Friday afternoon folks. We're back here in the Think Tech studios overlooking Waimanalo, Oahu Actually, we're in Honolulu and there's a Facade going on behind us here. Ted Raul sit here our show where the drone leads the Think Tech Hawaii With guests first-timer Nevada John if you get I mean Nevada if you got some other names on that too or is it just Nevada? Just Nevada how about Utah or Southern California? Is that going there too? I didn't have one Admiral who used to call me every state but Nevada But Nevada, okay, but we'll call you Nevada Okay, so we have Nevada here, and you're actually from Alaska. Yes, Nevada from Alaska. Okay, exactly And Nevada is the director of the pan-Pacific unmanned air systems test range Complex right which is a significant thing for us here in Hawaii that we spent the last week working on and Eric Yamashita joining us right down the street from MD PTC once again the world's most unpronounceable acronym right next to PPU TRC and In fact, it's it's really good It's justice that you guys get together because you have these acronyms that nobody understands or can pronounce anyway Eric is Then on the show several times and is always leading the way in terms of new technology in the world of disaster Operations in the Pacific and the two go together very well UAS and Disaster operations and of course that was part of the subject of our discussions this year this week Actually Nevada we've had I think about six people from the state of Alaska right here at this table We've had a row Bailey. We've had Marty Rogers Peter Wembley and some others so if you think of six people from Alaska being on one TV show That's a significant part of the population of the state right all the And just so you know right down the street we have right next to in fact in the same building as NDPTC we have the Ocean that technology company and they have produced parts where the UAS is that you guys are running up in the Arctic parts that are coated with a Hydrophobic coating so that ideally they won't collect any ice or any water during Operations in wintertime up there. So we'll stop down see them a little bit later on the way over to To the water side anyway We had this week that we're all part of and as well as a number of other people the aerospace summit Which we've talked about on this show many times, which is a periodic gathering in Hawaii of the Program elements program people and ideas that are dealing with aerospace in Hawaii and this subject here UAS is right in the middle of that aerospace domain and it's also not in that aerospace domain It's in the domain of search and rescue. It's in environmental species protection. It's in beach erosion. It's in Department of Interior Bridge and railway studies up in up in Alaska and all and we've got a really figure out for what you hear how to take this Aerospace originated function and expand it into these areas that are not traditional aerospace filmmaking for example and PPU TRC or the pan-Pacific unmanned air systems test range complex Can be central to that. Yes, and so John I mean Nevada, sorry. I keep mispronouncing your name I shouldn't call you John Tell us a little bit about our PPU TRC came from How it's seen by the FAA as an element of the future and where you think it's going sure PPU TRC started several years ago under the Alaska Center for unmanned aircraft systems integration another one of those long man wait Alaska Alaska unmanned aircraft integration systems a Quasi, so now I have now you got me confused on it But anyway, Alaska Center for unmanned aircraft systems integration. Okay, all right, and we were part of the Test sites that were stood up by the FAA several years ago, and the pan-Pacific fell under the a quasi form for that Where a quasi was handling Alaska and the pan-Pacific as part of the stand-up with the FAA encompassed not only Alaska but also the ranges in Oregon as well as Hawaii and Later on and well currently now we also have the country of Iceland so Iceland's the 51st state in this context just about Okay, don't tell the Icelanders But they have to get Obamacare if we So we were stood up and Working through that we were given to go from the FAA to go through and see how we as the test sites could promote UAS's and do it in a way of Being through policies and procedures and being a very professional driven Organization so that we could promote that and help the FAA Help them with what the requirements would be down the road and what we can do and how they could develop and what the rule making would be It becomes a workshop for the FAA in effect in a sense it does you know We're literally on that pointy spears as one of the FAA for R&D It said that we as the test sites are out there Trying to learn how to do such things as beyond visual line of sight or do disaster First first responder disaster and in this test domain failure is an option I presume failure is a good thing to have because you know where the boundaries are Well, yeah a limited extent as an old test test and evaluation guy I don't like to put things in the ground, you know So that that's where the all the processes and procedures in the rigor of following Test and evaluation comes into play that we try to Encourage that and promote people how to do the UAS testing on our ranges in a way that They become professionals and promotes them and their organizations to thereby Be certified to fly and into the commercial aspect So and ranges in the context of what you mean areas of land or water or both Where our testing could be done without interfering with other operations without being over people and without Becoming a problem in some other operation is already going on You wouldn't want to be doing operations near an airport for example, right exactly over a crowd or people or over a school or something like That so we're talking about remote areas Was challenging terrain We have some serious challenging terrain here in the steep Kuala mountains and and the strong winds Turbulence the leeward side. We have the downdraft So there's a lot of performance challenges that are presented to unmandered systems here And that's something that I've learned over the past week of the summit Which was very interesting to me coming in and hearing about Hawaii and What it all entails especially the downdrafts And uh, you know the volcanoes we have volcanoes up in Alaska as well, but there's some differences between them as well So it was very Very educational for me So our challenge here in Hawaii is to figure out where those ranges or where those areas that could be considered ranges temporarily are And get them surveyed and get them part of the system and then generate Missions that can be tested in those ranges And then generate sponsorships like three things in a row here Sponsorships to get commercial companies to come in or agencies as the case may be and do testing Yes, the information back to the FAA after we're done Give them the good and the bad and tell them where things work and didn't work Right, and that's what the FAA is looking for is that research aspect of what they want to see back Is what did you do? What portion of their requirements or our requirements from the test sites where are we trying to Enhance and then What's the feedback in the data that we can give to the FAA in far as lessons learned and processing Into the future can't answer a better wide open Canvas to paint the picture on that's pretty cool. Yes, exactly and Eric over at NDPTC this what Nevada's I'm gonna call you John, but I didn't I caught myself what Nevada's talking about is a is a Very robust and Challenging test range system that we could take ideas coming out of NDPTC or needs expressed by NDPTC partners or the Primo partners and Package up tests that can be done in those ranges against the objectives that you would have from a Disaster operations perspective. So right now we're looking at Damage assessment the search and rescue damage assessment search and rescue Yeah, and then other uses of sensors and technologies UAV technologies for You know right now there's a hurricane Matthew that's going around in Florida and East coast and then people are saying oh You want to find out what the damage is out there, right? And so Since we haven't really tested our UAVs out in the actual Environment it would be nice to test these things out in test sites and other places. So you could help Uh kind of come from a requirements perspective. What the requirements are for most big damage assessment damage assessment in the response to a hurricane damage assessment could be Could be the infrastructure damage and housing and structures and things it could be Waterways could be beaches could be docks could be pretty much anything if you got a way to Prioritize that or help us figure out what those targets of damage assessment might be right now We're working with some structural engineers and other partners to figure out all these things to how to integrate Some of this into our training courses because we're about training developing training courses for first responders So it's best to collect a lot of this information and come up with best practices and what types of UAVs They should be purchasing and you don't need to be used in this type of That's a really important point. What types of UAVs should be purchased what we see at least my experience Nevada is that we have a world that's It's driven by the manufacturers. They're saying use this thing. I brought you it's going to take care of you but What we heard from our local power companies here. There's a one year Start us in your eyes phase you bought the UAV now you have started us in your eyes figuring out for a year I'm going to use this thing that takes a year to figure out. No, I can't use it. It's not in my mission It's not on my training. I don't have the liability protection and it doesn't do the job So what did I do wrong while I bought what the guy sold me? And maybe a better way to do it is to figure out what my requirements are as a power company or disaster operations guy And then get ppu trc to go start pushing on the testing And and find out what what's going to work in those against those requirements So eric, how do we pull those requirements out of besides the term damage assessment? How do we get down to the specifics? We're talking about Three rgb imagery of buildings and then three-dimensional rendering of The straightness versus the non straightness of damage members or something are we talking structural? We're talking electrical power. We're talking I mean landforms and we're talking about all All things don't want to put any pressure on you. It's just a matter of we you know right now We we have a damage assessment course, but it was primarily land-based everybody caring on Camera and so now we're looking at converting it to integrate uavs and see how we can best Capture the same type of information from the uavs Like I said, we're working with several subject matter experts in this area that they do Land-based assessments and see if they can we can Compare that with imagery and other things we capture with the uavs You know one of the things we discussed at the at the summit was Typical the summit's generous produce five-year plans and things like that that end up going on a shelf One of the objects object as we took away this has something we can do the next day And I think this is exactly what we could do the next day you sit down with Eric and a few others that that right down the street here and begin Doing a mind meld. What is what's going to be what would work? Well, and you guys would have you got a lot of experience in that up in alaska Well, not just in alaska, but organ as well organ to they were they were starting to do some of the Um Power line inspections de-energized power line inspections and then of course with the if we talk about first responders If that's what you were leading to with the two incidents. I gave you about you know being asked by the fire Fairbanks police department helping two searches but Yes, you know and working with the power systems and You know, I think I think the key that you talked about was getting the requirements down And I think that's always the first step and get everybody's requirements. So do you think we could on the next day? So to speak that's a little bit Uh, you know a little bit wider than a day. Maybe next week have a telecon or something with the With the organ guys and with your guys and with eric and start coming up without a pool or yeah, I think that That's doable. I think it does. Let's uh, let's figure out how we're going to develop that after we take our first break here And come back and talk about how we're going to do that. Sure. It's a lot cool My name is ray tsuchiyama. I was raised in kalihi palama proud graduate of farrington high school And I want to say that think tech is a great program Brings people together and creates a really great community of concerned citizens For the future of hawaii Aloha and welcome to the savvy chick show on think tech hawaii I'm the weekly host at 11 a.m. Honolulu time very excited for the next six weeks We have the aspire series Which is all about the coolest careers I could find and interviewing and getting insights from these amazing people Who want to share it with you and help you live your dreams. Look forward to seeing you on the show Aloha Aloha, I'm carl campania. I hope you please visit us this summer. It's a wonderful summer It's actually a cooler summer than we're used to But I hope that you come back and visit us and watch our show education movers shakers and performers here on think tech hawaii It's at noon every wednesday. See you then We're back folks for the second half of our show where the drone leads and it leads to Increased business in our area our area being hawaii, alaska, and oregon through the pan pacific unmanned air systems test range range complex And supporting that is the national disaster preparedness training center And I think with that having pronounced both those terms you've just about shot the 15 minute second part of our far choker we're talking to nevada from who's a the Director at bpu trc out of university alaska fairbanks And iraq yama shita from ndp tc right down the street and we were talking before the break on How we could start thinking about pulling together a real no-kitting set of requirements It may you know, they may not be prioritized But they're a start and if we could start take those requirements and start running them against testing And then see which ones can be accomplished which ones can't and think in the stressed areas beyond what the faa allows today We're talking beyond line of sight We're talking cluster operations with multiple vehicles We're talking higher levels of autonomy in the command and control structure That would be a superb product out of our interactivity today And let me take us you know, there's no monologues a lot on this show except for the host Anyway, I just wanted to inject something into that thought process This is a they Drone racer drone And this is a pair of goggles is used to fly the drone racing And it still happens that in hawaiian two weeks will have 200 of the world's best drone racing pilots come into the game here And they operate Totally different from the rest of us they operate in this out of the goggles And they see multiple streams of information coming in in one or two d and they They compute it in 3d in their brains and they operate They operate incredibly close to Objects and of course, they can't hit them. He wouldn't serve you wouldn't serve the purpose of making a circuit around the course We found out that the performance margins of these kind of pieces of equipment are so high They have such a high rate of climb and such a high Turn radius Tight turn radius. They're extremely useful in search and rescue here in in the very steep terrain We have because you can fly we had a video clip on on a prior show You can fly within 10 or 15 feet of the surface all the way up to the 2000 foot top of the mountain And you're still only 30 feet agl You know, you're uh 2000 feet msl But within the agl requirements, no problem turn around and go down the other side So you can get by with very cheap optics because you're so close And if you look at vertical terrain, it's hard to get a good picture of vertical terrain and search and rescue from an Overflying aircraft, but if you're on the surface, it's a whole different game So one of the things we're going to do in this competition coming up is inject a search and rescue Challenge or task or test card and have the racers break off You got half an hour to start thinking how we're going to find this lost hiker and go after them So there's this thing that goes through my mind It's this technology transfer from things like racing into our normal conventional world And I'd like to inject that into our thoughts It's part of this part of the solution space in this Task we've just assigned ourselves to work with eric and come up with a A set of requirements that might roughly constitute what it means to do damage assessment post-disaster So what kind of people can we bring into that picture eric and how do we get them? My I think we need to again. Don't feel any pressure, you know I think as during that summit we heard from several people like George right in party And but he's also involved in other things that Let's do a shout out right here to George pretty that guy is Yeah, I think his IQ must be about 180. Don't don't try and challenge him. He's got it But you know, he's also watching coming from the first responder community I think it's good to get some of these first responders in the In the picture and get them involved in the discussion and then Also bring in some engineers structural engineers or other types of engineers and then also the Maybe some of the UAV manufacturers and others to see what kind of sensors and you know said so that we can Kind of come up with an idea of what what's the technology that we need for this to assess That's interesting bringing in a manufacturer I know a lot of the manufacturer people and you bring them and then I worked at Boeing. Okay, if you want a fighter, what kind of 15 did you want? I mean, that's how it works and So we probably wanted I would suggest we do ourselves first as And as users and then come up with that list and then have that dialogue with the manufacturers but in terms of Dammit structures people and such. This is an interesting point. I wonder how George would think about What he would characterize damage Assessment as a damage assessment for the sake of rebuilding the place damage assessment for the sake of deciding where you're going to where you're going to rebuild it or damage assessment from the perspective of doing Entry and you want to make sure the stuff's not going to fall down on you when you go in Damage assessment probably has a bunch of different things in the minds of different people when they hear that I think when the last item you brought up about Structure collapsing that that kind of falls in line with the search and rescue as well You know Because with our partners at teeks and they they I think they deal directly with search and rescue and then we were Trying to look at how how can we partner with them as well, you know using good Okay, so we'll bring Eric. We don't have to reinvent that wheel user in fact that goes to the point you made nevada over and over again Don't reinvent the wheel exactly if it exists somewhere else. Let's bring it in So that's the beauty of going to oregon and bringing their point of view on this Disaster operations uas capability and function Also, you know the department of emergency management here mel kakoo and those guys they'd like to be They'd like to be included in these in these discussions and they should be And so that's all something we should maybe Maybe when you leaving john I'm leaving but john's leaving when and the matter leaving when well, both of us are gonna be on a flight on monday Monday. Yeah, well, so we can't get you next week to Extend this thing any longer. What time you leave it on monday? Eight o'clock. Oh, okay Because uh, I think uh, we obviously have to include you in this conversation that would for for obvious and and logical reasons, but um, We could really Put a sort of a prototype Total overall program here. What's the real users in the state needs? How does he measure success and then how do we fulfill that? What do we find the gaps and fill that gap with technology? And I think that's part of what you were going to is to find out, you know, exactly who we need to bring into this too because You know having done a little bit of this up at fairbanks with the police department and you know in the fire department On search and rescue and then who you're going to bring in from, you know, locally what they're looking for in the engineer side For the stability of the building. So I think the first step is really kind of getting our list together Which we could do that and then from there start looking at what the requirements are and then building from there And you know going back to george he used a term in the presentation He gave at the panel called the search and rescue space He wanted to characterize the search and rescue space and I thought well That's a pretty cool definition because it doesn't just say give me a simple parameter of some kind But characterize the space and the thing that's intriguing about that is the space Can be characterized by what you measure and it can be characterized by what history had what that space used to look like What it looks like today and you could even put simulation in there and you could put virtual reality terms and such in there in for example There's certain Piles of debris a human can climb over and there are certain piles you can't so you could determine immediately Where there's lines of access and where there's not based on by on analysis so If you get the actual operators involved as you said, I think you get a completely Enhanced picture certainly an enhanced picture and it may be a different picture from what you as a as a desk analyst might have Might have thought and I look at myself as a desk analyst And then my ideas get shattered by the reality of the real operators Well, even getting the operators in there As well at the bottom level is is key to that as well because you want to have The knowledge of what the pilots can do and what their Aircraft can do with you know oblique sensing and looking which are talking about determining height And what the sensors could do so there's a lot of that As far as the remark requirements go which would build up to what We would build on our test case and you know and I think to the point you were just making that we kind of made together here The operational style of that organization may have a lot to do with what the factors are that are important Example i'm thinking of it as just you mentioned it triggered my thought we had a fire in mililani Two or three years ago it took some uas up to support the fire department Put infrared on i'm thinking that they'd want to find the hotspots because the fire was burning low Not big flames, but stuff was going under the desert under the forest peak and popping up No, they didn't want that they wanted smoke Which means you got to pull the sensor off put rgb on and go look at the where the smoke is The reason is because the helicopter that drops off two guys with firefighter equipment looks for smoke And so they wanted the uas to do the same thing that the man helicopter does And that fits well with the training and with the doctrine and such So sometimes the technology you think might do the job in fact may but it doesn't fit the operational Flow that's going on and therefore it's not useful And that's also why it's important after an operation like that is to have a hot wash And find out what you know really was good and what we could do better on And to get everybody involved and then even You know just follow wants to that and that helps build your aircraft up helps with the Pilot training and what they're looking for as well as the engineers And that means eric we start turning ndp tc into a action generator and a and a integrator and tester of concepts as much as a Developer of training material. Yeah, you know, I mean as you mentioned ocean it We kind of work closely with them too and you know as they're building components and testing stuff as well We kind of talk to them and see what can fit with our training how we can You know come up with ideas together and things like that As well with you and no better maybe and others I think we starting to assign eric to uh to uh some some uh patrols out here police patrols fire patrols and such and uh Come back with the reality of what it's like under the helmet and in the gloves You'd love that wouldn't you? In fact, I bet you wouldn't mind doing some tour and tour duty up in alaska. No, I wouldn't mind that Okay, well, you got a volunteer right here. Exactly. Yeah, okay So that's great. So, uh, I think this I love outcomes out of this program We can actually do something instead of just bottle heads that are talking and uh, that's me I don't mean you guys. I mean, I appreciate you coming on the show That's this the show is marked by the people who come on it. That's how it works. So that's that's great that you're here So we'll take this for real. We'll take uh what erics Uh new direction is will help him move forward and we'll offer him ppu trc as a place to start Working out some of the kinks and the bugs and also feed information back to the faa in the process And this is the leadership function that the faa is looking for and it's it's great to fulfill that And by the way, uh, we should do a hail out to the faa. They've done a great job in the last year or two. I mean People complained for a long time then suddenly 3 3 3 is hit and then suddenly 107 hit And suddenly we have the waivers on 107 and we're going to have the something else by the end of the year I don't know what it is, but it's moving so fast now. We can't track it anymore and uh, anyway Nevada thanks for coming on the show first time And I think again you completed we probably have had a hundred percent of the Alaska population on the show by now eric The frequent flyer on the show appreciate that and we got an assignment for you And I think a way to go forward here That's going to be useful and we can take this take this into our discussion about primo primo just so you know It's a pacific rim orientation of resilience thinking people and it happens in march every year And why don't we invite you guys are on a pacific rim last I looked at the map Yes, we ought to be here primo And we're going to pull all these kind of requirements together based on the training We do to ourselves right here in your near-term Need here in Hawaii. We'll expand that to the Pacific and get those requirements from everybody And with that Oh, thank you very much for coming on once one more time Nevada. Thanks Eric And uh, we'll see you all next Friday folks and we have senator Will Esparro on And uh, Peter Quigley and we'll be doing a hot wash on the summit Thanks very much


Hello and welcome to this CUBE conversation. I'm Lisa Martin. This is going to be a great conversation about corporate social responsibility. And I'm very pleased to have two great guests here with me today. Kieran McCloskey joins us, the Director of Internal Communications and Corporate Philanthropy at NETSCOUT. And Professor Sally Eves is here as well, the CEO of Aspirational Futures. She's also a Professor of Emergent Tech and is CTO by background. Ladies, welcome to the program. It's great to have you on today. Thank you. Absolute pleasure. Thank you. Great to join you both. We're going to get some great perspectives here. As I mentioned, corporate social responsibility, we're seeing that emerge across every industry and every company is really focused on that. Kieran, I want to start with you. Where tech companies are concerned? We see corporate social responsibility really aligning with STEM and STEAM. Why is that? There's probably a couple of reasons. I sort of wrap it up as it's what employees do. It's part of their job, so they get excited about it and they want to share what they do with the next generation. And the other aspect that helps it align with tech is it involves the educational aspect. So we're teaching and we need up-and-coming students and employees and entrepreneurs with those skills. And the other part about STEM is when you think of it, it's typically K to 12 and then it rolls into college and it's working with students in the next generation. So the education and the pipeline or the education and the students speak to the pipeline aspect and then you add in people getting excited about their job and what they do and that's the employee engagement aspect. So it really brings the two pieces together. I want to dig into that employee engagement in a minute. I wanted to get your perspective. Tell us a little bit about aspirational futures and then let's talk about the alignment between that and STEM and STEAM. Absolutely. So yeah, aspirational futures are a nonprofit, kind of working across tech education and social impact and really looking at kind of opening up opportunities in the industry to a diversity of experience and using tech and data as a force for good. We do projects locally and across the world. I'm kind of breaking down those barriers. It's kind of all that democratization of opportunity, I would say. And in terms of STEM to STEAM, that's where I see the journey going at the moment. And effectively with that STEAM focus, you're bringing the arts to an equal stage to the tech skills as well. So for me, that's really important because it comes down to curiosity, encouraging people to get into the sector, showing what you can do, building creative confidence, emotional intelligence, those types of skills alongside the tech skills to actually build it. So it's that combination. There's complementary factors that come together. So for me, STEAM is a great way to get holistic learning for life. With the rate of change we've got at the moment, it kind of gives you that tool set to work from to be empowered and confident for the future. That confidence is so critical for anybody of any age, right? But one of the things that we've seen that is in the inaugural ESG report that NetScout just published is this digital divide. We've seen it for quite a while now, but we also saw it grow during the pandemic. Sally, from your perspective, what is that? And how can tech companies help to fill that gap? It's a great point. I think one other thing that the pandemic did was made it more visible as well. So I think particularly if we're working in certain spaces, we've seen it more, but I think for everybody, it's affected our daily lives and education from home, for example, for the first time, it's made gaps more visible. So absolutely huge to focus on that. And I think we're seeing it from the organizational perspective as well. We're seeing gaps around certain types of roles. We've seen higher churn because of a lack of data literacy skills. So it's becoming something that's become an acute conversation in day-to-day family life, but in organizations across the world as well. And also it's about challenging assumptions. Just a few weeks ago, there was some research that came out at the University of Reading in the UK in a common with other universities as well. And it was kind of showing that actually, you can't make the assumption, for example, that teenagers that kind of call digital natives all the time actually have full confidence in using data either. It was actually showing there were gaps there too. So we've got to challenge assumptions. So literacy in all its forms, whether it's data, whether it's financial is absolutely key. And we've got to start earlier. So what I'm seeing more of is better outreach from tech companies and other organizations into primary schools, through to universities as well, kind of internships and placements, but also another really interesting area that we do with the nonprofit is looking at data waste as well. You know, 90% of data that's archived isn't touched again after kind of three months. You think about the amount of data we're producing at the moment. How can we reuse that as a force for good as a training opportunity? So let's think creatively, let's be pragmatic, address some of these data literacy gaps, but we have to do it at all levels of the community. And also for adult learners too, that's hugely important. Right, it's, there's no, it knows no age and you're right that the visibility on it, I think it can be a very good thing, shining that light finally going, we've got to do something. Karen, talk to us about what NetScout is doing. The digital divide is there. You guys are really focused on helping to mitigate that. That's right, that's right. So as guardians of the connected world, that's our job with our customers and our products, but also with our people in our communities is getting people connected and how can we do that? And in what ways are we able to do that? And recently we engaged with Tech Goes Home, which is based in Boston and they provide those first three pillars that everybody needs, access to a device, access to the internet and skills to use that. And they work with families and students and they say their programs go from nine to 90. So they've got everybody covered. And what's exciting for us is it kind of falls from a volunteer perspective right in our wheelhouse. So they had to transition from in-person to distance learning with the pandemic and suddenly their program materials needed to be online and they needed to get people up and running without the benefit of an in-person class. What NetScout volunteers were able to do was create those tutorials and those programs that they needed.  So Tech Goes Home and programs like that are really that first step in bridging the digital divide. And then once you've got the basics, the toolkit and the skills, what else can you do when Sally mentioned visibility? It's what are the opportunities? What can I do now? I didn't realize there was a career path here. I need these skills to build a business, help me learn more. So then there's that whole other aspect of furthering what they can do now that they have those skills and the learning and something like a hackathon might be a fun way to engage kids in those skills and help them go a little further with the tools they have. And NetScout's done a number of hackathon programs. Last year, I know you had an all girls hackathon virtually in 2020. Talk to me about some of that and then I wanna get Sally, I wanna get your perspectives on what you're doing as well. So our hackathons, and I'll try and keep this brief because we've done a lot. They were actually brought forward as an employee idea. So that also speaks to our culture. It's like, hey, we should do more of this. We have a partner with Shooting Stars Foundation and one of our employees is one of their, or is their board chair and the hackathons, what they do is they, and these are beginners hackathons. So we're talking middle, high school and the theme is civic. So something good for society. And what we do is over a course of 12 hours, not to mention all the pre-planning. When we had the in-person ones, they were in our office. They got to see employees up close, run around the building to the extent that they could and build their project. And Sally, I think you had also mentioned that creativity and that confidence. I mean, what those kids did in a day was amazing. They came in and they're all kind of looking around and they don't really know what to do. And at the end of the day, they had made new friends. They were standing up in front of executive judges presenting their idea. And they all felt really good about it and they had fun. So I think it can be a fun, impactful way to both engage employees because it's a heck of a team building experience and sort of bring students in and give them that visibility to what's possible in a tech career. And that confidence. Sally, talk to me about hackathons from your perspective and what you're involved in. Absolutely, funny enough, I've just come from one. So I'm at COP26 at the moment and I've been involved in one with a university. Again, using that talent and building that empowerment around SDG challenges. So in this particular case around sustainability. So I absolutely love that. And really echo Karen's thoughts there about how this is a reciprocal relationship. It's also super rewarding for all the employees as well. We're all learning and learning from each other which I think is a fantastic thing. And also another point about visibility. Now, seeing someone in a role that you might wanna do in the future I think is hugely important as well. So as part of the nonprofit, I run a series called 365. And that's all about putting visibility on role models in tech every single day of the year. So not for example, just like International Women's Day or Girls in ICT Day, but every single day for a diversity of experience because I think it's really important to interview people for a C-suite level. But equally, I just did an interview with a 14 year old who did an amazing project in their community to support a local hospital using a 3D printer. It makes it relatable. You can see yourself in that particular role in the future. And you can also show how tech can be used for good business, but also for good for society at the same time. I think that can challenge assumptions and show there's lots of different roles. There's lots of different skills that make a difference in a tech career. So coding can be really important, but so is empathy and so is communication skills. So again, going back to that steam focus, there's something for everyone. I think that's really important to kind of knock down those boundaries, challenge assumptions and drop the stem drop-off we see, make it a little bit more steam-focused. I think that can help challenge those assumptions and get more people curious, creative, confident about tech. I couldn't agree more curious, creative and confident, the three C's that will help anyone. And also to Sally to your point, showing the breadth and diversity of roles within tech, coding is one of them. It might be one of the ones that's most known, but there's so many opportunities to allow these kids to be able to see what they can be is game-changing, especially in today's climate. Karen, talk to me about, you mentioned in the beginning of our interview, Karen, the employee engagement. I know that environmental, social governments is core to NetScout's DNA, but we're talking over 2,400 employees in 35 countries. Your folks really want to be engaged and have a purpose. Talk to me about how you got the employees together. It sounds like it was maybe from within. That's absolutely right. We have a way to support employees when they bring forth these good ideas. And the hackathon was one example of that. And the cool thing about the hackathons is that it leads to all these other community connections and people bring forth other ideas. So we had an in-person hackathon at our Allen office in 2019. Some of the employees there met staff from Collin College who said, hey, we'd like to bring this hackathon to us. So then the employees said, hey, can we do a hackathon with Collin College? So really it's employee-driven, employee-organized, supported by the company with the resources and other employees love to be part of that. And the event at Collin College brought out all those skills from the students. It was on climate change, so relatively hot topic. And they did a fantastic job while they were there. But that employee engagement, as you said, it comes from within. So they have the idea, we have a way and a path that they can find what is needed in their community and deliver on that. And it really becomes a sense of pride and accomplishment that it wasn't a top-down mandate that you must go volunteer or paint this wall. They identified the need in the community, proposed the project, get the volunteers, get the corporate support and go forth and do it. And it's really amazing to see what people do in their community. Well, incredibly rewarding and fulfilling, but also very symbiotic. There's one thing that's great about the students, or those that are from 9 to 90, like you said, having a mentor or mentors and sponsors. But it's also another thing for employees to be even more productive and proud of themselves, to be able to mentor and sponsor those folks in the next generations coming up. I can imagine that employee productivity would likely increase because the employees are able to have something fulfilling or rewarding with these programs. Karen, talk to me a little bit about employee productivity as a side benefit of this. Well, I was going to say, during the hackathons, I don't know how productive we are because there's a lot of planning and pre-work that goes into it. But I think what happens is it's an incredible team-building experience across the company. So you're reaching out to executives, hey, would you be a judge for this event? And you're explaining what it is and where it is. And you're roping your coworkers into spending 12 hours with you on a Sunday. And then you're finding somebody who has access to a speaker. So you're talking to people about it. It's outside your day-to-day job.  I work with them on the hackathon. Or I can go up and talk to this executive because we hung out in the hackathon room for X many hours on a Saturday. So it's another way to build those relationships, which in the end help you be more productive as a whole across the company. Absolutely. Relationship-building, networking, those are all critical components to having a successful career, whether we're talking about STEAM or not. I want to unpack something, Sally, that you said in our remaining few minutes. You talked about challenging assumptions. And I guess, suppose I'm one of those ones that always assumes if I see a Gen Z-er, they're going to know way more about how to use my phone than I do. But to bring up a really good point, that there are these assumptions that we need to focus on, shine the light on, address them, and crack them wide open to show these folks from 9 to 90 that there are so many opportunities out there. They're limitless out there, I would say. Absolutely. Absolutely. It's all about breaking down those barriers. And that research I mentioned, something like 43% of teenagers, about 16 to 21 years of age, were saying they don't build data literate. And that assumption is incorrect again. So making sure we include everyone in this conversation. So going as young as possible in terms of introducing people to these opportunities, but making sure we don't leave any particular age group behind, it's that breadth of engagement with all ages is absolutely key. But again, showing there are so many different routes into tech as a career. There isn't one linear path. You can come from a different area. And those skills will be hugely valid in a tech career. So absolutely challenging assumptions, changing the narrative about what a tech career looks like, I think is absolutely hugely important. Hence why I do that series, because you want to see someone that's relatable to you, at your next level potentially. And something three steps ahead, it just makes it so important. So for me, democratization of opportunity, breaking down barriers, showing that you can go around different ways, and it's absolutely fine. And do you know what? That will probably, you can learn from that experience. You can learn from mistakes. All those things make a difference.  And don't let anyone hold you back and reach out for a mentor. You mentioned sponsorship earlier on as well. I think that's another thing as well, kind of using the spirit of influence we develop in our careers and maybe through social media and helping people along the way, not just through mentorship, but through active sponsorship as well. There's so many things we can do together. I think organizations are really listening to this. There's better embedding around DEI initiatives now than ever before. And as Karen's been describing, fantastic outreach into communities through hackathons, through linking up with schools. So I think we're getting a real contagion of change that's positive here. And I think the pandemic has helped. It's helped us all to kind of pause and reflect what we stand for as people, as organizations, all the way through. And I'm really excited that we can really harness this energy and take it forward and really make a difference here by coming together. And that is such a great silver lining, all of those points said that you mentioned. Karen, I want to wrap with you. There's great momentum within NETSCOUT. I mentioned over 2,400 employees actively, so many people in the employee community, actively engaging in the hackathons and the opportunities to show from nine-year-olds to nine-year-olds the opportunities that STEAM delivers. So what's next for NETSCOUT? What can we anticipate? More hackathons, more focus on the digital divide. I just want to, as Sally was speaking, something occurred to me when you said it's never a clear path on the tech journey. I would love to be listening to one of those conversations 10 years from now and have somebody say, oh, you know, when you ask that question that you're always asked, you know, what got you on your journey, what started? I'd love to someone say, oh, I went to this hackathon once. And ever since then, I got interested in it. That would be a lot of fun. I would love to see that. And for NETSCOUT, we're going to continue to do what we do best. You know, we focus on where we can make a difference. We go in wholeheartedly. We engage with volunteers. And we'll just keep doing what we're doing. Excellent, ladies. What a great conversation. I love the lights that you're shining on these very important topics there. You're right. I talk to a lot of people about their career paths and they're very zigzaggy. It's the exception to find one that we're studying computer science or engineering. But Karen, I have no doubt with the focus that NETSCOUT's putting that Sally, that your organization, is putting on things like hackathons, getting people out there educated, becoming data literate, that no doubt the narrative will change in the next few years. So I went to this hackathon and NETSCOUT did. And here I am now. So great work, very important work. I think the pandemic has brought some silver linings there to what your organizations are both doing and look forward to seeing the next generation that you're inspiring. Thank you so much. Real pleasure. Likewise, for Sally, Yves and Karen McCloskey, I'm Lisa Martin. You're watching a CUBE conversation.