Now anything just it's recording so don't okay and get my agenda on my own computer.  Call the finance committee to order and then I'll call the full council order. So stuck. Good morning. It's a couple of minutes. Right at nine o'clock or a couple minutes after and I'm going to call the finance committee meeting of April 12, 2022. We have a quorum of the finance committee here. We also have a quorum of the council so when I finish calling the going through the process of starting the meeting for the finance committee, I will then turn it over to the council president because she's going to want to continue the meeting of the council itself also soon as I can conclude. So, in any event pursuant to chapter 20 of the acts of 2021 extended by chapter 22 of the acts of 2022. This meeting will be conducted by remote means members of the public who wish to access the meeting. They do so I assume and by telephone. No in person attendance of members of the public will be permitted. This is a meeting that is being convened solely as a virtual meeting, but every effort will be made to ensure that the public can adequately access proceedings in real time by technological means that we will have public comment. But the public comment will be late in the meeting not early in the meeting, and I am now going to ask the members of the finance committee to indicate their presence and to make sure that they can hear and so we can confirm that they hear us and I'll start with. President. Bob Hegner. That hallway. President. Bernie Kubiak. President. Michelle Miller. Here. Kathy Shane. Kathy. You're muted so I can't hear you. Here. Okay, thank you. And I'm here and I don't believe I've seen Alicia Walker. So, but we do have a quorum with all members for one currently present. And I'm going to turn it over to you about convening a meeting of the council. Seeing that we have a quorum with the council present. I'm going to call the council together meeting together or meeting to order, excuse me, for the finance committee as a joint meeting with the finance committee. And I want to make sure that those counselors who are present can hear us and we can hear them. Let's start with Anna Devlin, got your. Here, sorry, I'm late. No problem. Patty Angeles. Present. Jennifer Todd. Present. Mandy Johannity. I believe that's everyone. Thank you. Okay, so. The final process for finance committee meetings is we review the agenda is the next item. And so what I'm going to just say is there are essentially three items in addition to public comment that are on the agenda. What's listed item two is a can actually be at the end of the meeting. It was added as the last minute item, but it's really finance committee oriented. And we have people who are joining us for other agenda items first so that's going to be the last item. And we are going to start with the, what's listed as item three, the FY 23 budget review for the regional school district. It says budget and capital. We will be looking at the operating budget first, and then the capital budget of the regional schools, which is a separate request. And then the water and sewer regulations. We have two people from the public works, but we have asked that they not join us at the beginning of the meeting unless they want to. Because we know we're going to start with schools. So, if there's objection from the committee, we will handle that and we'll fit the minutes approval and later in the meeting. So, turning then to the schools I want to welcome superintendent Morris and Dr slaughter the finance director of the schools, and presentation at the most recent council meeting. So that we have the background information already presented. I don't know if there are any additional things that either of you would like to say to the committee sort of to launch the discussion or if we want to go to questions. So, Dr Morris. Thank you very much Andy so just briefly, just to recap, I think some of the important pieces of that conversation one is that the district developed a sort of compromise to satisfy that the concerns and request that we received from our four member towns. The first member town we're having, you know, more active discussion the other three towns, I think just for context is important for folks to know, have town meetings, one at the end of this month and then the other two towns are in mid May. So from a process perspective, we need approval of all four towns of both the assessment method, as well as the financial dollar amount to move forward with the budget for the region for the next school year so we appreciate the, the council taking us early with off schedule. For when you're considering the budget but doing that allows you to weigh in before the other three towns perhaps, I've already voted and and I think it's a much more healthy process I really appreciate the council and the fin come, allowing us to come early and so the compromise piece was really around getting to a more durable sustainable assessment method and so what you'll, what you saw in the presentation last week, or I've seen in the past if you're following some of the regional school committee meetings is moving to 100% So we're going to go back to the historic method with a smoothing measure that has a five year smoothing measure rolled into it and you know we're able to do that in part and make this transition because we do have a sur funds, which are funds from the stimulus act that support our regional schools that helps bridge the gap for us. So in the next phase where a year from now in the next budget, we will have six graders from the Amherst elementary schools attending the regional middle school that would be have to be a financial arrangement, sorted out about the rental of space and perhaps portions of staff members like nurses things custodians folks who, you know wouldn't come with their own staff for 140 150 kids. So that's another part of this whole equation long term about making things more sustainable so you know we, we've so far, not, we've had a relatively for us that low drama budget year as it relates to regional schools, it's a low bar perhaps because we often have struggles between our four towns about both the assessment method and the dollar amount as well as our community about the services we provide so we're hoping to continue that but we'll see how that plays out we're open of course to any questions that any members have today. I think the President, the council email does a question about an hour ago that probably we weren't able to compile all the information so please know this isn't the last opportunity to ask questions. If you do have questions we may not have all the answers if it takes some background research to be able to do it but we commit to getting back to the best of our ability in a time of manner. With that I'll turn it back to the finance committee and the council. Okay, so just to remind everybody of the process that we've established. And then I'll get to the people who've raised their hands to because we're focusing on process right now, before we get to substance. The charter does have a provision that if there is reason to take a section of the budget separately that we have the capacity to do so. Written into the charter. I guess I was as a select board member consulting with the Charter Commission about the finance sections with partly with the regional schools in mind because we recognize that this is going to be a challenge that in this is the best way to handle it. There is a requirement in the charter that there be a budget hearing for all parts of the budget and for the, and if we take something out of order, the charter does require that we have a budget hearing for the that piece before we actually can vote on it. So the plan is that there will be a budget hearing at the council meeting on April 25, April 26 will be a finance committee meeting to talk about the make a final recommendation on the regional school budget and forward it. But after the for the public hearing, because we want to be able to consider any public comments, and then the plan is that at the May to council meeting that we would be able to take a vote. And as will be explained later, that's actually significant date because of the capital part of the budget, which is the second part of the discussion on school regional schools today. So, I don't know if Lynn has anything else to add to that and if not Sean you had your hand up a minute ago. I have nothing Andy that was an excellent overview thanks. But you cover everything that I was gonna say. Yeah, I want to make sure though that if particularly new counselors are no counselors that have returned a few questions about the process. We should talk about that now. Seeing no questions about process. I guess we should go ahead. Kathy do you have something on process or you want to call it. I have a process I think it's a process timeline not for what today but the regional school capital budget don't we have to consider that with a up or down earlier than the capital budget we're looking at in June. Don't we have a once it submitted to us earlier. I'm just looking at the timeline on that that was that was my question. Okay. The answer is basically yes, because of the provisions of how the budget process for capital works. And that's why made to is a key date. I don't know if any one wants to add to that. Sean. I'm sure Doug was going to say this. You have 60 days. The council has 60 days to act upon the vote of the regional school committee which was on March 15th right Doug. So that's why we have the vote on both the operating budget and the cap capital for the region on May 2. So that's within that 60 day window. And can I just follow up when we're voting are we voting only on FY 23, or are we also voting on the possible plan with track and all its glory of glory meaning more than one version of it. I would defer to Doug to explain the capital though. Okay, I mean maybe we're getting into substance now so I can wait on that like I got the first one. Okay, Doug. So, what I'll say is this is that so there's sort of two parts to capital there's the capital assessment which is the part of the budget that can be a part of the budget. It doesn't have the 60 day limit, quite the same way the, the debt authorization does. So the debt authorization is the one that has the 60 day window in which the council would have to take action to either agree with that or disagree with that. The actual assessment is just a single year assessment just like the operating budgets a single year operating budget those two are pieces of the overall budget. And third piece to the, to the overall budget is the assessment method that authorization is a somewhat separate but integrated step that you would take as well and it's, it's, it is just an authorization for an amount to be borrowed. And this pieces to one regular looking capital items and then one larger project which has some variability to how it may play out. Anything else on process because otherwise I'm going to turn to the regional budget, the operating budget Lynn. I just want to acknowledge that it is an unusual capital budget. And when we get to it.  So, what I'm going to do is recognize. I would choose either a member of the finance committee or the counselor and not a member of the finance committee, just in order of people asking to be recognized to with questions about the budget and so if you have questions that you would like to ask about the regional budget. Please raise your hand and I will be taking try doing my best to take recognize people in the order in which they ask for recognition and will proceed from there. I'm going to also ask that if you have a series of questions that you handle the, you know, you just recognize that there may be a number of people who are asking for recognition. And I don't know who suggested the question to Lynn that was posed in advance but not everybody may be aware of what that question is so I don't know Lynn if it was a question that came from counselor Shane, and it was to ask for multiple years of comparison of number of students number of faculty and budget and for the first last most recent five years, and then in increments of five years going back up to 20 years. And, and I'll just say, I didn't expect to get those for today but I think it would be just useful for us to be able to see that kind of trend. And you've, and so far we've been provided parts of it. So it's not that we have nothing. So, thank you. I also want to ask Dorothy, if you can hear us and Yes, I can hear you. Okay, thank you. Okay, so then I'll look for people to raise hands and Kathy your hand is up. So. Okay, so we're focusing first just on operating budget correct. Correct. And right now I see three hands, so I'm taking it in order that they went up, Kathy. Okay, so I'll be mixing the discussion a little bit but as I understand it, you've been able to achieve the projected operating budget, which has an increase of 3.9% for Amherst compared to the guideline that we put out of two and a half, because there's no answer funds. And so you're able to do do the current budget without any significant changes in staffing. So I, I'm wondering what happens in 2425, you know what what are we, if we look out a little bit what happens when the, when there's no answer. That's number one. So I'll just do my second one because it's linked to this. The third grade sixth grade is scheduled to move up in the fall of 23, which is the next FY year it's FY 24. So does that help my it's related to my question about FY 24 the town will be paying rent to the regional school. And I'm wondering if it also helps that there are more students so the the cost for rent might be down because you can spread art and music and language potentially got sixth grade with some of those extras so I'm looking for, you know, if we're okay for this year. Tight but okay what happens a year from now, and I'll stop those and those are my two questions.  I will. I can start us off so I'll start with the second one first I think in some respects so so talking about the sixth grade moving to the to the middle school there is some economy that will be gained potentially be staffing in some respects, you know there may be some loss of that and in the elementary schools because you know you, for example, let's take a nurse. And the building so that cost per student at say Wildwood will be a little higher, because you'll have the sixth grade out but you'll still need a full time nurse there. On the other hand will share a nurse at the middle school. And so that will reduce the cost. Some of those things will kind of offset each other. Other, but there are other economies that they won't have an expense on on sort of the other side of the equation from from the two districts that sort of thing. So yes, we'll, you know we have extra funds the current year and next year will probably leverage those in both years to sort of smooth the transition, as we wait until sixth grade comes online and in the middle school that will provide some some relief to the regional budget for sure. I think it also will to the to the Amherst budget. So we're using those extra funds to help kind of bridge that gap of time. So it's, you know, it won't be easy. And I think that there are going to be some hard choices we're going to make over the next couple years. As we as we look at, you know, the staffing levels we have member students we have costs we have and available funds. And so, you know, as rule definitely help us out to the next couple years and one of the things we'll need to do as we plan for those sixth years in the middle school is to try to find the as many economies we can to help smooth out that that transition and cost and that loss of resource from the other funds. I can add just very briefly, you know, as our funds where we are working hard not to expend all of them quickly. And so we don't know what shape the virus will take obviously we're a period of higher concern that we were a month ago at the I'd love to be right in predicting the future of COVID but right if I could do that I'd take that on the road and probably our budget problems we solve so I don't want to go there but it is the case that we do have to be aware that we may have other mitigations that occur in the future, but we do have the funds for one more or part of one more fiscal year so we are looking ahead and preserving some amount of funds for budget support for the FY 24 budget. And at that point unless the federal authorities relaxed their deadline which I believe they're not slated to do despite a lot of urging professional organizations like my national one. I think that's where the cliff that we, we talk about will be so we do anticipate being able to use some as our funds for budget support for the next, the FY 24 budget but FY 25, as it currently stands, that's where the, that budget support plan. Sorry about that. So anything else you have Kathy otherwise I'm going to Bob. No, my other questions are different issues so go to Bob and then Mandy, you go to the others. Okay Bob. Yeah I wanted to focus a little bit on the revenue. I'm looking at the table on page 20 of the report and I noticed that the transportation reimbursement went up by 100,000 and the revenue for budget support went up 700 to 700,000 100 500,000. Are these new levels, the kind of thing that is going to continue into 24 and 25 or they one time increases that could be reduced in the future, because they obviously would impact the budget tremendously. That's it. I can answer that and I'll start with, I'll start with the transportation reimbursement. The recent history of transportation reimbursement has been a little stronger than it has been in previous years and so they've been able to support us at a little bit higher level so that's hopeful that it will stay at that that level of support. Some of it's a reimbursement for costs that we incur so our costs are going up as well. So it's a little bit of wash in some respects. You know, hopefully we can, we can have and continue to have a fairly decent contract with our, with our bus company and our own internal systems of providing transportation so that's likely to stay fairly steady in and around that that level of support for the, it's a higher use this year we had a, we finished last year with, you know, a significant amount of surplus quite frankly and so our E&E was much higher we had a lot of unknowns as we went through last year. And as a result, you know, we were holding off on spending in order to sort of anticipate and be ready for any kind of an extraordinary cost which didn't materialize partly because we just weren't in our buildings until April and May and so we really just had a lot less expenses and so our E&D was, you know, which is like reserves for the town was much higher. We haven't, you know, a maximum allowable of E&E that's allowed to us as a result of the action of the last school committee, you know, we're returning money back to the town of Amherst in the over about $380,000 which reduced the burden of this year's assessment to the town. That will, that amount of support for the budget from E&E will not be as high next year we typically have about $500,000 worth of support there so it's a little higher this year. So that will be a concern as we head into next year that, you know, as we go into fiscal 24 we won't have quite as much ability to support the budget but nonetheless we had it available this year and still feel like that's a reasonable mechanism to keep ourselves at a level services budget for the fiscal 23. Anything else. No, that's all thank you. Okay. Yes, thank you. First I want to thank you for providing the 174 page budget to us. That's something I've been looking for for a while, and it was fantastic it's much better than last year's just line item with all the graphs and explanations and inclusion of revolving funds and all of that so thank you for that and I want to apologize for the harshness I might have taken out on you on my frustration last last council meeting for not having found that or seen that so so thank you for having it it was very helpful for me to help understand this budget. So I have a question that relates to what Kathy was asking and then something similar to that. The staffing changes look like the staff has gone up about 8% in increase in staffing from FY 19 to FY 23. Yet our school. Enrollment has gone down 5%. And most of that staffing appears to be staffing increase appears to be in the special education department. I've noticed in this budget that the SR funds are funding about six staff members this coming year, and that school choice funds have increased tremendously that in the revolving fund for school choice you're actually supporting the budget more than in typical years at least it looked like to me on school choice funds and that that includes supporting even more staffing. I love the middle and high school through those school choice funds. And so I'm concerned when is is the support level at the school choice funds for the operating budget sustainable. And number one, and then again with the SR funds if we've moved that support level to six seven members school choice is another 11, I think. I think 18 staff members supported by funds that may or may not be there in two years or may not be able to be at that level. And then, in addition to that while we're losing students, we're increasing our staffing. And I just want you to speak to you covered a little bit about the SR staffing and all but how do we transition away from, you know, the SR funds supporting six staff members when they disappear in two years and. And that's also why the staffing seems to be increasing by 8% over five years while those students are decreasing by 5% and that's the overall student population maybe some of it relates to the sped student population I just don't know I couldn't find those numbers. And so that's that's one question or group of questions I have is it seems like the staffing level is not compatible with, or, or following the trend of enrollments. And then the next one that relates to that is in the budget you had a nice graph about the percentage of budgets dedicated to various sections of the budget regular education special education transportation school facilities all of that and I noticed something that over the last four years, the actual dollar amount spent on regular regular education has decreased, not not by like the actual dollars, and it's only one of three areas that the actual dollars have decreased So that concerns me that we're spending less money on the bulk of students getting their education and and more money on nearly every other category the only other categories that actually decreased for school administration and facilities. So can you talk about why the actual spending in regular education over the last four years and actual dollar amounts this is not, you know, set for inflation or anything has gone down, and how that, you know how those choices are made to spend less money on regular education and more money on various other areas within the budget. Okay, so hopefully I'll get all those in this answer. So I'll start with this, the sort of school choice school choices traditionally and have and will remain to be a fairly steady source of income for the regional schools we have used it to support staffing we traditionally use it in the regional schools in our mathematics departments. The number of FTE may fluctuate in some respects by virtue of who our staff are and what they cost and so the FTE varies depending on where staff are and what is great and stuff they're at. So it does vary a little bit just independent of how many dollars we can get to it by virtue of what the cost of those staffing are. That being said it is a higher level of support from from school choice we've been conservative in our use of school choice for the last couple years and so we have more in our revolving fund of school choice funds and so we can go and be a little more aggressive with our spending in school choice this this coming fiscal year again with the goal of not making any cuts to staffing or services that we provide to students and so as far as sustainability of that level of funding probably not at that high level but it'll be close to that level for the next several years we have a healthy balance there with school choice students, but you know we'll have to manage that and and and we're utilizing those funds much like we're using as our funds to help us as we transition to having the sixth grade in to the middle school and and that'll be an area where we can probably reduce our use of school choice funds in the future. As far as ESER funds in the FTE associated with that many of those staff or our staff that have been brought on to deal with particular items of concern relative to the pandemic. And so some of those staff are are likely not to be needed as we transition through the pandemic and into its endemic phase. So we're hopeful that that some of that staffing will change and not be necessary. I'll move ahead. So some of what you see with regard to that boost in staffing is some higher specifically to deal with pandemic related needs of the students. At the same time, there's been a transition schedule at the high school to a block schedule and so in working through what are the needs and demands of staffing for that schedule and preserving the elected structure that would like to have for students. There's been a steady that and the number of staff that are needed to provide all those courses and so I think that's part of what you're seeing as well as far as the staffing numbers are holding steady or maybe you can potentially increase it. So this sort of shift in spending relative, you know, regular education versus special education, oftentimes with with and other parts of budget, I mean, you know, most of our software that we have have gone on to schedules where they increase their, their software fee by 4% per year insurance property insurance went up 10% this last year. So we have some inflation and pressure in some other areas the budget that you can't, you know, sort of avoid. To drive the budget by virtue of their need. You know, a lot of those areas that I just mentioned are not huge parts on the software is a fairly significant component of our budget but other areas are not as big but there are several that have had that sort of increase that's above. You know, two and a half percent or so you can usually afford. When you talk to the transition potentially from, you know, to more spending on special education, I think that's driven by the needs of the students and so there's some, you know, there are compulsory aspects of what we do and and providing a free appropriate public education to students and so that drives and those those individualized education plans drive some of the choices we have to make relative to staffing to meet the needs of those students and so that has sometimes increase our cost in that area. And, and to be honest over the last several years we've had to make reductions and, and, you know, so those, those reductions are manifest in some of that regular education spending that has, you know, we endeavor to make those cuts in ways that have the least impact on students always profound impact on students and so that's, you know, that's the process that we go through is to try to find ways to reduce in in order to come with a balance motion to stay within our financial guidelines and resources in a way that that has least impact on students and yet still preserves a lot of the things we're trying to do for a programmatic standpoint. There's one other point. Sorry. Well Doug I can jump in while you're thinking of the last thing you want to say I think I think Mandy Joe's question. We use first names in school committee hope that's okay for the counselors. I've gotten into the habit of it. They made a deliberate shift this past year to do that. You know, I think there was three years ago that we saw a significant shift of students with special education needs that were serviced by para educators from the Amherst Hill, the regional level was very difficult year for the region and was actually probably the best year for the Amherst public schools. As a result of the number of para educators the Delta between the two districts was I think in the order magnitude of six or seven. So some of the staffing trends are reflected or cohorts of students who have had a more significant adult support needed to access the curriculum and typical and we saw a full sweep of them a couple years ago. And because our districts are organized the way they are is very visible that one grade level went through where else are seeing an increase in parent referrals and have seen since school was closed and during the lockdown and I think that's that's a reality I think the other thing and I want to acknowledge your point is we have decided as a committee as a community to add staffing in areas we middle school and high school each have a restorative practices position. That doesn't exist before right now doesn't come under regular education it's like you know I forget the category but more like mental health support, because the community was asking and I think that the Council certainly can reflect and probably relate to community feedback on areas similar areas that you all are experiencing in the past year or two. I think I want to say and I said this, you know, I'm not saying it to be flipped Andy Joe I said the same thing at the Council meeting is the school committee requested that we provide a level services budget for this year. So we provided a level service budget. I think, I think you're rightly point out and has been talked about ad nauseam and this district but more than one of my other districts of late, that this is not a sustainable path and that has to make some very difficult decisions, because right now we're not operating on that as worried about Andy and choice, because a number of choice students if we want to take more choice students we could that's, you know we have flexibility on that but we don't have flexibility on that forever so I think I think to your point. And I think that's feedback that you know certainly Doug and I can bring back to the school committee at the regional level, something we're aware of, and you know at this level of s or funding support. You know it feels a little more comfortable than one of my other districts. I think you've been pretty public about that so I think you're right to note that the path of sustainability isn't quite clear at the moment we do have some structural changes in terms of sixth grade moving out some some cost sharing with the Emerson elementary school district, and how that works we also have some class sizes grade level grade levels that are quite smaller and about, you know you look at fourth grade down. There's a significant drop in enrollment and so we do anticipate some efficiencies that can be realized once the students at the region but it's going to be a couple years today at the region. And, you know, I think we're trying to figure out how to bridge that gap till we get there until some of those other changes occur. And the other thing I was just going to add is relative to the change in enrollment for for the regional school district and really what we saw. And I think this has happened statewide is our enrollment in 1819 and 20 so fiscal years 1819 20 was was basically flat within three or four kids of each other each year. And then with fiscal 21 and 22 we've seen a significant drop and of course statewide that's happened with the pandemic significant drop. So in enrollment and it's just a little.  And it takes a bit for us to react and, you know, absorb that kind of change and modify our staffing levels to accommodate that but, but nonetheless if our if our student level state lower like they are now. We'll continue to, you know, refine and contract in some ways and try to, you know, maintain our, you know, richness of programming that we have for students but at the same time understand that, you know, we can have, you know, necessarily everything because we just don't have the number of students we've had in the past. And do you have anything follow up or otherwise tell go ahead and ask for Matt. Hey, good morning. Thanks. Thanks, Andy. This is great. I really want to echo what Mandy Joe said about the, given us the full line item budget really appreciate that and thoughtful narrative and all the work that went into it really I mean it's above and beyond I think what what I was expecting so just really grateful for that. I guess I had a couple quick points and then and then the question. First of all, I just want to give you all a lot of credit Mike on the, on the programmatic side, you know, seeing that this bed tuition revenues, going up the way that they are really reflects such an incredible amount of work on your on your part on the staff you know that's a real difference maker when it comes to regional school districts and it's also a, you know, it's also a major expense suppressant because I mean if we have programs available then a lot of the, you know, a lot of the uncertainty that comes from new spec tuitions really helps us control for that a little bit. So I just I just give you guys a lot of credit for all the hard work you've done on that front. And of course, you know, that also connects to what was said about the, the special ed staffing. So I, I do notice you know the numbers have gone up on that staffing and I was just looking at our state profile, you know, we, we are for our other percentages where we're higher than you know than our neighbors would be for our for our special education population, and we're, we're lower than the state rates for our economically disadvantaged so we're kind of an outlier when it comes to high so special education rates, you know, which is, which is just just kind of a fact of life but I think, you know I notice a few more psychologists added to that, to that budget and, you know, things like that are really are necessary and can be cost containers in the long run so, you know, and also they're hard to find as we you know we were talking about the Crest program. A couple of months ago I mean it's that's not an easy staffing position to fill and, and having one in the long run is a much. It's a good investment I would, I would say. So, I give you a lot of credit for this, you know I do, I do share some of the concerns around, you know, how answer bridges versus, you know, boost that level but I, you know I think nobody nobody in this college is unaware of some of those challenges coming up. The only question I have is maybe a little sort of in the weeds as they say but I noticed that we had a Medicaid expansion reference early on, you know to the IEP students. I'm sorry Medicaid reimbursement reference to the IEP students and I know Doug and my I'm sure y'all are familiar but Medicaid expanded a few years and particularly for districts where we do have a lot of clinical services. You know any student who who has services from eligible providers is eligible for a Medicaid reimbursement and I'm just wondering if that is something that you know just hadn't updated in the narrative in the opening or if we're not pursuing the Medicaid expansion funds because depending on on your where you work that can be a pretty significant chunk of reimbursement. Because the narrative hasn't been updated, I can almost guarantee that I didn't review that as closely and put that in there but nonetheless, you know, we certainly pursue any of the whole Medicaid dollars that we can, you know, and if you look at sort of recent history and Medicaid reimbursements have gone down, or that was just the pandemic we weren't physically in spaces with kids to do those services in a lot of ways. So our eligible costs that we could get reimbursable were a lot lower in the last couple years, those are returning to, you know, pre pandemic levels with being in school all year. But I think I probably failed to update the nuance of the of the narrative in the in the book so I'll take that and try to make that correction. Thank you. Okay, great. Anything else, Matt? I do want to ask a question that whoever signed on about 10 and 15 minutes ago using Lynn sign in and has just the P on the screen would be helpful to. Okay. Thank you, because so we need to we need to know who that was for the sake of the minutes since son is keeping the minutes he is used to know who who's here so thank you very much. I'm going to change your name on the screen. It can just have an event. We're what we're doing now is continuing with questions just in order of all present Dorothy. Thank you next. Yes. Hi, and I'm in my car because the cleaning lady is in the house. And that's the only way I can do the meeting right now. I wanted to speak up for regular education which is does not have as strict rules as special education. I guess I was a little perturbed at the example of the school nurse cost saving with a larger group. I just want to remind you that regular students at this time are, I'm sure increasingly acting up up and there's a lot of silence suffering.  I understand the budget tightness and all of the things but I am hoping that more counselors therapy nurses and whatever will be available to the regular at students because they need it. So thank you. I can respond to that just briefly, and I'm sorry I should clarify the comment with the nurses, we're not looking to reduce nurses it's just, well the same number of students next year, or a year and a half from now, they'll just be structured differently, and that'll happen again two years after so it's it's really about cost sharing between the districts there wasn't no reduction of nurses and it's not indicated, we've increased our mental health support that's accessible to all students not education students and I think the last thing that to note is that, you know the change in the high school schedule to the block does create some efficiencies. And so there are class sizes remaining very very comparable or better than comparable to neighboring districts at the secondary level, and at the high school which I'm speaking about specifically. The block schedule allowed for students to spend more of their day in class, which is a good thing there's less passing periods and passing periods are the bane of many school administrators experiences but also it's lost learning time. And actually because of the way the schedule functions allows us to even outclass size in a way where our class size is better than it was two years ago. It's at the school level, and that's not with adding staff. That's just more efficient use of staffing. So I do want to note that, you know many Joe's point is absolutely well taken. But at the same time we're not seeing classes of 35 or you know, our average class size is in the low 20s. We provide a report for the regional school committee in the fall that detailed that by class by by individual class as well as by content area. We don't want anyone leaving the meeting feeling like all the class sizes are full at 32 students that that's not our high school that's not our secondary school system. You know we've been able to realize some efficiencies over time both by changing schedule and reduction in student enrollment, but we retain very low class size which is important for all of our students are regular at on special education students. Thank you. Yeah. First of all, thank you for the detailed budget. It actually was available we just didn't post it. And, but we were able to find it with Doug's help and send it out. This may be a fairly complicated question so let me preface it by saying. First of all, we're able to demonstrate during the discussion of the program for the new elementary school, a serious change in how you deal with special ed, and that that has led to the ability to keep more special ed students in district than rather them out. Personally, I want to thank you for that, being the parent of a special ed student, putting a most vulnerable kid on a bus to go an hour away is not my idea of a good time, or a good decision. So, have you taken that model to the high school, and does that model in the high school, therefore, reflect in some of the increased special ed costs so that's one question. And then I want to be very careful not to suggest that I want to signal out special ed, because I think signaling out special ed is as many many downsides, but when you provide us with staffings and student and budget trends. And to in fact also provide us with trends regarding special ed students and indicate in those budgets when you began to expand to the more in district services that you now provide than what you would then otherwise and again I want to be really clear. This is not to suggest we shouldn't be doing this. It's not to try to tell you how to run your schools. It is to try to help understand what some of the impacts are on our budget. So, thank you. We can do the first part and I'll turn to Doug for the second part so they answer your question yes we have built our programs and special education at the middle school and high school level as well. We have much less significant. It's funny with the state data because when you compare it, you know we have a split district most districts and we're no different. We have about a district placements at the secondary level in the elementary level just because the nature of secondary students. It's harder to engage, depending on students needs in high school schedule courses that it is in second grade. Inclusion opportunities are a little more present so that said, we have a robust set of specialized programs we spend a fair fair bit of funds a couple years ago to reform and improve our program for our most disabled students at the high school with some infrastructure improvements at the space, as well as staffing pieces along with it so to enter your question absolutely. Recently, especially in our ninth grade programs a little bit in our 10th grade programs we worked on in co teaching inclusion model. That's been very very successful at the at that grade level once you get to the elective programs 11th 12th grade, you know, the management of that becomes a little more challenge but at a core core courses. We have a considerable amount more inclusion that we were five six years ago and that's good thanks a good work of Talib Mickey Grimacki at the high school Sam camera but also favorite your student services director. So, and I want to be honest that we have more students who go out of district and that's the nature of secondary schools. Well below the mean, if you if you look at secondary schools and you can access some of this data not all but some of the state website they're not designed for multiple districts sharing a central office the way that you and many other districts in Western Mass have set it up, but well below the mean on that field across the state. I'll let Doug jump in on kind of how that's reflected in the budget documents, but I really appreciate the question and the framing. And the only thing I'll add is that, you know, we certainly can put together, you know, as a sort of request from earlier, I can add in some of the, some of the requests relative to trends and special education students. I think one of the tricky things there is want to make sure not to, you know, identify anybody in that process. You start to take it into some of those things, the numbers start to get small they start to get identified will definitely avoid that in that regard. You know, identifying what those trends have been like, and what kind of programming we've done with sort of implemented certain aspects of programming over the over the recent years. I'll just echo what the superintendent said and that is the number of students we have, although more in our secondary versus our elementary that are in out of this replacements number we have relative to many other districts is considerably lower. It's, you know, those programs I would suggest are very cost effective for us. So, can I do a follow on Andy. Sure. Okay, I also want to add that this is not in any way to diminish the regular program. When you do the comparison. Is there any way to look at if you had to send those students out of district, what it would cost compared to keeping those students. I don't mean the ones you're already sending out, but I mean the ones that probably you're now able to accommodate that you weren't able to accommodate six years ago. Okay, that's a little bit of comparison because somebody might say well, you know if it means an extra teacher, then why not pay the tuition going out. The second question is in. When you do tuitioning in clearly Amherst is a very attractive district to tuition in if you're special ed. I think it's more money for that. And should you get more money for that. And what should we be doing about that. So, I'll answer that and I think as far as you know comparing sort of kids that are retained in district versus being sent out of district. It will be imperfect but nonetheless I think we can make that kind of a comparison just to sort of see what that what that Delta is between those two.  We're running the tuition in question yet. We have a, you know, we have a couple programs that that do take students from other districts. You know, as far as, you know, for setting a price we do charge those districts it's not, you know, it's not the, the school choice sort of $5,000 kind of thing it's a we, we, we go through the process of a determining what our program costs and administrative costs. We have to stay competitive in some respects I mean it sounds weird it's sort of like, you know, thinking in terms of a profit center but it's not really overlooking to do is try to cover costs that we would incur if the students comes to our, our program. So we do factor those things in and, and, and reevaluate and assess those those towns based on on what we need to cover our costs there's some of course economy at scale we get sometimes when we bring another student in so that's helpful to our district in that regard. But it's it's really about, you know, I think if you if you spoke to some of our program leaders in that it's about finding the right match for the student and getting the best education they can, and that's really the sort of primary focus and the fact that we can offset those costs with you know the sort of make sure that that that home district in our district are kind of holding our own and, and covering the costs that we're responsible for. Thank you. Um, so, actually, I'm going to vary the order, because we've a couple people who've asked to be recognized second time at Bernie to be active. You haven't spoken yet. And that's any questions so recognize Bernie next. Thank you. Thank you. And I do want to congratulate and thank Mike and Doug in four. And they're in a difficult position there. They're stuck between multiple committees. But they've got to maneuver through all that and I really appreciate their collaborative approach to this, rather than a combative approach and it's really refreshing, given my experience with other school districts. So thank you gentlemen. You know, I'm a long history and working with special needs folks and the question I have is in terms of state reimbursement. I know there's a threshold. I know that threshold varies and I'm wondering if that what that threshold is and how much reimbursement we can expect in future years because this is always backward looking for our special ed efforts right now and the second question I had this morning was announced that CBI inflation on the consumer price index is like 8.4%. Doug, you touched very briefly on inflation's impact but there are other inflation tends to hit governments a little harder government operations a little harder because of the way services are purchased and I'd like you expand just a little bit more in your comments on inflation impact on the budget. Thank you. Sure, so I can, you know, take that last question first I think a little bit, you know, we try to anticipate, and we get some information from some of our vendors relative to the cost increases that they're seeing or they're anticipating for us and so we try to factor that into our budgets, within where we can, obviously unexpected cost increase, unexpected cost increases are obviously very very difficult to deal with. You know, that's where, you know, our sort of mentioned the budget during the year and I think this coming years would be really difficult in that regard, it's going to be tricky because you know they're just going to be some costs that are, you know, higher and significantly higher in some areas. Then they've been in the past and will sort of outstrip what we budgeted so we'll have to sort of conserve in some other areas to meet the need and cover the costs.  You know, price decreases which don't have been offered, you know, are welcome and much easier to deal with. But nonetheless, yeah, it's going to, if inflation continues on the track it has been over the last several months in particular. It's, it will prove to be a challenging year to manage the budget as we go ahead. To your question about. The current threshold for that, it's called a certain breaker program in special education. The current threshold is is in the about $45,000 rate so caught we have to spend about 45,000 before any money is eligible for reimbursement once you get above that threshold, then the state prices at a percentage of those costs so they try to reimburse the special education costs about 75% in the last couple years they've added transportation costs as eligible costs as well. So once they reimbursed 75% of those eligible special education costs and 25% of the transportation costs are eligible for reimbursement, and they're going to work towards higher levels reimbursement on those is the goal. So you have to incur in-house a fairly significant level of expense before you begin to have eligible costs year over year. I mean it varies depending on the number of students that hit that threshold for us. But you're over here in the regional schools that amount of money is in the, you know, 6 to $800,000 range. It's a lagging indicator because we do the we do the work in one year. They reimburses the next we budgeted the following year. So, you know, and as student population in that category of extraordinary expense changes, then those numbers go up and down and try to leverage those funds in a coherent way and budget for them accordingly and help reduce our future costs based on our past efforts. And it's a pretty significant support to the budget and, you know, obviously if it's able to defund that reimbursement at a higher level would be very, very beneficial for ourselves and every other district in the commonwealth. Kathy. Thanks Andy. I have a question based on just seeing something in the newspaper but that we have this new Crest program that we've opened up in the town and it looks like it was helpful to bring in the current director, the recently hired director into the high school. So, do you see when Essar funds run out I think one of the things you said is that you were staffing up during this time period is people came back because of pandemic impact is, will that program, potentially be of use to the regional school system. Like said and or local so it's a, it's sort of a question looking into the future because it is staffing well you know what it is is staffing with mediation with mental health skills with talking with people restorative justice kind, you know trying to work through conflict. So it's a, is there any synergy with that program is my question. Yeah, I think. I think there will be best to answer that question but I can share that I you know I did have a meeting two weeks ago perhaps with with with her all the director and with Talib at the high school and there was another one set one of those colleagues as well. I think what I heard and what we know is that, oftentimes the challenges we see in school are are integrally connected with the challenges that are existing in the community so from his perspective and I share that. If you're going to address one you sort of have to address the other right and I think even. So it was interviewed I'm not sure what they did the paper today about some of the challenges a few weeks ago at the high school is, you know, the days of when many of us were in high school or school and conflicts actually originated in school that that's a thing that never happens but it pretty rarely happens it's really challenges that existing in the community and online community coming into school and that's what we see on a more regular basis and so we hope that we're able to maintain the level of dialogue that we've started. I found just boots in the ground that let me show up, let me see with me kids and I think it was a real commitment also about training anyone in the community but including our inclusive of our middle school and high school students on active bystander work of anti racism work and that really connects to a lot of the work we're doing in the district with a different lens. You know, frankly many of the high schools in the United States I would say most maintain public safety officer in our schools are regional school committee has never allowed for that, or at least not in the last 25 years and I can't go back that far, or further than that. And we have a good relationship with the Amherst police department, I don't want to suggest that we don't but we don't have a regular presence. And, and so this is a different opportunity for us to think through and I just appreciate Talob and and Earl's willingness to engage just to, you know, be present and make some relationships with students and you know what we say is they're often the same relationships that would need to be formed within our communities, just be the captive audience in school right less captive audience in the community. And so I think it's in everyone's best interest that we're making those connections and building those bridges between press and the schools in the community and just really happy to have partners who are eager and excited to be working together. Sean, you had your hand up in a few. Yeah, I was only going to say that we should think about moving to capital. Pretty soon, only because we have Amy and go for it in the audience for the for the next agenda item so. I was thinking about that too. I want to wrap this section up. A couple of counselors who are still have questions. And I may or may not ask one afterwards but we do need to move along to capital. Actually, that was part of my questions which is I have a lot of questions that don't necessarily relate to the operating budget they're more revolving fun questions or use of revolving funds and things like that. How should I email Andy to forward them on to get answers where where do I send those questions, because they're not directly related to operating so that's my first question and then I guess I wanted to follow up on my other question about just the level the portion of the budget dedicated to any particular area, you know, there are certain things as Doug said that are non discretionary spending that just go up health insurance we can't do anything about it right. You know transportation costs you have a contract you can't do anything about it and by state law you have to provide something by state law you have to provide a free and appropriate education for all students, not just special education students. So I am concerned that as those non discretionary spending increases and pushes puts pressure on the whole budget that the, the decision is being made to cut regular regular education, but not cut special education and that that that pressure on the budget is being felt on equally between the students in regular education and the students in special education so that was that was where I was trying to go with the question as to why are we spending less in real dollar in actual dollars this year than five years ago because I fear were were the regular education students and that part of the program is taking the brunt of the pressure that all budgets, you know, especially in this inflationary period all budgets are going to face massive pressure. When you decide where to put that money. And so, so that I just have a concern about that that that it's being taken, and, and, you know, the brunt of that pressure is being experienced on the regular education side than the special education side and I don't know whether that's true but I'm looking at the budget. That's, that's somewhat of potentially what I see. Just a quick response to that concern. So, we have not cut regular education in the budget we're not cut any positions this year. A couple years ago we did have some shifts we also a cut that's hard to realize in a budget book as we move some of the Academy from the old building into the high school there's, I think the reason it's hard to realize is that that reduction was about the six digits. And it repeats every year. In other words, if we hadn't made that shift. We would still have a lot of staffing that we don't currently need so you don't show that every year, but the reality is it was a structural change. I think my, and this is going to sound nitpicky I suppose but when students have IEP is and they talk about services, you know, I don't do that as discretionary. Right it's not like I can say no we're going to cut the budget therefore, you're no longer going to get math special education services that's not in the discretionary part of what Doug or Ralph are able to do and I think the challenge of special ed is right that happens in IEP meetings that occur every day throughout the school year and those decisions are made by team meetings that's defined by the state. And so, I definitely get the larger point but I think when we look at discretionary spending. We rarely have a lot of flexibility within special education because it's based on IEPs that are signed and formed by a team as per, you know, the state protocol. I think that's one of the reasons you're not seeing a lot of cuts in special education is that, you know, most of the costs related special education are not discretionary. So, but I don't mean to pick on the word to use but I think it is just a useful distinction, because it's our reality. So, thank you. I don't see any hands up at the moment I know that Jennifer you had your hand up but then take it down again so you're okay or do you have something. No, I can email in my question. Okay, so thank you for saying that because I was going to conclude this Mandy raised same question which is, if you have questions that you think of that you'd like to pose later. It's okay with Mike and dog. What I would suggest is that we try and assemble any additional questions and forward them so that we don't prolong this morning. If you could email them to me I will share them with Lynn and Sean and we will try and put the questions together. If there are additional questions and forward them and it would be helpful to set a deadline. And maybe a week from today might be the best way for if you have additional questions so that we have time to do something and get them along during the vacation week Lynn. I just want to make sure that as you compile questions and we get answers, those answers would be made available to all counselors and to the public. Yes. We should make it clear that anything that comes in the way of questions and answers would need to be public accessible information because this is part of a meeting of the whole. So with that. Let's try and get on to the capital questions and I don't know if either Mike or Doug want to say anything initially about the capital before we open that up to questions done. I think I just want to be clear about the pieces of the puzzle we have here. So there's the capital assessment which is shown in this slide right. Right one here in here and particularly the line right there. That's for debt that has already been issued capital projects that have been approved and are either in process or completed and we borrowed the money in order to to accomplish those and so that's part of the budget. That's, you know, an assessment that that will be paying debt that is already incurred. The proper part of this screen is the new debt authorization that we are asking for to do capital projects. There's about $160,000 of sort of standard or classic capital projects and then there's the fields and track project, and we did those authorizations, the school committee did those authorizations in sort of two steps and for that's because the hundred and sixty thousand is sort of the standard authorization we asked for and and the standard process and kind of programs that we asked for and so that's one because the nature of the track projects a little more complex that authorization was done separately and it has sort of two pieces to it. The key thing to keep in mind I think is that authorization for $1.5 million in balling for a track project. There are two sort of flavors of that. There's, you know, and either options that are available there's no decisions has been made yet relative to which ones it is dependent but that language that we use for that authorization that the school committee did allows for the expiration of different options relative to how to execute on on the need there. The critical piece and is that the track as it currently exist is becoming unusable is not able to host host track meets home track meets it's becoming more and more difficult to be useful for classes as well as practice for track. So there's need to take action relative to that. And of course, in a larger scheme, it would be advantageous to rotate its orientation so the interior field facing a north south direction which is a much more playable circumstance and creates a much better utilization of the fields and space around the school. But nonetheless, the critical question that we're asking is, is for the authorization to borrow in order to do a project, which project will play out over time. So I think I'll stop there. I want you guys to pose one of the questions you might have but I wanted to draw the distinction between the assessment that we need authorization for which is a budgetary thing and payment of sort of debts owed and and will be coming do and then the authorization which is for you borrowing for future projects and and needs. Thank you. Sean, did you. Yeah, I'll just add that there was a request at the one at the presentation to the council we had combined these into one financial order. There was a request to separate the track and field from the other projects and Sony has gone ahead and done that so for the hearing and the subsequent finance community and we'll have we'll provide you with the two separate capital orders or two separate debt authorizations for one for the track and field and then one for everything else. And the plan for the track and field is that you're seeking additional donations and other funding. If southern to build on the base amount into the larger project. And are you planning to approach Amherst CPA committee and other CPA committees to is a part of that effort. This is the short answer. So we're obviously if we can, you know, leverage CPA from each of the communities will go back to the Amherst CPA. I'm scheduled to go to the column CPA meeting. The lever to choose very CPA meet on a different cycle. I'll probably engage with them as I engage with their, with their community about other levels of funding they might be able to provide from other sources whether the CPA funds, ARPA funds, reserves, whatever the mechanisms they might have to help support this project. So we'll be working with each of the four towns to find those other resources that said sort of external to the traditional regional assessment method, but would be necessary in order to a larger, a larger project and so that's a bit of work that's in process and we're, we're definitely reaching out to any and all resources and each of the four communities. We go to counselor questions on the capital and then need to come back for explanation but Dorothy. I would like to suggest a slightly different angle on the fundraising effort for the track. Instead of going to community sources which are contested for other causes. I think this is a great naming opportunity for somebody with a lot of money to pay for most of it just I mean really the big bucks, because some people are not happy with the fancy track being competing for CPA money with other causes and yet there are other people who'd love to have the track named after them. So, I'm wondering if you're looking at the really the big donors, as well as the usual donors. The short answer is, yeah we absolutely are looking at those types of things, you know, conversations we've had today with with some of the fundraisers have been looking at those types of things those kind of options, whether they be a larger single donor or multiple large donors, you know, certainly avenues of exploration are currently going on and, you know, we're, we're happy to entertain any and all of those options and those ideas and, and, you know, likewise we would look at you know there are initially national organizations that provide grants. That a few years ago with the tennis courts here at the middle school USTA had a fairly significant grant program and put very, very modest limitations on us if we can find similar ones like that will use those as well so you know we'll definitely seek those kinds of opportunities. Okay, well thank you so just think big that's. Thank you. A couple of questions that the debt schedule that's on the screen right now that was in the presentation is different in numbers than the debt schedule on page 164 of the budget. And I know some of it's because there's a lot of projected debt in the other one. But so the question is the one on the screen doesn't actually include the borrowing for the one and a half million for the track project I think if I'm looking at it. The question on the page 164 is debt budget projection says it includes the track borrowing at various levels but I couldn't find it as separately set out so that's just a, am I missing it somewhere, whereas it included. The 10 year budget has window and door replacements at $10 million at the high school with the roof being only $5 million. So I'm having trouble understanding how the roof is, how windows and doors cost double the amount of the roof. So, so that that would be helpful for for me and then the debt schedule on 164 stops with projections at FY 27 it says which means the roof in FY 28. The windows in FY 30 aren't even on this debt projection schedule. And so, one of my big questions is, these numbers get big not just for Amherst but for Pelham for lever it for shoots very in this 10 year plan and don't even include a 17 million in borrowing starting in FY 28 and FY 30. Is it even possible for not just Amherst but Pelham shoots very elaborate to pay the assessments if all of this would happen, and such that is this even a logical plan, and then as it relates to the track, I'm having a lot of concern or struggle with the fact that we are being asked to authorize borrowing for a project we don't know which one will be going for so the question I have is, you know, because to me, a project for just replacing the track is much different than doing a grass turf field that will allow a lot more heavy use on the fields and all that. And I have different thoughts about them. And so why are we being asked to authorize the borrowing before all of the fundraising has been done and we can be told exactly which project is being done why do we need to authorize the borrowing now why did the school committee go forward with that instead of figure out whether they could raise the money, and then come back with this is the project we're doing. So, taking a few of those in different words so excuse me, the, the previous slide that was up that that showed the sort of, you know, the debt over the over the coming years doesn't include one and a half billion in borrowing. It doesn't hit the budget until fiscal 24. So, in terms of the funds in 23 the actual first payment doesn't hit until 24 includes the roof project at the middle school, which, which comes online that same year. I think the difficulty and what needs to happen relative to this and I haven't had the opportunity to do that is to balance out the sort of that over time it does get to be a bit. We've heard that from the other four, you know, the three committees as well it's it's a free high spike in the coming years, relative to those two larger projects the high school roof and the windows and doors. I'll say this in both circumstances we apply for MSBA programs like we have been for the, for the middle school route it's likely that that will push out how far into the future those will be, and they'll provide some support relative to reducing that cost in in the current sort of projection, we're taking on the full cost. Just as an example, you know the windows and door projects here at the middle school, I think was in the order of close to $6 million. And the estimates for the roof on this building are in this sort of $3 million range and so you know, there's, there's roughly that double it. And for whatever reason I think it's a, they're fairly expensive and they're also, you know, a lot more labors involved in getting installed and that sort of thing so that's why the scale of what you see at the high school it's much larger physical building and a lot more windows and doors to be to be replaced potentially there but in both those cases they're, they're very broad and rough estimates at this point I think they're also likely to get pushed further out into the future. And then there are other projects within that capital plan that will get adjusted depending upon when some larger projects come online or don't come online so we have some, you know, some larger paving projects and that sort of thing that will do probably in smaller chunks and also potentially depending on when, say the group would get the MSBA reimbursement support, you know, would impact when that happens. And again on what's showing here, you know, there's a slight adjustment to the, you know, fiscal 23 that went down a little bit by virtue of some refinement of some numbers and some higher paying off of principle and so the amount of debt that we have is a little bit less. And now years, you know, as currently, you know, sort of structured, yes, this is a pretty aggressive and, and expensive plan and will will necessarily require some fine tuning to be able to be affordable by the communities, Amherst and the other three. So if I recognize that and we'll need to find that as we move ahead and get a little more specifics about the different things. So as far as the authorization, you know, the den authorization and the request for the, the authorization at this point in time. Regional school committee can can authorize that at any point in time, but they haven't in a 60 day sort of clock starts relative to each town's ability to accept or reject that if they take no action it's a pocket approval. And actually, anytime we've asked for borrowing from the fourth reason we do it on cycle and so there's not typically or not always fall town meetings so we traditionally do our debt authorization, such that it hits all the spring town meetings and gives every town an opportunity to weigh in, whether they're okay or not okay with that authorization. So that's part of why it's coming for you at this point in time. Another thing is that track needs replacement now. I mean that's a short story, and it really cannot wait and and so well I think everyone is hopeful to do a larger more comprehensive project. The reality is that track needs to be replaced sooner than later and what this does by having authorization now is, and having it structured the way it is now what can be either just replacement in place or a larger project gives a fixed time for us to coordinate and fundraise around those other sources of funds and so I think that gives us a clear trajectory of timeline or for everyone to meet that need and try to raise those funds. We've been kind of pushing off, you know, the, you know, approaching this project and this problem because of the difficulty of that fundraising and knowing the need for it and it's been something that you just can't play any longer. And so that's why the authorizations in front of you now and, and it does set a timeline that will require us to sort of, you know, step up and meet those needs both from the communities and their commitments, separate from the regional agreement assessments, but also then in fundraising. So I think that's a couple of the reasons why you see that in front of you in the form that has a current time. If I could jump in just briefly two things one is that unfortunately I'm going to have to depart. I think Doug can stay a little later than me but capital is a good, a good, good one for Doug to lead on because he's much more knowledgeable but I think I just want to add to to what Doug said there, in response to the question about why the track and so I want to be unequivocal that I think it's in the best interest the region and the community that we do the larger project, you know, for all the reasons that you said many Joe right you know the turf field and talking to other superintendent being in other communities. It transforms, not just the athletic program but the year round use I mean the way facilities are built now. You can build a turf field that that it's truly year round that can be plowed can be, can be, you know, even the cold winter days we have kids and walk I work in a middle school right I see kids and how they dress despite the weather and if there was a field for them to play on they could play on that field despite being 38 degrees and we don't have that capability, and not just our students but our larger community so I think as a district, and I think the school committee was, I think I want to speak for them but I was very supportive of that effort. And we have questions about, you know, whether we can pull that off given other, you know, with all four towns and so the reason just to be blunt about it in there is the track needs to be replaced because it's not safe for kids. It's becoming not safe not just for me it's but for practices we have a lot of concerns from coaches around that it needs to happen one way or the other. And so what we didn't want to do with set up a high stakes scenario where, if the larger project didn't happen that we would be back to the drawing board because we've, we've been in this place for longer than I've been superintendent with this exact problem and we need to move the track it's not something that would take longer. And much like you I see the huge benefits that would, would come from the larger project, and totally I'm on board and I'll be out there singing the praises of why and I've done that at public meetings and will continue to do that. And I want to thank Dave Zomek and town staff who have also been integral partners in this I don't want anyone to leave this meeting feeling like this is only a district thing or only district employees have been involved. And even others from the town have been been heavily involved in these discussions, and Dave obviously knows this for many, many years so I just wanted to add those points I do apologize that I do have. I'm now 1516 minutes late for meeting I need to, I need to be at so I do apologize but Doug are you okay to stay a bit longer because I see those other hands up on the capital pieces. Yes, I am. All right, thank you all have a wonderful day. So my thank you very much for having been with us this morning we really appreciated that you're very open as to responding to questions and we realized that the track and the entire field is an important priority. And we're just trying to understand how to manage it and really admire your creativity doing that so thank you Mike. I'm going to continue on with. You're muted. Sean. Andy I was going to say just given the, given the hour, we might want to switch over to water and sewer regulations and take any remaining questions either through email or we are going to have another meeting where we can devote a bunch of time to this topic. But we're at 1030 and I know Amy and go further still with us. I'm happy to come back to. Okay. Let me just see if there's. Is there anyone.  If you have a question about capital that you feel needs to be asked now and need a response now, as opposed to submitting them in writing to be grouped as we talked about and let's see what they are that are left then Kathy and Lynn. Let me just do it in timing. So when is the next. Do we have time to have Doug come back. I'm happy to hold my question and send it. It's about, it's about the interaction with Sean's five year and Paul's five year capital plan and, you know, where's the money going to come from but I can send my very specific questions in on both. So I'm just, so would that be the next, I don't want this 60 day. I don't like the idea of the 60 day time landed ticking the clock ticking so do we have time to do this at the next meeting. 26 this is supposed to be a major agenda item. The answer is yes, correct. Let's ask Doug. This question for you. Can you join us on the 26th in the morning. I'm not going to hear sorry. I have a hard stop at 10am but I am available for that. Okay. Then, then, then I'll just send my questions in. Yeah, let's try and do it as much as possible with questions submitted in advance so that we adhere to Doug's limit. Lynn. Yeah, the only concern I have is there's more of a time crunch on this than there are on the regulations and I really think it's beneficial having 10 counselors in the room to kind of use the opportunity so I'm questioning whether that's it. I however have a question about this that I would like made at very public now. I would like to ask you as in terms of the two track and field plans is the most that you are asking for in terms of taxation 1.5 million. In other words, if we don't meet the fundraising and other ways of coming up with the rest of the money. That's the maximum you're going to come to Amherst or to the to the towns for. Yes, if, if, if depending on if we explore the larger project the larger price tag. Some of that they for funding may be tax based, but that'll be determination to reach the side what and how and someone will be depending upon fundraising but the, as far as through the regional agreement one and a half is the number that we will use as a sort of upper limit through the regional agreement. Thank you. Sean might be able to help with this to in the explanation but the way the process works for those who are not as quite as familiar with it. We set aside a percentage of the estimated tax revenue. It's then available for capital in each year. And the amount that we have committed ourselves for region expenses gets subtracted from that before and then other debt that we've taken on. So we've been subtracted to that before we can get on to the annual capital requests. So that is we're getting into the major building projects that we have talked about as a council food. Now since the council is the first council came into place and the commitments we've already made to the library and anticipate making for an elementary school, schools, DPW facility and fire station. We have to factor all of that together and it has a balance and I. Sean if you want to say anything further about that or because I think at some point, we do need to make a presentation for new counselors about how that works and how it's envisioned. Yeah, so as Andy said, when we do our capital planning we allocate a certain percentage for for capital every year and the first thing we do is deduct any debt obligations that we have from that amount. We treat the regional assessment like a debt obligation it's not technically our debt but it's effectively the same thing because the council authorized the region to take to proceed with that debt. So the regional assessment is also deducted from that top line of what we have for capital every year. So, whenever the council authorizes that it's, you want to understand the impact down the road in terms of what it will do to future capital plans and how much capital is available. By 23. We have estimated out an increase in the regional assessment you'll see in the capital improvement program that'll be presented in a few weeks that we've presented a projected a rise in the regional assessment related to some of these projects. I would not projected to go all the way up to what you'll see in the regional budget because, quite frankly for some of the reasons that have been described. It would use a baller capital, so we have to think we have to have more of a discussion about sort of timing and slotting of the projects. I don't know how many towns will have to have the same conversation, but we have projected a pretty substantial increase in the regional assessment starting in a couple years, and going on for some time to factor in some of these projects. So, some point, and I don't know if you thought about this Lynn but at some point we do need to find a mechanism and a time for a presentation of the entire funding plan for all major capital projects. Because we have so many new counselors who have not had the presentation previously. Thank you I'll look at our budget, our agendas and see when we can do that. So let me, there are two people of questions, let me get to them and then see where we are. Andy. Guilford message me that they can come back if we wanted to stick. It may be, we may be at the point where it doesn't make sense to take them anyway. So maybe we just finished this item out and, and we can invite Amy and Guilford to come back at the next meeting. Yes. Okay. Is that okay with you, Andy. Yes. Okay, then Amy and go for if you're listening. We apologize for you can come back. We'll work with you to schedule a agenda item at the next meeting. Yeah, well, I just want to build on what you and shown started saying I am. We just went through a JCPC reviewing of all the budgets where we were looking at a five year plan and as Sean knows it was already not completely imbalanced starting. 23 looks fine. It's 242526 that don't look as well. And we've got other big things coming down the pipeline because it was already drawing on reserves. So I don't personally see how we can make a decision on an authorization that goes even higher than what Sean already had in the budget for the regional schools without a much bigger discussion so it's not just educate the counselors on it but we're being asked to make a decision in the next 60 days. To extent I understand it affects a five to 10 year capital plan in a way that makes me really uncomfortable. You know, if we, if we, especially we include the track, Lynn at even we say it's no more than 1.5 spread over 20 years or 30 years. And it's it was. Yes, so I'll just stop there because it feels like I'm willing to come to back to this at the next but this seems like we're making a piece of a decision on a piece without looking at the whole, and that doesn't work well for me. I want to ask more questions about this other than the two numbers Doug when I go back and look at the 10% or the 10.5% we're holding out of the levy, unless you miraculously find that Amherst College or UMass would like to finance our track. You know, I mean that Dorothy's idea there's some deep pockets out there I don't see how this works within our 2324 2526 because any decision we make is a multiple year decision when we do a debt authorization so I'm just going to stop there on my discomfort on signal singling out one piece. I'm going to recognize Sean and Lynn first, but I want to just point out that the 60 days is running already that it's 60 days started on March 15, and we're committed to May 2 as the date to make a council decision on this because we need to do it at a council meeting within the framework. My comment really was broader than that so just come back to be later thank you. I was going to ask Lynn if she could put up the track and field PowerPoint again I just want to point out to people. I mean the debt schedules that are in the regional budget and the debt for this specific project. And I just want to really highlight the debt for the specific project so that you have a sense of what that is on an annual basis. And Doug, you know thanks to Doug for putting this presentation together. Is this what you mean. Yeah, so if you go down to where I think it talks about the Amherst share right there. So, this shows you a few things so one is the local taxation based on the 1.5 million. So that's that bottom table. So it would be roughly, you know, peak at 128,000 per year and decline. And then what we've projected Kathy and that five year plan as of right now I know there's other projects that will go into that but just so you, you kind of have a sense, we've projected that debt or assessment for the region going up to 800,000. It's currently at 380 or somewhere in the 300s, and some of that debt will also be paid off in the coming years so. So again when I talked about we've increased it to allow for some of these larger projects. That's what I'm talking about so this would be within that 800,000. There's still mean trade offs with other projects. And then the top chart is CPA so the region already did go to CPA and present this project. CPA put it on hold because they wanted. I think they were interested. The general consensus was I think more interest in the larger projects using CPA for the larger project and less so if it was just the smaller version of the project. And that's what that portion would look like coming out of CPA each year. And then the, you know, sort of the remaining pieces the town would need to come up with roughly another million dollars or so or 890,000. In order to meet the Amherst share, and that the timeline that Doug talked about in order for Amherst to meet its share we have to come up with that other source of funds. And that will require I think ongoing conversations about if, if the town is interested in pursuing this project where does that come from. There's different sources it could come from it could come from capital it could come from reserves it could come from potentially ARPA, but we need a bigger conversation I think to decide. I think some of the discussion I've heard is that in order to do effective fundraising. There needs to be some sign of investment by the town. I think it's what I've heard is it's harder to fundraise if there's zero investments set aside for the town so some of these votes to allocate funds for the larger project I think go a long way. In, in allowing fundraising to be successful. I'll keep that in mind as well as right now there's zero set aside for this project or maybe, maybe 75,000 Doug and stabilization from a prior year or something like that, like that set aside for for either these projects. And I think the last thing I'll say is, you know, the options in front of the council are to vote yes, vote no, or do nothing and if you do nothing that's effectively a yes vote. So it all it takes us one town to vote no on the debt authorization for that that authorization to fail. So, of no vote means sorry this isn't happening it has to go back to, to the school committee. Thank you. And back to you and then demanding. So, what this raises for me is the need for us to go back to the larger presentation about overall capital and debt that includes the four big capital projects, and a time to do an update with the council. And I'll consult with Sean with Paul and Sean as to when we might do that. And so that it is available. And if it can be available in a timely way it's no small job to update that present that whole model. But I think that this is raising for all of us the question of our debt ceiling, our debt, what we're asking for in taxes, and the values we have for our community, which is kind of all wrapped up in all of that. And of course, eventually, as we move along with the elementary school project, and we're going to be getting into the question of what we asked for voters in a debt exclusion override, which is essentially where we're asking them to allow us to raise taxes in order to increase the amount that we're borrowing for capital and funding for capital. That's not already in the local taxation type of allocation. So, these are important issues for the council as a whole. Thank you. Thank you. As with when I think we need some more information. I look at the debt budget on 164 which I know is just like estimates and all of that, but on page 164 that combines the projected f y 23 debt into f y 2456 and seven but yet we're being asked to authorize the f y 23 debt. I'd like to see a new debt budget debt schedule that has that includes all the already approved ones which I think is includes the roof debt for the middle school that's a line that seems like it's projected and but that's already passed so that's going to happen. I think that f y 21 debt has already been authorized f y 22 debt has already been authorized but f y 23 is not set out separately. Please set out separately the fields please set out separately the rest of the f y 23 debt and then maybe separately from that 24 2526 and then somehow for Sean incorporate that into our CIP plan. So that we can really see as it relates to Amherst what that looks like. I have a couple of questions. Didn't last year or the year before the town council authorized and allocate CPA funds to the track project and so what happened to that. My bigger one is if the fundraising isn't enough by January know you put a deadline in to cover a larger project do the towns have another opportunity to say hey we do want to do it and make up that difference or not or is this vote that final vote because I guess I recognize the need or to push fundraising forward the towns to be in it but right now the towns are just in it with a project not that project or another project and so that's that's part of my concern is you're asking us to authorize one and a half million without indication as to which project it's being it will go to and and that's I'm very uncomfortable with that, versus authorizing one and a half million for x project, or one and a half million for y project, or not or yes or both or, you know, I'm just uncomfortable with well if we don't raise the money will spend that anyway on a project that we're not sure the town support or not. And, and so I struggle with that and and would like to find a way to really say yes to say the larger project or no to the larger project and the way the authorizations and the votes are now we can't one way or the other because it's just for a project so we can't indicate our support one way or the other. So if I may I'll speak that a little bit. Just back to your original comment about CPA yes that the hammer CPA did fund and you're on a blank on the amount I want to say about $150,000 of CPA funds, and it was require it's available for use those include the need to do the larger project that rotates attract that would reduce the CPA number. This is based on the totality of this so it's in a sense already, you know, 150 or so thousand that 947 has been has been approved. This is, you know, there would be an additional ask quite frankly for the, for the differential there. And certainly that's about when we came to the CPA earlier this year that was the differential is about 800,000 so it's, it's right in the neighborhood of the same total ask of the project for CPA for hammers. You know, the thing is, is that if the regional schools. If they did to distinct authorizations, then. And the four communities. They did both of those. Now we have an authorization for $3 million. And we have the authority to then borrow that money and, and assess you that money. And so that's part of why they, it's a single authorization that was brought before you with two options available was so as not to essentially put on the books, a larger amount of authorization. And again it's in part of the rationale for that is because it is a passive yes if you don't take action. You know, we didn't want to put anyone in that bond where they had to formally say no or formally say yes to both and if something were to happen. And, you know, we've experienced this where deadlines are not met because of COVID or whatever, and telling get shifted in ways that don't allow them to take action. You know that we didn't want to put any particular talent in that sort of circumstance at the same time I think that the best way I would suggest is, is that if you were supportive of a larger project would be to this is my opinion to take it for that it's not a school for me or otherwise would be to vote to authorize the one and a half million, and then both to, you know, or take action by, you know, by the town of Amherst to cover those other amounts of money needed for that larger project and to do everything you can to encourage your, your other member towns to carry their weight as well, and and to help with the fundraising, I think that that's the circumstance.  And I, and I don't think that the project and we need to sort of, as the superintendent said the safety factor relative to that track is one that doesn't allow for delay and so then making a decision early January next year allows us to get the process rolling and construction process and in the design and the subsequent construction process, moving as quickly as we can. So, you know, it does put you in an odd spot because it's not a specific project, I fully understand and get that I think that, you know, the, as the superintendent said the, the indication from the discussion to school committee is a very supportive of the larger project. And so it's really, I think, in voting to authorize I think then, if you want the larger project and it's about each of the four communities working together to find a way to find that other funding and make that project happen. The school committee is supportive of that larger project. So I think it's really, it puts us in an uncomfortable spot but we're in a bit of a chicken and egg circumstance around this as far as trying to do fundraising with that, you know, and, and using some, some concrete steps by communities so that fundraisers and fundraisers can have some confidence in what they're donating toward, and, and at the same time it puts each of the communities in a little bit of an awkward spot because they're, they're authorizing the project. And what you're really authorizing is replacement of track at a minimum. It's, you know, sort of the minimum thing you're going to do and replace the track which is that's playing me being replaced, and you know there is an option available for a larger project. And she hands up a minute. Just the privilege for a second set. I tend to view it as a vote, pretty much as Doug described it, which is why I think I don't share the feeling that we need to know exactly which project it is to go forward because question for me is, at the minimum, do we want to have a credible track and field program for the Amherst regional schools, and if it's important to have a credible track and field program. Because there are lots of reasons that can put forward for saying that it is, then it is worth going with the project, if it was only. Yes, I'd like to see it be more I hope it's more. Making that initial commitment increases the opportunity that it is more, but I in the end it's going to be voting on the assumption that in the lowest scenario worst case scenario. It is just for the limited purpose but I think it's an important limited purpose but that's a decision that each counselor. We're all going to have to make for ourselves. Michelle, you're next. Thank you. And I do want to acknowledge as a new counselor and as a new member of the finance committee, this is a lot to digest. And so I really appreciate any efforts to give counselors more background or more time for discussion within the timeframe that we have. And to keep us abreast to any additional conversations that may be or that may occur around this that would be helpful for us. I have two questions. The first is just a curiosity around how long this track. How long was it known that this track was in need of repair or replacement and was there any sort of reserves that were being set aside and and sort of generally as a practice if we know that there's something that is deteriorating or will need replacement. How does that get handled and the more specifically, I'm curious if we are as a council able to vote on an amended authorization to force a greater investment from the community or is it sort of just a yes no choice for us. So I'll answer the second one first. It's a bit of a yes no, the authorization comes from the regional school committee. They make the recommendation for for borrowing, and then each of the four towns has an opportunity to accept or reject that within that 60 day timeframe. I can't alter that authorization that is under the purview of the regional school committee. Regarding the general, you know, issues around the track it's it's planning and project planning around this. You know, we've had conversations we've done the track was was in a forced it repair for a while it's gotten increasingly worse. You know, we, you know the regional schools in cooperation with the town of Amherst did a recreation working group for the downtown area so there's a number of fields throughout the downtown. We partnered with Western Samson to do a bit of a master planning process relative to those those fields and partly because we knew that there was a fairly large capital ask in regard to this track and and the other fields in and around the area that are. It's going to be difficult to sort of realize master plan and and we knew that a big first step would be the replacement of the track so it's been known for a number of years. And, and, you know, and didn't anybody any favors relative to timing and getting started but I think the difficulty we've run into also is such a large and multifaceted from a funding standpoint project. Because, you know, once we sort of know the numbers of what it takes to do it, we also recognize we can't just assess that through our regional process we need to have support from other things like donations and grants and gifts and other things. And so that makes it a lot more complex which inherently makes things go a little bit slower so that's, that's slow things down but again, you know, the difficulty we're facing is the tracks continue to deteriorate sometimes not on our side. We started looking at this in earnest, the last, you know, four or five years, we've been looking at this in earnest and really being in some ways kind of perplexed at how difficult task and what what potential avenues we could explore to try to move this forward so you know we've kind of been pressed into forcing people, you know, forcing decisions and people's hands in some respects by the nature of the project and the status that we're in and so we've had to kind of in a way sort of forge ahead relative to some actionable steps that people can take and hopefully we can still execute on that larger plan which I think most people are in support of just because they recognize the value it brings both the region school and the center banners. Andy, is it okay if I add to that quickly? Yes. As Doug mentioned we've known about it for a while, when the track came up on the region capital plan when it was just a track replacement, the decision was made at that time, you know, mostly driven by the athletic director to explore this larger project, because at that same time we were having lots of field condition issues. It was a year that there was a lot of droughts and the fields were, you know, in really rough shape. We formed the working group as Doug described and we had a strategic plan put together. And at that time the strategic plan gave a very wide range of costs, I think it said it could cost anywhere from 2 million to 6 million to do this project. So it was helpful but not super helpful because it wasn't a detailed dive into a specific project. We did set aside a little bit of money, Doug would have to go back and look and see what those contributions were. When the region had good years, we did put a little bit into stabilization funds specifically for this project. However, the region has not had many good years where we were able to do that but there was at least one I recall. And then, so after we had the strategic plan, as Doug mentioned, we were able to go back or I think Doug went and got CPA funds to start diving into this project further. And just in the past several months we were able to get the more detailed cost estimate of what this project would be. I think sometime in, was it December or January? Doug, maybe a little bit after that. Engage with them, they finished up in sort of mid-February. Okay, then we got the more specific 4.7 price tag. So it's been a long time, a lot of planning, sort of thinking about what this could be. And then as Doug mentioned, the pandemic didn't help in terms of moving everything forward. Thank you, Bernie. Yeah, I would, I'd feel, I think more comfortable if I knew exactly what we were buying and, you know, so Doug's statement that we're basically voting for the minimum plan is helpful. I'm curious as to how much conversation has gone into this, these options in terms of the use of CPA money. Because option four, which has the AstroTurbo, the artificial turf in it, adds even more complications in terms of doing that and using CPA money. So you're basically, you're basically at that point inviting a separate entity with some legal standing to purchase the, and install the artificial turf, then donate it to the region to get around the limitations on CPA money. So this question about how much that's been explored. And, you know, I think I'd be more comfortable with people saying this committee is going to be saying, we want this and we're going to have it done by this time and this is how we're going to get there rather than to roll out a series of what is And is it okay if I speak to the first one about the CPA. Yeah, I think I was going to ask you to do somebody do that. Yeah, so so we have spoken with the CPA coalition, and we've worked with our attorneys on this piece you're right it is more complicated because CPA funds can't be used for turf. So that's why the, the allocation for CPA is organized the way it is is that it, it's more or less reflective of what the track portion of the project would be, which the track is eligible for CPA funds. And so we, but to your point we would have to have a separate accounting and keep good records of that the CPA funds are for a portion of the project, and not the whole project. And, in a similar fashion as the discussion that happened on the CPA recommendations recently, if we if the town was to invest a significant amount of CPA funds into the region. We would be looking for similar types of deed restrictions or restrict restrictions similar when we purchase recreation recreational land on the track portion of that project. So it would, it would provide some assurance that it would remain a track into the future. Okay, I just suggested, sometimes simple as the best way to go. And, you know, the track's been a need for for quite some time it's been obvious that we have lots of capital needs, and we keep dancing around them. So I'm glad to see that people are really taking this on but you know, and more explicit saving about this is this is the project. And this is how we're going to accomplish it would be welcomed. Thanks. The council is going to have to deal with the question of what we're allowed to do with CPA funds, as will the CPA committee I mean both have to come to a similar conclusion to allow to go forward. But for those who are unfamiliar, there is a provision in the Community Preservation Act has passed by the legislature that was created at a time when there was particular concern about the safety of artificial turf fields of saying that CPA money cannot be used for projects that are artificial turf fields. And that's what we're trying to address this question that we have to decide both how we feel about is a region in this four different towns about having a artificial turf field. And certainly where how we can engineer the use of CPA funds to advance the project and be consistent with the statute. Sean you have anything to add to that then let's to see what Bob has to say and then I would have to draw this to a close. Yeah, the one other thing I'll add quickly just so everyone is aware of what what what else would have to happen. To borrow from CPA. We would have to form some sort of inter municipal agreement with the region. We've spoken, the region in the town have the same bond council that's the legal council that helps structure that authorizations and things like that. And we've had a preliminary conversation with bond council how if this did go forward how it would work. And so, our bond council has drafted these types of agreements for other communities that are part of regional schools between communities and regional school systems. But just so people are aware it would require some sort of special agreement between the town and the, and the regional school district. But that's not unusual because we did that just for the construction project to add to and renovate the high school. So, it's really different. The one back and in the, that might have been before I started at the school so be a while ago. Yeah, but there is precedent that's all. Bob, did you have anything that you wanted to add any questions. Yeah, I just wanted to ask or pose a couple of questions. The first is that I'm a little bit concerned about potential for getting into a budget problem if we have a severe inflation or more inflation in the materials costs, and whether that's built into the budget or not. And then the second question I have and maybe I missed this or maybe I just haven't seen all the documentation. But what what are we how long would the track in the fields last under the various options and what are the annual maintenance costs for each of those because I think we need to be looking at this from a broad perspective of not only how much do we have to grow or somehow raise to get it in the first place but what are the ongoing costs that are already going to be going to be added to an already tight regional school budget. So I can take into consideration that so in the in the project estimates, there is some, some inflationary components factored in, you know, whether or not the recent trend in the last few months is really fully, you know, articulated is it's not likely, but nonetheless that the sort of material and labor costs increases in a project like this over time have been factored in some over just for for cost overruns are part of the projection of the 4.7 so and the one point on those are definitely in there, you know, obviously if, if, if, you know, we stay at 670% inflation is going to be a decisively tougher project to get to and longer wait more specific it's to so it's kind of a you know, rock and hard place circumstance in some respects that way, relative to those costs. So the second point, you know, a few of those things have been kind of teased out and some of the, you know, some of the materials that came with the original master planning document but also in recent Western Samson work that we haven't defined the numbers. The short story is that when you look at sort of the field itself and sort of interior field maintenance, you know, when you consider the, the, the cost of installation, the, you know, your maintenance, because both natural surfaces and and artificial services have the over your maintenance and the difference in playing time. You tend to get a very comparable natural surface versus an artificial surface as far as cost per year per square foot, you know, that type of thing. But really that I think is the huge advantage with an artificial surface is about two and a half to three times the playing time. And, and you have a lot easier time scheduling because you don't have to wait for, you know, to dry out that sort of thing. So I think that that that larger project is it's fairly cost effective. I think the other thing that factors in that's a little more subtle is by moving the location, the efficiency with which we're using the fields goes up. And so the, the number of playing fields and the amount of time and spaces we have are more efficiently used and sort of more effectively used and what we currently have as far as our structure so there's a lot of pluses to to the larger rotation of the track and in that as part and parcel of a project versus keeping it in place the track itself the surface of track, roughly about 20 years. The surface if you go with the, you know, a grass field is every your maintenance and depending on how much you use it we tend to overuse our fields as they currently exist and so you'll always play catch up trying to get them to to a reasonable playing standard, but an artificial surface about a 10 year window is considered a typical life lifespan for those before you need to replace them although once you have one in place, the replacement cost is a little is less it's still expensive when you go to replace an artificial surface, but the infrastructure goes underneath it is is more durable and last long as we will just replacing sort of the surface materials when you need to replacement events or 10 your point. Some of them last longer up to 15 but you know, I think the reasonable estimate for life with span on an artificial surface about 10 years. So then, if I understand correctly, and I am sorry to prolong this but we still be paying off the debt on the artificial field when we have to incur more debt or more cost to replace it. That correct. Not really because you can't borrow for longer than the life of the thing you borrow for so if you, if that looked at the slide deck you'll notice that the payments in the first 10 years are decidedly higher than the. You know, like almost triple the ones in the last 10 years and part of that is because the borrowing for the, the, you know, the artificial surface would be, you know, pro rated over 10 year period, whereas the track would be pro rated over 20. So we have to borrow for links of time that match the life of whatever it is provided. Okay, but, but again the project is going to be more expensive in the long run, then what we're actually putting out now because we're going to have to replace the artificial if we chose to go to the artificial field turf. We'd have to replace that in 10 or 15 years versus just having a field of grass that needs to be maintained. Right.  You know that an artificial service and a national service the amount of rest that's needed the amount of, you know, seating receding, etc, etc. You know those those labor costs are decidedly higher on a year over year basis so in totality, you know, you run into a similar overall price structure over time you just take it big hits at the end of each cycle. And then your year over year costs for an artificial service in yearly maintenance is much much lower. But then you have a spike when you do a replacement. So it's it's sort of differences in when you pay that you end up paying about the same. Okay, thank you. I mean, since Pam's been here all and hasn't asked any questions I just do. Let's see if you have anything that you wanted to ask. Yeah, I was going to, sorry, I was going to ask about the, the change over or the improvements to the field so if the track gets reoriented, whether it whether it gets a turf field or not let's just say it goes, it gets reoriented. So what do we see in the budget, the costs for upgrading the entire remaining field area. In other words, the rest of the grass areas. It occurred to me that in the conversation about the elementary schools that there were costs associated with bringing up playing fields as as part of the cost or not part of the cost but the cost to improving the grass fields as well and where in our outgoing budgets. Do we see those costs accounted for. So I think that there is some in the process of sort of moving track and you know, there'll be some earthwork that will need to be done where the track currently exists. So the idea would be is in the future that that potentially could be the location of a softball field oriented properly to the sun. But that would be a separate capital project if it needed, I mean there'll be some basic amount of work done there so it is a playable space will be fully a softball facility now what will not that would be a separate capital facility at a future time and I think that's, you know, to be determined. I think as far as the year over year maintenance of those grass spaces for use, they would be for for practices, schemes, etc. You know, it's still usable and playable space and will be used for that and so those will be built in our operating budgets to cover those those costs of, you know, water seed, etc, etc. So we do need to move along and conclude the meeting and just to one. So I'm going to do that, but Sean that you have anything else that I just wanted to say a couple really quick points. One, this project does include quite a substantial accessibility improvement to get students and wheelchairs with other accessibility issues down to the field that doesn't currently exist so I just want to point that out. And then to Bob's questions about maintenance I think that's something that we've talked a lot a lot about. And there's two pieces to that one is, if there's fundraising, I think our goal, or a goal should be that there's fundraising for maintenance and that that would be put, put aside into a fund for ongoing maintenance maintenance of the term. The other piece that would be unique is that a turf facility can actually generate revenue through rental. Throughout the year and what we're told is it can generate quite a bit of revenue. And I think another expectation that amour should set is that that revenue is put aside into a into a maintenance fund as well. So that when it does come time to replace the turf, a sizable portion of that can be paid out of that maintenance fund. So that would be as a revolving fund set up for that type of purpose so it would really be just making sure that that expectation is set. Jennifer. I would just, that was a really important point that Sean just made it. You know, we could get that more upfront and center maybe in future conversations that that surface could be revenue generating that I just want to throw that in. Thank you. So when I was to draw this conclusion we agreed that we would encourage additional questions to be submitted in writing that we will try and organize them and get them to Doug and Mike for their consideration. What I'd like to propose is a schedule and I will send an email out to the council tomorrow, probably will not get it done this afternoon because of another event that I need to get to. But if people can get the questions just by Friday that'd be helpful. But I had set a hard deadline of the 19th the day after Patriots Day week from today. And that's the day that I'll try and bundle the questions in an organized fashion, and then probably if Sean is available to help use his help to get them to Doug and Mike. And we will then have as noted previously, public hearing which will not be a discussion is public hearing for that purpose, but hoping we can limit that because the council discussion will be later though. And I think that's ultimately up to Lynn to help organize as to how she wants to organize the time for the council meeting of which this is a part on the 25th, 26th there's going to be a, the final meeting of finance committee and which will come back with other questions. And Doug will be with us for the first part of that meeting to, we're focusing on the questions that are proposed through this process. The finance committee will need to meet to make a recommendation on both capital and on the operating budgets for the regional schools and get so that it can get in a report in time for council consideration and discussion on May 2. So that's the process for going forward with, if there are no questions about that, then the last items this been nobody, no attendees that I'm in the audience so we don't need to do public comment. I just need a couple minutes on the process for the May meetings, anybody's interested in that we should do that. We want to make that really quick but I do want to talk about how the process works and schedule just so that's forbearance to the committee on that. I want to go ahead and adjourn the full council meeting since the rest of this really only pertains to the finance committee. Okay. You're welcome to stay but I just want to make sure you can go because it's been a long morning. Okay. And let's say thank you everyone appreciate your time and I'll have the answer questions you have so we'll see you. Okay, thank you Doug. Thank you Doug. I have to leave. And I would, I don't want to miss the process piece so I can follow up with you, you know, later, if that's needed or if that can happen at the next meeting. Let me just tell you real quickly maybe Lincoln, this will only take this to do this. This is the very first part of it and then you'll be if you duck out I understand. Lincoln you put up that thing that I gave sent to this morning, just real quick. And what it is is a process that's really similar to what we've used in prior years. It involves participation of committee members and so at the next meeting, we will need to make some final decisions while trying to work something out. But we try and get have each of the members of the finance committee. Let's take on some responsibility separate for for each of the items and how we would go forward. So if you look at what we do we have various committee members are assigned to review each department and solicit questions ahead of time. And that doesn't mean that questions shouldn't be thought about from all members of the committee, but it's helpful to have one member of the committee who does take primary responsibility to focus on a particular issue. And we're going to have a very tight schedule which Lynn can also put on the screen, which you may have seen it already but each, what we were thinking of is that we're going to ask the departments to limit their overview. In five to 10 minutes and then that will allow us to then get questions and discussion from other members of the committee and what the additional item, if you have it available is just grid. Which shows where each department is you just had it on the screen for a second one. But that those will make sure that those out to you, so that you can focus on what it is, but I will be looking for people to express interest about. If they have a particular department or second group of departments that they're interested in, because we also look to the people who have taken on that responsibility to help with drafting the report after the meeting is done and then we start moving towards what we're going to report back to the council on these areas. So, any comments or questions about process, seeing no questions. We have no public comment required today because there's no members of the public who are present which then gets us back to the questions. Is anybody had a chance to look at the minutes of March 29 that were in the packet. Any suggestions for amendments changes to the minutes. So anybody want to make a motion to Lynn. Yeah, I move that we accept the minutes for March 29 29 2022. As presented since nobody has proposed any amendments as their second. I will second it so we can move this along. And let's just take a quick vote and then I think we can adjourn. Lynn. Yay. And Bob did you have your okay with the minutes. I'm fine with them. Okay. Okay. Okay. Michelle, I think you had to leave Kathy. Yes. I'm a yes. I just have, I just have one comment. I'm a reluctant. Yes. Because I actually didn't read them. But I, I'm hoping in the future when we do this, would you tell us that you've read them and made any minor changes in them? I'm just, I'm, you know, in the past, I always did a review and almost never had any more than a minor edit, but I just, I feel a little, since there are only three of us, I didn't want to abstain because you wouldn't have had a majority vote on the minutes, but it's just a request for the future. Okay. No, I did look at the minutes and I think they were fine. I think these were written by Athena. And I think that, you know, she is always very straightforward and make sure that all legal aspects of that are required minutes are taken care of. Yeah, my only point is I would like to have known that, know that one person has read them besides the minute taker. So that's, that's it. Just if you can make that statement. For the next time. I'm just. Okay. That's the question I would say that. So I don't think that we have anything else. You know, in the next meeting is, you know, if the process is going forward, I will send something out. So thank you very much. Thank you very much. And I appreciate everybody's for parents. So it was very long, but productive meeting. Bye. Bye.