to see just how much interest there is. Andrew, do you wanna kick us off? Okay, I've just hit record. I'm assuming you've seen a prompt saying I've hit record. Good. All right, so thank you for joining us for this webinar. As Tom mentioned, had I known Tom was gonna say all of that, I would have hit record 30 seconds earlier, but there we go. This is an opportunity to hear about open source program officers from Said Chowdhury, who is here, well, for a variety of reasons, but in part because he's director of the open source program's office at Carnegie Mellon. I've known Said for 20 years now, I reckon. We first bumped into each other in the institutional repository space when David Gronowhegan was also involved. David seems to have vanished, but never mind. So Said has been working in the intersection between scholarship and technology for a very long time and brings deep experience and deep knowledge to bear on the space. But in this particular context is most relevant because of his direct work with open source program officers. I've given Said a bit of context so he understands where we're coming from. We've got 11 participants on the webinar, so I'm very happy to keep it fairly interactive, but maybe if we give Said a chance to provide some introductory material and then we can dive into a conversation about particular issues. Over to you, Said. Thank you, Andrew. Thank you for the opportunity to be here. It's great to chat with colleagues in Australia. Good to see Andrew and Tom and David and some new faces. So hopefully we get to know you a little bit better as well. I do hope this is interactive. The last thing I want to do is talk at you for 45, 50 minutes. So please do jump in with questions either raising your hand or going off audio or in chat as I move along and I'll do my best to address them. As Andrew said, I think some introductory or contextual remarks may be useful in terms of the Ospo landscape in the United States, how it's come to be and the questions around open source software. So I often begin by mentioning thinking about all software, not just open source, depending on which recent reports you believe, anywhere between 95 to 98% of all software is reliant on open source software in some way or another, either consuming open source modules, for example, or being released as open source of software or both. So when a lot of people come to me and say, I don't know if my university's producing open source software, using open source software, I take a step back and say, does your organization have any software whatsoever? And if it does, chances are there's at least open source embedded in it or it can potentially be released as open source. And that tends to make people think, oh wait, yes, of course we're producing software or using software in some way or another. Another important dimension to that is the assertion that software, open source software is a primary research object. So a lot of the policies that have been developed in the United States of the last decade or so, particularly at the federal government level, which of course influences the funders both that are on private, have moved in some sense from articles to data to software. So the first set of public access, my most of you wish to call them that focused on open access to articles and then moved progressively toward the data that are cited by those articles or that are necessary for re-producibility and so on. And then now are getting around to thinking about software itself. So the Office of Science and Technology Policy in the White House issued a memo last year that is an update to the public access memo that came out over a decade ago. And I spoke with one of the authors of that memo and he said in the earlier versions they had mentioned open source software specifically but getting feedback from some of the funders and some of the universities, everybody said, yes, of course it's important, but we are not ready. We do not know what an appropriate set of policies would be around open source software.  We don't know what those social norms are and so on and so on. And the last thing we wanna do is create unfunded mandates or set up policies that may get difficult for funders and universities to respond. And by the way, can you help? Can you help us in fact to inform the update to this policy as we think about open source software? So at least in the U.S. there's recognition of its importance, its role in supporting open science more broadly and there's an understanding that universities funders need some time and some dedicated effort to become better organized around it and that an OSPO or an open source program office or a network of them can be a wonderful way to do that. One description I've used for an OSPO is an organizational API. No matter how large or small the organization might be, if someone is interested within your organization about knowing what kind of open source activity it's happening, where does one go to ask that question? And for those of anyone who's outside of your organization that wishes to interact with your organization, again, can the OSPO become that organizational interface that allows them not to have to deal with all the complexities of the internal workings of your university, your museum or whatever it might be, but rather just say, I'm interested in open source, can you help me navigate that landscape? And the last thing I'll say about context and background is I've only been at Carnegie Mellon since last August. Andrew and I met when I was at Johns Hopkins where I worked for many, many years. And I was a member, I led the library team that supported the Johns Hopkins Global dashboard, COVID-19 dashboard. And it is cited rightly so as a real success story and celebration of open science. Proud to say that I was the initially lone voice that said the data should be licensed using a creative license. And some people said, what is that? But we moved fairly quickly toward using that kind of license, which I think was important. But I've also heard from a lot of the medical researchers at Hopkins in terms of the vaccine development that it was still difficult to share data with each other. There were still patient records and so on, even if the federal government said everybody be open and access to articles was made more freely. It still wasn't easy to share data. But by sharing code, they were able to infer what kinds of data they were using and what kind of analysis was being used. So it was a clever and more rapid kind of workaround from trying to share the data. And I say that to point out that for all the things I've talked about in terms of the federal landscape and universities thinking about research objects. Open science is a good thing to do period, right? And what we've heard is, well, of course, we wanna do that for COVID. But what we're also hearing now is, well, we wanna do that for cancer and heart disease and diabetes and all sorts of other medical issues. We wanna do that for climate change, recruiting security or electrification, de-governmentization. Why can't universities do this with all these other global problems that we have yet to address? And I don't think universities at least in the US will have the luggage saying, well, that was COVID. And we did all that for COVID, but we don't really want to be open for all these other types of things. So I think this is a one-way street. We will find more and more funders assisting on this, more and more policies around this. And I think that open source software is a key component in any of these kinds of conversations moving forward. So let me take a pause there in terms of context background. I obviously don't know the Australian context background certainly nearly as any of you. So be happy to take questions or perhaps, hear your comments about that before I move more into sort of hospital, setting up an hospital. Maybe I can comment to kick us off. I don't think that we have a stronger policy environment, but it's always important to remember, I think with this particular problem. There's a few different types of policy and it seems unlikely to me that a kind of mandating particular behavior, that kind of policy is going to happen in the Australian landscape all that soon. But there is a type of policy that captures norms as they emerge. And the important thing to keep in the back of my mind as we do this is that this is already happening. Software production and use as part of research is huge. It's enormous and it's not visible, but it is happening. And really where the change actually is, is an understanding characterizing and amplifying the behavior that's already happening basically. And that is a precursor to the emergence of normative policy or an environment that supports it. So, yeah. Okay, that's helpful to know. Just picking up on the point about norms, one other observation I've made is that the norms around open source software are much more conducive to openness than they are around data. Or certainly around articles, if you think about the four publishers in the world that they play in that ecosystem. Faculty members, again, at least in the US, are quite comfortable putting their code out on GitHub or GitLab or take your pick. They're quite comfortable basically saying, sure, I would like people to see the code and to adopt it and to use it. That isn't true in a way around data. Sometimes for very good reasons. And certainly isn't true around articles, if you sign obviously the publisher agreements that the four proper publishers wish for. So, the other aspect of thinking about things like reproducibility, which is a key aspect of the policy development in the US, the code is critical for the reproducibility. I can read an article and basically gain no insight into how to reproduce your results. Even if you give me the data, it's probably not enough. So having the code is really key for the reproducibility aspect, but it also lends itself to the kinds of norms that make it easier to share. And to distribute and manage the software in a collective way. So let me shift a little bit to the OSPO concept, which is something that's actually existed in the private sector for many years, at least a decade, depending on who you ask. So we're learning and borrowing in some sense from that context. I've been very fortunate to work directly with some of the people who started earlier and even more recent OSPO's in the corporate setting. But even in a very early set of conversations, I made it clear to them that whatever work in the corporate environment isn't going to work in the university or academic sector. We don't have a specific set of licenses that we can compel faculty members to use. We don't tell faculty members how to produce their software. It's just a very different environment. And for most people, that was clear, but as we started going down this path when they literally said things like, well, what do you mean? What do you mean you can't tell them? This is the DevOps practice that they have to use. Well, what do you mean you can't say these are the licenses? I said, you just can't trust me. It would be a very short unpleasant conversation if you try to tell somebody with 10-year academic freedom whatever term you want to use that this is the way you will do it. So very quickly shifted to best practices, right? It's that the private sector has developed a set of ways in which they develop software. And specifically toward more industrial scale usage, so large numbers of people and to do so in a way that fosters this sort of community development and use. One person I've worked with for about three and a half years at this point, Steven Wally at Microsoft, he's in the Azure office. He has this wonderful metaphor to cooking. He says, if you cook for yourself that should be relatively easy. As soon as you add one other person, you at least have to know what that person likes or their dietary preferences and so on. If you have a dinner for a friend's family, same thing. You should probably ask, but you're starting to now harmonize the menu in a way that isn't specifically for one person at a time.  How would you like me to prepare this just for you? And then if you're preparing food for a thousand people or 10,000 people, you certainly don't do that. So what are the metaphors in terms of software development? And if you've ever been involved in software growth, you've probably heard that phrase, it works on my laptop, right? What do you mean it doesn't work when you put it onto the production server? What do you mean when a thousand people use it, it didn't work? So again, not going to researchers, academics can say, you must do things this way, but rather, are you interested in taking this software to this more industrial scale? Are you interested in other people being able to interact with the code that you produce? The answer may be no. There is a large amount of software produced according to Mellon that is used to train students that is used to experiment on something that should never see the light of day. That's totally fine. But there are some subsets where the faculty actually say, yes, I do, I actually do want this to be used, I want this to be adopted. And if I can do things further upstream to make that more minimal, then sure, I'm willing to listen, I'm willing to work with you. So the OSPO's fundamental sort of mapping of that corporate role into the academic sector we can help advise you around best practices, we can connect you to tools that are being used by thousands of developers throughout the world that will make it easier once you're ready, should you be ready to share that software, it'll be easier to make that happen. Same thing around license choices. So we do work very closely with what's called our technology transfer office in the US, that is the commercialization type of thing in US universities. And I will tell you both at Hopkins and at Carnegie Mellon, the Tech Transfer Office immediately came to me and said, are you willing to tell everyone to produce everything open source and what licenses they're going to use? The answer is no. I don't feel the need to tell everyone should do everything open source software. That's a choice that someone needs to make, particularly because it involves some effort, right? So telling someone to do this and then having telling them that all these other things you need to do, it's not a good recipe. So working with Tech Transfer, what we've basically argued is ultimately what we're about is impact. And I'm happy to say that the head of Tech Transfer at CMU, when I kept saying translation, which is the term US universities use to talk about research being translated beyond the Wilson University, I kept saying commercialization is only one form of translation, right? And he finally interrupted me and said, I don't actually use the word translation, I use the word dissemination, right? That is ultimately the goal of the Tech Transfer Office. It's a different kind of dissemination, but open source software is a perfectly valid kind of dissemination as well. So I'm not saying this is the case at all US universities, but it's a good discussion to have with a Tech Transfer Office is that we're not here to compete with the things you're asked to do, the metrics you're asked to work toward, but rather here's a different set of metrics that relate to open source software and its impact. And mind you, this is not all just altruistic or sort of high principle or however you wanna think about it. One conversation I had within CMU, the president of CMU was present when the CHIPS Act was signed at the White House. This is a major act of funding in the United States to focus on next generation manufacturing, semiconductors, so on. And the point I made to him was, Carnegie Mellon can produce software in this realm that's relevant and we can spin off a company and make some money. Or we can produce open source software that impacts the entire sector of manufacturing for city semiconductors or metal refining or whatever you wish to call it. I had this phrase that I didn't really think it was that useful, what people seem to think it is, is that if data is the new oil then software is the refinery, right? So if you produce software that an entire sector of the United States, maybe even the world uses, isn't that valuable to Carnegie Mellon as well? And he said, well, of course it is. That's the kind of thing I would take to a funder. That's the kind of thing I would take to the representative we have in Congress and the Senate and so on. So it's a different kind of conversation about impact, social impact and so on. So when that kind of conversation happens you can start to see this inflection towards, oh, okay, maybe we should manage our software more intentionally and more strategically. And curiously enough, what I've found is that faculty are actually quite open to this. I think many faculty have understood that they don't know a lot about private sector industrial software development. Some do. I met a couple of faculty members early on in Carnegie Mellon who had taken their software through the Apache Foundation process. They don't need any help from me, right? They don't need to talk to me. They know what they're doing. They went to Apache, figured that out. That's wonderful. But they are the exception. They're not the norm. The vast majority of even other places that Carnegie Mellon faculty will say, I don't actually know, right? If I've run this, you know, developed the software using this practice, I don't actually know the best place to deposit it. I don't know the best license choices and so on. So it's fundamentally about a consultation in terms of what are your ultimate goals, right? Where are you trying to get? And what early decisions can we make that sort of make that easier or make it harder or maybe open up pathways you didn't realize or constrained pathways you didn't realize? So one interesting nuance that I've learned recently is people who want to open up their software even though it's been closed or vice versa, something that's closed and open it up. license choices have profound implications for your ability to do that. And they don't know that. They just think, why can't I open this up? Or why can't I close this? So having those kinds of conversations I think has been really critical to helping them to think of the auspice as center of competency, right? Not a center of excellence. That's a somewhat loaded term and I don't necessarily believe the auspice is going to be a center of excellence. But a center of competency implies you may have questions, we may be able to answer them directly or we can connect you to other people who can answer those questions directly or we can help you find resources that can be absolutely questions. So it's very much a, I'd like to do the following thing. Can you help me? And then just leave the choices to me. As long as I understand the choices and the implications, that's fine. So help me understand the implications so I can make better informed choices. Now one related aspect to this is the organizational home for an auspice. I've been at two institutions where it's based out of the libraries. So I have that bias, I guess, if you wanna call it that. But the reason I have that is it's fairly rare in my opinion and my experience that a faculty member will show up and say, I need help with software only. And I don't wanna talk to you about the data or the articles or the open science or any of those other things or mentoring my students or so on. Typically it's, I'm trying to advance my research or I'm trying to teach a certain way and software is a piece of that. So libraries in the U.S. have developed data management services, have broken relationship with publishers around open access or it can provide consultation about looking at author claims and so on. So I've made the argument that aligning that software kind of consultation with existing consultation around data or articles, best practices for science is a natural alignment. That doesn't have to be the case. There's another round of funding. So the first six auspices in the U.S. have been funded by the Apple Creek Sloan Foundation and they are going to fund another round next month. I don't know how many but let's just say for the sake of argument, they double it. My understanding is they are trying to look at some diversity or because national models as well. So not necessarily looking for all of them to be in libraries, all of them being computer science or research computing. It's early days for university auspices. So there's not a blueprint. There are guides. There are recommendations and there are observations but there's no, this is the way it needs to be done. So again, let me take a pause there and see if there are questions or comments. So I'm interested in your last comments there about the organizational position, I guess. That's what you're saying. What sort of relationship do you have or do you see having with the university's central IT function? Because I guess one of the things I guess I've seen a lot more in recent years is university IT is increasingly risk averse for all sorts of good reasons, right? Because lots of open doors into the university create lots of problems, right? So the things that make them particularly nervous is open doors that they don't understand. And also I think in my time of universities a push towards their main purpose in life is keeping the corporate governance systems going, right? So if it comes down to the email server's gonna work or Professor X's little bit of code is gonna work they're gonna focus on the email server, right? Because if the email goes down the vice chancellor hears about it or the president hears about it. If Professor X goes down, yeah, that's a problem but unless the professor has a really good line to the president, the president's probably gonna hear about. So I'm sort of curious about what the relationship you see there from in that it is and whether they have that works for you and cause nervousness. Yeah, yeah. So it's interesting to know that this is one way in which the US and Austria are similar. So I do think there's another key relationship to have for an hospital is with the Central IT Group that will vary depending on the nature of the institution. I used to be at Hopkins which has a very significant medical and public health enterprise which gone email and does not. So that has an impact in terms of the culture in terms of what Central IT is worried about and so on. There are some broad general things you're right. There's an increase in emphasis on security, on compliance and all sorts of things that you know, CIOs have to think about. I actually remember talking to the CIO at Hopkins in her NCI at the time and your job is really difficult. He goes, yes, it really is. So I'm sensitive to this. I'm not trying to be unfair in any way but I do agree with your general characterization that Central IT in some ways has had the proportion of academic kind of focus and interest and more corporate administrative because of Hopkins medical types of concerns has grown over time, right? And I think that's just a reality. I think that's a fair statement. So in that context, it's not to say a Central IT group couldn't be the organization owned for Ospo but I think my own opinion is having an Ospo outside of the Central IT group that works closely with them is a better model and the way that, what are some of the ways that we can work together? So security is one aspect of that. I don't think a lot of academics are thinking about security throughout their software development process. I'll just put it that way. Whether they do it at all or not, it's a fair question. So a real conversation with a faculty member recently where I said, are you aware of the US NIST, National Institute Standards and Technology Framework for Secure Software Development? He said, I have no idea what you're talking about. Being able to say these things exist, you may want to look at them, you may want to consider them, you may want to think about the implications before you release your software to the world. And you do so without a license, by the way. It's very interesting implications on you if something goes wrong. So Central IT groups tend to be happy when they hear, oh look, there's another group of the university that's reminding the faculty that this is an important issue and this is something we need to think about. I'll also say that, again, I don't know if this is common in Australia, but in the US, some Central IT groups also run the research computing groups within the university. So that's another area where I think there's a lot of potential common interest and overlap between an OSPO and the Central IT group. And we're finding that this sort of rise of research software engineering as a role in the US is becoming a much more prominent type of development. And I will say that I've spoken to the deputy CAO at CMU and had a very good conversation about what kind of services are we going to provide around research computing and open source computing and do that together. And where we initially spoke about it, and I'm slated to speak to a group in July about this, the research computing advisory committee, is the library is a good place to do sort of narrow, thin, large numbers of engagement, right? So training around Python, R, Git, so on, where undergrads, grads who know nothing about it can come to the library and learn. As you go sort of deeper down, or I said it was a set of concentric circles, right? Is as you get to these outer circles and Carnegie Mellon has a relationship with the University of Pittsburgh Supercomputing Center. Supercomputing Center saying, hey, we want to develop these open source tools for orchestration of the workflows here. That's not something the OSPO is going to do. So as you get to these very specialized kind of needs, then it's probably more appropriate for a research computing central IT someone to say, we're going to develop that, but in concert with the OSPO, right? And they're looking to us for help around things like Git training and so on. They don't need to reinvent that wheel. So it is very much trying to find at least some common points of intersection. And again, trying to make it clear that we're all trying to move in the same direction. We just have different levers and mechanisms to do so. Yeah. Oh, sorry. Just as I agree with you absolutely on that model of where the libraries will stops, because I think there's a point at which you say, well, we're good at volume, but we're never going to have the expertise for that really complicated stuff. And it becomes very messy very quickly. But there's a meta point there as well. The host within, if it's a university, and that's a big if, because we're also considering organizations that are not universities, the nature of the service or the capability is going to match what's actually possible with that unit as well. Sorry, Nick, I saw you had your hand up though. Yeah, I'd be interested to know how these OSPOs are progressing in the UK because they are much more advanced and there's much greater deployment of research software engineering groups within the universities and where, so does it align more in the UK with those groups rather than the library? Yeah, it's a good question. And, you know, just probably not surprising, I don't know the UK landscape nearly as well. I do have had some conversations with people at a couple of universities and one of them being leads and with someone in JISC, you know, which is sort of the shared services group. I don't know if that's the right way of describing it in the UK. And I think that they're interested in thinking about OSPOs. My sense is the US is definitely a place where a few universities are going to throw something at the wall and see how it goes. And then everyone will learn from that and we'll come up with an approach. Whereas I think the UK and my limited understanding tends to be more let's plan this, let's design it, and let's roll out a national type of service. I don't think they're looking for each individual university to go off and experiment and prod around this. I don't think it would stop them and the people in these actually said, you know, if you're ever in the UK, please let us know. We'd love to hear you. Have you talked to our faculty in here and so on. So there's interest, but I suspect that interest will probably bubble up and just might say, let's create a national type of an open source programs office or a network of that. Which again, I think that's a perfectly fine model. It's impossible to do in the United States. I remind everyone, the US is made up of 50 sovereign entities who increasingly don't agree on a lot of things. So it will be very hard to say, here's a national, you know what? So universities are a good place to do that kind of experimentation in the US, but that might not be true in the UK. So I see a question in the chat. I'm sorry, was there more? No, that's right. I was just gonna direct you to Kathy. If Kathy, you wanna take the microphone? Sure, Tom, thank you. And thank you so much for the presentation. To date, I'm getting a lot out of it. I wanna be clear here. I'm here in a personal capacity. I'm not representing the Institute for Long Involvement with Open Source in Australia. One of the key challenges that I see particularly for a country which has a very small research footprint, we only have 40 universities. We have a scattering of research institutions. There are several efforts in this space already in the Australian landscape. We have carpentries. We have the open data, GovHack movement. We have several sort of HPC communities of practice that are doing excellent things. My, I guess the challenge that I see here is an OSPO is another actor in this ecosystem. And how might that streamline rather than sort of duplicate or proliferate some of the efforts? Yeah, it's a very good question. I think it comes back to that first, or one of the first points I made about the organizational API in that if you're an individual in any one of these institutions that are being represented here and you have to figure out how to deal with your open source software, you'll do your best faith effort and you'll go off and do it. But if one talks to, hopefully if one talks to an OSPO you can hear, oh, you don't need to take two weeks of your class teaching your students about Python. There are these carpentries that will help you learn about Python. There are all these other resources you can use rather than doing it all yourself. And maybe this is the US mindset, but most researchers will poke around or try to find some help. And then eventually conclude, I'll just do it myself. I'll just figure it out. I'll help the students do this. So fundamentally, what we're hoping people start to realize is the OSPO.  But I'm already encouraged to see a number of faculty who reached out and said, hey, I heard about this OSPO thing and we've been using open source and can you help me? And, you know, the answer is always yes, we'll do something to help you. But again, the answer may very simply be this is external research you really shouldn't go look at. You don't need to do it on the ground. And quite frankly, neither do we, right? But I will also say that it's not one directional or sort of passive. One thing Cardinal Mellon Ospo is doing is working with somebody in the private sector in the U.S. named Duane O'Brien is a very well-respected leader in the open source tech world, at least in the U.S. About looking at the carpentry's current training for Git and evaluating it and either seeing are there things we can add to it or is there a second, you know, stage or training and so on. So we're also contributing back, right? We're hearing that students take this and they don't necessarily feel like they can actually work with it. You know, how do we improve that? So I think it's a two-way exchange. And I think particularly a network of Ospos could be a really powerful two-way exchange. It's one thing for CMU faculty or students to say we're struggling with this. It's another for 10 universities and you have to say we're struggling with this. And then I'll speak for the carpentries or any organization for that matter outside of CMU. But I would think they would be much more compelled by hearing, oh, 10 of you care about this. Sure, let's do something together. Saeed, I've just noticed we've got 15 minutes left. Did you have other slides you wanted to present or are you just happy to let the conversation run? I'm happy to let the conversation run. It really would be best to hear from all of you about what would be most useful. Yeah, I was hoping to kind of... It's a little bit Dorothy Dixer. Actually, that's a very Australian term. It's a question in parliament from the same side of the government. But... Please tell us about your latest wonderful initiative at length, that kind of thing. So to do one of those, I wanted to go a little bit from the strategic and tactical down to operational, to give people a sense in the room. For instance, how many people are usually located in an Ospo? And bearing in mind, it would be different at a university versus, say, some of the other institutions that are coming here today. Sure, I can tell you that in the corporate landscape, the number I've typically heard of is six to eight. But I will tell you that many of those are technical roles so that there are individuals who will work with code directly, who will set up software infrastructure and maintain it and support it. That hasn't been the role to date of the Ospos within universities. So I'm not saying that could not eventually become the case, but to David's earlier question, Central IT might say, why are you going off and building this other kind of team to do these things, we already have people and so on. So not to rule it out, but I don't think that that's another case where I don't think the corporate Ospo maps directly to the university one. What I will say is in these early stages, we're finding that the Ospos typically have tended to be one to two people. Now, we're all very fortunate in that we're getting funding from the Sloan Foundation, at least initially, as I'm sure is true with any funder anywhere in the world. They are also asking, what's your long-term plan? And the answer should not be you keep coming back to us, I'll break you down for money. So part of these proposals, part of the planning, I'm happy to say as of July 1, I'm being moved off of soft money onto combination of soft money and hard money at Carnegie Mellon. So this is the trajectory that the Sloans of the world are hoping for, that you prove there's value here and that your institution will step up and start to support them. The roles have tended to be sort of that consultative advocacy, connection type of roles. We aren't going in and propping up student projects, although we are supporting hackathons, right? If we wanted to get into that direction, then that would obviously entail more people. But whether that's people existing already within the organization or it's new people, that's yet to be determined. I think a good metaphor I can give you is that in the US academic landscape, the data management services groups, they span all the way from multiple individuals who will actually take data and curate it and add metadata and then process it, so on, to single individuals or maybe even a part of an individual who does nothing but the consultative piece because they simply don't have bandwidth or more. I suspect we'll see something similar with hospitals in the US, that there will be some full-fledged ones that have multiple people and then there will be some universities where it just isn't necessary to have that kind of full team. And they might just say, we just need someone who is keeping an eye on the open-source landscape, can let us know what's happening and can sort of see what's happening with the institution and do that mapping. Got another hand up. Yes, I just wanted to ask, and it's probably a question for everyone else. It's more about funding given that Australia doesn't really have philanthropic donors or anything like that. How would we look at being able to fund something, especially in the library space where budgets are quite thin? Funding one or two people can be quite an expensive task for something that may not seem in the IT space for IT departments to pay for because they're very open-source adverse. So how is everyone going to be funding this if it was just set it up? Perhaps, you know, as the code designer of a scheme to, in our words, co-invest into this space, I can jump in there. We're not quite doing it at the scale or in the way that the Sloan Foundation is doing it. We want to kind of ease our way into this and we also want to consider a broader array of partners than the Sloan Foundation has focused on universities, I believe, entirely in doing this, but OSPOs are actually present in public sector organizations and we're specifically interested in medical research institutes, glam sector, so that's galleries, libraries, archives, museums, producing software, and increased facilities in this round as well as universities and really will be guided by where the weight of the interest is, but we see value in proceeding through the initial steps as laid out in the guide written by Sayed and also in forming a network of people noting again that Sayed said that part of the real value in this is being able to talk to other OSPOs about what they're facing and it means that you distribute the knowledge and the experience around that. And so we are looking for people who are interested in taking on this initial work and to make that a little bit easier, we're offering a co-investment in that effort to reduce the cost. And in order to do that, I might just jump in with the bit that I would have wrapped up with. We are seeking expressions of interest in order to gauge whether there is sufficient level of interest out there. The expressions of interest are due on the 26th, which is Monday by midday and it is a very low bar, let me say, for an expression of interest. It is the digital version of raising your hand. So we do need people to raise their hand digitally, please, in order to proceed. Yeah, and if I can just add, I was involved in setting up one of the first data management services in the US University of Hopkins and I will say that it took a lot longer to persuade the researchers to include the data management services in their grant proposals than it has with software. That has happened, I've been included in three different proposals at this point to represent the Ospo, include the Ospo in their proposals. So there's a much quicker path I've found where researchers are saying, I need this involved in what I'm doing and I'm willing to put in some funding into my grant application to support it. And that's actually the signal that led Carnegie Mellon to say, well, okay, I mean, that's great, but number one, you can't be involved in 50 different proposals, that's simply not reasonable. So we're taking this as a signal that there's value in this and that the researchers need it and we need to sort of free you from having to sort of engage with all these different proposals one at a time. I will also mention something else within the expression of interest mechanism, sorry, request is that we're willing to consider possible partnerships in achieving this as well. So if resourcing is a problem, there are some structures out there where this does make sense. There are alliances of universities, there are clusters of increased facilities, there are peak bodies that sit over the top of Glam Sector Institutions that might be a better place to host this out of. And if you have ideas that you'd like to put forward, we'd love to hear them. David, go for it. Just follow up on what Sayed said a minute ago about the sort of sense that he has that it's gotten some traction more quickly than data management stuff. Do I, I guess when you're establishing this, how much overlap has there been with your existing data management services?  Here's another service that's got a slightly different name. You think that's been, that's an important factor? Definitely. So Carnegie Mellon Libraries has spent over a decade thinking about open science and has built a fairly substantial program around it. I know my colleagues would say, we need more people and we need more capacity. But I think it's still a fairly impressive set of both tools, services and capacity. The open source software services is considered part of that, right? So faculty at CMU already started to think about what I care about open science. I know the library has some help. Maybe I don't know exactly what it is, but there's some help. And now they hear, do you have software as part of what you're doing? Yes, oh, there's this other group you should talk to as well. You know, from a research perspective, there isn't a hard boundary between data and software, right? It's not, again, getting back to that day of the life of an academic. It's not like they wake up and say, today I will only deal with my data and tomorrow I will only deal with my software. So the fact that that line isn't so sharp and clearly delineated helps. They just need help moving forward with whatever they're doing. And it probably includes data and software. But another factor is not tied to any particular university. And that is that there are a set of canonical licenses for open source software, right? The open source initiative manages a set of canonical licenses that everybody understands, maybe not everybody understands, but everybody knows. And you can ask someone to interpret what it means from a liability perspective, from a sharing perspective, from a commercial perspective and so on. And they're sort of organized into permissive and not permissive and so on. We don't have that in the United States for data, right? We just don't have that for data. So I was involved in very early conversations around data and there was this, this is obviously my own editorial view. There was a bizarre dance where the funders kept saying universities, you go figure out your data policies. And universities said funders, go tell us what the data policies are. And nobody put the proverbial stake in the ground and said, this is the data sharing policy. This is the data set of licenses we need to use. But that conversation I had with the Office of Science and Technology Policy, one of the first things I said to them was whatever you do, point to the OSI licenses, do not let universities go off and develop their own open source licenses. So I think that makes a huge difference, right? That we have that framework in place, it's tied to the fluid boundary between data and software. And it comes back to that question of norms, right? Faculty seem much more willing to get help or share a code in a way that's not true in data. I think it's worth commenting too that data sharing or developing a culture around data sharing is actually relatively young, but really actually the movement of open source software is much more mature. And the nature of the object being considered is also different. I mean, they are different objects under the eyes of copyright law in Australia and the US. And so one thing to be cognizant of as you leverage what you understand about data sharing and how that fits into a university is that you're coming from a different set of cultural norms that have emerged under this open source software banner. I think actually, I'm sorry, Myra, but we're actually pretty much on time. I'm okay with staying past the hour if others are as well. So I know people might leave, but if there's a question, I'm happy to address it even. All right, good. Well, we might do that, but I would also give permission to people if they want to leave at this point. This is being recorded. The recording will be available. There is no FOMO to be considered here. We won't hide the link to the recording, I promise. Yeah, sure. Thanks very much. Just very quickly, my question is about what was put into the chat by Kathy Reid. So it's a quote, software defined era. I mean, it's this question for anyone. So what's the reference for it and can you please provide the context? Sure, I'm happy to take that question. And firstly, I apologize for it not being clear and not having a lot of context around it. So my argument is that we're in the era of software defined everything. So the asterisk in that comment is standing for everything. So we see things like software defined networking, software defined infrastructure. When we start to think about research engineering in the university and research institution context, we're seeing a huge growth in software supported, HPC supported research, hence the need for growing research engineering capabilities. So my comment there is basically that open source underpinsed a lot of that research software. And so in a world of software defined everything, there's an increasing need for open source capability within the research sector. Yeah, in the US people use this term critical infrastructure and software open source software in particular is mentioned everywhere in that context. Thank you. Yeah. We might wrap it up there, John, I think. That's okay. Unless there are any more questions in the room, we can go over time. Or if you do need to run off to the next meeting, then feel free to do so. I'm just filling the air by talking now in case you've got that question. And otherwise I'm going to basically launch in to say thank you very much, Said, for joining us today. It's been great to actually hear how this works and how it's worked and is working in the US. And so thank you for sharing your time with us at whatever hour it is there in the US. Presumably it's not too bad. It's not bad. Okay. Well, thank you very much. And I will have to wrap up by saying, please, the Australians on the call, the clock is ticking. We need those expressions of interest to proceed with this, even if it's a half a hand, half a digital hand, whatever that is, something between zero and one. We need that in by for the recording by the 26th of June, Monday, midday in your time zone. And in order to proceed with this activity, which would be actually that we'd be seeking proposals based on what we get in terms of expressions of interest. So please, even if you're just tentatively interested, let us know so that we can bring this into reality in Australia. Right. Well, in the case, thanks all. We will send out the recording and my thanks again to Saeed for staying up after 10 o'clock at night to talk to us. This is my pleasure. Thanks for your time. Thanks. Thanks everyone. Thanks everyone. Bye. Bye.


All right, I think I'm live here I'm not prepared for the stream at all, but it's gonna be fun. It's gonna be kind of a Chill out and rice and maybe do some scripting So welcome to the stream Should have some fun if anybody's actually watching this if I could get some yeas or nays on the audio I'd be appreciative of that First nice here analytic minded. Hello. Hello J. R. Hello Blanc. Hello Need in some yeas. Yes, excellent. I do have the air conditioner running in the background because it gets warm in this room when I have my computers on Excellent cool So Just gonna do some rising Mainly because I haven't had no other ideas For actually, you know Doing a stream so I just decided to take the easy way out. It's just easier 3 a.m. In Germany Yeah, I'm very likely to put you to sleep. Which is good White or fried rice. Yes, I know rising is a horrible word for Customizing your window manager, but that's just what they call it But what you're gonna do anyways, that's what uh But that's what the plan is so this is the rice that I'm using right now And if I go into my scripts folder what I'm the first thing I'm gonna do before I do when you're rising is What I'm gonna try to do is create a Rofi script that will allow me to Change to between my different rices Just by selecting a menu item that'd be really cool I don't know if I'm going to be able to do it or not. We're gonna see But it should be fun. I'm gonna try so what I'm gonna do is base this on my L change your scripts So my if I do them L changer here. This is my alacrity change your script. So if I actually run this L changer Like this I can select between different Alacrity rices. So if I wanted to go to Dracula, I'm now using a Dracula thing if I wanted to go to Ah, let's just say Tokyo night.  It'd be really cool Whether or not I'm going to be able to or not. We'll see Because the way this works is that it First it presents you with a selection of themes and then it whatever choice you make it takes one line out of the alacrity theme and Replaces it with the appropriate Theme that you chose so this first part here is going to be the hardest part because in My i3 Configuration file we'll start with i3 because poly bar is going to be harder If I've been into my config here I have Just one line that I need to change but the way that the Script works is that it relies on this being the only line that is called colors So in the alacrity configuration file the alacrity.yaml The only line that starts with colors is that one and it's really easy to set out that and Replace it with the thing that I need to replace it with What I don't know is how I'm going to do that with In this situation where I have multiple Lines that start with the word include Now I had an idea Because oops Because you can declare Variables here in i3's configuration file So if I were to Set Well no see because that's not going to work either because I have multiple things That have the word set because what I was thinking about doing is do set and then like Theme or whatever I get it doesn't really matter what I call it but and then Just change this word so in this case it'd be grub box and then down here instead of This I don't know if this would actually work or not But I would do something like dollar sign Theme you know I don't like I said, I don't think that that would actually work. You'd have I'd probably have to do the full path Instead of just the end of the path But I like I said, I don't think that that would work But that was my idea but again, I don't I'm somebody who's better with said would be able to easily search out that one line When if I could do Let's get out of this first and cp. I'll change her into rice changer sh Like that and then vim into rice changer that way I don't Now I do that Where's the r's right here rice changer rare.  I changer R. I changer. I really did not spell that right. It's not what I wanted to call it at all, but it's fine All right typing is hard Um, anyways that way if I make changes to this I'm not actually changing my L changer script That's not the middle of the night here Like I suppose I mean depends on what you decide decide with the middle of the night actually means um You guys can always see what I'm doing and I don't have to worry about it later but anyways So theoretically what I would love to be able to do Is do this so the first thing that would be would be change just to set And then dollar sign theme I think the I think the The problem is the dollar sign it because this is a bash script a dollar sign would also denote a Variable here. So I'd have to escape that somehow As you can tell I'm not a Very good bash scripter. So I'm probably gonna have to look some stuff up But that's how you learn. All right, let's go ahead and Open up a browser here And we'll open up go into Actually, that'll be better All right, and then um That's how to All right, that's how to Replace a single line in a script Using said Replace a single stack overflow And that right there is the reason why I hate cute browsers Like I only zoomed in like two spaces and it zoomed in for half a minute All right, let's use so this is how it this is how I did that space to action with the Use caret for checking beginning of the line space left to action Hmm The problem is here.  That's what this is the same functionality Um, why did I close my chat? Am I even still streaming? Why did I even go about closing the chat like that wasn't even on this workspace? That was really weird. I'm gonna navigate back to that Hey, Ben. How you doing? Oh and dt's here You're doing dt Pattern matching with said is an issue you could always add a unique comment above the line and then pattern match on that line Yeah, that'd be an option I'm not sure how I'd replace the line below it because if I The one that that I want to change First go back to this Go to that the line that I want to change is just This one here and really all it only needs to be the end because all the themes are Named like that. It's just a single word themes, right? so But I can't just say replace grovebox because that's not gonna always be the theme So if I change to you know, one dark or whatever That now becomes one dark and this said no longer works because it's that Let's see here. So space Beginning of the line This is the same way. I did it only Apparently I just started mashing buttons and moved everything all um Because I don't even now have Like my main firefox window closed and I have no clue why um That's really weird Okay Apparently I just like I said started mashing buttons like a like a monkey Oh, it wants you to use awk I have no clue how to use awk Let's see what else Said to replace the specific lines. Why is it that all stack exchanges require this Except all cookies, but they never remember that you've pressed except all cookies I'm building a basket for my virtual machine. I would like to know how to replace a single line in this document This line I want to change to this I have tried with t and said but cannot make it work Because they all start with a comment It's straightforward use the s command search Wait a minute I could just do the whole line couldn't I If I did the something like this Oops, damn it in the insert mode.  No, no dash. I just search the whole line the problem with the whole line thing is that if you have Like I have a dongler sign there. That's going into conflict. So I'm gonna have to exit out of that somehow Well, I could replace everything after it Because that's the so if I just did said Is it single quotes? Beforehand, yeah slash slash and then dot config I bet you it's gonna have to be in the difference Damn, I don't know because that's the end of the ending of that is going to be different every time That's why I wanted to place replace the whole line Putting a hard link like left WM doesn't work in this case I always forget how left WM does it, but I'm pretty sure Each of their themes has its own little file I don't want the whole thing. I don't have to replicate the whole file I just replicated the theme so like this This theme is just the the color codes, right? That's all that is Yeah, I've played around with when I was doing the DWM thing because I tried to do this with DWM And I put and I had it overwrite the file. That's how I did it with there, too But I don't know it seems inelegant to me. I don't want to go about doing that. Thank you. So thank you I just changed this to change oops Changed us to theme dot com and then Save that and cd into themes and just touch theme dot com and then Oops damn it in insert mode Always an insert mode Okay, so here instead of replacing a line would be replacing a Because I could just instead of being a it doesn't even have to be a sim like it could be a It just copies it, you know, I mean If You chose doom one, let's just say it would then do this instead of this Here It would just cp Let's just say I have a variable for the the path. So this is the path to theme into Path So in this case, it would be cp path to doom dash one dot com to The path To Uh, no old the old theme. So this would be old thing old thing to No, this I had it right the first time so it would be copying the new one the one that you selected to The theme dot com file Just like that and then they'd all be the same The issue is going to become in when I also because I want to do the poly bar at the same time So we'd have to have an and and statement there Let's go ahead and get the variable setup. So up here The configuration file for this is actually going to be A dollar sign home slash my repo slash i3 slash config This doesn't need This here at all Because we're not doing set anymore. So it would just So this is not going to be path. It's going to be Slash no slash theme The themes or themes themes That's the path Okay, and then So I don't actually have a doom one But that's the way it would work Is path that slash theme dot com and then I do the same thing for here. So The best way to do this is just to Yank this Like so and change this here to Bracula And That would also do that Honestly, don't know what to call to semi colons means. That's just the way the case statement worked um Anybody is curious where this this whole script came from I stole it from dt because that's you know, of course it did These came the original for this was One of his dm script d manuscripts And then I altered it for at alacrity And now I'm altering it for um i3 We're gonna do we're gonna worry about poly bar after i'm done with these so I'm gonna do this real quick And then yanking lots of yanking. I'm sure the Vim Wizards out there know how to do this faster I'm sure and some of these themes by the way don't even exist yet They will someday But if I can get this to work I'm gonna be on a Racing extravaganza Scott's here, huh? Hello Scott Yeah, I'm I know about the macros. I don't use them because I'm too dumb I'm just not smart enough to get my head around them Like watch the luke smith Um video on them Honestly, this can just be grub box because I'm never going to use grub box light like ever And I'm never going to use either the solar eyes, but those those can stand it because they're here for now anyways um chi pro These these are the only ones that I actually have so far so oops oceanic next Which is actually only going to be ocean To change that up here, too Wait a minute do I Ocean and oceanic next actually different things I don't need that then I don't have anything called oceanic next. I don't even know what it is to be honest. I don't remember what that theme looks like Okay, so the next one here I'm gonna soon delete the solar eyes one's gonna never using those ever I'm like an I'm anti-solarized um so paper color Tokyo night The real question is why I have one dark and do one here um, but okay moon fly and suno chi m a i a Which I actually think I do I guess I don't have that but I did I used Apparently I did that Before I did the broke it out everything into a theme Cat which I can't ever solve cat ppu ccin Okay, there are those so now What had to be one that I have so the one that I have that I could try so I could save this now and run dot slash r i this And the one that I have ready to go Would be I have one dark So if I change that and then restart i3 Ha ha that worked sweetness And the only reason I know it works is because the border for i3 changed so sweet I think also because I think if I did um Let's city up a level here And then into config I think if I went to actually sitting into my repo I3 sxhkd Then to sxkcrc One that I'm looking for here is the restart one. So if I did i3 Message dash reload at the end of this in an end statement. I could restart i3 at the same time I'm going to need to Remember that so if I go back here and them into a changer like this And at the end of all of these To an and i3 msg restart Like that. I don't know if that's going to work, but we're going to try it That'd be sweet Hopefully Running that from a bash script and that looks like there's an extra space in there now doesn't there Damn it. Why is there an extra space? It wasn't at the beginning then again, so An i3 dash msg restart Of course and that one didn't put a lot of space in between there Now I'm going to type it out again because I can't use the same trick And and i3 dash msg restart No What I'm hoping is that this doesn't actually restart the computer That'd be horrible like so good Wait a minute Restarts not the Yeah, it restarts the one that I want reload. Reload just reloads the configuration file And then I close that damn thing Okay, can I open that back up? Dot slash Right changer like this And then one of the ones that I have so we'll go back to grab box And wait, I wonder what that's what that's called. I need to go back here And let's see here the um CD themes That's what it's called. It's grab box. Good. Okay, so do that again. Go back to grab box Ha ha ha ha That's so good cool Okay, so the next thing is to incorporate the poly bar into it so That one's gonna be harder Because if I CD up a level a couple times And CD into poly bar I have two different things. So I have the themes. So if I CD into themes, I have all these And if I CD into the modules, that's a whole separate file. So If I vim into my config config file here I have Stop text messaging me Um, I have two lines that are gonna have to be changed So I'm gonna be doing the same thing. So if I open up a thing I'm going to CD my repo poly bar CD into themes Do I also hear and touch A theme iini And then cd into modules and touch Modules iini Okay, and then with the Theme with the script what I would want what I would need to do Is first Create a variable for it. So poly bar equals dollar sign home hmm It'd be better if I actually did it poly bar one Or just actually call this poly theme and then poly Mod equals Okay And then slash My repo poly bar Themes I think that's what it is cd my repo poly bar Themes yep And then that's the way that should work And then dollar sign home my repo Poly bar themes modules Like so Oh, yeah, I figured there was a better way to do the Adding stuff in there with them um despite the Amount of time I've been using them. I'm still a complete new about it um And I think I always will be Mainly because I learned something and then I forget that it exists But anyways, let's go ahead and uh We're gonna want to do here is Before the i3 restart thing do um cp What did I name those? Variables said I'm talking about forget poly theme and poly mods. So poly theme flash doom dash one i and i And then into poly theme Flash do uh This is going to be themed i and i Okay, and then it would also have to do the same thing for the modules. That's a horrendous looking thing. I mean The professional bash descriptors out there are like, what are you doing? You horrible person if tfl is watching this It's like no, don't do it that way I'm sure there's way easier to do ways to do this But I must do this within the scope of my skills Which aren't very high so In this one i'm changing those variables p theme p theme And change this i'm just changing this to mod Like that. That's way easier Why is there a space there when they're not not spaces anywhere else? Okay, so and and copy theme doom one i and i theme i and i okay, and and cp mod flash doom one dot What did I call those? cd modules oops my repo poly bar themes modules so Oh, I named those things horrible things and I um I think what i'm gonna do here is is Change those names because I do not want to have to type all those out. That's horrible um, so move I could do All right, hold on. So I got ranger bulk rename oops now You got to select those that's right. I forgot how that worked bulk rename and then just control v Oops, I don't want don't need to change it control v so Then delete those right quit again and enter I love ranger That's so good. Okay. Um, you can quit out of that. Oops, I didn't Do I want to quit out? I don't need my repo poly bar themes modules Make sure it actually did it which it did do um the The ones that I have two different ones for are going to be a pain in the tuchus Because like I have two different grub box ones I have a grub box poly bar poly power line one which I'm using now And a regular grub box thing That's going to be interesting That means I'm going to have to create an extra one For the for the poly bar one. So dammit. Why did I close that again? It doesn't matter. Okay, go back up here. Oops Still in freaking in insert mode. So the grub box one I'm going to have to yank that out and do another one here, but do Dash power line And then copy the grub box one Yank Did I do that wrong? This is going to be grub box power line and These are the same but the poly bar ones will be the different Go back up here to the dim one one finish what I was doing so dollar sign mod flash So one dark i and i into dollar sign mod slash Modules i and i I think that's what I called it. God.  Okay I just have kept that open because I'm knowing I'm going to forget it like five different times. I've like freaking Alzheimer's or something Okay, so I think oh we need one more and and here not dollar signs now. There we go Okay, good, but that would change that so We took the I know I'm kind of ignoring chat. So I apologize. I'm sure they're Yeah, DT's they're helping me and I'm ignoring and I'm so I apologize for that DT Uh, you're probably doing it telling me to do things way different way better We'll see how this works Okay, so the easiest way to do this then would be then to I think I know and I was gonna have to do this again. I would have just done it, you know waited I'm sure again. I'm sure there is a Vim personnel in there in the chat telling me. Hey, you should this is how you should do it now Josh release of mandatory neofetch you wouldn't like my neofetch um There you go Yes, I am not using gentu I tried to install gentu again after I borked it And it didn't go well, maybe again someday, but yeah, not today Not today Why did I call that one dark up there? Because I did call it one dark up there That should be doom one Like that. Yeah, that's better some Dracula Dracula And we set up butterf s snapshots. Yes, we did but nobody taught me how to Do a Emerge overlay or a portage overlay or whatever that was called and the only way to install timeshift apparently is to do that So but before I learned that I installed stdm And stdm ruined my gentu install I still have it. Uh, I have it on hard drive. So by all means you can help me fix it But not tonight Tonight we're doing this Because this is what we've chosen to do I should just call that grove and then Well, and then I didn't copy that whole thing What I'm gonna do instead of copying that whole thing is go back here And copy from here down so Yank That's what I should have done begin with Instead of having to do that whole thing We're to that p now that's there for a random reason Then because this is the only part that changes Dash power line I think that that's that would work. We're gonna have to try that. I'm gonna have to Also this one here and then Okay, so we got Throwbox Throwbox power line And then monokai pro Again, I don't know why I need to call it pro because it's the only monokai I have So I could have just changed that but it's okay Done now And like my are you saying something that I did was messed up? What did I mess up? I mean, I'm sure I did Um, this is getting more convoluted by the second This is monokai pro This would be way easier if I just put a space in between them So let's go ahead and close this this is going to be way easier if I can see the whole line of one line Instead of having it wrapped So throwbox Throwbox power line Dracula monokai pro all the way done Yep, okay, and Nord But you don't actually have yet, but that's okay. I am making automatic writing script. I'm doing it the hard way Like I'm sure I'm doing this the hard way, but it's okay. Um Maybe when I learn to do something better on my own Uh, I won't have to do it the hard way again or I'll be able to redo it I guess but Um, so this is ocean So So Well, I spelled that wrong Okay, and then tomorrow night dash night And I think you have two semicolons in the middle of the grovebox line Of the grovebox line I don't see it Oh, but I do have one here. Yeah the grovebox power line. Yeah, there we go right there. Yep Sure do And it needs to go at the end And actually this is the that's what I get for copying that wrong so And this needs to be why did I have a period there? Yeah, that's not you're right. You're doing that don't no periods i3 dash msg restart and then So, okay, thanks for catching that analytic minded.  Did Nord all the way through did ocean all the way through Did tomorrow night Not all the way through dash night That is good now paper color I think paper color is the only white theme I have on here the light theme All the paper color I Imagine how messy this is going to get when I get more rices. Oops paper color There's that one Okay, let's Oops, Tokyo night and Tokyo night And Tokyo night oops So, okay, and then one dark one of these I don't have to change too much because I already had one dark there one dark And one dark just delete this okay moonfly moonfly And moonfly moonfly Okay, and then uh sanakai I'm not The only sanakai one that I'm ever going to use is is is Maya. So we'll just delete that up here. I Okay, and then this one here and this one here. So, okay one more It's the hard one can't who Sin why not set up some leaks of that because This was just I don't know the same D's here to me. I don't know why Um, I'm sure I'm sure there is a better I've already said this once or twice time. I'm 100% positive there are easier ways to do this But I would not be me If I did not do things the absolute hardest way I'm sure that there would be a better way What I could have done was just create um Variables to all of these so each um Path that would each thing would have its own path variable So I just do cat boosene copy cat boosene Or how about how you pronounce it for each of these and you wouldn't have to Have spelled it out, but I've already done the work now. So I'm not going I'm doing it. Maybe I'll redo that later All right now. It's fine. I want to see if this works so Save out of this Now we're in grove box power lines. So if I change to It would have been just better. I would have just been easier just Dot slash What was it rice changer like this? Okay, so the one that I know is there. So if I do this Cannot stat grow box to i and i because it's not called grove box. It's called grove so back up here I'm pretty sure that that's what that is the problem because the p-theme here is actually just called grove Because consistency is beyond me. I bet you that's what's called cd Harry po pa poly bar themes less It's called grove box in the themes Am I going to kind of find it cd modules And it's called grove here. Okay So in the modules one So This one here. Oops back up here. Damn it Put your keep fingers on the right buttons box. That's right Damn it. I should have just kept it open How many times have I had to retype this path simply because I closed the window um I forget what I was looking for Oh the power power line one was the power the power line is also growth. Okay. All right, so This is grove box power line Okay Or is it? All right It is growth power line Okay, and the Themes is just growth box. Okay So the power line one here is just This This here Is growth box and Yeah, I kept it open this time. That's what scratch pads scratch pads or four. Damn it Um, and then I think I think that's right Now if I just choose grove box still no Still not can't find grove box i and i grove box i and i so they can't find that because I don't G u r v b o x I wouldn't wait. I wonder if I have the path wrong Well, that's because I didn't change this name here P theme matt p theme there we go um There we go I think that's gonna be better now Still no, okay Poly bar themes grow box. No such file or directory that my repo poly bar themes modules CD my repo poly bar themes Modules grove box Because it's still called grove matt.  I'm gonna it's still let me Catch that other thing so um This part here Is called this and I believe This is going to be exactly the same Still no, okay I'm missing party Part of your comment josh I'm sure there isn't any cat pussy Sorry no But put the themes into a folder with your correct file names then just sim link the folder to the next That writes. Yeah, but I don't want to have to redo the whole configuration files. What I'm If the way left wm does is they literally have a whole configuration file for each um theme And I don't want to have to do that Maybe I'm being stubborn about it Yeah, I should just rename the files and keep them consistent. Oops Back over here.  This is going to be groove box as well That should work now. They're consistent Hopefully All that's even worse. Okay, so messed up something else now. Um All of our themes modules grow box line seven will no such file a directory What underscore not dash. Okay All right. Yep. I knew I was going to do that That's not the error that I was causing but at least it's fixed that Um So that's your path to grove box com dot com Powerline grove box dot i and i That didn't actually get into that So that did it did that fine? Oh boy. All right.  All right. So let's focus on this first. So mod modules i and i That's right grove box i and i mod modern p theme My repo poly bar theme is modules My repo poly bar theme. So those are right The one that we're trying to do here is the grove box one so cp path grove box.com The path theme.com.   This is dumb cp path the grove box.com path the theme.com and and cp path p theme slash grove box dot i and i to theme dot i and i and and cp mod grove box dot i and i modules dot i and i That should be right and in restart. Okay You're asking about the eww just thing. I don't know. I don't really schedule anything out. Um, usually it's whatever suits me I know if tfl was here He he'd be shooting me in the face or something with a bullet Like just to just retire from bash scripting mat. You're you're bad at it Um, but I know I'm bad at it. So I never claimed to be good at it All right, so now if we choose this one It did not actually restart poly bar don't know poly bar Why That's because We're getting an output there Why would you have an output success true? um And just restarting poly i3 which should just restart poly bar All right, let's try one of the other ones One of the ones that I know I have One dark I have one dark But still no poly bar And I'm getting a and I'm getting an output when there should be no output. I don't understand That it's going to have something to do with the auto reload functionality of poly bar I've been trying to clean my home and Requiring instructions to resign g g k r c 2 don't can't ever I think you had to set a Environment variable phone without question Do you need a dash in the script? Do I not have a dash in the script? What do you mean? I need a dash in the script And oh you two were talking about that mistake I made with grab box. Did I still do I still have that? No, I fixed it right here but The radically this should be underscore two, but that really doesn't matter because that's just the choice um The question is why when i3 restarts Why poly bar doesn't start up with it and even if I do a manual restart of poly or of I3 my poly bar does not come back so CD my repo poly bar That's because it's replacing it with something different All right That's because i'm a dumbass. Okay.  I can't do it. It's obviously it's obviously beyond me Okay, the grubbox power line one is wrong so That's because I didn't put a The end part here. So dollar sign mod slash grow Modules Dot i and i that's where that needs to be. Okay Did I do that in other places too? Gonna find out eventually um Try again go back here to grubbox power line Uh, it still didn't work. No such file direction cannot stat grubbox power line But that file exists Oh, because there's no i and i at the end of it good lord matt Seriously, i'm pretty sure i'm pretty sure That I should just pack it in Because these are stupid mistakes Try again There we go and matt Yeah, I got there eventually The good news is is eventually i'll catch my own mistakes They try not to rely i'm trying not to rely on uh chat to catch the stupid mistakes But I still don't understand the output why you get a successive equals true true after that but As long as it works, I guess it doesn't really matter um eventually I'm gonna go through and Add in the ability to also change my alacrity theme at the exact same time So that's going to be another and and statement, but that's not going to be tonight because It's probably just easier to keep that race separately Damn That's good.  Um We're saying this is the dumbest way to do this The sim link thing probably would work better But this works for me and it's working now. So That is really cool. So what other themes do I actually have? So If we do an ls here, what themes do I have? So if I change to dracula here Let's first do l changer into dracula go back to go to this That my alacrity theme is right and then do dot slash right changer Like so and slug dracula and Here we go Sweetness The uptime module is going to be broken every single one of these because I use it now and I didn't when I created this theme so Yeah, that works guys that really works Yeah, it's good. It may it may be in elegant, but it works Uh, how long have I been streaming now? I've been streaming for an hour and 13. I think I have time for rice Why not do a rice? So it's going to be one of these races that I need that I don't have yet. So Which one should I do? Doom one is basically one dark. We have grevox and dracula and grevox power line monokai nord Ocean tomorrow night. Let's go ahead and look up tomorrow night. So let's go to Here open tomorrow night theme right here Okay That's not helpful. Thank you Thank you so much Duck duck go. You're utterly garbage as per usual Tomorrow night theme them There we go I believe actually That doesn't in fact have the colors right on it. I see the point I wonder if it's in the wiki No Do we get a palette here? I need the palette I mean we kind of get the palette but that's oh there it is right there Tomorrow night right there. That's exactly what I need and it's even laid out You know good way for me because I can use though. I can use that Copy that go back here. Oops this one here. Okay, so we can get out of this CD into CD my repo i3 Actually go to do the poly bar one first poly bar one is going to be the hardest And then themes ls And we're going to I believe I called that so we're going to vim into tomorrow dash night i and i And paste these Now these aren't in wrong order, but that's easy to do to use ctrl v Which is only going to work Actually easier to do it this way ctrl v Like so Like so and then I believe I have a space here what to do Okay, and then I think that that is How they're structured never remember Why did I get into vim instead of and then I don't know so I was like why are my key blinding is not working? There we go Make sure that they those are structured basically the same No, I forgot the colors thing so colors Like that now Open another one cd my repo poly bar And then themes We're going to go into cd modules And do an ls here do uh end them into tomorrow dash night dot I and I Somebody shouting at me and nothing I know you have videos On separate features and scripts you use an i3m. Do you have a video where you go through your workflow with these things? You put together kind of yeah, I I don't know what the video is called though It's probably about two months back or so.  Um, anyways, what we're going to want to do is cp Dracula Actually, we're going to cpu grove box power line into tomorrow night dash night I and I because It's going to be basically the same Firm into tomorrow night dot i like so And then We can change the colors. So let's make this a little bit bigger um So what we're going to want to do here is change the colors so the focused background color Is not going to be orange It's going to be Green oh wait. I'm gonna have to change that Because these cannot have uh Capital letters so this is going to be background Current I know there is a vim thing that would Uh a key binding that works for this but don't remember what it is Save that okay now This is just going to be background okay, and then The unfocused I don't actually have a foreground there do I yes I do yep foreground those could Probably are going to be staying the same Active workspace on unfocused monitors. So this can be Comment I said the stupid name for a color, but it doesn't really matter Although if if I use comment, I don't know how the I think that needs to be changed around um It's going to be That's going to be on the other monitor that's unfocused But has a that is on screen So the way I have that right now is I have the color But I could just do that the same I could change the foreground to like um Aqua And change this just the background to uh background I'm pretty sure I just changed this word to the same word, but it's okay. Uh, let's see This is going to change to red And uh this one here is going to change from foreground or this one here to background. So Okay Line of current line. Oh, yeah, it's going to have to change Uh for whatever reason this will not let you use capital letters at all and in fact There's no you can't use a space either. So um I I don't know why that is but it is it is true Um has something to do with probably something to do with python. I'm guessing um Anyway, so those are done. So the the thing we'd have to change here. So let's go to music Here so Actually first we got to change the arrows So arrow zero is the one that is at the end So We're going to change. We're going to decide what colors We're going to use for the arrows. So I think that the colors we should use are We might end up doing is doing more more more colors if we Actually, I think I am going to do that. So we're going to do more colors So that means we're going to need more arrows. So we'll yank this And paste it a couple times The problem with doing it this way is that this is going to make this one different, you know what I mean? And if when it's different, that means when I change things things are going to break Specifically I'm going to have modules in the configuration file called They don't exist in other themes Trying to think if I actually want to do that although What I might end up doing is for those these power line ones is create its own config for it And then change the config with the script later on but for now, we'll do it this way. So We'll go here That would explain why the it doesn't allow lines Makes sense At one point I was going to learn python and then I realized I wouldn't get enough of any other programming language. So my knowledge is pretty, you know, not high anyways So colors that we're going to do so we're going to do The foreground content foreground. So this is going to be the color of the Arrow itself and that's going to be that's the first one can be yellow um, I think the background So this one can be orange the content background I Think this is going to background for all of them. And then let's see here Maybe blue and then Maybe Green and then maybe Purple Also, I think I didn't change this number to the right thing before Okay, save this And open up my repo poly bar Like so and then go to config See this is where it's going to end up being a problem because all my other configuration files none of them have arrows three and four so arrow one arrow two arrow three arrow four This is going to go back to arrow one is fine Okay, save that um And when it doesn't have the we can now go back to five and go to my scripts folder do dot slash rice changer and change to tomorrow night Because that doesn't exist yet. Okay. We can't actually change to it yet because that file doesn't exist yet So we're going to go back to it and do that in a minute Once we're done here so we can actually save this And quit out of this here And now the music ones so Here's where we're going to actually I probably should have kept that open. So do I still have CD up a level then config so Music is going to be arrow zero so we're going to need to remember the arrow zero is Yellow so music is also going to have to be yellow This was way easier with brov with only two arrows So the prefix foreground is going to have to be something that's going to be seen on top of yellow So in that case, I think I was going to have to be background Or or current I guess it doesn't really matter. We'll see which one looks better. So the background is going to be yellow Like so And the format foreground which is going to be the color of the icon should also be background or Whatever it doesn't really matter. So this is going to have to be yellow This is really hard when you can't see what you're doing. So The next one is weather, which is right here and that's going to be Arrow one Which we set to Orange Just go back to the weather So the foreground again is going to have to be something that is seen on orange and I think this is a Light orange. So I think that the background would also work here Well, so Orange And this one here would also be foreground. So or background Which isn't confusing at all orange Yeah, I know I should think of more general names, but Like I said, if I would not be me if I didn't do the things the hard way So The next one is going to be uptime Which is Arrow two And that is blue. So uptime so So the background The foreground for that one should also be I think back going to work well for that as well and might as well try to stay consistent And this is blue And same thing here, okay, and then The next one is Memory Two so and that's arrow three Which is green. So To This the green is probably also like said, we're going to try to stay consistent. So this is going to be background And this is going to be green And this one should be background And green like so And then the next one is cpu two which is arrow Four Which if we did purple, okay, so cpu two Like so, okay, so this is the one that has them back So purple, I think again, we'll try to stay consistent. So background and then purple background And purple so that was the Cpu two arrow one which is One is for the date. So arrow one oops Arrow one Which is orange. So The last one is date So the foreground Is background background Orange And the That's because I changed the wrong one. Why the hell did I was doing that one date? There we go. Now we're in the right space foreground background and oops orange and background and orange now Yeah, I know I should change the variable names I probably will someday go ahead and clean those up so that they're all the same names in Each of the themes But that's not gonna be today For now, I'll continue to do it the hard way All right, so that's all the modules I believe so we can quit out of that cd up a few levels And another level because I think of foreign officer cdi three themes And what we're going to do is cat grow box and not cat grow box. We're just going to cp grow box Into tomorrow dash night dot comf And we're going to tomorrow not that comf. Okay, so The border Is going to be orange which I wish we could just type that so de 935 So the background ground is these are going to all exactly so it's de 935 f de 935 f and de 935 f Now the inactive border can be the foreground color so c5 c 8 That's a 9 8c 6 And then period oops damn it c5 c 8c 6 c5 c 8c 6 period period now Now if I go to workspace 5 and run the same thing and try tomorrow night again I still didn't work because In the themes. I don't have the tomorrow night dash i and i theme so three dd dot dot olibar themes Did I spell it wrong?  It looks weird right tomorrow tomorrow. I should be right nano is better than them somebody block that guy I'm kid I kid I kid all right uh make sure I spell all that right try again and this And how did that uh We don't have poly bar again because we must have messed up something What would we've messed? How could that possibly have changed? All right, so we're going to go into Three again. We're in the poly bar. So see up above old dot slash Launch.shc what errors I get my next shutting down poly bar i3 um poly bar theme Stream.ini 3 key name current line is empty So it's calling the Don't I save this? There we go. Uh, yeah, then it worked out. Well, that well did it. Okay um I messed something up there That's obvious First I'll change your Changed in tomorrow night. So that is the same theme. There we go now In my grove box theme, how did I get the Theme before it to be the same as the theme after it so This was way easier with just two colors by the way way easier maybe All right, we're gonna have to go into See the oops close that seating to themes Them into grove box seating to modules Them into grove box poly bar Like so and then go back down to here And see how I worked this out. So the first one is music so the format the format foreground The background was the same as the arrow color And then the next one was weather The background color for that one Was the same as the arrow color of That one So how would you do it with multiple colors? I think I use I put trillium notes in a Top five videos at one point trying to think Because these are supposed to blend together then it's not supposed to be space between them Get your mind around it. So in order for that to happen The background color of the module that comes before the arrow has to be the same color as the arrow Which is gonna look weird I think you're only gonna be able to have two colors I'm sure there's a way and I'm just not thinking of to get multiple colors Arrow foreground needs to match the colors before it so instead of So let's get out of the wrong one. So them into tomorrow Night again, so The one weather One here. So that needs to be The one that comes before it is arrow zero So Arrow zero Is yellow. I don't have to go back. I can see it right there in front of my face, man Go here to weather instead of having this be orange Have this be yellow I don't know if I don't think this is gonna work.  I don't know because it should have What because this is the weather module and we changed the background, but it didn't actually change the background I'm sure That it's easy to do I'm just not seeing it because reasons Too much for my little brain to get around apparently Um I'm not sure why that didn't change though Oh, I know exactly why I didn't change. Um because the we're not changing You have to do a dot slash This again and change to my night. Oh, I know exactly. All right. That actually helps me. Okay, so the All right, so go back to here Change this back to orange. This needs to be changed back to orange like so And the arrow one needs to be yellow not orange Okay, and then arrow two Needs to be orange not blue And and arrow three needs to be blue Not green And arrow four needs to be green Not purple and I actually I'm gonna need another arrow for purple Five again, I probably should just call that purple but Change this to purple I think actually no The purple one just needs to be Oops I might have to just mess around with that last one and go back here and change arrow four Right before I think this needs a change into to arrow five save this Go back to five run the script again I still messed that up somehow somehow Oh, the next debbler is here. How you doing bud? How's the baby? Yeah, breaking Benjamin's awesome. I've been listening to it like crazy so That's the right colors Those match up here and those match up here and that makes you appear and that's here and that matches up here um the I have a feeling like I'm off one like I shifted everything over the wrong direction is what I feel like That's what I feel like is that is I shifted everything over too far one the wrong direction so Hmm I know that looks ridiculous though Finally got him to go to sleep. That's good Many days where I just think that I don't I have no I don't have offspring I'm sure they're joys, but I don't think I'd be very good at it You know, I just don't know I'm obviously doing something stupid here. It was so much easier with just two colors Especially when one of the colors was the background color of the bar In order to get this one here to seem to overlap with that one This should be orange with the background color There's a space between it All these were the right color before The first one is yellow. This this one should stay orange This one should be blue This one should be green This one should be purple And this one should be Again, it doesn't really matter. I don't want to change that again I wonder if the background color needs to be exactly the same thing So if we change this to yellow Change this one to orange Change just the blue And you just went to green No clue if this is going to work or not. We'll just have to undo it if it doesn't Purple I don't know why That keeps doing that and just went to orange And it's not we're actually going to run the script Tomorrow night Well, that's closer. There's no more spaces Let's see here So back to three here Now the arrows aren't showing up at all because they're The wrong ones so If we shift all these arrows Like this background color here Should stay background Wait a minute. Hold on a second. I wonder hold on a second Hold on a second. I think I've I've had a stroke of inspiration This could be completely wrong obviously, but now we run the script Tomorrow night Come on work work work work work Look at that. I figured it out. It only took 20 minutes Whoo. All right, cool The other week when I tried to do 10 races in in two hours or whatever it was There's a reason why I didn't get to that 10 to the 10 races. You can't do 10 races in In an hour. So anyways, wow Look at that That's that's a complete win works sweetness The like I said, the only problem I'm going to be having is when I wanted to go back If I wanted to go back to my grove box power line I don't think it would work now Because the arrows are different now a couple of them are still here but now that because I have Arrows here this needs to go back to era So I'm going to have to have in the power line ones. I'm going to have to have the its own Modules right section Or I'm just going to have its own configuration file But that's a problem for another day Because I am done. I've been streaming now for an hour and 52 which is about half an hour longer than I normally do. So Yeah, wow, uh, thanks everybody who's watched the watch the stream. I uh, I do appreciate it I definitely had some senior moments there for quite a long time I did eventually figure out the things that I need to figure out If you're interested in any of these races or the script that I wrote Those will be up on my get get lab Sometime tonight. I'll upload them so that you can give them all try Or you can, you know, I do happily accept pull request or push request or whatever they're called and if you improve them That'd be cool As long as they still work obviously, but anyways, uh, that is it for me this time before I go I should take them to my current patrons. You can support me on patreon at patreon.com slash linux cast Thanks to robert said devon patrick fred kramer trydevil Antoine uncle bonehead kb griff's lounge maklin jessime dual steve super glennick scaric samuel tgb keith andy gary ross Mitchell j. Doug carbon data germy shone odin marney edwardo arcsner elliott mizlau merrick camp drashley peter a crucible dark penance experiments p.m. Our life when in philp. Thanks everybody for