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Man, you guys in for a treat today, man. We got a guy in here today, y'all. As I always say, he really don't need no introduction, man. If you've been on the internet, if you've been listening and hearing the smooth sounds, man, what's really going down, man. You got to have a year for this, man. Marcellus, the singer is in the building. What's going on? Let's get it, man. What's good, big bro? Man, I'm just so glad to have you, bro. Just happy that you would even, you know, bless us to sit amongst the Boss Talk 101 platform, right? What a Boss is pretty much going through all situations and circumstances, trying to figure it all out, man. Man, I appreciate you all for having me. Man. Watch out, man. You watch the show? Most definitely. Man, he be going down on Viridoni. Oh, yeah. Really?  Hey, look, so-and-so trying to do this, do that. You know, all right, you wanna do it. So it's really just, you know, he hit me with the call.  Yeah, I'm always over there. Yeah, man, cause I, you know, I call and talk crazy, people say, I'll be like, I'm gonna mess the interview up before I get it. I'll be too, I'll just be too real. Like, I just, I can't be fake, so I will never be too real, though. So I'll be on it, like, I'm like, what's up? You know, I'll just be who I am. So if you see me on the set, that's what you're getting when I call you.  That's him all the time. And it's just me being mean, so I just can't be fake, man. But I feel like right now we're in an age to where that's rule number one, like being authentic before anything that people wanna see.  You said that's rule number one, but a lot of people don't live by that at all. That's why, you know, when you think about the life of social media, 80% of social media is fake. But that's why you got people that win and people that don't. You got people that get it and people that don't. 80%? I said about 80%.    We 100 over here. Of course. Married 20 years, had this business over here for 16 years. Got kids just, what, 15 and 17?   So for whatever everybody else doing, I have nothing to do with that. Man. But anyway, for me, I love to get to know you as a person. Not a singing part yet. Right, right. But where were you born and raised? I was born in Hammond, Louisiana. I was raised in Amie, Louisiana, between Amie, Louisiana and Rosalind, Louisiana. But it's really the same thing. It's all small, it's country and small. Where's your Louisiana accent? See that's, see people always get that mixed up. Look, it's more of us than New Orleans. New Orleans is like they own the island, they own the corner. You know, you can be from the outskirts of New Orleans and still don't talk like that. Okay. It's bad and rude. But I met people from Louisiana. I'm not New Orleans that have a crazy accent. But look, it's a feud though. It's really a Cajun accent, a Creole accent. You can go to Lafayette and they got it. Some of them got it. You can go to Reserve, Laplace. You can go to Slot Hill sometime, but it's just different little spots that, you know, I don't know why it is. It was already like that. I already know you get out, man. I already know, I already know. Yo, yo. Yeah, he got the regular voice for choice, you know what I'm saying? Yeah, there's a whole different ball game over here. No, he don't got a regular voice. He might got a regular dialect, but a voice part now. Well, when I say that, I'm talking about dialect, so you're right. I'm gonna let you win on that. You don't let you win, but you hit me with that when I came live. So were you raised with your mom and dad? My mom. Just your mom? Yeah. Why is that ever, I'm not saying everybody, but that's like the story everybody gives. Where was dad? You know, he was doing his thing. He was around, but he wasn't around. Okay, so at least he was around, so you do know him. Yeah, you know he had his choice, you know. Did you ever listen to Shaquille O'Neal? Party favors. He got a song called Field is My Father because my biological wouldn't bother. Mm-mm, I never heard of him. You gotta check that out. Okay. I never heard of him either. Go check out Shaquille O'Neal. He used to rap, believe it or not. I know he used to rap, I know that part, but I didn't hear that. I had a song called Field is My Father. Don't he got Platinum Records? Yeah, you know what I'm saying? Like, yeah, he got a way of getting his, getting his, yeah, that one was hard back in the day. Shout out to Shaquille O'Neal, man. Shout out to Shaq, man.  I ain't no good. I wasn't listening, so I don't know what he was doing. Go check it out. Go check it out. I know he was doing something, but I don't know what he was doing. Put in Shaquille O'Neal and Field, and you gon' see what I'm talking about. I hear he had crazy features. Like he did an album. He did? He did have some features, but just go check him out. You know, he was playing ball, too. You know, he started off, I think with the Magics, then he went on over the Lakers and all that, but that boy did his thing, man, and I always been a big fan, but that music part, I really remember, because I really believed in him. I believed in him in the music as well. Many niggas didn't, but I rode with the niggas anyway. Big Shaq. But his dad, pretty much, he was in the same situation where he felt like his dad didn't do what he supposed to did by himself. I think that's a lot of us. I don't blame him, though. He had his choice of party favors, you know? Yeah. So, you know, he had his own battles. Oh, really? We talk, you know, later on. But did you understand that as a kid, though? You didn't understand that as a kid? No, no, no. Were you mad at him as a kid? I wasn't mad at him, but I appreciate him, though, because he put a chip on my shoulder from young, like, I'm telling you. And the chip helped? The chip helped. I ain't gonna lie, from a kid, I was already on what I wanted to do when I grew up, man. How I wanted my life to go and all that. Man, my pops went around, man. I wanna have some kids. I wanna have these many kids. I wanna be their form. How many kids did you want? I wanted two. Oh, okay. I still passed two, though. How many you got? Yeah, I had a twin, so I still write the three. Oh, okay, I was about to say, you made it sound like I'm gonna have 10. That's what I was looking for. No, I'm done. I'm done. Wow. Man, you know, when you return on this smooth sound, man. First of all, welcome to Dallas, man. I appreciate that. You know what I'm saying? Welcome to Dallas, Texas, man. I love Dallas.  I had the pleasure of rockin' with. Shout out to Sir Charles Jones. Shout out to Sir Charles. Shout out to L.J. Elkles. Shout out to... Big bro. Yeah, like a lot of these different guys who really, they're sings. You know what I mean? That's in the area and just a little... Shout out to Stone Mecca. Stone Mecca dope. You gotta check him out. Yeah. I'll go in. Yo, yo. I just talked to another 92 on the phone. He play that good song like Craig. He done played with... He done played around BB King, Prince, all of them. He one of them guys. Oh, he cutting up, yo. What? Man, stop playin'. And a Wu Tang, too. He rock out. Yeah. Yeah, he's that guy, man. Just look him up. Stone Mecca, shout out. I'ma do that. So you always wanted to sing from a kid growing up? No.  I thought... You remember when Drumline came up, the movie Drumline? Now I thought... I was just using my head, you know, I'm a kid. I'm thinking, all right. Football, go from middle school to NFL. All right, basketball, go from middle school where really Lil League, you know, go from Lil League to the NBA. You know, band, you know, go along with both of them. So I'm like, all right, they got... They got a big league band.  But it ain't work out like that. I figured out later on, you know, it stopped after college and you gotta figure something else out. Did you used to sing in church? Yeah, yeah. What was one of them church songs that you used to sing? Give it to me. I always do that. That's one, that can help somebody right there. Oh, yeah. Yes, let's go. Let me see, let me see. Give me something. The one that you were singin' like, man, that's the one that get me through. Yeah, yeah. Let me see, let me see. Let me think of one. Let me think of a good one. There you go. Thank you. It's one my mama used to sing to us when I was a kid. Let me see if I can figure out the words. So your mama can sing good too. Yeah, yeah. She do it a little bit. Let me see. Oh, rejuice, take joy in my key, in what you hear, and let it be a sweet, sweet sound in your ear. Man, man. Oh, man. Say, man, that's what I'm talking about. Something that'll get you through today. You know what I'm sayin'?  So what what? You ever you in a you're in a different I don't know your age, but you you're younger You live when a young man coming to this game Seeing the type of music that you sing in this time a lot of people Sometime rejected feel like you have to pave a way seem like you not ready They're trying to figure out a way to make it to where you have to go through all type of tunnels to get there How hard is it being for you to get in to this whole situation? Not hard at all. Not hard Yeah, cuz I really had the understanding like I watched Like a lot of upcoming artists. I watched they path and you know what really stood out for them and made them You know made people love them and I figured out you really just got to be you with whatever you're doing It don't matter what you doing But what I wanted to know Cuz you said you didn't want to do music at first. When did you figure it out that you want to do music and Why I think 7th grade. I want to say it might have been 8, but I think it was 7th grade My cousin Slash best friend growing up, you know since babies he came to school one day and And you know, they was on a desk that's back when they had the MP3 players You know when they had the MP3 played and they had it in there, you know, they're recessing everybody I'm thinking a new song came out They let me hear it is him and a couple of my other partners now I had never been on a song before I think we did like Remember the karaoke machines? That you could put a tape in and you can record it you can hit record and then get on the mic I think that's about the closest thing I had did to Recording something but hearing them on the song and I Said oh, yeah, yeah, and then that's around the time where I figured out. Yeah, it is this band thing on the go So far something else out, but I knew I wanted to be rich though And so now like every kid. Yep. So now I'm in bed Everybody thought man, I thought I was gonna do Nick not everything Nick knew how to do look my thought process was All right, Nick did it and he was this good I'm gonna learn everything Nick did and I'm gonna be a little bit better. So I know for sure. I can do Like this man, I had to be I don't like Ten nine you wasn't thinking that's this is just the movies. Uh-huh. No, I didn't know the movies was the movies You thought it was just I'm feeling you was in that whole just Yeah, yeah, I was in front. I never had drumsticks or nothing. So like my band director when I got In band finally like he was he was in uh, because I didn't know how to do I just knew what to do But you can play it by here.  I ain't never had drumsticks.  Yeah, they got the little uh, it's a wide hanger They got the little carg the little round cardboard. Yeah, we used to take them and break them in half And beat on like I made your own drumsticks pins busting them on the couch What did he say when you what did he say when he seen you do that who your your your instructor, man I think uh, still to this day My class was his favorite class ever came through there But he didn't know what to say Like because he was trying to do the introduction. Look, it's funny. It's funny now But I was so serious because When I got to middle school, I was on this before I was in middle school, right?  He was around and he wasn't You know, I don't know where yet. I'm thinking about man. I'm the man of the house My mama told me one time I was the man of the house now stuck with me. I'm like, man, I gotta go get it Yeah, I gotta get it early. It don't matter that I'm a kid. Yeah, so everything from then on was just I gotta Yeah, I gotta do it. I gotta get on my ground. So when I got uh to middle school We on the playground everybody, you know playing basketball running around doing whatever I got my pencils. I'm over here. I'm over here. Get it in. I'm practicing hard with it. I'm ready to see dr. Lee I'm ready for that to see you so um It might have been about five or six, uh Other kids now. This is my first year going to this school I was going to green's bird and then I moved to uh ain't meet where we were staying at so uh Before it was over with before we had even had the trials and all of that. I had about five people They used to well five kids. They used to come on the playground And come over and practice with me make sure they got pencils and everything and give me to teach them how to do everything So I said, all right. So y'all over here learning.  You're gonna be second third, you know, I gotta move it out. You got to move it out Man, I'm so serious with this I feel this in my heart as a kid. Yeah, you only know, this is what I gotta do So I end up teaching them, right? And it ended up being like four of them that got kind of good you know, so, uh You couldn't go to pe and go to band At the same time it was during the same time.  I'm passing them out. Y'all ready, you know, we getting ready We finna go in here.  So everybody, uh, we getting uh, they coming in They got the pencils under their arms like like like you know, it's going down. It's going down They got the pencils under their arms, right? They walking on the first one. They brought the leader He didn't got these things ready. My band.  Coming up in here and everything was going on so in order. Yeah So he asked the question, right? He say I want everybody that's new to come New coming in. I want y'all to stand up. Tell me your name why you want to be a part of the band, right? So my guys, I was first So I'm over here. All my guys is over here They but they come before me. Yeah starting from over here. So everybody getting up. They uh, uh, my name is so-and-so Uh, I want to I want to be in the band. I want to play the uh, that's now like tarrant. That's my uh My government name. I want I want to play the uh, that's now like tarrant. So he looking at me Yeah, and all them. Yeah, I'm a kid I'm a kid now. This six grade So the next one get up. Uh, yeah, uh The same thing like they all saying something different, but really around the same thing like yeah, he got me Yeah He got me to come in here with him too. I know he couldn't wait to get to you Man, he couldn't wait. So he got to me. He hesitated a little bit. He said, uh What's your name, man? And why you want to be in the band? So you remember Nick Cannon couldn't read music. Yeah So I didn't learn everything. Oh, you can't know how to play. Oh, I don't know how to I don't know Everything I never seen it. She the music. I just seen it on the move. Okay. I know it looked like a little It looked like these and I don't know I don't know but I I stood up and I told him I said I had my sticks under my arm. My name is tears Daniels and I already know how to play I just came to learn how to read and sat down and he sat there for like a minute Like I don't know what to do.  I'm cocky No, I know what I can do. Like I know what I can do. I know I can do all of this and they've grown I know I'm a kid. So I know I should be pressure That's how Nick Adam did too.  So I'm killed So I know I got it. I know I got it. So He said man So you can play I said, yeah, yeah, I know how to play already. He said not he He grown. He know how it go drumsticks drums. That's how you play the drum I don't know nothing about that. So he said you can play something from it. I said, yeah, yeah What you want me to play that? He said and he looked back at the drum. He had back day He said what you mean? Well, I played anyway He said, yeah I said, yeah, I sat down right there.   He just man. He got quiet for like another two minutes solid two minutes, you know two minutes being quiet That's a long time. That's long when everybody looking around and he just looking at me. He said Man What are you doing?    Wow. Yeah, because you trained them. They already knew what to do.   Y'all gotta earn this right You feel me? I ain't picking nothing. Y'all gotta come in here. You if I say the ones in the two Yeah, if I said you won and I said you too and two came in here and showed one up two is one Yeah, that's how we doing it. But everybody got they uh, they got the spot.  How hard is it to it was hard because After figuring out I wanted to do that I'm always in church and my mama She was a uh missionary at the time. She evangelized now. She moved up Man, she had us in church so much Like and and god forgive me. Don't don't do me that We was in church every day of the week at one point. I feel like Monday nights Was like children's ministry Tuesday night was like choir rehearsal Wednesday bible study Thursday night was women's ministry. My mama ain't had no babies settle So you had to come? Yeah. Yeah, and then they want to sign up No It didn't keep you out of trouble That's got you you get to contact with more people the girls at the church too. No, because look everything working How you got in trouble if you had church every night? Well, I was half of the time I was by my at half of the time I was by my mama when I'm by my auntie. I'm in the hood. I'm around the roll.  We fighting dogs. We are a type of you know All type of activities. I ain't okay. Yeah, that's hard man. I just like Man, I know already your love for music is there for you to do a whole Nick Cannon run You know I'm saying drum line man. That was hard man. So I just um like when I listen to your music man Like you different than a lot of people man What inspired you to do the type of music that you're doing on these like I think I seen three on the internet That really was sticking out to me. You know what I mean? Yeah, like what caused you to do that that genre of music? Uh my partner right now my manager CEO, whatever you want to call him T Hogan, you know, he he was reaching out.  All right, you all right. I'm gonna come do it Um, I didn't know nothing about the music Excuse me. I didn't know nothing about the genre Nothing about none of that because you are just into r&b. Mm-hmm. Okay, but I'm modern modern day You know, I'm young so I'm on what we own right. So I'm like, I'm be dead. So what is on you said? When you think about mode three and and and and when you think about mode three and and and that song like like The song that he would sing. I remember you I just me when we was talking I'm saying I bring it up now how you you basically He he took a liking to you when he was alive. Mm-hmm. Like how did that even happen? Uh, I used to be in the army, right? Okay. Uh, I was at at Um, it's like a two week thing you got to do when you're in the national guard, you know two weeks while you're out there I'm bored You know, I was a troublemaker anyway, so I was probably in trouble somewhere uh So, uh, I seen um When he did a remix to that sierra and I I was like, I ain't know who he was or nothing, but I know I liked it.   Yeah, so it's it's like if you're using a lot of it And you do something like that, you know, they gonna hit a real So you don't really hit that too much. So I saw that, you know, I was like, man, who this dude is because I'm To me Me and my uh, my cousin that I started doing music with we the only two niggas that still do this to me in my head Yeah, you know at this time you were about 21 20. Yeah, I'm about I'm 20 21. Yeah, one of them But uh, you know, he wasn't as big as he is now. Yeah, yeah, too But I just I just take a liking to who I take a liking to like I'm more of a fan of the craft Then you know the status and how big you is and all that So while I was there, I couldn't get it out of my head. I was like, you know what? He remixed he remixed it. I'm gonna remix the remix the part about it.  Mm-hmm the video that I uploaded Was the first try that I did and I ain't do it right or nothing I was just trying to see if the sound the volume was right and everything I accidentally did it. Yeah, and I switched. I think I got a new phone And I couldn't get my data over so I was like, man, yeah, I gotta get the video right here So the one that I picked wasn't the right one and you were shocked and I just threw it up You know, because I just knew, you know, it was the right one. I just threw it up by the time I realized it was at like 50k You know, so you can't really take it down now after it's at 50k. So That's hard man. It's crazy. I still can't really listen to the video Like that because I knew how I did it. I knew I didn't wait better Right. So every time I listen to it, it's like So what did you go viral on the second time? Uh, the second time had to be Uh A party a birthday party I did and It was a parents And my uh, my manager at the time, he knew the birthday girl. He was like, man, you got to get up here and do something Well, man, I'm like, man, ah, man, they pay you for a parents man I can't be coming out here appearance and hop on stage and come on, man What this gonna do for me? He was like, ah Well, you can do something that ain't one of your songs. You ain't gotta do one of your songs You could just do something. So I ended up doing that tank.  Now I gotta hear how you sung that.  Let me through Shake it screaming out loud.   I know just what to do You got it all on my face I love the way that it takes When you put it all on my plate, it won't go to waste.  Hey, man And you know what? I'm listening to him and I'm trying to find fault in your voice and I cannot find it It's like he's doing this scene That's crazy because I got about I got about 25 30 percent of it left That didn't work me since I've been down here man. I came down here to do one show That's it. I done did what two podcast three podcast two shows. That's hard. Yeah. Yeah, that's what you're here for Dad is loving me. I'm loving dad. Oh really, man. Why do artists always You know take one air off they can hear they self so you can hear. Yeah, you can hear yourself Yo, you can't hear yourself when you have both of them on he used to sing without it on No Okay, he want to hear hide here how he's used to hearing it when he's singing Oh, okay. Yeah, I see everybody do it. That's why I was wondering Man, so Man toxic man. Talk to me about this. Oh, man Man toxic man. That was that was my master plan to get in this thing man break through the door What was your master plan? It's about it because Like I said, remember earlier.  We doing so good. And then you got the the songs.  Fuck her They did me so wrong or whatever, but 99.9% of relationships laying in the middle You know, and we didn't really have nothing, you know in the genre that really spoke on it You know, so it's like when we doing when we doing good We got the music to listen to when we doing Bad, we got the music that we listen to but when we regular us what we listening to What's telling the truth about us?  I get on your That's hard. That's hard. It really is. It's truth, right? Yeah, I wanted to give him some some truth. Shit. That's really, you know going on How long ago you did this song? I did uh toxic coming up on a year probably 10 months. It has 3.6 million views on youtube. That's your highest viewed Right now. I got it got more it got more. Yeah, I took I took it down a couple times. Why? Uh, I started doing my own distribution, you know, when you uh switch it over it just Come down and start over. Oh So how much did it have before all time streams last time I checked it was like Five something five what's that's that's the biggest song you've ever done. Yeah. Yeah, give me a verse out of So I gotta get there the one they like.   I can't get it when I want. I guess I get it when I that's toxic Love Yeah Oh, the toxic love is so good, baby Man, hold up. Why they love that verse so much.  Have you been through that? Y'all better go check that one out, man Y'all got to go see my boy, man. That boy there man Marcellus man.  Because that's what you're doing, man My partner resting piece to him. My partner kj kj. He died a few years back. Wow. We was uh Actually shooting pool right and I had put a post Wait a minute. Wait a minute. Stop, bro Don't come on my show. Yeah, don't even mention pool when you're on boss talk on a one Come on, man, bro. Ain't no pool man. I shoot you with this cell phone right now. Come on Yeah, I don't even need no stick. You don't even need to see him Say stop playing with me man. No my daddy taught me how to shoot man. We shot with broomsticks back in the day Now going with the store Man, we was in that shooting pool.  See, you know It's up. Yeah, it's up there. I'm gonna talk about shit, man Man, I'm talking whether I'm losing or winning so you can get ready for that. Yeah. Yeah, I like that I like to talk when I'm winning. Oh, either way either way. I'm coming to get you I'm not feeling to walk out of there in the winter coming up You coming over I'm somewhere so so what happened with y'all to shoot that Yeah, we was in there and I think I had made a post And I was already going by more sellers, but I was going by more sellers young Okay, don't ask me where the young came from. It just sounded right after more sellers.   We don't do last names, bro But yeah end up all Making a post and I had my name And the singer I don't know why the singer was right there, but it was a sentence, right? he read it like My name was Marcellus the singer. He would call it.  Who? Yeah That's it. That's something I do. That's the way I do it right now.   Where is that at again? Uh rosely, rosely. Yeah, it is pretty it is the crime rate pretty high. Yeah. Yeah. Wow, man So you that's all it really is, you know, louisanna period though. It's poverty Do you think boosty was right when he said that when you make it success you you have to move away from your home Uh, I think it's right.  They know you make your money You know, it's the social media age though.  He made it there yet. You know the what we we're gonna wait a while all the time. I'm you know That's just how it is. So I'm gonna get you singing again, man I don't know what song what song can I get you singing again? I'm gonna wait till my wife get here, but it's going down. We feel to get it. We don't have us concert See, that's how you do it, man Then people start looking for you searching for you and trying to figure out who is this dude, man He come through the man me and t-dads. We're gonna talk about that too T-dads and we can talk about it now T-dads is one of my one of my guys that been coming here for a long time ever since he went viral on the internet Yeah, and so yeah, so that's how we first see I ain't I don't really follow him or nothing like that But I know we was on the show. Yeah, I was on the show together. Yeah. Yeah, I done met him and everything like that Oh, yeah, I ain't I don't have a lot of time Well, I don't take a lot of time to like really go and search out No, no, no, no you and yeah, I don't think you I don't think you can but it's just yeah I gotta be on what I'm good singing people right that been on this platform you Like I said search all Jones for sure, man T-dash eat it up He go for out here though He ain't playing no games, bro And but but and and and definitely man He's just one of those guys that you can't never, you know You get you can't sleep on him man He's gonna come with it and now and I put you in the same same category. You know what I'm saying But he's been waiting on you to come back so he's gonna jump off into something real You know, it's a few songs that he got but you know me he got some and it's one he got about moon What is that song? Let me go to the moon shot the moonshine man. I give me a verse off that man I I doubt and that that's that's one of the ones man. That's one of the ones. Yes, sir Yeah, yeah, you gotta have a cup in your hand when they motherfucker See I was sitting outside with a couple of friends We were sitting by the fire Uh-huh One of my friends asked me When I'm in a relationship How I keep my cool Cause it's getting hard for me She say I got this man They get on my goddamn there So what am I supposed to do when I don't want to hear another word When I'm up he down Hey, when I'm left he right Sometimes we are Oh god god damn night, but tell you all I can say Take a shot of moonshine for the ones who doubted me Pull you up a cup cup or do same for the ones who cross Hey, the ones who cross me Couple here to see when I'm feeling the freaky Man, all my blues in a can of beer in the backyard Boy, I'm telling you something man. Hey, that's what I'm talking about Carlos Miller, man Do that man over there on your shoulder sometime you might hey, listen, man You ever run in the made of fire soft boys, man Man, I watch them all the time Then my guys right there shout out to chico bean showed us so much love when he was down here, man And when you sing, you know the more boys, you know Chico bean he out of dc But that didn't Carlos Miller out of Mississippi.  Yeah, so at the end of the day, man, I'm gonna take you with us But you know, have you ever what's the most talented guy like you running to anybody that really not in the industry Or don't sing at all on nowhere, but they were just talented man I knew I was gonna hit you with one with that one To be honest, you might not believe me Man, it's so many of my partners. I'm talking about close friends.  Okay. I got it. I got it. They go they can go but they but they finna be back, you know They ain't tripping. Yeah, they ain't tripping They just want to be like they love the instruments. They love their artistic way, right and then too like it might have been a lot more People from my area that felt like they wanted to take a chance doing that if it was, you know If you could see it Wow, a lot of people are scared to take chances and and people love to do what they're doing People don't like to step out of their comfort zone.  So man, you know at the same time though It's a lot of people that that I don't even blame them You know when they don't uh Take that chance because you coming from somewhere where struggle is real That's it like and it's a few ways Like especially being a black man. It's a few ways for you to get it and like, you know a couple love main legal Yeah, so it's like when you uh A lot of people don't understand like being an artist. They they see you pop off and then They see all right. He making money. He didn't he didn't got a song now He doing this he doing but they don't see you know behind the scenes you them been in the red seven to eight years You don't win in three hundred four hundred thousand over a period of time before you ever seen a dollar So it's like when you already come from the struggle and every dollar count and You ain't seen nobody else around you that and did it, you know to the fullest extent And then so you telling me all right since I got this talent if I want to do that I gotta just Take a chance to be the only one that ever did it from around here. Like that's a big chance you did It's a big chance because we have so many people that we've met who want to be artists entertainment But they in the streets They don't want to leave the streets alone.  I gotta get it. I got I got this to do. I got mortgage now You know, I don't I don't got me a house now. I don't got my girl You know, we don't you know, it's a lot of stuff. They get in the way of that Yeah, I just never let any of that getting you know, I saw my my years getting my 20s leaving me You know and I but I always believed in myself top three artists of all time did or live any genre um Just three top three any general did or live number one All right, number one. I gotta get number one Because he all around and most influenced me the most Jamie Foxx Oh, that's hard. Didn't he got a trio takes us right down the street to about 30 minutes But it's not because it's music though. I want to say it is I think so and that's so crazy But it's not because of his music number one What is it for? Is it active man? It's it's all around the street. It's it's him like how he come off the people entertainment period like All the way around best entertainer we ever seen number two is down number two pot Two pot. You gotta get the pot. What's your favorite two pox? Oh Uh, yeah, that's what I thought stop playing june 16 1971 mama gave birth to a hill raisin Yeah, don't make me go there. Is that your favorite?  It don't matter if you're lonely, baby You see that you can see right look at that. Look right there. You see that right there.  Yeah. Yeah, I like they're like I'm like I'm back in the 90s. Yeah.  I got turned to the side It don't even look right.  I gotta go with tank Tank Have you met tank? No, I met this nigga man. I talked to his auntie though and she let me know that uh You know, he listened to your music. Wow. That's hard. How do you make him with it? I ain't he how you meet her.   Yeah Yeah, my my childhood next uh nicknamed tj. They won't let it go I You didn't hear a while ago with with my brother said junior you talk you talk about me. You didn't call it. He didn't say my day He's gonna say you see yo. I'm gonna say none of that. You know what I'm saying? That's just family, man That's just how it go. Yeah, like they didn't been at a at a concert with me. Me king. George Uh f pj.  It don't matter I'm here man. I'm here. I'm supposed to be more cellist the saint tj tonight That's hard.   So even though I'm a fan of what you do I'm more of a fan of how you did it Like and where you at with it in So I that's probably the reason that's all man man. We love you brother I love y'all man. And uh, you on boss talk one-on-one. I don't know what you're being for you came here But we know That all things work together for the good for them that love god and are called according to his purpose Yes, sir. That's where I see when I give it to you like that. You don't get that new word This here. This is something totally different man. Yeah, I got another question I know the last question because they say R&B singers Because a lot of times you're singing about romance and all of that that y'all are one of the romantic type of people So if you were supposed to describe A romantic weekend or romantic date for you and your girl What would you do?  That's that's damn it every day Okay with us like the type of person I am it don't matter What we doing? Like it don't matter what we have nothing going on or whatever like it's just You know intimacy is different than you know, okay. What's the most romantic thing you've ever done for her? uh I have to say uh Valentine's day this past Valentine's day. Okay. What did you do because I did some shit?   The food was crazy. I ain't gonna lie The food was good. Yo, yo, yeah, where did you go? Uh, we didn't go nowhere I tricked her and uh brought everything to the house. Okay. Yeah pimp the house out. That's nice.  Do men hate that do y'all hate that? Yeah, y'all don't like that. Yeah, we come on. We do that. We do that for y'all That's never if I ever looked up anything to do anywhere sipping paint is not one of the things that I'm feeling We love that. I'm gonna stroke the scroll right past I'm not even gonna notice that Wow, man, uh, can't wait. She painted way better than me too. Of course She used to it. She's been doing it or thinking it. They think it I tried my best to do certain things and it's not easy. I didn't even finish mine. I was drunk Well, hey, man, thank you for coming on the show man again, man, this won't be the last time I really enjoyed you Um, I feel like when something new is popping up It's just like I tell all the other ones man. I'm a roll.  So I'm one of those guys that'll pull up on your city man and get out Right there. Come on. Yeah. Yeah for sure. Man. Check it, man It's been another great segment of boss talk 101 what a boss is talk and we out


All right, welcome everybody it's Friday afternoon and we are picking up testimony on age 329 which is an act relating to amending the prohibitions against discrimination we have taken testimony on the starting in January. And with us today I asked for Yang and Julio Thompson to come back to testify on this they testified on the first day that we took testimony on that and so if Or are you here. I see Julio. Hi. I suppose I have to go hi so you can see us who's talking. So, I assume that you've been following along the testimony that we've heard for the last couple of weeks here and there and I just wanted to come back because your presentations were very thorough and you know under other circumstances we'd say sure let's go for it today. But we've taken testimony from from that have provided different, different views. And I just wanted to come back so that we could hear from you again what what the intent of the bills are and why it was constructed the way it was constructed we've heard We've got a Douglas we've heard about severe pervasive severe and pervasive severe and or you know just we've heard a lot of different things that have that have. So I want to return to the original context. Before we start marking up the bill. And so I just like to start with board and and then we'll come back to Julio after that and we'll have questions so welcome back for Thank you. Yes, thank you for having me back. Just for the record boring executive director and legal counsel for the Vermont Human Rights Commission, and I do want to thank all of you for inviting me back to testify in this bill I have been following the testimony. And I think the thing that I want to address first and foremost is probably the most important part of this bill, and that is addressing the severe pervasive standard that has been used by courts to analyze hostile work hostile school and hostile housing environments. As I shared on my first testimony. This standard has become impossible to me and no longer reflects what your average person would consider a hostile work or a hostile school or a hostile housing environment. I shared stories of women being subjected to unwelcome touches by their supervisors and coworkers in the courts finding that it's not severe because they were unable to show that it had an impact on their performance on the job. I shared stories of women being subjected to weekly comments about their bodies and sexual innuendos and the court finding that it was not sufficiently pervasive, because it had just not occurred frequently enough. The severe pervasive standard is both confusing and too great a burden to bear. Yes, there have been a few courts that have adapted an even stricter standard called severe and pervasive. The courts require that a hostile behavior be both sufficiently severe and pervasive enough. But that is the minority of courts that is not the current legal standard, the current legal standard is severe or pervasive. And it is not necessary for this committee or the legislature to clarify that the standard is not severe and pervasive but instead severe or pervasive. Keeping the word and between severe and pervasive in this bill, because currently the bill by mistake has the word and in it, keeping that word in here would mean that the committee only intends to correct those few courts that have wrongly applied a much stricter standard to hostile housing school and workplaces cases. In doing so, you in fact codify the severe or pervasive standard, which is completely the opposite of what this bill seeks to do. The intent of this bill is not is to address the going current standard of severe or pervasive, because it is too high of a burden to bear. And it is very dangerous to keep the word and in here, because you would then be taking a position that what courts have done in the last so many years it in analyzing hostile environment cases, and finding that those women that I talked about who had experienced a lot of bad places, you would be then taking a position that that is okay, that what has happened to women and minorities and people with disabilities, and people in the LGBTQ community and workplaces housing and schools is acceptable, and therefore not actionable. I just would remind us to go back to the intent of the bill, which is to clarify and address the going and current standard a severe or pervasive and not seek here to codify that instead. I mean, several of us were able to put together a proposed amendment to this bill. And if I may share, can I share my screen. Sure, is she a co host yet. Just a minute. We're going to make you a co host. Yes. Okay, let's see. Yeah, great. So I apologize that this was provided so late, but it took a couple of tries. So these amendments are being presented by me but they are on behalf of the Vermont chapter of the National Association of Social Workers, the Vermont network against domestic and sexual violence, and the National Women's Law Center. I also believe that if we had enough time that many of the witnesses who have already testified and supported this bill would also be signatories to this proposed amendment as well. The first proposed amendment is that we get rid of that word and as I mentioned, and insert the word or between severe or pervasive, and that should be done under the three areas of law here, both the Fair Employment Practices Act, the Vermont Fair Housing and Public Accommodations Act, and the harassment laws in education as well. So the proposal proposed that we delete the language that says behavior that a reasonable employee with the same protective characteristics would consider to be a petty slight or trivial inconvenience shall not constitute unlawful harassment and discrimination pursuant to the section. The proposal is that we delete that so that we can borrow language that comes from the Virginia bill that many of us testified is actually much more comprehensive and helpful to courts in using a new standard if we are dismantling the severe or pervasive standard. But before I get to that I do want to say that we want to also add verbal written visual or physical conduct to the definitions of sexual harassment. The words substantially and the word performance should be deleted from the part of the law with regards to the conduct or purpose or effect. And the reason for that is that what courts have done is they look to see not just whether the behavior that is bad is in itself creates a hospital environment, they look to see the impact of that behavior on someone's educational outcome. They look to see whether that behavior has an impact on someone's performance at work. We have someone who is subjected to a hostile work environment who is still performing well in the job that does not make it okay that they are being subjected to hostility. You can have a kid in school who is being called derogatory words on a regular basis, who is still getting A's in the classroom. That does not make it okay for that child to have to work that much harder to earn those A's. So when we remove substantially and we remove performance from both the definitions and under the Fair Employment Practices Act, as well as in our education laws and in our public accommodations and fair housing laws is that we take away courts looking to see what was the impact of the hostility on you and did you fail at school or did you fail on the job in order for us to find that you have a cognizable claim of hostile environment here. The language that we have for me ask a question on that. Yes, please. Can you, can you make the screen a little bit bigger, the text. Oh yeah yeah let me try. Just reload your. There you go. That's great now I'm at 2020 now thank you. So the words that are deleted here substantially and performance are you. I mean I when I hear you talk about them I view them as much more subjective is that is that because it's it's leaving it up to the court. It's leaving it up to the court to define what substantial or performance is. And that's what I think we're aiming to correct here is that I mean that that's too loose because different opinions can mean different people can mean different things. So the purpose of deleting substantially and performance. The plaintiff still has to show that what has happened to them had an effect, and it interfered with their work, and it created intimidating hostile and offensive work environment. They still have that burden they still carry the burden of having to show that there was some type of interference, and that it created an intimidating intimidating environment. So one is the courts to say, but, but how much did it interfere with your performance. Did you go from an A to would be, did you go from a to a D in the classroom, or did you not pass probation because of the hostility. That's what we're trying to avoid here is having court look at the impact on someone's work performance or the impact on someone's school performance and courts had been doing that. And the goal here is to say that that sort of analysis is not necessarily the best or most appropriate analysis for determining the hostility that this individual has had to go through in order to still achieve those same outcomes. Okay representative person. I said a question with the beginning of that sense there. You're saying that it would, they'd have to show that they were substantial, you know, there's substantial interference with their work and or their performance but doesn't the first section of having the purpose of they wouldn't have to show that there was any substantial interference. There wouldn't even have to be any of just that was the purpose of. Right. Yeah purpose or effect. So we have purpose or effect so can show that the purpose of is to interfere, or did the effect of, but I think the key here is to get rid of the word substantially so we don't have courts weighing how bad was it in terms of the outcome. The outcome of someone's performance in school or in work to determine how much of the interference that occurred. I just want to say we see a lot of cases at the Human Rights Commission, where someone was still able to earn a's in the classroom, even though they were being called a derogatory racial slur or another term related to their disability on a regular basis. And we what we are trying to avoid here is having courts go. Well, you did well. So apparently it didn't substantially interfere with your, your school performance. But in reality, you cannot capture the fact that that kid worked that much harder to earn those a's in that classroom, because of what they were going through. So that's the purpose of getting rid of substantially and getting rid of per performance here. They still carry the burden of showing that the conduct has the purpose for effect of interfering, but that the idea here is to get rid of the analysis that courts have been doing around outcomes. I think that's a good side of Murphy has a question. Yes, thank you so much for being with us and I know that your time is is challenging to share out so I can understand, looking at and I have to admit I've read it had a little bit, but looking at what you're providing to us with a recommendation of amendments, but it amends three different volumes of our statute so so we, and I'm new to the committee this season. Perhaps I'm speaking out of turn but but so now we're doing not just labor but commerce and education with the amendments you're providing so I'm just. I think it's noble to have the broad reach and to have this out here but I'm just curious if, if this is your intention to broaden us and have it become a bigger discussion or if you're just offering us some thoughts. The original bill as introduced already seeks to amend all three areas that my amendments or our amendments today really only creates consistency between all three areas but while the majority of the witnesses that have testified before this committee were relying on workplace harassment. The reality is is that the bill as introduced seeks to change the anti discrimination laws across all three areas. My apologies I see that I grow far enough on my on my copy you're right and thank you for bringing that to light for me that I hadn't seen that. No problem. Like I said, again, I think a lot of witnesses were experts in the workplaces and that they testified to that so the focus has been on that that you may remember that some of your original witnesses were also from legal aid and CEO EO such that I'm not going to say right. I'm going to remember all of that right but I just I meant from CBO EO testified because they also support this in housing as well and the Human Rights Commission has jurisdiction over all 3 areas. Both the harassment laws and in the education laws as well as the Fair Housing and Public Accommodations Act and the San employment practices act as it relates to government employees. I think there makes sense for there to be a commonality of harassment and how we look at it. I don't think it should depend on what silo you're in, whether you're being harassed or not. And I would just say, I'm having a little trouble hearing you periodically too, so I don't know if your microphone can just be brought a little closer to you or if it's... I'll try my best. Thank you. Yeah. Yeah, now you're clear. It's just, it was somehow how you were moving that I was losing you. Okay. Yeah, thank you. I was going to say nobody's ever had to tell me to speak up. So it's new. It's new. Yeah. All right. Thank you. Thank you for you. Let's keep going. Okay. So the other proposed amendment here that I mentioned is instead of the trivial or slight offenses is that we adopt the language that comes from the Virginia bill, which I think is more comprehensive. And I'm happy to answer questions around it too. But here it is underlined and embold. In determining whether conduct constitutes harassment as defined in this chapter, the following rules shall apply. A, a determination shall be made on the basis of the record as a whole according to the totality of the circumstances. And a single incident may constitute harassment. B, incidents that may be harassment shall be considered in the aggregate with a conduct of varying types, including expressions of sex-based hostility, requests for sexual favors, and denial of employment opportunities due to sexual orientation, viewed in totality rather than in isolation, and conduct based on multiple protective characteristics including sex and race viewed in totality rather than in isolation. Conduct may be workplace harassment regardless of whether the complaining party is the individual being harassed. The complaining party at West or otherwise submitted to or participated in the conduct. The conduct is also experienced by others outside of the protected class involved. The complaining party was able to continue carrying out duties and responsibilities of the party's job. Despite the conduct, the conduct caused a tangible or psychological injury or the conduct occurred outside of the workplace. Okay. So these, this what I believe creates a much more comprehensive list of factors for courts to use to analyze harassment than just simply suggesting that they not be trivial slights or petty slights. And this is important because what we do know is that courts have had trouble analyzing hostile environment cases when a plaintive belongs in intersectional identities. So in the past, when a woman is also a woman of color, and she was subjected to racial slurs, plus sexual innuendos, courts would isolate the analysis and say, well, those racial slurs occurred only a few times, not severe. And though that sexual innuendo only occurred a few times, that's also not severe or pervasive. This requires courts look at the totality of the circumstances, the big picture, and look at who is creating the hostility here, who is receiving the hostility here, and is it interfering with or doesn't have the purpose or effect of interfering with their work or their housing or their schooling. And so I think that this is really helpful to courts to set forth a much clearer standard for how to do that. You'll see here under section C, conduct, maybe workplace harassment, regardless of weather. And it lists these factors because different courts have found different required additional factors that creates a lot of confusion in terms of how to analyze it. Some courts have said, well, you need psychological injury. I need to see that you went to see a therapist and there's damages connected to that. Or, oh, it didn't happen within the four corners of the building. And so therefore, it's outside the workplace. Or we know that with kids that harassment is happening on school buses. Harassment is happening on field trips. Harassment is happening on the field, off campus when they are playing games. We know that that is occurring. So we want to also capture the fact that harassment can be occurring in environments that are controlled by schools and housing providers and supervisors and managers, even if that conduct is not within the building specifically or the property adjacent to the building specifically. And then the rest of the amendments seek to do the same thing in the Fair Housing and Public Accommodations Act. You'll see here we're asking that we get rid of the word substantially as well, borrow again from the Virginia law and also same thing with under the Education Harassment Laws also. And so, yes, that is the some of the amendments that our group would like to propose to the committee. I know that there are a lot of other questions regarding other parts of the bill, which of course, to me are very important. But I wanted to make sure that we had enough time to talk about what I believe is the most important part of 329 and answer any questions that you may have about this or any other parts. Senator Murphy. Thank you again. I appreciate the piece where you're removing the word performance. I think that especially when you look at the educational portion, but in any of them, it's it could have interfered with my ability, my experience, but I may have overcome it and perform just as well as anyone might expect. And so it's an outside determination, whether it was a problem, as opposed to just a hurdle I had to get over. So thank you for bringing that forward. Oh, I do have one question because you said the other pieces, would it be okay if you want to finish with this? There was on CHI on page three, the General Assembly finds that claims of unlawful discrimination, a whole piece about the summary judgment. We had several recommendations that we shouldn't be speaking there. Do you feel that it endangers anything by just removing that? Um, I don't let me say that that is a lesser priority for the Human Rights Commission. And if that's the thing that is the barrier to moving this bill forward, then I would understand the committee's position on that. My feeling about that is that when you are creating a new legal standard, that you want to make sure that courts aren't still using this body of law that they've been using for years to say that the law is so clear and someone is entitled to win. The whole purpose of summary judgment is the law is so clear someone is entitled to win. What we're actually saying now the law is not clear. This is new. We're using a new standard here. And so it's not necessarily appropriate to move forward to grant summary judgment. And mind you, the piece around summary judgment is not actually suggesting that courts couldn't grant a motion for summary judgment. It's just saying we don't necessarily think that that's the best approach or most appropriate approach. But I defer to you. I know that there was some arguments that seem to be compelling. Thank you. Representative Fango. Thank you. Section 221, VSA number 13A, which I believe Representative Murphy just referred to. I thought she was going to get this cleared up for me with her question. I don't think she did. So the phrase, the conduct has the purpose or effect of interfering with an individual's work is problematic for me because I don't understand what exactly that could encompass. To me that could encompass just about anything. And there again, the burden of proof would be on the person who is doing the harassment for the discriminatory behavior. And it is up to the victim or the alleged victim to tell, to say what effect it had of interfering with their work. And the alleged perpetrator would have to prove that they did not have an effect. on their work. So that's problematic for me. So the burden of proof is always on the plaintiff. There are a few circumstances in laws that where the burden shifts back and forth. But the burden of proof, improving any kind of discrimination case, including a hostile environment case, is always on the plaintiff. They carried the burden. So they would have to show and prove that what they experienced interfered with their work or had the purpose or effect of interfering with their work. So that could be a kid in middle school who said I was called this derogatory term on a regular weekly and I went home and I cried and I told my mom and my mom spent many hours at night working with me on my homework. And I, yeah, I still got an A, but it did impact me. And they would be testifying to that effect. And it would be up to a judge or a jury to decide whether that person is credible, whether what that person shared was true. Usually mom would probably testify as a witness to say that my kid did come home every night crying because they were called this derogatory term at school on a weekly basis, that this was happening to them. So the burden is still always on them. And they do carry that burden. Thank you. I think I used the wrong term by saying burden of proof. I was more thinking, actually, I was thinking at this from an adult's point of view, not a child. So you do bring up a good point when you talk about children in school being discriminated against. However, I was thinking of discrimination in the workplace. And these are adults who could speak for themselves. So I don't know. I still think it's, it's quite broad, but I'll leave it at that for now. Thank you. 100% of kalaki. All right, Damien, are you able to join us at this? As well. I'm right here. I just want to make sure I understood. And I'm on page three of the bill, line eight, and it's about the decision not to pursue an internal grievance, allowing determinative. Damien, did I understand correctly that you said currently the statutes are silent on this issue? This is yeah, it's not currently addressed in statute. What this addresses is a defense that employers can put forward against liability called the Farragur L earth defense. And this is the second prong of that defense, which in which if the employer can show the employee was unreasonably elected not to pursue an internal grievance process, the employer can succeed on that defense. So it's the basis of the fence and both Julio and Bork can probably state this much more accurately than I can. But the basis of the defense is basically that the employer has an effective, has taken effective measures to prevent discrimination from occurring. And then that the employee unreasonably failed to take advantage of the internal process for addressing the discrimination that occurred. So therefore, the employer shouldn't be liable for the discrimination that occurred. So it's basically what this does is it relates to that and it says that the failure to use that internal grievance process is not determinative. So and I did invite both Bork and Julio who have far more experience in this area than me to correct anything I may have misstated or to add additional detail. Well, I certainly would love to hear from both Julio and Bork. I was intrigued with other testimony about this that, you know, some employees, employers, are trying to set up these systems to make them work and affect change in their organization. So I'm wondering if we were silent on this particular issue if for Bork or Yang, if that would weaken the bill or the attention of the bill. Again, I think this bill, you know, brings up a lot of important parts and the most important is the severe or pervasive piece of it. But having said that, I think we did also hear testimony from several people that suggested that it can be incredibly difficult for an employee to exhaust that internal grievance process and unfair to require them to do so. This language in the bill comes from New York City's statue and what it does is, and Damian, you did a really great job of explaining it, but what it does is it addresses an affirmative defense. I want to clarify that there are defenses and then there are affirmative defenses. Affirmative defenses when they're raised by a defendant says, you lose. You lose if I can show that this happened, that I had this grievance process and you didn't exhaust it, it feels like an automatic lose. And so the idea here is and why the language is not determinative is you may have that, but this lawsuit should still proceed. You may still present that information, but it shouldn't determine the outcome of a harassment claim. That's the idea. Okay, thank you. And William? Yeah, on this, you know, this language was brought from the 2019 New York law. And by its terms, it's not limited to the affirmative defense in a supervisor case. And in my initial testimony, I raised the question of what effect, if any, that section about failure to participate in the complaint process, filing a complaint is part of the complaint process. What would happen in a coworker case where the conduct isn't witnessed and the employee doesn't complain is the employer nonetheless liable, whereas under a current law, they're not liable unless they knew about it and failed to take corrective action. So I think I mentioned in my introductory testimony last time that I was making an effort to talk to the New York agency that's our counterpart the HRC's counterpart for New York State, which has been applying this law since 2019 to ask them what it meant. And I did have that conversation this week with the general counsel for the New York State Commission on Human Rights, which is tasked with enforcing the law. And I put to them the same example I gave you what if it's a coworker or a third party like a customer at a restaurant who routinely harasses the waitstaff but it's not witnessed by the employer or a manager and it's not reported to the employer. What happens then? How do how would you apply the law then? And the answer I was a little surprising. The answer was we don't know. We didn't write that language. No one asked us about it when they added it in the law. I think I don't know. I'm not sure if it was a joke or not, but saying that this law was passed at midnight with a flurry of amendments. And they're not sure. They have only had to apply it in the cases where there is a supervisor who engages in harassment but no other action like they don't reduce wages or increase wages or reassign somebody for which under the existing law there is no affirmative defense. But they haven't had a case where a coworker or a third party is harassing a complainant and the only way the employer could find out about it, management could find out about it, would be through a complaint. So they don't know. They haven't said whether and they said it's too soon for there haven't been cases that have gone to court on that fact pattern because cases may resolve for other reasons unrelated to that legal issue. So I can't tell you what the scope of it is. I think that as it's written, if it were applied to the coworker harasser or the third party harasser, then it basically would be strict liability for harassment that happens at least on the employer's premises and maybe off the employer's premises. You could have guests who come into the establishment and if the employer doesn't have an up, even if the employer credibly presents evidence that had they known they would have taken corrective action. If the law it would be changed here to be that you're liable nonetheless, and it's just a question of damages, then that would be a pretty significant change to tort law. There's nowhere I know in the United States that that's had or proposed strict liability. And like said, my counterparts in New York are not sure that's what was intended here. So the committee and they're looking at this may want to look at the context of the defeating that supervisor exception, that affirmative defense, as opposed to more broadly because I think you want to I think if it's going to be strict liability, that's what the legislature wants to do. They should just say it that an employer is strictly liable for harassment by its employees or people who are on its premises rather than leaving it leaving the uncertainty for the parties there. So I'm sorry, that's an unsatisfactory answer from New York. I perceived it wasn't stated, but I perceived that there was some dissatisfaction from New York about that languages, or at least the enforcement agency about that as well. New York City, who had an ordinance which from which a lot of the New York sorry, New York City, their law from which much of which the New York State law was based, didn't have that provision rather the failure to participate or to report might doesn't affect liability, the same standards still apply, but might, you know, wouldn't limit damages. So it was a different formulation. So I think it's a bit of a question mark for us. I did have some comments about severe and pervasive, but maybe it's not the right time. I'll let the committee decide that. Oh, well, I think, no, I think, let's consider that the baton is the past to you. Okay. Well, thank you. So I haven't the borers memo I didn't receive a copy so I was just looking at it in real time on the screen like the rest of you. But there are a number of things that bore said that I agree with would be sensible. I think a lot of the standards or language that she wants to put in, I think describes the existing case law in Vermont. And in the second circuit where Vermont resides to give an example and I'm not sure what what cases were being referenced but like the factor to give one example like putting in statute that the inch that you don't need to suffer psychological harm in order to make a claim of hostile work environment harassment. That's been the law in the United States since 1993. In a decision, Justice Sandra Day O'Connor, then Justice O'Connor wrote in a case called Harris versus Forklift, the employer's defense in that case was that the the workers failure to show psychological damage defeated her claim. And the Supreme Court ruled in that case that one does not need to show psychological harm. I'm not aware of any case in Vermont at the Superior Court Supreme Court Labor Relations Board District Court or the second circuit that takes a contrary view. So if the legislature wants to put it in a statute, I think that's fine. I mean, Harris was a Title VII case. And we do have Vermont Supreme Court precedent saying we look to Title VII cases for guidance because of our law is patterned after it's not exact it's not exact copy but it's it's patterned after Title VII. So from our enforcement position, we've never turned away a complaint for lack of showing psychological injury. I'd be surprised if the HRC ever has. And I'd be very surprised if a Vermont court did that. And I'm not a fortune teller, but it would be hard for me to imagine the Vermont Supreme Court would come out to that result. So it's in the Virginia bill, but the law in Virginia and its circuit might be different. But I think it describes existing law in Vermont in the second circuit, and certainly in federal courts, because that's the Harris case. I don't have the language available to me on the bill or the amendments in front of me, but in terms of substantial interference with work, I don't know if anyone put it back on there. I think there seem to be, it seemed to me at least as I was hearing the testimony that there wasn't a recognition that the rest of the sentences and or that it said it has the purpose of effect of substantially interfering or creating an intimidating offensive and hostile environment. So as the law exists now, you don't have to show substantial interference and indeed, as the law is written now, you don't have to show any interference. But you would have to go to the second part of the sentence and show that it was an intimidating, hostile, an offensive work environment. So we in the CRU have never seen, we have never used as like the lynchpin test, can you prove that your work has gone down? That might be a factor in assessing, but certainly not a required factor. It might be a factor in determining how offensive was it, how hostile was it to you. And so I'm not sure that substituting substantially interfering or interfering would have that much effect on the cases that we have. I would say substantially interfering, I mean, it gets a little bit like angels on the head of a pen to an extent because even if everyone admits it didn't interfere with my work, the legal question still remains. Was it offensive? Was it hostile? Was it intimidating? Notwithstanding that it wasn't substantially interfering. And our practice that I think Vermont courts, if they find the answers yes to any of those big questions, you could still have liability notwithstanding the lack of substantial interference. So it's not a requirement now. It's one of several doors that a complainant can go through. On the issue of the purpose or effect, in practice that purpose, I'm not aware of any case where, and I'd be interested in hearing one, where the conduct had the purpose but zero effect and was still viewed as a violation of the law. That is, if I'm a harasser that isn't the brightest and I'm hostile to a particular person in my office, and I think that calling someone mediocre is the worst thing that you can call anybody because it was something I was called when I was a kid and it really hurt my feelings. And I quit whatever I quit. And then so I tell someone I call them mediocre. And I have the purpose of creating a hostile work environment for them. But it's undisputed that the person who heard it was not offended by it or thought it was petty, was not intimidated by it. I don't think we or the Human Rights Commission in that case would find that a blow that doesn't land, an offensive letter that gets lost in the mail, is actionable if there is actually no effect on the complainant. So it's a word in the statute that pre-existed all of us I think here in the room and being involved with the bill. But I don't think it's particularly problematic in practice. So we just proceed and say what kind of environment was involved here. One reason that you still need to focus on effect is a reason that no one's mentioned yet, which is that this is a government created sanction. And some of the conduct that's involved here is speech. And so whenever we look at speech, we always have to ask whether the speech is protected or not by the First Amendment or by the Vermont Constitution. Because not all, because not because a single utterance, there are certain political views or religious views that can be uttered by workers in a discussion, which might express views about equality that might prove offensive to other people. You could have at a company picnic, for example, someone who's new to the United States and says, well, where we come from, women don't do manual labor. That's a gender-based statement uttered in the workplace. It has a gender slant to it, but it also might have a religious basis as well. And constitutionally, to punish someone or subject them to suit for making a statement with no kind of impact on anybody else would be difficult. The basis for regulating speech in the workplace comes from the legislature's constitutional authority to regulate business. And that harassment is a form of interfering with someone's ability to participate in the economy. That's not what we haven't really focused on that. But that's where your authority comes from, our Congress's authority to regulate interstate commerce. And so the underlying question in our harassment case, and this will circle around to where I think Boron and I are standing really closely together, which is that the focus really is on whether the conduct is interfering with someone's right to enjoy their employment on equal terms with people who are not subject to the harassment. It's not about like how much you can take, how bad is bad and you can't take it any longer.  Or are they on a lesser feeling? Is the job less welcoming, less comfortable to them? Do they feel like they're equal partners, notwithstanding whatever the conduct is? And that's why it was appropriate, I think, in some of the language here to note that it's not necessarily sexualized, like dirty talk or whatever, but it can also be hostility towards a particular group towards women to use to keep with my example. So someone who expresses in their various different ways that women shouldn't drive big trucks in our organization and there's an express and there are various behaviors that show a hostility towards women working certain jobs, comparing them to men who don't receive those comments or the rolled eyes or the cartoons or whatever it is, that's fundamentally what you're looking at. And I think some of the jurisprudence here has got caught up in this idea of like human endurance, how bad is it have to be before a human being gives up, can't take any longer. And I think part of the focus on the severe and pervasive standard is a recognition that courts have focused more on that rather than on are you enjoying, you know, we would all have no difficulty deciding a case if an employer had a policy that said in our, you know, our lakeside adjacent offices, all the inner offices, the ones without windows go to women and only the outer windows with the view of Lake Champlain in the mountains go to men. If that were the official policy, we would have very little difficulty saying that that is violation of the terms and conditions of employment because you have unequal treatment and it's not, you don't have to prove that you can't endure being working inside of an interior office. It's rather that your participation in the economy is different than people of the opposite gender because of your sex. And I think the idea of zeroing in on that, on workplace economy, you know, is really an appropriate subject for the committee to be discussing because really that's your authority is to regulate the economy. And that's why you have to look at how it affects somebody's ability to work. So I'll stop there. I'm in time for a while. Representative Fango. I think I'm good. Thank you. I'd completely forgotten what I was going to ask Julio. Okay, nice. You got full mastered. All right. Any further questions right now for either for or Julio? Representative Parsons. One quick one was on the suggestions that Morgan had put up on the screen. One of them was about the they're not having to take place in the workplace. I think was the wording. That just seems, I think, taken from Virginia maybe. That just seems the language of it, I guess problematic. I mean, I would imagine that the workplace is, you know, to different for everybody from my workplace. It's the shop, my van, somebody's house. That's all my workplace. I mean, and as far as the schools go, the school is anywhere where the school system is in charge of the children, you know, the bus is included, field trips are included, playgrounds included. Well, I think there's a couple of things and I'm not the expert here on education or public accommodations because the civil rights unit doesn't practice in that space. I will point out, I think Bore made and the Virginia legislation makes quite a good point that especially in the digital age we are now that connecting it to the brick and mortar institution, the employer's premises. I'm talking to you from my house. This is the mudroom behind me. And so we routinely encounter cases where employers or coworkers are sending obscene text messages to subordinates or coworkers, even though they may be in different states or countries. A teacher sending lewd texts while he's on vacation in Venice to a student that is in Rutland is still going to have an effect on that student's educational opportunities, notwithstanding the fact that they're thousands of miles away. So I think that existing case law recognizes that there still has to be a connection to your institution because that's what you're regulating is an equal workplace or equal job or school or enjoyment of a public accommodation. So merely saying that it doesn't have to be on your brick and mortar. I mean, I think that's existing law and codifying it. I don't think it's an issue at all. But there is, I think courts are able to distinguish examples that have come up where a coworker, an employee sees another worker doing something at a mass sports event. There have been cases where people have removed parts of their clothing hundreds of yards away with their group of friends at a sports event and is seen by a coworker who then becomes uncomfortable. Courts would say you need to show more connection that it was directed at you, that it had some effect on you rather than being some happenstance where someone's employed in public doing something that made you feel uncomfortable. So merely saying that it doesn't have to be on your premises, I think I certainly don't think that increases risk or problems to the employers. And I think it's helpful. It's very likely descriptive of the law that's existed in Vermont all the time. And so it wouldn't be something that I think there are other issues here for the committee, I think, to have questions about. I don't consider that like a significant one. I'd be surprised if you heard employers say otherwise. Okay, yeah, that was just one thing. It seemed dodgy. I mean, yeah. Representative Clacky, Julio, I know Representative Murphy had asked for about the subred judgment component. And I'm wondering if you have any thoughts on that piece of the bill. I think I'm with more here, as she said before, I don't think it's very important point. Putting aside, I mean, there are rules about the standards for when to decide summary judgment in civil cases under Rule 56 of the Vermont Rules of Civil Procedure, which are put out by the judiciary. Supreme Court decides what the standard is and puts it in that rule. So there's, you know, this kind of an interesting academic discussion about separation of powers and whether legislature, you know, they can they can say when judges should apply their own rule, their own standard. And it also there's a practical question if, you know, many spirit or judges might get four employment cases a year. And so how a judge is supposed to decide in a given case, I whether it should be rare. So like I decided summary judgment in a different case. And now if I do two in a year, is that rare enough? So I'm not really sure. Articulated in that matter, really, really does much at all. It'd be you may want to hear from Judsoni or others in the judiciary about that. You know, there are other ways there are other aspects that that may be legislated like who has the burden of proof, whether a given issue is a question of fact versus a question of law. So questions of law go to judges questions of fact go to juries. And then there's something called a mixed question of fact and law, which a judge may be able to decide in some circumstances in some circumstances it gets kicked over to juries. But I you know, I think as it's written now, I'm not sure how it would affect judicial behavior because I'm not sure it's efficiently concrete for judges to make much sense of that that the general I mean, the standard is if your facts are not dispute if the facts before the judge are not disputed, and the law says those facts are not sufficient, then you decide for the defendant if they are sufficient you decide for the plaintiff. And so to say it should be rarely applied seems to be I'm not sure how that helps a judge the judge is going to do we have a factual dispute or not. In cases in harassment, facts are often disputed. You said this no I didn't that's a jury question. This this created an intimidating environment for me. We disagree that's a jury question. So I'm not sure it really does a whole lot. I don't think I don't think having any in would likely affect things judges might disagree and I don't think having it out weakens it if you're going to advance the other things that you're going to do. So I agree with for I don't think it's the biggest. It's the biggest asset. Well, thank you for your time and for your for your testimony on this thank you for providing us with these amendments for us to consider truly appreciate that. Okay, we're going to take a five minute break and then we're going to move over to age 244. Again, Julio and board, thank you so much. Have a good weekend. Thank you for seeing you all. Thank you, boy. Thanks. Amen.


What I want to do in this video is something similar to a previous video We did where I'm going to give you the graph of function f. We're not going to give you a formula We're just looking at the graph right here, and we want to identify What does the derivative of this graph f look like based upon the graph f? So the first thing we're going to do is we're going to look for where places where the derivative would be undefined So we've learned previously that the derivative so f prime of x here It does not exist when a couple of things happen first you have discontinuities Right or if there's any place where the function is discontinuous where f is discontinuous then the derivative will likewise be Undefined for which we look at this graph right here. It's completely continuous. There's no problem with continuity whatsoever Another thing we have to look for is going to be sharp corners Places where the function is not smooth and we see a couple of those And we see at least one here on the graph you can see there's a sharp corner right here Another place which might be suspicious would be right here, but you actually see that the transition from Curve to flat is actually smooth. There's no corner right there So we did get one place where the functions discontinued or what the derivative will be undefined And so it's not differentable at that point x equals 3 and then the other thing we have to look for is going to be vertical tangent lines Vertical tangents which our graph has we can see some of those right there There actually would be a vertical tangent line right here, but it's already a corner So we're throwing that one out. There's gonna be a vertical tangent line right here at x equals negative two There's also a vertical tangent line at x equals negative six So if we summarize What we've discovered so far we see that our function will be the derivative will be undefined at x equals negative six at x equals negative two and at three and So some things we should then compare when we look at these graphs together Is that when you have a vertical tangent line on the function that corresponds to a vertical acin tote to the derivative?  There was also one at x equals negative two negative two And then also like I said at this point at this point over here three if you approach from the right There is gonna be this vertical tangent line There's also a horizontal tangent line from the left again This is the reason why sharp corners are a problem the left approach of the tangent line will disagree from the right approach The left approach wants to be horizontal the right approach wants to be vertical So we're gonna see something very bizarre in our graph when we look at that But it turns out there's gonna be a vertical acin tote on the derivative likewise at x equals three So we're gonna prepare for those things as well So let's look at some other weird behavior that's happening on this graph What's happening here at x equals three because of the sharp corner the approach from the left wants to be zero The approach from the right wants to be Vertical acin tote so what we see is as you approach x equals three from the left Well everywhere in this sector right here is gonna be flat. It's completely flat It's a constant region the derivative is gonna be zero in all of those locations So what we see on our graph as we try to plot it is that from x equals Zero to x equals three the function is completely flat We see this right here completely flat And I'm gonna put an open dot right there because the function is undefined at x equals three on the other hand if you're to the right of F of x are right of excuse me x equals three. We're gonna have this vertical tangent line It's gonna be important whether it's positive or negative or a little bit to this to the to the right there We see that it's gonna be a negative slope and so what this tells us is so we approach acin tote three on the derivative from the right We're gonna be going towards negative infinity So be coming down like this and then if we kind of finish this up What's happening as we can closer and closer to x equals six it's gonna get flatter flatter flatter There's gonna be a horizontal tangent line at x equals six and so that's gonna be an x intercept on our graph right here So we see with our function. I'm gonna erase this part and try again We're gonna see some type of asymptotic behavior looking something like this. All right come back to this point right here X equals zero is kind of curious to us and also negative two is curious We see that when we're a little bit to the left of negative two Right, we're gonna have a positive slope That's a positive tangent line very very steep So we're gonna be really close to infinity over here But then as we get closer and closer to zero this thing's gonna flatten out to be a horizontal So what we see would be a function looks something like this So these this will come here and touch at the origin zero zero and as you approach x equals negative two from the right You're gonna be positive infinity. All right, so the last thing I want to show you here is notice that at negative four There's a horizontal Tantent line that's gonna be an x intercept of the derivative So we anticipate an x intercept right here if you're a little bit to the right Excuse me if you're a little bit to the left of negative two that's gonna be a positive Tangent and so we should be close to infinity over here on the other hand If you are a little bit to the right of negative six, that's gonna be a negative slope And so we should be a little bit over here So kind of putting those together and connecting in a nice smooth way We're gonna get a picture that kind of looks like a tangent curve We get something like this here in green and this sort of monstrosity of a function Would be the graph of f prime right here I don't want you to necessarily take my word for it and also because my picture might not be the best drawn right here Let's look at a computer generated image of these things So you see again the function f that we had from before and now graph to the right We have a picture of its derivative with all those behaviors We saw there and so this can get a little bit messy a little bit confusing But the important part is that we can derive the picture of the derivative from the function f And that's why we call it the derivative because it is derived from that original function And so that's gonna end our trilogy in lectures 16 17 and 18 I hope you enjoyed all of this learning about the derivative for our lecture series math 12 10 and chapter 3 We're gonna talk a lot more about the derivative and focus on techniques We can use to make our computations of derivative much more fetch much more efficient So, please take a look for those links right now if you've learned anything about the derivative in these videos feel free to hit the like button and Subscribe if you want to see more videos like this in the future as always if you have any questions Please feel free to post them in the comments and I'll be happy to answer them as soon as I can have a great day everyone. Bye