Hey everyone, welcome to this CUBE conversation featuring Ahana on your host, Lisa Martin. I've got two guests here with me today. Stephen Mead joins us, the Presto Foundation Governing Board member, co-founder and CEO of Ahana and Girish Baliga, Presto Foundation Governing Board Chair and Senior Engineering Manager at Uber. Guys, thanks for joining us. Thanks for having us. Thanks for having us. So, Stephen, we're gonna dig into an unpacked Presto in the next few minutes or so. But Stephen, let's go ahead and start with you. Talk to us about some of the challenges with the open data lake house market. What are some of those key challenges that organizations are facing? Yeah, just pulling up this slide, what we see is that many organizations are dealing with a lot more data and very different data types and putting that all into, that's traditionally as the data warehouse, which has been the workhorse for VI and analytics traditionally. It becomes very, very expensive and there's a lot of lock-in associated with that. And so what's happening is that people are putting that the data, semi-structured and unstructured data, for example, in cloud data lakes or other data lakes, and they find that they can query it directly with a SQL query engine like Presto. And that lets you have a much more flexible approach to dealing with getting insights out of your data. And that's what this is all about and that's why companies are moving into a modern architecture. Girish, maybe you can share some of your thoughts on how Uber uses Presto for this. Yeah, at Uber, we use Presto in our internal deployments. So at Uber, we have our own data centers, we store data locally in our data centers, but we have made the conscious choice to go with an open data stack. Our entire data stack is built around open source technologies like Hadoop, Hive, Spark, and Presto. And so Presto is an invaluable engine that is able to connect to all these different storage and data formats and allow us to have a single entry point for our users to run their SQL engines and get insights rather quickly compared to some of the other engines that we have at Uber. So let's talk a little bit about Presto so that the audience gets a good overview of that. Steven, starting with you, you talked about the challenges of the traditional data warehouse application. Talk to us about why Presto was founded, the open source, the project. Give us that background information, if you will. Absolutely, so Presto was originally developed out of the biggest hyperscaler out there, which is Facebook, now known as Meta. And they donated that project to an open source and donated it to the Linux Foundation. And so Presto is a SQL query engine, distributed SQL query engine that runs directly on open data lakes. So you can put your data into open formats like Parquet or C and get insights directly from that at a very good price performance ratio. The Presto foundation of which Girish and I are part of, we're all working together as a consortium of companies that all want to see Presto continue to get a bigger and they're kind of like Kubernetes has an organization called CNCF, Presto has Presto foundation all under the umbrella of the Linux foundation. And so there's a lot of exciting things that are coming on the roadmap that make Presto very unique. Raptor X is a multilever caching system that's been fantastic, Aria optimizations are another area. We, Ahana have developed some security features with donating the integrations with the patchy ranger. And that's the types of things that we do to help the community. But maybe Girish, you can talk about some of the exciting items on the roadmap that you're looking forward to. Yeah, absolutely. I think from Ubers point of view, just our sheer scale of data and our volume of query traffic. So we run about half a million Presto queries a day, right? And we have thousands of machines in our Presto deployments. So at that scale, in addition to functionality, you really want a system that can handle traffic reliably that can scale. And that is backed by a strong community which guarantees that if you pull in the new version of Presto, you won't break anything, right? So all of those things are very important to us. So I think that's where we are relying on our partners particularly folks like Facebook and Twitter and Ahana to build and maintain this ecosystem that gives us those guarantees. So that is on the reliability front. But on the roadmap side, we're also excited to see where Presto is extending. So in addition to the projects that Stephen talked about, we're also looking at things like Presto on Spark, right? So take the Presto SQL and run it as a Spark job for instance, or running Presto on real-time analytics applications, something that we built and contributed from Uberside. So we're all taking it in very different directions. We all have different use cases to support. And that's the exciting thing about the foundation that it allows us all to work together to get Presto to a bigger and better and more flexible engine. You guys mentioned Facebook and I saw on the slide, I think Twitter as well. Talk to me about some of the organizations that are leveraging the Presto engine and some of the business benefits. I think speed, you talked about insights Stephen obviously being able to get insights from data is critical for every business these days. We have a major, major use cases finding the ad hoc and interactive queries and being able to drive insights from doing so. And so as I mentioned, there's so much data that's being generated and stored and to be able to query that data in place at a with very, very high performance meaning that you can get answers back in seconds of time. That lets you have the interactive ability to drill into data and innovate your business. And so this is fantastic because it's been developed at hyperscalers like Uber that allow you to have open source technology, pick that up and just download it right from PrestoDB.io and then start to run with this and join the community. I think from an open source perspective this project under the governance of Linux Foundation gives you the confidence that it's fully transparent and you'll never see any licensing changes by the Linux Foundation Charter. And therefore that means the technology remains free forever without later on limitations occurring which then would perhaps favor commercialization of any one vendor, that's not the case. So maybe Grish, your thoughts on how we've been able to attract industry giants to collaborate, to innovate further and your thoughts on that. Yeah, so one of the interesting things I've seen in the space is that there is a bifurcation of companies in this ecosystem. So there are these large internet scale companies like Facebook and Uber and Twitter which basically want to use something like Presto for their internal use cases. And then there is the second set of companies, enterprise companies like Ahana, which basically want to take Presto and provide it as a service for other companies to use as an alternative to things like Snowflake and other systems, right? So, and the Foundation is a great place for both sets of companies to come together and work. The internet scale companies bring in the scale, the reliability, the different kind of ways in which you can challenge the system, optimize it and so forth. And then companies like Ahana bring in the flexibility and the extensibility. So you can work with different clouds, different storage formats, different engines. And I think it's a great partnership that we can see happening primarily through the foundation of our species which you would be hard pressed to find in a single vendor or a single source system that is there in the market today. How long it was the Presto Foundation initiated? It's been over three years now and it's been going strong. We're over a dozen members and it's open to everyone. And it's all governed like the Linux Foundation. So we use best practices from that and you can just check it out at PrestoDB.io where you can get the software or you can hear about how to join the Foundation. So it includes members like Intel and HPE as well. And we're really excited for new members to come and contribute in and participate. Sounds like you've got good momentum there in the Foundation. Stephen, talk a little bit about the last two years. Have you seen the acceleration and use cases in the number of users as we've been in such an interesting environment where the need for real-time insights is essential for every business. Initially a couple of years ago to survive but now to be, to really thrive. Have you seen the acceleration in Presto in that timeframe? Absolutely, we see there's an acceleration of being more data driven and especially moving to cloud and having more data in the cloud. We think that digital innovation is happening very fast and Presto is a major enabler of that. Again, being able to get drive insights from the data. This is not just your typical business data. It's now getting into really a quick stream data knowing about how customers are operating today. Uber is a great example of all the different types of innovations they can drive whether it be knowing in real time what's happening with rides or offering you a subscription for special deals to use the service more. So in Ohana, we really love Presto and we provide a SaaS managed service of the open source and provide free trials and help people get up to speed that may not have the same type of skills as Uber or Facebook does. And we work with all companies in that way. Think about the consumers these days. We're very demanding, right? What I think one of the things that was in short supply during the last two years was patience. And I think of Uber as a great example. I want to know if I'm asking for a ride, I want to know exactly in real time, what's coming for me? Where is it now? How many more minutes is it gonna take? I mean, that need to fulfill real time insights is critical across every industry but have you seen anything in the last couple of years that's been more leading edge like e-commerce or retail, for example? I'm just curious. Here's to take that one there. Yeah, sure. So I can speak from the Uber point of view. So real time insights has really exploded as an area, particularly as you mentioned with this just in time economy, right? Just to talk about it a little bit from Uber side. So some of the insights that you mentioned about when is your ride coming and things of that nature, right? Look at it from the driver's point of view or now we have Uber Eats. So look at it from the restaurant manager's point of view, right? They also want to know how is their business coming? How many customer orders are coming, for instance? What is the conversion rate and so forth, right? And today, these are all insights that are powered by a system which has a Presto as a front-end interface at Uber.  So you're really talking about production systems running on top of Presto production-serving systems. So coming to other use cases like e-commerce, we definitely have seen some of that uptake happen as well. So in the broader community, for instance, we have companies like Stribe and other folks who are also using this stack, which is very similar to us, based on another open source technology called Pino using Presto as an interface. And so we are seeing this whole open data lake house more from just being about interactive analytics to driving all different kinds of analytics, having anything to do with data and insights in the space. Yeah, sounds like the evolution has been kind of on a rocket ship the last couple of years. Steven, one more time, we're out of time, but can you mention that URL where folks can go to learn more? Yeah, presto db.io, and that's the Presto Foundation. And I just want to say that we'll be sharing a use case at the Starb Showcase coming up with theCUBE. We're excited about that. And we're really welcome everyone to join the community. It's a real vibrant, expanding community. And look forward to seeing you online. Sounds great, guys. Thank you so much for sharing with us what the Presto Foundation is doing, all of the things that it is catalyzing. Great stuff. We look forward to hearing that customer use case. Thanks for your time. Thank you. Thanks everyone. For Steven and Garish, I'm Lisa Martin. You're watching theCUBE, the leader in live tech coverage.


What is up everybody it is Chris from the rewired soul where we talk about the problem but focus on the solution and that's right ladies and gentlemen I am back and another big thank you to my man Charlie for coming over and doing some guest videos but yeah as most of you know I was just on a little vacation right uh with my girlfriend I went to go meet her family for the first time and in this video I'm gonna talk a little bit about what that was like as well as some of the other stuff I did um first and foremost I'm a workaholic I work constantly so this was really nice I'm glad my girlfriend invited me to go out on this trip we actually went because it was her little brother's 11th birthday and uh and yeah like I I work constantly I work at a rehab center we are 24 7365 I work on Thanksgiving I work on Christmas and things like that so it's very hard for me to pull away from work and especially all the stuff I do for all of you on the rewired soul but if any of you listened to my last video you were following me on instagram so you still got a little bit of content first and foremost like what an awesome trip with my girlfriend like this is the first long distance trip that we've done and like I don't get sick of her I don't get tired of her and I ain't afraid to share with all of you like the whole time like you know uh I was just having a great time great conversations having fun singing some songs in the car it was great um but yeah I was like oh man like we've never gone on a long distance trip am I gonna hate her by the end of this but no we had an awesome time but yeah we went up there um it was up in northern California Sacramento area and yeah it was it was great it was great to meet her little brothers I've played some video games with them uh on the xbox with my son and it was awesome meeting them but but these kids these kids and their wwe wrestling video games oh they beat me so bad they beat me so bad but yeah I did manage to get around in Mortal Kombat but that was about it but yeah I got to meet uh my girlfriend's lovely grandmother her awesome mom and yeah we hung out there all week and we did um a little bit of sightseeing and stuff um one of the cool things is one of my best friends this guy right here he uh me and him got sober together my man Sean and he actually just moved up to the Sacramento area so we were able to have dinner with him and his fiance and then we also went up and saw their new place which was gorgeous I wish I would have taken more pictures it was just uh um it was amazing but yeah he's one of my best friends I met him when I first got sober and loved that guy love him and it was great because my girlfriend got to meet him and uh and his awesome fiance so that was really really cool tripling great like everybody was asking me like and my girlfriend like are you nervous are you nervous are you nervous if both of us are like not really like I don't think I'm a bad dude you know what I mean like I wasn't all that nervous you know plus family members love me but for all of you who don't follow my Instagram the last day took a very bad turn very very bad turn so they have two beautiful cats one is Matilda the other one is Jack apparently Jack is a little standoffish but Jack loved me the entire time until like the last two days and I think he had it out to get me the very last day right me and my girlfriend we were gonna wake up early say bye to her brothers as they go off to school and we were going to head to Oakland to Jack London Square take the ferry over to beautiful San Francisco one of my favorite cities on earth but at 4 30 in the morning I had to go to the bathroom and then I decided to walk outside real quick and do my terrible habit of smoking and I go outside to have just a few puffs of a cigarette and I go out and I just see this little freaking furball take off and I'm like wait a second was that was that Jack was that Jack the cat right so I started looking around and I saw a different cat so I'm like okay maybe I wasn't Jack but I'm like freaking out and anxiety is happening and I'm half tired it's 4 30 in the morning it's pitch black outside there's a ton of bushes and I go back inside I can't find Jack right I looked around for 30 minutes while the whole house is asleep and I'm walking front to back front to back front yard backyard front yard backyard right and finally I pick up the other cat to kind of consult me and I walk into the bedroom and I'm just sitting there and I'm like should I tell my girlfriend should I wake her up should I wake Tristan up from her beautiful sleeping stage right and finally I just kind of shook her on the leg I'm like something happened she's like half awake so what happened and I'm like I think Jack got out but I don't know if he's in one of the bedrooms can you go check because I didn't want to like walk into her mom's bedroom that would have been bad so uh yeah the cat was not in the house so the last day of the trip everything's going swimmingly with the family and I lose that freaking cat right so we me Tristan and her mom go look for this cat we're like 30 minutes 30 more minutes so I already looked for 30 minutes now we look for 30 more minutes we walk all the way up the street can't find him we come back inside and like Tristan couldn't go back to sleep I decided to sleep for a little bit refresh and go look for this cat I woke up and I was so mad I love cats so much but like I found myself getting very angry with cats I'm like stupid cats stupid cats why don't they come when you call your name why do they want to take off why don't they just come back right and I was so upset but I went out I got some coffee and I came back I brought Tristan some coffee and I'm worried that her family's gonna hate me and I decided to go look for Jack and I'm driving around real slow her neighbors thought like I was a crazy person but I'm driving around looking for this cat and right before I come back to the house like I look and I see that little furball and I just throw my car into park and I just get out and I'm like all right Jack it's you and me now you and me right and this cat took off so fast so fast look oh and I chased him I chased him my car is like parked somewhere else with the windows down because looking for the cat I book it after this cat and he runs back to the house come inside I'm like hey I found Jack I found Jack and Jack actually went to the backyard and I was like okay cool so he jumped back over the fence and then I go out front to go see if I can find him and then finally Tristan texts me she's like all right you can come back so they put some food at the back door and Jack just waltzes in waltzes in like nothing happened he just went exploring for a few hours so Jack if you're watching this uh anyways now back to the good stuff so one of the things that we did um while we were in uh Sacramento was uh I started buying a bunch of books I started buying a bunch of books right so all those books oh and then I got one for my son Bob's Burgers Matt lives I'm not gonna go through my whole book haul I might do another uh video these are all mental health books by the way and they're great I'm actually gonna link them down in the description below if any of you want to check them out um but anyways I do want to talk about just two of the books real quick um I came across this book if you follow me on Instagram you heard me ranting and raving about how amazing this book is it's called Unbleep Your Brain all right and it's by uh Dr Faith G Harper amazing book so far amazing and I can't wait to review it like she she has this very like just kind of candid way of talking obviously there's some cursing in it but it's great because sometimes I think we take mental health too seriously and uh she's very fun she reminds me a lot of my mom who's also a psychologist but yeah this this book's great um anxiety depression a lot of it has to do with trauma she teaches about neuroscience pick this book up I'm gonna do a full review but just just go buy it just go buy it right now just just stop what you're doing and go buy it so I will do a full book review though then I got so excited about this book that I went out and got this book but actually my girlfriend actually um surprised me with this book this one is called uh this is your brain on anxiety what happens and what helps another book by uh Dr Faith Harper so that is my next one but yeah I could not set that book down so lastly my girlfriend and I we did end up making it to San Francisco we make it to San Francisco on 420 and we go to hate street and like oh my god like it was nothing but weed just nothing nothing but weed at all like everybody they were having like 420 festivals out there and stuff uh we did stop by this amazing vegan burger joint it was awesome and uh and yeah we spent a few hours there we headed um back down through California but we ended up uh stopping in Fresno that's actually my hometown that's where I got sober too so we went through Fresno we had dinner with my lovely mom two of my friends uh one of my friend's wife who I just found out is pregnant and it was one of those weird situations because I saw her like standing like this with a hand on a belly and I was like she pregnant and then she like went to the bathroom I'm like yo Jason she pregnant and she is so congratulations to them um and then my my other friend uh he he got a girlfriend and I got to meet her it was awesome we had Chinese food in one of my favorite places we went out for ice cream and uh yeah it didn't be my girlfriend we stayed in a hotel for the night that my mom so graciously got us and then in the morning this morning um I got to have breakfast with my dad so like it was crazy just in this week alone like uh I got to meet my girlfriend's family um we got to hang out with her friend Shelby and her husband Brandon he whipped my butt in Forza uh that was fun um we saw all of my best friends and she got to meet my parents too like what an amazing trip aside from the cat thing that cat thing really jacked me up but all as well all right anyways I'm back um I hope you were all doing well I hope you were all nice to Charlie I was in the comments too I know you guys were um but yeah I will also uh put in the description down below another link to Charlie's channel awesome guy again thank you so much Charlie um but yeah I'm back I'm gonna get the ball rolling again I'm gonna be doing a lot of new stuff on Instagram I'm kind of taking my Instagram in a different direction rather than just doing all of my like hey here's clips from the YouTube channel like I want to make it completely separate so I'm gonna try that see how it goes so if you're not following me on Instagram make sure you are it's displayed right here again as you can see follow me on Instagram all right but anyways uh if you have anything that you're struggling with if there's any topics that you want me to cover uh make sure you leave them down in the comments below I'm back and I have a whole laundry list of video ideas but as always I'm always here just to help you out to help you out with your mental health all right but anyways I'm glad to be back thanks for watching give this video a thumbs up do me a solid and if you're new here and stumbled across this video make sure you click that little route subscribe button all my videos are meant to help you out with your mental and emotional needs and if you're bored click or tap on one of those thumbnails check out some other videos on this channel all right thanks again for watching I'm glad to be back and I'll see you next time


You know the truth is that as long as there have been people there have been public relations It may not have been called that it may have taken on different forms, but since people you know have existed Somebody's been trying to convince someone of someone else or make a connection with somebody else on behalf of themselves or an organization or whatever And so since the dawn of time there's really been public relations in some form or another and of course That's evolved over over time just as people have evolved over time We've moved from you know press agentry into different forms of public relations But so we're gonna kind of fast-forward and limit our discussion of The history of public relations to the modern history of public relations what we would call a modern history of public relations We don't have time to cover public relations since the beginning of time So we're gonna focus just on what we would define as the modern history starting in about the 1800s and so With that in mind we're just gonna progress through the couple of different stages here of public relations in the modern history So the first kind of stage that we're gonna look at is from the 1800s In this part of the timeline we kind of refer to as press agentry that the primary focus public relations during this time Was just kind of publicity and press agentry and so So when we think about passing press agentry We think about hype tactics and publicity stunts it was all about kind of shock value and What can you do to make a scene to kind of draw people in out of curiosity or because you're you're Putting on this huge event or something like that and it was really just about hype tactics and publicity stunts during that time So we think about people during that time one of the first people to really use Public relations for that purpose to drive to drive their organization to drive their purpose was was PT Barnum You're probably most familiar with PT Barnum from the Barnum and Bailey Circus Of course, he was part of that you may have seen Seen a version of his story in the greatest showman with you Jackman things But PT Barnum was this with this fellow who basically had some ideas and he wanted to draw people in and he needed things that He thought would draw people in and so he created shock value He created these events. He said come see the bearded lady Come see the the the smallest man on earth to ever live You know this guy that he bring in so he put on all these kind of publicity stunts that drew people in and drove curiosity about what they were doing and and then he leveraged that into Greater notoriety for his organization or whatever and so You know, he was he was a press agent. It was his own best press agent You know, he basically said one time there's no such thing as bad press any press is good press in essence, right? So PT Barnum was one of the first real public relations practitioners of that time to use that sort of press agentry Disadvantage we also saw it in the work of the railroads and what we would call westward migration Kind of opening up the United States during that time during the early and mid 1800s To get people to basically move out west to say hey There are things that exist west of Ohio and west of Pennsylvania and not on the east coast The west was pretty sparsely populated It was sort of a you know kind of a no-man's land kind of a free-for-all out there And they really wanted to popularize it so that people would would develop communities there And and that that served the railroads, of course because then they would be able to transport people or transport goods and and things they had they'd spent all this time And money developing railroads for westward use and so now they need the people out there So they can justify having them and and create some business out there So they created this kind of press Effort if you will this public relations effort focused on on press things about talking about how great it was out west and and Offering travel and different things like offering contests and things So the railroads really had a lot of success pushing westward migration again for their own purposes for their they had a goal There they had an objective, but but they used in many ways What we would call public relations albeit specifically press agentry type public relations to accomplish that goal though But to demonstrate what was possible. They really really demonstrated for a lot of organizations What was possible using those types of tactics and strategies? We also did see though some some people really embrace public relations for a sense of social Responsibility thinking here about people like John Muir John Muir was an environmentalist and did a lot of writing and and things about how though the wonder of nature You may be familiar with this famous quote the mountains are calling and I must go That's one of his from a letter that he wrote to his sister. I believe that So but John Muir used public relations to to to share with people the wonder of the natural Beauty of the United States and the need for preservation the opportunities there So he's public relations for social responsibility in that way. We also saw that through Famously through Ida Wells Ida B. Wells was a famous practitioner public relations at that time in terms of using public relations to To share her message about social responsibility and about not only women's rights But the rights of minorities and people like that. So Using press agentry and public relations during that time to start that, you know The that nugget of social responsibility that we see continue and expand today as we will discuss But really got its roots then in that early era in that 1800s era of public relations So lots of things happen in there But mainly a focus on press agentry during that period of time But we move to the next part of the timeline here in modern public relations in the early 1900s through the mid 1900s through about You know through the 1950s and and up to the 1960s or so But you know, we see the what we would call the modern pioneers of our current, you know Definition of public relations people really starting to practice what we might identify as as more full Public relations a more full form of that So some of the modern pioneers that we think about during that era include somebody like Ivy Lee Ivy Lee was a very famous practitioner of public relations and really established on a lot of the sort of guidelines of modern-day public relations He really professionalized the public relations role in terms especially in terms of of public relations counsel He had his own firm, but he provided counsel to a lot of organizations about how they could handle their public relations more effectively They're specifically, you know, their relationships with the public's that they serve and that they that they wanted to To pull in and to have be a part of their organization. You really professionalized that role Gave it value at the executive level in many ways in terms of people recognizing that this is valuable counsel This is not just, you know, people who print up flyers and come up with crazy ideas for publicity stunts and things These can be people these public relations people can can offer a lot of really good input for how we can grow and And achieve our goals as an organization So he really demonstrated that a professionalized public relations Practitioner can really add a lot of value at that executive level and he did start to emphasize that sort of two-way Communication of public relations that it wasn't just a one-way Let me get this out there. So you have it, but it's really understanding who your public's are and and trying to achieve your purposes Through that and reaching those specific people and and developing relationships was another big part of his work in terms of the early pioneering of public relations developing relationships with key figures in those public's with Influential influencers or influential people within those public's and and really establishing that two-way emphasis So I really one of the giants in the development of modern public relations Another is a gentleman named Edward Bernays Edward Bernays who was actually a nephew of Sigmund Freud And so may not surprise you that to find out that he really put an emphasis on scientific persuasion on social science and psychological behavior and and that type of thing and he brought that to the practice of Public relations is scientific methods of persuasion through study through research Specifically through identifying a target audience understanding who is it that we're reaching we're not going to try and reach Everybody in the world with this message or with this campaign Who are we trying to reach and how can we best tailor our message? To that group by doing research by conducting research and by understanding who that audience is but not just their their habits But their psychology and their and those types of makeups right so we do research into those people We tailor a message specifically to that target audience. That was a major contribution of Edward Bernays People were not doing it before that really he's the one who can kind of formalize that professionalize that and demonstrated the value that can come With that type of approach to public relations. So again Edward Bernays another giant in terms of public relations modernization Finally in this garden finally in this love, but we want to talk about Arthur Page as well Arthur Page who was Worked in media worked in in publishing really but was contacted and eventually ended up becoming a major figure in public relations mostly for the stands that he took when people would approach him he would turn down clients and things because He didn't like their approach or he didn't like what they stood for he really felt as though your reputation as an organization is earned through action So, you know kind of that old saying actions speak louder than words, right? He felt the same about companies and organizations that your reputation is going to be earned through your actions And if your actions if you're not willing to line those up if your activity and your actions are not going to line up with what you say you want Then I really don't have anything to do to help you. That's that was his philosophy. He also then again kind of like Ivy Lee really Established public relations as a management function as as something that should be involved at the highest executive levels And not just something that you you send a message down and tell people this is what I want you to do It's not just a directive type thing But these are people that should be involved in the decision-making process as you determine what your goals are what your objectives are And how you're going to reach those public relations personnel and practitioners should be a part of that as part of the management function Finally, I want to talk about Ophiel Dukes right Ophiel Dukes was a significant Pioneer in public relations particularly in public service. He worked primarily in governmental Eventually in governmental positions and really established and demonstrated what public relations can be in terms of In public service also overcame lots of stereotypes regarding race He was one of the very first Notable or or well-known I should say Practitioners of public relations of color who was a minority right because I get in the bias of the United States That time was that that minorities and people of color really didn't have that much off to offer in terms of professional value Ophiel Dukes really Broke that barrier in many ways in public relations was one of the first People of color to really establish themselves as someone of the greatest value and demonstrate that minorities Practitioners have just as much value as as anybody else and can do that So overcame a lot of stereotypes regarding race specifically as he as he pioneered that that Segment of public relations in public service and working through the government and established the value there So these are some of our early modern pioneers through the early 1900s again up through probably about the 1960s And then in the 1960s, but we have what I would call the modern first generation You know now we've got those pioneers out of the way and so it's starting in about the 1960s and moving forward Now we've got people who can build on that those pioneers have have blazed the trail now these first generation of real practitioners building on that can really can really benefit from the professionalization of public relations and the the Notoriety that public relations has gained as and as a value-adding component to an organization So just a couple people want to talk about here just to give you some examples but the first is Harold Burson established a public relations firm and and really his contribution centered on globalization is one of the first PR firms to open an office in in Europe and really understand that there's a global market there and the differences there He also really focused on crisis communication and reputation management and really earned a reputation there for really excellent work his firm Really worked closely with Johnson and Johnson during the Tylenol scares in the early 80s If you recall that you perhaps have read case studies or if you're old enough you remember that I do certainly remember that where someone had laced some Tylenol with cyanide and people died and so there were a lot of Changes that need to be made but the first thing was Johnson Johnson took responsibility for it immediately pulled things did all these things I Communicated about it and really not only communicated well about that crisis But also protected their reputation in in the process as well and a lot of that came from the advice They received from Harold Burson and his firm who was their public relations partner at that time so so really established Themselves as kind of the go-to people for crisis communication reputation management demonstrated Again the value that public relations practitioners can have in that respect as well and and can bring and add value to an organization through those functions the other modern kind of first generation Established public relations person that I want to tell you about is Daniel Edelman Daniel Edelman again had his own public relations firm This in Chicago and really was one of the first people to sort of look at integrating Marketing and public relations who spent a lot of time Differentiating between what those things are and they are different things marketing is different than public relations But Daniel Edelman Edelman was one of the first people to see that you know They are different things But they're so closely connected and have so much value to add to one another that why can't we integrate those things? They don't have to be totally separate functions They can work together and the the synergy between those two things can you know so that the the the Some can be greater than they they would love the parts really in that respect, right? so integrating marketing and public relations and those two functions kind of together and Learning about how they can work together. He also kind of really initiated what we would now call a media tour Which is now common practice people send people out on the road and they they Celebrities do this when they're pushing movies for example They're all over the place they're doing interviews here and on podcasts there and so forth and just doing all this publicity on this media tour Right companies do it all the time. You have the famously Oscar Meyer Wiener mobile rides all over the place The good your blimp is all over the place But I mean that and so things like that would would be the derivative of a media tour Which is really the brainchild of Daniel Edelman people did not do that very much before they certainly do it now But it was an idea that he came up with sending People around to on these media tours in different cities and had great effect the products benefited greatly from that So really a couple innovations there from Daniel Edelman as well. So you see the the kind of these modern first-generation what I would call modern first-gen people Building on what the pioneers established now. We have you know, they benefited from having the professionalization of public relations and and organizations that viewed public relations as a legitimate value-adding prospect for for an organization and they were able to then benefit from that and not have to fight that fight so much as Be able to work on Expanding that then and focusing on specific tactics and strategies and things and and really making an impact in that way So these are just a couple examples of different public relations practitioners who did that over time So, you know and that moved us into you know from the from the 1960s on through kind of where we're at today And we're still obviously this is still an evolving process, right? This is very much an evolving process public relations is continuing to grow when we have things that we need to Improve upon now and improve upon for the future and that will continue the evolution We're gonna get into that in another video. What are some of the future questions of future trends that are gonna be important in public relations, but This should give you an idea of where we're coming from at least in the most recent history So the last three kind of Evolutions what we call evolutionary stages, maybe of public relations. Where do we come from? How do we get to where we are today with the the mindset of public relations and where where it sits today? So if you have questions about about the history of public relations or anything else related to PR Please feel free to email me. I'd love to hear from you there in the meantime. I hope that you will to really Consider this history. It's important to know where we came from both, you know professionally and In a lot of respects and public relations is no different understanding How we got to this point and can be a really Helpful piece of information as we think about what we're doing now and what we need to be doing in the future


Hi everyone, Joe for jazzy's casebreaks.com coming at you with 2022 tops tier one baseball 24 box double header. It's a dual case break random team number three. It's on sale right here too. Nice get a little discount on that. One spot gets you team in major league baseball no combos and obviously all cards ship. Big thanks to this group for making it happen. I appreciate the people who bought their spots straight up and thanks for filling up that one filler that we had to do. Appreciate that as well. Congrats again to the winners and that platinum anniversary break number seven and all 30 baseball teams are in. Let's roll it. Let's randomize names and teams three and a four seven times one two three four five six and seventh and final time. After seven we got martin down to gary three and a four seven times for the teams one two three four five six and seven and final time after seven times we got the diamond backs down to the brew crew.  When we come back, we're going to see if there's any trades. And then we will have the break alphabetized by team. So stick around. We'll be right back. We'll see you on the other side. All right, welcome back, ladies and gentlemen. There was a bit of trade chatter, but in the end, no deals were done. Thanks, everyone, for making this happen.   Here I'm going to leave one of these off to my side right there. You can still see that on camera. It's not going anywhere. And now let's pop this case open. And it's a dual case break. We've got another dual case or loaded up. If you want to run this back, some full spots available and some filler spots available as well. I think we're going to have to do two filler breaks. Or maybe just one. If those full spots go quickly, maybe just one. Take the side of inventory. All right, good luck, everybody. We've got the sounds of Mets at Yankees on in the background. Yankees putting a couple runs on Max Scherzer. All right, it's 2-0. To use this blank card right here with the Jaspie sticker, I'm going to use the blank side. I'm going to slow play some of the hits a little bit. All right, now, Jeremy was asking earlier, who is the NLMVP, ladies and gentlemen? Here's Gavin Lux, 3-23 out of 3-99. Vegas has Paul Goldschmidt as a pretty heavy favorite, minus 3-70. Next closest, his teammate, Nolan Aronado, plus 1,600. That's a pretty wide gulf. That's just what Vegas says. Does that mean that's going to happen? I don't know. That's Gary with the Dodgers. Gets the Gavin Lux who's been hitting the ball well. There's Brandon Lau, 1-88 out of 2-99. That's going to go to the raise. That'll be for Chris. And we've got Tony Perez, tier one talent autograph, part of the big red machine. That's Nestor with the red legs. There are three hits right there. Sometimes some of these boxes may have bonus hits. We can get a fourth hit. Usually it's a relic. But I have seen an extra auto, an extra auto sometimes. Here's an extra relic. 1-15 out of 3-99, the big unit. Randy Johnson, you can see a little piece of the pinstripe to the left, to the left of the window. Yankees, that'll be for Martin and the Yankees. The next relic is Ryan Mountcastle, game use jersey, 11 out of, check that, 1-11 out of 3-99. That'll be Gary and the Orioles, couple autos. We've got Jake Myers, 1-40 out of 2-99. Ryan H, with the Stroves. And then we've got Smolzy, John Smolk, 34 out of 9-99. Gary with the Braves, next box. 14 out of 25, three-color dual relic, Justin Verlander for the Astros. That's going to go out to Ryan. Kyle Muller, 2 out of 10, nice silver ink autograph for Gary and the Braves. And there's Hyunjin Roo, 1-91 out of 2-99. Martin with the Blue Jays. And Hyunjin Roo always seems to run into some injury issues. I feel like if he was healthy, I mean, he could be in the conversation a lot of years for Cy Young. On the AL side of things, yeah, I mean, it looks like, is this MVP race wrapped up too? Aaron Judge, minus 4-70. Cornyn Vegas, he's the runaway favorite. Otani is the next closest to plus 3-70. So it's really just those two, because then it jumps to Jose Ramirez at plus 6,060 to 1. So at least according to that market, there's 90 out of 2-49. Adrian Beltray, that'll be for Nathan and the Rangers. Ryan Vallad, 2-28 out of 2-99. That will be for Gary and the Rockies. And there's Nolan Aronato, 1 out of 25. If it wasn't for his teammate, he might be leading the NL MVP race. And that's Martin with the St. Louis Cardinals. You know, this website, the SportsBettingDime.com, has a little some analysis here too. Apparently on July 17th, Otani took over as favorite at minus 1-10. Judge was plus 1-55. And then on the 31st, it went back to judge. So for a minute, Otani was a slight favorite. 36 out of 2-99. Freddie Freeman for Gary and the Braves. There's Jesse Winker with the Reds. That'll be for Nestor and the Red Legs. Reds edition. Prime performers, autograph. How much winking does he do? I don't know. And a nice O'Neill Cruz, rookie autograph. Two, it looks like he's autographed over the number. 263 out of 2-99. Who's got the buckos? That's Gary with the pirates. With the spot he got straight up. Got randomized. The buckos gets the O'Neill Cruz, rookie autograph. In terms of rookie of the year, NL rookie of the year, the favorite, again, according to Vegas, doesn't mean the writers will vote this way, but according to Vegas, Spencer Strider at minus 145 has got a narrow lead ahead of his teammate, Michael Harris, who has a plus 165. O'Neill Cruz is almost three to one. He's third. Again, at least according to what the books say, how the writers vote could be the baseball writers of America. They could see it completely differently. 59 out of 3-99, Will Smith. That will be for Gary and the Dodgers. There's Gavin Sheets. 001 out of 2-99. That will be for the White Sox. That'll be for Martin and the White Sox. And we've got Jose Altuve, jersey and autograph. 12 out of 75. It's Ryan Heinz with the Astros. Oliver, what's going on? How are you? All right, second half of the first case, and it's a double header. We've got another one coming up. In the AL, yeah, I think Julio Rodriguez has run away with it. Yeah, Vegas has him at minus 600. Bobby Whitjr, 14 to one is the next closest, along with Jeremy Pena for the Astros. So it looks like a lot of these end of season though, the major end of season where it seemed to be kind of wrapped up unless someone just goes bananas the rest of the way. 356 out of 3-99, Trey Turner for Gary and the Dodgers. Jared Kalnick, golden autograph, six out of 25. Ooh, nice, off to the ravine. Go see the Dodgers. Who's on the bump today, Oliver? Seattle, Gary with the Mariners. And then we've got Burt Bleilevin, California Angels Edition, tier one talent. Going to the Halos, that'll be for C-B-H. What's up, Chad? Any big time football mixers coming up for opening day? I don't know, but traditionally, we do have a big football is back kind of mixer. Oh, Julio Rourius on the mound, nice. All right, what about the Saiyong award? Let's take a look at that in the next box. 306 out of 3-99, Gary Sheffield, piece of his jersey, going to Martin. All right, I can do it right now. Sandy Alcantara, minus 2-8. Next closest, Corbin Burns at all, like six to five, six and a half to five. There's Max Muncie, 172 out of 3-99. Got a year-long extension. Good for Max, that'll be for Gary and the Dodgers. There's Stephen Ridingts for the Yankees. That's going to go to Martin. Yeah, Tony Gonson, not getting a lot of love. He's third in Saiyong odds. Nice Jim Tome for the White Sox edition, going to Martin. His odds are, according to this site, 1600, so 16-1. So the Max Hersers behind him, then Max Fried, Carlos Rodon, Edwin Diaz, Zach Wheeler, and then Julio Rourius, 85-1, and then Aaron Nola jumps to 100-1, so on and so forth. Who's pitching for the Brewers tonight? Julio Rourius on the mound tonight, hosting the Brew Crew. They just saw each other the other week, too. Garrett Cole, 361 out of 3-99, and Eric Lauer got it. Garrett Cole with the Yankees. That's going to be for Martin. Almost some scufflin' happened the other night. 009 out of 3-49, Dansby Swanson. Gary, he's a free agent at the end of the year. And a couple autos for the Halos. Jared Walsh, 143 out of 2-99. He's starting to come around, down here for him. That'll be Steve H. and the Angels. And there's Joe Ryan. Rookie Joe Ryan, 119 out of 2-99. A.L. Cy Young, favorites. Justin Verlander, according to Vegas is in the lead. Minus 190. Dylan Cease is pretty close at plus 240, and then it jumps to 10-1. Chamber Clanahan, and then it jumps again to 32-1 for Otani, Alec Manoa, 50-1, and so on and so forth. Nice, how did you do? Where is Rolling Hills? You got Manny Machado. Nice game, used relic to 2-49. Got a little bit of color in there. That is for the Friars, Martin, and the Padres. Grab the bottom autograph first. There's Dave Winfield, nice. 13 out of 25 twins edition. That is for Martin, last spot Mojo. 70% of the time, last spot Mojo hit to 100% of the time. And there's Patrick Wisdom, 78 out of 2-99. The smart-looking hit going to Silvano and the Cubs. Terrible. Shot a 98, all of a sudden. This is after some low 80s, right? I was out of town last weekend, so I wasn't able to do a full weekend training session, but I'm gonna try to maybe squeeze in a small bucket before work or something like that. There's Evan Longoria to 3-99. Longo for the Giants, Martin. And then a couple autographs. There's Gavin Lux, tier one talent. 2-93 out of 2-99. He's been looking pretty good. Right, yeah, Oliver got shot at 84 on Friday, came in with confidence and lost it, but it was one of the nicest courses he played, and horror. Gary with the Dodgers. And there is the Professor, Greg Maddox, 4 out of 50. That is a different autograph. Next level autograph. It kind of has some, they kind of cut some pieces out of the card right there. It's sort of hard to tell on the camera, but I can definitely feel it. It's a multi-layered there. Looks pretty sharp. This feels different. Is there a book in here? Ooh, book it. Book alert. Dual autograph relic book card coming up. Fingers crossed, everybody, good luck. Hopefully no randomizer. First off, there's Willie McCovey for the Giants, 74 out of 99. Piece of his lumber going to Martin. And we got Trevor Rogers for the Marlins, 79 out of 1-99. Gary with the Marlins. All right, the book. Looks pretty fat, too. What do we got here? Who do we got here? Good luck, everybody. Ooh, wow. We've got Cal Ripken Jr. on one side, and Eddie Murray on the other side. Three-color patch and autograph. Two-color patch and autograph. Eddie Murray, Cal Ripken Jr., Dual Relic, Dual Auto, 1 out of 10. That's a nice hit for the O's. Gary with the Orioles. Nice one. I don't have any slider boxes handy, but we'll just stack this right on top of that pile. There you go. Nice. But wait, we're not done. There's more. Maybe a book on this case. Could we see like a cut auto or a one-of-one on this side? Stay tuned. Away we go. So we've got about another 20 or so minutes here. So this case, good luck. And we've got another dual case loaded up. Dual case, random teams. So some spots, a couple fillers, and we can rock another one tonight. Martin with the Yankees. There's Andrew Vaughn to $299. $151 out of $299. That is for Martin and the White Sox. Could this be a personal box for Martin? Here is DJ LeMayhew for the Yankees. That's a personal box. Martin with all the hits in this one. $115 out of $299 Yankees autograph. He's heating up. He's on fire. Jose Altuve, he's of his jersey to $399. $122 out of $399 for Ryan and the Stroes. And we saw O'Neill Cruz in the first case. Here's Cabrine Hayes in this case. $79 out of $299. That is for Gary and the Pirates. And a gold ink Larry Walker, $5 out of $25. Great auto. That is for Gary and the Rockies. Almost a personal box. He did get both of the autos. He did indeed get both of the autos. Tier one talent. Another extra relic inside. $001 out of $399, Tori Hunter. He's up 3-0. Martin has Detroit. And we've got the wizard, $182 out of $199.  That goes to Martin and the Cardinals. Got Matthew Veerling, $185 out of $299. Philly's, Nestor with Philadelphia. And Tech, Jason Veriteg, $18 out of $25 gold ink autograph. Jonathan, you may be double-checked to make sure you're watching live. Jonathan just mentioning nice booklet. I already have a few boxes into this second case. Martin with the Red Sox. I'm going to go with Tech. Yeah, very nice booklet. I'll do a recap, too. It's sort of a longer break, so we'll recap both cases. Jared Walsh, $12 out of $399.  Steven the Angels. Got Sammy Long, $74 out of $299. That's for Martin and the San Francisco Baseball Giants. And there's Ozzy's autograph, $007, or no, check that. That's $87 out of $175. And that is for Martin and St. Louis. Right, Jonathan, you're usually not a laggard. That's why I was like, ooh, Judge? Again? No. Just in front of the warning track. This warning track power for Aaron Judge. You think Judge gets to $60? He just hit $47 tonight. Hey, speaking of, there's Aaron Judge, $179 out of $299. He's at the pinstripe. That goes to Martin and the Yankees. Alder says no. He doesn't get to $60. Three out of 10, Lars Knutbar. Local kid, Lars Knutbar. Local for Jaspies, that is. He's from, he went to El Segundo High School, just north, maybe about 20 minutes north of our shop. And there's Seth Beer, $246 out of $299. Martin has the dime back and the cardinals. Both autos in the box, nice. Johnson says no on $60 as well. Oliver wants him to. He's carrying the fantasy team. What does he get to, Oliver and Jonathan? Well, that one's even closer to the warning track, or the wall it is. All right, there's Josh Johnson for the twins. 12 out of 349. Martin with the twins, last Bob Mojo. Couple autos, we got Alejo Lopez. That's gonna go to the Reds. Nestor with the Reds. Jonathan thinks he's gonna end up at 55. There's Peter Lanzo. Another slugger here going to Gary and the Metropolitan's. Yeah, I think up to today, up until Aaron judges Homer tonight, I think he was on a, I think he had gone like nine, 10 games without a home run. A little bit of a drought, I think the longest of the season. Logan Webb, 305 out of 399. Martin and the Giants. Griffin Jacks, 156 out of 299. Another twins hit for Martin, last Bob Mojo. Ooh, and a nice patch auto. There's three colors, right? Is this a different shade than that or maybe it's just different texture? Anyway, nice patch, nice auto. Three out of 10, Brandon Lau. That is gonna go to Chris in the Tampa Bay Rays. All right, next box. All right, another extra relic in here. All right, Will the Thrill, 211 out of 299. The Giants recently retired his number. Goes to Martin and the Giants. We got a Vlad Guerrero Jr., 32 out of 299.  Going to the Bluebirds, Martin and the BlueJays. We got Marcos Diplen, not low, Diplen. 136 out of 299 for the O's. Gary with the Oreos. And we got a Jose Abreu, tier one talent autograph. 109 out of 149, White Sox. That will be for Martin. Brett Beatty, corner, ah, caught. Roberto Clemente, nice, 36 out of 50. Piece of his game used Lumber. And that'll be for Gary and the Pirates. Jesse Winker, 251 out of 299. Another red leg for Nester. And a Brian Della Cruz rookie autograph. 191 out of 299 for the fish. Gary in the Marlins. Albert Pujols with the star today. One for one, but not a home run, because it's close. Does Albert, we asked this question yesterday. I think nearly 60% of voters in our chat thinks that Albert Pujols will get to 700. I'll ask a new crew today. Does Albert Pujols get to 700 home runs? We've been on a bit of a terror lately. He's playing first base today too. And he's sitting at 692. Does he get eight more home runs by the end of the season? There's Andrew McCutcheon, 217 out of 399. Philly's edition for Nester. 692, Logan. Yon says yes. Jay-Z number nine saying yes, 700 for Albert. It's Kettle Marte, 30 out of 399. Not too many in that 700 club. Martin with the diamond back, gets the Kettle Marte. Drew Ellis, another snake. Another diamond back for Martin. And Harold Baines, 208 out of 299 for Martin and the White Fox. Two more, and then we'll do a recap. And if you're looking for another double-header, tier one, ladies and gentlemen, check out the shop, jaskyscasebreaks.com. Ooh, look at that.  Any guesses? There is Bren Lau, 286 out of 299 for the Rays. We've got another ray, Shane Bos, 230 out of 299. I'll give you guys a little peek. What do you think? Vladdy says, Logan. Charlie Blackman, 69 out of 399. Zach Wheeler, any other guesses? Nester with the Phillies. We've got a Lenny Dijkstra guest out here. 11 out of 25, Gold, Incado, Casey Meyers. Martin, the Tigers hopefully bounces back next year. Former number one overall pig. And we've got Dennis Eckersley, 178 out of 199. Martin with the A's. Aaron's thinking big hurt. Taking a little peek here. It should be a one of one too. Or a one of one too, one of one as well. Peter Lanzo is another guess. It's going to be. It's a nice Keston Hira, one of one. And I think he's been swinging the bat pretty well lately. This might be, is this a slider box or a 180 top loader? Let's see. This can go into a 180, nice. That is awesome. Getting to see a big piece of the lumber. Limited lumber relic card. Nice, there you go. That's Gary with the Brew Crew. Gary, all aboard the Big Head Express. Nice ladies and gentlemen, and there you go. Our double header, random team break number three in the books. Thanks for watching. Thanks for breaking with us, everybody. Let's do a little recap here. Here was the first case. Now, if you want to do another one of these, we've got another dual case, random team break in the store right now, jaskyscasebrakes.com. We've got straight up spots, and we've got a couple fillers that we've got to do as well. So check all of that out on jaskyscasebrakes.com. We can run this back. It's that nice O'Neill cruise. I'm a fan of the tier one. Deliver some pretty strong hits, as you've seen, as you're seeing right now. And I would love to do another one tonight. And then from the first case, there was that book. Grab a slider box of that, nice Eddie Murray, nice Cal Ripken Jr., one out of 10. Dual relic, dual auto, real sharp. Here is the second case, which is a little more fresh in your mind, probably, but we'll do the recap. That's a nice-looking one, too. A lot of nice relics, old-school guys, rookies, popular vet players, up-and-coming prospects, so on and so forth. And then, of course, the nice Keston here, a limited lumber relic card. And there you go, gang. I'm Joe for jaskyscasebrakes.com. Thanks for watching. Thanks for breaking with us. Like I said, we've got more of this in the store. Let's run it back, jaskyscasebrakes.com. I'm Joe. I'll see you next time for the next one.


Hi, everyone. This is the Jenkins documentation special interest group. It's the 27th of March, 2020. Thanks very much for joining us. Let's go ahead and look at the agenda and then we'll work through the contents of the agenda. So, first, first item will report on previous action items. Then we'll talk about plug in labeling principles and guidelines. Then the plug in adoption and deprecation processes. Then documentation roadmap. And those are the to and then Google season of docs 2020. Are there other topics that should be added to the agenda. Great. Okay, then let's go ahead and first is the action items. I apologize I'm still not I still haven't submitted my project ideas in a poll request I think what will happen there is we're going to use the roadmap as a place to hold some of those, at least as an initial capture and then we'll put more ideas as they are. Docs SIG summary I continue to post those to post the videos to Twitter and I'll do a blog post here in the next week or two on the ways that docs have evolved. Oleg you and I had talked about a palm and bomb developer meetup for the for for use of bill of materials in Maven. Is that stabilizing now or should we continue to hold this on the do it in the future. I think that we need to do that. I'm about organizing plugin for the zero. So it's on my list, maybe for the next week or the week after. And after it happens, we can definitely proceed so they meet up for that. Great. Okay. We're waiting for that. Everybody's welcome to join and talk about the anything else related to plugin development. So we had three or four meetups already. And we've got some audience today is interested in these topics because it's not only about Jenkins but also about the usage of software development tools. Even if you don't develop Jenkins plugins, you can study something from that. Excellent. Thank you. Then the last item was on listing the GitHub apps and the plugins that use them. I don't remember. I don't have recall the details on this one. Should I just delete this item. So it came from the request to clarify which applications can be used by the developers. And the current situation that common maintainer cannot access the release of fully approved applications. So we need to somehow document it probably in the GitHub repository. Okay, so this is so I as a plugin developer, don't know that release drafter is available to me or that or, let's see what are some others some of the the pro bot tools, the thing that does depend about for instance, and if I don't know them they're available I need to see a list somewhere. Okay. So it's something on the back burner for me. I will eventually do that but you're taking all other action items on my site. I wouldn't expect it soon. Right. That is something to have that. And I haven't seen strong need to have it so that seems very reasonable. All right, so next topic plug in labeling guidelines, labeling principles so here is that previously Jenkins plugins were categorized by by labels that were stored at one point on the wiki. And after the wiki was no longer particularly helpful. Let's see and all I get if I've got the right location the labels are right over here. So this goes to, to find all the plugins that match a particular label and storing them in the wiki the wiki is now read only so that won't work anymore. GitHub has a concept of topics. The plugins can be have topics controlled by the plugin maintainer, which, which are the can be used as labels to help people find things better on the on the plugin site. So one of the one of the discussions was hey are we do we have the right techniques for labeling plugins. And so I had sent out a proposal here, which suggested a scarred, which suggested some ideas for that's impossible to read ideas for guidelines we might use in labeling things because oh I can I had a discussion about, hey, what are the appropriate labels to use and not use on a on a particular plugin. The principles I was proposing were, let's try to label for users. And by default, we would only label from with white listed labels so labels that are chosen in advance and skip. This one was I think a controversial one skip labels provided by parents. And then, then the other controversy one was labels should be relevant to at least five plugins before they are added to the white list. Oh like you and I had conversations about this this is probably a good time for me to ask you to chime in. What are some issues you'd seen some problems or things you think we need to address here in the discussion. This discussion basically need to agree how we label things, because there are two approaches. My concern about this proposal was not specifically to the least. But the suggestions and below regarding principles. So for example how to label plugins for it happened, etc. Because your approach markers to label everything which might be useful to a GitHub user. My approach was to label plugins which are specifically related to GitHub. And yeah there is basically a conceptual difference in how the labels would be displayed. And right now, how well how labels were organized before you actually focus in technologies. So, for example, all plugins which are providing some functionality for Kubernetes would be marked as Kubernetes label. One of the ones we edit recently to highlight such future areas. My approach basically follows the one which existed before. And my understanding was that you proposed a different approach. Right. That's a good point. So a key difference there was should so in your in your in the in the way it's been in the past it's not even particularly yours right it's that how we've applied it in the past. A plugin that was specifically focused on GitHub would be labeled GitHub. Whereas this this example basic build branch build strategies would not be labeled GitHub, GitHub did I understand correctly. Yes, that's right. So, so this may be a place where where others are certainly welcome to chime in. I'm okay with either. We'd be perfectly fine to say hey, we're not where we're going to say it needs to be specific to that technology in in the specific benefit labeling technique. Oh, like do you envision how they would find basic branch build strategies, would they find it by some other means. Because there are still additional labels like SM, which could be used, then later you could add some analytics because we have usage starts. For example, we could provide information like people who install GitHub branch source plugin usually install this basic branch build strategies, something like that. So how other marketplaces like Amazon operate. Okay, so that there we would use the, use the data after the initial labeling use the data that that can be gathered from the association of plugins in an installation. I'm not, I'm not sure I'm clear on where we get that data. Yeah, association or maybe just documentation references or whatever. But yeah, for me, it's how it would be done practically, because otherwise you will have explosion of configurations. For example, everybody uses pipeline, not everybody but 70% of Jenkins users. So, would you mark all pipeline plugins with GitHub label, because if you use GitHub, you would definitely benefit from pipeline. So, such approach causes a lot of pitfalls like that. And I would prefer to be careful about that unless there is strong documentation where the boundaries. Good point. So we have a, we have a pool of 1500 18 1000, almost 2000 plugins. And you're right that if, if the, the, this, this tends to be a broader proposal than, and it would thus tend to generate many, many hits on on the word pipeline or the word if, if the example you give pipeline label is assigned to every plugin that provides anything, any extension to pipeline, then when I search for pipeline, I will probably get almost every plugin in the system. I'll get hundreds and hundreds of them. And that's, that's not particularly valuable to me. Good. Okay. So, yeah, that's was my point about that. And yeah, my preference would be to proceed to use how Jenkins operated before. And it would be also more convenient for maintenance. Because we expect plugin maintenance to manage GitHub topics. And I use my GitHub for calming permissions to set topics where I feel it's reasonable. But in general, it's up to plugin maintenance. So if you set up a complicated policy, it won't help. Well, and, and maybe is it what it even be simpler than to say, Hey, we're not going to worry about a policy particularly, we will allow it to grow entirely organically and thus it would follow the pattern. That we've used in the past. Or do you do feel strong that hey, a stated policy will help even if the stated, even if the stated policy is specifically to continue as we did before. I wouldn't spend too much time on that. We definitely need some kind of summary in plugin developer and plugin maintenance documentation. Because right now we don't document that one can use it for topics on the documentation. It's not a big deal because many popular plugins do use labels, so people will discover that they actually make some effect. And now it's also visible in the Jenkins front end, because the same labels are consumed from a great center by Jenkins installations, but still some kind of documentation would be nice. So in hosting sessions, so when you submit your plugin you can also set up labels, etc. But I wouldn't expect to have a strict process or Jeff for that, because it's basically a set of guidelines. And I think I think I've understood more clearly now your rationale and I'm fine with that. How about if we put the action item on me, or are there others in the meeting that would like to comment, give insights on hey, I would like this or that. We have Daniel on the call and Daniel spends a lot of time on Jenkins plugin manager. Hi, sorry, I had to accept delivery just now. Where exactly are we regarding the rules here. So the idea was to bias instead of instead of taking the rules of the patterns that I had suggested. We stay with Jenkins more common way of doing things which is if a plugin specifically focuses on delivering a capability to a particular keyword GitHub in this example. It would be labeled with that but in this example basic branch build strategies would not be labeled GitHub, because it's not specific. Thank you. That is what I would also have suggested. Because what would happen is basic branch build strategies would get two dozen labels for every implementation of SCM that is compatible with it and that would seem very weird to me. So I agree with this. I only have one other specific feedback if I may please. I don't think we should. This specific example that's currently being screen shared looks like fairly strict restrictive rules about plugin labeling, which seems to go counter to where we're going with the labeling by supporting GitHub topics, which is a lot more organic. And allowing people to just add labels they think makes sense within the whitelist constraints obviously. But there seems to be a tension here between we want strict control that's the correct label that would be an incorrect label. And on the other hand, I mean we support GitHub topics you can define your own just do whatever. And I'm not quite sure what the direction here is. Well so and my my intent in describing these was only to give samples, and not to state them as rules, rather as samples and I think given the guidance from both you and from Oleg, that we should be more, more, more jank and let's be accept that this will be organic that it will be flexible so what I was thinking I should do is offer a pull request to the, to the developer docs page on hosting that says that hey you can use labels, and you should choose the labels from the whitelist. You may, and bias towards, and yeah bias towards fewer labels, not, not being overly broad, and focus on the value that your plugin is giving to the user. So keep it very simple no no strict rules describe no no rigorous enforcement of anything. As an addition to that, I think it makes sense to encourage users to propose new labels to be whitelisted. Because I mean, we don't know everything maybe a new niche is created in terms of Jenkins plugins multiple plugins. Like if you think back five years or something, there was like probably like one Docker plugin or something. And at some point there would have been this critical mass of five Docker plugins where label makes sense. So yeah, totally agree. And that that makes a lot of sense. Okay, so let's see if I can capture that I'm going to actually put it into an action item here so mark to submit mark submit a PR to the dev docs. That proposal that says it hub topics are supported and encourage topics that match a whitelist will be displayed on plugins that Jenkins that I encourage proposals and encourage proposed proposals to add to the whitelist and suggest that labels focus on the key value provided to the user. Is that a reasonable way to say it or how would you how would you suggest, I would suggest using a word other than key there. Oh, good. Okay, how about just that. Yeah, that works. Basically what we're trying to say here is labels are when users are looking for something or administrators are you looking for something. But they don't know exactly what they're looking for but rather you know the general topic the category the technology stuff like that. And, yeah, so labels should focus on that. Nobody cares the technology about the technology that your plugin is implemented in. But if you or the build system that you're using so limit your use of the Maven label to, you know, Maven specific features in Jenkins. And not, you know, because you have a POM XML. Well, or I like the the one that Oleg and I discussed earlier was, it should not be that the that every plugin that extends pipeline uses the pipeline label. Because if every plugin that extends pipeline uses the pipeline label, the set of labeled pipeline the pipeline label will become almost useless there are so many things in it. Is that a fair example Daniel or by now pipeline as a label is akin to labeling a Jenkins plugin using Jenkins and plug in. Right, exactly. No sense inside Jenkins. Right. Obviously, is pipeline a white listed label it probably is right. Okay. So whether it adds any value to our global topic because right now there are maybe 60 or so plugins. But the principle that is labeled for that. Although, but with only 60 that's not as bad as I had feared because I think if we looked at implement those who are implementing pipeline it's probably double or triple that. Yeah, because not everybody puts on the pipeline topic. It's easy. Yeah, this. So, I just spend some time to clean up common labels like Kubernetes a but WS OpenShift. Whatever. And that's some time to put this github topics but please be sure that I wasn't going through my plans against because practical value for this label is not that high. Maybe maybe something like the following makes sense use labels. Or if if the plugin is well above average related to the label, because if you just implement simple build step and now pipeline compatible. Well above average. But if you're, you know, an actual pipeline plugin, then the label would be redundant but it wouldn't actually make sense. Something along those lines perhaps. Good. I like that guidance. Excellent. I mean, ultimately, it's it's not just it's just that what's the physical philosophical do what everyone would be able to do and the outcome of that would be reasonable. If everyone labeled their vaguely related plugin with pipeline the label would be useless. So maybe we can work this nicely to explain the principle. Good. Yeah, I like that. Okay. Thanks. Excellent. Okay. Thanks for the extra time here. I propose we move on to the next topic I think I've got I'm settled on the on the discussion the next stop will be a pull request. Any objections to that. So one thing which I would express the reserve in the documentation you create that Jenkins GitHub or card means reserve their right to manage labels for plugins without asking for permission. For example, in the case of GitHub topic randomly is in the case of when we just feel it's reasonable to add a label and help maintainers we can do that. Without the consulting maintenance. It seems very reasonable. Yep. It's not how we come on the approach the plugin ecosystem. But since it goes directly to updates and maybe it's something. Right, I think, I think say saying may or are allowed to is very fair. I think that's a reasonable thing to tell them that if if there is some reason and typically org admins don't act act that way unless there's a motivating reason. Good. Thanks. Okay, next topic. New plugin adoption and deprecation processes. Oh, like would you like to take us through this one. Yeah, stop sharing. Okay. I spent some time preparing pages before the meeting and then I closed everything. Okay. This is my screen. Yes, thanks. Okay, so while we're here, let me show you labels how they look on the plugin side, because we spoke a lot about how to label that. But you're from the user perspective, it looks like that. Look for plugins. And here you can discover plugins which are related to Kubernetes. I just launched a search and here you can see that there is 18 plugins. You can see that there are labels. So not all plugins are labeled so far. There is still some technical depth jobs of labeling. You can also discover plugins which are related to Kubernetes and you can do it for common queries. So we spent a lot of time updating white yeast. So you can find it. There are still some gaps here and there, but we built just help to make the plugins discoverable. There are two specific cases related to plugins at the moment. One is deprecation. So it's deprecated plugins, plugins which are no longer supposed to be used by users due to whatever reason. This doesn't include depublishing plugins. So for example, if the Jenkins security team decides to depublish plugin because of the critical issue, or if it gets removed from the Jenkins Update Center because maintainers decide to sell, then this plugin is not listed. But there are some plugins which you still can install, but which are marked as deprecated. And if you never get a warning that yes it's deprecated. So what we had on the weekend, what we have now on the plugin site. Same for plugin adoption. There is a special label called adopt this plugin, which basically lists the plugins which are for adoption. And right now there are 77 plugins which are marked like that. There is a pull request from Daniel which is a couple of hundred more. Also I have a full up to do task, but plugins from Nikola and you still need to update this list, but at least it makes the plugins discoverable. Same here you get a warning. All of Nikola's plugins should be in my pull request because I batch removed him from the uploader's list in response to his devlist thread.  He was already removed from the plugin. Okay, so the problem that he's not explicitly marked, the plugins are not explicitly marked for adoption. We have this case for Dr. Java API delivery. So it's Dr. Java API plugin which is used for example in Docker plugin and we have this plugin is not marked for adoption, but now we know that it's a for adoption. And for example, how to fix it quickly. Right now using GitHub topics. If you have right permissions in the repository, you can just put adopt this plugin label. And that's a bit. You just save it. And after some time, Jinx Update Center will pick it up. It takes a while now, maybe up to 24 hours. It has some notion of eventual consistency because plugin installation manager on the static site. It has multiple containers running and serving categories. So sometimes not everything gets updated at once, but eventually you get it updated and you will get this label on the plugin interface.  So, yeah, that's how it works. So here you can see that there is Docker, there is API plugin and there is adopt this plugin label. And if you go to the plugin interface, now you see that there is API plugin and Docker. So both of these labels actually came from GitHub because we annotated them at some point. And yeah, that's how Common Engine works. Going back to adoption and deprecation. I spent some time to document the process. Yeah, it's basically at one GitHub topic. But we needed to migrate the old guidelines from Wiki and also extend them according to the current process. So on the Jinx documentation site, now you can find a refreshed documentation which started with GitHub specifically. We still reference this label definitions as a Plan B. So you can go and set up a label explicitly in this center resources if you don't want to use GitHub topics. Sometimes it's reasonable. For example, there might be a deprecated plugin with archived code. And basically you just can set a GitHub label or you have a multimodular repository and you want to deprecate on their particular plugin. Again, you cannot do it using GitHub topics. But for such cases, you have an escape hatch like this file. Well, the most of these labels are added for historical reasons. When we were migrating out of Wiki, thanks to Daniel, he generated this file. So this file was basically our dump of labels set up on Wiki. So our adoption processes document some other bits. So for example, comment topics, how can I plug in for adoption? And it's not only about setting the label. We also recommend the documentation. If you want to set specific information, for example, I'm actually looking for com idea for something like that. And you're recommended to send a message to the mailing list because we had cases when somebody wanted to step down. Then you send the message and you find new maintenance who are interested. So instead of just stepping down and disappearing, you can organize some knowledge transfers and it helps the community a lot. And yeah, there are also other knowledge bits, but basically all this information comes from Wiki and it was facelifted to reflect the new process. And you can also, yeah, to remove this query entirely because it's not all under needed. But the documentation is up to date. It's exactly the same for duplication and the removal of plugins. So we spend some time to document it. We just put a topic. It's recommended to update plugin documentation to highlight why it's duplicated. And then it's recommended to release the plugin because we enjoy this system. We rely on the conditioners code from GitHub. So our recommendation is when we duplicated the plugin, you actually do a final release so that people can see that this documentation on the front end. Well, and I believe that, for instance, when fine bugs plugin and PMD were deprecated in favor of warnings and G that final release gave some hint to the user, didn't it? Hey, but the new plugin is this. We can take a look. So here one interesting thing you can see that it is duplicated and there is Tom Stone. It's actually supplied to by we have to, I believe. So here, yeah, the plugin has reached the end of life. So that's it. And I believe that it comes from GitHub. And I believe we did it without actually releasing the plugin because it's also possible to just guide update center to supply to write wiki URLs. Yeah, so for those who are not familiar with that, there is a file called wiki overwrites where you can basically set custom locations for documentation sources. Even the common engine discovery engine doesn't work. And here you can see that this is a patch by older. So he just redirected on the older plugins to their basically GitHub premise. Without releasing these plugins. I did the same later for JavaScript libraries. And here you can see that they actually reference a written file, not in the root, but it still works. And I believe that in the future you'll need to get rid of all this stuff and immigrated to GitHub. Yeah, we get contributions, so we're glad that we migrated these things. So I hope that this list will finally contain only GitHub URLs for plugins which are not only used. Thank you. Okay. So I guess that's it. This adoption and deprecation. Everything is recoverable. But the guidance are here. And if there are plugin maintenance who are willing to provide some feedback, it will be much appreciated. Now a side note on deprecation. I currently have pull requests in flight that would slightly change how deprecation works. Specifically deprecation would also be possible for plugins that are no longer being distributed. Where the benefit is if a Jenkins instance has plugin installed. Right now the problem is if we then suspend distribution, we cannot provide any information about that plugin anymore other than security issue notifications. And deprecation specifically would work similar in that it would not be part of the regular available version metadata, but rather beside it. And that would allow us to show deprecation inside Jenkins, even for plugins not currently being distributed. And the current proposed approach would also have a deprecation URL, which would probably typically link to plugin documentation. But there can be other sources. For example, when we suspend plugin distribution because of a security issue. So that may change soon. As I said, it's currently open pull requests. And may or may not change. Yeah, I think it's a great improvement. Because right now if you publish a plugin, you can discover it at all. And if you generate thumb stones, it will be helpful for everyone. Thanks for doing that. So, so Daniel then what you've that your pull request proposes a UI improvement to Jenkins that will for the user actually tell them that they are using something that is now deprecated. I mean, in that already exists to an extent. I mean, there is an open pull request by Tim, I think, or Joseph, I'm not entirely sure right now, who implement that the straightforward way is similar to how we recently did adopt this plugin. Where you look for the plugin label in the updates in the metadata. Yes, that's that's it. And if the label exists, you highlight it very visibly in Jenkins with an admin monitor and such. And my feedback to that pull request in its current form is it's not enough because we need to label plugins that are deprecated and no longer being distributed. And so there are two parts to this one part is the server side and updates in the two in which we need to add an additional kind of data to the updates in the JSON file. And allow it to be configured. We are property file or JSON file or whatever nobody cares. And that you can also add the label to plug in source distribution is currently suspended. That's the server side and then client side, we need to extend Jenkins to consume the new metadata and adapt to the son's pull request to make use of new metadata as well. So a similar cycle to what we did for a lot of labels and data updates, but it's quite straightforward. Got it. Okay, thank you. Thanks for that clarification. So it's the your pull request is really about getting the extra data for a type of thing that does not exist today in Jenkins the notion that a plugin has been removed from the update center, and we need to alert them that it was removed. That has been depublished. Right, because there is some overlap between a public plugin whose publication whose publication is suspended or distribution is suspended and deprecated plugins and the current approach with the deprecated label that's implemented in the pull request and I mean to an application is also implemented right now in Jenkins because you can look at what deprecated label is, but it's not highlighted in any way. You will only see that for plugins that we currently distribute. There's a way above a rich chance that the plugin that's deprecated is also no longer being distributed, because if the service it integrates with has been shut down. There's no reason to continue distributing it other than to inform users that, well, you this plugin no longer does anything and can be removed. So, yeah, it's an open. Oh, yeah, that's so that's the ignore list and there's a bunch of stuff. Many of them due to services being shut down, a few got renamed back when that was easily and accidentally even possible, because we had no fine grained upload permissions. Years ago, specific releases don't really matter. And then of course there's plugins that are suspended because of your security vulnerabilities. So this list is quite long. And there I am. I can see myself right in that list. Yeah, thank you. Okay, that's severe, severe problems are expressed in this list. Yep. Yeah, whatever. Okay, so same. Exactly. Well, anyway, this this thing helps. We can really make some use of that. So yeah, thanks Daniel for the heads up. I think it would be really good improvement for the plugin to link. Right. And while we're talking about adopt this plugin. That's now I think already in the latest weekly. So this plugin label visualization. Yeah, that's in 2227. So also related to this and it was just simpler to do than. Yeah, the last one there. Yeah, that's why I use GitHub releases, because it's easier to navigate the way requests contain screenshots. The link is also in the Jenkins changelog. So yeah, this is this this works similar to what chatter since current pull request is for deprecation, because if if some things up for adoption, it's typically not suspended. Now that's not true 100% of the case. But 100% of the time but I think it's close enough that this one makes more sense to have for just distributed plugins and we can always later extend it as well. So that the next LTS that this will be included in is probably three months away. Right. So this will, this will have time to soak for a period of multiple weeklies. Great. Thank you. There's a lot of other changes. So yeah, let's see where it evolves. Okay, we are slowly running out of time for this meeting and we still have two items on the agenda. So what would be your proposal about them. So let's I'd say let's take on let me get a look at those agenda items. Jenkins roadmap and the Google season of dogs. I'm not sure that any of them can be discussed in a couple of minutes. Right. Well, let's how about I had intentionally to set this meeting back to once every four weeks. What if we say we'll meet again in two weeks and discuss those two topics. Is that well actually season of docs. I love. Um, so only roadmap. Yeah, well, if possible, I would prefer to discuss it next week, or start the same promise discussion in the main increased because we can proceed a lot without him. Yeah, let's I think let's do roadmap discussions on the mailing list. It's a good place to do it. And I would like to do I think the same thing with season of docs in part because I would love for the Jenkins project to be part of season of docs, but I personally don't have capacity to run Google season of docs. So what I was going to do is post to the mailing list that we think it would be a good thing, but it's not going to work if I have to run it. So if someone would like to assist and and lead the effort Google season of docs is a fascinating opportunity that Google provides to encourage professional technical writers to who may not have open source experience to contribute to open source. It's different for me then then summer of code right it's, it's not targeting students it's really targeting people who are already in the technical writing field, but therefore it has some different needs and some different expectations. Yeah, but anyway, the mentors, because engaging with open source communities completely different from professional duties or for freelancing terms of communications in terms of how things happen, the cadence changes being integrated. So we still need mentors. Well, and even, even the I think of one of one of my colleagues make McRoberts is on online with this. She comes from a tech professional technical writing background and get was not a familiar thing for her when she first started contributing to open source. And so just things like introducing technical writers to get and how we interact through get is already a subtlety. That's not true actually I had worked for three other places where we used to get. But everybody does it slightly differently this is the first place that's used forks. And it's, I'm sure if I don't have profound knowledge of get, and then it all makes sense but so it was all different for each place. So, which is it also some of the other technical writers for one in two to back to back to Oleg's point that open source contribution is really different. Yes. Okay, so like did that address your two questions on those last two topics let's do them by mailing list and, and that's perfectly fine. Great. All right. Those are all the topics that we had for today. Anything else before we close the meeting. All right, I will flag the action items and post the recording. Thanks everyone. We'll see you. See you again in four weeks.


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