Hey everybody today. We're here debating the black pill and we are starting right now with wheat waffles opening statement Thanks so much wheat waffles for being with us. The floor is all yours Okay, I was getting a little bit confused there, but I guess I'm free to start now Right. So the black pill, you know my channel and a few other guys in the same space I would say that we're mainly trying to bring three main points at a table You know when it comes to women's attraction Dating like our philosophy kind of revolves around these three points and the first one the first pillar is Hypergamy, so it's the idea that women only date up They only want to date a guy that is at the very least equal if not higher In terms of SMV than themselves And that's the first tenet the second one is the importance of look so When I'm talking about hypergamy It's mainly in the dimension that women want to date guys that are equal or better looking than themselves So I'm not necessarily talking about money confidence or status, you know things like that not that those things don't come into the equation they do You know, they do have at least some You know portion of your SMV is made up of that stuff But for the most part your looks is the main like you know doing most of the legwork in terms of your SMV So most women want to date guys that are equal if not more attractive than them And then the final tenet is the importance of genetics. So There's one more extension when I'm talking about the importance of looks. I'm less so talking about Your like facial hair your grooming your haircut Even physique, I do think physique is really important That's probably the most important thing after the genetic factors if not on par But for the most part, I believe the genetic factors of looks are the most important So your face and your height namely That's not to say that your physique isn't that important I probably say that comes in a close third if I had to put specific numbers on it I would say it's 50 face 30 heights and then 20 body You know, but you can even see by those numbers that the genetic factors are the most important So just to summarize again the three main points I'm trying to bring to the table On my channel and in these debates is one Hypergamy women want to date up to the importance of looks and three the importance of genetics I think that's Gives everyone a clear picture of what I'm talking about and I'll hand it over to the next You got it. Thank you very much for that opening We waffles and want to let you know folks We hope you're welcome or we hope you feel welcome no matter what walk of life you are from Black pill red pill wash pill you name it. We are glad that you are here. This is modern day debate I'm your host James Coons and want to say we are absolutely thrilled for our upcoming in-person Conference as you can see at the bottom right of your screen debate con 3.1 is happening happening Saturday April 22nd in Fort Worth, Texas You don't want to miss those debates. It's gonna be epic So hit that subscribe button as those debates will be on this channel and with that Thank you very much for being with us as well. Vosh the floor is all yours Yeah, so I guess the the problem that we're going to have from the onset is that I don't Necessarily think I disagree with a lot of the central tenants that we waffles has put forward here The problem is is that these characteristics are ubiquitous between men and women not just something that men Experience from women Obviously, of course, men care a lot about women's appearances, you know It's not as though You know all men are like totally ambivalent saints who just care about a woman's personality and the looks are totally secondary like we place a very high emphasis on A woman's appearance and a large part of that is genetic. It's true We don't care as much about women's height as a General characteristic of their appearance, but there are other things like their face symmetry The strength of their jaw the recess of their chin things that affect men and women both when it comes to their perception of beauty That we absolutely do care about I agree that we have some unfair and selfish Tendencies and biases when it comes to dating people, but I don't I don't like the black pill rhetoric because For one Nothing's guaranteed I've known in my life plenty of people who I would consider unattractive and I'm into guys too So I'm qualified to judge who nonetheless You know shack up with some impressively attractive women And I know guys who are like really hot and doing pretty well for themselves and are pretty, you know Like tall who aren't able to get a girlfriend Mostly because they're kind of like weird and repellent. They're not good at opening up to people Usually that is the big problem. By the way, it's not that guys are too weird girls Don't mind weird guys for the most part. I think for the most part weirdness is like an over Attributed cause of relationship problems. I think it's actually more an inability to open up or be emotionally clear with others I think that tends to bite men in the ass a lot more because guys are kind of taught, you know, like women will be super Put off or Disinterested or creeped out if you share your feelings with them. So yeah, no, um, to the extent that there are Bits of unfairness. I fully agree, but I don't think it warrants like a black pill attitude towards the issue Thank you very much for that opening as well And folks, I want to say if you have enough a question Feel free to fire it into the old live chat if you tag me with at modern day debate That helps me to see your questions and also want to remind you first that our gaster linked in the description So if you want to hear more just keep that in mind and that includes at the podcast as modern day debate does put every debate On our podcast within 24 hours of the show being live Where we link our guests there as well If you haven't yet pull out your favorite podcast app and find modern day debate and follow us there So you can listen on the go with that. Thanks very much wash and weed waffles. The floor is all yours for open dialogue I was getting confused there if uh you was gonna talk first or If I was going to say the first first things Did you have anything to respond initially to the points I said? Nothing besides the opening that I love it Okay, fair enough. Yeah. Well, I guess I'll kick off then I wish I had my phone with me straight away because You did say a lot of things and I only realized halfway through that You know, you're making a lot of points. So Uh, I was only able to go off memory basically I might need to ask for a few reminders The uh points that you addressed That's fine. I actually try to open up my notes app to write down the points you were making But then windows 11 denied me the ability to search within my own apps So I just kind of like also tried to commit the memory. So we're actually on an equal playing field here Yeah, okay.  I'm pan. I'm into both It into both what's it by what's pan? Yeah, like a bisexual And what was pan? Why did you say that? It's uh, it's the zoomer term for bisexual Oh, is it? Okay. Okay. Yeah. Um, and then you said that because Your pan, um You're into guys, you know Um, what guys are attractive You know, if a guy is attractive or not and if they if their attractiveness warrants them getting girls But I don't think that's a particularly good argument because there's a difference between the female gaze And the male gaze like what is attractive in the gay community? isn't necessarily attractive in the uh You know straight community Like, you know, just to give an example to be honest, you probably know more about this at me But I'm pretty sure um in the gay community Like it's a similar dynamic going on in the straight community um There's the masculine role and then there's the feminine role and the masculine role A person in the in a gay relationship like he might actually be quite attractive to a lot of Women as well, even though he's not necessarily trying to date them. But as for the uh, you know Feminine role men in the gay community. I doubt that they would be very attractive to um a lot of women Well, you know, I'm saying do you see my point? No, I get your point. I agree. There's not a full parallel though Um, I do think there's a bit more crossover than a lot of people think Um, it is true that like it really depends on the market you're in right like for example if um I'm masculine if I went over and like tried tinder dating in like, I don't know Some rural part of Kentucky and all the girls over there were like yee-haw howdy howdy overalls farmer girls, you know They would probably find my city slick in ways to be pretty metrosexual for their taste I would probably come off like a huge homo to them Um, I mean, I'm not wearing overalls right now like that on its own is a sign that I love cock, right? At least in their minds Um, there's a lot of culture overlap here. But at the end of the day I really do think that a good personality and like a good attitude can get people really really far and I don't I don't take issue with the idea that there are like biases when it comes to appearance because of course Of course there are right, um, the main issue that I have is the idea that these biases are so overwhelming That they warrant people giving up which is kind of the central tenet of the black pill right like lie down and rot the idea that You know that's a bit of a far-fetched Implication to make that's not Is that not like the central tenet of the black pill? No, no No, that's not even remotely close Not even close to the three things that I stated at the start Um, I'm not sure where you got that idea from the only thing that I can speculate is that From the outside like outsiders who look at the black pill community If you scroll down to the comment section of you know, certain content creators videos You're going to see like those five percent of guys who are like, you know, quite extreme quite nihilistic Like I the way I describe it And there's other people in the space who agree with me on this. There's two types of black billets for the most part Um, you got the loud minority who are like the basement dwellers You know who are spending 10 hours a day on youtube and discord just talking about black pill like, you know, how Like chads get all of the women and you know, you all of that stuff like Basically guys that are quite nihilistic and that's probably only about five to ten percent of the community But then the other 90 percent um, they're like people like me who are actually um, you know A lot of them are actually faring quite well in dating Um, you know, they don't necessarily have any problems and they're not bitter Like they're watching my content and other people in the space's content to learn more about dating to learn more about how it works Then they can use that knowledge In order to better their own chances if you know, I'm saying Like that to put to put it simply like you got the realists and then you got the nihilists Yeah, I I get that but If that's the case if the underlying argument is that people try to date up People can be kind of can can be kind of selfish and shallow. I mean, isn't that ubiquitous?  Um, I think the mainstream and most people are incredibly blue pill And for anyone who doesn't know what blue pill means, it's basically You know the opposite of black pill that you know, it's all of this wishy-washy feel good dating advice That isn't actually tangible Um, and you're saying that most people aren't that but I think that's that is what most people are and that's what the Mainstream wait just one example quickly Most people know the oh no no no no Okay, right the video I uploaded today It's called is beauty really in the eye of the beholder If you ask mom and dad if you ask teachers the mainstream media The vast majority of them is going to say yes, it is beauty isn't it either beholder That goes against exactly what you just said you said that most people will know The uh women want taller guys and better looking guys and men want better looking women Like but if you look at the mainstream, that's just not the case most people in the mainstream Are saying that beauty is in the eye either beholder But I don't think those statements contradict each other Beauty is objectively in the eye of the beholder There's no objective aesthetic for standards But that doesn't mean that people don't have general tendencies and preferences like people for example People tend to prefer aesthetic features. Sorry not aesthetic Aesthetically symmetrical features for the most part we have a bias towards Symmetry when it comes to people's face structure, but not universally There are bits of asymmetry that people can find attractive sometimes. It's like a chipped tooth Sometimes it's like, uh, I know it sounds weird, but some people think like like lazy eyes are quite cute Like if a person has kind of like a like a walled look to them a little bit Like some people find that endearing of seeing people talk about that So that would be like people having subjective preferences that deviate from basically like hard lined biological preferences towards symmetry So in that respect you could simultaneously acknowledge. Okay, like most people care about these things But also, you know, there's a lot of individual variants. I mean god, have you seen Okay, I've never heard of those. I've never heard of those examples that you've given any biological Deformity such as the ones you mentioned there You know like lazy eyes and a chipped tooth. I think that would unanimously be considered unattractive Okay, maybe like zero point one percent because I've never heard those examples And the reasoning is quite simple when you look at evolution because anyone who has these problems You know, it's going to show that they have a less chance of survival um, you know, so that um Like well, you know, that's less You're less likely going to want to reproduce with these people whereas let me just let me just say one more thing But in that I think what you could have used as a better example Is something which is more of a niche like Yeah, this is the part where I do think that looks are subjective and beauty can be in the eye of the beholder But it's still quite limited. It's only like 10 percent. It's when we're talking about these niches because Okay, here's here's a good example like, you know, not all things are like objectively superior in terms of survivability And genetics like some things might be better suited and adapted to one environment Like for example, if you are close to the equator Then you know having more metal in in your skin is better adapted So that might be more attractive in that region But you know the further you go north You know to the poles then that's when fairer skin is going to be better adapted and then that becomes more attractive You know I'm saying so and either one is objectively more attractive It's dependent on how adapted it is to the environment There are internal contradictions in your arguments here that I want to lay out first of all if any number of people Believe that a characteristic that is conventionally unattractive is attractive that is like a deviation from our bias towards symmetry Even like Marilyn Monroe like beauty moles, right? They're considered like a charming flaw a charming defect Additionally, like what we find attractive is heavily socially determined. It's not all evolution Like you can go back through time and see the kinds of people that get painted for example Like more ruben-esque women or if you go back and find like it used to be more attractive for guys to be super super pale Because it means they were wealthy enough. They didn't have to work in the field But nowadays like having a tan means you're wealthy enough to go to a tanning salon But that's not like evolution That's just a trend and a bias in the kinds of appearances that you see demonstrated by the ultra wealthy and media You know when you when you hear about like What a beautiful person is a lot of that is sort of socially informed Look at the difference right now between like what an ideal woman looked like 30 years ago And what one looks like now 30 years ago They were all way fish cocaine addicted blonde white women and then you had sir mixilots, you know seminal thesis Baby got back and now Kardashians are like the apex of modern beauty Evolutionarily nothing changed between now and then it's just a matter of like what social trends we follow there is some You know degree of cultural shift in terms of what determines beauty um, you know, for example, like k-pop You know, that's exploded in the last uh decade or so and you know, there's a lot higher demand for guys who are Asian, you know embracing like the pretty boy like slightly feminized appearance like that's increased Mainly off the back of like k-pop going up You know, so I'm not denying the fact that cultural shift can influence What is deemed attractive to the community at that point? um But you know, you can never forget the biological and evolutionary roots of what makes attractiveness like i'm talking things like symmetry Low body fat percentage clear skin You know a full head of hair, but there are examples of all those things unanimously Yeah, okay. Yeah fair enough.  No, it's no biggest coat. That's not true dog It's not a coat women legit do not care like i'm i'm not built and i've never had an issue Like not once in my life. Um, I guarantee you would have more results if you was lead like if you go Yeah with other guys, uh, no like over like I Very few guys have abs Um, they're really not that common like if you're in college maybe because like young guys that have more free time You have more people who are working out But like once you're in your late 20s to 30s or whatever very very few guys have abs So I don't think women in that environment are like, okay Well, I'll date a guy but only if he has abs because if they did that like they'd be fighting over an incredibly small minority of guys The dad bod love shit You see you see tweets going viral with like a third of a million likes on like girls Thirsting over guys who have kind of like like built shoulders and a dad belly. You know what I mean No, it's it's not true. Like the dad bod thing Uh is is a complete myth. Um, it I'll say my point first, but then I want to give an example On my screen. I'm not sure if I'll be allowed to share my screen I'm not sure if that's the sort of thing that you do on uh these sorts of uh debates But I'll get that example in a sec. It'll take me a couple seconds to find it as well But anyway, my general take on the dad bod thing is that Like if you ask women if they like a dad bod then they'll say like, yeah, of course I do Yeah, um, you know, I like a guy who doesn't take himself too seriously You know, uh, maybe just a little bit of exercise, but he's not in the gym every day Like that's what they'll say You know, and the picture they have in their mind is some guy who actually has a top 20% physique And that's what they think is a dad bod But an actual dad bod is some guy who's got 25% body fat. Um, you know, not in shape Like is drinking 10 beers per week Like it's just not attractive. Like there's a 25 that's not that much That's that's well higher Um, you know fair enough, it might be like average if you look at broader Society like in america the average body fat of the population is probably like 25 or 30% Because there's a lot of overweight and obese people over there, but that doesn't mean it's healthy Like the ideal body fat percentage for guys in terms of objective attractiveness Is but somewhere between 10 and 12% body fat. Okay. Well, look at the models that are getting hired. Um, They're all lean.  No, no, no, no, they would always choose the guy who's lean That's no, that's not true No, but there's a disparity in terms of, um, how much muscle he has So I believe that the average woman, you know, wouldn't want probably as much muscle as say, uh, chris hem's worth But the image that gets tossed around a lot in the community of what women like as an ideal body on a guy Is uh, brad pit from fight club. Yeah, because he's still 10 body fat. He's still 10 body fat Nobody nobody uses that picture Nobody uses that picture of brad pit except men. I have never seen a woman post that picture It's always men going. This is what women like. Trust me. I've been on 4chan. I'm 29 I've been on the internet long enough. I watched fight club when it came out Everyone who posts brad pit is like, yeah, dude. This is what women like go on social media Women are first posting over schlavoise zizek like the women are insane. They're all brain damaged They don't people don't look like brad pit in real life Like one guy does and it's brad pit 30 years ago. Um I the problem that I have is like, this is what I mean about the echo chamber Where like you've worked out a lot because I've seen your videos. You're in really good shape So you're justifying to yourself like, okay. Well, I have to be this or x y Let's be real. No, you don't and no anyone doesn't Um, your body is impressive and you should be proud of it But the problem that I have is this idea that's like a bunch of guys amping themselves up in an echo chamber With like 99.8 view ratios men to women on like Listen, man. This is what women want.  You're like, you're looking at the the difference between me and you I've noticed just in these first Opening minutes is that you're looking at all of these exceptions and I'm looking at the rule Like I'm focusing on the rule. You're focusing on the exceptions Like the if you look at the general rules Um women want guys who are lean With you know, not skinny like have a decent amount of muscle chiseled jawline Full head of hair clear skin Symmetrical face yada yada yada you get the point I'm not denying the fact that there's women out there that date rocks Like I've seen the headlines, you know, the sensationalist articles or whatever like I married a tree Like I've seen it before but this is like one in a billion woman There's eight billion people in the world.  They go to salons They like study up an aesthetic trends and fashion They buy cute clothes whatever and then even guys who take care of themselves just wear shorts and polos like It's not like they go and do a makeup. It's not like they go and you know, do their nails or whatever So there's a lot of women focus on the wrong things.   So like yeah, they don't you're right Yeah, so off the bat, like if a person's in a gym consistently They're already in the upper echelons of fitness just by virtue of showing up like that at the beginning like that already Is impressive, but the issue I have is like it It seems like a lot of your standards When it comes to attractiveness are being influenced to okay, let me let me put it this way If you got a bunch of pictures together of like hot anime babes And you had a range of them from like a kind of normal looking Anime chick to like one with huge cities and wide hips or whatever and you asked a bunch of guys Which ones do you think are the hottest?  No, you know We're we're framing this in way to um Like empirical of a fashion when in reality a lot of people's like attractiveness standards fluctuate constantly We're being too essentialist. We're being too limited, you know I don't know. I don't really agree with your point. Like if you look at these statistics Like I even mentioned this in my video today. Like is beauty in the eye of the beholder um The top 50 percent of men get 96 percent of tinder likes like that that same top half Is getting 96 percent while the bottom half is only getting 4 percent And as a matter of fact delving a little deeper the top 1 percent of men on tinder Get four times the amount of likes as the bottom 50 percent combined Which is nuts like one guy at the very top the top 1 percent has four times the power As 50 guys at the bottom. I probably actually all of their dating chances combined Like I would rather be that top 1 guy rather than you know having 50 opportunities As a guy at the very bottom.  How are you doing show tits to like every most morning getting matches Like forget the texting forget the texting altogether Because most guys aren't even getting the matches like in order to like Even be concerned about uh Like how they're gonna conduct themselves in the texting part of it Well, they're similar to a job interview like, you know, you can plan until the cows come home What questions are going to come up in this job interview?   Yeah, I've heard of that. I know I know how bumble works um But the problem with that, you know, it's funny. I've seen some scenarios where um women on bumble like uh, because you know, she's like anticipating like the the like gender Like role of how it should be that um the man should approach the woman She would literally put a full stop or just hire as the opening message on bumble And then expect the man to carry the conversation and do all the legwork again Like so we're straight back to square one Um, you know, and if i'm honest Like i'm i'm not sure if you agree with the whole like gender role uh system when it comes to approaching But I think that men should be the guys to approach like it's not down to a woman Like men have always been the pursuers and women have always the issue to Pursue no, but i'm not trying to break down That uh system. I mean that's just how it always is that's how the world works It's causing problems Like what you're complaining about on tinder and bumble right now is some you're like defending the thing that's causing that problem The fact that what you're gonna reason why the reason why women don't have to like engage at all in those apps It's because they know men will come to them Which is true men are way more desperate than women are in social media apps So if we could somehow like address that and make men less fucking desperate and make women more like Engaged and more likely to initiate I think you would see a settling on a lot more of these roles Which I would like to see frankly because for a number of reasons.  I remember seeing some um, what is it data on it online? It said that like half of straight couples meet through Uh online dating, but it's like 90 for the gay community Well in a lot of places being publicly gay can be kind of dangerous So it makes sense there'd be a bias towards online engagement But there is a lot more freedom in terms of like the back and forth like for instance I'm a guy.  But in a dating environment, right? It's that the guy's hornier the guy's way more direct The guy is um is a lot more open-minded when it comes to like the ways in which they want to engage You know, like how are we going to talk? What are we going to talk about and in my experience like You get a bi girl and instantly these problems this this wall it disappears It's a lot easier to talk to them as people too because you're not doing this bullshit courting thing And I think a lot of that is just because as a product of them also being interested in women They're more used to doing the approach themselves and I think that experience actually makes them way better people I think women would be better. I think women have it too easy. I think we need to make things harder for them I think we need to make them Socially expected with initiating and engaging, you know, it's been too easy for these bitches for too long Okay, I want to be wooed. All right.   Like you can try and break that down But when you look at the macro and micro It's opposite because on the macro. Yes in a perfect world It would be fantastic if like guys would stop being so thirsty and you know, calm themselves down Not approach every woman the uh, you know, the they Comes into view Like almost like kill on site And not swipe on every woman Available on tinder like we've seen the videos before of like a guy on the train that would be swiping on tinder And he's just going absolutely crazy with his finger just swiping right on every single woman until he Gets a match and he most times he never does Like in an ideal world on the macro like if we Stopped guys from doing that then it would fix a lot of the problems. However on a micro When you look at like the ideal scenario for a guy Um, if he's in a bar or a club if he's just sitting at the side You know drinking hand sipping away every 30 seconds not really getting involved not really interested just looking boring He's not going to get any opportunities like bar the exception of some chad who You know might get a woman approach him occasionally But then for any average guy it's just a completely Non-effective dating strategy. So all guys are forced into Increasing their level of thirst and desperation in order to get actually involved if you're not I'm saying well, it's kind I don't necessarily disagree, but I feel like it's kind of a race to the bottom there some broader social prescriptions would go a long way Towards um improving the situation for everyone, right? So like for example a lot of black pill in cell red pill whatever guys are um super anti-feminist being anti-feminist Individually as a guy will actually make it harder to date women because it turns into a fucking weirdo But on a broader social level their idea is like, okay well, if you get rid of feminism we could all have a 15 year old like trad wives who live in a farm with me and the um, you know, I I think we can turn that like attitude that that desire to affect social change in a positive direction Interpersonally though for like any given individual Um honest to god, I think a lot of guys would have a lot more success if they just started. I don't know Going to gay bars not for the guys but for the girls. Um, which will make the guys mad, but like whatever who cares about guys the A lot of the problems that I that are caused here I really do think could be solved with like a general application of the values that the queer community has Even in people who are not actually queer, you know Um, and if they if they could do that, I think they would have a lot more success I mean, what kind of guy what kind of girls are these guys looking for right the um The ones who aren't having much success if we're talking about a guy who's just not getting swiped on on tinder I have to assume like they're probably willing to like go out with or talk to Any woman they find attractive, right? Yeah, they probably would be like well, actually, I don't know about that. There's some guys on tinder who um Literally, I wouldn't even say some guys. This is probably the majority of guys Um, they their standards are through the floor on tinder Um, they've got they would literally swipe on anyone and anything Um, and the reason for that is because it's behind closed doors However, if they was out with their mates in a bar, whatever and then there was some really overweight chick um, you know sitting on the opposite side like A guy who might have swiped on her on tinder He's not gonna he's going to be too embarrassed to approach her Right at the bar because all of his mates are watching. Do you know what I'm saying? Okay Do we feel do we feel like we're We're maybe touching on a negative standard here, right? Like if a person would be willing in a vacuum to sleep with an overweight chick But would be embarrassed to do so publicly Isn't that guy demonstrating an attitude that might kind of be like Contributing a little bit to the issue because it seems like that guy's like a character, right? It is.  They probably wouldn't be embarrassed Approaching that overweight woman because they're on the same level But if a guy who say like a six out of ten Approach as the woman who's really overweight and below average Um, you know Like he's not going to do that in real life because like that's an embarrassment for him Like his mates are going to be like, oh, why are you stooping that low?  However, when he does it on tinder because it's behind closed doors, he can just invite the woman over Um, you know, it's a lot more of a likely scenario to happen And then when that happens the woman walks away from that situation Thinking like, oh, I got that six out of ten guy, you know, who was really attractive for me. Um, you know I I deserve him. But there are like, yeah, this causes a problem Well, okay, that causes a problem because it causes the entitlement.  There are crazy women But there are like super crazy entitled dudes, right?  Yeah, there are some delusional guys But, you know, they're in the minority like a lot. There's a lot more delusional women About what they can obtain than there is delusional guys and most guys who are delusional Like it's cope for them. So are they delusional or are they right because those women seem to actually be getting the guys, right? Well, no, they they've not adjusted to the uh, you know new market conditions Like, you know, if a house costed, um, $2,000 70 years ago, um You know, that was obviously a great price But then 70 years later because of inflation and everything And you know, just appreciation like it's a really valuable area Let's say that like the surrounding has been really developed and the price of the house goes up to a million Um, you know, some guys are going to be like, oh, uh, yeah, I'm not going to pay that because Um, I could have got it for two grand, uh 70 years ago Um, and a similar thing is happening in the dating market that yeah 70 years ago these women Who were below average they might have been like, um, you know, quite low value and A lot of a lot of guys, uh, you know, would have dated them if they were on their level, but nowadays Um, these even below average women because of you know, they've got access to tinder Um, you know, their standards have been inflated like artificially Uh, then there's still going to be those guys out of there who are like, oh, I'm not going to date her She's way too entitled but they haven't adjusted to the new market condition So it kind of eludes back to the point you mentioned earlier about it being a race at the bottom Like guys are just constantly undercutting each other Uh, lowering their standards turn by turn until like the women at the very bottom, uh, um, you know Being basically put on a pedestal and that seems really attractive But this is the guy's fault then because the women aren't changing the way on a macro on a macro is the guy's fault Yeah So we do need a broad social change because like there's no way that's not going to happen How are you going to implement anything like that? There already has been back unless you bring back the arranged marriages Uh, you know that's practiced in uh, Afghanistan and iran all of the aslamic countries Unless you bring back that but that's not going to happen be sluttier The queer community is way better about this stuff than the straight community more young people Say that point again if you say so the people to be more promiscuous, that's going to fix things That's what's going to make things worse.  It sounds like we're deviating deviating a little bit Um, you know the point that I thought we was about to focus on was you know how we can like make Dating yeah, yeah be sluttier. Yeah, exactly. But yeah, so I think that's I think that's like the opposite of a solution That only caused more problems because the more promiscuous the society The more inequality into especially the guys that is In terms of the uh, like they're dating opportunities because monogamy is one to one Well, at least in theory it is like obviously you're gonna have infidelity going on Uh, you know in a lot of marriages under under monogamy, but assuming all things are perfect Uh, and monogamy is like an extremely Like core value of the society then it would be a one to one um You know like equal system going on of men to women like every man Uh gets a chance and every woman gets a chance but in promiscuous societies Like right in promiscuous societies You just see the monopolization of the dating market by the top 10 to 15 percent of men and then the bottom 90 percent is just left out Because if if a woman has a choice of sleeping with you know, either Um, you know a guy whose average may be on her level or the top five percent guy You know, there's no limit. Well, you know, at least Practically in terms of how many women that the guy at the top can sleep 90 percent of men are absolutely not locked out Of the dating market. I think that is an insane thing. Yeah, that is a that is a little bit of an exaggeration You know, I would probably say that the bottom 30 percent are completely invisible. Um, and then the middle like 50 to 60 percent is somewhat hanging on but they're hanging on by a thread Like they've not got options. They've not like I'm talking about the guys who get, you know, two to three matches per Uh week or per day on tinder. They could just be in a relationship. They're hanging on a thread Yeah, okay fair enough. You're still going to have people in a relationship as well You know, like but you're not going to have bottom 30 percenters in relationships. They're locks out together There are absolutely ugly people in relationships that's been known to happen You can go to any office building in the world any workplace. You can go to any college campus There will be ugly people in relationships who are having way more sex than you or I am having Um, it like, you know, however you map that behind the scenes The problem that I have is that this is also deterministic We're using hard numbers. Do we have evidence to back up those hard numbers? No, we have feelings We went from 90 to 30 in one jump, you know, oh, yeah, the bottom 30 percent aren't like don't have any chance Yes, they do like go talk to some fat ugly people. They're a lot of them are married or in relationships Yeah, it's becoming less and less so that way. Okay, but like this fake like vibes vibes It's like I'm talking with like a horoscopes chick, right? Like, you know vibes vibes like, okay in reality This is all so complicated But then you you watch the youtube videos and it's like listen up 90 percent of men are getting 10 percent of the women It's like, okay Are they? I mean, I'm not a 10 out of 10.  They happen all over the place and like A lot of the issue we're having is that women gate keep sex too hard Um, at least a lot like do relative to men, right? Like if you want people to be sluttier It's not guys who have to be sluttier guys who are already sleeping around like freely It's women who need to sleep around more freely and then we have to think okay What social factors could we induce to get women to be more free and open with who they sleep around with So we could kind of even out the consequences of being slutty broadly and then like number one would be you can't You can't demonize women for sleeping around would be the number one Like thing that you'd do there to change that right like it's the social stigma It's not it's the complete opposite your diagnosis is the opposite of what actually needs to happen If you're going to try and help the guys at the very bottom, um, you know in increasing their dating chances because like If we were if we rewind the clock, you know a hundred years Like every guy will more or less every guy who wanted to Uh, we'll be able to get married have a family You know live the white picket fence lifestyle That's not true. A lot of them died a long because they it was all like, you know the vast majority of them were religious You know living in religious communities and they would Get married at 20 like the average age of marriage Like no, you'd leave high school and then boom you you'd be handed a wife and then you'd live happily No, that's not true. Oh, that's your fantasy. That's your fantasy dream like like Incel red pill recollection of history tons of guys just to show you the dates weird The more people got married and less people divorced back then they do now But tons of people were alone and lonely like there are how you that that's a complete contradiction there You just said that less people were getting divorced more people were getting married But somehow there was still more lonely guys. That's not a contradiction.  It's just not gonna happen. They've done it to me. Can I share my screen quickly? Yeah like We've all seen this graph before can you see what I'm seeing at the moment? You know the one like dating is a zero-sum game like one man's gain is always at the Expense of another guy and that's why you know the graph that I'm sure everyone's already seen male virginity is going up The number of men who are locked out of the dating market and you know, it's as I said earlier Like which was a rough estimate 30 percent. Well, this is 28 percent. It's increased And it's in the last 30 years 40 years and that's because the dating market has become more um, you know free Uh, people are more promiscuous now than at any other point in history. Well not in history, but like at least uh since the um You know monogamous, uh single family household era like It's a zero-sum game because there's one guy at the top gets to sleep with all of the Women, you know who are average to above average Then it leaves the average guy who previously would have dated and married that girl Out out of it now. He's left out of the equation And he has to now step down another rung and he has to Do the same thing to the guy at the very bottom the 30 percent the bottom 30 percenters And that's why these bottom 30 percenters get locked out. Do you know what i'm saying? No, I I agree the the rate of female virginity has been increasing too. I think um, I think no not as much though It's not as less. I acknowledge not as much though I believe it's it's not by the proportion we're looking at here because that stops in 2018 the pandemic Worsened everything for everyone And it evened out the worsening as well, of course because the pandemic affected men and women like pretty pretty equally in terms of like social Hosterization. Yeah, I I see here. Um Oh wait, there's a couple of charts here Depending on which ones you want to look at I at any rate I agree that it's worse for men and for women But what i'm trying to do here is prescribe like possible improvements to that because while I agree that um A lot of guys have more trouble finding sex than women do I don't deny that at all.  Yeah, well depends on the bar, you know, some bars 100 chance some bars not so much um Well, they would have to say hey guys not hey women, but you know, um The um, I don't deny there's an imbalance there, but like I think that we have to temper the individual and the group expectations a little bit With an understanding that whatever we want to return to is not coming back We have to talk about ways to improve this moving forward And I know that like rates of virginity Are much lower in young queer communities than young straight communities I know that young guys who are gay or bi even if they're just with women Have an easier time than straight guys do which suggests to me that there are both Individual and group attitudes that are improving things on that side.  Like there's still all of the dynamics that you would see in heterosexual couplings But there's something different there and I don't just think it's guy sleeping with guys Because if you isolated to just men and women sleeping together, which happens all the time in queer communities Um, we we do see different results And what can we what can we pull from that and a big part of it is in queer communities?   That's like uh, a lot of them You know, so in in that respect like it probably what if it was just men and women though?  Wait, what do you mean by that?    They bake the bathrooms bigger in the queer bars Um, and it's like well, why I mean even if we're just talking, um Heterosexual pairings, why is everything hornier because it's better and I think we can improve I'm not sure if it would work because if you look at the trajectory Like maybe it's a different set of rules for what applies to the straight community in the gay community because You are right that in the gay community like which is more promiscuous um You know, it's it's more equitable like even the guys at the bottom Still have opportunities But if they applied that same logic to the straight community I don't think it would lead to the same outcome because if you look at the trajectory of how Things have shifted in the last 30 to 40 years The straight community has become more and more promiscuous like You know feminism has like said that a woman sleeping around is actually empowering not a um, you know Like not not something that she shouldn't do Don't you like sleeping around? Sorry, don't you like sleeping around? I mean, I feel a lot of guys a lot of guys, um, you know It's in their evolutionary strategy actually well in every guy's evolutionary strategy to Uh sleep around but it's not in women. It's not in women. So it's actually dispowering for them But we don't well one can only have one baby Every nine months here though. Like wait, this is the thing You're like evolution says that it must be socially acceptable guys and the girls evolution isn't a factor anymore We built our environment. We built cities. We have birth control every we we built the world around us We're not but that doesn't take away the evolution. No, no evolution is a system where nature Guides the behavior of organisms and their design to accommodate survival in a given environment This is a Descriptive not prescriptive just because something is evolutionarily ordained does not mean that it's good or bad Evolutionarily, I'm not saying whether it's good or bad, but I'm saying it You know, it's still a factor that's involved But you're making an argument for social stigma and that's a prescriptive judgment what I'm talking about here What we're talking about being empowering Empowering is about whether or not you think something is actualizing are people having fun Is it a statement of yourself or you are you there's certainly not having fun? When I showed in my video I actually showed in my what is it? Let me just bring it up quick. I've already got it the statistics available um, I can tell you right now, so for Both men and women's concerns over casual sex um in this Survey they did How many was it a 14? I think 14 measurements. Yeah 14 factors For what men and women's concerns are over casual sex, and it's all like the common ones stds pregnancy scares fear of judgment personal safety Dissatisfying sex, you know you get the idea and in 12 of the 14 factors Women's concerns were greater than men.  How is that there for over the 14 factors? Well, no, but I'm saying that a lot of women will go into casual sexual encounters with this like hippie-dippy, uh feel-good sort of um Mindset, but then wake up in the morning after and then regret it and then be like actually that was a massive mistake And then that's why a lot of women actually get diagnosed with depression because uh, they have all of this casual sex They think it's good. No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no No, okay. So right now like I you these conversations go on long enough and it's like, okay Well, why does this person have all these delusions about the dating market? It's like eventually if you let them talk enough Okay, no There is no evidence whatsoever to suggest that casual sex is leading to some rise in depressiveness with women Considering the fact that the largest spike we've ever had in women's depressiveness was during an era of forced monogamy back in the 1950s It is true that women often have negative experiences with casual sex But a lot of the stuff that you just described are things you're causing Social stigma fear of violence. Don't get me started on incels and how they feel about women The like the reasons women tend to have worse experiences with casual sex isn't because of some Evolutionarily ordained bias against them.   Uh, and if they could just get someone to do that, no fuss no must I think that's like a net positive for them. You know, that's like a general good There's a lot of added social statement. It's not true. That is it's a way which part that it feels good I promise you that is true. No, but I'm not talking about in the moment Yeah, in the moment, they might be getting a lot of dopamine And being like, oh, this is brilliant But then the day after it so often comes with the regret and that's why if you look at the Uh Survey that I just stated in 12 out of the 14 factors women had Greater concerns than men only one and that shows that Yeah, okay. Let's go through them one by one. So can you link the study? Well, I can um share my screen if you'd like to bring it up sure So wait, even even if all of these ended up being the case it's still women's choice if they want to sleep around What do you mean? Like even if they end up experiencing more negative hookups that doesn't mean that it's not like valid for them to sleep around It doesn't mean it's socially bad for them to do so. It's their choice Well, um, they're welcome to do it, but um, you know It's it's it's it's just not gonna be uh beneficial for them Wait, but that no, no, no. I'm concentrating on this quickly. Let me just No, no, you're you see the screen now. No, no, no. Hold on.  What's best for them? Like this is the thing This is why I mean I got the feeling from your video when I watched it that you like never actually talk to women Which I know you do you must have but this indicates like a complete unwillingness to engage with their experiences on this issue The idea that you would say for example Women having greater concerns with personal safety is an argument that their Evolutionarily inclined against casual sex is wild Like can you not think of another? Possible reason for that Well, it's on average on average women are weaker in terms of physical strength for the men So of course, they're going to be a lot more concerned over personal safety In a casual sexual encounter than men, but anyway, I've got the doesn't seem to affect my screen between If we can go for a one by one std's It's roughly the same unintended pregnancies Surprisingly men are actually more concerned about it fear of awkwardness women are more concerned Personal safety women are more concerned by a long shot as well That's like a 50% increase Disatisfying sex women again They find it more dissatisfying and that's 41 so you're saying that you know women are enjoying it 41% said they actually Okay, these are concerns over casual sex Not 41% of all women have dissatisfying sex every time But they say that it's a concern. Yeah, it's a concern. It's a concern.  I have I would I would say concern. Yes for all of these Except for personal safety because I'm quite strong So concern they can't throw sexual performance men body insecurities women So, you know, if you add up all of these things So wait percentage for women. Wait, wait, no, wait, hold on that. No, okay It doesn't work that way.   It's not exactly the right word to use, but it's the most simplistic way of describing it So when I say entitled, I mean something that a woman Wants to have but she doesn't necessarily tick that box herself So in the example of overweight woman overweight women I think it's an entitlement or at least pointing in that direction if an overweight woman Refuses and says that she doesn't want to date an overweight man If a woman who's overweight has the standard that she only wants to date um In shape guys Then I think that is pointing in the direction of entitlement But guys have lots of double standards when it comes to women like most guys put no effort into their appearance at all They'll go to the gym sometimes maybe and they'll wear clothes that fit But in terms of like styling themselves skin care hair care Women put in a lot more effort like here's one Guys and girls both grow armpit hair right like I grow more than most women But pretty much everyone grows armpit hair I've never shaved my armpit hair, but I'm kind of used to sleeping with girls who shave theirs Isn't that a double standard on my part like doesn't don't aren't I being kind of entitled to like a totally arbitrary Exertion of effort on their part despite not doing anything myself Wait, so you do or don't shave your armpit hair, but I don't I never will but they don't No, but this is a different thing though because um A woman Not shaving her armpit hair. That's gonna be considered a lot more unattractive for guys than a guy Not shaving his armpit hair because sounds like entitlement hair for guys Is often a you know display of his masculinity You know, it's obviously this isn't a huge example like it's not really a big deal But you know if a woman Has armpit hair a lot of guys are gonna be you know, see that's quite unattractive But not many women are gonna see the same thing about a guy who Has or doesn't have pit her but you're just describing socially normalized entitlement Like armpit hair is not a gendered feature It literally like literally all people have like with like five people who don't there are asian guys who don't So I guess like yeah, it's pretty much even between men and women So it seems like you're just talking about socially mandated entitlement, you know, like oh, it's not us. That's entitled It's just like men as a class are entitled But that makes it okay Couldn't you say the same thing about women being kind of like fat because like that rubin-esque kind of like Fertility goddess big titties wide hips pat like belly pouch thing like well Women have a higher body pat percentage biologically on average than men So you could go like okay.  Sorry not waste her hips, you know, which can increase her Uh desirability, but for men No, I wouldn't say belly not on uh, no like a little Didn't you see that discourse on twitter about how like girls will wear like a skirt and then it'll have that like belly pouch thing You know what I mean like the the like, um You know, uh, it's not called a bit. It's like something it's like the primordial pouch and a cat except it's on a bench No, I don't know what you're talking about. Ah the thingy, you know, like the I think that's cute. You know, they're kind of squishy Okay, fair enough. Maybe you have a niche preference for that but a lot of me and a lot of guys think belly fat on a woman is uh attractive but as for guys if their body fat percentage is uh higher Like even if we're talking 20 percent or above Like it goes to the worst areas. It all goes straight to their face. It just bloats out their face um, and then guys get beer bellies and You know, it's just not a good look for them. So the men can't afford I don't think that's particularly good for guys either Girls like asses I don't know. I don't know too much about that. Whether that's a good or not. No, no, that's fully true Hey, hey, hey, you go to the gym. Okay, and I don't you'd better. Um You'd better be doing those. Um, what do they call them hip thrusts as well? Okay That shit's important.  Okay. Um, I'll have to look into what you're saying Either way, I don't think it's a huge component of Amounts physique in terms of his attractiveness Um for guys, you know, the main things that are going to display their masculinity It's going to be the size of their shoulders That the the breadth of their chest their arms things like that and you know having a low body fat percentage um But anyway, this this is derailing a little bit like my overarching point was Is that for a woman, um, you know her being higher body fat percentage is not as Bad of a thing necessarily than a man being higher body fat percentage. So in that regard you could argue that You know a woman who's overweight Um, you know, she is is technically she's dating down more by dating an overweight man Um, you know that that argument can be made like I think there is truth to it, but then The thing that I don't buy is when a woman's literally like 35 40 45 body fat like clinically obese But then she doesn't want to date a guy who's a 25 30 body fat and they're probably on the same level Uh, realistically, you know given like their their attractiveness Well, I'm not I'm definitely not denying that there are some people who um come across as kind of like weirdly, um Lacking in self-awareness when it comes to their appearances I don't think there's anything wrong with having higher standards that might necessarily be warranted by your appearance Like again, for example, like I feel like I probably cut above my weight a couple of times, you know I I can't really complain, but um I I feel like what we bring to relationships is so not fixed. It's so mixed and so Variable that it's really difficult to kind of decide who's being entitled You know what I mean? Like women put in more effort by default than men do when it comes to the relationship in almost every experience that I've seen Like well the guys have to elaborate on this Yeah, the guy's expected to pay and to do the dating and the courting But when it comes to the actual ongoing relationship like like once you're in one in my experience Most guys turn into like lazy sacks of shit And the women turn into like mom slash girlfriend slash housewives I've seen this happen to so many head couples And I cannot blame women for being resentful in the situation Probably not good Okay, there are some of those guys out there who are lazy in the relationships. Well, I don't exactly see the women pulling their way either or doing much to Contribute in my relationship experience. It's not at all been what you're describing Like almost everything I would plan Organize organize the logistics for You know, I'm talking about dates like trips things like that Like that would all be on me and I would be the person to Sort all of that stuff out. Um, you know, I'd sort out the transportation everything like that The woman more often than not just tags along like she wouldn't Organize anything like and if you look at most relationships, I'm pretty sure you would see a similar pattern The guy is the one who's Sorting out all of the logistics of days out trips states whatever and the woman kind of just has to show up I That is definitely not been my experience.  I uh, so as soon as I'm locked in, you know, I um, I I'm I'm full on domestic mode Though at least I I wash my own dishes Um, I don't know and I just I just see a lot of I don't even get people gifts for their birthdays. I just see a lot of um Guys doing this really weird like regression To childhood with their mom girlfriends I don't know that's got to get on women's nerves With that this might be an opportunity to go into the q&a. Are you guys I will give you a chance though In case you have any last thoughts if you want to draw together the threads from the debate I know I'm enjoying the conversation But yeah, no that it's it's it could happen now or could happen five hours from now. So that's fine with me You got it Weed waffles anything? Um, no, I'm happy to move on to the uh next thing the q&a You got it and want to let you know folks if you're watching over whether it be On modern day debate and you haven't noticed or if you're watching elsewhere such as over at wash's channel I just put a new poll in the live chat. This is if morpheus offered you the black pill or the wash pill What would you take that is in the live chat in case you want to vote on that and we're going to jump into these questions Thank you very much for your question coming in from Balthazar 228 says does weed waffles agree with dr. Alden's research on the effects of blackpilling young men in modern society I've not even heard of that This is gonna get from balthazar 228 says We got that one Quality upstate says attractive people are nice to look at but not worth it if they don't have what matters Which is being smart good personality successful, etc, right Is that directed at me could you could you repeat the question? I was thinking is maybe before weed waffles They say attractive people are nice to look at but not worth it if they don't have what matters such as having a good personality being smart, etc I would say for those guys They could still clean up on dating apps and in nightclubs where Your looks is at the forefront like that's your you know shop Like opening, you know, what's on this on the display window So you don't even need good finances or conversational abilities in those environments Like I've seen guys in nightclubs who are really good looking Not even say a single word to a woman and then make out with her Like that's not uncommon an uncommon thing They can still clean up on things like online dating and nightclubs But as for a you know a relationship or warm approach Um, you know like meeting women in schools and the church or work whatever Yeah, they would probably find it a little bit more difficult there You got it this one coming in from do appreciate it. You have no llama says when One of them doesn't follow the mods rule. They should be banned from the channel. Oh, that was That seems administrative That sounds uh directed at you No, no, no, that was it was actually for somebody in the live chat But the judge or said by the way, I want to give a huge thanks We never thank our mods in the chat enough. Well, that might I want to say thank you mods for doing a great job. We always want to follow youtube's terms of service folks who just want to encourage you More importantly than youtube to us from a more idealistic point of view attack the argument instead of the person This one from juz or says thank you for hosting the debate james. Thanks juz or we appreciate that support Nick says wheat waffles can men make themselves more attractive and if so should they Be responsible to do it Uh, yeah, well, okay, so I I think we know we so I'll answer that. Um, yeah, I think so I think it's good, you know, I just think that people sometimes get fixated on the wrong Elements being healthy and being physically fit is good on its own for like every imaginable reason It, you know, it's good for your mental health. It literally releases the good brain chemicals It means you get to live longer. You get to be happier while you live like this is a million So many things, right? So there's lots of reasons to exercise. Um, but in terms of like being more attractive There are lots of things you can do to be more attractive that aren't just like Working out and finding clothes that fit, you know what I mean? I think it doesn't hurt to like take a look at a good stylist It doesn't take a look or doesn't hurt to like Investigate some more modern fashionable trends for men, you know, like you even if it's like mfa on reddit or whatever Like I think that's a lot better than how most guys rest themselves including me I wear mostly like sandals and anime graphic these so it's not like, you know Don't practice what I practice what I preach not what I do Um And moreover, I think a lot of it is also conversational There is so much you can do there's so much weight you can carry by being a good conversational list And I think that also helps you like cut the wheat from the chaff because there are some hot bitches out there Who are just so boring to talk to and I do not care about fucking you if you can't hold a conversation There is no point. I might as well masturbate get away from me So having a good conversational rapport means that you have the ability to kind of like better work out what you're interested in This one coming in well by technically awful if you want to respond to that one. It was addressed for you Oh, sorry No, I have to move on to the next question In particular though, they are men responsible for improving their looks or status Are men responsible? I would say all men should I don't know what the question is asking when it says responsible Like what does that actually mean? I think they mean like a duty A duty Uh, I still you know, I'm a little bit Like questioning the terminology being used there. It's a little bit like not really the context I think the word duty or responsible should be used I would say all men should strive to increase their looks and status and finances I mean every single guy should be trying to improve those things. There's no excuse for it. Like these guys that are just wasting Um six hours a day, which isn't even uncommon to be honest I think for the zoomer generation I even saw some statistic the other day the average zoomer is spending eight hours a day in front of screens You know combined that's tiktok youtube video games Netflix tv whatever Uh eight hours like if guys, um You know did less of that obviously some of it's going to be productive You know there's a lot to be learned on youtube, but there's essentially nothing to be learned on tiktok and uh video games Like they're they're mostly a waste of time um If guys did less of those things and put more effort into increasing their Fitness finances their status their looks whatever then you know that that is what they should be doing You got it. This one coming in from do appreciate it Big bad mama says is there a link between in celibacy and fundamentalism? Uh, let's see. I don't know if if you're voluntarily celibate for religion reasons I don't know if you'd be in celibate, but nonetheless. I guess you could be uh uh half-hearted fundamentalist who's Wanting to have sex you're wanting to break your celibacy I think I can tell you for perfect a lot of people pretend to convert to catholicism as a response to not getting laid That's a that's a common online thing I think they're asking though wheat waffles. Are you a religious fundamentalist? Uh, no, I'm not religious at all. I don't believe in god Wow an atheist. All right thunderstorm.  We're glad you're here nix. We got this one thunderstorm says hi no malice Do a lot of these issues stem from the lack of communication or skills or self-awareness and autism for both sexes And on a side note people seem terrified to love another person. I think they're mean meaning non-committal But what do you think for the first part and then we'll get to the second in particular Do these issues stem from a lack of communication skills lack of self-awareness or this kind of alleged increased autism among men and women I I I will say the communication is vital and I think that a big part of the difficulty that people have in heterosexual communities around casual hooking up is the fact that um, it's kind of expected that The only reason you would hook up with somebody is to begin a relationship with them and not doing that is kind of a devian See thing. So it's like, okay, we're just going to hook up But like, you know afterwards and like it's like a thing or is in the queer community like that is not the case The idea of like casually hooking up is incredibly ingrained in the culture, which means that there's there's a lot more I guess linguistic room. There's a lot more conceptual space to be more clear with what it is exactly you want Not to say people don't get their feelings hurt in the queer community. Of course they do all the time Frequently even at me, but um It is good to be clear with the people you're talking to You got it. This one coming in from do appreciate it You read this this we got that that nix says vosh being pan Is it fair to say that how you perceive women and the women that you are attracted to would be different than a straight male? um Maybe a bit but not by not by much. I don't think um, when I was When I was when I thought I was heterosexual, which would have been back when I was like 13 or 14 And I was well into puberty by that point.  And then you know, and then we go on with our day But I I think I can talk on the issue You've got it this one coming in from do appreciate it. This is a juicy one. Well flameo says wheat waffles is there any difference between blue and black pill if rad fems and incels Essentially say the same thing but only disagree on who should be in charge. Is it true that Black pill people is there a commonality some sort of overlap some way that just put in other words that black pillars and radical feminists agree on something Um, I'm not sure entirely what they would agree on wash. Um Oh, yeah No, the the rad fem community like the um gender critical or turf community like there's a large overlap Actually does agree with an overlap Oh, there's a huge overlap Yeah, because the rad fems are like the reactionary wing of the second wave feminists and the second wave feminists were pre intersectionality So they're actually really obsessed with biological differences between men and women and a lot of rad friends Like these are the people who um believed in political lesbianism to like virtue signal by only dating other women Because they like they thought that any sexual subservience to a man was like reifying the patriarchy or something in a lot of ways they actually like kind of codified Not terminology, but at least incel adjacent concepts before it was even a thing online, which is really funny Seriously, some of these turf forms these people are acting basically just like in cells They talk about men the same way that in cells talk about women just in a more Politically directed way because of course it's not a dating form, you know, it's a rad fem form Interesting sorry just rambling there. It is funny though. There is an overlap Any thoughts on that weed waffles on what wash? Well, I would say that there is a common commonality in terms of they're both quite passionate about You know the things they're speaking of like the vast majority of people in the middle, uh, you know the centrists aren't really Like involved in these sorts of spaces anywhere near as much. They're certainly not making content or videos or You know spending a lot of time investing a lot of time into Watching creators and what they have to say But I think that's generally a theme that you see in most What is it communities where there's like? a polarisation like I remember seeing some data that said And it was like a u-shaped graph. So of those on the far left and the far right they are way more likely to Uh display their political status or opinions on facebook and instagram YouTube whatever rather than the people in the middle who frankly don't care like they're way less likely to vote Um, you know or voice their opinion online because they just don't really give a damn but the people on the Far extremes of both sides. They're a lot more passionate and you know Believing what they're saying. So they're more likely to do that kind of stuff You got it.  Is this true?   Um No, I don't I don't think that's true at all.  Um For two like I there are probably lesbian dead bedrooms for sure I have no idea if that's a testosterone thing I mean, there are lots of people out there who don't have very much testosterone at all who's still like throwing it back You know, I've met a few of them. Um, I don't know.  I am taking the fact that women are terrible. We can just leave it at that Juicy to say the least this one from coconut Cream pie says just date queer women in quotes and that says theory. So this is the They say that one of you is espousing a quote just date queer women theory Um, I think it's more about adopting some of the attitudes the queer community has You know, I would recommend that people who are straight Try to make some queer friends anyway for a variety of reasons like literally just like talk to some You know, there are a lot of cool people there. They tend they play a lot of video games Do you like video games, you know that's that they like drawing drawing school And and being familiar with the tendencies of the community I think in a broader sense and interpersonally could maybe give people some insight on how they want to lead their sex lives Um, it doesn't just have to be dating though. You can certainly do that if you want, you know There are plenty of straight people in queer communities broadly.  They're just kind of in the periphery. They're in the orbit They're in the zone There's a lot of space there for people, you know for people to have fun Any thoughts sweet waffles Uh, no, I'm not even sure he was talking about that. They're like blue hair. Do you like pronouns? Okay. There's a lot of people out there This one from ponies ahoy. Thanks for your question says waffles if women had higher body standards than men why don't men Come even close to the same rate of eating disorders Wait, say that question again, please I think they're saying like if women are much more picky About the opposite so assuming they're hetero if women are much more picky about the opposite sex Having a good body Well, then why aren't men okay? Yeah, I understand now because women um as a general in you know generally speaking Like are more emotional and susceptible to Like, you know these sorts of issues like men are a lot more stoic In general, so they're less likely to have these eating disorders You know because I'm much more likely to think about these things logically and think like oh You know, I shouldn't starve myself like because that's actually gonna cause damage to my body Being a little bit more sympathetic I don't think it's just being emotional I just think women are held to much higher body standards when it comes to like their appearance It Outside of the dating and no no no wait, that's a myth. No, no Sorry to interrupt there, but that's a complete myth. No like in a business. There is no there is no What is it body positivity movement or plus size male models? They don't exist In fact, if you go onto google search and type in plus size just two words plus size Keep scrolling for the next 10 minutes. You won't see a single man. It's a great As a woman, you can be whatever shape or size you want. Okay. Okay. Hold on Doesn't make a difference for men. You've got to be in top tier shape the existence So first of all, no, you don't have to be in top tier shape to be succeed as a man.   You don't it might get in the way when you're like Dating but in terms of your broader place in society, there are tons of guys who are pudgy And not that attractive and it's just fine. They're teachers. They're they're professionals. They're business. They're lawyers They're politicians. They're everyone but with women There's a much stricter standard and that has been loosening But oh my god, like just go back a couple of decades to see how much worse it was back then that it is now Right, like there's a huge double standard. Oh another way of looking at it. Take a look at um Female judges lawyers and politicians You can literally just like open up a big list of them on average Obviously, there are more men but on average like there is such a difference in how you're allowed to look um The further up you go with men versus women TV anchors Often TV anchors when their men are attractive, but sometimes they're just like guys They just kind of look like guys, but you take a look at every fox news anchor It's like every single one of the women is like this blonde like look alike, you know Sorry, I'm rambling. Um, also guys do get a critical body disorder. Okay.   It will be a common theme Like within that friendship group that the guy is overweight and it's you know, like not good It's always got negative insinuations with it But for a woman for a female friendship group if there's a woman who's overweight um You know and she has any doubts or queries about her appearance like all the other Women in that friendship group are going to be like Oh, no, you're gorgeous. Like there's no there's nothing wrong with you.  So yeah, it seems like men suck. Jesus Christ No wonder I'm mostly friends with women.    She's uh beautiful But I don't exactly think it's warranted.  They're just telling her that she's beautiful in addition to that I think that's quite nice. Haven't you heard of guys gassing each other up?    I think they think that blackpill blackpill people are piles of garbage And they want to know like what is it? Maybe they're pointing at some of the bad apples from your community. Whatever it is that we want to give you a chance to respond Oh, there's no difference. Every black pillar is the exact same.  Well, hey, I'm a I'm a socialist. So, you know, me too. Um Socialists are blackpilled actually about the um the economic realities of capitalism in a way. There's actually quite a strong parallel there This one from zia adds it mets says waffles Are you a pretty controlling person and have you considered that maybe women didn't plan activities for you? Was because they weren't that into you Oh, that's me. I don't think that's necessarily the case at all.  I saw his goddamn smv video Well, I have many ideological disagreements with him. I know he puts the effort in okay I think I think he's he's putting his his front foot forward. Okay, that's what I think. What do you think wheat? Yeah, I agree. Um I I'm you know, if I am asking a woman to do a certain activity with me Like I would be able to read her body language. Uh, and her level of enthusiasm to gauge whether she's just saying yes for the sake of it or if she's actually wanting to do it and besides more often than not if a woman Is half assing Her response and just saying yes for the sake of it more often than not she would uh flake on the Uh experience like when it actually comes to doing it Anyway, so like, you know, once the date comes around then she'll be like, oh, no, sorry You know my dog died or just whatever excuse. Um, you know, that's probably made up I'm also not in a position to ever accept criticism or hear criticism to other people on this issue Because every year of my life that I've been in a relationship and the other person's birthday Or our anniversary has happened or christmas has happened or valentine's day has happened It's the same thing where I I wake up and I see them and it's like, hey Happy your birthday and they're like, wow, thanks. I'm just smiling at them.   I'm sorry. Let's uh, let's continue Juicy to say the least this one coming in from belphas r228 says I heard that vosh is ideal type Let's see Okay, well, we'll skip that one some of these you guys we want to add we want arguments We want objections to arguments low hair and pronouns this one coming in from coconut cream pie strikes again I know them says juggernaut law Please address this now I can give you a chance to I pulled it up because I was I was so curious It's like what's this I can give you a chance to define it or vosh Let me know if you want me to refresh the audience on what juggernaut law is I can give a definition if you like sure juggernaut law Well, um, I'm guessing we're on the same page on it. Uh, is the idea that Men uh deliberately want to date women who are of lower social status You know a woman who just reads her book at home has no social circle No friends because they think that she'll be less likely to Cheat or you know, she'll be easier to uh Date like because if a woman's got a thousand guys blowing up her inbox on instagram Then your chance of being able to be being the one guy out of those thousand guys That will get a chance of her is slim to none But if you as a guy try and date the woman who you know has no social circle No friends whatsoever then your chance of her are greatly improved I feel like that's a super insecure way to think about things right um Like ideally you would just find the person you like the most Well, I I always feel when I listen to these theories that they never take into account the fact that like it's possible to love a person I don't I don't know. I don't know if I'm off base on this But in my experience like I don't really plan out a lot of this stuff I meet people I talk to people and if I really like them I spend time and then it's like It's like, okay. Well, first of all you plot the smv like, you know Supply demand graph and then you determine the optimal and then you have to treat them to the the six points It's like, oh, I don't know. I mean if you like someone you like someone People cheat sometimes. It's not good, but it happens probably things you can do to avoid it. I guess I don't think I've ever been cheated on So this is probably that this when I would look this up on incels wiki It says juggernaut law is a theory that the very Most unattractive women Receive a surprisingly large amount of attention from men and they have a photo of a woman that basics It looks like vash with a wig on I don't understand This is wait. She sounds hot. Can you give me your number?  This is Is that what you're saying? It is wheat waffles Oh, it's a similar sort of principle. I was going more going the description of a woman with little social circle or friends But I've also heard the context of juggernaut law being used for unattractive women. So But they kind of go hand in hand. So if you approach the Extremely attractive woman then Chances are she's going to have a lot of options. But then if a guy thinks I'm going to go for Ugly Betty over there, then I'm going to have a lot much higher of a chance Wow Juggernaut law is when a girl looks like me That's right. And she's unstoppable and attracting men Which she looks like me and also When she can Any inertia and she can't be stopped exactly like the the juggernaut. That's amazing This one from testing. I think this is our last question of the day. Sorry folks We want to get our guests out of here at a decent time because they they're busy. So I do want to Testing says protect the children quote-unquote is also incredibly offensive towards anyone under 18 Why is this argument never used against that motivation? Protect the children I don't know if they mean that it it sounds patronizing toward kids like people under 18 feel like They're like, ah, why can't I protect myself? Like I'm capable. I don't know if that's what they mean. I don't know If you're under 18, I don't think you if you're under 18 and you know the term smv Then you need to um, your parents need to take your phone away from you. It was so much life to experience You have to unlearn that term Juicy wheat waffles any thought Um, no, I'm happy to move on to the next question. You got it. I think that let me just double check I don't want to get at least one standard question And I know there are some early questions ben sharp asked can can wheat waffles explain what social Social market value is that was like super early. So I think that you you feel like you've adequately covered that Uh, it's not social market value. It's sexual market value. And that was the term that valsha said, uh, so far in the can if you're below 18 You got it. I uh, I calculated my smv, you know, wait, did you see that? Oh, I saw it. What was your, uh, results fuck, um Wait, did you upload it as a video on your channel? Yeah, I think I did I don't remember if it was on my main or second channel. Wait, somebody in chat has to remember.  What did My mom is saying that it's a 5.5, but that seems kind of high. Maybe it was like a 5.3. I don't know I feel like I did good. Sounds pretty high. Yeah, that sounds like juggernaut level That's the opposite It's that's pretty good. It's like if you were a woman, I Um, yeah, I I got to skew things in my favor. I'm tall and I make a lot of money via youtube Um, if you take those both away and you put me at my spiritual height, which is four feet tall And my spiritual profession, which is in a trash can I'd probably be like more three which feels about right Juicy Oh, that's right. I had to take off point five Because I I was in the west at the end. It was 5.5. But then I had to take off point five Yeah, right. Yeah, because I'm not in a college campus and I'm in the west. That's right. I remember Juicy to say the least with that any last thoughts from our guests that you you really wanted to say I have to be honest one thing that I'm you could say impressed By the black pill community is their their use of language, especially figurative language And these phrases that if I understand right is this true wash and wheat waffles that so many phrases that are now commonly used they originated with The black pill community like kind of like fun and like humorous phrases I'm just trying to think of what the ones are now that I was thinking Well, it's everything that's like something peeled and blank maxing I think directly comes from the in cell community, doesn't it like I'm I'm on my sleepy pill. I'm cozy maxing Um, yeah, all like the maxing stuff. That's all from the black pill community, but like the most common term Chair which is closest to becoming main. Yeah. What is that? But there's also like looks maxing blank cells emanated from Oh, yeah, and anything sell Uh, it's a lot. Yeah, like a lot of etymological weight. Oh wait. How do you feel about? I'm trans maxing wheat Trans maxing. Yeah, um, I don't think it's a legit strategy Yeah, uh, some guys like they, you know, done it.  It's time. Is it time? You said that not me. Okay. Gotcha. I did you're you're implying it I I see you get the new apex of western transgenderism from the wheatwaffles channel. Just a bunch of people Rerolling their character iRL um After a sub five rating going on easy mode and dating at least I've actually enjoyed this conversation a lot. I came in super sleep deprived, but i'm feeling energized That means I had a good time. Thank you both very much. James wheatwaffles. Thank you my pleasure. I've heard someone told me this I want to know why you guys both think of it because it's just too interesting for me to not ask Allegedly for a person who trans maxed and if you if you haven't pieced it together and you're the audience and you're like I still don't actually understand what trans basically for a man who's given up hope I think it's been pretty obvious A man who's given up hope he might transition Become a woman or a trans woman whatever is basically and get dates And I've heard I don't know if it's true. You can tell me that When a person has trans maxed and then they go on tinder or bumble whatever it might be and they crush it Is this true? Do you guys know? It is true. Yeah, well for men that go to women is true I have from every trans woman I've ever heard who talked about being on tinder before and after transitioning It is always better after transitioning. So we know we have empirical evidence. The trans maxing is an effective strategy For a serious like video that talks on this Contra points Natalie when has a video entitled men where she talks about this It's actually an excellent video and she's in lingerie the whole time But she says is to appeal to the male gaze and it works. So That's a good watch. You know it talks about this a little bit Super interesting and this last question let herp just squeeze this one last question in says vosh Would a systemic analysis of dating Understand women having had monopolized the dating market as capital owners Which systemically locks some men out and there should be paid sex worker welfare Whispers quietly are women bourgeois? Yes as as a as a proud Advocate for the proletarian interest. I will yes women are bourgeois and Under communism there will be no women. There will only be men large burly men in workmen's caps and overalls Swinging a sledgehammers to construct gigantic statues of men Just sort of infinitely until we run out of quarries Juicy to say the least we'll let our guests go. We want to say huge Thank you to vosh and weed waffles. It has been a true pleasure to have you with us today Thank you both very much. It's been a delight No worries. Thank you for having me on. It's been a good debate. Yeah, y'all take care. I'm gonna Thank you you as well Thank you I'll be back in a moment folks to let you know about upcoming debates Including debate con that you can see at the bottom right of your screen So stick around and if you haven't yet hit that like button. We appreciate that support stick around. I'll be right back Be well james Amazing my dear friends want to say thanks for all of your support. We are very excited That was an epic debate it was very enjoyable I rarely do these during the day, but that one was worth it I knew it was going to be amazing Since we booked it but want to say thank you very much for being with us I see you there in the old live chat mad man glad to have you with us Kurt hanuman good to have you with us life in a hole glad you're here the copper in quarter glad to have you back as well as vol Vio Lfps. Thanks for coming by glad you're here. Daga. Love. Uh, let me know if I'm saying that right glad you're with us Jesus cow. Thanks for dropping in j a.m. 84 Glad that you're with us metal slime glad that you're here as well as certain general happy to have you with us Cowpea one. Thanks for coming by speaking moistly. Thanks for dropping in and Dream merchant make sure dropping in glad that you're here. I see you there in the old live chat pants monster v6 Happy to have you here super bananas 78 Glad that you're with us dream merchant happy you're here human girl. What's up? Soy guzzler, it's been a while. I hope you're doing well as well as Super bananas 78. Thanks for dropping in g fish. They say that right amazing Let me fight where are you in chat? Hold on Vier Oh, oh glad to have you here hannah anderson. Good to see you here again Mars leader 88 glad that you're with us as well as g finch Good to have you here Coffee mom. Good to see you again as well as fff glad that you're here as well as Laherp glad to have you here. Thanks for your encouraging words That means a lot and my dear friends. We're excited about the future as you know At the bottom right of your screen debate con 3.1. This is our third conference What we're doing for our third conference. The reason it's called 3.1 is we're going to have one religion debates day And then instead of having the political debates day either like on the same day intermixed Or on the day after we're actually going to space them out. Just give them a little bit of time Or like hey, this might work might might make a little bit easier for us to schedule We'll see but we're very excited about it. You do not want to miss this conference. Seriously It's going to be amazing Treat all peoples equally or tell me why not to please. Thanks for coming by I see you there in the live chat I've got to tell you this conference coming up on saturday april 22nd debate con by modern day debate Is our own channels conference. This is going to be huge. We're really excited about this you guys We are making big moves to make this happen Modern day debate is growing and we have to say thank you For that for real. The reason is you guys help us in so many ways For one if you enjoy debates like these controversial debates ones that trigger your family and friends Consider sharing this debate as that helps us grow a lot. It's one thing if I share it But if I share it people are like, well, yeah, james, of course you'd say that modern day debate is great And you'd share it because you started modern day debate But if you share it It has more credibility because people say, oh, you're a third party and you're saying Oh, I mean this channel is a good debate platform Well, that's cool And if you didn't know modern day debate is a fully neutral debate platform Hosting debates on science religion and politics our vision is to provide a neutral playing field so that everybody can make their case On a neutral platform That's important to us and our values are easy In particular one, we believe in the value of free speech that people can say What they want to say and make the case they want to make Our guests were free from their first breath and we think that's the way it's supposed to be So we want to ensure that that will continue to be the case with our neutral debate platform And you might say, well james, I don't know about the, you know, a lot of those free speech people They're dangerous, you know, they they allow people they platform people that have dangerous controversial views and we say That's where our second value of competition Comes in In particular, if you think oh, it's dangerous james Oh, can someone think of the children? How dare you platform this idea or this person as we would say hey when it comes to competition There's good in it. In particular, you could say it's like a natural selection of ideas namely when you let A thousand flowers bloom when you let the chips fall where they may the cream will rise to the top The best arguments will win out We believe that and I can tell you As a person in my last year for my doctorate in psychology the empirical evidence supports this idea that a lot of people say Oh james, I'm I'm nervous. Well, what if it's the case that even though My guy who's going against the dangerous person has better arguments because that's of course what they believe They say what if the Dangerous person the person with these dangerous ideas is more charismatic or good-looking or whatever it might be They're charming And they say I think they might win that way Well, I can tell you the research says otherwise petty and cassiapo have A theory that's right a theory in the scientific sense in that it has mountains of evidence to support it namely that When you pit logical argumentation against what they call more peripheral routes of persuasion like Charisma or sense of humor of the speaker or whatever it is The logical arguments do win out That's what the research says. So when I see people say like, oh, you know, I say, hey, I mean, this is what the research says Believe me. I know it. You know it. Everybody knows it. There are a lot of haters out there They oh james, it's dangerous that you you host these people These are the kind of people, you know, they're calling this dangerous They're the kind of people that wear their bike helmet even when they're not riding their bike Okay, they worry about everything. They're so neurotic. I think Just anything. Oh, it's dangerous. I don't know if I want to do that. That's dangerous But I want to say hello to you in the old live chat Flat Sabbath glad to have you here as well as did you eat dinner? Glad to have you with us Says james any opinion on the debate the other day between tom jump and Howard, I know that that was a rowdy one I want to defend ryan Ultimately by saying I'm the one that's trained ryan And so if ryan ever doesn't do a good job, which by the way, I actually think that ryan did An acceptable job. He's new at this. He's getting his, you know, his feet wet If he had any sort of shortcoming which I would say like I think that he Did a especially given the circumstances because it is actually very difficult to host both howard and tom Especially on the street the same stream I would say that any shortcoming that ryan did have falls ultimately on me I'm the one that trained ryan and I'm still we're still talking about things in terms of like different things on how to handle things So I want to say I totally defend ryan.  I'm always working on my moderating Ryan is working on his all of us as moderators are always working. That's what makes modern day debate As successful as it is is that one like you said, thank you guys for your support. Thank you guys for subscribing Thank you guys for hitting the like button. We are 14 likes away from 200. So we're almost at the hundreds of likes Number threshold. So if you haven't hit like we do appreciate it. Please do that But the other thing is we at modern day debate are always trying to improve ourselves. We are always Willing and even happily willing to admit that there are ways in which you can improve and we're always working on those And we will work on and improve on those But want to say life in a whole good to have you here says amazing J a m 84 says what the? Flat Sabbath good to have you here says salutes Nathan is good to have you here as well as Darth Bonson glad to have you here. I know who Greg Bonson is. I recognize that picture Free dumb press glad to have you here As well as Certain general good to see you says don't want to go into detail But I explain it the email I sent you I'm a little bit behind on email But I'll catch up with that and also thanks for your patience. Shane. Okay, sir I am catching up on emails because I know you also sent me one on Discord if you guys didn't know this we have a discord. It's in the description box Please do click on that discord if you enjoy discord at least I mean hey check it out see if you might like it Shane and the other mods do a great job at our discord. And so yeah, anyway, Shane. I mean Certain general I will check your email. I know that you talked about I'm going to work on getting that discord card on screen So for example at the bottom right there you see that that debate little card promo card For debate con and I am going to get caught up. So I promise you I appreciate your effort And I will use your work. It won't go in vain. I'm just a little bit behind Manual good to see you there As well as sim life And rendle project good to have you with us Want to say thanks for your support though. Love you guys. I gotta get back to work. I've got a ton to do today. I've got A lot of grading. I've got a lot of other stuff. I was hoping to go out for a hike I'm kind of mulling that over but want to say thanks for all of your support I love you guys you guys make this fun and I'm looking forward to seeing you at the next debate Which will be tomorrow night. We just confirmed it which reminds me. I've got an email mark Let him know that tomorrow is on Is I'm pumped about that. So let me know though in the live chat. How you guys doing? For real like let me know Tell me what's up because I like hearing from you. I like getting to hang out with you after these and just appreciate all your guys's support Seriously, uh You guys make this fun I'm reading the live chat to see your responses. There's always like a 20 to 30 second delay where when I say it on OBS like when I speak into the camera it takes a while to get onto youtube, but Thanks for your kind words. Sweet pea says hope you have a wonderful day hon. Thanks for that. I appreciate that Human girl says have a great day. James. Thanks for that sarah Sarah for real Shoot me a text. It's been too long. Manuel says great one James. Looking forward to the next one Thanks, Manuel. Seriously, that's encouraging living room speaker says have a great day James. Thanks for the debate I appreciate that my pleasure and all credit to the speakers. They make this channel awesome So we appreciate them and it's always fun for me. Mr. Spot. Good to see you says fascinating I'm glad that you think that Amazing But yeah, I want to say thank you guys. Love you guys. I hope you have a great rest of your day or night Depending on where you're watching Harley Quinn. Thanks for your kind words. Love you too And look forward to seeing you guys in the next one. Keep lifting out the reasonable from the unreasonable. Take care