Hi, I haven't seen them in a long time. I know. What's up, dude? What's up? Fernanda Coppel is here. And fun fact, we both went to UC Santa Cruz. So go banana slugs. I just wanted to welcome Fernanda and welcome all of you again. This is like the third Fernanda Coppel is here. And the last one will be next week with Kirby Hines. And then we're going to take a break and then maybe it'll continue, but it won't be me that will be continuing with it. So if anybody's interested in like continuing the Super Friends, that'd be awesome. Just send me an email or just visit the group. I do want to acknowledge a couple of things before we start. One is that today would have been Evelina Fernandez's birthday. And she sadly passed away a few months ago. So I just want to know. I think someone else passed away. What? Oh no, not Evelina Fernandez. Evelina's alive. Oh my god, Diane Rodriguez. Diane Rodriguez. I know. So sorry. Today's Diane Rodriguez's birthday. Evelina's alive. Wow. What a way to start. Wow. All right. All right. Okay. And I also want to, I also just want to acknowledge that Monica still has her hands. She had a heart attack. I also want to just acknowledge the unspeakable death of Andrés Guardado in Los Angeles. And I hope that you all are continuing to protest his murder by LAPD. And I just, you know, we're all kind of feeling what, it's hard to talk about right now. But I just wanted to acknowledge that. And thank you for being present with us. I'm really excited to have Fernandez here because I think she's awesome. And she has her one foot in TV and another foot in playwriting. And I just think she's the bee's knee. So Fernandez, I'm going to give it, I'm going to give the floor to you. And thank you for coming. Thank you so much. So nice to see all of you. Hey, Daniel, and talk to you all and see some familiar faces I haven't seen in a long time. I wanted to just start by saying it's a wonderful day to talk about writing, to be writing. I feel like there are plays everywhere in front of us right now. It's a time of a lot of conflict and a lot of people expressing opposing views. And it couldn't be a better time to pick up a pen and sort of write what we're seeing and what we're feeling in terms of like documenting this time. And also in terms of healing, whatever pain that we are feeling during this time. For me personally, I also just wanted to share a bit about myself and my story. I didn't find writing in the normal sort of way. I didn't grow up in an artistic home. I was born in Mazatlán, Sinaloa, Mexico. And I came to the US when I was three. And I grew up with my mom and my sister in San Diego, sort of like very traditional, Latina house, religious, strict, all of that jazz. And then my mom unfortunately had to go back to live in Mexico when I was 16. So I stayed in San Diego with my sister. And we were each other's family in this country. And then I didn't do very well in high school. I sat in school and I got terrible grades. The only school that I got into was UC Santa Cruz. And so I went. And that college experience was amazing for me.  Have you ever seen a play? No, never seen a play. And so they were like, Oh, we're performing it in this cafeteria. It's called Latin. It's Latin's anonymous written by Diane Rodriguez is one of the writers of Latin's anonymous, rest in power Diane and other writers who have met in LA and told them that their, their play was a seminal piece for me. But I went to see these students performing Latin's anonymous in this cafeteria at Stevenson College.  What is that? That is for me, ding, ding, ding, all the lights going off the alarm bells, etc. And I went home and wrote a play having never read one just based on instinct, based on passion, drive. And I ended up doing that play on campus at UC Santa Cruz and I ended up getting a mentor there, Alma Martinez, who then was like, Hey, you're really good at this writing thing. Have you ever thought of doing an MFA? And I was like, I don't even know what that means. I'm supposed to be a lawyer. This is just for fun.  So I applied to different MFAs. I got into NYU, which is where I met Mr. T over here. He was always so I met him as a student and he directed some of my pieces in a class that we had a lab. And he was always super generous to me, always trying to hear sort of what I was trying to say and was just really open and honest. He introduced me to some actors who became my best friends in life. And I'm really grateful for that. Thank you so much, team. And, and while I was at NYU, and I get asked this a lot, there's a lot of sort of things that you can count on learning within an MFA program, whether it's for you or not. It's up to you. It's a big financial risk, obviously. But for me, once I started in learning playwriting at NYU, I then continued my education and went to the Juilliard School for another three year sort of run postdoc. So I have been to the fancy schools and I want to talk a little bit about the secret tools that they sort of preach so that you don't have to waste your money.   How do I keep going? And so this is a good place to start. For in my opinion, I think there's two main things, aspects of writing. There's the deep dark soul shit, which is that guttural sort of thing that you have to express that dying voice, the voices that you hear. This I feel cannot be taught. This is something that is just cultivated. And I'm happy to sort of talk about how you cultivate the side of you in terms of staying emotionally healthy in terms of like, you know, little tricks I have for for making sure I feel emotionally connected to every piece, because that's not always the case. And the second thing, which is what I'm mostly going to talk about today, is structure and craft. And I was telling Lalitha this before everyone sort of got on the call. But the thing that I found most is that we as writers of color, what separates us as writers of color and white writers is that they have confidence. And they don't sit down and fret about how this is how the intended need. They don't fret about how this is going to be received. And that sort of confidence can be built up within our communities too, if you have sort of these tools to fall back on when you're having a rainy day. And so these sort of structure craft things is basically all they're going to talk about in MFA programs. And I'm going to talk about how you cultivate the soul stuff. Again, in my humble opinion, I feel that Latinx people, our culture, one of our cruxes of our culture is storytelling. I think that we have the goods inside of us. We live in a culture of like mix, right? La Llorona and Cocuy, cheesemen, right? We are the best people at telling jokes. We are the best people that make people laugh, having people be engaged. And this is how we communicate with each other. And so even though I didn't grow up in a home where we were, you know, watching Brecht plays every day or like going to see Shakespeare in the park, there was theatrical things and dramatic conflict going on within my house. And that's what sort of spoke to me when I saw that play. It was sort of like the manifestation of how I grew up with like my mom and my sister. They're the most amazing storytellers and they would be the best writers if they made that connection. But I've mostly learned most of my tools from my family. And then I've learned the language of how to activate these tools from these sort of white establishments. But this is something that we have inside of us already. One really key ingredient that you really need for a good play, a good script. Film, pilot is conflict. You, this is a very, very key ingredient. It's like the salt when you're cooking. If you've missed the salt, sabe a caca. No one wants to see and we also, I just want to say that we as audience members right now, we are infiltrated with content. There's content on Facebook, Quibi, everywhere you look, there are stories and stories and stories and so we are the toughest judges. And I know that from like writing for TV and film, we're always thinking about what you guys think, what you guys will feel. And so you guys know that when you turn on something or you go to sit down and see a play and there's no conflict, you get bored, right? It's uninteresting. We want to engage our audience. We want them to know that there's a problem here and it's going to get fixed. There's two types of, important types of conflict in writing. There's external. Not all plays have external conflict or need external conflict. That's a great thing about theater. But when you're writing a film script or you're writing a pilot, you absolutely have to think of what the external conflict is because it's more of a visual medium. So the external conflict is going to be the outside forces that are keeping your character from achieving their goal. Every single film has this. Then there's the internal conflict, which is the main set piece of theater and most film scripts and TV pilots have both, right? And this is sort of the secret, the past, that the trauma that holds our character back from achieving their goal within this script. Another thing, and I came from a very specific sort of teacher and school of thought in terms of dramatic writing, but which was I've studied with Martian Norman, who has very specific thoughts on this, which I actually agree on. But when you're sitting down to write a play, you want to get to the end, but then you want to go back and really fine tune the first 20 pages of your play, because that is the most important part of your play. Why?  Why would the first 20 pages be that important? This is because you have to, A, set up and introduce us to the world, set up and introduce us to all of the characters. And then, and this is a very funny, interesting thing that Marcia always says, you have to let the audience know when it's time to go home. What does that mean? Well, who's thinking about going home? Well, we've all been audience members. We sit there sometimes and we're like, I want to know what time it is. I want to look at my phone. Within this first 20 minutes, you're going to set up a goal, this sort of goal that your protagonist or your characters are trying to reach. And you want to give them a heads up. And this is where the craft comes in. For example, again, I think the tools of playwriting are very much in storytelling and common interaction. If we take something like cheesemen, right? And you are hanging out with your friend. And you're about to spill the beans, right? And you say, guys, I saw Lupita doing something super shady the other day. I was at the Tendita and she was wearing the skin clothes and then, in that first sentence, we've set up what the audience is waiting to hear. They already know that this is a story about someone who did something shady. So that built suspense, right? And we want to do this with our place too. Obviously, not in this sort of open, this is a very sort of like on the no suggestion, but we want to set up, we want to create suspense for them. When is that shady moment coming? And this way, the audience is sort of engaged as soon as they sit down. They feel like they're on for a ride. The craft comes with trying not to make this obvious. This is a very delicate thing. I like to think of it as you have guests over for a carme asada and the lights go out.   And so you want to lead your audience by the hand through the dark to the front entrance and to safety. This is what this whole first 20 pages is. You want to show the audience what they're looking for, where to look and when this story is actually going to be over. Through hints, through dialogue, through dramatic tension, but this is like a very main sort of like focus of your first 20 pages. So had a couple other sort of non sequiturs, but one thing I wanted to test with our sort of theory of this, this sort of dramatic structure, craft questions, all of that. Now, like I said, right now is this time of conflict. And COVID has sort of woken us all up to a new reality. And I feel, I honestly feel like there's plays all around us. We are constantly observing dramatic texts that we can then translate. It's a gold mine for writing right now. And it's a great time to be doing this. So I wanted to take sort of a real life conflict that happened to me, which is a very common sort of, we're calling them COVID fights with my spouse, right? So my wife and I were on a Zoom call with our in-laws and we were chatting about Black Lives Matter and the protests and all this stuff. And I sort of leaned into my wife and I told her that her breasts melt and that she needed some water. She was dehydrated. So this actually started, you know, World War III. It was a very insensitive thing to do at that moment. And all of us are, you know, getting a lot of our spouses, we're getting into these silly little fights. But if you then take that, after the fight is over, of course, and you say you're sorry, et cetera, if you turn your right or brain on and you look at this lens of structure, conflict, how can we use this scene to be the first scene of a play? That was my thinking after everything was done.  What if I was watching this on stage? What if this was the play, this fight? And we're starting with this play. Of course, we remove ourselves from this exercise, right? Because it's not, trust me, it's not emotionally healthy to put your exact self in all of your writing and your texts. You want to remove yourself. That's part of the process of the deep dark soul shit, which I'm happy to talk about as well.  And my wife is Afro Latinx, right? So we are experiencing the world right now in very different terms. And so that you have really great external conflict. There's these two characters with opposing views that are married. They're stuck to each other for life, for better or for worse. That's great conflict for an entire play. There's a lot there, right? We've all seen those love stories. It's about will they, won't they? So if we begin with a fight, this is very engaging. Imagine like you're in the theater, lights down, there's this silly COVID fight, which sort of blows up between these two characters. Where do we go from there? What's the next scene? So this is where we want to think of our play as a map. And we want to see to where the end of the play is going to be. And then we want to make placeholders for scenes that we would see in a play like this. Obviously, if the play, the first 20 pages of the play, the first scene is about this relationship, then this play is going to be about this couple. And will they or won't they get through everything that's going on? And you want to ask yourselves more questions about this couple. You want to, another sort of scene that you will see is, well, what is this world of these two characters when they're outside of the relationship? So maybe you'll see a scene where one of them works, right? Or maybe you'll see if they have kids, or maybe you'll see how they spend their days. These are all really great ideas for scenes, again, in this play. That's like two or three other scenes of these characters away from each other. But we see sort of how they experience this world, which is like this COVID world that we've set up in the first 20 pages, this Black Lives Matters world that we set up in the first 20 pages. And then we also might see scenes of these characters with their families. We might see scenes where the in-laws are over for a cookout. We might see scenes where the in-laws talk about politics or their childhood friends or where they grew up, or we want to establish a good sense of these characters past traumas. That's a whole other list of scenes that we might see. And then after we see these scenes where they're apart, we're going to want to see them come back together. So that's another scene that we might write down. Maybe they're processing this initial fight. And maybe after processing it with other people, they've come back together and the Afro-Latheanx character who's based on my wife would say, hey, you don't understand me and you never will. And that is a great act up. That's a great dramatic question. Again, the question that we set up in the first 20 pages, well, they won't think we're ending this sort of act with another question is, they've come at a fundamental impasse in their relationship. This conflict is getting deeper and deeper. I really think as writers too, we're part psychologists, we really take sort of everything, we don't take things at face value. We're always psychoanalyzing the deeper meaning of everything everybody says. And I think that's really important when you're setting up sort of this set list of scenes, is like, even though we're saying, even though two characters are saying they're cool, logically, you know, you've been in a fight with your spouse or your best friend or your mom or your dad, sometimes they just say it's cool, but it's not really cool. And that's more dramatic tension. So then maybe in the second act, these couples trying to work out their relationship, they've met this fundamental impasse. And maybe there's like therapy, how do they heal? Is that what the second act of this play is? Now that we've set up this question, who do they seek counsel to? Who are their therapists? Do they have like a best friend at work? Is it, you know, their psychic? I don't know, is it their dog? Do they talk to their dog about their problems? There's so many different possibilities here, but we want to then answer the question of like, how do these two characters cope? And also, does this conflict drive them apart? Is that what type of play this is? Or does it keep them together? And then in the last scene of a play like this about this relationship, we want to know if they're going to stay together or break up.  So we want to know what the solution is. Sometimes the solution isn't like black or white, which is one of the great plays that I love. What if this is a cyclical problem? What if this is always going to happen? What if this is like a statement about the world? There's so many different ways to end your play, there could be a whole different seminar on it. But that would probably be the end. And so looking back, we've taken sort of this real life thing that happened to me. And by the way, my wife and I are fine. But we did took this real life situation where there was conflict in the home, which is we're all experiencing that. And then we think bird's eye view. How do we sustain this conflict? Every time you think of a different scene, you want a dramatic question for that scene. And it's also really helpful to have, again, this set list of scenes. And I've totally written plays like this, where I have a first scene, and like, I don't know where it's going. But then you think, okay, bird's eye view, if I was watching this play and I had this scene, what type of scenes would I see in a play like this? Well, every play has a scene of fireworks, a building of secrets and tensions, and then those secrets are let out. And that's boom, every single play has that. And so with these types of tools, I find it's really easier to sustain writing on a rainy day. Even though it's a great time to write, it's also a hard time to write, because we're feeling so much, we're feeling discouraged. We're feeling like we didn't know, we don't know what this world is or what it will be.  And that's really hard to do.  But if you can think about it from this sort of different way of like making a set list of your plays, you will continue to move forward. I think part of writing is moving forward, rewriting and excavating your ideas to the fullest potential. And that's what I think separates the writers from the people who do it occasionally.  Because you have these, these sort of ways, place markers for where this place is going to go. And with that, I say get to writing. All right, let's go. Right. Yeah, I said, do you have any thoughts about reversals in a play or in a script? When to use them? How many where they should go? Were there any like tips or tidbits that you, you got from grad school? Yeah, I mean, I think reversals, reversals are great. I would say it's a tool that you need when you're writing a film. You absolutely need a reversal in every act to a film. Maybe we, maybe we should talk about like what you, how you define reversals. I guess in terms of playwriting or film or either one, I think a reversal is when the characters, the plot, the story that we thought we were following is sort of does a 360. And that's always a really interesting twist. And it's really difficult to sort of plant those seeds within, you know, a play, but it's really fun to do. You love it when the audience goes, that's something to strive for. And I think that's something that you definitely need to engage with in the first 20 pages. I would definitely set up what we know is true in those first 20 pages only to then flip it on its head. I've mostly seen reversals and actouts in the middle of the script, but you want to take time to set up what you know is infallibly fundamentally true about this world, these characters, this conflict, all of it. And then you want to make space to flip it on its head. It's like the who done it or like law and order. The killer was Steve the janitor. No! But you saw Steve in the background of every scene with his fucking, you know, his broom and he was like there and he knew everything. And you were like, okay, you saw him in the background, but then he came to light in the reversal is another good way to explain it. No, that's awesome. Time is really important in a play. It's part of sort of the rules of engagement. Not all plays follow the same time, like real time. When we walk into a theater, we want to set up the world of the play for the audience. And the world involves time. How does time work in this imaginary stage? Because that world is different than the world that we are sitting in. We're watching the box. And so the way you use time in your play can be a really interesting way to rev up the conflict. Some plays or stories start at the end. So we give, we absolutely tell the audience when it's time to go home, because we're starting at the very end. So they know what they're waiting for. And that's a really interesting way to structure your story. An act out. Also time in terms of every scene is every scene the same time. I have a play I wrote that takes place over one year. So every scene is several months, several months. So we're observing this conflict over the time over a year span.   Time is a very important thing in our life and it's a very important part of your story that you should absolutely think about when you're sitting down on page one. What time is it? How will time function in the story? The act out, when you go see a play, there's usually an admission. Some plays don't need an intermission. It's just, it's best told in one large chunk. But some plays do take a break for the audience. Usually if they're longer, I've seen a play, you know, that has three intermissions. And it's just basically a rest in the story for the audience. And just like commercial breaks, I would, I would describe it as that. So when you're, that's something you sort of figure out when you're done with the first draft. But it's like, how do I want the audience to engage in this story? Do they need a break? Do I, if I was sitting there as them, would I want to give them a break to pee and like think about everything? And if you are giving them a break, what do you want them to be thinking about when they're peeing or they're buying their soda or they're outside smoking the cig? Like think about how you want to leave what, what, what you want percolating. And usually actouts end with suspense so that they come back. There's some sort of other dramatic question. And it usually has to do with the last scene. So we're hinting at sort of that last dramatic question. Again, in a way that's not absolutely giving it away, which is where the practice and the craft and the drafts and all that come, but there's a correlation between the act out and the end of the end of the point. That's a really good question. I mean, in non-traditional structures, I feel like the best way to go about it so that you don't lose your audience. I love plays with non-traditional structure, but you have to let the audience know what, know what the rules of the world are so that they're engaged and in the know of what this structure means. Every time you write a play that is out of structure, you for yourself as a writer engage in some sort of logic about what's going on and why the story is told this way. You need to let the audience in on that, again, without making it obvious, which is like a difficult craft, like fuck, let's call Jose Rivera and ask him how he does it. But it's like, it's very hard to do. But you want to let them in on those rules that you created for yourself when you were writing because you did. And if it makes sense to you, you want to verbally sort of explain it to the audience so that they can be in on it and enjoy it the way that you enjoy it or you intended for them to enjoy. What was the other question? Magical realism? I have written plays that have an element of magical realism. Again, it's the same thing as like non-traditional sort of structure. It's about engaging the rules of it. I wrote a play where there was this house and it had this leak and the leak seemed like a normal leak, but then the leak started leaking blood at one point. And so it's something that was explained again in the first 20 pages, like, oh, we live in the shitbag house. Like the thing that I think makes magical realism, the execution of it, so powerful is if we play the magic as real. So the leak existed in that reality as like them not having the means to live in a house that didn't have a leak. But then the magic started because of what the play, you know, the problems of the play. You want the characters to have a logic to why this magic is happening. And then when you build on it, and they are surprised by the fact that the magic is sort of steamrolling into something else, I think that creates more sort of dramatic conflict for you to go different places. Yeah. You know, I don't do a lot of co-writing unless it's someone I don't mind seeing forever. I mean, that's just one thing to think about. Like, you're going to be thinking very intimately with this person for like a long time. So A, you want to know that you like them as a person and don't mind like, you know, talking about your characters at three in the morning with flaming hot cheetos and beers. Like, you'll still be able to stand them. And also, it's like if you share the same vision, I think conflict and like different opinions is a good thing in a writer's room. And when you're co-writing anything, because no one's if you guys have the same exact thoughts about things, then you're that's your clone, right? It's not possible for anyone to think the exact same thoughts. And you shouldn't look for that in a collaborator. You should look for someone where you have the same vision, you have similar artistic goals, and you actually just get along and can have a sustaining working relationship with them. In terms of collaborating in a writer's room, that's very different. It is collaborating to a certain extent, but I like to sort of describe it as writing for hire.   So even though you're collaborating with people to present the showrunner, the best idea that you guys collectively thought of, they have the power to veto it, write it, rewrite it, do whatever they want. So, I mean, that's a little bit different. Hi, Fernanda. Un placer verte otra vez. Yeah, igualmente. So I've got a question for you, and I hope it's not too personal. Several years ago, you were on Bernardo's podcast, and in that interview, you shared about economic instability in your early life. Within your family. And you really made a distinction between being exposed to, let's just say resources, being exposed to resources, but then having those resources all of a sudden not be there beyond your control. So instability. And I'm really wondering, how is that a characteristic that shows up in your work? And two, just such a wonderful conversation that you're having right now, because you're speaking about suspense. But even in the way you are having this conversation, you've got me like waiting for the next thing that's going to drop.  But I remember in that interview, how much it resonated for me. I feel like we had the same life. So how does that appear in your stories? No, that's not too personal. That's a great question. Yes, I grew up in a very difficult circumstances that definitely shaped me to be the person that I am. When my mom went back to Mexico, I was basically on my own economically. And I happened since I was 16 years old. So I mean, I think that's more shaped me as a person. And I think in my process, it gives me a drive that is both healthy and unhealthy. You know, I'm definitely a perfectionist, but I can never get it right. So I mean, it's good and bad. And I think the fact that I'm always on a quest to just find the best sort of way I can express my deep dark shit is great because I don't really buy into, I do and I don't buy into like the Hollywood sort of like, oh, the deadline.com article and you know, like, I don't really care about that stuff. I just want it's all about the work for me, which is good and bad. You know, I think part of being a writer nowadays, especially in L.A., is learning how to market yourself. If we were talking about that, I would be silent this whole time because I mostly focus on geeking out on stuff like this. But I found that because of who I am and growing up in sort of those economic circumstances and learning how to ask for help. I think that's the other thing that growing up that way made me realize. And so I have a really great team of people and a track certain type of people who want to help me and like want me to just want to help. And so I think when you're honest about where you come from and who you are, I think it attracts sort of, it attracts different people, but I definitely have like a really great team like a manager really believes in me and just wants me to succeed because she just does and that's great. In terms of my work, how that affects my work, I had my teacher again, Marsha Norman, used to always say that and I'm sure you guys have heard this quote about how writers are always writing the same story. Have you heard that? It's like writers are always writing the same story. But it's true. It is. And so I think that once you figure out what story you're always writing, I think there's a superficial thing of what you're writing, which is like, yes, all my work is about queer, Latinx women or women and fighting against the system. And that's sort of like the superficial, yes, I always write about these things and like, I'm very inspired by like Chicano theater and like, I have a very good political sense. But in the deeper sort of just philosophical nude way, I think I'm always writing about someone who doesn't feel like they belong and as like an immigrant, I often feel that way, like I don't belong. And so I look for that when people send me material, is there a character that doesn't belong here that's just trying to find belonging? And then I find them and I'm like, oh, okay, I think I can do this. This is this is attractive to me. Is there someone who's just like fighting against the current to belong and to like withstand the test of time and the elements and everything. And I'm like, Oh, yep, that's me. That's why I connect with I can do that. And if there's not that person, then I can't write this story. And I say pass, you know, yeah. Next question in the chat.  I have a follow up for that one. I think you just talked about it a little bit. I do have different tricks that I do because you know, part of me is like, I take this practice that I'm sharing with you guys into everything I write. And so when you're writing for TV, it's all about quantity and not quality. The show must go on. The episode must get shot at the end of the week, even if it's like complete shit, even if the toilet paper looks better than the script, you're gonna shoot it. Because there's a lot of money writing on this and we have to go, go, go, go, go.  When we're writing our plays, we're so, we pamper ourselves, we light our candles, I shit, I have my candles lit right now, I have my crystals on my hand.  Music, for me, is a very, very important part of my process. Absolutely everything I write, I build a soundtrack for it on Spotify. And, and I say, like, even if I'm writing a TV episode, episode 106, and I build that, that those songs, and then I will, at lunch, walk around the block and listen to the songs and just sort of like dream about the characters and the conflict to think of ideas to pitch. I will listen to that in the corner, off on the corner on set, if I have to rewrite on set with my computer, same in the theater. If we're in tech, I will have my playlist of my play, and I'll go off in the corner, I'll listen to it just to like, get in the meditative state. And that's very, it's, it's a very sort of like meditative yoga, you're not thinking, you're thinking from here. And there's different things you can do. That's just something I do that really helps me. That was beautiful. I'm curious if you could talk a little bit about bridging that with your TV work. I've been doing a little bit of that pitching and how to find your way in when you're working within that kind of structure, thinking about both, both the pitching aspect and how to make it something that you're going to, to be sharing with people, to be sending out to people, to be making attractive to somebody, but also trying to reach something that is real and that is maybe darker. I mean, are you asking specifically about pitching? Um, yeah, sure. I, whatever, whatever bridges that I get, the bridge between pitching and writing, I think.  It's awesome.  Like, it's so not writing, it's like the antithesis of everything that we're talking about. And that's why I like geek out talking about this stuff, because that's what I'd rather be doing, really, because I'm a writer and I'm not a performer. And there's someone who could, I wish I could like, write a pitch and have like, Vaniek perform it for me. That's what I feel like I wish I could do.  And so my process for that, first of all, I write the pitch out about eight to 10 pages every time.  Specifically, whenever you start a pitch, you want to say why you're writing this and why you're attracted to that sort of story. And you want to get personal, like why, why, why are you writing this? Why is this story important to you? And you always want to lead with that. And then you want to infuse that as much as you can in the few opportunities you have to talk about your characters, because a lot of it is plot and where you're going to go with it. And like smart fancy moves and like performing it and all that stuff. But I try to write it out first and infuse all of that stuff. I have my playlist for my pitches as well. But I mean pitching is something that I, you know, it's a learned sort of thing. And I struggle with it. And I don't like public speaking. I'm very introverted. I still listen to your pitch playlist from King Liz. You do? I updated.  No, I did one for the play. And then I have been trying to sell that pilot. I had sold it to a network and they passed on it. And then I thought of a different iteration. I've been with that character and that story for like six years now. So I thought of a different iteration of it. And so I created a different playlist. Do you think it might, do you think it might have more attention now given where we are in the country in terms of discussions about in Hollywood and theater about having more black voices, black protagonists, black stories? Yeah. I mean, I think it's a step in the right direction. And I think the difference between theater and Hollywood is that it's very, the theater, I mean, the Hollywood model is based on money, capitalism, what will make money, what will not. And lately shows with people of color have made a lot of money.  So it's not necessarily for the right reasons. And I think definitely what needs to happen is that people of color need to be at the helm of these, of telling these stories so that they're more authentic and specific. I don't think it's enough to have people in front of the camera because they're not in control of the story. I think people need to be behind the camera with power to be able to influence these sort of authentic little things that matter to like us. And that's still something that really needs to be worked out. Right. I think we have another question. Yeah, what happens after you sell a pilot? Does the pilot writer generally join the writing room or become a showrunner or leave the project? And I know we only have about 10 minutes left, but I do want to invite people, if you want to join the conversation, if you want to raise your hand, if you want to unmute yourself, you're more than welcome to do so to ask your question. What happens after you sell a pilot is either you get hired to write it or you don't. And then you write and develop it with a group of producers in a network and you rewrite it and develop it for as long as they think until they either decide yay or nay.   But it all depends on who's the person selling it. If it was like a white man, then they wouldn't have to go as many hurdles as someone like me. Or I think someone like me would, the network would maybe think I needed a babysitter so they'd hire a white man to oversee everything I was doing.  So I'm to a place where I've been on about eight shows. I'm older than I look. And I'm not going to stand for that. So I'm trying to have just a different mentality and more confidence, which is what I was trying to also impart in you guys. I think confidence goes a long way in this country and in this business. And if someone thinks that you can do it and they don't have to worry about you at night and then they can blame it on you when it fails, they will do so. Well, we got your back. Let's burn down the system. Yeah. That was from Viviana. Thank you, Viviana. Fernanda, can you hear me? So we both have a shared love with, we have a shared love for Alma Martinez. And it was funny, I just saw her in Hentified and we have Herbert who was also in Hentified. Do you know Herbert T. Guenza? Of course. Hello. We got a master among us. I know. He can tell you all about writing with a group. Speaking of deep dart ship, you, based on that, based on just having Alma as your teacher, you started writing for the bridge on FX, right? And talk about some deep dart ship. That show is dark as hell. Did you recommend her to be on that show? Did you bring her along? Did you like secretly like, okay. Yes, I did. Yeah, I did. I did. I was trying to get back into it. And I sort of pleaded with my boss, but, you know, it didn't, she was so good for it and like so perfect. You know, it wasn't, I didn't have to do much, but yeah, she was, it was an incredible honor to work with someone who was your teacher and is now your friend in a professional setting. It was something that, I mean, all we have process because we can't control everything else and talk about enjoying the process. I really enjoyed being on set with Alma made me want to cry every day. She means a lot to me. I wrote a whole play for her. She just has to like read it. She said she was afraid to read it because I think it, well, anyway, it's just it, I think it, he was really close to what happened to her at Pomona College. So I just wanted, I'm giving her like the space to like when, when the time is right, she'll, she said she'll read it, but I think we have another question. I saw a hand from Justin. You still have a question? Yeah. No, someone in the chat too. Yeah, thank you so much. So I kind of have a question about burning the whole system down. So I'm not Latino, I'm mixed race Asian American, and I'm trying to change the way our theater department sort of sees race and tokenizes race. I guess when you were in, when you were pursuing higher education graduate degrees, what was like, what sort of barriers did you face? How did you overcome them? And how would you like to see them change for somebody who's like my age, maybe hoping to go into one of them? I mean, that's a great question. I can't tell you how much I struggled. Specifically like at NYU, I almost dropped out.    And so it created an obsession in me with language. I wanted to master a language and every time I try something new or that's why I've been on eight different TV shows before I'm trying to sell my own is because I want to understand the way that these white men sort of talk and with that power and understanding that language comes power, I think. And so because if you can relate to them the way that they communicate, then they will understand in some way, but that's sort of a choice, right? That was my choice. So I think going into these programs, you have to know that you're learning someone else's canon. Maybe you will like some of the things, maybe you won't, but just knowing those plays as a reference, knowing that theater as like a reference point will is a helpful tool in the rest of your career because your career doesn't stop when you graduate. It goes on. And you know, I wasn't one of like the people in my program who people were necessarily very excited about my work. I found my community with like people like T who are like, hey, have you ever heard of Intar or started hanging out over there? So it's like, it's not, it's an important tool, but I don't think you should go in there every day as a young person I went and being like, I want you guys to like me. I'm like, why don't I fit in? Which is normal, but you don't have to. And in fact, if you don't, that's a good thing because you're probably really interesting and have so many different layers. And so you will take these tools and make something really great out of it after, of course, you go through that experience.  So I would say don't take anything to heart and keep going. And in terms of burning down the system, I think it takes infiltrating the system first before burning it down, which is one of my goals. Thank you so much. Our other question in the chat was what was your experience while working with Robert Rodriguez and how do you see his role as a Latinx producing artist changing the game in the industry? I had a great time writing on Robert's show from Dussel Dawn, which was on his own network. I actually didn't need him because he was shooting a Battlestar Alita during the time that we were in doing the show. But the thing I really love about Robert is that he always works with his family. I met his sister on the show and wrote with his brother. He's someone who really believes in his community and like giving opportunities to other Latinx people. And he also does things his own way, which I really admire. He shoots all of his own shows and everything. He bought an airplane hangar in Austin, Texas. And so everything he shoots comes to him, which is amazing. He's someone I really admire and I've gone to know people in his family and it just seems like a really solid group of people who are really inspiring. We are at 104. Do we have any final questions before we wrap up? Looks like Rose is heading out as well. Clalo, you are muted. There we go. Fernanda, tell us what you're working on right now. If you can, if you can't, that's fine. But where we can find you and where we can, you can always come to the Super Friends Facebook group so you can connect with everyone else here. It's a private group so that we can do all the cheese may in private. As you can tell, I really love talking about writing. It's my passion and my love. And I was really excited to talk to you guys. So if you ever want to chat about the nuts and bolts, I geek out over it. The only person who wants to talk about it in my house is my cat and he falls asleep every time. What am I working on? I'm trying to develop a lot of different projects and doing film rewrites. I got my first job to adapt a book into a feature. And then I'm also just writing my own film stuff because film is really a huge passion for me. And I just wrote a new play. It took me four years to write and talk all about that process. And yeah, just being in the present is what I'm doing right now. It's very hard to do, but life has forces all to just be in the present. And that's what I'm doing. So any parting advice for all our writers here? Never take no. Take no as a starting point. There's always a yes. Maybe three. It's like knocking on doors.  You go to the next door, you say no. Maybe two doors down. There was that yes that you were waiting for. All it takes is one yes, even if you've had 500 notes. Yeah, I've heard a different variation of which like no, it just means not yet. Is that going to be the name of your film production company La Pulga? All right, Fernanda, gracias por venir con nosotros hanging out with us. Thank you so much.  I'd love talking about story. Yes. And let's all feel really confident when we sit down to write, even if the muses are not visiting us. There's always something we can do. We can think of scenes that we might write tomorrow. We can outline. Don't give up. Like confidence is what separates writers.  Yeah, for sure. Thank you guys.  Thank you. Thank you guys so much. So good to see familiar faces. Everybody say goodbye to Fernanda. Thank you. Bye. Gracias.