Nate, did you not shave again? That's why we can't see you. Oh, I'll get it going in a second. I didn't shave though, no. Ben, I wanted to tell you if you ever get some sort of weird email from me that doesn't make sense. It's because my son's name is also Ben and the computer automatic fills in the last email for the last Ben I wrote to. Gotcha. So just either ignore it or let me know you were the wrong Ben. Okay, gotcha. That sounds good. Well, you chose a good name for your son. And Nate appears, I think so. Matt, it's magic. I hope we'll see you soon Robin, but I'm trying. So let's go ahead and call the meeting to order at 6.05pm on Wednesday, August 26th. And first we have announcements. Can we just do a roll call attendance? I'm sorry. Yes. Yes. Okay. A roll call attendance. So let's, let's begin with Pat off. President. Robin Fordham. President. Jane Mark part. I don't know how to change it on there. I'll change it for you. I need to do it permanently because I was in a class and everyone was calling me Jane and I realized I don't use that outside of home. So, or France. Jane Shetler. Here. Any startup. Yeah. And Jane walled, I'm here too. So this is being, this is a meeting happening by zoom because of the prohibition on in person meetings. If there are members of the public who want to join us. If you're not already here, then you can't see the link on the, on the screen, but you can go to the town website to the calendar and pick up the link there. There'll be a public comment period for the end of the agenda. And at that time we'll entertain comments from members of the public. But members of the commission may not need to respond to comments. Anyone who wants to make a comment should raise their hand. They'll have a signal their presence. And they'll have roughly three minutes to speak. So we can begin with announcements. And I don't know, Nate, if there is a writer's walk qualifies as an announcement. Sure, we'll make it an announcement. So Anthony did put the quotes out for. And he's done that and they're due September 3rd.  So, you know, hopefully by mid September, we'll have some affirm under contract to fabricate the signs. Wait, wait a minute. Are you telling me. The bids went out for the writer's walk signs. Yes. That's the first part of that. I didn't click. Wow. So something I did work or it didn't. And after the last meeting, I sent an email to the town manager's office and his supervisor. And I said, we really need to move this along. Great. So thanks everyone. Yeah, no, Jen, I think, I think the pressure helped to move, you know, Anthony has so many projects he's doing. And so, you know, I think sometimes it's, he doesn't know how to prioritize, right? I mean, who tells him to prioritize projects, but I think us pushing him enough made him realize it was a priority. Great. Super. Thank you for following up. I know I reminded you a lot. Your price stick is seeing my emails, but hey, whatever works. No, I'm glad I'm excited for it to happen. It's good news. Absolutely good news. Yes, long time and coming and bring the champagne. It's not quite here, but yeah, let's, let's start stocking up. Forget toilet paper. Just do champagne. And the other announcement is the, I just learned just this week that the CPA proposals will be due in mid October instead of December this year. So the CPA process has been moved forward to align with the new kind of budget cycle with town council. So, you know, staff just talked about it the last day or two.  And I'm not sure the CPA committee's made that announcement yet, but. The farms will be online once it is ready to go. It wants it should be online once it's ready to go. Okay, I just know people who are thinking about it. And I think for the historical commission, you know, staff had said, you know, we've mentioned that the cemeteries have been getting a lot of attention so, or I should say, I don't know if it's negative attention but, you know, this summer we received a number of calls about the landscape and West Cemetery, you know, not being mowed or the condition of the headstones and both will in North and South Cemetery and West Cemetery so the historical commission has money for headstone restoration in West Cemetery but hasn't ever requested money for North or South Cemetery so staff thought that could be request. DPW also wants to finish the fence in West Cemetery so you know we, gosh it's probably like 10 years ago we put in the town, you know, put the full wrought iron fence for around most of West Cemetery but the south and east boundary was never finished. It's still a chain link fence and so last year they worked, they, they, you know, asked for quotes from a fence company and so that's something that could be brought forward but. You know, it's just for the commission to consider there is a few outstanding projects and CPA but we were thinking if we, you know, bundled cemeteries as, as a, as something you know, you know, as a, as a one project so even if there's many pieces to projects we'd say you know, you know they bring in tourists there's families there it's you know there's a number of reasons why we could call cemeteries as one project and have a few things going but it's just a consideration. We don't, you know, it's not on the agenda for tonight but for next meeting we could talk about it. So I just want to announce that the CPA is we do sooner this year and we can come up with projects. If we did a cemetery request, could we put in money for the sheep. Yes, I think we could. You know, my thought would be, we had returned money in West Cemetery we had some money for the landscaping, we had money for the African American section that had been returned for lighting that had been returned, just because they never, you know, they were made. You know, we were kind of bankrolling and they never, you know, I don't think there's ever any idea of how much work would take but you know, Ben and I even talked about we could do request money to come up with a new landscape plan or a site plan for West Cemetery so. So Martha Lyons or then it designed at the West Cemetery plan but it's it's dated now so there could be a request for some money just have someone help with the overall site plan and design for West Cemetery. Thank you for bringing up the seat because I actually have been thinking about that. I'm a young man that I spoke to who was very enthusiastic about willing to help us but but in order to do that process we need to have him come and take a look at the site and see what's growing there and I don't have any kind of a bid from him I don't know because he was going to come in the spring. COVID, everything just came to a screeching halt so I need some guidance as to how to involve him, maybe before the fall if we wanted to get a input from him whether he thinks he can, it's right place for his sheep, and what it would cost. Yeah, Pat I think if you have an email you could copy Ben and myself on an email and we could do a site visit there and you can take a look. Yeah, I mean my thought would be if we think if we like the idea of kind of bundling things for a West Cemetery or the Cemetery is we could list a number of things that would be included in the funding whether it's you know even if we needed to hire a landscape company for a weekend to pull all the woody shrubs that have grown up around the headstone so the sheep may help with grasses and they may help to foliate things but I think at some point we actually need to physically manually remove some of the shrubs and trees that are growing so you know even if we said okay you know we could call Taylor Davis and say how much is what it costs and you know maybe that becomes part of the request and so you know just I don't have any answers I'm just you know I think it's something we can have on the agenda for next meeting and come up with ideas. I did from the sheep guy that would be yeah I will be in touch with him because I we left it hanging because it was winter and we said we'll get back to you in the spring and of course this spring has been so unique but but I would be more than happy to get back to him and ask if he's willing to do that and then Nate and Ben get in touch with you and we'll figure out a time. I think we could call, like I said Taylor Davis got a quote for some shrub removal, a DPW had a quote from a fence company that we could get that updated so we could get you know a number of things together and bundle that as one request to the CPA committee if you know if that's what the commission likes. In what sense of how the capacity of the monument company to undertake multiple projects. Yeah, we, they were eager, it's funny, it's, yeah COVID really did, you know, they were hoping to come back this, this spring and then that never happened and then, you know, just this summer is kind of kind of happened quietly this, the town council, you know, approved a lot of the CPA request for fiscal year 21, which included another 50,000 for headstone restoration in West Cemetery so currently there's $100,000 in headstone restoration in West Cemetery but at that amount of money, you know it triggers a different type of procurement so But is this the third one or the second one? This is second and third, right? Third, yes. So why would it, couldn't it be done in two separate phases so wouldn't trigger the 100,000 or more? I think now that we have the money, you know, that may be considered bid splitting so it, you know, I emailed Anthony just to ask about that or I just have an email in the works just because, you know, we had done it earlier. So it doesn't look good though if, you know, I think, you know, even if we had done it and we can't just keep rolling a contract or amending a contract so every time we get new money we have to then do new procurement and so, you know, we can't always sole source it to, you know, a monument conservation collaborative so at some point we have to seek a competitive bid but It'd be nice if they could at least do this part and keep rolling along. Sorry, Jenny, you froze there for a bit, were you? Sorry. It'd be nice if they could at least do part two this fall rather than waiting another winter. Right. You know, since that was already in the works. Can I clarify something quickly because it was mentioned that there might be some kind of report on the condition of West Cemetery. I mean, we're not looking for, we're not looking to redesign the cemetery we're simply looking at a sort of status report of what's there and, you know, sort of on a maintenance level, right. And also, you know, at one point the deal was in the older section to have, you know, kind of make it a meadow and have maybe, you know, whether it's grazing or you only twice a year mowing, but that was never really fulfilled. And so the West Cemetery plan had, you know, whole landscape design. So certain sections would have, whether it was historical plantings and seeding, maybe lighting, and that was never really completed too. So yeah, right. It's not redesigning in the sense of, you know, moving graves or headstones or markers is kind of, you know, it's putting, you know, seeing what could be done with what's there. I do think it's interesting that you have got letters or requests from people about headstones and the condition of the landscaping. You know, cemeteries are really important in America. They're the first public parks, really. People, you know, they use them for recreation before Olmsted. So I think it's fascinating to me that COVID has actually prompted maybe a little bit more awareness or attention or just people are looking for outdoor spaces more. Really, really fascinating. Yeah, we've had requests for, you know, both North and South Cemetery, you know, for a headstone restoration there. And then we've also had a few requests for installation of new monuments or markers and I think North and West Cemetery from families. So, yeah, I mean, I don't know whether it seemed like it was pretty active this summer in terms of inquiries to the town so. Well, it's the keeper of history of a town, the headstones, and that's important to keep them restored and it's another form of marking, marking history. It's important, I think. I guess there may not be room there for our Civil War tablets. No, because it would help more. Oh, because, yeah, yeah, because they would be too fragile. Yeah. So we will, we can continue the conversation about the cemeteries and CPA next time but this is a good way to the discussion of Civil War tablets and a site visit that has taken place. Sure, I'm just, just so there's two attendees who I'll make analysts who I believe are part of the Civil War tablet with Anika. What's happening here. I said, Dr. Dr. Shabazz. And then I think Anika you're on the phone. It's not Anika, it's Deborah Bridges. Hi Deborah. Okay, great. Okay. Hello. Yeah, so I'll, I'll jump in. That's okay. I just wanted to basically provide everyone an update from where we left off last time. So I think, I think last meeting focused mostly on the demolition by law so maybe it's been like a month or so since we talked about the Civil War tablets and I think I went to visit the tablets at Ruckston and I think just with this with staff and basically found the tablets in the DPW garage there. And they were kind of in this garage that, you know, was there, they were pretty obstructed and hard to get to and also generally like not the most sanitary condition so I decided to call off like a site visit with the Historical Commission and postpone that until it was either safer to visit Ruckston or we had found a better place to store the tablets and then that kind of led to conversations with within town hall about where, where we have the facilities to store the tablets and and possibly even like on crate them and inspect them to see kind of how they're doing. And I was working with Jeremiah who's the facilities manager for the town. And certainly Chris the planning director as well as Rob more of the building commissioner and we kind of put our heads together. You know with input from Dr Shabazz and Deborah Bridges and Nika and we said kind of settled on the bank center as a possible location. There are a number of reasons. It's easy to access. And also right now, because of COVID, a lot of the programming or pretty much all the program has come to a halt. And, you know it's unclear how long that will be the case but right now there's like rooms in the basement that are unoccupied and likely to be unoccupied and you know well into next year. So, myself, Jeremiah, I'm no kind of Shabazz who's with us and Deborah, I guess was that just last week, I forget, last week or the week before possibly we went to, we kind of did a site visit to the bank center, where we looked into kind of just like a plan for how this could all work. And then we identified the, what's called the pole room in the basement of the, near the Musanti Health Center, and it's a pretty big wide open room, and it's accessible via a ramp that comes down from the, from the ground level. There's maybe a tight turn, but we think, you know, the tablets could make it through. And so the plan, you know, tentative plan might be to bring the tablets into that, you know, larger, what's called the pole room, you know, be able to inspect them, while when they're in there, possibly uncrate them, inspect them, have them possibly restored if need be, and then fairly close by, like right down the hallway is a utility closet. So if there is programming that is scheduled for that room or the room needs to be used, or, you know, we haven't found a location for the tablets for the long term, like they could be recreated in place in that utility closet, kind of for hopefully not super long term, but long term storage until we find a solution so at this point it's kind of moving up the chain of command, you know, we've been talking about it in the, in town hall and ultimately, you know, we can make a recommendation to the town manager is kind of how I see this playing out and they feel free to chime in but I think it's, it's something that, you know, should have been probably for the tablets but I kind of need to think throughout the logistics of it at this point. Ben, also, you did mention to us that they are also stored with road salt, which is very corrosive. So it's imperative that they be out of that facility or garage to put them in a garage. I mean, but there are, we did say that there's salt stored in there and that's very, that's just unacceptable. And speaking with the director, where the senior center is, bank center, that one is not going to be used for quite some time and it would be perfect for them to be in there. It's temperature controlled and also where people, they have to be uncrated to see what condition they're in. And you also mentioned about maybe building like an easel type structure to put each one, you know, in there, which would be great because people could actually come and look at them. But they really, it's imperative that they be out of there as soon as possible. Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. I agree and I think it's, it's a matter of kind of figuring out those logistics at this point and is it just a matter of just getting movers of some type of movers who who, you know, can move something that heavy and get it in there because the longer they're in there with the salt and whatever it could be destroying them as we speak. There are a sense of when you say that they could be there that the room won't be used for quite some time. Is that like a year or longer? I think so. I'm sorry. I spoke to the director there she and she was all for it. She said because it really, it could be, it could be January or or longer. They said that nothing will happen. They said that nothing will take place through, through January. It's possible things may, may happen after January. There's no definite reopening, but the room is definitely ours through January. Yeah, so I think, you know, Ben, you know, but yeah, I think when we, when we first looked at this, we thought the tablets would could stay in Rockston but the realization is they should be moving to another location for temporary storage and the, the thought was the bank center, the poll room is big enough that they could be uncrated and that gives opportunity for them to be viewed both by the commission and the team here but also by consultants. We, you know, the hope would be that once they're, if they could be uncrated and, you know, we could have, you know, the ideas to have consultants come and look at them and give an assessment of their condition and possibly make new crates and then move them out of the poll room to this other storage room in the bank center.  The bank center I think was mentioned because it's ground level and it is easy to get the tablets in and out in the, in the, and they can all be stored in one room. I'm not really. Yeah, just a question. I think when we had this discussion previously there was some question whether they could actually be displayed in the bank center. Is that a possibility to display temporarily they wouldn't, it wouldn't be the permanent. Yeah, I think if there's displayed now would just be temporarily and then the discussion is still whether or not the bank center could become, you know, a permanent home but that's not really as part of this step it's really about trying to get them out of the context and to note to a more standard. I'm, I'm, I'm asking the question whether because because the bank center is a community center it's the senior center it's the health center. People have access to it handicap access access in every way. There's lots of, of corridor and wall space in there, and it's temperature controlled is, is there any possibility that along the walls, there could be a display of the tablets and they could be project protected. I like how you're thinking when I went to the banks to see the room that the pool room or that we're talking about as I walk through I look to the left at this area that it seemed to me could very well be a place where we might build a display. But at this point I want to underscore what Deborah Bridges was saying, we just need them out of the ruckston facility. That is that is a very urgent situation we need your help to to alert the chain of command to alert the town manager to to get them out of there. And, and then once we are able to uncrate them see what their condition is. Take care of them in the in the pool room and then from there, it is my thinking, we can then really begin to accelerate the process of thinking about a long term home, as long as they're sitting in there in ruckston. It is no good for the tablets. It's no good for this process of getting something done. Let's get them out of the ruckston facility. Let's get them to the pool room, and then from there see the condition of them and and and from there, really start to think where is a ideal where is a place. It might well be in that in that area where I don't think anything really goes on there. But I have to see, we have to see the tablets, we have to see what their condition is. We have to see what type of pedestals or base. So it would need to rest on and how much space that would take up before we could really answer 100% what you're raising about the about the bangs or really about anywhere else we have to see the condition, and we have to be able to assess what kind of support they need in being displayed. So let's get them out of ruckston number one. Let's get them to the bangs where we have a space for them at least for four months. And then in that in that window of time, let's we can then figure out where, where we want to permanently house these tablets that would be that's that's my statement for you this evening. Thank you. How about a fine move that we authorized Jane to write a letter. Can I ask a question first. Can DPW safely move these grades, or does it need special handling. At first they thought if they're maybe going to the North Amherst school they could move them. But they sense, you know, determine that it would be better to hire someone else I think they're, you know, when we asked the conservators a few years ago they you know they they mentioned having a rigging company or someone who does professional moving you know it doesn't. So, there is leftover CPA money from a number of years ago when we when the town clean the tablets. And so have money to hire a mover if we need to. And so, you know, my thought is with that money, we have the ability to hire a mover and we could hire a consultant to look at the to look at the tablets and assess them again. It's a big relief to me that someone who can responsibly move them. Yeah, I think in DBW, they feel like cooperative to like, you know, prepare ruckston for them to be able to go for it's happy to move around the equipment so they can get access to easier. Yeah, what can we do to get us to this next process of moving the tablets to the bank center. Yeah, I think. Yeah, just just following on with that I'm my thought is that that between now and January is not a whole lot of time. Do we know we do we already know consultants that we could call on and to be able to line them up pretty soon after the tablets are moved.  So, so I was gonna say at least for the first step, you know if the Commission like said the idea of the bank center. You know my thought is that's part of the letter and it's also maybe just to say a climate controlled space that's big enough for them to be displayed and so you know what if that becomes a room at the middle school, or the south Amherst campus you have a school there I think the Jeremiah the facilities manager like the bank center but now there's you know there's some consideration about you know what if what if that did become active again in January is it worth a move now there for a few months that having to move them again but I think I think for the Commission it would be important to write a letter or you know indicate the desire to get them out of Roxton into a climate controlled and that's you know that's kind of step one. You know I kind of wrote down the list of four steps here and I think you know the next one is looking at them and having them temporarily displayed and assessed. And then, you know, one is to get them possibly recreated have new crates made so when the consultants store them, you know, Irving one of the conservators indicated that the crates you know they're sturdy but they were never meant for long term term storage you know maybe. I don't say I don't think like two years at the most and so he was saying that if they were going to be stored again, you might want to have new crates made. And then you know having thinking of a new location and so you know I think an inside location is good you know bank centers one option. You know I think the Jones library is still a possibility you know there are people like that idea. I'm not really going through the redesign but you know I, we haven't discussed that with the library and I'm just throwing it out there you know years ago when a few years ago when the circle society and library we're talking about possibly having, you know, an annexation or property and getting a bigger historical society and library, they were the board of trustees of the library were pretty open to this. I think the town staff I wasn't a part of it they met with them and their ideas about having a pretty big space where they could be displayed, you know that's changed now but at the time, you know everyone was pretty excited about it. So, I'm just saying that you know, I think we could, if we're thinking about new locations we could, you know, think of, you know we could be pretty creative and then, you know, just kind of feel their opportunities with different people. Okay, so we should, we should work on the letter. Yep. Oh, do that. ASAP. Yeah, I agree I think it'd be great to get them out I didn't realize salt was being stored there so that is a corrosive environment night. Yeah, there's like those huge, I don't know, I can't say for sure that there actually is salt being stored there but the big like attachments that they put on the DPW trucks to actually solve the roads are like stored there vertically like, you know, 15 feet tall is big drums. Right. But yeah, they're definitely in the way that's for sure. Right. I was under the impression that you did say that there was salt in being stored in there but whether that is, you know, the equipment has it on there. Yeah, the thing is they have been in there too long. Yeah, they've been too long. Jane, do you need a motion from the commission to summarize our concerns and send a letter. Why don't we do that so that it's, it has, it has the weight of emotion. I like that. That's what I was afraid to do a few minutes ago. Sorry, Dan. And I also say that I don't think we should push to have them recreated because that's just going to be money that they'll say well then we don't need to find a permanent space for another 10 years or so you know we've just spent money on having them recreated I think it'd be better to push to find a permanent exposition location. I wholeheartedly agree and I, and I, I don't, and I think if we kick the can like that and recreate, then there's no, you know, we're back to maybe another 20 years before something gets right. The beauty of moving it to the bangs, having a few months window, it kind of puts a time, a time push on us to, to figure this out and as to people to help us figure it out. You know, I've, I've activated on calling folks just here at UMass at to our landscape architecture and regional planning of folks I've spoken to one of our architecture professors. We have local resources to help us think through this and some of that, some of those calls I made was when we were still thinking about more options and whether there's some type of material. We could store we could place the tablets in that would be protected from the elements but whether we rule out outdoor possibilities whether we're focused on indoor possibilities we have local resources here that can help us think through the ideal conditions for presenting them. And then it's just a matter of us identifying the space that will that will welcome this and and really, and again along with what was said this evening, the bangs is very centrally located, it's there's a lot to it but again you'd have we'd have to design that figure it out, talk to the occupants of the space who utilize the space they know best what what they what their needs are so and if it can work out it may maybe it can work out if other options come up that present themselves as a as a better ideal because then we can we have a window to look at that but I don't think we need to kick the can down and and worry about this for another 20 years I think we can we can we have a little timeline of three four months. That's ideal, because then we, it sort of pushes us to think this through and figure this out. That's a good point and I think, you know, when, you know, when they're, when they are viewed for a few months, in addition to doing, you know, a physical assessment of them. You know, Ben and I talked today and said it'll be great to hire someone to determine the parameters for both inside and outside display so you know not saying one or the other but actually having whether it's an architect or, you know, a geologist or a team of people kind of do some assessment or just you know look at the stones and then say okay this type of marble if it is displayed outside here are the parameters you need to display them. You know this is materials or climate control and if they're inside here's again what are the kind of the framework for that so you know I think those are things we've been thinking about you know the next few months would be good to get going to help with this process and you know they really do need to be visible for that to happen so right now you know that we that can't happen at all and so yeah. I don't think the beauty of it being visible there is that I know there's been a lot of talk about the interpretive process and beginning to make a. And we have a public history program here at UMass we have the history department we have my department, the Du Bois department of Afro American Studies, the ability to, if not, you know, take a small group of students down there to see them in person at least I can have some video I can you know go down and have something some photos that I can present to the architecture students to the Afro American Studies students to the history department public history students that they can then begin to to make this a project whereby they can do some of the research that can go towards an interpretive document or interpretive Histo walls and panels that might be a part of the display at some point but when they're still created in a ruckston facility we can do nothing we cannot we can really do nothing. We don't know that the condition of them we don't know what we're dealing with to be able to look at them live or at the very least some video of these that have been created up too long now 15 higher than many years this this gives us an ability to marshal our five college resources to begin to make this a learning a teaching and learning process, but as long as they're created up in the in a shack in a shed. We can't do anything. Why does the Jan go ahead and make the mission. Mission send a letter written by Jane Walt. I think you froze again. Oh God, you just heard the make a letter from Jane wall. That sounds good enough. The purpose of the letter is to move them from ruckston to the bank center. Private control facility, not necessarily bank to a climate control facility to be uncrated to be viewed to be evaluated and an immediate and a plan made to immediate display. So that was your motion that sounded really good. I didn't mean to usurp. I don't know why I'm going in and out. I'm just trying to merge your thoughts, Jen. No, that's good. And the letter should be addressed to the town manager's office town manager. Okay, I just want that in the motion so that it's clear what the letters destination is. Is there a second. Sorry. I'll second it. So, I can't see everyone on the screen right now. So I'll do a, I guess I'll do a roll call just to take the vote. Pat. In favor. Eddie. I'm in favor. Yes. Robin. Yes, I apologize. I can't get my camera to work. That's okay. Jane. I'm in favor. Thank you. And I am too. So a unanimous unanimous vote. Great. Go ahead and do that letter. Okay, so just for clarification for the minutes. Because Jan started making the motion, but then. I think the motion. You could say. Together. Okay. I'm like, I had. I had it at first I had Jan, but then when Pat finished it, I changed it to Pat. So I just want to make sure. It was a joint motion. It was a joint motion. Joint motion. Okay. I will fix that. Thank you. Thanks. May I ask a question? Yes, please. The bank center is a climate controlled. Yes, it is. Yes. And I think, and I spoke to. I did speak to. The director. Mary Beth. And she also is agreeing that that's the perfect room for it to be in. So, and, and I think that is the best place for them where people can actually go see. Yeah, but we don't want to write the letter saying specifically banks, because if for some reason somebody in. Authority decides that's not the best and they have another one, then our letter would become irrelevant. If we just say climate controlled. That's the most likely place right now, but at least then if they find somewhere else, as long as it is climate controlled, we're still in favor. Yeah. I think we could say that. I think we could say as part of the discussion, we mentioned that the bank center is a preferable location. Sure. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, that can be in as a secondary thing, but it not in the. Because I'm just thinking if, you know, you're writing and saying that they see we actually have somewhere that's agreeable that we've seen. Then it won't be going through a long process. Yeah. I agree. Yeah. I think it makes sense to spell that out. Yeah.  My dad started this 20 years ago and, and I would like to be around to see it happen.  Like I said, if we have a place and let them know, it's agreeable, we've seen it. It's big.  It's perfect for them to be there big enough for people to come and look at them. And it's just a matter of moving them. I don't see the problem. Okay. Thank you. Can I just make a one comment? It's Robin here. Oh, I just, I just wanted to contribute. That it seemed like down the line. The library seemed like a, a some sort of natural. A partner. So I don't know what we can talk more about what that means later. But the other thought that I just had popping into my mind was whether in the context of library or historical society. Whether you could so, so that it doesn't necessarily have to wait for all of them to find a permanent holiday. If there could be a temporary display of one of them to give the community a sense of their presence. So just throwing that out there. Yeah. But they would all have to be looked at and uncreated all of them. Yeah, absolutely. I want to go ahead. We could sort of simultaneously send a letter to the. Library trustees explaining what we're doing. You know, to. To get it on their radar again.  Moved uncreated, inspected. And the condition assessed. Just to sort of crime them for hearing from us again. Yeah. I so move. I don't know whether Amilka would like to comment on this, but there would also be some justification for. Displaying the tablets on campus. Given the history of UMass in.  In parallel, as it were. You know, there's. There's a, there would, there could be a case given what you were saying earlier about the public history program. It would be an interesting idea. I used to teach in a public history program at UNH. And I've also worked on a. Marvel outdoor Marvel. Monument. And. I think one of the other things that is really important for us is to, to really think about who this conservator might be. Because. Looking after this kind of object, you know, it's something that is going to happen over time. You know, there might be an initial treatment and then there might be some kind of maintenance that. Happens every other year, depending on how they're. Displayed and, and. I would love to see. The university play a role in that even, even earlier on in terms of even thinking of them as a. Place for a location. There are already memorials. I know this is a. Hot topic, but they're already other kinds of. Places of memory, places of. Places of commemorative. Display on campus. So. Just a thought. Do they need to be on town property? Is that the issue with. You mass isn't. Isn't the same as having them on Christian property. Yeah.  You know, I think for now, I mean, it's an idea. I wanted to say, I did a little research today. I did a little research. I did a little research. I did a little research on the planters in Massachusetts. And I. I posted a kind of this question to the. Planner lists serve and. About. My understanding is that a lot of these towns, cities and towns in Massachusetts have these civil war tablets. So, you know, we don't need to reinvent the wheel necessarily. So I was kind of curious what other towns had done. And with those. Kind of wild within like half an hour. So I was kind of curious about Massachusetts. And I guess actually. Most of them were indoors, kind of in like town hall. Like meeting rooms. I looked at Westford Groton, Harvard. Canton and Sturbridge were all indoors. And I can send along these pictures, but I did. I don't know what the address was. I think it was a little bit of a pimpin on their old town hall, which is now currently like a. Artists. Studio, I think flywheel art squad that is there. There's a civil war tablet that's this way. Outside. And I'll follow up with them, but the planter there said they. Have to like re redo the lettering every, you know, every year. So, or every other year or something. within that, but at the very least, that's what he said. But I think it's interesting that like, at least of the 10 or so that responded to me, you know, all the one where indoors, and, you know, that's probably due to the maintenance and issues with climate control. But I think I would encourage people to, I'll keep looking into it, but if you know people in other towns or know people who work for other towns or do public history in other towns, like this isn't, we're not the only town to have to figure out what to do at the Civil War tablet. So it would be nice to kind of look into what other people have done and how they thought this through. Yeah, essentially, I did some research too and I saw a number of articles in the last five years of communities facing the same problem with marble monuments or things outside, saying, oh, the lettering's being worn away or the marble's getting old, but there's a few communities throughout New England, but then I couldn't find the solution. So I found an article in the paper where they went to the council or the select board and said, you know, we need to raise some money. But then if I did more research online, I never found out if they ever did it.  But yeah, I did a lot of different searching online. I couldn't find a good example of restoration of tablets. So, you know, there's monuments, you know, statuary or other things and that's been done, but the tablet piece is harder for me to find a good example of. So it's easy to find restoration of different other monuments, but not something that's similar that we have. So, I'll keep looking. These are, seem to me, very close to the kinds of shapes and material that you see on freezes around buildings. And so many of those things are probably still attached to the building on which they were first, which for which they were first made. And I think it puts me in the mind of the Parthenon marbles, which I've watched very, very closely for 30 years in what they needed to do with them. You know, they're in the British Museum, but then there's copies in Greece and they've been fighting for years over it. But when I went to Athens last time, they have their copies and they have a few of the originals left in their new museum and they've done a really nice job of putting them up a little bit, not as high they originally to be seen from 40 feet. They're not doing that now. But they're not in boxes or cases or anything in front of them. They're just in a climate controlled space on these very strong pins that stick out from the wall.  They can't be reached for people to touch them and get like hand oil and things on them, but they're still quite visible. And it's a very simple kind of display that doesn't hurt anything below it. So if you have a meeting room that's large enough, you can put them up on the wall high and still have chairs and other furniture below, but they'd be perfectly visible, especially if you light them in an appropriate way. So I think there's a lot of places, what's library? I don't think we have any places in town hall that are high enough, but there are other buildings that have large rooms, you know, outside it's just so complicated because marble gets so pitted by rain and air pollution and everything else. I just don't think we should even consider outside for marble. I'm just wondering, did we want to revisit, there was a motion or a meeting made to write a letter to the library and...  Second. Oh, second. All right. All right, any further discussion? Wait, can we, the motion to write a letter to the library went so fast, I couldn't get it written down. So motion made by Jan to write a letter to the library about storing the tablets, is that what we're saying? No, Jane was talking about reminding the library to keep it, or reminding them that we want them to start thinking again as they design the new library renovation that we might be coming back to them with a specific proposal and we just want to get it on their radar again. And so she was talking about that and I just said I so move with the other one. So it's too, you can just say there was a motion that the historical commission send a letter to the library trustees to let them know that we would like to start talking to them again about possible display of the Civil War tablets. How's that? You do realize how heavy these are. Yeah. Yeah. They're 600 to 800 pounds. Yeah, and that's why it could be wise for them to think about that in their architecture and the structural supports that they need for the building. Or is usually a pre-existing? I don't think it's not impossible to have an outside structure like them inserted like in a wall type thing. You know, to be if they're in like plexiglass, seal van, something like that. But that's something that again, we're putting the cart before the horse. We have to. You know, we really have to see what condition these are in. And for somebody, the library is not always open. People can, not everybody goes in there and goes to look. If it's in a structure like an arch-shaped type of wall that you can see from behind in front and they're inserted with plexiglass, whatever that will protect them from the elements, it seems to me a better idea. Well, let's get them moved first and evaluate them. And in the meantime, we can put the word out that we're looking for a space. I personally think that they should be indoors only because of the fragile nature of marble and that it indoors in what would be considered a permanent place. But that remains to be seen. Right. Yeah. I'm so happy to take that as this effort moves forward. But I want to thank Debra and Dr. Shaboss for coming to talk with us tonight. I feel like this is a good step forward and appreciate the work you've done on it and your commitment to this whole idea. Okay, Ducky. Well, thank you. Thank you for your time. Thank you for your time on this. Yeah, thanks. Thank you. Thank you. So shall we now go to the discussion of the bylaw for preservation of historic structures? It's nice to have that new title. I just want to, because I put that we made a motion, do we need to do a roll call vote on that motion? Well, I did. Oh, I'm sorry. No, I second. Okay. Yeah, let's go ahead and do that roll call. And I'm just going to go in the order of people on my screen. So, Robin. I'm in favor. Heady. That looked like a yes. Jan. Yes. Pat. Yes. Jane. Yes. And I vote yes also. Thank you. Sorry for that oversight. Jane, if you're tired of writing all these letters, I'm happy to help. Thank you. You know, this is good though. I'm glad it'll be good to get the letters out there and then get the conversation started again. I think it's been a while. Yeah, it has, yeah. But Nate, in terms of getting a mover, will that be a process that gets extended or is that something that can happen quickly once this gets underway? I think it can happen pretty quickly. It depends on the price. You know, if it's under 10,000, we can just contract directly with someone. If it's over 10, then they have to seek three quotes.  And then, you know, we just have to get an estimate from them. So, it's not. It'll be under 10. Yeah. I know, it's one of those things. It's just, you know, but it's a little bit of a process, not bad. Okay, that's good to know. Yeah. Thank you. Yeah, actually, that's a good, Ben, let's make a note of that. I think we should just, you know, follow the BPW and get actually and work on a quote for that. Okay. Yeah, Jeremy has been bugging me about that too, so. Okay. All right. So going to the bylaw last time at our last meeting, we were digging deep into definitions and we need any other attention to definitions for especially for things like building versus structure or alteration, significant alteration. I don't think we, I don't think we quite finished up what demolition specifically with me. And do you want to share your screen? I could start my share and then you could share. Oh, whoops, what happened there? I think I just hijacked the screen. Yeah, I clicked on something else too. So my Zoom window disappeared, but I'm back. Yeah. For the definitions, I, yeah, basically, I wasn't at the last meeting and then I watched it on YouTube after the fact. And then kind of. That must have been fun. It was fun. It was very exciting.  And then I was like realized I was watching and recording, but it's okay, I think. What did you want to tell us, Ben? Just that you guys were doing a great job. I don't remember at this point. I think there were probably comments I had made that I couldn't clarify or something like that, but yeah, I wanted to, I think this was a change that I did based on the comments from the meeting, basically taking away the significant alteration definition altogether and just adding that to demolition. So then there's only this one thing that's referred to as the act of this bylaw, which is demolition. And demolition can encompass these two things. And I don't know if there's any words missing that needs to be done. I literally just copied and pasted into significant alterations definition, put it in here. I think that's what we discussed. You know, I pressured the commission to see if they wanted to keep the significant alteration and folding it into the demolition. I agree, I like the idea that there's no, that's what it is, it's not something else. And that we agreed on that. Can I make a comment? I sent, I replied to an email of Ben's and then I think it came from the last meeting. Just because I, after the last meeting, there was a lot of discussion around porches and windows and architectural details. And I was actually searching for a definition of preferably preserved, but I found in both in the demolition to like guidebook and then in Newton's preservation by law, that they had been incredibly specific about certain architectural details. And I just, I don't necessarily think that we have to talk about it or consider it today, but if people wanted to look at that, I just thought it was really interesting. It's really long.  So if you had a historically significant porch, you know, it would be named specifically. I'm not doing a very good job explaining this, but like, I mean, in the, in the demo July guidebook, I think it's something to consider but like, I mean, in the demo July guidebook, they say, if you feel that your commission needs a clearer sense of what constitutes demolition, develop a policy and cooperation with your building inspector, but then they give this little example that says, the following is considered demolition according to the historical commission, removal of a full roof, removal of one or more exterior walls, removal of more than 25% of the square footage of the building. So I would just ask maybe that I can circulate that bylaw and just have people look at it and see if there are any particular areas that could be added into the bylaw. If there's anything in particular that we're concerned about that might fall out of whatever definition we're landing on. Does that make sense? Yeah, and I think, thanks, Rob. And I think the, you know, when Rob the building commission was here last meeting, he seemed pretty comfortable with these definitions of how they could be interpreted. So, you know, my thought is the, we have, we'll have exemptions, which I like. So people will know what clearly is exempt. And then, you know, the planning department and the inspection services is now, you know, we've been together now for a few years. So, you know, as this would move along, you know, we could shop it around to Rob and inspectors again and see if there's any questions about these definitions. But typically when someone applies now, you know, the default is to ask Rob or myself or, you know, now Ben, if they should submit, you know, someone submits a building permit application, for instance, staff is pretty knowledgeable now about telling them they need a demolition application. So I don't, you know, I don't think it gets lost, but if we want to define it further, we could. So I think that's, you know, good. If we want to send it around. Okay. I'll send it around and people can look at it and see what they think. Yeah. I mean, Rob seemed pretty comfortable with the 25%. He seemed like he could, he could work with that. But I, yeah. The question about those certain elements are interesting. But I think part B now kind of captures those. So, you know, someone might not be taking down 25% or more of a building, but they're changing or modifying an architectural element like a porch. So that captures it. I mean, that's the sense, right? That's, that's my understanding of why we did that. Okay. Yeah. I actually like this A and B because I think it captures the elements that we can make an interpretation about depending upon each individual building that comes before the commission without having to be so specific about roof porch windows. It's, it's elements to find the historic integrity of the design is pretty straightforward in my opinion. Yeah. I tend to agree. I hope so. I think when we began thinking about a bylaw revision, I think one of the, and this may, as Nate, you've indicated this may have changed over the last few years since planning and inspection that come together. But I thought that Rob was looking for more direction, but if he's, you know, if he's comfortable with it, then that's good. Yeah.  I mean, I think it's so good to look at what Newton did and, you know, consider it. But for now, I think, I think, yeah, I thought he seemed this, I talked after I thought this seemed, he's was good with this. Okay. Yes, I think, I think today I was going to focus more on the procedure. Is that correct, Nate? If we could go back up, if you just go to the top end, just quickly, I just want to see. Yeah, I think. Yeah. So the purpose, I thought, yeah, we, we worked that just a little bit, but I think that captures it. Definitions, and we're only defining a building now, which I think one, one thing I want to just say was originally there was like an eligible building definition in here. And I ended up getting cut just to simplify things, which makes sense. But I think down here, no demolition purchase for an eligible building. So by, I think there's more criteria for what's an eligible building besides just the 50 years or older. For example, like, I'm not sure, I thought we were going to like exclude structure buildings that are in the local historic district because those would be subject historic district review. And maybe there's other things, but I think by having that eligible building, language in there, then as we want to make changes to how we define an eligible building, we can just change the definition of here rather than meaning to spell it out. Kind of like as we do here, I think. Okay, I'm not quite following the last part then about here versus here. You're moving around so fast on the page. I can't tell what you're going to do. I mean, we thought that the really the single threshold is 50 years or older. So we weren't going to try to do a street address list or anything else. It was the 50 years or older. So the sentence reads now, no demolition permit or a building 50 years or older shall be issued without following the provisions of the spy law. So I think if we define an eligible building, people don't know what eligible building means. They don't know what eligible is. So I think- Yeah, we just put the definition right in the sentence and then we don't need it. It's fine. But I'm just saying like, what about a building that's not 50 years or older? For example, the Frank Lloyd Wright House or something or a building that's in the historic district that wouldn't be subject to this review. We haven't really talked about, I think- I thought that was in the exceptions. No? Also, I don't think we should exclude buildings that are in a local historic registered district or a local historic district. Yeah, and talk about that. I thought that came up with the Chris Kelly's discussion, but yeah, my apologies. Well, we mentioned it, but we hadn't discussed it in the last dialogue, so. I think if we start here on section 13.3 and just, do we like where this, how this starts? It's just says no building permit or demolition permit should be issued for a building 50 years or older without falling the provisions of this bylaw. So that's the trigger right there. And if we wanna have anything else- What is this line that's been crossed out about if it's unknown age? We wanna worry about that? Interesting. Yeah, so that was in the MHC guidebook like their sample demolition delay bylaws. And so what they had said is, it's like if you just don't know how old the building is, just assume it's older than 50 years. So the reason I had included that when I tried to do a mishmash of all of this stuff is because it feels like we really wanna err on the side of caution with a lot of these things. And so while it might be kind of frustrating to have to get an application for something that isn't necessarily 50 years old, if we don't know, then I feel like we're at least giving it an extra consideration. So I guess that was why it was in there originally, if that helps. Yeah. I think it's fine to keep it. Probably in the sense to keep it, yeah. So I guess I'll just say that the assessor's database, it's unfortunate, but over the years has been a few major updates. So sometimes it lists a lot of buildings that are being built in 1966, like a default year, I don't know why, but there's other years too. So if we have something like this and someone's not sure, then they have to, yeah. Okay, then we have that application contents. So the address, the owner's name, description of the building, reason for requesting a permit, brief description of the proposed reuse, reconstruction or replacement, and photographs of the building. Or photographs, it's an oven, it should say or. Oh yeah.  The application also asks for who's going to do the demolition in a timeline. That's right, yeah. Yeah, so I think what's happening now is our demolition permit is also then used as the building permit. So we do ask for the contractor's license and our utility sign-offs as best this information or hazardous material, which I don't think is necessary for the commission review, but I do think the contractor timeline for demolition is important. So. I think that's currently on the application. It is, but yeah. I would add it here as one of the buttons. And I would also say, shall file with the building commissioner a complete application containing the following information so that if it's incomplete, it can be sent back before it ever gets near us. So maybe up here, like an applicant proposing to demolish a building subject to the skyline, shall file a complete application. Yes. It comes down below after that. Yeah, wait, no, no. Well, you can do it there. Then take an application out after commissioner if you're going to do it. Yeah. Okay, and what was that? Period out after replacement, you've got too many periods. It's only on the very last item that you'll have a period. Was there additional item you wanted to add into the bullet list? Contractor information or timeline for removal. It could be two separate elements. Yep. We're putting it on the spot, Ben. This was tough for me last time. And just a popcorn so I can go to see him. timeline for demolition and contractor information. And license number. Did you say that? Right, that should be there too. Yeah, I mean, isn't a lot of this is spelled out in the application itself, right? Nate, like that they need to do like workers come and stuff like that or... But I think if we have it here then, my thought is at least these aren't, the license number is pretty specific, but I think the rest of it is, it's guide lock. If we say it here, then it has to be in the application as opposed to some administrative decision later. So what we're saying is this is the foundation for an application and the staff wants to, ask for an email address or some other things, but at least has to include these points. So we might want to add the email owner's name, address, telephone number and email. Yeah, we're gonna get that kind of information in there. If we say seven days, if we go back up to the definitions, Ben, we just, we define days or we have calendar days, business day. So to me then instead of saying seven days, we should say seven business days. I mean, otherwise it's not, we don't need to define it. Where does it say seven days? Beginning in the next paragraph, Bill and Mr. Schell within seven business days. Over to you. Have we been like capitalizing defined words? Yes. Okay. Business. So you have to, yeah. Yeah. I support a copy of the complete, just to reiterate. I mean. All caps under complete. I will say that Rob is, he's instructed staff to turn back, send back applications that are incomplete. So sometimes other building commissioners or staff would rather work with an applicant and he says, contact them once if they don't follow up within a week or something, just mail it back to them. So he's comfortable doing that. Okay. Good. Demolition of over 25% of the structure. I would take out visible from the street. I agree with that. So hold on, I just want to. Wow. This is defining. This is. Yeah, I'm not sure what this is. This is defining demolition all over again. And if we're doing the two step process, I just want to see why, what we're trying to say here. It's kind of gets into like the eligible building and eligible kind of like, this is kind of like an eligible, some speaking to eligibility and the structure. And some of this is kind of eligibility of the demo, or how applicable the demolition is. I think this whole section needs to be rewritten. To match the definitions. Can you scroll down, Ben, just a little bit? We have exemptions. We don't have to look at them. I just want to see something. Yeah. Demolition for the application. Well, this kind of gets more into a procedure. What's that actually? But later on where we have criteria. I mean, could we say up in that section that the building commissioner that. I think we need to combine. If it meets the criteria, any of the criteria is spelled out in section. Or if it meets the definition of demolition and then you don't have to repeat it. Yeah. If the building commissioner. Or the condition is applied. A should be if the application, if the application for them above, or something like that.  You just say if the application meets the criteria, the definition of demolition. That's written above or as whatever. Meets the definition of demolition. Yeah. Meets the definition of not criteria definition. Yeah. As defined in this by law. Yeah. That's fine. Yeah. Great. Period. And then the rest of that needs. Yeah. Or keep the or. Okay. So. Okay. Yeah. So just to talk through this. So. The application then is submitted to the building commissioner is what we're saying. And the building commissioner has the first step to determine. That it's an actual. Demolition application. So. I mean, I think for me, it would almost be like the procedures we have below would be nice to have them. Consolidated. So first step is the application is submitted to the building commissioner. Yeah. If it's then, if it's. So then within seven days. And then the application is submitted to the building commissioner. So step two was then that the designee, which might be the chair of the commission and staff determine the building significance. So there's an administrative step there. It's not part of the public hearing. Once it's determined, it's a demolition. Step two is. Determined significance. Step three is hold a public hearing. To determine preferably pres. Preserved status. To determine whether it goes to the commission. Right. It's, it's, it's if we want to do it that way. I feel like the rest of this stuff is just, um, I almost think we can delete a lot of this, because this isn't procedure. This is more about. The process of procedure section should just. To me, clearly outline those steps. I think. We're adding, we're adding the administrative. Act of staff and a commission designate. To determine whether it goes to the commission. Right. So. So. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know about. Eligibility. Yeah. I think we delete all of it. Okay. Does some of this go in definite in the definitions area? No. You've got. You know. The complete application doesn't come to the commission or it's not. It comes to the commission. The commission. The commission. The commission. The commission. The commission. The commission commissioner and. The heart. Historical commission's designee determined. That one or more of the following conditions supply. Right. Right. So it's just. I didn't fully follow that. Right. It says that the copy of the complete application comes to the commission or its designee. That's not true. It comes if the building commissioner. Or the building commissioner and staff. Along with a historical commission designee determined that one or more of the following conditions apply. So one is a misademolition of application. And two would be that the structure is determined to be significant. Okay. But that first paragraph has to be changed. Sorry. Defining this file. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. The building commissioners. Or to copy the historical commission. If. Okay. Just take out or it's designee right there. We'll put it back in later. Okay. If the building commissioner. Or the building commissioner with staff and a historical commission designee. Determined. Okay. Okay. You're putting in too much. Okay. Can we just say the historical commission. Yeah. I wanted to say actually, um, sorry. In the, in the definition. Mission members. Can we get it finished before we forget? I mean, move around. So. Okay. Okay. Yeah, I was just going to say in the definition of historical commission up above. Um, it's, it currently says historical commission or it's designee. And I know it's a little confusing, but it allows us a little flexibility. Yeah, but these are two separate processes. Okay. Gotcha. Okay. And then, and then say it's determined not, not take the S off because then we have too possible. It becomes plural. And then it goes on. So this takes care of what Nate was saying, that there's. You know, two layers here, either the whole thing goes or. The building commissioner and the staff determine with the designee from the commission that it goes for. Nate, make sense from what you were asking. Yep. Yeah. For now, I want to make sure. I just want to make sure that when we get down to the, um, the final steps in the process of resigning. Okay. For here that Yeah. I think the rest of this, to me, would be deleted. Just it's redundant. And some of it's not what we're saying anymore. Okay. Maybe delete the, the end of. Yes. Yeah. All right. So. I would just say that. So it's going to go to the building commissioner and the historical commission does a knee. Determine that. The application meets the definition of demolition defined in the spy law. Right. You don't need a, you don't need anything. If there's only one, you don't need them. Yeah. I think you can just delete everything after determine. And then take out bullet point A and just turn that into one sentence. Yeah. Just back up. Okay. As it is now, this is saying the complete application goes to the commission. Only because it's a need for the definition of demolition. Right. But don't don't. We want a designee to review it for significance first before the complete application goes to the commission. I think what we're saying is that after determines in that paragraph above. Determines that the application meets the definition of demolition is defined in the bylaw. Period. Exactly. Okay. Because that includes in that. Definition includes the issue of significance. So I think it, it will become one sentence. Maybe I can just. Oh, yeah. That, that. Ends, ends that sentence up there. Yeah. Determines that. The application. Right. I promise that format. I understand. Okay. No, I'm, I'm a little. So this. Significance. That's. Is that in the definition of demolition? Can we scroll up to the definitions again? Yeah, I don't believe it is. Yeah. So I think. We may be. We may be a little hemmed in by the way that sentence begins. So we could. Keep going up and for a minute though, I'm just curious. The only thing in the state commission. All right. There is a definition for. Significant building. And that meets the criteria. How about the building found by the historical commission or its designate? Right. No apostrophe. I knew someone would call me on that. It was like it's 50, 50. I don't know. So if we go. Go back down to what we're trying to do with the building commission. I feel like we're a little bit trapped by the beginning of the sentence. And maybe it should be. Maybe we should flip it. If the building commissioner or the building commissioner and the historical commission doesn't need to determine that the application meets the definition of demolition. Of a significant building. And then it gets passed to the historical commission. Right. So, okay. So that's where, that's where I kind of was before. If we keep. If we keep this colon at the end, then we can just add. That's the building is found. To be significant. By the definition of demolition. And. And has been determined to be. Yes. Significant building. Yes. Then then it gets passed to the historical commission. Right. So, okay. So that's where that's where I kind of was before. If we keep. The definition of demolition. To be significant. By the definition. That's, that's what triggers it being the full thing. Submitted to the. So, but those aren't even one is that it meets the definition of demolition. And the other is that it's determined to be significant, but those aren't really. Either or. It's determined to be significant. If what has been done is demolition. So that's the definition of demolition. Right. Yeah. Yeah. So maybe it should. This is real. Yeah, it should be two steps here. First, it's, it's probably Rob is going to be the one who really understands the extent of the. Project and can determine, you know, if it meets the criteria of demolition. And then that, then he would submit it to. Or forward it to. The designee. Right. I think, right. So the first step should be within seven days, right? I mean, it could be like five. Business days or something to build the commissioner. Determines if the application meets the definition of demolition. Period. Yeah. Next step. Yeah. Yeah. So is it today's terrible commission? No. Yeah. So is that true? It only goes to the designee. Yeah. I think that's what we're saying. So with the two step process, it would be. You know, first the, I mean, if it meets demolition, then it goes on to. It could be, I mean, so I think that's something that commission needs to discuss. Is it. Is it. You know, a team of staff and one or two members of the commission. Is it a chair of the commission and staff? But the idea is that the. That it is no longer at the public hearing, whether or not the buildings determined to be significant. That's done administratively. Without a hearing. So that. We haven't stated that yet about. Whether it's significant. But the next step would be. Yeah. And maybe we don't need to do the whole procedure in this section, because we're still under the, oh, this is procedure for obtaining a permit. So, okay, maybe this is the section to do procedure. But I was just going to say it seems a little jumbled right now, because. Right now there's just. Kind of similar level of detail for procedure down here. I think, yeah, I think that's what we're going to do. I think the commission permit application. Would be moved up or deleted. But we're not. Okay. So if we go back up, would we say just within five business days. I mean, I don't, I don't think the building commissioner needs a week to determine if it's. Yeah. I mean, that's what actually kind of what it says here. Different section in the building commission or some noted by the application. That's separate. That's. Later. Okay. Do you think, do you think we said five, five business days? I think that's better. Yeah. Yeah. Then significance. Yeah. How do we do that? Separate section. Right. So. Okay. So that would be like 13. Or. Okay. It's a new paragraph in the same. Yeah. Do we say the. You know, at this point, I want to. To me, the historical commission design is somewhat ill-defined. I mean, do we say, do we leave it that way because it's the by-law and not to be generic, but. And who are we assuming now. Would review it for a significance. I mean, do you want to say. Staff in the historical commission design. I mean, is it, is it that's all we say staff. Is it always going to have a design here? Sometimes the staff does it without us, right? Well, that's the question. I mean, that's why we're writing all these details in here. So we don't have to be involved sometimes. Well, we're, didn't we talk about, um, Chris said something about some towns will have it where the, the like chair or someone else of the historical commission. In conjunction with staff will also take a quick look at it before they send it on to the full. And so that. Yeah, that's what we're saying, but I'm just wondering every time. Well, you know, it may be. Again, I'm going back into history of, of how we began talking about the by-law, but. At that time, uh, there was concern among members of the commission that they wanted a kind of, you know, sort of civilian. Um, you know, So I don't, uh, If we say historical commission doesn't need. Does that mean it is always be the chair? Yeah, it doesn't always have to be the chair. Kind of thing. It could be chair. It could be, it could be a member of the historical commission and staff. Or could not. My thought would be. Um, It doesn't need could even be a member of the public and not be staff or a member of the commission. So. For the next step, I think it could be historical. Commission doesn't need and staff and staff. And that way, you know, I. My only thought too would be at some point, what if, you know, the commission and staff disagree about how to determine significance or if there's, you know, At least now there may be. I mean, I don't know. I don't know. Well, I think also the idea was just straight streamline it so that not every application went to the whole commission. Initial, initial evaluation of. To what extent it met the demolition by law. Kind of a review process. Right. And if, and if there is the disagreement, I don't know. Yeah. Yeah. So I think the, that right now this should say there. Historical commission doesn't need town staff. We'll, or shall determine if a building is. You know, a significant building. Right. I mean, that's really all that's happening right now. Yeah. If the application concerns a significant building. Right. Right. As defined in this. By law. The application then. Yeah. And I think what Jane said is good if there's disagreement or. If it. Or something to that effect, then it. You know, then it proceeds to a hearing, right? If there is no, if there is no consensus or agreement, then it goes to. A hearing. If there is no consensus or agreement, then it goes to a hearing. Or criteria. In this by law, like you did before. Just keep using the same thing. So another. Purification. Do we want, I don't know, like, do we want there to. Be like. Yeah. I guess. Yeah. Three people as like historical commission. Staff so that. There can be. Like. Majority or if it's like two people and they disagree. I guess it just goes. I don't think you need to give a number here. Cause this is a long-term thing. We don't want. Thanks too much.  We're talking about business days. We've got five days already before it gets to this group. And then how much on this group. And then the commission. How many days do we have to get this thing. Through. Sorry. I think I changed it to like 45 business days before it comes to the. Within. For the commission because it seemed like. We were running into some weird situations where we couldn't meet. Fast enough to review some of the applications. Yeah. And I know Robin and I talked to him. We were like, we don't want. We don't want some of those to fall through the cracks on that. On that particular technicality. And so we switched it from 30 to 45. Days. To give us that extra little wiggle room without making it like an absurd way for the person who's. Applying. If that makes sense. Yeah. But I think if we can back it up though, let's. Let's see if we can actually do it in 45. So if. If Rob has five business days or the building commission has five business days. For that first step, then this next step with this. To determine significance, we should. Right. Have a time limit and then also say if there's disagreement, then it goes to a hearing, but. Jan to your point. I mean, we say seven. You know, what, right? How many business days? You know. My thought is. Well, on this step though, for instance, what if. I'll notice a complete application. What if. Staff or the commission wants to, you know, the commission's doesn't need wants to do more research on the structure.  I mean, you know, we're not getting together, right? You're just emailing this thing out.  If you're busy one day, you can do it in the next, or you've handed on to somebody else in the commission as the designate. Five business days is plenty. Sure. Yeah, I think we run the risk if we make it any longer than that, then. It's, it's easier to put off. Whereas I think, I mean, we want to keep the process moving forward so that. It's, it's clear content straight forward. But we also want to make sure that we're having time to do our due diligence. And so I feel like five business days seems perfectly appropriate. All right. So we've got 10 days. Yeah. I mean, if sensibly staff would know when an application comes in, you can start doing research then. So that, you know, you have a little more time than just the five. I can share that with the designate. And then I would, because this is all following one thing to another, I think we're going to put. Mission designate and town staff. Shall then within another five business days. So we, it's clear it's not the same ones. You know what I mean? Yeah. So before five, right? Another. Before five. No, no. Yeah, I got you. Stepping back from this just a bit. So this kind of funnel will probably eliminate. It don't need to come to the historical commission. So if we're sort of reducing the flow to the historical commission full. To public hearing. Then for those that do come through. 45 days seems to me like a. Like kind of that outer limit. What is reasonable and fair to. Private homeowners. Yeah. Yeah. So the planning board and zoning board, they have 65 days. Yeah. Yeah. So, so.  If we're saying 45 business days from the time of application. You know, the difficulty is then, you know, pulling the commission members, we need two and a half weeks to get a legal ad out or whatever it is. Shouldn't the 45 days start after. After it's gone through the building commissioner and it's, and then the historical commission design. Because if we're trying to do a public hearing, if we haven't even determined whether or not it fits the criteria for a public hearing to me. I mean, I think that 45 business days doesn't start until after that original 10 business days. Where everything is determined. Right. I like that. Yeah. But that's not allowing for the fact that somebody wants to do this and they've got a contractor sitting there waiting, you're now making it 55 business days. I think, I think if you need realistically, you need. Three weeks say to schedule a hearing. Three to four weeks. So I mean, you could say 20, 25 business days after this. So if you already had two weeks. And then you have another five weeks to hold the hearing. That's okay. Business days. Yeah. I don't think we need, I don't think we need 45 business days to hold the hearing. That's, that's nine, that's nine weeks. So are we. Okay. So are we back to. 45 business days for the total. For the whole process. What if we change it back to 30, 30 business days for the public hearing, but the 30 business days doesn't start until after that. So I think. The way I like this is written is it's a successive. Number of days and it's not confusing. So the way the bylaws right now, there's 35, there's 45, and then no one knows is that from the time of application, from what step. So I think if we write. You have five business days, the building commissioner has five business days. And there's five more business days to determine significance. And after that, there's X number of business days. And so it's just like, you follow the steps. And it's not from time of application. It's each step in the process. So we're not. Trying to actually figure out how many days that is. It's. You know, so if. Would you recommend 30 days after those first two steps then, Nate? Yeah, we can say what, what is that? That's, um, it's not. It's just like, yeah. Should it just be 30 days then. So like 10, 10 business days, but then 30 days after that business days, or it gets confusing. Do we say, do you say 20 business days? That's four weeks. We've had a meeting, and we needed a month to be able to pull another meeting together. So 20 business states gives us that. So I just want to work on this wording a little bit. A public hearing shall be held by the full commission, something? Yeah. They'll be held by the historical commission. Right? Within 20 business days. Yeah. 20 business days following the determination of significance. Yeah. And make it, it's passive, make it active. Yeah. Commission will hold a public hearing or buildings to be found significant. Within 20 business days. Yeah. For buildings found to be significant. But within 20 business days of the, you know, finding of six minutes or something. No, we'll just say then again, somewhere in here. I would put right there where you have your cursor after public hearing. That's where for buildings. Yeah. Yeah. Within a further 20 business days. Okay. What did I say up here with another. Okay. Period. That's it. Yeah. To determine. No. That's, that's it. Take the rest of that stuff out. Yeah. This is going to be such a great bylaw. It is. Yeah. Person won't go into effect. You and I are. Yeah. Just to clarify. We have to define what, what this public hearing is all about. It's determined whether the building should be. Preferably. That'll happen further down. No, go back up public hearing. I think is defined term. No, it doesn't. Oh, good to be hearing is go back down. Public hearing. So it's going to be public hearing. Is that this is an, this unless. You know. Yeah, that should just say public hearing. Yeah. And then capitalize it in the thing we just wrote. But we need to change. But we need to change the definition. No, we don't. Because we would already have. Right. Determined its significance. I think the public hearing of the commission held for the purpose of determining if. A significant building. Should be preferably preserved. Yeah. I just, I just don't want to box ourselves in. We might need a public hearing. No, no, no, that. No, put what Nate said, it covers, it'll cover everything eventually. Trust us. Except if there is a disagreement among the. Staff and doesn't need. Yeah. Part of the public hearing. Oh, I see what you mean. It won't have been. So that needs to be after historically significant building. It was determined. It's eligible. Building. That's not eligible. And then, then. What did we just say for the purpose of. Determining preservation. Whether a significant building should be preferably preserved. Okay. Okay. Significance. Shall be preferable. Yeah. And so that is a historically significant building cuts out. Yeah. Then jumped to in accordance. Yeah. So for wonky. For. Wonky word. Folks. Or whether. For the. Yeah, whether, whether. That was easy. I was always taught not to include the definition or the word you're defining in the definition. Yeah. When I was in elementary school. I was told to actually put it in. Yeah. Public hearing needs to be kept. Yeah. And then it shall. It's not shall be preferably preserved. It should be or. We'll, we'll be in that case. Yeah. Whether it should be. Yeah. Yeah, determine whether it. Yeah. We'll be in that case. We'll be in that case. We'll be in that case. We'll be in that case. We'll be in that case. We'll be in that case. We'll be in that case. I guess we don't need that. How about. Oh, we have some. Something here. No, yes, we do. Yeah. I would just take the rest of it out because. That's true. It's all in there. And then what about what you said, Jane, if there's a disagreement at making.  Should we say, or. If staff and historical commission designee cannot determine whether it is a significant building. Have not determined. Yeah. So there's a sec sort of a second question there about. Procedure. And that is. If we are. If we're comfortable. Determining significance and. If we're comfortable with that. Or if we think again, we have to do it as two steps. Why should that be public? If a designee and the staff can't decide, then it comes to commission, but it doesn't have to be public yet. It could just be a meeting. That's the question, but it does. It would then. Drag out the timeline. Yeah. So. Yeah. No, I think. Right. I think. No, I understand you're saying, but I agree. I think the public hearing. The commission. Should only be determined if it's perfectly preserved, right? That way there's no. That way that stays clear. And. The question is, then how does the commission determine if it's significant, right? Is that. Right. Is there a. Yeah. So I completely understand that. Is there a. Kind of a technical work around if we want to. Yeah, we could just say that if staff and the. A historical commission designee do not agree. Historical commission designates words. It stands. But I think, I think right now, just leave it to what it is. The public hearing is only held. To if a building is already found to be significant. And then the public hearing is really about whether it should be perfectly preserved. Yeah, but I'm thinking back down to what we were working on before we went back to the definitions.  So on there, we'd have to then write in a step. So the step would be that, that, that. The historical commission will hold the public hearing. Found to be significant within 20 business days, but there's a step in between there. Right. So if there's this agreement, the commission shall need. Right. We have to say with me, you know. Right. Right. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I think the decision as to the significance of the building. You know, I think this is so. Unlikely that. That. You know, calling a kind of urgent. Commission meeting. And sort of sticking to the timeline for a public hearing. I think that's perfectly acceptable. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Well, let's, we have to meet. You know, like. In person anymore, we can have it happen quickly with this kind of. Right. That we're using right now. Nate, what's your feeling about the legality of this continuing. Beyond the end of the COVID phases. I think what I've heard is that if, if the, if. The state, you know, we're allowed to do. Remote participation because of, you know, the executive orders and COVID, but it may be that after this, you know, this.  So. My thought is, you know, the, I agree if there's disagreement. But say we, if we keep it within the short timeframe, what if all of a sudden you can't get a form in person and you don't have a term to sign up against. Yeah. Yeah. Well, isn't there a provision. For. Emergency. For, yeah, for a member. Absence to phone in. I thought, I thought that was part of, I mean, sort of back in the town meeting days. Like I remember that for some committee participation, that was permitted. somebody can phone in. A remote participation is still allowed. Yes, so that would be. But the thought is that I think the way that worked pre-COVID was you still needed a quorum of the members. And the person calling in couldn't be the quorum getting member. You had to have a physical quorum. Oh, OK. Yeah, so I just, yeah. I mean, Jane, you also said it may be very rare. I mean, do we just not even mention this? Is this not even, is this getting too detailed? What if we just say that if there's a disagreement, then it automatically moves to a public hearing? Because we're not determining significance at the public hearing. We're only determining preferably preserved. Oh, sure. I'm just thinking like, yeah, OK, never mind. Could we say like the chair can determine? People will vote, and the majority wins. I mean, unless there's only two people and they're at loggerheads, it seems like maybe we could just say designee and town staff and say something about having an odd number of people or something, and then you don't have to worry about it, you know? I think by introducing the idea that if there was a difficulty in making a decision that the chair of the Historical Commission was vote would be the tiebreaker. I think that's a good solution. What if this designee is the chair? Yeah. Well, then that designee, then that stands. Then there are things. Or you could bring in the co-chair to be the tiebreaker. I mean, not the co-chair, the vice-chair. Would we say if there's disagreement, the second Historical Commission designee would be used or something be. Would be enlisted to move the decision. That's it. I mean, something along that line to me seems much simpler than holding a meeting. I mean, my question is if there is disagreement, that would imply that there is some uncertainty whether the building is significant and maybe it should just automatically trigger the public hearing for preferably preserved. I don't know if there's disagreement. The building shall be considered significant. Right. Like we did with the age. You don't know the age. We'll consider it. Actually, that's a good point. Solution. Yeah. Yeah. That's a breakthrough. Thank you. We talked through it. Yeah. That's an idea that you're thinking cap on. Here it is, 804, and you're still thinking. I'm impressed. I'm impressed at a grad school where I was. The building capital B shall be determined. To be significant. Well, no, the. Sorry, the application. The vice would say if there is disagreement. The application shall be forwarded. No, we have to call it significant. It will be determined to be a significant building or something. We have to say it's a significant building. Yeah. The building will be determined to be significant and forwarded to the next definition term, which is significant building. Right. Yeah, so determined to be a significant building. And we'll move to public hearing. Or the application will be determined to concern a significant building. So we'll have to say building twice. OK, that's good. Yeah. The application will be, go back to the word building. Take that out right there where your cursor is. Yeah, the application. Will be. Cool. Oh, like it is in the previous students, right? Yeah. That's because I said that part too. Getting mine. This is the Jen Mark part signature. I feel like we should. Procedures for savings and loans now. It's all starting to come back. I feel like Jan needs to have control of the editing for this. Whatever, you're driving me crazy.  Like poor Ben can't keep up with all the changes. Let me take a time check. Since it is 6 past 8, this is, I feel, tremendous breakthrough, this little section here. But how much longer do I feel like you can save? Before we do anything, Ben, could you hit save? Yeah, good idea. We'd have to go watch the Zoom meeting again. Yeah, exactly. I think we're getting on in the hours. I'd just like to preview the next section of the by-law just to see where we are. Yeah, OK, exemptions. I love it that I think these exemptions are great. Is this where they do we need to finish up procedures before introducing the exemptions? I guess that's the question. What would we say after we went back up after the public hearing are, I mean, I think that's kind of the end of it for now, right? I mean, this is this is the basic outline of how an application proceeds. Yeah, we don't need any of that below 20 days. We need to then, I'm wondering how we get from the public hearing then to the final disposition of things. So should exemptions be a sub category of this part of procedures? Would we say, sorry, just in this in this section, would we say one more sentence, something about like after if during a public hearing of buildings, significant buildings found to be properly preserved. And there's language below. We can pull up for that. Yeah, OK. Yeah, I've been done. All right. So we get all the way through procedures and then we have exemptions. OK. I scroll up a bit, scroll up one more. I just want to see how the bylaws structure to be. Oh, I'm sorry. Yeah, there's the table contents up here. Although I guess.  Yeah. So yeah. We don't have appointments and powers, do we? No. Oh, there it is. There's exemptions in there. I don't see it. So no exemptions is, I guess, a subheading. Yeah, 13.31. And we've got kind of a stray sentence there that we were adding to the first. Oh, good. The application meets the definition. I don't think we need that anymore. Yeah, because that's right up here. Yeah. That hope on the black building commissioner, all that. None of that's needed. Yeah. So I think from my perspective, it would be helpful for me to get a copy of the changes that we made and kind of read through them and make sure that they're consistent and then to kind of preview the exemptions. And we all have some idea of what changes we think should be made there, if any at another meeting. Right before we get to that, we need to do what Nate just suggested, which is the next, there's a paragraph return. And then we say, if at the public meeting, the building is determined to be preferably preserved. And then we fill in the wording from below about. Like a public herding, then. Yeah. Herding. It's determined to be preferably preserved. Oh, I'm just itching to do the typing. Yeah. Then there's language below about the demolition permit being granted or rejected. OK. So we'll just move that up. It's in this section. Yeah. There you go. And the public hearing procedure. This one? Yeah. Maybe that whole procedure needs to be moved up under the public hearing thing. It depends on what we have for our table of contents, which we can't see at this point. Because we're saying that within so many days, we notify the applicant. And then if we're writing this process, it would just follow there. Yeah, all of this should be part of that, because that's what you've started up there, right, is procedure. Yes. All of these A through F or whatever. OK. Yeah, this includes, like, NGL, 48. We're going to edit all this, because I think we want to get rid of the NGL references, right? Yeah, it needs to be edited, but we're just moving where it comes. I would say that after that paragraph that we wrote about holding a public hearing, we should say something like, for the purposes of a public hearing, colon, and then all of these letters, right? Right, and edit these accordingly. And then edit these next ones, yeah. So yeah, this all moves up above exemptions, yeah. But add in something to set up the way that we're going to place these there. Yeah, it's going to get really ugly and track changes. Yeah, but so above exemptions? Yes, not going to. Keep going, keep going back where we were writing. Yeah. Go, go, go. OK, where you started, if at a public hearing. Yeah. Just put instead, for the purposes of a public hearing, colon or something, and then all those things will happen and we'll rewrite them as we go shows where they're going to appear so we know our placement. Yeah, you know, that's a nice logical flow to that. So we're not jumping around within the sections of the bylaw. Right. To understand the flow. So this is really, yeah, it's a new scroll up end. What is the section called? This is called a procedure for obtaining a demolition permit. Yeah, so the public hearing to me is a subsection of the whole process. It's not its own section, so. Yeah, good. Yeah. OK, so it should be 3, 3, 3, it should be 3, 3, 1, right? Unless we've lost 1 and 2 in there. Yeah. I think we just restructured it. So it would be, well, and we might have deleted most of it. We actually probably actually deleted it. Probably some of these are 1 and 2. Yeah. Well, I think the, I feel like 3, 1 might have been all the bullet points we decided to just scrap and turn into one paragraph. So I think we're fine to just change that to 3, 1. Well, it's always out of back end later if we want to. Yeah, I was going to say, I feel like I'm less, it's more, it's probably more important at this point that we get all of our wording down and then we can make it look pretty later. Yeah. OK. What else? Is that, is that a good, I mean, instead of repediting this public hearing procedure from now, can we just let it rest there and come back to that? Yep. OK. David. Should we make a motion to take a break from working on the preservation bylaws? No, it just falls from meeting to meeting. OK, I'm like, I don't know if we need that. I don't know that we can close this out for today or? We continue the work on the bylaws at the next scheduled meeting. Yeah. Perfect. We need a motion. I think for the next meeting, we could talk about, Ben, we can clean this up and send it around. I think, consider what you think is a good public hearing procedure. So right now, we don't necessarily want to mention a zoning by a lot or 40A that's zoning, so we can write our own procedure. So if we think it should be two weeks, three weeks, four weeks, how we notify the owners, it could be pretty simple. And then exemptions, right? I think it'd be nice to go through those. I like the idea of having exemptions at the next time, but I think I like them because then it just clarifies a few things. So I don't know if we like what we're putting in here. Yeah, it'd be like 13.32 would then be exemptions to a public hearing. Right. Well, this is exemptions for even the building commissioner forwarding it to the designee if these alterations don't need the definition of demolition, right? Right, that's true. Is that what these are? Yes. Probably has to go back further up then. OK. I think it's a significant alterations to change to demolition. I think we would not, yeah. Yeah, it's going to have to go back up where the designee and the building commissioner are determining things against. Or we can just reference these list of exemptions. Yeah, something. Maybe they should go in definitions. Yeah. We'll play with it, Ben, and send us a relatively clean copy and then make a clear note where we haven't worked so we can. OK. We can give that part some thought for the next time. Yeah, exemptions are interesting. They're really it's like most of it is replacement with similar or like material. And it lists what all of that is. And so. Yeah, this was Rob's three simple exemptions. And it kind of just says, removal of the archetype order plays one of architectural features that replicates in the design detail of the exact material. So it kind of covers a lot of. Yeah, it might be better to do something like that. Yeah, I mean, it would be like we're saying, I mean, we're saying windows. And then we were really, it's really repetitive. And they were saying siding stairs, balcony. But we're saying with the same or similar material. So if there's a way to have that same or similar material and then maybe bullet point those elements, which would could be replaced, like the root. I think there's a different way to do this. But I would really love a copy of, well, I guess I can print something from this. But like Pat, I feel the need to kind of read something in a very old fashioned way. I'm not saying very much. I am listening. But I've only really been involved for about a year. And I'm still feeling my way in terms of the steps and the processes and what each bit resolves or reveals. So I really feel like I need some kind of time just to sort of read it rather than analyzing any more at this point. My brain is pretty, pretty mushy. It's, if you've got up at six, that's how things are. Yeah? I move we adjourn and I'll pour a glass of wine at our own. You mean we can't have a Zoom wine meeting? We could. But it can't be on a town site. So we'll have a site. So if that's serious, a motion to adjourn can't be debated. Although I know there is one member of the public here. And public comment is usually the last item on the agenda. So I just want to make sure we're not. Oh, OK. And then we have to determine our next meeting date, too. Right. So before accepting the motion, I'll open the meeting to public comment. So if there's any member of the public who wishes to comment, please do say so. I don't see any hands raised. OK, then. So entertaining the motion to adjourn. We have to do our next meeting date. Yeah, we need our next meeting date. OK, you want to go for a month? What's our regular schedule? Is it the third Wednesday? Yeah, and we're third Wednesday. Yeah, so that would be the 16th. Does that work in general? Hey, how does that work with the CPA applications? Is that cutting in too close to? No, they're not due until mid-October. So what I thought is if the commission meets on the 16th, we can discuss CPA proposals. And if we need to meet earlier in October just to finalize a CPA proposal, we could. But usually. But it'd be better if we met on the 23rd to give us a little more time about the CPA and maybe. No, I think we need to discuss it earlier. And then if we need to meet again. A truncated meeting just for CPA. OK, both James, will you be available then? Jane Shuffler, you have no idea, right? I mean, according to the doctor, they're not letting me out any time soon. So I'll probably be in the same room. OK. Jane Wald, what about you and yours? Yeah, that should be OK. So we'll say it's September 16th then at 6. We'll just. Yeah. Right. Great. And then we'll. Yeah, just just for everyone to know, we had a town hall update today. More than likely the Zoom will go through the year, the calendar year. So we're, you know, I don't anticipate in-person meetings through this calendar year. All right. Whether or not we like Zoom, that's just what we'll be doing. Well, is there a second? Well, that's helpful. I was going to say that's helpful because with Obed, I may not be able to make it back to Massachusetts until January. You got the time difference in your favor, too. I know it's still sunny here. Not that I have a good view, but it's still sunny. We can see what it is here because I'm outside. I know I can almost not see you anymore, Jane. The sun is going down earlier and earlier. OK, well, it was lovely seeing you. Is there a second? I second. Who moved? Who did the first move? I did, of course. I'm always the one who talks too much. All in favor? Aye. Any opposed? I'll call vote for an adjournment. No, I'm just relying on nobody to say anything when I say any opposed. Yeah. Any opposed? All right. Motion carried. We're adjourned. Have a good day. Bye. All right.