Hi, everyone. Welcome to another episode of Career Pathways Virtual Trailheads, and we're really excited about this episode. You can see we've got a full house, three panelists today. And so, three times as many as our normal number of guests. And again, my name is Jason Klein. I'm the director of P20 initiatives at Northern Illinois University, and we are excited to bring you three different people, all from the suburbs who are going to be talking about their careers. They're also all part of an organization called GCamp, and we may or may not cover that in this. And if not, you can look at the description here on YouTube or on the blog for more information about that. In the meantime, let's dive into introductions so we can get going. Chris, can I have you start by introducing yourself? Hi, Jason. My name is Chris Kaiser, and I work for Big Kaiser Precision Tooling here in Hoffman Estates, Illinois. And actually, I have relinquished my running of the company to an associate of mine that's been with us for 30 years or 31 years soon. And I'm an executive advisor now. Well, congratulations to you on that. That's a great success. Thank you. Paul. My name is Paul Remington. I am in a similar position to Chris. I work for a company called Dymasters, now it's called WA Dymasters, or Precision Metal Stamper and Automated Assembly Manufacturing Company. I originally purchased a company with another gentleman and sold off my interest a number of years ago, and I'm what you would consider semi-retired. So I perform IT safety. I'm the safety officer for the company today and do facilities management. But I also spend a fair amount of time as chairman of Golden Corridor Advanced Manufacturing Partnership GCamp. Awesome. Thank you. Hi, Jason. My name is Kathleen Burley. I'm the executive director for GCamp Golden Corridor Advanced Manufacturing Partnership. And I've been in this role for the past three and a half years or so. My past, bringing me here, I've sold cutting tools a long time ago, and then made my way through education on the school board locally here. So basically bringing manufacturing and education together. Awesome. That's great. Well, we definitely want to dive deep into manufacturing and into what jobs look like in manufacturing. So we want you guys to use your knowledge of across careers in thinking about answers. You can certainly give us examples for different roles in your companies or in other companies you've worked with or for as you think about answering questions. Because one of the things a lot of people don't know of is what the manufacturing industry looks like across Illinois. What kind of info? I'm going off script a little bit here, but let's start there. I'm realizing I want to provide that context to students who might not be watching this like in a metals class or in a welding class. I might have no idea of what goes on with regards to manufacturing in Illinois and certainly at a time when we hear so much about that related to economic policy across the US. What kind of information can you give us about the landscape of manufacturing in the state of Illinois right now? It's luckily increasing again. Manufacturing is coming back because it's kind of gone down last year due to the pandemic. But naturally with the new president wanting to bring in additional monies for infrastructure, I think that's a good place for the caterpillars of the world to be in. And then the ACT people as well in agriculture, building tractors and things like that. I think that is something that's going to help the state of Illinois. Unfortunately, we have lost many jobs to other states because of some of the policies that we've had in the past 30 some years. But manufacturing is still alive and well in Illinois and I think has a nice future to come down the road here in the next few years. And Jason, I think one of our biggest challenges is people. We feel very positive about the future. We just brought in a 350 ton press brand new with a feed and everything. We have another, I think three or four presses on order that we've been delivered in the next year and a half. So we're certainly very positive about manufacturing future. But I think our biggest threat. And the thing we need to deal with is to find the skilled people that will be able to operate and provide the tooling and maintain maintenance of the tooling for that equipment. Kathleen. Well, Jason, what I was going to mention also on top of needing those is manufacturing saves lives. Look what manufacturing has done throughout this, what we've gone through in this past year. How many of these manufacturers were able to turn on a dime and start bringing out the PPE that was necessary to save thousands and thousands of lives. That's exciting. And the other part of that and it wouldn't happen without being as robust. As it is, is the fact that manufacturing is it's tech. It's not it's not necessarily what our parents might think of as manufacturing manufacturing now is computerized computer programmers. Automation robotics, that's how they run, you know, gone are the days when you have one guy running one machine in a shop you've got one guy running three or four. They have lights out where they go home and through computer, they're able to monitor those machines. So, you know, I mean for students that are looking for an amazing career pathway computerized whether they're into computers whether in into hands on there's something for everybody. Those are those are really great points. Before we talk a little bit about different jobs. Well, actually, let's start there. What are some of the kinds of manufacturing jobs that you want to highlight, and then we'll talk about what work looks like in those jobs. And also what the work you've done looks like after that so let's go with this one more introductory question on what are the kinds of jobs and we heard a little bit about that from Kathleen but if you can think of just some specific examples and describe those to us. That would be great so we've we've got some anchors for the rest of the conversation. Well, machine operators definitely are lacking skilled machine operators that, you know, understand and can set up their machines and program themselves. The other thing that's needed to is programmers that program parts in CAD and then cam it for automatic conversion onto the CNC machine tools, very, very skilled and knowledgeable jobs that you don't necessarily have to go to college for that you can get training through, you know, from companies that you work for and or colleges, I mean, community colleges, I should say, and I think a lot of that has evolved in the last 10 years in this area that high schools as well as these community colleges has have equipped themselves again with newer and state of the art, state of the art equipment. Yeah, for us. And I think it's generally true. One of the critical nature, one of the critical positions that we have had to fill. We did it through an apprentice is automation technician. Anything in the maintenance area which applies literally from food processors to mechanical assembly to CNC whatever kind of company and manufacturing, even maintaining elevators whatever requires maintenance and automation type of skill. And for us more specifically we need to die makers, the average age of our tool might die makers in this country is is appalling. I'm one of those age people but we need young people in those positions. Same is true for people on the floor whether the fabrication, as Chris said machine operators quality control technicians and inspectors, as well as other business functions. And other companies are needed. What are what are some of those other business functions you're referring to could be logistics. It could be project management. Even accounting, we were in a position where we needed to hire an accounting person and had a very very difficult time filling that position. So they run the the other other other gamut of positions within a company. Although we're not looking right now for a sales engineer but one of the critical skills and positions within a company is on the sales and marketing side. Yeah, so you're highlighting a number of important things I mean across across industries and we heard that multiple times just now. We know, though, and I'm going to start with those last few positions. We know we're going to need project managers we know we're going to need logistics I mean, any of any anybody watching this who's ordered something online. So that's one example of logistics and how that goes from you ordering it to getting to your door. And, and oftentimes that one of the things that I haven't mentioned with the three of you is for 10 years I served as a, in a district information technology leadership role and, and certainly in the IT space. There is two ways of framing Amazon and neither of which has to do with selling all kinds of different products. There's an IT back end infrastructure company through Amazon Web Services. The other is as a logistics company which is of course how a company like UPS or FedEx has repositioned their offerings as more of an end to end logistics company, tend to be consumer B2B facing I mean not manufacturing but those are really, really important roles so I'm glad we're bringing up that full range of roles and you guys have just done an outstanding job of highlighting the different roles that are again common across manufacturing settings for different kinds of products that are manufactured so as you think about those, those manufacturing roles will shift back to those, and you can also speak to roles you've been in, what is the typical work day or work week look like in those jobs. Well I kind of love your gentleman answer this one. I think Kathleen should do it. She's been in and out of enough manufacturing companies. She can help us talk about it. Yes. No that is something definitely that's in your wheelhouse there Paul. I'm sorry. I got to bring that to you. Well it depends what people are doing but one of the things just from a very simple standpoint most most manufacturing companies, whether they're making chips or, or stamping something. The work day is is typically starts early. And I mean 545 six o'clock to 215 let's say is a normal normal work day, which allows people kind of some extra time after work. And as the what goes on during the day it's it's sometimes there are things that go exactly right but in most cases, there's something goes wrong. And so there's a lot of problem solving a material doesn't show up material doesn't run right. Somebody thought about this kind of packaging and doesn't work. There's a constant change of things that are required on a day to day basis. And all while you're doing that, you've got to be reporting what you're doing to the job because that's how companies know whether making money on the job or not making money on the job. And so you're typically then involved in continuous improvement 5s you know what do what can you do to improve this. So that isn't you're doing not to do the same thing you did yesterday. So things are moving through the plant faster you're using less inventory. So it's it's in team environment it's you're working with other people. So you're not all by yourself. But sometimes you're you're at a piece of equipment or several pieces of equipment. And you just got to got to react to what's going on so it's it's a it's a very fluid flexible environment. And I think one common thought out there is that manufacturing is pretty routine work where you're doing the same thing over and over again and Paul you've just, you've just put the kibosh on that thought and, and like most other jobs that we talked about in the 21st century, you've talked about that, whatever that continuous improvement process looks like from one company to another but, or, or type of field to another, but that there is a continuous improvement process you've talked about a very dynamic environment. And so I just want to call that out because I think that is really important. And when I think across all of the different career pathways virtual trailhead videos we've, we've done. I can't think of a single video we've done where the environment hasn't been dynamic, and that's something we certainly hear from teenagers and young people that are looking to work in dynamic environments because it will be more engaging work so I really appreciate you calling that out and highlighting that from manufacturing perspective. I might say that as you are the initial grunt. You do get given some very basic tasks, which might include sweeping the floor. It might include following and doing what somebody else has done, and may include so many watching over your shoulder so there's, there's a continuum that says when you start, you're given certain amount of responsibility and then it's added to that and as you added to that the more you more as expected of you. I think in our organization is very dynamic to because we're a little bit more sales oriented and customer oriented we have you know application engineers we have a marketing department we have, you know stocking shipping department inside sales customer IT oriented jobs that are taking place because we have to all automate further and further and do things a lot faster than we did it, you know, 20 30 years ago. So, by us, it starts at seven and it goes probably till 530 quarter to six that's when six o'clock when the last people leave, because you know we service our customers across the country from the East Coast to the West Coast so that's why we're open a little later perhaps most companies are because we have to supply parts and tooling to customers on the on the West Coast we also have to, you know, advise them how to run certain tooling on their machines and things like that that are very much application oriented so again in our organization there's three for different departments and they all have to work together for it to for us to make money. And, you know, the engineers have to cooperate with with marketing, coming out with new products how we're going to introduce it. How quickly is that going to take place when do we have it available. We have different suppliers we work with suppliers out of Europe out of Japan. So we were kind of connected throughout the world to a degree with product that we supply over here, but also many factor over here so we were here by us we kind of marry up all all those different products that that are made, like I said overseas and or in the States and sell it as a package to our to our customers. And that is very much intense and and can take up a day pretty quickly. Yeah, that's, that's really cool I appreciate you bringing up the globalization of that I mean, we're recording this what a couple weeks after the 400 meter long freighter got stuck across the Suez canal and so some of you may be watching this much later and may or may not remember that but it certainly highlighted that that week or 10 days of delays in the Suez canal. The importance of, of global trade and what that what that looks like for all of our lives. There's also I mean I was just listening to a podcast yesterday where they were talking about chip manufacture fabs being being built in the United States again to to have stuff geographically located around in the event of natural disasters geopolitics etc. And so there's a lot of reasons why we'll remain interconnected but we'll also need to have manufacturing functions here in Illinois in the United States etc. So I really appreciate that call out. Jason, Jason one thing that I was going to mention on that same note, just a, just a local story. We were out shopping for a sofa for my daughter who's moving. And we can't find one in the next three or four months, because there are people who have ordered sofas that have ordered furniture. Four and six months ago that are still waiting for it. So you look at the way our supply chain in this country is and how important it is to start for companies to think about that reshoring and bringing things back to this country. Yeah, I mean that's one important piece of it. It also speaks to the project management side for companies we there was this move over the last few decades to just in time, shipping and manufacturing and product development and balancing that so you don't have inventory sitting on the shelf unnecessarily, but also so that you have inventory available when people want to buy it then that's very, very challenging and talk about a space for for those that are interested in math and data. That's a big part of doing that kind of work and making those predictions, and there's certainly a number of companies working in artificial intelligence and machine learning space to help both consumer facing companies and manufacturers with making those decisions about what they need and when. So I really appreciate that couch example is a great example. But let's be honest, all that data on all that trying to predict could not have predicted what happened last year. For sure. Yeah, there will be exceptions to that right. And this totally example. Yeah, and it's funny how the supply chain disruption that that is going on or has been going on for the last couple months now, even more so than probably a year ago when we got sorry crappy. It's amazing that we have more issues in the last two months than we had six months ago. Right. Literally. I mean people here in the US. When you go back to like last summer, they're all buying washers and dryers and stuff for the housing because they couldn't go on vacation. But people who are still able to make some stuff and deliver it. But I guess those inventories all got drawn down to the last bit, and then, you know, Suez canal and we see it with, you know, flying product bringing containers over with product in it. There's not enough containers left at this present time to fill the need of what we have to have here in the States, because we did not we let everything, you know, 20 some years ago, go offshore, because it's cheaper and less expensive to manufacture somewhere in China. It's, it's, it's almost, you only realize it now what what has happened, and the automotive industry, which was the first one to move out is is getting it on the chin now because sensors and all sorts of parts are putting, you know, rows and rows of assembly line lines. And they can't assemble anything because they can't get all the right parts, because they're, they're stuck either on the Suez canal or, or in the supply chain somewhere. Well, and that's where the chip shortage is a huge piece of this because think about how many things we use in a daily basis now that have a microprocessor of some kind in them. And how many more things people have bought in the last year, partially because the pandemic and then the pandemic slowing down production with microchips and so yeah now we can't assemble pickup trucks because we don't have tiny little microchips. And that is a big part of the process and our students watching this certainly know because there was a new Xbox and new PlayStation that launched last fall in advance the holidays and you still can't get your hands on one easily because of the same chip shortage. It's affecting the manufacturer of trucks, most visibly and recently but all kinds of other products I mean I heard yesterday, the routers that that Comcast and AT&T use their 16 months behind on delivery, because of chip shortages so you want to keep your router at home working if you want the internet to be working so vacuum around it so it doesn't get too dusty for the moment and hopefully we won't lose our internet connections while we're having this conversation because of that. What, what would you say is one of the most surprising aspects of jobs in manufacturing for people who may not know as much about what's going on in manufacturing today. I think how technology has evolved in the manufacturing space with especially in metal cutting for us that it has to do not only with the machinery that's developed everything is going faster. It has to move faster it is automated it is, it just needs a skill set that I think a lot of our young people have with with the technology that they have learned in a, in a consumer environment to a degree, but that is more applicable now, even in our industry so I think that is something that it's going in that direction also with, you know, the other two guys mentioned it to automation. I mean, if you look at how many. I think last year was the first was the record year for robots sold in the US units sold in the US. So that alone, not only helps us kind of try to alleviate some of that skills shortage. But on the other hand, you need people young people that know technology digital technology to program them. And then as Paul brought up to maintain them. Right so we need. And then of course there's the third set the ones who designed them from the from the very beginning right so which is going to be more on the engineering side there but critical to the manufacturing process. So going forward, the companies have as much to learn from the young students coming out of high school coming out of college they have just as much to learn from them as they do from each other so that that cooperative that we do see in a lot of companies now, because they have, you know, our kids, my kids, they were born with this technology. And those of us that, well we aren't quite as young as our as we'd like. So we've learned them. So they're not ingrained in us. And I think that that can really help, because we have to be careful not to lose that tribal knowledge. That's at the higher end. So it's important for companies and for for students coming out to respect each other and learn to work together and get past some of those generational differences which we see in a lot of places. So let's let's go into that and thinking about and all three of you are in great positions you are the perfect people to help answer this question. What are the skills that are the most important skills for a high school student who who may not may or may not have exposure to manufacturing coursework in high school they might there's more and more high schools doing that. There's also many high schools in Illinois that just don't have access to providing that, either because the number of students or because they're not doing or whatever the case is. But what skills do you most want to see perspective new employees coming into the workplace with what are most important for your, for your companies or Kathleen that you're seeing across companies from soft skills soft skills are are difficult. Sometimes because as these children have grown up with technology, they've become completely immersed in technology, and they've lost a lot of that ability of what some of us would consider soft skills. Sure, being able to to talk to to people. And we know that it's always been difficult when you're younger to talk to an adult to look them in the eye, but trying it's things that leaving the phone at home or in the locker and it's, it's showing up on time showing early, taking pride in the way you look it doesn't mean you have to wear a three piece suit but make sure that the shirt doesn't have holes in it, you know, tuck it in or something. It's just those those little things and being respectful, because the way it goes is if you want someone to respect you, you have to respect them. And hopefully that goes around. So being respectful of people, and expecting that they will be respectful back, but listening, you know, God gave us two years in one month for a reason we got to listen twice as hard. So that would probably be at a high level, you know, there's other things we have an incredibly hard time finding students that can get us a working resume and and and other smaller skills like that. But, Paul, Chris, what do you guys see. I would sum it up as to go Chris star, our former and retired chairman said, in two words, attitude and attitude. You can have all the aptitude in the world but if you've got a chip on your shoulder. You have the right attitude which falls into the soft skills category. Forget it. It's just not going to happen. And that attitude shows up as Kathleen said in all those soft skills from an aptitude standpoint, people need to need to have technical skills in it. And today, more and more, it requires what we're doing right now. And that is to be on a zoom call or a teams meeting, or a go meets, and being able to facilitate that and operate in that kind of an environment. At the same time, you're learning Excel and word and outlook, or the equivalent for Google. And then there's the whole number of skills related to anything related operating equipment and everything. Again, that's those are all things that can be learned if you have the right attitude. I can't add to this. Those two guys just said it all. It's really, we can teach anybody that has the right attitude, aptitude and shows up on time and stays today. That's all I can say. We can give them a good career in this place and move have them have more mobility to learn. They just got to bring the right attitude and soft skills and they'll make their own way. The only other thing that I see with younger people sometimes, you know, it needs a certain amount of not everything happens right away. It takes time to evolve to learn.  You got to prove first what you have learned, how you've done it, how well you've done it, how well you work together with your cohorts in the company. And sometimes that sometimes the young people have a little bit of harder time that it doesn't go fast enough for them. The gratification isn't there. The instant gratification. And that's one thing that, you know, we, perhaps we don't do a good job at this either by telling them these are, these are what we're looking for. These are the steps that it's going to take. It's going to take this long for this to be accomplished. But then, you know, you have always, you have recessions, you have a pandemic, you know, things sometimes disrupt that development too. And you have to be understanding that it just doesn't always happen exactly the way you want. And you have to have a little patience. And that's just saying you have to walk before you can run. So we need to teach them to walk and from that they can learn to run. I think one of the things that we're faced with particularly manufacturing is that the entry level position may not be the highest pain, but the long term benefit of the kind of job kind of responsibility and the long term pay prospects are far surpass many of the retail kind of jobs. So the student, my student or young person might be looking at two things and one is paying more right now the other is paying less. But we would hope that they would look long term. And that's where parents can help. So what, and what are the job prospects right now would you say we've, we've touched on this a little bit going all the way back to the beginning of this conversation but across Illinois, regionally in Maryland or in other parts of the state, the Metro East area near St. Louis, obviously, here in the Quad Cities, important. And we know in Bloomington Normal we've got a brand new, well an old building but a brand new electric car company, making waves. What, what would you say is the job prospects for a young person related to manufacturing today. There are millions of positions open. When you talk the state of Illinois or talk throughout the country. It's a matter of fitting the skill with the job. There there's there's five million five million manufacturing jobs to be had right now across the country. Students have to look for them, and they have to be definitive about that I can't tell you how many students will will have and they'll ha, about an internship or an apprenticeship. Well I think maybe they have you have to be, you don't have to know at 1718 or 2122 what you want to be and do for the rest of life, your life unless maybe went to college and maybe. You don't need to know what you want to be for the rest of your life you just have to know what you want to be now. So if it's something that you want to try. You have to be definitive about that you have to go after it somewhat. People aren't get you know people people aren't chasing each other down for these manufacturers are out looking for students, but they want those students that we've talked about that will put themselves forward and try. They don't have to be perfect they just have to want to learn and, and as the gentleman have said have the right attitude. Well, and, and I would add in my experience both my own personal experience, and as well as when I think about hundreds thousands of former students success and a job will transfer to success and other jobs even if the skill sets are different because some of those things and it was the list you guys gave a few moments ago those will will come in that ability to listen and learn to be there, not only on time but early to stay to to do the work that needs to be done that maybe isn't the most glamorous part of the work that you understand is a critical piece for the organization of function, the work to get done, and to step up and do that work and do it well, whether it's sweeping the floor or unpacking boxes. Those can all be important things that really build in understanding what success in the workplace looks like, and then you'll take that, no matter where you go next, or if you stay, and you'll continue to build on that success. What are the things you've loved about your jobs. What will we love about our job. Not, not every day is the same as there's always different challenges that come unexpectedly that you could have not planned ahead. It's the, you know, working together with different departments and people and making connections through your associations that you belong to just your network of people that that you got to know through the years and if you stumble somewhere or have a problem that you can probably go and call and say hey, how would you deal with this or how have you solved this problem. Things like that is, it's just that the network that you have built over over time that that you can go back to that helps support support your efforts. But, you know, you have to give in order to receive to so it is both ways. It's it's constantly learning new things. And, and, and now in the position I'm in I'm, I afforded the opportunity to be able to also give back and that's why I so passionate about G camp. Um, I just love to give back, you know, and I love the look on a student's face when when he makes something, and he gets it, and I love it when a company gets a new intern, or they come to one of our events and they're shocked by what these students can do. So I love the whole connection aspect, helping companies, but helping students, and that's priceless. Last thing Kathleen kind of started us off with this. I'm not talking about the pandemic and PPE but how, how do your companies companies, you've worked for they work for now, or manufacturing more broadly. How do they make the world a better place have a positive impact on the world. The thing that we all touch or fly in or drive in has manufactured parts of it. And actually some of those are probably made here in Illinois. I mean, there, anything and everything that you deal with in in life has been manufactured. I don't realize that we don't know, or people don't know. But I think the other thing is, we teach people how to work together and get into a high stress environment like manufacturing is sometimes people might have different ethnic backgrounds. We've dealt with the pandemic and how careful we are with screening and social distancing and masks. How we recycle our metal. So all recycle our packaging. It's just, you know, the environment that we're in if you look at it today versus years and years ago. It's a clean environment. And again, you just look at all aspects of it. Like Chris said, the stuff we make. It's really exciting to see it in a in a in a lawnmower. I buy a lawnmower that that our parts are in. We are in snowmobiles in automobiles.  We make metal gazintas, they goes into something you may never see it. Nonetheless, it's not held together if we don't, or you can't make it run if we don't have our gazintas. Awesome. Kathleen, I'll just say that everything like Chris said everything that we touch everything that we drive in everything that we see and the food that we eat is manufactured. So, I'll just sum it up with manufacturing makes the world go round.  It's very interesting to hear you bounce off one another. Second of all, yeah, manufacturing is super important and we've seen certainly at this moment in time both the current governor of Illinois and the president of the United States talk a lot about what they want to do to support manufacturing and it, you know, it remains to be seen as always with governmental policies how that plays out but certainly it's important for our students to be aware that those conversations continue to happen and we'll have an impact on them one way or the other. And we really appreciate the advice that you gave, much of which will help our students regardless of the type of career that they find themselves in as we consider those essential skills or the soft skills that you have to have across career so this has been great. I want to thank each of you for taking the time to join us today. For students watching or teachers or others, if you have a suggestion for a career that you'd like to see highlighted someone who you think would make a great guess some questions you should ask. Connect with us on Twitter at P 20 P to zero network that's all one word at P 20 network and let us know. We've got more episodes coming out all the time and we're really super excited as we hit the spring of 2021 about what's happening in school districts and community colleges and universities around the state with regards to work related to the career pathways. And it's going to be an exciting next few years in Illinois and it's a it's a great time to be learning involved with that and we couldn't do it without partners like this on the business and industry side in our communities. So thank you to G camp and all the companies that are part of G camp and thank you to the three of you for joining us today. Thank you Jason. Thanks Jason.


This is Think Tech Hawaii. Community matters here. Okay, we're back. We're live. I'm Jay Fidel. This is still Think Tech on a given Monday. This is Life in the Law, one of our favorite programs, and today we're going to talk about the role of the United States attorney in everything, in our country, in our world. And the tagline for that is, representing the United States in all civil and criminal cases. There's a burden. When I was in the service, this Florence Nakakuni I'm talking to, she's a former United States attorney, and she's here to tell us about those things. When I was in the service doing court marshals, I would be asked to stand up and appear. And I would get up and say, this is something you did every day, I would get up and say, my name is Jay Fidel, and I represent the United States of America. It never failed to put a tingle down my spine every time I said that. Oh, absolutely. Yeah, yeah. How'd you get into that? Well, I was at the office for 32 years, the first 24 and a half as an assistant US attorney or an AUSA and the last seven and a half as the US attorney. And I got into it actually not planning to. In fact, my colleagues and fellow students at the law school will tell you that I was the absolute last person who would be doing litigation or criminal work of any kind. But when I was in Washington, DC, working for the Justice Department doing civil cases, there came a time when I wanted to come home. So I wrote to Dan Bent, the then US attorney, and he actually told me, I can't hire you. I need people who can pick up a criminal file and run with it, and you can't because you've never done a criminal case, you haven't done a trial, all of which is true. And I thought, OK, but he told me that he'd want to hire me in about 18 months. And I thought, right, but he did. So he waited for you to develop that experience. Well, not really, because I was at the Navy in the Navy Office of General Counsel's Office doing civil work, but he was building the office, so he needed more experienced people. And by waiting a year and a half or almost two years later, he had enough experienced people so he could pick up someone like me with zero criminal or trial experience. And it worked swell, didn't it? It did. I was lucky. You were born for it. So what does it take to be a United States attorney? I just need to ask you that. I keep thinking it's something around Elliott Ness. Oh, well, but it's more than just Elliott Ness, right? The US attorney has to, is in charge of all criminal cases in his or her jurisdiction, and also the civil cases in which the US is a party. But there's more to that, because it's a presidentially appointed position. And it's someone who is looked to by the community. So there are things that a US attorney should do and does, which is being in the community and working with the community to build bridges and to strengthen that bond between all of law enforcement and the community. Yeah, you know, to me, most people don't have much contact with you, United States attorney. And that's probably okay. That's good. It's okay. But you have to know what the US attorney is doing. Right. And you have to know how that relates to your life, even if indirect. So what should people think of when they think of the United States attorney?  I mean, what is the process? What is the daily grind that relates to me? Okay. So the vast majority of a US attorney's work is criminal. That's just how it is. So when I was a US attorney, roughly 80% of the resources of the officers were in criminal, the remainder in civil. And in the criminal work, you've got your cases referred from other federal agencies, sometimes state and locals. You wanted to make sure that once the case was assigned to an assistant US attorney to actually handle the case, that it was a coordinated and appropriate approach to how to get the case charged, if at all. Not every case that's referred to us gets charged. Because the United States attorney makes a decision as to whether to prosecute on a given case. Yes. This is very important and powerful. It is. And these cases are sometimes huge. We'll talk about some of them, high-profile cases that affect the security of the United States. This isn't burglary. This is other kinds of crimes, federal crimes in federal statutes. What kind of crimes are we talking about? Well, now that you mentioned the national security type cases, one case that went to trial while I was still a US attorney was the Gawadia case. So Noshiya Gawadia was a contractor to the federal government and he was charged with espionage. And Ken Sorensen of the office tried that case. It was a lengthy trial, several months, but justice was done. And Mr. Gawadia was sentenced to 30 years in prison. And most recently, Jay, he sued me, just me, not Ken Sorensen, because he didn't sign the letters.  Yes. And so I was represented by an assistant US attorney in Denver because Mr. Gawadia is in prison in Denver. And the case just got dismissed last week. What was the nature of that suit? What could that be for? Well, it's an admin, it's of an administrative nature, a condition. And you want to relieve from you because you were the United States attorney. Yes. You know, I was going to be in the jury of that case. Were you really? I don't know if I've told you that before, yeah. No, I didn't know that. I don't think you would have made it. Judge Helen Gilmour, right. Judge Helen Gilmour was a judge and the system in the federal courts, I'm sure you're exquisitely familiar with this, is you get a call the night before to say whether you should come down or not come down. And the case was continued. Otherwise, I would have been down there, at least in the pool and potentially on the jury, although I agree with you. When they realized that I was a lawyer and all this, and former Coast Guard prosecutor, they would not and judge in the Coast Guard. I don't think they would have let me stay. When I was looking forward, I didn't care how long it took. I wanted to do my duty on that one. Three months. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It was a remarkable case, too, because Ken Sarnson, the prosecutor, and you were the assigning U.S. attorney at the time? No, actually the case had been in the office for so long that the case was already assigned to Ken when I became U.S. attorney. But I was in the office when the case came in and it was one of these cases that took a long time to develop. Yes. The complexity and all of the classified information. And after the case was done, and Guadillo was his name, was convicted and sentenced and incarcerated in Colorado or whatever, the Department of Justice gave permission to Ken Sarnson to come in our think tech show. Yes. I know that. And if you guys are interested in hearing what he had to say about being a prosecutor in that case, it's on our think tech channel and it is a fabulous interview. It is. It was that case inside out and to this day, I think, and certainly throughout the time I was there, he would be asked by the FBI to speak to groups about how that case was investigated because it was very difficult to say the least, but very interesting, fascinating stuff.  That was an incredible case. Too bad I couldn't serve on that. But the whole notion there was this was espionage going on right here in Hawaii. Right. It was an espionage case. I mean, I don't know if you have a lot of espionage cases in the district of Hawaii U.S. Attorney's office, do you? Not a lot, but there is at least one pending right now that's been in the news. It hasn't been in the news lately. There's a gang and enlisted men and I believe it's espionage charges, but I haven't heard about it or seen anything about it in some months. So the idea is that the cases the U.S. Attorney takes on the criminal side are really different than the cases you hear about in the state court. They are national in interest and they are always federal statutes and may I say a high level of crime because these are federal crimes. Right. And if it's in federal court typically it's multi defendant, multi jurisdiction, meaning multi states are involved and frequently these days defendants of every stripe use technology. You'd be surprised. Sure. So do the law enforcement, but the bad guys use it also. Yeah. Sure. For example, I know the Secret Service does a credit card fraud investigation. They do that. And they would refer a case to the U.S. Attorney in order to chase somebody who was doing credit card fraud and certainly that's in national or international, certainly interstate commerce or international crime. So that must be very technical, hard to prove, involves all kinds of internet issues, what not. Gee, you know what I would say, just thinking about it with you today, Philip, I would say this is going to increase going forward. It's going to be more complex. Yes. Yes. And I think more people are reporting these things and unfortunately a lot of times agents can't do anything when they're told, look, somebody I know got a call from somebody and they sent $10,000 to this number. Oh, you know it's hard to do anything with that. But we encourage people to report it because after a while the law enforcement agents assigned to the case might see a pattern. Something might come up later. So that's important. But we're so connected to each other. And yes, you're right. We're seeing more of it and I think we're going to see more of it. In terms of connection, I would imagine that the Office of the United States Attorney here in Hawaii is in regular contact with the Department of Justice in Washington, with other U.S. attorneys elsewhere and for that matter with state law enforcement. Yes. Yes.  You're not isolated in any way. No, not at all. In fact, I would have to say that most of the criminal cases that the U.S. Attorney's Office does will almost invariably involve a state or local agency and most times that would be the police department in the county in which the crime occurred. So, Honolulu County, Oahu being the largest county in terms of population, most of the cases occur here. And so, most of those cases also involve the Honolulu Police Department. Yeah. So, you know, I have a million questions. We'll never finish on time. What about the juries? A jury in the federal system, you know, that you are arguing in front of as the prosecutor, it's different than a state jury. Or is it the same? It's different in the sense that the pool comes from the entire state. But always, of course, the majority, the vast majority of the people on your jury will be people from Honolulu or from Oahu, rather. And the people from the neighbor islands have to commute. You know, the court has to end at a certain time, say 4.30, 4.15 because they need to take a plane to go home. What would you say, there's camera one over there, what would you say to somebody who gets a notice asking him or her who appear as a juror in a federal case? Please appear and do your civic duty. There are very few things that the government asks you to do, and one of them is to serve as a jury if you're a citizen. Yeah. And I strongly encourage that.   That's not going to work. That's not going to work.  Or there's a cause. In my view, it's a more interesting possibility of a case anyway in the federal system. Yeah. Well, that's a system I'm most familiar with. Yeah. Yeah. We're going to take a short break. We'll come back and I'll talk about some of the civil practice in the United States Attorney's Office. And I also want to talk about how it's changed in this administration right now this year. Okay. We'll be right back with Flo Nakakuni. We have this crazy thing going on today. I was just walking by and all these DJs and producers are set up all around the city. I just walked by and I said, what's happening, guys? They told me they were making music. So we're doing it. We have so many questions from Florence Nakakuni, former United States Attorney for the District of Hawaii. So let's turn to civil for a minute. All right. You know, the thing is that in civil trials, the government doesn't necessarily appear in a lot of civil trials. Yes. Civil matters. Those disputes are with private citizens. But the United States Attorney represents the government, the federal government, and all agencies of the federal government. That opens all kinds of doors for issues relating to the claims or defenses of those agencies. How does it work? And what's the juxtaposition between the civil and criminal side of the practice? Okay, first, the juxtaposition is this. Most of our cases are criminal. And the rest are civil. And most of the cases that go to trial are the criminal cases. Very few civil cases go to trial, as you know. Sure. They get settled. Right. As in the state court. Right, exactly. But our civil cases are very important. And the civil cases that the office traditionally does would be those cases where we defend federal programs, if that's the appropriate thing to do, defend against unwarranted claims against the U.S. Treasury, but recommend payment of meritorious claims. And, of course, the bread and butter of what we do, which is to collect monies owed to the United States, whether it's the Internal Revenue Service, a student loan, or a SBA loan. Whether there's money involved, or I guess enforcement or rules that's not criminal. Correct. Non-criminal enforcement of rules. So, you know, this requires a certain amount of expertise, both the criminal side and, you know, in an unusual case, for example, why do you, why do you case this unusual? Right. Because, you know, technical things. But, you know, I wonder, do you have all the expertise right here on these shores, right here downtown in federal building? Or do you have to go somewhere else to get it? We can go somewhere else to get it. All the U.S. Attorney's offices are part of the Department of Justice. It's a huge department full of lawyers, more lawyers than anything else. And they're very good at getting information out, sharing information. There are a lot of databases online now for any attorney to go and look. And within the office, people are supervised pretty closely, especially in the beginning and certainly for the more significant cases, even the U.S. Attorney will want to get involved in what is going on so that there's no problem. And there is a lot of depth within the department. So I won't say that there's never a need to reinvent the wheel because Ken Sorenson surely didn't need to do that for that case. But in your certainly garden variety cases, even the more difficult ones, there are places and people that you can go to, or we can refer you to them. Yeah. So you have resources? Absolutely. Do you customarily put more than one lawyer on a given, you know, case or is it a kind of thing which you see in the state courts, you know, where the government is represented by just one person? Well, you know, the simplest garden variety, maybe drug cases, that might happen. But the trend for the past number of years has been to put at least two people on a case. And certainly if a case goes to trial, I always put two people on the case. It's just better that way. Yeah. It's always better than a practice. It's better quality of life, but it's also a better result than a quality of practice because you can bounce out that way. Right. So you are no longer the United States attorney. Boy, that must have been pretty spirited time for you to, oh, but I envy you that those years, you know, because you're really at the top of the legal pile when you do that. How did you feel about it while you were doing it? Loved it. You know, I felt I was doing something that was meaningful, public service. And I felt that I was doing that while being able to do the department of Justice's mandate, which was to do justice. And like you said earlier, while I was a U.S. attorney, I did not go to court to try cases, but as an AUSA, I went to court regularly and I was so proud to say Florence Nakakuni for the United States. Yeah. I like that. Nothing like that. Right. And you can't do that unless you do, in fact, represent the United States. Right. It doesn't work anyway. So you're not the U.S. attorney anymore. I know. I am. Well, I just got done last semester. Okay. Well, it's a good thing to do. And your career is different now. And, you know, at another time you would have been appointed again, right? It's political. You said before that there's a presidential decision. And doesn't that mean, honestly, doesn't that mean that if the president is appointing United States attorneys all over the country, it is a political decision. Oh, it certainly is. But, you know, when we're told to get out last March, the way it happened was sort of startling. But that was the he, the president has the absolute right to remove U.S. attorneys at will. So, you know, nobody can quibble with that. Does he appoint somebody new? He has not. But the attorney general has appointed Kenji Price as the U.S. attorney on an interim basis. So there's, it's a statutory appointment. Can't name you the statute right now. But it's good for 120 days or until the presidential appointee is named. And at this point, everybody believes and I believe that the nominee will be Kenji Price. He was at this table sitting in that chair. Shortly after he joined Carl Smith. Really? Yeah. No kidding. Yeah. But he can't be with Carl Smith anymore. Oh, no, he's not. He's a United States attorney. He certainly is. So, you know, how does it affect things when you have kind of an odd situation as we have in Washington right now and people are not being appointed on time? Is this happening in other districts too where there's sort of a gap in the appointment? This administration doesn't regularly fill gaps, for some reason. I haven't figured that out yet. How does that affect the quality of the office and justice? Well, you know, I can tell you that this grew around what the attorney general did was appointed, I believe, 15 or 17 interim U.S. attorneys. I have reason to believe that all of them, like Mr. Price, is expected to be the presidential nominee. Let's hold them up. I don't know. You let us down. But, I think there are things that an acting U.S. attorney cannot do because prior to Mr. Price being named, Eli Danocchi was the acting U.S. attorney because there's another statute that says when a U.S. attorney dies or resigns or is no longer capable of doing the work, the first assistant U.S. attorney becomes the acting. So that was the authority for Mr. Danocchi to be named acting. And he was acting for the past, what, nine months. But there are limitations on what someone who is acting can do. Someone who is interim, I believe, might have more authority. And so having someone there with that designated title, I think, brings more stability to an office. Sure. But it's not the kind of stability that you would prefer. You would want the full tilt if you put it. Of course. Right. And then the next three or four months. Yeah. Yeah.  What I'm getting at is in my day, which is ages ago, it was really the top to be a United States attorney. And Kenji Price had the experience, he was in the Eastern District of New York as a star U.S. attorney there.  If you are a U.S. attorney, it changes things. Mark Rectinwall is an assistant U.S. attorney. Oh, yes. And now CJ. I mean, there is a connection with the bench. But, you know, how does it change you and what is appealing about it and why do people want that job? You know, what is appealing about it is, given your position, you are the Chief Federal Law Enforcement Officer for your jurisdiction. And so, people look to you to set the tone for all kinds of things, relationships between law enforcement in the community and relationships between federal law enforcement and state and local law enforcement, which is really important these days. And also, just being in the community as a standard bearer for federal law enforcement, because, you know, I think what the U.S. attorney does in terms of conducting the office, the business of the office and administering justice here is something that the public looks to and then, based on that, they make decisions on what they think, you know, their perceptions of federal law enforcement and maybe law enforcement in general. There's a lot of discretion there. Yes, because the U.S. attorney is a person who decides whether or not a case gets charged. And that's way different than the state system because you are the Senior Federal Law Enforcement Officer in the district. Right. This is something. It is, in matters before this, in law enforcement matters before the state, you represent the district of Hawaii, the federal side. In matters, in law enforcement matters on the federal side, you represent Hawaii, the district of Hawaii and the interests of Hawaii and the issues that deal with us when you're before federal agencies or the Department of Justice in particular. So would you, would you advise a young graduate to try to make his way into the Department of Justice and what would you suggest for his career path or her career path? I would absolutely recommend that. It's a great career. And now, there's some offices, like the District of Hawaii, that historically has not hired people zero to one year out of law school because it's a pretty small office, right? There are larger offices where there's a revolving door of people who leave after five, six, seven years. I'm thinking of the Southern District of New York, probably Eastern District of New York, Los Angeles. Huge districts where there are a couple of hundred lawyers or more. And so it's easier to get into those bigger offices because there are more vacancies. And you get very good training. You get to meet others similarly situated, others hard at the same time as you. And for a young attorney, you'll be given a lot of responsibility and for someone of your relatively inexperienced time in life, you know, but you get to do a lot of things. And you're giving up to say, I represent the United States. Yes, yes. So is it a career if you don't become the United States Attorney for that district? I mean, can you have a full career that way also? Absolutely. In fact, that's how I thought my career would be. After a while, it was pretty clear that I was going to be there for a while. And many people have made the U.S. Attorney's Office a career and it's a great career because you're doing something that is good.  You do the right thing. Sometimes the right thing might be you dismiss a case or you don't bring a charge. So at the end of this administration, hoping, assuming for a moment, we get back to a Democratic administration at that time. And they called you and said, Florence, would you please go back? Would you resume the job? What would you say? I think you don't go back. You don't go back. You don't go back. So where do you go forward? Well, there are lots of things to do in this community. And we'll see what happens. I mean, there are so many things that are going to happen this year. And I'll have to decide where I want to put my energies. Yeah. But one thing is clear to me anyway is that maybe it was serendipitous, but you got that job. You held that job. You did well at that job. And it changed you. Even though, you know, but one thing I'll say, you're still a nice person, but, you know, that's not necessarily a test to the office. No. How did it change you? Well, it changed me this way. I realized that it was an important position and so that I had to do certain things. And I had to deal with different people in a consistent manner. And as U.S. attorney, you know, I always consider myself as having a number of constituencies, the people who work for you, the court, your so-called client agencies, the federal law enforcement agencies, the state and local agencies, the community at large, your fellow U.S. attorneys across the country and the Department of Justice. Two very different things. Yeah. Your colleagues and the department. Yeah. You could get to meet a lot of people that way. Oh, yes. It was a wonderful opportunity. And the thing I really like was letting other people know what the U.S. attorney's office did and showing up. You know, sometimes you just show up at these events and people appreciate that. Yeah, sure. It's a statement. You know, senior law enforcement official in the area and more than that, more than that, it's more than that in the sense that, you know, we talk about the relationship of the citizen and the government. And the federal government is the preemptive government. It's the one on top. And I mean, last time I looked. And really, my thought is that, you know, we should be searching for that connection, to make that connection better and better, to remain connected to the citizen and the government. And the U.S. attorney plays a major role in that connection. No, absolutely. In fact, I can tell you that when I was U.S. attorney, we're encouraged to go out into the community, community outreach, and just being part of the community. And we were told, look, it's not law enforcement and the community. You are law enforcement. You're part of the community. You have deep roots in your community. Every U.S. attorney does. Yeah. And so for us, when I was there, I worked very closely with the Honolulu Police Department, only because they're here on the island and they are the biggest state law enforcement agency here. And they're the ones that have a community policing component, officers who are assigned to do just that. And so, I worked a lot with them. But I have to tell you, Jay, the reason I was able to do that is because of something Steve Vom did almost 20 years ago. He got a federally-funded program called Weed and Seed here in Hawaii. So it's through that program, which has been around for almost 20 years now, that my predecessors and I, and I'm sure Mr. Price, have used as a vehicle to do our community outreach. Yeah. Because it's hard to do it just by yourself. So they're programs that emphasize crime prevention or personal safety issues. And they're events where these matters are discussed. And for example, just during the holidays, typically the U.S. attorney will get invited and attend a shop with a cop, shop with a capuna, that sort of thing, which is a nice thing to do that involves law enforcement. Yeah. At the same time though, I imagine now, in these days, post your service as U.S. attorney, when you read the paper about trials and federal crimes and cases, you see it differently.  You see it more clearly because you've been there. Right. So I'll go, okay, I think I know what's going to happen next. Right. Right. Well, thank you so much, Florence. It's great to have you down here. It's great to have this discussion with you. Hope you come back and talk to us maybe about some federal cases. Oh, that'd be great. Thanks, Jay. I enjoyed it. Thank you.


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