Good afternoon. Hello and welcome to Harlem Hospital. My name is George Laconte. I'm the CEO of Harlem Hospital. I'm proud to welcome all of you, Mayor Eric Adams, all right, Deputy Mayor Ann William Isom, and the President of Health and Hospitals, Dr. Katz. Welcome to Harlem Hospital. Harlem is the largest hospital in Central Harlem, and we've been serving the community since 1987. This wonderful mural pavilion that you're in opened up in 2012 and has continued to serve us very graciously. Without further ado, I'd like to introduce our emcee for the day, Deputy Mayor for Health and Human Services, Ann Williams Eicham. Thank you. Good morning, everyone. How are you? Good morning. Thank you so much, George. I'm upbeat because it is Sunday in Harlem, and so that means that the churches are packed. I just had a really good service. Someone said to me, you have on your Sunday best? Yes, I do, and we are happy to be here. And actually, yes, good morning. Actually, this morning's sermon was about not just talking and the words that we say, but the actions that we have to do, how we live our faith in our actions. Today's announcement is about an angel that lives amongst us and something that someone did for someone else. So it is my pleasure to, I was going to say, we don't really get rest on Sunday if you work for Mayor Adams. It's more like an active rest. So, but I would still like to introduce my boss, the mayor of New York City, Mayor Eric Adams. Thank you. I love that because crises are not resting in our city. It seems as though people say that, you know, your honeymoon period is over. There was never a wedding. We have been going at it since the day we took office with an amazing team doing some amazing things. And one of the crises we are facing, and it's a real crisis, is the mental health crisis. It was a problem prior to the pandemic, and it has just continued to be aggravated post pandemic. And so I want to thank the deputy mayor who has taken upon this awesome responsibility of navigating the team that was put together to deal with COVID, mental health illnesses, and those pre-existing health care crisis that we were facing. The presence of COVID was not, did not mean the absence of some of the crises that we were facing. And so we also want to thank our electives that I hear, real forward thinking elected officials who have been in this line of road, particularly Councilwoman Mercedes Nasees, who was a former nurse, and just continue to lean into these health care issues that we're facing. And Senator Cordell Clear, who represents the village of Harlem, in Harlem, born through and through. Every New Yorker deserves a healthy and productive life. And that's what this announcement is about. Free from anxiety, free from depression, alcohol abuse, and substance issues, and more. And we're just seeing an increase of this as we move around our city. But two years of global pandemic have created a behavioral health and substance use crisis in our city. And it reflected the last time I was here in this space, two officers, Officer Rivera Amara, who were assassinated. Clearly, the person involved had some form of mental health issue. These, those stairs were lined with police officers who felt the impact of the loss and outside to the left. So a countless number of people from Harlem was just looking in to see that devastating impact. And the effects of the mental health crisis we're facing is disproportionately among black and brown communities. But as we say over and over again, superheroes are not only wearing capes, they're wearing white coats. They are nurses and doctors. They are mental health professionals that are the superheroes of our time. They're psychologists and licensed social workers, and they are helping people with trouble lives. And we sometimes forget that because you become a professional, it does not mean that you don't have personal crises as well. The impact of COVID, visiting in the hospital, seeing some of the nurses and doctors and psychiatrists who were dealing with their own crises at home, losing loved ones, the infection of COVID did not skip over you because of your profession. Many of them lost loved ones, they lost family members. While they were in the hospital, they were concerned about at home and they were concerned about infecting their family members. And that's why we're pleased to announce today New York City Health and Hospital New Behavior Health Loan Forgiveness Program. Funded by a million dollar grant from a generous and anonymous donor, it offers $30,000 to $50,000 to student loan forgiveness to mental health professionals commit to serve the New York City public health system. And we just want to thank that donor, all New Yorkers, thank that donor. And it's a seed amount. We're calling on all New Yorkers who at 7pm every night during COVID were giving hand shakes and giving claps to the success of our healthcare professionals. We're calling on them now to go to the website and donate. We should continue to feed this donation for our mental health professionals. Every New Yorker deserves the right to receive behavioral healthcare for the serious mental health illnesses we're facing. And this is a way to do so. And why is it important? Because many of our practitioners have no choice but to work in private sector because of debt after graduating. We're losing so many healthcare professionals. It is reported in one study 30 to 60% a leave each year. The debt is real on average $190,000 for medical school, $80,000 for psychologists, $68,000 for social workers and $56,000 for psychiatric nurses. And they say over and over again they want to serve in the community. We hear it all the time. But the cost of serving in the community in high student loan debt makes it challenging. And this is a tragedy and we expect better from a city like New York. And this donor is clearly stating they observed what the city was doing and they wanted to do their part. And we're asking others to do their part. I'm going to personally make a contribution.  Anyone that had to experience hospitalization or who had to visit a hospital or who had to go and receive a vaccination.  It should not be a barrier because of a student loan. And so with the behavioral health loan forgiveness program, heroes can now get back to doing the job that they love and that's serving the people of this city. Behavioral health concerns can be treated. Alcohol and substance use disorders can be treated and treatments turn lives around. Every time we hear of someone who has gone through some form of treatment, how it has turned their lives around, it really shows you the power of our mental health professionals. It takes people off the street. As we move to our homelessness problem, there's a substantial number of people who are dealing with mental health issues. And it needs to be a combination of having adequate healthcare professionals, treatment facilities and allowing people to return home in their normal lives. Get back to work, get back and reunite with their families and start the process of healing our city. We are grateful to Dr. Kat and H&H for this contribution and this donor. And we want to again encourage all New Yorkers to participate in this donation and continue to watch this part grow. You could donate at New York City HealthInHospitals.org slash BH4 New York City. That's New York City HealthInHospitals.org slash BH4 New York City. Let's get this done. Let's keep our mental health, behavior health professionals here in our city. And again, great work by the team in getting this done. Thank you very much. Thank you so much, Mayor Adams. And so well said, and I was thinking about as we're all going through this collective need for healing. One of the things that can make you feel better is gratitude and giving back. And as New Yorkers, right to step up and do that, I think this is such a wonderful opportunity. It's now my pleasure to bring to the podium the President and CEO of HealthInHospitals, my friend, Dr. Mitch Katz. Hello, everyone. This event brings together so many things that I deeply love.   And this is an opportunity to help those who are struggling. We're at Harlem Hospital, one of the great hospitals of H&H. And I thank George and Philip and all the great clinicians you see here for the work they do every day to save lives. This is an important trauma center, an important place where people get their care. And we're very proud of what the people of Harlem do. And then this amazing gift. So this anonymous donor first got to know our work during COVID, the work of the heroes here, had reached out to us and said, you know, we want to help. And they gave us dollars during COVID for fresh clothing for people who doctors and nurses and other clinical staff who were afraid to leave the hospital with their clothing for fear that they would infect other people. There was no food because all of the restaurants were all closed. And so we would bring in food. People couldn't get here to Harlem and our other hospitals because the transportation wasn't running. So we were able to do Ubers. There were people who had to live in hotels because they had family members who were in danger and they couldn't return home. And so they had helped us at this time. And following the pandemic, they asked, how can we help more? And what I told them, which brings another thread that's very important to me. I said, well, right now, one of our biggest challenges is that we want to expand mental health services. And our mayor has asked us to. Chair Narcisse has talked about the incredible need for mental health services. And I have positions open and I have thanks to my mayor, I have funding, but I can't hire people. They're not in the market for me to hire them. And the people I especially want to hire are people who come from the diverse communities that our hospitals have always served. People who've grown up as immigrants. There are so many doctors and nurses who came to our hospitals as children who came with their parents. And it's a wonderful tradition, but they can't afford to come here because they have huge student loans. So they need to work in places that have, you know, pay more.  And so an important statistic, we do about 20% of the general hospital beds in New York City. We do 55% of the mental health beds. Why is that? Because we do it out of mission. The other hospitals have pretty much gotten out of the business of doing mental health services because they can't, you know, break even. We as health and hospitals, we are a mission-based organization. We do what the community needs.  And with this gift, we will have the professionals to do it. So thank you all for coming. So true. We can't just keep doing the same thing and think we're going to get a different result. So I love that we're trying innovative things and we'll look at the data and we'll see what it says. Right now, I'd like to bring to the podium Adriana Rodriguez-Bosman, who is a social worker here at Health and Hospital, to tell us how this will have an effect on the front lines. I just also want to thank you for coming out in this heat in your like a couple of weeks from giving birth and your little one is here. So for the one and a half of you, come on up. Hi, everyone. Good afternoon. Thank you, everyone, for having me today. My name is Adriana Rodriguez-Bosman, and I am a proud New Yorker, Latina, and a clinical social worker at New York City Health and Hospitals, Gotham Health, Roberto Clemente Center. I got into this work because coming from a family of migrants, I understood what trauma and discrimination looked like firsthand. How broken systems can break the people you love and the community. As a clinical social worker, I provide direct care and a safe space for a largely Latino community to find solutions to their trauma and their pain. You don't become a social worker for the pay. You do it for your dedication and personal mission for the people. We enter this work knowing that there's a huge price hack that comes with it. This announcement today is a critical step forward for workers like myself who have provided support and care to New Yorkers during their roughest times. Growing up, I was told that if I did what I loved, I would never work a day in my life. And for the past seven years, I couldn't be more true for myself. I love what I do and I love working for the city. I'm super proud to call myself a frontline worker to tackling this mental health crisis that New York faces. And this is a ray of sunshine, of hope that we could continue to do this work as public servants. Thank you, Mayor Adams, for having me today. Thank you. It's the 20 seconds, we'll see.  Like, what is that? Everyone's looking cute. Can we just give her one more round of applause, please? Lord have mercy. Very good, baby girl. I would have let you speak. We're going to remember that. We're going to talk about that at your wedding one day. All right. I know we have some elected officials here.  Good afternoon, everyone. First, I have to say thank you. It's still morning? No, afternoon. Thank you for the hospital leadership here. Thank you. And Mayor Adam, what can I say? I'm going to try, you answer, and you'll listen. And that's what we need in our leadership to be able to take action when it's due to take action. In our city, once again, my name is Mercedes Narcisse, and I'm a registered nurse before the city council. And I have the pleasure to represent the 46th District. But prior to that, I was working for Paul J. Cooper. And mental health is real. It's real in our community. Fortunately for some community like ours is a taboo. And we need help. And having to address it today to say that we can give the support we know financial economic is very real, too. You have to pay the bill, even though you love your profession. I work for H&H. And like Dr. Kat said, it has to have the passion and the compassion to serve. And for you, Mayor Adam, and the donor, I am so grateful for that. Knowing that our community can have folks addressing the needs that need to be addressed in our community. Highly skilled profession, you know, is very competitive. Like Dr. Kat said, we need to make sure that our staff are being paid equally. And to have the donor, thank you. You're watching, thank you. The student loans is real. So so many of us cannot pay our rents because of the student loan. To have that forgiveness, believe me, I know because I have four children I have to raise in the city of New York. So thank you. It will alleviate a lot in our community. And we need H&H to provide the best quality of healthcare in our city when it comes to mental health as well. And that's what I applaud you. And I'm going to continue supporting. And Dr. Kat, you know I have your back. We're going to have to continue recruiting, not only to recruit now, we have to return. And this is the best way to return by providing the financial support and the relief that we need. So thank you, everyone, for being here and supporting H&H. Thank you. Good morning. I'm Senator Cordell Clear from the village of Harlem. And I am just so proud. Yeah, that's worthy of an applause. Give it up for Harlem. And even more so, I'm so proud. Those of you who know me know how proud I am of this community.  And that's a heavy, heavy charge that they have to do. You can walk out here in any direction and you can see the evidence of mental illness. We have to talk about it more. We have to address it. We can't arrest our way out of it. We have to treat people. And we have to take care of them. So I am just thankful to the mayor and his team for taking this money and the donor, of course, the generous donor that gave this money for putting it in this direction because it is a struggle. It's difficult to go to school, pay such a high bill and then come and work for the community.  But it's not okay when you're struggling to eat and struggling to live and pay rent. So we're thankful that the money went in this direction. Of course, it's not enough. And we look forward to building on that. But we do have to retain our workers and make sure that they know that they can make a living while they're taking care of so many people in our city. So thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Questions? I'm going to put a few questions. Hey, how are you? A couple of quick things. One, if you don't mind my asking, you're going to make a donation. Can you share with us what you donated? It would be an impressive one. That's the way you donate, too. Dr. Katz, what is the total donation? And what is the cap for each student? Is there a cap on what they, you know... Yes, the donation is a million dollars and the cap is 30,000 or 50,000 per person. Mental health positions do you need to fill? Do you hope to fill? Well, I mean, this gift, as the mayor said, is only part of the solution. I mean, we have, you know, many, many positions that we would fill in the hundreds if we could. But this begins to chip away at that. And I intend it to be on topic. The New York Post has pictures today of people begging on the highway, like on the FDR drive, the Harlem River Drive. Would that behavior fall under this mental health issue? What could you do about that? Let me see that story. There's some money when I read. But we're going to zero in once we see it. We're going to zero in, and it can't happen on the highway. It's dangerous. And we're going to provide people with the services they need. And what we have been doing in a very strategic way, our city is divided by precincts. And every, those precincts are divided by sectors. And so our city is extremely methodical in how we observe things. Every officer on patrol is told to canvas his precinct, his or her precinct, for issues like that. Not to respond because we don't want a heavy-handed police president unless it's a dangerous situation, but to get it back to us so we could use the coordination that Deputy Mayor William Isom has put together. And so if there's an area where there's repeated panhandling on the highways, that should be part of our tracker so that we can get the services there. So I'm going to look at that story, and I'm going to just reinforce every Sunday, we have a conversation that the Deputy Mayor chairs talk about locations like that. So we could put the resources there, mental health professionals there, as well as sanitation there, they clean up our highways. And so we're going to look at that, and if those areas are repeated, then those commanding officers will have to explain if it's not recorded or ready for us. But it is part of the overall approach to meeting people with mental health issues. We have been, we have historically been walking past them. We have been acting like we don't see them. This administration is not going to do that. Yep. Okay, folks, we're going to spare y'all. Thank you. You're all talking. Thank you. How are you, Kimberly? Good. Two questions. Yes. I'm sorry, which one is that? Heat. The heat. Yes, yes, yes. Yep, yep, yep. Actually, we should have did a heat advisory beforehand. I believe we are over a hundred. So I was just talking to the doctor as I walked in to see over the hospital as I walked in to say, are we getting any cases? Are we seeing heat advisory issues? And he stated no. It appears as though through the media and through other notifications, people are taking the notice seriously. We only have one heat related death that was reported thus far, but we open the cooling systems. And so I believe people are really responding. Like this place here is cool here, but there's a lot of cooling centers that are available. And so we're not seeing a medical crisis because of the heat. I'm sorry. Yeah. Which way? They're going to organize soon. We're going to be up there and some of the neighborhood replication process. Yes. We have a cannabis task force because Albany passed the legislation. And there are a lot of desires to get it right. Other municipalities have not gotten it right. And what we want to do is to show the opportunities that are available, helping with the licenses. We allocated a few million dollars through our small business services to really coordinate with all of those in this industry so that we can get it right. Because there's a real, you can't have an illegal operation when there's a legal operation. And if you don't coordinate correctly, it's going to defeat the entire purpose. And so I'm not familiar with the senators doing in the Bronx, but we're forward thinking and as we put together amazing task force, we had a meeting with approximately 100 people in the industry, and they're breaking into sections so that they could have tables around different areas of the cannabis industry. This is new for New York State. Many people have attempted to do this in other municipalities and they have failed. They have not dealt with the legacy, not dealt with those who were previously unfairly targeted. We don't want to do that. We want to get it right and we put money behind getting it right and we want to assist people on how to start these businesses. But, you know, we all know the ideal of opening a business is different from running a business. And we want to make sure people get good sound business instructions. That's our goal. How are you? You talked a lot last week about the increased population coming into the homeless shelter system. What is the excess capacity like in that system? And can you talk about like what are you doing to add beds and how many additional beds are needed? Number one, this is an opportunity for New Yorkies to move away from not in my backyard. We all must share the crisis. Our approach has been to divide up the homeless issue even prior to the asylum seekers by councilmatic districts.  And we said let's partner together as we deal with this New York problem. These are our neighbors and we have to identify as a council person, partner with us and tell us where would you like to shelter in your district, particularly those who had little or no shelters. Now with this influx of people seeking asylum and support, now we have to go beyond that. We're looking at the potential of emergency shelters in hotels and other facilities. We want to get our faith-based community involved. If there was ever an all hands on deck moment, this is it. Our system was inundated with those who were seeking shelter because of the callousness of those other states that pushed them out. We're here, we're receiving them and everyone is going to have to be on board and we can't have the historical, I believe people should be housed but just don't house them on my block. Everyone's block is going to be impacted by this. And so we have to add our advocacy with our ability to help our neighbors and we need everyone on board with this because as I stated last week, our schools are going to be impacted, our healthcare system is going to be impacted, our infrastructure is going to be impacted but we're willing to do our job and we're going to do our job and we're going to need all New Yorkers to be with us on this. Mr. Mayor of the World Health Organization said that monkeypox is now, I think the words they use was global emergency. Does that change anything with how we're working with that problem? Of the Deputy Mayor communicated with the Commissioner of the Department of Health to determine what is our step of also how we're going to designate it here in the city. Every skill I've ever acquired is coming to play right now. I mean from monkeypox to COVID to asylum seekers, this is a moment where leadership matters. I think the Creator knew we were going to have a difficult time so she made sure I was there at this time. I'm prepared for this moment. I built a great team. We are meeting these challenges as they come and I'm just thankful that I'm here to serve this city and the entire team, my five women Deputy Mayors have led from the front and I never hear them complaining. They're always coming up with new ways of solving the problems that we face and monkeypox is a problem. We vaccinated several New Yorkers. We received, because of our advocacy, we received a thousand more. We had the overwhelming number of cases, but we were not receiving the proportionality of the number of vaccines. The White House heard us getting the vaccines here. Almost 90% of the cases in this state is in New York City. And so this is once again, we're the epicenter again of dealing with monkeypox and we're going to meet the challenge and move forward with it. Thank you. Thank you all.


Mike Roberts, ICANN's first CEO from 1998 to 2001. Mike, thanks for taking the time to talk to us. Peter Dengate Thrush said that ICANN was referred to as the ICANN experiment in the early days. Is that the way you saw it? I think most of us did in some form or another. You have to remember that the model for ICANN didn't exist. The blueprint was in the white paper. And somewhat reluctantly, people all over the world signed up to that, which didn't mean they loved it. So it was really up to the first board, the first nine members that had been recruited from around the globe, and to some extent to the staff, to me and my helpers, to make us credible and make that experiment turn into reality. When you say my helpers, how bad was the staff? You and who else? Well, I was extremely fortunate that our agenda. People ask, well, what were you supposed to do? In some sense, we were supposed to carry out the mandate of the white paper. But more directly, we were supposed to pick up several really nasty, intractable policy issues that the government managers hadn't been able to make any headway on. What might? The trademark community was in a state of great upset. And as you know, because they're very closely tied to the Hollywood and the big time media, their lobbyists were pounding on the Congress and on the White House all the time about cyber squatting and this awful damage that the internet was doing to their business.  So one of the very first thing we had to do was to take up this thorny issue of the relationship of trademarks to domain names and do something about the cyber squatting. What I'm hearing you say is they simply had a heavy lobbying influence with those governmental entities. Well, they did. And there was reality behind that because some of the nastier cyber squatters were really doing damage to legitimate American brands. So how many people did you have working with you at the time? Molly Van Holling, who's gone on to a distinguished legal career and who was in a gap year before she clerked for justice suitor on the Supreme Court, agreed to be my senior policy person. And she was a Harvard Law distinguished Harvard Law graduate who is now a distinguished member of the Berkeley Law Faculty. And by the way, a world champion biker, woman biker. Behind her came Louis Tutan, who at the beginning was at Jones Day, but subsequently came to ICANN as general counsel for a dollar a year. And then Andrew McLaughlin, who was another young Harvard Law graduate who had policy written all over him. A dollar a year. At the beginning, that's in addition to the IANA staff who had their own plate full of operational matters. That's all there was. So a very tiny group of people was the foundational structure of ICANN. That's true. What'd you do for money? Money was a persistent issue. I'll give you where we ended up. And where we ended up was an annual domain name fee, which is assessed by the registrars and remitted to ICANN. But my understanding, and correct me if I'm wrong, my understanding was there was a time lag between the time that you guys started your work and when that actually occurred. It took over a year. So in that year's period of time, what were you doing for money? There was a collection taken up by a group of interested corporations in Washington that had been advisors to magazineer Roger Kuchetti from IBM, who was IBM's chief lobbyist in Washington, was very helpful. Vint Cerf, who was mostly a senior technologist for his company, Vint has done everything in the internet, as you know, from your interview with him. But he also helped gather the forces and get some money flowing. And they committed the best part of $1 million. And after quite a while, we got some of that money. You have to remember that the way that charitable donations work in the United States is that the target organization has to have what's called a 501C3 letter from the government. And you don't get that right away. Ours took nine months. So in the meantime.  Yes, a charitable nonprofit. So in the meantime, when the people directly trying to help us went to their corporate people to get a check, they said, what's their 501C3 number? And there wasn't any. So they managed, and IBM helped a lot, with $100,000 unrestricted check and others fall in. So finally, by the spring of 99, we had some money. But before that, nobody built us. Everybody put their bills in a accounts receivable basket and my checking account and my credit card and some other things paid the bills. So wait a second.  Well, for instance, Molly and Andrew and I never got a paycheck for six months. And you're putting forth money of your own funds to get things going, right? That's right. We believed in it. We believed in the experiment. We believed that this, you have to remember that the internet bubble, we were right in the trailing edge of the bubble, but everything was in a very go-go atmosphere. And this was an opportunity to put some private sector public interest stamp on all this commercialization. Did you feel pressure to make it work? Oh, yeah. But I wasn't a newcomer to pressure. I've been a university CIO, which is a very tough job. I've been the designated guy for research university networking for 10 years in Washington. ICANN, my impression is that, and correct me if I'm wrong, my impression is ICANN was very much a sort of the foundation going past the green papers and the white paper. All of that generated with Ira. The way that Vendor's called the father of the internet. Is it a fair description to say that Ira Magazine or the Clinton aide was the father of ICANN? Yes and no. Ira did a great service by being the White House guy who chaired the committee that had all of these rough-edged agency people in it, most of them from the research side of things, a few lawyers, a few NIST people. Ira essentially forced them to make peace over the green paper and the white paper, which had a lot of things in it that Ira alluded to that the research agency managers didn't think a lot of. For example? The whole idea of mandating things like competition in a domain name space, bottom-up management. This was not their cup of tea. Let's deal with that for a second, Mike. How do you get by in the typical corporation? Policy is set by the board and it filters down. You've got this funky new concept where you've got a bottom-up policy formation structure where the ICANN community is making policy and it's going up to the board. Was it difficult to get acceptance for that model because of its uniqueness? I have to digress a little bit. After the IAHC meeting in Geneva, which is a seminal moment, the white paper was out there. A lot of people who complained bitterly about the green paper stopped complaining and signed on. All the big players were in Geneva, even though it was this ad hoc meeting. I was there. Becky was there. John was there. I was there. People like Larry Landweber from the academic networking community were there. So by the end of that meeting, everybody said, well, we need to do this. And what happened next was people started asking questions, saying, well, the white paper doesn't say how to do this. How are we going to do this? And of course, by throwing the ball in the court of a private sector nonprofit organization, that crossed up people who thought their private scheme, their own personal favorite scheme, would go somewhere. So one of the key moves was that Joe Sims from Jones Day offered pro bono to help John put it together. He sat down with John.  That's not what this has to be. We have to put articles of incorporation together. We have to have bylaws. We have to find a board of directors of suitably senior people of a global diversity. So July and August of 1998 were really in my world because I was enlisted as a helper. I had just finished being a startup guy for the internet to consortium, which needed many of the same things. So that's how we spent July and August was making the concept in the white paper into a real organization. With the unexpected death of John Postell, how did that affect the direction, growth, and structure of the organization, if at all? Yes. By the beginning of September, one of the other curves that we got thrown, which wasn't in the white paper, was that the government lawyers decided that the agreement with us could not be a sole source agreement. And so what does that mean exactly? Well, under the code of federal relations of relating to contracts, the normal practice is there has to be demonstrated competition. This is sort of an article of faith. The government deserves a proper competitive bid on its work. So the white paper implied that once the government meaning NTIA really came to agreement on the details that the selected organization would be off and running. So what the announcement about no sole source meant is that John's group had to throw a proposal over the transom at NTIA and any other interested party that wanted to compete for the business, if you will, the ICANN business, had to throw their proposal in the hopper, too. That meant, of course, that everything had to be a lot more definite than was implied by the white paper. So it sounds like what I'm hearing is the white paper was sort of the frame, but you guys had to fill in everything? A lot of blanks, a lot of blanks. And John's role ended up never being defined. I think Joe assumed, a lot of people assumed, I certainly assumed that John would end up being a CEO. But behind the scenes, it came out later that John had told Joe he didn't want to be the CEO. Joe wasn't very happy about that because he didn't think that the initial board was going to be very equipped to do an executive search. Why didn't John want to be the first CEO? He saw himself as a PhD research guy, not as an executive. And frankly, he didn't have a lot of admiration for the commercial side of the domain name business. Let me ask you this question. Postel is kind of universally accepted as a sort of nonconformist, if you will. Charismatic, long hair, sandals, the whole thing, which brings to mind the question, at the time that ICANN was born, it was coming on the heels of Watergate, a lot of distrust and authority. And a lot of you guys were children of the 60s. You were children of that. How much of that influenced the sort of structure and being that ICANN became? Ultimately, an organization like ICANN, especially technology nonprofit, is built on trust.  An interesting statistic was there were 23 million domain names when we started. And today, almost 20 years later, we're headed towards 500 million. So how were you possibly going to write bylaws that scaled to that different world? We had to leave things as flexible as possible and we did. Someone mentioned to me that ICANN works because people believe it should work. Is that an oversimplification? Yes, although we took a lot of heat on a lot of different fronts from people that were not inclined to trust us because the model, telecommunications worldwide, the divestiture of AT&T was only 12 years old, 82 to 96. And so there was a big hangover of the way you do these things is you pick a chosen corporation and put them under regulation. And tell them how to run their business. That was, you know, we were 180 out from that model. But certainly inside the Beltway, there were lots of people that thought that ICANN should be run that way. Here you are, heading of your CEO, the first CEO of this funky organization, the likes of which had seldom been seen. You don't have a hell of a lot of money to play with. Definitely. What kept you awake at night? The university community where the internet was incubated. Certainly, Sirf and Kahn and Crocker and the early technical pioneers came up with the protocols on which it's founded. But in terms of making a market and demonstrating that this crazy open source suite of protocols would work, it was done in the university community with NSFnet. The internet went from having fewer than 500 nodes in 1985 at the end of the ARPANET period to more than 1,000 by 1989, almost all of them in the university community. So it was that community that really believed in this. To some extent, they believed in the initial board. And they believed in people like Louis and Andrew and Molly and myself. But what did you fear? Did you fear, again, what kept you awake at night? I was very concerned that our legal vulnerability would lead to some sort of a loss of faith on the government side and it collapsed back into essentially a government run corporation. That was always a possibility. In other words, if the ICAN experiment had failed, yes. It's back to the US government. People might have argued about that. But if you think about it, the Congress and the Bush administration by that time were not about to allow any other outcome. How much of a problem was it with the change in presidential administrations? We were very fortunate that by and large, and especially because of 9-11 and because of Iraq, the attention of the administration. Day to day, the White House lived and died over that war and over the steps that were taken to strengthen our own homeland's security. So wait a second. You're saying the plus was that you weren't on the radar. That's right. And we were also fortunate that Becky's successors, Becky Burr, as the director of NTI, Larry Irving, was, of course, shared a Stanford background with me. We had a lot of good handshakes. And he was very supportive of the ICAN model. And Becky was his second in command and really had the ball to work with us to make an ICAN go. But to answer your question, it was her successors that maintained a light touch. As long as we sort of followed the game plan, paid attention to the bottom up, kept working on molding the support organizations into a wider model. And in effect, in the beginning, I think Becky said this to you, we didn't talk about multi-stakeholderism. In the beginning, it was sort of bottom up was the byword. But we did this lateral arabesque into a more generalized, supportive, multi-stakeholder environment. John had the idea that the initial board would not be able to be trusted to do the right thing. Here's this researcher and the guardian of the protocols looking at recruiting effort that was grabbing evil hither and yarn from around the gourd. So in the bylaws, he made sure that Joe gave a very powerful role to these three support organizations, one for protocols, one for domain names, and one for numbers. It turned out that model didn't work. And in fact, it didn't even last a year before it was being subverted into a more generalized, more broadly supportive participation. And I definitely need to make the point that the reason that evolution worked was because of the willingness of so many people on a global basis to step in and do hundreds thousands of hours of volunteer work. If you ask what made ICANN model work and the analysis in the latter day analysis, it was all that voluntary help. Mike Roberts, thank you very much for taking the time to talk to us. You're very welcome.


فشرف بالاشتغالي بالعلم ولا تبغي به ما عشت يا دادا دالا وياله من شراف عظيمي ولكن إذا كانت الشخص who's recitation is not good they remember they may cause others to not be focused among the highest predecessors were those who would request from them to recite the Qur'an while they and themselves listen فأم مرحباً يقولوا أن يمكننا أن يرقب القرآن لنا لكي يتبقى إصلاحك هذا يمكنك أن تكون ممتاز لأنه من وصال الله سبحانه وتعالى قد جاءك لنرقب إصلاحك، يمكنك أن ترقبنا لذا يمكننا أن نقوم بقرآن ونشعر القرآن هذا جيد أنه يجب أن هذا شيء مرحباً وأنه يجب أن يكون مصر من الممتع وأنه يجب أن يكون مرحباً فهذا هو شيء الذي يقوله إنه أعادة متفقون على استعبابه وهذا يجب أن تحدي من أنه بحق الجزء وهذا هو عادة الأخير والمتعبدين والعباد الله الصالحي هذا هو الأنس من الدي كانت أخيره السلاحية والطلالة واللغاء هذا هو ما كانوا يفعلون هو سنة ثابتة عن رسول الله عليه الصلاة والسلام ولماذا تستخدم سنة منه؟ المسجد عليه الصلاة والسلام ألي بخارب يرزه وَأَبْضُوا اللَّهِ وِنَسْخُولَهِ وَنَيْهَى وَالْلَا أِنْ مَنْسَدْ وَالْنَسْنِجْرَهْ وَاللَّهَسْتَ اللَّهْوَالَهِ وَالَا أَعْلَهِ وَسَدْمْ فِتَنْ وَأَرْسَدْتَ فِتَنْ وَأَنْسْنِجْرَهْ وَاللّهِ هل أخبرتك when it is upon you about the Qur'an? فإن يقول، أردت أن أرى من أحده لذلك أرسلت سورة ونساء until I reached this verse How will it be then when we shall bring from each nation a witness and bring you, O Muhammad, as a witness upon these people The Prophet then said, that is enough And then when I turn to him I can see that tears were flowing from his eyes The Prophet ﷺ said to So this is the evidence from the Prophet that you can ask somebody to read the Qur'an for you That the Prophet ﷺ said to Abdullah bin Mas'oot He said to him أقر عليه القرآن, read the Qur'an to me فقلت يا رسول الله, he said أمزني الله أقر وعليك وعليك ونزل I'm going to read the Qur'an on you And when the Qur'an came down on you Like the Qur'an came on you So shall I read on you And this shows you that the humbleness of the Prophet ﷺ He took the companions of the Qur'an And how to read the Qur'an But after that he wanted to hear their recitation And he liked Abdullah bin Mas'oot's recitation And the scholars they took a chapter from this In مصطلحة الحديث which is called رواية الأكابل عن الأصاير This is where that chapter comes from That a teacher narrating from a student That there's a chapter in the hadith Which that a person who is high can take from a person who is low He can So the Prophet ﷺ he said I love to hear it from other than myself Then Abdullah bin Mas'oot started Surat al-Nisa He started from the beginning And he read until he came to this statement of Allah فكيف إذا جئنا من كل أمة بشهيد وجئنا بك على هؤلاء شهيد يومئذ يود الذين كفرو وعص ور رسول لو تسوى بهم الأرض ولا يكتمون الله حديثا فإذا جئنا من كل أمة بشهيد وجئنا بك على هؤلاء شهيد When he came to that ayah The Prophet ﷺ said to him sufficient enough Don't read anymore Abdullah bin Mas'oot said فلتفت إليه I looked at the Prophet فإذا هو عيناه تدرفان His eyes were watering ﷺ was crying The reason why he was crying Is because the ayah was saying فإذا جئنا من كل أمة بشهيد If we come with every nation We are testifying And we bring you Muhammad ﷺ Testifying against them They will testify against you And you will testify against them So they will be asked If Muhammad conveyed a message to you The fact that the people will be asked And he knows he did But he's still scared So he cried ﷺ And daddy And others narrated أحمد رضي الله عنه He used to say to Abu Musa Al-Ashari ربنا ربنا Remind us of our Lord الله ﷺ And how would he remind them of Allah ﷺ He would remind them by reading them How would he do it By reading them By reading the Qur'an That's how he would remind them That's how he would remind them That's how he would remind them That's how he would remind them هناك الكثير من المعلومات عن هذا السؤال إنه يتعلق بأن أحد الأخبار الذين يموتون باستخدام القرآن أن أحدهم يساعدون أن يرسلون أحد منهم هناك أحدهم يساعدون أن يرسلون أحدهم وأن المعلومات التي يموتون بها يفعلون كثيرا أن أحدهم يموتون هذه all shows that it is permissible to ask somebody to read the Quran for you especially if the person has a good voice the reason why أعمار would ask him to read is because of his voice his voice was very good ل听 that some scholars recommend that the study circles in which the prophet in peace is being taught should be begun and ended with a recitation from someone with a beautiful voice. Some scholars they said the word is like the idea that when a gathering is started that verses of the Quran be used. مثلما when you come to some lectures they say let's open with Quran إن شاء الله و تعالى and they open with verses of the Quran مثلما جامع الإسلامية مدينة when the Mashaikh come and they're doing a talk for the students you always see some student comes up and he recites Quran for them and then the lecture it starts from there و يسأل و قد استحب بعض العلماء و يستفتح مجلس حديثة رسول الله عليه وسلم و يختم بقراءة قارئة حسنة سوتي but the person who has been tricked here is a person who has got a beautiful voice ما تيسأل من القرآن and he reads what he can from the Quran now I'm always going to mention if you're that person who has got a good voice and you're requested to go up and to do a what recite verses from the Quran that you shouldn't just recite any random place now you should choose the most appropriate verses for that particular moment that you're being requested to read for now he mentions them and in such instances it is important that the reciter recites that which is appropriate for the purpose of the gathering so whatever the purpose is imagine you go to a Nikkah and they ask you to read and you say and you start talking about جهنم وسيق الذين كفروا إلى جهنم أزومراء you're like wow brother this is a day where people are trying to enjoy themselves getting married it's a joyful day and you talk about جهنم it's lack of hikmah why are you there for stop I don't know if you should stay there read the Quran you could do so you could but in a wedding to bring جهنم and mention it that's something you enjoy doing لا لا لا it's best that you do what you do is you read what's better is that you read ayat of marriage these are verses you know marriage and wife and spouses and Allah brings compassion between you guys are you there even then when it's a wedding don't read the Quran for too long have another hikmah don't just keep going on and just going on and the next page turn over it's not wise ولي ذلك عبد عزيز من عبد الله بن باز عليه رحمة الله they came to him God was Shaykh بن باز was wise it's a hikmah they came to him and they told him to do a little reminder in a wedding what did they say to him they told him Shaykh do a reminder in the wedding and then Shaykh realized because it's a wedding people come for eating enjoying themselves Shaykh just said invite me when the عقيخ is happening just invite me when the عقيخ when he left you know what عقيخ is when a baby comes you know and he cares kind and your little gathering might happen just invite me then and he left he said I want to do a talk it's not the right place it's not the right place for it okay if it's a gathering pertain to for example youths and youngsters are coming here then you should you should read verses what about maybe then if people that you're dealing with in front of you are people of dunya businessmen and they're dunya fight and they're just too much in the dunya you know you know you know you know you know you know you know you read these verses for them dunya is nothing it's going to go it's going to perish this is all going to go right you get those verses of dunya for them are you with me so you look at the position that you're in and you do that sisters in their own gatherings can they do that for themselves no within themselves they can read beautify their voices for each other they choose the sister who has the best voice and they tell the other one sit back and they listen to her recitation okay and she recites and reads for them and again she observes the situation that she's in now so you look at the place if the place is a place where you feel like these people are full of hope they have to hope if you feel like these people are already scared they are on a brink of giving up in life they're suicidal you don't be I have to abandon them again these people want to kill themselves they already feel like the sinners they've done too much sins Allah is not going to forgive them you don't talk to them about Nahr and Adab and throw them off you give them hope you give them hope you bring the verses of hope that Allah loves you Allah wants to take you to Jannah Allah wants to forgive you for your sins that's what you say to the people are you with me some people have given up in life they've looked at themselves and they said I'm a criminal I'm a sinner I'm not going to go to Jannah Allah is going to have mercy upon me it is not wise for you to bring the verses of Adab to them lack of حكم you can bring them Ayat of hope صح نعم just as it is important that you that the mercy he recites through a bowl around that ammunition that he is taking from the bottleneck and entitlement towards the hereafter the temporality of this world and the lack of demands and behavior so all of those are things that you need to observe whose Quran are you which gathering are you are you in you need to observe that if the reciter begins with his recitation from the middle of the chapter or stops at a point at the end it is important that he starts at a point where the context will be clear and that he stops at a point where the related verses are also stopped here the author talks about a مسألة called this is one of the hardest things that people get around it's a very strong chapter in the Quran where you stop some people they stop in bad places that the whole meaning goes deficient the whole meaning goes different it becomes a whole different meaning so you're not allowed to stop in that particular place if you do stop and you pick up from it again then what happens is that the meaning actually changes fully now so all of it is based on the relationship between the verses some people now don't know the meaning of the Quran so how can they overcome this problem then listen to a very well-known qari and that's it you memorize it the way he reads it so you learn how to do the وقفن امتداء but if you know the Quran then what you need to do is you need to observe that now for example he's going to give you so many examples here right now are you the following are examples of verses that begin past are you absent at the top yeah قلاء قلاء قلاء whatever it's called صلى this truth it tells you now these are examples okay are you are you are you are you are you are you شيئين دأحالهم في المواقف عن وصول النوعaciones مع السلوة والواقف where you stop and where you pick up from. Those are just examples that the author gave. رحمه الله متعالى. It is therefore not suitable to begin or end a recitation with these verses as they are linked to the verses before them and one should not be deceived by the numbers of reciters who do not take this into consideration. Pay attention to this قاعدة that no one is going to give you. So pay attention. He tells you first what he says to you Stop or start here. Okay good. Because the verses are connected and what you're doing is you're disconnecting the verses. So you shouldn't do that. Then some people are going to be like Oh but شخصوه and so does it. And this is a common thing that people do. Now where we give you قاعدة. This concept you need to memorize. Which is بكثرة تلفعيل. Never get deceived by the large amount of people من القراء الذين لا يراعون هذه الأداء. Don't ever be fooled by the majority. And say oh because the majority are doing it it must be right. And you guys are minorities so you're wrong. That's incorrect. The religion of Islam is not based upon number. The large amount are here. The small are here. So the large are right. And the small are wrong. He's telling you here. Don't get fooled by the majority. Don't. No. Should not be deceived by the numbers of reciters. You do not take this into consideration. And especially do not contemplate the meanings of what they are saying.  This principle. Which is not to be deceived by the majority. He says This is a course and I want to take that advice and raise it by the happiness of Abdullah Abdullah with his chain of narration from the eminent Fudail Ibn Iyad may Allah have mercy on him. Look what Fudail Ibn Iyad said. The great noble eminent scholar. Look what he said regarding this concept of following the majority because the majority are doing it. And since it's a lot of people who are doing this it has to be right. He said Do not feel lonely when upon the path of guidance because of the scarcity of those who might and do not be deceived into following the scores of those who are destined to be doomed. And do not be discouraged by the scarceness of those who strive towards their lower and lower. Look what he said. He said Do not be. Don't find loneliness and feel like I'm alone by myself. I'm alone by myself. I'm alone by myself. I'm alone by myself. In the path of guidance because the people who are with you are literally number. Don't. And never be deceived by thinking to yourself that you're upon the truth because the majority are with you. And one of the sad things that people will say today is that Islam is the truth. And you say really? How so? And they'll say to you because it's the fastest growing religion. Really? Do you think Islam is the truth because it's the fastest growing religion? Do you guys believe that? I'm asking a question. If you ever connect your reason to something then you can't leave it later. Does that make sense? Are you with me brothers? You guys have now said or whoever says that Islam is the truth because it's the fastest growing religion. Okay. So what about if time comes and Islam becomes the slowest growing religion? Are you going to say that Islam is wrong? I'm asking a question. So why are you using it in your favor when you want it and you're not using it now that it isn't? So no, no, no. Islam is right regardless of whether it's the fastest growing religion or whether it's not. It doesn't matter. It is the true religion. It's the true religion because of its arguments and its points. It's the true religion because of its evidences and the حجج that it has come with. Not because it's the fastest growing religion or because 1.6 billion people in the world are Muslims. Are you with me? That's not the case. Okay. So we don't look at something based on numbers. This concept that there's something is right because the majority are on it is incorrect. Sometimes the majority can be right and sometimes it can be wrong. But the majority of the times the majority are wrong. The overall times when you look at it who is it that once Allah praised it سبحانه وتعالى إنه قرآن وقليلون من عبادية الشكر. Little of my slaves are very the other ones that express gratitude to Allah سبحانه وتعالى. صح. Allah says وإن تطر أكثر لمن في الأرض يُدِلُّك عَسَبِينِ اللَّه If you follow the majority of the people they will what? They will misguide you from the straight path. So never ever think to yourself that something is right and something is wrong based on number. Look at the proofs. Look at the evidences. Look at the arguments that are built forward and base it on that whether it's right or wrong. Now. To this end سكوز of states that is better to recite a complete short chapter than to recite a part of a long chapter that is equivalent to an end to the shortest chapter as the connection between the verses may at times not be noticed. Even if we know who is narrated with He talks about a mess which is that which one is better to read a short صورة in its complete in its complete in its completeness completeness Is it completeness or what? completeness Can you say completeness and add that suffix to it? ذكريس said yes. Yeah? Double check. William Shakespeare. Is it right? No. Okay.  That's what he is saying right now وقدل هو وقدر هو بنا بداوضي بسنادي عن عبدالله عن عبدالله عبدالله يقرأوا بعض الأيات و يتركوا بعضها يجب أن يتبقوا فيها يجب أن يترى بعض الأسلحة من الغراء فهذا يفضل أن يتخذ one صورة و يجب أن يتخذها كلها بشكل صورة و instead of taking a big صورة و choosing and choosing part of it سنوقف هنا إن شاء الله و تعالى بإذن الله الكريم هل يوجد أيضاً أيضاً؟ سأكمل هنا إن شاء الله و تعالى سبحانك الله و بحمدك أشهد أن لا إله إلا الله ستوفيروك و أتوه إليه


I'm sorry.  It's burnt to a crisp.  How convenient two motorcycles I'm looting I'm looting Rest must have taken helmet.  Trauma trauma. It was basically a metal slug Yeah, this is so it's contra metal slug I feel like it's metal metal slug when country it just feels a lot like metal slug like you're picking up weapons And they get replaced by the power up. You know what I mean?  Oh, I try to push it all to four because I was thinking about oh my gosh, dude I hope that Ford Dude, when did I save when was the last time I saved? I hit all the four cuz I was gonna get out of that game Oh, thank God.  She's gone I'm sorry the whole place is covered in blood. Have you checked her pulse?  How this happened? told you And he was lying in bed like always When I went out and I got back to if I just known I don't blame yourself Won't solve anything. I should have sent something that it was off Stop couldn't watch your 24-7. She made up her mind Would have found a way Always gotta do something with her don't want any trouble. I'm calling the badges I shouldn't move her. Not sure we should move her before the badges get here.  I need to report an accidental death Northside Jackson Street No No imminent danger Suicide No today What will come get her tomorrow? No, she was not pronounced dead by trauma team if she'd have had coverage.   Sorry. No can do Cheapskate you could get hooked again. I don't want that on me V.   Do you want to hold on to it? You seem to like it keep it I don't smoke kind of glad it's you that has it actually my deepest condolences my deepest gratitude was a fine boy V It's good. You're here. We're about to start. I Often think back to the first time me and Jack met feels like it happened a century ago And another time In another place Jackie saved my life and then years later in Night City He saved it again At a time when I thought I'd lost absolutely everything I found my own freedom then But it would not have happened without him Jackie Wells Thank you for your kind words V I'm glad you're here. It was a beautiful friend that we gave him A lot of people come today Even that put the god Jackie was messing around with True her name is Misty What I know that means and she was very important to him.  Go invite her along for dinner It's the least she deserves You know what?  Thank you. I'll take such good care of it We that they be nice. Wait, is that the bike wait Ernest Hemingway Nemet has seen met wait Hemet Nessingwary Wait, they stole this from all the four craft Why can't the cops understand? Megan just had a stroke. Where are you going? Hmm cops Last warning cops.   Why me? I didn't do nothing All nearby units. We got a situation in Watson Roger dispatch. What else? We'll be right there What the heck has been located details have been sent It's burnt to a crisp.  What the heck was that?  Look at this car. Oh, excuse me officer. Oh, I can't drive it Fire dragon spamming question marks It's a fire tree Stuff like that makes the game better. I don't care what anybody says dude Still like that makes the game better 100% it's so as long as the game is not like crashing it like bricks playthroughs and stuff That kind of stuff you you like you should totally keep that big game like I'm here with Pan Amps We're gonna get you out. As you saw I'm here with Pan Am Pan Amp She left Not forever Gonna get you out. I remember You're that murk. Can you walk in your walk? Can you walk in your own?  Seems not bad at all The man did a cigar and some companions.  We're gonna be a category five. I know Gosh critical headshot.  I've had two Right at the end of the mission Wait to have your character is naked. Can you run around? You just see his wiener flopping around all the time No, okay Why do you ask I was wondering also is there wiener physics? The fire of 23 was just the beginning They are my people you're here. Apparently you guys know the way in Miss told you would Yeah garage in the back Ellie stop wasting time Why you getting bored? It makes you do this.  I always die like this That was an accident. Oh, no, dude. Dude. I accidentally threw a grenade. I was trying to mark them Okay, now to the second floor the cinema. Did you want to know what's funny? I thought I thought you played as johnny silverhand in this game. You paid what you paid What's going on that bad laugh? Why are you guys pep it laughing? She must have a weak spot The k rose Totoro and meleis is like Did she even touch me? Our and her t-pose are misunderstood.  Well Now we can talk in private Just severed the connection to the rest of pacifica gives us a little time All right, then let's hear it Had a specter on you didn't you saw and heard all you did you followed these orders No idea what the voodoo boys are paying you but our pockets are deeper Not interested. I just didn't in with the booty. She's not interested not a money job for me. Just need an in with mama brige food who chef Brigitte and her lapdog teen Neptune have been frozen several days now ever since we shrouded their subnet with ice and you Well, you were sent here to free them Do you know why they didn't tell you everything?  When we took them all we knew the vdb's at sim runners Teen Neptune reached first to see what was going on When we iced him brige dove in after him used him to shield herself Tough cookie that one but still finds herself stuck Care to back that up got anything to back that claim But the voodoo's want to set me up Wana they did it already Soon as you handed over your link slipped into specter and a virus I'm talking as if he was there. He's working you so obvious it hurts Asked for proof sites. I'd know That's so then please take a look we're in a system diagnostic Last chance decide now Why not attack him head on? Guessing you've identified the voodoo top brass So what if we don't I think he has a point see me as a sly assassin Offing them one by one Please don't act like the corpse who financed that watch don't format wet work Let alone the armies they have at their beck and call Armies make too much noise And the voodoo's are skittish as few mice What's your beef with the voodoo's? Any idea how many attacks from behind the black wall we neutralized last year? Want me to guess?  A compromise I'll fish the voodoo virus out of your system And I release both burjit and team Neptune They'll wake up like nothing ever happened Not to worry And all you got to do is let us walk With our data chat. What do I do? I feel like I'm gonna get what I want either way It sounds like I'm gonna get what I want either way, but on the flip side I help him, but I believe him, but I don't think I actually gain anything From working with him Hey V, you all right? It was right voodoo's were blowing smoke As you gave him access to the net watch web.       I hope he likes surprises Frick man Kill the net watch agent for nothing Well, no don't the net watch agents always make it to where I can't trace anything or that always trace me, right? Okay, here we go You wish to talk to placid Is that what you want? Because I can take you The way They thought you died.  What did you do to me in the gym? You let loose in the gym with what exactly? A virus A vectored electromagnetic impulse It's all before my own fuses popped Your guys shredding tags and the net watch agents in mosey's grid It is called Ten net watch agents swallow it.  I say we must head on down This is not over net watch will return I hope you will not lead him to the grid He's ragnar nothing special you see this dance. I saw that Soty cornea the toot moon soty Sending placid away just for a little old me I did that one him to harm me that we cannot allow You know about the biochip, don't you? Yes, and we must check its condition How much you know for my scans?  It is at the chip's cost I should have thought about that before you tried to kill me If I was here the chip would never be in danger If it is in good condition, we offer you a fair price Perhaps more for the Fine, I'll give you access Finalmore come with me. We take you into the cyberspace. No better place for you to interact with the construct Guess all this means you got your own synth tech interface We have our own versions of all We do not use anything from the city Tell me why you want Johnny first. Okay, hang on. I want to know what you need Silverhand for first We wish to contact Alt Cunningham. We know she and Silverhand were close The relic which Arasaka held close. It is our only lead Alt Cunningham heritiver Oh Where from whom?  What think I'm hallucinating found myself an imaginary friend Little is known of how an engram might exist within a human's neural network. Tell you one thing Doesn't shake out well for the human What's your plan to contact alt We try to cut out a unique piece of Silverhand's engram from the biochip Alt will know it if something of the human is left after years beyond the black wall She will answer But what you said nothing about breaking through the black wall Well, now you know Looks like you're the bait you're okay with that Yeah, whatever just do what she says Oh, come on not the tub We must prepare you for the dive into cyberspace You are not accustomed to the neural demand.  Just do what she says. I'm not about to sizzle You don't want to sizzle me dude. Why not? Let's do this Okay What now Johnny What happened where am I where are we? This is our bbs data fortress Bridge to the deep net We're in the internet. So What now? We can begin all is ready. We must find the data on alt alt alone This should only take This rogue there's Johnny Silverhand getting shot 2013 What's happening?  Said you weren't coming said you weren't coming tonight Not if I can help it Changed my mind lover.   Not just today. How is it subtlety go so far over your head? weird for an artist Things were swimming What changed your mind?  Not the first to try believe me Honestly, I've got better things to do Just hoped I'd help you realize you're deluding yourself And that doing anything about it.  That's it. That's the problem.  Got somewhere to be silver hand ice chum Alt save it Let's get out of here Join us for a drop silver rocker Another time chumbas But what if there won't be another time? Huh Johnny boy Wait, so how is this in 2013 people have like cyberware really did you didn't wait did I get bad ending? No, was that neo is that actually neo?  Arasaka wants her Abduction was a standard intercorp extraction nothing more. Okay. So what are they after? Soul killer an ai sound familiar at all. So what'll it be? Come in with Where to Arasaka tower to grab alt right back You wasting your time. I found you Wasn't sure if you hadn't left town Actually, yeah, it looks like a son and younger any combined One who values discretion.  That's a jacket is jacket urgent, but I got the euro a much But out this isn't your biz Is now Rocker just pulled out his wallet. Don't you get it?   I can't see They actually have the Porsche like In the game they have like the actual brands All right, so who we got to pull out Arasaka alt Cunningham netrunner from ITS Oh Yeah The tower what's it taking her there? This gets better by the minute how you want to play this out of you dogs got a plan Yep distract them make some noise Set up right under Arasaka's windows and crank it loud Blast the pains out It'll be a gig to remember Porters are on the scene at Arasaka tower And they all agree a psychoactive agent has been dispersed at the site affecting those in the crowd All right You recording this whole thing Uh-huh why I want to say a few words to the folks at home. Do what you gotta do. Just stay out of my way You gotta find the main frame man, I thought we were having a moment there I would advise you not to disturb her what you do to alt I prefer to work on a project of a lifetime Get out of my way Dude, what if he unplugged her and she died because of it? Alt alt come on. Don't do this This is all we can do now my man. Wait show people the truth. Wait he has two Change up. She's not We're having a thompson What happened to him?   And here I was afraid you tried to cheer me up Well, what's not to like scout? Dude, what do you treat it alt?  Shit, you must have been watching some other flick.   She might have been right What's that supposed to mean?  I saw her get decon She didn't die. She got out escaped Whoa, look to me like She fled into the net When'd you find out? When she made contact a little later And what'd she say? That she was a captain in the Arasaka subnet But they couldn't hurt her and she told me not to come looking for her What? Why? This one time she wanted me to just let it go Because enough people had died for nothing already So What did you do? Got my hands on two thermonuclear charges Then headed back to Arasaka tower How do you know alt's still around? It's been half a century But you've spent cloistered in the koshin Now watch could have hunted her down years ago Oh, they tried believe me But their tiny corporate brains can't handle a free ai that knows how people think They were busy looking for her in the crystal palace while she was building the ghost city for kentown Good boys think they know where she is beyond the black wall Where nobody can touch her Brigitte's primed to go there break through just to contact alt talk to her Ka-ching So Did it work? Yes, we extract the necessary fragment of silver hands and gorm We are ready now to make contact with alt First we must dive deeper Beyond there are no more I thought about that too disney. Oh my gosh. This is what the frick Oh my gosh. She's giving me like beyond the black wall Few have gone through to the other side And none have yet returned She will be the first I saw something like this in vr chat window. So Actually, you've got no idea what's beyond that thing But we will know soon In these shapes i'm seeing Wild on fetter day.  I love you. Keep up the good work.  I want Johnny's psyche removed We will not pass through You will take the code to the other side Don't got much for options. Do I? Ali Okay, here we go. We're gonna cross into the black wall. How do I get to the other side? Brigitte what's going on came through the black wall to meet me That mean we're good things are chilled between us I have recognized your engram code, but I do not know why you are here To give you a chance to pay me back for getting you out of our socket tower V this is Best netrunner night cities ever seen Alt this is v You need to save his life Brigitte what did she want from you in exchange for Johnny? Did I guarantee her and her clan's safety beyond the black wall? And why'd they want to go out there? The corporation controlled net is now nearly as unstable as it was before the black wall's creation The voodoo boys wish to use this to their advantage to fight on our side when the time comes Your side meaning that of free ai's That even possible If they prepare appropriately This chip the relic it's killing me Construct on its worm in its way through my neural system. I see this, but why is it my problem?   I cannot help you. Okay. Can't or won't Can't to attempt to do so. I would need access to more advanced technology Interesting Brigitte claims she alone could help me The voodoo boys deceived you. Why am I not surprised? Fine, so how about makoshi? That advanced enough for you if I could gain access to makoshi It would cease to exist. Good. We can work with that. We'll get you inside makoshi and you'll help the deal So we agreed? Yes, we are agreed Find a path into makoshi. I shall prepare a program to help you navigate the local net How will I contact you once I'm ready? This is a bbs address. It will be our secure communication channel voodoo boys, what about them? They shall let you pass on hard. Those were our terms So you managed to survive? No, thanks to you. I'm sure You must not take any of this personally We seek silver hands construct. You are unlucky.   I want nothing to do with you So get out. Of course.    You deny the right to distribute your right to die No different than being kept alive on a respirator.  They're coming for us Realize what you're doing to me is what our sock is doing at makoshi Yeah, I know that's why i'm gonna fix it. Let's move get back to work. King of serial. Let's do V do you have a moment need to talk? I mean no longer moment. I have a problem On my way. Let me guess Saul right See you soon New job with a little help from my friends. We'll do it tomorrow.  Okay


Welcome to our talk. CentOS and Alma makes the dream work. My name is Carl George, and I just now realized that we talked about Jack doing the initial intro and then introducing me, so I already messed it up. I guess we're going to flip it around and I'm going to introduce Jack. I'm Carl, I work on the CPE team at Red Hat, primarily working on CentOS and CentOS Stream, and this is Jack Aboudabal from AlmaLinux. Hey, everybody. Talk about yourself a little bit more too. Yeah, I'm the community manager at AlmaLinux, so you can find me running around like a chicken with its head cut off, most days. And yeah, we're glad to be here. We're thanks also to Fedora for letting us participate, and we've sponsored as well. Not only the conference, but hopefully the community, and we'd like to keep the good energy flowing. Excellent. Where are my slides on advancing? There we go. So, first I'm going to talk about CentOS, which will be my area of specialty. Traditionally for those that... What was the chat saying? Okay, people can hear Jack. All right, so for CentOS, the traditional CentOS distribution, what it used to be was a, what we call a rebuild distribution. We took the sources from Red Hat Enterprise Linux and recompiled them to create what we would call a bug-for-bug compatible distribution. It was kind of like a de-branded white label rail. We are in the process of changing what CentOS is. The old model where the old rebuild model, we've since been calling that CentOS Linux as a distribution. The new model that we're trying to pioneer is called CentOS Stream. That is, in effect, what we're trying to do is move CentOS from just downstream of rail in the development process to just upstream of rail. Fedora is still upstream of rail as well, but a good way to think of it is that Fedora is upstream for new rail major versions, and CentOS will be upstream of rail for new minor versions. Currently, the content in CentOS Stream more or less reflects what's in rail 8.5, which isn't released publicly yet. The current public rail is based on rail 8.4, and in the old models, the classic CentOS Linux still exists, and that is at 8.4 tracking rail as a downstream as well. That's gonna be end of life at the end of the year so we can focus 100% on the new model. Not everyone's a fan of that. It's not the best execution, but that's what's happening with the distribution. Since we're moving it, that's gonna open up opportunity, and it's gonna leave a space in the ecosystem for people that still want the old model. The new model has a lot of benefits that I'll get into later, but that new spot that's being opened up in the ecosystem is where it opens an opportunity for new rebuilds like Amalinix, which I believe Jack wants to tell you about. Yeah, hey, everybody. So if you haven't heard about Amalinix, we're the only 100% community owned and governed, let's call it alternative to the CentOS classic model or what Carl referred to as CentOS Linux. And we're actually quite thankful that things played out the way they did because it gives us a great opportunity to fill in a spot in the ecosystem and do some things that really weren't possible before. And we're also very excited about the ability to finally be able to collaborate, to be able to send things upstream to effect rail, to take care of issues that were brought up or that issues that would have been brought up in the past but weren't necessarily able to be handled because of the model, the way things were set up. So that's us. And again, thanks to Fedora for putting on the conference and thanks for Fedora for having us and thanks for everyone that's been working with us to make sure that we can fill the needs of the community. So the first area of collaboration that we wanna talk about in teamwork is Apple. Obviously we're at a Fedora conference and some people may be wondering, well, what does CentOS and Alma have to do with Fedora? Well, first and foremost, Apple. Apple is a sub-project of Fedora. It stands for Extra Packages for Enterprise Linux. And the real quick summary of that is that every package that isn't in rail itself is eligible to be added to this extra package of repositories, every Fedora package, I should say. These Fedora packages get branched and rebuilt to be compatible with rail and then delivered in this additional repository. It is extremely popular. I remember in Matthew's slides, he normally shows the mirror hits and the DNF count me statistics that show that Apple is highly consumed actually even more than Fedora itself. But the important thing to remember is that Apple is still part of the Fedora project. Apple packages are Fedora packages. So everyone that wants to collaborate and work on extra packages for our entire ecosystem, we all need to become Fedora packages. And then the packages that we care about either submit them ourselves or volunteer to co-maintain the existing ones and maintain Apple branches for them to make them available in rail-based distributions. The big thing to remember is that Apple is a neutral playing field. It doesn't favor any particular rebuild. It doesn't even favor CentOS. Apple is built against rail exactly. That comes into play later. There's a few very, very small amount of incompatibilities since CentOS is now gonna be tracking the next minor version content. Every once in a while, less than 1% of the packages in Apple will need to be rebuilt to be compatible with the next version of rail. We're working on a thing now called Apple Next to allow packages a place to do that to make things work seamlessly. If you wanted to learn more about that, come to mine and Mohan's talk on Saturday about what's next for Apple Next. But that is not what this presentation's about. So I will continue going on. The big, the other thing is that this, that Apple benefits the entire ecosystem. If all engineers or all the community members add a package to Apple, then that benefits rail users, it benefits Rocky users, it benefits everyone. Yep, rising tide lifts all boats. It is a collaboration area. Did you wanna add anything about Apple, Jack? No, basically hit it spot on. I think we can move on to the next slide. Perfect. So rail contributions. Traditionally, rebuild distributions like the old CentOS Linux model and the new ones that are coming about like Alma, they have a mission of being bug for bug compatible with rail. The idea is that if something does, if something is a bug in rail, it should also be a bug in the derivative rebuild distribution so that it's maximum compatibility. That sounds great in theory until you're hitting a bug that you don't wanna hit and you want it fixed. Traditionally in the old model, there was no contribution path for rail. You could file a bug. Ideally, if you also had a rail subscription, you could reproduce the bug on rail and demonstrate that, maybe even open a support case if you paid for it yourself or if your company was paying for rail. But if you just had a bug that you could only reproduce in CentOS and didn't have any way to try and reproduce it on rail, a lot of times your bug report might just get ignored by the rail maintainers. The rail maintainers definitely didn't look at bugs in bugs.centos.org. One of the big changes with the new model is that CentOS StreamBugs are filed in Bugzilla under the rail product. That means that rail maintainers do pay attention to them now. And that was the very first start of how we're making it the contribution path with CentOS Stream 9, we're actually gonna have the package sources be eligible to have pull requests to them or merge requests in GitLab. So that way, not only can you file bugs that the rail maintainers pay attention to you, you can actually demonstrate the fix and send it in yourself. That is a big opportunity that quite frankly, the old CentOS Linux never had that opportunity to do. These new rebuilds are in a very advantageous place because if they find a bug, they can verify that that bug also exists in rail, then they can verify that that bug also exists in CentOS Stream. If it's already fixed in Stream, then they know, okay, this is coming in the next minor version of rail and we just have to wait to rebuild that source. If it's also reproducible in CentOS Stream, then those downstream distributions can contribute that fix and work to get it into rail, which then in turn gets it into their distribution. And that's what's really most exciting to us because it really is it's a direct path to be able to affect rail and to take care of any issues that come up. And as a matter of fact, we already are contributors on that path because we found some issues with Anaconda, which a community member found and then we've submitted that upstream so that now that can get fixed in Stream, in rail. And it's a trickle-down benefit for everybody. Absolutely. And not just for Alma, for every other derivative distribution of rail as well. Yeah, absolutely. And I think that's part of how working in the community model benefits everyone is that not fracturing things and keeping everything centralized in one place and working within the existing systems and with the existing paths is what's gonna let us derive maximum benefit for everybody. I think there's something like eight or something like that rebuilds now, which is kind of crazy. But everyone will benefit from that and the community will benefit from that work too because ultimately it ends up in the community's hands. Absolutely. The next area of collaboration we wanna talk about is special interest groups. A lot of people are familiar with these in Fedora land also. CentOS has their own special interest groups. We're trying to get more of them started now with the ability for some contributions to actually get into rail itself. Our SIGs are growing. One of the real popular new ones is the Hyperscale SIG. We're also looking, there's a K-Mod SIG that's getting started up to provide additional kernel modules. Other rebuild distributions, some of them are considering doing their own special interest groups. That's actually not the best way to collaborate if they're just building something just for their distribution. What we'd like to see with CentOS special interest groups is that all the rebuilds can participate there. We actually got some plans in the works. Nothing final and no promises, but we're hoping that we can make it where CentOS SIGs can rebuild against not just CentOS Stream, but also rail in the same way that Apple builds against rail. That means that a CentOS SIG would be able to create packages that are maximum compatibility with both rail, rail rebuilds, and then the alternate repo for CentOS Stream for any upcoming changes. Yeah, and I think one important point to make here, Carl, is that the model for CentOS is changing, right? The project itself, contrary to popular belief, is not dead. It's just the model which changed. And I think the SIGs are very active. There's a lot going on there. There are a lot of great people involved there. And one of the things that we want to do on AMA Linux aside is work within that current framework so that all that SIG work is still done in CentOS, right? I don't think it does us any good, or really does anyone any good to have our own separate SIGs. I mean, we may have SIGs for different things within the distro, which are maybe not relevant to upstream, but things like this, I think that we do need to work within the current framework and what currently exists in order to make sure that that stuff benefits everybody and that everybody's getting a good look at it. And like Carl said, I actually sent an email out earlier today and we have a pager issue open about creating rel build routes in the CentOS build system so that this way we can actually go ahead and build against rel and then release those as part of CentOS or send the stuff back upstream to CentOS stream. And then again, it'll be available to everybody. And I think that's really the most efficient model that we could probably utilize at this point. And I think that it's an important point to make that there's still a lot of great people involved in the ecosystem. And let's keep it going. I don't think there's any need to create anything of our own really that doesn't benefit everyone else. Right. Having every rebuild have their own special SIGs would just be a lot of times duplication of effort. And then other times it would be, well, this rebuild has this SIG and this rebuild has this SIG and maybe not all of them. No one rebuild has everything that somebody's looking for. In the same way that Apple is a common collaboration area for extra packages, CentOS stream is the common collaboration area to contribute into the core distribution. We'd like CentOS SIGs to be the common contribution area to create extra packages that don't make sense that aren't eligible for Apple but that work across the ecosystem all in one place. Anything else you want to add on SIGs, Jack? No, I think we covered it. And I think, again, your comments were kind of spot on call. Well, that basically wraps up the actual presentation. We can open it up for questions now. I'm guessing there are a lot of questions. If you guys want to ask questions, just send them in the QA thing and then we can, or Q&A thing and then we can pull them out of there. And then we are also having an Alma Linux open office hours right after this on Hoppin as well. So I'll be there. We may have other team members there. If anyone has any questions, please feel free, come in. Let's meet. All right, I'm taking a look at the Q&A now. Miro asked a question. I have trouble understanding what do the SIGs actually do in CentOS? Build content in Apple or build extra content in CentOS that is not in rail? What's the relationship between rail, CentOS, SIGs and Apple? So CentOS SIGs have different rules than what Apple has. Apple is strictly extra packages and also it doesn't have, kernel modules are not eligible for Apple. That's in the Apple guidelines. So CentOS SIGs can provide alternate kernels, alternate kernel modules. They can provide packages that are at, that replace the packages in the base distribution rather than just being extra packages. For example, the Hyperscale SIG, whereas you couldn't add a newer version of, say, SystemD into Apple because that breaks the Apple rules. It's already in the base distribution. The Hyperscale SIG could ship the latest version of SystemD and I believe they do. And users that opt into that repository get that package upgraded. So it's different rules and different content sets. Some of those packages, like I know the, I believe the Cloud SIG, it works with the RDO project and they may upgrade some of the Python packages and libraries that are in the base distribution in order to support the latest version of OpenStack. That's another example of where SIGs are allowed to override packages from the core distribution if necessary. I think that mostly answers the question as far as Apple versus SIGs. Definitely if there's, if somebody goes to a SIG wanting to add an extra package that's not in the distribution, the standard practice is to redirect those people to just add it to Apple instead, as long as it meets all the qualifications and criteria over there. Cool, so- There you go. There's that question. I'm gonna go in a different order because there was an anonymous one right before Miro and it looks like they're stacking at the top. Is Apple to be as trusted as Fedora OS? Is it safe to use without worrying too much about malicious packages? You can trust Apple just as much as you trust Fedora. Now, anyone can become a Fedora Packager, they can follow the rules and then their intentions could change to become malicious. There's no guarantees against that. But like I said, Apple is on the same playing field as Fedora in that sense. Yeah, and I think it has many eyes on it as well. So the likelihood of a supply chain attack there while it exists, I would like to hope is pretty minimal due to the amount of people that are contributing to Apple and reviewing Apple and using Apple. Absolutely, and since Fedora Proven Packagers, since Apple packages are Fedora packages, if something malicious was discovered, any Proven Packager in Fedora could go and undo it and fix it if necessary. So it's on the same level of trust as Fedora itself, I would say. Let's work back. Jack, do you wanna take the Alma question? Yeah, so does Alma Linux work on UEFI hardware and does Alma Linux and RHEL support and video graphics cards? Well, we definitely work on UEFI hardware. The question about the graphic cards, that's a little bit more nuanced, but the general rule is if RHEL supports it, we support it. So I guess I'll leave it at that. I see a question from Ladar. Familiar name, hey Ladar, how you doing? Should I use Alma or Rocky? Why? Okay, so I figured someone would ask this question. Keep it neutral. Okay, so without getting it to flame wars, I think there are a few distinctions between the projects that people should know about and people can make their own decision. Certainly, we're definitely not against Rocky by any stretch or anything like that. I think everyone is doing good work. One main difference between us, I think is the ownership model. So we're a 501C6 nonprofit and we actually just finalized membership guidelines. So basically what that's gonna allow us to do. So number one, the original problem with Sentos was always that it was never independently, Sentos the distribution was never independently owned and governed. What we tried to do was set up this nonprofit so that all the IP everything is owned by the foundation, it is a nonprofit. The foundation has membership guidelines, which basically means community members can join in and they have a vote and they have a say, sponsors can join in, they have votes, they can have a say. And we're really just trying to balance that between all the stakeholders. I think that's really, really important because that was always the problem with the original Sentos and now hopefully, according to the way this was set up, there is no one point of ownership. It's owned by the community. All of it is owned by the community. It's governed by the community. The community votes, the community can propose things. The community can accept changes, they can reject changes. So not all of that stuff is in place yet but it's getting there, right? We're working towards that, the foundation was established. On the rocky end, they decided to go with a for-profit company and it's actually a PBC. And sorry, my kids are wandering downstairs. Wow, hello. I figured that might happen, sorry about that. So what they decided to do was set up a different structure where it's set up more in the way of a traditional corporation. Now that corporation is set up for the public good but again, it's all owned by one entity and there's one single shareholder there. So I mean, I think that's kind of an issue. Things will play out over time and we'll see. It's not anything knocking them but personally as someone who grew up in the open source world and subscribed to open source ideals, I would like to think that we would pick a more open ownership and governance model. So anyway, that's kind of my take on it. And really, which one should you use? Again, that depends on you. I think if you wanna subscribe to that philosophy, you're more than welcome to use us. If you feel like you'd rather use Rocky than go ahead and use Rocky. I think one thing that we do have going for us is that the project started from a group of people that had a tremendous amount of experience doing this. So we've actually been rebuilding RHEL for 10 years. So, we're experienced, we're seasoned, we know what we're doing. We have a lot of knowledge of the ins and outs of what's going on and the testament to that is just how quickly we were able to get releases out and how quickly we've been able to get security updates and Arata out. You know, I think it just speaks for itself. So, I don't- Say something for your office hours, yeah. Yeah. Anyway, I just wanna give people a comprehensive answer so that I feel like, you know, I don't want anyone to feel like we're trying to walk around or anything. Right, I think it'll be great to go into more depth on the governance models and stuff though in the next session. I know people are very interested in that. I'd like to hear more about it as well. Sure. Let's go ahead and get to the rest of these questions for this session. Where did I leave them off? I know that I already answered a question in the text, but from Miro asked, the different content sets from SIGs are delivered as optional repos. Yes, every SIG has a corresponding CentOS Release SIG name package in the Extras repo. It's not installed by default, it's completely opt-in. A big reason for that is what I mentioned earlier that packages in those SIGs are allowed to override packages in the base distribution. So once you enable a SIG repository, it's not going to be 100% compatible with RHEL anymore. That's an important thing to be aware of. It's not necessarily a bad thing that may be exactly what you need to fix a particular problem or to run a particular stack of software you need, whether that's OpenStack or CIF or some of the virtualization things, but they're completely opt-in, they're not default. You wanna take the Alma Plus, Jack? Yeah, will there be an Alma Plus repo? That's a good question. Since we're running short on time, let's take that into the open office hours and we could talk about that there. I think it might not be necessary based on how successful the Kmod SIG is, because a lot of the Kmod packages they were intending to ship were things that the CentOS Plus kernel provided for him. Plus SIG had, yep, exactly. So if that works out correctly, then maybe it won't be necessary, but yet to be determined. Let's see. So I understand how CentOS Stream benefits both REL and Devs. It does replace Fedora's and, it does replace Fedora's and upstream for REL though. First part of that question, not exactly. Fedora is still the upstream for new major versions of REL. REL 9 is gonna be derived from Fedora 34 and we're doing that work, previously that work took place in private whenever REL would branch off from Fedora. Now that work is gonna be taking place in the public as CentOS Stream. So right now CentOS Stream 9, it's still in its early days, but that is Fedora 34 and Fedora itself was the upstream for the new major version. Now we're working on 9.0 of REL in CentOS or CentOS Stream 9. Same part of the question. So how do you convince Fedora packages to maintain Apple back? Apple branches benefiting CentOS Stream. It's the entire ecosystem benefit. A lot of the packages in Apple, they might not make sense for Fedora itself because they're already in Fedora. Whenever, as far as Fedora packages that already maintain Apple packages, nothing changes for them from the REL perspective. If you're in a shop that's using a mix of Fedora and REL or if you're using Fedora workstations with REL and production servers, then it still is the same benefit to maintain your Fedora packages in Apple so that they're available and compatible for your REL machines. Nothing changes there. The Apple Next that I'm gonna talk about more on Saturday, that is just a very small add-on repo for Apple that whenever an incompatibility is found, which right now we're tracking less than 1% of Apple packages even needed. But an example right now is the QT stack. QT is getting rebased from 5.12 to 5.15 in the next REL minor version in 8.5. At least that's the plan right now. And so that means that Apple packages that linked against QT 5.12 need to be rebuilt to be installable. That's taking place in Apple 8 Next right now. And so a lot of people are gonna still use Apple on CentOS Stream, which is totally valid, but because of those slight changes that are coming down the pipeline, Apple Next gives those Fedora packages a way to create compatible packages when necessary. I've been commenting on there. It doesn't really replace Fedora so much as it makes the jump smaller. I would say REL has two upstreams now instead of just one. Yeah, I liked your explanation of major version versus minor version, Carl. I think that's really the most accurate way to look at it. Because previously, before the CentOS Stream model, if REL, I think we're out of time, but before the CentOS Stream model, if REL Red Hat has always practiced an upstream first mentality, if you wanted to get something into REL, the answer was get it upstream first. That meant getting it into Fedora and having to wait three to five or six years to get it in the next major version of REL. That's just unacceptable for a lot of people. It's just way too long of a timeframe to ask for. With CentOS now being just upstream of REL, we can push people to contribute there and it gets into the next REL minor version without having to wait for the next REL major version. All right, so I think there was one question about this Epo work on AMA Linux. Yeah, absolutely, it works very, very well. I think it's time we wrap up in here. Let's head over to the other session just because there may be people waiting in there. So thanks everyone for coming. I see the Kubernetes question. Real quick, I'll answer that one. I don't have any idea what Kubernetes is targeting. That's all up to them, doesn't. I'd like to see them target REL8 and CentOS stream mate, but we're seeing some upstream projects start doing that, but I don't know if Kubernetes is doing that yet or not. So I think that wraps up all the questions and we can go over to your office hours, Jack. I'll see you over there. Yep, all right, we'll see you guys there. Thanks everyone for coming. And if you need to reach us, you can grab us on IRC. Carl is Carl W. George and I'm the mayor. See you guys later, y'all.