it could do would be to review the law around the amount of money sheriff officers are able to arrest from a person's account The minimum protected balance currently stands at £1000 as of today regardless of the source of income which means people are even losing money that they receive specifically for childcare or housing costs via universal credit The Joseph Rowntree Foundation estimates that a single person needs the equivalent of £1,768.53 take-home pay per month for a decent standard of living Current rules mean that people where people are having their money arrested they could be left with just over half of that That's before you even consider family circumstances or the potential additional costs of being a disabled person or having caring responsibilities It's no wonder that people are finding themselves in perpetual crisis The Government must consider making money advice a mandatory service to give the protection of long term funding too It also means that an alarming number of staff are short term funded, project funded and funded to deal with specific challenges Limiting those available to deal with a wider context and prevent forward planning because services are unable to be sure what future staffing levels will be Scottish Labour are also strong advocates of the breathing space policy which allows those facing mental health crisis to have some time free of being chased by creditors and we're disappointed that the Government didn't acknowledge this in the response to that report I'd strongly urge it to reconsider this and in doing so note the impact of not doing so on mental health services in the NHS The report we're discussing today went further in its recommendations and I'm proud of it which I'm sure my colleagues will speak to and Scottish Labour are proud to give these recommendations our support We know however that on many of them the Government has suggested that they are working towards it and so we look for a quick update from the Government on all of these areas and we've heard about that already and I'm proud that Scottish Labour-led South Lanarkshire Council has pushed ahead in the absence of Government leadership to wipe off this debt The Government must go further to encourage more local authorities to follow suit Presiding Officer, people can't wait any longer What more will it take for the Government to realise the gravity of the situation Too many people can't afford to pay their bills or put food in the table They cannot afford to wait any longer Thank you very much We now move to the open debate I'm followed by Maurice Golden for around five minutes Nishola Thank you, Presiding Officer Though it honestly feels like just moments ago it has been four months and almost as many Prime Ministers since the Social Justice and Social Security Committee published this report Even as we carried out the inquiry events were overtaking us and witnesses were having to react to news so much that I'm sure if I asked CPEG and Crisis today the same questions that I asked them during the inquiry they would have a lot more to add The cost of living crisis has undoubtedly deepened recently and an attack from UK Tories on the economy and people on low incomes has made worse a situation which called for action long ago Instead of taking that action the UK Government has ignored it, tanked the economy putting interest in mortgage rates out of control and failed to act on skyrocketing fuel costs which have seen bills more than double instead simply lining the pockets of energy companies That's what we're talking about here is people trying to afford a roof over their heads food and warmth One constituent summed it up from me last week when she said it's not even the cost of living this isn't living it's the cost of surviving and before I get into the issues the report raises I do want to reflect on the committee's work overall because it's incredibly meaningful to me to work on the committee in this Parliament which deals with scrutinising policy aimed at tackling the worst things that I've been through personally Having that lived experience myself I know how important it is to inform policy through lived experience and I think it's right that we focus so much on this as a committee hearing from individuals as well as organisations who help and represent them It's often difficult to listen to their evidence particularly from our experts by experience some of whom we're still living in a very difficult period in their lives when they spoke to us and it's incredibly important that when we ask people to do that tell strangers about what they've suffered often with associated trauma in the hope that it might change things and really do take action off the back of it In social security perhaps more than any other portfolio in government it is clear that to go further as the SNP Government and I and most here would like to do we have to break free of the UK and its Tory Government's string of harsh and punitive welfare policies We heard consistently and clearly from witnesses throughout the inquiry how much of an impact harmful UK Tory policies like the two child limit the cut to universal credit the under-25 penalty the list goes on had on pushing them into poverty and keeping them there The impact is huge and when we announced that we were doubling the Scottish child payment that news came at the same time as the announcement that the Tories were slashing universal credit it was the largest overnight cut to welfare since World War 2 So we are fighting against the tide in this place and every policy the Scottish Government brings forward to help people seems to be matched or even outdone by the Tories going the other way out of the hands of those who need it and I say this not just to have a pop-up at the Tory UK Government although I am happy to do so but yes I am grateful a very negative speech she is making but I wondered would she welcome the fact that between the 23rd and 30th November there will be a cost of living payment of £324 for people on tax credits is there anything she would welcome that the UK Government are doing to help to support people on tax credits I genuinely struggle to respond to a comment that it's wrong to be negative about such a negative situation we're here discussing the situation that my constituents find themselves in because of UK Government policies and it is very negative it's a negative experience to go through and yes will I welcome changes to the UK Government's decisions well absolutely but we can't rely on one month to the next what our overall budget will be because of these changes and given we can't borrow, can't overspend that's a ridiculous state of affairs to be in but as I was saying I outline these things because I genuinely think a lot of people don't realise how many of the levers we don't have access to and with the Tories down south becoming increasingly litigious around the Scottish Parliament taking decisions it sees as outwith our remit our limited powers are an important bit of context in this debate we are beholding to a right wing Government that decides the high level social security system design and worse our budget the Joseph Rowntree Foundation has estimated 1.5 million people have been plunged into poverty since the Tories took office that is outrageous and it shows that the cost of living crisis we are tasked with tackling is conservative made constituents have asked me over the last year how a government could make such huge mistakes and I'm scared that the answer is that they're not mistakes because my experience of claiming universal credit and PIP suggests that sanctions and punishment for being poor is exactly what is intended by this system Presiding Officer, I'm proud of the work that's going on in the Cabinet Secretary's portfolio this term the work on equalities on preventing homelessness, increasing tenants' rights and tackling poverty is astounding before we even get to the monumental changes being brought through by Social Security Scotland on adult disability payment they are a world away from what I'm used to dealing with through the DWP so if anything proves that we can do better here it's that the Tories can pretend that anyone in the SNP is hiding behind reserve powers but anyone who thinks about it for 10 seconds or looks into it however briefly can tell that that is all it is pretends Thank you very much Mr Sroddock I now call Maurice Golden to be followed by Paul McLean again for around 5 minutes Mr Golden Thank you Deputy Presiding Officer perhaps a rose between two thorns in terms of the speaking line up I'd also like to thank the committee and the clerks for their report before the pandemic over 600,000 Scots were estimated to be over indebted as the pandemic raged Citizens Advice Scotland suggests that 60,000 either saw those debts get worse or were plunged into debt for the first time and the problem is likely to get worse Putin's invasion of Ukraine has seen energy prices skyrocket and households struggling with ballooning bills especially the most vulnerable and they are the ones most likely to face poverty and struggle with debt the committee report points out that disabled people face higher costs 1 in 5 individuals and 1 in 4 families with a disabled child contend with extra costs of over £1,000 per month I also want to raise the impact of digital inclusion Yes, happy to Pam Duncan-Glancy I thank the member for taking the intervention What is the member's view on rumours that the UK Government is considering means testing those essential benefits for disabled people? Maurice Golden That's a matter for the UK Government and I would hope that the member can raise that through the appropriate channels which is about 500 miles south but I also wanted to raise the impact of digital exclusion Representing rural communities I know how difficult it can be for them to access online resources and as the committee report highlights those digitally excluded may take longer to seek help with money problems a delay that can make these problems worse and with so many dealing with debt it's no surprise that advice services are under enormous pressure the committee heard how they are and I quote stretched beyond breaking point Deputy Presiding Officer the crisis facing families is bigger than any one political party so we need Scotland's two Governments to be working together to help those most in need and I note the committee report recommends both the UK and the Scottish Government continue to look at ways to tackle inflation rising energy prices and the cost of living crisis both Governments have already taken action alongside the UK Government yes happy to Siobhan Brown with policies such as the two child cap the benefit cap, five weight weight and also the lower universal credit payments for parents under 25 can I ask the member what impact these policies are having on people facing challenges of debt Morris Golden The UK Government's energy bill cap has helped, they announced a 37 billion pound package to help families with the cost of living crisis and that needs to be focused on balanced against that you've got the Scottish Government failed to eradicate fuel poverty in 2016 as promised SNP policy is to increase the customers electricity bills through heightened transmission charges in order to subsidise predominantly big business that's the reality and that is the problem that SNP and green members have here in this Parliament they're not willing to stand up for their constituents and take the Scottish Government who's failing Scottish families to task but I do welcome the Scottish Government has committed £12.5 million to support debt income maximisation services I hope the Scottish Government take note of the warnings in the report about the severe strain money services are under and also the committee's recommendation on specific funding for services supporting those suffering mental health issues the committee also recommends the Scottish Government and COSLA look into writing off school meal debt my position and that of my party is that parents shouldn't be in danger of running up school meals debt in the first place so let's make school meals free for all children in primary and special schools if a cost of living crisis isn't the right time to do it then when is going back to my earlier comments on digital exclusion I note the committee urges the SNP Government to support access to the internet through public spaces like libraries this isn't a luxury digital access is needed to apply for benefits and other Government services but it's increasingly hard for councils to support such services after years of underfunding by the SNP Government just yesterday we saw the front page of the courier warning a 51 million pound black hole in the Angus council budget across Scotland local authorities have little option but to cut services and raise council tax a combination that only serves to pile more pressure on those already struggling what we really need is a long-term solution to help those trapped on low incomes while preventing people falling into debt to make basic needs that solution is ensuring full employment with high quality, well-paid jobs my party has already offered ideas on this rapid retraining courses especially in the digital sector job security councils to provide meaningful opportunities Deputy Presiding Officer the challenge myself and others are outlining here today is tough to tackle but not impossible we need both Governments to work together thank you very much indeed Mr Golden we've now exhausted most of the time we had in hand so interventions probably will have to be accommodated within your speaking allocation with that I call Paul MacLennan to be followed by Martin Whitfield for around five minutes Mr MacLennan thank you Deputy Presiding Officer and thanks for the opportunity to speak in this debate this afternoon as a member of the social justice and social security committee taking evidence from many groups and individuals was a heartbreaking experience at times the committee looked at the challenges related to low income and debt in Scotland this was to help the committee to develop its priorities for work throughout the session and I think we've already picked up some of these points already and we'll develop these during the session main issues raised were social stigma around about problem debt digital exclusion and accessing support services signposting to free debt advice as we've heard the links between problem debt and health we've heard from Gillian Martin the high cost of childcare in issues with statutory debt solutions the issue of low income and debt has of course worsened since we held the enquiry food inflation is now approximately 15% with some basics increasing by up to 25% UK inflation rate is the highest rate in the G7 modest interest rates have rocketed two year fixed rates are now over 6% energy costs have of course massively increased with the UK Government backtracking on its support package the UK already has the worst poverty and inequality levels in north west Europe the impact of Brexit on the cost of living crisis can also not go unnoticed soaring prices and labour shortages are consequences of a decision that we in Scotland did not make only this morning the era reported today that exports have dropped 13% since Brexit last week I offered Labour MSPs opportunity to stand up and advise me if any benefits of Brexit to Scotland I'll offer that opportunity to Tory MSPs today there we go Brexit is making people in Scotland poorer there is no doubt about that now we can all have political discussions and talk about where today but I want to focus on some of the quotes for witnesses in our sessions Peter Kelly from the poverty alliance said we need to remember that the cost of living crisis comes on top of budgets already being stretched for people on low incomes during the pandemic which comes on the fact that benefit levels were unfrozen only at the start of the pandemic we need to remember the context in which we go on to enquire is one of the most significant that people are facing at this time we must bear that in mind when we think about solutions Miles Briggs talked about the impact of inflation in his speech UK Government must increase the benefit rates by inflation next year that's not being guaranteed by the new prime minister that has to be guaranteed and that has to be taken forward on the two-child limit in food banks Kirsten McHeachney from the Child Poverty Action Group said all families have been affected now however evidence from the First World Trust shows that most more families have been affected by the two-child limit on benefits and increasing the number of families that are doing the children are using food banks which is impacting on early years of a child's life earlier on and well as we've seen some surveys saying that 35% of people under 25 of young families may not be sufficient enough to heat their homes this year we think that there may be a direct correlation between food bank use and the two-child limit said Kirsten McHeachney on a universal credit on rent arrears a tenence federation said the worst thing that was ever done was introduction of universal credit and handling the money to people on their hands I've found that with entries I've gone through the roof since universal credit was introduced support provided today in Scotland is unique and unmatched across the UK the Scottish child payment is unique to Scotland the most ambitious child poverty reduction measure in the UK from the 14th of November the five family payments including the Scottish child payment could be worth over £10,000 which reaches £6,900 for subsequent children that's an incredible help from the Scottish Government in March the Scottish Government also upgraded eight other Scottish benefits by 6% which was around about double in the 3.1 CPI which the UK Government increased benefits by at that time and life of the Scottish Fiscal Commission forecast the Scottish Government has set to invest £4.2 billion in benefits expenditure in 2022-23 providing support to over 1 million people directly to people who need it most and support people to live independent lives the Scottish Government's second benefit take-up strategy published in October 2021 also set out how the Scottish Government is working to ensure people can access the sport they are entitled to fiscal fixability is essential and demand led direct threats such as social security at the moment the Scottish Government is dealing with an inflationary impact for reducing the Scottish budget by £1.7 billion we have a fixed budget with extremely limited borrowing powers we need a realistic fiscal framework renegotiated the UK Government could allow realistic borrowing powers for the Scottish Government within the devolved setup with agreed criteria at this particular stage just now and yet we have Scottish Labour who won't support this we will have the ridiculous position of Labour who would vote against giving this Parliament more powers to deal with this issue Scottish Government supporting most vulnerable with the powers it has it could do much more as an independent country thank you I call Martin Whitfield to be followed by Maggie Chapman for around five minutes I'm very grateful Deputy Presiding Officer and it's a great pleasure to speak in this debate and can I start by extending my thanks and compliments to the committee and in particular the convener for this excellent report that covers so much that affects every one of our constituents day in day out in the short time that I have I'd just like to concentrate on a short aspect namely paragraphs 165 to 174 that deal with school meal debt and I would like to start by thanking Abilaw for their evidence both to the committee but also to thank the committee for the weight that they gave it to this important matter I concentrate on this small part not because of the lack of importance that other matters raise in this report merit but because it would be both a significant and I suggest simple step to alleviate the pressures both on our families but also the children a significant number who are fully aware of the situation and the issues to eat at school and the problems that that causes the family I welcome the conclusion at paragraph 172 with a recommendation the Scottish Government works with COSLA and local authorities to write off individual school meal debt that allow families a clean slate as they move into a new school year and to need possibly into high school a completely new school setting this debt should not follow them and I also echo the committee's call at paragraph 173 to implement its free school meal expansion as soon as possible this echoes of course Scottish Labour's call for the Scottish Government to stop passing the buck to provide funding for all local authorities to write off existing debt relating to the provision of school meals and deliver on their manifesto commitment to roll out free school meals to all ages in Scotland's primary schools and the supports the convener's opening discussion in her speech which I welcomed I do this and call for this on the basis of the evidence that Abilaw submitted to the committee and I believe it's right to put on the chamber record some of the facts that they found the concern at the level of school meal debt in schools across Scotland that indicate many families with children not eligible for free school meals are struggling to afford to feed their children the inconsistent approach across Scotland as to how individual local authorities respond to school meal debt and help and support families in such circumstances who may indeed be experiencing financial hardship there are fewer families eligible for free school meals than 20 years ago as a result of the income thresholds for eligibility failing to keep pace with inflation and there's a real concern of a hidden school hunger particularly amongst our secondary school pupils who do not receive the free school meals so often trumpeted and rightly so for primary 1 to 5 but not P6 to 7 free school meal eligibility free schools currently does not appear to benefit enough low income families the income thresholds for free school meal eligibility along with other benefits for families in receipt of child tax credits is currently £17,005 £7,920 for those in receipt of child tax credit and working tax credits when these thresholds were first introduced back in 2002 the threshold was £13,230 and £5,060 respectively those income thresholds have changed very little over the last 20 years in monetary terms they have failed to keep pace with inflation during that time therefore it's clear the eligibility for free school meals particularly at secondary school has not kept up with inflation how often have we heard the call rightly so that the Scottish Government's budget should be increased because of the inflation well here is an opportunity to show the Scottish Government believe what they say by increasing these eligibility at the very least by inflation and open up free school opportunity free school meal opportunities for those young people in our high schools so can I ask the Minister will the Scottish Government raise the eligibility criteria for free school meals in line with the historic inflation to ensure that more low income working families receive this entitlement and reduce the likelihood of school hunger in our secondary schools and finally I have returned to this in the chamber on many times I will continue to do so article 27 of the UNCRC provides for an adequate standard of living it states that parties recognise the right of every child who has standard of living adequate for that child's physical, mental, spiritual, moral and social development this includes the right to food so when will this Government bring back the UNCRC to this chamber so that our young people can both recognise the rights the Scottish Government and the Scottish people want to give them but possibly more importantly enforce those rights Thank you Deputy Presiding Officer Thank you very much indeed Mr Wakefield I now call Maggie Chapman to be hallowed by Douglas Lomston for around five minutes The United States are poor societies with some very rich people these are not my words but a headline from that well known radical left wing broadsheet the financial times that is the reality we are living in communities where most people are to a greater or lesser extent struggling struggling to eat enough of what they need to stay healthy, struggling to stay warm to give their children what they need to get through the school day without that terrible jolting thump to the heart as they wake and remember the looming bills and for the poorest it's even worse last year the lowest earning 5% of households in Britain were 20% worse off than their counterparts not only in Norway and Germany and Switzerland but in Slovenia too these households, these families couples and single people they aren't doing anything wrong on the contrary most are doing exactly told will be their route out of poverty told will be their pathway to the sunny uplands of prosperity and peace of mind, they are working but as the committee's reports vividly shows us that work and the social security to which our citizens are rightly and fully entitled are just not enough to keep our neighbours our constituents, our friends out of the chilling chasm of debt this isn't debt incurred frivolously the rich take for granted it's food, it's rent it's council tax and school meals the committee makes wise and sensitive recommendations about changes to processes, attitudes resources and regulation but wider reforms are needed too reforms to both work and social security to taxation and the fundamental question what is our economy for we need decent pay for everyone not just about manage if you take three jobs and never see your children pay but pay that means families can thrive can pay their bills and still have a little bit left over can enjoy the short years of childhood instead of merely enduring them that means a genuine living wage and I'm proud that we are making good progress on that here in Scotland we need decent conditions work that brings security, respect fulfilment, equal opportunities and an effective voice for workers that's what the fair work agenda means and all work in Scotland sooner rather than later must become fair work we need wealth redistribution and yes, that means taxing the rich that might make some of us nervous but our constituents are way ahead of us the Scottish social attitude survey published yesterday showed 68% of people agreeing that and I quote more than half of that 68% agreed strongly and only 4% strongly disagreed the Westminster government whichever iteration it's in today likes to talk about having a mandate that 68% sounds like a very clear mandate to me because any quality is not just bad for the poor it's bad for everyone it's bad for individual health and wellbeing for communities, for educational outcomes and economic success during the fleeting fiasco of the Tory plan to scrap the 45% tax band even city traders were not dancing on their desks they were warning how pointless it is to be privately rich and publicly poor we need dignified, respectful, humane and sensitive social security both in terms of its level of payments and of its processes we've endured years of toxic rhetoric from Westminster and the media deliberately inadequate systems and consciously cruel implementation that has literally cost lives I'm thankful that we as Scottish Greens have successfully argued for the mitigation in Scotland of some of that bitter cruelty the bedroom tax, the benefit cap the obscenity of the rape clause there is much more to do and I and I know others are determined to do it one thing we really do need to progress faster is the implementation of a universal basic income something Greens have long supported such a measure places dignity at the heart of our economy one's worth should never be measured by one's ability to contribute only economically our worth as humans goes far beyond being cogs in the labour market machine a universal basic income would also stop people getting penalised by the clawbacks of late or non-payments of debts the Scottish government's work on the minimum income guarantee is very welcome and we need to go further as long as we can and finally we need opportunities for people to build better to co-create a shared future as well as securing their own livelihoods now a truly just transition to a future economy is one which brings everyone along with support for responsible small and large businesses with green jobs in the caring and creative as well as renewable sectors with employment that recognises that we are first and foremost human beings not human resources for that is what our economy is for to sustain us as people and the earth we stand upon if there are wealth creators they are certainly not the billionaires those are the wealth creators we should support this Parliament is rightly spending a great deal of time discussing the cost of living crisis and its impact on our most vulnerable communities and I welcome today's focus on those with low incomes who are in danger of falling into debt we have many great organisations in Scotland who are working on this matter and I would like to particularly mention the work of Christians against poverty and its service to help people who are struggling with debt Emer Jackson, their CEO and giving evidence to the committee to give some concerning figures a third of clients at Christians Against Poverty say that they regularly miss meals because they do not have enough income but a quarter are reporting that they are skipping putting the heating on and about 65% of their clients say that they had to borrow from family or friends to afford food or fuel and this situation is forecast to get worse over the winter in last week's debate I highlighted the work that the UK Government is doing to assist the most vulnerable communities with their heating costs as well as measures to get more money into their pockets and I ran out of time last week Presiding Officer so I won't go over them all again as I attempt to finish on time today you'll be glad to hear the committee makes many observations about action from the Scottish Government that has been promised but as yet unfulfilled the committee welcomes the Government's commitment to undertake a full independent review of the Scottish welfare fund and asks for that to be concluded and published as soon as possible and I understand that the review is now under way and I've asked the minister to clarify the timetable of that review to the Parliament today when he sums up and when can we expect to see its report its recommendations and will they be enacted in time to help those with the crisis over the winter and the committee has called for that to be completed before the end of the year and I'd like to hear if the minister confirm that that will indeed be published this year the committee has also called for COSLA and the Scottish Government to work together to develop national standards for council tax collection and her evidence to the committee Emma Jackson again made this important point but in the response to the committee the Scottish Government have once again passed the buck suggesting that they are not minded to legislate and this is a local government issue the whole purpose of a national standard is that it's developed and agreed nationally so that someone in De Fries and Galloway has the same experience of council tax rears as someone in Aberdeenshire it's not rocket science and it's long overdue the committee also recommends that the Government move ahead with its free school meal expansion as soon as possible the Government's response says that they're committed to do so within the parliamentary term but again there is no timetable and empty promises from the SNP green devolved Government Presiding Officer I would like now to turn to the issue of early intervention and prevention councils are on the front line of our social care provisions and our best place for early intervention but the real term cut of 700 million since 2014 has meant that their ability to provide services have been affected advisors and helpline staff who assist people in dealing with debt are cut to the bone with phone lines often jammed and able to get through to someone who can help Audit Scotland urged the Scottish Government to develop a long term planning approach to address child poverty and warned that their policies are focused on lifting children out of poverty rather than preventing it in the first place which surely should be the most single most important focus for any Government yes I will if you would agree with me that the best is your card in the best and quickest swiftest early intervention in this regard would be to provide a welfare state that addresses poverty at source as opposed to having to mitigate it Mr Lumsden I think the member is missing the point completely what we want to have is a society where people aren't relying on welfare but have the jobs the opportunities to progress the best way to tackle poverty is by providing good education getting people into welfare employment and growing our economy we want to see this Scottish Government commit to developing schemes that provide employment for our young people we want them to tackle the root cause of poverty and we want them to focus on growing our economy the opportunities that our people deserve I want again to thank all those organisations who gave such moving evidence to the committee about the people that they work with and the stories that they told we are facing a very difficult time with many households fearful of the future and how they are going to meet their bills and financial commitments this Government should be doing all that it can to address those needs but instead we get empty promises and diversion politics and there's nothing they can do we believe that there is much much more that the Scottish Government can do including deliver on some of their promises of the past we want to see a fair funding settlement for local authorities so they can deliver the help and services that are required in our communities we want to see the free school meals delivered not promised debt services funded properly economic growth and employment at the heart of Government policy you do need to wind up now Mr Simpson the people of Scotland deserve our Government that thinks about their needs rather than stoke in division and grievance thank you Mr Lumsden and I call Karen Adam to be followed by Michael Marra for around 5 minutes thank you Mr Simpson and I thank their committee for the work there are no words that adequately portray the frustration many of us feel at the moment and many of us have been doing all we can to try and mitigate against the unfolding catastrophe the Scottish index of multiple deprivation identified that in one of the local authorities in my constituency of Aberdeenshire nine data zones within the 20 per cent most deprived in Scotland all nine of those zones can be found in Fraserborough and Peterhead which are both in the constituency of Bampshire and Bucking Coast that I represent this year I held cost of living events and surgeries throughout the constituency and I will manage through this crisis inviting social security Scotland local authorities Citizens Advice Scotland and food banks to work alongside me to provide urgent support and these people came along to help in utter crisis caused by the UK Government's policies under the Tory UK Government inflation has run out of control mortgage rates are at their highest since the great financial crash and energy costs have doubled that is the Tory legacy of government for 12 years yes Douglas Longstone I thank the member for taking the intervention she mentioned fuel cost well she should not agree with me that the biggest factor in that fuel cost rising is actually the war in Ukraine Karen Adam I thank the member for his intervention and I would say to him that it's the responsibility of the Scottish Government to provide stability to its citizens regardless of where that instability comes from just like the Scottish Government provides stability while the UK Government is unstable okay as the cash squeeze continues poverty worsens and financial struggle deepens we know that those with the least amount of money are made to pay the highest cost to live low income families can't afford to bulk buy long-term savings on goods but instead are having to borrow high interest loans to pay for basic food items and that's if they can even get access to credit they don't have the fallback of savings to dip into an arena day because every day is arena day the judgement and lack of basic understanding from the UK Government who should know better is shocking to the extent that supermarket chains such as Morrison's are offering food such as potatoes and beans for those struggling if they use the code words and ask for Henry 315 years of the union 43 years of neoliberal orthodoxy and folk in Peterhead of Reservoir have to use code words at a supermarket chain to get a big tatty with beans because they can't afford food the charitable impulse is decent but my goodness the necessity for it is absolutely no you've said enough there's no doubt that the cost of remaining in the UK has pushed people into poverty destitution and hunger and that Scotland needs the opportunity to break free the differences between the devolved Scottish Government and reserved UK Government are stark and they seek to destroy the wellbeing of our nation we seek to build an economy based on the wellbeing of our citizens even under the limitations of devolution the ambition and compassion of the Scottish Government have seen us introduce many mitigations mentioned by some of my colleagues this afternoon these are the measurements of a government that values the wellbeing of its population many of the witnesses that the committee heard from welcomed so many of these actions from the Scottish Government and this has also been evidenced recently by the Scottish Attitude Survey 74% of adults reported that they trusted the Scottish Government to run Scotland's affairs Presiding Officer what I have detailed are some of the statistics and steps taken to combat the damage being done but behind each and every one is a story of personal tragedy for individuals, families and children a conclusion remark of a welfare officer who advises and supports people suffering from the unlevel playing field people talk about the ability to heat or eat, it's not an option anymore we're facing people that will suffer mentally and physically because they can no longer do either of those we do have the option of a better future though Scotland is a nation rich with energy, world-renowned food and agriculture sector and sustainable fishing industry and we will do so much better with the powers that come with independence I now call Michael Marra to be followed by Manny McNair again for around five minutes Mr Marr Can I begin by thanking colleagues in the social justice and social security committee for the work undertaken in producing this report the debate clearly could not be more timely reflecting on all the contributions we've heard so far people across my home city of Dundee and the whole of the north-east are fearing the winter and the huge debts they know they will end up carrying this inquiry shows what an extraordinary weight that is on the backs of those who can least endure it with interest rates rising even faster than expected due to the disaster of the Tory economic dogma of recent weeks and the grotesque incompetence they've shown debt will have an even greater impact on families the cost of living crisis means that these impacts will be even more broadly felt across the income brackets and debt as we know is so often the trigger on families we must do all we can to lift the burden and that mental weight that comes with it and also the impossible choices that ensue the picture of Scottish poverty is a stark one an economy that does not work for so many ordinary Scots two and three single parents in Scotland with little or no savings to fall back on four in five parents with their baby reports an impact on their mental health because they are worried about money and nearly one in five households on low incomes in Scotland have gone hungry and cold this year and that is before we enter these winter months so with mortgage rates continuing to rise for thousands of people across our country day after day due to that Tory mismanagement it's clear from the reports contents that many more will continue to struggle as the financial pressure of the cost of living crisis increases and the social justice and social security committees report provides ideas to help reverse this increase in poverty and that's why Scottish Labour supports the solutions and the recommendations of the paper and with more people struggling to get by these questions must be answered not just in this report but every day by both the UK and Scottish Government ministers what more can you do to help what more are you going to do to address the fuel poverty that so many people are experiencing the answer Presiding Officer is not another policy review or another consultation we've got plenty of those it's immediate action now immediate action like as the committee reported the Scottish Government making full use of its devolved powers to the fullest possible extent and as we enter an incredibly hard winter we do need practical solutions for low income and debt that will help struggling families now and Scottish Labour has presented a plan that if implemented now would make a positive difference immediately to people's lives our cost of living plan would wipe out the school meal debt, provide funding for debt advice services and relieve people of some of their debt burdens these are real impracticable measures that this Government could take and we know that the actions in our plan such as wiping out the school meal debt will benefit up to 11,000 families but Scottish Labour isn't just suggesting these things we're actually doing them in Labour minority controlled East Dremfisher they've introduced the 4.4 million pound package to help tackle the cost and direct support for the most vulnerable this winter, support for those in communities facing isolation and loneliness support for the Citizens Advice Bureau allowing increased provision of money advice and benefits assistance for residents all of these things that Pam Duncan Glancy and Martin Whitfield have set out already today being put into action by Labour councillors and that's just one council doing whatever they can to help and I know that councils across Scotland are eager to do more if they weren't staring down the barrel devastating cuts they would and could do more to help people who are struggling and this Government could provide funds for money advice centres that can allow them to plan for the long term rather than the short term this precarious nature of one year bits of grant funding here and there is incredibly difficult for the organisation and there's been no extra funding to help with the demand arising from the cost of living crisis as there was during the pandemic and that limits the ability to increase capacity and greater numbers we all know and we all hear daily our seeking support and advice from their Citizens Advice Service and at a time when more people than ever are turning to these types of organisation it's essential absolutely essential that we fund them properly so I do urge the Scottish Government to move quickly and to take up the recommendations from this report. Thank you Mr Marra and I now call the last speaker at the open debate, Mary McNair up to five minutes please Thank you, Presiding Officer I welcome opportunity to speak in this debate on behalf of my constituents it's an important debate at a time when many are struggling to cope with the cost of living emergency the Westminster crashing of the economy has made a difficult and challenging time for many so much worse with inflation out of control mortgages spiralling and the cost of fuel making people choose between heating and eating I'm worried about the emerging situation of people having to borrow to pay for essentials this isn't borrowing to invest in the value of their properties or to buy for example a car to allow them to take up employment no this is borrowing to to actually eat to heat to clothe and to pay rent inside housing recently reported that more than half of social housing residents have used credit to cover essential household costs this is a vicious circle for many and simply unsustainable the Scottish government are doing much within the powers and budgets of this parliament the Scottish child payment set at five times the amount other political parties were calling for the council tax reduction screen more generous in other parts of the UK the mitigation of the bedroom tax the benefit cap, the rent freeze and a monitoring on evictions the £20 million fuel and security fund and millions more in discretionary housing payments to help families sustain their tenancies and at the heart of that a new social security system that is founded on dignity, fairness and respect contrast this with a Westminster system from governance of all political colours that enshrined and promoted stigma the private sector of medical assessments that caused so much misery and pain the sanctionary regime used to horribly deny already inadequate subsistence levels and on the issue of debt a system devised to ensure claimants need to get into debt to avoid going without the five week wait and universal credit does just that it forces people to take an advance and pay it back meaning less in the future months CPI's evidence to the committee on the real impact of this is heartbreaking it fully captures a Westminster benefit system that is frankly setting people up to fail the sight the case of a young homeless woman the DWP are deducting £63.30 a month to recover an advance payment and there are also two other deductions of £8.95 and £8.96 and this lew sir would just £56.02 a week to live on this is senseless I'm therefore not surprised to read the report from the Glasgow University in the Centre for Population Health that concludes that 20,000 excess deaths in Scotland are likely to be caused by Westminster imposed austerity and yet we're still pleading with Westminster to upgrade benefits in line with inflation the Joseph Rowntree Foundation has pointed out that food prices are risen faster than at any point over the last three decades they also said that only upgrading benefits by earnings will leave a shouket Government responsible for the biggest permanent real life terms cut to the basic rate of benefit in a single year Westminster at the very least should upgrade benefits by inflation and get the support needed to those in greatest need Finally, the burden of poverty will take a hit very soon by the onset of Christmas and I know many of my constituents are approaching it with dread there is so much demand on family budgets at this time and I welcome the doubling bridging payment by the Scottish Government that will give some assistance it is appalling however that the Westminster Christmas bonus is still set at £10 in 1972 the Tories introduced this payment and it isn't astonishing that it is still set at £10 today they failed to upgrade it in government and the Liberals in Labour didn't rush to remedy this either and it's estimated that the Christmas bonus would be well worth in excess of £100 if it kept pace with inflation during this cost of living emergency I call on the Tories, Labour the Libs to join with me to demand that is upgraded by inflation and recalculate to the value necessary to compensate for the last 50 years I conclude with my usual mention in tribute to many food banks support groups, advice agencies house associations and council services in my constituency I'm on their side and I thank them for everything they do thank you Presiding Officer thank you Ms McNair we will now move to closing speeches and I call on Foisal Troudry to wind up on behalf of Scottish Labour up to six minutes please Mr Troudry thank you Presiding Officer I would like to thank my fellow members and clerks of the committee for their work in producing this report I think it is a report that we can all be proud of even if the situation it describes falls far short of the ideal as a member of the committee I would also like to thank the many organisation who gave evidences to us for their invaluable contribution I agree with my colleague Pam Duncan Glancy that it was an eye-opening experience the convener of the committee highlighted the section in the report relating to school meals dead and my colleague Martin Whitfield noted how little the thresholds for free school meals have changed in the past 20 years I would certainly hope that the Scottish Government the aspect of this under its control and part of any efforts to combat child poverty I must agree with Paul MacLennan that it is incredibly important for that matters discussed in this report that the UK Government ensure that benefits are operated with inflation and Maggie Chapman rightly noted the problem fundamental to these issues of low pay and in-work poverty and the needs to address these I'm also grateful to Gillian Martin for highlighting the lack of data regarding poverty in ethnic minorities a problem we are all too often faced with in this place my colleague Michael Marra noted the value of Scottish Labour's cost of living plan and where Scottish Labour council have been doing great work to take real action on the cost of living if I may draw out what I see as a common theme that came up again and again in the committee hearing they represented in this report this is the theme of false economy we have systems in place to try mitigate the effects of poverty to try to ease people out of debt but we can see where the failure to provide and promote early intervention can lead into even more costly interventions later Douglas Lumsner noted this an example of this with eviction we hear that there is no moral or business cases for threatening attendant in areas with eviction the committee was told that the cost of eviction a single mail with a low support needs is in the region of 24,000 per eviction we therefore begin to see a picture where every eviction is a failure of the system that should have been there to help and did not the failure in short of the social safety net and this failure cost us even more in the long run Miles Briggs expressed his hopes that UK Government policy on welfare could be looked at where the committee has here that it perpetuates this effect with young parents and I welcome that we see similar problems in the approach of debt missed opportunities which cost everywhere later we cannot afford monetarily or morally to apply this case carrying false economics across our society we clearly need intervention where they are most effective for people's lives and often this end up being more cost effective for the state as well so I would urge the Scottish Government to think very carefully about its policy response to this report we must be vigilant against a penny pinching approach in this early interventions Pam Duncan Glancy has already highlighted the impact of funding cuts for the third sector organisation on the frontlines of this crisis the nature of this false economy means that trying to save money from early intervention service can mean catastrophic cost further down the line and this cost are greater cost to both Government and to the real people's lives behind the figure and case studies we have now all heard about I hope the Scottish Government takes a note of not only the scale of the challenges ahead which the committee has highlighted but also the strategic thinking that will be required to deal with them thank you I now call on Jeremy Balfour to wind up on behalf of the Scottish Conservatives up to seven minutes please Mr Balfour thank you deputy I would like to begin as other colleagues have by thanking all those who aided in the production of this report the convener and my fellow members of the committee the clerks and of course everyone who came and gave evidence to us there's been a lot of work that's gone into this report and I hope that it generally cameras out of those in Scotland who are struggling I thank the convener laid it out very helpfully when she said we need Westminster Scottish Government and local government here in Scotland to work together and if I can say gently to those from the SNP speakers I think that has missed the point of today to simply spend every minute of your speech criticising one of those three and not critiquing what is happening within local government and within Scottish Government then shows the weakness of your argument have Westminster got everything right nor we haven't but either Scottish Government or local authorities and if we need to move beyond this everything bad at Westminster and we need these three groups working together in partnership for the sake of the people of Scotland I want to thank all those particularly referred sector organisations who have sent briefings for this debate Presiding Officer, the report makes clear that there's a real and pressing issue in this country with debt with over 600,000 people in Scotland struggling of debt of various size is evident that this problem simply is not going to go away there are key measures that can be taken in Scotland to move us towards that to help us towards that there's been a number of great contributions that have been made today but I want to focus on a couple of reflections that I believe that are key to solving this crisis firstly there is a need to be person centred to take debt not as a low income issue not as one big issue but to break it down into individual issues we have to acknowledge that each case is different and doesn't fit in exactly into a cookie cutter mode we need to look holistically across many countries of departments to ensure income maximisation that people getting all the help that is available and that we entitled to given that benefits are currently being provided both by DWP and Social Security Scotland it can often be difficult for claimants to be certain that we are getting all the support that is available to them any... Cabinet Secretary Shona Robison Jeremy Balfour will be aware that one of the duties on ministers in Scotland is that they have to promote benefit entitlement does he agree with me that it would be very helpful if the UK Government were to take up the same position and actively promote the reserved benefits that are available to people to try and boost awareness of entitlement Jeremy Balfour, I'll be able to give you your time back thank you I agree with the cabinet secretary that we do need to promote all these benefits actually I have to say that when I visited job centres within my region here in Lovian and when I've had conversations with DWP I actually do see quite a proactive approach clearly more can be done by both Governments and I do think and I welcome what the cabinet secretary and the minister for social security says is that at the official level there is a good work in relationship and I think we have to recognise that and build on that because any stress or toil on people's mental health is good to eliminate Presiding Officer mental health is an issue that is closely wrapped up with debt both as a cause and a symptom as report makes note of 2.5 million adults in the UK with mental health problem considering or an attempt to take their own life while behind on payments during the pandemic 2.5 million my number is tragic and frozen to short relief for burden that can debt bring for so many people are struggling in this way can have a debt and mental health form completed by GP that can get better support and could help write off debt in Scotland GP's can charge around £25 for this form but the rest of the UK we are banned from charging anything at all I will join cause from others for Scottish Government to mimic this ban to ensure that all barriers to access are removed from those that need right to support it's a small step but a step that can be taken that would have a large effect especially in conjunction with wider mental health measures mentioned as we've heard from others today more must be done with campaigns and signposts and as the cabinet secretary said both from this Government and from Westminster and local authorities let's have a look at what's happening on the ground lone parents women disabled people 14.2% of people in Scotland were identified as being in problem debt but only 20.5% of the group sought advice from free debt advice provider Deputy Presiding Officer we need to work harder on this I've raised this point as have other members in Mr Bay and other debates with the cabinet secretary in regard to will she commit to meet with the third sector to talk about third sector funding for three years that commitment still hasn't been given by this Government and I find that disappointing Deputy Presiding Officer we took evidence from those who are offering debt advice who are worried about their own job going forward next year who are struggling with debt this seems to be in a strange position to close Deputy Presiding Officer I've given a couple of steps that could be taken by Scottish Government to help the burden of debt that many are struggling with there is a danger that we go from this chamber this afternoon having had a debate made up political points and passed ourselves on the back but that won't help my constituents that won't help the people of Scotland who are struggling with debt what we need is to lay aside some of our ideology and say practically how can all of us Westminster, Scottish Parliament Scottish Government local authorities help to make things easier we need cross-party conversation we need cross-party working and maybe less political ideology when we speak Thank you Mr Balfour I now call on Tom Arthur Minister to wind up on behalf of the Scottish Government up to 8 minutes please minister Thank you very much I begin by thanking colleagues from across the chamber for their contributions and what I thought was overall a very thoughtful and considered debate as merits such a substantive and well-written report that has been produced before turning specifically to the report to take the opportunity to respond to the issues that members have raised in the chamber Turning first Parm Duncan-Glancy had raised the issue of mental health and moratorium we did obviously provide a response with that in the response to the committee perhaps I misheard what the member said but I wish we want to clarify this is something that we have consulted on and we are considering seriously I would also draw the members' attention to our programme for government commitment in this session so I hope that that provides some reassurance Michael Marra raised a bigger pardon Martin Whitfield I would turn to in the first instance raised two issues with regards to free-scale meal debt UNCRC I think he also raised the issue around eligibility I'm on the latter point happy to reflect where I would recognise that local governments do have a discretion around eligibility we have engaged with partners on the issue of debt I would just note that we do operate with an extremely straight and fiscal circumstances and with regards to UNCRC that is something we are engaging with the UK government on timetable will obviously be dependent upon that process and indeed what decisions Parliament wishes to take when and if that legislation is reintroduced I'm happy to Martin Whitfield I'm very grateful Deputy Presiding Officer on the actual eligibility criteria it does rest with the Scottish Government to increase the earnings amount that would bring those families and particularly those children in secondary school within the remit of free school meals which would make a substantial difference at this time would the Minister undertake to look perhaps again at that and maybe push other interested bodies to try and achieve that Minister I can give you your time back Thank you very much I hope that specific portfolio responsibility doesn't sit with me, I'm happy to consider it but I would just stress as public finance Minister the extremely challenging physical environment which we operate but I recognise this instead of the points that the member raises Maggie Chapman made a very thoughtful contribution and I think she got to the heart of this we obviously want to move to a situation where we're having to react and we distribute we do have an economy that predistributes and works for all and of course a region to long-term aspiration but it does not of course attract the need to take action in the here and now to support people at this most pressing of times Douglas Lumsden asked with regards to the welfare fund review my colleague and Minister for Social Security and local government will be updating the committee soon on that particular matter and finally Michael Marra had raised the issue of support for advice services we're providing £12.5 million in support for advice services I'm sure the member will correct me if I misheard him but I believe he said that we had not provided additional support we have, we're providing an additional £1.2 million to enable expansion of energy advice services probably because this is one general point that's been raised by a number of members which is regards to free year funding and funding for local authority resources I am not going to rehearse all of the arguments we will no doubt have over the coming months as we move into the budget process but the reality is that as the SFC has indicated that we have a real terms cut to our budget and that has of course necessitated difficult choices which have been compounded by the reality that we have had an erosion of our budget in the year of £1.7 billion notwithstanding that, there is a real terms increase in the total funding available for local authorities we set out aspirations around longer term funding through the RSR but as members will appreciate the biggest determinant of funding available to this Parliament is still decisions taken at Westminster by the UK Government and given if I can put it politely the volatility we've seen at Westminster in the uncertainty that creates problems for us having long term funding which cascades down yes we'll give way to the member Jeremy Palf I'm grateful to the minister for giving way he would recognise that civil servants, teachers, doctors are guaranteed funding for three years so why is the third sector different from that I think the member makes an important point we obviously have within government their legal commitment for things that we have to fund but the reality is to provide certainty for the Scottish Government to be able to provide more certainty we require more certainty and as members will be aware as I don't want to labour this point but we are very much dependent under the fiscal framework upon decisions on public spending taken by the UK Government and as the member will appreciate we are in a period of extreme uncertainty and we will not have more clarity until the 17th of November and while we await to see what comes out of that the mood music just now is that there's going to be a significant change that this is going to potentially be a return to austerity so that creates an almost impossible situation for us I could give you numbers but these numbers could become completely meaningless the other side of the 17th of November now I don't want to turn to the committee's inquiry because its report brought into stark focus the price many Scots are paying for living under a UK Government that has overseen growth and inequality and poverty that long predates the current cost crisis and as we have now been hearing Brexit has made and is making and will continue to make all of us poorer and the economic chaos visited upon us by the mini-budget and individuals for many years to come exacerbating the challenge and circumstances where we were already facing everyone is hearing of friends and relatives now facing eye-watering increases in their mortgage payments inflation on everyday goods like food is at record levels and shows little sign of a baiting and while the rise in energy cost is a global phenomenon the Westminster Government is doing less than others including ending the energy price guarantee in April something that appears to be a direct consequence of the reckless decisions taken decisions taken at the mini-budget and as a consequence more Scots are at risk of robbing Peter to pay Paul but this is not the approach that this SNP-led Government has taken. Our commitment to fair work seeks to give people an effective voice, opportunity, security fulfilment and respect and it's also been ensuring that work pays and offering a route out of poverty that is sustainable that is one reason why we are providing an additional £140 million every year to local government to help them reach a pay settlement for their employees which provides more support for those on the lowest incomes a good example of this Government doing is the Cabinet Secretary for Social Justice made clear in our opening remarks all that we can with the powers that we have to tackle poverty, protect people from financial harm and mitigate the effects of Tories being Tories at Westminster. I apologise I'm really pressed for time now to respond to the interventions. Our response to the committee's report was published in September setting out the significant range of actions being taken by national and local government and partner organisations to improve the lives of everyone on low incomes and facing problem debt. Some of these have been mentioned today including £3 billion allocated this year to mitigate increasing costs in households one billion of which is only available in Scotland. A package of family benefits which is more generous than in Wales including the Scottish child payment which later in November will have increased by 150% in less than eight months. The unique baby box now in its fifth year with nearly quarter of a million delivered across Scotland and additional £150 million provided to children in receipt of free scale meals last year and this through bridging payments with a December payment being doubled to £260 £88 million in discretionary housing payments to support households with housing costs. Predictions against increasing rents and eviction action through the tenant protection bill, £12.5 million invested this year in advice services and a further £2.3 million for the earlier resolution and advice programme. We also have an important story to tell on council tax reduction. The council tax reduction scheme is effectively Scotland's oldest protection measure and has been in place since 2013. Currently 450,000 households benefit from this on average resulting in savings of £750 per year for recipients. However, as the committee sets out there is more that could be done to make people aware of their entitlement supporting those experiencing difficulty in paying council tax and creating greater consistency in collecting council tax. I undertake to fully explore with COSLA how we might take forward the committee's recommendations in this regard. Scotland has also developed a set of far-sighted protections and statutory debt solutions for people facing issues of problem debt with debt advice at the heart of these mechanisms. We identified and responded quickly to the COS crisis as we did during the pandemic and have already introduced a number of protections for people who are most financially vulnerable. We have reduced bankruptcy application fees and removed all fees for those on certain benefits introduced in response to the pandemic but now made permanent. We have increased the moratorium period giving individuals six months' breathing space free from creditor pressure. That is also now permanent. We have increased the level of debt required for the creditor to pursue bankruptcy for the courts, now fixed at £5,000 as compared with £3,000 prior to the pandemic. From today, the protected minimum balance that can be retained from a bank arrestment is executed rises to £1,000 promoting greater financial resilience. The committee rightly highlighted the strong links between problem debt and mental health and as I said to Mr Duncan-Clancy I can assure members that we are working across government to design and implement bespoke protections for people experiencing financial and mental health crisis. The hugely successful direct debt arrangement scheme or DAS remains the UK's only statutory debt repayment scheme. Recent improvements have seen increased participation bringing important protections for those taking control of their debt and I can confirm that more action is planned on flexibility. I recognise that it can be challenging for people paying towards their debt through DAS and the current economic chaos will be amplifying those challenges. The committee has made a number of recommendations relating to fees and debt ceilings and I will consider all of these carefully not least at a stakeholder round table later this week but I can announce that I plan to bring forward additional protections to help people manage and paying their debt later this year and I also look forward to discussing that later this week. I thank the committee members and everyone who gave evidence for the input to and extensive work on this inquiry. Most importantly we should all be grateful to everyone who shared their at times harrowing experiences of debt and financial insecurity. I do not underestimate how traumatic reliving those experiences will have been for some but I hope that they know that we hear them, they have been listened to and where we can do so. I also thank colleagues for their contributions to this debate. It has provided us all with a somber opportunity to reflect on the pressures faced by households across Scotland but it does not have to be this way Presiding Officer. Scotland is a wealthy country with a Government who works hard to do the right of our people. We have lower taxes including on council tax and water charges Presiding Officer there is much more that we can do. I recognise growing up in the area that I did in Scotland, the difference that having a Scottish Parliament has made compared to what the situation was for my people who grew up in my area 40 years ago. With independence Presiding Officer we can do so much more. I now call on Natalie Donne to wind up the debate on behalf of the social justice and social security committee. Up to seven minutes please Ms Donne. The striking evidence taken during the committee's inquiry and the contributions that have been shared in this afternoon's debate have been very powerful. I'm pleased that we've had the opportunity today to reflect on both the social justice and social security committee's important report and the wider context of the cost crisis which is causing significant hardship across Scotland. We've heard substantial accounts from colleagues and the committee which have served to highlight the stark and at times really difficult accounts that we heard from our experts by experience, witnesses and third sector organisations and I'm grateful for the contributions from all members today across the chamber and from the government. I'm also grateful to the clerks for all their work associated with this inquiry. As we've heard this afternoon our inquiry highlighted a number of specific challenges faced by people who are struggling with both low income and debt. Member's speeches have covered a lot of areas such as the wide scope of this inquiry and we'll try to capture some of these points in my closing comments. As the convener stated earlier the evidence that we received around public sector debt and council tax debt was striking. There are examples of councils working with people in a holistic way and working with each other across local authority departments to join the dots of debt owed for housing or council tax or school meals and put individual support in place. But this is not true across all authorities. Some councils are taking proactive steps to write off specific debts and work on debt management with clients. However, there is a feeling that others are making up for lost time during the pandemic and pursuing debt in a very proactive and at times aggressive way. We know that people can be scared to answer their telephones or to answer a knock on the door and we know that can cause worry anxiety and a deterioration in mental health. A consistent and compassionate approach is needed across all council areas. A number of today's contributions have focused on free school meals and rightly so. Our inquiry shows that with the current accrual of school meal debt families are struggling to feed their children now. We welcome the Scottish Government's commitment to expand free school meals to all primary school children but urge the Scottish Government to implement its free school meal expansion as soon as possible and urge local authorities to finalise the works to allow the expansion to be delivered. By combining the individual write off of existing school meal debt and preventing future accrual of debt in this area we can eliminate this public debt which only burdens low income families. Moving on, I want to highlight evidence received on the relationship between debt and mental health. Mental health can be both a cause and a symptom of debt problems creating a vicious cycle which can be extremely difficult to break. There are many challenges in providing money advice to people with mental health but it should also be an important consideration in service delivery.  As the minister alluded to in his closing remarks, people with debt problems in Scotland have the opportunity to enter a moratorium on diligence which stops creditors being able to take debt enforcement action against them. The committee called for this to be adapted to provide better help for people in mental health crises. We hope that practical proposals will be brought forward as a result of the Scottish Government's consultation on debt solutions and diligence. Looking also at physical health the committee took evidence that people living with disabilities face higher living costs and are more likely to live in poverty. Contributions by the Health and Social Care Committee, Gillian Martin echoed this and some of the stories she shared were sobering, highlighting the extent and outcomes of increased spending that those with poor physical health and disabilities are currently experiencing. No one should be falling into debt to keep either them or their family members alive. For some people with low incomes, bankruptcy may be the only way to get a clean slate. We looked at the statutory debt solutions available to people with low incomes to see if any changes should be made to this legislative framework. Here we made recommendations around application fees for bankruptcy and minimum debt thresholds. I note the opportunity for quick action through the Scottish Government's consultation on debt solutions and diligence. Digital exclusion is another area that has been picked up on by numerous members today that was highlighted regularly within the committee evidence sessions. We heard that this is holding people back from accessing debt advice, applying for jobs and benefits. The committee has asked the Scottish Government what measures it has taken to support access to free internet services and devices in public spaces. We have also asked the Scottish Government to work with the UK Government and stakeholders to consider if a model similar to that used during the pandemic could be developed to allow access to trusted money advice websites. We welcome the Scottish Government's commitment to enhance funding for connecting Scotland which can provide free internet access for up to two years for those most in need for the remainder of this parliamentary session, but overall urge the Government to consider how it can support low-income households to continue to access an internet connection in the longer term because it is absolutely vital that families making difficult budgeting decisions are not forced to sacrifice internet access when online connectivity provides an essential lifeline to many services. Our inquiry in today's debate have highlighted a number of key areas where we may wish as a committee and as a parliament to undertake further, more in-depth scrutiny in the future. We thank the Scottish Government for its response to our report and we look forward to receiving a response from COSLA and the UK Government to aid our discussions on next steps. In isolation some of the committee's recommendations might seem small, but collectively they could make a significant improvement to people with low incomes who are trying to manage problem debt. But change will require cooperation between local authorities as well as the Scottish and UK Governments. Change will require us to listen to people's experiences on the ground with compassion and empathy. For change we need to reach out to people and offer support and not always expect them to know where to go and what to ask. As one debt advisor told us during our inquiry a lot of people fall into debt due to a change in circumstances like a relationship breakdown, bereavement, losing a job or having a child. People don't decide to spend, spend, spend and then be in debt. The idea of willful debt is a myth or certainly in the clients that I see. This is not fear. There should be no stigma to being in debt. Everyone deserves the opportunity for a fresh start. Thank you, Presiding Officer. Thank you, Ms Donne. That concludes the debate on Robin Peter to pay Paul, low income and the debt trap. It is now time to move on to the next item of business. Point of order, Alex Cole-Hamilton. Thank you very much, Presiding Officer. I would like to see your guidance on the procedures surrounding the correcting of the official report. On 29 September the First Minister told the chamber that under this Government we have a position where our net energy consumption is already provided by renewable energy sources. That is of course not true. Indeed, Liam Kerr raised the point of order at the end of FMQs asking whether the record would be corrected. However, outside the chamber it is the statistics that has been misrepresented before. The First Minister said on 1 November 2021 that we virtually decarbonise our electricity supply just short of 100% of all the electricity that we use is from renewable sources. John Swinney on 7 September this year said that we have now got 100% self-sufficiency and our electricity requirements from renewables. The same week the First Minister said that almost 100% of our entire electricity production comes from renewables. I of course appreciate that those further examples are not matters within the Deputy Presiding Officer's purview, but I do believe it is of relevance that there is a pattern of misrepresenting this statistic. It's a statistic that is at the very heart of the issue of Scotland's energy security. Therefore, that is of relevance to the energy bills of millions of people in these uncertain times. The Ministerial Code quite clearly says it is of paramount importance that ministers give accurate and truthful information to the Parliament correcting any inadvertent error at the earliest opportunity. Ministers who knowingly mislead the Parliament will be accepted to offer their resignation to the First Minister. Point 5 of the guidance on the correction of inaccur