Good evening and welcome to tonight's episode of the private property podcast. I'm your host as I'm doing a come on This is episode 10 of the podcast and this evening I'm joined by Michelle Kohan who's going to be talking to us about how to increase the value of your property And now of course this topic is actually quite a hardly contested one, especially given You know the time that we're finding ourselves in and how we've been saying that it's largely a bias market But in the same breath, they're probably going to be some distressed sellers So Michelle is going to be helping us know better understand valuing our property for want to sell And also just making sure that you don't out-priced yourself too much Michelle. Thank you so much for joining us this evening My pleasure good to be here So I think Michelle I mean before we even look at some of the more Cosmatic changes that one can potentially make when they want to increase the value of their property It would be remiss of us not to actually look at where we're currently finding ourselves right now in the property market I mean, there are probably some property owners who very likely may Have valued their property suppose three six months ago And they're probably sitting down and thinking the value of my property is very likely not going to be what the value was Three or six months ago How can we you know if you could just help us kind of decipher that and even help people at home? Understand that they definitely is going to be an impact on the value of their property right now given the global crisis that we find ourselves in Sure, so The truth is that nobody really knows where our markets going to be once our lockdown period is over and it would be Silly of me to even try and assume what kind of property values We'd be able to put to properties once the lockdown period is over But I can't tell you what is currently happening in the market with without without portal with our website with our inquiries People who viewed properties Two three four five months ago are now coming back to the agents online My agents are also working virtually as most are And they say you know I saw that property a few months ago. I've just gone online. I've had time I've looked at it virtually. I see the price has gone down a little bit. I'm keen to talk about it so I think the fact that the interest rate has been has Decreased twice in the last month has a huge impact on the fact that property will still sell but on the other hand It's going to sell it the correctly pressed Mark in the current circumstances and what that mark is nobody knows what property needs to be listed You need to have a really good agent who is giving you continual feedback in terms of what people from the portals are saying and Judging by what the buyers are saying and the kinds of bioactivity even in this market now where people are sitting at home and looking online That's what's going to indicate how our property prices are looking off to the lockdown period There's definitely more movement in the under one point eight one point nine million round price range The lower you go the more activity we see in terms of interest and interesting enough We've actually had one or two offers that have come in People did see the property prior to lockdown the sellers were reasonable that drop their price a little bit and the sale happened. So We still in a market where property is going to happen. There's no question about it and you know Michelle if you can perhaps give us a sense of How the percentage that these properties are going down by you're saying that these you know quite significant movement in the properties below One point eight million are you know our sellers going down by five ten percent or more and or And how much are the buyers asking for let's so when they're interacting with your agents, you know How much help bullish are they in trying to negotiate for a lower price? Prior to the lockdown period I found the whole of last year property prices were selling for between 30 and 40 percent lower than what the asking price was So that would that's a substantial amount to come down But that was also prior to the interest rate decreasing and that's also very much in the market that my company works in Which is the market from about 750 up to about three and a half four million The market above that wasn't moving at all from what I understand So I think what we're going to find is now just speaking to our sellers if they are motivated to sell And they actually have a reason that they want to sell their property They are going to sit and they are going to listen and now if they have confidence in the agent that they're working with and they Can see the person's really doing what they need to do. They will hear with that what the agent is saying It's all about the motivation to sell, you know if someone doesn't need to sell They're not going to take less for them what they feel their property is worth Now if you've just joining us at home Speaking to Michelle Kohan who's the franchise owner for leapfrog Johannesburg North East and we're talking about You know how to increase the value of your property But really more specifically looking at pricing your property I mean we're currently in very unprecedented time property wise So do you for a lot of us who are now in the property market and whether you're a seller You're trying to know Establish what the right price point for your property is and perhaps you might particularly distress seller Perhaps you're not a distress seller. You're already contemplating selling your Property and if you are buying you want to be interacting with the estate agent We want to better understand, you know the value of a property and some of the things that both parties need to be Considering as they make that decision if you've got any questions for us on this topic Do ask this below and we'll be sure to answer some of your questions now Michelle I actually want to look at perhaps if you've got any Tips for sellers in particular right because I think Oftentimes we've tended to find and perhaps not so much in the past in the past year because it has been a buyer's market for Quite a significant amount of time even prior to the lockdown But you tend to sometimes find that they're sellers who firstly overpriced their property and then don't want to go down So even when I suppose the estate agent has no had a sit down They've you know, they've looked at the house and they say I think you've overpriced your property And the property stays on the market for a relatively significant amount of time What tips would you give to a seller and especially at this time and let's assume this is of course a motivated seller So not somebody who has a luxury to kind of sit and wait for the perfect offer that may never come What kind of tips would you give that kind of seller in helping them price their property the right way? Well, the most important thing really is to sit down with a qualified career estate agent who can show you Data that's pertinent to where we are sitting now in the property market The good estate agent who specializes in your area will be able to show you the transfers that have registered And you must remember we know a little bit behind because the deeds office is shut one thing and another But the properties that have registered previously But they'll also be able to tell you exactly which properties in your area have sold and the price that they've sold And that's that information is more important than the information that's coming from the needs office Because that's giving you an indication of where the market was transferring prior to lockdown So a good estate agent will know the houses in your area. They'll tell you that household that household There's a sold court. This is the price that the seller achieved there and that's really a very good indication of where the market is a Lot of sellers look online and they and they look at the price that is being asked for a property And they notice week after week that price is coming down and down and down and down and they wonder why that's happening Well, it's happening because the market is not responding to the initial price that you are Asking so a good estate agent couple with common sense is what's going to give you a good indication of your properties So one of the questions that we've got coming in is from Lena Davis and it actually touches on what you've just You know briefly outlined and Lena asks can we have steps on how do we have our property evaluated? Well, that's yeah, that's a good question and Lena we cannot evaluate properties virtually The good estate agents have got to themselves very get up to working remote So what you need to do is you need to contact an estate agent in your area that you're comfortable with and you can do it online Go on to your to your local and private property portal Put your area name in look at who the agent is you selling in your area Maybe phone two or three agents telling where you live Take some really nice photographs of your house because obviously during lockdown I can't come in view but take ten nice photos of your house Email the photos to the agent and on that basis the agent can send you back a virtual evaluation and Give you a good idea of where they think your property should be fast You know, we've listed properties that we've started marketing that we haven't seen yet that we've evaluated on that basis And by listing them and putting them online we starting to see already what the responses and if the buyers are comfortable at that price And that's a very good way and those are the good steps to start in this current market Once the lockdown periods over and your agent can then come over and view your property They can then give you information about what kind of interest they've had online on the property and that gives you a really good indication They're now physically seeing the property you're meeting face to face They can give you advice on on what kind of interest there was in the property They'll show you some statistics the online statistics and then you can make a very good educated decision In a couple of weeks time after lockdowns over I think you know michelle it actually gives us An indication perhaps of where the industry is going. I mean if we're already being able to Virtually evaluate or have our properties evaluated. I've seen even a rise of Virtual tours that are on the rise and we even see some writing on private property.ca.ca Where you know estate agents do a virtual tour of the place So you don't have to you know, you don't have to just look at pictures alone But also there's also the rise of having online auctions. So not having to go to an Auction house in order to do in order to participate in an auction I think some of them are even using platforms like WhatsApp to make sure that they're keeping up with the auction So the property industry is also finding itself having to use different ways and different digital tools To essentially respond to the global crisis But also potentially where we are likely headed, you know in the future Where a lot of times maybe we might even get to a point where People who are slightly more seasoned might want to buy properties without viewing it themselves And I must say you probably need to get to being seasoned before you can do that Or not you know property you buy So Michelle, I think another one that probably had to look at is Suppose then you are not a distress seller because I actually want us to almost differentiate between somebody who's a distress seller because They are more likely to be slightly more negotiable than somebody who's got a bit of you know Time um on their hands. Suppose you're not a distress seller and you're somebody who has a property and you're probably looking at You know offloading it And I know you're saying earlier that you know, we kind of reasonably predict where the market's going to be One thing that's certainly been Quite clear certainly from some of the guests that we've also had on the private property podcast is that it's going to stay a buyer's market for quite a while And so I think sellers are going to probably have to find interesting ways to Make their particular property Uh, I mean lucrative or enticing to the next person What are some of those things that then sellers can do to make it slightly more enticing? So if you're looking at two relatively Identical apartments, let's say both the two bedrooms two bathrooms. They're the kind of area that you want How do you then kind of make the one better than the other? So it might not necessarily increase the value in terms of rents But it might potentially get it sold at your actual price point and faster than the next apartment I just want to go back to something that you said earlier with regard to people putting offers in Virtually without having seen the property Yes, you do need to be a seasoned buyer There's no question about that But also if someone is buying for an investment and it's a rands and cents decision to they're investing in an apartment They know what the costs pertaining to that purchase are they've done their homework They know what kind of rent they're going to get You know, they can buy that property just kind of virtually and not stress too much once they've done all of their homework And looked at everything but if you're going to live in a house You need to walk in and feel it. So I agree with you on that one Back to the question that you asked me now if you have two properties that are next to each other That are offering the same thing And you you working virtually and you working online Obviously the look of the property if it's an online virtual tour that you're doing Really has to be attractive and the photographs have to be good You know, it's better to work with a company That's going to send a professional photographer out to do a video tour to do good quality photographs Make sure that when the photographer comes through that your house is really in photo shape You know, you wouldn't go on TV without your makeup Don't let your home be shine on a portal without without it really being at its absolute best Put the washing away. Put the dishwashers away. Put the lucid down all of those things So that's the one thing you can do the other thing that I think is a really good idea Particularly in this kind of market where people are going to be more and more stretched financially Is to have your home inspected by home inspector if you're living in an older property Where people may be interested But wouldn't like to know what they buy if you have a home inspection report From from a certified home inspector as to the condition of the property and the check down the road who's selling his house same age same Cross doesn't I think that that really does give you the edge because a buyer has a level of comfort that he knows when he's buying In terms of sectional title apartments without are very similar. It's just really about the presentation Online presentation how your photos look through the person is who writes the advert When you're looking through the portals don't go with the estate agents who's making spelling mistakes and not giving the descriptions You know go with the people who are putting in what are the levies What are the costs pertaining to the property every month present your house as professionally as you possibly can online Because the person who's presenting it like that online is going to present it like that love Um, so I think that just having it look presentable be nasty clean be fresh It really takes you back much further The other thing is don't go and spend a fortune on repainting and fixing things up Because there's no guarantee that you're going to get that money back Make the house presentable keep your yard tidy sweep up make it look good But don't spend fortunes of money fixing things because the chances are the person who buys your property is going to come in And have a little bit of money to spend to make it their own and repaint the house and do whatever it is they want to do And it's so interesting that you say that Michelle because you know oftentimes or in certain occasions One of the tips that gets given to Prospective sellers or people are selling is to do minor renovations, right? Whether it's painting a place Um, or even you know, maybe redoing the kitchen or the bathroom, which are actually quite significantly expensive I think those two rooms are Yeah, sorry if I can interrupt you there There's very big differences in in those two things to do little minor repairs to paint your gutters and repair them That adds value To if your boundary wall is really really shoddy and you don't have street appeal and your garden has weeds Fix those things up But don't go and repaint and go through big expense and redo bathrooms and kitchens Because the person coming in may not pay you for that and they may want a different bathroom in a different kitchen So they might not see value in what you've done and I suppose I mean if I look at kitchen and Bathroom renovations. I've recently done that for for one of the properties. They're quite they're relatively pricey to do So if you're going to be doing it, it's either you've got You're going to be selling it at a significantly, you know High amount and you're confident that you'll get it But if it's just a normal apartment and they're quite a number of those on like on the market Then instead it doesn't make sense to spend all that money that you could probably Use as a deposit for another property if you'd like Remember if you're at home and you have any questions around value in your property If you want to sell your property or perhaps looking for a property You can send your questions to michelle and I and we'll address them tonight We've got a few comments actually coming in this evening michelle one of the comments is from Michael for nika who actually says a good indication of correctly priced property is private property stats If you have not received any inquiries within five business days in the middle market section up to 2.5 million There's only one problem mainly giving the condition and location is decent and that would be that pricing is wrong So don't factor agents commission on top of the selling price sales values In your area includes agents commission and perhaps that's something we can talk to slightly a little bit about michelle Is your pricing your property and it's probably a topic We're also going to be talking about tomorrow about the different costs that go into selling the house But because it's just been touched on right now When pricing your property perhaps help us navigate the the commission that of course as the seller you'd be paying Your estate agent should you be pricing it in or should you just budget for that amount? You do need to price it in and there's a few other costs, but you're covering that tomorrow night I'm going to necessarily go into that But you do need to have that evaluation with the estate agent who will price all of those things in So you do price the commission in because the amount that you put your house on the market for Is the the gross amount? So it's the amount before the commission is taken off What happens after that is if you're selling your house for a million rand and you get the million rand for your house The the estate agents commission comes out of that million rand if they're getting five percent plus that The 57 000 rand will come off that and you'll get the balance into your account So you must always remember that you do need to factor the agents commission in and when you sign a mandate with someone I'm a big believer in some mandates because you then agree on a price You agree on a commission everything is in writing There can be no dispute after the fact and you understand what your net amount is And that's something very important the other thing, please if you're going to sell your house You need to give your bank three months notice They need that 90 day notice periods that you don't have a penalty So there's different things that you really need to get good advice on And when you when you factoring the commission in a good estate agent We'll explain to you exactly how to do that and what your net amount will be after the commission's paid But all the homes that you see online that are being advertised by an estate agent By inclusive of the commission amount that the seller has agreed to pay the agent So the net price to the seller will be less than what that commission is And I think then I know what they're asking for us is apologies Yeah, and I think I mean one of the things we're definitely going to be looking tomorrow at the cost of or the different costs That go into selling your property. So do tune in tomorrow evening Right here at 7 p.m We will be looking at some of them because I think sometimes you may want to sell your home But you don't actually understand that there are costs involved in selling your home And what those various costs actually are and how you can go about understanding what each and every one of them are And even the responsibility that falls on the seller side and the responsibility that falls on the buyer side So do watch out for that episode tomorrow evening another comment coming in Is the downside of pricing is that sellers go for agents with the lease commission percentage? But they sign a sole mandate when their property is overpriced price Consulate is vital. So if the price so price is correct and you should achieve at least 90 percent of the asking price Buyers know more as the industry is more transparent than ever. So give me yours and I'll prove it So of course and and that comment is actually quite interesting that you know sellers will sometimes Go for agents that have the lower percentage and not understanding that that's not necessarily where the biggest value Is or where you might necessarily get the the best sale at the right price or get it as quickly as possible So if you can just help us understand that the lowest percentage isn't always necessarily the better option to go for as a seller So a lot of the time the what you actually pay your estate agent for is their skill It's the negotiation skill their experience their understanding of the market that they're working in Their ability to effectively communicate with people In essence, it's their confidence in their own ability To market negotiate and sell your property for the best possible price So the question then really lends itself to this If the person undervalues themselves as they walk in the door to get business from you and cuts their commission as they sit down Opposite you how do you ever have confidence that an offer that they bring to you has to be well negotiated? Because that really is what part of a big part of what the estate's agent's job is I'm always a believer that in love you get what you pay for and if someone comes in straight off And is prepared to just negotiate and work for you at 50% of what the recommended estate agency of facebook tariff is When they bring you an offer you have to have a question mark in your mind Could they have bought me more did they just go the easy route? And get the first offer they could get and take it and not try and sell my house or not try and negotiate me something better Because when they initially came to see me they sat down and they said wow, I'll take three and a half percent. That's my business model You know, there's easy and there's Efficient and they don't always go together in the same sentence So I think you must also look at what the offering of the estate agent is if a person's Online presence is professional if it makes you feel comfortable if they sit and they make sense when they talk to you You can be sure that when they're representing your property and negotiating on your behalf They will have exactly the same attitude because at the end of the day you both want the same thing You want to get the best possible price for your property? I'm a willing and able buyer And a person who goes the easy route may not necessarily do that for you And we've got more questions coming in remember if you're watching us at home And you've got any questions around pricing your property and navigating the right way to go about pricing your Property do send through those questions and michelle and I will be answering them. We've got One here michelle from colani atiam who asks hi michelle How do we solve a problem of a seller who doesn't want to meet a buyer halfway? You put in a lot of effort to bring the buyer in to put an offer that is reasonable, but the seller will refuse Hello colani. I know you personally Thanks for the question How we resolve that issue is the first thing we do is we ascertain Is our seller really really selling their property? Do they have a motivation to sell are they testing the market? Are they happy to stay there for the next five years till whatever it is till the market recovers? And once you've ascertained that reason then it makes you it makes it much easier to know where you're going to go with an offer My experience has been when we've presented offers in the last eight to ten months Each time we've presented the offer the seller has kind of been very um Dispontant with the price and in the initial offer. They've kind of said, you know what even if they had a good motivation We're not accepting this because the market changed too quickly for what the sellers to to accept um What I found is that when you have a relationship with your seller and when you keep on going and talking to them and Showing them as the previous guy said the stats the online stats Showing them these are the people are bought through your property This is what they've said when the seller sees that you've put the work in They take cognizance of what it is that you say and when you sit with them with an Offer that's a really good offer from a good qualified buyer. You've then got a little bit of experience It takes time people want to know you've done the best for them So they may sit with you with the third offer that you bring them and say well You know what I can see you've really worked for me because now you've kept them updated It's not a quick process It's not a quick story that we just bring people offers that they want in the office or closing It doesn't work like that the seller wants to know that you've really done your best for him You want to know that you've done your best for him? And often it takes a little bit of time for the seller to get these head around where the price needs to be And our job is the agents Is to have the the patience and to have the professionalism and to have the negotiating ability To be able to close that gap between the seller and the buyer to make it a good equitable situation for everybody And it is quite an intricate one because in as much as uh, you know The the seller would have been the one who gets gives you the business You're also working in the interest from the buyer. So it's not Either or it's literally you're the middleman who's meant to Come together and make sure that the interests of both parties are Met as much as possible So that can I interrupt there? I think that's why that home inspectors report is going to particularly after lockdown become a more important negotiation tool I think that when your seller has shown good faith That he's gone and he's got a report on what kind of property he's selling and when you sit with your buyer You say, you know, we've got a completed disclosure document Our seller has told us, you know everything about his house But over and above that he's had someone in who's checked all the things that we can't see we didn't come Climb into the roof and check the roof process. We didn't look at the geezer But he's had someone check that so you know if you're going to pay him close to what his asking class is You know that those things have been checked and they're not going to be for your cost within the next two to three years And this was actually something michelle that we did cover in one of our episodes Just this week the importance of having that inspection in And understanding some of the things that might not be working in on in your property Because the reality is with some of these properties Perhaps it was a rental unit and the owner genuinely wouldn't know what is wrong with it especially because tenon stone always Say that this is what was wrong while I was saying yeah, so the moment you are Viewing a place that I know I've never actually viewed a place where The report was already ready upfront that said these are the things that we are aware of that needs to be fixed And we can either fix them or you're going to buy them knowing that these are Need fixing and perhaps you can use that to negotiate the price better If anything and I was even admitting this on yesterday's episode was that I've I've been burnt a little bit with buying a property that wasn't thoroughly inspected And a couple of months later realizing that oh actually This is something that was you know damaged before I even bought the property And chances are the previous owner may or may have not known but had I had an inspection in Um, then I would have probably known that this is something to flag and either have it fixed or make sure that I negotiate the price Just further down a few more questions coming in michelle We've got one from Lena Davis who asks is it a good idea to approach different agents to advertise for you You see I don't I actually don't believe in that I think the same way that you Have a relationship with one person that you trust and you you want to be with that's kind of how you need to feel about your estate agent You know, you need to decide do you want the quickest sale or do you want the best sale?  Well, you know, there's another agent at work Yeah, any minute someone else can come in to the post and then that's it You know, I don't have an opportunity anymore So I think it's really important to commit to one estate agent and I'm a big believer in working with someone who's an area specialist The person who specializes in your area because the areas do differ You can't work the whole of the greater johannesburg area and know all those areas the areas differ You need an area specialist. You need somebody who has a really good reputation If you want to to interview a couple of agents and after that knock on the door of someone who has a Board outside their house or a sold board by the agent that you've interviewed That's the best way to know who you're going to be choosing And commit to that agent and suddenly mandate and and get the feedback And work with that person and we find out a sole mandate We really find that the prices that the purchases pay and the sellers get is better because there's a level of commitment and understanding That we we conducting business and everything's transparent Um, you also want your property to be shown with one voice You don't want five people showing five different views of what your property is about what the price is what it's offering You want one message out there to the potential buyer and you want that message to be clear and concise and professional And it's actually interesting that you you say that you want your property to have one voice And I've seen with certain properties Supposedly I listed for example by two or three different agents and the price is typically not the same price And sometimes I'll go to the one Who's listed it at the lowest price to actually see if I can't get it even lower And then go to the other one and establish if you can't go lower than the other one So you're almost now trying to put, you know, the various sustained agents against each other so that you get the best offer So I suppose then as a seller you're essentially shooting yourself in the foot because if as a buyer I can already see your property listed by three different people And they're they're they're all willing to negotiate On price with me and I'm just out now to get the lowest possible price that I can I can get I've got a few comments and some questions coming in. I'll start with a comment from Howard Um, what gets I know who asks um who comments rather from the little that I've researched the more the ads one the more the ads Or the more their ads on one property the more the buyers immediately detected the sense of desperation And they'll take advantage of pricing the property down. So it's literally what I was saying just now So different agents would have started that price battle with their different commissions to start with Exclusive and sole mandate is the way to go. So really reiterating what you are saying there michelle And another one is from dural jafta who says what if you're interested in a property that is in a good area? But the home looks in a bad state But the seller wants a very high price and you know, it's not worth that that much As there's a lot of work. How do you go about? Wanting how do you go about wanting to purchase a property like that? Or do you just pass the look for something better? So I think that if something catches your eye on property, you know property if you're going to live somewhere it's an emotional bar and To answer that gentleman who's asked that question The position position position you rather buy the best property the worst property in the best area that you can afford Because you can change everything about a house, but you can't move it to a different subject So that's the first thing the second thing is I think it's always worthwhile to go and look at a property and to have a Discussion with the estate agent and to ask them the questions to say to them the house really isn't in good condition Do you have a disclosure document? Do you have an inspectors report? Has the seller had any offers on this property? How long has this property been on the market for? Those are the things as a buyer that will help you ascertain where the seller's It is and if you really want the house and you see value at a substantially lower price You are most welcome to put that offer in with the agent The agent's job is to present that offer to the seller and the seller can then reject or accept it Often if the price is just so far lower than what the seller accepted They feel really insulted and they won't even entertain a counter offer But you are most welcome to put an offer in at the price that you see And expect that you may may get a counter offer back So don't just walk away from the property because you think that the price is wrong And I think particularly in the market that we are now We're going to find when this lockdown period is over It's going to be very interesting to see the kinds of offers that will come in I'm not saying that the market is going to tank or go down much further than what it is now I don't know, we have to wait and see Logic tells me that our interest rate is lower People are going to be able to buy their dream house They're going to be able to move in the area that they want But they're going to do it at a price that suits them And I think you know one of the one of the things I've picked up along the way is Sometimes just don't be scared to put in a cheeky offer You'd be surprised how many sellers end up going for that cheeky offer and don't even do a counter offer So I think uh, that's the tip that I've gone with when I really want to place And I think it might be overpriced that put in that cheeky offer and it might seem like it's crazy because the asking price is so high Now Michelle, before I let you go, you know, what what kind of delays can people who've already Sold their property right now expect given that you know, we're in lockdown And that for example, the deeds office is currently closed. What kind of delays are they actually looking at during this period? So there's a number of delays from the top to the bottom So if we look at the top the people who sold a number of months ago who waiting for their property to register The deeds office is closed So the deeds office did really make an attempt to register as many properties that they had and they could register Um prior to lockdown But obviously there are still properties that are busy in that process because it is a process that can't rush it The municipalities are closed Which means that even before the property gets into the deeds office when an attorney transfers a property They need a certificate of clearance for the electricity the rates the taxes So the deeds office can't issue that so there's a backlog on that um Moving further down a person whose bond was granted and is now the you know The attorneys are waiting guarantees if they hadn't prior to lockdown gone and signed their bond documents Those guarantees can't be issued. So there's a delay there Moving even even further down to that the person who has put an offer in During the lockdown period the banks are a little slower than what they were previously So all of those processes are moving more slowly What's really interesting is that the vast majority of transferring and bond attorneys that we're doing business with are working virtually So they're really doing as much of the process as they can But documents do need to be signed in person by buy and seller and that you can't get past that The other thing in front of the commission of us. So you can't get past that situation The other thing is that the the banks are working remotely The bond originators are trying their best to work remotely and get documents in from purchases And estate agents are working remotely So as much of the processes can be done Is being done, but without the deeds office communities the ability to sign documents Unfortunately guys the process too is in lockdown You know, that's how it works. So the delays are you're a month behind on everything And and that's very true right now. Michelle.  So in the event where you find yourself Being affected by this lockdown and those delays being placed as a possibility that it may actually be longer now Sorry, can I can I jump in there? Has been a request by the estate agents body revolsa and by the various law societies and the bond originators Of South African various organizations stakeholders in the real estate sector They have they have been requests to the minister to actually allow the deeds office and municipalities to start working Um, we're waiting to hear what the outcome is on that. There's nothing firm yet But hopefully there will be a positive result on that and and you know, they will be able to work on skeleton staff And get at least those processes going And we'll definitely be monitoring that michelle. Thank you so much for joining us this evening That was michelle cohan who's the franchise owner for lead frog Johannesburg east and she was joining us right here on episode 10 of the private property podcast now just to You know, I'd already mentioned this earlier tomorrow We will be talking about the costs associated with selling your home So if you're looking at selling and you're not quite sure what the different costs are Then we'll be looking at that tomorrow, but on friday We're going to be having ask private property where we'll be having a representative from aps of bank So if you have any questions, particularly around bonds, you know, whether it's, you know difficulty or questions that you've always wanted to ask the financial institutions Around that bond application process what banks are looking for when they grant a home loan How do you go about getting a hundred percent home loan? Then do send through your questions and we'll be sure to address them That is on friday after friday evening right here at seven o'clock. We'll be looking at ask private property So do send through those questions. That's it for me this evening on the private property podcast I hope that you are staying home and staying safe and until tomorrow evening. Good night


Welcome, everyone. The name of this meeting is Legal Restrictions on Civil Society. Activists respond to the challenge. And we have until 2 o'clock, and I'm thrilled to welcome you to this session. Excuse me while I read the introduction, so we can get the meeting going. Many of you are aware of the mounting global trend of crackdowns on civil society efforts, efforts by authoritarian states to stifle dissent and otherwise silence pro-democracy and other advocates. Traditional means of repression, such as detention and imprisonment, are now replaced or accompanied by legal or quasi-legal obstacles to conducting rights work. The tools now used by authoritarian states include burdensome registration, tax requirements, and financing restrictions, especially of organizations working with criminalized populations, restrictions on online expression, especially around HIV and sexuality, gender identity, sex work targeted as pornography to speak about the groups that we work with. Hi. Restrictions on freedom of assembly, including pride parades, as recently we've seen in Singapore, meetings of organizations representing key populations, charges of state subversion and terrorism, police abuse raids, targeting of individuals who speak out to the media, disappearance of lawyers, and the usual measures. These measures lead to what's referred to as a shrinking space for civil society to operate and exercise their human rights and promote democratic principles. Harm reduction work has almost always been hampered by hostile environments and limited space. The criminalization of people who use drugs and the failure to use evidence-based approaches to reducing drug-related harms and preventing HIV and Hep C have caused untold damage to global public health, safety, and individual lives. Now this work is further endangered through the systematic violation of rights, these restrictive laws that, for example, are blocking funding and support. Today, we wanted to open up a space to come together and share experiences and ideas for mitigating the devastating effects of these measures being used against civil society. And we have a truly extraordinary group of people from around the world. We have people here from China, Hungary, Iran, the Philippines, Russia, Thailand. We have the international network of people who use drugs. And each will describe the situation that they've experienced recently or that has restricted their ability to operate and maybe share some recommendations and thoughts and just have a conversation to move the issue forward, since it's affecting so many of us. So thank you. And I am Karen Kaplan from Asia Catalyst, based in New York, but working out of Bangkok and Beijing. We build capacity of grassroots groups to advocate for human rights and support communities to build strong organizations to do that, from which to do that. And today, my first, I'm honored to welcome our first speaker, also from Asia Catalyst, Shen Ting Ting, who is a director of advocacy research and policy at Asia Catalyst, a prominent HIV and human rights advocate out of Beijing. She's worked with marginalized communities since her college days. In 2007, she co-founded the Korakata AIDS Law Center with Li Dan. And in 2012, she was the deputy director of its parent organization, the Deng Zhen Center for Human Rights Education Action, where she founded and managed an outreach program for sex workers in Beijing. Ting Ting received her MA in social welfare from Renmin University in China. Welcome, Ting Ting. Thank you. Yeah, thank you for so much for the introduction. I think that's really comprehensive. Yeah, I'm Ting Ting from Beijing, China. I've been working for HIV AIDS human rights since 2007. And first, she started working for domestic NGO, and now I'm working for Asia Catalyst, which is an international NGO. So I have an opportunity to see how the environment has been changed in the past 10 years and how that affects the work of domestic NGOs, but also international organizations in China. In China, the NGO SETA was developed in the past decade. Actually, thanks to the funding and technical support of the international community. And that time, the government has been have a key to close eye to the civil society, and that's why the NGO SETA were able to flourish in the past two decades. And there were quite little laws and regulations directed to regulate NGOs. So it's basically, it's like a great area. So we were able to do work in that space. But in the past five years, there's new development, which that the government has been working towards a more legalized model to civil society. And this does have impact on our work. On one side, we have seen that for Chinese NGOs, it has becoming increasingly easier to register as an NGO with the government. So, for example, our partners that find most of our partners were able to officially register. But for those organizations who are able to register, they have to work really closely with the government, and which means that you have to do work according to the government plan. And for those so-called organizations that are working on so-called like sensitive issues, such as human rights or legal rights or LGBT rights, it's really, really difficult to register. And at the same time, the government, also because China has been, has enjoyed the development of economic and that has seemed as well enough to support its health, the work on HIV. So, many international donors has been with Jorah for China. So, the government plot means that they will support the work of NGOs, so they deep provide funding to replace those international fundings. But those fundings come with restrictions that they put NGOs only in a place that's to do service. The government, for example, we have this HIV fund, and for NGOs working on health reduction, sex workers and NSM, each of them will have quotas, they have targets. Okay, you need to do them, how many numbers of testing this year, how many numbers of follow-up this year, and we only fund that. And besides that, there's no funding for human rights advocacy, there's no funding for legal education, there's no funding for discrimination. Groups working on that kind of work have to rely funding on international fundings. But at the same time, that the government also strengthen the control over international organizations and also international funding. Last year, we have this new law, this new international, foreign NGO law, basically it's a Chinese version of the laws in Russia that requires any international organizations that want to do work in China and want to give funding in China need to register locally. Otherwise, there will be criminal charges for those who violates the law. So it makes those who already were in China in the past 10 years, in the past like decades, become illegal because you have to register. But the registration, in order to register, there was a lot of terms of requirements, including that you need to find a government agent to be your sponsor and you need to be able to provide like a lot of documents and all these manage, I mean, the INGO's work and the funding actually are all managed by the public security. So that is becoming very difficult for many of the human rights work. My friend, Shippon, who is also from China, he will also talk about how that affects the hard reduction work. But I mean, he engaged in the process he engaged in hard reduction about 10 years ago. Actually, that time he would get a lot of support from the Open Society Foundation and other international organizations. But that kind of support is no longer there because of the crossing down of the space, including the funding. So that's the right, these days, there are really few hard reduction groups. I mean, there are still a number of them that's working really closely with government to provide service. But it's a total different picture compared with 10 years ago.  I mean, when we come here, we are the only two Chinese representatives and Shippon had been to like the previous conference which there was like bigger group. So, yeah. So this is the reality we will face and we have been trying to like fight out and identify strategies that we can we can continue the work in China. So I'm really looking forward to also to discuss and hear from you. Thank you. Hello, everyone. I'm from Beijing. I myself am a classmate of Chen Yin-Jing and a classmate of Chen Yin-Jing. I have worked for about ten years on anti-corruption and AIDS. In these ten years of work, I found that the Chinese nationality and the law of self-defense still have a lot of bad factors that cause our work to develop. It's still very difficult. But this work is very important to us. It's very important to reduce the damage of the entire human group. It's also very important to help. I am one of the founders. So today, I would like to focus on two aspects of my work. My name is Shippon. I'm from Beijing, China. I used to be a job user, and I've been involved in heart-reduction work for over ten years. So my ten years of experience helped me to... from ten years of experience, I found that the legal environment in China is really restrictive and very difficult for our heart-reduction activists to do the work. I'm really, really glad to see that many of my peers have left this field. Many of the advocacy work we have done before were not able to continue. So this mechanism has become a kind of a form of communication, and can't be used as a certificate. Once you use this certificate, it will be used as a form of communication by the public system. The police will find out and force you to do the work. So in my work, I've been working as a volunteer. I've been working as a volunteer for almost eight years. I've been a volunteer for eight years. I've been trying to work for the people and the society in the past eight years. But because of the public system, once in the past few months, when my family and I were on our way home, when we were on our way home, when we were on our way home, when we were on our way to the police station, we found out that they said that I was taking drugs and forced to do the work. Because from the police, for over three years, I couldn't do the work. Because of this, I think that some of the human rights caused some problems with the police. When I was defending my rights, they said that I was taking the police. Because of this, I was detained for 12 days. It hurt me a lot. So the public system, if it doesn't work for a long time, if it doesn't work for a long time, if it doesn't work for a long time, for the whole community and the society, it's still very dangerous. But because of the efforts of my colleagues in the past few years, in fact, the government is still very important. It has decided to launch some three-year-old assessment mechanisms. Of course, because most of the people who are working at the police station have been affected, there are fewer people in the community. So the work has stopped. So I'm here to continue the work. So I want to talk about two issues today. The first one is the discrimination against people who use drugs in China and how that creates barriers for high-reduction activists to do their work. In China, we use this database to register drug users. And the database is managed by the Public Security Department. Every drug user in this database and the information actually is linked with your ID card. So whenever you go, a hotel, you go to the train station, you take a flight, you check your ID and actually the person can see that you are a drug user and the police will come and to ask for a unit test. This is one of the two static government use to control the life of drug users.  Myself is a written of this system that I have been stopped using drugs for over eight years, but not long before, just a couple months ago, I was driving a car passing a toy station and I was stopped and I was asked to do a unit test. Later I was put in prison and put in detention for 20 days. But according to the Chinese law, Chinese regulation, for those drug users who has been upstream for over three years, they should be removed from the database and the police shouldn't come to them for unit tests anymore. So the regulation, the laws there, but there's no implementation and there's no one is advocating for implementation of the law. And I have been working on reduction for so many years and I contributed to the community, but myself still suffer such kind of treatment. How can the other peers can evolve in this work? Another important thing is about the drug smuggler. The most important problem is that the drug smuggler can't be brought back for use. Of course, due to the domestic drug smuggler, there are only 9 p.m. to 3 p.m. So a lot of people can't go to work. So a lot of people will bring the drug home. So a lot of police and drug smugglers will take the drug home. So now we want to continue to follow some successful cases of drug smugglers in Yunnan. The second issue is access to methadone. Well, in China methadone is widely accessible that we have over 700 methadone clinics. Even in Beijing, we have 12 clinics. But the service actually is very restrictive. For example, under open hours of the clinic it's from 9 to 3. And Beijing is a huge city. And if you have a job, how can you go there and from your workplace and then to the clinic and then go back to work? It's just impossible. And also because you can't take methadone out of the clinic, you have to drink at a site. So you have to go every day.  And actually many of our peers we are trying to keep the methadone in our mouth and take it out of the clinic because we have to sometimes we need to travel. How can we do with this? But the police treat this as illegal behavior and they wait outside of the clinic and just to detain our peers. Also, just a few days ago I was with my daughter out of the clinic and the police just question me in front of my daughter. I feel really, really frustrated of this kind of harassment by the police. I even want to do this work. So, but I know it's really important for us to kick out the college and to continue to advocate. That's why I'm here. I want to learn from you guys and to take good lessons inspiring respect to China. Thank you. Yeah, sure. Yeah, hello everyone. I'm Peter Sharosi and I come from Hungary, Budapest. I'm from Central Europe with 10 million people and it's a member of the European Union and as probably many of you know, Hungary as many other Central and Eastern European countries was ruled by a communist system until 1990. So, actually the traditions of a free civil society or independent civil society are not so old in Hungary, 20 years old and actually there was never a strong civil society in my region. When we had the change of the system from communism to the western time democracy, one of the great dissidents in Czech Republic, many of you probably know his name, Vaslav Havel said that a totalitarian system can coexist with a market society. It can coexist with parliamentarianism but it cannot coexist with. There is a vibrant civil society and independent civil society so it's kind of very much the characteristic of a free society and now when we see these attacks against civil society all these governments claim that actually they are democratic and they are committed to the values of western democracies keeping parliamentary informalities but at the same time when they are repressing civil society they are repressing something which is very essential for us to live in a free society. So in terms of harm reduction this issue is very important because most of the harm reduction services are provided by NGOs in Hungary and many other countries of the region and in the beginning of the 21st century we saw quite great improvement of coverage in harm reduction services. New needle and syringe programs were created which could reach out one of the most marginalized groups of injecting drug users who are concentrating in Budapest most of these people actually belong to a Roma minority so the stigma and discrimination against them is based also rooted in some racial prejudices and there were two large needle and syringe programs in Budapest which actually provided more than 50% of all clean needles in Budapest so that they were like the simple largest harm reduction programs in Budapest and after 2010 there was a change of government in Hungary a conservative right-wing government took power with Prime Minister Viktor Orbán who is now populist leader and this government actually cut back funding for harm reduction programs it turned Hungarian drug policy to another direction they adopted a new drug strategy in 2013 which aims to create a drug-free Hungary by 2020 which is a very ambitious and very stupid target if you ask me and of course this ideological turn was also there was also some political attacks on these programs especially in the local level in Budapest and one of the local mayors used actually needle exchange programs Cape Goat, needle exchange programs and Cape Goat people used drugs to gain political power and popularity and he organized demonstrations against these programs, needle exchange programs with misled local people he claimed that needle exchange programs are actually responsible for attracting drug users to his district and they are responsible for spreading drug litter on the streets he just cut back their funding and he just made it impossible for them to continue their work so in 2014 both the two needle exchange programs had to close down in Budapest and that means that now thousands of very marginalized or injecting drug users are without any help and without any support and the attack against civil society doesn't end here now just like in China we also import the good old Russian methods to repress civil society our government also introduced the law this year that law requires us NGOs who receive funding from foreign donors or international donors to register as NGOs funded by foreign countries so it's like a foreign agent law and we have to register online we have to fill out sheets when we receive any kind of funding from international sources and each and every publication we have to put a sign that we are foreign agents and right now actually the European Union started an investigation or the European Parliament decided to make an investigation against Hungary but of course it could take years and probably also heard about the issue of the Central European University so now all these two issues are going together and the EU is going investigations but Hungary is a very good example that it's not enough to be part of the let's say the democratic club of countries like the European Union but yeah it's the question of who has the political power in your own country and whether civil society can mobilize people do I still have two minutes or should I have one minute because I just wanted to point out a few like characteristics of populist populism in Hungary and one is that this concept of the people because that's why they call populism that their concept of people is not self-organizing citizens but atomized subjects who have like a privileged relationship with their leader so that's why they think that all NGOs actually want to destroy this privileged relationship between the citizen and then there is like an anti-intellectualism as a characteristic of populism like they are distrusting science, they are distrusting data they don't like experts and actually they amplify this opposition in simple people to things they don't understand because they are very complex problems but that means that we as NGOs we should speak to the people and we should make them understand things we should make much more effort on that and then they also say that political space is an exclusive space only for elected political officials and NGOs has no place to deal with politics and to influence policymaking then they always create conflicts I think that's how they gain power that they continuously creating conflicts with an imagined or a real enemy and they're like it's like really for them when you are taking the conflict and you are fighting them sometimes that's what they want so that's also an issue we have to keep in mind. Thank you very much Hi it's great to be here I'm Mohamed Karamuzian I work with the WHO Collaboration Center for HIV Surveillance in the Middle East in North African context I also work with the BC Center for HIV AIDS in British Columbia, Canada I think I would it's sad to hear your stories I think Iran's story is compared to those is more of a success story in how you could keep harm reduction running in a conservative faith-based government and I don't want to call it an Islamic setting because like it would be over-generalizing but I would leave it to conservative so I think just a little bit of a quick background on how everything started in Iran I think harm reduction around started around addressing the issue of epidemics of HIV in prisons across the country and then after that it was built around reducing harm among people who use who inject drugs so still because back in the days 96% of the population who were living with HIV or getting HIV was through injection drug use but the modes of transmission are changing like every other place around the world so they started with addressing harm reduction inside prisons and then taking it to scaling it up to address the issue among people who inject drugs across the country but harm reduction speaking of harm reduction services for people who inject drugs it's around 15 years old and speaking of other key populations like sex workers it's less than 10 years old but I think we were supposed to talk about some of the challenges speaking of I think it's really important to put your success in context in the case of Iran we were talking about a conservative that has gone through a revolution 30 some years ago has been under constant economic sanctions so providing funding for such services is always a challenge it remains to be a challenge and it has always been a challenge so I think I would give them the credit for taking the initiative and being an example for the region but I think I could think of we can discuss about we have had similar issues both of the examples you talked about we can talk about it through the discussion but I think one of the ways that I could classify this as like a relatively working and functioning system when it comes to harm reduction where we have like a free needle exchange services we have all the harm reduction services inside prison settings both for men and women we have women only clinics centers for vulnerable women is about working with the public and the government like working next to them and trying to see that in a conservative setting the government might not be very willing to show the ugly face of the situation which is probably the case in all conservative settings so we have tried to be very diplomatic in how we release our data we publish data so and then we have tried to build collaborations with the ministries of health and with the NGOs so we designed the surveillance for ministries of health so we get to add what the research parties want to know into the surveillance system which might not be necessarily research oriented and then we go to them with topics that might be interesting for them and get them involved in research it's harder to publish but it's not I think we've made that clear for them that it's not for the sake of the publication so we've just recently been able to build a collaboration with the ministries of health and the social welfare organization who are in charge of running the harm election inside the country that we have a list of topics that might be interesting in order to improve the system you tell us you prioritize it for us which one do you want us to address first and then I think that's been a fairly functional system because it's it looks like it's working and then we get their feedback if they're interested in having their name on pieces there's no barrier to that if they're not interested there's no we're very flexible I think working with them has been the key making it clear for them that we're not going to use this against you and this is for the sake of the people and then on the other hand when you're in a conservative setting and again a face based setting addressing the concerns of the public is another key issue and I think the harm reduction by these includes including NGOs have been very successful in changing the lexicon around what harm reduction is for example when we wanted to start services for sex workers the word sex is like taboo in the conservative settings like especially Islamic settings this is like a don't say it type of thing so with sex workers I think especially NGOs and NGOs who work with the ministries of health and researchers they were successful in changing the lexicon and calling it vulnerable women which is an Islamic concept which means literally women who need help so now we're building on that aspect of Islam that says you need to help people who need help so I think working with the language and then so there are like over 40 centers who provide services for sex workers but they're called centers for vulnerable women and nobody like it doesn't flag anyone so I think speaking of challenges what I could say is that in Iran harm reduction is conducted through parallel bodies and these bodies are some of them are like related to the government some of them are related to NGOs but again I think the same thing would like a system to Hungary it's hard to be very independent in a conservative setting so like you have to be semi-independent if you want to function so like we really don't have a lot of we do have a few I would say very independent NGOs but they're really having a hard time with finding and securing funding so most of the NGO work is done through a collaboration and then the ministries of health especially try to support them through like a lot of empowerment programs but like I can speak to like something very recent is that a body like one part of this there are three parallel bodies involved in harm reduction one of them is enforcement law people who have the most power and like the most funding so like they don't necessarily collapse ministry of health is leading a more harm reduction based evidence based approach while they do not necessarily believe in that or they do not necessarily follow that I think that's been a very ongoing challenge but what we're trying to do is like to reach out to them ourselves like we go through a lot of meetings with them and try to address their concerns and hopefully keep this running I think like shutting down harm reduction is way worse than having a semi working relatively working one thank you wonderful thank you so much Muhammad and our next speaker is Ines from the Philippines if you could introduce yourself thank you hi I'm Ines from Nobox Nobox is an organization that we put together basically because people who are using drugs or involved with drugs are just not treated right it's as simple as that and a lot of it comes from the misinformation that has led also to associate people sorry to associate people involved with drugs automatically with crime the war on drugs is not new actually it's been around for a long time and in fact our 2002 law came about to overhaul the 1972 law because they thought it wasn't harsh enough so it's always been there except a lot of the people who were affected were those in the lower income communities that people don't really get to hear about so because people don't talk about it this is what the current administration had capitalized on on the misinformation and which has led to a lot of actions that has been taken against people who use drugs so the law has been there drug use is considered a crime so is possession and in fact possession when with your two other people can lead to life in prison for example and that has kept people away from seeking help and services and on top of that now where they have tried to push because they're capitalizing on this fear and just feeding into it and just getting people to be scared of people drug use this is supplemented by more and more laws, executive orders have been put into place for example you have the police circular that has led to the police going to homes in lower income communities and forcing people to surrender which they have claim is considered a success and then so there have been board regulations issued by the policy agency for example there's supposed to be guidelines on how to handle people who have quote-unquote volunteered or surrendered but these regulations are really a lot of the things that they've started to put into place are things that try to elicit more information so it's more like intelligent stuff to elicit information for example if you surrender you wave your rights and you say basically that you agree to subject yourself to drug testing need to go to rehabilitation and you surrender your phone you have to give the names and if you have photos of people who you have been associating with regards to drug use and then now they're pushing to support the administration's campaign drug testing has always been in the law but now they're reviving it so now there's drug testing they're going to resume drug testing in schools and in some they're saying they're going to drug test all students for example it's a random drug testing you have in the workplace where they have for example in a city they did drug testing for all the employees so it's so it's just kind of it's not I was thinking when you said the laws restricting us it's not so much like directly restricting us for example but it's just that creating the environment that makes it a little bit more difficult and we feel sometimes it's like an attack on all sides because they're doing it in different aspects so it's different it's difficult to address all these different things um um what else sorry I think um oh okay so I guess at the same time because I was mentioning we hear about all the terrible things that are happening but I think one of the things that is kind of missing and we want to to share is that the situation now has actually created this space where um we created a space we're able to come in and introduce an alternative source because people now the killings have become closer to home for a lot of people and they're saying no this is not the way to go but what do we do so there is now space for providing the if not this what then so in fact we have communities local bar and guys who have our help to develop responses in their communities that won't mean killing but in providing the kinds of services and in a more engaging and humane manner um the difficulty the only one of the challenges we see there is that people who have surrendered are now kind of targeted and identified so that's a difficult thing that we kind of have to strategize strategize about in doing in developing responses in the community meaning where before maybe it was the police they knew who their their kind of enemy was now they don't know who it's going to be because now people like some of them were sharing people who have not surrendered now kind of look at them as people who are sharing information so now they don't know so that's the thing and there are also people who have been forced to report show up for the supposed the programs of barangays but who end up getting killed anyway because now they are identified so these are the things that we need to to work with but at the same time when I was talking about opportunities we have also learned for example when we speak of the government it's not just one person there are actually people in government who are seeking to learn more and to know more about better responses so I think as mentioned before it's not just about saying you know you're doing what's wrong but it's also providing what we can do and what's possible so we also try to engage with people in government agencies with the policy agency we are also doing work with Department of Health for example in introducing and coming up with papers with regards to harm reduction also I think one of the things also that we realize it's about developing communications and when you say communication it's understanding I think this was brought up during the plenary earlier it's also understanding where the people are coming from when they are supporting the current administration's responses it's coming from a need and to tell them simply that they're wrong it's not going to answer their need so we need to understand that so we're also creating the space for the people who may not necessarily be sharing our views to see where they're coming from and to also reinforce what positive and the things that they are doing yeah okay alright thank you thank you wonderful thank you Ines for being in a very restrictive environment but heartening to hear that we're seeing the opportunities Mikal, welcome and please introduce yourself thank you I'm Mikhail Goluchenko from Russia working for Canadian HIV it's legal network but providing technical assistance for Russia and Russian speaking countries this talk is about Russia as many of you heard Russia is sort of first country to introduce this foreign agents law which is not true the first Ethiopia beat us big time they were first and then Russia but Russia is sort of on the tip of everybody's tongue because it went to news and I'm not going to lower it down it's really bad right I want to emphasize put emphasis on three points point number one from where it started and where we are now it started all from the election watchdog back in 2012 everybody including human right defenders and human right lawyers I remember used to say that oh it's only about elections and that's understandable because elections watchdogs they are human right defenders but in a way they are part of political opposition and therefore when the government is trying to strike back to get off the hook with foreign money to infuse the democracy in our countries that's probably right they were wrong big time because when the government starts chewing up somebody next to you very soon it will start chewing up you that's exactly what happened four years later we've got 150 NGOs who went into the foreign agents roster most of them are human right defenders and not only the mainstream human right defenders but such human right defenders as those who protect the environment those who protect wildlife and now from the year 2016 by now we have eight harm reduction service providers people working for MSM communities protecting them from HIV three of which entered the foreign agent roster voluntarily after receiving the offer by the minister of justice basically it was a threat that if you don't do it voluntarily we'll get you there anyway and you are going to get huge fine so now we have eight out of 150 those which work for harm reduction but it's not that extremely hard to be on this roster and continue working the main part of hardship behind the foreign agent law is that getting funding from Russian sources is almost impossible although there is no clear restrictions except one law another law provides opportunity for the foreign agents to apply for foreign funding but I think it's it was very important part of the decision to start going after HIV service providers to get them into the roster because of the demand for government money started growing up after foreign donors decided to withdraw from Russia because Russia is the high income country which is true money is there money is never been available for public money is there for one percent of the society less than one percent those who are quite naive for foreign donors to treat the country keep a blind eye I think that okay it's high income country and therefore we are withdrawing that was the huge huge very important one mortal blow of foreign investors foreign donors to the whole civil society of Russia is in Europe and Central Asia and now as we see other countries it's a very important mistake and we have to keep it in mind it's a lesson to learn by foreign donors not to do this and I remember the excuse was we don't want to put people at risk because now because of foreign funding they are becoming foreign agents and they are at risk we don't want to expose them therefore we are withdrawing nobody asked people right nobody asked well do you want to get money do you want to continue working regardless we want to withdraw because it's sort of becoming dangerous without even thinking that those who work for harm reduction those who work for human rights they do this not because of money they'll continue working and defend their rights just because it's their life position right so money there money with not there they still continue working without money without foreign support without foreign support not only financial but other support right they would be just even more dangerous right so that's a very important I think lesson to learn then what do we do next I'm sure that the situation is going to become worse because now we have war rhetoric coming into this whole implementation of the foreign agent law because now we have the war with Ukraine and if you if you see the judgment and the decisions of the ministry of justice against foreign agents the war rhetoric is there like some very key words which were only applicable to the war affairs now they are there so the idea is that these people are foreign agents and they are working against the Russian public by promoting something which is very bad it's a threat such as needle and syringe such as drug use and so on therefore we treat them appropriately and call them foreign agents and cut them down and so forth so it will be worse with the pace of time because this war is not going to end tomorrow and the waves from Russia are going to spread all over eastern Europe and other countries in Europe which are not that strong in their democratic systems Hungary is first but it's not going to be lost we actually see what is going on in the U.S. the strongest democracy and yet it just flipped right so it's going to be the same my point is that if we want to stop something we have to stop it at its source and sources Russia so if we are to work on issue globally we have to continue working in those old countries and then the next very short but important point is that in the very beginning I guess of harm reduction HIV services all these activities there was always an idea that we have to manage this large project important project but we have to manage them trying to make the system similar to how the business entities operate indicators different outcomes and so on it worked for some time but the most important set of indicators were always about cooperation with the government okay how many times you attended this meeting how many of your people went there how many bridges we built in order to start cooperating between key populations and the government and this created on the one hand this wide perception that as soon as the government is attacking NGOs and NGOs knew that that means these NGOs are also not going to get the foreign funding because they wouldn't be able to fulfill this very indicators very important because how would they cooperate right this one thing and so that sort of domesticated them when they talk to the government and prevented them to strike back one and it's the whole culture in such country as Russia that NGOs many NGOs many NGO leaders didn't want to act and fight back as soon as they started hearing about their fears being in the foreign agent law they said okay okay that's probably they are bad but we're not going to be affected and it's still like this people continue talking only four out of eight decided to strike back and they were successful in a way one is still doing absolutely nothing got one fine after another huge fine already and instead of fighting back in the court he is asking for money right it's stand him but I know what is behind this attitude I think it's very wrong and then the very last what to do next in order to break this whole attitude and actually environment which was created unexpectedly and absolutely unintentionally right I think we all have to think about very flexible ways to continue this work regardless the worsening environment possible ways could be one stop funding NGOs start funding people and activities and there are tons of way because we are having video record I don't want to say that but there are many many ways how we can do this forget about this NGOs it's not necessary that you have to give money to NGOs okay there are many ways and then most important I think is that NGOs what is NGO it's nothing it's just it's just sound people right people are behind NGOs how many NGOs are broken now but we still have people who used to be activists they remain they remain working without money they are still there let's continue supporting them rather than thinking about the NGOs so the very final point is everything is not that bad if we are thinking with appropriate flexibility thank you so much Mikhail and next we are on to my dear friend from Thailand and I'll just do a time check it's 140 we have two or three more speakers and it would be great to have a five minute thing so thank you Karin I think the situation in Thailand it seems like in Russia in China and many countries that is European already but I would like to focus on the overall environment working for CSO in Thailand because you know civil society organization sorry a senior human rights he said that the situation in Thailand now it looks like Thailand retreat more than 85 years ago before the change of rule from absolute monarchy to democracy something like that so that you know that is very serious on the monarchy so I cannot say it anymore because maybe I can go home so since the national council for peace and order it's the name of NCPO they take the two power in May 2014 and then they set up the national legislative assembly or NLA the NLA take a role as the House of Representatives and the Senate in two years ago they passed the law about 179 so many law and changed many things in Thailand also and also in the interim interim constitution section 44 this is very famous in Thailand because the prime minister take the power of section 44 it means everything absolutely like that so the section 44 provides a limited power for the leader of the NCPO and I think the big issue that is when the prime minister use the section 44 it means the big change is coming just like the freedom and the expression in Thailand is also limited the NCPO has banned political gathering of more than five persons since the court at least 80 persons have been arrested and sent to the military court for organizing or taking part in peaceful public gathering and also you know people has been arrested and charged with sentencing for criticizing military rule and violation the military government ban on public assembly just like the people he is a factory worker he was arrested and charged with sending and computer crime for sharing facebook infographic to share the corruption by the leader of the NCPO so that is happen in Thailand and the military unit in Bangkok and other province forced to cancellation of more than 60 political even seminar and also academy panel on political and human rights issue so that mean people who have tried to set up the seminar or panel on political issue cannot do in Thailand so like you know the criticizing the monarchy is serious criminal offense in Thailand now and I think for the human rights defender now we have a friend she is a lawyer human rights lawyer and she was arrested by the NCPO the military because she help she is the legal assistant with the student who try to make a protest on the street she she arrest and then take her to the military court so that it mean the lawyer is not safe also it not only people and for harm reduction I think my friend from Thailand Khun Noi, Khun Kuki maybe can share for the the ONCB office of control board they announced the harm reduction policy in February this year the policy that implement in 37 province and the duration of implement is February this year to September 2019 but the policy look like good but for implementation limited for practice just as when they talk about the NAROC zone service but the question is who will be pay for the NAROC zone and who because the NAROC zone is the medicine it should be by the medical so and the other is with I think important is Thailand on the process to be make a draft of drug court more than two years ago and now the draft of drug court is under the judicial to consider and I think and hope that it will be coming in soon I have to apologize to every speaker that we don't have time and I have to cut people off thank you Peter


Hi, I'm Mary with the A.B. and I'm here today talking to Gerard Chipporra from New York City, grew up in Stanton Island, and we want to tell the story of his brother, John. His brother was a Marine and a New York City firefighter as well as a New York City police officer. And it's very important that we tell his story and we honor him and those like him who have given their lives for our country.  What led to that? What led to him joining? Well, it's funny, John started out always looking at like John Wayne character in his world as a young man. So he was a voice out to start. So that's I think what started his life of service. Rising to the rank of Eagle. And then he said, you know, what better thing than to be John Wayne and join the Marine Corps, you know, and define Leathernets and all those stories. So he thought, what a great way to continue his service. So in 1980, I was just going to high school, he joined the Marine Corps. Well, one of his first duty stations was in Beirut, and he was there in October of 1983. Can you tell me a little bit about that? It was an early morning and he was on the shift, so radio operators didn't get to sleep in at all. So they were, he was on his way to his post when the truck bomb exploded. So he was out of the barracks. Otherwise he would have been in the barracks and possibly would have perished. The person he stopped to talk to on the way to his post continued to the barracks and passed away. And John continued on to his post and did his job. And for a long time after that, it took me a long time to get to this, but he always thought that if he talked to that guy for one more minute, maybe he would have changed his future. And it always, I think it always had a, it always sat tough with John, but at the same time it made him more personal to people because if he was going to have a conversation with you, he took the time to spend with you and understand who you were. How do you think being a part of that experience affected your brother? Oh, it affected his world tremendously. I think, like I said, his contact with people changed, his contact with the world changed. He realized that we're only here for a short period of time. So make every moment count because you never know when the ultimate end is going to come. So live life as if it's super precious, which we know it is, but sometimes we get lost there. We don't realize how precious it is and we don't take the moment to spend with somebody or do something nice or kind. So John, his world changed.  He comes back and he decides that he's going to continue by becoming a New York City police officer. Can you tell me a little bit about that? He was in the neighborhood policing unit, so they would go and introduce themselves to the local people and what problems you have on this block. So he single-handedly cleared all the drug dealers off of one block because it was affecting the neighborhood. So adversely, and when the police department realized that, they immediately put him in the narcotics unit and he became a detective. Again, what's he doing? He's back in his old neighborhood trying to make people's lives better. Once he was through with the narcotics, he became a regular city detective wearing a suit and all those things. And he did that for 12 years until one day he decided, I guess, that the police department was too dangerous. And he told me, it's too dangerous for me.  So I was a firefighter ahead of him and he must have seen the impact I was able to do and have on people's lives. So he decided to change his career path after 12 years with NYPD and become a firefighter.  Yes, yes. And I'll tell you, my father was also a firefighter. So we had a history in the New York City Fire Department. So it made an easy choice for him once I had done it. So September 11, 2001, your brother's on duty. Tell me about that day. It took about three hours for me to realize that he wasn't home and he was working. The realization came that now the towers are collapsed and my heart sunk because I knew a lot of my fellow firefighters and police officers and thousands of civilians were killed. I just, you have that feeling of being a firefighter. So as the enormity of the disaster unfolds and we start to realize the original list had thousands of firefighters on it, hundreds of police officers. One of my senior men had come in and he had said, your brother was in the latter 105 for the day and they haven't heard from them. And this is about three in the morning.   He goes, we've been there all day. There's nothing, there's no one to find, you know. And it was tremendous gut wrenching feeling for me. So I headed home and my sister had escaped. She was home. My wife was in midtown Manhattan. She had come home. John's fiance Gina, she got out of Manhattan. And so we all kind of made our way to my home and my sister Eileen and my sister Susan had come the next day. So we were all here to try to make heads or tails. I figured out and it took until the spring of 2002 where we had finally made a recovery. John was the only recovery from his whole company working that day. So it was very traumatic for the other families. Again, we're thinking about them that not everybody came home. You know, only John did. When he passed, it was a very challenging time because I knew I was lost as a person, as a firefighter. And coincidentally, the photo of the three firefighters raising the flag in much like the Iwo Jima flag. I knew all three of those people. Two of them I put in my best friend category. So I heard the story before it hit the papers and it was pivotal for me because I knew that they were doing it because they knew John. They were lifelong friends and that flag went up for John. And I'm thinking, wow, that's amazing. So that kind of that day cinched it for me that I had a purpose to continue on serving people. And with John's memory of service in there, if you say somebody's name over again and you say it every day, then they never really die.