Good evening everyone and thank you for joining us, just waiting for a few more people to join us this evening, so we'll be starting very shortly. Hello Alex, can you hear me okay. Yeah, as always all sounds good. Excellent. Excellent. Everyone can see me and can see my background and wants to play along you can have a guess at where this picture was taken. I don't know how big I am in most people's screens so it's maybe a bit difficult but if you can, you can see and maybe guess where Alex is as well. If anyone wants to have a guess at that, you can put your answers in the chat chat box, or just play along at home without without showing your answers. We will give you your answers as well in a minute. I'm not quite sure where mine was to be honest. Oh no. Yours does look a little bit like Scout Scar and Kendall until you realise how far away it is. Is that somewhere near Bristol? It is, yeah, yeah. I'm warm, I'm warm. Someone says Spain. I think it does look a bit like Spain actually. It was after the dry spell in the last few months. Yours is a bit greener so I would assume it's late district or somewhere. It was taken by a friend, Dan, a couple weeks ago actually up near Ulzwater. I've given it away but I need to guess which mountain I was on. So actually I've had one correct answer so far. Anyway, we'll make a start. My background is Cheddar Gorge actually. Great, thank you very much for joining us this evening. I just posted something in the chat. If anyone's got any questions for Alex as we go along then please feel free to pop your questions in there. And I'll be keeping an eye on it so if I look like I'm looking down then I'm just checking the chat so I can put as many questions to Alex as possible. Obviously if you're on Zoom that's great, you can use the chat box. If you're watching us on Facebook because we're streaming live to Facebook then please use the comments section down underneath the video. And you can pop your comments in there and they should reach me as well. I've got someone looking out for those. So I'll try and get a few through as many as possible in the next half an hour, 40 minutes. Fantastic, so it's really great to have Alex here. He's an endurance athlete, award-winning author. He's charity fundraiser, mental health campaigner. The list is endless really Alex. And it's been a while since we caught up. I think I saw you about four years ago when you were doing a few talks in Bristol and Covent Garden and Manchester. And then you just come back from Everest but obviously quite a few things have changed since then. How's lockdown been for you the last few months? Yeah, well it's great to be here Mark. And again I think last time I saw you would have been Artinalis Brigham Talk, proud to be an ambassador for the brand. That's another thing on the list. I think since lockdown when it was start really, I think this year we need to just plug it in and start again. It's been really interesting. Most of the challenges we get to choose but this thing has been completely out of our hands and we've kind of been dragged along if we like it or not. And in some ways I felt quite grateful. I've managed quite well during this time. I've had a lot that I felt thankful for and for me it's been fairly easy compared to some. As an introvert I've really enjoyed the time alone and just that sort of space. But equally it's brought us challenges. It really hasn't been tough at times. I think all of us have had our resilience on the test. And I guess now we're coming to see some kind of light at the end of this tunnel. I'm just having to adapt as best we can but I think obviously being self-employed, that's been a very uncertain time. And yeah, it's been kind of nice to have sort of a change in pace but equally like many people, plans and goals that have been put on hold have been taken out of my hands and we can't quite see the top of the mountain yet. I was always trying to kind of find the opportunities, trying to find the positives, trying to help with people on the way. But also at times I found it really quite difficult. And I think it wasn't for the ability to run and get outside and just to find some perspective and hope. I genuinely don't know how I would have handled it and I felt incredibly grateful that I've got the hills on my doorstep. I've said healthy, I've not been in a high-risk group or my family are well. So yeah, lots of grateful thought but I think all of us have been on this roller coaster and we have all been in the same storm but we're not all in the same boat. Yeah, totally agree with that and I've been going for more runs than normal and it has been a real saviour at times. So that's great, that's good to hear. And last time we met, you kindly gave me a copy of your book, Icefall. And when I was coming to sort of organise this talk, I sort of reread your autobiography and the words that kind of came to mind about you, that sort of described you and particularly over the last five years what you've achieved, a sort of resilient, I think you said it there and determined and very driven. But that's quite different from the person you were when you were younger who pretty much hated sports and you very much suffered a lot of adversity from bullying to your stammer and things like that. Yeah, do you feel that you've obviously used or channeled that adversity in a really positive way over the last few years? Do you feel it's been your kind of motivation? Definitely, to go back to where the journey started, I was never a typical outdoors candidate. I was lucky to be brought up near the forest and came in the countryside, so I always enjoyed being out walking the dogs, but in terms of any challenges of physical sports, I was never really into that. I think when I was about nine years old, things really changed for me because I was diagnosed with a mild form of epilepsy. I was brought under control, but was just a catalyst for a whole host of other challenges such as anxiety and panic attacks, having a bad stammer ever since I've been able to speak, which comes and goes where it likes, but like Donald Trump. And it's just been, it was a really unlikely journey, I was relentlessly bullied throughout my entire time at school, so my confidence was down in the valley. Even having a seizure in McDonald's when I was about nine, meant that even the smell of fast food could cause a panic attack. So going through school was really spent just trying to manage this anxiety, while some of my friends were more interested in football and PlayStation and so on. And that really sent me on a different path. Now, finally outdoors by chance when I was about 13 or 14 was that really kind of life changing moment for me because I finally found somewhere where I, you know, where I belong. I found a way to fight back to prove myself to prove all the bullies wrong. And suddenly your mindset shifts, you know, you become, you kind of move from this victim mindset to a victory mindset, and realizing that actually the biggest barrier was myself. You know, I started to realize that actually I had a choice. We don't always get to choose our challenges like now, but we can choose how we respond. Absolutely the outdoors was a way that where it was only myself versus the, you know, versus the environment. I wasn't being held back by anything else and that was where the confidence this passion came from and from the early age, sent me on this journey to keep on challenging myself keep on finding out what else I could overcome. And ultimately now using those experiences to try and inspire people to overcome their challenges. Fantastic. So there may be people watching this who possibly don't know that you've, you've attempted ever as twice but I can't really speak to you Alex without maybe talking about Everest. I'm sure you, you may be tired of talking about it because you've done so much since but one of the questions I wanted to ask about ever so you attempted it. That's when you were 18, I think 2013. And then again, in 2015, both both times massive setback from an avalanche on your first trip to the big earthquake in the second trip. The question I wanted to say was, you know, on that second trip you were your tent or was it your first trip got your tent got taken out. And you should have been in your 10th to some extent. And how did you deal really with it, the sort of disappointment when you you returned home of both those trips that had obviously been a long time in the making for them to be taken out of your hands you were just talking about controlling the controllable sort of thing but yeah. I mean both trips are very different. And I guess you, many people would argue it wasn't so much a long time in the making because I'd kind of been able to do a lot in a short time and gone from, you know, setting the goal setting the deadline, actually four years later, being at every space camp. That wasn't necessarily an approach that I would recommend it wasn't necessarily approach I take now but I was able to put the steps in place to actually make a goal of reality. You know, in the Alps climbing then Scotland, then 7,000 meter peak in Himalayas so I'd, you know, I've taken a, I wouldn't say a very shortcut approach, but a very unconventional approach to Everest. And so, even if it hadn't necessarily been a lifetime goal for many, for many people they might spend, you know, 10 20 30 years training and you know moving towards Everest. For me it was the ultimate goal it was the ultimate achievement that ultimate way to overcome, you know, all these early challenges, and I wanted it more than anything. So I guess even in a short time there was still about emotional investment there. So naturally yet there's a massive disappointment.  I mean it taken a year of fundraising, trying to raise about 35,000 pounds in corporate sponsorship, whilst working in a pub washing pots, you know, nothing glamorous about that. So essentially I dedicated more than a year just to that alone. And, and then you realize that actually, you know, mountaineering is very much a gamble. Like anything in life you learn you have two choices you can see as an excuse you can complain you can feel sorry for yourself or you can think okay what's the opportunity. You know failure becomes another chance to win. So, yeah, you feel very frustrated and very reactive, but then quickly you start to have to accept it to be able to move forward. So, you know, I was lucky to come home safely there was an avalanche, which kills 16 people, you know, we didn't get to go on the mountain itself. So took that year to fundraise more to, to, you know, change my approach and training. So this peak you can see in the picture was the highest peak of Switzerland the DOM. That was one of the peaks of climb that that summer after Everest. Ultimately, you know, you just you turn it into a positive. And in hindsight, it becomes a positive thing. So 2015 went back to the mountain and this time was obviously very different because we were on the mountain when the Nepal earthquake hits. We were trapped at Camp 1 for two days. We got hit by a big power avalanche, but actually we were in the safest place of all because sadly 22 people have died at base camp, including three of our own team. So naturally that was a very different process because you know you don't care about the call at that point. You know you come home with this guilt this horrible confusion really you know you don't really want to be anywhere. And I guess for me it's that sense of you know why them why not me dealing with seeing base camp devastated destroyed and you know dreams can be replaced but lives can't. So that was a longer process definitely. So true. And from. So, so after you've been to the Everest the second time you sort of came back and it feels you threw yourself into sort of charity work and raising a lot of money from Nepal to help them rebuild after the avalanche. And then charities like Young Minds sort of culminating in in winning winning an award for for raising all this money is that is that. I think yeah when it came back the natural response was to raise money for charity, you know for the for the people in Nepal I mean over 9,000 people have been killed by the earthquake. It's only a very, very tiny part of that. And so you've seen this beautiful country, beautiful people that become, you know that become close friends devastated, you know, and people that have so little but give so much and so naturally to kind of cope with that kind of guilt and trauma you have to do something positive so I did a few challenges, you know to do that I decided if I couldn't climb Everest I was going to cycle it. It was a challenge call everything where you cycle the height of Everest in a day. That was good fun. I took about 21 hours on great don't fell in the pen lines. And then that was raising money for the Himalayan Trust. And then I started to work with a charity called phase worldwide been an ambassador for them now three years. We started a series called Walk for Nepal. For the next three years, we've done Benavis scarf or pike and Snowden. I think I think that's raised about 40,000 pounds now, which goes a long way in Nepal. And then did my, probably my biggest challenge today which was climbing UK in 2017, which is the young minds. And that's a kind of story itself. I was actually looking enough to be chosen as the Pride of Britain Granada reports fundraiser of the year so completely expected. But the most incredible recognition that you could ever ever get, you know, to be from, you know, cycling through Scotland in pouring Scottish rain in the middle of nowhere to actually being in a room next to Prince Harry and what have you it's just surreal. Yeah, that's really inspiring. What you did what you did that and what one of the things I mean you touched on it there. The, the climb, all the 100 UK's highest points. And I was going to sort of say, in your book, I saw you, you talk about how obstacles are there to overcome. I think in your kind of challenges that you create for yourself.  And I just had this calling and nothing else that had got me quite like that. And after Everest, there was, there was Troy you in Tibet, which is the six highest peak in the world. And surprisingly enough, I didn't reach the top of that either. But that's when I had this kind of shift in thinking towards, you know, what am I, well, had I been in that tent on Everest the year before. I was in the base camp. Obviously, you know, I'm most likely wouldn't be here now. What would I have left behind and start to realize that actually it's not just about the top it's about the journey. So, ultimately, I realized I wanted to do something close to home. And I kind of go through this kind of, almost this entrepreneurial type process where you're trying to find the idea you've got a criteria, I set what, you know, set out what they need to be. And it takes a while, you know, you can be absolutely stressing over an idea because it's not quite right because it's got to find the balance between it's got to be challenging enough that it scares me. And to be on the edge of can I do this is this is this a bit too daft. Is it too easy is it too hard and it's got to find that right balance and essentially I knew I wanted to do something else knew what I wanted to feel like. And for months and months and months I couldn't get it couldn't get it. I've always wanted to do something a bit differently, you know, my whole life has been very unconventional in a number of ways I've never liked the whole beat and track. And I guess Everest wasn't so much unconventional. And then, eventually I think I, I get to the point where I ask friends, you know, I ask people, I ask people for their opinions and I judge their, you know, I judge their response. My mom threatens to break my legs I'm generally nearly there. And then I think towards the end of that year, I got to that point where I was talking about this kind of moment. Where I kind of, you know, imagine that kind of finish line what that summit would look like, and these kind of goosebumps run my arm. I was having a coffee with a friend at the time, and his goosebumps just ran all around. And he just said to me, you know, that's your why you found it. And that was when I knew I had it because I'd only had that feeling when I imagined Everest. So I'm kind of looking for that moment but until then like any idea you've just got to keep on stressing till you get there. Yeah, you've got to almost find something that's just on the edge of challenging and make yourself accountable. You know, once I announce something once I'm committed that's it. The hard part is getting to that point of commitment. Because by that point, you've kind of got no way out, you've got to do it. It's a bit like throwing yourself in the deep end and learning to swim, but I've kind of always done it that way. Yeah, it's just naturally how I approach it really. I think it's a good way to be. I think if you kind of take too much time about it and you sort of take too tentative steps, then you never... What's been your biggest personal challenge, would you say, to date? Obviously, you know... Any outdoors or personal? Both really. I mean, the challenges that you've done and then, yeah, the sort of personal challenges that you've overcome as well. The endurance challenges, I guess, and the personal challenges, what's been the biggest? Good question. I think the thing is they're all part of the same journey because, for me, the physical challenges are a way of overcoming the personal ones. That's what my journey has always been about. And, you know, I think, as you said before, to kind of set yourself a challenge, where we have a choice, whereas we don't have a choice to deal with a lot of the things in our personal lives. But for me, that process, that resilience we would gain along the way is what makes that journey worthwhile. I think, on an adventure perspective, climbing the UK was probably the toughest thing I've done. I mean, that was sort of 5,000 miles of cycling, walking, running, kayaking in 72 days. It only been done once before in that style by Johnny Muir. And kind of, you know, I think I was faster than him, but to be honest, it wasn't so much about that. It was just something very different. A way to engage people around the UK. A way to see so much more of our home soil, which I never appreciated away in the Himalayas, you know, when you're in a tent halfway across the world, actually finding there's so much adventure and possibilities in our home soil. But that challenge really tested me because you've got day after day of effort, you know, cycling up to 222 miles, 18 hour days, all weathers. And it wasn't like lockdown. It was like two and a half months of just rain and wind and everything. And on Everest and on expeditions, you've got a lot of downtime. You spend a lot of time in your tent, eating biscuits, playing cards, waiting for the conditions and waiting for a climatization. On that challenge, I always wanted it to be self supported. So it was just, you know, me and the bike carrying stuff most of the time. And that day to day effort combined with not eating enough and a few kind of rookie mistakes. That race against time, you know, was was exhausting.  But I had the most amazing support people really got behind it. It raised a lot of money because people would love that home adventure and the mental health story. So that that was the Everest I never had really. And of course, as you can see, that was the big finale 72 days later bang on schedule. I could have taken more time and it wouldn't have been as physically challenging, but I would have been able to experience it more. But for me, the physical challenge is really important.  You know, I mean, like many people, you know, I've suffered with the peaks and troughs over the years and probably over eight years now. And yeah, I'm, you know, I'm openly talking about that now. But for a long time, I wasn't able to, especially as this adventurer and athlete and speaker.  And and yeah, I think I've always been very much an all or nothing type. And then when these disasters or when they were setbacks out of my control, the balance is tipped. And I found myself facing a different kind of Everest. And I think that could be a very, very difficult, very hopeless place. You know, for me, having challenges, having that purpose is what's got me through. But ultimately, you know, that was inspiration behind climbing UK was it took me, it took me longer to get an NHS appointment than to actually cycle, run and walk around the highest point of all the counties, which is quite worrying when you think about it. And I was lucky that I had the outdoors as a way to try and manage that, you know, to get me through. But I think, you know, anxiety, depression, underneath a disorder, you know, which started because of an injury when I couldn't run. I think it's, yeah, it's a different kind of mountain. But ultimately, you know, the outdoors and having these challenges is what's given me a way through. And hopefully to help other people talk about it as well, you know, to kind of put the hand up first. Because it took me a long time to do that. And actually, by speaking out, it's helped other people too as well. And I think I think that's really important. And good for you for doing that and writing about it as well in your book as well. It's kind of an easy thing to do. And I'm going to dip into a few questions from people. If that's okay. So Richard Ellis asks, everest aside, would you go back to Nepal? Hi Richard. Yeah, well, Richard has saved my skin on quite a few challenges up to date. So hi, Rich. I presume it's the same one, but you know, there's only one. Aside from Everest, I mean, I love Nepal. I've been lucky to go there five times now. And the most rewarding trip I've actually had out there was my last one in 2017.  And see what the real Nepal's like away from tourist side. And that was phenomenal. You know, you're in the type of, you're in the places where the kids are walking over mountains to get to school. You know, where they have to walk a day to get to the nearest shop. It's amazing. And I got to see some of the friends and people that I haven't seen since the earthquake. It was so emotional. I think mentally and I think this, I think kind of, I think spiritually I had to almost put some of those memories to bed, you know, because I'll never forget what we saw out there. So that was an amazing trip and I'd love to go back, but I think at the moment I've just got so many other things and projects on that it's fine at the time really. As for the big mountains Everest and high mountains, I mean, it's, it I'm too young to say never, it's just not yet. There's bigger and more rewarding challenges, I think close to home now and but going out there just to enjoy it was phenomenal. Simon Lewis, Lewis asks, what is the one thing you cannot do without on any of your any adventure expedition?  Hi Simon, again, asked is Simon helped out on the Waterford and Paul events himself. So let me think. It sounds very hypocritical, but I think my phone and not because I want to be on, you know, you know, on Facebook, you know, social media, but I think just to have music. I think in the moments and the really tough times, it's been able to play music has really got me through. I've always kind of enjoyed music and I think sometimes when you're on your own for long periods of time and challenges, it can be a real motivator. So not necessarily to have the signal and distractions because you want to get the time away from that. That's the whole point. But having music or some sort of music player for me. I think is is always very much a piece of mine thing as well. And I think a decent waterproof which I didn't have on climate UK. I made a big mistake there. And I think that was that's always a that's always a blessing really so yeah. And music player and I'm probably going to probably going to forget something else really because I have so much kit with me on, you know, on these things. But that's always the life saver for me.  I recall a time I was, I was, I think it was on the climate UK challenge with I was in the middle of a club, then Africa, one of the most remote valleys in Scotland, and I had a bit of a meltdown because it was wet, cold, exhausted, scared alone. And it was, it was one of those days when you kind of can't see the top and then you then cloud lifts and you realise it's a false summit and the real ones miles away. I just think I sat there and cried to myself. And it was, I think it was rune rigged lot loam and came on came on the and I was just belting out singing along at full volume because there was nobody around to hear. And it's amazing what it can do for the spirits. Yeah. Yeah, it can be a great motivator. Thanks for your comment. Just just go to this question, I think. Yeah, I want to just talk, we'll dip into a few other questions a minute, but I just want to talk about, sort of mental health for a minute, I know you've obviously touched on it already. you touched on social media, particularly there. You said about carrying your phone, although you said that it's not because you want to be on social media, but I just want to know what's your thoughts on social media and it's kind of rolling adventures and mental health. On one side, it obviously helps someone like yourself communicate that you've been there and done that, and I know that's not necessarily the purpose of what you do. But on the other, it's all this screen time and all this seeing other people do stuff is can't be that good for mental health. Well, it's kind of not, is it? I think it's been proven that it's not. So just get your thoughts on that. Really interesting question. And yeah, I mean, I do enjoy being able to share the adventures and the moments with people. I do enjoy getting to share those stories and it's not about, you know, look where I am. It's just, I love being able to try and put that into words and try and capture that moment. You know, if I've been on an amazing hill run at sunrise and I just get there, there's this magic feeling that I want to try and capture. And you know, I love being able to share that and see others and get inspired by where they've been. And you know, I want to explore it as well. That's the positive about it. It's about broadening horizons and I'm finding out about things. And I think there's a great online community. I've met so many great friends through, you know, through social media, through the outdoors that when it came to my challenge, they were able to come out and be part of it, which is fantastic. You know, some of those have become great friends. That's lots of the positives, but I think there is a very careful balance. Recently, I've actually kind of just come back from kind of two or three weeks, you know, where I went offline. I think because my work, you know, speaking of writing is very much kind of a creative process and there's only so much energy for that you have and social media can, when you, you know, when you have kind of, you know, when you have sponsors and you do various things, it can become a commitment. And ultimately, you know, it can take a lot of, a lot of your mental energy away, just trying to maintain that. And yeah, it becomes addictive. It's designed to be addictive. And I think if you're already struggling or feeling, you know, feeling bad, it can give you a sense of connection, but also it can make you feel worse. You know, especially if you're not able to do things that others are during lockdown and really feel for the people that haven't been able to get outside as much.  But equally, I felt conscious that other people might be feeling worse about that. So it's something that needs to be managed and I think, and carefully filtered. You know, we have full control over it, of what we see and how we react to it, but at the same time, the real risk of comparison and, you know, feeling inferior. I think it's important to keep check on what we're seeing and how much that is realistic and not using it as some kind of yardstick for ourselves. And after that two, three weeks away, just reducing the stress of having to respond to things and just to check things when we find ourselves reaching for our phones instinctively, I think it's healthy because it can become quite consuming. But equally, you know, it's quite nice to go on long runs and see nice things without feeling the need to get a picture for Instagram. But it can be fun as well. So I think there's a careful argument for both. But ultimately, you know, we have to keep in control of that. And I read recently that we spend an average of 24 hours a week on our phones. Whether that's true or not, but you think of how much we can use that time in more beneficial ways to go in the hills sometimes without our phones, just to enjoy it for ourselves without having to get a good picture of it is quite liberating. So, yeah, getting some time off is really good, I think. That's a great answer. Thanks. Thanks, Alex. So next question would be just sticking on on the mental health subject for a little bit longer. I mean, you've created this, you've created Mind Over Mountains, which is, you know, leading on from the sort of social media thing. It is designed to get more people out into the hills. Can you tell us a little bit more about that as well? Yeah, sure. So, yeah, it's a new project. It's almost a charity. You know, we're still in that process now, but at the moment we're a community interest company, so kind of a social enterprise. And we started this about two years ago with Aventure Uncovered, and it's kind of grown from that idea where we wanted to do an event to, you know, help people get in the hills for them, you know, for their mental, you know, physical health. I think for me personally, it's been the most powerful medication I've tried. You know, I've been, you know, on medication, I've been through those various, you know, the various options in treatment, but it took so long to get it that it almost became useless. And for me, it was always getting outside again, having a goal, something to get me out of bed in the morning that actually was a lot more powerful. And I think as a natural intervention, we've lost touch with that. So I really feel that, you know, by staying active and being outside more often, we can prevent a lot of these issues, getting to the where they are. So ultimately, I wanted to help more people access that. And we did an event in the lakes two years ago, which was a big success where we didn't just come, you know, didn't just offer the hill walking, but combine that with NLP, mindfulness, and, you know, and inspirational speakers. So there's that full, like, you know, that full holistic approach, which is a lot more powerful, because there's lots of people just doing days in the hills, but actually having the self-help skills and resilience, I think is really important. Getting people away from the phones for, you know, for, you know, two days, joining a group of people like them, because it can be very isolating. And you have no idea what people are dealing with. You know, I certainly didn't. So I think it's just getting people into that kind of safe space. So ultimately, after the success of that one, we did another event last year, and we had two events planned this year in the lakes and the peaks, which obviously were postponed because of COVID. So naturally, you know, we want to reach out to everybody, you know, who needs us. I think at the moment we've been looking for ways that we can support people that have been affected by the, you know, by the last few months of lockdown, because let's face it, I think our mental health has been affected more than ever. And I think all the challenges of that, you know, people need to reconnect with the outdoors more than ever to support those most affected. So we are doing two events in the lakes and the peaks again, next month where we're doing small groups. So we can also maintain, you know, the max group size. I think the social distancing rules are six at the moment. So we've got kind of smaller ratios and we're doing all the mindfulness, all the coaching, all online instead.  And we're doing that in the short term just as a way to help people get outside safely and responsibly. Because, you know, we've heard a lot of negative news about, you know, the parks and people going there in crowds and we don't want to add to that. So we're doing that and offering bursaries for, you know, people who are unemployed because obviously there's been a lot of financial hardship and also the frontline workers who've had to deal with all the trauma. So if anybody wants to find out more about that, I know you've put a link in the chat to the events and obviously on our site as well. But, you know, we do have bursaries available and access to actually subsidize counseling for people who need it. Because, yeah, we've all had an unclimbed mountain recently, you know, myself included. Oh, that's great. So just for people on Facebook who can't see the link, we will post something on there after this, but it's mindovermountains.org.uk forward slash events. And interestingly, the question that we had from Jennifer Tankard, she asks, it's been great to see so many people get into outdoor fitness during lockdown. And how do you think you can re-energize grassroots outdoors activity post lockdown? So I think that kind of links into what we were just talking about really about mind over mountains. Yeah, I think interesting question.  Every man and his dogs are walking and it's been lucky that we've had glory sunshine, which has helped. And I think when things are taken away, people appreciate them so much more. And I think that's great. And I hope that habit keeps up. I hope people do realize benefits more of being active every day. I think I'm hoping that because of that, because we've seen an experience that I really hope that will change the attitude and culture towards it and that people will see the importance of, you know, of access to these things in the long term, you know, not just during the lockdown time. And I hope that includes, you know, more funding and more attention to those sort of projects because, you know, after the mental health challenges we've had during this time and during the ongoing uncertainty, I really think that people are going to need that as part of the process to recover. So I think ultimately as well, you know, we've been isolated, we've been disconnected from each other. And I think if we, I think people are going to be very keen to be reconnected. So I think if we keep that as our narrative and, you know, use that as an opportunity, I think that itself will be a good opportunity to set new things up. So I think it's just about bringing people back together is the message for me and, you know, trying to reach out to the people that have been most affected. I think it's hard to see what that might look like because everybody's sort of still working out what's going on. But I think if we've proven the need, so let's hope it changes attitudes. That's great. Alex, campsites reopened this weekend. Have you a favourite campsite or do you just prefer wild camping? I normally stay in hostels. I'm a real wimp, to be honest. Okay. I don't know if that's it for the white chase I'm a bit biased, but I do prefer hostels. And there's some great ones around the UK that I think give you a great base to go off and do things and run. I don't know if the hostels are opening again soon. I do prefer wild camping. I think, you know, I love the whole, just the whole freedom of it being able to be out in the hills and wake up to a sunrise in the mountains for me is magical. But since moving up in Cumbria, I'll be honest, I tend to prefer to get up really early and go back home. So I've not camped on a campsite for a while, but if I had to say a wild camping spot just before lockdown started, you know, me and a friend went up to camp on a home fell near Coniston and just to get a night away from the chaos of what was going on in the world. And then actually it was blissful to see the sunrise over Coniston water and then come back to the news and just, you know, the moon goes flat again. So I think just to get out in the fells and the lakes will be on my list very soon. Yeah, that's great. A few more questions from people then. If I may, the, let's go with, well, actually we'll go with Dom Ainsley who is actually, he also lives in the lakes. He asks, how do you structure your training? So you've been doing quite a lot of running recently. I know he's a big, big runner as well. So yeah, how do you structure your training? Yeah, hi, Dom. On the running side of it, I've come from kind of a row running background. Until recently, you know, I've always kind of, you know, I've trained sort of 5K up to kind of road marathon. And so typically, you know, for me a training week would, you know, it would always be one rest day and then I'd do sort of two or three speed sessions and, you know, a long run, you know, an easy mileage in between. Since moving in the lakes, I've been a bit more freestyle up and doing a lot more in the fells, which I'm sure you know, is a different type of training. And as a result, I've lost my speed and, you know, and I've spent a lot of time falling over instead. Last year was very much, I didn't run at a very good level. I just kind of just enjoy being in the fells and getting to get kind of, you know, to get stronger in the hills instead. I didn't necessarily follow a structured plan other than having a long run every weekend in the fells. And, you know, you know, the uphill race, I felt very frustrated that not really having a goal in mind was difficult to follow any structured plan. So, yeah, more recently, obviously, I've got, you know, I've got my next project in mind. And so I have had a coach which has obviously helped me to have more structure. Generally, it's on a four week cycle, you know, is an easy week, then it builds that a peak week, you know, of mileage intensity. But, you know, as an ultra challenge, I've had to adapt once again because I'm used to speed sessions and, you know, I was good, you know, I go faster, but now I've had to kind of accept myself as a plodder, less intensity, more long, easy mileage, which in some ways has been nice because I've been able to do more and I can see more. So ultimately, yeah, that's what I've been doing recently. I'm now not coach, so I'm now trying to train myself, which I think works well for me. I've always done my own thing. But it's following that kind of schedule really and trying to avoid injuries. So it's my kind of common challenge. Right. Thank you for that. So a question from Heather Lundbeck. I want to do a challenge, but I'm also safety conscious as someone who wants to set themselves a challenge, but isn't sure how to make sure they can do it safely. What would you recommend? What sort of advice would you give in order to allow her to upskill so that she can do something a bit more challenging? Great question, yeah. I think ultimately it depends on what you're interested in, you know, whether it's, you know, you know, it's mountaineering, it's running, it's cycling and what those risks are. I think at the moment, obviously we've got all the frictions in place and it's a bit difficult, you know, I know my challenge is on hold. It's, you know, it's good to go soon, but obviously it's, you know, we're in a pandemic and I've got to be responsible. So I think to have an idea of what those risks are, first and foremost, how you mitigate those, there's always going to be an element of risk. It just depends on how much of those you're willing to take. But ultimately, I think it's, you know, it's getting, you know, the experience in those places. For example, in this mountaineering, it might be doing a skills course first, you know, so you get the good background knowledge as a foundation and if it's running in the hills, you know, it might be to join a club to get more time with people to, you know, to learn, you know, you know, to learn from them. If you're looking at doing, you know, organized events, I mean, again, they have a lot of safety kind of in place in procedures. So I guess it depends what you're looking for really. Most of my challenges have been very much a kind of an independent self-propelled thing where I'm kind of putting myself out there, but ultimately I think it really depends on where you're going to be and then spending a lot of time just building, just I think, you know, you know, I think just actually building up to that, you know, not throwing yourself too much in the deep end, staying within a comfortable level of your expertise and experience so that you're not pushing yourself too far and potentially putting yourself in danger. But ultimately that only comes from experience and practice and you know, you know, you don't climb Everest in a week. You have to climb lots of peaks and the Alps and the Himalayas beforehand. So I think it's just a pragmatic approach and getting advice, being around people that have been there learning from them and yeah, enjoying the process. Yeah, definitely. I think a good place to start is, because you're an outside champion, aren't you? OS. Probably a good place to start is Ordnance Survey and refresh your map skills and depends obviously on what challenge you want to do but you get that confidence. They have a great hub actually on their side for the moment where lots of resources and maps and guides for all sorts of challenges. And I think ultimately it's just to join a club, to be with people like that around you that are doing similar things. And you know, if you're not confident on your own to begin with, then, you know, do a joint challenge, do an organised event just to build up that experience. Yeah, it's great. Great advice, thank you. A few questions that come in around this topic, so I'll ask it. Have, what's your favourite mountain or peak that you've summited? Not many. I think, you know, I love the lakes. I mean, that's why I kind of came up here. It's always been very special because that's where my everest dream was first inspired. And there's so many up here and so many more to do and during lockdown I've been trying to take them off close to home. I think Soutafell, which is near Blancathra, was actually where I had that everest kind of vision and moment. So that will always be special for me. Anywhere in Buttermere, that whole valley, those peaks, I loved a bit, especially on a kind of clear summer night. In terms of bigger peaks, I mean Mont Blanc was my kind of my very first bigish mountain. Summited that at sunrise in July 2012. And yeah, that was a really special moment for me. So I think it's difficult to say a favourite peak. But for me, running in the fells and sunrise in the lakes is magical and it still blows my mind even now. So I think anywhere in the South Lakes, you know, is great for me. But even my local hill, Benson Knot, you know, I can get there within probably half an hour from a front door and it still blows me away. So anywhere up high I'll do, really. Question from Molly Dutton. She says, how do you get into inspirational, motivational speaking? And what do you think makes a good speaker? Really interesting question. Thanks, Molly. And I've been lucky enough that through my challenges, I've kind of had a, you know, it seems I've got a kind of story to share because, you know, I'm now fortunate enough that I'm able to speak to, you know, kind of schools and businesses around, you know, around around the UK and in Europe now. And it's a phenomenal journey to be able to share what I've learned in a business context and trying to inspire people to overcome their challenges as well. And so how do I get into it? It kind of happened by chance, because as a stammerer, for me speaking on the phone is a nightmare. You know, I can speak to five or six hundred people in a room, fine. But then I can get on the train home and not be able to ask for a ticket. You know, I've smashed up phones at home for frustration and being able to say my own name. So that itself is an advantage because it kind of makes me very unusual for a speaker. But what it was was my old school asked me to go and speak before Everest, as you know, it was before Mont Blanc and just to inspire the kids and ultimately I would have run away. You know, I would have said to know because even at school I used to hide in the toilet some time to get out of speaking class. But I think I got into that mindset of saying yes to everything and actually realizing that I could do so much more than I thought I could. Actually, if I can inspire people, well, I can't say no to that. You know, I can't say no to an opportunity to actually, you know, share what I'm, you know, share what I've learned. And I did it and I've never been so scared in my life. And once it'll it sounds basic, but like anything, once you've done it once, you realize it gets easier and easier just like talking on mental health, you know, that first time is terrifying. And ultimately from then after, you know, after Everest went wrong, it became more of a story to tell. I really enjoyed it. I started to look for more opportunities. I started contacting schools and I guess people heard more about it. I got the chance to speak more and more. So I think I was lucky that I kind of had a bit of a break with those two disasters and people naturally want to hear about Everest. It's always got that appeal as a motivational speaker. And now it is, you know, it's my, you know, it's my main job.  The stamina is still there, but it's part of me. And it's part of that journey. And I think it turns what makes a good speaker.  Don't want to speak for myself, but I think having coaching early on helped me to learn a lot. And, you know, I think it is about being authentic. It's about being you.  I've had to learn new things, but ultimately going back to to why I'm doing this and, you know, what, why I'm on the stage is about overcoming challenges and letting people see, see, you know, see the real you, you know, you can do all the coaching. You can do all the, you can get all the skills of how to present. But I think you've got to have a good story and you've got to have that passion. Because if you don't believe in yourself, if you don't believe in the message, then other people are going to pick up on that.  Yeah, it's tricky, tricky one to master when I look back on in fact, some of these talks that we've done, a lot of thumbs and ours coming out there.  I haven't. No, interestingly, I was going to do that before Everest, but I realised going off, going to the Himalayas was more specific. It was a lot more useful for my prep and I'd like to go out there. It's not high on my priority list, but I think I've got time. So at some point, I'm sure I get out there. Yeah, it's great. Well, I'm sure you'll you'll succeed where I didn't. So that's that's good. With my luck, Mark, I wouldn't chance it. You you mentioned that you'd like, this is from Verity. Hey, she says, you mentioned that you'd like people to keep going outside and would need a community to do this. How do you see this being done? I think that was more along the lines of USA, and that people should sort of join up with other people and maybe join a club and things like that. Wasn't that I think it's a good question. Because I think recently we've been in this real surreal time where suddenly from from kind of shouting, you know, from shouting of the rooftops, you know, be outside, get outside. We've been saying, no, no, don't go outside. Come back, stay away from each other. And it's been surreal because we've not really know what to do with ourselves. And I've been a bit confused during this time as well, because we've obviously had to stay safe and do our bit and be responsible and we still do. And I think ultimately now is, you know, especially in the mountains, we're just trying to provide opportunities for people to to reconnect with, you know, with people that have been in the same position. And, you know, I think the outdoor community was was there beforehand for the festivals, for, you know, for the events, you know, and generally, once, once the restrictions lift those events and opportunities and festivals will start to open up again, people will be able to come back together. But in the meantime, a lot of that has gone online, you know, like now tonight, we've been able to do these things. There's forums and, you know, there's new ways to connect with people that share the interest. But I think in the meantime, you know, we might not be able to do the, you know, do the, you know, do the big events and groups. But I think ultimately it's about it's about finding new ways to connect in the meantime online and looking for those. And I'm not totally aware of that, but I know a great way to do that. If you look at WowBase, they do their, you know, these, you know, they don't have a number of virtual things online where people, you know, where people join along.   And I think that for me is what keeps the spirit alive, is looking for things online and looking for new opportunities. And we will get back out there, you know, it's just going to have to do things in a different way for now. So sorry, that's not a very good answer, because I think we're still working it out. But I think it will, it will come if I have it. I think it's good. I think, yeah, I think there'll be a lot of people who are keen to get back out there and using using groups like Meetup and things like that certainly will help. But for the moment, yeah, it's just doing what you can online. But one question that Guy asked, time sort of getting on, so we probably just asked two more questions if it may, Alex, but Guy asks, what do you think is beneficial to the mind for inner city kids to get out into the hills? And how would you make it a regular thing for them to do it? Not just a one-off trip. I think this is talking about mind over mountains and whether you were focusing on any sort of kids and getting them out into the hills specifically. Good question, Guy. Yeah. I think at the moment for these events next month, it has been focused more on people in the north, which has been quite badly hit by the virus. You know, I think in Cumbria has the second highest rate of infections outside of London. But equally, we know that, you know, people in the big cities have had less access to the outdoors. And, you know, a lot of people don't even have a private garden.  And so ultimately, you know, at the moment, we're a very small project, but with funding and with plans, we're looking to, you know, expand to every national park in the UK so that we can help to connect people with their nearest places. You know, OK, there might be a long, long way away from the lakes or from Snowdonia, but it might be able to get, you know, the South Downs or, you know, in the Brecon Beacons.  But also not, as you say, not just, not just, you know, as a one off, because, as we say, that's not going to make a lasting change. We need people to make the outdoors part of a habit, you know, because that weekend can give them the spark and give them the skills, but they then need to be able to get out more often.  So I think at the moment, and, you know, it's, you know, early stages, but we are certainly trying to look for ways that we can help people in the cities to get outside, because they're the people that probably need it most. So I guess keep tuned on that really at the moment, you know, we're just encouraging people to make the best use of the space they do have, you know, where it's parks nearby or just walking, you know, you know, just out in the gardens. That's certainly better than the thing I think at the moment. And we're just looking at how we can access the people, but, you know, don't get to the national parks. Great. Thanks, I was, and I just want to end on this question, which weirdly enough has not been asked by anyone, but I know you get asked it all the time. So I'm going to ask, or before I do, I've just put on the last screen that you can see there is obviously if you want to find out any more about Alex, then please get in touch with him via any of those channels. He's also said that if we didn't get a chance to get to your question tonight, then please feel free to tweet him or get in touch with him on Facebook or or Instagram. And you'd be happy to sort of respond, probably in the next not the next day or two, because you're a bit tied up with an event tomorrow. But as soon as you can, I think you will get. But the final question would be what is planned for post lockdown for Alex? Well, I guess we're coming out of lockdown in some way now. And I know it's all very uncertain, you know, it's a day at a time. We can't plan much further than that. I didn't have a project planned to actually try to run the National Free Peaks, which was probably going to be my toughest challenge to date. I think running has been my big focus the last two years, especially being in the lakes now. And it's probably probably safe and Everest. My mum will be glad to hear. So that has obviously been put on hold, because that was going to be in May. I've been very grateful, actually, to have more time and to be more ready to be more prepared. That'll be fundraising, you know, actually four mine of mountains, you know, four mine of mountains again. So that's ready. We're just waiting for the, you know, for the green lights, so to speak. But that all involved running four 450 miles between the National Free Peaks unsupported. So starting on Ben Nevis and also finish on Snowden all being well running nearly the equivalent of two marathons a day. Now, instead, I come from a road running background, so I'm in new territory. But as I said, you've got to push the boat out, I think. And yeah, it's definitely in that borderline fear of, you know, can I do this? And, you know, I don't know if I can run 450 miles, but I can definitely run a mile 450 times. So we'll see. But yeah, of course, right now it's just about finding the right time to do that safely and responsibly in all three countries. But if people go to my site and follow me, they'll find out more about that. That's great. Thank you, Alex. For just as a way of saying thank you to everyone for joining us tonight, I've just about supposed to link to an online form that if you fill it out, then you can have a chance to win a £50 Brigham voucher between now and Friday night it closes. And Alex is very kindly said that you'd also add a signed copy of his Another Peak book, which he covers his exploits of when he climbed all 100 of the UK's highest points in 72 days, wasn't it? Is that all right? Record break here? Yeah, yeah. So Alex will also put that in as well. So so good luck to everyone to enter that. And thank you very much for joining us. Big thank you to you, Alex. I'm sorry to those who we didn't get a chance to cover all your questions, but that's been really, really interesting. And thanks for sharing your story again, Alex. And good luck. Good luck with the yeah, good luck with the three peaks when time comes, we'll be looking, watching out for that. Just somebody just said the surveilling isn't working. Don't you want to check that? OK. Yeah, again, it's been great. And think, yeah, we've had a really interesting year, but we've got to make the best of it. And yeah, looking forward to getting back out there. I've had a couple of years off and, you know, dealing with those personal challenges. And now I'm looking forward to getting on an outdoor challenge and putting one foot in front of the other.  And yeah, stay safe and look forward to seeing the hills. And if you do want more information up on the mind of the mind of the mountain's events, the website's there as well. That's great. Thanks. Thanks again, Alex. I will post the proper link that works in a second if you bear with me. Thank you, everyone. Thank you again, Alex. See you again. Bye. Bye.


So, Matt, today we're reviewing Blockchain Basics, a non-technical introduction in 25 steps by Daniel Drescher. Only 25 steps? Yes, 25 quick and easy steps to blockchain expertise. Now, the blockchain has kind of dulled in the popular consciousness. It's not quite as hot as it used to be, but we're still involved. Yeah, we're absolutely still on the blockchain here at Random Talkers. And I think for good reason, one of the things this book points out is that the blockchain is just a new technology to share information. It is not so much directly about Bitcoin or Ethereum, the cryptocurrencies you may have heard of, and it has a lot more universal applications. And an important thing to keep in mind here is we are very much in the early days of the blockchain. You can kind of compare this to the 1990s of the internet whereby we had the internet and we had websites, but we really didn't have great e-commerce applications. We haven't really evolved all of the different things we would come to later on. And I kind of think blockchain is there right now. Right. I think the early internet comparison is very apt where we're just kind of starting to figure out the commercial possibilities that might be driven by the blockchain. Now, in terms of the format of this segment, we're going to kind of talk through the description that Daniel gave of the blockchain in the book to kind of give you a really solid grounding of what the blockchain actually is. After that, we're going to talk about exploits. Basically, the way you might take advantage of a blockchain and turn it to your own ends essentially. And then finally, we're going to talk about the commercial projects and the ones we think might be the most viable. Now, time to introduce the show. This is Random Talkers. The voice you hear right now is Adam. The other voice is Matt. And this is a program where we discuss how technology is shaping the future for better and worse. We are available on YouTube or wherever you get your podcasts, really. And we'd love to hear from you, so make sure to leave a comment. Yeah, unfortunately, Adam, I don't believe the show is available on the blockchain yet, but we are absolutely working on that. Now, let's talk through how the blockchain works. So at the very highest level, the blockchain is simply a record keeping device. It's a ledger, and it's a way that we can verify and record transactions between different parties. Right. When I was kind of reading this part, it doesn't sound especially impressive. If you think back about the history of civilizations, we've been keeping ledges for millennia essentially, you know, keeping track of how much grain we have in our silos. This isn't really a new concept, the idea of recording transactions or ownership. What makes a blockchain cool? What makes a blockchain special? You know, why people are so excited about the blockchain is the idea that you can now have a ledger of transactions that doesn't require a central authority to be kept and to be verified. Instead, you can basically do this all through a network, which in the case of a blockchain is really a network of computers who are kind of working together through a system of rules and mechanisms that we'll get into a little bit, to basically verify the transactions that are being kept in the ledger and actually get rewarded for basically maintaining the blockchain and growing the blockchain. Yeah, it should be said this network of distributed sharing is not new at all. In fact, one of the first applications that saw widespread use would be Napster. So Napster was a peer-to-peer file sharing software that allowed you to share potentially copyrighted music with your friends. And how this worked is you would provide one file to be shared, someone else would download it, and then the availability of that file could grow exponentially as everyone on the network obtained a copy and were able to share pieces of that file with someone else. But there are some differences between Napster, say, in the blockchain. You know, beyond the fact that Napster was sort of shut down by the government. One of them is that the blockchain is really about kind of keeping track of ownership rather than, say, doing something like file sharing. And the way the blockchain keeps track of ownership of items is through basically just locking a transaction history. So let's say, you know, we have a Bitcoin on the blockchain and we want to know who owns what. Well, by looking at the history of the transactions that are recorded in this ledger, we can basically say that, you know, I transferred, say, five Bitcoin to Matt two weeks ago. Matt then transferred two Bitcoin to someone else a week ago. And from that, you can basically infer Matt's ownership of Bitcoin by looking at the transactions that have kind of flown into him versus the ones that he's given away to other people. Yeah, you're absolutely right, Adam. It is not simply a inventory of who owns what at a given point in time, but a full transaction history of everything that has happened. And because of this, you can reconstruct from that history who should be owning what. Now, some of our listeners may be wondering, how is this different than a database? And to be really clear, one of the things that database would require here would be a central authority. There would have to be some group that owned and maintained this history for this to work. However, the really cool part about the blockchain is that there's no central authority. So the way this works is that all of these transactions are being stored as we've talked about and to unlock the transactions or rather to unlock the ability to write a new transaction, you have to solve a math puzzle. Yes, who wouldn't be excited about doing math puzzles all day? And now we're kind of getting into the stage of talking about the blockchain where we're getting into mining. I'm sure you've heard about this, you know, the amazing power consumption of Bitcoin in the blockchain. And the reason there's so much power being consumed is because all the nodes in the network are working on these very difficult math problems. Let's say on a typical day, you know, in a network, there's a lot of transactions that we want to store in our ledger. Let's say we have a busy marketplace and a lot of commerce is going on. To store these transactions, we need to create a new block on the blockchain. The blockchain is composed of blocks, which are essentially sequentially ordered. You can go from block A to block B to block C back in time and see all these transactions that are recorded on these blocks. You know, a block might say contain a day's worth of transactions. When we're trying to record this day's worth of transactions, in order to have the right to do so, a node has to solve a very difficult math problem. The reason we have this very difficult math problem is to stop fraudulent transactions from being written out extremely quickly. The idea is that it slows the process down and that is very much intentional. When one of the nodes in the network manages to solve a math problem, they are given the right to write out a block with a bunch of transaction data in it, and they're rewarded for doing so by earning tokens or, you know, Bitcoin, as most people would really think of it. And once they've done so, you know, the other nodes are able to actually check their work. If the work is correct, the reward is given out, the block is written, and we've recorded, say, another day's worth of transactions in our blockchain ledger that will now be there forever and be added onto in future days. Right. So these nodes are competing to see who will be able to write the authoritative version of the transaction history the fastest and the first one to finish wins. Now you may be wondering, how do we verify that these transactions are correct? And this is where cryptography comes in. So without this, I would easily be able to say that all of Adam's transactions should have gone to me and I'll steal all of his cryptocurrency. But unfortunately, I can't do that. And the reason is again, I'm using this version of cryptography, which is encrypting information on both ends. So where is a public key and a private key? And the way these work in concert is basically we both can decrypt a shared message, but I can verify that Adam's encryption indeed came from Adam. And he's the only one who can encrypt his own transaction history because the keys would not work together if it was someone else who tried to write that transaction. Yes. And I think the key thing that I kind of took away, no pun intended, from this section is that the private key is of absolute importance.  And the entire security of the system from an individual user's point of view depends on their private key being kept secure and definitely not forgetting what your private key is too. Now, one slight issue of a distributed system that we haven't really got to yet is that the messages of a node descending between each other can arrive out of order or maybe not arrive at all, you could have bad actors. And because of this, you could end up with several different versions of the blockchain being written at one time. If we think about the blockchain as kind of a tree, we could have branches whereby one block has one particular set of transactions and another might have a slightly different history, perhaps, you know, they've been misreported or there's been some sort of mistake along the way. And in order to kind of have your authoritative ledger of transactions over time, you need to find a way to basically reconcile these differences and come up with the one true blockchain. So one of the challenges here is we have to decide which version of the blockchain is true. And the way that we can do this in a network setting is through distributed consensus. The idea being that if most of the nodes in the network agree that something has happened, then it indeed is true and has happened. And one of the ways we can look at what trees or what branches of these trees seem to be true is through the compute power needed to calculate them. So a really quick shortcut we use is by saying if a particular branch requires more compute power, it is indeed longer. It has more transaction history. And therefore it is the most complete version of the blockchain. And because of this, it becomes very difficult to defraud the blockchain. Now it's not impossible if you had a large number of nodes out there who were agreeing that something that was false was indeed true, then it could happen. But the reality is this is very costly because of course as the blockchain grows, you have to calculate farther and farther back. And so in general, we would not expect these attacks to occur. Right. So like you said, the blockchain isn't unbeatable, but it's very, very difficult to beat it. The blockchain generally relies on something that's kind of known as the honest majority. And if you can see that we had enough compute power to sort of overwhelm that, you could record fraudulent transactions, but in a widely dispersed and really powerful blockchain network, this is going to quickly become very difficult and very expensive to do. Now, we congratulate you for listening this far in the episode. You're basically a certified blockchain expert at this point, you're ready to bring out your own ICO and cash in. And to kind of recap the general concepts we really want to kind of take away, all the blockchain is really at its heart is a ledger of transactions. We often think of these transactions as being Bitcoin transactions, but, you know, it doesn't have to be that way. It could be transferring, you know, say, whole ownership records in a particular state. It could be all kinds of things that are being recorded in this blockchain, but all you really have to know is that it's distributed, it's verifiable, we use cryptography to make sure the transactions are correct. And as public, anyone can read these transactions on the blockchain. It's part of what makes it secure and allows us to record from without needing a central authority to do so. So you have to say, Adam, so far the blockchain feels pretty unbeatable. You can record any transaction in this system in a distributed manner, and there's no honorous central authority to get in your way. So for example, it could be something so trivial as what you've had for breakfast for the entire year or something very serious with lots of real world value, like a financial transaction. Now there are some negatives to the blockchain as well, or some potential vulnerability, shall we say. And the first is one we've touched on earlier, the idea of this 51% attack or really this attack on the ability to reach a consensus. So what does this mean? Well, if 51% of the nodes of a distributed network agree on something to be true, that is going to be the authoritative record. It doesn't mean that it's necessarily true, it just means if the majority agrees on it, it becomes the truth. And so that opens us up to potential vulnerability whereby if we had a supercomputer, we could have the supercomputer solve lots of these blocks and come to a conclusion that represented 51% of the system, which was indeed false. Yeah, I think a lot of the fraud on the blockchain is really about kind of a computing arms race, if you will. Whereby, you know, you're computing to solve the math problems that are going to let you write the next block, knowing that whoever basically constructs the longest chain in the blockchain, that chain is going to be given precedence and kind of seen as the authoritative version of the chain. And so if you can summon enough compute power to somehow instill your fraudulent transactions into the blockchain forever, well, now you've kind of won the fraud has succeeded. And if you're able to do that by spending less than you're able to gain from transactions, well, now you have a significant business opportunity. There are other ways, though, to kind of reach consensus. It doesn't always have to be about who has done the most work and created the longest chain that way. Some systems, for example, could use to say which nodes have the most tokens accumulated. So like we kind of mentioned earlier, once you've created a new block, you've done the math problems to create the block, you're rewarded with tokens, which are bitcoins in the most common example. And you could say that the nodes you have the most tokens are kind of the most experienced nodes are the earliest nodes are likely to be good nodes and they should basically have more say into what kind of the authoritative version of the blockchain is. And so, you know, for some principles, you could say that they should be given greater voting rights and that's how you should be able to reach consensus. So it doesn't necessarily always have to be about proof of work in order to decide what's your authoritative version. Yeah, and we should mention one of the reasons today that a 51 percent attack is relatively rare. I don't know of any major instances of this is mostly because it takes a lot of energy. This is using real world resources to compute these long chains. So for example, you may have to spend a hundred thousand dollars in energy or even opportunity cost to get ten thousand dollars stolen. So it really doesn't work out in the math today, but it brings up the second point we want to talk about, which is that the blockchain and cryptocurrencies are really eating up lots and lots of energy today. I think there's been reports out there that somehow this represents the energy consumption of entire countries in Europe at this point. And really, you know, there's this other side which says this is not something that is really generating any value. It's just all of these computers working tirelessly, burning up actual coal, admitting, you know, real world carbon into the atmosphere simply to solve math problems. Right. This is kind of a trade off of using a distributed system versus a centralized authority for your ledger. You know, if you are in a situation where the parties involved in transactions are very trustworthy, you may maybe you're just creating something within a particular company, for example. Well, you don't necessarily need this blockchain because it's going to be taking an awful lot of energy that could be better used elsewhere. And so the blockchain is really in some ways for sort of niche cases where you have a large number of untrustworthy parties, a large number of transactions that are not necessarily easy verified. And then there's value in working all these math problems, you know, making it very, very difficult to record transactions. But if you don't have that, you know, maybe you shouldn't use a blockchain. Now, one of the other issues that also comes up is the idea of the dependence of the blockchain on private keys. We kind of mentioned that private keys are necessary as part of cryptography to essentially verify the transactions are going into the blockchain. And the issue you have is that if you lose your private key or your private key is stolen, you are in major, major trouble. And for a lot of kind of, you know, non-technical people or people who just kind of introduced to a blockchain, it's kind of a scary proposition to be so dependent on one particular thing in terms of security. Yeah, you've seen some rather ridiculous news stories lately of people who have gone to hypnotists trying to remember the key or the password to get their private key back so they can retrieve all of their lost Bitcoin from, you know, 2011 or whatever it may be, which is now obviously worth lots of money. And it's a great point, which is that, you know, today we think about how many people have their, you know, air quotes, accounts hacked, which is simply they've, you know, been a little bit lax around their security. And it makes you wonder like how viable is this sort of private key architecture where we expect people to keep these things secure. And the other thing, you know, is inherent to the blockchain is that once a transaction has been recorded, it's very difficult, if not impossible to change, meaning if someone's key is stolen and their money is transferred away, you can't simply reverse that transaction out. And that's kind of the downside to not having a central authority. There is no FDIC to step in on your behalf and, you know, take care of things. So, you know, really this is kind of the flip side to the situation whereby if we get rid of a central authority, yes, we do get some, you know, nice reduction in fees, but there is no overseer to protect the system. And even in other instances where, you know, you can imagine something like the stock market trying to use a blockchain. Well, in that case, let's think about the most recent flash crash, which had to have the transactions reversed in a blockchain world that simply would not be possible. And I think the final thing we should talk about, Adam, is this idea that the blockchain is really not built for speed. It is, it is slow and it is slow on purpose. Yes, if worrying about private keys was sort of a security concern, I would say the slowness of a blockchain is more of a convenience concern. In the, if you are trying to verify your transaction, record your transaction in this blockchain ledger, you might be waiting a while for it to get processed, you know, the math problems have to be solved in order for the next block to be written of the blockchain and for your transaction to hopefully be recorded in that block. And if, for example, your transaction is recorded in a branch that does not become the kind of true branch of a blockchain, prove a distributed consensus system, you might have to wait a while after that to get your transaction finally recorded. So from the point of view of convenience, you know, the blockchain is slow. It is not being able to just, you know, transfer money between, you know, checking accounts or using Venmo or something like that. Yeah, we should say, though, that these are all solvable issues. I mean, we've given you some of the solutions. Now, there are other ones that become slightly more difficult to deal with. For example, if we talked about how could we start protecting private keys? Well, perhaps you could buy insurance or something like this to protect your transactions. But of course, who would you buy that insurance from but a central authority, which in many ways defeats the purpose of this system in the first place. That said, I think both Adam and I would agree that, you know, these things can be solved. It's just a matter of time before we can get some good solutions going for this. But we should also talk now on the other side about what the blockchain is good for. I want to be really clear and the author is as well that the blockchain is, you know, really just a technology which can apply to lots of different things that require that transaction ledger. We usually think of the blockchain as cryptocurrency. But again, that is simply one application, albeit the most obvious. Yes, it's a ledger that can record anything you want. And that doesn't have to necessarily be financial of a financial sort of the most obvious application. In particular, I think kind of a quintessential example of a blockchain use case is cross country money transfers. You want to send money, say from India to the United States or anywhere across the world. And you don't right now have a particularly easy, cheap, you know, affordable, quick way of doing so. But if you have Bitcoin and you're able to use the blockchain to verify transactions, you can essentially transfer Bitcoin to anyone who's using that blockchain. And you don't have the sort of restrictions that we have right now of the currency transfers. So one of the reasons that finance is so ripe for this kind of disruption is exactly what you said, Adam, which is to transfer money from India to the United States, it's going to hit a untold number of different financial institutions and banks, maybe let's say five in total. And all of these are going to collect a small fee. Well, by having a direct person to person transfer and then paying a small fee to the blockchain to do this transfer, you can save a lot of money. So there's all kinds of industries out there that require all these little fees along the way. And I think all of these are a potential target for blockchain disruption. Yeah, I mean, the author kind of talks about this in the book, Daniel Drescher, when he talks about disintermediation as being kind of one of the key benefits of the blockchain and that essentially solves trust problems that have traditionally been solved by using middlemen.  Traditionally, it would be difficult to do that and kind of a peer to peer way without some kind of organizing framework, organizing middleman to basically coordinate these transactions, you know, write up the agreements, you know, make sure everything works correctly. But with the blockchain, you could conceivably transfer the money in a verifiable way, whereby the conditions of a transfer are sort of laid out on the blockchain for everyone to see and understand. And for that reason, you wouldn't necessarily need a middleman, which I think has to be somewhat concerning in the long run for a lot of kind of financial services type companies. And, you know, another example of this kind of in the realm of finance is also just to talk about insurance, whereby, you know, insurance is a pretty simple concept where you're just looking to pull risk. And conceivably, all of this could be handled on the blockchain without needing, you know, the overhead of a massive insurance company because people could simply specify, you know, the terms of the insurance, the transfers required of the insurance, the payouts that are incurred if there is, you know, an event that requires them. And all this wouldn't necessarily need a mega corporation to handle. Although again, this is kind of a speculative application that we haven't really arrived at yet. So finance is the most obvious application of the blockchain today. But there's actually another technology that I personally find even more compelling. And this is the idea of a smart contract. So for those of you who may have been following crypto currencies, you will probably be well aware that the currency Ethereum is kind of built around this idea of a smart contract. In fact, you can do, you know, smart contracts in Ethereum today. And so what is a smart contract? Well, a smart contract is the idea that we could have a transaction that is set up in the system by some code and executes automatically. And so this contract can be over absolutely anything. It could be over the transfer of property. It could be over a simple bet you were placing and really just allows a ton of flexibility in terms of executing a transaction. Now that said, it doesn't get you out of the part of contracts that most people hate, which is the negotiation. So you still have to have this contract set up in advance. But the cool part is it kind of removes all the middleman anyone sees ever bought a house knows that, you know, you have untold number of lawyers and different mortgage brokers and whatnot in the room at the time. And this kind of says you don't need that. You can just simply have this contract that's backed by Ethereum or other cryptocurrency that's out there and it'll execute automatically. No need for all that overhead. Yes, smart contracts are really a crucial term to have in your kind of blockchain buzzword vocabulary. You know, you want to make sure you're dropping out whatever you're talking about the blockchain. And I do think that interesting in the sense that they kind of broaden the definition of what is a transaction on this blockchain ledger we've been describing.  It can't actually be something more complex like you were talking about that, you know, when you're buying a home, you know, dealing with a mortgage that kind of thing.  They're still very much dependent in many cases on say a legal entity to judge the validity of contracts are occurring, you know, in the real world and determining things that may not be apparently obvious to, you know, the blockchain itself. And so for that reason, I think smart contracts are very interesting, but it's unclear to me exactly how much of an application they're going to have in the future. Yeah, I think you could argue that the term contract is a little bit deceiving. In fact, they can be more modular in that they're almost just smart functions, if you will. One of the interesting ideas here as well is that these contracts can be, you know, open of course, they're on the blockchain, anyone can see them. So perhaps you can have three way and four way transactions made today that wouldn't be possible because you would need to get so many different parties involved. Well, the blockchain can solve this all together as one network problem. Absolutely. And when we kind of think about other applications of the blockchain, you start to also get into kind of the corporate realm, I would say. And this is the point where I think we should sort of make the distinction between the different levels of access available to people in the blockchain or nodes in the blockchain, users of the blockchain. Because the kind of stereotypical traditional, the most sort of commonly discussed blockchain is really one of, say, four types of blockchain. And it's a public permissionless blockchain. And what that means is that anyone who joins the network as a node can first of all read the transactions of the blockchain. They can look and they can say, you know, they can look at the blockchain history and they can see that say, you know, Adam transferred five Bitcoin to Matt back in the day before they became really valuable and he's regretting that right now. And they can also, for example, write to the blockchain. They can complete these math puzzles that we've talked about in order to give you the right to to write the next block and to claim the reward for doing so. But it doesn't necessarily have to be that way. Because if it is, you know, you run into a lot of privacy concerns of the blockchain. If you're thinking about a blockchain in a corporate sense, you don't necessarily want the entire world to be able to see everything that is written in this ledger. And for that reason, there are actually blockchains whereby nodes are restricted in terms of who can write to a blockchain and who can read from the blockchain. So you have public versus private blockchains which are based on read access. And you have permission versus permission less blockchains which are based on on write access. And for that reason, when you can combine these, it's two by two, you actually end up with these four different combinations of blockchain that can be used. And for a lot of the private kind of corporate applications, you're looking at these closed off blockchains as perhaps being a little bit more appropriate. So I'm going to have to pose the question that all the blockchain critics out there say, which is, isn't a private blockchain just simply an inefficient database? It might be, but I don't think you're going to get to the top of hacker news by discussing your new database. You know, you kind of have to have that blockchain component. I get what people are saying with that, that it's basically a database. I can also see instances where you would have a blockchain that is a little bit different. One example, for instance, is being brought up right now is the use cases of blockchain within the shipping industry whereby different shipping companies could essentially collaborate on a blockchain that is used to track the shipment of freight across the world, be it by boat, by plane, truck, what have you. And a blockchain system could be really good for verifying these types of transactions. And in this situation, you would want a blockchain that was closed off to the participants within the shipping industry as in only they can read and write on it versus everyone else being able to use it. And so that, I think, is a collaborative application of the blockchain where you do have these trust issues, if you have these different shipping companies who are needing to collaborate together. But you also want some element of privacy in the only select group who are actually able to use this blockchain. Yeah, I think one of the really strong benefits is this idea that you can incentivize some sort of network effect by having a token out there that different participants can interact with. So for example, one of the big things I was thinking about lately is this idea of last mile delivery. So in the case of UPS, they know that really one of their highest costs is getting that package from the distribution center to your house. So one easy application of the blockchain would be, well, instead of having UPS or FedEx do this delivery, we'll simply have a network out there where people can say that they'll deliver this and perhaps maybe they live by the distribution center or perhaps they live by the final destination of the package and they'll simply pick it up from the blockchain, record it in the transaction and receive some small payment in the form of tokens from UPS for doing this and it's a net win for all participants involved. I think the idea of tokens as incentivizing network effects is really crucial on this what a lot of people we talk to are enthusiastic about when it comes to the future of Bitcoin and the blockchain, essentially. This idea that if you're starting a product or a platform that depends on network effects, you have a classic issue of how on earth do I get people to buy into this platform when no one's using it and a lot of the value is derived from everyone using it and one way to get around this traditionally has been by pouring billions of venture capital money into it. If you look like PayPal, for example, they basically paid people to use their service in order to try and build this network effect. But another way to do it would be to reward people through earning tokens that only really become valuable once the platform has reached a critical mass and people actually believe in the tokens and if you give out more tokens to people who are kind of working on the blockchain or platform earlier, now you can start to see how this whole system might be a really good way to build the network effects but a lot of internet companies really need. So with that said, Adam, I was just curious, I mentioned shipping and logistics. Do you see any of the current incumbent companies, particularly those in the tech space that you would say are vulnerable to blockchain disruption? I think it's an interesting question and one that I do not have a great answer for. When I think about kind of what the blockchain is good for, it's basically establishing trust in a marketplace where traditionally you needed a strong centralized authority and it's for establishing trust in a situation where maybe you have a power of network effects involved. And so if you can look at an industry where maybe the incumbent is extremely unpopular but they still have kind of a monopoly and it's very trust based, well then you could see an area for disruption. So Uber is an obvious one, for example, right sharing, those kind of transactions and information sharing could be done through smart contracts on a blockchain. I would also say something like the credit reporting industry. Companies like Experian and Equifax who A, are not very popular, B are extremely powerful, could potentially be supported if you could just put, you know, the information that's required to create your credit report on the blockchain and have it be verified that way. Well then do you really need this kind of central power that's collecting all this information and monetizing it from you? Matt, do you think we're going to kind of see successful commercial applications in a blockchain arriving anytime soon, say in the next couple of years or do you think this is something where 10 years from now it might be seen as more of a transformative technology? Yeah, I personally think we're closer to something like 10 years away than we are in the next couple of years. I do think that this transformative company probably starts in the next couple of years. It's just going to have somewhat of a, you know, long ramp cycle to get there. I see this as the kind of thing which you can, you know, if you can look at a problem and say, if we could just get everyone on board to doing this thing tomorrow, it would be great for everyone. Well, the cool thing about the blockchain and we mentioned in the idea of, you know, tokenizing this network effect or using the token to create this network effect is that you can kind of do that with the blockchain. You can sort of flip a switch. And, you know, if people are properly aligned and believe in the particular token that is being exchanged, you can create this tomorrow. In the example of transportation, one of the reasons I say transportation as potentially being a industry that gets disrupted is that this is, you know, this has been an opportunity for years, but you have a immense amount of capital that is required to start any of these companies. Do you have to be able to expand large portions of not only the US, maybe even the entire globe and... Yeah, you need all those ridiculous, expensive data scientists on the payroll, you know, to keep your business going. Exactly, right?  Yeah, all these kinds of companies that are trying to kind of mobilize people to complete small tasks, you know, like tasks, grab it, what have you. You know, they have a very difficult time getting off a ground, gaining traction because you don't have that level of ownership that the early adopters would really want to be invested in the network. One thing I would say, you know, in response to kind of our blue sky thinking on blockchain and, you know, all these kind of grand visions of what the blockchain could become is that incumbents are often very good at holding on to what they have. I think if a blockchain really became a threat to a monopolist, you know, like a credit card company or credit reporting agency, you would see them kind of pursue a lot of legal avenues, for example, to kind of hold on to their power. And, you know, even if you look at the original example of the peer-to-peer network we brought up earlier of Napster, I mean, that was one where the incumbents really mobilized to kind of protect themselves. And, you know, even though they're not as profitable, perhaps as they used to be, the record companies are still around. You know, they're still making money. They're still kind of adding value by nurturing artists, helping them with touring, merchandising, what have you in the real world. And it's been difficult for this kind of peer-to-peer vision to display some completely. And I think it'll be interesting to see which monopolists are able to kind of hold on to their power as a blockchain grows versus those that are unable to deal with kind of a changing tide and actually get disrupted completely. Yeah, maybe with all these folks out there reading Clayton Christensen books, we are now aware that disruption can come from below and perhaps they will be able to step in front of the impending wave of blockchain technology that could potentially put them out of business. Yes, we're gonna record two takes. One where I call blockchain a sustaining technology. One where I call it a disruptive technology. And I will substitute in the appropriate take in the years to come once it becomes evidence which one is which. In any case, we hope you have enjoyed our discussion of the blockchain. Make sure to chime in in the comments if you kind of have any views on the future of blockchain, any applications we didn't think of, anything we really missed in the discussion, we'd love to hear from you. But this has been Random Talkers. Thank you very much for listening and we'll see you next time.


I'm a twenty-year-old university student, I'm a twenty-year-old university student describing the little life of truth, involvement, fulfillment. How should I, in the people of my age, balance the inner path with the outer world, be it going to med school, getting a professional career or spending all the time at the ashram? See, all of us have to live in this universe. No choice about it right now. But university is a choice, and that's why you're asking this question. How much time? Education is of value to do certain things. But what should we be doing as individual human beings, as a generation of people? What should we be doing in our lives? What I would say is, as a young man, I want to open your eyes and look at the world. Right now, please see what is the most needed thing in the world right now. You don't do some fanciful thing that you like to do. You must do what's most needed, isn't it? Isn't it so? If you get carried away by situations, people become like this, it's useful but it is not the basic thing. Today you saw a train burning. So you want to become a firefighter. Tomorrow you saw something, you want to become that. In reaction, in emotional reaction, you choose to become something, it could be useful on some level. But now, when most young people cannot think, you're thinking, what should I do with my life? When such a thought has come, I would say spend little more time on it. Not being influenced by anybody or anything. Simply look at it, what is it that the humanity needs most? What is it that the world needs most today? I want you to recognize that. The only thing that needs to be fixed on this planet is human beings. Everything else is fine, isn't it so? I would say all young people, not just you, must take a break from what you're doing. Just caught up.  It's dangerous, you know.  Yes?  And today knowledge has no use, because whatever a PhD holder knows, a high school kid can open the internet and talk the same language. You can't even look smart anymore with what you collected, isn't it? Because just about anybody will talk these things, because it's all over the place. So are you preparing for a university or the universe? That's where you have to live, unless you want to become an academic. I'm not saying these things are wrong, but human beings, sensible human beings, must invest their life towards what is needed most, isn't it? Not some fanciful thing that I want to do or you want to do. You can do whatever, joyfully or miserably, isn't it?  Everybody, when they got their first job, what a beautiful day it was. You went to this mangy little office, sat there and wow! How it felt, but after a few years sitting behind the same table, it's taking your life. The same job, the same marriage, the same situations, they're taking your life. At one day they look like heaven, after some time it looks like hell, isn't it? Not because there's something wrong with those jobs, simply because you're doing it for the wrong reason. You're just doing it for the wrong reasons, that's all. Without you thinking, I would say take a few weeks off. We're willing to give you the space, just stay uninfluenced by anybody, just look at it. There are many things you will want to do right now because of immediate compulsions. You're broke right now, you think the first thing is to find a job or some other compulsion within you, you think the first thing is to do this. Beside your compulsion, suppose you had none of these compulsions, what would you like to do with life? That's what you should do. You should not decide your life and the course of your life based on immediate compulsions.  You do that. There are many others who would like to be you. Oh, I wish I was twenty and I wish I could think what to do at that time I did something. There are any number of people here.