I have an interview coming up in a minute with Lance McGill the creator of the fantastic movie Third Eye Spies a true story of CIA psychic spying and I could leave it at that that would be a good level one introduction but I'm not in the level one as you know I'm in the level three third eye spy stargate program CIA 1970s spying on the russians using psychics before they spy on us the whole psychic spying program is really important because it shatters the mind equals brain crazy paradigm that we live in these guys were way past that they knew that consciousness extends beyond our brain because they were doing it every day in practice but at the same time they were engaged in some pretty dark MK ultra mind control kind of stuff now on one hand that isn't even controversial in the movie you'll hear them talk about their boss Dr. Sidney Gottlieb the US version of Joseph Mengele as some people call him Joseph Mengele you know infamous Nazi doctors well in the movie they kind of play that off as oh you know we didn't really agree with what Sidney was doing well you might not have agreed with him but Sidney was the damn boss of the thing and he was the boss of this operation too because all this stuff including the psychics spying program fell under this umbrella of mind control and that fell under this range of programs over 150 programs called MK ultra so how about that for more than level one and finally and you'll hear this in the interview although we don't cover it completely you got the whole UFO thing these psychic spies Joseph mcmonichal ingo swan others they're remote viewing mars they're remote viewing the dark side of the moon and they're saying hey there's people there there's bases there there's technology there there's aliens there and anyone around this program will tell you if ingo swan said it it's true he didn't lie he didn't make stuff up so that kind of puts us in a tough level three position what are we supposed to do believe jimmy carter when he says that these remote viewers found a downed plane that no one else could find in africa on the other hand we're supposed to not believe in totally discredit their other findings well now you get a sense of why it's so hard but at the same time necessary to get past the level one here's a great new movie which it is here's the best movie that's ever been made about stargate which it is here's a great filmmaker who's done a great job lance mongia which he is but you might also understand why i don't agree with him on a lot of stuff and why there's this underlying tension throughout this interview here are some clips from the show and i might jump in after some of these clips too because i can't resist adding some more level three stuff the storyline that the movie follows is that russell targ who is of course one of the original principal investigators in this stargate remote viewing program and he's going to reconnect with all these people that have been a part of this amazing program he literally showed up at my door with a big box full of documents that were marked classified and then that had been released and he starts laying out all of these documents on a table and i started to actually question it because it was so incredible um that i i remember going to bed after after meeting him the first night and thinking is this guy like for real i mean this this is something that is so incredible that i'm only going to really be able to do something like this if i can get everybody because it was one of those things where it was just one person saying it it just it sounds too outlandish the conspiratorial guy that i am one of the first questions i had from the beginning is why do you think they released all these documents i have a hard time believing it's just for the vanity or the the interest of this sweet old man professor russell targ who says oh i have all kinds of thoughts on that um you know we think of government as a monolithic thing the government is coming after this or the government is hiding this uh government intentionally is very dysfunctional so this is actually a great point intentionally dysfunctional i love it and i thought he was going someplace with it but if you listen to the interview he really doesn't go any place with it he goes back to saying well you know these things kind of happen in one hand doesn't know what the other hand's doing glance if it's intentionally dysfunctional then it's not really dysfunctional there's an intention behind it who's driving the agenda behind that intention the presidents and elected officials are always the last to know i would say the cia director often falls in that category too because i would um yeah yeah i mean possibly you know i would say the cia director probably knows more than the president does um but but uh russell and how the two scientists that started this this program in the 70s were were both already um vetted people working within established intelligence circles let me just clarify you're saying as opposed to as we do understand it now some programs that are just black yeah these were not black programs these were these were secret programs but they had oversight and and uh if you think about something like remote viewing how easy is it to do remote viewing basically you close your eyes you imagine where your target is is is a hiding and then you write down what comes to your mind the first unexpected images that you get and that's it you know so so it doesn't take billions of dollars it doesn't take fighter jets but the government is uniquely placed to be able to find out if you're right or wrong so you can infiltrate the regular intelligence agencies by giving them information and and not telling them where it comes from wow this is such a cool point and it's something i never thought of before as lance points out this is kind of the ultimate tool on so many levels first it has this huge yield you have to put almost no money into it and you get this huge intelligence payoff on the other end but the other thing as lance points out it has this power the kind of power that only secrets can bring because you have information that only you can vet so but these guys are playing this disinformation misinformation and spread of information at a 3d chest level that we don't totally even get absolutely what you're saying and extended to that who knows you know what's going on so then what do you think those guys are doing with the ufo disclosure thing well that's that's that's right where i was going to go uh you know the the uh my take on both them with remote viewing and them with the ufo thing and i am talking specifically about the people that i interviewed that were um still sort of involved in these kinds of projects even by their own admission um is that these are people who are in the on the inside but they're not really on the inside let me just throw this out because i i'm dying to get someone's opinion on this who's truly thought about it and studied it as you are it seems to me that there's this straight up political thing that's going on that too few people talk about there's a left right republican democrat if you will kind of flavor to some of this so this the ufo disclosure thing is clearly coming from the left and i don't say that to prejudice it in any way it just clearly clearly is it's podesta and clinton were originally the ones that wanted to bring it out and they weren't elected so tom belong who was hooked into that went ahead and brought it out anyway and peter levenda who was part of that whole thing which is lifetime spook and just saying in broad strokes that seems to be one of the the the overlays on this and i'd love to hear anything you think about that well number one trump will be the last person they ever tell he'll be the last one on the boat i think but oh but he has his own he has his own people who are telling him i mean well they're they're starting space force and we don't know why and all this kind of stuff yes but but uh you gotta look at i think i don't know that it's left versus right as much as it is sort of logic versus superstition so i said there was some tension in this interview and at this point you can feel it whenever i stumble into these political discussions i'm always blindsided because to me it's clear that politics is just nonsense it's such a low-level game and that the real players are at a much higher level than this and that'll do it for interruptions and commentary before the interview you know i've never done this before if you've listened to this show so i don't know if people are gonna like this or not like this but before you tell me let me give you a chance to listen to my complete interview with lance mongio welcome to skeptico where we explore controversial science and spirituality with leading researchers thinkers and their critics i'm your host alexa caris and at this point we're all familiar with remote viewing and the history of psychic spying that began in the 1970s with the stargate program at stanford research institute but today's guest award-winning filmmaker lance mongio has a film out third eye spies that is really a deeper look into this history in its implications not just for proving that we're more than biological robots in a meaningless universe but also a deep dive into the politics of secrecy the ongoing tension between liberty and security and ultimately about our place within this thing we call consciousness lance this is going to be a super exciting interview for me thank you so much for joining me on skeptico uh hey thank you so much for having me this is like a lot of fun and i really appreciate your you're having me on well great you know we were just chatting a minute ago the more i get to know your project uh third eye spies which is a great movie and we should mention by the way you know if people haven't seen the movie it's now even available on amazon prime where you can just go watch it for free which is wow that's a great deal why did you decide to put it out on amazon prime just to kind of spread it out to some more people could get to it or well um yes um you know amazon prime you know is is uh if you have an amazon prime membership the film is free there and um you know it's also available on itunes it's available on uh vimeo you know pretty much anywhere that you can get the digital downloads but we really wanted to make uh the film available for uh free if if possible you know like through something like amazon prime or or um netflix and and uh we ultimately decided on amazon prime because um you know it just seems like that really was where the audience was at and and actually we've been doing you know um well there seems like a lot of people are finding the film there and um are able to see it and for me that was the most important thing more than anything else was just simply being able to you know have the film out there and have it be seen by people you know because it's a a subject that a lot of people don't know about and um you know it's it represents rustle targ's life work and so it was very important for me just that it be out there uh in such a way that that uh it's easily findable and amazon prime really gave us that opportunity and we're really grateful for that for anyone who isn't familiar with the movie third eye spies let me go ahead and play a trailer from the movie if you had an ability to be able to remotely perceive stuff any place in the world that could be an extraordinary intelligence source we found that many individuals are able to accurately describe what's going on in distant locations are you saying the work you've been doing is classified it was a research facility that was all that we were going to tell the russians have been spending millions of dollars investigating so-called esp psychic spies almost a psychic arms race here is there any real application to this i think remote viewing has been demonstrated over the 20 years of work that's been sponsored by the government producing crucial and vital intelligence to the nsa cia dea and the secret service i began to feel frightened the kgb did admit what's really going on here state's false assassination the cia was lying they wanted to kill the program storm brewing this is real i say no more secrets let this information out well great trailer yeah great it's actually really a very cool trailer it is a cool trailer it's a cool movie people who haven't seen the movie this is a cinematography this is a theater quality documentary and i think a lot of people have praised you for it and and you deserve that that praise so anything else you want to tell us about the movie making process or third eye spies that isn't covered there in the trailer well the movie itself took you know quite a long time to make mainly because i was doing it you know as as a labor of love i mean i was working on this kind of sporadically as i was also trying to uh you know do other things and um you know it it really represents the first time that a lot of the people that are in the film have actually been on camera uh one of the reasons that the film took so long was because i had to personally reach out to a lot of people uh you know who were very kind of skittish you know to be on camera and that process actually took a number of months for me to reach out to people like kit green like ken kress who was the CIA program manager for the remote viewing program the first one let me jump in there because we're going to throw around a lot of names that some people will not be familiar with or really kind of vaguely familiar with but the storyline that the movie follows is that russell targ who is of course one of the original principal investigators in this stargate remote viewing program along with hal putoff is kind of on this you know final mission you know he's an older guy and he's going to reconnect through you you're with him every step of the way with all these people that have been a part of this amazing program and he gets these documents released and then the thread of the story is okay guys we can now tell the story that we wanted to tell for so long and let's go do it and you go sit down with these people all over the world and they fill in the blanks of this story that we kind of have known about the story of psychic spine but it's just gets a lot deeper than that yeah i i actually uh knew something about this whole program even since i was a child like i remember uh before this was even declassified uh reading an episode of my grandmother's uh reader's digest and it was talking about this like um you know top secret army remote viewing program there'd been leaks about i think this was in the 80s and and um and i kept this like dog-eared copy of reader's digest for decades like you know into college i had this because i always thought you know wow this would make a really interesting film someday and uh you know but i didn't know a whole lot about it but i had also researched some of um how put-offs work and some of um Russell's daughter's work sort of through uh healing and and through uh you know sort of the way consciousness kind of works so i was familiar with them uh when i got a call from a mutual friend of Russell Targ's uh to say that Russell Targ was interested in in speaking with me because he had seen uh another film that i had done he saw a film called six-string samurai which you can find also on amazon prime and on uh you know the internet and and he just thought it was a really visually interesting film and he had a a script that he wanted to turn into a movie which was a narrative film which had nothing to do with with remote viewing it was about esp but it was done in a kind of a narrative way and i read his script and and and then we spoke on the phone about it and um i said look i said you know the real story here i think is this remote viewing stuff that you did for the government i mean this is a fantastic story can we even talk about it and he said you know he said my friend Ingo died last year uh you know he was one of my subjects and and i'm afraid that all of these people are going to pass away and we're not going to get ever get their stories on camera so i yeah i would love to do that and so he literally flew out to la and we spent a long weekend together um just talking about the possibilities and frankly he literally showed up at my door with a big box full of documents that were marked you know classified you know and then and then that had been you know released you know and um and he starts laying out all of these documents on a table and i literally uh even though i knew something about this i did not at all know the extent to what had happened uh with this program that had gone back over 20 years uh you know and and what they had done and i started to actually question it because it was so incredible um that i i remember going to bed after after meeting him the first night and thinking is this guy like for real i mean this this is something that is so incredible that i'm only going to really be able to do something like this if i can get everybody that is still alive that i can find um you know enough credible witnesses uh you know to really discuss this because it was one of those things where it was just one person saying it it just it sounds too outlandish and you need to hear it from a bunch of different people and so that was really my condition going into the film and and we actually talked also at the beginning and this is something i don't think i've talked about before uh about the possibility that we may be still stumbling into ongoing classified work and uh you know we didn't know like what cia and what some of these other agencies were were still doing or what they might not want us to talk about so there was actually like a real conversation about like what do we really want to do this and and ultimately we decided that enough of the work had been already declassified and um and that we were going to be talking about the history we wouldn't be going into any kind of speculation because i think where this sort of falls apart is when you go into speculation and you start talking about what well i know but i can't tell you what my sources are or or whatever and then and then it becomes a sort of second hand and and we wanted this to actually be a historical document not a speculative document you know because uh everything in it is is very well documented you know there's so many story threads in the movie and in turn there's so many story threads in the part that you just laid on us right there because like one little bit that you mentioned about your tattered copy of readers digest is one of the things your movie reminded me is that this was outed like 20 years ago so you have film clips of ted koppel who for folks who are a little bit younger and don't remember but he was it you know in terms of serious night time news you know he was the guy and he's out saying well hey there's a psychic spying thing going on we're in a race with the russians they're doing it we're doing it basically lays the whole thing out but part of the storyline is that that changes and then we move away from then we move into this kind of skeptical denying did it really happen kind of thing we don't really ever get to understanding what the purpose of that why the narrative changed from kind of this openness which there was about it to this denial yeah so we can kind of go down that and then at the same time i want to throw this out throw this on the table too because you you touched on the ongoing nature of these programs and you have just a little bit of a tease at the very end with i think it was kid green but it might have won one of the other you know super duper insiders in an elevator saying oh yeah these programs are still ongoing i know it from a my most trusted reliable source which of course all of us who've really studied this have said duh of course if you can gather any information you want the most secreted information in the world from your enemies of course you're going to continue to do it you're not going to stop doing it just because some senator has some religious objections or something like that you know you know that's that's actually when i first again started this looking at this from sort of filmmakers perspective from a storytelling perspective i would ask people and especially wrestle being you know a producer on the project wrestle target who was the founding co-founding scientists who started all of this who's the villain you know like who's who's the the bad guy in this i mean you know what is and he didn't even think about it he just said it's it's it's the uh the the religious dogma you know the the the scientific dogma to a certain extent but mainly religious dogma and and uh i didn't believe him you know frankly i i thought you know that's this way to outlandish if you have a useful tool you're not going to tell me that some guy that thinks it's you know the devil's work or something is going to keep you from doing it and and what i learned you know through uh years of going out and interviewing you know these people that did this um was yeah i mean i mean that that pretty much was one of the biggest obstacles that they had was just not only a scientific skepticism but a completely illogical skepticism that wouldn't even look at the data that wouldn't even uh entertain the idea that this could even be because this was something that was um you know supernatural and and and spooky and and uh scary did that well exactly what you said it's not just spooky and scary it is the devil's work you know and you have a clip in the film with joe mcdonigal has been on this show and i think is terrific in a number of ways although i also had an interview with ed may who ran the program after russell targ and how put-off left and he's an interesting character because he kind of says he's friends with joe but then on the other hand contradicts what joe's saying because joe sees these deeper spiritual connections with like near-death experience and consciousness in general but i digress because one of the points that again stuck out to me in third eye spies is this point where where joe really becomes kind of passionate talking to russell goes russell we survived five presidential administrations and you get the sense of i we had to put up with all this craziness political craziness that was sometimes driven by purely this fanatical christian kind of craziness about you know how we should understand this stuff from this very narrow religious perspective that i think you're talking about right here and there's just no way to soften that or to make that go away it is and it it really struck me that this was a reality in these guys lives it wasn't just kind of a conceptual kind of thing to toss around yeah you know it's it's the old adage the more things change the more they stay the same um you know i i believe that they have the same issues with the a tip program you know studying ufo's like you know from accounts that have come out from that it sounds exactly like what they went through with remote viewing program in that when you're dealing with something that does not fall within the normal scientific and sort of religious paradigm that a lot of people just cannot get their head wrapped around it they don't want to rock their worldview as as um you know jessica that's in in our film says and and so they will do anything they can to stay inside this box that they have created for themselves and and if you think about it you can go all the way back to galileo and and you know galileo creating a telescope and going out in the streets and pointing this thing up in the sky and trying to get somebody to look through it and and by his account no one would look through it remote viewing and and psychic ability in general is that you can overlay pretty much whatever belief system you want on top of it and and no one can prove you wrong i mean i interviewed ed may you know for for the film and unfortunately he didn't you know make it into the film but um you know he said you know you we can study this for another 50 years and never know how this actually works they just know that it works well ed may says that because that's how it's good and then that's how it's gonna come out i wasn't impressed at all with ed may talk about a dogmatic materialist he's there in my interview he's slamming parapsychology he's right dean grade he's slamming uh gel mcmonichael it's it's just the same old kind of turf war kind of bullshit that it has all these limitations that we've come to expect with science so that's those are the two storylines that that emerge from the movie one is kind of this crazy religious dog mother creates this crazy political process that where things have to be compartmentalized and and couched in a certain way in order to get this minuscule amount of funding but then the other on the other hand there's this other force out there that is this skeptical scientific ray hyman who shows up in the film because later on later on in the game he looks at the whole program and says yeah none of this shows any any scientific value or any operational value for the cia and that's why the program was killed so you have to contrast that with the the crazy christians on one hand and then you have the crazy atheists on the other and that's right them what's their political agenda that's right and it's the it's the boat it's it's it's dogma on either side because it's it's you know it's about someone who thinks they have it all figured out and and unfortunately or fortunately science should be about what you don't understand and and every advance in the science throughout history has always been in the cracks that we have missed you know but but i want to mention about ray hyman even ray hyman who is the noted skeptic actually said there was something to the statistical data of remote viewing he just didn't say that it was useful to intelligence gathering that really gets back to the question that you were asking earlier which is what has happened since the 80s when this was on ted cobble uh and and the 70s when this was really pursued to now and i and i do think that a certain amount of that is uh is guided you know i i do think that this is a useful tool and i think that um if i was someone using this uh in a large way i certainly wouldn't want it to be known widely uh how useful and how good it is because that that would uh mean that just about anybody can use it you know and and uh maybe as an intelligence tool i might think that's dangerous i don't know wow i mean you just touched on a bunch of topics that could become entire interviews in and of themselves one of the things i thought was interesting about the movie on this level that i think i hope people will appreciate once they get into it is that this is a really a unique look at uh secret programs and how they're run because one of the questions i had for you lance is the conspiratorial guy that i am one of the first questions i had from the beginning is why do you think they released all these documents i have a hard time believing it's just for the vanity or the the interest of this sweet old man professor russell target says i'd like to i'd like to do this final tour and oh the cis says oh great well here's 60 000 documents that we never released before let's let the public know what really happened during the stargate program but what are your thoughts oh i have all kinds of thoughts on that um you know we think of government as a monolithic thing the government is coming after this or the government is hiding this uh government intentionally is very dysfunctional you know and and intentionally is very compartmentalized especially in the intelligence community you know if you don't want somebody to know about something you you just kind of sprinkle it around in in in different ways and you and you do what's called stove piping where where there's there's a very vertical amount of people that know about this and and they don't talk to other groups of other people in the intelligence community it's not like you know department of homeland security where they're trying to track everything that's going on it's exactly the opposite you know and and so even within the pentagon or even within cia or nsa or anything else uh you know they're not talking to each other and and they're not filing something in some centralized database where everybody can look at it um and in fact over time a lot of things are probably really lost because the people that know the information get old you know they they uh you know um you you lose stuff and um i really went into this thinking that there was this kind of monolithic force that had sort of protected this and and and worked on this and and by the end i realized um no the left hand doesn't know what the right hand is doing and and in fact when we interviewed ken kress who was the program manager that run the remote viewing program for a cia for the first a few years um he had never done an interview before he didn't know what he could talk about and what he couldn't and every question that we asked him and everything that he wanted to talk about he had to send off to cia to get approved and and when he told me that after like months of like back and forth with him and getting him you know to do the interview my heart sank because i went oh no they're gonna like nicks everything i'm not gonna be able to talk about anything you know this is gonna be the end of it and and um he uh got back this response from them and he sent me you know all of the the questions and the answers you know uh before the interview and i'm looking at this i'm going oh my god this is incredible i mean he's talking about like the cia running remote viewers internally against libya and like other countries and uh you know stuff that i didn't even know stuff that rustle didn't even know you know and and they released all of this data you know and so you got to ask why is like is this a plot like are they trying well is it what is your answer no it's not a plot it's it's it's because the guy at the desk at cia knows nothing about this and thinks this is like a joke i mean he's looking at this and going well i don't know anything about this sure you want to talk about it go ahead like you know like all that stuff's old news you know it's it's it's to a certain extent there's a um there's a loss of continuity of of how the information comes out now that's on the one hand now on the other hand um all of rustle's work originally was marked automatic do not downgrade you know classified like normally when things are declassified they automatically become public after 25 years you can request them if you know about them but in this case uh rustle said when he tried to get some of his work declassified he got back to stamp automatic do not downgrade you know you cannot declassify this so the only way to get it declassified was he had to go to politicians he had to go to people within the defense department uh and and basically start this like legal battle with his son where it went back and forth just to get basically the pat price stuff uh and and the ingo swan early stuff uh you know declassified uh you know looking at soviet weapons sites and you know stuff that was 20 30 years old by that time and um see but here's the part that kind of contradicts that and it's right out of your movie and it's the the ufo link yeah so you know fast forward now to where we're at now and lo and behold who's up on stage tom dilone who's right behind him how here's how lifetime player another thing your movie reveals is how was uh naval intelligence agency from the beginning and when how put off and rustle targ have a little bit of a split i don't want to exaggerate that it does seem like there are these two different guys there's the researcher rustle targ who's the mad scientist and there's this other guy who's also a researcher but at the end of the day is a lifetime player in the intelligence agency and knows how to work inside those circles so if this was part of the agenda that is to roll out the the ufo fake psi op disclosure that became in 2017 not that it wasn't fake not that those things really didn't happen but it seemed to be it seems to me to to a lot of people to be a very controlled kind of disclosure of an event that happened 10 years ago and they've been sitting on for all this time and yet they rolled it out like hey this is happening now it are you sure that maybe what they released to you guys wasn't part of a larger project of let's kind of push this stuff out there see where it goes i love your comment earlier that you just sprinkle it around a little bit and kind of see where it goes and then you deal with the pieces after after it's out there well number one any time you deal with the intelligence community or people who are lifelong you know people with security clearances it's always peeling away the layers of an onion you you never are going to know what they know because they're not going to tell you you know like the even even uh when ken kress got all those questions released he said there was a ton of other stuff that he wanted to talk about he wasn't allowed to talk about and and i've called him since and said hey can we talk about that and he hasn't you know uh ever received a a uh final response back on it so it's it's it's not that that um i i want to clarify my earlier statement because it's not that it's all just in disarray and nobody knows there's people that know um there's just uh you know it depends on what you're really talking about because there's there's other even more classified things that we still don't know i mean how at the time i interviewed him said that probably 70% of what they had done in the remote viewing program is still to this day classified and he couldn't talk about it so there's there's definitely a lot of that and and now i'm getting to the question of is this some sort of intentional disclosure in terms of the remote viewing program it was the opposite because what happened was that that russell basically got specific things that he had done officially declassified um the army guys that had been getting out of the army and going and talking about this stuff uh were reviled by the cia you know is is what i what i later learned the cia hated the fact that the army had a remote viewing program now while they were saying that they hated it they were still using it i mean they were the biggest customer of the army guys but but the head of the cia would publicly go before committees of congress and and berate the fact that they even had a remote viewing program they wanted it gone and and now in my own opinion and it's just an opinion as a lay person um i believe the reason they wanted it gone was probably because the army is too leaky you know like the guys getting out of the army are not uh career like lifelong intelligence agents you know like rock solid will always be there they'll get out of the army and retire and they want to make movies they want to uh you know go uh write a book you know they want to teach remote viewing you know there's a whole other sort of mode of somebody who's an army grunt who just learned how to do remote viewing versus a lifelong intelligence agent for cia and um that's that's one possible explanation but let me throw out another explanation and again this is something you touched on earlier is one of the things that your movie reveals is again the long time problems and challenges that uh a secret program like this faces and we're talking about joe mcconnicals standing up and saying we survived five administrations and that gets to this continuity of government kind of thing right it's necessary right you can't have a country's intelligence agencies spinning on a dime just because a new president is elected that would be disastrous too so these old timers who've been around for a long time they see the value in kind of keeping it close to the vest and not maybe sharing those stuff with people the way the constitution says it should so your film kind of shows how that plays out how these c i even the cia directors are saying rather kind of absurd things in light of what's really going on in terms of a lot larger picture that you're telling so isn't isn't that just another point of confusion well um number one you know the presidents and elected officials are always the last to know and and in russell target how put off you had would you say the cia director often falls in that category too because i would um yeah yeah i mean possibly you know i would say the cia director probably knows more than the president does um but but russell and how the two scientists that started this this program in the 70s were we're both already um vetted people working within established intelligence circles they were both the pioneers of lasers and things like that so they were they were both really very respected people within the intelligence community already and and they were respected within the intelligence community that had an official uh oversight you know like they were reporting to you know congress committees and you know people high up in government so there was an official channel already to work through that was overseen by elected officials so when they took their remote viewing experiments to uh people in government um there was an official channel you know to go through and um let me just clarify you're saying as opposed to as we do understand it now some programs that are just black yeah just black from not hitting these were not black programs these were these were secret programs but they had oversight and and uh if you think about something like remote viewing how easy is it to do remote viewing basically you close your eyes you imagine where your target is is is a hiding and then you write down what comes to your mind the first unexpected images that you get and that's it you know so so it doesn't take billions of dollars it doesn't take fighter jets but the government is uniquely placed to be able to find out if you're right or wrong you know like I can talk about what's going on in Russia but I have no idea if I'm right or wrong they do you know so so you can infiltrate the regular intelligence agencies by giving them information and and not telling them where it comes from say that again let's talk about that well okay so so let's say um me right now in this room I have a team of five remote viewers and and uh uh there's one contact from government that has reached out to us and I and I am I look at a bunch of locations he wants me to look at I send him that data no idea if it's right or wrong I may never know if it's right or wrong but he knows and he may be the only one that knows where that information he where he's getting it but then he's feeding it into the mainstream apparatus of intelligence and and uh so even the intelligence agencies themselves may not know who this guy's contact is but they're going to still use the information if it turns out to be useful and if it turns out to be useful once then the chances are it's going to be useful again and again and again and nobody has to know how that information is being uh uh gathered you know it's not there's no oversight there doesn't have to be and more over if I'm into the game of misinformation disinformation even within my agency which is often the case you know we'll talk a little story about kid green where he he admits that that you know there were constantly tests done against him to see where his information would go so the these guys are playing this disinformation misinformation and spread of information at a 3d chess level that we don't totally even get absolutely what you're saying and extended to that who knows you know what's going on absolutely and I and I am I am constantly confused by by people like uh you know kit and uh people who are lifelong intelligence agencies and you you have to always look at it through the prism that they're not telling you everything and that there may be an agenda and you know and and you just you have to but you can extrapolate out from that uh because there's enough public information out there and enough people that aren't directly in the intelligence community so so that you can kind of get at like what's real and and what's not um can you that's really the question because it kit green is a classic example of that lifetime player your movie is uh fantastic in the way that it captures kit green not just the information that he gives in the the film which is terrific but as you're alluding to you get a sense for this kind of wily fox who kind of knows so much more than he'd ever reveal and in a way is kind of playing with you like if you poke at just the right questions I might tell you more but if you can't bring the level of discourse up to that level then I'm going to divert you over this way do you want to talk about that any further there's a there's a distinct difference between somebody like Russell Tarr and somebody like Hal put off or kit green or or some of these other people in that in that Russell always was first and foremost a a researcher who was looking to publish you know he wanted to publish papers he wanted to uh get the word out about like what he was finding because what he was finding was world changing you know the the fact that that uh there is uh you know proof of something like ESP you know like there is something that exists that we don't understand that allows a person to see outside of space and time and and uh gather information they otherwise shouldn't have and so he became a lot more frustrated over the years because um as this got better and better use the amount of information going out got less and less and less right and now Hal and and Kit both were much more company men you know like like like you said Hal had a background with NSA and with and with intelligence Kit claims that he still consults with CIA and and other intelligence agencies so they're having an agenda that is not necessarily the best agenda to get good science out because it may not be their objective to get best science out I don't know I'm not in their their clique it really isn't even a matter of science at the end of the day and that's where I think you are I want to explore that with you personally in terms of spirituality and your understanding of spirituality because ultimately that's what we're talking about here when we talk about Russell Targ and we understand that he wants to make the world a better world in some way that we're supposed to connect with consciousness and being psychic which is okay I can go there but there is this natural tension with this other group that says yeah but you really don't want the Chinese sending an EMI weapon like they did off the coast of San Diego and wiping out your entire grid either and that's a reality and the Huns marching over the hills have always been a reality and at the end of the day this is this is Kit Green this is Hal Putoff if you will saying you care about your security more than you care about anything else and you care about your security more than you think you care about this idea of spirituality and consciousness and loving everybody so let me tell you right now I'm going to go ahead and protect you because at the end of the day that's what you want so let's continue to explore that because there is a reality to that that does transcend quote unquote science if you will yeah I mean I want to start by saying that though I believe that that these guys who are lifelong intelligence agents are not able to say everything and may have an agenda I've come to the conclusion that they all that that they do care about the science and they do care about this not being a a dying mode of study you know meaning that this work continues on that they have done and I'm talking specifically about kit I'm talking specifically about how put off you know people who may or may not still be doing intelligence work they still care about the work that has been done my take on Kit Green for instance is is yeah he cares about the science he cares about what has been done he wants it to be talked about it he doesn't want it to be talked about in a big way you know you know he doesn't mind if the research continues but let's not make it so big that that all of a sudden this becomes mainstream so then what do you think those guys are doing with the UFO disclosure thing well that's that's that's right where I was going to go you know the the my take on both them with remote viewing and them with the UFO thing and I am talking specifically about the people that I interviewed that were still sort of involved in these kinds of projects even by their own admission is that these are people who are in the on the inside but they're not really on the inside let me just throw this out because I always dying to get someone's opinion on this who's truly thought about it and studied it as you are it seems to me that there's this straight up political thing that's going on that too few people talk about there's a left right republican democrat if you will kind of flavor to some of this and that you know so this the UFO disclosure thing is clearly coming from the left and I don't say that to prejudice it in any way it just clearly clearly is it's Podesta and Clinton were originally the ones to that wanted to bring it out and they weren't elected so Tom DeLong who was hooked into that went ahead and brought it out anyway and Peter Lavenda who was part of that whole thing which is lifetime spook I don't know why anyone sees him other than just a life wait who is this who Peter Lavenda oh okay you know along with Tom DeLong you know his story is I called up Tom DeLong and it's like Tom is it really you oh my gosh well we have to figure this out the only place we can go is the CIA you know it's like it's just a kind of a manufactured story but it seems to be coming from one side of the political spectrum again not to prejudice it and it's interesting kind of the crypto speak that the other side brings out through Trump who is the current mouthpiece like him or not for that side who's saying yeah I'm very skeptical of that whole thing so they're kind of taking that angle and there's this we've all known for a long time and as your movie kind of again points out is there is this kind of a straight up political way to understand intelligence organizations particularly the CIA in terms of this right left and the agenda would seem to be for the UFO thing this kind of one world thing we need to you know it's global warming it's UFOs it's one world give up your rights don't think about you being this individual kind of country in person and then we have the other side saying no you should only think about America first America's the greatest kind of thing again I'm not trying to flavor that in any way I'm just saying in broad strokes that seems to be one of the the overlays on this and I'd love to hear anything you think about that well number one Trump will be the last person they ever tell he'll be the last one on the boat I think but oh but he has his own he has his own people who are telling him I mean well they're they're starting space force and we don't know why and all this kind of stuff yes but but you got to look at I think I don't know that it's left versus right as much as it is sort of logic versus superstition and and again you're talking about a sort of very mainstream level of oversight which probably doesn't exist because most or all of this work at this point is is no longer being done within the government you know like you know this Clinton tried very hard in the 90s with Lawrence Rockefeller you know this is a topic that's covered in another documentary that I'm producing and editing right now called the phenomenon with James Fox you know we talk all about how in the 90s they tried to get access to you know UFO records from the US government and you know they were told that nothing was there and in fact in a very kind of haphazard cover up kind of a way so it's it's not that they're being told something and it's being ignored it's that they're not being told anything which which then brings me back to like people like TTSA now I've thought a lot about like what is their agenda like what is there what are they trying to get at with this this whole disclosure thing and you know at first I thought well maybe there's some you know like working disclosure going on or this is something from the top and and now I actually do think like getting back to what I was just saying earlier this is more about people who know something who want to know more who are trying to push the subject that's what I think you know in terms of what they're doing now because they've been in the know but there's probably other people somewhere that either were associated with government or are that know a lot more you know and most likely they're working in the private sector you know and they have some classified contacts but primarily they're working outside of government because that's the only way that you can prevent this kind of stuff from leaking out because eventually elected officials are probably going to leak it out like there's going to be loose lips like something's going to happen so they keep this is so secretive that they keep all of this off the books completely I think that's probably what happened with the remote viewing program you know you you have it just off the books it doesn't even exist anymore within government you know there there's just so many layers to this but it does get interesting the the thing about the UFO thing that I want to explore a little bit further with you is UFO is a placeholder it's a placeholder in the public psyche that people can kind of wrap their arms around at this point the real question is non-human intelligence that's what we really care about and that's ET or whatever kind of spirit communication is connected with that and what that non-human intelligence might be doing with our government or might be doing with the population in general that's where the stuff really gets interesting I think and it even gets interesting from an intelligence standpoint you know one of the things that really kind of turned my head around this is a UFO researcher named Grant Cameron he's probably done more you know Grant yeah I love Grant Cameron yeah probably done more work than anyone on revealing the presidential understanding of UFOs throughout all these administrations going way back to Nixon you know and what he uncovered was the Wilbert Smith document the Wilbert Smith memo which was released into the Freedom of Information Act in Canada because he was the highest ranking official in Canada who was basically responsible for everything radio and outer space related so all the UFO stuff wound up on his desk and eventually he went to his bosses and said hey I need to go down there and see what the Yanks down there in the United States know so he goes down and he comes back and he writes this memo that is later truly released under Freedom of Information which is like a rarity you know that isn't just leaked out he says UFOs are the most secret most important thing in the United States government I met with Vannevar Bush who we now know is like super connected the right guy and he mentions all these other guys who are the guys that you would want to know he says it's more secret than the hydrogen bomb and then he reveals a tiny little tidbit that ties into your story of Third Eye spies and remote viewing and also ties into this larger story of non-human intelligence he says that there is a mental phenomenon associated with this contact experience and from there we have a greater understanding for MKUltra which maybe we'll have a chance to talk about sure which is all about mind control all about consciousness and what that could mean including the weaponization of that but I have to wonder that if this wasn't always one of the primary objectives of all this mental slash consciousness work is to try and understand what's going on with ET because contact with ET was made by the government a long time ago as revealed in the Wilbur Smith memo from the 50s and is now kind of being forced out in the latest you know to the Starz Academy release in December 2017 I know I've thrown a lot on the table there but no no it's good and I think that that's actually something I love to talk about is the is the psychic connection between ufology and everything else that I've just been studying and I have a lifelong interest in ufology too I love studying that stuff but what was so interesting to me through making Third Eye spies is that the sort of the weirdness the strangeness that happens whether you're dealing with something like remote viewing or whether you're even dealing with ufology and seeing UFOs and it's something that actually really gets missed very often which is that the phenomenon is not just seeing a craft it's not just seeing a being it's not just whatever it's it's a there's a general strangeness and sort of uptick in psychic ability uptick in just bizarre occurrences pk like all of this like very strange phenomenon that comes along with that territory and and that gets overlooked a lot by researchers because it's too weird you know like there's a in the movie that I'm doing with James Fox you know we have a photo of a guy from Australia that has it's the first it's a perfect image of a UFO that he shot with a Polaroid camera you know 50 years ago you know and it's part of the case that's in the in the film and what's not in that film is that this guy says I don't want anything to do with this phenomenon and it's not because of the prejudice or because people came after me or anything like that it's because after I took this photo all I did was take a photo all of this weird stuff started happening you know there was all of this pk stuff flying across the room there was he said that he said that in the middle of the night he got a bang on his door and he opens the door and there's a little person like a like a dwarf dressed in a boardy and an outfit and he's and he's berating them and berating the guy in some weird accent and he turns around and takes a few steps and then disappears right in front of his eyes you know it's like completely non scientific weird crazy stuff you know and and you hear this kind of stuff a lot from people who experience these kinds of things and it's never talked about because it's so weird and so crazy that it's just not dealt with but what it suggests is that um in general we're dealing with almost like cracks in the fabric of reality you know and and if we're going to accept that then we have to accept our own role in reality you know and and the fact that that we're probably a lot more than what we give ourselves credit for or a lot less in this physical manifestation and a lot more in our entire spiritual being which may be partially here and may be partially residing in some other realm that we don't understand. Well that's that's almost a given that's almost a given because it's the only way that you can um see what's happening on um you know the rings of Jupiter you know like like Ingo Swan did he predicted there was going to be ice rings around Jupiter when everybody thought that he was crazy and talking about Saturn it was a few months before Pioneer you know the first probe got there. The only way you could know something like that that no other human being on the planet actually knows is is if somehow that information is already in your head or you you have access to all information you know this is like what what Edgar Cayce would have called the Akashic record right you know so the the thing about that is that it suggests that our consciousness is non-local it doesn't just exist within our brains you know and this isn't a woo woo concept it's not a you know a religious concept or a spiritual concept it's just what's being borne out in in you know experiments that have been done you know is that there's no way that this could have been known unless it was non-local information that we are picking up from some other part of ourselves it's not existing in here. You know I had a chance to interview Kevin Day who was the top gun operator of the naval fleet oh right tick-to-clock sightings actually happened and he tells an exact account of what you're talking about in terms of these valet Davis effects from Jacques Valet and Davis wrote a paper on it you know when you say the Edwardian little person that shows up at the door that's Kevin's story is not that but it's he's tracking these UFOs and he's tracking them for days which is kind of an interesting part of the story because why would you be tracking these things for four or five days they're following you flying at 28,000 feet and you wouldn't report this to your superiors again there's some level of mind control going on here that we don't totally understand but put that side of the story away for a minute he's tracking them they finally send up Faber and these other fighter pilots to go check out the UFOs at the same time Kevin says he walks up on the deck and takes the glasses out and looks at the UFOs and exactly to your point at that moment something shifts in him and he comes home he gets off the boat in San Diego and he does his stuff but he winds up retiring from the Navy after 20 years and going through just all these strange synchronicities extended consciousness kind of things and he's really struggling too in the same way that if you study near-death experiencers they come back and it's not just all love and light it's a lot of depression struggling reintegration in with this what are these powers and abilities I now have so it's it's interesting that that happened to Kevin Day as part of the tic-tac citing but it's also interesting that the guys we're talking about who are the operational guys the guys who are rolling out this information and who are spinning it as department of defense has to protect us because these UFOs could be dangerous and that's clearly the narrative that's come out from that round of disclosure they know Kevin's story they know about this terror in the extended reality that you're talking about and they also know as your film points out and concludes with Edgar Mitchell who says hey doesn't this really transcend these little warring factions that we have on this planet and doesn't it suggest that we're all much more deeply connected and have a much deeper purpose so there is that tension that is unresolved and is left unresolved at the end of Third Eye spies in terms of these guys they understand that there is more yes yeah they do and and and I mean I think that anybody that studies this stuff there's there's basically two types of people there's there's people who have looked at the data and then there's people who have not looked at the data you know because if you've actually looked at the hundred years or more of of data in terms in terms of psychic functioning you're not going to question whether or not it's real or not you know you're going to question what the mechanism is you're going to question you know how it works but you can't question whether or not it's real you know once you've been exposed to it especially firsthand you know there there is a there there and and it's up to science to figure out what that there is you know and how it works and and and and move into that and I think that when you're exposed to something that is outside of your paradigm it it it's like it creates a crack in your own consciousness that allows more in and that can be very crazy making you know it's like I don't recommend somebody take up remote viewing without some sort of a a discipline and and you know oversight and you know you don't just want to do something haphazardly because it you can't take away somebody's worldview without giving them another one you know that's that's in one of joe mcmonagles books actually which I really love that statement because you know you're because you're going to fill those gaps with a bunch of misinformation and wrong stuff that that's just crazy making you know and in reality it's just part of who we are as human beings but you know you said something really interesting which is that kevin day for three days did not even report the the radar sign I knew he had seen it for four days I didn't know he didn't report it for for three days um but this is a very common occurrence and it's not I don't think it's some sort of like mind control from an et I think it's simply that when something is so far outside of your paradigm that you find ways to rationalize and and again and again and again we have to be reminded of sort of the more mysterious and and uh unknown and magical parts of life hey that's all good I love all that and that's right out of the positive vibe of the movie and Russell Tarr thing but it just ain't that simple okay now a guy who's been on this show who I really respect guy named Ray Hernandez who's done the first comprehensive survey of contact experiences and again Rudy Shields from Harvard collaborated on the work it's real research but Ray's personal story and it's a story you'll hear repeated over and over by people who've had contact experience is direct mind control by et so Ray is walking down the stairs while while witnessing his wife walking into an orb of light that later does this miraculous healing on their dog which is a long story I won't get into here but Ray remembers walking down the stairs and then having not a voice but an understanding in his head oh this is a bunch of baloney go back upstairs and go to sleep and he turns around and he goes back upstairs and he goes to sleep now that defies all logic right there's this tremendous commotion downstairs there's this huge strobe of light you're worried about you know all sorts of different things you walk down the stairs and then oh no there's you just hear that over and over again which again this is the tension between the expanded consciousness is great and we're all going to be as one and that there is some technology to consciousness that other people and or beings and or advanced human intelligence have mastered in a way that we haven't and even that is kind of hinted at in your movie which again Kit Green who is really far from a villain so I don't want to keep spinning him is that as he says hey one of the things that bugged me is we didn't just try and find the the best freaking people at doing this and rather than say so Russell's out there saying no this is a gift to humanity and being psychic means that we're all connected and Kit Greens like yada yada yada I want to find the guy who's the best on the earth at doing this so that I can operationalize it protect and weaponize so neither one is mutually exclusive neither neither point of view is is is mutually exclusive I mean are there things that are out there that we don't understand I mean I don't claim to know everything you know and and are there experiencers of of extraterrestrial stuff that have had really you know valid stories about stuff just like what you're talking about absolutely I don't just count anything because I don't know well they're in your movie right I mean Joe Joe says he experienced that in English Juan says they've been sure sure sure so the movie has to draw a point and it can't talk about everything but that stuff does send things in a whole other direction because they're viewing Mars a million years ago and saying there's a war on Mars and there's these giant beings that are et's and they're building all these structures and then you have people in in your movie who say if Ingo said it it's true because Ingo never made anything up and Ingo said that and so did Joe so what do you do with that well first of all you know remote viewing is always looking at potentials it's an imaginal skill you know and and a lot of times like for instance in Ingo's book Penetration you know he talks about seeing stuff on the far side of the moon noticing a present no presence noticing him you know and and and then and then looking there again and seeing nothing there you know so it's it's it's you know like I said reality is a lot more complicated than we give it credit for and and it's but the bottom line question to all of this becomes very simply I think as Einstein said do we live in a in a universe where we're victims where where there is basically no hope for us or do we live in a universe that's basically rooting for us I'm paraphrasing but you know the do we do we live in a potentially expansive universe that we have some control over and you know like I think that's really one of the fundamental questions of humanity is like you know like what is our place in this universe like you know like and I think that if we're figuring it out now and there are other cultures out there then they may have already figured it out and and there may be cultures with different agendas we don't know you know so you know who knows here's another fundamental question that we could kind of dig into as we move towards wrapping this thing up if there is this extended consciousness realm and if there are beings that have more power than we do should we seek to marshal their forces because that is what's at play here should I do the magic thing that's part of the shamanistic thing that you mentioned in Siberia but it's also part of the ET contact thing it's kind of are we are there space brothers out there or are there kind of the evil alien reptilians out there and do we want to somehow contact them and get them to help us in this world or are we should we not even play that game and transcend I think it's undeniable when we look at the fact that people are practicing ritualistic practices in order to marshal forces in this extended consciousness realm that just can't be disputed it also can't be disputed that the MK ultra program was not unwilling to try and marshal those same forces and it's also clear that in some cases that they've done they've done that and that intelligence agencies around the world including Britain and Alistair Crowley and Parsons on our side have have looked into that for the longest time as well so what about that what about using those forces for good or for evil well it'll sound really philosophical but I think that whatever you look for you'll probably find you know I think that I think that the only issue with that is that in a sense if you're looking to do harm you're really harming yourself you know and and it's like when you really start to kind of like understand where all of this kind of leads you philosophically I am inextricably linked to you you know everybody else is inextricably linked to me so when I start like you know trying to use my magical powers to harm someone in effect what I'm doing is I'm harming myself and usually that'll just bounce right back at you right I mean you know didn't work out too well for Hitler you know didn't work out too well for you know everybody else that seems to have tried that now now can you use psychic ability to create some sort of a negative effect in someone or lead them the wrong way or or whatever I think that that a coherent mind is probably the most powerful thing on this planet you know and and if you have a coherent mind nothing can touch you you know it's it's what you believe because all of this basically you know now comes down to belief systems and what do you believe is going to work and and if you choose to believe in really dark stuff then you know okay well that's the world that you're living in but I don't have to share it with you are all ETs like this benevolent thing that that are trying to help us I don't know you know but it would seem to me you know that just like human beings have different agendas you know probably somebody on some other planet would have maybe competing agendas as well you know again we just like we can't think of government as this one monolithic force we can't think of this phenomenon that includes psychic ability and ETs and all these other things as just one thing you know it's it's maybe aspects of the same thing aspects of consciousness in some way or form but I think at the end of the day this is all going to come down to how powerful do we realize that we are ourselves you know and and that's really what this is about I don't disagree with you and I think that's actually very deeply spiritual I do think it's hard for people to process that inside of one the country that we live in we're both we both live in the United States of America we both deal with the contradictions that we are in terms of we do put ourselves out there as being this beacon of liberty and truth and justice and yet we look at our history we particularly look at our history of some of the intelligence agencies and we know that's not our history and we know we've done the most horrible things in our hemisphere we've just tried to overthrow every government we could with with coups we've assassinated some of our own people we've done Manchurian candidate stuff we brought cocaine in and mass doses and we're at least turned a blind eye to the cracker I mean you could go on and on and on we're dealing with that we're dealing with our complicity in being who we are so again bravo I mean it's a fantastic film and it generates for anyone who's paying attention the film brings those questions to the fore because you pepper it with all these little tidbits Lance like I was mentioning about the guy who gets on the elevator and says yeah I know from my most trusted sources that all this work is still going on and you go what something that's debated over and over again and on the internet and all these channels and stuff like that so it's a great film and the dialogue could go on and has to go on but at least this is a Kickstarter for it yeah and I and I think that that's that's just it it's like you know if you if you can accept sort of the reality of the work that's been done then then it opens you up to at least consider what's possible like what's possible you know personally and what's possible collectively and also what's possible in terms of what your government is doing or or and or like I said most likely it's not really the government anymore it's most likely when when uh you know he said that and he said he said uh you know he'd be shocked and people weren't still doing it they're not doing it in government they're not doing it with any oversight anybody that has been publicly working with the government um that's not still very much uh in the middle of it um is no longer involved like I don't believe that Joe McMonagall or any of these other guys are are still you know um actively Is that even a meaningful distinction as as you just talked about yesterday I mean these guys are masters at at all that stuff so they set up some phony baloney CIA cutout organization that does it and then yes passes the information back I mean that's not an important distinction but the the the obvious point that I think comes through to you why would you stop doing this right how would you ever stop doing this you would never stop doing this right it would be irresponsible to stop doing this because you can't trust that everyone else is stopping doing it the Chinese well this this goes back to an earlier comment when we were talking about the uh the way that the thing is looked at the way this sort of psychic ability is looked at today compared to the way it was looked at in the 80s in the 80s they didn't really have their act totally together in terms of like what they wanted to use this for yet now we're talking decades later um and it's a much more marginalized subject and um it's kept to the sort of fringes because I believe um that's convenient for people who are actually using it to to sort of just say yeah we're not using this and we fooled around with it and it was like there was really nothing to it and and in fact you know you'd probably find that most modern governments are probably in some way shape or form using things like remote viewing and other kind of psychic techniques and probably trying all kinds of crazy things like you're like you said uh just to see what what sticks to the wall and what works you know because we know that there's something there and we don't understand it and when we don't understand something we want to understand it you know and then so that's what it becomes about and especially if it's useful you know and and so we don't know how far down the rabbit hole this goes and we can talk about that all day long but for me the much more important takeaway is what does it mean to you what does it mean to me you know like what does it mean to human potential you know like because that's that's really the only reason to to talk about it you know it's like if this stuff's been hidden since the days of the guy on top of the Mayan temple you know sacrificing victims or or you know the guy on top of the Mayan pyramid who's sacrificing human beings and pulling their heart out is playing a different game than you and I want to play he's not playing the be your greatest self transcend all of this and I think a lot of people struggle with why would I not play the game of getting what I want now in this life why I wouldn't play that why I would say the what you said the beautiful kind of spiritual non-dual you know to harm myself is to harm everyone why would I you know stab my left hand to get back at my right hand you know kind of thing we get that on one level but on the other on the other hand we do look back at that Mayan temple and we go no we get that this shit's been going on forever yeah but we've also get that people have been doing stupid things forever I mean and and it's like that you know you're you're you're talking about you know fear is a very very effective tool you know like it's a very very effective tactic of control you know and and and it's also you're talking about superstition and and when someone's what are we talking about in terms of superstition I mean so the Chinese roll into Tibet and they pull the Tibetan monks out of their out of their monasteries and they force them to have sex in the street with women and they do all this other humiliating Abu Ghraib kind of stuff that's because that's what they're saying they say we're we're fighting superstition and we're all looking and it goes no that's not superstition they are accessing and manipulating consciousness in the highest most profound way so be careful with what we call superstition I don't think I don't think meditation and consciousness manipulation is superstition no that's a good point and and it's not it's not what I mean is that you can and I didn't finish my my previous point there are real effects that you can find through consciousness and those effects are not explainable so what that leads to is a whole lot of ritual and a whole lot of other BS that gets involved in the way that probably has absolutely nothing to do with the effect but that's what superstition is I mean superstition is okay I saw an effect that I don't understand so now I'm gonna go uh you know get a lucky rabbit's foot and I'm gonna kill a cat and I'm gonna you know go do all these other crazy things to try to make it happen again and if you believe strongly enough that you want that to happen maybe you'll make it happen again but it's not because you went and got the lucky rabbit's foot or did any of these other weird things you know it's just because you build that into your belief system and and and what we're really talking about is the fact that uh human imagination is a very powerful thing and it acts as an enabler you know and and that's really what we're talking about I get you I get you but that's maybe not all we're talking about like I'm saying and that's the intriguing thing about et because I could talk about spirits all day long and people are just gonna know oh yeah superstition blah blah blah but it's not we know it's not because we know when you have a near-death experience you're counting spirits we know mediums are encountering spirits and we can test medium scientifically in the lab and that's real and we know we do experiments with DMT like Rick Strassman did and they're encountering spirits and they're encountering EET so but let's take spirits out of it because it throws everyone the wrong way let's say ET and I'll go back to my story ET is manipulating consciousness we have just too much evidence of that to look otherwise and we also know that the government like in Wilbert Smith memo they understood that they're playing in that realm all communication with ET is telepathic we don't know how to do that they know how to do that so I don't think we can immediately say all the superstitious stuff is superstitious stuff what if it's both what if it's our human nature to add this layer of crazy superstition stuff but there's also this hungry ghost element to it this extended consciousness manipulation element to it that we don't understand yet well take for example the act of a remote viewer looking at a target many times or for instance a whole bunch of mass consciousness looking at something at the same time like the global consciousness or or yeah global consciousness project heart math all that stuff well you know when there's a lot of attention placed or a lot of belief placed on something it gives it power you know so I literally could walk into a ancient Egyptian temple and if I'm with the right psychic maybe pick up on on you know some ancient deity that once inhabited that temple am I really picking up on that or am I picking up on the belief system of the consciousness that once highly believed that you know like that's that's the thing it's like if I'm like like okay I recently had a remote viewer call me and say if you have any property on the east coast you need to get out because there's going to be a huge tsunami wave and it's coming to the east coast and it's going sometime in this September of 2018 you know and and and I got really upset and I said I said this is bullshit because how many times have have remote viewers made these kinds of predictions other psychics other prophets other things made these do or die predictions they never happen the way that you think it's going to happen because no matter how much delete and by the way she said oh but no there was like 12 remote viewers and they were all really well known and they all came up with the same thing it's going to happen this time you know and I said well first of all you don't know if that is going to happen or if somebody had a bad dream that it was going to happen and then they contaminated your sample and and they put that into the remote viewing and now everybody's seeing the same thing and and even if you were seeing it even if you take something like tarot cards and you look at tarot cards and you're asking like gee is my is my girlfriend going to cheat on me and you put all these tarot cards out and and then the psychic says yes absolutely you know and then and then you go home and you break up with your girlfriend or you cause her to cheat or or for that matter even just the act of you looking at those cards now you as the observer have a vote in that and as to which timeline you're going to land on so so there's so there's all of these different kind of aspects to consciousness and it's intangible it doesn't you know really apply like when you look at an et are you really seeing an et or are you seeing something within a holographic matrix that's pretending to be an et are you just talking about energy you know and we have and we have you know evidence of that we have evidence of a eighth word trickster but it's the common term that everyone uses there's a deceptive aspect to that spiritual realm that we don't at all understand either right but but it's like we we can have an encounter with an extra terrestrial there's tons and tons and tons of stuff in the record of of actual material things that have been found actual material you know landing sites photographs you know scars like there's there's all of this stuff that's real but but again are we we can't say definitively what it is because we don't know is it really extraterrestrial we don't know because we don't know you know so but we can it's fun to talk about and and it's and it's interesting and I would probably posit to say that that if you're actually going to believe in this consensus reality we're in that it's a huge universe and we would be pretty dense to think that there's no other life in it but but but I will say that that even that is inextricably linked to our observation of it you know and and uh um you know I've I've seen uh UFO summoners who can sit there and do a meditation and then create like lights in the sky and stuff like that are they creating an actual ET encounter or are they doing something else you know we don't know more and more weirdness so folks we've gotten way off of the trail but maybe we haven't too much if you haven't seen Third Eye Spies watch it if you saw it a while ago when it first came out watch it again after this interview and maybe after getting to know Lance a little bit more and the deeper spiritual journey that he's on that you can tell from this interview and see if you don't see those threads coming out in the movie more and more Lance you've been tremendously generous in sharing your time with us tell us what else is going on we did talk a little bit about some projects that are just fascinating that you're working on what what can you tell us about what's coming up well um we're definitely going to be uh shopping a a tv series soon you know like that'll be uh you know one of the next things I'm working on um and uh as I as I mentioned I'm producing and editing a documentary with James Fox that he's been working on for about five years on the UFO phenomenon which which really is basically the silver bullet of the entire history of the phenomenon starting in you know 1947 to the current day and that'll be coming out sometime in the spring and it's actually getting a theatrical release it's going to be one of the first UFO documentaries ever to get a theatrical release so that'll be fun um and um and you know YouTube channel I was going to play that excellent trailer you did because again it's going to send people or reveal to people a whole different side of you that is interested in this kind of deep spirituality are you doing anything with that and and what are your interests along those lines absolutely I mean um I've actually I had just started to build up my YouTube channel again after several years and um and then I had to go off to uh you know produce this documentary um with James so I had to kind of stop but um I definitely plan on building that and I definitely plan on sort of making that a a really interesting space to talk about human consciousness and to talk a lot about these different kinds of phenomenon that we see from remote viewing to the UFO subject to um sort of spirituality to cutting-edge science you know um I have so many friends who who are basically you know just really on the cutting edge of uh science that I would love to sort of talk more about and you know get on there so so yeah I definitely plan on building that it's um the uh the channel is called Waking Universe TV um or you can just search my name Lance Mungia M-U-N-G-I-A is my last name and uh you'll find the YouTube channel and I do plan on sort of becoming much more regular with like the videos that I post um soon I'm trying to just kind of getting settled settled in here well you you just look like a working movie maker which is awesome that's who you're supposed to be well it's been just terrific having you on and again congratulations on this work and certainly we'll be keeping an eye out for anything else that comes out of uh Lance Mungia's little uh lab there oh one other thing I want to mention there's a possibility that my first film Sixth String Samurai may be uh coming back to theaters believe or not you know it's like over 20 years old and uh has absolutely nothing to do with any of this topic matter that we're talking about but but it's really kind of a fun kind of a cult movie uh you know visually interesting kung fu film and um there's been some discussion about them uh re-releasing it so uh so that'll be fine that's on Amazon you said right now is it on Amazon Prime too um and so is Third Eye Spies you can get that on Amazon Prime uh you can also find it just on regular old Amazon if you don't have Amazon Prime or you know Vimeo iTunes uh really anywhere uh digitally worldwide Third Eye Spies is now available and you can get DVDs or Blu-rays if you want them directly from my website which is ThirdEyeSpies.com you can go there and um you know join us on Facebook also ThirdEyeSpies and I really appreciate you giving me the time for the interview it's been a fascinating conversation