I have to duck out at 7.30 for a class. I did not know I would have it 7.30 tonight. So, apologies for that. Okay, so we'll kick this off. Is Susie coming in? Do you know if you want to see her? She's going to be late now. Okay, so I have 7.05. I'll call the meeting to order. I'll punch you to the agenda. First item of business is welcome to our new board member. So, a pleasure saying you. And it's also a pleasure hearing from you. Any comments from the public? Not at the moment, but we'll see what happens. Okay, that was your chance. That is true. Not having any comments at this time, push forward. I wanted to try and clean up a bunch of the outstanding minutes that we've previously approved and that we need to sign. So, uh, I believe Tracy has some things for myself and Cynthia to sign. Do I have to sign the agenda, too? No, that's the one that's just a little bit of a lot of business. That's not it. So, I think that means a field stop. So, do I have a motion to approve this tonight's meeting minutes for men? Second. Yeah, second. Sorry, I think I cut up. All in favor? Fine. Okay, tonight's minutes for last night or for last meeting for tonight. Can we sign that? Let's sign those. Okay, so having dispensed with all that and because of Catherine's short time with this tonight, I wanted to try and get the board officer elections out in front of the group so we can figure out who our officers are going to be going forward. I know for sure we said we would be voting on a chair and a vice chair. Tracy is going to be our secretary so you win the election. And as last I recall, the friends of the library liaison was up for discussion. So, let's start with the big one. Do we have a volunteer or a nomination for chairman of this group? All in favor? Bye. Thank you. Congratulations, madam chairman. Vice chair. Do we have a volunteer? A volunteer. Second and approved. Okay, so we have a vice chair. So the last one is friends of the library liaison. When are those meetings? I'm glad that it uses you. No, it's good, that's all. Okay, we have a volunteer for a liaison. She asked when the meetings were, somebody did. I was wondering when those meetings are, I guess.  I was just curious. Sorry, if I'm holding anything up. You're not holding anything up. So they're every month, I think you're the third Wednesday? Remember when I was writing for the fourth Wednesday? Third Wednesday of the month. So we had some discussion last meeting about whether to continue every... Why don't you just review that for real? Yeah, I believe, Rihanna, that the questions were raised. Is it valuable for us to continue going to every meeting? And then Mark raised the point that in the past the board liaison had voting privileges and so that was another point of clarification that I don't think we have reached out to receive clarity on yet. So previous to this year, I believe the liaison went weekly, this year we tried switching off, which was only moderately successful. So it could change in the future. And the previous board I was on, we had a backup in case the main person couldn't make it too, so could you try that instead? Okay, you're cutting out from time to time, Rihanna, so... Yeah, I think all good. My question was answered. Thank you. Okay, so we have a volunteer and if that motion carries, then we have a liaison and if you find that, you know, you can't make it then just let us know and we'll see if we can find somebody else for a month or whatever. Okay. Is that fair? I don't anticipate that being a problem. Okay, great. Okay, I think that got through my big issues. So, John, I'll turn it over to you. Do you have things for us tonight and can you also discuss the book's order in a methamphetamine issue while you have this order? Yeah, so the book's order is fully installed and operational. In fact, for those of us here at some point, we can go take a look at it if you want and kind of see how it works. It's kind of cool. So, we can kind of cross that off our list now finally. Got installed, had very two minor glitches with it that stopped operations of the sorter for like all of a half a day. So, it's working great. It's helping with efficiencies for sure as far as getting materials in and because of the way it sorts, it puts them in these right categories to make it much faster to shell. So, very happy about that. In methamphetamine news, everyone's favorite topic, we just sent out to staff I think last week or so. So, then Boulder County Public Health put out some information on testing and what it means in public spaces versus residential spaces and kind of adding, not kind of, but actually adding clarity to all that's going on in this, which I think was much needed. I think I had mentioned at the last meeting we did hear some rapid tests that the city has that they use in the housing authority as a determining factor to see if they need to take next steps either in testing or remediation. And so, we did that here and all the rest, we did the restrooms because that's where it happens and all that came back negative. We haven't had any other cases since. We have protocols in place so if we suspect any illegal drug use, we close the restroom right away and clean it and that's what the Boulder County Health recommends and really nothing further after that except for the public to continue to be conscientious and wash your hands and you know all that kind of stuff. Yes. I unfortunately have a little experience with this based on a residential thing that happened to me when I was trying to buy a house and we had meth contamination come up so one thing that where they found it was in the air ducts. So, I'm just curious if you ever had the ducts tested or if you are aware of the city has ever had, not you personally but. Yeah, so as far as the ducts, so I did have a meeting with our director of facilities here, Jeff and I did and I asked those questions particularly because that's what happened at Boulder Public and the way this building is structured is not the same. So, the restroom exhaust fans just blow all the air out right and our intake they're not it's so it's not connected to the HVAC system at all for one thing and then the HVAC system for the building is on the other side of the roof.  That's great. Yeah, so we don't I don't think we have that same concern that happened in Boulder and certainly residences is different as well and in fact that's what the Boulder County Health reported was resident that the whole all these testing protocols were designed for residences and and actually developed for a toddler who was exposed to meth 24 hours a day and so to use those in a public space actually doesn't make sense. They would have to come up, someone would have to come up with just different testing protocols so it's highly unlikely that any we've ever experienced that here but we did the rapid test anyway just in case because we had a case or two where we thought someone might have done something. So that information is out, I've shared it with staff and made it available in case anyone from the public were to ask you know what what's going on and so we can hand that out it's kind of like an FAQ a bunch of counties have been doing this. Ultimately what they're saying is this isn't a major public health crisis it's actually very low risk to have exposure in a public restroom and and that's for me that's good to get that information out and to maybe start downplaying a little bit of the hype that's kind of come up about it and and this kind of sense of extreme risk that probably isn't there at least according to the health experts. So do you think Boulder Road reacted? I don't think Boulder Public did because their building actually did get take it in into their air ducts and they tested that and it was in the air so it was coming into the library but that's why I asked our facilities here if we would be in that same situation and they said no. They also reported that there was a new cabinet right next to where the intake was which had to be shot. Not to mention that the use that they discovered in catching people in the act was rampant like a lot in a day so you know not a one off here or there. And they had complaints too. Staff were feeling sick and dizzy and all kinds of stuff. So I don't think Boulder Public overreacted at all. I think they did create a sense of height John's opinion and some of these other libraries you've heard about I believe pre-emptively tested and then ended up shutting down on protocols that weren't designed for a public space. So I feel pretty good for long long. It sounds like the drug you see well do see in the bathrooms is more of a one-off then. It's a one-off here and at the end of the day the one or two that we we found basically the after effects and you know it's like foil and ashes. We kind of assumed that probably that's what it was but actually it could have been another drug. You know it could have been fentanyl it could have been anything. There was a lot of things that smoked. So whether it was meth or not we still don't know except for the rapid test that we did which all threw back negative. So with any luck we'll talk about this lesson lesson. You haven't seen a rise in the incident of patrons that have been distressed as you know the sacred distressed or the influence of drugs. You haven't seen a rise or a change in behavior or anything like that. I mean really the our our day-to-day is still the same. Occasionally I have incidents of various things you know that could be one of them but we certainly are paying attention to that one. It's just been those more or two times. Okay. Did you have any new items for us? No. Okay. I should apologize to you. Do you want to run this now that you're here? I am happy to. Next. Very good. Friends of the library report. Do you have anything from the French group? They both have their retreat. Yeah. I mean Jamie and I were at the retreat last night. They were longer than I was. Yeah. They had their I think it's an annual retreat and talked about kind of the year ahead and doing some planning and strategic planning and one of those is happening tonight with one of the first of four book sales throughout the year to raise money obviously. So but they I'm trying to think what else what else was discussed. There was a lot of what one might do at the beginning of the year retreat in terms of goal setting and reviewing priorities and you know it for the brief time that I was there and kind of listening to the discussion it struck me as a group that is trying to kind of step into a new a new age a new era kind of modernize and codify some of the things that they're doing document things clarify you know whose roles are what so cleaning up all of their organizational stuff and looking how to be more effective it did come up and it's come up in personal conversations with Prudence the president you know just wanting to continue to work on improving relations with library staff and there's other volunteers I guess at the library is this there's some tension between the people who volunteer in the bookshop and the people who do other things who may work on the sales and we should all be one half a panel and that sort of so yeah and a lot of talk with individual members of that board thinking I had wanted to do legacy planning of what we do in a couple of years when we can no longer do what we're doing and how to relieve you know whatever it is the sales organizing or the sorting or they were talking about like different places maybe to sort books or store books or what don't we do next okay great um nothing else on the friends I'll move along um Susie do you have anything for us um just a couple of just dates um so we didn't have the rest of our annual legislative year the last time I think we had one that wasn't able to attend the other was during virtually and then the third one had to be early so sorry so we rescheduled um so the dinner will be Friday March 3rd from six to eight the end of the senior center it is open to the public so if anybody wanted to to attend um some of the topics that we put on the agenda to discuss the 2023 legislative initiatives law enforcement reforms mental health housing affordability hope for the unhoused preschool climate crisis oil and gas and it's pretty much everything uh workers compensation forest fire insurance coverage um and then um you know with single-use plastics yeah so there's a few other few other items to to discuss and then I believe that there is a time for public invited to be heard so if you want to uh public comment at the end you are welcome to to attend um we did set our retreat agenda for March 10th and 11th it's a two day the first day Friday morning we'll be actually doing a lot of um conflict management guide looking at guidelines on social media as far as council members what's appropriate what's uh what's professional courageous conversation training um and then pretty much I believe the only shift is rather than lunch meeting at 12 30 I know we kept it at 12 30 so that after in the afternoon that's when we're really going to be talking about uh you know city city issues surveys you know public input the next day we'll be looking at our vision and work plan and setting our goals for the second day we'll have more you wanted to appear with um as far as our goals and um what our priorities are for the next year the second day I think has more topics to be discussed so will there be any time when the the agenda you believe to talk about the proposed cultural tax initiative is still does that make it to your so I've seen so like that we were looking at the employee survey we what staff what does staff need from council satisfaction survey um it sounds like as we're looking at our roadmaps there's opportunity to to bring in those things because I know on council we have a lot of questions opportunity at this retreat or hopefully we get we get we are able to hear before then I thought so it'll be around the same time so I'm sorry Suzy I couldn't hear you there when you turned away oh so here are you maybe I'll bring this closer the long day kind of mattery um you know there might be opportunity for us to discuss in here if we haven't heard from it at council beforehand but I do yeah I do want something to come back to us I was looking at the timeline that you all sent and I believe it wasn't there a march early March so I my my interpretation was that it was going to come to us at a city council meeting in the month of March oh would you agree with that show okay okay for anything else for us we are going to we think how we're going to distribute the ronko money for the stadium um you know we had some heated conversations yesterday where you all were reading it's in the news you know I told you I'm a district negotiator I don't know I can be patient until a period of time and yeah so I just I I was not happy with how the process was initiated to begin with I think there should have been something stipulated beforehand rather than people were starting to throw in their resolutions and ideas of the way you know time out so yep we're gonna try again is there a deadline where you have to make it this final I I know we're gonna have to report out next year of what we use the money for so so I missed the discussion but it was my understanding that because it was a one-time benefit you were target the council was targeting one-time expenses yeah something that would only yeah require one-time expense so if we're looking at funding programs you know once the money's gone those programs will go and fund it sure so and then how again I'm sorry for missing no no no no how was the priority set up for which ones get picked and which ones don't so that's where so I had brought up an idea of rather than having council decide because the other thing was weird once they started presenting on you know supporting the youth center and you're having the money allocated for the dome um it just felt weird as I'm presenting I'm like wait a minute I feel like that I shouldn't vote on this if I have my seat in the game then I shouldn't vote on that jacquita shouldn't vote on it Tim shouldn't vote you know so then it's so that's where I was like this is this is a weird this is a weird process this isn't working we're going to have to rethink the proposal I brought and we're gonna we're tabling it until the mayor comes back with what she heard from the state of district liaison is that we carve out 200,000 that would go towards non-profits who apply and then the rest of the money really I would like I would like to see it go to children's but or just hand it back to staff and find the appropriate because they're they're the ones that are out there you know with the public with the one with the kids with especially youth camps or youth center they're the ones who are who are in the trenches with that it's a weird to hear so I mean that was initially what I was thinking of before you know people start throwing in their resolutions and all that and I was like okay okay I gotta act now otherwise you know if I don't say anything so we're gonna try again so so does council come up with the ideas or does city staff present the ideas in council on that you guys rank for how to spend the money no there was no process other than what the mayors had said okay well we had council member yoverland myself who had the idea for allocating it for space for the youth center and or recreation and for dual purpose in that regard and then council member waters have the resolution for the extension of the children's system okay well you can probably read where my head's going this is like where he had it I yeah well single shovel ready projects well and that's so initially what I thought well what I thought was that we were not going to select any one department because then it fits one department over the other and then as we were digging in and looking you know for the facility you know first a one time so then we're told that you know the other thing we were told was that we cannot use it for capital improvement so that would make the most sense so then that's one time is since it's one time so that's where you know my head was just like I'm giving up yeah so then then it was okay well we'll just do it together children do the bandwidth I'm done I'm done but no I I I hear you I hear you well I mean that I mean we've addressed the sorter so so that's water well and I think for me I mean what we were looking at well the first round that it the first time it came back to us we were told or it was under the assumption that it was supposed to go to something athletic so some kind of sports or recreation sports or something to that degree so movements without fitness chess what new chess story time yeah yeah so um so then you know we were thinking along okay how can we address that need but really it was targeting what we wanted to do is target and this I'm talking about I also remember Yarbaugh and myself are targeting the kids who are maybe on the cuss of getting involved with gang activity criminal activity the ones that are not engaged in school but if we are able to expand the youth center and bring especially with if we had it near Timberline getting some of those kids engaged and seeing having them be exposed to your healthy role models healthy adult role models and that's that was what we kind of envisioned is really targeting the need is we're seeing an increased number of kids and I work at a title in school and I see it with former students with my students kid over siblings and parents it's just that involvement with you know pre gang activity criminal activity you know and we're seeing a rise in the community so what what can we do that is proactive so that's kind of where my mind was going with this and then I don't know just kind of everything's about that out of control I think we're all with good intentions but it's time to take it back to the dry board okay well I know you'll you'll cite her on good I would just recommend that maybe the library has a program that fits everything you said that yeah can be a single use expense don't disagree staff have not been asked well again with without having seen the debate I feel like I'm probably misinformed but it just seems from listening to you talk that there's not a real good process in front of you all to weigh in on no what I ended up doing is I conducted a really quick impromptu survey that targeted educators in the district well my former students everything that I had an infinite campus I just pulled up grabbed emails that was you know over 500 and you were shot shot those out shot out to our union members to children's youth and families of the youth council was engaged in that process so it was really ideally what we were targeting was students okay unless you have something else for you know yeah I'm not sure who could turn this next one over to you Jeff or are you going to talk about the city's cultural recreation I'll start John and jump in as as he can so in your packet was the timeline that staff have developed for the tax initiative with the next big thing occurring is the polling city has the council has appropriated up to forty thousand dollars to create a survey that will be statistically valid so we aren't ever everybody in this room is not going to get emailed the survey so we can't just go online or ask people to go online because we want it to be valid and really represent the broader community in their opinion on the different questions so the two of the city assistant city managers and Becky Doyle are finalizing the polling questions city council had the opportunity to look at those questions but because of the timing issue none of the boards have been asked or given the opportunity to look at those questions it's well from what John and I were told last that that survey should be going out soon with the results to be presented back to council in March so so the boards will not be asked will be because of the timing and needing to get it turned around once that information has been provided to council John and I and Tracy will provide that the survey results you just as soon as we can if you want I based on what feedback John and I have been given I can kind of share a kind of how it relates to the library if you're interested in so just as a reminder included in the tax initiative right now is 22.7 million dollars for thirty thousand square foot branch library as well as a little over three million dollars for operating of that branch library that includes all costs to operate it as well as a capital replacement fund so that as things in the branch would need to be replaced there is a resource to have money to do that work right now within the city system we do not have that type of funding source and at times I believe it puts us behind as it relates to being able to maintain our facility so that is included again it's a statistically valid survey should be going out soon included in that survey there are questions about often do you use the 12 facilities the library being one of those recreation museum golf and the youth center in there it asks specifically about the library at least the draft does I don't want to get ahead of myself and say this is final but the last draft that I did see would include what the property tax would increase and what sales tax would increase to help cover the operation and just ballparking it just to give you kind of an idea is the property tax would go up approximately $38 a year for a home that's valued at $500,000 and sales tax would increase by 11 cents on $100 of taxable purchases it also asked that same question about museum about recreation about about the park enhancements again that information will be collected over the the next month and presented to council and again we'll get that information to you as soon as it is available well thanks for sharing that so you can't because I was a little slow in hearing all the reports you were making I just want to kind of go through what I thought I heard so did you say well first of all from an overall perspective the survey as it relates to the library identifies all this all these things that you're you're asking the public to weigh in okay and then did you say 22 million there's a capital budget for the branch 22.7 for the for the branch for the branch library and does the initiative have other capital not for the funding for the library just for the branch just the branch at a near so I think I know where you're going at a well I don't know where I'm going so what because it's only the one branch there are things in motion that John and I are working on for the budget process to ask for the funding for a store storefront library as well which would be separate from this initiative because based on on the study it recommended both a branch a large branch library and a storefront so John and I are working incidentally the folder is just moving forward on their their board library branch that made paper today John and I talked about that branch and what we'll probably go over and visit that yeah so so then in terms of what you're asking the public to weigh in on can you comment as to what level of service you're trying to fund remember there's a preferred level of service and baseline level of service is any of that that is not in these numbers this is specifically about capital capital and operational dollars to operate the branch which would move us towards the preferred level but it does not get us to top one percent it was it was one component of the preferred level so there's there's that other aspect if I may to the feasibility study that really hasn't been baked into anything going to the voter or do you think it will or do you think I don't believe it will what John and I have talked in please John jump in is trying to address that some of that with a first phase proposal in request excuse me request for the 24 budget so these things would be done in conjunction we really want to have the storefront in that request so that we we have an alternative if the tax initiative would fail okay well I I think it's great that the city's embracing the concept of a branch in the storefront yeah to me half of the message from the feasibility studies in terms of what needs to be done here in terms of staffing facilities stuff like that and somehow on all this I would hope that that gets in place and addressed I mean there's a lot of money being pushed around those short and and I think as we're moving forward in this process and we're trying to define what would be in a branch library that it would provide opportunity that maybe doesn't have to be at the main library which then could result in us restructuring what happens here so that we're trying to provide a wide variety of library experiences across our community that's fair I mean that's a that's a fair response in my mind it's just understanding what that all is and because there are deficiencies here in terms of programming staffing facilities maintenance stuff like that that I think yeah and those are all things we will be reporting back to you as we start getting ready for the 24 process and those yeah they need to be brought forward because I think in many times in the past we weren't hearing that it was articulated to city you know the powers that be us that that was a need yeah so that was also very frustrating it's like you hear these side conversations but once it came to officially you know making that request it wasn't happening yeah well thank you all guess I request this here thank you good I mean that's okay my supertivity is pretty sick of me so well I appreciate the support you just put in to be the fact excuse me that the boards don't get to weigh in then kind of shields the public from those issues that unless the city did somehow figures out how to put them back in front of the public to weigh in on they just won't get addressed but I and yes I agree with that I I guess my response would be is after this the polling results are are back I think that will educate the city on what really should move forward or maybe it doesn't move forward in the tax initiative and again that's based on direction from council and then based on that direction will include boards in the community involvement processes attending different community events to get word out and gather information that sort of thing so I there will be a time and I and I think soon that the board will have more of an active role in that once the the polling is done okay I'm kind of stepping once in these toes a little bit here but you had mentioned last time that maybe we should get Becky Doyle in to talk to the group I wanted to present this information as a future and we can certainly do that I will also share that in the meetings when John and I are there we're sharing the board's point of view with the main thing that we're trying to represent is your interest in having dedicated taxes that are committed to the library I don't I can't really respond on because there's no decision or no direction that's been given but I will assure you all that we are sharing that message often as much as we can well thank you for that because there's really nothing I could want to say it's being protected I mean you've targeted some money right but I mean that can go away over time you know whatever so I mean it's how how do we manage it so the library is protected and I and you've heard that message yeah I think you know where our heads are at uh again I'll kind of since I'm monopolizing the conversation there I'll throw one more out on the paper I've seen some stuff in the paper where where the city is I want to say struggling but but trying to figure out how to move forward on a bunch of initiatives it already has because of inflation inflation impact do you see that impacting what you're trying to do here was a cultural initiative do you think this is good money or do you think it needs to be more or do you think it's going to get superseded by the emergencies of the day so this will be for the exit meaning if we go to a vote can this money be used for something different well meaning that there's so much attention to not being able to do the things you've already proved that that somehow this this gets superseded is all right that's probably a question for susie more do you want me to take another shot at clarify what I'm I'm thinking so I'm trying to figure out what you're so are you saying that in due to the you know inflation and the cost to build that branch library exceeds is that what you're talking about not not exactly where where my head was at was that if the if the city is struggling now with the money it's allocated for these projects because it's not enough yeah to try and overcome that gap so to speak they're going to try and find money to complete those projects and buy by by putting that demand back on the community plus this demand for additional monies on the community so somehow kill what you're trying to do hearing you know something is to go another initiative was to go on the ballot yes to cover the water you know the all the water repairs the Nelson blingers and what was the other one that was a price part that exceeded the cost of exceeding what was um anticipated um well one you cannot use the money the voters voted on this that money cannot be used to to it's more it's more political capital thing if the voters have to pony up a little bit more for what's already been approved will they pony up for this initiative this does this initiative go away for a while in effort to i that's not my understanding and i would not prove that in a better way than i know i wouldn't i have not heard that i have not heard that okay the but to respond to something else you did say mark is the amount of money that we have you know that we estimated that projects cost um that was done last fall and john and i have uh made a flight yeah and we've we made a suggestion that based on being six months later and knowing what we're seeing in costs uh for current projects do we need to revisit our estimates to make sure we're not setting the city up for a whole another set of issues that they're facing with the current projects that's that's my question i was involved in the uh capital project for me to have a high school building for the shining that water school and just because everything takes so long with getting more permitting and blah blah blah before we even work on on that building the costs had skyrocketed and the more COVID had come in and all of these other contributing factors to inflation but now we were looking at having another huge gap to uh to to reach so that would be a concern of my you know what is the contingency it's like all about contingency plans in the yes you know even thinking about the initiative if that doesn't go as favorably for the library as we would like what's planned yeah you know what are the alternative funding structures that we want for the next yeah but yeah because it's even well i mean it's all fair and it's a taxpayer i i think you can appreciate if if the number hits too big it's just not going to go and there we go right but as this group who has a goal right it's like we've got to be ready to pivot to like all right well that was a great idea didn't go the way we wanted to i can't wait to see how you guys do that well i i think i've monopolized enough time here do you all have questions you want to get in front of jeff or john on this before it's just to clarify and my understanding is frankly that a lot of things are still up for possible changes based on the pulling results in july is when that will be finalized yeah because council has to set the ordinances in august and that one thing that brought up a something i was talking about last month city council sets the ordinances and sets the valid questions it does not have to go to a fuller count so one other question i thought like this is a smaller part these is my understanding from what you just said is if this plan moves forward there would be requests for a large budget increases can you all remind us of what the schedule for a budget is in the city um capital improvement projects generally staff make our requests in april for the general fund which would be the operating dollars for the library that is done in may that usually shuts off the system shuts off right around the 31st of may and depends on when that weekend falls but that that's our timeline of those are the only time we can really make requests for point four we see what is proposed in late august when the city manager is required to submit a budget to city council will you be able to share that with this group before the city weighs in let me try that a different way so in april and may i don't want to supersede your conversations with your your fellow staff members but just be nice at the beginning of the process you know what you're trying to ask for so whatever political weight this group apply to help you would like to do that yeah so based on that schedule we should probably plan on talking about the capital improvement the capital side of it at the march meeting and then the general fund budget at the april i think that's that's great is it possible that the outcome of this polling um would inform what you asked for i think you will help help drive that yeah i don't i don't assume this is going to happen but if the community comes back with or the polling comes back with we don't want any of this stuff that that really sets a different standard i don't think that's what's going to happen because i think our community is pretty supportive of libraries and museum and recreation and often are asking what not why are you doing it but why aren't you doing it more and i i hope that's what comes out of the polling but if it doesn't then that's john's going to need two pencils to put down all the needs so to like really distill it to the very basic essence the polling is to test the receptivity of the community to this idea of an increase in taxes yes and and the question and i'm sorry i didn't finalize this comment or thought is that it does it talks about what the question is how likely you are to vote for increased taxes specific to the library and recreation they're all separate questions any other questions riana do you have any questions to get out on the table not on this one okay i had just a couple uh i guess in closing so this this uh timeline or whatever is it the two city managers and becky that are spearheading this whole effort they're the leaders of it okay and then um do you see a more detailed chart or something coming up uh this is pretty broad brush yeah i think it has to because you know august is brushing at this just inquiring yes want to go yeah i was just happy to get this because it was a start it's a good start it's a good start you know i was so sure yeah it's a good switch so um yeah so i i guess what i would just kind of in closing at least from staff side um let's see how the polling results go next month and then we can identify whether we need to invent invite becky i throw out to our and that's a tour meeting that's all right okay i'll leave that up to same year okay unless there are additional questions on this one i don't really want um long want library district committee i don't have anything to report out on this does anybody from the public have anything to report out on this no still available waiting on you guys okay um i didn't uh put it on this agenda but i probably should have under new wagons uh we had talked about this a little last time so it's not completely new but um i think jeff brought up the fact that the board hadn't approved new bylaws since 16 i don't know if you said 16 or not but i check was 2016 so uh that probably should be something that the group should then back going forward what if any of those new bylaw should um capsules um with that uh i don't have anything additional does anybody else have anything additional they want to put on this table for discussion no no no i'm seeing any um any comments from any of the board members on anything no you're looking to update your bylaws we just did that with our union bylaws three months and super bowl of six and six more hours to hurry up and get them all out it is a grueling process boards are a little easier okay yeah it was intense all right well that's uh good advice so we'll see how it goes um so with that uh i will um put out the next month uh meeting date is march 20th and with that i will close the meetings at eight oh three thank you everyone


Hey Psych2Goers, welcome back to another video. Do you get along with your sibling? Do they treat you well or do they take advantage of you?  Sometimes it can be hard to tell if your sibling is just teasing and playful or abusive and manipulative. So here are eight signs you have a toxic sibling. 1. They don't respect your boundaries. Is your sibling always asking you for more help than you can give? Siblings who don't respect your boundaries, who expect you to save them or take the fall whenever they did something wrong, are toxic for your mental health. They don't care about what's going on in your life so long as you're around to help them with theirs. They have no problem abusing your kindness and love for them. 2. They make you feel anxious. Whether it's because of their unpredictable emotions or relentless judgments of you, you can't help but feel anxious at the thought of seeing them. You know it's not going to end well when you spend time with them, so you avoid them as much as you can. You dread family gatherings and holidays and you're always in a hurry to leave once they arrive. Their presence makes you feel nervous, uncomfortable, and on edge. 3. They're exhausting to be around. Another sign your sibling is toxic for you is if they're emotionally draining to be around. Every conversation with them always leaves you exhausted.   4. You have an unhealthy rivalry with them. Does your sibling make you feel like you have to prove your worth to them? Even though rivalries are common especially when your kids, unhealthy feuds that extend until adulthood can cause serious damage to your mental health, it's a sign when they won't respect you unless you outdo them in some way. They undermine all your accomplishments and try to outshine you every chance they get. 5. They manipulate you. Toxic people are masters of emotional manipulation. It's worse especially when you have a toxic sibling since they know a lot of intimate details about you. They may try to control you by guilt-tripping you, giving you the cold shoulder, or making you feel sorry for them.  6. They constantly criticize you. Is your sibling always the first to call you out when you mess up? Even if they say it comes from a place of love, you know they're rooting against you. They're always putting you down to make themselves look better. They give you backhanded compliments, pray on your insecurities, and criticize every little thing about you. No matter how successful, wealthy, or well liked you become, they always find a way to tear you down. 7. They blame you for everything. Are you always blamed for things you didn't do? Toxic siblings never take responsibility for their own actions.  They constantly play the victim and make you out to be the bad guy. In their eyes, they can do no wrong, and you are always at fault. 8. They've left a lot of damage in your life. Finally, your sibling is toxic if they've left a lot of damage in your life they can't undo. Maybe they'd hurt your chances at success, or held you back from your dreams.  Whatever the reason, they don't show any remorse for the pain they've caused, and they don't seem to care about how it's affected your life. 9. Do you think you have a toxic sibling in your life? Remember to like and share this video with those who might benefit from it. If you're interested in learning about different toxic family relationships, Psych2Go has videos on toxic father-daughter relationships, toxic mother-daughter relationships, and others on our YouTube channel. Subscribe to Psych2Go for more psychology content. Thanks for watching, until next time.


I found MIC in 2020, June. Best decision of my life so far. And I've been an MIC member for a year. The best decision of my life. That's awesome man. My name is Jack. I trade large caps. Oh so you travel far too? Yeah, 6 hours drive. Left house at 2 am. Yeah but thank you so much for the speed up. I've been a member for 2 months. Seattle area. Yeah so your driving video is what made me decide to join. Yes I'm with the next gents over here. Tell us about your group. Yeah absolutely. So all these young guys right here were the next-gen traders. We're all under 20 but I've been with MIC for about 8 months now, joined in May and never looked back. That's the power of the club man.  It's huge man. This is why we did this. Yeah I mean half these guys just met them in MIC. Brother I haven't met half my moderators in person. But when we do we're best friends right? Yeah. That's how it goes man. That's how it goes. These guys are like barbecuing. This morning they were like hiking. They went to the Hollywood sign. Obviously everybody here knows how amazing MIC is but you know United messed up my flight. Bow here. They paid for my hotel for Thursday night for no reason. Just offered it. So that's like it has nothing to do with me but it's just that is what MIC is about and it means so much. Just caring about the members and putting people first. We need an over 40 plus. Where's the old kids? We're all old. I like to shot on top and call on a break out. Where are you from? I'm from Vietnam originally. I swim over here. I'm just kidding. We've all been through dark times and I could relay a lot to that. Thank you. Thank you guys. Cool man. You're on your way buddy. So that's exactly it. So look around guys and don't be discouraged because you know what man. The thing that I want you guys to take away today. This is the most important thing that I learned in my life. Anything. Guys it's you versus you.  Anybody can make money. They can post huge. You guys have to understand man. You're not versus Alex. Alex is not versus me. Look when Samuel looks in the mirror Samuel needs to say how can I be better than I was yesterday.   It's in here. If you think you can't do it you can't. You think you can do it you can't. But that's what he was saying.  I don't care what you look like. He could be the best trader of five years right now. Yeah. Would you assume that maybe not? Maybe not. Look if you have this perceived notion of maybe it looks like Alex got a big old beard. He's going to trade it. There's no prerequisites except just be better and be humble. We're just people man. We're just doing the best we can with what we're given right. Just click buttons. We got to have a work ethic. Cut the loss. Cut the loss man. Obviously we can go through the technicals and stuff but at the end of the day man you got to believe in yourself.  They're blinders right. To you versus you that's it. One last thing I want to say is to treat it like a business man. If you want to make more money than a doctor. Work dude. You got to work for it. What's the videos? You got to work for it. This is not easy bro. It's not meant to be easy.  I thought you do have an island. But that's the thing guys. Treat it like a business. When I first started I treated it like a business. If you treat it like the casino it will be the casino right.  You can't make money doing that. So treat it like a business. Take it seriously. But the good thing is everyone here has already been through the downs. So talk about it. See what you guys could do to improve on it and enjoy yourselves. And if you haven't been through the downs yet we have man. We've been through the deepest, darkest pits of despair, depression, anxiety, P&L's. Learn from our structure. That's the point. The watch list. The curriculum. If you need help getting started. I'm your guy to help you get started because I- This is way bad bro. What's going on eBay? Thank you. Thank you man. I feel like I'm meeting rock stars. I'm extremely shy so for me to come up here right now I just need to do it now. I actually used to help run the National Space Defense Center. I actually left the government after 22 years because I fell in love with trading and I really can't thank all of you enough because the comments that you have on the website and after joining MIC I found my passion after doing defense for so long. I never thought that I'd be going in this direction.  I even brought my daughter here. She knows what her favorite is low-hanging fruit. You know I just really feel like this is a family and for me to come all the way out here like this I hope that speak volume because everyone here means a lot to me and my family and thanks to Bao and Alex. It's just been an amazing journey. What's up everyone? This is Oren, a large cap swing mod. So happy to see you all. Glad we made this meet-up happen. So what Bao said that if you have something going on in your life that needs fixing do that and then come back to trading. Trading is all about touching buttons. So I tell people that I touch buttons to make money and they don't believe me and I treat the people in the pharmaceutical company the plan manager the same as the guy that picked up the trash. I respect everyone. I'm like the traveling moderator right like I travel all around Europe. Middle East I haven't been home. This is my first time in California you know a little over two years. I love traveling because I could meet different people learn about different cultures share you know experience with people. I love history. I love to learn about the countries and things to do there and MIC has gave me access to be able to do that. About three years ago I quit my full-time job and I just started trading two and a half years ago or so and I just started traveling. I just had a couple years saved up and I just left and you know without MIC I mean I probably could have made a good run for a year or so but I would have had to come back and get back to work so now bank accounts good. I'm at least out here another couple years traveling I mean so I go to a country I don't know anything about the country and then next thing you know I've got a local member like showing me you know everything about his country and we're hanging out having drinks having dinner so like for me it's really about being able to be social get to know people learn about their cultures and share with them and really connecting different countries and connecting the world and we do that through trading trading to me is just like a tool to be able to follow my passion and MIC is the way to get there so I would say be patient stick with MIC if you're not there yet give it time don't worry about the profits just worry about trading well and you'll get there eventually. I might have similar exits and entries to my mentor and who I look up to and who I want to be as a trader but like I have a completely different process than them so I think just not comparing yourself is huge and then another thing I don't know it's kind of like spiritual but like people always think about where they want to be in the future and it's like ideal future state and then they look at themselves and they're they're inferior to where they want to be and they're always like well I don't have that money I want to be here I'm not the trader that I want to be and when you keep telling yourself you're not who you want to be you won't be that person so yeah exactly so it's like start to tell yourself today that you already are that ideal future trader you want to be like you might not have the millions of dollars in your bank account but like that future tyler that's trading like he's going to be pretty disciplined he's going to be patient he's going to stick to his process it's like you can be that future desired self today and tell yourself today that you are the trader you want to be and then you'll recognize that you'll start to feel better when you're trading and when you feel better you'll start to stick to your rules you'll stick to your process you won't deviate you're not emotional and all of that stress comes from thinking that we're not where you want to be and that removes so much stress and I think with trading like we'll trade our best and we're not emotional when we're not stressed don't compare yourself to anyone else just compare yourself to where you are today feel good today and just know that like whatever you're doing today will get you to where you want to be but you just have to look at it today so I just wanted to thank Alex, Tosh, and Val for having everyone here and helping me and giving us a place where we can you know find a mentor and find someone that we can ask questions to and I'm excited to hopefully do the same for for all of you and everyone else yeah that's a good point because you know what you would have killed for 500 dollar things versus working at Starbucks and so that's the thing that's the thing that's the most traders because they forget that they used to want this that 500 bucks or whatever you was what made you happy why are you not happy now so sometimes you have to be like okay man my ego is preventing me from being happy you know my goal is just to fucking supplement my income for example whatever they be right and so imagine if you made an extra 200 bucks a day you would have been ecstatic and happy but you're not happy anymore is because when you got it you never you didn't really appreciate it because you look around you're like dude this other dumb ass makes more than money to me or whatever it may be because I'm like you're like more entitled now right so so that's why I always keep them up that's what Alex keeps the stack of dollars to remind them how much 100 bucks is and that's why I you know it's like for me as well like I go to Costco let me ask the right I go and I'm like holy fucking dude when I was a kid I couldn't buy any of this shit but now I could buy anything I fucking want but it didn't make me happy now who is that so it's like so you have to ground yourself and the moment that you're happy making 100 fucking dollars dude you don't have to pick a trash or do construction work like dude I was doing construction work eight years ago bro I was like I mean I'm pretty loud but I'm like really loud the thing is guys let me say it like this on more of a technical standpoint versus what we've been talking about motivation and getting to know who you are even if you came into MIC and you realize oh my god maybe trading's not for me learn how the stock market works stock market real estate and business ownership are the only real ways to through generational wealth and to get rich if you put your money in a bank it's going to lose value over time right you know inflation we talked about Fed raises whatever Alex gave a really good YouTube live on this recently if you don't know how the Fed works if you don't know how spy works you're going to learn that MIC this is not just day trading even though that's what most of us do most of us are after I long-term invest spies down 20% right now I threw in that's a great opportunity in my eyes that's not investment advice to do that but you're going to learn how the market works this is a wealth generator so you're going to get value in every way and the beautiful thing about this is and the reason why I brought this up is if you're stumbling in your trading right right now if you are and maybe you've given a really long time in a college boy tribe there's dividend investing there's long-term investing Joe does options dude I didn't know what an option was eight years into my career I was like Joe this is amazing I know options now because of Joe Kelly I was a trader for eight years me and Alex like now we know options Alex killed on Tesla that one day and options trading last minute options right Alex didn't you do some puts the point is guys I know there's a couple in this crowd it's just mathematically feasible right there's a couple in this crowd they're on the brink of maybe I want to give up trading it's very hard it's hard for some people especially the most emotional the fact me and Val were able to become traders is insane we're emotional fucking people dude he's the most but I'm right behind him Alex is a steady hand he's a stone of emotion that's his superpower that's not mine that's not mine I'm erratic so I love everything and you have to find what works for you so if you're in the brink of like you know what man trading is really hard maybe it's not for me give it another try in another form of the stock market you'll find something that works for you because if you just go work a job and put your money in the bank you're gonna get smoked you're gonna get smoked even knowing just that you can put your money in an index or a mutual fund or a spy is so much value it's worth an annual membership over a lifetime it's worth a lifetime membership I'm not trying to sell you guys okay that's not what I'm here to do what I'm saying is guys is I swear to God like don't go in with this predefined notion of I'm not Alex I'm a loser man you don't have to make that kind of money we created in my seat so the normal guy can maybe have a fighting chance to stop the job he hates going to he found out how to make $150 a day am I wrong am I wrong this is common sense this is what people will think about and every idiot on twitter is trying to program you that if you don't make Alex when you're a loser I don't make Alex money he's insane he's an astronomical anomaly in trading but if you get to any level of $150 200 days pretty easy when you've been doing it for a long time that's huge dude and it's something you love I love what same it was talking about earlier I love what a lot of you you guys were talking about earlier oh rinse kick and ass now you'll get there but don't judge yourself so strongly that because some guy on twitter because Alex is who Alex is anomaly of an anomaly that you're falling short you verse you and there's something that you're gonna identify with and it might not be short selling might not be long and first bounces maybe your spy investor you are now part of the stock market now is because maybe in my seat great we're not really credit takers for all super humble dudes whatever but this is a family but you guys are now introduced to the biggest wealth generator in our society next to real estate and business ownership there's a lot of people who don't want to do business they didn't go to accounting and there's a lot of people who look real estate man it's a lot it's a language in itself I almost bought an house like two months ago I was like I don't even want to deal with it man I throw my money and spy all my extra money just throwing us by make some money trading throwing us by that's what I like this is a perspective from the trader side so what I want to do is I want to have Cobra guys come and talk about the perspective of the broker side right here because they see they see the back end of what we all do so first off thank all of you guys for coming out it's amazing it's great to meet a lot of you guys in person that we talked with on chatter on the phone makes a great group we do get to work with a lot of amazing traders bound out of secluded we're investing you got success these guys are invested you got success our incentive is always to see you guys succeed in trading um so even if you don't have a Cobra account hopefully one day you're considering it and I know these may guys have your best interest in mind I can say that for sure so so what do you guys see on the broker end that a lot of traders are doing wrong that maybe you could kind of help them out on going full size in the pre market the dumbest thing you can do right people love doing it just you guys see everything they're the guys behind the screens that watch everyone's accounts right so they know exactly what people are doing wrong so that's why I wanted you guys to kind of come on here and explain what you guys see people doing wrong so that we all can learn from that and prove to them listen to these guys max loss max loss best thing yeah yeah max loss is badass really helpful sizing is everything if you can learn how to consistently make a hundred dollars like use an example you can scale that up make five hundred dollars make a thousand make ten thousand if you have a strategy that works again you can scale it takes discipline it takes time and one of the worst things that we see is when guys come in and blow up quick we hate to see that I mean uh the micro cap space that these guys traded is extremely volatile we of course have to mitigate a lot of risks on the back end for the firm itself there's a lot to learn from them and use the tools that you have at your availability like again if you have a Cobra account use that account max loss position max loss too you know you learn your own disciplines but that can really help in the meantime really help you build strategies that work and yeah we get to see high highs and low lows max size max loss no oversizing pre market wait a second those are gonna teach us those things who where did that come from so the same things that we talk about is the same things that they see on their end with traders trading 30 000 or 30 million you know what I'm saying and they got accounts at Cobra do with both of those yeah so if those guys are trading 30 million are doing the same things at 30 000 accounts do it that's your lesson to know what works and what doesn't work it's just happens guys it's just what works and what doesn't they know I mean they're the magician they're like the magician we're just the guy watching them they know everything you know behind the back end that's what they're telling you yeah so if you guys see them asking questions maybe if you guys are different brokers talk to them I think they have special deals going on but yeah they're here to help you guys guys Cobra's awesome good pizza shirts if you guys want a mask come up here we'll throw you a mask can I get this to you sir man you want I'm just like you want mine yes of course okay man and so don't be afraid to come up and you know he came because we're noble people right and then look at me hiding you know to be honest right imagine if we didn't do this he may have never even thought about joining we'd be scared all you guys maybe there's how many people here do you want to eight of them are not in my team but those are not in my team members why don't you all gather here she's not a member she's like hey what are your rates what can you do the guy that delivered the pizza wanted to join as well for the first six months I was consistently profitable because you enter a trade with a plan you have a level that you kind of set as like your confidence level okay if it hits here you know I'm going to be out or you know you give a little tolerance or threshold it's all about being aware of what could happen having a plan plan a plan b and really sticking to it and uh I gotta say you know you guys are amazing at what you do you guys are humble you guys are consistent and reinforce good habits so I'm just out here really just want to thank you guys and all the mentors moderators so the best thing in my opinion has always been to get other people who is at your level or starting whatever explains you what they did to get through that next step maybe you don't even know how to place an order and no even everyone assumed that you know how to place an order and so we bypass that because we think we take it for granted for example right and so when these guys are asking me how do you how do you place an order on the offer because they double these guys don't even know you so I mean like sometimes we take it for granted like that but other rooms that are pumping up room they they want you to slam the bed they're using macros and whatever the hell it might be right and so come up here tell your story of your struggles and what and how you overcame that and I guarantee you to do that you have to realize that who said you know a lot more than you think your win could be you know multiples um before you enter out and so even though your win rate is 30% you're you're gonna you know your games are gonna be before I started trading you know I don't even know where to start but they give you a path you want to be long you want to be short and you see the different traders in the different stages of their lives maybe they've they've gone through things that you've already went through they're going through things that you have gone through but usually it's the other way around and you see all the different traders in their path see the path you know what I mean like MIC gives you that roadmap to success really you know I I was long joined MIC and I was short once I learned how to short I was even better long so no I'm long it's all because of MIC about replacing income just give you a background I've been a data analyst a financial analyst data quality for fortune 500 companies for the last maybe 18 20 years I wasn't really happy working for a company so I wanted to branch out on my own and make money and it was really difficult I was into data it was very hard to read the charts so I was watching Bao's videos Alex's videos a lot of free good content learned a lot from that and now I joined MIC about two months ago I learned from everyone I can but MIC definitely solid and I learned it after being in trading for several years so I could distinguish the real deal versus not so much real and definitely MIC is the real deal that I love Alex's watchlist I wanted to say that what I realized for me what works is that until I become a good trader I don't consider myself a good trader although I don't lose much I decided to have a side income which was hard for me to do so I learned my build I paid off all my credit cards everything paid off my cars everything and that's my way of staying afloat I don't need to make much money to be successful and if I prove that over time that I can be consistent so I just wanted to share my experience I'll just put on the spot if you're pressured by financial things and so if you want to really make it to your career lower your bills until you make enough money because if you keep up with this lifestyle unnecessary fancy cars going out to dinner going to bars whatever you will not succeed the reason he's exceeding because he has no financial pressure and one last thing guys I was making like around 100 000 or so right at my job but I ended up with maybe like 60% of that I realized I'm gonna make I'm making much less and I have my expenses high I end up making same kind of money yeah oh yeah quality life there's not two ways about it man like quality life I started MIC like two months ago I discovered the whole deal through Alex on his youtube videos they were very helpful thank you so much I have joined like over five chat rooms and when I joined these guys it just clicked the first time when I heard the low-hanging fruits go get a job you have to cancel the emotional factor before you can be a sustainable trader because oftentimes I will see the setup there but I can't press the button I don't I don't want to lose money we want to cancel the the emotional factor first I would consider the education to be like 30 max with a practice you would get better but 70 at least will be emotional yeah because if I trade with the with one share I mean I can keep adding till 100 bucks with no panicking but I have done that on a stock called the acy if you guys remember it skipped on me all the way to 28 I ended up cutting on the top it it skipped to 38 and then they they like it was t12 or something and then resume that 16 bucks that was a big lesson to not add to losers don't fight the trend focus on the low-hanging fruits thank you so much guys there's a dip a toad in the crocodile get your whole body man anybody else I've done that and so it was relatable and so I'll tell you man the more you hear that you the more you you become a better trader because you're like I thought I was the only idiot I did that are you still eating um do you guys have any questions does anybody have questions for us directly as a group if this is the questionnaire part like ask whatever you want you have people that make this for a living ask questions you I know you have questions the one thing I'll add before you ask Chris to show is uh what my man was talking about over here is I took 35 thousand dollars in debt to start my trading career on credit cards I was 22 at the time with no fucking money man I was working construction but I'm ballsy I take big risks I I've always shot from the hip that's how I my dad's like I guess I got it the level of fucking stress that I almost got sick because you got to get your life right first and that's the best thing vows ever taught in 20 years is if you trade it's called a barrier to entry right getting started anything the barrier to entry and trading is you need some money but you need a mindset too so if you go in with debt and your life isn't right you fight with your girlfriend you got a beat-up car that you can't even afford that car the last thing you should do is be worrying about trading this doesn't necessarily mean education you can still get an m i c membership still learn on the side my god it's still like getting a real estate book and learn a real estate you don't have to act on it yet though and provide that pressure yourself so if I could go back in time by the kid by the son at 10 he's or whatever 17 when I was 22 and he's like hey I want to get started in trading sure get an educational course don't act on it but a simulator don't go into debt get your life right I built years of bad habits I was trying to trade it from underwater I'm still dealing with those bad habits you start with someone like Alex treats like a business for a minute one half the money to do so etc etc that's gonna develop really different habits and when you know anything about habits when you have it's not hard to break to get your life right first doesn't mean you can't get in a course somewhere whatever hopefully it's in my seat you like him I see get a simulator take a slow and then once you get some money now you can really try but man to start backwards you're gonna go backwards I'm not very good yet with market cycles everything else as far as what I'm gonna which methodology I'm gonna apply my trading uh so and so I was wondering uh with the watch list or are you guys uh applying you probably just do this automatically without thinking about it but are you kind of applying some of the market cycle into uh what's your preference for the day whether you're going to be doing the low hanging fruit first red day obviously if we see those kind of jumping on that but really what I'm asking is your method for the day are you kind of focusing on that on that as far as what cycle we're in how the market's doing with what you're going to be doing along in our shorting because I know you guys do both the problem is you you're too worried about the watch list on that and you and during this time you were lazy not to learn another strategy and so what happens is if you're stuck to doing one thing and that one thing is no longer valid you're fucked so the problem is not that one thing it's the fact that you know what it's like you had all this time to prepare for this shit but you assume that's what happened so this is what happens when these guys can't do anything else except that one one way to do it okay and so I I'm able to do I do well because I don't rely just on one thing and and so I'm able to do the first bounce when things are going crazy I lost a lot on the short side because I had to go along now I can go short but when you go along but eventually markets come back where it could be a popping up but the AMC comes back the game stock I mean the shorts are getting killed if you can only short you're dead makes sense during that time all along it's fucking easy money but now it's completely opposite and that's why you're like oh fuck I don't know what to do so remember me in the room I will tell you guys when things are fucking slow start to learn new things and so when is when can you learn new things only when things are slow and so so crying there's nothing you this is your opportunity to learn a new thing or to see they're doing absolutely jack skin waiting for you know and so I want all you guys and be able to learn both sides you don't have to trade short you don't have to trade long but just the moment that you start learning how do you know you're not better at short short seller than along you know there's cycles in the market there's times where short sellers really have to sit on the bench and there's times where long traders really have to sit on the bench right now the markets everybody's scared of Putin going into you know creating you know like Russia and things like that and Biden or whatever politically it doesn't matter but maybe there's a lack of opportunity in small caps options guys this is a funny story because like we had to fact check it if it was real it was so great like because you know we want to make sure it's legit before we promote it um because this is huge when you trade options you can trade with a much smaller account I don't know if you guys know that so we had a member start with uh Stephen where are you at? Stephen's? Is Stephen still here?


Hi, welcome to this show of the news click. And today we are very happy to have Romi Kosla with us. Thank you for joining us, Romi's up. And if you don't mind, I'll call you Romi though. Age is such a big difference. Well, Romi has been, I mean, professionally he's an architect planner, but who believes in the future of India. And Romi has also been instrumental into the urban revitalization of some of the very important cities in the war-torn countries of Europe and parts of Asia comprising Kosovo, Bulgaria, Romania, Cyprus, Palestine. And this work was assigned to him by the UNDP. So thank you for joining us, Romi. What we are discussing today, I mean, that is, I think something very important. We all know we are passing through a very difficult phase, the phase of pandemic COVID-19. Millions of people have died. We've lost many of our friends. I mean, not a single house that we can point out that has not been affected, either infected or the house that has not lost. It's a real grief that has stricken around the world. But what we're discussing today, and for that we have, I mean, the best person probably in the region to just speak about that is one of the dossier or one of the circular of the government It was kind of a guideline that was issued by our central government. We have seen, I mean, the government has been pointing out that Doga's kidurium just keep a distance of six feet. But recently we saw the principal chief advisor, the scientific advisor to the government of India saying that, no, we must maintain a distance of 10 meters. Okay, fine, that's not a problem.  Yes, houses should be ventilated. Keep your air conditions on and also keep your doors and windows open. Now, so ventilate your houses. I mean, it looks so good. I mean, it looks so nice to speak about, not realizing that 40% of our population lives in just a single room. And in our urban centers, you know, I think more than, especially the urban agglomerates that we're talking about, the metropolis of our country, nearly 50% of the population lives in slums. So I think it's a big disconnect that we are witnessing now. I mean, what are we talking about? Where are we heading to? Nevertheless, this is something important.  So before you just point out straight to the questions from me, how do you take this circular as? I mean, what is it? I mean, the intent is fine, the science is good, but I think it's far away and far distance from the actual reality that is existing. And then we'll come pointedly to the questions that I think we want you to address, please. You see, we as a country face many, many problems and the question is who is going to take responsibility for the solutions that are being recommended? You see, it is very easy to sit in government and give directors. So is there any person taking responsibility for those? So if you say that there are 40% of the population which is in single room or without houses, should get houses. IFO give a directive that the housing ministry should provide houses for them. Has anybody taken any responsibility for this work? And we have had unfortunately more than 70 years of governance without responsibility, governance with lot of directives, lot of acts, lot of laws being passed, but nobody taking the responsibility. And this pandemic today, which is amongst us here, is actually the culmination of a system of government which doesn't take responsibility. It gives all sorts of directives. Finally, we have the government of uneducated people. So we have people who don't bother with responsibility or anything. So the question comes, how do we take the responsibility for all the directives, whether on housing, whether better ventilation. Now, we are very lucky. In this great country of ours, there are 28 states, nine union territories, 720 countries, 723 districts, Dalak Panchaik. Here is the place where responsibility has to be placed. So more decentralization. Why are we not making people responsible? Why are we going to one place for doing miracles to this country? There are going to be no miracles. So to give you an example, let us take housing for instance. Now, let us look at the 730 odd districts and their municipalities also. Each of them has a housing problem. Each of them face different systems of housing. I cannot make it in Himacharya. Therefore, the responsibility for housing comes down to the district level. And even within a district, Panchaik has to be made responsible for delivering housing. You can't have a fellow sitting in South Block ruling this country with the dictates. And after that, they go home. So what happens here? So we have to recognize that something like housing is a personal requirement. It is not a general requirement. It is a personal requirement. Each family is different. Each area is different. Each climate is different. Each building material is different. So I would say that there has been, we are in a crisis. And the single cause for that is because nobody has taken the responsibility to solve any problem. So Rami, if I may just ask, because this is what you've placed, needs of housing in the national context. And you say in the national context, it is more local and regional context that has to be considered. I mean, fair enough. And we also realized recently in Le because I am instrumental. And of course I have gone through all the documents that you actually created in some, I think, two decades or three decades earlier for Le. So now I am part of that, writing the vision document for Le. And you'll be surprised to know that a building plan for Chandigarh, I mean, how a house is to be considered in Chandigarh, the same structural methods are being used to construct a house in Le, which is minus 20, minus 30 degrees. And then all of a sudden, we find in Kendri with their Le's, children getting chill planes. Okay. So yeah, so I think I have fully substantiated what you're saying. I mean, it has to be very regional. But at the same time, what way I mean, do we do? I mean, when you say that, you know, panchayats have to take the lead. I mean, what could be the process leading to such a process? And then we'll come to the pandemic. And this is something very interesting point that you've raised. Let us separate out two separate things, right? One is responsibility. The second is finance. Okay. So let me talk about responsibility. This is the time when every panchayat must prepare a report card. It has to do it for health facilities. It has to do it for the hospitals, beds. It has to do it for houses. Now, when we come to houses, every panchayat must have a report card. We cannot tackle the problem until we have this data. What we are tending to do is we go to the census or census. She doesn't make any sense to us because nobody wants to take the responsibility. Now, you tell me that there are 2.5 lakh panchayats. You have forgotten about them. You have taken a census. You have given a shortage of lakh crores and allocated so many big funds. After that, everyone is asleep. So, responsibility must first of all begin by making a report card at the panchayat level. And you have to support the panchayat by helping them prepare the report card. And what I am saying is the report card is not only for housing. It is for health. It is for infrastructure. Separate report cards. Now, this database that you will establish will be of a different order because in the report card of the housing, now we know that almost 30% of the entire housing in India is single root. And another 37% is two root. This is 6-7 people living here. There is a pandemic like this. What do we understand? The family must be sick. So, we have to then discuss with the panchayat what is the reasonable standard of housing that you should build in the panchayat. You should help build or you should approve. When you say panchayat, it also means the local bodies. I mean the urban local bodies. Urban local bodies. You see, in the case of the municipalities, I mean at block level. I mean at block level. So, half the population is urban, so you do it at the block level so that I have an office in the block or in the panchayat where I know that this person is going to be dealing with my house as a person I have to do it. You know, taking that there is a beautiful line that Tolstoy has started. He says that happiness is the same for all rich people. But unhappiness is each individual suffering in a different way. Absolutely. Housing is a problem in which each family suffers in a different way. And you cannot put it into statistics. So, to answer your question very briefly, finance, let's get it from the center, let's get it from the state. But responsibility has to be with urban bodies and block level and panchayat. Perfect. I think from this, we move to the second question. You know, this whole business of housing design in general, ventilation and insulation. And so, yeah, you pointed out the specificity of the whole issue that should be quite local based. So, yeah, we'll come to the capacity also. But, you know, take for example, Delhi. Slowly and slowly what our planners and architects have been doing and then they're influencing the, even the bodies that approve those plans, the height of the roof gets reduced and reduced. So, in a ventilation, all of a sudden gets, I mean, secondary or even tertiary. That's not even part. Now, the pandemic has hit you back and said, look, this is very important. I mean, some of the basic tenants of housing and living, are they getting reinforced? So, how do you actually look at it? You see, there are two or three broad issues here. When you are living in a big city like Delhi or Bombay or Calcutta, the level of pollution is high. And because of the dense building, the breeze that you get is very difficult to clear from, without mechanical means from the house itself. So, you cannot form a general rule which is extending all over India. What the governments in the past have done is they have framed typical bylaws. All right? What are the bylaws they call them? I mean, sorry, India got a model bylaws, whether you're in Leh or whether you're in Bombay. Now, the root cause of the bylaw is the fact that it is generalized and not district wise, not climate wise, not climate wise. So, climate is important here. Now, let me take a house in Leh, which we make with mud, where there are minus 20 degrees. I can't have big leasing there, no? Yes.  No, I cannot have big leasing. I may require in Bombay people to see. So, you can't have what the bylaws have done is they have given percentage because it's not 10% of all the opening, bathroom, ventilation. It's not at all so. And I would go back and I would say that we have to frame at panchayat level our bylaws. In each panchayat and each municipal block, you must have the bylaws. And I'll tell you why. Yeah. Because let me take, for instance, a urban city like Delhi or Indore or Bhopal. The city has different densities. You cannot have general bylaws, which cover everything. So, even a municipal area has to have block-wise bylaws. This block has this density. So, this bylaw. I agree since both you and I, I mean you are in Dharamsala, I mean Simla. So, we can easily understand that even on a mountain, the northwest and the southeast should have different sets of buildings. Because it, I mean, depending on the sun and the strength of the rock. Yeah, please go ahead. So, what we, what I come back to what I originally said is that let us regard housing like medical, like the medical, as a personal problem. Let us solve it at a personal level. You have a look what is wrong with him and then you present it. Two last questions from you. And so, when you say the personal, I mean, I again will go back to the general. And I mean, just, just cite one example. And this, I, and this is what I understood more when I went to the Lady Harding Medical College in Delhi. And I saw there that their old set of buildings, Lady Harding is a building made in the British times. There is a very, especially one board which is OBS Guiney. It is a very high building. I mean, it has a very high room in which ventilation is very good. It was like really cold because the wall, the thickness of the wall, air could move in. And then there was an outer wall to protect it from the sun. So, you know, so those experiments were done earlier. And now I can assume that that is a highly ventilated, you know, hospital. The general, when you speak about, you know, public institutions, public buildings. There are two new buildings and that is a matchbox. And I was asking them that, how about a second without air conditioning, they won't work. So this planning process, the general process and going between real estate, I can also say that the nexus or interest of, you know, a lot of, I mean, companies that manufacture air conditioning has completely shifted from that but can we just reinforce, I mean, I don't say we go back to the British Air or we go back to, but I think, just as you are talking about the local design, there is no need to reinforce all these things again, where we have climate, energy consumption, of course, air and all of this. And secondly, what are the lessons from this? What should be the future direction? We are seeing that there is no doubt. I mean, we are making modern, but in the name of TOD, I am literally calling it modern slum, the way it has been made. I mean, there is no question of ventilation, no social infrastructure has been kept in mind. And all of a sudden, because you are biking around there, to go to Sree Fort, all of a sudden, I see that there is no cause. I don't think this is a stable form. So how do you see these two things? Look, the kind of house you build and what kind of technique you use is influenced by the cost of energy. You see, if I am getting cheap electricity, I say, okay, we will put air conditioner. If I am getting electricity, where somebody tells me, if you put air conditioner, then your bill will not come. So I will do the first thing, I will leave the air conditioner. And I will ask, what should I do? Make big walls. Don't open windows on the side of the house. So our mind shifts. Secondly, we are in India, we find the building of a house or a structure as one of the best inflation hedges. One of the best inflation. Inflation hedge against inflation. Okay. My savings. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Where do I put it? Every day I put it. I will get that percentage. So what I am doing is that I am putting my savings into construction. Now I own a plot. And on that I am going to maximize my building because for me, this is my saving. So I will make the roof level low at nine feet because by law has given us nine feet. So nine feet. And nine feet universally is an unhealthy height to have in a tropical country. All no heat rises to the top. I'm no foot. I'm breathing it in all day. You cannot make roof less than 10 and a half feet, 11 feet in a hot area. Obviously if you put 10-11 feet on every floor, then two floors will be less. So everybody says, what are you doing? We are not realizing that health, energy, housing, these are interconnected. Interconnected, definitely. You cannot use one and not affect the other. So if you imagine, why has the COVID hit the urban area so badly is because the living conditions have caused pollution. People's lung capacities are reduced. People's ability to have natural immunity is reduced. Why? Because the living conditions are not good. So we have to first of all start regarding these interconnections. And then if we misuse one part, it's at the cost of another. All right? So if I lower my roofs and I make a hot house, it's at the cost of my health. So we have to balance all three things. Perfect.  You said that you design in Panchayat, but where is the capacity? So this capacity should be built on a very local level. And I remember you suggesting a national service. So would you like to throw some light on that? You see, I want you to think of the pandemic we have and the shortage of doctors and nurses because we didn't plan for it. For the size of population we have and the number of doctors we have, number of nurses we have, it's very, very small. And in the same way, the size of population we have, the number of architects and engineers we are training is tiny. Tiny, absolutely. So we have to, on a very major scale, create a new level of architect engineer who is a very careful person who has technical training, can go into a village and go into a Panchayat, go into a block area and have two skills is that he is organizing the people in the sense of suggesting methods to them. You see, at higher technical level, you can always get expertise for a short while. But you imagine that in a block office or in a Panchayat office, there is a resident barefoot engineer and I as a householder can go to him and say, sir, my roof is stolen. What can I do for this? So again, it is at a personal level you have to attend to these problems. You must have a national service. I would go to the extreme of saying that every architectural school which has graduated has to give two years of national service. I agree, absolutely true. And the post that you get paid everything, it is for the graduate a huge living experience. Yeah, absolutely sir. We cannot drive. Thank you, thank you so much. I fully substantiate just to share an anecdote with you because I go to school of planning architecture. I'm not an architect by profession, but you decide how to build cities. Me as a sociologist or maybe as someone who's served the city for five years, I come in for whom the city should be built. They have this finally air thesis where they have to prepare a project report. So in one of the batches, they were to do something on the homeless in Delhi. And when I saw the first draft, sir, you'll be completely shocked at me what you actually said. I mean, they must get the feel of what India is. It was a complete binary between they and us. So I said, this won't do. And they are the ones who are going to construct important cities. I made them stay for there for 24 hours, that's all. I said, you stay in a homeless shelter for 24 hours. Of course, they were hiccups. But then they finally agreed. And those students said this was the best period of their lifetime to actually realize what homeless people are actually people in the urban centers. So I think thank you so much for pointing this out. It's not just, I mean, not just a sanitation issue, but it's, I mean, things are very interconnected. And the way how we should move for the decentralization, what you focus and also for democratization, actually empowering those local bodies. Thank you so much for. Thank you.