Okay, hello and welcome to episode 103 of the market maker podcast where as usual I am joined by Piers Curran to talk about some of the main things in markets but more specifically there's been a big headline in regards to slightly dramatized fears for the future of London. London has fallen was my subject line in yesterday's newsletter if you follow that and the reason for that is because Softbank and the world's largest building materials group you might not have heard of them CRH they've shunned the city in favour of New York so we're going to talk a little bit about that more specifically Softbank this week rejected a London listing for Cambridge based chip designer arm despite intense lobbying from three successive UK Prime Ministers that sounds like a long time but actually it really wasn't that's one of those journalistic it's like two weeks yeah two weeks of hard lobbying in your in your mind you're thinking what 15 years they've been lobbying over three Prime Ministers no actually it was probably more like three months but beside that I think this story as much as it's super interesting acts as a good there's also elements to talk about in particular about the history of the London Stock Exchange the LSE why New York right now is seen as more attractive what can London to do to reclaim its kind of former glory so we're going to use the story of CRH an arm to kind of explore some of these key issues but before I begin Piers you were telling the story a few episodes ago about how you got spotted and stopped on a train oh yeah we're back from Birmingham so last night I was teaching a session with the Masters students on the hedge fund strategies module at UCL and I didn't get out of the building until pretty late and got back to London Bridge station so it was about half well 11 p.m. I'd say and night shift had my had my headphones on walking to my train and some guy just grabs my arm stops me hey hey hey and I was like oh here we go I was like this is all I need I just want to go home and he goes are you Anthony and I was like uh maybe who wants to know do I really want to say and uh yeah he said um he was a Loughborough student Loughborough student listens to the podcast yes and had done a finance accelerator and has said that the podcast he had learned so much it helped him land a graduate position at HSBC and investment banking love it I thought oh wow he's just I just wanted to say thank you I thought it was you and then he just went on his way and I was like I didn't even get his name ah he didn't get his name so he probably is listening she should be yeah so if he's listening that was you um please do message me find me on LinkedIn drop me a line um so our pointless ramblings they're not maybe do have some positive effect somewhere who'd have thought all right yeah well look let's jump in and maybe you could start by explaining to me a little bit about the arm story that's probably the one that's a little bit more a little bit more sexy than building materials um can I just say your headline I'm definitely a when it comes to sensationalist headlines as you well know I'm not a big fan oh yeah you loved yesterday then but I would say your headline from yesterday whilst it is sensationalist if anything uh downplays the situation rather than over exit for clickbait um I'm talking about the demise of the uh the kind of London stock exchange and the London investor scene um you know we've talked about this on this podcast then over the over the months in previous episodes but um it's pretty depressing I have to say London's decline and it's pretty epic and spectacular we'll talk about it but like with arm it's yeah it's a yet another chapter in this this what is a long-term trend and I know often people will think about yeah the long-term trend being you know maybe since over the last two decades because we'll talk about why London's decline one of them one of the absolute key factors is technology and the rise of the tech sector and the fact that London just doesn't have any arm being uh used to be or the London used to be the London stock exchanges you know kind of one single poster child uh tech stock but um but unfortunately for London um the decline hasn't just been in the last 20 years the decline that we have been on and I'll talk a bit about the history but we've been on a steady decline in London for 170 years that's how old the decline of the significance of the London stock exchange on the global standing has has been going on for anyway we'll get on to the old the old stuff later but arms you know front page news this week and so arm um obviously it's a big chip maker one of the world's biggest chip makers you'll find their chips all over the place um smartphones and all the rest of it right huge player in the global chip market uh soft bank um snapped up and bought uh arm uh so soft bank the uh that they're kind of chief the very famous Masayoshi son uh that that is a he's a he's a pretty opportunist might be a good one of the ways to describe him so basically what happened in June 2016 Brexit what happened to the pound collapsed what did Masayoshi son do stormed in and bought arm basically took arm private so that means that they buy all their shares so that they're no longer listed on a stock exchange they're no longer a publicly traded company so that you take that company back private okay delisting so arm come out of the footsie 100 you know they're not tradable on the London stock exchange anymore soft bank own all the shares okay so he stepped in and took them private in 2016 taking advantage of the collapse uh in the pound at the time um so that was 2016 right and like with all of these kind of investment firms like soft bank they're looking for you know generating a return over a few years let's say three to five years and then they're looking to flip it and and book their profit right and so soft bank have been trying to sell now for actually for a few years they've had a couple of big obstacles um along the way one being this crazy crazy saga in China so arm China which is there obviously that Chinese arm see what I did there um they had a big issue because their chief the chief of arm China basically wasn't doing a very good job so they fired him except he entirely ignored the firing order and basically took over the company as some kind of renegade CEO and he had basically took control of it um everyone in China was loyal to him and this caused a massive nightmare for months and months and months and months in the end they had to send in literally like a team of heavy security to physically remove this guy from the building um and then wrestle back control of their Chinese entity anyway this was a bit of a saga that rumbled on delaying soft banks exit because obviously you can't you know you can't go to investors and sell the company when oh hang on yeah we don't have control at the moment of one of our subsidiaries so they needed to tidy up that mess right so that got tidied up then they tried to sell it to Nvidia who's the US chip giant okay and the offer on the table um was 40 well it was a stock and cash offer right um and this was in 2020 I think in September 2020 they basically agreed the deal in principle um and the purchase was going to be part Nvidia stock and part cash but um by the time we got round to 2022 the start of 2022 the deal still hadn't been done because the regulators and not it was the US regulators it was the UK regulators it was the EU regulators basically raised serious concerns about how this would create such a dominant global chip making giant um that it would be anti-competitive and so the regulators blocked it by the way by the time they made that decision and the deal was off so that was the start of 2022 about 12 months ago um the valuation or the deal to Softbank went from being worth 40 billion in September 2022 so September 2020 40 billion that was the deal they'd agreed in principle but it was part Nvidia stock but the share price of Nvidia went up so much between September 2020 to to the start of 2022 that that deal value to Softbank went from 40 billion to 66 billion I mean the regulators kibosh did so it didn't happen but um yeah they they they were sat on a great exit Softbank bearing in mind that they bought some they bought arm for I think it was 32 billion in 2016 they almost flipped it for double 66 billion by the time we got to 2022 anyway it didn't happen regulators got involved so ever since that deal fell through so for the last 12 months there's been a bit of a battle going on because um Softbank said okay if we can't sell this to Nvidia fine we're just going to list it and we'll take it back public so we'll do an IPO and we'll list it and the whole thing is where will we list it on what stock exchange in what territory and and obviously the situation when you look at it from a global situation and the Softbank are a Japanese company you know they have no loyalty to the UK this is a bit tricky because ARM is a UK company it's based in Cambridge headquartered in Cambridge that's where it was born that's where its roots are that's where its history is but it's owned by Japanese outfit and so they're like well we have no UK loyalty where's the best place on the planet to list and the best place on the planet from their point of view is the place where they're going to get the highest price you know they're in they're an investor they're in the business of making as much profit as they can and clearly the outstanding winner is is New York and listing it on the New York Stock Exchange and just having a look at the stock exchanges in themselves to give some kind of context to some of the numbers that you are saying about this yeah the decline of Britain yeah so here's a question for you if you're looking at the major stock exchanges in the world by the market cap of the listed companies yeah nicey being the biggest yeah where would you say the LSE stands in that ranking that's a good question what about the Nasdaq that's obviously number two yeah I was going to say in terms of other countries you've got to look at Asia and the Shanghai composite number three okay so here we go the rationale is kicking in think of continents well yeah well I'm thinking well is Japan up there as well from an Asian point of view it's probably not number four but maybe so you're next number four Japan exchange group number five number five right so you're next okay then you're like okay now you're probably thinking London's going to come in um and it's probably vying I'd probably say London next but you're you're probably going to tell me I'm wrong okay Shenzhen next oh okay yeah then Bombay then who's home Bombay stock exchange oh wow right then Hong Kong stock exchange then the Saudi stock exchange no no what is above the London stock exchange well I mean according to data well that's because Saudi Aramco IPO'd right I think if you took Saudi Aramco off that I think I think that's a little bit yeah so LSE ranks outside top 10 number 11 wow okay and one of the headlines that was in circulation yesterday did actually happen last year as well at one point is that um the Paris boss was overtaken actually London and one of those one of the main things there was that um you probably would have heard of a guy called Bernard Arnaud who's the luxury good empire of LVMH and yeah I think he's the richest man on the planet now that Tesla stock has dumped well actually I think they've flipped now back in the money again on his trade but but nonetheless so hang on Tesla sold off nine didn't they sell off nine percent yesterday because oh they had their investor investor day that was just trying to do a Steve Jobs and it really didn't work quite have the charisma of the of the legend so you were talking about Aramco and Saudi and the Paris ones are fairly similar story actually so it's a little bit misleading LVMH LVMH's share price has doubled in the last five years um and that's been predominantly driven by this insatiable appetite coming out Asia really for the demand of luxury goods and that trend is likely to continue you know kind of this short-term COVID situation aside as they become more affluent as consumers they continue to purchase these goods and so on and the market cap of LVMH has got up to around the 350 mark right now as comparison 350 billion euros right yeah so what would you say the market cap of HSBC is 75 billion pounds it's actually 125 okay so it's a bit bigger what about Barclays that's smaller than HSBC so I well if you've said HSBC is 125 I'll say 100 it's 32 oh wow miles off what about Vodafone up there near the top of the footsie yeah that's going to be punchy uh 65 billion 27 okay so if you know the market cap of HSBC BP Glaxo Barclays and Vodafone that's LVMH wow okay yeah so look like yeah okay so if you check so Paris and Saudi are benefiting from an absolute behemoth a single behemoth but it still doesn't hide the fact that being being British that's just embarrassing we're not even in the top 10 I mean I've got a chart you know I've got a chart here I'm looking at it going back to the going back to 1800 okay so I've said the decline's been going on for a while in the 1800s basically between 1800 and 1850 this was during the height of the British Empire right so in terms of you know well so why why what what makes the market cap of a stock index so large and and really it depends on where's the money because the whole point of going public the whole point of taking your company and IPOing and you know issuing shares and listing on the stock market the whole point is to raise capital right the company raising capital to you know investing growth or if you're a soft bank you're raising capital where you're not you're you're kind of selling right you're you're wanting to turn you know sell that company make a profit right but it's about raising capital so where is the money okay it's like show me the money where is it and it's it used to be in Britain right enjoying the industrial revolution the British Empire we absolutely dominated and in the 18 1800 to 1850 if you're taking the total stock market capitalization of the world Britain made up 75 percent wow of the entire world okay that's where the money was then well actually that was pre-industrial revolution right so that it was yeah investing in the railways and all of these kind of kind of trends then the industrial revolution happened and the US started to kind of really start to become a powerhouse okay so some of that shifted to the US so by the time you get to 1900 the UK had about 45 percent of the global market still the absolute dominant player okay what happened then was kind of three things happened in the 20th century that kind of were the nails in the coffin for the UK number one it was World War one and World War two which happened in Europe which meant that stock exchanges got cut shut down it meant that the obviously all the money was going to fuel the war effort there was just a complete lack of capital anywhere and so the default was to just go to the US where you know they weren't as involved in the war of course they were involved but later on the war wasn't on their territory and so the US started to become that that kind of dominant player okay World War one and World War two secondly then post second world war where the US became the dominant player and look by the time you get to 1950 here right both wars are done the US is now making up about yeah about 75 percent it's kind of a complete flip by then the UK looking at about 15 percent okay so it declined from 75 percent of the market share in 1860 to 15 percent by the time you get to 1950 okay that's number one number two nail the rise of Asia okay so this is where you get Japan first and then obviously China following on from that and now you might want to say India as well okay these these big giant centers of that so there's way more capital generation in those regions as those economies evolve and become giants okay and then number three nail in the coffin the UK has just entirely missed the technology revolution and apart from arm I mean if I were to list to you the top 10 companies in the FTSE 100 okay here we go top 10 companies by market cap shell number one AstraZeneca to HSBC Unilever BP Diageo Rio Tinto British American tobacco Glencore any tech in there uh no basically the FTSE 100 is financials it's healthcare it's energy it's mining and it's dull right it's it's just not a particularly exciting dynamic you know in this day and age that they're not kind of exciting growth dynamic businesses at all so and and actually if you look at the stats the proportion of the FTSE 100 that's made up of the sector weighting of technology in the FTSE 100 index is 1.4 percent in the FTSE 350 it's 1.29 percent so it's not just up the top index in the FTSE 100 we got an issue of a lack of tech it's all the way down compare that to the S&P the S&P's tech weighting is 28.1 the Dow Jones industrial average right that's got 21.7% tech and my final stat for you Google, Apple, Amazon, Facebook, Microsoft the big five if you add up those market caps together those five companies are worth more than the entirety of the market worth of all of the stocks listed on the stock London stock exchange that's 1,964 companies are listed on the LSE those five US tech stocks are worth more than all of them I was just looking at okay so what does the UK do to stop the rot and one of the things I was that I am aware of is that people often refer right now as the UK being a fintech centre in terms of world investment which is part of this attempt to pivot I guess on this trend and I was just having a quick look so in terms of the number of companies so the UK is home to around 1600 fintech related firms and that's predicted to double by 2030 according to the government and so despite the obvious the Brexit the shrinking of the economy it is a top destination it's only behind the US so it's bigger than India, Europe, European countries and actually in fintech investment per capita as a percentage of GDP the UK is only second to Singapore right yep so I mean yeah if I was in government and it sounds like they are it's almost like I think they've just consigned themselves to the fact that look we missed the tech thing we missed the tech bubble like just just spectacularly got it wrong and it's almost like let's just write that off what's next and what's next is fintech and it's AI right that's going to be the next big multi-decade secular trend and they are right to be targeting that to try and reinvent ourselves and kind of get London back on the map in terms of a place where businesses can come to find capital and that there's capital here to be deployed and you know in the end right if you're a seller well you want demand you want demand for what you're selling the higher the demand the higher the price you're going to get and obviously if you're trying to sell your business then you want the highest price you can possibly get so where's the demand well obviously it's in the US right and so and actually one measure on that in terms of the valuation differential so we I mean we've talked about ARM right but you mentioned CRH who are in the news this week as well and they're the big building materials company they're worth about 30 billion pounds sterling at the moment and they're listed on the LSE but they're the bulk of their profits are actually generated in the US as a business and they're benefiting from things like Joe Biden's infrastructure investment plan and so on right they're all over that but they're looking to just jump out of the UK and go and list in New York instead and one of the main reasons other than these days as their business has grown multi-nationally more revenue is now generated in the US than anywhere else so you could say that in itself would be a reason to shift focus across to the US but if you check out the valuation gap so basically right now CRH trades at 13 times their price to earnings okay so that's a 13 X PE ratio on the London Stock Exchange if you look at similar companies in the US they're trading on the New York Stock Exchange with evaluation at 25 times PE so basically CRH if they delisted in London and listed in New York would basically double their value overnight so when you put it in those terms it's like well why isn't everyone well why isn't everyone doing it and there are others right and there's smaller companies you might have heard of there's a company called Ferguson this is a big plumbing and heating supplier they used to be called Walsley which maybe is a name you would be familiar with there's a newer company called Flutter which is a big gambling company their FTSE 100 they're pushing aggressively into the US now they're looking for a secondary listing in New York so secondary listing is where you don't delist in London and then relist somewhere else so you basically keep your London listing and then you you have a second one simultaneously in parallel somewhere else Flutter are looking to do that which you would thought is the first step towards them you know fully going New York Stock Exchange and then finally and most worryingly because who's the most valuable company of the whole lot in the FTSE 100 Shell and apparently according to the FT earlier this week Shell's top executives are exploring moving the company to the US so if there's no way that would happen I mean Shell is by far and away the largest company so at the moment okay how do you stop it you stop it by just putting a big bandaid on the problem and you do that by basically this whole tax that they've put this energy like profit surplus tax that came off the back of so the first thing I'd do if I was Rishi yeah I'd be like okay Shell gets some kind of other concession which basically is reducing the fee that they pay to keep their board shareholders happy in the short term to let the this wash over and then whilst so that's the quick fix to stop any irrational decisions that happen at Shell and then you need to start talking about more like regulatory and licensing all these different types of things where we're out of the EU but that takes time that's the problem so you need to like wouldn't it be wouldn't it be a bit of a political own goal though if he's just steps up and says uh right guys you know what you know those like that windfall uh yeah but you know what Shell here you go you can have your money back right so that's when the spin doctor goes to work it definitely is not framed in that way it's done through quite a complicated legally worded yeah way that the normal Joe public just won't even register and yet they'll siphon off billions on the back of it and then that's this is how the world works right in terms of they cannot afford to lose such a powerhouse like that the game's over at that point because what other companies will just jump ship as well I mean some of the other things here the other thing was apart from relisting somewhere else was company takeovers and being taken private yeah well right so there's the extraction out of companies particularly who are the companies that people want to buy high growth ones that have real potential they're the ones that people want to buy so uh viva micro focus um avast which is a cyber security company obviously really boom during the pandemic yeah they all got taken out and these were all potential again semi technology some of them ones that they would have staked a lot of hope on to to pick up some of that gross potential in the exchange that have just gone so as much as it's like a there's two leaks here yeah that needs plugging at this point and the things I read that I know you you mentioned before about Jeremy Hunt and some plans so they've looked at changing listing rules we've just said it already though the regulatory change happens at a snail pace I think that's probably largely a problem for a lot of these deal making like you said you wait like softbank 18 months later then the share price can move deal structure can change and yeah things can look very different so yeah the listing rules in the UK they've talked about differences for dual class shares SPACs making that more accessible reducing free floats things like that um but I guess ultimately the over regulation side of things is is ultimately key I mean one of the things I saw as a stat was companies listing in London has dropped 40 percent since the global financial crisis in between 2015 and 2020 in terms of the world IPOs every every IPO that happened in the world in the five-year period from 2015 to 2020 the UK attracted five percent yeah it's just as I said it's embarrassing I mean also stuff like you you gave me a stat which I was blown away by the trading volumes on the FTSE 100 so it's still the same 100 companies that you can trade right but if you go back the kind of average daily volume um in 2007 was it you that gave me this stat did I find it somewhere else the average trading volume in 2007 was like 14 I think it was um I lost I've lost the stat now I think it was like 14 million a day okay whereas the average trading volume now is four million uh yeah the daily average volumes have dropped like yeah sort of it's what yeah they dropped like 70 percent so the average daily trading volume on the FTSE all shares index is the equivalent um to about four billion pounds in February this year compared with nearly 14 billion in the same period in 2007 right it's a pre-GFC there's just yeah I mean the money's just not there um so yeah we've got a massive issue and I think one look you need all of these things to happen simultaneously you need big regulatory overhaul like brave you know big change but of course that comes with risk so there'll be massive pushback against that you know the global financial crisis it was only 15 years ago right so a lot of this regulation was put in place to avoid that ever happening again well here we are 15 years later and you know the clear side effects of that are now for all to see so how much of that regulation do you roll back in order to reverse that trend but then you know opening the door for more crises in the future perhaps so you've got a bit of a double-edged sword there but definitely the long long long-term play to try and be a much bigger global player in the next big you know multi-decade you know secular trend of AI and then kind of fintech specifically because the financial financial sector has always been the biggest sector in the UK well I say always for the last whatever 50 years right and so you know marrying together technology and the financial sector you know makes sense for the UK so we can get that right I think that's that would be if that strategy can be deployed effectively I think that's the only way back regulatory changes sure that can help along the way but in the end you just need money though that's why you need capital and that I don't see how we're ever going to compete with the likes of the US I mean ever given the size it's just so spectacularly bigger remember we can get back into the top 10 and the rate of change happening obviously even faster outside of US and China yeah and subsequently will be in the decades to come in both India and probably Africa and come oh yeah Nigeria Nigeria for sure yeah they're coming Indonesia yeah the other area apart from you know fintech blockchain these types of things regulatory framework changes was a research paper I read I would say I read I pick up a Cambridge research paper from the PhD students and I'm like 250 pages I know exact man for the job chat GPT you just summarise that 200 page doc into chat chat GPT translated into layman's terms please and 200 words and on the other side it also talked about becoming a sustainable place for ESG investing socially responsible investing essentially could be an avenue to pursue alongside the fintech approach and be known for that yeah in those areas because I guess when it comes to the socially responsible side of things I'm just thinking off the top of my head but when you talk about China India Nigeria yeah hard I think for them in their governance alarm bells right so what you need is the opposite you need political well I was going to say political stability that would be incorrect to say for the UK but relatively you've probably could still claim that obviously infrastructure you know all these different things regulatory oversight right so I think this could be also a good direction okay so the the future's bright is what you're saying it's just the present is an absolute hell zone but the future looks good let's see yes okay I mean I'm half Chinese so I'm I'm I'm covered all right good stuff we'll end it there so thanks very much peers and everyone for listening we'll be back again same time next week so enjoy your weekend or whenever you listen to this episode and take care yeah have a good weekend


Aloha Marine Corps Base Hawaii, I'm Lance Corporal Stacey here again to share with you this month's Hawaii Marine. Let's take a look and see what happened in this month of September. To start off, U.S. Marines participated in the Marine Wing Communication Squadron Bravo Company Activation Ceremony. The Bravo Company Marine Wing Communication Squadron is charged with planning, installing, securing, and operating a communications architecture in order to enable command and control to a Fleet Marine Force air combat element. MWCS-18 has a personnel count of 151 and will increase up to 216 in the next calendar year, doubling the lethality of aviation support within the first island chain. Welcome aboard MWCS-18. Next, Marine Corps Base Hawaii hosted a Change Command Ceremony for U.S. Marine Corps Forces Specific. Lieutenant General Stephen Rudder relinquished command of Marfor Pack to Lieutenant General William Journey. Marfor Pack is the largest field command in the U.S. Department of Defense and commands all U.S. Marine Corps forces assigned to the Indo-Pacific Command. General David Berger, Commandant of the Marine Corps, attended the ceremony and supported Marfor Pack and its commanders. Fair winds and following seas Lieutenant General Rudder and welcome aboard Lieutenant General Journey. Next up, leaders from Marine Corps Base Hawaii and professional staff members visited and conducted a tour of MSVH. The purpose of the visit was to discuss how the Navy and Marine Corps are training for future conflict and complex environments. It also allowed the opportunity for a broader perspective on operations and contributions to national defense. As a reminder, every September is Suicide Prevention Awareness Month. Now is the time to raise awareness of the stigmatized and often taboo topic. We use this month to shift public perception, spread hope and share vital information to people affected by suicide. The goal of this month, as it should be for every month, is to ensure that individuals, friends and families have access to the resources needed to discuss suicide prevention and to seek help. For more information, please contact or visit our Marine and Family Community Counseling Program Office. Also, this year marked the 21st anniversary of the September 11th attacks. U.S. Marines and Sailors for Third Marine Division conducted an 11-kilometer memorial hike on Marine Corps Base Hawaii in honor of those who lost their lives during the 9-11 attacks. Next, MSVH hosted the Advanced Rider Track Day on the Marine Corps Air Station flight line. Mr. Dylan Cody, Lead Riding Instructor, has more information to share. The main focus of the track day is essentially to give the rider some alone time with their motorcycle. We've created a little road course out here where there is no traffic, there's nothing else to worry about, and we put the rider's attention on technique so that they can really, really closely look at what they're doing to the motorcycle and what exactly that results in. Thanks, sir. Most recently, U.S. Marines and Sailors with Marine Medium Tiltrotor Squadron 268 were welcome home by family and friends after conducting a six-day Trans-Pacific flight. The Trans-Pac retrograde concluded a six-month deployment in support of Marine Rotational Force Darwin. Welcome home, Marines and Sailors. That concludes this month's edition of the Hawaii Marine. We hope to see you again next month. Stay classy and mahalo.


So, thank you. Good morning, everybody. This is our case study. The group is composed by myself, Elena, Ali, Raymond, Cyril, Betuel, Americo, and Abdel Tata. It's difficult. We decided to use a case study in a hospital in a developing country. And why we decided to do this? Because the hospital is an indoor environment that should be as clean as possible because there could be immunocompromised patients. So the hypothesis that we wanted to test is where? Is the hospital a source of exposure of pollutants? And to compare the two cases, two sites, one rural and one urban, to see, to check if the same facility in the same country but in different areas can actually determine a difference in the exposure. Someone else wants to speak? So the objectives were to measure different types of pollutants, whether indoor or outdoor, the hospital that is, as Maurizio said, we're going to have two hospitals, one in rural and one in urban. The pollutants would be PR, heavy metals, volatile organic compounds, and other gases concentration, and as well, microbiological contaminants. I wonder why. So there will be also chemical analysis of the water contaminants. The population would be the hospital workers and the patients. And the patients would be classified into three categories. The categories that are patients staying in the hospital for one to three days or from three days to one week or more than one week. And we selected the population to be patients aged more than 30. Split me in. So the analytical techniques to measure the contamination, first of all, active sampling, and then classical chemical characterization for the endpoints. So we will thought about putting in representative points a sampler, that sample particles, PN10, PN2.5, so we will have the filters to make the characterization. We will take a sample of water once in a day to make the characterization of metals and of bacteria in water. It should be sanitized, but better to check. And then we will make scrub from the, swabbing from the surface to check if the surface of the hospital can add bacteria or release other contaminants. We also thought to recover outdoor data from the local, if it's available, our quality network to check if indoor air is however better than outdoor. And of course the patient's data from the hospital record and again the data of water quality from local authority. For the health outcomes or health assessments of health impact, we have to take the data of the frequency of infections due to indoor pollutants, which means nosocomial respiratory infections acquired in the hospital during their patient's stay. The frequency of respiratory symptoms and the frequency of onset of allergy symptoms, the expected results, we're going to see the differences in the exposure level and health outcomes between the rural and the urban environment. And the indoor aerosol concentration may be important, more important than the outdoor ones. And the compounds of indoor aerosols are more complex. Recommendations? Yeah, if the results were going to be positive, the recommendation we thought where if outdoor pollution is affecting indoor, check ventilation and climatization. I mean ventilation and climatization should provide clean air to the hospital. If this is not the case, please check it. If urban hospital is more polluted than rural, review the hospital guidelines. Maybe hygiene ventilation is different, maybe being in a really crowded urban area. It's more likely that the windows are always open, that the doors for entering the hospital are always open, so there is a huge exchange of pollution. Or maybe the rules within the hospital are not so strict as they should be. And if hospital contaminates outside, we also thought maybe from some specific gases there is leakage, so it's important to check if you have also a sort of side effects. It means the hospital is contaminating outside just to check leaks and isolation of the hospital. And that's it. So comments from the audience? I have several. But first of all, thank you very much because in a very short time the protocol is really good. One, there is some concern about the outcomes because you should be in this in a studio like that. You have to be sure that the infections or the other respiratory defects are because of the indoor pollution. So if you decided to have an hospital based hospital, the good idea is to choose a word which is not connected with the respiratory problems. So maybe trauma or other centers, because maybe people with respiratory disease are in the hospital. Or if you cannot do that, a very good questionnaire in order to assess the health status of the patients at the beginning of the stay in the hospital. Because we want to say that this is, I have to say, worsening because of the indoor air quality. That's a long, I mean just... Probably the variable would be the time of stay. So if the patient had the onset of the symptom in a couple of hours, it's really not from the hospital. And the nature of the germ he acquired and its level of resistance to antibiotic is a very good indicator as well, if it is a hospital acquired, the infection or not. It's everything that can be judged against the severity of the disease at the beginning of the entering. The idea is that from acquiring the data from the hospital, if the patients start to have respiratory symptoms, being already in the hospital, so... It can be related to the reason of the why they are in the hospital. So thank you. We have no extra time. Oh, maybe one? Okay, short. Good morning. And it was really nice. But every time I give the example from India that maybe not good for me or my country, but that is important to know for all. My university has a medical college and hospital as well. And many a times, many a times we start vomiting on the street outdoor from, say, smell of a dead body rotting inside. So you can estimate the level of indoor pollution about the infection. So how to separate this kind of, say, pollution and with, say, general environment, indoor environment? Yes. We forgot to say one thing about our sampling protocol. We thought to sample for one week at least. So to divide weekdays and weekend days, because during weekend days we expect to have more visitors. So we can also check if the presence of a lot of persons actually bring the clouds, their clouds, into the hospital. So a more relevant outdoor pollution due to visits, not to the... So sorry, we forgot it. Be much different because, sorry, one second. Because in our case the weekends are closed, the hospitals are closed in weekend.  As Karla was saying, as Karla was saying, if the patient is hospitalized for an abdominal surgery, for example, and after three days he shows symptoms of respiratory disease, then this is definitely acquired in the hospital and not from the outside. Yeah. Where to go? Where to go? Thank you. Before the other group, but if there is room for two, I should have left it there. Okay, and... You have the memory stick? No, there is none. Okay, so... Look at the sample. So let's put the gold that they speak at once. Just need someone here for the camera and just for the mic. Someone here or someone else? Right, we just... Could you tell them which one? Where they come? Someone can recognize the fight? The fight today? Yeah, so the fight, yeah, exactly. This one? Is this one of these ones, as I know? Just a small pose for technical reasons. This one was in the fight five minutes ago. This one was in the fight five minutes ago. Okay, are you ready? Are you ready? Okay, the presentation is finished. Next time. Okay, we're going to try to find it again. So... So, this time... Okay, this one? This one? This one? Yes, this one. Okay, fantastic. Sorry. We are sorry for lateing. I'm sorry. Our case study will be at Brangman School in Cairo, which is Miga City, with high-population numbers. We will try to assess the health risk of indoor population. Ali Zainab, Mustafa Diaz, Gamil Mariam, Muhammad Al-Sa'a. Okay, it's a pass. As indoor quality has gained greater attention in recent years, which is concerning to human health. As we spent most of our daily time in indoor, in home, in hospital, in school, in work, etc. So, indoor quality affecting the human health. Also, it is affecting by outdoor air, including the stairs, interway, soil, and root dust, and entering the indoor environment, which contaminates the outdoor air pollutants and the falls, the major source of indoor air pollution. In the same case, it is important to consider indoor air quality inside a school, where children with different ages and spend most of their time in a school, which is a long period, I think. It started from mid-September. This is the case. We specified this date because in September, in Uttam, in Cairo, we have an event of burning rice ash, which is increasing the anthropogenic activities by burning rice ash. And up to June of the next year, to put a possibility to compare the extreme events of air pollution in that area. Location, it is a high-traffic nuclear area in Cairo. The subject is or the target will be the student with age from 7 to 12 years. The type of study we stated before, reasons because it affects the student with different ages and it is easier to count the number of students in a school. It's easy. Yeah, maybe. In Cairo only. Okay. The number of students that will be easy to find the exposure assessment. As there are various sources of air pollution, wallpins, dust from the ground, smoke from vehicles, laboratories, libraries, consumables of food and water, which may affect by outdoor pollution and transferring to indoor pollution. Teacher smoking is available, I think, tools of teaching. The student also smoke. It's a case in Cairo.  As a one. As a one. Yeah, yeah, in Cairo. Yeah. As a one. The student is asking for clear, clean environment. Hypothesis. The hypothesis of this presentation, of this study, is to study the indoor pollution is to find if the indoor pollution, air pollution, is adversely affected with human health or no. The general objective of this study is assessing the environmental health risk related to the indoor air pollution and learning the ability through the IQ test. We can start by taking sampling from each class monitoring of air quality inside the school. These types of expected pollutants BMI 2.5, CO, O3, NOx, SO2, Volatile Organic Component Evaluation. We will statistical analysis for this pollutants with the period per day. Evaluation of temperature variability and concentration. Estimation of the health impact of the evaluated pollutants using the concentration response function in three shapes recommended by WHO. Three shapes log linear log linear. This to estimate the morbidity maybe because due to exposure for this pollutants but my colleague can evaluate this experimentally by taking some blood analysis of the bio as you see testing of learning ability and IQ test. This is our expected result that the high level of the pollution will have a correlation in increasing the number of cases of respiratory and cardio diseases and also infectious diseases and we assume that the food and the drink also contaminated by the pollutant that it will be consumed by the student while they are in the school. So we also trying that the expected result that beside the health impact to the student it also will impact the learning ability of the student in that school. So what is the controlling option we offer maybe? Control the pollution should be filter for the water and air limiting the hours of the school increasing green space around the building of the school and the student should put mask during the dust storms and make general alarm system in Egypt for high pollution. Nice presentation. You set out by saying that exposure to air pollution impacts academic performance. Even though not directly, I think you mentioned that even the last speaker also said that how are you going to measure the impact of the air pollution on academic performance? We can do it by IQ test and learning test, periodical learning test and IQ test so that we can change because of the pollution. Just briefly on that point there is a study that was done all over Europe nearly and they used the two parameters that are the school grades of the students and the days of absence from school that might be due to respiratory symptoms or disease or onset of allergy and asthma. Any other? I have one for your conclusion. Remove, please, limit the number of hours in school and put masks because the only remediation should be put a label is forbidden to smoke, especially the teacher because it is an example for the students and the second one the area. Yes. Don't let any message say as is dirty, let children stay less in that area because they have to go to school, they have to stay in a nice and safe environment. So clean the school and don't smoke when at school, especially the adults. I mean teachers and parents if they go to, you know... Smoking is not allowed inside schools in the school but limited areas. It's forbidden to smoke inside schools in Egypt or I think in any way my country make mitigations control for revolution. I think revolution is a global problem. We increase green space around schools, make shelters to protect schools from any dust storms or pollutants from around. Also lately we open to renewable energy stations, solar energy in South Egypt and also another one when the power station in Red Sea to increase renewable energy, which maybe reduces the you know that Cairo one of the world megacities and populated maybe by 10 to 20 million people. So it is a big problem to solve a problem as a pollution of it. Okay. Thank you very much. Thank you so much. Instead of my short presentation at the beginning of the conference we can do with another group. Yes. Okay. Let's finish with the group. The lady group. This is the next one. This one. Yes. This is yours. Yeah, very nice. Good morning everyone. We will present our presentation. We were thinking to study also a case study about inside school what's happening there. We form small but modest group of girls. I am Katalina Merculet. Here is Zornica and Alia and Afra. We will go further. I will introduce you in our consideration. We consider the indoor condition of some primary school could be a generally primary school for example in Eastern Europe like Romania, Bulgaria or maybe their country. We are looking at some risk factor some sources could affect the health of children. We will think much of our children could be there some risk situation because the children they bread more air comparison with adults. They could often bread with mouth because of the effort. They are running and moving a lot. So in this way they are not allowed to the respiratory system to act and to prevent the role of some disease, some flu or some other causes. They are situated closer to the floor and they are prone to some risk factor so many dangers are accumulated there. We put here the hypothesis we think about what could be there and we also know some cases in our country for example the water pipes for drinking water it's made from lead so it will be a risk factor also. Some low respiratory infection come up here at some students coming into classes instead of they are ill. So the people taking care of school they use chlorine substance also in the water in general drinking water system in the city or they use such substance chlorine for cleaning the floor or the people could come around with the shoes dirty by dust and pollen also. We were thinking could be some mold on the walls doesn't take care much on the walls during the year or we consider fire resistant substance used on the chair and to the desk and we also were thinking about dust from the cartons so this is our hypothesis. So we concluded to choose some of these and we are stopping at these three main sources. I will invite my colleagues to continue. These six hypothesis we classify just three sources as can say top priority related to this point. From these six hypothesis we just take three for example more high risk sources. Mainly the first one they let come from the water by drinking because we are known that let is very toxic and also have accumulation factors in the plot the children may be affected by the sooner or late. The other thing is low respiratory inspections because we know that the dispersion of diseases among children has become very soon especially in summer and in winter. Also the third more risk sources is the chlorine has been used in the surface even the disc or in the floor also chlorine is mainly used as disinfectant agent in water but if it exceeds certainly the effect will be oppositely in the other way. So the solution may be what could be done the control options for let from drinking water pipes is to use filtered water you can let's say parents can collect money for the children to subside the school with mineral water so they can use this water instead of drinking water from the pipes or if there is such a problem all the pipes could be changed with PVC pipes or filtered water also for the respiratory infections for example in Bulgaria at the kindergarten I call this face control like a nurse stays at the door and don't allow children to come if they have some visible symptoms of flu or other diseases thus preventing children to get sick and this doesn't exist that much in school so this is something that could be done also during the epidemic periods you can use masks and very efficient meeting in Bulgaria so to stop the school for let's say one week or more usually one week works so the epidemic is stopping at the school provide of course the hygienic conditions and vaccinations also during the period of epidemics for Bulgaria in particular this is the very lowest percentage of people who are vaccinating but it could be done with some programs for the school children because they are much more in contact and in risk than other for high substances for service and floor cleaning we can change the chemicals with using for cleaning before proceeding the comments I am thankful to ICTV for having me following are the comments upgrading the health conditions of children in the school propose it to the municipality to change the network of water pipes and propose to have control at the entrance of school in order to prevent epidemics and to use natural cleaning materials at the school and it's the end thank you very much so is there any question for Sinti well okay sorry thank you for the presentation I saw somewhere you talked about epidemic is it epidemic or epidemic health or episodic I didn't understand well outbreaks I have my question then so you are talking about the control to use natural products for the cleaning and so how do we know natural is better and is it really a control how do you know that using natural substances to clean is better I think we need study like the one you proposed because it's useful to provide the decisions to data quantification of the impact how many children how they are and what is it related or not to the indoor exposure because you know having clean water is a right and maybe if they found that the level in the pipes can affect the quality of the water that's really a serious problem in public health so a quantification of the impact we need study like that in the future I will be always available if you want to discuss with me some protocols or something maybe quick cross sectional analysis with cheap with few resources and this for all of you so please stay in touch okay thank you we switch to your presentation Anna Carla sorry someone during the week ask me about the experience I mean how actually researcher can do or not in this field and I'm going to talk about an area that we have in Lazio Lazio is the region surrounding Rome I'm from Rome what happened and what we did to measure the exposure and the health status of people living in that area now we know it's a complex issue a lot of aspects have to take into account and this is the area you can see Italy and now we are here in Trieste the red is Rome and the blue is Civitavecchia it's a coastal area so we have a few of industrial play farms because we have thermoelectric plants very very big one once they use oil now they use coal then we have the coastal deposits for the oils then we have an arbor and we talk briefly about the problem of ships emissions in affecting the quality of air and this is a coastal area but we have mountains over here so people in the mountains mainly use mass combustion during winter for civil eating and because of the arbor the arbor is now used mainly for cruise you know when you say a beautiful cruise in the Mediterranean area they stop for two days in Civitavecchia because they want to bring tourists to see the pope in Rome or the Colosseum so this very big ships 4000 people in each stay in the arbor and those ships have to provide electricity to the people living there 4000 people so there are really little industrial point that stay in that area so the quality of air is affected and we can tell that because we did a lot of epidemiological studies and all the studies show a relation without say nothing about the exposure we simply found high mortality and morbidity risk for lung cancer, methotelioma and respiratory disease so we say maybe something is in the air maybe something in the air affect the health status of people both working occupational exposure of course in this industry the arbor people work every day but also in the general population including children so we publish some paper everybody knows but data about individual exposure to pollutants from the disaffirmed sources at that moment were not available so we said what we can do can we start a program in order to have dispersion modeling or we can use human biomonitoring the pros and the cons of the two approaches we have discussed in the previous day of this course human biomonitoring provide the through is the gold standard because if you find the tracer into the urine or the blood or other fluids of the body and this contaminates is exogenous is not biological product but the human body you can tell that something from external courses enter into the body and we saw can be through the food chain through the water through the air but also we can use the dispersion modeling techniques in the dispersion modeling techniques you don't have to ask people you don't have to measure people is something that people from the exposure side can do you need the skill the technology the software and the data the emission data the knowledge about weather condition and orography or the area but in comparison they are really much more cheaper so maybe suitable in place where you don't have such a lot found for research so we did the two because we ask as I told you I work in a public health department so it wasn't us it wasn't me but we ask it in our network colleagues coming from the environmental agency to do the dispersion model we had discussed a lot about that what you need are the emissions the orography and the weather condition in that area remember we are talking about sea but then the mountains so the air starting from the plants goes through the mountains and go back in a way the other thing that maybe we haven't discussed which is the proper tracer because we know that from an industry plant or from a combustion Michelinus of pollutants are going into the air as it's quite impossible to follow each of them in a dispersion model so we decided to use particular matter for combustion coming both for industry harbour and biomass burning which is reasonable we know that there are other contaminants affecting the air but to have a map we decided to use particular matter PN10 and then we use NOx, NO2 particularly for the traffic and because in that area it's an urban area so we have vehicular traffic coming from cars trucks, pullmen, whatever and the model that you use what is Lagrangian models called spray because spray can follow the path of the particles but can take into account also the chemical reactions that the particles have in the atmosphere so at the end as you now know the dispersion model provides you a concentration so an amount that you can measure in microlambar could be meter in points in the area and as I told you a few days ago our the proxy for the individual exposure was the individual address where you live in the area and those are the results of the dispersion modeling the first one comes from the coal power plant it's a very high chimney 200 meters high so I can tell that maybe where in Rome is influenced by that plant so the people are very very concerned about the coal power plant because they see every day the tower and they see the smoke but I don't know if you can read or not I invite you to read the value we are talking about 0.000 something and so the contribution of the emissions coming from the coal power plants are really low we can say they are low under the the limit that the legislatures say they have proper filter systems so because we have to take into account the perception of people the environmental worries that they are suffering from so we have and anyhow we have described the impact by the maps and oh sorry I don't want to rush the harbour more local value maybe a little bit much higher but extremely local comparing to to go back this is the chimney the very high one the dispersion modelling here we have concentration mainly in the zone very close to the harbour because the chimney coming from a ship is I don't know 10 metres maybe even less and this is the related dispersion modelling then civil heating, biomass burning is mainly in the cities about 5 municipalities very close one each other and mainly coming from the area in the mountain here look at the value 10 plus something so the contribution of PM coming from biomass is much more higher that one comes from industry and finally urban traffic a new exhibition they are following the main street that we have in the area of course talking about carts and look again at the value but all these pollutants are going in the air affecting the quality of air and probably that we know and affecting the health status of residents then we perform ok this was done now let's do the biomonitor study so how to sample who is going to be biomonitored by us sample can be representative of the general population this is the very crucial point the selection of the sample the prefaces because if you are wrong in the selection if you may maybe ask people only here maybe when you put the dispersion modelling results up to a map with the JIS method you cannot find anything something very bad going in that area but as you fail to select your sample you are not going to see results if they are or you are going to see results that are not false because they are not represented from the population so what we did is ok let's say that everybody in the area are at risk to be sampled so we ask the municipality please provide us your file with all the addresses of the people a certain point remember that biomonitoring reflect recent exposure so let's say 6 months one year so please measure of my city give me the data of the residents they are anonymous just an address so we don't need any private information and we put all the address in the map and as you can imagine where the cities are the dots are more crowded and here we have rural area a lot of rural or empty spaces so we had at the beginning 17,000 more people aged just adults because for some problems it's not good to ask children to provide blood better to avoid them it's really extremely necessary so we ask adults our period was a couple of three years ago and so we sample just by chance randomly selected randomization guarantees the representatives because we have no a prioriary approaches we put the data in the software and we ask another software please select as 2000 people and that's what we said and we start the biomonitoring following a very strict protocol of inclusion they were very well informed at the beginning for the objective of the study they have to sign the letter I want to be in the study or not someone refused and we just asked for some blood and we also start to build a biobank because it's all if you have money in the future if you have money please do the biomonitoring study but also please put some frozen specimen in the fridge because you never know maybe in a few years you can still say something about the population maybe new technique are coming maybe have the samples the frozen samples so those are the result of our people we started from 2000 but at the end we just had half 1,141 availability of people 600 of them refused they refused for several reasons and we ask them because it was a telephone why they refuse because it's important also to go on with people in the study but also say describe why they are not for people who are not going to participate because what if people not attending our study are really residents in area where the concentration is very high we are missing part of the exposure people so we cannot do anything towards them but at least it's good to describe and we were lucky because there were not differences in exposure between people in the sample and people outside the sample not different between sex same percentage male females in the people sample and the people that refused same percentage of age distribution it was by chance because you cannot say anything the refusal they have the right not to be in the study now we are lucky so we collect blood urine, nails and hair because our biomarkers were mainly metals how to decide what I'm going to measure in biomanitoral study you have to choose elements related to the exposure otherwise there is no sense and how you can say that the elements are related to the exposure by the literature by studying the the topic so we collect more than 15 less than 20 heavy metals also we collect some benzene metabolic cotinine because of the smoke because sometimes they say I don't smoke anymore but you find very high level of cotinine in their urine and also page we also measure that I'm almost finished about the metals but for example cadmium lead and nickel their toxicity is well known we know that they can damage they are related to coal combustion to smoking, to combustion in general and why we can say that because there are a lot of studies maybe in USA or in Europe that we use to say that those are results the other thing that you have to do when you perform your biomonitoral study is to compare in the first line I'm sorry is in Italy maybe Latin name more or less is similar to English but let's say the second row arsenic because we have also that is also a volcanic area so probably arsenic is in the water that they drink because of the natural situation they have filtered in the water distribution system but still some higher level of arsenic has be proved but also arsenic come from combustion and we found for example in the second row a level of microgram by gram creatinine in the urine of people how much is it 20 it's a lot no it's a reasonable value so we first we compare our results with other situation in Italy there are not a lot of biomonitoring studies so what you have you use and we have Turin which is an industrial city in the north of Italy where the major fiat the major car industry that we have in Italy is located and also incinerator and also traffic and also other and a general mean coming from all other a mean of biomonitoring study so we say we are observing almost 20 in small cities but a very big industrial city in Italy has 16 so less so maybe something is going up here because our industry is not so big as the industry in Turin and then this is our results those are local comparison with Italian standard then we went to the NENES which is a very big survey conducted in America I don't know how many people of person are in and they found in this USA survey a medium level of arsenic of 8 so we have double the dimension so double it means something so we when you have the results find a comparison I didn't care that the comparison comes from America that was the biggest that is published in literature so we can say that in Civitavecchia in our our population for example are suffering very high level of arsenic then this is the now I'm sorry this is my field but I don't have time to explain how it was possible to say that but we simply compare through a regression analysis the concentrations at individual level just to explain now for each individual we have their own biomonitor level let's say of arsenic because we are measured so we know Karla has his own level then we have the Karla's address the level of contamination coming from dispersion modelings the related we have four column for values one from the industry the thermoelectric plant one from the arbor one from pollutants coming for traffic and one for pollutant coming from civility so for each person we have five value the biomonitoring and for concentration coming from the dispersion model so simply put it in the relation we found something now it's complicated to explain the graph so I put it in in words we found some relationship significantly significantly emission between coal combustion and some heavy metals that a priori we know has been already associated with that exposure and same for traffic for coming both from Rome and from ships and in for these not for only but for these elements we found that dispersion modeling are good enough to estimate the concentration so why performing costly biomonitoring study if you can have the dispersion modeling we are going to publish this so can be you know something that can be used as reference in future in future work but sometimes if you don't have this is one that there are few experience like that but this one of the study that says that maybe can be valuable use dispersion model instead of biomonitoring that's it answer question if any now or at the coffee level thank you very much Carla for your presentation I want to find out those who participated did I mean did they get compensation like money like because sometimes this one also is okay we off I mean I had some experience in several surveys sometimes we use a small ticket that you can use to go to a supermarket and buy something but in this case we offer the full bloody evaluation test results so they can have you know the clean the clinical so you have you know cholesterol triglyceride that everything so we are you we don't have them the screening and they were very happy because we are under crisis and it was a good day for free is very difficult thank you Carla for the presentation I have just one question you say that you related those medals to the mission from the coal power plant for from literature studies therefore you don't have the fingerprint of that specific power plant so you don't know exactly if tell you for example the rise really from the power plant because you have I don't know maybe sample the really the real is that we have all the the chimney the the environmental agency checked for some of the components the one that have to be they are under regulation so because they have to stay in below the limits we have all the all this so is not for sure but for the main we can say yes because they are also emitted the and we have the value because we have the authorized value I mean in Italy if you want to create your own industry you have to provide data about the emissions at least the authorized I mean you say you are not going to emit more than thought Thank you for presentation but yes I have just question you mentioned that you are using coal power plant for this generation and also you have a cement plant and the simulation that result about the particulate metal concentration it less than recommended level this boy in all three something and boy in all one seven and in the last slide you mentioned that you have very to some extent a very high concentration of toxic element so in this case how I can believe on the modeling here first you also you said you have a low concentration of particulate metal but at the end you mentioned that we have very toxic element deposited that's they okay so people don't know exactly I mean I was the I'm not leaving that area and that was the sample sample number one because I say let's test on me and I found on myself very high concentrations of some metals and I'm not leaving in an industrial area so my opinion is the traffic coming from cars because I live in the center of Rome is probably the most important killer here also considering the concentration level at that moment that we control for everything here for having had I don't know a barbecue the day before because we had a lot of questionnaires to guarantee that about the food have you had because we have mercury and arsenic have you eaten fish for in the last in the few days before the collection of urine so people they don't know exactly the I mean we let them know but there is no appeal against the level of arsenic in your body so it's an issue what what what and we don't know about the individual toxicity what will be me I have I know that I have a lot of precious metals such as gold you can sell me in the market coming from the catalytic marmite help me Maurizio the okay the from the emission of the carts and but I don't know how to cope with that I simply have and it's not the level of lead or other very serious high to toxic toxic materials they have in their blood so we say them has you have those results please go frequently to your physician and check your health status and try to have an eldest style of life that's what because there is not appeal against this they some of them are in the fat tissue so you are not going to excrete them very easily so go to the check your state so they are healthy individual because they are aged 35 to 60 so adults and check your health status I mean free with as much as you can okay thank you Carla I have two questions the first one maybe I miss your presentation is it necessary in your case also maybe in my case we should take the control of the respondent outside of the industrial in your case in that side should we take outside of the the control I mean so you have you can compare between the contaminated industrial and non contaminated area is it necessary for us to take some control sample in this okay is it important and you want to assess an effect now it is just for exposure but the objective of this study was to decide whether to use bio monitoring or dispersion modeling so I'm not really interested in the result of the dispersion modeling or in the results of the bio monitor so I don't really care what I would like to know in my hypothesis was to detect at the residential address of each participant of the study if the concentration estimation from the dispersion models and the question is if I have high level of arsenic which is for me the tracer industry and also the concentration estimated from the industry by the dispersion model are high and high I can say okay I can use but if they go in the opposite direction something is wrong so then who we have to choose and the gold standard is the bio monitor maybe the dispersion model is not good for that so in this case it's not a comparison it's not exposed or not exposed it's just at the residential address if they go both go to the same direction up or down or in the opposite direction I hope I haven't spread I can maybe say a little bit later Thank you Carla for presentation I have three questions the first one is about the samples did you collect samples once or many times in science during the project you mean for the bio monitoring not just once it's extremely you need a lot of money because the measurements 20 metals plus the metabolites of benzene and the pH was it cost around maybe three or four hundred for each subject we have 2000 so now it was a problem but if you found money I would like to repeat because it was spot just once in this case I did samples three times I think but how many people you had 15 15 I had 1100 just a remark have you paid anything for those people have you paid anything for those people I paid what I mean not me the local authorities decided to put money on this because the arbor was really a crucial aspect in their environment this was my second question how did you do for convinced the authority to collaborate with you it was a governmental program or just a search project no it was very difficult they don't want to put money but for some reason they had some extra money when you close your budget plan and you find that you have still some money to invest in something and you decide that maybe but we asked for as we have been asked after a few years now we can probably do something because we have found money just public money no industry money never performed studies okay you can do that if you don't have any other but it's better to find independent money if you want to say something about the relation between the industry and the health my last question is about the assumptions that you have chosen for this special model you have chosen that PM10 as a tracer the bio mass burning I thought for example in european countries the average of the black carbon as used as a tracer for the burning mostly it's constructed in PM10 maybe you use PM10 as tracer for the burning but as we have in mind to do the epidemiological study we choose a tracer that we have the sponsor response function available so we have for PM not for black carbon you are right but the epidemiological study provide now at this moment I don't know in the future provide consolidated evidence concerning PM so we choose PM also because we don't really need a tracer a tracer also if it's another one it can be different it can be more or less that one so just we want to characterize the area in level different level we are not really interested in the amount of concentration the specific points because what we need was a special distribution of the phenomena I'm available I've got the last question from internet so this one I've got to ask you because it turns into seven minutes just very simple questions the user is waiting for 10 minutes for the question Samanet and then him and then Kofi she said as you concluded the dispassion model can be replaced by HBM but in dispassion model just PM was modeled isn't it needed to model a dispassion of each heavy metal and toxic material individually? I am already responsible now at the question sorry Samanet that was exactly the question we answer now okay for your interesting presentation just I have very two simple questions I think you said depends on your results of the model the limitation of pollutant is under the permission extremely under but I think you have four point source in the same area I think you should collect for this four point source together because it's in the same area excellent this is what we have done in epidemiological study we call it PM coming from industry independently of desserts and there's no time I can show you maybe in the slides we already did it because that's the point and that's what we did we collected simply some it's a sum because so we had each address PM coming from industry independent on the source which was 40 plus something because the contribution specific on the industry and the arbor or 0.00000 so what second is this model is kind of blue model or buff model buff model thank you okay just to remind you yesterday yes you know this little game I told you about when we had this round table the blackboard posted if you want to answer the question which is asked what is the action you you want to commit to doing when coming back to your country to bring better health to your fellow citizens back at 11 yes 11