Right now, it's seven o'clock. Expect people may continue to trickle in. So the top of the, can you, is that the same chair? A different one or the same one? No, it's the same chair. Hey, Peter, can you not put it back together so it looks like it's, so it's not so tempting? There we go. That ought to solve that problem. Thank you. I can take it when we get it fixed. Oh, yeah, yay. Can you get this one fixed? I don't think he knows how to do that. OK, we are called to order. We have 15 minutes at the top of the agenda for public comment. And this is generally reserved for items not on the agenda. But given, I expect that many of you want to comment on things that are on the agenda. But we also want to try to manage our agenda within the time we have. So what I'm going to do is dedicate the 15 minutes to hear from the public. But will you please raise your hand if you'd like to speak in the 15 minutes? And your name, sir? Patrick Fitting, FIONA and Lighting. Hi, Patrick. And Cindy? Cindy, Governor Mars. And Doug, did I see your name go up? OK, Tim and Anne, do you guys want to speak in public comment? Well, we've got a spot on the agenda. Oh, you're on the agenda, right? And Peter, are you here to speak as public comment? I'm here. OK, so during the ROAS report, right? OK, so we have three folks who want to speak during public comment. I am going to be absolutely impartial, which means I am going to set a timer for each person to speak for, I'll say, for four minutes. Four minutes for Pat, for Cindy, and for Doug. But why don't we just go in that order? Pat, you're welcome to join us here at the table. And when the timer goes off, don't take it personally. But I'm going to thank you for your comments and invite Cindy to come forward. OK. OK, ready to set go. All right, I'm here to comment on the lack of notice about the new position, director of public works. I didn't know anything about it. And a lot of people that I spoke to didn't know anything about it until I saw it in front page forum, in front porch forum. Those kind of things are not the same in my mind as a curb cut, brush cutting, whatever else happens in day-to-day business around here and deserve, in my opinion, special notice. You're talking about creating a new position. And the money that costs is a little bit more than what we usually would just slide, let's slide, I think. I think that this should have been spoken about until the warned town meeting day. In that town meeting day, the people, the citizens of the town of Calis, the taxpayers, should have been allowed to voice their opinions and vote on it. That didn't happen. I'm very disappointed in you people. OK. Is there anything else? That's it. OK. Just for the record, we did warn a public meeting. I responded to your email. There was a. I didn't get it. There was a public. You didn't get the email? I didn't get an email, no. I responded to your email. I will send it to you again. We warned a public meeting specifically for that topic. It wasn't OK. I will send that to you again. I do appreciate your comments, both in email. I'm glad you came to talk to us tonight. Thank you. Thank you. Good to see you. Thank you. I will forward that email to you again, Pat. How much position? How much is it? We haven't hired anybody yet. We haven't hired anybody yet. You want to budget? No. We have a budget in mind that we're not prepared to discuss tonight. It is budgeted within the budget. I will say that much. Cindy, come on forward. I'm going to stick to the four minutes. Thank you, Pat. If that's OK with you. I'm going to go ahead and stick with four minutes. Look at you. Where'd you get that? This is what she needs to walk on County Road. Yeah, it's visual props. Well done. Does anybody remember when Danny Morse came to town meeting with her in a gas mask back and he used to smoke it when I was meeting with him? And she tried to say something. She couldn't say anything. And Wayne spoke for her and said, she can't breathe in here. We need to change walks. And they did. Anybody remember that? Well, I'm channeling her energy and saying that I'm asking that we change the speed limit on County Road from 50 miles an hour to 40 miles an hour speed limit sign in Eagle Corner and then it was brought to 25 for the village. The reason I'm asking for that is that a bunch of people petitioned for this back I think in spring of 2019 or 2020. And we haven't really had a discussion about that here at the select board meetings. The reason that I'm requesting that is that I'm going to have a consistent speed limit all the way from Montpelier through East Montpelier to Eagle Corner. It's confusing to go 40 in East Montpelier. And that was speed up to 50 for a few miles. I think it's about three miles, maybe less. And then speed down again to 40 for just a few feet. And then you go down to 25. So I think it was consistent all the way from Montpelier right to the village. And people wondered that would be a lot of sense. I have 40 miles an hour. And then the reason I think that is because we have a lot of walkers. There are many children down in my neighborhood. There are people with dogs. There are people with bicycles. Adult ten children riding bicycles by my house. There are horses and there are drivers and I'm pretty safety conscious. And I go out there with my legs just seeing flashing. But it's fast. When you're going by a kithy and I think it'd be better to go back 40. Thank you for considering this. Thank you. You guys are doing a great job. Doug. That's the same thing about the way we do it. We have a lot of speed limit. Now with 25, I like to put some speed bumps in there. I make it happy, wouldn't I? I'm thinking about getting the mess of kithy ends.   And how about my post? My post on the wrong side of the road keeps the road, the town people off of the road commission and everybody else keeps them from stealing my lawns every time they grade it. Yeah, and I'd like to give it a new position. I really think we need it. We need it bad. Thank you, Doug. We really need it bad. I'm telling you right now. I live on that road. I see everything going on. I'm in this town. If I could comment about other things, but I won't. But you know how I feel about this. I don't like this. I think we need some other, we need some new blood in this town. On the road commission, we need new blood. I'm sorry, because we do. I see it all the time. We need it bad, real bad.  Tucker Road. Tucker Road? Yep. That big corner. I've had two kinds roll over and go over in and coming down that corner. Now that big road. Nobody asked me about taking that dirt. That dirt is my dirt. It's my dirt. It is. Dirt around its collar. Dirt everywhere. I think. Don't put that in the dust. So you're letting me down at your time. You take two minutes to me. Just like Congress. I like this. You're good. We need to make smooths here in town. Okay. I know that dirt belongs to me. Nobody asked me about that dirt. And I don't really care, but I'd like them to ask me about it. And when they dig at this juncture there, two kinds of rolled over there right in front of me. I don't know why they didn't get killed. Because they're in there. Pelt chance. Donner's, boyfriend's did it. And he had a spare, two spare tires in the back seat. And we bring it down. They didn't get killed. You and I would have been dead. You know what I mean? So, and that dirt, maybe I'll measure it up and they'll send you guys to war. Probably won't. But, you know, the way I look at this, they're gonna take the greater and they're gonna push that dirt slow by sure into the ditch. So that cone is wider. Wider.  They do that. They do that. They do it. You notice it down by your factory street. You go that way. You notice how I don't get any wider in that corner where the septic to where the, just have a well and sit. You know what I mean? Yeah. And that's getting wider because they did the same thing.  The ditches will look up and down by the town. I got a complaint from your neighbor about the ditch being too deep. And her lagers couldn't get in there. And she was concerned. Same person.  The ditches are so deep. And they did the same thing to George Road. You know, the first time we did it, I thought, I can't meet anybody here. And then now they got the dirt. They come along with a grater and a little grower. And I push it under the hole and you don't notice it. But I do. Because I live there a year around.  We're gonna do something about it. Or I am. We're just gonna be up. I don't know what we're gonna do. We gotta stop this. I mean, there's 45, 50 miles an hour by my house and they don't use it. And you know yourself. You try to get them to slow down.  Well, I did something about that one. Yeah, well, he's going by my house tonight. Hey, okay. So thank you. I hope you're gonna stick around because we have a lot of time, a lot of pieces of road stuff on the agenda. Tonight's like roads, roads, roads, the whole thing. And some of that is the speeding. Yeah, some of it is the speeding. It's gotta stop. I'm done with it. And you guys have talked and talked every year. Give us to you. You hear me talk about this photograph. Speed. We're doing something. Well, it shows you how difficult it is, though. It shows you how difficult it is. We're trying. We're trying to come up with different ideas. But winding roads, winding roads results in faster speeds. Right. Okay, so let's move on. Thank you. Thank you. Does anybody else want to speak? We have a couple of minutes, but I want to thank Doug and Cindy. Thank you very much for helping us work within the public comment time on the agenda. I really appreciate that. We have warrants circulating something. Yeah, do you know our school crossing guard there, Cindy? You missed my presentation. You'll have to watch the recording. Yeah, you will. Okay. So the next item is the consent agenda. Doug and Cindy. Okay. Okay. We're moving on in the agenda. Consent agenda. We are removing the minutes from June 27. And 27, 28. And 27 and 28. We will put those on next time. And let me ask the board if there's any other things that need to come off for tonight. No. Okay. Is there a motion to approve the consent agenda? Second. Okay. Any other discussion? You got stuff for us to sign. Thank you. All in favor, please say aye. Aye. Opposed? Staining. Okay. On we go. All right. Rick, the big speed carts. We have, I don't know if you all look at the agenda when Denise posted it. We have half an hour on speed carts, but that relates Tim to the county road speed proposal. And Doug, all of this is very relevant for whatever we can end up applying on Lightning Ridge as well. So, so we've got between the two items on the agenda. We have until 805 to talk about speed issues. So Rick, I'm going to let you begin. That sounds good. So, part of these speed issues we're having around town is, you know, just on Lightning Ridge and county roads, those aren't the only places. They're extreme places. And particularly, county roads, I believe, that have, we've got a lot of kids riding around that in a vehicle corner and we'll put them on there or anything else. But one of the things we're approaching, and looking at more of the speed, size, but we'll put it for generations as we've got a vehicle corner. So both of these is simultaneously. And the maple corner sign is placed wrong. It should be, it's right down in the village. You can hardly see that. They're speeding. They, it takes hundreds of feet for them to decelerate. So there are three maple corners before they're moved. You need to move that up above, up into the high 25-side. They're actually very effective. But what I've done is I've priced out, I've found some more speed signs that are kind of this next generation that we're looking at. They're proposed that we buy one if not two of these tonight.  We've got a clear problem on Lightning Ridge because it's long, it's straight. It's a gamble run all the way from, you know, from... They can see from... I know, we live in... I know, you was there. I know exactly where, and you're right. And so what I'd like to do is get, for the time being, like a semi-permanent speed sign up, actually up near kind of just down below, kind of between Tucker Road, or below Tucker Road in that straight. That's right. And that's coming off that long grade down and they're going too fast. So we're getting toward that school zone. We have to decelerate before we get the big hill there by beyond your farm in front of it. So these signs do... This is a different generation in that we can not only, you know, set... have a radar speed warning that people are speeding. It also counts and records the speed of every vehicle. It comes along in time stamps. So we can use this like a counter. With that, we can do two things. One thing, we can see how effective we're being. We're seeing how people are slowing people down. These really work. That's part of the state. You have your private speeders, but that isn't meant. It's 5% to 10% of the drivers. We'll deal with that in other ways. But the first thing is get the bulk of the traffic. As you know, when you're driving, people are driving... They're in lava land most of the time. I did roadway design. This is... And what these signs do is they bring people back on pass and they say, oh, it's a speed and we've got to slow down. So we'll do that. We'll be able to verify speeds this way. We'll see when... And this tracks it by half hour intervals. So we'll see how many vehicles are going at what speed by bank. And we'll know when they're traveling. One thing I used to do hundreds of years when I was a senior transportation by the private economy. All for three seasons on a year. And traffic, what you see, is very... their patterns of movement. We'll find out when the really serious speeding is happening. And that means we can be really searchable about higher insurance to come in. We'll know when those cars are moving. And so we'll be able to... It won't be random. We'll be able to see, you know, when to really look for... And I think for us too, I'm looking at traffic to start with by... If we can, two of these. One that we can also use, we can actually put different messages on it so we can... When they let me sign it, you don't actually have traffic in place all the time. You could have been for a few months. And then there's a residual effect for several months. It'll slow down traffic.  You can move it to actually different locations on like a bridge. I'd like to have two or three places. So we can break speed, you know, up toward Rick Winston's after the... When they first started celebrating, you know, down for that run until there. And then you'll move those periodically, you know, once or twice a season in the summer, maybe through the live Instagram, hopefully we can do it. But, you know, kind of move it up to that road. So those aren't wheels? No. These are on... There are two types that we're looking at. One is more of a... It's actually generally a permanent sign, but it's on a pole that screws into a base that's mounted on a precast concrete plug that's in the ground. So we have to put in concrete plugs where we want to put this, which is okay, because we can use... We never want locations, roughly. We want to put these in there. So we'll put the plug in the ground and we'll head out through the crew everywhere that is. It says every two months, three months. We can literally come unscrew the pole with the sign on it, move it to a different location, screw it in, let it run. So we kind of work on the driver behavior on the whole road. Now, I'm also looking at a different sign, too, that has... It is a really portable base sign. And then we can move this all over. Very easily. There's no base that... It's got some base. And one of the things about these, I actually too intensive using that. One is that we can use it on any road, including on Lightning Ridge. We can use this sign not only as a flashing... If you're driving, if you're driving 50 miles an hour, you'll find that it's... The uses are slowing you down, instead of telling you. We can also turn off the indicators and we can just use it to measure the traffic speed of your vehicle. So we can use this periodically in pairs. And we'll put it back. We can go out before we can put the traffic sign in place and run that for a week or three days. We'll see what the traffic numbers are, how fast drivers are moving. Then we just put it in the other sign and we look down the stream and we see if it's affecting the speeds. So we can use it to see if we're having any impact. And then there are a couple of things I want to talk to you about. Because you've got some good ideas. I do have some good ideas. Well, I'll give you a mortar shell. We'll sit down on the phone because your property up there is actually a really logical place. What happens with drivers when they drive what they perceive to be the safe driving speed of the road? You've probably heard me mention 85 percent of it. It's how they determine what the safe driving speed of a road is. And on rural roads, on county roads, it's in the 50s because your grain and your driving in a really rural environment without not having traffic, you're making a record decision a second. And so it white noises that line. It's looking at everything it sees through your eyes and it's saying, what is my reaction time? And you tend to drive for what you perceive. Now that's deceiving because you don't see everything that's a hazard.  Absolutely, absolutely. We took a, in Cornwall, when I was down there and I was working on Madison County. Through 30, we did a right in the middle of there in Cornwall. We had a 12 foot lane. So 24 foot traveled way between the white lines. And there are a lot of bicyclists and runners in college on that road. It's a real problem. We cut out one foot. I got the stick to take those lanes down to 11 feet. And it reduced the speed something like 10 to 15 miles an hour. Just like kind of one foot of visual weight out of that road. It reduced. Because it makes what they call chiming.  Well, yeah, you're right. And you know what, your trees to make your hedge does it really well. But there's some other ideas I've got. We're willing to play a little bit.  Don't get done. I get it. I get it. We're trying to do it. We're doing it. And we're trying. We got to do this incrementally. But I got out of the way of measuring it. That's why we're trying to get this speed assigned to things. So first and foremost, a lot of drivers. That should slow a lot down. But a lot can be done. You know, if we can, you've got a potential funnel coming there. It comes to your trees and everything. So we may be able to create natural behavior that drives it slow down. If you drive on a interstate, if you've all driven where you've got Jersey Barrier and Guardrail, people will naturally slow down when they get into those buildings. Because then they get scared. Because they feel like the cars are going to hit something. And that's what you use. You know, there are specific rules around that. That, I mean, Guardrail is never more than 18 inches closer to a wide line. Because it will push people over an adjacent lane. Because they'll think they're going to hit it. You know, that they're engineering businesses have been very carefully calculated. So, if you can use that with plantings and if you've had the Danville road up, you know, through Danville. They went there. They went down there. They did. They did it with the railings. They put in those white fences and grandfathers. White. And they had and it feels like they're going to plant in there. They designed it. They had cars there. I know. All the time. It's really expensive to do that though. Of course. It costs you so much money to do it. Even in tickets, you don't generate a lot of that. What you have to do is change it. You have to make people feel like they have to slow down. And they did it. They did it with an amountable island that you can still pilot. But it's still a visual island. So, it creates it. You don't look at that full-fledged road or both lanes and the surface. You look at what is to the right of that little island and then there's fences. And it naturally slows down. That's why that's all done. Well, I'd like to see the statement and also how these signs you go up across the road I want to see it not Calvary. I want to see a woman with big tails. You want to see what that is? I really look pony tail and big tail and I don't know why. It's not just man with a Calvary. Right? Maybe not I thought you were saying that. So, Rick, can I, so I heard you No, no, no. I'm not, I'm not, I'm not pushing you on time. I'm just wanting to drill into what we're talking about. Well, the specific. We're going to do that. We're going to hit the class in a second. I think some of them are planned a little bit. We actually are trying to plan this. So, you're talking about Langing Ridge and then, and then. I knew the county road both. This is, this is. Yeah. They could go signs could go anywhere in town. They can. Yeah. But we're going to start here that, especially the really loophole sign, we can really move that around anywhere. But then we'll get into the class piece of that in a second. But this is kind of to get this. I mean, the signs will be beginning with this. Ultimately, other villages, we need to have some kind of village and demarculate. A little sign is that you're coming into Naval Point or you're coming into, you're coming into the South. And that's part of bringing the drivers back on task. Don't say they don't work. It doesn't work a little, but it does work in combination with other things. You want to see, right? It's going to be, it's going to be a tricky one because, but I've seen it. You know, we've done it on our towns on, like the Western Quarter, 116 and on US 7. You know, how many, there are a lot of cars and there's a lot of speed on those for 22As, a big problem for it. And it's, so you have to, we, you know, this is where I think we can start to real listen. It's going to be a combination of things. And then we're going to use enforcement to, you go, it's not a one-phase effort. So, I think first thing we do to start, let's get, let's get everybody, I think the flashing signs are really effective at getting 85% of the drivers slowing down, putting some on task and then, okay, I'm going to slow down here and we'll see fast. I think you've put one up, up where we got a post in the ground right now on, I'm going to record it just before you get to tuck a row.  If you do it on that little peninsula right there, you know what we're going to do. You're right, hopefully they don't, we're trying to get one. They'll shoot it up back at them, but they won't tell them because I'll be there. Good. We'll get you a cowboy hat. That's what I should be seeing. And I think they have a, I can read you from my front watch. Well, we'll try, we'll try that. I'll win there. I think this is a problem. Believe it or not, the signs are built with really shock resistant polycarbonate chuggers. Not that they can stop high particle, I know, but it's, because this is not, we have trouble with this all over the country. You're putting a nation to it. Well, let's, let's get some more guns. When is this country's black team? Hey, while, while I got just a sec, I talked to Rick earlier this week and I appreciate his knowledge and information about it. I'm still going to go ahead, Rick, and throw out the economy model. And that's, I found some roll up speed pumps. They're 275 pumps.  Somebody will steal it within, probably a week, anyway. But as an immediate, like, I don't know how long you're looking at, how long you're looking at this. Well, we're just, we're going to try a person, see, probably be, that's all the delivery time for, I doesn't, I mean, ideally, we should go on this tonight and get, and then, as soon as we get them, we can actually solve them. We can't vote on it tonight because we didn't, we, no, we, we didn't warn it because I didn't know whether you had a very specific, crisp proposal. But if you, if we can get to a very crisp proposal. And we'll do it next time. I would not, I'm going to say something about speed bumps on that hill. I mean, this is from my design days. Yup. And I said to you, you know, I wouldn't start with that because that creates a hazard on downhill. It's not an ideal. Well, it's not a near ground thing. It could be two or three days a week or on a busy weekend you can do it. Because I saw, I was going down in the maple corner and I told you that the other day I was going down in the maple corner and I saw line of three cars. Everybody's going 25 miles an hour fine. And the second car of mine decided it was a good idea to pass the first car. Going down in the maple corner. Would you know if we did, if we did something like that kind of thing, I would not put it down on the hill. I would not, that's the, what I would, what we could do is do something like that above the hill. So you slow down. Can we, can we, can we shift back to, let's, Tim, I want to keep us on top of the, the speed carts and how they would work. So Rick is describing a couple, a couple of speed carts and carts is the wrong term. Speed poles? They're radar signs. So we can, radar signs. I am going to be the worst. So this is important when he's, because it's original, you know, idea is not bad thinking. But there's another option and that is, instead of what would, could work up there is grooved pavement. It's a reverse of the speed bump. It's what they do at, I told them, it's what they do at, that's what they do on interchange. That will throw a vehicle wheel into the air. And then it makes noise and vibrates them. So if we do a series of those, up at the top of the hill, they're grooved pavement. Like rumble strips. Like rumble strips that you see off the edge of the road. But these go across the road. So, you can't avoid them. And you can plow over them. There's no removal. So, I've talked out about that. And he, you know, he, I think that's a pretty good idea for you. And we do that above the hill. So, people slow down before they hit the hill. Because de-solidating on a downhill is not a very effective thing. You've got to get them before they hit on a downhill. I don't like them. But, we can, I'll stop there. We can talk about that more. Yeah. That's fine. I just, I, just wanted to still throw that out. I think, Yeah. Just as as a taxpayer, I don't know how much these signs are going to cost, how much they're going to pay. I think it will obviously be in style and that takes a lot of material. If it's a $15,000 project versus 275, I'm going to 275. Well, hang on though. We have a spot and talk about that. I want to make sure, because they're not, they're not mutually exclusive. So, let's stay on task with the, with the longer-term radar signs, which, yes, are more expensive. But, They're also highly effective. You know, that's why if you don't understand that idea. Tim, we're going to get, we're going to get to the bumps.  But that's fine. Which is why I'm not going there quite yet.  So, yeah, let's go back to the radar. What it comes down to with these, with, there are two models, this, TC600, which is the bigger model and there's a TC400, which is a more mobile sign. The 600 has got, I mean, I put it in the folder. So, it's a TC600 that you're proposing? It gives, well, one of each is what I'm proposing, because it's harder to move around with the 600. We can do it, but it will be more expensive because we have to put in a concrete base for that one. And so, it is, besides the multiple sign, we have multiple sign options that we can, so we can actually use it for doing bridge work. We can move it to different locations if we need it to. So, I just want to, I saw that there were multiples and I didn't, I wasn't clear what you were specifically proposing. So, one TC600 and one TC400? Yeah. And then the base cost of the 600 is about 4,000, but, you know, if you put, there's a four inch, you know, it's a four inch, 14 foot aluminum pole that it mounts on, which is three or four inches of diameter. That's about 950. And then it's a steel base the total price on those is roughly around 6,300 and then whatever costs to ship here. So, I think, what we, what we need is on both, on each of those to have it distilled. This is really good discussion, but for a proposal have it distilled down to one page where we are saying, God estimates. Yeah, but, but here's exactly what the proposal is from Rick. The TC600 here's the base cost, here's the, whatever, X hours of Alper's time too. And is this something that you can, it's the, the cement things and then if you want a movie, you have to have a new cement. Right, this is the one where you've got a plug, a cement plug that goes. So every time you move you have to have a new cement plug. Well, yeah, you can have those already set and this only, this goes to certain locations, like this one, we would keep on probably making rich. But do we already, we don't already have those? No, we have to buy them. Either that or we have to make them. It's cheaper buying them. It's the way to respond that you bury in the excavator. And then there's a plate. That's where like, that's in that 6300 or 6500 for it's the aluminum poles 950 the, the extra, the steel base which the pole screws into is 510 and then this, the precast concrete foundation is 995. So what we need then is we need to take that information from that one and then the 400 or whatever, take that information and put it on a piece of paper. Right. So that it's right. So that, you know, so we don't have to look that far. If we want, if we want to, you know, to, if we want to put this sign, let's say we have two locations that we would need to, it would cost us about 1500 per base. Right. So that would mean we could screw the pole out with the sign, take it to different location. Because you got three, three, so you got three pre-set locations. Yeah, that would, now that, so that would be That's a 950 plus the 510. Well, 63 or the 60, the the 6300 I think that's, so that's, at least for me, when I looked at all that stuff, I have to tell you, it didn't take very long for me to be confused. Okay. No, no, no, we're just pulling out here specifically what we're proposing for Lightning Ridge, we want three bases that each costs this amount plus two moving parts. One is the 600, one is the 400. This is the cost. This is Lightning Ridge. And then, you know, we want later at, later in the year, budget year, or we also want right now to buy bases for County Road because when we finished our treatment at Lightning Ridge, we want to move over to County Road for a few weeks. So kind of, I think that would help all of, I, I get the concept and it's great. I needed to figure out how, where we wanted to go with this. Yeah. With pieces, I know that piece. So you would be proposing one of the 600, one of the 400, the 400, is that the one that's easier to move? It says the, it says the 600 is 67 pounds if you include the batteries. Yeah. 41 pounds of that. Right. That's not that much. You've got a pole and it's on a, it's on a. A pole is an addition. So it's not, it's at the top of that. So, it's not, it's, you know, you can actually mount those on a signpost, but like Alfred keeps in stock, the problem is you have to cast, you'd have to put concrete bases in, anyway. It's too much sail area when you see it. Yeah. So, and that would be, you know, a break, we'd have to put in a break away. We can do it, but it's going to, we'll trade it off. Where I think to start, I, to start, I would start with a precast plug. And then we can experiment. We can have Alfred. Okay. And we'll see if it's worth that. Yeah. Labor time, and how well it works if we use it on a break away. Because the kit comes with a universal mounting plate, that $4,000 sign, that lets us mount to a conventional signpost. So, I wouldn't start with that, because I think we test that. Because if, I know, I used to have to do those wind calculations, and a road sign has so much surface area, it's very light.  Yeah. And it's high, and it's got a, it's got a slower panel. And it's got a, a big sign service. So, you know, usually when, when you have signs like that, they, when they go gate, or they double post them.  So, these, these are much more robust, and these are expensive enough signs that I don't think we want to risk. No. They've got a good life, you know, they'll last for many years. So, so a few minutes ago, you mentioned that it's not, it's not a single solution. And Lisa, I want to make sure that we, we capture these concepts in our minutes, that one piece of it is this driver information.  Another piece of it is the design pieces you were mentioning earlier, Rick, that Doug has been talking about too. Visual cues. Yeah. Visual cues like hedges, what Danville did where they, they put a lot of visual, even like North Montpelier, people could argue about whether it's enough, but you have those visual cues of those legacy buildings sitting right on top of the road. Yeah, it's traffic calming. Those are traffic, right. And so, well, not just visual, but we've also talked about, visual is one way or one end of a continuum of how to traffic calm. Another is rethinking some of the specific design. Do you have some? We can. I mean, well, for a long range, anytime you make a road wider and straighter, people can speak. Right. So, for us, as a general rule, it's something we probably want to think about. And it's actually building curvature, I mean, that into roads a little bit.  It's amazing what that does to slow down drivers. They use what they call bullbouts, which are the curb along the road. They'll put, they'll bring that out and that's what they did in Danville. They did that too. Yeah. And they did it in Bristol with many fatalities in the middle of Bristol Village, because that road was so wide, it was, people were coming through their way too fast. So they brought those bullbouts out that did two things. It created a visual, a visual fun that slows the people down well in advance. They see that way out there. Number two, it brought the pedestrians to a safe point. They were crossing a much shorter distance and they were visible to the cars. They weren't parked cars. They were beyond them. So, we can use that idea in this world. And this is where I think Alfred, we have to work on going pulling that road with back and keeping that in, especially if it's straight, because if, if we can keep that in, that will have an impact on the driving speed. And so, this is something we have to work on. It's very difficult obviously because those roads do move. You know, your graders are not precise pieces of equipment, but I think we're going to have to be more deliberate about trying to keep them reeled in. And then I think, you know, Doug, you've got your poles now kind of keep the graders out there. That's the traffic too. Yeah, actually Doug, do you know what the problem is they're very dark and so they blend in with the shadows?  That creates, it creates a shy behavior that I talk about. And so, it creates a problem. You know, it's a cold but just throw it beyond my house and road is that much lighter than the cold. Yeah, well, yeah.  I know, you made me take pictures. Whatever you have a road of the state, why is like this? If you don't really consciously keep them pulled in, it's hard to do. And that's, but that's where too, you know, I thought of doing some moveable fence sections that I could build on myself. You know, that we could set up as chevrons in the right of course. What's that word? Chevrons. Chevron. Chevron, okay. If you look at the angle, there's really beautiful fences parallel. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, you can, instead of doing that, these aren't holding animals in. So you put them at an angle and creates a forced perspective. You can actually have one little further out and one little tighter in. So it creates a funnel effect. It's all vegetable. And I have a feeling that in itself, and it has Could you use soft places? No, but we can. You can use no ground. Just work. I think we need something, I think we actually have to build something that, not drill into the ground, I have to make some plates on it that would, that you could just sit down because we could play with these a little bit. And having the ability to use our signs to measure traffic speed, you know, that is that we can then see if it's in fact conveyed. I don't know, to me, we've done great a lot with traffic. I mean, you're, you're, your Cedar Edge does a lot. The problem is that there's anything on the other side, right? You're talking about that Cedar Edge, right? What? I told somebody one time there's rare birders that nest in that.  Give me that. I mean, you don't want to save that edge, right? I hear it. I'm going to save that edge. But I wouldn't. But don't, you know, control that highway a big traffic two forks on it. They come right up here and just check on it. So, so we have about five minutes left. Can I talk about the under design real quick? Yep. This is the 400. This is the one in that this is a smaller model that's really easy to move around. And it doesn't have the multi sign options that that, you know, can it still do the tracking here? There's it all. And we can turn it off. We can use this. We can actually turn the speed function off on it and use it just as a counter. Rick, that as you come down upper main street Montpelier there's one of those. These are at our size. Is that the size of that small one? I don't know. I think there's there's one of these national life. So, we can look at that one. These are very portable. And the nice thing is this is something we can use if we've got bridges. If if Is that a lot of cart or now we have a cart that has wheels? It has wheels. This is a frame. Okay. And you buy the wheels and you buy this. Okay. So that's similar to what we have had historically. Yeah. These are shorter. It's a little more limited. I think I would have one of each of these and this one we can use in a lot of ways. It's very mobile. And we can use other parts of town not just waiting for it. Right. Right. Right. I mean considering considering as you know Cindy and and Doug both said in the public comment that at the top of the meeting we have been we this has been a concern for quite a while. These are not these are not items. But my personal mood is let's not cheap out. Let's let's let's. I have a Capsar that. Real action lives and not just signs or Even not only science I would be disappointed if we stop with the science I really love listening to you talk about design and How are we building the the Here I really try I mean this science is good because time for me to mention we got an email from Carolyn Jarrett and Mike Michael Lionel. Yeah, so a lot of people are concerned about this so so bringing bringing other ideas and not just talking about them actually getting using leveraging your expertise to complete this conversation moving it's an implementation. Keep going. Well that's what these these are highly effective so it's gonna be a combination of things that does this. The geometric changes are expensive and take you know they just don't happen overnight but you know pulling in the roads we've got to start to do a little bit. But let's go. I mean the cost on these the battery-powered versions. Now the difference is on this the battery. Well I think we can put a solar head on this and I have to find out what the cost of that is. Rick, I think you just put in a proposal and we'll prove it. I don't think you need some marketed to us just whatever you think is right. Yeah, just do it. I just want to see if you're good with this. Absolutely. I'm going to attend more than you're supposed to. And tease up your design feature because I don't think we want to stop talking about it. And what I've given thought to speaking about speed coming to Maple Corner and I've given this thought I thought about it around about them. There's probably not enough room to set one up down there. But coming down the hill if we put kind of a false median that the plow could go over with a slope curve. And it either has grass. A mountain. And that would visually narrow the road. That would visually narrow the road so that when people come into Maple Corner there would be another visual effect. And if you do it, you do it at the top though. You don't do it on a downhill. You're shooting yourself on the foot if you do that. It's too hard for people to decelerate safely. You can't think about this just in the summer. So you do this and it takes hundreds of feet. They're going 55 miles an hour at least on that road. That's 25. The 85th percentile is on that road. I've looked at those traffic counts and it's in my 50s. And that's what people ignore speed limits. If they'll follow what their brain is doing unless you do a lot of enforcement. This is why you have to kind of... You've got a trick there. That's what I'm agreeing with you Rick. If you go above, don't do that down in the hole. Well you can start above and continue it down. So that's like your entry to Maple Corner. You actually don't need to. You guys are... Denise wants to mention a couple of points and I want to circle back to a point you're making and tie it to Cindy's point. I'm going to check and see if we can use our platforms. Can you buy these? Oh that's a good idea. Maybe we can get North of Maple too. Because like I said, it's not only speeding in Maple Corner and... West County road in North of Maple Corner. And maybe not just the speed carts. Can we use it for some of the design features? Well I'm going to find out if we can use some of the Apple money for some of this. Okay, you want to mention a couple of Carolyn's points for her email? Yes, I mean I don't know. If there's anything... I've got an idea that we ask the school to publish things on the newsletter and maybe on their website. Maybe they can send home a flyer to all the parents because I think sometimes the parents are oh my gosh, I'm going to be late for work I got a hurry up and drop the kids at school and they fly by and they're looking... How about putting the kids on the bus instead of driving all these cars up and down the road? Right. And paying for the bus. The bus is arriving so you can't tell them. We can't preach in. But I just think that if we can get some messages out to the school It's a lot of traffic. Send home flyers.  What if your kids were walking and somebody was going 50 miles an hour and they got hit?  So I think we can kind of finesse that a little bit. I mean, that's an easy... That's an easy thing. Yeah. I like that idea. I never thought of it. I think it's a really good idea. Because that's generating... Especially your peak hours. I mean, your school hours. It is. It is. It's definitely... It's five minutes before school starts is when the road racers come. Right. It's not only that though. I walk at least not on Lightning Ridge. Is there something in... Is that one of the... That was like the one that was jumped out to me. It was like really quick and easy to do. And all the other things that she mentioned... We're hearing. Yeah. And I don't care. Yeah. They've all talked. Yeah. And I've talked to them as well. Yeah. So the other thing though is we're talking about Maple Corner and Cindy's point, Cindy, I think, is what you just said. People are going 50 miles an hour on County Road. No. They're going 60. But we hope they can slow down to 50. Well, whatever it is, it doesn't work well for the bikers and the pedestrians on County Road. And so Maple Corner Solutions is one thing. But that 50 to 60 miles an hour well out is something else as well. Yeah. I think that's where... We're talking about, right? Right. And the data shows, in fact, you know, that 50 percentile, which is... That's where traffic studies look at, right? This is an international standard where they go out on the road, get a non-rush hard time mid-afternoon, perfect conditions. They take not a hundred non-continue cars, basically. They're not bumper-to-bumper. And they measure the speed for the radar code. And you align those in order of speeds, lowest of the highest. Whenever that 85 percentile is, that's the safe driving speed of the road. The traffic counts that we have, they automatically do an 85 percentile. I don't know if there's... So, you know, kind of by statute, we have to use... Like, the state doesn't like to deviate more than five miles an hour off of that 85th with a speed limit. Because people ignore it. They say, as it creates, it makes criminals out of it some people because they're going to speed. So, this is why you try to use traffic calling instead. Now, that doesn't mean we don't do it. It can be a problem for us if we go to court over it because it's kind of right in the statute.  That's not a good practice in that short period. That's actually making driving more dangerous. So, I'm not completely against this. If we do it, we're kind of breaking the rules but we're doing it probably for a good reason in there. I mean, let it go up to 50. I'm actually going to stop you guys because we're heading into another conversation. Point taken, Rick. What I heard you say is that even though the statute says and even though the standard is 85th percentile I want to amplify the point you said which is because John and I are sitting over here saying that doesn't... that has nothing to do with the pedestrians and the bikers and everything else. So, that's great. That's what the statute says but we've got a lot of other issues that we're trying to incorporate into responding to our citizens and making our roads safe for everybody. So, I'm going to stop us right there. You've said that you are going to put a proposal... Fixed numbers. Fixed numbers, one-page proposal that we can have agenda for approval on the next... July 25th. If we could use our money for that one month. Okay. July 25th. I'll have the answer. Tim, I do want to be able to turn to Tim and Anne if you're going to speak as well. And if you'd like to join us up here and talk about yourself. I think given the previous conversation I don't know how much you're talking as far as money. Well, for two of these... It's thousands. It's 12, 15,000. It's thousands. If you're going to spend that kind of money why don't you just get a radar that takes pictures. They use them in France. They use them in Taiwan. I'll tell you the simple reason because it doesn't tell the driver the right to develop it. That's how it works. When they get the ticket three days later. Well... They can't tell the driver it. They can't tell the driver it. They can't tell the driver it. If we want to get... I mean, the first thing that we do work is take... There are a lot of innocent drivers out there. Let's bring them on to town. If there's a posted speed limit and it says 40 and you're going 50, you're not innocent. Because it's 25 and you're going 40. I'm not innocent. There's no innocence. There's a sign. Okay, guys, let's stop. Let me finish. Talk about speed bumps, too. Well, I think we'll be fine. I still think that's a good idea. It's a temporary fix. And it's cheap. It's cheap. The town liability isn't that. You know, you might want to say something like that. As far as putting all these signs on, I hear... Excuse me. I can't hear what you're saying. Is there some chatter over here? No, I just... Alvin and Peter. Thank you. As far as signs go I hear that it might work and $12,000 to me as a taxpayer is a pretty expensive experiment. I don't... I'll check out the prices on the speed cameras and you could even have Washington County Sheriff's department administer it. I realize that people aren't... that isn't an immediate slogan. But so people figure out they can put mud on their front license plate and still speed, they're going to get a picture and they're going to get their speed. You have Washington County administer it. Alfie wouldn't have to do anything. Nobody would have to do anything from town if they're willing to do it. Right. Well, there's so short staff. We would have the sheriff 30 hours a week here. They only have a limited number of staff and so they allocate their hours. They give us what they can. It's not because we don't want to spend the money. That's what happens. And they can't get staffed. I'll just throw that out. That's another idea. You know, especially... I mean, these signs actually are really effective. But if we find that we have persistent problems and we can... we're not going to just buy... we'll be buying more than a lot of these around town. We'll be playing a little bit and switch it out and use it somewhere else. Again, it's okay. So I... Why don't we purchase one of these speed bump things and try that too? We can do it. Whatever. If there are 300 bucks, let's get two of them. You put one above and you put one down below. Okay. Who's going to put it down? Who's going to pick it up? Who's job is the speed bump? The speed bumps are readily installed and uninstalled. It takes about five minutes to... Is the state to call it the end? Yeah, it'll just be immediately state one end. I also want to check with our insurance to make sure that there's no liability issue. Yeah, we got to check state law. And we got to check. I was talking to Todd Eaton. Yep, I know you mean. Yeah, he works for... And he told you about these? No, he didn't tell me about these. He and I have been in conversation. I haven't really... We haven't really sat down and talked, but I was trying to find out, not just before I do a mirror background, that I was trying to find out what the town's ability to either alter speed limits on a state-aid road or such as a county road or do that. I don't know how many millions and outs it is. All I know is I've seen one kid squished under a bicycle in my lifetime and I don't want to see another one. And so, for the immediacy of it, I mean, you could do the speedbook over here in three days. Five minutes in, five minutes out. You don't have to have them all the time. I don't know what signage you would want. I expect you'd want to put a sign. Did you talk to Todd about the speedbooks? Yeah, I've been kind of emailing back and forth, but I really have sat down and had a serious conversation. Yeah, Tim, what I... So that's good to know, and Denise is taking a note. I'm just going to speak for myself, not for the whole board. I get that laying down that kind of a temporary speed bump is simple at that level, simple to get, affordable, easy enough to lay down. And then I go to, but whose job is it to put it down? Who's responsible if something goes wrong? Who's going to take it up again in the winter? And probably million other questions that aren't immediately coming to mind. Why ability are we even allowed to do that because... Well, that's why I bring it up. It's just a economical thought that will get us through the summer. My guess is the board's not going to resolve this until next fall sometime. And at that point, it's going to move for the summer season. And John's right. It'll just blow through the stop sign by the barn. Do you know something that you can send me about the speed bumps, and then I can ask our insurance carrier if there's one available? They got a recycle, brother. Do you have a specific one that you need? I was looking at the once-through U-line. Do you send it to us? Yes, send it to us. And they come in different lines. Yeah, I give them 8 feet, 10 feet. Can we just put them on? So we got a job for you, Tim. Right, Tim. Send it to us, and then we can check out the insurance piece. You've heard me ask Rick three times for what is the specific proposal. Same thing. If you can put an actual proposal in front of us, it might sound like a little thing. No, that's fine. You're doing a little leg work rather than putting it on us and not that we're not willing to do leg work. We've got a long leg work list to do. I'm okay. I mean, especially if you can do this temporarily, you can watch. If you slung down at the top of the brow, they shouldn't be going more than 25 down the hill. What I worry about is somebody hitting it down the hill. Well, I've learned the difference between the pumps, bumps, and the speed table. Pump, bumps, bumps. What? Pump, bumps, bumps. That's it. Send that to us, and we can work. Yeah, I'll send it to you. I don't mind doing the leg work, but I talked to Rick on the phone and I kind of felt it had gone beyond that at that point. And it's an inexpensive temporary It's not a bad deal. You can send it to Rick and he can bring it back to us as a specific proposal. Okay. Copy me as well. At the same time, I have no idea what those speed camera costs.  We're definitely doing another stuff. It's not going to displace the others.  We have to look at what we always ran into in work with municipalities before and through the state is anything that involves people on the enforcement side is very expensive to do, usually costs you more than you get out of it. So, the equipment's probably expensive, the processing's expensive. What we want to do if we can change the driver's behavior, you're always better off. You're getting better at that, much better at it. They might not get everybody, but that's where we start working on straight enforcement. And when you can be surgical about what you know of the speeders that are running through there, we can show when it's happening as a group. So, hey guys, guess what? It's 805. Thank you all for your time. Thanks for your info, Rick. And I can finally tell you what I mean by learning this as a fine adult. And I've looked and seen what other municipalities are not unique. No, we're not. Tim, thank you. I'm going to thank you. We've got Stephanie here for road standards. So, we're ready to move to the next item. Cindy, we're moving on to the next topic. Stephanie, are you you're welcome to join us at the table. The topic is Calis Road Standards. Hello. I'm so glad you're here. I'm thinking about this attack. Thank you. So, I'm going to frame this topic. Thank you, Cindy. And let you say that we have about 15 minutes on this topic. So, a few years ago a group of people, Doug, you were involved, Stephanie, you were incredibly involved. Others were well. Rick wasn't where I was. I know you were. We adopted a set of road standards for the town and we haven't kind of put an endorsement or, you know, just brought them back up again and stamped them again to say, hello, everybody, don't forget about it. So, that's the topic for tonight. Stephanie, I'm going to let you take it from there. Well, I wrote this letter to the sled board recently because I was feeling very upset about the ditches that were being dug on my road. Now, there's a long history. I'm not going to go through the whole thing, but the original intent of these road standards was the sled board wanted this group, the original group, to write these standards that we would maintain the rural and scenic character of our roads. That was the overarching purpose of these. And then we got into a lot of detail, necessarily, because we were working from the state's road and bridge standards that had been sent to the sled board and had come to the sled board. So, we don't like these. And around the same time, a group of residents who lived on the adamant road noticed that there were a bunch of trees that were slated to be cut down. The neighborhood said they came to the sled board. Around that time, I think it was around the same time. I'm sorry, Mark's not here because I really wanted Mark to hear the background. So, I think everybody else pretty much knows it. Yeah. But, you know, so, there was a group that said, okay, you write standards using, you know, take the state standards and do something with it and make it more callous-like, you know, and to maintain a rural and scenic character. And then, that was, I don't know, the first ones were adopted in 2014. Right. And then we redotted them. We redotted them. JC Meyer who was the chair, he left them. A lot of people left them. Conrad died. And so, there was a new group convened and that's the, those are the names of the people on here now. Peter was, I think, on and all the, the whole time, in any event. So, I was involved for years trying to get, working to try to get these road standards and they weren't in a number of respects and they never have been in some respects. And I don't have the energy and time to spend a lot of time now trying to work on policing it. However, when it happened to my road, I got really mad because those ditches do not conform with what the road standards said and they're much too deep. Some of them are much too deep. Much deeper than the road standards said that you're supposed to be able to drive a car out, not get stuck in it. And there's also the whole issue of the scenic value of our roads. And these big ditches have proven the scenic value of Jack Hill Road, at least for the time being. I know that things will grow in and they'll be a little nice sometime again. I've also talked over the years about how the roads are not wide but they're graded wider and wider. So that some of these roads that work fairly narrow scenic roads are no longer narrow scenic roads and one of the things this group spent tons of time on was coming up with different widths of roads that were appropriate to the type of road and the amount of traffic the road got. And from the beginning, Alfred said he didn't agree with the widths and they were too narrow and there were other people who disagreed. But nevertheless that's where they were, the select board approved them. We had maps, identified different roads and said this is this type, we have one of three types of roads or something. Anyway, it's been it's just been like it's like everyone done and I spent a huge amount, other people spent a huge amount of time on and it meant something but it hasn't been enforced. Whether it's an ordinance or a policy or whatever it is it's been... Back several years ago, we talked about how these standards really should be reviewed and revised. Some of them are out of date the road cruise says some of them are impossible to comply with and then so fine, if there are problems we want to deal with them. But at that point, it was you know, things just sort of fell apart I got frustrated, other people left and the select board just didn't know we didn't not do anything that's the one thing that's the one thing I'm going to push back on what we did Denise I think you were the one we we tried to get people re-engaged the point you just made about getting new people if some of them don't work if it really is impossible how do we update them we tried to get people engaged in updating them and while people want to come to this, raise issues with us it was incredibly difficult well, we failed to get people engaged in revisiting those that was two or three years ago it was a couple of years ago it's really hard to get people to volunteer I know that but one reason it's hard is that people spend a lot of time on something and it doesn't feel like you were not here earlier it was mentioned earlier we have announced a public works director position and that's part of why because we recognize a need for having a full-time person working with somebody who actually who isn't responsible day to day for getting a job done but instead can have an overarching perspective big picture but also get granular work with Stephanie work with the conservation commission what isn't going to work what doesn't work doesn't mean everybody can be happy all the time but hopefully we can move forward in having all of that good work actually mean something and it's not irrelevant to the conversation we just spent 40 minutes on kind of all no I know and Denise explained it to me I think it's a great idea I think of bottom line problems what you said and not just people I'm not willing to do it and you know I had a little back and forth with Kathy Koshansky today and I said hey Kathy because she was one of the original one time ago there was an original one and she got discouraged and left and I said hey Kathy people and you're back from her but anytime somebody and maybe Doug and maybe Doug Willey Doug Willey is still here and he's not milling he's got time to do it I'm building it right now but the problem with town 30 years ago we shattered white in the road and just now make them lighter that's the problem I'm hearing the road is too wide Doug Doug Doug Doug Doug Doug we all agree our road standards know what they say they classify the road to three different categories Stephanie will just mention that and also the road committee recommended roads that are too wide and wider than their classification dictates they should be narrow and we need to work on that and we need to work on that and that goes back to road design and speed and Stephanie it also goes back to having somebody that has time to oversee it because we certainly don't I don't say one thing but if you notice on your road how the greater is going between each tree that's next to the road and they're widening and scooping and become the next one they scoop in there like that and the cover lets them off on the road side again so I'm going to thank you Doug Stephanie are you you know one question should we re-adopt those road standards right now or should we revise those or should we take the time we can say the board has not departed from them if there's some that don't work okay they're in effect right now they are still in effect right now and part of what is supposed to happen with new employees is they're supposed to get a copy of those road standards and as we found out people said that they haven't received them and I talked to the road crew that day and I took a copy of the road section they had never heard of them you know and this happened a few years ago they had never heard of them but this was recently three weeks ago when they were doing those huge stitches on my road you know so anyway so there was a trading opportunity at the very least yeah so Mike to answer your question you know I think technically you don't have to re-adopt them I think it would be great if you would reaffirm them by re-adopting them now with the provisional that we're going to work hard to get a few people together to work on them because it's not going to happen it's fine I do think the narrow end of that was too narrow to be really safe that's my transportation that was because of vehicle width and Alfred I know what that would be slow down I'm not saying this for so long I'm talking about the very narrow we had in those standards we had different classes of road and that's the extreme you know Rick you go to France you go to France, you go to Italy you go to every European country and the roads are as wide as they were in 1680 and cars slow down and they pull and you know they greet their neighbor and they go by and it's a safety issue because they're going too fast if the roads are narrow they go slower you're misinterpreting what I'm saying I'm saying I'm saying we in the very narrow classes of our road I think we narrowed it too much I'm not saying the other classes and I'm disagreeing with you Rick you're not listening to me you're not listening to me you've got this state AOT head you know I was on Pleasant Valley road just the other day you know what that speed limit is it's built just like County Road but it's Pleasant Valley it's a scenically designated gorgeous road it's in Underhill, Mount Mansfield and it's 40 miles an hour and I was looking at the ditches and they use the wide excavator bucket and they hit their shallow everyone because they don't want people going off the road and getting killed it's a state road you're not going to have to cut trees you're also going to have to keep that long new shaped ditch we might have to do that on the next committee we can figure that out that visually what I was talking about earlier today your eyeballs read that as roads are the more you widen and open that the faster they go so there isn't you're trading something there in County so Hank did you have a question I think we should look at revitalizing the roads committee see if we can find some new people new blood to wheel off to somebody I was thinking of right off the bat Heidi let's get a mix Cindy across all the people that were here tonight Douglas and then we re-adopt the current road standards with the understanding that this new committee we can find enough people that are willing to volunteer to revisit the road standards we're hiring for a DPW one of the first things the DPW should do is chair committee chair the committee or work with the committee to it's a good training exercise for the new DPW whoever he or she is and that can be one of their first assignments it's a good way to start to get involved in the townspeople and what's going on and all that in the meantime we re-adopt them we do a memo to the current road crew and say here they are we need to sum you have to sign that you've read these like we do with the personnel policy do we okay so that'll be something we can award next item next week for a consens agenda well and I'm going to contact Tim, Heidi, Cindy and see if they would volunteer to be on this to re-visit the road standards and see if they would be on the committee to re-visit the current road standards and go from there and I agree with Stephanie's point I don't think adopt is right Denise I think it's just maybe affirm re-affirm it says they're adopted re-adopt them so it's a current date so it doesn't look like they've just been sitting around collecting gas my point is only getting ourselves and maybe I'm being too much of a lawyer here that if we set this item we have to re-adopt them we don't have to warn it we do have to warn it that's fine with warning it but we're both lawyers if you set this precedent you have to re-adopt it in order for it to be real I think really all we're saying is we're affirming it it's still real it never went away just affirm but that can still be the motion and it can still be a memo and it can still be they didn't expire I'm looking for them to say re-adopt it on the front page with a current date so that people don't think oh they've just been sitting around since 2015 I'm okay with that too in a different spirit because we should be doing that with all of our policies here's an opportunity so we will re-adopt it you did look at them I think it was even just last year because you got more road standards from the state as I recall and I think John made the motion to adopt them but only to the extent they're not that was a few years ago well and I don't think we I said we're in conflict we did do that but we have nothing good we have not been good about um pulling them up redating them, signing them again that's the best practice for all our policies that when we when we get finished putting out fires we'll take that up alright so on the next agenda and it can be on a consent agenda we will can I finish please the next agenda we'll have an item that on a consent agenda that we re-adopt the road the road standard and that we send a memo to the road crew um and they have to sign off that they've read it there you go I don't know when this would be appropriate but I mean there's issues that are not being complied with that are rather significant and I don't know when I'm aware that becomes well I think you have to have a road committee that has to be years well right now what we have to right now what we have to do is move on so in our tonight agenda so we've outlined a specific next step Danisha's mentioned more than mentioned we've outlined that we have posted and advertised for a public works director very this and many other things that we talk about every meeting are the reason that we created that position so this is the second item tonight why we have that position so what we're going to do about it Stephanie is the same as speed we've created a position because obviously us as a five person volunteer board is not able to keep all these balls in the air effectively I need to say something here okay go ahead and I'll try to see your hand we have got to have some of the expertise you can say whatever you want to me I've designed a company that watched deaths and I've watched profits particularly what arose because they're not properly engineered and I know that Vermont standards are built the Ashcoe standards which are national standards 80% of the U.S. is supportive we know Vermont standards are a very dumbed down version of them and we're really rural by Vermont standards so I get that that there's certain you can't have just lawyers say okay this is a rover because there are real serious safety issues that I will bend I know what the ramifications are of building these too narrow they only exist narrow I know they only exist narrow stop stop we're done with this Stephanie thank you thank you so much you guys can discuss this over beers somewhere and and on the committee yes I know Alfred do you have a comment yes thank you Stephanie thanks Stephanie I think she should hear this too see if she brought this issue up the town of Calis along the other towns the many other towns around gets so every supply house so the grant line has a different criteria than that the fall there's this new general permit that we also have a slight force line we pay money it's the state of Vermont has to do with the Lake Champlain cleanup they provide us money for doing those ditches there's a certain way they have to be done that's when I'm trying to fall another one is better back roads we get a lot of grant money from them that's a whole other standard another whole size of a ditch another whole reasoning for doing that it's not just it's not just the town policy that we need to follow if you guys want to if you guys want to turn down that grant money then we can just follow our own little policy and everything is happy but you got to think about that money that we're getting from grants it's a lot when we first adopted the road standards I remember we had we sent it to the state and they had to sign off on it so we can do the same thing again well or we may not need to if they've already signed off on them the way they are but if we make changes then we would have to go back to the state and get their blessing again and they did give it to us I think it sounds like we should find it because it's a change general permit is like so okay so after good point but also excellent hang on excellent cat a point that it turns out perhaps they're negotiable perhaps excellent ideas will be heard and acknowledged so I'm not willing to assume that just because it says this that there's not some link that says here's where you tell us alternative proposal is I don't even know the nitty gritty but I wouldn't assume that that's not possible it sounds like a few years ago it was it was and we dealt with that guy at VTRAM you know what I'm talking about right well I'm talking about and we can go back and we can put on the front page of the road standards approved by VTRAM and the date that they did that if we make changes going forward we know that we have to go back to VTRAM and get that approved so that's you just do it but there's also a question about standards do they need to follow no it's a big issue when he's raising about grant money and that's a big issue but that's something that needs to be discussed not ignored you know it's not something that should just he should just say well I have to follow the standards according to one of those catalyst standards it's got to be dealt with you go to VTRAM and say here's our standards do you approve that and then when you apply for a grant and it invades you to natural resources this is about a large part okay guys we need to move on thank you Stephanie so we are we're eight minutes we're eight minutes eight minutes over yeah Peter we didn't have I didn't hear from you guys that you had done your report I think we were looking for something in writing that you have a a strategy we do have a strategy alright so let's put Peter's here let's put this to bed do you guys want to join us almost three hours thank you both for doing that just last week I think it was Tuesday then we drove and backed in on the form of actually we did two because one only had two houses at the very end and the district that I've been leading while term for the last for a half a dozen years and Alfred has not been going for the last four years and and Alfred showed me that the line of sight is really very bad we backed in to every driveway and so it was for me walking on it and not going into the driveway it didn't seem so bad and so I also went down to East Montpelier and talked to their road foreman about going to road sites and the danger of not being able to see coming out of roads and I saw what he was doing for a while and I'm there and it seems to be making a good difference with his mind I think so I said I asked Alfred if you wash your machine before you come over and mow the road sites then I would pull my permit withdraw my permit your application wow and then I could continue doing my wild turtle study without much fear of new seas being brought in oh good solution you guys can we communicate with each other well I think I would let you see Slantcourt here communicate with Slantcourt in East Montpelier but what they're doing about wild turtles because I think so you have a program they can implement they don't have something in writing in the stories they know but actually Denise you sent me to a meeting half a dozen years ago that well you didn't send me you put it in the front porch floor I went and one other person in the callus went and they were working on it it didn't work that can we get Alfred in Alfred in what's his name Alfred I think it was name the Slantcourt isn't out there with a side it's what the road group is doing under the direction of the Slantcourt I guess I didn't hear you you want the Slantcourt to go out with a side I said East Montpelier's Slantcourt is not going out with this it's my point Peter it's not what the Slantcourt itself is doing that is working in under the direction of the East Montpelier's Slantcourt well I think that may be so but there's no reason why this select board can't request that Alfred meet with Guthrie and then report back to us what are they doing differently what are they doing so that's an assignment we can give Alfred or our new public works director well that too what they started doing was mowing a lot wider which covers two things it covers the safety of people coming out of driveways it's also a great Guthrie was very clear about how different Callis and East Montpelier's landscapes are and they've got a lot of febles coming down they don't have the woods coming up to the road but they went out and they bought a better machine and they worked really hard again 125,000 dollars and don't forget Guthrie used to be on the Callis road group that's right well they went out and they tried out machines and they offered to do a demonstration for me and I said well no I'm not the one that you need to do a demonstration for you know Alfred or maybe John somebody who's interested in it but what they're doing is they're mowing a lot closer which is much easier for them because of the topography of this road signs and they're thinking now they're trying out a flail mower which Alfred's already using a flail mower but it's a new one and looking at the road signs where they mowed and they're mowing double-eyed and they go by and they do the whole town one pass and then and they do the plants that are going to seed first before they go to seed then they come by and they do a second pass until things start to go to seed but they try to do the they don't start at one side of town where they go over they know where the wild turtle lives and there's no discussion going on in town and this is something that's never got beyond the select word here but the only thing I'm going to say is not for lack of our effort we have very much we have supported and encouraged an integration of our road maintenance standards with environmental standards we have asked for that and what I'm hearing is best practices that Eastmont players adopted that we can learn from and I'm thinking that is that a fair statement? I don't understand that but let me ask you Joe Angart they're working with Joe Angart when I called up the town office a few weeks ago to ask about the contract that you signed there was a study that Joe Angart had done with the college conservation commission they don't have a copy of it the town office doesn't have that's something that the town signed off on and voted to approve I don't understand that but I can check and see I'm pretty sure so Peter to be fair when you go to the town office you're speaking to the town clerk and what you're not speaking unless Denise happens to be there and can go into a collect board file and pull it out they just don't know it's not a chair of the conservation commission it's not being used but the town clerk it's not to be fair to Jeremy it's really not in his swim lane to be aware that we signed he searched for it that was before his time he doesn't even probably ours my point is it's like this road study that Stephanie just talked about he got done and then ignored my perspective that's the way it went you know Peter I keep hearing this I heard from Stephanie I'm hearing it from you we have not ignored it we bring it up Alfred will tell you we had this discussion routinely about the road standards routinely it gets fiery here it does it gets fiery here that's how I remember it routinely so you can accuse us of all these evils but I don't say I don't see it well good Peter come to the meetings and you'll see it you used to come to our meetings come to all of our meetings and you'll see it I don't have any more so you don't see it and you don't want to serve on responding to that responding in January he's talking about the work that Marc and I did to try to develop an application oh yeah so I get a lot further by going and talking with East Montpelier and we're going down to Randall then I go and get here I've been frustrated for 30 years Peter East Montpelier has a full-time town administrator it is not the select board it is not the town clerk the select board has a full-time the town it is a different construct and I'm going to now just bring you the same energy we are a volunteer select where we absolutely have been champions for the road standards for the Joanne study and what we are doing about it full-time from the beginning of this meeting maybe you aren't here then we created a public works director we are volunteers I do not have none of us do the time you don't want me to talk you keep on talking I want to finish if you keep on calling me Peter we don't know you put it out you keep on saying you're interrupting me this is our meeting I'm interrupting you Peter what I'm doing is pushing back on you I feel what you're saying is unfair I don't think so you think it is we bought a dedicated mower we bought it, we didn't have it we had to rely on a contractor and a contractor went around once and he said he'd do it the second time and he said he didn't for whatever reason he didn't his machine broke or he had other work and moisture and then so we said we're going to get our own dedicated machine so we can do this ongoing that's what we've done and we've been how long ago we bought a machine three years ago and we've also come up with them so we're trying to build a program around your ideas and that's not good enough for you no it wasn't around my ideas it was you bring it up but I also handed in a permit two months ago now and you were on the schedule for two weeks from now and this is I've been 30 years I volunteered for things and I'm not going to volunteer anymore and Joanne Garten study that you're talking about this is the first time you've raised it that I can remember and it was this winter I asked if it was in it wasn't on the town website yeah I know all the documents are on the town website and that's what he told me and so he spent the day looking for a part of the day well you might have wanted it's a conservation issue it's a select board issue you could have contacted us you could have contacted you could have contacted Stephanie I work as nothing to do I've tried to get select board members to go down even as far as route 14 right here in Dallas and look at the wild terrible and you don't have time so you don't like what I'm saying this is my view great my view I'm 14 I see the terrible I see what you're saying it's everywhere and this is why I've given up on that good I have someone else to come I'm pleased that you and Alfred had a really productive time together and you have a solution we will make sure that the solution that you're bringing to us is documented in our minutes Peter are you tonight withdrawing your application or do you want to wait no so tonight you want to withdraw and Alfred has promised that he would and you're just I didn't get an answer I'm not clear on Peter's answer to my question Peter are you withdrawing your application tonight yes I am Alfred told me the evil washing machine and I said that I would withdraw my current is that tonight are you saying no is it now or is it now Alfred can I trust Alfred to do what he said and the minutes are going to show that Alfred Peter came to this agreement that Alfred will wash the machine before he does the mode and so doing Peter's withdrawing his application effective tonight do you want to come back in six weeks or a couple of months and tell us that it all worked out great I'd like to hear a final report you know this is we're sort of in the middle of the story right now so we want to have the ending are you willing to come back and tell us if it's working Alfred washed his machine in the mode so Peter to go back to the points you were making earlier sustaining the conversation and sustaining focus on a solution is part of how you achieve long term success so having if we all walk away we all know from experience if we walk away tonight in a year and a half we're going to be pulling up these old minutes and saying remember this happened I am looking for a way to sustain focus on an issue to do what you have challenges that we're not doing this is how we do do it whether you want to see it or not and so you coming back maybe in the middle of September and saying Alfred came a couple of times that is a way of sustaining the conversation that sticks in people's memories Alfred has a new way of doing things you have a new way of seeing things that is what makes the change that you're looking for are you willing to set your timer for one minute so that I can actually talk oh yeah Peter you've talked for a lot tonight that's what you keep on saying but I keep on getting talked over so are you willing to set your timer for one minute set your timer for one minute set it for a while are you going to answer my question I'm not sure I know what your question is but just set your timer for one minute Peter well you need to answer the question now we'll come back I can't talk Peter I will set my timer for one minute and then I'm going to circle back and I will repeat my question and perhaps he will hear at the second time okay what I've learned over the last particularly about wild turtle anyway over the last six years is that I could spend 40 hours replying to a one hour zoom meet with yours and I don't think you read any of it you didn't talk about it that's for sure not with me anyway and I can go down to Randolph center and talk with a farmer for five minutes while he's bailing out maybe 10 minutes while he's sliding bails into a sheath and get somewhere and learn how to do it I can go then talk to the people who live in the village and find out why they don't have wild turtle in their lawns and why they're completely surrounded like they're in a single wild turtle and how frustrated they are with it and find out what they're doing and find out but when I come in here prepared to talk about this two weeks ago with pictures you didn't have time and you rushed things through and then I talked to Seth Gardner I talked to Seth Gardner about wild turtle he's my world into it would you like another minute nope Peter are you willing to come back or to us in September about how it worked out in the end with Alfred that would be great thank you Peter do we want does Alfred have any updates Alfred do you have other things you want to discuss with us I think I'm good do we want to see Alfred touch base with is there anything else we can build into our process no that is actually so yeah Alfred why don't you join us so I'm going to go with the people who put it on these roads and tell them what you're going to do and panel email them as well so as I know you're coming okay well I think I'm ready to pull it tomorrow well give me how much time I need maybe two weeks what's the day Monday this is the 11th two days three days because I'm going to write an email to Monday Monday is July 18th Alfred and Peter one more thing how much time Peter you're right I'm trying to run a very tight meeting I'm sorry that you perceive that as I'm not willing to listen what I would like to know in advance is how much time you think you would like in September so that we can block enough time on the agenda well I'm going to I can tell you closer to the time I expect that I would expect that as well I'm going to give you 15 minutes which is which is more than we generally give for something like that but I know you have a lot of things that I would like to say about those things so that's what we're going to if you need more as the time approaches we generally start working on the agenda we can advance so don't wait until the last minute to say no no no I'm going to need half an hour let us know would you like me to give my personnel a report update I think we're going to have Alfred to join us and Peter thank you very much thank you Peter thanks Peter ok thank you that would be a pleasure to find out I'm going to write a e-mail and you go directly to her ok Alfred we're ready for you now so that was my idea yeah I mean it's frustrating for me that we haven't managed to convey to the town how much very much we have been focused on invasives that we have been so if there's some best practices in East Montpelier that we can learn I think our perception is it's your job to go over there and have conversations and figure out what they're doing and bring it back bring it back to us and it may be disappointing that people in town think that we personally managing the invasives issue it's one person into the notes that we published so so you're willing to do that I'm absolutely willing to talk about about this issue and bring some better I know his answer it's going to be most twice a year well you know we're all right but can you what Peter described is a more intentional more intentional mowing not just twice a year but mowing we're the level of intentionality about the mowing schedule obviously we know some of the locations where trouble is the most prevalent those are the ones we're going to focus on first that's what he's doing same thing he's doing but that's actually to be fair that's what we've I thought we were already doing that that's what he said I don't know why Peter's bug that's not me he said he had almost three hours in the pickup side by side driving around those four roads back into every single driveway and it seemed like he was satisfied and happy I'm not sure why he's flashing out on you guys that has nothing to do with it because he got attention from you that he's not getting from us but there's a difference you're an employee you can do that we're volunteers we meet twice a month you know why don't you go down and see prepare notes what are you doing or are they doing that we could and then we can have a report back yep yep thank you I mean that's all we can do is all we can do and I continue to do the best things we can think of how are you doing a good job on it so I disagree with Peter if that's his perception I think you guys have been working your duffs I see where you're cutting man you're hitting it at the right time in the flower stage so I'm happy yep okay alright so do you feel a personnel report for us yes we have one DPW applicant and the cutoff date is July 13 which is Wednesday is the advertisement still up it was advertised well we heard about it so we know what hit the ground that's right would you like me to make a motion to go on and take it to session no because I actually before we do that I just want to have one item that I make sure Lisa captures in the minutes if anybody else I'm going to jump down to the round Robin at the last meeting we approved and reported out that we are shifting to bi-weekly paychecks we're going to do a third party payroll service pay data and we have the contract that's under review now with the lawyers and Denise and I meet tomorrow morning to get feedback from our attorneys just based on their review and also we're going to go through a direct deposit yes yes I yeah once we get all this stuff figured out we'll be on memo 2 of the staff yeah we have a target date I think that's in the minutes we should make sure that it is of October 1 you're sort of the audience right now but really I just want to make sure it's in the minutes so I'm just can I ask a question on that the employees don't have a choice as to how they can pay well that's why you saw me hesitating my memory Denise is that paid data doesn't care direct deposit or a check we should double check I think they don't care paychecks a check paper check or direct deposit we can ask if they can do both yeah I think they could but don't quote us on that I think the issue is not the direct deposit it's more of a two week pay period no we're doing two weeks and so employees don't have a choice that's correct but it's not been standard it's not been standard it's not been standard it's always been I'm just again I'm going to share with Peter same argument I feel like I should be or the road crew should be in form of this it's a huge change yes Sharon please okay you're right now all of my guys, myself included now we have to change our whole and a little bit of notice would have been nice to know that this has not been open the open no one hasn't did you just hear me say we're aiming for October 1 it's now early July it's not next week okay well I think a little bit of discussion would have been much more comforting it's not next week it is several months out we are very much in the early stages so we are doing exactly what you're asking improved it improved it last week yes we did so that means there's no room for discussion there's no you guys looking at our there's always a reconsideration you can always ask for us to reconsider a decision approval doesn't mean it's in concrete you can always ask anytime there's a decision made out of it we have been discussing we have discussed this we have discussed this over the years when we were working on the contract the union contract that was the contract push back now but it was still in the contract I think we are probably ready to go into executive session I want to inform Alfred you know we had had a conversation with our treasurer who's now retired and one of the most difficult things for her was she could not take a vacation like you could blow out of here for two weeks she could not you know why she had to do payroll every week every week that's right no I'm saying you can you can that's something that you have available to she did not have that available to number one and the reason was because of this it's how the world operates today you know it's like so many things it's a big cost to the town to do it twice from a labor if we were to have a payroll company do it every week it doubles the cost so we are trying to cut corners so we can refocus money toward maybe a new tractor or a new mower we are always balanced because that's the only thing I don't agree with we're trying to find reasonable efficiencies where we actually can save money because shifting to a payroll service saves a lot of time in the town office it'll allow a person to take a vacation there's a lot of reasons there's the consistency piece too so if you have somebody a treasurer or a lead you're not in a situation where that's right Denise is serving as a payroll clerk right now so Alfred Farrett enough you deserve to understand all of our why's we're naming some of them right now Denise is serving as a payroll clerk because we don't have a treasurer so shifting to a payroll service allows us to sustain our payroll solution even as treasurers come and go it'll allow somebody to be relieved from weekly or day to day payroll responsibilities when I was trying to make I don't like the idea myself personally I don't like the idea in two weeks but that's not why I'm right it's more because you approve something without giving us a chance to put our input in or say why we don't like it or say I mean we're employees lost here I think you've got to form a better relationship with that because I know there's more stuff in your future agendas that is going to affect our day to day schedules and life I think you need to talk to us more we work for you and if we don't feel like we're working for you you're going to slam the hammer down and that's it then it's not a comfortable thing I'm just asking a little more notice a little more involvement that's it thank you Alfred that's on me Alfred I didn't think I could have communicated that down I just didn't think about doing it so standard the practice we were doing it but it's a big change it might be standard for all state employees or a nation it's still a big change for the little town of callous road growth it's twice as much money for two weeks instead of do you guys think that's alright then it's fine so Alfred we have down in this next meeting to meet with the new road crew members okay what do you consider new road crew members because they're all pretty new well we want to meet John and we want to meet Ed and Dana we know them we know Tyler from the contract stuff I don't know that was Paul that was Paul I would say John, Tyler or maybe even all of them maybe it's a time to meet them maybe all of them Microsoft they're all pretty new Alfred one more thing on implementing a pay bi-weekly one of the things that we don't have the details on yet is ways to do and no smooth the rough edges in the transition so yes we are going to shift we know that this is not that particular piece is not the most popular thing but we do know that we're going to learn some ways that we can smooth the rough edges to help people transition from weekly to bi-weekly I don't have any detail on what that might be but that would be a place where I feel like it would be absolutely appropriate to say here's some options do you guys like this idea that idea does that make a difference to you you remember when we were talking about that yeah so I don't remember what those were only I noted oh there's some ways that we could smooth the transition but again it's our target date is October 1 it's several weeks if there's issues that the guys have you know make a note and let us know what the issues are so that when they come to us or you come to us we have answers or can look for answers ahead of time right she married me so you know no matter what our problems or issues would be you can still tell us what they are right because well hang on but also we can mitigate we can make there's I don't understand how we do but the people who do this for a living understand ways to mitigate a transition and so knowing specifically if we hear from you specifically this is why one is weekly is better than maybe that informs a way that we make the transition if that makes any sense we should go into executive so I would make a motion that we go into the executive discussion to discuss personal issues under one BSA section 313 and invite the road commissioners to join us second all in favor they say aye post yeah