Hello and welcome to NewsClick. Scheme workers across the country have called for a nationwide strike on the 17th of January. Today we have with us, A.R. Sindhu, who is the general secretary of all India Federation of Anganbari Workers and Helpers. She will be discussing with us the need for the strike and the demands being made by the workers. Welcome, Corporate Sindhu. So, starting with the need for the strike, wages have always been a major issue for workers. So, can you tell us about the status of wages for scheme workers right now? Actually, the status of scheme workers, they are not even recognized as workers. That is the basic issue. The wages that they did not even call as wages. So, they say it is honorarium. And the scheme workers, they are mostly working in the government schemes, which provide the basic services to the poor people of the country like nutrition, health, education and all. That they are in the schemes itself, which should be permanent system. There they are made it as a temporary system like scheme. So, there itself there is a basic question. And then who are actually delivering the services in the schemes, the scheme workers. So, like Anganwadi workers, Asha workers, then midday mill workers, which who give midday mill and even para teachers and all in service with Shabhi and child labor teachers. So, various government schemes that those who are delivering the actual service, they are never treated as workers. They are never given the status of workers. That is the basic question. Then even this honorarium, so called honorarium, even our ministers and MPs and all are getting the honorarium. But this is as near as 7000 rupees per month that also for 10 months for a midday mill worker. For an Asha worker who delivers the basic health services, she is getting in peace rate. Even means sometimes it is up to 500 rupees or so per month. So, this is the situation as per as wages are concerned. And what about benefits such as health and pension? There is no other benefit given to any of these workers as per the government. The only social security available for the Anganwadi workers by government of India, he was a insurance scheme. Anganwadi Karikarthi Bhima Yojana. That from 2017, April onwards the government has cut it down only up to after 45 years only. So, this is the status of social security. They do not have any social security or any pension or anything. And I think the instant budget cuts which were made in these schemes also made this situation worse. This is related to the entire question of the basic services. So, here these are the services which is essential for the poor of the country for malnutrition is the biggest problem in India. And then the only scheme which is providing nutrition for the children like ICDS and the health services is related to that. That is midday meal sorry NHM national health mission and the midday meal which is providing nutrition to the school children. So, these three schemes together even it is covering around 12 crore of children up to 6 ages. And then up to 8th standard that is also around 11 crore children. So, this much coverage is there. So, that is for these services the government allocation already was very poor. But the Modi government which in the first full budget of the government itself, they have cut down the it up to one third for the ICDS. And it has half the budget for the midday meals. This is the situation. So, and not only that it is only thing is one thing is budget cut. Now the government is proposing to close down this centrally sponsored scheme one way or the other. And there is a the government proposal for closing down many of the schemes. There is a need to rationalize the schemes because sometimes there is duplication and all. But the government proposal and then the IOC report is that it is all coming under the category of subsidies. So, they want to close down all these schemes and then they cannot directly close it down just like that. So, they are proposing in different ways. One is that this PPP public private partner she is sponsoring then by CSR merging with that. And then the latest one is that the direct benefit transfer. So, they are proposed it in the basic schemes of ICDS already they are proposed. They are proposing it in the other schemes also like NHM these maternity benefit also they are they have already cut it down. But then this nutrition component of that they are giving planning to have it as direct benefit transfer. So, instead of instead of the services. Yeah, instead of Anganwari workers making food for children they will just get money in the accounts. Actually the pilot proposal which the in November the ministry of women and child development which they proposed. They say that instead of the food available at the Anganwadi centres the mothers will be paid the amount. It will come to an amount of 250 rupees per month per child.  So, for a child getting 250 rupees per month and in each the required quantities how can they provide the services. So, that is the amount is one thing. The other thing is that in such because of poverty only this malnutrition occurs. So, in such households if paying this month then there is no we cannot assure that the child will get the nutrition according to the requirements. So, everywhere in the world this cash transfer that will say flow. And like he said these centrally sponsored schemes are a way for the government to basically are a major way through which the government meets the needs of the citizens. And now as you mentioned there is been like privatization is another way through which they are being cut down. So, can you tell us more about how privatization NGOs are coming into the picture? Actually you see this like in the ICDS for example this only the half of the children up to age 6 is covered under ICDS. And there is a demand from the public and from the Supreme Court order also there is an order that it should be universalized with quality to ensure it is a universal right of the children to have the nutrition and also the preschool. So, here this allocation itself was very low then there was this demand from and this Supreme Court monitoring and all then there was a proposal in the plan to increase the budgetary allocation. But what happened later on is that they this government in the name of rationalization they are proposing to cut down the expenses of the central government. So, in that they means because of this right to food act also is there then the Supreme Court monitoring is there then the public pressure is there and the workers pressure of course is there. So, they what they are trying to make it is that in the name of the social involvement they are bringing in the NGOs. NGOs in the sense that it is not somebody who is charitable having a sincere course they are all corporate NGOs like the Akshay Patra, Nandi Foundation. These are the B teams or means they are even the arms of the multinational companies and many of them are directly linked with the food companies like the Nandi Foundation. They are having linked with the food area working multinational corporations they are there in their direct board. Like that they are bringing in this big NGOs with the centralized kitchens and all and then there is a connection with the CSR of the companies. So, that you ensure and at the same time the government of India is paying the amount is also it is not that the government is in India the government money is going to the NGOs and these corporates. And at the same time they are getting the benefits of the CSR also and then there is another aspect of tax evasion. So, they are getting that kind of because they are doing such a charitable work. So, they will get tax concessions also. For example, the Vedanta company which is having a tax default amounting to means more than 20,000 crores payable to government of India. So, the which is there is a dispute. So, they are having an agreement with the Ministry of WCD for having around 4000 Anganwadi centers and 400 crores. So, it is a very cheap deal means for them it is very for 400 crores you will be getting your good name in the good list. So, that the entire nexus is there. Then again this there is the question of the supplementary nutrition component food. There the corporates are involved now through this package food. So, they are giving the plea that micro nutrients should be there. And then the minister herself means Menaka Gandhi has proposed to have ready to eat food in packets to be given to the children in the Anganwadi centers. She even went to the extent saying that we need we do not need even the Anganwadi centers. We will be directly sending is to through post offices. So, these are the type of things which is involved in and this is a big market for the food companies also. So, now on the 17th we have this all India strike before this last year we had the Mahapada and there were other agitations as well. What has been the response of the government so far and do you think after this strike the response will be any different? You see that this is these workers trade is under trade unions were raising not only the workers of issues of scheme workers, but the workers in general. But this particular issue is one is related to the right of the workers themselves for the services.  So, there this is a crucial question and it is the employer is the government. So, there this and it is a vast section where nearly one crore workers are there involved in the central government, centralist sponsors schemes only. So, and majority of them are women and many of them are coming from the socially deprived sections and majority are the only breadwinners of their family because their recruitment roles itself says inside that they should be recruited from such backgrounds. So, here they are coming out for their rights. There are big struggles, spontaneous struggles also and some are under the leadership of the trade unions and some struggles leading to other struggles like the Anganwadi workers are mostly unionized and their struggles are inspiring the other sections like ASHA workers and midday mill workers and this rural livelihood mission LRLM and this para teachers there are so many struggles. Where many places the state governments are also forced to give some more wages to these workers. In the last one year many states have were forced to increase the honorarium particularly of Anganwadi workers, ASHA workers and midday mill workers. So, these struggles are coming up and they are for that reason they are coming out more and more also and for indefinite strikes like that they are coming out. So, the government in one way they want to how because it is a big constituency of workers and particularly of the rural population. So, there they are under political pressure whereas they want to cut down the budget. Here our purpose is that we are we try to convince the government then we are trying to pressurize this particularly the people's representatives it is their duty to take a position whether you want to continue this or whether we are you there for the rights of these workers. So, here some way we could make an atmosphere where the government is under pressure. So, the government statements are always coming that first when we were we started this union I see they were flatly rejecting that no they cannot be treated as workers. Now the Indian labor conference report is their recommendations are there. The governments are also saying that ok they are they have a right but we do not have the money. So, there also we are giving proposal country terms that how from where the money with the help of experts and economists and all. So, there they are now in the defensive. So, there we have no other way but to involve the people for their rights as well and to pressurize the government. So, we hope and we met the ministers we met the finance ministers the central trade unions separately also means for the pre budget consultation. So, we our demand is that you have to give proper allocation to the basic services schemes then including to have a better service through the schemes and for minimum wages then social security including pension P of ESI and all for the workers and also no privatization. These are the major demands and not only that now the government that latest they are in the name of linking with other they are cutting down the number of beneficiaries. Like you have we have been hearing about the starvation does but this is happening in mid-day meal. This is happening in ICDS this is happened with the maternity entitlements. So, every scheme they are cutting down in the name of linking of other also that is also that is also one of our major demands that no cutting down of the number of beneficiaries or the benefits. So, these are all then we hope that we could pressurize the government and in the ensuing budget there will be a means even if it is not enough that at least some measure to address this issue. But otherwise we the central trade unions have decided that including indefinite strike and for the scheme workers including having more means indefinite padau type of agitations we will be planning after the budget. So, we do hope that the government responds differently this time and it's better and the situation improves. Thank you governments for joining us. Thank you for watching Newsclick.


You're welcome back, there's still the run-up. Recall that the Tribunal ruling on Friday had nullified the election of People's Democratic Party, PDPs at Demola at Delike, a mid-overvoting and additional votes for Adeboega or Yatola of the APC, putting Yatola ahead of Adeleke. With acquisitions and discrepancies in the 2022 Oshun State Governorship election, how can the judiciary contribute to the free, fair and credible election in this February and March? Because these are the two major elections and that's what we're discussing here. Remember that before, now we had talked about the fact that the UN chief team had advised the judiciary to be very up and doing and be transparent enough so that these cases will be seen to be given the right judgements. Well, Justice CEO of Huebu Human Rights Lawyer, Vice Presidential Candidate of NAC Party in 2019 presidential election is here and Barista Abumere Osara. Barista Abumere Osara is a legal practitioner and notary public. Welcome gentlemen to the program. Okay, let me start with you. Yeah, let me begin with Barista, with Justice of Huebu. You were in 2019 a candidate, right? And you saw the... Sorry? Hello Justice, can you hear me?  Okay, okay. All right. You were a candidate in 2019 and there was an election, the outcome of the elections and all that. You saw the legal processes that happened in 2019. So let me just begin with you. What kind of things from the 2019 experience do you think the judiciary should never take into 2023 because of this advice and the fact that Nigerians want a free and fair election and after that all the drama that goes into the legal matters that come after the elections. What kind of things do you think the judiciary must never take from 2019 to 2023? Well, truly speaking, I have to say that there are two major issues. First of all, the issue of putter independence of the judiciary. What I mean by that is independent of the judiciary in the sense that there should not be any interference, any form of interference by the executive. Both at the national level, state level, and the local government level. And that is part of the problem we are having today. Why? Because I keep on saying this and I will still maintain my position. We are judges are being appointed by the powers of the state governor or the president. There will be likelihood of bias. Secondly, the issue of having people who are above the board incorruptible judges. Remember that the same judges you are talking about are also product of the society. But we must be very, very careful to make sure I could remember a novel I read when I was in secondary school, the incorruptible judge. I don't forget that. And throughout my years in practice till today, I've always remembered that novel we read in the school, the incorruptible judge. It takes a lot. It takes courage and boldness to be an incorruptible judge in Nigeria because of the interference of the executive. For me, the judiciary should correct itself in certain mistakes they've made, especially the adjudicators. Because any government or any country in the whole world, the executive might make mistakes or might fail. The legislature might make mistakes or might fail. But any country that the judiciary has failed, that country is leading to do. We must be very, very careful because remember this saying that the judiciary is the last hope of the common man. Let us not forget that. To draw a parallel between us and the United States. In the case of the United States, the president directly appoints Supreme Court justices directly. And actually, for certain reasons, maybe this person is a liberal or this person is on this side of the ideological divide, you know, the president of the U.S. directly appoints us against our system where it's got to be a recommendation of the National Judicial Council without prejudice to the point you made. I just want to draw this parallel. Now, if in the case of the U.S., for instance, we are the president directly appoints justices, we can still say to a reasonable degree that there is a certain significant level of independence in the U.S. But in our own case where it's upon the recommendation of the NJC and all that, and we are still having concerns about the incorruptibility and neutrality of our judges, what do you think the issue is here? Is it the society? Because like I said, in one case, we see the president directly appointing. In another case, we see the president appointing on the basis of the recommendation of the NJC. But yet we here are more concerned that the perception is that a lot needs to be done, you know, on the part of our judicial system to guarantee transparency and neutrality and so on and so forth. Is it for me? I look at it and I see it as a societal issue. And that was why I said, remember, that even the judges themselves are the opposite produce of the society. You can remember that. Then if you look at it holistically, you see there's something that baffles me in Nigeria. We always make reference to United States, UK, when things are like this. We don't make reference to them when we are supposed to attract the good things from those countries to put it to ourselves. Remember that every country with its own peculiarity cannot be comparing Nigeria with a place like United States or UK in terms of administration or in terms of government. Because these are people that are sane. These are people that know what they are doing.  And not in our own life where people, the major problem we have here today is impunity. And you see, you talked about NJC. NJC, yes, is there. But remember that even if you look at it holistically, if you look at it holistically, NJC somehow is also being influenced by the course of the executive team. That is, if you look at it side by side with Nigerian system, the United States system and even the UK system, you begin to understand that we are doing things differently, entirely differently. Okay, we talked about the President of United States appointing Supreme Court judges. Can the President of United States pick up a phone and call the Supreme Court judge that he has an interest in a matter? It cannot happen because everybody's doing money talk. Even the phone calls you make, he's doing money talk. He cannot have him be here, a governor, even a chairman of a local domain can pick up a phone and call a judge. And it becomes another story, all of a sudden, look at some serious judgments we've had in recent times. Look at the case of female states, for example. So what are we saying? So what do you think in terms of character? I mean, definitely your point is solid. Everybody in the country is a product of the society. But then if you look at the judges we've had, or the justices we've had, people like Adito Kumbha Demola, Justice Oputa, Fatai Williams, and so on and so forth, that golden generation, where many of them even became international jurists, what was happening at that time. And mind you, Barista justices, you also remember that they functioned largely in the military era. In the military era, when there was no, I mean, no rule of law, no democracy, none of that. But some of them became internationally acclaimed jurists. So what have we missed? And what can be done, even though the elections are just 25 days away. But are there some things from your perspective that we can still do, you know, to try to begin to go back to that era of this eminent jurists? Yes, truly speaking. First of all, I look at this from the angle of character. Because today, for example, with our mission was, for example, magistrates and judges are nowadays appointed by, I'm from human states. A certain time in human states, magistrates in human states, we are appointed by just a text message from the CJ in collaboration with the governor. So you see, when they have messed up the system, that is just the truth. You talked about the era of Opputa. Opputa, JSC, or blessed memory. I used to call him the log enemy of Africa. I met him one on one when he was alive. I learned a lot of things from him. Today, who can we have an Opputa again in this country? And that era, these are people that lived above us. These are people that wanted to make name. These are people that are not, you know, interested in your billions and millions of Naira. But today is all about what are you going to gain? As I speak to you, my brother, most of our investigators today try to lobby to be appointed to go to Tebuna. Is it supposed to be so? It's no longer about making them for yourself and making them for the judiciary. It's about self-induced influence, what you think you can make up. And that's why I talked about Karata. Remember, I talked about the incorrigible judge. What are the kind of people we are bringing? Because when you talk about dedication, it's one of the most suspicious things you can talk about. Judges, the lives of people like the hands of these judges. They try murder cases, they try manslaughter and so many other cases. And even the issue of Tribuna, the whole nation, a whole state is relying on them. And again, let me also say this. You see, we should not stay away from the truth. That is what is, the court can make judgments or can deliver judgments based on public morality, public safety, and security. You don't make judgments, you cannot enforce them. You can make judgments that will be anti-people, that will cause a problem in this society. Then are you a problem-sover or a problem-creator? We must understand the truth. The time of them. We are not like this. What has gone wrong in this era? Before you become a judge or a magistrate, people must know your Karata. Let's go to Barrister Abu Merozara. The fact that the United Nations has said, let me not use the word warned, but they have said that 2023 the judges or whoever is in charge of the legal angle to whatever will happen in February and March should be careful and do the right thing. It means that the world is watching us. Obviously the world always watches us.  So the world watches us and whatever happens in Nigeria will trickle down to other African countries and by implication the entire globe. So a simple question is this thing that they are advocating, this thing that the United Nations is asking for, is it doable? If it is doable, what are the things that must be put in place before the elections and immediately after the elections? Go ahead. Thank you very much, a good friend. In case you are looking for the name. In my view, the United Nations personnel in Nigeria, to whom the statement is attributed to, they have not said anything really new. I recall at the inauguration of the election tribunal panel, the President of the Court of Appeal did give an admonition on the need for the selected judges to add through to their votes, be fair minded and not to be swayed by other considerations. We also have to remember that the judges swore on votes that would do good to all mana of men, irrespective of whose votes is gold. To one way, to one way vote and pray that the judges would act through to the vote of office and dispense justice according to the facts of the case before them and the law and not allow themselves to be swayed by other considerations, namely ethno-religious consideration or to fall under the undue pressure of politicians. You recall some time ago when the Chief Justice of Nigeria had to more or less, you know, he shall fail to the Nigerian public calling on politicians to stop putting pressure, undue pressure on the judiciary. The main problem we have are the politicians. The Partitioners amended Electoral Act 2022 and the Constitution and all other laws are very clear and simple. But the politicians will refuse the Electoral Act. They will refuse to do the right thing. There's no internal democracy among the parties. The political parties will come up with guidelines. The guidelines are there themselves formulated. The political class will not abide by it. When the recklessly breached provisions of the guidelines and the law, they now begin to put pressure on the judges. That is where you begin to hear of cases of some person personally judiciary being corrupted. So I think the right quarters to which a statement and a commission to be directed at are the politicians in political class. They are the ones who recklessly with impunity disobeying and flat, extra provisions of Electoral Act, the Constitution and all other laws. We're a little bit confused here, Barisa. We're a little bit confused. We're a little bit confused.  And the thieves are stealing and then the families of the thieves or the thieves themselves are putting pressure on the legal or judiciary to make sure that they don't go to prison. And then you are saying that we should not direct the need to abide by the laws to the thieves instead of the institution that has been put in place to make sure these thieves get what they need to get for breaking the law. I don't know how I will take my complaint to the politicians who will always put pressure to make sure it favors them when I have a body that should make sure these politicians pay for the wrongs they do. There's a Electoral Act. It's not for the politicians to interpret. It's for the judiciary, for the legal luminaries like you guys to interpret and send them to jail if they have to go to jail. Why do we have to take it to the politicians again? Because it favors them. They will not do anything about it. So our question is why is it seeming like the judiciary is a bulldog without his teeth? What are the constraints that need to be removed for the judiciary to function the way it should function? That's our question simply. Well, you've raised a number of issues. Let me start with the last question. Like my later friend, Justice, said the first thing to do is to have a complete independence of the judiciary in terms of certain national autonomy. You recall a couple of years ago there was a strike action and backed up on by the judiciary office on the basis of a national autonomy of the judiciary. In fact, the chief judges of the various states on the federal high court and even the chief judges of Nigeria will have to go cap in hand again the executive to provide funds for the administration of a justice system needs much to be desired. It exposes them to a possibility or place in a position to be manipulated or controlled. Whereas if the judiciary is there to draw their funds directly from the consolidated revenue fund without reference from the executive, then their independence would be more or less guaranteed and enhanced. Secondly, the mode of appointment essence to the judiciary is still working in progress. You will find out by and large starting from the magistracy up to the highest level from time to time questions are asked as to the quality and the capacity of personnel appointed as that budget. It's still working progress and I know that the NJC they keep on reviewing the rules regarding the qualifications and the character content expected and required of persons aspiring to the position of judges. And then totally you have to bear in mind that the judiciary cannot divorce itself from the society that we live in. By and large you find that there has been a gradual descent into more or less that we use the word ignominy in all facets of Nigerian life. The executive, the legislature, even members of the society, morality is gradually waning. Impurity, lawlessness, might is right, a right and arrogant display of power. Ethnicity, religious bias is my brother, is my sister. All these factors they come to go play. Nigerian judges are human beings. They don't live in the moon. They live without hair. They pass through all the vagaries, all the is and norms and it's from and we take the society that you recruit the personnel. So it will be nearly impossible for you to express that judges behave like Jesus Christ. I will be super human, super human beings. They are not from the moon. Selected from about us. So by and large the negative aspect that you see manifest themselves in the judiciary is a reflection and manifestation of the type of society that we live in. Okay Justice, sorry Barista if I just quickly come in here and thanks for your perspectives. You made a very interesting point which has to do with the character and actually Barista Justice also said something similar. The character, integrity, competence of those who are of some of those who are appointed onto the bench. But there is also the submission by some observers that very competent persons, legal practitioners who have distinguished themselves when being offered the opportunity to become judges or justices, they don't want to accept it. They would rather prefer to continue their practice. They don't want to go onto the bench. Don't you think that if competent people, I mean your colleagues, you who practice in the legal profession, if you turn down opportunities to go and sit on the bench, we are not going to solve this problem? Yes, you are correct. Absolutely I agree with you. But unless you improve the positions of service of judges and they are sure of independence, freedom in the discharge of their individual function. More and more qualified persons will not continue to decline in the bench. Why would you want to leave your lucrative practice and not go to the judiciary? And life becomes difficult for you.  They have personal needs. They have children. Those who go to school, have you heard that children's who face? What happens to them after they are made? So that is why it is essential that the conditions of work of judges all over the country to be improved tremendously. When they are more or less isolated from the normal vagaries that afflicts other members of material society, then the temptation to be sought into, to pervert justice because of some peculiar consideration will be removed. You cannot expect to appoint a judge. And he does not have a house to stay. He does not have a car. I will take him to work. He has to worry about fueling his generator. He does not have access to proper law libraries. He has to rely on his personal own efforts. I must command some states in the aspect of welfare of judges, state like Lagos. What I would recommend is that the NJC working with the conjunction with the federal government should look into the question of the welfare of judges. Okay, Barista, let's just move very fast now because of time. Well, it appears that no matter how we do it, no matter where we go, there must always be someone who we are begging to pay the piper and he who pays the piper dictates the tune. Something needs to be done by the legal practitioners themselves to make sure these autonomy really comes because if you keep asking the state governments or the federal government to do something about the welfare, in fact they're listening right now, which means like people have said, poverty has been weaponized so that you get the people to do your bidding once you know that they are hungry enough. May that not be what is happening in the legal profession and the judiciary? But right now we are concerned about the elections. The forthcoming elections 24 days left now because today is the first. We have just four or 23 days to prepare for it and on the 25th we're having a presidential election. Now let me come to you Justice Uhuebo. If we take the Oshun scenario for instance, do we even have hope for the 2023 election as it is? Because we've seen the judgment in Oshun and some of us still do not understand what happened there. We would like to have your take on that. You mentioned earlier on what happened in Imo state till today. It's a legal abracadabra. I do not understand how it happened where someone from the third before position became the governor. We don't understand. So let's just take your, let's get your take on what happened in the judgment regarding the Oshun election where a Demola delegate was, was, okay, or yetula was pronounced as the winner. Give us your take on that briefly so that we can also take from Osara. You know why I'm laughing is because first of all as lawyers, I, I overheard when we were discussing with your colleague in the studio there. And for now we may not be able to discuss fully about it because the matter is still in court because I know this man has approached the court of appeal for, for that reason. And that's why in the wisdom of the judicial system we have three layers. The first one, the second one, and the third floor, which is after that you cannot appeal to God. But fully speaking, every Nigerian was surprised at judgment, just like what happened in Nigeria in Imo state. And that was why I made the comment. That was why I say this thing, that you don't truncate the hopes and the lives of the people. And secondly, remember, I say that most times, even when we read, we read the laws, even when law school and all the rights, especially in law of thought and all the rights, you see that judgments at times can be given for stability of the society, for stability of the society. So this has been what has happened in Osho. I am so, I am so optimistic that by the time they get to court of appeal, any abnormally would be corrected or might be corrected. But the truth is this, you see, when you leave some of these things, just like we have been saying to the hands of people that just try to be in the bench by all means. I'm sorry to say, but I have to say this. Today, I am also saying, like when my little friend said to politicians, I can't blame it on politicians because if you have this, if you have taken yourself out to become an educator, whether a magistrate, whether a judge or whatever, provided you are an educator, you must distinguish yourself. You have to live above board. You are not to seem to behave like others. You are not to seem to within like an ordinary Nigerian because you are not a separate person. The lives of many are in your hands. Whether the issue of finance or not becomes immaterial because for you, you know, when you know of your risk and you decided to take the risk, there's nobody in Nigeria today that does not know that the financial stability of initially is not that palatable. But once you have accepted to take it, you must. That's a volatile, not fit injury. And when you know of your risk and you decided to take the risk, you cannot rely on the fact that because that initially it's not you were taking care of. You now want to go there and make yourself of. No. And that is where the issue of credibility, integrity and your person begins to stand. I asked him, what is the difference between a judge and a lawyer? He answered me. He said that a judge is somebody who after long standing in the back is called to sit in the bench. I still remember what he told me today. He said after long standing in the back is called to sit in the bench. For you to be called to sit in the bench, which means there is something that will have been seen about you that you must distinguish you. What I'm trying to say now, if you look at what they are showing in the tribuna and all the like you said, if you read that judgment very well, you might discover or figure so many things. But it's not an issue we'll discuss here because this is not the best for us to discuss such matter. We're still watching and we're still waiting. I would still want to know what will happen. Yes, please. Just one more question for Barista Osara. It does appear as if the electoral process in Nigeria depends significantly on a judiciary. Some people have raised this issue and they have said that of course it is expected that if there's dispute or whatever in an electoral matter it naturally should go to court. But that in our own case it's like the courts have become like INEC. They have actually become an integral part of the electoral process itself. And that this is not healthy. Is there something that can be done to diminish? I know first of all that most of our politicians will not accept defeat. So willy-nilly they will always go to court. But other than that, is there something that can be done to actually make sure that the judiciary is not that much engaged or involved in an electoral process? Thank you very much. Thank you very much. You have to take into consideration the fact that when there's a conflict, there's an agreement in a constitutional way. That's why under the criminal session 6 of the court's judiciary, what we create is a dispute between individuals, between citizens and governments. However, and it's a fact of life that it is normal to have issues before to go to, is it judiciary? Is it judiciary? So I still make this appeal. The only way that we can reduce the intervention of the judiciary in the electoral process is if the political actors, if they learn to play by the rules, they learn to play by the rules. The provisions of the electoral act 2022, they are very clear, very simple. All the political parties, they have legal departments, they have legal advisors, they are all educated, they can read the constitution, they have guidelines and provisions. But it's just that the torso for power and control of power is such that politicians, they are ready to do anything to show us to grab power. So the deliberative flouts, their own rules, flouts provisions of the electoral act, and the only records is to go to court for resolution. And by and large, if you take a look at the performance of the judiciary from 1999 up to date, you can say fairly that the judiciary has discharged itself relatively well. This is in spite of the reservation that most of us have regarding the OSHO results, and including that of Akbabiu, the recent judgment of his Supreme Court in the Akbabiu senatorial ambition. Because most of us, we are still trying to understand Irashola because we saw Akbabiu contesting for presidential primary ticket of the APC. And we knew that the second DIG had already been selected as the senatorial candidate of the party in Akbabiu state. And then the judge of the Supreme Court says that the political party have, it's an eternal affair of the political party. And we are wondering, we are waiting to spread the details of that, but better that we see Irashola. And now I understand that Senate President Lawan is planning on the body to prove out. So the body is on the political approach. It should learn to play by the rule. I am not for restricting access to the court by any of anybody, whoever is aggrieved. Because in grievance, in terms of electoral practices or business relations or interpersonal affairs, the only place to go as prescribed under the equations of circumstances of our constitution is to go to the courts. How much we can take? Well, we talk legal matters, especially we that do not really understand the legal angle to everything would like to dig and keep digging and keep digging. But we do hope that this 2023 general elections will not bring as many cases as we've seen in the past. And even if they do, we do hope that the judgments will be speedy enough so that governance can start right away. We'd like to thank you gentlemen for coming on the show, hoping that we are going to connect with you again, even before the general elections or immediately after. Thank you so much for coming on the show. Thank you for having me. Thank you. It is my pleasure once more. Okay. Well, we'll take a short break now for the news. And when we come back from the news, we'll just take what the guests have said and some other issues that are bedeviling us, if I may use the word, in Nigeria right away. So don't go away. Stay with us.


Because everybody's your prospect with PNC. How do you, I've been accused before, people have told me, and I've gotten better, this is when I was younger. Landon, you're always settling me, man. So how do you build relationships? How do you walk that line? Do you have any trips? I mean, obviously we can use our wisdom, but do you ever take trips on how to leverage your network, but also not be prospecting everybody all the time? And what's that line of working your warm market and how do you feel that out? Is there anything you could shift? I have a three-step system that I usually do before I pitch somebody, whether it's a prospect or an agent or anyone. So I'm going to have three 20-minute conversations with them about something personal, or just personal. So like Cody the other day was at a Duke game. If I didn't know Cody and I saw that, I'm not a Duke fan.  If I wanted to build my relationship with Cody, I would upset that and had a 20-minute conversation about nothing. And then after I have three of those, maybe four of those, if I decide I want to work with you or I want your business, that's when I go into it. Because by that time, we've already built the relationship. But for an hour, we've had three separate conversations that lasted a minute. And we're now best friends. Or I want to be your best friend. And then I'm going to work with you or I'm going to your business. That's a little better than spamming somebody to death. Yeah. And I'm picky with it. I have some people, I want to make sure, with Pete here, I knew that I wanted to work with Pete. It wasn't a recruitment thing. It was, look, I want to work with you. We need to do this and this is a great place. Come hang out. Worst case, we get to hang out for a few days. So that's really what it was. I like surrounding myself and bringing on people that I want to spend time with. I like that. I'm going to start thinking through that when I'm trying to build a relationship with someone in general, that's solid.  Come on, that doesn't work. No. I've never recruited on comp or contracts or anything else. So I just build a relationship. You don't get on LinkedIn and just fire out message after message. If that's the value, you can always find something better. Yeah. Probably. Yeah, it's when does the madness end? There's only so far that you can go, right? Yeah, exactly. Yeah. And there always is something better somewhere. And the people who are constantly looking for it are going to find a reason to go here or there or do this or that. But if you have that relationship with them and you've maintained it, you can't put a price on that. That's good. Who's the one person that you have the best relationship with that we know but that I didn't know that? Taylor? I don't know if you know that or not. That's good. I love me some dobby. He's a good friend of mine. Those are good dudes right there. Good guys, man. Yeah, really good. I'm trying to think outside of it. Mike Newton's a good friend of mine. I didn't know that. He's also a state fan. So he's one up on you, Brody. But yeah, but Taylor and Mike and then Michael and Mike McCormick too. They're all great dudes and stuff. And I love talking to them. And we can talk shop a little bit more too because they're a PNC as well. So sometimes when I start rambling about PNC life, they just start to look confused and don't know my terms and stuff and everything with it. So it's nice to have somebody in the independent market that I can talk to about PNC and stuff. Well, Pete, you said that I don't know if this was on the podcaster before, but Jared got a policy out of the bartender the other day, which is, haha, that's funny. But really, that's a skill to be able to get into a real conversation with a human being as you're crossing. Do you have any icebreakers that you typically use, or is there any little tricks that you've? I mean, not that we're always selling people, but what have you found that's worked well in those situations? Make somebody else talk. Don't talk about yourself. What do you do? Where are you from? How'd you get here? Nice to meet you. Are you going to be working here next year? Are you going to be doing this next year? Who do you have your insurance with? Are you happy with that? I try to make somebody else talk as much as possible. I think really. Not to give away your trade secrets, but Jared used like, it was almost like a survey approach.  I walked over, you know. And he asked him like three or four questions, and he was like, just out of curiosity, where do you have your auto insurance or something like that, like I'm a state farmer, progressive, or something. It's like, you shop it? Yeah, every once in a while. Wear, you know, whatever. It's like, would you like me to be your agent? And the guy was like, sure. I was like, oh my gosh. You should have got that on video, Pete. I know. I know. Next time we're filming either the Uber ride or dinner, or you just need a GoPro attached to your head. There we go. That's very interesting. It's hard for me to talk about a process, because really like, I'll spend a few minutes and like read the person, you know, because different people are different. If I've got this alpha male that I'm getting ready to pitch, you know, I'm not going to say that to the same I would. It's a 20-year-old guy, you know, just still in college.  But you weren't afraid to ask for the business either, which is really, I think, half the battle, you know. It's awesome. You got to have it by law. It might as well be with me. That's true. That's right, dude. That's right. That's your motto. Hey, we've considered, I want to get your guys' opinion because I know you'd be phenomenal fits for it. We're considering doing like a power networking retreat. Ooh, nice. And by invite only. I think that's a great idea. You bring a lot of, you know, key people into the same room. Like craziness is going to happen. Dude, for real. I think that's a great idea, Cody, too, because like so many people are either on an island in this industry themselves, unless they go to like 8% nation or something like that, right? They're on an island either themselves or even on an island within their own organization, right? They stay so closed off to everybody else, which is so silly. So I think that's awesome. If you got like one or two nuggets in something like that, it's worth, it'll pay dividends in the future. Exactly. Dude, and you know what? I flew Red Eye to 10X3. Yes. And I don't know who reached out to who, but I knew you were there. And we get to see each other the last day at 10X3 in Miami. I flew Red Eye, got there like 7 a.m., barely got tickets, you know? And Pete was down on the floor, you know, at the probably the biggest conference in the world, you know? So this dude, both of them, power networker and you know, Pete's always, I can tell you believe in events, man, because you guys have always supported 8%. You brought it up several times today. You show up, you know? You guys were both there this past year, which is humbling and awesome and really cool. What is it about events that you show up? I think one from a networking perspective like is an absolute no-brainer. I mean, you mentioned 10X, right? Or even yours, where else are you going to get a thousand other people? Or in the case of 10X, like 30,000 people, right? That you could possibly network with, it's so silly to think like, I'll give you an example of ROI, right? On 10X. So I paid, it was my birthday, my 30th birthday that weekend, and I was at growth kind of like a weirdo. So that's one, I don't really care. But I paid probably a total of $5,000 between ticket, plane ride, right? Whatever. I think I wrote nine or 10 policies, right, from it. So there's immediate ROI. I found my marketing team and I recruited six agents. Like, what?  Or go multiple times a year to all different ones? Like the money doesn't matter. I don't want to like come off pretentious, but like, man, it's like five grand to make exponentially more in the future. I was a slacker, because I flew red. I didn't sell, I didn't do anything while I was there, except for a CU. You had a lot of other things going on beforehand though. That's true, thanks bro. So get in. That's crazy. Who'd you sell policies to? Dude, I sold policies to people. So my now fiance, it was my girlfriend at the time, went to like the ladies night, right? And she met like three or four women and naturally the women want to go out. So they brought all the men. I closed all of them. She took me a couple of weeks to like get on, you know, Skype calls and do the apps and stuff, but eventually they all got a policy. That's awesome. That's awesome, dude. Man.  I had a revelation the other day when I went to the Dallas game with you guys. And there's a hundred thousand people in the stadium. And I'm looking at it and I'm like, every single one of these people have home insurance, auto insurance, a lot of them have life insurance.  You know what I mean? And whenever I was in college, we walked right past the insurance booth and laughed at it. I'm not going to insurance. You kidding me? Yeah, he was one of those guys. Landon to your point too, like from a mindset perspective too, like I get so upset when like both slightly angry and like emotionally upset when the agents like down in the dumps, we're in the only industry where you can sell anybody. Yeah. You're not selling Ferraris or laptops or whatever, like anybody is your prospect. That's so baffling, you know? I mean, and the insurance premium that's coming out per head in that stadium, when you take the family and the home and the auto and the boats and the rentals and the kids and the health, it's like good grief. That's like, there's just, I just remember looking at those numbers to be like, oh my gosh, that's why I'm in the right industry. Cause I'm not licensed. I'm not an insurance agent. I'm just a marketing guy before I met that guy. And I used to tell people, there's only two industries I don't want to touch and it's insurance and real estate, you know? And so now here I am in the insurance industry and just good grief, the opportunity. So we'll, sometimes me and my agents will go to lunch together and stuff on the way there, you know, we'll be sitting in the stoplight and I'll tell them like, you know, just look at all that money right now. Just wait for you to forget it.  I got five books that every new insurance agent should read. Go watch that, grab the books. See you over there. When you read a book, when you go to an event, when you listen to a book, when you go to a mastermind, when you buy a university,


I know it's getting a little late, so I'll try to do this really quickly. So my name's Lynette. I work with Girls in Tech. I'm a Girls in Tech board member. So I actually started out with Girls in Tech as a volunteer. And then what I found really most valuable was the number of opportunities that I got to meet really cool people and, you know, attend really fun events that I could learn a lot. So really I'm just here to talk to you a bit about what Girls in Tech does. So which actually ties in really nicely to the theme of today. Girls in Tech do similar things, but obviously today's theme is about inspiring, uniting, and empowering women. So Girls in Tech is actually a global nonprofit that seeks to eradicate gender disparities in high-tech industries by engaging, educating, and empowering women who are passionate about tech, right? So we are called Girls in Tech because we want to operate with the spirit of a girl, you know, fearless, lively, and determined. In saying that, however, men are still welcome, right? So it's not just for girls. Actually, in fact, one of our board members is actually a male, which is pretty cool. So we're headquartered in San Francisco with about 60 local chapters around the world and over 100,000 members. And so because we're volunteer-based, we're actually looking for amazing volunteers who want to get involved in these great causes and events and, you know, to really learn. And a couple of events that we've run, you know, we have a mentorship program. We've done AWS workshops, Facebook, hackathons, et cetera, et cetera. So if you'd like to be a part of it, please let me know. I'll be around for a little while. So this is also my details. Feel free to reach out. And if you want to know what Girls in Tech, what we do and how we do it, follow us on any of our pages. Everything's on there. Thanks, guys. Hello, hello. Women who quote members, raise your hands. Whoo! Cool. So women who quote connects amazing women engineers such as yourselves around the world who unite under one simple notion that the world of technology is better with women in it. Our mission is to inspire women in technology to excel in their tech careers. We are a meet-up group and our leads are volunteers who grow their leadership skills by organizing events such as study groups, speaker sessions, panel events, workshops, and hackathon. We help and encourage our members to give back to the committee by giving talks and workshops as well. And together we create a networking opportunity for professional women to learn from each other. We have a Facebook group and you can sign up to our women who quote newsletters to enjoy perks such as scholarships and subsidized conference tickets, not just in Singapore but around the world. So do join us at our events and let us build a fun and wonderful community together and feel free to contact us via email or messenger or meet-up messages for any queries or for any help. And we are here to provide support and to show each other that we are not alone in our tech journey. So thank you. We will quote members, raise your hands. So I only have one slide guys, don't worry. I know you all have been here for a long time so I'm going to hope to be interesting in one minute but I'm not sure where my slide is. So it's okay. So my name is Nurul and I'm the founder of the Cadet Project. And what we want to do at the Cadet Project is we're trying to get more minority and Muslim women in tech. A lot of the conversation that we've had and even today has been around women. But when we talk about women and when we're in a room like this and we're looking at the women around us, it's also important for us to ask the question, who are the women who are not in this room? Who are the women that are not on stage or who are not as represented as they should be? And this is an important question for all of us because when we have an organization that is committed to inclusivity and diversity, that's better for everyone. This is a picture from Singapore's first women-only hackathon that we had in July this year. And 50% were minority women, 50% were not. More than 50% had no background in tech and more than 70% had never been to a hackathon. But we built an environment that welcomed everyone and said that we all deserve to be here. If you're interested in what we do, check us out on Instagram and Facebook and talk to me as well. Thank you so much. Thank you so much, Nurul.


The district north bankulu is still designated as a focus district for integrated stunting reduction interventions. To implement these interventions, the research used qualitative methods with an exploratory evaluation study design. The research was conducted between March and June 2021 with the main informant being the head of the public health center, nutritionist, midwife, and other secondary informants such as the head of the nutrition section of the health office. The research found that the implementation of stunting reduction policies through specific nutrition interventions has been successful due to effective communication, position, resources, and bureaucracy. These have been carried out by the health office, poskezmas, nutrition officer, and coordinators of midwifery. The available resources were sufficient, allowing the application of the concept of specific nutrition interventions to be implemented. Additionally, the disposition and structure of the bureaucracy within the health office ran in accordance with the existing bureaucratic mechanisms, ensuring that the implementation of policies could be carried out accordingly. This article was authored by Irwin Kurniawan, Ms. Naniyati, Ms. Naniyati, and Rostica Flora. We are article.tv, links in the description below.


rty is thank you that's a big help I appreciate it so if I can Madam Chairman I'm one of the two commission members that actually live in a historic district I think there are a lot of reasons for creating a historic district really which haven't been discussed tonight but a lot of it has to do with the value to the community of preserving the historic fabric and that's why we did it in my neighborhood and I can tell you it's the best thing that ever happened and we went through the same process and there were people who wanted to be in people who wanted to be out and we tried to draw the lines logically taking that into account and after we created the historic district the people who had originally wanted to be out and we were asked to expand it and that got to be such a big job we never could do it it was too expensive but so I favor this I think that saving this part of historic Durham is important and while I do understand I don't want to burden people who don't have to be in the gentleman who owns two vacant lots your property should not be included and Mr. Gallifanakis your property is excluded and I wouldn't be bothered by taking out the properties that Mr. Dickey has if it meant that we can have a you know tip the balance of the fours and again since this is going to go to council anyway I think it's a good thing I have followed this I attended the public meetings I listened to the people who were for it and against it and so I am for it I am a historic preservationist I believe that the town is richer and better I live in a situation I have appeared in front of the I'm the only person in the room who has appeared in front of the historic preservation commission to get a certificate of appropriateness for his house I've done it three times and so Mr. Gallifanakis maybe you have okay well I have done it and I have not considered it to be particularly burdensome I realize I'm not everybody but that's my experience I will say that I'm a little surprised to learn that even a ramp requires a minor use permit I mean a minor certificate of appropriateness given the fact that it's covered by the ADA and didn't we just change the rules to make it even easier are you sure that's not an administrative approval it is administrative not minor didn't we do away with minors the terms have changed but it's an administrative approval and the other thing that's happened since this process has begun is that we made significant changes to the rules regarding non-conforming properties so that they follow a different set of standards and to make the process in my opinion better for everybody so I'm in favor of this and I have been in favor of this I think our community is better, stronger, richer when we protect neighborhoods like this one this is a vulnerable neighborhood my observation is is that this status has nothing to do with taxes it has nothing to do with property values or the market it does have to do with the stability of the neighborhood it is not it is subject to dramatic change that in my opinion would be undesirable I like the idea that small homes on small lots are available so close to town there's nothing we can do with zoning regulations that are going to affect what the real estate market does and this doesn't do that either I agree with Natalie I'm more concerned quite frankly about the underlying zoning here I think that this entire area ought to be zoned to use since most of its single family home zone it ought to be zoned for single family homes the RUM zoning is over zoning and it promotes instability so my comments will make a remark on that and I thank Natalie for bringing it to our attention but when I just do the math really quickly here about looking at the properties that are for and against your survey was not just properties inside the proposed district boundaries that also took in properties outside many of the people who are against are now outside the resulting boundaries and so the people who are for with one exception inside the boundaries and a great many of the people who are against are outside the boundaries because they were drawn with sensitivity to their interests so I am for moving forward with this with a favorable recommendation and I will vote that way thank you yes other commissioners who would like to speak the chair recognizes commissioner Freeman thank you I also echo Tom sentiment in that recognizing that a historic district is not it's more about the preservation of the community's history than it is about a support it's not it's hard to I'm struggling with the way the conversations going tonight I'm sorry and I just had a question for Chris Dickie actually so I noticed that you're I'm not sure if it's you or your wife who signed the petition initially but I'm I'm wondering if there was just a change of your mind or well originally the last time I was here I explained that when Natalie approached me I said one of the properties my larger property that I do not want that in this district and the only reason why I'm signing this is that I would consider the smaller property to be in that district and then when the properties and the boundaries were drawn they included both of my properties at that particular time and moment I said I do not want to be a part of the district I just want to be clear are you with the boundaries if both properties are excluded now no I'm at this particular time and moment because I am a more informed citizen and with me going around and talking to different people in the neighborhood especially a lot of the elderly that are there that would not be able to come up here and articulate like I would be able to articulate and understand 88 pages of documents and understanding the impact on them I am adamant now that no I don't want any of my properties in there I'm with them right now it's about the community at this particular time and it's not about my personal self-interest so when you say that it's about the community can you say specifically what would be a hindrance for the elderly I'm just trying to understand a little bit I'm just going to say for me well I know four individuals right now in that particular area that I can in walking distance right now that are they wanted to hypothetically change their windows or remove what's aluminum siding on their houses or whatever it's going to be that's going to be a significant burden on them and their lack of understanding in reference to getting that type of things done it's going to be difficult for me and I understand how to do it sitting down and trying to move through that stuff which I'm doing right now saying well what happens if this moves forward I need to go ahead and move forward and do what I can while I can before I can go before Shopa or whatever that's there to do to do whatever I need to do and I would like to say that I think that it's incumbent upon the planning staff to support anybody that needs to do that and that it's not it's like you're it's pitching one against the other and it shouldn't be the case and I want to say that I strongly support having an equitable design and that whatever is needed for an elderly person or anyone who doesn't understand what is included in these documents should be explained thoroughly but that doesn't mean that you should prevent the historic preservation of this community Granted I've heard the stories I know the myths I've been involved in lots of those debates and I hear it this becomes more of an issue of how with this preservation in place we actually work as a city to support our residents so that they maintain their affordability in their homes it's not it shouldn't be one or the other it shouldn't be health care or note or dot like this argument that's being created is similar to the national argument and it's not acceptable because it's not one or the other it's both we need to be able to maintain the affordability you need to be able to provide the supports that are necessary for any elderly person in that in their home to stay in their home with a ramp is necessary windows are necessary all of that should be covered it should be taken taking care of and whatever needed to be done to make sure that they have what they need should be done but that's incumbent of us as a community as a whole being supportive of our neighbors and making sure that we do preserve our history because the history that Natalie spoke of and being the only indeed restricted area in the city that allowed Greeks and Jews and anyone else to own property is the way forward for those black folks in that community to owning their properties and we have to honor that history if we don't we lose it it's the same thing that I noticed in Edgemont I had this conversation with Charlie we didn't agree it's the same thing I noticed in Goldenbelt it's the same thing that you notice in many of the areas specifically of color I just don't want you to give up your your preservation on the basis of the neglect or the abuse or the lack of information like I just just caution if I can say this I I'm not disagreeing or agreeing with what you're saying we just have to beg to differ on this particular matter here and in reference to our understanding of it I'm just doing what I feel like what's in the best interest of me and my family I probably can move through this process my son and my wife could not move through this process okay and that's why I'm here in addition to that if this historic district comes in my area then it impacts my economic benefit for my family down the road I think what happens is that I don't think I can build as high that my family want to do something on that property then it decreases how high they can go up that's unfair to my family it's taking an economic benefit away from my family and I want to caution you in saying that every case that comes before here is a change so you can make adjustments the same thing for the HPC this does not prevent you from doing anything it just allows for a process to make sure that the preservation of this community is held up that is all it does not prevent you from making any changes like that and again I said I respect what you're saying commissioner thank you were the staff comments okay thank you commissioner al turk thank you chairwoman I had a nitpicky question for Mike the survey that you sent out was it just a yes or no are you do your support or not no it wasn't that it wasn't that limited it was yes no or if you weren't sure you weren't sure and then ways to provide comment and there were even some additional questions there wasn't a strongly support or strongly opposed I'm just trying to get a sense it wasn't range was either kind of yes no maybe so okay and the comments I mean we don't have the comments here so it's hard for me to did you get a sense of who commented more what were the comments I mean we've had some fear I think the comments that you're hearing tonight are indicative of what we got in response as most people didn't provide a lot of comments for what we did receive are again indicative of what you're okay on both sides thank you it seems to me like we have an advisory board that focuses on the merits of historic preservation and they have voted in favor but I'm trying to think about what our role as a planning commission is in this case and I'm going to base it on this is just my personal take on it I'm going to base it on what I think the you know the neighborhood wants and based on the data points that I have based on the people who are here today there are three against one for I counted the numbers within the proposed expansion and it's 50 50 so I'm I'm with commissioners Brian and gauche that it doesn't seem like there's overwhelming support for this and I so I think that's going to explain my vote thanks thank you commission or gauche and then commission of Whitley you may be so courteous as to allow commission of Whitley to go first thank you you know I applaud all that came it is important that we speak out in our points of view but what I'm going to note is that we have one community activist one community developer and one son of a congressman that have had two generations of activism in that neighborhood you know Chris I'm going to tell you boss that you're a community activist you're working for the city but you have taken on causes in that neighborhood to make it a better neighborhood people have come into that neighborhood and built what they wanted now they're going to tell the rest of the neighborhood that you can't do anything with your property unless you go through a process I see that being unfair and if I ever had to test the pulse of that neighborhood and you came before me and said this is what's going on I'm going to trust what I hear for someone that has developed property in that neighborhood and provided provided care to a bunch of people and been a someone that's respected for what you've done with your property development if you came to me and told me that this neighborhood doesn't want this I'm going to have to listen you know so you might be three four but you stand for a lot of folks and I'm telling you that I have listened and I plan to vote against this thank you thank you commissioner Whitley commissioner Gauch thank you again chair I'm with the common set of come out you know and the things we've heard during this discussion I think that I've heard exactly what my fear was the whole time which is that this local historic district is really just a way to down zone property without actually having to go through a formal rezoning process if the concern is that the underlying property is over zoned rezone that property if 25% of property owners at the end of the day can carry the day on a local historic district that includes I guess 124 parcels I mean why do we have zoning at all it's just I mean it just doesn't make any sense to me at all I think everyone is entitled to their opinion as to you know what the historic properties are but you know if you if this local historic district doesn't get expanded those who are not in the district but want to preserve their historic property they can do that but the flip side of that is not true that if you if you get included in the district but don't want to be you can't as I think you can't necessarily build as high as you want to as high as the underlying zoning would allow you and that is I think that's a very important property right that should be considered when making this type of decision and since there's not even close to you know 50% support there's no way I can support it thank you thank you commissioner ghost commissioner Gibbs commissioner gosher I appreciate your comments and I and every time the matter of historic preservation comes up you know every single square inch of Durham is historic and everybody deserves the right to preserve their corner of the world and I can understand when a neighborhood gets together and they want to preserve that historic character but if you if the place that you are interested in in my particular case as has been mentioned it is just unfortunate that before the focus was on historic preservation most of those houses those buildings those two business districts are gone and as much as I would like to still have that as designated a historic district you've got to have some buildings or something in order to designate it as such that ain't historic Edgmont is still there as an example and I don't know what the answer is but I can appreciate and I I will just finish by saying did a commissioner go I appreciate it and I will conclude my comments thank you commissioner Gibbs commissioner Busby thank you madam chair on the whole I'm a fan of historic preservation districts when I looked at this without knowing the history I was struck as well as other commissioners by how split the community is and hearing tonight has has led me to be concerned about the situation I think if this community were in support I think it would it should move forward I think it's actually a very good plan but I can't in good conscience support this plan seeing that there is such turmoil in this neighborhood around this proposal so I'm going to plan to vote against it and I do appreciate everyone here being very civil with each other I think all of you proponents and opponents have done a good job over a number of years of being able to continue to talk to each other I hope this is something that can get resolved appropriately I don't think this plan gets us there thank you thank you other commissioners who would like to speak if not commissioner Miller so I'll throw out one thing I think the real tragedy here is is that petitioners followed the rules initiated this this is a zoning change it's the application of a zoning overlay six years and eleven months ago and had this been acted on within fifteen months even of that petition we might have had a livelier discussion of people who were intensely interested at that time but to let any application for a zone change go seven years or three years or two years outrageous and so now we're dealing with something where literally the people who cared most have drifted away who wouldn't give up I'll tell you what no private developer who wanted a shopping center or an apartment complex or a housing complex would have waited a fraction of this time they would have applied for a writ of mandamus to the superior court to compel a decision and I will point out something else too legislation currently pending in the general assembly that is most definitely going to pass that will eliminate the right of a private citizen to initiate a zone change on property they do not own that's the law it's been the law since 1925 in this state it is the law in almost every other state but it will not be the law in North Carolina this will be a citizen's ability to initiate by petition a historic district I'm not even since Durham is one of the places that does that by ordinance it's not actually a statute that'll probably go away too and so we will turn people who are in neighborhoods into passive participants in the zoning process they will no longer be able to initiate that's the tragedy of this case I would have liked to have heard from the people who filed the petition I would have liked to have heard from the people who decided who were given the opportunity to sign it and didn't sign it so I'm going to ask that we move this forward I'm going to make a complicated motion if I may Madam Chairman and I want you to look at your maps if you would and follow along with me can somebody queue up the map that is I guess it's on page 4 of the planning the staff report that shows us the the four in-out areas that were considered by the HPC the areas of consideration plus the petition areas exactly thank you very much so that so if my fellow commission members would look at this map I'm going to give specific street addresses and point out areas and I'll ask staff to assist me I move that we send a historic district forward to the city council for favorable consideration that includes 509 and 577 that very strangely house numbered property mallard can you point those out with the cursor they are the two property that includes I'm talking about all the shaded area that's got the diagonal cross hatching that includes those two properties that would exclude 208 north Elizabeth which is number 4 I believe down here that not yes and that would be a removal from the existing district since that's before us it is before you exclude that from the existing district that would also exclude 311 and 401 Oakwood now would you point those properties out those are the properties next to 3 that property there that property there this property to the north of the street right and I believe those are the properties that belong to one of the people who spoke today and then it would also exclude the two properties that are shaded in yellow one 601 and 603 three north queen and would also exclude the area that is magenta number three do you see that's got I mean Michael yes so it's yeah I'm sure there's an address for that but it's marked on the map as three if seems to me if we exclude the property at 601 north queen that removes some of the impetus to include three and we know that that property is now got a very modern house on it that would be non conforming and the lot behind it is vacant I went and looked at all of these properties today so I don't see any reason to burden those properties with the historic district so that is the district that I would like for us to recommend the city council to consider of course they will consider the recommendation of the city and all the comments that citizens would make but I would like for that to be our recommendation it will result in a historic district that contains the largest number of people who responded yes to the survey and exclude the largest number of people who indicated opposition so that's my motion thank you very much may I get clarification on that and there's some properties that were left out that I want to get clarification on yes I'm not including the rest of two okay so what I understand is that you're making a motion to approve the area as petitioned except for the following excluding area number one which is 601 and 603 north queen excluding area number three which is 312 Oakwood and the vacant property next to it but it's detailed in your report number three the two properties 311 and 401 Oakwood the Chris Dickie properties exactly and then from the the girly street properties in area two those four properties the girly street properties yeah I'm not including those I'm not excluding them but do not they have been noticed for inclusion so all these have been noticed for inclusion thank you for correcting that's why it's important to note that so of to include only the mallard properties and exclude all the others and then from the existing district exclude four got it all of the specific the identified areas were that's a question yes that motion has died for lack of a second I would like to make a counter motion I'm sorry I had not asked for a second so that was I was trying to get clarification on all of those specifics so if I could finish that that was the initial motion and then let's see if it dies so is there a second but I can make a substitute motion yes you can make a substitute motion I had not asked for a second I realize that we're still trying to clarify Commissioner Miller's motion but I will put a second on it just to make it yes the substitute motion is that that it's the it's the position of the counter I mean the planning commission that we vote every motion affirmative so I would like to present a motion to pass the preservation plan amendment x 1 0 0 0 0 3 that we approve well that's the motion is there a second we're the favorable recommendations but you have to choose which properties we I would like to second the substitute okay then the second the substitute motion is a motion that we will deal with well then I have to ask for clarification which properties are included so it is a complicated one so I will walk you through in questions so there's the petition that's shaded there's the petition that was submitted and then staff had brought to you these four additional areas for additional consideration and they have been notified for rezoning area one which is actually within the petitioned area itself which is 601 and 603 North Queen are you requesting as part of your motion to include those or to exclude those neither I don't think it's to right of this planning board to give people something that they don't want and their participation shows that right and I think your vote will demonstrate that one way or the other we just need a clarification or is it just as petition has submitted and that's it I still have a substitute motion which has a second and I'm going to go ahead and deal with the substitute motion of objection I don't know what I'm voting on I don't know what the process includes I was going to as presented there isn't anything presented as petition as petition as petition just the shaded area as petition but it does not say anything about any of the other areas that's what I'm hearing right now your motion is just to move approval of the area as petitioned and you are not which does not include areas 1 through 4 well 1 and 4 are in the area right area 1 is in it so you would be including it as part of your motion George you're looking at the wrong man you're looking at the speakers map not the action map point of order we have a substitute motion and we're going to proceed with the I have a motion by commissioner Whitley and a second by commissioner Harris that we vote on changing the zoning zoning map changes for item number Holloway street local historic district expansion item number x 1 0 0 0 0 3 as petitioned and you are ready for the question one question for clarification if this motion fails then do we go back to the original motion make that clear if it fails so then we will vote on the original motion commissioner Miller present exactly because we have a substitute now it fails will go back to the first that's it Madam chair Additional question I need I need to know what is meant by as petitioned The as submitted as this whole thing here is as submitted or as The petition that's included in here the petitioned area is the petition the actual petition from 2010 that shaded area That's on your map. Okay. Yeah, including area one because I was part of the petition as present as Okay Well question Yes If we plan to oppose this it means that we vote against it twice Yes Mr. Alturk, mr. Ghosh Mr. Brian, no Mr. Whitley, mr.  Absolutely and and commissioner Miller, please correct me if I get something incorrect so the motion is to approve as petition except for the follow with the following conditions or or exceptions to include Within area to 509 and 577 Mallard but to exclude the rest of those properties along girly Street to exclude Or to remove from the existing designation that portion of 208 North Elizabeth that's area number four to exclude Properties 311 and 401 Oakwood, which are the Christy key properties Exclude area number one, which is 601 and 603 North Queen And that's it. Oh and to exclude. I'm sorry and to exclude area number three That is what's on the table Well, I've got it changed the zoning map changed for Holloway Street local historic district expansion x100 003 with identified exclusions and Inclusions and inclusions as stated by staff with identified Inclusions and exclusions as stated by Staff, are you ready for the question all in favor of this motion? Let us have a roll call, please Mr.. Al Turk Mr. Ghosh, mr. Brian. No, mr. Whitley. No, mr. Harris Mr.. Busby, no chair Hyman. No Mr.. Miller. Yes, mr. Kenshin. No Mr.. Hornbuckle Mr.. Van No Mr.. Gibbs. No, miss Freeman. Yes Motion fells 2 to 11 Thank you Thank you Thank You gentlemen Now our next area Text amendments to the unified development ordinance omnibus 10 item TC 1 7 0 0 0 0 One staff, please Thank You Michael stalking. I went to planning department. Hopefully this will be a lot less complicated them What we just Worked on before you is a set of Various technical changes and some minor policy changes To the unified development ordinance we bring this to your attention generally on a yearly basis sometimes once every two years A culmination of comments that we received or issues that we received through the application of the UDO my staff report has has Hopefully itemized the issues to the fullest extent possible without making it a novel Probably the one Semi substantial change to bring to your attention Is the changes to the infill standards where we are trying to simplify and actually make more sense of the street yard infill standards? We are basically what is being proposed is Taking just a look at the block face of For a context area for an infill lot taking a look at the existing or in some cases Recently demolished street yards the shortest street yard On that block face the longest street yard in that block face and then your infill standard can be Your street yard for the infill lot would be anywhere in between those the current standards go through a hierarchy of Semi-complicated if then statements that do not actually get at adequate infill development because at not only are those if then statements generally incomplete in terms of The development pattern, but also it only establishes a minimum So even though you're establishing a minimum you could still set your house back Well beyond what maybe the rest of the block has already established So the in the intent is they're really not being met there. That's probably Although I'd be happy to try to answer any other questions With anything else, but I wanted to bring that aspect to your attention because that's probably of of these changes Probably the most substantial of them and again, I'll be happy to answer any questions Brian Miller Okay, let's go. Thank you chair One question. I'm gonna refer to page five And I'm just trying to get an understanding at the very top of the page number two up there so to Well, maybe you should just explain what it what it's saying. I just want to make sure I have the correct understanding Basically what it is putting specific explicitly saying in the ordinance is that any supportive facilities Access Driveways stormwater improvements for development are considered part of the principal use of that development and will be held to the same Use standards for that development. So if the zoning allows for an office building You can put the access the access can be put in that same zoning But the access can't be put in the zoning that does not allow an office building or an office use. I should say okay, so let me ask this question because I'm aware of At least one location where I believe a stormwater facility is offered areas you is Installed in a residentially zoned area, but it supports a Commercial use on another lot Would that be permissible under this? No, that's so this that's what I think is clarifying that it's been raised in the past and the interpretations have always led towards What's being written there, but staff has felt that it was warranted to be more explicit Okay, and but it's all it's just time on zoning it doesn't have to be on the same parcel No, no, and you usually a lot of time site plans that can be submitted with multiple parcels, right? But it does not have to be okay. Thanks Thank you on page two Paragraph 3.6.2. This is on exempt plaques a Portion of the first sentence has been struck. I want to read what's left Planning director or designee Certification of exempt status is required. Is that really what you meant to have here? Yes, but if it reads oddly we can adjust that okay That's what yeah, well as it was written it didn't make a whole lot of sense to me and then on page 22 Section 10 to paragraph 10.2-3 vehicle parking I have two questions about paragraph D first of all in your list of a Various examples Would motorhomes be included in that? Yes Yeah, you might want to you know, okay And then the other thing is is that these vehicles shall be located to the rear of the primary structure You've just put a requirement in that nobody in my neighborhood including the mayor can meet Why why do you say that because there's no there's no nobody has parking behind the primary structure? That's that's driveways going up to it That's carports in it. They have parking sometimes on the side of the driveway, but not Behind okay, we'll take a look at that But there are there are many residences that do have parking and access to the rear of the primary structure There's there might very well be I'm just telling you I've went around my neighborhood and We can take another look at that provision We can take another look at the provision The chair recognizes commissioner Miller while we're on that subject rather than to go keep going back jumping back I also wondered if so I have a townhouse and it's part of a string of say six or eight townhouses and I want to my I Want to park my RV and assuming that it's that there's no private restriction against doing that I'm not going to be able to get it around behind the building So it is possible that this ordinance will say some people can't park their RV at home Correct the current ordinance already would prevent that it's actually clarifying what the current one sorry prevents Yeah, correct correct correct Well commission Are the other commissioners who would like yes commission or Whitley? Yes Would the planning department like to pull this so do we have time to Straighten out because I Think the I think what has been brought up is minimal and we can we can rectify it I don't see anything major about it if you wish to see it again You're more than welcome to make that motion, but what has been presented so far We have as is very minimal in the corrections or reconsiderations Are the additional questions? Commissioner Miller so These changes make changes to what I call the historical lots exception Which I'm sorry, which changes are we talking about so? Let me see if I can find what page I'm referring to but it's old lots that are of a certain size That were platted before a certain time that you can build on them in the underlying zone Even if they're too small. Oh the Nonconforming yeah, it's not it's in the nonconforming section what I call the historical lots exception Yeah, it's which we've always had some version of correct We're not changing that at all We're just relocating those provisions to make it make sense. Okay. Yeah, I was looking for some a change that wasn't there And it was bothering. All right very good. I'm cool They I make a motion Well, let's see are there any additional questions The chair will entertain a motion Madam chair, I'd like to send forward case TC 17 quadruple 0 1 Forward to the city council with a favorable recommendation Perhaps with a clarification of the language that mr. Brian pointed out absolutely Motion by commissioner Miller second by Commissioner al-Turk That we move item number TC 1 7 0 0 0 0 1 forward with a favorable recommendation and there was an adjustment With with the correct with consideration of the corrections brought to with consideration for some corrections correct. All right Are you ready for the question? All in favor of this motion. Let it be known by let's do a roll call Commissioner al-Turk. Yes Yes Commissioner Brian. Yes commissioner Whitley. No Commissioner Harris. Yes Commissioner Busby. Yes Yes Mr. Miller. Yes, Mr. Kenchin. Yes, Commissioner Hornbuckle. Yes, Mr. Van. Yes Commissioner Gibbs. Yes, Commissioner Freeman. Yes Motion passes 13 to 1. Thank you. Thank you We have we'll following them. Is there any unfinished business? No, is there any new business? No Motion to adjourn


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