Live from New York City, it's The Cube. Here is your host, Jeff Frick. Hi, Jeff Frick here. We're on the ground at The Cube's fifth birthday party at Big Data NYC. We're in Manhattan for Big Data Week New York City. We just came off our first ever capital markets panel, which was really great. We had full day of Cube coverage today, a full day of Cube coverage yesterday, but we want to give you a little feel for what's going on here at The Cube's fifth birthday party. So I'm joined by my next guest, Shabam Maharish. Yes. And you're the head of financial services and insurance for fractal analytics. Great, well welcome. Thank you, thank you so much. So what do you think of the, you're there for our little panel? What did you think of the panel? Yeah, no, I think it was great. It was, you know, we represent more of the practitioner side of the business. I thought it was great to listen to, you know, more of the technical and the software side of the house and what's happening there. So we are more users of these platforms as opposed to systems integrators. And we represent Fortune 500 companies that use those platforms. So which is great, right? That was just basic messages that the winners are going to be the practitioner. So you're actually out in the field. You have kind of a unique model that we talked about off camera. You're really helping companies implement these strategies and technologies. Absolutely. We have over 700 data scientists that help companies implement strategies. So think of us as a business consulting firm that's implementing machine learning and advanced algorithms to help solve business problems. So that's really the problem. So you solve the problem of there's just not enough data scientists out there? Absolutely, and the whole model is it's an on-site offshore model. So we leverage our teams in India, China, globally to actually solve these problems. So it's a 20% of our team is typically in the US, 80% in India. So that's how we solve the people problem. Right, and is it a consultative basis where you go in and help them do that? Or do you actually implement and run it on an ongoing basis for them? Or do you do that and potentially do a leave behind when you're finished? So it's a great question. It's both. So it depends on what the client wants. But mostly we try to implement an ongoing relationship because that's when we can retain the knowledge, what we learned from the previous gig that we did, a project that we did for them. So that's really the model. OK, and another thing I want to follow up with you is there was an interesting comment on the panel, right, about the flyover states. And the joke that in California, New York, Boston, we're always ahead of the curve and what's happening in the flyover state. But Amy from Cloudera said, you know, I'm down in the weeds. I'm working with companies. So you're out with the customers. Talk a little bit about how this has really gone beyond the coasts and how it's kind of moved beyond kind of POCs and the real production instances. No, absolutely. And I would side with Amy. I mean, I think there's a lot of work happening. I mean, if you think about agriculture itself.  So I totally agree with Amy that there's a lot of work going on there. From our perspective, our whole mission is to help companies institutionalize analytics. So, you know, understand the leverage of data, understand that it's a data-driven world tomorrow. And so that's really the model. And so it doesn't matter where you are, because we can bring that sophistication to you. But then how, but then how do they start to adopt that culture if they don't have, either they didn't have it or they just don't have the people? I mean, is there a level of kind of becoming an analytics-driven company, even though you're not a bunch of data scientists, you know, kind of at the levers of the switches of the business? No, that's a great question, because a lot of our clients are in that spot, right? They, they have a choice, right? If you're in the Midwest, where will you get those PhDs that don't want to work for Google? Right. They still want to work for you as a data scientist. And that's a struggle that they have. But there is a, there's a journey that they have to follow, right? So meaning you could still evangelize analytics by not going all the way to the extreme end of sophistication and implementing machine learning. You could do simple things like visualization, right? If I can visualize your data for you, if I can show you how as an insurer, you know, your claims are trending across the U.S. You can drag and drop, click in, zoom in into a map. Very intuitive visualizations. I can get you to appreciate data and I can slowly evangelize that within your firm and then you'll understand why advanced analytics is required to get to the next level, right? So there's a, there's a maturity curve there. So I know people a lot of times are sensitive talking about customers, but I'm just, I'm curious if there's any examples that you can, that you can share with us either generically or a real customer of kind of an eye-popping experience that one of the customers had when either it was something completely different than they, than they thought or, you know, it really drove home the power of thinking in an analytical way. No, absolutely. I mean, we have a lot of text mining algorithms that we have built over the years. And so an insurer wanted to figure out at the time that there's a claim, right? There's a first notice of loss.  So there's a lot of text in there. So can you mine this text that they're filing in their systems to come up with, hey, will this go to litigation? Will I get a third party claim on this? And we have built algorithms that can mine that text to kind of come up with those insights. So that was a really interesting, you know, output of what we did. And what did they discover? I mean, were they able to get ahead of the curve? Were they able to channel it in a different workflow based on those risks? So we were able to classify over 80% of claims and classify them correctly that we were able to predict that these would go for litigation. Using unstructured data that had always been in the system, but somebody had to read it. Nobody actually kind of applied any machine learning to it. And we did, yes, absolutely. All right, awesome. All right, well, Shabam, thanks for stopping by. I know you want to get back to the party. We're, again, we're on the ground here at Big Data NYC for the fifth birthday party or the cube coming off our first capital market event. I'm Jeff Rick, you're watching theCUBE. Thank you.


Alright Scott, so we're just going to go through and show you kind of what we do on pre-trips. Obviously what I'm showing you is real basic, pre-trips a lot more in depth than what I'm actually going to show you, but I'm going to show you some of the basics of it. One thing I always look at is, is that truck safe enough to put my family in front of? That's how I explain it in the classes that I teach. So let me say, check the air pressure, do you actually use a gauge? I don't think a tire thumper, it doesn't tell you how much air pressure is in it. It'll tell you if there's air in it, but it doesn't tell you how much. We want 100 pounds in our tires. I use an air gauge on every tire. I check the depth of my tires, make sure that we're within DOT compliance on that. I check my brakes, make sure it's within DOT compliance. So I'm checking, it takes me about 40-45 minutes to do a pre-trip every morning. If it's below 100, how long does it take to air up, or how do you actually? Well, we have air hoses on the trucks. I hook into my glad hands, and it depends on how low it is. It can take up to about 15 minutes if it's real low. If it's just a little low, a few minutes, a few to five minutes. But I won't roll without my tires at 100. But yeah, I do really thorough. I make sure that the truck is 100%. I never want to hurt anybody on the road. So that's a big thing for me. So when you looked at the hood, is there a release? On the Volvo's, the release is inside. It's under the dash there. On the other trucks, they have outside hood latches. So some of the things I'm looking for under this hood, air compressor, making sure it's not leaking. I'm not hearing anything. I'm not seeing any loose bolts or anything. I'm checking my power steering fluid, making sure that it's up to the right level. There's no leaks around there. Checking my engine oil. I always check to make sure there's no metal shavings, any water in there. Is that just like a car? You just pull that domestic out? Yeah, it twists and pulls out. And you can check that. Do you kind of just carry a rag with you? I do. I carry paper towels. I don't like greasy rags under my hood. So I use paper towels and discard them. Checking my belts with my alternator. Checking my steering linkage. Make sure that it's not loose. It's not bent. Checking my frame. Make sure sometimes you get on some rough roads and sometimes it'll tweak your frame. Hose clamp. Checking everything makes sure there's no leaks, nothing loose. My wires aren't disconnected or at least we're not supposed to be. No frays. Make sure my gearbox is good. I'm checking my brakes, my shocks, leaf springs. Sometimes again you get on rough roads and it'll break your leaf springs and they'll scissor on you. Pretty much like I said, I go through everything. I check every hose. I usually run my fingers over it. That'll tell you for sure if it's leaking. And then all your air hoses. I'm constantly listening to my truck. Your truck's going to tell you what it's doing. Do you have it running when you're doing your pre-trip then? No, I don't have it running but I make sure my air pressure is built up. How similar are the different models? If you learn the Volvo but then you borrow a truck or switch trucks you have to completely learn it all over again. The Cummins are, the basic concept is the same but the components are in different locations. When you get a new truck, like the DD-15s compared to the Cummins, the components are considerably different in the locations. You've got to learn your truck. Does it take a while to get your routine down of like, okay, I start here and kind of work my way through? Yeah, so I have the same way I've been doing it for years. I start at the front, I work my way all the way around. The best thing is consistency. Do it the same way every day all the time. That way you tend not to forget as much. Is there a cheat sheet or something like if you were just learning to help you make sure you don't forget something? There's a cheat sheet out there. Our school's got a great cheat sheet for the Volvos. We've set it up so everything flows very nicely. It's very hard to forget things when you've got that cheat sheet. And it's very hard to miss how the components are laid out. We've set it up very simple. I can see it tempting not to do this when it's snowing or raining, muddy. I've done this in 15, 20 below zero and it's miserable but it's got to be done. You don't skip out on this. I picked a good day at least to see it. You did have a question on the fifth wheel lock so I can hear it out here. But are you able to hear that in the truck? Yeah, I can hear it. Something I always do also is always get underneath and check to make sure I can visually see that. So I have very specific ways I hook up trailers. Once I hook up, I start from the front and work my way back. My landing gear is my safety net. So that's the first thing that goes down when I drop. That's the last thing that goes up when I pick up the trailer. Once I hook my trailer up, I'm going to make sure the trailer is 100%. You're doing another pre-trip. I'm going to check my brakes, my suspension, tires, rims. Same thing I'm doing on the truck. I'm going to do on the trailer. I'm going to have to do a light check to make sure all my lights are working properly. So Brian, how long have you been with Knight? So I started with Knight in 2014, I believe it was, or no, 2015. Almost five years I've been with Knight. Okay. I started off here as a driver. Drill wasn't for a little over a year. And I had the opportunity to come into the office and run our DQP program for new hires coming in. Then I went and I was a driver manager for about six months. Then I became a DDM, or Phoenix Dry. And I was a DDM there for a few months. And I went to Ports for almost about a year and a half. And I was a DDM there. And now I teach, I help teach the CDL program. I do all the classroom instruction. And I work out on the range quite a bit with this new students coming in. We go through everything. How to scale a load, how to drop and hook, how to do pre-trips. I teach them how to save money out there. We're all here to make money. Yeah. And a lot of these guys come in not understanding this business. So I try to teach them as much about the business side and the financial side as I can. So they understand how to make money in this business.  That's probably one of my biggest things that I teach is how to manage their time out here so they're not wasting time. I always tell them the way to make money here is managing your time. And with proper time management, the miles will come. So we get paid by the mile but we make money through the time management. Once they pass our program, then they go into, they do a four-week training program on the road and trainer. Once they're done with that, then they get seated in their own truck and they start their squire program. What's your favorite part of being an instructor? When they come up to me and shake my hand when they're done. Oh, yeah. And thank me for everything we taught them. Yeah, I've been in the yard where I see they come in and they honk the horn to show that they passed. Yeah.  We haven't hit the air horn so everybody knows that they passed their test. And that's where they're really excited about when you drove. Did you drive for ports too? I did not. I've been into the ports but I never drove actually for the port division. It's all in what you're comfortable with hauling. And I just got comfortable with driving and it's been good to me. I love it here. And I love driving. I just need to be home more often. So when I had the opportunity to come into the office, I jumped on it. So in recruiting, we see a lot of applications, different drivers. And I would probably say a majority of drivers have several jobs in a year. What are your thoughts? Why do you think that is? Well, this business is very dynamic and volatile right now. It always has been. And I think a lot of these guys think that jumping company to company, they're going to make more money. And I actually think they're losing money when they start jumping. Because every company has an orientation of some sort. So they got to sit through that. And you're always starting from the bottom. So what I try to tell guys is stick with the company. There's no company out there that's perfect, right? So let's stick with the company and try to make it work. Knight's one of the few companies that I've had the pleasure to work for where we try to develop our drivers. We want our drivers to do their very best. And I'm sure there's other companies like that out there. So I always try to encourage them not to bounce companies. You never get ahead. And when they start bouncing to a lot of companies, a lot of these companies are looking at that, going, you know, why are these guys jumping so much? And I think it looks bad on their driving record over time. Yeah. Well, no, that's one thing we look at is how many jobs someone's had in the last year. But I definitely kind of see that trend a lot. And I was curious what causes that? I think the people are, when they get angry, they're apt to just quit and there's plenty of driving jobs out there. So they just go company to company hoping to find that right job. And the problem is, is I don't think that right job usually is out there for somebody who does that. I think they need to, if they get angry, talk it over with the representatives, whether it's a driver manager or a terminal manager, whoever it is, and try to come up with a resolution. There was times on the road I was angry. But I was always able to work it out with my driver manager or terminal manager and always worked out for the best for me. And I'd always took care of those. When you were a driver development, that's kind of a common term. When you were a DDM, what was kind of the aspects of your job then? I said most drivers want to be better drivers. No driver ever wants to be involved in an accident. No driver wants to cause any harm to anybody. So I had very good success with most of my drivers. And they're still drivers from when I was a driver development manager. They still come up to me and thank me for helping them out or doing whatever we did to help them. And that was a big, big part of what we did. And then the other part is just helping them become successful drivers. Teaching them how to manage their time better. Teaching them how to get bonuses. All these things are involved in that. So I'm sure you saw it when you taught orientation and probably in your current position. But what do people think of when they think of a driver recruiter? I've heard it a lot with the night recruiters that they're honest with the drivers. They felt like they were taken care of. The communication was exceptional. And that's probably what I heard I've been hearing the most. Even with the new students. They're generally a lot happier about careers that we have compared to others. A lot of the guys, we ask them in class why you choose night. And a lot of the guys say, because of the recruiter, the way we were treated, they got back to us quickly. There's a lot of reasons, but it comes down to a lot of it is the recruiters. When I was recruited in, I felt like I was treated extremely fair. I had a great recruiter, I thought. I think she still works here even. I know that's something we try to do is keep the recruiter involved all the way from the beginning of hiring through the hiring process and still be in the picture and available afterwards. Because you never know when you're going to have questions. We want the recruiter available and a lot of times that's who you have the relationship with. And we want to continue that relationship for sure. One of the things I do with every driver that comes in tonight is I offer my phone number to them. And I tell them, anytime you need anything, call me. It doesn't matter what time of the day it is. If they have questions, if they need help, I'm always available to them. And those two o'clock in the morning phone call sometimes are the greatest. But if I can help a driver out, I know what it was like when I first started. And I didn't have the support from really anybody. I learned a lot of this on my own. And so I offer my help anytime. Any driver wants to call me, I'll give everybody my phone number when they come into class. And I don't care if it's six months from now, a year from now, if they have a question, they can call me. So Scott, what's your job exactly? What's it entail? Yeah, so as the vice president of recruiting, and that actually includes more than just our recruiting department. That's probably where I spend majority of my time is with developing our recruiters and overseeing the hiring process. But it also includes our CDL school and our training program, which we call Squire. So really, it's overseeing the onboarding process of any of our drivers. Someone coming in, getting their CDL, somebody who has their CDL, but maybe no experience, or also the hiring of experienced drivers. I really enjoy it because no day is the same. The needs are always changing and every person that we're working with to get hired on has kind of a different backstory or different scenario to help them get started with the company. So the days go by fast and keeps it interesting for sure. So no, Brian, you're helping develop our curriculum. We switched to school from two weeks to three weeks. Getting ready for these changes coming in February. How do you think that's going to affect just the CDL school in general? Well, it's a new curriculum that we're trying to put together. The new drivers getting out on the road are going to have a lot better concept and a lot more knowledge of what they should expect out there. I've heard of drivers getting their CDL after like 10 hours of a school or 40 hours. And we're seeing some of this today. How much do you have to learn? It's a passive pre-trip. I can't imagine that. There's a lot to learn in this industry. And even with our fast-paced program, our students, they're on the road half the day and they're doing skills half the day every day. And I don't understand how 10 hours you can learn this stuff. Right. So I think this new curriculum that we're coming up with is going to be really efficient. I think the new students coming in are really going to enjoy it. And I think they're going to be able to learn a lot from it. I think when they get out there, they're going to have a better concept of the general responsibilities as a driver more so than what it used to be or what other schools may teach. We want our drivers to be the best. And so we're constantly adjusting our program to make it better. And we have some great instructors. We have over 100 years' experience with the instructors we have. So when we learn something new or we find something new, we look at it and see if it makes sense to implement it. So it's, like I said, very dynamic. It's constantly changing, constantly improving. If somebody comes in that shows us something that we didn't think about or definitely does make sense to put into our program, we definitely will do it. So, Brian, when you were in the office, you would go out of your way to make sure you had really good relationships with all the drivers you worked with? Absolutely. How was it when you were hired on with Knight to become a driver? How did you build that relationship with your terminal manager and driver manager or other operations team? I think a lot of it was just talking to them as often as I needed. So I had some really great driver managers and it was get personable with them. Don't be afraid to open up to them a little bit. Ask them how their day is going. Mutual respect is everything. If they respect you, you respect them, you're going to have a great relationship with them. And in the end, even on your bad days, there's somebody you can call. When I was a driver manager, I made sure I called my drivers every morning and talked to them. Just see how they were doing. I don't want my drivers driving sick or tired and I would ask them, how are you feeling today? How are you doing today? And it made a big difference in the fact that my drivers do what I care. And they weren't afraid to talk to me about it.


Hello. Welcome to the Judge Ben Show. My name is Ben Joseph. I'm a retired Vermont Superior Court Judge. This is a program in which I interview people about issues that concern the legal system in Vermont. Today is something I've looked forward to, frankly, I'm going to interview Larry Christ. Larry is the executive director of the Vermont Parent Representation Center. Did I get that right Larry? That's correct, Judge. Good. Thank you. And talking to Larry and thinking about the subject today, which is the child protective system in Vermont. It just seems to be so much going on that I'm going to try something I've never done before. We're going to have two interviews with Larry. In 30 minutes, we'll give in over to how the system is working and why I and many other people think it's broken. And then the second 30 minutes, we're going to talk about solutions to its problems. Larry's draft statutes, they set up a new system, and he'll explain how it might work. So now we're into interview number one. Larry, how long have you been working with parent representation in Vermont? Well, I've been doing this for just, it'll be four years in April. Wow. It seems like the time has flown by. I came here after being the executive director of the Vermont Red Cross five years and then prior to that I was a state official for 25 years here in Vermont. Wow. That's impressive. Yeah, but I think I was going to retire, but I kept being drawn back into activities that I hadn't counted on. Well, let's just kind of dive into this thing. What is a chin's proceeding in Vermont? Can you explain that? Yes, judge. The chin's proceeding really is it's, it is the term that is used for a child in need of services. And that's the official term that is really used in title 33 chapter 49 of Vermont statutes annotated. That's the governing law for child protection in the state. There are a lot of laws around it. There are a lot of policies and procedures, but title 33 chapter 49 is the key area. And the chin's proceeding is, is really a situation in which a determination is made by the state child protection agency, which in Vermont, as we all know, is the Department for Children Balance. That's DCF. It's DCF for short. And DCF will receive a complaint or report of suspected child abuse or neglect. They then review those. Make an initial determination as to whether it should be accepted or not. If it's accepted, they then do an investigation. The investigation may lead them to believe that there is a child who is in need of services, a child who's in danger of abuse, neglect, or who is simply unmanageable. And those are known as Chin's A, B or C in that order. What happens at that process at that point, though, is that DCF writes an affidavit of report to the court, which goes to the state's attorney in that particular county. State's attorney reviews it and decides whether this appears to be something that that the court really should be involved with the state's attorney will then submit that affidavit attached to a Chin's petition. And really oftentimes it can be a petition for an emergency care order, which means they really feel the child is in danger. Or it can be a non-emergency care order where we think there's a problem, but it doesn't have to be dealt with immediately. Then I'll run through very quickly how the Chin's process works. The first hearing would be an emergency care order. The second would be a temporary care hearing, which by law is supposed to be given within 72 hours of the original emergency care order. I'll get to the problems in the system after I go through the process. So that's 72 hours after a judge has been given this petition in which the person has the parents or whoever has the right to come in and say, you know, this information is incorrect. Or the state comes in and says the information is very correct.  Then the next hearing is called a merit hearing. And that's really a hearing in which the state has to prove that there was a reason for interceding. How much time passes between the initial proceeding and the merit hearing? Well, it is supposed to be 15 days. The merit hearing is supposed to commence within 15 days of the temporary care hearing and be completed within 60 days. However, as we will get into it, those time frames are rarely met. And that begins to be part of the problem. Once the merit hearing, which is really a trial in essence, before a judge, during that period, which can go for an extended period of time, the family is asked to be certain things by BCF. And a report is provided to the court. When they get to the merit hearing, merit hearing can go on for a while. Each side is supposed to present evidence relative to what they think occurred. And then the judge makes a decision. Was their merit in the state interceding and removing or taking some action with regard to this family and this child? Well, just during that time, is the child initially taken into custody pending that hearing? The child can be taken into custody at the emergency care order on the very first day. And their inline begins to lie the problems with our system because that emergency care hearing, it is presented to the judge through an affidavit. But there's very little quality control over that affidavit because DCF, the DCF investigator writes it. The superintendent, I mean, the supervisor approves it, but no one after that. Then it goes to the state's attorney, who's given a document saying these parents did X, Y, and Z. But the state's attorney has no way of verifying that that information is correct. They really have to take it on face value that the affidavit is accurate. And what we have found in many, many cases is the affidavits are not accurate. Simply because DCF is under a great deal of pressure. As we know from the tragic death of two children about five years ago, there is a tremendous amount of pressure on DCF workers, supervisors and managers to make sure that nothing bad happens to a child on their watch. As a result, I fear that our system has become so risk adverse that no one wants to take a chance. So once a report comes in and is accepted, there is tremendous pressure to say there is a problem here. Let's get this case to the state's attorney. Once the state's attorney gets the case, state's attorney has really very little to no opportunity to verify that that affidavit is correct. So it goes to the judge. But before it gets to the judge, can the kid be held in custody? No, at that point not. Only a judge can take a child into custody. But all of this can happen as an example on a Friday afternoon. So everything you described can happen in one day? All this can happen in one day. And usually does happen in one or two days. So an affidavit would be submitted on a Friday. And on Friday, the state's attorney needs to get it in front of the judge. And on Friday, the judge either rules on it or look at it and say, okay, this is important, but I think it can wait until Monday. The problem there in though, is that the only information the court has is that affidavit. There is no other information available to the judge. So if the affidavit isn't accurate, there is nothing for the judge to see that says, wait a minute, it says that this happened. But here's this other evidence that says this did not happen. And the reason for that is that this process moves so quickly, because it is, it's been put forth that this child is in real danger. So no one wants to take responsibility for saying, no, no, no, I wanted to see more information. And then God forbid something bad happened to the child during an infant period when you're waiting for more information. So the parents and the child have legal representation of their lawyers? The parents will be assigned an attorney, but if it's an emergency care order, that attorney either is a stand-in attorney, someone who's appointed by the state if the parents can't afford an attorney, which most parents cannot afford an attorney. Just to give you a sense, Judge, and I know you know this from sitting on the bench, a private attorney for one of these cases can charge between $10,000 and $30,000. That is, you know, that's an amount of money that not a lot of Vermont families have available to spend on an attorney in this situation. So what happens is there are stand-in attorneys who either will be available on the phone or outside of COVID time would appear, but they know nothing. They haven't seen the affidavit. They've never met the parents. They've had no opportunity to find out is there another side to this story. So it almost becomes an automatic process in many ways. And then the temporary care hearing, which is supposed to be held within 72 hours on the surface, that makes sense, except in many cases these attorneys have still never had an opportunity to meet with the parents to talk with them to look at other information. So the temporary care hearing in many ways does not achieve what it's supposed to achieve. It's really supposed to determine were we right in taking the emergency action. The other problem is that the law says that the temporary care hearings to begin within 72 hours of the emergency order. However, the courts have been so backed up in these cases. That they can't really initiate these and complete them within the timeframe that's allowed to do it. So what happens in many cases is the court will begin a temporary care hearing and then immediately recess and reschedule it for a month later, two months later, and some cases three months later. I actually had a case where it was rescheduled six months later. So technically, the court has met the legal requirement, but not, but not the spirit of the law because that child that the child was taken into custody, that child may be removed from their home to be with a relative or could be with a total stranger and foster care throughout this period before anyone has actually determined should this child had really been removed based on evidence, as opposed to based on an affidavit that no one has had a chance to query. And then again as you point out, if it's pushed out to six months, there's six months in which a child can be in foster care before anyone has actually ever looked at whether the child should really have been removed or not. And that's just the first of many delays, because you can then go to the process from a temporary care hearing that might, as you said, might go three months, or even six months, you then go to a merits here. And the merits hearing is supposed to be done within 15 days of the temporary care here. Well, those dates are typically not met. So that gets pushed out further. You can wind up going six months to almost a year sometime before you've had a merits hearing before it's really been determined that this child should have been removed, that the affidavit was accurate. And therein lies the heart of the problem. The next phase of this problem is that throughout this process. And I hate to use the term indigent parents, but that's the term that's used. The reality is there are an awful lot of families that can't afford 10 to $30,000, which means most Vermont families would be considered indigent in this case. They're assigned an attorney who is is typically a contract attorney, private attorney contracts with the defender general's office. The American Bar Association says that an attorney handling these kinds of cases should work with 60 cases. I have not met an attorney who handles less than who handles 60 cases. I've worked with attorneys who handle 100 200. In some cases, more than 200 of these cases at a time in the same year at the same time at the same time. These these attorneys have that it is physically impossible for them to devote the time that needs to be spent to meet with parents to understand the case to look at to look at evidence to gather evidence to identify witnesses to do all of the legal work that is required. There are an attorney to be able to provide effective lawyering, and that really is the key is an attorney effective at presenting their case. And in these cases, there are some attorneys who work themselves to a nub, trying to to do the right thing, it is just physically impossible. For a while, most attorneys except the fact that you can't do effective lawyering, you can only do what you can do. And in most cases, that means that the attorneys work with their clients and say look. If we fight this, it's going to take us a long time in this case. If you just admit to whatever it is DCF says you did agree to do it DCF says you should do. If you don't get your, your children back as fast or quicker than if we if we fight this case. Most parents sometimes that's rather big I mean, can sometimes it can take months before they get the kids back. It can take years before they get the kids back. I mean, I've worked in cases where an infant was removed, and nine months later when they finally finish the merits hearing the judge announces from then. Well now that we finished the merits hearing I can rule. I never saw a reason in the first place this child should have been taken. The child goes back to their parents now that's in that was a newborn taking from a mother in the hospital who's now going back as a nine month old child. And I hate to describe our system, but it is a broken system and it's not anyone's fault. But it is everyone's fault, because everyone who works closely in this system knows that it is broken. They know that it operates the way that I'm describing. Let me be clear, I'm not saying that there are not abused or neglected children in the state, they're clearly are, and they need our protection, and they need the protection of the juvenile court in the state. But families, and many children are not getting the protection. What they are getting is put into a system that really operates like a machine. There's a whole lot of concern about what are we really doing to these children and to these families. And I'll sum this up, and this is going to sound very strange, but there was an old saying in the Soviet Union. The state pretends to pay the workers and the workers pretend to do the work. To a great degree, that is the system that we have set up in Vermont and had for many years here, because it is physically impossible for the majority of attorneys who handle these cases on a regular basis to actually provide effective legal counsel. They just can't do it. They don't have the time. They don't have the resources. And frankly, they would go broke if they did. I can work with a family and go back and look at all of the evidence which I do on a regular basis and help them advocate for themselves, but I can spend 100 hours on a case. An attorney can't spend 100 hours in the case. They just can. So we have to find a better way to do what we do. Now that's one half of the system. The other half of the system that we haven't talked about yet is the substantiation process. Right, have you handled substantiation case appeals. Yes, I have, I have at this point handled 17 appeals for substantiations assisting parents and presenting their cases. I don't do this as an attorney because I'm not practiced. I'm not licensed to practice law in Vermont. I do this as an advocate and a support person for them. I guide them through the process, but it is really their process. So, to look at this part of the system is remember Vermont substantiates between 800 and 1000 people a year for child abuse and neglect. That substantiation is often based on the information that was in an affidavit to begin with, because the affidavit comes out of an investigative report. If those affidavits of the court are incorrect, the substantiation reports are incorrect. However, with regard to the affidavits, people can lose their children with regard to the substantiations, people can lose their livelihood.  And in some cases you will lose your licensure. So, it is a very significant issue. It just doesn't take your children away from it. The first, the CHINSS process can result in losing your children. The substantiation process, which can be simultaneous, can result in you losing your livelihood. Now, as I said, I wanted to see if the substantiation process was as broken as the CHINSS process is. And what I found is, and remember, these were not cases that I selected. These were the first 17 clients who came to, to VPRC and asked for help with Vermont Parent Representation Center. Yes. So we took the first 17 people that came to us. We have gotten decisions in 16 of those appeals. We have won all 16. And in every case, what we have found is that the state could not prove that these people actually abused or neglected their children. And in some cases. That's just shocking. It is. I mean, it is, but it is indicative of how broken the system is that we have. In those cases, have the children been taken away from the parents and put in a foster home or something? At least two thirds of those cases, at least two thirds of those cases, if not, yeah, if not more, the children will remove for some period of time. And two, and at least three cases that I can think of, the children will remove for more than a year. I think when we were able to finally get into a hearing process and show that there was no evidence that there had ever been abuse or neglect. That either workers DCF investigators had misinterpreted the law, or they hadn't gathered all of the information. Are they misinterpreted the information that they got. There are some of these cases like custody fights where parents are separated and one accuses the other of abuse. Several of the cases did involve custody fights. Yes, unfortunately. And you know that happens it's it's human nature. People use whatever tools they can find when they're when they're angry and upset. But sometimes this case is just based on a lot. And in some cases, I mean, I've worked with some cases these did not turn out to be substantiations because we assisted the families at the moment that each report was made. I worked with one family that has had DCF visit them six times in 18 months based on reports made by a strange relatives, the same relatives, time after time making exactly the same report. And, and then DCF for lack of a different procedure has to go out and do an assessment or investigation each time. We were able to show in each case that the, the allegation, there was no basis for the allegation, you know, there'd be a basis of saying they have no food, there's no running water, the children live in filth and don't have beds. I would go out to the house, unannounced, meet with the family, and there's food, there's running water, the children have really nice rooms and toys, and the kids were taking for a tour of their room. So then it's a question of getting in touch with the DCF workers to say, I look, I will meet you at the parents house and let's go through it. And, and interestingly enough, with COVID, we've been able to use remote visits, which have worked really well, especially when it's the children who walk around the house with the cell phone showing the DCF worker their bedroom and their toys. But that's, you know, that's something of an aside. The substantiation process is one that really does need to be reformed. And DCF at this point, I believe, is leaning very much in that direction of saying that it does need to be taken a look at. But remember, it has gone on for years, it has gone on for years and it's gone on with an average of 800 to 1000 people each year substantially. One of the things to keep in mind is that unlike the chins proceedings in chins, a parent who can't afford an attorney is assigned an attorney. The attorney may not do much for them, but at least they have a lawyer and a substantiation process, they are not assigned an attorney. They have to contend with the power of the state on their own. Well, that's, that's just, and then when it goes to the secondary appeal to the Human Services Board, it's a quasi judicial proceeding. The Vermont rules of evidence are in play the average, the average parent in this state has no idea. And the Human Services Board bends over to, to help those folks, but the reality is they're competing with an assistant attorney general who handles these cases day in and day out. It is incredibly not just unfair playing field. There is such an absence of due process that I believe there are strong constitutional issues at question. The reality is no one, no matter how good they might think they are wins 16 out of 17 cases. And the reason it's 16 out of 17 is I am waiting any day to get the 17 decision. But those, those two systems really do define the, the child protection system that is really broken. Now, there's another piece of the system, which we're not going to go into here, which is the service provision and service provision has its challenges. But in Vermont, there are a lot of good service agencies, there are very good DCF workers who do their best to connect people with services. And often those services are really helpful. The difficulty there though, is that in many cases, because we are so risk adverse DCF will coerce parents into extended services and violation of law. It just happens, it happens every day. The statute is very clear that when an assessment is done, if DCF does not find any abuse or neglect. But they see that services might be utilized there to offer those services to the parents, and if the parents say thank you very much, but no thank you DCF by law is supposed to close the case. What has happened over the last few years is that DCF has introduced a risk assessment tool now, which they then use and say, I'm sorry. The statute says you don't have to accept this, you know these services, but you scored very high on our risk assessment, and if you decide not to accept our services. We're going to have to go to the state's attorney and present your case and see if they want to take you to court. Most parents don't want to go there. They will say, fine, we'll accept services. The end result is that on any given day in Vermont, we can have hundreds of parents receiving services that they never needed in the first place were never proven that they needed in the first place and didn't want. But they are utilizing valuable resources that could be going to children and families that really need them. That is sort of the overview and you know in the end, when bad things happen in this system, people can lose their children permanently through termination of parental rights. At the very least, they can lose custody of their children for a period of months or years before they get them back. And on the other end of that with the substantiations. There was one client I worked with who lost their license to practice. They lost their job. They lost their home. They lost their children. They wound up becoming a welfare family living in a hotel paid for by DCF only for us to discover that none of the allegations were true. DCF wound up dropping the charges, but only after two and a half years, and that kind of. And again, it's not pointing fingers at anyone. That's just the system we've created. It is broken. It doesn't work. And if you have a phone line opened up, Judge Ben, and ask parents who have gone through these experiences negatively to call you. The phone system would crash. That'll be another show. I want to wrap this up for now. And then we'll go into the second interview in which you can talk about how this thing can be reformed and made better. Thank you. Thank you very much Larry. And thank you for looking in. This will be released through community television. And after some time then the second interview in which we talk about the solutions to the problems will be broadcast as well. Thank you for your attention. And I hope that you get to see the second interview, not just this version. Thank you.