Good All right calling to order the city of Essex Junction Planning Commission meeting for Thursday, March 7th at 6 30 p.m. It is 6 35 so Agenda additions or changes we have an addition from Patrick. Yep for a animating infrastructure Bring my public art grant Okay, cool Do we want to add that where would we like to add that? agenda I Could either be what's not I don't know it's necessarily Update, but it could be letter D under business items if you'd like it can come at the tail end. I suppose or Start off with it. I can start off with it makes no difference. Yeah, why don't we start off with it? It's fresh in your mind. So we'll add that to the business items. Okay To the business items could we also I know it's getting repetitive But can we also talk about the rental registry from the last meeting place at least an update from Chris if you have any update? Sure, I mean I watched the meeting Was that gonna be in your map in your staff update at all or um, yeah, I that's for where I would have Fitted otherwise, yeah Should we so we'll put it in the staff updates then. Yeah, I think that's it. That's fine. That's fine We have a Patrick wanted to bring a grant proposal. Yeah, all right anything else any other gender changes Moving on to the public to be heard any comments from the public on items not on the agenda There's nobody. There's two people online. All right I see Lexi and Cora If anyone has something if anyone on the zoom meeting would like to say have a statement here they can raise their hand or Say something now All right Moving on to the minutes from February 1st We'll need a motion to approve the minutes. I will make a motion to approve second any Now we have discussion so any Anything anyone wanted to bring up on the minutes I had nothing. No, I have nothing Call in favor of approving the minutes as written I I'll oppose motion passes to approve the minutes And great moving on to business items and yeah, we'll have the grant proposal Excellent. Thank you So I think as I've mentioned a few times And I finally got around to reaching out to Michelle Bailey at the Vermont Arts Council Vermont Arts Council funds different public art projects and Sorry, I'm kind of logging at the same time and Few communities around the state have done this over the past few years, but like in our Gateway What do we call them our artery arterial or our gateway roads To do some kind of public art project that kind of welcomes people into the community a little bit An example would be like when you pull into Waterbury and you go around the little roundabout and you go under the train bridge And they now have that like train steel structure Another example would be I Think it says you're headed into is it Randolph Anyway, there's like a concrete wall and they put a bunch of like steel structures on it like fish or something like that and just kind of beautify it a little bit So I've noticed That we I think there's some opportunity for us here in the city to do the same In the one place that I that I keep coming back to in my mind Especially as I drive back and forth from Williston is that concrete wall Right that first home right as you come up the past the dam, and I don't know if it's worth a Google Street view or not, but I'm right up there It I think some type of mural or something or whether it's us I would prefer a mural But of course this is all open to a selection process whether it's a structure or not I Think Lends itself to a perfect opportunity for us to do some type of you know Placemaking creative create let that right there as you're pulling in just kind of like a mural that says welcome to Essex Junction of sorts and And so when I reached out to Michelle Bailey, I was thinking about a full-blown Like implementation grant and like going through a whole process and being like you know What is what is this entail and knowing that the grant deadline for those is like April 29th or something So trying to get ahead of it and she responded with This animated infrastructure and saying that this actually probably fits the idea a little bit better And what they can offer is a $5,000 design grant which would allow us to Basically put out an RFP for an artist And pay the artist to design and then go through the design selection And then we could apply for up to $15,000 grant for implementation to then pay that artist to install Whatever is designed They have a required project pitch like an a letter of intent that's due by the end of next week But I was looking at the criteria and I think we could probably pull it together pretty quick and based on what they funded in the past Which is what I was trying to pull up some examples of people were curious. I mean, I think this fits right in with What they typically do The only I think the biggest variable in all this of course is the homeowner and whether or not they own that concrete wall if it's Throw in the right of way Obviously, I think we'd have to approach them and let them know what our intentions were if we wanted to Move forward with this And let them know that it would be like a s6 jump, you know city thing that city would do the upkeep that we're just asking for Their permission to use the wall or if it's in the right of way that Maybe changes the conversation a little bit and says hey This is what we're intending to do with the wall on the street side that we're gonna maintain as opposed to Approaching the conversation of asking permission just But I think that kind of you know if any If we're in favor of that, I'm more than willing to try and put together The letter of intent, of course handing it off to the city to Chris and Jennifer and Regina to To take a look at and see if that's something we're willing to try and pursue. It's a tight timeline. I recognize that Is there matching is there a local match required? I Don't recall seeing something right off the bat Grants will not require a match but grantees are responsible for additional expenses above the grant amount So we'd put forward, you know a $5,000 budget. Yeah, but If we exceed what they can reimburse us for then we'd be on the hook, but I was trying to think of the other Entries into as each junction have anything and I can't think of anything There's a smaller concrete wall on the other side of 2a over by the turnoff to the high school That's maybe knee-high. I think for a little while and not right against the sidewalk but Nothing quite as Large as something like that that I think be kind of Eye-opening or not eye-opening but kind of like welcoming and I you know, I see it as like creative place making kind of like a Yeah, I'll welcome it to s6 junction sort of thing I mean I I support it. Yeah, I think it's a great idea. I don't I Don't know what we need. I don't know what we need to do as a planning commission other than say we support it It sounds like it's something that Staff like I know you're volunteering to prepare. Yeah staff with them Yeah, I'm it. I don't so it sounds like it might be up to Chris so I think anything that has any Financial obligation for the city will require approval by the city council, but that's You know, if there's no match and it's just what runs over I mean, I think they would be very likely to to support this idea if it's if it's feasible and If you could help with the legwork of getting this off the ground absolutely I'm willing to help with the grant management of it as well, right the city city staff in that as well To me it seems like I mean, it sounds like this this location. I mean, I think location is something that the planning commission should be set on and having a One single recommendation. I mean, I think this this sounds this location that you suggested Patrick sounds very Good, but also maybe a ranked location this in case like that the the Landowner isn't is isn't supportive or something like that. Yeah No, that makes that makes sense and it should also say that I don't believe that in receiving this it Renders us ineligible for any future grants from Vermont Arts Council. I think we would have to Show that this particular project is closed out or on its way to closing out before they would entertain another application from us So if we were looking at a potential seconds or third, you know, other arts Funding from them to fund other projects You know, I think some of the stuff that they've based on what they funded in the past Other locations around the city that might make sense could be The transit center and to do some kind of arts project there Yeah, the transit center to kind of beautify that spot a little bit But I know it's also going through its own redevelopment too. So probably want to wait for that redevelopment Potentially before we put something in so whatever we put in doesn't become temporary I know with You know, we've talked about potential stuff here with the the park that's supposed to go in in front of Firebird Cafe But depending upon timeline that could be another project that we just apply to the Vermont Arts Council to in the future If there's some kind of public art sculpture or something that we've looked at Potentially iron artist to do there That should go about that that park based on the the 20 the FY 2025 budget that's going to the voters is on hold. It's It's dependent on a handful of factors, right, but right, but I know we had talked about, you know, public art added into that as well It's also something that's come up numerous times of strategic by So I'm not sure if it'll get into the final document as a as a standalone I think there's probably language it'll get in there. I'm not sure an activity But it may become something that becomes more of a I wouldn't say formal, but at least some kind of formalized process Right. I don't I don't know much about grants. Would it would this grant lock you into the location that you? Fly for or I believe so That's what I was just trying to look at figure out the timeline and I believe the letter of intent is there There were one way of kind of betting the number of applications you received before you actually received the full application So they would it's called they called their project pitch And so we would pitch the project to them then they would invite us to complete an application So by submitting the project pitch We could also we could then choose not to potentially ask them But at that point what it would entail to change the location, but that makes sense It doesn't lock us in at that point in time and at this point to just submit and I do I absolutely recognize the short timeline But based on the feedback I got from Michelle Bailey see and what I've seen that they funded in the past this looks like It would likely be invited to apply for a full application. So What do you think about? Do you think it's necessary to try to get Concurrents by the landowner first or is that? Yeah, I Feel like that's all gonna kind of have to happen simultaneously right next week to report or approach the landowner And I also do see you know planning commission Playing a role in selection process. So the way I kind of see it unfolding is that there'd be as a planning commission and city we Put out a RFP call for artists as part of what we would use the $5,000 for As a call for artists and then once we've found that artist To then have them design maybe two three four different ideas based on the space and then having some form of Public process for selection, which is what the Vermont Arts Council really Ways heavily on is that public process? Or community input I shouldn't say they weigh heavily but it's a part of it so, you know, we can put out a Survey through from porch forum and also say that it's going to be you know the decision of Whatever installation goes in is going to be a public hearing at the planning commission So it's open to the public so that there can be general public input And that the selection will come down to the planning commission Jesus public So, but yeah, I do feel as though we'll need to approach and I'm more than willing to go and knock on a door and say If I got the backing of city staff and planning commission and say on behalf of the city's planning commission and city staff we're considering applying for An arts grants to put a mural on the front of the concrete wall the street facing side that the city would Manage and taint do you have you don't have do you have records of other? So I'll I'll have to ask The public works to try to see if they if they know where the boundary is and I when I pulled up on the parcel viewer the there's it kind of suggests that The right of way is it is a little bit, but it's not very accurate. I mean like that right that parcel viewer is just a starting place Yeah, because it goes through that house Well, there's always that like 20 feet from the midline of the road or like there's that 25 foot Buffer or something like that and it feels like it's close that yeah, it's Most which There could be a question of who owns the The retaining wall though it could be privately owned But within the public right of way. I mean that happens all the time I Think if they were supportive then all that doesn't matter Mm-hmm, right and if they're not supportive, I'm not sure you'd want to do this anyway, so Well, actually depends how how not supportive right, right? Yeah, absolutely, and especially if they Are the full owners of it. They're not supportive then the whole thing's dead in the water, right? We don't have permission to do it. So right absolutely, but yeah Yeah, I mean I definitely foresee this coming week being knocking on the door while simultaneously writing a pitch a letter of intent so For timing you're saying that this needs to Project pitch deadline is March 18th. Yeah, but this What does that mean it is not so that's not like We aren't Applied to do anything at that letter of it. No, that's just yeah informing the arts council that we would like to apply for Set a project and then they basically rank them and then they'll invite a certain number of Applicants to put forward a full application. I yeah, right. I'm trying to see if this needs to get on the city council agenda next Wednesday, which would be right, you know, I'm Tough but not impossible because it's Thursday right now It sounds like in theory it doesn't because we're not obliged to I think it maybe maybe if Maybe I can put I have a short memo to Describing just what we well, what's you're talking about here for the consent agenda for For this council meeting on Wednesday Yeah, actually I just texted Regina. She says it is possible to get this item on if If I have a memo ready for tomorrow I'm just trying to also confirm all of the yeah, so the full proposal if we're invited would be due June 3rd. Yeah, I Guess that yeah, that's right there. It's You mentioned alternatives locations, which if Just one that I was thinking of as I was looking at the map Potentially if you still want to go this route, even if the wall doesn't work out Make potentially the median on roof 15 as you come to town Having some sort of installation on the median could be Yeah, that's what I was thinking something as well. And then wait, aren't we isn't the council doing a branding? RP at some point Yes, but I'm not sure that Brand branding will probably not the budget for that is probably not enough to Structures, oh, I know I was just saying, you know, it could fit nicely into the internet preside Not that it would pay for it, but right so yeah, I think I think go for the I like the wall idea So is there second so is there second choice if all it doesn't work? I don't know of a second choice for a mural no and the only other large structure that comes to mind is Five corners beverage link it's that large warehouse that kind of goes off behind it I'm a mural on the side of that building central beverage. Yeah But it's storage facility that storage facility that goes behind said because you can see a large part of the side of that building as you go down to a Going. Yeah. Yeah But it's not like any No, but it could but I mean it's also it's it's not yeah, like an intro city, but it's a public arts Facing a major artery. Yeah. Yeah, so as you travel along towards the high school behind those homes The only other large Yeah side of open area. Yeah right there That comes to mind But you have to basically look through private property Yeah, I mean it walking in like they have the right to park trucks there, right, right? It's not certainly not an ideal But that's the another spot that comes to mind right, okay Which of course would need permission from The building owner To paint a mural on the side of their building but they do this Yearly yes council. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, the grant I approached her with Was the cultural facilities grant which is You know those Apple full their full implementation applications or maybe as an arts project I think it was the arts project grant actually that's a do it on April 29th But she responded with this and said hey, you know, this feels like it your description fits more into this and knowing how Early on you are in the stages you could get the basically the $5,000 planning feasibility design design grant I guess it's called You know and I don't think from that design grant we're forced into implementation. It just means We're moving in that direction. Yeah Yeah, I mean I could even I could even foresee even if the homeowner was supportive And it was owned they would want to know what the design was Absolutely, right. So they would invite them into part of the process as well for sure So we would even even at that point we would say well, they're supportive. Let's go for the design Brain because that's the whole point, right Get money. Yeah iron artist did a commission of design. Exactly. Yeah, whatever I don't I don't know what you're needed. What is needed from us if we need to do any official? Duty, but I say go for it I mean you could probably motion to to support this in general and Work, I mean, yeah With Patrick and see how far we get next week. Yeah, basically do I have a motion? I Don't know can I motion my own little? Yeah, I make them I make a motion to Start working on this What's it called animating infrastructure grants with the Vermont Arts Council second Hey, all in favor of supporting Patrick and Having him a fly for that or not apply but do his pitch for this pitch letter. Thank you. Hi. Hi All opposed Passes. All right We in touch Great also Regina thinks that Given that Matt just not needed Probably don't and and the fact that it's the full proposal is It's not due till June. We don't We don't have to rush us on to the council agenda for next week But you should probably yeah, we have in terms of like door knocking and and getting the Project pitch together. That's it's gonna happen. That's gonna happen fast. Yeah. Yeah, absolutely Great. Thanks, Patrick. Yeah, no, it's great. My pleasure Moving on to the next business item, which is the neighborhood development area update so Neighborhood development area expansion that is something we applied for that a Month ago and we had the meeting The downtown board met at the end of February and This was approved So I will just share what Just a reminder what the boundaries look like On top of our zoning map. I think that's the most useful version. So here it is It's gonna take a moment to catch up there, but yeah, it was I'm very pleased to announce that this this worked and that's we the neighborhood development area is now expanded to the Where the dotted blue line goes so that covers the highway arterial district Where a lot of kind of small medium-sized development opportunities are happening And it also covers Riverside by by the village where a few more Buildings are still going up Yeah, this was this was an interesting Ace that we put forward because we had stretched What was allowed in terms of the distance from the village center district by quite a bit You're supposed to go out to quarter miles Like one quarter mile only And that's specially approved and actually there's the their staff did not support Going out all the way to cover the highway arterial district arguing that said the highway arterial district Seems to go against the smart growth Requirements or smart growth goals of the program They also argue that given the distance from the the village center districts in this by By the book is kind of encouraging sprawl, but I put I Presented the the idea that we like we are You have to look at the regional context over here and what's already there in the fact that this is a long one of the strongest bus lines in the region and that a lot of development is happening And it is replacing Strip malls and and single-family homes there with multi multi-story multi-units Developments and the the board end up unanimously supporting the city's request so Now this is a this is an effect. That's great. That's awesome. Yeah, congratulations. Nice work Thank you. Yeah, very exciting considering what's going what continually it tries to get pushed through Legislature every year in terms of active 50 reforms, which Neighborhood development area I believe is part of part of that discussion as well And then I don't know Chris if you've seen or if anybody's seen what has come out of the homes for all Remember that grant that we tried to apply to are you guys so they did select five and they've finished with their study and I Think I Think the training might be next week. Yes next week. I'll be there. You're gonna go. Okay, cool Yeah, they did a presentation at our staff meeting last week and it's pretty cool what they're proposing and It falls, you know Because we have this neighborhood designated Development area what they're proposing will fall right within the NDA and allow for basically what they're what they've come up with is like pre-permitted projects for that middle missing middle housing anything from a one bedroom up to an eight bedroom and if Well, I'll let you go and then we can have a discussion maybe After afterwards and see how but I think it'd be a cool thing for the city to kind of pick up and see if there's anything in order to Kind of spurn a little bit more development to kind of like they what they're trying to do is prepackage Types of how types of development Fantastic, so like somebody could come in and basically say like oh, I've got this parcel of land But I don't know what I can do with it. Where do I start? How do I begin do I get a permit first? Do I hire an architect and as a city we could say well if you pick one of these four designs They're already pre-permitted and you can just hire a contractor and start construction tomorrow It's basically kind of the idea The steers catalog model more. I mean there's a little bit more involved. That's a very watered-down version of it But that's yeah, it seems like a pretty cool idea Yeah, and they want it to be like an ultimate toolkit that even if it's not pre-permitted Any homeowner anybody landowner could pick it up and it would walk you through step-by-step how to develop housing on your parcel I saw some I Had heard somebody pooch that idea before as if you want If you want to to make many cookies that look good the best tool is a cookie cutter Yeah, it's more or less. Yeah Well, it's what they've got what they've developed. So yeah, I'll let you attend and maybe in the next planning commission meeting We can have a discussion about what next steps would be that's it when they publish it That's great Look forward to that Are there any questions about the NDA expansion? No, the only question I tried to link to the Funding source on the letter and it comes up as a page not active So I don't know if that's just under community development or sorry finding source the downtown and village center funding directory That was in the letter if you if you click on the link it doesn't comes up it as to a 404 page essentially Not active page. Where are you finding that letter that letter? This came with the NDA. Oh Um, I will have to take a look I was just curious to see you never clicked it I was just curious to see what funding sources were available all right moving on to the EV charging Discussion So this item is largely Jennifer's item. I believe she is on Line right now Jennifer if you're ready Here we can't we can't hear you maybe it's our speaker. We might need a speaker on Now we lost everybody Yeah, try again Jennifer But it but too many tabs open at the moment so for this I tried to look into You know what are kind of other examples of legislation place that we can build off of as a model and generally what I found was that all these different municipalities were encouraging or putting forward Permitting process a this is something that requires Like it's an accessory structure in this way or whatever this is kind of coming in versus standard But I could not find any examples any of all the examples from this area of Vermont That Required developments to install you be chargers However, I did find out that South Burlington is looking into this right now They're talking about this issue with their energy council or committee and also responding with lawyers and the Regionally and seeing exactly what they can implement So this is kind of based off of what I was able to find and put together So First off there's the existing kind of such things we've talked about the RBES and CBES a little bit This is the residential building energy standard and commercial building energy standards So both of these are requirements that are currently in place throughout the state and Developments under these categories have to certify that they've met certain conditions for these And like sort of like it's more of a self-circuit so far Or a great development with a little bit less teeth because There's not a lot of oversight there's not inspectors checking to see if you actually have metal with these qualifications So There are some existing standards there I'm not into charging that's what we've talked about previously. We had certain all of the supposed to be Be capable Yeah, so as for actual life so kind of broken since different years of What level of requirement we want to have if we want to do it I'm going to go forward as Incentives just kind of recommend each other's Let's see recommended. Oh, sorry. First one is to recommend and promote voluntary compliance with early Yes, and CBES. So this is This is always something that people have to do but maybe Stating it more fairly Mentioning and like, oh, I just want to do this CBS whatever Including that in some form Overside will be able to work for me like in this version. We can't require anything but We can't just state that it exists and try to encourage you to do that Municipal incentives expedite of harmony There's a lot of other things that aren't exactly in the municipality of rebates listed for that And then towards the bottom These are more of If we are able to Anything That's something that we're still trying to investigate And look into exactly like how much authority does he has to work into developments? Because largely are As we discussed this week Was it with CCRPC Chris remember I I Asked via OCT Vermont's League of Cities and Towns. They're muted. They're They're municipal assistance program they have a Lawyer there that's that answers all sorts of questions. It doesn't doesn't mean that they're always certain about these things But yeah, his his read was that There I mean two things I his read was that the the The CBES and RBS are certainly state standards and And if they're not a part of a city's own regulations We we don't have the ability to enforce them Although we do require The the declaration like so after you build any any building Residential building the owner signs a declaration CBES a commercial four-story and above buildings They their engineer will sign a declaration saying that they this building meets these standards which Includes a certain number of EV Charging spaces and EV ready spaces But yeah, he says would probably need to include it in a building code which we don't have in order to To make it enforceable to make it enforceable Sorry Jennifer real quick just In reading this I was may I might have missed it, but did you see what does EV SE mean versus the EV capable? It wasn't clear to me I was trying to figure out EV EV SC is as far as I To my understanding EV SC is when they're when you actually have that charger to plug it to okay It it stands for EV electric vehicle supply equipment So it includes the whole set okay into your car Okay, well what we're talking about here is just EV capable parking spaces. Well, we're talking about What do we want to do? Okay, so it could be any of them. Yeah, okay because I have a number of And To see what their requirements were looking at look like to give a guideline up. Okay. Well, this is based on Option one is based on CCRPCs 2014 recommendations Syntax from there Option two for the current Existing RV ESES standards We're going to be referencing these things about it would be helpful to say well, this is what that requires That's what they say For the 2024 version, which will be adopted Jen I had another thought too as to where you might be able to find some regulations when it comes to development VHFA and VHCB with their affordable housing applications I do believe now that if they don't require it it having EV It's either EV ready or EV installed parking spaces adds a number of points to Developers applications, so they would have language around requirements and what they would look for in an affordable housing project that they would be seeking to fund and I can give you some contacts of individuals if you're to give you a starting point of who to reach out to if you're interested Just green energy buildings That also contributes to More specifically saying, okay, I need this building to be lead certified But yeah, that's that's helpful So it's VHCB You and yeah and VHFA both the housing finance agency and housing conservation board since They both along with yeah our program, but they fund The majority of affordable housing are not majority but a large portion of the affordable housing projects and then have these A lot of energy efficiency standards the VHCB certainly does puts a lot of them forward As you can imagine being a conservation and housing board But I do believe they're not required they're heavily recommended and they would certainly have I would imagine some guidelines and requirements as to how they What they look for in in the applications and the developments All right Thanks, I've made a note and I will look into it Do we want to have discussion or Jennifer? Did you want to go through this a bit more? Did you or can we open are we open to discussion at this point? I'm good to open discussion here. I'd like to hear things. Maybe I can learn about things a little more specifically based on better means for clarification I was just in my mind when I read this I was trying to think back to our discussion last time and Trying to figure out what this would look like in reality If you had a building, let's say 20 units No, 20 units would be maybe want to let's say to EV Parking spaces are fully operational charging stations I'm trying to think okay, so if you just put in the cape not the cabling but just the tube The conduit for the cabling and made it ready, but didn't have the charging station What would be the incentive later of? The landlord doing anything you just basically have the tubing it just trying to think in my mind, okay? So maybe you have one tenant who has a car maybe not maybe it's just visitors who come and if you just have the the conduit in there without the cabling notice in one of these you actually have to put in the The circuit break circuit branch and the circuit breakers in So you've got part of the infrastructure, but you don't have the charging station So that's a charging station being a requirement. I'm wondering what what would it look like, you know What what's the incentive for anybody to actually build a charging station? Yeah? Yeah, I assumed that the incentive for at least the property owner could be marketing, right? Like we have right charging capable spots if you get a car we could work on installing it down the line Maybe splitting the cost with the tenant or something like that but And the tenant also a tenant doesn't necessarily need a level to a tenant just needs a level one So you are you building it for the tenants are you building for the visitors? So again, I mean I did these are just sort of nuts and bolts and it made through how they would actually work it out. I think also to that point something to think about too is What is the property look like 20 years from? because This is I think the intention of this even if it's just capable is that 20 years from now if we're highly electric Electrified that it's that the infrastructure is there and maybe in the future. There'll be more incentives to put in The the infrastructure the actual electric Chargers, but you probably if you only have two spots out of 20 you're probably gonna have to tear up Yeah anyway put the other Yeah, well the my I'm reading that the So the 2024 versions Would be one capable spot for a dwelling Is that right you top of the RV ES or CVS that says both it's option three Referencing the amended 2024 versions of the RV ES and CB ES So required level to capable electric vehicle charging parking spaces for all new residential buildings For a single family home or multifamily building it would be one spot capable spot for a dwelling unit Yeah, so when you're just real and it's gotten your example at 20 unit Would have 20 spots cable Option three an option But that's that's what I'm understanding the intent of the these requirements Yeah, these requirements are to Planning for 20 years down the line To make sure all these spots can have charges in them without tearing up the concrete Let me let me ask another question Which in my mind sounds like a dumb question, but I'm gonna ask it anyway So You know my sister has an EV she plugs it in her garage. So it's a 240 volt charging station in your garage So if you're a tenant there all you need is a 240 volt connection So that's a level one charging station. That's a level two. Yeah, 240 is level two Is that what people have in their garage? Well, I mean they If some people have that in a garage, it's level level two would be basically what comes out what you use for your dryer Okay, so that's a level two. So level three is what's at Hannaford's Level three would there is supercharger super. Yeah, like the stuff like the over at level two foodies at Yes, yes, yes, and there's one in town of a six as well Okay But level two is probably the most common commonly used one now for residential purposes just Now that the cars have gotten bigger level one doesn't really do much Unless you aren't driving very far. So it does look like the the updated or the red line version of these the RBS is Really going towards level two I think one thing that's really That that's That that's really important over here is the fact I think the the RBS and CBES are being regularly updated and they are They are relatively strong. I think I mean they're relatively strict my my worry You know as we see development applications go through is that they're not always being adhered to and This this is what I think this is central to to what Needs to be figured out over here like it can the municipality either require anything or Would it I think at the at the bare minimum would it be helpful for the municipality just to always mention this You know every time a development application comes through if we're if on a staff report We have a section about EV charging and then preface it by saying this is not under municipal jurisdiction But we understand that in order to meet these requirements, which the state requires already Which you will self-certify This is how many spaces you need will you please include this in your drawings because we need accurate drawings no matter what you're gonna build RBS CBS so we've also attached this Packet, which is following the section to be charging Every place where it mentions or surplies To like anything related to electric vehicles So the first thing is to be RBS just one little checkbox. Don't even have to specify how many and then On the second page for the CVS First page of that document. There's a small section that it says, you know what the requirement is to a number of spaces And so of course it's often is usually more percentage based versus you know just saying that there's there's one for you probably get it So you can so like just showing that's the form that's on the other side of this So I find it's really helpful to To Refreshing see standards and say Yeah, this this exists because the the actual form doesn't feel like it has much teeth, but it doesn't exist in the same apartment But we we don't require it We require them to to to give us the sign To the cert the the signed copy of that. Okay, um But we don't have the power to check I mean When One station per dwelling unit in a 40 unit 30 unit apartment like that just seems like a lot Um now I could certainly see Where we would find it advantageous to have a percentage that may be like one for every 10 Housing units so that you they would be installing three stations But then maybe including the conduit infrastructure for the additional Units so that at a point in time in the future, you don't have to rip up the pavement per se but The conduits and the infrastructure is in place to add more I mean, I don't see that as a major additional cost And the conduits are to require for 30 units of housing 30 stations to be put in Yeah, I tell me 30 cable cable. That means that means having the oh having me for sure Oh, not the actual electric Okay, sorry, there's a slight misunderstanding. Yeah, but then on that I mean, so then I guess just to complete my thought then having some kind of requirement to put in at least One or two stations would be would be good Yeah, I brought this up in our last meeting of like because I do have an ev and that I think this is my own opinion But I think that like as an ev driver the most important thing Is that I have a spot to charge And whenever I go anywhere that like that's only two. I'm like, well, it doesn't make sense I'm not gonna like they're usually taken And I'm just not gonna charge and I have a hybrid so I can just drive on gas But it's like the ease of accessibility is like the most important part In order for adoption. So I would say like is our intention to encourage adoption Or is our intention to have minimal accessibility And so I think that depends I think maybe we could do Maybe we could do a mix with the the eb capable spots And then requiring a certain number Yeah, I also my first thought on this was I'm not surprised that south berlington is doing their own thing because I'm pretty sure they got rid of parking requirements For residential Builds and so I they're probably figuring out how does this apply right? If we don't have parking requirements for parking requirements, how do we enforce chargers? So I'd be interested to see what they do because we didn't go that far but We only require it's one per dwelling unit as well, right? What yes, yeah I think parking spot even for south berlington though even even When they don't require anything the realities that Well, sure. Yeah, and are are installing parking. Yeah, well, I mean, I think I think that's the big crux here is that Obviously we're in vermont. There is incentive to put parking in but you can't really get around Even chinning county without a car very easily But I don't think there's as much of an incentive to put eb chargers in for developers It sounds like what south berlington is looking at is also trying to figure out if they could ride on the coattails of Of the sea is the the cbes and rbes And to be clear cbes is what applies to many of many of the buildings we're looking at four stories and above all cbes and cbes I don't remember if jennifer included a link to the actual cbs standards But it's what I had on the screen a moment ago and it it actually requires a certain number of spaces to have the EV se the the supply equipment installed It's not many but it's it's basically along the lines of every space every space has to be Evie ready and then One or two needs to have the supply equipment and it's even to me. It seems achievable You know, we're nobody's gonna break the bank like by doing that It's just there are a lot of grant programs out there a lot on it for in the state has a couple themselves right To fund these sort of things too, right so So if we ride the coattails of the art rbes and cbes what What is the downside to also incorporating those requirements in the ldc so that we also um I think there's no downside as long as it is legal and the BLCT thinks that the land development code is not the right place for for this and because land because zoning regulation is only supposed to deal with location of structures and land use and As it relates to certain public interests They think that this would be this would have to be in a building code or ordinance um So I mean that is that I I don't know if I can confidently say that that is like definitely True and like that that's that that won't have any effect in the land development code because I think it does have to do with the location and place of Certain things structures. I mean if you if you can have a whole zoning system that requires Zoning permits to put in a EV charging equipment, which we we don't require that but if if if you're allowed to do that then I to me it seems a little bit weird that we wouldn't be allowed to You know to to require Compliance with or at least require Drawings that said that show that you comply with existing state rules Yeah, I mean there's so many other things in the ldc that are required that we can't And say to charging stations. It just seems kind of ridiculous I I think it is I think we we can ask around a little more and also, you know We'll check with our own municipal attorney to see she has an opinion on this. Um, yeah I do think at the very least with all the projects in the pipeline It wouldn't be too difficult for us to To comments on these things Even if there's no ability to to force I think I think if it is brought to the attention of of everyone in the room that that is technically requirements If it yeah, if it's a requirement if they're required to Do that, right? Then yeah, I think it makes the most sense. We should have that We should have that comment. It should be in the staff report right Seems the same with lighting look like lighting and all of that stuff that we That we check and at the drb checks on every application Yeah, I think the the only thing that the vlct was saying that is that they don't think it can be a condition of approval But I just to come back. I support what phil was saying is that I think eb capable I think should should be meant should be Maximized so or optimized so that all the spots could eventually be hooked up without tearing up the pavement But that we should promote eb charging stations Well, they equipped charging stations. I mean it sounds like that as of july 1st or june 1st, whichever one That was that this is that's part of the requirement Going forward with the rbe so well, yeah, I'm a little bit It seems to me a little bit ambiguous And I don't think that option three is ambiguous at all Required level two capable electric vehicle charging parking spaces for all new residential buildings One for dwelling unit Right. I mean option three is is basically saying that we would require we would put the Rb's es and or reference at rbes and cbs in the municipal regulations somehow Whether that's that's zoning or ordinance And then therefore have the ability to check for that and require that as a condition of approval Oh, yeah, I'm not I'm not saying that we would do that. I'm just saying that That I'm saying that that seems to be what's gonna be implemented as of july 1st. So even if we're only Even if we're only referencing it Yeah, um or promoting. What did we if we're doing option a recommending and promoting voluntary compliance with rbes As of july 1st, that's what people need to do to comply with rbes That's correct. Yeah I agree. It's a little confusing about what we need to do that's a city Okay Well, if I hear the room correctly like there's interest in pursuing like actually adopting the the You know matching the rbes and cbs requirements if it is possible If if there's a legal way to do it, right? Um And if that's You know, if the commission is interested in that we will continue to explore that Um, and in the meantime, I think it is You know, we're falling back back on what we can do which is which is incurred voluntary compliance and and bring you know bring these issues to lights and And just comments on on these things and mentioning them every time we we see a development application comes through Is that is that about am I hearing the room, right? Yeah, I think you summarize I assume that we could not offer incentives to If developers were not meeting these requirements, right? Because this is state Well, that was my question. Who owns the rbes and cbs state Right because I had a thought of like well if if it was a like if a developer If it was too much of an impact on a developer to do this Perhaps an incentive could say okay. Well, maybe a percentage of your spots are public That they open them up to public parking Which then helps the public But it sounds like but this being a state requirement. They would need to Meet this anyway They're supposed to they're supposed to they're supposed to like they have to sign a thing that you get a copy of that Since they're applying. Yeah, so I'm saying we couldn't offer incentives to not meet a statement, right? Um, I think when noose he has nowhere and they're zoning bylaws they they offer they count each Electric vehicle space as like 1.5 spaces for the towards their minimum parking requirements I I don't think at this point. I don't think it would make any any difference given that we've dropped it down to one um, and most developers are aiming for something higher than one so like Yeah, they're I don't think it would it really has any traction anymore Yeah, the only other thing I thought of that was like It's bigger than planning commission It's like city-wide would be like if the city somehow owned the charging Then the city gains whatever benefits or incentives there are for installing charges um That you know if there's tax credits or anything like that that's like a whole other Thanks for incentives for putting in charges around the city I'm only I only thought of that because my Mother was recently working with sun run in one of their models where they Install solar at your house But they own it and so they get all the tax incentives and all the benefits And it's like that's how they use that's how their model works because they own it but then you get solar power And you so that was just Some other way of incentivizing chargers across the city Yes, that sounds that sounds innovative and um But also I I'm not sure I've seen other cities do that on private property, but plenty of cities have on street public VV charging Montreal has it has them all over the place now It's like actually parallel parking spaces where you can drag over a electric hose to Charge up your car. I think as a city we should We potentially look into it. I mean, they're a good as I mentioned before a good state grants that would help offset the cost you probably don't know but is it being Considered as part of the transit or in transit center adding some EV stations with that new redevelopment That has we don't know yet, but the crescent connector will have will have two EV charging spaces We also have the public parking behind the fire for a cafe Right and that doesn't have any but we do have a public. We do have one here Yeah, so do we need to make any sort of decision on this or I think I mean if I'm hearing the room right that we're like that if it's possible We should explore we should continue to explore that like any legal options to add, you know to Add municipal requirements that match the rvs and cvs we we can do that Yeah, this was primarily to get information to you and get you back from about Willowable performance you think we should implement how we should proceed from here Yeah, yeah, I think that Does that make sense? Yeah. Yeah, that that sounds right. All right. All right. We want to move on To the we have a sign regulations sign regulations presentation. Yes Um so I don't have I I don't have a memo for this because I actually think this is easier In this format and maybe a little more fun But We have So we started by trying to copy What what burlington has already right, but there are a lot of exceptions or a lot of Situations that that I want to make sure didn't fall through the cracks So I took those regulations and I started testing them some of some of the actual signs out here seeing you know comparing what What it does and and the question for the planning commission is in these cases does this make sense? um And do we need to make any tweaks so I think The examples I'm going to show here. They start off Pretty simple and then I think they get more ambiguous as we as we go on awesome So Yeah, and I would say as I did this I also talked with some of the Municipalities around us to see and I looked at their regulations to see how they differ other than just burlington's They're like they differ quite widely. So clearly there's no right answer. It's just you know what What fits for for this community? But we got to watch for unintended got to watch for unintended consequences So example one over here These I think they consider these these are directional signs. They're saying, uh, I think there's a there's yeah, this is this is what the the sign actually says. Um, I think it's on the right of way but Under the current the 2023 land development code these are considered directional signs and um, there's a three square foot limit for them Uh, so they're not in compliance and under the proposed amendments, um There's something similar. Um, it actually requires it to be Two square feet or smaller And oriented towards internal use. This is clearly not oriented towards internal use. So not in compliance and I think You know once it gets through in my If if this sounds good if this makes sense the the enforce like this would be subject to enforcement.   Yeah Oh, sorry back to the actual sign. Yeah So is this so the the area is being determined by Like which how are you how is it measuring here the area of the sign? Is it from the base? Well, it's three square feet. It would be any any piece of the I know but I think one The the intention of that of the directional sign Um allowance is you know, like within a parking lot of it says, um More parking that way or something. Yeah, but those signs are yeah about this size. They're not That just you basing the sign off of I guess architectural salvage warehouse as one component not three separate pieces So if this is treated This is measured the same way as a freestanding sign because like really this is a freestanding sign. I think under under Um, if they were trying to make something like this permanent It would be all the parts that have lettering from the the top piece to the bottom So from the 11 maple piece to open nine to five You would take the area of that and all the spaces in the middle That would still be considered a part of the sign, but the post at the bottom that would not be considered Right. No, I can I can totally see it. It's all With the same entity, right, but it seems I mean I I'm gonna assume that that That's uh, and this makes sense like this this looks pretty janky. Maybe it shouldn't be allowed. Well, well, and now that the Connectors going in they might be more opt to putting something out directly in front of their door instead of something Offset that is trying to direct people into a driveway Yeah, and actually they have all these signs already Um, you know, what's over here is already done. You know, these are their official signs This is what they have a permit for Um, yeah, then then I was right, you know, I I walk my dog by there every single day And it just becomes background. I mean when you show it like this is like, oh my god Yeah Okay, excellent Next example, so This is an advertising banner. It's kind of like it's it's it's on the outside of a building But you don't really see it that it's not that apparent from the street It's on 27, uh park street Um, under the current ldc. It is not allowed because it advertises products Uh, but that is not content neutral. So actually that doesn't quite that The the stuff there's no stipulation about what about advertising versus not advertising it proposed Um, amended ldc This probably I think would count as a temporary manner. So it would Only be allowed for a certain number of days that you would have to take it down um to me that doesn't seem to be a big problem like this is Probably the enforcement priority for something like this would be pretty low because it's not you don't really see it from the street I mean if someone complains them and and if someone complains and we tell them to take it down It also doesn't hurt them that much so Like to me that's kind of that that seems to be That seems to suggest this is not This is not something that we have to worry too much about Okay, um Uh, stop me if there's a if if you want to I mean I would you could also add A size component to this Right because you could I'm not reading a size component. So you could have a temporary banner that is Gigantic. Oh, there's a size in me. There's a size limit. Oh, there is a Yeah, I this is the summary of what I thought was most pertinent and I think you should all have a copy of the uh, the Land Development Code amendments in word format. Um, it's much easier to to look through that and then in the previous pdfs. So Uh, yeah, yeah, I mean the only thing I'm thinking of is how this Is in comparison to like a um Uh, like a quickie mart or a gas station that has advertisements in the window But I guess those aren't So thinking about not quite necessarily attached to the window. They're usually like awesome I get yeah, I guess I'm just thinking is that For for banners the size that you showed Do we really care if they're temper? right And so maybe Right, it's really just the size. I think at that point that matters So you might be able to permit this as a wall sign Right. I mean what material is made of Is I mean, I think it is it is regulated, but I don't think you're not like a floppy material It isn't excluded. Yeah, I guess that's kind of where I was going to right then would you look at like a gas station that says well You can only put up that advertisement for that product 20s a year, but they leave them up 24-7 Right. So if you were to permit this as a as a part of a wall sign, then it would add it would go towards the total swear footage allowed And we will discuss that more in another example as a wall sign because I think that is that's a hard one There are some decisions to make there Um, this is another example lots of this is kind of actually what you're talking about This is multiple banners kind of being used as a wall sign. They're not They don't have permits for that, but Under under these under these rules if they leave it up for more than the temporary The the the temporary amount of time they would have to get it permitted as a wall sign Seems reasonable, right? Yeah So here we go This one, uh, yeah, so This over here is I think under the current rules we would count that also as a banner, but banners are not allowed on utility polls uh Doesn't say whether or not that utility poll is private or public Under the proposed amendments, this would probably just count as a temporary sign. So, you know, it would just be a It would be allowed for for a certain amount of time Um, but they can't have that up forever. I mean to me, it's not The end of the world for mcdonald's to not be able to advertise code bruise on on their utility poll for Most of the year they've got plenty of of uh places to advertise um, so, I mean Does this make sense like that that they can't just Have something up there forever Yeah, yeah, yep Yeah, I mean, okay opening the door to them putting that sign on every utility So then I was testing this this example, you know, this is a publicly owned banner. Um We have an except we have an exemption right now that says special event signs and banners in the right way, uh for fine And then I just double check to make sure there's a similar exemption Uh, and yes official signs put up by the municipality Or at the direction of a municipality are fine This is a fine one neon sign neon window signs at the good stuff store So I am not here to talk about the The only sign I'll say over here the only sign that has a sign permit is this that says good stuff That's as a wall sign everything else does not have a permit, but according to our current rules You don't need a permit. Those are window signs Um, which you're allowed to cover up to 25 percent of your windows. Um, no Permit required. I think the Internally illuminated signs like neon signs. Um, there's there are limits to how many I think it's like one or two If it's in the village center district or anywhere else You just treat it like a window sign you can have you can cover 25 percent of your windows with Neon signs and I I thought surely under the Under the burlington rules that would not be allowed, but actually I brought it's also allowed. I brought this up. I said 25 percent of your windows if it was neon would be a lot It would be a lot of neon right The only difference with with burlington's rules is that a permit would be required and To me it seems like Yeah, I mean that that that's that's the that's a big difference. Um, so Yeah, so I I think there's some policy choices here for for window signs Two parts to this should there be a quantity limit for internally lit window signs? And you know these neon neon signs are considered the internally lit window signs um, should permits be required and Should there be limits for non illuminated window signs? Um, and also should permits be required right now. We don't require permits. Um, as it's written right now We could start requiring permits for everything and that includes let's see like let me let me show you like these Right here would count as non illuminated window signs and to me it would be a little bit annoying for us to have to permit those um, it's true But I I I wouldn't mind I think it At least requiring permits for illuminated signs. Maybe could make sense. Um, and I don't know if you want to allow them also, um A rule about it being on uh, certain stories certain levels first and second First and second first and second also under the burlington rules. You're supposed to leave Most of the space that's like I like head level clear So this is this is where I mean I I could really use feedback. Um Yeah Yeah, I mean I would hate to make a decision based on like Making it look like we're taking on one commercial entity, uh, I just wonder if there are other examples around the city where There are illuminated signs as well. There are many that really the only example. There are many open signs Um, but that I mean there are there are some open signs uh there So I will say when new ski adopted Sign like zoning bylaws that now prohibit um Neon signs all together There are a lot of them that are grandfathered there. Um Actually, I'm looking across right now. I think actually that's inside the building might So Aesthetically in my opinion aesthetically the example you provided that's not my aesthetic But in my opinion, I don't think it creates a nuisance And I don't think it creates a nuisance based on where it is So it points to a main artery of the city That already has a lot of In my opinion if it was point if it was on the sides of the building pointed towards other Buildings next to it that would create a nuisance And so I'm curious if there's any way to kind of incorporate that into The way Well, there's certainly I think nuisance is one is one Prime reason to regulate things, but also I mean aesthetics is is a valid reason as well Why do why do we care that those feather banners are have to be banned or or uh Sandwich boards have to be put away or That part of it is aesthetics and business development and you know an image Yeah, basically establishing Ground rules that that's that amounts business in general. I mean I'm gonna say somewhat similar thing is Personally, you know, I don't really like that The fact that it's on pearl street is different if it was Right around the corner here in the village center. I would find it obnoxious But that's my personal opinion Whether or not I want to regulate that is another thing I also find I also find window signs Not a non illuminator window signs that covered 75 percent of the window In the village center. I find that personally difficult because I think the character of the village center loses its aesthetics when you have the windows completely covered up But that's my personal opinion whether or not I want to regulate that are Yeah, it's difficult to say I mean, I I I don't even notice that when I'm driving by I'm not walking by But I walk by all these places around here And the type of it fits the type of business Like that aesthetic fits the type of business Yeah, exactly, right? It's you know, it's marketing in its own way and branding So could it be a zoning thing districts? Well, it's already not allowed in the village center that many yes Well, actually It was under the old we'd have to make sure that is the case if you if that's the intention Um, so okay, maybe should there be quantity limits? in certain districts I mean, I think I think that would be something to consider. I mean, I Again, if I'm walking around the village center, I don't want to see 16 neon signs in the building Um, but you know, like you said, there are some open signs There's one right across the railroad tracks. Yeah mango. For example, there's two I think That doesn't bother me but If they had six Yeah, it's a little excessive and I guess also this example is showing You know one type of neon sign, but I've also seen in burlington like pretty creative ones about For other businesses like a noodle shop with yeah, like chopsticks that move around Absolutely Okay, so then let's say so I can I can revisit this quantity limits You know, I'll think of something that that that seems to make sense Yeah, I put it in the next draft. That's uh, you can see um So we'll we'll try to keep the village center districts Low on like, you know limited to one or two per her business and as we go along pearl street Maybe relax limits. Yeah, and it trains it orient to district. Yeah Okay, would you exclude an oak not to dig deeper? Would you exclude an open sign? from that No, I think from that number like one or if you're only let's say you're limited to two would you exclude That classic open sign or closed sign from that. You mean that would be an additional one I'm not sure that I'm not sure that that would step on content neutrality If we like it's a good point, right? Yeah, like a scientist I mean in under most circumstances, I don't know why burlington also has directional science separate Maybe maybe there are certain categories, but I figured they would have thought about it Okay That was a very deep discussion. Okay. Um should permits be required so Or for illuminated science should permits be required? Right now if you don't say anything the answer is going to be yes because that's what that's what the draft says Is that what you want? Yeah, I For illuminated science. I I I wouldn't mind having a handle on that I I Think it would be Pretty burdensome burdensome to have to check on all the non illuminated Window sites. Yeah I agree Well, that makes sense. And then you're the permit ensures that they fit the uh code so It meets the deep discussion we just had Okay, so Would it be So for non illuminated science um Would we say this Would you say this 30 coverage? What specific Limits on window area at head height is good enough? Like I think it's kind of good enough Mm-hmm. Yeah, and then permits require I I would prefer if there if permits were not required for non illuminated I don't think there's a need to that. That's fine. Excellent Okay, next one. Um now we're getting into things where we're actually we're actually dealing with complaints and and uh This is related to some of our enforcement actions, you know, whether or not an alternative A pathway to compliance is being offered So in this case, uh Asian mark, let's say I has two wall signs I mean in reality, this is two wall signs, but actually one of them was treated as a Uh was permitted as a directional sign By the previous administration, but I I don't really think I mean that that's what I think um, it certainly doesn't fit the dimension requirements for the uh for uh The directional sign so Right now the LDC says you are only allowed one wall sign per business Um, and the size is based on the length of your ball Uh under the proposed amendments. There are no limits on quantity You can split your total allowance into as many as you want um so Does that make sense? It does to me. Yeah Um Yeah, so oh, yeah, how does this compare with other jurisdictions? Burlington seems to allow a total total area limit South Burlington allows up to two wall signs for tenant. Uh, they They last worked on their regulations in 2010 Um, and they were really thinking about uh Williston Road. I mean, which is to me a pretty similar situation to uh into Pearl Street um They are revisiting revisiting again and thinking of increasing into three wall signs per 10. Um, but only for single tenant buildings And everything else would be two um, but if We go with Burlington's rules, it's as many as you want Okay, and then when new ski allows primary and secondary sign, but they were they, um They require them to be quite a bit smaller, but they are also a much more urban context So no limits no quantity limits. That's a default right now Do you require requiring permits? The permits would be required. Yeah, but it's just quantity limits. Um, right now it's one Uh, but so what would Give you an authority to deny a permit if it goes over the total The the total allowance square footage And and there is a total square footage Yeah, and we'll we'll talk about that in a second. How how big that and so one wall sign no permit required more than one One wall sign permit required, but right now you're only allowed one if you try to apply for a second one You're supposed to be denied this this to me seems to have said yeah, I mean This was treated as a directional sign, but I don't think it technically would have called for sure What but the question we just answered was No, we said no permits for No, there are permits for the non illuminated wall sign. No a non illuminated Windows windows on hope. Sorry. Sorry. Yeah, okay. It is a wall sign. This is on the exterior much more. Come on. So keep up It's getting late. Sorry um okay So if I'm not hearing strong opinions on this then we'll go with burlington's no top no limit on quantity Mm-hmm. Okay. And then so here small wall signs like how do the regulations Deal with size right now. So this little Supermarket here is just for as an example. It's 12 that's that size 12 square feet. Um Right now You are allowed Uh What is it? So it's the number at your linear feet Of façade times 15, which is really thinking about height times 5 or 20 square feet. Whatever is bigger so There In this situation, they would have just been They would have been allowed 20 square feet. I mean, so so they have this is 12 They would have they were allowed to make it a little bit bigger Under the new rules, there's no It doesn't start at 20. It just It just It's just two, uh, two square feet per linear foot of façade. So in this case 25 square 25 linear feet of façade. Yeah, this would would be about 50 square feet maximum sign size so basically, I think The the low end minimums are Work a little bit differently under the burlington rules. Uh, you know, basically the burlington rules allow for larger Signs for small and medium size storefronts um Does that make sense? Is that I like that. I mean my personal opinion those Small signs on that large façade You can barely see that but yeah, it doesn't doesn't really make much sense And it's a small business They could use some help So in essence, so the uh, the one you're referencing is the smallest one right next to the wall This dinky little one. Yeah, and that meets the 20 square foot requirement at the moment. Yeah, that's 12 This is actually 12. So, you know, you would be allowed to yeah, maybe they'd be allowed to like triple it quadruple it Right. So under the burlington rules, they would be allowed 50. So really like it would be the whole It would be like the width of their whole storefront two feet, right, but we also have limits on the length of the storefront Wasn't that on the next slide So they wouldn't be able to actually span that you utilize that full They would I mean under the under the the square feet per linear foot Two square feet per linear foot, but like if you go So per your if you're linear feet if you're 25, uh, linear feet and width You and you have a sign that is two feet in height And 25 Square 25 with that would be the that would be you would be using up the full space Yeah, I guess I'm just thinking of it proportional like you're not going to get much visibility Yeah, you're not if it's two feet two feet, so they're probably going to go Let's give me like six by eight. Well actually They if you look at if you go down church street in burlington, there's plenty of examples where like a restaurant would have Uh About two by eight They would actually some some of them are just the width of their entire storefront One or two feet and just single, you know letter lettering that goes across, you know, it could It could look nice sometimes Well, yeah, man But I'm just in this particular example In that example you gave yet because you're walking next to it, but from hurl street looking in At that distance a sign that's two feet Like I don't think they they despite going the 50 feet. They're not going to gain very much so they would Yeah, and all likelihood go higher which the right requirement would be they wouldn't be able to span full right right right Yeah, the property might also have its own restrictions. Awesome tenant signs true. Um true I The low end seems fine. I would I would say that like as we go Maybe you're going to get that next as we go bigger. Yeah, it makes sense. Maybe it makes sense to have setback included in that That's that's a good thought Because the next thing I have here is um Large wall signs. So this is the example probably of one of the larger ones. Uh, this is 121.5 square feet They right now They they would be allowed Uh 169 Square feet So under the proposed rules So under burlington's rules um There's there's a there's a 200 square foot, uh absolute maximum I mean, this would be under it, but nothing could go beyond that. How does this compare with other jurisdictions? South burlington has an absolute limit limit of 100 square feet Um, and when new skis is way lower, but when new skis, you know, you're looking at things Pretty close pretty close as well so This 200 really makes sense um I think that's uh Setback ideas and yeah, I think because to me that looks fine big blocks In fact, if it was bigger it would look fine right in my opinion But it's set it's set so far back from the road. Yeah, if that was If that was good times, it would be a different story. Right. Yeah Right. I mean it would be this way front. Yeah So I think potentially seeing what setback could do to it. It would be interesting to see What some of this would look like In the village center too. Yeah right like what What does the biggest sign that? So so 10 here could have or a building here could have So good lots facade would be the length of the building Yes, yes, it would it would be the length you mean big big lots big lots. No, no, no, go back to good times Good stuff, that's good stuff. It would be the whole width. Yeah, the whole width the whole length of the building Right, it would be allowed a massive sign So they could have 200 square feet there If they could fit it under the wind, I don't think they would have uh, maybe maybe because the burlington ones The regulations are two square feet per linear foot That looks like 50 yeah I don't know. I don't know exactly how but it would be it could potentially be a lot bigger unless there was some rule about setback Yeah, could they install a uh neon flashing light sign on the roof? That was 200 square feet. No because the illuminated requirement is only three square feet Oh Well, that's for a window. Uh, that's for window. I actually had to check I so would you have a neon? Sign that's on your facade. Oh for an illuminated I don't think you can but I have to check You could just see them putting something on I mean well flashing is definitely not Even if it was just a neon, uh, yeah It considers the development of that hotel. They're gonna want to put signs up too So I will check that um But in terms of size limits, what do you have any Kind of concepts for how it could be worded or like what the parameters could potentially be If it was by by setback Or should it be by zoning district? I mean everything If it's by zoning district, it's it's easier to incorporate because there are a lot of different regulations by zoning district But at the same time zoning district is not necessarily like To dia is supposed to aim for a future where that kind of setback doesn't exist anymore Yeah, that's what that was why like I didn't think about some district because good stuff and big loss They're the same zone. Yeah, right. That's why I thought setback. Yeah I Mean certainly I think It's possible, but if you If you don't have any wording in mind, I can I can try to I can try to come up with something I don't have any wording in in mind except for the further back you are the bigger your son can be Word for word technically that's the Especially for older folks in that platform Okay, right, I mean, I can't think of any Jargon can go with that either. Yeah, or what? Okay, so next example here then multiple types of signs so can you have A blade sign, you know little little little um, what we currently call projecting signs little ones Plus the wall sign plus a window sign plus a free sending sign right now Um Apparently we have the the community development department has has Just by default been allowing up to two Permitted sign types. So because window signs and don't require permits. They've never, you know, they they haven't counted towards this Uh, but the the application form allows for two Sign types But when I was looking through the ldc, I didn't actually see anything that That materially restricted the number of types of sounds that you had so under the um Burlington rules, uh, certain combinations of sign types This is this is in that table where it was saying like can you combine this type and that type? Certain types are pro cannot be combined But other than that you can have as many idea as many types as you want Um Oops, sorry. This is the next thing. Yeah Does that make sense? I mean to me, I don't see a big problem with that, but does that All right Makes us to regulate the combination, right? Okay, then you wouldn't be And But basically no big good times But you put all those neon signs and then a giant projected lit up sign on top Like no, you only get one that combination Um Yeah, no it makes sense to be in certain combinations Yeah, it's fine. Yeah Okay, and now here we go sandwich boards. This is this is probably the hardest I mean, this is the piece of enforcement that that has been probably on the minds of Many city counselors and probably many many people on the streets who think about this kind of stuff if they do um but it's also being difficult to Deal with in the absence of you know, a clear set of rules in the ldc that that offers Businesses a pathway into compliance without just being like you can't You can't have anything like That you're trying to do so Right now the limits are you have to have it maximum 15 feet from the door only allowed during business hours um And to be honest majority of them are not in compliance um Many of them are far further than 15 feet from the door and Especially when they're more than 15 feet from the door. They don't bring them It's pretty heavy Under the burlington rules, it's pretty similar 15 feet from the door only allowed during business hours And That and let me just go back to the pictures over here This over here, you know This this is further down. I mean, I probably know I'll know where where this is. This is further down pro streets Um Some of these businesses are at the back of the building So this is like their only I mean, they they they could vie for some space on the on this wall side. I mean this freestanding side, but For whatever reason they You know, they don't they aren't some of them aren't able to get on that and uh Right, this is certainly cheaper and easier um We've got this one over here. That's the the real estate guy that puts jokes on the the board Apparently some people really like that But this is more than 15 feet from the door. It's out all the time. Um in order to Under the under the proposed rules and under the current rules as well This would have to be a part of the main sign They would have to redesign their their their freestanding sign to incorporate the marquee um This sign over here more than 15 feet sometimes I see it sitting on the uh The walkway directly. I mean that that wouldn't be allowed under all under existing or proposed and Yeah, so What do other municipalities do 15 feet And does does 15 feet from the door? Really makes sense given our urban form Uh when new ski does not have a 15 foot limit uh south burlington Also, it doesn't have a 15 foot limit, but they say something something along the lines like it needs to be Actually, they're they're they're thinking of changing how they regulate sandwich boards right now They're treating them as temporary signs, which means they can't have them out for more than a certain number of days um, but they are Trying to adopt something that would allow one per business um At a reasonable distance from uh, their their their main entrance the principal entrance or something like that What is the main complaint about? I Don't yet. I don't hear much reasoning behind the complaints. I just hear that there's a sandwich board out. It's annoying. It's Yeah, it's not a lot. It's annoying but I think You know, if I were to guess though like aesthetics is a part of it when you have a lot of these out Look, you know, it does what's cluttered. It looks cluttered and looks a little cheap. Um And they do blow over, you know, they if they're not placed correctly they get in the way of pedestrians part of that is You know, just making sure that That they're placed in in the location that that's allowed but Yeah, I mean, I think that was kind of what I was getting at with wondering is that personally, I don't see an issue with them but I can see I could see a safety issue if they get blown over into Sidewalk into the road Um, which I assume is why there's probably the regulation that they'd be brought in Well, there's also hours There's also the fact that they kind of like we require permits for free standing signs is if this is If we're lax on sandwich boards, it's kind of a way around it, right? I mean Why why aren't any of these made to be Part of the free standing sign that's Especially if if the new rules allow for more square footage um That's I think that That's an argument I would hear I mean, I think I think the regulations are fine. Like I mean, I would even say the 15 foot does seem a little restrictive based on some of the properties I mean, I wouldn't I would think it's also a safety issue if you have to keep your sign So far in from the road that people need to like, you know, like turn in their heads and squinting trying to see what it even says That's what I was thinking. That's a safety issue. Yeah Well, but then You could argue the purpose of the sandwich board You know, is it is it for advertising for here's my business or is it a short temporary? Uh Yeah, right. I mean, I'm I'm just saying like yeah, I would even increase the I would increase the 15 foot limit Just to for more to be in compliant because it seems like at least from your images It seems like those are decent places for it Even if they're more than 15 feet and I would still consider them a temporary sign I would just I just think like it's an like I just don't think you have an enforcement nightmare Like I don't think you can I don't know how you enforce all that Right, it's like revenue stream, right? You just go around start collecting them after business hours and people have to come and $30 to take them off Toy in your car So I would like but if it's a safety issue then blowing over I would say like getting sandbags to hold them down and I mean, there's actually a stipulation in Burlington rules, which which we put in the draft that says during high like The owner is required to um, take them away. Yeah before high wind events. Yeah I I do think it is part of City councils of I don't I mean they've never really said I This bothers, you know, some members of council so much, but we certainly hear About sandwich boards. Maybe it's just it's so obvious that like if we if we have a certain rule and it's not being followed, right? So Yeah, I have lots of rules that aren't being followed. I just don't know if sandwich boards are the place to put the energy That's just my point is like it's If 15 feet doesn't make sense what makes sense. So would it be What Burlington is thinking of just a reasonable distance? Well, I mean I come back to what Phil said I was I was just thinking I kind of read them as I'm driving on Pearl Street But you can do that without moving your head very much But if they're up against the building and people are especially the joke one everybody's used to the joke one You know, it it's a hazard So some kind of reasonable distance, I think it's appropriate Because each property is completely different as well I I do think though that and I don't know how you want to enforce it, but you know Bringing them in after business hours. I think I'll be I mean another example and think I've already been off the sandwich board or not But the vfw and how they advertise their events their fish fry Well, yeah, I mean they put out there. It's all done with those little letters I don't know if that's a sandwich board. I can't picture it at this moment That would right. Yeah, I mean, I would yeah, I would say as long as it's on their property and not blocking any right-of-way See why it should be Okay Okay, so in the draft I'll change it for 15 feet something like a reasonable distance I mean, I'll talk to supper and see what it's specific language. They're thinking of um, but keep the key but We're sticking with the you must take it in when you're closed. Yeah Yeah, and maybe I don't I don't know if we mentioned it, but a limit I would assume it's a limit of one. There's actually It's a little complicated So it's one for business, but it also says it must not be within a certain number of feet of it So is that of another sign or another another sandwich board? Yeah, but so like who who's there first, right? I mean I It's a little bit hard But I also get like if you go to the big lots mall of every single business puts out a sandwich board I mean, I that seems a little ridiculous to me Okay Any more comments on sandwich boards Oh, I wanted to answer something from the previous section Put something on the chat Oh, yeah, there's something in the chat as well Yeah, that's me So, uh, yeah, somebody asked if, uh, wall slides, uh, be eliminated and, uh, just for better patient There's a line of the wall signs saying if eliminated wall signs may be Externally eliminated or badly so they do have options for Elimination So actually that means they cannot be they cannot be, uh, neon Yeah, it's called direct elimination. That's that wouldn't be Loud Yeah Okay, yeah, just wanted to go back in Thank you um, okay Next issue multi business freestanding signs so To me this this is kind of an important consideration if you were to clamp down on Uh, Sandwich boards like this is kind of people's pathway to compliance, right? They want to still have visibility from the street Um, and if you want to do it in a more permanent looking way This is how you allow it right now. Um, so the limits is one per lot in most cases or two for large You know for for large properties um The size limit is as follows It's under the Burlington rules you would only be allowed one Maybe that's a little Maybe that's a little extreme but Yeah, I think South I looked at south burlington's and south burlington allows one freestanding sign per entrance per lot As long as the uh entrances are more than 300 feet from one another so effectively, you know, I think it would it would end up being a two for something like that the The big post office square mall What makes sense in this case? We're a six junction To the post office square seems like a bit much. They actually do have two already. Yeah Because they have two entrances they have two entrances one of them This the secondary one is required to be a lot smaller. That's probably why it's Not as noticeable um Yeah Yeah, I mean, you know Being in the same example, but the other side of the street with the sx market What what's considered a business, you know, would you then be limited one? Does that mean the sx market has to go all the way down by the bfw? Or can they put a secondary one? Closer to their market. Yeah, it wasn't over property. Yeah, I wasn't thinking of limiting it to just one I was thinking maybe the south burlington is like maybe at 500 Oh just expanding expanding. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah Yeah, I was just thinking post office square seems like that's a little small For two restaining signs At least the same the size that they currently the bigger one that they currently have But yeah, your example of the other side that seems much much more reasonable. Yeah I don't know how we would I think I probably need to see an example of what 300 feet looks like. Yeah That might be hard for you to do in this moment But I'm with you. I think it's expanding that Three to 500 maybe um think of other So this okay, what I yeah, this is this is 476 feet right here. Okay between these two entrances So actually under the south burl if you if we went with south burlington rules instead of burlington's rules This would probably Well, I mean, I guess these two entrances because it's more than they're more than These two entrances are like 200 I'm trying to see if they would get two or if they'll get three No, well, I mean, I guess the other question what it is defined as per property because it is the sx market there It's all one large one building So I get are you probably depends a lot For lots there are three entrances to a lot. So they would only be able to basically choose The one by vfw and then only one of the other two Be eligible. They wouldn't be able to have three because the No, none of these are distances Or if you just said you're allowed to Not to not to you Well less than 500 feet So if we if we if you think backwards, what what do you think? Like a property like this Should it should the answer be one two or three? two two two So then sticking to something that is similar to our existing rules actually You know or or some version of south burlington's would slightly expand a gap Would achieve that so I mean I can try to draft up something that would functionally Results of this having this situation getting two. Yeah Okay um All right, we we should be approaching the engine um That's too bad. This is fascinating Actually, I think that's that's really it. Um, you know, I just I So you all have a copy of the draft ldc amendments, I will I will draft up some of the changes based on discussion today, but I would really encourage you to Take take a close look at that and just think of some examples of anything that annoys you out there or something that you like Um and see if you if based on your interpretation it like we are We're allowing that because I think these rules Like these rules need to be to offer enough flexibility for businesses to grow and thrive and We want to make sure that the rules are not um stifling creativity and um As the as a department that deals with enforcement, I certainly want to make sure there's a viable path towards Uh compliance whenever we're going going out after somebody and telling them what they're doing has to stop um so just just for clarity what What would be the intention of the city for bringing science compliance because I Like I would think that our intention for what we're doing is obviously for future signs to all be compliant but I wouldn't necessarily want to like Go out there and some sort of enforcement rampage and so start bringing in start Actively going out and enforcing sign requirements. I would say unless there were complaints We will probably in terms of enforcement protocol and Priorities that's the discussion. I think we'll have to come back to I I certainly get pulled different directions for that um I've heard requests from city council that we need active enforcement that the the you know with with rental registry the The other 50 percent of the time that of that person would be dedicated towards things like this And there but there are many different ways to allocate You know enforcement efforts, right? I think um One thing too that I would say is certain is that Signs that are legal right now would be grandfathered. I mean this is zoning by-law when you change zoning by-law uh Anything that that's an existing non-conformity stays legal If there's something that is currently already not legal and it's not legal under the new rules We could go go after for enforcement if something is currently not legal, but under the new rules becomes legal they're fun so It's sort of related in a way, but um Given that you don't know when you're going to get a code enforcement officer either part-time or full-time And I assume that any amendment to the ldc has to be warned. Is that correct? Yes, okay so One other option is Instead of waiting for your code enforcement officer, which could be fiscal year next year as opposed to this fiscal year um Thinking about how you might be able to have some kind of publicity on this So it's more like talking about aesthetics and how it fits into the code um in some kind of outreach so that people are aware of what's what's um Legal or not legal what's allowed what's not allowed? because certainly so I know you probably don't have a budget for that but You know, I'm just thinking and It's part of Some kind some kind of public outreach and engagement, right? It's not as hard as some other public outreach and engagement because They're limited to commercial properties that you know tend to be the the the issues here And we have done an enforcement blitz before and during the last during the fall we went went out and Inventoid all the temporis the temporary signs that were out permanently And left a flyer with the uh With with the business owner. Yeah, so then put it right right in the trash, but uh, also the But we we know where they are and what kind of businesses they are When it's time to move forward with adoption of these of the land development code amendments Or or early if you want Yeah, there It could be a good time to do outreach, but I think you have to time these things to to Be the best time but not too early as you actually want to attract the attention Yeah, I mean, I would say our Our responsibility and our role is to Create the guidelines And um Obviously come into compliance so that we're not violating the first amendment um But uh, personally I wouldn't prioritize enforcement of these Well, especially since you don't have an enforcement officer And actually that is a topic we will come back to enforcement priorities Of our limited enforcement capabilities What you know how how we should What yeah, what's the what are the priorities? We'll come back to that Oh Okay, well, that's that's it for uh, some stuff right now Thank you for your patience that was long, but it's also necessary to Get through these details a good presentation. Yeah, I appreciate having any examples. No, that was great. Yeah. Yeah Moving on to member updates any member updates um, just real briefly, um strategic planning Next week there'll be a meeting to discuss Uh, the second serve online survey That'll go up in the next couple of weeks I think it's scheduled to be online for two weeks And it's basically more specific on um The six pillars and the sort of sub activities under the pillar But we'll see the survey next week and be able to Get a sense of what they're proposing to do Um, I think I don't remember Chris when I proposed draft will go To the council. I thought it was end of april if I'm not Is that I think I think that's still the latest Yeah, I think so. So, yeah Uh staff updates this is where we decided we would talk about rental register. Yeah, so rental registry was on city council agenda last Meeting so February 28th wednesday um also lots of public attention and uh, you know time spent on that um and ultimately the city council uh decided to Spend I mean there were some some city counselors were thinking we needed to we need to take a bigger step back and start You know To to rethink the the whole program that something like this is important, but maybe it might we should consider Um, all the possibilities including uh registry only no inspections to start um or seeing Looking for any ways to make it cheaper Or looking at writing in a stipulation about Uh revisiting the fees On an annual basis to make sure there's no reserve being built out being being built up. Um I am currently Working through some of that along with the fire chief. Oh, yeah, and also another thing Another thing that came up as a as a big concern was How to make it clear what was being inspected for what the inspection criteria was Um, there are a lot of nested rules You know, the which goes into state building codes fire and fire and building safety codes and There there were concerns that this could lead like a program like this could lead to nitpicking certain things like, you know railing being a little too low out of you know And Not focusing on just the the biggest life safety issues um We're still working on that the fire chief is heavily involved in that part There's no timeline at this point for when this council will discuss this again. Did they so did you guys watch the meeting? Do you see me? So I did I did watch the meeting. I wasn't present but I watched the video afterwards Did they decide whether or not to take this out of the budget or leave it in the budget? They took it out. Okay. So it's not even in for this year. No, but either ways that the Intention was that it wouldn't obligate it wouldn't have obligated them to To have to do this because it's it's a revenue neutral And in theory, I think they could still do it Without adding it into the budget because it's supposed to be fast neutral, right? So um The other thing that came up during the meeting was a suggestion that the council consider meeting with the planning commission or Meeting with the chair and one other person from the planning commission Which I disagree with I think it should be the whole planning commission And I would like to make a strong recommendation that it be the whole planning commission And again, I think it's important that we just don't have a meeting about the retro registry But we talk about What comes out of the strategic plan and what's the comprehensive plan and how to move forward on what we're going to Focus on as a planning commission. So that would be my recommendation I think there were people that didn't want to have a full meeting my my Take from what I heard there were some of the councils who were objecting to a full meeting But I would recommend that we have a full meeting All planning commissioners. I agree I would agree So just so that gets passed on chris I will pass that on again. It's certainly been on the Regina is is aware of the desire to to uh To have a joint meeting at some points. Um, and I think the city council is also You know aware of that that desire and need Figuring out the best time to fit that in Um, you know at the most effective time, I think it's it's probably going to be the hardest part I think it yeah, I think it might even be may after with the Yeah draft strategic plan, is it right? the other thing is um Related to the rental registry um And again, I think what I heard from some of the council is the stuff we talked about ad nauseam last year You know incentives for the landlords programs to fund some of the repairs low-income housing landlords um Whether or not we start with an index as opposed to a full, you know, rental recovery program A registry recovery program so they revisit a lot of stuff we talked about so it's not It would be very beneficial to have this discussion one other thing. I mentioned it to Regina once If you do decide to go just down to an indexing registry as opposed to inspection Um, there are options to get volunteers You know miracle or give you up to two years of a volunteer That's definitely cost neutral So some of these things can be explored Great any other updates updates No, I mean my only sorry just to respond it as they said city council Um, has it been towards building a reserve? My only response to that is I think it should build a reserve so that there could be funds available in the future for Grants to landlords to come into compliance Right that does seem to be a kind of two to conflicting desires. Uh, even among among city council We now I don't so at least they're discussing that okay They they didn't go as far as to to all agree on that that was just one thing that came up But I'm the only thing they agreed on is that they weren't ready to move forward. No, that's all I mean they did say to talk about um, I mean roge was talking about setting aside a portion of the the fee To a landlord fund, but yeah, if you do the uh, if you do the The the numbers You don't raise very much money. I think Considering as part of the housing I where if we're gonna have a housing committee if you have a housing committee Talking about a housing trust fund that has a portion of that set aside Yes, it makes a little bit more a lot more sense Especially if you can fund it with grants and other mechanisms Mm-hmm We'll talk more about that in May Just need a motion I moved and we adjourned We already have we have the door. I'll second all in favor I All right motion passes meeting adjourned It is 849 p.m excellent