Hey Pete, switching my background briefly. Good morning. Greetings. Greetings. How are you, class? I'm doing okay. It has been insanely busy. That is great. We can't hear you, Pete. You're locally muted. How's retirement treating you, class? Yeah, I mean, my wife is asking me that question frequently. What in the world are you doing? Honey, weren't you tired? Yeah. But we have just under 600 registrations now for our webinar next week. I met Mr. Panu yesterday. I think we're going to have a really great discussion. Some really amazing folks on the panel. It's amazing to see how that whole conversation about agriculture and regeneration and food and so on has really captured the imagination of more people. It's nice. You didn't send out an email. Maybe that will… Did I forget to send this one? I found it sent one a couple days ago, but I think that was imaginary or two a different meeting. Yeah, no, I don't think you did. Why don't I send one right now? And we can also note on the channel. So I haven't looked at the news yet this morning, but it's like you're in some adventure movie that changes the story that advances the story like crazy. Pardon? It's like living inside of a movie when you turn on the news every morning. Yeah, it's crazy. Have you seen the video clips of people filling plastic bags with gas? No. And gas, how you mean? No, this was the cloning of pipeline debacle and gas hoarding. Although it's interesting that the same sentence would work for both. It's true. Okay, sent a note and then I think I'll also put it on the callous channel. Hey, John, you are muted. Good morning. Good morning. How's life? Not dull. Lots of, you know, both directions, all directions. Stuff hitting. April got her first, her second vaccine yesterday and had a terrible night of it, like really wrecked her. And I'm getting mine at noon today after these calls. Getting Moderna? I'm on Pfizer gang. Okay. The word is fewer reactions from Pfizer. April had Pfizer, just knocked her sideways.  She was literally, she basically couldn't move or eat or anything. She had a hard time drinking even and was throwing up for 30 hours straight and then she wasn't better for a week. That's really bad. Yeah. Well, that's the immune system waking up. That means it's going to be really tough when it sees, I mean, it's going to be really hard on anything that comes in. She was like, okay, so I'm going to have great antibodies for that. And so then she was watching some really smart doctor on YouTube and he's like, it doesn't actually matter. You don't get better immunity from more. She was like, I had a friend who fainted the day of the set or the day after her second Moderna. So I don't know. Pfizer didn't bother me. Quick question for Jerry and Pete. Do you guys, have you heard of either Jill, nephew or inquire, i-n-q-y-i-r-e? I have not. Doesn't that sound familiar? Jill, nephew? Yeah. All right. Yeah, I've come across to it as so long that used to happen around here. All right. Well, I'll bring it in for my... Hey, oh, nice to see you. Yeah. Laurel, I welcome to the call. Thanks so much. I'm happy to be here. Okay. Nice to see you. Let us start our check-in process. And I think before we do a normal check-in, Vincent has done a whole bunch of work on catalyst becoming trove. Should I just refer to it as trove period? Good. On trove, which is basically a directory that cuts it. It's not a directory just of OGM. It's a directory for multiple organizations, which is cool because we can sort of mingle in the crowd and discover other projects and other people. And we're... Thanks, Pete. We are chatting in Mattermost on the calls channel, which Pete has just put a link to. And I was hoping that Vincent, you might explain and do some screen sharing to take us into what's available. And then we'll go to our check-ins. Sure. Thanks, Jerry. Yeah, that sounds great. I'm going to screen share right now. So right now... Can everyone see my screen? Yes. Cool. So right now, the home for trove is on catalyst.network. But in probably about two weeks, it'll be switching to trove.org. And so trove is going to be the kind of new name moving forward for the platform. And so yeah, there's kind of two main user groups for trove. So one is people who want to find projects, find opportunities, learn, get connected with other people and resources to create impact. And then the other one is people who are like Jerry, like Charles and Lauren, who have communities and actively spend a lot of time managing communities online. And it's a tool for community leaders and organizers to help manage that process and to build collective intelligence easier and in a way that's also more collaborative within communities and also across networks of connected communities. So right now I'm logged in. So I'm going to go to the dashboard. And I'm just going to kind of show the main features. I'm not going to go into everything. But so once you create a profile, which at the end of the five minutes or so, I'll put a link for anyone to create an OGM trove account. But so once you sign in, you have a dashboard. This dashboard kind of is going to be changing and evolving a lot. But for now it has kind of like what are the best things to do. So right now adding an event to the shared calendar, which will not only add it to the community's year end, but you can also add it into what I'm calling networks, which are basically topics of common interest so that those events can be shared not only within the communities that you know about, but also in communities that you may not even have heard of, but are interested in similar topics like climate change or collective intelligence. And so this is the kind of master event directory where you can filter and search events. If you click add events, you can add an event here. You can add a KikoLab or Game B, Open Global Mind as the host for that community. And then you can also share it with other communities that you want to see the event. It'll show up in their calendars and with the kind of different networks. So like for example, anyone in design, you or regenerative economy might be interested in the event. You can also change the privacy permissions to be restricted to just the communities that you're in or private. But this one is going to be public. And then once you create that event, it shows up in the kind of public comments of all the events, which you can filter and search through by type, by the category. So we have all of our flotilla Friday calls here if anyone wants to define the link there. And then each one of these events has basically their own event page. And that event page has an ability, you can add it to your calendar really easily. And you're also able to hide the link if you want it to only be available during the event. So to prevent zoom bombing. And if you created the event, then you can go back and edit it later. Then I guess going to the kind of community hubs, which is the real kind of meat of Trove. So this is where anyone who creates a project or an event and shares it with OGM, it'll show up in OGM's kind of community hub. And the different directories that each community has are modular. And so each community can kind of choose which widgets they want to have as part of their directory system. So right now the ones that I turned on for OGM is link directory.  The one that I think people here probably would be most excited about is a member directory. And so this is like a filterable list of all the members. You can also search by skills or you can you can see where people are on the map. And once things start opening back up and people are traveling, this would be a great way to connect with other OGMers across the world. And then the project directory has a list of all the projects that are either within a community. So for example, the like flotilla project or Trove are also projects that are maybe not directly under OGM, but super related. And so it'll show both the related projects and also the ones that are directly hosted by that community. And yeah, so goalie bot project by Bentley. I can only view the project, but a project like Catalyst or Systems Innovators that I'm an admin, I'm able to edit.  And so this is only showing the events that are specific here to this community. So I have the OGM checking calls, the flotilla Friday calls. So if anyone wants to know where the join link is, you can go to the event page or you can click the join link. And actually, this is how I got into the OGM call today. I found it on the calendar and I clicked the link. Then the last two directories are are still totally in progress, but I just wanted to show them because I think they are useful now in their current form. So this one is a call repository, which most of the calls in here were curated by Stefan. And then we work together to basically convert it into an easy way for people to filter and sort through all of the past OGM calls and have a quick way to go to the recording. There's a list of all the people who attended. And so if you wanted to find a meeting that you were in, you can filter where the attendee contains Vincent. And it'll show you all the events that that you were a part of. And then you can click to go right to the YouTube video. In the future, these events will be hopefully curated collaboratively by the community and we're able to add some topics and tags to make it even easier to find the kind of past events and hopefully be able to kind of add to a broader repository of the kind of knowledge that's a part of each community. And that work has been very much inspired by Lauren and Charles' knowledge repository at Keekalab. So I have to give them credit. The resources tab is also currently pretty new. So it's still experimenting with the best way to filter and sort through resources. But this is basically a way to take like all of the links that get posted in the different calls and be able to be able to curate them in a way where it makes it really easy to find them when you're looking for them. So for example, when people are like, hey, what are, you know, if somebody new comes into OGM, like we had a discussion about all the different mind mapping tools and knowledge argument tools. So what if we can, you know, put those into a directory where someone new comes in and says, hey, where are the knowledge tools? We can say, oh, we're going to point you to the resource directory and, you know, filter by knowledge mapping tools and it'll show you all those tools and maybe even have a link to the event that we talked about it. And so the idea is really making it easier for communities to create this sort of linked data in a way that also can be shared not only within a community but across multiple connected communities. So going to like the Keekalab repository, there are similar projects and members and also resources that will basically be shared across the different groups. Awesome. Thank you. Thanks Vincent. And Pete, do you want to talk a little bit maybe about sort of connections to other infrastructure things we're doing or sort of where that's pointing your heading? And then maybe also talk about the newly replaced OGM website? Sure. Kevin and Jerry and I are having a bit of an interesting discussion over in the MatterMos channel, by the way. And I think that Kevin's made the point kind of that he's seen a number of these things kind of come and go over the past 20 years and we were starting to talk about how Trove might be different. So I think it's different. I think Trove will be different than the other ones. Vincent isn't a billionaire yet. Vincent actually really cares about the community and he's of the community. So I think the other directories a lot of them are kind of bolt-ons to kind of an ecosystem. Vincent is really internal to the ecosystem and he's building something for his community and the communities around him and the communities around those. So I think that's one thing that's different. Another thing is that Vincent's got a lot of capacity to build stuff. So he's going to keep evolving Trove and continuing and we'll see it grow. Another thing, Vincent and I sponsor a little sovereign called Flotilla with Tools for Connectors and there's a few other people, Charles and a few other folks come join us every week for Flotilla Friday and everyone is welcome. So already in Flotilla for months, all of this year we've been talking about how something like Trove would hook up to something like a bunch of massive wikis, kind of both the social connections between those and then just the data connections too. How can we get Trove pulling stuff, aggregating stuff out of massive wikis and how can massive pole stuff out of Trove and keep them aligned. So Vincent's got a big interest in not only centralizing the data, which is one thing that the other directories that have failed have thought about doing, but also decentralizing the data. How can we do aggregation of lots of data sources? How can we do syndication of data out to other places where it lives? So one of the things Kevin and Jerry and I talked about in the channel just now is in the olden days you would put your, you'd go, okay, I've got this cool profile of myself or a cool event. I'm going to post it into the immediate, immediate.net. And then it ends up feeling like it's in somebody else's purview. I think Vincent tries pretty hard to make it feel like you own your data and he's hosting it for you rather than he's collected your data and it's no longer yours. And that's kind of the same thing with massive. We're trying to do that with massive where you have the data right here and it, and there's ways it kind of spreads into the rest of the networks, the rest of the federation. Kind of related kind of separately, by the way, for a long time there's a home page for Open Global Mind, openglobalmind.com has been there for a long time. Jerry set it up in the early, early, early days of OGM, back when dinosaurs roamed the earth and stuff like that. Jerry also hasn't had the bandwidth to kind of like put himself into website design mode and go, okay, I'm going to make the website better and better and stuff. So it's been missing things like links to the forum and links to the chat server and things like that. We wanted to fix that and we had the opportunity based on massive wiki evolving and maturing a little bit. We have turned, we have taken a massive wiki and a tool that I built called massive wiki builder that turns massive wikis into websites.  It is a website but underneath the hood it's also a massive wiki. So we're still getting to the point where we can, I see a query-less look on Jerry's face and I hope I was just going to do a little explaining of what you just said briefly in case somebody hadn't followed that but I'll wait till you're free to pass. So the upside of it is along with OGM also has a wiki which is running on massive wiki and I know I'm using a bunch of circular terms here and I apologize and we'll make that all better participatorily. We'll all figure that out together. Anyway there's a wiki for OGM where we keep meeting notes and encyclopedia kinds of entries and stuff like that. Simply there's a something called, I call it main site which drives the website for open global mind. The good news is all of those things are pure production kinds of things. They're all things that we can log in to log in or authenticate in one way or another and edit either on a web page or on our computer. That's the good news. The bad news is massive wiki is still kind of trying to make itself easier to use especially for folks that don't know a lot about the technology into the hood. Wendy Elford and I have actually done a lot of work. We're doing great guns. Wendy's awesome and we're doing a lot of work on making the whole conceptual framework and the ways that you kind of dip into things and the ways that you would have friction. We're looking really hard at all those kind of friction things. So there's effort underway to make all of that better. If you're intrigued, there's a YouTube video of me doing a hot seat in Keekalab a week and a half ago. I talk about getting into obsidian. Obsidian is a personal knowledge management tool that it turns out also if you use it with a bunch of other people it turns into the massive wiki kind of stuff that we're talking about. You don't have to use obsidian but obsidian is a good gateway onto it and we're going to continue to make that easier. Wendy and Bill Anderson and I will continue to make that easier for people. Whenever you want to get involved, hit me up. I'll put some Calendly links in the chat channel. I'm always happy to run people. I'm starting with a couple different people. Wendy is kind of a geek and she knows a lot about information management and a lot about text tools. So I could start with her at kind of a pretty deep level. Parmjit and I are starting at a pretty basic level. What would you do with obsidian if you had obsidian? Parmjit is working with Winfinity to kind of figure out their framework and maybe express it as a wiki. But anyway, love to chat. Back to you, Jerry. Love that. And I just want to explain a little bit about what Pete said with Pete's forbearance and with Pete's edits afterward for what I get wrong and then go back to questions about all of the above about everything Vincent presented and what Pete presented just as a conversation about infrastructure about where we are. But it just occurred to me in trying to think about what I wanted to clarify a little bit that it seems Pete, I'm thinking about a massive as a meta-modern knowledge management tool. And I got there by thinking it's not postmodern because postmodernism is kind of to me, in my amateur point of view, about deconstructing sort of elements. And that's a piece of what's happening here is that a normal wiki is an engine that shows you pages that you can click on and edit, build links between pages and it maintains the space. And the trip that Pete is on, the experiment that Pete is on with with Massive is he's separating the data from the tool so that the data lives on GitHub as a repository full of markdown files. And markdown is this very simplified form of file. Markup is hypertext is a hypertext markup language. Markdown is a simpler version of how do you have headings and tags and page breaks and stuff like that. But by separating out the data and so then what happens is most wiki software is really good at version control. You can go back and make changes and revert and do that kind of thing on Wikipedia. That task is now sort of offloaded to the very sophisticated version control of GitHub, which is also kind of like a geek paradise. In order to make changes now, you have to understand at this point still how GitHub works and use a tool that can talk to GitHub and put files back and take them out. Then also, most wikis have a presentation layer that functions like a wiki when you're not busy editing a page that lets you click around and do stuff. Here, a massive wiki kind of without sort of a front end, massive wiki looks like a collection of markdown pages on GitHub so that when you look at it with an editor that understands markdown, you can start to navigate it sort of like a wiki. But that's unusual.  And so massive builder, and I may have added one distinction to many there because there isn't that much difference now in how we do this between a wiki and a website. But the cool thing is, and this is just the example I give because I love how this goes, is basically a single markdown file could appear in the wiki as a wiki page. Let's say it's Pete's profile. It could also appear in a PowerPoint presentation and there's a whole bunch of PowerPoint like apps that use markdown. So basically you point to a series of markdown pages or you put internal breaks in one markdown file, you hit play and it looks like PowerPoint. It takes over your screen, gives you left and right arrows. But that same data file could exist simultaneously in the wiki, in the PowerPoint and on the website and in a brain-like thing. If that page also had a little bit of metadata that said this is what's above it, you know, this is what it's, this is its larger category. These are some of its children and this is what it's related to. And then it could show up in a mind map of some sort. So we're kind of deconstructing and then rebuilding what these knowledge management elements might be like. And for me, that feels like metamodernism, which I only know a little bit about, but I really like it. And it is a little bit Hansi Freinach, I don't know. And I don't know enough, Hansi Freinach is a pseudonym. But there is a whole bunch of, like if you go watch a few videos about metamodernism, you'd be like, oh, this is a nice synthetic view of kind of where society is and where we might be heading. So it's a thesis I can't explain yet, but I find really appealing. Anyway, Pete, if you want to correct what I said, then we can just go back to general discussion. That's close enough, I think. Thanks, Jerry.  Help us figure this out and how to explain it to more folks. We need to help. And it is actually a really exciting thing. And kind of to maybe come back to Vincent, there's this cool thing happening in our federation, our collective of collectives, which is a bunch of social stuff is going on. There's all kinds of cool stuff happening on matter most and communities forming and bubbling along and bumping into each other and mixing and matching. We're also doing that kind of with the tech infrastructure. So massive in some ways is at one end of simplicity and stuff. And then massive is actually kind of really simple and super flexible, so flexible that it can be hard to use in some ways. Trove is at kind of another end of the spectrum. It's super powerful, super easy to use, very friendly and things like that. The cool thing is even our technologies as we're starting to work on these, which is different from 20 years ago, the technologies themselves and the technologies working on it are stitching together the ways to do decentralization and federation and things like that. So in kind of some not fractal size or something like that, but even fractal capacities and fractal domains, there's social domains where we're doing fractal stuff in organizations. There's technological domains and we're even doing the same kinds of things between society and technology. It's very cool. Vincent put a link in the chat, in the matter most chat earlier about where you can register and fill out a profile for yourself on Trove, which I urge you all to do. That'd be awesome and then anybody have questions about any part of this or suggestions? Yeah, I filled out my profile on Trove and I don't know how to tell it that I want to save what I've done. It doesn't seem to be a save here or anything. Mostly everything is auto binding, so when you type in the search box, it automatically saves. I actually saw your project. Looks great. Okay, thank you. Michael, do you want to jump in and talk about factor and how this works? You just posted a really nice thing in the chat and it seems like what Pete described as our movements toward each other to federate data and features and capacities is an important aspect of what we're up to. You're hunting for your zoom. Just to get back, I was typing in the matter most. So I almost feel like I should just kind of read what I said there. It's really good. I have sort of a bittersweet feeling right now because I've been here a while, didn't really know about what you guys were doing in Clotilla. The reason I'm here is because I've got a platform that while it's a for-profit company, we're looking, as I've said before, at ways to make it a cooperative. It's just really frustrating to be not finding ways to cooperate with people. I think Trove looks awesome and I want to do everything I can to support it up to and including giving, making all the work that we've done on Factor available to it and open to it. I'm not out to become a billionaire here. I'm out to do this and I've got a bunch of people on the platform who want it. I'm just trying to figure out how do we break the model? I see Pete's got something to say and I'm sure Vincent does too. Yeah, stack after Pete. Thanks, Michael. Factor is also another wonderful tool. I'm going to build on something in the Wiki. There's something called OGM community patterns or something like that and there's a pattern for, and this is not quite an answer to Michael's question yet, but I'm going to build on it. There's a pattern for, say, emergent events since making or another good pattern that's started around Klaus is food and regenerative agriculture and soil health and carbon. Those people start talking about stuff and then it's like, we should all start talking together. Let's make a Mattermost channel or whatever, a telegram channel, whatever. Then let's keep talking and then maybe at some point it's like, let's start doing stuff together. Let's start hosting calls together. Let's get more people involved and then at some point you say, this is a thing. This is massive Wiki. Massive Wiki kind of turned out that way. Maths and math making is not quite there yet. There's a bunch of people milling around and it's a proto community. It hasn't gelled and it hasn't said, let's have meetings every week and figure out what we're going to do together. Maybe the next step for math and math making is making that step. Then there's another pattern which is similar to that but instead of people forming together, I think there's the same pattern fractally but organizations coming together. The flotilla thing is really kind of a meta organization. It's parts of Pete, like CSC and Massive, coming together with Vincent and talking about how those tool tools might work. Flotilla happens to be, I think, Michael, the right venue for you to come together with Vincent and me. I think you've been to at least a couple of flotilla calls. You're muted, Michael. I think I saw one. I looked at it afterwards but I don't think I've ever been to that. Flotilla is kind of explicitly, so there's sovereigns forming out of individuals. But then flotilla is this new kind of sovereign, which is a meta sovereign. It's literally, Vincent's got interests in Trove and Pete's got interest in CSC and Massive and we want those to play together. There's actually a lot of tension between Vincent and I, too. We're very good natured and we have a lot of fun talking, but it's like Vincent is going along a very structured data path and Massive is like, structured data is kind of the worst thing that can happen to us. Then we have to come together in flotilla and then when we put on our flotilla hats, it turns out to be different. We're kind of different people and it's like, what would flotilla want from Massive and what does flotilla want from Trove and what does flotilla want from Factor? Flotilla is that kind of meta sovereign that we would love to have you participating in and pushing on Massive to be better, to work better with Factor and vice versa and pushing on Trove to work better with Factor and vice versa. I hope that helps and welcome. Sure. Yeah. No, I appreciate that. I mean, I also want to point out to you guys and I think I've mentioned this before that, you know, meeting every two weeks is the collaborative technology alliance and, you know, people from Factor and True.net and Hilo, I don't know if you know Hilo, Hilo is very, very much in the realm and more overlapping away with Trove than it has with Factor. But I mean, there are all these people who are trying to figure this out and I would just love to see us put our heads together more. And I don't know, maybe flotilla folks can come into the CTA group too. Kalia Young, who I mean, he's the one other piece of overlap in those meetings. He's working on stuff. And so they're a bunch of us and it's really tough to figure out. We had a big long meeting on profile standards and schemas and, you know, we should just all be talking to each other and trying to figure out how we can work. So we'll talk about it. Yeah, actually, Michael, I'm curious to know when those meetings are. I think that would be great. I sent in the Mattermost link, the link to the flotilla call for tomorrow if you could make it. And also in the Mattermost, we have a channel where we have a bot that posts the join link. But yeah. Sorry, go ahead. No, no, I was just going to say I'm totally there. I'll be there. Also, okay, cool. Yeah, I think just speaking personally, because there's like a specific vision I've had for like three, four years, I've been, yeah, like platforms like Hylo, I'm really interested in seeing how that have more of an overlap. I'm really interested in seeing how there can be that interoperability and like Federation of Data and maybe even like sign in with Hylo on Trove, right, like that, all that kind of stuff. I think for me now is starting now is kind of the right time because I didn't want to enter into those conversations with something that was so kind of related that it would kind of not let me be creative on the process. And so like I think now that there's something there that people can use, I'm much more open to those conversations. So it's not like, yeah, I guess there's, for a while actually hesitated to like learn about data structures, like going back like a year or two ago, because I wanted to see if there were innovations in data structures that needed to be created based off of a need and a use case. And if I just learned the traditional path, then I would have just kind of constrained myself. And so that's part of like, part of my creative process is like knowing that I don't know and knowing that I'm not going to know everything and do everything right. But in that process, I might do things that are very different that are useful not just for me, but for everyone collectively to have that new perspective. So a couple thoughts. One is, sorry for the tech talk, but a big piece of what OGM does is in fact infrastructural. And this tech conversation leads towards stuff we need to figure out about how organizations work together and collaborate in some new economic environment, which I think we're heading into and trying to be crash test dummies for. And so I think it's really important that we understand who is what the moving parts are, who represents the moving parts, what their intentions are, and then how they how they fit together. And I'm just I'm sort of inspired here by the writer's workshop format, which is, Dick Gabriel wrote a really nice book about how to do how to run a writer's workshop. And basically, the circle of writers give each other their latest documents for critique. And the workshop format is done in a way that the writer is not the victim of the critique, it's just the work.  But the intention of the conversation is how to make this written piece more of what it seems to want to be. And here I'm thinking about Jordan Sukud, who's been leading us a bit into into into these sort of new forms. And he's always trying to tip our chins up. So we're always looking at our highest best purpose. What is the next best thing we can do? So here I'm thinking, what is the next best thing that Trove can do that that that DSC can do that OGM can do that that factor can do that that we can help fulfill? Like, like, what is their secret sauce? What is their special perspective? While still collaborating in the background across each other, while making these things sort of work across each other. And then the last thought here is, and people like Kevin, who created a map of the social enterprise world called Ziggy back a couple of decades ago, was it? Yeah, just about a couple of decades. A map that didn't live that long that that was part of my curiosity, because I was a busy little brain user, going, Hey, how does my brain talk to this Ziggy thing? And Ziggy disappeared on us, you know, in the middle of all that. So we kind of need what machine to lab nicely sort of says, we don't hear enough from the graveyard. We idolize the winners, we have somebody, somebody conquers the world with Facebook or with Microsoft with whatever. And we turn them into idols, but when it turns out that often they were lucky or anti competitive. Instead of going back and figuring out what broke from all the people who tried to do the same thing and fail often with better solutions, because you very often, it's not thanks Pete, that is the that is the link to Dick's piece on Regist workshops, which is super handy. But but how do we learn from the graveyard so that we can avoid the mistakes, which is what Kevin started sort of provoking here on the chat.  In fact, I'm going to share a link in my brain to my online profiles. And if you go look at it, in fact, I'll screen share for a second. Just because I think there we go, let me see my online profiles. There are many you will see because I used to be a tech industry trends analyst. And I used to say my job is to waste my time so you don't have to. And so I had profiles on know it last FM leaders LinkedIn still alive. That's one of the few surviving ones. Cloud, brave new talent about dot me branch out. And as I say these things, Kevin is probably flinching a little bit, because Pete and Kevin and a few others who go deep into the tech business have probably heard a lot, you know, peer index, short mail, Quora still alive, etc. But I've created profiles on all these things, few of which were directories. But all of which required you to set up like who am I what am I what do I think I'm doing so it'd be really nice to get away from this world of way too many profiles, and not enough functionality and get into a place where this becomes actually our working medium for both. What am I doing next who do I know who do I care about, and what have I learned and how do I share it out. Maybe maybe a long, a longish rant, but any other thoughts on this topic and then we'll we'll shift into check in. Neil, please. Hi, everybody. Been a while since I've been around. Thanks for the tech talk. And I think that there is an overlap. And that's why I asked the question between your definition, Jerry of sort of assuming the metamodern element. I wasn't sure if you're just talking about a more complex way of integrating, you know, the technologies you're talking about, or whether it's actually metamodern in the context of what Hansi Franek talks about in the listening society. And so the critical difference here is that he's talking about the existential threats to humanity, and the need for a new operating model for humanity, above post modernism. The similarity is that you're talking about a platform cooperative approach, which is above the level of the current systems, which don't allow the integration across multiple mutually listening and mutually cognizant complex thinkers, which is what we're trying to bring together here. Where I'm concerned is that we don't end up with a platform that doesn't allow that level of thinking to come in, because the metamodern revolution required needs to address the existential challenges, not just the platform competition challenges. And so there's the head, heart and hands coming together stuff here. There's the inner development required. There's the cognitive complexity required. There's the depth required. There's also then the code and all the other things that come through in the metamodern texts about how we do this, which then tries to integrate and mutually respect the multiple different levels of complexity, cognitive capability that every other value meme actually has, and somehow integrate that into something that's of benefit to everybody. And I sense that's what's coming through in the platform development stuff here. But if it becomes just another competing, potentially failing island of sanity and a sea of destruction, then we're wasting all our time and energy. And forgive me, I've just come in very late, but that's my integration between the text and what I'm hearing here, but also my deep understanding of the existential challenges and how close we are to eco social collapse. Thanks. And I think you've done a lovely, lovely job, Neil, of synthesizing and putting new frames and new words around like why we're here and what I think OGM hopes to be about. So thank you for that. Yeah. It'd be nice to not build another raft that sinks, but rather to build a rafting system that helps us live together. A Bridge of Boats. A Bridge of Boats. I'm the age of the Graphical Conference. I bought the domain raftify.com because I figured the earth is three quarters of the earth's surface is water. We're going to have to learn to live on the water. And there's a couple entities trying to do that, one of which is like a seasteading, which is a Peter Thiel libertarian nightmare utopian community. Another one of which is called open ocean sailing, I think. The guy said, don't call me seasteading. That's Peter Thiel's thing. But he was trying to create open protocols for sharing hardware software in ways to live on the ocean. Like what works? How do you harvest energy from waves and sunlight in a way that can distill water and can feed your plants and can stabilize your raft and can whatever? Like how do we build an open source construction kit for that? I haven't heard from him or about him in more than a decade. Go ahead, Neil. Just one little touch base. Sorry, just a follow-up on the Bridge of Boats thing. One of the common problems of most value means, that is the behavioral patterns and the value systems that people hold, is that they assume that others have to be in their boat. And the Bridge of Boats is about recognizing there are multiple boats. Provider, we're going to align the boats. We can build a raft and potentially a flotilla and so some are more comfortable moving further, faster with greater complexity and speed. And others are more comfortable being very conservative and staying where they are and preserving status quo. How do we mutually respect that while bridging out to new worlds? And some boats have the same polarity and some boats have opposite polarities or bad metaphor maybe. But some boats are busy rejecting and competing with other boats, et cetera. Anybody else want to jump in on this part of the conversation? Otherwise, we'll go into check-in mode. And thank you for that. That's really generative and helpful. And I love hitting somebody who's read Hansi, because I need to do a little... The Meta-Modern thing, maybe a useful thing we could do is sort of synthesize distil some Meta-Modernism for our own uses and for everybody's uses. I think that'd be great. Neil, have you recorded anything about it or published anything on it from the team? No, but we're building it into the work that Anne and myself are doing. We've both read that. We also have some younger players in Australia, two of the most conscious young men that I know that pointed me to the work, and they're in their 20s. And so there's a yearning for something better than the existing models. And there's also a recognition of the need for the consciousness not to be putting the other models down, because everybody's at their own particular point on the journey. And so how do you hold the humility of the privileged capability, maturity, capacity that we actually have to hold that complexity and also bring a new narrative to change the way in which everybody operates, or we're all stuffed. And so it's the different, the challenging between the arrogance versus the humility and how do you hold your own complexity with humility and the humility and the complexity of all others? Thank you. And my present shorthand for this dilemma, and I'm not going to map it directly to what you said, but my own big question in the back of my head is, what is the next social stack and what is the next organizational stack? And I'm borrowing here from software stacks like the LAMP stack, Linux, Apache, MySQL, PHP. But I'm saying, hey, the social contract is broken. We're trying to figure out, is it capitalism with Chinese characteristics? Is that what's going to win? Is it Northern European social democracies? That question is sort of up for grabs and the social protests around the world are telling us that that's broken. And then everybody's fishing around going, should I become a multi-stakeholder cooperative? Should I become an L3C? I don't really want to be a C-Corp. How does that work? And what is the new corporate and how do we move value, not just within a corporation, a major multinational, but across an ecosystem of loosely collaborating entities like a flotilla perhaps? What does that look like? So my two stacks question is maps to a bit to what you're talking about, and I want to go way deeper into that. But then my realistic mind says that one of the things I learned from Carl Polanyi was that capitalism is like a cuckoo bird. It's a brood predator. It can't have other forms of living coexisting with capitalism. It needs everybody to be in the labor pool. It needs all the land to be available for purchase. So it has means of basically enclosing and eating everything. And how do you create the collaborative, interdependent weaving of systems that you described, Neil, when some of the players are like that? When some of the players are basically not out for any kind of collaboration like that, they will sort of eat anything that they touch. Cool. Vincent? Yeah, I think one thing that was part, like to your point, Jerry, of like, how do we exist when there are players that are just trying to profit? And I think the B-Corp model, I've heard some interesting critiques about the B-Corp model as, well, I've heard there's amazing things about the B-Corp model. And the critiques of the B-Corp model is that it doesn't go far enough because being a B-Corp is about doing more good. It's not about doing less bad. And so how do we both take away the kind of power from the bad players and then also be able to create more good? And I think the trend that I've been seeing, which seems to align most with that type of philosophy is the kind of idea of just decentralization as a trend. And so if you could buy up ExxonMobil and then decentralize it so it's cooperatively owned, my just kind of gut intuition is the more people that own something, the more likely that it's going to be steered in the right direction because there's much more alignment between the incentives of the individuals that have the ownership over it and the actual constituents, the stakeholders. And especially as we live in a globalized world where you can have a company that literally touches every country in the planet, like a platform like Facebook, like what if a platform like Facebook was de-centrally owned? Would it still have the same advertising model? Or would it be steered in a different direction? So I think just decentralization and figuring out some creative ways to, I mean, there's fighting against the evil, but then there's also making new models that make the kind of players that we don't want obsolete. And I think the kind of cooperative model is just the trend that I've been diving into. And I post it in the Mattermost. I'm going to be taking a course. So if anyone wants to take it along with me and then maybe do kind of like a book club where maybe we meet before, during, or after to talk about it, it's start co-op on Teachable. It's a lean co-op course. It was recommended in the Dent Forum on Clubhouse, which is a really incredible, one of the best clubs on Clubhouse. And they talk a lot about economic systems and just like broader economic issues. And there was two people from start co-op there that start co-op is an organization that helps cooperatives. I believe they have an accelerator program as well. So I just wanted to throw that out there. And Vincent put a link to that earlier in the chat, which is awesome. That sounds like a great idea. Klaus, go ahead. Yeah. I mean, I'm coming from the application perspective and there are all these wonderful tools coming in. But I mean, I have like zero bandwidth to even focus on, on developing tools. But I can see the benefit of applying these kinds of tools. So the challenge really is, you know, to bring a practitioner together with the toolmaker and, and find forms of applications. And it's just to show that there's no single guy doing anything much, right? You need a team of different skill sets in order to accomplish much of anything. Yeah, exactly. So Michael, I think you're like in the throes of this kind of decision making about factor and like choosing models and all that. I thought I'd pass it back to you, then just ask you to check in. And maybe we'll go Michael, Kevin, Julian. Yeah, I'll do my check in hopefully without much tech talk. But, you know, in the greater, in the greater sense of the idea of cooperative models and business models, I think is, is key in a lot of fields, and particularly this one, and decentralization. Vincent, in the Mattermost chat mentioned, you've been hearing about Nathan Schneider, who is a great, you know, he's, he's working out of the University of Colorado and is sort of one of the chief spokespeople for the cooperative movement. And, and, you know, I've talked to him. He's also a friend. Yeah, he's also a friend. Yeah, cool. Yeah, I mean, there, there really seems like there is a moment now between Zebra's Unite and, and, you know, Start.coop and there are other, Vincent, I can share other things with you and happy to share with other folks too. The cooperative movement and the exit to community movement are, are really gaining steam. And the, the conversations. It's like the, the business model question and the standards questions in any kind of network of decentralized things are the thorny issues. I'd be curious, you know, what one of the entities and I think I mentioned this last week, I'm sorry, I'm having so many conversations around this that I forget what I've said where but there's a, there's a, an entity called the digital standard org that is involves consumer reports. And I have to say that consumer reports as an institution, I think is a really nice you know, established, not, not too new agey. I mean, one of the things about I think all the, all the co-op movements going on is a lot of them do get a little bit woo-woo. And in it, the, the consumer reports involvement in this world, I think could be really beneficial to all of us and, and letting them have some input into, into what we're doing because they can mainstream stuff that and, and give credibility to stuff that would be hard for all of us as outsiders to, to generate.  Awesome. That's great. I'll be fully vaccinated at 1 p.m. today. Neil, do you want to do a quick check-in before you have to take off? And thank you for joining us today. Yeah, thanks for that, guys. I'm sorry, I came in late, haven't been around for a while and already, already set a fair bit. But I have to go for dinner shortly. I'm indulging after those that don't know. Good to see you all. Good to see that the work is continuing and very pleased to see that a couple of platforms are coming together here. And I'm, so I'm keen to stay involved, haven't been involved as closely because there's been an overlap between a meeting I was having with Fallon, who has regularly been an attendee here. But because our, our meetings have overlapped now for the last couple of months. Yeah. So I've asked him to shift that meeting so that I can drop in here more regularly. But obviously with the work that Fallon's doing, there's an interface there between the sort of software, hardware, platforms design, but also the ethical thinking element and where he's interested in the work that we're doing and I are doing here in Belgium around and now what, you know, now that we know these things about the existential challenges, the compounding systemic failures and so on. What are we going to do about it? And so the question is and now what, right? And so the inner development required to enable you to deeply contemplate, hold and accept what's happening and the reality, the external reality of what's actually happening and bridging that gap between the educational component and the inner development component required to hold that and then bringing that into the world. And so there's elements there that link back very much to the metamodern stuff we're talking about, to Keegan and multiple levels of consciousness, to recognizing where individuals are at in their journey, to the strange attractor element of putting a warning on the door and saying, don't come in if you're afraid of this stuff because we're going to be talking about it. And so now that you're here, don't say you didn't want to come and now how are we going to have these courageous conversations? And ultimately, all this will hopefully lead to a community of people that are better prepared internally for the battles they're facing externally, fighting multiple world views and multiple perspectives, but also hopefully some sort of mutually assistive community, which is where it parallels with the sort of stuff that OGM, that I can see OGM potentially doing. You know, how do we help coordinate a critical mass of increasingly conscious people with the cognitive capability to at least be holding the complexity of what's happening until new patterns conform? And how do we do that with the compassion and the mutual respect required for people who aren't yet capable in the same way we would with children that can't walk yet? You know, we don't assume they'll never will. We just assume they haven't learned yet. And so holding that space, but of course also then the deep existential challenges that come with that about how do we prepare ourselves individually? And with myself and my partner here in Belgium and our friend David, facilitator in Australia, how do we show up fully for others on this journey if we haven't been on this journey? And so we have a three hour conversation on zoom with our friend in Australia every week. And these go into very deep stuff around violence, levels of violence we might need to actually counteract systemic harms that are already so violently ignorant to them. New economies, new models forming and so on. And so how do we do that unless we have a group of people who have the capacity to hold that and to hold the complexity of the chaos below them in that process without being elitist because of the humility of recognizing this to works and produce themselves. So that's a very brief big picture nutshell of the complexity of what we're dealing with on the personal front. Loving spring here. It's a wetter spring here than last year. So I'm actually seeing things at a different sequence. The memories on Facebook come up and I say, oh, well, the things haven't flowered yet or they're already we already this far ahead, but much moisture. So hopefully get a better crop this year. And secondly, despite all this inner development work, still feeling very guilty about the lack of outer representation, the inability yet to put a website in front of you guys, that sort of stuff. And so is this dual imperatives of how do we do the work to better articulate it and every opportunity like this helps. And secondly, how do we then present that in a way that doesn't scare everybody away because we still need income, but at the same time doesn't bring everybody in because it's so bland that everybody thinks, oh, this is for me when it's actually a pretty privileged, almost elitist element of people that are privileged enough to have the time to do this sort of thinking on behalf of not because of their own personal profit on behalf of the collective. And so I still honor the wonderful work you guys are doing and how you're taking those systematic steps forward towards systemic challenges that we've got. So thanks very much for all being here. And yeah, thanks very much for giving me a chance to check in earlier in the piece, Jerry. I'll hang around as long as I can, but I'll probably get a clip around the ear very shortly for being late. So nice to see you all take care. Thank you so much. Yeah, I really appreciate that. And for a future conversation, I would love to know what technological modes of expression best suit you and your disposition and intentions? Like what kinds of tools have you liked? How does that work? But I think that's a fun, juicy thing to talk about down the road a little bit. Wonderful. A quick snapshot. We're in the process of upgrading our hardware. We may have to come and talk to you about how do we get the best quality software and support, but I know I've got a good support community here that can point me to all the new things coming and some things I haven't even put on the books yet. So thanks so much, guys, for being there and look forward to interacting with you as we go to the next stage. Excellent. Thank you. Thank you. Let's go, Kevin, Julie and Lorela. You're muted, Kevin. It's kind of a newbie error, but there you are. Yeah, there we go. Yeah, Neil, I'm sure I misunderstood you where you're trying to help the lower orders evolve up to your level, but that's sure what it sounded like. And I've never really liked being in that kind of group. I stumbled into some cults back in the 60s below Santa Barbara that seemed to have that goal. And I'm sure that's what you said, but it's probably not the way you meant it, of helping the lower orders evolve up to your level. So I have a, you know, it makes my skin crawl up backwards and, you know, look for my knives, but that's just, that's just me. I'm doing a community equity fund. We're looking to expand it to another community where they also have real estate and we've got opportunities that don't fund it. For newbies, we've been working on a fund and we raised our first million to do friends and family funding for entrepreneurs who don't have a rich uncle. And we're looking to expand it. We've come up with, it was really complicated. We finally, we came up with a simple model and it got easy. And we're looking at some of those things too. We're doing a thing in June back in Mississippi with some, you know, influential Mississippians, a state, a US Senator and a district, federal district judge. And we're going to elect a monument to Billy Joe McAllister right there at the Tallahatchie Bridge in Clarksdale. If you know the song I'm talking about, Ode to Billy Joe. And I'm writing a paper on what happened in colonial times when the Baptist preachers wanted to preach to the slaves owned by the Episcopalians and they had two conditions. One is you had to have Exodus being spiritual. So you couldn't be let my people go. And the second was that you couldn't talk about Jubilee and forgiveness of debts. You had to enshrine property and capital and that made the Baptists limit what they did. And so 150 years later, when I was in Jackson, we were building the largest habitat chapter in the country. The first Baptist church didn't know why they were building a house, except that they were three years behind the junior league. And so they had to, but they said our business is saving souls. But the other part of it will be looking at how the landed got bound by their own oppression. And that's kind of where some of the bargain where they had to get poor whites to side with them against blacks and lining them up pro wealth, even though they were poor. And so anyway, I'm going to be writing a paper with some history around that. But one of the neat things about these devil's bargains is they're actually written down, you know, there was an actual agreement, you know, you can't do that. And in the freedom summer in 1963, what's his name, who led the freedom summer, which was the voting registration at Goodman, Cheney, Schwerner, et cetera.  And so they had to, you know, reclaim the captive gospel that they'd had essentially. And I've talked to him about that. And so anyway, I think it's going to be kind of interesting that we're going to do there.  That's what I'm up to. Thanks, Kevin. The documentary The Black Church is excellent on a lot of this history.  I didn't know. The documentary is called The Black Church. It's a PDF documentary two, two hours. Oh, yeah. Yeah. The PBS documentary. Yeah. Yeah. It's excellent. I was surprised at how much I learned. I was like, wow, I thought I was informed, not that informed. Klaus? Yeah, to Kevin's earlier comments, I'm starting out with Neil framing his points in ways that just walk you the wrong way. That's actually a pretty common thing, you know, for me as well. Because when you, when you operate in your daily frame of mind, it's really a skill to step back and be thoughtful about how you communicate, not just on a factual level, but also on an EQ level. So I constantly fall into that hole in myself. I don't know how to get out of it or get better at it because it just seems to be ingrained. And when you're 71 years old, you know, it's not so easy to change your habits quickly. But it's a really important part, Kevin, that you rest there. And I think we need to just be super conscious of it. Yeah. Well, the chips in the vaccine are going to help, I think. So that'll be good. Yeah, totally. I feel like the remote control portion hasn't yet kicked in properly. Go ahead, Neil. I'm not sure if Klaus has finished yet, but just responding, if I may, to Kevin and to Klaus. Thank you for feeling the challenge. If we don't challenge, we're fucked. And this is the problem, the level of violence in the system already.  They don't get to where they get through peaceful demonstration. We're not going to change the paradigm through peaceful acceptance of every perspective. We're going to have to somewhere say, which of these perspectives matters most? That's actually the name on your platforms. And in how are we going to decide which perspective matters most, unless we are about honoring all life, not honoring one group or another group. And so the critical element here is we need to create a safe enough space, not a safe space, a safe enough space for these sorts of courageous conversations to occur. Otherwise, nothing will change and we're on a deadline. And the deadline has probably already been passed. So the question then becomes, how do we approach the abyss, literally the abyss with the equanimity, with the grace, with the dignity required as humans, fully developed humans if possible, and with actually the benefit of the whole in mind to keep doing no regret strategies, even though there may be no hope. And that is really hard. And if you don't challenge, nothing changes. So I don't back down from what I said. And I'm not taking a superior perspective and saying those of us who've had the privileged opportunity to get to this point in our development, where we can actually see this shit coming down the line. If we don't take a stance, then we are not fulfilling our humanity. Thank you. It brings us back to we need to operate from a position of trust, assuming good intentions and one another. And once we have reached that stage, then we can, we can say things that are not like not perfect and accept this humility that, hey, that didn't come across so well. Thank you all. We're not going to make it, we spent a lot of time on other things, so we're not going to make it through everybody for check-in, but let's, let's go to Julian Lorelai and Pete. Well, my comments are on a very different line. And actually, a lot of it follows up on what Neil said a little while ago about building bridges of information between people, because that's my goal is that I want everybody to be able to communicate. So after spending several straight weeks being spending all the day in Zoom meetings, I finally got to work done a few days ago. And I now have a really solid pathway from the brain to Neo4j. I ran into some issues in dealing with data elements, which in the IT world would call BLODs. And then the Free Jerry's Brain Call Monday got a whole bunch of good suggestions on how to handle that. The point of getting into Neo4j, first off, not that it's Neo4j specifically, but it's just that I'm used to working with it. But the eventual goal there is to build semantic knowledge networks so that we can trade knowledge and not just pieces of data. And as you know, that my interest is in doing that in 3D. But the point is to make knowledge something visceral, bring it home, going back to an old saying from Confucius, and people can look at stuff on the screen and they can hear talking heads talking at them. But when something is really driven home and they take it to heart, and it needs to be driven home in a subjective way, right? Because everybody perceives things differently. And so my goal is to be using technology to accomplish all these long-term when everybody has taken knowledge to heart, then they're going to be communicating on a whole different level. So the brain was a good start with that. And now from that, I can start moving in two ways. One is building up these knowledge networks using the more sophisticated semantic analysis tools. The other is in building interactive systems of managing the brain.  So it becomes a different embodiment of the brain. And so this is the next thing to work on after spending the rest of the day in Zooms. It's a nice break from Zooms, that's for sure. And I was also going to mention something on a totally different tack. Because in the past, I'd mentioned I used to be the chief scientist at LEGO. LEGO started earlier this year a podcast series on their different digital efforts. And the one about four weeks ago was on the division I was in. So I'll put a link to that. And it was actually a really nicely done analysis of SPU Darwin. That's what our division was called. So it's 70 minutes, but it's pretty well done. That sounds great. Thanks, Julian. Just checking, Julian, is a LEGO podcast something you put on your foot if you step on it at night? No, actually, the American Medical Association has treated that officially. There's an operation known as a LEGO ectomy, which involves surgical removal of the LEGO brick. It's good to know. And I thought it would be called the LEGO plaster, which is not an anagram of podcasts, but still. Cool. Let's go Lorelai Pete Kloss. So I'm Lorelai Schmaio. I've been having some conversations with Pete, and I just came to the Chico Lab meeting a week and a half ago. I was a scientist. I worked a little bit in medicine and agriculture, and I also worked in the intellectual property field. And I now work in the people field. I'm a coach. I'm an intuitive. I coordinate some communities. And I have some unique work. I recognize people's personalities in their eyes. So I'm one of the people that's actually needing to learn to reframe how I think about things and open more to how collaboration would really support me. I think technology would support my work growing out in the world, as well as just all kinds of communities in collaboration. So I'm here sort of expanding myself and then opening and also seeing how I can be of support to what you're all up to. Awesome. Thank you, Lorelai. And you remind me that there's sort of different, one of the ways I see OGM is it has different layers. It has this geeky lower layer, which is like distributed link contextualized warm data. Then it has this middle layer, which is very geeky, which is about visualization tools and data analysis and argumentation theory and all that kind of stuff. And then there's this lovely top layer, which is about presence and vulnerability and facilitation and bridging the gap and othering and all of that. And we don't get there very often. We don't get there often enough. And we don't spend a lot of time there. Ken Homer sent me a note saying he couldn't make today's call, but Ken tries to bring us back there now and then because he has really deep skills with like somatic facilitation and other sorts of things. But I think we need to pay an awful lot more attention to that. And I appreciate you sort of being here and bringing your skills to the group. So happy to try to figure out how to sort of meld with your superpowers in some way. I don't know exactly how to describe it. That's great. Thank you. Thank you for seeing me and bringing out some more of what I value even more than I'm able to share it. Thank you. Thank you. Pete Klaus John. Real quick. I want to, I don't know, I feel like apologizing for all the tech talk. We do social stuff too here at OGM. And one of the really interesting things that's going on right now is the Stewards group is kind of finalizing what's called the OGM Bootstrap organization and its relationship to Lyonsburg and maybe some potential for grant kinds of funding and things like that. If you're interested in hearing more, join the Stewards channel and ask questions. It's going really well. We're super excited. We've done a lot of great work. Jordan is meeting us well and things like that. I wanted to mention and actually along with that, I guess maybe I should say Jordan and Lyonsburg have contemplated not only kind of granting to OGM Bootstrap and the OGM Fund but also to some other sovereigns like Massive and Trove. So we're working out the structures for additional sovereigns to come in under either OGM Fund or maybe directly with Lyonsburg depending. So there's cool stuff happening there. I think Jordan and I were talking a little bit. Massive Wiki expanded pretty quickly to Massive Human Intelligence and Massive Human Intelligence project. So I'm kind of thinking of that as an umbrella for a couple things that sit alongside Massive Wiki. And I also wanted to talk real quickly about three concepts that I have been talking about in the terms of wikis, but it turns out that they work also for sovereigns and federation. So the three concepts are chunking, breaking bigger things of information or people into smaller chunks and then naming them and maybe renaming them, merging them, reforming them, and then linking. So I had this epiphany this morning that the concepts I was thinking about in wikis actually really describes well the sovereigns in the federation and the primordial soup that we're into. You want to find the right scale for doing chunks of work. So Massive Wiki is a concentration of work that works well as a chunk separate from a lot of the other stuff that's going on. And then you want to chunk stuff and you want to name it so that people can find it and you want to start creating links between things. Massive wants to link up with Trove, for instance. So I'm going to write that up more and talk about it more. But I'm super excited by kind of that conceptual thing going from wikis to also the federation that we find ourselves in. Love that. Just by the way, so the reason this call has to wrap up the half hours that we have a standing call with Jordan around this process right after these calls, which if somebody is interested, you know, if you're interested in the process, you're welcome to join. So we're kind of at the point where there's a couple of MOUs about ready to be signed with Lyonsburg, the entity that Jordan created in order to tow sovereign entities into the waters of steward ownership, which I can explain more later. But it's a really interesting journey and we're like in a lot of work, but it's been really fun. Klaus and John. Yeah. Food business is raising a long changing and morphing. I had this article hop into my mail inbox this morning, which is sort of calling out corporate entities in the food business to to fess up what they're really doing to change and adapt, which is of course also the focus of the webinar that we have created. And so it's exciting to say we have already over 600 signups for this so far. I'm just going to copy this in here for a moment again. But anyway, we had a meeting with the panel yesterday. And I think we're going to have just a phenomenal conversation because what we're trying to accomplish here is to advance the conversation about regenerative agriculture and elevated to a systems perspective. So there's a farmer, farmer Trey Hill, who has 13,000 acre, 13,000 acre fourth generation farm. And he will talk specifically to the hurdles that he has to really convert his operation. And lots of that has to do with the supply chain unwilling to accommodate his needs. And which brings us to the engagement of the public to have to know what what is happening in the food sector. So the United Nations this year has focused on food as the centerpiece. And they specifically are saying food systems in a recognition that this is a very complex part of the economy that's tightly interwoven. And over 70, almost 80% of it is controlled by chain operators, who so far haven't stepped up to the plate at all. So the business climate leaders is hosting this and there are some really very motivated folks who are working to promote this, we're out in multiple channels, social media and direct mail and so on. So it's I'm like super encouraged. So at the same time, Jordan said, you know, it's saying you have to draft a business plan for for for your food sector there. And I'm trying to I'm like, totally focused on this webinar for next week right now. But now the challenge really is how do you how do you move this to the ground? How do you get your feet on the ground and start moving something? I mean, it's one thing to talk about it. It's another thing to actually engage with folks who are already in an operational mode and and and work with that. So global regeneration co lab may be a good partner, because they already have a communications platform that's so specialized. The gap that that that I'm trying to wrap my mind around how do you frame this but the gap in the system is the link for smaller independent multi crop farmers to link to the market to link to the wholesale market. You know, the the all these food hubs and and farmers markets and so on are a ministerial part of the entire business. And this is not going to scale no matter what you do with it. You know, when 80% of the market is controlled by corporate entities, then we have to engage corporate entities to participate. So that's sort of now there's the thought process underlying, but it's an exciting project. And and we're starting to connect hopefully in its its work in Barclays. Thank you, class. That was really that was really clearing helpful. And good luck with UN summit. That sounds sounds gonna be great. John, sorry for the shortness of time here. Okay, okay, we can go quickly. So to over generalize, we as a group are looking we are sense makers, but we're primarily looking at external knowledge. We're dealing with the cognitive biases, our own somewhat, but mostly others. And we're dealing with overwhelm like there's way too much information and way too messy way to so all of the tools we've been talking about today and all the strategies and and Pete's comments about chunking, I mean, they're all relevant to all that. They are also relevant to the question of what's the internal sensemaking mechanisms that we're using, where the vulnerabilities of those things and are there any tools for the internal sense making. Now we know about a couple, we know about cognitive biases.  Now there is a, I'll call her a cognitive scientist. I don't know exactly what her PhD is in her name is Jill nephew. Her new product is called inquire, but it's spelled I N Q W I R E dot IO. It's, I think it's beta. I mean, I'm in it. I just signed up. It feels kind of beta to me. The fascinating thing she's doing is she's very finely parsing what your brain does as a filtering mechanism as it tries to make sense out of things. She's not stopping with belief. She's looking at roles. She's looking at when did you feel like an insider? What was that like? How might that have influenced what you saw? What would it be like if you could not be an insider? Let's do a scenario. There's no insiders. You know, that's a stretch. I mean, I got it. On the one hand, I'm happy. She's asking such a difficult question. On the other hand, I got to give her feedback. She's got to help people more in this program. But for a lot of folks, that's too big a leap. Don't ask me to imagine a scenario in which there are no insiders. I mean, you can do it, but you got to give me more help if you're going to ask me that. And that's the kind of thing she asked me this morning. I mean, her program asked me that this morning. I said, wow, interesting question. People are going to need help to answer that kind of question. She's got a lot more like that. A lot of 35 different lenses that your brain uses to look at the world and then make sense out of it. And she's very concerned about privacy. You write a lot of things in this program, and they all stay on your computer. The only thing she collects are the decisions you make.  Did you not answer that one? Did you skip it? That's the data she collects and keeps on her servers anonymously. So it's really interesting in many respects. Most interesting in terms of sense making. Also interesting as an example of how you implement responsible privacy along with AI enhanced data collection about individuals, thought patterns, and so forth. So stay tuned. I'll tell you more when I get further into the program. John, thank you. I hadn't heard of her and it sounds really interesting. And I love, I love people who develop rich frameworks for understanding ourselves and shifting our behaviors and all of that. So it sounds very useful that way. She is brilliant. She's on the clubhouse. You can find her. And if I put the, click the bell, if you're a clubhouse person, click the bell that says whenever she's talking, let me know. Because if you find her in a room, what she's saying is definitely worth listening to. That's a good idea. All I have to do now is like go back in and listen to the clubhouse over again.  So why don't we wrap our call here? Doug, thank you for coming in. Sorry you caught us just the very tail end of this. Yeah, I had a dental appointment. And these days, it's hard to find a dentist who has free time. Indeed. Indeed. I was happy when my dentist was able to use like the micro blade, whatever they call it, abrasion thing, because it makes vapor.  Basically, it's a little vacuum.  It was all really interesting. I'm like, oh, pandemic created some defil innovations. So thank you all. From your background, are you a fellow beer, John? You're muted. I joined as a lifetime member of the Alumni Association, but I didn't actually go to Berkeley. I lived near it. And I saw it as such a great resource. And I wanted to use the library and everything. So I said, I'm going to buy a lifetime membership to the Alumni Association. Cool. Yeah. Thank you all. See you online on the intertubes. Bye for now.