Welcome for coming here this morning. This is pretty new ground we're going to be touching. It's a headless project with WordPress and using GraphQL and React.js. We had a little bit of talk with React this morning, and there will be other talks later on today with React. So it's pretty new ground for us PHP developers. In 2015, Matt Mullenweg from WordPress, the founder of WordPress, in December 2015, asked us developers to do some homework. Who has done their homework? Learn JavaScript deeply. OK. Get yourself started now, because the wave has already started, and WordPress is moving on a lot, and it will be moving fast. And so anybody got touched with React? Rest API? OK. GraphQL? Yeah. OK, cool, cool. All right, all right. So it's going to be pretty new ground. So the goal of today is just to make yourself aware what's GraphQL, what does it do, and how to implement it with WordPress and with React. You won't be a specialist, but at least you'll know what it does and why we would be good to use it. My name is Etienne Ballanger. I'm a WordPress developer. I've been using WordPress for 10 years. I'm a self-taught developer. So when I don't work during the day, at night, I just study and work on that. Else? The web has changed a lot. From a lot of years since I've been starting touching the web, about 15 years ago, it was just a website, just a basic from desktop computers. You hooked onto a website and did research or did different kind of basic information. And WordPress as well has changed a lot since then. There's what we call traditional CMS. Traditional CMS, it's a framework that comes in with a back-end and a front-end tools, functions, and ways of working in order to produce your back-end and your front-end.  You can just manage with the traditional CMS that you hooked in with your back-end and your front-end the tools, and everything comes in built-in with your database and your web server. But in our days, we got tons of devices that need to hook to your computer, to your device, to your back-end in order to retrieve data or to send data. Whatever. It's a computer. It's all those internet of things that you can hook into your application and get data. So what we mean by a headless CMS is literally cutting your head, so making your front-end separate from your back-end totally.  That won't change. But your front-end, you'll use new tools. You could use Vue.js. You could use React, Ember, all those new UYs, JavaScript framework in order to produce your front-end. And you have an API within a layer of API that will allow you to retrieve and get data from. And then we have a decouple of a hybrid one, which is a mix between you stay within your WordPress front-end and back-end way of developing. But with the API, you can make some other function, other sites, ask data from your API and retrieve data. And they'll be allowed to do it. But headless is the way that this morning we're going to be showing. So really, the way to understand it is really your WordPress, your front-end in your back-end will be completely separate.  It's truly two separate things. The advantages of a headless CMS, it helps you separate the content from your presentation. And the back-end of WordPress is pretty secure. It's well built, and it's been tested for a lot of time for a different kind of use. And it's really friendly user. So if you give your back-end to a newbie, he'll be able to post in or add content. And it's pretty friendly user. But he doesn't need to know how the front-end has been produced or retrieved data. He just wants to add content and everything was paid out. And it allows us web developers to use new ways of building your user experience and using new libraries and new ways of a new stack in order to produce your front-end. And again, it helps you be able to let your application send data or at least have access to data to all kinds of devices that will be able to retrieve data from your site. So since WordPress 4.5, I'm not exactly sure. But since around that version of WordPress, there's something called REST API, which allows the WordPress to output data. So if you hit the DuluPgSandoP V2 endpoint, you'll retrieve data from your WordPress for since about two years or three years. So all the sites that you both put in on the world now that you can hit that endpoint, and you'll be able to retrieve data.  And you get a lot of data from there. You can hit users. You can hit categories. There's a lot of endpoints or URLs that you can hit in order to retrieve data. So if you want to, I'll be using a tool called Postman. And it helps us just to make some API calls and see what kind of data we retrieve from there. So if you see that at localhost, that's the name of my server. My local server, I have a basic WordPress installation and with just a team, a unit team data, the basic one. And then you hit the post URL. And as soon as you hit it, it'll retrieve the data. It's going to load the data. And then you'll get back all the data. That you'll get the ID, you'll get tons of data for all the posts that you had the 10 posts. So you get the author, the media, you'll get queries. You get tons of stuff. So in order to build your UI, what you need to build for that kind of UI here, you need to hit the post endpoint in order to retrieve the posts. But in order to retrieve the feature image, you need to hit another endpoint, which is media and with the ID of your feature image that you got from the post endpoint. Then you need to hit another endpoint in order to retrieve the user ID or user information. And the ID of the user, you got it from the post endpoint and category and the same thing or if you want other kind of data. As you can see that can be pretty much a lot of hitting endpoints in order to build all your UI. So there's a couple of disadvantages of using REST API. The first one is called overfetching. And overfetching is make your client download way too much information for your UI, what they need. So if we look at the UI we wanted to build here, you have your title, you have the category, you have your author, you have the author image, the author name and the data that it was produced. So as we saw earlier in the postman, here you got ton of data that you don't need. If we even hit, this is all the data that you get from the 10 posts. Do you need all that data? And do you need to your clients or users that are mobile that don't need to download all that data? So that's pretty a lot too much data to download. So that's overfetching. And the other problem is underfetching, it's making your user download not enough data so it needs to hit different endpoints in order to retrieve all the data that it needs to render your UI. And if you were talking about mintability and stability, scalability, it's really if your Facebook or Coursera or Google and you have an API, you might have a thousand endpoints to maintain and that's totally insane to maintain. So let's say that you retrieve the image in, I don't know, 500 endpoints and then you wanna make a different call to your image, a different function, you need to re-go in back all those endpoints and modify them. That's totally unmaintainable on the big scale. So Facebook since 2012, I started using or developing a tool called GraphQL. And in 2015, they made it open source. And what really GraphQL is, is just say an API, a query language for your API. So it's really not a replacement for MySQL, nothing that range. It's really just to query, just your API. So you'll hit one endpoint and you'll make your query and you'll retrieve the data that you ask for. Nothing more, nothing less. So for REST API, what you would need, you would need to hit the post endpoint and then the user endpoints and then the category endpoints. But with GraphQL, you just make one query, you ask for the post, you ask for your author, you ask for the name of your author, you name for your go in and you name for the category name. And just with that query, it'll return exactly that data. And that saves a lot of data. So there's three types of operation actions that you can do with GraphQL. You can do query, which that's what we're gonna see this morning. And that's just to retrieve the data. You can do mutations and mutations modify your data and subscriptions and that make your person available to subscribe to different actions. And the mud mutation and subscriptions, we won't go into that details and that could be pretty long. GraphQL really consists of two things. It's a GraphQL server and a GraphQL client. The GraphQL client will sit in your front end and your GraphQL server will sit in the different part, depending on the kind of a tool that you'll be using in order to build your GraphQL server. And the GraphQL server is responsible for building your schema for your API and is responsible for getting the data and returning the data. This is where all the function that goes in to solve the data. So if we look at here, that's a basic schema from GraphQL site. So if you go in and there's a type query and in that query you ask for a hero and a hero is a type character, then your character, you can define your own character and then you say that the name of your character is a string and the France is a, again it's a type character, then the home world, it's a type planet, you can define your own planet type character and really GraphQL is really type strict. So you cannot ask for, let's say for your character, you cannot ask for a integer for the name, you really need a string. It won't resolve the data and you won't get any data back. And for the GraphQL client, it's really responsible for making the, from the front end, it's just asking the data for it to your server, to your GraphQL server. It's just kind of a bridge between the two. So at the top here on the client side, that's the query. It looks a lot like JSON, but it's not JSON, it's really GraphQL. So here you ask for the hero, you ask for the name, the height and the mass and it'll return just that, not a bunch of data or useless data. So here you ask for hero, you get back Luke Skywalker, you get the name, the height and the mass. For building GraphQL server, GraphQL setup, there's a couple of ways. For the server, you can build everything custom, that's pretty tedious, good luck. Pretty long as well. There's a tool, the framework that can help you a lot. A little bit for advanced, it's called graph.cool. I didn't use it yet, but it's pretty really stateable and pretty awesome. Word Express, that's strictly built with WordPress. It gives you a GraphQL server and a GraphQL client. But the easiest way to get yourself up and running and we know that, you just need to install the plugin. Nothing else to do and you get a GraphQL server. It's built by a developer called Jason Baal and he does a really good work and it's really oftenly updated. So that's what I'll be using and that's what I have installed on my local machine, on my local WordPress install.  For a GraphQL client, there's two options. One is called Relay and it's built from Facebook. It's a little bit more complicated and a little bit for advanced. But the one that came out really strongly and it's really stable and really awesome to use. It's from a company called Apollo and it's Apollo Client. There's two, they have two tools that you can use Apollo Client or Apollo Boost. Apollo Boost is a no setup installation, pretty easy to use. It has what GraphQL and Apollo Client use and one of the main features it has built in cache. So if you query one page and it'll send 10 posts and your client or your user going to a different URL and come back to that page, it won't query your database, it won't query nothing because it knows it's in cache, it's just gonna deliver the data right away.  And nodes is your like your post, your author, your media idea with the content where exactly it lives. And then the edges is the relationship between the two. Let's say you have a post that is a node and then you have a author, again it's a node and what's the relationship between the two. And that's useful to understand when especially you use the GraphQL plugin in order to do pagination. That's useful to know. We won't see pagination today but again at the end of the slides there's a link to Jason Baal presentation in another word camp and it's about two hours and a half long and it shows all the process, all the thinking and build with React. So I'll be having three set up here. First I have a basic WordPress setup. I just installed a WordPress GraphQL plugin. You can extend it like you can extend a REST API. You can extend the GraphQL plugin. I won't go into the detail of that function but mainly what's important is the type. You just specify the kind of type of the function that the data you wanna retrieve and then you have the custom fields and it returns a custom field. So within the resolve function this is where you make all your retrieve the data on your server and then just output it. Then I have a React setup. So if nobody ever played with React you need to install what we call Node.js and then I'm in your command line. Sorry. I installed the Create React app. It's a Node setup installation to build a React app. It's really just, that will install it globally and then you install, you create your project, CD into your project and then that's the important part. You install packages, so libraries in order to link everything up and so I'll be using AppaloBoost, React, Appalo and GraphQL. The main part is AppaloBoost, that's the main one. The two others are just kind of a bridge in order to bridge React and GraphQL client and the GraphQL is just to make a query. I'll make sense soon and React DOM is just so that in my demo I can link on different and make different routes in the application and then you do Yarnstart and you go to your local host 3000, that's the basic setup with Create React app and you get yourself up and running. If we look, small demo.  So I'm here, I have a different component but I'm on home and if I hit post I'll retrieve and get back the 10 first posts of that site and like earlier I showed you that for REST API you can use Postman in order to play around with REST API but with GraphQL there's not a tool with just exactly the same thing, it's called Graphical and Graphical really allows you to play around with your queries in order to retrieve the data that you want and that's really a playground, it's pretty awesome to use. You can install, there's a Chrome extension, there's a app as well, you can install, you can install it by yourself, here I just installed the app and what's awesome here on this side you do your query, here you'll get the answer back and on this part and that's really awesome, it's all the documentation of that schema of that query, of that GraphQL schema, sorry. So on this part here you can see that I can do query and mutations, if you go in root query you'll get all the different things you can ask for, you can ask categories, category, you can get comments, you can post, media, so this is pretty much everywhere, all the things you can ask for and retrieve data. So here let's say that I want posts so you can pass in arguments, but let's just skip this out. So if I get, and what's nice about GraphQL is it already knows what's in the schema so it's like already asking you what do you really want so I can say posts, it's like a little bit like late Jason you open your brackets and so if I go in posts and then root connections, you got edges, again that's the part that you need to, so you got edges and then you got node inside and if you make a mistake in here, let's say I type here and already the, normally the GraphQL will tell you that it's an error and it won't be able to make the query for yourself. So you go in and nodes and in here, this is the gravy, this is exactly what you can ask for inside the node. So I say I want the author, I can get the name, the ID, again the ID won't be, it's a globally unique ID, but if you want the post ID, you just need to hit the post ID, if you want the slug, ask for the slug, I'll ask for the title, ask for the post ID and right away you get the author, the slug, the title and the post ID went pretty fast and you already got the 10 first posts. Let's say that you just want the first two posts, what you can do is put in arguments, just say first and say the five first and what it will do is just going to retrieve the files first post and again, it retrieve and send you back just the data that you ask so it get really fast. So in order to get your Apollo client set up within your React app, there's three steps to do, two of them, you just make it once and you don't deal about it. You need to import the Apollo client and you need to sign in and make a new Apollo client when you pass in your URL. Do you want where your GraphQL lives? And then you just need to wrap your application within a Apollo provider. So really in here, what are the two main lines is at the top here, you got Apollo provider and you just wrap all your application within Apollo provider and you pass in the client here, refers to the client, the variable client here. That's all that it does and so it'll know everything that's being, all actions that we'll be doing within your application, it will know. And what's awesome about Apollo client is that if you're on posts, it'll make one query but if you're on different pages and you have a lot of different queries, still it'll all gonna package all the different queries it needs to do and it will make just one query to your application, to your server. So it really loads super fast. Again, it has cache so it'll import, it will just make, just remember what are the data that has been downloaded and just make sure that it doesn't download stuff that it already done. So, and then in your components, you need to import GQL and query component. That's just, and that's the fun part.  So what you can do is just come in here, copy this part, I can select it. You could just select that, copy that, paste it in your application and there we go, you got yourself in here, you paste it in here and you'll get yourself your query already done. And then you just need to go in and pass in the query component and the query component takes the, again, as a parameter, it takes in, as a prop, it takes in your query here and just, and then what's nice with the query component that's been provided by Apollo client is that you have a if loading. So while your data is loading, you can make a loader, you can make it all kinds of different interaction and then if something is an error, again, you can make a different component and then if everything's good, it'll render your different component that you made in the return over here. This is the return, that's the data that will be outputted. Here I made a little card and I just pass in different props, key, just react way of knowing that if there's different in the list item, it needs a specific key. Then ID, slug, title and URL, that's all the different data I'm passing between my component, the card component. There we go. This is pretty, I know it's pretty new ground, it might be a little bit fraying, but don't be scared, it's not that hard, but you gotta play around a little bit. But as you see, it's not that complicated, I have two links over here, so if I open up. So here I have my app, this is where all my app lives. So I have my provider, I am ported Apollo client and Apollo provider from Apollo Boost and React Apollo. And then over here I render my client, Apollo and I wrap it with Apollo provider. And I just, here the route is just in order to make my routes over here. So if I click on home, it knows that it needs to go into my home component, I can do whatever I want in that component. And then if I hit post, then that's the component I'll show you. And that's the component over here. And really what it does, it just import React and import the GraphQL or the GQL component and the query component. And here I got my query and it's just, again, I just copy it and paste it from my playground which is the GraphQL and then wrap it within my post and I made a query component and inside the card component. If you want to see the card component, it's just a basic component, I just output an image and an H1 and it will render, that's my card over here. And then I got an image, you got a title. But again, that's totally all the animation and everything can be done different temp. This is from here, you got, you're totally on new ground. So it's up to you to make all the different functions you need to do. So you're totally out of the scope of WordPress. But again, it renders a lot faster. And if you look here and here, it's instant. So it really doesn't load back. Let's see, let's hit. So here it loading and then it outputs. Go back to home, go back to post, no loading. All right. So not too confused. Any questions? Do I go ahead? The question is why did I choose GraphQL instead of other different methods that has been around? Especially because GraphQL diminishes the disadvantages of REST API, of using your REST API. Because REST APIs, if you have a huge website, it has a lot of traffic. Imagine Facebook having a thousand endpoints to maintain and people would hit, for one UI, you would need to hit, I don't know, 10 endpoints. Imagine for all the users that are on Facebook that need to render your post, your page or your UI. That means a lot of queries, a lot of database usage and everything, even if you have caches and everything. It's a lot, using GraphQL diminishes the use of GraphQL. There's even another tool that out there, it's been done by Netflix, it's called Filecore. It's similarly as GraphQL. So, but GraphQL kind of made it up from this underground really fast, but it's, because it's pretty fast, faster than REST API. That's, if I'm not sure, I don't, if it adds legacy, latency, between if I separate the back and the front end, no. And in fact, because it's rendering JavaScript, it really renders faster than PHP. And within the theme or normal theme, if I don't know if anybody ever opened a plugin called Simply Show Hooks, and on your front end, you'll see about 20 kinds of hooks that your WordPress page needs to render before or go in and look if there's function hooked or attached to those hooks.  So, it really, it's super fast, and especially because it's in JavaScript as well. So, and that's why a lot of, there's a lot of buzz around React or Vue.js. That's our, that's the main power of those tools. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, WB GraphQL. So, the question is if the WB GraphQL, GraphQL is able to query a relationship between custom post types and custom data that are in relation. Normally, yeah, everything is done. If it's not done, you can add in the, like I put it a snippet, so you can extend the GraphQL plugin. But I think it's out of the box, it's supporting. But I'm not sure, I would have to see with the way you're making your relationship between the two. But normally it would be, it would work. The WB GraphQL made in about two, three weeks ago, they added the menu so you can query all the menus. You used to be separate. They have LCF, ACF as well coming in. And so, they're pretty intense on development as well. So, any more questions? Thank you very much. Thank you.


Hello and welcome back to the craft box. My name is Brent and today we are on episode 64 of the completionist crafters series today as the last couple of episodes. This is a death school recipe only Just gonna state state that right now, but today we are crafting steel health from mortis obviously so yeah on screen is Everything that you will need and require In order to craft this really probably not the two most useful treasure card But you know it's a treasure card nonetheless, and we have to craft it Ignore everything that's loading in the background. I had to reinstall the game three times, so don't don't worry about it It's all good, but yeah, here we go. Let's just got a treasure card so we can do it steel health Requires one goal treasure card which you can either craft or you can buy in the bizarre or the libraries Onyx I recommend going to probably the Crocatopia or Wizard City reagent vendor black coal same place Or you can go to Celestia because it's a bit more close to the spiral door mistwood Best place night's court or outside night's court that area there I have a reagent hunters video on it as well and or best place is probably The shadow palace or dragon spy are those two have a lot of it I just need to quickly sell a couple of treasure cards because we are full as Always we forget that we cannot sell it with another window up because why why would you do that? You know fly trap sure will sell all of those five of them sure thing Sure thing. There we go now. We can craft it ha ha wrong crafting station one problem with having them all next to each other Right, let's do this boom professional for yeah steel health fantastic. So that treasure card steals 350 life or basically just destroys the minion to give to yourself, so I use this for my Elixir vitae badge, but you can also use it for one on a million and elixir vitae to get them at the same time Really useful thing there. You just trap the minion and blade and then boom destroy it And so yeah, that's fun But otherwise not a particularly useful card mainly because you don't really use minions But if you need to that's a good option there arm to get some health back if you have a minute now But anyway, thank you for watching remember to leave a like and subscribe if you subscribe press the little bell so you know Exactly when I post another video and remember to craft outside the box


Flights carrying more than 450 evacuees and vulnerable Afghan populations from Afghanistan arrived at Naval Station Road August 27th in support of Operation Allies Refuge. We can't express how proud we are to take part in what is our nation's highest priority mission right now, and that is to provide safety, shelter, food, and conduct administrative processing to enable further transit to their ultimate destination for these people. I don't think we'll ever be able to express the full amount of gratitude that we have for our entire community and our Spanish hosts who have all pitched in to enable this very important mission. But probably the best sign of gratitude is displayed in the eyes of the people who arrived today when they realize that they're finally in a place of safety and security. These evacuees arrived on the United States Air Force C-17 Globemaster III from Kuwait International Airport.


I'm so glad to see so many of you here today. Welcome, welcome to the Future Trans Forum. This is our weekly conversation about the future of higher education. And we have a fantastic guest today, really, really great scholar and activist and a wonderful topic. Let's narrow in on our topic. Since March, we've been experiencing an extraordinary situation. Higher education and indeed the world has been under the enormous pressure of the COVID-19 pandemic. And we've been devoting a lot of our program attention to that ever since. And much of March and in April, we had a lot of sessions focused entirely on COVID and what it means for students, faculty, staff, in world and international students, financial sustainability, mental health, as much as we possibly could. And then in April, we kind of blended in COVID with other topics and other subjects as well. Now, in June, we also saw in the United States the birth of a brand new wave of Black Lives Matter anti-racist political organization and mobilization. And we've been addressing that as well. In fact, yesterday, we had a special session just focused on anti-racism in higher education. I'm mentioning these two because they shape our programs, they shape our conversations here on the Future Trans Forum, but indeed they shape our lives and our work and they feed into what we're gonna be talking about for the next couple of months or we'll be talking more about anti-racist movements. We're talking about fall 2020 planning, how to improve our teaching in this and how to do video conferencing well. All of that is a kind of background hum, a big context all around today's guest. I'm absolutely, absolutely delighted to welcome back Chris Newfield. Chris is a professor of American Studies at the University of California, Santa Barbara. He is a leading scholar, indeed a founder of the field of critical university studies. He's a fantastic writer. I can recommend a whole series of his books, including this one. This is the Great Mistake, which he'll be talking about today. And he has all kinds of wonderful deep research into this topic that we can discuss. So again, I'm very, very glad you can be here today. Greetings, greetings, Professor Newfield. Thanks, Brian, it's great to be here. Am I coming through all right? You're coming through beautiful, coming through beautiful. But listen, I introduced you as a professor at the Santa Barbara. Before I go further and we talk about content, can we talk about your impending move? Yeah, I'm moving to London if I can ever get a visa. Wow. I'm gonna be the director of research for something called the Independent Social Research Foundation, which funds interdisciplinary work on philosophy of economics, psychoanalysis and anthropology. It's looking at economics and decolonization movements in different parts of the world. So it's really, it funds a bunch of things that I've kind of been working on over the last few years across disciplines. And I'm really excited that, I mean, this is really the main thing. I'm excited to be able to give people support rather than just say I'm really interested in your work, but I don't have anything for you. So I'm, I'll be in a different position than I've been in as a professor, which is applying for money for myself. I can now give it out instead. Well, that's a very exciting change. I've been through that precise change myself. I'd be happy to talk about it. But that's great news for the rest of us who will probably be coming to you for all kinds of support. Please do. At least moral support. Well, but things are in chaos right now. So you might make the transatlantic move at some point, depending on what all the stars line up. Yeah, it's going to, visa offices are opening later this month and who knows how long the backlog is. So I'm going to be doing my London job from Santa Barbara for at least two more months and maybe longer. Well, good luck. Good luck with that. And all best wishes for your new position. We're going to have to, I think in a year and a half or so, bring you back as a guest. It'll be nighttime in London and you'll be there. Even more suave and even more impressive at that point. Friends, I have all kinds of questions to ask a professor and a friend. And I just want to start for the couple to get the ball rolling. But remember the key point here, the future transfer is to hear from you, to hear your thoughts, your questions and your comments. So again, once you feel like you've got the microphone ready and you've got your video camera ready, post the raised hand to join us up here on stage. We're very, very friendly. Even though between the two of us we have as much hair as five people have it. And again, if you can't do video or audio, please just type in the checkbox or type in the question box and we'd like you to hear from us. Chris, you've been a fantastic scholar at the public university. You have at least two great books in the subject. And again, I can't recommend the great mistake enough of Johns Hopkins University Press. You've expertly and with great depth and detail described how public universities, which are about two thirds of American higher education have been suffering financially at the hands of state governments and politics over the past about 40 years right now. And I'm curious, how do you see the COVID pandemic changing that? And do you think state will continue to cut support for students? Are there other completing bases or is there some other transformation you should be anticipating? Yeah, well, states have just been terrible to their colleges and universities.  I mean, there's some exceptions, but not many. And so COVID is another excuse for them to do what they've been doing, which is essentially privatized, right? I mean, that's one of the main subjects of the book is you shifting the cost burden from the taxpayer, which I think is socially just and that the entire society benefits from having a well-educated population to the individual student and their families. And the result being things that we know quite a bit about now, student debt and the damaging of future economic prospects for students by the withdrawing of public money from institutions. So the fact that every state is now having budgetary trouble because of COVID, economic depression, and other costs that COVID is going to impose on everybody means that they can cut higher education again the way they have in the past. So it's a moment of serious danger for the whole system. I don't wanna dive too much into your book, although it's hard to resist. At the end of your book, you have this visionary, visionary conclusion where you call for not just spending more money on public universities, but a re-evaluation and a transvaluation of how we think about higher education. You ask us to think of it as a public common good rather than as a private good. And you wrote this a few years ago. And I wonder in this past year of such political turmoil and the tumult, have you seen anything which indicates that we might be heading in that direction? Yes, well, I'm glad you brought that up because this is also a huge opportunity. And I say that for this reason, so that cuts can't possibly fix this situation. I mean, you can't cut your way out of a massive increase in COVID costs plus a period in which somewhere between 10 and 25% of your state workforce is unemployed. So what it's gonna require is a bailout, which I think should be better conceived of as a reconstruction project. And I'm thinking of this as a third reconstruction, right? We had one that didn't work so well after the Civil War. We had a second one with the Civil Rights Movement in the 50s and 60s in which all sorts of egalitarian principles were being espoused again, right? Where inequality of outcome for black folks, for women were becoming an unacceptable in a way that prompted even mainstream politicians to come up with policy solutions that at least were tried out for a while. We're in another period like that, where the grotesqueness of the inequalities we have both economically and racially and in other ways are no longer, at least for this month and next month, I hope for longer, unacceptable. So we're in a position of going to the federal government and saying, we need to do massive money creation in order to do a massive, first stimulus for both the economy and the university system. And then secondly, I think in over a three to five year period for the quality reconstruction of institutions of health and education, housing and others that we want. So we're basically, we're looking at a new deal to use that overused phrase for higher ed as well as for the environment, for racial justice and for a number of other domains at the same time. To put, let me put this another way. I mean, we're used to having a cue in which higher education is usually in the back of it because state leaders say, well, look, I have unemployed people, I have disabled people, I have homeless people. I need to do something about supporting them and they don't have any financial resources to bring to the table. You students, on the other hand, you do have some money. You can borrow money and you have in many cases, family money.  I think now we're moving into a period where we can see these different social needs as not competitive with each other, but as we're all requiring stimulus and redevelopment at the same time, where helping housing, helping health, helping education are synergistic and that we could come up with a kind of more of a global policy than we've had in the past. You mentioned New Deal and I had to ask, is the Green New Deal one possible framework for this? Yeah, absolutely.  We still don't really know how to make energy-intensive renewable sources on the scale that we want. The solar's become much cheaper in the last 10 or 15 years because China's sort of massive development of it, but there's still a lot of technological research that needs to be done. Another area is what is an organization of large scale, say insulation of, we have what, maybe 20 million dwellings in the United States that need to be insulated basically yesterday. And we have people that don't have jobs. And we can imagine college graduates, non-college folks working together and something like that in a way that would solve a whole bunch of social problems at the same time. One of the things I'm excited about is the possibility of taking the university which has been seen as to one side of the lives of ordinary people. And put it right in the middle of the lives of ordinary people through the solving of practical problems and also providing a workforce that can help implement the solutions that you know, researchers come up with in universities. That's another, I mentioned you had a powerful vision at the end that I can see that you're still inhabiting that space, which is terrific. We've already had a stack of questions starting to come up and I wanted to make sure that we'll have a chance to respond to them. This one's came in here from Greg Stalker, I'll just flash that on the screen. What, oops, I pressed the right button, I don't know. Greg asks, what happens if a few dozen private colleges close the next three to six months? What does higher education react as an industry? We get public money to help private colleges so they don't have to close.    I generally, I would have to be, I would need to see the evidence for that because what I see in small private colleges are folks who, you know, lots of dedicated teachers, students that in some cases have limited options, they're not mobile, you know, they can't go across the state to another place where folks have been doing all sorts of good local work that hasn't achieved financial stability because it's just not well known outside of the region.  Right, I mean, that's a terrible way to deal with this really rich ecosystem that we have of a whole bunch of different kinds of schools that are adapted over decades to their particular kinds of students. So I would like to breach the private public barrier. We already have done it because private universities, including for-profit universities get federally backed student loans, just to take one example. They get also federal research money in billions and billions of dollars. So why not, you know, emergency and where we also have longer term social emergency needs as well, provide federal money to backstop the state sources and put them into schools like Hampshire College and other places that are struggling for no fault of their own. That's a great answer. And you've already wowed some folks in the chat box about this. Let me bring in the other of the major two developments. Now, I think you just made a bridge to that. And then again, I would love to hear what everyone says. Kio, I'm preparing the ground for your question. What about the Black Lives Matter protests? They're a sudden great awakening for racial injustice. What role does that play in terms of public universities now? Well, in addition to the measures that people are now thinking about again, and I mean, it shouldn't have taken the murder of George Floyd to have this in the front of our minds. But, you know, that's how people are.  As we can, I think that the single systemic thing that needs to happen is the equalization of funding across public college and university types. So what we have now is a form of structural racism in which colleges and universities that have the highest proportion of students of color have the lowest per student share of funding by and large coming from their states. So I'm talking about community college, which gets less money per student, talking about regional comprehensive publics, which get less money per student. I'm talking about systems like my own, whether it's Cal State or the University of California, where it's terrible when you actually look at the numbers. Campuses that have a higher share of students of color, often lower income students, often went to poor high schools in the first place with fewer educational opportunities, are at the campuses that are then giving them fewer educational opportunities again, because they have the fewest resources per student. So a simple goal would be that could deal with that version of systemic racism would be to level up, to bring poorer schools that are doing the noble work of taking lower income students, students of color, first gen immigrant students, DACA students that have gotten fewer resources and fixing that, flipping that around, giving them more resources than they've had in their previous parts of the system. It's not, the money isn't everything, you know, I get that, but it's really a lot of it when it comes to education, of bringing people up to speed if they need that, et cetera. And DACA for everyone who might not know the term is deferred action for childhood arrivals, it's going to students who are migrants, we can come back to that and explain more about that later if you want. That's a very ambitious program in the chat folks have compared this to a Marshall plan. Yes, yeah, that's a great analogy. You know, cause when we've had big problems in the past, we've thought big and for the last 40 years, we've had government taken out of the think big picture and it has to be put back in. And the reason for that is that it's really only the government, if you just think of it as a coordinating agency that has the capacity to bring collective wealth, which is what we're talking about with tax money, collective wealth to bear on collective problems.  It may just be a huge shock. Kathleen Fitzpatrick and there are at least three different people with that name who participated in our conversation. So if you're the, and we delight in all three of them, it boggles the mind that dollars per student not equal already the money type of institution. Which is true. It's just that we have such a disorganized, disaggregated system. But I want to make things a little more nervous if I can. And which is to come back to an argument you made in an earlier book on making public university. You referred to, you were subject to calls of connection in the 70s and 80s. It's a big school, rising numbers, particularly in black and Latino students, taking classes as well as a rise in black studies, the Latino studies and so forth. And you see that some states then react to that lead by California by defunding campuses on a personal basis. I mean, if that pattern of behavior is still present, then it seems to me that we should expect an accelerated defunding now, especially when people link black lives matter to the university. Well, I hope as if we just call it racism, which is what it is, that people will be, legislators will have a harder time doing that. I mean, California is a good example so that the chairman of the Board of Regents of the University of California is a man named John Perez. He was the first Latinx speaker of the state assembly. He's the first Latinx chair of the Board of Regents. He's a first or he's a very smart guy. He's also in the sort of Jerry Brown austerity wing of the Democratic Party, at least towards what seems to be the elitist cause of higher education, which I think is a complete misconception about it. And anyway, there's a sense that, you know, other people need the money more for reasons we can go into if you're interested. Anyway, he's a guy who's totally anti-racist as a premise of his career. And yet he has produced a defunding, which is sort of the textbook definition of structural racism, which is as, and I just did a post about this with a chart that makes it really easy to see, as the share of students at the University of California who are white has declined over the last 20 years, the share of state income that goes to the University of California declines in lockstep. It is freakishly exactly proportional to the decline of those two things.  But this would absolutely hate that idea. And so my hope is that as there's, I mean, this is one of those things where you think that knowledge really make a difference is not just about power. Like maybe people are doing the wrong thing just because they're ignorant. So I mean, I'm always hoping that often that is the case. I think this may be one of those cases where someone like John Perez would say, oh, damn, you know, I didn't, I really did not mean to be supporting that pattern. And now I'm not going to. This would be a good time for me to remind folks that there is a, there are links to resources on the bottom left of your screen. You should see a kind of yellow orange button or if this is an excellent, excellent blog you're making at the University. We had a few comments in the chat I just wanted to share. And then we have a really powerful question. Stephen Downs from Canada says that we benefit from social services of the public health and education which demands some of the effects of racism and prejudice. Even so, the pandemic is forcing everything of just how fairly the benefits of society are distributed. Thank you. Thank you for that, Stephen. We have a question from Keele, I'm sorry, Keele Deutch. And Keele, I keep masquerading your last names and you can tell me exactly how to finance that challenge completely. Who has economic questions? So I think you must have a big factor in the higher costs, which is the unjust degree system credential cartel and mandated for years of seat time. Would you support third party credential? Third party, what was the last word? Credential, well, I'll put it down for you. Yeah, it really depends on the, I mean, I would like institutions of higher learning to be credentialed themselves by whatever, crediting agencies or one way of doing it, they're imperfect. I'm not opposed to new entrants and I'm not opposed to the idea that people can accelerate and don't need to sit for three years or four years or whatever it is. I mean, that's quite possible. I just think that that concept has been used as an excuse for shortcuts around learning that we have to look at carefully, but I'm not categorically opposed to that at all. Keele's talking about the opposite end of this. He's not referring to accreditation of individual colleges and universities, he's referring instead to accreditation of students. No, I understand, I just, I changed the subject to, I also want those people to be accredited. Thank you, Keele. If you want to follow up with more, he's right now, can't appear in video, but I appreciate you following that line of thought. George Station, it was not too far here on this and at least on the continental scale, he's at Cal State. The point of the Cal State system has also experienced the same defunding issue that you described as student demographics have changed and there's a good link to a resource there. Well, I have a couple more questions to ask, but then the forum is yours. In fact, can we put this up here? You should see a TLCO box, so if you'd like to join us on stage, your camera and microphone working, you should as well click that button here on stage. Otherwise, if you want to run a topic past me, just type in the question box and I'd love to hear more. One of the questions I had to ask is state governments often go on a key who pays the pipe or calls a team model and I have heard this on Mars as well. Some academic leaders say, well, privatization is good because it gets us out from the government. It's possible if we follow your model, we get a Marshall plan and bring me the other side that expands state and also federal funding, that we might see greater demands for state and our federal control, as things like curriculum, academic quality and so on. How would you negotiate that kind of strings attached phenomenon? Sorry, Brian, I didn't understand the sentence before the strings attached things. Sorry, I'm just saying that if state governments and federal government want to spend more money on this, they might want to control or issue more requests about things in terms of curriculum, student figure of speech, programs, quality, that kind of thing. Yeah, so this is a big cultural issue in the United States.  But that's basically what's happened with, everybody knows how to teach better than teachers. Politicians know better, CEOs know better, Elon Musk certainly knows better how to teach than I do. So where do we draw the line? I'd like to see some real pushback on strings on money that goes into the activities that you're just trusting professionals to know how to do. We can't watch doctors do surgery or have somebody in the room with a patient while they're getting a cancer diagnosis and talking about treatments. And we don't want to do that. And the same is true with teaching. I'm teaching as much more politicized historically in the United States than medicine. But I think the states will do better with community colleges any level of education if they send the money and get out of the way and let people do their jobs. We have enough internal checks. We have enough reviewing going on all the time of everything that all of us do inside of institutions. So it's like, I know this sounds obnoxious, but I think this is actually epistemologically and operationally defensible. Send us the money and leave us alone.  And you can check up on us, but don't micromanage us around either the metrics or the process that gets us there. Wow, that's tricky. It's tricky, but I understand democratic accountability, but we've gone way over on the side of micromanaging and micromanaging of experts by non-experts. And that is more.  And what do you think in our current society supports that? Is it just declining, is it part of our increased emphasis of experts? Is it a kind of frustrated, lowercase deed of a credit desire that national politics doesn't really support or want? Well, it's a 50 year campaign, culture wars is one term for it, of to discredit public sector employees as caring about the quality of their products, right? I mean, it's called, Nancy McLean's written a good book about this with James Buchanan and the public choice movement within economics, that's one piece of this. That essentially the argument was, we'll look teachers and firefighters and all those folks, they're just gain maximizers like you and me. They're just in it for the best salary and the best pension they can possibly get out of you, the taxpayer. So first of all, you've got to be as cheap as possible with them because they're going to screw you otherwise.  And that is totally fundamentally opposed A to my theory of human nature because I think people like to work and like to do a good job. Secondly, it's totally opposed to my personal experience of people, which is that people like to work like to do a good job. I don't know anybody that wants to do a crappy job. I mean, I know people who aren't paid enough. I know people who have four teaching jobs and so they can't spend enough time on any one of them. I know people that are micromanaged and so they can't do their job as well. They can't enact their own personal vision of their job on the job, right? But I just don't know the public choice crisis is a fake, it's a fake crisis and we need to exit that period of mistrust so that we can all just assume that we can, we're all doing the job well enough so we can go actually do our jobs instead of trying to control how other people's are doing their. Well, it's a fascinating problem. I'm really glad you mentioned this. When we think in a K through 12 level, how we have a lower-case key democratic student in the over teaching, especially in public schools. But this is a little different. We've seen some corner veiling discussion in the chart. We had Bill Katz, a fellow Americanist that there's a 200 plus year old tradition of healthy American distrust of expertise. Jessica Surden does ask this question. I agree to push back the professors but I've seen some poor professors who can't do criticism. How do we criticize professors who aren't doing their job if there's no way for them to take it seriously? If there's no way for them to take what seriously? Criticism. Oh, well professors A, they have to take criticism seriously. B, we do. I mean, the professor that does not accept criticism needs to be disciplined by peers. So there's the department peers, there's department chairs, there's deans, there's a whole series of managers who are in fact responsible for maintaining a peer review process. And I also, I don't sound like a, I just think professionals should rule everything. I am a Democrat, small D. I do think that accountability is important. I do think that general public should be able to see into institutions and understand how they're working and see what the real problems are. And I do think that the general public's view about whether we're doing a good job or not is really important. So how do we get these things into combination? How do I hear what you were saying about what I'm doing wrong without you just prescribing solutions that I know aren't gonna work and then enacting metrics that will require me to do things that I think aren't gonna work, right? How do we? So it has to be worse of some kind of a political dialogue that is time consuming and which is, and here's the important point. It's very different from audit culture, public choice, suspicion structure, which is what we have too much of right now. This is an important dynamic. And you're hitting a whole series of key points which is bringing up questions all over the place. And I wanna give some people on their chance to share those. We have Sarah, the senator, who says this week, we're studying Henry Giroux. It tracks in what you're saying about systematic issues around micromanaging instructors. What parts of academia can work to mitigate this? CTLs, admins? To mitigate micromanagement? Yeah. This, I think it's gotta be a cultural shift away from sort of top down and towards more cooperation. And it's also gonna require something that most professors don't love that. Which is kind of pure immersion in long meetings. And while it's like 360 review and it is like you are also being reviewed. And it's just more of the week involved in those kinds of meeting-based discussions. I think we're gonna have to bite the bullet and do that. The alternative is a professional management that is not involved in the teaching, learning, research complex. And therefore just kind of it does audit because it's not there and it doesn't know. I would love to see, for example, the very large student affairs silo that has been developed for good reasons in universities opened up and put into direct connection with the classroom, the laboratory, the library. Because we have a whole parallel educational apparatus and it would be cheaper and it would be less telling you what to do ish if we brought these two groups together and around, for example, we're gonna have to do hybrid courses and we're gonna have to make them good. And there's all sorts of great versions of community-based hybrid learning that universities should be doing more of as a rule. But that requires somebody like me who's good at preparing content but who is not a designer in terms of interfaces and so on, having access to several other people that can really help me with the course and that we would maybe end up doing, performing together as a team. That's the little structural design paradigm. Yeah, and we don't have that now at a public university with limited resources. I just came out of a budget meeting where the campus is planning to cross the board cut of 6.72% and that's just the beginning, that's the floor of the cut. Where are departments that are already, we're already cut 10 years ago and have never recovered from that, going to find $100 to hire even an undergraduate to help me with course design, much less a professional person. Especially if they're thinking in a more conservative way, trying to stick to what they know well must be something to me. Yeah, yeah, so we, A, we need more funding and we haven't even talked about COVID costs and the whole health issue that we're dealing with. B, we need, we are going to make education, instruction delivery and learning more expensive, not cheaper if we do proper online. It does not save money to do it well. It costs money to do well. And it's not only upfront costs, I think it's going to, it's higher permanent costs because you're getting sophisticated teams together with serious sort of complimentary professional skills and they can't just film it and walk away. They have to continuously implement it. I mean, this is another plus thing at, I don't know if we have time to talk about this or not, but I do think COVID is actually an opportunity for educational upgrade. You know, the, the MOOC, the mass scale MOOC wave of 2012 and 2013 was overblown, but it made one really good point, which is that push delivery in large lectures does not work very well. And yet that's the only thing that public universities can afford. So maybe now we can rethink because we have to because COVID is destroying the, the massification paradigm at least for a year or two years, at least for that long, maybe forever. Why don't we take this as an opportunity to demassify for real and then bite the cost bullet and go to the state and go to the federal government and say, everything those guys, those tech folks from Silicon Valley told you about how, you know, zero marginal cost of instruction for millions of students. That was wrong. They, we lied to you or we just didn't know. Now we know that it's going to cost a lot of money but we really want to do this and we know that you want to do it too. We have, this is a great thought and I want to keep the place spinning. There's, there's questions that came up following everything you've said at every point. Questions about change. Mark, how do you put these two up here one after the other because they're really, they're sibling questions. Mark Johnstone at the University of New Haven asks how faculty can be encouraged to work collaboratively better and to collectively improve practice. Mench models you mentioned appear to fund supervisory processes like 360 review, et cetera. So hang on to that question. How do you get faculty to do this? And then at the same time from the Houston edits Tom Haynes asks, how would you operation in a general public understanding the often diffuse outcomes universities produce? So one question is how do you, these are questions about change and how do you get the whole public thinking better about what higher education actually does and then how do you get faculty to work more collaboratively or collectively like that? And those are two massive great questions. Just the, the faculty, the simple answer is buy out their time. Because the single biggest obstacle, I mean, there's all, there's other psychological ones and malformation of professional life and stuff like that. But the biggest one is collaboration means time I don't have being sucked out of basically my private life. So, you know, the way that all of us protect our teaching and our research and our service ratios which are already kind of three jobs in one is by not going to the next meeting, right? Just saying forget it, I can't do that. If that next meeting is about collaborative instruction about redesigning the department's entire curriculum so that it fits together better, which I think in most cases it would be a good thing. Then that time has to be, something else has to be taken away as an obligation and an obligation has to be subtracted. So universities have to be much more creative about relieving that particular burden. And I think folks will show up if they can find the time to do it because we're all worried about our teaching, we're all worried about our students. Then the other, the short answer to that other excellent question is open up the black box. You know, we need people to be able to see what happens in the classroom. How do students learn? How do you, I mean, how do you figure something out? You know, how do I know how to read this sentence that I couldn't read three minutes ago? Or how does that, you know how you're doing a problem set and some equation suddenly falls into place? Yes.  And now you totally get it. We have to talk about that, like what enables that? How, what staffing? What academic labor is involved with that? How it varies from student to student? How students of color have been put in schools where they, you know, in most cases where they haven't gotten the kind of support they need to have more of those moments. I get the college, you know, we have to have the multi-dimensional social version of the conversation about the cognition of instruction and the institutional basis for that. And I think that that will help people get it. We just, we don't, one last piece of this is we're now in a position where the education, sorry, the economic payoff of higher education is more uncertain to put it politely. So the wage premium between college and high school is maintaining itself and growing only because the high school is going down.  And this is not, this is the moment for universities to stop overemphasizing the pecuniary or the monetary benefits, stop selling the BA as primarily a wage benefit and start talking about all these other things involved, you know, personal development, building education for citizenship, education for a post-racist society. You know, the whole range of human capabilities that people get by having these additional four years that are intellectually usually more intense than high school lives. Just two quick notes for everyone. They've got to bring one person up on stage. The wage premium is the difference in lifetime earnings between someone who has a college degree and someone who hasn't gotten one. And the building is a wonderful German term for education, but character creation and more. It's a great term. We don't translate well into English. We have on video Phil Katz coming to us from the Council for Independent Colleges. Phil, how are you doing, sir? I'm good. I hope you can hear me. Yes. Beautiful. And I should say I'm talking for myself today, not for CIC, although I appreciate the Chris's comments earlier about the value of private colleges also as producers of the public good. So I'm listening here and I'm conflicted because I agree with a lot of what you say, but I don't think you're convincing me. What can we say right now to talk about, especially public universities, but also private colleges, about instruments of the public good? I want to push a little further on where you just were. What are the arguments that in this very specific moment where it's so difficult for people to appreciate public goods, what are the arguments that are working? And I don't think the argument that says, we provide building is an argument that's going to make California taxpayers open their pockets more. I only partly agree with that last one. I don't think we've tried it. I don't think we've taken the risk of saying, look, you want your kids to be happy. You want to be happy. You want to be able to think about things accurately. You want them to be able to be in a relationship with people that's not just about arguing conflict. How do you deal with differences? How do you deal with racial, gender, sexuality differences? How do you read a ballot proposition so you know whether you're about to be screwed or not? You want education at this level to do that. So you have K through 12, which is about learning the fundamentals and about learning the basics of knowledge, the processes whereby you acquire knowledge. Then you want this combined pecuniary, non-pecuniary thing. I'll just put it in one sentence, which is the capabilities that allow people to produce knowledge rather than simply consume it, which is also a prerequisite for doing well in the current economy. So it's kind of a two birds one. And that's an argument that we've been trying to make about higher education for years. And I think that it's getting less and less traction. I'm troubled especially at this moment because there's such a divided sense of where public good exists. If we look at the title of the session about COVID and Black Lives Matter, on the one hand, you see a number of the protests about Black Lives Matter, which are a tremendous demonstration of a sense of larger public good, especially the fact that you see such a diversity of protesters. And then you see so many reactions to COVID being a denial of individual contributions to the public good. And so when you compare these two very strong reactions right now of Black Lives Matter protests and folks screaming in the face of Walmart workers because they've been asked to wear a mask to come in. Well, I don't know how we make convincing arguments about colleges being the most important or even an important public good in this very parlous moment. Well, I mean, these are great questions. So I don't at all mean to just come back and act like I, here's the formula. Because you're pointing out that there isn't a formula and we have to grow up our way to a better discourse. So I just want to acknowledge that. The first thing though is I think we can't over focus on the guys screaming in the faces of the Wisconsin state house, the guards, the security people that were there and take them as normative Americans. I mean, we over focus with the very systematic help of the media on a fringe of really primitive selfish individualists that I do not think are very typical even of Trump voters much less of the wider population. I mean, I come from Republicans. So I just know but none of my family is really in that zone. And that's true of my other Republican friends here. But the second thing is you're pointing at it. What I think is a deep cultural and even spiritual crisis in the United States that has been part of our experience as a country really since the end of the Cold War. The Cold War kind of sutured us to this World War II greatest generation defeating the Nazis, understanding of who we really were in spite of slavery, racism, genocide, et cetera, and all the other stuff that's also central part of our history. And we kind of repressed that. And then the great crusade against first, Nazism and then communism is kind of over. And we have this strange period. What is it? Is it really going to be Silicon Valley and high technology? Is it wealth inequality? Is that what the United States is going to devote itself to? Is it, are we a theocracy? I mean, none of the candidates that get the most attention have will do the job. They don't work. So what universities are not doing anymore is putting in a bid for a vision of what the national purposes are, right? It's not just one. And I think when we do that, we'll also be able to explain what the point of college is more easily. When we really re-evaluate that's an idea. Yeah, it would be a version of that. Yeah, but it has to be updated, right? It's not the 19th century. It's not the 1950s. It's not the 1990s, as I never tire of saying, right? So we're gonna, we have to update it in all the ways that this amazing population that we actually have could help us do. Good luck to all of us, I think. Yes. Thank you for the great question. And all the work we do, it's, we have, we're almost out of time. We were just at the end of our minutes and we have time for just about one more question to go. I wanted to bring this one up, because this is a couple, across a few different points. This is an economic question, right? What about the possibility of cutting costs comes to question? Let's see, a few folks, like Keel Drumshin, a few others, have mentioned problems of too much staff or too much administrative, administrative superstructure on campuses, as well as non-academic functions, such as sports, residential domains have been mentioned. And then also a few folks like Stephen Dowings have argued for the possibility of reducing costs in order to make colleges and universities more accessible to everybody, which is a foundational point of public education. What do you, I mean, is this something that we can try? Or are college universities already cut so badly with the bone that it's not possible? Well, I think it's both. I mean, there are certainly things that we could do, but a lot of the serious cost savings are gonna be de-staffing, which just means firing people. I mean, that's the, that's the mind. I mean, that's what the meeting was about that I was just in, you know, or tiptoeing around layoffs, basically. I'm not interested in that. I mean, I'm really, I'm anti-layoff. I'm very pro-refunctioning people. So I wonder if we could cut costs over a five to 10 year period by doing closer collaborations among people that are in these silos. So the example of course designers and professors working together, you know, to do sort of complicated course delivery that would increase learning, that might be one. But we're not spending that much, you know? Spending like 8,000 a year, 10,000 a year per student for tertiary education, it's not a lot, it's not that much. We're not blowing money on instruction. You know, we've adjunctified instruction terribly. We have to dial that back. We have to actually raise costs or instruction by paying people properly and giving them stable jobs. So to have any kind of decent ethics around academic labor, we're gonna spend more money there. One thing that would help is by requiring research sponsors, extramural research sponsors to pay the full cost of doing the actual research is something that I talked about in the book. What's happening now is between 20 and 25 cents of every dollar of research expenditure is being supported by either state taxpayers or student tuition. So some of the money that students would put directly into their own classrooms and that would allow for non-tenure track people to be tenure track people or to get paid a proper salary instead of a per course charge of costs like three or $4,000 is going into research subsidy because research is expensive and universities don't have other sources and the sponsors are not paying the proper amount. So there's those kinds of, it's a holistic kind of package that we have to do. There isn't gonna be one thing. The place where I just, I do not think we should start by cutting the workforce. I think we should start with restructuring the business model so that the outside beneficiaries pay something closer to the full cost of what they're getting back. That would be a very difficult one for D.D. Yeah, it's a big political lift for sure. We have more questions coming in. And we'll talk about it. Oh, thank you. Thank you very much. And I appreciate it. Pardon me, I have to see you in the back, everybody. What's the best way to keep up with you and your work? Is it here? Can you see anything? Or your wonderful new growth effort? Brian, I think what you're asking, bad sound is a venue for contact. So the blog I think is a good place to start. It's remaking the university. It's a blog spot blog. It's pretty easy to find. People are welcome to email me at the English department at UCSB. If you have particular issues you'd like to pursue. I will root through the chaos of my inbox and find you. I'm happy to continue this conversation. I'm really glad that I'm grateful to you, Brian, for bringing the people together like this and so regularly. First of all, Chris, thank you for driving this conversation. And second, my thanks to the wonderful community here. Brilliant, brilliant folks who've been asking fantastic questions. This is a wonderful community that I'm just delighted to be a part of. We have to let you go back to your work. But let me wish you all best in trying to keep your UC. Going through this incredibly stressful time. And let me wish you all best luck in your move across the country and across the Atlantic. Thank you, Brian. And thanks, everybody. I look forward to the next time. So do we. So do we. Don't go, friends. I just want to point out a couple more things. And for coming up for the next few weeks. First of all, we're continuing a whole series of topics. Black Lives Matter and anti-racism and higher education. We're going to try to have more extra sessions about that. So if you want to reach out to me for suggested speakers, please do. We have fall 2020 planning with all kinds of issues improving teaching and how to do live video. Well, we also continue to have these conversations go on social media, Twitter using the hashtag FTTE, but also our groups on LinkedIn, Slack and Facebook. So we'd love to hear from you there. Our archive continues to grow. We have 213 videos there now. So if you'd like to dive back into our great conversations, including Chris's first appearance, please do. And in the meantime, thank you again for all of your thoughts, your conversation. This has been a really, really rich discussion. I really appreciate it. Thank you all. Stay safe. See you online. Bye-bye.