Bienvenidos a la segunda sesión de las terceras jornadas, la tercera edición de las jornadas reparándolo del pasado. La tercera edición de recolonització i també comunitats que eren marginades per la construcció de la seva històrica memòria i la memòria col·lectiva. Aquestes museums serien compartits i serien explicats a través dels llocs dels directors de l'Africa Museum en Belgi. Després d'aquestes dues papers, serem unes setmanes de preguntes i respostes i es faran que s'hi hagi escoltar. Aquestes setmanes serien explicats a través dels llocs dels directors de l'Africa Museum. Després d'aquestes dues papers, serem una setmana de preguntes i respostes i es faran que s'hi hagi escoltar i que es faran que s'hi hagi escoltar. El primer resum és que he vingut ara i vaig ser l'ambassador d'almost 10 anys en l'Africana. He vingut a l'Africa, doncs he tingut una neta d'aquestes i, amb l'aigua d'aquestes, m'ajunto a entendre certes sensibilitats. Segurament, crec que un museu és mediat. S'estem mediats. S'estem mediats entre el pass i el present entre l'Africa i l'Europa, entre les cultures diferents. I crec que hi ha d'anar. S'ha de ser vist, perquè sóc aquí d'aquest 6 mesos. A poc de mesos, seré avançat, però no tan tard. He d'anar a quatre main points. Et presentaré aquests quatre points molt ràpid i després començaré. Fins i tot, som no només un museu. Som, en un moment, un museu sobre el museu. S'ho explicaré per què. Perquè hem de preguntar-nos-ho. Com que ja t'ho ha explicat, què és la legitimitat d'un museu africà a Belgi? ¿Has algo como, digamos, un museu europeo en África? No, no, no. Hem de saber per què i hem de reflexionar-nos-ho. El meu segon punt serà que no només hi ha un museu sobre el museu i sobre el colonialisme, etcètera. També hi ha un museu sobre l'Àfrica i em diré amb l'Àfrica. Això pot ser important. Havíem creat un museu sobre l'Àfrica, però volem treballar amb l'Àfrica. És un concepte complet diferent. També hi ha un museu amb un rol en la societat. I crec que avui més i més, fins i tot en el XIXè, quan els museus eren creats, hi havia un rol en la societat. D'acord, aquest rol ha evolucionat, i així he de fer un poble sobre això. El meu segon punt serà que és inescapable. Si parlem de reparellar l'estat, s'hauríem de parlar de la restitució. Aleshores, quatre punts. I crec que he de fer una quarta hora, no més de 20 minuts, i he de fer una quarta hora. El meu segon punt serà que és per què hi haurà un museu sobre l'Àfrica. Per això he de dir-ho a tu, la història. Vam ser creats després de l'exhibició del món a Belgium, a Brussel·les, en què hi havia una xarxa, en un lloc a bit fora de Brussel·les, els grans grans de la lluna de Brabant, que era el lloc del lloc del lloc del lloc de la lluna de Brabant. Vaig tenir una xarxa de congo, perquè era un projecte personal. Vostè sap que congo no era una col·lí de Belgia. El govern no era molt comitiu a la lloc del lloc, va prendre la lloc a les seves mans. I va ser lloc del lloc de la lloc de la lloc de la lloc de Brabant. Però, de clar, va tenir suport. Va tenir un investiment, va tenir suport polític, i va prendre per la lloc de la lloc del lloc del bon thròmer. Vaig precisar dos anys de l'exhibició. Va fallar el darrere. Vaig estar de dos dir S'havia d'anar allà, les ciutadans de Congolès no eren necessàriament fàcils. 7 d'entre ells anaven i eren burits aquí a la viatge d'aquell que tenim el museu. I ell no va decidir crear un museu, perquè va veure l'interès de la suporta i el suport que va fer allà de la població. El museu va ser creat i a sobre de hores de les nostres col·lectius venint de Congolès. 2,3 de les objectes culturals, que són aquí, han estat obtens durant aquest període de les 3 estats de Congolès. Aquest era un període de conquistament. I també era un període d'exploitació. Vostè ha de dir que la roba rosa era el principal d'incompaç. I la manera que va organitzar-la va ser extremament violent, moltes vegades, i doncs va ser a causa de l'escàndol, el qual va causar a tot el món a les Estats Units, que en l'endemà, Lleopold II va decidir que això no serà la meva proposta personal, o la meva domània personal, que va ser una proposta belgiana i que va ser més de la col·lectius mainstream. Aquesta és la dependència del Congolès que ha estat un museu col·lectiu. A l'estat espanyol, hi ha un número, per exemple, en París, l'Africa Museu, o el Museu Mundial, que hi ha d'haver-hi, que hi va haver de l'estat espanyol, que va ser al costat d'una altra construcció. No ho vam fer, vam ser a l'estat d'una altra construcció per altres reasons. La principal por és que creiem que tot passi excepte l'estat espanyol. Has de mirar l'estat espanyol a l'estat espanyol i no pots ser legítimament aviat si no t'has de reconèixer els missatges, a vegades els crimes, que eren cometits en l'estat espanyol, doncs has de prendre en compte. Això significa que estem, a certe lloc, a un museu molt veient en el seu partit. A part de aquest partit, per exemple, va crear una certa manera de mirar a l'Àfrica. I tenim, per exemple, un nombre de statues, un nombre d'objetos, que van ser creates durant la periodes coloniales, i que confirmen unes de les estereotipes, de les negatives vius a l'estat espanyol. El que és molt ben conegut és l'estat espanyol. Tu veus un març, l'estat espanyol, que és en el procés d'estat espanyol. Això no és històric, perquè hi hagués l'estat espanyol, però en aquests costums, quan eren analitzats, no hi hagués mai even un drop d'estat espanyol. Aleshores, no era cert que marçés l'estat espanyol que anés a l'estat espanyol. I era una cosa que va posar a l'estat espanyol a l'entrada de l'estat espanyol, i fins i tot quan renovàvem-ho, perquè ara hem fet la set-up, fa 5 anys que hem movit això, i era l'almost la primera cosa que vam veure. Vam dir que no és la manera que volem treballar, però ho hem stillat. Avui hem decidit que això és l'estereotip de l'estat espanyol, i no ho hauríem de fer sense acompanyament, sense introducció. Vam fer una feina de missatge per no seguir repetint els mateixos missatges. Vam dir que no només era un museu sobre la col·lí. Sí, volem tenir una critica de l'estat espanyol, però no era el nostre només missatge. I així vinc a el meu segon punt. El meu segon punt és que hem de ser un museu sobre l'Africa i un museu treballant amb l'Africana. Un dels meus col·legs, durant les meves primeres setmanes, un dels meus col·legs congolins, va dir a mi, Bart, que no hauria de reduir-nos a la passada col·lí. Teníem una passada que és molt lluny. En el museu, podem veure, trobem objectes que es veuen darrere d'una copia de teus, que es veuen darrere de 2 milions d'anys, i ens veiem objectes de 200.000 d'anys en Congo o en altres llocs africans. Ens veiem un mascle que es veuen d'Angola, que es veuen d'anys d'anys del següent següent. Aleshores, hi ha molt més de col·legs col·legs. I, de course, els col·legs col·legs, en principis, han deixat d'anys d'anys d'anys del següent següent. Hi ha hagut història aleshores. I un dels missatges que hem fet, fins al present moment, la representació permanent de la història col·legal, veus el que els officers col·legs han fet, els missatges que han fet. Però el que hem de fer, o a més o a més, que tenim dificultats per mostrar, és l'acció de les congolies. Les congolies eren no només víctimes, s'organitzen, s'han resistit, s'havien treballats, hi havia una segona societat. Ens forgetem d'això, perquè, de course, la base de la nostra col·legia és col·legal, però això no és una excusa per no donar una vista balançada de què l'Africa avui és sobre. Això és el primer punt. Crec que podem trobar solucions per això. Hi ha fotografia, hi ha moltes altres sources, hi ha oral història, no hi ha res per què no ens hauríem de mostrar el rol d'africans durant la col·legal era, abans i després. El segon punt és que hem de treballar amb els nostres col·legs africans. Avui tenim una cooperació científica, biologia, biologia de la biologia, per exemple, molt important, perquè és lín de climate change, tenim geologia, tenim, de course, l'històric i sociològic i antropològic activitats. Per a nosaltres, és important fer-ho amb africans. Hem de ser honestos, tendim a anar-hi amb la nostra connexió, amb, de course, el suport de les nostres col·legues, i anirem a dir-los d'on anir-hi, això és gradually changing, una paraula de partnership, una paraula de co-creació és una realitat. Si volem ser balance i tenir una bona vista, volem saber si organitzes una exhibició o si tens un projecte de recerca, volem tenir diferents vies en un altre, diversificant les vies balance. Hem, per exemple, recentment, i és molt al cap i a l'entrada de l'Enteriors del Museu, tenim un espai sobre racisme. Racisme no és només una cosa sobre el passat. Si parlo de l'Human Zoo en 1897, bé, a Franck, en 1958, dos anys abans de la independència de Congo, hi havia una majora exhibició de l'exhibició a Belgium, i al cap i a l'altre, hi havia l'Human Zoo. A l'anterior, perquè hi havia congolins visitant, i hi havia polítics, va ser un escandal dins de l'estat, i va ser lluny d'anys, però, fins i tot, vam organitzar aquesta sort de l'Human Guàrdia, i hi ha una tendència de dir, oh, sí, Lleopold II, va ser terrible, però, després d'això, vam ser totes les bones ciutadans del món. Hem de reconèixer que, avui, a la nostra societat, és a Europa, i certament aquí a Brussel·les, tenim racisme. Un poc d'anys, una de les nostres researchers de la Congo, va ser a la transporció pública, i va ser físicament atacat. Amb un clar racista d'entrada, el nom de l'endord va ser utilitzat, etcètera. Així, hem de jugar un rol en la societat d'avui, no només en el nostre past, però també en el nostre present. A veure com contribueixen en el past, com a museu, a alguns d'aquestes serotypes sobre africans, però també avui, a tenir un rol en termes d'educació, i en termes d'operacions. La cooperació d'aquestes 20 altres d'africans, és molt important perquè és la manera per nosaltres, no només dos, em dic, en el nostre col·lectiu, fer una recerca, però també és una qüestió de legitimitat com a institució científica, a jugar un rol, insertar alguns d'aquestes bàsiques problemes, en termes de biodiversitat, en termes de l'edició de la rola que africana en un canvi climàtic i en un canvi climàtic, l'equitorial forest en Congo i en la rola de Congo, en l'Africa central, és una de les últimes places on la CO2, la carbonada, és captivada en una manera durable. Em va donar a l'últim punt, el que és molt linked a l'idea de reparació, és la restitutió. Des de l'any passat, tenim una llei, una llei belgiana, que clarament diu que el que és estolent haurà de tornar. És clar que no és necessàriament tan clar, tan clar i simple, perquè, bueno, com defineix el que és estolent? Com aneu a sobre la restitutió? L'engany de l'endemà és el primer. La primera condició per fer-ho bé és per fer-ho en una manera bilateral, en una manera cooperativa. Estem precisament, en sort de fer-ho bé, per tenir una clau base, una argumenta bilateral, amb el que l'ailem a transmetre. d'aquest nostre projecte. S'hi tancarà unanya a la llengua d'antigueres, I no ho hem de fer. L'any 17 d'octubre, jo em vaig fer una recerca per a les quals s'ha de fer. Jo no he tret la recerca de les dues recercions. I, per dir-me, jo també he tret la recerca de les dues recercions. Jo també he tret la recerca de les dues recercions. I, per a les quals he tret la recerca, he tret la recerca de les dues recercions. i estic convençut que molt més esforç es necessitarà abans que puguin arribar a algunes conclusions. La comissió pot fer una recomendació i la decisió serà política de les dues llocs per decidir, sí, considerar-ho estolent i ha de ser la proposta de l'estat de la Congolès. Hi ha alguns truques, perquè aquests objectes van originalment venir d'una comunitat i per què la comunitat no es claima d'arribar a aquest objecte. El principal és... el creixement és que aquests objectes que hi ha de la feina en la Congolès han de ser decidits per les Congolès. No és per nosaltres decidir qui es resta. S'ha de ser la govern de la Congolès i fer-ho en el millor possible. Però, si no hi hagi una consistència en la Congolès, es farà la legitimitat d'una operació difícil. El segon problema és que molts africans diuen que els objectes, sí, sí, són importants, però no només sobre els objectes, sinó també sobre la nostra cultura. Si és la ciutadania coloniala, si és les missoneries, si és la ciutadania sense dretes de la monog puffia, poi és la ciutadania en la gallery, i si és la cultura que té una imatge de l' performer zona, perquè encara no ho pot schlimre un machinery que vol dir har tools. És la trชelorelle psychoanàlia sempre ho ve malaria, i això no és un complaining físic i mala для els objectes, és l' trainor ni solvisible en un moment que no t'agradi. No volem ajudar a les gent que fan això. Si ens volen fer una bona feina, en termes de restitucions, volem això ser una operació legítima, que per això hem de cuidar no per fer-ho d'una manera una, hem de prendre en compte les reales demanes, no només de la Governa de Congolès, de la societat, de les comunitats. Això significa que hem de tenir una vista broma i també tenir una cooperació en termes de cultura, en termes d'strengueixar les capacitats de museums. Per exemple, i crec que és un projecte interessant, tenim una xarxa d'Europa i africans museum directors. En la xarxa d'aquesta xarxa, volem cooperar i ens hem de treballar en un moment en què ens trobem solucions. Per exemple, organitzar exhibicions. Per què hi ha gairebé cap exhibició de l'Africa a Europa o de l'Africa a Europa i de l'africa a diversos capitals? Jo crec que això seria una manera de realitzar-ho i treballar en un espèrit tru de partnerships i de tenir comunes projectes. Hi ha una última qüestió, que s'ha preguntat moltes vegades. Molta gent diu que això hauria de ser molt difícil per al museum perquè s'haurien de perdre una part de la teva col·lecció. Jo diria que tota la discussió institucional és molt important i és una oportunitat per a nosaltres com a museus del món. Si continuem com ens fem quan estiguem a l'aivri-tau, la nostra legitimitat com a partners, la nostra legitimitat de fer la recerca a l'Africa o a altres països del món per cooperar serà cada cop més contraversió. Per a la nostra legitimitat, com a museus del món, és essencial que entrem en aquest exercici i cooperem. L'objecte com a una altra no pot ser un objectiu com una altra. Franchament, a la nostra col·lecció tenim 120.000 objectes culturals, tenim 8.000 instruments tradicionals, tenim 10.000.000 espècies d'insectes, tenim 1.000.000 espècies d'insets, you know, sharing this is really obvious. And if, for example, I can see that our Congolese partners, certainly the research who are here, they look at the objects as a priority which are lacking in their own collections. And they say, we want to be able to respond to every community in our country and to reconnect them with their culture. So that is our main objective. So while we in our own legislation tend to concentrate on the reparation team, the view from the African side, certainly from the Congolese side, is more holistic and is one of reconnecting with their own culture. Where reparation is certainly something which is in the back of their mind, but it is not the only requests to which we need to answer.  Thank you. Muchas gracias, Bart. Thank you very much. Bart, I don't know if anybody among our audience would like to ask a question about the subject presented by Bart. We keep the questions for the end and we will listen to the rest of the speakers first and we will have a Q&A at the end of the session so we can exchange our opinions now. We're going to give the floor to Andrés Gutiérrez. Let me tell you in advance he said, doctor, history by the University of America, America de Madrid specialized in anthropology. He belongs to the faculty of conservators of the museum. He's in charge of the Museum of America. He had also developed other presences that's for example the head of the department and responsible for projects at that museum. He's also a commissioner of different exhibitions, author of several articles related to the management of collections and museum collections, archaeology and heritage, and also several monographies on mythology and archaeology of the Norandes. He also belongs to the research team of one of research and development projects and if I'm not mistaken, he's in charge of reinventing museums, right? So now we're going to listen to Andrés Gutiérrez. For about 20 minutes we can only ask you not to go beyond that time in order to have time for the Q&A. And I guess that you will also tell us about the different projects you are developing related to this change which these ethnological museums are undergoing with a new sensibility towards working on social representation, collective imaginations, etc. in order to revisit a little bit the history they've gone through. Mr. Gutiérrez, you have the floor. Thank you very much. Thanks to the museum. Thank you, Oriol, for your kind introduction. Thank you, Celeste. Thank you, Ricard, for being here together with us. I'm going to start by giving you a quick perspective on the new discourses and perspectives from our museum. You are probably familiar with our museum. It's in a very symbolic place. It's this green building at the entry of the university village in Madrid, Moncloa, near Alco de la Victoria. It was created in 1941, right after the end of civil war. So there is an important load. Sí, bueno, porque vieron la foto. Este es el edificio. So this is the building, as I was saying, was created in 1941 as a museum, but the collections date from much before. I'm not going to dwell on these aspects and all the aspects related to the creation of the museum. The moment it was created and the ideological load of the building or the history of the collections because I want to highlight aspects related to new discourses, new perspectives, and new subjects and perspectives that we are attempting to apply. These perspectives are related to the turn of the century. Since the 70s, museums have undergone a very important transformation, the new museology that was created in the 70s. And in reality, we are seeing how the new society, and we can mention the Queen Society of Regents in 1991, thinking about how this new society, Western society was going to be, or Bauman society, liquid society, to different perspectives. With the beginning of the 21st century, there was a transformation of Western society, and this is the context in which we can frame disruptions which are happening within the discourse which can be applied to museums. These courses that are related to the patriarchal perspective, a new line and vision on gender and sexuality, the Eurocentric dominant perspective, which is breaking away from this perspective, generating a new interculturality, new application of diversity. He's asking if he's going too fast. He's going a bit fast, but it's okay. This colonial is discourses, the one that brings us here, the new vision of this dominant discourse which is predominant in museums because in these new lines and discourses about decolonization and the invisibility of marginalized groups, generating new discourses related to the other, and also the subject of identities. Very interesting, an imposition that has been made. Art in general has contributed to generating a specific identity and how we are trying to be far away from these discourses and narrations. And these new values are related to a transformation of museums, a general transformation of society. How can they be reflected in my museum, Museo de América? Like my colleague, I have not been in charge of the museum for long, just since the month of May, but we have been able to apply new working guidelines, and since we cannot transform the permanent museography of the museum, we thought about incorporating new spaces of reflection within the permanent collection. No, those temporary collections, although they will be temporary. And these are going to reflect reflections about what I've mentioned, the heritage of presence of African descendants on gender diversity, on the construction of the image of America, sustainability, subjects or issues, environment, climate change, a general coincidence, because this responds to the new challenges of the contemporary society, independence, which is other aspects that in the museums have not been reflected before. And then the cross-breeding, a cultural mix or mixed culture, hot points for debate, small modules that can be added to the existing museography in order to provoke reflection on the visitor. It's going to be part of the permanent exhibition, and they can change with time, because what we want is to take a look at the other voices. This is not the discourse that wants to be generated by the museum, but rather a window that we open on new works. We are working on Afro-descendants, and specialists about the descendant origin from Africa. Our subject is America, not Africa, but there is some bonds. There are some bonds and associations that are collective, et cetera. So we are working in order to generate those contents. Let me mention four aspects, which are very much related to our conference, our discourses, and everything that we want to do related to this seminar gathering us around here. Covering memory through making visible those collectives that were invisible, we've been working on Afro-descendant presence in the museum, something that has not been dealt with in the discourse, the current discourse of the permanent museography dates from 1994, although ten years ago we started to work on this ten years before, and the subject of the Afro-descendant presence had not been considered important or was not dealt with. So we have an audiovisual, a theme path, and we talk about different aspects. I'm sure that you are familiar with this work of art. I'm sure you are familiar with this, and this is a deposit of the National Museum of El Prado. It was painted in Quito, representing what has been named and called the Mulatos de Esmeraldas. Why is it called like this? When the name of those people represented here is painted on the picture, on top of the heads of those people we see Fantisco de Arrovedo, Pedro, and the Right Bingo, and the Hs of each one of them. So one of the questions that we have to deal with, besides placing value on the history of this picture, because this picture speaks about freedom processes, the fight of slavery, mamas, the agreements with the audience, and how they become governors of a certain region. What we want is to reflect on the names and titles of the works of art. It should be named portrait of Don Francisco de Arrovedo and his two sons, Caciques of Esmeraldas, which is a province in the coast of Ecuador. So we are inviting a specialist, Julia Cabrera, Fernando Barbosa, specialist, and we have organized an open round table in order to deal with the subject that we want to deal with, and I don't know if it's very fruitful or not. Man, we have specific round tables in order to provide ourselves with the content that are going to be part of this, part of reflection. First content, and this is going to be changing, depending on the different voices that we hear and the needs for these voices and how we should approach new discourses within our permanent collection. The second aspect I wanted to touch upon was what Minho was referring to, the policies of knowledge, or politics of knowledge. We've always used the same criteria, the criteria of the museum of a specific country, of a specific culture about the others, because we are always speaking about the others and this dominance of the territory and thinking has been materializing the way we look at objects. I am bringing this sentence, and this is an article by Jose Marin, and as my way of reflection, and this is the first idea that I can launch here is to debate whether we are going through a new phase, which is a continuity of a phase that started back in the 15th century. I'm talking about America, but it can also be applied to Africa. Colonizing America began in the 15th century evangelizing the non-believers so we create different categories depending on a religious category. But it will be like the civilization of wild people. This is not related to the religious perspective, but the cultural perspective, whether they are civilized or not, but always naming them as wild opagans. And in the 20th century, we are talking about underdeveloped countries, and here we change our prism from religion, point of view of civilization, in order to speak about the economy, which was prevalent in the 20th century. What happens in the 21st century? I wonder if all this process, decolonizing process, I don't know if we can be focused on this or not, but maybe it can mean turning those groups and those countries into another country that has to be decolonized from Europe, where putting them in different categories. And if we don't have this line, we'll have another one, because in Europe we're always working on the otherness, right? And I was speaking about this single way of thinking, and this is just an example. We've seen a chair of the Manteña culture. This is a culture from Ecuador before the Inca conquest. And this is an object that seems like a chair with arms. In America, this type of furniture does not exist, and it's related to other type of furniture, which are high tables. So local chips, a Manteña sitting on a chair, we're using them as stools, low stools, and here we are categorizing, and this is something that we apply from the Hispanic past, from the European perspective. No chair to seat, no kingdom. Those suspects and those suspects have been categorized as chairs looking for this symbolism related to high hierarchies, such as the use of stones. And this is a way this has been represented in Ecuador. We can see an excavation site where we are building what we call Council of Local Thieves, chiefs, and these chairs, not thieves, but chiefs, sorry, these chairs which are called, well, this is just a western revision of something that we think could have been applied. If you are interested, I don't know whether to unveil the mystery, there is a publication called Metaphors of Lineage where we approach a new perspective and thinking not from the western perspective, this is a chair, but what type of object is this and what will be its function. And the third one, my apologies, I don't have a lot of time, links with what is contemporary. When we approach the past, we have to do it from a contemporary perspective. What can it mean for nowadays? And this is something I've mentioned before. When we're working with communities, we organize a transgender exhibition with LGBT associations, transgender people and children in order to see what did we have to approach in this study, in this temporary exhibition, including a cover of a catalogue. Working with the communities, but also bringing this to the present, there is nowadays discrimination about the LGBTI people, yes, because we've suffered this in the museum when we organize the exhibition, I can tell you about it, but we always kept in mind positive aspects because this narration has been incorporated into the narration of the museum. So far nobody spoke about transgender people in America when it's a permanent reality that you can see and any chronicle from the 16th to the 18th century. And here we were able to buy contemporary works of art, fotografies portrays by Álvaro Laíd in Venezuela, someone called Tidawina, trans women, and in Oaxaca, pictures of Núria López with these trans women. We also work with migrant communities, this is one of the essential aspects, we cannot speak about America without America, as our colleague was saying before, and we organized a projecte which concluded already, unfortunately, but it was very interesting because it was an open project, virtual project, where stories, videos and pictures could be uploaded in order to explain the narration of migration from the perspective of the migrant. We stimulate the production of some stories from the museum, but in Mexico they took this project, they adopted this projecte in order to narrate migration stories towards the U.S., wet bags, et cetera, and I think these were students, cases of family members who had gone under circumstances of migration processes towards the U.S. Gender is another important aspect, I have five minutes left. Gender is something we want to deal with and there is something important, but we don't want to omit our mistakes, this is another current perspective, we have to be able to recognize our mistakes. When I was studying the pre-Hispanic art, when I took a look at the pre-Hispanic work of art from the gender perspective and the different categories, we appreciated many mistakes and mistaken identifications that had happened for the last 30 years in the museum, for example, in the representation of chief, when in the writing you could see the female genitals, so we published a video in Instagram and then guided visits saying that the perspective that we applied from our optic has to be revisited, this gender perspective has been applied to this viranal art, this is a fantastic picture representing the daughter of a virre in the new Spain, in Mexico, but by Israel, and representing someone forgotten by history, it's difficult they appear together, it's an indigenous woman full of tattoos and she has a contraplasia and we organized an exhibition about this, so we are revisiting the collections from different perspectives in order to offer new narrations, new discourses, which are related to what I meant. I have four minutes left to speak about another aspect, gathering us here, which is plunder and restitution. When we speak about pre-Hispanic art, countries are asking and claiming the evolution of works of art which are part of these plundering processes and this is something that has to be punctualized, auctions, for example, encourage this plunder in illicit traffic documented by several countries. But when there is a plunder in Spain, I speak from the perspective of the Museum of America because we have been hosting plunder works of art, the evolution happens. I know a couple of cases since I've been in the museum, three, one, several countries, 691 works of art returned to Colombia in 2014, 2015. This evolution process, which is related to a commission organized by the embassy because Spain cannot say, I'm sending you the pieces of art. The country has to require them and therefore we have a specific commission, Spain and the Ministry of Culture got in touch with the embassies in order to request the restitution of these works of art. The process ended up very well when the works of art are plundered because we are talking about plundering, illicit sites and irregular extraction of these works of art. So it's easy to understand. A prehispanic work of art should have a presence in Spain, a legal one. What happens when we speak about objects that have been moved in the 18th, 19th century, we enter into un charter territory and one of the claims, I guess you are all thinking about this, it's the Kimbaya treasure and Colombia. So we've been speaking about the Institute of Anthropology, the Colombian Institute of Anthropology and we organized three different phases of collaboration workshop, forum, made by experts in museums and patrimonia seminar with four conferences for different contexts, historical, archeological, archeometric, legal. We decided to approach it from a legal perspective to see what was the context in which to play this patrimony. And finally we also have a third phase which is a virtual exhibition, we are working on it. Conclusions that we reach with each one of these situations is that the study has to be individualized. We shouldn't generalize. Not all Colombian patrimony has been plundered. Part of it is in Spain from recent times but we have to speak about different questions. Are we talking about legal restitution or moral restitution because these are two different things, legal restitution in the case of the Kimbaya treasury. You have to take a look at the legal situation of the 19th century. What is the difference? We are talking about plundering, clear nowadays but not so clear in the 18th and 19th century and also identities, wishes, construction, imaginary, etc. Therefore there is also a temporal limit for this type of revisions and this is a question we could ask ourselves how long can we go in order to place a limit to these revisions or can we maybe go back to the past? Any date? That's a question. On the other hand, who should be restituted? Who is the owner of the works of art? Are we speaking about countries newly created and we are speaking about nations within countries, communities, people, direct descendants? Who are we speaking about in every case? Something else that has to be taken into account. In the case of state museums it's not something that I can decide nowadays as the director of the Museum of America because we are talking about the Ministry of Culture. Decisions made related to specific heritage can have consequences on other museums with similar patrimonies so they have to be agreed decisions and this is the final screen. There are some risks which are obvious and nowadays everything we are going through is very much related to the confusion generated around these subjects. First aspects related to decolonisation all the processes that I have mentioned before not only about the others but others we have in self decolonised but also restitution. Both terms are mixed. Part of the process is restitution but decolonising means much more and the use of lies by the press, fallacies, the false hint in order to deviate attention. If from a legal perspective colonists did exist or not, that's not the debate. I'm talking about America independently of vice kingdoms. Some of them cannot have any other name. I'm talking about the diversity of casualty. If colonists did not exist because this is what's been denied there is no decolonisation possible because we are speaking about different processes questioning authority and museums. We also have a voice and we have to remain silent. Equivalence, decolonising and restitution a series of fallacies that have been read and that are not on purpose but behind this there is a lack of data a lack of information and half truth and at least we should be aware of this. Great, thank you very much. Please, please. Gràcies. Bé, d'entrada. Bé, first of all we would like to thank both Bart and Andrés for being so concise and for not overextending the time you had. But we know you have to live at six so what we will do now is open and turn a round of questions about your presentations and after that we will listen to make a conference, a monographical conference that was originally designed for the closing of these international seminars. If anybody amongst our audience would like to place a question for either of both speakers please let's do this now and after that we will be able to listen to the conference presented by Clement Ameka. Well, two excellent presentations are very interesting but I see that both gentlemen who are presenting or using as excuse the fact that if we do have museums it is for dissemination of knowledge purposes that was my understanding of what has been said and I also see that what is really valued is not owning all these pieces all these works of art because they are original and because they are unique. Wouldn't we be able to do the same using copies? Couldn't we return the original pieces and keep copies in our museums? I can imagine this might be very costly but perhaps when we return all these pieces to their original countries we could pay for copies to be made because having an original Picasso or having a copy really it's not so relevant. So my question is along these lines why do we consider it so relevant that the piece is original or not? Compartim Each of these museums in the case of the MUSEUM MUSEU cities La Mexica you have a lot of archaeological pieces in the African museum we do have many objects which comes from communities which continue to exist they are alive So in some cases i també són elements funcional que formen part de les seves xarxes i les veïnes, però en moltes cases, les xarxes que tenen al Museu d'America han de ser societats que no longer existen. Per al·lusió, Marta, crec que voldria respondre a la qüestió. Sí, moltes gràcies. Jo diria que tenim 80.000 objectes culturales d'un congo. Congo, només en el Museu Nacional de la Generalitat de Kichasa, té 35.000 peces. I no parlo d'una transmissió que no és ideal. No sé si això pot ser. El objecte no és necessari. És una oportunitat de berenar les condicions per donar els objectes. Crec que és essencial que li demanem les necessitats dels interlocutors a l'Africa. I insisten en l'acció. Què és la demanda de les persones per anar en contacte amb la cultura de les parents, les grans parents, que volen entendre allò que és sobre. Per cert, això significa que retornes un nombre de peces. Però no crec que hi ha una demanda que retorni tot. Hi ha una oportunitat per a l'Africa per tenir un museu de l'Africa a Europa. Estem a Brussel·les, que ens considerem capaç de Europa, per tenir això en un escenari per la ricscòstia, per la rècorda i per la història, i també per la passada. Crec que aquesta qüestió de retornar tots els objectes és el que som sometimes here from the diaspora here in Brussel·les, here in Belgium. It is not what I hear from when I go to Hong Kong. That there is a different demand, which is about reconnecting with the culture. And culture is not about objects. Culture is about what is behind the objects. It's about spirituality. It's about the way of connecting as social beings at the time. So I don't think the question of restitution should be defined in that way. But certainly whether it is on loan or returning in full ownership pieces is something which is happening right now. But it is not the only answer to the many questions which are asked to us in Africa and in other continents. Thank you. Yo quería comentar sobre en relación con la pregunta que nos ha hecho, que es muy interesante, porque está planteando un... ...with regards to the question that you are asking. Well, you are talking about museums and about a change that's taking place in museums during the last decades. A museum of artistic representations that were replicas of things that you could see in different countries. That was extensively done in the 19th century. It became very fashionable. And at a given point in time, with this concept of reconverting art heritage in something more conventional, lost value. Now replicas are used in many museums. Sculptures made out of clay or out of yeast. It's not uncommon. Now, the question is what's the value of the concept of originality? We're projecting our own concepts on others. In Asia, for example, it is very frequent that the renovation of a temple involves the absolute renewal and change of all the materials, all the wooden elements, all the painting, etc. But for Asians, the new temple is the same temple because it's not the materials that matter. It's the spiritual value. So I think it is very interesting that you have brought up the question of the original piece, which is connected to the concept of art, but also to our values. And I think it is worth discussing. There is a higher... ...calización of heritage, which is almost accidental. In art museums, they seem to have a different consideration, a higher consideration than ethnographic museums, for example, not just when they deal about ethnographic elements of third countries. Also, when they deal with their own culture, they are considered lesser museums, because what they exhibit is considered of less value, because showing, for example, objects that come from rural areas in your country is considered less valuable than showing works of art. So here what we're doing is a projection, really, of these values. And it's probably a very European creation, this concept, because the very concept of the museum, the concept of a place where you preserve objects, this is something to be questioned. Is this a pattern, a way of understanding culture, that probably would have a very different meaning in other countries? I'm just saying this so that we consider the possibility of questioning the very concept of museum. Now, this opens quite a debate, of course. Any more questions? Well, it's a short question. You've mentioned that museums in other countries may appreciate their culture being present in a museum in Europe. To what extent are they interested in having their objects exhibited in European countries? Do they agree with the way in which these objects are exhibited? Since you work with both sides, and this is so relevant, how do you do this, how can you come to an understanding about what to do with these objects that may belong to communities that, on occasions, no longer exist? Well, I imagine your question is for Mr. Uvri, because you have mentioned the reconnection of communities with the objects, and when I say communities, I'm referring to the migrant diaspora. Their connection with the objects that you have in your collection, then I think that you could also respond to the question in terms of how do you justify, how do you link this to these demands that you receive in your own museum? No, no. I believe there is certainly a category of objects and certainly images on which we are very conservative. Right now, actually, we had a small project with an artist and he used some of the images in our photo collection. And he shows young girls, which are naked. He shown African citizens in chains. Frankly, we have struggled with this art project because he also shows some of the comments which were added during the colonial times. Some of those comments are expressly racist. Today they are completely unacceptable. We consider those images as insulting, as racist, as a way of continuing the stereotyping, the stereotyped way in which we presented Africa during the colonial time. It is interesting because actually in pre-colonial times, the way in which in our art and our history, which often Africa was presented, was less stereotyped. This is really something linked to the colonial era. And there I connect with Andreas, the other speaker, where he says decolonizing our thinking. So we have to decolonize our thinking. It is true that for some objects these are spiritual objects and they were not meant to be exhibited. Very often they were only shown at night. They were only shown to certain people, those who were, for example, a member of fraternity. And so it is true that in showing them in our museums, we are not respecting the rules, the rules of the societies where they come from. And this can sometimes be something of, can be the cause for discussion. I think our only answer can be to, you know, we're willing to go into a dialogue. I must say I receive regularly Cameroonies, Kings recently I receive Chef Coutibier, traditional chiefs from Congo. Usually they are proud to see those objects. But this is not necessarily thinking of all. And I believe that there we need, it's one of the words which I try to use often, we need some humility. Decolonizing means that we have to, you know, put aside some of our European ways of looking at our collections and at the culture of the other. And that we listen and that we have a dialogue. There is no one answer to that. And maybe for some, it's for example human remains, whatever, there is a few places in our museum where you can see a grave, for example, of a traditional chief. But I can tell you that the human remains which you see are fake. They have been printed, they have been painted. You can't see it, but it's clearly indicated. Our policy is never to expose any human remains in our museum. So there we have taken also a clear decision. For cultural objects there is not one single answer. Thank you. Thank you, this is a question for Andrés. You have said something very interesting around the otherification during the decolonization process. You have mentioned the danger of becoming distant from those that we pretend to decolonize and they become the others. So the question is who has to be decolonized because the restitution is part of this larger idea or process of decolonization, but processes are taking place here in the European society within their museums, which are the ones which are burdened with all this history. So in your discourse you continue to deny to a certain extent the responsibility buying whatever the origin of this space. So who is the subject of this decolonization? Because museums are reproducing all these discourses on subject societies and moments creating temporary fictions about these societies and they are perpetuating things through their discourses and I'm talking about history and ethnology museums now. I have also followed the conferences organized by the museum during this process and my question is, for this Spanish identity and also outside Catalonia and I'd like to clarify this, why is America so, because America is so connected to Spain and the Spanish culture, in the relationship with the American citizens who live here, what should be the value of all these pieces, all these works of art contained in Spanish museums? What do these things mean for you? And we talk about moral restitution or physical restitution, what should we do about it? Well, that's a lot of questions. Okay, who has to decolonize? I think that clearly the first phase is self decolonization. Our colleague was also talking about this. We first need to change the way that we think. We have to do this ourselves and in parallel we need to be able to listen to what other voices say, the voices of the true main characters here, the true owners of this heritage. And there were so many questions. The second question, we're talking about the Kimbaya collection which has been requested by Colombia. What does it mean for Spain? Well, in the first place it's a gift, as part of a diplomatic event. So it's part of the history of Spain. It also has a strong symbolic value because this was a gift and this was a heritage which was selected to be rescued in Spain during the Civil War and to be protected. So there is a reconstruction about the whole history and then the knowledge that people have about the Kimbaya collection. However, if you ask people in Spain where is the Kimbaya collection, most people will tell you that they don't know. The same would happen if you ask people in Colombia. So that's a little bit our fault too in terms of our inability to communicate. Now this detracts nothing from the construction of a symbolic identity. I don't know whether you were able to follow the conference by Roberto Yedas. This is a fictitious contemporary construction based on a physical objecte and it creates pain because it is no longer in the Colombian territory from where it was extracted. So this deposit on which identity is built based on objects that don't belong to the country hurts and creates hurt. Now, this is a project that is born in Colombia and they have made this request and we need to answer to this request as we would to any other. Our relations are very good. We continue to work with the Colombian Institute of Anthropology and it doesn't depend on the Museum of America whether there will be a final restitution or not. In my opinion and your last question about whether we have to talk about a legal or a moral restitution. Based on everything I have researched and this is my very humble perspective because I know there are lots of experts that have been working in Colombia trying to find legal grounds. In my opinion, there is no legal case. It is a great confusion. This was a gift. I don't know whether you know the history. I will summarize the govern of the Republic of Colombia in 1968 brought this collection to the American exhibit that was being held in Madrid with the express intention while this collection was being sold in the international market and the Colombian government buys it to give it to Queen Maria Cristina as a gift. So that is an object that is bought to be presented as a gift. Now legal issues, well, there has to be... Work has to be done here. Now moral issues, I understand that. This is a theological heritage but there is also a lot of objects from Kimbaya in the British Museum and in Vienna and in Berlin and in many other museums so we would need to analyze why if this was a gift from the Colombian government then the restitution is not based on any act of plundering because the pieces have been acquired later and I do understand it is more of a moral issue and this is a different type of restitution and this is precisely the kind of things that we need to talk about. This is what we're here to debate. Is there an actual legal case documented, supported from a legal perspective or are we talking about other perspectives? I don't know whether I've been able to thank you. Hopefully I have. Do we have any more questions? Then I simply wanted to add what I do have a question. I don't know whether to ask it here or to ask Barth directly. Now when we talk about restitution which often are made by states we have been created recently to build a national identity. What happens with all these pieces which are part of other cultures which in these new countries are marginalized or are not given any visibility? I will give you a very practical case. The case of the Spanish protectorate. Many of our pieces from Morocco come from the Amazic culture which is a minority culture non-recognized culture in Morocco. So one of the great opportunities that the Amazic culture has is the fact that we can exhibit from here all of their potential and all the specificities of their culture and their strong personalities. So my question would be do you have cases which could be parallel to this case I have mentioned with the Amazic culture in the case of the Museum of Africa I can imagine that you will have pieces from a diversity of cultures that can be found in the Democratic Republic of Congo. So do you find yourself in a situation where these cultures also want to be visible and appreciate the fact that this has been preserved in a museum where it can be seen? Barth, I don't know whether you would like to say anything about this. I believe that the one who really answered to this is Andreas when he mentioned the number of conditions for us to act in a legitimate way we do not have a monopoly of knowledge. If we as museums, if we succeed in letting the people of those communities express themselves then we may have the legitimacy to do this but for that we need an approach which is innovative which is not the approach of even a few years ago we have to admit that it's only since 20 years I believe at least here in Belgium if I look around and what you do with Africa it is not so long ago that we have started changing our focus and that we look first of all at the human being behind all those objects we have to admit that we tended to be a museum of African arts which forgot about the cultures and about the events and the whole history behind it so I believe yes we can but we should do it in another way not in the old ways so decolonization in my view and that was the previous question it is something which we have to do both of us yes we need to decolonize but in my case my African counterparts also need to decolonize it means for example that they do not limit themselves as being victims of colonization there are today sovereign nations there are sovereign peoples there are communities which live not always but which at least tend to live or want to live, aspire to live in a democratic and open society if we can factor that in I believe we can do that but only if we do it in the right way and I think that there Andreas really put a number of excellent conditions for doing that in order to be legitimate and in order to do it in the correct way bueno, si no hay más preguntas lo que haremos es... i


Here he comes in three two one All right, we're good stuck on this thing. I know I should be going for the head, but I just can't get around to it There we go. I think I got a piece of it there. Okay. I think it reset there But I gotta shout it. Oh my goodness. What bad timing is this? Did I just carve an immortal dragon scale from a tail? Gama please Video gum could you please I have a barrel. Oh my goodness. I keep hitting the wrong button This is a bit cute Did they already wake him up? I thought he would asleep here Those were good hits. I forgot to charge that now. Nice GGs GGs That's what I like to see. I need more regrowth. Give me another one.  Yeah They're gonna be scale shot. All right, I got two plates. That's good Oh, they gave me a tail. That's good an elder dragon blood Hey, Torque, how you doing man? I just started hunting. I spent the beginning of the stream getting some Some some cat stuff. I got the the sword that allows you to steal parts And I'm about to go another hunt session IDs in the title. You want to join me? Nobody went with me on that one. That was all randoms. I just did a SOS there. What should we craft Nick? We got two more plates See I guess I could do the chest Yeah, chest has a stamina surge. I like that one so we'll do the chest and Let's see We'll be short on carapaces again after this. I should equip it. Shouldn't I? Yeah, yeah Yes yet. No, not yet. Yes yet. No, not yet So these are all on the wish list so I need carapaces that's pretty much all I need which is a common drop and That one tail that I need for the the gloves.  So if I get three pieces, I'm probably gonna start equipping this and start upgrading it Yep, probably gonna equip three pieces and get that set bonus. All right, so I'll post the quest That's the one all about the nerker Farming oh, he's got another thing for me So Jiro's huh. Oh They make the beef look so good. I Did it ha ha SOS going up. It's what happens when you change keys, man You just forget You just hit the old keys What happened to Final Fantasy 14, I don't know some happening in the news what I miss I want the good stuff Why don't I play it anymore? How long have you been gone? Dude? Where have you been? That's been well over a year, dude. You came back from the army. Oh, okay Dude, I stopped playing it like after my sub ran out Once um once the hard mode dungeons or the hard mode What they called the super-duper hard mode stuff came out a lot of the community kind of splintered and I was playing by myself So my sub ran out and I decided not to renew at that point So when the next expansion come out, I'll probably revisit it But for now I'm taking a pretty long hiatus from it. Yeah, I had the feeling you were gone a while But I was like man. That was that was a while ago. Oh He's got a itch DG and scratchy show Oh, he messed up my slide. I gotta do it again. Oh, okay. That'll do That'll do it. Well, you ran to the other side of the screen I'm using mouse keyboard. I don't know what I just hit It would run out when I get over here. I'm not a two-flash box. What the heck? Okay, did I have to change bindings? Yes, I did Default controls are decent, but they're weird For the most part, I'm kind of default from melee For range though For range I had to change a good amount because I just couldn't do what they're asking. I'm trying to get out I was kind of trapped. So Come back. I knew it's gonna do that I was just about to do that too. Somebody beat me to it. He's got that limp But yeah, dude, uh Range I had to change bindings like a lot. I Just I couldn't do it Melee seems to be okay. Now them I Guess I'm probably when I changed to a different. This is my first melee weapon. I'm using so probably when I change to a different one I'll um, I May have an issue, you know, we'll say tiger strike. Thanks for all the host dude. Appreciate it. Wow I think if I win to take that harsh, I'll probably be dead too Amazing he almost killed all of us at once Dude these screams Drop Mountain Duke. I like how he customized his sayings man. All right, where's the tail? He's without tail. I don't know where it is though. I need about all the regrowth plates. You can give me tail Tail tail oh there it is No, where's my tail? I only got one regrowth plate from that. I'm complaining about the smallest things You know what I'm okay with that and to make the board Of course I didn't I think I can harvest now. Let me see Yeah, the tail got cut and I hurt and I Okay, we're not done yet The tail got cut it's just I went and carved it and then get a tail out of the tail What's up behind it or which I don't understand like if you carve a tail, how come you don't get a tail? Hmm. Maybe that wasn't a tail. Maybe there's something else I Could be it. What am I missing? Flash pods. I need to craft more flash pods Let's see Just there There we go. The leaves about 29. I'm about to harvest a whole bunch more. So All right, let's redo it again. This time. I should have flash pots coming over What was this? Oh, it's that powder that I don't have that much of Oh It's still a big lootless way. Oh, okay. So you're not guaranteed a tail if you chop off a tail Interesting All right, so let's do more large monsters and Let's see if I can get this other piece. I think I needed two plates If I get this other piece, I'm gonna equip it and I might have a little bit less armor because I haven't upgraded this Which means I got to take less hits Yeah, I need to wait no I Wow Only have one 98 Okay, no, I need 12 Wow, I need 12 carapaces. I didn't know that I thought I needed less than that I'm probably gonna all this regrowth plate that I was getting not the carapaces. Oh The carapaces are a little bit a little bit rarer I also need to tail to them. So I got two pieces crafted. So that's good Okay I'm gonna take a break.  I should have a few more slaves on this one I got three more So thanks for watching guys. Feel free to follow the stream If you enjoyed yourself, follow me on Twitter or Twitter comm slash one. I'll be right back


It's delicious. I am eating something so good sloppy joes. I'm using my little rocker blade to chop these. I bet your momma made sloppy joes. Whose momma did it? Even if she opened the can of sloppy joe mix, she made you some sloppy joes. But today, we're going to do it homemade. I didn't have any fresh bell pepper so I had some in the freezer and I just beat it up. We're going to pour it in here. We're going to saute this until it's nice and tender. I'm going to probably just take it out. That way it won't be squibbing in hand over the grease. While these are sauteing, I like to go ahead and add a lot of my spice. A quarter teaspoon of chili to this sloppy joe mix. I ain't much but that's all we want. Just a taste of it. I'm going to put in a whole teaspoon of pepper and a teaspoon of salt. I know we've got onion in here but I still like the powder too. One of the viewers actually told me to start using it and I just love it and everything. I'm going to put in two teaspoons of this because I love it. Sloppy joes because it was one of my favorites. I was always excited on sloppy joe night. My momma most of the time opened the can for the most part. I will say that a lot of people talk about food tasting like a can. If there's anything to me that tastes like a can, it's normally tomato sauce like sloppy joes type stuff or like shabbardies, spaghetti and meatballs. If it's been in a can too long, you can taste the can. Be real careful buying your sloppy joe. Look at the expiration date. Make sure it's fresh so that you don't get that awful taste. Today we're not going to use sloppy joe mix or make it raw. There's nothing wrong with taking shortcuts when you need to. We're going to get this out and start grilling our ground beef. I'm just taking this out so that it's not swimming. We're going to turn the eye on high pretty much or close to it. I've got five pounds of ground beef and sure I'm not going to use five pounds. I'm only going to use about a pound and a half of ground beef for this recipe. A little bit of fresh garlic in here when we ground this beef. If you have garlic powder, use it if you don't have any fresh garlic. And just use about a half teaspoon, I guess, to a teaspoon. Just how much you like. My husband does not like garlic salt. If you use garlic salt, make sure that you don't over salt it. You might want to reduce the salt somewhere else. We're going to want to separate the meat pretty good. If you don't have a hamburger separator, I've got one. I just don't have it out right now. Just make sure you smash it down into the skillet and separate it good. After you ground your beef, my beef was actually chucked. There was hardly anything down on the bottom so I'm not going to drain it because there's not enough down in there to full width to me. So what we're going to do is add our onion and pepper and spices to the beef. Now I'm going to add a can, a small eight ounce can of tomato sauce. Now while you still have your can, we're going to fill it up with a ketchup. So just fill out your eight ounce can with ketchup and put it in your sauce. This ketchup does have a little Worcestershire in it already, vinegar, and it has sugar in it. So remember that we're going to taste it before we add sugar. Now I'm going to add a little extra Worcestershire. Don't overdo it. Some people put a little steak sauce in theirs instead of doing it that way. You can do that if you've got a little A1 or whatever you can throw that in there too. Now one thing I'm going to do today and you can choose to do two different things. You can add a little sugar and a little vinegar or you can put some sweet pickles in here. I'm going to put in sweet pickles because I like them. They taste good. I'm going to put in a good quarter cup. Taste this before I add any brown sugar but we may go ahead and add a little brown sugar as well. It looks good already. Now you're going to want this to simmer a good 20 minutes or so. Just put it on a real low heat and let those flavors get in all that meat. And you never serve a sloppy joe without putting it in the bun, tying up the bag, and letting the buns get real soft. And I'm going to turn it down on low. It's delicious. Take the sloppy joes and put them in the bun and then put the bun in a bag. Now if you don't want to make all eight sloppy joes, then you can use a gallon size bag if you've got one.  But I'm going to show you how I like to do it. This is my quarter cup scooper. And it works perfect just for a regular hamburger size. And then I like to make at least four or so and get them in the bag. And if you've got a big family, just go ahead and bag them all up and let them sit there for about 10 minutes before everybody comes to eat. And they're going to just be even better. Just fold that bag up underneath there. We'll be back in a minute. What's so fun about eating sloppy joes? You get to have chips. Mama gets an easy night and everybody gets to be sloppy at the table. Cheese puffs yummy. See my yummy sloppy joe? Now you don't want to make it so wet that the bottom of your bun is soggy. So don't add water to it. Just let it simmer and it'll be just right. Yummy. Thanks mama. Thanks for watching Colored Valley Cooks where we cook like mama did.


Welcome, it's Docs Office Hours, 22 July, Asia time. Thanks for being here. Topics I've got on the list, action items, news, upcoming changelog, look and feel, improvements, Google Summer of Code update, and then long-standing poll requests. And I've actually made some more progress on one of those. This one, I'll drop out. Any other topics that you wanna put on the list? And Kristen, I think what we ought to do is let's put this one up higher just to be sure that we get to it in case we, so we don't run out of time. Sure. And that one can move down because it's just machinery. All right, so if no other topics, how about let's go through the agenda? So bad news, the action items, I've still made no progress. They're gonna be, and it'll be several weeks at least before I make progress on those news items. I may, in fact, I think I do need to cancel next week's meeting because I'll be in Southern California attending a conference. Any objections there? We'll miss you, but have fun. All right, okay, so Mark to cancel in the calendar. Great, all right, so Google Summer of Code update. So Kristen, why don't you give a brief summary of Vihon's amazing work so far and- Sure. So this is the, we have reached the midpoint of Google Summer of Code. We're halfway through the summer already. I can't, sometimes I can't believe we're already here, but earlier or yesterday or depending earlier today, depending where you are in the world, there was a online meetup where all the different students who work on projects kind of give a midpoint presentation about their stuff. And if you're interested in watching Vihon's is near the end, actually, I think this is the last presentation. So you can skip forward through a lot of the video and take a look at the amazing work he's done. A lot of like summary, a lot of it has been improving some of the docs website stuff in general, doing some massive upgrades to the generator. Oh yeah, so they wanna upgrades to the generator, the website improvements, I'll go back. Like there's the scroll bar situation. Yeah, search is the huge improvement. Static scroll bar, yeah. That was, it's sometimes, it's like, yes, that was a huge improvement early in the summer. And then the search option. And to people watching this video, if there's any other places that you can think of or please provide feedback and we are actively reviewing it right now. So any feedback would be welcome on some of these pages as well. Thank you, yeah.  No, no. And the next phase is going to be improving some of the incredibly large pieces of documentation that we have. For example, the step, step. The checkout step, where there's just a lot of information going on. So Vien did a great job like running to the, getting the stuff out for the end of coding phase one. So he's going to regroup and come up with some preliminary designs that will probably sheared in future docs office hours and on the docs channel. So if you are interested, please take a look. And attend the Europe office hours because that's where Vihon tends to share latest progress at least that I've seen. Yes. And no Europe office hours next week. Kristen, is that going to harm Vihon? Probably not. Cause we're coming up with the design, I think is happening over the next week. So depending on where he is, and worst case scenario will be in the, we'll share some pictures in the channel. Okay, great. Yeah, continue. And we do use, say for video purposes, we use the docs channel in Gitter for all of this discussion. So if you have comments or suggestions, please share there and also keep an eye out for some potential wireframes of what it could look like in a new layout. Thank you. Thanks very much. Thank you. Oh, go ahead. I feel like this has been so successful too. Like I'm so happy that Docsig has been here cheering us on, cheering him on for completing a good project. So power of community. Well, thanks very much to him and to your work. That's really impressive. All right. So one different topic, we've got a pull request out for look and feel improvements to the Jenkins page, to the whole site. And so let's take a look at it just to give hints as to what's being proposed. It looks, for me, it looks really good. There are a couple of weaknesses that I found just today in exploring. So here's the proposed new layout. And let's compare it to the existing layout. So here's the old, here's the new. Okay. So you got your jumbotron or whatever back visible. Right. So the jumbotron is above the fold, at least on my screen, like it was before. Now there is the hiccup I found was this one, if I shrink to a particular size, like four by three, 10, 24, there's an overlap thing here that doesn't happen here with the image, though it does happen with the bar. So if I go there, image is still pushing it. So somehow the image is not resizing downwards, even though it's SVG. And so that's when I need to ask him about to see what, or ask the author about to see, can that SVG image be adjusted still? But really pleased, recent adjustments included, use this sort of darker, this different blue in the download button page. That's nice. Last week we had colors I didn't like. Right, exactly. And so, those are good. Now the, yeah. And I'm never quite sure which sizes of screen matter to people. I know the sizes that matter to me, they're the screens that I use, but. Right. And I don't understand people who try to read this sort of stuff on a phone. They're out there. Yes, yes. And I don't have an answer for that one. So that absolutely. Me either. I don't either. Okay. So as it turns out, I don't have to coordinate with Gavin. Gavin has adopted plugins.jankins.io already to the new layout. So as soon as we are ready to merge it, ready to merge anytime. Yeah. And again, this is just a contributor who sort of came out of nowhere and said, I'd like to help. And has been through several iterations to get it to this point. For me, it feels like it's a good compromise, a good set of layout. And it lays out well in the rest of the site. So it's not breaking other things. Any comments or guidance there that you want to give? No, good stuff. Okay. Next topic then was this one, change, log and upgrade guide. And here the challenge is we won't meet next week, but we need to review. We, it would be good to have a draft. So what I'll do is mark and Kevin to create the draft. Actually, let's say it this way. Kevin and Mark create the draft next week. And then we'll review, review asynchronously. Look at the pull request once it's submitted. Not expected to be an awful lot of heavyweight content in it. I've not seen any major changes that are needed for the LTS candidate. So I'm, I'm expecting to be quite small. Cool. And then I did want to show, I've made one, a few more steps on modernizing a plugin. We're going to do a session at DevOps world. A two-hour session at DevOps world on adopting a plugin. And we've got three of us working together on it. So Mark, John Mark and Bruno Verashton. And what we'll be doing is we're going to temporarily adopt about 30 plugins, modernize them and then sort of hide the modernizations. And then we'll have the students in a workshop, modernize them with the idea that they can then look at the, look in the back of the book for the answers when they hit a problem. And then are you going to merge the students work? Exactly. Yeah, the goal is that each of the, each of the students in the workshop, each participant in the workshop leaves the workshop having merged at least one pull request. Okay. What just happened? Bad fingers, hang on just a minute. Each student merge at least one pull request in the two hours of the workshop. Now we've also got a, an ongoing effort to use Gitpod to create and delete development environments. So what this does is it gives us automation, automatic creation of good development environments. In other words, with correct Java, correct Maven, et cetera. And it lets them, let's them run Jenkins without ever putting it on their own computer. Yeah. Good stuff. Yeah. Good stuff. Is this, will everybody be in, in location or will some of these people be remote? On location. So on location workshops in Orlando, Florida. Now what we're going to do is we'll use, and this is the thing that's crucial for, for us as a docs office hours is we will use the, the tutorial pages. So they have to be published by then. Any other, any questions there on that one? Kristen, I don't know. Are you planning on being a DevOps world? I was, I was assuming not. No, no, I'm not going to be there. I've never, ever been to a DevOps world. Oh, you have not. Oh, I've never been, I've never been to one. Okay. I hope y'all have fun. Is this August or September that you're going to Orlando? And end of September. Okay. Oh dear. And Meg, are you, are you likely to be a DevOps world? No, no. Okay. All right. Any other topics? Do we want to look at some poll requests and see if we can close out any, any other old ones? Got a few minutes. If we got anything we can close. I'd say let's do it. Yeah. Okay. So here's what we've got. Okay. This one just came in from Daniel Beck. It's had several reviews. Devin Nussbaum. Okay. I'm not sure I'm ready to merge it yet because I think that I assume that Daniel put Vodek in specifically and intentionally. So I propose to hold that one. Oh, oh, here's a fun one. Fun one for the two of you. Okay. And this is testing. So Gavin Mogan who provides many answers to questions on community.jenkins.io and on the Gitter channel has been rather annoyed lately because a bunch of people have asked questions that made him it clear to him that they thought Blue Ocean was being actively developed, that it was getting new enhancements, et cetera. And he said, hey, let's get a statement in the documentation that admits very clearly that we're not actively enhancing Blue Ocean. Okay. So here's what Kevin- We're also not actively driving a stake through its heart either, right? Correct, right. I've heard that too. Sure, right. And that's sort of the phrasing that I felt like sometimes Gavin was using was he was trying to drive a stake through its heart and he's not, he clarified, he's not. So- Oh, I didn't know they knew that was the subtle that he was trying to do. Discourage, aggressively discourage. Well, in this case, it's not because we don't want to shut down the tutorial pages. They still work. And as part of this development work, Kevin actually went through and did the tutorials. And he confirmed, yes, in fact, they do still work. Oh, good. So it's not a matter of we're telling someone to do something that's broken. Okay, good, good, yeah. But what Kevin's created is this reference, this insertable snippet that we'll put into multiple pages. So Blue Ocean will not receive further functionality updates. Blue Ocean will continue to provide easy to use pipeline visualization, but will not be enhanced further. It will only receive selective updates for significant service security issues or functional defects. Okay, so that's, this is basically a quote from the document that Jeremy Hartley created in 2019. Okay. And then this one, alternative options for pipeline visualization, such as pipeline stage view and pipeline graph view plugins are available and offer some of the same functionality. While not complete replacements for Blue Ocean, contributions are encouraged from the community for continued development of these plugins. Okay, so the two of you, as you hear that, you've heard my reading of it. What do you think? Is that okay? Uh-huh. Unsaid but implied is we're not really looking for even the community to enhance Blue Ocean. No, no, in fact, we're not. And that's, yeah, I didn't, it doesn't say explicitly, please don't bother submitting pull requests. It's there, it's, yeah. Yeah, it's, I think it's good. I think somebody cares. Yes, well my reading, I still, I love doing the tutorial with Blue Ocean. For somebody who's coming brand new to a pipeline, I think it gets them up to speed and conceptually very fast. I can't imagine trying to do any real work with that thing. Well, and that's why pipeline visualization is the emphasized use case. Right. Because that's where it matters, at least to me. I use it all the time to see where the pipeline broke. And then I click the thing to see if I can find in the log there. And when I can't, I know that I need to go searching in the big log. Right. It feels a lot like how I do it. They start with, okay, where's the little red X? Which stage? All right. Right. Yeah. Exactly, which stage broke? Yep. Okay, now, is there a good hint in that, in the easy visualization? If not, okay, go look for it in the big full console. And did he find it going through the tutorial or whatever that, because I, you know, at one time it was all Blue Ocean all the way. But fairly early now, at least when I last saw the tutorial fairly early in it, it says, okay, now here's how you work with pipelines outside Blue Ocean. And from here on, you can do it either way. And that I don't know. So I think that depends on the tutorial, right? Because some of the tutorials are completely free of Blue Ocean. They use no Blue Ocean at all, or they barely use any. So for example, the Maven tutorial is, let's go there just for a minute. So the Maven, the Pipe, the Node and the Python tutorials, all three of these tutorials make very little use of Blue Ocean because they really don't need it. Right. No, I'm talking about the original one, just the pipeline introduction. It may not even still be live, may not even be live anymore. Maybe it's this one getting started. See if that. See, this one just shows you a copy and paste these pipelines steps in. It doesn't even show you Blue Ocean. It just says, hey, look, this is how you do it and copy and paste. And for a tutorial, that's actually a fine thing, right? There's no harm in doing it. It's intentional. You can just copy and paste this thing. Right. Now I'm talking about the one actually that's on CloudBees University. Oh, that one. So that one, I don't know. And Kevin doesn't work on those. So he hasn't touched that one. They may not be still be there. I don't know. Yeah. I can't go in and look anonymously. And I kind of don't want to go in there under my own name. So. And I think that's fair enough. Now he did visit, for instance, it was, I think it was this one. Let's see. This, no, no, that's just a blog post. There was one. Maybe it's this one. End-to-inch multi-branch, which, if I remember right, does go through. Now I've got to look and see. Nope, nope. Even this one is not. This one is guiding you in doing something very, very, very simple. You're not designing the pipeline with the Blue Ocean Editor. So it's not using the Editor. I thought we did have one that did the Editor. But obviously I'm not. Oh yeah, here it is. It's this one getting started with it. And here, this one actually takes you through the Editor and using Editor Steps to, let's find it. So here we go. This one right here. You remember this page, right, Meg? And this is walking them through, hey, do this, do this. And these exact steps. But he confirmed this works and even updated this little page right here from an ancient version of Node.js to the long-term support version. So one of the things that I wanted your feedback on, though, is, and I'm going to show you the prototype site to get that feedback, is where do we put these in each page? So hold on just a minute while we look at that together. And let's view the deployment here. Is this it? No, that's the current one. So view deployment. And now if we go to Documentation in the User Guide, Blue Ocean, and let's look at, say, Activity View. OK, so it's in this page and yet it's not above the fold. So here is the thing about, here's the warning. OK. And from my taste, that's too low. I wanted it above the picture. But I'm looking for your guide. What's your opinion for the two of you? I almost put it right at the very top. You've got a big section called Blue Ocean. Why not put it at the very top there? You mean like here? Yeah, like at the very beginning, it's what Blue Ocean is. Well, so certainly, so the proposal is to actually put it on multiple pages. Right. The idea is to put it on every page that references Blue Ocean. Yes, yes. But my question is inside those pages, where do we put it conceptually? The top. Yeah, OK, so Kristen, I think I'm hearing you say what I wanted to hear, and that's good. Because I'm thinking if someone is hitting this, I'm imagining, OK, what if someone Googled, I want to hit them and I want them to see, oh, before they get too excited about this to say. Right. It's getting started, but maybe not something.  Is there even a link to instructions for setting it up outside of Blue Ocean? In this case, there is not. But so what I was something called creating a pie. Oh, that's oh, you're creating a pipeline within Blue Ocean. Yes. Yes, right. So this is very specific to Blue Ocean. But my thought was after this second paragraph, I would like to insert this big warning thing here, right? Why not at the very beginning where it tells you what Blue Ocean is? And I OK. And this is I wasn't sure stylistically. I before giving the opening paragraph felt too soon to me just because I wanted to at least get the opening paragraph in the open for Blue Ocean.  Click Blue Ocean again. Click Blue Ocean here. Yes. There it says, what is Blue Ocean? Now, let's go just a tiny bit down. OK. Now, I would put it like right after that bullet list. Oh, yes, I agree. On this page right here, on this page right here, I think it goes above this section that I'm highlighting. That'll work, yeah. That at least would make sense to me. Or it could be below this, but it should be in this first section before the second header. Right. All I can think about is I want to see this without having to scroll. Right. Yes, exactly. It's like I would like to as high up as possible personally, because I just want to extra highlight how much we do not want people to start getting invested. And I think you can use it again. It's like you can use it, but please do not start falling in love with this. Well, I think I don't see why they can't fall in love with it. They just have to know it's not going to change. Right. And that's the story that the text is trying to say, right? Is use it. Use it to visualize pipelines. But realize we're not going to add more to it. It's functionally complete. If somebody was really new to this and really be fuddled and needed to set up their first pipeline, I might tell them to go to Blue Ocean and set up just their stages. Just get the basics there. It's a world of hurt.  So because that's the one thing I see, too, though, is that's like two pairs. Like if I look at this screen, that's going to consume a third of what's on the screen without scrolling. Exactly. I don't know if I want that on every page through this as a third of every page is the same wording. Well, but then you have the problem that people don't read and see quite a sequence. So if it's not on every page, they don't see it. See, and that was my worry is that if we don't put it on every single page, well, as an example, there are some pages where it just makes sense to put it in this one right here, for instance. I don't that's an awful screenshot. It clearly needs a repair. Oh, no, this is this is. Oh, sorry. This is this is Leo marking it up. I see my mistake, but we notice that we've got this nice blank space here right below this text. Right. So it may actually not move this image at all on this particular page because could you put part of it on every page? Sure. What part would you what would you I'm thinking that just the top part that it won't be getting more that it works? Where is the you don't want to you don't want to confuse people by throwing in the alternative options, but there might be trying at the first time. Well, I want that if they're going to do much with pipeline, they're going to have to look at more than one page, right? Correct. You know. So I don't know just to me, but that it will not receive further functionality updates, continue to these years. Like if at the beginning of Blue Ocean, you had the whole thing and then just have like what's those three lines, which will probably be two lines of text. The alternative options. I don't know that that needs to be on ever, but that's just me. Well, and the the reason the reason this one was added was specifically at Gavin's request. He said, hey, we want to my my argument initially was, hey, I don't want to talk about alternatives because I don't think either of these is actually a terribly good alternative for visualization. Right. Then that's this is not I mean, this is more of an existential Jenkins question. That's not a good sign. If we have a UI that's supposed to be about pipeline visualization, we decide not to continue working on it and then don't have a good alternative that will potentially receive updates, security patches, et cetera. Yes, clearly we can't solve that here. But well, that's a good and you and you're right. That's not healthy. And that's that's a not healthy condition that that is getting some attention elsewhere. So that I'm I'm less concerned about that long term. OK, OK, good. Because because I think you're right, we've got to have pipeline visualization. And today we've got Blue Ocean and today it works and it visualizes pipelines. This graph view thing is actually pretty close to a Blue Ocean replacement for the visualization piece. It just doesn't render every pipeline as accurately as Blue Ocean does. There are some places it just makes mistakes. And the challenge for it is the the maintainer of it is not actively working on it because he's working on other things. Yeah, OK. And but you know what else is missing here is that because you've you've moved on, you're already just assuming it's just for visualization. Right, we've got a whole lot of stuff and people using it, I think, for creating a pipeline. And we're not pointing them to the option, the alternatives for that either. Oh, oh, I see your point. There is alternative options for pipeline creation. Might be another way of phrasing it. Interesting. Yeah, so maybe maybe that further argues for your your idea that first first three sentences everywhere. These two on pages that are related to visualization and maybe additional some additional texts on pages that are related to pipeline creation like this create a pipeline in Blue Ocean page. Yeah. Interesting idea. OK, well, let me let me discuss that with Kevin to see see what what he thinks. Because I think I like that idea. Let me make a note of that in the notes. And then that's my only concern, you know, is I've I've been on site where I'm trying to read something and every third sentence is some boilerplate thing repeated about the 10th time I'm like enough. Right. But but it is tough because I think they should read one of these sections from beginning to end. And then we just get at the beginning and no, but they people don't do that. So right. OK, so so let me let me try to capture that. So three different types of admonitions. Right. So there is the full full disclaimer on the opening. Definitely goes at the very beginning of the Blue Ocean section on the opening section. Right. And that disclaims that notes that it's no new no enhancements, visualization alternatives, pipeline creation alternatives. And this actually may be a good way to align with one of the desires that Gavin had, which was refer to the snippet generator, right, pipeline snippet generator, because because we we don't refer to it enough. Truthfully, people still are not getting it. That is the first place you should go to do pipeline syntax. Right. But but OK, that's full disclaimer there. And then visualization pages or no, a visualization disclaimer on sections focused on visualization. Right. And there it would be no enhancements, visualization alternatives. Is that is that the message that you were trying to get through to me, Meg? Right. And then pipeline creation disclaimer. Or it doesn't even need to be a disclaimer. Just make sure that every time we tell them how to create pipeline with Blue Ocean, we have a link to here's how you created outside of the ocean. Yeah. So maybe maybe I put it as I'm just going to put it as admonition. Yeah. Because it's it's it's not really a disclaimer in that sense. The word disclaimer is or isn't and that is is wrong. Do you know what else is not here? What's that? The obvious thing. I can create a pipeline with Blue Ocean and then work on it with non Blue Ocean tools. I can create. I can use traditional tools to create my pipeline and still do the visualization with Blue Ocean. In other words, the same pipe that you can, you know, if you say, but Blue Ocean's going away. And that's what I've used for all my pipelines. It doesn't matter unless you're not using the tool. But the pipeline itself is the same. But but that I think is actually already stated in in a number of places in the documents. It may be saying that you you can edit this with a text editor. Right. OK. Yeah. OK. But so so if if we had these three admin styles of admonitions make to your point that avoids redundancy, they're not seeing exactly the same text every time. Right. It it shrinks the text in in those places where it's not pipeline creation focused or it's not visualization focused. Yeah. Let me let me talk that over with Kevin. I think it's a good idea. Yeah. It's just a matter of probably when you're done. Yeah, you've got Kevin. He needs to just some evening sit down with a good, you know, with a bucket of popcorn and just read through it all and see if what he's left with is good. Right. Yep. OK. Thank you. Anything else on the Blue Ocean admonition? No, but nice, nice work. So Meg, I think we're probably at your time. Are we so pretty much I should get going. Well, we could have you got one more quick one. Well, let's look and see. So let's do a quick check. Because I want you both to notice we're down to 26 open pull requests. Oh, yeah. OK, well, actually, here we go. Here's one inclusive naming screen shot update on the inbound agent. I had requested a change on this one. OK, no, this one needs comments from from others or Oleg. OK. Yeah. So this one not ready. I think I could act as Oleg's proxy on it, but not not in the time we have. And the others, the drafts on security. Yeah, I could talk about that. I will.  Daniel's been working on other things and I understand. I mean, it's probably a mess now, because he's probably done a whole bunch more changes to what we've got. Yeah, I have not looked. I apologize, Meg, I really, truly have not looked. No need to apologize.  All right. I think I think I'm at hold for that. We call it good enough for today. Good. OK. Sounds good. Thanks to both of you. Have a great evening. You have a wonderful conference. Talked to you. Talked to you in two weeks. No message. No meeting next week. Thanks. All right. Thanks, y'all. Bye bye.


Supporting Outer Motivation of Younger Learners A common theme that has been present in the 120-hour TEFL course, the 50-hour Business English course and the 50-hours Young Learners course has been that different age groups of students have different expectations of their teacher. Adult learners, for example, have fixed views on teaching and learning styles that they have built off of prior learning experiences. Young learners, on the contrary, typically are open-minded to new learning experiences and teaching methods. Young learners are typically not as motivated to learn English because they may not realize the direct benefits of learning English due to their lack of life experience. To specify, young learners, are any one between the age of 2 and 13. Young learners ages 9-13 are typically more receptive than the young learners aged 5-9, who have shorter attention spans. Motivated students have a greater chance of success in the classroom. If the teacher makes the classes lively and interesting, it will help build motivation in the classroom and the young learners will be more successful. Communicative Approach When a teacher has a class of students aged 9-13, it may be in their best interest to follow the standard communicative approach, where the lessons are student-centered and the teacher acts as a facilitator. The lessons are taught in English, and there is more verbal repetition and drilling. The most important component of this approach is that the lessons involve a high level of activity and high noise levels with a whole range of activities. This allows the learners to engage and practice while having some variety in their learning. While they do enjoy games and group work and pop music, 9-13-year-olds typically would not enjoy singing, dancing and pretending. One way to make the class interesting would be by incorporating pop music, clips from popular TV shows and movies and social media into the lesson. Benefits Like the approach used for 9-13-year-olds, it would also be best to adopt the standard communicative approach for young learners ages 5-9 because it is student-centered. The high level of activity and high noise levels make the lessons engaging. A wide range of activities allows these young learners to stay engaged. With short attention spans, this is a crucial component in the lesson execution. These young learners love movement and doing things. Song and dance, pretending and playing games keep them happy. It is difficult for these young learners to stay quiet and stay still, learning has to be fun for them. The teacher needs to create a very active atmosphere where the activities will change constantly. Rhymes and chants, games, storytelling and arts and crafts are all activities that must be incorporated into the lesson if the teacher wants to have a successful lesson. Are you ready to teach English to young learners? In sum, it is clear that different age groups require different teaching approaches in the classroom. Students ages 9-13 like games and talking with their peers. The incorporation of pop music, popular TV shows and movies and social media will keep the class interesting and more importantly, keep the students motivated. Students ages 5-9 also enjoy playing games. They require high levels of activity and love to be moving and singing. By having a wide variety of activities incorporated in the lesson plan, these young learners will be engaged, interested and motivated. Speak with an ITTT advisor today to put together your personal plan for teaching English abroad. Send us an email or call us toll free at 1-800-490-0531 to speak with an ITTT advisor today.


Good morning, John. This week I spent more than a few moments being frustrated that it was not the right time. Like putting my son to sleep an hour before he thinks it's his bedtime, which resulted in, of course, him sitting in the bed and saying, but dad, I'm not sleepy. Which, like, of course you're not. It was frustrating, and no one liked it. And thus we began our biannual tradition of tweeting together about how we don't like that this thing happens. Can we please just stop changing the clock? And then the U.S. Senate was, like, okay. Like all of them, a hundred percent of the Senate, Democrat and Republican and, like, whatever else we have now. They agreed, yes this is silly and we don't like it and it makes us all very sleepy and you wouldn't like me when I'm sleepy. Now, this is not the full process of a bill becoming a law, but the unanimity does indicate that it might very well be a thing that actually happens. But John, something amazing happened, the moment that a hundred percent of the Senate was like, yes, we agree on this. Suddenly, a lot of people were mad. The disagreement that I saw was of two kinds. The first and most common was of this sort. Oh, so the Senate can do things when they are easy and free, but they can't do things when they are contentious and complicated and expensive.  Look, I don't want to be mean about this, but I'm a little bit sleepy, so I'm not making great decisions. If the choice was between universal healthcare and not changing my clocks twice a year, I would take universal healthcare, but that's not the choice. The choice is should we do this easy and free thing that everyone wants us to do or not? And if your response to bipartisan legislation that will make your life better is I have nonetheless found a way to be angry about it, I think maybe the problem isn't in the Congress, it might be in your chair. And on to the second thing, which I was genuinely shocked by, because of course everyone agrees that we should stop changing the clocks. But there are two ways you can do it. You can stick with standard time or you can stick with daylight time. Congress wants to stick with daylight time, and there's a bunch of people who want to stick with standard time, and I'm like, oh my God, how have we found a way to argue about this? Let's just make the change. Oh my God, no! But just for clarity, the change that the Senate just unanimously agreed on is keeping daylight savings time all year round, which means later sunrises and later sunsets. Here are two of the reasons people are mad. One, I don't want my kid waiting at the bus stop in the dark. They might get kidnapped or hit by a car. And number two, it's anti-science because the Society for Research on Biological Rhythms said that it would be better for people to have more light in the morning than have more light in the evening. I've looked at some of these papers and indeed it seems that there are some very small but detectable differences in the health outcomes of people who live on the far western portions of time zones where sunrises are later and sunsets are later. But there's also research showing that when there's later sunsets, kids get more exercise. There are fewer pedestrian fatalities because people drive around mostly after work rather than before work. And also maybe there's an effect on crime. But again, all three of those things, the effects are really small. And when you ask people, which might also be important, they say they would rather have the extra hour of daylight in the evening when they are more likely to, you know, like use it. And thus as with so much in our society, whether daylight savings time forever or daylight savings time never is the better solution is unclear and complex. And I have decided to do a wildly controversial thing and not care at all about which way we go. Here's what I'll say. And I think that this is important. Perfect is subjective. It's different for every person. And so we are not going to get to perfect for everyone. We might get to perfect for you, but there will be people for whom this will be imperfect. But while perfect is subjective, in this case, for once, better is very clear. So let's stop the war on the clocks and just do whatever lawmakers will agree on. John, I'll see you on Tuesday.