So next I'd like to introduce Jose Cisneros, Fred Blackwell and Alicia Jean-Baptiste for new systems for shared prosperity. Jose Cisneros is the elected treasurer for the city and county of San Francisco. As treasurer, he serves as the city's banker and chief investment officer, managing all tax and revenue collection for San Francisco. Fred Blackwell is the CEO of the San Francisco Foundation. Prior to joining the foundation, he served as interim city administrator for the city of Oakland, executive director for the San Francisco redevelopment agency, and director of the mayoral office of community development in San Francisco. Alicia Jean-Baptiste is the president and CEO of SPUR, a seasoned leader in public policy professional. Alicia has over 20 years of experience reimagining systems to create better outcomes for people. So welcome our panel for new systems for shared prosperity. Hi everybody, I'm Alicia Jean-Baptiste. It's such a pleasure to be with you all today. I'm going to do just a minute of table setting before we jump into our conversation, just to talk about why we are talking about economic inequality. And this is, of course, an issue that presents across the United States, but it is particularly acute here in the Bay Area. In the city of San Francisco, we have one of the most significant income divides of any place in the country. The top 5% of earners in San Francisco make more than $574,000 a year, while the bottom 20% are clocking in at under $53,000. San Francisco Chronicle just recently released a poll that revealed that fully 76% of people who live in San Francisco identify income inequality and economic inequality as an incredibly challenging issue that needs to be addressed. And for many of us, certainly for myself growing up in the 70s and 80s, we are coming into this conversation having been taught a series of ideas. For example, that supply side economics is going to work for us, that economic divides are okay because when you have people who have wealth, they will eventually create jobs and money will flow to the rest of us. In addition, we've been taught that if we just pull ourselves up by our bootstraps and work really hard, we too can be one of those wealthy people. What those ideas have largely ignored has been the role of structural racism in creating the dynamics that we experienced today and we see these dynamics in the numbers. We have in California, black and Latinx families representing 43% of the state's population but 58% of our lowest income households. And here in the Bay Area, white earners make a median income of 92,000 annually while Latinx workers are paid 44,000, black workers 54,000. So it's no surprise that black and Latinx communities are some of the most likely to be struggling in order to be able to afford to live here. So aside from sort of the basic injustice of that dynamic, economic inequality comes with a lot of risk. We know that societies that experience great levels of economic inequality also have worse health outcomes, lower educational attainment, slower economic growth, higher crime rates, and more concentrated political power which in turn can lead to the political insecurity and social distrust that so many of us are experiencing in this nation today. So there are a lot of reasons for this, a lot of causes of economic inequality which also means that there is more than one solution. And we're going to spend a little bit of time today talking about some of those and where we can find hope in this whole picture. And I'm so excited to be joined by Jose Cisneros and Fred Blackwell who are daily doing this important work. And I think we're just going to dive in and start with a question for you Fred. One of our significant challenges in the Bay Area and across California as a whole is housing and the affordability of housing. And of course, everybody, most of us pay to have a roof over our heads but only those of us who can afford to own a home actually also get to have that as an asset. Can you talk a little bit about the work that you're doing at the foundation on this topic and also maybe why the dynamics on housing are so cute here in the Bay Area? Yeah, thank you and good to be here with everyone. A few things come to mind, Alicia. I mean, when folks think about the intersection of kind of housing with economic opportunity and wealth, generally people just go straight to home ownership. And for good reason. I mean, for this country that's been the way that a lot of folks have been able to grow a nest egg, support things that needed, assets in order to advance their families, but actually housing has an even deeper relationship to economic opportunity. And especially here in a place where the economic situation that you described in terms of the kind of barbell income strata as well as the just the high cost of housing really dramatically impact people's economic status and ability to be economically mobile and just a few examples of that.  When a family is unstable, kids are unable to have a stable environment when it comes to school and the kinds of amenities and things that they draw on to get an education into advance. Housing expense is really important as well. When you were spending upwards of 50%, 60% of your income on housing, it doesn't allow you to create the kind of nest egg that moves you into home ownership. It doesn't allow you to create the or present the kind of credit profile if you're an entrepreneur that you need in order to get access to capital. It doesn't give you the opportunity in some instances to kind of have access to the kinds of amenities that you really need as a family and as an individual in order to advance and grow. And to that point, warehousing is matters. You know, in here in the Bay Area, there's a stark contrast between some of the suburban well funded communities that have access to good schools, good parks, good transportation, good access to freeways, things like that. Versus if you are a low income person, you may be in an area where, you know, your address or your zip code can be a sentence to lack of opportunity. Because of the lack of amenities and infrastructure that's there and available to you. So housing I think really just impacts one's ability to make it economically in all kinds of different ways. And families here as a result are really struggling both economically and from a housing point of view to make ends meet and to thrive. The things that we are doing cut across a whole variety of strategies. I mean, we're working on programmatic solutions. We're working on policy oriented solutions, investment oriented solutions. And we're also really heavily working in the regulatory environment so that the housing can be produced in all parts of the region. So that folks who are renting have the adequate level of rent and protection available to them. And for folks who actually live in an affordable housing and are blessed to do that, make sure that housing stays affordable. And so there are all kinds of things that we can go into later that kind of demonstrate the ability to work on all those fronts. But I think that, you know, that is really what the mix looks like for us. And I think the reason why we think it's important and why housing and economic security really need to be linked. Thanks, Fred. So Jose, Fred, I think provided some of the kind of structural insight into how we are in the situation that we're in. And of course, you as treasurer have been deeply involved in financial empowerment and financial justice, which strikes me as a little bit unusual for a treasurer. And maybe you can talk a little bit about how you got into this and what you've been focused on. Thanks, Alicia. It's great to join you and Fred. It's great to see everyone here today. Yeah, absolutely. I think one thing that we can all say about local government is that we're involved in a lot of ways in lots of people's lives, whether they know it or not. And I think oftentimes we forget how many ways local government gets involved. But in the treasurer's office, let me just share the full title, Treasurer Text Collector's Office. It really grows the popularity. And we're involved a lot with the finances of the city. We have a lot of folks in our office who know a lot about how to handle money and be successful with money. But we can easily see that there's a lot of folks in our community who aren't as knowledgeable, aren't as well equipped, don't have access to the right financial products and tools to be able to be successful. So as long as I've been treasurer, we've been launching programs to help people, low-income people, largely members of communities of color who've been disadvantaged, uninformed, or actually just cut off from the appropriate opportunities to build wealth and to be financially successful. So we launched a program to help people who don't have bank accounts get connected to a bank account and could stop paying five, six, or $700 a year in fees to a check cashier. We now connect folks one-on-one to a financial coach so they can understand, for example, what their credit score is all about and how they can manage their debt versus their savings, how they can have the right financial products. And many of those interactions lead to vast improvements in people's financial scores and financial outcomes. The program started a program with the local school district here where we automatically open up a college savings account for every child in the public schools here in San Francisco so that every kid and their family are saving for talking about and building aspirations for college or advanced educational outcomes of whatever kind that make a person successful no matter where they grow up. So we want to do things like that to really look at how we can help people be more successful in spite of the systemic and structural challenges that they might face. I do want to share, though, in a spirit of full disclosure that about five years ago we started to look at what our own city governments, fines and fees were doing and how we were impacting people right here in our own city. And what we found, and this is not exciting, what we found is that times our own fines and fees were becoming predatory and harmful to low-income people in our community. Let me describe how. Anytime a fine or a fee is one dollar amount for everybody, it just follows. But that impact of that fine or fee is going to be far different on a low-income individual or a low-income family than it is on a middle or particularly high-income family or individual. And we see, unfortunately, impacts about that all over the place. Let me give you a quick example. If someone just happens to park in the wrong place at a time on a street where we need to clear the cars for rush hour, they might get their car towed. So usually the signage is all there, it just happens, it happens every day. Well, when you get your car towed in San Francisco to go get it back, it costs nearly $500 on day one. I'm not talking storage fees or anything. Well, the truth of the matter is a low-income family, the vast majority of low-income families don't have that kind of money. They don't have $500 waiting. And you know what? They lose their car. Well, what happens if a family loses their car? Does that mean a wage earner can't get to work? If that person can't get to work, does that mean they lose their job? And if they lose their job, can they no longer pay their rent? So then do they get evicted? Does anyone think that parking in the wrong place at the wrong time means a family ought to get evicted from their home? Of course not. Of course not. So that's what the Financial Justice Project that we started all these years ago is all about. How do we fix that problem? And what we found in a case like that is we have to right-size that financial penalty, that financial fine for getting your car towed by parking in the wrong place. And today we brought that $500 class down to $100 for the poorest people in our community, and for someone actually living in their car, that tow fine is reduced to zero. So we're really trying to be responsive and I think this is what the government needs to do. It's what it's all about. We need to be fair. We need to right-size things or even eliminate fees if they just don't make sense if they're causing more harm than good. I could go on and on with more examples and we've actually changed or eliminated at this point now dozens of fines and fees in San Francisco. We still have a lot of work to do. We still need to make sure that we're treating everybody fairly and we're not being harmful to anybody in our community. So one of the things that COVID did is it brought into just very vivid, clear view where we had fault lines and fractures in our sort of structure of economic security as a community and I know Fred, the San Francisco Foundation has done a lot of work to work with different parts of the different cities in the region, different organizations in the region to look at what kinds of interventions that were invented during COVID could be and should be carried forward because while the situation was very acute during COVID it was all preceded by that pandemic. Can you talk a little bit about what you've seen as most promising, what you think we need to be pursuing at this point? Yeah, you know, a couple of things come to mind on this. One is that I don't know if everybody else has been kind of reading these articles recently but about maybe two or three weeks ago there was this kind of series of articles that came out in the New York Times and other places talking about the dramatic reductions in child poverty over the last year and kind of doing a little bit of analysis around how that happened during that time. I can't help but think that things like the expansion of the child care tax credit, things like what I would actually characterize as one of the biggest guaranteed income or universal basic income programs in the stimulus checks that went out. Those kinds of things and there probably a list of three or four others that we did kind of in that moment that I think really did a lot to raise the floor for low-income families and to do it in ways that were different than the way that we thought about it before and really kind of challenged our kind of common thinking around how it is that we need to be presenting supports to low-income families. I mean, we often, I think for years, and I can point to many political instances where folks were characterizing low-income folks as not being able to manage money well and that you can't trust them with AFDC and all that kind of stuff. I'm sure everybody in here remembers that body of work. When the reality is that folks who are low-income probably are managing dollars and better at managing money than any of us because they know how to stretch a dollar. But that's not the only part of it. We also know, I mean, we have people and I think Maurice Miller has spoken at this conference in the past. He runs something called the Family Independence Initiative. That has always been about trusting families to know best what to do with their dollars. And so I think that a lot of the things that we experimented with during that period kind of in the spirit of trying to be responsive to the real intense situation that was associated with COVID, they need to continue. We need to continue to think about how we can give families cash aid to get them above the poverty line. We need to continue to think about how we expand programs that provide access to good food and high-quality food. We need to continue to think about how we have a tax structure that supports low-income families, families with children, and not just kind of the kinds of approaches that we've used in the past to kind of create a tax situation that supports a trickle-down set of economic circumstances that we already know don't work. Yeah, I'm really glad that you raised this because it strikes me that guaranteed income is a great example of sort of a mindset shift that has taken place in the policy world and what you were describing, Jose, with the sort of self-analysis of in what ways is government creating poverty conditions for people, unintentionally, presumably, but nonetheless creating those conditions. To me, it really speaks to a different way of understanding poverty and taking poverty out of the kind of framework of individual failure and moral failure and poverty as proof that you've done something wrong and putting it instead into a framework of poverty as an outcome that is designed. It is a totally logical outcome of the way that we have our systems designed. I'm very curious about how did we get to a point where we could start to make that mindset shift and where does it take us? Because we get really stuck. We think we know what's true and then we start to see something a little bit differently and sometimes it takes off. We've seen guaranteed income pilots popping up everywhere has been terrific, but how does that happen and where does it take us? I would just say, and I couldn't agree with you more, Alicia, I would just say that as painful as the last few years have been to your and Fred's points, we've really had an opportunity to have our eyes opened. We, at the city level, we really stepped up and worked very, very hard to help people who were struggling the most during the pandemic. We were kicking into high gear. We were finding ways to give food replacement cards out to people, income replacement cards out to people, wages while they were having to quarantine replacement values out to people. All these things, we really stood them up and put them in place. It felt like overnight. I'm sure we could have gone faster, but really we managed to turn ourselves around and serve a lot of folks. And I think it really, as I said, opened up our eyes to the potential of how helpful and how meaningful and how fundamentally life-changing that kind of help can be. Fred, to your point, obviously the federal government stepped in in some very major ways, helped people nationwide. But I think that what we've learned from a lot of that has been that we don't need to be restricted by old patterns and old practices. We really can break the mold. We really are now launching, to your point, a number of more guaranteed income pilots where we had one, we called Abundant Babies, where we helped expecting mothers, particularly who were facing statistically lower, less successful outcomes. We're now also looking at one to help folks aging out of foster care to help them get up on their feet and that. And particularly I'm excited about the role that our office, the Treasurer's Office, has been able to play. Because we always need to be mindful of what are the unexpected impacts of helping people with these financial types of assistance. For example, a lot of folks we're enrolling in these types of programs might be receiving public benefits already. They might be receiving food stamps, some sort of affordable housing, some sort of public assistance. We want to make sure that the monies we're giving them don't put them in a place where now all of a sudden they're no longer eligible for those types of benefits because those benefits are fundamental to the success of their families. And so we've had to take a close look at tax laws, other types of policies to make sure that what we're doing, we're doing in a way that's not in any way producing unintended harms, but rather is only delivering the benefits and the good. And when we do those programs, not only are we making sure that we're not causing any harm, but we're more often than not, when we evaluate them, seeing that people, to your point, Fred, they're not giving in to unnecessary whims or luxuries. They're rather, more often than not, taking care of fundamental needs, paying the rent, paying for a child's needs, taking care of some old debt that's been a burden for a long time. I couldn't agree with you more, Fred. People that have the least amount of money who are living close to the edge are probably the best people in the world managing how to stretch a dollar and how to manage a very limited amount of funding and financial opportunity to make for the best outcomes. And we want to just grow that and build on that and have the city play a role with all kinds of partners to see how we can produce better lives for people here. Alicia, you know, one thing I want to jump on here that I think is important to kind of lift up in this context is like the importance of the right kind of philanthropy. And the reason this comes up for me is, you know, we at the San Francisco Foundation have been operating and guided by North Star that's about creating a greater degree of racial equity and economic inclusion at a regional level of scale here in the Bay Area. And shortly after we designated that North Star, we really kind of came to the conclusion that while programs and services at scale were really important in terms of kind of being able to deliver services and get basic needs to families. And that was particularly true during the early stages of the COVID epidemic. That approach is necessary but also insufficient. And that we also need to be focusing in on what we're learning through the delivery of services and programs and translate that into good public policy that takes that work to scale. And that only gets done when the philanthropic sector is looking for those lessons and willing the partner with the public sector. And so that's a really key thing because everything that we're talking about right now, I mean, folks really rushed in a good way and a responsive way to make sure that people had, you know, basic needs met. Food, shelter, clothing, sometimes cash. And that was important to do. But what we're learning is that what was also important to do was to think about how we could demonstrate that that was working and now needs to be translated into public policy that supports those kinds of approaches long-term to support families. I wanted to thank you as those were great points. I want to talk a little bit about the kind of building on this question of scaling. We've been talking a lot about raising the floor. And, you know, we spent a little bit of time in Denmark my organization did doing a study trip and what we learned from the way that Denmark has their economy organized is the government is incredibly motivated to make sure everybody participates in the economy because that's how they generate the tax revenue they need to pay for things like free college and free healthcare and it's almost free transit, etc. Which raises everybody's quality of life. We are not in a position where our taxes are providing that level of service to our people. And I guess I'm curious how you think about sort of the other side of this, the redistributive side of this, how do you scale these programs that do lift the floor until such a time at least that there are more folks who are in the system generating that revenue themselves. You know, you said something really important in terms of your visit to Denmark, which is they viewed it as a competitive advantage. You know, in a global economy your ability to compete as a nation depends on your ability to present a skilled, ready, working workforce to the global economy and to the extent that only a fraction of your population is contributing to the economic growth in the region you are putting yourself at a competitive disadvantage. I don't know why we haven't come to that conclusion yet here. But that is exactly the kind of thing that we need to do. This is, you know, I've grown up in a family of folks that are about social and economic justice all my life so I believe all of this stuff is the moral thing to do, it's the right thing to do. It's also the competitively expedient and more impactful way to approach the work. We will not remain competitive as long as we are leaving people behind. And so we've got to figure out a way to have a tax system, to have a set of public policies that not just raise the floor but foster economic mobility if we want to continue to be called a world-class country. Definitely, and I just want to add, I couldn't agree more, but I just want to add that combines both fresh new ideas and new programs with a complete look and analysis and possible overhaul of all of our current and past practices because as I've just said, we've been finding over and over again where the city, our practices, and then this isn't our city alone. This is every local government and state governments all across the country have the same types of fines, fees, and injustices built into their system that have been there for decades. No one created these yesterday or decided to put them out there today. They've been around forever and that's why people are not aware of the impact we're having. So we really need to analyze and to some degree tear down practices we've had in place for years and years and years because we've just got to be realized and recognize that they're harming people, they're not helping people. Thank you, Vlad. So we're coming close on our time, but just in our final moments here, I'd love to hear from you all. This is long-term work, right? This is long-term work. 10 years, 20 years from now, assuming that we continue to make progress, what would you hope to see that lets us know we're on the right path? Yeah, Alicia, it's a great question. It's long-term work and it is also work that I've concluded doesn't get delivered or hit the point that it needs to make or have the impact that it needs to have with just good memos and PowerPoints and solid data. Folks have to be engaged. You know, I, as I said, I've spent a whole career, lifetime focused in on issues having to do with racial equity and made a lot of presentations, analyzed a lot of data. I've had PowerPoint presentations with just the right amount of white space and number of bullets. And in the summer of 2020, young people who said enough is enough took to the streets and created a conversation in this country that has opened the door. The open doors that I didn't know were available to be open, frankly, to advance that cause. And so it's a long game and I think one of the things that we have to make sure that we pay attention to is that we are not going to program ourselves out of this mess. People need to be engaged. People need to be engaged on this issue. People need to be engaged if we have any hope of holding on to the democracy that I think we all have taken for granted. And I think that that's an important part of the solution, which is also a part of the long game. And I would just build on that by saying I was going to say a lot of the same things, but I want everyone in this room and everybody in this country to be engaged in the work on this and I would urge everyone, please, don't just think about this. Don't just even just talk about this. I wish people would be bold. I wish people would come to the local government and tell us what we need to be doing more and more and more. I wish people would work with us more and help us understand better about the impacts we're having and the tools that we could exercise to make things better for all sorts of members in our community. And I think with that, we can do things like build more affordable housing. We can do things like have more job training programs and build more opportunities and create programs that help people get there. So I'm just, first of all, I want to thank you both so much. I was just going to close with my young son asked me the other day if you had three wishes from a genie, what would they be? And so I asked him, well, you tell me first. And he said, well, I would wish to eliminate poverty and climate change and sprout wings so I could fly whenever I wanted to. So let us all sprout wings and fly. Thank you. Thank you.


I'm Marcia Joyner and we are navigating the journey. Today's journey is very very special and we are going to visit with Lee Gordon A. Schreiner from who is part of the organization that supports the hospital the Schreiner's Hospital for Children here in Honolulu and it is a very special visit and we want all of you to donate of course but there's more to the hospital than just donating Lee yes yeah there he is hi hi Lee Gordon is a dear dear friend and you all know I only talk to dear friends I have known Lee since I'm not going to try to remember how long it's been I do your daughter was two years old now I don't know she's a college graduate right yes but you actually knew me with my first daughter oh okay which who is a long since graduated from college so you're getting both mixed up oh okay well they're both pretty girls what can I say over 30 years we've done one another oh lord uh Lee so tell us about you and your position as a Schreiner and what does it mean being a Schreiner and how that fits into the hospital the Schreiner's Hospital for Children well that can be somewhat confusing for most people in that in order for a person to become a Schreiner they have to first become a Mason and you know with Masonry you'll see uh our emblem is the square in the compass so I first became a Mason and then I became a Schreiner so there's a saying that goes every Schreiner is a Mason but not every Mason is a Schreiner so the Schrein is actually the philanthropic portion of Masonry and how it came to be is that Masonry um to be quite honest with you can be a little bit boring you know we have a monthly meeting we do the same things over and over and over so back in the 1800s there were a group of doctors that were uh Masons in New York City and they thought you know this is kind of um boring let's do something fun so they created a concordant body and they named it the Schrein or for Schreiners and they took on the theme of the Middle East which is why we were a pheasants and if you look at some of the you know the drawings that we have and the paintings you'll see camels and sand dunes and so it was created for fun and they actually met in a bar in New York so that'll tell you what they were looking for so that's how it started well um Hawaii got its charter as a Schrein charter in 1901 and you know for years you know the partying went on everybody had a great time and then the polio epidemic hit which you know just devastated the country and in the world for that matter so children were dying they were having horrible deformities it was really um it was pretty bad so these doctors these very doctors with the Schreiners organizations said well why don't we start a children's hospital and treat these kids with polio so the first hospital was opened in Shreveport Louisiana in 1922 and to show you how much history Hawaii has with the Schrein the second hospital was opened in Honolulu in 1923 so we were the second of 22 hospital hospitals to be opened within the hospital system of 22 hospitals so we have an endowment fund that funds the hospital system and the endowment fund is worth about 10 billion dollars wow and yet we still the hospitals cost more to run than the than the endowment spends off an interest so we're always in deficit spending so we're always struggling trying to raise money so that we can provide these services for the kids now obviously polio is no longer a threat but um you know the Schrein system pretty much is a pediatric orthopedic hospital so any orthopedic issue that a child has we can deal with we also do cleft palate we have in Hawaii we have a dental clinic we have an injury clinic that's open every day for kids that may get injured in sports school and for a child that cannot afford to pay they don't have to pay so we provide the service we can't say we provided free of charge because if you do have insurance we'll accept the insurance and that's pretty much how the hospital works I mean I could go more into depth you know our hospital here has 165 employees we service kids from Samoa from American Samoa from Tahiti from Guam we have service some kids from the Philippines from Japan so you know the Pacific Rim is our geographic territory well uh my granddaughter one of my granddaughter's when she was just beginning to walk and oh I carried on about her legs they didn't look right what's wrong with her legs and I insisted so my daughter takes her to Schreiners and the doctor looked at me and he looked at her mother and he says two two those are just Asian legs there's nothing wrong with this child so so that was my experience with the hospital well if you have any other specific questions you know I could tell you a little bit more about the the facility here yeah we're located on seven acres of land right in the heart of Honolulu right across the street from Kapi'olani took women and children's hospital I think we have a picture of the hospital yeah and it is a marvelous facility yeah and that property was actually donated to the hospital in perpetuity by the Dalsett family so as long as it remains a hospital for children um we can we can stay there but as soon as that changes if we try to turn it into a hotel they can take it back but there's because there's nothing like it in the pacific at all no no so we can't yeah something else that differentiates us from the rest of the hospitals in our system is that we actually have a family center so we can house 17 families on our property so these families that are coming from far away actually have a place to stay because orthopedic issues are not it's not like an appendix or appendicitis where you go in one morning and you go home the next with us sometimes the kids are here three four months at a time as they're going after surgery through the rehab process so it it does get a little bit expensive and what the local Aloha Shriners organization as a fraternity is responsible for is paying for their transportation so the transportation cost to bring these kids here even from the outer islands and you know and like I told you these far away places we spend about $250,000 a year in transporting the kids and that is what the local Aloha Shriners fraternity is responsible for and you know they're not many of us they're only about 650 of us so it's a struggle for us to raise that year after year after year and you know our desire is to actually treat more children more more kids in more places and in order to do that it's going to take more money because we have to bring you know that means we'll be buying more and more airplane tickets so you know this appeal to the community to assess assist us in raising funds is is you know a sincere effort on our part to treat more kids in more places so couldn't you get what is it Hawaiian air or somebody as a co-sponsor oh that's a wonderful thought and believe me we've tried all of that but you know it's you know every now and then you know for a while Hawaiian actually had a mileage program and people could donate their miles and we could use the miles to transport the kids but I don't recall that that's anything we did last year of course last year you know COVID year things kind of dropped all crazy yeah so but you know the airline industry does what it can but you know there's so many nonprofit organizations that there's so many wonderful things for the community that if they do one something for us then they're doing it for everybody and then next thing you know everybody on the plane is fine for free so they're not up for that yeah uh now you know uh we did talk about the early days you said the charter in Hawaii was 1901 yes but now the but the king kawakawa was amazing yeah king kawakawa became a shriner actually just right before his death but he was a member of the shrine temple in san francisco because we hadn't been chartered when he became a shriner however he was extremely active in masonry here in hawaii he was the first 33rd degree mason and scottish right he was master of his lodge uh you know he's he's just done everything so you know we have masonry then we have scottish right york right and the shrine which are the three or the three concordant bodies and he was instrumental in developing all of those along with his brother while john dominus so the two of them did a lot to help masonry get a foothold here in hawaii so now there's you said shriner scottish right and what else york right yep you were scottish right i'm shriner scottish right and york right i'm in all of them now what was the the facility where you had an office in town not not at the hospital that's uh the scottish right building i'm the secretary for the valley of honolulu the valley of honolulu yeah that's interesting the valley of honolulu in the orient of hawaii and grand and and guam and illustrious uh andrew geyser is the deputy for our our orient so he's over everything from here to guam um well that's that's interesting that you all of that's connected oh yeah so you're connected all over the world i presume oh yeah it's an international organization and shriner's uh recent over the past few years changed its name to shriner's international so now you have that beautiful place in limanala what what is that uh that's our beach park and the beach park is available to the general public on saturdays for rent so a lot of major companies corporations in town will rent the property for their company picnics people will have baby luows we've had some people to actually get married out there so and then on sundays you know the shriner's are all masons don't believe in doing any work on sunday so sunday is the day we're all out of the beach so sunday is beach day at shriner's beach house so but do the children go out there or is this just a dog i mean the hospital the hospital children well we the families of shriner's go out there every sunday uh the kids at the hospital we bring them out uh occasionally the big time that we bring them is in the summer it's called the end of summer bash and we'll have a huge picnic with bouncy houses and clowns and they can go in the water and we feed them and some hold it's a big big deal but you know and seeing that a lot of them have orthopedic issues you know they're in wheelchairs on crutches so we have to bring you know the big buses that have the elevators in the bus to get them up and down so we don't transport them or move them around too much but we do bring them out there at least once a year for that well now how long i'm all confused about this the kids have they come from wherever even locally and let's assume that they were born with something not correct with their feet or let ankles and they need to be corrected so that they can walk perfectly how long does that take does it is a surgery is it what what goes on uh well i can vary uh but you know some issues especially the kids that are from here you know i think when you were talking about maybe their feet going in you know kind of towing in that's a club it's called clubfoot and that can be if it's not too severe it can actually be treated without surgery we can do that with casting but the surgeries you know like if we're doing a scoliosis case where we're doing the implanting titanium rods and their spine to straighten their back you know obviously that's pretty invasive and pretty serious and we can't just send them home right after that because infection is uh the big fear so they can be in the hospital sometimes for up to you know a month sometimes two months uh when we're doing lamb lengthening uh where you're making one leg longer like if a kid has a limp uh that can take a lot longer because we're actually there's a device that's put on the um leg called an alizarof and the leg is or the bone is actually cut and then it cranks out a little bit at a time each day and bone mass matter grows in as that's occurring so some those procedures can take two or three months oh i would think so that's a quite a that's fabulous that it it can grow on its own yeah that's amazing amazing what the body can do it is the we need to talk about raising funds so if people want to donate how do they do that well we have a development director at the hospital by the name of lori swan and if you call the hospital or you go to the website and try to contact lori trust me she'll call you back right now because of coven not it you know we we don't have people actually on site except for the nurses and the doctors and the patients to so but she does check her voicemail and email every day and she's a wonderful person and she we have so many different ways that you can contribute i mean you know it could be write a check or it could be you know like other organizations you could be a monthly uh taking out of your bank account of five dollars a month or you know whatever you want to do and some people actually will properties and cars and all kinds of stuff to the hospital so we're open to any type of contribution whatsoever even if we have to turn it to cash on our own about you know beyond that so like if we get a condominium donated to us you know we obviously can't maintain a condominium so it would actually be put up for sale and then the monies would come into our coffers to help with our cause so but lori is the specialist and can answer any questions you may have if you have a desire to donate to the hospital so now are there women members of the shriners well we have female organizations we have the ladies of the oriental shrine of north america we have the daughters of the nile and then not necessarily associated with the shrine per se we have the order of the eastern star which are women and then there are other organizations women's organizations that aren't represented here on hawaii uh but they're they are on the mainland like the like job starters i think some that i'm not that familiar with but we have an organization for women men girls the girls are rainbow girls young boys or demolay boys and this is all to you know with especially with the kids to build character to turn them into responsible citizens responsible caring citizens and uh anymore it's kind of hard to find people that care that's true and what about now with this virus and everybody's not gathering how do you have other organized things do you zoom meetings do you what else can you do since we can't go out and just i'm just about zoomed out so am i so so you you heard i'm in scottish right york right shrine and blue lodge and they each have meetings and then if you're on different committees you know they have meetings so and i'm kind of in all of it so there's at least one zoom meeting a day sometimes more sometimes more yeah well now after this but i as since you said it's been 30 years but as long as i can remember you have been involved in all kind of organizations and really doing and donating time and energy to so many organizations god love you well i just follow people like you that's not true but thank you it is true thank you so much uh but you now you as a business you tune pianos yes but let's not talk about that because i don't want any more piano customers i didn't know people still had pianos oh yes yes so the last time we talked about pianos the shell pianos were in such bad shape did they ever get that fixed oh no no they can't fix a bathroom how they're gonna fix a piano third list of priorities they've got new people in charge so maybe that'll help let's hope so yeah so that's too bad it's a lovely place to just let it go yeah yeah so we're not going to talk about pianos all right that's fine yeah that's fine yeah so what else are you doing um well you know obviously this was all around the shrine but you know we also have one of the organizations that i'm in which which we talked about earlier is the scottish rite and our philanthropy here is what we call the right care program and it's dealing with children with speech impediments that are preschoolers before they get into the public school system or private school system so and that's another scholarship funded operation that we have here so if you know of anyone that has a preschooler that's having difficulties with his speech we're the one we have extremely well qualified speech therapists here to work with them we have a question we have a question from a viewer did shriners have to choose to restrict their help because of covet did you help less kids last year than in 2019 yes we the answer is yes we we served fewer children because of covet and that's because all the surgeries that we do are categorized as elective surgeries and you know the government just kind of banned electric elective surgeries for a while um they we were just doing essential work right so you know gunshot wounds but we don't do that right so it really hurt us because you know everything we do is elective you don't have to fix our length of the limb you don't have to you know straighten the spine which is kind of crazy but it did have a negative effect on us plus a lot of the kids you know we have we service the whole state so kids coming in from Maui and you know we're restricted by the travel so you know no one wants to come over here for one day and then get quarantined for 14 days to go back home and then get home and have to quarantine for another 14 days you know so it has been very difficult for us but we've still managed to service the kids not as many but we've still serviced them well you mentioned scoliosis my uncle my father's youngest brother had scoliosis and um he's 17 years older than me and when I visit my grandmother so I was the only three-year-old that knew the word scoliosis that in those days he had to be in an iron lung and it's come so far since then yeah we don't do that anymore oh as a matter of fact we have an x-ray device it's called the eos x-ray machine which is a low dosage x-ray machine it it delivers 90 less radiation than a standard radiology visit and it allows us to actually do a to turn it into a three-dimensional picture so um yeah we have some really nice equipment we have our own orthotics labs so we make our own prosthetics and braces and everything right there at the hospital oh fabulous well listen sweetheart we are down to the very last minute but again tell us how to make a donation who do we call uh what you want to ask for lori suan and that's suan and if you give me just a second i'll actually give you the the telephone number sorry i should have had that queued up but uh oh and now i can't do it so i'm sorry but just shriners hospital honolulu and ask for the development office and that would be lori and we'll gladly take your call and help you set up a way to to fund our philanthropy well lee as always it's a pleasure spending time with you and we will look forward to seeing you after the covid is over when we can actually visit okay thank you thank you uh marcia for the opportunity to shine a light on shriners to the rest of the community well it's a fabulous hospital and thank you and we'll see you soon okay have a happy new year aloha


Hello everyone. So first let me thank the organizers of this webinar series for their invitation. In this talk, I will first present some space mission and especially focus on its core program which is devoted to gamma robust. And then I will try to discuss possible interesting synergies with the Cherenkov telescope array observatory. So I will start with a very brief introduction to gamma robust. So gamma robust appear in two main classes, according to their duration, short gamma reverse of the duration of typically 0.1 seconds and long gamma reverse several times or hundreds of seconds and probably the same physics at work with two different classes of progenitors. And observation shows that there are two main episodes of emission, the prompt gamma reverse, which is a short lived and is observed mainly in sub gamma rays, but thanks to Fermilat we know that there is high energy mission, and there are also a few cases of prompt detection in optical with robotic telescopes. And then multi wavelengths afterglow which is a fastly decaying and shows a complex temporal behavior with also some led variability and change of temporal slopes. This afterglow is observed from radio to x-rays, very commonly. And again Fermilat has shown that there is a high energy mission with a so called long lasting emission in Fermilat and very recently as everyone knows there were a few detection by S and magic. On the theoretical point of view, we know thanks to optical afterglow and the spectroscopy of the optical afterglows that can reverse occur in distant galaxies at cosmological distance. Meaning that they are extremely bright intrinsically and the combination of this huge radiated energy with a short time scale variability which is observed in the light curve. Associat gamma reverse to cataclysmic event leading to the formation of a stellar mass compact object, a black hole, or possibly a magnetar. And so a long gamma reverse are associated to the collapse of an assistar, some assistars, there are probably some diversity in the population, and short gamma reverse are very probably associated to a binary neutron star merger. There is one famous association. The gamma radiation cannot be produced by the source, the central engine itself, due because it's opaque. And so first the energy is injected in a relativistic jet by a mechanism which still needs to be clearly identified. And then at a certain radius, which is called the photosphere radius, the jet becomes transparent for its own radiation and the observed emission can be produced. So due to the high variability in the prompt light curve, we know that the gamma reverse itself must be produced by internal dissipation in the jet itself. There are several possible mechanisms. And then the afterglow is a signature of the deceleration of this jet by the ambient medium. So, now that I have tried to introduce very, very briefly this general context, I will move to the presentation of Zvom. So, Zvom is a Chinese French mission. I have listed here the laboratories which are involved. And I should mention that on the French side, we have also associate partners in Mexico for robotic telescope in the visible, and in UK and Germany for the X-ray on board Zvom. So, Zvom stands for space-based multiband astronomical variable objects monitor. It should be launched mid-2023 for a duration of five years plus possible extension. And it offers a very broad set of instruments. So first, there is a spacecraft with two wide field instruments, Eclare and GRM in gamma rays, and two narrow field instruments, MXT in X-rays and VT invisible. And there are some rapid slowing capabilities, especially in the context of gamma reverse to follow an alert and through the spacecraft to point the narrow field instruments. There is a VHF alert network which allows to transmit a sub-sample of data in near real time. And of course, we have selected the relevant data to be able to produce near real-time alerts following a gamma robust. And of course, then the full set of data is transmitted more regularly with another channel. And in addition to the spacecraft, we have also our own ground segment for a rapid follow up with several robotic telescopes of different sizes. I will show that in a few minutes. An important property of zoom is an early anti-solar pointing, which will optimize the rapid follow up of gamma robust, and especially the rapid follow up on ground in the visible or near infrared where of course you need to wait for the night. So the core program of zoom is devoted to gamma robust. It will represent typically 25% of the observing time of zoom alerts and follow up. But of course gamma reverse at the highest priority so the other observation program will be interrupted when we detect a gamma. And so the best to present the various instruments of the zone is to show what kind of gamma robust sample we expect to detect. So the idea is that it starts with a first instrument which is a eclair. It's a French coded mask telescope operating in soft gamma rays from four to 150 kb. And which is responsible for the trigger, the localization, and then the measurement in combination with another instrument of the light curve and spectrum of the prompt emission. So we have simulated many gamma reverse from current and past mission with eclair. So, for instance, on the plot on the right here, you have a plane with on the x axis, the direction of gamma robust, and on the y axis, the peak and the spectrum properties of the gamma reverse is it a soft event, a hard event. And we are simulated many, many events from the various catalogs that you can read here. And the color code is for the detection efficiency by eclair, assuming a random position in the field of view. And from that, we show that eclair is sensitive to all known classes of gamma robust, of course, classical long gamma robust, but also less known population of soft gamma robust, low luminosity gamma robust, extra rich gamma robust, extra flashes. And eclair is also sensitive to short gamma robust, but with the more moderate efficiencies due to the spectrum range of the instrument. And thanks to the field of view, which is about two steradian, we expect from 40 to 80 gamma reverse per year and of course there are large uncertainties due to the low energy threshold of eclair which will probe less known populations. So, the advantage of using a coded mass telescope is that we will be able immediately after the trigger to have a localization accuracy, better than 12 minutes. And it will be transmitted in every time thanks to our VHF network. This is a second gamma ray instrument called GRM, which is a Chinese instrument and which will extend the spectral range for the observation of the prompt emission to five MED, which is a good advantage because our purpose is really to build a sample of gamma robust, where we can correctly characterize all important aspects of the phenomenon the prompt emissions you have to go and of course measure the distance. So the GRM will help. And you see the comparison of the field of view of the three detectors at GRM with the eclair field of view on the on the on the on the right. And of course, the sub sample of gamma robust seen by the two instruments will of course be our best sample. GRM itself will also detect other gamma robust, which are outside the field of view of eclair, but then the localization is not so good it's a few degrees of this in the sky. And by combining eclair and GRM we can improve our sensitivity to short gamma robust, which is of course an important goal in the context of multi messenger. So, to finish with the prompt emission, we have also another Chinese instrument called GWAC, which operates in the visible with a very large field of view it's a set of robotic cameras, and it follows eclair field of view and then we expect to have either an upper limit or a detection of the prompt optical 10% of cases, and as this prompt that you can mission has not been explored so much. There are only a few cases of detection. It is, it's potentially very interesting to extend the spectral range where we cover as the prompt emission. I show here an example of spectrum that we have simulated, taking a family burst and simulating it in both in eclair and GRM, and we show that combining both instruments, we can really well recover the spectral, the spectral shape of the event. Even taking into account complex multi component spectra as as obtained in some bright GBM burst. So we will really be able to characterize correctly the prompt emission. So, then for the if is a signal is strong enough so that we are quite confident in the localization. There will be a few requests for the spacecraft. And then we can focus on this sample of camera burst where a clue will occur, because this will be the most interesting sample with afterglow observation. So typically, from, I mean, about 90% of the previous sample. So, the first narrow field instrument is an x ray telescope and x t, which results from a collaboration between France, UK and Germany. And we show that with the sensitivity of an x t, which is a little less than the sensitivity of XRT on both swift. On the other hand, with a large larger field of view covering very well. We will detect the extra afterglow in 90% of cases after the through, and then be able to provide a much better localization, typically less than 13 act second. So you can see here as an example of the simulation of a swift XRT afterglow in the mixed in continuity with the detection of the prompt emission by a clear and German. That is that with a low energy threshold of a clear, we could see the beginning of the afterglow in some cases. Then we have also on board Chinese telescope operating in the visible with two filters in which will allow also some early diagnostic about dust or irate shift. And then we have several ground based telescopes. So in addition to GWACs that I have already mentioned, which has not a very deep limit magnitude, we have larger telescopes and French telescopes a French one is called Colibri and is prepared in collaboration with Mexico. And we, we, our goal is to have a fast follow up and to be able to provide a photometric redshift in as many cases as possible. And in the I should mention that the French ground follow up telescope has a near infrared channel, which of course helps quickly for this redshift measurement. And so combining these telescopes, our system and the anti solar pointing strategy, and taking into account the fact that we are currently having some agreement with several other teams having their own telescopes for follow up. We expect to improve the fraction of Camaribus with a redshift measurement and our goal is to reach two thirds of our sample. So I can summarize by saying that if we compare to current observation with swift and Fermi, we do not expect a sample as large as what is currently done, but we expect a sample where all properties of the event are correctly measured. So compared to swift, for instance, we have a better coverage, a much better coverage of the prompt emission and compared to Fermi we have of course the capability of localization and afterglow follow up. And we will try to improve the redshift measurement. Even with swift it's still only a little less than one third of Camaribus which have a measured redshift. And in addition, we open this new window with at low energy with this low energy threshold at 40. And so of course we will address all the other topics of Camaribus science today. I will now, if you want, focus on some aspects, which have maybe some connection with Cherenkov telescope array to discuss some possible synergies. So for instance, I will skip the interesting topic of Camaribus as a tool to study the distance universe because on the point of view of Cherenkov telescopes. So I received Camaribus, which are the most interesting events. So I will say a little more, a little more words about two other samples short gamma robust, and also all the diversity of long gamma robust including soft events in the local universe. So let's start with short gamma robust, which are associated to binary neutron star measures. And of course, a major, a major target in the present context, especially with the coming runs of Lego will go. And the idea is that the situation is quite complex today, because we know that these events, especially on the point of view of emission from the relative stick ejection ejecta have a strong dependency on the viewing angle. And we have clearly two kinds of events, typically, typically nearby events detected by gravitational waves, which are usually seen off axis. And where we are limited by the gamma race sensitivity for instance 17 or 17 was only at the detect detection threshold of firm. And we have on axis events where we can detect the short gamma reverse even at high distance, but for the moment, the horizon and gravitational was do not reach hybrid shift. We will probably have to wait for the search generation of detectors to really reach hybrid shift, even if we second generation detectors at final sensitivity. So we can still expect to have both population verging. And so clearly observing bright short gamma reverse in association with gravitational wave is really a difficult goal and should not be too optimistic for this point. But still, if it's possible, of course, large field of view of a clear is very well adapted for that and off tier and of course, and then for the off axis short gamma reverse. You will see that the discussion is more or less the same as detecting fend event in the local universe. So I will join the both discussion in two slides. So just to say that of course we will have a sample of short gamma reverse maybe without gravitational was but it's still very interesting to probe this, this is a population, and especially to try to really characterize it well because for instance, as shown that some short gamma reverse are followed by an X, an X retail. And this is very interesting to try to understand the post merger evolution. And clearly, with the combination of girm and eclair with a low energy threshold of eclair, we are well adapted to probe this phenomenon. So here I show an example of a short gamma reverse with a soft tail simulated again by eclair and girm. And you see that we measure well the spectrum of the initial spike, which is the short gamma reverse itself, and also the properties of the of the X retail. So, we hope to have a to extend the sample of a short gamma reverse to reason with a tail, which is not so large currently. And then, as I said, the, the, the four TV low energy threshold of eclair is also very well adapted to study all the city of the gamma reverse population. So short and long, of course, but also the diversity of the long population with a very complex phenomenology, low luminosity burst, X reflashes, X ray rich gamma reverse, and try to build again a sample with a full set of observation from the prompt to the afterglow and the redshift. So, the plot I have already shown, which is on the top right clearly shows that we are sensitive to this low epic population. And it's difficult to predict rights because this population currently is not very well known we don't have a limited function, for instance, but we have made some simulation taking, taking a sample of about 34 local gamma reverse. And you see long gamma reverse, but also some short gamma reverse. And in the long gamma sample, we have all classes of gamma of a long gamma reverse. And we have simulated them in eclair and you see the result on the top on the bottom right, sorry, within the X axis, the distance of these events or other redshift, and on the Y axis, the signal to the ratio in eclair. But most of them are detected. It includes, for instance, for short gamma reverse 17 or 17 so it shows us good sensitivity to nearby of axis short gamma reverse. And it also includes all the diversity of long gamma reverse, for instance, for the experts to recognize 980425, which is the first gamma reverse with an associated supernova, and which was a low luminosity of gamma reverse. And then what is interesting is that thanks to instruments and rapid follow up we will, we should be able to give that early times an estimate of the redshift and say that we have a nearby event and try to trigger a deep follow up. So, we can try to do it with our own instruments, for instance, here I show that with the limit magnitude in airbound of the visible telescope and also of ground follow up telescopes. So, we are sensitive to a killer novel like the one observed in 17 or 17 up to a redshift which is comparable with the horizon of, of, of Lego vehicle in 04. And we are so sensitive to bright see supernovae like the one in association with 8090. And up to that equals 0.3 event to a little fanter one see supernovae, which means that we will use our sample we will also be able to investigate this complex question of the supernova long gamma reverse association, because there are already a few cases of long gamma reverse in the nearby universe of the supernova, but also without a supernova, which is of course very interesting to understand the projector and the, and the initial event triggering the gamma reverse. And as I said, our goal is to provide all the information in early alerts to favor a deep follow up, especially for instance in radio, which will allow the calorimetry energy to measure the energetics of the event. And maybe in some cases via bi, which is very important to better constrained the jet geometry and the viewing angle. Okay, so with all the samples, of course, the idea is to probe the physics of these relativistic jets, the physics of particle acceleration, relative processes. And this is of course where some interesting synergies exist with the chairing of the copyright. Before discussing this synergies I will just show two slides to just mention the fact that in addition to the normal mode of gamma reverse observations that I have just described, starting with a trigger by a clear and all these follow up observation. We will also react to external alerts with of course a longer delay. And this is of course interesting in the multi wavelengths, the multi messenger context. So we will react in particular to gravitational wave alerts and to neutrino alerts. The idea is that with large field of view instruments, we can of course, search for associated camera recorder parts. And we can even do that offline with a better sensitivity than with onboard algorithm. And what what what we can also do is to through our spacecraft, use a neuro field instruments and search for X ray or visible counterparts of typically to search for instance for a Kiloneva or an afterglow following a gravitational wave alert or for an afterglow following a high energy neutrino alert. So in the case of high energy neutrino with an error box of a square degree. NXT as a field of view which is very well adapted. In the case of gravitational waves or box actually much larger and then we are forced to use a complex tiling strategy to explore. And we are trying currently to optimize this strategy, taking into account the expected properties of alerts during both four and five. And of course we will also use our own robotic telescope for the follow up. Either to explore large error box but probably more to try to characterize proposed candidates by other instruments, thanks to our good photometric and even spectroscopic capabilities. Okay, so now I move to the second part of my talk and I will come back on some aspects of what they've discussed and show some synergies with the Jacob telescope array observatory. So, as I said, there are two main phases of emission in gamma in gamma robust the prompt emission with the afterglow. And in both cases, we expect a very high energy emission. So let's start with the prompt emission which is for the moment is less understood component. There are many models in many of them. The observes TV and TV emission comes from synchrotron emission from non some electrons. There are some problems with the scenario and clearly having a broader spectral coverage of the prompt emission should help for for better understanding the scenario. But on the other hand, there are also arguments to say that such an emission in optical is the regime above the photosphere exists, because for instance in some cases we see a variable energy mission in the last. The question of the energy and very high energy emission in this prompt phase is quite complex because there are possible limitations. What you expect is of course synchrotron self content emission, but then it can be shown that we are usually quite deep in the climate in a regime which can of course limit strongly the US content emission. And in addition, there is the limitation due to the per production. So if we have a very high energy we are energy depends on the line sector, we expect a cutoff due to the production of pairs by gamma gamma. So, the idea is that if we can measure correctly as a spectrum at high and very energy, we will learn a lot about both aspects I just mentioned. There is no very high energy detection, and there are a few cases of high energy detection with with a lot where the origin of the mission is not always very clear due to the time resolution but there are a few cases where there is clearly sometimes get by everything and so it's probably an internal origin. So here I show an example of a bright gamma reverse observed by Fermilat, where there is clearly a prompt additional component I energy detected by the lot. And here I show a refined analysis in three different bins of this component done in collaboration with my colleagues in Montpellier at LEPM. And here you see clearly that we, we start to constrain the shape of this additional component with a possible cutoff. So if we analyze this cutoff as due to per production, we can put very interesting constraints on the ejecta on for instance the Lorentz factor of the ejecta or the radius of emission. And what we find are typical values, which we are compatible with the most standard scenario where the mission is produced by internal dissipation shocks or connection above the photosphere. But of course, as the shape is not so well constrained. We can also consider other scenarios where what we see is not a cutoff but more the natural curvature of SSC component. And then of course the question which is important and where the answer is not known is what is in this case, the maximum energy of the mission does it reach a very high energy range. And in some scenarios, it can reach 10 GB or even above. And here I show an example, which are synthetic spectra produced by Jelika Boschnak and myself in the context of the internal shock scenario, which is one of the most discussed scenarios for the origin of the promotion. So we explore a very broad space parameter space, and you see that in many cases, we have a component, which is not often, which is not always bright that is bright in some cases, which extend well above 100 MV and even well above 10 GB so it starts to be for the Chinese telescope array. And I know that Jelika Boschnak is correctly participating in a working group to try to simulate that more precisely in the CTA. Another interesting aspect where there could be a synergy between Zvom and CTA is the fact that there is at least one case where we know that the prompt optical energy emission was really variable. This is a naked burst. And then probably it has an internal origin like the soft gamma rays. And in this case, there are many possibilities but in some scenarios. These prompt optical could be associated to light internal shocks, whereas the synchro tropics in optical rather than in soft gamma rays so you are more easily in the Thompson regime for invest content. So it could be a very interesting to have simultaneously high and very high energy constraints to check such scenario because it's very possible to have a very high energy emission in this case. Of course, there is also the very important discussion of possible ironic contribution because if electrons are accelerated. Even maybe more easily. And then of course, the synergy is not only with the CTA but also with high energy neutrino experiment. I think constraints by the three instruments would be very important for probing such scenarios. So here I have tried to summarize on this summary what can what Zvom can bring and what CTA can bring. So of course for this part, the fast reaction time and the high sensitivity of CTA are the two main assets. And it has been discussed in several papers. I will emphasize the fact that it's very interesting that Zvom is probing the diversity of long gamma reverse in the nearby universe, because for instance, high energy neutrino emission is favored in some scenarios for low energy to be possible to process scenario. And of course, the sample is very interesting for for the CTA more generally because in the nearby in the universe you don't suffer from the extension by the extra galactic background light. And I have mentioned the fact that our constraints on the prompt of the commission can be very relevant to discuss also the very high energy. And of course the afterglow the situation is a little more clear because we have now detections. So a few detections since 2018. So, as you know, it gives some strong in indicate evidence for again the presence, the second possibly SSC component in the afterglow spectrum. And what is interesting is that for instance if you take the example of 1901 14 C. It shows that when you have such a nice data set, including very high energy, very high energy coverage. It allows a very detailed modeling and much better constraints on the afterglow models. And there are the magic collaboration has produced a very nice multi wavelength feet in collaboration with other groups. What is also interesting is that even if there are nice feats. And there is also some current debate in the community about the result of the feats and the way to model this emission. So, of course, we wait for for more events and it will trigger more activity but the idea is that, in principle, this is the best sample to really probe the physics of the acceleration of particles at the forward shock, in the external medium. And I would like also to mention this second case 19 or a 29 a, because what is very interesting this case. This is the fact that the TV mission is detected, but this is not at all a bright gamma robust. And it is observed at a very low rate shift, and it is a low limit of the gamma robust. So already with with very few events we have at TV, we are starting to probe the diversity of this long gamma robust population. So here I really think that some could play a role because it will be very sensitive to this population. There are multi wavelength feats which have been produced. And then it shows that such events are very relevant to probe the physics of particle acceleration in the forward shot, and maybe even in the river shock propagating in the ejecta itself. So, I will finish by your last point to try to keep time for questions and discussion. This is a question of the very high energy emission from short gamma robust. As you know, there is an upper limit for 17 or 17. And on the theoretical point of view. It was not expected to detect the event because it can be shown that the combination of the fact that it's really of axis, and that we are very deep in the climate in a regime shows that the expected flux was very low. Let me show here an example of a simulation which has been done by my PhD student Clement Pelloy. So taking into the full physics of the afterglow including inverse content inclination regime and the full physics of structure jets, which have been revealed by the observation of 17 or 17. And we show that we were two orders of magnitude below the limit by S at the peak. And the same event is observed a little less of axis, typically 10 degrees, we can reach the limit by S. Of course, the peak is much earlier in this case, five days. And what is interesting is that with the sensitivity of CTA it should probably be detectable up to 100 megaparsec or even at a distance. So you see that I should have mentioned that really a tiny China plus, of course, the limit on the acceleration of electrons, limit strongly the emission at high of axis angle and it's much better here. And then there is also a very interesting fact, this is that in the case of 17 or 17, the external density is supposed to be quite low, typically 10 to minus three particles per cubic centimeter. But we know that the afterglow is much brighter if the density is larger. And we know that short gamma-ray burst show afterglow fits, which are better reproduced with high density. We also know that short when the host galaxies detected, which is not so fun. All gamma-ray, all short gamma-ray burst do not show large offset compared to the galaxies, some have a smaller set, so should be associated with denser region. So we can see what becomes a very high energy emission of the afterglow for short gamma-ray burst with a denser environment. So here it's always 17 or 17, but I increase the density of the external medium. And you see that with one particle per cubic centimeter, we reach the current sensitivity. So it's a very interesting channel, because I have also mentioned that some short gamma-ray burst afterglows favor the high density. But more generally, in the discussion about the formation of binary nuisance term merger, there are many discussions about the possibility of having a fast merging channel. This is, for instance, motivated by the early enrichment in air process elements observed in metal pour stars. And so the idea is that this population, if it exists, could be a very important part of the sample of joint gravitational web and electromagnetic detection, and maybe the best one to detect at very high energy. So here again, I have tried to summarize on this slide what some can bring for this sample and what CTA can bring. So again, for the afterglow, the rapid reaction time of CTA is also an advantage, because I didn't have time to mention that, but there are also a lot of theoretical questions about the transition from the prompt to the afterglow emission. And more generally, of course, with the sensitivity of CTA, we should extend the sample of very high energy afterglows and explore the diversity. And again, I know that there is a working group in CTA trying to predict some rates for that. And so I will conclude by saying that we can be quite optimistic about the future and the fact that in 20 after the second part of 2023 or 2024. I really expect some common events detected both by SOM and the CTA. And here, I show a figure provided by Frédéric Piron, where there is a spectrum of 1901-14C observed from low to very high energy. And with the indicated spectral range of SOM instruments and of Fermilat and of the CTA. And of course such an event would be of first interest. And I mentioned also some references if you are interested to learn more about SOM. And I thank you for your attention and I will be happy to discuss and answer questions. Thank you.