All right. Welcome everybody to March. It's March 2nd. The hyperledger technical oversight committee call. As most of us are aware, I think we've been on this call before, but for those of you who are new, we have two things that we must divide by the first is the antitrust policy notice that is currently being displayed on the screen. And the second is our code of conduct, which is linked in the agenda. For announcements today, we have two announcements that we've heard in the past few meetings. The first one is the hyperledger definitely developer newsletter goes out each Friday. If you have something that you would like to include in that newsletter, please leave a comment for consideration on the wiki page that is linked in the agenda. The second one is the hyperledger mentorship program has started. There is a call for project proposals and that call goes until March 15 so just under two weeks that you have to submit your project proposals if you are interested in being a mentor. I did take a look at that there are five out there that look really interesting so looking forward to seeing more show up. Any other announcements that anybody has or would like to make. Okay, there's no other announcements. Then we did have the quarterly reports here. So Lane did come in by the time I had created the agenda. We have also since received Ursa and cello. That have come in the bevel one is still out there. I think there's a couple of people who have yet to review that one. Please do take a look. I didn't see any questions except for the one that I have on Ursa, which is that the Ursa report for q one actually comes out and is supposed to be doing like two weeks. And I think this happened the last go around to is we had the quarterly report for Ursa come in, like, just before the Q4 one was due and so we, we had some bit of confusion there and so I'm wondering if we should make the separate report the Q1 report and just assume that the Q4 report doesn't happen or in some ways what should we do here. So Stephen I see you have your hand up on a separate topic so I don't really have an opinion. I mean I think it would be it makes sense that that it be the whatever it is 2023 Q1 report, I would say but hand up for a different reason after. Okay. All right. Thanks, Stephen. We'll get to you in a moment. Does anybody else have any thoughts on the Ursa report and what we should do about Q1 versus Q4 or no. So I agree with you I think might as well skip it the only problem is they shouldn't become a habit that the groups can just keep on completely agree on. All right. So, yeah, Peter. There was a comment, though, that they had changed some of their committers. Yeah, I did see that too right. So wondering if maybe we could get them to add the Q1 information to it. Unfortunately I didn't see an answer from the submitter and what they were planning to do for Q1 so maybe we'll take that back to the discussion thread and see if we can get some sort of closure on that. Peter. I would leave some sort of trace of it that it was skipped.  So that that should maybe hopefully deter the habits forming where the projects just skip it because it's actually pretty easy to skip it and there's no any sort of consequence. Of course, I was just writing down how this has been skipped is not really a severe consequence but I also guess you don't really want to see your consequence or at least not a person. Okay, makes sense Peter. So we will take that then back to the submitter of the report and see if we can maybe maybe get the Q1 report to come out since it does have some differences like Ryan mentioned and see if we can see what we can do there. Yeah, I think Arno and Peter you're both correct we don't want people skipping their quarterly reports those are useful and they do tell us that things are happening or not happening it's the case maybe. Alright, so Steven, your topic. Yes. I missed this in in when I started to prepare quarterly reports but what is the timeframe that you're supposed to use for a quarterly report. Like the for the first is for releases and for the LFX insights. I've always done it that is the calendar quarter previous to when I'm reporting so I would do like when I did one this February I think it was I did from September to December as the time range that I was only talking about things that happened during that quarter. I noticed in the reports today that I was looking through it, the period was November, end of November to end of February so they're because, you know, basically they're putting it into February they go right up to the point of release so is there a guidance on this. Just like to be consistent with what others are doing and what what we're supposed to be doing. Yeah, I don't think I don't think we really have any guidance that we've given to projects. And consistency is key right consistency when within those reports for the project. So for you if you're always reporting the quarter, right the calendar quarter, then you will always cover all of the information and you won't skip anything right, say from the beginning of January to when you report it. You will have reported that, obviously in the Q2 report right so you're reporting on Q1 during the Q2 report. There are others who basically do from the last time they submit it right so that they're consistent in as far as not missing any time between when they submit it the previous report and when they're submitting this report. I don't like like I said I don't know that it matters as long as we're not missing any sort of information that exists there. Arno has his hand ups maybe has a different thought there. No, I just wanted this question has been raised before and I always tell people you can choose either one of those. You know, ways that you just talked about that Tracy, I think the problem with fixing saying this is the actual quarter is that because projects don't always all report at the same time. If you end up, you know, being towards the end of the quarter reporting on the quarter before is already quite far away. I remember doing this for fabric at some point and it feels like well I should report on the last, you know, three months rather than the actual quarter before.  I think works better. And as Tracy says, if you just keep doing this anyway, then you're consistently doing the same thing. You won't have gaps and that's what matters. Thanks Arno. Right. I have a terrible idea that I'll make as a suggestion. And that's just that we go. We all use fiscal years right and everyone reports in the same day. So all the reports will be due on the first day of the quarter. That would give clarity.  But I don't file these reports. So there might be people that have other ideas. I see a couple of thumbs up. So I see the floor to heart. The biggest issue at that rise, not the people filing the reports, but the people reading the reports. I don't think we would get very good quality reviews if we had all the projects reporting on the same day. Either people would have to do a ton of work or they would just mail it in. No comment. Yeah, Alexander. Yes. Just as a suggestion. It might not be that. There could be middle ground between detaching from the fiscal year entirely and between reviewing everything on the same day. What we could do is we could just do a randomized assignment and projects report on certain days after the fiscal year begins, but it's a fixed date. And it's assigned externally. What could be done is that they have to be reported on the same day. And as I pointed out, the people reviewing them are given a regular schedule to review the, the basically reports reviewed but not all at the same time but in sequence and that sequence is determined. Allocate a certain amount of time, how much it takes today. Double that and we have a good estimate. Yeah, so I think your first option is what we're doing today, right, where everybody has given a certain time in Q1 to report, right, their Q1 reports, whatever that is that the project calendar that exists. And then your second option, the, I guess the concern that I have, and I'm not sure if it's a big concern, but if we get everybody to report say on January 2. So they can recover from the new year. Then we have, you know, this sort of schedule that being shown on the screen here, where the TOC reviews on, you know, a weekly basis, somebody reports. And it might be that if there are questions or concerns, getting the, the submitter to respond to those questions or concerns. You know, say a month later, right. I think that's the biggest challenge that exists there but I, I don't know, this is, this is what we do today and I think that, you know, back to Steven's point, it's really just up to the project as to whether or not it makes sense to report for the previous quarter or for the 90 days since the last reported. I've built this calendar based on something that Tracy had done. And as this calendar has evolved over the years. I've tried to make sure that projects that share maintainers become more and more aligned like Aries, Andy, you know, grid and transact. I've kept fabric and salt to where they were since they were the first two projects to kind of get the ball rolling. So they're still kind of at the top. And to spread this out so over the quarters that these line up and they help us avoid. At the end of the year, it's easier since we have so many holidays to avoid having everything come do at once. I'm not married to any of this. If anyone has a better or fair way to do this. Let me know. Let us know. I'm totally game to change this up for 2024. I'm going to try for bringing up this. I think this helps people to kind of see that there is a consistent schedule for each of the projects. It's just not consistent across all projects. Like, meaning everybody reports on the same day. Other thoughts or comments about this. Even did we answer your question or cause more computer. Sorry to take this down radical. No, it's all good. So good. Thank you for the question. Alright, so if we then go back to the agenda. I guess the question that I have is, are there any other questions on the reports that we should talk about before we move on. Marcus. I wanted to say that I actually kind of like the idea of having this fixed schedule on my personal preference would be I mean not spreading it over three months, essentially. I mean, that of as part mentioned this will would introduce more work on the reviewers but on the other hand I mean reading or reviewing report which is already I mean this is also smells a little bit like old cheese. But anyway, so I would keep the system as we have, but I think it's also more important that the reports itself that they are consistent. So what I actually do not like by when I reviewed the reports we had so far is that some reviews basically report for the actual quarter. And some of some others were actually reporting on the beginning of the quarter until they until the actual report submission was done because I mean if that will happen for a project which submits in the end of the current quarter for the last quarter then this report will almost spend half a year I guess. Yes, this is just my comment. Yeah, thank you for that. Okay, now I'm going to having thought about it a bit more. I agree with Marcus I think and I find as a writer. It's kind of painful to have to figure out okay, let's ignore things like I had comments in my last one since Timo knows about our project. And I mentioned this release and this release and that was because it happened after December 31. I would say to deal with both of those things that a report, I think the distribution of when they're due is appropriate. I think we should make it that the report should cover the three month period before. And any reports that have been any projects that have been reporting differently should just fill the gap with an extra note in their next report. But from then on should be consistently reporting right up to the day that they submit. And basically that is just to make it easier to both write and read. So you know it's always this is the latest of what's happening up to the moment. That would be my suggestion. So, obviously, the ones that you've been submitting even hard that way. I guess we would have to find out if there are other ones that report similarly to you. So I guess we'll have to go through the list and see and then maybe let them know that that is what would be preferred. And then one other is maybe we make them do. I noticed, you know, do 2nd of March do 9th of March would it make more sense to have them do at least on a month basis so that they're there, but that actually never mind. I think that's gets complicated and comes back to the you have to review too many reports at once. All right scratch what Steven just said. All right. Any questions on the reports says they were submitted at this point though. All right. I'll take that as no. So, I guess, two things. First, I didn't have any specific to see topics to discuss only task force topics to discuss today. But does anybody have any other topics that they think is worthwhile to bring up to the TOC today and discuss. Thanks. So, I think I wanted to bring up the topic of project and suppose and I know Jim was working on it last year. And we had a lovely discussion on the GitHub issue itself. And I wish that we bring that again we bring it up again and Jim I'm not sure you have lived availability. But I think we have so many good points over there in the chat. And it's worthwhile for us to consider those points and bring them up. I'm just just FYI Jim is not on the call today. So, we won't be able to probably have conversations with Jim about that. I did associate your message about the task force discussion that you don't have a computer and to see if we can switch out which task force we talk about today. Before we do that though, any other topics that anybody would like to discuss on the TSE level. That's not task force related. All right. So that would be a no. So, I think we have two options here. One is that we can talk about security vulnerability disclosure without a room you having a laptop. The second option is last week Dave, they've been putting you on the spot. So if you're not ready to say you're not ready. But last week you had asked if we could continue the discussion this week of the task force that we were going through last week. So what preference do we have for task force discussion today. Would we like to try to talk about security vulnerability disclosures without a room and having access to his laptop. I personally would prefer while things are still somewhat fresh in mind that, you know, Dave carries on with the conversation we were having last week, but personal preference. I do see as well that I have been working on some vulnerability disclosure stuff that is sort of half baked and maybe it would be better to talk about that in a later week and let Dave take over this week. Dave, everybody's putting you on the spot. Are you ready? Really able. All right, I guess Dave can do that. Do you want to share your screen or do you want me to. Yeah, I'm just trying to pull it up here. I think I got it. Okay. If I recall, we got maybe halfway through the community section. I forget exactly where we left off. I think we got through public meetings. Next topics we're going to be meetups and workshops. So I didn't have much initial guidance here other than they're a good idea. But if anybody has thoughts on what a good practice would be for meetups and workshops, we can add that here. So I guess question David Boswell. Do we have any documentation or anything on the wiki that would help with people who are looking to put together workshops or meetups that we can point to. There is the meetup organizer guide. We don't have a workshop organizer guide that's probably a good idea to do it. I'm not exactly and I apologize about this, but I need to jump to help get a meetup going in about five minutes. We're live streaming something, a meetup from MWC in Barcelona. So I'm sorry, I'm going to miss some of this conversation. But yeah, I think meetup and workshops are a great idea and we do definitely want to support and encourage them. I think the ones we've done have demonstrated that they bring new users, new contributors into projects and the projects that do them seem to tie into the project health discussion. I think the projects that do actively do meetups and workshops tend to have indicators of health that we don't necessarily see in the projects that don't do those things. I'm fully supportive of this is a best practice and I again apologize I'm going to have to drop in four minutes for part of this discussion but there is the meetup organizer guide we don't have a workshop organizer guide is the short answer. Okay, we'll add the link to the meetup organizer guide. And we do sorry one more thing that just occurred to me we do have a bi-weekly meetup and workshop planning call maybe we can link to that as well that I can drop both of those links on discord. Yeah, I'd like to link David for the wiki page in the discord where all the meetup stuff is and the workshop stuff. Great, great, thanks. Okay. I guess I might be some more good ideas and run pull requests but I've spent the obvious. Oh, is there another comment here. Yeah, sorry. We're going to have to sign up to talk about meetups and workshops. Right, I think one challenge that I've seen people facing with that aspect is some of the maintenance have been reaching out or some of the people have been reaching out they don't know who to reach out to in order for them to organize the meetups. They don't speak or they're willing to give a workshop. They just need to find out people and I believe that has caused some delays or like they don't know who to talk to or who to reach out to. It would be worthwhile if we can have a mailing list where people can send an email saying that I'm interested in kind of this meetup to talk on this topic. And they can interact with an extra on the meetup optimizers, and they can respond back over there. There is a meetup organizer mailing list there's also meetup alias so people have questions. Those good the meetup alias goes to me and the meetup organizer mailing list goes to all the organizers. Let's add that information here. Bobby. I just want to say like I've worked with David running a meetup in my area. And there is a lot of resources out there. One of the things that, like a little history that has changed a little bit. Meetups before coven obviously were very geographically secluded. And then once coven happened, David opened it up so that if one group puts a meetup out there, it's broadcast to everyone. And now with the meetups were on the fence about going back in person because that seems to have so much more richness to the meetup and bring so much more so we're trying to figure out like a hybrid broadcasting them on YouTube but still encouraging people to meet up in person. And that's basically the meetups and I know with the workshops. The history of that was whoever wanted to do a workshop put it out there usually came out of something from the global forums. And I know now john carpenter and Jim Sullivan who have taken over the learning materials working group. They're really focused on doing hands on workshops and Jim has put a couple out there that are fabulous. So if anybody has any ideas for workshops like if your project isn't getting enough. So people coming in you might want to hook up with john carpenter and figure out a network meetup that will or network workshop that will get everyone involved and target the because they're attended fabulously these workshops people really want hands on short courses that can get them up and running on all the different projects of their flavor so just to catch up on those two items. Thanks Bobby. Anything else for meetups and workshops.  I think of course, for new contributors especially it's good to be welcoming and positive but I covered that in the first bullet here. Peter. Yeah, and you can see what that is in insights. Sorry Peter. I just wanted to say to have not just a quick review turn around point but also get a point which we have written down some other document I'm just not sure exactly there but point being, if you put an extra sentence there maybe that says try to review the pull request in the order they come in instead of based on which one you like better. I think it was something like equal attention to pull requests. Okay, sounds good. Yeah, I think just on the on how to prioritize pull request probably made the if the pull request addressing one of the issues that's there in the the get up, then I think it's probably address it rather than just some random pull request somebody submitted. So, because it's solving a problem that I think the project maintenance want to be solved. What do you think, Peter. I mean, I think it kind of goes on said I think the maintainers use good judgment. If there's something that's really important and hot. I think maintainers usually will prioritize that but as a general rule of thumb it's good to have equal attention to PR so I think that's, I think that's fine. Yeah, I'm also guilty of having merged pull request out of order. And actually I did that just a couple days ago because we had to build broken, and it was important to get it back on track. So, I'm very on board with also adding some additional little clarification in there that says to get some of the best effort basis he's best judgment. Hey, yeah, so I've been someone who's really been encouraging this. And you know I don't think it has to be a hard and fast rule like right obviously if you have a critical, you know, a critical security review or something or you know that can get jumped to the front. Another is that sometimes there's perception that, you know, people review like their friends PRs before before PRs from community members they don't know. And, you know, the idea is that with some adjustments for priority of the PR there should be, you know, it should be FIFO generally right. You know, I'm actually really curious to hear what other people like like Peter, you know, had some just now had some good comments about this. You know, I'm curious to hear what other people think about might be, you know, good ways to practically implement this. So thanks. All right, so I've said equal attention to PR is review and order of arrival as a general rule of thumb so it's not a rule written in stone but something to strive for in terms of practical ways to implement this I can't think of any. I also, I don't propose that he implemented some sort of an instrument on this. Just to at least mention it because from what I can tell a lot of people might not necessarily think about it. It's just sort of an unconscious bias that just creeps at some times. I think including that in in the maintainers guidance, which I have started to work on by the way I think I took that on as a task last week so I've started to work on that and I think just putting that in there, knowing that in the other reports, part of the insights and part of the metrics we look at our, you know, processing times on PR is processing times on issues I think that is just not hard and fast guidance out shall do this but rather, you know, these are things that are important to the, you know, the, the health of a of a project in a repository and therefore, you know, as much as much as you should pay attention to that when you're a maintainer that's one of your responsibilities. I think that's the best we can do on that and I think we can include issues and in that as well. And the other thing I noted that is a big problem in our projects recently is the maintainers looking at them and thinking and what they need to do with it but not actually sending feedback to the community and particularly the contributor to say, Oh, by the way, I'm looking at this. If it is in in my mind, but we've got to do this and this before we can merge that. And I find that when I realize that's what's been happening, it's kind of frustrating. But again, guidance to the to maintainers to help them, you know, to get that communication going, the need for that communication. Yeah, I'll jump in here. I think over communication is a great, great approach. Like one of the things that I think good project, you know, really healthy projects do is that when like a review is going to be slow, you know, maintainers will will tag it and say like, Hey, you know, I saw your PR, I'm a little swamped right now, you know, I will get to this in approximately, you know, X time right. And that way, you know, people know that they're just not being outright ignored.  But, you know, you're not intentionally forgetting them. You're just super busy and you'll get to it when, you know, when you can and hopefully when you tell them. So I really think this is a good idea. Like, you know, if people are waiting on you, like, comment and tell them that you've seen it and you're going to address it you just can't right now this makes people feel so much better. Rather than just a black hole. Yeah, I think that's really good suggestions here. Anything else on pull requests. Alexander. Just an observation from our side. We often have very string coding guidelines. And we often found that we need to relax them for community contributors. Rasters of the very popular language and fewer people still capable of producing into the level that we require. So what we found is sometimes it's better to just give very, very gentle guidance and then fix up after it's merged. It's a good point. Try to think how to word that here. Be gentle on your contributors. Perhaps relax. Coding guidelines and fix up later. Okay, anything else on pull requests. Okay, let's go on to contributing docs. So I put several of what I thought were good references here of contributing docs that projects already had there in a smattering of different places between the wiki and GitHub and read the docs. So we might want to standardize on that. I guess that kind of goes to the whole doc work group, which we will talk about in the later session. But the other thing that struck me is a lot of the content in here was repeated across the projects. So one idea I thought is perhaps we take a look at this and we try to pull out some of the content that is similar across the projects and put that kind of in a central place so it doesn't have to be reinvented and read and re documented for each project they can just reference kind of the the basic guidance around contributing to hyper ledger projects. And then of course each project might have additional considerations they'd want to document on their own. But if anybody has a project that I think they think I've missed in terms of a good reference. You know, we can add it here as well. But I'll open it up for other thoughts. Okay, I'll just say I think having a consistent template. Things that should be included in the contributing guide is extremely worthwhile, which I think is to your note there. But, you know, obviously, each project might have slightly different requirements for contributing that they would want to put into place but I do think that, you know, these, if we have something that says, these are the things that you must include in your contributing guide. I think that becomes very useful. Hey, anything else. All right, if we take a step back, or is there any other guidance around community in general that we should be mentioning to maintainers and new maintainers. So on top or not, but within the contributing MD, if we have a template, I would suggest to be very sure and thorough of that template including some guides and tutorials or basic good stuff. Yes, that's what you do your struggle with 95% of the time on course that I believe. But I don't know if this is going to spiral out into complete different conversation that then becomes off the premise document so they don't have to talk about this. I just wanted to mention. I missed part of that Peter but I do have a comment later on when we get to documentation just talk about the project developer guide including coding guidelines build instructions test instructions is that kind of the area that you were targeting. Were you talking about a tutorial in terms of usage. No, it definitely would be project coding guidelines of closest to it I guess. Yeah, we can discuss it and that's cool. Okay, let's defer that to get to that discussion. Maybe we'll talk about that also in the doc work group doc task force. David in the community section do we have anything in there about making, making decisions publicly and communicating kind of those discussions online and mailing lists and that sort of thing. I think that there are times when organizations can hold meetings privately and make decisions. And then people in the community are like where did that come from. I don't know how we came to this conclusion that this was the right decision to make. So I guess that's one that I just going through in that first link in the YouTube presentation it's with and I am doing a presentation on kind of good practices. And so I was kind of going to do there and that was one that I didn't see included. How's that decision should be made in public or at least socialized in public. Yeah, I think that makes sense. And then also going through that same presentation under the pull request. One of the comments that we have here is like, do not waste the contributors time if you're not going to accept the PR say that you're not going to accept PR because it doesn't, you know, match up with the roadmap or that sort of thing. Like, don't don't leave people hanging that they think it's going to be included in the project but in the end there's no way it's going to be included because it goes completely off the direction of where the project's going. And then I think the other thing is like mentoring is the other piece of this. And it could be mentoring on for new contributors and then come in and submit a PR like helping them through that process is probably really important to. Sorry I missed the last one I was typing while I was typing the first one. What was the second one again. It had to do with mentoring. So mentoring new contributors on kind of what that process is like helping them through the process. And I think mentoring would even come outside of PR right like but I think just the mentor aspect in general is important. All good feedback here. Anything else. All right, let's see that might be good place to end because we have the security section next and doc sections next and I'd kind of like to have the next discussions and those task forces before we talk about what we put here this was kind of just going to be a summary of some of some things if they don't catch all if maintainer doesn't want everything else is going on in those other places at least the most important things I think we should mention here. But I guess, what do you all think should we at least start these sections. I will say I thought this secure developer guide was really good from open SSF. So they cover a whole lot of things. But it's not an overwhelming amount of things so I think this is a very good reference. We should point people to. And in fact, most of my bullets here in line with what's over there as well. But I tried to call out in a concise way some of the most what I thought were the most important things. So what do y'all think should we start this section or defer until after that we talked about the security tax task force next time. I was just going to say to try and start to discuss it and maybe we'll have productive and short conversation in time we have left but maybe in the first two minutes we arrive at the conclusion. Oh, okay now this is not going to be both. So I would say let's just start and see where it goes and feel like we should stop it and stop it. Okay, so maybe what I'll ask instead of just reading all these just take a minute to read through them and think at again this document was not meant to be all encompassing in terms of a comprehensive depth. And that's to highlight the most important things for new maintainers, especially so maybe read through the list. And then we'll get your feedback on do you do we think we've covered at least most important things here and then we could step through them if we want to. Thumbs up computer. Alexander. I'll give one more minute. Roma thumbs up. Stephen thumbs up. All right we have consensus on thumbs up. I know thumbs up. Marcus. I think people think this looks like a fairly decent section. Okay, so I'll ask first if I missed anything that's very important here. That might be already included in one of the link guides, but the first thing that came to my mind was to not use auto upgrade to always pin the dependency versions to the point so that the auto upgrades supply supply chain attacks don't work. And, you know, they overtake the dependencies project and they publish a new release that is actually malware, and then you auto upgrade on to that by accident. So that I think that goes along with this line so pin dependencies and keep up to date. Yeah. So what should what should we say about should we say be where. So, how do we summarize what you said. Well as a sub point you could say auto upgrade can lead to can and have in the past legacy malware being distributed in malicious new versions of previously secure software. Okay, anything else important you think I've missed here. I'm just wondering what it means to schedule a security audit for graduate project of major releases I mean I understand what it means but I mean how would I mean what kind of suggestion is that we should do that security audit I mean what do we recommend here. So this one was a little doubtful in my mind as well I thought we'd have a discussion around that so I know at one point at least we've talked about hyper ledger doing this for graduated project major releases I'm not sure if that's still valid guidance. So what do we know off the top of your head. Hey, that's actually a fantastic question. We have traditionally done security audits and sort of an ad hoc way. As you all probably know they are quite expensive. So we typically have to ask the board to adjust budget based on the number of security audits that we are doing. We have tried to do them for graduated projects around major releases. The plan has been to initially try to keep doing that. But obviously, any and all feedback is welcome. And just keep in mind that anything we come up with, we need to run by the board on this, because there's a lot of money involved and we may have to adjust the budget one way or another. Did that answer your question Marcus. Well kind of I mean, I mean this is super interesting. I mean I was wondering as to how much is a budget for such a review I mean I was never exposed to something like that. But I mean as a guidance I mean, I mean if the project maintenance I mean should they all agree okay let's, let's, let's go together and ask the board for for an audit or when do we. I guess somewhere the rules for for a section request already. There's no rules really what's typically happened is the main chainers have suggested that they would like an audit. And then we as staff have usually asked the board to do it and recommended it. It's, it's, I guess, right can probably tell you the exact budget details for the security audits better than I can. Some of it does depend on the, you know, the code and the scope of the audit, but we would like to have a sort of more deterministic audit process basically. So, yeah, we're also looking for we want to find other vendors to get RFQs from. I know that Bezu has been underwhelmed by the quality of the audits that they got back. So, help us out, if you know firm, we'd love to talk to him. Yeah, and I think the audits have run what 50 to $100,000 is that about right right. Yep. Yeah, so they're not cheap. I see, I see. But I mean, if, if a project got such an audit, I mean, do they do we then put a batch on the project side hey they passed the security audit by XYZ. We have a wiki detailing all the security audits that have been done actually.   You know, in a good security audit, if a project's been doing well there will usually be some relatively minor things they found. If a project has, has not been doing a good job with security then, then, you know, then there might be major issues. But you know it's not it's not really a pass fail thing right. It's just a more we did this and we fixed the recommendations. Right. Okay. And eventually like we open them all up.  This is what people found. You know, some things. There can even be things that that aren't intentionally fixed right. We've had some cases where like, you know, there have been performance and security tradeoffs right where like security audit firms have complained that, you know, a particular interface gives people a lot of room to hang themselves. But it turns out that that interface is critical to some, you know, performance encode or something like that. So it's a process. I see. So what we would like to move to is we would like to, to schedule audits in some sort of more deterministic way, rather than the maintainers and the staff just sort of being like okay time for an audit right. In the past, it's been very, very ad hoc. I mean, I think something like, I don't know, once a year basis or whatever time frame is fine. I mean it would be good for the, let's say for the major projects, or for the graduated projects in general. Yeah, so our initial thinking on this was not too far off from that it was like sort of like at a major release and no more than once per some time period. Whether it's like a year or a year and a half or whatever. Yeah, I think on fabric I think we've had one for v1 and v2 and they were maybe three years apart so it seemed like pretty good cadence. Yeah, maybe we want faster than that but you know the some some cadence I mean these things take a while right. They take on the order of months. So if you do them too closely together then you're sort of always security auditing. But yeah, I think that's that's the general idea. Well but I also get that the first audit on the project I mean is definitely more work than follow up audit, if they leverage the magic of kids get histories. Well I mean I think it depends on what the project that's too large. Yeah, that's true. So I'm going to cut off this conversation because we are over time. Dave thank you so much for filling in today and working us through this. Arun will expect to do the security task force next week. So let me know if that's not going to be the case and we can schedule Bobby in if needed.


Egg centric at the Central Lakes College Staples Campus is the recipient of a grant from the U.S. Department of Agriculture to help farmers with risk management. The approximately $100,000 grant will go towards assisting beginning farmers in mitigating risks on their own operation. Egg centric will specifically focus on the air of human risk including employee management and mental health. Right now the economy is quite depressed. We've actually come through now. This will be the fourth year where net farm income is not even meeting family farm living needs and so that's causing some mental health issues out there. We're concerned about that so we want to be supportive through these workshops and offer tools really how to you know how to work through this situation and then the other side is employee management. A lot of our farms nowadays have sometimes just two to three employees sometimes it's up 10-15 employees and there's just some challenges with that and how to handle people with that. The grant is awarded by the Risk Management Agency at the Department of Agriculture and this is the second year that Egg centric has received this particular grant. If you've enjoyed this segment of Lakeland News please consider making a tax-deductible contribution to Lakeland Public Television.


Numbers. Numbers are the solution to all of your problems. Okay, first thing's first. Let's get a couple things out of the way because I know that there's going to be comments After I explain this somebody's gonna be like you can't you can't just do that Because you've got to know how to do all this other stuff first like yeah, yeah, you gotta this isn't gonna be an overnight fix This is how to think about the concept in order to make it easier on yourself But there's other things that you got to have in place first I mean let's start with the basics like play your scales learn your score. Why why do we play scales? Well, because if you want to be able to play in any key your hands have to be familiar with the shape of each of those keys You know whether you're playing just in C or E each of those keys has a shape that your hands need to be you know Familiar with before you can easily navigate the different keys So I guess if we were to stop at just being able to play in the key play your scales But this is more aimed at okay If you've been playing your scales and you're pretty comfortable playing scales in different keys How then can you translate that to chords and ultimately playing the songs that you want to play but being able to play them in Whatever key that's what this video is about also. I want to point out before I start that this is in no way like the definitive Here's how you do it This is the the generally accepted way in music theory class that they're going to teach you like I don't really know I just know that this is how I've always thought about it. So this is what works for me So my apologies if there's some other thing that you can do or should do That's I don't know more along the lines of like a music theory curriculum So we think of numbers a lot in music obviously when we're talking about like basic triads We know that they're built with one three and five and then logically if you think about it long enough You might figure out that that's because we're talking about scale degrees one two three four five And then you could continue six seven and that'll bring you back to one an important distinction here Is that what I'm gonna show you we can pretty much talk about between one and seven because after that we're talking about repeated notes Now that's different from chords because with chords if you want to add color tones beyond the octave we call that upper extensions You know that's when you start talking about your ninths your elevenths your thirteenths your sharp fifteenths But for our purposes we're gonna consider that chord spelling to be a different sort of Approach than what we're talking about which is just scale degrees and once we get to seven we're repeating again So we'll keep it relegated to like one octave just for simplicity's sake So if we take a look at that scale and we have one through seven that's gonna correspond to chords too, right? Because we have if we start each chord. We're gonna call this the one chord. We're gonna call this the two chord three four five six Seven and that brings us back to one So the first thing you'll notice is that those chords when we just use the the naturally occurring scale tones Some of those chords are major some are minor, right? We have major minor minor major major Minor and this one is the only outlier. It's like diminished kind of so if we're in the key of C And I say well play a one chord to a four chord to a three chord the default is gonna be one Which will be major for which will be major and then three which will be minor now That can always change if it's specifically indicated that it's different But in general the naturally occurring state of those chords is pretty much going to be that you can already kind of see What's going on here? The key here is that I don't want to think C major F major E minor A minor G major. I don't want to think about that. That's too specific. I want to think one four three six five Whatever right? Why do I want to think one four three six five because say I all of a sudden want to play an E flat? Well one four three six five It's it's gonna be the exact same thing the key with numbers the reason why we want to think in numbers is because numbers are Universal because no matter what key you're in it's still one two three four five One two three four five One two three four five One two three four five. It doesn't matter whatever key We're considering to be the home base in the particular context whether it's an entire song or part of a song Maybe a small part of a song is in like a different key for a minute But whatever key at any given time that we're considering to be the home base All of our numbers are going to reference the scale tones of that key So if we're in E flat E flat is gonna be one F is gonna be two G is gonna be three a flat is gonna be four B flat is gonna be five and so on and so forth now That does not change if we go to a a is one b is two C sharp is three d is four e is five And so on and so forth so this idea of using numbers Makes it so that every key all of a sudden becomes identical in every way other than the actual physical shape of it And again, that's where scales come in you got to play your scales There's like no there's no way around it. It sucks Nobody wants to do it, but we have to do it But the idea is that thinking in numbers makes every single key identical in every way other than physical shape from there Everything that we make alteration wise is the same as well. One two three sharp four. Sure. Why not five? One two three sharp four. Yeah, you bet five But the best part about it is that I don't have to think B flat C D E flat F And then when I switch keys now I have to think G a B C D and then I want to switch keys again I have to think E flat F G B B flat A flat B flat Everything's just one two three four five. This makes life So much easier because the only thing you need to know about any song you want to play is What is the form in numbers? Does it go one four three six two five one? All right. Well, let's do that then in very basic chord structure. We'd have one four three six two Now if I were to actually elaborate that and make the chords more colorful and more melodic that right there could look like this One six two five one So that's all in reference to The C major scale because that chord sequence happened to be in C major But if we change key say now we have a two five Leading to the four so let's start all right. Let's take that apart for a second I just played one four three six two five one and now I want to play a two five to the four This sounds like a bunch of numbers sounds like a bunch of gibberish, but check it out two five To the four leading to the four. What's the four what we have? All right, so f so I guess we're changing key and we're gonna go to f But we want to do a two five in front of that so now we're thinking in a new key just for a minute We're thinking in a new key f. Let's take f one two. Okay, so there's two. It's g three four five So there's five it happens to be C. So for this brief moment. We're thinking in our brains We're gonna switch keys and we're gonna play a two five leading to the four. So that's gonna sound like this Pretty normal familiar sound, but if we add it into the original thing that we played in C We'll find that hey that sound is not That's not unfamiliar the whole thing strung together check this out That's used in so many tunes over the years But what happens if we play in a completely different key? Let's go to something wacky like I don't know G flat Let's play this in G flat six five One five to the four Same thing but but now I don't have to think of each different instance of that chord sequence in its specific terms I don't have to think C F E a D G C and then G C to F I don't have to think about that because if I do now when I go to G flat I got to think of a totally different set of names. I got to go G flat B B flat E flat A flat D flat G flat and as everybody knows musicians are lazy And we don't want to have to think about more things than we absolutely have to so instead of having to remember all those different names Why don't we just think of it in numbers and we'll call it the same thing no matter what key we're in This is the secret to playing in any key You start thinking about everything in terms of numbers and not the names Now you can refer to the same numbers no matter what key you're in and by thinking about the numbers It helps you to visualize the scale So if I think say I'm an A major and I want to say one five seven well one Five six seven and I can do the exact same thing in D flat one Five six seven So again, this is a concept that a lot of you are probably already familiar with But if you're one of those people here's something that you can try to really practice this Take a tune that you know how to play or that you like to play and play it in all 12 keys It might take you a while it might be difficult at first But the results are definitely worth it and over time you'll Slowly but surely develop the ability to think about whatever it is that you want to play and and be able to at least think through it, you know in in every different key and With enough practice pretty soon you can just do it in real time But yeah, you have to play scales and yeah, they suck, but Whatever do it anyways, but anyways, thanks for watching this video If you felt like you got something out of it hit that like button and if you haven't subscribed already and you would like to do So please do I really appreciate it Let me know in the comments if there's other things that you'd like me to touch on or explain or any musical questions That you have and yeah, thanks for watching


Doing this is ruining your hair and skin.  Now add a wet pillowcase in the mix and you've got yourself an ideal breeding ground for them to multiply.  Take the extra time to dry it out and if that's not an option apply coconut oil or sleep with a silk pillow to help avoid breakage. But you might want to wash that pillowcase the next day.


What got you into infectious disease as a specialty, you know, I did it as a third year medic fourth year medical student The rotation I wanted to do was Filled and I looked I had to do something so I'll try infectious diseases because at the time I was hitting to family practice And I did it and I was hooked I mean it was so much fun and the cases were so cool and the attendings were just the greatest people And they all share a characteristic that all ID doctors have which is a love of the sound of their own voice So I thought this is the field for me and so I never looked back And so it's sort of one of those rare epiphanies where you actually I actually had a life-changing event And I've had a blast ever since almost by accident. Yeah, it was by accident Well, what is it about chiropractic and other alternative medicine modalities that have has you really concerned? basically it depending on the one and depending on what you're talking about most are not based in reality and most don't work and I think that patients and sick people should have therapies that are based in reality and some things like say Homieopathy we're so far from reality that it boggles the mind or reiki And it should be based on things that are shown to be effective because people's lives and health and their um Finances are dependent upon that and so I think we have an obligation to give people medicine that works the financial aspect is one that I I don't think I heard much until listening to you and then also reading my Ed Zard Ernst book trigger treatment and That definitely gave me a different perspective because In chiropractic we talk about oh, you know adjustments are so much cheaper than Being on all of these prescriptions But it really depends on how you look at it an adjustment can you know for 60 bucks a pop oftentimes is what people charge Intended Compared to you know a bottle of ibuprofen or some other painkiller. Oh, yeah, and for serious illnesses I mean I bankrupt people all the time seriously people come in without insurance they have a serious infection that I have to treat and by the time They're done they're permanently bankrupted and you know in the outpatient setting you used we're all used to seeing the results of minor problems, but if minor problems progress they can lead to major problems which Devastate people financially emotionally health healthily But these things are very expensive and they mount out very quickly and you lose track when you're a provider is to just how much This stuff can cost people that they can't afford often Even simple things I remember my brother didn't have insurance for a while and was having some pain in his upper left quadrant Someone's ingested. Maybe it's your spleen. Maybe it's something else and so went to the ER They said no, you just have the flu. Here's Tylenol and the bill came back for like five six hundred dollars. Oh, yeah And just really even that small amount relative relatively small amount really hurt him. Yeah, actually Now you do deal mostly with those more severe cases, right? Yeah, I mostly yeah I'm 99% in patient medicine. I have very little outpatient medicine. So I obviously have a skewed perspective on on health care I only take care of Very sick people in the hospital rarely. I don't have much of an outpatient practice for a variety of reasons How do you think that if that? Excuse your perspective on alternative medicine Oh, yeah, it definitely does because I don't take care of those people who have the problems that no one can figure out And for which there are no therapies. I chronic fatigue syndromes, for example, which um, you know People suffer from I see them occasionally but people with chronic problems that have minimally Effective therapies and especially don't have a cause I don't deal with those and that's a whole realm of medicine That is extremely difficult To know how to treat and what to do.  It's a simple. It's a simple job so it does skew you because I'm used to figuring it out fixing it getting it better and moving on and a lot of outpatient medicine is chronic Illness, which I recognize and I don't deal with that. So my skill set is suboptimal for treating chronic Unremitting undiagnosable diseases And it seems that that's what a lot of Patients that go to alternative medicine therapies are trying to find a cure for So nothing else has worked Yeah, you know, I think there's as many reasons that people use alternative medicines as there are people in some people because they have a Problem that doesn't get better. Some people are just contankerous Contrarians who doesn't want the man to tell them what to do, you know, and so they do it that way or there's fear like anti-vaccine people a Complete misunderstanding of vaccines. So I don't I actually have never figured out why even though I read the literature Why people go seek alternative providers as a general rule I can only speak as to why a patient goes to a given provider. This is pretty pretty variable Yeah, I started them always surprised sometimes at the people who do Are you why is that? I just think you know, they Don't have a problem that needs something, you know, they are on therapy But they add on other things that don't add much but expense, you know They have an infection so they take colloidal silver. That's not gonna help you. It's just gonna turn you blue And so Things like that Now you you spend a lot of time in your podcasts at least addressing chiropractic acupuncture The professions in general yeah are based around alternative medicine in undergrad I had a cold and went to the doctor and I was given by a medical doctor a homeopathic drug That kind of surprised me it was bright In the immortal words of gag health front, you know doctors are just this guy, you know, I don't know if you're a hitchhiker's guide to the galaxy If you ever get a chance download the BBC original television or radio show it's hilarious But doctors are no different and fortunately or fortunately than anybody else So there's prone to all the problems that the non-physician is for alternative medicine Unfortunately medical school training does not teach you how to think it teaches you What to think and you're used to that you're doing your basic science years, right? Mm-hmm.  What about this? There's no time for that right now Yeah, and you know that doesn't end and by the time you're done With your training which is basically stuffing information into your brain and learning how to do your job Then you have your practice which again Very time-consuming and and so people never get time to think critically about stuff. So a doctor uses homiopathy The average physician is no better trained than anyone else for evaluating those things So, yeah, that surprised me that leads me to two questions. First of all, if it's then the doctor That perhaps is uneducated in a certain area. Why why address the profession as a whole? Oh I don't know Yeah, why go after acupuncture or talk about I don't know. It's just I find it The guiding force for virtually every aspect of my life is to do what I find interesting I don't know why I find these things interesting But you know, I tell my kids this figure out what you enjoy and what you like and run with it and You'll be happier long run so I just find the I thought the whole issue of skepticism and how people think badly and how people think and Why people think it's just for me an interesting area and people say why don't you go after a big pharma? Or why don't you talk about I got a recent e-mail about all you should write about? Physical therapy, yeah, you know, it's just it doesn't interest me So I don't know why I just I do the things that I find interesting and I find those issues interesting I get that I agree. I find This idea of evidence-based medicine wherever it may be really fascinating and when I read Trick or treatment as much as it is completely against acupuncture and homeopathy and you know These things that I'm learning a bit about It fascinates me the stories behind how how clinical trials came about and and as you mentioned how we think and how we can be How we can fool ourselves. Oh, yeah, it really is amazing so if you don't okay, so so you just Talking in general terms about chiropractic because that's what's out there rather than talking about specific Practices or specific doctors that do specific treatments that may not have evidence behind them Yeah, and you know, it's in for my mind. I've come to this conclusion over time It's not the person. It's the it's not the sin. It's not the sinner. It's the sin To quote the pope. I think the pope said that I'm not it's not the individual doing something. It's the overall male you that is Changed because it doesn't matter if I make say, you know, dr. Oz suddenly decides that Green coffee beans don't cause weight loss It's the overall environment where people are not thinking critically about medicine or other important issues That's important So I've sort of drifted away from the person over the years. It's more of the concepts that I try and Talk about is it the process of evaluating a treatment? Is that where we think a lot of doctors go wrong? So what is your process? Yeah, and understanding Well, I only you start I like to start at the basics and so, you know, what's the plausibility that something's gonna work? You know, will this give an antibiotic has efficacy in the test tube? So it should work for this weird infection I got, you know And then you look for animal studies and clinical trials that show also efficacy But for a lot of it you like to know that it works at a fundamental level that it makes sense at a fundamental level before you start applying it to people and Some things have make no sense at a fundamental level like acupuncture or homeopathy et cetera, et cetera, et cetera They're not their fundamental basis is fantasy kind of depends on your on your perspective your paradigm because Reiki and I've taken courses in Reiki and I'm I've received my attunement. I do not practice Reiki But for those who believe in Energy believe in this aura believe in this spirit being that can be affected by another person's energy There's plausibility Yeah, but there is no energy and if you could I mean I've always said it's been pointed out by others if we can pick up a the power of a of a refrigerator light bulb, which is what the Voyager spacecraft is transmitting so it's out past Pluto It's giving out energy at the level of a Refrigerator light bulb and we can pick it out now I'm a little biased that way my undergrad degree all back in the last century was physics So I spent my days, you know working on what energy is and I'm nowhere near the knowledge base I had back then but there is no energy and there is no Energy that you or I can alter in each other. It does not exist now. There's always just down to how You know Something works or not and the problem with medicine is that it runs counterintuitive to everything we do every day What's the best burger place in Portland? I haven't found I don't eat very many burgers, but I've been found again. Where do you like to go? Well, I mean I like a little big burger. Okay. Why well cuz I tried a bunch of different burgers over the years And I think it's the best burger. What's your favorite beer? Well, I like ESB's and IPA's I like hobby beers. I'm a Portlander. How do I know because I've tried a bunch of different beers and it works for me And that's how what's for my favorite shoes? I always wear marbles Well, I could have tried a bunch of other shoes and they're the most comfortable for my daily walk And that's how we approach everything every day is what worked for us and what people tell us And what's counterintuitive about all medicine is a cannot use that to determine what works for you And there's so much that goes into fooling yourself that something is effective that You can't trust it and I always say the three most dangerous words in medicine are in my experience When it comes to therapeutic interventions because you can't trust yourself How do we how do we control that or how do we prevent ourselves from fooling ourselves? well first is knowledge and Understanding how you can fool yourself and the other is you know, that's why we have randomized placebo-controlled double-blind trials So you take out all the potential bias that could possibly go into determining if something works I mean, I love the acupuncture stuff is that I think the most compelling For that showing bias because once you remove any knowledge that the patient is Getting acupuncture then it works just as well as real acupuncture So twirling toothpicks on the skin if the patient thinks this acupuncture is the same as acupuncture for relief Of what was it knee pain or back pain? Think the German study was knee pain So twirling toothpicks works just as well as real acupuncture. You know acupuncture does nothing If something is equal to a fake procedure that doesn't work, but the active Interf not interfering. Oh kind of getting old Having a relationship with a patient has innumerable effects beyond just What you do? Here's your prescription. I'll take your appendix out Whatever and I'm very aware of how much those social interactions are very important in changing Perspective as to how you hurt when you tell a patient you have an unusual disease and they're not certain and you just tell them I'm not certain, but it's not cancer.  They're very important And most of alternative medicine is having those non-specific effects Feeling better and that's a good thing. It's just being done under false pretenses Right, so we're talking about a form of the placebo effect If what if the only benefit you get is the placebo effect So if you're using acupuncture or homeopathy and the patient does get better Maybe it's only because of your interaction and having someone with confidence that makes them feel better Yeah, and that's why they get better. Yeah, is that a bad thing? Well in current medical practice doing something specifically plus for placebo is considered to be unethical So the key one of the key concepts in medical ethics is the patient has to be informed as to what you're doing And the risks and the benefits they're the boss And if you're doing a placebo if if you're doing it for placebo and you're not telling the patient upfront There's no effort. There's no Sorry, there's no there. There's no evidence to show that X works Is it's a worthless therapy? And I'm gonna do it anyway, which nobody ever does Then you're doing placebo ethically, but if you're not doing without informed consent You're not doing it ethically and placebo outside of clinical trials is considered unethical in modern medicine Even if you have to lie better and still justify the means of is that the right one? Uh-huh. Yeah No, because you're not allowed to lie to your patient And by omission or commission I get that and I'm a lousy liar Yeah, so when I think ahead, you know, yeah, I know that this treatment has been Experienced to work has been observed to work. Maybe not in a controlled trial But yeah, a doctor does this and the patients get better. The Latin doctors are really Really nice guy makes their patients feel really comfortable. I have to wonder is that all that's going on and could I Tell the patient, you know This this therapy doesn't have an effect, but I'm gonna do it anyway because you're gonna feel better That would probably be an ethical way to do it Yeah, it would be interesting that they'd want to pay money for that. Yeah Let's say I just spent an hour you're doing something that doesn't work and you're doing it anyway And I'd give you $120. I don't think that's Gonna go But placebo medicine is not considered ethical in this society You're not allowed to lie to your patients ever by omission or commission. Is that a consensus of just a general consensus of Doctors. Yeah, you know, there's if you go and it's the official Guidelines of ethics. I may have it if you go the Wikipedia page on medical ethics They go through the the main points of medical ethics One of which is that the patient is the boss and has to be informed about what you're doing Honestly you got to tell them what you're gonna do and why and there's always I mean you always How you choose to tell people things always Biases them and you have to be careful about that, you know, if you tell them you have a 30% chance of dying they're gonna be a lot worse than if you say a 50% chance of living I mean how you phrase things is very important and you have to do it honestly with people but Those interactions have a lot of power With people and you have to be honest with people and that's the hard part of medicine Getting back to the controlled trials and and sham versus real treatments We try to figure this out a lot in chiropractic. How can you do a sham adjustment? How could you double-blind a chiropractic treatment? I don't know. I haven't read on that one. I haven't read Yeah, that's not something that I have read in or on so I can't answer that Usually clever people can come up with something that fools people, but I don't know if that's ever been invented the best idea I have is to take a full Term of students teach them sham adjustment with them thinking that it's real and then let them go out and practice and see What happens, but I don't think that would go over very well now something similar was done Which I've always found fascinating Was this guy I forget his name He was a palm reader and he got this amazing results with all his palm reading And then he started giving the opposite reading of everything he saw and Got the exact same Effects from the people he talked to Who was that? But I think that's But I thought that was fascinating how you can convince people you say he everything he saw he told the opposite and And he got the same Encouragement from his his Patience victims I don't know whatever word you choose for some of these two palm reader. Yeah, there's an interesting study that we talked about recently on idiopathic effects I think it's idiopathic. No, no, it's a different word idiomotor where Your Consciously you control what you do what you're the Ouija board Yeah, the Ouija board and so there is a doctor and I I want to say it was here in Portland But I'm not sure that did a similar trial and brought people in and showed them The water dowsing rods showed them the You know the the medallion hanging over the palm and if it goes in a circle that's a yes if it goes in a straight line that's a no and These people came up and tried it and it worked. Yes was yes But then you had a whole different cohort come in and said well if it goes in a straight line That's a yes, and if it goes in a circle, that's a no So you flipped it around but the same results. Yeah fascinating stuff really fascinating how that happens Have you ever been to a chiropractor? No Will you ever Consider going to one? I can't think of why yeah, I Don't have back. I don't have back. I did actually had a C-spy disc for about nine months That was miserable, but eventually it got fixed the old-fashioned way with a knife. Oh, really? Yeah, under surgery. Yeah, best day of my life as I woke up without any Cervical Ridiculopathy you cannot imagine I've had a lot of medical problems in my life, but the one I have sympathy for patients more than any other is Nerve root pain. Mm-hmm. It's there all the time It's miserable. It never gets better. I could never take narks for it because I was working Yeah, and it's just I want a doctor house. Yeah, nine months of misery until it got so bad They fixed it and I woke up pain-free But I don't think I never go I don't see a reason why we need to Do you talk much with chiropractors? Have you ever interviewed one or or discussed?   I mean Okay You can you could be aggressive and belligerent and it serves no useful purpose. It's fun to write that way I mean, you know, there's a great deal of fun and coming up with a Clever way to Say something written, but I'm talking to people. I mean we have a different approach in the world I'm sure and that's fine. I'll be happy to talk with you and I'm always gonna be civil and nice. That's How I tend to try and be you're right is you're writing is very aggressive now You don't pull any punches and just very to the point now And you know if you ask me a direct question, I'll give you a direct answer But I'm gonna be nice about it because I like to get along with people But I've never go to a chiropractor. I don't have a need to and I don't think it would work And if I had low back pain it would probably help But you know, I would probably just do the conservative thing of nothing and lie on my back and take some time Because most get better regression to the mean. Yeah If chiropractic could help with that quicker, would that be enough reason? Yeah, okay. I Don't know if there are any studies that show Show the time frame I haven't read that for a while. It's been a couple years. So it's kind of faded My memory is that it's as good as other modalities for relieving Bet low back pain, but I have to admit I'm my My It's been a while since I've read it and the only stuff I can keep active in my brain is infectious disease stuff Yeah, I mean if I thought I could get me better faster I'd go but I mean I always worry about The very real complications of Someone missing with my spine I mean, it seems to me that things are set up. Okay, relax relax relax There this rupture of a tibial artery now I know that the chiropractic literature denies that that is a problem But my reading of the literature suggests that especially with neck stuff People do get vertebral tears occasionally after this it seems I wouldn't take the risk for What would be marginal benefit for something that would be popping my spine? Is that risk as great as the as the risk of Iotrogenic, you know fatalities in the hospital. I just found another article yesterday. Yeah numbered it at 400,000 a year deaths are Caused by Medical treatment. Oh, yeah. I mean I sit on our quality council and I'm very proud of the work We've done to decrease complications and deaths and in my my hospital system We all since doing a lot of science and evidence-based interventions We estimate in the system. We have prevented over the recent numbers like 250 deaths over the last five years and over a thousand infections By doing all these quality interventions medicine is dangerous and I'm the first to admit that Uh, but also it's always a matter.  If you don't treat it, you're dead If you go into the hospital, you can get into serious problems from what we do with you, but the risk Is greater than the benefit If you have alternative modalities that are equal to chiropractic with less risk just go to a physical therapist and having a Massage, um, I go with that even though it's a tiny risk The hospitals are dangerous places Yeah, I try to avoid them as much as I can. Oh, yeah, I'm in them all day. I know what we can do to people Uh, but I also know all the things we do to prevent things from happening Yeah, but it's not just usually it's just not the absolute death. You have to bear in mind It's the benefit you gain from dealing with very Very dangerous medical conditions And I think we're at least in my school we talk about those risks as well But the numbers that are thrown out are one in about a million adjustments circle adjustments caused vertebral artery dissection And Is that a large enough risk? Oh, what's the benefit? I wonder if it depends on on what you're treating Yeah, I mean having seen big strokes In young people And how devastating it is there are things I would not take a one in a million risk for I wouldn't take a brain insult as a one in a million risk You know, it's just doesn't see oh I remember the one I saw as a girl who overstretched in her yoga class And as she was overstretching she tore her vertebral artery. Oh, yeah, it was a devastating devastating Problem if the risk was You know a little headache. Yeah, but strokes man can take care of a couple of those You know, there's there's certain diseases that know that you don't want to ever have to have as a doctor Because you've seen how devastating and brain insults are just not on my to-do list It's not worth the risk the benefit the many chiropractors claim is that upper cervical adjustments can Can correct many different issues from indigestion to allergies to Well, d.d. Palmer Yeah, just did the cervical neck to cure deaf deafness according to the story. Yeah, that's That's uh, interesting story And I don't know how like if you could tell me how adjusting the neck could cure deafness As a basic principles I would be interested I would too. I'm hoping some listeners can can shed some light on that It's like and many of these alternative medicines have very interesting origin stories kind of like, you know comic books and you know Get bit by a radioactive spider or you see that a bird has a broken wing and something an owl And then you see that something in its eye. Oh, look, there's the birth of iridology In ear acupuncture started because somebody's back pain got better after they Uh, uh burned their ear and he came and he came up with ear acupuncture as a consequence Uh, these don't seem to have a lot of basic principles to guide them if you ask me I would love to know how how adjusting the neck could cure deafness Um, or even if that's true. I don't know. Is that really a true story or is that a powerful? You know, it's repeated so often the the only variation that I heard on it Was a version in which Didi Palmer didn't invite the janitor in and and have this hypothesis of if I adjust here Something might change But rather the janitor was a joke teller and he loved Conversing with the other tenants in the building and Didi was reading a big heavy anatomy book and went out and listened to a great joke That uh that the janitor told and as he was laughing Didi slapped him on the back and said that was a That was a good one and that's when the janitor heard a pop In his neck and the next day was able to hear through that ear again. That's the only other version that I've heard Hi, I don't think many people are going to agree with that that's that's true. So there There are a few you know different versions of how that might have come about but yeah, but yeah He was able to hear again It doesn't just it just doesn't seem like the good basis of a medical intervention I kept looking during our my second quarter of anatomy during head and neck Uh for the nerve that goes from cervical vertebrae up to the ear And I couldn't find it. Yeah Well, I've got a couple quick questions for you. Uh infectious disease doctor you uh, I'm sure have studied a lot of microbiology That's what I'm in right now and oh can't wait to get over with it Well here I'll let you know in medical school. I hated microbiology. Yeah, so I'll go figure. I do it for a living kind of So what is your favorite microbe right now? Favorite. Yeah, it's one I can kill Which is happening less and less now. I always say that if I was a superhero my arch enemy would be staph aureus Um, because that's the one I try and kill most and have the most problems with professionally I don't know if you call if you give it's my favorite because it pays my mortgage And and my kids college tuition then staph aureus would be my favorite It's my least favorite because it caused the most pain and suffering and everything if you see If you had to limit yourself to one topic of debate, whether it's homeopathy vaccines reiki chiropractic the existence of aliens If you could only do one, what would you pick? Ah, so just a question It actually would be and probably this is not quite right but All the different cognitive biases Okay, so that's on the on that process of fooling ourselves rather than the outcomes If I had to pick one that has the most impact on That I think people use the most and has the most literature on it. It would be acupuncture It's amazing of all I have all these google and pub med alert set up to send me updates and acupuncture always is heads and tails more than anything I think it's because china a lot of people coming out of china and china is booming with medical and pseudo medical research So I'd probably pick acupuncture As I said, I've been listening to quack cast for quite a while, but you don't only do quack cast You've got you you're an editor for science-based medicine.org. Yeah, you're right for medline You've got medscape medscape. Sorry. You've got the gabatapas blog and Podcast, yeah, and now you've got the society for science-based medicine That you are helping run. Are you the lead on that? I've been doing me and jan. Uh, I've been doing the lion's share of the work I wrote the website and been doing most of the blogging et cetera on it Jan's doing she's a lawyer Uh, uh, jenna bellamy. She has she's been doing the legal aspects of this sort of thing As a student with like 30 hours 30 credit hours of of load right now I have trouble just you know cooking food.   Uh mac book air with so like I I'm I'm At work when you get a consult you send the resident off to see it the resident works them up and comes to you So I haven't maybe I have an hour to kill while the resident is Seeing a patient. So, um If if I don't have other work to do with the hospital, I'll write something Um, I don't watch tv anymore except for uh blazer games Uh, that's really it. I mean, I don't watch television I had my chair in the living room is sit where I can't see the tv and when the tv is on I just sit there and work and I uh Basically work from when I get up to when I go to sleep Amazing it's fun and I enjoy it, but just I don't have much dead time How much do you sleep per night? I usually go to bed bed 10 30 and get up between six and seven. Oh, that's not bad You're doing better than I am. Oh, you're The older you get the less you can tolerate a lack of sleep I mean, I don't I don't know how I did it when I was in my 20s Because I residency and oh, yeah those people work in 80 hour weeks and double shifts Oh, yeah, I couldn't do that now. So I just keep busy You know, what's your inspiration for a blog post? It's amazing stuff just sort of comes in if you keep it open If you keep your filters open and I have I can say I have uh, uh, google and pub med Um Alerts and then for my infectious disease stuff. It's just what you see every day is mind bogglingly cool I mean, it's it's amazing I've been blogging infects three times a week in infectious diseases Since I think 2008 And I almost never I've very rarely have had to repeat myself that much variety really it's really amazing So you don't you don't ever get bored any thoughts on the uh, this Spread of a polio like Uh disease in california that they've determined not polio or Yeah, I don't know much. I just know about what I read on a medscape. So I haven't heard much about it I'm sure the cdc is all over it, but uh I haven't I don't have an extra. I don't have any special pipelines into knowledge outside of the internet Yeah, that's been interesting. We've discussed that a few times in class Yeah, hopefully they find it Something that isn't coming our way is What was the uh What was the inspiration for fssbm for the society for science-based medicine? Uh basically I think that Well, that's just me, but us and the folks at science-based medicine basically that we're an underrepresented How do you want to say cult? We're an underrepresented cult In the world. I mean if you go to in the in the skeptical world And that stuff there's very little about science-based medicine and there's very few of us who Have an interest in it Compare if you take your average, you know skeptical inquirer There might be an article Harriet Hall writes and in the skeptic magazine You'll see Harriet's but it's you know, bigfoot UFOs and Kennedy conspiracies and all the the big ones and in medicine Most docs are too busy and although the IDSA has a lot of interest in vaccines For example, they don't have a big thing that I've ever found about combating anti-vaccine issues And so I think there's a void in both organization and uh and focus In this area And so I thought we'd start this in an attempt to have better focus on areas of critical thinking as it applies to medicine And it was uh So bringing a group of of skeptics into science-based medicine Yeah, uh more take critical thinking out of our area and into the rest of the world Yes, uh doctors are horrible to organize. So Uh, I thought well, let's just give it a shot and see what happens seems like it's taken off quite a bit Yes, I'm pleased. I'm we figured we get two or three hundred members in the first two years. I think we got 500 Uh, uh people at least 500 on the uh who have registered for the website in a country of 300 million We can go farther, but it's very reassuring. How many followers do you have on twitter? I don't know 600 maybe okay 800 something like that and you you keep track of subscriptions to the podcast No, I am very bad at all those sorts of things I You know, there's a you can have a choice between producing and consuming And I just tend to throw things out there and forget about them, which is not a good way to do stuff Maybe you have try for a relentless self-promotion. Uh, I don't spend I don't twitter enough I I totally do not get facebook Uh facebook tend tattoos Mark me as uh an old geezer because I don't understand either of them Uh, you know, I don't do that. So I tend to produce stuff and throw it out there and just let people do What they want. I don't pay enough attention to that stuff And I should help probably helps keep us sane mind with that and all that stuff Um, I spend a lot of time on on social media probably more than I should especially while I'm in grad school Let me come on But I'm on youtube.  That's how you pronounce his name. Uh, who, um, uh What's nothing to do with sublexations and which energy is it? innate intelligence Yeah, thank you There's so many different terms for these energies.  Uh, and then there's people who, uh, Are strongly anti-vaccine and will treat your asthma with chiropractic and there's a great variety So I you know, we had a friend whose Boyfriend was a chiropractor and he's a nice guy who did reasonable things and it's variable It's like they're goofy at doctors and they're really good doctors They're all right, you know Was it have you seen doctored the movie that came out a year or two ago? Yeah Yeah I think it's in that one that they have medical doctors talking about, you know vaccines cause autism and homeopathies You know my preferred prescription um, yeah It is I appreciate that you say that it is More of the variety of individuals because when I'm in school and I'm sitting next to classmates They're incredibly educated. They are sharp as can be. I mean I can talk about just anything with you know within the medical field or chiropractic or Whatever it might be and astrophysics, you know pick whatever and they have A pretty solid foundation and knowledge in that and so it's difficult for me to You know to hear that chiropractors in general must be diluted I don't think you can do that's why I said earlier. I don't know why people use alternative medicine you can It's what the individual Given individual I don't think you can speak to chiropractors As a whole as anything Because you versus and I'm sure there's that gullible shit for brains who sits in the back Uh, there's certainly I know them in my world They existed all fields at all times unfortunately Uh, education does not necessarily mean critical thinking and education doesn't necessarily mean you're a good person Education just means you're educated and so You know chiropractors are probably as a group that I would enjoy having did Individuals that I probably have a great time having dinner with and people that I'd want to run away from as fast as I could And that applies to every group of people I know As I said earlier, it's not the person from my mind and I kind of keep this in mind. It's the Concepts it's not the sinner. It's the sin And there's great variability in human beings Is evidence-based chiropractic and oxymoron No, the question is do you act on the evidence? You can have evidence-based uh, I well I probably should have said this at the beginning because Harriet Hall tends to write most of the chiropractic Stuff for science-based medicine and since she's always headed me on that I will tell you I should have told you this up front I don't read that stuff as much as I read other areas Because here it's kind of Harriet's um Bigger area of interest and I can do that for whatever reason have fallen more into acupuncture And I tend to be writing a lot about that lately um Uh, uh, what was the question? So oxymoron Oh, so now now the question is is do you then Act on the evidence? And if you got good studies that show something is not effective Do you abandon it? That tins in the alternative medicine world tends to be resistant to change on the basis of evidence Harriet had an article recently where she took An article from somewhere some chiropractic blog on the 10 best papers from the past year Yeah, I remember that yeah, and she discussed each one of them in detail and And explained how this one may not have had a large a large enough sample size of this one came to a questionable conclusion And I would agree that it's difficult to do quality chiropractic research I mean to get a large sample size to blind patients. That's a challenge Yeah, you don't need to put the word chiropractic in that sense It's difficult to do high quality research And everything yeah any kind of yeah, and so you know, I that's if people care enough. It's amazing what it gets done Um, I just have to be a little obsessed about it. I think quality research is possible In any place that sets their mind to it. I mean the nca am our ncc am Funds alternative medicine research someone comes up in a teaching institution with a good It's there. It's just hard and difficult But it's that way for medicine for anything money's tight and research is hard. That's why I don't do it In the money money, unfortunately I think is one of the big factors and in creating a large quality study And that's what's great about the nc cam I think and my school has a study that's just wrapping up We did one on low back pain. We were currently in the process of doing one on cervicogenic headache I think I've heard you say though that the nc cam should be absolved We shouldn't be putting money into alternative therapy research. Well to date they've spent. Oh, what was the sum? I forget a serious chunk of change and showed no benefit show the and you know their um Mandate by the congressman was to show that these things were effective. What's his name? Um The guy who funded it I'm blanking. I don't know who's behind it harkin Senator harkin he got funding for it with the express purpose that it's supposed to show these things have benefit Not to show whether or not they work but to show they did work and they've not shown anything has worked From a scientific method viewpoint, isn't that biased already to say you have to show that it works? But yeah, that's why it's not a good reason to fund an agency So if they had come out and say let's look at whether or not this works. Yeah, and fund it with that purpose Yeah, he was upset because they haven't shown anything works. Yeah, well because it doesn't work. That's life How long has it been funded to my knowledge has it been that long? less than 10 years I'd have to google that. I don't know How long does it take for positive results to come out Uh, you can do most studies in four or five years If you can get enough patience and write them up Uh, what's her name? Eugenie? uh Mazariac I think her name is She wrote a nice article in skeptical inquirer going through all the funding and results of the nccam in the last year or two unfortunately SIA just never puts their stuff online so people can read it Their old school paper Hard to get a hold of yeah Well, I want to wrap it up. I don't want to take too much of your time I want to give you the chance talk to me talk to other chiropractic students. What would your advice be? I don't know Let's let's let's clear I mean, I I think I know what your advice would be to a student who's considering chiropractic But how about a student that's in chiropractic school right now and you know wants to Do their best to be evidence-based to practice based on the science What do you tell them If I say anything I think this is true not only of chiropractic students of anybody is is to understand How bad you think To really understand the cognitive biases confirmation bias to understand that all those ways that we find um Results were nonexist I mean my favorite article my epiphany on that was an article of the American Journal of Medicine Years ago called spiraling empiricism And it was an article on all the different cognitive problems people make medically in infectious diseases To make them think they're doing something and it's a very it's a classic in my world for bad thinking If I were to tell anybody chiropractic student or naturopathic student or medical student Learn how bad you think and apply it to yourself But most people don't do that. That's the problem that I would hope to fix someday I love it. Thank you. Thank you so much for your time. This isn't really been enjoyable to talk with you No problem


In this video, we'll be looking at the factors that affect our conductor's resistance. Here we have a crew drawing, but a drawing nonetheless of a conductor. So we have a length, we've got a diameter here, and we have a type of conductor that we're dealing with. Those are generally the factors that affect our resistance. When we're calculating out the resistance of a conductor, we can use this formula. R is equal to K times L over CMA. R is the resistance. K works out to be the constant of the natural resistance or the resistivity of the wire, depending on what the medium is, whether it's aluminum or copper, would be the two most typical ones that we use. But you can also have brass, cadmium, copper, weld, iron, nichrome, silver, steel, tungsten. There's a bunch of them out there. So that's the constant, the resistivity constant. So that's your K. Length is going to be the length of the conductor in feet, and CMA is going to be the circular mill area of the conductor. So for our K, we're going to use either copper or aluminum. Those are our two most common types of conductors out there. For aluminum, that constant of resistivity is 17. For copper, it is 10.4. So as an example, say this conductor here was 800 feet long of number 16 AWG copper conductor. So we have the length. We have our K, because we know it's copper, so we'll be using 10.4. We don't have the CMA. So what we need to do for that is to go to our table. We go to our table here, and we see we've got our gauge number here. We go all the way down until 16. We move across here until we get to the area in circular mills, and it ends up being 2,583. So now we have everything we need. We know we have an 800 foot length. We have a number 16, which gives us a CMA of 2,583 CMA, and we know that our copper is 10.4 for resistivity. So we plug all the numbers that we know into the formula. 10.4 is our K, 800 is our L, and our CMA is 2,583. Multiply those two, divide it by that, and we get a resistance of 3.22 ohms for that length. So again, the factors that affect this are the resistivity, the length, and the CMA. All these are based on 20 degrees Celsius. In order to determine what your resistance is when you have a rise in temperature, you have to watch the next video on resistance and temperature.