So I'm a great believer in transitional objects and the idea behind it. Yeah, and the idea behind them. Yeah, it means. Yeah. There's something in me and I don't know where it's come from. It's obviously passed and I have no idea, but I don't know whether I fear is is too strong a sentence to use, but that the client somehow is using a crutch or using me as a crutch. But for what? For moving on. I don't know that that connection that can be seen sometimes maybe as a crutch. It's kind of like we've done the work go and be free and enjoy your life. That's what you mean by crutch. We demystify what goes on behind the therapy room door. Join us on this voyage of discovery and co-creative conversations. This is the therapy show behind closed doors podcast with Bob Cook and Jackie Jones. Welcome back to episode 84 with myself, Jackie Jones and the wonderful knowledgeable Mr Bob Cook. And in this episode, we're going to be talking about transitional objects in the psychotherapy process. Gosh, is it is it really 84 that we've done 84. Yeah. Oh my gosh, I can hardly believe that. That's unbelievable. I'm going to come. I think we should congratulate ourselves and 84. What a number. The average podcast doesn't last more than seven weeks. No, I didn't know that. Well, there's a statistic for you and we've been going for 84 weeks. People start podcasts and literally the average, the only last about a couple of months, seven to eight weeks. Wow. Hey, I want to give you another statistic I read about in the Guardian. Oh, go on. I don't read the Guardian. Four or five months ago. And I said the average life of a psychotherapy stroke counsellor is 11 years. Wow. Oh, I'm coming up to the end of that. Yeah, I did 38. So I was completely. Can you imagine that? Only 11 years. So, well, that's an interesting you gave and I was quite blown over when I found out it was only 11 years. To do four years of training, four years plus years of training to use it for 11 years. That's not a very good statistic. That is it. I don't know if it's even true, but I don't know why they got it from. I think they were looking at therapists in the NHS. Oh, right. Well, I can understand that. It makes a bit more sense. It's a bit conveyor belt-ish in there. There's kind of a lot of clients in and out and yeah. And perhaps they were even calling the third pewter component of social workers. I don't know where I didn't I didn't look to the bottom of the article now. I'm talking to you to find out where they got their information from. Yeah. But either way, 11 years isn't, you know, very small, I think. Well, you did amazing then both. Well done, you. And you're still involved in it now. I think you'll always have a finger in the pie some way or another. Yes, by 72nd year. Yeah. Yeah. You'll be going longer than the rest of us. So onto transitional objects. Yeah. Transitional object, Bob. This podcast is my transitional object. You've pinched my beginning. That's fine. No, that's fine. Yeah, for all the, yes, that's right. So it's, it's, yeah. Transitional object comes from a very famous psychoanalyst as a term I mean, a very famous psychoanalyst who coined term transitional object. And that was, I think he did. I've always thought anyway, but that's Donald Winnecott. It was a famous child psychoanalyst writing a lot in the 40s, 50s, 60s, 70s. They talked about trans transitional objects. I think people then went on to talk about trans, trans, you know, transitional, transitional situations as well. But it's the idea that we can give somebody an object so that the receiver has the person who gave the object to them in their mind. Yeah. So my therapist, when I first went into therapy, I don't know how long, say it was about, gosh, I don't know about a year in. And I remember the fact that I was going on a holiday or something like that. Can't remember why I was, I must have been I was going on holiday. Oh no, she was going on holiday. And she gave me a bracelet. And she said, you know, I am going to be coming back. And please, you know, this from me to you to remind you, you can touch it and think about it. I can have it, I'll be back when I come back. So, you know, to psychological level. Yeah. I will be coming back. So in other words, you take that bracelet isn't just a bracelet. It has the psychological significance of the positive presence of the other. Yeah. Now, I was, I think I've said it in other podcast, I was adopted. So I had a lot of attachment issues. A lot of where my real mother didn't come back. Yeah. So that's in this. So I'm sharing something in a significance of what it meant therapeutically. Yeah. And it's quite powerful to have one to be given an object like that and two to have that connection with the person, even though they're not there. Yeah. So they, so they end up being there just switching this. Yeah. They end up, they are. Yeah. So the transition object is an object of psychological significance. Yeah. And I've experienced it in, you know, different walks of life. One of the first jobs that I had was a nursery nurse. And often the children would come with a transitional object, whether it was a, you know, the favorite blanket or, you know, something familiar from home. They would bring that in with them every day to nursery. That's right.  And all mothers and fathers have got children who know what I'm going to talk about now is that very young in their lives, I don't know, one and a half, two, something like that. You know, kids, toddlers like to have a blanket or blanket chief or something which reminds them of their mother. Yeah. Security. I think that's what a lot of it is about is safety and security, something familiar, isn't it? Yeah. We'll carry them with them. And I was just reading, I think, or perhaps it goes on television. It's about the toddlers in the Ukraine war that's happening at the moment with Russia. And, you know, some toddlers being found and they were clinging on to their teddy bear or their handkerchief or their mother or father, something which represented security for them. Yeah. So the garment, the object carries huge psychological significance in terms of safety and security for the other. Yeah. Toddler. Yeah. Yeah. And that's why that object is called transitional by Winnicott and became a term used in counselling a psychopathic parlours. Yeah. Yeah. Something I was made aware of with the fostering as well. Tell me a little bit more, then. Well, you know, the children would always come with the most random things. Do you know what I mean?  But to them, it was something really important and it meant something to them. So, do you know what I mean? Part of our training was to never throw anything away, whether it just looked like a piece of paper or a bit of newspaper, whatever it was. Do you know what I mean? Like you'd go into a child's bedroom to tidy up. It was really important that everything was left in there. But when the children were leaving our carer moving on, you know, we always made sure that they had a card and a gift from us, whether they were going back home or going on to another foster carer. Really, really, really important in terms of security, psychological significance. And in fact, in terms of their own identity. And part of their history. Yes. Some of these children had moved on multiple times, you know, and I suppose, depending on the village, it's part of their history where they've been and who they've lived with and everything. So, at some point in the future, they might want to put the pieces together. Yeah. Did you, I don't know what it's called.  Yeah. The local authority used to have a book about me where we could. And as a foster carer before a new placement came, we gave them a book about us with a picture of our house and who lived in the household and pets we had and, you know, the local park so that when they were here, things were familiar on the first day. Yeah. Really important. Yeah. I do. I've always used transitional objects a lot in therapy, especially when I'm away. And I suppose I didn't copy my therapist's process, but it was important for me. But, you know, it's something which I think is really important to security for the other. I remember I've got countless stories where I've given valuable objects. Well, for me, it's usually I remember I created and kept gems I liked or crystals that I liked or so that I could give them to clients. Not just when I went away, but some clients from session to session. Yeah. To be honestly, something I've never done. And I used to have this huge silver casket full of gems and stones and crystals. In fact, the more I'm talking now, the more I'm remembering. I did it a lot specifically on therapy marathons, specifically in clients who were working aggressively with their younger self from session to session. Yeah. And sometimes they took it away from their left therapy and sometimes they gave it back. Either. Yeah. Either those fit into their clinical treatment planning, but they became important psychologically. Yeah. Because it's like continuity and connection, isn't it? Yeah. Continuity, connection, stability, identity. But I think I'm not going to say that I'm not going to say that. Continuity, connection, stability, identity, but I think psychological presence for those things. I'll tell you what, you'll see that a lot. It's slightly different. It's way from the therapeutic room. But there's a television program my wife really likes watching, which is called the repair shop. Ah, yeah. I love that. I cry every episode. Yeah. And people bring in objects. Um, which are very significant from them. And they often are objects from their own childhood. Yeah. Um, which have got a bit tattered. And the experts repair them. Yeah. And the people coming to collect the object or, or whatever it is.  Uh, a very emotional. Yeah. Members, it reminds them in terms of what you're talking about continuity. Yeah. History. The people gave them that sense of, um, process. So it's in the same ballpark. It is. It is. And it's interesting on that program and I'm presuming things, you know, in the real world is that they don't want it to look brand new. They want it to still look a bit battered and a bit tattered around the edges. So it shows the history of how far it's come and who it's belong to and things. That's, that's, it's the same sort of in the ballpark. So that's psychological significance. Now in the therapeutic world, you will. You'll decide clinically, but, uh, they may just keep the transitional object for one session, three sessions till they leave therapy and give it back again. Yeah. Part of a therapeutic process. But sometimes I've said, just keep it. And even, you know, even if you see therapy as a stage of your life, you might look back at it sometime and remember me and what we've achieved and where you've come. Yeah. Yeah. Which, you know, I quite, I like that. Oh. As a reminder to them. Yeah. I think one of the, um, relational needs we all have. And certainly Richard Erskine, who was a mentor of mine, um, talked about was the relational need to express love. And. I know many, many, many, many of my therapist when I've left therapist might often bring a present or something like that. And of course in our ethical code, you know, we aren't allowed to accept presence particularly. And I know in social work codes there are many others they aren't allowed to argue. So there's a whole clinical thought about it all. However, if it's something of a smaller significance, I may well accept it. So if it was, you know, some sort of, I don't know, crystal or something. Yeah. See, our clients have the relational need to express love as well here. And I think often, as I said, the transitional objects are from the heart. Yeah. Yeah, definitely. It is a relationship that we have. Obviously it's a therapeutic ethical relationship, but it is a relationship and to, to decline a thoughtful gift is, you know, it's quite disempowering for the other person. Yeah. And it has to be, of course, within, you know, not of much monetary significance. Exactly. Yeah.  I just think when I, when I finished, and I was thinking of people I finished with, it's only put in ways, face more book of poems that that's written through therapy. Yeah. That was the expression of love. Yeah. I think, I think, I know we have boundaries and ethics and everything else, but these transitional objects have certain clinical, you know, thoughts, you know, with them in terms of providing continuity, identity, psychological stability and are really useful. Yeah. To reflect on for therapists to think about how to use them clinically. Yeah. And particularly I quite like the idea of the casket that you had.  Yeah. I think if you talk about potency, then what you just described there, in my experience, as a high level of potency. Yeah. I'm a great believer in transitional objects and the idea behind it. Bob? Yeah, and the idea behind them. Yeah. What it means. Yeah. There's something in me and I don't know where it's come from. It's obviously my past and I have no idea, but I don't know whether I fear is too strong a sentence to use, but that the client somehow is using a crutch or using me as a crutch. Crutch for what? For moving on. I don't know. That connection that can be seen sometimes, maybe as a crutch. Yeah. It's kind of like we've done the work, go and be free and enjoy your life. It depends what you mean by crutch.  Oh, okay. So you mean, over dependability? Something around that, yeah. That what you mean? I think so. Yeah. Yeah. So for a lot of clients I saw in their lives, they'd never had anybody who was dependable. Yeah. They'd been let down. Life had never been unpredictable. They'd been abused, neglected, et cetera, et cetera. So actually, to find a therapist that was dependable was remarkable. Yeah. So I thought it was very important, and I still do, to cultivate dependability. Now, of course, there's many articles written about the negative, so-called negativity of that. And I think that's what you're talking about, where, I think that's why you use those words, where the client can become over dependent so they don't actually move on. Yeah. Now, in the context of what you're just talking about here, has that thought process come from what we're talking about in terms of transitional objects? How did you get there? I think it's always been there with me being a therapist, to empower the client to be okay without me, if that makes sense. Yeah. No, I think that's completely right, by the way. But I think there's a process to it. Yes. Yeah. You can go, I don't think it's good clinically, if you move from A to Z. Yeah. It's a process, not an event, one of my favourite sayings, but I think it's really good. I used that today with somebody, but it's about, you know, I couldn't have done this without you. You're the one that... Maybe it's true, by the way. All those thoughters say, I don't know. No, no, seriously. I think for many, many people, they come along and they have a really strong relationship with a really competent, good therapist. They might not have been able to do it without them. I mean, there's a truth in that, surely. I mean, if they hadn't got to therapy and they carried on perpetuating their script, they could end up in the exact same place for years and years and years and years and years. So I think coming to therapy, having that co-creative relationship and somebody who believes in them, somebody who's being a trained professional can take them to a certain process has certainly played a part in helping them change. Of course, it's them that changes. I understand that. But the client does... Sorry, the therapist does play a part. Even if he's only as a witness. Well, yes, a witness or an agent of change or something. I don't know, but maybe it says a lot about my script.  What about... OK, let's... If I reframe that, I don't want to discount your... No, no, and I... If I wanted to reframe that, I'd like to think of transitional objects as the agent of transformational change. Yeah. I love it. And I think doing this podcast has kind of given me permission that it's OK to have transitional objects and to use those in a therapy test. Agents of transformational change. Yeah. In other words, they provide the mechanism or to have the person achieve transformational change if you want to do it that way. Yeah. So they're part of transformation rather than some negative process. Yeah. Or I know what it is, or a fear of infantilisation. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. See, I think the opposite. I think it can help people move away from infantilisation to transformation. Yes, and I suppose the more I'm thinking about it and the more I'm talking about it, it's about the intention that's behind it as well. Absolutely. Yeah. Absolutely. I think, you see, I think it's really important that I know so many therapists that people accuse of infantilisation. And I know that some therapists that actually I think spends too much time in the regressive places and actually may, you know, fall into that process. And I also want to say that we're talking about transversal objects, particularly here, that they can be used in terms of the opposite of that, helping a person work through their relationship needs and grow up. Yeah. Yeah. Because again, that is part of therapy, is modelling appropriate relationships and then ending those relationships appropriately. Yeah. The world won't end if we do that. Yeah. That is why some therapists will insist on the client giving back the transversal objects as a symbol of going up and being adult. Yeah. Yeah. So it's a tool to use. Oh. Yeah. You know yourself, you work in foster homes. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. And we did always, you know, give them something to move on with or whatever. Yeah. So it's interesting, isn't it? It is. It is very interesting. Yeah. What a wonderful topic. We haven't got a one for the next one, have we, Bob? We've not decided. Well, I sent a list to you. You did. I think we've gone through most of them, Bob, you know. We're doing okay. Okay. We'll send you another few. One that I would like to do, which I think is quite good that we've written down here, is mistakes in the therapy process. Okay. Let's have mistakes in the therapy process. You're sure we haven't done it? I don't think so. No. We haven't done it. Let's do that. And I'll send you two or three more. Okay. Okay. Right. So that'll be episode 85. Mistakes. I like making mistakes. Oh, look. How can we... You can't prove it. You can't make mistakes. So, but let's, I'll save that to the conversation on the next podcast. Yeah. None of us are perfect, Bob. Oh, that's absolutely true. Thank goodness. Yeah. Who'd want to be perfect? Oh, that's it. Let's leave it for the podcast. Okay. The podcast. Until next time, Bob. Yeah, yeah. Take care. Thank you. Bye. Bye. 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