This is the OGM weekly check-in call for Thursday, May 12th, 2022. It is another day. Mr. Homer, nice to see you. Good morning. Good morning. Good to see you too. The last couple of years have been really traumatic for lots of folk in ways that I think are not being acknowledged that much right now as we busy try to get reentry and try to renormalize and try to whatever and that just keeps popping up in my head.  And it's made difficult because I think we expect them might get worse. Yes. And there's a there's a sense of impending doom kind of that that pervades many of our calls. But that is not unrealistic so. I think that there's an interesting news cycle which really does ongoing limbic hijack. So like every week, there's something that you're supposed to be outraged about and the press really brings that to the top and it seems like they're generally, like sometimes it's important but generally their topics that probably could be fairly easy to compromise on but they're brought to the fore and made very highly divisive, even when they aren't very divisive which is. So I think that also puts on this in this the sense of doom in the sense of trauma, like just keeping the trauma alive. And just as a small kind of light pointer on that the CNN's Chiron that's always breaking like always breaking like this just broke this just broke it's really important. It's like, no, seriously. And then we now take 24 hours for granted it used to not be that way. And then before TV it used to be, you know, the newspaper came out and there were there were morning days and evening dailies, and they had different news because they managed to put, you know, a couple of bits of lead in line together at the right time and get it out the door. And, and in his early career Ronald Reagan was a radio announcer for baseball games reading a ticker tape of the baseball games. Like like and pretending like he was watching the game. That's pretty good that's sort of what he did for the economy. Sorry grace go ahead. There was a very funny sketch and Israeli sketch about like it was in the 90s about like people who are addicted to the news it was like this rehab center and you know like they found this little scrapper newspaper and they're all you know like. So it was considered an addiction quite a long time ago by Israeli. And that's the way it is, except on his last broadcast after he said that's the way it is the mic went off he said, except it's not that's not the way it is. And it never has been the way it is news reports on the froth on the top of the water and not the deep currents going on. I think I think that we're, we're suffering two pandemics, hydrama and stupidity. Well, I've said for a long time we've been in an epidemic of not listening. Like we're just not listening to each other and we're becoming more inured to each other's sort of pain and woes and there's too much to deal with and so on and so forth and so we're not accustomed to actually hearing. I'm sorry, could you repeat that I wasn't listening. Yeah, what exactly what. Hey what. So let's go back to the period of our weekly check and call let's go, Kevin, Ken, Doug. Well hey, thank you. I'm sort of reemerging we had a conference, it was labs. We set it up as small labs of a dozen, because we're afraid of COVID and we could thought that a bubble of a dozen could be safe if we couldn't meet together. And it's smaller and you know, it has about 120 people. And what we discovered is that with a bunch of these things, the things we're working on, which are platforms to create market power for those who don't typically have it around real estate or entrepreneurship and business ownership or actually a new crazy one around municipal bonds. And it's really complex, and they need a simplified story, and they, you can get a safe return doing this or you can cut the costs of the light bills at the BIPOC school of, you know, the HPC use, etc. We might be coming the simplifying front folks for two or three categories and I've done that before in internet marketplace is where it may go briefly into neighborhood investment trust that's neighbors investing in neighbors to stop black wall streets from being placed by predatory hedge funds. And we had about six different ones from Kansas City and Charlotte, I mean, Chicago and new and Baltimore and Seattle and Crenshaw LA and Atlanta and they're all doing it slightly differently, which is really encouraging because there's a lot of ways to do it. And so, you know, it was a lot like Havana tabs in the middle of the highway sharing parts and figuring out what part you've built that makes this worth we can use and stuff.  And so here it's Lily money. That's so they're now wanting to move that money towards what their mission is as opposed to seeing it as frozen. So the neighborhood investment trust kind of came into the endowments track people trying to understand how to move their money to look, we've got a plan why don't you give us the money. And then to the endowments actually do have some money to move so they're starting to move things that they have relational power so it's a real strange, you know, unlikely allies being discovered and so we might be out in front of some things. There's no need for a lab, it's pretty simple, but within three things that can make a big difference that there's need for us to maybe be the, you know, the, the one out front of the parade. So that's something we're exploring. It's kind of cool. Did you find that the group size, I think you said you it was a smaller group size than usual because COVID because whatever did you find that the smaller group size helped a bunch in the comments. Oh yeah, we could not have done this event at 300. So we have to decide if we want real intense groups, you know that meet six times ahead of time and that I do lots of curation with every single one of them and you know it's, it's, it's intensive but it really works and then they came out with like and we want to take over the world doing this, you know.   Why are you selling our bonds at 85 cents on the dollar and why is our interest rate twice of what a white, you know, Georgetown pays half as much for its capital as as Howard and Howard's never defaulted on its bonds and 100 years but nobody knew it was there.  So that was kind of cool. Yeah, thank you. There's a lot of ways in which just simply comparing notes on things like, you know, interest rates and penalties and whatever else can can lead to some big solutions. There's one condo that has a water tower on it, it's one of the last remaining water towers in this Pearl District which is the icon for the Pearl District is the water tower they're pretty much all going to go away and ours probably needs to be torn down because it's a has become a healthy, a health risk safety hazard, but also rebuilding it's really expensive, but there's microwave towers microwave repeaters there's cell basically gear on the tower. And I have not been able to make my way down to the bottom of this but somebody has an easement that the money for the microwave towers is not coming to the HOA it's coming to somebody who got a deal somewhere. And I can't discover like what it is somebody like hijacked a revenue flow that should be like helping the building and it's not. And I imagine things like this are just everywhere like tucked away in the corners, all over the place in particular in places where they don't have a lot of knowledge or expertise and there was an asset to be had to be taken.  Thanks Kevin. Let's go Ken Doug Pete. Hello everybody. See your faces. I've done anything particularly OGM me in the last couple weeks. I've just been working. I've got a bunch of coaching clients that I'm working with. I'm keeping up with reading on everything I finished sand talk. There is one thing that that's kind of on my mind in sand talk. Tyson talks about five different kinds of mind kinship mind, which is recognizing that nothing exists outside of a relationship to something else. He says an observer does not try to be objective but is integrated with a sentient system that is observing itself that was a really profound sentence for me to read. Story mind about finding narratives and memories and knowledge transmission it's really powerful for memorizing and connecting meaningful to place dreaming mind which is about using metaphors to work with knowledge. Another mind which is the one that's really on my mind which is about deep engagement kind of the timeless state of mind or alpha wave state, optimal learning. We can reach it through Aboriginal cultural activities is characterized by complete concentration engagement losing track linear time and pattern mind seeing patterns and trends so the ancestor mind has my attention right now because I think that we're not going to be able to work our way through a lot of the messes were in without ancestor mind that we have to step into a different kind of a marginal space. The ways in which we tend to work on things tend to be reductionistic and engineering based, and I think we have to collectively step into step outside of our minds into ancestor mind. There's something some kind of sphere around the earth from which all of our knowledge derives you know music is in their math is in there people have certain certain people can come along and they, they pull stuff down. Mozart was famous for saying, you know he'd wake up with all this music and the challenge was not to step on it, you know to get it down before he woke up before he started walking around. And so I think there there's this is a significant portion of the solutions that we are looking for exist outside of our ways of thinking about them and my, my quest right now is how do we arrange ourselves in groups to tap into that because it's so needed. So that's that's my oh gma thought for the day. Thank you. Could you repeat the five. And Pete just got them as well if you want to just double check Pete's list that'd be great. Do you have a picture of him again. I have this I copied them out of the book so I have five paragraphs I'm happy to put in the chat. I think Pete just put them in there or something yeah I'll put them in the chat one paragraph at a time because let me paste everything in and then you can see the whole thing that, and this is just he has a chapter on each one but this is just the highlights of them. So I'm going to go back to the comments and talk highly enough I really really got a lot from that book. Thank you, I have to go back into it and there's just that like a queue right. And, and book club and other so book circle and other things like it are really nice way for us to predigest some of these things and then realize where we need to go, sort of mellow marinate in, in different parts of it. Let's go Doug Pete grace. The, all the little contracts that Jerry mentioned that are hidden from us that are all over the place and the problem for society is the people that own those contracts want to keep them going. So it's a glue that keeps society from changing. And we've woven this inner, incredible interweaving of relationships that keep us from being able to move to a new place. The new place it's on my mind right now is, as our ship is thinking, it might be smart to spend our money not trying to repair the ship, but I'm building lifeboats. Some kind of monastic taking areas and trying to make them into little places in ways that could be copied by other people. So it seems like a place that we've just got to go to and as things fall apart, people will try and put it together in some kind of workable situations. So that's what I'm thinking. Thanks Doug. This is maybe a little bit of attention but it. There's a really interesting book by john still go a Harvard historian titled lifeboat. Nobody really done a history of lifeboats so here we go. And it turns out that a life by whoever ends up in a lifeboat when there's an emergency that's like a small world all of its own there's a bunch of stuff about gear and methods. And it turns out the lifeboat design and David designed to get the lifeboat off the ship that's sinking was terrible for a very long time. But then there's this thing that when the age of sale ends and steam travel begins. The nature of who's on the lifeboat changes dramatically because before that era, pretty much everybody on the lifeboat probably knows the prevailing winds currents what to do. If you see an island go by, whether to try to go, whether to try to get to it or not, all that kind of stuff signals of land nearby all seamanship is basically pervasive. So when you get steam ships and you can drive your boat around like a taxi like a bus on the waters that the level of seamanship just really dramatically declines and your survivability declines. Because you don't no longer have on board ship the people needed to do it. And so analogously, if we want to build lifeboats for the coming crises and all that what are the kinds of skills you want to have on board how do we want to have them on board. So when it's not a lifeboat in the ocean, although we may be living on the waters more than. Yeah, it's a real problem that nobody on the lifeboat is willing to kill a chicken, or knows how to clean a chicken probably or whatever, or wants to pluck it, or wants to pluck it. What the pluck the other, the other thing that occurs to me that we might want to build is libraries that aren't just digital, right that some of this knowledge wouldn't just disappear with us. We're actually doing the exact opposite digitizing everything so that it will not survive all kinds of disasters and so that feels to me also really important. Totally agree. Anybody else with thoughts on it. Let's go and grace I'll put you in line whenever you wind up sitting so but right now I've got Pete Grace class. Hi all. I've been having a, been a busy time fun, fun mostly time, working on the Donna everything book club. Kind of an idea called harvesting composting we've talked before about harvesting and composting me and some of the other folks have been talking about that a little bit more. I'm thinking, I'd like to set up a little guild of practitioners of harvesting and composting meetings like this. Kind of related to that Wendy Alfred and I have a big project. It's mostly Wendy's work, helping her with the web stuff but she's have the pleasure and the privilege and the, and the hard work of kind of digesting for the yarns they're called yarning is a Australian Aboriginal practice of talking in kind of a circle group thing. And Tyson young reporter and Dave Snowden, and a few other people participated in this series of yarns and Wendy's got the, again the privilege and pleasure of sorting through the transcripts carefully line by line, sentence by looking out the gold bits and kind of assembling those into a database of stuff that we're going to be putting on websites. So it's fun watching her get to do that, even though she mostly I hear her, you know, after a long while, you know, and now I'm on an hour to finally, you know, I'm better project lines Berg seems to be going while it's picking up steam and and momentum. We've been, we, I don't know if we is the right pronoun there. They have been, you know, making silly beginner mistakes, and also a good deal of progress, and it feels really energetic and active and interesting. So if, if you're a man or most you might check out Lionsburg town square, the channel is called, and then there's meetings Wednesdays at 1230 Pacific. Yesterday, yesterday, my wife Joanne was in a bit of a funk, because she's like, I don't hear men being upset about the abortion rights issue and the Supreme Court draft decision. She replied it to Grace about her comment in an email in the email list separately kind of but she she made a good point. I don't hear men being up in arms about this I don't hear men storming the, you know, storming the castle and going okay this this cannot stand.  I was wanting to get to a meeting or something like that and I said yeah, I ended up doing yeah but I didn't mean it to be yeah but it's like, yeah but there's climate change and there's soil health and there's, you know, water and everything's asked, you know.  She and I hadn't really talked about it but I was, you know, just like, like, I can't believe where we live and why this is happening and, and we're taking, you know, we're, we're trashing where we're taking bodily autonomy away from people, you know, many people. So anyway, I'm upset, I don't say much about it. I guess I'm upset about a number of things that I don't say much about. I've learned not to say much about it because it doesn't feel like we can make much difference, which is kind of maybe the wrong, wrong way to do it I my rationalization is that I'm kind of working on a better life for my great grandkids or something like that. You know, just folks of that era, you know, so I work on meta stuff and making the world a better place and making it so structural power and balances aren't aren't working against this and things like that. But the fruits of those labors won't pay off in my lifetime or my wife's lifetime so. So I guess I want to be a little bit more heard about the things I'm upset about now to. Thanks. Thanks, Pete. I love that question and was wondering something similar. I mean, after George Floyd, there were black lives matters protests in the streets for a very long time, and I live in Portland that there were protests in the streets and we're trying to burn down the federal courthouse downtown and a bunch of other sorts of things as a result and well, you know, well through the pandemic. And this has not provoked the same kind of reaction. And it's life threatening also in a huge and pervasive way. Does anybody else want to want to pitch in on this. Yeah, I think with regard to most men, I'm not gonna say all men but most men throughout history pregnancy has been women a woman's problem, you know, like oh you're pregnant oh too bad.   Access to their own bodies they don't have control over over their ability to decide what's going to happen.    And I'm stunned that more men are not picking this up and realizing.  And I don't know whether it's alarmism or a sober description of what's happening but the knock on effects. Let's say row is is disabled and then trigger laws trigger etc etc but then contraception could be illegal lies and a whole series of like a whole series of other things things seem to be on the table as that risk, which are thorough going and pervasive which the majority of the American population disagrees with pretty strongly. So this kind of minority rule and, and a whole bunch of other things that seem to be in place here to create a Christian state of some sort. So grace then Pete. So, I guess. I mean, I see the rovers is waiting and all is sort of symptomatic of everything that's happening in the United States right this just complete collapse and radicalization of things that should. You should find a compromise about it right I come from Israel and I mean I lived 27 years in Israel and we have a law against abortion. And that's because the religious laws say that, and you need to get a medical excuse for it. And everyone I know who's ever gotten pregnant and wanted to get a medical excuse from their doctor gets a medical excuse for a doctor. And it's a non issue. It just never shows up in the news. And you could say oh it's not democratic and women's bodies and whatever, but it's a non issue because we found a way to just, you know, like let's put that on that is not the central issue to our country. And if we find a compromise we can all turn a blind eye to the fact that anybody who wants abortion can get an abortion no matter where they come from, and you can just go to a doctor in the next city over and it's no problem. And so it's, it, I think there's this radicalization underneath all of this you know and I mentioned the, you know, like the leaking of documents. And again that goes with what I said at the beginning like every week they make sure there's something for us to talk about. So I'm wondering how much, you know, like there's leaking of documents by some force that's trying to or you know whatever trying to like I don't believe in conspiracy theory but there are certainly enough people who, you know, throwing a wrench in the spokes every now and again or every week is a good idea for them, or whether you know this this problem of kind of deliberation or whatever but again I go I think I think it just all goes back to what Doug said is like we really need to be building life boats and not trying to fix this mess and I've been working thinking a lot about that on like how do we create not just life boats but also the, the, the, you know, the connectivity between life boats and sort of that'll be more in my check in but I just feel like we get so focused on these symptoms and to Pete's point it's like every bit of energy that I spend worrying about this and I do have a woman's body and I have had an abortion like many many people when I was you know 17 and you know it's it's an issue right like it's it's viscerally important to me but every minute that I spend on that I'm not spending on dealing with the infrastructure which is unless we fix that none of this is going to get better it'll just be the next thing next week. Thanks Grace Pete. Thanks Grace, and I think radicalization joint also has a, she, she, you know, like the sentence or two after being teary about order to worries. The doctors in laws are in Texas, so she's going to go visit people in Texas, so she can end up in the situation where she's pregnant doesn't know it has a miscarriage ends up to the doctor's office, and, you know, ends up in in court, deciding whether or not she's committed a crime right. So it is tough of mind with my wife and she gets really upset about this do I.  The mother Jones series of articles I put in the chat is, it's like, oh my God, you know. radicalization is a big part of the problem.  I wanted to say also that. That abortion isn't just a like isn't isn't necessary or abortion the things that are called abortion include ectopic pregnancies and a miscarriage where you need a DNC and stuff like that. 10 or 20% of pregnant all pregnancies end up in a miscarriage. Some miscarriages you need a DNC a DNC gets coded medically as an abortion. And, you know, so you can go to jail and women around the world and be going to jail for 1020 30 years for homicide because they had a miscarriage that wasn't their fault right. So, the, the, and the way that the trigger allows and things like that look like they're set up a lot of them, it's legislators deciding kind of, you know, de novo out of their mind, just like deciding that pie. The numerical value of pi is going to be three and a quarter because that's easier for everybody. It's like they're doing the same thing except for for bodily health right right now it's women. But, you know, it's going to, I mean, so they're, they're making, they're making expansive laws to include lots of situations including ones that have nothing to do with their stated purpose.  Thanks Pete. I heard one of the many interesting articles that came out after Alito's leak. Basically said hey, we should find who the father is and basically garnish their wages for life to provide living environment for said child. And there's no penalty here for the men. Right.  I don't know if I know some of your women and and I some of my best friends are women, women are people too I don't know if we born from one and say that. Yeah. Yeah. Thanks Pete. Plus. Yeah, I watched the Senate debate. Sorry, yesterday for 45 seconds and that's through my hands in the air to my brother bunch of idiots, you know, because when you look at the statistical, the feedback that you get from the general population you see that two thirds of Americans 70% of Americans want to have a ho versus a war versus weight kind of the law on the books. The last majority right but within that, let's say 70% are probably 40% that who don't want unrestricted access to abortion. So here's the Democrats, you know, coming in with this.  There's a list of reasons of undesirable types of abortions, and thereby completely wiped out gave the Republicans who voted against or here, an excuse to say but I can't vote for that the majority of Americans that and they're right now. So this is a political fight, and you have to structure it in a way that you're swinging with where people really are in this place so rather than putting this bill up with an opening and say, you know, there has to be a period of time like in Germany, for example, it's 12 weeks, it's three months, and after that you need a medical certification to say that there are medical reasons to terminate this pregnancy. In most countries, most of every European country, there are limitations on this abortion, it's just like in Israel, you know, you have limitations on abortions, but there are ways around it and by not anticipating, you know, how the Republicans would move against this vote and how they would position themselves. Now we are basically voided this phenomenal opportunity to put Republicans on the spot to vote, you know, against or for it. So I mean these are the, I mean the inability of the of the Democrats and liberals to fight in on the same terms as the Republicans do who are masters at this game. It's just so painful to watch because it's just this is just one topic of many where they're completely don't pay attention this is like no pattern might right you have to step back and see what are the patterns here. We insert ourselves into this web, you know, in ways that we can swing it into a direction that we wanted to go. So that was just I mean it's just, and I'm glad this thing pork, and I wouldn't be surprised if several of these Supreme Court judges are saying that this thing is out, because it helps them to either legitimize not this this opinion that I need to come out with, or to modify it in ways that avoids the any kind of fracture, and Schumer just gave them a perfect opening to to to publish this opinion as it is written and move on with it so that's that's to me the the most frustrating part here. Thanks, cause I didn't study the dynamics of the vote that was held so I don't. I don't know that I follow necessarily logic that this locks in what happened or whatever. I think they were trying to pin down Republicans as all clearly voting against, you know, the law etc. There's a bunch of things I don't fully understand about the process there. Stuart than Doug. Yeah, I'm with Doug.  These conversations, even the conversation that we're having today is just, it's making me a little crazy. It's so fixated in some ways on on on fixing the, the so many different problems that that and it's just impossible to I'm feeling impossible to see a way through, except for, you know, in some small ways doing what you can in the small environment where you live. I don't know if anybody here follows the great mystic Richard roar, but he had a beautiful column this morning I'll get it and put, put the link to it in the chat. Just about love and how that is so missing in the world. And when somebody mentioned Alito trying to punish men, trying to punish men. There's such crazy Old Testament stuff. And if you think about where it is in terms of, you know, the world we're living in today. We as human beings have created all of these crazy problems with the systems that we that we have created and the thinking that we've created. And the demographic of Congress, when no wonder they came out like this right. There's a bunch of old white gray haired men that are making these decisions, and, and they're not acting from places of wisdom they're acting from places of partisanship. Thanks to it. Sometimes the way to solve a problem is to see that it's part of a larger problem. And I'm thinking about abortion as being on the borderline between nature and technology. We need to learn to navigate that border in a much better way. My view is, I think the stats are right that about 80% of abortions, terminate pregnancies that were entered into moments of lost in love. And that that's really important to see that that the shift from that moment to the abortion moment is a very difficult path and maybe we can just do better. There's something just deep about the abortion problem that goes to what's nature. What's society. What's the proper use of technology. What's responsibility. What is the role of culture. And thought. Thanks Doug, I'll add in here that. Let me just screen share for a second. There was also a really interesting thread after the Alito. That US abortion laws trace back to racism that the story goes back to Bob Jones University versus the United States in 1983, but the IRS revoked their tax exemption because of racism. And that event flipped a lot of evangelicals into politics before then they couldn't be convinced to get into politics they were like man and now that's politics. And since then, clearly they've become really political so here's a, here's a tweet stream that somebody wrote that starts how did it, how did abortion become the most divisive and politic politic social issues in modern American history. It all dates back to a series of Supreme Court cases that in fact had nothing to do with abortion at all any points to run university McCrary Bob Jones Brown be a board of ed. And I think that's it. I think there's a. Can I just enter a quick comment here, not as abortion has a deep history. Well, I think all native cultures have wise of doing abortions and do. Right. And so there's an interesting question here about a lunatic illusionism or magicians where, you know, the idea is to make you look over here at the at the hand that's moving. While something else is going on elsewhere. And there's a piece of this that's, that's horrible and this piece of this that's a distract a strategic distraction I think at the level that we were talking about just moments ago. And we're not anywhere in a situation as a public as a citizenry to be holding those conversations in any depth or meaning. And we need to be like though these are really important conversations to not let escalate and explode. And it feels to me like there's a bunch of actors in the arena, who are busy like pouring kerosene on the issues and using as hard as they can to make sure that this thing is incendiary because that wins elections and elections are power and power lets you go do more stuff. Maybe a bit of a cynical view but but I think it's important where we where we put our attention and I'm really interested in how we diffuse the situation so that we can come to more rational solutions for the issues at hand together. Let's go back to our queue, which at this point is Grace Claus steward such elegant diffusion of the subject. Such elegant what diffusion you said how do we diffuse it like oh all right here we go change the topic that works. Well, nobody stood up to jump back into that thread and we'll be back to it I'm sure so I figured let's go back to our check ins. So, I, over the last few weeks, I've been traveling, working on my og me thing. I got coven, I had to end up canceling the event. I wasn't very sick, it was just, you know, the politically correct thing to do is to quarantine. So that I didn't quite pull off that first weekend game, but I still have a lot of people enthusiastic about it and so I'm looking at reformulating it. And then I started talking to some people who I want to co found stuff with, as I mentioned, and that was my next step and I'm sort of finding myself drawn into something bigger and it was interesting because I was listening to the Williamsburg call on YouTube to try and figure out what in the world minds burger, whatever the meta project is. And it seems there's a lot of that like there's a lot of feeling that we're being pulled together into something bigger, which is for me looks like a bunch of small experimental projects which is what mine is but with a group of people doing similar experiments and sort of a collaboration on new economics experiments and I'm saying people but really, I'm looking mostly at women leaders who are rethinking economy and very different terms, which I think has a lot to do with even the previous topic in some ways it's like when, when pregnancy and raising children are intrinsically a part of your life. So fixing the economy with more work doesn't look like a great solution at all stages of life so. So it's a really interesting group of people and we're starting to kind of co less around what are the, what are the, what's the framework for what we're working on. At the same time as I was listening to the medical. name is like a little bit pretentious the pretentious projects as I was listening to the pretentious project call. And as I was looking at I actually was, I actually got a note from the emerge I'm going to be going to the merge conference in Austin this year, and they had published online the names of all 200 of the participants and I was just. It seems like this movement is incredibly naive about privacy and security. And this week as crypto is doing really really badly. You know whether you, you know whether that's affecting your personal or not or whether you have a lot, you know like the way that crypto and defy looks or not. It represents an alternative movement it represents a bit of a resistance to the existing financial system in many ways, and to see it be so vulnerable to you know whatever it's being vulnerable down right like it's just a mess. And there's so much more organized and so much more privacy and security oriented and they're you know they're cyber cyber punks and you know they still are in this really vulnerable situation, and it frightens me that we're working on all of these digital projects with no thought at all about security privacy identity and our vulnerability as a movement. And as we converge into something bigger and as we find each other and we overlap with these groups. It seems to me more and more important I mean we're doing the opposite of what, you know, al Qaeda terrorist groups or you know resistance groups really want to do which is keep things secret. Keep people safe. And I worry deeply about that I, I think it's nice to say we're going to deal with that later and so that's something I'm thinking is I'm not an expert in that except on a superficial level I've worked for a lot of security companies. I understand cyber security from a vulnerability standpoint not from a, you know like how do you write the tech, you know we're looking at all this I mean I was in Spain and the whole thing with the Pegasus spying stuff was in the news all the time. I just think. I think we're really missing that part in this movement and that we need to start thinking about it at this point not later and you know discord group since like discord is fully sensible and. Yeah, it's something I really think that as a movement we need to start thinking about more is, how can we protect ourselves and I really, I'm really the last one who wants to spend any time thinking about it because again it seems like any moment that we spend thinking about protecting ourselves is a moment we're spending not building that lifeboat.  Not much of a lifeboat. Chris, thank you. This, I don't know if this is an accurate analogy, but it feels a little bit like some of the people who are inside crypto using crypto and all that are relying on the anonymity of crypto the way that soldiers in some countries rely on having been blessed and blood, which makes them immune from bullets and death. And it turns out that's not so true.  And that turns out not to be working so well.    I mean you can listen to Peter feels speech which I was like Peter man you got to watch it. A lot of these panels were like it's us versus them look what they did to Russia look what they did to the truckers in in Canada and it's like, we don't have any sense of, you know, of what should be secret and what shouldn't actually, and where you should keep your mouth shut. As the January 6 investigation is discovering. Pete. Thanks grace. In a meeting of the new map weaver's group, which has some relationship kind of the flotilla and some relationship to metaproject. I brought up Grace's concern is one of the things that we should be watching about and I started talking and it made me realize that as somebody who used to do stuff before the internet came online and then was part of getting the internet online for people. I've literally been thinking about security and privacy and, and, and the common sense around that since, you know, for 30 years. And so I was saying that I don't know if all y'all, you know, kids on the internet. No, but and to be fair, a lot of the kids are actually pretty savvy about privacy and security and things like that. But it's, it's not obvious that you, you know, that when your participation online is has has a lot of it leaks into a lot of places, technically, you know. And so I used to tell people because before the internet people had no, you know, people were used to postal mail and newspapers and, and being fairly secure in your privacy. I used to tell people getting on the internet. Hey, don't say anything on the internet that you don't want to exist forever, because it's going to exist forever. Don't say anything on the internet that just because you're not in front of a police station doesn't mean that, you know, what you're doing is not going to end up in a police station or at the FBI office or the CIA.  And it used to be that people really didn't know the technology and you know they were getting into this new space. Hey, my mom's not here. The FBI isn't here. I can say what I want. And I used to tell people don't think that because that's not the way it works. But I, you know, so one of Grace's points was we're making to just to make it make it easier to work together you want to make a list of a directory of, you know, who you're, who might, who you might work with. And that's making it easier, but it's also making a targeted list of, you know, if the FBI or the CIA or actually I just was reading today about people who pretend, you know, people who've broken into law enforcement databases, bad guys pretend to be good guys, and then they end up with a bunch of stuff that, you know, there's a bunch of leaky ways that information gets out that people don't really know and Grace has got a really good point when you start to concentrate stuff together and assume that everything is good. It's, you know, you miss, you miss a lot of potential harm that can happen if the regime changes or laws change or if bad actors pretend to be the good guys or whatever right there's a lot of, a lot of it happens a lot. So, I don't know exactly what to do with that and I guess part of my point yesterday when I was telling this to the map weavers is like, I've, I've actually lived with that thought, you know, it's, it's possible since my emails out in public and since I make myself public and I put a lot of my work into the public. It's possible that that will attract attention that will end up causing somebody to dox me or somebody to swap me or something like that. And it's not something I want but it's also something that I've thought about and I lived my life in a way that, you know, I, I, there's a, there's a potential threat that I know about that I worry about that I kind of cushion myself about, and not everybody has that in their life. I think we're kind of in the opposite situation now where a generation of people have been raised that they know that everything that they say is going to be saved forever and so there's a numbness about it and like helplessness about it and I feel that helplessness. And I think there's tremendous value in creating a sovereign to use phrase that they're really here to protect us like I would like somebody like in one of these groups, a little team that's the IT and security team that says to me, Hey, here's the best phone you should be using Hey, move everything to Keybase.  And it's just kind of the, you know, not the visible fun work but I think there's a real call for that and that as a group we can definitely find the resources for that. Thanks, I like that idea too and it also kind of It's a, it's a challenge. It's a challenge to say safe it's a challenge to educate people that that they need to say safe. I also it reminds Grace talking reminds me that earlier she said we we have a lot of digital archives a lot of stuff online that you know we've now we're now we don't have offline copies of that.  That's true also of social that the social network that you have. So, if the internet were to go down tomorrow which is a possibility. I would not be able to contact most of you and vice versa. So, another thing to think about including backup plans in such case. You know, I'm probably as exposed as anyone when it comes to what I'm working on and how many coops I'm working with and on an international level. But I believe in radical transparency. I think it's completely useless to try to stay hidden or prevent your information from leaking out unless you want to close something up and that's, that's a different thing. The most difficult thing really is to illuminate and make transparent issues that need some kind of resolution and my, my, my thought is that this pattern mind is actually, you know, a good, a good reminder of looking at the system as a system and understanding it as a system and the interrelationships within this system because I'm working right now on the farm. There's a number of quotes, you know, one, one quote that I'm trying to mobilize here's the circle. And it's, it's not easy because you have one quote that focus on weekends, one quote is the anti cable quote and the anti grazing quote and so you have a couple dozen quotes who are working on my new show of the system, you know, where they see what I mean, I mean, passionately engaged, you know, really hard to move into a different direction. So, when you, when you say, look, here's a cable concentrated animal feeding operation if you want to reduce that, then one way to do it would be to stop subsidizing corn and soil which acts as feet for for these, or for these things. To take away the subsidies they're getting and that makes that need more expensive. But then you also need to have an alternative supply right. Well that means you have to build a decentralized meat processing capacity because it's not there it has been systematically dismantled. But when you do all of these things then you now need to worry about the farmers who are losing their markets that the story and corn farmers. And then you need to find a program for those guys to maybe convert their land back into grasslands and raise cattle on grasslands. So just to help understand the systemic implications of making a change in a complex adaptive system. And you could apply that to the abortion case. I mean, when you look at where the population is where the statistics are, it's, it's, it's all readily available numbers. Now then you can insert solutions that that that hit the above 50% range of people that you need to convince. I don't, I don't know that we need.  But other than that, the beauty of the American system is that we can just spout off and talk about stuff. I mean, I would have been long arrested in China by now, right, or in Russia. But here we can, we can say these things and that is the power of the system, right, that that you you are able to express your thoughts and your ideas. And if you get enough people to pick up on it and, and, and see the logic of your argument if there is one, then you can move stuff, and, and, and build this future that everyone is interested in. So for me, security is like, yeah, I mean, I don't even want to think about it. It's a complete distraction. Thanks class. And I don't want to disagree. I believe in radical transparency and democracy. Yeah.  And just runs down that list and you know it looks like this group here is a good list to make hell with right. The other thing is, as tensions rise with this radicalization in the US. And it's, it's really easy to be, you know, a semi public figure like some of us are and for somebody on the opposite side to go well, today is the day I'm going to docks and SWAT Pete today is the day I'm going to docks and SWAT class today is the day I'm going to docks and SWAT Jerry.  And not that I think that's going to happen, but it's also not outside of the realm of possibility right and then going through your emails and stuff like that, and you know having them decide what your emails mean to them or about abortion or about which is now you know illegal. It's, it's, you know, I like to live my life that way too that I kind of contrast the system, but the system is a fickle beast, and it's getting fickler. And we could all be in deep shit, pretty easily for the things that we do here. Unfortunately, I'm Stuart than Chris. Yeah, I don't know where we are if we're checking in or discussing security and privacy or what have you. We're following a windy trail. It's a little like those like it's a sequence of oxbow lakes tucked under by subway passages. Yeah. So, a few comments.  And as, as, as grace was talking about, you know, having some omnipotent force, making decisions I thought about, well, maybe the Christian Christian writers correct that we need to be following one God who dictates everything. And then everything will be simple and easy and all of these decisions we're talking about won't matter at all. If only everybody would fall in line. Sure. Right, exactly. Which in some ways is is is congruent with some of the writing that I've been doing in terms of, you know, how can we fix all of the, all of these pieces that that we all step on, you know, once in a while. I wanted to comment on on on on Wendy's thought about not understanding the point about abortion being at the border of nature and technology seems like it's at the borders of patriarchy politics and religion. I think it's not either or, you know, I think it's a little bit of both. I remember doing some exploration. This was in the pardon me late 1980s. Some of the decisions being made about science when you think about I mean the genetic engineering is is one thing that comes to mind. All of the stuff around, you know, farming also comes to mind. And these are quote, God like decisions. And I'm not sure what the status and state of all of those things are, but, you know, given the politics around these things. I don't know that they're, they're being aired effectively I chose not to write about it and dig into it. And I think it's really coming at it from a legal perspective, at the time, and it was kind of mind blowing about the kinds of decisions that we would have to be make, making as a, as a species. Thanks to grace then Mike and then Stuart you're next in the queue so we'll go back to you shortly.  I happen to have done that 30 years but I actually did it again, five years ago because I'm just a scared person. So that also connects me to what Pete said he said, I don't think any of this stuff will happen. But it did happen. I mean, from the Canadian truckers banks accounts to the coffee shops that even gave them food and bank accounts being shut down and people were on a list of the resistance, just, you know, a few miles north of your folks. For those of you who aren't in Canada on this call. Right, I mean, it happens from people being thrown off of Twitter and Facebook for showing what's used it's happening constantly so I don't really understand the caveat of, I don't think anybody would do that it's happening it's happening now. It's just right in front of our faces, and I think we just need to say that that's what's happening people are going down lists, and some of them are the media and some of them are the big social media platforms and some of them are the bankers and some of them are politicians. You just, you know, pretty serious. Thanks, Grace. Mike. Thanks, I apologize for being an hour late. They have a conflict every other day. Yeah, you have a standing call so thanks for being here. Ironically we finished the last call talking about how five years ago. There was this mantra. Well, it couldn't happen here, you know, couldn't happen here and, as you say, it's all too possible. But I wanted to challenge the group, put things in a more optimistic direction. I'm helping organize the Internet Governance Forum USA. The global IGF is going to happen in Ethiopia in November it's under the auspices of the UN. Our little group attracts about 500 people and another 500 online. And we look at sort of the US take on what's going on in the global Internet, and a lot of the right people debating the decisions will shape what's next whether it's the metaverse or Starlink or big data and machine really exciting conference. But we've decided to look at what gets in the way of embracing emerging technologies. And what can be done to kind of open the door to as many new opportunities, new technologies, new business models, new services. So what I'm looking for is people who can talk intelligently about visions for the digital future. In the US and outside the US. In the 90s, there were all sorts of visions. I mean, I mean I worked for Al Gore he was promoting the internet super highway and the digital library of Congress. Other people talked about the celestial jukebox and Apple spent millions of dollars making some really cool ads about doing what we're doing right now right in 1995 they had these ads showing you sitting on a park bench, having a video conference with your We don't have anything quite as simple now. And so I'm looking for people who can both have utopian visions and not so utopian visions and use those secrets to the future. Those those ways to take motivate people to push past the barriers that are getting in the way. So that's that's my challenge if anybody has good names of people particularly people in the DC area who might be able to show up in person. That would be awesome. It's a it's a challenge. We're actually doing two pieces we're doing one. I'm looking back and looking at the visions of the 90s and the early 2000s and several science, several tech journalists like Dan Gilmore and john Markoff are excited about being part of that. But I'm, I'm focused on the in person event which is going to be July 21 in Washington. And I need people like you Jerry. You did a great job last year we did a scenarios exercise looking at how the internet could break apart. Now we're looking at scenarios and visions of how these technologies could really make a difference. We're, we're a little unfocused right now so we, we are focused on how it will make a difference for individuals rather than corporations or governments, but we were not sure which technologies will be most important. We don't want to have people coming in and doing five sales pitches on five different technologies we want somebody who brings the pieces together. And it's like we did back in the 90s when we said, Okay, we got better graphics, we got better bandwidth, we got wireless, you know, and, and we've got data storage. How does it all come together. So that's the challenge to the group. You don't have to answer now. But if you have any ideas, please let me know, and the more provocative the better, and the less exposed to the better less exposed didn't serve on our list, but yeah, there's always on everybody's lists. Gotcha. Exactly. So not the usual suspects. I'd be very happy to help think about it I'd be very happy to show up if my perspective helps. Why don't we sort of talk about that. Anybody else feel free to jump in but also I wanted to point out, Ken Homer had a great idea. A couple weeks ago and I sent you an email. I'm not sure you caught it. We'd love to host a pop up call where you talk about what the Carnegie Endowment for International Peace, which seems to be in the peace business, thinks about the current situations and so forth if there's a way to generate something like that that'd be really wonderful. I could do that and probably bring a couple other my colleagues in as well. That'd be phenomenal. I apologize I was first I had COVID and then I was traveling on the West Coast and taking care of family issues. Thank you. We did a zoom wake for my uncle so it was. Oh, wow. And it appears now that the majority of the US population has been through COVID it's like 60% is where the meter is at this point so there's a minority of people who haven't, haven't suffered from it. Well, I caught it the day I got my second booster so I am now three quarters three quarters of my body is antibodies. Yeah, yeah, you're what you're one trillion cells are now mostly COVID. COVID antibodies. Yeah. So thanks, thanks Mike and really good questions like like, I had a had a really interesting call with Corey doctoral a little while ago, kind of asking him, because I really love his eye on the world. You have a new haircut in your current glasses you're looking an awful lot like Corey doctoral right this very moment. Well I'll put my other glasses on and I'll go back to looking like Bill Gates. Now there you go. No, this is a good look. But part of what I was asking Corey about was hey, who do you follow who could I follow to figure out what's going to work in the future like like who out there is assembling a working system that's good for us. We sort of hung up the call and I didn't really necessarily have answers. So I'm interested in sort of going back and lather rinse repeat on the question because I think it's really, it's a crucial question of the age. Doug, I just to answer your question in one word, Sandy Pentland. Yes, at MIT. He's got a book out you can there's a free draft version you can find. It's called building the, the new economy. And some of the chapters are better than others but his chapter is really good with Alexander Lipton and Thomas hard journal. Both of them are worth following as well. I've got an essay I'll paste in the in the chat by that title which I guess is now turned into a book. The other one is, oh no this is actually about the book. The other one is Irving Velodosky burger my former bosses boss at IBM he's sort of a grand cyber philosopher and a technologist to understand what he's talking about. Interesting. Thanks Mike, go ahead Doug. You are muted. You think I would learn background assumption to what you're discussing seems to me to be holding the profit world and the growing economy as the default scenario. Direct competition with the fact that more economic activities bad for the climate. I think those are some of the underlying assumptions that really matter and grace is busy working on what is the post money economy look like. I had a great conversation with had a ketchup call with Janelle or see recently of Selk in Oakland and she's working on the same sort of question. I think that we have to question all of our assumptions in that sense. And then we also I think have to be.  And so what do the stories look like what what are the examples what is the scene on the other on the other shore of the river. These are really, really important things and if you can paint the vital exciting scene that you'd want to be part of that is like half the deal is done and I want to scroll back. This reminds me of a thing I put in the chat earlier and then forgot about which is, Hey, if we live inside of a complex adaptive system. What sorts of things do we need to do to allow our system to adapt more complexly, but then guide itself towards some kind of safe landing for all of us, because the command and control ways of trying to turn this ship and I don't think going to work. So, so we, we need to figure out better guidelines better better incentives. I hate that word and and I don't mean monetary incentives but better ways of directing people's motivations intentions and behaviors that work. That likewise accept and understand all of the roadblocks in the way that are some of the things we mentioned briefly in passing, which are laws that were passed that are really hard to move strange deals that that basically you serve the Commons or block people from doing stuff all you know all kinds of other things and active distraction measures. So, did you want to go back to that or No, I'm done. Okay. We have a few more people but only 15 minutes left in the queue. So let's go Stuart Wendy Julian. Maybe if Mike had a reaction to what I said that would be good. Well I did work for Al Gore for nine years. So I do know a lot of the people who are thinking about the new models for the economy. I fully agree that you don't measure success by GDP growth. But I also think that the technology that we're talking about here can create a lot of new ways of running a more efficient economy. So rather than, you know, generating another million tons of plastic will find ways to do without the plastic. So I am a somewhat of a free market guy and I somewhat of a cyber libertarian. I do believe that the only way we get to a new reinvented economy that's much more carbon neutral is by spending money and we need to make huge investments and some of it might be in nuclear power some of it might be in space based energy there's all sorts of crazy ideas out there some of which aren't so crazy and could work, but they're all going to require some money. So the idea that we're going to close down and half of our economy doesn't get us to the right answer I don't think this is the river stones that I'm sort of talking about. Yeah, exactly. And I think that's the. When I was working for Gore, I mean it was there was always this tug and pull between the people who were whispering in his ear on environmental issues. Half of us were saying, Hey, these technologies they're they're going to give us new answers they're going to give us ways to radically change the way we do things. And then the other people were whispering in his ear saying well we've got to tax the hell out of the existing systems we've got to discourage economic activity.  And, you know, that that was sort of where he was stuck between and luckily more and more he's been talking about the good side and the positive side. You know that the and we are seeing some amazing things happen, solar energy being the best one. Incredible reduction the cost of making giga megawatts from from solar. Two cents per kilowatt hour. The only time I've stood in front of Al Gore to hear him speak that his first question was I don't understand why I can't convince conservatives that green is a huge business opportunity. That was his first sentence was like he was off and running with that. Yeah, Mike. I was really glad that you saved me enough to invest in nuclear power because that's been a challenge for me I've been anti nuke since I was a teenager and and I've recently come to realize that in terms of building a bridge from our current economy to a new economy, nuclear is probably going to be part of the equation. And I keep going back to McDonald's article in the Atlantic back I think in 1989 at the next industrial revolution where he says we have two metabolisms on the planet there's a biological metabolism. And there's an industrial metabolism, and the idea isn't to stop being industrial but is to close the loop so that nothing from the industrial metabolism that's toxic weeks out and contaminates the biosphere. And that to me seems like an amazingly rich and wonderful and imaginative realm of how can we do that how can we how can we instead of saying, we have to stop growth it's like, let's grow the right things, let's let's find ways to to adhere to that particular vision.  Are other people like thinking about that or is this just kind of gone to just drop low in the wind what's what's up with that. That is a model is so outside of the normal vision of strategic thinkers in Washington. I mean, it's so I mean, part of it is because we have a whole lot of people who are lawyers who always start with the precedent. And ask Stuart, what do we have, what do we have that's going to going to apply to this new future. And the assumption is that this new future is just built on the building blocks that we have today. The idea that we're going to grab some new building blocks, or the idea that we're going to somehow redefine the fundamental structure, whether it's government or the way corporations are organized that that is just it's almost always rejected is let's just too hard. That requires too many people to to to, as Jerry says it requires too many people to jump across the stream all at once before anybody's proven it's even possible. And so I know I'm being a little cynical and pessimistic but I there's very few countries that that really ask themselves. How can we change things at a fundamental level and the about the only ones that do it are the ones who are rebuilding after catastrophic war, or a great great great depression. Does that help.  Yeah, I'm Iceland. Iceland and Estonia are examples that come to mind. But again, that's, you know, that's, that's, in the case of Iceland, it's less than a third of a million people have to jump together and Estonia it's a couple million. Right. Thanks, Mike. Let's go. I did put an article in the in the book by Rothkoff I think I've sold that book before but it's a great questions for tomorrow. And it gets out a lot of these, these great questions that we're exploring right here. He doesn't have the answers but he has great questions. Thanks Mike. Doug, did you want to jump back in. Yeah, like the, the utopia and Silicon Valley is the merging of large data, big data with artificial intelligence to manage the world with a platform that's owned by the people who own the wealth now. It seems to me that the things are going to happen that are going to break up that effort, because the world is going to be increasingly messy. And we should be responding to that rather than continuing to think that the kind of economy that we've had, which is stock market and technology running together is going to be over. Well, I think that utopia is one that a small people, a small group of people share Peter Thiel and the likes, but I think there's a lot more people that look at a utopia where we're all empowered data is distributed in a lot of different places and can be combined in creative ways, as needed by a lot of people. So kind of a, you know, AI as a platform that would serve the needs of millions of different businesses, not five businesses. Yeah, but who owns it. The point is it's like the original internet from 1990, you had all these little local networks, institutional networks, a few regional networks that tied them together. And the ownership was was pretty widespread and a lot of the players were nonprofit consortia. And that that could, that could happen now we could have a distributed cloud, we don't have to have Facebook, Amazon, Microsoft IBM controlling the cloud. I forgot, I forgot to buy do. We should never forget buy do we always big tech always has about four companies in China that we always ignore. But your point is, is a good one that is a narrative that is out there and is getting lots of attention and beside I have to share this I will see if I can find the tweet, but there was a brilliant tweet that said, Why do we cover politics like a horse race. We should be covering it like the business page. And it was it was the night that the Ohio primary finished up and it said, Today, Peter teal invested $13 million to buy the Republican Party in an Ohio. And it was it was just a much better way of thinking about politics. Thanks, Mike. Let's see if we can do Stuart Wendy Michael. Yeah. So I say the same thing about the coverage of the of the war in Ukraine it's it's covering like a sporting event. I mean it's really interesting what the, what the, what the media does. Um, I just want to spend a couple of minutes sharing the incredible power, energy and intelligence of some Broadway shows that I just saw that that are amazing social commentary in some ways. It's a play called strange loop. Just want to pull a surprise for the writing. It's a story of a black playwright. A loop is a psychological term for the different loops we have running around our mind. And it was the story of him growing up in the context of a, he's gay in the context of a homophobic father at a Jesus freak mother, and how he eventually shared his story. There are six characters behind him that each represent a loop of his own thinking. And it was a musical, almost with the, the, the patrol of, of, of Hamilton. Talk about creativity just extraordinary. A little girl from the North country, which took a story in post depression. Northern Minnesota, where Bob Dylan is from, and used all of Dylan's music reinterpreted and rearranged and in a most extraordinary extraordinary two and a half hour meditation.  A play called six, the story about the six lives of Henry the eighth and six wives of Henry the eighth and extraordinary musical. He was competing for who had the worst time as Henry the eighth wives in musical fashion and the last one, a play called the minutes, which is such a wonderful commentary on, on the contemporary world we're in. Tracy let, who's an actor and a playwright, and it's a story of the minutes about the minutes that are missing from a municipal council meeting. And why are the minutes missing. Well, because they threw out one of the councilmen off the council, because he objected to the consistent and ongoing annual celebration of the town founder and hero, who was faded as a as a great military champion. And anyway, as it turned out, his great, you know, military prowess had to do with killing an Indian tribe. And so it's, it's, it's all about, you know, genocide and, and, and, and, and slavery as it's underneath. And just the extraordinary power of being in the presence of these theaters and the privilege of it. And the one other thing was also I visited in New York, the, the nine 11 museum, which is the most extraordinary creation in terms of a curated museum, and just a powerful powerful piece of art to be inside of. So that's my check in for today. All of a check in Stuart, I hadn't heard of most of these plays and they sound really fantastic. Go ahead, Mike. Just add one more play that was recommended by a colleague I have not seen it yet but it sounds fascinating it's called Golden Shield. And it's a techno politics thriller about Cisco being involved with China in building the fire great firewall of China. The Golden Shield and he's got it was just an astonishing play, as well as being pertinent to some of us. Yeah, that reminds me of the movie a little bit that's playing now, you know, everything and, and, and, and rather just very in a very similar, similar vein. Everything all at once. Yeah, thank you. I've got to see that too, which is a great metaphor for where we are as a as a culture and civilization right now. Wendy would you like to check in. Thanks. Thanks. What a fascinating conversation today everyone thank you. Yeah my check in today has taken about six different forms as the conversation has emerged. So, I'm going to try and try and synthesize it into one particular slice, which I think is in response to your proposal like and seeing technology and new ways and visioning it for the future. I feel like what I'm doing now is, is trying to create technologies that are mirror for what's not seen. So, the reason I'm pausing and talking about it is because it's hard to talk about because it's stuff that we don't see. What I'm starting to realize is super important. And I think it's been a thread through the entire conversation is the processes by which we do things. Right so somebody referred to the glue before, and having to kind of like what do we do and we have to take apart when it's the glue that's the problem. Right and so I think a lot of the things that have been built have been built on understandings beliefs systems processes that have been standing for a really long time, and those processes don't aren't serving us anymore. And I think we can define those processes in many ways it could look like the way we grow food or it could look like the way we we educate our children or it could look like the way we choose to heal people. And if we're creating technologies that are coming from those same. Those same networks the same systems and we're creating technologies in some ways that perpetuate the same systems that currently aren't working so well. So, ironically, we need to create a system that creates technology that helps support new systems like it's like the chicken and egg and I think this is why it's so hard to do, because we're we. The issues we're facing are so huge. We really need technology to help us understand them and see them. And now we also don't have the things that we need to see in order to create technology that's going to right. It's this, it's this weird kind of back and forth. So I'm taking efforts to try to understand those processes better and the ones that I'm focusing on it for me it started the project started for me you know 12 years ago, looking at trying to figure out how to make knowledge repositories more seen sense of knowledge more seen. And then that narrowed itself in the last year and a half to okay let's help communities, help themselves be more seen what what are the communities that are doing things right what are they doing and how are they doing it and how can we replicate that. And now I'm down to what's the creative process what's the unique human thing that we do when we bring something new into existence, what are we doing. Not just when we kind of almost have it ready and everyone gets all excited because they recognize how important it is and how great it's going to be and they're all ready to jump on. But what's happening, particularly at the very beginning of that stage where does it come from, we tend to not talk about it and we don't study it and there's not a lot of research around it. So I'm diving in and and and finding some really interesting experiences just exploring the concept in and of itself my intention is then if we can codify something here and there's plenty of information already out there so it's really just kind of trying to bring it to be expand upon what's what we already know. We can then include it in mapping so that when we're mapping things we can, we can see this aspect more clearly and then that becomes part of the greater knowledge repository as well and becomes a way to map to look at things. This focus and the cycle of emergence I'm calling it as as this tiny little aspect, but then again I'm also taking the meta view and this and going, this is just one process we're not seeing. I think I think it's an important one but there are many. And so how the process of how we collaborate the process of how we choose one thing over another the process of how we solve, solve for dissension or conflict right now all of these could be potential deep dives and I think all of them require collaborative the collaborative interweaving of ideas and thoughts, not just something emerging from one discipline or one academic place or one company. So all of these are important and I know last week I was bringing up the idea of maybe having a new flow for someone say like classes work for people to focus in on say one person's object somebody who's already doing a fabulous work in the world. How can people from many different disciplines come together to maybe help that one person in the community advance a little bit fat advance their thing a little bit faster. That's another opportunity to kind of run an experiment through a new process and see if it emerges with something different. That's what I'm working on. Thanks everyone. Wow. Thanks Wendy. That's great and then you every sentence you were saying I was like oh right there's that over there and then there's this piece over here and yeah, it's a delightful stew. Michael, if you want to check in. We can actually take a few more minutes and get most everybody. And you may not be listening to us at this moment in which case we might be Oh no there you are awesome. You're muted still there we go. Yeah, I don't know if this will work. I've been bouncing on and off. And I hope you can hear me better than I've been able to hear you. You're sounding, you're sounding okay. Oh, good. Well, quick check in from from North Carolina and my grandfather. Oh, no. Now you are breaking up, you may want to turn Michael. Can you turn your video off and just speak all of the many objects that exist. A life throws off and and thinking about them in terms of of of the knowledge repository and the history repository that a lot of them should belong to. And, you know, I think a lot a lot of that. A lot of the ability to a lot of things we've been talking about sort of overlap in my mind about one's digital home and privacy decentralization abortion as an expression of bodily autonomy and privacy which I wish, you know, going back to the question of why, why aren't men, more men, more outraged about the this this decision and and this issue. And I think one of that that choice and privacy as they exist in every context are not just a women's issue. And, you know, not just about reproductive rights, and it's just kind of baffling to me that that, even with the kind of clear. Messaging the clear overlap and messaging of my body my choice with regard to vaccination. It's still possible to fool people into thinking that this issue is is somehow not their issue. And, you know, and it's most particularly an issue for those with any sense of conscience about the way, you know, women are legislated against both officially and unofficially. Yeah, I mean, are you are, do you deserve to be safe at home in your own space in every sense, you know that the fact that our, our homes, and where we keep our stuff can be disconnected from us by an internet outage, as opposed to being, you know, our knowledge and selves being under our own control, and that we don't have the power to choose who we share information with, and don't share information with to sort of all rolls up into one big ball. It's really interesting to hear, hear these, these different issues come up and think about how they all intersect. So that's where my, my head is here and the strange environs I'm in. Thanks Michael, you helped me, you helped me click a lot of things together in my head as well, just from what you said right now. We have a dear friend who lives in Denver, whose parents whose father whose last parent passed away a couple years ago, and his her father had been a decorated World War two hero, and left a huge number of things, all neatly marked and labeled and her task for the better part of I think more than a year was to find museums that wanted the different pieces and to sort of donate different different parts of the legacy into the right places and it was just this beautiful, and she's very diligent and thoughtful and so just hearing the stories of this was was remarkable. I'd love to connect with her or learn more about what she did just because pop in as we call him is a World War two vet and Korean War vet and you know, there's a lot of that kind of stuff. And I think along with other things, and I think about the digital archival all that, instead of, you know, the museum in so much but you know there's both the physical and the digital. So expect an email expect an email shortly connecting you with Linda Nelson. Okay. And I think she'd be thrilled to talk to you. She doesn't, she doesn't live in the New York area by any chance does she. Not that I know of. She used to work at Gensler she was like a early employee. I'm a name just would have been funny. Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, she's she's built airports around the world that was like her specialty and Gensler is one of the world's big design firms. So, thanks everybody. Stacey I hope your head feels better. Yeah, thank you all for for being here wholeheartedly. See you next week let's pick a Jerry Jerry as long as we're here we've taken, why don't you check in it was long and less people have to leave our way but you have you haven't gone, we'd like to know it's gone with you. Okay. Thanks again. Yeah, my, so the last month has been like remarkable in my little world. I have some funding to pursue the shared memory thing that I would, you know that we've been working on that I'd like to work on. And I'm still I'm trying to figure out right now, what are the moving parts how does it work. How does OGM fit the picture because it's a very OGM II thing and I need to figure out like what goes where. And a lot of the stuff that we've been doing in pre juries brand and other kinds of places fits really beautifully Wendy the tapestry that you're working on and the now the emergent framework fits all these things kind of work. And so, I've been having some more conversations to figure out also who else is working on this puzzle so for example, I had a call with Danny Hillis. And I never really had a sit down conversation with Danny but I met him years ago at PC forum because he used to attend regularly our conference. He built, he was a connection machine way back in the day and then he built met a web, which created free base which they sold to Google, and which Google then basically privatized as their knowledge graph. And he regrets that that got taken out of the public domain and we had a lovely conversation with this really similar kinds of intentions about how do we actually sort of create a public sphere, which is more useful and usable. And so their current project is called underlay, and I was busy saying you know, I look at your underlay project and I don't figure out how what I'm doing here with with the brain and other sorts of tools fits. I should say that there's an underlay project there's an overlay project which is where tools like that fit and then there's this interlay layer, which helps the gears mesh and we didn't go very deep into it, but I'm like, oh okay. There are there are people out there who have this intention of creating a generative commons I think in the spirit that we were talking about in our generative commons conversations that I would like to go find and connect back in and see if we can't find some resonance where each of these entities is busy building the thing they see that fits where the fit in the middle works better. So I'm sorry I haven't been on the circle, the book circle calls or the mapping calls I need to step back in and jump in. I've been trying to sort out all this kind of stuff and it's exciting and head exploding. So I'm in a I'm in a good place and a bit more like stable than I was before financially. So, so we expect to hear a whole bunch more as I figure out how to how to talk about all this and where it fits. Thanks Ken. Yes. Hi. Thanks for asking. And see all in the intro tubes and we'll go deeper into all the session. Thank you. Ciao.