r the public uh I mean it's just good design if there's a fire or some other emergency at the end of the cul-de-sac in a fire truck or on Mount Pollock's and somebody needs to get up there and you've got people parking on both sides of Mount Pollock's Drive then you know I don't I don't think anybody wants to see what happens there so having on site parking the way that this has been designed is really just good design and as as far as the lights go you know again we would suggest that there's a condition that requires that these be downcast and to not cause we'll say um light pollution and I think hopefully with that you know the board feels comfortable enough to to allow it understanding just how minimal these lights really are right I think those are the those would be the items that we'd address it's like a chime in really quick there firstly I want to apologize to my neighbors for not realizing I had a mailbox outside their house it's probably why we haven't crossed paths outside on the street but I look forward to meeting you and regret this is kind of the the first opportunity we have you've done a great job with the house over there which kind of sat quiet for a long time I would just add to Tom's reasons about the parking that we did consider a configuration where the garage might be to the east of the house and of course the parking and the driveway are going to be associated with the garage and in that condition we end up with the houses essentially right next to each other and we felt it was preferable to have the garage as a bit of a screen between the two houses we do know it's an ongoing concern for the neighbors with the the potential light and sound pollution we saw that with the last project and we think we've come up with a good solution by proposing the first go around a significant amount of vegetative screening and then adding in some fencing and I agree with Tom's comments on the lights as well I think that a condition that makes sure that we're not spreading light out beyond the property it's enshrined in the bylaw already and we plan to meet that criteria and not pollute with light onto the street Mr. Chair there is a new another person that has joined us by phone yeah Joyce if it's you press star nine which will indicate that you want to speak but please continue and we'll wait for the person to press star nine if they wish to speak oh the person's raise their hand all right all right Joyce phone number ending in 3834 can you hear me now I'm going to suggest that you shut off your computer for a minute or walk away from your computer because it's echoing okay so it turns out I'm so sorry that it sounds like our the microphone on our computer is not working that's fine okay so my name is Sam Gladstone and my wife is Joyce Duncan and I got to try to calm down with trying to get to talk to you because this is a big thing for us so I'd like to start off by giving you a little history of this property because a good question was asked by Mrs. Mr. Maxfield and I don't think the full story was given so we moved here in 1986 and we were actually sold the house by Greg's mother Ellen Stutzman was our realtor and when we bought it she told us this the property that Greg is now wanting to develop would never be developed because it was actually owned by five people so there were five people along southeast street that had chipped in to buy this lot so it would never be developed Greg bought as as he said he bought the house on southeast street in 1210 and then unbeknownst to us there was never a for sale sign never any information anywhere that I saw that in 12 in 2012 the property was actually divided up in five as far as I understand Greg would know better and Greg this I know in 2012 he bought from Sonya Sofield who lives across from him across Mount Pollock's on southeast street for $8,000 this the property so that now he could do what he wants to do there was I surely would have paid more than $8,000 and again there was no information about this then in 2014 while Greg was on the zoning board on the planning board the zoning planning board recommended to the town council to create this supplemental detached dwelling unit as accessory to a one-family detached dwelling which is now what Greg is using to to do this project now I've been on all night watching and surely this presentation is very impressive you know surely if we all have seen you know saw the previous one it was completely different so this is a very beautiful project and but the problem is if you if you go back and look look at the overall project it is like at our house it's not by the house that it's supposed to be a supplemental to and they have chosen you know I've been told by someone who is on the zoning board with Greg that he knows the rules better than anybody in town so there's nothing that they're planning that is not within the rules so the building is 800 feet but there's two porches and there's two decks and there's an office over the garage and the whole thing could be cited much closer to his house now it might mean that some of the a tiny bit of his plantings might get shaded by the the screened in porch that's going to be over the terrace in the north side just a little but it would get it away from our house and it makes no you know Tom really says that Carsey's worried about the fire and cars parked on both sides of the street cars are never parked on both sides of the street and if they were it's a huge street there would be no trouble getting fire trucks up there so that the idea that you have four spaces two of them which are basically you know right up to the property line why because the you have no laws about parking you don't have in any law laws about about the driveway you have a law about building so the building is 25 feet from the side so I would request that you make this whole project move set move towards the east he's decided he wants his house 38 feet back from Mount Pollock's so it could be nice for him but that and but he's pushed that you know let it be 25 feet away from Mount Pollock's and and he can move the whole project much further west I came out when you did the site visit I didn't know it was you Maureen Maureen said I couldn't be there so I just asked if if the if people would look on the other side of the cedars that's the property line I don't know if you did it's a very unusual house where we live it originally was 14 sided that and and it turns out unfortunately that the part that is closest to our property line is our bedroom and my wife loves to sleep with fresh air so the windows are open and she often likes the blinds open and we are very concerned and objective very strongly to to being so close because we're worried about noise and I'm very thankful for what Mr. Langsdale said about the lighting we're worried about lighting already it's unusual but sometimes people trying to get up to Mount Pollock's come come on the street and if it's nighttime and we're in bed and they go around the circle we will see the lights in our bedroom and we can only imagine what's going to happen when if you allow this parking turnaround and I want to reassert that nobody turns around and in a garage there's completely no reason this is a there's only two houses past what Greg wants to put in this is not a main street this is not like strong street or East Pleasant Street or Southeast Street so it seems totally unnecessary to have it have those two extra spots and I think I would like the the driveway to be at least 25 feet away our house is actually 49 our bedroom is 49 feet away from the property line I'd like the closest thing that Greg builds be 49 feet away from our property line let me like you chairman said I've got to try to settle down and look at some of the notes it's interesting that the the Ms. Chao said it's a small modest footprint it's a small modest footprint because the maximum allowed is 800 feet and that's what it is but I would like someone to be able to tell me how much is the footprint if you include the two porches the garage and the uh the two decks it's it's outrageous that this is what's been done with what as uh again I'm sorry I don't know all your names someone sort of suggested that usually what you see is this is a dwelling attached to the to the dwelling that's already there you know you know as if you know my kids own this property and we got too old and they wanted to help us out and have us close to them that's not what's going on here we are very concerned about the privacy if you allow this to go forward we're worried that there's a window in the garage that looks right onto our property and if you allow it to go forward we would like you even though it's not allowed but we would like you to allow them to have an eight foot fence and aesthetically before I would agree with the forest green uh that it be eight feet so you know to try to protect us as best we can from the noise and the light that we're really concerned about I just want to uh I'm almost done just kind of sum it up if you would please so so the proposal would not constitute a nuisance due to noise and light that's 10.382 the proposal would not be a substantial inconvenience 10.383 the the proposal protects the adjoining premises against detrimental or offensive uses that's 10.385 the proposal provides protection of adjacent properties by minimizing the intrusion of lights including parking lot and exterior lighting that's 10.393 the proposal may improve the view the zoning board may improve sitback side and rear yards graded in the minimum required by the boy love 10.4 so you know Greg is a very nice person he would he is a good neighbor he will be a good neighbor I know but but he should be closer to the house that he owns not closer to my to our house so I'm going to give this over to my wife Joyce Duncan oh she says I've said it all she gave me notes so uh I really uh want to just thank you I'm amazed and you know that you give your time to serve on on this important board and you've been at it now for uh two and a half hours just thank you thank you um I guess we give the chance to respond and then we'll have questions from comments from the board or so I guess if I could I would got um maybe one slide to show where Ms. Chalf has overlaid the proposed site plan with the with the GIS map I don't know if everybody can see it up there but effectively this just gives a little bit of context I think the proximity you're giving on I'm gonna thank you thank you thanks Maureen um just gives a little bit of context of proximity to the adjacent dwelling and topography and I think you can see just with the topo lines you know what this site asks for and I think the way that Maria Tom and Greg designed it is to give the site what it asked for I mean this is just this is the natural um place for this supplemental dwelling I'd have to disagree uh with the abutter that you know if it was my parents I might not mind having a little bit of yard in in between us so I think you know folks are changing how like supplemental dwellings um will exist I think the lighting is probably something that we should talk about you know I don't know where the board's at on it I I know where Mr. Langsdale is and and Mr. Chairman I don't know where you are but maybe it's if you know is the condition going to do it I guess is the question yeah I'm not sure I'd like to get some more information as to how the one abutter who's not next door but who's I think across the street is impacted by that the wash of light on the the front of the house that's right I seem to understand that that they were concerned that they would see this big broad piece of of a flat space that would be um lit up and I thought that was their concern is that did I understand that correctly and can you respond to that is it this a butter here where my mouse is I'm not sure I think so because I thought they said they were next to I that's I thought it was that house across the over if I could yes it is that house 25 uh Mount Pollock's Drive had the concern about the lights as well yeah okay and their concern was more about how it washes the front of the house more so than um and more more than washing the uh the ground and I don't know how you can solve that problem with that form of lighting it kind of sounds like we're we're stuck between a rock and a hard place where somebody doesn't want it to illuminate the ground somebody doesn't want it to illuminate the the front facade of the house and so you know who wins here does it does it help if is it better to put them straight down is it better to reduce to maybe three of them on that south side just to reduce the number because I think you know the deck area here that's pretty well shielded I think what you've got on top of the garage is is really functional and if there's anything frankly I think it's on the south side and and what do we do there and so I guess you know condition was our first suggestion save for that not working is it reducing it to to a lesser number like like three or something like that I'm not sure if that's but that's something to consider the board will consider in terms of conditions here conditioning to not to wash or to reduce the number okay um is there any and maybe Rob more I could tell me is there any limitation or is there any restriction on how close a driveway or a parking area can be to the lot line or to the neighbors I I don't think there is but Maureen do you happen to happen to know no there there is no setback for the driveway or parking area all right thank you all right there any other questions from the board and then we'll move to we'll close the hearing Mr. Chair I do see two people raising their hand well actually one's Joyce but her microphone doesn't work but Michael Morgan is raising his hand I think he spoke already did all right let's should we Mr. Morgan can you let me press it all right on on you Mr. Morgan I think he is he's taking himself off oh okay Mr. Maxfield uh yeah I believe Mr. Duncan suggested uh he's okay with an eight foot fence there um I guess my question would be to uh most Mr. Duncan and Mr. Stutzman um would an eight foot fence uh along that area between your house and the property line would would that resolve uh the issues of that that property or that structure being built where it's built is would and if so would that be something that uh Mr. Stutzman is amenable to so I'd be perfectly amenable to it unfortunately we're putting in the largest fence the bylaw allows the maximum is four feet in the front setback and six feet beyond that front setback when it's along the property line as this is so we're proposing the maximum that the bylaw allows I will say that um in the probably four years I've had those arbor vitae they've grown about four feet and I'm happy to provide some tall arbor vitae to supplement that fence height I think it would be a nice amenity for us and it would help to increase the intensity of the screening Mr. Chair Michael Morgan is raising his hand hello hello hello are we there yeah we're there yeah okay okay this is Fanny Rothschild um I want to explain where we live I I still don't feel like it's clear about strife and it is not the access to Mt. Paul's conservation area so people do not come very rarely do they come very hardly ever mostly walking they they do not come and park and go up Mt. Paul's it actually is private property to walk up that side there are signs that say private property people do not come that we do not have a lot of cars there we do not have cars or people parking to walk up Mt. Paul's Mt. Paul's conservation area is about four or five houses further south on southeast street there's an access road and it says Mt. Paul's conservation area you drive up that and you park so people do not come and park on Mt. Paul's Drive they may occasionally come and drive on the drive looking for the parking area and then they leave so we do not have not as I said nine cars parking we have one or two at the most and they're usually Sam's and Joyce's family um so again I do not see the need for a turnaround we back onto this quiet street where we have two houses and now we'll have three um again I feel like the turnaround is incredibly close to Sam's house Sam and Joyce's house the Gladstone and Duncan house I do not see why the turnaround is needed so so there's the others it's not there will be access to ambulances and fire engines there's not other cars parking there it's not an access to Mt. Paul's conservation area the other question that I did not get answered is will these lights these flood lights be on all night how often are they on I don't understand that question in a second we're still talking about the lights so I think you appreciate your comments and I think we many of them we've heard before and it's good to hear them again so I did have a question about the lights of where they'd be um motion sensitive or um how there would be what's your plan for the lighting sure so kind of through the the beauty of technology we're able you know our side of things is able to speak um I guess as far as the lighting goes the I think the garage would be a switch and those wouldn't be on all night you know the socket lights at the garage the same thing with the socket lights on the easterly side of the garage and the westerly side of the house illuminating that deck in in this area if you're still looking at the screen right in there I think those are on a switch as well uh and wouldn't be on all night and then for these soffits here I you know hopefully this helps get across the finish line hearing that you know Mr. Langsdale had a concern and that the neighbors are having some concern why don't we scrap those soffit lights and put two sconces one on each side of that entry door to make sure that it illuminates you know the stairs and the path sufficiently identifies the house and just get away from you know Mr. Langsdale's concern about it being high get away from the neighbor's concern about it washing against the building and just put more of a traditional sconce slide and call it a day if that's okay all right we could make that you can change that on the plan or make that a condition yeah if it it would be great if that's a condition and then we can submit it to the planning department prior to receipt of a building permit sconces all right and is there a limit on is our eight foot fences permitted by special permit or is it the hard and fast but we cannot permit an eight foot fence I think we need a variance I think yeah but I'm wondering as well uh under 6.29 I was looking at that myself here and we're not doing a variance uh well we're all correct me if I'm wrong but I believe uh I mean 6.29 is not listed in this application so it wouldn't be applicable for this public hearing but seems that well um yeah so 6.24 is the this section that has the um the limit on the size of the fence the height of the fence but 6.29 does a lot of modification of that if the board was interested in exploring that yeah for a higher with that have to be done in a separate um special permit it's not referenced yet Rob I sense uh I think that's up to you I think I think in this case the fence was part of the application and if the board felt modification was needed one way or the other up or down I think that they can make that adjustment so I would I would be okay you know suggesting that you could modify the height under 6.29 in this application all right thank you mr maxfield um yeah before we you go down this route um I just would like to know if it's possible get an answer from uh mr mrs dunkin uh would an eight foot fence uh solve their concerns it's actually Gladstone oh I'm sorry that's uh they have oh I thought they had raised their hands they expressed uh press star nine um Gladstone because I I can't remember which I think I'm just gonna go for it Sam Sam Sam is here okay Sam can you hear me yes oh hallelujah so I want to go back to we're all looking at the same thing now I think of the plot right in Mount Pollock's Drive in southeast street can you hear me yes we can hear you we're looking at that but I want you to focus your comments on the eight foot fence no no no hold let let me just that's not fair please let me just because Tom I totally disagree with what he said you can see that if he they were willing to move the house south and east then you would be able to move the house further away from the property line we it's just that they want to be 38 feet back but that puts them right against our property so and you haven't addressed at the driveway even though it's allowed is closer than 25 feet and these extra spaces are closer than 25 feet it you're you're dealing with lighting which is great and I'm thankful for that and yes having an eight foot fence would surely be better but there's no reason that the whole project can't be moved southeast and it would not if you look at the lay of the land it could easily happen thank you mr gladstone dr gladstone thank you dr gladstone did that answer your question mr maxfield I believe so I guess it it doesn't solve all the issues but it would help it solves yep it helps all right any other comments or questions from the board I'd like to move to the public meeting air on this if the board is ready to Maria chow are you go ahead Maria tonight or yeah if that's fine we're moving on to a motion or decision that's fine I was just going to answer mr gladstone's question but oh what were your next steps mr judge what were you proposing no I might is to move to the public meetings and making decisions but if you have something pertinent to respond to mr gladstone you should do it now and before we and then we're going to move to the public meeting section gotcha okay very quickly we can't we can't really move the house south what happens is with the grading we're not able to have a walkout basement we would have to excavate significantly there'd be a lot more cut into the site in order to have the basement to go to grade on the north and so that's the reason why the house is actually situated that far back in order to reduce them out in order to balance the cut and fill that was the ideal location that tom benjamin and I found as far as not having to create a lot more fill that needs to be accounted for on the site so that's it okay all right I think we should move to the decision-making aspect and what I'd like to do is leave the hearing open while we while we open up the public meeting so if there is a need for further comments we can do that but I'd like to open now the public meeting on this and this in the public meeting is principally a way for the board to discuss what they would like to do no questions they have and to and to identify conditions that they want to impose should they support a should they support the the application so I think we hear a couple of conditions that are important one the conditions I'd like to go run through those first addition dealing with the the lights that there are there are fewer lights and that you know the exact wording of that morning there were fewer lights and that they would be they would not they're gone from the front of the house is that right the lights have gone from the front of the house so the condition that they would not wash or the the front of the house and they would not be lighting but instead there'd be two sconces on the side of the door yes how mr. Langsdale you have some strong feelings about that does that satisfy your concerns yeah that's that's good thank you all right secondly we have we've talked about an eight foot fence which we would have to which we could permit under 6.24 that seems to me that would minimize or at least reduce the problems with the neighbors is there general support for that and is there any problems with any member of the board on an eight foot fence miss parks I thought mr. Stutzman was talking about perhaps putting more arbor vd so that the fence didn't uh didn't need to be higher I I don't know what his position on that is if he prefers is does not want to do an eight foot fence as that's a more imposing structure fine eight foot fence okay and can I just ask one additional question so you are building a basement and but it's not counted in the square footage and it's only going to be for storage and so I guess that makes me want to go why do you need a basement so again 800 square feet is a pretty small house so we have minimal storage on the main living floor really minimal I'm not coming from a huge house but I'm coming from one where I have a space for storing lawn equipment whatnot and I plan to be needing more of that as we have more to maintain with Tom Benjamin's great plan there's going to be a lot of maintenance to do so I think your main question is is that finished habitable space down there and the answer is no and I think a condition to that effect was discussed okay okay we do not need to make that a condition it's not it can't be habitable space can it oh it would violate then would violate the don't want to be ordered more than they hurt you and is there an office above the garage I had considered one but it's not part of this proposal all right um um so I'm going through other conditions that we discussed on the prop in the project application report um there's some standard conditions first of all that things have to be built to plan as provided by to the staff as provided to the town all rooms have to be labeled on the following improved floor plan a 10 um no one family which is supplemental apartment is constructed or upon the property of which the supplemental dwelling unit is is built maybe use simultaneously for an accessory lodging under any provisions of section 5.010 or any supplemental unit built upon the property such one family dwelling is to be so used um one of the properties one of the units on this property is going to be owner occupied um the unit shall not be occupied by this new unit will not be occupied by more than three adults the management plan the complaint response plan shall be followed and any changes to those you'll return to the zoning board of appeals for a public meeting um we still want to have the lighting restrictions that they be downcast and dark staff compliant we don't want to move that remove that condition any dwelling unit the property rented shall be registered permitted in accordance with the residential rental law street numbers for both dwelling units shall be clearly marked with reflective signage parking shall occur on improved services only the parking area shall be maintained and parking and drive area shall be constructed in accordance with the apartments of 7.1 this would be the place to see if there is any if there i am not in favor of forcing the applicant to change the parking lot and access parking but i want to keep that open i want to hear the opinion of other board members on that if they want to move if they want to reduce the parking area as a condition of the of the application they say i'm not inclined to do that i think there's a lot of a lot of buffer to the neighboring property and there's no zoning bylaw that requires it individual parking spaces shall be painted marked or otherwise delineated you must have a line down your to delineate your parking the maximum number of overnight visitors per unit shall be three people with a maximum stay of seven nights the maximum number of people on the on the premise at any time will be 15 people that's both for your house and for the the main dwelling correct greg do you want to take that i i thought this was just for just for you so a little bit of question on that i think the context we spoke about this wording with staff was in the lease context and so the lease would be for the property that we intend to rent so that that both the limitations you're referring to would apply to the least premise but it's the least premise you know that that is before us because the other because the supplemental unit is before us is that i guess all right i suppose that's a way to get there um so we have three people overnight unit of three people seven consecutive nights for the best yes so the the maximum number of overnight guests per unit shall be three people with the maximum stay of seven nights so that uh the existing house is one unit so the maximum they could have is three people staying for seven nights and then the maximum at that existing building that the premises associated with the existing building would be 15 and so as long as it's for 13 and 14 on your list as long as it's called out that for the existing residential structure or the existing one-family dwelling because that's the rental property correct um firstly the board could um or alternatively the board could consider you know the maximum number of people on the premises total and greg could come up with a suggested number of what for the entire property or as mr reedy uh suggested um just focusing on this one unit for how many people can be on the premises it's just that these are two different ways that the board has handled this in the past so something to consider we can either we can limit the lease we can limit the total or we can limit the total property mr maxfield i'm sorry maybe i just don't quite understand um the need for this or where this is in the in the bylaw uh why is it that we have to mandate how many people can can be on the property at any given time would that that not be the discretion of the landlord to write that lease is there something the bylaw i'm i'm unaware of that that puts a limit on this we typically do this in order to um reduce the likelihood of large parties and disturbances in the neighborhood for rental property now we have owner occupied rental property in the neighborhood and it's almost we almost always put the limitation on the number of people that can that can be there for an event or that can stay overnight in order to avoid having people living there beyond what they're what's supposed to be living there was action permitted so it's pretty standard that there's some number which we work with the owner with it's what they're comfortable with and they include that subsequently include that number in their lease so if i if i understand this correct that if it would be the case that if i were to simply purchase my own house there would be no limit on how long i could have guest stay number of guests or how many people i could could have an attendance and an event on that property obviously if i were having a a a party that was a nuisance whether or not i own the home that is an issue with the police and and we have laws in place for that but it's the zoning board of appeals it it's been our standard practice that when it comes to renters that we have hard and fast rules about how many guests are allowed on the property how long they're there for and how many people maximum can be there rather than that simply being a landlord's discretion i just think of something of if there's a tenant living there typically i know in my lease it says without express written permission from my landlord so in the case i say you know want to have a graduation party or a birthday party here i could write my landlord let my neighbors know hey i'm doing this and have a party with a large number of guests that would then be held in responsible way that wouldn't be a nuisance but we i i don't understand why this only would do in order to in order to increase the comfort for the neighbors to reduce the so they they they then know if they um if there's been too many people beyond the amount permitted at the property if there's a party that there if they're part of your other kind of gathering that is causing a nuisance there's there's the ability for the neighbors to to um report that and to get some uh getting satisfaction and it also it also is a way in which to maintain to try to reduce the impact of um rental property on on neighborhoods and so it's been one that has helped with the ability for people to have rental property because it reduces the amount of concern in the neighborhood and that's why we've done it but there is there is no no hard and fast rule on that and this isn't something that would apply to somebody who simply purchases a house and they'd be free of those restrictions will there be i'm not the i can't speak on that but i think there'd be some restrictions even on your own house for how many people could would you be able to live there if they're unrelated folks not part of a family there would also be restrictions on the part the party and how many people can be in the house even if you're not renting to them i guess there'd be a limit there's there's health and safety limitations but this has been used effectively by the zba to try to to manage rental housing especially in a in a student of a university town oh yeah the university town i i guess just kind of my my my last question i won't hold it up because you know we can always certainly vote on that in a condition um but uh i guess my last point to that would be if there there are limits on uh the same that would apply to home ownership in any condition that we're putting here wouldn't that be redundant because those laws that apply to homeowners would apply the same to uh renters so if there is a hard and fast limit then that would already exist without the conditions that we would put on there are there are limits and restrictions on owner on rental housing owner-occupied or non-owner-occupied that are different than an owner then family housing or single-family homes that you occupy and don't rent to so there are differences in the zoning laws by laws but maybe either mr morrow or mr reedy can explain that if we want to go down this road farther we can or we can talk about it when we um we can vote on the on the conditions yeah we can save for the discussion on this of conditions so we can you know kind of keep this moving okay um other conditions change of ownership the new property shall be required to return to the zba at a public meeting for review and approval of the management plan the property shall be free of litter and debris the color of the fence shall do you want to condition the fence the color of the fence or as I think we said it's you're you're happy with hunter green or the hunter or forest green so maybe hunter or forest green hunter or forest green that's all right um the fence shall not exceed four feet I think we could move that the fence shall not to probably not exceed four feet on the front lot line and the fence the part where the fence can go to eight feet is along the portion of the sidewalk line between the minimum front setback and the rear lot line so you don't have an eight foot fence right along the right along the roadway which would look kind of awful you have the four foot fence and then you can go to the eight foot fence at the after you pass the setback yes right we'd be okay with a six foot fence on the start there if you'd like that I feel like we talked about an eight foot fence I wouldn't want my neighbors to feel slighted that they got a four foot fence for the area near the parking area so I'm happy with it it's a six foot or an eight whatever you deem if you think it's too high that's fine too I think I'm comfortable with four feet I think it looks it would it's imposing to have a fence right a six foot fence right on the on the street and potentially maintain good condition are there other conditions that we want to consider those are the ones suggested by the staff and those are some of the ones that we talked about in the hearing so with that I'd like to I know that I'd like to move that we that we adopt these conditions with the exception of we'll have a separate vote on the limits on the people there because I know that Mr. Maxfield wants to to maybe talk about that some more but I would move that we approve these conditions as laid out in the in the project application report of October 10 with with the mod of October 1st with modifications that we've talked about aside from condition 13 and 14 which we can discuss separately do I have a do I have a second to that motion second um is there any discussion Ms. Parks so if so tell me what these if we vote yes what does that mean we accept then we'll come back to 13 and 14 next and we'll discuss those okay but and then after 13 and 14 so if we're voting yes we are approving the project no no reporting on the conditions and then we'll have and then we'll have to discuss we're voting on the conditions and then we'll discuss we have to make certain findings of 10.38 we make those findings then we'll come back and vote on the okay with conditions yep so you know where we were okay here you may want to just hold off approving the conditions until after you go through the findings just in case for whatever reason maybe one of the findings could affect one of the conditions that you disapproved it might probably won't happen but I don't know but it might be possible to get a rent this is Sharon Wolven a rendering or a drawing of what a four foot to an eight foot or a six foot to an eight foot fence would look like along that property line it's hard to vote on something and you really can't see it and the pictures we've gotten have been great but I would sure like to see what that would look like I mean we could certainly provide that I would just suggest that it be as a condition of approval so that hopefully we can get the approval this evening and then we can come back at a public meeting and then the board can decide between four to eight or six to eight because it sounds like everybody's fine with either of those and it's really up to the board with aesthetics to say here's what we want but given the balance of everything else that we've talked about it I would hate to hold up the whole thing for that if you will. Ms. Wolven are you comfortable with that? If I could think about that while we are deliberating I would appreciate that you got it okay um so that Marine I don't think there's a I don't think there's many of the findings that are going to affect that are going to affect the um conditions oh can you hear me? This is Sam Gladstone am I allowed to talk? We're no we're we're in up in the public meeting section Mr. Lansdale um I think there's there's a standard condition on or about uh like a project has to be done within two years or it has to permit I mean the right come back. Yes normally it's it's a yes substantial construction has to be done within two years it's normally a condition of any special permit so two years to substantial as the wording is substantial construction isn't it so the motion before us is for um the conditions except for 13 and 14 and I think Mr. Lansdale has asked would ask that an additional two years for substantial construction to take place would be another condition but we're so I'm looking for any other discussion on that or a vote on those conditions not 13 and 14. Mr. Chair if Ms. Waldman is going to decide to accept the suggested condition I think that this is probably where it goes um because it would be good. So that we'll construct this up Maury you can construct a condition that they the applicant come back with renderings of four to six and it's four to eight foot fence various renderings that we at a public meeting that we can decide which is appropriate to us does that work for you Ms. Waldman? Yes and I think it would be four to eight and or six to eight I think those were the two things we talked about the one right at the the difference being the fence that's budding right every gets in the street. Perfect right and and I didn't hear quite I'm not sure I heard quite clearly is Mr. Lansdale asking for four years for substantial completion or project? No it's two years to have substantial substantial work done I think substantial construction. Okay I just heard something else so thank you. All right any other discussion on the conditions or any other? All right I just uh uh if the applicant needs to come back would that be at a public meeting for the fence elevation? Okay. Yep all right the question occurs on adoption of the conditions not 13 or 14 which we'll discuss next uh it's a roll call it's a roll call vote I vote aye Mr. Lansdale? Aye. Ms. Parks? Aye. Mr. Maxfield? Aye. Ms. Waldman? Aye. The motion is unanimous and it carries then the two areas that we're still discussing is the maximum number of overnight visitors number 13 and number 14 the maximum number of people in the premise at any time you 15 people. These have been these are typical and often we use almost often almost always we condition rental property with limitations on the amount of people that can be there at any one time with a total number of people that can be there overnight as guests. Mr. Maxfield do you have one? I support this and I would continue it but you have an opposition to it and please state your opposition then we can. Yes but my uh my opposition to this comes primarily from uh I think it puts uh renters essentially into a different class than than homeowners of what they are and are not allowed to do where I can think of especially in this case where it's an owner-occupied house with Mr. Stutzman living there with is is not an absentee landlord um and I very much believe it would be in his interest to put in the lease this condition uh and then in there without express written consent from the landlord something like that would be typical and the reason I wouldn't want to put something like this in there is for the reason I suggested before it's something wanted to have a graduation party something during the day something like that that that isn't intrusive they now can't because they're renters and another case I could think of with overnight guests we're talking about a time right now where we're in the midst of a pandemic and a lot of people are going homeless around the country I can imagine a case where there might be a tenant living there who might come to Mr. Stutzman at some point say a friend of mine has fallen on hard times I I'd like them to be able to stay with me for two months three months whatever that might be and then Mr. Stutzman will be able to consider something like that where if we've gone ahead and put on a condition like that then Mr. Stutzman would have no discretion there I would simply have to say I'm sorry but you you can't help a friend in this this type of case where again a home owner would be able to do that where we're now putting renters in a different class where they wouldn't be allowed to do that and I I'd be more open to to the realities we are a college town a lot of this is to prevent partying things like that it's the first we're strictly a rental unit non-owner occupied I'd be more amenable to it but where we have the owner occupied there he is the direct neighbor he and himself has an incentive to not have parties there I don't think that's the real concern I just don't want to tie Mr. Stutzman's hands on this to say hey I'd love to help you but legally I can't because of this condition that's been put on here by the town and it's for that reason that I really don't support this type of condition I I'll be voting no on it and I and I hope uh I hope the the rest of the board can can see that point of view and can can go along with that as well because I think our concerns will be addressed by by the lease um any board member with comment my concerns Ms. Parks what if you add or with permission of the homeowner but have those conditions there I think the concern is whenever you change property or somebody else is managing it it's it's trying to not let it get out of hand I mean I understand what you're saying that you don't want to restrict uh you know how someone lives their life um so would that work for you um Mr. Maxfield if we added that or with permission of the owner yeah I I'm certainly amenable to that because I I can't imagine that uh anyone any landlord would write a lease that doesn't limit number of guests without their permission um so the we go yeah go ahead I'm sorry yeah so I I think if we mandated that condition where Mr. Sussman would have that discretion or rather any landlord wouldn't have that discretion um if we mandate that specifically I think that's that's no different than us making no mandate because any landlord would put that condition in their lease my concern is that we're starting to we're we've that we're setting a precedent and I don't want to I don't want to move away from the precedent that we've set for a long time for as long as I and I'm not a long-term member but as long as I've been on the board that we've had limits on rental property either owner occupied or non-owner occupied I'm up with a number of people that can stay visitors and then people that can stay and I and because we don't want to allow um the good landlord is not going to be a problem a lot of these rules are are because landlords are either maybe aren't may not be there or they may be they may be very um they may not be good landlords but we but and I don't say that in the case of this gentleman Mr. Sussman but I do think that if we start making exceptions because we think that um this one we probably don't have to in this case because it's a good guy or he's nearby I think that we then make it difficult for us to do it in the future and that has been an important part of making people comfortable with providing rental housing is these kinds of limits and this kinds of accountability and these kind of conditions make it easier and give the neighbors the ability and and perhaps not in this case but in other cases to ensure that there's not um abuse of the rental housing in their neighborhood and I would really be concerned about setting a precedent that we that we not impose these kinds of limits in this case could I add something really quickly yes mr. specimen sorry I was just there's a little bit of ambiguity about the premises so and this may be your intent but could it clarify that it's the least premises or clarify that these provisions go in the least because I was asked to come up with the numbers that seem like we mentioned that you mentioned that before and it was for the least premises not that not okay property we had we had a couple of options and did not do the entire property so I think we just have a difference of opinion on this one and I think probably we just ought to vote um on whether we adopt these or not we can miss parks has an has an amendment if she'd like to offer that as an amendment to uh 13 or 14 that would be fine is it the time to do that and we could adopt that uh adopt the amendment and adopt the two conditions if that's what people want to do I would like to add that amendment okay so your amendment is would be to add the words um without the owners of the permission of the of the owner all right and that'd be for both 13 and 14 yeah okay um any discussion on the amendment mr. lion today yeah um miss parks what her amendment is or by permission of the owner is that right um yeah we're with permission or with permission yeah okay this or with her permission yeah right so could we read 13 and 14 with the amendment so we know we're voting on so miss parks it would how would you construct that sentence the maximum number of overnight visitors per unit shall be three people with a maximum stay of seven nights in the least if we want to add the at least premises good good catch or with the permission of the owner or maximum or if you want more you'll need permission they would have to get permission from the owner so in other words you want to have a party with 20 people you need to get the from the owner to say that that's all right I think mr. maxfield had some good language when he said without the consent of so you got a negative so otherwise it's kind of a left out there so say the maximum number is at the least are these without without permission of the owner that would then allow them it's in unless the owner says yes you understandable mr. line kill yeah could we just read both of them now with the maximum number of overnight visitors per unit shall be three people with the maximum stay of seven nights without the permission of the owner in the least premises in the least premises there's got to be a better way to say that we got we got we got lawyers here that can do it out the maximum number of overnight visitors shall not exceed three people with a maximum stay of up to seven nights in the least premises without the express consent of the way that's the express consent of the owner all right good it's definitely late yeah it's definitely late without the express consent of the owner yes my lawyer brain left me some hours ago yes well we're not getting the nine o'clock um same and the same with 14 all right so that's the discussion is there any other discussion on that amendment all those yeah just just just the last bit before we go in there uh yeah I understand the uh the precedent and I think it would be a different discussion uh if it's not owner occupied but I I hope everyone will consider this condition because I do think this condition puts renters into a different class than than homeowners and uh there's a wrench in myself I don't I don't like that idea that I have to be a different class of uh person and what I'm allowed to do on in my dwelling uh because I don't own the home so I certainly hope uh people can will be amenable to this condition vote occurs on miss park's amendment to 13 and 14 and we then will vote on adopting the amendment but first we adopt the first we will vote on the amendment it's a roll call vote um I vote no Mr. Langsdale miss parks I Mr. Maxfield I miss Walden hi motion carries four to one now the vote is on the um the two conditions as amended by the park's amendment is there any discussion if not uh the vote occurs it's a roll call vote I vote no Mr. Langsdale all right I miss parks I Mr. Maxfield I miss Walden I vote carries four to one um and the motion is adopted as amended so we've adopted the we've adopted conditions and now we need to go through and make our findings findings can be found on the project um the project application report it is late hard time with that this is a sub on page six of the of the report this is a supplemental detached dwelling unit um shall we free stand small free-standing accessory one family just permitted to co-occur on residential property a supplemental incidental to a new to a one family detached dwelling a supplemental detached dwelling unit may be the result of new construction or rehabilitation of an existing structure you shall not and um then we have general requirements 5.000 5.0112 it's it meets these it's less than 800 it's 800 square feet um you're not be used for lodging simultaneously it's 0.2 0.3 as the dwelling unit shall be occupied by the owner of the principal one family residence which requirement shall be made a condition of any special permit which we have done notwithstanding perversions of article 12 a supplemental dwelling unit shall be occupied by no more than three adult residents which is a requirement design and principle established in this section shall be applied to all access from the uses end of the section the proposed supplemental detached dwelling unit is located within the outlying that residents are o-zoning district which requires a special permit approval by the zoning board of appeals therefore the applicant is requesting a special permit to construct a supplemental detached dwelling and we it meets it meets the requirements of we've the findings that we have to make under 5.0112 parking in access we find the parking and access regulations um four parking spaces two spaces inside and two spaces outside this is um in um it exceeds the amount of the minimum required parking spaces dimensional regulations we've dealt with the fence 6.24 um there's several um sections on fences and we're um you operating under 6.24 to allow us to have a lot a higher fence than six feet um the proposed the proposed planning and struggling the applicant proposed this planting within the front setback along the southern lines there's no public sidewalk there therefore the proposal meets section 6.23 of the zoning bylaws the fence we've discussed um four feet high the color we've discussed and we've had a specific condition on the fence height and color and uh dwelling units you can attend to i we've done that so now we have so we've met the requirements of of um section five section seven and section six now section 10.38 specific findings require the proposal is suitably located in a neighborhood to which it is proposed the proposed detached supplemental dwelling unit is allowed within the outline residential zoning district with special permit the site has adequate space for a main house in a supplemental dwelling unit with 800 feet of habitable space the site will have sufficient room for open space and required parking 10.382 383 385 and 387 the proposal will not constitute a nuisance due to air and water pollution flood noise order dust vibration lights or visibly offensive structures or site features would not be substantial inconvenience or hazard to others considering the the conditions that we placed on the lighting and the on the fence I think we've met those requirements the proposed planting also provides visually shield proposed parking garage and dwelling unit from the adjacent properties to the west north and south the property owner intends to reside in one of the dwelling units on the property which would be a condition of a special permit the proposal provides dark sky compliant lighting and the proposal provides convenient and safe vehicular pedestrian movement within the site and in relation to adjacent trees proper improvements 10.384 adequate facilities for proper operation of proposed use utility services are there 10.386 is in conformance to the parking sign regulations there's four parking spaces two parking spaces for each dwelling unit so and so we've met 3.8 10.3.86 10.387 the proposal provides convenient safe vehicular traffic no vehicular pedestrian traffic is found on the site 10.388 the proposal ensures adequate space for off-treat loading and unloading this is not applicable to the project 10.389 the proposal provides adequate methods of disposal and or storage for sewage refuge recyclables and other waste trash recycling bins are located in the garage water and sewer connection um oh you know we did not I did not update that um yeah I think we it is on town sewer isn't it so uh so well uh the applicant has been in contact with the town engineer and the town engineer is satisfied uh with um you know their their intention to connect to the town sewer and water town engineer is satisfied yeah we need to be that i can do we have to make that a condition no it's going to be done all right um but we and we we've referenced it in the discussion so it's locked in methods of drainage for water service the proposal includes on-site stormwater management creation of rain garter's rain gardens etc a copy of the applicant submittal was distributed to the town engineer and he provided comments regarding the proposal on september 29th he does not have any issues with the proposal submitted 10.390 flood hazards the proposal is not um in a designated flood zone and it provides adequate drainage 10.391 protects the extent feasible unique or important historic scenic features this finding is not applicable to the project 10.392 it provides adequate the proposal provides adequate landscaping um for residential uses provision of street trees landscape violence parking lot um it's not applicable but uh non-residential uses is not applicable generally the proposal provides significant new landscaping to the screen from adjacent residential uses 10 plus it has a fence to also screen 10.393 the proposal provides protection of adjacent property by minimizing the inclusion of lighting parking lot and exterior lighting to produce a cutoff luminaries light shields lowered light poles in short lighting includes architectural sign lighting all must be down dark scar compliant and downcast we've changed the the lighting through the through the conditions and we find that they meet with those conditions they meet the dark sky compliance and we make 10.393 10.394 uh avoids uh steep slopes is not applicable 10.395 the proposal does not create just harmony with respect to the terrain and to the use scale and architecture existing buildings in the vicinity the proposed detached supplemental dwelling is found to be in harmony with that which is currently existing on site and it's found to be lower in height than the existing home 10.396 the proposal provides screening for storage areas uh trash and recycling shall be stored in the true car garage 10.397 the proposal provides adequate recreational facilities this is not uh there's sufficient open space on the site 10.398 the proposal is in harmony with the general purpose and intent of this bylaw and the goal of the master plan section four demographic and housing with the amherst master plan states that a mix of housing be provided to meet the needs of and is affordable to the broadest possible spectrum of the community with the applicant providing supplemental red dwellings as infill on existing property the proposal has met with the intent of the master plan by providing a mix of housing within the neighborhood in addition the proposed supplemental detached dwelling is in harmony with the zoning bylaw in relation to section five point zero one one and other applicable sections those are our findings um we've we've gone through the findings and met them we've adopted the conditions what remains as the final vote on the project and the application as with conditions so is there a motion to approve the project with conditions mr maxville moves is there a second second miss park seconds is there discussion on the motion to approve the application with conditions if not the motion occurs on the vote the vote occurs on the motion all those in favor of um approving the application with conditions indicate by a voice vote i vote i mr langsdale i miss parks i mr maxfield i just wallin i motion is unanimous motion carries um thank you very much thank you the last the last item of good luck the last item of business is um the ability to open up the any member of the public to discuss anything they want except for those items before the the board tonight um this is required by town rules and so we open up the floor for anybody in the public to discuss anything they want except for issues before us tonight is there anybody in the public that wishes to speak so please raise your hand yes please raise your hand star nine there being no other comments um the next meeting marine is on wednesday wednesday night on 132 north hampton at six o'clock we'll start at six o'clock and we'll have um we'll be dealing with um some conditions and waivers for next next week you'll have uh material before you before the meeting so you can study it all right gang we didn't make that we didn't come close to hitting nine o'clock tonight i'm sorry but um we dealt with a lot of stuff mr langsdale yeah i have something to say about this we're two hours over the nine o'clock every application that comes up they are told that we will make a decision if we can this evening i'm not doing this again i'm not doing two hours over the night if we can't make a decision even because it's going way too long then we say you'll have to come back we'll have to continue it but i'm not doing this again i understand no and if that's a problem i can resign but i'm not doing this again this is ridiculous i apologize you should it's not your fault but but no it is to be able to say look they they wanted to get it done tonight that's great that that's what they do but that wasn't mine it's too much i agree with i agree with you it's long and shouldn't have happened um and i that's my fault i guess we could have but we would not have had it wasn't to get it done tonight we just have so much of other stuff we have to do because wouldn't be up until i probably until november by the time you can get this stuff you know that's not our problem that's right miss parks i was just going to say also i the the thing about getting materials so late is is also a little frustrating because it's you know it's kind of like i work and so i'm rushing home from work to read the latest thing and then you know and then we'll get public comment you know after i've looked at things and so i feel like i don't i don't have everything so i don't i don't feel as prepared as i would like to because a lot of applicants are just sending stuff in you know uh 15 minutes before the meeting yeah that's why i asked you about the fence i didn't i had no idea that they sent it in because i couldn't go through all that much i didn't have time to go through all that material a lot of it coming today or yesterday it and we've talked about this before well people and if they don't submit until the day of the hearing i think we should tell them right up front we're probably not going to decide this tonight because we haven't been able to look at all of the materials we haven't been able to ingest it so that we know what we're talking about i don't want to look foolish saying well why don't you know we need a picture of the fence well we have one we sent it to you oh okay great you know it's just it's not the way to run the board i agree with that the way to run the board we should enforce the rule change that we made earlier this year on the material to us a week before yeah yep all right i'm glad to know that other people feel strongly about that and we will um insist on that with our applicants in the future we will mr maxfield not fair to us you know our pay grade doesn't uh doesn't uh i'm getting rich off this you're getting rich uh i don't know if anyone else is is amenable to this and if they aren't that's totally understandable but even for something like this where we might want to continue something where we know where we're we're getting near the end of something we can kind of see the goal line yeah i am certainly open to doing an off night where we know it's going to be a one hour meeting where we're finishing that ain't gonna happen that ain't gonna happen because then suddenly we're making we're making adjustments for them this is the board when we meet is when we meet we get the business done as fast as we can with the materials in a timely manner or or are we continuing and they have to understand that it's their responsibility to get the materials to us not our responsibility it's not our responsibility to rush home at like after work and run through all this material so that we can start talking at six thirty it's just not the way to run this board it's not the way it's been run before and it can't be run like this and i'm this eleven o'clock shit is you know mark and i dealt with this a long time ago and i'm not going back to it frankly again i think we've been really good in my in our defense we've been really good until tonight was trying to get it done by nine nine thirty this one went long and that is my fault i agree and we won't have it happen again but all i think the two points number one we're going to enforce the get substantive material to us ahead of time so we can read it and study it and two we will have we'll have a more firm limit on what we're going to when we'll be done nine o'clock at night and we'll try to and we will strive to be as good as we've been until now this was the exception and and and with with all of this i'm amenable if it's nine o'clock and we're you know going through one sort of thing that we need to figure out we go to nine thirty okay but to keep going on is just it just so that they can get it done you know no it's not why i'm here i understand that's not what i got up for all right folks i moved to adjourn should we discuss this more all right uh i vote i mr. langton i mr. park we just vote i by hitting leave if it's faster mr. maxfield and miss waldo hi hi all right we'll see you next wednesday all right good night everyone


Our hospitality helps make up for the coldness outside. I'd like to take this opportunity, Your Majesty, to thank you for a piece of cutlery. It's a fine, jeweled saber that I received as a gift from the Saudi Boy Scouts who visited the White House last year. And with the budget battle about to commence in Washington, it's going to come in very handy. King Fahd and the Saudi Royal Family, reflecting the values at the heart of their society, have been sharing and generous leaders. In addition to their humanitarian aid throughout the world, they contribute to such cultural and educational institutions as the American University in Beirut, for example. And closer to home, when fire destroyed a major cultural facility at Wolf Trap here in Washington, threatening to short-circuit an entire theatrical season, the Saudi Embassy quickly located a huge tent and headed flown to Washington. And the show went on. In 1977, Terraset Elementary School in Reston, Virginia received a solar heating system dedicated by none other than our guest of honor this evening. King Fahd's exuberance for getting involved is well known. He's maintained the rich tradition of the Majlis, meeting directly with his people, listening to their ideas, as often as not to their problems. This personal identification with his people has manifested itself in his avid support for Saudi Arabia's soccer team. Your Majesty, I understand that you have, on occasion, gone so far as to call the coach and offer suggestions. Being a former radio sportscaster, I'd love to do that. However, in this country, they only permit me to call them after the game is over. But there's an Arab saying, the sands are blowing. And I submit to you, King Fahd, that if the sands of time give us any hint of the future, it is that in the days ahead, the friendship between the Saudi Arabian and American people will be a strong and vital force in the world, and that the future of the Middle East is one of peace. Your Majesty, it's been an honor for us to have you as our guest. I look forward to building on what we've accomplished today. Mr. President, dear friends, I am pleased, indeed, this evening, to listen to the valuable words, these precious words, from my good friend, His Excellency President Reagan. And on this good occasion, I would like to give my greetings to Mrs. Reagan, while all the friends that are assembled here once again. I was indeed happy when I heard the President is following the news of sports in the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia. As a matter of fact, just exactly as the President said, this is true because I follow the news of sports in my country. And therefore, the Saudi soccer team was first among all the Asian countries and became the first, the only candidate, as far as a candidate for the Olympic in Los Angeles this past summer. It came, the team, the Saudi soccer team came to Los Angeles, but it was not lucky enough in order to win any medals. But the most important thing is that the team participated in the Los Angeles and it showed the world that Saudi Arabia here about athletics and sports. And the team found all kinds of reception and greetings from this good people in the United States. And also a couple of months ago, the team won the Asian Cup. Among some Asian countries that have had soccer and practiced the game of soccer for 100 years before Saudi Arabia. The Kingdom of Saudi Arabia took up soccer only about 20 years ago or maybe less and won the Asian Cup rightfully so. But of course in such matches, nobody takes into consideration the good feelings of the other. You play to win. So much so that one of the Asian countries that played against Saudi Arabia said that their team was going to win the Cup. As a matter of fact, they even reserved a special desk on the plane for that Cup. We did not claim that we were going to win the Cup, but the Saudi team won two Cups instead of one. The African Cup and also the goalie won the Cup for the most valuable player or the best goalie in those games and tournaments. Of course in the past, only five years ago, we were always defeated. As a matter of fact, I have adopted sports in my country, not only soccer, but many other sports and athletics. Now we have 125 athletic clubs. Those clubs practice all kinds of sports including soccer. We also hope that we will be able to participate in many international tournaments in the future. The day before yesterday, the Saudi youth group, those who are under 16, won the Cup for the youth under 16 years old. The Tournament for the Asian and African Games will be held in China next year. The Saudi team is going to play and of course we think this is a very good thing. It has already defeated the similar teams in Asia and now it is going to China in order to defeat other more powerful teams. Furthermore, there is another soccer team for those who are 18 or 19 years old. It has won all the tournaments and there are only four countries left that it is going to face. And we believe that we are going to defeat those also. When this takes place in Abu Dhabi and the United Arab Emirates and faces those four countries, it will go to Moscow. We don't know whether the members of the team will come back as communists to us or not. But I believe that our team will meet millions of Muslims there in the Soviet Union. I don't know whether the Soviets will allow the Saudi flag to flutter and to be raised because the wordings on the flag says there is no God but the God. And Muhammad is his only prophet. What is important that we are going to have matches in China and in Moscow? If this proves anything, it proves that there is a level of sports. The level of sports in Saudi Arabia is rather good. And in conclusion, before I finish what I have to say with these limited remarks, I would like to thank His Excellency, my friend President Reagan and Mrs. Reagan and all my dear friends as well here. I don't know whether His Excellency the President realizes that at the present there are some 500 American companies working in Saudi Arabia doing business. This is of any indication, it also indicates the close ties of friendship that exist between our two countries. And furthermore, the Saudi American Commission did its duty and it holds its meetings regularly once in Saudi Arabia and once in the United States in a regular manner. I would like to take this opportunity to express my gratitude for the officials in this commission, whether be they Americans or Saudis because they have accomplished many of the important projects and also those companies that contributed greatly to our progress and among them many American companies. Therefore, what I would like to say that there are several, many levels of relationships between our two countries, be they political, economic or social, they all indicate the strong ties of friendship between our two countries. When we are in need of any product that is produced by the United States, be it in the field of technology or otherwise, that means we are in need of this and we will work to get it. The reason we try to acquire these things because we consider ourselves as friends of the United States, our aim of course is to see we want peace and stability for our region in the Middle East and we want for all people to live in peace. I forget to mention something important earlier and that is that we have about 13,000 of our sons that are studying in American colleges and universities and they all find very good treatment. I'm sure that some of them are probably who have studied in the United States and they are here this evening. My sons studied in the United States, four of them, and they received their BA degrees from American universities. And I have now my young Abdul Aziz, Prince Abdul Aziz, when he is older he would go to the university. Therefore I have an interest here in the United States because my sons graduated from American colleges and universities. I hope that this friendship will continue because it was built on firm and sound foundations. And in conclusion I would like to thank President Reagan and Mrs. Reagan again and all my friends here and I would like for anybody who wishes to visit Saudi Arabia you are all welcome to come and see my country. And at this moment I would like to invite President Reagan and Mrs. Reagan for any time if they wish to come and visit Saudi Arabia. They will find friendly people there to welcome them. Thank you very much. I think tonight Mozzarella Caballier and her accompanist Fernando Terina. She has done so much for opera and now here she so graciously and beautifully shared her talent with all of us and I think for all of you you will agree. We owe her a most heartfelt thanks for a very enchanted evening.


Welcome to Out and About, a show where we explore a variety of issues, topics, organizations, and people who are making some news in our society and trying to do some good. As a disclaimer, this show is just, from my perspective, it's not connected with any organization I might be affiliated with and any other way and there's a few of them, but yeah we just want to get out some news and perspective and today we are delighted to have a very special guest on it's Choon James, who is running for the mayor of Honolulu and I've known Choon from her, first just watching her in testimony at this city council and and from there then other things that she's been involved with. So welcome to the show today Choon and thank you for being here. Aloha, nice to be here. So I you know I've seen your passionate advocacy for a variety of issues at the city council and I've admired your ability to be very direct and frank on issues that are passionate to you and that's a gift that you have but but you do it in a way that that makes people listen and so what has made you decide to run for mayor? Well that's a good question you know we have been on the outside of City Hall for decades and for decades we have been talking about some things that are really important and COVID-19 has in a way kind of validated a lot of what we have been complaining, groaning about and and one of it was you know certainly preserving our farmlands and making sure that we have food security and you know issues like keeping open spaces and making sure that public lands belong in public hands, keep the country country and all those all those very important issues to us and I'm sure to many of our people here as well and and the fact that we really need to have a good fiscal management at City Hall in my opinion cities fall and cities rise with its fiscal management I mean come on we want things we love things but we need money to make that happen and so if we don't we're not careful with how we spend the very limited resources we have then then we're not really doing the job that the taxpayers would expect us to do it so that's one of the reasons why I'm running I've actually grown older and I've grown more impatient and many of us have come to the realization that hey you know if we really want change we need to be on the inside you know we need to be on inside if things happen better when you're in the inside I think you have been true so many of that way we can all protest we can all petition we can all testify they were blue in the face right and guess what at the very end of the very robust process guess what that decision does not reflect the general sentiment of the people and so we say man we need to get in there we need to get in there because the office of the mayor is a very powerful office you get to you get to put commissioners you get to put people in the boards and to me those commissions and those boards are there to promote more public participation so you get people for all walks of life you know we don't choose the same or same old people that sometimes occupy two or three positions simultaneously right to me commissions and boards are never meant to get extension of the government it's meant to provide a higher level of participation more independent thought and deliberation to the decision-making process so that's that's just some of the reasons why I'm running and you know on so many fronts so many our young people are working to the tree jobs just to put food on the table and so many of our older folks have to delay their retirement just to survive and we see the homeless there and we see pop projects here and we see so many of the issues so many on the management that seriously I think that we we the residents can definitely do a better job do a better job okay and so that's what it's all about now just for folks at home if they want to follow along and some of the issues that you're have have some passion about although there's a lot of them and obviously you can't cover all them on your website it's vote tune.com which is V as in Victor O. T. as in Tom E. Tune C. H. O. N. as in Nancy.com and you'll be able to find out more information and how to contact your campaign if people wanted to get involved or maybe even ask you some questions now is it would this be the first elective office that you that you would hold well I I actually two years ago on the very last day because there were there were two candidates for the city council that I felt were really going to be dental detrimental at least to the issues of our area so I felt like I needed to go in there and make sure that our voices and our issues were heard so I so I filed I filed on the last day and I campaigned for two months and you know I'm glad I did because the issue of keep the country country was on the table and all candidates affirm that they will keep the country country so maybe you you were able to move the needle even if you weren't elected to that office right yeah I knew I was taking a risk because some candidates have been preparing for eight years right I mean some some some people are really ambitious about that and the fact that also with the and and vision like a project all the candidates agreed and they would take on video that they will not change the boundary growth line in Malay Kahana that an agricultural land that they will not they will not encroach into the agriculture land so I feel like those were valuable results that I got from that campaign I'm very happy about it because now now we're still going through our Ko'olau Loa sustainable plan that has been going to the process guys for ten years way the timeliness is way up and it's gonna come up again and all we have to do is to tell the city member like hey this is what you said you were going to do and we are depending on you following up on what you said you were going to do so I'm very happy I'm very happy having run for that and and running for mayor certainly it is a new I I never wanted to and I thought well maybe if I had really been organized by I would have stopped the campaigning three four years ago start cultivating people and start collecting donations but it came down to that I do not believe that any demographic campaign should be bought by big money so I made a very clear clear line to say that I will not accept donations from Peck and Lobis and certainly that makes us the underdog right and well that's a but that's a really important and valid point is that you're not accepting money from from packs or corporations how about unions or have you been endorsed by any unions at all no I have not you know I have not sick any of those endorsement personally I felt like hey I I am going to be a mayor for everyone and and unions to me are important because if you are a worker it is easier to have a group of people for collective bargaining to improve your workplace rather than just one lonely self right so unions are important but my my take is that whether our resident is unionized or not the military or civilian rich or poor Democrat or Republican we are all in this together and that the the office of the mayor is a non-partisan office and so and so I to me you know everyone is going to be a friend everyone is going to be constituent the office of the mayor is a public office we should be open and transparent to everyone it's a great philosophy and yeah and admirable and you know I I hope other candidates and folks running for all types of elective office would share that that view and you know seeking public office it's a it's a it's a it's an interesting thing isn't it because you're you're supposed you got to weigh so many different options and ideas and everything what are people coming up to you now that they know that you're running for mayor and what is it that they're that's right on the top of their minds that oh if you become the mayor I want you to do blank why right well some are interesting thing is some are saying that if I if I help you can you give me a job now so so I'm policing hey you know well all in this the reason why I'm running is because we want to make sure that the government is functioning well and that it is putting the residents first we you know I'm not into groupie or that type of thing I say hey you know if you're looking for a job fine but you have got to believe in our cost right I am looking for people who are believing in our cost not what can you do for me right that's one kind of big question right that's what you know you can do for the country right so yes yeah right so I guess an answer to that could be yes I will give you a job but what I'm going to do is set a proper framework so that everybody will get a job and a good job right right right and and I'm so far very interesting that some people are very one issue oriented and and that's okay some some are saying well what do you think of climate change I say oh certainly we need to take care of that and to me it doesn't matter what you think of climate change you know whether you think is is it's not real or it's real but the idea is that we all I think we all can come to a conclusion that our nature our earth is always changing I mean it's a living thing right it's all changing and how are we going to adapt to that and how are we going to prepare for it even even in the bad times framework that is what we call SWAT you know as new OT so you have your strength and your weaknesses and you and you can look at it in that my frame that yeah you know you go to Mapona Pona and gosh the rose some portion of the area is it's flooded even when it's not raining right so how are we going to address those type of issues and that is the reason why I'm I'm also saying that hey we got to look at the real route from Middle Street to Alamoana talk about that for a little bit because I think that is one of those issues for people that you said they may be single issue right what do you think about the rail well I think that's one of those issues for people that you think about well I I'm from Singapore I I think that real is a wonderful thing in that rapid transit can be equalizer for people for transportation but in this this one this one it is so mess up it is so mess up we cannot have a project that started in 2006 at 2.7 billion and today is 2020 and it's at 9.3 billion and we still don't know what the end figure is going to be right and and the interesting thing is that the final route because it's not going to you age it should have gone to you age right because that's that's a lot of the traffic from the students the final route from Middle Street to Alamoana is going to be in a sea Honolulu sea level rise in that nation zone what does I think there's a reflect that we should be looking at instead of just pouring money into it and so something said whoa we can stop there because we can stop Alamoana well the thing is even if we stop at Alamoana we're still going to branch out to you age so what's the difference between stopping in Middle Street and branching out the UH then stopping at Alamoana what I find interesting is that there are several candidates who are saying that oh you know climate change is the crisis of our generation good you know we need to have that type of a my friend but on one hand you're saying that climate change is the crisis of our generation on the other hand you're saying that well we've got to just finish real to Alamoana is is illogical it's not you know it just we just cannot do public policy in that type of environment it's like the left hand isn't knowing what the right hand is doing right and and certainly you know I have been observing the real for a very long time like I say I'm not against mass rapid transit I you know it is a good thing but it's my opinion now that the real rapid transit is now controlled by an oligarchy that just wants to finish it because there is profit because they they want to continue to make sure that that income is coming in and I think it is it is unethical I think that to say to tell us first that it was for traffic decongestion and then for us to find out that it was only going to relieve 2% of it right and then to tell us it was going to be full jobs 10,000 jobs and guess what only about 1,400 people got the jobs because we were then finally told our local people don't have the expertise of local people don't have the experience so we got to hire people from foreign countries and we got to hire people from mainland and you have lots of workforce people coming in doing the job that will promise to our local folks and that I suppose that that gets to a another issue of yours which is about transparency in government perhaps you know an independent ethics commission some and ramped up civic participation you want to talk about those things some transparency ethics commission and and civic participation right right um to me to me a government has got to be open and the government going out to be transparent in fact I'm saying that one of the first thing I would do is I would set up a whistleblowing hotline so that anybody who feel that there might be some major discrepancy or they have major concerns that they are able to to share those misgiving in the confidential way so that they're not afraid that they're going to be retaliated or in any form that is part of being an open and transparent government we need to do that we cannot have a repeat of what was happening with our former chief K Aloha and Catherine K Aloha you know that that episode happened and took place along a long path so it's not like it happened one day it's been going on for a long time and there were people along the path for new but somehow they felt that they could not share or they could not report and you know we know that's going to cost us a lot of money still you know and and that mistrust in government and and I will also make sure that at the end of each week I want to post on the mayor's website the list of all the people who have come to visit the office of the mayor and and so you know who are the developers that come who are the lobbyists that come who are the friends that come whoever comes I think the public deserve the right to know the coming and the goings and who who are coming to visit us and also to have dialogue and I would expect every department head and every deputy head to do that it's not very hard to do you just you just paste it paste it on your website at the end of the month right that's a that's a wonderful idea that should be implemented immediately just so we can see and what's to hide it's the government the government is here we are the government it's here to serve us which I think it's lost a lot of the time so government doesn't always feel like it's serving the people right right and people feel like they're cut out to me it is a public office is is the people's office you know they should be able to to ask any question I'm certainly not going to hide behind press releases some you know I I'm it's been interesting to watch but but certainly you know it was good news would tell you the goodness it was bad news would tell you the bad news you know we're all in this together yeah it's it's it's just those those simple thoughts speak volumes about you know that the idea of an ethical approach to government that's transparent is possible and I know there's other ideas that you have that would increase accountability and and transparency in government and a lot of these are really simple steps that we could take they're not costly or difficult and in fact probably end up saving a lot of time and money in the long run or even the short run right so it's back to the basics you know it really expects to basic and I have testified before you know that any one of us we humans we will make mistakes you know those are errors and omission and certainly the employer should protect us but if any employee is intentionally and willfully violating the city charter the the Hawaii state law and the Constitution we the taxpayers shouldn't have to be forced to pay for the intentional and the willful wrongdoing I you know I want to make that very clear hey you know if we goof up once in a while we understand but if you are intentionally violating and intentionally doing wrong then don't expect us to bail you out because we should we the taxpayers should not have to do that it seems like we've seen some some pretty staggering cases of corruption lately and right and sadly I think you know most government workers most folks seeking elective office are very noble and high-minded and really do work to serve the public and it's a case where a few rotten apples end up spoiling the bunch or and changing public perception and especially in this day and age when we don't have when our faith in maybe some political process or politicians has been tested who is a who is a who is a leader that you admire that that you respect it could be someone who's alive or not alive but is there any people that come to mind that that you think I respect and admire that person that somebody that maybe that you've looked up to in the past or maybe have to keep a quote in your head from that person. Yeah I think that I admire anyone who gets in the public service and try to do good and I also resent those who get in the public office and try to loot the office but I I would just off the top my head think of a league one you from Singapore he would he would he is generally revered throughout the whole world as as the founder of Singapore someone who have brought Singapore from a third world country into a major country where efficiency is is premier and where the people welfare is really at the top of his of his lease and now first I have to say that I don't agree with everything he does you know because we have our US Constitution and I certainly firmly believe that there is a way the best document in the entire world in the entire human history but he has been able to very very clearly say hey we are here to serve the people and so when he campaign they all wear white just as a symbol of purity and transparency and in Singapore you know what I really like is that is that everyone everyone is expected to do good if you are in a public service you're expected to do good in fact you know he has seen that he has since died but one of the funny thing that he said was that he wanted and it didn't come about but he wanted to investigate any public elected official who may seem to have all of a sudden became rich he was so against corruption and he was trained in Cambridge England he was saying that okay if I see you any of the members of your parliament and all of a sudden I see that you're you're really rich and it seems like you you're making more money than you should as a member of the parliament I'm going to investigate you and it's true I think Singapore is ranked right at the top of transparency international's index it's just at the very top as far as openness and accountability and transparency from at least a corporate perspective so yeah and anyone who's been to Singapore can marvel at how it like you said it has gone from the third world to the first world and and the food is great everywhere too so that's one thing you've got to miss how long have you been in Hawaii anyway well I've been here since I was 17 years old so it's almost almost 45 you know 45 years old and and you know in Singapore and we can have the same culture we can expect that our public restaurants will be clean and that there'll be soap in there and that and that our yard we clean our parks be cleaned and it's a matter of expectation and it's a matter of culture and I think that we can do that we can do that and I certainly want to bring that and certainly it's a very green you would love it it's a green garden city right things grow and and they specifically make sure that the greenery is important you know like I say I don't agree with every of his tactics you know his methods yeah but the the idea and the idea of an efficient effective government where things are run well where there's no corruption that is certainly something that we can do here easily with that with a great amount of civic pride as well because right see that that's so like you said it's yes we can expect excellence from our from our public servants and then then it goes to every member of the society right right right and it becomes a culture but let me share with you a really funny story I was in Singapore for a month and we went all over the roads in the small roads the outer roads every kind of road there was not a single puddle not a single puddle and on our way home cruising back into Honolulu Airport we had to burst into laughter when that when the pilot through the intercom say we apologize there will be a two minutes delay because there's a pothole in front of the of the plane and we have to be pulled into the terminal and there it is I mean we've we've got a lot of work in front of us and and and and those are those terrific examples we have a lot of work in front of us we have a lot of opportunities in front of us but with people like you running for office with with the values that you hold and the ideas that you have I think are really terrific if we can keep that spirit up and and share that with other people regardless of who gets into office but of course you are hoping to be elected by mayor to mayor so people are going to be able to vote tune and if they want to from next week I believe the 20 something it'll get a ballot in the mail so for more information go to votetune.com and unfortunately we are out of time today tuned but it has been my great pleasure to have you on the show and for you to share some ideas with us so thank you for being here. Aloha.