Good evening, everyone, and welcome back to DMTV. Thank you for tuning back in to your loyal lockdown companions. Thank you for joining us from wherever you're joining us. Like you'll see today's episode is all about redefining who should be interested in the European project, all about completely disregarding borders. Both those in our minds and also those drawn on pieces of paper like the one behind me. DMTV has been and has tried to be your companion through the lockdown. We have tried to bring to you interesting perspectives that inform very much the kind of politics that drives our political movement, DM25, the democracy in Europe movement. Also, especially through our second season and this segment called Faces of DM, we've also tried to zoom into the less well-known stories, the stories of the activists, the stories of the volunteers of normal members who came across DM at one point or another, were inspired by the message, were inspired by the politics, were inspired by what we were trying to do and joined us. And then just join us the way you sign up a petition to, I don't know, save pandas, but got engaged with the project and became volunteers, got active, got to the streets, reached out to other people, and Faces of DM is all about meeting these people, getting to know them, understanding why they've done what they've done, and how it's instructed their own lives and why they remain engaged with the DM project. If today's show is interesting to you, and indeed if you've watched previous shows and you've thought them quite engaging, you might want to check out Everything Must Change, which is a book. It's a book, essentially a transcript from some of our most famous and well-viewed shows from DMTV, the first season. It includes transcripts from interviews with the likes of Noam Chomsky, Slavoj Žižek, and many, many others, the kind of conversations that we had about the pandemic, what it means for Europe, what it means for the world, and what it means for all of us. It's published by OR Books, that is OR Books, and hopefully there will be a link in the chat on YouTube for all of you to check out. So keep an eye out for that. If you want more of this interesting content, also don't forget to subscribe to our channel so that you get an update every time we're planning something fresh and interesting, like hopefully today's show. So without further ado, let's get right into it. I'll introduce our first member for the evening, our first face of DM, if you like. Her name is Cassie Callan. She's an American, she's an actress, a singer, an interior designer, a salesperson. She currently lives in France, and she's done a bit of everything. You name it, she's done it. Welcome Cassie. Hi there. Hi. And our second member for the evening is Ciro Fajenza. He's an Italian American. He currently lives in Boston, United States of America. He's also lived in Italy for a few years of his life. He is working on diversity consulting, and he is also a member of the International Committee of the DSA, the Democrat Socialist in America. So Ciro, welcome. There we are. And here you have the faces for the evening. Cassie and Ciro, thank you both for being here with us. Right. Let's get right into it. We promised people that we'll be discussing what it is that got you involved in DM in the first place. What is especially interesting about both of your stories is that in your case, Cassie, you are an American living in France. And in your case, Ciro, you're an European American living in the United States. So I think we should probably start the conversation. Let's start with Cassie. With you telling us what it was that got you interested in DM 25 in the first place. Okay, well, the first thing I have to say is I followed Yanis Barapakis when he was a finance minister of Greece and suffered the horrors. And I was so amazed at his courage and his strength of purpose. And really, I mean, on one level, he was tilting at windmills. And at the other level, he was really doing everyone's job that we need to do. So I that's the first thing that interested me when he started DM. I joined when I when I when I could. And and one of the things that that interested me was that it was a transnational movement. And this to me is absolutely right for the time. If there was ever a time to be open and into all the countries and knowing what's going on because we can. So I was very excited about that. And that's one of the main reasons I joined. Thank you very much, Cassie. Ciro, let's go over to you. First of all, tell us were you in Europe or in the States when you when you first heard about DM? I was in Europe. You're in Europe. Okay. And I was watching not necessarily Varoufakis, but but the situation in Greece, which was a real. It wasn't traumatic, but it was it was kind of a wake up call to me about the the state of affairs. And with Varoufakis, what I virtually every time I heard about a maneuver on his part, it was something it was kind of a leftist take or or technique that I had not heard of before or had not imagined before. And and then shortly after he announced the formation of DM, it was sort of the same thing I kept seeing and hearing proposals and and techniques that despite being a leftist for a long time, I had not heard. And it was exciting to me. So it was easy for me to join. Right. But joining is is one thing, you know, it's it's one thing to see DM to say, okay, these people make sense. I like what they're saying. I want to I'm going to support them. I'm going to sign up to DM 25. And it's another taking that step.  For you, Chiro, what was that like? How did you get engaged? Well, the the setup of DM is very, I mean, it's easy to say that that all of these movements have our grassroots or ground up or democratic, but DM's commitment to democracy was it was not just, you know, commendable or good or laudable, I found that it actually encouraged me to engage. And, you know, once I once it became clear that I had that it was reasonable or necessary for me to look at, for example, our proposals, because I could have a say in them, I started doing that. And, and it made me feel much more part of the movement. And then when things happened, when when DM organized in various places in Rome for the anniversary of the signing of the treaty, or in Berlin for the anniversary of the moment at the Volksbühne or in Hamburg at the G20, I felt like there was a purpose for me to be there, that I could do something useful that I was not just a I was not just giving my approval to DM's activities, but providing my labor. Yeah, and the labor that is, like we said from the beginning, transnational by definition, you know, you signed up in Italy. And before you know it, you're in Berlin, and you're in Hamburg, and you realize that that fight, which is the same, whether you're in Italy or somewhere else, takes you all over Europe, because we are all facing exactly the same struggles and the source of those struggles, you know, the European oligarchy, the political establishment, the way Brussels is run. That's something that connects us across the entire continent. Even, one could argue, whether one is a member of a citizen of a member of the European Union or not, Cassie looking at you. So you're in France, right? Tell us a bit more about that. What is it like being a member, actively a member of the in France and not being a European citizen of it? Well, of course, I can't vote here, which is unusual, I'm used to voting, but really, when I first joined DM, I just watched what was going on, and I didn't really get deeply involved. But I teach English, and I teach English in a very small niche market. I basically teach professional people who are adults who already speak English fairly well, but need real coaching. And as I got to know my students, I got to know their children, and I got to understand what was happening in France, like from a very, very visceral, personal position. And when I saw that my students' children who were grown, who had three master's degrees, could not get a job in France, that really, really struck me, that struck home. And I wanted to do something about it, I didn't know what to do. And then, of course, I still teach now, and I've continued all along. But I also got involved with the Gilles Jean because I watched them struggle. And I began to realize that there are things happening in this country. It's not a panacea. I mean, everyone thinks, oh, you're living the dream, you're in the South of France. Well, no, it's not really like that. People really struggle. I know people who work every day of the week. They just struggle and struggle to put food on the table. It's very hard. So I really wanted to be a part of a movement that has their hands helping people, truly helping people. Because that's the kind of movement structure that I'm used to in the United States, being right in the thick of it. My mother organized a rent strike, for instance, when I was 12 on the Lower East Side of Manhattan. So I know a lot about this kind of thing and getting to know many different kinds of people. And this is, I think, one of the most important things is to realize how many different people we have and how we can really bridge the gap and create a form of communication that is based on the universal. And that's something that I teach in my English and I work with all the time. You've touched on a number of things that we'll come back to, both this idea of the universal and how to reach out to people, how to connect with people, especially when it's about politics, which is an incredibly stigmatized thing. The moment you open your mouth and start talking about politics, people will put you in a box depending on what their predisposition is towards politics.  It's very difficult to cross those boxes. And being part of a political movement is all about going across those boxes. If you just end up talking to yourself or to people who already agree with you, you're not really achieving much. We'll come back to that point. But political movements are not a new thing, obviously. They've been around for a while and especially in the United States, there's a long, honored, I would say, political tradition around political movements that have achieved a lot, both for the country, but also often for setting, if you like, the political pace for a lot of change beyond the United States. Ciro, tell us a bit about that political culture, if you like, from your perspective. What is it like being in a political movement in the US? And how does that compare, if you like, with your experience with the M25? Well, it's an interesting time now because the American politics has survived for, well, if we think of other sister democracies that are, in quotes, democracies that are structured like the United States, they very quickly are often turned into military dictatorships, presidential versus parliamentary system. And the only reason that has not happened in the United States as far as anyone can tell now is entirely because of tradition and norms, which have now been revealed by Trump's presidency to be only paper thin and only custom. And when I think about movements now in the United States, I'm thinking about groups of people who are continuing a very old tradition that was more or less built around this same set of norms. And I think that these movements are now trying to adjust to that. There are disagreements among leftists always. But in the United States, there are at least, there seem to me to be some key divisions between that that can very quickly lead to argument because of this change in the environment, in particular how one relates to elected officials. What is the movement's responsibility to an official who is at least in name on your side? And it's difficult to navigate. I'm seeing a lot of people that are should not be at each other's throats at each other's throats. And it's, as a result movements now, every conversation I have with American leftists, everyone is careful. They're careful of everything. And it's probably it will change eventually. But right now that's how it feels to me. Yeah, it, you know, if you're not being attacked from all sides, how do you know you're in the left, you know, it's, it's very often the case that we are our own worst critics. And I think that also comes across in the language that we use, we end up writing or we end up speaking in a certain way, more to guard ourselves against attacks from fellow leftists, than we do in order to communicate with people outside of our bubble. And that often means that we end up creating echo chambers, you know, we're just talking to ourselves, because if people don't understand what we're saying, because of the lingo that we use, you know, the proletariat and you know, I'm not going to go into it now. But if we don't use that kind of language, or if we do end up using that kind of language, people might end up not understanding what we're talking about. That's the worst that's going to happen. If we don't use it, the worst thing that could happen is a fellow leftist will call us anything from populists and over simplifying the message to outright traitors to the cause, you know, because we oversimplify it, because we belittle people's struggle, whatever have you, you know. And as a result, we really end up tying ourselves up in a knot. And it doesn't make reaching out to people quite difficult. Cassie, would you like to either touch on what I've just said, or further elaborate on what Ciro said regarding political movements in the States? Well, I'd like to talk a little bit about the history of political movements in the States, because I think it's really important to see how they've morphed. For instance, in the 60s, when I was extremely active, I was young, but I was very active in the 60s, there was a very strange coalition suddenly forming in the 60s. We had the Black Panthers, we had the Patriots who were white Southern people, and then we had the Young Lords, and they came together in Chicago to form a coalition of the complete unlikely on the left to help local communities, especially a local community in North Chicago, I believe it was North Chicago, where Mayor Daley was trying to gentrify the area, and suddenly the Patriots who were these white fellows who came from, I don't remember what state, Tennessee I think. Well, they were in a church meeting, and suddenly they were with a Black Panther, and most Americans still view the Black Panthers as dangerous, but here's what's happened. What's happened is that we had a lot of press or propaganda told to us, and actually what's been revealed is the Black Panthers were not trying to kill people, they did arm themselves, but they really supported communities, they were totally community based, and this I think has been the best part of American movements is staying within the communities or going into different communities with each other together, and this is why I talk about the universal way of communicating, because when you get people as unlikely as Black Panthers, Puerto Rican Young Lords, and white Patriots, and they are doing the same thing, they see the common good, and one of the things that just happened, just in the news recently, was a comedian named Jimmy Dorr had a Boogaloo Boy on his program, and all the left had a nervous breakdown about it, and the thing is, all the man was trying to do, and he didn't ask pointy questions, he just let this young man speak, and he was speaking at a rally in Michigan, but he said basically, look, we want to reach out to the left, we are not killers and thugs, we are not trying to hurt you, we're trying to support the community, and he was for gay rights, he was against bigotry, he was, yes he was pro-gun, but he still encompassed all the things that really hold communities together, community values, and that's what Jimmy Dorr was trying to present to the left, and the left went, oh no, oh no, this is a right-wing thug, and this is what happened to the Black Panthers, they were considered thugs, because they were black and they were scary, they held arms, okay, we are afraid of guns, and yet we are the most gun-ridden society in the world, so that's really all I have to say. Yeah, yeah, often it's less about the gun, more about who's holding the gun, and that's, you know. Yes, they were protecting, actually this Boogaloo boy, he said, he was protecting Black Lives Matter movement in the, because they were being attacked by the police, and so now, you know, how true it is, how untrue, I don't know, I mean, Jimmy bedded him, he said he did, so okay, I'll go with it, but the reality is we really have to, as leftists, broaden our communication with each other and be much more tolerant of differences, and much more involved in helping each other in each other's communities, really, really communicating clearly and safely, we don't have to harm each other if we disagree, the most important thing, I mean, you can make a best friend out of an enemy if you try, if you think about it, you can do that, it's a choice, it's a choice. Yeah, and more than just the language that we use, it's also instructed by, and I don't think this is just a left shortcoming, I think it's a human shortcoming, which is this sense of self-righteousness, you know, of our cause is the right cause, and people who don't agree with our cause are either uneducated and need to be educated further, and once they are educated, the way we are educated, they will simply agree with us, you know, this kind of patronizing approach, or if they're supporting somebody who we can't even fathom supporting ourselves, then they're inherently evil, you know, this idea that anybody who voted for Trump is a racist, anybody who voted for Trump is a white supremacist, and when you start going down this road, you end up alienating a huge part of the people that you should be talking to who are being driven for all these reasons, both the language and because of your fairly patronizing approach to the other side. So based on what we've said about, you know, the American approach to political movements, let's say, let's go back to you, Ciro, with this one, do you feel there are certain things that DM25 could learn from, you know, God forbid, a European learning something from an American, you know, but you know, if, I don't know, you can conceive of something that people in the States are better than us over here on this side of the pond, do you tell us? Well, I think that the commitment that American movements have to, I don't want to say working class, but the European left traditions involve a lot of, have long intellectual histories, and in the United States it's much more common that a movement proceed even without needing a connection to these intellectual histories. I don't need to be, to have red marks or to have to know who Gramsci is to say the rent is too high. I mean, and this is something that Americans do very easily. And I think that in Europe, there are at least in Italy, I can't speak about Europe, but I can speak about Italy. There are camps, there are intellectual camps that people will fall into, and at some point the camps cease to function in a practical way, whereas Americans will very easily gravitate toward slogans like the rent is too damn high, let's put food on the damn table, these kinds of things. Bernie Sanders' appeal, I think, was the fact that his message was unflappable and hard to argue with. People are in terrible pain and we should stop it, regardless of what is our intellectual approach to that problem. We acknowledge the problem and we must solve it. And I would like to see more evidence of that on the European side, more willingness to abandon what is unnecessary in a moment of action, just to proceed. Yeah, thank you very much for that. What's that Monty Python from the life of Brian, the people's front of Judea, the Judean people's front, and there's a lot of that in the left in Europe, where a supporter of Lenin Marxist or Marxist Leninist or whatever have you, and it often this obsession with scripture and dogma and this is the truth and your political analysis is not as thorough and engages mind and how that actually translates into political change and into gaining political capital and leverage in society so that you can change things in coordinates with your scripture. It's no surprise that the left in Europe has largely become a urban intellectual project and has kind of lost its touch a little bit with the working class. I think it's largely because of this, not to oversimplify, we're painting with very broad strokes now, but I think it's an element of this issue. We've touched on a couple more already. Cassie, anything else from your side? Anything else you feel the Europe in general could be learning from the American approach to political movements? Well, I'm going to say something a little strange, but I once in a Zoom said that it might be a good idea for the left to get rid of or to not adhere so much to its European traditions, its French traditions, I was on a French call, and to just broaden itself and think of different ways to approach the problems that you are trying to address. Again, that comes from, as Chiro pointed out, I'd say a little bit more of a pragmatic and less intellectual point of view when it comes to putting food on the table and just getting a job or having enough to pay the rent or the heat. It's just basic stuff like that, and a lot of the organic movements that grew up in the United States were basically like that. They were about communities and getting solvent and getting out from under, being oppressed to such a degree that they couldn't do anything. They formed organically in different places. I don't think that they were as nationalized as some of these movements are in Europe, but I'm not really sure entirely about Europe. Thanks, Cassie. Let's go the other way around. Let's look at and through DM, look at the States. DM 25, the way it's been not necessarily from its very conception, although I would personally argue that's from its conception, but definitely in a way that it's developed. It's a political project that tries to reinvent political movements. It doesn't try to just recreate yet another one in the European context, although goodness knows that Europe does need a pan-European political movement. There isn't much of that approach present in people's day-to-day lives. There are some elitist projects like European Federalists, so things like that occupy political science students and people here in Brussels, but there isn't a popular political movement, a mass movement in Europe about Europe, which might, if people are watching from outside Europe, might be a bit surprising, but that doesn't exist. DM 25, by trying to bring a more grassroots people's approach to the European project, which has been so far an elitist project, a project of trade and of governments and essentially creating a trade cartel with its capital in Brussels and turning that into a project that people can identify with, a project from which people would not vote for Brexit, if you like. That is the DM 25 conception of trying to recreate a Europe that is close to its citizens, both in practice, but also in terms of identity. In order to do that, and looking back at other political movements, especially over the last 20, 30 years, which one could argue have suffered from the neoliberal ailments of approaching politics as a political beggar, this idea that there are people in power, and there are the people that are governed, and we need to try and get the people in power to do what we want them to do, which is quite far away from what a democracy is meant to be, which is that you elect people that you represent you and when they don't represent you, you get rid of them. You replace them with people that do represent you. It's not this idea that we need to lobby the people in power as if they're a separate entity to the people in general. So in order to do that, DM 25's created what we call electoral wings, in essence, political parties in different countries in Europe that look at the electoral situation in that country and create an assessment and a strategy and tell the movement this is what we think we should do in Italy for our ideas to gain traction electorally in the country. So we try to bridge this gap between the horizontality of inclusiveness and engagement and freedom, if you like, of a political movement and the more vertical electoral politics and making sure that that energy can also be translated into concrete political power that is directly answerable to the people at the base. This reinventing that connection and that would revolutionize in many ways, I think, politics and the way electoral politics is understood. So I'm just giving you one thing that DM is doing that I think is different to other political movements. There are probably others. With this in mind, do you feel that there are elements of the DM project that could instruct what people are doing in the States, Ciro? I do. I will be, I'll try not to be too critical about it. Great, moving on to Cassie. Carry on. Sorry. No, like I said, when I first joined DM, it was really the first time that I had been a part of a movement where my opinion seems to be important, which is not, that's probably an overstatement, but the DM's techniques for maintaining a democratic commitment to the base, I think they are innovative. I don't think I've seen any movement adopt them, any other movement adopt them. And there's this tension between having kind of rock star intellectuals at the top and then having a movement which is is democratically legitimate. And whether or not DM has managed that perfectly, it has managed it better than anyone I've seen before. And it has not seemed to run into the problem of having democratic accountability, but being unable to produce or do anything. And that is a, it's also kind of, it's new, it's innovative. And rather than, I think in the United States, the forms of leftism are still kind of classic or old, or what you've seen before, because the left was so thoroughly defeated here for so long that it hasn't had a chance to evolve. And one of my goals is to bring that, is to make that other people in the United States aware of other possibilities. And then also, DM is expressly committed to dealing with global institutions, not simply because it's the right thing to do, because it's the only way to bring all of us forward. And Americans, despite the very prominent role the United States plays in global institutions, Americans never really interact with these systems. So they, they don't seem to have, they're not on the radar of most Americans in the way that they are of DMers. And one, I think that's a problem because without a global perspective, the United States will never be able to change its domestic politics. And then two, I think that U.S. leftists have a tremendous responsibility to pull these levers of power, because for example, Ecuador, Ecuadorians are now dealing with the IMF, and they would love to be able to petition, for example, legislators that sit on the committees that deal with the IMF, because the United States has an enormous role, but they cannot. And so U.S. leftists have a responsibility to, to interact. And I think DM presents a very, very strong case for how that should be done and that it can be done. Thanks, Giro.  So in that sense, I think often when we look at progressives in the U.S. from, from, from the European perspective, we almost don't want to hear what they have to say about international affairs, because it's, it's, it's often cringe-worthy, like we cannot believe, you know, the political approach that often progressives have on international relations, people that, you know, we just nod along when they speak about internal domestic politics. And then the moment it goes beyond American borders, we're like, what did you just say about Palestine? Or, you know, so it's, that's interesting. And I think on this point, maybe it'd be interesting to go to Cassian to talk a bit about certain stereotypes, if you like, that let's start from, from this perspective, like certain stereotypes that you think Americans have about Europe, politically, let's not go, you know, to lifestyle TV now, but about politics and the politics in Europe, that in your experience have not been true. Well, first of all, I have to say that most of my American friends don't even think about Europe, which is really surprising to me. So they hear, they hear certain kind of things about Europe, and they believe it sort of carte blanche, and they don't, they don't really pay attention to the details. And, and I think when it comes to DM, my experience with DM has been very interesting, because I didn't participate actively for a long, long time, I just sort of listened and got, you know, sort of kept up with it. But then I was, I was, I was asked to join an association by, by someone in, in, in, at the national level, and someone in one of the lower levels of DM.  And so when they showed me what I could offer, I was very happy to do it. And I think what I see sort of not happening in the United States is that I don't see any of this happening. So what I try to do is explain to people that the DM is, is, is a group of individuals who are contacting each other, and you can talk to anybody from the bottom to the top. And that's what I love about it. And this is exactly what I explained to my British friend. I got him involved.  I've been in unions. I've done this. I've done that. And he's, and he's been at the top of it. But I said, look, I think you should just at least get involved a little bit and find out, I go to a Zoom meeting and listen to what people are saying and introduce yourself, because this, this movement is a group of people talking to each other. And I think that is really enjoyable. And, and I, I find it refreshing. And yes, I'm sure. I mean, when I go on the forums, I read everybody's, you know, comments to each other. And I wonder, okay, we're going to be on a Zoom call in it and a half hour. I wonder how this is going to go. But it goes great because everyone really understands that we're in DM together. We're doing this together. And this is what I don't see in the United States at the moment. I don't see a lot of cohesion within the left. I see a lot of division and a lot of anger and a lot of worry and a lot of accusations that don't make any sense or just sort of silly. So, so what, I guess what I, my experience with DM is that I've been, I've been gently pulled in by, by various individuals who took an interest in me for some reason, they saw my, my, my Facebook activity and, and they said, well, let's talk to her.  I found it amazing. And so it just made me so want to be a part of this group. And, and so that's what I explained. I said, look, to, to my friend, I said, look, you know, well, you can talk to anybody in, in this, in this group, there's 160,000 people or more, but you can talk to anyone that you can find, you know, anyone. And, and I think that is just, that's the way to go. It's a big group. It's, we're, we're, we're, we're trying to do a lot of things on a lot of fronts and, and we've gotten our fingers in a lot of different pies. And, and now what's happening after, after a few years is we are, we are starting to realize, okay, we have certain limitations. Let's, let's, let's narrow it down. Let's pare it down. Let's, let's get more focused with different people. And I think the idea of faces in DM is very, very brilliant. And, and the Monday night calls really allow people who are just rank and file members. Basically, I'm, I'm just the lowest of the low member. And I, and yet I can get into a Monday night call and talk to people that are in my group. And I meet all kinds of people, just wonderful, interesting people that are doing their lives and, and, and operating in Europe. And I don't still know that much about how to live in Europe. I'm, I'm just, you know, about to get my, try to get my residency in France. And that's the paperwork is quite amazing. So I'm trying to really show my American friends or my British friends that DM is really for all of us. And we can, we can have our voice and we can be invited in by people and people take an interest in us. And also, I just want to say another thing, talking about the, the, the universality of, of, of keeping, that's my watchword to speak in the universal. And so I met one person in DM that I found a little abrasive. And I was a little worried that I, that I wouldn't enjoy this person too much. And I wasn't sure if I could work with this person. But I made a decision. And I think this is what people on the left in the United States have to do. You have to make a decision to be upholding of that person and to, and to want to know that person better and to, and to appreciate the attention they give to you instead of being so concerned with what you disagree with. And, and so that's what I'd like to see happen more in the United States. And I think that's what DM can teach us. And it's something that I feel I can teach DMers about my personal way of handling being involved with people is talking on, in a use universal way at where we hit that, what I call the universal sweet spot, which exists in every conversation, in every group of people, there is a universal that everyone can touch upon. And I think this is what the, the, the various groups in the Rainbow Coalition, way long time ago in the 60s, they understood that in a visceral, personal way. And I would like to see more of that happen in the United States right now. It's very divisive and it's crazy. And, and I want, and I'm, I'm happy to transfer what I, what I know of DM as how, as a working structure that really, really includes you as much as you want to be included. Thanks, Cassey. People probably think we're paying your commission for that. Thank you for those flying review. It's wonderful to hear. Full disclosure, we're not for those of you watching us. But thank you for that. And maybe Ciro, you'd like to, to also jump in to talk a bit about, well, what Cassie said, and in general also, you know, political misinterpretations that people might have, both Europeans about the States on your experience and Americans about Europe, whatever Europe is. And for example, we had a question on the, on the chat on YouTube, how come there is tremendous misinterpretation of socialism in America? So this is something that, you know, like European will look at and be like, hmm, you know, McCarthyism and so on. Maybe you'd like to, to expand about the story of, of the left in the States. Well, the, so there are a couple of different ways of saying it. But so the current form of the left, we remember that the neoliberal project that we're all struggling against, it would be hard to argue it has been more successful anywhere than America. I mean, the most successful story of neoliberal, neoliberalism's ascent. But on top of that, if you think about where the different techniques that have been used to fight communism and fight socialism, they all involve propaganda about the American way of life. And that propaganda, and they use American movies to do it and who spends more time in that propaganda than Americans. I, for example, the, the, in, in Italy, after World War II, the CIA was very concerned about the, the leftist groups in Italy. And so they, they focus very heavily on, on promoting American propaganda in Italy, which involved Disney films. And they were also concerned that since the population was not entirely literate, that they would need to have a strong dubbing industry to make sure that people wanted to see these movies. And so they funded the Italian dubbing industry, which is now, I think, probably some of the best dubbing in the world. But they did it with Disney movies. And once again, Americans see Disney movies more than, than even Italians. So they're, and it's easy to make, to use images to compare between the United States and, and Europe. If, if you compare a $700 a month apartment in Dallas, Texas to a similarly priced apartment anywhere in Europe, and you will see much, the American space seems comically huge. And these images are, are powerful.  And they're even more powerful for Americans. And so it takes a lot of convincing to, when, when we just use the words socialism to, to get people to listen, you can talk about socialist policies and, and they're usually quite popular. But if you use that word, you invoke this, this competition that, that has been drilled into American culture for so long. And that is difficult to struggle against. Thanks, Chiro. Cassie, did you want to jump in? I think one of the problems about socialism, the word socialism in America, and it's, it's so sad, but really American socialism was gigantic for years. And, and, and nobody seems to know it in America anymore. And, and, and so when Bernie Sanders stood up there, he was a, he was a social Democrat, everyone sort of cringed. And, and, and no, no, I mean, it was the socialists that, that got FDR to do things. It was a socialist that they created unions in, in, in, in the 30s, in the 20s. It's, it's, and they were decimated. That's the problem is that they were, they were put down by, by I guess the neoliberal propaganda, you know, the government itself just, just, just smashed them. And I think now, we have to reeducate Americans and show them that, that socialism is not a dirty word. It's a great word. And, and progressivism is, is, is just as good and great, you know, it's, there's a lot to be learned from, from these two concepts. And, and, you know, I consider myself progressive totally. And, and, and, and I would guess I, I would be a socialist too. I, I've never joined any socialist party, but, but I, I feel it's very important to, to realize that the American people do not have any clue about socialism and the history of it, strong, strong history of it that has been completely obliterated from history books. So that heritage, I mean, the Cold War heritage, if you like, of is, is, is true from both sides of the divide. You, you have people in the States who still consider, you know, Russia, the Soviet Union, and therefore also communism, the, the enemy. And then you also have the people who lived under the Soviet Union and the Warsaw Pact States in Europe as well, who also are traumatized by that experience and for whom also that, you know, the word socialist, the word communist, you know, comes with a trigger warning, you know, it's, it's, it's difficult for them to listen to anybody once they've introduced themselves as such. So there's definitely a lot there to unpack about what was, what wasn't, what was propaganda, you know, indeed to what extent the Soviet Union is identifiable as, as, as actual communism and the rest of it. And I'm not going to start the conversation 10 minutes before our chat is meant to finish. But let's go back for the last 10 minutes and talk a bit more. We've had questions in the chat specifically to, to, to this end, a bit more about how you would go about, you're clearly both convinced that the M is a good place. It's a good move. It's interesting. It has interesting things to say. You're engaged in it. What would be some hooks that you would use in order to get people engaged? What is something that, that, that you tell someone in order to get them more involved? If you have any actual examples of, of, of things that you've done in order to, to reach out to people about DM, that'd be interesting to hear. Let me just contextualize this a bit further for you. And we have an American member in Portugal, Shana, who says they're solidly behind the M25, but they're not sure they'd find their place in the movement. I don't know, Shana, if you're a member of DM 25 or not yet. But either way, I'll leave it to Ciro and to Cassie to tell us, you know, how they would go about getting, for example, Shana on board. Cassie, let's start with you. Well, I would, I don't know Shana. So I don't know her, her background. But, but I would say to Shana that, that if you are interested in talking to actual people in the movement at any level, then I would definitely join for a nominal fee as much as you can afford, a small amount. I don't pay a huge amount right at this moment. I'd like to pay more, but I can't at the moment. But I think that, that, that what you will find is you will find your place once you get in it. It's really hard to imagine what your place would be if you don't at least talk to some of these people. And the Monday night chat, which is going to be international, I think next Monday, I think that's going to be a wonderful way to get in. You can get in by, by joining on the DM website and just, you know, agree to a certain amount, whatever you can afford and just get involved. And you will find that people are quite welcoming and they are just normal average people. They're not intimidating. They're interested in you and, and it's, it's, it's a good exchange. It's been a great exchange for me. That's how I feel. And, and do you have any examples of sort of reaching out of getting people because, you know, as somebody who is not French in France, it's not, it's a delicate position to be in, you know, to, to essentially tell people what to do about their country, about their continent and whatnot. To be very honest with you, I have not approached many French people officially. And part of the reason is one of my students, we talked about politics a lot and she voted blank in the last election. And I understand that because I voted blank when, when, when Bernie Sanders was, was, you know, not allowed to be the presidential nominee in 2016. And I lost my ability to vote in my own country. I don't think that happens here, but actually they, they've scrubbed me from the record and I had to rejoin in order to vote again if I wanted to. So, you know, I would say definitely just, just open up to the idea if you want to be involved in a movement that has, that has an egalitarian way of being, then this is, this is the movement for you. In terms of politics, it's very hard for me to, to, to convince someone that, that, that you should join on as a result of being a progressive or interested in politics. But the electoral wing in France has not fully developed yet, but we are trying to do that. And, and it's quite difficult because there's a lot of cynicism that we have to overcome. And I, you know, there's a lot of cynicism in the United States. It's for the same reason, like one of my friends that I've tried to engage, he's very, very radical. He's, he's, he says, we just need a revolution in the United States. And, and so I've said to him, well, okay, you don't believe in electoral politics, but, but yet we have to start somewhere. And, and do you really want to get beaten up? Maybe, maybe you should start in a slightly less dangerous area and talk to people and, and, and get involved that way. And I, I believe once DM takes hold in the United States as an actual part of, of the United States and their, and, and movements in the United States, they can, it'll be great. But, but in terms of Europe, it's really hard for me to talk to, to a French person about, about what to do in their politics. I wouldn't touch it. I, I'm very gentle about it. I, I offer the idea, but, but I don't push it much. And, and I do, I do at this time still use Yannis and his, and his, his, as a Greek finance minister. And, because that's what they remember that the big bra that, about what happened to degrees that, and, and they, they identify with that. So I start there. I bring, I bring his name in and I explain what he tried to do. And now he's got this incredible movement and it's, it's transnational. Well, what's that? What's transnational? I don't understand. I'm, I'm French. I, you know, I'm Italian. I'm, I'm, I'm, yes, but you're part of the world. And the world is branching out. It's time to be transnational. Not, not, not in, in, in the one world order kind of way. Thanks, Cassie. Chiro, over to you. Same question, same context, different place. Yes. So one of the, what, my experience of DM has been that I didn't necessarily need to have a, a contribution or, or a unique perspective or an area of expertise in order for people to treat me as though I am valuable and to treat my perspective as valuable. And, and which means that I can do things like spend a lot of time listening and learning and still feel like I'm not, that I'm not like an outsider, that somebody that is, you know, sitting on the wall observing because people still have, have always been interested in, in what I have to say, even if I'm not, you know, my, we deal with a lot of technical issues and I don't have expertise in all of these issues, but still people are glad to have me. And it means that our connections are much stronger. My, my DM connections are very strong despite now being across oceans. And so one of the ways that I am trying to make those connections happen in the United States has been just presenting to American Leftists and, you know, obviously the DSA, some of DM's activities, like right now my big project with them is the European Action Coalition for Housing and, and Rights to Housing in the City is, is trying to put together a Pan-European demonstration for housing rights. March 27th is the actual demonstration. And my goal right now is to show to all of my American Leftist contacts the, the value of, of jumping onto that momentum so that there's a kind of synergy that we can help each other, producing something similar in the United States that acknowledges what's happening in Europe because if it, if it appears to spread that, that makes it more powerful. And I think somebody asked a question about what about the Disney movies is what Disney movies have been used in propaganda in the, in, in Italy. Well, so the first thing I'll say is that propaganda by film works by changing your idea of what is normal and what is good. So it doesn't necessarily need to be a targeted message. But for me, the film Pinocchio is, is the, is the big example because it takes an Italian story and, and quite Americanizes it. The, the, the, the models for the, the city used are not even Italian. I think they're, they're Austrian or no, not Austrian. There's somewhere from the model for the city is pulled from somewhere from Northern Europe and much of the, the character of Pinocchio has changed. He's a, he's a kind of lovable, lovable little boy and, and the values that emerge from the film are American. They're not necessarily specifically Italian, which is not to say that there's not common, commonality there. But the, the, what, what you get with this kind of happy ending where everything is okay, where, where the central virtue of the film, the song is when you, if you, if you just want something hard enough, it will come to you that when you wish upon a star makes no difference who you are. That's an American dream message inserted into an Italian story. And it's not necessarily a bad message in on its own, but you know, when you put it in the context of constantly, constantly, all you have to do is want. Yeah. And it actually comes from a time when the American dream, you had half a chance at it, not so much anymore. You know, it doesn't. It was a little bit before, it was a little bit before we started to see them to see the, the kind of values of, of regulated capitalism. But yeah, that's, that's my big example is, is the way to alter Pinocchio to be American. I remember very keenly Hercules as, as a Greek. You see something that's meant to be about your own country, albeit ancient, albeit the ancient, but you know, this idea that Hercules zero to hero, he became important, he became relevant, he became a superstar, and he was on soda drinks and on t-shirts in ancient Greek.  And to see that approach to it, obviously, you don't conceive it as problematic at the time, but, but that's, that is propaganda, right? It's something that gets internalized. It's something, it's how you just choose to tell that story. And what values you imbue that story with, you know, what does it mean to be successful? What does it mean for Hercules to have become a hero, you know, and it's basically to be a pop star. So there's definitely a lot of that. We should probably have a call just on propaganda and Disney movies, especially as millennials. We could wax lyrical. Anyway, I'm keenly aware of the time. However, I would like to maybe end this call with another word from both of you. But before I do, just to, you know, do the service announcements. So our David, who is in the background watching me, a producer and social media digital hero doesn't kill me. A couple of things. First of all, thank you all for watching us. This was DM TV and the segment is called Faces of DM. We'll be back next month with the next episode where we go into more stories of members of DM 25, how they got engaged, why and what they've been doing since they got engaged. If you enjoyed this content and you'd like to see more of it, please subscribe to our channel button down below. If you're interested in DM and you'd like to get more engaged more, please have a look at the description of the video or visit our website, dm25.org. If you're from beyond Europe's borders and you feel like you're not utterly convinced that DM is the place for you, although I think our members did an excellent job to at least give it a good shot at persuading you. There's also Progressive International, which is essentially DM 25 goes global. It is our projection of the DM project. It's co-founders of it and really bringing this idea of uniting progressives across the globe around a common agenda, common program for change, PI or Progressive International. You can find it at progressive.international and follow also the work that they do through there. That's it for me. Very briefly, I'd like to take the floor back to Cassie and Ciro and ask them for any parting words they might have. For those who've been watching this past hour, maybe people who joined us in the last five, 10 minutes and didn't have the chance to see the whole thing, by the way, it will be available on our YouTube channel. Don't worry too much, but also if you're incredibly lazy and don't have time for to spend an entire hour on this. Cassie, what would you give them as the summary of the call, as the one or two takeaway points for being a member of DM 25, regardless of where you're based or where you're from? Well, as a human being, to be included, to be asked to be included in a group, especially if you're a foreigner in a brand new country and you're on shaky ground. Suddenly, I consider DM my country within this country because I get to be involved. A lot of times I just go on the CC calls, which is the coordinating committee, the top committee that involves all of Europe. I listen and I learn so much. Then I get to know the people who are involved. Then you also get to vote for these people. I don't remember how long they have to be at the top, but I voted for them. Two of the people I voted for got in, and I was very excited. One person that I wanted them to stay, they stayed, so I was really thrilled. I could be part of that. I can't vote in France, so I can vote in DM. That's great. Thanks, Cassie. And Jira, over to you, Meg. Well, for me, I know that now is a period where people feel like many, many things are falling apart and they struggle to find a way that they can do something because you feel helpless. DM has the virtue of giving you a place and a voice in a movement that is focused on the prize and that is active, that is doing things. DM is not the place where people sit around and talk. There's action and action that crosses borders and action that demands attention and is agile and innovative and thinks things through. So it is the best way I can think of to fight that feeling of helplessness. And I wish for everyone that they no longer feel helpless. Thank you very much. Jira, thank you, Cassie. Thank you both for your time. Thank you all for being with us, for watching. Stay tuned for the next episodes of DMTV and, as always, Carpe Diem. Have a good evening.