Hello everybody, if it's Wednesday, it's Warhammer and that must mean it's time for another episode of Warhammer Weekly Joining me as always is my co-host Tyler. What's going on brother? How are you doing? Everybody good to be here fantastic everybody. Hope everybody's well. Yeah, man. It's it's a great day today We're gonna we've talked a lot about how great a OS 3.0 is and in fact it is great But there are some challenges and we're gonna talk about that tonight We're gonna talk about the problem areas of a OS 3.0. So It's gonna be a real spicy show get ready for that to get ready for the spice to flow But that's okay. It'll still be fun. I promise I feel like we can do this We've been incredibly positive. I think about 3.0 on all these shows Yeah, and like I said overall and as I'll mention again when we start the segment, it's great I can't play enough of it Truly the thing that I am most sad about is that I am not playing this game right now But yet here we are but that doesn't mean there's not always room to improve and that's what we're gonna talk through Okay, cool beans. So but first of course, we've got some news not much but a little what do we got? Yeah, so start with the rumour engine of course It is the saddle for the new Stormcast Dragon Riders end of discussion Yeah, because it looks seraphon inspired and they're the ones who gave him the draconess Done. I am all in my friend Let's do it discussion over That's what I saw some people propose chaos oath breakers You know that might be an early early hints of the potential 2022 cast dwarfs Because they think it's a little face. It's a little face. Yeah, yeah, uh-huh sure Sure, or it looks like a roughly salon head with with you know, sort of seraphon favored spiky bits because that's the kind of thing They would have if you mesh those two designs so And it's the human natural inclination to see faces and everything Yep No, let's do the dragon army or the dragons Making the way to storm cast get those Stormcast dragons in my hands. Let's go This is what I want And if they like the seraphon showed up in the story, you know when they published it up this week as well that we had talked about last week and the You know, obviously they you know, hey, we've got all this this brand new race of dragons and we're gonna hand them to the storm cast Okay, fantastic So if they were gonna do so they'd probably be like and also here's some fun saddles for you to ride And this is what seraphon saddle for storm cast would look like in my mind Yeah, definitely Cool, so yeah, hopefully that's it We had a little bit if it is chaos sorbs by the way. Yeah, fine That's also fine. Rob will be happy. Yes. We can we can still make fun of them I hope they eventually get their real plastic army like death or freestyle or something Whatever, you know, I think it's not being a meme and a joke and get their real army I do hope they eventually make a whole plastic range of that not real army. That would be nice indeed. Yeah All right, so we had a little article about some new starter boxes and paint sets down the way for new AOS You know similar to what they did for 40k 9th, of course, they're doing the same thing here They've got three different ones you know personally they're obviously not for for folks like you and me and So there you know, there's not a whole lot. It's you know smaller number models for each one scale different sizes The most intriguing was the the biggest one at the extremist sets because you get some of that fancy new terrain. Yeah Yeah My answer is okay I mean just go by Dominion. I Know it's such a good deal Like Dominion exists. Yeah, I don't know. It's still you right Yeah, absolutely Yeah, that's I love that new train though It's cool. It's super cool I certainly hope to like I'm gonna pick a box that up eventually when I've got some time just to add to the table Why not always good to have more terrain options? Yeah, but you know, I Wonder if you could have a macrush.  Well, we'll talk about that later on my friend Yeah All right, so we've got a Little piece we want to do here in recognition of someone who's been in pretty much all of our lives for a very long time As many of you may know The legend himself, Jervis Johnson is retiring I believe he has officially retired as of this month after 38 years at games workshop and We just want to take a little bit of time to recognize it. I think if anyone deserves it. It is Jervis Johnson Yeah, I mean he's created a tremendous amount of content in his career that is given I mean Countless thousands and thousands of hours of enjoyment to people.  He is Occasionally a controversial figure sure You know, like occasionally people he makes stuff people don't like or makes choices people don't appreciate That to me is just the nature of the beast, right?  He's he's launched editions. He was the writer of the original four pages for AOS right, I mean like And and he wanted to make it 12 pages, but they wouldn't let him they said it had to be for no So I remember hearing that well, yeah, so I mean he's you know, he is a Titan and certainly You know, I think that To have such a storied career for at one company just doing one thing. There really aren't many people in the world who Who even are a who can do or have done or would have the temerity or the the Endurance to do what he's done most game designers are like that if you look at you know, most game designers who Work companies or who launch editions of major games. They tend to move on after that edition Yeah, right There aren't a lot of people who really stick around for years and years and years and a single company and live Edition-to-edition new game through new game so on and so forth They go on to other companies or to do other things, but Jervis found what he loved and he stuck with it So good for him. I hope he enjoys his retirement and you know what? I hope now these are tired He's never gonna stop creating stuff. I hope he does a little a few indie things here or there Yeah, has fun with it. Is he put some stuff up on Wargame Volt Jervis like it'd be super fun. Just put put on a game. Why not? Yeah, they're doing a lot of recognition and the White Dwarf 466 that's coming out They have a little article in Warmer community. It was I think it was yesterday It came out and so yeah, definitely gonna pick that issue up Hopefully, you know, a lot of us will and I know Phil Kelly has got a piece in there You know, he was a great mentor to Phil and yeah He's certainly been in my life. I mean, I remember reading his White Dwarf battle reports I think like 1996 I'm down around there and I was like 16 and of course, he would always lose which was amazing But he would lose in the most incredible ways possible. You're like Andy Chambers and him You know playing the games back in the day and yeah, just Tremendous fan of a lot of it. It's remarkable looking at his Wikipedia page. Yeah, how much he has done. Yeah Advanced hero quest Deftus Mechanicus see what we was a play tester for the first rogue trader, you know the first edition of Warmer 40,000 and Obviously has been involved with more fantasy and it's just yeah, it's it's really a remarkable career So Good luck buddy. Thank you for so many so much that has enriched our lives We're certainly all deeply appreciative of it and I hope that Whatever you're doing now you have fun with it. So there you go. Yeah, definitely All right, so what else we got we have some events. Yeah, man Let's get that get that event calendar up Incredible amount of work that I decided to create for myself each week Okay, you got it pulled up there. It's up. Yep. All right sweet So yeah last weekend we had the Grand Clash in Canada. I think it was in Quebec I know the Season of War crew they went out for that and I think it's around 96 players It was a they're send off the 2.0 there in Canada. I saw Jordan, you know season of war He finished third with his I didn't think he might have been playing on the top table last game So that's really he got best order as well. That was really cool to see I think a general Yeah, the season of War crew did excellent at the event if anybody's got the information the results Dan and I haven't seen them we'd love to get our hands on the results from that event just see see how it shook out and This weekend we've got the first 3.0 tournament battle time barbaric happening in Sweden As well as Circle City clash so we mentioned that last week mighty boss Mike his team tournament is going on I saw Mike post recently that he had a couple of open spots So if anybody can get to Indianapolis, Indiana on short notice here, you'd love to see you and Then renegade open, which I guess maybe Joe Crier is involved in this weekend sure if it's in Minneapolis Mr. Crier is is definitely involved that is for sure Yeah, I Don't know much about War Under the Mountain, but that's happening in Australia Hopefully that'll be a good event. Maybe if coaches in the in the chat. He can tell us more about that and Then yeah, one new addition to this slide from last week the London Open So that's happening July 31st August 1st. Fortunately, that is overlapping with with Ben Kenan carnage So I saw a little tweet thrown on that like I guess it couldn't quite be avoided. They were trying to get a different date I don't know what happened, but anyway, that's going on the London Open. It looks like it's gonna be a big event I know they quite quite a few resources. They've been putting into, you know, making that a good grand tournament every year Yeah, a lot of good stuff coming up. I'll tell you right now. I'm watching Circle City Okay. Yeah, because our our good friends are good buddies up in the Detroit Warhammer Club Okay, have a team going the Detroit crew is rolling out in Mass to Circle City Yeah, all of them taking Sons of Bahamut Let it and they have all different lists So it's all different It's all different giant lists Some have Kragnos, some don't. You have four mega gargant list You got a traditional, the couple Megas and some packs of babies They are they represent a sizable portion of the tournament Oh my lord. I wonder what was going on. I shall Sean post a photo. I think today. Yeah Yeah, like six babies I don't know what the orientation was maybe two by threes and then I think a kraken and a mega or a somper Not that not the gate breaker. It's exciting. Yeah, I can't I what I want to see is a first second third That's just Sun Sun Sun's just Detroit brings it home. That's that's what I'm hoping for The real question are they gonna do that for Nash con singles? That's the real question. Who knows There's a there's a challenge for those guys top top tables Brilliant Jake Sean and company. Well, are you just discounting me? I see how it is Tyler I see how it is you haven't picked an army.  So it's fine. All right Let's talk August because I brought up the August slide a lot of stuff coming in August. Yeah Oh my god, the floodgates have opened. Yeah, that's where we really see it a lot of games coming back people It's clear Warhammer is back With August so that's I mean like it's it's too much to read. I'll leave it up here on the screen Right, there's stuff happening all over the world Obviously, it's still a lot of UK a lot of Australia and New Zealand events going on Which is just sounds fantastic the fact that on single weekends You've got multiple Australian events going on right like at the end of August on the 28th of 29th You got the two Wumba open at the same time as the TTD winner wipeout fantastic Love it, you know one in Queensland one in Victoria. So Just a lot of really great stuff throughout August. Obviously, we were just mentioning Nash con August 21st and 22nd very much looking forward to that I'm gonna it'll be my first tournament back since you know all of this. That's right Happened since February of last year. So we're gonna get we got as Tom on board Yeah, he'll be there. All right. Good. Cool. I Saw a warmer open Orlando. There was a little announcement by Mike Brandt The basically kind of he's head organizer as far as I know for warm events right now with with games workshop Mike said that I think it was Orlando. No, it was New Orleans was full I think Austin is full. Maybe Orlando. So Orlando is the one that still has openings. Yes, okay Which makes sense who wants to go to Florida? Apologies to all of you who live in Florida, but Here we are like seriously fire the choice between Orlando, New Orleans and Austin. That's really not a choice You're really working on those on those downboats for us. I think I think we're covered by the top Real quick, I just want to answer tidings attempted to link the clash results tidings Yeah, YouTube doesn't let people who aren't the administrator of the of the stream post links for safety reasons So, but if you want to just shoot those directly at Tyler or DM myself or him or post it down in the comments that that will let that happen there Then that's fine. We can grab it. So whatever works buddy Yeah, yeah, Joe everybody. I mean as always, you know, it was events. Or just get in touch with Dan or I One way or another, you know, scrubbing wells on Twitter or a was shorts Then I might have an underscore in there somewhere and yeah, just let us know about any events that are going We're going to matter to the calendar. They got to be two-day events of some kind or another Brandon S said is Nash con a good place to go to a first tournament. I've been wanting to go to my first But I'm a newer player. Yes a hundred percent So this run by a gentleman named David Griffin who is one of the nicest men and all of Warhammer I think Tyler and I and many and basically anybody who goes to that tournament would attest to it It's full of really really friendly people like I promise you even if you choose your first tournament You don't have to worry about losing or winning or whatever.  That's fine. I don't think you're I hope people don't set expectations to go in five I know what the first term they ever played in But the the middle tables and the lower tables at Nash con are just full of the most friendly Welcoming people. I've never had a bad game at Nash con other than when I was playing Tom Like literally any random person I rocked up to has always been amazing. It's friendly. It's welcoming It's a great venue for it's a new venue this year, but it's a great venue And like from the to the other people who I know are gonna be there It we would be we'd welcome you with open arms brother And honestly, if you're gonna be in the area somebody else asked the question like hey, I'm near one of these tournaments Can you just go and observe? Yeah? Yeah, I could just not buy say hi even if you don't end up signing up Which I would say sign up get in it's fun like I think people get overwhelmed or scared by tournaments They think it's like some really serious thing Sure, it's not okay Like sure the top five tables are probably like some pretty serious people playing pretty serious Warhammer Yeah, every other table is people having the best time Joking laughing enjoying it rolling dice just really having a great weekend. You go to hang out with people You don't like most be that's the real reason So at any rate, yeah, that's what I'll say to that. Okay awesome Okay, I think that's it for the news. Yeah, right on. All right, let's get to some pick. Oh the week Okay, so Tyler you you go first because you have just a slew as always Yeah, I'm getting by on a technicality with my limit of three here because the honest wargamer just counts as one So that's that that works. All right, cubic shenanigans podcast with Dan and Brendan they're back they're Starting their deep dive and a 3.0. It's gonna be a three-parter For some reason they're gonna have me on the last part talk some nonsense They just had their first one going over the core rolls I think a little bit on the GH quite a bit on the GHB and the fact So that just went up definitely check that out those guys always do a really good job You know kind of covering everything particularly through a competitive lens and Then the Dias cast so this is a new bet rep channel. I never have you heard of this place then this channel Have you seen any of their stuff the Dias cast? Yeah, they had a really great bet rep with trees and soul blinds So they were you know good list Very well played. It was really awesome to see somebody play it was actually I think his first time playing Sylvaneth Yeah But no, he was rocking it. Yeah, you had a larry old. I don't think he had the war song revenants yet But anyway, it was a excellent battle report. I highly recommend it in terms Yeah, if you want to see soul blood what soul blood can do what something to do in 3.0 It's one of the best that's out there right now and Yeah, really really cool guys awesome and then Rob and gang have been killing it this week as usual They're just knocking out a lot of amazing content this year like it's just weak after week of top-notch content So this week we had a show on a proposed aos 3.0 tournament scoring system That Rob has come up with and I don't know if we want to get into the details right now because it's a bit of a long Conversation, it's too long of a conversation But but I mean Rob gets into it eventually they may they meander around quite a bit as per usual But that's that's what you're signing up for with the honest wargamer So but but yes, it's it's it's interesting and I'll link the there's a there's a blog as well That hasn't laid out if you don't want to listen to the little show There's a blog the show is linked down there All the links Tyler's mentioning is there I'll link the blog after the show. So, yeah Yeah, it's definitely worth checking out I think it's a healthy discussion and you know as we've had a lot of that going on the community that we've got a And I figure out what the scoring system is gonna look like or variations of a you know Different scoring systems are gonna look like for 3.0 here and then yeah, finally just today He had a AOS 3 faction reaction on 7F as well That was with math Malo Matthew Davies so Matthew has done the best at least statistically, you know based on JP's data of anyone in the world Over the last year with 7F. He's actually stuck to it and got a lot of games in the TTS you know, he got some games in before we got into the COVID lockdown and Definitely really raising that 38% that we were at On his shoulders alone. I think he was out like a 72% win rates on on JP's data So he definitely knows what he's talking about for the most part Joke I think I think there are a couple of things that kind of set me off in the conversation in general It was amazing. I think he had a lot of X like he's really in on a larryl, which is cool to hear Yeah, I've heard a lot of people being in on her. Yeah, just because of like actually what she can Enable but she has to be used carefully. She's not like some of the other things we'll talk about today Where you can just be like a horror, you know, haha, it's just whatever I deal with this She's not that. Yeah, definitely. Yeah yeah, that's very little insane when they got into the discussion about the New awakened Wild Woods and like Matt was talking about how he's got like 27 woods in his collection And he brought 15 to Rob's Events, I guess last whenever was and you know, he got six games in like three out of the six games 15 trees apparently we're not enough because of the new woods that allow you to spam Yeah, just dropping little woods. Yeah, just pooping woods, which I'm sure yeah, some of the players We love that but that's not exactly. I think going in the right direction for An army for a faction and generally what we would want to see on the tabletop so yeah, but Anyway, it's a good discussion in general though. Sure All right rock on mine is very simple. I've got one pick my good buddy friend of the I don't want to say the show he's never been on this show, but he's been on this channel many times Travarian awesome miniature artist truly amazing painter And all-around wonderful dude put out a new video today about how he quits What he quit was his normal job and he is now doing YouTube full-time Very excited for him. He's really one of the best Miniature painting teachers that I know His video is very funny by the way he like there's there's some really good some really good humor in there He pokes at squid mar a little bit, but in a fun way and And I wish him all the best if you're not already subscribed to Travarian you absolutely should be he's a wonderful Wonderful miniature painting teacher and I'm excited to see what kind of content he's gonna be putting together And since I know he's got a little more free time I'm gonna try to bother him to start doing a show together again We can get some more myth-busting happening. So that's a really fun one to do, but we'll see Okay, so best of luck to him go check out his channel go give him a sub tell him Vince sent you over here He's so he's so wonderful. So there you go and learn how to paint everything you want All right, so with that That brings us to the end of the pick of the week I can see already by the by that That we are gonna have a Challenge this week with the likes I can see that because it's already free people who are like they read the show's title and they were like Nope Hit that thumbs down button. We haven't even talked about the topic yet. So if you're out there watching You know, give it give a like hit that button hit like we really appreciate it It helps counter out the negative Nancy's who don't even want to hear some reasonable discussion about fun, okay? Alright so With that let's talk hobby time. Did you get any games in there Tyler? Yeah, I got a we had a couple of new players that showed up last night So I got a little learning game in with one of them He knew something about 3.0 because he brought skaven and he had like two warp lightning cannons You know six storm fiends Three by 20 rats some Giselle's Lots of goodies Yeah, so turns out a leash hell with skaven is definitely a thing in 3.0 who knew Particularly warp lightning cannons. That was a lot of fun really him rolling a two up When I'm charging nothing better than dropping the one or the two on the die It feels so good drop that one.  So job job accomplished for the new guy Awesome Wonderful, uh, I'm taking a little break from our normal miniature wargaming hobby Because I've been painting a lot of like models recently. Obviously I You know finished up a bunch of stuff Shared some of that out this weekend, but I wanted to do something just for me So I'm painting this beautiful bust that was given to me by Uh by john Nenus by ninjohn when he came to visit me and this is one of my favorite busts ever in the history of the world He did not know that he was just like he picked something that he thought I would love It's one of my absolute favorites. And so we're doing a fun like dawn breaking kind of Color scheme there is I think shows pretty strongly even through this crappy camera Of the light and uh, I really love her. I think I don't I do not know who sculpted this because I'm bad at Remembering sculptor's names, but they did an absolute magnificent job and she's coming along nicely and it's really just a this for me This is just a nice relaxation project before I get into The inevitable deluge of beginning the rat cast so yeah I needed something that was more zen and calming before I got into you know, just unending Unending uh non-metallic metal for days and weeks and years So how many hours did you spend on that first one you put up? It's like 30 hours probably.  It's gonna be lengthy Right. I did and did you get the images that I sent you if not, we can do it next week On my friend's army. I did not. I'm sorry. I didn't okay. No worries. We'll get it So chad. We're gonna get you next week, buddy. All right. My friend chad.  He knows it But Yeah, yeah, yeah, it's this gorgeous lumeneth army And yeah, I just wanted to but we can do it next week. It's it's it's no big deal Well, my friend. I did not realize that this was the case. I'm sorry, but here let's do this Okay, ta-da. There they are All right, we're gonna cover over everything. There you go. Get small. Okay, so we'll just scroll through you said this is your buddy chad Yeah, chad graham Is this his first army? No, he had done. I don't know if you remember it's been years now He had done the daughters of kane army kind of in a similar color scheme, you know, your favorites, you know, purples teals Right And yeah, I think he did the daughters back in 18. I guess it would have been 18 19 But yeah, this is his first army since then nice that internet pretty much started working on it when the box set dropped Beautiful. Yeah, you'll love to see it. Uh, I mean, I don't love to see a lumeneth army ever But uh, no, that's great. Beautiful. Friendly lumeneth here. Look at all those stone guard. Yeah, they're it's gorgeous Uh, I got a game in this weekend as well. Uh, had a fun time actually took out slanesh Uh, didn't hate it Okay, what'd you have? Uh, I didn't use anything big.  Senessa was interesting. Uh, I learned that manfrid's real scary. Don't mess around with him.  I don't actually know how I'd kill him in my normal In like normal play sure have a way to burn him down or yeah I mean like you've got to take him out at range or or or like get lucky Yeah, and the funny part is he didn't end up dying in the game But I but that was because the opposing player and I forgot the rule too I was trying to keep in mind all You know my stuff and running new things like senessa and stuff And I forgot that manfrid has the armor of morgar or whatever the thing or whatever it's called I don't know something like that. Oh, yeah, the minus is the damage.  So blights for real and manfrid's real scary.  It was there was some fun there. How about that? We're turning it around. Yeah, that's right. You yourself another lesson the worst thing ever Right, we're gonna I I miss all of my toys that I really liked to play since I wanted to yeah I like playing multiple keepers of secrets, but that's just Sure, that's a that's a non starter now. They're so terrible on anything except a seven. So yeah Yeah, I mean that's basically been the case with the new book before 3.0 Right. I mean they were they were pretty bad in that book. Yeah But that's okay. There's still other fun toys. I like sigbold a lot. I mean he's So fun and gorgeous and hilarious to play All right, so tyler my friend Are you ready to talk about what's wrong? With let's do it a os 3.0. Yes, I'm ready. All right. So let's bring up our other presentation here I feel like we can do this in under two and a half hours. I think we're off to a really good start right now Yeah, we're doing great. We're doing great over here three minutes Okay so Welcome everybody in case you skipped to this point on the timestamps in the future. Hello So we are going to start with this preface Okay, which is aos is Aos 3.0 is a really great game. I cannot play it enough. So I've got six games in now. I think that's right. Yeah I think six games now and uh, I Really have had an amazing time with every armor I played and so people understand. I've been trying to play through all my armies Just to get a good sense of it. So I've gotten like two in with skaven one with giants one with slanesh one with slaves of darkness and one with Uh iron jaws Hmm. I was waiting for it. Where's the okay. We got it. There's my six. I got him in there It is six because I just if I thought about what I've actually played it would Yeah, it would click somebody asked me the other night. How many armies does vents have? And I got up to like 13 and I I just stopped I have 19 armies, but one of them is 40 k So I have 18 aos armies. Gotcha. That's not too bad. No, it's perfectly reasonable Now two of those have been, uh, retired permanently. Okay. Um, because two of those are 13 000 points of tomb kings and 6 000 points of bretonians So, uh, they're now over in the museum room on shelves where they belong But that's okay. Such is life.  I'm like, uh-huh 13 000 painted points of tomb kings.  Yes, correct I mean, I I like I don't like I really am curious if I have more ushabti than anyone in the world Because I have 27 painted ushabti and I want to know do I have the most of anyone in the world? Good lord. Could be Anyways, uh, what's the 40k army imperial knights? Imperial knights is the 40k army. There you go Uh, so anyways, this game is really great. I can't play it enough. I really love it now that being said There's stuff in here. That's a challenge. Yeah, right. I mean look The game is not perfect. Okay. That's we're both on record thinking it's the best edition Best edition so far totally agree with that legitimately is yeah, we'll defend that all the way down Yeah That being said Just like in work like in my professional career as well We have very successful releases and things like that we do because I oversee products You know, we do after every one of them we go over every release and we say what we do wrong What can we do better? What do we want to change for the next time? Always improving That's what this is.  He said he feels the pain. Absolutely. Uh, I suspect the the army going away. Yes Uh All right, so And then twin art said how much of my tomb kings would work a soul play probably quite a bit Probably quite a bit. Um Yeah, I think so Anyways, that's that's I you know, I'd have to rebase them all so that's never gonna happen. Okay Face hammer. I appreciate it. Do you counting someone as an elves army in today's video? That's very kind of you elves army That's what the show said sure sure it's kind of like the lost The black sheep or the family that no one wants to talk about right there. I'm like, oh Look at them over there.  All right So I'm gonna I'm gonna jump to the summary side here. We're just gonna we're gonna go ahead and frame this all up. Tyler. Cool all right So AOS three, I think it's an amazing game, but there are challenges Now we're going to dive into each of these in detail, but here are mine And it is the new player learning curve. I think it's high It's it is a shallow learning curve. In other words, it takes a long time to climb They are there are the enhancement section Boot it rewrite it. It's bad There are lots of choices. There's a high memory tax I think we need to have a whole conversation about hero monsters in general. Yeah The three plus base save and what that means in the new world Uh, the challenge of undercosted gods or godlike characters archion go trek and marathi being your three chief Offenders and terrain. These are kind of going to frame what we're going to talk about today Now there's a tbd section we've got as well Which is just like we don't know. It's a problem might be fine But it's interesting. You got you it's got my it's got your feelers up a little bit Right of we need to watch this could be perfectly. Okay Could be a challenge and that seismic shift the armies any any one armies ability to complete battle tactics Unleash hell or redeploy and then the lower objective count increasing the value of death star high power pieces so What do you think of my list? yeah, so obviously we did a little bit of pregame this week And yeah, generally aligned with all of this. There's a few asterisks, you know, we talked about how we're not sure about negash yet He's one we might want to talk about a little bit. Yeah, and keep an eye on Yeah, but yeah in general, I think it's a pretty good list You know, there's also some pieces we were discussing like knights of the empty throne baron guard or baron guard in general with all of the different You know, there are like many archons rolling around in terms of combos and synergy opportunities Right that you can get with them. Yeah I know you weren't too keen on the notion of nine storm friends. Yeah, but You know, there's like this smaller set of Powerful single units that we have access to right now. I'd say it's the smallest that we've ever had And you know, like nine storm fiends are absolutely In my opinion, one of the top examples You know, there's also the larger subject of just reinforcing in general and what that's meant Like we lost one of the things we lost like reinforcement as a whole is problematic I didn't put it in here because It it probably deserves a more nuanced discussion Then to say it's outright a problem, but it's certainly challenging for some armies in particular Like I think it's going to come up We're going to talk about reinforcement a lot in the context of the armies where it really matters Like there's some armies where it's just irrelevant like your reinforcement limit of four and what it is You're just like, it's fine. I'm swimming. I'm happy. I I probably don't even use all four of my choices Literally zero percent of my list building has changed Yeah, right Like that's certainly my slinish. I cannot picture the world where I would have where where that's probably most slinish armies Where you would ever need to use those points Right all of them And The But there are some armies that are really hit by this right The other one I didn't put in here is coherency Okay, yeah And that's because one we've beaten it to death on the show But also two because again, it's the same thing To me reinforcements and coherency are so army specific in how they affect like the meta rules of the game might be fine You know, I mean like they're not problematic in and of themselves Hmm, but there are some that it's more like how they get reflected through the prism of problem Is they become problems in certain armies, right? If your army relied really heavily on like six packs of 50 mil one wound infantry or something like that, right? Yeah Yeah, it's a it's a terrible challenge and it's awful like those coherency rules are garbage for you Right And so what we sort of and so those two things believe me they're not here I hear you people that that have issues with them We're gonna talk about them They're gonna show up in the context of the armies because we're gonna start doing some army Shows here in the weeks to come where we start deep diving into particular armies And we're gonna start talking about things like is reinforcements a problem for this army Did they get unnecessarily beaten up by that is coherency a problem beaten up by that? Right, right and so it's Like that's where it's going to to manifest itself Right. Yeah And for what it's worth Just to be clear I am a fan of the on the whole personally a fan of the reinforcement unit rule And I like that we have a as far as I can tell the smallest set Of sort of death star type single units You know 30 iron drakes 30 sentinels Uh nine storm fiends like it's a relatively small set that's out there And particularly the ones that can take advantage of unleash hell You know with the power projection is where it can really turn on of course baron guard, you know six baron guard a part of that But anyway, I I like that. I think that's probably Net healthy net positive for the game Yeah, agreed Uh sporadicus makes an interesting point. I've always had trouble setting the stage during pregame that being stuff like terrain battle plans Etc feels like there's no clear guide and game setup is scattered throughout the book. That's really interesting Um any ideas or resources for a quick start guide to get a game going quicker? So Um, yeah, we're tyler is working on something and I know rob is working on something to help with like terrain setup and getting you a good set of sort of visuals for that Right. Yep, and uh, I think that can go. I'll tell you how I I will give you the straight I answer for how I do choose the scenario I when they when they when they used to have the scenario cards for the old limited edition ghb's because I always have this I always get that so I had the cards I would fan them all out and hand them to my opponent and go pick one And whatever he flipped we played Now what I do is I go I get out of d12 and I roll it I'm just like you okay with this and the opponent if they're like, yeah, that's cool. I feel like that tonight I'm like great. That's what we'll play Yeah, so like that's that's it. Yeah, that's basically the official way to do it as well Yeah I just like I I roll a straight d12 and then I then as far as terrain goes I usually just set it up on the table and I look at my opponent and go are you okay with that Right, and if they are then fine. If not, hey change it how you want. Okay, cool. Let's roll for sites, you know done Yeah, definitely Uh, Matthew Abbott said our storm fiends battle line. How are we getting to nine six and three? We're getting to nine because they are battle line in Scryre when you have all scryre units and or a master clan or scryre general So there you go Okay, so this is what we're going to dive into tonight Let's get into it. All right So and as we begin this Uh Yeah, feel free to hit like if you like things that are on this list or don't Hit that like button All right problem areas. Here we go I really like this piece of art by the way. I always try to find these presentations I just really like this piece of art. I had no idea where this was from Uh, it was from the launch of aos 2 ironically. Um, okay. That's a cool piece of art Anyways, all right new players Uh And and these these slides are really just here to like To facilitate the discussion between Tyler and I and I certainly expect the chat to weigh in here heavily Uh New players have the largest challenge in the history of aos if you asked me to identify what I think the single biggest Problem area is in aos 3.0 It's for new players Yeah, okay The rest of us who are all experienced and have been playing for a while. Look some of this is annoying But we'll figure out a way to navigate Okay, like we'll navigate it. We will If we've been here this long, we're going to stick around and figure this out too. All right, sure Yeah Yeah, it's uh, there's so much more going on now than 2.0. Yeah So i'm gonna real quick here and I I might do an actual video on this Like a short quick video with some slides or something on this because I really think this is something that deserves its own breakout Okay, um, but here's my basic advice if you are teaching a new player Okay Then the goal is cut Cut cut cut so There are things you are just not going to use that you don't need Okay You don't need them to learn the game. So if I was teaching someone new We would not use battalions Don't eat them. They're not they're not they're not necessary. We're cutting everything not necessary Okay battalions straight out Grand strategies. Those are out too Battle tactics gone Okay, all of that. I'm jettisoning Mm-hmm. I will explain to them. Hey, there are these things. They're usually additional ways you score points We're not going to worry about that Right, what we're going to play is just the straight scenario and we're going to score the victory points for the objectives And that's it. Yep Okay All you got to worry about I would jettison all of that stuff Yeah, it makes sense. Okay, because it just it just doesn't need to be there. Yeah Um, there's so much more information That uh that they have to digest there's no reason to make them also digest those they're just going to choke on it Sure, right. Yeah Yeah, we were I was running into that last night. It was just too much going on for a new player Yeah, oh, yeah mysterious terrain. Thank you. Yeah, there's no way that's getting in that's definitely gone I didn't even mention it because I was just assuming it was gone. Nope. That's straight out, right? Like if it doesn't need to be there for the game to function, which what you need is two armies Right More scrolls for those units Mm-hmm and some kind of scenario to play in And then I would start with smaller games like don't go to a 2k game to begin with Yeah, I have rules for like 750 1500 in the in the core book now Just use those use those smaller points values They're fine. Yeah, definitely. Yeah, they're good right Yeah So that's a good idea. Yeah, and I really like that Keep it small. Keep it simple Yeah, I wish I would have done that last night that would have improved everyone's experience Yeah, we yes. Yeah, this is a this is a huge issue right now and Tokens, I mean we've talked about how critical tokens are going to be Folks definitely if you haven't been using tokens, you're going to have to get used to doing that I took your advice where I went out and got some erasable tokens. Yeah magnetic So this is a thing that I talk about. This is what I use on my table A lot of people order custom tokens no offense to people who make those. That's fine. I like that But like What I did is I went to amazon and you can order tiny little fridge magnets that are like an inch by an inch and a half Or some size near that That are dry erasable So a little tiny dry erase magnets and you can get like packs of hundreds of them For like eight or nine dollars And I just keep a couple very ultra like fine tip dry erase markers at the table When it's when it's finest hour I write finest hour and then I just slide it next to the person Then I have my finest hour written for the game and it just moves over to the other heroes as it goes And you can write multiple bonuses on there. So i'm like plus one two hit and then Like any buffs that go on there Scroll it down with my little dry erase marker slide it behind the unit easy peasy And I never know we never forget stuff. It's super easy Those kind of little memory aids Having a game aid cheat sheet. There's a lot of them out there floating around now the one that we had made I've seen some other ones out on the internet That's Just like the way to go have that little cheat sheet when I was When I've been taking people through 3.0 because normally a lot of people who come over from our club I've taken them through their first games right And all I do is I set down the cheat sheet in front of them and say we're going to walk through every phase in order Okay, beginning of the turn. This is what you gain Right you who's I'm going first. So I'll get one or sorry one CP you get two Yeah, we move into my hero phase Both of our generals are alive. I get one cp. You get one cp Yeah, it's my turn. I'm gonna do my heroic action. This is what I choose your turn What would you like to choose? Okay, I will choose my battle tactic Done, right? Okay. Here we go. Right, right Okay So, yeah, definitely. Yeah getting that getting those reps in kind of getting a checklist in your mind about, you know It's like a lot of me all the time people are forgetting about rally Sometimes I'll forget about rally, you know, because it's part of the start of the hero phase And yeah, I just kind of got to get a get a checklist and get that memorized and it helps out tremendously Yeah Yeah, so like just using that cheat sheet makes things so much easier. Yeah Um And uh, Sean said do you have a link to the cheat sheet? Yeah, I'll I'll find one and throw in the show notes Yeah, Sean, I think it's austin weird boys. I believe is the club name. Yes. Yes. Austin weird boys. That's it. Yep I have a great one Yeah So, yeah, check them out. Yeah Um, but yeah, like I think with new players, they have a real learning curve challenge with this So the answer is Don't push them Keep it simple keep it small Then you can eventually build in all those other things once they have it down Right Definitely. Yeah Um, so this one's solvable Right. Oh, yeah It's solvable. Yeah This one's solvable by us because look it's not a bad thing that all this that all this stuff is here Right, like I love that we're now active in both players turns and we've got lots of interesting choices to make It means the game has a much higher ceiling on what you can learn and experience over time, but we have to accept That that creates challenges for new players and then navigate that accordingly, right? And we have to be good gaming ambassadors when we get the people into the game It I mean it also raises the point about I I imagine some folks feel that this is moving away Too far away from the simplicity of the original edition and you know, there's a huge amount to be said About the elegance of that original system with how simple it was. I mean it had its own set of issues as well You know, you know, there's there's trade-offs with with just about anything and that's certainly the case here You know, it's neither all good for all bad. I I think It's I mean, that's maybe that's a bit of a cop out of an answer but like personally I think we're still within the space of It's not yet feeling like it's overwhelmingly complex that it's too much But we are feeling it more because we're at the start of a new edition We're having you having to get reps in get comfortable with it. It's quite different than 2.0. Right yada yada yada Yeah, how do you feel like in terms of the simplicity complexity spectrum, you know thinking about that original edition Compared to where we are right now. We're out. Let me save it because we're going to talk about it in a minute Okay, all right sounds good. I want to I am going to answer your question on a slide that's coming up in just a moment awesome, sounds good All right, anything else we want to say on the new player conundrum? Yeah, yeah, okay. I think we're good. Yeah be a good ambassador Keep it simple. Keep it all cut stuff out. You don't need it to play the game By the way, here's another just fun thing. I'll share You don't need that crap for your own home games either. Even if you're not a new player just point that out Uh, you can just decide not to use some of that stuff and it's super fine Hmm, like if you don't like that stuff Don't use it Who cares?  Okay enhancements That's misspelled Enhancements now it actually says that thing. How did how did you not catch that spelling? That is yeah, that's I mean that should be on you, but that's probably on me. It's on me. It's completely on me Enhancements It is a mess this whole section Is a mess I don't like it Bullet to bone pulling your soapbox up here. Absolutely. Hold on. Let's let's do it Okay This section is terrible straight out There are 28 Good sections in this book or 28 sections in this book. There are 27 good ones Okay This is the one bad one Because when I look at this When I first read this, I didn't even know what any of this meant The first time I I had to read this like four times to figure out what the heck all this was talking about What does this all mean the way they introduce this is just insane Okay, oh my god Stop filling me my upload failed. I know I don't care Um, I definitely felt work incomplete Yeah, exactly like some good ideas, but incomplete. What does this mean? Do unique characters get spell lures? How about universal lures? Can these be duplicated? How do I assign spell lures? What about my book lore? Is that mean I get to choose a spell lore and I get my book lore? If by assigning my book lore when my book tells me I get one Is that the spell lore assignments if I have prayers? Is that the prayer lore assignment? I guess I just have to put up with this upload failing Like uh, is that what's going on? What in the heck is going on here? Why is all of this like this? Right, what about mount traits and these other unique enhancements that they decided to mention up here In the top and then not give us a subsection on leading to nonsense like The eight metal crutches Okay, now look some of this was answered in the FAQ But like but it shouldn't have to have been Because what was answered in the FAQ was the most basic of how does this work? right Right like this section in they they they got pulled in by the romanticism of a mono system Okay, they looked at all the stuff they're handing out to armies And said hey command traits artifacts You know all this different stuff. We're giving armies. Don't these all kind of feel like they could be one thing Shouldn't we just make a super term for these? Right, and they got lured in By the mega system This happens I see this all time in game design where you watch it addition changes. It's not an uncommon thing I've seen happen in games lots of games will do this over changes, right? Okay, they'll try like this is a very common thing in the history of game design people over an addition will introduce a bunch of stuff Realize there are similarities between them right And then try to create a super system to govern all of them Right, right and the problem is whenever you do that It just creates challenges Yeah It's it's very it's a bit of a mess I've probably had more questions locally about enhancements than anything Yeah, sure over the last couple over the last couple of weeks. Give me two seconds here people. I'm gonna fix something I'm sorry. This is driving me crazy. Keep talking Tyler Yeah, like one that was in the By the way, if anybody has any frequently asked questions you want to send in, you know, definitely get those in We still got a little bit of time here. So I think it's a was fact At gwplc.com think I've got thank you to everybody. So I've been reaching out to different folks I think we've got like 35 questions good questions that have been sent them over the last week here so but now like one on the list was invocations If you attempt to summon an invocation Does that count toward your one prayer limit? Right? Maybe it's it might be in there. I just might have missed it I don't know if anybody knows the answer to that if you can point me to where it counts They say you have to reference two different sections sections But yes, because it says is it count as a prayer or like it does count as a prayer Hence it is your one prayer because you use a prayer to summon an invocation like an invocation is summoned by chanting a prayer hence Yes, so like you have to kind of you have to kind of do a little mental math there to put it together But yes, it does Okay. Yeah, because I know in 2.0 like running daughters of cane the heart of fury Was an it wasn't is an invocation But it did not count toward your prayer limits in 2.0. And so I just wasn't clear on whether they changed that. Okay, so But yeah, I mean, I don't know what else to say about this I mean, what are your thoughts on like I'm on board with you about like it's a it's a problem. It's incomplete I mean, I don't want to you like pound this to death, but I feel like what are your thoughts on solutions for this rewrite this Yeah, we've got some obvious things like You know, you've got a number of questions here that need to be answered I think some of these questions have more or less already been answered No uniques are not going to be able to take flaming weapon. They're not going to be able to take universal spell lore Presumably that seems to be the case my honest answer is it sucks that this is in the core book And that this is going to be part of the core book for three years Okay, like some part of this it has shipped Okay, yeah Now what is my answer that I think is the right one rewrite this Rewrite this completely and put it in the FAQ section as a download Like don't try to just minimally FAQ This and have like all these different references where I'm going into the core rules and then referencing back Eliminate the third sentence add this sentence to the end of paragraph two 27.3.5. Stop that Understand when when you can know like at some point you've got to amputate Hmm, okay And and this is time Like yeah, we're already getting that section completely We do yeah, like I said, we just got that with mount traits in in the fact which has you know, it's not exactly crystal clear From that fact on on what we're doing So no, that's a good point. It just I mean, but I don't See this is necessary. Like it's a problem because the work's incomplete. It has holes But from a first principle standpoint Is it like no fundamentally flawed? No, I don't know you're asking me is it conceptually bad? Is this a bad idea exactly conceptual like I don't really see that okay I didn't think that's what you're saying, but no, this is a perfectly fine idea. This can just can completely work It's just we're gonna need more Right, right like you didn't answer all of the questions. You didn't even come close Hmm, right And Yeah, and and ben like war scroll builder doesn't set the rules like war scroll builder does what Like what tony p interprets things to be, you know So like if I'm not saying that that's wrong that the FAQ won't rule that way And even if it does I don't care it doesn't solve this section being not mentioning it Right. Yeah, the fact that we had so many holes in this section Is the problem Right So you can FAQ it till the cows come home and I can have a seven page FAQ on two pages of enhancements That's no good right Okay, yeah, absolutely Uh, so yes, there you go like I shouldn't have needed an FAQ to understand that I can't duplicate artifacts Sure, right Yeah, definitely that should have been baseline In here there's a section. It's right there. It's right there. See it's 27 33 artifacts of power Yeah, right Just catching up on the comments a little bit. Yeah, coach. Let me like we talked about it It almost appears positive that no name characters are not going to be able to take universal spell or universal prayer scripture And then there were some other ones here. Let's see Simple with regard to kill team. Yeah, man I We're probably not the guys to ask about 40k Oh, where was there a kill team question? Oh, I'm excited. Oh about yeah, if we had any opinions on new kill team Uh, I love I mean like I'm glad they're making it more like work. Right. There you go. There's my opinion. Okay Yeah, I hadn't checked it out yet, and I love that we managed to make move in inches more complicated That's funny. It's hilarious to me. I moved three circles from now on. That's that's how I will define all of my life I moved three circles Uh, Donnie, can you have two command traits? Nope That's definitely clear. That's one thing they they made very clear. We're still limited to one command trait as always Yeah, that does say you can never pick more than one command trait for your army and command traits can only be given To a general that is a hero Yeah, yeah Yeah So, yeah at any rate the The This section is just like I'm sorry. Again 27 great sections in this book I really do think they did a great job with the core rules. It's fantastic This section Not good. I don't know how to say it All right, I I shouldn't be able to punch this many holes in it Sure. And as you said all the questions you get are enhancements. Do you have any questions in the comments? I've gotten about enhancements Sure, right. Yeah And just people like people hitting me on twitter and my dms or whatever and I get it by the way That's not in any way a negative judgment on those people asking those questions not at all. It's Reflective of the confusion that's out there. Correct genuine confusion. Yeah, yes Yes, exactly, right like when you have that much confusion around something You missed right I don't know what to tell you right Coach we talked about this you're gonna have to add a sarcasm tag or something man like I don't I don't know what you want from me. You you and I know each other by now like They don't get our australian sarcasm. I love it. I just assume everything The australian are saying is generally to be taken not too seriously That's that's why I love all the australians because they're like they're serious, but they're never too serious It's great. Sure. It's a wonderful country All right, uh Yeah, so that's enhancements. I think I think we've beat this one to To death so um Yeah, rewrite this section put it up as a pdf in the faqs. Just do it That's the answer. Yep Okay, hey doom. Good to see you buddy. Yeah dooms in there. Welcome back brother Uh, I don't know did he I don't know if he already ran his half marathon or if he is running coming up I don't remember what yeah, he's it's getting close or he's been doing his training raising some awesome money for charity, uh, doom is a hero and he's looking just Spelt I mean he was always an attractive man. Let's get me. Let's make no bones about this, but my goodness Whoo, you know going up and that's a sexy robot ranking. Absolutely. Absolutely. This is what's happening. All right next item paradox of choice Yep, boy is there a lot Yeah, uh, I mean I'll I'll let you start on this one. Okay. Well, yeah play Sylvaneth or Luminoth at your peril At a tournament I'll I'll start with that or any other army Like that like I don't think that I can play those armies at a tournament with my capacity for analysis paralysis In 3.0 right now. Sure. It's yeah, I got two test games in with the trees And it was the most intense and you've seen me play trees over the years at tournaments And uh, yeah, it was the the they're amazing fun to play, but it just so Uh much combinatorial explosion of possibilities and choices and yada yada yada yada is like galaxy brain full full on so yeah, it's This is going to be a challenge for players like me And and certainly new players The the paradox of choice Most game even with iron jaws. I've been running into this You know where it's it's still it's like, okay You know, like you're you're thinking about You're trying to think steps ahead you think about when you're going to do find a stour You're thinking about trying to set up for redeploy Yeah, and or try to set up redeploy a turn ahead even Uh, you know just yeah, there's so much of that that's going on now with with regard to the paradox of choice Yeah Yeah, what's important here is I think two things to say about the paradox of choice because you know chase in the comments That paradox choice is easy just learn the game silly start with tiny games Silly add rules and then add some models of some new rules etc. Keep the space into 1500 or 2000 I think that's fine. That doesn't eliminate the paradox of choice Yes, because it might for you Which is good if you're that type of person But the paradox of choice is it is a thing that exists outside of the game Yeah, right. Um, I my office chair broke I'll tell a quick story my office chair broke. I needed a new chair Okay Yep, it was broken. I was still sitting in it and it was literally wrenching my back every day. My back was hurting Okay, just for sitting in this chair. It was it was making my life miserable It took me like three weeks to order a new office chair Oh my god, yeah Because I would go and look at chairs online and read reviews and get caught up and be like, well that one's maybe No, should I spend a little more money? I don't want to spend that much money I guess this one's gonna be maybe I can get the same quality for a little bit lower price I'll let me read more reviews. Okay. What does this person say about it? Let me go read this other review over there Okay, these people have a okay. Well, how long do they sit in it? How long is it good for? Okay, just want to have a warranty on it, you know, like and and it took me three weeks to make that decision That's the paradox of choice You Netflix yourself over a chair.  This isn't a knowledge problem. Right. Right. Okay Um The issue was there was just so much out there that the when the opportunity cost becomes so high For any choice you make it can become Parallels paralyzing right that's what this represents. Yeah And now that command abilities are limited to one per phase Right Just like your spells like everything else and oftentimes some of these things are even competing for similar resources Right. Yeah The opportunity cost of making a decision gets higher Yeah, right Somebody shoots at a unit You do like this this happened over the weekend in one of my in my game Somebody's gonna somebody like the enemy shot at a unit. They had five shooting units in there on the enemy side Okay You're playing a team's game for this game And the first unit shot at this one unit And the player was like do I want to all out defense? Okay, because they realized if they did it now Is he going to use his four units to also shoot at this unit? Hmm Right other four Or by him deciding to do that will he then because that's because he kind of didn't mind them shooting at this particular unit They were kind of out there for that purpose Sure Right, but if he then makes the choice Does that then incentivize the player to pick something else to shoot something? He didn't want him to shoot at whereas if he doesn't use all out defense Then maybe they'll just keep shooting this thing and maybe I can weather it Yeah, there's so much more of a mini game mini games happening now right Yeah Right And so that's just a little microcosm Of these decisions now if you're the type of person who doesn't think too deeply about that or just generally has like A lot of confidence in making your decisions or super duper knows your army well Or is not playing a very complicated army watching the lrl player play like the lrl player My group is a very sort of laid-back guy right he's He doesn't take the game super seriously watching him play and just be like, uh Sure, I'll use a penny on this one. This one gets all out defense We call it using a penny when you use the most one to save by the way Either quartz yeah Yeah, when he uses an aether quartz we call that using a penny because we always track it with pennies next to him so yeah, um So it's like, you know, you can get caught up in this really easy right Which heroic action do I use which monster uses which monstrous action? Well, I've got one prayer. Which prayer do I use out of these that I know I've got one or two spells and I know You know with some of these characters you might know More than that could maybe considerably more than that You know like with senessa who knows like all the lords completely I'm like this one character you can cast one spell a turn and she knows like 18 spells. I'm like, oh, this is helpful right, you know So like it the point is you can just get into this position very easily Where you're kind of like When you get yourself wrapped around the axle Yeah, because there's so much choice and and look it's it's this is simply the other side the other edge Of the sword that is the game is more interactive Mm-hmm, right because you've got a lot more Stuff to do in each player's turn, which is true like man does this game feel more interactive and I love it Like I am you are dialed in on your opponent's turn you're making decisions Stuff is happening.  You're like, okay more bathroom breaks. I'm gaining. Yeah, I'm gaining a command point. I'm using a heroic action I'm just spelling their endless spell so they can't resummon it right. I'm making I'm making choices here, man I always know what you're doing. It feels great Right, I think I think you said this came up in your game over the weekend And I've heard so a friend of mine reached out to me like 48 hours ago To Scott and I in one of our chat threads with this comment and then like over the last two days I've seen multiple people mention it that You often will want to Dispel One of your key endless spells in your opponent's hero phase. Yes, so that it gives you the chance To actually cast it in your hero phase. Yes Yeah, and that's just one of those things that if you're you know, not playing the game Like that's so counterintuitive to how we've experienced the game for so long now But yeah, that was brilliant when I first heard that it makes so much sense. Yeah Uh, yeah, I mean, there's just lots of little choices to be made. Here's a funny thing. I've run priests a couple times I don't think I've ever yet remembered that they had bless or snipe Oh, sure They've got curse and curse. They've got curse. I remembered that that is definitely remembered curse Yeah, yes So it's just funny to me because I really I don't think bless is bad Bless on 60 clan rats is oh, yeah Six up word, right six up word. Yeah. No, that's tasty. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, uh, so at any rate Um, you know, I think this is just one of those things that we've got it This is sort of one of those pills. We've got to swallow Uh, again, you can you can somewhat declutter some of this Right if you if you don't play with some of the elements like we mentioned earlier Right. Um, one of the things people labored over the most was battle tactics Oh, yeah, definitely.  You've got to have cards or the ghb little pop outs Yeah, which are cool. I like those little pop outs. They're they're pretty awesome Definitely, I mean, you know be looking at those in your play in your opponent's turn while they're doing the movement They're doing the thing. Yeah, look at those try to figure out in advance what you're doing. Yeah But yeah, no, there's You know, I mean as we're talking about a little bit I can I'm starting to get that feeling of you know, maybe in some cases it is getting a little bit too much again, at least I mean like My orientation with this game are better or worse. I'm one of those players like I'm trying to make optimal decisions I didn't give in time right and try to you know, think ahead and like everything I'm trying to optimize Um optionality and that quickly gets overwhelming It it did and 1.0 and 2.0 and and now it's on a rocket ship In 3.0 with everything that we've got going on in terms of trying to Yeah, sort of control the variables and set things up in advance, but Yeah, I don't know what your thoughts any thoughts on potential solutions Well, I mean do you feel like maybe we are getting Again into or maybe we can wait on that if you've got another slide, we're going to start getting that in terms Yeah, I think we'll get into it because there's there's there's going to be well. We'll we'll we'll submit at some point Um, I mean my solution My I do have a very simple solution for this one Okay Uh Which is actually two options One actually play smaller games for your for your personal games like seriously just play smaller games play 15 or point games or 1000 point games Right Um, it just it it just makes things easier Hmm. You have less units. You have less abilities. You have less nonsense Right Right. It's just true. Um, yeah The the other Option is make sure you play the army that's going to fit well with your psychographic capability to handle this analysis analysis Yeah, 100 that's a huge one.  Like there's nothing you need to remember about them. They're so easy Like you can you can they're they're literally like you can write all their rules you need to remember on the back of benapton Right So you're not thinking about your army at all. You're thinking only about this stuff Yeah, right. It's easy It's wonderful. Yeah, the the classic know thyself. That's that's a really good point. Yeah, like a good friend of mine, uh, brice brice was running zinch for a year or two years and just killing himself Well, uh, because you know, it's a pretty complex army. There's a lot going on in zinch Unless you're just like throwing archeon into somebody or whatever with kairos And so, yeah, no, he's completely gone the opposite end He switched over to sons of behemoth and it's having the time of his life playing a sigma or 3.0 Yep, it's great. Yeah, sons of behemoth iron jaws Yes, this is this is the road to happiness. I'm just telling you right now It's not just destruction armies. There are a couple others. I can play like this as well Right. I don't want to make it seem like that. Um, I avingori so blight is another one like that rules are very straightforward You can make a great army still have a big unit Like you can sell a big unit of zombies in there if you want it or something, you know, but again simple rules Right, like there there are just, you know, in other words Find the version of your army or it like not every army has this version But many of them do like there's no version of lumenet that fits this Sorry But but a lot of armies have some version of the army that you can that you can run that reduces complexity Yeah, right. I really think new storm cast are gonna fit into this by the way Hmm. Yeah, because I really really love the way they wrote new storm cast scrolls. If you look at like the stuff in dominion I did too, dude. Yeah, it's so simple. So straightforward. It's just like the only one in the entire Box with complication is yandrosta yandrosta. Yeah, and she's everybody else is just like this is what they do Do it. This is what they do. Do it. This is what they do. Do it. Remember nothing All right, yeah So, yeah, there's there's there's versions of this stuff around I've always thought storm cast should have been way simplified like sacrosanct was Insanely overtly complicated way too complicated to be a starter army sure Yeah You know, it always should have been Uh, something like what we've seen out of the thunder strike stuff Yeah, yeah, you know playing in storm cast in 2019 pretty much for that full year They were a nice Kind of comparing them to iron jaws and sylvanas.  I think you know, you can definitely lean in to Trying to make optimal decisions at any given time And or you can just play very casually with them. So yeah, I think they're great for that. Yeah, 100% all right Memory tax, this is a different thing Okay, yeah The paradox of choice is when you are aware Of all options before you And you are not sure which one to choose for fear of opportunity cost Yes, okay Memory tax is needing to remember all of that crap. Yes. Remember hammer Okay Most common phrase you're gonna hear is wait, I forgot this. Yeah Um, I was really trying to find a good meme for this one. I ended up picking the the This this show that's a bad show, but it's a funny meme. Sure. Yeah It was I couldn't find a good Like meme image of the Daenerys forgot about the iron fleet. Oh, right because that's what I wanted to you So I'm gonna tell you I'm gonna say the meme. All right, right um There's so much to remember and again a lot of what we uh What we talked about before with the paradox of choice is going to be true here as well More complicated armies will suffer more from this because there's more you have to remember Right Thankfully this one does have a solution That's pretty straightforward like making the right choice. It's hard to like navigate those waters Yeah, the memory tax this has a solution. It's called the game age sheet like we've talked about already and things like aos reminders Definitely, right. Yep, and you just Read down your list. Yeah, there is nothing wrong with using a reminder sheet. I want to normalize reminder sheets, it's like we were all Uh traumatized in school That you're not allowed to have a book open when you take a test or something stupid, right? Yeah, like no, you can just make a reminder sheet. It's cool when I go to tournaments I make a reminder sheet for my army of stuff. I need to remember about it in every phase I was doing this before aos reminders existed Yeah, definitely right Yeah, I mean, yeah, that's that's majority players that I know. Yeah tournaments. That's that's what they do Yeah, I just write like hero phase. Here's the things you remember, right? It's just the basics Do this thing do this thing like with sonesh. It's like don't forget to prick yourself on the feign You know, so on and so forth, right?  Yeah and get those reps in yeah Just learn your army through and through What yeah one of the the values of playing an army for you know long stretches just one army long stretches of time That's what I tend to do like excited, you know, hopefully this this new iron jaws battle tome Is going to be a good one Just going to run pure iron jaws for at least a year. Yes Because I want to experience a pure melee army and a was 3.0 and see how that goes And just yeah learn try to learn through and through what it's like to go whole hog on melee And you know, see if they can compete they can they can hang out with some big dogs, right? Yep Yeah, and and the key with reminder sheets is like Again, it's going to vary depending on the army whether you need it, you know I mean like I'll say this when I ran my iron jaws. I didn't have a reminder sheet with me because I didn't need it Right, right like there just wasn't that much going on You know, it's it was like I could easily hold that in my head You know, and it was very straightforward and I'll say when I play when I've played A lot of armies like I will say it varies like army to army how much tax I feel this right, yeah and playing the the There the I noticed a difference in the army. I also noticed a difference in my comfort with the army So like Skaven actually you have quite a lot of stuff going on But I've played Skaven so much It's so internalized at this point that I don't tend to run into the memory tax very much, right? Because it's just embedded in my mind Yeah, right But that's not true for every army like when I ran the slaves army and you know, I've got all these different like Spells and abilities I can trigger and stuff like that going on Uh, that was very different Okay, sorry Yukon melee Is that melee melee melee there you go Uh, what what uh, melee he's no now we're now we're pronouncing it melee That's what that's what you get Huey now. It's melee Oh goodness Uh, that's that's two over these eight weeks. The first one was uh, plastic crake because nobody told me That uh, c r a i c is apparently a a term that's pronounced crack In australia or wherever gotcha. We're either gonna go melee melee melee You can choose. I don't care. It's all fine or rope it those are your choices There you go Uh, my only my reference is super smash brothers melee where the game shouts melee At you at the beginning of it. So that's that's the game wouldn't be wrong. They wouldn't lie to me Yeah Yeah, I mean like I said the this one again is answerable, which is you know Use the aos reminders make yourself a little reminder sheet something like that. It's it's the answer don't Don't try to to feel like you've got to keep it on your head for some kind of weird bravado You're just gonna forget stuff. I'd like what are you doing? Yeah, totally plus the best part is you just need to make the sheet once Like just once you make it one time and you're done forever. You can just hold that with your army Right, right. It's easy So it's not like a huge investment of time Uh, all right, very good Hero monsters. Oh boy. Oh boy. Oh boy Yeah, now we're gonna keep the gods Out of this for a moment Sure. Okay, because they get their own special category Hero monsters, especially those with a three plus save and high bravery Become very hard to shift and in fact these next two are going to just be all they're almost interlinked, right? Because you've got hero monsters here And then the next section. I'm just going to flip to it real quick is the three plus save Okay The abundance of plus one to save means many units are now just basically rent proof If you like two plus tough, this is a great addition Look at that beautiful human being. Oh, he's so friendly-looking. He really is. Oh, it's the best smile ever So I mean, I love I love negaduct too though just as much but Sure, let's so I want to these two are kind of linked. They're two separate items But I think they're inexorably linked, right? Yep Because I here is my supposition for you, Tyler. Okay So Here is my thesis statement By shifting all re-rolls to save in the game in a large part not all but, you know, vast majority Or re-roll ones or whatever from that to plus one to save Plus introducing new and additional ways to get plus one to save Yeah Even though plus one to save is capped at only plus one i.e You can only get one better than what is printed on your sheet hence the three plus save being two plus stuff. That's the joke Right We're just gonna sit here with Doug. He's co-hosting with us now This is gonna be really funny to him if he watches this later because I don't think he's watching right now And So Rend Unless exorbitant is now basically worthless Because it will do nothing except erode phantom bonuses they have Okay, so that's your that's your broad thesis statement. My thesis statement is In many armies You can gain so many plus ones to save so easily That Rend especially rend one and rend two is worthless Okay Because all it's doing is chipping away their extra ghost numbers. Sure, right? Yeah, right? You haven't actually moved them Yeah, the number of times in the games. I've played where people have been like i'm red i'm rend one and i'm like I don't care. I'm still one better than my save. I have plus two. Yeah Like getting plus two to save is nothing. It's nothing It's incredibly easy. Yeah to play rend one might as well just save rend zero now You ready for my response? I'm ready Okay, so I agree with you and I disagree with you. Okay so I agree that the nature Of how you are using rend has changed and the baseline value Of rend has changed meaning you are now scrambling to find minus two But really you're looking for minus three or you're just simply looking for mortal wounds particularly ranged mortal wounds. Yeah okay the Utility the purpose of rend has changed in the sense of Flamers are now no longer going to burn down Name your favorite toy Manfrids anything with a three plus save. They're not burning that down. No Flamers are going to be used for chaff you know things with Worse a four plus base save ideally a five plus or six plus I was going through the 25 or so factions that we've got and we still have Half a little less than half of the factions in the game that generally don't have access to great armor Like daughters of kane are widely considered at top tier army That yeah, they've got hagnar and they've got weight. You know, they got marathi, but generally speaking They don't have great armor And there's there's quite a few of those factions soul black grave lords They, you know, they've got the blood knights, but they also got a lot of zombies and skellies and blah blah blah So yeah So that that would be the starting point that I I I think that it's kind of a An and both an agreeing and a disagreeing and how you've raised your thesis. Okay, fair enough. Yeah And and my answer is at the same time Right this three plus safe problem now. Let's return to our previous slide It's magnified in its challenge when you're dealing with hero monsters significant hero monsters We mentioned Manfred already being one, but there's lots of people who fall into this list, right? If you're a hero monster with a high bravery On a three plus base save like not cheating your way into it because you like you already have plus one Renegade you don't s to say the number your save characteristic is three base, right? Especially if you also happen to have an aftersave Sure, okay, which by the way exists in multitudes. Yeah cross lords Sure, and Sure quite a yeah, I mean some all death You're right, right all death because they all have an aftersave built into them Even if it's only six up it's an aftersave, right? Yeah, sure. Yeah, sure Um the anointed on phoenix Right, you know, whatever. Yeah, the stuff's around, right? um You're just going to be like It is going to take an amount of combined firepower that not many things in this game can produce to bring you down Right either an overwhelming amount of mortal wounds Or uh, or like your nine storm friends we mentioned earlier, right? Yes, as hawo said anyone who could equip amulet of destiny. Yes. Thank you hawo for the obvious much appreciated Absolutely Um, you know, like you're just if you're on a three up as a hero monster. You're going to two up like that Hmm Yep Because you have access to all defense you have access to best day ever you're a likely target for mystic shield You're and and any other thing in your army, you know, if you're in slaves of darkness, you have eight different versions of getting Right, it's not an exaggeration by the way. That's a real number Yeah And potentially a way to get a ward on top of that like a even a five plus ward. Yeah Yep, and then if you're also high bravery, it's like, oh, a couple wounds got through all heroic recovery all heroic recovery. I'm back. Yeah yeah Right. Yeah, I've definitely noticed that like, yeah You chip damage, you know range chip damage is not going to get the job done It's not, you know, like Trying out three bows in one of the kernoth games Just for you know for the for the heck of it, which incidentally, you know That was one thing that matthew did talk about that he was seeing some value in six bows But yeah, like three bows are not going to get the job done In terms of any meaningful damage to a hero monster that can do d3 heal or emerald life swarm or or whatever is going on yeah, so Now that yeah, it's definitely matched my experience so far like with the the cabbages, you know I told you I've been running a lot of double cabbage And one of course got the the five upward emerald destiny and the other is the you know the full-on beat stick Yep and so Yeah, and it's like the beat stick might go down because he gets overwhelmed Exactly the defensive guy is just like he's he's he's living and laughing Right, right. Yeah, having a great day There have been yeah a number of games that have turned on my opponent's inability to bring them down in sufficient time Or in sequence, you know, like there's certain Periods in a game where you've got to do something or the game's gonna tilt against you And that's happened a lot. Yeah with those double cabbages where they just can't quite do it Now scaven on the other hand with like warplining cannons and yada yada yada They could care less because they're just burning me off the board Look forward to the scaven show in a few weeks everybody We're going to talk about why scaven have to deal with none of these problems. They're great. Yeah, they're great They're like Foundationally one of the best set up armies for 3.0 We we've talked a lot over the years about the crap in the front part in the back And I feel like that's writ large 3.0 with scaven this addition Sure Like that's what it's all about all of these scenarios with three objectives in the middle of the board And round three one of them's potentially going away and scaven's just having a good old time With a crap in the front that's scoring and and burning you off the table They're the mullet of armies right now. Yeah, they're ready to rock. We're back to like the good times. Yeah. Yeah It's it's it's a great day to be a rat. So right Anyway, like so like how much of this is a problem with regard, you know Like writ large a problem with regard to these three plus base save hero monsters in particular But of course, we can also expand it out to three plus Varen guards, you know, there's some other units we could probably figure out Yeah, that could get up to that two plus save storm cast are gonna have some that and know what nylators do I mean, I think like the nylators the basic predictors run a three up your your basic front line, dude Yeah, totally like uh, so you could get 15 vindictors Like that sounds like pretty pretty damn good units Uh, well, especially if like yin dross is around we're storing one back to the unit every turn Right. Yes.  Oh, uh, autumn lotus. I wouldn't go so far there He said molder is still the big sad. Don't worry, buddy That's that that no I am I am I am high on molder right now Uh, they've made some changes recently with molder that that are Stupid good You can do work. It's all I'll say Well, it's cave and show it's cave and show. All right, right Yeah, so one of the I mean this is one of the first things that we talked about when we saw this new edition And that and that show we did that three plus base save is going to be an absolute thing in a os now We've also discussed like that asset test I was mentioning to you about how are we looking as we get into 3.0 with regard to rebalancing the value of range damage relative to control Sort of mobility and then melee, you know, it's like let's say our four buckets Or our three buckets with control and mobility in one bucket. How how are we looking? I think we're in a better spot Then we were certainly in the last six months of 2.0 It was a mess as we know I think you know a 2.0 and the range damage and what it was doing to this game Yep, this is we accidentally solved some of the ranged problem through the fact that ranged Tends to often be neg one like the range that was doing a lot of work Tended to be red one now. That's not true for all the real abusers were Sentinels and dock bow snakes who don't care about hit and are always just mortal wounding with their shots, right? Yeah So like the value of something that shoots and doesn't do mortal wounds actually went way down Yes, yes, because it's just too easy to be highly resistant to that damage Right for for your devastating pieces Right for the things that they like would have traditionally removed with that Exactly that would have would have burned down that maw crusher in round one or round two and there you go.  What are you doing? If it's not if you're not doing mortal wounds Leave like yeah, I don't care Yeah, right So I you know i'm trying to figure like it's definitely helping And there's a lot in that you know iron drakes now I think you could probably can you still get you know Offhand if you can still get iron drakes to minus three rents if you double tap the prayer on a two No, you can't repeat prayers Oh, okay, okay I wanted to check on that Maybe that's something if anybody knows offhand or to confirm that one way or another but obviously they get my rents two rents Yeah, yeah, exactly So, I mean that could still do you know good work iron drakes are still strong But there there's definitely that big but now which you know again three plus base save you set up It's it's about kind of sequencing. You know where like round one you might need to be casting mystic shield on your uh bully piece And then your bully piece goes off and it's got the reach to get into combat start doing somewhere cool your opponent goes Pop that finest hour All right, maybe it's out of plus Constantly a purely defensive move a purely defensive move right exactly And it just takes a little bit of the sequencing getting off for the game a game to tilt with that stuff So anyway, I think it's really helped tone down the rents Uh shooting output that we were seeing in 2.0 But there's certainly some cost on the other side of it that we're that we're experiencing And I don't really have a good sense of like where we're going to come out in the wash No, I I agree. I think I think more time is needed to just sort of watch and witness, right? That's what's going to come down to. Yep um, all right, so Yeah, all of these things and my ultimate answer I feel right now when it comes to these hero monsters is like they still can't affect the game that much like sure Manfred may not die the the cabbage may be really tough, you know, whatever, right? But they're still pretty limited pieces and what they're overall what overall they can do Okay, and then there is Then there's then there's these guys These three, okay Let's talk about the god dilemma Uh, there are three problem gods or godlike creatures that need some adjustments. Yes, okay At least three maybe maybe maybe more. Yeah, these three are definitely in The naughty group. They need to go in the penalty box Right, okay. Okay. First off apologies chad. You're not going to like this section if you see it my friends I'm gonna I'm not gonna say some things about marathion or point value.  Here we go. Universally all three of these are too low-pointed by probably 100 points That's straight up There are 100 points off like they're not even close So we're looking at 435 right now for go trick, right? Yes, and then we're at 660 for marathi. Yeah, that doesn't even saying it doesn't sound right. Oh my god. It feels wrong I feel dirty Yeah, and then 830 on archaeon. Yeah, these are you have correctly identified all three of their points values. Yes. Okay Yeah, no that make yeah at minimum 100 point increase across the board. Sure Coach said leave his waifu alone. I understand sure Okay It's totally fair Uh, look, I love marathi. She's she's fantastic. We she we rated her our number one god in our in our god tier list, Joe Yeah, uh, and I stand behind that. She's absolutely wonderful All these people are 100 points too cheap There's no world where she's where she's cheaper than a laurel.   It what is she 740? Tell her the 740 is a laurel is 515 points. Nope. Get out of here. I don't want to hear the I summon stuff example. That's not that's that's nonsense You don't pay to summon. Why does everybody say that's nonsense because it is have because I summoned her north or tree lord You're already gonna have that in your in which case. I only play 4k lists when I place the national shut up That's not how we not how we calculate things your list is what you had it's built into her cost And marathi is better. Enjoy your dumb tree lord or your three kernoff I have two marathis and they're both better than either one of your things Yeah, if you add those up sure All right, I know I'm not disagreeing on that but I I'm getting tired of this idea that she's 740 points like No, she's not She and three says it right there are 740 points I mean if you're getting her killed before you get those out. I don't know what to tell you Well, it's certainly possible You've done so it's certainly on the world possibilities. It is more possibly short boards. That's fair. Yes, like, you know She actually isn't super resistant to to to range stuff in the first round before she's had a chance to cast anything or do anything Right. Yeah, she can never be thunderstruck pretty hard All right, never play her you probably don't want to play her outside instantly outside of a one drop play her in battle regiment And and and have a good sign. Yeah, because yeah, you don't want to be out dropped Correct. Um, yeah, I mean look my answer is and you know, autumn said honestly Most people I hear demanding points increases just don't want to see the gods in the field and that's not true I do want to see him on the field.  Okay. I really do like I I have two Archeons Right Hmm. I Clearly I love the guy Right. You you have a perverted. You have one perverted Archeon a beautiful Archeal Yes, it was wonderful and leads my my lurid host Uh-huh These but these look bottom line. They're just all too cheap like we can get into individual examples Marathi being, you know, unkillable until round three is should be justification enough Right. Yeah, she's two heroes. She can do two different things. She can complete two different battle tactics in different ways like She's crazy what she can accomplish and what she can do and and by the way, she's also quite durable beyond that Right, like you can actually get her tough enough that she'll withstand Yeah, right. Yeah, because she's four four base And yeah, they've been the stack rent so you can pretty easily get a sack against her and pretty easily get out of three plus Yeah Because of things like cauldrons and the fact that that still gives plus one to save and so on and so forth, right? Right and you can make her I mean that one of the challenges with her was always her potential derp through uh Her derp through potential and that's been cleaned up a little bit now with Titanic duel for plus one hit against monsters. Yes, and I also assumed she's going to go back to neg two rent again because Because they just forgot that they removed it. So the The funny rent swing continues I mean our key on at 8 30 as we said many times in the show There aren't many things in this game that can actually kill him Probably one of the only other things that can kill him is go-trek. Maybe nine storm friends, right? Yeah, that probably does Right. Um, if if they're juiced Sure, right if they're juiced with more more war power and all the appropriate You know sort of buffs, right? right um But you know again his it's very easy for archion to be on two up Ignoring up to rend three and staying on three Yeah rolling ones Right, right. So like that's just a very real profile that he will be on quite easily now like And that and by the way, that's not taking bad stuff. There's no tax to that. That's just taking the stuff you were going to take anyways Yeah, it's like a duplicitous army Yeah, exactly zinge you'll see in the most there So he could potentially be at a four up ignoring spells and then the spells and another built-in four up ignoring spells and then the spells And then he's healing built-in B. So heroic What was it? Ray Heals 3d3 around two heroic recovery Right and his uh his chompy chomp head Yep, yeah So yeah, if you don't You don't take them out and in one go.  I think in this game And he has been for a little while like said, you know, we talk a lot about the tail end of 2.0 He was all over the place on tts It was just obnoxious and it's been worse now because we're on so we have you know, as we're getting into later We have so many uh less objectives on these boards Right, which is an enormous issue with pieces like this that you cannot hide from them Yep, totally agree Yeah, I mean, they're just like even go trek Whoever like admittedly the thing on go track is that he's slow But that matters a lot less on a smaller board when as we said in some of the scenarios you're 12 inches from the enemy line on the diagonal Yep Even go trek can get there and he's just gonna walk up to an objective and be like this is mine now I'll kill anybody that moves Yep, right Uh Like that's just what's gonna happen Uh, you know and and by the way he can actually get on a lot of these boards He can get from objective to objective like he can hold these two or these two or whatever, you know, it's 15 inches apart Like I don't mean he's literally holding two of them at the same time I mean, he's like he can kill everybody off one and pretty quickly like the next round make it to the other one Sure, right. It's not that mega far away Yeah, okay Not every scenario some of them do still have some distance in them, but certainly on the on the center objective ones He's a he's a nightmare All right, I was gonna say at least with him you do still have You know, some armies could have ways to slow his movement, you know, reduce his movement in half We've talked a lot about the corn demon prince is amazing commandability You know, there are a number of ways in the game But not it's not equal access, of course But there are a number of ways in the game where you can potentially reduce movement Significantly or turn them up. He's probably got a bravery of 10 But arc you on you can't do that anything that or potentially you can't do that Particularly in zinch if he's double tapping the four ups like you got shackles cool in zinch He could potentially just you know, he's 75 chance. He's just gonna ignore shackles You got overwhelming heats or you know name your favorite pets Reducing movement thing anything that's a spell he could just ignore that potentially So I'm not sure what all in the game there is that's not a spell that can reduce movement That would be interesting to look at. Yeah, but we're kind of I mean, he's he's gross in corn. He's gross in zinch Uh, I mean those are probably the two big offenders Uh, so, you know, like he can he can get there. He can do the work. I think either of those armies. He's an utter nightmare And you can just you know rule the board and again, he's kind of the the type of thing that can that can just Start sweeping around objectives in the middle right, right So, yeah, I mean he He needs to be more expensive bottom line. He should just be a thousand. Yeah I should just be a thousand. Oh, yeah, definitely Yeah Yeah, he you can't I don't think you can really overstate at this point How How bad he is for the game, I think Like at this point value, you know, I would expect if we're going to tournaments He he's just gonna be all over the place. Sure And it's just he's just uh, yeah, I think Yeah, really really unhealthy for the for the landscape for the for the state of the game Ironically go trek is the one tool that at least order armies have access to sure to do something about him And but I mean, I do think it's fair to say that go trick is a problem in itself right now at his point But at least with go trick, he's fixable largely through point value change. Yeah, sure I mean, I don't know. I think I think arcane on it a thousand gets a lot less appealing Like that just does chew up more of your army, right? Okay, the scary part about go trek is that he can kill anything he touches and you have 1600 points of serif on behind him Right, right. Yeah, like that's still a lot of serif on or or whatever, you know, pick your pick your poison, right? Sure Yeah Like in my mind Murathi should be 760 go trek should be assuming he's got his current scroll He should be, you know, over 500 considerably basically back at all point value at least an archaean should be a flat thousand All these people got mega power-ups in the new edition mega power-ups Uh between between just the printed rules of what hero monsters can do now or just heroes in the case of go trek But he didn't he doesn't need the monster crap anyways. Yeah, right and the Uh And just the fundamentals that we talked about right and then we'll talk about more right, right So you want to chat negash? Yeah, negash is an interesting one, right? Mm-hmm because he's 970 so he's actually kind of in the right place points wise, right And He doesn't have the he actually has some interesting fundamental challenges that the the rest of these don't have Okay What I mean by that is like A lot of negash's power relies on Spell casting Yeah, yep his the his ability to to rapid fire eight spells Like it's he's okay in melee. He's quite tough and so on and so forth like it's not that he does no damage He's still like gosh like he does damage He's pretty reasonable in melee uh melee melee outside of Of the eight potential arcane bolts. He's throwing in your face at the start. Yeah, sure, but I'm saying that's still that's his spell casting I'm literally saying like his melee profile is it's okay. It's not bad, right? Yeah. Yeah, it's fine um The problem with him relying on spell casting is that spell casting is innately on Unindependable, I'm pretty sure right he can roll bad. He can uh, you can be unbound Uh, he can miscast Like it would not be a weird world for you to be like I cast a spell. It's successful. I rolled well I cast a spell. Oops.   I roll again. It gets unbound I roll a fifth time. This is my fifth cast and I miscasted. I lose all the rest of my cast and it's like, okay Well, right What did you accomplish there?  It was quite good as a way to potentially um machine gun heal negash I'll have to find it as we're talking That's a good one But you know, it's like the you know Negash is like he's he's maybe on this he would like I would put him in a tbt list I think he's probably A challenge but not in the same category as these three Who I just think fundamentally break games right Because they're so rock paper scissors. They just like they're they don't there's their rocks that they don't make paper big enough to cover or whatever right yeah Well, yeah, I I mean, this could be my daughter's cane bias coming through because I did play the army quite a bit over the last year plus You know there you can at least You you have ways to get marathi off the board now. She's more likely to yeah do some work And at least those first two rounds that she's going to be on the board but you know, I I would Distinguish her in that regard relative to go trick and Certainly arcy on her inability to heal holds her back Mightily in the new edition, but she's still strong Yes, okay, and especially in her force. She's a very synergistic piece With her army because she doesn't it's not like she's just being marathi Sure, right. She's doing a lot of other stuff too. Yeah Right Yeah, she's also being like 15 snakebos Do some work Yeah, thank you. Do some work again. Yeah, you know, so it's like my razor and yeah Plus one attack on some, you know, melee snakes. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I'm gonna I'm just gonna keep seeing me saying melee I'm just leaning into it at this point. Do you do you buddy? It's all right. This is a real good show I'm done. I'm done being self-conscious about it. Do not Sorry you ever be self-conscious about your pronunciations Okay On the gash, I know that russ has been looking into him And he thinks that he's got some play much. I don't know if you heard him talk He had a little show where he was talking about it. Yeah, I thought there was some good discussion I came out. It was probably the you know, the death show or one of the this old light shows that they were doing Recently and yeah, he made he made a lot of good points. So, you know, like one of the basic ones, you know Portal hand of portal hand of dust through spell portal is absolutely still a thing And if we're going to have all of these three plus armor save, you know Here are monsters starting with archae on running around the board then that could be quite tasty Yeah in 3.0. So as a as a counter to all these hero monsters But uh, yeah, yeah, I think it's yeah, you're right. It's tbd for the most part. Yep Uh, so there's this is a this is a problem like and and I normally wouldn't pick individual models Like we didn't pick a lot of specific stuff like this for this show But these three are sort of so egregious to me Yeah, then I felt like they ride they they literally like rose above Right to just tower over over the problems that might exist in any individual army Uh, yeah, okay Uh terrain, uh, we've talked about this one before I'll make this one kind of simple The train rules just aren't where we would want them to be It still feels like we didn't get the exact types of terrain we needed um You know like I just I just wanted to see terrain be better It bothers me to no end that they gave impassable to some of the faction terrain But didn't make impassable a generic thing we could just label terrain with Yeah, um You know like we should have we did a show with rob on terrain rob's making a terrain pack.  It's giving you plus one to save So sure yeah Yeah, I think we need to definitely do another dedicated show on this And maybe we could do it when the the terrain project is really announced or you know and and or when rob Yeah, it's got something ready to kind of blast out I I was taking a look at What was some of his work or your guys work together on the latest iteration of that the other day And it seemed like it needed a little bit of uh addressing to bring it online with 3.0 But like I really like the fundamentals that are there right And then yeah, I think there's some there's some some good stuff there It needs you know sort of finalized cleaned up and and brought fully in the line But to me ultimately that's the four terrain types right that's what it should sure Yeah Yeah, and Yeah, there's there's no other things.  Oh, sorry. Uh, yes. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Thank you for what happens Like I've got the model. It's trying to land right here Right.  Who cares like that's fine.  You shouldn't generally be dealing with it Like we should be making smarter choices. All right. Yeah Yeah Yeah, I mean we we could talk for an hour on this Yeah, let's do a show. Maybe we can get pollcaster on He's he's working we're working together on this dream project It'd be great to have him on to talk about all this stuff and everything he's been doing I think that's an idea Just do it. Yeah, a real real deep dive I like that idea. I like that idea greatly All right So that's kind of our problem section. Let's move to the tbd Right to the maybe problems to the We're watching you. Okay Uh, so this is like stuff that we're not sure is a problem But it might be a challenge. We should all keep our eye on it and think about it as we go forward Okay So seismic shift, it's a big deal. But is it a problem? Um in some scenarios it matters a lot in some it doesn't matter at all What are we playing is really the question, right? If the if the scenarios we end up favoring Don't have a lot of prime objectives Or you know that kind of thing then suddenly seismic shift is going to be one of the most important things You can ever use in the game period ever Right and and what and who wins priority into three is going to just be the most important role of the entire game Yeah, because games will just get decided on the priority role into turn three If we're playing mostly stuff that has a lot of prime objectives or is tilted towards the prime objectives then Who cares right? This literally doesn't matter at all If it's like a tournament is three primes and two non's Okay, then it might be about balanced Right, it's overall important I don't know. What do you think? Yeah, this is one that goes with I think our last one the the one about the lower objective count And the potential of these power pieces to you know, your your power per square inch In relation to their potential impact on the game Yeah I I think there's a lot of potential for this to be a problem I don't have enough games yet to have a good sense about it It's had some impact in the games so far, you know, like we you probably play games as well already where You know like because you won the round three you were able to Go second and choose to burn A particular objective which had a big impact in the game that's definitely come up in my game so far You know either because it was that or because you know, maybe my opponent Decided not to burn An objective and it kept them in that game, you know, like they had more scoring opportunity or whatever it was So it's it's definitely been impactful Now is it you know the question and is it going to have an outsized impact where it skews The game to an unhealthy degree There's a lot of potential for it man like I'm I'm worried about the smaller Yeah, I don't know a lot of what I'm going to say right here is going to be said about the lower objective count Because I think that's fundamentally for me what it comes down to so maybe I could just wait and we could kind of add it all I think this is a big tvd.   Okay, cool I'm gonna have to try to take that into account in relation to what I'm doing Right same thing potentially, you know with a lot of these these scenarios And one that I saw Anybody hasn't seen the latest battle report from season of war. There's a great example of this So roge and jordan were playing. I think it was roges. I think it was their first game on power in numbers The one that you have to hold for two consecutive turns. No, no, no Which whichever one is the battle line only that can or the battle line takes precedence. Yeah power numbers Okay power numbers. Okay. So yeah, they played that one And it got like round two and jordan has this realized not I don't think I'm gonna spoil this jordan has this realization that oh crap, I should have been planning for the potential of Winning the role in round three To then go second and burn one of the objectives And in my round two focusing on burning as many of the other objectives as possible And not to spoil what happens, but they kind of got into that situation There's a few of these variables that came together and he had this realization So it was that was really interesting to see with that scenario in particular Where you can burn it's not just you can only burn your opponents, but you can burn yours as well In power numbers. I'm pretty sure So yeah interesting. Yeah. Anyway. Nope. Good. Good call out. All right Battle tactics. Yep. So this is one where I'm kind of flip-flopping on something I said before in a previous show Because my original point of view was wow, these are really easy to get all five But I realized I was looking through the lens of certain armies Right as I've gotten more games in and watched more varied armies play Like as we've gotten more games in with more armies in our club, right in our group It's come to my attention that like wow actually some Armies are really hard pressed to complete some of these Right There are some armies that just slam dunk on these all day And and you like do not have a problem Come completing these at all. You can just be like yep this one now this one now this one now this one Maybe in round five. You're like, I'm not sure Yeah But you know a lot of these rely on doing things like doing damage, you know Broken ranks.  You've got to be able to take something over, right? You got to be able to kill somebody off an objective right So on and so forth Slay the warlord same thing, right Like the first three I've read on that list are all deal a bunch of damage Right bring it down same thing Okay Aggressive expansion in basically any turn except the first if you go for the first turn if you go first Yeah, where in which case you always use aggressive expansion first if the if the scenario allows for it, right? Yeah, definitely And there's some of these where because of certain hero monsters we talked about they can use their one You know very tough hero monster Right to go complete multiples of these Mm-hmm, right like you'll take archie on and go kill a battle line unit Then you'll take archie on and go take an objective Sure, you'll take archie on and go bring it down Yeah right And there's this this is why you know the the air the main area where we're all going to Develop our mini game understanding with these battle tactics particularly in terms of trying to prevent your opponents From getting their battle tactics because yeah, that's been very impactful in the game so far Is that that differential between who got their battle tactics and who didn't yep? Yep 100% Uh new ps. Yes, absolutely. I would we mentioned that at the start at the top But no issue 100% if I was if I was working with a new player I would skip battle tactics. You don't need them. They're not relevant to actually playing the game There they should be seen as as Uh like sprinkles on the cupcake. You still got a delicious cupcake. You don't need the sprinkles Um Yeah, I mean in in watching various armies play up against this I've realized not only is it just like there's sort of three tiers I struggle on a lot of these I can complete them pretty well I can slam dunk on them and have monsters to do them Yeah Right, so okay. Let's talk about some examples. Do you got an example of mind of that? Sunships I have a top tier easy all day All day long, right? I have enough damage.  Well, like I have objective control. So I'll conquer easy, right?   It's three babies wander near an objective. They just took it They're 45 models There's very few units in the game that could literally exist that would stop them Sure Um broken ranks. Sure. No problem in goes the gate breaker and maybe some babies I guarantee I'm gonna kill any battle I need and I need to other than like 30 pinks Yeah, right, right Um, bring it down. No problem. My monsters are good at killing enemy monsters, right? Like if if I'm killing if I kill an enemy monster, it's going to be with one of my monsters because that's all I have Yeah, right Um, and you know ultimately you've got the so like sun's topped here Right Um You know, I look at like somebody who's kind of tough here night on night on are in the are one of the examples Lord here not just because they don't have monsters But because they also often struggle to push high damage to spike damage Yeah, I've played them twice and three point out so far with the double cabbage and that's been the problem Yeah, you know, he's been like we thought he's been running the two bricks of 30 Chain rasp which are good Which yeah, like dude that there's so good a dice that they pop out with the re-rolls and it's amazing, but to up save You got to roll a lot of ones Exactly. Yeah, like they're really good. They're hard to kill. They're sticky. They come back in droves I'm a fan and right nor is of of the chain rest ports. I think they they absolutely do work But like fundamentally that army struggles to spike damage Sure. Yeah, and a lot of these are saying hey if you want this thing go spike damage, right? And The metamorphosis spell can only do so much Right And again certain armies have a better ability to take advantage of the metamorphosis spell than others Right if you're in ogres Where you like cast metamorphosis on like a tyrant or a slaughter master or a butcher or whatever the heck They know whatever though your your foot heroes are. Yeah, they're already reasonably tough Okay And they go then then they charge in and now they do mortal wounds on a four up of their charge rule because now They count as a monster in their own army and do a ton more mortal wounds on the impact It's just like it's a multiplicative factor with them, right? Yeah, totally If you have super tough foot heroes that you you know are reasonably survivable, right? Like if you've got yandrasta all all metamorphosis her all day long Oh, gosh. Yeah Yeah, she's gonna be so with a predator bodyguard. Oh, she's gonna be so tough to bring down Right like because she's just you know built for tough as it works, right? She's very hard to kill. All right Even without the predators there, but if the predators are there, she's just Okay, yeah, probably do something else, you know So again, it's not it's not equitably distributed who can make the best use of metamorphosis sure um Yeah, so I ultimately my my thought here Okay is I really think over time what we're going to be able to and and again Some of my stratification is really pure guessing at this point, right? Because I don't know what armies people are playing. I haven't really seen it all play out We just don't have enough games and it's not a perhaps not enough data, right? Right But the reality is that your We're going to see over time. I fully fully fully believe That you will see over time a big distinction and who is completing a lot of these and who's not I really hope this gets turned in on tournament reports of how many like battle tactics people completed Yeah, we're gonna do that love to in six months do an analysis of Average number of battle tactics completed per game by army. That's dream data Please everybody do this with your events Yeah, we're gonna do it this weekend for our first 3.0 events one day or yeah. Yeah I think that would just be so illuminating because I think there will absolutely become big deltas Mr. Pickle said so do I do so I need to be careful with my frost lord on stone horn I can sort or can I still yeet him at things? Uh, oh the frost lord on stone horn. You can yeet away buddy.  I think it's a four plus base save with a four board No, the frost lord. No, oh, sorry frost lord.  I thought you said frost art gotcha No, no, yes the frost art phoenix Who you could also yeet at things if you should so desire Is a four up base save with a Four up after save who his save gets a lot better when he starts casting his own spells on himself like casting flaming weapons on himself Another such nonsense Right, right sure Okay Yeah But yes, both are fully eatable right No, yeah, this is the area man that yeah, I don't really have my head wrapped around yet. Yeah in terms of How you know the the impact the various impact that these battle tactics are going to have in games on The different factions on the different type of armies, you know like ranged armies versus melee armies versus combined You know toolbox armies versus control armies High model count armies versus monster heavy, you know leader, you know, yada yada yada like don't really have a good sense Of that yet how all that's going to shake out You know, I think we have this general belief that this edition is telling us Clearly run hero monsters with three up save in particular And that very well may turn out to be true for quite some time, you know in the in the high value But yeah, there's a great article by plastic crack Peter Atkinson on goon hammer goon hammer.com Where he breaks down, you know his thoughts on these battle tactics, you know like ways to potentially deny Some from your opponents and a lot of what we're talking about here So if anybody hasn't seen that definitely check that out. It's really one of the best articles out there on the battle tactics so far Nice. Nice All right, cool Uh, but yes, I again, this is in the tvd not direct problem just the tvd category because The delta could be quite small Right once I see the data it could be like, oh no, actually there's not that much of a difference And I'd be like there's it's clear you can see there's a difference, but it's not hugely different I'd be like, okay, right? That's cool. Or we could see like Yeah, this army's averaging one these armies are all averaging five. I'd be like, whoa It it is it is so hard to ignore the staring at this screen monster monster monster monster one two three four five of the eight And maybe there's just some nuance there But you know four or five that are giving you bonus points for for a monster doing something And you know the when a lot of these games are have been close that I've certainly been playing I either like like we're talking about either one of us are getting blown off the board early Or the games are really close and you know, we discussed how the system is generally incentivizing closer games are just great Right. Yeah, a few points here. They're swinging on bonuses for monsters could be really big So I don't know it's kind of kind of hard not to draw that working conclusion from what we're staring at here Agreed All right next up It's not the east side. It's not the west side.  Even if they're just even if your death star is now instead of being like 30 dudes It's one hero monster who still gets there Right. Yeah Uh, so yeah power per square inch is the is the hottest thing. It's so hot right now um Yeah, that's what it comes down to yeah Yeah, again it This was the thing that yeah, I didn't Like the dots didn't connect immediately when first looking at the ghp and everything But yeah after playing 10 or so games.  You can't go run off on that six objective over there back in You know ghp 20 with all of its six objective scenarios or eight objectives That ain't that ain't happened as much anymore Uh, yeah, I'm really worried about this In general with the game when you combine this Yeah with everything that we've discussed about these death star hero monsters slash units Range version or melee version or or otherwise. Yeah, it's I think it's going to be a real issue Yeah, and part of the key here is again in the scenarios and it'll be interesting to see what ends up becoming the tournament faves I know we picked our six on our on our scenario review show, right? Yeah, and most of those have some pretty close objectives, you know sort of grouping toward the middle That's why I added I told you after the fact that feral foray, right? Like in the moment again, it still does spread you out. So Yeah, like I feel like six objective I would yeah, I would want both of the six objectives in a tournament pack, right Just because there's six objectives and this game We need to be spread out more with these shorter tables and all these objectives and we're potentially removing objectives and Yeah Right. I mean the as I mentioned earlier like go trick on some of these deployments is just going to be like in the mix Right away.  Yeah, uh, so you know Like the the the reality is that The more sort of synergistic power and again, this isn't all just hero monsters It can be stuff like it can be stuff like knights the empty throne you mentioned that there's some units I think that still absolutely fall into this right that can still actually get um They can still actually get super buffed up enough to to get there. Okay Um And but but those units that can like the storm friends is a great example, right? That's just that's power per square inch personified, right?  Sure. He can only do so much Yeah Yeah And not not everybody's not everybody's got a piece like that. You know, there's not equitable access to those tools To to help with yeah, the the nine storm fiends or you know, pick your pick your poison, right? Yep. Yep Yeah, it's it's one thing that you've said over the years that I've always really appreciated Yeah, is that like just because there there could be a solution or two that's out there that that's beside the points Doesn't mean everybody has that solution like right that's interesting in the wholism of the game Right, that might gate keep those things. Sometimes I've just like domination position Sure, right, but that doesn't but but when you but that's not how we play the game I don't play all the games when I play my one game. I play my one game. I've got the tools. I've got right, right Uh, so yeah, it's like I I love and I'm fascinated personally by the question of what can kill 30 pink whores But I don't think that's a great question for us to ask sure in the game Like that's the wrong question for us to ask in terms of a of a healthy game, right? But it's a it's a fun question. It's it's really interesting. Yeah, but yeah So this is another one I'm watching like I'll be interested to see how this plays out I think this is a lot to do with like what scenarios do people pick Do they pick more stuff where the the objectives are more spread out where it's they do they include both of the six objective Uh scenarios do that tend to barrel for a empowered numbers become standard in tournament packs and stuff like that, right? If those end up becoming the picks Right If like bellicor and legion of the first prince ends up becoming super popular Right, then you're gonna see downward pressure on the stuff and people naturally spreading out more Right, so this kid. This is one of those ones that could tip in different directions Sure, depending on how the world plays out. That's why it's in the tbd category yeah Do you think that we would be in a healthier place if we Did not have seismic shift and or if we had a higher average number of objectives Like I don't know on a definitely on b. Yeah We ended up grouping a lot around the middle Uh Like for just like when we reset the the new scenarios, we just ended up grouping a lot around the middle Yeah, and I'm not sure why that was Yeah in this in this particular iteration of design so Yeah, we've got first blood We have survival the fittest tectonic interference Apex predators I mean device is kind of in its own category, but it eventually gets to the middle pushes toward the middle. Yeah Yeah, so that's kind of like four and a half so far Uh tooth, uh tooth and now I'm not exactly that kind of but not exactly maybe that's another half And then yeah the veins of ger which are three but but a little bit different. So, you know, maybe like five or so five or six, but Yeah, that's that's yeah, that's that's a high number strictly relative to where we had been All right, uh, we got death star. Okay Let's just talk about some oddities. This is my last slide. This will just take a quick Moment of conversation. Oh, that's right. I added a new slide since I sent it to you Yeah, yeah, I just clicked down and it's not there No, this is my this is my new one that I added as I was just thinking about some other things Well, this one's gonna be fast though So just just some oddities. These are just head scratchers Just rules sequestered in strange places. We mentioned these in the last show. These are not bad. These are just things that are weird The match play priority being different than like the base priority and causing a bunch of confusion over people Coalition units and elite units only existing in like the ghp and or these other and the faq even right with these places We talked about a lot last week. I don't think these are bad.  So not problems, but just like oops. It feels like we kind of just made some weird decisions with this stuff um, the one I don't have up here, but I would also say is that the Not putting the core book matched play rules Into the free rules pack and the core book matched play rules Has the full table for like 500. 750,000 1500 2000 3000 Yeah, I really like Yeah, it's a nice big table that lets you play on lots of points But a lot of people are just using the free rules and don't necessarily have the big book And so if they have just the ghp and the free rules, they don't have access to that table Sure Because they just decided to print a smaller version of the table in the ghp for like layout reasons, I guess That was strange. Yeah, I don't understand at all. Just that it should be they should both be the same table Why are they different tables? So yeah, we we should all be using that that core book and not feeling bad about Playing anything in that table from the core book. That's great. Like 1500 point games. Love it We'd love to play a lot of 1500 point games Yeah So absolutely like that's so these are just a couple oddities that occurred to me. There you go. Yeah That's all cool easy enough. Yeah, that's all We shaved dude. We shaved an hour off of our average over now the last eight weeks We have been averaging three hours and roughly 30 minutes It's a new it's a new dawn It's a new dawn. It's a new day. All right So at any rate, uh, there you go, did we miss anything For you any problem areas challenge areas you have do you need to get something off your chest? Do you need to rant drop that down in the comments below? We want to see it It'll be I really want to see the conversation on this one Uh, don't forget to please hit like I can already see that the that the thumbs downers Are are up and about for this since we mentioned a slightly controversial topic Uh And uh, so don't so please do hit like it helps other people find the show Sleepy hds said you used to be able to reroll a charge roll. Is that gone? No, you can still do it You can just only do it once per phase because all command abilities are now capped at once per phase Um, but yes, you can absolutely still do it And uh, so for all of you out there hit like subscribe if you haven't already Obviously, we would love to have you on the journey here with the channel Uh starting next week and then for many of the weeks to come but not it's not going to be every single week But we're going to do a lot of them over the coming months and weeks and stuff Uh, we'll begin our revisiting the armies in 3.0. We're going to start looking at the forces Looking at the factions see how their ship's shaping up digging deep Into these armies and I am excited about them. Oh boy. Oh boy Let's skip whatever armies that paul content guy plays We don't need him on the show anymore. Yeah, well your your lead is safely ahead of him now. So I don't know He's gonna have to do his own guest hosting run. I would suppose But I am very excited to start talking about some armies. I'm jazzed. We've already got some really fun guests lined up To come in and talk about armies So, uh, this it's gonna be fun because now we can we've laid down all this groundwork And we can really