There were a couple of decisions handed down by the Supreme Court this morning and I want to kind of go over these Because these are are pretty big. Well, this one in particular. It doesn't have Like the weight that I Suspected it would and many people thought that it would it's kind of a smaller decision, but overall it's still Rubs me the wrong way. We're also going to talk about the Affordable Care Act Which survived another challenge now with the 6-3 majority if Trump was still president and had Twitter he'd be screaming at the justices who were conservative that favored The ACA Let's look at this here. So this is from Ian Millheiser So he writes Fulton the city of Philadelphia a case involving a Catholic group that objects to placing foster children with same-sex couples Was widely expected to be a sweeping victory for the religious right and a correspondingly significant defeat for LGBTQ rights Instead the court's opinion dodges nearly all of the important issues raised by the case right here. I want to stop and Just you know dissect this a little bit. I think that the court dodged all of the really big questions because They know that by now the ship on gay rights and equality it's sailed So if you undo LGBTQ plus rights, that's going to be incredibly unpopular So they're just kind of like side stepping it. They're pivoting so that way, you know, they're not very Controversial there's not much precedent that they're setting here. They're just trying to like swap this away And it's good in the sense that they didn't do the wrong thing But it is it's cowardly if you follow the Constitution and precedent That's been set by previous cases. I Mean, it's these questions aren't very difficult. It's not So it's still a small win for religious conservatives and a similarly small loss for the LGBTQ plus community in Philadelphia But the court's decision is unlikely to have many implications outside of the city And it hits pause on a fight to overrule a landmark Supreme Court decision from over three decades ago Most likely because as justice Amy Coney Barrett notes in a concurring opinion Several of the justices aren't sure what to do next if that decision is overruled Fulton involves Philadelphia's process for assigning children to foster homes the state contracts with more than 20 private groups to identify Suitable foster parents for these children until fairly recently one of these groups was Catholic social services in 2018 however the Philadelphia Inquirer revealed that CSS refuses to place foster children with same-sex couples After conducting an investigation the city decided to not renew its contract with CSS Claiming that the organization violated both the city ordinance banning discrimination and the terms of the contract itself Now this right here the city made the right decision because they are specifically Discriminating on the basis of sexual orientation now discrimination just generally speaking in the process of child care in the process of adoption It's not Uncommon like you're going to discriminate you want people who are Qualified to take care of children you want people who have the income needed to take care and support a child But when it comes to sexual orientation, that's not a factor, right? so The fact that the city saw this as discrimination and ended the contract with CSS, that's the right decision But the court says actually no, that's not the right decision So they struck down the city's or you know a decision right here while Upholding, you know the ability of cities to actually not contract with bigoted organizations Okay, so moving on CSS sued claiming that it has a constitutional right to receive this government contract and To refuse to place children with same-sex couples. In other words, they want to be able to discriminate Because that refusal is rooted in CSS as religious beliefs religion is not a justification legal or morally to be discriminatory Fulton in other words teed up a similar issue to the one that the court largely avoided three years ago In masterpiece cake shop the Colorado Civil Rights Commission Whether individuals or organizations with religious objections to homosexuality have a constitutional right to discriminate against gay lesbian or bisexual Individuals just like look at the wording here whether or not You have a constitutional right to discriminate. I mean just this wording here This isn't a diss to the author, but like It's absurd that this is what was sought They wanted the right to discriminate No, we don't have to tolerate intolerance and Discrimination on the basis of sexual orientation is illegal It violates the equal protection clause of the Constitution because you can't discriminate against people Who are similarly similarly situated on the basis of an arbitrary characteristic? So you can discriminate against me if I choose to come into your establishment Without a shirt on you could say no no shoes. No shirt. No service. That's fine But if you're discriminating against me on the basis of an immutable characteristic if you're discriminating against me because I am gay That is a different thing than saying you can't come in here if you're not wearing shoes. That's basically what it is so Yeah freedom of religion assumes freedom from religion as well, right? That's that's exactly it So the plaintiffs in Fulton moreover also asked the Supreme Court to overrule its seminal decision in Employment Division V Smith which held that religious objectors must follow neutral laws of general applicability Under Smith a religious objector typically is bound by state or local long Local laws so long as it applies with equal force to non-religious actors So if secular organizations are forbidden from discriminating the same rule will generally generally apply to religious Organizations, but neither of these important questions was resolved in Fulton while Justice Samuel Alito Alito penned a lengthy opinion Calling for Smith to be overruled that opinion was joined by only justices Clarence Thomas and Neil Gorsuch both conservative justices the remainder of the court joined a much narrower opinion majority opinion by Chief Justice John Roberts Which rules in favor of CSS but on grounds that are unlikely to have many implications for future cases So very very narrow. It's essentially a cop-out But at the same time I'm a little bit relieved that it is only a cop-out and they're not striking down more LGBTQ plus rights So Robert's majority opinion is exceedingly narrow Philadelphia cited two reasons for ending its relationship with CSS it claimed one that CSS violated both an anti-discrimination Ordinance and a provision of CSS contract with the city Roberts disposes of the first of these two reasons by denying that the anti-discrimination ordinance applies to this case at all That ordinance forbids denying or interfering with the public accommodations Opportunities of an individual or otherwise discriminating against that individual because of a variety of characteristics including sexual orientation Yet Roberts opinion argues that the words public accommodations do not include foster care Certification as a foster parent is not really readily accessible to the public He argues and it involves a customized and selective assessment that bears little resemblance to staying in a hotel eating at a restaurant or riding a bus again What they're basing their discrimination on It's immutable characteristics sexual orientation. This is an arbitrary characteristic They're not discriminating against individuals who have a low income They don't meet this income threshold to sufficiently support a child. They're not saying, you know what?  And I believe that this decision here was 9-0. I want to say This is the actual PDF of the file. See this is why we read summaries kids because if you if you read all of this I mean, this is a short book, right? But really the core here is the The majority opinion here. Yeah, we're not we're not gonna read this. I believe it was 9-0. I could be wrong about that But either way, um, it's deeply deeply Discriminatory and unconstitutional. Yeah, it was 9-0. Seabass confirms that. Yeah, so even the liberal justices on this Yeah, they sided with Discrimination although like the the precedent here is very narrow


My name is Mark Lawrence and next month. I'll assume the role of director of the LBJ presidential library. I can't wait to get Thank you so much. I can't wait to get started in that role And it's a real treat tonight to jump the gun a little bit by taking part in tonight's festivities Before I introduce our guest of honor I'd like to recognize our friends programming sponsors, St. David's health care and the moody foundation Thank you so much for your generous support Upcoming friends programs will feature former US senator and NBA star Bill Bradley on February 11th and Ford Foundation president Darren Walker on March 5th Among the many great things about stepping into the Directorship of this institution is the opportunity to continue a long tradition of bringing innovative exciting and Culturally rich exhibitions to the Austin community Tonight's event celebrates our current special exhibit Motown the sound of young America Curated by the Grammy Museum the exhibit is the first to embrace all facets music culture and politics of one of the most Significant artistic and cultural departures of the 1960s Motown a blend of gospel blues and pop began in Detroit in the early 60s and quickly became the sound of young America Crashing the American pop charts and challenging the British invasion led by the Beatles the visionary Motown The visionary of Motown Barry Gordon jr. A former prize fighter and songwriter Believed that talent could be found on nearly every Detroit street corner and he succeeded in bringing the iconic sound Into the mainstream it's a sound that continues to influence music and culture around the world to this very day One of Motown's top performers the Supremes Remain the number one female recording group of all time according to billboard magazine Tonight we are enormously privileged to have as our special guest a founding member of the Supremes Mary Wilson Who achieved an unprecedented? 12 number one hits Including where did our love go baby love stop in the name of love and back in my arms again The Supremes made history as the first African-American artists on the Ed Sullivan show and their successes helped change racial perceptions throughout the country Mary went on to become a best-selling author motivational speaker business woman and former u.s. Cultural ambassador her new book supreme glamour which some of you have seen Documents not only the journey of the Supremes from their founding in Detroit in 1959 to their disco hits of the 1970s But also their glamorous coordinated clothing ensembles that became one of their signatures As moderator this evening we were scheduled to have lbj foundation ceo mark up to grove with us But unfortunately he came down with a bad case of laryngitis and extends his apologies Very happily however our good friend Judy maggio graciously agreed to do the honors Judy maggio as many of you will know is a very prominent local journalist now serving as Editorial director for the austin pbs station k l r u She leads decibel a multi-platform news initiative doing in-depth reporting on key community issues in central texas Judy is a gifted journalist and we're really thrilled that she could join us. Thank you so much to Judy After the program Please plan to join us for a holiday reception in the great hall upstairs The motown exhibit will be open and you can pick up a copy of mary's books and other holiday gifts in the store As well as enjoying an amazing array of motown themed hors d'oeuvres. I'm very curious to see what that involves This fall universal music group and showtime released a feature length documentary To mark the 60th anniversary of the founding of motown records I invite you to watch a short clip now to set the stage for tonight's conversation Ladies and gentlemen, please join me in welcoming mary wilson and judy maggio to the stage She's coming If she doesn't make it i'll just sing for y'all, okay? Judy judy judy mary mary mary I am so thrilled that mark ought to grow up lost his voice Well, I I told him that I would make him a hot toddy, you know to help that voice come We've got a hot toddy for you mark But thank you for trusting me for sitting in this beloved seat and thank you so much for sharing your evening with us Thank you. Thank you.  Well, you know, but I think that probably everyone here Saw us on the ad celebrate shows and and the dean martin show and the sunny and share show Hullabaloo shindig and we and we always danced We always dance so that's why I tell everyone is this it wasn't new for me to dance Because we always we had the best choreographer in the world charlie atkins who did the Stop in the name of People you break my heart think it over But I I was someone sent me a Sort of videos I guess And and I was able to see all of the different shows that we did we florence dyne And I did on this at salamence show and shindig and hullabaloo and we were always doing You know those standard dances. I mean, that's what we did So when I got on dance with the stars Even though I had been 50 some years Earlier, uh, it wasn't it was it was still wonderful to be able to do all those different dances And as most people know, I was one of the first people to be eliminated from the show We won't talk about that. No, we won't talk. No, we're gonna talk about it And the reason why I say that is that, you know, it's one of those things where people say, oh, I just love you But people didn't vote You know So you can love you can love someone but you gotta vote for who you want up there or in there Right So there you go, but I enjoyed it. I I totally had a great time being on the show. I really did I would have liked to have been on a little longer, but I made so many great friends Uh, and and so, you know, now it's almost like the at motown A lot of us grew up together there and whenever we're together it's like, uh, what you call it a family reunion So now dance with the stars. It's like a family reunion. We have a new generation Well, I want to go back to the very beginning and talk about Your start because I don't think a lot of people realized didn't you guys start with four people and you were the primates We started with four and uh, let me see. It was in 1959 And I think we were probably around 13 years old Uh in 1959 and so we started singing As for it's like you said four members four girls We were all from we all lived in detroit michigan And what was really great about the time was I when djs, I know nowadays you don't have radio like we used to have You know a dj could make or break you You know and uh met a couple ladies who said they were from american bandstand in philadelphia Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, and so we were talking about you know, these djs who uh, who used to like they would say They would have dances on the weekend and they would say come on down to the gravestone ballroom because we got johnny mathas and the primates Well, no one knew who we were because we didn't we didn't have any hit records back then You were babies too We were we were only by this time we were like 14 years old and so we would do these record hops and pretty soon we realized that uh We were on shows with people who were recording and making music people We were hearing on the radio and we said what whoa, we've just been doing this for it's a hobby Now maybe we should think about recording. So that's kind of how we got into it It was burst a hobby and then we got hooked into it And so what led you to mo to motel? Yeah, it was probably the fact that we were um, you know just Doing all these shows these were disco shows We were doing all those things and so uh, you know being with people who were actually making music We started I always said we kind of dare to dream And this was at a time i'm going to get a little serious for right now. This was a at a time when black people Uh, didn't really only thing, you know people were daring to do was just to stay alive All right, my aunts and uncles they would talk about these times and so for us when we started singing You know and in thinking about recording This was another kind of dream that we had and Once once we were on the show. I think it was with uh, johnny mathis We went back and we said, you know what maybe we should think about Uh recording music and and that's when we kind of dared to dream. It was an impossible dream But we did it and we got an audition with smoky robinson and the miracles Who diane knew it diane knew smoky from another neighborhood and uh, so she said well I know smoky maybe we can go over there and get another have his group, you know to uh, listen to us and we did that And um, that's how we kind of hooked up with motel because then after that We got an audition with mr. Very gordy and that changed everything that changed not only did it change everything Is who I am today is why i'm standing here today because mr. Very gordy did like us And uh, he signed us, but at first he didn't sign us in fact Really, you know at first he said to us. He says look Why don't you girls go back to high school and and come back after you graduate from school? So we didn't realize that at the time that he really was Probably just a little leery of four girls young teenage girls. We weren't even 16 yet Who uh, he didn't want to be responsible for at the time We just thought maybe he was just kind of oh, they're not good But we knew we were good. This is something about me florence and diane. We actually knew That we were really good And and and I said when I first met diane florence and betty the fourth member I realized that something Something was happening to me in life. It was almost like at the age of 13 I I saw myself Here in front of you. I saw something that I didn't even understand but They kind of they kind of actually Completed me. Let's put it that way. I saw parts in them that I didn't maybe have or know I had And I felt with them it was a complete group And I think that people around the world have felt that when they saw the supreme's it was like one perfect unit We really were one, you know one perfect unit. I think I read you the number one female recording group well I won't get into politics, but you know, it depends on different poles, you know, what poles Politics is like that too. Well, that's what I was implying but anyway So I mean My favorite groups well back then girl groups were really popular and the chantels or charelles, you know, the the linen sisters I mean it was the girl power was out there Um, and then they kind of left Um, and so now some of the groups I think are much better than we are But you know in terms of but in terms of record sales the supreme's in 1964 had their first number one um Selling million selling record and then we had five consecutive number one million selling records in ninth from 1965 And then we had one that wasn't quite a number one, but then we after that one we had another five So we had like 10 10 11 number one million selling records and we gave those those Beatles and rolling stones and all them English boys A run for their money and we were girls Uh, but there I was I should say this while I was talking about the other girl groups There were lots of girl groups the Ronettes, you know the the Dixie cups I mean we were all doing very well, but I think why the supreme's Became we're voted the number one female group of all time was mainly because television Came into play and as we look now it's the same thing I mean if you become a star on television, you are you are a major star Well, I remember working with all these great stars who never made as much money as some of these kids are making today You know in television reality stars and all that stuff back then I mean I used to hang out with sammy davis and And then bob hope I mean all these people and no one ever made the kind of money They're making a day television does can do that for you can change your life back then it was the same thing Because prior to what 63 64 You know television wasn't it wasn't the same thing, but once the variety show started, you know Like I say they had Sullivan There's so many others. I can't even think of the name right now But once that started we the supreme's had I hit records and we we were on every major tv show So we went into the homes of everyone. So I think that that made us Probably not so much better than any other group It was just that we had the exposure From television that the other artists did not have the other field So that's one of the reasons we were voted, you know, the number one female group also We were kind of known not just for the music My book Judy, let me tell you I'm doing my animal item Fashion we were known for the not just the music it was also fashion because Our image was that of glamour and for three little black girls, you know, the back in the 60s That was something it was unheard of, you know, tell us about this book Why the books I know you've written two others in the past What what makes this one special and it other than the fact that it's absolutely visually beautiful Well because of what I'm just saying now about the fashion It's about the glamour that kind of doesn't exist now, you know I remember we bought our first pearl necklaces at Woolworth's And and and our first pictures Were of us wearing these little pearls, you know, because in that's we glamour was it So our our image was our image kind of I won't say surpass the records because probably most Everyone in here knows of all of our records stopping the name of love baby love You can't hear your love you keep it hanging on, you know, everyone knows about the music But the image the imagery that we had was also great I'll give you a great story my brother Roosevelt Who was in the vietnam war and I do have to say that he After he came back he was not really he was never the same But I remember one time he was stationed in Central Domingo, I think it was and we were playing in Miami at the Eden Rock or a Dove Hotel. I'm not sure which one it was And so he came over from Santo Domingo and and and we were we did our show the Supremes and afterwards this beautiful young lady came over the Jewish lady and she says I'm so happy to meet you guys. She says and you know, she says I allow my children and my family to watch you when you're on every every sunday on Ed Sullivan's show So my brother who was a wannabe panther He never got that far. But anyway, so he was there. He says what does she mean?  And so that's kind of what it was all about I know Oprah mentioned that see you and the Supremes on this on the Ed Sullivan show was the first time she Identified Oh, no, I mean That you that you really were a role model for for young black girls watching television that there's someone that looks like me And she's on tv. That's what uh, oh She um whoopie wrote the forward for my book And over to yes, she did and she said The very first time I ever saw the Supremes. I remember thinking Can I ever look like them? I had a black and white television and I remember seeing them on Ed Sullivan's stage So poised and elegant. They were matching Tossled dresses and fly shoes Shoes and um Their faces beat and their hair up in a bouffant except for Flo who had a flip They were three of the most beautiful women I had Ever seen little did I know until much later that the dresses and the shoes were salmon color Who knew we could look so good in salmon? And then they opened their mouths. I've been crying. Ooh, because I'm lonely for you Uh smiles have altered two tears, but tears won't wash away the fears with arms. Oh, okay. Anyway We love it when you sing I was kind of I should have said that but I was reading here With arms swaying like thin grass in a mild summer breeze bodies moving in synchronization These were brown women as they had never ever been seen before on national television The Supremes right there in front of me three different shades of brown Gorgeous stunning and stylish made my head explode Only only who could say something like that, right? Everything about the supreme supreme's all those gowns all those pants shoes and all those capes Gloves furs the makeup the eyelashes the wigs made me believe they were speaking to me I too could be well spoken tall majestic and An emissary of black folks who also came from the projects Whatever they wore reflected the many looks of black folks Including the hair which was everything from an afro to a bob and that did it for me. That's when I knew I was theirs for life They were unapologetic and brave I look back and I wonder if they had any idea that they taught me And a new generation the pride of being black diana mary and flow my heroes whoopee That's beautiful I couldn't you know when I asked her if she would write the forward to the book. I couldn't I could only hope that she would because I knew she was one of those little black girls who Saw the Ed Sullivan Shaw And and and and back then we just we were just doing what using the gift that god gave us You know what I mean? We weren't thinking that people were looking at us We were just trying to be somebody ourselves, right and here Years later, you know, I see that we Just by being ourselves and and doing and looking the way we wanted to look Uh, it really influenced people and you so you never do know who you influence in life Yeah Do you feel like your music and a lot of the motown music influenced the entire civil rights movement in a way? Um, well, I I would say I would say that the way I look at What the motown music did Is to give people and mr. Barry gordy said this not me He says I want to give people music the motown sound So that everybody can enjoy the music. I was prior to that all people he says prior to that You know people have to hide and if they like the music you have to have to hide You know not let anyone know that they are listening to black music You know, he said I want people to be able to enjoy music because as we know throughout the ages I mean I went back to nyu and got my associate's degree In uh, 2000. I think I graduated in 2001 and I remember That it it was wonderful to be able to Get myself I don't know how you can say it so that I could feel like a star. I mean we Oops, sorry.  So what was your question? I Was talking about the influence the music had on the civil rights movement because we're going through another very tumultuous time right now as you know Right the music I know that's that I was going there and I went that way, but uh, the music Is something throughout the ages. That's where I left off throughout the ages. We know that music has always been there uh From empires from Intiquity, you know always been there to help people enjoy themselves and there's kings and queens You know, they have the minstrels and all this whatever because music does have that influence it. It gives a person Uh, you know something inside it touches you inside. It's not about your thoughts or not about anything The emotions music touches the emotions. That's what it is And so I think that with motetown And very gory deciding to make that mute that motel music the mute motel sound So that it could be enjoyed by everyone was uh, I have to give him the credit for Saying that's what I want to do now It's a collaboration in terms of all the people that came to motel motel is like a to me a disney land I mean the the writers to producers all the artists of arvin gaze tv wonder You know, I can a whole list of temptations or poor tops and and all these people But it was a collaboration because we had a place to go mr. Very gory was very Into knowing that we needed a place Our own place So no one could tell you how to do your musical or what you got to do this But you can come there and that's what we all did as young kids when we finally We finally got the audition Oh, I'll tell you how I get we got the audition once he told us to go back to high school. All right, mr. Gordy He did.  He says well, we not that we were going to leave high school Our parents would have killed us had we thought about Okay, because I mean even though we were poor and we lived in the projects We our upbringing was extremely good. I mean it was really our parents were My mother who couldn't read and write always said I want my children to go to college And so we were always, you know, we were made to be in school and so when we Just before we got our hit record. I remember I told mr. Eddie Holland Brian Holland Eddie Holland and Lamont dojo were the ones who wrote all of our 10 million selling records in the 60s Right, they did the word our logo baby love stopping the name of love. You can't hurry love I hear symphony. I mean they wrote them all and produced them all right and it was amazing because Just before we got the hit record. I told Eddie Holland I said Eddie we need a hit record because if we don't get a hit record Our parents are going to make us help make us go to college Showed you how silly I was right but But it was true. So eventually when we finally got signed to to motel and I remember Um, we were sitting out on the grass I I have a backtrack here to tell you how we actually got signed too. I didn't tell you that so, um We're still in high school now. We're in high school now and uh, every time an artist say the miracles of a couple was Hey, Mary, how are you now? Mary will say, I don't mean temptation, you know, so we we we ingratiated ourselves to motel So just by being there every day, right? So we knew everyone who went into motel and one day The some of the producers came out and they said we need someone to do some hand clap for us and we said So that's how we actually got in You were just an audience Oh, we we you know how they say you sit outside of a building and you yeah, we just sort of yeah Just hung out there. We just hung out there every day after school, right? So now we're inside And we're like recording, you know doing backhand claps and things like that and pretty soon, mr Very good. He said, you know what? You girls are real. I see you're very serious. He says i'm gonna sign you And uh, now by now we're 15 and a half That grizzled veterans by that time right well because we have been working all over the door doing the record house. Yeah uh, and so so anyway, so when the time came for him, he said To sign the contract for us sign us up He said, but you got to change your name. I don't like that name primates at all And we were like what nobody's gonna know us if we change our name, right? Uh, and so no, but you got to change. So anyway, we said, okay So all of our parents had to come because we were only an hour 16 years old. So 1961 and so We go there and we we're thinking that he had to gotten that we had to change our names, but he had not And so there's a contract like myself my mother couldn't read no right And so she didn't know what was on the contract and we all we wanted to do was just sign a motel or we didn't care I would have given away my 11 grandchildren Had I ever thought I was gonna have any well now I wouldn't do that but anyway But back then we didn't have a lawyer, you know and all we wanted to do was so we didn't know So we just we signed the contract our parents signed it Little did we know that at the bottom it says and any name you Uh acquire or get will belong to motel so Florence was the one who came up with the name and uh the name then was motel, but we didn't know this I didn't know it until maybe Seven eight years later when Florence was no longer in the group then I found out that we did not own our name Uh and by then we had had all our hit records and everything like that. We never did get a lawyer We never ever got a lawyer to negotiate for us and that was kind of That's something I've been fighting for many years, but that's another whole litigation is part of my thing now Well, I I had about the truth. I actually I'm sorry. I actually said I should have married a lawyer Then I wouldn't have to you know, I could get him do all the work Well, tell us then about this truth in music act that you've been fighting for Uh now now that's later now that is later right through the music I do want I do want to come back to that uh in that because it is part of what how I've become sort of uh Involved and in politics in a way you might see but there are a couple of pieces of legislation that actually, um Um, uh rick perry signed one of them for me here and really? Yes. Yes. Yes. So anyway Two pieces of legislation one is called the modernization act which has to do with uh, if you recorded Pre 1972 anytime people would stream music or play it on Do whatever they do on the radio The artists did not get paid if you hear how many people out there think when you hear our music on the radio You think we get played right? No, we don't however Any artists from uh post 1972 they get paid every time their music is whatever they get paid. So I and a lot of the other artists Went on a grassroots situation and we got that bill passed and it passed in both the house. It passed everyone Voted it. Yes. So it was passed and trump signed it. Uh, sorry. I keep so this is recent This is more recent. That's what now the one that rick perry helped me on here in texas Is called which you just asked about was the truth in music and that has to do with artists who have lost their names because people are going out and calling And they they formed groups and they call them by the famous names of groups that already exist And so, you know, you can go to a show and if you see a record that was recorded back in the 1950s But the people up there look like they're only 12 or 13 years old, you know, that couldn't be them, you know So the truth of music was passed bill was passed. I think it was 28 states and now I'm working with the ria To um get that passed in the federal courts so that you know, we don't have to use our own money I mean, I've been I've been in litigation and lost cases Because I didn't even own the name supreme's which I've still been trying to do So all of these things that those two bills are the things that I've been a part of and I'm very happy So if you go to a show and you want to hear the music which I know people love the music I do too, you know, but some of these people Uh, they've stolen our names. I mean, it's like identity theft, but it's music. So I want to get that Into law and that way we can, uh, you know, stop them. So that was it I want to switch back a little bit to the Motown days. I was thinking about this Because you all were african-american and you were traveling And after seeing the famous movie, I think it was the green book. Oh the green book. Yeah I was thinking about that and what it what was it like for you as three african-american women traveling all over the country um Did you face issues or problems because of your race? Um, let's go even go further than that further back because, um Some of the earlier tours we did We did de clark caravan of stars to her Someone who just mentioned they were in who said they were from philadelphia. They were on american bandstand. Yes She used to be there. She used to dance on the american bandstand. Really? Yeah So Anyway We the supreme's were before we became famous. No, let me back back a little bit more from that Because I was talking about eddie holland and how we wanted to have the hit record and he So uh told me if we don't get a hit record our parents were sinister college. Well, we did get the hit record All right And after that, uh motown records. Mr. Barry gordy sent us out on a tour with de clark And it was a tour with jean pitney how many people remember jean pitney? Yeah jean pitney it was it was uh the surels It was all kind of people on this tour I was black and white on the tour and this still was you know early in in that whole thing with You know black and white situation So we would we traveled throughout the south and in many places We were pulled into and uh, they wouldn't let us all in So I remember mr. de clark would say well if All of us can't come in then, you know He said everybody get back on the bus. So we'd have to get back on the bus Now that was on the de clark tour and then now we had some motown review tours, which was all black And that was really tough on us. I remember We got shot at the bus got shot at a couple of times and what was it? Well, I tell you what a beautiful thing that happened We would do some shows and of course they would have a line On the middle and you have the blacks on this side You have the whites on this side and we go up there and we're just singing You know everyone's singing doing that thing the miracles whatever and by the time the show is halfway You know into whatever everyone's mingling and so we had this one. I remember this one I don't know if he's a sergeant what he was Uh, I remember his name called peck pepper And he would come up. He says all right. All right, break it up. Break it up, you know And uh, it was amazing because we got on the bus and and uh Then someone said they heard the gunshots. So mary wells. It was really popular at the time. You know, I've got two lovers And I'm not ashamed remember and uh, so she was kind of a little on the broad side And so it was an old bus and she she she she just fell down down in the stairwell there and wouldn't move Right. So we were all trying to climb over the contours You know the miracles the temptations the supreme's the marvelous. We all try to climb over her So anyway, so we get on we get everyone eventually gets on the bus and we take off down the road Uh, and then everyone started singing.  Yeah, right But it was amazing because we then ran into sergeant kerb Cold pepper. I think it was again on someplace else down the line. He says, all right. I'm taking care of y'all now Y'all just don't don't be getting anybody aroused out here. You know, he was just one all We're like, we're just singing. Okay. Now one last story about this. We love your stories. Tell us maybe Okay And so this one time the same tour of the motel review tour we It's steve's cp wonder's record had just become a hit. I think it was fingertips And so we're in this raggedy bus, right? We're we're in florida Uh, I can't remember which part of florida. But anyway, so we had a day off So the bus pulled up to this motel and we got we got in And someone said that's a swimming pool out there And we said what and we said, oh good. So everyone kind of came back down and jumped in the pool, right? And all the white people who were there they jumped out So not so so the but the here's a beautiful part about it. So, you know, we're like, okay Someone had a transistor. Remember that transistor radio. Sure So someone had it and the music was playing and they were talking about the show that was coming to town with steve Wonder and da da da da da da da and someone said I think that's steve wonder right there. I think that So then everyone jumped back in the pool And the rest of the day we parted everybody we just party So it shows you It shows you that, you know, what music does but it what music can do But it also shows you that when we're when the law is a law, you know, people abide by that Except maybe now You know and You know, but but but we get beyond it because of our the human parts of us our emotions I'm saying that I touch with music and I just think that I'm very happy That I have been in this business for 58 years and that music has Given me this As we live through this this tumultuous time that we're in right now another divided time Do you think that music can can have a big influence like it did during your day? Do you think it's having an influence a positive influence? You know, I I don't I think now we're beyond that type of Hell I think it's we have to go back to To us as being human beings and what we as human beings Want to happen and everyone has to want peace And things of that nature in order for Even music to be effective. I don't think music can be effective now because it's not about it's not about that anymore It's more about money. It's more about powers or it's about position And so therefore it's kind of I think it's going to take each of us To to to know what we should do as human beings at this time So that maybe our grandchildren our great-grandchildren can have a better way of life You know, and so I I think that with me when I go on stage to sing I That's what I have in my heart. And so if that's what I can do I think each person Mother father uncle whoever we that's what we have to do to the world. We have to give the best parts for ourselves and maybe that Can help change and then of course the music can come in but right now it's all about it's I I don't mean to say politics, but it's all about it's all this corporate type thing You know no one's I mean I look I look at tv I don't really look at tv anymore But I have a couple things that I like and I see That you know if you look some of the commercials you see Things I would I would tell my children don't don't look at that. I mean that's horrible Um and the children are talking back to their parents and commercials or that you know, it's like it's like so negative everything is negative And we're selling it. We're selling likes and we're celebrating it, you know And I think that is so bad. I don't really curse And sometimes if I hit my knee or something I will say a word or two And my my my children if they hear this Mom, what are you doing cursing, you know, because I don't that's not the way I brought them up And that's not the way who I'm I won't say I haven't done anything bad.  You know, I should I won't do that again, you know, but I just feel that It's really time Most of us as I look out there. I'm 75 and a half years old And when I look out there, I see people from the same generation that I grew up with And I think that if we're so unhappy, maybe we should do something Maybe we should do something and we're gonna go away.  Well, this was when we were not we were still like You know the big wings And I said, well, Roosevelt, you know Some people can march and make things happen. They can do this I say, but we're doing what we do in the way that we can do it We're showing beauty From the way that we can do it and this is who we are And and I really feel that way I think that each person should be honest with themselves and try to just do what you think should be done What is that do unto others as we have others do unto you?  I'm not that I always did it But I mean, I do do think that Yes What do you want to tell you one thing? I'm sorry. Yes I because because we kind of stage is you're we're kind of moving But my I want to say something about People that influence you and the mentors that we've had because I think everybody stands on somebody's shoulders Whether it's even if it's just your parents, but my English teacher, mr. Boom Said to me one day he says miss wilson. I know that you you sing with this little group the primates He say but if you don't pass my my class You will not graduate.  So you don't want to be in his class or her class But I got mr. Boom's class every his english class every semester from the fresh age all the way to the last one. So anyway So I get scared because I'm in the 12th grade now, right? And we're getting ready to have the the the records released and all this kind of stuff So I wrote this paper And it was a paper about my earlier upbringing when I found out that my mother That I my aunt and uncle were not my mom and my dad So I grew up thinking my aunt and my uncle were my mom and dad All right, and so at age of 10 I finally they introduced me to my mother and then I'm like, oh And then they introduced me to my brother and my sister. So I didn't know anything, right? And so I wrote this I wrote about that And how it I felt like it had just Adults are liars, you know, and it really got to me and so I wrote about it and then I passed this paper into mr. Boom And he gave me an a plus plus plus plus But but but not before he gave me the whole thing like miss wilson He says I think that you should perhaps consider becoming and I'm said, oh my god All I want him to do is just pass me so I can go down and record He said I think you should consider becoming a writer Ah I said to myself This man is really out of his mind But as long as he passes, it is okay with me So anyway when I went down to motel I What I started keeping a diary because he something must I don't know if something got in there And I didn't think I I'd start keeping a diary at that age and And here I am some years later. I've had three books and one was the best seller You never know You know when you hear something and people your mentors and you don't even know they're your mentors, you know So I really wanted to bring that up because I've not given him the credit credit even in the book I have not said that and I need to start Saying that he is responsible for my becoming a writer and I forgot why I said that Does he know about your past he passed but but but no no he does I'm you're right. He does know that we the supreme's became famous and all that kind of stuff in fact He said to me one year. He says miss wilson. I'm so proud that you didn't listen to me So that was really cool, you know, it was really cool And But I There are other people who I I tried to mention some in this book and I would maybe in the next book I'll bring out because When you get older some things you You kind of forget people in a way and there were many many other people who really helped us Our supreme's Diane's mom was our chaperone and she was just great. She was great for all of us Um, we have people who would just drive us. I mean we had so many people who were our who took care of us when we didn't have anything And so when we became famous, you know, I I really have to now look back and say wow You know There are people out there that you really got to say thank you even if you can't remember them You just got to say thanks gonna just pass Thank you for all the people in my life because I wouldn't be who I am without all of those people Willed that's the truth. Yeah, so why did you guys break up and what happened to the fourth primate? I mean, I know that flow had some alcohol and Issues people say that flow had the alcohol issues, but I'll go back to that too Okay, and it was she she did but not because of the alcohol. Okay, this was I I'm very happy about the me too movement nowadays because when Florence was 14 years old. We were still the primates and uh, she was abused To she was raped uh at the age of 14 and that to me totally destroyed her um in terms of her being Her full capabilities of being Who she should have been she was a beautiful person and it was that was at a time when people didn't talk about those things, you know You just didn't talk about him. So her appearance kind of Didn't tell us what was happening and Florence Diane and I I thought that flow would get over once we became famous I just you know, this is gonna. She'll be okay But it's not true because she didn't get that help and that's why this me too movement that's out there now is so good I don't think that people should Go out there and say well, you know, he did that he did there. She did that. Yeah, I don't believe in that But some things need to be addressed Uh, not just by family or friends. They need to be You know Addressed in a way to help people Because those things really do destroy you inside. I mean I saw my friend who Was a beautiful young lady Florence actually named the supreme. She's it was she started the group She was a great singer flow was just flow. She don't know that she loves as a Romeo But that was in one of the records. But anyway, um So but she was a beautiful lady and even when we became famous, um, you know It it it was okay for a while But pretty soon when other things started happening She just couldn't handle it because it was all of this was still happening to her So when people say she was the alcoholic, I say no, that's that's not that's not a problem She was a victim and a lot of these people need to be helped. So I'm very happy that people are speaking out About it. Um, so what was it? But the but what happened to the fourth primate? No, that was it. Um, so for Betty the original primate was a little older than Diane and flow and I she was I think she was 17 when we met and We were only 13 so she eventually got married and we had to get another girl Barbara whom I talked to all the time And uh, she she actually was a supreme So there were actually four supreme's because when we signed the contract it was Barbara was there as well Very few people know that I I wrote about that in this book and um so she actually Was really beautiful as well, but she fell in love and uh She got married as well However, we did replace her because we said, you know what? We don't think we're going to get married me flowing down and you sound good. Just the three of you sound really good So we said so we didn't get a fourth member. So that's how we ended up with three Okay, but I speak to Barbara all the time. Betty unfortunately passed away uh Maybe about 10 or 15 years ago. I think it was but uh, Barbara is still in love with the same guy So she said girl he said she said girl willy is I say well, yeah, but at least you still got somebody we that we don't have anywhere So I love is that yes But why did you guys finally split the group of several reasons first of all Florence was the first person who was put out of the group and Florence was put out of the group Due to what you said the drinking because she in her own way she had tried to you know to What people do people, you know, you got pain you try to cover it up so um and then in life just kind of After having traveled all over the world Do it all these great things and then coming home and not having the kind of money she needed all this pain so her life was She was one of the people in life. I say that Between she and diane have really helped me to know What to do and what not to do and that if you You just got to keep going and believe in yourself And you can't let the pain stop you a lot of things can stop you I'm like a lot of things can stop you and because diane went zoom to the top I knew that that was there for me to do because Florence wasn't able. I knew that mary. I was always in the middle middle child I was always in the middle So I I I learned from From from them to um, you know, take care of myself and do the best I could to be Who I really should be in life and like I said, I made a lot of mistakes, but you know still Uh in the long run. I believe that I've done What I should I I believe I'm okay. Yeah. Yeah, we we think you're wonderful We We're running out of time unfortunately, I have one final question for you though It's really kind of twofold You could be resting on your laurels at this point, you know, those things stick But you're out there performing you're gonna be performing one world theater here in austin in february perform all over the country You do dance at the stars at your home like what a couple days a week and then you're off on the road What do you still get out of that? I enjoy I mean like I said, I when I met floe diane and betty, I I knew this I knew that was You know that for me, I saw the full picture of A beauty of completeness. I mean, yes Uh Doesn't matter about the end or the goal It was about for me and still is for me What makes me happy as a human being? And so I I tell a lot of kids when I not kids but children When I I do a lot of lectures and I tell them, you know, you all know everyone's not Rich and famous and all those kind of things a lot of us have to work hard So you might as well work hard as something you enjoy And I've enjoyed this all my life That's kind of what I You know, are you gonna are you gonna retire? I'm like, well, then I'd be bored You know, I love traveling when I was a kid the young girl I used to read fairy tales and You know for me I I dreamt about traveling all over the world meeting wonderful people falling in love and You know, but you know now I now I see that it's it's it's it's so much more to life than trying to reach Your goal because I think that we already are whole I think that life is about maybe experiencing You as a whole, you know, and those each experience that you have That's a picture. That's already I think it's already been done, you know And I want to continue doing it. So anyway So that's that was going to be my final thing We'd love to Yeah We'd love to hear your voice Okay, I think it's on testing one It's on it's on are you gonna sing background with me? No, just sure I can I you can do that I sang on willy nelson's bus for the ones that did you yeah, but this is a much bigger thrill Too much information judy Now it's time for me to interview her There was a certain odor in the bus Oh, I can tell you a story about that too The first time we met uh not no, there wasn't the first time we met the Beatles It was a second time actually uh in new york city when they came over they were staying at the um I can't think of the name or hotel right now, but anyway, we had the pr people had gotten us together and said We want to put the two groups together And uh, you know get pictures and do all those kind of things So we got all dressed up in our little pearls and our little everything we were like so cute and uh So we got we pulled up and into there with the warwick hotel Pull up to in front of the warwick hotel and all the girls was you know standing out there screaming screaming for the Beatles They thought maybe one of the guys so they ran over to the car and they saw the three girls Anyway, so we get upstairs and yeah, the odor was quite So they had and in fact, I had heard that uh bob dillon had just left one of the the Ronettes had been over I mean they were like, you know, they were like sitting out there like kings and kings, you know Everyone was coming up to see them and so really, you know, they were nice enough, but uh We we we felt that we we told our guys it's uh, I think we better leave So years later when when george george uh harris and I became very dear friends and he said to me He says yeah Mary.   We thought you guys were going to be hip and all that kind of stuff and you came up there And you were so square and we like So anyway But you're here to tell the story Right no complaints no regrets I still believe in Chasing dreams And placing bets It's a it's a it's a large chair, but I have learned that all you give Is all you get So give it all you got I had my share And I drank my fill And even though I'm satisfied I'm hungry still To see what's down another road beyond the hill And do it all again So here's And every joy it brings So here's to life to dreamers and their dreams Funny How the time just flies How love can go from warm. Hello, sad. Goodbye and leave you with the memories you've memorized To keep your winter's warm, but there's no yes and yes today And who knows what tomorrow brings or it takes away As long as i'm still in the game i'm gonna play For life for love For love So here's to life to dreamers and their dreams And all of that's good here's to love


Hello, very welcome to this new episode of the Robosly Beneficial Podcast. Today we're going to discuss an entry from the Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy called Ethics of Artificial Intelligence and Robotics. So it's quite recent because we in the end of April 30, 2020, and it's quite a nice overview of many important topics in ethics of AI. So the article starts with some background on the field of AI, and it stresses the fact that it's becoming more and more important, but it's not always clear what are the priorities in terms of AI ethics. It has concerns that maybe we sometimes focus on wrong things, and it argues that it's going to try to highlight the most important aspects of AI ethics, and essentially it identified 10 main debates, as it is called, and then you can go through them one by one. So the first one was something that is discussed very widely. It's the prime of privacy and surveillance, and this is like very, well, very much already debated, and it's very much about today's algorithms. And well, the basic idea is that today if you're using Facebook or Google, then Facebook and Google and others are collecting a lot of information about what to do. It can be more or less personal. And yeah, so there's this concern that this can allow mass surveillance, especially if the government has access to such data, which is likely to be the case in practice, at least in some cases. So then there's this problem of how do we design algorithms that are resilient to such issues? Yeah, concerning data, the article also mentioned the question of the ownership of personal data. And this is also something that raises a lot of discussion. The way things went is that somehow government and a big institution did not anticipate well enough the importance of data and the fact that this social network would be recording things about everyone and make their business out of this. And we can say today that we lost ownership of our personal data because it's out there and we are not getting paid from that. But in the opposite, these big companies used this to optimize their algorithms to better target ads. And another thing like this. It's something that Yuval Ahavi often mentioned that he even says that in some cases, these algorithms know us better than we know ourselves because they have been able to collect so much information about us and also the scale of this algorithm because they have information about more than millions, even several billions of people. They can find patterns in that and make deductions that we as individuals with our small observation space, we can't. He often says the example of the fact that the Coca-Cola company was aware that he was gay before he himself was aware. And he explained the example of what ad was targeted for him. What I found most interesting was the second point raised by the in the article, which is about manipulative behaviors by algorithms. So it starts from these algorithms that collect so much data about us that know us, let's say, better than we know ourselves, but also have incentives to change us, to manipulate us. So why do they have these incentives? So simply YouTube algorithm is trying to maximize the time you spend on YouTube, Facebook, and become a system is trying to maximize the time you spend on Facebook. And to achieve this, it just is not sufficient to simply show you interesting content. If the algorithms can choose to show you content that will change you into someone that is more likely to come back to YouTube or change you into someone that's more likely to come back to Facebook, that's these these smart algorithms that can test things on millions of people, they will necessarily find this kind of content that can change you. And so that's where the concept of manipulation, manipulative behaviors by algorithms come from. Maybe just to stress the fact that here, often when we hear manipulation, we tend to think of malice and malicious intentions. So here manipulation is not necessarily intended, the intended objective, but it's just inevitable. If I just put in on an objective function to maximize watch time, and the fastest way to maximize watch time is to put content that makes you come back more often and changes your own preferences, then the algorithm without real intention will manipulate you. Like just like to put a caveat because like most people when they hear manipulation, they think of intentions. Yeah. The first outcome of this is simply addictive content. So this is something that's highly recommended on social media and highly shared. Cigarettes do not have an intention to manipulate you but smoking the first cigarettes makes you addicted and makes you willing to smoke another cigarette. Maybe addiction is better than manipulation just to convey the like the real nature of what's happening. Yeah. Addiction is not the only kind of manipulation you can think of. But yeah, if you think of the recommender systems themselves, the algorithm is not like trying to make sure you become an extremist or something like this. It's just trying to maximize the engagement time. Yeah, it's just that extremists engage more with the platform. As the side effects of addiction. Yeah. And I think it's important to keep in mind that many of the problems of algorithms or other side effects than malicious intentions or at least a lot of them are side effects. The complexity of like the tree of all possible side effects is so complex and so intractable that maybe the most economic way of talking about them is just to say manipulation. Yeah. Another thing I wanted to raise is that like I feel like a lot of the words used in the entry like privacy, surveillance, manipulation are highly connoted. Like it feels like for instance, privacy is definitely good, surveillance is definitely bad. Manipulation is definitely bad. We're going to talk afterwards about opacity and things like biases. But I think it's more complex than this. Like for instance, typically if you can somehow better understand people, mental health conditions using this data, it has to be done well. And it's like very important that this can be that this is done very, very well. But there's also opportunities. Also, like you can provide more customized recommendations. Like the COVID situation also highlights the fact that like in many countries, at least in France, like very contagious diseases have a special legal framing where essentially have a duty to report that you are highly contagious if you are. And so there can be reasons. It's very touchy and has to be done well. And it's very, very hard. But there can be reasons to protect most people to understand some of the important risks. In the case of like influencing people through algorithms. Well, that's what we are doing right now. Like we're trying to influence you into thinking that AI fix is important. So this is a kind of manipulation of maybe we would rather create education. But this can be also an impact like for instance, Tristan Harris from your undivided attention cast often talks about fighting climate change by recommending quality contents about climate change and raising awareness through recommender algorithms. So that would be a kind of manipulation that could be for something much more important, which is the future of climate and this of mankind. Yeah, so clearly bad manipulation is bad. But it's not all clear that all sorts of like trying to influence people or bad. Yeah, it's not very clear what non manipulation would be because if you go on social media and you see content, then it will change you. Maybe this content will make you stay the person you are without changing you. But this is one part of the platform. What the what the algorithm selects makes you like this decides that you will not change or decide that you will change in a certain way. So I would say as long as there is a content recommendation, it's hard to define what non manipulative content recommendation would be. Okay, good. Go on to the next point. So the next chapters in the article concern the question of biases and it's something highly discussed concerning artificial intelligence. There were some cases, for example, the one we discussed was simply the case of the what comes out when you research for the keyword CEO on a Google image. And a long time ago, it showed only photos of male CEO. And this was considered an important bias problem of the algorithms. Today, it's fairly fixed. But so it's fixed on Google, but not really on other search engines. We did the experiments and a lot of caveats. It's not clearly fixed. Yeah, it's not clearly fixed. And actually, we did the experiment the other day. And both I did the experiment from my laptop in perfect navigation mode. And well, if you search if I want to search a female CEO on Google, I did have 20 30% of the female CEO images. But on other websites, like bing.com, dot go, try the Ecosia quant, things like this. No, they were only male CEOs images. And the only other exception was Yahoo images, which I found interesting. But yeah, it's not that clear. It's fixed. And it's quite hard to fix any so famous examples. So that's why Google fixed it. But maybe there are no subtle cases where it wasn't fixed. Yeah, I expect that this is a complicated problem to know all all the areas in which these kind of things should be fixed. I'm pretty sure Google hasn't done it well enough already. Yeah. And there's the problem of doing this. Because I don't know how Google did this. But one way to do this is by hand essentially, and see like one of these very contentious, well important bias issues and to detect them and then to fix them by hand. I don't know if what this is what Google did, probably small as this, usually you identify by what the way de-biasing you off like this de-biasing algorithms will really work is that you identify two classes of people, we want them to be equally represented, represented in some in some outputs and you correct for this. But this is usually done by hand and it's a bit ad hoc and there's no systematic way to do this. And this means that we can only de-biase the cases that we have been able to identify. And if you see by we within humans, it's arguably quite limited. So I think just the research for more systematic de-biasing should be done. And the other thing we discussed is that I actually don't really like the word de-biasing because it suggests that there was a clear bias that we want to that needed to be fixed and then everything is solved. And in practice, like many of the if you look at empirical data, they the way the world is is arguably in a certain way is very biased. Like you just look at for CEOs or mathematicians or computer scientists. Unfortunately, computer scientists like the three of us are all made. So it's very in a certain way. And probably what we want is instead of representing how the world is, at least when people search for computer scientists on Google, maybe we want to show them more something closer to what we would want the world to be like. And this would mean that we would be adding biases to the description of the world. And maybe that's something that we actually want. I think like we made a poll and essentially everybody agrees that this is something that we should do like a moment of reading group. So at least a lot of us want to actually bias the representation of the data in favor of a view of the world as we want and would want it to be rather than how it currently is. What do you think of people saying that algorithms are not biased, but is the training data that is biased? In a sense, I guess the question is biased with respect to what when you say biased, you suggest that there's something you want to achieve and the bias drives you away from this thing you want to achieve. Now the thing you want to achieve could be a direct description of the world. And in this case, you can have data that are biased with respect to the description of the world. That's probably what occurs whenever you go on social media or when you read the media that shows a biased view of how the world is. But arguably, with the example I gave, we even want to create a bias with respect to how the world is towards how we think the world should be or at least towards how what we would consider as more desirable recommendations. And this would correspond to adding biases. Yeah, so quite similar to what we just said about manipulative behaviors that what to robustly beneficial algorithms would be manipulative, but in a good way, in a way that we desire them to be. And same thing for a recommendation engine or search engines, they should be biased in a direction that we find beneficial. I think it raises a more fundamental question, which is the question of what is an ethical decision or recommendation more generally. And I think our view here is that it's one that's robustly beneficial to something like mankind or life or something like this. It's very hard to go into the details, but I think it's useful to keep this in mind as a more fundamental terminal goal that we may have in mind. And then there are these more instrumental goals, like transparency or de-biasing when it's biased with respect to how the world is or something like this. These are instrumental goals, but they are just part of what we really want to argue. The next part in the article was concerning transparency, which is a topic we already talked about in previous episodes of the podcast. The idea of transparency is that because these algorithms take a huge number of decisions, and as we have discussed so far, these decisions have ethical implications.  And so requiring these algorithms to be more transparent in the way they are doing things is definitely an ethical question for our own good, for the good of everyone. These algorithms need to be made better, and if they are more transparent, we would somehow see the way they can fail and improve them. I think what we already discussed is a lot, but transparency has a lot of advantages. It can be verified, it can be audited, it can be corrected, it can be tested. Yeah, but again we also raised concerns about the full transparency. Maybe it could enable malicious actors to more easily take advantage of the system, and the example of spam filters is an interesting one. Yeah, I think this needs to be thought through, and it's not that simple. Yeah, we can refer to the previous podcast if you're interested in the topic. The next point in the article is something that we never talked about before, the question about robots. So personally, I don't find it to be a very interesting topic because I think this, so specifically talking about mostly humanoid robots or robots that you live with at home, I think it's something that because it's not extremely scalable, it won't happen soon, and it will take time, but maybe I'm wrong. In the article they mentioned two specific examples. The first one is care robots for elderly. This thing actually, I know it's most likely coming, I know people doing research on developing these kind of robots. And the second example is the example of sex robots. While reading this part, I was mostly scared about the fact that this engagement we would have with robots that look more alive compared to simple screen of a laptop or screen of our phones would simply increase even maybe a, what do you say, would multiply the emotional engagement we have with these algorithms. Already the social network to come out of system, they try to be content that is emotionally strong for us and creates either addiction or anger and definitely look for the content and that make us interact more, make us engage more with these small things like phone and laptops. And if a robot has access to this kind of information, to this kind of data, to this kind of algorithms to select content for us, then I'm afraid they would simply be a lot more addictive, a lot more engaging, a lot more emotionally disrupting for society. Yeah, yeah, so like you, I don't think that robots are as concerning in terms of AI ethics than social, like very common assistance, for instance, that are much more scalable and affect billions of people with very customized, right, it's already big. Yeah, I think it's a very interesting, it's still interesting to think about the robots as themselves. I'm not pretty convinced by the greater engagement thing. Well, I think it's I think it's an interest, it's probably also a possibility, but like I feel like people can react a lot to things that are very virtual. So at some point, for some, there was the example of Tamagotchi that was given.  And people, like many people engage with this, I think a lot of people also have some, quite some empathy for Pikachu they have on the Pokemon game. And maybe there can be applications on the phone that can be very, they can really work on this and serve as care companions or maybe not sex companions. Yeah, I'm not sure how critical the Android part is to engagement and emotions. There's probably, talks about robots and agents that are often suggest to be embodied as a robot. I believe it's a, there is like an over-representation of the team robots in AI ethics, AI safety, especially outside and machine learning researchers. And I also feel like the danger comes from decentralized, non-embodied, like I would rather fear a recommender system than a robot that they can localize in front of me.  And I think we should keep pushing on this direction where people care more about non-embodied, decentralized, and robust agents because that could not be localized and contained and confined. And that's why there is often this misunderstanding that there is no risk coming from AI because we can simply, if we see that it's going bad, pull off the plug. You can't involve the plug of a recommender system. Yeah, so. Can you see if it's going bad? Which plugs? All the plugs are on the work. I always give this like, yeah, just addiction, like try to switch off the algorithm that makes your teenager kid addicted to a social network. You can't. Yeah, sometimes even if it's a Game Boy, I just have one button to press. Well, at least the Game Boy is like the Game Boy. If I didn't have a Game Boy, but I don't think it was connected to any network. Yeah. If you kill the single Game Boy, the kid loses all the content. Yeah, but I mean, if your parent tried to tell your kid to kill, but just to switch off, it's Game Boy can be very, very hard for him, for the kid. It's not because the Game Boy is a very sophisticated kid or machine. It's just like, it's addictive. Imagine, for example, imagine you have a teenager that has a very complex relationship to his or her social media presence. Then even like as a parent, you can't kill the social media presence by just killing the smartphone, because everything is backed up and the kid could just find another smartphone and get back to the addictive or to the toxic community or to whatever was not very good for their mental health. Yeah, maybe one exception to this, and this is another section of the article, is Autonomous Cars and Autonomous Drones. Especially Autonomous Drones. We talked about this also in the previous episode, but the important difference is that there can be a lot of them. You can imagine a fleet of millions of kilograms of drones, and now each of them is localized, but there are millions of them. It's harder to protect against them. I think this is a much bigger concern than human-looking androids. Yeah, I agree. So in another section of the paper, they also mentioned the concept of a employment and automation. So it's something that's often feared concerning artificial intelligence that because they allow more automation, they allow for jobs to be replaced. From what kind of shock from society can we expect? So one that has been observed is that between the year 1800 and the year 2000, it used to be that most of the population, around 60%, was working in farms, but now we are in a completely different society where less than 5% of the population works in farms. The question concerning development of artificial intelligence is whether similar shocks will occur and change the landscape of the job market as safe and healthy as that. And because it's quite an uncertain area, how can we try to anticipate it correctly, prepare for it, and make sure that things happen in a good, desirable way? All the big questions. Yeah, I think also the current COVID situation is really affecting the way people work and employment is going to be an issue. So I think that we need to consider solutions for at least the possibility of an increase of employment. Yeah, one of the main concerns also is increase in employment and also increase of inequalities. The already rich and powerful companies that will then be able to automate more, to produce more and use less workers, the higher-less people for producing the same thing would simply become more and more productive. In the end, you can think that all of these technologies are just allowing us to produce abundance, to produce a lot more with much less work. This has been a trend since the dawn of all mankind. So we have all of these good things that are coming in and maybe we should think of how to redistribute all of this wealth in the best possible way for the good of all of mankind. Yeah, this is definitely an important topic. So they mentioned in the article what they call the age of leisure, which would be a time when we automate it sufficiently that most people don't need to work anymore and everything from food center to entertainment and leisure are all provided to everyone, no matter what you do. And this is one of the huge reasons to, when we talk about AI risk, some people think of stopping to do research on AI and simply would absorb the risk, but we would lose this opportunity to do extremely large amount of good from this kind of technology and this is extremely valuable. Yeah, and life without computers or computing. The one we know of at least is like back in the beginning of the 20th century and was not that pretty for most people back then. Okay, do you want to extend more on this topic of singularity? Yeah, we can discuss a little bit the problem of singularity. So what the idea of the singularity would be that some AI systems become extreme like super intelligent and they were very very capable and they for instance are able to produce better AIs than researchers in AI could. They can solve any task, at least information processing task better than any human can. And if this happens, then well, we have to expect a lot of changes in the way we organize many things in our society. I mean, a lot of jobs these days are about problem solving or solving some changes, organizing the information, making decisions. And so if you have an algorithm that's able to do all of these better than any human, it's definitely going to completely upset the way we live. And I think it's a case where just like as algorithms have become more powerful, there are greater opportunities but also greater risks. And in a sense like the volatility of what can happen is increasing and it's becoming more and more important to do moral philosophy and to make sure that things are really going, especially like robust moral philosophy, to make sure that things have a very high probability of being in the right direction. Yeah, and I think just the risk of a singularity should increase our concern to do moral philosophy on a deadline and making sure we understand what ought to be done, not only by every human, but also by any system in the organization and particularly in machine. Great, that's complete. Let's see how something to add. No, so next week we discuss what? The online fight between anti-vaxxers and pro-vaxxers, right? Yep. So it's a good topic because when we wrote the book, many people told us like, I don't know for labors, when I gave talks and I used the anti-vaxxing example as something we don't want to happen on social media, people told me like, how much is the impact of this? How many people are really dying from this? I remember like a talk at Berkeley and I was asked why I'm like insisting on an example that has so little impact. I hope now the current COVID situation changes this perception of how dangerous the anti-vaccination movement can be, especially that like now we're heading for, we're heading for a big backlash once the vaccines will be developed. Like the anti, like there are reports that the anti-vaccine movement for COVID is already, like it's growing faster than the research on a vaccine. There's a bit of community around the resistance, the COVID vaccine that is getting ready faster than the researcher are getting ready to deploy a vaccine. And yeah, so yeah, clearly that's something we don't want to recommend our systems to be bad acts. So we don't know what the recommender system should do, but at least they shouldn't do something that is obviously bad. Like when you search, like are vaccines good for your health? And then you provide, like even if you provide half the answers, yes and half the answers, no, that's clearly a bad thing because you won't find half the researchers on vaccines and virology and viruses saying the vaccines are bad. You would find maybe two or three among tens of thousands of respected researchers that went through all once they retire and start having some strange positions on vaccines. But yeah, recommender systems are clearly not good on this topic. Like this is, this is a topic where you can very easily say that recommender systems are not good. Right. So thank you. And I don't know if you want to conclude. No, no, that was a conclusion. So thanks for listening to the podcast and see you next week.


there YouTube. Right I'm gonna show you what's inside these Avermeters. As you can see that one there has a metal, metal enclosure around this type of casing, this plastic type of casing. That's because this one is from the RAF or at least it was made not so much for domestic. I'm not quite sure exactly whether it's like a NATO thing or I've just cut back some leads that I had and cut some of the shroud off to give me leads for this one. These leads came with this and this came after this. So I'd already made up a set of leads and then I was going to have two and I just used some. They're not too bad actually. These are say cat 3,000 volts. Let me just check underneath the light. I'm just getting used to using this phone and I'm starting to really really like it. It's the Samsung S7 and look now I'm gonna tap because look it's all out of focus. I'm just gonna tap on that on the image on the screen. That's the first camera I've had I've noticed does it. I'm not gonna say maybe the first phone I've had that it does it on because I've just never noticed it before. I didn't need to start on here by accident. Now these are gonna come in handy. I'll show you another video. I'm gonna just shift these out the way.  I'm just gonna leave the screw in so hopefully you can see inside there that's not looked up at all. There's a little tiny bit of stain there but there's no corrosion. Just smells of, oh I've got to smell a leather then really. That's the battery compartment. That's where the 15 volt cell goes and that's where the D cell would go. Positive, positive. Too inter-negative. There's a spare battery, spare fuse there and a fuse that's in use. I think it could be resistances. Even there look underneath each of these screws. There's a little mark and that represents the bigger space so you know that it goes on like this. I've not put batteries in this one. I've got a D cell in the other one and the only reason it's there is just for the novelty of using the resistance on the low end and it's pretty good. It's pretty good. I do like it. I like it a lot. So that's the battery on there. I'm gonna just put these screws out. I'll speed it up. This is where the calibration stick will be. At least on this one. It's a bit dinked in there now because I paled it back so I couldn't do the screw when I first went into it but I can see what it says on that. Hopefully the camera can pick it up. I can't do that. I'll zoom the focus thing. Force pushing down on the screw to undo it because there isn't any thread.  I hope that you can just catch part of the case and just gently, gently, gently, gently help it comes. That's not going back in. I'll put it in the back side. Okay. Now, it's just inside the back here. That's what the batteries would have been. That's like an oily grease type thing in the bottom. Now I wonder if that's there too because the moisture goes on there. I don't know. I don't know why that would be there. I see the way these connections, they're quite tough then. It's a spring. That's probably why it's put quite a bit of force to push the front out when you do these two screws. Then you've got the camera here to show you. It's big old resistors. It's surprisingly clean. But then I suppose not really. Look, there's a seal. It goes around the outside and it's going to lean it forward first. It'll sit on its own. It does. It'll sit on its own. Okay, I just moved the light round. Look inside of this. It is really clean. It doesn't look like there's been any moisture in there at all. See if I can just zoom in a little bit. There are diodes down there. What that is. What's going on in there? Could these be resistors? Which are tailor-made resistors? Because that's what this thing's all about, isn't it? There's no microprocessor. There's not even a plastic circuit board. Look, no PCBs. It's got this plastic, this bake light maybe. That's what it is. There's no damage on this. I don't have to worry about breathing in any of the potential problems that come from bake light. I'm not going to be boiling it either or smashing it up. Let's see what I should get. It's going to be dust problems. It's really, really clean. I'm really impressed about how clean it is. It's got some sort of grease or something on here. I'm not going to let it fall. You know, in its day, this is like one of the best meters. Oh, my lamp's decided it's going to play. I'll wait and I'll mention one of the best meters you could buy in the sort of for-far, the video. Modern multimeters. How clean the joints are. There's no moisture in there. Very nice. I want to cross the movement. These magnet each side. I'm going to assume that's the bit that gives this needle on this scale its accuracy. Well, there's someone to deal with this. This is the zero in bobbin all that there. I've been reading the manual. There's a couple of manuals out there for these. One of them's a service manual. Not that I intend on getting in here and particularly doing anything. But that's the zero in the needle, the zero. Amazing. Absolutely amazing. All of it's so clean. I suppose you'd expect that for a posh, because this would have been a posh one. Voltage measuring and resistance measuring instrument. It's just a modern electronics. Just all resistors. I'll assume. I've seen some other people taking these apart and having a look inside. But I'm hoping just give you a little bit clearer.   I'm not sure why that's in a spiral the way it is, but I'm sure they're supposed to be. That resistor looks pretty funky there on the back of that, doesn't it? Those look pretty nice. And of course this one's got its mirror or the lower part of this particular scale. And after all that moving it about is that on zero pretty much. I just got that needle behind, the reflection of it behind the needle. Pretty much still there. Because that's one of the things that's a complaint about analog meters, isn't it? Some people say that you've got to keep zeroing them. But you know, for the, I don't know what the word would be, but for the retro enough of playing around with one of these, I think it's worth it. I think it's worth getting old school a little bit. And just having these two sat up there for the price that I got on both four, it was pretty dumb cheap. And it's got the case. I've got leads, A1 pair of leads, any A1 case. The case came with this one. And the leads came with this one. And they're both the same price. But it's great. I took the mirror off before when I first went in the back of them. And I cleaned it up just to make sure it was nice and dust and everything free. And as you can see, it's very easy to see the needle, the reflection of the needle. So you can read accurately. And this is like 20 minutes already. There will be some sped up stuff. I'm sure you don't want to have an hour long video. But I'm going to do a few measurements with it. But first of all, we're going to just take that one apart. So I'm going to speed up again and get that one apart and look inside and compare the two. Okay, well, this one's much heavier. That's metal as well. But this is much heavier. And this one is built in weightlifting gymnasium as well. It's got a diesel battery there. I don't have another battery for here. I might do the five of the three volt cells, you know, the round lithiums and the nut. And you can get it in there for the measurements there for the higher resistances. I have tested it all. I just hooked up to different power supplies, 15 volts and a 1.5 volt for one stage. And everything works on both of them. This is like heavier because it's completely encased in metal. So let's whip that off. Okay, let's lift this puppy out. I should have probably put that to set the point before I started moving it up too much. Inside of here again, really clean. A little bit of grease coming in now. Big old resistors, wire wound, very big mechanically.  That's a big chunk of metal. It's still a bit of dust, a bit of dust, but embedded in the sort of greasy part. I suppose that'd be a good thing if dust did get in it, went on the grease, at least it would stay there. And hopefully won't get into the movement. Same setup as before. A bit of nice sponge in there. This one's absolutely clean as a whistle inside. Even more so than the other one. Show you look. But I think they could be replacement sponges. Good possibilities. Look how clean that is. Really clean. Of course with this you get this, I'll zoom in. You get this, so you can earth it. And clamp an earth to it. Brilliant stuff, eh? There we go. Hold on. Okay, well this is inside the, this is what they call, it's an over weight, but it's called test set number one. Let me show you. Zoom in a bit. Test set number one. High sensitivity. That's the full name for this one. There we've got some, there's a couple of straight away differences on this one. One, this thing here. Two, these, I've got cases around them. These pots. And this is a plastic coated, some sort of casing on the transformer as well. And even though that looks grubby, it's dry. It is dry and I think it's just some sort of maybe grease or something over them. But it's like a dry, dry sort of grease. I don't really want to try now.  But look, it doesn't come off. Try to actually get something to come off and look. It's obviously nothing on my finger. Apart from paste and stuff that I've been putting around with chips. But that's not like a, I think that must be part of the protective coating for it. Because these, these from what I've read would go to different, you know, harsher environments, dampness places, the jungle, being in the military. And so they were coated. They're just more protection on them, you know. And apparently they're a bit more accurate than the other ones. So that's a good thing. That's a bit different underneath than the other one. I wonder if you can see the switches. And you've also got this, see the button button here. So it's all this mechanics, this bit here. I think that, not that, but this, because there's a button here and it pops out if you overload it. So an overload trip device. It's on both of them. In actual fact, I mean, they has got some protection built in. I can't give you all off the top of my head at the minute, but there is a few elements of protection. I'm going to go on the limit and say that these are like the custom made resistance. Because there's no way to adjust these. So everything was made custom. Even down to the sets themselves, if they had to have slightly different, you know, like if there was another one of these, but it was just slightly out. And they were just one of the resistance. So from what I understand, I'm going to be talking absolutely dribble. This is just because I've been sat reading about them and have a drink at the same time. Sometimes, you know, one thing can mix into another, maybe not as good as trying to repeat it all back. Some interesting, as I can say about the switches. Now I'm going to try and turn these in my hand. Try to get it to stay still. Right, see if you can get it so we can see. So you see that moving down and then you can see down the bottom there. Look as it goes from one position to another. I want to get a better view of that. If I can get a better view, because I've got to hold this camera at the same time. Let's see what we can see from here. You can see that moving down. So that must push those plates together. And what's that going from? That's going from the 3 volt range onto resistance. Then you get to see it push all that away. As it goes onto the resistance, completely different mode. But they are definitely built to last that way. Nice and precise. I mean, they clunk right into place. Beautiful. Absolutely beautiful. So there we go. Look at that. Moving in this one. Not really that much different. Slightly different setup. What's inside that yellow thing? I don't need to do that. What's inside here? I don't know why that's there as well. Let me just put the other one next to it.  Okay, so that's the underneath of them both. Now there are some clear differences there, aren't there? But again, let me see the mechanical trip. I'm not really sure how you set it off. They've both got them there. And they seem to go throughout the AVO multimeters. I can see even the AVO 9 multimeters. So of these mechanical trips. So obviously they must work. They must work. There are some differences in the setup here. And this test set them all was based on a Mark 1 or Mark 2 AVO 8. And of course, this is the Mark 3 AVO 8. Here. And so this one hasn't been prepped for different climates, like the RAF one has, where it's more sort of greased up. You can see it's got this enclosure around the transformer. This one hasn't. It's just paper. It's nice though. Put this on. So I'm just going to sit on its terminals. We like doing balance on acts like this, but you get to a little look at the difference between those inside like that. Now there's a lot of these type of encapsulated whatever they are in there. I'm not sure, but of course they're not here. They've just got all these resistors now. They're adjustable resistors. There's a lot of the rest of the layout I've seen so you're pretty much the same. Look more at why is there happening here. Even though they're both 10 amps, those parts look either the side for the calibration, zeroing on there. They've got big old enclosures. Again, of course this thing here. There isn't one in there. And on this one here is where you've got a diode. This is the over eight mark three. On this one you don't have, but then there could be a diode in here. Oh sorry, in here tucked away. I don't know. It's surprising to see an orange and a blue wire. Do anybody else notice that in these? It seems to be grays and blacks. Oh, there's a bit blue down there. And of course I said orange and that's purple. No idea why I said orange. Maybe I was looking at the yellow. Why would I say orange still? Let's not get into it. I've got no idea. So there you go. And of course there's a difference between that one's got the lower mirror on the front of it and this one's higher, the reflector. So that's why that's like that. I think 50 quid they cost. And I think for the money and for the history, for the nostalgia and just to have them there looking beautiful on the bench, I think that was a great buy. And I'm going to be doing lots of measurements for these. I don't have to put batteries in them to get them to work. That's another good thing. And I got one there as well, look, because I wanted an analog meter. I got one of them first, you know, a year or so ago. But that doesn't feel, look, and just isn't one of these. These are benchmark multimeters for their time.  That's not bad at all. I hope you like the little look inside of their history here. Old time, old school instruments. I absolutely love them. Absolutely love them. And I don't mind having to recalibrate quite a lot. Even though you don't have to actually do it, once you've done it for the different resistances anyway, you've got three different parts for them. That's pretty much it. It is okay.   The old prongs look to connect to those fluffy bits of the lacquer there. It's lovely the way they're built. Absolutely lovely. Nowhere, I was whipping them through on a printed circuit board in the, you know, flow, flow soldered. This is all done by hand. Catch you in the next one, guys. I think it would be terrible of me if I didn't just throw this on at the end of this video on the everywhere. Well, maybe not. Maybe I should just do a, I don't know, I can't call it a tear down, because I'm not going to take anything apart from taking the case off. But it'd just be interesting to have a look at the inside of this, wouldn't it? Let me just take the case off for two minutes at the end of this AVO video. You know, as you can see on the back here, it's got a battery compartment. 1.5 volt, 1 volt battery is doing. It's not a great deal to, but it's functional. There's a, this bail is movable. Fuse compartment, probably not the greatest fuse. And then it's just in case you're trying to split it open. Now, I wouldn't have done the screws, at least it felt like they wouldn't have closed more. And then it's open. Oh, okay. And there we go. Enclosed. Nice. Let's see if we can just cut this. Okay. Well, I hope I can put it back together again. Doesn't look much to it, does it? And they say this thing can do 10 amps, 250 volts. Oh, sorry, 2,500 volts. It's got a, I wouldn't want to stick anything through that. I put it on my mains before. I don't think I'll be doing that again. That's a big difference, isn't it? To what's inside the AVO. At least this one is quite easy just to take apart and then put that together again. Even though, yeah, the AVO wasn't particularly difficult to do with the screws. Brilliant. So there you go. Very quick look at the inside of this. Just as a Monday comparison of something which is nowhere like the AVO. I'll add that onto the end. See you guys watching, guys.