I would say, though the analogy is different, but it is quite sumptuous. And another fascinating fact today is like Mr. Ashwini Taneja has been on our platform price, that every time we come out, especially on the law of PMLA, beyond law CLC, then in that eventuality, we have always been having people with different platforms of different knowledge. Once we had two judges, one Mr. Anil Dave, former judge of the Supreme Court of India, along with him was Justice Vinith Kuthari, a judge of the Madras High Court. And the common point running between them, common thread running was that all were chartered accountants and men of immense knowledge. Today we have three speakers of different diverse knowledge, but common thread again running amongst them is that, undoubtedly that they are men of immense knowledge, but they believe that knowledge cannot be restricted to one person. The more they share, the more the nation grows. And they personally feel that once the foundation of any knowledge is good, then the nation develops in its right perspective. We are talking that we should have a nation which has a future vision only is when there is a decimation of knowledge. As they say, each one plant one. Here on this platform, we have not believed that each one should plant one. But because a large number of participants on the platform, they are also live on the Facebook and Mr. Suresh Prabhu's face is all live. So as they say, I was just recollecting that there used to be a common mathematics question. Let's assume one sheep is having the grass of particular level and let's assume how many hundred sheeps will do. So it's the same way let's assume we have a people of 5,000 people watching us live. So 5,000 people for one hour will be having an immense knowledge session. They would be enriched. Amongst us, we have Mr. Suresh Prabhu who is four times member of parliament from the Lok Sabha and he's also the Rajasabha MP. It shows the fact that for a person it's very, very difficult for a common man even with the political ambitions to win an election once. But if a person wins four times and then he's nominated to Rajasabha. Rajasabha nomination, it's a factor of means that he's acknowledged for his knowledge and his winning of elections on Lok Sabha means that he's a man of masses and a person who is a combination of Rajasabha as well as Lok Sabha it shows that he's grounded to the people at large and Rajasabha shows people also acknowledge him for his intellectual knowledge. And for that reason, if one goes to the resume of Suresh Prabhu as a normal inquisitive human being especially like we are Punjabi, they say Punjabi means he will acknowledge the facts later. First he will try to more like a Google. He would like to see what is the insights. If one starts reading the resume itself, as we commonly say that people we have always brought people with immense knowledge. You can even take one and a half hour only explaining the bio data, the knowledge what he has dissipated during the entire time. Mr. Suresh Prabhu is a former Railway Minister, Civil Aviation Minister and so on and so on. He's a chartered accountant by profession. His knowledge as a chartered accountant. Also is to the such effect that people wish to learn from him. Each word he speaks itself is a worth gold that one can only seep in and just cherish it. As we said on the previous date that once it's a gold, thankfully any participant who's coming out here he doesn't get the notice that there is money laundering at your end because you're having knowledge which is worth gold. And amongst us we have Honorable Mr. Justice Manmohan Singh who is a former judge of Delhi High Court. He has been the chairman of the KMLA, the key topic which we are discussing today. And he is also presently the chairman of the intellectual property. And I believe once he's with the intellectual property, it goes without saying that he's the right person to be chosen for the intellectual property. I would say it is not for the purposes of controlling the intellectual property. By his coming on this platform, it shows that his intellect carries the property itself out here. That's the worth of Justice Manmohan Singh. And the word Manmohan Singh itself is... And then we have amongst us Mr. Ashwini Taneja. I could have stopped saying that Mr. Taneja is thrice on our platform. He needs no introduction. But whenever he comes he brings a different audience because he's just like a Pied Piper of Hamlin. What we read in our childhood days, he came and he took the children to the world itself. But here what is the will? The will is of deep knowledge of insights which he gives. And that is a will that people don't want to come out because it's a platform where we all share our knowledge. And again the motto of sharing is caring and our motto beyond law CLC would be mean. That we do not just discuss law, we also discuss anything which is beyond law. And we have a politician, a judge and a lawyer, Mr. Ashwini Taneja who is also a former ITAT member. I think it's one of the best platforms where we can discuss on anti-money laundering law. And difference in law and practice. It's a topic which on the first brush itself looks very fascinating. It's very rare that we can take a topic from its origin to the end to conclude that the intent of the legislature is different. That is what is contemplated in the books and how it is being practiced. The final answers from people of the stature of Mrs. Suresh Prabhu, Justice Malmohan Singh and Ashwini Taneja will help us to unfold the areas, the grey areas which are in the minds of anyone. Number two, the persons who do not have the insights of PMLA. But yes, it's a topic for any professional or any person because it's not restricted to professionals. It is also a person who is having immense wealth and he feels that he could be in a loop on the wrong side of law. Why not have an insight? And let's assume that there's someone who is also right. He also feels that he should have the insights that sometimes as we were earlier discussing, somebody is looped in the law of PMLA. Then is he actually a victim? Or once we hear three intellectual people and then we have Mr. Ekhemka and Mr. Das who will further give insights. I am reminded that when we have a platform of 5.3 originally on the Dias and then two more. It will be just again that it is just like Pandav who will give the knowledge. And it will be an immense knowledge to be cherished not only for today, for all times to come. I think I shouldn't be coming in between three intellectual people. People will say that two wise people were talking. Then the third just came in. Then the fourth person asked just like Mr. Ekhemka. He asked Mr. Prabhu, who is he? He said he is otherwise. Thank you sir. Over to you Mr. Suresh Prabhu. We are honored that you have joined us. We are humbled by the way you have accepted our invitation. We are all humbled by all three of you. Thank you sir. Thank you. One introduction of sir I wanted to give before sir. Actually Vikas Bhai you forgot to mention Suresh sir is our Sherpa. He is popularly known as chosen by our honorable Prime Minister. Popularly known as G20 Sherpa. And this is very contextual thing in today's discussion. Because the G20 summit in which this law with regard to anti-money laundering is going to be a special topic is being hosted by India and under all guidance and supervision of and leadership and representation of Suresh Prabhu. And we are sure under his guidance this law will take its dimensions not only in India but at global platform also. So I will not come in the way and we present to you Honorable Suresh Prabhu. Thank you sir. Sir please. Thank you. Thank you Taneja Ji. I am very honored by the fact that none other than Justice Manmohan Singh Ji will be actually participating in this. And then we have got this Distinguished Chimkaji also Mandir Ji and all others are going to be actually going to really enrich the discussion that is going to follow soon after my talk because they will be enriching it. I will be rather making it poorer. So they will be doing the job when actually I stop speaking and then they will take it from me. As you know we all the world the big challenge of dealing with this aspect of economic offenses and that is the money laundering part of it. Actually originally the people were worried about the effect of illicit trade may be drugs, ammunition or many other forms which actually the money earned from there was now getting into the reality by layering or by money laundering. And therefore this topic become a very hot important topic. And worldwide there is actually growing concern about this. And therefore they are going into the PMLA part of it which all of you are so expert in dealing with. Let me just give a flavor of it from what Taneja Ji my dear friend mentioned about the G20 aspect of it. You know G20 is a grouping as you know of 86% of the global GDP. Of course now the global GDP itself is plummeting. So therefore but share will still remain. And the problem that G20 faces is to deal with some of the global challenges. I must thank our unable permission then because he has been spreading this anti money laundering issues in the global forums very easily. And that is a very large agenda. One is to deal with economic offenders when they flee the country where they commit the offence and try to take a refuge in some other country which offers them some sort of cruelty. And therefore the Prime Minister Modi's contention being that why do all countries in the world try to agree that in economic offence if one city is committed in any other country the world itself will take benefit and then therefore they will apprehend a culprit and then they are to deport as well as to face a conflict. At the same time while money laundering is important there are other aspects of the economic offences. May be really related not directly related to this but something which we call as a charter of content which Mr. Taneja is a very distinguished member of the Institute is what is called as BPS. Base erosion and profit sharing. But what happens is the taxation where it should really take place in the country where the profit accrued and therefore if you really do not have a per-international system to deal with this then probably the taxes will escape, the income will escape being taxed at the right place. Now this has again assumed a different proportion what you call normally in Indian context a transfer pricing issue because if one country, one company has multiple operations or one group has multiple companies and they therefore try to put their profits in different companies by just using the most of the transfer pricing because it all depends upon where the end product is going to be sold to the market. That's where the profits will be taken now in India because of GST finally at the level of consumption taxes will be corrected. But transfer pricing ensures that you can actually place and allow a taxation to be to some extent reduced by way of playing with the various provisions of it. So on an international scale the base erosion profit sharing assumes great importance particularly when we have got global supply chains, global value chains where for the end product may be assembled, may be an iPhone in one country but the different components of it may be sourced from different layers and that's how that will go. Now this is not directly money laundering issue but this is something to deal with the international dimension of the economic law. PMLA has been passed by the Indian parliament, has been amended from time to time and now we have a lot of evidence available as is efficacy as well as the type of shortcomings that come into it. But when we deal with economic offenses per se there are different dimensions to it. Like in PMLA the whole idea is that wherever money is ill-gotten for some sort of a source which is not really allowed by the law and then it is converted into some form wherein it now changes its color. So how do you prevent it, how do you acquisition of property coming out of ill-gotten wealth should be properly treated. So various aspects of that are dealt with and as my friend said in the beginning the intention of the legislation may be won but when it is implemented how it gets implemented is something else. So is there any dichotomy, is there any difference between the intention and the actual practice of it is something which all of you as experts will I am sure will be pointing out and it will my duty as a member of parliament to take it back to the legislature and see how best it can be addressed. But as I was saying the whole agenda with G20 to deal with economic offenses per se to deal with such issues which deprives us of ultimate revenues because of the way the cruel businesses are transacted. Now again new dimension will be added to it will be e-commerce where e-commerce will be taxed. The e-commerce again passes to various states and ultimately you buy a product in India but it may be passing through various geographical borders, custom borders and eventually therefore how that should be taxed is an issue and that is something which the world is grappling with today. How do you deal with issues related to international taxation which again if not observed properly will assume a role of an economic offense and therefore economic offenses per se cannot be dealt with unless we have a national legislation like the PMLA but we also understand that unless the national legislation has a limitation because that can be implemented only in a sovereign territory where the country has a sovereign power to implement it but the dimension of that offense may go beyond a territory of a national boundary and therefore how do you deal with such issues will also assume important. As Mr. Tanej Ji was saying India will be hosting in 2022 the first time the G20 summit. Sir, sorry to interrupt you. Suresh Ji, sorry to interrupt you. Could you just slightly come closer because some people are writing on the chat box the voice is cracking. I am sorry that I have interrupted you. No, no, no. So I am just saying that 2022 India will be hosting it and at that time will be a good opportunity to bring all such big talent that is available now will be contributing to this debate and discourse on in cases how as India take a lead in dealing with economic offenses globally. How can we create an international system which can address the issue very effectively and what is that roadmap one must have to make it happen. I think that's what will be a very good input that you can give it to me which I can take it back to the G20 community and actually work on those issues. So I will stop here only because we are seeing such great experts who are going to talk about it. So I would be guided by your inputs. I have some other webinar to attend but I will definitely take this because this is all recorded with this book as I can listen to it later. But thank you very much for inviting me. And let me assure you one thing that we will work as partners because such great intellectual capital that is going to display a little later is the one which can actually provide light. As to how we should progress in such matters. So thank you very much. And thank you my friend for being this introduction as well as putting me into such galaxy of people will be speaking on this. Thank you very much. And what a wonderful assurance given by sir that we all will be working as partners. So that means everybody's voice here will be heard will be very useful. So whatever we will be deliberating whatever we will be discussing that whatever the problems people are facing on the one hand everybody wants to implement the law. But on the other hand when the when the enforcement is law enforcement of the law is done it is noted that some gap comes up between the intention of the parliament and the enforcement agencies and the way law is implemented. So all those things we will point out today we will try to describe them in a more candid manner as more as possible. And then we'll put forth before sure sir so that it can reach to the right channels and the fair implementation of the law can take place so that each of us can become contributor to the growth of the economy. Very well said sir and we are really thankful for that. So Ray G we are falling short of words despite the fact that we know everyone has 24 hours but how one manages the time that is paramount. First I said that you came at six when it was the time six that first lesson is learned. Then despite the fact that you have a hectic should you get you squeeze in and reminded of the famous quote that they say time is like a gas. If you give a open vessel it will keep on expanding and you cannot control it. But if you contract it then you will have in the vessel in the shape you want and you have funneled that time in the right perspective. I'm quite sure that your presence itself triggers of the right issue and you're saying that what we say here you will put it across to the men who matter and men who matters is one of you. And we couldn't have called something better where we wanted to speak something and there could be the message conveyed. Then this they say strike when the iron is hot and iron is hot to mean stay to mean stayed there in that it gives the best result. So once we have you amongst us we feel that we have actually struck with the iron is hot and amongst us we have just one more thing. He needs no further introduction his insights would be the right thing which will we will take a thing forward and then Mr. Taneja as usual will come in his own flow. Thank you sir. Thank you for giving us the entire time Mr. Suresh Prabhu we are just. We have no words to express our gratitude over to Mr. Manmohan sir. Thank you. Good evening to all many many thanks from Prabhuji I've learnt a lot. Prabhuji has given overall picture and I really appreciate it and certain things today I've come to know. I will just first explain that how this act has come that is the prevention of money laundering act 2000. You know I joined the practice as advocate in April 1980. You know at that time all the offenses economic offenses or cheating or other matters were being dealt in two side. One is on civil side one is on criminal side civil side basically we used to people used to file the suit for recovery of the amount. The suit for cheating suit for defamation and on the criminal side IPC was working. It was noticed by the government. Notice by the courts. It was noticed by the advocate that many times when the ultimately matters decided in favor of the state or in favor of the private party who has been cheated person is missing. The person is missing or he has already disposed of the property or he has purchased the Benami property from that tainted amount. So in the civil side there was a provision that is order 38 rule rule for the set provision is attachment before judgment. The person basically who has to recover the amount to take action against the party concern under order 38 by moving the petition before the court that here is a person who is the offender of economic offenses. Here is a person who has cheated me. There is a person who is involved in involving of involving cheating. So basically his property should be attached or he should be restrained not to go outside India. But on the criminal side. There was no provision. IPC state provision. So government thought why not basically we should bring a law on the suspect that till the final case is decided on the criminal side under the IPC. His property should be attached and he should be dealt with the separate that is the prevention of money laundering act. So this act has come and you will you will come to know that there were very few cases at that time very few cases till 1994 or 1990 2014 or 2015 because many times it has been seen that the chairmen used to come one or two times before the appellate terminal to hear the matters. But after 15 I have noticed that plenty of work is added there. I can tell you that the court now deal with the binami properties. They are dealing with the family. They are dealing with the narcotic. They are dealing with all the cases of money laundering. So plenty of work is there more than six seven thousand cases are pending before the appellate authority. This is the overall picture. This law has come and rightly so because something should be preserved till the matter is decided and side by side case may also go under these acts under the before the special code. This was the scheme of the act. The act itself that is PMLA there is a schedule of offenses where there is a complete chart which case can be dealt under the PMLA. The ED is authorized to attach the property under section five of the act. And he it is also empowered to search and Caesar and retain the property and record within the meaning of section 70 to 21 of the act. We must basically we must see that it is a special act and it all the provisions in the acts are very stringent provision. These provisions have to be applied very strictly. The meaning of these provisions cannot be changed. Different meaning cannot be given. So being a special act, the ED is in power to attach the property. If we read section five, it is clearly mentioned that the attachment of the property involving money laundering. And these are the punchline of section five because that is a starting point that the property must be the property involved must be from money laundering. And other condition is that the person the person must have in possession of proceed of crime by by way of property cash by way of property by way of cash by way of shares and other movable and immobile property where he is likely to dispose of these things basically must see the IO at that time. And before passing of the order before passing of the order, he must have material in his hand after the investigation. An investigation can only start if the charge sheet is filed filed under the under the IPC section 173 of IPC or any written complaint. The before passing the order material must be discussed and discuss in the reason to believe and why this property is being attached. If the because under the mandatory provision, it must be in writing, writing and it has to be disclosed by the IO that if the property is not attached, the proceed of crime may be concealed. If these satisfactions are not there, the attachment order is a illegal order. Now, during the course of the tendency of so many matters, it was noticed by the government that many people like I don't want to explain everybody knows the name. They were cheating the banks. They were the basis of the bank guarantee or they are taking the government money in illegal manner or they are taking the loan from the banks and they are running away whenever they come to know that something is going to happen. They will run away. So, second proviso was added where the is given power to attach the property even without tendency of charge sheet under section 173 IPC. So, procedure here in the section 17 to 21 is also that remain the same and it has to be satisfied that in seconds proviso that why basically property is being attached without the charge sheet because it is a very risky, risky proviso. Suppose somebody, one partner wants to settle this score with the another partner and he can make the, he can file the FIR because FIR cannot be derived as per the full bench of the Supreme Court that anybody will make time efficient case before the police police has to register the FIR. And the FIR, suppose the police will register or attach the property against another partner, it will be totally basically misuse of the power. Therefore, in second proviso if somebody will read under section five, it clearly says that this provision can be involved only in emergency purposes. If party like, I don't want to take the name, very big names are there. If somebody will come to know that here is a person who has taken the money of the property and he has booked the ticket or he has entered into an agreement with the third party and he will run away within two, three days. And as far as the charge sheet is concerned, there is no limitation by the police for filing the charge sheet. It may take some time, it may take some years. So in the emergency provision, the attachment can be done even without filing the charge sheet, barely on the basis of the FIR. But basically I feel that I should exercise this discretion very carefully, very carefully and reason to believe separately has to be given why this exercise is being done by the officer under the special circumstances. I agree with Mr. Prabhuji that there are so many amendments as per situation. And many amendments, I agree, explanations are also given. Many explanations, I have noticed that those are not gel with the provision. Those explanations are added as per the circumstances, as per the judgment given by the High Court in order to like section 45, I don't want to say that although judgments are there, but amendments are made explanations are also given. And in the earlier act, it is pertinent to mention that if the accused is acquitted, accused is acquitted in predicated offence, the property cease to exist. But now amendment of various provisions in section 5 as well as in section 8 state that PMLA is an independent act, even the accused is acquitted in under the IPC provision, the proceeding against the party under the PMLA may continue. It is a very debatable point, many judgments are there, contrary judgments by the various high courts and ultimately now this matter is subjudiced before the Supreme Court. The Supreme Court will decide and once the person is acquitted, what are the consequences. Now, if the attachment order is passed then the matter is referred to the adjudicating authority for confirmation. There is a complete procedure under section 5 for filing the response and reply. Once the adjudicating authority confirmed the attachment, ED is to file the charge sheet before the special court where the proceeding of dedicated offences are already pending. Now there are two routes. One is basically if party wants to litigate with the ED for attachment of property because of the reason that subsection 4 of section 8, the ED is entitled to take the possession of the property. If he wants to take up the matter before the equivalent remnant, he can file the appeal immediately under section 26 of the act and get the stay with the condition or without condition. But at the same time, he has also to contest the matter before the special court where the trial is to be conducted in both the sides, both the sides in IPC offences as well as PMLA offences. So this special court will ultimately decide the matter after trial. Now as far as section 26 of appeal is concerned, the said appeal is only pertaining to the confirmation of the order by the adjudicating authority. And the adjudicating authority will confirm the attachment. The appellant criminal will just decide whether the attachment was valid attachment or it is not a valid attachment. The authority will set aside the order or confirm the order. If the order is confirmed that then basically the agree party has a right to file the appeal under section 42 of the PMLA act. So these are the basically provision where the same procedure is to be followed under section 17 to 21. These are the provisions which are very relevant section 5 and 17. Many amendments are made. I am of the opinion that no time has come. Many explanations are added. Many amendments are made. There is a little bit confusion also. One compact act should come. This act should be repealed and everything should be added after the debate of the parliament so that systematically it is to be incorporated in the act because it has a very wide impact in future. And I totally agree with Mr. Prabhuji whatever he has mentioned and I agree that it is necessary. This act must be necessary in order to curb the corruption and to improve the economy as well as the menace of the drug crime and for attachment of property. These steps are very much necessary under this act but no basically but my opinion is that check and balances in all the institution are very much necessary. If stringent provisions are added in any act if the penalties are used against the person being a special act in addition to general law already available because it is a special act. It has been basically it is in addition to the general law. So there are few points I will give my suggestion because I have seen so many judgment. I have seen so many provision. I have seen so many act under this law. The first point is proceed of crime. No, the proceed of crime means that the property must be purchased from the tainted money. There is a there is a dispute regarding section to you that the property can also be attached of the third party of value of the value thereof. This is a provision. It is mentioned in section to you I will just read one line section to you who you schedule offenses or the value of any property. No, no doubt, although everybody has a different opinion, but the point here is only this much that any the authority as well as IO must first of all identify the proceed of crime. How much is the proceed of crime? No doubt. I agree. If somebody has has has invested the money in some property of the tainted amount and property has increased his value. And I agree that the original money proceed proceed of crime as well as the increase of the value of the money is a proceed of crime. Suppose somebody has invested in share market and share share value is increased and profit will also come as a proceed proceed of crime. Similarly, if the value of the property is decreased, the remaining amount can be recovered from the party concern. But at the same time, one cannot say suppose the person has as having two pocket one basically in one pocket clean money is there and another pocket proceed of crime is there. The ED or the IO is only entitled to attack the proceed of crime, not the entire money money, which is lying in two pockets, you know, so I say that the target should be on proceed of crime. The time has gone now that just for the sake of 100 rupees, the property worth 1000 rupees cannot be attached because because of the reason that each and every order of the ED each and every order of the adjudicating authority, each and every order of the appellate terminal has to be examined by the higher court. It is a matter of property. The matter cannot be closed where the adjudicating authority will give the reason.  If the property is attached more than the proceed of crime, then basically there will be problem because the party will challenge by filing of the read petition or by filing of the appeal of the higher court and higher court will examine as per merit of the case. The higher court will not see the high court will definitely identify the proceed of crime and they will say, yes, here's a proceed of crime, secure this amount, or if any profit is made secure that profit also, but rest of the property is released. Sometimes I notice in many cases that if the matter will go to the higher court, high court or the division bench of the high court, then they have seen that the proceed of crime is 100 rupees, no profit is made or if the profit is made for 50 rupees, it will come to 150 and property of 10,000 is attached. They quash everything. Why basically we should take the risk? This should not be taken. I advise IO who identify the proceed of crime and they should, they should attach only that property. And secondly, and that property because section 51 is very clear. It says if the property is involved in money laundering. Suppose assuming the accused party has spent the money or he has, he has, he has thrown the money in the Arabian tea or he has played a gamble and he has lost entire money. It has to be attached to the other property of the accused. Suppose the accused has no other property. Then basically I feel that the property of grandfather or property of maternal uncle or property of Bhua cannot be attached because he is the brother because brother has committed the offense. Therefore, a property of relation should be attached. That is unless some link and nexus is there. If link and nexus is there, it can be attached. Otherwise it cannot be attached. So I see that the person who is handling the matter must be aware because matter will go to the hair code. And if suppose the authorities totally fail to recover the amount directly or indirectly, he has no property. He's totally become a beggar. Then it is a bad luck. You know there is a provision in court of swill procedure also. Suppose somebody takes the money from the bank and he has eaten the money. He has no other resources. He has no property. Money cannot be recovered. So he has to go to the jail. Six month imprisonment is there under the provision of order 21. You can't say that property of somebody else will be attached unless without any link and nexus. So one should be very careful. Secondly, reason to believe. Reason to believe I see. I have been saying and I advise the IOs and authorities also that Christian cut reason to believe should be given. You know, it is not necessary that the officer must give the reason to believe for 20 pages, 30 pages or 50 pages. Reason to believe maybe in two pages, one and a half pages. You have to write down. Only there are fundamental principle that the basic thing you have to mention. Here is the pursuit of crime. Here is the property purchase and here is the material in my hand. And if we will not attach the property, he will run away or he will conceal the pursuit of crime. So these are the basic things. Otherwise, suppose cut and paste procedure is adopted, the court will notice because every order I tell you because from my experience from the high court, every order passed by any authority, whether CBI, income tax office, it has to be read by more than 20 people, 30 people, judicial officer. First, basically it will adjudicating authority will examine it. Then basically appellant partner will examine it. Then high court single bench will examine, decent bench will examine, then the Supreme Court will examine, then all the council will read the order wherever the lacuna is there, they will pinpoint. One cannot say whatever I have to do, I will do and I will just get away. That is not the way at all. And you must have seen recent two orders passed by the Supreme Court where the bail is granted and they have mentioned about the cut and paste chapter that how the confusion has occurred due to the oversight. I know, I know there is basically oversight is always there. If authority, I can commit so many mistakes. I can do some discrepancies thing. But the point here is, it is a central law, one should be very careful, officer has to see each and everything. The fact of one case cannot be repeated in other case, because it has been noticed that coma by coma, the reason to believe have been repeated. It should not be done in particularly in this type of matter, because it is a very serious matter. You are dealing with the accused party, you are dealing with the parties who have looted the government, you are dealing with the parties who is the offender of our economy, you are dealing with the party who is involved in drug crime. So, one should be very careful. The third thing basically I say, fear hearing should be there. I say no doubt that under the Benjamin Act, under the PMLA Act there is a procedure for hearing. But suppose you just basically say everything should be decided within 180 days and there are about 1000 of cases and the hearing officer has no time. The perfect thing will not come, perfect order will not come, he will just hear because I have been noticing that very short time is given. Even at the evening time, they give 5 or 10 minutes and ultimately the matter decided order is reserved. And then basically take one paragraph here, one paragraph from there and order is passed. And ultimately what is the result? If the matter will go to the hair court, they will examine each and everything and it will be set aside. I don't want that any order passed by the adjudicating authority should be set aside. It should be at the first stage itself, ED as well as the adjudicating authority will see that all the cases must be successful. Rather basically you may register some cases where those are the genuine cases. If you will register the cases of under the specific relief act or dispute between the parties, those are not the subject matter of PMLA. Only basically as per law, which come under the scheme of the act, those should be registered. No doubt investigation can be done. If any link and nexus is there, that person must be dealt with. But in every case you can't say that whatever case is coming and you are just saying it without seeing that it is a matter of recovery, it is a matter of specific performance agreement is involved. The person, it's a civil dispute which is already time barred, 10 years have already been passed, limitation expires and people come to you and file the FIR because there is no time. And you registered the case and ultimately High Court says that the suit is already time barred and three year period has already been expired and FIR and complaint is registered under PMLA after 10 years, how it is possible. So one should be very careful on that and fair hearing should be there. Fair hearing should be there. Hopefully I say that the IO, as well as the officer in adjudicating authority must know evidence act, they must read court of civil procedure, all the latest judgment given by the unable High Court as well as the Supreme Court. Without that, if somebody will sit and take few pairs here or there, that will not be a good order because order has to go to the Supreme Court, they will examine each and every word of the order. So command should be there for IO as well as the adjudicating authority, educated person should involve in the serious matters and although basically adjudicating authority has one judicial officer, I think that there must be more than 5 or 6% should be there and judicial officer should be appointed. Preferably district judge or session judge should be given chance because they know each and everything on finger. So this experience must be exercised in a very careful manner. It is a very serious offense and on technical reason, if the proceedings are quashed, that will not serve the purpose. Government will lose the money, authority will lose the money and they should take care about all the things. Now regarding mortgage property, that is also a very serious thing that you know that roughly I can tell you that when I was a chairman, I've noticed that the banks are claiming, the banks are claiming to recover the amount worth of tax of 2 rupees from the various crook people, they have taken the loan from the bank and I can also tell you that the security of the said amount is less than 10% because they had taken the loan under loan Mela and security is hardly any security is there and at that time and originally security is basically security is given to the bank and at that time the property was not purchased from the proceed of crime. The property was purchased 50 years ago and the original documents are there and because the IO instead of investigating the accused party for remaining authority, because the mortgage property is readily available to the IO, they attach the property of the mortgage property with the bank. Now the banks are coming on appeal, they are saying that these are the mortgage property, then the property were purchased, it was a clean money, then the property was mortgage, if this person was not involved in money laundering, why we should suffer? We should not suffer, we should sell the property and recover the money because banks are in very critical condition. I feel that here is the role of IO or here is the role of ED that no doubt I agree with them that they must recover the amount, they must recover the tainted amount and these basically complaints are registered at the asking of the bank because the bank gives the notice that give me my money they are not giving the money, they are resisting the FIR under section 420, on the basis of 420 the ED will register the case under the PMLA. Now basically bank is losing the property, one side the bank is filing the FIR that we should get the money, we should get the property and here the bank money is stuck. Now the point is no doubt I agree that if the property is purchased from the tainted money from the proceed of crime that property should not be released but why basically bank are in critical condition, why the bank should suffer? Bank should not suffer and we are given the judgment and our judgment was challenged before the high court also, high court by little modification here, there almost confirm the order and me and member, unable member has given so many judgment so that the situation of the bank should be more helpful, they should get some money against the money they have already given. So my request is that this issue should also be solved, although I must appreciate the government as well as the ED that they have pointed out this thing before the government and government has brought the amendment that during the dependency of the proceeding before the special court and application can be filed that I am the innocent party and this property is not involved in money laundering, the property may be released, earlier the stand was different, earlier the stand was unless the final judgment is passed, property should not be released, now after giving the judgment by the appellate tribunal by us, so this amendment has been brought and it is always better that property should be released and the special courts in many cases are releasing the property, earlier appellate tribunal was releasing the property, I totally agree with Prabhuji that this is a very, we have to, we have to curb the corruption, it is a very serious offense, we have to cure our financial system and to cure the economy, we must see that the proceed of crime, proceed of crime or proceed of drug crime must be dealt with the iron hand, thank you so much, thank you. Thank you sir, we are deeply obliged the way you gave the insights, it's a rare occasion that a person who sits on a seat gives the insights which actually are thought to working and once we have Mr. Suresh Prabhu and your good self, I'm just reminded of the famous quote, they say watch your thoughts, they become your words, watch your words, they become your actions, watch your actions, they become your habits, watch your habits, they become your corrective, watch your corrective, it becomes your destiny. So if we have watched everything in the right perspective, then I'm quite sure the lacuna in the PMLA act itself will be resolved in the right perspective, though I'm also reminded of one of the common joke going amongst the doctors, there was not of coronavirus, there's a lot of flu etc. Then somebody asked the doctor how is the season, he said it's a very healthy season, he said that everybody's unwell, he said unwell is a society but the season is healthy for the doctor, it's not a lighter way, nothing doing because the doctors are the true nation warriors as of today. Over to Mr. Ashwin Tuneja, his insights have always been taken with a stride, though amongst us we have Mr. Amit Khemka and Mr. Arun Dash, they will also have the insights as I had been told, they have their own knowledge, immense knowledge will be shared on this platform, we're all highly obliged, especially the beyond law CLC and Punjabi, over to you Mr. Tuneja. Thank you. Thank you Vikas ji for organizing this webinar on such a topic which is going to be need of the country in times to come despite there being a lockdown despite be passing through corona times. But this subject in operation and I will mention the reasons for this that despite this corona period why there we need to enforce anti-enforcement, anti-money laundering law very soon because of some thoughts coming out from the president of FETF financial action task force and this is going to be global need, not only India's need, I will share all those things. And Honourable Justice Manmohan, we are really privileged, honoured and what should I say, we have no words, we are speechless to be with you sir. Sir, I think, I do not know, many few people might be aware of this that you must have heard a lot about Justice Manmohan as a good judge, but I had this privilege of being in his courtroom, and I can say with full conviction that if you really want to learn the quality of a good judge, if suppose some newcomer wants to ask, some new law student wants to ask, how do you define new judge? I would say you need to define, just go into the courtroom of Honourable Justice Manmohan, sit there, and whatever qualities you note down, I think you will find most of them are there. And that is the definition, I think there cannot be anything better. Not only that, as a rule in my office, I was enforcing this, that every new joining will go by rotation, sit in the court of Honourable Justice Manmohan, note down how the justice is being distributed, is being done, how the law is being interpreted, with full humility, with full humanness, but despite that full firmness, and despite the law being vague at many occasions, how purposeful interpretation, and how literal interpretation both are being infused together with a fine blend, I mean something remarkable. And above all, for which I am really die-hard fan of, sir, I am sorry I am taking your precious time, but I can't resist his wonderful human being. And that is how I define a judge, a judge has to be first of all a good human being, automatically competence develops, because the competence is given by the lawyers, but this fairness, the greatness of being a human being cannot be infused by anyone. That is God gifted.  Thank you, thank you. We are getting that benefit, sir. Thank you, sir. And we are really benefited from Honourable Suresh Prabhuji's presence here, because of the reason that whatever we are saying, whatever we are doing, whatever we are talking, it is not going to be confined to merely an academic discussion. He gave me this insurance at personal level also, this apart from giving this assurance at public reform, that Mr. Taneja, whatever shortcomings, whatever problems you are facing, whatever disconnect you are finding between the intention of the parliament and the law way the way it is being implemented, please bring it to our notice. Before the G20 summit starts, we will try to see that these are noted properly and laws amended or laws overhauled or new laws implemented as Honourable Justice Manmohan has mentioned. Because of one reason, apart from various other reasons, now India is not following other countries. In lawmaking, I have also witnessed personally that I am also a member of International Association of Tax Judges and this association conducts its conferences at many parts of the world, that now other countries are following India in terms of lawmaking. It is a different thing that when anti-malay laundering law was passed in India in 1998, when first bill was brought out, it was in persistence to the resolution passed at United Nations. But now, other countries are looking to India to see that how we are dealing with anti-malay laundering law here in India, because India has a land of variety, huge problems. Whatever India brings out, if India can control those problems, any other country can easily do that. So, I mean, everybody is looking towards it, so there are great expectations from G20 summit. So, in the backdrop of that, I will make my deliberations. I have noted down some of the fundamental issues which have been actively raised by Suresh Prabhuji and also by Honourable Justice Manmohan. And these are the real burning issues and also add on something more, which as practitioners I have found, I have seen the pain of the people, how they suffer sometimes helplessly. I have also seen the helplessness of the enforcement agency, how some unscrupulous people trouble this agency, that is enforcement directorate. So, I have tried to harmonise the situation of both, I will put before you, my experience is my observations. Before that, I am really thankful to all of you, my professional brothers and sisters, for spending your valuable time and for making this session a wonderful session by your keen participation. And thankful to Amit Khemkaji, who is now my partner in RRA Legal, but also my guru in terms of legal jurisprudence, particularly criminal jurisprudence. And Anil Agarwalji, I just saw him, a good expert in PIMLA, Honourable Shri Arun Dash, and all of them, I am sorry I cannot take the names of dignitaries sitting off the dias. So, firstly, what is this money laundering? This first question comes to our mind, money laundering. I will be beginning with the fundamentals so that those who are having first brush with the subject are comfortable in this tour which I am going to take with regard to anti-money laundering law in our country, which is contained in Prevention of Money Laundering Act 2002. So, friends, first of all, what is money laundering? Because we confuse it sometimes with the conversion of black money into white. Is it that only? Or is it something more or something different? Friends, it is different because converting black to white, it is taxivism, and taxivism is taken care of by income tax law. So, what is money laundering precisely? That is what we have to understand. And how and why its need arose in our country? That is also for us to understand because this is very essential for the success of an economy. To stop the leakages in an economy, it is very, very essential to bring out and implement a very robust anti-money laundering law that has been experienced in many countries. And India followed that mandate and now India is taking a leading position as I mentioned. So, Vikaji, I will be sharing my screen so if you could kindly enable share. Yes, yes. And I will request my professional brothers and sisters not to do annotations. Do not draw any lines on the PPT, it will trouble others. And though I will also do my... Mr. Tuneja, you are well versed. You can stop the annotation at your own end. Okay, sir. Okay, sir. I will do that. Can not, sir. Abhi, disabled are as a share screen. I will just... Mukherjee kindly disabled your screen sharing. We all know that we are on the Zoom. We are quite grateful that you are sharing that part, but could you just disable yourself from that part? Riddhiman Mukherjee, it's a humble request. Anyway, you can do that. If Riddhiman Mukherjee is not agreeing, then we have no other option but to remove it. Yes. Yes, okay. Yes, now it's enabled. Yes, now we can see. My PPTs are visible, I believe. Yes. Okay. And I am audible. Perfect. So, I will be dealing with certain practical aspects of the law dealing with the money laundering. First of all, as I shared with you, what is money laundering? Before that, how this law came to our country. In fact, it was felt by many countries worldwide that, I mean, financial system, any money laundering done is not only detrimental for the financial system of the country, but also to its integrity and sovereignty. These are the words which were used in the UN Council also. So, therefore, a financial action tax force was constituted under the aegis of the United Nations. And thereafter, certain resolutions were passed that those who want to be member of United Nations and really wants to take the benefit of all those, then they have to bring out domestically legislation to curb the means of money laundering. And that is how in persistence to that. First of all, in 1998, anti money laundering bill was presented, and which took the shape of prevention of money laundering act in 2002, which was effective from 2005. So, what is exactly money laundering. Before that, as I share, as I was sharing with you that the, that the connect of the enforcement directorate or the law dealing with the money laundering is going to be very, very wide. I mean, you cannot even imagine even those areas where you could not have imagined that, oh, it could be a subject matter of money laundering law or enforcement directorate. I will show certain examples where you will be really amused to notice that, but it is a fact. Before I say all advocates chartered accountants may they may not be, you know, willing to engage in this practice, but they should have some basic awareness about this law. Now this chimpanzees were attached by enforcement directorate, you must have heard this news in times of India. And I was also like you surprised how chimpanzees and enforcement director how it happened. When I studied, I found that, as honorable justice Manmohan very aptly said that pursuits of crime can be attached. And pursuits of crime is something which is derived out of commission of scheduled offense. So there is a great, you know, very exhaustive list of scheduled offenses. So one of the list, one of the items there is, you know, violation of Wildlife Protection Act. So a person did violation of Wildlife Protection Act while taking hold of these chimpanzees in his custody. He made some full certificate also and did violation of that act. So by doing the violation, he committed a scheduled offense. And that is how he got in custody of these, he got the custody of these chimpanzees. And there that is how it becomes a pursuits of crime. And under section five of PMLA pursuits of crime can be attached. So that is how PD attached chimpanzees. And fortunately they were handed over to the zoo authorities for the safe appeal. And that is how it happened, you see. And you must have said that Moody's Benamilo has companies running for cover. So on the other one hand we have anti-money London law already, then recently new Benamilo was introduced. So if we make fusion of the two, I would say now the situation has come that now the cost of non-compliance is that much higher. Earlier the cost of compliance was higher, non-compliance was lower. Now the cost of non-compliance has become too much high. So we must as a professional, as a citizen of this country align or realign our life, the way we used to think, the way we used to talk, the way we used to behave, the way we used to live, the way we used to do our business. We must align real life because the spectrum is so wide and there is going to be strong interplay between various agencies. So on the one hand there is going to be practically coordinated action on the part of many agencies like you see multi-agency scrutiny is going to take place where in ED enforcement directed, that is income tax department, Venami Prohibition Unit, SFIO, CBI, they all will work in tandem by using the data analytics techniques. So therefore on the one hand practically there has to be interplay between the agencies and legal scenario is such that the way laws have been drafted are such that they are going to have strong interplay with each other. So in our last session we discussed various concepts of interplay, how Venami law will have interplay with anti-money laundering law and income tax law similarly. Anti-money laundering law is also going to have strong interplay between other laws. So therefore knowledge of basic awareness of all these laws is essential even if a person may be doing practice in one area only. While doing transaction, a person, a business entity, an entrepreneur, whichever maybe has to examine that his transaction is legal, perfectly legal from all angles. No lonely tax angle from anti-money laundering law angle, PMLA that is from Venami law angle, that is PBPT from FEMA angle and from companies at Tangle and few more. Then offence of money laundering coming back to that. So in common parlance the way we understand money laundering is it is not conversion of black to white only because that will fall in mere tax evasion and that will not be understood from the tax, from the term money laundering. So what is more there in than hidden? And the more there in is that there has to be first of all an offence, offence which is criminal and doing any criminal act and which is recognized as an offence under this law and from commission of that offence some proceeds are earned and those proceeds which are earned from commission of offence are portrayed to be some proceeds as if they were not earned from commission of an offence meaning by some illegal proceeds are earned from illegal activities and those are portrayed to be clean money as if they are not from crime but some other legitimate activity. So in other words legitimizing the proceeds is money laundering. So as shown in this graph there has to be first of all illegal dirty money earned from any legal activity it is converted and then it becomes legitimate or white money. That is in common parlance there should be some dispute on legal understanding which we will definitely discuss which was touched upon by Honorable Justice Manmohan keeping in view the recent amendment in section 3 we will definitely discuss that about also. So these were the activities which many people have been engaged in this anti-money laundering activities some of which is not quite popular is obtaining loan through fraudulent means from the bankers. All these notorious cases which you are hearing Neera Modi, Vijay Malia, Yes Bank, so for sterling biotics so forth and so on these are nothing but obtaining loans from fraudulent means that is the allegation and that is how PMLA comes into picture how I will definitely put before you because some of the issues which were raised I have noted down firstly the issue was raised by Suresh Prabhu with regard to BEPS that is based erosion and profit sharing by various MNCs and then loss in Honorable Justice Manmohan raised a very very prominent issue that is the loss being caused to the bankers because of default from the borrowers and the loss getting aggravated by on account of their approaching to the ED. It should have benefited them but they are rather or incurring more losses by approaching ED for the corrective action. Then some of the viewers have raised some queries in chat box with regard to how the bank defaults come into PMLA regime and how to distinguish between POC and known POC that is proceeds of crime and known proceeds of crime and they want me also to discuss Nikesh Tarajan's judgment of Honorable Supreme Court. I will be covering all of them friends. Then first of all what is the legislation that is covering PMLA in our country as you all know this anti-money laundering is governed by the prevention of money laundering in 2002, enacted in 2002 but made effective from 2005 and the enforcement agencies and enforcement directorate and the executive functions under the act like search, seizure, provisional attachment, arrest they have got the power of arrest also unlike income tax department and that is what makes this law quite harsh that because of arrest because of fear of arrest and of course attachment so two things firstly attachment power is not there in the income tax department as much they have here in the enforcement directorate and then arrest also. Binami prohibition unit have power of attachment but they do not have power of arrest then of course prosecution criminal prosecution powers immense powers have been granted to ED to enforce this law properly. Then other agency which helps the enforcement agency or the people affected by the action of the enforcement agencies is adjudicating authority. You must have heard this name adjudicating authority. In fact these two this word adjudicating has been used differently under different legislation. In FEMA law it has been used in different context. Here in PMLA it has been used in the context whereby it is a quasi judicial authority established under the act which exclusively adjudicates matters connected with the incidental to the attachment and retention of the property records. The authority has also the power to lay down its own procedure. So friends this authority is not dealing with the criminal criminal trial part associated with this law but only the civil part that is the property attachment part though it may be connected in one way or the other with the criminal part directly or indirectly but it is dealing only with the attachment of the properties and connected matters to for example retention of records retention of properties attachment of properties etc. Then the adjudicating authority has been closed with the powers of civil code regarding the issues of someone production of documents and evidence. Unfortunately I have not found adjudicating authority sufficiently equipped with the requisite infrastructure to use this power in appropriate manner. So it is not with due respect time seeing properly functioning like a civil code even while the actions are going to be very very significant actions even if they confront the attachment or release the attachment but the way civil codes are functioning the way they record the witnesses take the evidence the same procedure is not being followed in majority of the cases but and it consists of chairman and two other members the chairman and members are persons having expertise in the field of law administration finance and account the law requires the PMLA law requires that one person should have expertise in law and other members should have expertise in administration or finance and accounting so the idea was they can infuse the knowledge but unfortunately the cases are heard singly in single member constitution so since it is heard in single member constitution fusion is not taking place so since fusion is not taking place the wholesome justice the holistic justice is not likely to be seen in the orders passed by the attribute authority because of the basic flaw the restructuring has been done then next is appellate tribunal that is where we start getting the relief because it is the first forum only where the application of mind is done I should not be noted of seeing that justice is the application of mind is not done at all down below this authority but what I am trying to say is because other authorities are functioning like executive authorities they are not in a position to the way the pattern of working of in our country has become the judicious application starts only before tribunal be it income tax law be it PMLA be it binamilo only there may be flaw in working there may be certain constraints there may be certain reasons behind it but the fact today is that the judicial application of mind starts only before that tribunal and particularly when the this august institution is headed by a judge or a former judge from a high court then of course all the fundamentals of the jurisprudence the basic thread of the constitution is upheld is respected is maintained and that is how the law is implemented to the in a most fair manner to the extent possible in a given circumstance so it has been established under section 25 of PMLA though one problem is also there which I must share with you and I salute to honorable Justice Manmohan that despite this problem things were done to the best possible manner and the problem is that this tribunal is also burdened heavily burdened or burdened with ample work because this tribunal has today the jurisdiction of not only PMLA it has the jurisdiction of dealing with NDPS narcotics cases FEMA cases OFIPOSA, SOFIMA and then the latest addition is binami law which is bringing out huge work and I mean no infrastructure so I mean there were two or three members at any given point of time and the jurisdiction is pan India one bench only despite that the judgments which have been passed under PMLA and binami law I mean I would say par excellence but a recent judgment how the law has been analyzed despite these subjects being complex subjects you can see any judgment on PMLA side or on binami law all those are most of them are available on the PMLA website you can see judgments in binami law for example I remember very good judgment passed by the honorable tribunal wherein they have laid down the concept of burden of proof which otherwise would have been you know, threshed out or decided maybe in five years down the line so the job of the high court has been made much much easier because the law declared by the Supreme Court has been analyzed so on that platform honorable high courts can easily now decipher the law reinforce the law in but a manner high courts limit appropriate so once a person is agreed maybe ED or any noticy or person any accused person whose property has been attached or any interested party who is agreed with the order of the attorney authority he can approach the tribunal by filing of appeal within 45 days then special court the other important ingredient or the forum in this entire structure is very very important forum is special court that is court of session this is the designated court of sessions established under the act for conducting the trial for offence of money laundering the special court while trying the offence of money laundering shall be governed by the procedure laid down in the criminal procedure court for conducting the trial before the court of session so on the one hand attachment proceedings are taken care by the attorney authority and the criminal jurisprudence that part criminal trial part is taken by the special court so both both the proceedings run parallel side by side on the one hand prosecution part on the other hand attachment of the property part then this is I have created for the easy understanding web of actions why this family law has become so harsh today because many arrows are thrown suddenly shot many arrows I mean with one complaint only if a person is accused to be indulge in the LS to be accused in the found in the indulge in the offence of money laundering that so many actions which you see that is why I have named this slide as web of actions which are initiated on the part of UD so firstly investigation or search by say any investigation agencies which could be in conducts department police CBI NCB forest department any action is taken by on the part of their department so then investigation starts by the enforcement directorate the complaint is given to the investigation department that this person may be found indulge in the offence of money laundering and on the other hand that investigation agency files complaint for the scheduled offense because if the agency finds this investigation agency finds that any scheduled offense has been committed so it's complaint is filed to scheduled offense charge it may be filed in the judicial court and then when ED comes into picture you can see on the right side of the slide when ED comes into picture then it can also file complaint to the court that is special court for that person under section 45 that he that person is alleged to be found in the involved in the offence of money laundering and then simultaneously it can make provisional attachment of the property which has been which is the proceeds of crime and then it can go then the matter goes to the additional authority thereafter and then its confirmation or release takes place and on the other hand the special court starts the trial of the scheduled offense and then also for the offence of the money laundering and then that is how the three proceedings run parallel I mean to each other and the web of actions is created and we will definitely learn more about them bit by bit in coming slides so before that important things which bother us because one of the issues which were raised but sir what is money laundering and sir what is pursuits of crime first of all we have understood so far in common parlance that what is money laundering but how law defines it that also lets understand because of the specific reason that there has been some amendment in 2019 which is shaking the very concept some people are saying that which is shaking the very concept of offence of money laundering I will discuss what is that shaking part but before that let us read the original definition of money laundering as is given section 3 and it says that whosoever directly or indirectly attempts to indulge or knowingly assist or knowingly is a party or is actually involved in any process or activity connected with the pursuits of crime including its concealment, possession acquisition or use and this word end is in red and I will give the reason for that and projecting or claiming as untainted property shall be guilty of offence of money laundering so if you kindly notice so first thing is that a person indulging in any criminal activity and then second part is he should earn some proceeds of crime from there and then the third part is which is connected with the end he should project or claim this as untainted property so he is doing some offence then he is earning some proceeds and he is projecting it as untainted property and that is a cardinal principle or the entire superstructure on the basis of which the entire law of money laundering is based that he should project it as untainted property but some explanation has been added and the explanation says a person shall be guilty of offence of money laundering so and so it is repetition and then thereafter it says concealment or possession or acquisition or use or projecting as untainted property or claiming as untainted property in any manner whatsoever so if you kindly notice very carefully this word projecting proceeds with the word or and it succeeds with the word or so before that after that or is there whereas in the definition if you kindly see there was a word end so now the substantive part of the definition is different from the explanation part apparently you can see the disconnect and explanation I mean it is saying for the removal of doubts for the removal of doubt means the law should be something like that only there should be should not be some ambiguity but there is no ambiguity very it is word and is there so how an explanation can change the substantive part I mean I cannot say anything the the origin the concept of the loss means law remains same its objects have not been altered so therefore I think if this law should find the constitutional sustainability the constitutionality of this law then the the higher courts have to read this law it is my belief in harmony with the objects in the harmony with the the essence and the soul of the substantive law which is saying projection should be there otherwise what will happen suppose a person did some crime say theft and the moment he steals a property the stolen property itself becomes proceeds of crime and he can also be said to be engaged in the offence of money laundering so A he is charged to be found in the offence of theft and also simultaneously in the offence of money laundering without committing any second offence so how can a person be with one action be said to be committing two offences whereas when the law has created two offences separately and should be so there seems to be some disconnect so leaving it that at this stage let us cover up other fundamental things Ashwini ji there was a text in the chat box that kindly goes low but to the contrary I will say since the entire the PMLA etc hinges upon that few people are who have requested on the whatsapp that if it is a little easier to explain in Hindi the two distinctions are very good sir as you say I will do this but as far as the speed is concerned you will have to leave anything and there are slides in front of you so if you will bear a little I may be slow if you will bear a little then maybe it will be slow it seems good that Rohit Sharma keeps on chasing but at the same time he will understand he will understand but it shows one thing that you are lending your ears to me I am really motivated so friends as I told you the definition of money laundering has a big disconnect and I don't know why this disconnect was necessary and this will create havoc there will be a lot of problems because it will have to read down the high codes otherwise it will need an amendment the basic concept is in money laundering the effect from tainted to untainted is an essential ingredient till then it shouldn't be considered let's see how the higher codes decides how any suitable amendments are brought out let's see because this is a very recent amendment it has been brought out with the effect from 1st August 2019 now let's go proceeds of crime the first is the burning issue of money laundering and the second the issue of the subject revolves around what is proceeds of crime 2. Justice Manmohan has very well summed up but I will discuss this in a legal dissection in front of you what I am going to say what is the reason behind this I will give you the evidence of how this concept was misunderstood and there is no basis for such a mistake and the law is clear because of its small weakness which was interpreted wrongly against the purpose of interpretation but now to our rescue Judgment of Honourable Punjab Haryana High Court has come which has really analysed this section at a great length which was already analysed by Honourable Justice Manmohan and now beautifully analysed in a proper manner by Honourable High Court also whenever we used to argue before Honourable Justice Manmohan we used to get very patient hearing and in a similar fashion those arguments have reached before the High Court what is the procedure of crime definition 2 bracket 1, bracket u it says procedure of crime means any property derived or obtained directly or indirectly by any person as a result of criminal activity relating to a scheduled offence or the value of any such property or where such property is taken or held outside the country then the property equivalent in value held within the country so friends you have seen that it has two things written and two situations created the first situation is when property lives in India and the second situation is when property goes out of India now the question arises what is the meaning of property that we have earned by crime by any person or if they do not get it then apart from that what is the meaning of value of any such property and what is the meaning of equivalent in the value of any such property suppose a person did theft and he stole some say cash or rupees 50 lakhs and that 50 lakhs he bought that gold he sold he collected it in the bank he bought shares from that bank and then he sold that shares and then he sold that 50 lakhs shares in 75 lakhs he sold that shares and bought a plot and put 75 lakhs in the plot and put 25 lakhs more that plot is 1 crore the value of that plot is 1.5 crore rupees so now what are the pros and cons of crime if we take this in the definition of pros and cons in which I will substantiate any of these will come in pros and cons that means you will get cash from 25 to 50 lakhs if cash comes in their hands if the cash is found bank balance will also come gold will also come the plot of 75 lakhs if 1 crore is done but the 50 lakhs he had will not come the value is the value not that which has been infused later on now the second question is does any other property say some other residential house which was gifted to that person by his grandfather that can be covered stolen amount suppose he goes in the casino and loses this money in casino so can this rupee now if the enforcement agency comes into action that stolen money is not found whether pros and cons of crime would be any other property found say some other plot of land or some other shares which were gifted or obtained from some other sources unconnected with this can that be covered that is a question before us according to me and I will make the dissection of this if you kindly see 2 situations have been created one situation is where value of any such property if the property is India and later on amendment was made and it was said if the property is taken outside India then equivalent in value held within the country or abroad now this expression equivalent in value has been differently used so this means equivalent in value was not there before if it was there before then it was not necessary to put amendment because amendment was put and it brought equivalent world and whenever the legislature uses the word it uses the word for a particular purpose there is a objective behind it it is not objective less it is not aimless so since legislature has done it for this purpose therefore it should be seen like that only I will show with the help of when we will proceed further I will show with the help of slide how 2 situations have been created but before that let us read this amendment which has been made in section 18 2019 for the removal of doubt it is hereby clarified that proceeds of crime include property not only derived or obtained from the schedule defense but also any property which may directly or indirectly be derived or obtained as a result of any criminal activity related to any schedule defense now what does it include suppose crime that crime was subsidized which was not in schedule defense right so its proceeds of crime will be considered if there is a corrected crime so this is to that extent only what does schedule defense mean schedule defense means any offense which is mentioned in part a part b of the schedule of pml in which a lot of offenses are mentioned such as theft such as cheating such as forgery such as prevention of corruption act such as drug plightling, terrorism and so forth and so on many and other legislations also which have been mentioned there which you cannot imagine on the basis of common sense like pollution control violation of any water pollution control act air pollution control act, wildlife protection act etc etc so forth and so on section 120 b, section 420 of IPC etc so this I have already explained that there should be three stages of this I can skip then how commencement of proceedings are done under pml firstly inquiry and investigation takes place as you see and I mean how inquiry can be done the section 50 gives the power under section 50 of pml gives power to the enforcement directorate to issue summons to the persons for recording their statements and for production of any document any statement recorded under section 50 of the evidence that is admissible evidence in the court that is admissible this is a big question but so far the judgments are saying they are admissible they cannot be said to be invisible because of the restrictions given under article 20 back at 3 of constitution of India on the same parameters as the statements recorded under section 161 of CRPC so here it is said by the many court that it is admissible but the evidentiary value of such statement is a big question if the statements are recorded under pressure not in the fair environment not with the volition free will then of course the evidentiary value remains under the cloud of doubts then the ED has the power of search Caesar survey under section 16 and 17 and 18 of pml and power of arrest of course if the requisite conditions prevail it can file original application to the adjunct authority during the course of survey and search it has retained some documents impounded some documents then for the retention of the same it can move to the adjunct authority and retain the same then after making attachment under section 5 it can file original complaint under section 5 bracket 5 of pml then proceedings for criminal prosecution so simultaneously as I said that parallel proceedings can be initiated firstly an ECIR file and then a prosecution complaint can also be filed under section 45 of pml before the special court for trying the criminal trial for prosecuting the person under section 45 of pml then this I am skipping for the time being that is original application this original complaint as I said that it is the ED has the power under section 5 1 to make order for provisional attachment of such proceeds of crime and such attachment is valid for a period of 180 days so it will be valid for 180 days before that we have to go to adjunct authority and we have to confirm adjunct authority or release provisional attachment order if it is not confirmed then it will be released and if it is confirmed then as I said that it can be filed in the applet trial then this I am skipping for the time being then let me take up that that part where I say that there is some difference how the law takes place you know in practice and the law how it is contained in the books so in that firstly I will share with you this section 72 A has been inserted which says inter-ministerial coordination committee the central government has constituted actually inter-departmental inter-agency coordination for the following purposes namely operational cooperation between the government law enforcement etc etc which you can see on the slide and this is reinforcing the earlier thought which I was giving that there is going to be strong interplay in practically also and legally speaking also between various legislations then as now coming back to that by section which I wanted to make between two one U that how proceeds of crime would mean only that very proceed only so I have divided this section into two parts as the section is that is first situation and second situation first situation is where the property is held in India and second situation is where the property is taken or held outside India so first situation friends it says proceeds of crime means any property derived or obtained directly indirectly by any person as a result of criminal activity relating to the scheduled offense or value of any such property and kindly seen second situation it says the property equivalent in value so thus from the above it is clear from the beer reading that the legislature has made distinction while using two expressions differently in two different situations and friends there is one more reason the second reason is ultimately property the purpose of attachment is so that the property remains available before the special court if the special court wants to order for its confiscation and property will be confiscated only when the special court finds that it was involved in the offense of money laundering we can read section 8 so since only that property is to be attached which was involved in the offense of money laundering what is the point of fun in attaching that property which is not involved in the offense of money laundering what will happen to that special court is going to give no order for any such property so I mean that property will remain in vacuum the person who is owning that property will be unnecessarily harassed so that is why for this reason also probably my view is that any such property cannot be attached and to our rescue recently this judgment of honorable Punjab and Haryana High Court in the name of Seema Gark very recent judgment, very new judgment 6th March 2020 in appeal number 131 to Laker 3 of 2019 in which they have the honorable lordships have analyzed this issue in that very context which I have just put before you and they said no other property can be attached it's worth reading judgment available on the site of the honorable High Court very recent judgment and they have also followed the judgment of honorable Andhra Pradesh High Court in the case of Satyam Computers and also followed the judgment of Delhi High Court in the case of Abdullah Ali Bal Sharif but not followed the judgment of honorable Delhi High Court in the case of Axis Bank so this judgment mentioned in red color is the only judgment contrary to the view which I have placed but other judgments are taking the view that as the law says clearly that pursuits of crime means that property which has the trace of pursuits of crime I will try to say something in Hindi in a simple language suppose you dipped a cheaty in ink you left it in ink so wherever that cheaty will come the trace of pursuits of crime also means that wherever that pursuits of crime will come, its genesis its trace should be from the activities of the original crime only then it will be pursuits of crime otherwise not so section 3 already I have covered that in this word there is a big a good new controversial debate is going to start let's see how the things happen the second issue which I want to put before you is section 24 you must have heard often that this law is harsh because there is a reverse burden what is the meaning of reverse burden our constitutional framework is that a person is innocent unless he is proved guilty and the burden to prove that he is guilty is upon the person who is alleging him to be guilty that is the prosecution so unless prosecution proves the person innocent only but it is said that this concept has been reversed under PMLA is it right or it is wrong I would say it is partly right but not wholly right because the burden has been shifted partly only burden has not been shifted fully how I will share with you and we have the benefit of presence of legal anomalies before us today and I may be corrected to the extent you find it necessary because these are really controversial issues and a lot of deliberations are required on this it says section 24 says in any proceeding related to proceeds of crime under this act in case of a person charged with the offence of money laundering the authority or the court shall unless the contrary is proved presume that the proceeds of crime are involved in money laundering so kindly see it is beginning with the person charged with the offence of money laundering there has to be first of all charged there has to be filing of complaint and person has to be charged filing of complaint under scheduled offence and then filing of complaint by the enforcement directorate under section 45 so person should be charged then the authority of the court shall contrary is proved unless contrary is proved presumed that proceeds of crime are involved so presumption is being allowed only that the proceeds of crime are involved in money laundering but how many stages are there for infants of money laundering three stages as I mentioned one there has to be crime commission of offence and stage number two generation of proceeds there from from the commission of offence and third then converting those proceeds into good money so the presumption is only for third stage it is nowhere seeing there will be presumption for these first two stages but unfortunately the orders the way orders have been passed in certain cases at the level of purchasing authority the three stages have been presumed or when the attachment is done the attachment is done and the choco's notices are issued as if all the three stages are to be proved by the person accused it is not the case the law is the intention of the law according to my understanding is not this so this first two stages is the burden of the enforcement agency and third stage is the burden of the accused person accused that is how the law and true spirit can be implemented and that is how the real culprits of this law can be mapped otherwise the focus will be lost and as honorable justice Manmohan had very rightly mentioned that there will be huge heap of cases some of which only will be relevant unnecessarily the energies will be scattered and frittered away which is not the right approach then sir this PPT I will be sharing so you would not note down then sir section 5 of PMLA gives immense powers to the enforcement director to make attachment but before that certain conditions are precedent and conditions are reason to believe honorable justice Manmohan has very aptly said reasons have to be valid in the eyes of law may not be lengthy there is no formula prescribed how the reasons should be written but reasons have to be inherently acceptable to any court of law they have to make a connect connect between the material and the belief there has to be some cause and effect relationship so the proof of offensive money laundering may not be available but the proof of circumstances which are alleging that money laundering has been done those circumstances proof should be there at the stage of recording of reasons at least number one and number two in the judgment of Seema Garg which I mentioned few minutes before they rightly analyze the significance of reasons and they have said reasons will not be valid merely when the words mentioned in the statute are reproduced in the reasons that the set is likely to be eliminated no you have to give something more why are you thinking that something which was possessed since last 20 years by a person and there is no direct evidence of infusion of proceeds of crime that is likely to be eliminated how you have to bring out something more some tangible evidence and in what manner the reasons should be recorded that also we have discussed at great length and in many cases this has been made a mechanical exercise its sanctity has been lost I think a due respect should be given to ensure that the law is not misused and real real culprits are caught and then friends I will leave it at that stage and then certain things I am leaving because they are hyper technical and let me come back to adjudicating authority yes now firstly while giving the notice by the adjunct authority to any person accused or whose properties has been attached they have to record reason to believe that any person has committed the offense of money laundering or in person possession of POC and only after forming of such reason to believe the adjunct authority can issue shokos notice to the person but to my best of knowledge and understanding in none of the cases any such reasons either have not been recorded or not conveyed I do not know what is the truth so none of the notices I could find that so this again has become a mechanical exercise maybe because of the overburden upon the authority maybe because more training is required to understand this complex subject and maybe person with the sound knowledge of jurisprudence needs to be placed there maybe some other reasons are there so this law should not be implemented in because this is very harsh law and whenever harsh medicines are administered they have to be administered very very carefully and the counter the medicines to neutralize the effect of the side effect of harsh medicines have to be kept ready so I mean I think a lot of improvements are required at that stage then another very very very very painful area is that the moment adjudicating authority confirms the attachment one of the section of the PMLSA the ED can have constructive possession of the attached property possession of the attached property so that is why judicious application of mind by the adjudging authority is necessary because the movement mechanically order is passed a person may suffer I think this provision also needs amendment why? because when the confiscation is to be done by the court special court after the final adjudication of the final order final conviction then how can possession be given at this stage because giving possession is nothing less than confiscation the property goes out of the hand of a person and property may not come back in the right stage in the same state in the same in the right state as it was given it is very difficult for a government agency to maintain the property as the two owner of the property will maintain so what is the need? if it is the attachment is ensuring that the property does not go anywhere the right of possession as has been rightly prescribed under Benami law that it comes to the enforcement agency only after the appellate order is passed by the appellate tribunal and then fresh proceedings are done by the adjudging authority that whether confiscation should be allowed similarly here also same thing should happen otherwise because the ED is overburdened mechanically properties are attached because of hugeness of work, ample work and then suddenly adjudging authority is also overburdened and then adjudging authority also passed the order in same fashion because of their time limit of 180 days and then a person is deprived of his property and he is neither here nor there, where to knock the doors High Court would say no no go back to the tribunal and then tribunal becomes overburdened then tribunal would grant status quo and suppose there is a failure, there is some delay in approaching the tribunal on the part of that person because of the lack of understanding of the law, the person so dire need is there to show indulgence by the appropriate authorities and to make corrections in the law then there are certain other things but before that I will show the the the the law if the money laundering state takes place there are chances that the Benami law violation has also taken place the the violation of tax evasion has also taken place now the next question arises whether the tax evasion is also one of the scheduled offenses surprisingly tax evasion as such that is income tax evasion as such has not been made a scheduled offense but certain provisions of black money act violation of black money act section 50 and 51 of black money act has been made scheduled offense, certain provisions of violation of customs act have been made but violation of Benami law I believe has not been made and what about properties located outside India whether they will also be covered yes, India has got territorial nexus with other countries made arrangement PML law empowers them section 56 of PML empowers make arrangement agreements with other countries so through letter rote agri and other other mechanism is there and vice versa approach has been entered with many countries and that is how property in other countries for example you must have heard there was some recent news in the newspaper recently some properties of somebody outside India have been attached recently and in the cases of say Nero Modi and all that also wherever properties are located outside India the idea is making best efforts to attach the properties because of the provisions specific provisions also given in section 21U which also says if that cannot be attached then property equivalent value can be attached here but that does not mean that property located outside India cannot be attached if it is proceeds of crime and it is taken outside India through proper arrangements through proper channels that can also be attached then friends one case study only I will discuss and then we can bring into the deliberations we can have questions on session this is a you know case of a distillery unit it was established in 2005 and it was found to LS to have done some violation of water pollution control act some complete was filed by the pollution control board of the city nothing happened there in but matter was picked up by the ID and ID gave a notice to attachment of its factory I was also amused like you are how water pollution act and attachment of factory yes I will explain how so the allegation was that this factory discharge extra water into the river so the capacity was 50 kL it discharged 75 kL so 25 kL was extra discharged in the river that means the plant was not functioning well or whatever the reason though it set up a later on set up that unit set up a water treatment plant and therefore nothing no action further adverse action was taken by PCB but in the meantime ID swung into action and then ID says since extra water was discharged in the river that means extra production was done beyond the permitted line so that means violation of water pollution control act has been done so extra production means extra sales and extra sales means extra profits you want and that is the proceeds of crime which the unit invested in the factory building and that is how the factory is level to be attached fortunately the factory got status quo from the tribunal for the time being but this tough time they have passed through then in somebody dealt in bitcoin and he was alleged to be committed a scheduled offence because the bitcoin later on was an offence so he was just one of the investor but his properties were attached his FD has been attached because of dealing with the bitcoin because now ID has also swung into action apart from the proceedings he is spacing in in the other offences that is the scheduled offences which he is alleged to have committed now additionally he is facing the offence of money laundering also and rightly so if he has done the offence of money laundering but I wanted to give this case study to show that how the things are connected so if a person is doing any transaction he has to vet it from all angles all possible angles if a person buys a property he has to see from this angle also that less that his property is you know acquired from by anybody from the proceeds of crime so therefore he has to buy it by making appropriate proceeds by adequate proceeds that is sales consideration so if it is not doing it so he should be cautious then last issue which I will take up is that bank default cases which somebody was mentioning that how bank default cases can be roped in if a person obtains loan from a banker through fraudulent means by or siphons of the money then banker then this is a scheduled offence banker can file its complaint before the competent agency that is CBI it becomes a scheduled offence and then his complaint can be filed to ED then suppose ED has filed complaint and the banker has filed complaint to ED ED will swing into action so the loan amount suppose the borrower had taken a loan amount of Rs. 1000 crore a big borrower corporate house so that 1000 crore which was obtained from the banker in this fashion that loan taken by that borrower will be treated as proceeds of crime not only that wherever that trail goes that 1000 crores have travelled I mean many persons may have dealt with that borrower that corporate though like that the QT example I gave wherever it is travelling going moving that entirely will be covered as proceeds of crime and it is being hit so firstly under that case the spectrum will be too white you can pick up the yes banks case you can see any such case where the things have happened like that then not only that the real problem is this honourable justice Manmohan mentioned before us the purpose of the banker was to curtail its loss to recover some money out of that now the banker has filed complaint now by the time matter reaches before the tribunal sometimes the borrower says ok I have collected this 300 crores out of 1000 crore I want to pay it back so normally he should be allowed to pay it back to the banker but the stand taken by the AD in most of the cases is no it is now proceeds of crime because of being treated money and proceeds of crime have been attached and only after the special courts order this property can be released so now kindly see the wide disconnect the purpose of interpretation is lost the whole objective is lost the purpose was to safeguard the banker but because of this purely academic stand having been taken at many cases the banker is also at loss he is flabbergasted what is happening I wanted to curtail my loss now rather my loss is being aggravated so here some kind of correction is required in that approach and that is why probably some amendment has been made in IBC insolvency banking court by inserting section 32A and friends here I made that how the finance people or the advocates or the tax advocates who have knowledge of this can assist in terms of handling this PMLA matters that is they can help in identifying how the proceeds of crime can be computed by working on these parameters that is identifying the source and the loan utilized, calculation of correct POC valuation, proper financial and then accounting and then preparation of money, etc so though there are many still many more issues which we can be can be raised at this stage but since I have taken already a lot of time and you might be having certain questions but I will definitely say thank you very much for the for the wonderful and keen participation which you have given and we have a very you know, I would say able and enlightened panel with us so you can raise any questions and with the help of the benefit of we can take the benefit of the presence of Honourable Justice Manmohan, Amit Kheemkaji Arun Dasab, Arun Dasab has been former chairman of the Appellate Tribunal of PMLA so but brothers and sisters and all the dignitaries thank you very much for the wonderful for the patient hearing which you have given to me, thank you very much Thank you Ashwini ji the session as usual was quite enriching after the session by all three speakers who gave different insights and different inputs one thing rather four things came that how different acts are interwoven with each other and it's very difficult to understand until unless there is an expert who can make you understand we are quite obliged that all three of you have been able to clear the doubts which were there then another fact which has come forth is that the trails to all these issues is an important factor but as I say facts may speak lie but circumstances don't so even if there is a anybody God forbid is under the loop if he is rightly advised but the right person can always not worry on those issues now since the topic was such we amongst on this platform as earlier said we are Amit Khemka who is again a member of your team and we had his insights he needs no introduction as such but be that as it may his knowledge isn't this thing we have amongst us ma'am we will be unmuting her for some time then we have Sujoya Kantawala he again has good knowledge on this matter only two questions thankfully because we are running short of time are there and we will not take any further questions because as we said that Mr. Suresh Prabhu has taught us that if we have to succeed the time should be strictly followed Mahindra Singh says that supreme court in many cases that reverse burden does not mean that there is no burden on the prosecution it requires first primary burden be satisfied with the prosecution what is your take on it Ashwin Ji I will definitely come back but what I am saying we have the benefit of presence of vulnerable decision he can also take questions when ever decide I myself am saying that firstly it aptly said I am rather one step ahead first of all clarify the burden which has been shifted back only to that extent you can bind a person and even to that extent it has been shifted back then we have to take care of the guidance from the honorable supreme court that prosecution cannot just wash off his hands otherwise in a civilized society it will be difficult to live how can negative be proved by this person that you have not done anything wrong you tell me what I have done wrong but tell me right and give parameters evidence so that I can dispel those so that is how I think in a democratic set up in a civilized society that is how the function should be done I am of that I want to add here one thing are you hearing me Mr. Tereja yes sir yes sir you are hearing me Mr. Tereja not only Mr. Tuneja everybody is just I will just explain if you see the definition section 24 where the person is the person is charged with the offenses first of all the initial burden is with the or the ED that there must be some material then the words are the person is charged charge means that the charges are framed against him it means that some legal person of the judicial officer has examined the case and charges are framed now there are there are two view one view of ED is charge means charge it is filed another basically charge means he has been charged, charge means the special court has seen the file charges are framed then the burden will shift to the accused party otherwise not otherwise unless some material prima facie material totally against the accused is available on the face of the regard then it will shift to the accused but initial burden is with the ED some material must be there against the accused party thank you very right sir Vikas ji please unmute Sujoya Katawala also and Sujoya I am going to he is a very immaculate speaker we have been on many TV channels together yes you do and very very sweet I mean he puts things in a very sweet voice and sweet manner yes personality you know and Anil Agarwal ji is there he is he is coming by 9999 you know your password for this Mr. Anil Agarwal deliberately said 9999 because he said that once he adds it becomes 10,000 that one extra inch what they said that the Neela that extra fourth created a different mankind so just like I am reminded of the 9999 I have been on this law and he has been speaking at many seminars and webinars on this law in fact he is our inspiration in many things you know sir I just wanted to add one more thing you know there are three parts for my learning trends Mr. Anil Agarwal has been kind enough to post the PPT on the chat box but be that as it may he will also send it on my whatsapp I will share it on the group what we have beyond law of secrecy so what I feel is that in order to prove the offence of money laundering there are three steps one is that the scheduled offence should have taken place the second is that some proceeds of crime must have been generated out of that scheduled offence now and the person is being prosecuted he has tried to utilize or demonstrate those proceeds of crime as untainted money or projected them as untainted money now these are the three steps I feel that presumption is only in respect of the third step so far as the first two steps are concerned the onus squarely is upon the enforcement directorate the presumption can only come in when the scheduled offence is proven and then the proceeds of crime are proven that these proceeds of crime have been generated out of that scheduled offence then only the question of the money laundering will come in so money laundering can be presumed and then the onus will shift on the accused to prove that he did not do it knowingly or he did not know about that these are the proceeds of crime or whatever way he wants to disprove them but I feel that this should be the right interpretation in and harmonious interpretation of section 3 and section 24 I suppose Sujoy what is your take no no I fully agree with Jassi Singh and Taneja Ji and Khemka Ji who have very very appropriately placed the relevant issues before all of us and you see what happens 24 is a multi kind of dimensional monster actually according to me because what will happen is this will give an AK-47 in the hand of the IO the enforcement officer because there will be absolutely no burden on him everything is thrown on the person and this act has got such wide reaching because as we know the definition of proceeds of crime is and who so ever so anyone and everyone and now even lawyers fees are being attached we heard the you recently that even the lawyers fees are being attached under this act now so therefore secondly in fact Taneja Ji time come tha thinking that you will say something because now can you see 45 how dangerously it was that means a person would never be entitled to bail fortunately Jassi Nariman it came before him he went up to Magna Garta and he has discussed beautifully written judgement but again then they brought an amendment to some of the other kind of from the back door creep into it and therefore Bombay High Court in Sameer Buthwal so every time there is this jostling happening and we as defense lawyers on this side continuously have to be aware and alert that what game is being played so that ultimately the constitutional guarantees being violated everywhere that is the difficulty which we are facing with this I will also ask Mr. Anil Agarwal so much praise has been said we are quite second cent that words coming from all these people regarding you the insights from your side will also just give a good flip to the entire game I subscribe to the views of the all learning speakers I think that is always called also here if we can unmute Deserf on this issue we quite often discuss with him R&D can you we are doing that meanwhile we have R&D R&D because may I suggest one thing yes I think this is a part one we need part two and we need all I think Mr. Kemka Mr. Puneja and Justice Singh I think we need to hear more from them really I am telling you this law is a new law in that sense it is developing and I think we need a lot of more insight so many things like ECIR copy is not given again this background method of crawling and trying to again recreate those two twin conditions very very interesting discussion I think part two should happen very soon Puneja sir look Mr. Dash I don't think okay you unmute Ranoji please Ranoji that's all I am saying you can say when you could know sister Ranoji's presence very very learned person she was yes ma'am it is a immense pleasure that you are on the platform and the fact Mr. Mikazhi please let me start thank you Mikazhi thank you very much for recognizing my screen you know and it is always my pleasure it is always always my pleasure to hear to Ashuni who is like my younger brother actually this is not my core subject binami and PMLA I have all my life I have practiced only income tax but listening to hearing to Ashuni and Amit Khemkarji he is a very good orator offline also I have been in touch for so long I was listening all this deliberation like a student though I am practicing only income tax but I know I will be like I am enlightened a lot and I really really liked it don't want to add anything to the subject and presence of Honorable Justice Manmohan was really really something added to it so I am very thankful to for this deliberation and I agree with Mr. Santavala that there has to be a second session definitely yes it has to be I just know sister Rano was member in the tribunal she was we were batch mates and some of the orders which she wrote authored from while sitting at Chandigarh bench these are worth reading orders thank you thank you Ashuni and me form a mutual admiration society actually I just say that once you say that it's a mutual admiration but if it is a hollow admiration then nobody would appreciate but once good words coming forth from one another from a learned person is always appreciated Kantavala I am seeing that he is nodding his head it is just like he says my name is Kantavala but I can appreciate the roses in and around me Sir we are searching for cyclones in Mumbai I am reminded tomorrow somebody called me up that tomorrow we have a session on sports law and beyond where we have Mr. Puneet Bali along with Yudhaat Singh the former cricketer somebody said that he is in Bombay how will he come out of the cyclone I said that he played a hurricane he will also not worry about the cyclone Mr. Kantavala few words from your side we will also work out how the second go what is your take on certain aspects no no I that's why I said that the way they all our friends have succinctly put up this issue and the hard work which Tanija Ji has done preparing this PPT presentation and all I really appreciate but what happens is this is such a niche kind of subject and it's such a developing law that we will have to have a part too because we need to hear Mr. Tanija we need to hear Justice Singh again see for example the Nikesh Tara Sinsha I think the way Supreme Court has kind of entered into that issue and passed this remarkable judgment but can we expect that in future if something goes up to the Supreme Court we will find the same kind of judges we all know how things are today morning I will tell you on live law there was one example where a matter was on V.C. video conference before Justice Arun Mishra and he said we are not interfering dismiss so the advocated not muted the mic and she told her client he doesn't let them hear anything and he dismissed it like Justice Arun Mishra he keeps telling us everything what does that mean he keeps telling us what we want to hear so it again is the luck of a client and that is that is why it is known as special luck petition not special leave petition special luck petition that it goes before an appropriate bench who will hear both sides and then pass a judgment so we can't have Nikesh again and again coming back to the original request that because why don't you request our lawyer friends that we should have part 2 of this there is a similar there is an identical provision that companies act you know as for section 45 of PMLA and the petitions are pending in supreme court that just you have just have to follow the judgment Nikesh Tara Chansha and strike it down but for last almost 2 years those petitions are not being taken up and people are rotting in jails only because of that you know the problem you are right that we need hearing by the courts I suppose can we have the final overview from Honourable Justice Manmohan because he has heard now all of us just one word before we ask Justice Manmohan to just give a final wrap up. Kanta Wala time and again you are citing a judgment I am only saying just 2 lines sum up of that judgment because large number of participants would not be knowing that what was held everybody has understood that Justice Fariman has given a wonderful judgment but what is held in that just 2 lines then we will ask Justice Manmohan to see section 45 as it then stood before it was kind of between conditions were was that first of all it was something like this only that unless the learned judge is convinced of your innocence basically in layman's terms and the public prosecutor virtually gives his NOC only then and then a person so therefore you ignore 439 you ignore what bail and not jail is the criteria and you throw a person in jail without going through the normal so therefore what Supreme Court say now you treated under 439 as a regular application and that is what in short it is a very long judgment but in short it is this it has paved the way for a lot of people who were hit by those twin conditions now to argue their bail applications under 439 is a normal bail application I leave it now to Justice Singh Yes I think Mr. Kanthiwala is right he is right that whatever explanation is explained to us I think landmark judgment is given by Justice Nariman as well as Honorable Mr. Justice Sanjeev Kishan they are basically parallel to the criminal procedure court principles that judgment according to Mr. Kanthiwala that judgment has been murdered I personally feel I know let me first say one thing that it is not a case of anybody that if the accused party is involved he should not be dealt with very strictly everybody says he should be dealt with very strictly at the same time if the person is innocent then basically he should not he should not be harassed and thirdly basically I say if the bench of the Supreme Court has given the judgment we must have respect for judgment we cannot basically set aside the judgment in order to amend the some explanation is given either this thing should be discussed in the parliament so that each and every party has its own view otherwise I personally feel it is a disrespect to the judgment rendered by the Supreme Court I totally agree although complete three years almost every day I used to tell everybody that we are we want that each and every case of ED should be successful but the point is they have to do according to the law not otherwise otherwise what will happen people will not stop there it is a it is a matter of property it is a matter of death and life of a person he has to go to the high court he has to go to the Supreme Court each and everything will be examined by the courts I say I totally agree that the judgment cannot be overruled by some agency or some authority or some officer it cannot be done if you want to do something if you want to bring a new law it has to be discussed in the parliament because you must think what is going on in the minds of the judge after hearing we have rendered the judgment which is appreciated by every citizen of this country and suddenly one day one explanation has come and the judgment is overruled this is one single judgment there are about many judgment just Bakhtu has given the judgment which says if basically the person is acquitted he will also acquitted under the PMLA but that also the explanation is given with due respect I say if you want to amend the law it is a welcome move go to the parliament repeal the entire act no problem at all if you want to say that if property is attached possession will be taken immediately without any application if the parliament will pass the law we have to obey it but the thing is we should not discredit the judgment of the Supreme Court in this manner thank you so much thank you sir it was an enriching session we always have a session of around one and a half hour for the way it was for two hours 15 minutes we never realized how the time just went off it is just like on an average we have a movie which is engaging it is for two hours but sometimes once the movie like Padmavad it's of three hours still people don't realize that the movie it was three hours it was a wonderful session from everyone one minute Vikas, may I say this one thing I want to say I want to know everything I remember an incident when the two parties were fighting in the court some things were happening allegations, counter allegations external forces, this pressure that pressure but they didn't say anything the PM said do you know what this is? this is an act I will go by this and read the constitution book along with it whatever you say I will decide and pass my order by this only I will not say anything else that's it that's it because I just wanted to say one thing to add to what Tanijar ji said I just want to say one thing you gave an example of Padmavad there was only one picture this is an example of a Netflix series where we are waiting for the other part you are waiting for the other part nice people I think so thank you everyone the session was as usual engaging that is what I have a take because they say for a mother every child is good so once you are a moderator you feel that every session is good tomorrow we have another session which is quite interesting for a common man including the lawyers and professionals because we all know that marriages are made at heaven but sometimes marriages do create a hell at the earth also so how to how the things shape up it's offenses relating to marriage privilege prevailing law in India and response of court and the speaker is Mr. Honourable Mr. Justice Kavaji Singh Haluwalia former judge of he had been at 3 places because he is principally from our high court Punjab and NRA High Court he went to Calcutta High Court and then to Rajasthan High Court so we can all say on behalf of beyond law CLC and ULS Punjab University that session it will give insights not to a lawyer but every common man also a common man common woman I will also say so do stay connected tomorrow the session is at 5pm thank you everyone who have given their insight they are indebted to Mr. Sree to go Justice Manmohan Singh Ashwin Pranayaji Arun Desh Sujai Kantawala Rano Jan Rajo Jan Rano Jan Mr. Arun Desh Mr. Anil Adharwal Mr. Amit Khemka the list is so much that everybody has his own way like they say each one each one has everyone has his contribution in his own way contributing for the insights of knowledge everybody who is given the knowledge everyone has given their own way of contribution everyone stay connected stay blessed and must say to all and God bless you all thank you