Welcome back to the Cyber Underground. Yes, I'm back. You could not get rid of me. I'm Dave, the professor, no longer the cyber guy because there's an actual cyber guy out there. Sorry. But the professor sticks because, you know, I work at the University of Hawaii, Capulian Community College. I teach ethical hacking and network security. And I have to repeat that every time because you guys need to know where I'm coming from in my universe. New background. Hope you love it. Please don't be a hater. Yes, I teach you to college right outside of Waikiki. Now with that, let's go into how we're going to assist our veterans. I'm one. I got one with me. Former Command Sergeant Major of the United States Army retired. Welcome, Robert Bullin. Thank you, Dave. I'm honored to have you here, sir. Thank you very much. Tell us a little bit about who you are, where you came from, and what you do and why you do it. Okay, because I know we've both got a passion for this. Yeah, let me know. I did 30 years active duty army and did as a Command Sergeant Major. Was that a purpose or you had to do that instead of prison? Well, you know, things that won't be said. But it was really, it was a really good thing. I retired, followed my wife back here. She's a local girl. So we came back here to Hawaii. Good for you, man.  Get out. Exactly. Pretty much get a job, do something. So I took advantage of the G.I. Bill. And as I was going to school, there was a position that opened up for the community colleges and they wanted to do veteran outreach. So I'm like, okay, maybe I could do that. Because it was really important for me because I didn't know where to start. Yes, I know there's websites. There's all this nice stuff out there. But in the military, you say if you have a problem, you go to the individual, they'll talk to you, and then they'll set you on the right path. Well, that one person for me was at Leeward Community College and her name was Leanne Egan. Now let's back up a second. You were there in a Hawaiian Studies program. I was. Which I got to tell you, I'm grateful you did that. It's nice to know that people that come to the islands actually care about the Hawaiian culture and history. So you went in there and you got your AA, right? I did. I got an AA in Hawaiian Studies. I have a deep appreciation for the islands. I have a connection to the island. That's spiritual for lack of a better term. And I really enjoyed it. And I wanted to find out why I was feeling the way I did when I when I stepped foot on the INA. So it was a really good experience for me. Well, as that was winding down, all of a sudden they said, hey, we need somebody to talk to veterans about going to school specifically for cybersecurity and the healthcare field. And that's where me and you started that friendship and working on the TAC4 grant. So the TAC4 grant was something that came out of the Obama administration. We're on the tail end of that. I believe that was around four of that grant. We had approximately $10 million to spread over 10 campuses of the UH system in the state. And it had to be split between healthcare and cybersecurity. And you had to handle both. And we went around and you go around a lot of bases, talk to people in person, shake a lot of hands, tell people how's it going. And we created programs at the universities to support those efforts, yes, like curriculum and certificates, especially the certificates. And another thing with the outreach was to kind of tie in the military military bases and the folks that they have going to school there with the universities and show how how they could work together. So I think with that cybersecurity program, and then you enlighten me to a lot of different things that cybersecurity is like a nice umbrella. And there's a lot of other different things that fall up in there. A lot of different pathways in there. Exactly, along with certifications. And I still use what you say. If you like to sit and you're very neat and put papers where they have to be kind of like military regimented, then you need to be a programmer. If you want to sit up all night. Let's take a different path. Okay.  Excuse me, if you love chaos and you have beer cans and monster and you play Fortnite all night. That's a program or a hacker or a hacker. Yeah, but then you'd have 16 screens and four different computers at all times. You make it sound like that's a problem. It's not a problem. I really like it. And it opened my eyes to a lot of different things within the community college system and going back to what I experienced getting out of the military. What I want to talk about in a way is when you get out of the military, you have to go through your transition. All the branches go through and nobody's paying attention. I hate to say that they have some good people teaching classes, but you've already detached yourself from the military and you're on to the next thing in my civilian life. Well, it's a lot better than it used to be. Oh, much, much better. When I got out, it was gosh, the early 90s. And it was the gate shut behind me. And I still released, I had my bus ticket. Wow. That was it. Yeah. And nobody told me squat after that.  Yeah, I didn't know what to do. And I just wanted into community college by mistake. They didn't know how to get rid of me. So I just started taking classes. There you go. What was it like when you got out and how did we move to the new model that is still kind of challenging? Well, when I got out, it's they throw a lot of information at you. You feel like you're drinking from the fire hose, but you've already detached from the military. And you already have a plan or so you think was that Mike Tyson, everybody has a plan until they get hit in the mouth. Well, once you get out the gate, and you start thinking this great next thing, and you realize, Oh, that's not working, or it's not as easy as you think. Right. Then you have to do something. And it's either go get a job and trust me after I got out of the military after 30 years, I kind of hung out and did jobs. Um, was a trolley driver in Waikiki. As a matter of fact, for a company, enjoyed that.  Didn't know what I wanted to do. And like I say, at Leeward Community College, I went to their website. Nice website. But I'm like, what do I do called someone? And that's what's so important about my title. The title is not important. But what I do is as veterans outreach, I work with the veterans and even active duty folks that want to go to school, but they don't know where to start. Well, let's start by telling them where Leeward College is now. That's the college that's closest to Pearl Harbor. Yes. And Hickam Air Force Base, which is a joint base now. Correct. And it's also the college that Community College is closest to the newest for your university in that UH system, UH West. Correct. It's also right on the new rail line. So when that opens up in about 20 years, we'll get a rail line next those campuses together. So it's, it's a great campus. It's an up and coming campus. It's got a wonderful view of Pearl Harbor outside of the back, right? Yeah, exactly. So when I get folks that want to go to school, I don't pick campuses for them. I ask them what's more convenient for you because of the traffic and the situations that they have to go through. So it's like, which campus is better for you? I make an appointment with them and I will give them a tour of the campus. And I will show them all the people that are that have to be involved, such as the processing people. Who are your counselors there? Where do you have to turn your health records to? Where do you turn in your transcripts to? Now, we need this as military folks because that transition from military to civilian life, you get used to your chain of command. You know how the systems and processes work. And when you come out and you get into civilian life, it's the Wild West. Exactly. It's going every which way, but loose. And so when you come into academia, it's just one step shy of the Wild West. Exactly. And you have to show them, here's how you work the bureaucracy. Exactly. And what's nice about it is going back to the military, we're used to having sponsorships, no matter what base you went to, from me going from Germany over to the states and then having a PCF transition to another base. We always had someone on the other end that met us and your family and says, hey, let me show you around, let me show you the ropes, let me show you where you got to go. So it was important for me to not only, even though Lee Wood was my home campus, to know about Kapielani, to know about Honolulu Community College, to know about Wynward Community College, and also the Outer Islands. So it's not just Oahu-centric. I also cover all the outlying campuses on the other islands. So the UH system has 10 physical campuses. Correct. And that covers four of the major islands at a nine. Correct. And we're on Maui, Kauai, the big island of Oahu. Correct.  Correct. And they also have extension campuses, one on Moloka'i and they also have one on Lanai. And there's two physical campuses of Hawaii Community College on the big island, right? There's Kailua Kona and there's one down in Hilo. Yes, the one in Hilo and then the Palamanui campus over in Kona. I have not visited yet, but I've seen it on Google Maps and it looks very pretty. Yeah. Is it nice? It's, I haven't been there yet. Small. Very small. And especially with the military population, there is a very small contingency of the Hawaii Army Guard over there. So that's, well, that's the Oahuakalua training facility that's right near there. Not necessarily. It's in the middle of the island. Yeah, the Oahuakalua is in the middle, but Palamanui's on one side and Hilo's on the other side. Kind of by the airport, I thought. So if you're looking at a map, Palamanui is very close to Kailua Kona airport, right? Correct. So for the people in cheap seats, if you're going to go out there and look at Google Maps, go and look at the island of Hawaii, the big island, and the top left corner, you'll see the Kailua Kona airport. And then right near there is the Palamanui campus for Hawaii Community College. And they do not have cybersecurity yet, although I've been pestering them and poking them. Yes, you should. But the one down at Hilo does. Yes. So we cover cybersecurity and healthcare. And healthcare, we had a particular mission in healthcare now. Yes, we did. It was to get healthcare workers. Yes. They wanted community health workers, and they also wanted school health aides, which was a great opportunity. I think the marketing could have been a little bit better towards that, towards, say, family members of active duty component folks, because they can get in as a school health aide. And there was a very big shortage for, they had school nurses. However, there wasn't, it was a very lack of certification. So this enabled them to go through specific training. And for the onset of the program, it was free. Yeah, you bring up a really neat point. So it's not only the veterans that get support, but now there's veteran spouses get a tremendous amount of support. Exactly. They've actually beefed up their website that the military has to support these spouses. So if the, like you or I get out of the military, we don't want to take advantage of our GI bill, we can sponsor our family. Correct. Hand that down to our wife or a child. Exactly. Wife and child. Now with the forever GI bill now, they can have, it doesn't expire anymore. So that's a good thing. Especially when we talk about veterans, sometimes I don't want to dis, I don't want to put away the active duty components. And there's the guard, there's the reserve. Okay. And then there's us guys, retirees. I'm kind of like not the norm. Most folks go in the military, they'll do one tour, they'll do two tours, and then they get out. That's me, right? You know, no benefits, no base access. Exactly. Just the GI bill. But you still, and the ironic part of that is, is we go into the military to do a job. And then we get out. It's not necessarily exactly what we want to do when we get out.  When I got out, I was a tanker at first, which is an armor crewman, one much call for being a tanker when I got out. You'd be a big bus driver, maybe? Pretty much a trolley, you know. And the military, I think they've changed, I've been retired 11 years. When you were in, you had to take classes that kind of mirrored what your job was in the army, for me, for the army. So being in recruiting, it was more into the business management or any type of administration. Well, you lucked out, because that's a good transition to civilian life. That is. But most of us didn't. Correct. I had to do law enforcement. When I got out, of course, I was straight into the LAPD, which was not for me. Really? Yeah, no, no, I could not take the job. I just, I couldn't, when I saw what I was going to have to be doing, and this was the early 90s, when they, when they were filming the movie Colors. Oh, nice. So, you know, you could walk down Hollywood Boulevard and find nine millimeter shells. And I thought, you know, I just don't want to do this. It's not me. I think I'll go back to college. Almost like a contractor with that. Well, we'll hire you on for six months. Let's see if you make it through. Right. And if you don't, we'll bury you. Right, free of charge. So it's hard when you walk out that gate. Right now, we have the transitioning vet programs. Right. So about six months before, it's supposed to be six months before you get a little bit more free time to take these classes on developing your resume. Right. Scouting colleges. What else do they do in the six months? Depending on if you want to be, if you want to start your own business, they have entrepreneur classes as well. Yeah. And they just get you ready. And it's 18 to six months out, no sooner than 18 months, no later than six months. And it's a requirement now. And with the op tempo, I know, well, but with the op tempo going down now, the operations tempo, they're not deploying out as much as they used to. The soldiers are kind of easing into it now. So it's not like, okay, we're going to, we're going to get rid of you or you're going to process you out of the military, go to this class, go ahead, you're done. I hit the gate. So they're not just checking numbers anymore. They're actually doing a good job. And they are doing a wonderful job at the transition points for everybody. It's just do the military folks take advantage of it.   Good. Who do they contact? Me, if they can't, you know, but my name is out there. It's on the websites and all contact. And you put them in all the educational centers. Your name is all all the educational centers around the bases here in the islands. But in other states, where would if I was getting out at say, Lackland, Texas, where would I go? Is there a permanent station on base on every base that has this resource? No, there's not. Basically, how it would work is if you decide on a school that you want to go to, check it out, look at how to apply. There should be, and I can't speak for all universities out there, but a site for veterans or military University of Anchorage at Alaska has a wonderful website for veterans. I mean, it has everything and it connects with a lot of links to the VA programs, healthcare, student veterans of America, clubs and chapters and also, yeah, they can get a lot of information that way. I provide them that information as well, but mine is more like the hands on. I want to take them. Let's talk about that a little bit more right after the break. Okay. We got to take a break. Pay some bills. We'll come right back until then, Stacey. Aloha. I'm Marsha Joyner, inviting you to come visit with us on cannabis chronicles, a 10,000-year odyssey where we explore and examine the plant that the news has given us and stay with us as we explore all of the facets of this planet on Wednesdays at noon. Please join us. Aloha. Hello, everyone. I'm DeSoto Brown, the co-host of Human Humane Architecture, which is seen on Think Tech Hawaii every other Tuesday at 4 p.m. And with the show's host, Martin Despeng, we discuss architecture here in the Hawaiian Islands and how it not only affects the way we live, but other aspects of our life, not only here in Hawaii, but internationally as well. So join us for Human Humane Architecture every other Tuesday at 4 p.m. on Think Tech Hawaii. Welcome back to the Cyber Underground. We're taking care of our vets today and it's not just about cybersecurity, about education and transitioning out of the military, hanging up your uniform, and coming into the civilian life. And most of our veterans go back home. We want you to stay. A tremendous amount of experience, your motivation, and your skill set really benefit the islands. So don't go away. Join us as part of our family. With us here today, Robert Bullin. Hey, Dave. Hey, good to be back. Welcome back, man. All right. We're talking about, if I'm in the military, I'm on the tail end of my tour, I'm thinking about hanging up the uniform. Military career is not for me, but I did my service. I want to transition out.  I got to do this. Where do I start? What's my first stop in this journey? Well, here on the islands, you can, if you want to go to a four-year, do you want to go to a two-year? What if I don't know? If you don't know, then I suggest you do your homework and do some research and see what is your passion? What do you want to do? And if you're not sure, then go to school, use your GI bill, and take a liberal arts class. And then maybe somewhere in there, you'll figure out what your true joy and passion is. That's a great tip. When I first got back, when I got out, that's exactly what I did. I got myself a job. I think I delivered pizza. And it was a pretty good hourly, and I could take part-time college. And I just experimented.  I just tried it all, man. You're on the John Volusian progress. Yes, I was. And I had a great time, and I met a lot of great people, and I realized that the community colleges were where the professors really took a vested interest in your journey. It wasn't just about, hey, I'm teaching physics. Come here, learn, go out. It was, is this the right thing for you? Should you be a math major, a music major, a marketing major? What should you do? What's your passion? Like you said, they give you personality tests.  And it's okay to take your time.  That's horrible. You've wasted your money, wasted your time, and now you're in a career that you can make good money, but you're miserable. Exactly. And what's an unspoken resource is the camaraderie that you miss from the military. And why I say that's a resource that the community colleges, or even at the four-year, is you're just out of the military. You're not alone. There's other veterans on that campus. And veterans tend to hang with veterans, and they're great personal mentors or peer mentors that they'll come out there, help you. Oh, what about this class? What about that class? This is the teacher you might want to see. This is the one you want to stay away from. That's great advice. So seek out other veterans. Exactly. One of the worst things I experienced when I first walked out the gate was that terrible sense of loneliness. You know, I just left the friends I'd been around for for years on the other side of that fence, and I'm the only guy walking away at that time. Where do I go? All my other friends from high school are gone. My college buddies are off to the universities. I'm going back to my hometown or wherever, and I'm pretty much alone. So that's a great tip. Go to your veterans resource center on campus. Correct. And the University of Hawaii system has done a great job on that. Most all campuses have a veteran resource center, and that's just a place where the veterans can come. They have computers in there for them to use. They have lending libraries where you haven't got your stipend for the books. Just go see if they have the book there that you need. Sign it out and you can use the book. Another great tip. So the GI bill is not always a 100% no-fail system. There have to be backups in place, and the veterans outreach centers on campus can be the ones. This lending library is a great one. If your money from your GI bill isn't in yet, you're forced to use the bookstore with the GI bill. If the bookstore doesn't have the book, your veterans outreach center can probably help you obtain the book or at least a copy of the first couple of chapters. Exactly. It gets you into the class, so you don't have to drop.  Well, where is that knowledge documented? It's on your joint service transcripts. We call them JSTs. Okay, so don't minimize what you've done in the military. You might have been a tanker, an infantryman, or a cargo handler. However, your joint service transcript shows what you did. You are not given college credit. You might have earned college credit based on what you've done. And the counselors at all the community colleges and in the UH system are good at that. They do the prior learning assessment. They do a prior learning assessment, and there's several ways of doing that. One is through CLEP tests, the Dante's test systems. We have credit by examination for the different campuses or the classes. But another one is portfolio, where you amass writings on what you did in the military, and they will assess it through the professors. But the one I like is your joint service transcript. Well, usually we go through that and we take all the trainings you went through, and we see if the learning outcomes of those exercises you did in the military matched the learning outcomes from specific courses that we offer. And if you amass enough student learning outcomes and it matches a set that covers an entire course, you get those three credits or four credits for that class. That could reduce the amount of time you have to spend in college, reduce the amount of credits that you have to pay for with the GI bill, and maybe let you take your GI bill all the way into the master's. Exactly. And when military folks use their JSTs and get credit, they're more likely to continue on with their degree. And like you say, go into the master's program, but it's also a way for them to save their money because it's not an open source of money. There is an end to the money. You get a finite amount of money. There is a finite amount. So how do you maximize the money with the community colleges and stuff? Yeah, it's cheaper than the four years. So they can go that, go that round if they don't have to pay for as many classes, that's fine, and it saves their money on the back end. So I recommend for all of our veterans or the transitioning veterans or even the ones that are in active duty now that think that they're not going to go forward or even if they think they are, I recommend taking advantage of things like the Community College of the Air Force or just Community College is off base because some of the MOSs of the Military Occupational Specialty will be our basic rate of eight-hour a day job and you can go to night school, pick up some credits before you get out. Well, one of the good initiatives that the University of Hawaii Community College is starting is now they are moving towards in the fall an online AA degree. Yeah, I saw that. It's a great initiative. The beauty of it is it's going to be online and they're doing it in five-week increments. So they're moving towards helping out the active duty folks with their operations tempo where they don't have time to take a 16-week course online nor do they have time to sit in class for 16 weeks and it's during the day. I think the audience is panicking. So audience, please be aware that these five-week courses are not an entire 12-unit semester. You take one course at a time. Yes. Just be calm. Breathe. Then find your center. Focus. One course, five weeks, then you move to the next course. Correct. It's kind of neat because in this format it actually replicates the military training model.  Exactly. And that's how the military people are trained. So it's an easier model to adopt. And as you're in the military, it's easier to consume that information because you're used to that learning model. And it's good for the active duty folks, like you say, but also if the veterans, the ones that have gotten out, if you want to do that, fine. But if you're not sure about going to school, it's been a while, you might want to just take the actual regular class and 16 weeks and don't overload. One advice I give to my veterans is, okay, I know you want to start and you want to do this, you want to get done. But if you haven't been to school in four to eight years because you've been in the military, don't all of a sudden load yourself up with six or seven classes. It's not going to ease yourself into it. Now, to be full-time, you need four classes at least. You have to have 12 credits, 12 credit hours, and a semester system to be considered full-time for full benefits with the post-911 GI. So here's another mistake a lot of people make. And I see this in the IT field, right? The counselors at the community college will say, you know, you haven't gone to school for a long time.  So they take, you know, a year and a half of nothing but general ed, and then they come into the IT group, for example, and they take nothing but IT courses. The failure rate is extreme when you take all of one topic. But there's multiple things. Like you said, there's so many channels, like just cybersecurity. You took a database course. You took a programming course. You took a networking course. I took a hacking course. I took them all at the same time. I'm going to go crazy. Exactly. So you throw in an English course. Throw in, you know, I don't know, a basket weaving. Whatever. You lighten it up, take some general ed, and some of your topics. And a lot of things that people don't realize this, when you go into college, as you know, there is a linear path for some courses that you must follow. Some courses you can't take until you've taken the previous course. That's a prerequisite, right? And especially in things like engineering, you must follow that course. And if you don't take the right couple of courses in the beginning, when you get to the end, you've got to come back and take those, and you could spend six years getting a bachelor's degree. You don't want to do that. It's a waste of time. Right. And I would like to say the counselors are getting a lot better at that, especially when it's not a you need to take this. It's what are you looking for? What do you want to do and try different things? When I went to school, it wasn't with the idea of getting a Hawaiian studies degree. It was, I want to take the classes I couldn't take when I was active duty. So I wanted the astronomy. You know, I just wanted to take astronomy. I thought that would be very interesting. I wanted to take oceanography. Astronomy wasn't one of the best courses I ever took. I loved it. I did. To this day, I know what a parsec is. On rye? On rye with Swiss cheese? That's right. I love that sandwich. So another recommendation, if you have to give to us with our last couple of minutes of the show, walk us through what I should do as a veteran who's already completed my educational goals. I'm in a career and I want to get back. I want to help my brothers and sisters transitioning out of the military to come into civilian life. What do I go? I would say what you should do is contact the Veterans Resource Centers on the community colleges or it could be one college pick one, a home campus like Leeward. And Leanne Egan does a wonderful job as a veteran counselor because she also does coordination with veterans and she's had veteran fairs where she'll have veteran owned businesses or veterans that are working for different companies if they want to come in. It's kind of like a career fair job fair. So you know that you make that connection with an actual veteran like, hey, I'm hiring, what are you looking at? That's a good idea. Veterans for veterans. Veterans for veterans. And it's almost, you feel more comfortable talking to someone that's experienced what you did. No matter, I mean, we kid each other with the branches that we were in, but it's a brother and sister. That transition is very similar for many of us. Coming out of whatever situation we're in the military into civilian life, we all have to transition and another veteran can relate to us spiritually better than anybody else in civilian world. Thanks for being with us. Is there anything you want to go out with the last couple of seconds? Last couple of seconds is if anybody's looking at going to school in the natural, please go to the website, uhcc.hawaii.edu and or contact me on my email that's rbullen at hawaii.edu. I'm more than willing to help you out. Just give me an email. All right, so when we put this on YouTube, I'll take your contact information if you don't mind and I'll put it on that episode. So when people watch this episode, they can see your contact info. Excellent. How's that? Does that work for you? That'll work. Thanks for being with me, brother. Thank you so much, brother. All right, everybody. Thanks for joining us on this special episode to help our veterans here on the cyber underground. We'll see you next week. Until then, stay safe.


Hello everybody, E here. Welcome back to Top 5 Friday. Today we are talking about my top 5 favorite female characters. I will be doing the male characters after this. I do want to preface this with I was going to do the top 5 worst lines ever written today, but as I was going through my notes, I couldn't pick just 5. So I'm going to spend a considerable amount of time actually going through all the lines because I have a whole notebook filled with atrocious lines and I also have a little private note over on Goodreads of my books that I have private shelf. All of the books that include the worst lines ever written and there are a lot of them. I'm talking over a hundred. So we'll get to it. It's just going to take me a little longer to research it. So right off the bat, the very first one is an honorable mention and that is Elizabeth Salinger from The Girl with the Dragon Tattoo or the Millennium Series written by Steg Larsen. The reason why this is an honorable mention is because I've only read the first book and she is the only part of the book I enjoyed. Once she finally, once the book focused on her, I started enjoying myself more. People have said that the rest of the series she's in it more and she's more the focus. So I will maybe get into it. I'm not sure, but the other books are longer than this one and this one really dragged for me, but I loved the character. The only reason she's not on the actual list itself is because I don't know how the rest of her story art goes. Alright, next up is a character whose name I am going to absolutely butcher from 1Q84 by Heruki Midekami and that is the character of Aomami. I'm not sure. It's spelled A-O-M-A-M-E. She is terrific. I enjoyed everything about reading about her. In fact, the other person in the book after her, I forget the guy's name, and not that he is forgettable. His name is forgettable. It's Tango, but she really stole the show in this one and that's odd for Heruki Midekami to have such a strong female character. At least, that's been my experience with Japanese literature. I have not read many female authors, Japanese authors. Natsuo Kurino comes to mind, and there's another one. I can't remember her name. There's another author, but even in the books written by Japanese women, their characters are not the strong point, which is unfortunate. But, yeah, M-M-M, you know how I do. I can't pronounce these names, so we're just going to go ahead and move on. Next up, I'm going to switch out these because the more I think about it, the more I want those in my top three, is Marianne Engel from The Gargoyle. If you have not read this book, I highly recommend you go out and pick up a copy. It's by Andrew Davidson. I don't think he has any other books. I think this is a debut novel. I could be wrong about all of that, but the character that stands out the most is Marianne Engel, the woman who starts such an odd relationship with the main character after his car accident. The car accident and the aftermath is the whole reason to read this book, and Marianne Engel steals the show. She is a fantastically drawn female character, and she reminds me so much of my wife. When I was injured back in 2005, and I hurt my back, it was right after my daughter had been born, and I couldn't even hold my daughter for fear that, you know, I'd either drop her because I was too weak or that I would fall or even sitting down. I had problems sitting upright for any period of time, and just the added weight of the child made it very difficult, but some of the woman's actions in this one, the lengths that she goes through reminds me of my wife. My wife stuck by me through all of that, all of it, and there was quite a bit of stuff that I don't even want to talk about on camera, but she stood by me through all the stuff that I could not do for myself and helped me overcome that, and I will be forever grateful, and this character reminded me of her, so I'm a little biased as far as that's concerned, but the book is terrific. Moving on, we have Beck, Guinevere Beck from Caroline Kepnes U. This portrayal of a stalker and his prey, I guess, or victim is fascinating, and one of the things that makes it fascinating is the character of Beck, and it's going to be, this may be a little controversial, but the way she deals with the stalking, the way that she comes to fall for this guy, and yes, this minor spoilers for this book, they form a relationship, the way she reacts to finding out that he's a stalker, everything about her in this book, I hate it. I know that sounds strange to have a favorite character, but I love reading about this book because of Beck. Joe's great also, but it's the fact that somehow Kepnes managed to make a stalker, an atrocious human being, into a likable character, and then make a victim into an unlikable character. That just blew my mind, and the ending of the book I thought was perfect. It's the best part of the book in my opinion, and I don't want to spoil anything, but yes, so number three, definitely Guinevere Beck from you. Next up we have, this is kind of a tie, because I honestly couldn't pick, but I guess I'm going to take the step, and I'm going to go ahead and say that this is number two, I'm going to stick with it, stick to my guns, Dolores Claiborne of the titular Dolores Claiborne. I read this book for the first time when I was 13, I told the story in several of my Stephen King videos on the subject, I stole the book out of the mailbox, because my mother was part of Stephen King Book Club, she wouldn't let me read Stephen King, I read the book over the course of two days, I'm hiding it anytime I wasn't reading it. Luckily my parents pretty much left me alone, so I was able to, you know, read for huge lengths of time, but reading about this woman, even the subsequent rereads that I've done is so much fun. I love her tone of voice, I love the way she reacts, I love how she doesn't take any shit, I love the end of the book, the comeuppance for the characters, I love the way she handles everything, and the best part of the book is, you know, she gets away with one murder that she did do, but then she gets, you know, in trouble for a murder that she didn't do, I think that was epic also, but Dolores Claiborne, anytime I think about my favorite female characters, this name pops up, so that one as well as Victoria McQueen. This is, NOS 482 is my second favorite novel of all time, only behind it, and one of the main reasons for that is because of Vic. I had so much fun reading about this woman, her trials and tribulations, her as a kid going across the bridge on her bike to becoming the pretty crappy adult that she becomes to finally in the end getting some retribution for it all. Watching her story arc from childhood to adulthood was great, I loved every minute of it, she stole the show. In fact, she for me is the best part of the book. Some people like the gas, the gas mask man, some people like Manx, but for me it is Vic. There is not a dull moment in the book, there's so much originality, I do not agree with people who say that the book is just a rip-off of his father stuff. Yes, this is comes the time where he starts, he started to add in dad stuff, there's mention of mid-world, mention of Pennywise, that kind of thing, but dad started doing it also in Dr. Sleep and so on, Mr. Mercedes talking about Judas Coin and then talking about Manx, I think in Dr. Sleep also, but Anywho, Victoria McQueen is amazing, she is my favorite female character of all time. Now if we want to talk movies and all that stuff, I have a completely different list for that one, so if you guys want to see my top five favorite female, either my favorite actresses or my favorite female characters in movies, let me know down there in the comments below and of course, leave your own top five, top 10, whatever favorite female characters in novels or short stories down there in the doobly-doo, but until next time, I have an E, you have an U, this has been another top five Friday, I'll talk to you guys later, buh-bye!


The Ediacaran period, 635 to 539 million years ago, saw the emergence and diversification of complex metazoans, which were likely linked to ocean redox changes. However, the exact mechanisms behind these changes remain unclear. New research suggests that photiczone euxinia, PZE, or the presence of sulfuric acid in the sunlit layer of the ocean, had been responsible for the redox evolution in the Ediacaran ocean. This process was triggered by increased availability of sulfates and nutrients from a transiently oxygenated ocean, but it could have also had negative effects such as promoting anoxygenic photosynthesis and limiting the habitable space for eukaryotic organisms. As a result, this may have contributed to the limited expansion of macroscopic oxygen-demanding animals and the rise of oxygen levels in the atmosphere. This article was authored by Wang Xing and Wenju, Swapen Kei Sofu, and others. We are article.tv, links in the description below.


All right guys, we're gonna get started now. So we have a Red Hat panel with some Juniper folks here. So it's gonna be more of a conversational presentation, but before we get started, remember, come here and fill up, you fill out your raffle tickets to win the Amazon Echo after, and then we'll do the raffle. And then another note later tonight, we have the open control user group meeting at Fenway Park, followed by a dinner event there. So I'll let you guys go ahead and introduce yourselves. Great, thanks. Yes, so just before we get started, if anyone has questions, this is kind of an open conversation. So if anyone has anything that they wanna do, just please come and use one of the two mics that are on the side here. So, oh, so yeah, just a quick overview of what we'll talk about today. So, what do we mean by when we say upstream and downstream, that's gonna be a pretty major component. So a show of hands, who knows what upstream and downstream is if I use that terminology. Cool, so we got about half the room. So yeah, so we'll define upstream and downstream because it'll make a lot of sense for the rest of the presentation. Why working upstream is important and what the advantages of that is. Why collaborating with other companies makes sense. So the whole presentation is about how Red Hat and Juniper have been collaborating in an upstream ecosystem. The benefits for everyone. So how Red Hat and Juniper in the community and everyone gets a benefit out of that work. We'll briefly look at how the partnerships work. And then, like I mentioned, it's basically an open discussion and we can just kind of take it as we go. So yeah, so who's talking? My name's Dave Neary. I work for Red Hat and the open source and standards team focused on SDN and NFE community strategy. I'm Life Madsen. I work on the NFE PE team at Red Hat and I'm the team lead for DevOps and CI. Yeah, my name's Michael Henkel. I'm working for Juniper Contrail and right now I'm driving the control integration into Treblow. And my name is Gil Barros. I work for Red Hat and the OpenStack BU. I'm a partner product manager specifically with working with Michael. So what's upstream and downstream? You can take over. Oh, thank you. So the reason we use upstream and downstream is kind of the water cycle metaphor. Code, you can think of as starting a developer's brain, it becomes code which gets committed to a community repository. That community then releases that code as a project and that project is used as the basis for product offerings that eventually get delivered to customers. So you can think of it as a kind of a flow from developer brain to customer data center. And that's, so when we talk about the upstream community that's the place where the code review happens where it's the open source community where the code is written and developed, downstream community is where it's consumed. So where it ends up, we create products and provide solutions to customers. That's basically it. There are a couple of other metaphors that I like but this one is the most well-known. Cool. So just before we get into kind of the nitty gritty and the why, let's kind of look at a positive feedback loop and generally how this upstream and downstream dichotomy works and how that results in products. So you can think of this line at the top, it's the upstream and it's the flow. It's where you have your commits going and it's just like kind of a continuous timeline. There's these changes from the community and they're being merged and so it just kind of keeps going indefinitely. But as a product person, it's hard to maintain to build products around that and provide the appropriate support for your customers. So what we want to do in a downstream model is to periodically snapshot and effectively version that and so we can kind of stabilize that functionality. We know what's in there. We have a little bit more control over what's going in and stuff like that. So in our example here, we have version one. It's effectively a snapshot. It's a commit that we take and we start with that. So during the downstream development, we may have some additional testing that we have specifically for our partners or for our customers and things like that and an issue may be identified. So during this time cycle, we have an issue identified. So what we ideally want to be doing is instead of fixing it downstream and maintaining that out of branch and having to have all the lifecycle around that change, what we want to do is work with the community and land the fixes upstream. So we work with the community. We make sure that the fixes aren't providing other regressions and other problems. So we have a wider swath of people looking at our changes. That's kind of the advantage of having open source in general. So we work with the community and we land that fix in the upstream code first. And so now at this point, we can cherry pick that specific change back into our downstream. So we have a change, but that change is not different than what is landing upstream. So that change comes into our downstream and we've now resolved our issue. And we can do that several times. So we can keep pulling these changes down to stabilize our downstream product. And then what we can do is, you know, at some point in the future, when we need to do a next version, we can create a, we can do the same thing. We can create another snapshot. The nice thing when you do it this way is that all those changes have landed upstream. All those fixes are there. I no longer, once I resnap shot from my next version, all those changes are there. I don't have to worry about pulling them in. I don't need to rebase. I don't need to worry about merge conflicts. They're just, they're already there. They're already dealt with and away we go. So the positive feedback loop basically results in, you know, Red Hat and other companies work with, you know, this is what we call an upstream first model. So that's effectively what I just showed. You know, all the work is done with the community upstream and any new functionality lands first in that upstream community before you pull it into the downstream. Bugs are found in downstream testing, you know, again, push all that up so that I don't have that kind of overhead of maintaining it going forward. No forking of the code, you know, from, you know, kind of that negative connotation of forking rather than just the GitHub terminology and allows, you know, for companies to stabilize the code and provide that functionality and support to their customers. And then you do that periodic snapshot of new releases. Yeah, microphone. So one of the key things is when do we create the downstream for, right? What's the milestone alignment? Like for example, OpenStack has set in milestones, right? For the releases. What is the right time to basically take your downstream for, right? And start cherry picking fixes, feature freezes or whatever be the milestones towards your own. Oh, we get into that a little bit later, but typically companies would take off a release, right? No, sometimes you might, for example, our Red Hat OpenStack platform, we try and have more of an agile development of the product, so we will have, we will start downstream testing, product testing actually earlier even than a feature freeze in the OpenStack cycle so that we can get a product out. We have confidence in the product because we're testing it along the way. Yeah, absolutely. I think that's part of how we're doing it. We're contributing early, right? I mean, our engineers are working upstream, but also we start working with our branch, if you will, for our productized version of OpenStack early and going through our QE process, and that way we may find bugs sooner than after we create a product, right? After we release. So that means that a lot of those bugs that you're like, what, the dynamic that life identified where you're finding issues and you fix them upstream, that means that you're getting those fixes right into the release that you're going to be shipping to customers, right? So you're getting them in their area lower cost. But why do we do it? What's the importance of working upstream? Why do we bother? It seems like a lot of work. So let's look at four different ways that companies typically consume OpenSource. And looking at the four, you can kind of think of these as I'm going along as discovering the four freedoms of free software incrementally, right? So you start by using the code, branch and modify. So you take a snapshot of upstream code and you just modify it to fit your needs. Updating regularly is realizing that you have the opportunity to distribute, to get, participate in the development, right? So you're taking what comes from upstream. Contributing back, you realize that, oh, I have the opportunity not just to take, but also to give. And then working upstream is the idea that you can get value from collaborating. So these are the four kind of, as I said, they're kind of the four freedoms of OpenSource, the freedom to use, investigate how it works, to make modifications and to redistribute those modifications. So looking at the first one, the main issue that you have when you try and branch something and modify, and this is probably the most frequent way that people take code is I'm developing an in-house application. This OpenSource code over here fits my needs to 99%. I'm going to just add the feature or fix the patch or do the integration with some other piece of code that I have, and then that's going to live on for the lifetime of that project or whatever. The issue that you have with this, and a few people in the telecommunications industry have actually run into this, is that if you take, for example, an OpenStack kilo, and you make a lot of changes to that OpenStack kilo, you kind of end up getting stuck, right? You may not be able to go to a newer version of OpenStack because your features, you need them, they're tied to kilo, and the cost of porting those features forward is prohibitive. So you end up with these, you're missing all of the benefits of this being an OpenSource project, and one commentator a few years ago called that Unleveraged Potential. It's all of the code, all of the security fixes, all of the bug fixes that go into the upstream you're missing out. So you end up with a double cost. You've got the cost of the work that you do on that OpenSource project and the opportunity cost of the upstream work that you're missing out on. So typically, step two, you say, well, this is free code, right? I can look at how it works, I can copy that code back into my branch. So you do a regular re-merge, right? You take all of the code that's gone in between kilo and L, L, help me out here. Liberty, Liberty, the Canadian one. I win. All the code that's gone in between kilo and Liberty, and you take your changes and you put them on that. And that's a fine approach, except it's not a one-off cost. You end up having to do that very regularly. And typically, as you go along, you add more and more code to your copy. So you end up diverging, and that cost of merge becomes bigger and bigger and bigger. You end up with this crippling debt of maintenance over time. And so eventually companies say, well, you know, a lot of these codes are on differentiated heavy lifting. We've done the work, there were features that were important to us, but maybe others in the community can benefit. And so you get to this, we'd better contribute back to the community. And that's the frame that people use, is kind of using it as a gift culture, right? This is a gift that we're giving to the community. We're donating code. And again, this is a great thing to do. It's a positive step, but it doesn't come free, right? The idea of giving code to the community so that the community will take care of the maintenance and you don't have to worry about it anymore is a flawed idea, because not only have you done the work to do the feature, you've had the cost of merging and keeping your code up to date, but you also have community overhead. You also have things that the community expects you to do that you wouldn't otherwise have to do. There are many examples of this. One of them is if you're developing a product, you're typically to address your point earlier, you're typically going to want something that you think is fairly stable. So a standard branching mechanism in a community is you've got a stable release branch, which has incremental versions there which are only fixing bugs. And then you have a development branch where all new development work is done. And as a vendor, you probably want to create your product off the stable release. You don't want to ship experimental code to customers. You don't want to have kind of the increased QE cost of testing a moving target. And so you take the stable release. However, the community wants code on the tip of the trunk. They want code that's committed and rebased on master because they've already forgotten about the stable release. Well, not quite, right? But if you were going back to two releases ago, you probably don't have anybody paying any attention to that. So if you're proposing a patch to like Liberty now, it's going to rot in Garrett for months before anybody gets around to it. And it's probably going to be rejected. And even if you put it into that, now you've effectively put the burden on the community to forward port the patch up to master because then. Well, you haven't because they're going to ignore it. They're going to ignore it. But even if they accepted it and it just doesn't really work that way. You'll get a minus you pretty quickly. So you end up with this situation, which is kind of what we call upstream first. You do your development against the master. You do your development against the upstream project. You merge code from the master branch onto your development branch very regularly so that you always have a clean merge from your development work onto the master. And then you get that code onto the master as soon as you can. That reduces all of your merge costs. It reduces your maintenance cost over time. But then you still have the problem of, well, what do I ship to my customer? So you take once that code is merged into the mainline, you then have an opportunity to backport that code and put it on your vendor production branch, which is the stable product that you're delivering to customers. This is what we do upstream. This is we will backport security fixes. We will backport bug fixes to a stable branch. They're not only put on the stable branch. They're primarily put on the master and then backport it back. And so this is the best way to work with open source, but it's not without problems. And I think Michael here can speak to some of those problems. The first of which is that when you're building a product, particularly if you're integrating multiple open source projects, it's very, very difficult to synchronize your product planning and the upstream open source project planning. Release dates can be unpredictable. Releases slip all the time. You can have a release of one project which is coming out in March, another project coming out in June. And you have to decide, well, do I release my product with the newer version of project one and the old version of project two, and so on. So you're kind of building a castle on quicksand. It's a moving target. You've got to figure out how to aggregate and reduce the risk of that aggregation. Also, it's a ton of work to get code upstream because the community is going to take time to review your patches. And they might not be aligned with your goals at all. So there's a risk that they may just reject your feature proposal out of hand. But Michael, maybe you can talk about some of the. I mean, one thing also to mention perhaps is that if you build a commercial product out of an open source project, then you will have at some point paying customers. Those customers, they request features. Yes. And they don't care too much on what's going on with the community, what is upstream first. And so you have to somehow realign between customer feature requests and all the community processes. And that's sometimes a little bit hard to achieve. Right. We spend some effort trying to educate customers to the benefits of upstream first. But a lot of times, they still have deadlines. They still have production releases. They still have things that need to make them money that they can't wait for. They want to see the code. They want to see it in the product. And then in addition to that, those customers might run on an earlier release, because it's labeled as LTS or Longlife or whatsoever. And they're not going to change to the latest release. So you have to backport that kind of features and patches to that LTS release, because there's no choice. Yeah, absolutely. The LTS releases add an additional burden, because we have an interest in making a release have a long term, a long life for customers to be able to stay on a stable branch for a long time.  So there's some negotiation to be had. Yeah, and it's not unusual to have up to 12 months from code being written that implements a feature to actually having that code released, to having that release integrated into another project that depends on it, to having that code delivered to customers. So yeah, there are difficulties, definitely, with the upstream first approach. And we were saying before the session started that one of the things that you have to do a lot is actually just say no to backporting features. And so we have people who that's basically their default response and that's their job is to ensure that we don't take on an undue maintenance burden unless there is a really good business case for it. And that brings us to the really good business case and building partnerships. Could I ask a question before we go on to that? So what you said, Dave, makes a lot of sense. Question is, is there ever a time when, say, there's a bug that gets found and we have a fix? And based on what you said, we put it up in the upstream first and then bring it down to the product. Question is, how long does that usually take? And has there ever been a time when it takes too long and we might make an exception because the customer needs the bug fix immediately. You put it downstream first and then do it upstream. Has that ever happened? Well, Gil is the product manager in the room. I'm going to defer to him on that. Yes, you want more details, I assume. Yes, so I think security fixes are actually a good example there, right? I mean, the security fixes are very important and we want to ensure that the shipping stable product does not have vulnerabilities that would affect customers. The community will find issues, will find problems, they'll do the work upstream, but a lot of times because of our investments in these communities, the people working on these fixes upstream are either Red Hat employees or Juniper employees or basically the people who are working on the productized version. So a lot of times the development is concurrent where we know how to fix this. We've had the communications about how to fix this so we're working both sides. And as you said, yes, sometimes, assuming we don't break any embargo dates, the releases will happen on the same day, almost immediately, right? I mentioned embargoes, a lot of times the security community will give ourselves or themselves a certain amount of time to fix a bug or to fix a security fix before it becomes public. Say Apache has discovered a vulnerability and it's not a publicly noticed vulnerability. So instead of immediately going out and publishing it, they will communicate with the key players and say, we just found this, we need to find a fix, let's say give ourselves two days to fix this and then we will announce the vulnerability and the fix at the same time. That makes it safer for customers because there is a smaller breadth of people who know about a vulnerability and it makes it so that we release the fix at the same time. But for bug fixes, yes, sometimes we will be working upstream but a customer needs it yesterday because there's a system that's down and it's costing them money. So we'll give them an early release, a hot fix or something like that so that they fix their problem. With the understanding that fixes your problem this way may not be the fix that actually lands upstream and we will work with you to make sure that the upstream landed fix, if it is different for some reason, also solves your problem and you can migrate to that easily. Yeah, because you're not always gonna have the engineers who are working upstream in those particular projects where you submit the issues. They don't have any timelines or constraints in order to get something merged in. So it can take some time and especially if you're not fully engaged in that particular community and they maybe don't know you quite as well, maybe it becomes slightly less prioritized or maybe they really wanna spend a lot more time reviewing the code and making sure that the changes really match the style of the project and so you can have some of that delay and back and forth. So yeah, I mean it makes sense you're gonna end up with a hot fix potentially pulled into your downstream in order to get the problem so that your customer isn't basically increasing support and stuff like that. But what you'll have to do is make sure you're tracking that change in your downstream so that when the upstream change gets merged, if it is different, that you effectively roll back that hot fix and pull the actual change down so you're not diverging. Okay, building partnerships. So a big part of making this community work is that there are multiple groups of people working on different projects, different products and we want to make sure that we're providing a solution that's interesting to customers, right? I mean, if what we're providing is not interesting to customers, well, it's a nice academic achievement but it's not going to put food on anybody's table. So when we worked with Juniper in particular, we had specific targets. In this case it was we wanted to do an integration of Juniper Contrail with OpenStack and it was more of a stretch goal than we've in the past done with a lot of other SDN integrations where we wanted to fully deploy Contrail, not just the compute and not just the client but also the backplane. So there was a lot of sort of understanding what the partner requirements, understanding what customer requirements were working with Juniper to figure out how we were going to fit these in our roadmaps, right? I mean, we were talking about multiple different roadmaps and it's an interesting challenge and I think a big part of it is learning how we each work, right? I mean, OpenStack Red Hat has been doing the upstream first model for over a decade, two decades, a very long time and that's not necessarily whatever it does. So it was an interesting, I think learning experience for both of us. It was a learning curve for Juniper quite a lot because, I mean, Contrail is an open source product. However, it doesn't have the same level of community as OpenStack, for example. And although development is a little bit different to what's happening in OpenStack, so when we started, and it's totally separate from OpenStack, so there are only very few integration points like the Neutron plug-in, like an Overvift driver, so that's where we paid attention to what's going on upstream. But now all of a sudden that we started to integrate with Triblo, we had a much more touch point, so we had to look into how is the community working, how is upstream working, and that's where Gil provided a lot of help introducing us into that new way of working and it was quite an experience, a very pleasant experience.  People are looking through the source code and see, okay, there's new SDN product, it's part of upstream, we can deploy it. And they're contributing to it also, right?  Absolutely. And these people who don't work for Juniper are making recommendations and suggestions on how to implement something differently, an improvement. It's some kind of reputation, I mean, if you can say, okay, my integration is upstream, that means it's not a point solution, it's something which has been validated, which has been reviewed by a bunch of people, and yeah, it's finally good for the product itself. It is. An interesting anecdote from when we were starting working together, Michael was one of our main touch points on the engineering side, on the solution side, and I had managed to convince Michael that he doesn't need a person to call in engineering at Red Hat, right? That he should just go to IRC, just like go to pound triple O, and someone will answer your question, right? You don't need a phone number, right? And Michael got it, right? He was submitting code, he was asking questions, he was, and we're on a call, we have joint engineering calls, and one of his peers from a different department was hammering me on like, no, like I need an engineering contact at Red Hat because I have questions, and I was about to say, you really need to go to IRC, right, like you really need to go to pound triple O, and before I got the word out, Michael said it, and like I felt vindicated, you know, it's like, we've finally gotten here. Yeah, I mean if you want to play upstream, you have to use the process which are in place, and I mean as I said, it was really the first project for Juniper where we contributed that much to upstream, we really started to work upstream, and it's a learning curve. I mean you need to introduce people to the thought that there is a community of people you can go to, and you don't have individual contacts. I mean, if things go wrong and you need really urgent help, you still have the opportunity to get in touch with a single person, and they are all very kind, they offer remote desktop sessions to go with you through the code, and I mean that's not being ruled out, but the general rule is go to IRC, you have 20 people looking to your question, and eventually one will answer it. You really want to get engaged and work with those people and kind of show that you have some knowledge and you're actually trying, and the way you phrase your questions as opposed to like demanding something from them, they really don't need to give you anything, so you really got to think of them as, they're people, they're not your vendor, they're not someone you're giving money to where you can demand anything, you really got to work with them like friends and really try to engage and show that you're trying. A lot of the time, just showing that you're trying, even if you don't get it, people are so much more willing to work with you just that you just want to get in there, you want to learn and you're taking feedback positively and you're giving back positively, that makes a huge difference. And at the end of the day, I mean, you can really tell that you did a decent job if you're invited for reviews for totally different projects. I mean, this is really giving you some very positive feedback when people are adding you to the reviewer list. Yeah. Absolutely. So we've covered most of this in the conversation, but so what we get out of this is everybody has a benefit, right? Like the community gets new code, gets new functionality that's interesting and beneficial to them. Juniper gets additional people to look at their code and provide recommendations and possible bug fixes and or whatever. And we both get a solution, or actually all of us get a solution that provides additional functionality or for our customers. So as we said in the beginning, it's an open forum. We're interested in hearing your questions and your thoughts, be it on this or on any of our random. Okay, I have a good question. So partnership is a good thing. I mean, I've been part of this and it's been really great working with you guys. How do you, when there are multiple parties in one, like we have a customer, we have partners and all this, how do you make sure the customer sees a smooth experience that people are working together? They're not hacking, but actually integrating and stuff like that. Any suggestions on what's the right way to jointly develop so that the customer gets a smooth experience. The good question is community is messy, right? Community is humans, human relationships are messy. And sometimes people have arguments in public forums in the community and that's a healthy process. But I think part of it is educating customers about what you're seeing now is not unusual in the industry, it's just you're seeing it and normally you wouldn't. So I think that that's part of creating relationships and that's one of the things that Gil didn't say is one of the things that we bring to the table is we're in a lot of these communities and we can help you form those relationships. So maybe make a smoother experience, have less conflict coming into it because you understand the culture of these communities before you come in there and that helps. But I think part of it is also understanding that your customer is also going to be there, maybe not the sea level people that you're selling to, but the engineers that are also deploying and testing and using the code. And so it also gives us an opportunity and this is something we didn't talk about to have beyond the vendor relationship, it gives you an opportunity to have a much deeper, more technical relationship with the actual people who are going to be operating your code and production. Absolutely. I mean we see with some of our advanced customers that they're also contributing in these communities. So when they see us working together on something, they may make a recommendation based on, you know like these are use cases that we have so we'd like to see it work like this. But I know what you mean, there can be a lot of strife when customers see what seems like a hack but really is a workshop. Yeah, I had to slip that in, inside the inside jack. But I think communication is a big part of making that work is ensuring that customers are aware of sort of the different timelines for the functionality that they're looking for if they're looking for future functionality in a solution that we're working on together. Making sure that they're aware of the timelines, making sure that they're aware of the different features that we're working on and the progress of that. But some customers don't care about any of that, right? Some customers just want a product at the end of the thing, at the end of the day. And they don't want to hear about how the community is doing and how they're helping us. And in that case, we're happy to work with them in the call it the old communication model or we tell them when we expect a release to happen and that it's progressing great and here's the beta. Since we have more time, I might as well ask another question. So with Red Hat, obviously all of our products open source, upstream first. Almost all. That's the target, right? Yeah. Now with Juniper, obviously open con trail is open source. Is there any difference in terms of how we at Red Hat do things versus open con trail in terms of maybe this is really a question more for Michael. Dave and the team kind of went through kind of the way the Red Hat does the upstream first. Is the Juniper open con trail similar? Well, I mean the biggest difference, I think we can point out when we compare open stack with open con trail, for example, because open stack is mainly community driven. Open con trail also has a community which is much smaller because it's a much more point solution, it's an SDN controller. Whereas open stack is much bigger. It's many projects. Many people looking into it. So right now the development of open con trail is mainly influenced by Juniper and by customer requests. Whereas everything which goes into upstream and open stack comes from people who are contributing code to it. And that's, I think, the biggest difference right now and yeah. I mean one of the things that myself and Red Hat as a partner person, I'm interested in helping our partners sort of enhance their communities and have more contributions from the outside and not just internal contributions. And contributions from Red Hat, right? I mean, if you go look at the open con trail, con trail Git repos, you'll see quite a few Red Hat people who have started to contribute code in there. I mean, in this case it's usually code related to integration. It's triple L code. It's triple L code. It's not going into the core product yet. But the idea is we all benefit, as we mentioned, from forming a community around these products. Just to add to that couple of quick things, Ali. So from how we are doing upstreaming versus downstreaming, it's pretty much standard practice like what Red Hat, what they talked about with the branching process, et cetera. And that's one. And the second thing is Randy talked today at the keynote about what our approach to open source and community development is and how we are going forward, going to make it a much more broader community and how we are going to facilitate that. So that's where we are actually looking to partners like Red Hat who have a lot of experience to help us get to that goal of making it a much more diverse and broader community. And I would point out that that's the norm for most projects that come from a company is that the company remains for quite some time at the dominant developer. Open source developer communities grow from user communities either because when you get enough users, all their vendors start to pay attention or because your users are also technical, become technical contributors to solve problems that they have themselves. So it's not by any means unusual. Yeah, I would say like I mean really at the end of the day larger projects typically exist and are being built for the purposes of being productized. So I mean that's not an uncommon thing. I mean even like that's what Red Hat does, that's what Juniper does, that's what lots of people do. So I mean when you have a project that was started by a particular company, it being the primary contributor like you said is really not an uncommon or even necessarily a bad thing. It is what it is. Maybe a bit naive question from me.  Does OpenContrail will OpenContrail make its way into Red Hat portfolio? I know you use it in Red Hat OpenStack already. Anything beyond it all. Could you give the details maybe on how this partnership will? Well I mean right now what you can do as you said OpenContrail is a pure open source product so you can go to OpenContrail.org or to the GitHub repositories. You can pull the code, you can package your RPMs, then you can use the triple O heat templates. We contributed and started deployment on let's say centers for example. But right now you have to do the packaging effort. You have to compile it. So right now Juniper does not provide RPMs and that's what DP was talking about just before we're Randy this morning in the keynote at the open source day announced that we are gonna realign a little bit on how we are handling contribution of let's say packets to make it easier to consume OpenContrail for users. And I will point out represent OPNFE. So there's Stuart Mackey is a Juniper engineer who is working in OPNFE to enable the integration of OpenContrail with multiple installers. And that would be where I would expect to see any integration work happen. I don't believe it's on the road map for the Apex project at this point for the Frady's release but that is not locked and loaded yet. So that will be where I would expect to see it happen. I mean that's again something we're pretty much customer driven. So customer request was to be well integrated with OSP10 and REL and that's what we have done now. So that integration has been done and now there is some time to contribute something back and then make it easier for the community to consume everything we have done for REL. I think that takes us to the end of our, unless you have a very quick question. Yeah, I was just gonna really just make a good comment until you ask about the partnership. So today we obviously have joined customers together. That wasn't really mentioned, you know, like Orange in the UK and a few customers together. So they get into Juniper Contrail and then they get the Red Hat OpenStack from Red Hat and the two products all work together. So that's the partnership we have right now outside of the open source conversation that you've heard here. So yeah, if we didn't answer your question or you didn't wanna ask it publicly, I'm sure we'll be around and that's it. So thank you very much. Thank you. Thank you.