Hi everybody it's Sam at Mixed Up Craft thank you for watching my tutorial today.  So this one I've had for a while and I've never done a tutorial but now I want to do a Christmas version and basically it's a little well not little it's quite a nice size actually but this is a fridge memo pad so it's got a nice magnetic sheet on the back really strong chipboard and then I've just created this fun scene and I've just stamped don't forget and it's a really thick memo pad here just plain and we've got a pen pot by our fridge anyway so I didn't feel the need to put a little thing to keep the pen on here but by all means you can add that but yeah this is what we're going to make it's really really simple to do and these would also be nice for craft fair ideas you can pick up these pads I mean I've got this here in China just in a like the pound shop equivalent but I know you can get quite a few pads like you can buy blocks of them you know maybe five in a pack and this is just already pre die-cut pieces that I had lying around but if you imagine them in a little cello bag with a nice pen I think they'd make nice little craft fair gifts and certainly nice little stocking stuffers and things like that as well so all you need is this here I've got some chipboard so again this is just from the back of my paper packs it's about yeah one mil that one is and then I've got a magnetic sheet now this is an A4 sheet and I've then I cut them down to five by five and I did have some you can probably just see it there I said I had some oval dies but I've now moved them on to another one and this was free so I just yeah I thought I used this one so whatever patch size you have so I've got this piece here on top which I actually want to remove so I'm just going to trim that off there okay I've just got rid of that top piece and then I need to draw around the pad because you want your magnet to cover the whole back now I just put across there because this is the side that isn't magnetic so this is the side that is going to stick to the back of the pad this is the magnetic side so what I would say is go and check on your fridge just pop your sheet on the fridge and check which side does obviously stick but for the minute it doesn't matter because I'm just tracing around but fortunately this A5 length width is the exact length of the pad that I'm using you don't want to see the magnet so just you know come in a little bit shy so I'm just going to draw a pencil line there you can cut this through your trimmer this does cut but I've got my big scissors here so I'm just going to do two nice big cuts and then that's done so there we go and again I'll just put across just so I remember so I've got again if you're getting A4 and you've got these little what size pad is this actually it's a four by four by five isn't it yeah four by five you could get four sheets of these magnetic you could get four of these cut from one of your magnetic sheets so already you know you can pick these up you can get them in the pound shops you can get them on ebay you can get them from a lot of craft suppliers you can you know because people use them as their magnetic shims as well so there's yeah lots and lots of ways and then I can just pop that on the back there and you can see it covers a little bit curved there but I'm not too worried you're not going to see any of this but as long as you can't see any of the magnetic strip then that is fine then with your chipboard you want to again make it the same size but you want to come up so I'm just going to do the width here and just do a pencil mark and first of all I'm going to just cut that all the way up so I'm just going to use my ruler here and I've got my old blade in here because I was already making a mini album so let's just put that chipboard like so and it depends it's entitled up to you how much overhang you want so that is now going to perfectly sit on the back in fact I think that's the right amount to have as an overhang because this is what I'm going to start building my scene up on this so if you see here this piece here that's that piece there okay so you're going to stick this down first on the back there so I'm going to apply glue all to the back of this piece okay so I'm just going to sit that over see I still use pen and paper I've got you know smartphone and my husband last because he uses his phone for everything so but for me especially in the kitchen if I have just cooked a meal and then I've used the last of the pasta the last of the cheese the last of the milk straight away I have to write it on something and usually it's just a scrappy bit of you know post-it note that's next to the fridge and I thought no I'm going to make something nicer and I thought it would be nice to have a Christmas one because there's so much to remember during Christmas so that's what I've done so now that is nice and secure and then your magnetic sheet with the cross with the the negative side will then sit over the top like so now I'm going to use double sided my strong red double sided tape for this piece now if you want to tidy that up and put something else on there you can but you're not going to see it at all and nobody's going to come in my house and take my memo pad off my fridge and investigate it so I'm really not worried about that okay so for this one here I use the rosie studio soul and shine and the stamp here is the alphabet labella from stamping up which I think is still going it's just a good all-rounder so you know there are some things from stamping up that you know don't retire like quickly they they keep going and I think I do think that is still going okay so what I have here is I recently purchased well I did when this went out these ones here so this is cozy and bright by pebbles ink american crafts and these are all your little what do they actually call them printed cardstock shapes so they're just two different kind of themes this is another one this is cozy and bright again pebbles ink so I don't know why they're both called the same though because they are different unless they just are quite few you know sets but I prefer this one because I like the little gnomes but this is why I like this project because it's just it's easy it's quick so you want to choose you can see what I've done there kind of just got larger pieces on the outside done some nice bits along the bottom and then just started kind of sticking it and then they end up being stuck on each other so at the top here I mean the rainbow and that green leaf and stuff they're not even stuck to that they're actually stuck just on you know the other pieces so just start creating you know fun little scenes you know you might want to stamp some images and die cut them but these are just so cute I think I'm going to have like the big house in the middle there's another one there as well and maybe I have that house in the middle that you've got a fun toad stall I just I like to look at this and the nice thing about this memo pad is this one will go away and there's no way I'm going to go through all of that you know through the month of December so I'll have it again for next year and you know I can create create something again or you know keep this one going so there you go that's the one I wanted to use so I'm going to have him on one side you don't want you want to make sure it covers all the chipboard you don't want to see any of that so I'm going to have him there the house will go in the middle then you've got a funny look Christmas sloth how cool he's going to look really fun kind of up the top there so might have him there that way and then you've got the nice flowers as well but basically the aim is to completely cover the chipboard and have that kind of fan effect okay so I'm going to have a little play around here enjoy it have fun you know I love all these lovely little creatures although look at him as well oh look maybe I could have one on each side who knows right leave me to it and I will see what I come up with okay so it's going to be something like that none of it's stuck down yet so I'm just gonna the base pieces will be stuck with wet glue and then some bits are actually on foam as well so you have a bit of dimension so like this little guy here and maybe the bird you know him they're all going to be kind of lifted as well so you just then want to get it all stuck down okay so that is what I've done I love it how cool is that that just looks so nice to look at now on my fridge and yeah if you did want to add a pencil then just like somewhere to pop it like maybe you want to sit it like above here what you can do is just get some cardstock and then if you obviously there's a pencil for example just kind of wrap it around and then you want to stick those together and then you will fold it in half in fact I might as well just do one so because I've done something similar in the past so just fold it in half like so keep the pencil in there if you want just to make sure so it keeps its nice shape like so and then just fold it to one side like so so there's my pencil stuck in it and then you know I'm going to end up using this now and I because they've just got this round in piece just trim it off so it's nice and neat and then you can stick it on the top of your thing and then your pencil just sits like so okay that's the easiest way to do it obviously once your paper goes down that will end up becoming thinner and thinner the other option is just to have some ribbon and have your pencil attached to the ribbon and just kind of dangling down the side but like I said we've got a pen pot so and most people do anyway and I've also realized that the reason I had brought both of these is because this is all the messages this is all your sentiments and this is all the images so on here they all match you've got really really fun you know the flowers are the same and look at these beautiful snow globes so I'll share all the links these are from Thompson's craft supplies look at that one there with the house let it snow we're staying home and it's got so much sparkle on all of these and they're they're great look you've got premade gift tags lovely little toppers for cards that one there cup of cheer look there's the sloth again eat sleep and be merry how cute are they so yeah that's the two packs so like I said I'll share all of those for you but there you have it two really fun one festive one all you know anytime of year but you can change these up obviously going in you know for spring summer autumn and then winter again I think they will look really really fun but I do love that and it's so full and yeah happy there you have it I hope you've enjoyed this quick little like I said bonus tutorials there will be a few more and if you have please give me a thumbs up and subscribe to my channel to see more thanks for watching bye


Instead he came back today with another video. Shout out to you between the end if you are not subscribed make sure you subscribe button also Give me a thumbs up guess what baby today. We have some issues, baby I didn't go tell you guys what happened, but we had some issues at Sun Run We didn't have no fun son, but we did get those funds and run. Let's go get a sum. Let's go Y'all see what's going on guess who my god James gold all in my chain Gold all in my ring Gold all in my watch Don't believe I'm just watch. What did you know about that? You know about that J? Yeah, I got two so you just put that in you got to push the other one. I Wish I could have three if it was up to me. I had three That's hey, I do got the hitch though already Then they didn't even know they didn't even know I ain't tell them that yet. I ain't tell them about the hitch yet Yeah, just listen up right there. It's good. Keep it right there Okay now now for me. Okay.  There we go There we go James back at it again with another pallet How you doing? I'm living the dream. I can't complain. I woke up this morning the rest is up to me I bet you with this dolly now. I know it One second So let's talk about it. What was the problem at Sun Run? It was this janky plywood man Look, I had carved this out before because we had a bunch of order We tried to get and everything always get caught right here on this lift as you guys can see it When you step on it all the way this right here, and this is actually lower than this part here That's a door closing. I'm don't worry about that. This is actually Lord in here So every time somebody try to push the pallet and it always gets stuck right here So sometimes I have to step on it and sometimes they work and sometimes it doesn't but I'm sick of this baby Also, look at all these scratches. Look at them because this could have been our floor One of the pallets that we did like last week That joint had nails in the bottom of it and that joint scratch this joint up because I messed up our floors This time we're gonna do something different than we did last time We're actually gonna do what my business partner said we should do it in the first place But guess why I was being too thirsty and now we have this issue as you guys can see yet again Now this is an eight foot piece and this is a six foot piece Both of these were eight foot pieces where we actually cut this one to six to fit inside the van because it's only 14 feet All together so we're gonna do this time as you want to get two eight foot pieces We're gonna cut the second one to a six foot piece Then we're actually going to take some wood glue and glue this seam right here, right Then put this whole seam so it can be one full piece then after we do that We're going to sand it down so it could be nice and flush After that we're going to take some polyurethane or some clay coat and put it on top of the plywood So it will not rot it will not warp it will not do anything and everything goes should go great, baby But hey learn from all mistakes, man. I messed up by not listening I just want to move too fast to get this cast and not have a blast because we didn't have a blast This is not the first time this has happened multiple times When we went to some lines to pick up those orders also have to be smarter when I'm bringing the dolly with me When I'm bringing the dolly with me sometimes that don't get caught I need to take the dolly out Let them put both sets of panels in and then after that put the dolly in like I used to But I forgot all about it because we haven't done that many similar orders in a while, but we have to go Wow We are here at the first job. I've got to be quiet because super early in the morning and we are in a gated community We're in a gated community. Please get off the property. We are about to drop these eight panels off Someone is not here right now, but we're about to get busy and I'm glad you guys are with me Also, I'm going to tell you guys how long it takes us to do this order. We're about to go ahead and get it Let's go This is one baby and we go home. How many minutes are we here? Five minutes is 22 seconds. Let's go So guess what? It took us five minutes and 58 seconds. We got to hit him with photos And we are good to go. Let's go Number two, we are here to do what we need to do We already did that. Y'all see what's going on, baby. I already got the materials out there So now it's time for us to get these panels. I'm gonna show you all my animal. Let's go Let's stay duty and help us at one time, man I still have something to do Make you spend the scrubber. I see you watching me. Make you spend the scrubber Now we gotta step back and hit it with the photo. What's your already know though? Smack That's one right there Guess what? We have a dude that's from someone. He actually is here right now He never even helped us. He's sitting in this car not doing nothing He out of pocket comment below and let me know if he out of pocket or not step back in the photo We gone. I hope you guys enjoyed this video and put me on a big screen like a vizio Let's get into the two orders we did and how much we get paid to pull up on an escalator Order number one when our thing got that done. It was eight panels We drove 30.1 miles and received 84 73 when our thing got that cheese order number two, which was 14 miles away from order number one It was like a 30-minute drive. We had 12 panels and we received 77 29 when you're stopping until we shine guess what tomorrow we back on the ground So make sure you're all chime in so we can go ahead and get it in and get these different ends I'll see you guys on next one. Be cool. Be cool. Be flowing. You already know the ddk and i'm on my way


The results of this study suggest that semi-quantitative FFQ can be used to accurately estimate dietary intakes of calcium, vitamin C, and iron in children aged 12 to 36 months. This article was offered by Amy Lovell, Rodie Bullock, Claire R. Wall, and others.


Greetings everybody. Thank you for coming. Our medical advisory team has given our guest and I permission since we're up here and you're out there to make ourselves more audible, but we're delighted to have you here. There are certain assignments in life when the person accepting them knows in advance that they are destined to be criticized and scrutinized and that regardless how conscientious or diligent they are, it will be impossible to satisfy everyone or even a healthy percentage of the people interested. It takes a very special person, a very public-minded person to take on assignments like that. We are graced tonight by the presence of someone who has done it over and over and over and someone I'm eager for you all to meet. I meant to ask him if he drinks Dos Equis beer because he certainly is a candidate for the most interesting man in the world, at least by virtue of things he's done. And so please join me in welcoming genuinely one of America's great public citizens, Dr. Kenneth Feinberg. We got a lot to cover, but I want to start with the most important thing. Did your family approve of Michael Keaton being cast as you in the movie? My family said, especially my children, that Michael Keaton's a great actor and we marvel at his performances, but dad, in plain you, he really ought to stick to Beetlejuice and Batman. Okay, so I heard that George Clooney was approached, but he was too busy on other projects. I don't know if that was the reason or it might have been something to do with compensation. I don't know. I was fortunate enough to meet you, Ken, at a very interesting and memorable time in American history. I just want to start really for the purpose of reminiscing, especially for our students who are present, about that very unusual time. The circumstances you and I have each related were that you were suggested to me. I had certain responsibilities in the aftermath of 9-11, one of which was to organize and find someone to lead the compensation fund, and we came from different polls, politically you would say, but to me what was always important about that was that what some saw as an improbable choice. You, a Ted Kennedy, a stalwart of his operations for so long, an administration that I represented of different persuasion, actually in the context of those times that rare moment of unity, which we've really not seen replicated since, it was to me an almost inevitable sort of choice, but can you remember now 20 years on what that was like? I can remember like it was yesterday, it was 20 years ago, 13 days after the 9-11 attacks, the four airplanes, World Trade Center, Pentagon, Shanksville, Pennsylvania, Congress passed a law, a federal statute, bipartisan, no roll call, voice vote, unanimous. Let's set up a fund to compensate the victims of the 9-11 attacks, World Trade Center, the airplanes, the Pentagon, and the law required the appointment of a special master or administrator who would have the responsibility for administering this very unique statute, bipartisan. And my boss, my former boss, Ted Kennedy, called John Ashcroft, and John Ashcroft talked to Mitch, the head of OMB, and Kennedy said, what you better do here is you better at least interview Feinberg, he's done work like this, and that began the process. And when I went down to be interviewed by Mitch Daniels, the head of the Bush Administration, Office of Management and Budget, I had in my mind that, well, I'll do the interview, but I don't know, this is going to be a tough sell, Ken Feinberg, Kennedy guy. Mitch Daniels and I sat for 45 minutes to an hour agreeing on the statute, how to implement it, why it was probably a bad idea that some people would get all this money and everybody else, you're out of luck. And I left that meeting convinced that Mitch Daniels had my, if I got the job, he would have my back. He would make sure that the program, from the perspective of the Bush Administration, would work. And I got an inkling from Mitch, gee, you know, bipartisanship, what better, bipartisan symbol than a guy from Kennedy's, chief of staff for Kennedy, take on this assignment. And to this day, I'm in Mitch's debt forever with reverence. No, no, really, this will never be repeated quite this way. And what Mitch Daniels did, to do everything possible to make it bipartisan, apolitical on the merits for the next 33 months, I did this. And anytime I had a problem, we just worked it out like that. It worked. Well, the only debt, let me just correct one thing, that the only debt that's owed is from the victims, their families, and then the citizens of the country for the service he provided. And no one needed to have his back. He handled it beautifully. Just for those, and if you haven't, Ken's written two great books of what is life worth, which is about this experience, and then a great follow on that talks about his other experiences, because his leadership and success in the 9-11 compensation fund led to him being asked over and over again to undertake others. Just quickly detail the others as a preview, and maybe we can sell a few books here. And by the way, if you can't find these books, don't worry. My personal supply of these books is inexhaustible. Just email me. Don't worry about a book, Alvin. The 9-11 fund was followed in the movie points this out at the end with about a dozen more, just as Mitch says of programs, compensation. The BP oil spill, the Deep Water Horizon oil rig explosion in the Gulf of Mexico, the Boston Marathon bombings on Patriots Day in Boston, the Pulse nightclub shootings at that Pulse nightclub in Orlando, Florida, the Sandy Hawk, those 25 first graders that were all killed in Connecticut, the Virginia Tech shootings at the campus where a deranged student went in and killed 32 people in a classroom. In all of these programs, Aurora, Colorado, the Dark Knight movie shooting, in all of these programs, I don't call for these programs, I get a call from a governor, a mayor, and I must say the Indiana windstorm here 10 years ago, 50, I forget how long ago, but where I got a call from the governor of Indiana, will you please come out and help us design and administer a program? It's in existence here in Indiana, but we're worried about controversy, divisiveness, who gets what, and I came right out here, you don't say no to the governor, and we quickly set up and administered the program and we got it done. As you can tell, he has never said no when the public interest required his services, and there's simply no one else like him who has anything like his experience. Ken, I want to, there are many questions of policy and philosophy really that I want to ask you, but first, just to start at the human level, none of us will probably ever meet anyone who has been face to face with more people who have suffered, in some cases, the worst loss you can, loss of a loved one, loss of a child. So you have made it a practice, you didn't have to, to meet individually with as many of those people as was practical. What do you have to tell us about what those experiences are like, and are there any generalizations you could make about the kinds of categories of people? First of all, it's debilitating. It is the worst part of what I do. Calculating value is not that difficult. Courts do it every day in Lafayette, in Indiana, in every state in the country. Every court, somebody gets injured by an automobile or whatever it is. What would that person have earned over a work life? What about pain and suffering? Equals dollars. That's the system. That's not the part. What Mitch Daniels is zeroing in on is the real debilitating part of compensating victims of tragedy, the emotion. The emotion is debilitating. You don't sleep. You cry and weep in private. You try and be as professional as you can. Two examples. A woman comes to see me after 9-11. She's crying. She's 26 years old, sobbing. Private meeting with me. Mr. Feinberg, I lost my husband. He was a fireman at the World Trade Center. And he left me with my two children, six and four. Now, you've notified me that you're going to provide me $2.4 million tax-free 9-11 fund. I want it in 30 days. I looked at it. Mrs. Jones, this is treasury money. It's got to go through the U.S. Treasury bureaucracy. It's a government check. It might take 60 days, 90 days. You'll get your money. No, 30 days. Why do you need the money in 30 days? I asked her. Why? I'll tell you why, Mr. Feinberg. I have terminal cancer. I have 10 weeks to live. My husband was going to survive me and take care of our two little ones. Now they're going to be orphans. Now, I only have a few weeks to get my life in order. I've got to find a guardian. I've got to make sure there's an estate. I've got to set up a trust. I don't have a lot of time. You've got to help me. Well, we ran down to the Treasury. Accelerated the check. Got it true. Eight weeks later, she died. Now, one after another like that, it takes a toll. One more. A woman comes to see me. I lost my husband. He was a policeman at the World Trade Center. He died. He saved 40 people in the lobby of the World Trade Center and brought them to safety. He looked back. There were another 20 in the lobby. He ran back in and saved the 20. While he was running across the World Trade Center plaza, he was killed when someone jumped to their death from the 103rd floor and hit him like a missile, killing them both. Mr. Feinberg, if he had taken one step, either way, he'd be here today. Don't tell me there's a God, Mr. Feinberg. No God would allow this to happen to my husband. And you do 850 or 900 of these individual voluntary stories. People come to see you. That is the toughest part of all these types of programs. Unimaginable. From those experiences, you mentioned in your book two things. I thought the audience would be interested to know. Two things you never want to say in one of those settings. Do you remember what they were? Well, one was a mistake. You make mistakes in every one of these programs. Guaranteed. I once was with an 82-year-old man who lost his son at the Pentagon.  And I said to this old man, I said, you know, Mr. Jones, this is terrible. I know how you feel. Bad move. He looked at me very nice. Mr. Feinberg, don't ever tell people that you know how they feel on something like that. You have no idea it sounds robotic, condescending, pretentious. Just don't do that. That's the other lesson I learned. Empathy, the less you say, the better. Just listen, express condolence. Don't try and twist it. Just empathize with a sigh and silence because people are in grief.  Sometimes I think I'd be better off as a rabbi or a priest. No, really. Does Purdue have a school of divinity or a psychiatry? I think that's... We'll start on it. You're the first dean. There was another mistake, faux pas maybe, that you made. You were making a very important point about these programs, which is that they become a quick and certain way for people to achieve compensation, but then they...  Yeah, somebody was screaming to me about, well, what are the pros and cons in this program? And maybe I ought to get a lawyer and go to court instead. And I'm not sure this is a good idea. I said, Mrs. Jones, really, the 9-11 Fund is the only game in town, a disaster, a disaster. And you learn the hard way in all of these programs. Be careful what you say. Be careful what you do. You're dealing with very fragile people who have suffered horrible loss. You can never get angry. And when they kick back in your face, considering what they're up against and how their life's been ripped apart, you have to be careful. So the question that you've confronted now over and over again, how much? For what? And how much? There's a great line in one of the two books. You said, one needs the wisdom of Solomon, the technical skill of H&R block, and the insight of a mystic with a crystal bowl. By the way, you should know that Ken being Ken, he spent hours with students today in two different courses. One was actuarial science. We have to find such a program in the country, by the way. That was apparent with the student questions. So I'm sure they ask you to take apart for them some of the calculus that you have to use in determining how much. And it may have been different in some of these different assignments you've had. Can you tell in likeness about that? There's two different ways you calculate value. First is the way that all of our courts in Lafayette calculate value. What would the victim have earned over a work life but for the tragedy? What would he have earned? Or she, what would they have earned in net revenue, net income over a work life? Add to that pain and suffering, emotional distress visited on the survivors equals a dollar, a dollar sign.  Now the trouble with that approach, you see, when you calculate lives based on certain assumptions as to the victim, everyone's going to get a different amount of money. You see, the stockbroker, the banker, the lawyer, the accountant, the university president, they're going to get more, they're going to get more than the waiter, the busboy, the cop, the fireman, the soldier. They make more, they get more. That's the American system. Now in a lot of these other programs, Boston Marathon, Sandy Hook, Pulse Nightclub, Virginia Tech, Aurora Colorado, those aren't programs that mimic the legal system. Those programs are a gift. Donors from the American, the American people send in money to compensate the families or the survivors, the victims. That money is a gift and you can calculate value altogether differently. All lives are equal. I have $60 million to distribute after the Boston Marathon bombings, four people died, they'll all get $2.5 million and the rest will go to the injured.  In that system, it's much easier to design a program where all lives are equal. Go on just a little further about the difficulty at 9-11. The statute, which had to be written in astonishingly short order just to explain, the airlines, of course, were grounded. They weren't going back in the sky without insurance and no commercial insurer could take that chance. No one knew when this might happen again. There might be another plot ready to spring any time. Congress decided, so the economy wouldn't stop cold, we have to indemnify the airlines. But then many members said, well, you're not doing that until you take care of the victims. A fair point. Therefore, a statute came together in very short order, which had some defects. Ken and I, you and I had discussions about the bus boy and the Wall Street banker and there cannot be a foreorder of magnitude difference between what happens. But how do you figure out? How do you figure that out, you say? And what Mitch Daniels was telling me, and I agree, why just these people? 9-11. I mean, bad things happen to good people every day in this country. There's no 9-11 fund. And when we sat together in the privacy of OMB, he made it clear, you know, I hope you know what you're getting yourself into, because this could be a nightmare. And we had to figure out a way where we could try with the discretion that I had delegated in the statute to make sure, as Senator Kennedy warned me, Ken, make sure that 90% of the taxpayer's money doesn't go to 10% of the people. The banker and the stockbroker and the World Trade Center, that'll be a disaster. And, you know, that was what Mitch was warning me. We got to figure out a way to at least temper the potential divisiveness of the program. And we managed to do it by lowering, I exercised my discretion, they took me to court, of course, but I exercised my discretion to lower the value of the economic loss of stockbrokers and bankers. I raised exercising my discretion somewhat, what a waiter or a busboy would receive, so that at the end of the day, when you look at the statistics, the average award for a death claim in the 9-11 fund was $2 million tax-free. But the median award, half got more, half got less, was $1.6 million. So we did a pretty good job. OMB went along. I ran it past Mitch's people, but we really figured out a way to sort of temper the polarity of what might have been by dealing with problems like that. Thinking back, the single, I suppose, most important thing that we achieved in the rapid passage of that legislation was to say, we can't come up with a formula that's we're all going to feel good about a year from now. We have to give this special master, whoever it is, broad discretion. And then, fortunately, we found the best special master who approached this with a judgment of Solomon and the skill of H&R blood. I asked Senator Daschle at the time, how much money did Congress appropriate for this program? How much money am I authorized to spend? He said, are you kidding? Just what Mitch said. We haven't got any idea what these lives are worth or what it's going to take to incentivize people to come into the program voluntarily and not sue. So we are authorizing the program. We're appropriating whatever you need. Just take it out of petty cash from the U.S. Treasury. Well, after we revived Mitch, we managed to move forward that way. $7.1 billion ultimately spent, but 97% of the people who were eligible voluntarily came into the program. Yeah, this was very, very important. You had to develop that thought a little more. You applied it in certain other cases. You know, we have a tort system like no one in the world has a tort system, no shortage of trial lawyers who would be happy to take these cases and pursue them, but you made a case that 97% and I think a similar percent in other of the funds wound up accepting what was your argument to them? Speed. You'll get your money quickly. Efficiency. You don't need a lawyer. You can have one. I'm a lawyer. I don't mind. Bring in a lawyer if you want. Efficiency, speed, certainty. You know here's the formula. You're not rolling the dice with the jewelry and litigation. So you have a certain amount of money. You're going to get it quickly and move on as best you can, but I mean get it behind you and try and recalibrate your life really.  In private, no one's listening except me. And that's another advantage you can come and vent or tell me whatever you want to tell me. That menu of key issues, key points, is how we are able in all of these programs to maximize voluntary participation. Why do we use money? I don't see this happening. I may miss it from time to time. Elsewhere in the world where there are tragedies and disasters and so forth. You do talk about this a little in the books. The mind can conceive other ways to demonstrate the collective empathy of a community or to attempt to console those who've lost, but why money? It's always been in capitalist societies, not quite the same trial system, but common law countries. Great Britain, for example, we inherited their approach. Our trials are different, but money in a capitalist system like ours has always been the great leveler. The idea that through the transfer of money from the wrong doer to the innocent victim, you get some degree of equity as a measurement of loss. Now, I must say there are problems with that. You read about South Africa after apartheid with the Truth and Reconciliation Commission in lieu of money. Come on in and tell your story, and you'll be immunized. You won't be prosecuted. That's one way, border and trade in third world countries is a popular device for trying to level the playing field. But going back to pre-revolutionary times, the common law in England, it's always been dollars. Now, that hasn't been a great problem in the United States. What has been a great problem in the United States is a point implicit in Mitch's earlier questions. How do you use money in a methodology that will promote that type of equity, that will promote the goal of all lives being equal? That is a much more difficult challenge in a country like ours where we're with all and ability to hire your own lawyer and who's the judge and are we in Indiana or Massachusetts or California or Texas? I mean, there are a lot of variables that call into question why money. But I don't see it likely in this society that money will be replaced by some other mechanism of acknowledgement of loss. You made one important point. If there is a rationale for what we have often done or what we do through the tort system, there's a wrongdoer.  But in many of the cases that you've administered, the wrongdoer couldn't be found or wasn't paying anything. That's right. 9-11, the wrongdoers were all dead on those planes. And in many, many cases, the wrongdoer and the Boston Marathon bombings, at least one of the two, was shot dead by the Boston police. I mean, there's no real deterrent served by providing compensation. It's criminal. The deterrence is death or jail or whatever. But making the victim whole or in symbolic terms whole is an important function of our legal system. I try in these programs to compensate the victim in a manner similar to the court system, but with benefits, speed, efficiency, generosity, certainty that aren't guaranteed when you go to court.  You don't know what a jury will do for sure. You don't know how the judge will react. You don't know how good the lawyers will be. There's a big question mark when you play the litigation lottery, which you're trying to avoid if you come see the special master or Feinberg in one of these programs with a much more certain result. Now, there are problems with it, my approach, but those are some of the advantages. So, when you're administering compensation from, let's say, an airplane manufacturer, which you're working on right now, to people who lost loved ones in crashes, or an oil company who, although I want to ask you later, causality was not that clear, but let's just posit for a moment. They had blame. That's one thing. But where there is no wrongdoer being punished, money's just coming in this, so let's go back to 9-11. Why that event and not Fort Hood or any number of other cases in which the taxpayers were not asked to make good the injury that someone had suffered? I hear that all the time. Mr. Feinberg, I lost my son in Oklahoma City, a domestic terrorist, the Albert Murray building. Where's my check? I don't get it, Mr. Feinberg. My daughter died in the basement of the World Trade Center in the original 1993 attacks committed by the very same type of people. Why aren't I eligible? And it's not just terrorism. Mr. Feinberg, you've got to explain something to me. Last year my wife saved three little girls from drowning in the Mississippi River, and then she drowned a heroine. Where's my check? See, that's what Mitch meant when he said, I don't know about this. I really don't know about this, equal protection. I mean, bad things happen. Why just these people, you see? Now, why those people? I'll tell you why, because after 9-11, the American people, not after the Oklahoma City, not after the lady who drowned, but after 9-11, a foreign terrorist attack, the American people and airline lobbyists, don't forget, they all came running to Congress. And the very first point that Mitch made 45 minutes ago, absolutely right. At that point in time, everybody came together, one nation, whatever the motivation, one nation, one country, one people, trying to help these victims. And I must say, the number one lesson I hope people learn from the movie, Worth, is that there was a time not so long ago when 9-11, it was decided by our nation. It's bad enough. It's a unique enough historical tragedy. We want this done. I don't think you could get a 9-11 fund today from one nation. And that's the lesson. I want students at Purdue to understand there was a time not so long ago when, symbolically, Mitch Daniels and Ken Feinberg came together at OMB. But really, we were just acting as agents for the rest of the country that wanted this done. And that's the great lesson. It can be done when we're one community. I'm pretty sure in those conversations, I didn't commit the full part of saying better you than me, but I might have been thinking it. Your books are very honest. No surprise to those who know you. You say some of the funds, projects you've worked on should not be replicated, but then others maybe are good models. So maybe we could spend a minute or two. You could distinguish those. For instance, you did describe the structure and the setup of the Gulf Coast Compensation Fund. This was the BP oil spill as a significant achievement. Talk about that one and why it might be a good model, whereas maybe 9-11 or others are not. Well, 9-11 should never be replicated. It was public taxpayer money for a very few people. And Mitch and I knew at the time the law's the law. Let's go forward. But you haven't seen a 9-11 fund since the terrorist attack where the public is putting up the money. Very, very whiskey. BP was a different problem. We received 1,250,000 claims from all over the Gulf, from Galveston, Texas, all the way to Mobile Bay, Alabama, and we got claims from 50 states. I didn't know the oil came to Indiana. I'll bet you there are at least a dozen claims from restaurants in Indianapolis. Really? Mr. Feinberg, we have a great seafood restaurant here in Indianapolis. We can't get crab from the Gulf or Gulf shrimp. We've lost 12% of our clientele. Pay me. So the problem in BP, A, tremendous volume. 7,300 claims in 9-11, 120,000, Boston Marathon, dead and injured, 250 claims. BP, 1,250,000 claims. And how many of those claims can you show a causal connection to oil that never really landed on shore except maybe Pensacola or right around a sort of a 20-mile radius? The oil was out. The Coast Guard was cleaning it up. And yet we got claims from Gulf courses, from all over the United States, people saying, hey, let's take a shot. Feinberg's sort of a generous sympathetic carrot, didn't he? And that was all BP money, don't forget. That's not public. We authorized in 16 months $6.5 billion and we paid 550,000 eligible claims. The rest were ineligible. You didn't know there were so many fishermen and you told me, you know, one fisherman came up to me, showed me that he had worked his whole life and his family had worked as commercial fishermen.  Since this oil spill, I've never seen so many fishermen walking around with poles, fishing poles. These guys, I never saw them all of a sudden. Hundreds of fishermen walking around with fishing poles probably all applied. You'd been on the point of another highly publicized situation before 9-11, I guess, Agent Orange, which we all know something about.  It was not an obvious way to compensate people who it appeared had been harmed during their military service. So say a little about how he stretched it, but what I'm really curious about is however good the result went, how is stretching the law not a risk and how do we know that the next stretch won't go too far? That's an interesting philosophic issue too, say. Stretching the law does not mean violating the law. It does not mean you're acting outside of the law. You're trying the Congress in 9-11 with the 9-11 Victim Compensation Fund, Judge Weinstein in Agent Orange in his courtroom trying to fashion a settlement that will provide some degree of compensation to Vietnam veterans when the other branches of government back in the 1980s weren't particularly sympathetic then, you see. And Judge Weinstein said, for example, well, look, I realized that 250,000 Vietnam veterans aren't all injured. And those that are injured may have been injured into very different circumstances, but I'm going to certify a class anyway. I'm going to let all of the Vietnam veterans go forward in one litigation because they have common interests. There are those who are in the class have certain diseases which seem to be linked to Agent Orange, I'm not sure, but I'm going to let it go forward. Well, the chemical industry immediately settled the case, you see. They had insurance, they didn't want to go forward, rolled the dice in Brooklyn, New York, they didn't want to run that risk. They settled. Weinstein maybe he shouldn't have found and certified a class, but he felt some sensitivity, compassion, obligation. And within the confines of the federal law, I can sort of justify it. And it held up, you see. 9-11. Who wouldn't? Public tax payer money for just 7,300 people. I mean, really? What about everybody else? Stretching the law. You sometimes you have to tailor the law to meet the challenge that is rather unique. One more, and again it was very different than those we've talked about so far. After the financial crash of 08, the government with another tough problem says what they always say, fine, fine bird. And they bring you in to adjudicate what very well paid, high-ranking leaders of some of these financial firms should be paid to stick around and try to hold their firms together. Was that a good idea? Why not just kick them out the door and say they were part of the problem and move on from there? But that was not the assignment you got. This is why it's a good thing Mitch wasn't around in Washington during this time. I mean, really? It's an excedrin headache. Congress bails out these Wall Street firms in order to save the economy. They decide, tarp, tarp money must be loaned to AIG, Citibank, General Motors, Bank of America. We've got to lend money to these people. They've got to pay it back, but we're going to loan billions. Well, the populist strain in American history, the very Congress that authorizes the loans sought by the Bush administration, among others, the very Congress that authorizes the loans then turns around and says, well, now that the United States taxpayer, now that the American taxpayer, the creditors, we think that they would want their loans protected. So we'll set up this populist revenge, revenge. The companies that got the money, their salaries will be, their total compensation will be determined by Feinberg. I got a call from the Deputy Secretary of the Treasury, Neil Wollin. Good guy. Ken, I've talked it over with President Obama and we think, you know, you're going to be the pazar to determine compensation for private company corporate officials. That's the law. I said, this is a sideshow. You can't be, what do I know about what a guy at Bank of America ought to get paid? What do I know? Ask Mitch. You have this assignment. So I went and saw Tim Geithner, the Secretary of the Treasury.  So it says we got to appoint a special master and I wish you well. Then I went up and saw Richard Shelby, the Republican ranking member, Senate banking. Senator Shelby, what do you want me to do? Oh, look, whatever you do, we're not going to object. Just don't expand it beyond these 10 companies. Only 10 companies do you set their salary. Don't ask me. Just don't come back here again. As long as you do what we know you'll do, that's fine. And there you are. Well, we did it. It'll never be repeated. The government shouldn't be determining private corporate salaries. That's not what government does. We're not a bill collector. And I was glad to do it. It was an interesting assignment. Unlike 9-11 and these other horrors, I mean, this was sort of a side shift, sort of a, you chuckled a little bit when you were doing this, but you'd go and see the key officials at Bank of America.  Bank of America borrowed money to repay the federal government to get out from under my program. So we did it. We did it very well. We looked at the pay structures. We made recommendations. We set the pay. And when the program was over, that was it. It'll never be replicated. Just like 9-11 will never be replicated. And I think it was done. And a good example of populist revenge, I call it. But the book is as different as it was. Once again, I'm reading your account. You're excruciatingly difficult balance.  If you pay them too much, that's unfair. That's right. You know, Mr. Feinberg, if you don't pay these folks at AIG what they're worth, they're going to leave the company. And you know where they're going to go? China. Everybody's leaving to go to work in China. That was the thing. They're going to go to China. I go, look, they're not going to go to China. And we'll try and balance this. But it was, it was emotional. It was very emotional. All right. The easy questions are over. We have, as we always do, some students who have stepped forward and have brought, I'm sure, a more pressing and insightful questions than, than you just dealt with. So let's start, please, with Tabitha Akoto, a sophomore in political science. Tabitha, you should be somewhere close. Yes, hi. Hi. My question is, after you completed the 9-11 Victim Compensation Fund, how did you find the emotional capacity to continue doing your work for other daunting U.S. massacres? Now, after I did the 9-11 fund, what was the rest of it? How did you find the emotional capacity to continue doing your work for other daunting massacres? No, I get that, I get asked that question all the time. How do you maintain your sanity? Not, it's not easy. And, and there is, it sounds sort of cliche, but it's true. First of all, if, if President Bush and Mitch Daniels and Ted Kennedy ask you to do something, you do it. And if a governor asks you or President Obama after the oil spill asks you, I mean, you can't say you're too busy or you're really, I have other things or I can't do it. You have a patriotic obligation, but you're right. When you're dealing during the day with the horrors of civilization, at night, you have to contrast that and immerse yourself in the height of civilization, music, opera, chamber music, class symphony concerts, movies, good books, a loving family. When you come home, dad, we glad you're home. I mean, all of that is sort of cliche, but it's true.  Never in front of them. You have to maintain an objective discipline to this.  But when, because when you get a call from OMB, it's not, what are you doing? It's can, we've been following what you're doing, keep it up. The administration's behind you. We have your back. If anybody complains, let us know, and it worked out fine that way. It's hard. Michael Katis is with us from Industrial Engineering. Michael? Hello, and thank you for sharing your experiences and your public service as well. My question is, how, if at all, do public perceptions impact victim compensation funds? And if not, how are they kept at bay from being involved in the private resolutions? Public perception of any one of these programs is critical to success, critical. If you don't have the country behind you, if you don't know that these programs, as Mitch pointed out at the beginning, are largely apolitical, bipartisan. And if you can't say to the media or anybody, look, you know, the families are really complaining, but yeah, what would you expect? The public isn't complaining. The public is reinforcing. Public perception is at the top of the agenda in terms of managing expectation, you see, among victims. And without that, you're lost. And I've been lucky because these programs that we talk about in all of them, every single one of them, you have to have public support behind the effort. And you usually do because it is an amazing thing to me to witness the charitable impulse of the American people. It is astounding to me after 40 years of doing this, the idea that the American people are so charitable and so sympathetic. It goes all the way back. I'm convinced to pure in New England, the city on a hill. We will help the community. That's part of God's plan. I think that is a strain in America that's never gone away. It's nowhere else on earth. I'll tell you that. Yes, that's statistically true. Americans give vastly more money voluntarily to causes of all kinds than people elsewhere. But it wasn't all luck. I'm reminded of the gentleman who organized a public group to challenge and oppose you on 9-11. You brought that person around eventually. But that was an example in which public support didn't come easily. You might want to say a word about how you did that. Charles Wolf played by Stanley Tucci in the movie. Now there's a certain amount of dramatic license. I mean Mitch just threw me a softball, a puffball. I mean there is a certain amount of dramatic license taken in that movie. But it's true. He's absolutely right. It's true that there was criticism by the families at the beginning of the 9-11 fund. Fix the fund. You're not being generous enough. We heard the criticism. It wasn't so much that we weren't being generous. We wanted to open up and see more people and talk to them privately. And we set up these meetings and pretty soon everybody started signing up for the program. And then Wolf turns around and runs funds. Okay, you can come in now. The fund is fixed. Well, the fund is fixed not so much because what you did. But what we did in response to your early criticism and so perception, public perception and private family perception, critical, political, not economic, not financial, political, human nature, that's critical. The credibility program from our school of management. Good evening, President Daniels, Mr. Feinberg. My question is placing a financial value on human life is an unenviable, impossible task. Many of us in our careers will face unenviable and perhaps impossible tasks. What advice do you have for students about our approach to successfully navigating such impossible tasks? Well, if you're asking me, put aside for a minute valuing lives, we all face unenviable tasks. How do we cope with unenviable? And I think you mean professional tasks. First of all, you could have directed that question at this individual here. My own sense of it is, if you think you're right about an approach to a problem, forget valuing lives or whatever it might be. If you think in your heart of hearts, you've evaluated the problem and you believe you have the right answer, then it seems to me you should go with it. In my lifetime, I've had occasions where I'm not sure and I'm going to seek the help of others and get their advice like this guy. But once you collect that information and you step back and say, what is the alternative to this decision that I'm going to make? Personal, professional. I think if you have the fortitude to recognize your position, I think you should advance that cause. And once you think you're right, stick by your guns and more often than not, your instincts are probably going to be sound. That's what's carried me. The other thing I always tell students at Purdue or anywhere else, don't plan too far ahead. You may think you know what you want to do five years from now, 10 years from now. If you had ever told me when I started out in my legal career that I was going to end up dealing with these issues, I would have, in a million years, I would have never thought that would be possible. And life has a way of throwing everybody curveballs. I try and tell students when you graduate, make sure you enjoy getting up Monday morning. It's critical, your profession.  Life doesn't work that way, as I've learned to the sorrow of thousands of people in their lives. Melissa Caiche from Costa Rica. And I should add, actuarial science students, so look out. Were you there today? Uh-oh. Those questions were fabulous from that class. I couldn't believe it. That's why I told Mitch when I came, I'll get more out of this day than the students would. I love that class today. Oh, yeah, thank you. Yeah, but you're still going to ask me a tough question. Not really. But I'm just curious, being part of so many diverse experiences with overseeing different compensation funds, so how does all these experiences have shaped the way you see society or the government, even influence your daily life? How do my experience shape how I view society? Philosophy. Well, I've learned a few things about how these programs shape my view of society. I think that the political tumult and the polarization today and the cultural red state, blue state, noise doesn't defeat the underlying value that I place. On the American people. I mean, as I said earlier, the charitable impulse of the American people, the willingness of the American people to come together during times of tragedy. It reinforces my optimism. Now, it's not easy today. It's not easy. But I'm still a believer. You know, I grew up at a time when the White House was occupied by President John F. Kennedy. And I'll never forget growing up. I've never forgotten what John F. Kennedy said. Serving the public interest is a noble undertaking. Government does not have to be a dirty word. And my favorite, when he said, every single individual can make a difference. And that's guided me. And so I retain my inherent optimism about America, even though I worry about lightning striking again tomorrow. You never know what's going to happen. But I retain my faith in the people. And we have one more questioner for you in this gauntlet. You're running. And is Katrina Hu with us? That's Katrina. I don't like the, my person says to me, I will prepare the question. I just have a simple question. I'm the sophomore and I plan to go to law school after I graduate. So, I mean, like, we live in a capitalized century right now. And everything we did is actually work for money. So, but, and we just receive education and graduate and work hard, but we will eventually die. Then why did we fight for our lives? The worst point to push us to work hard. I'm sorry. Did you hear the question? I can't repeat it again. I'm not sure what the question. I think it, I'm pretty sure that goes to this matter of why we, why we use money is that really the most important thing we could do is that really the right way to value someone's life. I'm not sure that money is the overriding only way. I can only say this. As long as there's been a United States of America, money has always been the, the consideration for trying to rectify wrongs, private wrongs, accidents, frauds, commercial mistakes. It's always been money. It's a question that, that President Daniels asked a few minutes ago. And I'm not sure it's the best way, but I wonder what is the alternative in a society where it's become ingrained in the heritage of the country, in the fabric of the country. I don't think that temporary tinkering with it. I don't think you're going to get very far. It's such a part of the history of the country that you may theorize about a different way. But in practice, I think when there are wrong victims, everybody looks to money as the great leveler. And I just think as a practical matter, it's always going to be that way. I'm not saying it's the right way. I'm saying it's the most practical, historical way, so I don't see it changing. Katrina's question really sets up the one I want to ask as we end our hour. Ken, I read a few years ago, a visitor from abroad, I think you're looking at our whole system of torts and litigation and the way we have approached these questions as a society, said you folks are trying, you Americans are trying to outlaw the concept of bad luck. Your book, the second book, Who Gets What, ends with the line, life guarantees misfortune. Do we need to recover our recognition of this reality that when something goes wrong, someone somewhere has to pay? Well, I would probably end this program by saying I'm not sure that all of life's misfortune requires a lawsuit. I guess what I would say is that life's misfortune leads to litigation and the rule of law in the absence of some better alternative. Now that alternative may be no lawsuits, no recompense. Life is filled with accidents that can't, you can't point the finger of blame. Okay, maybe we should improve our system so that compensation is limited to more refined claims where there really is a wrong door. All right, I can see that. I think that's a good idea and we ought to keep working at that. I'm just a little, don't swallow up that solution though by saying money out in a different form of recompense in because I don't think you'll see that. But there's no nation like the United States when it comes to litigation. Just as Mitch says, there's no nation as charitable as ours and there's no nation on earth that loves lawyers more than the United States. And I'm glad I am one. Thank you. Well, we are too. So ladies and gentlemen, and I think especially I wanted students here who are watching through stream to reflect on this. I'm so cheered each time that one of our students tells me they aspire to public service of some kind. They are usually thinking about holding some sort of an office elected or appointed and that's great and I always want to encourage that ambition. But I hope after this last hour it's more clear to each of us that there are ways to be enormously impactful and effective public servants from private life and you're never going to meet a better example of such public service than you just did. Thank you, Ken Vineberg, for coming to Purdue. Thank you all.


Okay, we can go ahead and get started So this is the second call of the month for the telecom user this calls on the third Monday at 11 UTC or 7 p.m. China's 10 o'clock the first call is at 1500 UTC or 8 a.m So not as I guess friendly for the Asia Pacific time If you're available to join or you'd like to put some notes, please do on this. I'm definitely want to try to Collaborate across this at the times and a few upcoming events and the main one would be around kubecon cloud native con and the there's several Co-located events right before kubecon on Monday November 18th and There's a birds of a feather face-to-face for the telecom user group that will be on Wednesday November 20th We're also planning to do a collaborative set of meetings with these Linux Foundation CNTT and face-to-face meetings there was a lot of meetings and good conversations at Open Network Summit and We're hoping to carry some of that into the kubecon timeframe So one of them is planned on the Monday November 18th We'll have another one Probably the next day or the following day. These will be a couple of hours and Besides any other ad hoc meetings, but we'd like to carry some of those conversations But we had an Open Network Summit on So if you're available in San Diego and Please hey Taylor reach out. Yes This is Dan Conn from CNCF I just want to interject that we do almost have those I'm set and we're going to be emailing them to the list and posting them on Slack and such as soon as we do it's going to be Monday afternoon so after the co-located events probably overlapping with the With the lightning talks and then it's likely the second one will be Wednesday afternoon And I'll just point out to the normal kubecon sessions are 35 minutes and so The request for these was two hours each Which is much more challenging to schedule But we are going to accommodate that in order to try and allow the joint meeting of the Telecom music group and CNTT and we're not going to be it's not going to be posted in the schedule, but we do we will be Sharing the notes here we encourage folks to attend Thanks, Dan. I appreciate it. I appreciate it. Thank you, Dan. All right, and I think that's It for the upcoming events right now that are on the list we'll probably be adding some more here and By the next time that we get together and Dan did you have anything else specific or do you want me to Your name is on the list, but nothing here Spot yet, but I will mention that we'll also be doing pre-meetings for Cubecon Amsterdam, but if we could introduce Alex Alkever to the group He got up very early in the morning in California to talk about the work He's doing and he's going to have a draft to share in just the next couple of days with this group Sounds good. He'll be He's he's listed so Alex If you want to go you go ahead and give an update on the Pig white paper Thank you. Teller. Can everybody hear me? Okay Yes, you son son. Great. Cool. Perfect. Um, so I Went ahead and collated a lot of different things that It's a lot of what Taylor had written in some parts of the outline and created chapter one Sample chapter. This is that Incorporates Cloud native for telco for telecom 101 There's I think a little bit of overlap with what you're working on Tomas, but not too much and Dan and I are in the process of just making sure that it really Maps to what community sentiment probably will be and then we should be sharing it out pretty shortly So the community can have a look at it and and weigh in and You know add their own inputs This is just a sort of a version one. So we're happy to have Suggestions and changes of course. In fact, I'm sure that they will be they will make it far better But it's basically covers It's it will Taylor it's based in part on some of the things that you wrote some of the the bullets on on You know on how OSI layers applied to To cloud native when you look at more than just layer 7 and also some just basic translation from VNF to CNF's In a few other items like that, but we should be sharing this Next day, I believe Dan's looking at it and I'm trying to make sure I have everything in shape on it Alex, this is Tomas. I think some on the meeting might not know but Gargan and myself have also started working on, you know, the ideal CNF part So I we would really appreciate Alex your feedback on that, you know, which are the parts which might overlap and which are the parts Which don't overlap so we should concentrate on those I think time is running short and and and I would prefer to concentrate on the chapters and on the parts where You know, we don't have any overlaps Totally understand I Think that I'll check with Dan, but we should be able to give you the document In just a second Probably That's perfect. That's perfect and I'll be on a business trip anyway. So Okay, thank you for your patience And if anyone has any questions about it, if you feel free to find me in Slack and ask me or Any questions right now. I'm happy to answer them Okay Hello. Yes. So I wonder What's the what's the content of your this first chapter because I don't know where to find your content It's totally not your fault that you can't find it. It's not published yet Dan and I are just going over it very quickly to make sure that what's in there maps to what the community Probably would be interested in because I'm still new to this but we should be posting this For everyone to review in Slack ideally later today or tomorrow or so The bait the basic content though You know, there's a bunch of pieces. I mean one is essentially an introduction Talking a little bit about how bell Canada is using CNFs right now. We had a very good conversation with Daniel Bernier We'll be we also spoke to Rakutan we're probably going to speaking to Jeffrey Salons from charter and then there's a bit about what is cloud native? Which just in case somebody is coming to this who really doesn't understand or hasn't is very new to cloud native just to help them as an introduction a definition of cloud native systems and then Talking a bit about infrastructure deployment and configuration of cloud native systems because for the most part You know outside of telecoms Infrastructure is something that people don't think as much about around cloud native unless your cloud service provider or cloud company Usually people think about it above that level And then some discussion of cloud native functions a bit of history about virtualization for telecommunications companies And then the last piece is design principles for cloud native telecommunications infrastructure and applications So Tomas, I don't think we go as detailed as you do on CNFs specifically Although there is definitely a bit of overlap between the two so we should be showing that sharing that with you very quickly I think I think that's that's okay I think our priority should be that we we sort of merged the two efforts efficiently So we know how we can help best your effort and then we can have a common plan so that we deliver on time Agreed. I think that's perfect Thomas Or you're gay would either of you would like to talk about the ideal CNF white paperwork Sure, I can I can bring up the you know, at least the the contents That we want to put down in the coming days Not sure if Gergay is online Let's check Gergay are you online doesn't seem like so, please bear with me until I managed to share my screen here All right, so does anyone know where do I need to click here on zoom to share my screen? Just let me know if you see it on on the screen Looks good Thomas. Yeah, cool so some high-level chapters and and As per usual you see a name next to the chapter and that person should be responsible for doing the chapter So right now the work is divided between Gergay and myself And the main main topics are infrastructure decoupling. What do we need to do? I mean the first that the whole thing is about hey, we need to Re-architect these applications if we want to call them CNFs And then we have the CNCF cloud native definition which should fully apply but Needs to be a little bit interpreted correctly for telco and and the paper should give you Hints and help about how to interpret that correctly for telco Some basic principles one is the decoupling from the infrastructure to make the CNF in a way that has the least amount of Dependences on infrastructure Then what do we need to make sure that we have the right orchestration and automation capabilities? What sort of surroundings shall the CNF depend on for those and how do we? extend life-cycle management capabilities of Kubernetes if necessary for stateful services Some some words about micro services, you know, what are micro services in a telco context? What is the right level of modularity? What are the benefits of modularity? What are the pros and the cons of taking things apart into smaller pieces in the telco context and what are the typical communication patterns? Then about stateless handling and how do we implement this considering that most of the telco applications are inherently stateful This is about separating state storage and and business logic benefits and and and how Shall this be done in practice and then last but not least networking How to use standard Kubernetes networking as much as possible how to fit in into an existing Network with existing VNFs and PNFs what sort of extra requirements does that put on the system? And then some examples about what can be done in including with those denim and so on So I cannot guarantee that everything you see here would get into the final text, but these are sort of the thoughts We had at the beginning of this and as indicated will start working on these chapters now and Try to do something By the end of the month Then I expect a very close cooperation with Alex and the community for the community in terms of Feedback and and of course every input is welcome here But more like Alex has started on some work on on the white paper already from a different angle and we need to marry the two angles together Questions or comments Hi, I just finished going through the chapters of the ideal CNF document No, don't worry is I think I did justice to at least what we have so far and I think what we discussed is that Alex already started working on something and is in the process of talking to operators. So we need to Figure out if we have an overlap between his work and our work and how can we resolve that overlap as fast as possible? But any immediate feedback from the community That is just one question and the content that you guys working on here Is that intended to go into Alex's white paper or are they being treated separate streams? I'd like like if we could Roll everything into one white paper, but without seeing his white paper I cannot say to a hundred percent whether that's a yes or a no But the intention is to try to fit it into the same white paper. Okay Perfect. Thank you Yeah, so I don't know get gay if you want to say a few birds about this or I think I basically run through it And there seems to be no further questions. No, no, I'm okay. I don't want to repeat what you just said Okay, cool So Taylor that was all from us sounds great Question one question to you and to the community. I think How shall we do this? I can't share this document with the community right away Or maybe it would be more practical to share it once we have sort of merged this together with what Alex has Any preference is there? I think that as is it could be shared it could upload it to the the telecom user group Google Drive and share and then share that share the shared link to On the mailing list and then slack. I think it would be good to get some comments and feedbacks directly on this Okay, so Taylor can I ask you to do that because I don't so if I share the document with you Would you be so kind to do that and share it with in the minutes? Yes, okay, I'll I'll contact you separately on slack for this Sounds good. Thank you Yeah, please Top Thomas, I just wanted to say thank you for your patience We'll be sharing very quickly the the main reason we're not sharing immediately. It's just because I am so new to this I just want to get Dan just wanted to make sure that all the pieces Were you know made sense or were were correct in no in thinking about cloud native? You know for from a community standpoint, we should be sharing it very quickly. Thank you for your patience Sure, no problem And if you feel like you would you would need a meeting a short meeting between the three of us Or maybe with a larger group group to discuss the way forward, you know where to find me Yeah, and I think we probably will want that in the next in the next week for sure sure I'm traveling to the People's Republic of China during this week, but I'll be back by Friday Okay, well, I'm in California time also. So that might even make it easier for them. Yep Okay Yeah, Thomas. So I have a question that I wonder why why do you want to put this chapter separately from the our Company the white papers talk The the only reason I have started a separate Google document for this is because you know I wanted a clean sheet of paper without 10,000 comments and and just My thoughts, you know, so that's because there were many many things many many comments and good discussions there I didn't want to to Inject all these in fact, I started and I realize it looks Very very old and I knew that Alex has started with something and this will probably have to be merged with that one Anyway, so if you make it make the merge easier. I started a new document But what I do here and what we have been doing here does nothing to invalidate the existing work on that other White paper is just Trying to get the work done in a focus today because we have a deadline Yeah, okay, but I think maybe we need to you know, maybe try this for each chapter or maybe that's a you know The original doc is already Being polluted by all those comments Yeah, and I think I think that's maybe that's the way forward. Maybe we should we should you know the plan Was anyway to have smaller white papers, but release them more frequently So so maybe the next step could be to to look at one of these meetings or maybe on the face to face meetings The existing white paper topics or maybe bring some more up and together figure out What shall be the next topic that we attack and then we break that out and we work on that separately. Yes So maybe for the original doc, maybe we can just put some links there so that people can check At the index so they can go to Yeah, I think I think that's a good suggestion So I wait for Taylor to put this into the right place and then I will go in and edit the other white paper Put the link into that. So whoever goes to that white paper. We'll find this one as well. Yes Probably at a point where we need to update the get have talk on music group page to link to multiple white papers We do have the Google by Google Drive That has a lot of other documents so I'll put that on my list to Up at the Google as well as a few other places so that we can have an index out to the multiple docs Yeah, and I think another thing which we might try maybe not with this one but be with the next white papers that we try using GitHub itself and Use markup as opposed to Google Drive see if that works better or not I like it for the PRs and everything the Good thing with the Google Docs is being able to Edit at the same time if you work if you're collaborating with someone else Yeah, I I know more about Google Drive and less about GitHub. So It was just an idea and maybe for collaborative work it's better to to use Google Docs I you know, I'm just trying to find the best option since Google Drive I've seen some complications with many especially those working for Verizon They had trouble accessing the document using their corporate email absolutely and I guess on that if if folks could let us know if You're having a hard time getting access to any of these documents And then we'll try to find a workaround Any other questions or feedback on the white paper topic topics Michael Ederson Are you on the call? Yes, I am I think you had a few updates on the development side on the CNF testbed Yeah, so so I guess to do it somewhat briefly We've been working on some some more use cases We have this gateway router use case from NSM that we're trying to incorporate And I've been talking to Nikolai that's that's part of the development team for NSM as well on on On this because previously when we were using the universal CNF that's being maintained to develop by by NSM We had some issues with external interfaces that were connected through dbtk And and we after some debugging we found that the main issue with that was the the alpine image even if we're running that in privileged mode The sys directory in the the container was still being mounted as read only which had some complications with how dbtk tries to to use vfio bound interfaces so by Remounting the the sys directory in as read or rewrite when we're running the container we're actually able to have much better control of the physical interfaces So there are some updates coming to the use cases that are related to this and otherwise We're just making sure that everything is easy to deploy so like a one-click deployment using helm making sure that we have some documentation And and I think that's it from the the example site From the infrastructure side um, we're Making sure that everything is is fully updated. So we're using the newest version of vpp when wherever possible. I think it's 1908 one And similarly based on some recent discussions. We're updating the Package generator infrastructure. So in a vbench To to the newest version and making sure that we have some some better documentation and some better, I guess guidelines for how to do the benchmarks And similarly, we're running a once we get this in place. We'll be running a full sweep of benchmarks. So we're making sure we have some up-to-date, I guess reference results that we can share And I think that's all for from my side is any updates on the srv and I guess some of this work on multis So we have an example in place for the sr.io v network device plugin that allows us to to Have some better control over the sr.io v interface is handed to each container and that that all seems to work We had some issues with this in in the nsm example. I think the one that will be in showcase that on us But with this this new change to to remounting the sys directory We should be able to use this Together and create like a bigger use case that utilizes both the plugin and nsm at the same time For multis, um, I still have a bit of trouble there since deploying it and following the guidelines for some reason I'm still not able to see the interfaces inside of the container Um, I have a ticket opened at the at the multis github page And I'll try to reach out to some of the developers during this week directly to try and see if we can get some some support on that one and So hopefully we can we can get that sorted soon as well Thanks, michael Yeah, no problem Any questions or feedback? um For the cnf testbed or the items that michael talked about There's and this is the roadmap for the cnf testbed kind of going forward and some of these were mentioned with the Gateway update we'll be able to focus on more of the nsm use cases that'll take advantage of that one one of the items that's We're targeting and hoping to have in place would Be some type of integration with the open site cluster and a kubernetes cluster and We have a few options on that we've been able to deploy open site clusters with vpp networking as the vpp being a high-speed v-switch as well as the ovs and other choices for open sec and there's been some issues with using gre gateways On the open sec side when we're doing vpp And if there's anyone that's familiar with the vpp networking we've Have some open bugs that we're trying to resolve on that We may end up with a ovs endpoint to start for this And we would want to get vpp in place before benchmarking but from a functional side The idea is to have some type of network function Or set of a chain potentially running on the open sec side and another Set that are running in kubernetes and being able to connect those Which is indicating what we're seeing at production setups where you may have Different vendors running requirements Potentially may be running something in open sec and you're wanting to connect in and run those from kubernetes workloads So that's kind of the goal On that one. We're also working With dan m to get some type of use case. This will probably be updated It's matching srv use case. We'll have some more specific from that We have some tickets that are going in based on some specifications That we've been working on you can see in the cnf testbed And we have a few more in the queue like the multis is Probably be updated here since we do have The srv cni plugin done We'll be updating this Match kind of the goals there. I think that's it. So the next Telecom user group meeting if no one else has any questions I can move on One question one question. This is tamash On the on the nsm Sorry, no the testbed Road map that was an item on on 5g slash gsm use case and We have created at ericsson since we are doing a proof of concept with nsm We have created a use case description for a 5g use case So the question is where where is the meeting to bring it on for discussion and Maybe You know, including it in the road map if people think that's a meaningful use case This is this is nikoi from The network service mesh. So tomorrow we have our work group go I know that you're going to be traveling Yeah, that's one of the options then on thursday, we also have the cnf. This is actually There Probably should talk more about it, but if there's a cnf single it's on thursday after on european time So I think the tomorrow meeting could potentially be okay if henrik can participate and maybe bring the bring roshini or the team meet himself So we already have had kind of created some like empty example of like for based on fortune architecture so it would be interesting to to actually Yeah, meet and talk about what you have and we can proceed with that Okay, so you can reach out over slack find us on the channels So I can okay Okay, no, I'll reach out. I'll reach out and I make sure that there is someone from our side who can participate. Obviously I can't because it will be in a strange strange situation I don't think I would be able to participate at that time But I'll talk to henrik and if we find someone to go to the meeting tomorrow Yeah, I think as long as we have the invite. I think we can Solve it Is it possible to you maybe post the link into the chat here or something for simplicity sake? Are you on slack? I am Yeah, we are We are on slack. Okay. You you contact us on slack then. Yes Okay, cool. Thank you Thank you Uh Hi, thomas and nikola. This is uh, jinx Just to follow up Yeah, yeah just to follow up We're gonna get the details or descriptions of that 5g use case Using uh based on an sf Is there a description or any details? Resource there is there is and we would like to discuss it with nsn first if if they also think it's a meaningful Thing then we'll make a public document out of it and then it will be public Okay, cool. Otherwise, otherwise you can contact me Otherwise, you can contact me directly and I can talk you through it But I don't want to go public with it until the nsm community says yes, this is this is all right Gotcha Thanks, I I'd love to get something on the roadmap and we do have a spec area that I mentioned earlier a spec board and if depending on How far along it is We can either add something here and build out a google doc or We can um, here's one of the examples for dano Where we we create We created a issue and worked through Deciding on what we're gonna Actually build out and from this we ended up there's actually google doc associated But we ended up deciding on the use case that we're going to actually implement and that's what's in progress So something like that could work as far as something for the cnf testbed I'll post the to the Network service mesh working group call as well as the cnf testbed and times for the thursday into the The telecom user group meeting notes And if anyone would like to join those two calls their weekly And we can Just ping us in slack if if you want to set up a The call outside of the working group call to dig into any of those All right, we'll Thank you. All right. Is there anything else? the next telecom use group meeting is November 4th at 8 a.m Pacific time 1500 utc. So this is the first Monday Where it switches to the early later time Probably the next one after that We would be doing a face-to-face and we can see if we're doing the early morning Check in with folks on that Thanks everyone. Thanks Bye