I'll thank you all too sweet. Okay, so I decided to do this on a live stream so more people can hear what I'm about to say. And I've got a question in my inbox. So I thought like questions, I might as well, you know, just advertise it to more people so more people get this message. But I've got this question from someone who's experiencing some problems with adhering to the vegan diet specifically. Not too sure if they understand the vegan philosophy. I think they do, but it's more adhering to the diet. So the heart's in the right place, but they're having some problems adhering to the foods. So we'll read out the question here. Hi there, Joey, I need some advice. I've been for a year. Ah, okay, I think maybe she left out vegan. Okay, so let's just, I'll fill in the gaps for this person here. So hi there, Joey, I need some advice. I've been vegan for a year and passed on the conversation to many people which ultimately led to a few becoming vegan and many more conscious of what they're eating. However, I've just come back from a two week holiday and I've been struggling. Example, having the occasional slice of margarita pizza at work, buying chocolate sometimes, that has led me to buying cheese products in the supermarkets. Every day I tell myself to stop, but I'm actually really struggling. Have you got any advice for people like me who know all the debate points and know exactly what I'm doing is wrong so I can go back to being the beautiful vegan I once was? Now, this is interesting. We're gonna tackle this a few ways, but firstly, I'm not sure you can go back to being vegan. So veganism is a belief that you hold. It's an ethical principle. So you hold that principle, but it seems that your actions aren't consistent with the principle that you believe in. So one of two things can happen here. It can be the people you're surrounding yourself with. You don't have a vegan support network. Maybe you're not exposed to the online community and reinforcing this as much as you could be. Two, you are not fully aware of the consequences of those actions. And the reason I say fully is in principle, you might understand it by hearing people talk about it, but actually seeing it hits you on a different level. So first thing I would do for an individual like this is I know it's tough, but it seems like you really wanna be consistent with your beliefs and your actions. What I would do first is watch Dominion. You can find it online, just YouTube Dominion. D-O-M-I-N-I-O-N. I always have problems spelling that when I'm under the pressure, but Dominion, watch it. I've seen it about 10 times and it highlights the victims and their stories and it goes into depth in every area of the animal exploitation industry. So I would watch that through to the end to remind yourself at what the animals are going through. That would be my first thing. And that's what I recommend for new vegans, for people who are doing a vegan challenge. Number one thing, watch Dominion. If you're in the UK, watch Land of Hope and Glory on YouTube, but Dominion covers every aspect of animal exploitation fairly well and it's pretty, you can apply it across the board for most countries. I mean, it's Australia. It does cover some other countries at the end, but Australia sort of prides itself on animal welfare and if Australia are treating animals like that, then you can just only guess what the other countries are doing. So watch Dominion first. Then I would try to find alternatives for the foods that you're craving. Okay, pretty simple too. Now if you want to margarita pizza, maybe you could wait till you get home and get some vegan cheese and cook one up. Or you could use an app called Happy Cow. Happy Cow app and it will show you where the vegan restaurants are near you. I don't know where you live, but pretty well sure there's vegan options in most parts of most developed countries. Or you could head on to the internet, head on to Amazon or one of these order sites and you could order these vegan products from one of these sites. So you can get your chocolate and amazing chocolate. Veggo bars are amazing. They taste like Nutella in a bar. You can find amazing vegan alternatives and cheeses. If you have access to the internet, then you have access to vegan cheese, I would say. It might be a little bit of work to find where they are at the start, but I'm sure you can find these alternatives in the supermarket and after watching Dominion, I'm sure you'll have the motivation to do that. So I think for this situation, this person here feels bad about purchasing the products that they know contribute to animal exploitation and harm. So I think support goes a long way in these situations. It's not like someone who's conscious of the animal abuse they're causing and doesn't care. This person obviously does care a lot. So don't kick yourself too much over these. Like don't make a mistake and then throw everything out and start going full carnival like some people do. I'm not suggesting that's what you're doing. You're just making, there's a few products that you've just fell into eating consuming. Stay on track. You can get back on track very easily. If you fall off the wagon, you can get back on track. And myself, I have the constant motivation of the suffering of the animals and I couldn't dream of consuming animal products. I just, I wouldn't consciously do that. Sometimes I have nightmares. Sometimes I have nightmares that I've actually gone back and eaten animal products, but I wouldn't in this reality do that. There's just no reason to. And I'm so fundamentally disgusted with the industries that harm innocent animals. It'd be like purchasing child porn or doing some other form of exploitation to humans. I just wouldn't do that. Like I just wouldn't knowingly contribute to that type of suffering. But that's because I'm heavily exposed to what happens to animals every day and I actually use my voice to fight for them. So I think what I would do personally is watch Dominion remind yourself of why you went vegan and start to align your actions with those beliefs again and make a commitment to do that in your mind. Make a commitment. So I'm gonna commit to doing what it takes to finding alternatives to these products and it really is easy once you find your feet with all this. So this might be unusual to a lot of long-term vegans who just couldn't dream of doing that, but I mean, we all haven't been vegan for our whole lives, have we? At the start when I first went vegan, I didn't even know about honey and I was like eating products and I didn't check the label properly and see I was making some mistakes at the start as well. And I was checking some of my clothes and realizing, oh my God, like there's animal products in my clothes. And then I realized that my quilt had was a goose down quilt and there was feathers in there. And I'm like, oh my God, what am I, I'm chucking this in the bin. So I even found out that my shoes that I was wearing, my Nike shoes I bought them when I got out of prison had leather trim, okay? And I found that after being a year into animal rights activism, you know, and I was disgusted and I threw them away. There's probably better ways of, you know, getting rid of shoes when they have leather on them. But I was just so disgusted that I had these shoes and I didn't know they had leather on them.  Like don't just, you had a bit of chocolate, you had a bit of pizza and now I'm throwing it all out the window. And I just don't think kicking yourself over it is the best way. I think just acknowledge the mistake and change it. But if you know you're making a mistake and you don't change it, that's a problem too. That's a problem too. So in conclusion, I'd watch Dominion remind yourself of the horrific suffering animals endure on a day-to-day basis. And then ask yourself is a piece of margarita pizza or a bit of, you know, full dairy chocolate worth that when I could be a little bit proactive and find these alternatives on the internet in my area with Happy Cow and then make choices that reflect my belief system towards animals. So, I hope that helped out. I hope that helped anyone else going through that. I don't think we, I think we need to be supportive of new vegans and I think you need to be supportive of yourself as well. So your inner voice matters a lot and you have an inner dialogue with yourself. It's like an internal audience and it tells you when you're doing the right thing or when you're not, it's like a conscious sort of thing.    That's not gonna put you in the best emotional state.  And who wants to live like that? You wanna do things that support good emotional health and that are consistent with a good human being, I'm sure you are, because you obviously are a good human being to reach out to me, a full-blown animal rights activist to tell me that you've been consuming animal products. So you obviously care about this a lot and you are searching for advice and you probably don't have a support network around you which I do, I have a support network and I'm, so from my perspective, I couldn't imagine doing that but from your perspective, it probably looks a lot different. So I just wanna say that you have our full support and we hope you get back on track and if you wanted another level of support, you could even try doing a vegan challenge again. So you can go to the link in my bio in my Instagram there or in my YouTube channel in the description is a link to challenge 22 and you could just do a vegan challenge to refresh yourself, you've got a community on there, support network, they've got plant-based doctors and dieticians in there and you just get back into it, do it as a challenge and then obviously veganism's not a challenge, it's an ethical principle you adhere to for life. So after the vegan challenge, you feel refreshed, you feel emotionally more consistent and there's no conflict going on and then you can go on and they probably will even help you find these vegan alternatives in your area too. So boom, problem solved, you've watched a minion, you've realized, wow, this is really serious and now I'm going to align my actions with my morals once again.  If you've got some type of question that you want me to answer in a live stream like this, I'll try to get to them, I can't promise you but you might be lucky and I might find it and be able to answer it just as I have with this individual and yeah, keep those love hearts flowing for her and I believe in you and let's all be a supportive group of vegans so you can help people make more ethical choices. All right, I'll see you all in the next video, peace.


Hello and welcome to Dataversity Talks, a podcast where we discuss with industry leaders and experts how they have built their careers around data. I'm your host, Shannon Kemp, and today we're talking to Dora Bousias, the Senior Director of Data Strategy and Architecture at Striker. With a robust catalog of courses offered on demand and industry-leading live online sessions throughout the year, the Dataversity Training Center is your launchpad for career success. Browse the complete catalog at training.dataversity.net and use code DBtalks for 20% off your purchase. Hello and welcome. My name is Shannon Kemp, and I'm the Chief Digital Officer at Dataversity. And this is My Career in Data, a Dataversity Talks podcast dedicated to learning from those who have careers in data management to understand how they got there and to be talking with people who make those careers a little bit easier. To keep up to date in the latest in data management education, go to Dataversity.net forward slash subscribe. And today we are joined by Dora Bousias, the Senior Director of Data Strategy and Architecture at Striker. And normally this is where a podcast host would read a short bio of the guest, but in this podcast, your bio is what we're here to talk about. Dora, hello and welcome. Hi Shannon, thank you for having me. I'm so excited to be here and having this chat with you today. I'm so excited you could join us today. I really appreciate it. A long time friend of Dataversity. We just love you and really excited to hear more and learn more about your career path. So tell me, so you're the Senior Director of Data Strategy and Architecture at Striker. So what does that mean and what is it you do. Okay, yeah, thank you. Thank you for the question. So Striker just to put a little bit of perspective it's in healthcare it's a medical technology company we're actually the leader in the space. So that means the company designs manufacturers commercializes you know medical devices medical equipment. So my role is definitely very close to data strategy and architecture we're saying it's really driving data strategy and architecture for the company at the global level. So a lot of this focuses on the, the governance the MDM the stewardship the quality the data information architecture of things I'm, you know, and, and set up this this new function from the ground up for the company with my peer on the business side. We're co accountable for this program on the architecture side it's architecture for, you know, across domains across commercial divisions across regions across different other functions. And it's the architecture for anything from the terms actual side of things all the way to analytics. And it's an area that I'm really very, very passionate about. Now, we're talking about data, and obviously some of the technology aspects come into it but I always, you know, Shannon for the longest time I always say and I believe this and I'll leave my every day like this and I tried to get my team to think the same way. I'm a business person first and foremost. So what I do is really how do I bring the best practices around data and data management and architecture into the organization. So that I can help the patients really, and our customers, right, do better by helping my organization be a healthy organization, but better quality. Well, we've got most best quality products out there but I'm saying the products out there help the patients, you know what our business strategic objectives, so really always driving with what our business objectives first and foremost and that's why I think I call myself as a business leader first how can I do better there and then pull in anything around data and technology that I can bring to the table, myself, my team, you know the function. So, how did you then come to create this role you said you created it, and you have a business partner on the business side so where do you sit. I've actually been in my entire career, which is rounding it up to about 30 years about 20, almost 28 years now. I've always studied in it, but again, I've also because I've had enterprise architectural roles for probably the last 17 to 2017 1820 years. I don't know time time goes by fast right. I've always been in roles that that have enterprise perspective and enterprise accountability has been doing enterprise architecture always going the deepest in data. And so, I've always felt a bit of an IT it's almost like having a leg in IT and a leg in the business, especially because I'm always trying to drive with, what is this going for my business. What business goal is this going to help how can I help progress this business objective better how can I make this better for the customer or the patient or the organization as a business that needs to thrive right not just survive. So, strike like so many other companies has grown in silo so from the data perspective of things, how do we look at things across at the enterprise level, drive the synergies, obviously, data governance and trying to get to speak the same language on many things like, you know, what is a product what is a customer right where are the different KPIs, you need to bring the different silo teams together so how do we use best practices in this data management world. So, how do we go about doing that, bringing that expertise in and I've been with Striker about six and a half years now, wonderful company. Bringing that expertise really just putting the case together and say hey, here's where we can do a better, you know, better manage it. I mean, at the enterprise level drive those synergies get to speaking the link the same language common language that can help drive additional efficiencies, or can help really with new revenue streams by monetizing our data rate I mean everything around this again, in my mind typically is by management, you know, the data organization. How can I help grow my top line, because I am helping to provide a better customer experience for example, which would attract or retain customers or bringing a new revenue stream right, or how can I perhaps cut down costs by bringing in operational efficiencies streamline some processes, not having to reinvent and do the same thing data quality for example over and over again. Or how can I look at data and help that to mitigate risk be proactive about it save comma organization right so bringing a lot of that how do I drive those synergies and enterprise level kind of, you know, put the strategy together, obviously got the executive buy in. But it is very important that this is not just it driven, I look at this thing to be successful in any case, as a very close partnership between the business and technical teams. What this structure did is that this global level function, myself and my, my business partner that sits in the business, and her title is her title is senior director of business data governance, we are co accountable for driving this organization, the organization so the benefit that will come from this so we set it up at the enterprise level and you know driving and executing and seeing the outcomes from from doing this. It's a great model. Thank you. Yeah. I'm just curious. Did you. How do you find the business opportunities, whether to grow revenue or to drive efficiencies. Is it through that partnership or you know are you sitting in on executive meetings or, you know, how are you finding those opportunities where these are. Great question. So it's really being very intentional about looking at it so even, even if something data management has to do with bringing out the right technology, the right technology is, it has to enable some very specific business capabilities. And those are the business capabilities that we will focus on because it will help a very specific business problem that we're trying to solve for, or, you know, business objective that we have so the opportunities are all around us. There is so much really that we can do in our organizations and Shannon with like I said almost 28. I'm typically rounding it up to almost 30 years right now being exposed to a lot of different verticals right of working finance and insurance a bit in retail and healthcare medical technology here. I'm saying this because I'm seeing it across verticals of experience it right the opportunities are there and we do have the opportunity to better manage our data to really get more out of it right so prioritizing actually I think it's a harder thing to do versus finding the opportunities. There's a lot of opportunities I think is how to prioritize what we focus on being very close partner with my business counterpart helps but you know, I always say to really successfully understand and get value out of implementing a very intentional and thoughtful data strategy, it's not one person or two people or one team, right. So we really that partnership really understanding, you know, what are the strategic what is the business strategy, what are very specific strategic business goals. Okay, so taking that. How does that with that connect with the data strategy. How do we, you know, stop prioritizing the demand there seeing what is the biggest impact I mean we have different frameworks that we've developed us to. Okay, all of these areas could be areas that we can do better. We did develop framework that looks at, for example, you know, what, what is the risk, how is he helping us from a financial perspective from a risk perspective from an operational efficiencies perspective right. And so we apply that, but also initially we even interviewed across the organization really trying to understand, okay, we kind of know we think we know but let's just put a little bit more structure on this so we actually did interview across regions and functions and say, Okay, what are your biggest problems that are related to data, especially master data, because we started focusing its multi year roadmap and a journey but we started focusing on very specific data domains, and even within those data domains we prioritize, but we kind of knew the issues, but we did try and just hear from the organization across the organization. Why are your biggest problems. The biggest problems in terms of what gets delayed or what gets what it's broken, what can become even better from a business efficiency or effectiveness or opportunities. So we took all of that was synthesized it we looked at it. We connected to our bigger business strategic objectives we put a plan together. We agreed this is what we're going to focus on. And that is important to do actually because then, as a lot of demand comes from across this global strikers of 17 plus billion dollar organization it's a large organization right 46,000 people. So having a very well known and intentional roadmap in terms also of not not just the processes and the tools, but what business problems are we going to solve. What did we focus on to solve this particular business problems. That helps us because the demand is always coming. So we're staying true to, you know, we've done the work. We looked at all the issues. These are the highest ones in terms of the business impact. We're staying true to that. Of course, sometimes things to come that we might need to, you know, reassess and pivot can just be locked without really taking into consideration the situation at the time. But that's typically how we do it and it's a conversation with the business and the technology teams really to because from there you learn a lot about hey, there is an opportunity with a business here that process keeps breaking for example because of the data quality issue. I'm making it out, but I mean that could be a, you know, I think that's very usual thing that we see and it's an education over not over an area that you know we can we can improve on. I love it when you mentioned, you know, you've been sitting in it for a while and you have quite a bit of experiences and enterprise architect, but so let's back it up then a little bit.  What was that dream what was that original dream. Not quite, I didn't know. I didn't know anything about data. Folks may not know I was actually born and raised in Greece. And, you know, I was going to high school it was actually a brand new model of a high school setup. And I pretty much had to make up my mind as a junior in the last senior year of high school. What would I focus on and at that point you know I used to love reading and writing. And I always thought, you know, I want to go into literature want to be a professor of reading and writing literature and things like that and that's Greek right because I like I said I was, I was born and raised in Greece. But it just so happened I also took this basic basic the programming language which I liked. And to be honest, Shannon, the decision. It was a very practical decision I said, Okay, at that time there's about 40,000 people waiting to be hired on, you know, to be a professor back then there was not too many private schools colleges it was mostly you know state colleges where the situation is different. So it was really very practical decision saying, by the time I go through the right schooling and able to get a job like that will be a lot more people waiting to be hired. I love this but I also want to be able to make a living. I like this basic programming this is different. I really think this will be the profession of the future. So, you know, I made a decision on that point to focus more take more courses like that. The last year of high school and then after that, I, yeah, I made a decision to come to the United States. I have two siblings that were already here to study computers, the software side of things. The schools were not as good in Greece at the time so I came here plus I have my siblings here. So, yeah, my first degree was an associates in data processing. That was my very first degree. Wow, that's amazing so you say your first degree how many degrees do. So it's just from this technical school in data processing was very much computer classes I said this is crashing the surface. So then I went to Quinnipiac in Connecticut I got my bachelor's in computer science. Actually with the bachelor's I had to do an internship, a three month internship to even be able to get the degree in hand. And I did that but that internship turned out into full time job offer, which I accepted. And that's how I started really being an IT. A year later I went back a year later I went back and I did my MBA. In terms of formal, you know, academics. I never really stopped learning. I mean to the day I think I'm going to keep on learning I'm very curious inquisitive you know after on a couple of certifications after that but the most formal in terms of degrees was was those three. But about that time is when I started in IT and really I started as a mainframe cobalt programmer. I was a cobalt and JCL and a sampler and working on IMS and DP2 databases are learning about hierarchical and relational databases on the mainframe. You know how I ended up with enterprise architecture to your point. Because I always want to keep on growing and learning. I actually, although I was doing mainframe and writing cobalt programming and JCL and CICS during the day in the evenings I would teach myself new skills and back then in the 1990s I basically taught me the entire thing Microsoft Office suite, including access which I got Microsoft certified back then, but access is a database right back then. You have the database you have a little bit of programming the reporting all of that. So that got me out of the mainframe I got into rapid application development team as it was called the RAT team. And more software programming. Fast forward the one thing that I realized. I don't know how I don't know why, but even when I was doing mainframe you know cobalt work I realized that at the end of the day. When I was doing when I was part of the cobalt team we were producing a lot of the financials for the company, which was a retailer. I realized we're looking at these reports, we're creating these reports financials that we're going to the CFO of the organization and other CXOs of the organization, looking at these things so I realized. Okay, this is data, we're looking at this like our decisions have been based on this so it's very important that this is good because, as we say, if I look at garbage garbage and garbage out. And being also software programmer you know I had the opportunity to actually do everything from gathering requirements to designing to building to training like I even as part of the RAT team I build a whole platform that basically was kind of like. Yeah, a whole platform for the loss prevention department back then everything from the day to day to the actual functional capabilities to because it was its own silo to you know they chart components of that department.  So I was really passionate about is the data I'm looking at good. And am I building this in a way that is not going to break that it's going to sustain like how good is the architecture. And I've always looked at somehow you know okay how solid is this what else is impacted what's going to break. And throughout the years ended up getting into enterprise architectural roles like I said for the past 10 or no closer 20 years now I've been in EA type of functions, which is important because I've always been driving without enterprise mindset be data technology be business processes and capabilities. What I'm doing here, who else will be impacted downstream upstream. How do I design this to be a very solid foundation that as new demands come. I don't think flex can scale. And no by the way, what I'm looking at what runs through those finds that data. Again, garbage and garbage out so how do I make sure that it's really good data. And having worked for financial services company when the crisis happened. We had to figure out everything that's when I got deeper into the whole MDM and data governance and data and information architecture. And that's the quality aspects of it. A couple of things here. So what made you decide to get an MBA what was your focus for your MBA. Thank you for the question. I think for me, it was. What I'm looking at these executives are based in the decisions on they're making business decision. So for me it was like okay this is great all the technical stuff. But what are we doing that for. I, you know we're not building the system just for the sake of the system it actually is doing something for the business. Okay, I don't know it was just in my mind, it was almost like, I want to combine the technical expertise with understanding more about the business so how can I use this technical expertise as a tool to help my business go forward so it wasn't that was just a thought. I don't recall like a particular thing that triggered other than just that thought. We're doing this, these executives are looking even as simple as these financial reports, making decisions. So there's a business usage for this. How can I learn more about the business surrounding a better business. So that's what really triggered me to go morning to get an MBA versus a master in computer science for example. So something that I continue to drive with this is why even when we start I said I think of myself as a business leader first and foremost.  That's cool of thought. Right. And interestingly, you know, I say this, even to my team when we're talking about what we focus on. I always say, okay, what are the technical skills. What is the functional and business acumen side of things what can we get better there. And also by the way also communication, we can forget about communication and leadership behaviors to me those are the three buckets that I always for myself but my team the people they work with or or I mentor you know I always look at this at what is the technical skills if this is the area what is the functional business acumen side of things that we want to focus and develop on and then even though we're technical it or data you know the communication and working with people and the leadership behaviors are important too. They absolutely agree and very interesting I love that path and mindset. I think it's one of, as you mentioned curiosity. I'm trying to hear, and just natural desire to keep learning, which is, you know, very impressive. Visit dataversity.net and expand your knowledge with thousands of articles and blogs written by industry experts, plus free live and on demand webinars covering the complete data management spectrum. While you're there, subscribe to the weekly newsletter. So you'll never miss a beat. So, having been in data for so long, then as being having it being a huge part of huge focus of your career. What is your definition of data. Yeah, what an interesting question. And I forgot to say by the way I spoke about software programming but I mean I did go deeper in data data so I've done data engineering data modeling databases I was a DPA was a data modeler. I, you know, was a data developer all of that stuff. What is my definition of data. I haven't even thought about it but for me. So for me is, how do I, how do I look at this thing that we call data the bits and the bytes how do I put it in context to help me really decide what should I focus on next right it's an interpretation of things that what they are but but, and I go into data, not to get to technical here, and I know not everybody possibly thinks of it that way right, but data and information right so for me data, it's the very, you know, how do we represent what things are, but then I tend to think of it, putting in a business context and that's when I start speaking about information and information architecture of my data architecture data management, right. So, I don't know I haven't really thought about it interestingly now, but that's how I think of it. It's the representation of what things are and what they mean and how can that help me, helping form or drive my decision for the next thing to do. I like it. And so, do you see the importance of data management and the number of jobs working with data increasing or decreasing over the next 10 years and why. I think that we're at a, we're at a point where the jobs will probably increase and probably a little bit different to, because with machine learning and AI is doing more and more with it in terms of processing a lot of different data. There may have been jobs that people were doing that now I will pick up but I think more need for people that can really not only work with data the technical side of things, but can also communicate with folks that are not data folks or technical folks. What is important to do what we do in the data management world and what does this mean how does that help the business go ahead. So if they were going to see a lot more of those roles as well. It's almost like translators you know business, business data translators if you will right that just puts it into context, in addition to the more technical roles right. But you know with AI machine learning taking off even more and processing not only large amounts of data but just doing things and automating things that people had to do before. You may see a little bit less of those types of roles and more of the types of roles that just need to bring a little bit more of that of that context and that human side of things where we're looking at something we understand it, and we translate and what it means to how we're using it. But I certainly think that this is a field that will continue to be very, very relevant very current and very critical to the health of our businesses and really our everyday life because everything we do right. I mean, it's, I always, I typically think and say that data is the lifeblood of the organization but if you think about it even about personal lives, we can't do anything without the data that we're looking at on our phones so that we hear from other people, I mean it's all around us. It's part of life. Absolutely. So, what advice then would you give to people looking to get into a career in data management. I would say it's a, it's a great field to be in. I, the advice that I would give is there's a lot of different areas that you could focus on. So figure out what it is that you like focus on that and get really good at it I always believe in knowing your craft. You know, you may know a lot of different things but what are you known for so in the data world do you want to go more into you know the data quality aspects and the data engineering aspects the data visualization aspects.  I would say, get really good at that know your craft, but in addition to that, please be intentional about understanding the business you're in, and how you can use those technical skills and that data to help progress the business. And, oh, by the way, we cannot really do that successfully without getting really good at communicating about it. So my advice would be, figure out which area you're more passionate and passionate about, get good at it. But don't forget learning the business, speaking the business functional, don't speak in technical terms, even if you're doing data engineering, whatever you're doing when you're speaking about it, speak about it in business terms, which is why you, we also have to get really good at communication. But I think there is a great future in this space, more so than ever before in my humble view. I totally agree and it's for somebody who's not comfortable with communication how do they get better what are some resources that you found that are helpful. I say practice is probably the most critical. Well, obviously, take communication courses and communication is pretty vague, right, depending on what you want to do. Maybe it is about storytelling, right, maybe it is about presentation. Maybe it is about influencing, right, depending on the role. So again, how do we deconstruct that problem, figure out specifically what it is that we need to focus. So look for, look for training courses. So that's one thing, but then in my mind, the best results come from combining the, the learning the academic or just learning theory, the theory with the practice. So then experience it as much as you can practice it as much as you can. So that could mean that, you know, find groups that you can be part of that you put yourself into those uncomfortable situations. So practicing those communication skills that you want to get better at. You know, there's, there's groups that people. It could be things like and I'm not talking about toast masters you can do that but I'm talking for example, in your local, maybe there's a data management group, maybe there is a, you know, IT group, whatever it is, right. Go to conferences, actually practice the skills that you're learning theoretically. Speak to your manager, ask for opportunities that help you stretch in the areas that you're most comfortable with, because not only are you going to get better when you practice it, you're also going to show the initiative that you're getting out of the comfort zone when you get out of the comfort zone you're growing new opportunities open up it's actually good for your career. Right.  So the idea could be practice it, record yourself and watch it. And this is something that I learned from I was part of a leadership training program once a week long leadership program that I did with G, G, Carltonville, New York for those that know about this. And one of the biggest takeaways for me as part of this leadership program was an exercise that I had us do where they recorded us. And then we watched the recording. Now it was something around communication. And I was trying my best to, to, to get better specific things I was working on. And then when I watched the recording back and watch myself for the exercise, I could see, Oh, wow, how it is in my head, it's not how it comes across. So from there, I think a good tool is for those things that we want to try, you know, practice it, try it, but then, yeah, for something big like that, I do it sometimes. I practice it, I record myself then I watch it and then I try it again, and I try it again because it's different when you observe it from outside of you will versus in our own head, we don't always pick up on all things. That's a very good advice. And to kind of summarize so find your passion, hone that passion to a skill that you're very good at, and then step a little bit out of your comfort zone and get a little uncomfortable and learn something new and learn that soft skill of communication. If that's a, if that's not something that comes naturally. You know, I would also say, even if we are going to communication I always believe and there's always room to get better. So even if you think you're good at it, I would say keep on trying to get better, because every situation is so dynamic with communication every person that we speak with every instance that we speak with that person depending on the situation you know there's always a lot of variability there. And I would say underlying all of that be very intentional and thoughtful about it. You know, it's not just going to happen. So what I've learned throughout my career. Everything that I've done, it didn't just happen. I had to work for it. But the other thing that I've also learned is that there is no big bank things happening every little thing that I've done or that I've stretched that I went over.  So, do you really admire that about you. You know, listening to your curiosity is impressive, your desire to learn. I have this quote from Brené Brown that you know I'm here to get it right, not to be right. You know, and I think you emulate that so well you're so curious about the business and wanting to help it succeed and it's just all about that goal. And through that you've helped yourself and become really successful in what you do. It's really impressive. Thank you Shannon I love that quote by the way I love that quote I think curiosity being inquisitive asking questions curious questions. I think no one knows everything I think I'm learning right so I'm very intentional about being curious, I would say, being consistent and resilient about what happened overnight and I think, even with the younger generations I'm working, you know, my kids for example then 20s and and I know I'm like, you know, generalizing right now but I think there's some truth to it with the younger generations were more about gratification right so there is a lot of value to really just kind of go through the process like I said it doesn't happen overnight but you got to keep consistent. I'm not just reminding me I was listening to Simon scenic, a little snippet on LinkedIn the other day when he was saying about something about.  You don't see a difference we come back third you don't see a difference but if you consistently keep at it 3060 90 days later all of a sudden what happened you see the change. So, so even in our data management world, especially because and you and I chatted about it a little bit earlier right. In the role, like in my role, I drive a lot of transformation, you know, getting folks that have been used to working in silo to look at this to say how do we work together that if I do something here or anyone that works in master data management for example, right, where you got to get people to work together across lines across teams, right. If I do something here, I'm impacting somebody else right. So, so you know that doesn't driving that change of mindset habits every day. It takes resilience. It takes consistency. Right. It takes curiosity to because by being curious, you ask you learn, well, what is it really that is that this person that you're talking from this function on that region versus the other person from the other function the other team the other region. Right. It's the same problem that I'm trying to solve but how I communicate to this team versus that team in a way that can understand for me to be able to do that. I need to be curious to understand what it is that they do every day what is their function do we're all teams in the same company you know but you know this team does it a little bit different than the other. So, this may be an operations team, this may be a finance team and yet they're working with the same data. Right. So how do I get them to work together so that curiosity, asking the questions been consistent being resilient about it. I think, I think those are are very critical to lasting success really. Again, great advice and again I think you emulate those things so well it's really impressive. Thank you, Shannon, I appreciate that. Thank you. Well, Dora, well, thank you so much for taking the time to chat with us today. I really appreciate it's been fascinating. I love learning more about you and, and getting an opportunity and excuse to chat. Yes, I am honored to be here. Thank you so much for having me on and so great to see you. And hopefully our conversation is, it's helpful to some folks out there. Thank you and thanks to all of our listeners out there. If you'd like to keep up to date in the latest podcast and the latest in data management education may go to dataversity.net forward slash subscribe until next time. Thank you for listening to Dataversity Talks brought to you by Dataversity. Subscribe to our newsletter for podcast updates and information about our free educational articles blogs and webinars at dataversity.net forward slash subscribe.


Welcome to the drum history podcast. I'm your host Bart van der Zee and today is all about GMS drums I'm joined by Rob Mazzella and Tony Galino Rob and Tony. How are you guys? Hey, how you doing Bart? We're good. Good Bart How are you man? Good? Thanks for being here. So, uh GMS is a drum brand that I have just always I've never actually played a drum set or a snare, but I've seen GMS Everywhere, I mean very famous bands. It's just Regarded as one of like the best drum brands in the world and it's very I feel like you guys are kind of want to kind of an early Boutique drum brand like that that boutique term sort of blew up obviously in the you know 2000s, but you guys been doing it for a long time over 30 years. So Why don't we go back to the beginning and Rob, why don't you take it away? All right In the beginning we started in 1987 and I it was it was really kind of innocent and We had both Tony and I had Mutual friend who owned a drum store in Long Island in Queens called the Long Island drum center and his name is Tony Fabiano and What my history was working on some I was a machinist by trade and I was I was Making some parts for drums and I always brought them into the store And I would show Tony Fabiano these parts and he always told me he said you got to meet this guy Tony Galino because he works on drums and I never really the thought never crossed my mind of to what this was gonna wind up being It was just an innocent, you know Wow, I'd like to meet this guy and then one day we were both in the store and Tony Fabiano introduced us and We just hit it off and I wound up going over Tony's house and he said he had some plans on on Some parts he wanted made and and I looked at it and he as he's talking I'm like this could be kind of fun and you know, it's not a matter of just making some parts and putting a drum together I said this could be a business actually and We just started doing it and then One thing led to another and then Tony Fabiano actually sold the first drum for us and Wow, we didn't really even realize that there was a market out there was more for fun and That's the way it started. So that's fascinating. So it was a different you said that was in the 80s, right? Yeah, 1987 was a year. Okay. So that was obviously a different time for drums. Were you guys making kind of like? Similar kits that you've always made or where I mean that was like power toms and double bass and hair metal Well, it was typical of the era, you know deep toms, you know, the bass drums were getting longer. Oh god, don't get me started but You know It was yeah, it was the time. I mean snare drums too.   Yeah, seems pretty obvious now, but so GMS. I get the Galino Mazzella, what is the S? What does GMS stand for? Why don't you tell us that? Well, there was there was an S and He was actually my neighbor he was older, you know, he was probably like my father's age, you know But he was a drummer like in the day, you know in the 30s or 40s or whatever and You know, he was He was an interesting character, but you know, he was he was involved kind of in the beginning Okay, but that's a that's a long time ago. Now you guys Like I think I started noticing GMS drums. I was a kid. I was born in 90, but So I started noticing you guys though like in the music videos for a lot of like Like I guess you would call them 90s bands like STP. Yeah, so so you guys had some serious Artists on your roster. How did you go about getting these people? I mean you from starting out with, you know, pretty modest Beginnings, how did it grow? That kind of grew organically And really I think one of the big there were a couple big catalysts actually There was an association we had one of our first artists was a guy named Mark Zander out in In California and he had who's at a band called fates warning but he also owned a rehearsal studio called bills place and Stone Table Pilots was rehearsing at bills place and they played on Mark's drums and Eric He loved them and he set up his first meeting with us on on their first tour And they were in New York and he took the train out to Long Island from New York City and we've been friends ever since and That's one of the relationships that you know, I guess it's one of our longest You know so another thing that kind of springboarded us into artists and Kind of more worldwide recognition was around. I think it was 1990 we We formed an association and a business partnership with Pistey symbols the Pistey symbol company and they started Distributing us Worldwide really so that really blew us up and and gave us a lot of Worldwide attention. How does that work? How does Pistey help distribute with a drum? So would it just be like if if a store carries Pistey, then they likely will then carry GMS or I've never heard of that It's it was a little complicated in some ways but in other ways it was again kind of innocent the guy who was running Pistey at the time was Eric Pistey or still is but Eric saw something in us That was unique and that bar you got to understand the time what we were doing was unique it wasn't what it is today and You had you had companies like your Ludwigs and pearls and Tamas and They were all over the place, but they were very stock and there was nothing To set them apart from besides each other and when we came in we was we were doing things like matching Custom colors and custom sizes and it was very exciting and Pistey saw what we were doing We got through to Eric through some one of his actual employees saw us and and recommended it and we met and It was just kind of happened real quick. He saw what we were doing He says, you know, I'd like to be part of this and and that's how that started man. That's interesting. I feel like That's what it takes is is getting That little extra help from somebody else You know what I mean to just get that that jump forward and and I think drums are really The word of mouth goes a long way because I mean you guys Obviously to this day have a very big roster of drummers who who appreciate the quality of everything you do So I think people see that and go, you know, this is apparent and I your snares are of note I feel like a lot of people really like your snare drums as well So it's just a tension to detail, you know, I always say it's not rocket science. Yeah, they work. Yeah Yeah, very quality stuff I know I've I've picked up and held a couple GMS snares at various stores and It just feels like very high quality stuff So, okay, so you start in the 80s you go through the 90s Obviously a lot of people are playing them people seen stone temple pilots, you know on on MTV using GMS drums That's gotta be a huge boost in sales Did you guys get overwhelmed at that phase at all or what's your what's your shop like? Why don't you tell us about that like how is the production line? How does all that work? well that It did it blew up real fast and when we first started we both kind of quit our jobs and jumped into it and We started in a small shop with you know, one or two guys helping us and Through the Pisces connection it just kind of snowballed because now we go from a small shop getting a couple orders here and there to a whole sales team going out and and selling the product for us and They were able to make associations with stores and So it blew up real fast and we went from a small shop in Hicksville Long Island to a larger shop in Farmingdale and that's that's the shop We had for the longest time. How many employees do you guys have? I mean these are your hand-making all of these drums right like each drum set is put together by by a person here in Long Island, right? Yeah, so at the time Let's I guess to make it relevant to as opposed to what it is now But at the time like in the mid 90s when you know, I would say that was was a peak I would say we have about eight or nine employees So and we were putting out one or two kits a day. So it was a good it was a good flow. Wow. Yeah Which I mean like it's so funny to think compared to like, you know pearl or something like that's the difference I think with it with a company like you where one or two kits a day They're they're beautifully handcrafted put together drum sets Versus a company that's spitting out thousands a day. So I think that's what the attention to details What people noticed like Tony was saying now, do you guys make your shells or what what do you use for shells? No, we don't we've always used Keller. Oh nice. Okay shells, you know because to gear up to make your shells You know, it's a multi-million dollar. Yeah endeavor. Yeah And you know, why? Because you might as well get someone who knows what they're doing who makes a quality product You know, even at that time I have to believe the only people that were making Their own shells were the Asian companies. Yeah, the Japanese companies You know the pearls the Tamas and things like that and the Yamaha's and who even I don't even really know for sure Yeah, but any of the the smaller American guys, you know, everybody was using Keller There was another company called Jasper here at a business, you know So you didn't have a lot of choices really unless you wanted to make your own but you know, I'm diverting here Yes, you know, we don't make our own shells. No, and I think It's interesting because so I had Justin Owen on we did an episode about Keller shells a while back And and I just think that Keller I don't want to say it got a bad reputation Because I think that there was that such a boom of like there was all these boutique drum sets that came out in the mid 2000s and I bought one I have one not gonna name a brand but it's Keller shells and it sounds amazing and Keller Makes great stuff. Yeah, you're fantastic. You know, they did get a bad rap because everybody, you know But it's and leave that to the drum for yeah, I mean, you know once that came about every so Just another set of killer shells. I'll stop You know, what people just don't know what they're talking about, right? But if you let me Elaborate on what Tony said and he's cut and he's right in a way. It became a thing where There was articles of separation the drum business turned into a Lot of people now doing what we started doing when we started doing it there weren't a lot of people That were doing Making custom drums, but through Keller I think what Keller did in a way They went into a distribution of their shells which made it available to more people Well, we first started doing it. We had to deal with Keller We had certain amount of quantity we had a buy We had so it was there was a hurdle to get over to actually doing what we did But when Keller started distributing their cell shells through small Companies where people could just buy one Then you started seeing a lot of people become drum companies So now all of a sudden they were it went from just one or two or three or four to Dozens to hundreds which I believe today that probably are so yeah if that helped with a little of the history of That no it absolutely does because I know I had a misconception With Keller about it being like Keller spits out Million of the same drum shell, but I didn't realize that no they actually like like let's say I think it was gratch or at some point They want the shell to be like this with this man applies and this like their custom shells being made From Keller so you can get your own mold and I've bought through one of the websites like a Keller shell And I put together my own snare and it was not If if I saw him with the snare that I built I wouldn't have bought it if that makes sense I would have been like well that looks cheap and crappy so Yeah, and and I think people can go listen to that episode, but it's funny because you said like the like Jasper went out of business It's a tough business, but I know Keller. I didn't really realize that they make Tons of stuff. They make like building stuff. He said they made like platform shoes I mean they make like everything so well, it's a big company Yeah, they got five divisions Exactly Wow Anywho this isn't about Kelly, but I know but would you guys say that all right? So let's take just kind of a little bit about the the climate when you started with other custom drum builders like you said there was There was Tama there was Pearl there was Ludwig Who else was doing sort of what you guys did because it had to be just a if if anyone a couple other Companies well basically for if you really think about was us noble and Cooley Joe Montaneri and Billy a pork pie. Okay Yeah, those are some great. That's great company. We and and we all Started about the same time. No one Cooley was earlier Sure, because I remember that I remember when I was starting to just fool around with stuff I took notice of them Montaneri was doing a little early, but us and Billy over at pork pie was exact same time Yeah, cuz I it's funny you said it cuz I also equate like like pork pie I equate him to seem like old Primus music videos Exactly yeah herb yeah So so it was a really neat time I think obviously it seems like that was a cool Moment in time for you guys are a part of something special, you know, it's you know, it's not like that anymore We were all very friendly, you know I yeah, it's still to this day, you know We you know, I I called I called J. J. I'll call J. Jones over it. No J I'm in a bind. You have like a 16 by 16 shell and he'll send it to me, you know, it's like that But that's just that core.  They called him the core for was the the players anyway It was just you know still to this day. I have great relationships with all those people That's great and part of it might be too that it was pre social media pre cell phone. It was pre it was all It's a little bit more It was just different, you know, it's a totally different world. Where would your main market be? I mean, do you distribute and sell like Globally or do you find that the America is pretty much your biggest point of you know drummers? It's hard to say. I guess you would yes America is our biggest core. We've had a lot of sales in Europe Canada so it's those were I think our biggest Markets, you know, we had a we have we still have a distributor in Switzerland who sells a lot of stuff sticks music Lionel, he sells a lot of stuff for us still to this day. So it's you know, it's I would say those are our major markets. Cool.  The that that section of the business has changed tremendously and it was a time where where that's all we did was sell directly to stores But that has flip-flop Tremendously today. I would say our sales are direct. Okay. So if somebody calls us and They want to order a kit. That's the way we handle it on a custom Per order basis. Nice. That's awesome I feel like the whole world has kind of changed as all of the big box stores are Struggling across the world. So yeah, I'm sure that's That's just the way it goes The music business has changed and you know, we were very fortunate to hit it when we did and I would say that was the last Of the of the heyday of the drum business. It was a lot. It was very exciting time there was a there was a lot of great things going on and I think it's all changed today because I think the musician has changed today when we used to make drums We did we actually did a lot of concert snare drums for orchestras. It was that was a business and that was that was it I guess a prideful thing to be an orchestral percussionist and it was a it was a job, you know, they they they really wanted to be a Drummer, yeah, and that's changed now because I don't really see that anymore, you know where it's a career, huh? That's interesting. I wouldn't and I wouldn't really think of that But you know, I know with a lot of drum companies That's something that I'm not involved in that world and I sometimes forget that it's like, oh, yeah That's a massive part of the drum industry even marching something. I was never I didn't go that route growing up I mean god, of course, that's a huge Source of revenue for a lot of companies. So yeah, that's that's interesting that that that you're not seeing as much of that now It is well, not anymore, you know, it's You know, you have to be You got to get you got to be lucky, you know, I mean, but that's always that's always been but now more than ever You got to be lucky to have a gig, you know, I Can't tell you how many people I know I mean like guys who are really fine players Looking for gigs because they're not out there.  I'll stop give me a break because there's everybody's a session drummer now Because they everybody can record at home. You know what I'm talking about as much as we love the technology It's actually destroyed the business. Yeah, I can speak to that a little bit from a from a Obviously from a drummer standpoint, but mainly from working as an audio engineer for my day job Oh, yeah, it's just made it absolutely and honestly, too The big thing that I've noticed is a lot of voiceover talent, which this isn't even drum related But I think it's interesting a lot of voiceover talent. Absolutely. They can record themselves at home So the need to go and then they use these things called like voices one two three Where you pay 200 bucks you call in you connect to them They're at home. They record the voice over which is for your companies, you know explainer video So that business has gone away Well drummers can everyone can track at home. It's just different. Yeah, I have a good friend who had three main rooms In New York City, you know, I mean large ones. He had one of the old hit factories and He he always he po he pointed to 9-11. He says after 9-11 and I think it's just coincidental. He says, you know The bottom fell out. It just fell out. He says he went from like, you know a two million dollar a year He goes to 700,000. He goes and then it was gone. Well, look in New York. What's left? Are there it was what's left, you know avatars now part of part of Berkeley, right? I mean there there are no there are very little very few studios in one of you know in what was a music capital Yeah, really so that goes that goes to the to the point of like why we were making the Instruments that we did because we kind of felt that we were making them for the people who wanted the the quality to be above what the what the The the general brands were doing and that's what separated us at the time where the our sound quality was better Our construction was better So the choices of colors and sizes Were tailored to the player. So that was a different thing than just Just kind of mass producing things. Yeah, that's interesting. So what in the world of boutique drums? What does make you guys stand out which obviously has been probably one of the factors that's made you be Be able to stay alive for so long. What makes gms different? I think it was the the custom factor the the fact that These drums turned out to be a sum of the parts that made them sound so good and look so good And we did a lot of things that were Not done at the time like I remember we were starting to spray lacquers and Use different kinds of paints and finishes and we were able to spray chrome flakes with Opaque color or translucent colors over them So they would really pop and shine and it really I remember being one of the first companies out there that was doing that But also I think one of the the things that stands out to me tone and you could you could jump in if you want The revolution snare drum was something else. It was something that nobody's ever done before and It was a wooden wood shell And we sprayed metal inside it and that metal was either brass a bronze We had a steel Copper aluminum. Yeah. Yep copper aluminum But we have these different metals that we were able to spray inside and it gave each one a different sound Hmm, man, that's it was called a revolution snare drum. That's fascinating man. So you would just get like Liquified metal basically then and just apply it like that like a paint Well, it's a process, you know, it's a whole process. It's actually powdered and You know, it has you have to put it in a vehicle to actually Get it on I mean there it's it's pretty wild because it actually is metal, you know When you come down to when you first sprayed it looks like hell, you know It looks like camouflage paint or something but you have to sand it and scrape it and buff it and And then it's it's metal. It's cold to the touch the whole bit man, so clearly you guys do some things to You know Innovate does anyone else did some did anyone else kind of steal your idea or are you the only people to really do that? I I haven't seen it. I don't think anybody's figured it out Until this well, I've seen I've seen over the years that some people try to take an actual piece of metal Like a sheet of metal and put it inside to give it a different reflective sound But nobody's ever sprayed it and made it a part of the shell. Well, that's awesome You guys can can do that and make things so so innovative. Yeah, but our minds were always go and it and all these different things that Would would pop up. I mean if I if you don't mind, I'd like to just say one more We were working with one of the guys in our shop was Pete Levine and he had a concept too Which we wound up calling a pvs snare drum, which was a perimeter venting system and we actually had There were no holes on the outside of the shell For the air to escape But we and we had the holes come out through the bottom bearing edge and escape that way Yeah, but but they were they were holes on on the side, but it didn't go Yeah, just a sorry to clarify it didn't go out through holes in the shell the holes were in the bay are in the Bearing edge and then they go out to the through the shell they come go through the bearing edge first and then out It's a cheese, you know, they'll think it's like there was really you need and it's a great great drum Sensitive it's got it's just a really it's got a lot of impact almost like it almost like it's almost like a compressed sound Right that whole column of air comes down and doesn't escape until it it actually just uses the whole bottom head Right and then escapes man. I didn't know any of that. I didn't know I knew your snares were very You know well-known and a lot of people really love them But Clearly you guys are doing you're not just like complacent with okay We've got a snare that people like which I think is is a great thing so you got to always move forward and If you're not growing and moving forward, then you're you know, you're not moving at all You're going nowhere. So so that's true, but it's it's it's hard to you know Sometimes things just happen or somebody does something like Rob said with Pete, you know, I said wow, this is really cool Because it's a it's a drum, you know, it's just so much you can do with it. Yeah, but Sometimes it's a happy accidents You know, you just don't know yeah Yeah, absolutely, and I didn't really say it before but it So I love I've always really liked your badge. I feel like it's it's pretty simple but I've just always liked it, you know what I mean, it's it's very I Feel like timeless and and it sticks out So I think that's something that that that should be noted It's you know, I can always see it You can you can read it from the other side of the room and know what kind of drums they are which is really cool So that's that's Tony. That's Tony's concept. It's awesome. Yeah, let's just you know, the logo is simple Everything is simple, but it's it's it's pretty much unmistakable. Well, it's funny thing.  Yeah, and there's a shot from a Montreux concert in 91 I think it was his last concert and it's a GMS drum kit in there. I didn't tell you that Wow I forgot. No, and it must have been you know, well at that time, you know It's either pasty or Lionel one of the Swiss connections because it was in Montreux and I was like, oh my god Look at that. I would say it was it was it was blew my mind. I couldn't believe it That's awesome. I watched that. I saw that documentary that was good I'll have to I'll have to go back and watch that I was it's at the end, you know, cuz it was yeah, so you know what I'm talking about. Yeah, I do exactly I was more focused on on him and his recovery and his health and all that Oh, absolutely. Yeah, me too.   That's so cool. I'm sure you never get used to seeing your drums on Huge stages with mega drummers. That's got to never get old The bet the funniest thing was the first time we ever saw him on TV. You remember that Rob? Oh, yeah, it was uh Yeah, here. This is a throwback Johnny Carson. That's how old it goes. Wow, and it was it was a Some Russian Dixieland band Of course on course, I actually have that somewhere. I'll have to find it. That's awesome. Cool, man, you guys made it on Carson. That's huge Well, I'll tell you how old we are Yeah, we're old. Now you guys are great. This is this is awesome Now what would you guys recommend to people? I'm not saying this in a way to like let's get some more competition out there But do you think there's room right now like you don't see too many? Brand brand new drum companies that pop up that can last for there's a couple that have been around for a while But a lot of them come in and then they go away Would you say to people who are thinking I want to get into drum building? There's no hope kid Don't worry about it. Just go home or would you say? You know, what advice would you give to someone who has an interest in building drums? What I would say. Yeah, it's it's hard because It depends on the person and what they want to accomplish It depends on the level of what they think the drum business should be for them If it's I could tell you that it what it's going to be is is a one-off operation That's gonna you're gonna sell a little bit here and a little bit there And a lot of guys are very capable and can make some quality stuff, but Can it support your family? Can it can it support? You know Employees that's a whole different thing. So it really depends on what they want to do and the I think the reason why they don't last that long is because you don't have that constant cash flow coming in and Eventually it catches up to you and and you can't yeah, you can't operate. So do it for fun more than right a millionaire, right? well You're not getting rich in this business. I'm at least I don't think so I mean unless you know, you're made you have a major funding and Distribution, but I think that's as we said before that's all changed the thing is Making drums is not hard, you know as as a concept. All right Yeah, but what we bring to the table and it's a lot of times guys will come to me and they say Oh, I want I need like this. I want a fat sounding snare drum I bought like an 8 by 14 or something like that and I owe it and it's come to the point that my relationship with a lot of guys is Now they'll say I want this sound and they'll just leave it at that because they trust that I have The expertise and the experience to make them what they want You know because the people sure most people they read so much on the internet and they as with anything You know, there's too much information and most of it's wrong. Yeah, absolutely You know, it's like Dylan Dylan will say I need this. Okay, great And that's it. He'll just leave it at that and and then I'll make him a drum He says it you nailed it Just be I've done I how many drums have I made? I mean even just me personally. Yeah, yes thousands Tony has I would say almost literally touched every drum that's ever come out of there Hmm. And yeah, which is great. I mean that doesn't happen with other companies I don't think there's a more qualified drum technician in the world that this guy Whatever like what he just said what whatever they tell him he makes it if they will have a certain sound on their head He makes it happen and he knows what he's you know, he knows what he's doing Well, I asked the right questions to us. All right. What do you want it to sound? You know, okay. All right Then fine. Just I said just leave it to me and I'll take it from there You know, tell me what you think you want, but don't tell me how to make it.   I said and he'll always say well, I need something like this and he goes I know I know I'm not gonna say anything else. You'll just make it for me and I'll be very happy He's learned, you know, it works.   It's the other way around if you want to get something that's really fat You got to go narrow you got to go shallower You know it because the chamber is just too big sometimes and it just doesn't translate and it why I don't know I can't answer that. I just know that what works Yeah, you know bearing edge choices, you know the amount of lugs the number of lugs on the drum The more lugs you put on the drum It doesn't it becomes a hard feel it doesn't have any gush that has no Meat, I mean personally, I I can't touch anything over eight lugs. I go crazy It just feels like a table to me more lugs and this is something I've always like I understand it But I want to hear it from like an expert Such as yourself. So can you explain in a little more detail the lug Situation like if you have tense so more lugs equals What's a hard it's a harder feel it's a harder feel and why I don't know maybe because there's more things They're adding tension to the head. Yeah, like I said, I'm not scientific about this I just know that the first time I made it a drum, you know When we first started out every snare drum had 10 lugs unless it was like a 13 but like a 14 inch snare drum They all had 10 lugs Okay, yeah, I made one with eight and I went. Oh my god.  I couldn't believe the difference in the sound the pitch the feel it was like It was an epiphany.  What but it was just it was and Then you know, I I realized that there were a lot of eight lug drums out there, you know life in the 50s to see Sure, you know, whatever realized that, you know, they've been doing this for years and I just figured it out You know, it was just one of those things and but you know to me there's a there's a softer feel, you know, it has a little more give in the head and It could tune it tension wise the same as like a 10 lug drum, but it'll have a lower pitch. Gotcha. That's again Scientifically, I can't tell you why physically with the physics of it. I don't know Well, I think sometimes when things are too scientific, you know, it's not it doesn't translate that well You could say like on paper it's supposed to be like this But a lot of times it's like well, that doesn't feel the way it's supposed to you know, well, you know lock everything to a grid Exactly there you go. That's a good. That's a great analogy because again in the studio everything is very tight and by lock it to the grid He's talking about using it dead onto a metronome if you're recording drums and well if it's day if it's dance music You know, I get it. Yes, exactly But it loses that feel of that kind of swing of course speeds up towards the chorus and And all that stuff so well, that's you can still play to a click and have a good feel absolutely sure But if you beat detective it it's a different subject. Yeah, anyway, we digress. Do you guys have any? Cool stories of you know Someone's you got to make a snare in 20 minutes because they're broke and there's 20,000 people waiting And you know in the audience or anything cool like that not that example, but Any cool stories? I have a lot of them Yeah, I don't know if you heard of the band of spin doctors, but Aaron Comis. Oh, yeah, sure We made a kit for him to use at one of his concerts and we brought it to Jones Beach Theater To use that night. They set it up. They did soundcheck but he kept hearing a buzz in it and All night long and and he actually told us about it. We were really we really wanted to to make Aaron happy and Tony and I we went to we went to the show afterwards We we took the drums back to the shop and we took them completely apart I don't remember what time we we worked on them to like four o'clock in the morning till we figured it out and Actually drove it to the next gig in New Jersey for the next morning And it was just a little buzz coming from a log or something, but well, we just That was a crazy night. Well, that's funny to boot.  We would oh it's nuts man That's passionate, but that's fun.  Well, that wasn't fun But you know what we also had another great thing James Brown wanted our kids and that was oh, yeah, that was so much fun So we got a call James Brown was rehearsing in California and at Center staging studios And the owner called me up and he goes Rob. You're never gonna believe this James Brown needs drums for his 40th anniversary Tour he took every drum set here He pulled the bass drum down from every one of them and he hit every one of them and when he got to yours He said that's it. That's what I want and I'm like, whoa Right, so we wound up making him he and we did a custom brown sparkle for him And he had two drummers and we actually delivered them to the Apollo Theater for his 40th anniversary tour We hung out with it. It was so it was mind-blowing. That's unbelievable. Yeah. Oh, yeah, that was something I'll never forget that one. If you don't mind me telling a couple of stories Bart Please do I'm just reminiscing, you know after we talked to the day I was thinking there was another band called Splendor who was playing they were recording their first album up in Bearsville Studios and Todd Rungren was the producer and I got a call from the drummer and He he said you're never gonna believe this he goes They had rented the equipment all from Artie Smith who was a drum technician in New York City And he had a cartage business where he would have drums and amplifiers and But he was mostly known for drums as far as I know and Artie had sent up a GMS kit And he had sent up about 40 snare drums and those snare drums were all kinds of old Leadies and you know, just your classic go-to Gretch snare drums and all kinds of stuff and He made the drummer sit in the room and hit every snare drum and he narrowed it down to two and both of them were ours which That's both you remember that town. Oh, yeah, Artie's collection. I mean I saw Artie's collection. It was Unreal it was unreal. I mean Everything that you could possibly think of, you know stuff that was rare what he had everything that's got to make you feel good I mean, that's like a that's a blind taste test there. I'm sure it wasn't blind But but like I mean both but the fact that it's two of that right goes to show that it's not like a one-off Accident where one was just this amazing drum. That's so cool. Yeah, it was fun. Cool. Any other any other stories? some of the Serial things that have happened not necessarily Because of the drums that we made but because of our position Allowed us to meet people that we would have never thought we would have met One of them that my favorite was like Karl Palmer. Oh, yeah, and I remember yeah But like Karl Palmer start he called us up And I remember one of the guys working for us and this is like when we first started He called us up and and this is through the connection of feisty He called us up and and my friend answered the phone and my friend Brian and goes Rob Karl Palmer's on the phone. I was like what I Never would have guessed right so we we we struck up a conversation and we talked a couple of times and he really had a certain sound that he wanted or he had some ideas and so We never Materialized anything out of it, but I wound up running into him at a concert At Jones Beach and they were opening up for a Jeff Hotel I think and he had his drum set set up and I went over and said hi to him and he was all excited. He's like Rob Rob Gotta check it out got to see my the drum I'm telling you about and he brings me out on stage now the audience is packed They still had the cover over the drum set he picks up the cover and Karl and I are We're crawling on the floor underneath his this tarp and looking at his drums from underneath And I'm just like looking over at him like you would in a million years I would have never guessed I'd be with one of these drum guys that world-famous class guy Karl Palmer and here I am next to him. I just blew me away That's so funny. You never know what's gonna lead to what and it's gonna be just a connection and This is so this is crazy, but like I interviewed Bill Cardwell of C&C recently and he said that Karl Palmer called him looking for a specific drum set and that ended up being the very it was radio king Esk drum set but with his sizes and it ended up being the very first C&C drum set so just you saying that Yeah, this sort of like everything is kind of connected here, you know, oh sure And it's funny with those guys too, and I could see it, you know that that he would call Bill or something because Karl my experience with him is he he has very specific ideas and he loves drums Yeah, he loves talking about him and I think it turns him on to to you know to be around that, you know So it's absolutely interesting. Yeah. Oh, that's awesome. No, you're right Though you I've had the same experience with the podcast where I've been amazed at sometimes the connections that it's made with people who just I mean, we're all nerds about it who like talking about drums and It doesn't go away. You know what? I mean the passion never goes away I mean you guys have been involved Tony and Rob you guys have both made thousands of drums like you said so it's like I Mean, I'm sure you still love working on drums and talking about drums. Obviously. Yep Yeah It's a it's a it's been a great part of our lives right tone. Oh sure, you know Both being drummers, but making an instrument that somebody else could appreciate it. That's something special. Yeah Definitely now why don't you guys tell people where they can find you if they'd want to check out your amazing drums and You know social media the website all that good stuff. We have a our website is GMS drums calm and you could send us an email through that and We'll call you and and we could discuss your drums There's also the GMS Facebook page and we have Instagram. So we're all the social media So that's that's the way to do it. Cool So I also want to give a quick shout out to Dylan whistling who is from getting the sound calm who was on a previous episode About funky drummer and recreating that sound and he is who connected me with Rob and Tony and got this whole GMS episode together So big shout out to to Dylan you guys you guys have known known him for a while, right? Oh, yeah Dylan goes way back. Yeah, I remember Dylan when he came to the shop He was always a guy who was he loves drums He was he was curious about him and he played GMS and he wanted to see the shop and he came to the factory one day and And he hung out for a day and we and saw how we made drums and we that man That was I would say over 20 years ago. Oh, we don't remember the exact but he was playing with he was playing with Johnny Soco at the time and And We've been friends ever since and he's done a lot for us. No, he's great and you know Well, he's another great ambassador of yours in the world. Nobody better Cool. Well, I want to thank you guys for coming on the show and taking the time to talk with us and and again, I think that everyone should keep an eye out for GMS and Try to get your hands on some and reach out to Rob and Tony if you would like a GMS drum set So thank you so much for taking the time to talk with me today guys. Thanks Bart. Appreciate it. Thank you, Bart If you like this podcast find me on social media at drum history and please share rate and leave a review And let me know topics that you would like to learn about in the future Until next time keep on learning This is a Gwynn Sound podcast


Hi, I'm Stu, I'm the kitman at FC Bournemouth. This is Match My Catch Challenge. Why? Why is that cheating? That's a good one. How many is that? It's nine. About there? Where? On my chest. No, higher. In my face. Not sure where that's going to go. This one. Go on. Anywhere. No. Not in the ball. About there. How many more? Last one. Up on my shoulder here. Not on my head. That's two more. Where? I've got a gap here. Nearly. Oh, I've dropped. I've dropped another one. Let's have another one because it's out of the way.


I grew up with tin skull holly cookies, but did you know? You can also use a Dutch oven. Here's what you're going to do. Put your cookies in layers, in between each layer, add a piece of parchment, when you get to the very top, put a piece of bread. This will go stale instead of the cookies. Put your top on. Everything will last for about a month, but I don't think your cookies will make it that long.