This is Covering the Spread. Here are your hosts, Jim Saunas and Dr. Ed Fang. What is going on everybody? Welcome on into Covering the Spread. That's right here on the FanDual Podcast Network and NumberFire.com as we are getting you set for week number 10 of the NFL and breaking down the best bets on the board with Joe Ostrowski of You Better You Bet and 670 The Score in Chicago. My name is Jim Saunas. I am a senior writer and analyst for NumberFire.com joined here by Ed Fang of the PowerRank.com. You can find Ed on Twitter at the PowerRank Ed. We are on to week number 10 and for the first time in like six decades or as long as I've been following football there's actually a really good game on Monday night with the Seahawks and the Niners so usually I kind of check out once we get past Sunday night but I actually have to stick around and pay attention to Monday so I'm interested to see how this goes. How are you doing? I'm good man. You weren't thrilled with that Miami and Pittsburgh game? Brutal. That was riveting. Was the Jets Patriots game a Monday night game? The Ghosts game? Yeah that was riveting too. That was nothing to buckle right? Yeah that was bad. We had the Cowboys Giants with the Black Cat on the field. Oh that was good. Yeah. That cat was something else man. It was a good cat you know it was a good looking cat. I'm not really a cat person because I don't think they like me all that much. I don't dislike cats. How can someone not like you? How can something not like you? It's a cat so I don't know if it really like. I don't know if it... How can some cat not like you Jim? I don't know. I think the Cat's a Ryan Tannehill fan and can tell that I am not quite there. Maybe it's a Mitch Trebisky fan? I don't know. Like there are a lot of possibilities for why cats could dislike me but I think that's what it is. At least we got some good Twitter memes out of it. That's positive. We actually get good football Monday night with Seahawks and the Niners. You had Ben Baldwin on your podcast this week. He's firmly part of Seahawks Twitter. Did you get to talk to him about that game on Monday? Yeah I mean it was kind of the primary reason I picked this week to have Ben on. Ben does a lot of fantastic work. I had him on the last few years on the football analytic show, my podcast. And yeah we just broke it down. He's pretty down on what Seattle is doing on the defensive side of the ball. You can't argue with what Russell Wilson is doing on the offensive side of the ball. And then you know I mean he has some interesting predictions on the Niners defense. I don't want to spill them here but yeah it was pretty interesting his take there and you know I think he expects it to be a pretty good game. It should be and I think it will be a fun game too because we're going to learn. We haven't really seen you know Seattle's defense against a lot of good competition yet and I think that's probably why he's pretty down on them. Because they haven't even been good against bad teams putting them up against you know Kyle Shanahan. It is a bit daunting so I think that'll be a fun one. Check out Ben's thoughts at the football analytics show today. We're going to talk about that game too with Joe Ostrowski of You Better You Bet at 670 the score in Chicago. You can find Joe on Twitter at Joe 0 670. The early odds on 670 the score every Saturday morning if you are in the Chicago area. Also You Better You Bet is on radio.com every weeknight for four hours. Ed you were on there last night. Yeah. What did you talk about there? We talked about why I failed in academia. Failed. We talked about why I'm the former family Tetris champ. You know it's super fun. I don't know. I mean as much as I enjoy talking football and bets and we certainly did that. I enjoy I enjoy some of the other stuff as well. I got to I got to promote my eight year old son on the show so it's kind of fun. I don't think I've ever played Tetris to be fully honest with you. Really? Which one is Tetris? I played Pong. Which one's Tetris? We used to have Pong on my old my desktop when I was growing up and I played Pong because I want to.   And when you get a full line all the way across like a full horizontal way and you get points. That's weird. I don't know if I can do that. Are you that young? No, it's not even that I'm young. I think it's just so like I was Tetris was a thing when I was a kid. I was like sheltered I think more so than young. I think that's that's the way that I would lean.    No, you don't do you multiply them? I don't honestly know regardless. You just have to match these blocks together. It's very weird. And that's how if I'm like if I have 10 minutes and can't start anything new for work, I just sit and I do that for 10 minutes. So you can play Tetris online, Jim. I mean, I need to I think I need to do that. I might need to dive into that. I'll get a lesson from you or is it from your son?  You can figure it out, Jim. Just go just search Tetris online. Go play. It's fun. I think your faith in my abilities is a little bit unfounded, but that's okay. I will I will take that for sure. You'll be fine. Just go do it. All right. And while I'm playing Tetris, all of you can go find our college football week 11 preview with Rufus Peabody of Massey Peabody. He broke down the big games on tap for this week. We got LSU, Alabama, Minnesota, Penn State. Rufus gave his thoughts on those and also talked about his model for the college football playoff and kind of trying to predict what the committee will do to find that search for covering the spread wherever you get your podcast. You can find it on Apple podcast, Spotify, Stitcher, anywhere you get podcasts, you can find covering the spread. And while you're there, please leave a rating and review as well. And thank you to those of you who have done so already.  So if you like what Joe says today, make sure you go back, subscribe, rate and review. Before we bring in Joe, though, we're going to take a look back at what happened last week. We had Dr. Eric Eager, a pro football focus on to preview week nine. Let's go back through what happened on that one and then get set for week 10. All right. Last week on covering the spread, as mentioned, we had Dr. Eric Eager, a pro football focus previewing week nine. Follow Eric on Twitter at pff underscore Eric. And he did mention that Thursday night game right before we posted it. And he wanted the over on 43 points for the Cardinals and the 49ers. And that game shot out a little bit. You know, part of it was because the Cardinals clawed back late, but that game went over by 10 points. So he hit there for Eric. He also wanted the Texans minus one against the Jaguars because he thought the market may have actually been undervaluing to Sean Watson. And that showed up pretty well as the Texans did cover pretty easily there. One of the Packers over 13 points in the first half, partly because the scripting for the Packers has been so good this year. And they're often struggled. They went under there and didn't really have the ball all that much either. So under for the Packers there mentioned the Patriots minus three and a half against the Ravens. And you talked about that game too, as being one that was pretty interesting because it was hard to tell where to be on New England. And of course, Baltimore won that game. You were talking about it, how you like to buy New England when the markets are soft on them. Do you think that we might get a chance to do that as they come back from their buy next week? Yeah, we could. We'll see. I think it's always, I always like betting on New England, especially when the numbers like it. It was an interesting game because kind of the defense kind of broke down for New England. Baltimore was able to do a lot of things on the ground with Mar Jackson, a lot of long extended drives, pretty successful on the ground. And when you're successful on the ground, it doesn't make Lamar Jackson have to beat a very tough secondary. And then, yeah, I'm still kind of, I talked about Brady and the New England's pass offense, something I'm still looking into to figure out whether they kind of just don't have the weapons to go deep and be as successful in that passing game. So stay tuned and let you know what I find out. Yeah, that'll be very interesting. So I would bet that we'll be talking about them at some point next week because I have also been skeptical of that passing offense. And it didn't really do a lot to change my mind there because Baltimore's past defense isn't good either. But they're also your penalties that kind of really influenced the way that game broke down. So I think the Patriots are a team we'll want to keep an eye on in the future. Eric also mentioned the under on Seattle versus Tampa Bay. That game also wound up shooting out. It was kind of the night in their scenario where Tampa Bay got ahead early and kept the Seahawks from, you know, killing their own offense by running their Grounded Pound offense. Anytime Russell Wilson gets put in a negative script, they're going to score points. That's kind of how it happened. So it very easily could have gone the other direction. I think that's why Eric wanted the under, but just happened to be where Tampa Bay got out to an early lead. I had the Lions plus two against the Raiders and they were a yard away from scoring and covering. They did not get that. I like, in theory, I like the thought, what they did was they got down to the one, they went forward on fourth down and they went in this jumbo package. And I was like, Oh no, they're going to run.   I hate this because I knew they wouldn't make it. They ran it on fourth and one or fourth and goal from the one. And they went play action. They threw it to Logan Thomas. And I liked the idea of going jumbo and throwing. Sure. But I didn't like the idea of throwing it to a former Virginia Tech quarterback when you have Kenny Galladay and Marvin Jones. So I liked the thought. I just hated. I hated everything else about it, basically. Yeah. No, it's definitely a tough one.  So, right. They were, you know, even on the field, which I think made it worse, but. Oh, yeah. Yeah. It was, it was frustrating. If they had actually tied that game, they probably would in the Raiders won an overtime. I would have lost anyway. So it's not as if they would have automatically covered had they scored that touchdown, but it was a little frustrating still. But a fun game overall. So maybe interested to see what the Raiders can do tonight against the Chargers because they've been a team that I've been wrong about a lot this year. Ed, you actually mentioned them in the preseason as being a team that we are maybe too low on because of all the draft picks. And I think we're seeing a lot. And also John Gruden might just be a better coach than we've given him credit for two. Yeah. No, it could be. I mean, I think, I think that, you know, obviously a lot of what I said in the preseason expected Antonio Brown to be there, which he's not. So, you know, you got to, you got to all put it in the, in the right context. But, you know, I think their past offense numbers look pretty good in terms of my justice success rate. That's something we saw last year, despite the fact that team was awful in the win-loss column. So, yeah, an interesting team for sure. They're not taking any sacks. And I think that's a big part of the reason why they're showing up so well. But they also have like, when Derek Carr has got into the ball, he has done well there too. So it's not just the lack of sacks that's fueling their offense to be pretty good. They might just be a good offense overall. They're left to Aquaculture Millers taking big steps forward. So the Raiders, pretty fun team. I think they'll have a big test tonight against the Chargers. We'll talk more about Week 10 in just one second. But first, if you want to get in on the action, check out the Fanduil Sports Book and place your first bet today. If you lose, Fanduil will give you a refund up to $500 in site credit. Visit sportsbook.fanduil.com for more details, terms and conditions apply, must be 21 plus and physically present in New Jersey, Pennsylvania, West Virginia, or Indiana. Gambling problem, call 1-800-GAMBLER. Let's bring in Joe Ostrowski now to breakdown. Week number 10 of the NFL followed Joe on Twitter at Joe 0670 to get his thoughts there and also find him on You Better, You Bet. Let's get set for week number 10 of the NFL. Let's bring on Joe Ostrowski of You Better, You Bet and 670 the score in Chicago. Joe, it is a busy time of year for you. So I appreciate the time. How are you doing today? Thanks for having me, guys. Appreciate the work both of you guys do. And you put me on the Rufus Peabody Weekend. So I have to try to live up to that standard. Thanks a lot. And, Jim, I don't mean to hurt your feelings to start off, but my favorite bet right going on right now on a weekly basis is Northwestern Team Total Under. Even last week, it was 17. I'm looking at this Purdue game this week. It should be in the 20s. I'm going to have to play it until it loses. So, okay, they're playing Purdue. Purdue is missing a linebacker. I think they're missing like some defensive lineman. Where would the number have to be for you to bet the over? Because like, 15 is like, 15 feels kind of high. I was laughing at the Ohio State. Remember that Friday night game, of course, when the first half team total was three and a half and the undercash then. So I am not even considering the over. It is under or nothing. No touch downs for 13 consecutive quarters. It's been so bad. And like I was I was watching last week's game. Hunter Johnson comes in and the first series, they actually go, they go no huddle with him on the third series of the game. He came in, they run no huddle. The offense shows like a tiny bit of life. And I was like, cool, I don't care if they lose by 40. I'm happy. The offense is alive. They lost by 31. So they really tested my statement of I'll be happy no matter what. But they're bad, man. I would keep doing what you're doing. I appreciate the commitment though and Pat Fitzgerald pretty defiant towards the media. We're not making any changes on offense, but he owns Northwestern at this point. But we'll see if that's the case after this year. It probably will be. It probably will be for him. I will not say the same about his offense and coordinator. I think that might be a different discussion for sure. Enjoy. You've got your name. You've got your eye on college football. We got college basketball season now and you better you bet and it's 670 to score. You're talking a lot of stuff here. So as a better and as a person in betting media, how do you kind of balance having all these sports going at once now? Yeah, I have a love hate relationship with this time of the sports calendar right now. But it makes me feel a little good that we get a the opportunity on you better you bet to talk to some of these bookmakers, which I enjoy just to try to get some information what they're thinking going into the games. And this week they are not happy. They are not. They're working their asses off. They've got to put up all these college basketball games in addition to NBA, NHL, NFL, college football. And like this week with action, we've had football every single day. But personally, I'd be lying if I told you that I'm betting on the NHL every single night. I think that's the mistake a lot of better seem to make. And sometimes we get trouble. Say we'll have a good Sunday, and then we get this over confidence. Well, the NFL is the sharpest lines in the world. If I can beat the NFL, I can beat absolutely anything with not enough prep. I would suggest that people stick with what you're focused on. So like with my work during the week on the score and you better you bet to 95% of it is on football. So I'm sticking for the most part with football. But it's a it's a strong community, as you guys know. So a lot of people are willing to share information. Sometimes they'll give you a look at something. Maybe you could take a deeper dive into it. But let's be real. I mean, you're not doing cover the spread NHL, right? Right now, it's all about football until we get to 2020. So Joe, you got to ask Jim a little bit about Northwestern. I get to ask you about the bears and you follow this team closely. The offense has been a little bit of a letdown to say the least. But do you think that we're at have we bottomed out and maybe there's some value in going with the bears in the future? You are being very kind. But yes, they bottomed out. So CG technology releases the line for every game before the NFL season starts. Now, of course, a lot's changed. We've had some injuries as well. What do you guys think the line was for Bears Lions Week 10 for this game before the year started? We're sitting at two and a half right now. Most books opened at three, but it's two and a half across the board 10 and a half. It was eight. Okay, there's bears minus eight. So I thought the adjustment would be closer to a touchdown three and five. They could be two and six week two. They could have lost to the Broncos. There was that the chub rough in the passer and they put a second on the clock for Pinheiro to hit the game winning kick there. So they could have the exact same record as the Browns. But it's been ugly. It's been ugly. Yeah, usually in the NFL, okay, you buy low and you sell high, but after four straight wins with a buy mixed in there and Mitchell Trubisky is still your quarterback, I have a hard time selling that to anyone. And in this specific case, the bears as a favorite, we're not even talking about the underdog. I'd be more willing to buy low on the bears next week when they're probably going to be at least touchdown underdogs at the LA Rams instead of them as a favorite. I mean, in the preseason, Jim, you have a lot of connection to this area. All the talk all off season was, hey, we just have to find a kicker and we're golden. Everything's great. The defense is wonderful. We have a good offensive line.  Allen Robinson, second year off the ACL, Mr. Miski, third year in the league, second year in the offense. This is just the tip of the iceberg. What we have with Matt Nagy, we just need the quarterback to take one step forward. Just one. The problem is he took four or five steps backwards. 33rd, 32 teams, 33rd in touchdown percentage, 33rd in yards per attempt and net yards per attempt, 33rd in completion percentage, 32 in passing yards per game, 31st in QBR, 30th in quarterback grading. It's a mess. Even the Trebisky truthers have realized midway through the season, this is not going to work. And personally, I hope the general manager that moved up to avoid Mahomes and Watson to take Trebisky is not the guy selecting the next quarterback because let me also remind you that he wasn't able to pull off the deal, but he wanted to move up for Marcus Marriota. Oh, yeah. Well, hey, that would have been, let's not talk to him of Marcus Marriota in present company. He might be, I know he's your guy, but he might be here next week. He might, yeah. Next year, rather, for some competition. I think Annie Dalton would probably be the preferred target there, but you know, it might be. You were talking about the kicker thing. I remember Kaelin Kaler, who is a Northwestern grad too, wrote for the MMQB about how they have like nine dudes in for a tryout at once. That's a rookie camp. Yeah. Yeah. And like, if you're so focused on that, you're ignoring issues elsewhere. The loan issue with the Bears last year was not that kicker. I think Mitchell Trebisky was 32nd in pro football focuses ratings. And there were a lot of flukeiness in it, even as expected to a point numbers, which were not nearly as negative. And I think that it was just a misguided offseason for the Bears. Absolutely. If you look at DVO way, okay, they're not number one anymore. They're down a little bit, but it's not a bad defense. One major injury has hurt them. Akeem Hicks in the middle teams are gashing them just running the football between the tackles, but you're right.  They were just so tired of it. But this is what's happening. You're not getting 36 takeaways again. They're the middle of the pack. And this is, this is what you get. And, but, but I think we can all say that the offense is much worse than anybody ever imagined.  And I bought into the hype a little bit because I thought Matt Nagy handpicked him and he would fit, but they don't have an offensive line this year outside of Cody White here. Yeah. And I remember before the draft, it was either Nagy or Ryan Pace said, we don't have enough picks to prioritize running back. Mike Davis is going to be involved, Trey Cohen will. And just kidding, guys, we're going to move a future four in order to get David Montgomery. David Montgomery is fine. But the process behind that, not great, Bob. So, not the time to buy low on the Bears just yet. Not for me. Not this week. Not as a favorite in the division. Like him or not. I mean, Stafford puts up points. He had a chance to win the game to put up 31 points at Oakland last week. Now, what I will say is the matchup great for Detroit. Like I just mentioned, teams are killing the Bears in the run game through the middle. And it's not like that's their game. They're going to probably try to beat them through the past. But the thing is, I look at this line steam, even against the Bears, they're probably going to put up at least 20 points. And this bears teams losing games, allowing 17 points. Exactly. So don't buy low on the Bears just yet. Let's move on here to another NFC North team, actually a couple of NFC North teams to discuss here for this weekend, starting off with the Panthers at the Packers. The line here is the Packers minus five and a half, the total 46 and a half right now at the Fandals Sportsbook. And the Packers had gotten on a bit of a roll, but they played terribly last week in LA. So how much does that one game impact the way you view them going forward? Or is just kind of a bad game? I was one of those people that was saying that Green Bay is a fraudulent team. And even though they aren't all losses lately, I think we're kind of seeing that play out against the Chargers. They had 81 yards with 10 minutes left in the game. The Chiefs game to get a little lucky. They avoid Patrick Mahomes, unlike most of their opponents. The Oakland game, it looked like a blowout if you're just looking at the final score, but the Raiders, it was miss Q after miss Q in the red zone. That game should have been closer. Of course, the referee game Monday night against the Lions. So their record could be a lot worse. I don't have a lot of faith in the Packers defense. The 25th in yards per play, their dead last and adjusted sack rate. It's getting worse and worse for them. And the, it's big advantage Carolina as far as that Panthers run game with Christian McCaffrey. He's getting all the MVP hype coming out this week, but you also have to take a look. I don't want to be too simplistic here, but we're talking about Aaron Rodgers off a bad performance against Kyle Allen. Last two games for Allen. He's thrown four interceptions. He's completing just above 50% of his passes. I think this is a buy on Green Bay spot, Fade Carolina. I know there's been sharp money on the Panthers throughout the week driving this number down a little bit. Now if it pops back up to six, I probably would not lay it, but at five, five and a half the Ranger at right now, I would take Green Bay. Excellent. Let's move on to Vikings at Cowboys. Cowboys are a three point favorite. The total is that at 48. Cowboys have been a little inconsistent, but are largely healthy now. Where do you put them in the pecking order of the NFC? This game is going to be great. We have a couple of fantastic prime time matchups this week and Sunday night Vikings in the Cowboys will be wonderful. I've been down on Dallas. I was down on Dallas in the offseason, higher on the Eagles. I think I'm proven wrong on that, but it's really close. I don't think Dallas is going to be able to catch San Francisco New Orleans for a buy. They're already two games back of the two seed in the loss column, but when you look at the numbers, and I know you guys do that on this show, number one in net yards per play, number one in offensive DVOA, number two in explosive play rate with Dallas. There were a lot of questions about the offensive coordinator coming into the season. When you look at that, I don't know how you don't buy into Dallas at some point. Aside from the fact, if you're talking about a futures bet, they're probably not going to get a buy. I think we'll hear just a few times about Kirk Cousins in prime time, just a few. As far as this game goes, I think the numbers rock solid. I think if any of us were guessing what the line would be, home team minus three. If I had to make a play, guys, with these two strong running games, both offenses committed to the run, I would look at under 48. Maybe that gets to 48 and a half on Sunday as all the public money comes in. I would lean towards the under, but I don't have a strong play on the side. You would need the total to go higher to bet it, correct? I would do it at 48, but I would hold out hope that it would continue to rise. It's been on the rise throughout the week. Let's move on here to the Seahawks at the 49ers. We were talking about this game in the introduction because it's going to be a fun one. The Seahawks have Russell Wilson, but they're facing this 49ers defense, which has been really good for the entire year, and the 49ers six and a half point favorites here. The total is 47 and a half, and we get the unstoppable force of Russell Wilson versus the immovable object in the 49ers pass defense, unless you're Andy Isabella. So which side do you favor here between the Seahawks and the 49ers? Wait, Joe Tessitour and Booger are going to get a good game? I know, right? A much of a game? What could go wrong? We might have to put them on mute, but I can't wait to see this game. Guys, if I had like 1% of the money that I've lost on Russell Wilson fading him, I think I could have my finished basement done already.  I fall into the trap again and again, but San Francisco so far at this point, they're the most balanced team that I see in the league. Whatever you want to look at, they're number two in net yards per play, number one total DVOA. You have a strong head coach in Kyle Shanahan. He gets extra rest going from the Thursday to the Monday game and the Seattle D. Russell Wilson has to have an MVP caliber season just to make sure Seattle's a winning team because they're bottom five in so many categories. They gave up so many points. I think there are going to be a lot of spots moving forward. I'll be one of those falling for it, fading Russell Wilson because after this game, they go to Philly. They've got Minnesota, LA Rams all after San Francisco. It's going to be a rough patch of games for them, but as far as the Niners, I'm also willing to lay it. I'm usually not this guy, but I will take San Francisco minus six. Hope it's not six and a half. It looks early on like Seattle is that public dog. You don't ever want to be on that side. Yeah, that's excellent. I mean, I understand the impulse to fade Russell Wilson because of what's going on on the other side of the ball. It just hasn't really worked out this year, but as you said, that schedule definitely gets tougher. Joe, any other numbers stand out to you in the NFL for week 10? Yeah, I see that you guys didn't want to talk about these because these games are gross, but there are some big underdogs. Are we getting a Jets giants here? No, no, no. Oh, okay. I heard gross and I thought I thought of Daniel Jones. Okay, never mind. Sorry. These are gross too. These are absolutely disgusting and the lines might climb as we get closer and closer to the weekend. A couple of situational plays. I know there are some situational handicappers out there. The Bengals getting double digits off a buy against the Ravens and a potential letdown spot there. I heard Bob Scucci from Boyd Gaming. He said the ticket count on the Ravens is 25 to 1. Wow. 25 to 1. After the world saw the Ravens take down the Patriots last week, it's a letdown spot. I guess AJ Green will be on the field. Maybe Cincinnati rallies around their new quarterback. We've seen that a lot this year, that great ATS record when you have a new quarterback stepping in for that first week. That's usually a bet on side, so I will take Cincinnati plus 10. Maybe this thing gets to 11 or 12 if it's that lopsided by the weekend once the public checks in. And also I'm going to take the Dolphins. They're getting double digits against the Colts. Brian Hoyer is a double digit favorite guys. Brian Hoyer is a double digit favorite. Miami's covered every game since September. Every single game. At least they're fighting. I mean, they were criticized nationally for not trying, for tanking and all that, but we're not seeing a tanking club. You have the high variance with Fitzpatrick under center, but you're giving me 10 or even more than that. I'm going to take Miami because Indianapolis not a very explosive team, so they may win, but I don't know that they're going to win by a couple of scores. And I think the other thing too here is that, you know, Jacoby Berset may play, but he's also banged up. And if he does play, they're probably just going to grind Marlon Mack. They've been okay with being a very run heavy team at times this year. Most have been on the road, but no TY Hilton. It seems like he's going to sit. It makes sense that they would play this one slow, try to escape with a win. I think that that does push towards the Dolphins there too. Jim, would you be worried about the Dolphins finally getting their win? Maybe they're only one for the year and just a bit of a letdown spot. I don't even know if you're a situational gambler. Well, I think that I worry because they're probably popping corks with the 76 Dolphins after, well, I guess we saw the 49ers, but I feel like they can celebrate a little bit. You know, they can celebrate the Patriots no longer undefeated, so maybe a literal hangover from all that. But I think for me, it's mostly about the Colts pace that would push me towards being okay with the Dolphins because it's harder to cover 10 and a half when you're running a slow pace, running the ball a lot. And I think that with Hilton hurts and not a hundred percent, even if he does play, I think that sets up well for Miami, plus 10 and a half. Get the win, get out of there. And with that said, I'll use one of my survivor picks on Indianapolis this week. Right. Frank Wright's not going to let him lose. Frank Wright's a smart guy. And that's why they've been so run heavy this year. I mean, they're super efficient with this. So why not? You know, so I think it should be a very interesting game. But it'll be a fun one, too. Did I mention that the Bears also took Mac Nagy over Frank Reich? Yeah. Well, I mean, the Colts took, it took, oh, what's his name? Well, they tried to give it to Daniels. Yeah. Yeah. So a couple of teams with him there, for sure. That is Joe Ostrowski. Find him on Twitter at Joe 0670. You can find him on You Better, You Bet, or 670, the score in Chicago. One of those places pretty much every night. So Joe, I know you're busy. Thank you for stopping by here today and talking week 10 with us. I appreciate it. And good luck to you this weekend. Thanks guys. It was a lot of fun. Covering the future. One final thank you to Joe Ostrowski for swinging by and joining us for today here on Covering the Spread. Again, follow Joe on Twitter at Joe 0670. You can find his work on You Better, You Bet, and also on 670, the score in Chicago. We'll take a look at Covering the Future in just one second at first. Ed and I always preach searching for the best value in betting on games. Well, look no further than the new Odds comparison our engineers have developed over at Numberfire.com. Odds Fire is the premier Odds comparison experience across major bookmakers in the regulated U.S. market. Compare Odds, quickly identify the best value, and even examine first-party fan dual data all in one place. Never settle, always get the best odds. Check out the experience for free now at Numberfire or at OddsFire.com. Gambling problem, call 1-800 at Gambler. Let's dive now into Covering the Future, sticking with week number 10 of the NFL. Ed, you're going to talk about Carolina versus Green Bay. And again, I think this is a pretty fun game. I want to see how this thing plays out. But what do you see with this one here?  And I was kind of wondering, like, why my number only makes them about a three point dog. And it really comes down to Green Bay's defense. So this is a unit that got off to a great start. We all remember that Thursday night game against the Bears, where they looked really good. And then they played Minnesota the next game also looked pretty good. Well, those offenses haven't been so hot this year. And Green Bay's offense has really been bad lately. So over the past five games, every team, except for Detroit, has had a better than 50% success rate against Green Bay's defense. And just to put that in perspective, you know, the NFL average is 42%. Success rate is, again, a stat that I've been looking at NFL in college. It plays a success if you get 50% of the yards on first down, 70% on second down, and all on on third and fourth down. So Green Bay's defense is really struggled with with success rate. You know, the passing success rate, success rate doesn't look that bad. They're 15th in the NFL. But they're dead last in rushing success rate. And you kind of have to go back. So when I was researching this team in the preseason, football outsiders looked, talked about how Mike Petten was putting more defensive backs on the field compared to linebackers. So essentially, Blake Martinez is the only linebacker that's out there for every snap. They're putting more guys in the secondary. But and it seems from the snap data that I have over at PFF that that they're continuing to employ the strategy. However, I think teams are adjusting to it in the sense that, you know, they're taking what they can get running the ball against against a smaller defense. And, you know, this is not a bad idea to put more defensive backs to slow down the pass. But there's limits, right? Because we know passing is way more important in the NFL. But there's limits to what you can do. And it doesn't look like it's working well for Green Bay in the sense that their rush defense is so bad. And it doesn't really look like they're preventing big plays on the defense side of the ball through the air. So when I look at adjusted yards per pass attempt, they're 21st, the Chargers, the Raiders and the Cowboys have all thrown for more than nine yards per attempt against the defense. So this is a unit that's really struggling. That's what my numbers like Carolina plus five and a half in this game. And that's what I'm going with. And I think the two, like Mike Patton, this flat out said he does not care about stopping the run. And to an extent that makes sense. And you were alluding to this because rushing or stopping the pass is more important than stopping the rush. But if it's not, if foregoing stopping the rush is not allowing you to be good against stopping the pass, then there's kind of no point. You should be allotting more resources to stopping the pass. And if that forces or allows seems to run better against you, cool, whatever.  And it wasn't just Chicago and Minnesota, those first two games. It was also Denver was the third team that they faced. And Joe Flacco has since been injured or jettisoned off depending on, you know, which conspiracy theory you choose to believe. And we've seen teams in that. What this does is it also decreases the sample, because it's going to lead to a slower game against the Packers when the opposing team is running a lot. It leads to decreased exposure to Aaron Rodgers, decreased exposure to Aaron Jones. And that's going to lead to more variants. And that's why we see games like we saw against the Chargers because the Chargers ran for I think like a buck 70 against this Packers defense that shouldn't happen, given how bad the Chargers offensive line is and how bagged up they are. But I think I think that you're right here. It's it's very concerning. And the Panthers defense, they're also really bad against the rush, but they're pretty good against pass. So I think that I think this game could play under, honestly, and I'm interested to see how it does go. Yeah, absolutely. And just, you know, when I do these adjusted success rate numbers, I get a rating, which is essentially like a success rate against an average opposition. And on rushing, it's almost 50%. So they're passing one is pretty good. It's like 43. But 50 rushing, you know, you don't want to put yourself in a situation where the average NFL offense is having successful plays on 50%. There's also a lot of wind in this game, which is going to further encourage rushing. So keep that in mind too. Again, I think the under here is pretty interesting. That's not where I'm going to go from my covering the future, because I want to talk about Atlanta, because right now, there is a lot of stink around this Atlanta Falcons team.  And it's justifiable that we view this team very negatively because of how bad their defense is. But it shouldn't be because of their offense. And once you adjust for schedule, Atlanta's actually number fires 11th ranked passing offense to the full season. They just can't run. But you don't want to run against New Orleans anyway, because New Orleans ranks third against the rush based on those numbers. They are ninth against the past. They're still a good past defense, but they're not a team you want to run on ever and Atlanta can't run anyway. That means that Atlanta is probably going to throw the ball quite a bit in this game. And they're pretty good at that. Again, ranking 11th as a passing offense, despite not having Matt Ryan for one of those games. So they will also likely have to throw to keep up here. So I'm expecting heavy passing volume to keep pace at and keep the pace of this game elevated. The Falcons right now, their team total over a Fandall sports book is 19 points. I want the over on that number because this team has scored at least 19 points in five of a game so far this year. And three of those games have come one on the road. All those games where they hit the over on 19 points were also indoors. And this one will be indoors too. And I in general like games indoors because you know the wind, there's a ton of wind on this weekend. There is no wind in the Superdome. I would hope not at least if there is. We got a bigger issue, but I think that they're going to be able to throw quite a bit. I'm not sure I can bet the spread here because the defense is so hideous and it really makes difficult to get jazz about any spread involving Atlanta because they could let out 53 points, in which case they have to score 40 to cover a 13 point spread. But I think that when we're looking at this team total being at 19 points, I do feel pretty good about that getting them getting to that number. I just think we're a bit too low on this team as a whole because of the stink around the defense. The Saints defense is good, but so is Atlanta's offense. So I am fully okay with going over on the Falcons team total at 19 points. Ed, any read on this game as a whole for you? So there's been a lot of talk about Matt Ryan declining. I think I actually talked to Rufus about that like a couple weeks ago. But you know, when I'm looking at passing success rate, they're third in the NFL. Obviously got a pretty good game from Matt Schaub there as well. Matt Ryan's PFF grade is about 71, which isn't great, but it's also not terrible as well. So definitely supports you're going over that team total for Atlanta. I think it'll be a fun game to watch because from a DFS perspective, I want to stack that game. So I want to see how that one goes. But hopefully Atlanta can keep pace. That is all we have for today. Ed, any big things for you this weekend? It can be about, you know, it can be about the power, right? But anything else, personal life, fun stuff planned for this weekend? Yeah, what was I going to say? Actually, you know what?  So I've been watching with my boys, something called pitch meeting. It's this guy, Ryan George, that essentially talks to himself and he's both the movie, you know, the studio executive and the producer pitch in the movie. It's a really a hilarious. They're really good. So go check that out. And Ryan George also has like his own YouTube channel where he's again talking to himself. It's an interesting use of video in the sense that you have to watch it to figure out who's talking. Right. So you can't just listen to it because it's the same voice. So you kind of have to watch the video. It's hilarious. I highly recommend checking it out. So yeah, I might do some of that with my boys this weekend. I actually ran into an issue with Narcos, the Netflix show. I know I know enough Spanish to like get by like if I need to get by, but I'm not fluent enough to like keep up if there are no subtitles. So like I couldn't like most of my TV consumption is like as a secondary thing. So I'm, you know, working on work or whatever and have it on the background, but I can't do Narcos as like a background show. So I kind of had to like ditch it. But I also I relate to the talking to yourself because that's literally what I do on my baseball podcast or it's just me.  And it's very weird. I'm sure my fiance thinks I'm a coupe. Like she's probably right. But I relate to that. So Ryan George, right? Ryan George. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. He's a man. And it's interesting because it gives me visions of like, you know, me being the analytics guy and me also being the coach and like a video to work on that for could be a script that we could work on. Yeah. I like this. All right. So check out Ryan George. Check out Ryan George. He's hilarious and definitely worth it. All right. After you do that, make sure you check out thepowerrank.com as well and check out Ed's podcast, the football analytics show. Ben Baldwin, always a fun guy to listen to. So check that out with the football analytics show. I am on Twitter at Jim Sonnis, J-I-M-S-A-N-N-E-S. You can also follow the FanDuel Podcast Network. We had our DFS podcast week number 10. Go up earlier today. You can find that by searching for the Number Fire Daily Fantasy podcast. And while you're doing that, make sure you also subscribe to covering the spread to get our week 11 college football betting podcast of the RISP body and then get set for next week as well. Big thank you to Calvin and Theobald for producing the video side of things here for today. Thank you, Cal, for keeping us on the air as always. And thank you to Joe Ostrowski for swinging by and spreading his knowledge. But week 10 of the NFL. Follow him on Twitter at JoeO670. Do you want to thank you all for tuning in for today? Good luck with your bets for college football and the NFL this weekend. We'll talk to you again next week. This has been covering the spread right here on the FanDuel Podcast Network.


It's a great honor for us to be here and actually to be shared one of the good practices born in pre-accession countries to be shared to be the EU 28. So thank you very much for that and usually my surprise and ender is Roy Gatero trying to go again back. I was prepared to speak after the bank but now before the bank so please Peter support what I'm sharing. I'm coming from the single world of education. And you know we people in education how we see actually our mind is almost very enthusiastic and we see like babies born and there is a simple way up. But then we are living nowadays in the very complex world and actually it's not simple anymore. It's not just way up but there is a lot of obstacles and what we faced up is actually that our citizens in the pre-accession region are not able to face with all these things and just to quote Thomas Jefferson said every generation need a new revolution. What you find out is actually it's also shared with the economists that the revolution of the current generation is entrepreneurial and what we saw in the region is very applicable for us that what we need. We need to learn how to apply more brain power, how to think in more creative ways and actually how to raise the productivity and social problems that we can compete in the global economy. And the title which Peter has transition stocks in the transition I'm 48. And you know this fashionable word of transition started when I was in the primary school. And I am in transition all my life so I'm young actually you know. So why Cecil is born? Cecil is the first institutional development born through the very important EU document called Small Business Act for Europe. And you can see it's born out of EU 28. It's born in pre-accession and it's actually started on the request of the eight countries for structured cooperation in 2008. Then Croatia offered to support to coordinate all the activities and institutional setting is actually born in 2009. And our mission is that in line with the principle one and principle eight and you know that Small Business Act has ten principles so two out of ten are dedicated to human capital development. If we also put that in line with the entrepreneurship action plan, EU 2020 entrepreneurship action plan the first priority is to develop the entrepreneurial iterate society and actually as Commissioner Barossa said and president of the commission said it's time to act according to thinking entrepreneurial. So this is our motto think to act entrepreneurial. So who are the co-founders? The co-founders of the center are creation ministry of entrepreneurship. So Republic of Croatia represented by the relevant ministry and we are very proud that in Croatia we have even the ministry for dedicated to SME development and creation chamber of economy. Why these two partners? Because actually we were thinking that from the beginning from the step one government and businesses need to go you know in the same step in the same ethos and to cooperate. Then the CISEL board is actually international one composed of the representatives of the eight countries. Each country from the CISEL member states so is Albania, Croatia, Bosnia, Herzegovina, Oslo Macedonia, Serbia and Turkey together with Croatia actually they have each country has two representatives. One is coming from the SME relevant ministry and it's a national SBA coordinator. What is the pre-accession country is the SBA coordinator the relevant person in EU member state is EU SME envoy. So and the second person is coming from the minister of education. It was very nice discussion oh but we have two representative per country so what if we don't agree you know in the governance process so we are practicing open method of coordination guys please discuss at home education economy sit together discuss and then vote for the decision and we can say it's working since 2009 if someone say it's not possible yes it is it's working financial support of course you can have wonderful ideas but if there is no the financial envelope for supporting the actions actually it's just the enthusiasm nothing else so financial support is coming from the European Commission through the envelope called you know we are living in the world of acronyms so EPA-MB stands for instrument for pre-accession for multi-beneficiary purposes or to simplify it's EU envelope for regional cooperation of pre-accession countries. You are familiar that the support EU envelopes for pre-accession countries are going in two not different but two complementary waves one is the national envelope for each country which is called EPA and the second envelope is for the regional cooperation the purpose of the regional cooperation envelope is that through modalities of regional cooperation we are helping developments on the national level and the additional support is coming from the creation national budget and allow me to use again this opportunity to thank European Commission for our support so delegation thank you very much and also creation ministry but we're also proud to share with you that since last year we have requests from the member states to financially contribute to our budget so it's the first example that the countries on their own initiative want to contribute in the budget without political push so it's not born through the stability-backed actions it is the decision of the countries to contribute in the budget so minus all and I already shared with you some kind of the developments under the EU envelopes what is also interesting to be shared with you that the president of the Boris creation minister of entrepreneurship and also all these developments are shared within the EU SME and we network which is coordinated by director coming from DJ Enterprise mr. Kaleha and it's already shared that this kind of initiatives would be also relevant for the EU 28 Cecil is at the moment recognized as a center of excellence if entrepreneurial learning by European Commission in several big documents so it's guide for educators for you 28 related to entrepreneurship education then we are subject to implementation of AC 2020 strategy which is a new strategy macro regional strategy for pre-accession countries then we are one of direct actions within the new strategy and also we are stated as one of the actions under the new macro regional strategy which is just to be adopted during the Greek presidency it's Adriatic Ionian macro regional strategy but also in parallel we are supported through another acronym or financial envelope which is Western Balkans investment framework which is dedicated to support of infrastructural solution and we're happy to share with you that Cecil was awarded with this support among railways and hospitals and jails and roads which is the fashion in the region I know when I'm mentioning jails but this is where the support is coming and we are the solid social regional infrastructural project project so we are currently also implementing the activities under the Western Balkans investment framework and with great happiness I can share with you that there is the idea and already the money is ensured for building and construction the future home of Cecil in Zagreb with the preconditions and also willingness to serve as a future European center of expertise for entrepreneurial learning and we are already awarded as a break one of the best practices in the limitation of small business act for Europe okay just to share with you the ethos of small business act for Europe all these very important principles and of course we're talking about the rules of think small first so it's cutting the red tape and access to finance because this is now nowadays this is the burning issue or actually how to operate under the single market because it's not so easy when you are moving from from pre-accession status when you are operating within the sector agreements third agreements and then you are moving to operate under the single market it's very serious issue so two out of ten are dealing with human capital and this is our areas of operation and this is where the Cecil actions are focused on so you know the drawing is always the nicest way to explain the things so one of the preconditions for Cecil operations are that old parties need to be involved so we are practicing open method of coordination in every of our actions the keyword the magic you know that they're behind the every success story there is always a magic not common sense so it's a magic what are the magic words partnership and partnership and partnership partnership on international level partnership on national level between the different parts of the of the ministries or governments and also sectors so education on one side economy on the other side and then partnership on the local level why on the local level because if we go deeper in the ethos of SMEs there is a nice stories SMEs go globally then you have the story about the firm who succeed from the micro company to make a business with United States or globally yes it's a nice one but it's a rare example and it's always the subject of Hollywood movie but in reality the SMEs are giving the atmosphere and they're operating in the ethos of local environment of local communities and if they're growing and go internationally usually they're making a business with the neighbors within the region so our focus is actually the key message is how today developed entrepreneurial society not just with the primary goal just to increase the number of startups but also to increase the number of opportunity-driven startups which is having the element of increasing and fostering the competitiveness of our economies and also the second line of effect or the impact which we would like to be this kind of actions to achieve is that through entrepreneurial way of thinking we increase the general level of efficiency of all economies and this is what the ethos is behind and if we are serious then the focus need to be on entrepreneurial student no matter if it is a five six five years old or as I am 48 years old or entrepreneurial teacher and entrepreneurial school why we have these three elements because usually we are witnessing in all of our pre-accession countries a lot of money was spent for training of teachers but if you don't take the unit of change in educational system which is a educational institution it's a waste of money the second thing is triple helix model so if we are serious with the boosting competitiveness of our economies and to support innovation so it is not possible without a cooperation between universities business world and the government it sounds very easy but it's not and this is one of our areas of operations so the cooperation is crucial I would also like to share with you that actually the eight ministries from the region in 2012 they sit together on the table they signed the charter for entrepreneurial learning and this is the first such example even for you 28 and actually the ministers from the region they like the sentence this sentence very much when the right people sit around the table problems or issues become opportunities to be more diplomatic not problems talk about problems so this is the basis of our operation at the moment we are also recognized in all these documents as I already shared with you and we are very happy to share with you that since one and a half month ago we are recognized also by the commission to be the official institution to monitoring the implementation of the small business act in pre-accession region why this is important because small business act implementation is the subject also of progress report of each country and progress report is also giving the direction of national EU envelopes for national developments also we since 2009 we got three awards and we are happy and proud on them to be champions you know if we cannot want the Olympic Games but still we can be champions here and recognition by European Parliament among all the EU projects to be the most successful let's we say and also recognition by the knowledge economy network which is the global what is the methodology which kind of methodology we are applying in our work Cecil is not just working with independent institutions counting for experts everything need to go in line with the whole structures everything need to go in line with the small business act for Europe process so actually the key person for us is a nationalized big coordinator and we are operating in the ethos of evidence-based policymaking because at the end of the day this is where the countries express need for because they said we are lacking the evidence basis or evidences for the long-term policymaking so in the first phase we are working all together eight countries representatives in the development of instruments and actually development of the most applicable shoes for each country because you know that there is no one shoes fit all if I cannot wear the high heels I cannot it's hurting me so we are trying to discuss all of us and we need to be aware and eight countries are have differences Montenegro 670,000 citizens on one side and then you have a Turkey more than 70 million people and there is no the same solution what is applicable for the country of the bigger size can kill Montenegro in implementation because they will not have enough people to support infrastructure solution so when the instrument is developed in education there is no festoon scenario because if you go on the festoon scenario in education you're causing the earthquake and actually everything need to go in line with the strategic piloting reflecting on that correcting and then be ready for full implementation so yeah all together eight countries we are piloting the instrument developed and then if it the primary learning is defined as a key competence if it is a key competence then it more it must work universally no matter of the size of the country on the language of the religion and culture if it is universal value it's need to work and now I'm sharing with you it working it working and we have results after that the instrument is ready for full implementation what that means concretely that means the instrument is handed back to the national governments and it's ready for the further development or the broader scale so it's already agreed with the European Commission what is born through the CISL activities can be further supported through the national envelopes and we already have examples from Macedonia developing the national strategy and implementing that in the regular system in Serbia they are just developing that in Bosnia and Herzegovina we are all aware of the geocomplexity of the functioning in Bosnia Herzegovina entrepreneurial learning is the project supported by the European Commission currently going on for the second generation in Montenegro they just applied in the Parliament international strategy for entrepreneurial learning in Albania they signed a strategic partnership and who left and Kosovo they are moving very fast it's a consensus of and Turkey in Turkey we have a great support and example where the national agencies for SMEs it's Cosgap is actually starting for the first time it's great to follow that example to work with the schools so and you need to know the fact that Cosgap is the national agency who is in charge for national SME strategy implementation so it's a great achievement a great experience which we have from all these countries and actually so the basic definition for our countries is even more concrete than it is for you 28 in eight system member states they are talking about need for entrepreneurial literacy and this is the premier literacy is including the basic understanding of economic concepts financial literacy and also how to think and act internationally what are our strategic pillars of actions so is that one and two is that three is that five and six TNI women entrepreneurs so all these acronyms and numbers to simplify primary education secondary tertiary education and how strategically to develop the instruments to support current entrepreneurs for currently operating why all these lines because currently operating SMEs they have a big problem they cannot wait for educational system to respond in ten years they need to work operate compete now what they have time to wait they have time for six months to wait for some kind of reallocation in the national budget and actions then for training so with DNA we're targeting the immediate need how we can how you can make the corrective actions within the national development to support SMEs currently DNA is actually the training needs analysis which is driven by demand side not from the supply side planning but then from the demand side and here we are working with the most representative business associations for each country how actually can follow on the needs of SMEs and then in the structural dialogue with the relevant ministry they can make the reallocation and correction of the budget so how to increase the efficiency of the public money is the five six higher education is midterm so how you can support the midterm actions in improving the environment the entrepreneurial environment and here we are working in line with European Commission guidelines related to the entrepreneurship in non-business studies and is step one and two is step three are actually important for long term actions for the society how in the long term you are creating the friendly environment for entrepreneurs and actually the friendly attitude based on the competencies women entrepreneurs is a project supported by the Swedish Development Envelope and here we have nine countries cooperating together so Moldova join us I would like to share with you this is for the first time that within the Small Business Act two geographical regions are cooperating together pre-accession in Eastern partnership countries and this is the experience which now European Commission is building further on that and actually the whole process is going in that direction just to share with you for us the women entrepreneurs is pure economic issue just some facts if you talk about women entrepreneurs that the ratio of women entrepreneurs participating in the common economies of our countries are between 8% in one country to the 30% so we are all going together in the same direction actually to reach the goal stated for EU member states which is around more 40% of representatives and actually the simple sentence of CISO Moldova Perandi is that actually the entrepreneurs of tomorrow are in our schools today so if we are not focused nowadays on actions how we can actually think about the pink future so these are the instruments developed they are broadly used recognized by the Commission this one is stated already in the Commission as a recommendation for year 28 it's also translated in Russian and there are some kind of negotiations to be also translated in Arabic for metacountries and you are very welcome to use that because it's public available it's produced from the public money so it's for the public use also these are our instruments not just to do the time on that and we have results from the first implementation of the training needs analysis for eight countries as well as for the women entrepreneurs with the sampling around 2500 SMEs in eight countries but you can find it on our website so in numbers is get one and two sixty four strategic pilot institutions known to the national governments and dominated by them and actually these institutions have a title of entrepreneurial school of South East Europe they are all cooperating together and they all also peer visiting each other then is get three is get three secondary schools 32 institutions in eight countries again same principle known to the government nominated by them used as a center of excellence is on the national level is get five six 32 higher educational institutions in eight countries cooperating together and sharing the experience for TNA eight the most representative business associations so per each country at the moment we have seven strategic institutions who are cooperating with different ministries in respect of develop the development programs for on the national level or in total 136 institutions in eight countries and strategically cooperating more than 500 experts in the field and for us again I am going back to the shoes of educational expert for us the unit of change is not solid teacher not so a student but it's a system so the unit of change is cool as it is when we talk about SMEs when we talk about SMEs the unit of observation in a world of SMEs is a company no matter if it is a micro is small or medium but the unit of observation is a company and how they are performing in the global market so for us is entrepreneurial school and all of these three elements need to go together but you can see one element here parents and we would like to share with you experience from the eight countries you know again magic for transition also we experience the co-collapse of our industries in some regions and we have in each country we have totally I will not use the word the vasting regions but we have a regions with a very big problem in development of economies and high unemployment rate and what we are facing with that actually in these regions in all of eight countries the schools become very attractive factor for the parents population and you need to be aware the parents population of each two students are people between 35 and 45 years old and actually this is the vulnerable part of population and we find out that there is a great role schools cooperating together with the regional development agencies and SME agencies that they can increase this kind of entrepreneurial activity in this population and I would like to conclude with a very simple sentence the entrepreneurs of tomorrow are in our schools today and thank you very much again for inviting us and I'm open for your critical


Thank you so much for sharing this great project and so many great ideas. I would like to call to stage our panelists or our response team, two of whom have already spoken yesterday. So welcome Tim and welcome Cecilia. And we are happy to introduce also Yasemin, a Czech graduate. She is together with Marmara University and will be joining us today. Thanks so much. So definitely where Tim left us yesterday, where you said great things happened outside of your comfort zone. So this is as a designer, definitely outside of my comfort zone. And I think also in a way as Istanbul to really listen to the words of the kids in such kind of in the rawest way is also I think it's a little unsettling. So it's really nice to see these two presentations. I think that challenge at least to a designer how we kind of operate in our offices talking to the client only if possible very kind of controlled conversations. So you know things can move efficiently. So what we have seen I think a very inefficient process that Hector described or what you would call a very inefficient process. But a very efficient of course process to build a community which is something that is something that I would really want to see put into practice in my environment also. I'm sure it has happened but I haven't witnessed it. So this is somehow a craving for me. So in that sense I'll ask my first question to Yasemin and him that she will kind of ask also to the presenters. You are teaching public administration and we have seen efforts to make it understandable with the Children's Istanbul team trying to make it understandable to children with Hector trying to communicate it with the community to them get a project moving. Is it really that complicated? I mean I'm really curious is it really that complicated public administration that I know nothing about it in a way like when I sit and think I decide that I'm ignorant. Why and what are the tools could be introduced that actually it is not that impossible to kind of understand the steps that creates a E-mar plan or kind of a building a zoning plan in Istanbul. Hello. First of all I would like to thank you for being in such a place. Now public administration is actually a place that I've been in since then. I'm a city council. I started to think about it 11 years ago on Children's and Public Administration but it's been 5 years since I started to work in this area. It's been about 4 years since I started to work in public administration. I started to work on the size of the children's public administration. I actually saw something like this there. In public administration in Istanbul, in the work I do with public administration children actually are very sick. They really want to do something. But because there is no child policy, because it is not produced, they can do things that are not connected to each other. They have very serious problems with their own visions. They know how to reflect on their strategic plans. Because they don't have any understanding of the child. They don't have a relationship with each other. This creates serious problems in public administration. I understood that there was a serious problem between the plan and the application and the city planning discipline. The city planning discipline is based on how the management is, how the public administration is, and how the local administration is. Since the management is a bit broken up and the city planners have a serious problem with the local administration. They see themselves in a problem about how to explain to the management. And how the management of the city planning is the most important thing in the city. They don't know what to do but they see themselves in a problem with the management of the city. So there is a very serious problem between the two. The reason for this problem is that there was something we found with students in a classroom. There are things that are generally similar to the city in the world. We are 40% healthy, and we plan and design for a person with a strong hand. And we manage that way. The elderly, the disabled, the elderly, the elderly, and at least in Turkey, the children, the elderly, the children, the elderly, the different ethnic groups are not treated very well. And when you are sick or pregnant, you realize that the city is very serious when you are trying. For the sake of my child, I try to be pregnant and then I try to be with my child and try to be with my baby wife. I see that wild side and when I was studying children's drawings when I was studying children's drawings we couldn't breathe very clearly. There is no serious problem in this city. When I was reading the messages when someone heard our voice, as I said before, they wanted to look at the child and it was very good. There was energy in the suppliers but the designers and planners are new to this. I think this community is very valuable when we see that the suppliers are here. When we hear about this with various effects I believe that they will realize how this relationship is going to be. Designers, scientists, and children's developers and the management of the project I believe that this will be a good thing for the private sector. If we get through to Istanbul quickly I am curious about this actually we have a project going on and we have a chance to use it in some of them. Do these children have the same children from different groups in each sector? Who will come from there? Or do you follow the same children who do different tutorials in a few months? Do you have a chance to use it? I will start. I will answer quickly. Everyone therefore when our tutorial program is announced there may be a couple of participants who want to join this tutorial but we are not always following the same children who want to be open who want to join who want to be free who want to join this is more important because it's a question of the family most important is all children and families to be able to participate in this kind of work and to be free is the most important part of this project It is true. As you said, there are certainly some parts of the equipment you use. Even though it is free. We also use our own equipment. We try to invite our students and teachers to use our equipment. It is not enough to say, we use our own equipment. This is an important thing. Cecilia, this will be a question to you. I would like to ask a question to you next. This will be a little bit of a challenge. But since Bernhard Van Nier has taken on this Urban 95 program, which is super inspiring, obviously it can bring together a whole room. This conversation has just started between planners and early childhood specialists. We saw a very particular method of creating a planning environment in Hector's presentation. But how much is Bernhard Van Nier interested in actually fostering that? Because obviously the earlier panel also very valuable work, very interesting work, starts with the leadership. But at the same time, there is the opposite also. I won't call them opposites, but I would like to also see how much room will you be creating for dealing grassroots. Maybe yesterday I probably didn't have time, but we actually believe that participatory processes lead to sustain any kind of policy. You need to start working in all different levels. So on one side you need participatory processes to sustain social mobility so they can basically support any kind of project. I think that the challenge that we thought with Urban 95 is that usually children under three years old don't speak. So if you're thinking about participatory processes where you want to get babies' points of views, it's kind of difficult because they don't speak language usually, or they're just starting to speak. So we're not thinking about the normal kind of workshops that I've heard today. So that's why we think it's very important to kind of break this silence that we usually think of when we're thinking about early childhood development, that we're thinking about children from zero to five, or we're even including pregnant women. But we're actually thinking about a community that cares about babies, and this means bringing together all different stakeholders and trying to promote different participatory processes that you can invite on one side that direct caregivers that are usually mothers in most societies, of course we want to engage more fathers, and that's part of the challenge. Can we get more fathers' voices? Why aren't Turkish fathers taking care of their babies directly? Is there anything in the public space that we can make differently so we can engage more fathers to come together and take care of their children and play with their children and interact with their children? Are we doing something differently about elderly people, usually in many different societies in the world, the main caregiver are usually grandparents? And just to give you an example, because we do have many positive experiences of participatory processes, especially in Latin America, we were talking with Pedro this morning and there's a lot of things going on in Brazil, in Lima, in Bura, in many of the cities in Bogotá. And I think one of the interesting things that we realize is, for example, many of the elderly caregivers, they say that one of the main requirements in public space is to have access to bathrooms. And this sounds ridiculous that this would be one of the barriers for many, like, all caregivers to use public space in a more frequent way, but this is definitely one of the key issues for many elderly people to use and to spend more time in public space. So I'm just sharing a couple of examples, but I do want to say that there's a huge tension between participatory processes and the speak that many times municipalities need to promote in order to implement programs. And we need to find ways, and I would be curious to know which has been the timing of these participatory processes, because, of course, ideally, we're all involved in designing all these beautiful things, but I see many different tensions. On one side, you get these great ideas. You get a lot of engagement from the community. They are empowered to support the idea. But on the other hand, also, you may be creating expectations that it's very hard to accomplish many times because of the cost of the kind of ideas that come up. So I think we need to find a way that we can deal better with these participatory processes that can gather different views from different stakeholders, put together a plan, reach a social consensus about different ideas. But you also need to find a way that experts can make those ideas be more cost effective, because sometimes the tension there doesn't allow us to implement things. David, I guess you have to answer. I'm not sure if I have an answer. I feel like I've learned a couple of things that we have with Hector, from people who do work in community organizations, who draw a very strict distinction between, I think, what is oftentimes our notion as designers and planners of a participatory process that is attached to a single project and that is organized through a mechanism to gather feedback, whether that's a meeting or a survey, that then is distilled from some kind of consensus that is then, in theory, implemented versus a process of what they would call building power, where there is an ongoing effort to build the capacity and the agency of people in a neighborhood, such that when the municipality comes to them, it's not the beginning point. They are ready to meet them with their own notions and ideas that doesn't result in consensus. Oftentimes, at least where we work, it is a knock-down and drag-out fact and that's, I think, why oftentimes our clients want to spend as much time in a continuous fashion building that power oftentimes to the dismay of us planners and designers. I'll have that in context of this particular project you talked about sort of like where was the timing or the inputting point it wasn't that we, as designers, went there and said, well, would you like a soccer field or a volleyball field and this was more like, what does it take for our community groups to get along and understand the process to build and invest into our parks? So once the community groups had the committee meetings, monthly meetings throughout the planning process, which was 18 months, and they, once they gained sort of the understanding of the park-building process in South Philadelphia that is very specific, which is sort of making the policy public, which is something that you're talking about, then the issue wasn't so much about, oh, we have this beautiful rendering, we're afraid that the community will expect, you know, $7 million project when we only have $2 million, right? Like, the community is very much aware of what it takes to raise either $2 million or $7 million or none at all and what that would mean for their coalition. But, I mean, this has been really great, also great kind of awakening for me that this actually is also information that we are doing the right thing that we are trying to build a powerful community around the issues of babies and childhood and communities and that takes a lot of stakeholders and we have a room full of psychologists and early childhood specialists and kindergarten teachers and municipal staff and architects and designers. So, I guess it's a good affirmation as a method that we just need to move forward with it so that I just had to say it because I thought, okay, so this is a good thing to do. So, in that sense that continuing hearing children is of course a very important part of that also and I'm curious actually comments maybe from Tim also I don't know how much you work directly with children and or do you have any kind of methods or questions that you would like to point to to say, yeah, like you should also look at these, these are also good examples of creating agency for children. I think there's a long history of children's participatory planning in urban planning and design some people in this room know of it at an international level the work that came out of UNICEF and the growing up in cities program is probably the most well known and I think, so the place has started to say what have we learned from that model that's a highly participatory model strong focus on the process the direct engagement of children in decision making creating governance or trying to influence decision making governance and I think it's broadly recognised that that model has not succeeded it has not succeeded in any real meaningful way in influencing how cities are built in may have had some marginal benefits in other areas but this is not me talking this is a book that came out last year that described the progress on the influence of city building by children as being glacial these are academics who are working in this field so that's not working we also know there are plenty of examples of so called consultation engagement that are window dressing that are tokenistic that are an idle wheel in the process where a model is produced and from the children somewhere over there and it's called into a room and everybody claps and then everybody does what they were going to do anyway so those are real tensions I think maybe this is some of what you were alluding to this is difficult stuff and so I guess my I'm a skeptic I start from a skeptical point of view and to try and sense what are the questions we are trying to answer here what don't we know what difference do we want to make and how can we find out what we want to know and make a difference in an effective and a fair way and so I think those are the questions we should be starting with not how do we involve children there might be some circumstances where we just don't need to involve children because we have all the answers there might be other cases where we need to go right back to first principles and it sounds to me like Mifflin Square Park is one of those cases because the ordinary you know methods of participation weren't getting to the root of the conflicts in that space so I think that about why question why do we want to involve children and then the how and then how do we do that in a good way since yeah I'd like to ask Jens to contribute because he wanted to and I think it's only fair so please yeah so I'm not representing UNICEF as much as I would in the sense that I'm also just starting there but I also looked at all this previous work that UNICEF did and also confirmed and I'm happy also that Tim raised it I think there has been a time that participation with children has been set so high as an objective whereas I think the cases also show that participation is also rather a meme to get somewhere and to build that citizenship and conversation with children to also actually do something and whereas also you also say like you can just suddenly start participation on a concrete project if there's also a very deep distrust and there's no civic citizenship or there's a lot of things to be fixed so we have to work on both sides I think and I think what I think is very important is to try to build that double level and to actually avoid the tension on a neighbourhood level because I think on a neighbourhood level you can have results quite in a limited amount of time like 5 years for example so you can work with the community to build that trust and dive deep into very concrete projects and to avoid the tokenistic approach for example that is I think also very well described by a lot of specialists already in the 70s and 80s that that's not going to go but at the other side also not expect that you can go immediately to a very refined participation and have results the next year so I think it has to be present both and it can be very feasible on a neighbourhood level. Thank you so much. What do you want to say? I want to add something to involve children in the development of this project now we are trying to hear the voices of these children, hear the management, hear the planters, hear the documents etc. but we also heard that it is necessary that the families also need to hear their children all this work in the process already in the form of work when possible we are also trying to provide the maximum family participation because it is not visible actually the families also very much children's problems we witnessed that they were not aware of this this great metropolis has a lot of possibilities the families who think that they are involved in this are actually more aware of the real needs of the children therefore when the children are involved these families also need to find a way to heal their hearing there was a very interesting example do you want to tell in detail I remember yes we all remember one of our workshops is in Istanbul in a foreign country children living in Istanbul where do you take them where do you have time to have fun they do group work five or six people we ask them and we want them to prepare a meal but we have a few conditions first of all it is important not to spend any money or spend a lot of money in Istanbul children's meal a boy with a cooperation from a 3% economy company we all know in the group there was no exchange between other children and they felt very bad because they went Gülhane Park, Galata Bridge, Fish, etc. We were speaking in an equal language from this square. She started crying because she couldn't even speak. She was a child with a strong relationship until that time. We tried to understand what was going on. I don't know anyone who can speak. She started crying and wanted to go. We talked a little bit and we talked later with her mother. Until the end of her studies, she took me there immediately. She took me to the museums and museums she wanted. I said I don't know anyone who can speak. We left her to go to the museum to see what happened. But she didn't go. They were going to go to the museum. This was a very cold and lonely example. But we were living in a similar way. After her studies, she joined her family and asked their children questions and comments. But what they heard from the children is more than what they heard from us. It's so different. Because there are all kinds of things. Children are always very fond of it. But I think it's a society that I respect the most. I love it, it's cold and lonely. When there is a chance to listen, to hear, to understand, they feel very serious. Thank you very much. If anyone wants to ask questions, we can answer them. This one. Hello. My name is Mahatep Elan. I'm a teacher. We had a workshop with Sibelian. I was curious about the result then. Now I'm curious. At the end of these workshops, according to different age groups or different religious groups, do you have any certain differences in perception and expectations? What are your thoughts? Can you share with us? Thank you, father. Do you have any differences in perception? Of course, there are differences in perception. Of course, there are differences in perception as they change their needs. But first of all, if you try to draw the bottom line, the difference in social economy is the most. The difference in perception is the most. The difference in social economy is the difference in background. That's what we see the most. The children who are in the story, the children who are not in the story, maybe we can separate them, the children who are in the story. There are children who are in the story with a lot of communication. There are children who are connected to the place. When they are not connected to the place, when they are connected to their place and when they are connected to their place, they are faced with something. When we think of the biggest perception, we think of the biggest difference when we think of the biggest perception. I don't know if there is anything to add. I can add just one thing. If you remember the work you did with the families, they told us very good stories. They told us stories about the balcony and the balcony with the wooden roof. They told us stories about the balcony. Think about it. There is no other story than the park where we can live. There is no other story to tell. Stories are very important in terms of personal development. They tell the story of the children in the neighborhood. Even in the drawings of the children, they don't understand anything. They tell a great story. What they want to motivate us is something that can be a story. We have this peculiar reverse expectation. The more privileged you are in the city, the less stories you have about the city. The less attractions you get to have. Is that something that you have seen? In a way, our conclusion is that you need to help disadvantaged kids. Obviously. But there has to be some focus on kids who also end up growing in middle class sterilized environments. They are also suffering. I don't know what the right terminology is. I'm curious what you have seen around the world. I think what's interesting, and I would also like to respond to our friend from the TP municipality, I think it's interesting that when you're analyzing data, why one of our key components is data analysis, is that you take into account all the needs of your city, all the needs of your neighborhood. You're always going to have these gaps. Of course, you're going to prioritize the families that have more vulnerabilities, because usually that's the mandate of a municipality. But you also need to take into account what's happening in the rest of neighborhoods, especially if you're thinking from a public life point of view. I think that participatory process to identify some of these gaps. So what I'm trying to say is that it's also very important to have a regular analysis of administrative data that you're currently collecting. But I also think there's an important need of analyzing this different kind of data that allows you to have inputs on understanding what kind of problems you're dealing in a specific neighborhood. I think this is very common what you just described on the difference between many, at least in many of the countries that we're living, that we're working in India, again in South America, but I would say even in some of the experiences that we have in Israel, for example, you might see that this gap is basically depriving the richest kids of enjoying public space. So what are we doing from a regulation point of view to change this should be a question that from a policy-making point of view we should always be addressing. So when you're dealing with managing a city, you're dealing with managing all different kinds of problems, as this is definitely one of the challenges. How does that resonate in the North American context? Well, I find this also very striking about the rich kid crime, and it definitely reminded me of a social psychologist that, Ellen Hector, we've been very inspired by and lucky to be able to collaborate with, named Dr. Mindy Fulok, who writes very much about how both mental and physical health is something that is socially produced. And one thing I think this brings up is that if you are an urban planner or a city official, it actually is a different type of risk than maybe Tim was talking about, but it's actually a risky thing to really listen to young people because one of the things you're going to hear about is the fractures of your own society that surrounds you. And so whether that's a fracture of class or especially in the U.S. context, a fracture of race. And so there is, I think, really important discussions about how the production of whiteness and white supremacy is also a process of cutting oneself off from the environment that one needs to be socially and physically healthy. It reminds me of a project that we were working on with young people and one student for whatever reason really wanted to build a wall. And this, of course, is a charged architectural feature maybe forever, but certainly in today's United States. And there was an argument that came out and I remember one young woman yelled at the top of her lungs and I always remember this, you can't have your own private built environment. Right? No matter how tall your built wall is, no matter how many spiky wires are on top, you cannot accomplish that. And I think many of us live in denial of that fact. Okay, it's getting very passionate. But we have to end soon, so I'll take one more question from the audience. Yeet, come help us. Again to Damon and Jay and also getting back or lowering back to 95 again. I think you also interviewed or included parents of young children and babies and so on, where their demands went beyond the park because when you discuss the park you also discuss access to park, safety around the park. In our case we heard about safety issues more around the park than inside the park so I wonder your experience on that whether they went beyond the park limits about their demands of the neighborhood and so on. I think in my own practice our work definitely involved talking and working with young people. It has been less about sort of documenting what young people demand but just us as designers documenting the process of their learning. So I think that's what our presentation was trying to focus on. With hopes that that shares some practical information in our design industry because as designers we have this aspirational goals. As a brown women innovation immigrant descent I imagine what this democratic anti-racist space looked like as Damon was mentioning the only way for me to find out is to talk to brown kids who are very young as well as talk to brown grandmas who are very old and sort of understand their issues and mobility, play all the good technical aspects that I need to learn and interpret as a designer. So yeah, I think that it really depends on what their quote unquote demands are but we are diligently always documenting what they want in a specific spatial setting but also as a studio practice we've been spending much more time on like how do communities learn to own their own and sort of change the course of building their own environment. And in terms of safety no doubt, right it would usually be like a real waste of time unless we began the conversation saying we know everyone wants the park to be safer we know everyone wants the park to be cleaner let's talk about some other things right now and so for example, funny enough in the project that we showed the client had received and raised enough money just to commission us to design the park but I think not telling their foundation sponsors what they told us was that if we wanted the job we also had to produce a plan for housing in the neighborhood and the retail and the public space of the neighborhood and so we were maybe dumb enough to take this on and certainly it was something where there were some people who became involved in the process who wanted to talk about nothing else than building a fence around the park maybe electrical if possible and so I think that our best response there is not necessarily to say well as designers we don't think you should have a fence you don't have a fence now for 100 years but in fact actually find the other voices within these organizations to say well actually I don't really think that's a good idea and to try to use our tools as designers making drawings, making alternatives of what it could be to facilitate that kind of internal deliberation alright thank you so much another coffee break five yeah looking forward