Good morning everyone, I am Mukta Atre and I am the project manager for this entire project. And I welcome you all to the co-ordinators workshop on heat transfer on behalf of the Aklavya project. Professor Fatak could not join us today, he is the principal investigator for the project. So, I am taking this opportunity to welcome you all, we are very very pleased to have you here. Today's dignitaries include Professor Gayatunde, Professor Sukhatme who is the chief guest for the event, Professor Vedula the head of the department of mechanical engineering, Professor Arun and Professor Prabhu who will be the teaching faculty for this workshop and they will be doing the main workshop as well, very welcome to all of you sir. And now I would like to give the mic to Professor Gayatunde who will be the master of ceremonies for today's event, thank you. Explosion of engineering education, essentially at the undergraduate level, so if you look at the output, the output quantity wise has exploded, grown tremendously, the quality we are not so sure, this growth perhaps should have been more gradual, should have begun instead of 30 years ago maybe 50 years ago, but once it started growing it exploded maybe with a time constant of maybe 3 years, 4 years of that order and that explosive growth has led to problems of what production people called quality control and quality assurance. And we in IIT noticed it because many of these products of engineering colleges came to us at some time or the other for doing their M.Techs and PhDs and we noticed that their basic grounding at the undergraduate level was not as neat as we would have expected and that created issues regarding our teaching of our M.Tech and our management of the P.L.T. programs. This was compounded to some extent by the quality of teachers, the quantity of teachers was low and even the quality of teachers was not what we expected because a sort of an inbreeding or a short circuiting route of you know employing your own graduates as teachers was followed by many of these colleges, indirectly helped by the authority which says that a graduate engineer with a first class degree is immediately eligible to become a faculty member in an engineering college which I do not think looking back was a good idea. So with this background Professor Fatak and Professor Fatak you know once he takes interest in something he will go through hell and high water to satisfy himself. So he did a Bharat Yatra some 6 or 7 years ago and he visited a large number of engineering colleges to look at what the ground reality is, the ground truth is and he came up with some statistics and today's statistics is that there is something like between 4000 and 5000 engineering colleges the number of students who can be admitted is of the order of 13-14 lakhs at the first year. So 4 times that number is roughly the number of students in the college so that becomes about 50 lakhs roughly half a crore. You can take it as a ratio of the population of India and that is not a miniscule number. Slightly more than half of these are in the CSIT electronic type of departments. Now when it comes to teachers the teacher student ratio ideally should be say if it is 1 to 10 it is utopian but a good working ratio may be perhaps is 1 to 15 but it is nowhere near 1 to 15 it is on an average it is 1 to 25 it may be worse than this in CSIT and electronics it may be better than this in traditional branches like mechanical, electrical and civil engineering. It was immediately realized that to improve the quality of output of graduates from these engineering colleges we need to do what is called backward integration rather than let the graduates come out and then try to improve their lot. We should improve the teaching that they go through the teaching learning experience that they go through and since that experience is provided and managed by college teachers it is necessary for us to improve the abilities of the teachers of these students and that is how the Eklavya project began. It was held by the rapid developments of the internet and what is known as the internet and communication technologies, ICT and with appropriate funding from the MHRD the Eklavya project started about how many, 3, 4 years ago, 2005, so 6 years ago. Before Eklavya project started and soon after it was realized that our earlier model of exposing teachers to good engineering practices was what was known as a continuing education program or a short term course for under the QIP scheme or some similar scheme where at a time may be of the order of 30 or 40 teachers could be trained and if you look at the number of students which we just mentioned that the total number of students in engineering colleges is of the order of 40 lakhs or half a crore divide that by 25 or 30 and you get the number of teachers and you will find that 30 at a time at one place is too small a number. So it was decided to jack up this number. The earlier model was something like this, we would have a course here and 30, 35, at most 40 teachers would go back that is almost like a drop in a notion but using ICT a new model was developed properly cooked and implemented by Professor Fatak and this course is may be the 6th or 7th rendition of that model. Since Professor Fatak was in the CS department, he started on his home ground, he started the first I think 3 courses on computer programming and utilization. The model was similar to what is being implemented now. A coordinators workshop for 5 working days out here in IIT Bombay campus and then you go back each one of you become a center coordinator and each center sort of grabs or tries to host something like 30, 40 teachers. So in principle the total audience is of the order of a few hundred at least and perhaps 1000 more than slightly more than 1000 because considering the coordinators batch 30 or 40 is a good number. Considering a classroom in a remote center again 30 or 40 is a good number. So 1000, 1500 at most 2000 is perhaps 40R but that 2000 is a very significant number. Looking at the history, the first 3 courses were computer programming and utilization and then one course in databases and for computer programming and utilization the number of final participants were of the order of I think 500, 700 something like that. For databases the number 1000 was crossed for the first time. I think it was 1030 or 1040. It was then realized that one should not of course a significant number of students are in the electronic CSIT fields but the remaining half are in traditional fields like mechanical, electrical, civil and maybe some in chemical engineering and of course sprinkling of order branches like production, construction, instrumentation and something like that. So professor Fatak started to rope in people from some other departments and he started the first guinea pig turned out to be the department of mechanical engineering and I volunteered to do a course in thermodynamics and I think many some of the phases are familiar so and maybe those who are not familiar no must have known what has happened because at least I see out of this 30 centers some 24 or 25 where centers in thermodynamics. How many centers here which were not centers of thermodynamics? 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6 and how many centers here which were not centers at all earlier in this? Just 4. So we seem to have some set of reasonably established centers that is good because in thermodynamics we could handle something like 850 participants. In electronics the number was something like 1200-1500 roughly then we are half way through implementing photovoltaics that is the coordinators workshop is over and now this is the coordinators workshop for heat transfer. So mechanical engineering is had signed up for thermodynamics is completed the second part of make engineering for some reason again the so called thermal and fluids engineering part is heat transfer beginning now and two other colleagues professor Puranik and professor Sharma right, I do not know whether they are here, at least professor Atul Sharma is here they have already signed up for a similar course on computational fluid dynamics and heat transfer. So this was essentially the background and I hope you will enjoy this coordinators workshop and I hope you will be able to manage. I want all of you to promise that you will get at least 50 participants at each center. So let us see whether we can overtake the electronics. Now may I request professor Sukhathmi the chief guest and since we are all the heat transfer people I do not think I have to introduce professor Sukhathmi, sorry, professor Vedula head of the department today, professor Sridharan, professor Prabhu, coordinators of the workshop project managers all participants who are coming here as coordinators ladies and gentlemen about three months ago I inaugurated the two week workshop on thermodynamics which was being conducted at remote centers and today it is my pleasure to inaugurate this five day coordinators workshop for the subject of heat transfer. They are two related subjects and it is very logical that having conducted the course in thermodynamics we should now go on to heat transfer and it is further it will be logical if we go on to do a course on CFD which is to follow. So that you know we will have completed a bunch of courses which sort of relate to each other in mechanical engineering. Professor Gaithundey has already explained the nature of the course and it is important as coordinators that you appreciate the philosophy behind having these workshops the five day followed by the ten day. I think he mentioned to you that earlier we and even today for that matter short term workshops are there all the time going on in colleges, institutes typically twenty to thirty participants, typically one professor and they are usually held in the summer or in the winter. This has been going on and we will go on but the main problem with such workshop is you reach too much smaller audience you reach out only twenty, thirty, forty people at the most and therefore you do not make that kind of impact that you would like. Secondly one of the features of these workshops is that now you are specifically trying to enhance teaching skills of teachers. Normally when we used to hold IST workshops in the old days we would teach the subject like we teach it to M. Tech students and hope that those who attend will absorb and then automatically teach better. These workshops however which you are attending and this five plus ten day plan is to enhance teaching skills. You know engineering is one feature field where the qualification for being a professor is that you should have a PhD or you should have an M. Tech first class and things like that. Nobody asks whether the person can communicate well or whether the person can teach well. You know that in itself is an art. It is that way. There is no point in my saying why it is so. It is so. I suppose by the time you get a PhD you are so tired of studying that if you ask one more degree you would not get anybody. As it is we are not getting enough people to teach. So that could be one reason. But the fact is most of us pick up our teaching skills on the job as we go along. During our M. Tech we might have been teaching assistants and so on. So we pick up a few skills.  So the particular workshop which you are attending this five day followed by the ten day later is not only to bring out concepts and ideas in the subject of heat transfer but also to specifically improve and empower the teacher with more teaching skills. And in that sense it is different. It is also different because as Professor Geithan mentioned we are now reaching out to a much larger number. And this is the magic of distance learning. It is a combination of classroom teaching and distance learning that we are adopting in this model. Classroom teaching you reach out to two smaller number. Distance learning you can reach out to any number but then it is the distance and that distance means you are just having something that is being heard. Now we have got interactive mode and we also have coordinators like you who will go from here go back there and be present to conduct tutorials solve problems and so on. So not only are we reaching out to a larger number but I think we are reaching out more effectively to a larger number. And again as Professor Geithan mentioned the number is now significant enough for instance I estimated that say this year across the country there will be about 4000 places 4000 teachers required for teaching heat transfer this year. Now in this course we will be reaching out to nearly 1000 may be more may be less but of that order which means you are really straight away reaching out to about 20 or may be slightly higher percentage of that total population that we are talking about you understand. So it is a significant number of teachers who are going to be teaching heat transfer to whom one is reaching out and that is also very very important because the dimension of the problem is huge now. It has just skyrocketed you may sometimes just to give you some numbers I joined the Banaras engineering college as a first year student in 1954. The total student engineering capacity for colleges undergraduate capacity at that time was around 10,000 less than 10,000 for the whole country. Today the sanctioned capacity in the country exceeds 1 million alright more than 10 lakhs it is being filled entirely but it still it is in lakhs now. We are talking of something close to 10 lakhs as the total number of students who are probably getting into engineering colleges. So you can see the the volume of expansion that has taken place it is not volume corresponding to population growth our population is only 3 times in the last 60 years but this has grown and that is because the country has industrialized more rapidly so it is inevitable whether it should have grown so rapidly not grown so rapidly these are points which will always be debated and so on but the fact is this is the reality quantity is there quality has suffered and we need to increase quality and therefore such workshops as many as can be held need to be encouraged and need to be attended. Now the success of the workshop in terms of delivery depends on of course the two persons who will be conducting this workshop and that is professor Prabhu and professor Sridharan they will be conducting the workshop. I can assure you they are young they are enthusiastic and they will make you work hard they will also work hard no question about it ok. At the end of the day if any of you has any energy left join a walking contest with professor Prabhu let me tell you is the fastest walker on the campus anytime we meet as soon as we exchange a few words I tell Prabhu you know you go ahead I cannot keep pace with you. So at the end of the day if you have some energy left take him on for a walking race he will probably I think unless you are really a fast walker he probably still be way ahead of you. So he has energy use that energy to learn more heat transfer and in turn let me tell you when you go back and 2 months or 3 months later when we hold the 10 day workshop in remote center and each one of you will be at one remote center we expect you also to handle your job very responsibly then the success of the course is assured. So coordinators have a very important role and we urge you to take this job seriously not only will you benefit I mean professionally because you will teach the course a whole lot better but you will have the pleasure of also having helped another 30-40 people in your remote center to also pick up the course and there is no pleasure like having brought up people who themselves come back to you with the feedback saying because you were here I now do better what I am supposed to do. So do take your job seriously there will be things like attendance and all but you know attendance and all are what I call disciplinary measures beyond the point that do not have that same impact as feeling that you should do your job well once you have that feeling it gets done and that I want you all to have that feeling. Now let me talk a little bit about the subject of heat transfer the subject of heat transfer is a in my view you can say it is a biased view it is a what I call a fascinating subject it is a fascinating subject because it is many widespread applications that is what makes it in my view a very fascinating subject. It is a fascinating subject because it requires a knowledge of physics it requires a knowledge of mathematics and it also requires an engineer skill to be able to solve day to day problem that is what makes it fascinating it is not just mathematics it is not just physics it is applying the principles of physics and science to problems of interest and then developing devices which work in real life and or if devices have been built in analyzing those devices this is what heat transfer is all about and it is fascinating because it keeps growing the areas of application keep growing just to give you an example for instance when we used to study radiation the first time I studied radiation as subject incidentally there was no undergraduate course in heat transfer for me I never did an undergraduate subject of heat transfer it was not there in the curriculum in the 50s in India all right. So I studied heat transfer straight away as a postgraduate student taking subjects like conduction heat transfer convection etc and then when I came back to teach I had to teach an undergraduate course which I myself has never undergone you see things have changed but just to come back again to what I was saying the subject is fascinating because the areas in which we are interested keep changing earlier when we used to talk of radiation the old days the problems we gave generally you would have a problem involving furnaces you have some furnace walls and you will say they are exchanging heat by radiation calculate the heat exchange or if there is one surface which is a re-radiating surface what will be its temperature and things like that typical problems of furnaces where what we did suddenly in the late 50s space the first spacecraft went up it was Putnik went up in 56 another undergraduate student okay and immediately problems of space are all problems in which radiation plays a critical role in trying to either cool equipment on board or in trying to see that equipment on board does not overheat and things like that. So radiation applied to space problems became a big thing in the late 50s and continues to be a big area of interest in the old days when we studied conduction for instance classically people say conduction for what conduction means first thing is give a problem on insulation around a pipe old standard problem in heat transfer as best as insulation primer glass insulation if you have a pipe or if it is a refrigeration or an air conditioning problem and insulation for lower temperature what would be the thickness of that insulation typical old fashioned problem in conduction to be done that has changed now today for instance I mean tonight today but you know few years ago as electronics became more and more miniaturized problems of conduction and convection in miniature systems electronic systems in chips became the things which we started worrying about and therefore heat transfer problems associated with electronics became a major subject of interest and so many problems can be thought of and that can be done in these areas convection take an example like that all of you know if you know the Dieters-Bolter equation turbulent flow through a pipe or standard question always when we meet somebody says if there is flow in a pipe when does it become turbulent he says Reynolds number is greater than 2000 so good he at least knows that much then you say if you have studied heat transfer what equation will you use he will say normal equation is no such number 0.023 Reynolds number to the 0.8 etc. he knows that much but today now we are no longer using big pipes we are using micro scale micro heat transfer small diameter pipes and in small diameter pipes different dimensionless numbers take over two phase flow in this occurs and two phase flow the flow patterns as well as the correlations have changed so heat transfer at a micro scale has become a very important problem have become very important application one which problems have to be solved the same principles still hold it is radiation convection and conduction but the nature of the application has changed and that is what makes heat transfer a fascinating subject more importantly lately there are so many problems involving the life sciences which require a good knowledge of heat transfer let me give you one example if you read the newspapers nowadays there is a lot of talk about people using cell phones and is cell phone radiation harmful is that typical if you read any newspaper and depending upon whether which side you are on you will say if you are a manufacturer you will say it is absolutely nothing the amount of radiation is negligible stop worrying about it if you are a user and you feel strongly about it you will go on saying because radiation was high in that building so many children got cancer or so many people get headaches and things like that and these are the typical newspaper articles come why is one worried about the effects of what is the mechanism first of all you ask yourself behind this two things are talked about one is they say if you hold the cell phone close to your ear then it is microwaves after all that are being transmitted and those microwaves could be causing heating just like in a microwave oven a microwave oven has by the way few hundreds of watts this year we are talking about milliwatts or you know something of that order that too you know just for a certain amount of time will that cause harm will it cause over heating there are a whole lot of people who will say yes that is what is causing the damage the heating that occurs because you hold a cell phone near for a long period of time and therefore you should not make a call for more than few minutes or something like that there are others who say look I mean if you are a heat transfer engineer they say well the heating can never be important you are talking about milliwatts of power you are talking about large area at the most those temperatures temporarily may go out by a fraction of a degree it is not worth talking about but it remains still a problem of contention by the way there are people who do not know heat transfer who do not understand that when something heats up it has to lose heat also so what they do is they say if you hold the cell phone for half an hour here and it is a 0.1 watt or 0.2 watts then 0.2 into 30 minutes is the amount of energy that has gone in take some mass here and multiply it by specific heat so the rise of temperature is 5 degrees 10 degrees things like that I have seen people say that which is absolute nonsense because the moment something heats up it has to start losing heat you have to reach some steady state value but many people do not appreciate that argument even on discussed faculty if you read it you will see there are people going around who are not fortunate belonging to mechanical engineering who are talking such things so the point is heat transfer as a subject has widespread ramifications and so as a teacher it is not only important to understand the principles of the subject which of course remain the same or do not change all that much but to also understand the applications and go out into applications that interesting then the subject automatically you retain interest in it if you teach the same thing if you solve the same problems here in and here out well then automatically say what is there you know students come I teach them my notes are ready I will go and teach that that is not enough you have to keep adding on material in the form of new problem deleting older problems and so on then you are yourself mentally active students also enjoy it we used to have a teacher in Banaras I remember still you know who used to enter our class and the general story was that the notes he used to bring but the notes which he took down when he was a student that was the general story I probably correct so he was used to follow his notes very rigorously so good teacher by the way but you know notes he used to follow regularly and if for instance you know there was a repeater in the class you know in Banaras in those days if you failed more than two subjects you have to repeat the whole year sometimes you know there will be somebody if you students would be repeating the whole year and then if there is a repeater next to you you know now Charu is always going to tell us a joke and say how do you know it is in my notes here already you know that kind of thing everything else you know so at least do not write down jokes in your notes there should be something that must come from your heart so there is scope all the time for doing something new people should never think the subject means I have got my notes and I just walk in and deliver there is always something new to be added that is what makes the teaching of engineering so fascinating because there are so many applications keep reading about those applications get problems from them you will be interested your students also will be interested so let me now I think conclude with what I wanted to say I think what I have said is basically two or three things first of all I have talked a little about the nature of this workshop the five day workshop the five day workshop is to be followed by the ten day workshop at remote center and through this mechanism we believe we will be enhancing the teaching skills of a much larger number of teachers all across the country I also talked about the responsibilities of coordinators we want them to work hard we want them to learn the subject we want them not only to improve their skills but to improve the skills of others at remote center so we do feel that you know they have a very heavy responsibility we have to carry out our mandate properly and finally I talked a little bit about heat transfer just to keep you entertained you know the subject is good I have loved teaching it as I told you the first time I taught it was in 1966 that was the first time I taught the subject and I taught it for nearly 30 years or 35 years after that quite regularly of an on for undergraduate course it was never for me a boring subject to teach never not once did I walk into an undergraduate class and say oh not the same thing again it never happened why simply because you are all the time reading something you are adding something you are subtracting something and above all you are always facing new students you may be the same but the students are changing and mind you let me tell you you may think you know the subject but every year you will always find there will be a bright student or two in the class who will come up with a question and you will need to think about the answer to that question so do not ever overestimate that there is nothing left to ask I know all the questions they are going to ask I know all the answers it never happens there is always somebody who will come up with a question and you need to think about the answer and that is what makes a subject like this fascinating so interesting and something which absorbs you and keeps you going in life and feeling younger all the time I would love to teach it transfer again to be quite honest the traveler you grow older you do not quite have that shall I say energy to teach or you do not quite have the feel for numbers that you had earlier you cannot move with that electorate is used to when you were younger that is the only thing but teaching it has been a joy I want you to enjoy the subject I want you to enjoy your teaching and at the same time work hard then only everything between meaning the teaching profession itself then starts attaining a different meaning so with these words let me say I once again great pleasure in being here this morning I have great pleasure in inaugurating this five day workshop I wish it all success and I hope that you will go back rich and also of course in the ten day workshop to follow will be a great success Thank you very much Thank you very much professor Sukhat now may I request professor RP Vedula HOD of mechanical engineering and a teacher of it transfer in his own right to say something this comes as a total surprise to me I was just supposed to come here sit and do nothing and he says teacher of transfer in his own right I do not know what he means because I am not sure if he ever sat in my class when I was first you did incidentally I did sit in professor Sukhatne's class long time ago when he was teaching and like he said we would all wish for him we would a few lectures at least but at least with his knowledge we would have benefited quite a bit but then at least he has come here and he has said something to you all very relevant things we really thank him for having taken the time to come here and address all of us ok of course and they have been teaching heat transfer in our department and like both they have said both are very good teachers and I hope you all will enjoy your next few days of stay here and of course hopefully when you go back to your local centers you are going to be giving out as much energy as these two people have been giving to you thank you very much so may I introduce professor S. V. Prabhu and professor Arun Sridharan before I hand it over to professor Prabhu for the formal beginning of the course some introduction professor Prabhu is an alumnus of this institute he has a PhD and professor Vedula was his supervisor so before that he did his B.E. from Mysore University and M.Tech from Parishisurathakal now NIT-Surathakal and he has worked in Palghat with the flow control institute and he is a superb experimentalist and he will see to it that you do your demonstration and learning experiments here and he will also see to it heat transfer lab for the final main workshop at your respective places if you have a shortage or if you are not sure collect all the relevant data from you within 3 months you should be able to set up if you are interested a reasonably good heat transfer lab professor Arun Sridharan do not go by his name he has and those who are Marathi can speak to him in Marathi and he will properly talk Marathi to you the other Hindu colony Marathi type well he is not an alumnus of IIT Bombay but that does not make him any less important for us now may I just request professor Prabhu and may be professor Arun to take over thank you. Good morning everybody I do not want to waste time all the professors who have come on Monday morning here so we will be getting started with after the tea session at 10.30 and what we have planned is may be we will spend today conduction and next 2 days that is Tuesday, Wednesday on convection and radiation will be on Thursday a little bit of radiation on Thursday Friday morning followed by heat exchangers on Friday in the morning session and Friday evening this sort of wash out technically in the sense that we will be focusing on how to coordinate and other things like that I think I do not want to waste any of anyone else's time just to say that I sincerely thank professor Vedula and professor Sukatne and of course professor Gayathonday who has in fact without professor Gayathonday's enthusiasm myself and professor Arun would not have jumped into this and we got the mail from professor Gayathonday I saw the mail somewhere in midnight and I immediately talked to Arun and the next day we had met perhaps Dr. Mukta so it is all his enthusiasm and he is always behind us to help us out in fact in the main workshop I am even requesting professor Gayathonday to take couple of lectures as I had already requested professor Sukatne and as you have heard from him he does not want to get involved at the teaching level at this stage but professor Gayathonday will be there with us at every stage to help us out in finer details with this I will stop interacting with you now and we will get started at 10.30 thank you good morning everybody thank you for being here we sincerely like to thank the dignitaries on the dais and our colleagues who have come here we hope that the interaction during this coordinator's workshop is very fruitful to all of you let us make this as interactive as possible let it not be a one way street the schedule is drawn for five days does not mean that we have to follow it in lettering spirit we are always open for discussion during the session as well as during the lunch slash dinner which is going to be there one of us will be there at either the lunch or the dinner session for any kind of interaction and at other times also if you feel free to stop us for anything related to the course ok so let it be a two way street and let it not be a monologue because teaching is one thing which cannot survive if it is a one way street so please keep all channels of communication open thank you for this opportunity to thank professor Sukhatmi on the behalf of the Aklavya team and professor Fatak who couldn't be here today thank you sir thank you very much it was a great pleasure listening to you as usual professor Gayatundi thank you very much for making the time and professor Vedula thank you so much for coming here I request you to join us for tea outside thank you so much


I'm the CEO of Forrester Research based in Cambridge, Massachusetts, and we are a research company that does research all over the world on technology, and we also gather data on technology and consumers. And I'm very happy that the World Economic Forum has invited me to be your host this morning. Our topic is digital in Asia, and it is a very, very large topic. We could maybe go all morning on this topic, but we will try and address this in approximately one hour. I think you all know, we all understand that digital is becoming a critical element and component of every nation's economy and a critical component of the world economy. I'll make a statement which you may not agree with, but I don't believe any nation can actually move forward unless it is truly advanced in digital. So we will talk about consumers. We will talk about large companies and how they manage technology. We will talk about the changes coming in communications, and that will have a very interesting one hour for you. I'm going to give you a warning that I'm going to introduce everyone in a moment, but after I introduce everyone, I'm going to ask the audience what you want to learn today. So prepare that question, and I'll come back to you in a moment, but I want to introduce our panelists. To my left is Zhang Zhaowang, and he is the chairman of China Mobile. He is running the largest mobile company in the world with 600 million subscribers. So thank you for being here. Appreciate it. And sitting to his left is Tetsuo Yamakawa, and Tetsuo is the vice minister for policy coordination in the Ministry of Internal Affairs and Communications in Japan. And his background is in broadcasting. Thank you for being here. Michelle Guthrie is head of strategy for Google in Asia, and she told me that she used to work at News Corporation, where you were head of ethics, right? I was kidding. How does he know about that actually? Oh, you were okay. You bailed at just the right time. And then to her left is Takeshi Tetsuno, who is a professor at Keio University, but you probably know him better because he was at Dokomo, and he was the inventor of iMODE at Dokomo. And then finally, Suhas Gopanath is a CEO and chairman of Globals, an outsourcing company based in India, which he started at the very old age of 14. And your parents gave you a bigger allowance, and that allowed you to fund the corporation, I think, but it's great to have you here today. So these are our panelists. I'd like to now ask the audience, what do you want to learn in this one hour? We'll take just a few ideas out there. If there's microphones, anybody want to put their hand up? What do you want to learn today? Yeah, right here. A short run time from the National University of Singapore. I'm particularly interested in balance. It seems quite clear that digital technologies is going to transform the way we live, the way we operate businesses, make it easier, faster, better. But how do we manage the downsides in terms of security, confidentiality, and even maybe the impact it can have on social behavior and social norms? Thank you. Excellent question. Thank you. Something else someone wants to learn here? Yeah. I'd like to know about cloud computing. It has great potentials, and it's already become a hot topic. Cloud computing is the direction of our application in terms of its combination with mobile technologies. What are the bottlenecks, including security, disaster recovery, etc. And in this process, in terms of industry application and enterprise application, we seem to have a long way ahead. Thank you. Actually, yeah, you're here. Yes, my name is Wim Sveldin. I'm with Alcatel Lucent. The question for the panel is, do the panelists believe that Asia can really lead in the digital world? And if so, how many years would it take, what would be the time frame for Asia to become a leader in digital? Good question. Two more. Then we'll get going here. Right here. Just maybe two more. Hi, I'm Stephen Priestle, representing Niveau and using cloud computing business. My question is about maturity of market. Did the panel think it's the case that, especially the developing part of Asia, is actually at an advantage because it skipped the early part of digital development and gone straight into 2.0 on social media? So it didn't have to go through the early stage. Therefore, it may be more advanced than the second stage. Right here. Right here. Thank you. My name's Chandru Naya. This is not meant to be a trick question, but I'd like a definitive answer about, what's the percentage of the internet that constitutes pornography and can the good guys at Google do something about it? What was the first part of the question? What part of the internet constitutes pornography? I've had various answers about 60%, 70%. So I'm interested in what's the role of the state, but can the good guys at Google do something about it? I think it's algorithms. Okay. Great question. Thank you very much. That's a great start for us. So I want to now turn to the panelists, and I'm now going to do probably the smallest and least scientific survey ever of digital in Asia. And I'm going to ask each of our panelists what they personally use in digital. First question, and the second question is, what do you expect to be using in two years? Chinza, kick that off. What do you personally use? In your home and with you, in work? Okay. Yeah. Yes, myself, I have five devices for mobile phone. You have five mobile phones? Five mobile phones, but it is my profession. I not only use mobile phones to get information, I use that to try our network quality. So sometimes when I'm in a car. So the five phones ring? Yeah, I always make the phones connected to check the quality. So I'm exceptional. So we're having a race to see who's most connected here. He's in the lead. Tetsuo. Well, my background is broadcasting, so I enjoy broadcasting every day. Well, in Japan we use the ISDBT mode, digital broadcasting format. And it is very clear and we can enjoy the clear images and very good sound. And actually we use internet, well, entertainment for all kinds of entertainment we can use in the internet. And I'm one of it. OK, Michelle? Well, number one, it's my Android. A few of us went out for dinner last night and it was, OK, where's the restaurant, what's good to eat there, so that we make sure that we order the right thing. And then I'm pretty old fashioned as well in just sort of having 14 years in television. So I'm probably the only mother that encourages her kids to watch television. So I still watch a lot of cable TV, particularly HD channels. I think the quality is extraordinary. Are you reading fewer magazines and newspapers? No, no, I do read newspapers and magazines and actually not on the phone or on a tablet. I travel a lot. I'm based in Singapore but cover Asia. So normally I'll carry New Yorker magazines. I save them up, weekend FT and sort of take them on planes and then leave them behind. But you have a Chromebook, right? Yes, I do. I'm testing a Chromebook. And you have an Apple device? I do. I have a MacBook as well. That's allowed at Google? OK. That is allowed. That is allowed. Takeshi? Yes. All my secret is inside this phone. All my secret is inside this phone. When I access it to the internet, I use email and all the hidden phone book is inside. And with my fingerprint authentication, I can find out my girlfriend's name but my wife cannot find out. So all my secrets is inside. So everything's in that phone? Yes, plus wallet. I can pay money by this and the home key, key to my house is here. It's outside of the phone. I couldn't develop a special service like that. But everything is in my phone. And recently, revolution in my life is iPad. By having a tablet, computer, I decided not to take PC anymore. So everything is done by iPad and this phone. So your PC is gone, iPad over? Yes. I have PC but in my house. But not when you travel. OK. In my case, I mainly use smart phone and an iPad right now. So I usually use a PC aggressively but of course because of the purpose, especially to access a CRM system, so to access my mails, I'm quite comfortable with a tablet, PC and a smart phone. So how many iPads up here? How many iPads? OK. By the way, when the iPad was announced at Davos two years ago, that was in Switzerland. We all got to you like this. We said we'll never use that. We don't need that thing. We all had PCs. Who would ever use an iPad? Just to show you how brilliant we were. OK. Let's go to our first question. Let's move away from consumers. Thank you for introducing yourselves digitally to us. So at Forrester, we spend lots of time with very large corporations. And we spend lots of time with CIOs and enterprise architects and large companies. The basic foundation of digital is how large organizations manage digital. That's large companies and also large entities within the government. In the U.S. we think, and we look at our research, we think that Europe is about two years behind the U.S. Europe is about two years behind the U.S. in managing technology and Asia is about three to four years behind in managing technology in large organizations. So, Suhas, you have a number of clients who are domestic in India. You also have clients in Europe and the U.S. What do you think about that statement? Yeah, I feel those CIOs in India are certainly, like, haven't got mature to this extent how it is in a western country. So, when we work with large and even small and medium size enterprises, we've always seen that the CIOs are mainly focusing on all those areas only when the management has taken initiative. So, we've seen that the majority of the Indian CIOs of small and medium size enterprises have not come up with their own initiatives and it's very unfortunate that at times in terms of the technology that's been adopted in enterprises, it's still very obsolete. So, because it's high time that, of course, in an emerging country like India, we start upgrading the technology which has been adopted. So, I find it very hard to sell to the CIOs in India. Yeah, so CIOs have to rise up in India. Exactly. They're too low a level. Yeah. Any other comments about this topic? Michelle, I don't know if you deal with... Yeah, you know, I think for us, one of the issues that we see across Asia is really the importance of SMEs. Small and medium size businesses across Asia really drive so much economic growth and economic activity. Actually, McKinsey came out with a study sort of maybe a year or two ago that surveyed about 5,000 SMEs. And essentially, those ones that have a web presence have two times the share of revenue from exports. Twice the level of jobs created and they grow twice as strongly as those that don't have a web presence. So, I think that increasingly SMEs are leading some of the way in terms of really getting at that web presence. Will they have the ability to manage the technology well? That's the question. That's why the cloud is important, right? I mean, I think that in order to scale the ability to have digital services be accessible by SMEs, it doesn't make sense to have your own IT person, your own data center, it just doesn't. So, the take up of cloud services is really sort of a key component of SMEs really being able to take advantage of it. So, there was a question, which is a good one, which said maybe Asia gets to skip over the old stuff and go right to the new stuff. That new stuff could be cloud. Absolutely, absolutely. Absolutely. And mobile. I spend a lot of time in Indonesia and you're not going to have fiber to the home in Indonesia. You just not. And you don't need it. Essentially, the level of data usage on mobile is extraordinary and they really haven't rolled out 3G yet. And people are accessing it through feature phones. So, you can see that there's tremendous demand but people are figuring it out based on the existing level of technology and making it work. So, Jin Zhao, if you look at the CIO of China Mobile, is that CIO a powerful CIO, powerful executive at the company? We think we are an IT company, a telecom operator. So, CIO becomes more important than others and it reminds me of other issues. You know, digital technology has changed the way we live, changed the way we work and even changed the way we operate our business. And not only the people don't know how to do that and even it confused the company itself.  I don't think so. I don't think we overuse digital technology. And what is the problem? The problem is we need to change ourselves for our operation. For example, there are many new things we have to face, the convergence and the management and the protection of privacy. So, we will give those people more rights, more responsibility to do that. So, you see that CIO is rising, at least in your organization. Any thoughts on the CIO and internal management of technology? One thing I can say is, in Asia, liquidity of CIOs or top management are less than US. So, the evolution of technology is so high and if CIO stays more than 10 years in the same company, his mindset would be delayed. That's why in the US companies, those are very changing their jobs very rapidly. And they are trying to bring new things always. So, that's the kind of difference, I believe. I think this is the kind of digital divide between consumers and the industry side. The industry side is always behind in Asian countries. So, we might agree that then Asia is behind in technology management. Someone brought up the question of bottlenecks here. So, perhaps that's a bottleneck for Asia, that the management of technology in large corporations and perhaps in government. So, connected to this issue of technology management is the leadership of companies and organizations, the CEOs. Now, the top 100 companies in the world, the average age of the CEO is 59. So, that person went to college or university without a computer. They had a typewriter and they had something called Whiteout, which I won't get into. So, they did not use computers as kids. But last year, we observed that there became a CEO of one of those companies who did have an Apple II when he was younger. So, we now see a change coming in the leadership of these companies where they have perhaps grown up with technology. So, how do we see the leadership of corporations and government in Asia in how they see technology? And I'll ask you a very simple question. Does the CEO of your organization use e-mail? Or Facebook. Or what, e-mail, Facebook, or Twitter? Or are they social? So, any... Yeah. Well, our ex-minister used the Internet and of course in the government, especially in Japan, their background is laws and economics. So, not a technical background. But it is very important to contact with people, massive people, even in the government. So, in order to make the best usage of the technology, rules and regulations are very important and we have to change our style. Well, our way of life to make the best usage of the technology. So, even the CIO and the top management. And the CEO as well. Yeah, that's right. Exactly the same. Any other comments here? We might imagine that most CEOs of most large companies in Asia do not use e-mail. I'm making this up, but I want to see how you react to this. Don't use e-mail and don't use Twitter, I think. Are you agreeing this? Another bottleneck perhaps. I'm not so sure. I guess we work with a lot of partners across the region. And I think from the top down, we see an incredible, and particularly in emerging markets, from the top down, this really sort of keen determination to actually get users where they are. And users where they are are here in cyber cafes and operating in a social world. So, it is very much trying to go after the users and the consumers and figuring out where you can reach them, both from an advertising side or selling them services side. And that's increasingly digital. So you're not as gloomy here? Yeah. You think the executives, the CEOs, are slowly moving up? Absolutely, because the consumers are forcing them to. I mean, that's where the activity is.  This is society. Go ahead. I'll give you the example of China Mobile. China Mobile is a large company in Asia, across, and we have half a million employees, and we cover 98% of the population for our network. And we have no other choice for the ordinary business work. We have to use network. So, the total office process is network-based. We try to create an environment of office for paperless. And so, all employees, all leaders, all young, they use computer, they use mobile phone, they use tablets. It's become very, very popular. And this starts from the top with you and you're pushing this, everyone should do this. That's true. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. So how about the view from India, maybe? Yeah. According to my experience, of course, the CEOs in India are, of course, enabled with technology connected. But I feel the setback with those CEOs is that, of course, the management is not very supportive because the management sometimes takes the CEOs to be the procurement officers. Yeah. So, it's very unfortunate that they don't understand the CEO. It's actually the part of the management and it is very, very important that the CEOs are involved in the strategic decision-making of the organization. So, I've seen management who approach the CEOs only when their CRM or their ERP system fails and, of course, you need the CEO to fix it. So, I feel that it has to be, it has to be initiated from the management to understand that the CEO is not only a procurement officer but he is actually the part of the management and he has to be involved in the strategic decision-making. So, more enlightenment is needed. More enlightenment. Right. Yeah. So, I'm going to do a quick round the horn here. Can each of you name a company in your country or maybe any Asian country that you think is best using digital as an example, an amazing example of using digital well? So, an example in the US would be Amazon as an example. Amazon has used digital to now become the dominant retailer in the United States. What would be your one example of companies in Asia? I mean, I've got an example and it just kind of shows you, I guess, what's possible. It's a bank in Australia called U-Bank and it's a bank without a branch. So, it doesn't have a branch at all. It only has online customer support 24-7 through Skype and through the phone. Where is it based? Which country? In Australia. Australia. And after three years, it has 100,000 customers. It's the 12th largest retail deposit bank in Australia with no physical presence. You know, that's pretty extraordinary in terms of you look at the physical infrastructure that most banks have and your ability to sort of bypass that is pretty wild. Good example. Other ones? I think HTC. HTC in Taiwan would be a great digital company example because actually, you know, they started to produce phones just three years ago, four years ago and now their market cap is more than Nokia. They revolutionized the process of manufacturing phones and the legacy from manufacturers cannot keep up with their speed. So, I think HTC. A company using digital to move very fast? To move very fast in terms of manufacturing phones. Any other examples? In India, I could immediately think of a website called MakeMyTrip.com which is a travel portal because I can imagine all those years where my dad was very hesitant to use his credit card online because he had apprehensions to use e-commerce for transactions but when MakeMyTrip started to enable the Indian consumers to book their flights or trains online, I think it has really opened up opportunities for e-commerce companies in India because it itself set as a benchmark and apart from the Indian consumers it has also encouraged entrepreneurship. So, probably somebody in a village who has access to the internet connectivity so he's invested on one laptop and he has got internet connectivity so he himself is acting as this agent for MakeMyTrip.com so all the villagers who have no access to connectivity but if they want to book flight tickets or bus tickets he acts as the agent. So... Good example. Yeah. I don't... Well, it is very difficult to name the one country from the viewpoint of the government but one example is Rakuten I suppose that's who had the top share and e-commerce in Japan and the founder of Rakuten is Mr. Mikitani and he's very famous for because he introduced formal language in the company English, not Japanese. So, it is very difficult for us Japanese to make the best use of internet because you... well, you have to use English not Japanese. So, Japanese is isolated language. So... This is interesting though. Because he used English as his language that enables him to be more digital the company to be more digital. Yeah. Did they get that right? That's right. We can connect all over the world in English but it is very difficult for us to make the... for example, Facebook to connect English or the United States. So... Well, one example is Rakuten the formal language is English. So... Good example. You can't use your own company as an example. No, I can't do that. No, I know. So many examples for that and because many company in some sector, some industry are based on network, based on digital technology. So, I don't name a specific company I just give you example in China that is network shopping. Network shopping now is very popular in China. Many young people they don't go to malls they don't go to market just buy anything on network. And I didn't understand I asked one of my young employee why you buy something just from network he told me if I buy a shirt I need to pay from the supermarket I need to pay 500 yuan but if I buy the same shirt or network only 300, that's the reason. Okay, so it's not a company but a sector. So, I'm going to take a veer here quick fast question for Tetsuo in the tsunami crisis how was digital used during the crisis and what lessons did you learn about digital in that crisis? Okay, taking this opportunity first I would like to express our sincere appreciation for the support and the confidence from all over the world and at that time mobile phones and the fixed phones are not available because of the traffic is too large but we can use internet we can use Twitter and in order to get very detailed information these kind of measures were very had played a very, very important role where abouts and where you can go and where is the safe place and where you can get food. So the technology that is being used was Twitter mainly? Yeah, that is very important. So Twitter was the critical technology for you? Yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah. Three years ago there was a very big quick in Sichuan province and we found when people retreated from a building the first thing is to take their mobile phone to try to get information try to give information to their family members. Yeah, yeah. Sorry, what we found in Japan was we launched Person Finder in Japan to have people log where they were again using internet because people were not sure couldn't get hold of friends and one of the things that a lot of our users did was actually take photographs of the lists of people in various shelters upload them onto PICASA and then volunteers would essentially turn that into digital name files that we could upload which was extraordinary. You use the technology that you have. The information from the refugees are integrated to the Google and it was, well, it really played a great role as well. So Twitter, Google? And the very funny, different perspective I found was nuclear plant accident actually and after the nuclear plant accident so many people started to learn nuclear things. Actually, by net, internet. Now in Japan many experts on nuclear plant are existing there and by using net you can learn a lot and sometimes you can know much better than the specialists at least the government officials. So so many amateur professionals amateur professionals about the nuclear plants are now existing in Japan. That's a very funny perspective. Okay, so let's turn it to consumers. I'm going to give you a little bit of boring data here from Forrester but I think it may set the stage for us. Forrester believes that tech spending in Asia will grow approximately 14% in 2011 to around $500 billion. However, we are forecasting that in 2012 tech spending in Asia will drop to 6%. That's a major drop from 14% to 6%. So we believe that tech spending will be dropping here. Now let's turn to consumers. If you look at PC adoption 90% of adults in Metro China now have a personal computer and 36% of adults in Metro India have personal computers and both of these numbers are up significantly in 2011. Online, 88% of Metro Chinese now use the internet at least monthly. Up 13% from 2010 and 34% of adults in Metro India are now using the internet or now online monthly. That's up 9%. And then the last is the fastest growth is in mobile internet usage. 45% of Metro Chinese are online via a mobile device at least monthly. That's up 21% from 2010 and 11% of Metro Indians access the mobile net monthly up from just 1% in 2010. So fastest growth now is in India. Japan saw the biggest jump in mobile internet usage as now 57% of adults now have access and that's up 24% from last year. So we see growth in PC, we see growth in online and we see the fastest growth in mobile usage. So I want to ask the entire group the question as we look forward over the next two to three years what is the one change in consumer behavior that you think will be most evident, most important, the one change that we will see let's lengthen this out, maybe not two to three years let's say the next one to five years. How will the consumer change most, what will be the major consumer change that you'll see? You're at Google so you've got to go first. I think the thing for me is that the next 100 million users coming onto the internet in Asia are going to primarily be accessing first on mobile and it may be only on mobile. It may be that they don't migrate to PC because as these devices get better and better and smarter and smarter and they're mobile then I need a PCY. So you're saying the next big change is no PCs? Well I think the next big change is really the primary access point for the internet is really going to be mobile. So moves from PC to mobile, great one, others, yeah. I think a touch panel would be really widely used everywhere and on my kids, three years old dollar they were thinking all the displays should be a touch panel. So now she's touching all the TV screens saying, you know, don't move, don't move, why? Like that. And of course Windows 8 is touch. Yeah, so all the PCs, smartphones, tablets, everything would be touch based. So move away from PC, moving to touch, any other ideas? I feel in India I think the future would certainly be in the mobile by which I feel the financial inclusion and the inclusion for education would be through mobile itself to reach at the bottom of the pyramid or the bottom of the billions. So I think within the next five years we may not see many number of ATM machines but I think the ATM machines would actually be replaced with mobile phones. So increasing mobile deeper into the population? Yeah, others? Idea to point out the negative side but maybe all of the people will face the privacy problem. Yeah. So what does that mean, the privacy problem? Well, for example, the convergence of technology. For example GPS and the mobile phones. Well, you can specialize where are the people now and what is the people doing now? So, of course, some people can use it in a very appropriate manner but there is many people with LDA and digital divide and we're not so good at using this kind of cutting-edge technology. So, some people are... because some people doesn't want to know where they are but everyone has the possibility to know what they are doing now. So let me ask you a question about privacy. Do you think that Asians will be more possessive of their privacy than Europeans or Americans or others? Well, there is no difference between Asians and Europeans I suppose because I know, for example, in the UK the privacy problem is a very important problem as well and we are discussing about the internet, that kind of problem, but I don't think there is no difference between Asians. So you don't think any difference? I will answer your original question about the trends. I think we will have more application for mobile use and we try to have a ubiquitous network. How to realize, how to make it ubiquitous I think wireless is a very good solution to do that. I suppose today here in this room some people are using mobile phones to have live broadcasting for the situation of this meeting but now they use the micro-blog technology. But today they just to have some text and picture transmission simultaneous. But I think for the next generation of mobile technology we call it LTE, people can use their mobile phone to have a video transmitting simultaneously. Real-time. So more mobile. Kind of amazing statistic from Forester. In Indonesia and the Philippines are the fourth and sixth largest Facebook users in the world. And this is for you, Jin Sao. How pervasive will social computing become in Asia? When I say social, we think of it primitively today as Twitter, Facebook, etc. How pervasive will it be in Asia? Yes, of course. We didn't expect it is so popular in China. You know, in China there are many SNS. For example, I mentioned before the micro-blog. It is a Twitter similar application and so many people are using that. Even for these summer hours. I think this is the first world economic new championship meeting here. And the contents are transmitted so fast at the same time.  And I don't know the exact data. Maybe more than 200 million people are using micro-blog. And also we have some chatting, you know, QQ, Tencent chatting. It is very popular. And I think we also have a very similar program like Facebook that is Ren Ren. And it is also very popular. So this trend we think is unstoppable, rising fast. Everyone, no one is disagreeing with this, I don't think, right? Yeah, okay. Let's take a question from the audience. Yeah, right here. Hi, I'm Aaron Back from Dow Jones. I wanted to ask about what I think is sort of an elephant in the living room here, which is the role of government controls in Asia, particularly China. If we're talking about whether Asia can lead the world in being digital, some of the technologies that we're name-checking in this conversation, like Twitter and Facebook, are not available where we're sitting. So is that irrelevant? China has its own local champions that are flourishing, as Chairman Wang just mentioned. So is it really irrelevant that there are these controls in this market? Yeah, so you jumped ahead. That was my next on my agenda, but let's take it now. I think it's good. Government and digital, government and social. Let's open it up. Anyone, Takeshi? It's a really difficult, disputable topic, but before going to China issue, I can take up an example of Japan. Actually, Japan was far ahead of mobile technology, actually. Almost all the phones, all the phones can be accessible to the Internet. But actually, back to four years ago, government intervened to the business model of operators, actually. After that, the speed of innovation was slowed down. But I'm not sure if this was bad or good, because by taking the operators' power down, there were opportunities for newcomers to jump in, especially holding companies like Google and the other Internet players came into the telecom industry. So I cannot say the government intervention would be bad, but the balance would be really, really delicate. And at least the government officials and the political sectors have to understand the pros and cons of government intervention. And I'm not sure China, but because of China firewall, so many Chinese companies are now doing lots of variety of services, actually. And sometimes it's far advanced than the global service. So I'm going to pin you down here. Do you think there should be more government involved in digital or less government involved in digital? I prefer less, but sometimes the Internet ecosystem can adopt any kind of government intervention into the ecosystem, and some new commons would generate something new. So if the government were to intervene, Internet may go around them. Exactly. What about in India? Sure. Of course, in India, the government intervention in terms of the Internet is extremely very minimal. So in fact, government itself has actually started to adopt Twitter and Facebook to address the citizens' concerns. So it makes it more social. So as a citizen, if I have a concern, I can go on to the Facebook fan page of the problem of ministry, and I can express my concern. So they're enabling more Internet? Yeah, I think government should not act as a barrier, but they need to start adopting digital and starting to engage the users as well. Okay. I agree with what Sahas said. Essentially, anytime there are barriers towards allowing the Internet to work as an interoperable platform around the world, there are issues. Whether it's as simple as requiring a data center in a particular country, I know that in India, RIM had a lot of difficulties in India and Indonesia in terms of requiring RIM to actually have a data center in those places. So again, it doesn't help when you have artificial barriers to stop the Internet really operating on a global basis. So less government, less government, less government. Get near. From my perspective, because we are operators and we have our requirements, the operation is changing and we are facing very new things, for example, convergence. Now, we have a lot of convergence examples. For example, when you do mobile TV, mobile newspaper, that is telecom plus media. And when we do mobile payment, that is telecom plus finance. And when we do mobile games, mobile music, that means telecom plus entertainment. And for electronic reading, that's telecom plus publishing. And so we need a new specification. We need new rules because it is not only a specific sector can finish all jobs. So we hope the government will issue some new rules, new policies to support those convergence. That's in my perspective. So when you say new laws, you mean less laws? Less regulation, do you think? Or different regulation? Because it is very new. New regulation, I mean. Hopefully less. Because in order to make the best usage of the internet or a new technology, sharing ideas is very important and sharing knowledge is very important. But there are so many problems that we have to deal with. Privacy or the cyber attack or IPL. Well, so every country has their rules and regulations. And the respect of law is very important point. So it is somewhat incompatible demand. But we need some kind of golden harmony between those two. Someone asked a question about balance. So what you are saying, Tetsu, the government should be involved in balance. If I add an observation here, because of this internet regulation in mainland, I see that it has also encouraged entrepreneurship because for the fact that you have got hundreds of local entrepreneurs who started to build their own versions of Facebook or Twitter or even the YouTube here. And in terms of actually its user base, it is almost equivalent to those user base in the western country. So one way it has an advantage to the local entrepreneurs because they see it as an opportunity. So as soon as the firewall is introducing new website to be blocked, so you have an entrepreneur who opens its local version here. So creating more entrepreneurship almost. Another question from the audience. Yeah, right here. Thank you. Thank you. We have been talking about the consumer or the demand side of the technology. I would like to hear some discussions on the supply side of it. And my question is whether Asia will become the most competitive in the supply side of this. Will that surpass that of America? Asia is abundant in the very talented labor and that's very important for the supply side of the digital technology. So this is where I was going next. Thank you very much. Yes. So I'm going to ask it in this way. Could Steve Jobs have grown up in India or China? No. And come out of India and China. Why? No. The issue is we are talking about Asia but the Asian market is so fragmented. So in China, so many Chinese companies are powerful but they're only in China. They cannot go global. And Japan as well. The market size of Japan is small but small enough for several companies. And Indonesia, very different. So each market... But China is a very large unfragmented market. Even only in China, you can be big enough. And the liquidity of money and the human resources would be limited into one country. But in the US case, you can get all the talent from all over the world like Google. My ex-staff is working for Google. So many people. So you're saying we couldn't have Steve Jobs in Asia because not enough money. What else? What are the reasons? I mean, the base market for humans and the money, capital, would be limited into one country. You could do fragmented. Other comments here. Why can't Steve Jobs come out of Asia? Because of the ecosystem itself. Because in India even now, actually when I started my company I couldn't find an investor or I couldn't find a partner. So I think the ecosystem is actually missing in India. So if you look at Silicon Valley you have the ecosystem of academia with the Stanford University or access to the university, access to the research center, access to the venture capitalists or investors. So I strongly feel that the ecosystem was missing. But how Steve Jobs had been to India for his yoga classes but unfortunately it was not for his research. So we're missing ecosystem. It's too fragmented. Not enough money. Other comments?  And I guess, my sort of perspective is that number one, things are changing so fast. As you were saying three years ago, HTC didn't make mobile phones, right? Nokia was king of the hill. That changed actually very, very fast. So I wouldn't preclude anything. I think also the advantage of actually coming out of Asia is it's really hard. That operating in India or Indonesia with limited resources and very low revenue per user, it's tough. But if you manage to do it, why can't you launch that model in Africa or Latin America or actually at the low end market in developed markets? So I'm a great believer in sort of bottom of the pyramid. I do think that the power of innovation around business models, you look at the online games market in China.  But they innovated to say, well, why can't we have an online system where the revenue is actually generated by selling items in games where the cost is kind of zero in delivering that. So you think Steve Jobs could come out of Asia? My answer is yes. We can have our Steve Jobs. Because in China, in Asia, we have very, very large market and big market demands. We have enough money to support that. So many capital now are in Asia, in China. We have a lot of talents. So why don't we can have some innovation? And I think there is, for our industry, there is opportunity. When we talk about 3G, people say, what is 3G? 3G is smartphone, our consumer said. But no, 4G is coming. When I visited the United States, Verizon now already launched 4G LTE technology. But some American customer asked the question, what is 4G? What is different between 3G and 4G? It's very difficult to answer that question. So we need the same question in China, in Asia. So what we need today is to create, to invent a new device to tell our people, that is 4G and we need our Steve Jobs. Now, I'm supposed to be the facility, but I'll make a statement here, that I think the major issue why we may not see Steve Jobs for a while is cultural, but that's another hour that we could spend on that, which we're not going to do today. So we only have five minutes left. It feels like we've been here for minutes, because this has been such an interesting topic. But I want each of you to give one piece of advice for everyone in this room about how to navigate the next five years of digital transformation in Asia. Maybe it's not advice, maybe it's your one observation as to what will happen in the next five years in Asia, in digital. I think some of the applications, digital applications in Asia is far advanced compared to the US and Europe, especially like e-money, electric money. In Hong Kong, Singapore, and in Japan, majority of the people are using e-money, and this is really convenient. But because of the fragmentation of the market and because of the many things, it's not global yet. But maybe within five years, we're going to find out something global application from Asia. So you think e-money, in fact, may start here and go around the rest of the world. Great, excellent observation. Other observations? For me, it's mobile first. A number of the innovations we've launched have actually been mobile first. So we brought in voice search to the phone, because particularly if you're sitting in the back of a taxi in India, it's hard to type. And so if you're searching for something, why not be able to speak it in? We actually have now moved that over to the desktop. But it was essentially a mobile application first. So I think, particularly in Asia, think about how you solve problems on mobile first. So stay centered on mobile. Yeah, that's it. Digital technology has the possibility to mitigate digital divide in Asia. For example, the mobile phone, the penetration rate of a mobile phone is very fast, compared with fixed phone. Well, of course, we can use it. We can set it very easily. And the investment cost is not so large. So they can mitigate digital divide in Asia. That is very important. So we will see the digital divide mitigated by mobile. Yeah, that's right. I feel in the next five years, we would see more e-commerce transactions, especially in an emerging country like India, which was very conservative about the usage of online payments. And at the same time, I think internet would be more local. So currently it's more international. So you've got more international content. So probably to search restaurants or to access to your local information, you would see more users using the internet for your local purpose. So in the rural environments, access to local. Yeah. Very quick answer. I think in Asia we have a lot of things in common with other places. But we have our unique characteristics. We have our unique advantages and opportunities. And for example, the application of mobile phone in Asia, people like to use mobile phone for games. It is different from other places. So we need to use those kind of new opportunities. And I hope the vendors, the software developers, the operators and the consumers can make more contributions to build digital Asia in the future. Excellent. So I'm sorry to get to more questions. This is a massive topic which we had a lot of very valuable thoughts from everyone on the panel. Thank you all for coming. So I want to thank Jin Zhao. Thank you for being here. Thank you very much, Michelle. Excellent. So thank you to this panel. Excellent.