OK, I confirm that you are live. Thank you. Thank you very much, Liam. No problem. So good morning everyone and welcome to the meeting of the licensing 2003 Act subcommittee to consider the application to various premises licensed for the wagon and horses in Linton. Can I apologise for the delay in the start of this meeting? We've had some difficulties with people joining, but I'm very glad to welcome the applicants and their legal representative to the hearing. That is Helen Hedge and is Andy Turner, Green King, and I believe we have Piers Warren as well. So the first thing we need to do though is we need to appoint a chair for the hearing. My name is Councillor Anna Bradnum. The other members of the panel present are, could I ask you, you've got your cameras on. Thank you. Our Councillor Deborah Roberts, who'd like to say hello. Good morning, Chairman. Good morning, everybody. Thank you. And Councillor Eileen Wilson. Good morning, I'm Councillor Eileen Wilson, District Councillor for Cottenham, Andrewampton. Thank you very much. So before we introduce ourselves further, panel members need to appoint a chair for this hearing. So, members, can I have a nomination for the, sorry, have you any nominations for the chair, please? Councillor Anna Bradnum, I would like to propose, please, to chair today's meeting. And I second that. Thank you very much. So I will accept the nomination to the chair. Thank you. Could I, just there are a number of officers present. I'd like to introduce them. We have, I'll take them in turn. So we have our legal advisor, Mr. Paul Weller. Good morning, everybody. My name's Paul Weller. Thank you very much. Nice to see you, Paul. Thank you. We have the licensing officer presenting the report. That is Miss Jane Jackson. Good morning. I'm Jane Jackson and I'm the licensing officer. Thank you very much. And we have a clock. Could I ask Victoria Wallace? Yep. Hello. I'm Victoria Wallace from Democratic Services, and my role here is to keep in note of the proceedings. Thank you very much. Okay. We also have our environmental health officer in the meeting who will present a little later on. So Miss Christie. Morning. My name's Suzanne Christie. I'm one of the EHOs in the environmental health team. Thank you very much. Thank you. Okay. So in a moment, I'll ask the licensing officer to present her report. I'll then invite the applicant to present their case. And the subcommittee will then be invited to ask questions of the applicant. Other representations will be then invited. We've had no representations from the police, but we do have, as I say, a representation from the South Cams District Council Environmental Health Officer. Just to confirm, Miss Jackson, we're not expecting any representations from the police, are we? No, we're not. Thank you. So then following those, and just to be clear, I will take those in the general collection of those people for the application, and then I will turn to the people who've said they wish to speak against the application. So following those representations, the members of the subcommittee will be invited to ask questions. And at the end of all of the discussions and questions, the hearing will close for the panel to conduct its deliberations in private. And at that point, the applicant, the legal representative, their legal representative, and the licensing officer will leave the hearing, and the live stream of the hearing will end. Then members of the panel will remain in the meeting to deliberate and reach a decision. The panel's legal advisor and the clerk will remain in the panel for its deliberations. Following those deliberations, all parties will be notified of the decision in writing, and this will be published on the council's website as soon as possible. So firstly, before we go any further, we need to consider whether anybody has any declarations of interest. Members, do you have any interest to declare in relation to this application? No interest. No interest. Thank you very much. And I have no interest either in this application. So could I ask the licensing officer, Mrs Jackson, to present her report please? Chairman, before you start on that, just to bring to your attention, we now appear to a visual of Michael Malone. We do, yes, but we've also got Echo. So can I just speak to Mr Malone briefly? Are you able to join us all hourly as well as visually on your computer now? I hope so, Madam. Can you hear me? Yes, I can. And that's much better. Thank you. I'm on my daughter's laptop. She saved the day. Brilliant. I should say the top of your head is cut off, so you might want to just angle it. That's better. Wonderful. Thank you. How nice. Thank you. I'm glad you were able to do that. Thank you very much. So many problems. That's all right. Don't worry. Thank you. Okay, so to the officer report then, please could I ask the licensing officer, Mrs Jackson, to present her report? The application to various premises licensed for the Wagonham Horses, 110 High Street, Linton, CB214JT, was received by the licensing department on September, sorry, 2020. The variation application includes varying the layout of the premises to include the addition of a marquee in the external area, an additional lawn area, and conversion of a storeroom into a serving hatch. Also includes the removal of existing conditions number three and number nine. Number three, no drinking outside between 23 hours and eight hours. Number nine, the DPS or the nominated representative shall carry out an hourly noise assessment at the boundary of the premises whilst regulated events are taking place in order to check that there is no noise nuisance arising from the regulated entertainment. It also includes the addition of some conditions. No drinking outside from midnight to 8 a.m. Noise checks to be carried out externally when regulated entertainment is provided and that a log will be kept to these checks. The application was sent to all responsible authorities for consultation, sorry, notification of the application was sent to 187 neighbouring properties. The blue notice was displayed in a prominent position and the notice was displayed in Cambridge Evening News. Representations have been received from Environmental Health and 21 interested parties. Members should be aware that when considering this application they may only take into consideration the parts of the application that represent the licensing objectives, which are the prevention of crime and disorder, public safety, the prevention of public nuisance, the protection of children from harm. Members have the right under the licensing act to determine this application after considering considering any relevant representations. Members may accept the proposed application as submitted, reject the application, agree the application but impose conditions that promote the relevant licensing objectives. All parties will maintain a right of appeal to magistrates court after determination of this committee. Thank you, Miss Jackson. Could I just clarify two points? One is that subsequent to the issue of the report members of the subcommittee panel have received and read a further 14 representations that were received which broadly supported the application. So they've come from the applicant solicitor, so they haven't come through as representations, they have come through as support to the application. Okay, thank you very much indeed. And also, can I just clarify that the terms of the new conditions that were added are as written on page 6 in our report and page 10 in the application, which was rather longer than the summarized version that you gave us. So the report was a brief, the agenda shows a brief of the additional conditions. Page 10 of the report is what they propose. Thank you. And one further clarification of that was that we have had an amendment to what the applicant are happy to accept, which is on... There's a change to the wording, so it's changing as a maximum the log will record, etc., to as a minimum the log will record the date and time of the check. These are the noise checks. And I think that was indicated to us on page 7 of the supplementary document that we received. Actually, I don't know, that doesn't refer to the... It's the wording is taken out, it says a recording of these assessments will be made to include the time and date of the assessment, the name of the person carrying out the assessment, a record of the assessment, including any sound level measurement taken, and if required any action taken. The records are to be kept at the premises and made available to the relevant statutory officers. That just takes out the word as a maximum. Okay, thank you very much, Ms Jackson. So, next step is then please, we have the next step is for the representation from the applicant. And I'm assuming that will be Mr Andy Turner? It'll be Mr Warren, if I may chair. I'm a solicitor representing Green King. Okay, that's fine. Thank you, Mr Warren. Could I just, before we go ahead, could I ask whether Andy Turner wishes to speak at the subsequent stage? Chair, both Helen Head and Andy Turner are here as witnesses to assist you. Should you have any queries that I can't answer on behalf of the applicant? So, I'll make the submissions and if you need to ask any questions that I can't answer, they'll be able to assist you. Okay, so they don't wish to make a representation on their own account? No, hopefully I'll be covering everything that they would wish to say. We have a small WhatsApp group set up so they can send me questions or comments as needed. Right, that's lovely. So you're speaking on behalf of them, they will answer questions. Thank you, that's really helpful. Okay, then Mr Warren, do please go ahead and make your presential case for the application. Thank you very much chair and good morning councillors and all the parties who have taken time out to be part of this process. Let me first say we do welcome all the comments from residents for and against these applications and I'm saying that on behalf of Green King and on behalf of Helen at the premises. We are always keen to learn where we can and these are very different situations to one that one would normally find themselves in making these applications so I will have to go through in a bit of detail at some points. In which case, can I just ask just very quickly, have you any idea how long your presentation is likely to take? Maximum 15 minutes chair if that's okay, if I can ask for that indulgency. Thank you. I will try and stick to that but please bear with me. I think the first thing to say and it just picks up on a point that you made chair, the letters in support clearly are not representations the ones that appear in our supplemental pack but they are there and can be taken into account and in fact should be taken into account in any deliberations. It's just simply the parties cannot make additional representations but the information there I think is very very useful and secondly I will be referring to the supplemental pack pages seven and eight for the conditions that I worked with Suzanne Christie from the environmental protection team to refine those conditions that she put forward in her original representation but I'll take you through those. If we start effectively pages five and six of your bundle set out the application, there's three parts to it if we want to think about it in those terms. There's the addition of the marquee outside, a new surveying hatch effectively outside and then the amendment of the conditions of which the one that is the most significant clearly is a request to extend the hours for which customers can use the external area currently permitted to 11 o'clock at night. We have proposed that actually the extension rather than being across all nights only is for Friday and Saturday nights and the Sunday nights prior to bank holiday Mondays so we're not proposing to amend the 11 o'clock current cutoff for customers being in the garden for Sundays through to Thursday so that is a significant change to the application. There are also as I've just referred to 14 additional conditions that we are proposing should you be minded to grant this application can be added to the license. Those are as I say pages seven and eight of the supplemental bundle and you'll find at page seven as well the difference in wording on the use of the garden by customers after 11 o'clock at the top of page seven so the proposal by environmental health and then our alternative proposal so hopefully that's very clear as to what we are proposing we've set out the where there's a difference and we've set out where we've come to some agreement should you be minded obviously to grant this application. I think there's two fundamental points we need to make clear at the outset here this is not an application to extend the hours for the sale of alcohol at the premises and this is certainly not an application to extend the hours for providing regulated entertainment outside. Those simply do not form part of this application and I think it's also worth noting at this point as well because feelings do run high and we fully accept this is not a review of the premises license. This is an application to vary the license and one has to look at obviously what we're looking to vary when one considers what you're determined to do here. We accept and this is on behalf of Helen and behalf of Green King that there has been some disturbance caused by the use of the garden for regulated entertainment in particular for music and then earlier on during the lockdown for the quiz and other activities I think bingo and we do apologise we don't want to cause disturbance but there are reasons that compelled us to carry out any of those activities outside that I'll go into in a bit of detail in a minute and indeed when complaints were first raised Helen did try and move the music into the marquee and out of the garden away from two of the neighbours who complained to her directly. This isn't a case where we say we've simply done nothing to try and meet residents halfway to try and find a compromise here. Compromise by its very nature does not appeal to everyone and there are wits who would say compromise appeals to no one or certainly doesn't satisfy anyone but we tend to take the view that actually these are very challenging times for everyone and one needs to consider where compromises and a little give and take can be made and we're very pleased to see actually that the residents who are objecting to this application also note that this is a difficult time for premises as well. We would also say this the summer months are now behind us the summer months are obviously the ones where use of gardens and having windows and doors open is going to conflict with any kind of noise from a pub or any other activity for that matter especially music but we are now entering a fairly cold snap if my house is anything to go by today and an ongoing winter where there are going to be restrictions on premises and we do need to reflect upon this and what that's likely to do for the operation of premises. As you know we're in a lockdown at the moment that's due to end on the 2nd of December we have no idea what the new tiering system is going to look like when we come out on the 2nd of December it may reflect what was in before it may not. There may be a 10 pm deadline reimposed on the operation of all premises there may not and there may be further lockdowns and all we know is this from experience and advising across the country on licensing matters during Covid there will be restrictions imposed by social distancing on premises and there will be a re-emphasis on the use of external space where possible to allow premises to continue to trade if they can and any entertainment candidate is likely to be significantly restricted especially for smaller premises and this was reflected in indeed in guidance very early on before the 4th of July reopening that from the home office that hospitality venues would have to put activities outside that usually they wouldn't this is likely to cause some tension and they hoped that actually that would be managed between the parties where it was possible to do so. I'm going to turn if I may to my supplemental bundle which you have seen and hopefully have had a chance to read and hopefully for the residents it sets out where we are. No one here is saying that the wagon and horses has been the perfect neighbour for residents in the village and were we all in a room together I'm sure that there would be some rice smiles from the residents who are objecting to this application to any suggestion that the pub has been anything other than that. We understand that licensed premises sit in their communities least premises so pubs that are run by tenants where such as this where Green King is the landlord the lessee has the right to run their business as they see fit and that can produce challenges where they don't do so in a manner that we would like them to do and indeed we were very very happy this is from Green King's perspective when Helen came forward and put forward a business plan as a resident of the village who wanted to save the pub she came to this as an outsider to the pub industry wanting to save the premises that was otherwise sliding inexorably I'm afraid to being another fail pub we have worked with her money was invested in the premises a significant amount of money invested to try and assist her and and indeed from her opening the pub in January until she had to close because of Covid in March it appeared we were certainly on the right tracks and certainly when one looks at the letters and the other comments one can say that in the main people are very impressed by the job she's done it's even reflected indeed in some of the representations against this application at page 51 and page 58 of the bundle I don't tend to take you through all these comments I'll just refer to them but there are comments there that actually recognise that attempts have been made and indeed Helen and her team have done very well in if you like re-establishing the pub from from where it once sat that 14 residents took time to write in support of this premises I'm going to ask you to take into serious consideration because it does demonstrate and when one looks through those representations quite how much of a sea change has been able to be made very very quickly in it effectively rather than addressing the representations themselves I will just refer to some of the comments from residents who if you like are putting the other side of the pub if you like as a counterpoint so page 15 there is a representation there that talks about the very real Covid security measures that are put in place how people feel very safe and secure and something to come up page 17 makes reference to the antisocial behaviour that is that has very much been reduced since Helen has taken on the pub page 21 is a long and very useful document that actually refers to improvements in making the pub safe and secure for a single female who feels that she can go there and very much appreciates the entertainment that's provided on the basis that actually living on your own candidly in times of Covid has been a very serious problem for some people for their mental health so there is a sense of supporting the premises here this isn't if you like a local boozer as it may once have been it does provide community activities and these are activities that they put on because members of the community do ask for them and that's why there is this support for the pub and I think all this needs to be taken into account in terms of provision of music in the garden I think it's fair to say it is legal it's perfectly legal under the live music app 2012 it is something that can be put on and indeed Helen sought advice beforehand from officers to see what she couldn't do she would have she is entitled actually to have music until 11 o'clock at night outside as part of the live music app but chose to limit it obviously the music was played at on Saturday nights which was decided was the better time but ended around 10 o'clock we understand that the balance here needs to be worked on in terms of ensuring residents feel that the music isn't overpowering or overwhelming winter candidly will help but if we are in this situation this horrible situation with COVID going into next spring and summer where people want to use their gardens and and sit outside with windows open then then obviously one will need to look at the structure of how that could work so that residents feel that what is being put on is fair and proportionate the reality and I want to make this very clear is that when we're over this situation and when music can be put on back inside again that is Helen's intentions we have tried to make it clear that occasionally in the summer she may want to put on community events that may have an element of music but these would be on limited occasions very limited occasions and would be in line with her discussions with neighbors and residents around to try and strike the right balance there the use of the marquee as an external drinking area let me let me put this in context for you the capacity inside the premises to be COVID secure is around 40 that is an unworkable capacity and and by the way that's a capacity if all the restrictions are under kind of tier one or potentially tier two not not the more draconian restriction so we're looking at maximum inside capacity of 40 that simply is not workable in terms of staff management and and actually keeping a premises open the marquee adds as a seated area under the same restrictions somewhere around 46 seats COVID secure so you can see that actually the marquee effectively doubles the usable size of the premises over the winter which is key frankly if we are in a position to reopen for the premises to do so safely and to stand a chance of all the work that Helen put in in taking on the premises in January to be able to bear fruit and for there to be a successful and viable business coming out the other side of it as you have seen in the letter if you're minded to grant the application for the marquee it is intended to put a slightly more secure structure on which has thicker doors and walls which obviously will help dead noise but as we say with the winter being there closed windows lack of use of garden we suspect that actually it should be perfectly manageable for any infrequent entertainment to be outside I just want to address you quickly on the the other contentious part of the application which is this some extra hour for drinking on a Friday and Saturday now so extra hour outside for drinking on Friday and Saturday this doesn't extend the hours for the use of the premises itself it's simply a management tool which would very much assist in terms of managing customers away from the premises during COVID what one usually does in the pub trade when you have a restriction on the use of the garden is at if it's an 11 o'clock restriction at 10 to 11 you go outside and you tell everyone they need to get inside in the next 10 minutes you simply can't do that under COVID because obviously you have capacity limits you have to wait till tables become free you've got to sanitize tables so what you end up doing effectively is going outside and saying right at 11 o'clock if you there's no space inside you're out you've got to go home that in and of itself creates issues the 10 o'clock closure time if you've looked at any of the press or seen any of the footage from towns cities villages caused havoc is the best way to describe it. Chucking everyone out on the streets was an anathema that was to be avoided and caused the licensing act in 2003 to come into force to remove what was an 11 p.m closure for all pubs and to have a more staggered approach more open-minded approach 10 p.m shows quite how bad it can be 11 o'clock is problematic and has been problematic so what we want to do is not put more customers outside after 11 o'clock there is a condition on the license that prevents new customers entering the premises after 11 what we want to do is allow those people who are outside who will not be able to get inside so people in the marquee or people who are sitting outside to finish their drinks in their own time and if tables become available be able to use them inside if not to leave when they finish their drinks it's quite simply a management tool that would help us to promote the licensing objectives in terms of stopping people standing outside having their last night you know that their chats before they go home on the high street all those kind of things that we want to stop by having a quick dispersal can be done by actually allowing people to stay at their seats in the garden that little bit longer we think Friday and Saturday nights obviously are the busiest so that's where it's the most important which is why we happily gave up the other days to try and give some comfort to residences to the reasons why we're doing these things and I think we need to say this if at the end of Covid wherever that comes likely the middle of next year at the earliest if there are problems of management if there are no regard for residents and if the operation actually produces bad behaviour customers don't react in a way that they have seemed to do since Helen's taken on the premises residents have a right to review the premises license this is not a review this is an application as I've said before to to vary the license and I've set out the reasons why we're applying for it what cannot happen at this hearing as in respectfully what is not allowed in law is to remove any of the rights or privileges that the license currently provides for for the reasons I've set out and the live music act 2012 as much as I know councillors up and down the country feel it's been a real bane to the balance between residents and operators as to where they can have live music in and of itself can only be removed or restricted by a review of the license the reason I mentioned this is because I don't think any of those things really are where we will be next year Helen has said quite categorically she wants to put music and entertainment back inside when she can she's worked very hard to turn the premises around and we were pleased to see that people recognise that and the only reason we're here is Covid the only reason that we need to make this application is Covid the least contentious part of the application which is the hatch to have a service area outside actually in and of itself promotes the licensing objectives because it creates it prevents pinch points around doorways of people coming and going and indeed provides a supervision point outside to look over the garden the other two more contentious points I have set out in some detail why we believe they can and should be granted in these circumstances chair thank you over a little bit but I'd invite any questions you may have at that stage thank you I have some observations and some questions so firstly can I just check with you my understanding is that for the because currently the license issued in April requires all the regulated entertainment to be indoors and I know I understand that there was some concern raised about that when when that condition was put on in for the April approval approval but what I wanted to check was so have all the events that have been happening with music outdoors we saw about a stage outdoors have they all had 10s associated with them no chair the live music act 2012 grants a right for live music to be held outside irrespective of whether it's a right to actually grant it on the premises license itself and that was a right that Helen discussed with the officers to formulate what could and couldn't be done and that in the main is the right I understand that has been used here so it's it's technical and I apologize but I helped write like the live music act so I do have some significant understanding of it there is a workplace exemption and within that workplace exemption pub gardens are considered workplaces which allow live music irrespective of the license fine I understand that I just wanted to check whether they had issued 10s for them or whether they had just done it as a under the live music act my understanding is live music act okay so but um what we have witnessed is that the the outworking of that has been that a lot of the neighbors have found the music as you said quite problematic um in the ways that we've encountered through their representation um so and as you say it is problematic because it it doesn't necessarily achieve the balance that's necessary in a particular location okay so the second thing is that you've you've emphasized that you're only doing this or the application is only coming in in this format because of covid but of course any license granted is permanent and it doesn't last for the length of time that we have covid it's a permanent arrangement um and uh I have another question which I think I will direct to the legal advisor later so members do you have any other questions have you any questions yes both of you have hands up so councillor wilson would you like to go ahead with your questions to mr warn yes um my first question is of all those um letters in support of the changes how many of those people can you tell me actually live in vicinity to the the premises um I I can't give you a definitive number but I can tell you that a number of them actually refer to them living within the vicinity of the premises themselves um most of the customers since the changes have been made to the premises are local and indeed Helen has to keep records obviously under the covid track and trace system so so she knows where her customers are coming from and most of them are local and indeed the people who chose to write to her are tend to be those people she knows she's lived in the village for so long thank you okay I'll come back with another question after councillor Roberts no no do go ahead with your second question like my second question was um that obviously the marquee takes up what was parking spaces is there any um are there any numbers about the numbers of cars that would normally have parked there before who would now where the owners have been now be parking on the street and therefore coming out late at night with doors banging and so on it's it's it's a difficult question and it's one that we've explored so so bear with me and let me let me give you the best answer we can on this um Helen open the premises or reopen the premises in January and January to March obviously um set about making changes to how the premises operated which was not long enough for for us to be able to give you a a sense of exactly how many people would have parked um the point we would make is this that there has been a sea shift towards more the pub being serving its local community so a lot more people are coming from the local community than used to come which by its nature reduces car parking space we have a slight other problem here in linton which is that there are three pubs all of which put marquees on car parking spaces um which means if you were to do a survey of people off the village and whether this has caused them more problems of people parking in other places we wouldn't necessarily be able to tell which premises they came from indeed actually one of the pubs is a food pub which tends to bring more families and people who may drive together and another one actually has accommodation so again one could get drivers coming there so it's very difficult to say I think what we can say is that as things stand at the moment we do not expect there to be a significant number of people coming to the premises who would drive at the moment next year when we if we get to a serious situation where we're back to some kind of normality and it's quite clear that our customers are very mind they will tell us first if they're frustrated there's no parking um and can't come in then we can make an assessment about the use of the marquee going forward um candidly people like to sit outside in the summer don't like to sit in a marquee in the summer this has been very much to deal with the code the question was do you know how many cars parked in there before and it seems to me the answer is no we don't know how many cars picked in there parked in there before so Councillor Roberts oh sorry Councillor Wilson had you finished your questions okay thank you Councillor Roberts thank you very much chairman um who you but Mr Warren chairman um Mr Warren the the fact is that the um premises license that was um given in only in April very clearly indicates that what was uh approved which was um recorded music um live music or recorded music in dual but I know you are um wandering off onto the um other um things that may um actually change that but that's what they were given um approval for and so clearly um it seems to me they're reading the uh representations against but that has caused considerable amount of concern annoyance and problems and if we were to go along with this then one could only assume that that problem and concern will continue um and when you talk about um the public eternal capacity now being for 40 people but this will be another 46 people that actually is a fair amount of people in any public house I mean um seems to me I'm not quite sure that you actually have supported that 40 people inside does not make it uh un un un um un financially viable um and to say another 46 people outside in a garden that is very close to other properties residential properties is surely by its very nature going to be what we are looking at which is actually causing a public notice okay thank you cancer Robert let's get Mr Warren to answer that I'm not sure I think the question there was the the the observation that whilst the live music act allows it clearly music outside has caused upset to the neighbors and the question was you said that the internal capacity is only 40 using covid compliance and that means that the pub isn't viable without the addition of extra customers outdoors can you just address those points please of course let me let me start with the internal capacity point and it's a capacity point that comes up irrespective of covid or any any other means when you calculate the maximum capacity it is a the case in point that you've never reached maximum capacity um when you're talking about sitting down venues like this especially under covid regulations because each table can only hold the number of people that are allowed there with proper social distancing so if a table could hold four people if you only have a group of two people you're halving the capacity for that table so one has to be very careful when one says the capacity it's an indicative figure so if you say the maximum is 40 the reality is that there's likely to be less people significantly inside and you can see that actually when you're not providing food and bearing in mind food has a large markup you you very quickly come to an unfeasible position in terms of being able to sustain staff opening costs etc and actually quickly you need to look at whether you follow everyone and what you need to do so that's why this is essential on the public nuisance point and as unpopular as this may sound it's behoven upon me to say it not all music outside is by its nature of public nuisance and not all noise and disturbance by its very nature is a public nuisance the whole point about this is the balance of the matter now the license you're saying is was granted in april 2020 but it has conditions on it that have been on there before the live music act existed before and indeed things changed on the fourth of july in terms of how premises could open the regulations were released the week before then and the guidance was released about three three days from what i remember before the fourth of july and it became very very clear that no entertainment at all was to be permitted inside at that time so everything had to be done outside and as i say the home office made it very clear that they understood this might cause some tension but they hoped that people would work together to try and find a way a balance for these things so the starting point is not music outside must by its very nature if it causes nuisance be a public nuisance because there is a public benefit that you'll have seen in some of the other representations but we accept that it wasn't properly managed to begin with we also accept that in the summer months it's much more difficult when people are outside in their gardens etc and that's something we can learn from going into next year into spring and summer but during the winter with a marquee with a structure that will mitigate noise nuisance we can work on whether entertainment times need to be changed to benefit people if we're even allowed to do it there is every chance that there might be a 10 o'clock restriction anyway you'll see in some of the presentations that those times have been mentioned that it was better when it finished at nine o'clock maybe that's something we look at as well but can I just with your permission Mr Warren can I ask Councillor Roberts what it is you want to say of course thank you thank you very much chairman sorry to interrupt in that manner but I was getting a little frustrated it's surely a fact that there are premises all over England and I've got them in my own ward where they are putting up marquees but actually there's no music going on I mean what is the necessity to actually put music into these buildings with respect Councillor I'm not sure that we're discussing different things here many marquees have gone up and many marquees have had music in them across the country in fact many many pubs have put entertainment outside their premises as well I deal with national clients such as Green King Punch Hawthorne around the country so I can speak from significant experience that this summer has seen a dramatic increase in music and entertainment being put outside because it's the only place it could be um sorry Karen the point I was going to make is that there is a balance to be struck here and obviously there are places where residents have taken different views as to how they wish to accept their pubs doing these kind of activities and I'm not saying one's right and one's wrong each individual application needs to be looked at on its merits and each premises needs to be looked out on its merits I think it's somewhat rude for you to tell the people of Linton that they have to accept anything um Councillor Roberts thank you if I may just interject um I think my observation you said it yourself Mr. Warren that the live music act was already in place when this license issued in April 2020 was issued and in that license it still said that live music should be indoors and uh stop at 11 o'clock now even though the live music regulations had been issued now so and I think I suspect that's because it recognised the very particular location of this pub in amongst other residential houses which are not um you know some distance away outside a garden you know some with some considerable space between them these are gardens that back straight on to the back of this premises and dwellings that join it immediately and I do wonder if that's partly why the license conditions were drawn up like that because they recognised that even though there there was permission or there was an allowance for it that actually they recognised in this circumstance it could be quite um disturbing for the neighbours and that's why those conditions were applied and indeed um I understand when the current license arrangements were put in place and indeed the conditions which we see on our page 37 of the agenda it made it quite clear at condition six all doors and windows should be kept closed and condition eight you know that seven was a maximum of two regulated entertainment events per week with some flexibility and then all regulated events shall cease at 11 except for New Year's Eve and that there was going to be an hourly noise assessment now uh it's it's obvious to me that all of those conditions were put in place because they recognised that noise in this location could be very problematic for the neighbours um so also I'm I know again you've referred to it being under COVID but once the license is granted it's permanent um and so we need to be mindful of the future as well um so my my understanding is that if we accept if we were minded to accept and I'm not saying we necessarily are I'm just saying if we were minded to accept the plan that has been submitted at B indicates the new um licensed premises which includes the marquee now is the are we to understand from that that the applicants wish the marquee to be considered to be indoors or still to be an outside an outdoor location it's it would be considered outdoors legally um the the reality is and I just want to come back to the point that the council was making earlier apologies if anyone thinks I'm being rude at telling people in Linton what they shouldn't shouldn't accept I'm clearly not doing that I do not accept that that is what I'm doing no and for for the for clarity my it is not my understanding that's what you're doing either so I accept your your reservations on that um I the the point the point I I have to make and I said it wouldn't be a popular point and and you know that's that's my job here is to express and explain why things are as they are um what is permitted in law and what is permitted to be done the they the the break it eights of entertainment outside they have they've had one music event a week so that in and of itself does not reach condition seven the music and the regulator's entertainment that's been held this year has ceased by 11 o'clock so they're not breaching that condition either the only thing that has changed is that entertainment had to be put outside now in april that wasn't understood in april we were in the middle of a lockdown and the government hadn't actually given us any regulation at that point at all as to what any opening would look like um that changed very briefly before the fourth of july opening um and premises all had to make determinations as to what they would and wouldn't do could and couldn't do and how they should do it helen took advice from your officers as to what she would be permitted to do um and it was expressed to her that she could have live music outside um so in a legal sense that's the starting point the the fact of the matter is we're not changing that legal parameter here there is nothing we can do about the live music act here at all that when you seek your own legal officers advice on that the live music act regulations can only be changed on a review of a premises license what we want to do here is try and express those bits that we think don't shouldn't affect residents that is having a marquee outside for customers to sit in um thank you yes i think we understand that okay um i have one more question for mr warn but do do other members of the panel yes chancella wilson do you want to go ahead oh you've just muted yourself again can you hear me yeah um one of the things that i i read from the complaints is the amount of bass that is accompanies this music and and from personal experience i know that can be very very irritating and very disruptive to family life and people's lives in their home so um what sort of music is there any um forethought about the sort of music that could be provided that would perhaps be less irritating and disturbing to to the neighbours i think that that's an incredibly fair question and the reality is i can tell you what they have had on there's been um an elvis tribute um they've they've had single guitarist singer guitarist um a saxophonist who played with an accompanying singer uh there was one event that one could call if you like a band a rock band that was played from six to eight p.m so it didn't even go later so that if you like recognize that it was in a different category um so there is if you like a uh an attempt to recognize that certain music is probably more fitting than elsewhere and and you're right about the bass one of the things that we have put in our letter and we would be happy to disclose to and share with your environmental protection officers are the checks that are carried out at the boundaries of the premises um they demonstrate that early from july um what the levels were because there's a sound recorder with that as well so the sound recording decibel levels i mean they do show that after i think about august um those levels came down so after the complaints were received they have tried to reduce the music levels um bass can obviously be looked at as well all these things can be looked at and with a new marquee structure one would look at how the sound was attenuated by that and you could try and improve it um that way what i would say about music is it's always subjective because i'm not sure i would particularly appreciate an elvis tribute band but on the other hand might quite like a guitarist but um other people have different views so so there's a an element to do all of the style of music is subjective but actually bass goes with everything so i'm just wondering do you have have you discussed with the has the applicant discussed with the environmental health officer whether the applicant would be prepared to consider putting all sound through a noise limiter noise in a marquee um the noise limiter could be very expensive um and indeed the guidance under the licensing act makes it clear that that should really be a an imposition of last resolved um if there can't be other measures so so i think our starting point would be with the new marquee where you minded to grant it and any music events going forward because Helen obviously needs to take a decision uh after today as to whether there's value in putting them on how often uh what times etc um in light of any comments that the residents make or comments that you make um but yeah it would be considered but it would be considered as a point of last resort if other measures mitigation measures didn't work so for instance if it was contained by the new structure in any event one wouldn't need to do so um a condition that required it would i would say at this point be a disproportionate i effectively would stop her doing the music because of the cost of installing a sound system into a marquee which is the way a noise limiter works you have to put up microphones at certain points they need to be checked um it's much easier inside a premises it'll be difficult in a marquee as i understand it some can simply limit the amount of power that goes to the system from a central point so um well there's two types of noise limiter i i can talk to you about them technically actually all of them require a an assessment of the noise level and all of them require equipment to be fitted through all the music goes or which cuts out electricity which is yeah yes precisely okay so the other question i wanted to ask was um if it seems to me that the the applicant recognizes that that noise is a problem and so can i just clarify what sorry so if we go to page 10 on our agenda which was the original application and the variations on it uh so what was the purpose well firstly is the proposed new condition around sound checks is that still what you're prepared to do because i can't see it in your supplementary so is that so the first question is is that proposed on page 10 under to add the following conditions the third or the second bullet is that still what is proposed and if so can you explain what is the benefit or justification for doing that rather than what you are currently required to do um it it was with the best will in the world an attempt to clarify a condition that otherwise had a little it was a little bit wooly if i can put it that way the reality is though that in discussion with your environmental protection officer condition three of page seven of the supplemental bundle would replace that condition so that's the one you mentioned earlier in your introduction so that would replace it which actually has the requirement to do the checks at boundaries of the premises so effectively you have to walk around and do the checks and you have to make record the events and you need to make those available so that is that's great thank you for clarifying that but also can i just ask when that is done who and it might be to the legal advisor this question but and and i must remind members we are still in the question of seeking clarification from the applicant um but i would just like to ask either you or um legal advisor who determines what's an acceptable level um i i can tell you from uh the point of view of having dealt with this on reviews and various other sort of some and appeals indeed this is this is the perennial question because what one person considers to be an appropriate level is not what someone else sitting in their garden across the wall might consider to be appropriate it and that is the problem so actually in recording the levels what you're doing is you're making a substantive and subjective recording level that an officer can come along and say right we've been in this person's house it is too loud you need to reduce it by four or five decibels that allows them to do that but it's always i'm afraid going to be slightly subjective to begin with okay so the implication is that you make recordings you keep them recorded and then if somebody complains you can go to those recordings to say okay well on Thursday night that was obviously too loud for the neighbour on this side and and that allows you when you sorry i was going to say that allows you when you go back the next week if you have any more entertainment to say i already know this is going to be too loud at this boundary i will make them turn down okay and councillor roberts did you have a point on that a question on that point i've got a note another point chairman that i don't think we've said much amount is now but i would like some understanding of it um what's been requested um is that for those couple of days extra now that the drinking outside goes to midnight from 11 p.m closure to midnight um now i would ask and suggest that another hour of being allowed to drink out in the um back garden area um will be um probably very problematic because as people drink more um they tend to get louder and noisier and i'm at a bit of a loss to understand i think the argument was made that well if you throw everybody out at the same time they all congregate outside well i think that maybe goes for clubbing um and those sort of big in a city public houses but i'd be very surprised if um village pups would have the same problem so you're asking councillor roberts it's really i'm at a loss to understand why the request is to add another hour and again and i repeat a lot about consideration and and trying to be helpful to each other but i wonder you know has it been thought of the effect of the neighbors okay so mr warn perhaps you could address that question of course um let's let's start with the congregating outside actually the representations that have been made by residents expressing concerns actually express some concerns about previous times where congregation outside has been a problem so actually um at that point it has has been addressed councillor roberts and you can see that there is an issue where people do congregate it's about trying to move people on quickly and quietly at the end of the night when and it's much easier to do it when they're ready to go the the reality of why we're doing this here is because we cannot do what one would normally do as i expressed earlier which is just tell everyone to go inside um we can't do that because of the covid um uh issues and and trying to get everyone inside so actually what you're left with is people who um are looking to finish their drinks being hurried and rushed and then they go you push them all out onto the road and they wait around they talk to each other finish their conversation trying to avoid it we're not putting additional people out into the garden it'll just be a slower um dispersal the point about people creating more noise as they as the evening goes on and they've had more to drink is a perfectly valid point but that goes down to management of the premises and that's where i i urge you to look at the letters from the residents who are supporting um the operation of the premises because they make it very clear and in no uncertain terms that any problems that they've witnessed at the premises have been dealt with very quickly um without disturbing other residents without deserving other customers and in a very professional manner um management of people outside can be achieved um it's a case of doing it properly sorry but if you could just mike i will reiterate the question from council robinson a slightly different way and that is what you have said just now just if we look at the extra hour drinking outside it has the request is to extend it from 11 until midnight and the only justification i have heard from that is that it's much easier to move people on when they're ready to go so actually what you're doing is um allowing the um customers to determine what goes on rather than what what the licensing authority or what what might be reasonable for the neighbors so what if if people are drinking outside in the marquee what is wrong with them knowing that they must drink up by 11 o'clock no you're you're you're right you're absolutely right i'm i'm not disputing that but i would i would make two points though first of all customers being inside a marquee are less likely because of the noise attenuation to be of any disturbance anyone um customers sitting outside at the tables many people do not want to be outside late at night in any event because of the cold etc and as the nights um you know people like to be inside it's just that it assists with the management tools um we wouldn't be here asking for those additional hours only on the friday and saturday now by the way and the sunday prior to bank holiday mondays i appreciate that flex but i mean you could put a load of signs up on the inside of the marquee saying remember folks drinking up time in here is 11 o'clock yeah absolutely and that's the time that they'll be sent home what we're looking to do is try and flex and manage the situation that's presented to us it's you know it's not for me to tell you how that you know whether you wish to grant that or not all i can do is um tell you why we're doing it why we've made this application it's been made in good you know made with all intention it's not to do anything untoward absolutely and the other thing is you've said you've said um it would appear you have some experience of um outdoor music my impression is that a marquee would do very little to to attenuate noise outside and i'd be interested to know what your view is of that i wouldn't have thought a marquee does very much at all to prevent noise um going outside well there's there's different types of marquee um so so first of all over the summer the open sided marquee quite rightly would not attenuate very much noise is the truth of it but but the structure that is being considered here with kind of more solid side walls of it would be an enclosed structure which would have an attenuating effect um and certainly does obviously what you need to do is make sure doors and windows are kept shut etc on the marquee but but we we are convinced it will have a an effect if it doesn't have an effect and if music still causes nuisance to residents then obviously we will work with them to try and agree whether there is anything that would be appropriate um there are some residents who seem to to to say and and it's perfectly within their right to say no music outside at all that that's their baseline we don't want any music outside helen met with some of those residents themselves and they expressed it no uncertain terms we just simply do not want you to do this at all despite her explaining why and that it was only for this duration of this crisis um there are others I would presume have a would be willing to to be a bit more flexible about that if it could be worked out how how it can be done effectively okay right so so basically you the proposed marquee is of a more substantial construction than what is currently there which I visited last night so uh we're talking about a marquee with slightly more substantial sides which might actually reduce the noise a little bit okay I think if unless and if unless panel members have any other questions I think I'd like to go on to the can I just make an observation yes certainly thank you very much chairman um when I've been uh you know reading these over the last few days what's also struck me is that um there are three parts to the noise problem there is the amount of people the fact that it's a flimsy uh a flimsy type building but there's also um um the fact that there's comment in author about they there is an author added noise because there is a heating system in there which um also is generating a noise a bit so and I think that what these will will be the point that will be very much in mind by four points the music if you know five the amount of people and this is all new what what we need to remember here which I don't think Mr. Warren is actually really quite understandably not taking up very much is the fact that all these different um particles of this situation are all completely new and this isn't what uh was uh thought through when we were you know putting the original license on which was for much more consideration thank you chairman thank you councillor Roberts councillor Wilson do you have any further questions for Mr. Warren no okay well thank you very much indeed uh Mr. Warren I appreciate you answering our questions so thoroughly um so I would now like to ask um we we invite the authorities and we know we have the environmental health officer here so could I ask Ms. Christie to give her report please good afternoon councillor Bradnan thank you for the time um so my initial representation memo that was sent to the licensing department is as I will say now and then obviously post that time I've had discussions with the applicant around making amendments to my conditions um but I'll I'll refer to the representation memo as it stood at the time so the application to vary the current premises license relates to extending the drinking hours in the outdoor area of the premises um I'm aware that formal complaints relating to alleged public noise nuisance linked to activities of these premises have been received by this department in recent months and in the past the most recent complaints appear to relate to alleged loud music and amplified sound possibly originating from the use of the outdoor area of the premises the premises also appear to be surrounded by residential properties having reviewed the details of the proposed variation outlawed within part two variation of the application um the recent history of the alleged public nuisance issues of premises the existing premises license and conditions on the location pattern I am making a representation um in relation to this application with regards to the prevention of public nuisance and um public safety and the prevention and protection of children from harm in relation to the prevention of public nuisance um I have um suggested that um the inclusion of the following conditions will greatly assist in promoting the licensing objectives so in relation to um in the area subject to the application to vary the premises license um no alcohol sales supply or consumption to take place in outdoor areas the premises between 2300 hours and 0800 hours prominent clear and eligible notices to be displayed reminding users that the premises are located in close proximity to noise sensitive dwellings and requesting users to respect the needs of nearby residents when using outdoor areas and to leave the premises and area quietly and in a timely manner whenever regulated entertainment takes place in the outdoor areas of the premises a noise assessment will be carried out with the boundary of the premises by the designated premises supervisor or their nominated representative and record and records of these assessments to be made um to include the date and time the assessment the name of the person carrying out the assessment a record of the assessment including any sound level measurements taken and if required any action taken records are to be kept at the premises and made available to relevant statutory officers upon request no movement of refuse bins alcohol related refuse um in the outdoor areas and less than an emergency between 2300 hours and 0800 hours uh drae and other related deliveries or collections to not be made um at the premises between 2300 hours and 0800 hours any external lighting including any float lighting or sensor lighting to be directed away from neighboring residential properties and lit only during operational hours all premises doors and windows to be kept closed except to allow for access and egress from the premises or in emergencies um all premises doors to be soft and self-closing to um avoid using external doors overlooking noise sensitive premises up to 2200 hours um if providing an outdoor smoking area to locate it away from noise sensitive premises um there was an amendment to um point seven just say that should have read all external premises and doors to be kept closed I was not um asking for all internal doors and windows and windows to be kept closed so moving on to public safety um I requested that all drinks to be served in glass containers sorry all no drinks to be served in glass containers for consumption in outdoor areas drinks to be served in polycarbonate plastic or shatterproof containers for consumption in outdoor areas um a logbook to be kept at the premises to include every occasion identifying date and time where there's been a refusal to sell alcohol and any antisocial behavior relating to alcohol sales um all safety certificates and inspection reports to be kept to the premises are made available to officers of relevant statutory officers um upon request all relevant staff are to be appropriately well trained in relation to age restricted policy um establishing age not serving alcohol to intoxicated persons etc and then in relation to protection of children from harm to ensure that appropriate and suitable nationally recognized age verification policy to be adopted and maintained in place such as the challenge 25 policy um the sale and supply of alcoholic premises is to be carried on in accordance with the age verification policy and children are to be supervised and not left unaccompanied whilst in the outdoor areas during the hours um where the premises are open for sale supply and consumption of alcohol um that was submitted um prior to the um application time um since then I've had conversations with um Mr Pips Warns in relation to um for the applicant um in relation to those conditions and I have agreed the following with him obviously they are recommended to the licensing authority to take on board I am not the licensing authority so I can't require them but they are conditions that I'm supporting for the licensing authority to consider taking on board um if the outcome to this is that the um application to vary is approved with or without additional conditions so these read um I think you've had a copy of them but I'll just go through um the first request of the applicant um to extend hours from 2300 to um midnight Sunday um prior to a bank holiday Fridays and Saturdays um I have not agreed with the um applicant so I've stuck with my initial condition that no alcohol sale supply or consumption to take place in outdoor areas the premises between um 2300 hours and oh 800 hours so just just sorry to interrupt but so we're looking at page seven of the supplementary document so what you're saying is that you're sticking with the proposal by environmental health as you made originally and you are not supporting the alternative proposal from the applicant uh I'm not that's correct um on point one which is um prevention of public nuisance in relation to the extension of hours outdoors yes that's from yeah from 11 to midnight thank you um subsequently I have agreed um a number of things so moving forward these are the um conditions if accepted that I would be happy to put forward so um number two is pretty much the same as the initial conditions I've just added all exits and within the car park um the prominent clear and legible notices are to be displayed number three um is the same as the initial conditions in relation to the noise assessment to be taken to be carried out at the boundary of the premises as opposed to where noise sensitive properties would be it would have to be at the boundary um number four is the same in relation to refuse bins these three and four were not contested by the applicant um number five I've been happy to amend the dre deliveries from between um 2300 hours and oh 800 hours which was my initial I've agreed 2300 hours and oh 700 hours um to accommodate dre deliveries first thing in the morning um number six was not contested by the applicant um number seven I amended myself for the all external doors and windows as I've said uh number eight was um not contested either yeah again it's the exception of it being external premises doors to be soft and self-closing um I think um yeah so I think that was as it was actually councillor Braden but if not yes sorry my mistake yeah it was point seven which I had to exclude I'd missed out the external um point number nine um I agreed to amend um to ensure that it's actually a management issue so if they do provide a designated smoking area outdoors then it's managers who will have to to try and manage persons to prevent them from causing a public nuisance rather than the location of the um designated smoking area um and I think that's probably better a better way of reading it so that was something that was um suggested by the applicant and agreed by me um nothing in points 10 11 and 12 in relation to public safety were contested by the applicant and nothing in points 13 14 and 15 were contested um by the applicant the only thing there were two points that we agreed that I agreed to remove from public safety and that was that um no drinks had to be served in glass containers outdoors and that drinks um should be instead served in polycarbonate plastic or shatterproof containers the applicant asked me if I would be happy you're satisfied to remove those two conditions um based on um financial costs for the applicant and I agree to those because there's been no evidence in any um any complaints that there have been issues with um noise from smashing glass um and I'm not aware of any riddle complaints that have come through in relation to injuries from smashed glass so in this instance I was happy to remove those two conditions thank you and uh there was no contention about the protection of children from harm okay thank you very much indeed for summarizing that so helpfully for us all right do does anybody have any questions of the environmental health officer and this would remember this is simply on matters of um advice it's not uh obviously you know the circumstances so Councillor Wilson um some of the people objecting to this um application have suggested that uh the noise of the music disturbs children going to sleep at night would that come within the protection of children from harm if they're if um they're prevented from getting up to sleep at a reasonable um um not as far as I'm aware Councillor Wilson that would fall under public nuisance protection of children from harm is more around um underage drinking people buying alcohol for people who are underage or people who are underage buying alcohol um and um yeah yeah okay thank you may I uh may I ask a question um just just one moment um sorry is that Mr Godsell yes that's right yes um can I just ask um Councillor Roberts do you have any questions for Miss Christie um just about a quick one um please chairman um can Miss Christie tell us um how many people actually prior just you know you actually got the figures of how many people may have made representation prior um to this actual situation in other words when people were getting concerned how many people were actually contacting the authority to say that they were concerned thank you Councillor Roberts um yeah so I had a look prior to the hearing obviously I had a look at the time that I was doing my representation but I had a look to refresh my memory prior to the hearing this morning um we've had um two noise complaints this year one of which came in um the beginning of October in relation to um concerns they had about um noise created in August and September um a um a diary and a letter was sent to the complainant and it doesn't appear from the records that we've had that returned um and a letter was sent to the licency saying that they'd had a complaint about noise music but noise relating to that um the other one was made in August in relation to um music outdoors and that was dealt with by a colleague of mine and I think that might be the one that um the applicant referred to where um the licency had been in contact with other people so this year we've had two one in October and one in August and prior to that we don't have any noise complaints on record um we've had a couple of temporary event notice applications um this summer and there is there is nothing sorry did and could I clarify you've had did you say two temporary event notices yeah we've had um there was one in on the 24th of July which was looking to um it was in relation to a solo single person singing okay and the one in um I think that one I think the two are related because that's the 17th of July I think they've been put on the system okay right so yeah thank you just that answer your question Councillor Roberts yes thank you very much chairman okay thank you right so um so Mr Godsell you said you would like to ask the environmental health officer a question uh yeah so just a point of fact really I think my representation does mention broken glass and I've recently had to sweep up broken glass to prevent dogs getting injured on the pavement early in the morning um it's not regularly a problem but it's it is mentioned as a as a possible thing that's all our apologies for that um Mr Godsell well I suppose if Mr Godsell didn't report it then you wouldn't have seen it so thank you very much Mr Godsell for that extra information okay right so um um does anybody else in this meeting uh have any question for the environmental health officer no I can't hear anybody so I will move on then um thank you very much Ms Christie so um we have a number of people um who want to object and I'm going to ask the parish council Councillor Bald first and then I will ask the individuals if they would speak so Councillor Bald you were going to object to this application are you there uh I am indeed I can just um I didn't know if there were other people who were going to speak no there are no other um well actually what I should say you're quite yes it's quite right we have no local members wishing to speak on this so um it's for you to speak if you would like to counsellor Bald for Linton parish council thank you very much um Linton parish council shares the appreciation of many residents the improvements made to the wagon and horses under its new management and particularly those who appreciate the opportunity as one of Mr Warn's correspondence put it to have a quiet drink this should not distract the committee from the very real changes to the noise nuisance generated by live music outside the conditions of the current license we don't accept that these permanent changes are due to covid and most people understand that the letter of the law has not been applied during covid Mr Warn's assurances of good intentions are not enforceable we know the destination of the road paved with good intentions and neighbours of the wagon and horses feel that they are there already we object therefore to all of the proposed changes on the following grounds the first thing is that the present license very recently issued permits the performance of live or playing of recorded music indoors only with windows closed until 11 p.m there is no permission for music to be played indoors and of course the live music act was in force at the time that this license was granted during the pandemic music has been played outdoors causing considerable and in some cases as in representation one extreme discomfort to residents now the parish council fully supports the representations received and read them carefully the committee will note that the noise particularly the base is sufficient to prevent normal enjoyment of radio and tv broadcasts even with the windows closed representation 14 notes the disturbance to children's sleep and representation one the disturbance to animals caused by loud music the veterinary surgery at which animals often stay overnight is under 50 yards from the site and the application does not specifically ask for permission to perform regulated entertainment in external areas so this should not be granted the present restriction that any performance should be indoor should remain in place and in particular this should also apply to the 24 additional events licensed per year the objection to music outside is not from some residents but a current planning permission uh condition rather and i'll come back to that at the end the requirement to measure noise at the site rather nearest affected house should be maintained noise is subject to the inverse square law which means that moving the measuring point away from the source will involve an exponential increase in nuisance to residents it is in effect an application for a license to create nuisance um sorry i also know that the applicants have submitted no records of their monitoring of this noise it's for the committee to determine whether this is because they haven't kept any or perhaps to ask the reason why we also note that any records that have provided only to officers and not to the public the original condition on noise measurement was not woolly but very specific and we welcome the environmental health officer's comment on this issue um we haven't had any specific noise level mentioned but as a point of comparison and no more than that cam grain uh is limited to nine 39 decibels of measuring measuring points um and you know this this really needs sorry mr bol and i actually this is because sorry can i just yes we're losing you every now and again we're losing your um voice would you mind just i'm very sorry i know sorry would you mind just briefly turning off your camera because then we'll be able to hear your representation fluently i will almost happy to turn off my camera thank you for um in order to save i've turned off the camera um have you have you got my last point about the measurement of noise and the lack of specific evidence of it yes yes we have and i i think that um this is something which i'm surprised has not been made public um as part of the um as part of the application because if the applicant has this evidence that should surely have provided it to the committee because that would have given something more uh than the mere subjective impression that the noise is loud um i think that if it's preventing normal enjoyment of broadcast in people's houses that's a very significant point um okay i've just got a couple more quick points to make here the next thing is that the temporary erection of a marquee during pandemic is understandable all the pubs have done it and um the parish council wants to help local businesses to survive um and even though um the applicants know that they have been playing loud music externally in contraversion of contraversion of the terms of their license and therefore could be subject to an action for nuisance the erection of a permanent a marquee covering 80 square meters would reduce the size of the car park and add to what is already severe parking and traffic congestion congestion in the high street and it's worth um saying that the um uh this um the wagon and horses is in an area of the high street quite far away from other pubs and is likely to be more affected by this um then and other businesses which have got some bit more space around them so we would oppose the permission to erect that marquee on a permanent basis and we'd also note that that the sheer extension of the scope of the business which will continue after covid would generate more trade from outside the outside of the village and the influx of cars would be an additional health hazard so so just to add to that point on the marquee that we welcome and share the environmental health officers opposition to the extension of drinking hours so my last point is that the committee properly exercised its statutory powers including its powers under section 16 a chapter 16 section 26 of the secretary of state's guidance to prevent nuisance it is entitled to make these specific recommendations and i contend that the res we contend that the restriction of music is set out in the current license um is absolutely valid and and we hope that you will maintain it i'd expect your legal advisor to know whether the license issued in april 2020 um has less power than a review but i would say that mr ward may have helped to write the live music act but he's not here as an authority but as an advocate and i think that we would say that the council was entitled to impose this restriction and really must if at all possible retain it and that is our view on on behalf of linter parish council we are unanimous in opposing um these um changes to conditions thank you very much mr bald i appreciate that um right uh now just to be clear i would like to seek some advice from the legal officer about the relationship between the live music act and uh the parish council's question has the letter of the law been complied with under covid um now i think i'd like to ask for that first if i may mr wella and then uh if if members have questions for the parish for mr bald of the parish council perhaps we can come back to those is that okay so i've i've noted that both of you would like to ask questions okay so i'm please chair i was wondering whether we could have a very short comfort break yes sorry you're quite right i did think about that a moment ago um could we just get these questions first and then i'll call a break so mr wella are you able to advise us it's as far as today's process is concerned it is an application to vary the license and that's all under the legislation you can look at and the options open to you are provided by your officer in the report the live music act is there and does give permission for these events to take place and as mr warn rightly pointed out it is only upon a review that the if there's any concerns out of the live music act that you have the powers to do anything okay and um the the arrangements that have been used during covid are out with the um our consideration today is that right again that is correct you again it is you're dealing with an application to vary therefore you can only look at the matters that are part of the variation covid restrictions when they come in when they're imposed by central government overwrite any other considerations but when central government remove them then they are removed so at the so are we working on the basis of that covid restrictions now or at the time of the application the covid restrictions apply during the time that they that they are time that the central government imposes them i think i might be missing the point of your question um no let's pass over that um i think the point is that whatever regular whatever conditions or license we gave uh covid regulations override that so yeah but but also one further point just to reiterate that any um license we issue today or don't but if we did today that applies for the for the for the future doesn't it it's it's a continuous week that's not a surprise for the future i suppose that going back to the covid point the best example is if the premises had a had a license only until nine o'clock the fact that the central government has required purpose to shut at ten would not give the premises that extra hour done with you yes okay thank you okay then so panel members then so councillor roberts thank you very much chairman um one question to councillor bold uh which would be i think he did actually mention that there was a planning uh approval that he wanted to mention now i think probably we'll get told by our league officer that uh any conditions in planning are separate to our actually considerations but it would be interesting to know what councillor bold if i picked that up correctly was wanting to tell us and to our legal officer i presume that if members of the public if we were to give this um members of the public have every right themselves to call it in for a review uh which all these uh issues would once again be put forward okay so before uh councillor bold ask that question could we just ask mr weller to explain um whether planning conditions have any um influence on our decision here not particularly no uh it is for planning to enforce planning and it is for licensing to end the force licensing concept that is sometimes not easy to understand when both are within the same building and may actually be on the same floor of the same building but they are different regulatory or licensing regimes and each are responsible for their own enforcement processes so you can't repeat a planning condition and a planning approval can't repeat a licensing committee uh licensing that would simply be duplication but it would be interesting chairman i would put forward it would be interesting to know what conditions were there uh i think everyone wanted us to understand um it's sorry it's that that would be a difficult point because you you should not be viewing it with a with a planning mind you should be viewing it with a licensing mind um mr weller is there any merit in us knowing what conditions planning have applied simply so we don't duplicate i i would say not because they judge under different criteria to the licensing act um you simply should trust your planning colleagues to have put the right conditions on and your officers to enforce as appropriate okay thank you righto um so um i think that means we can't ask mr bold what the planning uh conditions were uh so councillor wilson i have no questions oh sorry sorry councillor robbins did you have any further questions of linton parish council um i would have found uh an answer to that very helpful chairman i'm somewhat disappointed we say that it can't be answered because um the planning committee would have been considering very much the similar things to which we are considering which would be um close proximity of um domestic household um to to the public house and and it would have been useful but um i wish mr bold could give us the answer um i think my only question to mr bold is that i hear what you say that that you're you're objecting to all of the aspects um but do uh given that you've heard that some of the requirements um or recommendations of the environmental health officer have been adjusted can i just ask what uh well of course you can't because you can't speak for linton parish council um but is it your understanding that linton parish council are likely to have retained the same view um even with the amendments that have been proposed in other words um no actually that's too complicated a question to ask sorry can i try it because i think i can have it well first of all yes we would because our main objection is to the noise nuisance and to the extension of the um of the the the the other aspects that are going to continue it but i would like if i may just to clarify something um the implication of mr warns um uh contention is that the original license condition is not valid and is overruled by the um is overruled by the live music act and i note in the reference that i gave that the council has the specific on chapter 16 26 27 of the secretary of state's guidance the council has the right to make specific um restrictions on uh on noise and these this guidance came out this year i think i believe in april and uh i suspect i i would contend that mr warn is wrong in his interpretation of the live music act that he is interpreting it from the point of view of his clients and is not speaking as an authority but as an advocate and i would hope that your own legal advice your own legal advice would look very very closely at that chapter on the guidance because in our view the original license is valid and does not permit music outside and maybe i can just check that with mr wella because if you remember a little while back i pointed out that in april 2020 when these license conditions were applied uh and in particular the the conditions hang on i will find them um at the conditions on our page 37 of the agenda and and um regulations or conditions 6 7 8 9 the the live music act was already in place and that's why i made the point earlier that those conditions would have been applied at a time when the live music act was already in place um so mr wella can you say would the conditions applied in april override the live music act no because the live music act allows license premises additional scope so even though so can i excuse me sorry excuse me can i sorry how would a landlord interpret that is that if they have conditions that say um but all music must be indoors but the live music act says they must they're entitled to have it outdoors they just say okay we're entitled to have it outdoors on the grounds that the live music act but one would be hopeful they were mindful of why those conditions were applied with regard to their neighbors yes um the the conditions that were applied to the license were based upon the license that was sought at the time clearly those conditions can't prevent the application or the the ability of the live music act to apply for the the remainder of the footprint of the premises yes so so one of the other things i wanted to ask was that if we were minded in any way uh to approve this and that includes plan b do would it be wise to include in any of the narrative the fact that the applicant has accepted that plan b still identifies the marquee as being outside that's that's part of part of the application because the plan b is part of the application process now i'm i'm pointing out the fact that although it's part of the registered premises the applicant has told us that they would still nevertheless consider the marquee part of plan b to be outside not indoors yes would it be i'm losing you on the question i think what i'm saying is if and i'm not saying we are but if we were minded to approve in any way would we want to distinguish that the marquee was still considered to be outside and not indoors in other words it wouldn't then it wouldn't magically come within the indoors part of it no it wouldn't no okay good so we don't need to specify that particularly mr weller no we don't i mean no sorry okay thank you okay then councillor robert thank you very much yeah um yeah um councillor bold made a quite specific reference which i tried to write down as quickly as i could and it was in relation to the live music act and what i put here is that in spite of the fact that this act is in place and and gives the right to play music however there is a proviso within the act which i took as and i put it down is that actually the council has the right to make specific restrictions on noise and that that is a that is a given and that uh even though you know the act of building this and people can have music we have as a council an overriding right to ourselves restrict noise at this time let's ask can't report mr mr weller again if i can come on councillor robert you're absolutely correct but you do not have that facility on an application to vary a license you have that facility on an application on a review of a license okay it's the fact that we're on the variation that restricts what you can look at but members of the public listening today having heard that could well decide to go for a review of the license and that has always been available always been available yeah thank you mr weller very helpful so so as was said earlier um and in fact i was minded to point it out early the reason it hasn't been reviewed is because nobody submitted a complaint so if that happened then we might be minded to look at the license uh and and it's an interesting point to those listening who have made objections because of this request to vary that had they actually submitted a complaint to the licensing authority that might have triggered a review during the summer um but you know it's it's worth noting that that any member of the public can do that okay so um if we have no further questions to mr bald i think i'm going to go on to the next representative you before you go on i noticed mr warn has a his electronic hand up oh yes so that's a question for mr bald we also need to be mindful that we need a break which i'm going to do after this okay mr warn sorry yes it was it was it was a very quick observation that i can frame as a question for councillor ball um i i i i do slightly resent the implication that i was somehow miss mischievously misrepresenting the law and i hope that's been cleared up by your legal advisor um can i clarify that i did not have that impression miss no i just think we were just trying to tease out the complexity so if you go ahead would you have a take on this influence about your motivation the other point i would raise just simply say that it's very clear mr councillor ball said that it was unanimous the points he was making in fact in his representation at page 52 it's not unanimous it was six in favour of one against but just for clarity i wanted to ensure that that hadn't been misrepresented thank you very much um now i i think can i can i reply to that please uh yes yeah thank you um first of all i was not suggesting that mr warn was being in any way mischievous but doing his job as an advocate for his client this is a perfectly legitimate thing for a solicitor to do and the second is that the implication of his point is that the original license was not valid in producing these restrictions these restrictions are in place the original license is valid just as much as a review of it would be and that is the point but it is an extremely difficult legal point i'm not accusing anybody of doing anything in any way improper and i'm sorry if i misstated um the uh the vote there has certainly been very strong feeling about it yes um but i'm not accusing mr warn of any kind of mischief i i didn't i didn't infer that mr ball and and i'm i'm i'm perfectly happy to say i've chair of this committee i don't think anybody's uh assigning any unsuitable motivations we're all just trying to represent the people that we're trying to represent and i absolutely understand that there was a majority view uh of objection mr ball so okay thank you very much now if if we're caught if we're happy with that with these questions to councilor bald i think i'll call um if i may say a five minute break as a comfort break if i may uh although come to think of it we're getting quite late on up we started at 11 um are we happy to carry on without a longer break than that i think i'd like to get through the representations so if i make it um oh annoyingly not a convenient time after one i make it around 13 minutes past one can i ask that we come back at 20 past thank you so um leon could you just uh pause the live stream please for a moment if everybody could leave their systems on we'll just pause the live stream and we'll come back at 20 is that okay leon yeah sure no problem can you tell me when we're no longer live okay i thank you for your live but i would leave it maybe 20 seconds for the sort of internal teams lag uh just to make sure that it's a proper sort of public document thanks thank you very much leon um right welcome back uh everyone um could i ask somebody's typing i don't know who that is um perhaps they could kindly mute themselves for the time being um righto thank you so now we've got the remainder of the people who wish to speak against the application and i'm going to take them in alphabetical order so that will be firstly allison allison butterworth who's speaking for william hind and mr and mrs carse mally then simon godsell and then michael malone if that's okay with everybody so um firstly could we take allison butterworth please hello hello um thank you for paying your patience that's okay no problem um yes i'm representing um cast and jane customary and william hind um i think the first thing i want to say is that um two houses have gone up for sale uh since the noise from the pub um the first house that went up for sale was number three green lane and that's owned by jane and cascus marley their house borders the pub um and my house has gone up for sale uh seven green lane uh since uh the noise uh new system we've had from the pub uh so and and both of those uh house sales are due to directly to the noise at the pub because it is so intrusive um we did meet with the pub landlady's and we discussed the situation jane and i did talk about the noise levels we didn't say that we couldn't live without some music which has been inferred uh we did not say that at any point and we did say to the pub landlady's that we understood they needed to make a living we understand that uh a marquee is needed for people to be able to drink in but the loud live music is a major problem for most neighbors in the vicinity in fact it can be heard right down the high street to the dog and duck there are neighbors who have heard the music that far down the high street i believed that the music near my house and jane's and also um david and kate's uh number one uh was extremely loud and i didn't think it could be any louder anywhere else and i have walked up to the top of the high streets at the top of green lane and it's even louder up there i am shocked and astonished at how loud it is and how much we have had to put up with since the pub reopened we do understand they need to make a living and we do understand people need somewhere to drink but the live music is something that i've not heard of in the vicinity of linton in the county uh that there are other pubs having music this loud um and even though uh neighbors have complained quite often there has been a real lack of trying to meet halfway from the pub landlady they said they had permission to do this they were going to carry on doing it when jane and i asked if they could do every other saturday they said no they were doing three saturdays in every four which again is contrary to one of the um neighbors who've um written in in favour because they thought it was every other saturday it's not it's every three saturdays out of four gets me to bring up um the bank holiday when they had live music on the saturday night they had live music on the sunday and they were playing music on the monday i don't think that was live i'm not quite sure but for three days solid uh obviously the pub um it's a commercial time they they need to sell lots of beer that's not a problem but for jane and cast who live on the boundary of the pub to have to listen to that for three days in a row is is is it was very stressful for jane um cast cast marley is also quite poorly and was taken into hospital for a week uh uh into adamant hospital he came home he is recuperating he is still long term sick and is obviously quite stressed by the situation at the pub right next to jane and cast's boundary wall is where the heater has been installed and this generator is so allowed that i can hear it in my house and i'm on green lane i can actually hear it in my house if i don't have a tv on and all windows closed um so obviously for jane and cast jane has all the windows closed now and as a couple they have lived in this house for over for around about 15 years and although the pub has had many different landlords and our ladies they jane is an extremely laid back lady and for her to be so stressed and upset by the situation and to indeed decide to move within a week of the meeting that we had with the pub land ladies just shows the the um level of feeling because of how loud it is and one of the things that we bought up with the pub land ladies um was the base and the fact that the base is what you can hear above the tv so in august we've had some beautiful weekends all of the neighbors have got all windows closed all the doors closed it's hot we can't enter our gardens and we've got the tv a portfolio 35 and we can still hear boom boom boom boom over the top of the tv it is it's unbelievable that anyone's been able to get away with this i'm so shocked because it is so intrusive um i have two cats they're frightened to death uh they hide under the table um it's it's it's very hard and very upsetting because you try and ignore it and you try and make it not be a problem to you but it is so stressful um that it's so hard you know that it's happening um and it's it's three hours at a time so they started at half past five six o'clock because obviously there were only eight or seven till ten they're finishing at nine and nine fifteen and i've timed the times so it's three hours of this there's little stops where i think maybe they go for a quick drink and come back get started again and it appears to get louder as the evening goes on which in itself is difficult if there are children and other people who want to go to bed early i myself will sometimes go to bed at ten o'clock i'd like to read i'd like to relax um my sister stayed she was in the bedroom which backs onto the pub and she couldn't believe how how much louder it got throughout the evening and it's not only a saturday night they've been having quizzes um tuesday or a wednesday in the week and they have a mic they have um a compare and they have lots of people shouting and getting into the mood and the more people drink the more people shout the louder the music that is what's been happening as people have then been leaving the pub we've had some situations in green lane and the um the situation that the parish council had mentioned about the high street it's a conservation area the white and horses is a listed building and the high street is now one way because great big double deck of buses come down it and there is parking on one side the buses can only just get by they go on the pavement to be able to get by because it's very very tight and narrow there is now no car parking at the wagon and horses apart from outside but obviously residents are trying to park outside so people are coming to parking green lane which is the next lane the corpse on the corner it's the next left turn when we spoke to the public ladies they told me it that a thousand one thousand people had registered at the pub since they opened they told me that there's a lot of young people coming um and with one thousand people registering over this period of time that's an awful lot of people going to the pub a lot of people making a lot of noise um Jane and I when we went to see them understood that there will be noise from people chatting drinking and during their evening we will put up with that because we understand the pub needs to make some money it is a business and that's the reality of the situation so to meet halfway on that and to understand this enormous marquee that's now been erected taking up all of the parking space there are now benches all on the boundary of the pub and then there's this great big massive generator that is very noisy so all of that is difficult to deal with but we understand but add to that all of the loud music as well and I think that's where it's become too difficult to put up with obviously the um some of the goings on in Green Lane in the past few months have been quite upsetting I've caught two people peeing in a door in a gateway opposite my house I did tell the neighbour on the one occasion there are cans and bottles being left and a young man was ordering cocaine on his mobile phone below my window one night I can't tell you the date and it was a young man and I was absolutely I could not believe my ears after that I've got photos to show that a car left Green Lane a speed and missed my doorway my house by less than an inch and I've got the skid marks someone was in my house at the time and it was about five past ten on a Saturday night I've got the the photo will be dated my house is a wooden framed house and quite honestly if that car would have hit my house that would have been a great situation so things are getting lively in Green Lane when there's music and events people tend to spill out people are parking in Green Lane and there's already a parking situation there due to the co-op and everything going on there so it's it's it's it's very difficult to live with this and due to that I've been moving I did tell one of the landladers very early on that I found it very difficult to to to put up with the music I do have a colleague who's a sound specialist I haven't consulted him yet but that's something I need to do next because it's only fair that we all live in Linton and it's a lovely village and I want to stay but I feel that I can't live here any longer and I'm worried about selling my house because I think if people obviously can hear the noise and how far and wide it goes I'll have problems being able to do that but I think in the May that that's that's the situation there obviously with 80 people in the marquee thicker walls and doors will make very little difference to that it's so loud it seems to when we spoke to the landladers they said that the the rain one evening was the same decibels as the level of the music that they were playing and I'm so shocked to think that they think I can hear the rain on their marquee to the same volume I can hear their music it doesn't seem to matter what music they play it's it's extremely loud there's always a bass to it it'd be lovely to have some guitar music but it's fun it's the loudness of the vocals because they've got a mic so we asked them maybe not to have a mic oh you've got to have a mic you can't not have a mic so everything that we tried to do to to maybe come to some way in between they wouldn't do every other Saturday it has to be three Saturdays out of four they were going to have that sorry that's all right thank you I think we've understood what your concerns are and I have some questions for you if I may you've mentioned a couple of things firstly you are representing Mr and Mrs Kazmali could you just remind us what their address is uh three green lane linton okay so they're they're three green lane okay they're set back yes I know the house I was driving around there the other day yeah so and the other thing is where in that case can you advise us where the generator for the heater is located on the boundary wall right next to close to their house okay right it's behind the marquee it's in between the back of the marquee and the side boundary to their house because as if you turn left off the high street green lane goes down beside the co-op doesn't it and then it turns left again so is is that where Mr and Mrs Kazmali live at the bottom yes yes okay I'm with you so you turn left from the co-op and then you turning left again and their house is a bungalow right at the bottom that uh is on the boundary to the pub and next to them is number five um on the other side okay so did in all in all of that time during the summer did it occur to you to complain to South Cambridgeshire I did I wrote I wrote to South Cambridgeshire really and I I rang the parish council a couple of times they were very helpful um but um I did I actually read you know I ended up being put through to the police and the police gave me um said I needed to get in touch with environmental health so I then I was then sent um a letter from a viral environmental health with a code to try and get some noise recordings and the code didn't work okay so you didn't so if you remember um right at the beginning when we asked for clarifications from Miss Christie the environmental health officer she said they had sent a letter but they hadn't received any noise recordings back and it sounds because the code doesn't work apparently that isn't a code for our area okay so Miss Christie did you want to um come back in at that point you may have some extra time so Radnam um during my um my um when I was talking earlier I did say there were two complaints that came in to the council officers one in August and one in October the one in August um was received um from Alison Butterworth it wasn't myself who um was involved with that but there is um evidence that um conversations were had between my colleague Chloe Mapple Dora is that something that you spoke to Miss Butterworth I'm not not sure um and I think there may be um Jane Jackson may have spoken to Chloe Mapple Dorm about about the um about the queries so I am aware that there's been some involvement between my colleague from the pollution team and Alison Butterworth but I'm not sure what was involved okay thank you do you want to put your hand down then yes thank you so um Alison that sounds rather unfortunate perhaps because as I understood it Chloe Mapple Dorm would have sent um a information about an app that you can use on your phone to record noise uh but you were saying that the code didn't work so did you get back to her about that uh so I downloaded the noise app I've taken a load of recordings but when I try and send them to the code it doesn't work it says it's not uh it's not recognised okay I'm with you right okay so um Miss Christie could we just pick that up um it's a bit later after the event but at least we know that a resident did in fact make some recordings but it would appear was unable to um send them back to Chloe Mapple Dorm so so that sort of fleshes out a bit of what you said earlier on that perhaps somebody had tried to send back recordings and indeed perhaps if we'd had those recordings they might have been the outcome of those might have been presented to us at this um hearing uh but having said that they would but thank you very much for clarifying Alison that you did try um and I can appreciate that must have been rather frustrating yeah I think that um it's been a challenging time for everybody because of COVID-19 and being able to get officers in and out of residence properties to fit noise monitoring equipment and things like that but um I can't obviously I can't speak on behalf of a colleague so I will speak to Chloe Mapple Dorm and um see if that can be followed um from my own experience in a different location people were able to use the app and record noise and send it back to Chloe so I think perhaps that was just a bit unfortunate uh Ms Butterworth okay um but I do take on board that you've been so upset by the noise that you've you're trying to sell your house um you also mentioned David and Kate at number one can you just um explain to us if we're looking at the plan on page uh actually perhaps the photos might be easier the photos that we had of the premises yes here we are um if we look at the photo on page 41 could you describe to us on that photograph where um David and Kate live they're actually um taking part David Watts is actually um okay sorry right okay okay and they're going to speak later aren't they so okay that's fine but could you write so from that plan the garden that's right at the bottom of our photograph here is nearest to the the Kazmali's is that right yeah I think two two gardens border onto it Kate and David on the one side and um Jane and Kazmali on the other side okay right okay right okay so um panel yes Councillor Roberts do you have a question for Ms Butterworth yes thank you very much chairman um I've actually been listening to uh this last representation really very worrying and somewhat distressing um and earlier on um the representative the lawyer acting for the applicants I think talked to us about compromise I wonder whether um um the the present representation that the lady in front of us could could indicate do you feel that there's any compromise at all that has been made seemingly you you did go and see uh physically and personally um to see if you could find a way around these problems but my first question is do you feel that there's been any compromise offered or given um and I think that um in light of the sort of distress that you've laid out to us which must be taken on board and cannot be ignored I think I have a question for our legal officer of where this fits in with human rights legislation because my understanding of the human rights act is that um people do have a right to a uh a private life a quality of private life and I need to know whether we're actually um in danger here that that has actually been and it's still being breached so let's ask Mr Weller if uh the right to peaceful enjoyment of one's garden has been breached here it's I'm I'm not in a position to say whether or not it's been breached but if there's any concerns on anything like that then of course there are there is protection in that a review for the premises can be called there is protection in that an abatementish notice can be served if environmental services are satisfied that there's a new sense but again that unfortunately or unfortunately the wrong word but that is outside the scope of what is before you today Chairman can I ask a question of Mr Weller given given what has just been said to us is there any allowance for us as a panel to actually decline to make a decision on this um what we've in front of us today um to give an opportunity then for it actually to be um a given a much wider and uh in depth um investigation by way of a review okay sorry I didn't catch that Mr Weller Government did not provide that scope okay okay thank you very much okay so um Councillor Wilson I'm sorry Chairman can I quickly go I asked I asked this the most worth the word for the question did she feel any compromise at all thank you Chairman thank you thank you for inviting me Miss Butterworth very little um they have apparently turned turned the sound down somewhat but it is still extremely loud so you still have to have your TV up very high um you you can't sit in the house without any noise because it's just still is the bass and the vocals and the mic that are the problem okay thank you very much Councillor Wilson and yes my question is very similar if the the bass was turned down would that make a difference to to you and your neighbours I think it would make a difference to me I feel the vocals are still too loud because you can hear the vocals as well and it's the fact that there's a mic um and it's and that mic I did ask if that could be turned down and they said it couldn't they seem to need it at that level because of the people that are in the marquee and as people drink more people are louder and so to be able to hear it to get the atmosphere I think that they want um that is why it's so loud but it's it's so shockingly loud it's it's quite unbelievable I don't know why it sounds so much louder than you would expect it to be but it really is amplified outside of the um wagon and horses premises um and for it to be heard at the bottom of Green Lane and down towards the dog and duck which is quite a way down the high street that means quite a large section of the village is having to three hours of this noise and nuisance every Saturday night and it's only just gone back to being the village that it was um in the past couple of weeks and I'm so thankful to have um some peace on a Saturday night um we understand the pub will open I'll be very happy for the noise to go back inside the pub if they've had music inside the pub before it's not I haven't heard it quite so much we do get noise disturbance of people leaving the pub up to two o'clock in the morning uh revving cars and wheels and things and shouting and arguing fighting you do get that um but that's something we've sort of lived with because we sort of nourish the pub but um when you read up on what is loud and what isn't loud to be a good pub the pubs need to try and uh make sure that these things aren't happening and and by putting heaters by boundaries and tables by boundaries it doesn't matter whether the pub was there before the houses or the houses that were there before the pub people need to uh they need to understand that we need to be able to enjoy our gardens sit outside on a Saturday evening without feeling like well you can't speak it's just yeah very very difficult okay so um I would like to ask Mr Weller please do I know I appreciate you're probably going to say no we're only looking at a variation but is there any way we can um put a condition on the heater because that's obviously producing quite a lot of noise and is there any way we can put any kind of condition on the microphone the condition that has been suggested or discussed between the premises and your your environmental health officer is the one that's within the additional papers yes that's page eight seven eight yeah page seven and that's number three and that should address the the issue with regard to music with regard to the generator or whatever it is I don't my concern with with conditioning that is that we do not this afternoon have sufficient technical information to enable a proper condition to be prepared so you think three ought to cover the microphone because you see it's being used on occasions which are not the same as the um uh music events it's being used at quizzes which isn't whereas this says whenever regulated entertainment takes part place and I suspect that doing a quiz is not a regulated entertainment in which case it is possible for that condition to be uh and I haven't given it thought yet but to be reworked to include some suitable wording I think if we could um perhaps you could bend your mind to that while we're thinking because I think actually use of the microphone is also being very intrusive to people and I think we need to frame this in a way that those noise recordings must be done on days when the microphone is being used as well Sherman can I come in Sherman because it seems to me that reading three it's actually I can't I can't get around Mr Weller's argument that it starts the problem out because it seems to me that it isn't in any way tempering the uh the noise problem which there is clearly a bad noise problem all it's doing is checking what that problem is and that's not where what I think that we're looking for and and in the checking you get the mechanism to regulate at a later date it's again I suppose there's a possibility of putting in uh regulate a condition that involves some form of decibel level but those are always fraught with difficulties and tend to lead to more complications than they actually solve right okay but I think it might not be perfectly satisfactory but we can I do take your point Councillor Roberts but it needs to apply when the microphone is used as well okay Councillor Wilson um my my question is to Miss Butterworth again you've said that you can't understand how things become so loud and I would like to ask um Miss Christie um I live behind a supermarket which has a ventilation fans out the back and at night when there's no traffic around no background noise that noise feels like it's amplified across the empty space between us and those fans and I was wondering whether any measurements could be done not just at the boundary of the of the premises but further afield where the noise might be amplified by empty space and um and measured against the lack of background noise because I know that can be intensely irritating thank you Councillor Wilson um measurements can be taken throughout so statutory nuisance is not is on the professional judgment of the officer in question um that the issue has been that we have not been aware of these problems we have had um as I've said we've had the complaint that came through in August from um Alison Butterworth um about these concerns which was being dealt with with my colleague um Chloe Muffledore and there was a complaint that came in in October which was relating to issues in August and September so that was retrospective complaint um we have it hasn't been brought to our attention that these issues are um affecting wider Linton area as far as I'm aware I can only say what I'm aware of and what is has been put on the um on the records that I'm referring to so um if there is a greater issue which there um appears to be and obviously I've not been I haven't heard anything um I don't know how loud or how loud these alleged noise issues are and I have to say alleged because I haven't been there and I haven't heard it um but until so when we get these complaints then we would usually they would be being dealt with as I've said um the difficulties in August were possibly around the noise app information not being sent back to the officer in question because of the variety of issues that involved and moving forward that can that can happen but it's um statically new since we would be wanting to look at yes and does that answer your query can I I hope you okay thank you and what I would like to be reassured about is that there'll be liaison between Miss Butterworth and the Environmental Health Officers possibly Chloe Mappledorum to ensure that those records are logged with the department with the district council so that we find some way of sending those in so that they are registered and put against the complaint that was made in August so that that is registered as having been a complaint um that's absolutely fine Couts for Bradner and and moving forward if there is still an ongoing noise issue um residents have got the means to come back to the Environmental Health team and and make those complaints so that we are aware that there is an ongoing noise issue and then we can we can take that forward we will work with them we try and mediate between them and the applicants and we'll go out and take uh we will go out and listen to things and yes absolutely that's part of our role yes okay thank you so if that's all the questions for Miss Butterworth thank you very much for um states stating your um situation and for answering the questions that we asked thank you very much Miss Butterworth right so the next person I'd like I can find my piece of paper was um Simon Godsell hello yes thank you for being patient thank you um do do make your presentation thank you yes I'd like to be fairly brief because most of what I said is in my representation uh but um Allison has given a very very tiny here Mr. Godsell before you go on of course ours are redacted so which was your which number was your representation do you recognize no idea um it's um I don't know it's there anyway okay fair enough sorry do go ahead so um Allison's given us a very clear picture of the here and now what's going on I would say it's even noisier where we are because we're just over the road from from the pub and music even inside the pub is a huge nuisance it's almost as loud as the um as the tent for us but um but I would like to make the bigger picture argument here in the past and potentially in the future Green King has taken on highly irresponsible tenants who are completely unable and I'm willing to control this pub's environment and very often there were serious disturbances late at night now we do acknowledge that the current tenants are significantly better they've made big improvements to the pub facilities and environment but we have to think about the permanence of these licensing changes that we might make because Helen may not be here in five years time or whatever so with even with the current tenants it is a serious concern to allow potentially many extra drinkers in the garden up to midnight at weekends this is likely to spill over into even more late night disturbances on the outdoor music issue I would like to say that it is often so loud indoors with the double-daisy glazing closed not sitting in our garden that we can hear customers having to shout and scream over it this is highly dangerous in times of COVID my wife has been very worried and upset about the COVID risk of this but it would also be unacceptable during normal times as well finally more broadly and this may be for a review at a future time I think it is astonishing the small but very noisy pub in a quiet residential area is allowed to stay open until 1 30 am at weekends how we have arrived at this situation without local consultation is quite astounding but that's probably for a future consideration thank you thank you very much Mr Godsell does anybody have any questions I actually I will ask you so Mr Godsell if you're directly opposite the pub are you are you 1 3 1 we are 1 3 1 the high street I think okay thank you very much um and obviously you'll appreciate uh that I have understood that the terms under which we approve the license stay permanently so I understand the implications of that and sometimes the allowing places to stay open till 1 30 on specific days is sometimes slightly surprising in in areas which are very have very close residential premises nearby Councillor Wilson I've just got one question and we from the submissions the the the letters of support given in the supplementary document I've very much gained the impression that the customers of these premises have become much more mature responsible more considerate set of customers but what I'm hearing from Miss Butterworth and Mr Godsell that that isn't the case so would Mr Godsell please like to these things are all relative Alison probably doesn't know what it used to be like we had brawls on the streets which the police obviously weren't interested because knives and guns weren't involved and uh you know it was really serious uh there was badass customers coming in on the situation now yes indeed yes yes so sorry just giving the context there but but but still indeed there are disturbances after hours and they do a pretty good job of clearing it away from immediately the front of the pub on most occasions not all but clearly there are disturbances then going on around the corner in uh spilling over into green lane which are further away from the pub and elsewhere in the village so there have been big improvements since January yes that is definitely true but but there have been disturbances and I'm worried about when opening hours go back to 130 again and we may have more people on the premises outside okay Councillor Roberts did you have any questions for Mr Godsell just a very quick one chairman can Mr Godsell tell me how long have you lived where you are living Mr Godsell please 10 years 10 years so you've had a pretty good run of seeing it in in various shapes and forms but yes feel that this noise of the music is is something new to you it's certainly louder and more disturbing than it's ever been before yes thank you very much thank you okay thank you Mr Godsell that's really helpful and so finally I think our last speaker oh no um we have Mr Michael Malone and then Mr Watts so Mr Malone hello chairman can you hear me yes thank you um thank you very much um I am 129 high street uh we live where is that relative to the pub directly opposite so you're a neighbour to Mr Godsell yes thank you so go ahead with the red house directly opposite we've been here 26 and a half years um I'm not going to I'm not proposing to go over what I put in my representation which is representation 18 okay um and also the other representations are um crystal clear and detailed and we've heard um very compellingly from Miss Butterworth um I can't add to that sensibly um I'm not a licensing expert um I find Helen and her husband Nigel um to be a very decent people and um I've been on nodding terms or chatting terms with them for many years I was pleased to hear that they were taking the pub over I was very pleased to hear that um it's a sort of irony that in fact the pub has become more inclusive since they have taken over which is very disappointing um and uh the pub needs to generate a profit and all the steps that have been taken um from my viewpoint are designed to make profit um the as regards the general behaviour of the pub um it has improved but as Nigel had told me um they have called the police on occasion to get rid of um drunks and antisocial um people behaving antisocially um in an attempt to keep the um the lay on the the cauldron um the dog and duck is very different the wagon is very different to the dog and duck um as far as I am aware um you know having spoken to friends in the village um the dog and duck never has any problem it's a it's a green king pub and it's run um it incredibly responsibly and efficiently the noise um from the music is frankly intolerable um as I've said in my uh representation I on occasion I've been sitting in um in fact this room which has double glazing with my headphones on listening to music and I can't listen to it properly because I've got the thump of the music coming through the double glazing and my headphones late at night um I've complained to uh Nigel uh and Helen um about the level of noise um they said they are um taking the noise level down they just don't seem to grasp um the severity of the problem um and I said the noise inside for those actually attending drinking and attending them the event and the noise must be incredible um because it's so loud um in our house and not to mention of course in the garden um so it's extremely intrusive um chairman I'm not a licensing lawyer or expert but um may I just briefly um touched on an important point which is the um whether or not they are entitled to have um music playing externally or outdoors um as I understand that they are in breach of the current license the license as we know was granted in uh April of this year and the permitted activities were crystal clear um live music recorded music in laws um much play has been made of the 2012 act as entitling as entitling every publican um to play music outside as I understand the submission without any uh licensing control at all of course you can bring actions for nuisance etc but um it cannot be right I'd be astonished um and chairman you'll have to decide this whether the 2012 act is an absolute act i.e. um events in the pub are regulated events outside the pub are completely unregulated subject to um nuisanc