you. Hello everybody. If it's Wednesday, it's Warhammer and that must mean it's time for another episode of Warhammer Weekly. Joining me as always is my co-host Tom. He's back again. What's up Tom? Hello friends. I say that because you were here Saturday. Not because you've been here in the normal show for almost a month. But you were here Saturday. Details. As a matter of fact. Also joining us, the whole crew is here. It's Tyler. What's up, buddy? They do both exist. Absolutely. Yeah. I still don't think I'm caught up on Tom covering me, unfortunately. So I probably do still have some. I don't know. Maybe. I think we're caught up. Are we caught up? All right. No, but it's fine. Right off the rip. Welcome everybody. We're going to be talking about the new general's handbook today. If you're excited to get into the details, give that a like. Hit that button there. It's nice. It helps other people find the show right as we kick off. So hit that button. But as always we're going to start off with some news. Tom, what do we got? This is your part where you talk. Yeah, sure. The thing that way before we started, you literally said, it's cool. I've got it open. I'm ready. No. What you don't understand is let's just qualify that what you don't understand is I was actually opening up YouTube so that I could view the comments, but I was making sure it was muted. But in order to do that, I muted myself like I turned off the volume so it wouldn't like pop up when it started like when the clip on it started. And then when I turn when I unmuted everybody was silent and I'm like, I suspect it's news. Good inference. It's a weird twisty mutated arm thing with a post through it. It's upside down or maybe I don't know.  It's not. I know it's not. One heck of a bus. Hmm. You got a weird perception of what butts look like. I don't know what concerns me about what your butt looks like. But the I don't know. It's a weird arm thing. Sure. Why not? Yeah, I don't know. Yes, I don't know what to say about it. It is weird. It's the end of the hand that rocks the cradle or something like where the where somebody falls on a beam.  Yeah. Sure. All right. Cool. What else we got? Um, so we have this weird war cry announcement release yesterday. Crypt of Blood also known as Nefrada Nefrada bust with bonus models with bonus models. Yeah, that's right. That's right. Yeah. I remember Ben Cantor had gone to some great length to sculpt a Nefrada bust. If only he would have known he could have just waited a short amount of time and then had this here. So this is two starter war or two war bands from Underworlds that have already appeared in other products. In fact, if memory serves the storm cast that are here have actually appeared in like two or three other products like they were originally from Harrow Deep, I think. And then they went to the Nether Maze and now they're here in the Narrowwood. These three just boy, I'll tell you, Sigmard used to give these guys some bonus pay. They're getting into all the scrapes. They're just carving their way through skirmishes. Yeah. So this is like a starter mini set of reprint models because it's a war cry. But it's like a small starter set. So let's name that price. What do you think the price is? $80. I don't know. I don't know. I have no clue. I'm not even that familiar with the pricing scheme of this stuff. I'm going to go if I'm not if I'm going to be conservative, I actually think it's going to be $59.95. Wow. Wow. I mean, we can talk about the four pieces of knockoff garden and the more terrain that are in here. Which are like two solid walls and two little fancy walls. You can kind of see them in the picture a little bit. Then you have the crypt the actual crypt crypt of the thing in the front left of the picture. And you have the nephrotobust. Yeah. That's sarcophagus. Yeah. Yeah. Sorry. Yes. That's correct. You're right. I mean, the vampires are obviously cool. They're one of the best underworlds war vans of all time. Yeah. I'm not excited about another box with these dudes. Yeah. But it's a weird war cry box because these are clearly like less less I don't know what to say. This is less than a full war band. Right. Like these guys are part of you could you could previously in the last season take these guys as part of your war band and like you you still had more models. Yeah. So OK, cool. Fine.  This is just the continuation of that journey. Greasy Pan Ham asked if the train was part of the Garden of Morse. It's funny you asked that because we had this conversation before the show started. And in fact, I've spent a lot of hours on Garden of Morse. Sure. And none of the train that's actually in this box is in Garden of Morse. Now, in this image. They are using the Garden of Morse in the background. There is a Garden of Morse in the background. The little like mausoleum in the back, the top left. That is from the Garden of Morse but that's not actually in the box. So the pieces that are coming in the box do not actually have any Garden of Morse in it. They look like they belong in the Garden of Morse but they're not. They're definitely not. They just look like if somebody slightly re-sculpted those basically. Yeah, it's a really curious decision because they have to have the molds for Garden of Morse. And so the question is why did they not just reuse it like they've reused it eight or ten other times already? This is something they're very used to is putting Garden of Morse in everything. Yeah, it's all Jim Crimmins. It is new terrain. I'm just saying it's very, it's not actually the Garden of Morse. The sarcophagus and the nephrotobuster net new. The four walls are new. They don't exist but like you have very similar pieces in the Garden of Morse. Not exactly, but similar. Yeah, I mean all the walls were straight in Garden of Morse. They didn't have this like swoopy up and down Yeah, yeah. to it. I've spent a lot of time painting Garden of Morse and that those pieces are not Garden of Morse. I can assure you. Yeah, so this is neat. I don't hate it. I love the bust. I actually like the sarcophagus a lot. For skirmish games it would make a really interesting objective. Sure. You know, like that's a fun piece I could paint up as an objective. And the same thing for the statue. The walls are fine. It's fine. Again, I'm hoping like my estimate was that this was going to be around 60. If they were wanting to be super aggressive as a starter they would price this around 50. I don't think they will. But if they were being super aggressive that's where they would be. That's the situation. I mean they said very clear it is a small starter set for War Cry. That is what it is labeled as in the article. Now if I want to be cynical it will be 80. Sure. Okay, cool. There we go. What else we got? So we did a preview show on Saturday. We did. I put this on there because obviously we already talked about all of those reveals in the not Warhammer 40,000 show. So I'm not going to cover those again. But Tyler, you didn't get to participate in that show so I wanted to ask you if you had any opinions on anything you saw there. Love the Linus of the I think that's the name. Something like that. Incredible model. The rest of the not doing a whole lot for me personally but others mileage may vary. I actually didn't catch that show. What do you guys think of the rest of the I'll just imagine you both like the Manicor. She's incredible. Yeah. What do you think of the rest of the it's not doing a whole lot for me personally but that's just me. The rest of the COS you guys like any of that stuff for the box that also seemed a little underwhelming. There's no guns. It's just very basic but I'm nitpicking we got rats. But yeah, Tom, what do you think of the COS? I like the cab. Yeah. I do. It's busy but I like it. Yeah, it's a lot going on. Okay, alright. COS is like a six six and a half out of ten for me. The cruel boys are like four out of ten for me and this Gaven Warband was like a nine out of ten. There you go. Brass look good. Yeah, I was happy to see everybody voting in the comments for the review reaction and there was a spread of opinions. The cruel boys occupied every number multiple times in a year even spread from one through ten. I have never seen such a distribution on a release. It was incredible. It's just like if I mapped it it would just be like it would just be like an even plot. You know what I mean? Like no, just be this line of bars. Anyway. There's so much so much extra stuff is on the Manicor itself in terms of trying to use that as a conversion piece. Obviously like cast Sork Lord on Manicor. I mean that is an old kit. So if you could actually make that work with that too much effort, could a dummy like me try to do something with that for slaves and tartans? Yeah, it depends how much the girl is attached to the Manicor. That's what it's all going to come back to. They didn't have a lot of the COS play you know, the cities of Sigmar. Sigmar plating on it like some of the dragons do that sort of thing. Sure.  But sure. Alright, cool. But go back and watch that show if you haven't yet if you've got other thoughts. Alright, cool. Cool. Let's talk some pick of the week. Tyler, what do you want to share with everybody? I just wanted to shout out, so Dave Griffin he posted a tweet photo today of the Chaos Citadel terrain set that he painted out from Dark Fantastic Mills printed out by the one and only Mr. Picastro and it looks amazing and it actually looks like something that again, certain dummies might be able to pull off. It looks like a lot of dry brushing. So what's your guys? Oh gosh, your guys friend name I should know it offhand. We hung out with him at Depticon. Oh, Dan. He's awesome. Dan, yeah. Dan and his slaves of darkness terrain it up for Depticon was it kind of felt like that style. Sure. But yeah, I just wanted to give that a shout out. So the if anybody missed it, the Chaos Citadel terrain was a Kickstarter no longer but it is now on Dark Fantastic Mills website. It's just, yeah, amazing terrain. And he launched it this week on his on his website. So that's all I got. Very nice. Tom, what do you want to share with everybody? While he's clearly taking a break I also want to spruke Ninjohn's video from like a week and a half two weeks ago about like his reflections on speed painting. Yep. He shares a lot of kind of sentiments that I have also kind of like come to as I I've worked with the various speed painting systems trying to find something that like works for me and I'm just, you know, I'm just struggling. So like, yeah, there are strengths to all of it, of course, but but, yeah, so check it out. No, it's a great recommendation. I very much enjoyed that video. My shout out is going to be for Hey Will Plus, the subscription service that cost you nothing. And that is to say if you want to see some additional reactions to the Warhammer reveal Hey Will Plus, of course, the massive industries behind that got the upload for the Hey Will Reveal reaction uploaded on to Hey Will Plus from his Twitch. And it's a great time. I would recommend 10 out of 10 as always. The man is never better than when he's reacting to things. I mean, Hey Will is a talented and gifted individual, but when he's giving, he gives good reaction. So it's worth a watch. Okay. All those are or will be linked down below. All right. Gentlemen, let's talk about some hobby time. Tyler, you've been working on buddy after our hobby show last week inspired.  I'm so glad we did that. Yeah. It was a blast. I learned a lot from that show. I got to go back and listen to it again and take extensive notes and have all of the references that were mentioned. Amazing show. It was really cool to see a lot of the comments too. How much a lot of people got out of that show. We got to do that more often. Absolutely. So I played two games of the new HB. So those were fun. Get into those later. And I've been still assembling battle systems terrain because it is a real problem that they don't have actual assembly instructions. And my God is it because I'm having to pause the videos and let go 0.25 speed to follow along because they do these cuts where they like speed forward. Yeah. It's other than that, I'm in love with this cardboard terrain set that they put together. But the lack of instructions is a bit of a nightmare. Yes.  So which one you said battle systems is what you were building? Yeah, man. Ever seen any of their stuff? Battle systems.co.uk, I think. It's quite nice. It's just, yeah. They're very aware. You look at their videos and the comments are just full of people like, yeah, we really need some actual better videos or instructions for this stuff. But yeah, it's good product. Yeah. Well, I found myself doing the same this week. No, really? But not with that company. I picked up the Starter for Star Wars Shatterpoint, which is 16 or so models of your favorite Clone Wars characters along with like just a metric like ton of plastic terrain. So it's got a lot of time built in terrain this week. That's all in 40 millimeter, right? Yeah, just a slightly larger. Yeah. It sounds about right. Yeah. Cool. Nice. Nice. I'll be interested to hear your feedback on what you think once you get some real reps in under the belt. Yeah. I mean, what I'll say is this, I'm looking forward to painting the models. The models are, they were a pain to put together, but they're beautiful. So it'll be fun to kind of to give it a shot. So I've been looking for a skirmish game that I can really get into and that the kids can really get into. And hoping that this might be it. Well, it has been a productive hobby week for me. Let me tell you what, I was inspired after last week's show so many things happening. So first of all, I got Commander Farsight, I think is his name, this guy. So he's all done. He's got his neon pink. Speaking on the towel thing, I also now assembling the, what is it? The mostly the boarding patrol. And now I'm assembling the combat patrol, like most of the whatever the names are. I don't know, man, but I assembled the stealth suits and one of the heroes and I put this guy together, which is, I think, the ghost or whatever. Man, this thing is so cool. It's like the coolest robot. Like I had looked at these guys in pictures and they I was like, yeah, they're okay. And then I put him together and he's really fun to put together. I really like the design on these guys. And I just think this is like one of the coolest looking robots. I got to get some more big towel robots, like the real big ones, because I just think these are just super sweet. I love I mean, everybody who watched the show knows I have a deep and abiding love for robots and the towel robots are hitting the spot. So I got those. Oh, good. KO, KO towel. Can you somehow manage to make that work? I don't think that's going to fit. No, that's good. No, these are just for 40K and I'm okay with it. I also finished up a display piece, which is this girl.  So got her all all painted and ready to go. As you can see, we made a little nice, you know, flowing lava base there for and stuff like that. And she's coming up and born out of the fire. So didn't record anything on this one. This one was kind of just for me. To be honest, I was really just focusing in on skin and like really, really, really focusing in on getting this skin in a place where I wanted to be there. We'll get as close as I can. There you go. Pretty sweet. So Is that Lilliana? What's what? Is that Lilliana? No, the actual piece. Oh yeah, it's a good thing. I should say what it actually is. So this is called Night of the Zombie. It's officially licensed from Patrick J. Jones and it's from Mindwork Games. Mindwork Games makes really excellent display figures. Couldn't recommend them enough. They're awesome. I painted another thing from them. It was actually like a water themed piece. That's where the cloaks video that I uploaded this last week came from. That's also from Mindwork Games. So did all that and then as well as well. That's right. We're not done yet, folks. Mr. Bookaster, you mentioned him earlier. He had back this Kickstarter full of like these display figures and I didn't realize how big they were. But I started working on this girl just doing some initial sketches. This is Commander Farsight. It's her. Oh my gosh. So she's in like 90 millimeter scale and he sent them all to me. That was very nice of him to print those out and send them to me. These are just kind of fun things I'm messing with. But yeah, this is all she's just, like I said, this is just initial doing some light sketches and studies and stuff like that.  Very precious. My wife fell in love with this one and wanted me to paint this one for her. So that's what I'm gonna do pretty much that that simple. And I think that's finally all the hobby. Now that was in addition to everything else, of course. I had to get Kathy to figure out a model that she once painted that she could give to me. So I can't think more about that. Yeah. That's also in addition to working on more stuff. Of course snarling badger, working on our next game and a whole bunch of other stuff going on and getting everything ready for our as Tom mentioned, I don't know if you've mentioned this before, we went live or whatever. Getting everything ready for a D&D marathon this weekend. So I won't have much chance to hobby basically until we do this show next week. So I'm getting it all in now. But it's been a busy, busy, busy week. I actually had a nice couple days, had the holiday and I got to spend a lot of it hobbying. So I just, you know, went to work. It was great. All right. Cool. With that gentlemen, are you ready to talk about the G, the H and the B the general GBH. We've talked about this. You said it wrong. GBH. Thank you. General's book hand? That's a very niche AOS coach reference. It's fine. I miss that. So Anthony said he didn't expect any of those to be out of the box for a long time if ever. They're all assembled. They're all in my shelf. As soon as I was looking at it, my wife came down and she was like, I really like that one. You should paint that one for me. Guess that project order is decided. All right. Let's talk about the general's handbook. Okay. Before I even get to the overview slide, let's just start with some key words. Okay. Magic. Anti-magic. 12 months season. All new battle plans. All new battle tactics. Same basic battle pack. I.E. the corbels. Okay. There we go. That's my, those are my sort of keywords, right, that I would say. How long does it last? The full 12 months. Everything else is new in the actual functional stuff. And it's a magic versus anti-magic season. Yup. Okay. I hope you're happy. You got your way. 12 months. Magic. And the monkeys paw curls. Yes. Absolutely. All right. Cool. Let's talk overview. As I said, this is a magic focus season. The focus is on, you know, magic and anti-magic as always. As with most of these seasons, which side wins is where I guess is left to be seen and can shift over time. My initial money is on anti-magic. I'm going to be honest with you. Okay. But we'll see. We'll see. Just as with the last two seasons, there are armies that are going to be left out in the cold here. Like not everybody gets to play in this pool equally. As long as we keep this up, we're going to keep just having armies that just basically are slightly garbage in the current season because they just don't have the right rules to play in this kind of pool. And some of these spells, like the new spells, are really, really big. When we, the spells, I'm going to say it this way, Tyler. I'm going to see what you think about this hot take. You ready? You ready? Okay. The spells are the bounty hunters of this season. Thoughts. I I, well, maybe once, but yeah. Probably closer to true than not true. I don't think we're going to work. We're not full on bounty hunters, but closer to true than not true. Yes. It's not a one to one because like you take bounty hunters, it's not much you can do to counter that out of your list building phase, right?  Whereas the spells, obviously spells are that. One thing I'll say here is Matt, the reason I'm not excited about this season, I'm going to be straight up with everybody. I actually think there's a lot of good stuff in this season, but I'm not excited about this season as a whole. And the reason for that is very simple. I don't think magic in AOS is a very good system. I think it's the swingiest, most unevenly distributed system across the game that is the like, it's the highest impact, most unevenly distributed thing. And you say more, hold on. Would you say more so than battle tome battle tactics? Yes, because it's much more impactful. And but if you're using those, they are more unevenly distributed of haves and have nots. I think they're at least as equally distributed. If not still, if not not as bad. There are, there are like the best battle tome DOM battle, battle tome battle tactic DOM dunks two for free. Maybe two and a half free. Right. Okay. Right. The best spell DOM casts every spell and does not get stopped outside of auto dispel. Right. But that doesn't determine the game. Like what would it like, like, I've watched Kayla plays each. I disagree. No, no, I understand that. But what I'm saying is that magic can also, I don't know, like I would push back about it. You would say magic can also do absolutely nothing? Is that what you're going to say? I completely agree. That's why I said it's a completely swingy, ridiculous system.  Your magic is incredibly reliable by the standards of your system. It moves into the bounds of like attacking on twos and threes. You don't hit every time attacking on twos and threes, but you're reliable enough. Yes. Okay. But everybody else, magic is just like an all over the board system. You could have like, I've had whole games of just average magic armies where I just don't cast a spell, not because everybody unbinds it, but because I'm like, need a six, got a four, need a five, got a two, miscast. Great. Okay. My magic's done. Right. And then next round, I'm like, fail. And then I get one off there, like they roll and they unbind it. I'm like, cool. Two rounds down, no spells. Right. That's a very common experience. Right. Yeah. Right. So what I'm saying is the reason this is a foundation of sand we have decided to build an entire season. A year long. That's my argument. Yes. Now, that doesn't mean I think it's bad. I actually think there's, as I said, I want everybody to hear me really clearly. I think there's a lot of good stuff in this season. We'll talk about it as we go through it. But this castle is built on sand and the ground underneath it will shift a lot. That is what I will say. Okay. All right. So those, that's my quick overview. Tyler, what's your what's your initial 40,000 foot view?  Well, okay. So you, I'm not watching this stream. Do you have a slide up? Do you have the overview slide up? I have the overview slide up. Okay. Right. So you've got here as with mostly season which side wins as let me see and it can shift over time. My money is on anti-magic. Before I say anything, you haven't really said anything about why your money is on anti-magic and what you mean by that. Could you clarify that? Yeah, it's more generically good. There are really powerful anti-magic factions in it shuts down the spell person who can like dunk with the new spells just blows through four opponents and hits the hard anti-magic and loses almost instantly like the game suddenly flips to them being like 30% chance to win like all else being. By anti-magic, are you talking about armies that have like negation on a five plus or what are you, how are you specifically corn the the we're magic proof OBR that's really the big one like the we're magic proof OBR just knocking down attack spells on a two up is like pretty darn good but like corn especially has lots of good abilities to interact with magic in negative ways skulls they have auto unbind they're highly resistant to magic and it feeds their blood type like there's a lot of like corn has a lot of powerful tech OBR has a lot of powerful tech and then you still have the problem of if you run into other spell don't who might outdo you you're rolling hot until you get into the seraphon guy who's even better than you right so like you can get it from both sides people can run to your left or your right and and beat you on your strat is my point yeah my pushback would be I think that there may be play an augment like augmentation magic which will basically completely ignore the OBR like stuff so I think about those that are playing in the spaces of like self nothing even like for us even even that one we're going to talk about the best self buff in the game yeah sure right like you can turn that on yourselves and that kind of anti-magic doesn't play well like corn still plays well but like the OBR super negation doesn't do anything sure I mean a bunch of stormcast dragons with two knighting cantors seems like a pretty good seems like a pretty good list four up spell ignore on your whole army and two auto dispells in general yeah two knighting cantors plus the antorian acolytes battalion probably is is pretty interesting to order in general as an allies option so so overall I want to get ahead of ourselves yeah absolutely that's why my money's on anti-magic to actually win out of the end okay so I mean that's broadly defining anti-magic is where broadly defined anti-magic winning out is where or certainly being elevated is where my mind is at and that's been my experience at least so far it's only two games but that was my read and that has been my experience so far in two games one pure null stone adornments no wizards the other a knighting cantor and a lore arcana on griff charger against zinch with a pretty good zinch list and so there's a lot of nuance to that which don't necessarily need to get into right now because it involves like getting into the details right so I can sit on that but I think the as usual political economy terms the the class curve here is going to be a little more flat and so there will be a little more equity in the ecosystem a little less inequality I can see an argument in some ways the rich get richer but in general I do think the inequality will lessen the middle class will get stronger and completely disagree this is a this is full on feeding money to the billionaires like this is a hundred percent the rich get richer as I say right here in the text if you're picturing you doing this stuff okay like oh look at these sweet spells I'm going to do them no no no no I'm talking about unbinding unbinding I'm specifically thinking about unbinding for the equity of unbinding sure we'll talk about that when you get to PMD I think unbinding is the interesting part and a lot of I think of inequity of equity increasing in the ecosystem is only unbinding side yeah that's probably enough for now another reason why I think anti-magic is going to win out because in the end you're way more incentivized to use them for unbinding than you are for casting but anyways go ahead Tom I don't want to jump all over your thoughts no no I mean I think that like I just I think that I would agree that your spell bombs are going to take over like you're you're they're just going to get those in the middle class are just going to get dunked on yeah because of those because of because they are fighting a battle on two ends they're fighting a battle against the anti-magics on one side and against the spell bombs on the other yeah yeah sure completely dunked on like your magic is your if you're a middle class magic army like maybe you got one one guy or girl with a plus one to cast it magic isn't a thing for you this season that's over turn that off that doesn't count anymore you don't do that yep well I don't know again I don't know I mean to me you're making two arguments you're talking about the swinginess that is so inherent to the system while also I'm hearing you convey like a sense of highly deterministic outcomes and what is going to happen don't get me wrong I am using hyperbole I'm not going to lie like I'm talking about it like it's a foregone conclusion but what I mean is like the number of spells you will get off per game will drop dramatically percentage wise period if you're in the middle class like it will drop like a rock will you still occasionally cast spells sure when you have two middle class when the middle class fights itself as it were right then yeah it's going to be an interesting game with like where the PMDs actually do something but the second but like the number of anti-magic number of people playing anti-magic will go up so hence that's just going to increase in the ecosystem so you will run to that and it will shut you off the number of spelldoms will increase because they want to use their strat and they will shut you off so both of your natural enemies who are going to stop you from doing oh my god Tom turn off everything that dings shut off your other crap how hard is it I don't know what you're talking about turn off your phone turn off your other apps I swear to Jesus I don't think it's me it's great prank Tom it is most definitely you okay I don't know what you're talking about so that's my point if you have like a good old fashioned iron jaws on nergal fight it's going to be interesting time with PMD that's going to be a fun game sure that's going to be people using primal magic dice and just going nuts and having a weird old wacky time but that is not going to be the norm as it were okay alright let's get into the details because we keep talking details but we're not there let's actually explain to everybody what we're talking about here Rocky says it was his phone darn it Rocky see it wasn't me it wasn't me I'm going to shaggy it arrested at the Waffle House said more dings louder dings I veto arrested at the Waffle House's boat despite how good his name is as I've said many times the absolute best name on youtube right there dude if you ever actually make a channel or if you have a channel you need to tell me because I'm going to subscribe immediately I don't want to talk about anything about the Waffle House alright basic battle pack rules the same i.e. like points required units allowed units all that reinforcement points yada yada all that crap is the same cool we can move fast then alright wizard heroes with a wounds characteristic of nine or less that are not unique become an andtorian locus oh boy do we have to make these words for down is that just the example every time okay so they become an ale they become an andy andy's I'm going to call them andy's there we go they become an andy so remember andy's can't be unique can't have more than nine wounds you guys have andy's in Ohio frozen custard andy's frozen custard no no we were dominated here in Ohio by a thing called wits okay alright quit with an H okay optimal focus at the start of the battle round after priority is determined the player taking the second turn can pick one friendly hero on the battlefield if it's an andy you get to attempt to cast one extra spell and unbind an extra spell in that battle round if they're not an andy you get a command point that can only be spent to allow that hero to issue a command okay so here we have our first incentive for going second I'm going to I want to put a pin in that for now we're just going to pin that right up here in the corner I want everybody to just picture a little thing that says this is a pretty decent bonus for going second when we get to the battle plans later this is going to become relevant mm-hmm okay alright so that's the basics of like the basic realm rules mm-hmm uh let's talk about who our winners and losers are potentially potentially okay so I've got some potential winners and losers here I added this slide since I sent this to you guys so okay uh that's what I do okay potential winners and potential losers potential he can cast on 3d6 it's pretty easy for him to actually get like bonuses to cast uh in various and sundry different ways um that's pretty great and uh yeah he's he's a good dude like he can cast on 3d6 I don't know what else to say so you know it's good anybody who can cast on 3d6 I couldn't find a picture to represent cabalists but you can just figure that they're in there too the logo no one would know what the logo is for them but cabalists 3d6 wizards of which here I'm using the grace here uh the blue scribes oh boy the blue scribes who can once around just be like uh cast a spell on a two up now they are uh blue scribes are hold on are they yeah because they're are they unique I couldn't remember they are yeah they're unique so they're not an andy but they can cast a spell on a two up great as part of an overall strat so they're not going to be your andy okay right but they're a great piece the reason I still think they're a winner let me explain because they're not an andy I was like ninety nine percent sure they were unique when I put them in here is because people are going to have a bunch of auto unbinds yeah correct correct okay and and they can push through your one spell correct because it can't be unbound so like what I'm using for them is I'm using them to force through like the zinch spell I want okay and then I don't have to worry about my opponent using primal magic dice to try to unbind right with me now because specifically when they do this on a two up it can't it can't be unbound unless they unbind target impossible it says it cannot be unbound so yeah that's why I think they're really strong right so things that both either cast real high or things that just cast on a number and hence ignore uh primal magic dice being more potent and unbinding okay right okay cool we all understand there um alright uh no I'm not picking hollow heart because I don't know what hollow heart does like hollow heart will have a new book in five seconds so I mean like I hollow heart's not a real thing right like almost no one's playing cities and cities won't have its existing rules for more than you know another almost nothing as far as time goes um because I would expect that book will be out in like the but the I would expect that box to release in like August probably so I mean you know you'll have like four to six weeks so it just doesn't count um um the knight and cantor uh who is an Andy for their own casts but also has an auto unbind they can come with a dispel scroll so that's pretty good um again like you know what shuts off somebody using a ton of primal magic dice to get a really high number as long as they don't roll two sixes we'll talk about primal magic dice in a moment with heck I'm even talking about somebody who auto unbinds so yep there you go and then also like the lord arcana on grip charger this season a lot specifically in relation to the grand strategy keep a wizard alive he's got a built-in teleport eight wounds three of save uh nice spell healing spell just yeah I think it it's a nice option for storm cast of my mind and also an Andy does not fit in the battalion the acolytes battalion but can have everything sure and then the salon I mean the salon is like an absolute wrecking ball house in this season my god that fat frog like if there was ever a season meant for him he is domination you know I see a lot of people talking about like the power of say plus two to unbinders or something like that or plus one to unbinders I don't think that's anything I really don't I don't think that matters for anything primal magic dice will will when they're used be pushing your number your cast number up by an average of three for every die right so like unless your bonus unbind is absolutely massive right then it's not doing enough work for me because because all of the casters who are going to dominate are going to be casting on either way more dice or having giant bonuses right or or both yep so just like being a cool dude with a plus two to unbind like that's neat trick you might be good for normal spells you're not going to do anything against the actual people against the spells are trying to power out okay yeah I'll wait until we do go through the primal dice in terms of yeah giving potential losers of the end of the andy fight fire slayers I'm using them here kind of to represent just armies that don't really have wizards like of which there are a couple I mean so aren't really playing here that doesn't necessarily make them a true loser like I said if the anti magic wins and and hey I guess that age of that they still have that spell banner that's like a four up spell ignore right that still exists they do they do uh yes uh no the Hades the wizard can be mounted it's they can it's just nine wounds or less can't be unique they can have a mount they can be on a bird or a dog or a something so there you go yes we are still anger Eric daddy uh and then I have the I have the iron jaws here but I I again they're standing in to represent armies that just have like yeah completely average nothing special casters right like you've got a wizard they don't really have any you've got some wizards they don't really have bonuses to cast like I could use daughters a cane I could have you I could have docked in that same position doc night haunt like all of them have spells that they want to get off and none of them are going to get off spells this season right right exactly like forget all of that that's that's done you don't cast magic anymore right yep so like nope and then sons of Bama who just are again not play who have like don't even qualify in any way because of the nature of their army so it's just like whatever you it's not I do not have any locusts you don't have the ability to really get at them outside of anything really that's that's that's basically it um and you know some of these spells are just gonna absolutely be incredibly impactful to you like I don't like sons you just get you just get dunked on so hard by people take leaning heavily into this magic that's in this season um a lot um now sons will still have oh sure Kelly Kelly says I counting sons they appear to just ignore GHB and get a 50% win rate yeah sure which will probably persist because it's really easy for sons to constantly be between two three and three two hence a 50% win rate because they win by just standing there they're not good games they're not fun games that player doesn't kill anything or do anything it's just they get too easy wins because they walk up stand on whatever the scenarios are where they can just stand there and win and then they stand there and win until they die and that's it what a what a great time right um like that doesn't make their army not incredibly painful and awful experience to play in this time so there you go on again like fire slayers what does the ash cloud rune do Tom ash cloud rune I don't know it's been a long time since I played uh okay fair enough okay uh well anyway I mean my sense of them is that they're in that maybe I missed it I was just trying to research cool things uh they're in that category of again if they really need the extra anti-magic two encounters and an acolytes battalion there you go like and and they already have as far as I know they have a number of existing ways they have some they have some decent anti-magic tech built into them I wouldn't call it like they're not corn they're not you know OBR or whatever but there are no myriad OBR but they're they've got stuff they've got yeah so have a have a hard time seeing them in the losers category depending I may miss how exactly you were to find that but I mean potential losers so the the ash cloud uh it's a once per battle in the enemy hero phase and when you trigger it you did totally within 12 of the bearer are not visible to enemy it's uh attempting to cast spells so basically shuts them off as potential targets for one round from enemy outcasters within 12 or you could just play in one of the battle plans um uh okay yeah I mean my so my thing with fire slayers is like all the rest of this is I don't know how it'll shake out like if anti-magic wins and rules a day and and really like and he's aren't doing anything or going anywhere not really seen then fire slayers will be fine right or or if there is not enough of it there that their anti-magic tech can hold them they'll be fine right as you mentioned so but I was more using them as a stand-in for like people who just don't really have wizards or you have to ally them in and stuff like that you know that's that's kind of less appealing for how much you get to play in this season as an Andy right okay all right cool these are your potential winners and losers of the Andy world but let's talk about these primal magic dice because this is really the story this is this is where it is okay several things I want to talk about here let's go through the rules first at the start of the hero phase both hero phases that is to say like it's one twice per battle round both players roll a dice that doesn't actually matter it's just two dice need to be rolled anybody could roll it your friend could walk up to the table and roll two dice it's literally completely irrelevant what human being rolls the dice for each four plus okay each player receives one primal magic dice so as distributed they are distributed equitably so if both players roll a four both players get two primal magic dice if one player rolls a four and one player rolls a one both players get one primal magic dice and so on I assume we can all trace out the third fact pattern here okay all right after a player attempts to cast or unmind a spell or after a player attempts to dispel an endless spell they can roll one of their primal magic dice if they do so add the result to the casting unbinding or dispelling roll that player can continue to roll additional primal magic dice until the caster suffers a primal miscast i.e. has two ones showing anywhere on all the dice they rolled or there are no more primal magic dice to be rolled abilities that allow you to re-roll casting unbinding or dispelling rolls must be used before primal magic dice are rolled and if you re-roll your casting you can't use primal magic dice so people like the contorted epitome or master of magic type of stuff all that kind of thing it's a non-bow with your PMD doesn't mean those abilities aren't good you're not going to use PMDs on everything and I imagine people will still have master of magic and re-rolling type stuff they'll just use it for their other spells and they won't re-roll when they want to use their PMD like it's pretty simple if you primal miscast i.e. if your casting roll includes a double one the caster suffers a primal miscast which is d3 plus 3 mortal wounds and everybody within 3 inches of them takes d3 mortals when you get double sixes anywhere the spell is successfully cast and can that be unbound in both cases you don't get to cast any more spells in that phase however if you do primal cast if you, you know, irresistible force or whatever we're going to call it both players do receive a primal magic dice so basically the the kitty refills yes, PMD is primal magic dice yes okay them's the basics now let's talk about implications boys this is what we've been waiting on first of all I believe these will I believe in my heart of hearts these will be FAQ to just be a modifier to your spell cast not part of your spell casting roll total there are way too many spells that will be you will go wonky if this is generating your casting roll oh yeah so like checklist there's a ton, yeah there's a lot, like it goes on and on we could start and just not name them for the next 5 minutes so like for the sanity of the game these will just be FAQ to be a modifier to your cast I'm sure yeah alright let's talk implications Tyler what's the initial implications that jumped into your head yeah so like I said looking at this as written I think it does have more differential advantage for unbinding than casting how much I don't know but some amount there's various factors to that so if you're an unbinder you get full information right they they're doing their casting okay you get a 7 they have to decide a 3 and a 4 they decide am I going to use a primal dice then they stop you get full information there's a more inherent disadvantage or risk opportunity cost with casting where you don't care about if you roll a 1 or a 6 for that matter when you're unbinding but you do of course when you're casting right especially a 1 inherently is a rate limiter on the use of primal dice as a caster not so on an unbinding those are just a couple of initial things that really stood out in my mind the you're going second in the battle round touch that pin up here you already have an advantage because of the thing we talked about before there's going to be a lot of advantages in battle plans as well you now know the total number of primal dice that exist in the world okay and so at the start of the hero phase you generate these dice right also at the start of the hero phase you dispel endless spells okay you can use these on dispelling endless spells yeah okay and so like we talked about endless spells this week because we don't have the points for the endless spells they have new rules and stuff but without the points it's completely irrelevant you might say it's a point less conversation but we'll talk about them once we have points and stuff which I assume will come basically with the official launch of the book and all that yeah but I don't know how one of the spells actually ever get used because if I'm going second like the incentives to go second are just stacking and stacking and stacking because if I'm at the bottom of the round every round not only do I get to just get the extra Benny from the the thing above like an extra cast or unbind or whatever right or an extra command point if I just want that I have a bunch of bonuses in the battle plans and I can now know like my opponent is not casting any more spells this round right it's my turn sure yeah so like if I don't have a distinct plan to use primal dice to cast then I'll just blow all your endless spells on the table easy peasy almost automatically because endless spells just like with their cast numbers like we were relying on the fact that you're generally rolling 2d6 against their number to get them off the board which is like sometimes hard when they're a 7 or an 8 to cast or something when I get 3d6 or 4d6 against your endless spells like they're gone instantly so yeah I mean the devil's in the details on that which we'll get into endless spells we'll have a better understanding of all this but broadly defined there are a number of endless spells that have been boosted in very meaningful ways that can have their impact regardless of whether that can have their impact as long as they get one turn to be on the board and do their thing new geminids pendulum running you know hero phase teleports are going to be a thing potentially this season right if you have some way hero phase teleport if you're going second especially you can do 2 spells if you just have a base 1 you could do like right the skink stars here could if the hero the heroic action teleport is a thing we'll see tomorrow presumably whether that's still a thing or not but right now you could if I understand it heroic action that guy teleport him pop celestial doom take away a ward and then pop pendulum or whatever it might be to do so anyway I think there are a number of examples like that where you can have real meaningful impact regardless of whether they get dispelled in the next turn a fair point but nonetheless you have to agree with me that this says the spells don't stay on the board for more than like your turn where you cast them I think that's generally fair yeah okay well not only that like heaven forbid that they are on the board because if they're predatory they may still eat like a sever or whatever though the new spell is that makes them so that they're uncontrollable and also battle tactic nonsense like I just I really think endless spells are such a massive risk to use in this season I really do we'll talk about as we keep going but yeah like in my mind okay what this makes me what this season so far and like reading so far like if I was approaching this the first time and I read up to this point right in my head the logical incentive that I'm that I'm that I'm gonna respond with is I don't want to play I want to play an army that has some good anti-magic options and I don't want to worry about casters at all and all these dice are just free things to shut off their best tricks and if I can back in an auto dispel into my list as well a plus I'm good to go like the aforementioned dragons double knighting cantor list I'm just like yes this is perfect this is exactly what I want right because then the dice are all upside to me I either don't care about them if we get none or they're pure Benny if I get some I can use them to shut off all my opponents best tricks I don't need them at all I'm not relying on right and I have a bunch of built-in defenses against their best tricks like this is one of the reasons I'm saying anti-magic because the incentive so much user to use this as unbind right yeah then there the start you were saying that you thought you asked me what do I think about the idea of that the spells specifically the realm spells which only available to Antorians are going to be the bounty hunters or the proxman proxmation bounty hunters okay so how how is that squaring I mean maybe one I just said because I was talking about what I like to play not what other people like to play and I don't generally like to play spelldom armies like I think spelldoms using those things will be will make people feel like holy crap I just got punched in the face hard that's what's going to happen that's why I'm saying that again it's not you're right it's a closer to than one than the other thing I'm not trying to make a full on comparison I'm saying it's it feels closer to that than the other way around yeah okay so one memory real quickly one mini game that I've noticed in terms of the like the if then conditions if then than this and that in the first two games so far has been so first game against each I was always going second just for the sake of going second to get the benefit regardless of board stay going second okay so I could get up to four unbinds with two single unbind casters and in cantor and a and a griff charger or kingdom of griff charger right so I do going second and I do heracle power with a bandit or somebody else somebody here right okay so I've got four I did not have the acolyte the anterior and acolyte battalion would like to get that in the list I think that's going to be very prominent we'll come to that that's that's very meaningful as sort of a sheer phase you can get on a three up you can get an additional one if you have two of your acolytes to Andes on the battlefield okay so against the inch what I was finding the mini game was essentially alright I've got two options I can either focus on the zinc spells that my opponent's not using primal dice on and then I primal dice against them to improve my chances of getting rid of them right or I do what my opponent is doing which is probably saving their primal dice or like their big hiro spell through the spell portal or like their key spell that they're really trying to get off so I could play that game and then it's like a game of whose primal dice is going to win out plus any bonuses or whatever and I'm at a differential disadvantage against the inch because they're Matt you know Kyra sort of change they're matching the dice so that's less but that was the immediate mini game that I noticed in terms of playing it which is partly what made me think that okay there's some meaningful lessening of inequality in the game because I've at least got more ways now to get rid of some spells not all spells not necessarily the biggest spell because that's not necessarily the most attractive but some spells perhaps I mean I think in that kind which is again part of like the I like I said my money's on anti-magic winning out right and why ultimately I think this might actually end up being a bad season for the casters like like it which would be in line with every other season we've seen the infantry season is bad for infantry the monster season was bad for monsters like it happens every time so wouldn't be weird but like if you if the logical incentive is I use the primal magic dice to basically unbind everything they don't use dice or don't blow out their roll on right because it seems just casting with a bonus right right right so the question is how effective can I be doing that and how much do they still like how much do the spells they can still force through impact of the game right like do they need those other dice if they're making 10 spell cast a turn right well you ain't shutting off that many right sure so like is that I don't disagree with your statement I just wanted to like the question just becomes how much of an impact is that it's just I'm right I'm just referring to the prior baseline which Tom said at the top we were living in an era of true spell bombs and and everybody else and like in that situation I would have had much less chance in general to compete against their magic whereas now you've got more tools to at least curtail the curtail a little bit what they're doing I'll give you a maybe okay alright yeah Tom what about you no I would agree with that okay are there any other like natural what do I want to say secondary consequences we want to think about here with primal magic dice at this stage well we've I mentioned hero phase teleport and I mean I'm not sure that's exactly what you're going for but there's certainly a lot to be said in my mind about any army that can do hero phase teleports right especially going second and if you've got ways of getting more advantage in casting so Skaven was the first one that came to my mind because of the way as I understand it skiddley you know grace here right skiddley 3d6 cast potential primal magic at field they could then use the gnaw hold to get out of dodge with the current rules as written they don't even have to expose themselves okay so okay like you cannot do that with the lord arcane among grift charger as written it's like a little fact that I think a lot of people miss for what it's worth like the play would be translocate the lord lord arcane on grift charger you're going second he blasts like merciless blizzard and a pendulum or something just right in front of the enemy and then he gets out of dodge with right winds of theory that's not possible according to this fact is my understanding of it thankfully because that's kind of silly but yeah there are a number of wizards that I think could do that that that could be a real challenge I mean especially if you get out of dodge again unless the anti magic is the very strong in which case the risk it for the biscuit play there doesn't really do anything right like you roll up you try to wombo combo they just use their dice to stop it and then you leave and it's like no I mean like I think about them rolling up on like the storm cast double it can't or right it's that in canvas to be like not dog sure exactly you're not you're not teleporting like that's not we're not playing that game here right like just shut off the teleport or shut up I mean I don't know man I don't I don't counter the tutor I counter this I counter the thing they tutor for make them waste multiple resources but sure right yeah they can have the teleport they just don't get anything at the end of it they spent a lot of time making a rat go from here to here and then back to here like I don't know good job I mean secondary consequence again I know this is exactly what you're going for but in my mind there's an obvious potential problem with I mean this isn't anything crazy the war song revenant I've already seen it in a season war battle report where if you know it can pop off in a huge way potentially I think Jordan had a 22 26 hitting multiple units every five up is mortal wounds I mean that doesn't seem great for the game so like anything that can potentially go off and I mean to me it's like a the truck bomb right now that's obviously hopefully going to get addressed tomorrow whenever we see the battle scroll there's a relatively small number things like that just it's the potential for it for it's such an extreme not that it will always have but but it just seems like a terrible reality living that you can have such an extreme potential be on the board in the first place as a sure that like Skragrod is probably another one in terms of what he could do with primal guys the unmodified casting rule oh that's I guess yeah actually if you if you make yeah I think that's right I'd have to double check if he is but I don't think the war song revenant is right now so even if it's rolled as a as a modifier I think it would still go off right now on the war song revenants bomb I haven't played so nothing forever you know somebody plays so nothing can double check that but but yeah martin marty just mentioned lore seeker great delivery vehicle for blizzard teleporting three away and cast on 3d6 plus 2 that's kind of interesting yeah I mean but again like at the end of the day 3d6 plus 2 against a lot of armies they're just going to say no to that sure but like yeah how this is going to be part of the swing people are going to push into this like let me try to this is the secondary and tertiary consequences right this is exactly what I'm trying to map out because okay so people push hard into like can I well we'll talk about the spells in a minute but can I do a big mortal wound bomb right can I teleport up and do a big mortal wound bomb and then time magic rises and these two this irresistible force meets this immovable object who surrenders right yeah I think we're all three aligned around this is very likely to be the overall outcome I've already noticed it in my list building and like in thinking through some list it's like when you get into battalions like with the end we'll go into battalions but it's like it suddenly creates some interesting things in terms of drop count and number of heroes that you need to have like if you want to go acolytes to the Lord to get the extra enhancement well now you're suddenly at five heroes and that potentially imbalances your list in the number of armies you don't have enough troops and then but yeah it's just it's felt off when I've leaned too far into magic in a number of my lists so far because of the expectation of a certain level of anti-magic in response to the obvious play and that's where stuff that where you can just like ignore spells on an X or whatever whatever or cause penalties to cast or where like you don't have to use an active resource to do it becomes highly more valuable right that's what separates the anti-spell doms from the like the great ones from the average ones right when you can have stuff that's just like there and functioning as opposed to you needing to blow the resource of an auto-unbind like the auto-unbind will stop the mortal wounds bomb but it doesn't stop the other eight spells they wanted to get off right but if you have like multiple things making them do hurt their casting in some way then now you're you're just effectively penalizing them all over the place and they're failing left and right right okay so DrewBishopSci says allario can use primal dice too which I hope we address the god units that are non-andies shouldn't get to use primal dice thoughts I mean anybody can it's not it's not a caster it's the player doing it like anybody can any spell cast or unbind or dispel can use primal dice it has nothing to do with the caster you choose it is a player attempting it and they can the player chooses to use the stuff so I mean there you go then Drew, I tested primal dice for the war song the other day I dealt 57 mortal wounds in the casting phase in a single turn yeah that seems probably a little bit off yeah I mean I like my money would be something like that gets addressed I mean sure yeah like I don't think they're gonna just let a thing like that float around so alright one would hope not they generally get pretty good at finding these sorts of things um yeah so like okay I want to pause here before we go to the next section start talking about the details to just make this following point man this is the best narrative uh book I've read in a long time and then like I want to do the joke where I like somebody comes and whispers in my ear and I'm like what's that this is the normal event book oh that seems weird okay because like these feel like what we should be doing for the next season of war whatever yeah like weird narrative like battle packs yeah like this feels so much heavier than what I need for a season of war hammer to play at events or the generals handbook or whatever right like your general match to play battle pack we've got to screw with the base rules of the game this much like I don't know man like it I appreciate like if you rocked up and told me this was the cool narrative thing you could do where you played in the wizard place and did wizard stuff I'd be like yeah okay great cool I'm good with it what an awesome and unique interesting uh narrative battle pack I just have no clue what all this stuff is doing in a in a in the matched place standardized battle pack do we need this level of change year to year is this like the appropriate amount to swing the base game around I mean it go ahead Tom good Tom yeah yeah I mean what I would say is this like it's it's way heavier than we and we've talked about this because what this is doing is this is truly remaking reshaping the landscape on a yearly basis for winners and losers more so than points ever did you know and we had this conversation you know a year ago six months ago about just how heavy these these um these battle packs were to the point of almost being unfun just because they completely completely invalidate play styles they completely invalidate certain armies and they marginalize them heavily um and so it's just it's such a big swing for um for for a season where people are trying to you know if they're trying to get armies up to you know top tier painted or whatever it's real hard to do that in the six you know the six to 12 even 12 months when some of these armies are going to be non-standard builds they're not you know this isn't meat and potatoes that we're talking about here right like you were talking about ally and in all this crazy crap to stick with the thing I'm like is that is that how we want the base game play that like fire slayers to compete now just automatically have two stormcast wizards following around like is that the right level of change in the game that feels weird to me or yeah right I think that's fair yeah what what's in a product what do you guys want is is there an elevator version of what you guys want and and you probably said in the past but in relation to this okay so you don't want this what do you want some really interesting battle tactics battle plans and grand strategies the core thing and then some realm rules sure if you want to like if you want to stick in the seasons we're exploring the realms as part of the ghp do that throughout the generals handbook like the generals handbook we return back to having things for like lots of different types of play I'm not going to use their modes play thing but like put in a whole narrative thing in there that's like here's some stuff to further explore the current season and then in the match play thing it's like okay um wizards get plus one to cast and here's a magic item that can auto unbind a spell once a game like a new realm artifact that does that once a game you can auto unbind a thing and wizards have a six up ward okay cool magic season got it like that feels like a pretty light touch to me yeah they need to it's the difference between like thick and thin like they need a much thinner rule set for match play because it needs to have some degree of continuity between seasons like we're wildly swinging here what what like like there are armies that will that will like sort of your base percentage to rock up to the table and how effective that army is you will need to make massive changes to your army from like pre this ghp to now right yeah yeah and there are armies that like this won't impact at all they're going to keep doing the same strategy they're just going to keep doing the same thing they were they'll just now be like way better at it right and that's like when I say like rebuild your your list I mean like a lot I don't know well we should yeah let's let's do another show where we look at that I mean when we get more information and let's see what lists are looking like I would bet that we're not going to see well I I think you could build a lot of lists without that significant of change in some ways the loss of Galatian veterans in my mind might have more impact than certain factions than this stuff you know where like now you're not going to see as many Volkite berserkers potentially or you know we're going to not be able to be in big units because galley vets is gone and things like that I could see being more impactful but the loss of Galatian champions is going to be impactful with now being able to snipe better or more back on the table the I mean I hear what you guys are saying yeah I mean it gets into the whole argument about 6 months 12 months there are so many players who play this game competitively who get bored after 6 months and I'm hearing actually quite a bit of excitement at least personally out there about this level of change and zaniness and craziness like oh this is this is the AOS that I remember from like earlier on like yeah let's do this this is this is really interesting it's a different very different casting I'm certainly hearing some other viewpoints out there on all of this but it could be hey look tell me in the like right now hey chat you're out there voice your opinion have it be heard like is this do you want to see this amount of change more than this amount of change or less than this amount of change like let's just do a you know about right more or less uh season to season the ghp right like sure I'm I'm curious like I'm not I am in no way that's why I've sort of phrased it as a question at the beginning right because I don't I don't know that my opinion is representative of the the people on this I don't know that I'm speaking for the proletariat right I'm speaking my opinion and that's why I'm honestly asking like is this the correct stuff so like I don't know now like I said it's funny I keep talking about this because there's actually a lot of stuff in this season that I do quite like which we will get to it's just I feel like this base stuff is so heavy like there's FAQ questions and like everything with these primal magic and rolling all this stuff is like oh boy this is a lot of stuff going on right do you think this is a net improvement on the prior exact on the casting system of a was I know you've always had issues with the casting system of a was this is a net improvement is this a wash is it worse it's worse it's just exacerbating an existing problem Tom do you feel that way yeah I think so okay interesting I mean I don't know my first again I mean if we went through the design process you guys were doing it and then I mean I'm sure it could be better but I find this to be more intriguing personally as a base as like as the casting system casting them as a spell the magic system we're going to have for the next year I find this to be a lot more compelling including as it takes yeah let me let me ask you a question Tyler yeah did we need a subsystem for a subsystem oh I mean again from we can make a first principles argument I'm gonna have our time yeah okay so if you're yeah there's probably a better way to design this than this I mean you do but we're kind of arguing okay if you would start at the drawing board and do it all over again I'm more just saying like I'm not really having a first principles conversation more this is the reality is this gonna be better yeah like I hear that but I think that even like yes first principles but even deeper than that one of the things that Vincent highlighted I think that I do want to put a pin on is that this just doesn't touch everybody so to make something the hallmark of the season I think that's fair yeah some armies that it's just not a thing for them yeah really like there are armies that just don't have meaningful unbinds so like they're just not they're like that's yeah that's where his that's what he was getting out with his richer the rich are gonna get richer poor poor that was the nuance I think I agree with that unfortunately that that is one of the downsides of this that it's just like it's we're in a new season and some people are like we are right because they don't like nothing changes about any of their play style or abilities that and that's the problem when you design a subsystem for subsystem is that it's not going to touch everybody yeah so just glancing over the comments that that sort of float in I didn't see a single vote for more so if this is like what what the comments everybody but everybody who voiced their opinion that was a limited sample set and and you know like whatever whatever but everybody said either this is correct for the 12 month season I like this amount it's gonna last a whole year right yeah or I want less than this to you know a lot less something like that right so what we've I mean just from that very limited thing and I would tend to agree if anything this is kissing the upper limit of like we are at the asymptote of change here right this is as heavy as it could possibly be I think that is for sure right on well yeah I mean you obviously know where I stand on the whole complexity, simplicity discussion we've been having for the past two years now that we need to be going in the opposite direction of where we've been for quite some time so at the end of the day first principles like I'm obviously in a line with that and Pocastro your opinions are irrelevant for less than I because you think the truck bomb is fine so just yeah man just don't don't even post buddy I mean I'll ask Anthony's I'll answer Anthony's question which is a resounding no I cannot picture being like trying to explain this to a new person this is like opaque as right that's wild this is wild okay so here's how magic works all right do you remember did you learn all that okay cool now there's this other thing here's a homework assignment read about primary magic dice like oh my god sure yeah yeah so okay alright cool so now let's move on to the other sort of supplementary elements to this so we start with it which I actually like how they designed a lot of these things like here here we get into stuff I'm actually quite positive on which is so unique enhancements going to be taken in an army that does not include any wizards or any units with abilities that would allow a unit to cast bells in the same manner as a wizard this kind of stuff I like good good neat nice that you can't give it to the wizard people and have them do play both sides of the the the aisle there I'm for that here's your here's your well-being program bins or what we call the welfare the welfare programs yes exactly in this country okay all right so how good we did we do on these benefits yeah exactly uh so the hand carved null stone icon bad cool meet um we just talked about how people are going to be casting in the amount of spelldoms and you're like yeah boy let me get in there with that raw 2d6 I'ma get that spell no you're not you ain't unbinding anything well you know anecdotal so I'll I'll be quiet but it's certainly not been my experience so far in running this sure sometimes again that that mini game that mini game of where you are not you're not taking any wizards to get this right so you're to have this unbind and your heroic discipline or what your will power whatever it's called the thingy to let you online right plus potentially like if you're clever and you have free stick and unbind or corn dogs or whatever right sure but like I'm taking an item as opposed to anything else to get one more 2d6 roll right now I do get primal dice on this you're absolutely right I could choose to use primal dice on this right but no I'm just like there's no way man with like because I've got the I can also use the primal dice on my heroic willpower and I'm not going to have that many primal dice on average yeah because you're not taking yeah the problem here is you're not getting access to the acolytes battalion and I think that's going to be quite prevalent right as a way of getting yeah different yeah difference and I mean stocks on heroic willpower of shot through the roof let me say that as a heroic action uh okay this is fun I'm being very disagreeable tonight this is great it's like all of these episodes you're just hanging back Tom and I just let this guy run roughshod over me with all of his strong opinions no I I appreciate I appreciate you know backbone Tyler it's good right okay uh the pouch of noldust uh once for battle at the start of the hero phase you can say the bearer will use their pouch of noldust if you do so until the end of that phase unmodified casting roles include a double one double two or double three our tree is miscasts or a primal magic dice was rolled I'm probably casting role as primal miscasts um roll a dice for each endless spell on the battlefield on a five plus that endless spell is spelled um yeah it's not bad it actually doesn't do that much mathematically because it's not like it's only adding double twos and double threes to the list um but it is interesting against somebody like zinchu who will who will sometimes very easily achieve double threes and then still cast their spells on a seven right or something that becomes very funny um like them rolling say a three and a one or something on on two you six is like not that uncommon of an event so turning that into a miscast is a prize especially or uh is a pretty funny thing does this force all or to change to miscast uh no because they roll a four they just immediately like pull themselves out of it right it's it's like it's only if they happen to only have like three ones twos and threes yeah mathematically this doesn't do that much right what it does do though is clearly meaningfully disincentivize using primal dice whenever this is up in my mind so you yeah 100% yeah this is that's actually why this one's interesting to me because of the soft incentive against using the the primal magic dice because your casting role included like you're like I because I have to say this the start of the hero phase right so Tyler it's the start of your hero phase right yeah you're and you're like playing a zinch army and you're about to I know you've got like 10 or 12 spell casts yeah right like me blowing this on a turn when I don't want you really want don't really want you using magic suddenly like is a huge disincentive to you actually using any PMD during that phase because if you're regular casting role again now we'll take the Lord change out of it and somebody who's not manipulating the dice in some way people are just rolling maybe even with big bonuses right plus who gives a crap right if your dice rolled contained any ones twos or threes suddenly adding more primal magic dice to the mix does meaningfully change your the incentive to click that to punch that that whopper button yep because you radically increase your chance of primal miscasting so in that was my experience and again it's and I I'll stop qualifying it right I understand it's one game it's anecdotal etc okay but trying out null stone adornments for assing giggles I had pouch a null dust and the hand carved null stone icon and a extra let's see no because I had no wizards yes so I just had two unbinds in that game Heroku power and a built in one yes okay so yeah just one I was finding with that disincentive at least when it went off it will allow some meaningful bump and benefit with the null stone icon where I'm using primal dice and they're not help me then get multiple multiple taps right of the null stone icon so it's it's too it's probably too limited but it was some some meaningful benefit with with yeah with those conditions like like in general I don't think these go far enough as a well-being package as an equity package the yeah they don't go far enough but they're they're not terrible yeah I actually like this one the most solely because I like the the I like the way it screws with the incentives around primal magic dice it basically makes it so um you know you can you do have pretty strong control of the of the magic base in a really interesting and an orthodox way because it strongly disincentivizes them using the dice unless their base role already has like no ones twos or threes in it right they they were like a friend I'm like okay in which case they were going to get the stupid spell off anyways because they're now they're just like they're they're probably tripping off into supercast territory right so yeah um that's actually my favorite one from the list because of that by the way this is another thing that can also just like incidentally dispel all the spells just talking about like and the spells going away really easily I mean that's not the benefit of it it's on a five but but it's still just like can incidentally blop blop blop just kill an endless spell and okay cool uh and then the pebble when this unit is picked as a target of a spell or abilities of an endless spell you can roll a die on a four plus the cast and was picked another unit within three inches of this unit within range of that spell or on the spells abilities to be the target if when picking another unit there are no other units within three inches of this unit and the effects of that endless spells abilities on this unit instead okay I'd like it better if it was just a four up spell ignore rather than shifting to blame but yeah it's fine um all right so yeah you just have to keep you got to keep that person more than more than three away yeah yeah yeah I was I mean thinking of the big pieces you know frost lord on stone horn sure mark rusher etc I know mark rusher has weird in uh but I mean you could double up on weird in and this I think that's that's perfectly fine or fasten in this and yeah so I mean this one's interesting if with certain pieces that could potentially really benefit from this okay I agree I don't I do know I do not dislike this one I'm actually two out of three on this list like the hand car of nolson icon I just don't believe in but I like I like the other two I know that runs counter to your experiences but I like the other two um um it's it's terrible like so let me get the spell ignore is not bad you just have to not stand within three inches of anybody okay right um yeah I just I'm not and you have to build to not have a wizard in the army and you have to use an enhancement and and like it just it's it is not um you get this for free if you want an extra one you have to I know the trip into this is don't have any wizards don't have any wizards yeah I know I know I just it's a lot it's a lot it's great for corn corn loves it I mean corn still sneaking wizards into their list a bunch probably I've seen a bunch of initial people throwing like sneaking wizards because that's still not a prohibition there are still wizards you can sneak into that list stop them stop them now let's let's let's let's shut that down there should just be a thing that says like nobody's allowed to cast a spell here stop it but as an aside at this rate on the our progress for our slides we'll have a tower shown oh we're don't worry we're spending a lot of time we'll get through it uh it's a lot of good discussion um the yes as Kyle Nelson points out they are compelled to pick their own units if your unit is only within three of their units which is fun like it will it will go to their their unit it's like a big damaging spell which is cool it's fun I mean it means it means you just won't get targeted by the spell like no one's no one's throwing a horse at you on the 5050 to wreck their own unit right like that is not going to happen but then if that's the case it's a hundred percent spell ignore so still successful yeah okay all right uh Brenna makes a good point which I don't think we mentioned yet it's a unique enhancement but it's an artifact well I don't think anyway the point being you cannot take an artifact and a null stone enhancement a null stone endowment on the same hero if you have an artifact if they have an artifact you cannot take a null stone yeah so yeah good point all right spells let's talk about it we've been these are these are some big ones these are some big ones yeah all right cool uh so first off or sorry I said whorefrost I meant merciless blizzard I apologize um so first off whorefrost all right look here's what I almost feel compelled to read this whole spell this is a wild spell okay casting value 8 range of 12 inches successfully cast pick one friendly unit holy within range invisible to the caster I just mistyped all over your Tyler where was your editing I blame you no it's fine invisible to the cast pick one melee weapon profile on that unit's whore scroll and roll a d3 oops change the 2 hit 2 wound or rend characteristic of that melee weapon to match the result until the start of your next hero phase so if you roll a 2 you get to set the thing to a 2 plus or rend 2 or whatever uh okay cool cool cool good stuff now the relevant part here is you don't have to choose the characteristic until after you've rolled the dice yeah you have to choose the weapon first but you don't have to choose the characteristic okay so we saw this spoiled a little while back this is one of the most powerful buff spells ever printed if not the most powerful buff spell ever printed I don't categorically remember every buff spell ever printed but it's up there it would be in it's a Hall of Famer instantaneously Hall of Famer and it's rookie year okay yeah the casting value of 8 just doesn't matter um like because again this is why I say this is going to get done to you like the spell dummy people who are thrilled to take this oh I should state these uh spells can only be taken by andorian locuses and this replaces the other spell that they they would know like they choose this instead of a different spell only andes can take this these spells are andy only uh and this can obviously be hugely impactful when put on units that are normally say making a ton of attacks but hitting on like a 4 up or a 5 up right um say like your cabalists and you're casting on 3d6 and you've got some cast knights who who annoyingly always hit on 4s now suddenly they hit on 1s or 2s yeah that's going to be very impactful to the overall performance of those chaos knights right and so on and so forth yeah yeah big horde units lots of attacks grots or squigs yeah sure right like squigs you hit on 4s yeah exactly stuff like that like but again unless you have somebody who can power this through it's going to rarely happen if you have somebody with a large bonus to cast right who can like generate high numbers if you are a spell dom this is a hugely impactful thing for your army so looking at the overlap between like who's spell doming and then who has units that are going to benefit the most from this that's where your your power lies before for us right again unless you're in a middle class versus middle class game and then you're just like we both got plus 1 to cast an unbind let's do it guys then like cool you know swing for the fences somebody gets a whore for us to often just wreck somebody because they go to rend 3 yeah right like what a great day real quick shout out warhammer underscore rob on twitter warhammer rob he had a great threads of different whorefrost combos so if you're interested in getting ideas what you can do with this thing check out that thread on twitter yes and Keith roger says was your awesome hammer unit made balanced by having a bad hit to a bad to hit a bad to wound or a bad rent don't worry I've got the spell for you yeah I mean and then Romulan said 30 storm Berman at rend 3 yeah I mean 100% I'll also take 30 storm Berman hitting on twos or whatever that would also be fine um I'll take it the and like they actually have the grace here to power it through Keith or sorry Mike says ghouls with rend 3 Mike put that idea out of your head who's who's casting in your army no one FEC doesn't have spellcasters not any to speak of that matter in this season so unless you're going to go get in a fight with another middleweight and that's spelling happen you fight iron jaws you get rend 3 you fight like most people you don't get rent that's that's how it works that spell only works against other middleweights if you're in that army this is what I'm saying it will be done to you so who can push these spells out is it your spell but none of your spell bombs can push these spells out sure they can the salon the grace here like like Skaven can accumulate quite a few bonuses uh to cast and roll on 3d6 but uh but what I'm saying is a lot of your standard like high bonus reliable casters are unique many of them sure I mean a salon is not and he's at what base plus two plus three depending on how you build the army sure sure and he has unlimited range and and and there are a handful but but the reality is that most of the most of your actual spell bombs that are really thrown around spell power are not going to be pushing these spells out I agree I agree I think what that's why I said most of the time what's going to happen is you're going to be an average caster trying to put this spell out and then having and like if you get lucky enough it just gets shut off right yeah it just gets spiked yeah right okay Tyler do we miss anything on whorefrost CW mentioned Haywos tweets in response to that thread I mentioned the best combo I've found so far successfully casting it on one of your units that was Haywos beautiful tweet in response to all this so that's that's aligned with some of what we've been expressing here sure yes brahnu every single hero and cabalists also an excellent yeah also an excellent shout out yeah see let's see that sdd win right come back up I have a I have a sense that people are going to suddenly at least at the beginning of the season we're going to suddenly see the sub faction stats like go whoop and jump way up on one sub faction just a general feeling I have for no reason um ruptures crap I don't care next Tyler would you like to defend rupture do we have a disagreement here the second spell oh to what degree people will lean and we'll see more of the Caleb waltzers TM's each strategy of making your incarnate wild as soon as possible and then having endless spells but like we're saying if you're going to have endless spells being dispelled more often where they're not able to be then maybe that's going to be less likely to have to happen with with incarnates you know going wild so I doubt it's going to be a huge issue but that in general I'm talking about if an incarnate is able to eat an endless spell regularly it's almost impossible to kill basically sure and so it just it may not kill a whole lot itself but it goes and tries to tie up as much of your army as possible and being an absolute pain in the ass that's what Caleb did that's what we saw some other people doing in scenes for a while right so to what degree could we see that generalized in the game I don't expect it to happen but it's a possibility the spell can contribute to be clear you're saying the actual use of this spell is not at all what it's clearly been printed no right to do right right that's all pointless because it's a sideboard card right like you can get this gloom out of my main deck thank you okay but if you're the only time you play this you main deck this is when you're trying to like destroy your own stuff you want to turn your own things wild run your own incarnate wild like whatever all this wacky crap you're trying to accomplish right exactly that's it okay I we are a simple fact away I would love to see it we should have seen it a long time ago to fix this because it's rather sorry Caleb it's rather silly he probably meant it's rather silly but yeah we we're still enjoying this in the game so there we are yes I like ruptures there I like you'd have to I can't imagine that the given everything else you've talked about that's set against endless spells and the fact that we haven't gotten the second incarnate and the fact that we're going to talk about battle attacks in a moment which which are battle tactics which make incarnates also risky I I do not see the world that evolves where people are main decking rupture I just don't now the reality is we're about to talk about a command trait that maybe you get all three of these right you're you're taking the command trait to get whore frost and merciless blizzard right and then you accidentally got rupture yeah right and then merciless blizzard casting value of 12 and a range of 12 big number most of the time not here if successfully cast pick one enemy unit within range invisible that unit suffers 4d6 mortal wounds for each role of a one who cares you just did 4d6 mortal wounds shut up stop complaining I would do this every time and the range of the spell can never be modified in any way blah blah blah blah blah so okay cool no no arc on no spell portal no yada yada right it's 12 inches okay yeah it's a lot of mortal wounds I'm very glad to see this spell there's a spell a spell like this should have always existed by the way just in this season I'm a firm believer this should have always existed if magic's gonna be a wildly swingy system then let's lean into it let's put some redonk casting value crap in there and let people swing for the fences I'm not sure I love it in a season where 12 suddenly actually becomes a relatively achievable number regularly but you know I think magic should sometimes have some real swingy weird effects so I'm good with it and you know as you said people will try to spell bomb this right they'll try to teleport people forward in alpha strike with merciless blizzard the commensurate we're about to talk about they'll take the commensurate where they get access to all these spells and they can do an endless spell on top if they're going second right hear a phrase teleport you're going second with just a one caster now you got two cast now you're doing merciless blizzard and an endless spell and some of these new spells are pretty meaningful in the damage output like yeah yep okay let's um let's keep going cool yeah so merciless blizzard fun stuff command traits you can choose one if the general is an andy shaman of the chilled lands as you know all the those three spells cool eye of the blizzard is at the start of your hero phase on a five up you get an extra primal magic dice that can tip the inequity if you really want to go that strat which is interesting actually chilled to the bone you can it's just on a 34 on a 3 plus that's very funny on a 3 plus you can ignore the effects of that nope never throw good money after bad roll hard like that's a that's a tyler command trait which one I have the blizzard that's a tyler command trait trailers over here trying to hedge off against weaknesses and stuff trying to close off the risk no big to win big step up your game your game Tom I'm out Johnny you apparently in this moment and step it up buddy and then eater of magic each time you successfully unbind spell on a five up the caster no longer knows that spell I may not cast now we're talking now we're having fun absolutely yeah that's a this is more for my money on the anti magic side because actually like you Joe I don't know if you're joking or serious but I actually think that's really strong no I generally think yeah I think it's pretty interesting I mean there'll be a certain class competitive players that will decide the calculus on this is not in their favor but I was three for three the first time trying this out so it's apparently it's amazing we have talked about all of the incentive into running anti magic yeah yeah and all of the ways that primal magic dice should just be used to unbind spells and you have argued you will be actually able to unbind a lot more spells because of whatever whatever depending on the situation right yeah yeah okay so if everything you and I have said in this show all three of us have said in this show is true then Eater of Magic is actually really good because you're going to be unbinding more and if every round you pick off one of their spells one to two of their spells that's actually yeah crazy impactful on the game in shutting off a magic strat this is yet another reason why I think the anti magic strategy is really strong yeah you have like in my mind I look at this commentary less so I've just been building stormcast so far not looking at anything else but stormcast historically not a lot of options so master magic was often to go to less so now certainly there are competitive options here shaman of the chill lands is one Eater magic is two these embody in my mind what you're saying right do you think shaman of the chill lands is the one to lean into with the expectation of casting those spells or the anti magic is it pro magic or anti magic right it's Eater 100% feels so much better that's where I came down with all of this and in terms of like a balance list I'm not leaning too hard because corn is out there no merit is out there like building a toolbox list a balance list which as we get in the battle plans at 2am we'll see that I think they really incentivize having balance list have a mobility etc so yeah I think it's really interesting I mean again a salon with Eater of Magic crazy wild you set yourself up to be going second in every round where you're getting extra unbinds fantastic let's say you're already a double caster now you're triple unbinding you're getting three bites and this potential apple every round this is nothing but money right killing their ability to mystic shield for the rest of the game depending on how many casters they have crazy strong poor LRL with total eclipse yeah I mean I would just like to shut off power of Haish but like that you can't cast it anymore suck it suck it I hope you took the guy on the antelope or whatever number of people are pointing out the salon obviously huge stocks in the salon seemingly this this this season with with this although you really are taking a hit I mean that obviously I can remember the name of the one that gives you extra cosmic power points something social I don't think that yeah I mean my honest answer is I don't think the I've never I've always fully believed that the mortal wound bomb thing is going to get corrected or be overrated in some way this feels like a more balanced that just plays you better yeah please get corrected it's insane right now yeah all right cool all right Corpetallions these are new Corpetallion they're capped at one each per list you've got and and you got andy acolytes two small foot heroes one optional foot hero started hero phase if there are two or more friendly andy locus units in this battalion on the battlefield roll a die one of three plus you gain one primal magic die so cool and then wizard finders of and or you get some bonus attacks against wizards uh no um nope nope nope let me so now here's where I've had this argument in the bag you've mentioned this taking the acolytes like a lot yeah I'm harder on Batredge than I've ever been I want to be one drop I want to be hard core one drop you need to determine who's going second correct I'm gonna touch that pin up in the corner which is the power of going second in this season is so massive and we haven't even talked about all of it yet okay did I want to be one drop and set myself up to make that decision as often as humanly possible yeah and that's not worth a three up primal magic die to me no freaking way no freaking way two cracks at three up yeah for armies I really care about it I can say that there are still a number of armies I think that don't care about drops or that they have other reasons to be more than one drop right that's all the order of the acolytes I take the anti-acolytes because sure why not let's go let's go nuts man I'm like 15 drops already who cares yeah I haven't thought about I just I'm so tired of Batredge in this game like just nuke it I can't stand it the I so yeah I haven't thought a whole lot about that and yeah but you could be right what do you think Tom that add up in your mind probably still yeah those who can do it are still leaning into it I think it polarizes it pushes us back so like I think about this in relationships like bounty hunters right yeah bounty hunters was such a strong incentive to go multi drop yeah this this just isn't you get all your toys and you can still be one drop which gives you better decisions on your toys right what do you mean like because you get primal magic you get to play in all those pools the really powerful stuff without without having to give up one drops and so I think that in general this will become the purview of those that just that one drops aren't an option this will be this will become the default extra this will not be something that people like build for yeah if you're a lot of drops you take this and be one drop you are that would be a very interesting analysis I mean we'll see with Liz but it would be very interesting to actually try to go through that analysis in terms of predictive expectations because that could potentially further lean into the anti-magic case this season in the end you know where right you have that differential of maybe maybe Luminec or Zinch or some of those armies that are magic oriented that are going one drop but then they're not getting the benefit of the primal dice two cracks at it for about around three up two in particular lean into the anti-magic even more against them something like that I don't know I'd be curious sure but yeah my strong belief is you'll see battle red shoot up and you'll see high drop shoot up it'll inverse bell curve it yep interesting like as as Coo Hall said imagine a world where people had to actually pay attention to how many drops they were sure crazy what a beautiful world to live in because I mean that's like when was the last time that we were in the world where it's like oh you know your average drops are four to six for 70% of the armies yeah yeah I've been seriously thinking about banning battle red from Bulboros just to see just to see like just for the sake of different I don't know if it's a better world but it's a different world I'm ready for a different world I'm so tired of it by the way you asked what I'd like to see in the in the seasons something like that would be an interesting change what I mean by that is like switch up the actual core battalions in meaningful ways that they create different build structures that would be a meaningfully interesting thing to do rather than trying to like tell this narrative through match play rules that are way heavy right yeah like it's a match play pack make match play changes I just I continue to believe we're just making a fundamental product management decision here or misstep here of misaligning our product with our personas like that's what it comes down to okay grand strats there's a lot of them okay the ones that stand out to me and I'll I'll let you guys then also talk about what what what you like right but slot slaughter of sorcery a plus choice for me plays right into what I wanted to do anyways okay which is like take no wizards right and then if I happen to play somebody else if anti magic wins and I play somebody else so that becomes the more popular choice they're also gonna have slaughter of sorcery I have slaughter of sorcery neither of us have wizards we both get our grand strats and we can just ignore this and move on like you don't get it if they show up with no wizards and you have no wizards yeah that was my thoughts fantastic I ended up with this for no wizards yeah what a win what a wonderful world and most of the time I'm going to be trying to kill their stupid wizards anyways when they do have them so perfectly aligned incentives there right now the spell casting savant is the other one if you're gonna do andes you know depending on how your ability to keep them safe um maybe that's went down maybe it hasn't you know I don't know but like um but like that's you know holding back and Andy and just making sure they live like if you've got a frog or something like that's not bad yeah bodyguards right if you got heavy bodyguards and all of that yeah exactly exactly yep yep those are the two that you're using yeah and then over shadow when the battle ends the scratcher out if all enemy battle line units from your opponent's starting army are destroyed and there's at least one for the battle line unit from your starting army on the battlefield so not quite as easy as the og for third edition but still yeah that strikes me as one that we might see as as a third option Tom are there any others that stood out to you um I mean bear and ice scape is bad yeah like so on the other side of this right yeah yeah sure no it's worth mentioning how terrible it is yes because sure in general people are going to be incentivized to have multiple items when possible um so if we do skew towards one drop most armies will only have one unit that you can kill here but also keeping enemy units out of six inches in the center of the battlefield that just may not be an option if they have Archeon good luck sure or just they get the bottom of five they just run to the middle touch the six inch bubble and deny your grand strat like what an easy grand strat to deny right they just they just book it toward the middle with literally any unit yeah so that gets a honor I mentioned for just bad sure I mean I would also say magic made manifest is really bad as well just because of how much we've talked about how endless spells can go get wrecked right and again so like you don't get the bottom of five they do they just like okay all those are gone cool you lose you lose your thing yeah this is really a story of haves and have nots in this season everybody's going to take spell casting slaughter of sorcery and overshadow yeah which is fine that's probably three out of six is I think more than we've had in last seasons so okay yeah cool yeah it's pretty rough last season yeah so yeah not too bad in past seasons we've gotten like one or two out of six or like one and a half yeah and mostly we've been living in take what's theirs and book you doing take what's theirs you doing take what's theirs take what's theirs take what's theirs for everybody orange whip orange whip orange whips okay alright battle tactics uh okay ah I don't know what happened there that's really weird okay cool anyways intimidate the invaders you complete this battle tactic at the end of your turn if there are more friendly units wholly outside your territory then there are friendly units within your territory okay very battle plan dependent but cool an easy turn one top of one one like leave your starting zone alright yeah or late game I mean it's one kind of choose your own timing of this it's one you can hold on to um yeah particularly for the the split halfway you can hold on to it for later in the game yep yep yeah it depends exactly depends a lot on like the nature of your territory right right what that looks like and there will be some interesting battle plans where that will show up in interesting ways but okay that one's fine like that one good a plus interesting on timing and how you use it and neat it's you know I suppose fail but yeah that's okay that's right you're potentially doing some things right incentive of it which is get out of your home territory which is nice yes right well I was just gonna say that you're potentially doing some positioning things you don't want to be doing or at least on the margins you don't want to do that's why I like it yes I agree that's that's what I'm saying right it's sort of breaking up your castle and say hey you gotta go leave your your your safety bubble right right yeah there's a lot of things this season that are breaking up they're affecting castles in healthy ways so that's cool I'm for this one Tom you for this one yeah yeah I think that it it generates some interesting play opportunities okay Reprisal you complete this battle tactic if an enemy unit that destroyed a friendly general earlier in the battle is destroyed in this turn I'm gonna give this one a thumbs up too what I like about this one is it's not an immediate kickback like you don't have to if your general died last turn you got to kill it this turn it can just be like at any point and it just as a friendly general so like if somebody kills your war masters or stuff like that all your bonus genies can still trip this off and suddenly turn this on for the rest of the fight obviously not a turn one a turn one top of one choice yeah be impossible but yeah I like this one it's good I like this is an interesting thing go after that unit you have to you know you pick your times right and you know cool yeah good I felt like we had a scheme that was this back in the day something like this we had something pretty similar yeah we had something pretty similar that's cool go if you're getting desperate need to go suicide your general you're not spell castings of on your grand strat it's not you know you don't care as much about you can sacrifice your general and then to open up some avenue for a four battle tactic in a desperate situation that's kind of neat but yeah not too bad endless expropriation that word uh no nope not reading all the text and it's a no it's a no for me dog it just it just simply is yeah all that it's saying mostly is pick a enemy wizard do a thing that in many games will be impossible sure kill an enemy wizard bonded basically kill an enemy wizard that's bonded to an endless spell yep without mostly that's what it's yes correct yes correct just dispelling down the spell doesn't get you there which is what's insane to me about this right right like that was a slam dunk um but but no uh no hard no I mean realistically many people's games four out of five games many people play especially with how I think the season will go this won't even be viable like this you will literally have seven battle tactics because there will be zero endless spells or incarnates in the enemy list such as like is it even a thing this is so specific and weird and I hate it I just it's a this is an F this gets a hard F so you're telling me you don't like when battle tactics or secondary objectives are so specific that in some games they won't actually impact the game uh no I'm saying this one gets an F okay you're trying to trap me on a banners held high plenty of people have banners in totems Tom especially in the early period I know I was going to be like clever I know what you're going for people had banners no no I'm just uh pointing out the sarcasm and the irony and the reality is that people will still have endless spells I know that in general people won't like they won't but people definitely still will there will still be things like a mirror like it's it's it's going to be out there yeah yeah alright magical dominance you complete this battle tactic at the end of your turn of a friendly wizard unsuccessfully uh no that should be successfully that there's no way that's my fault no that was no way that is me if a friendly wizard successfully cast I've just mistyped it because I was you know like reading and typing and just my brain said friendly wizard successfully cast one or more spells and none of the spells cast by any units in your army were unbound okay this is a weird one because it says cast one spell then stop yeah yeah I read this I was like tech let's push his spell out you don't attempt anymore congratulations stop stop while you're ahead right you know there's no need to push it here this is a weird one actually because this is a magical dominance this is the hardest to achieve for uh for spell DOM armies that are also spell spam armies because as you pointed out and I do think you're at least partially right that like they will get spells at least around the margins chewed off right yeah your chances of unbinding at least one spell goes way up right right well like Tom I was partially I was partially right that's gonna feed me for for a month here so I give you a little there you go baby bird you get a little um yeah I mean as as people have pointed out yes multiple times with that like the you have a with you you're not playing seraphon and you keep a wizard more than 30 inches away you cast mystic shield and turn one and stop casting it stop and done got it yeah be out of unbinding range and cast your spell the top of one like this will be a very common turn one top of one thing from a from a caster sitting at the back of the board throwing mystic shield on somebody I really love this one I mean obviously ridiculous name it's the exact opposite of dominance right yeah exactly yes so but yeah I like you laid everything out that I like about this what it does to spell domes and so on and so forth so yeah and yeah it's early or potentially it's late if you can get rid of wizards and then you have a wizard to cast a spell with primal dice and round four or five just to get this as a as a last bit of battle tactic but yeah I think it's cool yeah it's fine so I'm gonna say we've got what is that three so far that feel pretty doable okay cool yeah or yeah yeah like he's possible in the world of reprisals tricky reprisals tricky but it's it's doable it's doable again because it's generous in its timing that's why I'm giving it the into the dual magic mayhem pick one in a meter on the battlefield you complete this battle tactic if that unit is destroyed by damage inflicted by a spell or the abilities of an endless spell whoof that is a high bar to cross for a lot of armies ironically this is the magical dominance because each looks at this and goes like all right we can get their voice let's do this right right but again the more anti-magic that's in the the world the harder this becomes to know you've got for sure right for a lot of armies a lot of armies this is a non-starter like what are you banking on a merciless blizzard no no I know what you're banking on is an arcane bolt like like what you're doing is you look across the battlefield that guy's on there it is yeah yeah this one feels like a rarely achieved and a very difficult one honestly for a lot of armies or a very easily achieved one for a very few armies that's how I would divide it like I don't believe that you try to blizzard somebody that's just no no no no no blizzard's gonna draw primal magic dice so fast on the on the unbind faster than you can you can say snow okay hold on so in this season when you unbind a spell instead of saying no are you saying snow I say snow to that spell okay I appreciate when your cheese side comes out like that was really bad like Jesus Tom is struggling here and you're pulling out that nonsense tonight alright I gotta keep you on point bait and trap you can lead if two or more friendly units are treated and two or more different friendly units are made to charge move this turn like this one a lot it's great it's very doable it becomes really interesting with people who can hero phase do shenanigans like who can hero phase charge or stuff like that that actually becomes really interesting so night haunt looks at this as yes please sure because they're always wanting to retreat and charge obviously the two that was the two that you can't bring the same two units out and back in which is what they normally want to do retreating and charging is basically in there in their wheelhouse right agreed it's something for night haunt we don't get to say that very often love this one as well it's really interesting working to set this one up it's nice I also like that it encourages fighting and I generally like things that are anti-distar and encourage fighting which this does fighting in more places is a good incentive to have in the game so I'm going to count this as a fourth one so that I think is good so four for six so far lead into the maelstrom you can believe this battle tactic of one or more friendly heroes and one or more friendly battle line units each made a charge move this turn and at least one of those units is within three inches of an enemy unit at the end of this turn I kind of hate this but it's fine I hate tactics that punishing you for winning sure what I mean by that is like okay I'm going to do this and then I charge my hero and my unit into your unit and we kill the enemy unit yeah and I lose the battle tactic because I killed you too hard right and that's a real like that's a real like new player trap that ends up happening obviously experienced players are just going to like charge one of those units into multiple units exactly so that way like I completely kill this unit and then I'm still within three inches of the other thing I didn't want to charge right like cool right it's fine this is a totally doable tactic I just hate things that punish you for winning too much right that's fair what did DJ Khaled ever do to you I don't understand why you're coming after him so hard uh Fragam says informer by snow sing it when you unbind first of all that is really hard obviously I could like readily start doing informer off the top of my head I did grow up in that time period but that's not an easy one all right surround and destroy pick three different friendly units on the battlefield you complete this battle tactic at the end of your turn within six inches of a different battlefield edge and two or more of those units are wholly outside your territory holy crap three different friendly units uh each of those units has to be wholly within six inches of a different battle edge battlefield edge so they got it mm-hmm right so one two three or one two three right whatever you get it you can have there and two of them have to be outside your territory good god I didn't think you could get more wild than um the map explorer one we had right map maker um but boy do we do it I mean that was popular well okay I might have said something did you did you hate that one okay go ahead it's fine like this is first turn accomplishable if you have a teleborder in a number sure yeah it's battle tactic teleport first off it is battle tactic teleport it is not battle tactic ambushers okay people are right because you got it yeah you gotta be on the battlefield you gotta be on the battlefield that's right so people like boc who are trying to null deploy like I mean like obviously you could like come on all over the board then the next round pick it right that's fine but you can't do it while they're off board right so like sure but but like uh like even looking at this uh geomantic pulse lines of communication um every step forward limited no maybe not you have to have high mobility but like a number of these you can get to they've got the full width deployment if you have all width deployment you easily turn one for that that uh that tactic it matters a lot how you set up like the nature of the battle plan is crazy impactful to your ability to accomplish this thing it is also battle tactic teleporter army absolutely like scaven are loving this one surround and destroy auto auto easy every time two points in the bank um but I like this one just fine uh so all in all I think there are six interesting ones here that I think are are doable at worst let's count it five and a half because it's reprisal maybe it's maybe it's a pretty high bar but but I think there's easily five and a half to six so surrounded so you're counting surrounded destroy in that I am counting surrounded destroy yeah okay yeah and then I think it's doable in enough battle plans and there's enough teleporters and enough people with ambushers who could like drop them over in a corner and wait set it up for the next turn the next round and so on right yeah yeah I thought it might be a soft incentive for more lists to run you know like ether wing equivalent units you know just little units where their job is which would be interesting to me just a little more variety yeah in in list building maybe to try to get this so maybe a soft incentive like less that's kind of cool but yeah yeah so not not too bad this season battle techniques no this is so I this is the funny thing I talked about like I actually like many of the things this season the three different grand strats that are good I actually like them and the way that they function I actually kind of like what they're doing I wish we had six out of six but three out of six is better than previous seasons and I like how different they all are I like six out of eight of these battle tactics quite a lot yeah magical mayhem and endless expropriation are the only two I don't like and I that's because they lean too much into the current wackadoo season right right so like this is the you asked again to answer your question a third time what would I like to see this is the kind of stuff I want to see just like hey really cool interesting battle tactics that encourage different play to break up castles and make you want to go wide and fight on your fronts and you know get yourself around the battlefield more like to me that's good stuff like that's changing the play experience moment to moment right right like I don't need entire bolt on systems that are like let's throw 50 more magic dice at you and pages of rules text and and we'll go into how to like be like two pages of FAQs right alright battle plans we're there everybody we did it we got there okay and this will actually be pretty fast because a lot of these will just be like going through the the basic thing and and then yeah cool battle plans there's nothing to do with battle plans I just thought it was a neat piece of art okay geomantic pulse alright so the four objectives start a second battle round player who goes second chooses either A or B to be the pulse and then for the rest of the game it's going to travel in the opposite direction so two three four five or sorry two three four five four two three four five that's what happens that's a travel this direction or travel this direction okay cool and objectives can't be moved standard scoring stuff if you control the pseudo standard scoring I should say because it's like control one objective is a VP control the pulses to one VP each objective adjacent to the pulse is one VP right so it's it kind of works out the same we sort of backed into almost the standard scoring depending there will be there will be interesting rounds like in three and four you get this extra ghost point that can happen yeah but being able to set up your being able to make this choice as the player taking the second in turn two is actually quite powerful based on like where your army is and where you think your strength is right okay yeah because you're looking at seven up to seven points in those in those mid turns in two mid turns yeah that's right over the beat that's right yes in three and four three and four I believe yeah yeah like in turn one you only have one three available from yeah I'm counting from objectives sure right in turn two you have four from objectives in turn three and four you have five and then in turn five you go back to four right so it goes one four five five four is your objective points okay sounds right yeah cool good and then obviously battle tactics sack on top of that is normal uh geomantic pulse yeah I don't hate this one easy deployment love the deployment map this is one of my favorite just a simple deployment map it's a classic nice horizontal spread get you get you moved out across the board good scoring going second turn two is quite powerful turns three and four I really think you will end up scrumming in the middle trying to get at those those bonus points you mentioned right just a slight downside I'd rather have the scrum in the middle on turn three and four than one and two sure honest answer I gave this one a seven out of ten nothing incredible very ready for play tournament ready yeah Tom what's your vote you in the same place yeah it's a great just uh run the mill um vanilla scenario like other than the kind of unusual scoring situation with the four objectives which is a nice mix right yeah um I appreciate um I appreciate it although I will say it goes back back to what we were talking about um about the turn two or the second or like the bottom of the second continues to get to touch the pin touch the pin yep okay uh nexus collapse so this uses the box to box corner to corner deployment um which will make things like surround and destroy potentially harder like as here you're only adjacent to when you begin and so on and so forth so that's just always something we should think about right mm-hmm um but other than that standard nine inch away again I like this deployment um instability at the start of each battle round after the first after determining which player will take the first turn the player with the fewest victory points can choose to collapse up to two objectives if both players are tied on victory points the players roll off and the winner can choose to collapse one objective roll a dice for each unit within six inches of any collapsed objectives on a four plus that unit suffers d3 mortal wounds once all rules have been made for those units remove all collapsed objectives from the battlefield okie dokie so six objectives to start right mm-hmm and then from turn two on the person with the lowest VP can collapse two or you roll off and you collapse one right so you actually can get to zero objectives in this though it would not probably make sense to do so but it is possible which is interesting mm-hmm okay upside easy deployment love this deployment map I love a square to square six objectives to begin in a good spread like every like the positioning arms really nice across the board good scoring the catch up mechanic is really interesting since it's the lower victory points not just going second in the round yeah yeah I actually really like that as a catch up mechanic my downside is I really hate the random rule for collapsing objectives I really really hate it it sounds mean it sounds minimal at first but think about it this way the games that are the tightest that you're playing like you're you're like pacing the opponent right yeah where you're you're tied on victory points yeah those are generally your most intense equally matched games right in those games we've now introduced a very swingy element because now you just roll off and just randomly one person is going to get to go up on scoring because they'll collapse the objective they want reminds me of an ash con game where it came down to a scorched earth die roll on a d3 if I roll the three up by one if I didn't we tied yeah it's like okay what I mean yeah it's weird but and the difference there that I think is that I'm really trying to drill in on yeah right is ironically they like they probably wrote that text thinking like well we gotta have some way to decide and that's the easy way to decide right where I would have just preferred if you're tied on victory points nobody collapses an objective that would have been a far better way to write it because why did we just decide if you're playing a really good evenly matched game where you're both just like you know really do it like just punch and trade and punch for punch right mm well in that case let's just make it more random and swingy no no wrong choice you like they didn't think that through right and and that it's that kind of thing that really bothers me because it didn't need to be there mm-hmm right they were doing like the ketchup mechanic is really good the lower victory points really good design the map is well designed like everything here was banging for me and then I read that and I was like oh right yeah great you know so the other asterisk I would add to the nice ketchup mechanic is when I read this initially what came to my mind is second and be ideally one point behind like five sure five four right yeah like it just feels like that's a natural pool that this has as an orientation if you can which then creates an interesting question in the mind of the players going first and what are they doing and you know just so it's kind of interesting but I do worry if I have to play this a number of times get a feel for but I do worry that maybe this will have a sizable impact this mechanic that can make for swinging games I hope not like my feeling is it's probably good but I don't know until I play it's an interesting thing I hadn't even thought that part through but yeah you're right like intentionally not take three objectives you know so you just like that in the battle tactic I'll score four okay let's go into turn two cool I get to collapse your two objectives and then you know set up my own position yeah by the way the extra mortal wounds thing is just silly and shouldn't be there like just stop sure stop writing the text somebody should have just smacked their hand like just stop that text did not need to be there it's irrelevant extra text we don't need to be doing this splash mortal wound thing I hate all that hate this silly splash mortal wound thing yeah it just doesn't need to exist stop it but yeah it's kind of an interesting kind of you know game theoretic context that this one can create and different potential scenarios to consider mm-hmm so yeah but overall I still gave this one a seven out of ten because I still think it's good and in most instances you know you'll you'll you'll have it'll be fun you'll though I think it will spawn some real feel bad moments here and there yeah yeah you can see that Tom anything else you did I miss anything there from your perspective no no I think that hits at all okay all right cool lines of communication again nice simple deployment good dig it fantastic keep it up disruption at the start of each battle round after determining which player will take the first turn the player taking the second turn can pick a phase to disrupt where they get total eclipse during that battle round each time a model in their opponent's army issues a command trait in that phase their opponent must roll a die on a three up an additional command point must be spent in order to issue they can choose whether or not to if they don't the command fails and the command point is lost and it's being