And we are back again, specifically I, because I'll be sharing this conversation on health today. And we're talking about stress and trauma management as we have alluded before with Sakwinoa, a small discussion. Now we have the professional with us here in the studio. I've been joined by Annabel Gishire, who's a counseling psychologist, also a child psychologist. Can you say that, Annabel? Thank you for having me. Glad to have you. All right, so you want to tell us a little bit about your background before we get to the topic? Yeah, today is a very special day because today is World Mental Health Day. And I'm a child psychologist by training and a counseling psychologist. Generally, I'm a counseling psychologist, but my specialty is children, child psychology.  The way when you need fitness, you go to the gym. The same thing, when it comes to mental health, you have a safe space in your family. You have a safe space in your spouse. So that is the culture I'm creating through my docket of mental health. Okay, amazing. That's an amazing thing that you're doing. So getting into the topic, stress and trauma management. For stress, I believe everyone knows, you know, stress we oil, you know, go through stress at some point in life. But what is trauma for someone who doesn't really know what trauma is? So trauma is an emotional response that occurs after a distressing event. So now we have acute trauma which happens because of a single event. An accident happened. That is a single event. Then we have now chronic trauma which happens prolonged domestic violence. So you have lived for 15 years watching domestic violence in your home. That is chronic trauma. Then we have complex, which is multiple. So multiple events. There is grief and loss. You've lost a loved one. You've witnessed domestic violence. You have had an accident or you've had and dealt with emotional issues that are dealt with. So now trauma is an emotional response from a distressing event. So what does trauma lead to? Acute trauma, what does it lead to? Or what are the, you know, not really repercussions, but what do they lead to? So for any human being, you need to be productive, holistically. By holistically, you have the will of life.  So you need to be able to relate to this. You need to be able to relate to people. You also need to be able to be productive in the family and the workplace. So when you have and dealt with trauma, so if you have and dealt with trauma, it means you've not healed. You've not healed from all these events.  So you're not conscious of them anymore? Yeah, yeah, so that is where you find, if you've not healed from trauma, you will not be productive because any event reminds you of the traumatic event. So that means you're stuck. And you can only move forward if you feel. The first process of dealing with trauma or any stress-seeing event is acknowledgement. 254, imagine. So most of us don't heal because still in denial, it didn't happen. But it is in your unconscious, but it is leading your conscious. So the first thing is acknowledge that it happened and accept that you need to do something about it. You needing to do something about it is maybe getting help. Every traumatic event can lead to PTSD, which is post-traumatic stress disorder. Now that means that calls for a professional to step in, to help you. That might be a counselor, a psychologist, that might be a psychiatrist. And also when you acknowledge and accept, you'll also be able to understand your triggers. So you will not go to environments where you're going to be triggered because if you get triggered, it means you're going to have an outburst of emotion. Remember trauma is an emotional response. So it means your emotions will be imbalanced. So any trigger could take you back to when the event happened. And so that means you will not be able to relate with the people around you. That is colleagues, family. Also you will not be able to relate with yourself because you're stuck. So you will not be able to seek help. And any time you seek help regarding any stressing event, PTSD, any stressing event, the professional will be, we are all different. The way you deal with trauma is not the way I deal with trauma. The stage you're in in trauma is not the stage I'm in trauma. So that professional will be able to help you heal.  So the hay mechanism is you're going to be able to heal and as you heal you're going to evolve because as you heal you need to reveal the better version of you, post trauma. And then you're going to yield. So yielding is being productive in the workplace, in the being productive as a holistic individual. That is, I always tell everybody, just have a hay. Me saying to you hay is have you healed? Are you evolving? And are you yielding? Wow, I love that. Are you, okay, the hay? Are you healing? Are you evolving? Are you yielding? I love that. So now how does someone know? Let's use this as an example. Someone has just gone through a loss of a loved one. How do you know? Because they also give stages to grief. And maybe you are not really over it. How do you really know that this is something that I need to seek help for that I've not really healed? Because some people, I believe, heal on their own without seeking external help. But how do you know that you have not healed and that you need help? The first step of knowing you've not healed is, stress is normal. But if stress prevents you from being productive, now that becomes abnormal. So it means it interferes with your day to day activity. So if it is interfering with your day to day activity, it means emotionally you're not well. Socially you have withdrawn from people. You're not motivated about anything. Whatever used to excite you doesn't excite you anymore. And then you just have overwhelming emotions of sadness. You're not yourself. You hear people saying, I feel I'm not myself. If you probe further, you'll find there is, and probably it's loss or some, you know loss can be loss of a loved one, loss of a job, loss of a relationship. Any type of loss. Any type of loss. So if you're not productive, whatever used to excite you, you're no longer motivated, you're flat.  You love to be with your own space. There are people who are like that, introverts are like that. But if you've noticed, so there are two dimensions, one you can withdraw and the other things out, you can be too talkative because you're seeking affirmation, you just want to share, you just want to air it out. If it has changed you as a person, your personality, and also if it has changed your emotional arena. So you're no longer, you have outbursts. Anything can make you angry. Okay, easily triggered. Pardon? You're easily triggered. You're easily triggered. And also you're getting into self-destructive behavior. So some people seek, they cope by getting into self-destructive behavior. Such as? All of a sudden you, alcoholism or substance abuse, and it could also be over-eating. It depends, it varies with different personalities and different people. Okay. You also mentioned that there are stages with trauma. Can you give us the stages? What are they? The stages with trauma. So the acute chronic and complex. Okay, so those are, I thought those are types. Those are types. Do you have stages like for acute trauma? Is there a stage that you know this is too much or is acute trauma better than chronic trauma, chronic trauma better than complex trauma? So trauma is trauma. Whether it's acute, whether it's chronic, whether it's complex. The difference is there is one event. So one event could have happened and has become a traumatic event. Then when it's chronic, it's prolonged. So you have seen it for a long time. So for example, if your child is six years and has seen domestic violence and right now they're 25 years. That is chronic. That is chronic because it's prolonged. Then we have complex, which is multiple. So there was an accident, you have lost a loved one, and a lot of other traumatic events. So that means you have not healed from each and every event. Well, it's complex. It's because for you to unpack that trauma, you will have to deal with many events. So would I say that that is more in terms of intensity, that is more intense than the other two types? Yeah, we could say it's more intense because you have not dealt with a couple of things. But the bottom line is trauma is trauma. So even if it's a single event, it could be so severe for someone based on their personality and based on who they are. And the complex, the surprising thing is most adults are actually dealing with complex trauma without knowing. Okay, because you've gone through a lot of problems without actually healing from any of them. Yes, and that is the only, now I urge us who are bringing forth the generation, our children now will be generation alpha. Starting from home, ensure that your home is a trauma free space. So that by the time you're getting to the world, they are able to be empowered to deal with what is coming from the world. But we could say complex is the most intense, but the bottom line is trauma is trauma. I don't want someone to say that mine is just a single event. I don't need help. Mine is not severe because it's not complex. Bottom line is you need to heal trauma is trauma. Trauma is trauma either way. And you've mentioned that we need to create a safe space in our homes for the next generation. What are some of the other ways in which we can deal with trauma in our own capacity or we can prevent trauma? So the first thing is awareness. So I call it the three Cs. So the first one is connecting with yourself. For you to, what I mean by connecting with yourself is I know what works for me. I know what doesn't work for me. I know what I have not healed from. And I know how it's affecting me now. So by connecting with myself is, hey, you need to get help for this. So you yourself first be a safe space. How do you become a safe space to yourself? What do you tell yourself, communicating with yourself? I always say the most important words in this world is I am. I am because you create it. So every day I'm telling myself I am not healed. Even if I'm going to see a counselor. You won't be healed. I will not heal because that is what I'm communicating with myself. So you yourself first before getting validation from out there, be a safe space to yourself. Being a safe space to yourself is, I acknowledge this happened to me. I am different from what I and the event are different. So the event happened doesn't make me a bad person. It doesn't make me a lesser being, but me healing from it, it means I am writing a story and it means I'm actually going to evolve and be a better version of me. So be a safe space.   If you're a CEO, if you're leading an organization, you're going to take guard of your organization.  But you cannot take care of others. Now that is where we go wrong. We try to take care of others without taking care of ourselves. So that will also help you have coping mechanisms. So what works? Because you already know your triggers. What environments don't I survive in? What environments trigger my event? You will not expose yourself to those environments. But with time, as you're working with a psychologist, you're going to be exposed. So that you will know that you've healed when you expose yourself to those environments. And they no longer trigger you. They will remind you of the events that happened, but they will no longer have such an impact that it will lead you to sadness or it will get you to outburst of guilt, shame, different emotional responses. And so you have a coping routine. Let me use an example that we all use. You avoid some people because she's going to come. So what people say is, I avoid so and so because they're going to tell me about their problems. So in such a scenario, you ask the person, what does them venting to you remind you of? Okay. So you'll find it reminds them of something in the past that they've not healed from. And that is where they're avoiding. So what we do is we run away from healing from trauma. So the first thing is accept that it happened, acknowledge that I need to do something about it. Get information of where do I need to get help from? You have psychologist, you have psychiatrist, and then have a coping mechanism in your life so that you're able to be productive.  And when you're a safe space to the world, it means you have already healed. Okay, yeah. Wow, I love that. Especially the parts where we're supposed to be a safe space to ourselves first before we be a safe space to others. And now there's this assumption, I don't know if it's true, that when you have trauma, you tend to attract someone who has also had some sort of trauma. And then when you come together, especially in a relationship setup, in a marriage setup, so you have trauma that's probably childhood, you've been raised with some violence, form of violence, and then your partner also comes from the same setting and then it becomes another toxic environment where you also raise your children from. Is it something that's actually proven to be true? Yes, and how to respond to that is if you've not healed, you're going to, you've not healed as a person.  So you're going to attract what you are, and you're going to attract environments you have derived in. You have derived in a domestic violent environment. That is what you know. So you're not going to attract that environment because you have not dealt with that trauma. You're going to attract that environment because that is what you have seen, that is what you know. So there are feelings that you didn't get from your family that you're going to get from this environment. So for example, I didn't get love from my family and I get a man who is showing me the love that I didn't get.  The question you're asking is I need, who can give me love? He's answering, I can give you love. So you attract environments you have not healed from.  You're one. So we always need to differentiate the traumatic event and you. You can make a decision to heal from the traumatic event and evolve. And after attracting that environment, people come to know later, I am seeing reputations, I'm seeing patterns of my family in my marriage. But it's because it was answering a call. Okay, now that makes a lot of sense because you know, you wonder how that's actually happens but you get someone that answers to a question that you've had that you get into such a setup. Now, let's talk about stress, stress management. Stress is something that everyone goes through. I believe it's normal to have stress, right? You'll tell us. Then how do you, if it's normal, how do you manage stress and what does having high stress levels lead to again? Yeah, so stress is normal. Everybody, if I don't know who doesn't have stress, stress is normal. Now we have two kinds of stress. We have you stress and distress. So you stress is positive. You stress, like why are you or? You stress, you stress. You stress and we have distress. You stress is positive stress. So positive stress helps you to become a better person. Then we have distress, which is now negative stress. It has negative outcomes. So we always need to differentiate that. Between the two. So tell us about you stress first. You stress is, for example, I have a family. I am a colleague. I've gone back to school. I'm going to have stress because I've gone back to school but going back to school, will it have a negative outcome? Okay, it helps to become a better person. It helps to become a better person. So what you need to do is have a, you need to balance.  But now it can become, and it can become, it can have a negative outcome. If let's say you have added the school, you've gone back to school, then you've now neglected the family. So now your children are going to be distressed because you're no longer there, there's a gap. So we have always differentiate what you're feeling. Is it... You stress? Is it you stress or distress? You stress, okay. So how do you deal with stress? The first thing of dealing with stress is give what you're feeling a name. What are you feeling? So that is being aware, self-awareness. The first thing is be aware of, this is what I'm dealing with. So what can I do about it? What can you do about it? Is now you need to tap into what I said, connect with yourself. Connect with yourself. So what do I need? Most of the times we tell people to ask for help. You cannot ask for help if you actually don't know what your... Kind of help you need. Yeah, what help do you need? So the first thing is be aware of what you're feeling, accept and acknowledge, I am feeling this and don't... You are not what is stressing you. You need to differentiate. Between the two. Between the two. And after accepting, you need now to have what can I do about it? Can I have a coping strategy for it? What are your coping mechanisms to be? Productive. Do I need to seek help? And if I need to seek help, do I need to see a psychologist? Do I need... What do I need or who do I need to reach out to? So you connect with yourself, communicate with yourself in terms of affirmations. By affirmations is Annabel, you can do this. Annabel, we're going to get through this. It's just a matter of time. It's not over until I win. Because the first thing stress in life as a normal human being, when going through life, you're going to have stress encounters. And these stress encounters, you have a choice.  So if... No, it is your choice. That is your call. So in such an environment, what can I get from the environment I'm in? Do I need to change my environment? Do I need to seek better... Maybe better initiatives, plugging into places where you feel safe? I always tell people, if I am stressing you and I have an initiative, don't come to please me. Because at the end of the day, you will not be productive. So in every encounter, the first thing you should ask yourself, am I productive? If I'm not productive, is it because I have not healed from a traumatic event or is it because there's a stress factor in whatever is not making me productive? That is why people actually stay in workplaces where it's toxic, but at the end of the day, they know it's toxic, but they can't do something about it. They're not applying to other jobs, they're not doing anything. Yes. Okay. So now that will lead you to depression. Now, the aftermath of prolonged stress is depression. Now, when you get to depression, when you get to depression, now that needs medical attention because it means you're no longer productive in your life. Okay. All right, so I would say, would that, is it okay to say that prolonged stress is now the, like, it leads to now, okay, not really leads to depression? I'm trying to see if there are levels of stress, basically, are there like stages of stress, like there are stages of, you know, what leads to depression or types of stress that people do have that can lead to depression or is it the prolonged stress that leads to depression? It is prolonged stress that leads to depression. And what I mean by prolonged stress leads to depression is it's something that has been there with time. It has grown in due time. So you have not dealt with it. Okay. The first thing you've agreed is stress is normal. And then when you have now the distress, which have a negative outcome, if you're not aware of it, so it means it's going to be a dealt with. When it's not dealt with, that is when it gets to a place where you're not able to be productive as a person. Yeah. As a person is, you're no longer your safe space. So that leads you, self-harm ideas will come in, suicidal thoughts will come in, now that we have heated depression. Okay. Yeah. All right. So now, how do you cope with stress that are almost like, almost beyond you to an extent, stress that is brought about by people that you can really control. I'm going to get a good example, or maybe in a work setup, you're in a toxic environment and at that particular point in time, you can't really get a new job or you have tried, but you're not really getting a new job and it's taking a toll on you. So how do you create a safe environment for yourself even in that space? I always have one mantra where the whole world can be toxic, but you cannot control the whole world. The only person you can control is you yourself. So when we get to that understanding of the only person you can control is yourself, it means the only person who can act on the stress factor at the moment is yourself. So I mean this workplace, what can I do about it? I can't live. I can't live. I can only manage to stay in that toxic environment. So every day, let's say every day I am stressed to a point I'm having, I'm unproductive in that setup. So which means physically, emotionally, holistically. You're drained. You're drained. So which means it can actually even leading you to getting to medical cases or psychological cases. The only person you can control is yourself. So what I ask is what can you do in that setup? So and you'll find someone can probably, I'm using the example you've used. Someone can say I can talk to my supervisor to talk to the person who's stressing me. What if they don't change? Yeah. There's an occurrence they might not change. So I as a person need to create a coping strategy. In such a situation, the best thing is to live. That is the best thing because you are unproductive. So it means you're drained, which means it is going to have, it's going to have a prolonged impact you staying in that space. But now that you can't live, have a coping strategy. Do you need a safe space to debrief with? Do you need like to debrief with someone? So that you can even seek therapy. So you're still working there, but you are real. You're working the journey with a counselor. So the counselor is supporting you through that process. If you can't, you can't go to a counselor. You can also choose coping with juggling. But in such a situation, there are situations where you do not need to stay there. You need to live. And you can never see the next step if you don't make the first step. We are always afraid of living toxic environments because toxic environments are comfortable. Toxic environments are, they have a reward. Because they have a reward, you're afraid of making the first step because of losing that reward. And I always, this is a mantra I always have, is getting, creating a mental wellness culture for yourself is the best reward you'll ever give yourself. And you will never find it unless you take the first step. Okay. So it starts with you yourself as a pastor. Yes. All right. Now we were discussing with Michael host earlier on the morning about this topic. And he mentioned something about self-diagnosis of depression because we've said prolonged stress can lead to depression. So are you able as a pastor to self-diagnose that I'm depressed for sure? I'm depressed. Or do you need to see a counselor or a professional for that? Yeah, for you to be diagnosed with depression, you can diagnose yourself for stress. I'm stressed. I'm stressed. You know yourself when you're not stressed. But depression has to be diagnosed by a psychiatrist or a clinical psychologist because they have to run assessments. Okay. So that they're able to know where you're at when it comes to depression. Some people actually have diagnosed themselves with depression when it's not depression. It's actually stress, yeah. Yeah, and I think we use the term loosely nowadays. I'm feeling depressed. I'm depressed. But in fact, you're just stressed.  How do you support? How do you know that this child has trauma as a parent? So as a parent, when I always tell parents, as a present parent, you will always know traumatic events that affect children. And nowadays our children, traumatic events are very like transitioning from one school to another. That is change. Really, yeah. So let me use an example with teens, teenagers. Teenagers are in that period of identity where they're seeking identity. So in schools, a child goes through body shaming. That is an event that to a parent might be, they have only told you that you're chubby. That's wrong. What's wrong? You're beautiful. But to that teen is they've been told, you're ugly, no one will ever love you. To them now, if it is not dealt with at teenage, in due time, it's going to be, it might cause trauma. So trauma too, let's say it's a boy who told her that you're chubby. So this child, this girl will no longer have relationship with boys, or they're going to hate boys, or they're going to hate men when they are 25. Because of that one event.   All of a sudden wants to be in their room. And then they have emotional outbursts. So what parents say is my child has become rude. So when you come and tell me your child has become rude, the first thing I'll ask you is, could you tell me what has happened in the past one month? So that past one month, you'll find there is an event that has happened. So for example, they had, they had you not verbally fighting as with mom and dad. So to them is maybe mom and dad are fighting because of me.  So as a parent, if you're not present, so because the child wants to dominate. Now, what most of us mistake is rebellion is, rebellion for children is communication.  You're not hearing me. You have not been present. I need you to sit down and listen to me. And I call it parenting from the lens. So parenting from the lens is the lens, the eye without the lens you can't see. So the L is listen to understand and not to respond. So what do most of us parents do? We listen to respond, listen to understand. A child will start a story from ice cream, but what they want to tell you is, mom, you have not been doing this and this for me. Listen to understand. So then the E is engage. The way you'd engage your first born is the same way you're going to engage your second born. So you need to understand their personalities. You need to understand what works for them. And also the schools that they have, we are taking our children to help our children evolve with new traits, which is a plus for us because the 21st century, the children are growing very fast. That is why you'll find a grade six child, a grade six child actually results like a form one child. True, very mature. Yes. So you will not engage them with the same, with the same sports. So the N is nurture. As a parent, what do you want to nurture? I ask parents all the time, what do you want to nurture in your child? So what are you nurturing? What skill are you nurturing? So when you know what skill you're nurturing, it is one thing to be a parent. It's also another thing to nurture as a kid. All parents want the best for their children. But what are you nurturing? So the moment you're aware of that, you'll be able to identify the traumatic events and help your children heal so that they're able to be productive. The end goal for every traumatic event is being productive. So you connect with yourself, you communicate with yourself and you're able to create, which is creation. So then the S is support. So what support does your child need? So most of us are not able to support our children because in the first place, you don't know what they're dealing with. So when children come to me for counseling, whatever they were brought for counseling, what they were brought for in counseling is actually not what we are dealing with. We are dealing with things that happened one year ago, two years ago. So you're able to support your child through the process because a child can see me for counseling at six years and also come back to me at 13 years because those are developmental, different developmental milestones and also they're in different stages of life. So as they're evolving, evolve with them and in every stage, support them. Then the E is empower. The end game of every event is empowerment.  Tomorrow they're going to face a traumatic event without you. So when that happens, they are going to be able, you have supported them and empowered them to the level where they can actually, mommy taught me this. Now you can actually pass on the button and they are going to handle it. So that is how you create a culture of trauma is there and trauma will always be there because we are living in the real life but what we need to do is heal and deal with it. What about, I've always had this question. When people are going through loss of a loved one especially and there's grief, the children are usually just left out. So how do parents, because I think most parents don't know how to deal with the little children, how should they deal with children that are going through grief as well? So the first, that now will depend with the child, the child's personality, understand your child. So the moment you understand your child, the first thing is listen to their grief language. We all have grief language. There's someone who's going to keep quiet. So they are going to shut down. By shutting down is they want to connect with the feelings and what the state they are in grief as a child. So as a child, as a teen, they want to connect with the feeling of the loved one. Now this also depends with how close they were with the person. So the first thing I always tell parents is allow your child to go through what they are feeling. Don't force it. So you'll find how most children respond is, they're going to withdraw, they're going to shut down. So when they shut down, don't force them to, don't force them to speak about it, but evolve with that child, follow that child. So there are other children who are going to be so strong.  Yeah, exactly. Yes, he didn't even cry. So now how that boy is reserving it is, I am making daddy proud by being a man. By being strong. By being strong. But his breakdown might come in after the burial, the burial is done and now that is where he needs support. So the first thing is be able to know when your child needs the support and you can give that support, but an external person also needs to give that support. That is a psychologist. And so as a parent, the best you can do is understand your grief. Let's say you're grieving a family member. Both of you have lost a family member.  Now what we don't do is we don't communicate.  That is a traumatic event that needs to be dealt with because they're not able to communicate. Most children are not able to communicate when such a traumatic event happened, especially now when it comes to loss. So as a parent, communicate. Let them know that I am present. Whenever you need anything, I am going to hold your hand. I'm going to support you, but speaking a language they understand. They all speak to my child. It's not the way you'd speak to your child and also differentiate, get support as a parent. You cannot give your child support. When you yourself are not okay. When you yourself you're not okay. And that is why I always ask them who is a close person who was close with your child in this, before this happened. That could be a person who could help in this journey because you need to also heal from your grief and your child also needs to heal from the grief. But that family needs a psychologist to work with this child because what we use is play therapy. You as a parent will not use play therapy. But the best you can do in such is, you're not a professional, but be present and communicate that because they feel alone. When they lose a loved one, they feel alone. I don't have so and so has left me. So there is a gap. How can you feel that gap? Are there routines that used to be there that they used to do with the person who has departed? What can you do about it? So that the life that was there before is still maintained, but it has positive memories. So that it doesn't have, and how you can do that is by communicating it with them and also ensuring that those routines are there. And also they have a positive note on them. But allow your child to feel the feelings of the grief and loss and accept. So the breakthrough of any loss and grief is closure. When you get to closure, the child has healed and now they're seeing it from a positive lens. When they're seeing it from a positive lens, it means it is a dear memory that they can walk through with in their day to day life and they can still be productive in that area. Okay, wow, amazing, such great insights. Before we close it up, because I've seen time has really gone, you're really passionate about creating mental health culture in Africa. So how can we as a people engage towards achieving this goal?  So I always ask people, have you said hey to yourself this morning?  How am I feeling today? What help do I need? If you're doing that with yourself every day, you can be able to do it with someone else. And then having these conversations of mental health. We're having mental health conversations in our workplace, in the family and in any community, everything starts from the family. So as parents, are we starting these mental health conversations from the family level? Like as a parent, ask yourself, do you have a mental wellness check-in with your children? Or at the end of the day is hi, hi, let's eat dinner. Good night. So if you do that for 365 days in a year, it means your children are opening up to someone else and not you. Not you. So they're getting their mental health check-in from elsewhere and not you.   What are you doing about it? So I'm creating a culture where I ensure you have healed, evolved and you've healed up at the end of the day. And so as a country, we start from the family, we go to the community and then as a country, today is World Mental Health Day. You're going to see very many initiatives that are happening in the country. You yourself, have you ever plugged in a mental health initiative? Ask yourself, have you ever plugged in a mental health initiative? If you have never plugged into one and you have not created one, even in your family, like for example, let me give an example of an initiative in a family. The appearance will tell me every Saturday, I need to take my daughter. I have three girls. I need to take each daughter out by themselves that I know what is happening in their life. That is a parent who is aware that I have three girls and these three girls are different. And I need to check, to have a mental wellness check in with them individually so that they are siblings by the end of the day they are growing as a person individually. So do what you can in your space and I always say it's not over until we win. Okay. Yeah. Wow, amazing. Thank you so much, Annabel, for the amazing insights that you have highlighted today. And we wish to have you next time again for a different topic. Thank you, I enjoyed the conversation. All right. So that has been Annabel Ghishire, who's a child psychologist by training and also generally a counseling psychologist talking to us about stress and trauma management. I hope you've taken something from it. For me, it's the hey culture. Have you healed? Are you evolving? And have you yielded? Yielded means to be productive. That's my key takeaway from it. We're going to take a short break and then we'll be right back with the next conversation when we, Brian Sacco, see you on the other side.