talked about their work, their labs. Now you got a flavor of posters that IT Bombay has to offer. A few of them are probably published also. I know for sure one of them was published. She's my friend, Rashida. She presented a very cool project on using eyes and gaze in order to detect hallucination and text. So moving ahead to the next part of the labs. Now you got a flavor of posters that IT Bombay has to offer a few of them. Okay. So moving ahead, we have the next panel discussion. So the panel discussion has a catchy name, chat PhD. Should you be doing a PhD? So the panelists will basically be answering your questions and answering more questions on their own also on your doubts about doing a PhD and what entails doing a PhD. So with that, I'll be calling up panelists into the stage. So the first will be on the stage, Dr. Mayank Mishra. He's a senior scientist at TCS Research. Can we have a round of applause for him? So he specializes in developing high performance frameworks for machine learning and deep learning alongside optimizing AI pipelines. And his current focus is on JNAI code and systems. He holds a PhD from IIT Bombay. He's an alumnus from here. So if you're considering a PhD from IIT or IIT Bombay, he's definitely the person you should be asking the questions to. Moving ahead, Dr. Nidhi Tihari. She is a principal applied scientist at Microsoft R&D. Before this, she was in research and innovation lab in Infosys for almost two decades. She also holds a PhD in computer science from IITB Monash Research Academy. Just an information, IITB Monash is basically a joint PhD program, which IITB from India and Monash University from Australia has to offer. Moving ahead, Dr. Vihari Piratla. He is a very recent PhD graduate from IIT Bombay. He graduated in 2022. Fun fact, I also attended his PhD defense. So he graduated, he did his PhD with Shaman Chakraborty and Professor Sunita Sarawagi. So I have, I derive much pleasure in welcoming him also to the panel. So round of applause for him. So with that, I'll hand over the proceedings to our moderator, Professor Varsha Apte. We have one more panelist. She doesn't need another introduction if you are here in the morning. We had a beautiful talk by her. She's a professor from IIT Madras in case you are not here in works in cryptography. Yeah, so welcome, Shreeta. These will be for you. Yeah. So thanks, Swaroop, for that introduction. And we decided to have this topic of the panel because we find that this is one of the things that people are most confused about in some sense, are most unsure about should you do a PhD? We really would like people to do it. I mean, if you have the right sort of inclinations, we would like you to take the jump and do it. So we figured this is a good way to just kind of have an open discussion about should you do it, should you not do it, and so on. So I'm hoping that the answer is not going to only be yes. So we get some counter views maybe from the audience. So let's keep it lively. I'm gonna start with some questions, but I really would like to keep it very interactive. And I have most of my questions are just backup questions. If you don't ask the questions, okay. So yeah, I'll just get started. So I'll start in order here with Mayank. So my first question is, you know, the answer to the question, should I do a PhD? Was obviously yes for all three of you. So why? Why was it yes? What was it that motivated you to take the path of PhD? Yeah, so I got job, you know, basically I also did my masters from here and after that I went to work in industry. And I got bored and not because the work was not fun. I mean, work was excellent. I was, you know, getting really good work, but it occurred to me that whatever I want to do, I'm not able to do. Okay, the work is always coming from the top and you have to do it. Now here, because I was already part of this department and I had already seen what PhD students do. I was really tempted, you know, to be in this environment. The first thing is, you know, here people are quite sharp as you already know. I mean, you must have seen in the posters. So opportunity to be in a place where everybody is sharper than you probably and also, you know, excellent teachers. Like I attended Professor Varsha's course and she's one of the best teachers I can say. So that was my intention. I mean, I wanted to be in such a place and do some work which I wanted to do. And that's what I did. Okay, for me, it would be slightly long answer. Please bear with me. So actually I joined industry immediately after my BTEC and I started working as usual as a software engineer, got promoted to be a module leader and then was about to become manager. Then I realized, okay, I'm not liking the Excel work. So I moved to a technology group within Infosys and I started working on research projects there, you know. That was also like by chance somebody spotted me that okay, you are good, I'll just join my team. So that was a good opportunity. And then I, when I started reading and papers and then I managed to even publish one paper and file a patent and then I realized I'm liking this. So I had tried my hands on development, being a manager, some bit of research and out of all those kind of I liked research. And then I wanted to do it better. So I saw some of my colleagues around me who were PhD and I think they motivated me that, you know, they probed me that you should do PhD maybe. And then I was like, isn't it too late? I was already 12 years in industry, but then I got to know that, you know, still I can do it.  Also a lot of learning happened. And then of course the research was good and I'm still doing the research. So that means I'm still liking it. So yeah, thank you for that. So that's what my motivation was. Okay, so my answer is partly similar to what my two friends here already said. I also, after my undergrad started working in industry, I think at that time I really didn't know what all options are there.  I also was not fully satisfied with my job. I used to find it a little bit boring, to be honest, because when you start as a junior level software developer, you're given like testing to do. I even tried changing the job to a startup, which was more exciting. But I used to have this feeling that, you know, there is much more that's out there. I didn't really know what it was, but I used to read a lot. So this is, you know, one thing which maybe I can talk about since others have touched upon other points. There was a lot of reading I did, for example, about popular science. So I remember one book which made a really big difference to me, was this book called The Fabric of the Cosmos by Brian Greene. And he's a physicist at Columbia University. And he explains, you know, the understanding, the modern physics understanding of the universe. And I remember there was this chapter about relativity. And usually we think of this as something very hard to understand. But he put it forward in such a beautiful way and I could get it. I could understand what is being said. And it was just so lovely. Like, you know, the ideas were so beautiful. It was so deep. And I felt like there is something so magical about this, you know, this sort of exploration, this sort of adventure. And I was reading a lot of other science as well. Like I was reading a lot about quantum physics and in fact, quantum cryptography. So I feel like it's one of the little jokes that, you know, the universe has played. That back then I was reading about quantum cryptography and now I work in it. It was not like a planned journey of any sort. I've pretty much just done a random walk and, you know, it somehow jokingly led me back to this place that I began. So I felt that there is something more to aspire to and this is something which I really encourage everybody to think about because it's not that PhD is for everyone, but be informed, like make an informed choice. So at least, you know, explore the possibility and see. Thanks you. Thank you. We are in. Why was the answer? Yes. Right. I think some of the other panelists have already covered many of the things that I wanted to say. I will just compliment some of the things I said. I think the short answer is I joined PhD to gain more, to get more time. I wanted to strip away from all the incentives and deadlines of the day to day job and just focus on the problem. For instance, let me explain that. So I was a software engineer right after my bachelor's for two years. And as a software engineer, I was intent incentivized to fix bugs to get a project to completion. As a result, much of my time was devoted to asking how do I improve accuracy or how do I port my software to different hardware, et cetera. PhD on the other hand, stripped away all of these incentives. You have no incentive in delivering anything in short time. So now I could ask more interesting why questions as to why did the accuracy suffered in the first place or why is it hard to port software to different hardware? I mean, if you have noticed, the questions are much harder, ambitious and open-ended. By diving deep and asking tough questions, I realized how little I know and developed a test for the problems or the questions that I want to pursue. Learn to aim higher, learn to break down an ambitious question to simpler yet impactful ones. Learn to communicate my ideas and build confidence along with many other advantages because of the time I cannot press upon. With such training, I believe industries also see value in you rather than your skill, which is why I'm often asked as to what I wish to do rather than a test on what I already know. Thanks, yeah. So that's why I think PhD has changed the way I look at things and also made me a better person, I believe. I have a hugely philosophical answer there, which I'm not going into. Thank you. Thanks, Vihari. A reminder that there is a next question up now on the mentee. Also, whenever we open there, right now, I'm not opening the floor, but whenever we open the floor, you can also just take a mic that I guess will be circulated and ask a question, but we might be able to get more questions if you put them in that forum there. I'm monitoring it here. So I'll just go ahead with the next question while let's collect some questions here. So, I mean, I had two, three questions here. I'll go to the third question that I had planned. So because Vihari used the word hard and ambitious a little bit, students often self-eliminate themselves, thinking that PhD, there is a sense of exceptionalism regarding who chooses to do a PhD. I personally, I think that's very sort of misguided. I personally believe maybe PhD is a little bit more about motivation and so on, but I would like to hear the panel's thoughts.  And anyway, did you arrive at doing a PhD and what would you like to share with the, might be some people are thinking here that they want to do a PhD, but, I mean, that kind of, if anybody's thinking, what can you tell them? Yeah, yeah, so this question is natural, right? And because this is, it comes to everybody's mind because they have done, they have, they are enrolled in degrees with like BE, BTEC, ME, MTEC, which are very time-bound, okay? There you have to get enrolled, you have to attend courses, answer the exams, and you are done, right? You get a degree, whereas PhD is very different, right? So the question, whether, you know, must say, or not, I never doubted because, I mean, I had seen that time is not a factor in PhD. So it never happens that, you know, you get to say answer like, I was not able to do this because I didn't have time. That is never an answer, right?  So that is one of the big benefits on other degrees, the BE, BTEC, and ME, MTEC kind of degree. So luckily for me, I, because I was already a MTEC student, I thought, and as you will see in CSC department's website also, MTEC is the beginning. I mean, MTEC tells you what research is, but during PhD, the doubt came. So when I was doing PhD, I mean, after two years, three years, there are professors here who are in my RPC, RPCs, you know, you have a committee which judges whether you have done good enough work every year or not, right?  And then the, basically the skill of RPC and the advisor comes into play where they've, you know, put the motivation in you and then you realize, I mean, I can really do it. So I would say PhD is journey of breaking you, you know, it breaks you and then it reassembles you in a different way, right? So that's what happens, yeah. Okay, so can I do it or not? I think the one good thing for me was I didn't know what is PhD. So yeah, I just jumped into it because, you know, like I said, my colleagues were there who said, you should do PhD and I'm like, why not? Only thing was I was not a master's, I was just a bachelor's, so, okay. And I think one big thing about PhDs, it's like getting into unknown. And for that, I think I had my experience with my job that I had been getting into a lot of different projects, different, you know, departments within that 10 or 12 years. So I was okay with getting into unknown and that's where I got. But after getting into PhD and then knowing about like, okay, people drop after a few years and all those, then there were some doubts. But I think I took it one step at a time. So let me clear my, you know, this first year. Let me get into it first thing because clearing entrance exam after 10, 12 years of working was another difficult thing for me. So I was taking it one step at a time. Let me get in, let me finish my coursework. One year coursework in IIT Bombay, it's going to be tough. So I'm not thinking about anything else. So I think that helped me to walk through the three to four years. Like every time it was like, it's okay, let me see one more year, one more year. And definitely that helped me. So it's okay to take challenges at times. Yeah, so in my case, I did very much question whether I can do it or not. And it's also partly because I went to a local college in my just where I grew up, you know, in small town Pune just on the outskirts of Pune. And there was really nobody there who was pursuing graduate school or anything like that. As I said, you know, I just joined this job and then I'm reading these books and I'm thinking, oh, yeah, this sounds cool. Kuch na kuch ho rahe, let me try to see. So it was really based on this and I, you know, started by trying to apply. In fact, my family also who I'm very close to and who are very, you know, who only wish well for me, they were actually completely against the idea. So there was no family support. So in fact, I hid from them the fact that I'm even applying and I just applied just to see, let's just see, you know. And then I got in and then against their wishes, I even showed up. And when I showed up, I had, you know, my classmates and all who had studied at much stronger places, they were, you know, much more, their rigor was much better established. So I used to go into class and I was also taking these very difficult classes. I couldn't even follow what is going on. So, you know, people around me are answering questions, suggesting alternate approaches to what the professor is doing. And I cannot even understand what is happening in class. So actually, it's not a question of whether I thought, can I do it? It's a question of I always thought I cannot do it.  I wanted to learn about things, you know. I was very eager to learn different things. And I used to learn not just about some one topic in computer science. I used to attend a lot of music concerts, right? I used to take art classes. I used to attend lectures about gender studies and journalism. And I just viewed it as an experience of expanding my mind. And this is something which I think really served me well because in that context where, you know, you're just, you're just thinking about what you're learning. You're not really questioning so much, can I do it? Can I not do it? I mean, as it is, I felt I cannot do it. But, I mean, I'm learning all these interesting things. I'm working with all these interesting people. So I just kept on going like that. And somehow I found myself on the other side at some point. Vihari, you have anything to add? So just a few sentences. The concept of genius is overrated. It's like, I don't think there's anyone called genius. It's like, I was never the smartest person in any of the classrooms that I sat in, right? But still I think I have come a long way from a hometown called Kovur, where I grew up in Andhra Pradesh to where I am now. So I think that happened because I was persistent. I think that is not well emphasized. If you are stuck with a problem and you are making a persistent effort, you will miss the cut. And I think the idea of the genius is extremely overrated. I don't think there is anyone. And okay, and then the second thing I want to add is, I have an extremely, somewhat extreme experience in that I apply to join as a PhD student in 2013, 2014, 2015 and 2017.  Even IIT Bombay initially rejected me for a PhD. And then I said, I won't let anyone tell me I cannot do a PhD. I think I need to do a PhD and I finally did a PhD. And I think I'm doing okay. So I think once you realize what you really want, I don't think you should let anyone stop you or tell you otherwise. That's a great story. I think I should add, Vihari you got a dissertation award, right? Yeah, I got multiple dissertation, thanks. So really good story. So now it's been enough of a warm up, yeah. I just want to add to Vihari's story, not my own story, but the story that I heard from Professor Robert Metcalfe, whom I met recently at an event, he recently won the Turing Award, which is considered like the Nobel Prize of computer science. And he told us that he actually failed his first attempt at the defense or one of these like really milestone. I think it was the defense or one of the things. Sorry for maybe. Actually no, I think that he showed up for the defense and he was telling how he had a job offer already and then he was worried like, will the job take me or not, something like that. So we can check the source back again. I'm not 100% sure which event he failed, but I just thought that that's really worth sharing, right? I mean, I think more broadly one thing I've come to really understand is that the feedback of the world, right? The assessment of the world, what it tells you, that you're only this or not that or only good enough for this, but not that. This actually means almost nothing because the people who are telling you this it's just a noisy system. There's so many people, it doesn't really mean anything. And there are so many examples we saw Vihari and I'm telling you about such an esteemed researcher so that's, I think, really worth bearing in mind. Thanks. So people are beginning to ask questions in my thing here, Menti. I already have 27 questions. I'll start reading some of them. Please raise your hand or stand up or something if I'm reading your question. So this is for the industry people now and maybe others also, but who is this? What comes after PhD? I probably won't be a good professor as a ULR. So how do I go back in the industry as a PhD holder? I had one industry related question also. So this is more about if you do PhD then how do you go back into industry? My question was a little more radical that given that in some areas, let's say AI, ML and I think systems also in some sense industry has the edge. They are innovating at a much faster pace than small academic institutions can keep up with. So is it worthwhile? Should somebody who wants to do research, let's say even after BTEC, if they get it, should they just go to an industry and hope to start doing research? Can they start doing really cutting research in the industry? And his question about if you do a PhD can you go back to industry? Yeah, so. Who was this? Can you raise your hand? Thank you. So I went back to industry and so basically, you know, the question I probably won't be a good professor. I mean, after PhD, you have lots of choices open, right? So, and one of the thing is your life changes. I mean, I see problem everywhere. So right now I'm seeing why this side is more populated than this side, right? Background may it's all right. And there are many things. So I'll, you know, just to, before I give answer to that question, I'll tell you a very small story. So I live in Thane, okay? And Thane Municipal Corporation is just like Bombay Municipal Corporation. You know, the water supply is not enough, right? So I recently bought a home, not recently in 2020 and I attended one of the society meetings and there everybody was fighting that, you know, we don't have enough water. You know, water at TMC is not giving, right? So everybody is fighting. I said, okay, fine. Next meeting I attended, everybody again is fighting. Then I thought, why are they fighting?  So I went back and that's where the PhD kicked in. I went back and I was did research what is the amount of water TMC should supply, right? And that came out to be 90 liters per person, right? That is the TMC and well established guideline. And then I thought, do we have data about how much TMC has supplied? So nobody had that data, right? So then I went and figured out that there are meters installed in a very corner place and dark place. So every week I used to go there and collect the data. And finally I had data which said that TMC supplied more than 90 liters per person. But still, you know, we were facing water trouble. But point is nobody, you know, knew this data and they were just, you know, questioning. Then I, you know, naturally the data science skills kicked in and I figured out the problem is not of supply. Problem is of buffer. No problem was of buffer. So you remember, you know, in YouTube long time back when you used to open YouTube, the video doesn't use to start, you know, soon. Basically it used to take a little bit of time three, four seconds. And at that time YouTube used to start build the buffer and then, you know, start showing you the video because they didn't want you to see a interrupted video, right? And exactly the same situation happened in my society where you consider data as the water. So water was supplied in enough quantity but there were disruptions of two days or three days in between. So what I did, you know, I lobbied for an extra buffer to be created and we created the buffer. And since then, you know, we never had any water scarcity. So I'm just telling you this because when you do a PhD your mind goes to each and every problem which is lying around.  Sometimes you just say, okay, this is not worth the effort and you move on. Now, in industry, I mean, there are many opportunities as Professor Varsha said, after BE, if you are, see PhD will accelerate your research acumen, right? But some people are born researchers. If you can read a research paper or if you have, you know, mind of finding out what's behind it, probably you don't need a PhD and you can directly join a research lab as an intern. You can start as an intern and build up your research career. But after you do your PhD, the art of identifying the problems, you know, becomes, you become somewhat adept in that and that's what helps. Maybe Nidhi, you can add on that aspect because you joined a job after BE and then did a PhD. So is there at all an opportunity to skip PhD and go to industry or like, or should you do a PhD if you want to do research? I mean, if you want a piece of that, the innovation pie that industry seems to be leading, especially in systems and ML, should you still do a PhD or can you join directly? So both the options exist, like my young said, if you have that thing, you can go. But I can tell you the difference in terms of opportunities that I was getting with a PhD degree and without a PhD degree. So one thing is of course, building you as a person, how different you become and all. Other part is having it in your resume, how it helps you, right? So having a PhD degree helped me to say, you know, first thing was I got selected for one of the entrepreneurship program and I managed to create a good thing over three months and but for personal reasons, I had to leave that and that company's still going on. So again, one tick mark that yes, having a PhD in my resume got me filtered there. Getting a role of a researcher after 10 years of industry experience wouldn't have been possible if I didn't have a PhD degree. So yes, as a person, you become, you know, a different person and if you're already there, you have to prove it and all, but PhD degree in your resume definitely helps. That's what I can mention from my experience. Yeah, thanks. So I'll go to the next question for Shweta and Vihari. So a person, please stand up or raise your hand. This is a good question. How do you select a good research problem and stand out amidst the crowd which already is out there solving a lot of existing problems? Who has this question? Yeah, thank you. Shweta, you wanna take that? Thank you. So I think that there are multiple answers to this question. The most important one for me is that you have to be really excited about this question. So having said that, I do add that especially in the early stages, you don't want to pick something that, you know, maybe nobody is talking about, like you should pick at least in the early stages an area which there is some interest in the community because if you go down a tangent where nobody is working on this question or interested in anything related to this topic, then it may be hard, even if you get some result, it may be hard to get the community interested in that. But with having sort of stated that caveat, I think that the most interesting question is the one that keeps you addicted and awake. There is no really, you know, this is the right question or that. I mean, we see in research all the time, people come up with such innovative and creative solutions and it's really because they had a passion for that topic. So that's why we are doing research at all, right? We, I mean, it's mostly about the excitement of the work.  Thanks, Vita. So what I'll do is because a lot of good question, I'll just pick one panel member to ask. Other panel members, if you want to answer, please jump in. Just say, take the mic and jump in. So let me go to the next question. Maybe this I will pick Vihari first because he's the most recent. Was there any moment while pursuing PhD where you felt confused or regretted, regretted your decision about PhD? What did you do to come out of it? What was your daily routine during PhD? Who asked this question? Can I see? Okay, gentleman there at the back. Yeah. Vihari, can you take this question? Well, confused, I think almost every day. And felt regretted, I think. No, I don't think I regretted because I think it was a very, very well thought through because as you're seeing was like the world is asking me to not do a PhD and it was like a very deliberate effort on me to chose to do a PhD. So I was never regretting that. So what I usually tend to do whenever I'm making such a huge life decision, I don't think PhD is not such a huge decision anyway, but is to write down your thoughts. So you can only take locally optimal decisions. You can never guarantee the global optimal things. So what I tend to do is to write down what I was thinking at that point. The decision could be wrong, but my thought process cannot be wrong. So whenever I'm confused or like whenever I'm regretting, I would tend to go back to such a writing and understand that that was actually a good decision at that point of time from whatever I know at that point. And then coming to the third question as to how do I, what was my daily routine and so on? Yeah, I think I was, yeah, mathematicians perhaps would be great people to observe every day. I feel if you want to know how a researcher should work even when they have no direct incentives, but I think there was this, what's her name? I forgot her name, Devi Parik. So Devi Parik at some point in keynote mentioned that the importance of making a schedule for the entire week, right? So I think my daily routine, whatever that may be, I would schedule that and make that at least for two days right ahead of time. And once I do that, I think it was much more easier for me to get back into doing the search and get into the routine that I wanted to do. Yeah, I think I'll keep it short and stop it here. Thanks. I just want to go ahead. Because I just want to speak to those of us who are not capable of doing such things as having a schedule and following that. Another option is to just wake up and do what you want. Yeah. Yeah. Call me that. Okay, thanks. We have good tips though. If people do need some organization in their lives, then I think there's a, especially I like the writing down thoughts if you were confused and things like that. Those are good tips. I have one question now. I think Didi is uniquely positioned to answer that. There are two, three questions I think asking the same thing. PhD in India versus PhD outside. And some other sort of practical please touch upon funding, peer group opportunities. There are many other questions like that. Jump in other panel members. The reason I'm asking you is, did you actually go to Monash as a part of your program? I went there for three months. Yeah. So anyway, Nidhi's program is this IITB Monash PhD program. So in some sense she did both and others can also jump in. So I think in this panel here, I guess Shweta and I are PhD from abroad, right? And then other three are from here. And Nidhi is like from both. Yeah. But mine is actually three ways. So it was also funded by industry. So that way I had, you know, that way actually a lot of pressure on me because there were expectations from three sides, Monash University, then IITB and my company because Infosys had sponsored my PhD. So that way, yes. So difference-wise from here to there, I think because I got to work with both the guides from here and there. For me, I would say it was similar, the guidance that I got from. So thankfully for the domain of the two professors was different. The Monash professor was actually data science side and professor from IIT Bombay, Professor Mejwailur was from system side. So for me, it actually worked well because I got guidance from both of them. And the challenges was yes, of course sometimes a challenge was there to manage the expectations from both the sides and how do we balance that. And funding for me, it worked well because Monash was funding my thing partially, whatever stipend I used to get was from Monash when I was here. And while mine was PhD part-time, so I was working with Infosys and also doing my PhD research work. So that way I got the infrastructure from Infosys also. So that way, thankfully mine was in that way, I would say blessed one. So I got support from multiple places in terms of funding as well as guidance. So again, maybe Vihari did a PhD here but is currently postdoc abroad. Vihari, you have any thoughts? Lot of people have this question actually. There are many questions on this, here or abroad, PhD. Yeah, no, okay. So I got a lot of thoughts and I blocked on it. And maybe if you, I'm just thinking if there's a better way of sharing the blog. I think if you reach out to me, I will send you a blog, right? So I'll just keep it short and we'll tell you just one thing. I have seen things in Cambridge. It's a, you might, okay. So we have this tendency of thinking that things are much better outside. It's not like that. And second, I think what you, there is a, I think IITs in India have a unique advantage that I think places like Cambridge do not have, even places like Cambridge do not have, is that you get this extremely wonderful attention from your supervisors. And let me put it this way.  There are a few professors who tend to take 15, 20 people. Again, you may not get a lot more attention from them, but if, and for example, Sunita, I mean only like the fifth PhD student or something like that. And with someone, I think I'm the third PhD student in his entire life. So with people like that, I think I was in that place where I think I endowed in PhD just because I want, I will get a lot of attention from them. And getting attention from such world-class researchers was immense for me. I could see the value in that. And I think that's why I endowed in a PhD. And that is something that you would not get 90% of the time in any other places. Okay, I also like to add to this. So I think that, you know, there is no sort of one size fits all answer to this. The right way in my judgment to answer these questions is to really make intelligent and informed decisions. Like what is the type of area that I'm interested in? What kinds of problems am I interested in? Look at the research groups, whether in India, whether abroad, right? And then see what kind of work is being done. Maybe try to reach out to the students in these different groups. So this is something which I would like to criticize, you know, our Indian students for this. I feel that we really tend to follow a sort of herd mentality. That, you know, this is the perception. This perception is not really based on any fact or any intelligent decision-making.  Maybe my family thinks it's cool to do this or that. And when making these decisions, kind of just without any real substance backing it, even within Indian institutes, we see this happening where, you know, people make decisions based on perceptions rather than based on what is the actual work that is taking place, what are my interests, right? Things like, there are perceptions about, you know, funding in India. But for instance, funding is a really professor by professor thing. You can have faculty in any, in a top university, anywhere in the world who does not have funding. You can have a faculty who has funding. Like in my group, for instance, students have done internships all over the world. You know, they have traveled to the best conferences all over the world. There's really no dearth of funding. So this idea that there's no travel or there's no funding, this has no basis. So I would really like to say that I'm not saying do this or do that because this answer will differ person to person. But let's try to make our decisions based on something tangible, right? And here I would like to say what Vihari said earlier. You know, try to make notes. See, if you're embarking on a scientific career, the first thing to do is actually be like a scientist. Well said. Try to incorporate that way of thinking. What is that way of thinking that doesn't matter what anybody says. I'm going to think for myself. I'm going to make my decisions. Where is the data? What is the data? Like he said. Just like he said, right? Where is the data? What is the data? Make those decisions based on that. And we have really outstanding scientists even in India. So, you know, it's very insulting when students, you know, they just say that, oh, I got this offer abroad, so I'm going. So I feel like if you say that, you know, I have an offer at IITX with Professor Y in area Z. And I have an offer in, you know, this other university abroad with this professor in this area. And I have looked, these are the research profiles. This is what the group does. And I have decided to go to this other university. Great, you know. But if your decision making is that this is in, you know, Sydney, therefore it is better. And believe me, a lot of students are doing this. I urge you to be smarter than that. Yeah, you wanna add something? Yeah, just to add one more data point. How many of you have seen Hostel 12 in the campus? You have seen, if those of you who have not seen, just go and see. I mean, the kind of, you know, the quality of life which you have here, right? The hostels which we have, you wake up, you go, you have nice breakfast ready.   It's like very good quality of life. Great, yeah. I like the thing that, you know, we should get rid of the binary there, India or whatever that question itself should not be there and all these other factors. So great. I guess Mayank, maybe you can continue. So there is a nicely worded question here. Raise your hand if you want. And many people have asked this question. I'm surprised that no one in the panel planned on pursuing a PhD, but did it accidentally after working for a while? Who is this? Okay. So the question is, is it a better choice to work in the industry before a PhD? Similarly, many people have asked, should I first get experience and then, so by the way, I am not in that path. I just directly did a PhD. But yeah, go ahead, Mayank. Yeah. So I had planned for a PhD while doing my amtech, but one thing which I realized, and that is the second part of the question, that, you know, people who were doing amtech with me, who had industry experience, they were quite clear in their mind. You know, the problems were clear. They were able to decide which courses they want to take. And I was not that clear. So then I consciously took a decision that, okay, let me work in industry for a few years, but I will come back. Now, the point is, you work in industry, but don't get into that EMI trap. Okay?  But it's a good idea.  Anybody else? I can add that, you know, for me, it was like, I wanted to do it. So though I was getting good salary, I was living a really nice life. I was also doing research, but then to gain that, actually, you know, the knowledge, the way to do it in, you know, a better way, how do we do research in a good way? So that's what got me into it. So, yeah, having experience actually guided me that, yeah, this is the way I want to take. So a lot of times I know that when we enter into college and when we are finishing college, we are very young. We are not mature enough to even, we don't know what we want to do in life. So that's where whatever is coming our way, okay? We do the hard kind of thing, right? Okay, most of the people today are doing engineering. We will do engineering. Most of the people are joining computer science ID, we will join because, okay, highest thing. We don't know, but we're just going in because that's the most common thing. But slowly when we learn that this is what we want and it may depend person to person, like my aunt knew in his f-tech itself that he wants to do. But for me, it took 10 years to realize that okay, I want to do this. So whenever you realize, I think, because it's a long-term commitment, ultimately, one of the thing about PhD is you have to be committed. For a long term, it needs a lot of motivation and trying to do it to reach the end. So you may jump in, but to reach the end, you really need to be driven and motivated. So that should definitely be one of the factor to get into PhD. You should know that you want to do it. I'll just add one quick line. Just to say that in my case, at least, it was more about lack of exposure and lack of clarity. So I don't think that it is necessarily better to join industry before doing a PhD or anything like that. Wherever you are, whatever are your options, you can weigh them. You can see which one speaks to you the most. As I was saying before, try to find out as much information as you can. MS is a good intermediate step. Like if you feel that you're excited about research, but not sure about a PhD, then you can try an MS as a middle point and then upgrade it to PhD if you're liking it. So yeah, at least for me, it was just that I didn't really know what choices are there. Yeah, lots and lots of questions. One of these questions, I'll take a cue from Shweta right now about MS. So this person is saying, I'm a BTEC final year student from a small university. I'm dedicated in doing a master's in a better college. But about PhD, if you want, please raise your hand. Yeah, but about PhD, it feels too far. So how can a student like me be motivated for research? I'll take this question briefly. I'll let it go to the others also. But really this is what IIT Bombay also has recently designed a program called MS by Research. And it is basically exactly this. If you're not sure about PhD, start your MS. We are soon also, it's in the pipeline, a program where you can convert from MS to PhD dual degree. Shweta can do her marketing if it's already exists in IIT Madras. It's a very successful program, long-running at IIT Madras. But I mean, jokes apart, that is true. But jokes apart, lots of the IITs, I think IIT Delhi also has it and probably others also have it. So I think MS by Research is available as a very good option. Yeah, and I'll take the cue from here for the next question also, which maybe I could answer quickly. It was about, raise your hand. It was about, can you have a one year exposure to research after BTEC? If you want, if you're not sure what you, can you just get a one year exposure? Who was that? I don't know, many people ask. I don't know. So yes, actually, that's another really emphatic yes from my end and again maybe Shweta and yeah, Microsoft, I guess we have a person here maybe not from Microsoft Research and please add here if you want to. But certainly in academia, we have many professors have funded projects and we are happy to hire project research staff. We have all kinds of works for a project staff, whatever we can hire research staff if they're good and they're really inclined towards research, they are most welcome to do research. One of my very good papers, one best paper award that I got was with two, the first author was a project staff. He later went and did masters and so on and another project staff was also on the thing. So we do do this and that's a great thing. And actually if you're here as project staff and then your supervisor has enough funds for the next three, four years, the doors to entering here are a little easier, I would say, I mean at least from the quantitative metrics like gate score and this and that, those might come less in your way. If you have proven yourself in research in a particular institute, it might open the door for you to do masters, MS, MTech, PhD, whatever you want. So please definitely consider that. Anybody else? I fully support what Varsha said and I have two outstanding students who came to me via this route. So I think it's a very nice option if you're not sure, you know, if you're interested in some topic, you can write to the faculty like she already said. And at IIT Madras, for instance, what we do is that if you join, let's say you join my group as a project staff, right? You take some courses, we pay for your courses. If you do well in these courses, then actually we waive off the gate score and such requirements for the next level. So the details are on the webpage, like I don't want to commit to all the details, but there is some step that gets waived if your CGPA is already something at IITM. So this also makes it easier to get in.  The salary is also not bad. If it works out, then that one year that you spent is counted in your degree requirement. So even though you were a project staff and not an MS or PhD students, whatever work you did, you know, it stays on your record, like the courses and so on count. So I think it's really a win-win situation. Any short term opportunities at TCS? Microsoft, I know there is research fellows, yeah. Yeah, so at TCS research also has breed of positions. There are two breed of positions, you know, one after masters and one after BEB tech, okay. And generally what happens is interns who work with us and who really like the projects, they actually apply for breed of positions, but it is open for people who are not interns and who want to apply. So it is like a at max two years kind of engagement, but one year is necessary. Okay, we started a little late. So is it you guys want to hear more? I'm only reading your questions at this point. So five, six more minutes, so it's okay, okay. So yeah, because a lot of questions are there. One, I would direct to Shweta herself. Please raise your hand. What about research in fields that are not worked in yet that I guess you have not worked in it is what you meant. For example, quantum computing, quantum cryptography, we have very limited data and research in it is not easily accessible. Who asked this thing? Oh, you only, okay. Yeah, so at the level of getting into the program, such exposure is not required. Say any field, so since you're asking exactly about my area, I can speak very confidently that it's really a steep learning curve, okay. So it's not that like, I get students writing to me that, you know, ma'am, I have four weeks free. I would like to contribute to your research agenda. I don't even know what to say to such a thing, you know. So you will take two years to even understand what problem statement we're trying to look at. So you have to be willing to commit that time. Again, this is about how much passion you have, if it is something really interesting and exciting to you. At the time that we hire students, we are not expecting any exposure. In fact, I have come to a point where I feel that not having exposure to cryptography is better because the exposure that is there is usually bad exposure, which I have to first undo before, you know, it's like first you have to pour out what is there, then you have to pour in the right thing. So not having exposure is just fine. For our selection process, we only test, you know, the basic aptitude preparation of the student in basic computer science topics and concepts. That is something which if you prepare well for and if you're a good student, you know, you will clear it. And then, yeah, the training will provide once you join. So you don't have to worry about that. Is Vihari still there? Yeah, Vihari, yeah. So one question, Vihari, I think best for you. Please raise your hand who asked this. Can you share any memorable challenges you faced during your PhD or research career and how you overcame them? What lessons did you learn from those experiences? Again, since you are the most recent one and, oh, this is suddenly getting shared now. Okay, good. So again, I don't know whether you heard Vihari say, Vihari writes a very interesting blog. Actually, he addresses these kind of questions a lot about his PhD experience or not. So maybe you can just Google for it or we can share the link later. But Vihari, over to you. Right, it's a tricky one. I think, okay, so I was a bit lucky in a way. What are the memorable? I mean, if they're so troubling, they wouldn't be so memorable, right? Anyway, so I think there are two things that come to my mind. One I think is, I think Sunita was extremely critical about my writing. She said, I don't know, she was extremely critical. And so I had to, I did courses, I did somehow pushed myself to present in so many different places. And that's how I overcame that. Because, I mean, that's a simple solution. And second, I think I was, at some point we had a compute crunch. I work in machine learning and machine learning has that compute crunch. And then we, I mean, Sunita and Salman were in the process of getting more GPUs and then I was facing, and then at one point I wrote a mail to them saying that if you think I'm a good PhD student, please get me more GPUs, right? And then there was a bit too strongly voted from me. But then luckily, the very next week I got Google PhD fellowship and that gave me some lot of TPUs. And I was lucky there. I think, yeah, I think that's about it. I think I was somewhat lucky in terms of I didn't have to face such a huge challenges. They, I mean, as Sveta also mentioned there's a lot of compute, there's a lot of funding. There's a whole lot of things are taken care of. Thanks, Vihari. There's an interesting question here, very specific. I'm primarily from a mathematics background. Can you raise your hand? But I'm really inclined towards graph theory be it structural, spectral or algorithmic. I really wish our whole new young cohort of faculty was here Sujai Bore, Akash Kumar, but yeah, anyway. Please talk to them tomorrow. But anyway, I'm primarily from a mathematics background but I'm really inclined towards graph theory be it structural, spectral or algorithmic. Is this a good time to switch to CAC for PhD? Are there any cons? I guess if they're not here, Sveta, you'll have to take this. No cons. Shorted term. Yeah. So actually so many of our faculty themselves are PhD, I have a mathematics background. Actually, I'm a BSc in mathematics and I don't know maybe one of some of our new faculty also are. That's the purpose. Okay, he also works in the area of maths Maths and CSE is whatever, two bodies same soul something like that. CSE is within maths. Where are the systems people here, the hardware and all of those? Where? Oh, sorry. No, everything is in maths, honestly. You saw my theory circle was encompassing everything in the morning. So anyhow, CSE, large part is discrete maths, right? And it is the only department which has computer science. Everything else is engineering, right? And after a point, it becomes mathematics. Okay, so I, as far as I know, most of these questions have covered but maybe last minute, I mean up till that clock show 6.15, anybody wants to raise their hand in case I didn't cover their questions. Broadly, I think other than very specific like admissions questions and all I've not answered. So we have an admissions booth outside. Tomorrow also it'll be there. And we will linger, I will linger for some time here. Any broad question that you think I didn't answer. So please ask or I didn't ask to the panel. Please go ahead and ask. In which case I'll ask for like one minute closing thoughts from each member of the panel. Yeah, so, you know, PhD looks like a rosy thing to begin. But there are experiences, you know, in during my PhD, my RPC, which is the committee including Professor Varsha, they stopped my stipend. Oh my God, really? Yeah. So, and so every year we have this annual progress seminar, right, APS we call it. And one fine annual progress seminar, they got so mad at me that, you know, you're not getting stipend. And for two months, I was having sleepless nights. Finally. Now we'll be chasing him for sponsorships. Yeah, but that actually opened my eyes and I that brought in much more rigor in whatever proofs I was working on. And that actually helped. So finally it was a win-win situation. So I think PhD for me was a really life-changing experience from multiple perspective, personally definitely changed me in terms of gotten a lot of patience and stillness and of course the way to look at problems. Like, you know, now after that, I always think of why, what and how. So usually we think of how and we forget everything else. So in industry that's how it used to be happening. But then yeah, we start thinking in a different way. And like respect-wise, I think I earned a lot of respect after getting my PhD. So from my family also, it was a no-no. But I think because it was a no, I was like, I will do it now. And so I had, you know, my whole family, like I had kids also and then also I did it. And I think a good part is now I want my kids to do PhD. So you can imagine, you know, how I feel about PhD. Though I didn't even knew what it is, but then after doing it and going through a life of a doctor who is a PhD doctor, I think it adds a lot of values to us as a person. And it's not just other things, but I want my kids also to be, you know, like a complete person. It makes you, so that's what I can say. I know it is too much of marketing of PhD, but please forgive me. Yeah. I'm actually going to do a bit of reverse marketing because I think one thing we have not touched upon as much in this discussion, you know, because it's biased sampling. All of us here are happy people, happy people in science, right? So we are all talking about how it was a great experience for us. But then the choice of panelists is... Yeah, we were trying to get a counter-view panelist to define one in time. So I want to say that, you know, I've also had friends who had a really miserable time. Doing a PhD. There's one really dear friend that I'm thinking about, and she's really outstandingly smart. But she just got into it because, you know, she was interested in the topic and so on. But I think what one does not anticipate and what did not work for her is that it's something which is really too much of a deep dive, you know? So if your mind is not happy with really pursuing one thing, kind of sort of all the time, you know, just down to its very, very core and so on. But your mind is more like a bright mind which sees connections between different things.  So I feel that though she's... And this is not just one friend. I have actually several people I know, all of us. Each one of us will know several such people who are very smart but hated the PhD experience. Okay, so it is not for everybody. It is something to go into with your eyes open. Another thing which is quite common in academia is bad advisors. Okay, so the chemistry with your advisor really matters a lot. I mean, all of us, you know, we're again, we're all saying all these positive things. But before committing to any advisor, finding out about the group, are the people happy? Whether it be like the best place in any country, right? It's very important to make sure that the advisor is sort of a caring person, sensitive to students. There are lots of people who don't get that.  So those people found it very hard to make progress. Why am I saying this? Because it's not really a bed of roses. Okay, it's not for everybody. It's a very specific type of mind that really likes and enjoys this kind of a journey which is so depth first, you know, so much of a deep dive. It's not like swimming in the whole space. It's like really diving down in one place. So I do also want to exercise this note of caution. Okay, so let's not also just get carried away. I had a question, but I should switch to the, I had a question as to who should not do a PhD on it? Whose path should not, or why should your PhD not be your path? That has to be answered. Yeah, Vihari, I will say some things in the end, just a few thoughts. Vihari, you want to say some closing thoughts? Yeah, thanks. I think Shweta did a great job of saying the natives. I think I also planned to say some natives. I think that's right that if you're not, I've seen some people who are very smart but cannot afford to do a PhD because they need money in the sense that they need to do a job to earn some money for sort of financial emergency sort of thing. But if you have the financial, some sort of stability to some extent and emotional stability, then I think maybe you should ask this question as to like your 20s are like probably your prime time like you're active, you're healthy and so on and so forth. So you have two parts. One is going to a company, taking up a job and writing obscure code and you don't even know where that code is going for into the companies. You have that option. Our second you have another option is work on yourself, which is PhD, right? So for me, the choice was clear. It has to like, I want to spend the best time of my life on myself rather than writing some obscure code for some obscure company, which I don't even know is going to exist, right? So think about it. And I think if you have the ability, financial and emotional, I believe PhD is the best way for both. And also if you have the passion, thank you. So I just want to end one last, you want to say? Yeah. One very big advantage is you get to put doctor in front of your name without working with patients, blood and bones. So yeah, I want to add one last thing again, Shweta's thing. And so if very, very rarely, very few of us actually have a family history and stuff like that of doing a PhD. I had a bit of an alarms going on in my head because Nidhi said she would like her children to do PhD. So if you have that kind of, if your father has done PhD, mother has done PhD, uncles and aunts and some people come from those kind of families. There is a natural pressure to do a PhD. So that should definitely not be a reason to do PhD. So yes, absolutely not. To some extent, that's one reason I did PhD, but my boys are older now, they are mid twenties and neither of them is even doing a masters. So not even they do not, they barely got the college degree and they're happy in their jobs. So yeah, whatever we feel, whatever your previous generation might feel about you, let the choices in your life be absolutely 100% yours. That's the only thing I would like to say. Thank you very much to the panel. We had a really nice and lively thing. I'm sorry, I thought this was a little more efficient to get many, many questions from you all to the panel. We didn't have people running around with the mics and all of that, but please catch them now if you want. Yeah. Okay, Professor Ajit Rajwade, who is my colleague here, will also be available out at the same admissions desk. If you have any, one of those nitty-gritty admissions questions, we will answer now. Thank you. Yeah. How about Ajit? We have a token of appreciation for the panel members. We will just show you a picture.  Sure thing. Mayank? Yeah. So, token of appreciation for Mayank. Thank you, Mayank. And then next one for Nidhi. Guess only one, we are getting a two for one deal with Shweta. Okay, you can actually me have. Just for the photo with Ajit. Thank you. Thank you. Okay, so I don't know if the MCs want to say any announcements or anything, Saru, or done. Yeah, we are done for the day.  What time tomorrow? One announcement is there. All right. One more announcement. So, hello, everyone.  So, after the session is concluded tomorrow at around 2 to 30 p.m., you'll have to submit the field form. Again, I'll tell you after the session is concluded, not before. Please fill it out and I think attach all of the.