Hay, yu spangin kilkwa heatinga na kutapuna sa tumuputu niwa, wa niha kutapuna kwenia wa iwiwa hweyiwa. This is mwna wa ngayika maqожee milya wajinama mwna. Now, k ب ladnisha na famili kini militi tumuputu inuwe nana na parea. Mili famili mnusatawe niwa kilki.  It has gone so bad that many cannot even fend for themselves, that many even end up in the streets and sadly so some even end up dying. It is all about codependency and alcohol addiction in families on this particular conversation on Powatok to empower you and your family that you can be able to hear somebody's story, get to know what somebody else went through and maybe you may find a solution towards your particular problem. Ladies and gentlemen, to help us in this conversation, I am with to my extreme right none other than Agnes Kingori she is a recovering codependent, Karibusana Agnes. It's a pleasure having you and of course next to me is Brenda Ochien. She is a recovery coach Karibusana Brenda and of course this is the best panel. There is none that can talk about this, you will be able to hear their story and my goodness you will be touched. You will be touched, I promise you so, you will be touched. Keep engaging with us. The hashtag is powatokshow at Ram Agukko and at Y254 channel that is the official station handle. Let us know where you are watching us from and I shall sample your feedback a bit later on during this morning conversation. Powatok starts now. Let me start with you Agnes. No, Brenda first. There is a terminology that I have used and then I will come to you Agnes. There is a terminology that I have used that many will not be able to understand if we don't decipher or distinguish or elongate what it means or define it. I mentioned codependency and I want to know what that is all about. What is this thing called codependency? Codependency in a nutshell is people addictions. So if you are codependent, technically it means that there is an addict somewhere. For example, there is somebody who is an addict, that person is addicted to a drug or alcohol or sex or pornography or gambling. That's what he or she is addicted to. And me as a person who is very close to that person, I am addicted to her or him. You love them? I love them too much and I love them the wrong way. In fact, you can't love too much so I am loving them the wrong way. What do you mean by loving somebody? You can love somebody in the wrong way. I love them in such a way that I actually make them continue in their addiction. So for example, if this person is a drug addict, every morning they tell me, oh, suppose it's my son, oh mom, please give me money because I need to go to college. And I know very well this guy never goes to college. But I give him the money anyway. And when he gets the money, he is going to go straight into the bar to the person who sells him drugs. And so he is not going to go to school. I am going to be called. He is not in school. When he comes back I ask him, why weren't you in school? And he will tell me, oh, this and that and the other. Tomorrow morning he will ask me for money again. And you will see him going.  And you are not offering a solution to that particular problem because you love them. Because I love them. And it is driven by fear. Perhaps I am afraid that if I say no, he is going to hate me. If I say no, he will go and go kabisa, he will leave me and I am terrified of being left. Possibly it is very deep rooted. Right from childhood I have abandonment issues. So I cling to things and people. And that is what being co-dependent means.  You have a wonderful, inspiring story. Let's get to know your story from the beginning. I am the eighth born in my family.  My parents were Christians, but there was a lot of alcohol in the family. So my big brothers and my aunts were actively abusing all kinds of alcohol, drugs. At that age I knew, I didn't know that a bangi could be pranted in a coffee plantation. But in my father's coffee plantation, there was a bangi. And they would put it on top of the roof so that it may dry up so that the seeds may not go back to the plantation, to the coffee plantation. But my father was told. It was encouraged? It was not encouraged. He didn't even know that it was being pranted. It looked like another weed. We call it Mufagi. Mount Kenya. So it smelled almost the same. So whenever my father would ask why are you putting some weed on top of the roof? My brothers and my uncles who were abusing would tell him that so that the seeds may not go back to the to become more troublesome in the coffee plantation. Oh, when you were playing with this man. Yes. And since he was a rich man and a prominent man, he had this picture the neighbor saw nothing could get into that home. But believe me, when my uncle was drunk from my mother's side, my aunts used to drink everything turned inside out. Because they would come with women, men. And I am about 8 years, 10 years I saw two pictures of these grownups and I was not supposed to talk to say anything about it. Don't talk, don't feel, don't cry. And I couldn't report. My father was busy outside and my mother was also a business woman. Most of the time we were left to our uncles and aunts because I'm supposed to obey them I never talked about it. So you saw this happening. I saw. You knew it was wrong. I didn't know. You did not know it was wrong. Did you engage in it? No, I hated it. I hated alcohol, I hated anything. I hated their behavior. I even hated growing up because I said if growing up would mean this then I wouldn't want to grow up. And I was 8 years. So much, much later when I came to Alikapa program that's when I was told that that was the drug abuse alcoholism. That's when it was explained to me. But believe you me I said that I would never drink and I would also not marry a drunkard. That's the promise you made? I promised myself. When you were younger? Yeah. And I made sure. I finished my high school. I didn't drink, I didn't use, I didn't even engage with anybody who used or drank. I was a church person until I got married to one who pleaded for two years that he could never drink. Wait until the day I gave birth it was like a bomb which was pumped. He didn't come home for four days. All the time? All the time. He used to drink but you never knew? He didn't show. He didn't come home drunk. He didn't even show any sign of drinking because I had specifically told him that if ever you would drink you would not stay together. So he played his cards right? Until I get my first born.  You've heard what you said. Families engaging in drug use and drug abuse it is in their home. What makes it interesting is it is in your home but your own father does not know about it. What makes it also even more interesting is you are married to this person but you don't know that they are addicts or they take alcohol or they take drugs or they abuse drugs. How can we solve such kind of cases in family? Is it possible to detect or is it that we love them too much or so much that we can't even detect such signs? Many times for dependents are in denial. It might be a very subconscious thing. It can be a subconscious thing where you might see the sign, somebody might even mention it but you say no. Not even somebody mentioning it. You might not get that inclin that something is there or something is going on but you just deny it.  Later on people might even tell you I thought I saw your boiler here and there and you'll say no, he just does business meetings. Even if it's in a box it's a business meeting. I think that there's some funny things which grow in your farm and just like she's saying he will say probably it is that weed which is growing over there. You don't see.  That's when we started talking about elephants in the room. Can you imagine an elephant in the middle of this room and you can't see it? You never even suspected even a bit about what's going on. Your father never suspected even a bit about what was going on. My father was a Christian that nothing long would go on in a Christian who believed. My mother was a choir person. Even my aunts, the ones who were drinking on any other day, on Saturdays they were in church. How can you think bad about them? And they are the ones who are teaching you catechism. Until I joined the program I was a guy. I had been living in Jinao all this time. Then my husband he knew that if he placed this that a game before I got a child I would leave. And you were strict about it? I was strict about it. I had suffered as a child. So he waited until I got a first born. And he knew as a Christian that we did a very big wedding church wedding but believe me it was drama. What do you mean drama? Because we were not serious. We didn't mean what. It was just for show? Yeah, for show. So it was a big show. So that I may be grounded in that home. I had a good career. So I had good money. I was sharp. He was also sharp So we used to see a brighter future together. That did not happen. But my boys thought that we were the perfect family my first two boys. But towards at one point this drama was added and then the egg broke. We were left shattered. And that was after you gave back to your first child? Now the second one. Now let me push you back again. Let's go back again in time. You said that you suffered as a child because of drugs in the house and drug abuse in the house. How was it? Just in a nutshell and maybe also piece of advice to a parent who is watching you today. Namtotuake is engaged in this thing and they either know or do not know. But let's get your story. How was it for you as a child? Number one, I didn't have anybody to tell what I was seeing, what I was hearing. My parents could not reason to me. You cannot talk about grownups that you are a child in my family. And you used to get a beating. I remember getting beatings until I kind of nabbed. I became nabbed because of even talking about being abused by being beaten by my uncles. So I didn't talk about anything or including when I'm sick I couldn't say I have a stomach ache or a headache. Because if you talk before you get beaten. You get beaten. And that's a mistake most parents make. Or if you cease anything. Imagine you are not supposed to see a drunkard struggling with opposite sex in the compound. You are not supposed to see that's what I was trained. Most parents end up beating their child because of mtutama ongeya. Mtutama onafana makosa. What's your take on that? Very, very damaging. Because that is how abuse can thrive. You can imagine even in the home if a child is being sexually abused and this usually happens by somebody you know very well. It is that house boy, house girl uncle or something. It means that they cannot say. If I am to say, if me as a child I am to say so and so has touched me in a bad way I will be beaten. Because they don't believe you. They prefer not to believe because they don't want to deal with it. Imagine having to confront your brother that you have abused now my child. But should you do it? Yes, absolutely. Even if it means breaking your family into two. Because this person will continue to perpetrate damaging your child. The child is being damaged. And the abused person eventually will become an abuser. So this is becoming a very rotten society. Do you agree with that? I agree because today I work with families who are abused. And this is exactly what I hear from from their homes. Because your child complains about something lakini kama mzazi una kata I've actually seen that happen. And the children always feel afraid. They say, mama mia tani amini she won't believe me. Because that is her brother. Ata amini naji mtoto ake nawini indubu yake wali zalo na kutoka kutumbu moja ata amini vb. But we need to break this chain. That's why this conversation is very important. We need to break this chain. How can we do it? We do it. Chains are broken from the level usually the co-dependent. Me, the mother, the parent, for example, the parent who is seeing all this happen.  It might end up be a very silent child. In school there's always that child who never says anything hardly engages in anything.  And they've been told as Agnes has told us, you may not talk. Some of them have been told the message that they're getting is you should not even have been existing in the first place. So vanishing Veronica. There are people who always just want to disappear into the shadows.  We call them a mascot. He's always going to be hilarious, making people laugh, doing all sorts of the tukos. They want to make others laugh but deep down they're not happy. Deep down they're so sad. Deep down they have a lot of pain. In fact it's like that, when you see the logo of drama there's always a happy face and a sad face. There's a happy face which when you remove there's just tears. Another one will become a scapegoat. Very naughty. You tell him to school he doesn't go to school. He goes somewhere else, plays truant, hooks up with the wrong people. Something like that. But you want to hang out with people in the shanties and such like because you become their hero. You are the Mdosi so you're the hero. Of course you're going to learn to drink, to drug, to do all those things, to hold guns and all that kind of thing. So me as the co-dependent, me as the parent who is the co-dependent the chain breaks at me. The chain does not break at the child.  His work is now to make the family look normal make the family look successful. So he's going to be an overachiever. The best child you ever saw when I was in school you always had to pull up your socks but we hated it. But this one their socks will be up literally pull up their socks.  I mean they're masking but they cannot get rid of it. Me the co-dependent. I'm bothered and I'm wondering what about the case of parents who take alcohol and they have their child Baba Kuya, Onja Kidovo Onja How negative can that affect a child because you know you're doing it for fun because you're with your fellow brothers, Muna Ketichini and them on Cheshire. Number two, I'm looking at two sets of children the first set of children of a child is the one who is growing around a family where alcohol and drug abuse is existing and they choose to follow a different path like you you said that is not the path I will follow but the second type of a child is the one that will now get into that particular trade or culture of alcohol drug abuse because that's how the family is. You taken that? You see the child who says I'm not going to be like this and really manages to get completely out of it it's about ego strength also it's about even what's happening in the life of this particular child when they're so small this family has 11 children the way life was when the first three were born is not the same when the middle ones were born is not the same as when the last ones were born especially middle children really suffer they are kind of forgotten because the first ones are either left more or left then they are empowered the last ones are posited and loved you Tajipanga in the middle such a person and then there's all this abuse going on don't be don't whatever they will not have ego strength they will not have that confidence because they don't want to shake rock the boat so they will just go with the flow they will just survive from one day to another even that survival is not very sure so it just depends on that and again their children so they would need to be then empowered it would need an outside force or direction to help them come out of that me I had an experience with my children I have four boys they are now married I have grandchildren because of their father drinking he was also using drugs and chewing mirror and God knows what else and he used to have so many women in the town we were living and it was a small town my children started now behaving in a funny way they started steering this alcohol from the cupboard and adding water so they started drinking very early when they were young boys that's how many kids do that was it not in anakaholic environment I would not worry but now what happened later with the father who was a graduate teacher in a very big institution the downfall that's the one now made me understand that this was not the path I would have fallen but gotten into we had to separate for this family to continue otherwise there was a lot of violence between me and him and everybody thought that I am the bad one so anytime we would fight everybody would tell me you are not a good woman you are supposed to behave well that's why your husband is getting annoyed you are supposed to cook well that's why your husband is going out with other women you are supposed to dress well that's why I am the bad one so I did exactly what I was advised and most of the time the advice was always from different sides one is telling me to get out of this abusive family and the other one is telling me that I should work harder most of the time I used to work harder what do you mean work harder doing better waking up to 1am in the morning and watching the windows and they are very big windows going to school to learn how to cook going for the best sarunist wearing much from head to toe thinking that I would police the alcoholic I didn't the fighting were increased until one police told us this is not a marriage this is abuse Agnes we live in uniform ya green from head to toe he came drunk he didn't see he came drunk so he couldn't see what I was wearing I wish I knew I would have won nga mbe ni sengenge sengenge ni nga mbe wow now but still on you I want to know your story now Apawali you said that he was pretending to be a good person I got as you thought what made him change his mind what was the trigger and what made you realize that this is not a man I married the duties he started skipping going to class he is a teacher I was always going to the hospital to get sick of we would fight and we would add up both of us not going to work and then the children started feeling him so much so we would always hide under the bed including the maid and I started seeing we say alcoholism is a progressive disease or addiction so he started going down and he went down with us financially socially people stopped coming to my house because they didn't know which state they were fighting sometimes they were fighting other times they were fighting him not wearing proper dressing and God knows what else so if you have visitors does he know that you have visitors did he know that you are not allowed to bring visitors in the house unless they are drinking buddies and if you bring including his own brothers and parents you have to ask for permission and he would go drink and forget that the father was coming to see him my father now that is his father in law his father now I would announce that the father is coming to see the son only to be told that it is a setup they wanted to win his drinking happiness why do you bring visitors I remember one time he chased some women although in our culture having women coming to Sripava was no more but in my house you couldn't they came to bring another day to give birth we were next to the hospital you know they watch that 2 am in the morning they were told this is not a hospital extension you know how much did they get about 10 you know Matatos got finished at around 9 so they said our son is in this school it is from his village not from my village then he comes at 2 am and I tell him the women from your village had come to bring another day to give birth thinking that it is something good I am saying they had to leave at 2 am they went and slept in the outpatient you said that at some point you had to hide under the bed together with your children and your household fear fear I was used to fear so much that I even feared the telephone ringing I would jump and now I wouldn't do anything if I was cooking I would abandon the cooking because of the fear when you know that he is on his way coming even imagine that he would come that fear would overwhelm me and then I would not even suck on the baby the time the baby was young you had a suckling baby at that time all this time I used to have babies you see in an alcoholic environment having babies is the game because there is no more fun in this home so your work is to give babies so at that time they became 3 they ended up 4 Brenda no no you even choked for that I am what's coming in your mind as you're hearing her story I'm looking at a professional I'm looking at somebody who came from a family that had a lot of money and ends up like this and does not have the power is not empowered and within herself doesn't have the power and doesn't know where else you can go to get the power and you know what you were saying earlier asking about this thing of people giving their children going to the bar with their kids and giving children alcohols and people give actually babies alcohol so that they keep quiet and develop tolerance in their bodies for drugs alcohol chemicals basically meaning what meaning even when they grow up and they're trying to drink socially we all go out after this and you want to drink socially you guys are going to go away after 2 beers 3 beers you might even leave the beer there because you have reached the level where it has satisfied you there's certain where you want to feel and you're going to attain it after 2 beers if you're a normal person she'll be happy with 1 beer for me I need 6, 8, 10 in order to reach where you were because the first 4 were just water my body is resistant and now I am going to become an alcoholic because the quantities of alcohol that I need in order to feel what normal people feel is going to be massive the first 4 bottles are just water ya infact I don't even know why you're drinking beer give me gin but you were also at some point addicted yes tell me about that for me I got addicted and I didn't realize that I was getting addicted infact that very tolerance I'm talking about whereas I grew up in a family that they were Christian they never drank alcohol there was once alcohol in the house which was a gift and there was hysteria in that house until we had to get rid of it my environment was completely alcohol free but once I started to drink and to drink socially I never realized that I was getting into problems why? because I never used to mess because what would give you an indicator that you're drinking too much that you're messing I'm drinking I'm falling on the table you're telling me I'm not going out of you again ever you're just an embarrassment people are showing me videos of things I did dancing on the table and all that for me I used to drink and not get like that and people would say isn't it a bit too much or why drinking vodka in the first place and you're a lady ladies drink cherry king fish and things like that and I'm a people pleaser so if you say that I don't want to upset you so I'll drink what you're telling me to drink but when I get home you'll go back to the hard stuff so I'll leave and drink it before I come and you won't even know by the way that I've had something to do because your body or your system adjusted to that hard stuff so by the time I was realizing I have a problem and the only thing that made me really brought me down to earth and say I have a problem is when I contracted TB the doctor told me you cannot drink alcohol and I was suffering so much I had neglected it I was suffering so much it was so badly gone and I'm like yeah yeah yeah swa upon a stack of bibles I will not drink alcohol and they gave me the medication and I spent two days not drinking alcohol I felt as though my spirit was leaving my body I was dying I came to realize I cannot I cannot do it without alcohol if I do it without alcohol I'm I'm literally dying it was so hard but even the way I physically felt my body was giving me grief and then in the morning demons would arrive in the name of hallucinations you were seeing things I see things and hear voices eventually I would hear voices even in broad daylight I'm hearing music which nobody else can hear auditory hallucinations I tried to do something with myself go and look for work all over Kenyatta Avenue I'm seeing giraffes great big giraffes with teeth so I would the illusions those are trees actually but me I'm seeing giraffes so around about that time I thought okay I think I have a problem you're seeing giraffes that's a whole new label what when you see somebody like a human being I used to see many human beings with green eyes and distorted eyes and they were always looking at me malevolently I don't know how come I'm the only one who sees these people in town and all over I even saw some I went to try and I saw others but I guess they didn't really look like that those were still illusions they were just normal people but that's what I would see I would see things that are not there or that are distorted my perception was distorted I was always afraid and eventually I became house-ridden because I couldn't go out because of that I was scared of red buildings I would get panic an actual panic attack if I saw a red building the funny thing is that this red building I've been seeing it all along I even used to jog and pass this red building whether a car is coming or a bus I won't move I'm just frozen because I've seen a red building I have no idea why a red building I guess that's also something very deep inside my unconscious mind you just have no idea why it's carrying you it's just carrying you it's just carrying me very very much at some point I even acquired I became a journalist and I had to go to to get my pass was it renew it was it in Jogo house or where all I know is that when I got there I couldn't get inside the building because the building is made of brick so I tried I tried I couldn't so up to today it has never been renewed this is many years later and that was the end of that that was the end of it I never wrote again not professionally I haven't stopped watching news because I didn't want to see other people's stories my colleague's stories and that's how bad it can be let me come to you again still about the addiction part how did it affect your family even eating habits as the alcoholic continued drinking and getting himself into a mess the whole family started adjusting so we could eat very quickly and go to bed we could not even sit on the table on the dining table because we never knew at what point the fighting would start and he used to say that is the women I hang around with are the ones making me behave badly so I dropped all my friends including the church members he stopped going to church too I had to stop actually what used to happen is the minute we used to stay less than 10 minutes from the church I used to go to but he would wait until 10 minutes before service time and then he would say that he wants soup ox tail soup and it has to be boiled for an hour he used to say that he is my god and without him I cannot live and I believed and in fact I went and told my religious reader and he said oh obey him your pastor told you that your husband is your god I told him that I don't come to church because my husband says that I have to adhere to him and what did your your church leaders say he didn't advise anything number one the good thing about him is that when he is not drunk he is a saint he is the one who will take the boys to the church give the biggest of atole and he would go on for a month or even more until the next now drinking beach and he would come wasted and god knows what nobody and oh being beaten all over and even having bandages so I couldn't marry the two people the one who is not drinking and behaving like a father and a good man teacher and professional and this other person who has all of a sudden without notice drunk we were supposed to go somewhere maybe sometimes it's Christmas time or festive time or even a birthday and he would appear the opposite so there was a lot of confusion I couldn't keep promises I remember one day the grand mother his own grand mother had invited us we were supposed to travel and we used to have a car he went to get the car checked and he came after four days without the car what happened to the car he forgot he left it at the garage and he went drinking and he forgot that we were supposed to go somewhere and because he is a man he asked kweni where are you going where are you going I told him but you promised your grand mother we will go and the children were all set and those days we used to borrow sweaters from the neighbor those are the days even the hard bags they used to rotate in the neighborhood so I have done all that I have given the maid go home leave your children they all said waiting to go to the man to come without a car after four days after four days you can imagine the feeling as a mother I have to explain to these boys why we are not going to the grand mother and I have to write to them because I want to protect this man I also want to protect our name we are married remember our name and there is the society seeds his name is my shame in fact I remember I used to get a stomach ache when he has a hangover he is the one who is having a hangover but it is kind of the pain is transferred to me because I am the wife I want to take a break we will be back and then we will get to know more about your stories wow guys keep engaging with us the hashtag is part of the show at Ramaguko and that Y254 channel is where you can be able to engage with us in this particular conversation tell us what you think about alcohol and drug addiction has affected your family how deep rooted is it in your home and what are the possible solutions that you've managed to come up with so far are you still struggling with it what is the way forward today we are talking about this particular conversation and of course be part of of this particular show my name is Ramaguko at Ramaguko is where you can be able to find me on all my social media handles we are taking a break we will be back in a bit after this I want us to find out what solution did you guys come up with and are you still together for you when it comes to the addiction how did you solve it I can see you working with the with the crutch is that as a result of addiction how did it affect you in the long term and do you still have the employment women are affected what of the people in Umbani what is there all of you let's take a break we will be back in a bit this is part of why 254 imagine that's why we are back thank you so much for being part of this morning conversation this is power talk it's all about understanding how diverse alcoholism and drug addiction can be especially in a family ladies and gentlemen the hashtag is power talk show at Ramaguko and that's why 254 channel that's where you can be able to engage with us head over to our Facebook page and drop in your comments on the comments section on that particular page and we shall sample your feedback a bit later on during this particular program I am with Agnes Kingori a recovering co-dependent and Brenda O'Ching who is a recovery coach giving us their story but now before we went on that break Agnes you said it was so bad that now you have to take the blame not air your dirty lillian in the public but then of the day people blame you now let me touch on that particular aspect here because women are always the ones who are being told that if your husband is cheating on you you are the problem if your husband is drinking you are the problem if the husband cannot stay at home you are the problem in fact I got those musicians even from the church my own church and from my parents I was told that I am not a good mother I don't cook well I don't take care of the children so what I did I increased in doing good hoping they will change hoping that he would change he would look at my side he would stop going out with other women the problem initially was going with other women then it came to finances then it came to the corrupts of the even our careers both of us so you lost your career I also lost my career because of the depressions now let's talk about about that particular aspect here but before I come to you because I want to know how it affected you now personally Brenda you said you became addicted to it how did you family handle such kind of a case and how are they receiving you they didn't know fortunately I didn't live with them I lived with an elder sister she was a workaholic she didn't even see it coming because just as Agnes is saying an alcoholic is very two faced so many times she would see this over me they are very hard worker I do things in extreme so when I really clean and when I really do whatever I was working in the entertainment industry sometimes I'd be around at home but other times I'd go and do a show and have lots of money so she didn't really see it she probably thinks because I had a late show last night you're tired kumbe kwa ground the difference kwa ground the difference kumbe had snuck out at the break of dawn at 6 o'clock to go into Gigi and get more alcohol because the demons are even a carpet the ones that have flowers I would see dragons and things on them you know how we see those things in movies I thought movies only exaggerate things kumbe the movies are saying the real thing you see a dragon in the carpet and they are looking at you malevolently the only thing that's going to cure that and turn the ants are walking tashitari tashitari alis nations ants are walking all over me only thing that will cure that is a drink so the guy even he used to call me names the guy at the Gigi because I'm knocking his door at 6am I would even have knocked earlier except it was dark I need a drink and I wouldn't drink it there I would take the stuff and go and sneak back into the house drink it become steady even be able to shower otherwise I wouldn't shower for 4 days even be able to shower make breakfast so who does my sister see the very nice younger sister who always has everything in order but you wouldn't shower for 4 days I'll put on the heater I'll put one finger in the shower see you there and then wash here only here hygiene is not an issue ah ah no what would be your piece of advice to that family that is watching you today that is struggling with their child or their husband or their wife that is an addict of course your piece of advice to even people who work and live with an addict how would you prefer at the handle such a person first I'll tell you open your eyes I'll tell every family that open your eyes because in this country addiction and drinking is just so real open your eyes to the signs that are there you may be able to arrest it early if you already have an alcoholic I mean the day to help that alcoholic is today and the way we do there's something called an intervention this is a carefully planned procedure we have an alcoholic in the family there's no need of me the mother nagging and nagging she's telling you how it is to go I will nag this person he will drink I will beat this person he will drink I will lock him out he will drink I will pray for him while I'm doing that he's in the bar which doctor he will drink because a co-dependent is always trying to control and the thing is I'm powerless over this person when you get into recovery you will learn that you are powerless over another human being I cannot control another human being so this is what I must do I must look for an intervention try and make an intervention for this alcoholic carefully plan things I must choose these people who are going to do this intervention very carefully maybe somebody from the church somebody he respects and likes not that person who is going to nag him and tell him it's okay for your husband to beat you maybe his best friend who has even been asking me what's going on somebody he respects about 4 to 6 people and then we are going to plan this thing that now we are going to do an intervention on this person this person is in denial denial comes with addiction the same way fever comes with malaria it's not because he's a bad person that he's in denial that's just part of the disease so now we are going to tell this person that he needs help and the way we are going to bring him to the point where he accepts he needs help is that we are going to convene a location a place a specific day and then we are going to call this person and in a very calm and loving manner but very assertive manner we are going to tell him you have a problem and each one of us is going to tell him why we think he has a problem and when does rehab come in play rehab will come after this after this person has come to the place where he agrees that he has a problem then we'll stay and we will already have done our research again I will tell families do your research don't just go to the nearest rehab or one you have heard about unfortunately many rehabs today are just businesses they don't care about you they don't care whether your person gets better or not infact if he relapses the better because that means that they will bring you back and they will come back again a good rehab has good counselors trained counselors and people who really care people who have a passion for helping but what if the addict doesn't want to go for rehab oh yes so during this intervention we will have planned each of us is going to give him a consequence me as the mother if you are not going to rehab please move out of my house today because I am done with your drama what if they say ok what if they go go all this time the problem has been I've been shielding him from the consequences go you want them to learn from the consequences go alright I'll come back to that let me come to you Agnes your story all this time I've been hearing about your husband let me hear about you how did this affect you and how did it change your life everything it changed everything because that person went that decent person left the person who beds every day washes his body every day left because if your husband is not bathing why should you bathe and you are sleeping in the same bed who will know now who is not bathing so I stopped my hygiene my health my eating behaviors they all changed and I became very thin and the person who puts on oil and is not going anywhere because of the dryness dryness of the skin that's who I became then my second born was 2 years and we had fought for quite some time he decided that because he goes to the bar and the women snatch him I should be taking him to the bar so I decided to be going to watch on him so women snatch they steal they used to steal him that's what he used to say also they take his money and everything else no him the person the man so he demanded that I go become his watchman we go home together I don't understand it you cannot understand it because you are not in the womb and you can also understand because you are not living in an alcoholic but anything could go wow so I kept him company and I'm staying there until 4 o'clock in the morning and I'm taking tea which he used to finish at 10 o'clock in the evening so I would take water and sodas but being there the whole night at some point you were not tempted to drink at some point I didn't until one day I would go to the toilet come back I had left the soda there on the table only to drink it and it had something another taste that was there of me I started drinking there I didn't know what I was putting in that soda and I remember the next two months I would take myself to the bar and it bring ask for a soda ask for a alcohol your drink was piked someone put something in it did you know who did it and what was putting my husband was there so he was supposed to take care of me he said that I get so bald after 1am I became so bored and nagging that we should go home so to keep me to keep then my voice I could not raise my voice together with other drunkards who after some drinks they started raising their voices I didn't know why they kept on raising their voices so he wanted that drama and he got it but now again after 2 years he didn't like again the drama he started okay let me first forward as you tell us what made him not like the drama first forward tell me now how what was the worst level the lowest point that you got to but started that part where he didn't like you after 2 years the lowest the lowest was we had to separate and I had to go with the boys okay I had to leave the boys I went alone to I came to Nairobi and stayed in a company house I used to work with post office telecom and then after 1 year I was told by the family to pick the children the other boys and I had to obey again I picked them that time already he had already married another woman with 2 3 children so he was him he was okay I was the one who was on the wrong according to your in-laws according to him my in-laws were good my mother in law was a good woman God bless her soul in my internal peace she used to care for me but she didn't have the voice everybody was saying ah you even used to boast that you had the good job a lot of money let's see what you become they were laughing at me my in-laws including my own brothers and sisters it's like they were feeling jealous that I had cried the ladder so fast then I'm falling like they enjoyed it but you became an addict when he put some alcohol in my soda I don't know what else from there either what I used to do or what the other people used to do to me because all what I know is that by that time the company was going down and I think I went down with it we never by that time I had done accounting CPA one and I had moved from my office to an accounting office in the same company and I used to be there the one preparing the final accounts and the drama was the the companies there never used to demand yearly report so we would delay reports for 3 years because we are busy drinking all of us in the office and that was the game everyday now when the money started going down the marriage started going down we separated and it went with all the properties you lost everything everything including the mabatis on the roof he sent somebody to remove the mabatis on the roof wait wait you are saying that he came and picked everything from now when I left my matrimonio home everything was invested in his father's home so I had to live without anything including the boys I didn't live with the boys I went alone wow and within 3 years there was nothing we had so different so both of us became poor poor me but now why did you remain with the children doesn't he also in our culture the children belongs to the woman not the man especially now having another woman the pressure will be on push these boys away so that they may not demand the land the inheritance but now there is nothing to inherit his father's oh his father's okay branda I am told time is not on our side so I want us to bring this conversation to a close but let me get to hear your story as we finalized what would be your piece of advice to those who are watching you today when it comes to codependency and addiction in families I will tell people who have addicts in their families that you're the person who is going to help this addict and before you're going to help that addict you're going to have to help yourself you have to snap out of the codependency it's not something you just remove like a dress it is something which is a process just like the addict is going to go through a 12 steps program when he's in rehab or on step on up to step 12 in order for him to really get out of addiction you, me, the codependent I have to also go through the same thing he will go to AA eventually I need to go to codependence anonymous I need to go to Alanon I need to be taught to unlearn during all those years that this person was an addict the ways of being, the patterns of thinking of behaving of feeling which are dysfunctional which make me a codependent I have to unlearn them like peeling an onion bit by bit it's a process but it is possible still it is possible it will be possible for me to let go like I'm saying whatever his consequences it will be possible for me actually to let go and tell him I'm not giving him money because I know that this is what you're going to do and the fear well, faith is going to come where the fear was there will not be fear when my activities change his will change when he realizes eh, mum's not there anymore eh, she's not going to come and protect me anymore he's going to change they are very intelligent what was your lowest point throughout this period the lowest point I remember I got was one day when I had gone to my sister's house because I had moved out I used to blame her that she was not making me drink and then I was living somewhere else and she was having a party I came, she was having a party, I swore I wouldn't drink, I drank it I don't know what I drank but the next morning I tried to go to work and I was working for ambassador and I was leaving the house without a skirt the watchman had to tell me ma madam hojawa hojaba skat I go back, I struggle, I struggle I come back, he's standing on my way again I want the skirt but I want the petticoat on top and he's always telling me go to the hospital and I'm abusing but eventually I went to the hospital I was given a stopper because I was refusing to listen to anything and yet my pressure was up and you know they gave me a stopper which is an injection which just completely slowed it because they had to admit me I don't know whether eventually because I was fidgeting as they did it I don't know whether that is eventually what messed up my leg but when I got soba eventually my right leg was kaput my right hip which at some point had healed but now it's just kaput again all over again it's terrible I walk like Akiwete Kapsa that is the present I got from alcoholism it left something it has to give you something when I was in rehab I was so smug people have dents and bottomed me I was just fine kumbe this one was going Agnes I want us to wrap it up give us a final word to kimaliza imaneno la labdakamu okunajambu maybe you can give to that person who is watching you today recovery is possible for both the families and the alcoholic addict himself when we separated I went to a church and heard a priest saying that there is a program that is called dependency koda we call it koda and also alanon this is for families of alcoholic addict I was persuaded by this religious person to join this program one way to realize I needed the three programs including the Alcoholics Anonymous program and when I joined remember we had separated it took me it took my husband 10 years to believe that this very good program for my wife and my children have now started jumping and feeling good about themselves can help me and he joined and he recovered he recovered he passed on after 5 years but he passed when he was in recovery that is a plus wow thank you so much for coming ladies I really appreciate your presence and I wish you the best in everything that you are doing even as we are advocating for people to know more about these things because from this conversation women are really affected from alcohol and drug abuse and I have so many questions that I need to know but we will continue this conversation another day but thank you so much Brenda for coming and of course thank you so much Agnes it's a pleasure and the hashtag is a power talk show on Twitter at Ram Aguko and at Y2F4 channel that presents to the end of this show of this conversation right here on power talk my name is Ram Aguko it's been a pleasure being with you from the beginning and I hope you have learned something and I hope you are going to change I know that you are going to look into your family and find out how you can be able to solve the issue of drug abuse and addiction and alcoholism on behalf of everybody that ensured this show was a success thank you so much this is power talk


Big football team got really good size got athletic quarterback control it run it You know up front. They've got really good size You know a coach like Bruce Kossersky there who's you know former NFL lineman He's got those guys playing well right now just from their two scrimmages And I'm sure they'll be ready for us to come in there Friday night. Well, I think we need to work on our depth I think you know, we've got several guys that are stepping up right now But we need a few more to be able to come in and give our guys a rest but overall I'm happy with our guys effort. They're hustling working hard You can do a lot if you got guys to do that. Well, obviously you ain't got to take care of the football I'm working it's a long road trip for us and you learn a lot of lessons on those road trips sometimes And I hope that we just we go up focused with Our goal in mind and and go up and play well with the school like Holy Cross You know, maybe there's kids coming in and out all the time at places like that So I know there's a lot of new faces on that team this year that weren't there last year or maybe they just all growing up a lot, but Yeah, it worries you a little bit when we came out and played really well against him and you know what our guys forget though Was it they had made a few turnovers or early that really put them in a hole early? But but we played well that game as well, but we're gonna have to play a little bit better to start season this year


Pounder and Director of Bath and Beyond, a program focused on empowering teenage mothers. She is a professional banker, a consultant on matters microlending, women economic empowerment, group management and credit management with at least nine years of experience and from the entry unit bound to be a great, great, great discussion. Karibu Sana. Thank you very much. You're welcome to identify. It's a pleasure to be here and it's a pleasure for you to have me. Karibu Sana. Thank you. So let's just start from, what is Bath and Beyond? Well Bath and Beyond is a program that as part of your introduction that focuses on teenage mothers and probably just as a question normally I ask that when was the last time you had about teenage mothers? You know most of the time when we talk about teenage mothers it's only when we have statistics about teenage pregnancy that has been there are out there or any time we have our national exams and normally you find that most of around that time and if you normally would want to ask a question is how can we prevent teenage pregnancy but no one focuses on the ones who are already pregnant. So teenage, I mean Bath and Beyond is about focusing on young mothers and basically just giving them help and our mission, vision is creating safe spaces for teenage mothers. Yes. When did you start, when did you start Bath and Beyond? When. Bath and Beyond was born many years ago. I was a teenage mother myself. Yeah so let me say around 2011 I was still in the corporate circles because I no longer work in the banking sector. I used to ask myself is it, you know and for me it was about just asking myself where am I headed to. So Bath and Beyond was born in 2011 when I decided that I really want to focus on teenage mothers and because I was big and I'm big in women empowerment so I felt that it was right for me to focus on a particular area and for me focusing on teenage mothers it was really a right time because it's both from a personal experience and really they set a great gap as far as young mothers are concerned. I am tempted to ask the story about being a teenage mother. Please do. Tell us about it. If you don't mind. I love stories. No no no I don't mind. For me it was what do I say. I had a friend and one thing led to another what do I say. I just found myself expectant just immediately after I finished form 4 and at that time it was really difficult. I took quite a long time before I even told anyone that I was actually pregnant. It was a bit tough because for me I was brought up. My mother was though she passed on a few years back she was a disciplinarian so it was really tough. How do we have this conversation? How do I tell her that I'm expectant? So what did I do? I wrote a letter one morning I escorted her to the road because she would walk like a kilometer to the road before she took the vioko to go to school as she used to teach and then I gave her the letter and then I told her that I'm going to go away for two weeks and then after two weeks she needs to decide within those two weeks what she wants to do with me and for me it was like whatever happens I'll just take it and try it. So after two weeks probably after three weeks I came back home I went to my cousin's place for around two weeks so when I came back the first question my mother asked me like after two three days have you started going to the clinic and that was it and that was it yeah that was it. I mean I think sometimes there's nothing we can do it has already happened so to kimchapa yeah yeah oof have you started going to the clinic wow so how was it how what what challenges did you go through as a teenage mum the biggest which is still happening right now is stigma as was yet a teenage pregnancy there's a lot of stigma so and you know the gossip around the village is like oh so and so's daughter is pregnant you know and then people just are castigating you and all that so that was really difficult for me and sometimes when you're just walking to on the road and you're carrying my heavy burden of pregnancy you know was really really tough then again going to the hospital just facing the doctors and the nurses it is really difficult because at that time it was a very friendly environment then of course my friends we've just finished high school they're hanging out all over the place me having to stay at home and take care of my baby it was really tough that way but then what I'm really happy about is that I had a lot of support from my family and I remember I gave birth in October and in January I was back to school yeah for my first diploma yeah so it was a bit easy on the fact that I had support from my family but then even just internally the internal struggles and the external struggles from the society and so on and so forth that was a bit tough that was a bit tough and even having to breastfeed at a young age really it's not easy yeah it's not easy hey that was that was quite that was quite nice I see where the passion to start birth and beyond emanates from how many so far how many teenage mothers have you dealt with for me let me explain this I normally hold events and the events we hold like three or four events in a year as a program in an area called Gataka Inongatarongaio so what we do we invite just girls from all over the place and sometimes we have even young girls who are not yet pregnant and we have other girls who are already pregnant and some who are teenage mothers so sometimes you'll find that we hold events even for 120 200 like this Saturday we held an event which had 214 15 girls they are about so those mass events normally we distribute pads and diapers and clothes and food and all that anything we are able to get so through those events have been able to reach over 1500 girls however from the larger group of girls I normally select like 30 between 30 and 20 girls to work with a longer journey because you realize it's not easy it's not your everyday for a 14 13 year old to get pregnant so normally we walk a journey with them where we take them through counseling and mentorship and during the counseling we have a counselor who works with them and be able just to just to help them just be able to understand what they are going through and all that then we give them mentorship and during the mentorship session is where we normally teach them all these things self awareness, self esteem, negotiation skills breastfeeding, nutrition and so on and so forth we have a curricula that we normally follow so for them we work with them a journey of three months or six months so through those every other three months or six months I'm working with 30 girls who at least on a monthly weekly basis we normally meet so so far have been able to reach over 1500 girls yeah through both ways both sides of intervention oh that's that's quite a big number though but it's just came to me as a concern the other day as I was doing news that there is a very big rise over teenage mothers I remember in my film at high school somewhere yeah somewhere they were recording when we left I left about eight years ago and they were recording we had like six seven girls who were pregnant and that was the biggest number and you know the stigma was something else because we kept looking at them and we were like yeah yeah and then now it has risen to 105 recently so that time eight years ago it was like seven we were they were seven now it is 105 what do you what will you attribute to that rapid increase of teenage pregnancies what I'll say is that it's a whole lot of issues I wouldn't allude it to one particular issue but what I say one is that there is a bit of a breakdown in family and social structure you find that a long time ago taking care of a child was basically a societal approach there was a societal approach but nowadays you find that parents we are all there working which is still okay and we are busy just how they are so probably in the morning you live at six in the morning back at eight in the evening so you find even that that point of mentorship and connection with your child does not exist so many of us are just on the grind and just all over so you find that the child has been left to their school to be able to walk with them and to be able to mentor them and sometimes we will think that the school is our one stop shop place that's supposed to provide everything that that child needs so you find that they these are disconnect at the family front long time ago you will find that sometimes you find that even if it's your teacher who finds you on the wrong they are actually willing to thrash you right there if it is anyone you know the society was concerned about their upbringing of a child but nowadays you find it up to you as a parent to get to know how and what to be able to do so you find on that on that tango there is a there is a bit of a gap on that then again you also find that there is a lot of information on social media you find that and you know they I mean there is a wealth of information and some of it is negative so you find that sometimes children are really growing up very fast because they have access to internet and they can ask all these questions and get all these answers get all these ideas also so there is also that kind of an influence and basically you find that you know that influence is a child to be able to move into early sexual encounter and again now that leads to you know to teenage pregnancy it's teenage pregnancy is a whole is a whole lot of discussion what is the worst case you've dealt with well the worst case I've dealt with I came across it this year we have we have within the larger group of girls we are supporting we have a young girl who is who is who is how I don't know how to put it she's mentally challenged and and she's around 13 14 years and she's expectant when I get to hear her story no she gave birth this month actually she gave birth to a girl when I get when I got to hear about her story she she because she does not have a parent who is taking care of her who is providing for her you find that the way in which she can be able to earn an income or money or upkeep is by going out to for sexual transaction and from that she's given 200 shillings so and she goes on and goes on and goes on so she she became pregnant and she's challenged and she's you know her mother is also you know challenged to say the least and she name is she does she's not living in a really supportive family structure so for me that was a really that was a really such a depressing state because I looked at her and I was like okay fine what happens even after she gives birth right now we're trying to find out how else can we be able to support her the other really the other the other really sad part or rather sad case that I came across was also a young girl who was probably she's currently in grade five was defiled and just trying even to follow up who defiled her it's a it's a relative and sometimes I look at that girl and I'm like we don't even have the right clothes for that girl to be able to ever in she's breast feeding because you find that sometimes she she wears clothes that are you know a dress that is you know and then you know just trying even to remove her breast to be able to breast feed and I look at it like that and it's really sad and you know and just imagine in who is this who looked at this girl and just saw a woman who you can be able to you know I mean come on you know so some of those cases are really depressing they are quite a number but those two really depress me for a for a while there yeah today in the morning I was asking people one of the last time you cried and and and now you're saying that I feel like crying I'm like today will be the last time I cried can't see again it's still looking at me I'm like who does that to a child who does that who does that what so um is it is it do you have a partnership with authorities such that if you find the perpetrators you are able to forward them or how does it work okay it's a whole conundrum let me say that so sometimes a program we choose to focus on the girl and what we can be able to do for the girl and the kind of interventions we can be able to actually do for her however because we don't work alone we have community health volunteers we have people who are in the league of fraternity so sometimes you find that all these people because all of us are focused and working in the same area you find that everyone is doing what they can so yes we have partners who are in different spaces so we are always trying to work together and find out how can we be able to help this person so we can only do it through referral and you do if you are in the league of fraternity and you look for and normally you give legal intervention so follow that as far as this case is concerned personally I'm doing counseling mentorship and giving them dignity to see that is what we do so we work in a partnership just to be able to help the same person but as a program we do not follow the legal route so you just deal with the girl then what happens up on belly the authorities or the girl and the family will decide so do you help girls who who don't have parental figures or you help everyone like you know in terms of I am a teenage mum but I have parents or do you help those ones that they are teenage mothers but they don't have support for lack of a better one we don't we normally don't select the ones we help because anyone who comes through our hands and we are able to actually help we help and what I'll be able to say is that you find that even those who are having parental figures or parents you find that sometimes parents give up on their children so you find we have young mothers right now who are with us but their parents don't even give up what happens to them you know they are not even ready even just to talk to them so you find sometimes the parents just take a back seat from the child's life so for us we don't select we don't discriminate but for us currently we don't have a center or rather we don't have a shelter where we can be able to house girls so we normally support them remotely if I may say that so they normally come to our center or to the space where we have then we do our sessions and they go back home but that's how we we are able to support them that was my next question I love it to ask I love to ask do you have somewhere they can put up in a daily program during the day how effective is it it is still effective because like sometimes when I look at like now the current crop of girls we've been working with since February I look at some of their videos and they are coming and their videos right now I mean they are whole different people you know you look at them and they are like even they are the way they are able to express themselves the way they are able to communicate you find that this is someone who walked in without hope someone who walked in with a veil of shame on their head someone who walked in not knowing okay where exactly do I go because again you see we are saying that society castigates girls who are already pregnant so you see she walked in knowing that out there people do not care about me but in here I have a space a safe space where I can get a hug where people appreciate me where I can be able to ask this questions where I can be able to get this kind of help that I need so yes there is a lot of there is a lot of difference by the time they walk in and the time they leave so the bigger picture for us of course is to have a shelter or a center for the girls so at least they can we normally want to say that it's a one stop shop where at least they can come in get the counseling that you are able to give get mentorship we can be able to give them dignity kits or dignity kit is tailor made for a teenage mother the normal dignity kit has sanitary items only for a girl but our current dignity kit has sanitary items both for the girl and the baby so normally we add things like diapers and clothes and you know all that so dignity kit and she can be able to at least get some education because we have a few girls who have gone through vocational training through sponsorship by several individuals and organizations and essentially that is what we envision for them so that by the time they are we are disconnecting with them and taking them out there they can at least have some way in which they can be able to earn an income yes oh wow I was almost wondering you mentioned dignity kit at first I was like dignity, dignity kits so I wanted to say what is dignity kit now that you've said what it entails inside I was like okay yeah yeah yeah yeah makes sense yes yes yes makes sense so whole family in terms of content that you give the girls what do you mainly teach them mainly or what do you just teach them mainly we teach them parenting because we realize that there is a there is a lot of there is a big parenting gap with young mothers because you realize this girl is a child who's been thrust into parenthood so we teach them parenting some of them don't even know how to breastfeed well some of them don't know proper nutrition some of them don't even know how to hold their babies you know so and in the saco because normally you do group group training and group therapy you find that as this one is doing this right the other one is able to learn so even just the group knowledge happens there so we teach them parenting and parenting has many angles nutrition, breastfeeding you know caring for the baby mental health issues because you find some of them are already they are already feeling depressed and all these so mental health how are they able to going to be able to take care of themselves so that at least they can be able to take care of their children we teach a lot of self awareness self esteem communication skills negotiation skills section reproductive health all these things yes yes yes quite quite quite comprehensive as as we were sharing I was thinking is there is there a time particularly a time where this this this this used to happen in Kitambo I just want I'm just asking got some curiosity where you taking a girl then un atchu am toto Hannah Potea have you ever experienced that one day there we sit okay okay but it was not me who was left a baby but this is one of the stories that has popped in my head when you asked that one of the young mothers around the area that I work around just she's young she she was very young she was below 18 and she was married to this guy quote end quote then I think she was she was undergoing postpartum depression She took the baby and left it with her neighbor. I'm coming. One minute. This is a sad story. You won't laugh after this. I cried. I was just in the morning. It was about to get me. I'm coming in a few minutes. She just walked out. There was a road there. And she got knocked down by a girl and she passed on. Oh wow! I haven't thought any much yet. No, no, she went and she passed on. So there are those cases, there are cases of girls. Right now just on Saturday we were having a discussion of a young girl who gave birth. I think she was around 16 or something. And one before she gave birth she was trying to procure an abortion which was not successful. Now she's given birth, the baby is four days old. She's leaving the baby and going away and disappearing. So yes, those cases are. Personalist, joy achiyom toto izi. But there are so many cases around of family, friends who've been left with babies and girls just disappear. Because they are wondering what is this, how do I face this. And probably postpartum depression is really real especially at that age. And because most of the girls I work with they are not within, they don't have a proper family structure or family support. Which is really important. Yeah, which is really important. I wanted to ask you something. Oh yeah, I've remembered this story. In this event where someone decides to give up their child for adoption. Do you have such cases? Someone decides, let me just give this child to the orphanage. Let them take care of the child. What happens mostly you find in the area that I work with, mostly you find that the girl does not just give up the child like that. You find that sometimes they deliver the child and they leave it in front of a children's home or a church. We have quite a number of facilities that are taking care of babies. So most of them just deliver the baby. They put it in a nice gunia or something and they leave it at the door somewhere. Or in the kijiji somewhere and they just disappear. So it's not like willingly I want to give up this child for adoption. It's just they just abandon the baby. Why though? I mean come on, picture this, you're 14. You live, you know most of the girls I work with they live in the low income areas. So you find that some of them this is a very big house, very big. So they are living in a very small house. Already the family is struggling with basic. So puvati is really real for most of them. And you find that some of them are wondering okay fine when I give back to this child what is going to happen. So normally they are mental status. They are feeling like they have actually hit the wall. And they do not know where do I move, where do I go from here. You see, for me I had the option of my parent. But for them they don't have the option of my parent is going to support me. So some of them they just give up. Because again even when they were expecting they did not have a proper support or probably a proper someone to just give them some direction or the options as we say.  Let's shift gears a bit from bathroom beyond. Why did you choose to do accounting? Why did you choose banking? I mean there are two different things. Well, in fact I did not choose banking. I am a technical teacher. I am a graduate technical teacher. Yes, I saw that too. I was coming there. So by the time I was graduating many years back from technical training there was a backlog of teachers who had not been employed. So going for interviews some of the people who had graduated before us would get like 15-20 marks above us.  So I hustled out there as a private teacher in private schools and you and I know especially in some of those places the salary, the parks are not very good. So by the time I got the offer to join the banking sector the micro finance sector I mean I was like yes please bring it on. So I found myself in a space that I got to love and a job that I got to enjoy and especially because it had a lot of autonomy I could be able to make decisions on my own. It was that these are your targets. These are the means to achieve your target. So long as you achieve your targets we are good to go. So for me I found that kind of an environment really friendly and that is how I found myself doing nine years in that sector. But after nine years I felt... So you were doing that alongside the bathroom build? Bath and beyond? I started bath and beyond. The dream, the thought, the name, the strategy, the concept was all in my mind since 2011. I left the banking sector in 2016. So before that it was just dreams, me thinking okay what do I do? I have so many books I have written. These are the strategies, what I will do, but I never really really started. If anything before 2019, the only thing I did probably I will visit a girl somewhere who is expectant or who is pregnant or who has given birth and I will not know even what to say or what to do, probably I will just give diapers or something. So I had a lot of false stats before 2019. But actually when I started in 2019 way after I had already left the banking sector. So when I was in the banking sector I had just focused on my work and just serving and just doing exactly what I was required to do. But again I still had the dream, I still had the vision and the desire. Well as we, I'm actually being told time is not always I'm like why, how did time just fly like that? So as we bring this discussion to a close what do you think what you'll do say is the greatest challenge right now for you running bath and beyond and also for the teenage mothers? One I'll say for any start-up program the main challenge is people don't believe in your dream until they actually see it. So when you're starting out you're mostly on your own you're mostly just with friends, sometimes you're in family when you're in kwaumbali they wonder okay fine, what exactly are you doing? So that supports sometimes especially at the start-up stages. So for me it's been really almost an uphill task but what I'll say is that I want to thank my partners and supporters because I've had a lot of friends who really stood by me this far so that really for me just being able to have people believe in their dream and partner with me that was the greatest challenge. But going forth just being able to upscale the programs you're having being able like now the girls you're graduating they're around 10 and just having to fundraise for them just to go to vocational school that again is a challenge for us so we are out there just looking for partners who are willing to take them back to school for vocational training and so forth so just supporting our programs that will be for us one of the greatest challenges and one of the things we really love to do. For the teenage mothers what I'll say is that our society needs to accept that teenage mothers are here with us and from statistics I'd want to say that every day in developing countries Kenya being one is that 20,000 girls give birth daily so by close of business today 20,000 girls would have given birth and in Naira that is 7.8 million brought by teenage mothers alone so you realize that if a society we do not do the right thing putting in structures that are going to support that parenting group we need to realize that teenage mothers are here with us and we need to put in proper structures to be able to support them to bring up their children so that means away from their homes we need to deal with puvati we need to deal with period puvati we need to deal in our schools we need to put proper structures to be able to support teenage mothers when they come back to school what programs can we be able to create for them to be able to learn how to breastfeed giving them proper tentables to go back to breastfeed their children in our hospitals how are we treating them are we treating them that the girls are the ones who made the mistake yet the child was conceived by two people so again as a society in churches what are we doing to support teenage mothers so I think that is the greatest challenge that we need to put in structures all over the society to be able to support teenage mothers because again the problem is here with us and you are not wishing it away today or tomorrow yeah hi it's just sad it gets somewhere and you're like what these things are happening and I'm like now that you're saying it the way you've expressed it and you're saying that we need to know that teenage mothers are here with us so we deal with it and I'm like that's one of the parts society has not made peace with the part here they are here to stay so guys put your mind up for it please give us a parting shot I'm still processing everything please give us a parting shot ah what partition do I give that in our own spaces wherever we are let us support young mothers and teenage mothers let us not be quick to judge them because you do not know how and you know what brought them to that space so there is something we can be able to do normally I say that even if you give a simple hug to a young mother it's really just enough for them and you know just reach out to a young mother near you be able to support her anything you can be able to give diapers are very expensive even take just a packet of diapers and I think you will really have done something to be able to help someone in the community you know you'll be able to have shine the light to a young mother out there thank you so much Patricia thank you for coming thank you for sharing I'm left thinking I'm left thinking and being grateful for the things I have you know times we take a lot of things for granted and I'm so grateful thank you for making time to come and talk to us that was Patricia and Jerry guys he also used to say but Patricia if you didn't get her introduction is a founder and director of birth and beyond a program that deals with teenage mothers and we have had a lengthy discussion about the parks and you know everything until surrounding teenage mothers the challenges they face and everything around it and you know it's quite a lot and you see one out there be kind to mambiwa hug one and be nice to them but if I get all emotional and cry that was the strength of a woman in case you got that interview halfway or in case you got the discussion you're getting to get the discussion the discussion sidelines you will see it on our social media handles that is on our youtube channel at Y2fi food channel but right now that was strength of a woman for this week do not touch that dial