Yeah, we're live everybody. I will be back. Okay, it looks like we have about 10 people on. Yeah, so we'll probably start David. Yeah, and then you can just come on. So, Hannah, people actually they're hearing me now that they're coming in. Hi, can folks maybe type in the chat maybe where you are zooming in from just to make just for us to make sure that the chat is working that you can hear us. Awesome, perfect. Thank you. Great. We have on. Hello. We're all ready. All right, so wait maybe just two more minutes. I know there are probably another 15 people who had registered. And then we'll get going. Hello everyone. I suppose we can let people start trickling in so we might as well go ahead and get started. So, so thanks everyone. Thanks so much for joining us today. I love you on the webinar. If some of you have signed up for the second one, this is going to be the same content so you may not want to attend the second one unless you want just a refresher from today. Yeah, so we're really excited to get going with the loon breeding season this year we have reports coming in of loons returning to many places lost our recording. Well there we go. Okay. Yeah just so you know this is being recorded. So we got our first raft out of the season and I see the person we're working with on the call today. So if you don't know me. My name is Tracy Hart and I am a conservation biologist with may not a bond, and I also coordinate the main loon restoration project. And I'm here with several people who are part of the project. Tony Robasco and David Morrill are going to be co presenting with me, and they are both new seasonal biologists on on the mainland restoration project. We also I don't know if she's on yet but Maggie Welch is supposed to be joining us.  She's joining us as one of our partners on the project and she's from Lakes Environmental Association. So some of you may be working with her if you're in like the Bridgeton Naples area. And Olivia Scott will be on the call as well and she's also one of the seasonal biologists this year, and Hannah young who many of you know from the main loon count. I can see that Sally thought was on to she's our conservation of our director conservation at may not a bond. So welcome everyone. Just to do a little bit of housekeeping. This is a webinar format so you won't be able to speak for the portion of the presentation. So that will be about 45 minutes long, and then we'll hope to open it up to questions then. In the meantime, you can put your questions and any comments you have in the question and answer. There's also a chat if you want to speak amongst yourself but we'll be looking at the Q&A at the end to answer questions so please put anything you'd really like us to address in there. So if you want to see that, most of you will have a bar with all kinds of tools on there and it'll say Q&A, but if you don't see that just move your, your mouse around, and it should pop up somewhere. So let us know if you have any trouble with that. So that's great. So we're really excited to talk today about a part of the main estuarine project, the monitoring portion of it and that's really vital to help us know how well our loon protection efforts are working. So with that, get going. Somehow my slides aren't advancing but I'll try it this way. Okay, yeah. So this, like I mentioned, this is the monitoring section of our project is part of an overall project that we call the Main Loon Restoration Project. And we are several partners working together on a project that's focused on increasing loon productivity and nesting success and decreasing loon mortality. So the partners, it's a five year collaboration that's led by Maine Audubon, and it involves Maine Lakes, Lakes Environmental Association of Penobscot Nation as our main partners on the project. And we work in close collaboration with Maine Department of Inland Fisheries and Wildlife, and the whole project is funded by the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service Trustees through an oil settlement fund. And there are four main ways that we're trying to increase productivity and decrease mortality of loons. One is placing nesting rafts. The other is trying to monitor the success of those rafts and of nesting signs and how well they are helping to hatch chicks. The other one is nest protection through signs and through outreach. And also, we're trying to reduce mortality through fish-led-free efforts. And outreach is also important in trying to reduce disturbance and the number of boat strikes that happen. So that's the overall project, but today we're focused on just one piece and that's how you can help us monitor reproductive success and survival of loon breeding pairs and the resulting loon families that are on your lake and pond. So here's an overview of what we're going to discuss today. So this webinar is really all about the why, the what, the when, the where, and the how of how to monitor nesting success of a breeding loon pair. It's really targeted to those who've already part of the project and have nesting rafts or nesting signs out on your lake, or those who are working with this year to receive either signs or rafts. And for some of you can get involved in the monitoring by helping us to track nesting success to see if there's a pair that might be a good fit for either a sign or a raft. So I'm going to be talking about the why monitoring is vital to the success of rafts and nesting signs and ensuring that those efforts are really helping to help loon productivity and survival more than any types of more than they hurt those actions. I'll also be talking about what to monitor. So what should you be focusing on when you're out on the water and when so how often and what time of year should you go out. So that's what I'll be covering and then I'll be turning it over to David and Tony to talk about how so how often should you survey and how do you go about doing conducting a survey and how do you do that responsibly. Okay, so first the why the big question is how why are we asking you and your team to put in time into surveying a parent every pair of wounds on your lake. The short answer is that monitoring is a really critical part of making sure our actions help instead, instead of harm, and to be able to adjust our actions as threats and situations change so your help is really vital. Our overall goal if you remember is to increase loon productivity and and loon survival. So with rafts we're trying to help out a pair that continuously struggles and fails to hatch chicks, and by addressing some of the causes of nest failure. And with nesting signs, we're trying to reduce disturbance at nest sites that are at risk of failing due to human intrusions. And we can only know if our efforts are working through surveying. So monitoring lets us know how our collective efforts are working to improve nesting success and reduce threats. So I'll just give you a couple examples of how monitoring can be important. So, so one is monitoring can help, you know, catch issues with rafts and signs. We're all here because we want to help loons. And rafts and signs can be really beneficial, but at the same time things can and do go wrong with rafts we've seen a few things already that we've we've addressed. So signs have their pros and cons. Also, as well, they might attract more attention to the nest. So monitoring is really the way we can minimize the risks by catching and addressing problems that arise. So, for example, if you can see in these pictures, the wake continue can continue to be a problem if the raft isn't well placed. And also raccoons and this is a picture of the hard picture to see but predators can still get to rafts sometimes. So this, you know, you hope that a raft will move the nest far enough offshore that a predator can't get to it but sometimes that happens. So if we find out about what these issues are there are some ways that we can help retrofit the situation or move the raft to a better location. And also other things like if a corner sinks on a raft we can pop some flotation under it. So, so we're hoping you don't do those things yourselves. If, if loons have started nesting, please call us and we can see if there's any possibility of making those fixes but yeah so the other picture I have here is showing what ideal situation is for a raft. So how deep the water should be and how far offshore in a protected cove so monitoring also gives us a chance to see if the raft is still in a protected cove if it's outer prevailing wind and waves. If it's not in the way of recreation or anglers, if it's not in the path of boatwakes, if it's well anchored, it's really secure. And if it's in water that's deep enough that it can still float and rise and fall with waves. And it gives us a chance to make sure that the anchor lines aren't so taught that it's sinking the raft. So, yeah, so it's really monitoring is very important for the success of a raft. Also, it helps us track nesting success, which is our major goal of the project. So this right here so are we want to know if rafts and nests are helping to hatch more chicks. And the only way we're going to know that if they're helping and if it's working is by tracking their breeding success and their survival over the season. So questions like, are they using the raft, did they had to check our people respecting nesting signs. So monitoring really helps us catch all those key events. And so just to let you know like how monitoring is helping us so far and what it's telling us. I have a graph here which I won't go over in full but it does show some of what we're learning from the monitoring that happened last year. Last year we put out 27 rafts. So down at the bottom of the screen that's the total rafts.  So it can take one, three, even six years for loose to start using rafts but we had a third of them use last year. So, so we're all doing something right we're either choosing the right pairs, or, you know, we're doing the right things with the rafts. So that's a good sign. It also we found out that in the beginning when we before we started putting the rafts out. We had really low productivity so oops. Oh, sorry I went to the wrong one. It was low productivity only about point one chicks were hatching for each pair, each year. And then a raft, the ones that use the rafts about seven folds.  So it's a good sign that at least this first year, our efforts are working.  They're really critical role in reporting issues that are happening, and letting us know what the breeding story is for that pair. And then lastly, tracking threats. So this is a monitoring really helps us know if the raft or the sign we have out there is addressing the threat, and then threats change. And, you know, we want to continuously know if our actions are addressing threats. So maybe a dam was fixed and nest flooding is no longer an issue. So in that case, we might be able to actually pull the raft, if the threat isn't there anymore. So rafts are meant to get loose through the hard times. Maybe now there's some more motor boats or wake boats on your pond. So our raft might still be needed because of the rise and fall with boatwakes, but you might also need to consider education such as about wake laws, or, or raising awareness about how vulnerable wounds are on the nest. Yeah, so those are some three really big why's as to why we're asking you to get out there and help us know how well rafts and signs are doing in which pairs are vulnerable. So then the question is that you want to monitor. So in a nutshell, these surveys we're asking you to focus on one pair of wounds on your lake or pond and any chicks that they produce. So you'll, you'll be gathering information that to tell this reading pairs story. We're focusing on pairs specifically we're replaced rafts or considering for a rafter assign. And we're specifically focusing on pairs that have repeatedly tried to nest and failed, and have failed at a reason that we can help address this project. You can, you know, everyone's always asking me, can I got down other wounds I'm out there I'm seeing all these other wounds. Should I drop that down and you can monitor other adult wounds that are there and you can even submit that data. So we can learn more about the lake, but our focus and the data that we're going to be tracking is really about these, these pairs where we have rafts and signs out. Yeah, so what are we actually tracking so some of the information that we're going to be trying to get through these surveys. We want to know if they are nesting on the raft or not. Are they using it. Are they nesting at all. Maybe they're not choosing the right but they found another natural site. The number of chicks that are hatched by this pair, and the number of chicks that survived to at least six weeks of age. So that's the time when if they make it to six weeks. I just think that's pretty likely that they'll actually get to the point where they can pledge off the lake when they're 12 weeks or older. The number of nest failures and the reasons for nest failure and then really important to is tracking incidents of disturbance we want to know what's happening to these wounds that might be causing this failure. So that is what we're trying to track and then David's going to be going into a lot more about how we do that. One question you might ask is how this is different than the annual loon count. So many are involved in the loon count and found this project through through your involvement in the loon count, which for those of you who aren't familiar with it. It's a census that happens on the third Saturday of July each year. That's a snapshot of the population at the same time each year. It's a very vital thing for estimating and tracking the breeding population in Maine and deciphering long term trends. But the monitoring we're doing through this project is a bit different. It's focusing on behaviors and nesting success rather than number of loons and chicks. It's focusing on a single pair rather than on counting all the loons in your survey area. So the entire breeding season versus just once a year and this monitoring really helps us find out which loons need our help and how rafts and signs are working. So it serves a different purpose but you know more or less important, but this project just provides a new opportunity to learn more about breeding success on individual lakes and to target our projection efforts. Okay, and then, so when to do the survey then and who should be involved. So this monitoring is done by local volunteers so many of you on this call individuals like associations teams, neighbors, all can be involved in this. And it often takes a village to be able to complete all these monitoring surveys. So you'll be doing this though with our training and support so including this webinar. And then we also do onsite training so when we come to help you deploy your raft or put out a sign. We will help you and give you some training on how to do monitoring and how to read loon behaviors. And then we'll also come out one to do times during the season to check in and see how things are going. So you won't be alone in this. So we're looking for our weekly surveys, and at the very least once every two weeks. And the timing of that is starting in May, or as soon as you can, as soon as a safe in spring that's great, and going through August, or even preferably to when the chicks leave the pond and fall or winter. So, but we're hoping you at least go through when the chicks are six weeks old if they had to check. So yeah it is really helpful to have a team and to get creative to find help needed. So now I'm going to turn this over to David to talk more about how you how to do the surveys, and I'll be monitoring the chat and the q amp a from here forward and yeah so thanks so much everyone. I'm looking forward to having you involved. So let me stop sharing my screen. All right, first things first, can everyone hear me. Thumbs up the my fellow panelists. Yep. Okay myself now. And I did also see some people have been thrown in questions in the chat, or the q amp a section that's fantastic keep doing that too and if we don't answer it right away might come up later or it might be something that will wait till the end to sort of discuss, and a bit more detail but keep thrown that we love to hear those questions. But give me one sec while I just set up my shared screen now. Oh, okay, well, let me just skip through some things really quickly we've already learned about all of this. Okay. So first off again I wanted to thank Tracy for that beautiful introduction that was a great way of introducing our project and going over some of the purposes that we're going to be doing. My name is David again and I will be discussing more how you can help us gather this important information. So first I'll introduce the surveys and go over how to fill them out. And then we'll delve a little bit into loon behaviors. And like we mentioned earlier, our goal is to reduce disturbances and threats to nesting loons. And it's important we do that. We don't contribute to their distress, and we can ensure this by monitoring responsibly. So in most cases you won't be able to complete these surveys from shore. So you'll need some type of watercraft to do a thorough survey, a canoe or a kayak work great. And as such one of the most important supplies is safety equipment so a life jacket or personal floatation advice are pretty much required when we're doing these kind of surveys. So what we're going to write with and to write on like a clipboard binoculars of reference sheet and survey forms to record any observations and things like cameras with a good lens for taking pictures from a distance or a cell phone for marketing points on Google Maps. They're not required but they can come in handy. To record these observations and data we use, you will need a survey form to access forms. All of these resources that you may need for monitoring can be found on the raft monitoring resource section of the project website listed right up here. And we will also throw these links down in the Q&A section later on. So you'll have a repository of them if you want to go and check them out later on. The primary document you'll need is the survey form. To access these forms, click the link of the main common loon breeding survey form under raft monitoring resources and find your lake specific survey form in the folder and print this out. You can also enter your data with the Survey123 app, which is an online way of entering data. And to do so, you must click the enter your data online link here instead. Make sure to familiarize yourself with the survey instructions by following the links under monitoring protocols and print them out before conducting any surveys to ensure we all monitor responsibly. Additionally, we have some changes to our survey forms from the last year and we encourage everyone to review these protocols.  Don't worry they're all laminated so you don't have to worry about it getting wet. It contains pictures and descriptions on the front and back to help you answer survey questions such as how to know if you have a territorial pair, how old a chick is, and we'll go over how to use this guide a little bit later in more depth. And these are just a few of the multitude of resources we have to help you learn more about loon so you can become a better surveyor. So it's all for our benefit. Since we're ready to head out. What is a survey involved. Well first things first, we want us to check the weather of the links fabulous thank you for doing that Tracy. First things first to check the weather your safety is more important than any data. Secondly, our survey areas on a smaller pond with only one breeding pair the survey area is going to be the whole pond so just survey that whole pond. On larger lakes multiple pairs, you may have to cover a larger area to hone in on the area the pair of frequency. Start by looking into areas where you have seen the pair in the past. Focus on the areas where they spend most of their time, but also look for the farthest locations where they are to get a sense of their range. You can have along the shoreline and around any islands, which are frequent habitats that they hang out in. And when you locate the pair, watch them with binoculars from a distance, long enough that you can see behaviors that help you confirm they are a pair and not competing with each other in the woods, and if they started nesting or not. Look for any clues about your own disturbances as well, and back off if you see any of those signs of distress, which again we'll talk about in a little more detail. Can you guys still hear me. Pick up. All right. So how long should your survey be survey only as long as you need to fill out the survey form survey times can vary throughout the season. And at first, you'll be looking to identify the pair is a breeding pair, also known as a territorial pair we use those terms interchangeably. But if you see a breeding or territorial pair is present, figuring out where they spend most of their time, watching them for courtship and territorial behaviors, and if they're testing out nesting sites like RS. As a result, your survey may take more time at this point in the season, then later on. Her service conducted from mid May through mid June are going to be a little quicker and less less time consuming, because many pairs are nesting and laying eggs by this time in the season. So surveyors can paddle to a location that offer good view from a safe distance of the nest. We may still need to search a bit to locate the member of the pair that's not on the nest. In this case, for this example, we can see that we have a territorial pair down the raft here and their other partner is way up further over here. So just be aware that sometimes you may need to search a little bit more for that second pair. Since incubation period is about a month long, you can start seeing chicks hatching by early as mid June, and loons get very sensitive during this time. So just remember to keep your distance. Moving forward between mid June through late July eggs will typically begin to hatch chicks leaving the nest right away, or chicks leave the nest right away after hatching, and parents will take them to a foraging area. So these are the first nesting attempts as they grow. If they abandon the nest, keep monitoring to locate the pair if they're still together, because they may nest a second time. While loons only raise one clutch, which is up to two eggs per year, if a loon fails early on in their first nesting attempt they will often re-nest. Sometimes if they're early enough they can nest up to three times in one season. So in this case, hatching can extend out until later into July or even into August. And when we're filling out and recording all this information, we will be using that survey form like we mentioned earlier. This survey form will help guide you in your survey as well as directing you on what information to collect. This example only applies to a single survey form, but we do have a survey forms that allow you to record observations for up to three dates on one form. If you would like that, let us know and we'll find and get you those resources, but for now for the demonstration purposes we're just going to use a single survey form. So again, like we mentioned earlier, finding those survey forms from the lake specific survey link. Please make sure that you download the lake with your lake, which will include the lake name, the Midas number, these four little digits right here. And there is also a generic form available if you can't find your specific form. And then you can use that form for your specific lake or pond that you can still fill out later. And again, you can find all that information for Midas number and other things like that, from the Lakes of Maine website which will also be thrown in that QMA link later on. Secondly, we ask that you please name your pair with a descriptive name that you can use throughout the season. So we'll name them for Green Island pair or back Cove pair something that gives them a bit more indication that it's that local pair that they can recognize. We also make sure you include your own name, the number of observers and your contact info, as well as the date that you are surveying. Next we're asking you to map your observations. Now this will be a little bit a little bit easier because these maps are incorporated into our survey forms this year. We ask that when you observe the same pair, same moon pair or a family each time that you survey just that one pair. If you do decide to survey another pair we ask you to fill out a separate survey form. Several things you want to track the locations of on these maps are the location of adults, chicks, nests, rafts and unused rafts. And again, like we were saying earlier, we ask that you only record one pair. However, if there is interaction with another pair or another moon that is the only time that we would ask for you to include a third, that third other moon in the single survey forms. The first thing we want to mark on our map is where you observed a member of the breeding pair and we're going to use a symbol T to indicate that so you can see those these two pairs right here. An important thing, an important question to ask is how do you know if it's a breeding pair and not a non breeding adult loon or two loon competitors. And the answer is sometimes you won't but you can verify that information. You can verify as an adult loon due to the characteristically distinct black and white plumage they carry the younger loons will be much more gray and brown. And you also record this and any other behavioral clues that you use that you might see that will help us differentiate a territorial pair from an unattached moon pair. And give you a bit more information on that a territorial pair or breeding pair consists of two adult loons that are observed together interacting over a multi week period and defending an area from other elements. These behaviors include are kind of listed up here in this guy which is that staff or the that monitoring reference guy we mentioned earlier. So these behaviors can include sudden or simultaneous dives, splash dives, chases, wing rowing attacks, circling rapid bill dipings, or other aggressive behaviors indicating that two loons may oppose each other and may not be a pair. So let's do a bit more of an in depth look at this I have a quick video. So, let's see if I can do this correctly. I believe that this is all set up. And can everyone still see my screen. Thumbs up Tracy if that's all good. Okay, fabulous and let me know if you can hear or not to know audio. We're not seeing the video. Not seeing the video. Okay. I could potentially try it from mine if you want. Can you see this, am I still sharing my screen right now. All we're seeing is the slideshow but not on on presentation mode so we're seeing your notes and sometimes you have to reshare your screen like if you're switching with others. I believe I'm just going to stop sharing and then reshare my screen again. Can you see this. Yes. Okay fabulous so let's go. Let's try this again. So here we just have starting off with some common forging behavior you might see pretty relaxed. We also noticed that balloons and their necks are in that very relaxed position hanging back. We don't seem to be in really too much distress. But as this move progressed or as this video progresses, we can start to hear some of the other indicators so we got the tremolo, indicating that one was sort of calling out now we start seeing more of that riding low concern behavior the David wait one second we can't hear anything I wonder if there's a way to. No, can't hear. No. Sometimes you do have when you share a video you have to enable found. Well we might have to do it without. What I can do is I can we can link the video in the q amp a section as well too so for people if they want to try and follow along as we're going along quickly or they can ask it later on, I think would be a great idea to to get more of those audio indicators but at least for the visually what a some of these territorial behaviors might look like. I might just say that they can hear it so I guess it's just me who can't hear the video so that's good. Okay. Again, if you can hear it fantastic if you can. We will link the video to give you that audio cues later on but really quickly like we were saying earlier. This is more of that writing low behavior you can see that our, our mother loon here has got that neck kind of compressed down it's really scrunched up which is really trying to make herself invisible on the water surface. You can also see young chicks. Very young chicks because they're writing on the mother's back a very good indicator that they're very young, maybe 10 days old. And they tell that the mother here that was still kind of concerned with something else going on. We'll sort of see what that is in a minute. As this video progresses. So yes as our video indicates, taking advantage of a free ride. And this is kind of this. So we really tell the stashing behavior where the mother leaves the chicks so somebody may see chicks reloading and that may be okay. But now we start to see a introduction of a third loon. And this circling behavior. We mentioned earlier, kind of starting to see a little bit more of aggression coming out. A little bit more of these. Here's here's a great video that circling behavior where they're all kind of looking eyes lock you can see that their. Their heads are furrowed. And now on the left here, you might get a chance to see what we'd like to call penguin dance, where they sort of walk on their back flags and feels right there out of their pair. That is a sign of a serious territorial behavior right there to some kind of distress and considering that they're fighting. I would say that they probably are pretty in distress. So I'll stop my video for now. Like I said, we'll link that in the later on if you'd like to see. If you would like to see that in its full completion, I highly encourage you do it as a great examples of a lot of those behavioral traits we were talking about. But I'm going to continue on with the rest of our presentation just so I know we're a little tight for time. Okay. Outside of territorial behaviors, we also can indicate other behaviors can indicate that it is a breeding pair if we have courtship behaviors. So some examples of this include exchanging of whales or hoots and synchronized movements around their territory, especially concerning relaxed foraging.  Mating or exploring of nest sites are a couple of the other indicators of courtship behaviors. If you notice any of these behaviors, we do have sections on our survey form for you to fill out when you notice them. So mark any of the behaviors you observe on the form to help us confirm that this is a likely pair or a pair and arrival. Many of these behaviors we have already gone over and this survey just simply models how to record a head raised alert behavior that you might see on alone. So mark a loon with a strand extended neck, mark the appropriate box on your behavior observed. So head raised alert, next little check here. And that will be all you need to do for any of these behaviors. Mark any and all you see. But Tony will go a bit more into those stress behaviors later on to give you a better understanding of what they would look like and how to get them out. Okay. As we continue on by late May, you may start seeing a loon on the raft or on a natural nest incubating eggs. We indicate an R if they're nesting on a raft, like we can see here, or an end if they're on a natural nest. And it can be rather difficult to notice if the loon is using the raft. It's not always that easy to tell. So particularly sensitive pairs may have left as soon as you approach. So some moons may be off the nest for a time. When this happens we ask that you a do not approach the raft, especially after early into mid May. When you see the loons on the raft, look for eggs with binoculars. And if you don't see any binoculars called an unused raft for this survey, but keep watching and be willing to amend your answers over more surveys if you see anything that showcases something different. During this time, we want to record the nesting activity during each survey. We want to record the nesting activity like you do like you've done before by checking the appropriate boxes. For example, if you see loons on the shore for a short period of time, you can check exploring nesting testing nest sites. If you see eggs on the nest once or a loon was on the nest each survey and is now gone. You would like to check empty nest. Or if you find floating eggs, eggshells or the eggs are now missing, you can also check that fifth box eggs missing or empty nest. If they abandon the nest, they may try again. So if a pair is an unsuccessful once keep watching them and look again for courtship and territorial behaviors. If they try nesting again in the same or new location, check re nesting and mark that on the market appropriate location on the map. Finally, we'd ask you to make sure you include circle, which is a development of the chicks are at to determine this, we can use this slide, or our staff reference field that like we talked about earlier, but to give you a little overview. In the earliest weeks, chicks may ride on the parents back. They are covered in fluffy, dark, downy feathers, or light brown down with a white belly. They're about a third in the length of an adult. And if you see chicks riding on a parents back. That is a firm indicator that it is a young chick, because they are only able to do that when they're less than 10 days old. Chicks rapidly mature between mid June through late July, and surveys take taking during this time frame a document chicks ranging from small young to large young chicks in the small young stage are a third two thirds of the adult length. Have a mix of that brown down and smooth gray contour feathers and are about four to 10 weeks old. As we go along in the season chicks seen in August and later will normally be in the large category unless re nesting has delayed the hatching date. So these chicks are typically two thirds of the adult length full covering of light and dark gray feathers, no down feathers anymore. They're still cared for by their parents but by week 12 they will be fully mature. And again, just for your own reference. This is the reference guide we have mentioned earlier, and these are the same information indicated here, but just for your convenience as well. And we asked for you to complete monitoring, continue it for at least six or sorry, monitor survey should continue until the chicks have flown away from the lake, or at about six weeks old through August or sometimes later. So that come back covers the front side of our form. I know it's a lot of information but you'll definitely be able to work through pretty quickly and Tony will now come hop in and show us what the back would look like. Awesome. Thank you. Awesome. Thank you so much Tracy and David for all that very helpful information. So I will continue to talk about how to fill out the surveys, but also how to evaluate habitat for potential for potential nest and failures, and for reporting any incidents. So this is the second half of the form. It's right on the back when you flip it over it's really important to fill out the backside so we can just have complete information on each territory. So in the form captures and summarizes key dates and numbers and events. So this first circle here it shows, for example, when the balloon started sitting on the nest, when the first check, when the first check was cited, and when they started renessing after a failed attempt. And also numbers such as total eggs like is an important concept to put on this and it's important to not approach the nest too close and make sure to use binoculars when doing so, because the loon nest and success is much more important than the data. So this is what a photo of what loon eggs will look like. Again, never approach them too close and just get the best accurate data that you can get with binoculars and making sure to not disrupt the adults and leave in the eggs and a vulnerable situation. So we want to record important events like loon harassment, injury or deaths on the lake. And so on this back of the form we also have the Warren's number. And if you find a debt or injured loon or if any actions that was caused towards the loon to like leave the nest, endure harassment or death, please also give us a call. When alerting of these incidents, it's really important to try to get pictures as best as you can just so we have better documentation. And this section of our back of the side of the form replaces our incidents report from last year. So this upper right hand section, if, if a nest is abandoned or the eggs don't hatch. This is another example of when you would take photos, again without getting too close to the eggs and if you do think the nest is abandoned it's really important to not collect the eggs and just please leave them where they are. And if you have any clues as to why the chicks didn't hatch this is where you would market. So I know it's hard to kind of piece together the puzzle and try to figure out why a nest was abandoned or why the loon eggs have failed but some examples of that could be if you hear loons and commotion the night that could have been predation, or you could witness a bird attack on the nest, or if you know that the lake level tends to fluctuate a lot that could be another reason. So those are just all examples of those this top left photo. I'm freezing a little bit Tony, hopefully, hopefully you'll stay. Okay, cut out for good, we'll take over. Okay. I'm so sorry. So, and then assess the nest and success and failure so these are some examples of photos you can take. So the upper left hand one is of a flooded nest, and then this lower right hand one it's a nest stranded so a loon was trying to push itself out of the mud when the water level decrease and you can see it's the path that it pushed itself along. So yeah causes of nest failure it could be predation fluctuated water levels boat wake human disturbances, and sometimes we won't be able to determine the exact cause but with detailed notes and pictures it really helps us piece the puzzle together, and any information on a site is really valuable. And then if you do see a banded eggs please just leave them there and to not collect them, and we also have a lot more information on this on our website to if you want to get more details about it. And then this is where the comments section and this is where you put any details that you might help this help us decipher what happened, and any key additions to the stories. And then also please be sure to send us photos, whether that's just like the nest inside or a habitat disturbance. We think it's like really helpful as a tool to piece together the story but also just as a learning lesson and if we ever do use any of your photos, we will be sure to ask for your permission before we ever use them. So submit in the data we have both a paper form and an I'm in an online option. If you do choose the paper form, please be sure to mail the survey form, at least once per month. And you can choose whatever data form that you would be most comfortable use. And so the online data entry, you can enter your survey data online, and it will help us a lot and managing the data and really appreciate it. The link to our online data entry form is included in this monitor and instructions and I've also include the link here. So when we come to onsite with you to build the raft and deploy it we will be sure to go over and review the online data entry portal if you're interested in that. So you will be provided some additional training. And when you're filling out this survey, it's really important to hit the submit button at the end so we make sure that we retrieve your data. So definitely just get in touch with us if you need anything corrected or updated, and this form was approved, improved a lot from last year and made a lot more simplified. And I also just want to say a huge thanks to Maggie Welch from like environmental association because she worked really hard on this form. And she created the whole thing so it's very helpful and thank you so so much. Thank you. Yes, yes, thank you. And so how to survey responsible, responsibly, wounds are parents to and before you head out just remember to survey with caution, especially when they're when the chicks are incubated and during hatching periods because they are particularly really sensitive to disturbance so just remember this safety of you and for the loans make sure you're kept at a healthy distance and collecting all this data with the use of binoculars. And so, with that too, when you're going out into the field it's really important to familiarize yourself with resources before heading out to monitor. So all volunteers will be provided with this behavior brochure, it can also be printed from the website. The link is more online behavior will take you to the website with videos and photos of the behaviors and what they mean. And during these surveys it's important to recognize these behaviors and if your presence evokes any type of concerned or stress response that you should move away. There's balloons in your safety are again more important. And also, I put a link below on where it says loom behaviors images and videos the Loom Preservation Committee has a really helpful template to just overview and each of the behaviors so it's really helpful. And yeah, and also during your survey, you want to make any marks of any stress behaviors directed at you or someone on the lake on the front of the monitoring form. So I'll get more into these but some examples of that could be head down on the next calls, evasive or aggressive behaviors. So some examples of that when on the nest relax for stress so the bottom right hand photo shows the head down on the nest. This is a posture that you do not want to see, and it means you are very, you are too close to the balloon and the moon is really really anxious and getting ready to slip off the nest into the water which would leave the eggs and a really vulnerable situation to predation or any other threats are currently on the lake and so what you want to look for are the looms on the upper left hand corner there, kind of just more relaxed on their nest surveying their territory, not in that stress anxious position. And then also on the water you can see relax first stress and so relax like the, as David mentioned the chicks are right in the wounds back and in the stress position they're doing what's called the penguin dance and sometimes I think some normal behavior like prenen or prenen can sometimes be confused with this behavior but with the penguin dance. They're in a very dominant like as shape with its head pulled back and the flippers are hidden the water out in front and a very rapid motion. And so on the water concerned concern can be a bit more tricky, but I like to think of it as like the neck is way more elongated and alert, and the head is squared off. And it doesn't mean you have to move away but you want to watch for signs of agitation or increase in stress signals so signs of escape dive in swimming away. And the penguin dance like all of those indicators you should look out for in vocalizations. And with that said, not every indicator indicates, not every behavior indicates distress. And so some behaviors are normal like parts of prenen that I mentioned. They'll just like clean their feathers or they'll lay on their side and clean sometimes they're foraging or sometimes they're just stretching or exercising their winds. And in this case, sometimes they're telling the kids some tales of some fish or whatever fun event went on that day. And so next steps. And so first we want to make sure we completed a lake assessment at your lake and so we've been reaching out to various lakes. And if we have not yet, we will be or if you want to contact us if you have any questions about scheduling or anything that is fine too but we're in the midst of scheduling everyone. We want to complete this lake assessment so we can determine which type of raft would be most beneficial based off your territory threats and we can assess the lake conditions. And then you can also contact me David or Olivia to schedule a raft appointment date if you are cleared for one. That's our email below and then as Tracy mentioned earlier, depending upon where you are in Maine, some of you will be working with Maggie Welch. And also, if you worked with Maine Lakes last year, this year you'll be working with Maine Audubon. So yeah, we'll continue getting in touch with everyone and then we can deploy the rafts and the fun begins with the monitoring. And thank you so much for everyone coming to this webinar because none of this would be possible and this project cannot be completed with any of the volunteers and so we really appreciate all like the hard work and hours like you put into this project it's greatly appreciated and we are all just very excited for the season. Thank you. All right and I guess. Thank you. Yeah. Yeah, so I've been answering a lot of questions along the way. But we can also unmute you if a. Yeah, if anyone has wants to raise their hand you can do that and we can unmute you. Or we can, yeah, and you to answer more questions by q amp a. Okay, Mary let's see. Can you hear me. Yeah. We're on privacy, which I think last summer, 88 looms, and we did have a couple of rafts, but we weren't involved so we're just wondering how do we get started like is there a team captain on the lake or something so that we're not. Yeah, it is. Yeah, so I won't say who that is just for privacy reasons but I will send you, she'll be very happy to hear from you and to work with you so. Yeah, there's a big training program going on on Cobbys this year. And it's just, it's going to be happening in mid May just because the organizers out of state for a while. We know who she is know what you don't have to. Yeah, we're okay. She's one who recruited us but she's just confirmed that great. Okay, so we are planning we're going to have a meeting and we'll be at the lake and so Dave is going to be presenting at the lake association meeting as well. Oh great great. That's the meeting that's the meeting in June, but you're saying there'll be another meeting in May before that. Yeah, yeah, it'll just be a zoom it sounds like. Okay, great. Thank you all right well so we'll wait to hear from her and see David then thanks. Thanks. Great. It's a great crew to work with. Anybody else. Oh it's like yeah market again. Thanks Mark for coming if you're still on. Oh great. Yeah. So it looks like David do you have something on to say. I saw a couple raised hands go up down on the bottom. Oh you did okay. Oh yeah I see it okay bill here. Okay I'm not going out of order but Bill can you. Are you unmuted now we've actually got Tracy we have Alan Brown was first so Alan I'm not sure if you can unmute yourself. Yep, I'm unmuted. Hi Alan. Great talking to you again. Yeah. I'm enjoying the presentation, learning a lot. Yeah we talked earlier in the week. Great. You have a comment or a question. I told you I'm enjoying the presentation. Great okay just want to make sure we just cut you off early. Next we have William or bill. Hi. Hi, am I muted. No, we can hear you. Oh good. I was wondering if anybody uses video cams to monitor loom rats with the with the video camera on the raft itself. We do have game cameras so they're not quite the same as a webcam where you're getting that real time imaging. We can put them out and then we can collect the SD cards and it has been really informative where we put them out we have a limited number of them but it catches a lot of the things that just weekly monitoring can't so yeah so if you're interested for China Lake that would be happy. Well I know a lot of the China Lake Association members would be interested. Great. Yeah, so yeah we can see. Yeah I think we still have one or two available so yeah, happy to put you on there. Okay, thank you. Okay, yeah, and they do have capacity to video we just find that uses up the SD card and the batteries too quickly so we set them just to still photos. But you can still get some fantastic photos and some really great observations stuff that you would never see when you're out on the, on the lake so it's a really cool way of checking out and seeing our looms. Okay, terrific. Chip it looks like you're next. Okay, can you hear me. Yes. Okay, I'm from Alamos Lake Association. Very nice presentation and I will be looking forward to seeing you on May 5 I believe it is. Yep. Yeah. Okay, we're will make a set up a time to meet I'm sure so. Yeah, thank you for your presentation. Great, I'm glad you'll be there. Yeah, we're excited that we just recently made contact and your legs so very excited and yeah we'll be there on a grand tour of that area. And I will have a 12 foot aluminum boat available. Great. Okay. Yeah, and we'll come equipped with kayaks and canoes. All right. Yeah we're looking forward to it. Thank you very much. Thank you very much. Thank you very much. You're more so. Looks like a Paul Green and was up the next one. Barry have another question. Okay. Barry. Yeah. Sorry, this is actually Joanne Barry's wife. Okay. I managed the newsletter for our lake association and I think in the past our leader was able to get photos of looms for me to use in the newsletter so we want to tell everybody that there's a big event coming up or an educational opportunity. Is it possible to get a couple of photos of adult wounds with the chicks in that downy stage either on the back or in the water right next to mom, which is when when they're cute like that I think it helps to draw attention and a big newsletter to this type of article. Right, let me get in touch with our communications director and yeah just find out how our permissions work on that. Yeah, but yeah, I think it'll probably work out just fine and Sally if you're still on you might be able to answer that as well better than I can. Do you want me to send you my email so if you learn something you can just let me know offline I'm going to put it in the chat. Yeah, you can just send it yeah you can you can just do it. Instead of putting it out to everyone you can just send it to us to the panelists. In the chat on the panelists. Okay. Yeah. Thank you. And then just we'll see it. Yeah, thanks. Thanks for getting the word out there to people. That's fantastic. All right, and then yeah so now we unmute Paul. Hi. Hi, how are you.  I guess what I read was just asking I understood everything that you were saying I did was just asking if we had it set up right. We're not extremely computer illiterate here I just want to make sure that I can hear that you guys can hear me and I can hear you and I hear you fine. Great. Loud and clear. We did it good all right. Yes, I feel I feel good now. And thanks for sending all the pictures of the day we met up with you that they were fantastic. Yeah, kind of chomping at the bit to get it. That's great. We got our first one out which helped. Yeah, well that chomping at the bit. Thank you. Thank you. Well it looks like we're at one so we're happy to answer a few more questions but yeah I just really want to thank you all for coming. Yeah then I want to stay on I'm happy to stay. But yeah we're really looking forward to working with you and getting the monitoring notes a little different than last year so we'd love your feedback again this year and how the monitoring goes we tried to, we changed a lot based on feedback last year from all of you. And I'm happy to be able to answer all of you in a way that works well for you. Oh it looks like we do two new messages so yeah so I'll just hold off. Okay, most people are just saying thanks. Yeah. Thank you. Did you have another question. No, no we are all set. Okay. We'll take care of everybody and we will see you out on the lakes and ponds. If you have any difficulties getting your survey forms will bring when we come to do a raft appointment or help it up signs we will bring monitoring sheets with us printed out but you can also get them on the website. Excellent. Excellent. Great. Okay. I didn't know you could hear that. We can mute you if you want. Okay I'll mute you but you can unmute yourself if you want to. I guess someone was asking to I think this, this is recorded as well. There should be a way to access this and the chat I think is also recorded so if there's anything that you saw pop up there that you wanted to check out and those links. Those also should be there too. I think don't quote me on that but. I'm working on trying to save it right now but for some reason it's not letting me but I will. Oh no. We need to. Send out an email. If it's easier more organized for everybody that what's that. If it's easier for everybody to have like an organized list of the links we can send out an email afterwards so they don't have to go through the whole chat. That sounds great, but I'll keep my fingers crossed that we can get this recording saved. The recording is saved recording is great I just the chat. Okay, got it. Perfect. Okay. Good. Right. Unless, yeah, unless there are additional questions. Let's see I do see one. They want another one in the. Oh no looks all good. Okay. Well yeah okay so I'll sign it off here and yeah thank you so much everyone and you know we haven't been in touch yet. We will be soon but also encourage you to contact us and I'll probably bring you up on our calendar list. Thank you everyone we really appreciate having you here and look forward to seeing you soon. Thank you.


Morning friends. Hey, how's it going? It's been a while Denver. How are you doing? Good good Staying busy. Hello right This will wait until five after Hi folks Some audio working. I can hear you. Can you hear me? I can great. Okay. We'll give it until five after Hi, Ian. Hi Victor Morning Hello Taylor We're waiting to see who's gonna join us. We're at the five minute mark. We could probably just kick it off and then yep You know if people trickle in they trickle in. Yeah, I think we're good now Yeah, you're getting the chair sorted. Give me two six. All right, and there we have it I hope is that working for everybody? Yeah looks good to me Right, good morning everybody welcome to the meeting and to start the beginning of the agenda then This is Theoretically although in practice probably not quite the last of our current reign of co-chairs meetings because we're due to our term expires on the 31st of March so Anyone who wishes to stand for any of the three co-chairs should go find the mailing list link which is cn cnf-wg at list cncf.io and Stick their name in the ring for one of the three co-chairs and if you recall and I get this wrong somebody will cut me right one of them is the Is for representing cnf developers one of them is for representing cnf users one of them is for representing the Platform part of the equation. So if you want to stick your name in then please send a An email to the email list to make sure everybody knows that you're up for it And then we can get the election started shortly It might be a little overdue because I think we haven't got any nominations at this point, but sometimes soon I will send a mail out to the mailing list to make sure everybody's aware that that's coming around Any questions I Think one thing that we'll need to figure out is how we're going to process it last time we used a system a Voting system that Bill had set up And I think it's open source and free to use or something, but I don't know quite how to use it No, there's a two or three of those I seem to recall the one he had was giving us 50 percent German emails But that was probably because of the language that he had said But I'm sure we can find one of those go and recheck which one he used or find Excuse me find another one, but we'll make the arrangements As I say theoretically the election shouldn't happen with the results by the 31st But I don't think we're going to manage that but let's try and get the nominations sorted and ready by the end of the week Okay, I see we have a list of Upcoming events. I will I think avoid going through the list as usual What I would say is you know that there's a handful of ones there with CFP's open the EU open source summit Kubecon North America I imagine the fall NES is Going to have CFPs before much longer Don't forget to a put your name in if you've got anything you want to talk about and be Advertise around here so that we all know it's coming and we can put our support in in any way that we can help you but Other than that Does anyone know of any significant? Talks any of the earlier forums that are coming up. Okay, then Keep an eye out for the networking edge executive forum, which is due first in just a couple of weeks And we'll see if we can find from the agenda if there's anything worth recommending and then we're on to pull requests Which will involve opening the pull request page, let's see what we can find three open I Know I've got the best practice compliance recording one to do myself I promised you I'd do that weeks ago and I haven't done it So we'll set that one aside because it needs a bit of a rewrite based on the comments that it already has Let's hold off on that one Ian in case Ben shows up I did make some updates to that one if we want to criticize my attempts at Coming up with definitions for things Okay, that's the best practices one right? No, it's the air-gapped environments Okay, right best practices. I know Ben made some updates so Then then it's not going to be here today. Okay Well, we'll start with best practices and see what we find and So I did an initial review I need to go through like really with like a fine tooth comb like I mean, I just kind of like read it like Start to finish without kind of combing it line by line, but I mean This is gonna be one of those things like when we talk about like security like What is too general to where maybe it should just be in a security working group versus, you know If it's good information Do we just put it in here because CNF users and developers might care about it like I mean It's it's a great series of like best practices for just, you know Kubernetes hardening in my opinion I do think if we're gonna keep it here. We should add some stuff around like network security and It doesn't necessarily need to be like firewalls and stuff, but I mean There's like things to tweak IPvS, you know What IP tables does etc that we could potentially add into this and then We either say that we're cool with having things, you know, just generic or we kind of like word Smith it a little bit to talk about like How the best practices are relevant to either a provider a CNF operator or a CNF developer thoughts Yep, I mean, I don't want to get too wrapped up in this so that it's never going to get committed because it has to be perfect before we do it so If we can get it to a state where it's ready to go in we should put it in and then fix it in place But yes, absolutely. I don't think anything you're talking about there is particularly asking too much Also agreed like I mean it's probably Mergeable Like almost as is right now. It's just like I said I'm with the knowledge that we should open up an issue and like a network security section Is definitely needed and then just you know It needs to be relevant to the space. So I mean Just you know specifically talking about bits and pieces on how because I mean best practice, you know, in my opinion should also be a little bit more than just a list of you know Thou shall thou shan's but also provide a little bit of context on you know Why it is a best practice if that makes sense. Yeah, and how you would choose more ones and how you would say they fit Yes, it seems reasonable Okay. Yep seems reasonable any further comments right just few there are just few Indian issues in this PR. I mean it's just minor cosmetic things. So basically the CIA is complaining about trading the spaces and Some situation issues, so I don't know maybe we can merge these activities and maybe it's later We say I'm willing to go in and change my thing from a comment to approve and we get this first draft in and then we just continue to refine it Yeah, and that was another conversation because we were talking about changing the number of approvers We're required in the governance file or wherever it lives, and I don't think we've actually done that yet. Have we Taylor? No Can you create an issue right now to do that? Okay They go Looks good Okay. Yeah, I see I've got one unanswered comment here from last week. So I should go deal with that. I This Could do with a reword, but it is literally a reword. It's just that it's got two sections talking about the same thing This one I need to go and revisit. I believe the point I was making is that there's a lot of Yeah, the wording there was just a little complex, but I don't think it necessarily has to be fixed actually so It just struck me that we kind of lost the Lost the message in the wording in a sense So I'll see if I can propose a change other than that. I see Pankaj has made a comment at the bottom which is Maybe making yeah, he is making extra point so and he doesn't seem to there we are he has changed it to and Does anyone got any particular issues if I just commit this actually? Hold on. I think what he wrote sounds good Yeah, I've got no problem with it. Jeff Victor Then yeah, I think it's fine I'm also of the mindset of for the commits and stuff on your PRs If you think it's good just commit them because the merge itself is where we're doing like the final stop gap, right? Yeah, okay. Well, that one's gone in Right that one seems to be resolved Uh, Jeff wants Victor wants the spelling to be addressed which is fine I think these folks were resolved I guess So he's not complaining about the wording Yeah, I mean no issue with that. All right, fine. So we've got one change to the spelling list my comment here wants a response And I'll go and reread it after this meeting Oops not that one didn't mean to do that don't do that That one Jeff all yours okay, um So I did this first one. I did reword it a tiny bit Let me see Said have it in there And it does say it's outdated so yeah jump over to files changed or yeah views changes. Let's take a peek Um Yeah, this one's old. So there's like trying to like navigate through all the former things. So I added a glossary section Which is not showing up on this change log right here I'm gonna say if I can do that. Um, and then I slightly reworded the section that you were looking at I think some of it was he was maybe just missing a tiny bit of context So I didn't really fundamentally change some stuff because I feel like most people will understand yeah, so That one right there. I addressed the one that's at the top there and added those three terms Let's see Victor was also asking for air gap to be defined so I added that So this one here, let me just ask you I don't know if I necessarily agree To just cut all that out, but I mean It's not the end of the world I feel like with the user stories though providing context is kind of the point, but If it doesn't actually add anything then we can just commit the exception or suggestion in them Accent Well, I think your wording is off. I mean that may break cloud native assumptions I don't think it's cloud native assumptions that you're breaking exactly as much as your You're certainly breaking assumptions. I think throwing cloud native in there is not helping And you're breaking one specific assumption the specific assumption here is that that You're connected to the internet, isn't it? Well, I mean, yes and no, I think That's an implied piece like the main assumption is this notion of on-demand, right? Like and Maybe it's not necessarily cloud native. It's just quote-unquote cloud This notion that like I have resources on demand Right, like if I want an image, I get it. I want an EC2 instance. I get it. I want a container. I get it and The air-gapped environment breaks one of those implicit I get it when I want it type of scenarios So I mean I do think I agree with you though that you know specifically calling it a cloud native assumption isn't right It's more just assumptions that cloud consumers have that Everything is a credit card swipe away or a pull Slash clone away need to work on the first half of it and Something like that. I don't really like that wedding either. It feels like I'll say Is it that the cloud has the assumption that it has connectivity? I mean if I create a tenant network with no ratable IP address and you know the floating side then I mean It doesn't necessarily have I don't know that's let's um I don't know. We'll leave this one as an open topic. I agree that it needs to I think this is closer Yeah, that's better cloud software like Because that's really what it boils down to right and typically when we say cloud software We're really talking about containers and then there's this notion, you know that like Docker hub that red hats repositories that femors repositories that Amazon repositories were always just one, you know Pull command away from I get this container image when I want it or All the like nested curl commands hidden in every single installer I've seen the last five years we're just there's this implicit assumption that if I want something I can just go out to the internet and Grab it. I like that wording the best that I've seen so far assumption that of cloud software that it has reachability to internet services Yeah, I wonder if it's not in the right place, but I'm gonna add that as a comment Anyway, and you can you can consider whether there's a better way of doing it If they're if even if there is a better way of doing it, you might just want to accept that and say well better than it was before The process to pull artifacts does not occur in an air-gapped environment. I'm afraid it does some of this is covered in The definitions that I added which are not perfect, but it addresses some of these things Yeah, I mean You're hardly I talk about I talk about those in the definitions specifically like If you start doing stuff like that then there better be implicit trust to What you're going to because obviously The more holes you poke the more risk you incur in them. I think kind of my issue on Reading this is that if you're in an air-gapped environment, no VPN works in an air-gapped environment, but you're So you're by proposing that you're weakening your constraint from a complete year gap to environment to one that isn't air-gapped Yes, and no, I mean because the whole concept of You know it being a virtual private private being the key word is you're now just extending where this potentially isolated environment goes but on the flip side though by doing that I 100% agree and they said I'm Actually, yeah, it's the next section down is where I added the glossary like I'm trying to like capture that exact point somewhat I don't think I've I've got it there yet, but There's gonna be trade-offs So I agree like in an ideal world if you were you know secure like you're one of these super secret three-letter agency Clouds that's being built in Aurora, Colorado right now They're not going to allow any of that right and they have found ways to still build and run clouds Fully isolated so it's doable. I just it takes work and so then you have to decide for your individual air-gapped environment You know how much risk are you willing to assume because every time you know you set a forward proxy up, right? Because it makes life a little bit easier You're inducing risk introducing risk so So when I change that like because I mean the first sentence is a physically and logically isolated environment like If it's physically isolated it doesn't disallow network connectivity. There is no network to connect to so The point is that as you've written this There is the actual meaning of an air-gapped environment There is an air gap between this environment and others and then there is the Logical meaning of an air-gapped environment, which is it is defended from others and then there's the fact that you're talking about VPNs which cannot be Truly in an air-gapped environment. So my my point is You're describing a spectrum using the words that describe one end of the spectrum I don't have much to offer on that other than to say You know in a second paragraph or a second line that actually You know, we accept that air-gapped environments may be unacceptable or unusable and something slightly short of an air-gapped environment In that direction is what you're actually looking for Yeah, I mean, I don't know. Maybe we go to Like a larger clock. I was not sure how verbose to make this because to your point like That first sentence is intentionally broad And like you said the spectrum being full like I have a Local network that literally connects to nothing else like there is literally pure physical isolation It's complete intranet, right? Versus like you were saying I now have Connectivity, but there's a logical segregation via firewalls and I block everything off and yada yada Which is typically what I've seen most done if we're not talking about one of the three letter agency clouds or like some Facility, yeah, we're talking at work functions. They're not terribly useful if you isolate them from the network anyway, so And then conversely to your exact point though Proxies and VPNs etc. Are basically gap closers. So you're bridging the gap at that point. So then You know, what does that entail? But I mean, you know collectively to the group here like You know should Ian and I expand this out in this or should we keep this one kind of high level and do we need to like go somewhere else for like a comprehensive Or yeah, we can just do in one more definition to go with it I feel like we're getting back into like the early days though of I've grown to hate defining words I know I know I remember being the one so I am I entirely sympathize with this But if it makes you feel any better apparently get hubs not going to take that comment. So it feels the same way about it. Anyway, yeah I'll be honest the next two definitions to you I kind of felt weird adding because I kind of feel like they should just contextually be You know there and the things but I put them in because they were asked for and once again and it's a start I'm not 100% married or in love with the first attempt at wording this out Yeah, I mean you basically said You've almost contradicted yourself in the definition of upstream because if you can't connect to a repository then how can it be an upstream repository Well, so I mean and this is where Taylor you cracked me up The this is where you know your comment though about the spectrum comes into play. I mean here's the thing There has to be some means of getting software into this isolated environment right and I mean So you were some in some way shape or form bridging the gap whether that is you know your own private repository that you know Is able to pull from the outside world it locks everything down before it makes it available to the inside world I mean it literally could be someone walks into this place with a thumb drive and sticks it into the server hosting source control and starts uploading files you know I mean like This is where I think we get into actually describing like the best practices of you know I mean that would be my hope right as we start talking about the best practices of hay afford proxies maybe not a good idea because if you get a bad image and it phones home you know Terrible things could happen but there's there's still got to be some compromises right like You have to have some way of making images source codes OVA is all this stuff available to the people inside that air gapped environment. And I have seen a lot of people basically just turn their private repository into a proxy because all they do is make a request the URL of their private repository but then it instantly just pulls it straight from upstream so then I have the you know debate with them of why set up the private repository in the first place. Indeed yes I mean that is a problem it's pinch point that you can start pinching on but if it's not actually pinch to begin with and it's it provides no additional security and it's currently in its base form. I think like maybe what's missing from somewhere in this like list is the notion of like you know quarantine or you know like a DMZ or like basically like you know here's this gap you know what are the airlock procedures to navigate the gap right. Yes, and perhaps a little more on why the gap is necessary but I'm not going to judge on that because we're not looking at the right section of the document to say you haven't written that. I've offered you a suggestion there but I don't think it changes the meaning what you're trying to do I think it just helps clarify what you're trying to say. And there too to just you know either make like a sub definition or add to one of the definitions something around the notion of quarantining. Or control or something pinch point whatever just like yeah yeah it's not explicit enough to like talk about like I mean it kind of talks about it but it got two kind of technological points to make here one is that. By isolating well three actually one is that by physically isolating yourself from the internet then no attack can arrive from the internet over any vector.   But the quarantining part of that is not the primary point of air gap environment which is the active attacks can't be made in the network it's a secondary benefit which is that having isolated your network then you know you should make sure that anything that crosses the boundary is still is as safe as it can be. I feel like we're doing all the talking Ian. If only Taylor had some thoughts. Or Victor. Akash Denver. I'm ready for a first version of it to come out and then we do another. Well, there's more comments there but we can assume that Jeff is going to actually try and finish this thing because I'm sure he wants it off his shoulders. And with that we will switch to this one which is on my shoulders and which is very old. I don't think there's been any recent although there's been a couple of recent changes. Yeah, I have a guilty conscience on this I was supposed to work on it weeks ago I will take that and run with it I don't want to. Unless somebody's got a pointed comment to make about this. What. Okay, fine. Yeah, I just, I can happily discuss this but I think what's going to do a lot more good is me actually going and doing some work on it. Okay, anyway, yeah, I'll take that. I know that nobody's adding anything to the agenda and I've run out of gender items so open season who would like to say anything. Any best practice ideas or that we should focus in on. And maybe a related thing is, is there anything that we would like to suggest for the test suite to start testing on even if we're not ready or have someone help with the best practice either an existing thing that we already agree on for testing. I'm going to probably like assuming I can get this user story done. I don't know if I'm going to write like a full blown use case for it afterwards or not or if I just start kind of maybe taking some stabs at different methods to, you know, deal and operate in an air gap environment, and then at least get some conversation going. I mean, I kind of already know what my opinion is on some of this stuff but like, you know, there are several topics there like how do you secure the supply chain. What is licensing going to look like in this world. And I think, I think the licensing one is going to be interested, interesting and definitely something that we could build test cases around Taylor, where it's just like we do different types of deployments we find ways to like you know we take in different like licensing systems.  You know, what is license management look like for that. We're just doing CSR spin ups in our central clouds, what is licensing work for that, you know, different environments, different reach. Because, you know, as part of this to, there's going to be some level of security controls right something from like pure air gap to like you know hey, we've poked a lot of holes to where this thing's basically a sieve but there's still some mechanisms that are in place right so like, you know, just, I think an interesting one when you talk about a provider network with CNF is, you know, just the software delivery and management like, how do I push an image, how do I cash an image, how do I license an image.  So I kind of think maybe that's where I might start focusing some of my efforts from a best practices standpoint, because I don't know I deal with it every day now. So it's interesting to me. All right. I don't know thoughts, like, is that an okay to place to start or would we want to focus somewhere else I mean I'm open to whatever I just. So I mean if if you're, if it's something that you're more passionate about if that's a good word to use them, or if it's something you have to deal with the pain. And that's going to be easier to contribute information about. Yeah I think it's interesting like I've been exposed to more stuff right like I mean, you see a lot of stuff from a supply chain standpoint for certain v&f's and c&f's now or you know, they're going to come from the factory with the software already on them, which is cool. Until you run your first update. What does that look like you know what if it doesn't come prepackaged from the factory. Yeah, I think, I think it's interesting and it's one of the few things that's also very, you know, c&f centric.  Suddenly somebody comes in and they're like, here's this for gig, you know, the he myth that I want you to push to every one of your du sites. Right. 15 minutes back. I mean, we don't, we don't have to eat up the hour just because it's there. I feel like we got a decent amount done today. Yeah. Thanks everyone.  Got somebody to ask you. All right. All right guys.


Today, I'm gonna show you how to make some crescents rolls for super bubbles.  We're only making eight, so I only need half a stick of cream cheese. Then we got two slivers of dill pickle and jalapeno. Get your daddo's original. Hang on. You can pick it up at your local Walmart. A little bit more. Now we got our cheesy jalapeno mix. Use your spoons to form your cheese. Place in your crescent roll and simply roll like that.  And our 400 degree oven, we got it. Looking a little crispy around the edge. Let's see how they look on the inside. I now have third degree burns on the top of my mouth. My recommendation, put them in a 350 or 375, but it's delicious. And this is one time that I'll agree with y'all. I burnt it.


So today we're in the breeding centre and what we do here, we look after all the pregnant mums and then once they've whelped or they're birthed, we look after them as well up until the age of seven weeks, which is when the pups will then leave mum and go to puppy raises. My name is Janice Audred and my role here is the team leader of dog facilities in the field. We can have up to, we've got eight kennels in here, so we can hold up to four litters a month. It's pretty average for us, but that's what we always refer to us here, we're like the maternity wing here. I love what we do and I love working with dogs and pups and I've got the best job. You'll start to see a lot of exploring in those pups, they'll start to move around. Pups when they're born they can't see or hear and it usually takes two and a half weeks before that or develops before their eyes and ears open. So before then they rely on their smell. And our plan here or our motto that we go by here is that no mum walks alone. We're always there to hold her paw through the whole thing. These guys are one week old at the moment. Two, two and a half weeks gets quite an exciting time for us in the centre here and for the mums because that's when those pups are going to start opening their eyes, they're going to see us for the first time. They probably can't see too far in front at the moment but that's what will happen. And then at seven weeks they're pretty much weaned off mum, they just remain as illiterate for a while until they are ready to go out to their homes, their poppy racing homes and eight weeks.