So, I guess we're live. Thanks everybody for joining us. Before I introduce our speaker today, Cassie Thornton, I wanted to take a moment to explain why we're so glad to have her here, situated within this solar-punk, face-making narrative. Because I feel that just as our external, world-scale energy systems need to change to become more renewable, so to do our interpersonal, community-scale energy systems. Because, yeah, we need to renewably power our computers, but we also need to renewably power our resilience in the face of these challenging times ahead. And from what I've seen of Cassie's work as an artist and activist, I feel she's playing a really crucial role in resituating what are essential practices of collective care into modern society again. And I feel like when we participate in these post-scarcity social technologies placed here among our daily economic agenda, it becomes this act of liberating disobedience that I think really puts the punk in solar-punk. So Cassie has involved in feminist economics and a social scientist actively preparing for the economics of a future society that produces health and life without the tools to reproduce oppression. So with this, it's my pleasure to introduce Cassie Fonten, who's been exploring these practices, whether it's finger painting with grime found inside banks or donating cursed paintings to profiteering bankers or hypnotizing hedge fund managers to inventing social technologies such as grass-fruit alternative credit reporting services for survivors of gentrification, or in this case, peer to peer health care. She's often using institutional critique, insurgent architecture and these healing modalities to find the soft spots in the hard surfaces of at times oppressive capitalist life. Cassie is currently the co-director of reimagining value action lab in Thunder Bay. And I'm pleased to invite Cassie to walk us through her recent work, The Hologram, Peer to Peer Health Care for a Post-Pandemic Future. Cassie, thank you very much for being here. Yeah, thank you so much for coming. What a great introduction. I like all the words you used are so right, like disobedience and post scarcity. And yeah, so I've been working on projects around like kind of anti-debt projects for about a decade. And so I think that's useful to know that that's kind of where I'm coming from. I worked as an anti-debt activist and an artist, and you saw debt as the material that I worked with. And so kind of out of that work, I really hoped for and felt really lucky when I found a project that felt like it was like an antidote to the sort of super boring reality created by like debt bondage. And when I talk about debt, I'm definitely financial debt is definitely on my mind, but there's also all different scales of that and all different forms of debt that kind of control us and manipulate what we think is possible. And so yeah, I'm going to share my screen and just sort of like walk everybody through like where the project, what the hologram is and where it came from and how to do it. And if, yeah, Chris and Hany, like if you have any questions along the way, just feel free to pop in. Everybody can see it. So yeah, so the hologram, I like to say that like it's a strategic peer support project that rebuilds trust and begins to construct a network of transformation and interdependence that can outlast capitalism. I think it's a two part project. So part of it is like sort of telling a story that something else is possible, like we can organize our energy and our time differently to have a really different experience of reality using stuff we already have. And when I say stuff, it's like relationships, time, energy. And then the second part of it. Oh, so that first part, I mean, I think in a way, just telling a story that something else is possible that like maybe the hologram is an economic model that suggests that a lot is possible with a little. And so I like to kind of think about it almost as a para fictional project, like you can talk about it until it becomes real. And I think that's what's been happening. I just keep talking about it and how many people talk about it as if it's something and that makes it real. And then the second part is an actual pretty structured social practice that anyone can do. And it's been now practiced like heavily in the last just since the pandemic basically has been really heavily practiced online. And so we have a set of really clear rituals and protocols that can help you get started so that then you can make it your own. But it's a viral peer to peer model. And I want to make it really easy to do. So I'm going to try to help you guys to understand it today. I think it's really important to understand the roots of things and the roots for me really start with the social solidarity clinics in Greece that opened during the early 2010s, during a time of total austerity like financial collapse, and also a real refugee crisis. And there were clinics that opened all over Greece that offered totally free care. And these are now like very well documented online. So it's really interesting, I think, especially right now and in the coming months to really try to understand what they were doing and how they were doing it. For our uses, there was one particular clinic that I heard about like a rumor that was in Thessaloniki that was interested in not only offering free care but trying to offer non hierarchical care and really challenge what how we do medicine. And so this group was called a group for group for a different medicine. And I've been kind of like talking to them on the phone and learning about them for the last five years. And they came up with something called the integrative model, which is what the hologram is based on. And so this is just a little diagram I'm showing now that explains a little bit about what they did. So I think really important is that when a patient entered the clinic, they were not called a patient, they were called an encumber. And so that was with the idea that everybody needs care that there's not really a difference between a doctor and a patient in that way, you don't go to the doctor just because you're broken and you need to be fixed like everybody needs care all the time.  And so that encumber would be seen by a therapist, a social worker and a doctor at the same time. And in a short amount, well, not that short, actually, you know, in 90 minutes, they would ask loads of questions about all things about the patient or the encumber. Like, who are they? Where do they work? What do they eat? Where do they get their food? To whom do they owe debts?  And then in the end, they would have the patient actually lead a conversation, the encumber, I'm even messing, the encumber would lead a conversation about what they need. Like, what would it take for them to be healthy for the next year? And then they would, they would try to encourage the encumber to actually like use the doctors, rather than vice versa, rather than the doctors telling the encumber what they need. And I thought that was really striking. And that project itself is still going on in Thessaloniki and it has been for the all five years. And one of the people that worked on it, Frosso Morelli is an elder psychologist. And she told me when I first met her that basically, after practicing psychology for 30 or 40 years, this was the first time she could really see the whole person when she met with them. And that it made a person from a flat piece of paper or a number into a hologram. And that's where we got the name for the project. And so ever since it's just been a matter of learning about holography to figure out how we're using this metaphor for the project, which I love the challenge of working it backwards. But the big question I think for all of us always has been but maybe more acutely now than ever is how do you organize your own care before and during an emergency for or during an emergency in a set of completely unstable conditions. When this project first was being born, it was around 2016. And I was living in the US, none of my friends or I had any health care. We also lived in a very precarious way with no stable housing, no stable jobs. And many of us like having to leave the cities we were living in for a long time. And if it was bad for us, and many of us were white and able bodied people, like, what would that mean for everybody else? So we were, we were really interested in how we would take the project of the integrative model and apply it in the state specifically. And so we were asking ourselves these questions when we figured out what to do. So, you know, can we do this without experts, without money, without states, without space, without stability? Can we do it when we're all a little bit sick? And then how do we deal with trust? How can we do this when we've taught to own, we've been taught only to trust experts and maybe not to trust ourselves at all. Um, so our idea basically was to distribute the labor of attention and care that we saw happening in Thessaloniki. So now we call the person who was called the incomer a hologram. And the hologram invites three people to ask them questions. So quest one person asks the questions that a therapist would ask one person asks questions like what a social worker might ask. And one person asks questions like what a doctor might ask, but also much more. But that's a good starting point, I think. And so the idea is to sort of distribute the labor of listening. So I think, as I said, like it's a practice that is very much built about asking questions and curiosity. And that's the most central thing. But it's also about doing it over time. So the hologram invites three people to meet regularly over a period of time. And as you can imagine, if you meet, say, every couple of months, for even let's just say for a year, imagine how much the people, the listeners, who we actually call the triangle, imagine how much the triangle would learn about the patterns of the hologram. Like there's so much, you know, just in terms of language, what she says over and over and over again, and what that triangle begins to observe in terms of patterns of behavior and language. Imagine after a couple of years of meeting every three months that the hologram is told that they need a surgery. And the surgery, are you going to do the research to figure out if that surgery is right for you? So I think a really amazing thing is that the triangle can offer the service of co research in moments when the hologram needs to make a big decision. And over time, what I've seen happen in my own triangle and in many that I participate in is that the triangle becomes something like a different sort of living medical record, because you actually can see all these different things happening in somebody's life over time when you get the chance to see it in isolation. So the goal, though, is that when it comes to making big decisions, nobody has to do it alone. So we see the the incomer in Greece as the hologram here, and we see that person as a bit of like an expert about their own health. And we see them as a teacher. And I think it's really important when we do workshops and different types of courses about the hologram now. It's really hard to figure out how to be the hologram because in a weird way, asking for help and being vulnerable and articulate about what you need is really, really hard and super undervalued in our societies. And so in a weird way, you become a teacher when you're a hologram, because the way that you ask for what you need shows that that's even possible for somebody else. The triangle of three people that ask questions, I would say that the goal is not to solve a problem, even though that's often our orientation. The the real project is to kind of feel along with someone else. So like to really try to understand the nuances of their experience. And to be to let them know that you're you're just there with them in their story. I think it's there's a really interesting dimension of curiosity that can be like really generative and I think really like liberating in a way. So like the fact that somebody asks you to be in their hologram that when somebody asks you to be a member of their triangle, I think it feels really good because it means that you have permission to ask questions and show how much you care. And the questions, the lines of questions become very, very creative because the job of the triangle is to figure out how to kind of like help help the hologram to talk about what they need to talk about. And that's not always so easy. So it's it's a really kind of dynamic and interesting questioning process. And then the triangle we think of as like a living medical record, who carries the story of the hologram for as long as they decide to. So just a little review and I'm going to go over like how the kind of practice works online. So as I had mentioned before, in Greece, the incomer was seen by a doctor, a social worker and a therapist. Now we have three friends or acquaintances and we have been really sticking with the idea of inviting friends and acquaintances and not people who are anonymous into your triangle. So one person asked questions related to the physical. One asked questions related to the social and one asked questions to the mental and emotional. And all of those things overlap. They're a mess. It's not. Those are not clear categories. All of them have a really important amount of bleeding into the others. And this is a social practice that like morphs with the people that use it. So in my triangle, I have three people so far. They've always one person always asked me the physical questions. One person always asked me the social questions, etc. And when we talk about what is physical, my house is physical. The land I live on is physical. My body is physical. The medicine I take is physical. The food I eat is physical a lot. We're not just talking about like whether my, how my heart is beating or how I'm breathing, like the physical things that construct my life or what we're talking about. Same with the social, like social might be money. It might be power relations, relationships to systems. Obviously like there's the obvious stuff like family and working relationships and living relationships. It might be about your home. And when we talk about mental emotional, it can be the normal stuff that you talk about with a therapist, but it can also be like belief systems, like intellectual endeavors, dreams. It's really, it's not so limited. So we already kind of went over like what the triangle does in a more like metaphysical way or something. But now like what does the triangle actually do? Like they ask questions. We, that's clear. They notice patterns. And I think over time, they devise a way of taking and keeping notes, which so far has been different for everybody. And we're working on making more better systems for how to kind of keep and organize notes. Since this is a really important part of this kind of like endurance, the endurance part of the project. And then I think like time is a really interesting material in the project. So the goal is that we do these things for a long time.  But what if we imagine like, okay, we meet every three months, spend about two hours in that meeting. And then we might start out by saying let's do it for a year and imagine like what what kind of trust would be built in practices and like the nuance that would happen in a year, but then like let's imagine five years. And the goal is that maybe we could even think about doing it for like 10 years or like 20 years, which is really like beyond imagination in a time with like such a short a short attention span and so many different forms of crisis and distraction. I think this is something this kind of radical planning is something that is really powerful, because it does expand beyond what we're like allowed to think about or plan plan for in term. Yeah. And so I think the really, really important part is that it's viral. And so I'm just talk more about the viral nature of it in a minute. But I think it's really this colors are experience of it so much because you don't give back what you receive in equal form. So it's not like the other things we experience, like we're not trying to like compensate somebody for what they gave to us in an equal measure. We are creating a culture of care where like the culture moves through people. And when everybody's getting what they need, what they need, it doesn't matter if Kenny gives me something and I give it back to them in exact in equal amounts, like honey's going to get what they need. And like that's the I think that we're looking at trying to make our energy and workflow rather than getting stuck in a loop between people, which always, which often leads to a type of burnout on multiple different levels. And so what do I want to say about this? So this is really interesting because reciprocity makes the project grow because people don't want to be a burden. It forces the project to grow. So I my job as a hologram is to make sure that the people that support me get support. And so I see I see it as my job to make sure that my three people have three people and help them do that. When they're ready, that's how I pay it forward. And that feels really important to the project. The main ideas of the project, which might be very obvious, I think it's good to say anyway. You don't need to be broken or sick to need care and attention. It takes work to receive good care. It's not easy to say what you need and to actually follow through with it. It takes a lot of negotiation, which is not something that we get to practice so much. Especially when we're talking about hardcore resources like time and energy and emotion. The person who needs and receives care is an expert and teacher. And the person just because you're giving care doesn't mean that you have power or that you are an advisor or an expert. In fact, it's the opposite. And it's like, it's an interesting that like trying to ask good questions that don't that are not presenting your expertise is actually hard for a lot of people. So this is like, it's kind of an interesting form of learning. So the practice now is a really quite coherent online ritual that a large group of us have been working on for like, I guess now about nine or 10, no, about yeah, about 10 months. And so I don't often get a chance to share it. And so like with such clarity, but this is some people practicing it. So this is when we're doing a facilitated online hologram. So it's like a one time shot. And so that's why I'm might you can see my name there, though I'm not participating because it's one person and then they're three people joining them and I was facilitating. I'll explain that more in a minute. But the practice as an online ritual has really basic components now. The first part is stock dance, which comes from social presencing theater. I see any smiling. So I think that might be familiar. Everyone in the group online, we suggest does this or some other embodying and kind of communicative exercise. So in my group, we say hello, how's it going? And then we're like, should we get into it? And we do the stock dance. And so every person stands up, imagines a situation in their life in which they feel stuck. They try to embody that as a shape. The other people in the group go around and make a statement that does not analyze, but just explains what they what they witnessed in the sculpture that is the body. After that section, we do something really simple called marking the task. The hologram says what it is that they would like to talk about. And we divide that into two parts. They say, what is it they want to talk about? What kind of feeling do they want to create? Do they want to produce more energy? Do they want to get themselves out of a hole? Do they want to like, create like, do they want to create laughter? Like, what is it that they really need and want for themselves and the group? The next section is the biggest section, which is usually we try to do it at least 45 minutes, where the triangle members just get to ask loads of questions. So like, you know, based on what the body spoke in the stuck dance, and then also what the hologram said when they marked the task, you know, like, you start anywhere.  And it, it generally starts a little bit slow and crunchy and then quickly there becomes a kind of rhythm. And we don't organize who ask questions when we let it flow. And every group I think is different. After that, we leave at least 10 minutes for reflections. And reflections are like a chance for everybody in the group, including the hologram to say, like, what was the most important stuff that happened? Like, and the original idea that was of this was to say what resonated with you, like, as a triangle member, when you said this, it made me it reminded me of something that has happened to me. And the goal of this was to make the hologram not feel like they were kind of alone in in having some experiences or showing some vulnerabilities. But now we've kind of opened it up and it's like, really, like, what do you want to not forget that was said? What gave you goosebumps or chills? Stuff like that. And then the last part is feedback. And this we'd like to leave like 15 minutes, 10 or 15 minutes for usually give everybody a break to think about it for a second. So we use three forms of feedback. One is making a wish. So the triangle says like, you know, based on what you said, like, I think what I wish for you is that can be alongside or separate from a with a pattern.  And I just want to offer that, like, I, you know, it's not the word advising, but like, this is what I see. And then my favorite is giving a provocation. So like, what if you were to try X? So it's not advice, but it's an offering of like a potential way forward. All together, that usually takes it can take anywhere from an hour and 15 minutes to two hours. So this is a little bit more about the viralness, but I don't see. So I think I've actually already talked for 45 minutes, and I want to have time for questions. So I'm going to go and see if there is something that's really important here. When we do workshops online, I think this is interesting. We do a lot. We teach a lot of courses online right now so people can get used to using the hologram. And we try to use the personal pronoun we threw a lot of it, which has really, really affected what's possible to stay in a group of 28 people from around the world online. It's been really interesting. And then if you if anybody ends up practicing the hologram in a real regular way, or just like even is trying to set up their hologram, we offer, we have a telegram group called the community of practice. And then in a monthly meeting where between like 10 and 30 people get together and speak about how it's going using the hologram. And this is where we learn a lot about what's happening with people and how to change and adapt the project. And it feels like a really amazing laboratory. So if anybody is interested that that is on the website, you can join a public part of you can join a channel at the moment from the website. And then I would bring you into the zoom if you wanted to talk about it. Hope that was useful. That was brilliant. Thank you, Cassie. Definitely added some new dimension to what I already knew of the work from reading the book, but it was really nice to hear you articulate it. And especially what really resonated with me was I was looking for pieces to dispel how big a task it seems to ask for help from people. And then one of the things I really like that you mentioned is that the people who are giving help aren't the experts. They're not there to give you advice on specifically what to do, but they're just there to be in your story with you. And as you write in your book, like so much of what we seek for health is outside of the domain of medicine. And I think that is just such a huge component of it, like we just seek people to be in our story with us and to help give us some outside perspective and advice. So that was that was really, really meaningful for me. Thank you. I have a couple of follow up questions, but I don't know if any of you want to mention anything before. Yeah, I just want to kind of, I mean, you addressed this a little bit in your book, but for those of us, including myself, who are super eager just to get to that entry point, I would like to know, like, yeah, like where, where to begin? Because you have a lot of sets of questions and there's you address this thing about feeling maybe you don't have time for it. And so like just getting to that point of entry so that it's like super doable if there's these groups that are online that are regular or which part of the book is the best place to start or, you know, like, where is it to just get in there? I'm going to share with you guys. I meant to do it earlier.  I think the book is was written very soon after we started to like really practice it and have an online kind of like like right after the project had an online life. And it I don't know that the book is actually the manual that you need to get started. I think it it really helps to get you the feeling and the ideas. But I don't think it's like quite a manual and we're making a manual now that will be much more direct in that way. And but I think like the project also is an oral tradition. And I think that or something like an oral tradition, I wish I had a better word, but it's like something that moves through people. So like, you know, after you like when you get this set of instructions, I'm going to send you and that you guys can post online if it's useful anywhere for anybody that's watching this. I think that the key is you can read about it, but you really need to talk to somebody about it because it brings up a lot of stuff. And there's a lot of questions. And I think it's like like the structure has a bunch of nuance to it, which is useful for getting started. And I think it's like you can read it. And you can have somebody tell you about it on Zoom. But I think the really key thing is like having relationships with other people that are doing it and who can talk you through it. And so we're coming up, we're working on lots of different ways that that can happen more easily. But like the top of the instruction manual says like you can read this, but after that, you should probably call us. The other stuff that we're up to that can that's really like accessible and online is that we're launching our third online course in that will start in February. And our hope is to have half of the people there health care workers and half can be anyone. And the applications will open on the website on January 4th. That's a six week course. And it's really, it's really interesting what happens because I think, you know, people really have to explore like why it's so hard to ask for help. And how do we like establish a practice of making sure that the people who are doing the care work are getting cared for. It's it's deep. And then the other thing that we have taken a pause on, but will be up and running again in February is a thing called the minimum viable hologram, which is a thing where you could basically sign up online to have a facilitated two hour session. So like Chris could sign up, bring three friends, and then Chris is like, I just, I like, I can't find a new apartment. And like I'm really overwhelmed. And it doesn't seem like something that I should be talking about given that I'm a white guy, and like the whole world is collapsing.  But like, I'm freaking out. And then Chris has three friends to like, hear that with him. And then by the end of the conversation, give some reflections and feedback. That's usually like pretty freaking helpful. And you have a bunch of friends that really know where you're at. So we've been facilitating those. And now there's a team of like six facilitators that can do those online. We're just like trying to redo our website and like like the ways that people sign up and everything. So by February, that should hopefully be going. But yeah, I mean, I think the project is still just like making the tools it needs to actually become accessible. And in the meantime, like I think it's, it really is about just like getting your three people together on Zoom or in person and kind of feeling it out.  I've been saying every three months and I started to do every three months with my group. Because I was thinking that I would do it around like the solstices and equinoxes. And then I had some health problems and we've been meeting now, we were starting to meet every month and now we're going to meet every week until like we kind of figure out what the deal is with my body. And I think that that is amazing. But I think you can just you can start with something really gentle, like even just do one and say like, we want to just try this and see how it feels. I think, and just for anybody, like any of you guys that wanted to set up your first meeting, if you were going to do it online, I would be more than happy to show up. Or one of the other people that are involved would be happy to kind of show up and like help you guys sort of set up your first meeting. You know, 15 minutes and we could help it. Super generous. Thank you, Cassie. I wanted to ask a question about in approaching this minimal viable hologram, like you said, how to get over the indecision of like who to choose, because especially when you're talking about a length of commitment that might be six months a year, five years, 10 years, it's kind of like choosing three people to marry. So yeah, I wonder if you could give any give a speak to that at all of just how to start with it or and how much. Yeah, who to choose and what you should consider in choosing for your three people? I mean, the goal is, I think that like potentially people who are not used to being in a supportive position could participate in this and learn. So it doesn't have to be somebody who you think is like really good, like, like you don't have to pick like your your friends that work in social work or or or anything. And I think for me, I was really clear about wanting people that make that like if I walked into a room with the three of them, I would be comforted and like calm and not like, yeah, just not like sweating, you know, I picked people that I have been either that I've organized with or done a lot of like seen that who I've seen work with other people who I know can play with others well, and that like kind of give other people dignity who they work with that seemed really important to me. Because I don't want to have to be like a sort of mediator for them if they don't feel well together. And I also chose people who I feel like do different things for me. One person is like a very, very old friend who I feel like I can be myself in front of no matter what, who's really like a calming person. One person is a person who like challenges me a lot, who's like who I know would like not let me like go too far, like in any one direction without helping me question it. And then one person who I think it represents a bunch of qualities like like is really, really gentle, but in a way that I'm so not. And I just wanted them around to kind of like help me to help be like the opposite of me in a weird way. But I felt like together they represent really different things to me. Other people talk about how they almost like see people as colors and they try to like make a color palette that's balanced. I just think it's like it's really I think up to you to figure out like what would make you feel really comfortable because potentially at first it's a bit nerve wracking to have all that attention and feel all the responsibility. I guess the last thing I'll say about it is that the people that I chose was really, really, they were people who when I receive like a transmission from them like an email, a text, a phone call, whatever, I always look forward to it. They're not people, they're people whose communications I really understand and who like like deep down I'm like tickled by when I receive something from them. That was that felt really important to me because there's a lot of people who I think are like would be good. But I don't know, like something about our chemistry makes me actually feel like happy and comfortable. And that's not everybody, you know, I would say it's not a good idea to choose people who you think would be interested in the project. I think this has we've we've seen that this failed a lot when you're like, I think these people would find this project interesting. Like this is the kind of thing they do in their own practice. They would probably like it. I think it's more about like you and your connection to them. Hmm, that's beautiful. Those are some really good tools to work with and templates to consider that way. Thank you. That that actually I don't take it too much time, but that actually leads me brilliantly into the next question because you talk about just their ending it on the note of it's really you and how you approach it, your responsibility to ask for help and in the asking for help, you also grow the capacity to teach others about how to ask for help. But still after reading the book and reflecting on thinking about practicing this myself, I still find that as quite a big stumbling block of this overcoming the hurdle of asking for help. And I identified a few things in the presentation you gave actually that were some nuggets of things that I thought would would help push that a bit forward because I feel I was specifically looking for them. But I wondered if you could maybe reiterate if you feel I've already said them or just speak to this idea of how to overcome this the stigma almost of of asking for help. Mm hmm. I mean, in my triangle recently, I was like, I'm too tired and too overwhelmed to like to do it. Like I can't. I need I was like, I need you guys to schedule our next meeting because it's like all my batteries of like taking risks and being an organizer are worn down. And I just I just I literally could not just write the email to schedule it or set up a doodle bowl or whatever. So I think like asking for help could be asking for help, asking for help. Otherwise, I don't know. I mean, I think that the thing about this is that like for for those of us that are like wired for like social organizing and that like need to feel like we're part of like something good that's happening in the world outside of ourselves. I do think it really helps to have a group of people to talk about it with who make it feel like this is something we're all doing.  And so then we talk about it and it makes it feel more like we're part of like a sort of different form of a social movement than it feels just like we're like just needy people that are kind of like looking for a new form of therapy or something. Because I just think like it's so easy. We're just yeah, like the forms of kind of like help and support that we have been given for most of our lives are like tied to monetization but are also just like like cheap or something or like they they they didn't I don't know, I just feel like it's it's it's social for me. It's like it's easy for me to ask for help. If I see that like the other people in my pack are doing that too. Um. Yeah. Hmm. Yeah, thanks for that. That's something you reminded me in the presentation that in receiving care as you participating as a hologram pretty quickly it's then your job to help those people form their own hologram. And I think even that is is help for me at least towards feeling like it's like I'm not taking. Yeah, I guess the other part of it that's quite surprising is that the process can be very fun and funny. Like it's not like it's like just dragging people through the muck with me. Like, you know, we're not like just like we're not broken. I think this is the big trick is that like deep down a lot of people fear that they are like broken. They're like if you start to ask them questions, there's like a dark tunnel that leads to a chasm that like everybody that like gets in there is going to get like like sucked in and turned to goo or something. But actually like we're all like dynamic people with like really good things and then like hard things. And the conversation is like not dark most of the time. Maybe sometimes. But I think it gives it gives more energy than it takes away and not just to the hologram to the whole group. And that's really important to keep in mind in terms of like getting away from the idea of like scarcity, like everybody's running out of time and energy and you're going to be the burden that breaks everybody. It's not it's just not the case. So then maybe asking for help. I don't know that help is ever the right word in the situation. I just haven't had a better word come. But like maybe like asking for what we're asking for is not a subtraction. Like and that is different. It's not it's maybe even an additive process. That's the beautiful framing. Yeah, that's a beautiful framing. Thanks. I picked up on something that you said also in the presentation there that in asking people to be part of your hologram, you're actually giving them permission to ask curious questions or to invite them into the curiosity of another person's life that they might otherwise feel that they can't ask or that they wouldn't ask otherwise, but it would actually be quite entertaining and it would be quite this like a mutually joyous ritual. So yeah, because I'm just dying to know like when all of you woke up and what you ate for breakfast and like how you're like how do you handle really bad news or like it really it's like so interesting actually. And it's so comforting to know like more about other people. It's like, you know, it really helped to feel like part of society or part of the species or something. I don't have any more questions. I just am so. Over excited to be everyone's triangle in everyone's triangle. You just want to get started now. Funny, it's like, I mean, so when we after we did the first course and the courses are really focused on trying to get people to become holograms.  And I do, I think it's like such a thing. Because it is like it's really fun to be in the triangle like you're you're kind of in a bit of the passenger position. But then in the second course that we taught, it was which was called like we must the first course was called is this the beginning or is this the end? The second course was called we must begin again asking for help as a new world. And so in the second one, it was all about why it's so hard to ask for help. And like maybe the second or third time we met, everybody went around in this sort of question section and asked questions about like or basically said that in some way they didn't feel like they could ask good enough questions. Like they felt like totally insufficient and that like the holograms were all like so powerful and like amazing that like how could they possibly support these amazing people? How could they ever ask good enough questions? And I think, yeah, it's so interesting because I feel like there's a kind of there's a kind of path that most people take where it like starts out but it's like seems that the the role of the triangle is like the it's like really attractive and easy. And then once you get into it, there's a moment where you're like, whoa, actually this is like this is a big job. Am I up to it? Do I deserve it? Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And of course you can total anyone can do it. It's the most natural thing to be curious and to learn about somebody. But it's interesting because I think there's like. There's a kind of path that's been carved a little bit for us. I think it's such a soothing perspective to to. Have the hologram be the expert because the way that we've been, yeah, doing health care for so long is that.  So it's just such a nice refreshing approach. The whole project really. I mean, I find that it really helps me. It helps me go to the doctor in a way like. It makes it a lot easier for me to be ready to talk to doctors who have only 10 minutes and who they just want to figure out the quickest way to get the crazy person out. You know, they're like, what's wrong with you? Get her out. That's their job. And I think that the the amazing thing about the hologram is that like you're like. Instead of just feeling like you're labeled as like crazy or sick, like all of that becomes so much more complex and think to have people that actually understand the sort of like long term trajectory that you're on of like how all the different parts of yourself are developing that you can like. It's so much easier to sort of see like see what the doctor is working on as one small piece of the larger picture. And so then it's much easier to sort of like negotiate with them and ask for staff. And I even like process with my group sometimes like I mean a lot lately. What is it that I really need to know from the doctor? Like what is it that I really like they have their strategy but what's my strategy? So that's I think it's really interesting because I think for those of us that are like trying like seeking and needing to get care from biomedicine. It's really nice to have some people along with you on the journey because it's a long process. Yeah, we had a question in the chat also about the phrasing of asking for help and the fact that this practice is actually much more than just asking for somebody to help. And I think you spoke to that and we were searching also for this other framing and for me it's kind of it's almost what comes to mind is asking somebody to learn about care. It's like would you like to learn about how to care for ourselves and each other and indeed the world with me through this process or yeah, because it's so much more than just asking for help, isn't it? It's benefiting both sides. Yeah, support like mutual support. I mean, I asked me for partnership. It's interesting. I mean, I think there's like a fine dance because the like we don't want to like overwhelm. Like I think that it's so much about trying to figure out the language that's like precise enough. And that that brings people in instead of pushing them away because like I think one way that I think a lot one thing that many people have told me that they've experienced is that when they've asked people to join their triangle, even for just a one time thing, some people have actually said no because it's overwhelming. And it's not overwhelming and experience, but it sounds overwhelming. So how do you make is partnership less overwhelming than help? I don't know. I think it's like maybe it really has has to be like hyper local, like, you know, like each person in a weird way needs to figure out what they can say, although it would be nice if we had some. I mean, I think we're working on like some really solid like linguistic systems so that like we know what we can say and that stuff can be like used as a tool so that it's not so hard every time you want to set a hologram up. It's not like reinventing the wheel, but for right now it is. Great. Yeah. Thank you so much, Cassie. I think we're approaching the end of our time now. I just encourage anybody if you don't already have it to pick up the hologram by Cassie. It's a really short book and it helps situate the practice and really color it. And I know Cassie you're working on other resources too. Is there any any place you want to direct people who are interested in practicing this or learning more? I think the easiest thing at the moment is the hologram.XYZ. It has it has a lot of really clear information on it. And I think for now that's probably the best bet. Cool. Thanks. And stay tuned everybody to this channel where we'll continue to publish any resources that Cassie sends us. Thank you very much. Thank you, honey.


Good evening everyone. My name is Crane Porter. I'm an exhibit curator here at the National Archives and it's my pleasure to welcome you all to the William G. McGowan Theatre this evening here in Washington, DC for our program Monument Man, the Life and Art of Daniel Chester French. Whether you're here in DC or watching on YouTube, thank you for joining us. This evening's program is presented in partnership with the linking group of the District of Columbia. The nation's longest-serving organization devoted to studying the life and legacy of Abraham Lincoln, and we thank them for their support this evening. Following tonight's discussion, we will have a book sale and signing of Monument Man with author Harold Holzer in the library, in the lobby outside of the theater. In the holdings of the National Archives, we have numerous records related to President Lincoln, including his original State of the Union addresses, as well as his presidential pardons, commissions, and endorsements. Of course, one of our true national treasures is the original Emancipation Proclamation, which will be on exhibit from April 14th through the 16th this year, along with the DC Emancipation Act. Please visit archives.gov for more information about those displays as well as any related activities. Now, it's my pleasure to introduce John O'Brien, President of the linking group of the District of Columbia. John is a retired hospital executive who now pursues his interest in President Lincoln's connections with individuals who lived and worked in neighborhoods near the White House. He also gives lectures and leads tours. Please join me in welcoming John O'Brien. Thank you, Corinne. The linking group is pleased to once again be a co-sponsor of another high quality Lincoln event with the National Archives. For those familiar faces that I see, you know the reputation that the archives has for the quality of what goes on here, and we are just delighted to be able to work with them on it. The mission of the linking group is to learn and to educate about the life and dedication of Abraham Lincoln to his philosophy of equality and liberty under the law. In his attitude, this be done with malice toward none and charity for all. We do this through programs and educational programs events, such as the Lincoln study group, which meets at the Ford's Theatre Conference Center one Saturday a month to discuss a book and related issues to that. We also, for the March meeting, our regular meeting will be in conjunction with the Abraham Lincoln Institute, which is also being held at the Ford's Theatre. That's an all day seminar. It's free, but it does require advanced registration. If you go online to the Ford's Theatre site, you can participate with us. We will be announcing this year the creation of a scholarship dedicated to the memory of our late past president, John Illiff, who was a dedicated educator, and we view the scholarship as an important way of extending our mission to professional educators who participate with Ford's Theatre. Our regular monthly meetings are on the third Tuesday of every month. You can find out more about what we do and how we do it at LincolnGroup.org. Again, sit back, enjoy the program. We're delighted to be with you this evening and look forward to Harold and Edith's presentation. Corrine? Thank you, John. Now it is my pleasure to welcome our speakers to the stage. Please join me in welcoming Harold Holzer, author of Monument Man and Edna Green Medford, Interim Dean and Professor of History at Howard University. Welcome to the stage. Good evening, everyone. What we're going to do is I'm going to ask Harold lots of questions that he knows the answers to because Harold has been doing incredible work in this area for many, many years. He's also going to share some slides with us. I think it's going to be a lovely evening. So sit back and relax. And Harold, this is your first question. So why Daniel Chester French? What was it about this one sculpture that captured your imagination? I wish I could say in all honesty that it was my idea to do this book. I was very lucky. In this case, the National Trust for Historic Preservation approached me. Just to step back, I've been going to the Berkshires for a weekend or a week in the summer for 40 years with my wife and with our kids and now with our grandson. And we always go to Chesterwood, the summer home and studio of Daniel Chester French. We were going there before it was opened as a National Trust site or just about when it became open. And we always loved it. And then I started doing Lincoln programs for them as a benefit for Chesterwood and ultimately the director said would you like to do the first biography that has ever been written by a non-family member? And I just thought it was an irresistible opportunity. So that's the back story. But the Lincoln Memorial is, to me, the greatest public monument not only in Washington but in the country. So it was a pleasure and an honor to look more deeply into it. What I found interesting about the book, among many things, was that it's really two books in one. So one is the biography of a great man, the life of a great man. The other is the story or stories of his great art. What did you find to be the most difficult to recapture or to reconstruct? Without question, the hardest thing was to animate him because he was a reticent, Yankee, closed-mouthed, non-communicative guy. His sense of humor at one point was compared to Calvin Coolidge's. And that was considered a compliment in 1922. But his letters are about business. His jokes are, you know, that kind of sharp-edged one-line comments. He's caustic. He's mercenary, you know, in a way that professional artists are with all due respect to our professional artists who are here. The great Wendy Allen is here who is the best Lincoln artist in the country from Gettysburg. I don't mean mercenary as a derogatory. I mean, he talks about clients and opportunities and commissions and competitions.  In the end, he said whenever he was asked for interviews or comments or letters about his art and what inspired him, he would say it's all in the sculptures. He had nothing to add, and that can be a problem and a challenge. So it was easier to see him through his art than it was through his papers. Let's talk a little bit about the personality of the man.  I was struck by the relationship he had with his father. Here's a man who in the mid to late 19, well, really late 19th century, he's pursuing art at a time when parents, professional parents, as you've said, would have expected their children and their sons would have gone on to follow in their footsteps. And here's a man who pursued something that was very different from what his father was. His father was a fairly well-known jurist, but this man had a different calling. His father supported it at that time and did more than that. Actually was one of his biggest supporters and sort of intervened on many instances to get him positions that he might not have been willing to pursue himself. So where does that come from? That's got to be rather unusual for that time. So Henry Flag French, as you say, was a New Hampshire-born Massachusetts judge. He was a college president briefly, unsuccessfully. He was a little too progressive for his trustees. I guess it's where UMass Amherst is now. That was his school. It was a small school.  One son became the founding director of the Art Institute of Chicago. So he was an art administrator. And Dan was, you know, he was not interested in academics. He was interested in bird watching and in sculpting. And his father still did make him go to MIT for a while. I've seen his transcript. He was not made for MIT. And MIT was not made for him. What his father did that I think was extraordinary. Well, by this time they were in Concord, Massachusetts. And Concord is such an intellectually alive town. Emerson lives there. The Alcots live there. And, you know, it's a town that's brimming over with creativity. And French goes to May Alcott, not Louisa May Alcott, but the sister Amy and little women, who is a drawing teacher. And he sends Dan to her and he says basically, can he really do this? I mean, is this going to work? And he sculpts for her and she becomes his teacher. And he keeps that first sculpting tool for the rest of his life. So his father gives him a test, MIT, not so good, May Alcott. And then after that, he encourages him to take classes with William Rimmer and others. But you point out the rest of the support system. So Henry Flag French becomes a political appointee in the Treasury Department under President Grant and survives for, you know, for a good 10 years in government service. And when Dan comes back from a sojourn in Italy already with a big success behind him, he has nothing to do, no prospects. And his father gets him commissions to do post office buildings, you know, the big statues on top of buildings in Boston and Philadelphia, which the Treasury Department builds. I didn't know that they were responsible for the building. And that's how he supports himself. So his father is, now whether that's appropriate or not, we can debate. But his father is very open about it. And he definitely, until Dan at about the age of 29 or 30, is secure enough to go off on his own without his father's patronage and intervention. His father means everything to him and to his career. He sort of stick around until he's about 37 years old. I mean, he's with his parents for a long, long time, it seems. Well, he does establish an independent life back in Concord. But he lives in the family home. And his brother comes in and out. His sister and the sister's husband come in and out. And in the summer his father and stepmother come back. So, yeah, he's around. He's in the family unit and he builds his own studio about 200 feet from his house. So he doesn't stray too far. Only later does he rent studio space in Boston and really start moving in a more independent direction. Very dependent on his father, for sure. He does come across in your book as being a bit of a ladies' man. But a ladies' man who's kind of not willing to commit. He has this very...  He has this long-term relationship apparently at least a few years with Thomas Ball's daughter, Lizzie. But he kind of dumps her at the docks when he returns from Europe. So they're traveling together with her family and then he arrives. His father is there waiting for him and it doesn't seem like he even says goodbye to her. I should have written it that way. That's really... That's what I got out of it. So running it from a guy's perspective, well, it's over. You know, they had a very strange relationship. She was the great beauty of Florence, the expat American beauty in Italy. And he developed a crush on her and wrote to his family about her. I don't know if she really reciprocated it. That's the thing. I think she had lots of suitors and she married a sculptor, which annoyed French tremendously, made him very jealous. So he was flirtatious but not terribly committed. He had a great head of hair. I was so happy that he lost his hair. I just think, you know, it's poetic justice. And then when he finally gets married, he marries his first cousin. Which he was concerned about and did research about to find out what impact such a relationship might have on their children. And they resisted getting together and he did not commit while his father was alive. He thought perhaps his father was not able to handle it. His stepmother was fine and they really stayed away from each other even though she summered at the Concord house as well. And she was, you know, seven or eight years younger than him and an occasional model for him. So this is a complicated romantic and personal life. But they did marry. They postponed their wedding. They had a June wedding, I think, scheduled for Washington. She's from Washington. And at this point his father is still situated. I'm sorry, he's not situated here. But her family is here. And he has produced a model for a statue of Thomas Gallaudet for Gallaudet College. And Augustus St. Gaudens comes to look at it. And St. Gaudens was the more famous sculptor at this point. But they weren't that far apart in age. So they had a strange relationship too. They were competitors, friends, and St. Gaudens was always the senior guy. The more famous. The one who did Lincoln first. And St. Gaudens apparently said something to him about the Gallaudet. Something on the order of, the legs are too short. So he was really upset. And he told Mary, Mary French, that they couldn't get married in June because he had to fix the sculpture. So she waited and she said we got married in the hottest city in the world, in the hottest month in the world. July in Washington. But it was for work. And she realized that was her lot in life. She was going to be, it was not a bad life, but she was going to be traveling and supporting him. He also, she had no creative input into that marriage. He built, he bought a house for her in New York. He decorated it himself. He chose all the wallpaper, all the drapes, all the furniture. Did the same thing when they built a home in Massachusetts. You know, she, she was sort of the child bride in the old, late 19th century sense of things for better or for worse. But he was the boss of the creative side of the family. Now, about his work, it seemed that he was a little anxious with most of his work. You know, that the idea that at the time that his most important work at that point was about to be dedicated, he decides to pack up and go to Europe. Because he's a little concerned about how people are going to respond to it. My patrons, he had patrons that he was worried about. My patrons at the National Trust don't agree with me completely that he didn't, he was anxious about this first work. The first work is the Minuteman, the famous Minuteman in Concord, Massachusetts, which is really the other great iconic work that he did before the Lincoln Memorial. It's been the brand of everything from this great little collection at Chesterwood of labels and advertising materials relating to the Minuteman. Before Jell-O, the first Minut custard had a Minuteman on it. The NRA has a Minuteman logo, the National Guard, Savings Bonds. So it was really a tremendously influential image of American preparedness and instant reaction. He was uncertain about it because he had never done a statue when he got the job. He got the job, his father was influential in Concord. Emerson wanted him to do it. All of the big wigs, the all-cots supported his getting the commission. There was no competition. But again, he had never done a statue and the stories of his doing it are almost comical.  So it could have been, and his father is holding one end and he's holding the other. It could have been a disaster. And I think he was worried that it would fail. So he took the opportunity to go to Europe. He did not go to Paris, which many of his generation were doing. There was a whole new kind of sculpture and painting. You know, it's the moment of the Impressionists. And he does not stop in Paris for long. And he goes on to Florence because he's interested in the classical tradition. And then the opening day of The Minute Man is the 100th anniversary of the fight at the Concord Bridge in 1875.  But it was a big deal. Ulysses S. Grant managed to come, president of the United States. Ambrose Burnside led his veterans. But Daniel Chester French did not go. And I think he was petrified of what the reaction would be. And it was a sensation. Immediately lauded. But he wasn't there for the ceremony. And he wasn't there for the parties. His father stood in for him at everything. Very proudly. How did he view himself in comparison with other sculptors of his era? Well, of people his own age, like Martin Milmore, whose memorial he lived to do because Milmore died young, he was convinced of his superiority. He was less secure when it came to St. Gauntes. St. Gauntes was a phenomenon. And getting great commissions. And occasionally St. Gauntes would say, you can come along with me and we'll do a death mask together. But I think as long as St. Gauntes lived, French was insecure about his position. St. Gauntes died young and of cancer. And by this time, Daniel Chester French has become a trustee of the Metropolitan Museum of Art, which should have been enough to convince him of his importance. And he very magnanimously organizes the first American sculpture exhibition at the Met devoted to St. Gauntes. And then he sort of becomes almost a sculpture curator at the Met doing exhibitions, acquisitions, fundraising. And he's very generous about St. Gauntes and helps ensure his reputation. The Met owns hundreds of St. Gauntes models and medals and statuettes and large pieces because French wanted them at the Met. So after St. Gauntes' death, I would say from 1900 to 1930, French is, you know, from the age of 50 to 80, he believes he's the greatest American sculptor. He's certainly racking in the money. You know, he gets $75,000 for the Lincoln Memorial, which is a lot of dough in the year, even in the roaring 20s. And would you say he was the greatest American sculptor? Yeah, I think so. I love St. Gauntes. I had a very nice letter from a critic who is writing about the book. And he said that until he read it, he believed St. Gauntes was in his own class and French was at the top of the second tier. But now he believes that French belongs, at least in the same discussion as St. Gauntes. St. Gauntes might have gotten the commission to do the Lincoln Memorial had he lived. There was actually a move, and I'll show you the slide at some point tonight, when they were building the Lincoln Memorial, you know, it was being financed by the Congress, so they were looking to save money. And it was the costing of fortune and the ground was sinking and the floor was cracking and it was a runaway, budgetarily it was a runaway enterprise. And someone had the idea, why don't we just get a copy of St. Gauntes Chicago Abraham Lincoln The Man, also known as Standing Lincoln. It could save a fortune. And it almost happened. St. Gauntes widow began campaigning for it. And fortunately for French the architect who was doing the building was his long time and frequent collaborator, a young architect named Henry Bacon, with whom he had worked at first in Chicago at the World's Fair of 1893. And Bacon and he conspired to put a stop to it. And then French got the commission. And you make a success of it. You're going to be the greatest American sculptor if you do it right. And I think he did everything, everything about that statue is perfect. Except the back, the story of how it came into existence. And then the little issue of lighting and that kind of thing becomes problematic. Could you share a little bit about his other work? I mean, we know about the Lincoln Memorial, the seated Lincoln Memorial. But what about some of the other works that he did before he got to that point? He did one other really good Lincoln in Lincoln, Nebraska. They commissioned him to do a standing Lincoln for the state capital. He did a fine job. And you know, the head is tilted down. It's really the way he saw Lincoln. And hands clasped before him. Great story about it. And by the way, when it was dedicated in about 1911, William Jennings Bryan gave the dedicatory address. And he said, is there anyone in this audience who saw Abraham Lincoln? And about a hundred hands shot up. You know, it's 45 years. And I guess it's possible. I saw Linda Johnson once, so, you know, goes back in a big place. But I saw him. When they were previewing the model that he did in Lincoln, Nebraska, it was under a drape. And an elderly lady came up to French who was there with his daughter and said, you know, I saw Abraham Lincoln. He said, oh, that's wonderful. I wish I'd spoken to you before. He said all the right things. And she said yes. And she said I saw him speak.   And they undraped. And she said, you saw him too? I was 15 when he died. I know, but he somehow intuited it. So I think that was a great Lincoln work. But here in Washington, it's not in great shape last I saw, but the Admiral Dupont Circle, you know, the Dupont Soul Memorial to Admiral Dupont is by Daniel Chester French. And it has representations of wind and storms to represent a life at sea. It's a beautiful work. The Gallaudet statue at the school is Daniel Chester French. There is a not so successful but interesting piece that's sort of behind the White House grounds called winged victory. It's a world winged, yeah, the arch of victory. It's a winged figure. And it's a World War I memorial commissioned by the big red, the big red one as they call this heroic unit of World War I. And the general who commissioned it didn't like the fact that it was a naked female figure. He thought it was not respectful. And by this point, as like Daniel Chester French said, take it or leave it. But there are, you know, wonderful works all over the country. He did a general grant in Philadelphia. He did a hooker equestrian for Boston. Those who have been to the Guimet Museum in Paris, the Asian Art Museum, may know that there's a George Washington equestrian right outside that museum just by coincidence. It wasn't an Asian Art Museum then. And the Place de Ana and that's his only work overseas. The four continents in front of the Custom House in New York, Richard Morris Hunt Memorial in New York, a fabulous sculpture of Ralph Waldo Emerson and a statue adaptation in Concord, Massachusetts. I'm going to miss something. Thomas Starr King, what is it? Oh, yes, thank you. He had a whole career in college presidents. John Harvard at Harvard University, the Alma Mater at Columbia University, Brooklyn and Queens for the Manhattan Bridge, he had a lot of, he worked until he was 80 and he did a lot of great pieces. Why don't we take a look at some of the slides? Okay. So there he is with the model, but so I just wanted to show you what the Lincoln Memorial might have looked like. Clark Mills, who did a life mask of Lincoln a couple of months before he died, proposed this statue and you see where it was to be located. And a Lincoln enthroned with equestrians beneath and identifiable war heroes. Congress never really got the money together. Vinnie Rehm's sculpture is here in Washington, you know, in the U.S. Capitol. Thomas Ball, controversial then, controversial now, either lifting up or meeting a kneeling slave. French studied under Thomas Ball in Florence, so he would have seen this model and known of that work. And this is, of course, the St. Godin's in Chicago from 1887, unveiled by Abraham Lincoln's grandson. He can't do much better than that. Here's the minute man and here's Daniel Chester French when he goes off to Florence and adopts a kind of Bohemian toad there. And this is the Nebraska, the Lincoln Nebraska. And this is a French appointed, when he's appointed by William Howard Taft to head the First National Commission of Fine Arts, whose job is to complete the National Mall and hire the sculptors. The only problem is he doesn't want to leave when he gets the job for the Lincoln Memorial. He doesn't seem to recognize there's a conflict, but he does eventually leave. I think you, Washingtonians, will be interested in this. The Lincoln Memorial site was a matter of a lot of controversy. We all take it for granted that it's where it is in the mall. There was more controversy about where to put it than who should sculpt it and who should design it. One of the suggestions was Union Station. I love this shot because it's obviously not much around it as it's being built. Another suggestion is that it'd be where the shady statue of Grant is at the foot of Capitol Hill. The soldier's home was chosen as an alternative. The Naval Observatory on E Street, I thought it was appropriate to have a distant shot for an observatory as if it was taken from another observatory. I'm not even sure I've ever been to Meridian Hill Park. Not too far from Howard. It has a statue of James Buchanan, so it's not exactly appropriate. This is the area that was under consideration as well, West Potomac Park. It was a swamp at that point. This is Uncle Joe Cannon, the Nancy Pelosi of his day. The fierce speaker of the house. He had seen Lincoln in the flesh. He said, I will never let a sculpture of Abraham Lincoln, a memorial to Abraham Lincoln, be built in that goddamn swamp. He threatened to use his weight to locate it at Arlington in the Confederacy. There were lots of other choices being bandied about. Halfway between here and Gettysburg, Wendy would have liked that a shorter trip. Halfway in the contiguous center of the United States, wherever the actual center of the United States is. This is Henry Bacon, the young man who designed the memorial and who was beholden to French and hired French. Of course, he immediately, he did not compete. Really, he was assigned it. And the Greek temple, Parthenon-like temple, was his idea. And then it begins. What about the Mills Project? There are other projects before this one, so could you tell us a little bit about that earlier project that didn't quite make it? The problem with all of the early projects is that no one could agree on the design. No one really could agree on the site. And then once Democratic Congresses began coming in, they wouldn't appropriate the money for a statue to Lincoln. The Democrats are by and large blocks built by Southern Democrats. And they did not want a national memorial to Abraham Lincoln. And not until there was a Republican House and Senate in the Roosevelt era, Teddy Roosevelt, was there actually an appropriation to do this. And it's only like $100,000 for everything. And it still was very tough to get through. So they were dealing with this for almost 40 years before anyone could decide and could finance it. And then when they did it oddly enough, after all of that drama, after all of that indecision, Henry Bacon is the one and only guy who's chosen as architect. And Bacon makes sure his senior friend, Daniel Chester French, gets the commission. This is the most coveted commission in American sculpture up to that point. There are people who want to do it. I found a letter from our friend Vinny Rean, who was by then older, married, but still sculpting. And she said, I'd like to be considered. I don't know what that letter is in the archives, by the way. A little shout out to the archives, which has a fantastic collection relative to the National Commission. This photo is from the archives, by the way. That's up there now of the construction. Guts and burglar was hoping to do it. And he had already crafted a head that ultimately he used for Mount Rushmore. But there really wasn't much discussion of it. Once they got the money, it was Bacon and French. And so how much did it cost to build it? It's hard to find an exact accounting. Yeah, I wonder why. So $50,000 was the cost of the sculpture. But in the middle of the project, French came down to look at this building. I'll show you just a couple of more iterations as it grows before you. Again, these are all from the archives. So when the atrium is done, well, French goes down to look at it and says, A, I'm not going to do bronze, one of the choices because the pink marble in here is just beautiful. It calls out for white marble for contrast. But B, I've been contracted to do a 12-foot sculpture and it's going to be lost in this building. And he decided he had to do a 19-foot sculpture, which would have added about 35% to the sculpture budget. Another $25,000 or $30,000, which was a lot. And they said no. So French designed a head that was in proportion to a 19-foot sculpture. He brought it down to D.C. He had it hoisted in the atrium by ropes to the position it would be in. And then he called in Robert Lincoln and others to look at it. And they all said, well, this is perfect. It can't be anything other than this. And that's how he got the supplemental appropriation. I don't know what the building cost, frankly. It's hard to find the accounting, but it did encounter a lot of problems. They built it on marshland. And you and I have been in the undercroft, the basement area, which is taller than the memorial is above ground. It is huge and it's got gigantic pillars. And the bottom of it is sort of just mud. Exactly. Very uneven. And it began to sink as soon as the weight was built on top. The first steps cracked, the atrium cracked. So it settled. And that, again, cost extra money. And then I am an advisor now to a project that David Rubenstein is sponsoring to create a public space in this undercroft. So at some point it will happen. And there will be a visitor center, a bookstore, restrooms, which visitors will appreciate. And it will be a public space that will be very popular. Because a lot of workers left graffiti down there. Some of it suitable for families. Some not so. And it has just a strange aroma. It's dank down there. But if it's 90 degrees outside, it's cool downstairs. If it's freezing upstairs, it's warm downstairs. It's like a cave. It's an extraordinary place. It will be wonderful. Let's talk a little bit about the dedication. Can I get up to that in the slides? Quickly, this is just some of the research that French turned to photographs of Lincoln life mask. You see he put nails in it to do measurements. That's how these guys work. Lincoln's hands, French's own hands. This is his first model. See the feet are a little different, a little larger. And then you see the model that he produced for carving. And this is the head that I talked about. It's now preserved in the New York Historical Society with a label that doesn't tell the full story. I beg them to explain it. Just a shout out to these guys. Immigrants from Italy. The Pichirilli brothers. They had a gigantic studio right near where Yankee Stadium is in the Bronx. They were French's marble cutters of choice. And they carved the Lincoln Memorial from his specifications. So, you know, Daniel Chester French was not Michelangelo. He didn't sit with a block of marble and do the chipping away. At this point in the history of art and the creation of art, he did a clay model. He supervised its translation into plaster. He enlarged it successively. And when he felt he had a suitable model that these kinds of guys could do, he would bring the model up to the Bronx as he did and they took over. And he would visit once a week and polish things and tell them what they were doing right and wrong. So why don't they get some of the credit for the creation? They will in the new, in the undercrawl. Because French was the celebrity. You know, you're right. They whited the marble cutters in Georgia who were basically enslaved people. They were prisoners on work. They are going to get credit too in Washington. And I think they have in another area of the city of the district. And here they are working on the head. Okay, now we're going to get to the dedication. Here's the dedication day. Here's Dan French on the left and Henry Bacon on the right. Installing the statue on the site. Little by little. They're both standing in front of it now. French who's now in his 70s would climb up those two ladders to polish stuff off on the final piece. And here's Memorial Day 1922. The crowd begins to arrive. Robert Lincoln comes. And now we get to the ceremony. And so what's interesting about the beginning of your book is that you start with the dedication. And you start with the fact that this sculpture, this memorial actually that's supposed to symbolize inclusiveness actually expresses exclusiveness or a segregation of the races at the actual dedication. Why don't you describe that for us. One of the things that is overlooked now is that this statue, this memorial is dedicated to sectional reconciliation, not racial reconciliation. That meaning was only derived 15 years after its dedication. So that's the first given. This is supposed to be, you know, it's tilted to face the south, all this stuff. So when I did the book, I read a wonderful study and I read newspaper accounts of the dedication both in the white press and the African-American press. The crisis, the New York age and other newspapers. And there are two different stories. One is of a great event with 75,000 people, one of the great days in American history. But the black press tells a different story because members of the African-American community came early to this event feeling a great kinship to Abraham Lincoln and got what they hoped would be great seats for the event. Well, after a couple of hours in the seats, they were rousted out of the seats by mounted police, many of them Southern born, many of them using the n-word and other epithets to get them out and move to the back right about where the reflecting pool is on backless benches. Some members of the community stayed, others did not, including a man whose name I've forgotten, but he was the first African-American Rhodes scholar. Elaine Locke. Professor at Howard University. He said, I'm not staying. And he walked out. I think this is, okay, this is the other part of the story. So that's one part of the ugliness of this day. And that's, you know, why I started it that way. I think a flawed dedication on this scale should be the lead. So I started with the ceremony and the two different ways of looking at it. The two blind, you know, the white press is blind to the outrage here. So this is Robert Russell Moten. He is the principal of the Tuskegee Institute, Booker T. Washington's successor. And I guess a safe choice for white America to choose, a conservative African-American leader, as was Washington, to quote represent his race at the dedication. And unlike the white speakers of the day, he was required to submit his text in advance to the planners, to the Lincoln Commission and to the Harding White House, Warren Harding White House. Well, in his text, he wrote rather boldly for him, I thought, until there is true equal opportunity in this country, then we cannot say that the Lincoln's work is finished. His unfinished work is still unfinished, and this sculpture is a hollow mockery. So the Harding people said to him, well, you can't say this. And he said, well, you know, that's what I'm saying. And they said, well, you can either cut it or you can retire from the proceedings. So he decided it was more important to be part of the ceremony and he deleted all the censored passages from his speech. So members of the African-American community and the public at large did not know this. But that was, the speech was not published in full until, I think, the Moten papers were released. And Edna and I were there when, for the 75th anniversary of the actual event, when we were members of the Lincoln Bicentennial Commission, we invited the current president of the principle of Tuskegee Institute to read the full speech belatedly, very belatedly. So it was a very counterintuitive, brutal dedication. And we don't realize that this was what the Lincoln Memorial was until the late 1930s. But again, it was a symbol of, and the white speakers that day, Taft, Harding, Edwin Markham, the poet, were all talked about the restored relations between North and South. Oh, I think I left out one detail of the story because it's probably too horrible to recall, but I should. The spaces that the African-American, the early arrival African-American visitors had occupied were then taken by Confederate veterans wearing their uniforms. So it's pretty brutal. Absolutely. But that was America at that time. 1922. Absolutely. And it's interesting because Harding, I don't know, this is a segue, but Harding had a sort of a mixed record on race. And his wife, who's otherwise best known as a suspect in his early death, was actually interested in civil rights. It's unusual in the 20s. But again, the Republican Party was more interested in opportunity for African-Americans in the early 20s than the Democrats. And you do have that change over by the 1930s when African-Americans do abandon the Republican Party and move to the Democratic Party because of the kinds of things that the Republican Party is doing at the time. Exactly. And Roosevelt's very forceful push for the African-American vote. Yes, absolutely. But also Taft, who is the chairman of this, the emcee, he had continued TR's sort of cautious outreach to the African-American community. Wilson overturned the integration of the federal bureaucracy that Taft had sustained. So it's just a bizarre event and just unspeakable and inexplicable in many ways. But the memorial changes in a few years by the late 1930s. An event occurs that really does give that memorial a different kind of feel, especially to people of color. I think I have the picture. Well, that's just it. There it is. And I feel so privileged that I work these days in Franklin and Eleanor Roosevelt's home in New York City. The house that they occupied until they left for Washington for the inauguration. So in 1939, as I'm sure many of you know, Marion Anderson was scheduled to sing at Constitution Hall at the headquarters of the Daughters of the American Revolution up near the White House. And the D.A.R. said, that's not happening. This is 1939. We don't have African-Americans in the D.A.R. Hall. Eleanor Roosevelt interceded. And she called Harold Ickes, the secretary of the interior, and they arranged for Marion Anderson to sing not for 700 people, but to sing for 75,000 people. Who came to the Lincoln Memorial, it was Eleanor's idea, sing at the Lincoln Memorial on a rainy Easter Sunday in 1939. And millions more heard her on the radio singing My Country Tis of Thee and Nobody Knows the Trouble I've Seen and Other. It was a brief concert. It's on YouTube. If you want to hear a voice beyond belief, that concert is scratchily immortalized on YouTube. So overnight, the memorial becomes a totally different place. The statue bears a totally different meaning. Instead of celebrating reunification under the terms of the 19-teens and 20s, it becomes the backdrop for national aspiration. And then I think it also helped by, I have to give a little credit to Jimmy Stewart and Frank Capra, because that same year Mr. Smith goes to Washington, comes out. And where does this idealistic senator go for inspiration? He goes to the Lincoln Memorial where a child reads the words of the Gettysburg address that are inscribed there and where reaction shots show children, old people, and an African-American man. Listening. And Capra was told not to include a person of color in the scene because then the film would not be distributable in the south. This is 1939, but he did it anyway. And that reaction shot also helps change the image of the Lincoln Memorial. And of course, lots of people are introduced to the power of that memorial as a consequence of the march on Washington and 60s. I mean, these events are, of course, here's one event that I found out about after I wrote the book. But in 1947, Harry Truman, descendant of Confederate veterans, spoke at the final meeting of the NAACP in the final day of the NAACP conference in Washington. This is 1947. And the speech is at the Lincoln Memorial. And I don't know if you see her back there, but her head is turned away. In the front row on the right is Eleanor Roosevelt watching him. And a few months after this speech, Truman did something that even Roosevelt didn't do, which is integrate the American military. And he gave a really good speech that day. If you read the text, it's a speech about tolerance and about equal opportunity. And of course, this is the famous day of the march on Washington. And you may see some familiar faces here. A Philip Randolph in the center, Roy Wilkins on the right. And that young man in the center, that handsome young man in the center is the great John Lewis. See him right here? And of course, this is the day that Dr. King brought yet another layer of meaning and aspiration. He spoke directly about the Emancipation Proclamation and the memorial in his speech as we stand in the shadow of this memorial where 100 years ago, et cetera. So I found so many interesting visitors. Fidel Castro came to visit the Lincoln Memorial. Does anybody remember the day that Richard Nixon decided to go meet war protesters at the Lincoln Memorial? This is not a Photoshop picture. That is, Nixon meeting a hippie. And then it's the backdrop for, you know, it's sort of now a tradition that the president-elect on his last night as president-elect goes to the Lincoln Memorial for some sort of ceremony. So you see it's become a tradition. No, that has nothing to do with Trump. I have that later. This is Maldon's famous cartoon of, again, it's the Lincoln Memorial evolving into a symbol of national moment and national feeling. This is November 23, 1963. This is the Lincoln Memorial in representational mourning for all of us at the death of John Kennedy. And I found at least 10 fist bump cartoons from Election Day 2008, the Lincoln Memorial meeting Barack Obama. And I have been asked, is there a Lincoln Memorial cartoon about Election Day 2016? And there is. I think it's just a surprise. So that's most of my pictures. This is French's last visit to the memorial in about 1930. Great. Well, we're going to give you a chance to ask some questions. So please come to the microphones on each side. Yes. Thank you so much for being here today. I'm a college student here in the Washington, D.C. area. And I've been interested in history and Abraham Lincoln for several years. One thing that I was wondering is, do you know if Daniel Chester French's parents and family were involved in anti-slavery activities? I would say they were living in an abolitionist town. They were anti-slavery. They were involved. The judge was involved in a couple of defenses of, quote, runaways in their time. But again, it was kind of an insulated ethereal community. But you know, they were in a community with Emerson. They knew garrison. So those were their pals. And they were, if not activists in the movement, they were friends of movement leaders. But like, I would think like many abolitionists, they might have believed in freedom for African-Americans, but did not necessarily believe, or did not necessarily see African-Americans in the same light that they would. They're friends next door. Right. Because I'm reminded of the passage in your book where you're talking about French's wife, Mary, who, when she's talking about what it was like living in Washington in the post-Civil War era, she referred to African-Americans as darkies. Right. And said some rather disparaging things about them. Right. So Mary, the wife was a Washingtonian, which meant that she was living in, you know, sort of the Southern society. Right. Dan was New Englander through and through. Again, not to say he knew people of color. Like many abolitionists, the theoretical belief in freedom and opportunity was there, but they didn't know people of color. Right. The people of color that Dan knew in later years were people who worked for him. And, you know, the separate but equal culture was probably what he would have been most comfortable with. Yeah. Exactly. Yes. In the early part of your presentation, you were showing pictures of concept drawings or studies for what the monument was going to look like, and you mentioned that it took on the appearance of the Parthenon. Was there a reason why he went in ancient Greek references and something so large where several of the studies you showed were more, well, some cases or innate, but they were smaller in footprint? So I think Bacon chose the Greek style. A, because he believed it was appropriate to symbolize democracy in its purest aspirational form. And I think because he also thought that that style, that Parthenon-like style, with columns and an open entrance would welcome the appearance of a god inside, as there had been a god inside the original Parthenon. And in this case it would be American deity Abraham Lincoln. And I think they had a very harmonious conception of what the result would be, the Greek influence, but also, you know, little nods to American history, 36 of those giant pillars around the memorial that would represent the 36 states of the Reunited States in 1865. The names of all the states, the murals, the words of the Gettysburg address. So there was a certain harmony, but I think it begins with the, you know, Greek democracy in its purest and original form. The Park Service usually points out that the eyes of Lincoln and the eyes of Grant are actually the same height, so they look directly into each other's eyes. Was that a French thing or the Grant sculpture dude thing? Or a National Park Service thing. And also when you say $75,000, that's not what he was paid. That's the cost of the sculpture or what? In all of French's commissions, he kept really good record books, but I think they're a little bit like the financial statements that candidates issue. It's very hard to figure out what he's, yes, he is paying his contractors. So out of his $75,000, he pays the pictureillies. He pays his staff, his molders, his plaster people, and how much of that he gets to keep, he keeps as much as he can. So it's hard to find what his net was.  And, you know, it was dedicated around the same time as the Lincoln Memorial, but with much less fanfare. I think it's a coincidence and it's almost like the urban legend. And I'm amazed that nobody's asked this yet. I hope it's not your question. Oh, it is? Okay. You ask. I was going to ask a question about another body part of the statue, the sculpture being the hands. There are a lot of stories. What is the true story? Okay. So I'm sorry, I inhibited, I ruined the question. So apparently, Lincoln's hands, as they sit, if you look at his fingers a certain way, it spells out A-L in sign language. And the question remains, or lingers, did Daniel Chester French do that intentionally? Being the sculptor of Gallaudet, would he have been doing sort of an homage to himself and to his one-time patron, the Gallaudet family? I don't see any evidence of it at all. It's too much based on the actual plaster cast of Lincoln's own hands that are the reference point for every sculptor who ever did a statue of Abraham Lincoln. And I take everyone at their word, being not a person who is familiar with sign language, that it miraculously spells A-L. But I don't think it's another one of those urban legends. So we have no additional questions? Well, let me just remind you on the title of the book. It's Monument Man, the Life and Art of Daniel Chester French on sale at your local bookstores and here at the National Archives. And Harold will be taking the time to sign your copies if you would like. So if we don't have any other questions, and Harold, you have no additional comments? I'm just happy that the book is actually being published next week. And it couldn't be more appropriate to preview it anywhere than here in Washington and with such a dear friend as you. Thank you. Thank you for inviting me. Thank you.


Can you do yellow and silver for my two-year-old son?  All right. I got this one for you We got yellow silver. I'm just a little bit of blue just for that heart that you sense and so this one's for you, buddy Stay strong. Here we go Buddy you got this. Stay strong man. Hope you like it


In July, the Joint Committee on Vaccination and Immunisation, or JCVI, recommended that children over the age of 12 should only be vaccinated if they were extremely vulnerable, for example if they already had a serious illness or condition. Most children and young people don't suffer a severe illness if they contract COVID-19. The JCVI had initially cited concerns about an inflammatory heart condition linked to the Pfizer-BioNTech jab. Even so, it later amended its recommendations to state that 16 and 17-year-olds should be routinely offered the vaccine. But things change quickly and it's looking more and more likely that 12-year-olds in the UK will now be vaccinated. Many risks will apparently be ignored just as they are ignored for adults. Some countries such as the US, Israel, France and Germany have already recommended the vaccine for all children over 12. In the UK, the Medicines and Healthcare Products Regulatory Agency, the MHRA, has already approved the vaccine for over 12. So where are we now? As it stands, all 16 and 17-year-olds in the UK are being offered the vaccine. It is recommended for 12 to 15-year-olds if they are at high risk. These risks include severe neuro-disability which could include cerebral palsy, autism or epilepsy, Down syndrome, a severely weakened immune system including some children with cancer or profound and multiple learning difficulties. Children aged 12 to 15 can also have the vaccine if they live with a vulnerable adult. The vaccines so far authorised for distribution to children are Pfizer, BioNTech and Moderna. So only at risk 12-year-olds are currently being jumped but that's about to change. NHS England has been told to prepare a plan to vaccinate all 12 to 15-year-olds in the country. According to the BBC, the JCVI is weighing up the arguments on whether such a move should be made in the UK. Experts are assessing the risks and benefits to children of vaccination and how much it might slow the wider spread of the virus. One JCVI member, Professor Adam Finn, told Sky News that the committee was taking a very cautious approach. Elsewhere in the news, this is happening. There is already talk of trying to prevent disruption in schools. The government always pretends to be solving a problem. A problem it has usually created. Sage, the scientific advisory group for emergencies that advises the government, says it is difficult to work out whether schools are driving rises in Covid and warns of more serious consequences for parents or carers if they are. We know what's happening here. We're being prepared for the compulsory vaccination of children. First, the government creates alarm. Children are spreading the virus. Healthy children pose a risk to children with medical conditions. Schools will be disrupted unless we do something to prevent it. This is the preparation period. Secondly, the government tries to appear as though it's avoiding the very thing it's preparing us for. For example, we're being told that risks and benefits are being weighed. It allows us to believe that the state is moving slowly. This is an illusion. The government knows what it wants to do. It knows this from the outset. Thirdly, compulsory vaccination for children. If parents object, they'll be demonised. They'll be treated as irresponsible and selfish, much like those who reject the vaccine generally or who don't want to wear a mask. As for parental consent, have a look at this NHS England document. This is actually quite clear. Twelve-year-olds will be allowed to consent to their own vaccination. This is ripe for abuse, for manipulation and for the avoidance of parental consent. The power of government has been demonstrated time and again since the COVID crisis began. You know the examples. We've been locked in our homes. The police have threatened to rummage through our shop and trolleys. We've been ordered not to speak to our neighbours, told to stay out of our own gardens. It's the stuff of nightmares. We've been lied to and lied to. We won't need vaccine passports. We will need vaccine passports. It's now a familiar path. Crisis, apparent hesitation by the government to impose draconian rules, then the imposition of draconian rules. Now it's looking very much like compulsory vaccination for children. It's coming. We all know it. This is a whole new level of power by the state. A whole new level of coercion. Parents' authority over children is being severely compromised. This authority is being seized by the state, just like in any good communist country. We know where this is heading. It's heading to enslavement. It's no less serious than that. We will live our lives at the full control of incompetent and inept politicians. The tide will turn, though. I believe that. There is only so much we will take until a viable alternative begins to take shape. For Britain is that alternative. We'll never bow down to this bullying. We will all have to take back control of our lives at some point. So let's make sure we do it sooner rather than later. Join For Britain and let's start turning that tide today. Thank you for watching. If you would like to stay updated with all of our latest videos, please like the video below and subscribe to our channel. As you probably know, For Britain is shadow-bound on most social media. So it's really important to like and share our videos in order to get our message out. Thanks again for helping us to fight back. Thanks again for helping us to bring back Britain.