You can now follow me on all my social media platforms to find out who my latest guest will be and don't forget to click the subscribe button and the notifications bell so you are notified for when my next podcast goes live. We're walking along and he just literally grabs me, he's got my hair and he pulls me down this alleyway and I thought, here we go.    And let's be honest, Peter Files are the worst people on the planet, aren't they?  He came over as a very big gentleman and he was like, hello. I said, hello. Anyway, I said, what do you want? And he went, dry anal. When I was there for two weeks, I couldn't believe how many men in white vans, like, well, we saw all the way out the window and the girls are in school uniform. I was like, that's bad, that. So it was actually the unit, the Peter Files unit, were talking to this guy online, but they were getting suspicious on Skype. He was getting suspicious that he was a copper and he said he wanted a call, a video call on Skype. So they called me in and said, you need to speak to Mike to read the transcript so I knew what the conversation had been and speak to him and the conversation had been horrific, like it was disgusting. The dad killed the mum, hung himself and left the baby, the baby star to death. That was not the best scene, man. Boom, we're on. And today's guest, we've got Danny Brooke. How are you, Danny? I'm good, thank you. Thank you for having me. Yeah, thanks for coming on. You've just released your new book, which will plug straight away. The Girl for the Job, Undercover Copper. You went quite dark, prostitution, escort and catching nonsense. That stuff, but fair play for you to do it. I'd imagine a lot of people wouldn't step forward to do those sort of jobs, but to take some guts, so fair play. Where can people buy the book, first of all? I think everywhere's got it, actually. I know a lot of people have got it on Amazon, but I know Wardstones have got it. All bookshops have got it. A little independent one in Chinkford, where I used to live, has got it. So I think everywhere. I think in America it's not out until later in the year, but I've been sending copies over to North America because they're like, can we have it? Can we have it? So I've been just posting it for them. Yeah, congratulations. Thanks. I don't know why they put my face on it, though. That's bold as well, though, undercovered copies on. They've wanted their face cut out and stuff. I do understand that, but I just think if you've done it and you're talking about it, you've just got to do that. You could do it or not do it. Yeah, all hog. But when the publisher sent me the picture, I just laughed. I said, I look such a moody cow in that. And I'm actually not like that at all. I'm actually quite nice, but I look like I'm right. Before we get into all the nitty-gritty, I always like to go back to the start of my guests, but get a bit understanding about you, where you grew up and how it all began. So I was born in my land. So I'm a real cockney, which as you probably tell from my accent. And then my parent did this a bit of a funny one. My mom's from a massive family. She's the youngest girl and they're from Sicilian heritage. So you can imagine they've got their own world of dealing with things. They don't need the police. They police themselves. My dad was a copper and my mum and dad met when he was on the beat and I was born eight months later. Yeah, I was little. It wasn't supposed to happen, obviously. They got married and then she had me earlier than she should have. She hadn't told her family. I was a bit of a mess. And of course they... That marriage didn't last very long. And they got divorced and then we moved from my land. We actually moved to Plasto and then we moved from Plasto to Dagenham, which was not very nice. So I grew up in Dagenham with my mum. I saw my dad and stuff at weekends, but I grew up predominantly with my mum and my stepdad. I went to school in Dagenham, which if you know Dagenham, he's not the nicest place on the planet. And that was it. I was average at school. I wasn't the cleverest. I wasn't the silliest, just average. I've got a couple of siblings, but I wasn't very close with them. I actually only really, really close to my sister now she's had a baby. This baby has changed all of our lives. We're really tight now because he's just the best thing ever. And then when I was 15, I was at a party, got attacked by some guys who thought it was a great idea to...  He didn't die, thankfully. And then I don't remember any more than that. I witnessed all of that, but I don't remember any more than that.  But it was the wrong place at the wrong time. It wasn't me. I was just there. It would have been anyone. And that was my first encounter, really, with the police. Even though my dad was a cop, I didn't... I'm not going to join the police because my dad said, that's not cool, is it? Where I lived, no one thought the old bill was cool. Like, it was not... They weren't not cool. We all had respect, but we'd never want to be a copper. And that was the first encounter I had with the police. So I thought... I thought they were really good. Like, they were really kind to me. Like, really, really nice. And I didn't think at the time I want to be a police officer, but obviously something subconsciously, I was happy with what they were doing. Went to Crown Court with the suspects. And then they went away. I carried on with the score. Did my A-levels. And my dad said, there's a police recruitment driver for police... A female police recruitment driver I think you should apply. I was like, I think so. I'm going to be a lawyer. And he was like, no, you're not. I think you should apply. And I applied. And then that was it. You thought you were not going to a copper? A copper. And I didn't even plan it. But you'll see that throughout my whole life. I don't plan anything.  Back in the days, well, obviously copper. Nowadays people understand it. I get a better understanding of the police force now. They actually speak to them. The trauma, the pain, the misery that they go through. The doors they have to go through to help save children. And basically, listen, there's bad and good everywhere in the world. We get it. There's corrupt coppers everywhere. There's corrupt people everywhere in life. We know. But the misery and the torment that a copper has to go through is unreal. And I understand it more what they have to go through on a daily basis. The things they have to see, the dead bodies, kids dying, kids getting raped. That's some dark, dark stuff.  If you're good, then you want to genuinely want to help people and clean up the streets. I'm all for it on their back. You're mowing your percent.  Then was it okay being a girl and your dad a copper? Or did you get a lot of stick? Nothing. It wasn't in secondary school. It was in primary school. I remember being in that juniors. And I remember being quite happy that my dad, I thought he was really cool. Because I was little. Not when I got to secondary school. I just didn't tell anyone. But when I was at primary school, I remember saying my dad was a policeman.  I called him a piglet. But I wasn't offended. I used to just think, those boys as well.  I wasn't bothered. But yeah, I remember being called piglet.  But I never told anyone at secondary school there's no need. So I don't think it would have gone down well in high school. How did your dad handle it when you got attacked? My dad's the calmest man on the planet. My mum nearly got nicked. So when we got all taken to hospital, they turned up, the suspects turned up at the hospital, which is ridiculous. Why?  Honestly, it was completely unprovoked. It wasn't just us three. There was more people that got attacked. They were all drunk, drugs, and they just went kicking off with everyone in the street. But my dad's calm. So he was like, because he's a big job, he could just process it and handle it properly. And I remember he said to me, Dan, they need to take your clothes off. And then are you not going to like them doing that? And I said, oh, why? He said, because there's a lot of blood and I don't know where it's coming from. I think you could have been stabbed. I was like, I don't think I have. He was just like, they need to take your clothes off then. And I was like, oh, all right. But my mum was like a banshee going nuts. She was like chasing the guys around the hospital. And the copper said to my mum, you're going to get nicked if you carry on. She was like, I'm not having this. She's from East London. She turned proper East. But yeah, my dad's fine. He's the one I go to for advice, because I know he'll think about it and not just shoot from the hip. And he'll just become relaxed. What about the family fallout? How did everybody end up falling out? Brothers and sisters, because of the divorce, a lot more to that. I don't think there was any reason. My mum and dad had me and they had my brother, but my brother's a mummy's boy. And I'm a daddy's girl. So me and him just, and we're really different, like so, so different. People went to school, the teachers would say, Brooke, is your brother Mark? And I go, he and I go, wow. We would never have guessed that. Like nobody would believe we were siblings ever.  No. And everybody says this as well. I'm the girliest blow-dryer's, nails, like ever. But I do like football and I do like a beer. And that's what my husband says. He's like, you're the girliest boy I know. Like you're amazing. My sister's a half-sister, so my mum and my step-dad had my sister. And then my dad and my step-mom had another girl sister. Me and her are actually quite close and everyone always says, oh, God, you two are like two peas in a pod. You're so similar. You look alike. But we didn't live together growing up. So I only saw her weekends or school holidays and stuff like that. But since my other sister with my mum's side has had a little boy, he's just brought all the family together. It's madness. Because I'm quite independent. My mum will try and ring me and I'll just WhatsApp her. And it drives her mad. Because I don't want a phone call. I'm like, mum, I don't want to talk on the phone. I'll just WhatsApp you. I'm fine. I'm alive. Don't worry about it.  But my dad's like that. He doesn't ring his family either. He's a text though. He'll just say, are you OK? I'll say, yeah, that's it. So you see a lot of yourself and your dad then? I think so. I always looked up to my dad. Like really, I thought he was so cool. Like he had a nice house, nice car. My step mum's really nice and always been so kind to us. Yeah. I really think my dad's really cool. All my mates used to fancy him, which was weird though. They always say he looks like Jeremy Kyle and it really upsets him. So see, what's the process for a woman to get into the police force? I've had a lot of men on. Back in the day, it was different heights, different weights, all that. Everything's changed now. What's the process for a female? When I joined, they were looking for females. So I think it was probably a little... I hate to think I got the job because I'm a woman, but let's be honest. Did your dad help? With the application process. Yeah. But then when you go there, you still have interviews. You still have to do all the tests and then they tell you, if you have to pass that bit, then you can go and study at Hendom because I think it's 18 weeks we did it. I didn't know how I got through that because I was sat in a room as an 18-year-old thinking I didn't have much life experience, but actually everyone else in the room had come from little villages and places out of London, so I suppose growing up in London and Essex, you live more than you would normally live and see things that you don't normally see. And women were getting turned away that day and I'd been told I'd passed and I was like, that's a bit weird, that. And my dad was like, just take it. Don't worry about it. I said, I think they've made a mistake. He was like, just stop it, just go. And then they said it's an 18 month waiting list before you can go to Hendom. And I said, yeah, whatever, that's fine. And then on the following Sunday, I got a phone call from them saying, someone hasn't turned up, can you take their place and come tomorrow? And I was like, yeah, I'll come. But I had none of the care. I didn't have any, there's like a long list of equipment you need. I had none of it. And I just went and the staff there are police officers, they're the trainers. And they were like, where's your this? And I go, oh, but I only got the call yesterday. And they were like, they didn't care. They were like, it's not my problem. And I was like, oh, and so quickly I learned that there's no excuse. You've just got to like say sorry and remedy it quick. But I thought that was a reasonable answer. I'm like, well, I only found out yesterday. And he was like, I remember his name, Staff Lyset.  He was one of them. He really hates, there's me and my two best, we're still best mates now. We were in the same class at Heddon. And he hated us but secretly loved us.  But he knew he was secretly like. But at the time we were scared of him but like now I think about it. And I'm like, we actually had him right around our little finger. What was your first day in a bit like? I thought it was a bit boring the first day because when you get that onto your bar. So from after Heddon, you then get to pick your borrower. And I went to town Hamnitz, which is where I'm from.  They're like, let's go and walk around and stop some cars. And I'm like, I don't want to stop cars. I want to like be in the car running around like nicking people and not attending like calls or from an emergency. You know that call. And that did happen but it takes, I didn't realize I was just impatient. It takes a good number of weeks before they let you do any of the call stuff. So why did you pick your own borrower though? Was that not being more dangerous because people knew you or would it be better because people knew you? I picked, I think I only picked it because I knew how it's such a good borrower that you've got extreme wealth and extreme poverty like literally side to side. So I knew it'd be busy and it would be a lot. I know I'd learn a lot. And I just thought why not town Hamnitz. I still have family that live there but they're older so they wouldn't give me grief. All my cousins are out there now so that's fine. Did you ever knock anybody you knew? No, but I did see people. This is so sad. My favorite, I can't say favorite uncle but he's my favorite uncle. He's no longer with us but he used to have a shop in Bethnal Green and my colleague who was at Hendo with me she said, I've got to tell you something. I was getting changed. I said, what's happened? She went, I think I nicked your uncle today. I said, what's uncle Stephen? She went, yeah, I said, why? She said, because I'd stopped the van and he wasn't named on the document he had. And I was just like, is this his van? Is this his shop? And she was like, yeah, I did let him go after. I de-arrested him but I did arrest. I said, did you cuff him? She said, yeah. I was like, and he's like the nice, like he's the one that I would never be worried about getting arrested. But yeah, she arrested my good friend, arrested my uncle. Yeah, madness. I feel so bad for him because he's so nice. It's funny man that I always got with coppers in the house and coming in and coming through with those family members myself. I always had the vibe, even if you were getting surveillance and that, you know. Yeah. I don't get that feeling with you. I've been a copper. Yeah. That bubbly, good energy, kind of wee bit hyper. You never see that. Majority coppers are quite door faced. Yeah. They're quite serious.  Did you think you'd get away with an extra wee bit more because you had that personality? 100%. Yeah. Female thing. And with the deployments I did, it would need to be a female anyway. Like a man just wouldn't, it wouldn't work. And similarly, there were jobs that were set for men that I just wouldn't be good for. But, and it sounds really bad saying this, but men are, I was, I was a lot younger then and I did worry about three stone less than I weigh now.  It doesn't draw some, you're fine.  But it's a good card to play on. It's a good one to have to make everybody feel at ease. And that's when people's cards spin down. That's why I'm so good at my job.   So what was your first arrest like? Were you nervous? Were you buzzing? How does it work? The first one, it was rubbish. It was for theft of a car stereo. Yeah. Yeah. It was really bad at the time. Obviously I was really happy. I just really wanted to be, I wanted to go like, and that was what I was there to do. I wanted to get bad people off the streets. This guy, he was bad actually. And he's, he was the bane of my policing career at Tower Hamlet. Our paths crossed quite a lot. And he was not a nice person, but it was a car radio Nick. And I wanted, I thought I was always going to get a little bit better than that. But yeah, I was nervous. And I remember, you have like a tutor with you and he was such a lovely man. And I'd be going, oh, I'm doing this one. Yeah, you're fine. And I'd be like, what about that? What do I need to do now? And I'll just ask him all these questions, probably driving him mad. But it was just a Nick for a car stereo. Like if you go to Brick Lane, there's hundreds of car stereos. Well, not now probably, but there was then. It's like, it's probably a bit of an easy, an easy one. Do you phone your dad and say that I've just got my first arrest or was it just a case on to the next one? No, I didn't ring him actually. But I did obviously tell him, but this, oh God, I sound so old.  I probably didn't even pick it up for the day. Like, you know, and it's, you just, I think I just got a camera phone. So it was a long time ago. So what's the process then from you to do, we're only beat to then go on undercover? How long did you have to do? You're supposed to do a minimum of two years before you can apply to do the covert work. But I fell into that as well. My governor was a really good friend of my dad's, really nice guy. He's actually does body recovery now. He's left the police and he's got a company that teaches body recovery in disasters. He's an incredible man, like one of the best policemen I've ever met. And he said to me tomorrow night, we've finished a late sense of two to 10 and he's tomorrow, Dan, it's night duty.  I said, yeah, yeah, I'll come in. What are we doing? I don't know what's going on. And he said, you and your colleague are going to go out in, I think you need to say colleague, he said his name, patrolling, playing clothes. And I was like, oh, all right. And I thought, this is it. Like, this is me. I'm undercover. And I had no clue that there was a unit that was undercover. And this is just plain clothes. I had no idea that there was a difference. So that night, me and my colleague went out. We were living the dream. Fought we were like Cagney and Lacey in this car. But what we, I didn't realize because I was young in service. I really didn't really fully still understand that the criminals are really sophisticated and they know what they're doing. And they obviously saw us before we saw them do every single car registration plate of all the cars that are marked. They knew everything. So if they saw our car and they had watches and so our success wasn't great when we was in the car. And I said to him, why don't we walk? And he was like, what? Like coppers don't know coppers want to walk. And I was like, let's walk. And he was like, I don't think so. I was like, come on. I said, look, if it's rubbish, we should get back in the car. And he went, oh, all right. So we got out and we was walking around this estate. And obviously we know, we know where they're dealing, but we can't get close enough. But now we're in plain clothes and we're walking a night. So that's not expected. We walked into the stairwell and we nicked some of the possession of intent to supply. He was serving up. And I was, I was a little bit excited because the evidence was there. There's like, that's just what it is. And he had loads on him as well still. He only obviously just started his shift. And I thought we'd done a really good job. The governor was happy. Our arrest figures were going really high because we were getting up close and personal with people. And then we did that for a little while. Only on night duties though. There was no, like days are just too busy. Like you can't justify that. But he obviously got a tension from, we call them the senior management. It's questionable at the moment. And I got a phone, another phone call saying, don't come in tomorrow. From the same governor saying, don't come in tomorrow. You need to go up to the yard. You've got a meeting at this floor this time. Wear a suit. And I thought, I'm getting sacked. I thought I pushed my luck. Because we were, we were, we were nicking people, not nicking around. But like really the evidence was so good because we were up close to them. They were just bang to rights. Like it was unbelievable. And I thought, yeah, I've pushed my luck. I'm out. And I kept saying to him, what for? He was like, just go. Obviously I told you just go. And I was like, okay. I got to the yard. And I'd been to the yard for briefings. But when I got to this floor, it weren't what I'd seen before. There was no open plan office. And I knocked on this, this lovely man came out and he was like, I won't do my Scottish accent because it's pretty bad. But he said, ah, Danny. And I was like, hello. He said, come in. And I went in and he was like, do you know why you're here? I was like, I don't know. And I remember like this, my next, it was a next suit. It was awful. But all coppers have a next suit. And I was all sweating because I was nervous. And he said, we want to talk to you about doing the covert course. And I was like, oh, yeah, I'll do it. I still had no idea. And I didn't know there was different levels. So I started at the bottom level. And then there's one more above it, which don't happen very often.  We'd love you to do it. So I said, yes, left, run my dad. I did run my dad there. And I said, I've just been asked this dad. And he was like, you're joking. I was like, serious. And he was like, you need to do it. He said, but you do know if you fail, that's it. Like if you fail that course, that's you. You can't do it again. Why? Because you'd know what you had to expect so you could plan for it. So they can judge you straight away if you're ready for it or not? Yeah. It was honestly, it was hardcore. It was mental. I have the paranoia on that course. I was like a psycho. I was just like, they're watching me. I don't know where to look. I don't know how to see it. Because they're watching everything you're doing. And I realized quite quickly, this was not a normal course of nine to five or eight to four. This is a 24-hour course where you're being assessed for 24 hours a day. And I'll sleep with the light on because I thought, what if they're watching through the window to see? When we switch our lights off. So I slept with the light on because I didn't want them to think I was weak, which is ridiculous. Like I taught on the course after and I know that's not what happens. But at the time I was like, it's a scared little, I don't even know what. So what, you're in a house? So what's the process? What can you talk about the course? I can talk about some of it, but only what's Google-able. So you're there for, you're at a site for a period of time. It's probably not the same now. It's probably changed completely. But you do, it's residential. You do stay there. And there's lots of role-playing, lots of lots and lots of horrible situations. Bit of alcohol. Lots of chats, friendly chats that are not friendly. I remember there was one person, they go around and have a, there was 11 of us at start. They go around and, I know they've done loads of work on you as well. They know everything about you. And this is before the days of open source really because no one had social media. I think some people probably had Facebook or MySpace, but there was no social media. And they asked you what drugs you've done and everyone's like going, I've done this.     But there was one and she just went for it and she was like, I've done that. I've done, I was thinking, oh, never saw her again. But she just disappeared after that. We didn't see her again. But yeah. They were saying to me, but you live near Rompford, like you must have been out all the time. Go down faces. And I was like, yeah, yeah, go to faces, which is true. I did go to faces, but I always drove because I didn't really drink. Never done any drugs in my life. I bought plenty, but I've never done a single drug in my life because I would definitely die. And they were like, I don't think so. And I was like, no, I'm not lying. I just genuinely haven't done any drugs and I always drive everywhere.  And I was like, I'm not. And they were like, but you're from Rompford. And I'm like, well, not everyone from Rompford's a slag. You probably are though. And I was like, I'm not. Like what? Yeah. And it's just intense. And there was one actually, there was one scenario. This is really bad. I was talking to someone about this the other day and it made them laugh. There was a scenario where, so when you are deployed for real, you are given a set of instructions from a senior officer. And it's basically you do's and don'ts. Like you're not allowed to do this. You're not allowed to do that. And it's a, I've covered an exercise for them. And they sign it to say they've read it to you. You sign it to say you understand what they've said to you. So on this particular role play, they got this guy in and they told me he was from the Portuguese police and he was here to see how we teach covert ops training in the UK. I had no reason to disbelieve them. So he was acting as my SIO. And he was a good looking man, very handsome. And like, don't forget I've been on this course for a long time. I've not showered the whole time. I've not cleaned my teeth for the whole time. I look like an absolute mess. And I stink. So do you know like in Big Brother when you go, oh God, would she really fancy him? Or would he really fancy her? It was a bit like that. I've been in this bubble and I'm thinking he's a 10. Like he is for proper sort. And so I'm not listening to him. I'm just looking at him. So we both signed our document and if I've gone down my role play and then there's a exercise where you're in court and my colleague went up and gave her evidence in this role play. And then it was my turn. But as soon as I got in that ball, I knew I'd written the wrong date. And it was obviously a test. I was like, oh shit, I've written the wrong date. I put the wrong day. I put today's date, but obviously it was meant to be yesterday. So I just owned it and said, look, I've written the wrong date. I'm human. Everything else in my statement is correct, but I have written the wrong date. And they tried to give me a bit of a hard time over it. I said, I'm not lying. I would, I'm not blaming anyone else. This is on my shoulders. This is me. I've made an error. And then the guy said to me, the cop has said to me, why do you think that you wrote the wrong date? I couldn't say because I was like eyeballing baby boy from Portugal. And I was like, oh, I think I've just been very busy. I'm not too sure. I don't know, it's because I'm stressed and this geezer's walked in. And he went, do you think it's because you were staring at so-and-so, whatever his name was? I said, absolutely not. And I said, all right. Well, I hate to disappoint you, but he's not from Portugal. He's from Haringey. And he came in and he was like from Haringey. And he was like, all right.  He was a police officer. And he was just there to get me. And I was like, that's really out of order. Funny. Because I did fall for it. That's how dark it goes. But I did fall for it. Yeah. I totally fell for it. Look, it's funny now, but I was so annoyed with myself after and I thought that's me out. I'm out. But I did, I wasn't. Because they said I pulled it back because I took it on my own shoulders and didn't try and blame anyone else and just said, it's me. See, when you're doing that sort of course then, if you get body language experts and stuff in place as well, looking at you, how you handle situations, movement, everything, little tics. Do you have people in that course as well? Looking at every scenario? Not everyone, but there were people that would do it. But then the cops, there are a lot of their workies to check that as well. So some of them, you did like the final exercises, there was people there just to make sure you wasn't given like too much away. And I took, as you say, from my hands all the time, which is probably not a good thing. But yeah, the whole time, you're just being assessed the whole time. What about the no-shivering and brushing your teeth? Why is that? A lot of the scenarios are like crack, heroin. So if I don't get me wrong, it's only now I've done this work, I understand there are functioning heroin users that you would never know. There are functioning crack users who are smart, working in a city, particularly crack. But obviously that doesn't fit the narrative of what people think. The police don't generally go for them. People, they're going for the street, don't they? Yeah, it's easier to target someone. So when you pass the course, what are you thinking then? I didn't really get it still. I was still thinking, they won't ring me to do it, because I still had my day job. But then I realised quite quickly that day job, I didn't do it very often. It was so rare. I did want my first deployment though, because the guys that were teaching me were so cool. They were proper, but I thought they were really cool at the time. I was like, I want to be like them. And there was one lady and she was much older. And she's like, she's no longer with us, but she was like a legend in that world. And I thought, yeah, I want to be part of their crew, because they were cool.  That doesn't happen. So I did want my first job, but I didn't really think it was going to happen. And then I got my first job literally very, very quickly. Why did you always do it yourself? I just don't, I don't doubt myself. I just think, like, that's why that happened to me. I'm not, I don't actively seek it. Like if I, if I want something, I will give it like a thousand percent. And I would like pull myself to it. But I was back then I was quite like, oh whatever. I was quite laid back and easy going with stuff. I wasn't like now I overthink everything. I worry about everything, but then I didn't. I was just kind of like, they weren't being so it's fine. Whatever. But I did. And it was quite quick and... Did your dad have a supporter? Kind of say maybe stay away from it. Because as a dad, feel that. Yeah. Was he supportive of, I don't imagine he'd be supportive of anything you've done, but did he support that decision to go undercover? Yeah, he thought it was really cool. Did he? Yeah, he was like, this is pretty big. This is a big deal. More money? No. Why not? They just don't, if it's over time it's more money. But no. You get payments for little things here and there. So the course up from mine, which I planned to do, I did and end up doing, they get a little bit more, but it's really not going to change your life in any way whatsoever. But now she's a part of your... It is a certain type of person that does it. When I look back and I think back to the people in my team, they were not regular cops. What makes a good undercover cop? Confidence. Being able to think quickly on your feet. Just being able to adapt into any scenario as well, because obviously you go there with an idea of what's going to happen. It never happens how you think. So you need to be adaptable quite quickly. And just not then overthink things. Obviously I do that now instead. I've saved it all up and I just use it all now. That's a murder's instinct. I drive myself mad. So what was your first job like and you eventually got it? What were you thinking? I should have left. I should have left the police at that point. Why? My first job was a disaster. I was embarrassed, but I talk about it in the book. All they said to me was, can you go out in Tottenham and establish the supply of Class A? That was the intelligence. When I thought that was normal, I didn't understand that in a job actually, they might have a phone number, an informant might have told the police something they can act on. I didn't realise that actually just going out to establish it, that's not normal. And actually the unit probably wouldn't have allowed that job to run if they knew that was it. And I remember just sitting at a bus stop thinking, well of course there's Class A, we're in Tottenham. But I don't know where to go. I've never bought drugs in my life. I don't know what I'm doing. I've had this bus stop like, I don't know what I'm doing. And there was a bookies and I just thought, oh go in there. I went in and obviously, they're not the nicest of places. I'm just sitting there for a little bit and there was a geezer in the corner and I thought, yeah, he's definitely a user. Which sounds awful now, like my whole life I should say, my whole life I thought, if you do drugs, you know it's wrong, you shouldn't do it and you get caught that's on you. But actually my opinions have changed drastically since leaving the police. But at that time I thought, you, so I need to nut into him. I need to get into him. I just said to him, not this accent. I know this is bad, but it got worse. My usual boy's not about. His phone's off. Have you got a number for me? And he went, yeah, yeah, yeah, girl. I can help you. And I thought, oh, amazing. That's easy. He said, but if I take you there, will you chip me off? I went, yeah, yeah. I didn't know what he was talking about. And then on the way he's chatting to me about, he's got this jewelry, he's burgled a house the day before and he's got this jewelry, did I want to buy it? And he's showing me it. But my copper instinct was like, oh, yeah, I need to buy it because it's evidence. And then I was like, but then I won't have enough money for the crack. So I was like in this pool between burglary and drugs. And then I realized as well, we want me to chip him off. He meant give him some drugs. And I was thinking, well, that means I'd be supplying him the drugs and I'm not allowed to do that because then I'd be dealing. That's how my brain used to work. We got to this address. He spoke to the dealer at the door. The dealer went back in, went to the front room window, lifted up the neck and with another guy, they looked me up and down and went like this. And I just assumed they were giving me the nod of, we'll serve her up because she looks all right. She doesn't look like a copper. He's come back. So give the guy from the bookies the gear. He's chipped it off. And he took the piss. He took a lot, but at this point I don't care. I'm just so happy to nearly have the drugs. Me and my guy from the bookies have said our goodbyes and I've started scurrying off back up the street. I'm so happy. I've got crack in my pocket and I'm buzzing. I'm so happy that I've got the gear.  I was like, hello. And he was like, I'll walk you. And I'm like, walk me where? And he said, I'll just walk you. And I was like, I don't need you to walk me. I can walk myself. And then he said, where's the, where's the gear?  I said, I plugged it. And he was like, nice.  Like you need to go. And he was like, no, no, no. I'm going to walk you in it.  He's massive. And he was like, no, no, no. He won't beat me.  Like I don't want you here. And then we're walking along and he just literally grabs me. He's got my hair and he pulls me down this alleyway and I thought, here we go.   And he was like, no. He said, I don't want, I don't want that.   How am I getting out of this? I'm not, this is not supposed to happen. I've gone from being like the biggest hire I've ever had in my entire life because I've just bought crack and I've successfully bought from this job. And now I'm in an alleyway with the dealer and he's trying to, he's literally, I'm doing his trousers and he's got me and I can't move. And I'm like, I could still see the alleyway and he was bigger than me so I can't run because he would have outrun me. And I just thought, I'll buy it.  And then I'm just stuffing and he's faffing around and then this vehicle's pulled up at the end of the alleyway and I'm not thinking, what's going on?   And I'm like, look, I recognize him. Why do I know you? Why do I know you? And he was from my briefing and it hadn't, because I was all new to this I hadn't realized the phone I had was two-way and they could hear everything that was happening.  I'm really sorry, mate. It was her, she wanted it.  So you say sorry to him, but you won't say sorry to me. And it was all tea and medals when I got back. They were all like, that was amazing. Like you did amazing, I'm thinking. But really, I just got dragged down an alley and you've had to send someone to come and rescue me. And they're like, do you think you'd go back and buy from him again? I was like, yeah, yeah. I think I'll be all right now. So that was it. I just kept going to back and buy him from him. It's sad that as well, but because it goes to show the people who have had actions that they'll get abused every day. Every day. Honestly. And that's the heartbreaking thing. That was the first thing that came to my mind but who else has he done that to? Oh, and do you know, a lot of the women, not that I was infiltrating them but so far I was on a particular job and there was women there that were addicted to crack or heroin. They would do that for the free gear. Yeah. And men? Yeah, yeah. I mean, I don't think I've ever come across them personally but yeah, definitely. Did he eventually get the Jew? He did go and he was few men. Did he see you? I didn't have to give evidence but apparently when they, obviously in disclosure, they have to tell him what's happened and they said it was an undercover operation. You've been selling drugs to an undercover police officer. Apparently his face just hit the floor. But it could have been worse. He could have got done for a lot more than just dealing with me drugs. So he didn't get done for sexual assault or anything? No. Why not? I don't know. He should have though, eh? Hmm. CPS probably. I don't know why he didn't. That was crazy, man. I don't think he did because if he did, they would have told me so I just assumed he hasn't but maybe he did. But how does that work? Is that because you're undercover as well? No, I don't know. I don't know. I'm going to ask about that because I don't know. I know he went to prison for the drugs but I don't know about. What happened to Fat Cop and never showed up? He would have had half a penis. I would have had to do it because what else would I have done?  So that was your first experience? Yeah, that was my first ever job. See once you calm down next day do you think this is it? Was it an attraction of the ups and downs, the emotions, the adrenaline? Or did you think that's about too much? That could have been anybody could have died basically. Your first job. How was the feeling the next day? If it was now I would think of it different but at the time I was being told that was amazing. That was brilliant. You were so good. I was like oh and the adrenaline of buying gear was like a police officer and you've just paid me to buy drugs. And now I've been told that was brilliant. I thought it was brilliant. I didn't even think about it. I didn't think about any other danger or I wanted the next job. But see when you're getting told you're good and stuff because I've spoke to enough couples now they're used. Yeah, yeah. Totally used. Do you think a part is being you being groomed as well? You've done a good job. It was amazing but inside I mean they're thinking you could have been you could have got put in serious harm there. You were in serious harm but do you ever think part of it is just yeah you're doing great part on the back and everybody wants to do their job great but you think part is like a little sense of grooming as well so you go on to the next one because they need people to do it. Yeah, I think to a degree it is but I don't think the people that are telling you it's great are I think they think it's great. I think it's come like it's a constant circle because they're like that he's actually because we're all a bit a bit dark and a bit odd they genuinely think it's great that you've managed to get yourself out of that situation or you've still got the drugs and you've not been touched up properly I think they believe it's real it's a good job I don't think they do it to necessarily groom you I think they don't even realise they're doing it and I think yeah I just in my brain wanted to be one of them so You would do anything basically? Yeah I never said no to any jobs I was like yeah I'll do it I'll go I don't know what I'm doing but I'll go You've kind of got to be about psychotic as well to do those sort of jobs even though it is kind of it's a massive attraction like if anybody who's got to join the corpus would think yeah that's undercover and you see the films and you think it's glamorous when you actually speak to undercover police officers you think it ain't glamorous the majority of the ones I've spoke to heads are fried yeah yeah the man I had on he was an undercover pedophile man I always thought I thought why like I'm a father so I understand the protection of kids and I'm overprotective I'm quite controlling in a way where I'm probably too overprotective but I've spoke to enough people to understand how bad the streets are and people don't realise that he went deep undercover and I always asked the question why because when he got offered his first job he saved a kid saved a kid yeah and I couldn't fathom how he can control your emotions and it takes a braver man to do so so I respect him but he says look James how could I walk away somebody had to do the job how could I walk away knowing that I've just saved a kid if I don't keep doing this how many kids are going to get damaged and it made sense to me okay I respect that but the psychology and stuff the mindset that it has to go through everyday and watching those videos and screams and stuff and he had to take it all in to try and put these people in prison and I respect that I genuinely do respect that and I respect anybody who goes deep undercover to then do the right thing even though it fucks them up mentally it destroys their life yeah absolutely and there's a lot of cops that are like that but I watch that one and he is that's what you aspire to be isn't it he's making a difference and it sounds so cheesy and cliche but ultimately you do join the police to make a difference because why else would you do it it's not for the pay because that's not very good the pension's not as good anymore as it was so why else would you join you want to be a good human and you want to make difference and get bad people off the street and let's be honest Peter Files are the worst people on the planet aren't they he's disgusting so cops like that yeah if they're play to him yeah they should be getting every reward possible to try and help better their lives and make them live in a better comfort but if you're getting paid buttons and then what happens is he's just used and that's the sad thing then what was it all for then but he did save children I guess and if he didn't but part of these children would be dead a lot of these kids 8, 9, 10 are prostitutes and in their mind they think it's normal they're just going round flats and they're getting passed around and it's so heartbreaking people don't realise the depths of the shit that goes on not just in the UK but worldwide all the trafficking everything that goes within it's fucking heartbreaking but whatever changed I don't think so because human beings there's too many on the planet there's too much confusion out there with everybody a lot of people don't know right from wrong I made lots of mistakes in my life I'm trying to rectify it I believe I'm a better person trying to do more right than wrong but we're human we fuck up but when you go down this that, that place then you don't realise the extent a lot of people live in their wee bubble a little 95 and they go home have their little drink have their dinner straight back up the next day when you actually start questioning things and looking into things a lot deeper you start to realise this place is mad and I'm kept away from it but if noise, entertainment that doesn't go on he's crazy he's a conspiracy theorist but I'm telling you man it goes a lot dark and deep than what people realise and that's the mad thing about it so after your first one close call are you thinking listen I'm one of the boys I'm doing it I'm making waves just let it go back to the next job no, I didn't realise how hard it was to become part of that I call it the bigger boys club they don't call themselves that because that would be really lame but they were older a lot older than me more experienced than me so you don't get the good good jobs until you've proven yourself on the crap job so until I can't go in and start doing pub work that's what I'm like anyone going to pub and buy gear but I wanted to do them jobs because I can go in there almost as myself all I need to do is just not mention the police bit and the rest of it will be fine so I wanted to do them ones but no they didn't come for ages I still had to go and do I had to be a prostitute on the street and I don't like that term I guess that's the term we all recognise it sounds awful but some of them jobs were funny and this stuff only would happen to me the first ever not pedophile job prostitute job I did I was stood in a red light area this is horrendous actually and this woman's come over to me and she's you know what you see in the press and in the media stereotypically what you would imagine she would look like she didn't have many teeth really not that's really nice lady and she'd come over and she'd be oh alright girl and I was like oh hello alright and these jobs work differently so normally you don't have a safety team but on these you do because you just never know how far it will go and you're visible so you can hide a surveillance team who are watching you quite easy got two way on my phone so they can hear everything that's been said never been here in my life and she goes alright girl I was like oh hello she went I ain't seen you for ages and I'm thinking that's a bit rude I've never been here before but I mean it's good but what a cow so I know they can hear it and I know they're going to be like something you want to tell us I said oh yeah I've been at my nan's she went oh she said oh fucking old boo are you see your idea right because they call everything in the plane and on my car see your idea fucking see your idea over there so she's got the surveillance team already and she said I wanted she said I'm going to go in the park if you see any that you don't fancy because obviously I'm going to fancy all of my punters send them in and I was like yeah yeah no worries I said be be careful she was like yeah stay safe and off she's gone and I've just kind of looked at the corner of my eye and they're just cracking up because they're like she obviously knows this woman but I don't it's just that she just assumes she knows me and she wants something from me she wants me to send the punters to her so I've stood there for a little while and this guy's come out of this building I don't know how much I can say on this without being totally crude but he came over he's a very big gentleman and he was like hello I said hello I said what do you want and he went dry anal but I can see the car is now rocking because they are crying with laughter and I just went dry like I've never even heard of that what? and he was just like do you do dry anal? and I was like I'm waiting for a cab and he was like oh okay and he walked off and obviously when he's way out of sight he gets nicked and um processed he went he said he didn't say that and I'm like he did say that where would I have got that from though of course he said it so we went to court and he brought his wife to court and I was just like and there was three magistrates and they are obviously their shoulders are like because they are thinking dry anal like this is ridiculous he should have just paid the fine no their shoulders are like going up and down I'm just standing there thinking I've got to say in court what has happened so I'm relaying it and all of a sudden his wife stood up I went look at her she looks like she would do that I'm trying to be professional because I don't I don't know what to do but I'm like this is like ridiculous she's saying what does someone look like who does that the magistrates do not even control themselves anymore they're very professional that's like just say to him we're going to have a break because everyone was just cracking up and that was like my second job dry anal and the wife said I look like I do dry anal but he's taught his wife that you had made that all up yeah what was his charge I don't know what he got charged with actually it's normally a fine like an FPM it's like a fixed penalty notice it'd be like 60 quid 100 quid but he I guess so this thing I don't know so you do what's the process to the dressing up and stuff how do you get it do you look at photos or do you watch films like where do you get the the kind of characteristics to kind of play that part for the streets sex work yeah you can't you know what you see on the telly where it's like short skirts and fire boots yeah he's none of that you just are literally almost myself nothing revealing so it's not encouraging them to yes you're in a red light area you're not encouraging them to come to you because you're scantily dressed or and in reality most of the girls on the street don't dress like that anyway it's really rare that they're stood there in fishnets and they've only got massive coat on because it's freezing and boots how many girls would normally work in the red light districts it would vary depending on where you was but yeah you'd see a lot you could see 10 20 girls and I easy and that's the ones that are on the street that's without the ones that are in houses a lot of men drive through more than you would even think and it's no stereotype with the men either so one day you would see like what you'd think and then the next day you'd have like free peace pinstripe soup a nice car and you'd be like wow but in your head you'd think they'd go to escort and they'd go to the street majority of them are perverts it's a pervert to mine but a lot of these guys will sleep with these women addicts and then go home with their wife and kids yeah but some of the ladies as well aren't like I was really shocked once there was a lady who I thought well she doesn't it sounds awful but I was surprised to see her because what I'd seen previously were drug users and stuff like that and not all of them are they're girls not all of them are but they're putting themselves in such danger it's horrible out there it's really horrible but this lady was she had a full time job she was going through a divorce and her husband stopped paying for their kids private school and she didn't want her kids life to be so damaged so she was going out selling herself so she could keep the kid in private school yeah damaging herself to try and help her son I felt so bad for her yeah it's sad but I'd done a homeless documentary of the women who was on the street she'd get raped twice and I'd do yeah it's just horrendous isn't it doesn't even report that because there's no point that's so sad yeah it is sad did you see a lot of that the girls a lot of the girls were yeah damaged and they would have conversations about how they would do it and then not get paid and they'd say they wouldn't report it because they would just be told well you did it but it's just because there was no transaction of cash and it's rape they felt like that and say that and it's like and then they'd go back out again so how does that work with them if that didn't happen what happens if they they'd report that would they also get charged with being a prostitute they could I mean is it what is the charge though there is there are charges for it but is it in the public interest really like it's ridiculous like it's the oldest profession in the world it's not going away and is it worth arresting the girls it's not going to stop them doing it again they're going to go back out after so see that brothels are brothels everywhere in the UK like why how can they still operate I don't understand that there is loopholes I don't know the ins and outs the why they're not they're blatantly there they used to run outside in Glasgow right outside that and it's just you see people coming out you're thinking why is that still there there is same as escorts on websites and stuff is it just kind of normalised but it's just kind of forgotten about or is there a team that actually tries to shut them down I don't think it's like illegal is it I don't know I don't think so I might be wrong I don't know every law but I know I'm sure there's some kind of loophole where it's like if it's this massage parlour I don't yeah it might be that I don't know I remember watching a documentary years ago and it was the woman that owned it she said I can't remember what it was yeah there must be a lot of people there's loads of them loads of them I'm an animal do you know what I mean but I just I spoke to enough people who the porn stars and that who actually work in escorts and they're the massage parlours and I'm thinking that's a lot of the same resemblance of the girls who do the streets to escort and it's madness stripping porn it's all kind of the same under the same umbrella yeah I find it really interesting I'm really interested in it all but it's crazy that you when you go before I did this work and you know you go to a hotel I went back and I lived he was in the bar but now obviously we go and I'm like oh my god there's six escorts and then is that what you're sitting like sitting there looking at and I'm like yeah because I've worked with these girls and I know what's coming for them later and it's not the best I know they choose to be there but what's a stand out to know you just do I can't explain it like they'll probably be on their own drinking something very nice they'll look really nice they'll be dressed much but you know I'll probably be in there in like like skins a hoodie and like a hat and they'll look nice you know they look pristine and you know that they're and it's it's in a lot of hotels especially nice hotels I remember my first ever escort job I got chatting to this girl and I thought she was amazing like the stuff she was obviously she didn't know who I really was but I just told her I was really new to it all and stuff and she's like oh you're gonna love it and she was giving me all these tips about who I should be like going for because they're big tippers and they're gift buyers and I was like I'm not surprised you're getting all that money and then a Louis chucked on top as a gift I'm like I might be in the wrong job here so see when you get like when you do these streets like you're catching it's kind of just all petty crimes yeah see when you start moving through the ranks does it become more dangerous or is it always dangerous clearly for your first job like there's never any it's a bigger job so it's gonna be more dangerous so it's always you've kind of always got a tube on guard it depends on the job like and I when I used to do the street drugs like in the stairwells buying gear and stuff reality is we're not gonna I don't know why we were doing that because we're not combating drugs and the moment that kids nicked because they are majority of late teens their kids they'll get nicked by the time they're being booked in custody someone else is already in their spot because the real owners the real dealers the businessmen at the top will get someone else in because they've been nicked so they just move someone else in so are we doing anything about that really by nicking him I don't think so and they can be dangerous like you don't want to piss these people off because ultimately they've got something you want and you're in their world they will have people around them so if you annoy them they've only got a whistle and then you can get a kick in so see when you're escorting look who are you trying to catch have you got a certain target or have you you try to catch a certain somebody somebody who's rating people like how does it work where you just try to catch people who's paying for escorts it changes like so the first one that one I was mentioning we knew there was a bad batch of gear in the west end giving away a lot now and it was getting like we knew it was being served up to the escorts so they said you go in you nut into the escorts and see who the dealers are and that was basically that was to establish who it is she was very kind and she did give me a number of her dealer because she felt sorry for me because I'm new and she did get she went outside actually and picked up while I was there and obviously I was like having a little look car index is trying to remember it couldn't remember it obviously can't start writing it down because that's not going to work is it but she could give me numbers so although I'm nutting into the escort on that occasion I'm not escorting but I'm not dealing with a man another one was a guy he was actually a high-ranking military officer they've been reports that he'd been getting escorts so they put me in front of him as an escort at a dinner and he took the bait we'll say very touchy feely I did have to keep sensing could you remove your hand we're at the dinner so he was wrong and yeah How much were you charging? oh it would vary it would depend who it was it depends on how long they wanted my time for that's mad right you had to do that did you have a husband at the time? that's another story yes and how does he handle that? ended in divorce did you lose a lot in that job because with the undercovers I speak to them they're all married two or three times the struggle a lot to keep because it's either them or the job in it do you find a lot of that in undercover work? yeah he didn't know that I was doing it just as well in it was that not the case? no I mean it was the best thing that ever happened that divorce but does the job play a lot to do with that though? or was it just a relationship that didn't work? it wasn't working anyway but he found my phone one of my dirty phones and was like who's this? and obviously when I tried to explain and I was telling him the truth I was like this is what I've been doing he was like bollocks and I was like it's actually true and he was like no and I was like if you could see this geezer's face he'd realise I'm not having an affair with him like seriously and he's like I'll ask your mum then and I'm like you can but she don't know and he's like oh I suppose your dad knows and I was like yeah my dad knows but my dad was the only one because he no one else needed to know I know it was not undercover then is it? no I'm telling everyone like so that ended in divorce it was a very messy divorce like crazy messy but I was really lucky that I had the covert stuff because I could live my other life and not have to worry about my real life and again it's only now I've left and I'm looking back I'm like that was actually mental because I was going through so much personally it was horrible and I had a little girl at the time it was a mess it was a complete mess he was fighting me for custody of her and I'm like well that's not going to happen is it? like don't be silly I'm not going to stop you from seeing it of course I would never do that but don't start trying to do that that's really a set of order do you feel as if living a double life helped you get through the madness? with that doubt being somebody else? yeah not even a shadow in my head and it was fun not funny but at the time my mum this is awful to say but I'd created a bit of a eating disorder and I never realised it until probably five, seven years ago I wouldn't have classed it as that and my mum was getting quite worried and she said look you're getting really skinny Dan and I played it off that it was like yeah but posh bias because I love her and she's a size zero and you know it was all in the press all size zero, a gap of doing skirts and then a size zero it was all that sort of thing and I was like yeah I'm just doing that and my mum was like I don't think you should do it like you look really ill and I used to get really sore ribs when you lay down and you're so skinny my ribs used to really hurt and I was just taking laxatives like literally my packets are laxatives and my mum was getting panicked and then she showed me some pictures and she said this woman was addicted to laxatives and look at her and I was like I don't want that because immediately I had my little girl but that was the only thing I was controlling in my real life and I only realised this much later on that actually that was a proper eating issue I had and that was the only thing I could control and then when I go to my fake life that I liked more than my real life I was having the best time ever and I didn't have to worry about controlling what I was eating or drinking but at home I would it was crazy so see when you go through all that do you find it hard to find balance because you're a bit young, not naive but you're kind of just trying to do the right thing do you find it difficult to find balance with relationships, with being a mother with being an undercover copper do you struggle with the balance of it yeah I didn't have any balance I was all in my fake life my police life, I had no balance at all immediately it's like I would be I had mum guilt but I would immerse myself in my other world and not have to think about the mum guilt and then like the homework so she'd be in the car doing her homework I'd be picking her up from my mum's or my dad's and I'd be like I've got homework and I'd be like come on then let's quickly do it in the car because when we get home I've got to put her to bed and then if I've picked up from my dad's my mum would be coming round so I can go back to work so I'd literally be there for bedtime wake up, drop off to school pick up sometimes and it was just this horrible constant vicious circle of just throwing myself back into work being there when I need to like be there because I'd have the mum guilt and then I'd go to work there was no balance at all what was the job you had to do when you had to dress up as a schoolgirl yeah that was actually I laugh about it because that's just the humour isn't it so I was there was a guy who it was over 120 something offences of touching and it was getting a little bit worse each offence was getting a bit worse so it started like over clove touching then it was upskirts and stuff like that and it's all schoolgirls they tried surveillance couldn't get him, he was super super CTTV aware they had one grainy image of him where you couldn't even really see his face and they just couldn't couldn't get him so they said we're going to put a decoy out and see if we can if he takes the bait basically and I was a decoy and I'd done hundreds of decoy jobs that never worked ever it's the TSG world my safety and they're like the what you see at the football, they're in the vans so they're all lads they were my safety and they gave me a school uniform and said can you go and put that on this is your outfit for the thing and when I walk back in I can imagine like 20 something year old and a school uniform looks ridiculous they all give me loads of banter it was funny and for two weeks I just stood in this area where we thought he might appear, their intelligence I didn't have the intelligence they had it we had a full team on it we had officers bin men we had people in houses in the back of vans I was properly surrounded in case he came out and then the last day of the operation my dirty phone rang and it was the senior investigating officer and she said just end ex he's not coming I was like okay but I didn't expect him to so I just literally put my phone back went to start walking and I don't even know why I did it but I just turned around like this and I saw this guy in a dark black hat jacket or dark clothes and he was like creeping around the corner, you know you get the war and then it's like I got a bush above it and he was like creeping around it like this but I didn't think nothing of it and I probably didn't because when I was there for two weeks I couldn't believe how many men in white vans like Wolf, whistle, all the way out the window and the girls were in school uniform I was like that's bad that because they're quite clearly girls of school age so I started walking and then I just heard behind me and I didn't even get to turn around and he grabbed me around the throat and pulled me to the floor and ejaculated all over me and I was just like is that actually I couldn't even believe it, is that real? I don't know and what felt like the long time it was and it was like literally a couple of seconds they obviously jumped on him, got him, nicked him and I had a camera on my backpack creepy and I'm doing his trousers masturbating to the point of he got me and then when he got me his hands on me just ejaculated and it was him it was the guy I don't know, he went to prison I don't know what sentence he got I think it was multiple years but not much not for what he'd been doing for the volume of offenses why is the the prison sentence is so lenient with sex cases because of so many of them I literally don't know I think the sentencing is it's not a deterrent is it it's just ridiculous I don't feel like a lot of the sentence is a punishment no because that's why they keep re-offending but once they've got it in their mind that mindset can't be changed that's the scary thing about sex cases their mind is gone like Russia life in prison I'm not getting into all that shit but the laws for sex cases is spot on Australia take their passports, take their driver licence can't leave the country, can't change their name the UK they can change their name for less than 20 quid they can be a different person they can then do what they want to do move to a different country move to a different place and they've got a new identity the laws are terrible here kid in Scotland, rape to 13 year old and they get community service that's not on man and the thing is they're so protected not just outside of prison in prison as well there needs to be certain things put in place that these people need to be kept away from kids, people are just coming out and they're putting in front of schools and they're staying in whatever they want they're so well protected it's unbelievable and things need to change because things seem to be getting worse I don't know if social media has made it worse do you think with mobile phones and technology now it's easy to be under covered do you think it's more difficult? I won't do it now it's a fake profile which you would need you still got to have some kind of interaction with it you'd be managing like 30, 40 accounts to try and make your one account seem real if you meet somebody you do just find one Instagram and add one Instagram or on Twitter or whatever it might be but how can you do that? my job now, my real job I work in cyber security and we deal with fake accounts all the time and we get them taken down and we have fake accounts but you would have to have a huge volume to make your one look real so that's a full time job isn't it just sitting there constantly interacting with your and we do all of our lives online so to go out and be deployed and say I don't have it do you though? that's not going to work how many jobs did you do under cover? I have no idea what was the hardest one you've done? probably the pedophile stuff what was that like? you felt like you was doing a good job and again it's only now I've left that I think about these things you're doing a good job you're saving someone because 9 times out of 10 I'd be playing the child so if they're saying these horrible things that they're going to do to me, I'm an adult and I know that they might say that to me I can process it and I didn't process it it's only now I'll process it but if that's a genuine child that's not right how can they process that when they're that young and they've got their whole lives ahead of them it's just not right I used to be happy it was me and not the kid because I don't know how you would deal with that as a child I just don't know what was the first pedophile job you'd done? it was an online case where they'd been speaking to so it was actually a the unit, the pedophile unit were talking to this guy online but they were getting suspicious he was on Skype but he was getting suspicious that he was a copper and he said he wanted a call a video call on Skype so they called me in and said you need to speak to him I had to read the transcript so I knew what the conversation had been and speak to him and the conversation had been horrific like it was disgusting and then I just went on to Skype with him and he was talking to me and I was trying to make it in my own head I was trying to make him see I'm a kid he said what have you been up to? and I said I've just got home from school and he went oh cool that's so weird isn't it like it's just weird and he said he had a present for me he was a proper I don't know they're all very strange but the stuff he was saying was just he had kinks about picking me up and I was like I don't even know what that is and he kept saying when I see you I'm going to pick you up and I was like oh okay but I'm heavy and he was like no I'm going to pick you up and the DC that had been speaking to him was like yeah he keeps talking about this picking up thing I don't know what he's on about and he said I've got a present for you do you want to see it and I was like what is it and I was like oh god he said Danny Shroud has showed me his penis but I've got a room full of well not a full but a couple of DCs and they're like oh they know what's happening they can hear the conversation she's just been showing his dick and he's touching himself but I can't even my face is like so I just shut the lid of the laptop because I'm like I don't know what the fuck I was expecting to do that I thought it was going to be a chat and and then I rung him back once I'd calmed down and like I laughed because I don't know how to deal with this if I don't laugh I'll cry and be in a dark room for years so I laughed and phoned him back he said did you see that and I was like see what and he was like I did that for you did you not see it I said no just do it again and he went I can't do it again and he'd obviously ejaculated and I was like just do it again and he was like I can't do it again I did that for you he said why did you hang up I said my mum came in the room again I'm trying to give him messages I'm a child and he's just not getting the message or not that he gives a share and that's why he's on the phone probably or he's on the phone but when I was saying do it again he was getting angry because he was like you don't understand and then he said I'm going to come and see you and we'd arranged to meet and he was coming to Liverpool Street Station and the team said we need you to be there because we think he's quite suspicious you know he's obviously asked for a call before because he wants to make sure you're real and you're not a police officer we need you to come to the train station with us but don't worry you're not going to interact with him you're just coming to the station just so he sees you and will approach you I said alright so we went to the train station there's obviously plainclothes officers waiting to nick it because that in itself is an offence to travel and he got off the train and he was walking towards me and then I just sort of bypassed like that and they just swooped and nicked him and took him out we went to court with him and then his face just hit the floor and I said is it correct you was acting in a covert capacity yes I was a covert police officer did you engage with this gentleman that's the man I spoke to on the laptop that is the man I saw at the train station and he was just like he can't believe it but he knew it could happen he'd been to prison before he was on the register but he wasn't if he got he wasn't he's wants were too much that he couldn't think about what could happen to him he wanted it too much like I say the mines gone they're going to keep repeating absolutely none the only thing it can do him is a fucking bullet in the head and I know that's rough and I know that's but the only way to protect kids is either bring the electric chair back or life in prison kids will never be safe and that's the scary thing that I've interviewed so many people to understand how dark and demonic this fucking world is and these people getting protected they're protected for too much we can go into the deeper route and look at Epstein I don't know if I've been exposed some high profile names on this planet but yeah we'll talk about Will Smith slapping somebody on stage and talk about so many shit that distracts us from the real noise to see when you start doing this when did it start taking its toll on you probably when I got pregnant with my son had a horrible pregnancy and they told me that baby had died and it hadn't so that was probably when I started thinking about God because of course these things happen but you don't expect anything like that to happen to you do you and that's when I probably sat back and thought what am I doing and that job that one with the school girl outfit I had got a letter from the girl's mum one of them in particular really made me think I'm not really an emotional person I was welling up reading this letter and she wrote me a thank you letter saying that her daughter now was no longer taking sleeping tablets and she was no longer wet in the bed and I just thought oh my God like as a parent I can't even it gives me goosebumps when I think about it I can't imagine what that mum was going through let alone the little girl like this madness and I just thought at that point I was pregnant with my son and I just thought what am I doing I'm actually putting everyone else before my children and I don't want to do that anymore because I was pregnant I wasn't allowed to be deployed so I was at home all so I was doing more with Amelia and I liked it I liked being at home with her and she liked me being at home with her and then my partner at the time, Albert's dad he was UC and we joke about this because we did take the job a little bit too far we were deployed and they ended up having a baby nine months later so we went very deep under cover and he left because he was his brain was fried with it so he left and he was headhunted by a company in France to go and work in France and he said why won the baby like you take the year off after you had the baby why don't you just come and live in France I was like that's a great idea so me, Albert and Amelia went to France I took a career break, I actually took a five year career break so I might get out of the picture yeah you can take five years and I can take the five years and do you know what I had this lovely lady governor and she was really nice and she used to get a lot of crap actually from people on the borough they didn't like, I liked her because she just told it how it was and I think the police need that and I used to tell her I need to take some time out she knew what would happen with my pregnancy and stuff and she said yeah I'll authorise it and I was like really, she was like yeah I'll authorise that so five years but I didn't take the five years after about 18 months I left we went and lived in France and I became mum which was I found it really difficult just to be mum and nothing else how do you switch off for the madness is that what you struggled with I craved it like I just thought what do I do tomorrow then tomorrow I'm just going to wake up and do the school run but I found that really hard I didn't have any friends in France either because where we lived was in like a bit of a village and no one spoke English not that they should were in France I thought my French was really good but it was really not when I lived there so I didn't have any friends there Albert was a baby still so he wasn't at school after I had a meal I went back to work after a couple of months but with Albert I was there every day doing mum stuff and I just I didn't know what I was doing I was just like this is actually really hard see that's the thing about people that you understand that what you said earlier about that little girl doesn't wet the bed anymore she doesn't take tablets and that there is why you do your job that is why people need to see police officers the straining and misery they put themselves away from the kids and try to protect everybody from their own way that's what people need to understand the levels that police officers have to go through so I think I had massive respect for that like somebody has to do what you've done it but that there is a key element same with undercover pedophile if I walked away James who else would help save those kids you walking away earlier who else would have had that little girl she would probably have ended up taking her own life but majority of people are doing her and so much pain and trauma so that's what people need to understand the work that goes into an undercover cop it's unbelievable it's levels but it's also when you're trying to save people and do the right thing you're also destruction inside yourself did you see that kind of messy mind field up here with trying to be a mother but knowing what's going on in life over protective did that come apart in it because everything is not harder being a parent but because of the... I don't know how many times I've said it in this podcast but because I know who I interview now and understand what goes on I'm so over protective my kids don't have sleepovers they don't and they hate me for it but I just don't want it because people putting cameras in houses and other shit like that and it happens it may be a bit far-fetched and it doesn't happen to everybody but it does happen so my job is to eliminate risk I'll be the bad fella so everybody can come stay here but that's not happening for you and me yeah it's like that in our house I think now I've left it get my daughter's 18 and she knows everything absolutely everything and my little boy's 11 and he's like a real mummy's boy but I'm so protected because I've seen this stuff I'm so protective of them both I need to know where they both are at all times and I worry so much she's 18 and she'll go out and I don't sleep I'm just waiting for her to come home because I can't I'm like what if and Ben will say to me when we were 18 you was out being a copper but she's different she's precious but I've flipped it on its head I've gone from the mum that was doing the homework in the car to the crazy mum that goes all out now on her and Ben says you overcompensate you're even trying to cram in now what you missed out on is because she'll go to uni soon and then she's not going to come home after uni she'll go and get a house and a job and she'll start I don't want her to have kids I've told her no kids because it's stressful but she'll have her own life and then she won't want me to help her anymore and he's like you think about this too much what will be will be and I'm like my brain can't let her go and she's 18 but she's my baby and he's like all because of you wasn't as much when she was little as you wish she was so your partner was under cover as well Albert's dad this sounds terrible doesn't it and I'm not proud of this but it's life my children have different dads and my partner I met when I was filming haunted but we've been together 7 years do you think that easier for some of the king than the same industry understand you a bit more because anybody else if you're sitting telling new stories yeah he says that as well he does say that as well but yeah it does help he's background after where he carefully is British intelligence when is he coming on the podcast he's not allowed to talk he gets slapped on the wrist all the time but yeah it's funny actually when he gets told off how do you trust that man especially being dragged down at least someday fucking wearing a leather coat coming in his pants how do you then trust the process of men's psyche and thinking that's not all men are bad no I was just going to say I've met equally amount of women I'm not trying to shoot men down because men and women are just as bad like you say good and bad coppers good and bad anywhere in life but when you go through some sort of trauma like that did you ever try and forget that and realise ok it's not a job every man is not bad or do you then have your guard up with every man that goes into your life I think I don't trust many people not just men I don't trust many women either and I think actually women can be much more calculating than men I think when men make mistakes or untrustworthy there's tales hell signs but women are quite clever at it I don't trust many people at all like really don't I used to always doubt myself I don't learn how to trust but do you know what I'm happy with the group I've got I'm happy with the family and friends I've got I don't really need anybody else in my circle there's business unless there's money to be made or less we can take things to a new level I'll listen, right now I'm not I'm in a good place people around me are good because like you say women are very manipulative and I think we can learn that now because everybody's always in a women's favour as well but especially when it comes to cop seeing a video last week of women hitting herself with hammers getting her husband and her boyfriend in trouble I had a guy more Rami on where the young girl who just got nine years there said that she was getting traffic, this and that and it was all lies people lost their jobs their kids were committing suicide Johnny Depp there's a lot of high profile things to realise the extent goes and the thing is the majority of sexual shit happens with men we get it but there's a lot of fucking bad stuff with the women who make lives up and destroy men's careers because there's so much, the papers are too quick to jump on allegations allegations are allegations it's not a conviction we get away with things and never been charged to a guilty we can go down to Jimmy Savile but there's a lot of people in prison who haven't of your personally they've done over 20 stretches as well they're innocent so it's just having an open mind and understanding there's always three sides to the story there's always both sides and then there's always a truth but there's so much shit now online about stuff and I think as much as online stuff can be negative and damaging towards a human mind you can't just say the platform you can't get your own voice out and say things from your side see me again through that whole life how long did you do it? the undercover stuff I started it was probably about just under 10 years a decade did you get any psychological help when you done it when I had a couple of jobs I said you should go and see the counsellor and I said I did go to see him because you do need to go again it wasn't it's only now I've realised that it was a ticking box exercise not for my benefit just to cover themselves and I went and he weren't there so I got to the appointment and he wasn't there and I was like well I went and he wasn't there and they were like I'll book another one so I booked another one and he wasn't there and I thought I'm not doing that again but it was only around the time you probably saw it where UC personally was infiltrating pregnant and the units shit themselves and started getting more forms and paperwork just to cover back sides I'm not a police basher I'm super pro police I think what's happening at the minute is really sad and no one hates a bad copper more than a good copper obviously I went to an event last night with an ex DCI and we were talking about what's in the press at the minute the Wayne cousins and stuff like that and we were like it's just wrong isn't it like I just don't it's just so wrong and I don't think his nickname was the rapist I wouldn't have called out but I'd have asked what's that all about and the DCI said Jim I would have said that's a bit dark that it's not like calling him like I don't know whatever that's a bad nickname I just think they've got themselves in this horrible mess I think the new management I think one Owens will be great she started at the bottom she worked her way up she retired went to the NCA retired and come back as the assistant commissioner I think she's going to be good something does need to change especially the numbers are dropped I don't know if it's to do with funding and stuff as well nobody wants to do that job the recruitment's so poor though they did a scheme where you could join a rank so you could join a senior management position if you had a degree what the worst people the worst coppers are academics like you want people that know how it is on the street you know you need you can't make decisions big decisions that impact your your teams if you've never done that job yourself like you know you need to be a PC on the streets and work your way up then you're qualified to make the decisions just because you've got a degree doesn't mean you're going to be a good copper and nor does it mean you're going to be good at making a decision on policing and look at recruitment it's poor we're short of I think she started 10,000 cops we're short of and the runs that they have recruited are pretty poor not all of them of course but like not in a million when I joined I've seen like an old woman but when I joined they wouldn't have got in people there they're just not qualified for it and they've scrapped Hinden now you don't go and live at Hinden anymore that was part of it like that was part of the like the morale and and there's people jumping on bandwagons now as well about misogyny I never saw that I'm not saying it didn't happen because it probably did I never saw that but it's all fucked up no man saw this gender stuff and all this but back in the day it was gone with and I've been saying this recently mental health's on the rise suicide's on the rise but yet we speak out about it most and we've ever done is that the issue that we're actually speaking about and people are then jumping on it and thinking okay I have good problems and really it's just problems that 99% of the world have back in the day it's slap behind the head fucking on with that's it look we've got to find a bit of more strength and stay tough and up and I was always forced speaking out and speaking up but the bottom line is man when you've got issues nobody fucking cares get on with it so many people are speaking about mental health but it doesn't seem to be working if suicide's at an all time high there's so many people speaking out then it's it's so sad isn't it when you think like someone could be that sad and it makes me feel so sad it's heartbreaking because I've lost many friends to suicide I spoke to family members and on the podcast I've lost kids to suicide I get it but there comes a time in your life if you're broken you don't feel it's enough then you've got to look at the things that you're doing in life the majority of people who are struggling now are drinking are taking drugs or maybe over eating not exercising there's a lot of factors if you're not doing any of that stuff and you're still struggling with mental health then seek help but if you're doing all that other stuff and you're struggling you've got the clues there that why are mental health fucking going whatever the gear that you're snorting the booze the overeating of the chemicals that's going to the brain and there's so many factors that come in to play social media we're looking at other people's lives and think they've got a great life and it's just all an illusion I'm not even on social media it's the way I used to be because I think I craved it people tell me what I was doing and you're doing amazing comes a habit as well doesn't it I'm finding a better balance in my life I'm understanding life a bit more I always knew social media was bad I still dealt my 20 from time to time but then I can get sucked right in I've waited 4-5 hours I was talking to someone recently and he took my friend Jordan Wiley who was on Hunted I know Jordan, love Jordan Jordan's fault that this book's out because he kept nagging me to write a book but he's a great guy he's one of my really good mates and he says to me I'm taking a detox a social media detox and I was like you for 8 hours 10 hours a day filming and he'd just be like what are you doing and he'd be like on instagram we're catching fugitives and we had great banter in alcohol and then when he said he was taking the detox I was like you won't last 2 minutes but he's quite a determined character and he it's the Libra thing in him we're both Libras and we're both quite strong minded and he did he took it and I couldn't believe it and then when he appeared back on I was like oh he's back and he was like yeah the way he used it now is completely different to how he used it before and when he said it I thought yeah that's a really good idea because you wake up you go and check that and you check that and like you said before you've even done anything you've wasted an hour of your day and the human being's attention span is getting less and less and I don't want to go out that way I want to leave a legacy yes I've got to promote my podcast but don't need to be spending so much time quality time because I'm in a good place mentally and I want to enjoy life I'm not daft I kind of see things differently from everybody else and I kind of try to wait all up okay this isn't good for me my eating habits is the only thing I'm social media and eating habits I'm masturbate too I'll be all gravy but I am human I do make mistakes I do but after a podcast it kind of they're quite intense not intense but it takes a lot of energy you're interviewing people and you'll feel the drain and you're hearing horrible things at the same time as well did you ever have to your cover nearly blown at any point because I had a man's something woods on Neil he's a legend his head's going back he's got cheese and stuff but he went to pick drugs up and the guy says you'll love this taste it was a bit of speed but he didn't want to blow his cover so he rattled at and he was up doing the housework for three days he's the nicest guy so you know my brain as I said my opinion on drugs has changed it's because of him and a guy called Professor David Nutt I've changed now I go to listen to lectures and they were doing a lecture at Manchester Union I thought I'm going to go and listen to them and hear them out and they explained it about drugs and legalization and what it would I thought you're right because I was institutionalised I was told it was wrong so I just went it is wrong but people still do it so what are we going to do about that because they put a rest in everybody for that so Neil made me change my opinion I'd actually like to get Neil back on we had that discussion about legalising drugs because it's a trillion dollar industry there's too much money involved you take away the drug supply prisons would close down the majority of things are to do with same as alcohol but alcohol is another shop it's a glorified drug but you can go into depth of how the world is run and this is where the darkness comes in do you think kids giving sugar and schooling and then it's drugs and then it's working at 95 that's not the way your life should be you're getting conditioned from a young age at schools you're being programmed do you think people in schools they're trying to programme you to be a leader to be an entrepreneur you're controlled and brainwashed to be a worker for the elite they've understood that they're not building you up for success love and money management and health and fitness you're there to sit and are you who the fuck needs to go to are you mathematics yes listen it's good to count but you can learn that but now I believe you're conditioned at school to then work for the elite you'd be a good worker but if you start thinking outside the box you become a threat you sound like my husband yeah I love that because we travel a lot he just comes with us but he says exactly the same and the alcohol thing is so interesting because where we live the culture is to have a drink every afternoon and we did do that we were getting to the point of but the first two years we lived there we'd go and have a beer every day and then you'd look and you'd go we actually had a day off in three months of alcohol but I can take it or leave it and I'll be like that's me out come on let's go and have a beer and he drinks faster than I do I do try and keep up I just can't and like he's only recently he listened to a few podcasts about alcohol and he was like it's actually rotten when you think about what it does to you it's actually rotten and then he was telling me some stuff so we stopped we just cut it I was like let's just stop this it's ridiculous and it's cheaper where we live to have a beer or a glass of wine than it is a coke not that coke is much better and yeah he was like I'm just giving it up good on him and it was funny because we travelled to London this week the culture is to have a beer isn't it we're at an event have a beer and he's like you can have one I was like I don't know you can have one and I was like why are we even doing this to ourselves if we want one have one just don't go mad but it is a little escape it's an adjacent you can see how people become alcoholic listen the reason why I've done it for so long I've done the pain and I've felt pain for that moment I was on the gear or I was on the booze and I've felt it so it's an escape all this shit you've seen all the trauma you're a tough little fucker so as much as you've got that friendly nature and bubbly I believe that's a character that you've created you've got it to a T but you're fiery as fuck as well I wouldn't want to cross era because even though you sit there all calm and innocent the bubbly character you've got something in you where you wouldn't fucking take any shit either and that's how you ended up probably getting to where you got to in life but it's just everything people need to be aware of alcohol, they need to be aware of drugs they need to be aware of sugars, they need to be aware of coffees and we can make excuses or certain things are good for even the porn porn does more damage to your brain and heroin and that's that people don't realise and why is it so free because it fucking damages your mind it damages your grades and mid-term where people can't then see things differently it makes them perverted it makes them think sex scenes are this and it's normalised the whole world is backwards even sex it's sexual energy exchange it's soul ties there's so much energy in this life we're all thinking backwards as soon as we're born even when a woman gives birth she's giving birth on her back which is wrong artificial lights it's wrong they're cutting the umbilical cord which is wrong that's where the kid gets her nutrients the kids are coming out drugged and crying the kid should be giving birth on water but it's natural everything's natural and it should be squatting the umbilical cord is so important because that's where people are selling that for thousands of pounds with stem cells that we can I've been doing a lot of reading and research and it might come across crazy to people but it's just open your eyes and try to question everything I'm at a stage where I'm trying to question everything my platform's getting bigger I don't want to fool anybody I'm just talking about from what I've experienced how I've grown how I've understood the world a little bit more I might be full of shit but I just look at my life from where I was to where I am today something must be right I still love a little bit of attention and I love nice things that's alright but it's not who I am it doesn't define me as an individual see me out going through everything that was a cover of a nearly blown where you had to do something that you shouldn't have just to stay in character got nicked did you? how what happened? again this would only happen to me this wouldn't happen to anyone else I was infiltrating a gang in a pub and it was a coke job but it was a little bit more than the he wasn't the main main obviously you're never going to get to the top of the tree but he was quite high up in the game and nice looking lad but yeah I'm going to get it straight into you you fall for that drama don't you? but I don't think they fall for me but he was clever I knew the DJ he's named DJ Dave I knew he was running it for him basically he was getting it from him and he was giving it to me I started buying gear buying no problem really got myself ingratiated in the pub literally no problems whatsoever no one was bothered about me being in there told them that I was my boyfriend so I'm vulnerable and I'm staying with my Nan because I'm just so emotional at the moment and so they're all like feeling a bit sorry for me I've been buying drugs for weeks in there but this geezer had a girlfriend and she didn't like me at all I think she knew I was after her man and one Friday night she weren't in there and I was like amazing so I just thought this is it and he was looking at me and I'm looking at him and it's all a bit weird he bought me a drink we got chatting I'm laughing at all these shit jokes but he still wouldn't give me it he still made Dave give me it but I've watched you give it to Dave and now Dave's give me it so I've got my gear for the night whatever and we're having a really nice time you should get a job in here if you're that upset you should work in here and I was like do you reckon all of a sudden the bouncers have come that's how nice this pub was the fucking police are here all beer coming in and all of a sudden the pub starts getting raided and they went to town on it as well they smashed all the bottles behind the bar it was like it was snowing in there everyone was frying gear in the air dropping their gear apart from me because there was evidence and the geese that goes to me don't say anything I was like as if so the girls come home and she goes anything on you shouldn't have what was that I don't know why are you in here obviously I didn't say that but I'm thinking what is going on she searched for me and she's like see isn't it whatever she's nicked me he's got nicked because he's got gear on him as well so we've both been arrested both got taken down to the station and booked in and the custody officer would offer us a strip search just start strip searching me she goes top up bottom first I said well top and she's undone my jacket and I'm wearing a wire and she was like she went fuck what do I do and was like whispering in the cell I said nothing just don't say anything in custody cause he's in here literally say nothing she's like how are you going to get out someone will come and get me just say nothing so she's left I'm just sat there for like hours actually is anyone coming to get me cause this is not nice and eventually someone come and got me but they had to wait until he had been booked in he was out of the way and bedded down for the night like who are and she was nice but she was a little bit rough and after she was like I'm really sorry, I'm so sorry cause it's all on camera and I was like it's fine don't worry about it she was like what can I do to make it up to you I'm not complaining like don't worry about it yeah she's only doing her job but she was a little bit rough but in her defence she was a bit excited she's nicked some of her pee wits that don't happen every day and everyone else in the pub I didn't got a nick apart from me and him so she's thinking that's not bad I'm so glad I want to search there cause I've nicked her so that went down well though with the bigger boys they were like that's amazing you got nicked I was like but that shouldn't have happened that was an operational error on their part they should have checked to make sure there's nothing going on in that pub they didn't check otherwise they wouldn't have been able to raid it but it was good for me it was good for my legend see when you do the undercover stuff you come face to face with the people you've done after them to interview them I was all just behind the screen then once you've got them the conviction did you ever have to go and interview them or anything like the nonces or the pedophiles I would literally I was just literally there as the asset to be deployed so there'd be a whole team an investigations team that would deal with everything how young a kid were you playing how young would you go trying to look is there a lot of make up then behind that 13, 14 depends if it was face to face it's harder if it's on a screen it's not that drastic but 13, 14 but I was 20s, mid 20s and I'm short so and I'm skinny then as well how many girls were there in the undercover team there was probably I know two four but yeah probably four but out of them four probably one other was deployed regular very specialist language skill so she was deployed but not the others weren't really deployed they said no to a lot of jobs how you're treated with the other screws obviously there's different levels and the army hate the navy everybody together the armed response hate the undercover was that people against you no one knew where we were but you know what it's really this is bad and my husband always mocks me for this obviously I was uniform for a while and I still had a day job while I was doing the covert stuff I was just never at my day job but used to really give my bosses the ump because I'm shown on their team strength and I'm not there but because I was uniform obviously you ingratiate yourself and there's a place in Comet Garden called Roadhouse it's a dump, absolutely dump but full of coppers every copper goes there and armed response are always outside I used to come out and they go and I'd be like alright do you want to lift home I'd be like yeah so you'd get a lift home with them armed response would just drive me home every night and I was like when I've seen them after like now not recently but since I've left they're like I can't believe you've left can't believe you did all that we had no idea and Ben'll be like oh they're the ones that used to give you the lift did you have to wear a wire in every job no only when you're comfortable because that's about so so not yeah and it can go bent like I've got a male colleague who had been infiltrating this particular gang for months and then they said are you comfortable with the wire now and he's like yeah no worries and he went to this job, went to pick up and there was a woman in there who was off her face and he's got his old bill, he's a copper, he's a fed and he was like shut up and the dealer was telling her to shut up the dealer slapped her and said shut up and she grabbed him and his wire come out and they beat him up and he's a proper done him and he's a big lad and I said when he came to them we had a meeting about it all because obviously it was pretty bad when he came he was mashed proper mashed up and I said if that was me that I'd have got that hide it and I'd be dead that he's a big lad I wouldn't have been able to take that see the entrapment does that even exist anymore or is that a myth because I've asked something and I don't know if they ever gave us a kind of straight answer so far my undercover copper and I'm buying gear and I'm snorting can coppers snort gear and stuff no you're not allowed you're told not to you're not allowed to actually do it they say that you're supposed to have a good enough reason to not do it that's part of your story and your legend why are you not doing it and you've got a reason why you're not doing it so how does it work then entrapment what is that law so it would be, it's called Arjun Prabhakarta where you make them do something you say is that good or is that a French thing agent Prabhakarta well I thought it was underwear because it's an underwear brand a really expensive brand I never do what it was until obviously joining this team but you're not allowed to make them do something they wouldn't normally do so if I went to a guy and said especially as a woman oh I need some gear can you get me and he's like I don't know I can ask someone that's not cool because he obviously doesn't know and he's not going to really be doing that normally but because he fancies you he'll go and get it for you that's not okay, that's crap isn't it because he's not a drug dealer he's doing it because he thinks he's going to get a date out of you yeah so it's still a thing but it's up to you to make sure that you're doing it properly and the evidence is secure and that it's not just happening because you're flirting with it more what's the worst thing you've seen that's probably replaced from team to team it weren't on a covert job it was actually uniform and it was a baby that died the parents the dad just killed the mum hung himself and left the baby the baby star to death that was not the best scene though yeah how do you deal with that it's just my job now though, still good flashbacks but I think about other stuff more than that I think of things that make me feel guilty more like what this guy, I talk about him all the time actually and he probably sees this and thinks that fucking bitch but I actually do feel genuinely bad he did a bad thing but I think it changed his entire life and he, I was deployed at a festival in Kendall and I was buying gear and pills but I'm at a festival, it's like 10 apenni we were literally going into this dance 10, I'm going everyone's chewing their own faces off it's like it was literally like that one that one it was no specific or this person, we think it's this person it was literally we think there's a bad batch of gear because it happens the intent of the operation was good because they thought there was a bad batch and they wanted to get it but he's got it, we don't know and this guy, this was a shun guy and I was watching him and he served someone up I thought, oh he's got gear so I went over and had a chat with him and he said, oh yeah he was caring, he was like, I've got it but I ain't got enough here come back to my tent so we were like, alright, so we went back to his tent he served us up, he obviously got nicked and it went to court and he was a law student, he was studying to be a lawyer he was young not a scumbag, you know you think oh, a scumbag wasn't a scumbag his dad was a lawyer his dad was fuming a court as you can imagine that this kid, I don't believe for one second he was a drug dealer in the sense of he goes home and he's cutting up in his bedroom I think he's bought himself some gear and he's just marked it up in the festival and pinging it up and he's literally just been unlucky and got caught he went to prison lost his career I think about him all the time hopefully he's not ended up on gear and then pinging up, I'd be reading he's made him a strong reader I wouldn't even look him up but I don't think my presence would be welcoming in his family but I've got a daughter at 18 and I always like to think that I did not like to think, but I always think if she made one and it is a tiny, it's a matter of minutes making a matter of minutes your life just flips on its head and I can't imagine his dad was not happy not with just us, but not with the kid either I can't imagine the phone called to the dad and he's been nicked for possession with intensive supply but again you're still doing your job as well see a lot of petty criminals and shady drug dealers that are doing their rebits and festivals they're doing a lot of these kids they think they're big ballers because they sound a couple of gram here and there they're so small but do they not realise the extent of undercovers that acts the working festivals because a lot of kids die in these festivals as well they be taking their first pill and stuff and I know the street value and we've killed so many people as well obviously they're not realising then how extreme it can be when kids lose their life especially at a festival they're excited about buying dead what happens then if I could give somebody a pill and they take it and they die who would they see get charged with there was that case recently where it was actually an actor's daughter and he went to trial but he got off with it if I guess if they've taken it themselves it's not murder then is it no I would assume not I don't know the ins and outs I remember reading something about it I'm not going to need to understand the damage and effects it does but again everybody's got free will there's enough stories out there I took drugs for years and all of a sudden I'm studying all the other shit that you put in your body and I'm just more aware I wasn't aware then it was just normal it would normally go to festivals and get out here it was it was it just made sense everybody done so I'm going to do it it's not going out on a Friday the 1st of Thursday when we're growing up but some of my friends would do gear Thursday night in the city Friday night they would be back on it Saturday night Sunday would be a bad day Monday would be a worse day Tuesday Wednesday would be pretty bad Thursday would be brilliant again they would just constantly leave that that cycle and I used to watch them and think like one the money like how the hell are you and the cycle of it I don't think a lot of them still do it to this day we see a lot of people are growing up in their 20s everybody's fresh faced so you could party for 3-4 days and still look the same but I see the effects of 90% of them now in their 30s struggling problem chronic pain I was blessed to have kind of awoken to it which I'm still privileged but it's just scary how far it goes so see when you left then what was the decision then was that a hard decision or was it easy because you'd seen so much it was actually so my partner at the time Albert's dad who was the UC he wrote a book and that did not go down very well he was the golden boy of that team they thought he was the one he spoke multiple languages fluently he looked the part and obviously bit pissed that he left because he was going to do them jobs now and there was nothing in the book there was nothing in there with trade secrets I would never do that in a million years there was nothing in my book that wasn't googleable and there was a few messages exchanged where they weren't happy obviously they knew we were together they didn't mind at the time when we were both serving but the moment we one left they didn't really like that and I just thought if I went back now I don't think I'd be welcomed with big arms and thank god you're back I feel like I'd be nervous and I wouldn't be looked after like I was and I started hearing again rumours about how they were all stabbing each other in the back and I thought I don't want to be a part of that because when I was there we all properly looked after each other like I don't know it sounds so crap but we were like a little family and because of the stuff that we would all do and the work we would do we stuck together and then I started hearing these rumours and I thought I don't want that, that's not what I know and some of the stories I heard I know are true and I know some that are far fetched I don't know the ins and outs of them all obviously but I didn't want to be a part of that so I left easy decision then but I missed work but it was an easy decision do you miss it now that you've kind of had time to reflect because we all want something in our life listen it's great being a mother raising kids and doing the right thing but if you've been that life independent doing your own thing part of you feel like your own little boss nobody knows under cover it's glamorous it sounds sexy but do you ever think that it doesn't seem as if you've been a boxer but boxers find it hard to retire because they're missing that sort of something the right thing for me I'm quite old school that for me is to provide and protect I prefer my misses to raise the kids in home school and do learn and educate and be there I don't think falling pregnant and having to rush back to work some parents have to go straight back a week later after giving birth I feel as if the connection should be with the mum learning and growing and understanding but you've been doing that that's the right thing to do is raise your son and be there a million percent but do you ever think fuck my life's a wee bit dull now it was maybe about two years I thought what am I going to do I need something because this is I was living off my savings which wasn't much so it wasn't like even for the financial side of it it was more just mental like what am I going to do and then my friend rang me and she was actually a TP so a test purchased officer and she said I've got this job, I think you would like it you need to be at this place at this time and I was like what's the day rate and she told me and I was like oh yeah I'll go I didn't realise it was an audition because that's not for me I've never been on telly in a million years I've lived my whole life under the radar and I got there and I said to the lady I realised what this is I didn't get it in a few minutes because I still didn't get it when I got there I'm really sorry to waste your time I'm not doing this TV people are very nice aren't they but you'd be so great no one talks to each other like that in the police she was really nice twisted my arm she manipulated me actually and she said just do a piece to camera just let me ask you some questions see how you get on we won't put it on TV and I was like okay so we did it and then I got another phone call from her saying can you come and film the pilot we really like the video can you just come and do the pilot I said is that going on TV no no no it's not going on TV I was like alright I'll do it but I'm not going on TV so she was like yeah yeah yeah and obviously the pilot was really successful Channel 4 would like you to come and I said no I can't do that just can't do it I said who else is doing it why is he doing it he wasn't in the unit when I was in the unit but everyone used to talk about him still I said why is he doing it he shouldn't be doing it and then they like sold us some names of other people and who they were where their backgrounds and I was like well if they're doing it I can do it so I did hunted and then that gave me my fix for a little bit but my day job now still we still do quite a lot of physical surveillance at our company and I won't give it to anyone else because me and Ben go and do it ourselves because we still need our fix of covert surveillance so we go out and do it and we've just finished a job actually in another country and I'm not allowed to talk about it but I really want to talk about it and when I'm allowed to I'll talk about it from the rooftops but we basically caught someone who was wanted it was amazing actually we got him was the translator for it because we didn't speak the language but she's she's trilingual and the information that she received would lead to this person's capture it was amazing so that gave us our fix we still do stuff like that because we're losers so how does it the cyber stuff that you're all doing now touch on that all the mad stuff see that job they talk about is that I wouldn't say secret but is that private yeah it was it was funded privately to just from normal people or from your side of things it was private and funded our services privately but in collaboration with a law enforcement agency so that happens then that it doesn't have to actually just be working for the police force we can go somebody old school who knows the job and we've got a job here that is legit looks on James Bond shit it was yeah it was really good it was really good they're like you can't say anything yet I'm like do you find it easier doing that with not the added pressure of doing it if it's private do you still get paid if you don't catch anybody yeah I still get paid but the pressure is higher because now we're not we don't have the protection we don't have it we can't walk in somewhere and ask for it they're not going to talk to us they can tell us to go that's it we don't have a warrant card anymore we have to just rely on them we have to ingratiate ourselves with them and rely on them telling us stuff so how does that work with you if you've not got the protection like could you get in trouble of pushing the boundaries too much because or is it still associated with the old job that you've still got enough room to push raise the bar is that a tricky one um yeah we're not allowed to push the boundaries so obviously we might make sure we write we do do it all still proper old school we write everything up because you just never know do you and we still write Ben thinks I'm a proper saddo but I'm like I need to do a statement and he's like what I'm like we need to write a statement because we did just go in there and I want to write that we've been in there at this time that day this is who we spoke to because you just never know do you so let's just write the statement and he's like okay I'm making right the statement but we do quite a lot of stuff like that especially surveillance stuff because we just can't let it go has anybody ever came forward and says you're like me I've asked her that no but I do always don't know but people always say are you not worried and I'm like look if these people wanted to find me they would have found me by now like I can't live under this rock forever and we live online like they really could find me they could have found me years ago anybody can be got and it's not as if people are going to commit more crimes because they know how dangerous you can be so do you think they're going to really put themselves forward and do what the times that I get to jail by the day I've not got in my mind that I'm going to go after the people who jail me you've done wrong fucks sake it's funny people always ask that you must be a bit nervous and I'm like I've always been like this anyway my friends it really annoys my friends if we go out for dinner or to a bar and there's not a seat where I can have my prime position where I can see everything that's going on I'll say let's go somewhere else because I like to sit in the corner of my back so I can see everything that's going on and they say when they talk to me I'm never looking at them I'm like that scanning but it's just a natural thing to do and Ben does it and sometimes we'll argue who has a seat I don't want it because I want it we'll just sit next to each other not always on edge but you're always aware of what's going on you've always got a bit of wear anyway especially in London I'm always on my toes I don't care where I am and I'm not a copper I'm not seeing a lot of that stuff that you've seen but I'm always listening to them I'm always going to be on top of things I'll always be calm I'll always walk my head I'll scan that place every event I go to I'll still scan it people are drunk people just know what's going on and I see I'm 10 steps ahead I see a lot of people in these places where I'm always I just know do you know what I mean? I just know the book then how was it writing it were you nervous? everyone used to say you should write a book and there's loads of male ones like UC book but it was Jordan again Jordan Wiley we'd be sat in the car filming hunted he talked to me about stuff he's done and obviously he's written a few books and then he would ask me questions and he was like you need to write a book and he kept going on and on and on and then I said oh I'll speak to someone and I'll say I did it and then someone messaged me and said have you ever considered writing a book? and they introduced me to an agent and he's really lovely he's really really well spoken and lovely and older than like us and he then put me he said can you write it yourself I was like I can't even speak English let like write a book and he said okay I can put you in touch with a ghost writer and she's fantastic and we wrote a book here we are I just think it's madness where can people buy your book? Amazon have it all the books like Waterstones all have it there's loads of independent websites online that have it that I didn't know either apparently you can buy it in other languages it's crazy but it's a fascinating story and like I say listen this is me this is what I've done it's fascinating that is intriguing these will do well undercover ones always do well meet a good person man I thoroughly enjoyed this chat like you're genuinely a decent person just before we finish up for anybody that's maybe in the struggle or seen some dark stuff that they can't really get over what advice would you have for them? speak to someone, yeah don't bottle it up I think I'm really fortunate the stuff that makes me worry now and like I said to you about that young lad that I think about all the time when I talk about that it would eat me up inside so I do think talking and it sounds really cliche but talking to people and people do want to listen like people do want to listen I've got friends that struggle have struggled and they'll talk to me about stuff and I'm the world's worst I'll give out all this advice and then not take it myself but talk, just talk yeah it's important Dany listen absolutely enjoyed that I wish you nothing but the best for the future stay strong and stay out of trouble I'll try