Welcome back to this NPTEL course on Supply Chain Digitization offered by IIM Mumbai, IIM Professor Swashpathan Arang. We are discussing about supply chain digitization and in this specifically we were focusing on digital infrastructures for supply chain. This is a continuation of the previous lecture where we spoke about ERP implementations in supply chain management and we had a broad overview of ERP implementation. Now in this specific lecture I will be focusing on two types of popular information systems that are more related to logistics management that is warehousing and logistics management namely these two are warehouse management system and transportation management system. So, in this specific discussion I will be covering the warehouse management system and the transportation management system with an overview firstly of the WMS and then we follow this up with the overview of the TMS and then we have a little bit summary on implementation aspects of WMS and TMS. Now, proceeding to understanding the WMS and TMS, when we speak about what exactly is a warehouse management system and a transportation management system as you can see over here they are actually a bit interrelated in nature, but slightly different but quite different in the kind of focus they have and the kinds of processes they look at. So, if I look at a warehouse management system, a warehouse management system is the information system that is designed for the activities and processes within a warehouse. So, it is related to all those processes and activities and managing those activities within the warehouse. So, as we already know from a variety of lectures that we have had up till now it is not necessary that you have a warehouse itself you could also be dealing with distribution centers or fulfillment centers or perhaps a sort center or as well. Now, these are different types of nodes within a supply chain right and at each of these nodes we have some kind of material that comes to that node and stays for a while before proceeding to the next stage. So, this could be a warehouse where you know the material comes and stays for a long period of time perhaps for a few months before it is actually moving to the next stage maybe in the form of pallets or maybe in the form of cartons or it could be a sort center or a cross dock for that matter where the items are going to come in and maybe within a span of 8 to 12 hours they are also going to leave the system. Now, in such cases how do we manage the processes and activities within the facility? This is very important for us to focus on if we are again looking at bringing in efficiencies within the warehousing facility which is the general nomenclature that I will be using for a WMS. Now, dependent upon the kind of processes and activities that we have the functionalities within a warehouse management system will also require to differ as well. And hence again just like we were speaking about ERP systems we can develop a warehouse management system in-house from scratch it is possible or we can look at procuring these solutions, but again the development cost the technical proficiency required for developing warehouse management systems might be quite complicated and hence it may be worth while looking at procuring solutions perhaps these solutions could also be open source solutions. A lot of work is actually happening on warehouse management systems in India, a lot of organizations in the logistics industry and manufacturing companies are seriously looking at understanding the role of WMS systems in their company or in their facilities because the infrastructure of all these facilities needs to be upgraded at a very fast rate if we really need to bring down the costs of logistics itself. So, like I said the role of ERP systems would be to help bring in efficiencies into the processes that we have and focus on value adding activities rather than non-value activities. So, in a warehouse one of the critical assets that we have is the inventory that is going to be sold or moved through the supply chain in some form or the other. So, we should not be wasting time on non-value adding activities within the warehouse and we should explore all possible opportunities for automating it, for planning it well and hence it is very crucial for integrating warehouse management systems into modern day warehousing systems that we have across the country. And you would see that this is a practice that is happening across the country in terms of how much infrastructure is being developed in terms of warehouses themselves, fulfillment centers across the country. A lot of companies are investing in real estate meant for development of warehouses and once they do that they would prefer to develop these warehouses in a more world-class manner and bringing the best kind of infrastructure over there. So, in a warehouse you have the technical infrastructure which is the kind of equipment that you use for storage for movement of products. And on the other hand you have the warehouse management systems which is the software aspect and application aspects of it which is the information system that is used to manage the activities. Now, since the warehouse management system is focused on products and inventory management. So, we are dealing with materials and materials management. So, this can actually be integrated with the enterprise resource planning software of the organization because usually we do not get WMS as an integrated part of ERP solutions. The reason for this is the kind of activities that actually take place in a warehouse are very different from typical business activities that take place in an organization right. There are some commonalities and some integrations that could be possible, but there are a variety of activities which take place in a warehouse and now this is similar in concept to that of manufacturing where the manufacturing activities that take place are very very different depending upon the type of product you have, depending upon the type of process that you are going to have and this is not necessarily going to be reflected in an ERP right. So, in an ERP typically we are looking at common activities of accounting finance, project management, so on and so forth which are common across organizations and will really cut across lines of products and different types of services. But in production in warehousing, there are activities and processes that are specific to the requirements of warehouse activities or manufacturing activities themselves. So, usually we see that ERP solutions are distinct from warehouse management systems solutions, but they can be offered by the same kind of you know the solution provider and integration can be carried out between them. So, usually it might be that it might be the case that you get an ERP solution and some modules of it and warehouse management system with a different kind of a module or solution that could be developed by the same company or by a different company which would then look at integrating that with your ERP as well. So, when we look at material requirements planning and production and assembly systems, these could be connected to the warehouse management system module as well, because a material which is going to be dispatched from let us say a factory or from a plant will need to be stored somewhere right. So, one of the places that it could come to is the warehouse or it could have supply of materials from a warehouse or a store and hence there is integration which is possible in terms of planning, in terms of monitoring and control that can happen between these two systems as well. And of course, we can have interaction between the warehouse management system and the transportation management system or TMS as we call it. Now what exactly is a transportation management system? Just like warehouse management system is focused on the warehousing aspects of the supply chain, a transportation management system focuses on the transportation processes related to material movement in this entire supply chain right or in some part of the supply chain may not be the entire supply chain. It could be implemented in some parts of the supply chain and some portions of the supply chain so to speak, but the warehouse management system would be specific to that particular warehouse activities only. Now just like the warehouse management system since the transportation management system is looking at aspects such as how much manpower is required for transportation, how much equipment is required and what are some of the terms related to commercials, commercial terms related to transportation and shipping for that matter. We have a lot of shipping terms that are going to be used especially when the product is moving across regions right. So, when there is regional transfer of product there will be lot of conditions and terms and conditions that need to be really managed for such that you are satisfying the regulatory requirements of that particular state or that particular country that you are supplying the materials to. So, here since it relates to invoicing and commercials and freight and all of that it can again be integrated with the ERP because in ERP we also have vendor management modules that need to be looked at and this can be integrated into the transportation management system as well. And since it is related to material movement which could be happening between let us say a factory and a WMS or between a WMS of between a factory and a warehouse or from a warehouse to another warehouse perhaps from one central warehouse to a regional warehouse or a distribution center. Then we can look at integrating the transportation management systems with the WMS systems as well. Now, just to give you an idea as to what the WMS would really look like in terms of the scope of activities what I have done here is I have picked up a very simple idea of what a warehouse could look like. So, this is the overview of a warehouse and you can see it is the top view of a warehouse and I will just spend a few minutes explaining this diagram to you. Now, what does this diagram represent? This is a diagram which is a very standard way of you know denoting or representing warehouses and storage systems. Let us say this is an entire warehouse facility this border that you see over here this represents the entire land which is dedicated to the warehouse facility right and there would be several things that could be present within this land one of them is the building itself of the warehouse. So, this is the top view as I am showing over here and these small square boxes that you see are representing the dimensions of the warehouse in terms of the you know the storage containers that it can hold. Let us say the storage containers that we are talking about or storage units that we are talking about are pallets right. So, each square is representing a pallet from the top ok. So, pallets can also be stacked up, but we are seeing this from the top view of the warehouse and you can see here I have highlighted some of these cells in different ways. So, these are all the pallet positions that we have on the floor. So, this is the number of pallet positions we have on the floor. So, this gives an idea as to how much area is available to us in the warehouse not the height and all, but the area part of it. And we can see over here that these positions are also shaded in different colors. The space which is shaded in gray it represents the area within the warehouse where no storage as such is dedicated to this, but you can move the items within this space. So, usually this movement area is called as aisle space and typically this aisle space exists between storage locations. So, this is the more accurate definition of where the aisle is going to be there, but I have denoted this also in gray which indicates that this is also space where movement can happen of the materials. And what kind of movement could that be? I might want to move items from the inbound to the storage and from storage to outbound right. So, which means we first need to understand what would be the activities which happen in a warehouse. In a typical warehouse usually you have the first activity is that of receiving. So, over here that is denoted by the inbound docks over here. So, in these inbound docks inbound materials come and they are received. Once we receive the items, so these light blue colors they are representing the pallets which have been received. Once these items have been received they have to be put away for storage and where is the storage in these positions. So, these orange and green and yellow boxes that you see represent the place where storage is possible, but we need to also see whether we can store over here or not. So, this is the area where storage can be carried out alright. And the second activity, third activity after put away is actually storing. So, the main activity of the warehouse over here is we have to store. And once we have stored we cannot keep storing the item forever. So, we also need to send out the item from this warehouse otherwise we are simply holding inventory and this is a lot of capital that is you know stuck within the supply chain that is not good. So, which means we need to dispatch the materials. So, for that we need to have a picking carried out which is the activity after storage has been completed the duration of storage picking and then it is sent for dispatch in outbound. So, this is the outbound area which is going to be present. Now, these areas over here which I called as inbound and outbound we call them as DOCS. This is a standard terminology that is used in warehousing, it is also used in any kind of ports which would be there and DOCS is the place where the unloading and loading activities actually happen into the facility or into the vessel or into the you know maybe the different kinds of vehicles that we have. So, that is what we call as a DOCS. So, these are the DOCS over here. As you can see we have two inbound DOCS that is two DOCS where we can have materials being you know accepted and received and we have one outbound DOCS over here it is not necessary that this has to be the design of everywhere house, but this is just a representation of what could be possible. And you can see here in terms of storage also we have different types of storage facilities which are available. We have a storage facility which is of this nature where we have back to back pallet positions which are available to us and stack one above the other on racks. And in parallel to this we have another set of racks over here and another set of racks over here. These type of storage positions are very different from these storage positions where you can observe that we have lesser amount of storage positions, but a lot of freedom of movement as well. So, this is also quite common in warehouses. You might have you will have a mix of different types of storage layouts which could also be present within the system. And this area over here which is the wide empty space this is the open area and in this open area we have to allow for different other activities that take place outside the warehouse. So, in this specific area I have I have shown just the movement of vehicles. So, this is the movement this is the vehicle which is moving out and this is the vehicle which is moving in. So, you can understand that this vehicle which is moving out has probably come from the outbound dock. It has got the materials from outbound dock and it is now exiting the warehouse facility. And this vehicle that is coming in should be targeting to reach one of these inbound docks right. So, you can understand from the movement of the vehicle as to where it is probably going to. So, this is an idea of what we look at in a warehouse. So, what is the role of WMS over here? The WMS actually gives you a picture something like this. It is very useful in showing you a picture something like this perhaps even more detail also which can be possible here I am only showing the top view, but it can also show you other dimensional views as well and more detailed information will also be possible. But the basic idea over here is it gives you the first and foremost requirement that we have from a WMS is some kind of real time visualization that is possible. We should be able to account for the inventory which is present within the system and also provide some kind of decision support for planning. Now, as you can see over here we can see that there are some orange boxes. These orange boxes indicate that these pallet positions in the vertical position also completely filled with inventory which means these are not free to store anything else right now. Similarly over here there is no free space which is available to store anything everything is full. Over here we can see that there is one place which is completely free that is an entire vertical column within that particular space is free and over here it is partially empty which means there is a good chance that the lowest rack the pallet position would be empty because that is from where we have retrieved the material it is possible that it is empty over there or few other pallet positions may be available there. Similarly this is completely empty these two pallet positions vertically as well and here we can see that few pallet positions would be available not many. So, this is at least the visualization we are getting from the WMS, but what more can we do over here is the question. So, looking at some of the functionalities that could be provided by a WMS one is suppose you wanted to decide that you have a certain kind of product mix that the warehouse has to handle. So, this is a decision support that we are looking for from a WMS where should I be allocating these kinds of SKUs. So, an SKU represents a stock keeping unit which may be related to the type of product perhaps it is a shampoo perhaps it is detergent powder of a certain size 200 ml 5 kg so on and so forth and it may be in cartons or pallets it depends right. Now, what would be some of the parameters that could be used for making these decisions? One of the parameters could be what is the speed of movement of the inventory we might want to look at positioning faster moving goods closer to the outbound stock. So, they quickly move out of the system and slower moving goods may be somewhere positioned over here. So, this is a decision support that the WMS can provide which it can tell you that where you should be allocating space for the inventory. So, in those spaces you might want to position the inventory every time it comes in right. Now, this could be an aggregate level decision making support that you have got, but in places but in facilities such as fulfillment centers and sort centers for that matter it could be possible that it is very difficult to judge where the storage locations have to be provided and sometimes this may be randomly allocated as well because the cost of finding that out may be very expensive. Another decision you know parameter that you could take as a lever would be whether the product is very large or very small and accordingly position it at the back or in the front of the warehouse. Now, another decision support we could be interested in knowing since we are relating this WMS to the activities carried out in the warehouse we need to figure out whether the receipt of goods is completed. So, the WMS should show you whether all the materials from this vehicle have finally, been unloaded and has the goods receipt note been generated. So, this has to be recorded in the WMS. Then we have information which could be obtained from the track and trace because once you are doing the unloading you would be scanning the products and once all the scanning is done you would have figured out that all the products have been unloaded all the items or the pallets have been unloaded and this kind of information could be generated by the WMS. So, this is where we see that there is an integration possibility between the WMS and the devices that we use as well. Then another question that we might be interested in knowing is the items have been received, but where should we locate them? We already know a broad location of where certain types of products should go to, but within that also where should I locate it? Let us say this particular item is supposed to be located here right. So, we have limited space and we can fill up this position over here as well as here, but which is more preferable to us? This is a decision support that we require to be carried out. Also what we may be interested in knowing is the sequence of items to be put away. For example, if I am looking at carrying multiple products together and I have multiple let us say pallets to be carried out to be carried out for put away. So, should I visit this first and then visit this or should I visit this first and then visit this and then come back to inbound in order to pick up the items. So, how do I sequence the put away activity itself would be a decision support that I seek from the WMS. Then suppose I am looking at outbound. If I want to look at dispatch, I have already received orders and based upon these orders I need to dispatch items from inventory, but what should be the sequence in which I dispatch. So, for this we need to generate what is called as a pick list, which is similar to what we do in put away. In a pick list we want the sequence of items to be picked and accordingly we will need to also allocate pickers or that who are personnel who can help you with picking the items as well as equipment which can be used for picking the items and put in that sequence. So, that list is used for executing the activity of a picking. So, the WMS should provide you that kind of support. Otherwise you would need to manually figure this out on a regular basis and it might be very inefficient to do that. Now, once you have figured out all of this, one of the things we may be interested in knowing is fair enough we are doing all of these activities of receiving put away storage, picking, staging and you know also generating a variety of documents from all of this as well as doing the dispatch of materials. But we may also be interested in knowing how productive or how is my warehouse performing. If I need to report the warehouse performance what am I going to report. So, for this may be some daily productivity metrics of the warehouse would be required which can be measured at let us say the facility level that is what is the total throughput that we are having from this warehouse on a regular basis. How many what is the kind of empty positions that we are having that is what is the utilization level that we are having in the warehouse. What kind of utilization level is happening let us say at a zone. So, this could be a zone what is the utilization level here. What is the utilization of my equipment? How many you know how many pallets are being picked or how many items are being picked by the picker who is the person or who is the which could be the equipment itself. So, what is the productivity of these people all of this is required to be logged somewhere and you know represented. So, that we understand how well our warehouse is working. So, we would want to have that kind of information also coming from the WMS. Now, with that overview let us move to the TMS where we are talking about transportation management system. So, what I am going to do is I am going to connect the TMS to the WMS because I have mentioned earlier that there is an integration possibility. So, how can the TMS be connected to the warehouse. So, over here we were only speaking about what happens within the warehouse, but the material has to come from somewhere and go somewhere. So, one of the things we would be interested in knowing is which of these docks should be using. So, one question which could come to mind is how many docks should we be operating. So, depending upon the volume of business we might want some kind of decision support to tell us that we should operate only two docks today or we should operate only one dock today that is accept only inbound all of today or do only outbound all of today. So, that kind of decision support is something that we require on maybe a weekly or a daily basis even that the WMS should be able to support us in giving that plan. Suppose we want to know when the inbound dock will be available, then we have an idea as to what is the status of the inbound dock we know that the vehicle is over there and the amount of inventory which is being unloaded is also known to us. So, we should be able to estimate by when this particular dock will become free. So, that another vehicle can be assigned to this dock if possible. We might be interested in knowing when we should schedule the next dispatch basis the amount of time it is taking to pick the items and put the items together or there may be information which has been given to us from another facility which has requested that the dispatch has to be scheduled by 6 pm today. So, this is the information that should get reflected for the TMS as well such that we know when the vehicle should be sent out. So, this is going to come through the dock visually dock scheduling kind of functionality from the TMS this is at the facility itself. We might also be interested in knowing which docks should be allocated to which vehicle right. So, if I have two inbound docks should I allocate this particular vehicle to the first inbound dock or the second inbound dock. So, this is a question that we need to answer we need support over there. Another area where we could have the TMS implemented is in yard management. The yard refers to the space around this warehouse which is open to the elements and usually this space is used for parking vehicles and equipment. So, we would be interested in knowing questions answers to questions like where should we park the vehicles which are awaiting you know allocation to a dock right. Where should we park the equipment which is awaiting call for material handling and this equipment could be large equipment like cranes or something which cannot be stored within the premises of the warehouse. So, we need to have that kind of functionality available as well. And finally, coming to the connection of the TMS within the supply chain. So, this was connecting the TMS to the warehouse, but within the supply chain also we want to connect. So, let us look at this application. Here we are seeing that the TMS will extend beyond the specific facility. So, let us understand what could be those particular aspects in the supply chain. Let us say we have a factory and this factory is going to receive materials from a warehouse similar to this not the same warehouse, but something similar to this. It is receiving materials to carry out its process this could be a store from where it is receiving materials to carry out manufacturing. From there over a long distance the materials are actually traveling the finished goods are actually traveling and arriving at this particular warehouse. Then from this warehouse we have items being picked on a regular basis and sent out for dispatch to a specific area. Maybe this is a collection of several retail stores and delivery has to be made in these retail stores. So, for that particular day this is the kind of route which has been decided and then the vehicles have to return right. So, this could be the overall processes that are happening in transportation right. So, everywhere here we have some vehicle which is moving out. So, if this is the case then where does the TMS actually come in. So, one of the things that we would be interested in knowing is freight management where we require decision support in seeking the right mode of transport. Let us say this is a long distance journey a long hall as we call it. We may be interested in knowing whether we should take this large container movement or by road or container movement by sea. So, which of these should we choose which mode of transport should we choose. So, we should first of all understand what would be the cost of freight associated for this route for these modes of transport. We should also be able to understand whether we should be choosing one mode over the other or a mix of the modes. So, this kind of decision support is something that the TMS can provide. Then understanding or creating the necessary documentation for shipping and again as we can recall a lot of material is going to be perhaps shipped on a daily basis. So, this needs to be generated in an automated fashion quite often. So, we need that kind of support in terms of documentation creation. And suppose we want to understand at the warehouse how much material has to be unloaded how much material has to be or load has to be loaded onto a specific vehicle. Should we be having vehicle completely filled to full capacity which is what we call as full truck load completely utilizing the vehicle or should we be dispatching it in less than full truck load consignments is a decision support that we also seek where the transport management system can help us out. Another area where the transport management system can easily help us out is in creating vehicle routes. So, where can these vehicle routes actually come in. This is a very simple example that we can see should the this be the order of retail stores that the vehicles from this warehouse should actually visit and or should there be some other kind of route which should be there. We would like this planning again to be carried out in an automated fashion with a decision support system which the TMS can provide. Similarly, once the vehicle has moved through these points it is now empty it has delivered everything or maybe it is partially empty. So, what should happen to the vehicle over here where should it go should it come back to the warehouse or should it go to another location. So, this is what we call as the back hall journey that is returning back to the warehouse or perhaps going to some other place where another activity may be carried out. Now, if we look at this we can see how there are so many possibilities for integrating warehouse management systems and transportation management systems in the logistics of products movement as well as storage. But in a typical transportation management system we may just opt for the functionality of let us say just dock scheduling. That could be a functionality that is chosen because that would be perhaps of most importance to us perhaps vehicle routing is of more importance to us if we are interested in let us say doing last mile deliveries on a regular basis. So, depending upon the complexity we may choose different aspects of a TMS or a WMS for that matter. Now, again when we speak about the WMS and TMS implementations what we understand is the scale of business again just like in an ERP is going to determine what will be the modules implemented should we do it in house or should we procure it. The level of implementation you know within the organization of information systems within the organization and among the partner entities in WMS and TMS will determine how well it is going to succeed. So, questions that we need to ask is how will the WMS and TMS integrate with the ERP if this is not possible then what is the value add of all of this information and data that we have generated we have to be able to analyze it and present it and report it as well and account for it as well. So, if we cannot integrate then that is going to be a challenge. How well we can integrate the WMS of our facility with perhaps the TMS of our client or of our vendor. So, that is a question that we really need to think about. Similarly, we would be interested in knowing whether there is digital readiness among the people as it relates to certain specific activities in warehousing within transportation as well. Like I said earlier this kind of implementation is now ongoing in India to a large extent and it is getting ramped up quite a bit also thanks to the PM Gatishakti movement, but we see that digital readiness is something that is required for systems like this to succeed. How comfortable are people with devices with softwares and tools and computers is also quite important and the you know the typical traditional thought process that in a warehouse you will only have shop floor personnel who are completely unskilled in nature that thought process is not going to really help out they have to be trained in order to understand technology and not just the operational aspects as well. Then we have to also understand how well the TMS or the WMS is adapting to the business. Let us say today you have a product mix which is completely of just oil to be sold and this is let us say cooking oil to be sold and in the next week or so your product mix completely changes to cosmetics to be sold. So, let us say you are in the FMCG business and you are seeing that this product mix is really changing on a regular basis because of the nature of demand and the nature of patterns that we see. If this is the case can my WMS adapt to this kind of product mix changes because then the kind of locations and the pilot positions that are required may be very different when it comes to handing one product over the other. Similarly, there could be several demand variables which will require that only some storage positions are used and not everything else. So, how can the WMS adapt to this would be a good question to think about there could be changes in regulations with respect to taxation with respect to the pricing of products and everything. How well does the WMS and TMS consider these aspects when making decisions? There could be very complex routing requirements that need to be carried out and how well does the TMS actually adapt to all of this. This can really determine what extent to which we can scale up the business as well. If we can adapt quickly then we can also scale up quickly. So, finally, coming to the conclusion of this particular discussion we have seen what is meant by WMS and what is meant by a TMS and visually we have understood where the application potential actually lies for all of this and how well it can really automate processes and streamline processes within warehousing and within transportation. So, thank you very much for listening patiently to this lecture as well and see you soon again in another lecture. Thank you.


I think you gave me the high sign, Steve. Shall we get the meeting started? I'd like to start off with a call to order. Everybody's here that I can see. On pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America and to the republic for which it stands, one nation under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all. Are there any additions or corrections to last month's meeting? For the minutes. Hearing none, I'll entertain your second. All in favor say aye. Aye. Opposed? None. Minutes are approved as written. First thing we have is a variance application from Robert Butcher requesting to build a new eight foot deep covered porch and match the width and the house and a stairway from the porch to the front property line at 320 Ontario Avenue. You're up to bat there, you want to step up? We'll have the applicant go first and tell us how you've addressed what we were asking for. Then they could have an opportunity to speak and then you could certainly rebut. I think the one thing for the board's attention is that last meeting we had discussion on this matter and there was some concerns because there was a top view but not really a perspective. We don't really, it looks like we don't have a plan. We have a conceptual drawing that is actually different from the floor plan that he had previously submitted with regards to a dormer that doesn't appear to be show and four posts. So again, this is I guess a concept of a drawing so it's not a plan per se but it does give you an idea as to what Mr. Butcher's doing. So I think with that we can ask Mr. Butcher to speak and let us know basically some of the concerns and what he's after and which drawing is going to be correct in terms of the one we're supposed to be looking at. So I'm going to plan some pictures that we had some problems with emailing so I don't know if they're up yet or not. Can I have my architect here? Is the speaker on, Bob? Press the button. Nope, he's good. Yep, he should be. Can I have my architect speak on behalf? So this is the elevation that you're kind of wanting to go with is what's the source there? Yes, my architect will follow up with this. Give me one second, please, Don. Just give me one second. Was that attached now? Okay. Okay, does the architect have the drawings? What I have is the original floor plan that was submitted and then, well first of all, let me introduce myself. My name is William Rollins. I live at 910 North 4th Street. I was the founding architect of Aquatica Design. I used to work for Stubenrock. I'm now retired. Rob is a next door neighbor. He has a property next to me on 4th Street and I'm very much aware of the history of this house because it's right around the corner. The drawing that was done I don't see the date on this, but this plan drawing is from like a year and a half ago. It's a conceptual kind of what we were looking at. When Pat, who is a neighbor, two houses west of Rob complained that it was blocking her view, that this would potentially block her view. Rob and I then went out to the property. Excuse me, why is there a block of her view of what? She has a single window. And what is she getting blocked from looking at? Her view, a slimmer view of the lake. I have photos on my phone if you'd care for me to pass my phone. Sure. And I can show that to you. The unfortunate thing is that Rob actually, we went inside her house and met with her. And what we had done is literally staked out where the post would be and strung lines, showing roof line and everything else. And then went inside the house and talked to her. And she allowed us to take a photograph from the window. I sat down at a chair and looked out the window and there was a view. And even with the post for the proposed porch in the sketch, which this is the direction we're heading in, she still has that window of view. We, Rob actually took a photograph. When I sat down and I said to Rob, here sit in the chair, Pat's response was, I don't sit and look out the window. I drink my coffee in the morning and I stand staring out the window. And standing, I'm taller than her. I have the exact same view. So let me put my mask on and I can show each of you what we're talking about. I could just start on one on the ends with you, Tanner. Get two of us. That's your old competitor, Belinar, Richard Lindy. What's that? That's your old competitor, Richard Lindy. He's also an architect. Oh, really? Okay. I did aquatic centers, I eat special ed. If he proves someone, I'd say it's probably real good. That's the window. That's the only window. This is from the neighbor's porch right at the rail. This is what she has to look through for the neighbor's porch. And then the wooden stakes, they see back there are where the three posts are. Gotcha. The window, the other neighbor's porch goes up into the area of the water. And then the trees move in their six by six. Burn out. Kevin, if she doesn't like it, you can sell her off for her. And then sell her another one closing the way. What we've basically done is gotten rid of the concept of having a dormer. And what Rob is proposing is to match basically the porch roof that's in most of that neighborhood, which is a four to one pitch roof, which is the minimum you need to keep your warranty on shingles. And in fact, this drawing was taken from the sidewalk, looking directly at the house based on a photograph I took. And using the wire frame that we had designed in the post where we had placed them in that photograph that you all saw. And she's going to be able to see completely through and still have her little glimpse of blue. Now, just to note, this house originally had here a roofed, a framed roof facing the street entryway that had a bench on it so that people could go outside the door and sit and look at the lake. And that would have been blocking her view. Rob tore that down when he bought the house. And for 12 years, she's an enjoyed and uninterrupted view of not only that little sliver of blue, but all of the flag poles and the emergency signal that's there and the signage that always says rip current. That's what she's worried about not being able to see. Is that the one shown on the screen up top that you're speaking of? They're original. Yeah, that's it with the original. So on the left side of that is a small bench. On that, yep, right in that area would be a small bench. And that more likely blocked her view than what we're proposing. So with that, I'll rest. Thank you. Do you have any questions, Steve? No, I think if you want, we could hear from the neighbors and then if we wanna hear from there. You've already got an objection to either one of you guys. You got any questions at this point? If you wanna step up to the mic and voice your opinion. Again, my name is Bill Burton and I live on 4th. Have you logged in, Joe? I'm sorry? Have you logged in? Yes. Okay, good. I am. I'm Bill Burton and I live around the corner on 4th Street and I did speak at the last hearing and I stand by those concerns. If I may say so, I think it is extremely distasteful for somebody to minimize somebody's lake view and refer to it as a sliver and can only see this much. Lake view is very important however much it is or isn't. And she's lived in that house for 45 years. So I don't think she's going to move. And I do think that she's entitled to her lake view. And if the value of her property declines, mine declines right along with it, as I said last time. Furthermore, my understanding is that a zoning variance is to be granted with due deference to the board. My understanding is that a zoning variance is to be granted in the case of a hardship. And the only hardship I've heard is a person who wants to build something this big, which I'm not sure qualifies as a hardship. So I would like to hear that issue addressed as well. Thank you. My name is Nathan Eastway. I live at 312 Ontario Ave. If you look at Rob's house, I am the immediate neighbor towards the lake. I, my concern with Bill is that mine's not so much of a property value or a view, but if property values do decline, mine will in accord with that.  And in the mock-up that was done, how big were those posts that were installed? Just at the railing height, correct? Okay. Right, so the difference was a two by two versus a six by six. Again, to Bill's point about the view that someone does currently have of the lake. My biggest and only concern, my biggest and only concern is the precedence that this would set for a variance approval for people on our block that we immediately care about, but also in the Ellis Historic neighborhood. And that encroaching so far on the public right of way at Rob's house, unfortunately would therefore allow me, who is between Rob's house and the lake, I should be able to do the same and put add on to my porch, which is currently 14 feet away from the right of way. The house to the left of Rob's is 13 feet away from the right of way. They're looking at seven feet. If a variance is approved, I should be able to do the same into a porch addition. And then therefore the residence is at 308 Ontario at the corner of Ontario and Broden would therefore be allowed to do the same. My concern is only the precedence that would set. Thank you. What's the setback from the sidewalk? 25 feet. 25 feet from the sidewalk? Correct. From the property line. The property line is just inside the sidewalk, isn't it? Yes. None of the houses need that 25 foot setback in that area. The 25 foot setback. That's correct. So it's not gonna. Right. What he's talking about probably view that really isn't the public property from the 25 feet in. That's his property. Correct. Anything that's outside the public right away is private property. Okay. So 25 feet from the inside of the sidewalk to this house is 25 feet. That's totally. None of these houses meet the 25 foot setback from the property line. Those are not 25 foot setbacks on that old. No, that whole entire block. In fact, the house that is between Pat, who lodged the complaint about the impediment to her view, the porch that Rob is proposing is even with the same edge of that blue house. I don't know if it's possible to put the overhead back up. I think we just look at, no, of the an aerial view. Give me one second. Go back. Well, that's good. The floor of that porch is eight feet from the house that towards the street, right? That photo right there. And it is virtually equal to that blue house just sold for $300,000, I think. An investor bought that, it's turning it into an Airbnb. Yeah. Unfortunately, none of the houses on this section of street comply. However, every one of these houses, including the gentlemen's, have some sort of entryway or porch attached to them on that side of the street. Pat's house faces fourth street. That is her front porch on fourth street. Her complaint is this window. Her view is not impeded. I'm sorry, sir, but we've been inside, we've taken photographs, we've showed them to the council. The view is maintained. This, in terms of value, will add value to the house and thus to the property, thus to the neighbors in the surrounding area. Rob has a double wide parcel. It goes all the way back to the alley. Basically, I don't know if you know the Zürheide property, but it goes back basically to where Zürheide had put a pad to park his RV down in the alley and the carriage house. Rob has the potential to put a garage on that property. Just as the neighbor to his left did, which was a realtor here in town who recently sold it for 300,000. He had a two-way garage. He built it into the side. There's a small hill there. He built it into the side of the hill and also had a studio apartment. He rented the house and the studio apartment. That's all now going to be a B&B. Rob has no proposal for a garage. It has nothing in any way to block this gentleman's view and can only add value to the neighborhood. This is not a cheap porch. I'm redoing the porch on my house. Doing it myself and just the material alone is over $6,000. And it's not nearly as big as this in terms of overall length. So, again, the issue was impediment of view. There is no impediment of view. The question becomes like Rob's neighbor to the east has discussed precedent. Now, his house does stick out beyond Rob's with his current porch. There's sort of an enclosed entryway. Maybe some sort of medium accommodation could be reached, but if you move Rob's porch in, it now impedes the view of the woman who's complaining to houses to the west. As I showed you in the photographs where the wooden posts were, those posts would now be within that window of blue. So gentlemen, it's in your hands. Thank you. There's a neighbor would like to respond. Because this is an important issue for the president that had said, I looked up on the county GIS system yesterday and was able to find surveys of my property at 312, Rob's at 320, and the neighbor to the west at 328. And the setback distances from the edge of the right of way, I believe three feet past the outside extent of the curb.  The front of my house is 17 feet back. 320 Ontario, the front of the house is 15 feet back from the edge of the right of way. The proposed porch would be seven feet from the edge of the right of way. The house at 328 Ontario, the front of the house is 21 feet back and their porch, I measured it as eight feet, putting it 13 feet back from the right of way. So the front of their porch sticks closer to the right of way one foot further than mine. And let me do the math, seven feet back from the edge of the right of way is the proposed porch at 320. Again, it's precedence. I don't think that Rob or Pat or Bill would want me to put a porch on that close nor would I want someone my neighbor to the lake side where our view is and the money comes from for our property value to be able to put a porch that close either. I think it's gonna look great if it gets approved. I think it's a great profile. I'm concerned about the precedence that it sets. Thank you. You can make one comment real quick. It's real important for the board to know that as far as precedent, it keeps being mentioned, but each individual property regardless has the opportunity to come here. So as far as precedent, is there some comments in terms of what you're saying that are true? Yes, there are. At the same time, each individual application, any of these people can come in at any time to make the same request and we'd be hearing it. So it doesn't automatically suggest because one got it, that other should get it. I'm not saying it is or is not. The precedent is something to be concerned about and think about, but each one of these is its own individual case before the board. There's a gentleman wants to, neighbor wants to speak again. Up to the mic, please, sir. Yeah, we just got people online and stuff, so we just need you. Understood. How you doing? I'm asking the board, is there or is there not a requirement to show a hardship in order to request a variance? Yes. I might mention one thing here.  And I honestly don't think your value, your property is gonna go up or down if he puts this porch on that house because you're not buying a lake property to look at the lake. That's not Ontario Avenue isn't set up for that. What is it? Each one has a different set back there. Is that what I'm understanding? Every house and every neighborhood has a different set back. What we have... What's the uniform set back when these were built? These are built in like 1900. Yeah. 1890s, okay, thank you. So that's kind of the challenge that we're dealing with is like the gentleman to the east. I'm sorry, sir, I forgot your name. Nathan. Sorry about that. Go ahead. When you take a look at the other side of the road, you got people that have the front porches basically on top of the road and on top, right on the right way. That's across the street. Over here, you mentioned it's 14. I think Rob's property, it looks like the property line is approximately three feet behind the sidewalk. So we're a little bit behind the sidewalk. He's seven feet with the stairs and then eight feet from his house. So the porch itself would be eight feet from the property line. Obviously he has to build the stairs because if you take a look at all the homes there, from a grading perspective, it's just the stairs have to be built as part of this. So yeah, it's, you know, hardships, one of the things you have to take into account, the views, one of the things you have to take into account. I don't know, we haven't heard from Mr. Butcher. The house has been sitting for some time. I know there was some things with a court and different things like that. Is Mr. Butcher going to live there? When is this project going to get done? You know, those are all things we'd be interested in hearing as well. You know, just a little bit from yourself. Like you mentioned, we had some legal issues with the basement. That's all finished. And I don't think anyone's familiar with that. I don't know if you want to just mention, you know, what took place there. He just did, it was poor quality craftsmanship on that. So I had to take him to court for that.  And so there was a lot of work. Yes, there was a Cream City, there was a, they're not familiar. Okay, there was a Cream City brick basement underneath there. One wall fell down and I thought, okay, let's do the whole basement. So we lifted up the house, put a new brand new basement underneath it. Then ran into some legal issues, got some money back and now I can, I have enough time and money now to start and get it done. So what is your estimated time before getting completed here? Pardon? At this point, what are you estimating completion time? I want to get the, I want to get, well, currently I don't have a job right now. So that's going to be my main job is doing that. Get the porch done this year. How long ago did you buy that house, Bob? Pardon? How long ago did you buy that house? A long time ago. I'll say about 12 years ago, 15 years ago. And I have been paying the regular taxes on this that I haven't gone to the city or anything and said, because it's gutted out, there's no value to that. I've stayed with $3,000 a year for the, for tax assessments for that land. Being a realtor, I want to think that the big thing on your mind was that you had a room to put a garage back there. If the other properties don't have enough room in the backyard for a garage, you've got a problem. Right, at this time, I'm... Kevin, that's more important to a lot of people than of you looking out a window with that, for the lake that's a block and a half away, is you've got to look way across the land park all the way to the Sea to Lake. Yeah, I want to get this porch and I want to start, I want to get it done. So it's time is, I've been sitting on it for too long. I have time now, I have the money and it's time to get it done. What do you think, Huey? Are you agreeing with Kevin and I with the garage having the ability to put a garage up as far more important than the view out of the, because this isn't really Lake property here. I guess my question is the neighbors that have an issue with it, I guess what type of porch do you want him to put there? Because he's really matching the neighborhood based on the home's right, I mean, right next door, also across the street, and I guess upgrading the style of that property. I mean, he's not looking at a two-tiered deck, like there is right next door. I'm just, I guess I'm kind of surprised that by improving this property, all of the neighbors, their properties will be improved because this is probably the, really it is, the only eyesore that's there. So allowing him to do that and finish, no offense to, I'm sorry. No, no, I agree. I've had with the city painting and stuff like that, I want to get it done. Yeah, so I mean, currently at the situation right now, you're hurting the people around you because of the condition of that property. After I finish this house, this house should be probably valued at 350 to 400,000 after I finish. And that helps improve the property values of the people around you. I mean, you can tell they take a lot of pride and ownership in their homes and, you know, definitely on each side of you and across the street as well. Yes. You know, it's a nice little neighborhood right there and the property owners want that to stay. So I understand that as well.  You have to have some sort of lake access or be able to touch the water in some sort of way. So to me, I don't really fully understand why they wouldn't want you to do that improvement because it helps them. I agree. As well as the homes around it. So I'm a little confused on that. Thank you, Kelly. Sure. Step up to the stand and I'd love to hear your point of view. We all work for different companies, so we're not on the same page either. When a person buys a home, as we did, it has certain amenities. And a view of the lake is definitely an amenity whether or not it's on the lake. It's perhaps even more important if it's not on the lake, nothing's going to block your view of the lake if you're on the lake. If you're a couple of houses away from the lake, then another structure can block your view. And that's why when you buy your property, a few blocks away from the lake, excuse me, a few houses away from the lake, you expect the zoning to protect, to set parameters and to limit what somebody can put up in your way to impact the neighborhood. So again, it's a matter of being faithful to the zoning. And if there's a hardship here, we have yet to hear it. If you go back to the original photo that had that, that's what was there. If that gets built back, that blocks Pat's view. Those columns are now moved back in closer to the house and they are in direct line of that blue window that was created by this proposed porch. I own a house on 4th Street. I bought it and moved in in April of 2000. Has a huge bay window in the front. I could actually see from my house, the lake. And it was a, yes, it was a selling point. It was kind of nice to have. The neighbor across the street built a garage, had every right to do it. I didn't oppose it, didn't come into council and complain. Now I have a sliver of blue that I can see. And he has a garage. If you got a ladder, you can get on a roof and look at the lake. Well, that's why I was gonna come for a variance and ask if I can go up and have the two stories on the house. I'm coming back next week. But these things happen. And this porch would certainly be a vast improvement to not only this house, but to the neighborhood. Thank you. Thank you. Anybody else got any discussion on this? You wanna press it? Yeah. Hang on one second. Ed. Yeah, I'm not in the real estate business. I don't know how to be anyway, but as far as the aesthetic value, I think what's being proposed would add to the value of all the homes in the area. And to me, it would be a definite advantage to continue with rehab of what apparently was a home that was in Puerto Rico. That's all I've gotta say. I'll entertain a motion to either approve this or just approve it. I would like to know the city's standpoint on this after going through this after quite a while. Yeah, I guess from our perspective, Mr. Butcher certainly has the opportunity to come here. You're right, the zoning has certain ramifications. Like I said, the zoning right now says 25 feet and none of the house meet that 25 feet. So that's, but you're right. This is the board that has the ability to hear these concerns. At the last meeting, Mr. Butcher did not have a drawing really kind of reflecting what he was, I mean, he had a top view, but not really a design. And that was what was after to further the discussion. So from a staff perspective, this is not, it's not a clear cut one. It certainly has merits to it from a design perspective. And if the board was to approve it, I think whoever would approve it should approve it with a survey that confirms that what is being shown here with the seven foot and the eight foot is submitted and as well as final drawings. So that those drawings that would get submitted for building inspection review would be similar to what you have before you in this conceptual drawing. And if they were not, that it would be brought back to the board to reconsider. You're talking about this elevation here is what you're expecting to see as a finished product. That's what he's proposing. Okay. My motion? Yes. I would move to approve a set. Let's do this. First of all, we have a motion. Are you making the motion? I'm making the motion. Anybody second to you? I don't know. What about material? Can you, if I chance hit yours, Stan? It's going to be, yep, go ahead. Material is going to be a vinyl, taric or teak or the plastic vinyl is not going to be the composite. Yeah, composite, exactly. Yeah. So it's not going to be the treated pressure, treat or anything. It's going to be composite. And I had, like I said, I had pictures in the end. We've had some problems with the emails that showed up of what it was going to look like, but with the emails not coming through. But yeah, it's going to be a composite and a nice dark wood color. And the front of the house is staying the same. What's in the rails? There was mention of the pulse. Are those six by six or are those two by six? I mean, what, I'm assuming the final plan design that actually gets constructed, that gets submitted is going to reflect this conceptual drawing. Yeah. We didn't have a lot of time to kind of act on this and we thought it was important to sort of wire frame it out and to try to get photographs to give you at least an indication that Pat's view, which was what I understood to be the primary complaint, wasn't being impeded. Yes, I have a set of drawings that have done for Rob on the interior renovation of the house. I had done that preliminary drawing for Rob of a potential porch that has now gone by the wayside. This would become what we're talking about. As you mentioned, composite material, there's two different companies that make decking. One's called Fibron, F-I-B-E-R-O-N, and they have a wide variety of colors available. It's very stable material. It's what I'm using in my own house, and there's treks, which is more expensive and has been on the market longer but has less of a color selection. In terms of the encasement material, if you can imagine that there's a three inch round lolly column, kind of the way you probably might have in your basement, which is not uncommon, that's what would be encased in these three six by six. So they're basically getting trimmed out with vinyl. It's a polyvinyl material, and it's paintable. The railing that's shown is actually a cable rail tell the intention, spaced four inches apart, which is the maximum per code. The center column for the rail would be steel, and it's only a two by two, and it's just for attachment of the cables, and then there'll be a top hand rail, and that could either be painted white or stained to match the deck. There's nothing here that's out of the ordinary in terms of building materials. And in fact, my own porch, when I went to the building department to talk to them, the first thing they said is it has to be six by six pressure treated wood. And I said, I'm using steel lolly columns. And they said, oh, you're doing it right. And then the building inspector went on to tell me how he had pointed out to his neighbor, whose porch supports were rotted, that he needed to replace them, and his neighbor simply encased them and trimmed.  The only thing holding that span and keeping the A from coming, pushing down on the front was the trim. The only thing supporting the roof, the structure, was the conical shaped trim that came down onto two inches of concrete, and then just a perimeter edge of brick that was hollow on the inside. I'm structurally upgrading mine to make it correct with the ABC, Rob is gonna be doing the same. What is the material below the deck that faces the street? We haven't decided yet what we're gonna do to kind of enclose that area. What I'm doing on my own house is that perimeter edge, and I'm sorry that it's kind of a skew, but what I had done previously, what I'm going to do again, is I did a perimeter trim edge out of the PVC and then I infilled with the bead board. So actually used bead board so it had retained sort of the historical value of the craftsman's style house. And then are you using the brick? It looks like you have brick at the corner. Stone or possibly brick, things have not quite yet been decided. And the stairs, those are something other than treated wood. The treads will match the deck. They'll be made out of composite material. They will be pressure treated wood underneath, and then the edges will be clad and the fascia will be clad with that PVC composite material. And then the roof, both the top material as well as the portion that you would see if you're looking up from the deck. The fascia around the soffit is again the PVC composite material. And what's interesting is at that angle, standing directly in front of the house, you don't actually see the four one pitch of the roof that goes back, but it would be a standard asphalt shingle to match the roof of the house. And anything as far as, like I said, that just the portion when you're... Oh, the underside of the deck? Yeah. Yeah, the ceiling? Yes, the ceiling. I think we'd be looking at trying to do bead board again and carry that historical look. So your footprint on the lot is what you show here. 18 feet from the inside of the sidewalk, the lot line to the house. And then you've got eight foot deck that we're gonna be working on, seven foot between there. And you've got three feet from the inside of the sidewalk. Yeah. So there's, if you start at the edge of the sidewalk. Well, we can't feed from the inside of the sidewalk, but to be starting these posts or the foundation. Well, I don't believe that. Word? Yes. Seven feet in. Yeah, he's just saying from the sidewalk, he was saying the additional three. 10 feet total, three and seven. Right. The modern math is 10 feet. No, he was talking from the property line, which is typically what we talk from. Yeah, I'm talking from the property line. Sorry, I'm an architect. We talk from property lines. We don't talk from sidewalks. Would you have footings and dross wells below there? Excuse me. A footing structure below grade? Yeah, we have to go to minimum of four feet. Okay. I have a motion on the floor to approve this, and that's been seconded. Is there any more discussion? Has it been seconded? It has not been seconded. No. Well, I thought Kelly was seconded. It just got seconded. There we go. Is there any more discussion? I'll call the question. All in favor say aye. Opposed? Robert, you got yourself a deal. Thank you very much. I think the important thing is that you have six months to get a permit to start construction. Okay, let's move to the next. All right, let's keep going. Is there more to the meeting or are we all done? We're going to want a survey. And something for the drawings. Yeah, we'll get that. You too. Yeah. Yeah, thanks. Motion to adjourn. All in favor say aye. Opposed? Aye. Opposed? None. So it's carried. Thank you, everybody.