I'm joined by Mark Dunkley. Mark started off as a product manager at Shopify back in 2009 when you guys were only 10 employees. So you've really seen the growth of a startup to become a much larger company as a product manager. And now you've transitioned to a role leading one of the design projects, which is really cool because I think the designers and product managers are probably the two groups or two roles that work very closely together from the inception of a product to actually delivery of it. So welcome, Mark. Thanks Felix. Yeah, so what were you doing before product management? What kind of roles did you have before? What kind of jobs did you work at before? Yeah, when you're a company of around nine or 10 people, your roles are really loosely defined. Everyone's doing everything and obviously we didn't really have product managers until like officially probably around the nine year 100 mark. We didn't really have anyone specifically owning a specific product or a project even. It was all kind of in the air, if you will. And I think that works for some cultures and it doesn't work for some cultures, but around the 90 mark we started experimenting with with product managers and putting a formal team in place. So when I first joined, I was the first designer. The design co-founder hired me Daniel and I was the first like full-time designer for Shopify. So definitely got to grow from a small team to 550, I think we're at right now. Cool. So when you said that you were basically, you know, brought in one of their only 10 employees, how did you get the job? I was trying to apply for like a summer job and I just met Toby and Daniel, the two founders for Coffee and Cody's also founder too. Toby and Daniel and and they saw some of my Shopify work because I eventually got on to e-commerce for my freelance career. There's some small projects, one was like a bakery and the site was featured on like Shopify as like best design website and stuff. So we were having coffee and they just said like, hey, we'd love you to work for Shopify. And that was in the summer and then I dropped out of school after that because I just loved it so much and I did not like school at all. What were you going to school for? Business, business. I was in the University of Ottawa's business program and it was good. You meet a lot of people and did case competitions and the extracurricular stuff really helped but I can't recall a single like thing I learned in class from from school unfortunately. Yeah, that seems to be the kind of common theme.  Yeah, I'm technical all the way up until like just don't ask me to write any tests like for my code and I'm fine. I swear just a little EIB snippets, designing HTML, CSS, JavaScript, all that fun stuff. Does a product manager need to be technical is a really interesting question. I feel like the most important thing for a product manager is he adds value to his team. And if you're working on a problem that's like super niche, maybe like for example shipping and you're talking about like UPS and how the brokerage deals with UPS or FedEx or whatever, then if that product manager has an extraordinary amount of knowledge in that field both from understanding the trials and tribulations of a merchant and also understands what it is from a UPS and FedEx perspective as well, that's an incredible amount of knowledge to bring to the table. And I don't think that person necessarily has to be as technical as long as he's flanked by some really head designer or lead developer as long as he has those resources available to him. In some ways being technical can be a bit of a burden because if you don't know how to step back and give your developers and designers breathing room to actually explore and make their own mistakes, it can get you in a lot of trouble. And that was definitely one of the mistakes I made when I first came in there. Obviously, I had a bit more knowledge about Shopify than everyone else. I was trying to bestow this cornucopia of knowledge upon these people and I think in reality, you should just let them make their own mistakes and really act as a mentor more than anything. So I think it depends on the project. I definitely would struggle in trying to estimate timelines and estimate the value of projects and how long it would take if I was non-technical and I think in a role like Shopify, you have to be technical because we're so engineering driven. It just gives you respect and you can communicate better with your peers. Yeah, I agree with that. I think that being too technical, I guess you can't really be too technical but you do want to let people that you've hired or let people that's on your team do the jobs that they're good at and that they were brought in to do. And I think what we were talking about before the start of this recording about how I think the product management role, product management job is very transferable to being the CEO or being the founder of a startup or founder of a company and those are kind of challenges that I think a lot of founders experience at first where when they are just by themselves, they have this kind of superhero mentality where they try to do everything themselves or try to have their hands in everything but this is not scalable and that's the main reason why you hire and as a product manager, that's the reason why you have people like designers, project managers and actual developers working with you rather than you doing everything yourself. And you were actually a founder for two companies and you previously worked as a freelancer which is I think a pretty common trait is entrepreneurial experience that a lot of product managers have and now that you are on the product management side and design side working at a company, how do you feel like the skills are transferable between a product manager at a company and then if someone wants to start a company of their own later? Yeah, I think they're very related, very closely related. I see like designers, entrepreneurs and product managers all kind of similar in the sense that they really care a little bit extra in the user experience. They really care about the overall how they sign up to how they get into the product and the first few days in the product especially. Those three roles really care about that initial experience so they're definitely transferable especially I think the biggest thing more so with entrepreneurial and CEO and product management is just time management and establishing a roadmap. Those are skills that are transferable. Even when you leave, if you become a designer again or a developer again you're able to kind of ask yourself, okay, is this something that we should be working on? Is this important? Does it fit my criteria? If you get a chance to do product management and you're a developer, designer, secretary, whatever, definitely jump on it because there's nothing more like as a designer right now, I'm living with the design projects at Shopify. I can communicate better with my product manager or director, whoever I'm speaking with because I understand what they value, what they're judged against and how we both can work together a lot better. So yeah, they're always transferable between the two. The only real difference between product management and design is just what you do day to day. Yeah, I actually want to jump into that next because I heard a lot of things there about the different teams that you work with, how prioritization is important. How does your actual day to day, when you were a product manager, how did it break out? What did you do first thing in the morning all the way to the rest of the day? That's a tough one, man. If you asked me if I was a designer, it'd be a lot easier. But as a product manager, I think Paul Graham wrote an essay on the schedules for manager versus makers. So we basically hypothesized that as a designer, engineer, developer, whatever, you're on the maker schedule in the sense that you have a morning, you have lunch, and then you have an afternoon to work on stuff. But as a manager, you're on an hour, hour by hour, half an hour time block. So you have a meeting here, a meeting here, I am here, coffee with this guy, interview with this guy. It's a lot more broken up. But to give you a typical day, I wake up and I stroll in the office around nine o'clock and just hammer out my inbox for at least an hour. Email is a very dangerous thing when you're a product manager because you can literally spend all day in your inbox perfecting every single little response and brainstorming ideas on how to respond to somebody's question.  It got to the point where I had to write down what I was doing every day just so I could remember what I did that day. Because as a designer, you have all this tangible output. You can see all the design, you can see all the impact. But as a product manager, it's just calendars and small, almost trivial interactions with people. Yeah. So it sounds like one of the, and I experienced this too as a product manager, one of the, I guess you can say cons of being a product manager, one of the difficult parts of being a product manager is that your job is interacting with so many different departments. And sometimes it is not very tangible what you did. And usually the products that you work on are so spread out over, you know, X periods of months or quarters that you don't really get to see the actual work that you produce. You know, but that doesn't mean that it's not valuable every day that you put in, you're the one kind of glue that holds the entire team together, making sure that communication happens throughout everything.   I think, I think there's probably like two things that jumped to mind right away. Number one is to get the bird's eye perspective on the company. You really understand what every team is working towards. And yeah, you can understand this as a as an engineer designer, but you don't do that on a regular basis. You don't talk to the people that you should be talking to on a regular basis. And as a product manager, you're forced to speak to everybody, even like, you know, the head of support, which you probably won't speak to as a designer. So it really gives you kind of a broad overview and you understand as a company that you're moving towards a certain goal, which is which is really, really nice. The next thing that kind of jumps out at me as being a product manager is just being able to see those like as a product manager, you don't actually produce anything. Can you always kind of let your team shine? You never kind of take credit for anything. So as a product manager, you never actually like really do stuff. You don't actually have responsibility. You're responsible for X. You are responsible for however, as those little ideas that you put into somebody's head where you're kind of facilitating these ideas. So for example, one, I remember one time specifically, I'm like, hey guys, people have a lot of problems building a Shopify template. This is from a web design or freelance perspective, a technical perspective. We were talking about it and one of the people said, hey, why don't we make a bootstrap for Shopify? I'm like, yeah, I love that. I just initiated the problem. I presented the problem to them and they came up with the solution. They have instant buy-in and they're able to continue on down that road. And I think that's really awesome. And you know that was kind of like your, like if you weren't there at the company, that may have not happened. That's one of the coolest parts. Yeah, one thing that I've heard and I think this is again, really related to or very similar to the experience that a CEO or a leader has is that if you have a big win, it's your teams.  If there's something that goes wrong, then you take the responsibility as a product manager. So there are the emphasis on pushing your team through and putting them, in motivating them and getting them to really shine or help them really shining and do really good at what they do. And speaking of doing things that, working with these designers and project managers and other members, whether that be partners or clients, what kind of tools do you rely on a day-to-day basis to help you do your job as a product manager? I think the only special, aside from like IAM and Calder and all that, the only kind of tool that I use that not a lot of other people use is called Simple Note, which is essentially just like Evernote. And I just have a bunch of tabs for any current thoughts or projects. And I write down a lot. There's so many conversations, so many meetings. There has to be something that comes out of those conversations. If not, there's no point in me being there or talking to that person. So usually whenever I have a conversation, I just have a tab, this is meetings, and I just summarize what we talked about. The next thing is probably, and that's unique to me, is that we have an internal app called, I think it's just called a roadmap or something. And it lists all, for each product, it has a list of all the initiatives they're thinking about, that they're working on, that they've shipped, and that they're polishing on. So you can see different states of ideas. And then it also gives you a little bit of a framework to how easy it is, how valuable it is to customers, et cetera, et cetera. So you're able to kind of get a numerical value of the project. Obviously, it's not 100% accurate. But those are probably the two biggest tools that I use day to day. Who's responsible for updating something like that? Because at a company that I worked at as a product manager, we use like Jira for things like roadmaping. And similarly, we had states where things were in like a backlog, or currently being worked on, or prioritized for a certain quarter of the year to be worked on. And but who at Shopify would be responsible for moving things along or deciding how things move along the roadmap? Are you talking about like if it gets this like the stamp of approval, or are you talking about like who actually manages like the ideas and stuff? Yeah, I guess who, the former, like who's actually the one that decides what goes through each, when should it move to the next state? Right now with the way they focus on product management, but the way we kind of used to do it is if the product manager has an idea, he would share it with the director of product management during one of the either the monthly or weekly review or just meetups kind of thing. And then they talk about a little bit further. And then if it gets the green light, it's good to go keep going down that path. I don't think anyone at Shopify is going to tell you, no, you can't work on that. I've rarely ever had that happen. But I have happened like in a really bad, I've had the CEO go like, wait, what is this? Like, when did you start this? Like, what is this for? And like, that wasn't that was not a good move by me. Definitely like over communicate your ideas, if anything, but nothing. Yeah, it's your responsibility as a product manager to curate your roadmap, curate your ideas and present those in a in a presentable fashion. But yeah, no one ever said, said, no, don't do that. It's not that it's pretty flat the organization. What about like things like wireframes or mockups? You know, now that you work as a designer, I'm sure you experienced it a lot, but as a product manager, were you using tools to put together kind of very basic first draft mockups for your designer? Yeah, that's one of the things you got to watch out for. As a designer, that's what I did initially is I just created the mockups myself. But then this is one of the things that we're talking about earlier is you have to give designers space to be designers, and you have to give engineers the space to be engineers. You whenever I mock up something that could be an opportunity for the designer to explore the idea, because they're gonna be one running with it, right? They're gonna be want to continue it from that if I kind of show them this polished mockup, and it kind of gives the impression like, well, why don't you just do it? You already have done like most of the work. It's almost like they're picking up the scraps. So as a product manager, as a design, formerly a design product manager, I would definitely stay away from mocking up any concept. It's fine to mock up stuff and show them to your peers, your other product managers, or the CEO or whoever, but definitely draw the line when you show your team this stuff and keep it really light if anything, you know, whiteboard stuff.  Your entire team should be with you as soon as you start thinking about this idea. It's really important not to go out on your own in brainstorming these ideas, because in a kickoff when you all together as a team talking about the problem, and you have all the answers, well, it's like, well, why are we here? Like, what's the point? And you've missed a lot of good feedback from everyone. And that's definitely the art of product management is being able to guide everyone to that solution you think is appropriate or can actually solve the problem. Yeah, I totally agree with that. I think that's one of the key benefits. If you are going to make mockups, it's really good exercise for you just to have a better understanding of the features that you want to build and kind of map it out in your mind and see like what parts you haven't thought about yet, whether that means from a user experience perspective or just, you know, empty forms that you didn't think that you didn't ever consider that are now really evidence now that it's laid out in a physical form for you. And, you know, speaking of, you know, working with a designer, or speaking of working with other teams, what's your number one tip for working with a designer than if you are, because you're saying that before that they are, they should be a part of the process from the beginning. Maybe we'll start there, you know, who should be working with you from the get go in determining the problem and, you know, from day zero essentially. I think, yeah, determining the problem is definitely the product manager's domain. You know, I don't think you should involve your necessarily involve your team in identifying problems that we should solve. A lot of the time people will look up to you for the problem to be solved. So in that case, the UX team is huge, you know, being in constant communication with them, being in constant communication with their customers trying to understand what they're trying to do with the product and what problems they're having in was blocking them from achieving what they want to achieve. So those groups definitely customers UX people are my two most favorite people to kind of involve in the problem assessing stage, as well as your peers on other product managers, you know, keep this in mind as well. They're always aware of all the problems that they face, and they can even elaborate on some of the problems in their areas. So like if we're talking about the product page and Shopify, you know, adding a product, well, like the guys that handle shipping may have something to say about this, the guys that are theme designers or the theme, theme product team may have like whenever the upload images, they're always the wrong aspect ratio. How can we solve that problem? So you always get a much broader vision as well talking product managers. Now when you work with a designer, what are you like handing off in terms of like actual artifacts or documents, like what do you do you meet with them? Like how do you transition your knowledge and your understanding of the problem and your proposed solution? How do you get that into the designers like hand so they can do their job? Yeah. So I try never kind of hand off anything. Again, like I'm very, I'm very conscious. Now I'm very conscious before I wasn't about about whenever you whenever you start to approach a problem, always make sure that they're involved right from the start.  They're not a part of solving. They never had a say to begin with like, even when we talk with a problem like, well, is this actually the problem we're trying to solve and as soon as early as early as possible, bring in your designers and developers as soon as you're like the master of the problem, you fully understand all the variables and what potentially is a successful solution. That could be just a sentence. Like if we're trying to solve a specific problem in Shopify, you can kind of just say like, hey, we're trying to make sure that people can upload images without screwing up the aspect ratio. That's our solution. I don't know how we're going to get there guys, but anyone have ideas and just rapidly prototype stuff. And again, you always have a few ideas in your back pocket. I mean, I'm relying on your team to solve these problems for you. You're responsible as a product manager to guide and to form and sculpt these ideas and make sure that they're always on the right track and they're always, you know, towards that end goal of making sure that the aspect ratios of images are an all messed up or whatever. And what about developers? How do you work with developers when you were a product manager and any tips that you can provide on effectively communicating with developers? Developers is tough because I'm not a developer. And a lot of the time you feel like you're going blind in a lot of situations. If I say, hey, man, can you fix this bug? And it may take the developer one entire day. It may take almost one entire week. And you're kind of like, should this take an entire week? You're not actually sure if the person's performance is really being maximized here. So if you're not a designer, if you're not an engineer, it's really important to have somebody in the company that you can kind of talk to on a regular basis. In this case, we had a lead engineer, and I was able to sit down with him every Friday, like a minimum 10 minutes, I just explained to him what's going on. And then if I had any other things to bring up with him, like, hey, some guy was we're going to bug for a week, you like, is this crazy? Or is this stupid? And it also actually vet a lot of the ideas with the lead engineer, as well, before I kind of brought it to the team and be like, hey, man, is this like a crazy solution? What should I know? So having someone you trust in areas that you are not particularly, you know, fantastic at is definitely something that any product manager should consider. Yeah, having having like allies and like champions, essentially, in the different departments can go really far in terms of getting you the the resources that you need or balancing the feedback or getting feedback from ideas, you know, from them. And you know, you mentioned earlier that one of your favorite people to talk to are your customers. You know, how do you usually communicate with customers and you do you do these like customer interviews to uncover problems and and you know, figure out what what's next to work on on the roadmap. Yeah, I thought I knew how to talk to customers and I saw a UX team in action and like, wow, they did an amazing job. Whenever you're speaking to customers, it's really important not to I think one of the most important things is not to seem like you're digging at anything, it's to have a casual conversation, really see what kind of indirect feedback gets given to you and and and try and and if you do have a specific problem or something in mind that you would like to tackle, for example, if we're talking about product page, we'd say like, hey, like, whatever you're adding products, like, do you find that easy? Do you find like, how do you how do you like, I'm so bad at asking customers and in relation to our UX team, we keep it friendly, keep it a conversation. Don't kind of try and stay away from bias as much as possible. As you see, I just did there, do you find adding products easy? Well, that's kind of a biased, a biased question right there. So yeah, I don't think there's too much crazy, crazy stuff with talking to customers that I mean, the most important thing is that your mind has a really good way of kind of bubbling up the top issues like the human mind can only remember, you know, the top two or top three, or maybe even just one thing about that page. So kind of don't worry about writing every single little detail down because it's just going to get lost and probably never come back to it. So yeah, just having a casual conversation and usually that merchant will be able to list at least one thing that they really are passionate about or so forth. Yeah, you know, speaking of not having biases when you are talking to customers, one thing that one recommendation from a senior product manager that gave me really good advice was to always stay away from yes or no questions rather than saying that, you know, asking them how they feel or maybe even just having them walk you through what they do when they are adding a new product to a product page. You can reveal things that they would not verbalize through words, you know, so cool.  So maybe your experience is a little bit different than other people out there that are, you know, already out of school in the job market. Do you have any recommendations on anybody that's reaching out if you were to interview a product manager? What kind of things can they do to really stand out above the crowd of all the other product managers that are, you know, sending in their resumes and applications? Yeah, I'm not too familiar with the whole resume approach. Obviously we just do the interviews and we have like a recruiting team in place to kind of browse through the resumes and stuff. Maybe I'll just kind of share a little bit about I'm never a huge fan of resumes or cover letters or anything like that. The way I got hired at Shopify is I met Toby and Daniel for coffee and then I went back home and that night I just redesigned the entire Shopify admin. There are things that I hated about it and just put it into a PDF document and I sent it to them that night. I'm like, Hey guys, I thought about like some of the ideas we could do with Shopify. Like here are some of the things that I have trouble with and then they were just blown away. Like they were super excited and I was hired on the spot. And the same story with product management, you know, I was a designer for a while and we had no kind of product team or product management team. I wanted to be, you know, I wanted to own something. I didn't necessarily want to be a product manager. I just want to own one area of Shopify that I could totally focus on and just kill. And I remember walking into Daniel's room and I sat down like, Hey Daniel, I want to own, I want to own theme store like the theme store where everyone gets their templates for for their online stores in Shopify. And he's like, well, I don't think that's like, you know, a full-time job. And I sat there and I'm like, Damn, like I don't have to say like, I could, I could say please, please. Like, no, it's not how you do it. You need to have like, well, I'll just continue the story on like, you know, a year later, I went up to Toby, the CEO, and I gave him a presentation saying like, here are five things I'd had to Shopify and identify the problem identified the solution with, you know, really polished mockups and prototypes and the results of these as well as the first thing we do after we implement it, whether it's an AB test or, you know, usage data, whatever. And then he said to me after meeting, he's like, Oh, maybe we'll make a product manager out of you yet. And three months later, I was a product manager. So going back to resumes and cover letters and how to get noticed. The biggest thing for me, my approach is always to be a lot more hands-on. I would take a problem in Shopify, or in any company you're applying for and explore it just as you were, if you were a real product manager, and, and that gives you so much to talk about in the interview. And it gives you a certain depth that no other candidate, I must say the same thing, will be able to touch. Yeah, totally. I think that one of the great things about the product management job when you're applying for one is that you can, it's really a meritocracy where you can prove that you can do the job before you, you do it, it really gives you a leg up. And you can't say the same for other, other, many other roles.


Welcome to Arterial Blood Gas. This learning object will explain what the values of an arterial blood gas mean. Coming up we have a few definitions. Please pause the video if you need extra time to review them. The normal values for an arterial blood gas are shown below. The key is to maintain the pH within a balance of 7.35 to 7.45. The partial concentration of carbon dioxide in the blood breaks down in the body to acid and water. The normal partial concentration of carbon dioxide in the blood is 35 to 45. Bicarbonate and base excess buffer and neutralize. Normal bicarbonate is 22 to 26. Normal base excess is negative 2 to positive 2. PO2 is the concentration of oxygen, a nice stat to know, but not essential for arterial blood gas analysis. Congratulations! You have completed the learning object for arterial blood gas.


Wednesday lunchtime seminar series of our New Voices in Global Security seminar series here at the School of Security Studies. My name is Dr. Amanda Chisholm and I am the organizer and chair of this series. For those of you who aren't familiar, the series itself is designed to raise the visibility and amplify the expertise of our PhD and post-doc and broader ECRs across the School of Security Studies. Today we are so pleased to welcome Dr. Lucrezia Kenzuti. The title of Lucrezia's talk is Collecting, Assembling, Ordering, Borders, Asylum, and the Invisible Labor of Data. Lucrezia is a research associate at the Department of War Studies here at King's College, London. She holds a PhD in politics from the University of York. Her past research focuses on migration to and within the global south, citizenship studies, and ill-liberalism. Currently, Lucrezia has a post-doc on the project Security Flows that's funded by ERC and led by Professor Claudia Arodao. Lucrezia today is joined by two discussants, so we're sure to have some great conversation. The first one is Dr. Saskia Staszewicz, who is an FWF Senior Research Fellow and Senior Visiting Researcher at CEU, as well as principal investigator of the FWF project, Risky Borders, Gender and Race in EU Border Security. The second discussant is Dr. Martina Tasioli. Martina is a lecturer in politics and technology at Goldsmith University, and her work explores the biopolitical mechanisms by which some subjects are racialized and governed as migrants, analyzing the intertwining of modes of objectification and subjectivities. Recently, she's investigated the technologization of border regimes and how technologies constitute a battlefield for migrants, states, and non-state actors. So without further ado, and so I can stop talking so we can get on to really what we're here to see. Lucrezia has agreed to talk for about 30 minutes for which then we'll move straight into the discussant's comments, questions, and feedback. Again, audience members, if you have any questions or comments or anything to ask, please again feel free to raise your hand if you want to ask it live or pop it in the chat box and I'll ask it to Lucrezia. But yeah, without further ado, Lucrezia, I'm handing the virtual floor over to you. Thank you so much, Amanda, and thank you for having me here. So yeah, today I'm going to present a paper titled, Collecting, Assembling, Ordering, Borders of Salam and Invisible Work of Data. And it's a paper that I'm writing with Claudia Aradão and it's very much a work in progress, so feel free to give comments, any comments are very much welcome. So before I start talking about the paper, perhaps it's useful to give you an overview of the project security flows and which I'm working on so that you know where the paper sits. So Security Flows analyzes how datafication, the process of transforming everyday lives into quantifiable data is also transforming borders and security today. So some of you may have followed Anna's presentation a couple of weeks ago, Anna talked about the use of AI at the border and the collection of data at the border, and this paper is related to that but looks at a different side of data collection, because there's been a lot of attention around the extraction of data at the border from migrants. But less is known about the data that migrants themselves have to collect in order to substantiate their asylum claims. So once they are in the country of destination. So here we understand data in a very broad sense, a lot of the literature focuses on digital data whereas we're expanding this understanding and looking at both digital and and analog data for example in the form of certificates photographs reports and so on. So looking at data from from this angle, allows us to show how justification doesn't doesn't stop at the border but but stretches throughout the asylum process so it's not just that migrants have to give the fingerprints or biographic details at the border but for years, people are repeatedly asked to provide data about themselves their bodies their relationships that their beliefs in order to demonstrate that they deserve protection that they are genuine asylum seekers right. And this process takes a lot of work, and it is this this work that we want to draw attention to in this paper and by the way we're also developing developing an art project with with Somerset house on this on this particular team theme. So what we hope to do is, is show that the asylum is not a passive process where people are just waiting and of course waiting is important as asylum seekers themselves and scholars have pointed out but it also entails continual invisible work that that includes resources, including money, effort and time. So to build this argument. We draw an interview with immigration lawyers and also archival material from asylum appeal cases from from Italy and the UK. So it's with two of these cases that I would like to start this this presentation so these are two asylum appeals that resulted in in opposite decisions. And the first one refers to a Kurdish asylum seeker who applied for asylum in the UK on the basis of his sexuality and his case and I'm reading from the appeal. And I believe that the appellant had done nothing to substantiate his claim except provide a few pictures of him in a gay bar.  And here the judge is quoted. It is tried to say that someone can attend a gay bar and participate in the exchange of explicit photographs and messages without being gay, but instead to support a false basis for claiming asylum. So the first case refers to an asylum seeker who applied in Italy on the basis of his political engagement in Pakistan. And his account was judged to be entirely coherent, extremely rich in detail, and offering numerous elements of external confirmation that fully corroborate his testimony. This is quite a long quote so I'm just going to highlight the main points because what is interesting to us is that this appellant was able to convince the judge of his credibility. There are different types of data both analog and digital so you have his daughter's identity card and birth certificate party membership card and letters photographs tax returns. And he was also asked to identify and successfully identified 11 different locations pertaining to his testimony on on Google Maps. The outcomes of the first and the second share second case show that data can make the difference between a positive decision and a rejection in asylum claims. And in fact, although both you and UK law states that claim and testimony should be sufficient to grant asylum in reality can be quite difficult to obtain refugee status without any supporting documentation or evidence and this is especially true in the UK. There is a lot of literature that that has paid attention to this and to what are defined as the cultures of suspicion fostered around the testimonies of asylum seekers. But there has been less attention to the work that asylum seekers themselves need to do in turn in order to turn their lived experiences into data. So we need to connect to two different sides of asylum governance, the processing of asylum claims and the question of work. And we argue that asylum seekers are increasingly performing the invisible work of data by collecting, assembling and ordering and making legible different forms of digital and analog and analog data to support their cases. In doing this we supplement to bodies of literature related to migration and asylum. So on the one hand that the critical literature on data extraction, which has focused on how migrants and refugees are forced to give data in order to access humanitarian resources and to be able to make a claim for protection. And, well, Claudia Aradão and Martina as well have written extensively on this. And on the other hand you have the literature on asylum and labour, which has paid particular attention to the conditions of unemployment and free and exploitative labour precarity and destitution among asylum seekers. So I don't have time to go into, into much detail in terms of the literature, but for example asylum seekers experiences of unfree and exploitative work have been discussed quite a lot in the literature. As you know in the UK asylum seekers can't work until they have, while they're waiting for a decision even though there's been discussions on changing that due to labour shortages. In countries where they can work, people's insecure status often pushes them towards informal job market, where they can be subject to exploitation and coercive and abusive treatment. So these practices are enabled by what Nicholas the Genova called deportability so the possibility of deportation that creates according to the Genova, a revolving door in the labour market which generates a cheap and easily replaceable source for whom exploitative labour is often the only available option. Then a growing body of work has also pointed to the, to the economies that are emerging around borders migration control, but also asylum and refugee protection. For example, a lot has been written on immigration detention facilities in the UK context Katie Bales and Lucy Maebling have shown that people who are detained in these facilities undertake activities that are actually crucial to the running of the centres like cleaning, cooking, gardening, decorating for as little as one pound for per hour. And in the US, Conlon and Hamster have shown how immigrants who are detained in these facilities are at the same time captive consumers and forced labourers because in addition to participating to more or less voluntary work, they have been stripped of their belongings and they're essentially forced to purchase basic goods and services from the same facilities that exploit them. And the situation is also another recurrent theme in this literature. The situation is as long being a technique for political exclusion, a pillar of the hostile environment but authors have also pointed out that it produces value by making asylum seekers dependent on state agency and non governmental organisations for their survival and I know that Martina and Laura Martin are also doing some some interesting work linked to this but looking at extraction through destitution and different modes of data, labour and rent extraction in the context of refugee humanitarianism. So these are some examples of the literature there's quite a vast body of work, but less attention has been paid to the injunctions to work that are inherent within the very process of seeking asylum. So here we're looking at asylum as worker and we are drawing on the work of anthropologist Tina Shrestha who who carried out ethnographic research with Nepali asylum seekers in the US and argued that the multiple activities that are involved in putting together documents she focused especially in witness preparation are similar to work and are also perceived by by people as work in fact her her respondents talked about the work of making paper. So Shrestha conceptualised asylum seeking as both a field of work and an element of participation in precarious labour. So she says that people's participation in precarious labour when we're not directly related to asylum seeking is however sustained by the demands of the intangible labour and the indefinite time invested into the process. So similarly to Shrestha we also approach asylum seeking as a field of work, but rather than looking at how it embodies and perpetuates ontological and socioeconomic precarity. We zoom into the work itself and more specifically the work of collecting, assembling and ordering different forms of data to put together a credible asylum application. So we talk about the invisible work of data in the in the asylum process. And we talk about work rather than labour here because we consider labour as something that produces value to be allowed to narrow definition for what for what we're describing. And of course the the concept of invisible work has has its roots in feminist writings on the unpaid and unrecognised work performed by women in the private sphere. So this was originally the work of authors like Alan Kaplan Daniels, Ali Rushal Hoshield and Dorothy Smith, which critiqued this commonplace understanding of work as something that that we get paid for. If you get paid for something you're automatically doing work but if you don't it doesn't matter how much skills and time and effort you put into it is often not considered work. So these writings challenged this idea and focused in particular on feminised reproductive labour at the beginning but with time scholars also expanded the term invisible work to encompass a wide range of reproductive and non reproductive unpaid and underpaid activities performed by by women but but not only so examples of non feminised activities are like the labour that the work that patients performing managing health records. So this, it can, there's an emphasis here on on effort, time resources and also emotions. And SDS and media communications scholars have also adopted this notion of work in in relation to data. So for example, Jerome Denis has talked about the invisible work of data to challenge this idea of data something that can seamlessly flow from one place to another. The understanding of invisible work is similar to the one adopted by SDS and media communication scholars. But as I said earlier, we are also encompassing analog traces such as documents and certificates and reports. So we saw all this is data. Now to go back to the to the empirical side of things this is an excerpt from one of the two cases that I introduced at the beginning the case of the Pakistani asylum seeker who attached a lot of data and documentation to his his application and the literature on migration has shown that documents well they've talked about documents as concrete distillations of state powers a Horton said that through documents. The state strives to identify and enumerate its population and separated by legal status. But if we if we look at this other archive of power at the at the archive of asylum appears. Data is not the state that strives it's it's asylum seekers, and they they strive to access collect assemble and order different forms of analog and digital data. So just to clarify both in Italy and in the UK will in the EU, in general asylum seekers are responsible for providing evidence in support of their application and proving that they're eligible for protection. And if they don't have identity documents that the range of information that is required can be quite large. So asylum seekers are are expected to turn as much as possible into into their lives into data and immigration lawyers that have compared this to to the making of a cake because like a cake you know collecting evidence it takes the careful selection and assemblage of material and this in turn requires resources effort and time and sometimes skills. And the amount of evidence attached to to end application the one that we see on the screen to his appeal kind of gives us an idea of this. I interviewed his lawyer who explained that the process of retrieving all of the documents for for his case to several months, and actually the hearing itself took 10 hours, which is exceptional. And, however, she also she also pointed out that the collection of these documents of all this evidence that was was made possible by the level of education of this person and also and especially the financial means of this person so she really emphasized that and was someone who what he was a shop owner he had two shops in his country. He had money to be able to retrieve certain certain data and also he, he had connections with people from the political party he was active in outside of Pakistan. So this interview exit really points to how dimensions also like the country of origin class and education levels affect people's ability to even perform the invisible labor that the invisible work that we're talking about. And how the requirements of the asylum process often penalize the most vulnerable groups. So in the interview, the lawyer also pointed out that there are also significant risks in trying to will retrieve some of this material from the country of destination both for asylum seekers and their families if they're helping, and also especially leaving with this kind of information because paradoxically people find themselves in a situation where in order to prove that they are facing persecution. And to provide some of the same documents that that they had to that would incriminate them in the country of origin that they had to discard like a lot of times we've seen popping up. Well, even in this case in the end case. Before the appeal at the territorial commission he was dismissed because he didn't have an arrest warrant. The process of assembling and collecting evidence involves invisible and at times also also dangerous work, but it is work that asylum seekers are expected to perform. So we've seen in many of these cases that judges have made comments on the lack of evidence or insufficient evidence or the fact that the data provided or the documents provided hadn't been contextualized. So we have a certificate here where does it come from. So there is, you know, this this expectations that you should also translate what what you're providing in a way that is intelligible and understandable to decision makers. So this is the part of documentation and another aspect that we found quite quite interesting is that in addition to documentation this invisible work increasingly extends to to the digital sphere. Additionally, in the UK, digital tools are increasingly used by asylum seekers themselves to collect and circulate documents and data, and also to to evidence some of their activities. So, many cases people rely on on Facebook, or what's up I can Facebook you can show photographs it's easier to store it and not to lose it. Social media evidence and digital evidence when presented by asylum seekers is often deemed insufficient or not credible the assumption that being that it is simply erasable. So the quote on the screen is from another case where the judge said that the appellant can delay any potentially damaging Facebook account before returning to Iran, and can truthfully confirm if interrogated on return that he has no interest in separatist politics. The appellant would present as nothing more than a Kurdish male with no political profile and as such is not a real risk on return. I don't know where the grammar mistakes were in the original. So, digital traces on on social media are seen as as erasable and of course this is incorrect, because while a Facebook account can can be deleted interactions on social media transactional so a deleted account doesn't delete the traces of actions. This tendency to dismiss digital tools when when used by migrants we thought it was quite interesting if contrasted to the perceived reliability of digital tools when used by by decision makers to verify aspects of the asylum application. So in M's case before we saw how he was asked to identify 11 different locations on on Google Maps and this is not uncommon Google Maps is used to carry out real time online searches to corroborate like names locations that are mentioned in asylum seekers testimony. And it is seen as a useful tool by by decision makers and some of the lawyers as we spoke with said that especially in the past and of hearings were similar to tours around the village where people were asked to describe roots and name roads local landmarks and so on. However, I mean, even as this lawyer points out and some of the areas that are of interest for these hearings are not really present in Google Maps or other online tools. So there are some blank areas or the, there's very outdated data information on on there and you know this this can make using something like Google Maps which may seem banal quite quite different difficult and to add to that in the most maps, especially those used in by by judges because obviously they're not going to put the one in Arabic there but they they are written in the Latin script with only some names in Arabic, which also may not be obviously the language of people and there's another point to make is that some people speak very local languages that are not even present on online tools I was speaking to an asylum seeker last week who told me that she was actually struggling because nothing online is in in her native language. Um, so yeah this this answer something that seems easy can become quite quite complicated and well also it's like muscle massimiliano spotty. Especially in relation to two languages have done some some really interesting work on on language and the importance of naming things right. So spotty showed that in asylum hearings, the factual knowledge that that decision makers are often looking for may not be there because of language issues or because of discrepancies in naming practices so the names that that you may find online when you you do some research may not be the same ones that people grew up with. So this, this shows that in addition to to collecting and assembling data asylum seeker also expected to will acquire some some skills and knowledge necessary to, to provide certain information or translate that information so that it is accessible to two courts. So we can also take time and again, the second quote in the screen that the lawyer talked about having worked with clients sometimes up to 15 hours to collect information but also using using Google Maps and ideally you start preparing for an advance. So this is the last section of the paper so I'm going to go through it quite quickly but because I'm conscious about timing because it's very much a work in progress. I also started thinking about you know the temporalities of invisible work and and the strikingly long periods of time that elapsed from like between the lodging of the application and the decision. There was a recent report by the refugee council, which showed that at the end of March 2021 there were 66,185 people waiting for an initial decision, three quarters of which have been waiting for over six months. And the backlog of cases in the UK this has increased almost tenfold since 2010. And this is of course just the initial state stage and then you have the appeals and asylum seekers have reported waiting times as long as eight but also up to 15 years and this is reflected in some of the cases that we looked at we started really tracing how much time it took and sometimes it is quite striking. So the refugee council report describes this time as a cruel wait and asylum seekers themselves have talked about how painful this waiting is. And of course there have been scholars who have described this process of waiting as an existential limbo or liminal space marked by insecurity and immobility. And these are all very important contributions but what we also think is important is to specify that people are not just passively waiting for a decision to be make to be made. While they're waiting they gather evidence, they have to go to doctors appointments to document certain aspects of their narrative, they have their applications rejected, they gather new evidence, we call witnesses and so on. So the asylum process involves sustained invisible work and another interesting fact about temporality actually have probably to develop this is that they have to collect data about their past but also to continue documenting themselves in a way with like that they have to place activities like political political activities outside their country of origin so pertaining to the present, or in Italy for example in order to get humanitarian or now special protection, you should show some level of of integration and therefore like you need to prove activities such as volunteering or that you're working and so on. Yeah, it's, we thought this this was also quite an interesting aspect. I'm running out of time so just to wrap up very very quickly. So our main point is that asylum seeking entails work and this is extensive and and continual invisible work and we think that that attending to these forms of invisible work is is crucial to understanding all the challenges of asylum seeking beyond just you know the the the migratory journey also in the in the country of destination. And it's also important to to counter some problematic depictions of asylum seekers as passive subjects who are just waiting for for a decision to be made and also the basis discourses to get attached to that. Of course waiting is an important aspect, but there's there's more than than that and you know when when these activities are performed by by lawyers or by judges they're seen as as work. So we we think it's important to kind of change this this understandable challenge, the separation of where work what work is and and who performs it. And finally the concept conceptualization of invisible work raises important what political questions about about the equipment and resources. Others have or actually don't have at the at their disposal to undertake this work. And this has political implications for for how we understand the resources responsibilities and also the resistance to the making of precarious subjects. And this is it. Thank you very much. Hopefully I'm not too out of time. Okay. So thank you. Thank you so much. Look at him for the presentation and I also had the pleasure to read the draft of the paper in advance. And so and for me is a super interesting in contribution to a literature on on asylum precisely for this angle on work work and time that as you're saying the paper remain under theorized in migration literature at least mean this this combination of like analysis on time and labor. And actually, while you were speaking, I mean I have, I have three points but whatever speaking what came to my mind is that in most of migration literature that is a lot of like, many analysis about migrants and asylum seekers being turned into exploitable labor force. So the fact that they are put to work, but there is much less about how this process that you describe steel their time as potential workers so that basically delay their entrance in the, in the potential like labor market in Europe and this is something that from a different perspective, family scholar just beer poor. I mean, develop in a quite nice way speaking about engaging with the concept of slow that and saying okay very much a lot of attention has been paid to the concept of that but what about the slow they mentioned and what happens while people are delayed. And as you described, they are not just waiting. They are not just in a limbo as many scholars describe but they are forced to do a lot of activities that are necessary for them to to to obtain me to to get their main goal. So I have three points. And of course, feel free not to address all of them. The first point that I would like to raise is about your multiple so throughout the paper and also the presentation you speak about work and also work and labor even if now you have clarified it. You prefer the use of like the term work. You're considering different aspect. So, for instance, in the paper you also refer to cognitive labor, and then there is this expression the work of data that you illustrating the presentation, and then there is the work of bringing also these logical evidence. So I was wondering, well, if you're what are you meant from a theoretical methodological point of view, what are you trying to do in the paper by bringing together this concept of work that remain also mean that usually are analyzed in a in a separate or distinct way in the literature. So for instance, what do we gain from labeling or these different activities of cognitive labor and the work of data. I understand that there is this like building on anthropology literature on what is labor in terms of activities but there are multiple aspects of labor that he described so I was curious if you're, I mean, if maybe you're planning to develop also a theoretical section about what are you doing by bringing together these heterogeneous aspect of labor. And, and the second point is about the historical dimension temporal dimension. So I was wondering you point to the fact that more and more now there is a need for asylum seekers to prove evidence through technology and using like their social media and so on. So there is definitely this shift so additional digital data alongside analogical evidence and I was wondering if you mean where do you situate right is increase in the paper you mentioned is increasingly me where you could find in this archive that there has been this escalation but also you you situate in part your paper in the literature about the culture of suspicion of asylum seeker and and saying well there is this but there is also this other aspect which is not only about the narrative but also about bringing the evidence. And so I was wondering if in your view there has been so if you as if you say this in like as part of a historical transformation over the last decades or so, or if you just want to highlight this dimension that in your opinion has been under theorize of like the materiality of like data also analogical data with respect to the dimension of the narrative. And, and for instance, I'm thinking about Roberto Beneduccio instead focus more on the other aspect of like narrative, but also points to the fact that sometimes even if they bring more material evidence this is not unfortunately enough so that every the evidence of data and logical data is not, is not enough for countering the mistrust towards the asylum seeker. And, and the third point is about is a question about because you engage more with like STS literature on work and then anthropology literature. And so I was wondering, because for me that the most immediate automatic like a direction for discussing this is also feminist literature on unpaid labor, and I was wondering what does the category of work does in your analysis from a political point of view so while for feminist literature on unpaid labor the point is to highlight also the most of invisible exploitation that are at stake, and in some cases also to to mean to situate these in claims for remuneration, or even if this is not the only, I mean this is just one of the steps. And I was wondering, even if you don't conflate me, you distinguishes and for us work is not only related is not necessarily related to value production and exploitation but I was wondering what, what is, I mean, let's say, the political stake of visibilizing labor. Should I address these points first or I think for efficiency, let's have Sasuke go and then you can just you know, it's a great yes, such as low note to take it but yes, but you also choose what you want to respond to you to right I don't know if we have time to respond to all of them but yeah certainly some really great feedback so yeah Sasuke on to you. Well, thanks. It's going to go very neatly from what Martina has just said. Thank you for the paper and the great presentation and when Amanda asked me to join as a discuss and I jumped at the opportunity because I'm really intrigued by the idea of bringing the concept of work and or labor to the processes of and practices of asylum. And for me this combines two things that I'm also interested in and one is a more long term interest in feminist global political economy, and how it contributes to understanding different security regimes and practices I'm also thinking here about Amanda's work in on security as labor, and specifically her work on the invisible labor that goes into enabling migration for security work which is a slightly different angle but I think speaks to many of those themes, and so I'm just going to use these two minutes to probably highlight a few of the contributions that such an approach feminist global political economy can make to the study on the interrelations between migration and invisible labor, and then particular probably to carve out a little bit more the broader societal structures and relations of power, in which your specific empirical phenomenon is embedded and then link this to to another interest of mine in you borders and how gender and race and form our findings of deserving this and riskiness and so on and so forth. So I'm thinking, you know feminist global political economy makes two theoretical maneuvers that are interesting and one is, is that you already mentioned this that they propose a much broader definition of work that includes reproductive emotional and so on. But they always ask, as well, you know how is this sort of labor invisibilized in order to sustain other kinds of labor and the broader structures of capitalism market driven driven logics and the so called productive labor. So this is why I think you might maybe, maybe a neat distinction between labor and work does not work in this context. And then feminists, you know, ask us to, to unpack you know how do the notions of gender and race inform what counts as labor, and what doesn't, and which kind of labor is then as a consequence, invisibilized and you're touching upon that in the paper as well. And I was particularly intrigued when you spoke about, you know, how the work of lawyers, NGO workers, judges, you authorities is seen as work, but then others not. So this made me think you know what kinds of understandings of masculinity femininity and also whiteness going to these judgments, and isn't the whole procedure that you're describing sort of an exercise in how to approximate an imagination of a white middle class handling of one's own data, and everyone who cannot live up to these standards is then somehow feminized and racialized. And that's why it's becoming so easy to invisibilize this kind of work. And I think from approaching it from this broader angle can help us get out of this individualized understanding of what is going on there and embed more broadly in the political economy of migration you spoke about this you know the migration industries and so on but also the the regular labor markets that asylum seekers then can enter or also the informal labor markets that they do enter. So I think this might help you know talk about the relationship between these precarious migrants on labor markets and the invisible labor that goes into the asylum claim itself. You can draw on these different literatures but also ask how do these different phenomena interact with each other. Also, I mean there's lots of stuff in nowadays about bordering as labor and the laborious process and what kinds of activities are being seen and which not. So I think just by exploring by what kind of work is being seen, you can say a lot about what is invisibilized and why. We can connect more broadly to these issues of how our borders, governed in the modern world. So to answer also sort of the question Martina had you know what does the notion of work, what additional layers does this reveal about the whole process what are we seeing when we're addressing this is work and not waiting or something else. And also what makes the work for asylum different from the work that goes into other kinds of migration. For example visa applications for labor migration extremely laborious and also depends on a community depends on family members so that there's broader networks that are also gendered that that are probably interested is interesting here. I have more but I'm just going to leave it at that and see if there's, if you want to respond and if there's more from the audience. Thank you anyways it was really inspiring. So first of all, thank you so much for all this great feedback and these, and these comments that they're really, they're really useful and and some of them also reflect conversations that that Claudia and I have have been having and for a lot of this distinction between labor and work I mean it started I'm going to address them kind of like group some together some of the points of Martin and some of the points of Saskia and then I will probably forget something but feel free to to remind me. So we started and in fact the initial title was about labor but then we we judge that kind of this idea of labor as as value production didn't as the production of value did a quite capture what what we wanted to say so we took a more. This is like an everyday understanding of of work and what what is perceived as as work, but we're also afraid we're also aware that then there is the first of all the risk of, you know, stretching that the concept too much so what doesn't counter work and this is why we borrow from feminist scholars that emphasised the role of of effort, time and resources, and actually something that well the literature also emphasise emotions and that's something perhaps that that we should explore a little bit more because a lot goes into into, you know, assembling and balancing all of these traces, these traces together. So, we, we very much kind of followed Dorothy Smith advocating for a more generous notion of work, but something that, you know, still maintains that traditional understanding of something that requires resources and time but also that is kind of a man meshed in relations and organisations and also forms of forms of power, and that it shapes the way that people relate to to others in invisible in invisible ways, and I think, you know, you are right in saying, well that we talk about the different different firms of forms of work here and in terms of what we gain from from labelling it, it's probably something that that that we should that we should reflect on and I also agree that there isn't a clear distinction perhaps between that work and labour as as Aska said because keeping this people outside of work again as as Martina highlighted I mean it delays the the entering into this, you know, in into into work, but at the same time it contributes to that precarity, right and maybe pushing people towards even more more informal and risky jobs so definitely a good point that that we should we should elaborate on and I think this in terms of what the political what the political implications of this are. I think it links very well to what to what Sasuke said so Martina's question and Sasuke's question kind of linked in a way that it's important to draw attention to how the construction of what counts as work. It depends on, well, legal structures but also in the intersection of factors like race, gender, and, and, and other dimensions that they mentioned so whose whose work doesn't doesn't go recognized so all of these factors shape how we defined work and also whose work is is invisibilized right so I think that drawing attention to that can then draw draw attention to hold those, those wider issues that that that we've been, we've been talking about that Sasuke has has been highlighting. And I think it is also important to think about resources right and who has the resources the fact that lawyers and judges when they do this work it is, it is work, but asylum seekers are sometimes asked to do very similar things, but with little to resources, and even you know things like going to hearings in a couple of the, of the appeal cases that we've read, I mean people weren't able or like what they, they weren't able to show up because they didn't have the money to pay for the fare so it's this, you know, it's a cycle that reinforces itself and thinking about work and the resources that are needed for work is is also an important, an important political implications of this, and also again linking to to another point of what Sasuke says so kind of the link with with with security. In a way, thinking about the work like the reproduction I guess so for of bordering systems and who does the work that that reproduces it also you know, beyond the just the travel and the border but yes so I think this is another point that that that we that we highlight and that is important. But I'm trying to tell you that I'm very slow at writing notes. So now it's almost impossible to understand, but the, the historical dimension. So the shift. I have to say that kind of the, the, the increase of, of digital data is mostly like used by asylum seekers themselves in in more recent years so in more recent appeals to to collect and and store the, the documents or photographs of digital data. And it's when it's mostly in the UK so I haven't found found quite as much in the Italian archive but it's also because it's very it's much more difficult to navigate the Italian archive like the British one is the UK. One is quite neat and it's up there on the internet but as Martina probably knows in Italy, things are a little bit more difficult but speaking with with immigration lawyers as well they said that they haven't found quite the same news. But what they did point out though is kind of this transition to the digital digital in court so so some asylum seekers will the lawyers I spoke they say that they would like to see more digital photographs or more digital videos, for example, used in the cases because they would be very useful, but there's also an issue with the system and what you can file digitally so some of the systems used by courts don't recognize the certain types of files and therefore they can show them in court. But they can't you know keep them in the records, and I think that's there's also quite quite an interesting aspect so these digital traces, first of all, in some cases they're dismissed, they're seen as something that can be deleted in the case of Facebook posts. And also, when shown in courts when you're showing quotes things like videos or photos and sometimes it doesn't then stay in the file is the one off. So in terms of the culture of suspicion. You are absolutely right. A lot has been written about about the narrative, and, well, Bomer and Schumann wrote wrote a recently a very, very interesting book where they also talked about the increasing importance of documents and documentation and improves but you're right because. There's a lot of documents but if there is an inconsistency in the narrative, then that still takes precedence. It doesn't matter how much you provide. So I think that that again shows how the system is geared against against asylum seekers it all fits with the culture of suspicion but also the hostile environment and the wanting to, to, to keep, to keep people, how right making it more and more difficult for people to be granted granted asylum and again another dimension that that we should we should emphasize perhaps the focus on the honor on data kind of misses out all this other dimension of credibility the credibility of the narrative. Yeah, thank you very much. I haven't probably missed something. Sorry. Well there's lots to engage further in so thank you both Martin and Saskia for those really important discussion points. I just have someone in the chat box. Iliara Ferrari Ferrari. I'm sorry this is my anglophone tongue. Anyway, she said thank you la Cretza for an interesting presentation. I work with survivors of modern slavery and human trafficking in London. Many of our service users are also asylum seekers I found it really interesting how you talked about the fact that asylum seekers might be forced to work while they wait for a decision on their claims, often in illegal or irregular ways. When I think of my clients. I think the issue poses a huge risk risk as claimants might end up being re trafficked or re exploited again. While in reality asylum seekers should be safe once they reach the so called safe country in fact they're they rarely are being destitute with no right to work poses in fact a big threat where exploitation and modern slavery become possibilities. It's not realistic to expect asylum seekers to wait years sometimes two to three for a decision and just live on subsistence paid to them by governments and charities. So I guess that's more of a statement validation statement than anything an important one though. Yeah. Yeah, thank you thank you very much I think that that is very important you know also this this notion of safety and how that's almost never an element. Not when it comes to asylum seekers in the UK but also outside and the whole asylum process itself can be quite retraumatizing. And as you said, in the inability to work can push people towards towards these the situations and the amount of money that they get from the government is around 36 or 40 pounds per week is is not enough and also people who are put in certain accommodations I mean they're not always. Even if you get a meal like a lot of people were talking about how you know that they don't get fruit or other things that that they may some basic needs and you know it's there's a true risk. And the NGO is actually doing some some great advocacy work about. So if you want to follow some of the other organizations I'd be happy to give you some some links if you want to get in touch. That's great I think I have a I'm going to abuse my position of chair I have a question to what we have a few minutes left. I, I personally in my work side on the concept of labor I use labor overwork. And I mean there's a Kathy weeks wrote a great book on the politics of work and why she used work over labor to so I guess you know this is this is everyone's own decision but I just wonder I haven't read your paper but I wonder for the audience to who hasn't read it. What would you say is the key contribution you want to make in this paper like what do you want people to take away what's the key argument that is that's probably not a fair question. But in working through this paper I guess what, maybe not the key contribution what I guess when you're working through this paper what are the things that are most striking or most important for you that you want to disseminate to larger audience. I think some of the main points that that we discussed so kind of challenging a certain image of the of the passive passive asylum seeker is is quite important. And also thinking about, again as I said earlier how we understand work changes depending on who performs work right and how those, those categories like like race class gender player role in that in that definition and I think that the point that that saskia may made on how you know this masculine masculinity, whiteness, and, and all of these factors kind of shape that that commonplace understanding of work which leads to dismiss a series of other, other actions that they do have that do have implications and they do take effort and time and have also implications on on people's lives. Right and I think an important point of this actually this came from from some of the interviews because we were, we're looking at the invisible work and that's, you know, our main, our main point but also thinking about who gets to perform to even perform this this work, what the expectations are there and what does this mean for a fair asylum process.


Oh, those salty tears. Penguin Random House staff melts down after they're learning that they're publishing Jordan Peterson's new book. The staff of Penguin Random House Canada had a meltdown at an emotional town hall over the company's decision to publish Jordan Peterson's latest book. On Monday, the publisher said they would publish Peterson's new book beyond order 12. Well, you got 12 rules and I got 12 more rules. I got 24 rules. I wish him all the best.  Anyways, look at this.  And the fact that he's an icon of white supremacy, regardless of the content of his book, I'm not proud to work for a company to publish them. These salty little soy people.  This is this is this is the coddling of the American mind as Jonathan Hyde states. It is a mind virus of the world culture, infecting post-secondary education, affecting the zeitgeist of our generation. And if people can't like the funny thing with Penguin Publishing House and not Penguin themselves, but the world people in Penguin. So you're hating on Jordan Peterson's book, but mind Conf is published there. And the fact that they're against freedom of speech, well, guess what? If you really stand by your values of free of do not publishes book, well, we're not going to publish what you say, we're going to actually stop you from thinking how you think. This is the thing. The very notion of what they represent is the same values that will stop them in the future of expressing how they feel.  A second employee said, people were crying in the meeting about how Jordan Peterson has affected their lives. The company since June has been doing all these anti-racist ally, allyship things, and then publishing Peterson book completely goes against this. And another employee said, Peterson's the one who's responsible for radicalizing and causing the surge of the alt-right group. Give me a break. Who are these people? My God, there should be like a simple like criteria of hiring people just kind of weed out. It's like, have you had a real job every life?   Jesus, quite this is the best. Look at this. Here we go. Several employees cried at the meeting discussing how Peterson views have negatively impact their lives. The saltiness. But you know who's actually wins here the most is Penguin. The Penguin owners, they're laughing to the bank because you can't buy this PR. This is amazing free PR for Penguin. And Penguin's going to publish it.  And the next publisher is going to jump on it to get this but I think they're smart enough to realize that this PR is amazing.  But the other thing is just, it really goes to show you how infected the zeitgeist of our time is when it comes to people being offended. When people are like, they can't even read a book without being offended. Think about that for a second. They can't control their own emotions. You know, one of my favorite books of all time is Victor Frankl's Man search for meaning and he went through the Holocaust. He was at Auschwitz and one of the things he states and it's very, very important. In fact, it's one of my favorite books of all time. I always tell people, I highly, highly recommend people to read it.  And remember, when he was in the concentration camp, they took everything, took his clothes, took his dignity, took his literally his family away, took in the only thing they couldn't control is his response to the stimulus in his environment. That small buffer, he calls it, he was able to control that buffer. He did not let the Nazis take that away. His ability to respond to a situation. But yet you have these little kids today and I'll call them kids from a mental standpoint. Yes, they're physical adults and young talks about this. And this is called the man child syndrome or the, we call it a modern day Peter Pan syndrome, where we have adults, we have adults with children's psychology, where we had, where we had parents and we had the society bubble them for their entire existence and it's okay. You can do whatever you want. If you want to identify as a velociraptor, you can identify as that and no one's going to hurt your feelings and everything's going to be okay. And any words that kind of trigger you tell us because we're going to take care of you.  Think about that. You work for a company and these guys don't get, they're gonna get fired.  Like these, I don't want to group people, but these individual human beings have a lot of trauma. They have a lot of issues. And they, and how I view is they go after people because of jealousy. They go after people because they're not comfortable in their own skin.  People getting salty over Jordan's book.  It is like the most basic of basic self-help books, literally. Clean your room, take responsibility, map out your future, you know, like, what? What? Like, you know, I like Jordan's message because it's just simple. You know, there's a lot of things I agree with him. There's a lot of things I don't agree with him. But his book at the end of the day is just a simplified self-help book, 12 rules. And people find this offensive. What goes to show you, man, they don't read the book, they don't read the, they don't read the actual material itself. They're just triggered by this individual.  Ah, the woke culture eating themselves. This is the old school or Boris, the snake eating sale, and eventually they will eat themselves because they're going to divide to so many different in groups and know so many different factions that they're going to start bickering and fighting over each other. And eventually, poof, goodbye. See you later.   Wham, wham.


Thank you. You look like Christmas morning. Gignisir? Uko zarama? Mambo. Kwa ni una trust what is a kuku? Mi ukulaku kuku mumjana? Ingo kwa wana jome ni msa ukumazi? Ingo kwa? Rua kura rua? Nani ukule, muna pianaga triplets. Just asking for a friend. Kwa ni usu na skia sijui twins, sijui six of them. Kuku tui yon dumu na kula tu kenyejin dumu na fanya evo. Kwa wana, isapapapu we are faithful. Faithful? When you release triplets, mazi pila kubisha. I hope kama mambo zashule hua mini yo science. He is just playing games with our feelings. Na ukua puna pila yi sabi.  So na tufta huyu ya, make us those. I love wana kukini triplets, dumu. That has even confused my systems a bit. Pede Karibunisana, welcome to class. If you've just joined us, it's okay. You're never too late for this class. Mi na ito a that. No, hansam na ito a king. Kwa wana ito? Mi na ito BHB Godwin, the evangelist artist manager. Zani PR Times, record label manager. PR and marketing company owner. Na ito a God as worldwide. Kwa miski ya waki taja. Nimi miski ya waki. Ya. Kuna umutuame, sumasa uti ya kwa sujuni. Nika ili, ili yongezwa skarifla nimi. Ulianza kuhimba gospel. Ha? I usually do gospel. Nimi koka esu ni buwana. Ya, leo as you. Jai fanya sekila, daddy. Boda, ujai fanya sekila. Niki ru di nyuma, nyuma, nyuma kabsa kwa archive because they tell me the internet does not forget. Ni fili, I manage secular artists. Ya, but... That's not a conflict of interest.  But because we are in this world, nubu amitupatia, amitwakapa because we need to serve. We have a purpose. And my purpose is to help some other guys. Boda, they are secular or gospel as long as na fanya kaziangu na maishawe na inoka. Na jwa muwana ni ambiya heko because I preach to them. They wanna change. Nia una muwana if they don't want launching my lifestyle on an opportunity in my course. Ya. I like that. Is it possible for a minister to be in politics? Ya, even in the Bible there are politics. No, as in vene tu ne, she say, wacha na izo en zeta fathali. Ie nzea mnenda parliament kama wana ume wakubu ame na piganapuna viti. We are calling the places of position in vene, many born again, people in vene, majuwa polagish, but we are calling to those places. I know someone else who calls alituita wajinga, na itabidi tu me, either tu me tika, ama tuwa ni kitu. Tu tika na utulitika. Tulitika? Na sana. Tulisema ni sawa. Niyukuele. Niyukuele. Ya, niyukuele sababu, we need to step up, to see ma me what is right. Tu na bebo ufaala, na tu na flow na ufaala, wacha ujinga mazea, tu situ ya jinga tenda. Take your place. Ata uki pigas, uki enakongia pointeo, dekozuna ifkiri ya kama, wone kama ni. Wona jiwe kwa. Wola ni kwa. Mufo hi ui tura. Ama gisha hi tura. Kwa ni ya ui jiwe kwa? Jinga kama na meksa. Wone ya wona jiitam jinga. Niyukuele. Niyukuele, wona jiwe baide tu me, tu koina sosayatima, niku rota en sana. So, jama ni kwa tu right. At least na me tu amisha wa sayo ma jiwa. We need to wake up to what is right. Lakin nisi saye ni kama tu syarudi kwa story zetu. Za kawa. Kuna wasa, there's a percentage in a change. His message was good. Kuna maa lili wana e mumsho. Ya na zina ndale, wone kuna wangi ni wame foteisha. Revival doesn't just happen. It's a process. Ni kitu, ita come to the next generation, but at least the summer will be garnet. Atle, I'd like to see it. Sawa wacha wa toto akule, but I'd like to just see it. Unfortunately, ya ni mungo ni bless my life ya fiyo yote una ni mbe unfortunate. Ya ok, we will see. Mi, mi first of all, nisi kise, mi mi niki zeka kwa za. The first thing, nyiweli kitantu iwi white rasta immediately. Sii dakatika. Nyi nyi nyi nyi nyi, ya kwa mika tika. Koni ni ko 65 years. Nyi nyi nyi nyi nyi nyi nyi nyi. Ujone zi pictures wa atu akuna dredi. Una zaga kwa ya ka? No, don't say. Nyi nyi nyi nyi tiku pati na dredi. Ok, so three years before yanzi kutano it. Because nda mi switchana What? No. What kind of spirit is this? Tu mumbe? What does he say? Ozo una koka brate. Ah, wei. Acha kumpeh pressure. Acha kumpeh pressure. Nyi ambi e, kwa ni waschana? Uwezi e kwa waschana kwa video? Ya gospel? My other song season na waschana. Bona apa akuna. Wada weza? On that note, director mi nyi ambi. Niki eda pumalizi ya nyi ita kwaeba did the video. People have been asking, making these guys dope. Mama kwa ni koduba e na ni kokeya niya. Nyeri kwanza. Say oh sorry. Sorry. Ok. But tell me, bona wuna waschana kwa video? Point nini ni akuna ni ambi. Walk me through the concept. The song is called Talk to You. I had gone to seek the face of the Lord. Kiyanda, amu ni wewepe kya apu. Ya una takapu zumbumzi uski e. Waschana, wei, what did you say? Director kwa apiku japa ni ambi e monewe. Ni wewe?  Ni wewepe kwa wuna wuna. I don't like it. So just walk in here with Swag Sata for that Swag. Swag. Swag. Swag? Ya. Hi. Not strong enough. Hey, no component leo. Say hi to DJ. Hi. Fresh as her, Karim.  Ya. Tell us about the concept and why there are no girls in there? As you can see, there's a desert and he's talking to this spiritual father. So it's meant for him only. The message is straight on from him to the Lord, to his spiritual father. He did that in the wilderness. Ya. That's the concept of the video. So ni kama menda kupanam lima na netwaki ifi kia raga? I think unaskia what one in the Jerusalem. Jerusalem or in the mountains or somewhere, somewhere ya. It's just quiet just to speak to the Lord. Ya. That's the concept of the video. Tell us your social media handles as we wrap this up. Ya. I'm Link. Link JR. Ya. I work with a film brand or film lab on Facebook, Instagram and Twitter. It's all Link JR. Ya. Alright, you don't smile Link JR? Ya. There we go. My friend. Ya ni this. See this? No, no, no. Melanin veni me shika. Umetupia ni ni social media. Ya. Shou, shou. I'm at BHB Godwin Bia Baba. H Ruma Bia Baba Tena. Godwin Mungushina ya ni. BHB Godwin across all social media platforms, YouTube, BHB Godwin official. Ige apu maze, like, goma, comment, share. Kishi. Manito, African ego. African ego. Okay. Yeah. African ego. Okay. Iki enda sanat delongi. Delongi. Ya. Continue sorry. Ya ni kwa na sayam. Ki ni zikingzele. Is my good friend but if you don't like the music and request, ita kuwa siyanfair kini cheza-cheza. So request au nai nihyam ziki ni pawa maveitino. See here? B.H.B. Golden Official. Lafoo, as I finish, as you can see, is one of the dopest directors in the universe, you at Kenya. I don't have good notes. Kabla, he says, he has an offer. If you have a dog audio, na wukona kakitu, kakitu tuka dogo. Muangali e pale, he can give his number or whatever, lakini link Junior Facebook, Ngia, Dia, Mapo, atap Fanyia video. Fanyia video. Although I do encourage kwangusha CV, kwa sho, is if it was innate ability some and what are here personally on his, on both of their media pages. Thank you for coming. So ata minkani kwa msanini kujoutan Fanyia le kitu. We'll talk after this. You sound like an interesting person. King say, to Fanyia. Sijapia na salam. Papa angu wa na watch. Sorry, sorry. Music na tiza kwa background. I mean him say western maze. My family is watching the windows. Maze na skiamada na watch. Ma bro na ma sibling.


Hello and welcome to the session that is because the following problem today give examples of two function f such that from n to z and g from z to z such that g of f is injective but g is not injective. Now let us write the solution. Let us consider x is equal to x and g of x is equal to mod of x. Now let us take g of x. g of x is equal to mod of x which is equal to x if x is greater than equal to 0 and minus x if x is greater than 0. Therefore, g of x is not 1 1 since g of 1 is equal to g of minus 1 is equal to 1 but 1 is not equal to minus 1. Now let us find g of f of x which is equal to g of f of x which is equal to g of x because f of x is equal to x and g of x is equal to mod of x. Hence g of f of x is equal to mod of x. Now domain of g of f is n that is set of natural numbers which is given to us for every natural number a mod of a is equal to a that is g of f has a unique image. Therefore, g of f is 1 1 and hence g of f is injective. Hence g of f is injective and since g of x is not 1 1 therefore, g is not injective. Thank you for the problem. Bye and have a nice day.


How we arrange and organize our rooms can say a lot about us. For many of us, our bedrooms are the most personal and intimate spaces in our home. Colors and smells can give away your sensory interests and small decorations can hint at your taste and personal style. For example, a messy room can mean that you're disorganized while a very neat and clean room can suggest that you're uptight. In Malcolm Gladwell's acclaimed book, Blink, he references Samuel Gosling, a personality and social psychologist, who studies how people's behavior, appearance, and physical environment affects how they're perceived. Gosling names three variables in a bedroom that gives out clues to a person's personality. Identity claims, behavioral residue, and thoughts and feelings regulators. An identity claim is a deliberate expression about how you want to be perceived by others. For example, putting your favorite box on a shelf serves as an identity claim because the people who enter your room can instantly get a good perspective of the things you're interested in. Behavioral residue, on the contrary, is the unintentional results of your behavior. If you leave your shoes scattered around the floor, it's probably because you're lazy. You didn't intentionally leave them there to give the impression that you're unorganized. Thoughts and feelings regulators are objects that affect the way you feel in your room. Candles that you put on top of your desk to give your room a calm feeling is an example of a thought and feelings regulator. So if a stranger enters your room and takes a look around, they'll be able to gather certain aspects about your personality just by observation. Gosling proved this in an experiment involving 80 college students using a highly respected questionnaire called the Big Five Inventory which measures people across five dimensions. One, extraversion. Are you sociable and fun-loving or retiring and reserved? Two, agreeableness. Are you trusting and helpful or suspicious and uncooperative? Three, conscientiousness. Are you organized and self-difciplined or disorganized and weak-willed? Four, emotional stability. Are you worried and insecure or calm and secure? Five, openness to new experiences. Are you imaginative and independent or down to earth and conforming? He first had close friends of those 80 college students fill out the questionnaire. Then, he had another group of total strangers who had never met the 80 college students go into their dorm rooms and, along with the clipboard and 15 minutes to look around, told them to fill out a very similar questionnaire. The close friends of the college students calculated their friends' extraversion and agreeableness way more accurately than the strangers, which makes sense because you have to personally know somebody in order to make a better judgment of his or her personality. But, surprisingly, the strangers did a far better job than the students' friends at predicting conscientiousness, emotional stability, and openness to new experiences. This demonstrates that it is possible for people who have only known you for a short time to learn a lot about you, just and also by looking around your bedroom. Little details like having a bottle of sleeping pills on your desk, which suggests that you have trouble with falling asleep, or leaving clothes and unfinished food all around your floor, which hints that you don't have time to stay organized, can say a lot about your passions, desires, work, and psychological state of mind. Now look around your room and try to take note of any objects that can potentially reveal parts of who you are. Which objects do you think most strongly portray your personality? Comment your answers down below. If you enjoyed this video, be sure to follow our Tumblr, Twitter, and Facebook for more content, and don't forget to subscribe. Thanks for watching and have a wonderful day!


You know that feeling of satisfaction when you finish soldering both rows of header pins?  Definitely. But we can fix it. Please note the following technique is not perfect and does pose risks, primarily the risk of permanently damaging your board. But it usually works. Use sharp diagonal cutters to divide the black stabilizers into strips. Then use needle nose pliers to slide them off, leaving only bare pins. For each of those remaining pins, use needle nose pliers to get a good grip on the longer end. Then heat the top side pad with your iron, and when the solder melts, smoothly remove the pin. It's quite satisfying, really. Use copper wick to clean up any remaining solder on the board. And… look at that. It's like nothing even happened.


What is going on guys welcome back to the channel and I do appreciate you being here today I am back with another destiny 2 video and today guys. I bring you another community highlights and damn somebody's clips are absolutely insane Know if you guys do enjoy the video and you want to see all your support You can like a button and if you have any amazing clip you'd like to share with the world send it into the email I just linked at the top of the video description But guys, thanks as always for stopping by I hope you enjoyed the video and hopefully I will see you on that next One up to taken on the other side. Hope you're proud. I am portal's ready. They'll say hello Take out those guys the executioners Through your actions, we've forged an age-old bond between my kind and yours That's a power play you took them now hold them together Another one off the list. You have terrifying potential Double exo for a lemon's I'm a kishter Digger, I'm not sure Twice It's mine actually, but you know One on one front of assaults without break. That's illegal What?  You have them where you want them Finish this is out of second chances by a team that fights together one