Okay folks can somebody just shut the door please to keep the heat in we may have to open it if it gets too hot in here all right so let me guess what you're all here for you want to hear about the appointment of the second constable oh my okay so everybody did everybody sign in and there was a hand out at the door about the public forum that the select board is going to hold next Monday night that will be an opportunity for people to have a better opportunity to talk about their concerns or hopefully ideas so really tonight this is all the statement that we have is what you see on this paper and I understand yeah I'm going to read it aloud but I understand that the space upstairs has been reserved for your use later this evening to talk about the issues so let me just read this in case everybody didn't get a copy this is dated today there's a public forum regarding number 10 pond there's been a lot of recent discussion concerning number 10 pond the callous select board and other town officials appreciates the public's concerns and would like to facilitate a meaningful public dialogue to that end a public forum regarding number 10 pond will be held on July 31st 7 p.m. Calis Town Hall the select board invites community members to attend this forum to participate in a constructive conversation given the complexities of this issue the select board feels that it would be inappropriate to discuss it tonight select board meeting at the select board meeting tonight as the agenda is already full and the regular business of the town needs to be attended to we appreciate members of the public respecting the time limited the limited time the select board has regularly scheduled meeting in the interim concerns regarding the public access to number 10 pond should be addressed to the women's relief corps directly so I will give it 10 minutes and a couple give couple of people an opportunity to speak briefly be remember there's a lot of people here yeah if you could set a timer Sharon that'd be great all right who would like to speak first oh it's just public comments so Cynthia I try over over again to reach Peg Bowen who is the treasure and seems to be the one sort of calling the shots with the women's relief corps I was told by Peg that there are 30 when I ran into her at the at the mirror Lake and I said had I was a guest of Robert Mitchell to park on his land and because Tammy was giving me a lot of harassment so I I saw her pulling out that same day and I told her I had the right to go to Rob Mitchell's land and she said get it in writing so since then I've been harassed many many times many many people have been harassed I was harassed to the point of Tammy putting out her foot to trip me and down at the beach and and also saying something I think this is the direct quote I'd like to grind your face into a rock then she said no I'd like to smash her face into the rock this is after she put out her foot to me I've witnesses but what I really want to say is that you can't get through to the only person I know oh there are three active members that I know Kathy silk which is the president Peg Bowen the treasure and Dorothy Naylor I called did call Dorothy now she returned my call but she doesn't feel that she has to give me any information about the number of members or anything had herself that day as I stopped her in the car said 30 members there are 30 members in the women's relief core and she said 20 are active so I don't know where they are and so upstairs if you don't have time now I did put a post on front porch floor yeah I saw your post I have many many questions and we're going to add to those questions tonight if they wanted there's any more questions that people have and I would say we're starting friends of mirror lake you know that would be the name of at least the people I have a million posted notes from people on the beach who have been harassed okay so I would suggest that if you feel threatened or if there's anything like that you contacted them on state police it doesn't help unless she gets me they're not going to do anything bad okay all right thank you Cynthia we got how many minutes left seven and four seconds okay so another millie yeah I just I just wanted to say I remember when the camp was built up there when that camp was built across from the beach and I remember those people saying I was a child but saying don't worry this will always be available to the public it has been all these years and it will always be available and I am just wondering if we're not I don't think we're going to be able to deal with the women's relief corps unless we can find more members at this point but I'm I'm just kind of wondering since it's been used for years and years and years I learned to swim that was 67 68 years ago when I learned to swim there and when you start taking things away from people if they've had especially situations that are that bring pleasure and family outings you're going to start having a lot more problems in the town than if it if it is open and I am just wondering if maybe well maybe part of this group can do that can look back at you know all the various deeds and so on but what I am gathering is you think the beach is owned by the we don't have come we don't have the confirmation of that as yet and I'm not prepared to speak to that tonight yeah okay is it is it owned by the town do we have confirmation that it is not we don't have confirmation on an ownership as of yet yeah who might mark no Tom I know it was something the car today the town has considered it a fourth-class road and maintained it as such yes there's a process there's a process for creation of a town road and I forget what the right terminology is if it's in depth not indemnification what's correct well there are a number of processes available under statute but at this point time this course vision is that it is a town road has been a town road since its creation if it is considered a fourth-class town road then there must be a certain amount of right away there is the road where you know I live over off to do the work right foot right away okay that leads right 15 foot right away okay then what is the problem here with these land owners I don't care there there's a lot of legal nuance and we don't have time actually yeah time constraint but if I may I think would be really got all these people here tonight which is fabulous committee members if you all would take a little more time and spend less time with us a lot of your questions tonight but get together and kind of formulate ideas in terms of next step what you like to see in the future how you would approach going forward and figure out a number of avenues so you don't lock yourself into something that might dead-end that would be my strong I mean that you know we could use your help in coming up with suggestions ideas and being respectful you know not to have any I don't know how many people go down there but the women's relief corps periodically things are vandalized and that's not okay whether you agree with what is going on or you don't vandalism is not something that is acceptable so I'll just put that out there because they had an incident recently where that happened and that's not acceptable in any case so let's work towards an amicable respectful thoughtful solution to what appears to be a townwide problem oh I'm sorry Hi, I'm Amy Wall, I might carry out to you about the situation of a veteran memorial yep there's my understanding that there if it's there there has to be a right like well I'm just yeah that's really curious what the steps for the next meeting not today well you know this is a huge issue it encompasses more things than the swimming access and it comes as the veterans monument so it's it's really a pretty big complex entwined issue so it's not a said there's not a simple answer not a simple solution so we would really appreciate your help and it's amazing that so many people have turned out so that's a good sign so I suggest Millie can you let Millie somebody else has their hand up 90 seconds left I think it is pretty simple actually but I'd like to frame this historically you go back to 1946 wait a minute could you just say your magazine could you please wait a minute could you please okay thank you if you go back to the 1926 in New York where you will see that Marion's heartbeat you spent a better part of that summer here wrote a short story based around the swimming access at number 10 pond and the attempt at infringing the public's right to access back in 1946 now if the breadth of this meeting size of this meeting you're speaking of indicates that much public interest I think that the that the town should hire a lawyer to act for the public interest and not for the private interest of California dreaming women have come here to privatize public property in North Calis and other hyper gentrification measures the public needs to have a right to what should be and has for a long time been public access issues and you did somebody has mentioned apparently the monument to the civil war dead all which has been privatized so I think there has to be a rollback and it not done intelligently I will support rolling back the historical centers in this count in this where where that are protected that kind I mean I've always supported that but if the right for kids to swim in an obvious public place has taken away and people can't honor their war dead and stuff like that something has to change in a big way right so as we go upstairs all of us go upstairs and start planning how we're going to deal with this I am hearing the news is saying that it would be very helpful to the select board for us to do some talking and planning and I think that's just what we should do there are a lot of people here let's do it wait a minute just a minute Rob I'd just like to say a few short things about the stewardship of public assets to the town that are controlled by private boards there's a lot of them in this town and it's kind of a trend where there's disagreement on how these individual boards are doing it I guess is a fair way to put it and there needs to be some way to conjoin them in a good way where everyone's public good is in mind and it's it's easy to be on the outside one of these boards and see how it looks but there's no laws there's no rules and regulations for them like the select board is bound to there's you know no cookie-cutter way to do it so the best way to help is to support and to become involved so I guess that's all I gotta say thanks Rob thank you all right thank you folks thank you my name is Tim Walberg and isn't there a long remark that if you utilize a peaceful land for 15 years and nobody takes it away from you you claim it so you have to go to court you have to go to court and assert your right and a judge would have to do to Kate okay and grant that that those rights great place tonight right there for everybody leads then I framed a lot of questions on court form came out today so we're gonna look for if there's any more questions beyond that but we want answers to those questions so I if you have to go are we ready to move on to the next agenda items I did a sponge on on the beach said like I'm announcing friends of Mirror Lake because I swim daily there and I've been going there for 20 years so I sort of have my finger on the pulse of what's going on and I've been hearing stories for years and I never get an answer from from what might be the active only active members about anything like Peg Bowen is the treasurer, Kathy Silk is the president and Dorothy Naylor is the secretary. All the other Relief Corps members that are once Relief Corps members they still pay their dues but I don't think they're going to need it and it's very hard I've been calling Peg Bowen for a week and she never returns my phone call so she is the one that I always hear the name of Peg Bowen, Peg Bowen, Peg Bowen. Okay so I was tired of being run off the beach by Tammy Lino and and she's she's she's really getting out of control and I did post something yesterday but it ended up being on the forum today and and I would just like to begin by the questions that I think should be framed beyond private property because everything's about private property right now and that legitimizes kicking everybody out. It is the Women's Relief Corps private property and the water is is public to everyone in Vermont if you can get on the lake so there's the boat launch which will be public but you have to be a fisherman or have a boat I don't even know if kayaks would be allowed if are they but the fisherman's license is what supports that launch that launch area I understand was given to to the public for that use by the public by the Women's Relief Corps that's my understanding then there's an interior part of the the memorial area that in the 1930s was given as a raffle believe it or not to encourage people to come swim and have a little camp there camp there I was told that by one of the one of the few people that owned one of those properties he hasn't developed it he's given me the right to park on it but he said they've had that in their family all these years there's another family that has another little cottage that's made there and they're very upset about some property issues there or their access to the beach then the up then there's the cottage that is Tammy Lino's Tammy has decided that this is private property even though her real right is the right of the water pipes to go to her cottage so she has no rights either and recently she was she got permission she says from Peg Bowen in a week ago Saturday she posted signs saying beach closed private party both in the Boulder parking lot now and on the beach and she also blocked it with the canoe and anyways and and she's targeting me because I have permission to go through the right of way which has been used for decades many many decades by the people who own property so she's served me with no trespassing for using this right of way which I permission to do and said her land is on that which it may be but anyways I said where is the right way she said what through the pine tree I said okay let's cut down the pine tree if we have to so not that I would want to but there she's not giving me any real answers and she's being very rude so I got sick of the run around you know I know the town is really really trying to understand all the legalities like talk to the road commissioner I came to the conclusion after all the different people I've spoken to and my experiences on the beach is let's frame this a different way because it's not all about private property what it is is about the intention in the deed which I actually have here of this hall in the first place which was really it was dedicated to Stowe post 29 and eventually became more Memorial Hall and the Stowe family in this town lost three sons to the Civil War one of them William Stowe left I've heard different accounts 70 to 100 letters that that are very interesting and there's a three-volume book on that with the chronology of the Civil War and William Stowe's letters and the cemetery is on my road Jack Hill so I've gone to the cemetery and what struck me and I think why the Stowe post was sort of the original Memorial Hall is that that family lost the three sons but when you go to the graveyard there are four little tiny unmarked graves so they must have been I'm guessing were children that died at birth before birth then there was a two-month-old boy son who died then there were the three brothers who fought in the of the war one died at 17 another I don't remember and the other one was William Stowe 24 I and then there were two other graves they had no dates on them but they were regular graves and then there were another two of the the husband and wife and Emily and Alonzo thank his name is so anyways there's a history around this so and a lot of men died in that war during the Civil War and other wars Vietnam especially too but that was a real hardship for this town and if you read the history it was really something and really sad and so I just want to read these questions because I think it'll help us frame something beyond private property and I really do urge everybody to read my post that was in tonight's front porch forum if there anyone isn't we can figure out a way to get it to you on the forum but I it's more than about private property so I wish I don't know I I wouldn't mind if that were read but I didn't my printer wasn't working so I couldn't bring it with me to read so it has a little bit about the hall and stuff so these are my questions that I frame so what is the women's relief corps mission how many members are in the local women's relief corps how many members are active actively coming to meetings how many voted to close down public swimming is there is this an organization of three thirty or three because Peg Bowen told me thirty members I only know of three that that could be contacted but Peg does not return my calls how the Memorial Hall becomes so decrepit and I have the report here that was written by Peg Bowen in 2014 where she hired and an engineering company do wolf and wrote up a report about what's going on with the Memorial Hall and why really it's been condemned for public functions you know the fire codes weren't up but what just what really upset me was that and I I could read that or you guys can look at it but what really upset me was I realized and it's always to protect the call it's always protect the private property which is her role which is the women's relief role to to to you know protect the physical structure along with have honorary ceremonies charitable ceremonies you know in public ceremonies so and events and anyways I'll keep reading so so why were the windows sealed creating rot underneath the lower floor I guess that's what really worried me that who is responsible for that I mean who doesn't know in a web place if you seal it all up it's raw it's rods so at this point to fix that rotting and and and the whole structure of that hall you would have to lift it up and if you lift it up there's there's not a full basement underneath all of it it's just a partial basement so the really scary part or the really difficult part would be lifting it up and dealing with it from underneath that crawl space so maybe it means I'm speculating that you have to lift it up even higher so that men can work under it because there isn't a full basement so so can I just wait can I just finish my questions then let's open it all well I think it's important that people think about that if you're impatient I'm sorry but I spent a lot of issues I've spent these are the issues to frame these are you know I've spent a lot of time on this this isn't the first day of doing this I've been working on this a lot of times so I'd like to at least finish the questions and I won't elaborate then is the hall for sale who would be eligible to buy the hall charitable nonprofits armed forces any wealthy buyer is the town of callus considering any possibilities eminent domain should our community make an effort to raise funds to rip to save the hall with the memorial itself stay here why is the site itself bereft of cultivated beauty like flowers is the town maintained class 4 gar road the property of the women's relief corps or the town of callus private property private property private meetings private minutes private parties private swimming private private everything is this attitude aligned with the original intention of the deed and I brought the deeds with me and then there's just a couple more questions where the checks and balances and why isn't an organization who no longer holds ceremonies to honor the veterans or other charitable events and wants to close down all public swimming access on the beach not paying taxes so I'll just end with I have a report the Peg Rowan wrote if anyone wants to look at it of all the problems with that building they're real and how did it get like that and if it peg bones the only one I ever hear hear about then you know I I think Peg Rowan is the one to ask but I think that she answers any calls down stairs maybe want to talk up here downstairs there were two people sitting I saw them there who have been members of this relief corps the parents have been members I know some some other people who've been members maybe not active members but members and I you know I've been in around this town for seven over 70 years and I remember a lot of what went on and I know I can find some of those people Annie Christopher is a member are you a member yes your member and so I think that it's very real to think that we can find those people but I also heard very clearly downstairs in the select board meeting that it hasn't been determined who owns that property and it has been determined that the road is a public class 4 road belongs to the town if it belongs to the town and there's a right-of-way of 25 feet what is the problem there is no so that we heard what do we want to do is a group how do we want to form and put the pressure on I'm willing to find members I'm willing to do that to separate issues so I feel like there's the public swimming access and then there's the whole issue of the property and to me like I personally I would love to see more and more community resource but I am more interested in my consumption of that beach every day so that's where like I'm not saying that not both don't need to discuss but I feel like I just want to say I feel like the town isn't doing good because I do feel like especially the number here that their lawyers probably trying to figure out yes right and I feel like it is a public road but I also know that there's legal precedent in the state of law the president around public easements to get to recreational water sources so if it wasn't for like if I don't worry about it before I'm pretty sure we could get the public I don't think they have lawyer oh I heard from a person of the road said that they were being advised not to get involved at this point but all of the comment and upset around it I think that we're thinking I mean first according to Vermont law a private landowner cannot you cannot sue someone for preparation because you know you cannot buy ski in Vermont you can swim you can't get sued so that's just ridiculous if a community if the community uses an access for water for swinging or for some other use for substantial number of years the community has a right to use this this has been proven in Superior Court it was Drake versus Lufing in 1979 the court concluded that the public is entitled to continue use this to me this is cut and dry it's just all we got to do is get a lawyer I mean it's already from 18 1888 all we need is one lawyer taking the court be done with this leave everything as it is don't turn it into like her this pun with a damn barrel of trash like it's trash don't do all these things just leave it the way it is it's being investigated it's being investigated to me it's just cut and dry just why sometimes it isn't because it was a little bit different it's a little different than this this situation but I did I did send out that I heard about that and I got an email about that so I sent that out to some people and it and they're you know like Stephanie Kaplan is one so she's looking into that I mean the original deed of the land that says it right here in 1885 William Chase deeded the land for public use I mean that's right there I mean so that land was needed for public use it also specifically let me get that you know I should pass the deal I think the women's relief for being led by certain people have decided they decided to privatize it and that was not I mean I grew up in this town we always could go there and go swimming we could always welcome there and then the new people sort of took over but the old guard was very clear about what that whole property was about yeah yeah I sent her the last article she needs to be concerned about this and she needs to be aware what's going on within her organization I haven't received an answer yet but what's there with the dress if you go to their website there's information about becoming a member and what it says is that any woman over the age of 13 of good moral character and what it says is that you apply to be a member to the national board they approve or don't approve your membership and then they assign you to your local chapter and so there's a $15 fee and then there's an additional $15 application so once I had was what a whole bunch of Tony up the 30 box and become members with that then automatically get us invited to their next week what they do with the local let me tell you what goes on now I remember probably 40 years ago it all changed they the new guard started coming in and they would get together and have these meetings and decide that person wasn't worthy or this one and they didn't want them for one reason or another they became very selective and I think it's probably going on I know it is because I remember probably eight years ago Priscilla Priscilla batton was a good friend of mine and she was part of the board and Annie and Annie Christopher and I talked about joining and Priscilla got involved in the whole process and I don't think either one of us ever got in I know I didn't go the full route because I knew it wasn't going to get in they don't like them. Do they have bylaws in the Army? Yeah. I'd like to make a historical point. Okay, say your name. No. To me, recent district. I came here in 1971 and I left in 87, came back in 2006. Anyway, all through the 70s and I think well into the 80s that fishing, the access there up the road by that fairly large can that takes water out of the pond. Anyway, that was used by everyone. No questions asked but also there was a beach facing the memorial hall on the left that was used by a lot of people and people would go out on the point and swim from there. And that was all unchallenged. What I think has happened is that people with private property interests immediately at the pond side and further back in the woods where there were microscopic lots that were the one-tenth of an acre. Yeah. Okay. Those are the paddler landowners that we have there. That they used the association, the Memorial Association Moons for what it is, the grand argument for public I thought about. They used that as an instrument to assert their no extent in an aggressive way the private property rights and excluded people from using the beach by the memorial hall and then later excluded public from even visiting the War Memorial there. So, I mean, it was crazy and people shouldn't have allowed it. They got away with it quite a lot. Look, I'm talking about the 70s into the mid-80s. That's all very interesting, but more recently, Peg and her family purchased a lot of property around there. I think either on behalf of or for their own purposes. There was a proposal not that long ago to build a parking lot on the property. They ran into a storm largest. She did other permanent problems. But they were holding regular events. Weekly wedding was also long. The reason I asked about the charter and bylaw when we registered with the Secretary of State is that it's generating income. And they have to report that. They have to, there's just money being brought in. So, if there's work maintenance that needs to be done on the property, it's probably spelled out in the charter. I mean, how many of your voting members in the local charter surely is identified? I think to be that nonprofit, you have to file your bylaws and identify who your offices are. Peg is apparently the Secretary. There's a chair, so there's a whole hierarchy that's established and been reported. So there were funds being brought in, and I think there was a conservative effort from outside looking in that there was a fair amount of money being made. And then buying up these little posted stamp lots was more about parking for that. There's something on this going on there, but it seems like it was all about that until the day came when that fire track, somebody said that this was a dangerous place to be. I don't even know if there's another means of egress on the second floor. It's certainly not accessible. They're probably not accessible in the day-to-day, so there's a lot of federal, state law and regulations I'm sure that come into play here. So I think the question is for public, and getting back to that, the historical information is really interesting, but what is the real impact why are people here, and that has lost the right to use that? I just wanted to say something quickly. How do you get around that with unwilling people? Well, I think in order to get around and get inside the organization with unwilling people, potentially you're unwilling to select or because this is difficult. It's costly by our attorney. It's very expensive. Challenging a law-standing organization may be also unwilling, particularly if it's out of state. That's very arresting. They may not want to be involved in that either, and something like that may have a lot of legal protection, even against permanent domain, may not be able to acquire those type of prescriptive rights on that kind of entity, I don't think it's complicated as a private individual, but I can question whether you can against that sort of organization, because if it's public through their bylaws, then public hasn't had access if they choose to take that away, they may have some protections. Those illegal questions are going to cost you a lot of money. Do I say no around the back door? Let me hear from this gentleman over here, please. Yes, yes. I've raised my hand three times. I just want to say I'm Richard Lerau. We're kind of new to this area, but I've learned how to swim there. And my uncle owned a house on the other end of the boat access, and we grew up there every summer. And I find this kind of disturbing that somebody single-handedly or through a small group of people who close it off every day. To make things a lot easier, people haven't seen this yet. Just go online, type in the Vermont Water Rights. UVM did a great article and explains everything that everybody's talking about right now in terms of what's legal, who can go there, and what the rights are, the property rights. Just so people know the easement of any property on that lake is defined by the low water mark and anything that's underwater is available to us. Obviously, if we can't get to that, there's a problem. Now, a couple of people mentioned fishermen and people that are on boats. Well, I've known as a fisherman my whole life that I can walk down the river anywhere. I can walk down a river into a lake and walk all over the place. But aside from that, the people that live next to my uncle and in the surrounding area, they never had a problem with people using that beach. They said, if you need to go to NelsonCon, you can go across my property. You know, that's the way that it was. I just think that it's disturbing, again, that everybody's having to have meetings to talk about something like this. I should have had the woman who owns that property now come to this meeting. Which property are you talking about? It's on the other end of the lake. So if you're at the loading, I keep saying loading dock. Can we do it boat launch? Boat launch. They own the property on the other... Fondants. Yes. The Fondants and Mary and these guys own the property too. Which houses? Well, I can't remember the name of the road, but there are three houses on that little driveway. And my uncle on the house is the very end of that driveway. And so I think that, again, I think it would help if people just checked out the water rights, because they talk about all of that stuff. And if the building's an old building, a historical building, there are grants that would take care of whatever's wrong in that building. That's beside the point. I just have to say, I mean, I'm not trying to take over. It's just I've been studying this a lot and talking to people and finding out things. And you cannot talk about one without the other, because the hall owns basically the shoreline. They don't own the water, the low water... I don't know if it's the low or the high water. I always thought it was the high water mark that we could get into the boat launch and walk along. No, I don't know. But it's the low water mark. Yeah, because the water level changes throughout the year. You see, that's not it. It's like, I mean, I'll get a raft and I'll just go in at the boat launch if I have to. But the problem is it's a sweet beach for kids. I took my daughter there. Everybody has a story about Memorial Hall or that or a beach. There used to be those beaches around the Memorial Hall, which were easy to access. And my understanding is under Peg Bowen's leadership, she put the rocks in so it's difficult. There's no beaches in the front of the hall or on the side of the hall.  It was one person, but it took us all summer to get rid of them. And then... So that gave the place a bad reputation, but it was one person. And right now I'm seeing one person policing the beach. Now, the... I can't even say the Women's Relief Corps because the only one I absolutely know for sure once this beach shutdown is Peg Bowen and she has the rocks right there poised to do it. Maybe this week. But what I'm asking and why I have these questions framed like this is that I want to shine a light on who is the Women's Relief Corps. How many voted to do this? And that's for the starting place because if it's all about private and Women's Relief Corps and Women's Relief Corps and everything's private, then you don't get any more than private property. You don't get past private property. This is shining a light on what's going on within the Women's Relief Corps. And my understanding is that... And I have spoken to other Women's Relief Corps members. Well, I know, and I called her. She can't even get the minutes to April's meeting. And she's a member, but you know... Well, that stuff should be involved if it's in a group. That's what I'm saying. That's why if somebody thinks that I'm just like complicating it, it's not because I'm complicating it because I'm saying why... Who is the Women's Relief Corps? How many people are, you know, active? How many voted to do this? I want to know how many people voted just that one question. Tell me.  Actually, she was here with Donna. Yeah, talk to us. I stopped going when they told us to take people off the beach. I updated the Memorial Stone. I spearheaded the effort, you know, in the new part from World War II on. And then someone's name was left off until I made another stone next to that. I said, I'm done with this thing. It's nothing about the mission that the Women's Relief Corps is supposed to be doing. Supporting veterans, giving relief to people in need. It's nothing about that. It's always about the fall. So I got the system and I stopped going. When did you join? What was the meaning of the workplace issue with closing the school access? That... They... She just... Peggy just said, keep people off the land. This is my property. And I see people swimming there. I said, I'm a member of this organization. You can swim here. Aww. Thank you. 1990. 1990. Wow. Okay. She's been at it for a long time. 40 years. And now in the city. Now the beach. The beach falls to the law. Yeah. It's the same thing. It's all the same thing. Right. But I'm not really sure that it is the property. The beach area. That's what I just heard. It's a path road. It's kind of like a feeling we're still in an ancient gathering. You point about the road. The center of the road. But if there are borders about to go in, we need to get it stopped. That's right. We need to get it stopped. Mary, what... Mary, do you mind if I bring this over? Or would you rather not? Yeah. Okay. What? Behind the cottage. Yeah. Mary was going to say something. What about this idea? As a group, we say to the town, you have an organization here that's a certain authority that it definitely has. It doesn't have funds to maintain. They can't even have their own meeting place anymore because it's rotten in the core. And it's a fire hazard. So if we accept those things as being true, I think it probably is rotten. It is true. So what... It's impotent in terms of following its proper, you know, stated purposes. So why not seize the property through the public domain for the public? The town isn't willing to do that at this point, you know? Well, a lot of people... Mary should speak. Mary should speak because, you know, I think she should speak. Well, I just... So I'm Mary Jacobson and I live on the far side of the lake. And I, like you guys, absolutely love members in Hong Kong.  It's an incredible body of water. And I would say to everybody moving forward in whatever fashion, whatever shape things are going to take to hold on to a swimming pool. There have been things happening over a number of years that have been warming up on. The usage has increased exponentially. It's not just limited to the beach. It could go all around. But, I mean, I can just... Can't tell you the amount of garbage. It's, you know, feminine products. It's youth pro-plastics. It is McDonald's trash. I take this stuff up all the time. It's used disposable diapers. It's every day. I walk or run the JR road almost every day of the year. I think every year around, I'm not looking there just in the summer. It's my backyard. It's where everybody swims. But it smells. I think even the nicest people I know probably have children or adults in their family who are going to the bathroom there. And they're not just moving forward a lot.   You have to put that component. How is it going to be managed right now? All that garbage is not really managed, which is part of the problem, that whether the women's relief from wants to or not, there's no management. So you don't have to lose what you're going to say around locally. So... I don't like her response from me. So it's a long year commitment before we managed the swim area as well as the swim lesson program. So I do deal with some basic management. I'm not saying that all of the issues can get taken care of, but I do some of them. And how do you guys handle that? Trash issues or body issues? Well, we do provide trash-happy access. And we do... I mean, like, our swim instructor, actually, it's this one's in the studio, if there's any trash. That's our first job, you know? So I feel like there's some simple things that can be done. There's signage there, around, like, no glass, no dogs, things like that. And on occasion, Don Tyson's going to take it in upon himself. He's at house on the point. You know, he has... I think there was some, like, teenagers carving just at the dog and flyers, so he took it on himself and held it down constable. And he was like, you're son-less. Me? Yeah. So... So, you know, we had to do that a couple times, but I feel like overall, a pretty minimal effort. It's been pretty effective. Oh, courtesy of... Now your hand's a little different. So I don't know, but I feel like that could be worked with some help. I feel like there's enough people who... I'm just saying to, like, keep it on the... Yeah. I think... It's not just locals who did it, but some of the people from far away. We even had to do a kind of conservation of the shore, also, when working with the state and the... around really issues there. So I feel like some of the shoreline, you know, that there could be posted areas where some of the shoreline is getting rid of, and especially, like, not necessarily. So... And when there's clear, like, guidelines and boundaries, then there's, like, when I go there, like, you can say, oh, there's no fires. Because, you know, it's very clear and kind of a tech base. I'm clear. It's really unclear. So, like, it kind of feels like a lot of people that are there and sort of access that, you know, there's not dogs there. There's not things, like, there's only that trash or something. You know? So you probably need some kind of official committee, like, to get it. I mean, that's something that's a great teaching. I mean, just, you know, I just want you to go in it. I know. I don't want... I mean, please, I don't want it like that, to go that way. Yeah. Go ahead. So, uh, I actually live on Nelson Park, where I've been working for the last few years. And so, we do a lot of this kind of patrolling through sign and judging fishing access. And through, I think we've heard a lot from the police, the group, the board. We have an animal meeting. We're actually meeting the first add-on in the August every year. And it does help, like Heather was saying. You know, if we have rules and guidelines, and there's a sense of community that's supporting these rules and guidelines. But one of the other things that we often said is, you know, we keep talking about new protected. You know, it is one of the cleanest lines of water. I loved the article last year in the making magazine, but it also pains me because it invited, it invited, you know, it makes it so weird, you know, and even just this conversation and dialogue and the outcome of this meeting, we're publicizing it. And we're inviting people from outside to come and see what we're trying to protect. And, you know, I love that it's our community and I love that it extends beyond our cat sports, but I don't want it to be like this. But that doesn't mean there's access by number 10. No, no, no, I'm talking about number 10. I'm also, maybe I was speaking too much, but I'm also fortunate to be a fosterer senate, so I have access to the whole bachelor in first place and the COVID and some pond. You know, but I'm still here today because I really support public access of number 10. You know, I grew up in Boston for some summers here, swimming in number 10 and on Lawson, but we need to protect it. We, you know, we need to protect money and our rights with the pond and what we're inviting to come to this pond and what kind of public outcry we're creating because I don't want it to become, I don't know, I don't want my gates to open. The other thing too, I did everything so I see two disabled issues at hand. There's Memorial Hall and that includes the War Memorial and while I'm mostly here to support the swimming area, I don't know how they did the way the War Memorial from the public and I brought with me Kate's book by Robert Callis and I don't know if anyone has it or has read it, but on page 58 in 1885, Memorial Hall was deeded for public use of the land itself. The hall was then built in 1885 to 1886. There was some changes in hands. The title was transferred in 1893 to Colorado Stoke Host, right? It then went on to the Williams Relief Court that was 1916 and the sons of veterans and then back to the Williams Relief Court. At that point in time they had 29 members. So their full responsibility was to maintain the hall for the benefit of the town although it's not town property and memory of those who served their country and then in 1888 our then town rep, Clarence Twennell introduced a bill soon became act number 273 and it exempted the organization from taxation of the building for the land and other property. So they exempt some taxes because of its public use as well as the white property. And in that same book it probably right around after where you're reading, it talks about all the functions that used to be there. You know, not just weddings but, you know, and I don't know what it is. All of our community needs have been held here. Yeah, that's me. It's my only name here. But one thing that you didn't even know was the last part whereas as far as it can be discovered Memorial Hall is the last GAR Hall in existence in America except for one other located in Washington and that in itself makes it a really special place. Right. But it may make it difficult for the national organization to know how he dealt with a situation like that. But it might not be difficult to get it done in the National Register for historic building. Oh, it is. It's a very rare historic site especially it doesn't have taxes, pay taxes. So it's already on in this building. Oh, yeah. Yeah, but we, I know somebody who actually called this is a couple of years ago because we've been kind of thinking about this. We saw the writing on the wall a long time ago. So he called and as soon as he mentioned anything about maybe this is, you know, being mishandled they didn't want to hear it.  I mean, I just want to know who are they and because they don't, they probably can find out who they are. Yeah, but if you look, it's pretty clear that that website is not the update since Facebook. It is very clear. It is. It's true. It's true. It's for people to have.  Oh, I don't know. They, they might like sell it but it doesn't mean it, it doesn't mean it breaks down as a national organization because as a national organization they really do anything. They're not retaining it or whatever. No, yeah. This is the woman's review I got to answer to them. I mean, does this local women's relief court have to answer to the national level? Well, that's a little sure. But, but, but there's no fact of the word. So I think if you contact them they'll be very happy to sell this. Well, there were a few female addresses on the website that we probably said it's a shame. It's not an actual question. Can I ask you any questions any late? Okay. So the next meeting is next Monday. As a group do we want to have some questions and ask the select board so we have something prepared for next meeting because we're just kind of you know, it's that time we need to kind of like come to a closure. Do we want some questions other than here? Okay. So what we need to be is I think we should form this one around. Yeah. Some of that can be done over email. Yeah. I just wanted to respond to that. I just actually take off but I just wanted to put out there that one thing we haven't discussed at length is this issue of name it Tammy Lino harassing and wrecking violence for the members of our community. And I just want to say that that to me beyond all this other stuff is something that needs to be addressed. And I think that anybody who experiences that especially given that we were told that the select board meeting that according to the select board that means a public right of way the road anyway a class four road they've been maintaining it it's a class four road for years and I think that any you know inappropriate behavior garnered towards community members by her or others should be instantly reported to the select board and the town constable and that they and the state police have needed that the town has a duty to respond to that I've already done it well I know I know but but the more calls to the state police call the state police and everybody just reported just reported this is regarding it I don't have a line today indictment in Vermont how to get an indictment you can you can download a form a legal document that you with harm and you can go report and have it acted upon I had serious serious issue with her I mean I no I mean I think I just I'm a friend of mine I've been a friend of mine on the beach when that happened to you I think I think just the more it's reported exactly people yeah take your bills and then take your bills take the phone number of the state police with you when you go to the beach and tell people I mean I take my postage so take your indictment to court then the police will act It takes a physical act, but that's what I was told by the audience. Well, I don't think the nation is ever afraid that she doesn't revolve or under the control of the people. Who said that? I didn't say that. I didn't say that for a while. All right, we contrast with the closure. She went out of this point when she came. She said, I have a revolver. Oh, wow. Did she swim? Yes. Yes. And now she runs out. So what's motive? Is she trying to, does she want to sell it? Or is she just going to go and sell it? I don't get it. She's probably going to sell it. All right, so how are we going to get out of this? I'm glad you're the first one to be. Yeah. Oh, I can hear that. Oh, sorry. Today, because I had a call, she said, do you even just come back from meeting with the Select Board? They had a special meeting. They were going to have this black night that they would put a channel for the Unplugged Forum that the meeting is happening next Monday. So I'll hold them back. Stay out of this. So was that already going to happen? No. Yeah. Well, the next meeting is specific to that. That was important. Well, I get the feeling they don't really want to talk about it until the one we got the yellow paper for on the 31st. They don't want to, they've got so much legal stuff to deal with. And they are working on it. I think we'll need to know about the delivery person. Yes. So we, on the 23rd, 31st meeting, we come together. There are some good questions we're going to pose to the Select Board. That's going to be important because that's going to drive what they're going to do next. Can you pose other questions as a group? I know. Or formulate individual questions and scratch out redundant ones? Yeah. So that's one way to get it started. We're going to get our email into the board so they come prepared. Yeah. They can sort out which ones. And which ones are still on it. Yeah. So the question I have is, I want you to re-compare what they said downstairs. Is that who clarified who owns the room? Right. It's a big problem. It's already clear. I talked to the road commissioner if anyone wants to hear, just last weekend. Yeah. I mean, they are trying to figure out with a class 4 road, there may be less of a border there. And there may, you know, because it doesn't, I think normally it's 25 feet from the center of the road for a regular road. It's less so for a class 4 road. 16 feet. But there may be also, because of the border. 16. It's tied up right now. They're working on it. I've got a question for you. Yeah. He's on. A fishing pole down here, I can't appear in my hand. From the first Saturday in April until October 31st, I'd probably spend more time on the lake than anybody here. Okay? Well, only because you live there. But what I see, and I was introduced to the lake in 1962, been going there ever since. So I have some history. The lake certainly gets overused now because there is more transportation and easier access to get there. I don't blame anybody for not wanting to be at that lake. I just came back from Alaska, the first place I wanted to be was on the lake. It's a beautiful place. However, it belongs, I feel it belongs to the citizens of Calis. And as long as you're a resident of Calis paying your taxes, and good standing with your taxes, we should be able to get a sticker or a piece of paper or something to put in our windshield that says that we are in good standing with the town and should be able to use any body water in our town. It's ours. We pay our taxes. It gets overused. I'm there every day. And I can guarantee you on any given day, there are more people from out of town than there are Calis residents on that beach. Our problem is, as a society, we don't police it well. We've let it happen. I sit on the other side every day and I watch. I've met some interesting people, some good people, some interesting people, not so good. Coming from that beach area. But what just happened just recently, somebody went down there and weed whacked it. That's totally against the law. You know, you were talking about high watermark, low watermark. While there is a law, the high watermark, 50 feet back, you can't remove, plant, do anything with that. Unless you've been, it's actually grandfathered. Right. If you've been doing that, exactly. You can keep weed whacked. That's right. But what we need to do is we need to, if that road does actually belong to the town, and we know we now do have access in there and we can go down there and use that beach area, it's not a problem. The problem would be parking. So, you know, we need a place for people to park. However, who's going to force it? You know, once that parking area is full, go to the next pond. You know, that's not going to happen. They're going to continue to park down the road. And I've gone up there on some days and they're down where the Y splits, and there's cars parked along there. I don't use any of that area. I park behind where I fish. Legally, I don't know if that's legally wrong. Nobody's bothered me. Nobody's kicked me out of there yet. But we're all looking for the same thing. We're looking to be able to keep our children swimming there because that's where we grew up when we swam. That's what I'm hearing from the consensus of this group out here. But we've let it happen. So now we have to rectify it. We're not going to rectify it by everybody throwing stuff back and forth. We need to get together as a group. I say we. I could care less one way or the other. The only thing that happens is if it gets shut down, my scenery changes. Okay. That's the only thing that changes for me because I'm still going to add a swim. But I enjoy the people that are over there. I've met a lot of great people and Marion and Roland, they walk through there every day that I'm swimming and fishing. I've seen these ladies there walking by. We love to use it. We're almost selfish, but let's keep it for ourselves. We need to find a way to keep the numbers down and keep it for our community and our guests. I think that's the more important issue that's been made to this body where you're slug-worn and you're able to tackle. That is to be selective on who can be there. And if, you know, I know somebody from up there, I invite you to join me and go to that dock. Absolutely. We should be able to have a guest. I'm excited to be permitted if they have a stay. So I think that's getting off a little bit off of the, maybe a territory one would want to be. People in general tend to love things to death. Look at our national parks. But that's a whole bigger issue. I think it's really the access to that. And then we get into the population control. And I think that's more about what these folks are talking about is property policing management, carrying it, carrying it out, trash, some rules to follow because clearly a lot of people don't, the last dogs, that sort of thing. But I'm getting into, you're not from Gallup. I mean, now we're getting picky about who's right to be here. Somebody says, you know, I live in Barrie, but I grew up in Cal.  So I think that's kind of dangerous territory to move across the park. But other than that, I hear what you're saying. I think there is an overall... I guess I put that more towards the parking issue because the, like I say, every day there's more out-of-town residents over there than there are Cal residents. I mean... That was a miserable share. They're all of C2 as well. But he did get into the permit parking now, and he may come here. I think we should focus on one topic. It's complicated as it is already. That's going to be my hands-on form. That may be a solution, but I think it's a problem for everyone. I think it might be a problem when you're saying a mini-step process. I'm going back to my dog. To make the first step is to find a way to secure that beach. To secure it for the public. I have a comment about it. Is there somebody who's going to collect these different ideas? As much as I would like to think is that somehow our private pond for the public citizens of Cal, I think you've got people... It's a public boat launch. And so people have paid for licenses on their boats. Don't you have to register your boat? So I would think that everybody has a right to go to anybody's water, no matter where they're from. Even if they're from out-of-state. And also... What's the other one? I guess as the students now, we shouldn't go into access. Yeah. But you still have to be able to park somewhere if you want to fish. And you buy a fishing license. That's for the fishing and voting access. Yeah. But if that overflows with many people, then they're going to be parking up and down the road. Well, not being able to afford a solution while you're at it was the other day. Yeah. You don't have to have to register your boat to go to Florida. So what I understand and what you're going to be doing is for voting and fishing only. And they will enforce that rule. And as people... I've heard over other conversations on fishing wildlife or construction people fishing access to put it up in the southern part of the world. What big to say when that goes well, I think a part of it will work. Yeah. And then they're going to park on the road and then they're going to be chasing that and all the way to the part of the world. So how difficult would it be to put it up in the county to make a parking area for the county? Yeah. Yeah. Can I say something about the beach that I've been told by Peck Haskins that's... I've got to keep going. Deb Haskins and she said that that beach was never a public beach per se. It was owned before the Valentine's and before the Valentine's I think it goes back a couple of decades where the person who owned that cottage brought in sand and maybe even had a dock. I don't know. There was a dock somewhere. Maybe it was out by Memorial Hall years ago. 1946, it's in the New York. Yeah, but that... by the cottage? So there was some nice person who owned that cottage that felt fine about people coming and that's why it became a public beach. That's my understanding according to... I'm not saying it didn't go away. Okay, so maybe way back but maybe he enhanced it with more sand. But all I'm saying is I don't think the Women's Relief Corps ever put the sand down at that beach, right? So a private owner put it down and was kind enough to allow it to be a public beach. That's just what I understand. I'm not saying it shouldn't be. I'm just saying people began to believe that that was the public beach whereas I've been told that's not true but I don't think the Women's Relief Corps encouraged it that they allowed it. But years ago, the sand was put in by the town. Was it? Yes, of course it was. I didn't know that. It was not built until the early 60s because I was a... The camp, yes. It was sometime in the very early 60s because I was around. In the interest of time, are we generating questions that I grew before that was where I was passed? I think people should write down questions.  If people want to write them down we can start. What if we want to email address? I'm going to keep these. I can zero this and give it to everyone if somebody wants to be in charge of this. I've spent so much time on this. I will take the name to email and I will email everybody to my little list of any questions. Okay, I'm going to zero this first and then that'd be great. That'd be great because it's a lot of work. So if anybody has a question... That's great. And there's going to be a lot more people.


Well, thank you very much, Professor Cook. I was having a, as Professor Cook mentioned, I was a graduate of National War College as having a conversation out in the foyer before the first speaker. With an Army Lieutenant Colonel, we were sort of comparing notes on National War College versus Naval War College. You know, National was great. I really enjoyed my time there. I think that the highlights and the strengths of that are, one, it's in the DC area, so you did have access to lots of things going on DC. The class mix, just kind of looking at colors in the audience was probably a little more joint. It was also probably a little more interagency. But there are two things that make Naval War College, to me, I think, just amazing. And the first one is the commute is much better here than it is in DC. But the other one is this, it's the focus on leadership and ethics. I don't know how the other service academies are with that, but National, that's not really something they focus on. So this makes, certainly by comparison to, this makes this really amazing. I know that y'all are working very hard, but I'm also super jealous, because this is remarkable what you have going here. And speaking of which, I am just so thrilled to be able to participate in this remarkable symposium. So Professor Cook, thank you so much for the invitation and Admiral Howe is lying. I had nothing to do with him getting through hell week. He did that all himself. Okay, so Professor Cook also mentioned that I am currently working on my PhD at the University of Virginia. That's true, it's really, it's very cool to go back to school as a 50-year-old. And in almost every way, I'm just another student just like everybody else. Every once in a while I get kind of pulled out to go talk to veterans organizations or they wheel me out at Veterans Day. But I had, there was one opportunity that I really enjoyed, or I say that. I enjoyed it when I was invited to it. And that was the coach of the women's basketball team. I asked for me to come and speak to her team. Yeah, and I was very excited about that. So I obviously accepted the invitation and I went and talked to the women and it was kind of my usual shtick that I did. I didn't prepare very much for it. Got up there and told a few war stories and figured that would be sufficient. But I gotta tell ya, I could tell the whole time I was not connecting with this audience at all. This was a tough crowd. I mean, these were elite athletes, right? This was the top level of college basketball. They're concerned with winning national champions and championships and if I can help them, beat Duke in North Carolina and Notre Dame, great. If I can't, please move along. And that's what I was getting. I was definitely in their eyes as like, oh my gosh, would you please move along? But so I mean, I do my remarks and probably the clearest indication that I hadn't hit the mark was. I say, okay, what questions do you have for me? And y'all have probably been there before, just total crickets, there was nothing. There was nothing at all. Finally, the captain of the team, a gal named, she was the point guard, Lexie Gerson, who was an amazing athlete. She finally had heard the deafening silence enough and so she stepped into it and she asked the question that everybody was in the room was thanking and that was, okay, great, but what does this mean to us? So we got it. Seals are courageous people, but can we learn how to be courageous or is this just something you're born with? Is this just something that seals are born with? So wow, what an amazing question that was. And it's a question that's been bothering me pretty much ever since. It's been bothering me for two reasons. First of all, it troubles me that looking back on it, I gave Lexie a really crappy answer to that. So I think, I said, yeah, I think that courage is something you can learn. It is something that can be taught. And then I sort of wheeled out Aristotle. And yeah, Aristotle can tell us a lot about how we learn and how we develop and exercise our virtues like courage, but there's no sure way of shutting down a conversation than bringing out Aristotle. In fact, I think when Aristotle was up there, right, it was like, oh God, Aristotle, awesome. Actually, I have found that there is probably no more obnoxious creature on the planet than a PhD student wheeling out such people. I was, my wife is a recently retired flag officer, so pretty no nonsense. And we were having a conversation. And I don't recall what the discussion was about, but I said, well, you know, honey, I think the point you're making is epiphenomenal to the outcome variable here. And my wife kind of looked at me for a second and said, if you ever use language like that again, you're fired. So I'm learning my lessons slowly. But the second reason that Lexi's comments have really stuck with me or Lexi's question has really struggled me and has been troubling me ever since is that I hadn't asked that question. I had never asked that question. So I spent 26 years in a profession where arguably the core virtue is courage. And yet I never asked the question, how can I teach my seals to be courageous? Or is this just something that they, when they come across my quarter deck, they show up with? Or they don't show up with? And it's even worse than that. So for two years from 2006 to 2008, I commanded the Naval Special Warfare Center. So I was in charge of the basic training for all of Naval Special Warfare. And if courage is something that can be taught, and courage is something that can be learned, that's pretty much where it ought to happen, right? And yet courage was never a stated learning objective, never, throughout my time there, maybe it's changed. So I'm retired now, I've been retired for six years. So this question for me, Lexi's question, is now purely academic and I'm gonna continue to work on it. But I'm hoping that perhaps my evolving thoughts on this topic may be marginally useful and interesting to y'all. My first insight regarding this, as I've gone back and thought about it some more, is was basically that Aristotle insight that Aristotle, again, he's got something to say here, but that's probably not who I need to rely on to answer his Lexi's question. Better person to rely on is Senior Chief Tosh. He was one of my blood instructors when I was commanding out there eight years ago. So quick story, this was my first Hell Week as commanding officer of the Naval Special Warfare Center. Hell Week is, I guess most people kind of know what that is, it's the culminating event at the end of that initial selection phase. And it's hard on a commanding officer. If you really think about it, we feel that our responsibility is to look after and take care of the welfare of all of our people. And you know, it just, you're doing that and you know you're doing that, but as you're seeing these students going through this, it's really hard for you in your heart to say, yeah, I'm taking care of you, but you are. But even though I had been in for over 20 years at the time, so I was a captain, this was my major command tour, I really didn't get Hell Week. And I think that most SEALs and even most senior SEALs really still don't get what it is we're doing there. You almost have to have done it, you have to be there to get it. I understood the mechanics of course, but I had a very unsophisticated perspective on what the purpose of it was. So on the fourth day of my very first Hell Week out there, I was walking in, I was walking across the grinder, and I noticed the incoming shift, they had just arrived, we'd go on shifts, the students are there, one shift, 100% of the time, everybody else there on three shifts of eight hours. And so the morning shift had come in, and I noticed that they had really turned up the amp, man, they had really started turning up the intensity, and this is day four of Hell Week, and I wondered why. So historically really nobody ever leaves, nobody ever quits after the third day of Hell Week, so why not just kind of slack off and at least back it down a little bit. I'm trying to protect my people. So I pulled Senior Chief Tosh aside, he was the shift chief, and I asked him, what are we doing here? And he answered very diplomatically, but also very directly. It's like sir, Hell Week starts now, this is the most important part. And as I matured in my command, I started realizing just how right he was. Despite my many years in the teams, I had never fully grasped the purpose of selection phase. It's more than just a two by four across your forehead. There's some real purpose for it. And I had bought into that conventional wisdom that this was about culling the herd, about weeding out the weak from the strong. Not even close, not even close. Selection isn't about attrition and it never has been. It's about teaching and learning. It's about indoctrinating those who decide not to quit in the essential virtue of our community, in fact the essential virtue of any warrior and that's courage. So going back to Lexie's question, the answer is a definitive yes. Courage can be taught, courage can be learned. And what I should have told her is that Naval Special Warfare has been doing it for decades. So have many other commands or many other communities. Now we haven't been doing it deliberately necessarily. So courage training, at least when I was in command was something that just sort of happened organically and implicitly. But we were doing it nonetheless and here's how. So SEAL instructors incrementally and almost daily expose SEALs to experience or SEAL candidates to challenges they've never before faced. And in confronting these challenges, our students learn and practice three character strengths. Self-knowledge, self-control and love. And together I argue that these three strengths are the constitutive elements of the virtue of character, or I'm sorry, of the virtue of courage. So what I plan to do this morning is I wanna elaborate on each one of these. I also wanna discuss a fourth constitutive element of courage that I believe Naval Special Warfare and actually very few organizations pay proper attention to. And that fourth one is a tolerance for failure. So Dr. Cook asked me if I wanted to use PowerPoint and I said no. But there's sort of, if I could have, I would have had one slide up there maybe the whole time. So instead of PowerPoint, if you've got something to write on and write with, go and write those four down. So it's self-knowledge, self-control, love and a tolerance for failure. And when we come around to the Q and A just in case we're in crickets mode, instead of that, if you don't have a question, start to think about those four because this is kind of a work in progress for me. I'm thinking through this. Do I have it right that those are the constitutive elements of courage? And do I have it right that those are things that can be taught and that can be learned? Yeah, so let's just have that discussion or tell me where I'm right and tell me where I'm wrong on this. So first of all, self-knowledge. For every individual, there is a point of exertion beyond which the body and the mind shut down. That's just a fact. It's a physiological fact. Because our species has evolved to kind of pull up short, right before you collapse, which is a fine strategy, a very prudent evolutionary strategy, very few people explore that. Very few people understand precisely where that shutdown point actually resides. So when SEAL candidates start approaching that perceived shutdown point, most of them are gonna decide to call it quits. And actually that's simply a rational response when you get right down to it. It's a very rational impulse.  They'll take one more step, even though it might even be dangerous. And what they do when they take that next step and then the next step and the next step is they learn something, they learn a basic truth about all human beings. And that is that our reserve tanks go pretty dog on deep. We all have this understanding that our limitations are here, but actually they're somewhere here. It's the same with the machines we use. Where is that line? Where is that point where the airplane just is not gonna fly anymore? Sometimes there's a delta between perceived limitations and real limitations. Has anybody ever read the book or seen the movie Loan Survivor? So not that many. Okay. Well, so this was Loan Survivor recounts the story of Operation Red Wings, which was an aborted reconnaissance, well it was larger than this, but the part that the story recounts, it was an aborted reconnaissance operation in the Kunar province of Afghanistan in 2005. The story gives a great account of a pretty remarkable firefight that given the odds probably should have lasted a couple of minutes and ended up lasting several hours. It's also an account of a multi-day evasion that Marcus LaTrell, who was the only surviving member of the four-man SIL reconnaissance element, so it recounts his evasion. So Marcus was awarded the Navy Cross for this extraordinary courage that was recounted in that movie. But if you break that citation down, what the award is primarily recognizing is LaTrell's almost inexplicable refusal to quit. I think just about all of us, myself included and maybe myself especially would have quit long before that, but he just kept on going. And that's what we see, that's what we honor in that Navy Cross citation. But maybe it is explicable. And indeed in the book, Marcus LaTrell spends a lot of time talking about his experiences at Buds. His experience as a trainee. And that's where he learned about this difference between what his perceived limitations were and what his real limitations were. This is where he learned self-awareness. Peter Berg ended up directing the movie version of this. And I think it speaks volumes that one of the first things he did when he got the gig as director of this movie was he flew down from Hollywood to my command to take a look at this to see, okay, what happens here? I wanna know because this seems central to the story. Something that's happening, some learning and some teaching that is happening here is central to this story of courage that I'm gonna try to capture on film. The second constitutive element of courage that I am arguing can be taught and can be learned is self-control. So chaos is a killer. People are unaccustomed to chaos, seize up when they're confronted by it. They try to control everything and in the process of trying to control everything they end up controlling nothing. So introducing seals to chaos is one of the key objectives of the early phases of seal training. The desired learning outcome for the candidate is to understand that even in the most chaotic situations, we are never entirely powerless. There is always gonna be at least one domain of control and that domain is ourselves. It's our own emotions. It's our own responsible, our own emotional responses to whatever is happening. I had a commander one time that it was sort of his big three of this is what we do and this is what we, it makes us who we are and one of them was we thrive in chaos. I don't think that's right. I don't think that anybody thrives in chaos but I will say this that for those people who for whatever reason have learned to control their emotional responses to chaos, they at least seem to be thriving in chaos and that can be everything. So a good example of this and pulling away from a seal example here, Admiral Stockdale and his fellow POWs during their captivity and the Hanoi Hilton. So at the core of this amazing story of courage that these men events just about every day, I argue was self-control. So Stockdale had before he was a POW, he had studied stoicism and he had studied the stoics, especially Epictatus, Seneca and Marcus Aurelius and when he was captured and when he was a senior POW at the Hanoi Hilton, he put that education to use and he meticulously sorted out, okay, these are the things that I can control, that we can control, these are the things that we can't control and he focused everybody's attention on what they had agency over. Now a POW has very little personal agency, indeed being a prisoner might be one of the most constrained set of circumstances imaginable but what Stockdale taught his fellow prisoners and what they learned from Stockdale was to concentrate all their energies only on those things where they had some control over it and this was probably especially important not to ruminate on those things that they had no control over. So rather than echoing those hollow edicts about tell them nothing but your name rank and serial number, which is a strategy that is always gonna go wrong, Stockdale directed his fellow POWs to instead focus their energies on making their torturers work for everything they got, that they could control. So rather than feeling like failures when they gave up information, they felt like successes when they lasted one more minute, five more minutes when they made the torturer sweat just a little bit more. The third constitutive element is love. I wish maybe I had a better word for it, but I don't. And here again I am arguing that this is something that we can teach and this is something that can be learned. So how? And here again I'm gonna go back to basic skill training as an example. So every class of skill candidates that comes through, it's always the same thing.   They, we just call it coming together as a class. So it starts with a simple, a set of a few simple cooperative routines that they do together. The relationship of one student to another at this point is purely instrumental. What they value in that other human being is the fact that they are useful to them. They are useful for the fact that yeah, you're keeping me out of the surf zone, you're keeping me from that pain that I'd otherwise be expecting, be experiencing. But they soon learn to appreciate their classmates' usefulness and then maybe eventually start admiring the skills that they bring to the table that keep them out of the surf zone. Next comes a sense of trust and a desire to reciprocate. At some point in the process, a bud's class learns a basic truth and that truth is that there's almost nothing that we can't accomplish when talented people come together and start working as one and when they reach that point, they also discover that the welfare of those other human beings that they're working with is at least as important as their own well-being. The welfare of their classmates are just as important as their own personal well-being and that I say is love. And if you look at the citations for all of the Medal of Honor recipients, those are just love stories. I mean, they're almost all love stories. This was clearly the case for one recent seal recipient, Michael Mansour. In September 2006, an Iraqi insurgent threw a grenade into an observation post where there was being occupied by Petty Officer Mansour and two of his teammates. According to his teammates that survived that day, the only one who should have survived was Mike Mansour, who did not. Mike could have easily rolled out of that OP and saved himself and I'll read from the Medal of Honor citation. While the seals vigilantly watched for enemy activity, an insurgent threw a hand grenade from an unseen location, which bounced off Petty Officer Mansour's chest and landed in front of him. Although only he could have escaped the blast, Petty Officer Mansour chose instead to protect his teammates. Instantly and without regard for his own safety, he threw himself onto the grenade to absorb the force of the explosion with his body, saving the lives of his two teammates by his undaunted courage, fighting spirit and unwavering devotion to duty in the face of certain death. Petty Officer Mansour gallantly gave his life for his country, thereby reflecting great credit upon himself and upholding the highest traditions of the US Naval Service. So I imagine that to many Americans, this account reads as some sort of gung-ho tribute to runaway patriotism. That would be a profound misunderstanding. I had the opportunity to speak with one of Petty Officer Mansour's teammates at his memorial service. And the story that he told was factually the same as the Medal of Honor citation, but the tenor was radically different. So according to his teammate, before Mansour smothered the grenade with his body, he looked down at the grenade, looked up at his teammate, made eye contact with his teammate and offered his final two words.  This was not somebody who wanted to go out in a blaze of glory. This was a supreme act of love. Okay, let me recap kind of where we've come so far. So I've argued that courageous behavior requires three constitutive elements, self-knowledge, self-control and love. I have also argued that these three constitutive elements are things that we can teach and things that people can learn. And then I also have offered that basic seal training at least provides an exemplar. And I know there's tons of other examples out there. That's the one I drew on for this. But now I'd like to discuss what I believe is a fourth constitutive element of courage which unfortunately has fewer exemplars in the military. And that's tolerance for failure. And I think I'll spend a little extra time with this one because I think it's less intuitive. In fact, I actually, I may just be wrong here. So I'll spend a little more time there and so you can attack this, because I might be wrong. So a decent engineer, any engineers out there? A decent engineer approaches pretty much any project knowing just one thing for certain. And that's that someday this thing is going to fail. So why so negative? Why are engineers so negative? And negativity of course has nothing to do with it. Engineers assume failure because they're trained to make this assumption. Every first year engineering student learns that any non-equilibrium system, a category of system that includes all man-made systems, I think, is destined to someday degrade and someday fail. Armed with this knowledge that degradation and failure is a matter of when and not if, good engineers focus on the question of how? How is it gonna fail? They design their bridges and their rockets and their computers so that when they degrade, when they fail, they fail gracefully. So graceful failures are anticipated, they're controllable, and most importantly, they're recoverable. Catastrophic failures, by contrast, are unforeseen, unmanageable, and they often result in disasters. So I think we're all fortunate that the technical experts who design our hardware, our submarines, our surface ship, our aircraft, our communications networks, they understand the importance of graceful failure. Yet we who operate those systems are often very ill at ease with failure. And I'd like to see more leaders who become comfortable with the F-word, with the other F-word, this failure. Okay, like engineers, military leaders, design and manage systems. But the systems that we are entrusted with are infinitely more complex. They're more fragile than anything fabricated in a shipyard. The non-equilibrium systems that we lead are human social systems, a ship's deck division, a marine rifle company, a seal platoon, a numbered fleet, an expeditionary force. So these are all examples of non-equilibrium systems. So no matter how good they are, no matter how good you think you are, they are going to fail. They are going to fail someday. And this should prompt us as leaders to ask some important questions. So when the human social systems that we lead fail, will they fail gracefully or will they fail catastrophically? And this may sound defeatist. And even worse, when we talk about tolerating failure, it's counter-intuitive and it's potentially dangerous given the stakes that some of our missions that sometimes we are playing for. The failure is not an option approach to leadership on the other hand, it's quite intuitive. It enjoys an admirable pedigree and it has been credited with many distinguished accomplishments. Indeed, the seals several years ago put together an ethos. The last line of that ethos is, I will not fail. So the failure is not an option is built in to who that community thinks it is. So definitely a failure is not an option approach to leadership can result in great things and great achievements. I suggest, however, that they are far less likely than conventional wisdom may suggest. A more likely outcome, I argue, is an uninspired workforce that seeks safety and middling accomplishments. Fears change and deals with perceived errors by either concealing them or deflecting the blame on somebody else. In short, when we are intolerant of failure in ourselves and in our organizations, I believe we stifle courage. So three mechanisms contribute to this outcome. First, failure is not a leadership, I'm sorry, failure is not an option leadership, discourages boldness. Generally for any given tactical or strategic situation, there is the standard solution, the way things have always been done and then there is the best solution and ideally they're one in the same but there's no real reason for us to expect that they always will be. The authors of our textbook solutions, they can't foresee everything, right? So we have to be thinking beings and oh, by the way, those other guys are potential adversaries who are trying to get inside that textbook and mess with it. So we always have to be looking for that best decision or that best approach. Sometimes that is the standard solution. Sometimes though the standard solution is like the surest path to disaster. Yet regardless of whether the standard answer is the best one, merely the safest or perhaps a bad way of going, our people are gonna reach for that textbook answer every single time if failure is punished. Novel approaches are just too risky given failure is not an option leadership. If however, our people know that regardless of the outcome, a well-managed risk will be tolerated and perhaps even rewarded, then they'll approach problem solving differently, preferring the best solution to the standard solution when they're not the same. When people work in risk-tolerant environments, not only are they more likely to discover the best solution to persistent problems, but because they are accustomed to working off-script, they're also gonna be better prepared when they are forced to work off-script, when something unique or novel comes their way. So like at the Battle of Gettysburg, failure really was not an option for Colonel Chamberlain at the left flank of Little Round Top, but clearly he was not operating under failure is not an option leadership. Judging from all of the inventive moves that you saw across the union lines those days, risk-taking and context-driven innovation was clearly what leadership out there was doing and was pushing. And the most famous example of that of course is the downhill bayonet charge, which if it didn't succeed magnificently, history would have questioned seriously. So the second mechanism by which failure is not an option, leadership institutionalizes mediocrity and I believe cowardice is by introducing disincentives to trying anything hard. So despite the I will not fail at the end of the seal ethos, every seal that's worth their salt has failed again and again and again. They failed repeatedly. Again, that's how you get at understanding where your limitations are in the first place. Where the system's gonna fail. But people who are taught not to fail, people who are taught to fear failure, they're never gonna get at these limitations, they're never gonna understand where they are and the result is going to be, we're gonna leave vast resources of human capability permanently unexplored and permanently untapped. Likewise, teams that fear the consequences of failure are gonna engineer training scenarios where success is virtually assured. I tell you, I have been in so many exercises like this where the victory party was pretty much on the schedule. We knew exactly when that was gonna be. It's like the Harlem Globetrotters, right? They're always gonna win just as long as they bring out that team that's being paid to lose to them and we do that to ourselves. So how are the Harlem Globetrotters gonna do when Golden State Warriors come out? They're gonna fail. So failure is not an option leadership. I believe has a chilling effect on ambition and vigor. It stunts personal and professional growth. Finally, when failure is not an option, personal and personal ethics may become a negotiation and a brief thought experiment illustrates this pathology. So imagine that you are preparing for a test and you can pay a few bucks and get an answer and let's say that people have been doing this for a long time, we sort of, yeah, I know, this is just sort of what we do. The chances of being caught are pretty slim. So would you cheat? Well, presumably you wouldn't. There really are no gray areas to this one. This is a right versus wrong. Pretty easy question. So now let's think about what if failure, what if the price of failure starts going up? What if the price of failure means you don't get that promotion? What if the price of failure means you lose your job? What if the price of failure means that your family is not going to be fed because we're in a really bad economy right now and I don't know where the next paycheck is gonna be coming from. So would you cheat then? Again, perhaps not. Most of us guard our integrity fiercely. The point, however, should be clear that as the cost of failure rises, as leadership increases our cost of failure, then the nature of the moral question has changed. As the previous speaker was talking about, it's no longer a right versus wrong question. Now we're in that question of two competing rights. It is good. It is good. Fair play is good. But so is feeding your family. So we increase those stakes. A more difficult question perhaps is, all right, what do you do if you observe somebody buying that test? Okay, so now what? What if one of your colleagues purchased the answer? Would you turn her in? The honor system of some of our finest institutions are built on that. They require, they need people to turn their friends in when something like that happens. Yet many universities, many of our top universities who have these cherished honor codes find that their students are surprisingly equivocal about this.  They see that the school's intolerance for failure means that, yeah, if I turn this person in, regardless of the circumstance of that person is out. And so many universities, despite, again, they cherish their honor codes, they have come back and said, okay, let's take a more sophisticated understanding of ethical failure and incorporate that. And then once the students understood that the death penalty had been lifted at most of these places, they started seeing more compliance with the honor code. So when cheating scandals at our service academies, at Ivy League schools, at nuclear missile commands, they shock our conscious as a nation. And justifiably, we question the character of the cheaters, and we should. But I'm suggesting it may also be illuminating to investigate what was the price of failure in each one of those situations. In short, I'd like to suggest to all future commanders that failure is not an option approach to leadership. A leadership style that is generally celebrated in our military and corporate cultures may in fact produce timidity and unethical behavior. Human social systems that do not accommodate for graceful failure inspire caution and rote adherence to standardized procedures. And organizations by contrast that tolerate honest failure, I argue, inspire moral and physical courage. So leaders should ask themselves and their key advisors, okay, is our command built for graceful or catastrophic failure? Okay, when our troops are driving to work, what are they thinking about when they're driving to the work? Are they thinking about, okay, how do I come up with that best answer today?  What is the tenor of our dialogue?  How many times do they turn up in our instructions, in our standing orders? Do we encourage our people to be bold? And then the first time they do try something out of the box, we slam them when they get it wrong. Clearly there are cases where a zero defect mentality is absolutely correct. Clearly there are outcomes that assault our notions of decency and we have to nip those in the bud. But as the words I will not tolerate and as that I will not tolerate list expands to include lesser crimes and misdemeanors and even honest mistakes. And I have been in commands like this and I assume many others have. Then the unintended and unhealthy consequences that I discuss above, I think are absolutely predictable. So before I wrap up, most of my examples have come from the seal world and come from my own experiences which I guess is natural enough. So I think a good critique of what I'm saying here is that it's not generalizable. I'm suggesting it is. I'm thinking of just about any command and I'm thinking just about any organization and I feel that the idea of courage comes back to those four constitutive elements. As Dr. Cook mentioned, I in sort of an act of academic recklessness, my second year at the University of Virginia, I moved, I went off and went to the mountains of Wyoming and became qualified as a Knowles instructor. And I got introduced to the world of experiential education and outdoor education and I kind of got hooked on it. In fact, last summer I took a Naval Academy group out to the Absorcas. It was amazing, I really enjoyed it. And this has taken me in a somewhat strange direction. My plan had been to go ahead and seek that tenure track professor job somewhere but also to come back to Knowles once a year and get my fix for outdoor experiential education. And last year I was dipping my toe in the academic job market and one of my friends from Knowles shot me a job advertisement for the Outdoor Academy, this weird little semester school in the back country of North Carolina that focuses on experiential education. And he put a little smiley face emoticon afterwards. This is the job you should be looking for. Give up that tenure track thing. That's a waste of your energies. Anyway, I thought it was a joke and I didn't pay much attention to it and a little later on, I decided to open up that right before I was gonna trash it. I hit on the button and said, what is this? I didn't know a place like this existed. It's remarkable. So our mission is experiential education for young people, promoting the natural world and the betterment of human characters. It's like, wow, that's bold, that's kind of interesting. So I did explore it a little bit. And just enough that I put in an application, really kind of on a whim, I wasn't serious about it. But the same week that I had, I had two interviews lined up. One was at University of Pennsylvania, so great school, lobby league school. And then that same week, at the end of the week, I was getting an advertisement at the Outdoor Academy. The first interview I had at Penn was with three graduate or with three students. And yeah, it was a softball interview. It was a total softball interview. I think I was asking most of the questions. Like, okay, why are you at Penn? Do you like it here? What's new? And they were answering most of my questions. And then I went on to the real interview, which was tough. The next week, later that week, my first interview was with five 15-year-olds. I just got done with three dad gone Ivy League kids, five 15-year-olds. They're hobbits, man. This is gonna be easy. I'm gonna crush this. I sit down with the five hobbits, and I say, okay, so why are you at the Outdoor Academy? What have you learned here? What's good here? What's not so good here? And they were answering it. And finally this one young lady goes, hey, look, Roger, we've only got an hour here. And we got some serious questions to ask. So what do you think experiential education meets to you? And what would you do if you were the director? And then all five of the hobbits go, they start, they're just like this. And have you ever had that dream that you didn't study for a test? I'm like, ah, this is a real interview. And so I started just, yeah. And they're all writing this down. I was like, what are you kids writing down? Anyway, at the end, again, I came into this interview. I was surprised they even brought me in. I hadn't been in secondary education. And I came into it with really low expectations and didn't want to, this isn't the path I was gonna go on. But I left that interview in holy cow. And so what I saw was that in these students, these were courageous people. And what I have learned since is that organization, that's what they do. It is like a school of courage. And when I think about what we do every day, it's those four, those four constitutive elements. So again, I think I'm onto this. I think that this is generalizable. Self-knowledge that the students come there. In fact, this semester, they showed up in January. Within 24 hours, we were out in Pisgah National Forest and it was nine degrees outside. So they started learning a lot about themselves. Self-control, one of the things that we teach them in all of outdoor ed and in outdoor medicine in particular is when things start getting stressful, the first thing you do is, after you stop the bleeding, et cetera, is you smoke a cigarette, metaphorically. Parents would frown on that if we did that for real.  That's something that we're trained in the good infantrymen learn. Amateurs fire back right away. Professionals get down and figure out what's really going on before you shoot back. Love. We have all of our students, we take away their cell phones right there. We have all of our students vying for one landline phone. Somehow you got to figure that in that process. You develop that strong, powerful community and we go further than we do in SEAL Training by we do give them, we teach them how to do things like giving and receiving feedback. We do teach how you can thrive in community. And failure, absolutely. We, the last, this last trek we are on, the highest grades came from the class that was lost the longest. Well, they got the high grades because they did find their way back eventually. But they were lost for four days and it was like, yeah, that was great. That was pulling victory out of failure. So yeah, I do think that this is generalizable. I'm afraid I probably went a little longer than I should have. Just bear in mind that I'm afraid of Q&A after my UVA experience. So I tried to do this part as long as possible. But I will summarize quickly. I have argued that courage, which is the fundamental virtue of the profession of arms and I think many other professions, is a virtue that can and should be taught and learned. I discussed four constitutive elements that I would love to get your feedback on. First, armed with self-knowledge, a courageous person has learned to persevere when others have packed it in. She responds to real, not imagined human limitations. Second, armed with self-control, a courageous person has learned to be cool-headed when others panic. His mind is clear, his trigger finger, whether that trigger finger is real or metaphoric, is steady. The game slows down for him. Third, a courageous person has learned to love her teammates and is ready to sacrifice much and perhaps everything for them. And when she goes into harm's way, she knows that they have her back in every conceivable way. And finally, a courageous person has learned that he can take well-managed risks because he works in a climate that celebrates graceful failure. I am so grateful for the opportunity to participate in this extraordinary symposium. Thank you.