Welcome to Kondo Insider, our weekly show about association living, primarily Kondo associations. I think it's interesting to note that about 38% of our population lives in an association here in Hawaii and there's a lot to learn. So this is for boards of directors and homeowners alike and we welcome questions if you want to call our hotline at<PHONE_NUMBER>. We'll try to answer your questions but you know now the last couple of weeks we spent a lot of time on the legislature and a lot of the bills out there and we're not going to go into that. I would like to encourage all of you to donate to Think Tech of Hawaii, you may have seen a little flash note at the beginning because you do a wonderful service and wonderful topics and I know I've personally donated as well as Hawaii Council of Community Associations and these types of programs bring a lot of insight to our residents in Hawaii on topics that sometimes rarely get discussed. So I know even a few bucks you know helps them a lot because all nonprofits do that. But today this is an exciting show for me, it's very rare, maybe never, we have a show where we're going to offer you something for free that may save you money. One of the things that I've always been proud of in Hawaii and I first heard of this initiative I said that's never going to happen is our state's objective to be energy free by the year, I want to say 2040 but I'm not exactly sure. 2045. 2045 our guest says. So I invited today a good friend of mine, CEO of Shifted Energy, Boris Rizal, to talk about a program that's being launched July 1 for multifamily which is condo associations, high rises primarily, although it would work for large townhouse groups or whatever, a program that would do two things. Number one it will provide an instant credit on your electric bill there every month and number two potentially reduce your electric bill. It's a very novel creative technology program so Boris welcome to the show. Great to be here, thank you for having me. Tell us something about you and your company and give us a general overview. Yeah, so I live in Waimanalo, Hawaii, a proud graduate of the University of Hawaii. I've been in technology my whole career, love tech, I did five years and split between state and city and county government, worked for a Hawaii gas for a utility and a friend of mine was the founder of Shifted Energy, Olin Lagon and he'd been working on this idea for a while, had some prototypes and he asked me to come on board and help to commercialize it, get some finance money and get some pilots going and you know I'd always wanted to do a startup and so I decided throw caution to the wind and let's do it. So what and I want to get into more detail on this but in general terms what is the objective, the kind of the global objective of Shifted Energy? I know you're a startup, you're gonna have a startup program for our new subscribers, what is it generally doing? Right well so the idea is global, there's 600 million electric storage water heaters globally, oftentimes they're found in multi-unit dwellings like condos, apartment buildings, townhomes and there's just not a lot of opportunity for utility scale programs in these regions so you think solar, solar plus storage, electric vehicles, typically those are sold to the single family homeowner and condos, apartment buildings and especially renters are kind of left on the side with those type of programs but they all have a device that's grid connected, it's already attached to the grid that is the first or second largest consumer of energy in the home. That's the water heater. So what is your, how's your company tackling that problem in general terms before we get into the specifics? Right and so because we're tech guys we took a little bit of a different approach and so we use machine learning to understand how each family uses their water heater and we do that so we get a unique profile so we can maximize the amount of capacity we get for that water heater without affecting access to hot water and so if you think about one water heater maybe it's a kilowatt it's not a whole lot but then you magnify that you aggregate that up and you do 10,000, 50,000, 100,000 water heaters you're able to control megawatts of energy so in the case of Hawaii if we want to use all that rooftop solar that we're creating turn on those water heaters during the opportune time of day from 10 to 2 that way you can shut them down from 5 to 9 when you're not producing solar avoid burning fossil fuel and you drastically can reduce that demand curve in the evening. So you, I'm a lay person, I come from technology you know so what you're doing is hooking up a device to a water heater and it kind of learns your individual habits and when you're using hot water when you're not using hot water and then it regulates when it turns on and turns off the water meter so you have hot water when you need it but at the same time you're not paying the heat water when you don't need it. Right and we've really engineered our product to be invisible to the rate payer and so our controller it's small it splices in line completely agnostic to the size that make the model of the water heater and we're just in the quietly in the back where you sell cellular internet of things technology for communications so we don't need to borrow your Wi-Fi we don't need to run any cables and it's so it's really simple for the for the homeowner to participate or the renter and it's a 15 minute install we're in and we're out.  Yeah it's you know it's about I would say four inches by about seven inches it's really small. A little device that's kind of in a way a little mini computer because it's understanding what you're doing your own personal profile you're not stuck with everybody's got to be the same in your building right and in the meantime it transmits the data through our cloud software your cloud software and in the meantime it's connected to turn off your electricity meter at the appropriate time. Right and so we're working with the utility then to kind of dance with their needs because if you think about especially renewable energy it dances right sun and wind are dancing like this and you need to be able to match that and that's exactly what we're doing think about it as a battery but it's thermal it's a thermal battery. Is this something you have to seek approval from HECO or the PUC where does that stand because we're very regulated in the industry so I mean I mean is this on your own or do you have the government and the utility behind you? Right well our business model here in Hawaii so we have agreements in place with Hawaiian Electric we're waiting on approval from the utility commission we're gonna do about 2,500 units about two and a half megawatts here in Hawaii so we'll actually go out we'll recruit we'll install and then we'll aggregate that capacity and we'll sell that back to the utility. The utility wants that because it's a it's a cheaper form of energy than burning fossil fuel and it gets us to our 2045 goal. Now the PUC and the electric company are on board with what you're trying to do. Absolutely. You know I really like to give Hawaiian Electric kudos it's easy to beat up on them and a lot of people do but as a startup we've done multiple pilot projects with them they've been an incredible partners of ours I mean really our company is where it's at because you know they've been willing to work with a local company and we've been able to now scale that into a you know a commercial space so I give a lot of credit to one electric. Before I go on with some other questions I just want to summarize something yeah have you correct me if I want. So they would call your company once this is approved by the PUCs you're looking for like a July startup of this kind of a thing and their building would say we'd like to participate in your program right and there you would come install devices in each unit it costs them nothing to have this installed this is all free right that little device a little computer would be connected to your clouds of software turning on their hot and cold water to the extent of when you're heating it in line with their habits within their own unit and at the same time because they agreed to participate they would get between a three and five dollar a month credit on their electric bill. Exactly and so typically we'll reach out to the property owner or the property manager and we'll work with them to get access to the building and we'll then work with their either security or their building maintenance and it's it multi unit really facilitates rapid scale because we can do a notice we're going to be there and we typically we go door-to-door we do our installs we're in and out in 15 minutes and one of the things that we've you know we've pulled a bunch of property managers and owners so above just you know the bill credit we'll do a courtesy check of the thermostat and the heating element this is something that nobody pays attention to but if one of those are bad in your in your water heater it's not working optimally and you're you're going to be ultimately paying more in your electric bill so we'll optimize that along with the bill credit along with some leak detection and some other benefits and then like I said rapid scale and multi unit buildings I know phase one you've talked about 2,500 units so I assume because you know that's the out of a hundred 150 30 units of building you're not talking about more than 10 12 15 buildings to you know there's hundreds if not thousands of buildings that would qualify for this yeah I'm assuming that that's like a startup phase you want to do more that's not the end of the program absolutely our goal here in Hawaii is a hundred thousand when electric will do subsequent yearly contracts like the one that we're working on right now and so each year we're going to go out and we're going to recruit and we're going to install until yes we would like every dumb electric water heater in the state to be smartly intelligently controlled and and empower our community to be part of the process of getting off of fossil fuel generation let's just say I had a building of 200 years to want to do this and they called you and they say this is a good idea let's do it about how long to get an approval and they really get their program started is that like a couple weeks a month years yeah the installation process is fairly quick like I said it's about a 15 minute install we would typically schedule to do it all at one time so maybe we'd be there for a week and a half getting all the installations done we would collect some information from the rate payer typically well primarily we need their account number their one electric account number and then we sign them up and as soon as the program goes live which is going to be sometime this year they they start receiving their their bill credit and we can just keep replicating that throughout the island let's just assume it's approved by the PUC with a final legislative regulatory phases in place so I called you and our board voted yes to do that and we notified the residents is it about a month before it gets installed or two months or six months yeah I know I would say a couple months right we would we would there's some planning just finding that the day that works best to come and start those installations depending on our manufacturing schedule how many controllers do we have in the shop but it's it's really it's pretty quick so if I partnered with you you wanted to do those 200 units we would have it signed up and done within a couple months okay well what we're gonna do right now is we're gonna take a short break I'm with forest facility CEO of shifted energy talking about ways you can say three to five bucks a month for doing absolutely nothing and support our state goals on energy renewables so we'll be right back in a minute hey loha my name is Andrew Lening I'm the host of security matters Hawaii airing every Wednesday here on think tech Hawaii live from the studios I'll bring you guests I'll bring you information about the things in security that matter to keeping you safe your co-workers safe your family safe to keep our community safe we want to teach you about those things in our industry that you know may be a little outside of your experience so please join me because security matters aloha hi I'm Rusty Komori host of beyond the lines on think tech Hawaii my show is based on my book also titled beyond the lines and it's about creating a superior culture of excellence leadership and finding greatness I interview guests who are successful in business sports and life which is sure to inspire you in finding your greatness join me every Monday as we go beyond the lines at 11 a.m. aloha well I was just watching that commercial for beyond the lines and they're talking about the great program by the way interviewing these people who achieved greatness and I sort of feel badly I haven't been invited to appear on the show yet but I guess I'll get over that in time we're as far as Frizzell right now talking about renewable energy and maybe it's because I'm in the condo industry you know in the condo industry most of us think we need a psychiatric care you know it's the tough business start-up industry could be anyway I just want to review a couple things so you have a program that basically will provide a credit in your electric bill for these multifamily units that will help us become more energy efficiency as a state if not the world by controlling your demand for electricity to heat your water meter by using it when you need it which kind of makes sense and we've said that if you sign up it's free for the installation no costs is there any maintenance things they have to come in once a year every other year that is this all driven by technology you know if you have a bad meter or a bad reader or whatever yeah no so our controllers are built to last at least 10 years because we're using a cell chip we don't need we don't have to worry about your wi-fi connection or anything like that what's also great about our technology if the controller fails your water heater will not fail because we wire it normally closed and that's a really important thing to think about because we don't want anyone to experience having a cold shower because that's just not a good experience and and then that allows us you know say a controller fails we can wait until we have a dozen or so and then we can go out and we can replace them all at one time it just makes it easier from a maintenance standpoint there's the controller always learning for lack of a better word so if all of a sudden you changed your habits that it would adjust accordingly yeah that's an excellent question we actually go out four times a day and so we're always relearning the environment and that can be seasonality it could be because you go on vacation and and that's actually what we area we haven't touched on say you go on vacation we'll sense that and we'll automatically shut down the tank until we see usage again and so we'll learn these patterns we'll learn your family typically takes three showers in the morning and two showers in the evening and that helps us to have that again that unique profile for how your family is using the water heater so we can maximize how we're using it but not give you a cold shower now are you able through this process at all to identify maybe issues with the water heater it's thermostat and things as you're going along you're saying does not being efficient a couple yeah so we've seen this in a couple different ways we sent a signal to turn on and we'll we'll see that a thermostat doesn't engage and so we can we'll have an alert for that we've detected leaks actually we had a controller on a friend of mine's home and his brother kept calling me telling me he was getting a cold shower and i was i was promising him that we weren't running any any kind of testing and so we finally just went out there to just check on it and it turns out they had a leak and we helped them find that leak and we potentially saved them thousands of dollars and they were actually really grateful for us because they would have never have known that they had that leak and the one thing i think you said i'd like to just explain a little bit more about this that if the association agrees you're now installing the controllers tell me just repeat a little bit more about the courtesy check you're doing and why that's valuable yeah it's valuable because so almost every water heater typically has two thermostats and two heating elements and nobody pays attention to those so if you have a thermostat or a heating element that's gone out your water heater is now not optimized and to heat correctly and so you're going to be burning more energy than you should be and so we'll come in we'll replace those if need be to help optimize the water heater and in the way that it's you know working efficiently because my wife tells me i know nothing about nothing so so i think i'm smarter than that but to me my perception is this is a big problem i don't think people look at their water heaters very much other than they expect hot water when they take a shower or do the dishes or whatever it may be and and so i would suspect that there's lots of controllers that aren't ideal and often operating in an optimum that a lot of us are paying the heat water we aren't using and we just keep it heated all the time just in case and and i say paying for it we're paying for it in different ways you know just because you're you're certainly it's in your electric bill i know your your company doesn't promote utility saving but there's potentially utility savings out of this absolutely yeah so a couple things there so most people don't realize you're actually supposed to drain your tank once a year and and that helps to prolong the life um and another thing to think about if there's a hurricane and you lose water you can actually drink the water in your in your water heater you need to boil it first but just a you know a safety tip out there but but absolutely people aren't paying attention the water heater is the first or second largest consumer of energy in the home so if you're if you're not running ac then your water heater is your largest consumer of energy in the home and if it's not optimized like you know you optimize your car you optimize all these other things these cost centers in your life but nobody pays attention to this hidden device that's sitting in your home but it's it's you're paying for it every month well see i learned something new because you see you said you should drain your water heater once a year i thought it was once every 15 years and i'm draining mine in about two weeks now because i'm putting a new water heater in yeah yeah once a year you're supposed to drain your your tank well i'm replacing my water heater not because there's nothing wrong with it but because i'm in the property management business i i've learned i'd rather do it now before i have a burst and i have a insurance claim and all those things on top of it because uh believe me after about 15 years you're it's about the useful life of a water heater before you have a risk of a leak so i'm putting that into effect i notice in your in your thing you say you track all this data and and i i'm just reading this that says um monthly reports you provide those to the owner or is it to the association or so we can and the utility can also provide some usage data for the building and they can do some comparisons with other buildings in the area and you know you can't measure what you you can't understand we can't measure right and and we feel that getting these reports in your hand and you can actually see it it really helps you to to kind of paint a picture of how you can be more energy efficient more energy cautious and and i think that's a great way to engage with your tenants or your if it's a you know a condo association then your your homeowners um because again you just don't know but if you have the data then you can go out and actually make some changes so i know associations in some cases have or everybody has their own electric meter most common associations they all have a central water meter but the electric meter is individual and sometimes it's a central meter for everybody they just submit or build out accordingly does it work for both types of buildings right and so the master meter you'll you would you would receive the credit you would be a much larger credit because you're going to get all that capacity all that kilowatt usage to one meter and so then it would be up to the building owner or the building manager to decide what they want to do do you want they want to use that to do repairs or bring down the monthly association fee but that bill credit would go to this single um rate payer yeah i think i haven't thought this through i know we're going to be talking about some test buildings with our company um whether you would want to take the fee and have the owner see the five dollar credit or the three dollar credit to encourage participation understanding why we're doing this program you know it's certainly occasionally issuing a report to the unit owners how it's affected you know what's what's going on but only promote your business and and validate it and um so what kind of reception you get when you're going out through with people right and i think that's that's important we do a lot of surveying um we've done that this through our pilot projects and whatnot and and even above the bill credit what people have said over and over again that the fact that they know that they're helping the state achieve its energy goals we were the first state in the nation to set a hundred percent renewable energy target and that is really awesome and that's an incredible thing to think about and be proud of but oftentimes you know if you're in an apartment and especially if you're a renter how do you do that you're not getting solar you're probably not driving an electric vehicle you're not getting batteries home batteries but here's a way to participate and people feel really positive about that and they want to participate and um and so this is just another way to get people engaged and excited about where they live and i think that's really important is having pride in where you live in this control or the device i'm assuming it's hardwired into your utilities you don't have to change batteries or anything like that yeah it's hardwired and no no battery changes and those things use very little electricity right when we've done studies to make sure that we're not adding any load to the to the bill and we're not so if you know we're getting near the end of our show so people want to if they're interested in this this association what do they do they should send you an email contact you they i know you're we were talking earlier that we're looking for maybe starting some of these in july but um you know the reality of it is you said you have an initial capacity of 2,500 units so if you want to get in early you should probably sign up early i would think absolutely so you could email me forest at shiftedenergy.com and i'm a forest with one r that'd be the best way and i would love to come out and meet with any of the property managers meet with tenants and homeowners and discuss more about the program that's forest with one r at shiftedenergy.com and you also have the ability to contact us here at think tech if you didn't write that down or don't know and say please send us the contact information and we will get it to you but i would say in general as you summed up this is supporting our energy goals which is wonderful number two you're getting a credit which is wonderful number three potentially reducing utility costs and i say that it may not be your personal electric meter but certainly by reducing our demand of purchasing fossil fuels certainly helps maintain the rate basis for a Hawaiian electric company absolutely especially you can reduce that there's pluses to get up to the technology age and and have your board consider this program i know that our company is going to send out notices to our major clients and that would this criteria fit into and suggest they take a look at this at their board and so i think it's a wonderful program we should be very happy to is there any downside to this not participating yes the big downside right but no it's it's it's really seamless it's invisible you won't even know it's there other than the you know the 15 minutes that we're doing the installation um you won't even know the we're there and to all of our guests out there you can think about think tech Hawaii and kind of insider and said hey we're nothing for free they bought a way to save me 50 60 dollars a year not for one year but forever more and also do good for our environment i want to thank you for being on the show today yeah it's always a pleasure i'm always excited by your program and i know i'm going to beat on you to come make a presentation to our property managers and to all of you in condo world out there you should talk to your board and talk about this program and email farce and he can send you a flyer on this program and he's willing to come out to your condo board and discuss it with you i think this is the wave of the future and think about getting it on the ground floor in the meantime i would tell you that we're going to have condo insider again next week and we're changing some of our format so you're going to see a little bit more of like case studies of reviewing what happened in a real condo case and a learning curve as well as some more educational material on the new laws as well as the existing laws your ethics responsibilities things along that line on that note i want to thank each and every one of you for giving up your valuable time to watch condo insider and we will see you next week and aloha


Our next guest is Chief Charlene Gale from Canada, an indigenous leader and member of Fort Nelson First Nation, chair of the First Nations Major Projects Coalition, an on-profit organization helping First Nations make informed business decisions concerning major project development. Thank you so much for being here today. Thank you for having me, Masi.  So, as an indigenous person, we are very connected to our lands and our airs and our water. We're very traditional people where we still utilize the borewell forest as our grocery store. So, harvesting is something that we do in seasonal rounds in our communities, where we fish, we hunt, and we trap. There's a lot of benefit and beauty that comes from that and that way of life. In the Fort Nelson First Nation territory, we have many villages, and our territory is the size of Switzerland. So, when you think about us as indigenous people, we're not just on this small little land base. We have a huge responsibility, and especially as a chief. We have to ensure that we're aware of our surroundings. And so, when First Contact came, a lot of our people were pushed on to reserve, and our parents were sent to residential school. And many of you may have heard of those atrocities. However, we do have indigenous people and elders that still live in our villages today and live the traditional way. So, we have a huge responsibility to ensure that future generations will be able to understand our way of life and be able to continue those practices into time memorial. When I talk about those kind of things, what our elders are seeing through climate change is massive forest fires. One of the forest fires in our community was the size of Vancouver, which is a huge, huge city in the province of British Columbia, Canada. And this has been brought on because of drought conditions. And the drought conditions are coming because we're not seeing the amount of rain that we're normally used to. So, muskeg, as we're known as muskeg and mountain people, are starting to dry up. When we go to go pick berries, we're noticing that the bounty isn't there. With the less snow that we have, and just like recently, we went from minus 30 to plus 12. So, with that brings a lot of melt and a fine crust over the snow. And the mousse, you know, they use their nose to like move into the snow and get to the roots of different vegetations. And when that fine crust of ice goes on top of the snow, it makes it really challenging for them to be able to harvest or to get their food. Other things that we're seeing is that even with fish, like some through industrial development, we're seeing that where our people have fished for thousands of years, they're setting nets because they can't believe that the fish aren't there anymore. So, there's a lot of concerns as we go into climate change, you know, there's flooding, there's windstorms, and just things that we haven't traditionally have been able to witness as we go into the future. It's just changing dramatically. So, we are seeing the change as Indigenous people. All of the changes that you mentioned, is it concerned raised by kind of the elderly, people who still have a more traditional lifestyle? Is it the youth? I mean, in terms of your community, what are people saying?  Yeah, we're definitely concerned. This comes from all ages because through our traditional teachings, everything's passed down orally through our ancestors and through our elders. And so, at the Fort Nelson First Nation, we have an elementary school that we've had an operation for 42 years. And we bus non-Indigenous kids to our school, so they learn our language, they learn our culture, and they learn the ways of the land. When you're out there, you can see the different, the way the animals move and what they're doing. And so, for an example, our elders can even look at what a bee is doing. So, with the bees are building their nest underground, we know that we're going to have a little bit of less snow. If they're building them high up in the trees, then we know that we're going to have a very nice winter with lots of snow. So, these practices and teachings have been passed down. It's called traditional knowledge. And so, when we make decisions about projects, we have to incorporate that scientific knowledge along with our traditional knowledge. That's fascinating. You also have a background in the oil and gas industry. Could you tell us more about your journey and what made you decide to advocate for Indigenous representation? So, as a young person growing up in Fort Nelson area, I started off in high school working at the mill, a local mill that processed lumber. And so, my job was we can clean up, we would go there, we'd clean out the glue bins, blow out the dryers, and so forth. And that provided a really good livelihood for a teenager growing up on her own in Fort Nelson. And after high school, I ended up going to post-secondary and getting a job at an oil and gas facility, which is about 20 kilometers just outside of our home community. And it provided a really good paying job in the Fort Nelson First Nation. There's only so many opportunities if you want to do good and raise your family. So, I'm very proud of the work that I did there. I'm very proud of what I've learned there. And, you know, just being able to be around a lot of professionals in the corporate world, it gave me a lot of skills to be able to bring that to my community when I became a chief to ensure that, you know, our practices are up to standard. For an example, recently about, like, time doesn't matter as a First Nation person. I said recently, it was five years ago. So, five years ago, we started looking at our investments. We started looking at our practices, even for financial. And so, we got a part of this process, which was the FNB, which, you know, we want to follow international standards for our finances and making sure that we're accountable that way. But just going back to working for oil and gas, it really gave me a real understanding to apply those things that are so important to our community. But with that, we had a different kind of technology that came in, and it was fracking. And our people were so used to the conventional way of processing oil and gas, whereas fracking used a lot of water. And it really opened up our land base in a short period of time, where our land users, our hunters, our trappers, our gatherers were starting to see enormous changes in six months, in a year, in a year and a half to two years, where massive amounts of water were being drained from our territory. The muskeg was drying up. You know, we talked about the fish, the animals were starting to move away from the area. And these are all things that our people depend on every year to be able to sustain ourselves. And so with that, we decided that we would bring a delegation to Victoria, where decisions are made in our province, to talk about these issues, because in Fort Nelson, we have such a small population base. And we felt it was important that the rest of British Columbians knew what was happening, so that we could get support on finding a new way to find best practices to be able to be a part of the industry, because our people have worked for oil and gas for over 70 years. But I do have to say that just through many boom and bust cycles, which we're currently in a bust, we were able to look at other opportunities to be involved in the clean energy space through geothermal. And so when an old gas well that depleted, that had been providing revenues to our community for over 50 years dried up, we started exploring other opportunities. And through Geoscience BC, who did initial studies to see what was happening underground, gave us the potential to realize that we had some heat sources underneath there to be able to do geothermal. And so we got really excited about that, and it's been quite the journey to be able to repurpose an old oil and gas well for geothermal. I have several questions in my mind now, but I mean, historically, you mentioned that Indigenous communities have been involved in the oil and gas industry for 70 years. And so you were part of that as well. Is the energy transition an opportunity to involve Indigenous communities even more in the local energy sector? As you were mentioning, you know, this geothermal project, for example. It's in a very exciting time for our people because this geothermal facility, it's called Tudeka. We have a website online if you'd like to learn a little bit more about it, but it's 100% Indigenous owned by our own people. So there's the opportunity to ensure that, you know, at the top level, we have people sitting on the board of directors. Our people will be having opportunities to have management positions and so forth. Traditionally, in the oil and gas play, we were always at the lowest of the totem pole where a lot of our members were working in seasonal work. So spring would come along and they would be laid off. So they weren't really meaningful jobs. Then there's a few that, you know, have jobs that were full time, like myself that worked at the Fort Nelson gas plant. But yeah, I think that there's been similar experiences across Turtle Island for First Nations where, you know, it's been seasonal. It hasn't really been meaningful. And, you know, you see billions of dollars leaving our territory without hardly any benefits coming to the community. So that's why just going back to your first question, it was really important for me to find a new way to be able to be involved in this conversation so that we could help other First Nations that are trying to do what we achieved, find their place in being able to build clean energy projects. Is the geothermal plant up and running as we speak, or is it a project? So right now we're looking at having it turnkey by 2026. And it is challenging. I mean, this is something that's really new to the Fort Nelson First Nation. We, with the support of the First Nation Major Projects Coalition and Canada through NRCan, we were able to get a $40 million grant. And with that grant, we've been able to seek capacity support through the Coalition, which we provide free of charge to our members. But, you know, there's so much commercial things that need to be done to be able to get to this point. Well, that's legal support, you know, geotechnical studies, engineering, and you name it. I mean, this is all something that's new to my First Nation. I can only imagine what other First Nations are thinking when they get involved in projects like that. We need that support. We need that professional view on how do we proceed so that we can go back to our members and, you know, share this information with them so they can make an informed decision on do we proceed or not. The power generated, is it going to be mostly for local needs or do you think you're going to export it elsewhere to Canada? Well, as a First Nation, and as, you know, we have a Crown Corporation, BC Hydro, who, you know, doesn't really like to go off their mandate of inviting others in to be able to sell power to whoever they like. But as an Indigenous person, I feel that is our sovereign right towards self-determination to be able to do that. And we're in a quite unique situation because the Fort Nelson First Nation is, gets their power off the Fort Nelson gas plant, which we know is a dirty fuel. And with the Town of Fort Nelson, you need about seven megawatts of power to run the whole town and industrial field. This project is estimated to be able to produce 15 megawatts. And so the unique part of that is we can totally transform our territory by running on a clean energy. And with the other excess energy, we're able to, perhaps, sell it to Alberta because there's already existing power lines that run towards Alberta, which is roughly about, I'd say, two to four hours away, you know, if you're driving on an ice road because the Old Indian Trail still exists, you just can't use it seasonally. You just drive on that road and you have to like create an ice road. But our cousins are over there. And to me, being able to provide clean energy to them would be so meaningful. For First Nation people, borders don't exist. And we're separated by many of our families through borders, whether that's Northwest Territories, the Yukon, and Alberta, because we're in the northeast corner of British Columbia. So everyone is really close and everyone used to use our rivers as our highways. And, you know, dogs led to do our seasonal rounds and go visit different communities. But ultimately, I feel that this is a real opportunity for even the spin-off opportunities that's like building 100 greenhouses. And what's coming out of the brine are the critical minerals. Can we provide another opportunity to be involved in the clean energy space? But food security is a big one. I don't know if you guys ever traveled up to Northwest Territories or the Yukon are even further. But it gets really expensive for food. And, you know, a state can cost you $80. And the watermelon can be on the shelf for $40, a pack of water $60. So the costs are huge. So we can really change the way we're living and provide affordable food and so forth through the spin-off opportunities. That all sounds really fascinating. I mean, all the best of luck with that geothermal power plant. I hope it, you know, it comes on the grid as quickly as possible. And kind of speaking of Canada's net zero road map, in what ways do you think that could have an impact on indigenous communities or maybe be an opportunity in what you've just described? And how do you ensure that, you know, there's actually an inclusive transition? I think our project, you know, really gives other First Nations hope and the idea that they can do this. You know, we can be a part of the clean energy strategy and we are. Other than municipalities and governments, First Nations are the biggest owner of green energy projects across Canada, whether that's solar, geothermal, wind. And it's a fascinating time for all of us because we're all learning together. And it's a new space. So I think that, you know, when countries think about getting involved in clean energy projects with indigenous people, they should ensure that they're done through indigenous reconciliation. And they should also ensure that, you know, these projects are accelerating decarbonization of our economies. And that, you know, to be able to do that is to ensure that we put policy mechanisms in place that are creating opportunities for indigenous people, whether that's through equity, addressing systematic, you know, atrocities that have happened to us, correcting the wrongs and making them rights. But one of the things that we've been really advocating for in Canada is ensuring that we have indigenous loan guarantees so that we can finance these projects, providing capacity support for indigenous nations so that we can do our land use plans to be able to develop our traditional territories. Land use plans are really important because they really identify no go zones for industry. And in our community, we've been putting buffers around our village sites. We've been putting buffers around our waterways and sacred sites and places that our people want to protect because in the past, when industry has come in, it was really sad to hear from some of the younger generation when they hear that, you know, I used to go hunting with my grandfather in this space and we went back there 20 years later and it was a cut block and it had totally been cleared out by forestry. And so that's why land use plans are so important. But the capacity support can also help address commercial structures and understanding what that means. But it also provides economic analysis for the project and to be able to bring that information back to our members because our members are the ones that are going to give us the yes or no if we can move ahead on projects. And it's really important that indigenous consent is a part of that because in Canada, we sign treaties and their peace and friendship treaties. They weren't seed and surrender treaties. And I know that has been forgotten by the newcomers, but our ancestors have always told us and I talked about the oral history, which is so important. We pass that down to our children. My son is nine years old and he understands what treaty is and we celebrate it every year. But I think that offering incentives for indigenous people from industry and government is going to be the key moving forward. How can regulators facilitate indigenous participation? Any models that are worth replicating across Canada? Well, regulators have a very complex role. Everyone seems to look at it as a competition. I talked about those borders as an indigenous person. I think if we could break down those borders and be able to work with our cousins, we would find new ways. And when I talk about cousins, I mean, I'm talking about even North America. As an indigenous person, I should be able to sell power to the tribes in the United States if I want, let alone my cousins in Alberta or NWT. So there's a lot of work to do for regulators and utilities and especially in the space of how they can support indigenous ownership in these clean energy projects. One of the projects that we were really proud to support is in Ontario where we worked with Hydro One to ensure that there was 50% equity offered to any indigenous nations on any green fields going forward. And that is a win. And I really encourage other provinces and territories and other countries to really adopt that model. Because moving forward, especially in Canada, any projects that are built are always going to be built on indigenous lands. And we need to realize that indigenous consent is very important in those processes because first nations have rights and titles. And the courts have always sided with us. That's the last place I want to be is in court winning another case. I rather work with my treaty partners. I rather work with industry and government and sit at the table with them and make decisions together. I think that's important in the way going forward. Another one in my home province in BC Hydro, they are doing a call for power, which ensures that any clean energy projects that are going forward, that they have to have indigenous partnership and ownership, a part of it for you to be able to be eligible. So currently with our geothermal facility, we're negotiating our rates. And through the support of the First Nation Major Projects Coalition, we're looking at financing and getting all those really fine pieces together so that we're successful. If we talk about the needs of kind of civil society at large in Canada, but also indigenous communities, how do you separate the two? How do you differentiate between the two and the government and regulators in Canada equipped to support indigenous participation in Canada? Well, I think merely offering First Nations low equity is not the answer. I talked about the 50% model. Our people have been through enough. And I think that Sharon, she talked about indigenous lands and having an important conversation there with nations about equity. It's not that we are against development. We want to be a part of development. That's a meaningful way where we're part of the discussion where we have opportunities for, I talked about, a loan guarantee. The loan guarantees are really important. And we've been advocating that for over a decade. That's a lot of work. And I'm happy to say that the Canadian government has confirmed this program in the next budget. But you know, those details are forthcoming in the spring. And we know that there's going to be a lot of work to do. And we have to keep on that to ensure that this program is set out in a way that can be utilized by many First Nations in Canada. It's something that I really encourage other countries to do. And I think it's really important. Just talking to our ambassador, she talked about how 14 members of the IEA are going to be at this conference.  So I really encourage them to look at indigenous loan guarantees and really include First Nations and put them at the forefront of this energy transition because as First People, we have always ensured that we were going to have a sustainable economy. We always found the solutions to be able to move forward. And I think that we'll be able to expedite these projects if indigenous inclusion is directly involved and that we respect their rights entitled to the land and, you know, listen to the people and the elders that are making sure that they're a part of this transition. One final question, and that is the same question that I asked before. If you had a magic wand and could change anything about the world for a more sustainable planet, what would it be? Well, I'd probably, if I had a magic wand, I would probably totally erase first contact from our whole history because I think that as First People, you know, we have always been able to find the solutions to move forward. And, you know, one thing that I always say is never underestimate the ability of my people because they are so resilient and they're so strong in their thought process. And I think that, you know, this world would probably be a better place if we were just left alone. We'd probably be advanced, more advanced than any other humankind if we weren't, you know, put up with the challenge of trying to defend and take care of our language and our way of life. But if you would ask me this question 10 years ago, I would probably say it wouldn't be great if solar was affordable. Well, we did that. Or I would say, you know, wouldn't it be great if we could, you know, store this energy from wind and solar? Well, check, we did that. But I think ultimately is we don't need no magic wand. And I think that's what got us in this pickle altogether to be able to move forward on this clean energy technology. And I think that just by working together, you know, with the thought process of having a sustainable planet with a vibrant, you know, a vibrant, vibrant economy where we can ensure that our net zero goals are achieved collectively. I think that the more people you invite into this conversation, the more successful we're going to be. And I all invite you to come travel up the Alaska highway and come visit us at mile 300 at the Fort Nelson First Nation. I think like it's going to be pretty amazing as we move into the next decade of our lives because, you know, that fresh food and, you know, that clean energy and the pride and the strength and our people that that's going to bring is going to be tremendous. So I look forward to inviting you to the Fort Nelson First Nation territory must see. Thank you so much.