the Gujarat High Court Advocates Association. And though otherwise I had congratulated him, but on this platform, I congratulate on behalf of Beyond Law CLC and its viewers, because we know that a leader is one who can lead from the front. And for leading, you also have to, especially for a lawyer, how to go about the drafting. And I was just reading one of the articles that said for understanding the drafting and arguments, three facets would always come into the mind. First is you have to read a lot. Then you have to crystallize your thoughts, how you have to synchronize with them. And then being a lawyer, I needless to say that the understanding of the statutes, regulations, and how the law has developed is must. Because in one of the webinars where we did with Mr. Uday Hola, senior advocate and former advocate general, he also hammered this point to the effect that if you know the particular law or the amendment in the statute or act, then you draft in such a fashion while he was giving a reference to the specificity fact. And that's how the law diverse, I would say, to the effect that if there is change and you continue to harp upon an issue which is no longer relevant or you are relying upon a law which is what you say, it could be an orbiter or it could have been an overall judgment. The entire foundation lies upon that. But today's session is art of drafting on the suits and the red predictions because normally what we believe or what books normally come in the market also or on the social media platform where we find number of notes, it only speaks of drafting. But is there any stark difference between the two? Is there any difference between the mindset which has to be developed for that? Is this their way to pen down those thoughts in a different fashion and way? These were other certain differences and nuances which we will learn today's, through the two days webinar journey. And we now always have Q&A as normal in the format we have and those who want to know the previous webinars of Mr. Asim Pandya, they can Google it on the YouTube or if they've subscribed to the channel of Beyond Law, CLC, they will find the different sessions taken by Mr. Pandya. Without taking much time being a weekend, I would request Mr. Pandya to take things forward. Thank you very much, Mr. Vikas. Good evening to everyone who is present in this webinar. It is indeed my pleasure being here again after a very long time to share my views on the art of drafting and point out the basic distinctions between drafting of a plant and drafting of a petition.  One is your writing skill and another is your oratory. Unless you possess both these skills, it is difficult to make a mark in the profession. So to be a successful lawyer, it is necessary to possess these two skills. And if you do not possess these skills, then by your own efforts, you will have to acquire these skills. So basically, when the topic is the art of drafting, so as you know that this is an art, I can start with the proverb that I can take the horse to the river, but I cannot make him drink the water. So same is with the art, any art, you take any art.  So for painting, what you need basically, you need a pencil, you need a canvas, you need colors and after you possess all these tools, then what is most important is your own skill, your own imagination, how to make what kind of drawing which will attract the eyes of people. So same thing is there with the drafting of a pleading or a petition. I can provide you basic tools of drafting. I can provide you the structure of drafting, but I cannot sit in your mind and dictate what is to be written in the draft or a written in petition or a plane. So I will today try to first discuss all these things about what is the nature of this skill, how one can possess this kind of skill, what are the tools, basic tools of this drafting skill and then also what is the importance of drafting because first of all, we need to know the importance of the drafting unless and until we realize the importance of the drafting, you will not be able to have a liking for the drafting. And first and foremost requirement of a good craftsman is to have a great liking for the subject. So in this context, as I begin with the statement that you need to possess two skills and one is oratory and one is writing skill, we are not going to talk about the oratory, but I must recommend all of you to refer to one judgment of the honorable Supreme Court wherein honorable Justice Krishna here has very vividly discussed the importance of the oral argument in the court hearing and also the written brief. So both these important things that he has discussed and he has discussed this in the judgment which is entitled as P. N. Ishwara Ayer versus register Supreme Court of India, which is reported in AIR 1980, Supreme Court page 808. I must give brief background so that you can understand the importance of these two skills. It was a case wherein virus of one Supreme Court rule was challenged, wherein during the hearing of the revue petition, the oral arguments in the court proceedings are excluded. So today also in Supreme Court of India, whenever you file a revue petition under article 137 of the constitution of India, the revue petition is circulated in the chambers and thereafter discussion take place between the judges where decided the case and oral argument in the court room is excluded. Only of all the judges are of the view that this case needs to be heard in open court then only the matter is placed for oral hearing and arguments. So the rule excluded oral arguments while hearing the revue petition. So validity was challenged and great emphasis was laid on the argumentation skill that it is very important in judicial dispensation and dispensation of justice. And therefore you cannot exclude the oral arguments even while hearing the revue petition. At that stage, the Honorable Justice Krishna here said that you cannot overwrite the importance of oral argument and underwrite the importance of a written brief. A blend of both is the best. So here I would request all of you to read this judgment because it gives a great insight into the aspect of importance of a written brief also. So with this prefatory remarks, I will now try to explain what kind of draftings usually a lawyer is supposed to undertake. It depends on the, first of all, it depends upon the place where he has decided to practice. So first of all, there are three kinds of drafting. First drafting is drafting of legal documents, convincing. That is a job of the non litigation lawyer or solicitors. So we are really not concerned with the drafting of documentations. The second aspect of the drafting is drafting of pleadings. So pleading means necessarily the pleadings to be presented in a court or a judicial, before the judicial authority. And third kind of drafting is drafting of legislations. So here also we are not really concerned with the subject drafting of legislation. So our focus would be essentially on the drafting of pleadings. Why I'm referring to this kind of three types of drafting is to explain to you that the drafting skill differs from the place where you practice. Suppose if you are practicing in a subordinate court, what kind of drafting you will be required to undertake? Then if you are practicing on civil side in the trial court, then first thing which you are required to draft is a drafting of a notice. Second is notice is most important document and I suggest that one must take maximum care while drafting a notice because it is going to be a base of your claim. And once if you miss certain aspects in the legal notice which has preceded the filing of the blade, it is not necessary that in every case, the legal notice must precede the filing of the blade. But usually our experience shows that before filing a suit, usually party exchanges a notice and reply. And thereafter when the dispute is not resolved by issuing this notice and reply, then ultimately parties approach the civil court with a plane. So while drafting a legal notice, it is most important that you take utmost care so that nothing, no facts are missed, no important event is missed, no important document, a reference of the document is missed while issuing a notice because when you draft a plane and something is not stated in your original legal notice and it is found in the plane, then immediately when defendant files his written statement, he will make a you and cry that you are trying to improve upon this story. What you have not stated in the legal notice, you cannot incorporate in the, so you are improving the story. You ought to have stated all these things in the legal notice, but you have failed to do and therefore this is an improvement and it is an afterthought. And therefore in written statement, the defendant could say that court should not believe this. So this is this kind of then plane comes. So under the civil procedure court, bleeding simply means plane and written statement. So if you choose to practice in the trial court, you will have to undertake drafting of a legal notice, plane. If you are appearing for the defendant, then you will have to draft a written statement. Then also interlockery applications like application for injunction, application for appointment of commissioner and then many other miscellaneous applications will have to be drafted by you. So this is the nature of drafting which you would be required to undertake if you choose to practice in the trial court. In addition, if you are practicing in a district court also, then you also need to learn drafting of appeals, drafting of revisions, because there are certain orders that may not be possible to be reviled, can not be appealed. And therefore in a given case, you are entitled to file revision also under certain statutes. So when if you are practicing in a district court, you will have to acquire the skill of drafting of appeals, revisions, review, appeal from orders of miscellaneous appeals, et cetera, et cetera. If you choose to practice in high court, then what would be the nature of drafting which will come to you? If you choose to practice in high court, then the documents which you will have to draft is a petition under article 226, petition under article 227. First appeals arising under section 96. Second appeal under section 100. Appeal from orders in many, sometimes appeal from orders also under order 43 rule one. There are special statutes that also provide for filing appeal before the high court. References under a special statute. So if you choose to practice in high court, you will have to undertake this kind of drafting many a time review petitions also. If you choose to practice in supreme court, in addition to the regular drafting of article 32 of the constitution petition and article 32 of the constitution of India, you will be required to draft special petitions. Then appeals under the provisions of article 131 to article 136 review petitions, et cetera. The skill or art of drafting differs from every place. Suppose as I said that if you choose to practice in civil court, you would be required to apply a different technique and different skill. So I will be dealing with the tools of drafting little later, but this is the area and it depends on where you choose to practice and you must try to possess this kind of skill. And if you are not possessing this skill, then you must acquire this kind of skill depending on the place where you choose to practice. So this is one aspect. Now, most fundamental aspect is what is the meaning of drafting? I have tried to define the word drafting in my own way. I would like to define the term drafting by stating this, that drafting is an art. Drifting is an art of articulating. Drifting is an art of articulating or arranging these scattered thoughts and writing them down, writing them down in a systematic manner so as to make the written text intelligible. So you follow what is the division. This definition will give you some insight that first of all, it is an art or it is a skill. And what is this art about? It is an art of articulating your scattered thoughts because before you start dictating any petition, plaint, et cetera, or writing the plane, you need to articulate or arrange your scattered thoughts, focus on the thoughts and then write them down. Write them down in not haphazard manner. It is to be written down in a systematic manner. Now then what? Then it should be written in a manner which will make the written text intelligible. So if you write one fact here and another fact there, one date here and another date there, and in haphazard if you draft something, it cannot be defined as a proper drafting or a legal drafting in true sense. It would be considered as a slip shot drafting. So this is the definition of the word drafting. And when we talk about the drafting in the legal field, then it would be drafting in the legal field would mean drafting of a document, legal document, or a pleading from the facts collected from the client. So whatever facts you have collected from the clients, so it is making a document or drawing a document or a pleading from the facts collected from the client. Then information you already possess by applying your common sense, your knowledge of law and applying your skill. So this is how we understand the drafting of a pleading or a legal document in the field of law. So with this, and now what is the meaning of pleading? Because while discussing this topic, we must know all these things. So what does pleading means? Pleading means pleading is a document, legal document, which is usually presented to a court or a tribunal or a judicial authority, wherein a party sets forth his case, cause of action and other relief. So basically pleading would literally means where party to the litigation sets forth his case, cause of action and relief. And it also includes the assertions, allegations, defences and denials. In CPC drafting, as I said that drafting has been defined to mean that drafting of a pleading and the written statement only. So this is the meaning of the term drafting, drafting of a legal document and meaning of the word pleading. When we are talking about this topic, the art of drafting and we are going to talk about the distinctions between drafting of a pleading and drafting of a petition, we first must understand what is the importance of drafting in the legal process or adjudicatory process. So first important fact about drafting is that it gives a fair notice to the other side. What is the case of the respective party to the litigation? So it is first principle of natural justice that if you are coming before the court, the other side must know what is the case you are pleading. So it gives a fair notice to the parties to the litigation about individual case. Second importance of the drafting is that it narrows down the controversy. When something is stated in writing, there is a clear thought expressed in the form of writing. So it brings clarity. Once the document brings clarity, it automatically narrows down the controversy. So it helps the judicial authority to adjudicate the case most effectively. So that is another importance of the drafting of a pleading. Third important aspect about the drafting of pleading or drafting is that usually in the trial court, the judges may not read the plaint's at their home because the entire system of filing of pleading, filing of written statement is materially different from filing of the petition, et cetera, in the high court. But so far as the high court judges and supreme court judges are concerned, the petition filed by the litigants or lawyers reached the home of the judge concerned on a previous night before the listing of a case and the judges do read all these petitions at home. So this gives an opportunity to judges to form a tentative opinion from your pleading itself. So it has a great importance so far as the lawyers practicing in the high court and supreme courts are concerned. Because most of the judges read all the cases when on a previous night, and when the matters are listed on the next day and when the advocates are asked to begin his argument, a very brief hearing is given. So a tentative opinion which is formed by a judge from reading of the file, it becomes difficult for a lawyer when he gets up for argument to change that opinion. So if drafting is, it's a well drafted petition, then he should not worry. And if he has made his case very clear in his petition, then judge might form a positive opinion. But if it is a slip shot drafting, if it makes the task of a judge difficult to understand the controversy, then there are all possibilities that your petition might be disbursed. So it gives an opportunity to the judge to form a tentative opinion. And then when you get up for argument, it will be little difficult for you to change the tentative opinion. So it is very important that your drafting is proper. The next importance of the drafting is that, usually in trial court, the issues are framed from the drafting, drafting of readings, that plaint and written statement. And sometimes documents are also important for framing of an issue. So when something is lacking in drafting, suppose in the plaint, you have not made, you have not set out material facts, then it is quite likely that a judge may miss to frame an important issue because the judge, the jurisdiction of a judge to frame issue would arise from the fact set out in the plaint and then defences or denials taken by the defendant in his written statement. So basically from the plaint and written statement, the judge is supposed to frame issues. And if your pleadings are not proper, your plaint is not properly drafted. If your written statement is not properly drafted, then it might happen that judge would miss important issue and parties will also not be able to focus as to what are the real and genuine issues before the court. And once that happens for all time to come, it would be absolutely impossible to cure this defect because you are all aware that if something is not set out in your pleading, the court will not permit you to travel beyond your pleading. So once for all, once your pleadings are over, the parties will not be allowed to travel beyond what has been set out in the pleadings that is a plaint or a petition or a written statement or in a reply to the petition. So that is a very great significance with regard to the drafting of plaint and petition. Then another important aspect about drafting is that court will not grant relief, which is not prayed for, or which is not backed by sufficient pleading. You might draft a prayer, but if there is no supporting or the prayer is not backed by sufficient pleading, then court will not be able to grant you the relief which has been prayed for. And one such occasion happened in the case of Prabod Verma versus state of UP, which is reported in AIR 1995, Supreme Court, page 167. In that case, a validity of an ordinance or a statute was challenged. And the petition drafted by a lawyer sought for a rig of security to push that notification. And the Supreme Court deprecated the practice of slip shot drafting and made very important observations. I will reproduce those observations. And Supreme Court in that judgment said that this prayer was not properly drafted. It was not happily drafted. The parties should have prayed declaration that this statute is invalid, void have been issued. And thereafter he was seeking certain further direction that he ought to have demanded read in the nature of mandamus, directing the authority from acting or implementing this state statute. The Supreme Court said in 1985 that ill drafted petition has become the rule and well drafted petition an exception. And the Supreme Court went on and further said that ill drafted pleading is an offspring of the union of carelessness with imprecise thinking. And their brothers are slip shot preparation of a case, rambling and irrelevant arguments in the judicial proceeding in court proceedings which results into waste of precious judicial time which cannot be afforded by the court which is flooded with skyrocketing dockets. So these are the observations of the Supreme Court that it leads to irrelevant arguments, irrelevant and rambling arguments. And it leads to waste of precious judicial time and therefore lawyer should be careful while drafting a petition. And he should make all endeavor to bring clarity into his pleading so that judge and the opponent can understand, opponent can reply to his pleadings properly and judge can decide the case properly. So even 1985 the Supreme Court has taken note of ill drafted petition and even today the situation has not unfortunately improved. Even when we see drafting of petitions or a plaint coming from the trial court then we realize that they are not properly drafted, happily drafted and therefore there is a need to acquire this skill so that judicial time is not wasted and the controversies are adjudicated effectively in a short span. So this is the importance of the drafting and now coming to the tools because as I said that drafting is a skill or is an art. So I can provide you the structure, I can provide you in the bullet points what are the tools for drafting but I cannot make you draft a particular petition because when you join the profession or if you are in a profession you will have a variety of cases. So even if I explain you that how to draft a one kind of particular petition or a one kind of particular plane it will not help you in improving the drafting skill. It will simply give you a ready format that for this kind of petition or this kind of relief in a plane this is the manner in how the plaint is to be drafted but that will not help you in any manner because during the profession we'll come across thousands of different cases and in each case you will be required to apply different drafting technique and your drafting skill in a different manner. So basically for good drafting what is most important? So I will talk about the tools of good drafting because as I said that I will not be able to take you to the actual drafting. I can provide you structure and I can provide you tools but then ultimately it is your imagination which will have to be applied and create a best draft. So the first important tool in the for drafting is your linguistic skill. You should have a great command of English language if you are practicing in high court and if you are to draft your training in English. If you are practicing in a subordinate court and your language is Hindi then you should have a good command of language and you should write it very clearly. So command of language is most essential. Then what is another important tool? Another important tool is vocabulary. You need to have a great vocabulary to convey your thoughts. Lord Denning said that words are the lawyers tools of trade. For other profession there may be different kind of tools but for our profession what are the tools of trade? So Lord Denning said the words are lawyers tools of trade and their important lies in the fact. Their important lies in the fact that they are the vehicles of thought. So through words we convey our idea. We convey our feeling and that is most important in legal profession and in practice. So choosing a wrong word lead to a dismissal of your petition also. I will give you one example or two examples that how choosing of a wrong word creates lots of difficulty. First I will give one illustration of a judge in our High Court. He had great dislike for the word obtained. Whenever if you say in his court that my lawyer friend has obtained the order or I have obtained the order of injunction from the trial court. He would say that you cannot obtain the order. He had in his mind that word obtained only denotes that it is my unfair means. Opting would only indicate that you have done something surpliciously or by unfair means. So if you speak a wrong word that is it is not a wrong word in true sense but there are liking and disliking with individual judge and he has a great disliking for this word that is obtained. So if you speak in his court this word obtained then your case is dismissed. So our wrong choosing of a word leads to dismissal of a petition. And coincidentally one day while appearing though I was conscious that he does not like this word inadvertently I spoke that word that we have obtained this order from the trial court and it is still continuing. So please continue the interim belief and he got annoyed. And he said that Mr. Don't use this word obtained. Then I had looked into the dictionary meaning and then on the next day when the matter was listed I pointed out the dictionary meaning and I also pointed out that in 80 Supreme Court judgments the word obtained has been used by the Supreme Court itself to indicate that obtained does not always mean by unfair means or surplicious manner. It means that by making conscious efforts by efforts you have been able to get the interim injection because these are discretionary layup. It is not given as a matter of right. It is not given as a matter of course and therefore an individual lawyer will have to make great efforts in getting injection. In petition even getting a notice issued a lawyer has to make lots of efforts because it is a discretionary relief and petition can be dismissed on various grounds alternative remedy delay and leches, territorial jurisdiction, disputed question of facts. So unless you cross these revels even in High Court and Supreme Court notices are not issued. So if in that sense the word obtained has been issued that we have obtained notice from the honorable court it simply means that it is by my efforts I have been in a position to get the order and it does not necessarily mean that it is always surplicious manner or unfair means. So this is one instance. And sometimes you would find that many young lawyers when they start career and they start practicing in High Court or trial court then judge puts a query to them or judges are expressing their opinion. They say that I appreciate sir. Now there are judges and judges who dislike the word that I appreciate. Because they say that they have reached this position and who are you to appreciate his what is falling from the court. So there are judges and judges who dislike. So in such court you should be careful in using the word appreciate also. Instead of that you can say that yes sir I follow it. I understand what is falling from the honorable court but as soon as you say that yes sir I appreciate then you are gone. And in a given case the judge might dismiss the case also. And third instance of choosing a wrong word is that I came across one instance where the educational tribunal was fond of a good language. And in a proceeding arising of a departmental inquiry he wanted to convey that in the departmental proceedings the charge has not been proved. But he was fond of using a good language. So he said that the charge has not been proved to the Hild. So he used the word to the Hild. And that phrase has created a lot of difficulty when the matter reached the high court because the tribunal simply wanted that charges have not been proved properly. But when he used this to the Hild man the other side took an objection that the tribunal has introduced the standard of proof which is applicable to the criminal proceedings. And in departmental proceedings the standard of proof is preponderance of probabilities and not the strict standard of proof. And once the tribunal had used that charge has not been proved to the Hild it means that he has applied the standard of criminal trial and then I had a great time or difficult time to convince the court that to the Hild means that he wanted to say that charge is not sufficiently proved. And beyond that he did not want. So again I had to look up to the dictionary meaning and then take the dictionary meaning to the court and then I had to convince the court. So second important tool is this vocabulary but I would request all the lawyers who are watching this webinar that please choose the word very wisely. Don't choose improper words because as I said that choosing of an improper word might lead to dismissal of a petition. So second aspect that linguistic skill then vocabulary so as to convey your thoughts properly to the judge concerned effectively. Third important tool is there has to be clarity of facts. That is most important. So while drafting you must have a clarity in thoughts. If there is a clarity in thoughts there will be clarity in your writing. So somebody has said that obscurity in thoughts will lead to obscurity in speech and writing. So you should have a clarity in facts and how do you get this? Then you will have to make conscious efforts. So you will live when you sit with the client first thing which you must do is to demand documents chronologically and arrange them in sequence. And once you arrange all these documents and put the case of your client in sequence it will automatically impart great clarity in your mind. And once your mind is very clear the drafting becomes very easy. So arranging documents and arranging facts in sequence would bring clarity in your thoughts, clarity in thinking and then it would lead to best drafting. And it will give a clarity to the judge also that what this person wants to convey and what is his case finally. So third important tool is clarity in thoughts. Then what is next important is clarity in law. So clarity in law is also very important unless you understand the law and apply this law properly to the facts of the case your drafting would not be proper and it will not appeal to the court. So your task is to make the task of the judge very easy. The main purpose or object of drafting is to see that your written brief is so clear and so precise that judge gets immediate idea as to what is the controversy. And once judge within a very short span gets the complete idea of the controversy it becomes very easy for him to give a clear judgment and maybe if you have written it very clearly then you might get a positive judgment if it is not written properly then it would be difficult task for the judge and then the respondent or defendant will have to undertake the task of clarifying all these things and which would result into a waste of judicial time. The next tool which I was talking about is the clarity of thought, clarity of facts and most important aspect is that you must arrange facts in proper sequence. When you arrange the facts in proper sequence it will unravel many important aspects of the litigation and you would be surprised that many things while reading a case while taking inspection from client you have missed and which will come to your light and you will be able to argue properly and you will be able to state all these things properly in your pleadings. So these are the basic tools of drafting as I said that as painter needs a pencil, canvas, paintbrush and colors for making a good draft or making a good painting. Similarly a lawyer needs a clarity of thought, clarity in facts, clarity in law, linguistic skill and good vocabulary that will make a best draft of a pleading. Now coming to the next aspect of the distinctions between a petition, drafting of a petition and pleading. I'm sorry, drafting of a plane. Now what are fundamental distinctions? There are fundamental distinctions between drafting of a plane and the petition. First important aspect about the distinction is that so far as petitions under article 226 and 227 are concerned, civil procedure court does not apply. So drafting of a petition need not be strictly in accordance with the provisions of CPC. Whereas if you draft a plane or a written statement, it must be in accordance with the provisions contained in order six, order seven and order eight. So there are very important aspects that set out in order six, seven and eight about drafting of a plate. But basically what I'm trying to point out is that while drafting a petition, CPC does not apply strictly, it serves as a guide. And as repeatedly said by the Supreme Court that while construing a drafting of a petition, you cannot mechanically apply the provisions of CPC. They are inapplicable by virtue of explanation to section 141 of the civil procedure court which specifically excludes applicability of civil procedure to read petition. So that is first distinction. Now, so far as plane circumstances, plane must set out the facts concisely, precisely. And what are the facts, not irrelevant facts. You are supposed to set out only material facts that are relevant for the controversy. So what is expected under order six rule, order six, order seven and order eight of CPC is that your plane must set out the facts concisely. It should be divided into small paragraphs and it should give the basic facts and it should give material facts and it should not give irrelevant facts. And at the same time it should not conceal the important aspect. So the plane has to give material facts and it has to be in conformity with order six, seven and eight whereas petition did not be in that way. What is important about plane and petition distinction is that in plane you are supposed to set out the facts only. Whereas in petition, you are entitled to set out facts. You are supposed to set out your legal submissions also and you are also entitled to extract the provisions of law and you are also entitled to reproduce certain relevant exerts from the Supreme Court's judgment to substantiate your claim in the petition. Whereas in plane you are simply supposed to set out the facts. There is no requirement of mentioning the grounds in support of the facts because CPC does not see like that. And so if you are referring to a document you have to briefly set out in the plane the effect of the document. You are not supposed to reproduce the entire document in the plane and what is the importance of the document. All these things are not to be stated only the effect in brief of the document is to be set out in the plane. Whereas in a petition you are entitled to reproduce the document contents of the document. In plane it is a doctor in that when you refer to a particular document it is by reference and incorporation become part of the plane. So it need not be reproduced or some substantial portion of document need not be reproduced while drafting a petition. You are at liberty to reproduce the relevant paragraphs from the document which you are referring to. Then as I said that in plane the most important aspect is valuation. It is most essential aspect and it is a mandatory requirement that you will have to point out what is the value of the suit for the purpose of code fee and jurisdiction. So unless and until these facts are set out it would be difficult to determine before which code your plane would go or your suit will go. So that is a mandatory requirement so far as planes are concerned. But in petition there is no requirement of making valuation. It is a special jurisdiction under article 226 that valuation of the petition is absolutely relevant. So it is not supposed to be there in petition but it is in plane it is very important and there has to be a paragraph also. Not only in the title in the plane you say that the suit is valued at so and so rupees for the purposes of code fees and jurisdiction. But there has to be a specific paragraph wherein you will have to state that the in this suit plaintiff is seeking washing and setting aside of the sale date and the sale date value is rupees two crores and therefore for the purposes of code fees and jurisdiction this is the amount of the code fees payable on this and it has been paid. Otherwise the assessment will have to take place and the department will decide what is the appropriate code fee and if by chance the valuation goes up then plate will have to be transferred. So that is a requirement so far as plaintiff is concerned but there is no requirement so far as petitions are concerned. Now cause of action. In a plane cause of action is most important and it is mandatory requirement for every plaintiffs to set out what is the cause of action. Unless and until cause of action is set out clearly in a separate paragraph it will be difficult to adjudicate whether the suit is within the limitation or not. So this paragraph will give an idea to the code as well as the department that whether the suit is barred by limitation or not because suits are governed by the law of limitation. So another distinction is that so far as plaintiffs are concerned since they are governed by the law of limitation there is a specific requirement of setting out the cause of action whereas for petitions it is not required to set out a specific cause of action because petitions are not governed by the law of limitation. It is governed by the principle of delay and ledges. That is absolutely a different facet than the time bar claim. So for deciding whether it is time barred or not one has to give that specific instance that on this day the agreement for sale was executed on this day the plaintiff demanded enforcement of the agreement for sale. The defendant refused on this day thereafter a repeated reminders were sent on so and so date but defendant has failed to execute a sale deed in my favor and therefore now the present by this suit we are seeking enforcement specific and performance of the contract. So this will give an idea. So far as petitions are concerned they are not governed by the law of limitation and their limitation is flexible. It is a discretionary relief and therefore suppose a cause of action has arisen suppose in the month of July 2019 and if you are approaching the high court in the year 2022 in February 2022 one cannot say that it should be dismissed on the ground that it is barred by limitation but yes the judge would ask what is your explanation for delay and ledges? So there has to be a specific contention or specific statement of fact that why are you approaching the court after this much delay? And if you are in a position to explain the delay properly there is a sufficient cause for approaching the court after this much delay and if court is satisfied then court will entertain your petition otherwise if the court might dismiss your petition simply on the ground that not barred by time please bear it in mind. Petitions cannot be dismissed on the ground that they are time barred. The discretionary relief can be denied on the ground that parties have said idle they were not vigilant enough to seek enforcement of their rights and therefore since this 226 petition is being a discretionary jurisdiction in the facts of the case since it is delayed by more than two years we do not think it proper to entertain this petition and therefore on the ground of delay and ledges we are dismissing the petition. So there is a distinction between Imbarklin and dismissal of a petition on the ground of delay and ledges in a given case three days delay might be fatal and in a given case three years delay may also not be fatal. So you just keep this in mind that this is so far as plain circumstances they are done by the law of limitation and so far as petition circumstances they are not done by the law of limitation. So these are the basic distinctions and now so far as plain circumstances at the end of CPC I think there is a form A where different kind of formats are prescribed for crafting of a particular type of plane if you are a swing for immobile property then there is a separate format if you are filing a recovery suit then there is a separate kind of format prescribed in the CPC. So there are different types of format prescribed at the end of CPC in the chapter A of the CPC. Whereas for petitions there are no formats except now because of the judgment in Balwant Singh Chofall's case AIR 2010 Supreme Court I think 2550. Every High Court here was directed to frame the rules pertaining to public interest litigation and by virtue of those rules now so far as public interest litigation are concerned there is a specific format prescribed under the public interest litigation rules. So your petition if you're filing a public interest litigation it has to be in that format. Otherwise in so far as petitions are concerned you are free to evolve your own method you can apply your own imagination and make a best draft of a petition but I just since time is now very short five minutes are left out so I will just take you to the basic parts of petitions so that you can compare these parts of petition with the plane what are the parts of the plane? So parts of the plane is basic facts so facts are to be set out cause of actions are to be set out then valuation aspect is to be set out and then prayer clauses to be set out and there is one more requirement for furnishing address of the defendant and the plaintiff so these kind of requirements are basic requirement documents are not supposed to be annexed as annexure ABC but they are supposed to be produced as a document list which is known as D-list but so far as the petitions are concerned they are to be marked as annexure ABCD or whatever you may choose P annexure P1, P2, P3, etc. and if you are filing a reply to the affidavit so petitions are decided on affidavits whereas in a suit it is a full-fledged adjudication adjudicatory process where not only plain and written statements are to be seen but the documents forming part they are to be proved and if the documents are proved then their effect will have to be seen and then oral arguments examination in chief cross examination and sometimes reexamination and thereafter oral arguments takes place and thereafter judgment is delivered and it is followed by a degree that is a system so far as civil suits are concerned but so far as the petitions are concerned the drafting format is totally different first of all there is a cost title where you will have to describe which provisions of constitution you are invoking that is first requirement if you are filing a petition invoking article 226 you must state that it is a petition under article 226 of the constitution of India or if you are filing a petition under article 227 it must indicate that it is a petition under article 227 sometimes people write it is a combined petition so some portion partings 227 and some portion partings 226 so they may write that it is a petition under article 226 and 227 of the constitution of India and under which law the petition is arising because the high courts are functioning by the roster fixed by the chief justice you are all aware that in high court variety of cases come like land laws matters so it has been assigned to a particular judge criminal matters, criminal appeals are assigned to a particular bench bill applications are assigned to a particular bench or a judge then washing matters, other matters are assigned then service matters are assigned to a particular judge so your cost schedule also must indicate as to matter is arising under which law whether it's a service matter or non-service matter whether it is a land laws matter or it is a matter arising out of the municipal laws like municipal corporation act, municipality's act or town planning act, et cetera, et cetera or there may be other statutes also so second aspect which should be stated in the petition is that you are invoking which law so when you write this the registry will be able to decide before which judge this matter is required to be listed when it is to be listed so that is a very important fact so far as petitions are concerned and one must keep it in mind and usually the advocates do keep this in mind and second aspect is that if you are saying that particular orders are violating of article 1416 19 or 21 then you should also write after first you have written that it is a petition under article 226 or 227 you can say that it is for seeking enforcement of article 1416, 21, 300, capital A, whatever may be the case then what is the law which is you are invoking so that registry is in a position to decide before which judge it is to be placed and the next thing which I would recommend which may not be mandatory but you should also give brief description of the challenge what is the order and the challenge in the cost title itself so that when judge reads this petition at your home he will have an idea that what kind of order is impugned in the petition and then he will immediately go to that order and he will have a clear idea he may not be required to read the entire petition this mention of this order impugned order in the cost title will immediately give an idea to a judge and he will directly go to that otherwise he will have to search in the petition which order is impugned sometimes lawyers are so careless that they even don't mention which annexure is which order is impugned and it is at which annexure or page number so when judge reads the prayer what happens he says that be pleased to issue so and so to posh and order dated so and so then it is not preceded or it is not mentioned that which is the annexure or what is the page number in the prayer clause so I would recommend that it has to be not only written in the cost title also but in the prayer clause you must distinctly state that be pleased to posh and set aside the order dated so and so or respond number so and so in bracket annexure P1 or P2 whatever it may be and page number also so that judge may not have to waste is trying to look at the impugned order so that is one more requirement in the cost title as well as the prayer then comes the other body part means who should be the petitioner who should be the respondent there are a variety of disputes and differences or cases where whether a single petition or more than one petitioner can join in a single petition when petition is to be filed by a partnership firm when petition is to be filed by a proprietorship firm whether it should be by the name of proprietorship firm or partnership firm whether it is when it is filed by a company who should be the petitioner and who should be the respondent so it's a art whereby you will have to find out what kind of cost title is to be made who should be the petitioner it is also an important task who should be the petitioner So you should have a clarity and you should, for guidance, you must refer to the provisions of CPC also and certain judgments whether more than one petitioners can join in a single petition or not. They are the judgment of the Allahabad full-page high court that is state of UP versus Umeshtian which is reported in AIR 1984, Supreme Court page 46 where this issue has been very clear discussed whether more than one petitioners can join in a single petition whether unregistered association can file a petition or it needs to be a registered association. All these things are discussed in this judgment. Then comes respondent, how to describe the respondent. In a civil suit there is a distinction I forgot to mention. In civil suit when you refer to the state of particular state or union of India under section 79 rate with order 27, mere reference of union of India is sufficient and he is a defendant, union of India is defendant, you need not join a particular department at all. It is not expected from a litigant that he should know who is the concerned department. It is to be deemed defendant if it is a union of India, the description union of India is sufficient, nothing more. Then if it is a state, then if you are from a state of Madhya Pradesh or state of Gujarat or state of Maharashtra, then description is state of Gujarat or state of Maharashtra is sufficient because the government leaders are standing counsel for the state. And if union of India is there, then central government standing counsels are there. They are notified officers who are authorized officers to receive a copy on behalf of the union of India and state consent and therefore the secrecy simply insists that mere reference of union of India and state is sufficient, it may not be followed by which department or but if you are filing a petition against a particular officer also in addition to a union of India or a state of Gujarat or a state of Madhya Pradesh then you need to give description of that authority also as a defendant or a respondent. So this is this, you must keep it in mind because these kinds of questions frequently arise if a trust wants to file a petition or a complaint, then who would file? Because trust is managed by managing trust is a border of trustees whether all trustees are to be joined as plenty for the respondents as the case may be or defendant as the case may be or managing trust can file a petition or a complaint. So all these issues which are required to be borne in mind while drafting of a complaint or a petition. In the petitions the first respondent is usually union of India or the state as the case may be, consent state. As I said that I am of the firm view that in petitions also if you give description of first respondent who is usually a nominal respondent that is union of India or state consent this description is sufficient but if you are because the petitions stand on a different footing because you are challenging the order of some authority then that authority also needs to be joined by a specific designation and if you are making allegations of malafide then that person should be joined by name also. So these are the requirements of a petition before the High Court under article 226 but it may not be strictly required so far as the claim is concerned. So you should be very clear as to who should be the respondents if you are seeking certiorary. Earlier law was there or even law today is there that whether judicial authority or criminal should be joined as a respondent because that is the authority whose record is called for examining and then if it is not on proper then by rate of certiorary it is post and set aside. So tribunal or quasi-judicial authority needs to be joined as a participant or not it is also a very important issue and for that I would request all of you to read the judgment of the Supreme Court which is reported in 2015-9 SCC page 1 that is Shree Jogendra CG Vijay CG versus state of Gujarat where the issue was whether if in a petition under article 226 seeking certiorary if tribunal or court is not joined as a party respondent whether letters patent appeal means intra-court appeal would be maintainable or not that was the issue and the Supreme Court said that it is not a mandatory requirement and the maintainability of letters patent appeal does not depend on the fact whether tribunal was joined respondent or not. So all these things are to be born in mind and then very quickly five minutes I will just take what are the parts first part is facts treatment of facts then second part is legal submission. So the plaint and petition differs on this point also in plaint you are not supposed to make legal submissions whereas in petition it is a combination of suit and it is combination of special jurisdiction and therefore when you are impugning a particular order of the authority you need to point out on what ground the order impugned is flawed and what are the basic informities in the order. So legal submissions have to be there in the petition but they are not supposed to be mentioned in the plane. So after legal submission there is a mandatory paragraph about the prime office case balance of interim relief purpose. So third paragraph would be interim relief whether you are seeking interim relief what kind of interim relief and whether what kind of prime office case there is a tendency that every lawyer would simply write that there is a prime office case balance of convenience and if the interim relief is not granted the petitioner will suffer irreparable loss but then no description is given as to how petitioner has prime office case. So brief description is necessary in this paragraph about how there is a great prime office case in fever, how well it's of convenience is in favor of the petitioner and how irreparable loss is likely to be caused if interim relief is not granted that is required to be set out very clearly in very brief manner not elaborately. So this is a sometimes it is considered to be usual paragraphs, tenographers are simply writing this paragraph. So normal paragraphs are written by stenographers the lawyer simply dictates the statement of facts and then legal submission but you should also take care in writing this paragraph then third fourth paragraph would be whether alternative remedy is there or not because these are discretionary jurisdiction and therefore if there is alternative remedy the high court would not usually exercise the jurisdiction and therefore you must give reference whether alternative remedy is there and whether you have exhausted alternative remedy or not. So that is a fourth paragraph then next paragraph would be whether on the same subject matter whether any other petition is filed or any other case filed or pending before the court because there is a principle known as doctrine of race subjudice incorporated under section 10 of CPC that if some litigation is pending usually no second litigation on the same point should be encouraged and if it has already been decided by some authority whether it would operate as a rate to do it or not all this is important and therefore this statement is also mandatory in every high court that you must make a statement that there is whether you have filed any case in the any other court criminal or Supreme Court and whether it is pending or not and then the prior clause. So these are the broad aspects of the drafting of a petition and plain I have already pointed out the distinction and as I said so at the cost of the petition again so this is an art and it would require great love for this art if you want to have expertise in drafting if you want to excel in the profession you need to have both the skills that that is a writing skill and oratory unless you have this both these are indispensable and for excelling in this profession the writing skill as well as oratory is most important and I think this is sufficient for today's session I thank you Mr. Vikas Chakrat for giving me this opportunity to share my views of course it was the time was little short otherwise I could have gone into details of other aspects also but I wanted to cover very briefly every aspect of the drafting not only just drafting as a skill but what are the tools of the drafting what is the importance of drafting and what are the distinctions between the plain drafting of a plaintiff petition so I have just tried to cover every aspect in a very brief statement before this session and I thank you Mr. Chakrat for giving me this opportunity I think this is sufficient I can just say that once you said that it was not a sufficient time we can say I'm reminded of the famous dialogue it says this is my trailer my friend the rest of the pictures we can continue to take into different parts and if you say that actually this drafting etc is such a wide spectrum to bring all this into one canvas only requires a skill even to demonstrate and substantiate that what is required for it and as you rightly said it's a bird eye view where people can actually gauge it what it has to happen that's only practice and you have to the practice makes the habit as they as they often we say that it is it then bit a bit then a habit so to cultivate a habit of doing better practice can only be it's just like a reflex of the muscles you have to practice more and then you automatically react or what we say because in the drafting you also tell our associates to the effect it is more like a cricket game or a football game that you have to improve your reflexes understanding what the other side can do so similarly is what you visualize at the first instance what the other party can do and he has to contemplate all this then he says first lot of people have asked kindly share the judgments so we request kindly share the compendium of the judgments he's one says how to master in writing the well-draft as I said that maximum reading and clarity of thoughts and clarity of facts once you take instruction from your client you arrange your documents properly and you write down the sequence of events that is most important once the sequence of events is arranged properly you would be very fluent in drafting your plane of predictions so that is the way how one should drop I always insist my colleagues write down one important aspect that prayer must be written down with hands that will impart clarity what once you are clear that what you want from the court then automatically everything would be clear so I would request that sequence of events you must write down with your hands and prayer clause you must write down with your hands so that there is clarity it is legal notice mandatory for a public interest litigation having already sufficient RTA replies it is not mandatory but usually when we file a public interest litigation we insist for enforcement of a statutory duty by someone some authority who has failed to neglect a failed or neglected to perform its duties discharges constitutional obligations or other kinds of obligations then in that event you should at least demand performance of the statutory duty because essentially would be demanding Monday bus read in the nature of when the bus and their insistence of demand and refusal thereof or in the audited delay in replying to your demand that will give you a cause for a filing in public interest litigation otherwise public interest litigation always you think what kind of public legations are filed usually that means corporation is not doing this these parties are not deep this pollution through what's are not checking the pollution so essentially they are seeking enforcement of the duty or constitutional duties and therefore it is necessary that you at least demand enforcement and if there is refusal or inaction then it is necessary it may not be a notice like section 18 notice but at least the authority must be put to notice but that is the answer this is can a person one person fire repetition as a partying person where two other petitioners are involved I think three petitioners are there three one is a one he says that he wants to find a person I believe that see if such a situation is there he can appear for himself and so for others are concerned I am it is doubtful because he is not a lawyer and whether he could be authorized by two other persons to represent their case because only lawyers have a right to practice otherwise everyone will do like that so I have a serious doubt so for a he himself is concerned if they the high court rules permit my party in person is allowed to appear and he can appear for himself but so far as other petitioners are concerned even if he possesses an authority to appear on their behalf it would be short of it will not be permissible because otherwise advocates like would be redundant everyone would give an authority and he will appear that is the only authority represented in the lawyers who are given licenses are entitled to appear yeah and in so far as the joint petition is concerned that 87 Supreme Court is also there which says that a joint is maintainable and part of it says and promotion also deals with that factor in the promotion where it says you need not complete everyone but a representative capacity can be yes yes yes and yes Nakhara's case also all the pensioners it was filed on behalf of many pensioners but it was not a registered association of the pensioners but despite that the Supreme Court entered in so there are I think large number of them but these issues have not been directly dealt with they have been entered in so merely beer because they are entered in you cannot argue that it's a precedent that more than one person can file a petition and it has to be entered in but so far as judgment of the Allahabad I court that is the state of UP versus nation which is I think reported in the AI in 1984 Allahabad of age 46 that gives complete answer and there is a judgment of the Gujarat I court which is reported in 1975 GLR pay 368 that is Chatur by Dinesh by Patel versus Tito Pujra he is that judgment says that if the grievance is common if parties are agreed by a common order common notification or common inaction then in that case all the parties can join and join petition by more than one person is maintainable and if it is unregistered association also there may not be problem only thing is that suppose unregistered association files a petition that has to be the authorization by all the members that is permitted to file in the name of the unregistered association though it has no legal entity but in petitions all these technicalities are not even that much important I think in the law what has traversed maybe I can stand corrected it says let's assume somebody files on unregistered organization and let's assume that repetition stands dismissed or a suit stands dismissed so it cannot bound down the other persons so that area is there and now the law is developing that it should be preferable I said that it should be backed by the authorization of all members of the unregistered association that okay you violated them nor through the elected member by us and it will bind us if that kind of authority is given then probably there but sometimes it so happens some somebody files old retired old association retiree association welfare association so it has its own challenges thank you mr. Pandya it was a quite fascinating session thank you at the way it helped picked up on the YouTube it's gives a teaser to the effect that people will actually cherish it for all times to come thank you everyone stay safe thank you this and on Sunday do stay connected with us we have acting Chief Justice from where Mr. Pandya is there Mr. Vanit Kuthari and then former acting Chief Justice of Madras Bar Association also who will give us the procedural aspects of the arbitration act and that will be bilingual that is Hindi and English combination do stay connected with us at 6 p.m. everyone stay safe stay bliss thank you thank you


Every single day you need to be trained with your team. We do a lot of role-playing individually back and forth. Some mornings we do the circle closing challenge, which is we ask a closing question, then the next person has to ask another closing question and we have to keep going. If you hesitate, if you show a lack of confidence, if you don't actually ask a question and you say a statement, or if you repeat the same thing the person before you just said, or something you've already said, you're kicked out of the circle. And we keep going until it's only two-left and somebody wins. And we've done it so far, not today but three in general. Three boys won't evolve. I always give them money if they beat me so we're going to check out today. Let's get ready, let's get ready, stay with us. And get in close or whatever you want to do. Okay, let's go with, which would we go last time, this way? Now we're going to go clockwise, starting with, so it's going to be this way? Yeah. Starting with Maven. We're going to do 10 or 20 leads today. What you want to use for your leads? Fire of regular final expense. Which area would you like to target? How many leads would you like to start with? What's the good call now button for the ad? What zip code are we going to target? What's the middle on this little card? What's the CDV on the card? How many leads would you like? How many leads do you normally get in a week? What zip code do you want to target? Do you want to make a little money or a lot of money? Do you have any other agents to work on? How many leads do you use in a month? What's the center city for you, baby? How often do you call your prospects, once a day or twice? Hey, hey, that's good, that's good. Are these only for you or are you sharing them with your agent? What number do you want to use for the call now button? Do you want a 50 mile radius or a 25 mile radius? Balance Spencer Medicare. You like all of your leads at 100% exclusive, correct? You want slower fast leads. Why for more protection? Middle additional on your card. You love that they are exclusive, right? Right. You would love to set at least 50% of your leads that you talked to, correct? Wouldn't you like an inbound call from your leads? What's the expiration date of your card? What's the number on your card? How much card are we going to use Visa, Master of American Express? How many appointments are you normally setting every week? 50 or 100 leads for you and your agents. Do you want trial tins? Yeah! This is not easy, by the way. All right. Okay. All right. How many people are you talking to per week? Full state or local. Instead of 20 leads, how about 25 leads a week for a whole month? Are you trying to write 10 or 20 apps in a week? Are you writing final expense? This week or for the whole month of leads. Do you have any more people that you would like to get leads besides yourself? Face to face or over the phone sales. Do you have a mentor? He got me. All right, keep watching. Is it my turn? Yeah. What's the best zip code for us to target your campaign for? 50 or 75 leads. Do you want your name or your company's name on the leads? How many times do you... Hey! Robbie's hot! Do you have a mentor? No! He needs to be on the training team. All right. All right. To the left. Fantastic Carter American Express. What's the zip code that you want to use? Are we going to be doing leads for yourself, your agency, or all of the above? Do you want 25 or 50 this week? Oh, come on. Let me tell you. It was not this good. We had to do this every single day. You got to keep your agents training. You got to be as sharp as attack like I was today. Boom. I love it. I love it. I love it. Hey, they just won 20 bucks a week.  The key is have some fun, right? He got me. Do you have a mentor? I'm like... I've never heard that, right? That's good. Okay? But the key is you got to be confident. You can't hesitate. You got to always be finishing with questions. Have fun with your sales team. Train your sales team. Throw them some money.  And we have a blast doing it. This is the... I don't know if I've ever heard this. Circle closing challenge. Let's go. Let's go.


Hi, my name is Renee and I'm an Australian, but I live in California. I moved here in 2012. I left a very narcissistic family in Australia and then I came out here to have a new life with my daughter and we've had some really good years here. We've had some challenging times because it's just been me and her but we've had some really good years here. Back in 2017, I was not looking for a relationship, but I happened to meet my ex-covert narcissist in, I think it was November 2017. We met online and from the minute that I met him that night, now that I look back, there were definitely red flags. I mean at the time, I've been, I probably was smoking a lot of weed and partying a little bit so my judgment was not great, even though I had narcissistic knowledge, I already had narcissism knowledge because I came from a family of narcissists, so I already had narcissistic knowledge and in 2006, when I discovered it, I created a Facebook page, one of the first narcissist pages called Exposing the Narcissist and that was very, very, very popular. It's still going strong, 14 years going strong, but nothing, nothing prepared me for a covert narcissist. I wasn't aware of this, I wasn't aware of a covert narcissist and this is what I was dealing with when I met my ex. So it started, now that I look back, it started probably the night that I met him, we were on a date talking, having a good time, but he did use the opportunity to tell me that his ex cheated on him and I remember thinking at the time, why would you tell me this? If only you just met me, why do you need to tell me that your ex cheated on you? Like I didn't have any desire to talk about my exes. I don't know why he felt the need to tell me that, but I actually do know now because a covert narcissist, they work on sympathy. They use things like sympathy and victim, victim-ness to hook in their, their partners and at the time, I, you know, I was new guy, I didn't really care, but I think unconsciously it did hook into any kind of sympathy that I had and he started that, from that date, he started immediately with the love bombing that whole week. He was contacting me and saying, oh, I'm whooped. What have you done to me? I'm whooped. Oh, you're, you're amazing.   And I just thought this is a little much, but, you know, he's not doing anything wrong. He's not saying anything wrong.  Maybe I am amazing and he is whooped. And so that was his tactic. And he pretty much did that the whole time I was with him. It was just a constant barrage. I would call it psychotic flattery now at the time. You know, in the narcissism world, you call it love bombing, but I would call it, yeah, psychotic flattery, because that's exactly what it was. It just became psychotic. And, and, and I didn't feel that I had the freedom to just tell him, look, can you stop this? Because it's like, how do you, how do you, even somebody healthy would feel a little bad to tell someone to stop complimenting them constantly? You know, it was intrusive. I would be, might be focusing on work or I might be reading a book or looking out into the sky. And he was constantly just interrupting my train of thought to get him back to him. And, you know, and it just didn't, it just didn't seem right. It didn't seem balanced. And I also felt this obligation to have to, to, to compliment back. And that's when the inner stuff started with me. Because I was going against my own true self. When you start feeling an obligation, or you're feeling guilty, because, oh, wow, he's complimenting me all day long, I probably should do the same. And then it doesn't feel authentic.  I mean, I'm not, I'm not giving him that love back. Maybe there's something wrong with me. Maybe I'm unloving. Maybe I'm, you know, unappreciative or a cold. And it wasn't that at all. I just really desired something healthy. And then the diabolical stuff started when, you know, because he was constantly doing this love bombing and stuff like this. And it was all day long. I'd be at work. It would just be constant all day long. And then he would start guilty. If I wasn't messaging him back constantly, he wanted contact from the minute he woke up to the minute he went to sleep. He wanted contact. And I remember just saying to him, well, I'm, you know, he'd go off if, if I didn't, if I didn't message him within a two hour period or something, and I was at work and he owned his own business. I'm like, well, you can be online all day long and chat to whoever you want all day long because you have your own business. You're your own boss. I, you know, I work. I can't just be on my phone all day long texting you. And it would be, oh, but I'm just trying to stay connected.  So the whole ordeal was about guilt and shame. And it was hidden behind love bombing and guilting constantly guilting. Why don't you want to see me? You know, I remember there was one time that I went to, I wanted to have a day to myself. I just wanted a day to myself drive to the beach, have a day to myself, do some drawing and things like that. And I remember just getting absolutely attacked because, oh, you're leaving me out. Don't you want me to come? Why don't you do these things with me? So it became like a competition against the relationship with myself and him. It was almost like I wasn't allowed to have a relationship with myself or care for myself or do something for myself because it wasn't fair to him that he should be involved in everything that I do. And that includes if I want time to myself. And I remember after about a year I told him that I needed to, I just just wasn't feeling it anymore. And that I wasn't attracted anymore, just wasn't feeling right. And I remember him just saying, oh, but I'm so good to you. I don't deserve this. You should stay with me. Why would you leave me? And if I didn't have already narcissistic wounds from my parents, and I was healthy, I pretty much would not have been hooked into that manipulation. But I remember at the time just feeling like, yeah, he really is nice to me. And he really does speak, he's always really good to me. I probably should stay with him. And I feared just feeling tormented if I left him afterwards. So I just thought, I just said to him, okay, we'll just see how we go. So I actually stayed in that for another year. But it was a terrible year because my intuition and my instincts and who I am didn't want to be there. And he was just, you know, he was just constantly manipulating me. And I was falling into it. And it actually became horrifying. It became horrifying. I lived in fear of a guilt trip. I lived in fear of manipulation. I was constantly, even when my time wasn't with him, I was tense that if I didn't get to my phone, or if I didn't text him, that I was going to get a barrage of hundreds and hundreds of texts, because that's what would happen when he, when he was triggered that I wasn't contacting him, he would send me hundreds and hundreds of texts of guilting, why, you know, just whining and guilting about why I should be in contact with him all day long. And that's the way relationships should be, that we have contact all day long to keep the connection going. And I just, I wasn't comfortable with it. The type of person that I am is just, I'm independent, but I want to be in a partnership. I just don't want it to engulf me. And that's exactly how I felt completely engulfed. Like I couldn't breathe. My anxiety was terrible. And I just, just didn't know how to get out of this. And I'm like, after the two years, you know, the, I just said, look, listen, I just can't do this anymore. And then we agreed to be friends. And I thought, okay, good, well, I don't want to deal with any, any cruelty from him or guilting or manipulation. So I'll just stay friends with him. And, you know, and then that year of friendship actually, to me, was more of a relationship that I would want, because he wasn't giving me that pressure to be contacting me constantly because in his mind, he realized we're just friends. So he had no obligation to, I had no obligation to do everything he wanted. And it was better than the first two years. But I just knew that I still felt in my, in my mental time alone, I still felt this, he had impregnated my mind. So yeah, I felt like he had impregnated my mind during that time. I was constantly on edge. If I was doing something wrong, I was going to get some kind of guilting messages. And my, my out was actually when he got the new supply. When he told me he had new supply actually noticed he was over here and he was on his phone. And I said, What are you doing?  I said, Oh, right. Okay. And I remember at the time, thinking, Okay, this is my out because otherwise he is going to do triangulation. Because while I was with him, all he did was compare me to the ex. All he did was compare me to the ex. Oh, you're so much better than my ex. Every time we go somewhere, you're so much, you know, more better company than my ex. When I used to bring my ex here, she used to just have tantrums and be so angry. And you're just so much better than her and so much. And so I was constantly compared to this ex. And I didn't realize at the time that it was triangulation. I understand now that it was. And then part of me, I guess, was intoxicated by being the favorite. I was the favorite. You know, she was the bad one. And I was the favorite. I was, and it was great to be somebody's favorite. So, you know, that was what was happening unconsciously. And I didn't realize it. And then when he said he had the new suppliers said, Well, I just knew this is, I have to be, I have to be, this is, this is it. Because otherwise, he's going to do triangulation with everything he said bad about his ex. He's going to do the same to me. And I actually ended up speaking to his ex. And she actually did not cheat on him. And because I said to her, did you, did you cheat on him? And she said, Oh, God, no, we'd been broken up for months. And then I met somebody else. And my intuition felt she was true. Like if she'd been lying, I would have known it, I would have felt it. But I felt like she was true. She didn't cheat on him. She, I believe that she was not with him anymore. And she'd moved on to somebody else. But I believe that he felt that he had ownership on her. So it felt like to him that she was cheating. She wasn't cheating. She's actually a really nice lady. And so anyway, I ended up getting out of the situation. And this is when I saw the dark side of the covert narcissist. This is when I saw and it has been a nightmare. Like I'm feeling a lot better the last, say, six weeks. But when all this went down, it was so traumatizing. I actually did not think I was going to get through it. I was so anxious. I was waking up with shaking, terrible depression. And I thought, I don't even know if I'm going to be able to survive this. I might have to go back to Australia and get a disability or something. Because this is, I don't know if I'm going to survive the emotional turmoil after this, because he became vindictive. He was sending me text saying how great his new supply was and how she's such a nice girl. And I would say to her, yeah, you said the same thing about me with your ex to me.  You've been love bombing me for three years. And now what you have a new supply that she's the antidote.  He came to my house. He was knocking on my door. Are you better not contact my ex, my girlfriend, my new girlfriend? You better not say anything to her about us or any of these things. It was really, really terrible. And then he, what really did it for me. And I really knew, wow, wow, this is what I've been dealing with all these years was when he sent me messages and said, I have you, I have messages screenshotted from you talking bad about your family. And I'm going to send those to your family. And I said, go for it. Go for it.  And said, I was you were safe for me to vent about my whatever I was dealing with. And so I vented about my family to you.  Why? And, and I ended up just saying to him, you can go and send them messages. I don't care anything that I've ever told you, I've probably told to them we're not on good terms. So it doesn't really matter. You know, we live in different countries. It's it's whatever. Uh, just just knowing that he wanted to be a vindictive person like that. And this is a 40 year old man. He couldn't just let us split and move on with life without him having to triangulate me, him having to be vindictive and revengeful and try to make me fear. And even though I'm built for this because I've known it vindictive covert narcissists. I have known it. It's, you know, and I'm able to defend myself against that. It's still disturbing, especially for someone who spent so long grooming and love bombing me and telling me that he was safe and he was emotionally safe. And I can open myself to him and I can vent to him to then turn around and use that against me for no reason. Just because we was split was very disturbing. It was emotionally very, very disturbing. And I actually ended up saying to him, you know, that's fine. You can send them that stuff. I will contact the IRS and let them know about your illegal business.  You know, I wasn't going to cower in the corner and be afraid of every little thing he did.   So that kept him quiet. And then after that, it was, I went into shock. I just, from one extreme to the other, this saintly man that does everything for everybody and was constantly telling me how great he was and how he's so kind and saintly and only says good things about everybody turned into a dark, vindictive, revengeful nightmare. And after that, that's when the real nightmare began because I had to deal with the aftermath of this, that I went against my own intuition to stay with him. I chose him over me when I knew I didn't want to be with him anymore. And he manipulated me saying that he was so good to me. I had to stay with him. So I had to face myself and was like, well, I chose somebody else's feelings over my own. And it's been, it's been a dark night of the soul. It's been a real dark night of the soul because I had to face myself, which was, why didn't I go with my intuition? Why didn't I, why did I let him guilt me? Why did I, you know, let this happen and staying this for so long? And I did many nights, many nights of just fear, anxiety, waking up, shaking. And, but I've been on a, on a, on a good, you know, healing journey from this. I got back on track with my healing journey and getting in contact with friends that are good for me, that are also on this healing journey, back to this self-love, having trouble with it. But I just keep pushing through. Now, I actually broke no contact recently because while I was with him, I discovered that I went and did a painting course. And while I, in this painting course, I discovered, wow, I can actually paint. I'm an artist. And during that time, I was just painting constantly and just so excited about painting. And I did sense his jealousy. He was, he was jealous that I had this new skill. And so I ended up painting him one, because I thought, well, you know, if I paint him one, then, you know, this will keep him happy and he will not feel excluded. And it's, you know, it's still about him. So I did this really, one of my best paintings and I gave it to him. And the last few weeks, I've not been comfortable knowing that he has this painting, that he ended up being, that he ended up duping me, becoming a dark person, vindictive, cruel, fake. So the last few weeks, I've been like, I'm not comfortable that he has this painting that I did, that is probably one of my best paintings that I ever did. It's in his house, in his room, in the presence of this unappreciative, dark, duping, manipulative person. I haven't been comfortable. So I actually contacted him and I said, listen, I'd really appreciate it. If I could get that painting back, you can keep anything else I gave you, but I'd really appreciate it if I can get that painting back. And so he said that I can. And I just said, well, if you could just leave it outside your job tomorrow, and I'll just pick it up. And we'll just leave it at that. And then that'll be it. So I will feel very, very relieved and much better that I will have this painting back that I did with my whole heart and soul during that whole ordeal. I'm going to save the painting. I'm going to put it up in my art room. And I might even sell it to someone who deserves it because, you know, I don't know, I just want to put it out there. If you've got some God-given skill of creativity, please don't waste it on somebody who doesn't deserve it. Now at the time, I didn't realize there was this dark side of him. I felt it because I'd seen it with his, you know, attacks if I hadn't been texting him or if I was doing something for myself or something like this. But I just want to tell you don't, when someone proves that they are sincerely safe, authentically safe, not just saying that they're safe, but they have proven that they're authentically safe, that your mind, body, your soul and your intuition agrees that this person is safe, then use your God-given skills and talents to bless them. Don't do it on somebody else because you fear that they're going to get upset that you have a skill because that's what happened. And I remember when I bought an RV, I had been watching a lot of tiny house stuff. Oh, you would have thought that I had done the biggest crime on the planet because I bought an RV to do up and he absolutely was, went into the biggest guilty manipulation fest. Oh, why did you buy the RV for? Don't you want me involved in that RV? Why would you go and get an RV?  And the way that I've coped over the years with narcissistic people is that I just rebel. Like I'm just going to just do it anyway. I'm not going to cower in the corner. That's not the type of person that I am, that I'm not going to cower in the corner and do what you want. I may be fearful, I may be shaking, but I'm not going to cower. And I bought that RV and then I did that RV up and I refurbished it and turned it into an absolute glamorous machine. And he sabotaged it because he was a mechanic and I would thought, well, I'll get him involved in this somehow so he doesn't have a tantrum. And so I would get him to do the motor work on it. But every time he did the motor work on it, the RV wouldn't start. I think I sent the RV to him seven times to do certain things, to get it going and wouldn't start. He is a mechanic. How does a mechanic not get a vehicle moving? So I feel like he was sabotaging that whole RV situation. And I still have the RV it's still there. And I still love it. I still have my skills. I'm still working on the self love. Still angry about being duped. And I'm going against my own judgment and intuition. I'm pretty upset about that. But I'm at the end of it now. I'll get my artwork back tomorrow. Hopefully this goes down smoothly. I don't know how that's going to go. The plan is just go to his work. I asked him if he could keep the door shut and just have the artwork outside the door and I'll grab it and I'll leave. And you know, that's the plan. Let's hope that's what happens. Because I'm not ready to deal with an anew onslaught of trauma after everything that I've just been through with him. And I think that's pretty much about it. It's been a nightmare. I believe that the whole experience happened because it was a symptom of stuff that I've needed to deal with with my family. Like I came here. I lived my life here. I'm away from my family. I've been geographically away. But I think that I still have had deep traumas about the the narcissism that I dealt with with my family, which is what was the open door to deal with such a nightmare like him. And I'm on the journey watching lots of videos, doing lots of retreats, taking time to myself, doing my artwork and just hoping and praying I get through this in a better place and a real sense of self love. And when I think about him that I have complete indifference, no hate, no love, just complete indifference. And that's it. That was my ordeal with a covert narcissist.