Director. Since there's only four of you guys, might as well introduce and tell us why you guys are, why you're interested in walking our control plan. I'm Thomas Weiss. I live in the city and I thought we'd taken care of this 25 years ago, but I guess not. I've been working on it for 25 years. After having had my backyard dug up to take care of this 25 years ago. I'm Jim Ikeberry. I live on Helm Street in my professional life. I work for the U.S. Department of Agriculture. And currently I do a lot of weapons restoration beforehand. I helped our engineers do a lot of waste storage facilities. And I'm curious to see what you guys have in mind because I know it's great to get treatment when you've got low flows. And it's bad when you've got high flows and you pass the treatment. I'm curious if there's any storage options that were done as a cost analysis comparison. And obviously I care about the water quality. Ken Russell, I know some of you guys. And I just care about clean water and I know how hard you all have worked over the years to address all this. And I don't like seeing people giving you a hard time. Alright, so we'll keep this very open as in depth as you guys want it. We'll kind of let you guys engage the conversation. So stop us if you guys have any questions. I have a little video for, I was not sure what the audience would know about CSOs. So we have just a general overview of how a CSO structure works. My opinion is mostly separated as we've talked about. We've gone through a series of separation projects beginning in about 92 where we started with 25 CSO structures and we're down to six. So we've made a lot of headway but we still have the last six to take care of, which is what we'll talk about right now. So basically under normal conditions all the sewage goes to the plant, no problems. But when we get high rainfall, no water either directly inflows into the pipe or infiltrates the pipe. As we saw in the video causing the flow, the amount of flow in the pipe to rise. And then we would have, does everyone understand what wet versus dry weather is in overflows? So dry weather overflow would be, if you had an overflow advantage. It would be a blockage in the pipe that would cause something like that, like a blockage. We have, we've had blockages before that are very rare. Usually we're able to open them up with our equipment before it discharges to the river. So if you're able to catch it before the sewage reaches the river then it's not considered a discharge event. It did make it to the waterway. We get a number of days. Well, we haven't experienced overflows from snowmelt alone when it's snowmelt combined with rain. That's a different question. Yeah. So you said snowmelt alone? I don't believe we've had any. It would have to be, I mean, so. My condition was really hot several days prior. But really, really hot. Like, don't experience overflows. I don't think anything that extreme that. But it does take a lower rainfall event. In the wintertime the ground's not pervious to soak up the water. So it's actually a lower trigger level in the winter, even if it's not combined with snowmelt. Because it can't get into the ground. So here's kind of an outline of our CSO separation and how this whole timeline started. So in 37 the sanitary dam was constructed, which is right out here by the old deminem beverage. The sanitary dam is just built to keep the water. The solids below water, basically this before any treatment plant was constructed. The sewage was just straight to the river. And to keep the odors down, the water level was kept up. That was sort of the first stage of treatment or dealing with sewage in the city. Is that still there? It is. It's not, it's got some damage. And it's not just upstream of the new fridge? Yes. Maybe I served that purpose. I haven't heard that, but that's very possible. So then in 62 we built the water treatment plant, which is now called the Water Resource Recovery Facility. And in that same year, all the structures built at the same time. So yeah, it's called the Interceptor Project, where they took the pipes that went straight to the river and they intercepted them with them in trunk lines to carry all the wastewater to the wastewater treatment plant. So in 62 all those structures, the 25 structures were installed. And then in 92 the first 1272 order, which is our discharge, it's our order from the state about how that was issued. And then we began in 1995 our CSO separation projects. And from 95 to 2009 there were a series of projects. So we've eliminated, well, six, 15, no, 20 of them. The original 26. So then in 2016 a new CSO rule came into effect was having to create the long-term control plan. For the ones that you've already separated, is there any treatment for that stormwater? Are they discharging into waters without treatment? They've been blocked off, so the water does not go over the outfall or to the outfall. So the separation project, it took the catch basins and the drainage structures that were on the street out of the sewer main from the collection pipe. And that pipe is not treated because there is treatment through the sumps, so there's a two foot space below the pipes for sediment to collect. But as far as really the only treatment is sediment collection. And currently there's no regulation on stormwater, treating stormwater. So now we, current day, we are developing the long-term control plan. So that's why we're here tonight. So on the screen you'll see this map here to my right. And it shows the different events that occurred in 2018. So we have six structures, as I said. The structure with the most overflow events is located at Bailey Avenue. It's called CSO number three. The second most frequent overflow structure is at Taylor Street, which is CSO one. On this chart what you'll see is it says average inflow. That's the flow into the treatment plant that is causing the overflow back. So our treatment plant on a daily basis will treat on a dry day. If it's below really five million gallons, there is not. So in the worst-case scenario you've experienced so far, how many... So the treatment plant doesn't, it's never actually exceeded the capacity of the treatment plant within the storm before Irene. So the restriction is really the river crossings. So we've got to take all the bulk of the city and cross both the North Branch and those siphon lines to get that wastewater to the point. There's just too much volume and too much velocity trying to get into it. So our treatment plant, which is off the page, can take around 10 million gallons. Right. I think the max design is 12. So let's just say 10 for ease. This line where the siphons discharge, so all the flow from the city pretty much comes down State Street through the siphon and then over Long State Street and then across the bale of the river. The majority of the flow all comes through that direction. So the line that discharges from there, we call it the trunk line. It's a 36 inch line from bale of to the treatment plant. The capacity of that line is 9.2. That's the hydraulic capacity of that line. So that's just under the plant flow, right? But the siphons, where they cross the river right there, they're only about 6.3. That's optimal. That's no sediment in the pipe. So there's some elevations that we're working on to see if there's other improvements, like adding maybe a third barrel of the siphon, maybe changing one of the barrels to a forest main. We're looking at some of those alternatives. But one of the main things that we're really highly leaning towards in considering is all this that was installed that we're talking about is of the 1960 capacity within the main. So if we line that section, you would now have 12.2 million gallons within that 36 inch trunk line to the plant. That's over the plant capacity. So check, check, those two really are not our problems. So then we look at the siphons and the two barrels of the siphon cross over at another factor specifically for CSO3. So we smoke a structure, and then it comes out a storm structure that's a cross-connect and we have a problem. So we recently did some investigation in the Beliav neighborhood. And we found three, one of them takes the one that's up here in the corner by sunset. It's a catch basin that's located on the corner of Sunset and Bailey, and it takes all the drainage from other parts. So that catch basin is directly tied to our sewer. So by eliminating that, then you take all that flow and put it in the bottom. So smoke testing is we just bought this machine through a roof train study under ways. One of the contributors to the sewer system is from a roof train. So the first year when we said we're going to be doing Clarengan App for a reconstruction project, let's go smoke that neighborhood and make sure that there's nothing else contributing within that neighborhood before we pay this. A huge reduction. So that's one big project for CSO, CSO number three. Another project is on State Street. There is a, I'm going to say a sag, but it's more like a siphon. So there was an obstruction in the way. Then they put the line. So they went right around it and they dipped it down and dipped it away. And that's what Steven will work. Yeah. It was part of the old steam distribution system for the state of Vermont. That's since been replaced and abandoned. So we just recently, within the last year, got the plans from state of Vermont. So that is a restriction point. And it's really, we're not able to effectively clean it with our equipment because it's got such abrupt bends. So we're pretty sure there's going to be a sediment built up on the bottom of that pipe. That'll be one of our proposed projects. It's near the DMV building on State Street. So those are, those are two projects, well, two series of projects that we'll have specifically relate to CSO three, 23 and one, which are really, other than 23, our most frequent overflows. We have other questions on. Yeah. Is this, like, the long-term website? We can make it available. Orca's recording it. So this whole presentation will be recorded. And we can put it on our website. The presentation can be. And when we're done with the long-term control plan, we should probably think about this for our CSO annual board and long-term control. We did a, this past year, we measured how much possible exfiltration was going through the pipe if the pipe was completely submerged within water.  Pretty significant with these old lines, the amount of water that actually seeps in through the joints and through the cracks. No, but if you were interested in that, we could record for that. I'm just thinking as you prioritize things, this is the higher priority to take out. Well, so that is a really useful tool for us because what that showed us is that when we have old clay lines that are really prone to infiltration by rehabilitating them or relining them, you will remove all that infiltration. So it's a tool that we can use to quantify how much you could fill the budget and then also what they specialize in is a confirmation that when the product is complete that you hit the values that you were. So this is just a 3D image of all of our CSOs. So CS03 is the one at Bailey Avenue. 23 is the two siphons also located at Bailey. Number one is at Taylor Street. Seven is the siphons that cross the North Branch of the Lewinsky River. Eight is at Main and Berry and discharges at the corner of the confluence of the Lewinsky and the North Branch. And nine discharges to the North Branch over by the Discranshery Bridge. All right, so here are some of the alternatives that as part of our long-term control plan that we are looking into, maybe they're already begun, or maybe it's not feasible and we are looking at some other methods. So the first one is installing flow meters at each of the CSO outfalls. We're currently, we have codes from a vendor to install those. Yeah, I'm really hoping to get some state funding. There's state funding assistance for flow monitoring equipment. So right now we don't have our monitoring for an overflow event. There's what's called a tell-tale block. It's a block of wood tied to a manhole string set on top of the overflow weir. And when that water level comes up, the block of wood goes to the other side of the weir and we check it and know we have an overflow. So it's an old method. It's how the city's been monitoring our overflow events since the start. But, you know, it's time to come into modern technology. The problem with the blocks is we have no way to quantify the volume that's been discharged, which would be a useful tool for us in sort of prioritizing some of these improvement projects is by knowing how close are we in an individual structure, how much volume do we need to get out of there to be able to eliminate that CSO. So that is something we hope to do potentially a lot of this time depending on the state funding, which we think we have a good shot at getting. It's a 50% subsidy through the clean water fund. Quick funding question. Is that the only funding avenue you guys have pursued? Have you talked to USDA World Development about any of their grants or loans that they offer? We're using them partially. We're using RD for the treatment plan, pursuing it from them. We haven't specifically talked to them in regards to CSO work, but we may pursue additional... Well, one of the big projects that hasn't been done as far as separation is East State Street, and we expect that we'll try to get long partial grant funding on design for that CSO project on East State Street. I will ask them to do that, but that's a good suggestion. I don't know how, if they get involved with historically been primary... They do a lot of infrastructure projects, you know, further. So another alternative is to reduce flows through separation. That has been one of our main approaches since the CSO elimination... That contribute to the CSO. There's a couple streets combined on the other side of the river, but they don't have to go through the site then. So the next is adding storage tanks to hold back flows. So this is something that we... There's the 92 report and the 2007 report that we have. They talk about quantifying how much volume is big. Right now, it's like 5 billion gallons is what I would say. I mean, I don't know based on data for like a five-year interval of storm. We haven't... I haven't seen 2.5, 2.8 inches occur in five years yet, so I don't really know what that translates to for flow into 2.2 inches in 24 hours is around 7 million to 8 million gallons. So it's a lot. But by lining... The lines we're talking about, that 36-inch line, you go from 9.2 to 12 million gallons. The siphon lines, you go from 6 to almost 10 million gallons. So we have... By lining in and of itself, we make our asset new again, we repair it, we rehab it, and the hydraulic capacity changes. It's much greater. That seems like a much more logical option, especially when you think about you could then get some of that stuff that's going to get the treatment in the plant, as the plant has the capacity. When you're talking about storage of that many million gallons, you're talking about acre or acres of space that probably doesn't exist in more peculiar or some kind of shockingly tall structure with ridiculous pumps that it sounds like that might be the most cost-effective ways to do that lining and to work with your existing system and it's also not creating the quality that you're glad there's a slick option like that. Then once we've lined all of our stuff and if we then still presented with a property, the volume that you have to then treat is going to be a lot less. So it then makes the treatment option much more feasible when you're not. So regardless, we have to improve our infrastructure. The 30 of these lines that we're talking about, something will need to be done to facilitate these lines. So whether that's using a liner, using a spray, a pipe bursting, or an open-cut, I mean, those last two, we really do not slip-line or like a geo-spray. So there's companies that come in and actually spray the inside with zero to one inches and reform your mic. Or a curative place pop-tree lining. So it's a site benefit over you. The beauty is you get both the infiltration and... I understand that, but... You have a primary objective of one over the other. So there's two answers to that. The main trunk line and the siphon lines, I would say it's reduced friction to increase capacity on some of our high groundwater areas. It's really to reduce infiltration. We have a little bit of a sequence later, but no, we have not laid out the whole schedule and when we're going to... So you're talking about storage... These are things that are required to look at through our permit? Yeah, and optimize the feed-race of weirs. But with flow metering... It's a mandate. It sets a scale like this. When you're talking about having to hold that many gallons, I mean, compared to the pool out there, how much bigger than the wrecked part of the pool? It's hard because it's flow rate-based. It's not just... It's in and out. It's not just stagnant. What's your water system? That's very... You can see the diameter of it. Another... This might be off the wall, but people are always talking about marshlands and swamps. If we could have... If somebody just could magically say you can have so many acres of swamps on where the system in theory could help, like the stormwater or... Well, you'd have to be treated. So there is an alternative. Let overflows happen and treat them when they happen. But it would require screening to take out the solids and as well as a disinfectant to either be UV. So that is an alternative that we would consider. I would add, too, that you... I need to have storage at the front end of those systems. And so then you run into your storage problem again. Because if you're going to get proper treatment, you need to have a certain amount of time through that system. And so if you had 10 million gallons coming through in a number of hours, they're just going to blow right through whatever it is that you were going to try to treat. And they oftentimes are additional to whatever storage and treatment you have. When we size them on farm systems, that's an additional cost because you still need to have some kind of a storage structure for the manure and the siloes and each egg and whatnot. And then you're doing treatment afterwards if it oftentimes adds cost and takes up a surprising amount of space. One last thought I wanted to add in mind that I know that you've had that one era of water pipes that turned out to be literally a bust for us. I would say that when you're looking at your options and long-term investment lining these pipes, I hope you all would consider which type of liner gets you the best long-term insurance and gets frost-heaving, causing long-term maintenance problems. A spray isn't as structurally sound for some reason as HDPE or whatever you just can just consider that. But maybe a little bit more upfront cost might get us an extra 20 or 30 years. Yeah, and that's something that we would look at. This option has 25 years, but it's going to cost a million. This one has 50 years of extra life, but it costs us 6 million. But then expanding the treatment plant, we are already doing a project at the treatment plant, and as we said, it doesn't really need to be expanded because we have more than enough flow to treat what comes in already. So as we briefly discussed, at screening and disinfection for each of the overflows, we haven't investigated this option specifically in too much in detail. Obviously, we would like to eliminate before we just accept. Okay, well, you have a cut. We know they have a cut. We just are going to keep putting a bandaid over it and the root problem has cost. No, it's okay. It takes less strain to make an overflow in the winter. We get more heavy rains in the spring, so we have found them in the springtime. It's sort of a combination of snow and melt and overflow. So we used to only monitor in the spring. The state didn't really consider the winter months. Yeah, it's very good. So then lastly is incorporate green infrastructure to reduce storm water flows into the CSS to the greatest extent feasible. As we said, we don't really have a lot of combined systems left. Our strategy has been to move and separate, to care about storm water quality, and we've done more swales and stuff like that. Looking out in the future where there's a likelihood of... Is there a vision of whatever it is that we do on this front that it doesn't preclude us from having some good options in storm water treatment as far as maybe not putting a structure in the space I'm just hoping that it would be a complementary link. If you're like, oh, we could put a swirl separator here and help with getting stuff out of that storm water before it enters in, and it's not going to somehow get in the way of... Yeah, so next year on Clarendon, we're looking at... So right now we just did a whole bunch of warnings and we're analyzing the groundwater table. What we're finding is that the water in that area is really high. So that means that the sewer main is most likely fairly submerged most of the time. So one of the things that we need to do, so it's going to be a new pipe, it's not going to have infiltration. But there's still going to be all that groundwater that's going to find some place to go. So by doing stuff like underdrain, wrapped in filter fabric, and sand bedded, we will end up treating some of the storm water. So we don't know exactly what we want to do on Clarendon yet, the subsurface water. And if we can figure out a good way to also capture road gone off and treat that as well. The calculations are you guys using fairly recent data. It gets at the fact that we've had about eight inches more in precipitation getting more of those downbursts in the summer. So our precipitation calculations come from... So in our rule it has mobiliar basically our target rates. I just hope you're using more modern data sets and not like a 1950 to 70 years. This is an extreme precipitation, so I've been here for over five years and as I just said, I haven't seen a five hour storm produced 2.8 inches. That's what the data set says, but... We talked, most of our streets were already separated. These state streets, not. The hindsight I wish we just upgraded all of our line sizes and treated it all I mean, our wastewater plan is very efficient. Yeah. Why would... An alternative of what if we fixed every pipe and reconnected every storm water connection. Would we still have enough capacity to do that and what would that cost? I mean, I know that sounds crazy, but you do have a... I didn't know that that thing... We have not looked at that. This plan, so we haven't done the long-term control plan. This meeting is really to sort of talk about what we're looking at and get people's input and what we should be looking at. I don't know that most of your taxpayers could afford that, but certainly we could include that as part of our analysis. We'll get some feasibility numbers in there. It'd be an interesting alternative because no matter what you're doing, you're spending millions of dollars over long periods of time and if you've already got things that are receiving that water and you could reconnect them to a system with upgraded pipes, could actually handle the whole blowing and from a long-term maintenance standpoint, you're treating everything in one facility versus having trucks going to each individual separate or including them out and maybe there's a way to... I think that'd be one complicated, complex cost analysis, but it'd be interesting if it could be figured out as C is an alternative. I see that as a trickle-back to that. Oh, I agree. Second phase can be... That makes total sense. When we have capacity, we can put CSO as a too big an artifact. This plan is really specific to CSO elimination, but that is a good point. We're just going to discuss some of the alternatives in a little bit more detail here. Alternative of the sewer siphons, one of them is to line up as we're talking. They're old. They're from 1962. They're made of cast iron, so they have really rough in terms of the friction. So we really need to line these and upgrade our siphons. In addition, our siphons have weirs. So two years ago, we did a study that looked at all the alternatives of these weirs and basically said, can we raise the elevation of the weir at all which will help with the amount of frequency that you will have tomorrow? So we're using the collection system. We looked at house services and how far can we raise up those weirs without floating basements. Adjusted those up. So instead of building big storage chains, we're using the existing pipe network to sort of store this volume. So we have, I mean, from way over here on the Bain Street Roundabout all the way to the waves of our plant, we're only talking six feet in elevation pitch over two miles of pipe. So it's very, very, very, very flat. So I mean, that's what we talk about storage and talk about volumes. What's happening is when we get really high rain amounts, the volume in the pipe moves up. So by adjusting the weir where it goes to the river, you allow for more. So we looked at the siphons and all the overflow structures and we raised most of them. I believe they're all risk-based. So one of the other alternatives is to reduce flow which is either through separation, well mostly through separation or through green infrastructure if we had more. Another thing is one of the things that we're using to determine whether there are stormwater connections in our sewer main. That's very useful so far where we've used it. I look forward to using it in other locations that it may bring something to light that we didn't really know yet. Raising the weirs, we already discussed some of the ongoing alternatives. So as we talked about, we're talking about capacity and the elevations between them. So our system is very vulnerable to sediment so we need to make sure that it's clean, and clean all the time because we need every inch. So keep our cleaning and maintenance primarily utilizing. It's a company that you've found a very good product. It's really for cross country lines primarily where you get, or this is a kind of poultry fields and the stem of the root. So in 2007, there was a root ball mass pulled out of the big trunk line that averaged about 300. When we talked about cleaning and maintenance it's very, very important for our system. We do have a plan so every five years the entire system is scheduled to get cleaned and then we start to do it again. However, looking at some of the CSO data from this past day in the report and looking at things a little bit more in depth and because we have hotspots. There are some lines that we probably need to clean almost every year until they get replaced. So we did, in 2013 we did the first really sewer inventory where we took every structure in the city, checked for infiltration, checked for inflow, grease, roots, inverts. And then since that time we've really done another study to actually inspect them but when we do our paving program we actually go in through all the sewer structures and evaluate the conditions of the pipes on that street. So you don't have like a for not for continuous. So we did it, we did the initial and we got that base inventory. So we know based on some of the overflow data. So you see Bayley Ave, right? 13 overflows. Why is that one more frequent than anywhere else? That you could take that data and extrapolate. Well, so we had, so we had this right now. We had, okay, Bayley Ave, we think that there's someone going on there. We went to go do the project. We popped a whole bunch of monitoring wells in different locations. Right now, right now. So we're going to be doing cleaning out this upcoming year. And we just had, we just did a whole bunch of things to take soils, to test for much different stuff. But then we converted those more holes into monitoring wells to gauge what the water subsurface. Yeah, so, I mean, our guys, our crews are in the structures a lot more than we are. And they will frequently come to us and say, something's not right at this structure. We do have so much clean water that we don't really know why it's always flowing. So then, It's a water main bridge. Yeah, it totally comes from a water mix. I mean, then we'll actually take that information and kind of go back and investigate. Yeah, work upstream. Okay, it's still flowing, still flowing, still flowing.  So that's kind of done on me. What we found is, because the pipes are primarily plate-tied. So the structures themselves are like, they're usually, I haven't really seen any. So to look for direct connections is where we really rely on them. So that leads to a rather question, like the roof trains. There has been a study done and suspected or confirmed. They're going to propose some ordinance language as part of the contract for potential incentives. So it's included. Yeah, there's a standpipe. And the question is whether there's like a marshy area. And what we believe is that the marshy area is directly and flowing, overflowing into the standpipe. But when you pop, man on cover is going to pop main street. One after another, it's clean, almost solid egg. Which is why that one little mini project that we found this year, and we're going to do, they're small, they're going to treat the project, but it has a huge value to the CSO, the long-term control plan. So we've already talked about the metering, the roof trade, the smoke investigations. So as we've been discussing, we're really proposing lining or upgrading and rehabilitating the majority of our lines from the wastewater plant all the way through the site. And so if they connect to a siphon or an overflow line, we're recommending lining it or resizing it. They're old, they need to be done anyways. If we don't, the cost is going to be pretty high. So we might as well. Here's just a graphical depiction of the sag that we have on stage tree. Even though it's more vertically down, over, and vertically up. Some of the other alternatives as discussed, storage volumes, weird adjustments, additional pumps, specifically at the siphon structures or the overflow structures, possible additional barrels at siphons or comparing one of the barrels to a force main with controlled flow. Green storm water to attenuate flows and treatment. Are there any other questions? So if you have a 36-inch main or something going into a smaller siphon, what we're seeing, drastically oversized or undersized, they really need to be improved back to their... They're designed for 6 million gallons or overflowing somewhere around 5 million. That's telling me that the siphon capacities are only running at about 85% optimum capacity. So I can improve it, but they have to answer a question if you have an outlet that's smaller, and yes, it would return back up a lot. Until it gets to that weird height which goes to the overflow. It's all elevation-based. There's 6 feet from traffic circle. So that's just basically flat, right? 0.0006%. And it's concrete-like, so it's rough. The percentage is very pretty low. We just started getting into... Do we have a push camera? There's a tricky... There's a range that's a little tricky. It's just it doesn't... We don't have a great... So above 12 inches to whatever size, it doesn't matter if we're good.  So that'll be part, obviously, that's really important. One of the things is we want to actually block off on our siphon barrels and put the camera down the siphon barrel and see what it looks like on the inside. We have no idea. So in 1962, we bought the Vactor in the 2000s. Before then, I'm not really sure that they were cleaned all that often, or ever. Before the city on the Vactor, it was a big project. You'll see tuberculation on the inside of that pipe. You'll see a whole bunch of stuff coating the inside of it. But to come back to the camera inspection, so it's very time-consuming. Due to limited resources, which is why we're really trying to work with crews to make sure that when we do a painting in the street, we're going to remind the street and put a lot of money in the street. We want to make sure that we know what's going on. Recently, we've really developed some really good connections with our crews about making sure that they're getting ahead of us the investigation work, which is why we have this summer and more stress-free. Yeah, it's also a really good storm, the state of the study. And very quickly, if you had just done camera alone, you probably would not have found some of the ones that we found recently. You wouldn't have found a series of really successful smoke projects. And why don't... What's the price for one of these? I want to thank you guys for all the work and planning you put into this as a citizen and taxpayer and somebody who knows enough about engineering to be dangerous. You guys have done great thought and I really like the prioritization. I think it makes sense for your plan. So I just want to thank you. As you work to finish separating these remaining CSOs, I guess I would hope that sometime in the next two to three years, you are able to run that probably crazy cost calculation to think about the magic wand situation where we know eventually we're going to have to treat our urban storm water and you're already thinking about separating your clean from your dirty water and that's all great stuff. But if we could, in some scenario, reconnect our storm water system where there currently is no treatment and we know there are balloons coming into our water courses, what would that cost and would we have capacity after we've lined all of our sewer pipes and all of the great upgrades that obviously need to happen first? Maybe it's even 10 years from now. It would be interesting to see if it didn't take $100,000 to ask the question. Would there be a way to have full treatment so that in some future Montpelier all the sewer is going to the treatment plant, all the clean roof water runoff is going to some place where it can just be a whole likely polluted storm water runoff as a path into the treatment plant as well. So I'll give you kind of a I think we can run I mean I'm thinking about how our system works and you know the hills at the base of the streets connecting them back and yeah maybe it's feasible. The one thing I do want to just think to consider is that we're talking about a 5-year design storm with a 2.8 inches of rainfall in a 24-hour and that would produce for us to be in compliance with the CSO rule we could see up to a 50-year design storm which would really create capacity if you did end up treating storm water I think it would have to be somewhat of a strategic approach that in an iterative process that you make sure that you weren't over allocating capacity because the last thing you want to do is GCSO compliance and then put all this stuff into it and then your direction. So that could be quite true. My hope would be that any future storm water treatment is thought of in a way that could be as systematic as possible so that the we as taxpayers don't get nickel and dimed because it just seemed like that just seemed like that if you come into one spot you can manage that and handle your long-term costs but if you've got all these individual little treatment plants that have to capture all the storm water that just seemed like the cost and the maintenance and all that could that's why we don't want to necessarily use the first approach of just treatment at every structure if we did that in 1992 we'd have 26 little treatment plants we're probably going to take it and maybe the other side of the north branch and we'll take that part of State Street and bring it to the plant but like Zach said, if you're looking at the rainfall that's how much water we generated it would exceed the capacity of the particular plant I'm thinking like if you look at a 25 year design storm a year like 30 million down I mean three plants to show you Our scale too small and within the city of Minnesota people really worked their soil I mean more spongible so they'd absorb more water Well no, I think there are things like rain gardens you could do at your house and collect your roof runoff and run against a vegetation that really probably the challenge most of the year faces is a lot of clay soils here but with the right plant things I think every bit helps I could add to that that if a landowner is interested I'd recommend they contact the Wienewski Natural Resources Conservation District they could come out and do a compaction test I know when we've looked at soils from a USDA standpoint if somebody is really heavily manicuring their lawn it can be just as compact and sometimes is some really urban impacted areas and shockingly impervious because of how they've managed it and because they're keeping the grass at two inches and not allowing roots to get infiltration down there so there are ways with the local conservation districts that you could there's a lot of them are interested in storm water related projects including the Wienewski District in particular which covers this area in addition a lot of work they do in South Burlington so they could give technical and financially even small financial when they're talking about $2 billion for the Lake Champlain impaired waterways how much of that overlasts what you're talking about or what other things what we'll be looking at here locally so I hope they can fund for to fund some of these alternatives we're talking about the long-term control plan so the Lake Champlain Basin is an impaired waterway under the EPA the state's going to have to figure out how to it's going to be a $2 billion thing across the state so what is that going to look like here? currently my employer falls under the municipal general roads permit RGP, municipal general permit so we're covered under that program so there's communities like Burlington that are MS4 communities which actually have to treat the amount of stormwater based on impervious area so we fall into kind of a unique category where it's on size with a lot of more rural community callas or dirt roads so right now we don't think that we're going to have a huge compliance problem we're actually very very lucky with the level of compliance that we already have under the basin inventory and this is all ways that they are trying to tackle so there's one way is the long-term control plan which we approved through the state to pick out these CSOs for water quality so every community we are MSRG municipal roads permit all the costs that's stuff that we have to work on yeah so those those were about $10,000 per unit plus a little bit of an annual we already have SCADA so we would we would tie it in but that's the only monitoring cost that doesn't include having LCS actually hooked up and set up our SCADA to the monitor it's not required the annual cost is fairly low the $2,000 for all of them per year so that's going in okay


Hello, and welcome to this presentation of the STM32MP1 Trust Zone Address Space Controller. The Trust Zone Address Space Controller, or TZC, is intended to filter DDR accesses according to security rules and non-secure master address ID. This is a simplified diagram of TZC. TZC is composed of two filter units, one per AXI port. Filters are working concurrently. The two filters are controlled by a common control register set via the APB interface. TZC is composed of two filter units working concurrently on two AXI ports. Access filtering can support up to nine regions. Region zero is always enabled and covers the whole DDR address range. Regions 1 to 8 have programmable start and end addresses with a 4 kilobyte granularity. A region can be assigned to one or both filters. Secure and non-secure access permissions are defined per region. Non-secure accesses are filtered according to the non-secure master address ID. Regions controlled by the same filter must not overlap. Controlled permission checks can be signaled either with an AXI bus error or with interrupt or both. TZC is programmed via a 32-bit APB4 interface. TZC configuration is supported by secure masters only. Read access path supports up to 256 outstanding transactions to DDR. Some gatekeeper logic is used to enable and disable each filter. TZC can support speculative accesses. Note, TZC has two cycle latency. Fast path with reduced outstanding capability is not supported in the STM32 MP1 series. TZC programming should observe the following guidelines. Region zero is the base region covering the full address range and is always enabled. Region zero can be used to catch any access outside regions 128. Regions 128 must not overlap each other when assigned to the same filter. In case of reconfiguration by semi-static programming, all accesses or gate must be blocked before reprogramming filter settings. TZC access filtering is based on independent read and write settings, read-only, write-only, read-write, no access. Secure and non-secure settings are independent, however, secure check is applicable to any master, but non-secure check is filtered per master and said selective. This slide shows a simple programming example. The DDR space supports three non-overlapping regions. Region one is defined between start one and end one addresses. Region one is read and write accessible only by secure applications. Region two is defined between start two and end two addresses. Region two is a shared region, read and write accessible by secure and non-secure applications. Region three is defined between start three and end three addresses. Region three is read and write accessible only by the non-secure MDMA engine, with end set equals five. The register settings and programming sequence are for WREN and RDEN parameters. End set are listed in the table on the next slide. Region zero is always enabled and covers the full DDR address space. It is set as a blanket to trap any access outside of these regions. Hence, no access is allowed outside of the three defined regions. Non-secure master address ID or end set is encoded on four bits, according to master as listed in this table.


Hey, hey there! There's quite a second hand-pickin'-a-game. Winning out today, we're gonna be doing a Seventeen on Crack reaction And it's the second one out of this series. I don't know how many there are, but it's by Lollikitty And you guys have been recommending quite a few other things or shows or Playlists from Lollikitty like English Time of Seventeen. You've also mentioned some other things and all that stuff So I will do that after I do on Crack because I don't want to get myself lost with all these Freaking videos because I'm doing too many series right now, but yeah after I do on Crack I'm gonna be doing English Time of Seventeen and then I'm also gonna be doing one of their the reality shows So I'll be doing that because I'm gonna be finishing up with SF9's reality show in a couple days from now Which is gonna be freaking awesome. I can't wait. I'm just watching cuz I'm gonna be watching it after this Sick times, but yeah, other than that, let's get straight into the Seventeen on Crack video I hope you guys are gonna enjoy it just as much as I'm gonna enjoy it, so at least she's doing it G'day woosie, g'day v'nong, g'day drone, g'day Mingyu, g'day Jungham, g'day Hoshi, g'day Joshua, g'day the A, g'day Scoops, g'day DK, g'day Sungkwan g'day Wenwo, g'day Dino, g'day Seventeen On Crack, okay, let's go.  Ooh, so there's Droneham G'day on your ears, Goops G'day Joshua, Sungkwan, and Joshua So it was Sungkwan, G'day Scoops, Vernon, and I didn't see who was on the left Yeah, I heard my throat Like a shake, it was just like jamming to music time So Who's that in the background? Who's that? Okay, so I know it was, oh dude that was good. I don't want to remember Jungham But how was that? It's so swag. Okay, that was very good. I didn't know him by mean, but I don't know Jungham I'm pretty sure I'm giving his name wrong.  But yeah, Jungham here's long here, but I wonder what it looks like now Short here. I should probably check that out. Oh, no. Oh, damn. That's just visuals for days. Okay. Okay. Okay, my eyes But you guys just gonna be off this video if you guys did enjoy. If you guys did, then definitely show some support by leaving a like and also Comment down below your favorite.


This is the Anabaptist Perspectives, and I'm Kyle Staltzfuss. With me today is Peter Gertzen. Peter, you're an educator, is that right? I'm a high school teacher.  Okay. I think one of the things that you've witnessed and why you're here with us today is just the enormous amount of information that's available, well, to high schoolers, but to all of us. I mean, we're just bathed in information from the moment we get up. If you're a smartphone user to the time we go to sleep, it's everywhere. It's always present. What are some of the effects of this information deluge that we have these days and can you help us think about how to process all of the information that we're getting? Well, I think the most important thing to keep in mind, or an important thing to keep in mind, I should maybe say first, I certainly don't have all the answers. I can only scratch the surface when it comes to dealing with information, and it's certainly something that I'm still learning how to best deal with for myself. But a very important issue is that the central problem with information is not the content of the information or where it comes from, but how we receive it and respond to it. The problem is largely internal to ourselves as information consumers and not external in terms of what the information is and where it comes from. It's like Jesus said, what corrupts us is not what goes into us. Jesus was speaking in the context of the Pharisees' preoccupation with cleanliness and following correct rituals. And Jesus didn't repudiate those concerns exactly. He said to another place that you should listen to the Pharisees and do what they say to do, that those are good things. But Jesus says that becoming ritually unclean through what enters us is not nearly as significant a problem as what comes out of us. It's not what goes into us that defiles us. It's what comes out of us. The problem is not with the world. Although the world certainly has many problems. The world is corrupt. Much of the information that is out there for us to consume is corrupt. But we are all born with that same corruption within ourselves. The world is not something external to us. The world is something that we are born as part of. When John talks about the lust of the flesh and the lust of the eyes and the pride of life. Yes, those things are out in the world. The world is full of these things. But we also as fallen human beings are full of these things ourselves. And when we think about information that we receive and that we react to the main problem is receiving and reacting to information wrongly. We need to be cleansed by the Holy Ghost and by the grace of God through Christ in order to correctly receive and respond to information. So the problem just to summarize and calculate what you're saying. The problem here isn't so much the information, but it's in our response to it. It's the information itself is in some ways it's somewhat passive. And we as the person who's actually looking at it, who's beholding it, who's receiving and sifting and responding to that. You're saying that's where a lot of the obligation lies. Yes. And I'm reminded here of the elsewhere in the Gospels where Jesus says the light of the body is the eye. And if therefore the eye be singled, the whole body shall be full of light. And he's looking at the eye not so much as a physical instrument that we have, this biological thing, but it's the instrument by which we perceive things. And I think he's just acknowledging there everybody sees in some way, not everybody sees the same things. And depending what it is, how does we come to the information? We see the situations and circumstances. Different eyes see different things. And he's saying keep your eye single in all of that. And I'm hearing you saying something similar. Yes. And I haven't brushed up on my interpretation of that passage lately, but I believe that Jesus is referring to purity when he talks about the eye being single. And if you have more thoughts about that, I'd be glad to hear it. But I think that's part of the concept there. When our perception, when our eye is purified by a love for God rather than ourselves, then we are full of light. But when our eye is darkness, then how great is that darkness? Yeah, that's right. It reminds me just to quote some Annias Nin, I think. She just says that we don't see things as they are. We see things as we are. And the encouragement here is to be a kind of person who's being purified and then we can actually begin to see things the way they are. But let's set that in some contrast, okay? If that's the ideal of seeing things truly and rightly through Christ and through his bringing us to life and seeing them truly, how do we tend to respond? Well, we tend to respond in ways that feel good to us. Sure. Nobody likes to feel bad. Nobody likes things that are unpleasant to them. So we have a natural tendency as fallen human beings to receive and respond to information in ways that feel good to us. A related concept is confirmation bias. Confirmation bias is choosing to believe information that supports what we already think or what we want to think. Sure. It is a bias in favor of whatever will confirm our prior commitments. A great example of this is what happens when your car starts making a funny noise. Now, I don't know about you or about other people, but when my car starts making an unfamiliar noise, then my initial response is to try to explain that away as something that's not really a problem. Because I don't want my car to be broken. It's really inconvenient for my car to be broken and to have to take it to the shop and spend hundreds of dollars fixing it. I don't want that to be the case. So when my car makes a funny noise, I want to think that, I don't know, a stone got stuck in my tire or something. Something that's not really a problem that's easily fixed. I don't want to think that there is truly something wrong with my car. And so I look for explanations that will prove that there's nothing really that wrong with my car. The problem ended up becoming a bigger problem because I did not address it like I should have at first because I didn't want to. I interpreted what I was experiencing based on what I wanted to be true and not on what actually was true. Reality is not assembled according to my desires. Reality doesn't care about what I want. It is what it is. And if I don't orient myself to reality as it is, then I am going to have problems. So you're almost saying here it sounds like that this desire of confirmation bias, the terms you gave to it there, in a sense it's a flight from reality. Why do we want to get away from reality? You've said as much and you're just kind of reiterating. Sure, sure. Because it's not always nice. We don't always like reality. We don't always like the way things are. So we look for a way of thinking. We look for information that will tell us that reality is more like we want it to be. And this doesn't always mean that the way we want things to be is wrong. Sometimes the way we want things to be is the way things are or the way things should be, but not always. So we have to be on guard against that. It has to be one of the significant challenges of just being a human. We have our needs, we have our wants for security, we want our wants for health and we want the people around us to thrive. These are generally good things to want. Right, right. But they can become distorted in a way that just makes us reject what actually is. When we do that you're saying we're setting ourselves up in some ways to reject some of the gifts and the awareness that God might have for us. Right, yeah, yeah. And with that it's important to remember that even when things are not how we want and when they are not how they should be there are many things in this world that are not as God intended because of sin, because of the falleness of the world. It's God's grace that repairs that. So we don't need to rely on facts or supposed facts to bring reality in line with the way it's supposed to be. There is going to be a period of time until the return of Christ and the recreation of the heaven and the earth that the Book of Revelation talks about that things will be set right, but that is where we place our hope. It's a constant temptation and mistake that we all face, that I certainly face to look for that kind of redemption now in things that I can experience and see now instead of trusting God to set it right in the future. Isn't this the original sin in some ways? In some ways. It's the grasping for the full fruition of knowledge and goodness and truth now but the present reality of just being one of God's creatures in a fallen world actually in some ways it postpones that. Put it into the future. We have the hope it overlaps with what we have but not the fullness of it quite yet. Yes, absolutely. And this is maybe getting a little bit speculative but if you recall the sin that Adam and Eve committed it was eating of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. Right. It was not God's intent for Adam and Eve at that time at least. At least not yet. Yeah, perhaps again this is speculating to a large degree. It was not God's intent for Adam and Eve to have that full experience of knowledge but they did. They disobeyed God and they ate of the fruit of that tree and I suspect again some speculation going on here on my part but I suspect that the sin of Adam and Eve has had a special negative impact on our ability to know what is good and bad and true and false. Interesting. Okay. So I hear you're carrying here about confirmation bias and one of the reasons we bias to confirm the things that we want to hear and understand and see in the world is it just makes us more comfortable and sometimes reality is very uncomfortable. What additional factors might you talk about here that sometimes rearrange how we look at the facts? Well, yeah, how you look at the facts is that's an important point to bring out because correctly receiving and responding information is more than just deciding what to believe, deciding what's true. Our response to facts, even correct facts, true facts is also important. A good example of this is found with Osama bin Laden of all people. Okay. Sometime after the 9-11 attacks and the U.S. invasion of Afghanistan, bin Laden wrote a manifesto. It was a letter to the American people and you might be surprised how much you agree with it. Okay. He talks at some length about the corruption of American culture and the negative impact of America on the world. There are some things he says about that that I would disagree with but other things are very difficult to disagree with. We would say amen to a lot of the things that he says about the sin and corruption in American society. He speaks very, very strongly against things that we would agree are wrong, sexual immorality and substance abuse, things like that. Osama bin Laden correctly identified true problems that our society has. There were some things there that he was absolutely correct about but his response to those facts was wrong, which is putting it mildly. His response is to tell Americans that they need to convert to Islam or face God's judgment, Allah's judgment, which he and his followers will meet out in Allah's name. Exactly, yes, which is incorrect to put it mildly. Islam is not the solution to the problems in our society and it's certainly incorrect to commit acts of violence against people even if they have been correctly identified as sinners. The Bible and Jesus and the apostles clearly teach against those solutions that bin Laden identifies. So he has correctly identified facts but his response to those facts is very deeply flawed in many ways and that's something we have to watch out for as well. Even after we identify something that's true we can respond to that truth in the wrong way. He's correctly identifying the facts and we can even agree with some of the facts but the diagnosis that he places, the narrative he attaches it to and the solution he finds because of that suddenly things are radically out of place with where we go. Yes, exactly. So we've talked about bias and discomfort. We've talked some about our sinfulness and how it tends to close us in to really closed systems that just confirm what it is that we want because it's more comfortable to talk about some of the attitudes that we attach facts to. These are some of the negative consequences and negative ways to talk about facts, to talk about discernment in the midst of these facts. Can you begin to move us forward now and paint more of a positive picture for how we can actually encounter the facts and perceive well? Yeah, well I can move in that direction at least, hopefully. I do want to give credit to my friend Kendall Myers. He's helped me think about some of these issues and especially the solutions to these problems. It would be easy, much like Bin Laden, to correctly identify these problems of the corruption of our hearts and bias and things like that. You can stop there. Yeah, we need to move beyond that and find the true solutions. If the problem is centered in our hearts, in our fallen, sinful, corrupt hearts, then that's where the solution needs to lie as well. We need the grace of God through Jesus to recreate our hearts, to renew our minds, like Romans 12 talks about, to make us into people with the correct priorities. Jesus said that the two greatest commandments are to love the Lord with all of our beings and secondly, to love our neighbors as ourselves. The children's song is correct. It's Jesus first and yourself last and others in between. And placing the Lord and our neighbors and ourselves in correct order within our own hearts is going to go a long ways. It is going to solve this problem. The issue, of course, is that this is an ongoing process of sanctification throughout our lives as Christians. It's certainly not complete in my own heart. But when our hearts are correctly ordered in these ways, then we begin to find freedom from these issues of bias and wrong responses. When my priority is what feels good to me, I'm going to be biased in favor of what seems like it will benefit me. That problem is dealt with when our priority is what is going to honor God, what's going to bless my neighbor. Then I don't need to worry anymore about what's good for me because my priority is the honor of the Lord and the good of my neighbor. So confirmation bias then is going to be eliminated and it will help us to more clearly perceive what is true and to respond correctly. Instead of responding based on what's going to feel good to me, I respond according to what will honor God and what will bless my neighbor. But simultaneous to this, if I'm hearing you right, simultaneous to this honoring God and honoring neighbor, you're actually beginning to see the world. It's almost like you're seeing the world rightly for the first time. Well, yeah. That's an interesting point. I'm not sure I thought about it in quite that way, but I think you're right. Again, like I said before, the world is not arranged for our convenience. The world doesn't exist to make me feel good. The Bible tells us that the world was created for the honor of God and when I am oriented towards the honor of God, first of all, then I am going to be able to see the reality for what it is in a way that I can't when I am turned towards myself. There's a distinction, and I think it was Luther who really liked to use the language of man turned in on himself. It not goes back, it predates him. It's in Kroato's say. It's this portrait of man kind of living in his own shadow and you're really unable to get outside of that. You can't really even enjoy God's creation because of how self-interested we kind of naturally become. And the opposite of that isn't just man open to the world, it's man oriented toward God. And that actually allows us to see and honor God in our relationships but in some ways just to even see the world for the first time. It's a pretty dramatic difference. It is, it is. If we turn towards ourselves and dwelling within our own shadows like you were saying, then we can't see anything. We can't even see ourselves properly. Yeah, yeah. That's a good way of putting it. Let's take something of a practical turn now if we can. I'm curious what you might say here about fact and narrative. We've mentioned a little bit with maybe Osama. He had a certain reading of the facts because of how as a jihadist as a certain kind of Muslim it just ended inevitably in a certain diagnosis. That's the narrative that you're attaching to those facts. Can you just talk to me about fact and narrative? Sure, yeah. And bin Laden is a good example of how facts and the narratives or the overall perspectives that the facts are placed within. And you keep on unpacking what narrative you mean. Yes, yeah. That's a good question. It's the overall account of reality, the story that is taken to explain the way that things are. So in the case of Osama bin Laden, the overall narrative is a narrative of the truth of Islam that Islam is the solution to the world's problems. And that is a false narrative. That's what I believe is Christian. But within that narrative, there are some things that are true. It is true, for example, that as Muslims teach, there is one God. That is a fact. And it is true that many of the things that Muslims consider sinful are in fact sinful according to the scriptures. A false narrative often, probably usually, maybe even always, is going to contain some things that are true. We can't dismiss the concept of the existence of one and only one God just because that's something Muslims believe. And their overall belief system is incorrect. Yeah, that obviously is nonsensical. So we can't dismiss all information just because of where it originates from or where it is found. There are going to be some things that are true that come from sources that are mostly wrong. That's just the way it is. And by the same token, there can be sources of information that are mostly right, that have overall a correct narrative, sources that are oriented towards God, that are in obedience to the scriptures overall. And sometimes that's going to show itself in falsehoods that we may continue to promote though we are growing towards what God intends for us. And our overall orientation is towards the truth. I know that I'm certainly wrong sometimes. I look back at some things that I have said in the past, things that I believe were facts that I now do not believe. And 10 years from now, there will probably be things that I look back on about this moment, maybe even this presentation, I don't know. And that at that point I'll say, that wasn't quite true, that piece of it was false. So we can't dismiss every piece of information just because of where it comes from. And we can't accept every piece of information just because of where it comes from either. In this fallen world, truth and error is going to be mixed up. And that's a difficult fact that maybe it doesn't make us feel good. But that's the way it is. And we need to deal with that as best we can. And we won't do that perfectly, but it's something we need to strive for. Peter, this all sounds very complicated. You're telling me that there's some true facts that can be attached to false narratives. And because of that, you may have to somehow work with discern which of those facts can be true, but somehow reject and discern the narrative. But there's also narratives which are true, which may contain some facts which are actually erroneous. This sounds like hard work. It's very hard work. Wouldn't it be simpler just to have some kind of ideology that makes sense of it all? It's the narrative and the facts. I think this is what they call a rhetorical question. Yes, sure it'd be simpler. You do that. Well, because like I was saying before, it doesn't line up with reality. That's not the way things are. Things just aren't that simple. And again, reality is not constructed for convenience. Yeah, it would be much easier if we could simply find a dotted line somewhere that we could sign our name to and everything above that is all correct. Yeah, but it is hard work. And I'm not sure what answers I have for that exactly. I certainly don't have all the answers by any means. But the most important thing is to trust in the grace of God and ask for the grace of God to change our hearts to be oriented towards Him so that we are removing our own corruption. The Lord is removing our corruption from our hearts and helping us to see the truth more clearly. And I hear you saying like this is a process. It's going to take time for us to begin to see the world truly. It's simpler in some ways to just grab for something that's hasty and quick, but it's going to take time and it's probably a skill that, like any skill, takes practice. You've got to try and there's going to be some failures along the way. Yeah, and I'm certainly still practicing myself. One comment I would just have here is that many times it's in the more complex scenarios that happen that it becomes even more difficult and the complexities kind of amplify. Sometimes I'm thinking just an example, an airplane crashes and they're trying to figure out what was the sequence of events, what's the narrative that helps us to understand what happened and they've got facts well littered all over a field somewhere. There's the facts, but they've got to somehow try to make a coherent picture of how this all happened. They start with the fact sometimes in some pieces of narrative sometimes the first assumption in the narrative that's constructed it fits with the facts. Other times there's an accumulation of evidence that starts to point the narrative in another direction. Sometimes the narrative that they started with was totally wrong and there was something they didn't anticipate. The facts eventually kind of teeter that narrative right off. But the more complex of a scenario we have, the more humility is required to remain open to some of the possibilities here. That's a great example and a very important point about humility. We need to stay humble. We need to recognize that we are going to make mistakes even as the work of sanctification in our hearts continues even as we do our best and we do work hard we are not going to get it right all the time and we need to have the humility to accept that and be prepared to face the consequences of being wrong in every situation where we have to receive information and figure out how to respond to it. Be ready to accept that we may be wrong and that there might be consequences for that and we just need to accept that and trust God's grace to carry us through even those negative consequences. One of the significant reassurances we have in Christ's Kingdom is that there's actually space for people to be humble. There's a security that we have in the narrative, in the story, in the economy of God I guess you'd say for human beings to be who we are, fallible but also at the same time being changed from glory to glory into the likeness who is Christ himself, right? So there's space for us to be humble and there's a security that we have because of who God is and how he's worked with his people. Exactly. What other practical things could you say to us as people who are wading through the information maze that we have these days? The information again, just having more information isn't particularly helpful. We need a certain set of spectacles to put on and look at it and I'm hearing you saying that we have something of those in Christ himself. Let's just talk practically. What other than humility could you offer? Yeah, one thing that I think is important on a practical level is to look as closely as we can at where information comes from and what the ultimate source of any particular piece of information is and something that I've started to notice is that frequently when some piece of information is put forth when you try to find out where that information came from, well it turns out that it kind of didn't come from anywhere. There's no clear indication of where this information even originated and that should cause us to question that information or sometimes even if a source is given for the information the source turns out to say something different and not to support the information as it was presented and just kind of a silly example of that. Evidently there was one of these things going around in social media that the country of Japan is planning to outlaw microwave ovens and that sounds kind of silly but who knows, weird things do happen but when you look at where this information came from it appears that the source of this information was an article on a website that did indeed say that Japan is going to outlaw microwaves but down at the bottom of the article there's a little disclaimer that said essentially by the way this is a joke. This is not actually true. April Fool's. Yeah that kind of thing. So if you would see this, you know, oh Japan is going to outlaw microwaves well if you can find a source for it drill down as deep as you can and you find that ultimately there's nothing there. Somebody was making a joke and that's where this came from and that's a simple example but it often turns out to be that way that either no source for a certain piece of information can really be found, it can't be verified in any way or the source that is given ends up saying something completely different than what has been purported. So do your own source work? I hear you saying. One final question I guess and that's just simply this, more and more frequently I think we're going to find ourselves in tough conversations our world globally but even especially maybe in American cultures is pretty fragmented and pretty touchy. People hold their opinions pretty closely and they're very personal. So we're going to find ourselves in conversations with people with whom we disagree and sometimes it's just an arrangement of the facts and sometimes it's a completely different narrative. So suppose you're in a conversation with somebody who's pretty dogmatic about the narrative that they're part of but you're disagreeing with it. How could you possibly engage in some kind of constructive conversation? I'm not sure if I have the answers there. That's something that I do struggle with and I think the best thing that I can say is that we need the grace of God in those times and I do become increasingly convinced that my response to information and my response to other people my interaction with other people it's going to rise out of who I am and if I am a good person then the things that I do the way that I think, the way that I speak is going to arise out of the goodness that God is doing within me. You can't fake that. I don't think that there's any checklist that we can mark off. There's the fruit of the spirit. I guess we could look at the fruit of the spirit as some kind of checklist.  Not unhelpful. Yeah, but these are not the fruit of me trying really hard. These are the fruit of the spirit. These fruits arise out of the work of God in my heart. Certainly it's good to think about how I should interact with other people. I absolutely need to be intentional about doing the best that I can but also recognize that the best that I can do is going to be the result of God's work within me. So I need to submit to him to live in harmony with God and his purposes for me. And the fruit of that is going to be responding graciously to other people when these difficult situations arise. I hear you, for one, just because it's hard to imagine these situations. Each one is so different, each of these encounters. But I hear you pushing back against any kind of formula or reduction and you're saying to have these encounters successfully with people who are different than we are, who hold different narratives, different facts. There's nothing short of just being in Christ through the Holy Spirit that actually allows that kind of encounter to happen. Yeah, I think that's right. And certainly the Bible does give us examples of what we will be like when God is working our lives. We need to be humble, we need to be gracious. We need to be bold as well and speak the truth. And yeah, it is good to think about those goals, to think about these things. But as things that God wants to accomplish within us, not so much things that we can create through our own power within ourselves. Thanks for talking with us, Peter.