Okay, I'd like to call the meeting to order for the Village of Essex Junction Planning Commission, October 19th, 2017. Is there anybody in the audience who would like to speak about anything, not on the agenda tonight? Yes. Hey Nick. Nice to know you from being on that side of the table. I was a former PC member on the Pleasant Street Junction and sat on the terms and really enjoyed my time on the commission. I kind of stepped down because of some frustrations that I felt during that time. I felt as a commission we were mostly reactive, reacting to applications, to deadlines of updating the land development code. And I felt that one thing that we missed out on was, as commissioners, was really trying to educate ourselves about planning processes, looking at things a little bit differently. And there were many issues and topics that came up during the time that we discussed, and we really need to look into this a lot deeper than we have, or bring somebody in. Those might have been looking at form-based planning, trail and sidewalk connectivity in the village. How do we do this better? Go back and look at the design five corners. What implications of the Crescent connector are going to have on development in the village? And we also talked about variances. When do you issue variances? These were all things that we talked about and felt that we should really delve into a lot more. I think for us to be better commissioners, we need to be educated and look at things differently. We signed up as a commission planning week, and still present tense, to meet possibly twice a month. I believe this is only your fifth meeting this year, and it's been five months since you last met. I'd encourage you to work with staff, try to dig a little deeper to better represent the community, and guide the village towards a visionary, livable and sustainable future. Thank you. Thank you. Okay, let's see. Any disclosure of conflicts of interest or anything pertaining to anything on the agenda tonight? Are you done with what the visitors to speak for? It has to do with something not on the agenda. Then I'd like to ask whether my items have to, they do and they don't. So I'd like some clarification. Let me just get some homework items out of the way, and then we can continue with that. Thank you, I appreciate it. So no disclosures. Anybody who's going to speak tonight about anything on the agenda, I would request that you raise your right hand. Yes, I hereby swear or affirm that the evidence I give in the cause under consideration shall be the whole truth and nothing but the truth under the pains and penalties of perjury. Thank you. Okay, Robin, any additions? Joe, we sent in an email that he wanted on the email. On the red cork, everyone in the Pontic Fish has to call me. Downtown, it's also sent an email, but Joe was only came this afternoon. And no other Pontic Fish members are making tonight, so you're done three. Gotcha. Well, you're done three. Were the copies of the emails left at our... Yeah, they should have been right there when you came in. All right. One more. Sorry, go ahead. My turn. Thank you. The items to that do pertain and don't pertain. The first one is the advertisement for this kind of meeting when big projects like this are being planned. The last time this happened with the my lot building at Five Corners, there was a conversation about, yeah, we probably should have brought the community more into it. This time, I don't see it happening either, so I have a question about that. Watching as Burlington has confronted the proposed development of the Burlington Square Mall, they've had many, many public meetings. They've been able and willing to listen to their citizens as they had questions and ideas. So that's number one. Number two is I want to know what happened to the plan that came out of the Charest. Was it a year and a half ago, Robin? Or... The summer planning meeting when we all went to the high school and spent the day. For the Five Corners? Yes. The Village of Piper grabbed the regional product commission, which was approved. And so where is that? Because we're making all these... It hasn't started yet. Well, but we're making these decisions. Well, these decisions are based on individual lots. I understand. Based on the whole side. But they also pertain to the vision that the citizens spent a day devising. So I don't want to have to come back in a year, and when this is all approved, and all of the buildings are already built and it's too late. So I have a question about that. Okay. Also, I have a question about walkability. When we were told years ago, when the my lot building and all of the traffic concerns were being discussed, we went to Act 250. Walkability was an increased density with the two main reasons for allowing these developments to go through. Absolutely agree with increasing density. We don't want more sprawl in our state. Walkability, absolutely. I have been walking this village for the last six months from one corner to the other many times. The lack of crosswalks and the lack of respect for pedestrians in the crosswalks and the lack of sidewalks on many, many side streets is appalled. So I would like those addressed as these projects are being considered. So I don't know if they pertain to this agenda or if they're separate. Thank you very much. And just a reminder, I apologize, but when you do speak tonight, if you could just tell us who you are, that would be great. I did. Just as an aside also, please, there's a lot of folks that want to speak here tonight. So can we just make sure that we try to limit our comments to two minutes or less? Okay. And please direct your questions and comments to the commissioners. I just wanted more city. Sure. Come on in. Come on in. Please take your turn. Thank you. Stand during these lengthy meetings. Is there another area where we could get chairs? Robert, there's a third of the chairs back there. Are there any more chairs in the back? Are there chairs in the back there? Just two under you. Yeah, feel free to take these as well. Okay, so let's move on to next on the agenda, which will be the minutes from the meeting of May 18th. Are there changes or? Is everything okay? All right, how's it going up there? The board? The 18th. May not. We'll give John two minutes to look at it. Oh, I wrote a line. No, I wrote nothing down. Do I hear a second? All second. All in favor? Aye. All those. Okay. All right. All right, next up on the agenda, site plan review for phase one of an approved master plan to construct a multi-unit elderly housing building at 9-11 Park Street in the VC district. So just as a reminder to everybody, this is a continuation of the conversation that happened when the applicant first came in front of the commission. At that meeting, there were several concerns raised by residents, and the planning commission also asked the applicant for a certain piece of information. Before we get into everything, I'm going to ask Robin to comment on the changes that have been made. The most part of the changes were site plan changes, and the real estate building away from the college residents to 15th and proper. They took out the sidewalk that was contiguous with the property of Park Terrace, put in a fence, and the plantings along with the sidewalk happened. There were two major changes in the site plan. There were some other nuances that had to be shifted because of the building moving. But that was basically it. The architecture and building itself, we got the color of the prints today. Yeah, it's hard. And they have changed the color of the building, which changes the modeling and the shadow lines and so on and so forth. But the architecture itself hasn't changed at all. We did do some changes to it. We made our window projections come out a little bit further. They come out about a foot and a half along the front that's going to help break up the length. Hope to break up the length of the building by creating more vertical elements on that. We added corbels just to tie in to more of what's happening down here on Down Street, just to decorate that at the same time. And we changed the color. So that was primarily the changes that we made on here. So on the plans that we received at our packets, were these changes noted? Yeah, so I'm Luke Willey from Rouge General Engineering. You can kind of represent the civil side of this. So yes, no changes to the plans since the set you're looking at. So the changes that Robin mentioned are basically the extent of what we've done here since the last meeting, as Robin said, bumped the building forward by four feet in order to get the full 15 feet of separation on the west side. Added some more detailing on the hedgerow along that back line. Removed the sidewalk along this stretch and added a solid fence with some additional screening and landscaping. So that's basically it from the civil end and all of those changes are reflected in what you're looking at. Can I make another comment? Sure. During the comments from our last meeting, it was asked that we take a look at maybe putting a pitched roof on this building. We did take a look at that. So all I did is take a quick view of what it would look like to create some type of a pitched roof to tie it into the school, I guess was kind of the concern. I did this at a 6-12 pitch. The pitch on the school is much deeper than that. And in doing the 6-12 pitch, this building grew an additional 11 feet over the parapet that I have right now on the flat proposed elevation. Then I drew it at a 4-12 pitch just to get that elevation down and it just didn't do it justice. It just looked too flat in there. So after taking a look at this, we decided just to go back to the flat roof because we felt it tied in better to what was happening down here and we liked the design better. Any other changes? Do you guys have any quick questions for the applicant? Do you have any drawings that show the buildings around there in relation to that building? We're still looking at different scales and different images that aren't connected. So we get a perspective of what it would look like as you're traveling down Park Street heading north. There's the school. Is this a possible test to see? Here's the school. Here's our building. Here's a newly proposed building. Here's the building that's at the 5 corners right there. So here is the building at the 5 corners. This is a proposed building. This is our building and there's the school right there. So we changed the color to help maybe tie in and soften the look as you approach the school going down that alleyway right there. But we're not going to see much of the building. What are the building materials? If you have questions please make sure you ask the commission. We're looking at an echo slide. It's kind of a really composite horizontal siding and that color is the khaki color. We're introducing a white trim and a green color trim. I'll credit the elevation that you have. I'm I'll credit the elevation. We have a cement board. We want to see what cement board is and we're doing that in the country red color. And then for our we're using a wall trim or something similar to that that we've painted out. So just before we get too much further into this I just have a few comments to make. First of all comprehensive plan and the LDC call for this kind of development in the village center district. This is the kind of project that we're looking for. Senior affordable senior housing is needed. This particular plan I feel meets the basic basic minimum requirements for the VC district. However and I can't speak for my fellow planning commission members. I don't feel that we've been given enough information ahead of time concerning design. In terms of the definition of the design standards for the VC district I don't feel it meets what we're looking for. And we're just seeing this now for the first time just so everybody knows. I feel that if it came to a vote tonight it would not pass. So again I can't speak for you guys but I am inclined to offer the opportunity to continue to the next available meeting or we can probably take a vote on it now and it will probably not pass. What ideas or changes or what's I don't know if the word is correct or is hitting you that you don't care about the building or what you want to change. It's numerous things. And again I can't speak for everybody about what will probably happen tonight. And that is that we have not been afforded enough information ahead of time to make a decent decision. Again many of these things including some things we printed out today we're seeing for the very first time. You know in terms of what I prefer aesthetically is not necessarily what I'm trying to force on the applicant but I don't feel this process has been handled very well honestly. So I don't know if you guys want to make any comments but you know I am giving you the opportunity to Well I think the building looks fine. I just don't know if it belongs right where you're proposing to put and I think that's the issue that we're all trying to wrestle with here is that an appropriate building for that location given its proximity to surrounding neighbors in the Park Street School. So I agree with five minutes of review time I don't possibly have enough time to make a full decision on that. I can tell you that I'm extremely disappointed with that perspective looking up at the Park Street School to see the loss of all the trees that were the buffer between any development on that parcel and the Park Street School because that as a historic view up from Park Street was something very important in most of the planning documentation and community meetings that we've gone through and I thought the deal was that we were going to leave those trees and I see at least in the rendering they're all gone so maybe you can comment on that but I'm kind of upset about that. Just to clarify the landscape plan you will see we've shown some existing trees here that were not shown previously so these are existing trees and then we've added some additional trees along here to create more of a these are kind of a deciduous row here in between our building and I'm not sure if the rendering may not show that but that is the intent here is to add some trees there. This is now essentially on the property line and so there is no opportunity for buffer on your side of the line and I don't see the rendering if the rendering is realistic there isn't a tree left you took them all down. This plan takes precedence over the rendering so the intent is to add some trees to create permission by the village to add trees on the school property for the benefit of this project. I don't know are we doing public comment here? I just have a question about our property line that's all. Sure. So where the adjacent property to I'm Darren Connolly sorry Darren Connolly by school street so they show the property line with some type of hedge buffer between our two properties but I'm not sure who owns those trees. So that's because I look at the markers that are on my property one of them I think you guys did a few years ago with Park Street School but then another one that's on what I think is done I think half the trees are mine and half the trees that they ever say so I'm just like I don't lose my trees Rob you're saying I love my trees Can you comment on that? Well because they filled it back with the nearest property building 15 feet from your property something will be further from your property certainly I should stick it out so your trees aren't damaged in any way but if that building ever was in there then if they lose your tree it's like species that makes sense that would be really expensive for that construction is all the time that's all I was thinking about let's just hold it for just a second I just want to be clear I don't want to waste everybody's time here tonight okay so this is where I'm coming from and I want to hear what you guys think will this go any further if this is where we're at tonight my opinion is it's too big a decision to do it tonight after getting the material tonight I agree the best I would give it is a continuance we can continue this or we can take a vote now and probably deny it I'm sorry yep okay short why don't we have a few comments go ahead start my name is Mary left court and I live on Cascade Court that picture right there so right now when I drive up Park Street I can't see the school first which is on a circular building but I can't see it unless I stop directly in front of the driveway right this building this building whatever that is and this building over here which is, is that McGill Cuddy's building which is across the street from a historic building the contact that building does nothing for the building across the street except for shadowed out completely to change the color of the paint because it's a historic building this building that probably I don't know how long it's been there does nothing for our town the looks of it the shape of it yes we have 200 year old trees which I appreciate you love your trees I love trees so I live in Vermont we want to make sure your trees are safe but we also want somewhere for my mother who's 86 to be able to live and I don't have to worry that in a snowstorm I have to drive way out of town to find them get them to a hospital where they could be here in a town where they're safe there's doctor's offices, there's walking to stores there's bus lines to hospitals doctor's appointments and you guys are fighting over a composite board which I work at Home Depot which is as close as you're going to get to a brick building without spending millions of dollars to your school which is now not even a school right it's just a historic building do you still have a school there yes okay so I'm more worried about the seniors of Vermont I really am, I'm very worried about them I'm very concerned about them they do not have affordable I have been fighting for two years for a place for my parents to live there is absolutely nowhere to put them that they can afford I don't think it's fair since we are the oldest state in the union we have more elderly in the state than Florida I can't count that and we have no place to put these people that is safe that is clean that is up to code and I think we're fighting a battle that is not worth fighting if we're not going to save our elderly because that's what it comes down to we're going to save our elderly or we're going to worry about being finished on our roof to match the school sorry I appreciate your concern for planning this for your family and we're not disputing that we do need senior housing for us the property is too big for the lot so I think I think yes we need senior housing but I don't think this particular lot is the location for it the size it's too much please direct your comments to the commission thank you and the way the plan is now there's not adequate parking you're not going to be able to find a parking spot to visit your mom there's only two handicapped spots there's definitely some big design issues with this property in my opinion that still need to be addressed I would just like to piggyback we hear it all the time we're dealing with planning and zoning and act 250 and everything else so my question would be if you have a concern about what this is going to look like how it is in rhythm with the rest of the property do you do work sessions like Colchester does where rather than keep stabbing at it with $2,000 architectural renderings that get thrown out the door sit with the applicant and say how can we make this work and it works very well in Colchester and it's just something I'm throwing out there but I can tell you if I again if I were in a situation where I had a parent but I wanted them in a walkable safe community that's affordable that's the best use you can possibly have there and ironically when I look at this stuff it's not the size of the building it's what the zoning gives you that you work with they're not asking for variances they're saying that's what they say I can do so Mr. Chairman I respect what you said and you came on strong about it and I even think you probably led them a little bit but the point that I'm trying to make is how do we get past that let's do a work session and let's massage this thing so you get what you want they get what they want and the owner of the property can do what you told them he could do that would be my comment thank you I appreciate that and I'll make a comment and reply to that so nobody is denying the fact that we need affordable senior housing that's definitely this is something that I think we all want to see more of and our concerns we have a large responsibility to make sure that in addition to providing the service that our residents need we also provide a living environment and an aesthetic value that people want to see in the Village Center District it's very important there are a lot of concerns so we want to make sure that we're thorough we feel or I feel that the applicant in this case had adequate time to address concerns that were previously addressed and did not do so to our satisfaction so that's why this is coming out like this tonight hopefully that helps a little bit and just to piggyback that this was delayed for personal reasons yes we're aware of that yes wasn't designed to do that can I make a comment? the comment of the trees I just want to go back to what I was talking about when I go by I've lived in Vermont in this area all my life and I never knew there was a school house back here because again like she made the comment that you drive down here unless you are stopped in traffic you don't see the structure there most of today because of the row of trees there you literally have to almost drive by and then turn this way to look to see the school I understand wanting to keep trees and how nice the trees are and everything but if you open up that that gateway there to that school visually you're going to be able to see it more now and we do have some trees in this perspective but I mean they're not going to show up to be other things right now so we do have some plantings in there for his site plan right great yes sir my name is I live over in Jackson street I've been hanging around the village since about 70 years the building you didn't know what it was it's the old hood creamery okay I'm a little confused about what you said Mr. Chairman when you started you said this fit the plan and everything but then you said it wasn't the right building correct how can it fit the plan is it the design of the building that's not liked sure so let me clear I'll just try to clarify for you if I misspoke I apologize what I mean to say is that in terms of the LDC or the code the building fits but in terms of design review and what our responsibilities are in the village center district in terms of design review my opinion is it does not fit at this time with that view that view will change if the Hinsdale building goes up three stories high where is now and that's going to change the view not only of the school but of this building in fact will see potentially it could be different but we're talking about this particular application the trees I'm sure there's some trees there that could be left I watched them strip maple trees when I was a kid they cut a tree in the place down all the good maple's land used to be a umbrella and still trees are coming back but I just have a lot around in the village and I guess my point is that I think we're getting hung up on some picky you and things I'm a senior citizen I'd like to move in there that's great so I could walk around the village and not have to drive to it all the time I think maybe instead of saying it doesn't fit design wise or something I mean if you could give them give them a quick workshop that says this is what we'd like to see and they could do that for you but I think by delaying this a lot of the seniors are looking forward to moving in here aren't going to be able to afford it by the time he gets around to building it thank you thank you yes, Nick well I applaud Dave for the development here and he's done a lot in this extension I think that it's like it's a little big for the lot because we're really shoe horning in the lot lines are what for the schools 10 feet 12 feet to the school property and one foot one foot and then you took a side there was a sidewalk in there that you took out and now we have a striped markings on the parking lot which is going to be now this is for elderly housing doesn't it make sense to have continuous sidewalks to that area rather than risking possible accident in the parking lot and the is there any green space outside at all for residents to enjoy any any place at all lawn area we've got a courtyard area that's we've got a courtyard area area people are going to hang out how big is it a lot of us can't see it's it's about 20 by 20 roughly and then this is all green space behind the building as well I'm just thinking we're looking for amenities for elderly people too this is a walkable community and we really are trying to emphasize connectivity and I don't think striping a parking lot is adequate for a sidewalk and I know that's got a restraint so maybe downsizing the building a little bit to try and accommodate some of these other things thanks yes in the back me? yes I live at 10 school street what this gentleman just said was part of what I was hoping to bring up the fact that in a senior environment the lack of wide sidewalks to accommodate walkers and wheelchairs and accessibility is critical the fact that you would have people in the wintertime potentially navigating snow banks and icy terrain and cars turning around I think is incredibly un-pedestrian friendly so it's nice to imagine what everything looks like in the summertime but I think you also need to have that winter vision where when there's snow banks and other hazards in the parking lot the placement of the vent next to the neighbors line I have to say it seems like there needs to be a very much more consideration if you happen to be a resident who is unfortunate enough to have your home contiguous to a zoning area that allows 100% lock coverage and no green space how do you make everybody work have a livable space together and there are I believe considerations in the land code for the distance between the property lined and a residential property there'll be headlights there'll be noise there's going to be a vent from the bottom the underground parking I mean all those things come into play it's not just McGillicuddy's building which is smack in the middle of the village central this is an oversized building butted up against residential homes that have been I've lived in my home for over 30 years we're talking about getting along and this building just seems like it's too big for the site I'm wondering if pets will be allowed we're meeting lots of new pet owners from the McGillicuddy building who have no green space and need to walk their pets I don't believe did Mr. Handy ever specify affordability I don't believe so I believe Mr. Handy specified it would be a 55 and over building but as far as having the rents be affordable or conform to any sort of he did they're going to be affordable according to what standard please direct your I'm just saying if they are going to be affordable that's great but I don't recall seeing that in the specs but the turning around the fact that you've got all these different uses in such a tight area just seems to me to bear much more scrutiny and I'm really happy that you guys are not so quick to sign off on this I think there's a lot of impact and we do need senior housing but we need smart senior housing and compatible senior housing so thank you just one quick black comment it's an interesting comment about the affordability because sometimes people align affordability with a subsidy from a bank or BHFA or something like that but how many people in this room know a builder that's building one bedroom homes there's none they don't exist so the alternative is to collectively put them together so that they are affordable and that's what creates the affordability is to collectively use the same law with the density that's granted to you I'm a builder too so I look at that and I always have people coming to me saying hey could you put a cottage in my backyard a one bedroom cottage you know whether it's for someone whose house is passed away and he wants to live in the small house and run out the four bedroom to somebody so he's not dependent on social security or things like that this is an alternative not a solution so there's not many tools out there in the toolbox we can use to build a one bedroom home to make it affordable so this is the alternative thank you but it's a rental it's not a home it's still a home exactly I know what we're talking about me I'm Janet Wilson and I live at Two School Street right behind Park Street School is Mr. Handy adamant that he needs a size building can I ask him well I can Gabe do you want to comment on that the size of the building yeah are you adamant that you need a building that large the in the business world that's what I am in business and I own several buildings I own also senior housing buildings and to make the numbers work I would need to get 43 units if I don't get 43 units I would reduce the size more likely they would end up being two bedroom units and my next choice would be to go straight rental as the next building you're going to be hearing after I leave what's going to be straight rental I could go to a lesser unit with straight rental but then it's going to be families or kids and noise factors the fact is that I have senior housing I need that many numbers also remember seniors they go to bed at 8 o'clock they're not noisy well I know an average I do fall asleep at 9 o'clock so I say but also David Mr. Chairman we listened to you very carefully after the last meeting when you said you could respond this and I believe we came back and you said take the sidewalk off we took the sidewalk off I had a sidewalk you guys asked me to remove it I did you asked me to add the stockade fence to protect the neighbors from headlight shining well we never shine anyway because the car would drive in facing the building not parking doors but I also provided the fencing moved the building 4 feet pushed the exhaust fan further down run all the time as you know with the new energy efficiency they only come on if they need it 90% of the time the fan will not run these are the concerns I believe I hired a professional to do a 3D as you guys requested that was $2,000 and now you tell me you don't even like it so I'm sound a little upset I have the right I know you put your hand up I like that the rendering is beautiful we didn't say we didn't like we're still having an issue with the overall question about whether that building really fits in that location so you try and tell me there are too many units in there that we all be saying these are the same issues that we had that we asked to have clarification on we gave some suggestions on how the building might actually be softened so that it feels a little smaller personally my biggest problem is one foot from the property line to Park Street School it's illegal to do that unless you actually get your neighbor to say it's okay in this case it's the village so I'm still looking for some clarification on how that works because you can't exit your building without stepping on somebody else's property I still don't get that I don't get that the village was okay with me to have it for the line I've got you there right up front I have people sitting here I also didn't permission to do the planting on the village property to plant new trees I mean technically as your rules are written I mean all the setbacks I'm not asking for any variances the only thing you're trying to hang on me is the design review thing that's what it's coming down to it's not a little thing I'm fine except that's a big thing but you guys have not really said this is what we want that's what we want all you can say come back and I keep coming back I'm not going to come back anymore I'm going to be straight honest with you guys so you guys have a choice tonight either deny me or approve me but unless you want to sit with me the next couple weeks and tell me what do you really want because I have my chance I'll take my chances somewhere else I mean I do a lot for this village I never ever burnt anybody I never upset any neighbors everything I have built this is the first time around I find negative stuff I'm getting a little upset with it I'll make a couple comments on that game first of all and just so everybody knows the concept we like the project we want to see this kind of thing happen in the VC district I believe that you've done what you can to address the residents concerns the property owners around the site I also believe again that the basically it fits within the code except for the design aspect now my question is is it our job to tell you what we want or is it your job to come here with something that we can all agree on you're upset with us but I'm just saying from our perspective this is the very first time we've seen any of this tonight I'm just making that point I understand but that's again what I said to you guys very carefully last time and you said come back and show us how does it fit with the school next door I did and I could show you that it is lower than the school roof by several feet I mean if there's an impact please somebody come out and tell me what it is because I don't want to be guessing all that's all I'm doing now is guessing what everybody's thinking so come out and tell me I know you're saying it's not your job but I don't understand what's in your mind give me some ideas one of the comments that we made was to put a roof on to make it look like it's a highland village when we started putting a roof on this building the building grew so we thought let's keep the flat roof on it the impact is going to be less and to us with everything that's going on on Main Street everything's pretty flat and pretty monolithic or whatever so we thought we were tying in to Main Street all along here you've got flat roofs on a lot of these buildings out here you've got this wide band of trim at the top of the roof it's not as ornate, there's not brick on here no but I think we're in a transitional area where you've got residential and we're moving to commercial space we're next to the railroad tracks there used to be I'm sure warehouses here where supplies were dropped off this is a transitional area I don't understand why this doesn't fit honestly can you do with the cyclone and then can we see the rendering that looks like this one here do you want to bring it closer to you no I find it I mean in the general scheme of things well but that's not the way it's rendered and I guess that's why I've been after the tree issue because it's not that I'm married to the trees I'm married to the fact that there's some boundary between that building and the Park Street School and right now the way it's rendered and I agree this building is behind a lot of stuff you know from almost every direction it's behind things except from Park Street School viewpoint which this drawing happens to show and the issue is that you now have no no visual anything between this new building and the historic Park Street School and that has been a big issue in the past and it's governed a lot of decisions and so I'm not you know this is the first time I'm seeing it and I'm not ready to say well that doesn't matter that still matters a lot there really are supposed to be trees in there there are trees it's fall fully it's fall fully I don't see any trees in there they're right here you know it's 6 feet high what happened to the ones that are 50 feet high now are they gone? well yeah because we're building on the property line so those trees have to be removed they're on his property so that's the issue and we asked and this may be a village matter but that boundary needs I think it's very important that that boundary be maintained so we have to wait 50 years for the trees to grow up before everybody decides that they're there again or can we get some I think the village has to understand that these trees are on their property so even if he plants them it really should be there but I think the fire chief is probably going to state when we meet with him what type of tree or how close he wants the trees to be against that building too at the same time if he has choice he won't have any I remember them on projects I think it's a negative impact to the Park Street School so I've run into this myself it's a tough call but I think that Park Street School is being negatively impacted we can get more into that but I want to finish up with the public comments I'll take a couple more if there are more I'm wondering about the exhaust I didn't notice that it was moving I didn't know if it was omitted or where it's been moved to my concerns are we walk down to the to McGillicuddy's fairly often and if we're near that we cannot hear each other talk and it's so I've downloaded a handy-dandy app it's a hundred decibels I'm really concerned about the proximity to my property as it is with the Park Street School they have a HBAC unit that runs even in the winter we'll be outside playing in a handbag playing with the dogs whatever and that thing comes on and we can't really hear each other I'm really really concerned about this exhaust vent insulation I don't think it should be but it's definitely near not residences at the last meeting the last meeting we did state that if there was a noise issue that we could build I would call it a doghouse I've built those before around those type of exhaust vents and they work fine so what is the new location though it was relocated it's down so it's placed over in here and if I can get the thing to move further away from your house the documents I will do that so that's the side facing yes it is because your house is over more toward here do I hear the motion motion to close the public form I hear a second alright questions for the applicant what do you guys think speaking of what I said before I think it's entirely unfair that we get stuff at the night of the meeting and we have to make a ruling on it and that's not how this works it's way too big a project it's got a lot of competing interests I don't think we solved the basic issues of safety in the parking lot I love what they did to the building I just I got problems with you know how it hits its neighbors I'm too again I keep going back to the fact that I just we don't feel that we had enough information beforehand to make a good decision about this and there's still I said it the first time we had this discussion that it's there but it's not there yet it's not ready there's too many unanswered questions I did not deliver the drawings last week I had them delivered from the printers I did not realize they didn't include the colored drawings in your office when she told me first thing this morning I printed it and I sent it right over there as fast as I could so I apologize I did not realize they did not get delivered but they were part of the package I sent to the printers we've had this come up before where people have we felt as a commission that the project wasn't complete when we were asked to make a decision and going back on some of the conversations that we've had this is too important it's the village center it's a building that's going to be around for a long time we want this to happen but I'm not inclined to I just feel like it needs to be tweaked a little bit it needs to be better thoughts? I agree with all the comments and I'm also I recognize what David is saying about the money and stuff that he has to put it into this project so I don't know how feasible that is to do something I know they work with staff but if it's possible to call a work session well if we continue it like we were talking about like I offered before then I'm assuming that opportunity would be there I don't have any issues with that at all I have absolutely no issues with that at all but I'm not willing to make this a yes for tonight so if you guys want to do that I'm happy to do a work session I'm happy for your work session I guess the way I try to think about this is that the good decision is when everyone's equally unhappy and I feel like there are going to be some people who are going to be unhappy because it's the village center that is promoting dense growth which is what we need for a village center to grow and for there to be walkability there needs to be a number of dense new people so there are going to be big buildings coming in and I think I was maybe a little closer than some on this project it took me I mean seeing the 3D thing I think was super helpful a lot earlier because it's very hard to visualize how it's going to look in relation to everything else and that's been a sticking point since pretty much the beginning so I wasn't as concerned about the trees and the lot line until listening to John a little bit maybe I'm not as stuck on that my big sticking point was really the sidewalk the illumination of the sidewalk but other than that I think that we're looking for a situation where everyone's equally unhappy where Gabe's given a little and other people have given a little and I think that we can come to that with this building and this location but I think maybe we have a few things to iron out first so just on the safety part of this does the village engineer look at the walkway through the parking lot and is there an authority higher than us that says that's okay I mean we're supposed to say that's okay yeah shared parking is fairly common in Europe every situation is different shared service shared service so is that treated differently from the pavement for example so it's less slippery than a regular parking lot textured pavement yeah I don't really have an issue with the lot line either that wasn't my main concern or the trees I mean it's a tough area because of the parking lot I just there has to be a better there has to be a way to improve the design a little bit to fit better with the school right there all the other buildings around it and don't forget there are residences around there too there are people that live around that building so you know I understand it's a different kind of structure and it's not going to 100% fit but it's got to be something I'm not an architect it's not what I do so I can't be I can't tell you what I'm looking for so John is I'll tell you what he wants for architecture but I just feel that there's a little ways to go and again I offered the compromise before to continue this I think it's the way to go we could all you know we would probably set it up as a work session where the entire planning commission would be here that's how it would go so if you guys don't have any other questions for the applicant I'm not going to waste everybody's time for Tina's Flutter tonight so we all you know can we work with that gate? in terms of continuation I understand the money in a time but I really feel I was hoping to have something in the ground for the first of the year doesn't look at now so how once the next meeting well we'll figure that out by the end of this meeting it doesn't have to be publicly warned again if you continue it if we meet as a commission it will have to be publicly warned yes if we meet as a commission we have to want it for a state law so that's another month well if we call a work session it doesn't have to be warned so a work session has to be warned if you continue it it doesn't I'm sorry what? if you call a work session it has to be warned if you just continue it to the next meeting it doesn't have to be warned you might better have a work session in your morning yes but we still have to continue it until the next meeting absolutely that's why we would warn it okay so let's do that work session and then ask for the continuous that gets warned I mean you could end up with just a people nobody's opinion is going to be the same in this meeting I mean realistically really? I mean if we don't continue no no let's continue this okay and then we'll figure out the meeting thing later okay so do I hear a motion to continue the discussion on this application until the next scheduled what is it work session or meeting can we make sure it happens in two weeks instead of waiting a month absolutely yep absolutely two weeks regular okay do I hear a second can you do that you made a motion apparently I did I did really well second all in favor all opposed okay thank you for your time so this I'll keep you to the next application where and on where and on where and on where and on where and on where and on and on where on where and on where and on where and on I'll take a five minute break we'll just going to take a five minute break all right okay at 1523 Park Street in the VC district. Is the applicant here? Yes, you're all here. All right, take it away. Robin, do you want to comment first? Sure, I don't know if people saw my staff report. It was on the ghost website. But I was pleased to see this building coming in. I do believe it is a bar for an architectural design and a center district. I hope other people come by to clear. And the accommodate staff requests that they give us to give the village 10 foot of sidewalk. So we're going to have a wider sidewalk. I'd said the new buildings will be set outside. Hopefully a nice restaurant. During that, they lost some parking spaces. They were hoping to do underground parking. But unlike for pro street water table, this size is about three and a half feet, five feet. And they couldn't do underground parking. So that led to reducing the size of the building and changing the footprint to have some parking underneath the building at the back. And they approach a little bit onto the building's property and I have checked with the administration. The administration are willing to enter into the basement for the residential parking. The Park Street School, six years ago, entered in agreement with the village to do parking at the front of the Park Street entrance. That would be public parking available for any people going to the existing garage and building. That public parking, there's overnight parking, and the public parking, that's another way if the limelight's during the factory would be residential parking, it would be public parking, and partially retail parking for the building. So that's the first time I've ever took a staff tour. And I like the administration designers love tech and architecture, they're all very little arts. There's art in this building. Thank you. Heck, thank you. I'm Don Stewart from Stewart Construction. And my office is pretty cool over here. And my business has been in the junction for 25 years, 18 of which have come right here on Pearl Street. And downtown Essex Junction is my neighborhood. And the family's on Park Terrace and School Street are my neighbors. And our approach has been to build something that makes sense in this neighborhood and for our neighbors as well. We're here tonight to present to the Planning Commission a new building on Park Street. And the site has been in the Hinsdale family for 40 years. The current structure, though it houses three commercial tenants and one apartment, has outlived its serviceable life. It's time for a new approach. And that's what we bring tonight. In the land development code, Essex Junction has designated the Village Center as a way to preserve and enhance the village through new development. What Hinsdale Properties is proposing, I believe is a perfect fit for that vision. The area is becoming increasingly urban by design. It is a walkable downtown. And this project will connect new businesses and new tenants to the existing downtown in a way that will contribute to the overall social and economic strength of the Village Center. So careful consideration has gone into the design of the building. We have reviewed the Village Land Development Code. We have considered the impact on the neighbors in the neighborhood. And we spent considerable time discussing the purpose and design of the building with the Community Development Director. We believe we've come up with a building that will enhance the collective sense of community in Essex Junction. The new building will have an engaging community sense to it. It'll have a walking terrace in the front of the building that will lead to both storefront and overhead door entrances that will make walking into the businesses that are there both easy and attractive. We have reduced the impact on the neighbors by parking behind the building and screening the parking under the end screening. And plus there's additional screening of the parking that is underneath the building. So what have we tried to accomplish? And maybe that's really the most important thing tonight to try to help you all understand both the board and our neighbors. What we're trying to do is we're trying to accomplish is to dramatically improve the sense of Park Street including moving the parking behind the building. And so this allows for an artistic streetscape leading to a welcoming entrance to the building. So what we're after is something that is easy for people to access and will on Park Street give a sense of continuity as you come into this section of the downtown development area. We're after building a beautiful building where the design harmoniously blends modern and historic elements in the building center. And we'll get into this more as our architect speaks about the building. We're also excited to provide new retail spaces in a walkable environment. We're going to bring new market rate one bedroom studio apartments studio apartments to downtown. We'll bring tenants in that are excited about living in the downtown S6 junction in part because of the easy access to public transportation, on-site parking and benefits like indoor bike storage. We are trying to continue to add to the divide defined urban sense of the village center district, increase the economic viability of downtown and add to the social fabric of S6 junction. This is a legacy profits, excuse me this is a legacy building for the Hinsdale family after 40 years they have made a significant commitment to really upgrade and add something that will be a tremendous contribution to the downtown area. And I believe that the building is consistent with the expectations that have been set forth in land development code and goes right to the need for new, well-designed human scale buildings that comfortably fit into our village. And we will now go and talk about Derek Reed from Krebs and Lansing to talk about the civil and parking issues. So as Don said, my name is Derek Reed I'm with Krebs and Lansing civil engineer. Don gave a much more broad overview of the building and I'll give a little bit more of a technical overview. So the site as mentioned was the building is sited 10 feet back from the property line to sort of make that front entrance more attractive, more welcoming, walkable, usable landscaping in the front. You can see from the site that there's not a lot of green space we've maximized the lot with building and the parking. We've provided a loading area just to the south that will get vehicles off the roadway while entering the commercial space. We've added 20, there's 28 units, 26 apartments and two studios. And the Hinsdales were, it was very important that at least a parking space for each unit was available. So we have provided the 28 plus additional parking spaces for the commercial space or visitors of the space. We also have parking available across the street the eight spaces here. We have depending on time of day there's an additional 21 up behind. If you go back to the Google, yeah. There's an additional 21 in this area. And then just on street parking that's available all in close proximity to our site. There's 19 spaces over here. We have a bus stop right in front of our parcel that we're maintaining. So certainly the project is trying to do the best we can to balance the parking requirements and the village center feel. As far as stormwater that is important, this project we mentioned that the water table is very high out here. So this is a challenging site because it's very sandy but the high water table makes the stormwater system challenging. We put chambers underneath the parking lot that you won't see but they'll collect and infiltrate the runoff and we maximize as much of the site as we could but we were kind of balancing elevations because the water table dictates our stormwater system. So we ended up also collecting some of the school property and we're treating offsite stormwater as well to sort of mitigate what we want treating in our site. The building is fed by municipal water and sewer that we've worked with the village to design system that is acceptable, kind of highlights the civil technical side of things and Israel will get into the building, sure. Thank you. I'm Israel Smith from Smith Buckley Architects. We're really excited to share this design with you today. I think we really wanted to make something that was in keeping with the village center guidelines and criteria. We think that those are really aligned with the way that we like to make buildings and make downtowns. And it was, when we read through and we're talking about early on the concept with the Hinsdales, we were really happy to see that interests were really aligned here and that we were gonna have a good time making this project because it really sort of checked all the boxes on things that we like to do and making a walkable downtown and having a nice mix of uses and making for a porous street edge. We've got a building that is really, really very simple on the one hand. It's got a base, middle, top. The materials are articulating that. The brick going up two stories. The metal panels at the top set in a little bit to sort of get a nice flair and extra depth to the cornice. The detailing again with the precast. Zoom in on that a little bit here. The precast base and cap pieces up here. Again, just reinforcing that base, middle, top to a three-story building, sort of a classic urban environment. But I think with a small U, this is a village center. It's not a giant urban center. We feel like this is the right scale and the right combination here. Other little things that really sort of contribute to that walkable environment as you focus on this ground floor here. You have the entrance ways are articulated in different ways between the different commercial spaces. We've got a little sort of a cowling and sign band accenting this entrance and then a canopy over here. So these are sort of little centers of attention on the building. So we have multiple areas of activity in and out, but also they work together as a whole and sort of bring the whole thing. When you stand back, it all works together. I don't want to go too far into too much detail about the things when I look at it, I see a million things that I like about it. I think that Robin did a good, a very nice sort of succinct summation in the staff report. And I pretty much agree with what he said there. I don't have anything really to add or differ with you on that report. To walk you around the rest of the building here, actually let's step back to the five corners. You can see here, so the new building here at the corner sort of sets down a marker for a street edge and carries this line across. We're a little shorter than that building. We're holding that line. I hope that someday another building will fill in this area here and really start to define a nice street edge. And of course in my model here, we're only showing all the stuff at the street, all the street furnishings and trees and things at our building, but I would assume the rest of the master plan fills out the rest of the block as well with a nice streetscape. So we're doing our best to contribute to that overall downtown center feel. And we feel like again that this height and area and massing is in good keeping with the overall plan as you move away from the center. A little closer here, even with these existing buildings, I think the scale of this is not so bad. You know, I think that three stories and a flat roof, you see a lot of this these days mixed in with the older, more traditional two and a half story peak roof buildings. And I think it's just right as an old and new contrast there. And really when you look at the form of this, I wanna go back to the form of this again. This is really an older sort of historic massing and form of these three story height, a nice hefty, but not too much cornice at the top and the base middle top being that sort of classic reading. From the other direction here, this is the south, right? Yeah. Yeah. And we have this corner being held pretty well. The massing at the back is a different material. And again, that's part of our attempt to break the building up a little bit, let that area at the back fade out a little bit. The material is not altogether different though. We're projecting a metal panel siding for the top here. And this would also be, this would be two types of metal siding at the back side here. A different material in between the window base there. And also using that same material to screen the parking that's located under the building. They're sort of a little closer in. I really like how the canopy extends the sort of human scale and kind of starts to make a little bit of an enclosure where the tree canopy is like that. And it really starts to make a nice experience to walk around, you know, at night when you're walking around here, you'll have some light coming in from the commercial buildings if you had a restaurant in there or something like that. And you're really gonna feel like it's the right scale. You're not up against the giant building or something with the trees and the canopy and the lighting from inside. This is a view from the back side here. This is actually the apartment building entrance here. The commercial space entrances are on the street side. Folks that are coming to the apartments, there's walkway to connect from the front. And this is sort of highlighting the entrance here. This one, are we in here on this again? This material here? That is a, that is a, like a cement pan. I apologize, I'm filling in for my partner. So I don't have all the details on this. So this is a different material here that's again, bringing the scale down instead of a large brick facade here at the apartment entrance. We have a panel material here, something that is nice when you walk up and touch it. Again, the overall site, which we talked a little bit about, I wanna focus in a little bit on how nice this front entry point is here. We've got multiple ways to get up a couple of steps onto this slightly elevated terrace area where you could have outdoor seating if it was a restaurant or cafe. If it was a retail establishment, you might have a sidewalk sale out there or something like that. It creates a little bit of a buffer, allows us to have a more generous landscape in the area as well. And I think really helps to set the building off and create a nice public realm and zone here at the street front. So that's it, I think. I think there may have been something else here. Let me see. Great. Yeah, I could go on if you want me to, but I... That's good. Okay. That's good. Thank you. At this time, well actually... Can I say something? Sure, go ahead. The trouble we staff reported about it was covered. I think there is one area that you brought to the building that was a little bit powerful. Oh yeah. Yep. Yeah, I welcome that comment. I thought that was spot on. The minute we saw the note in the staff report, Cleary and I said, oh yeah, we really want to work on that a little bit more. You know, what Robin's referring to is these windows here, these sort of squarish windows and he was hoping for maybe something, what did you say was feeling unresolved there? Yeah, I think I said something. I think it's an opportunity for public art. There was an event that happened just last month here. It was led by two residents of the village, Steam Fest, and I think maybe they could work with you guys for some public art. You could look right there and not take away from the building which we have. I think that may be something to think about. I'm sure they model your budget because the landscape in 10% is you're not going to reach. I see. Well, I don't know, those trees are really big. Those are four or 500 feet high. I'm going to be seven. I think the discussion about public art is a good one. I think I'd like to perhaps decouple it from this particular unresolved area because I'd like a shot at actually getting the building right in that area before we look at putting art there. It's a little bit of the architects grow IV discussion. I would like to think about these windows a little bit more and come back to you. We may want to put public art there or we may actually come to you with a slightly different design for this that everyone likes. And I just like the opportunity to do that and come back. Yeah, let's fight it. We'll let you guys fight it out. So I just wanted to make one point for those of you who may not have understand what we're looking at here. This is a conceptual site plan. So it's not a final plan tonight. This is just conceptual, okay? Just want to make that point. And I'd like to invite the commission members to ask questions. Let's do this first. I only have a couple. That's amazing. It's a proposal. You guys are welcome. I'm going to get me a pair of fours. That's not enough. First, nice presentation by all of you. It really helps to understand where you're coming from on this. And I think we've all seen that property for a while and we know it's right for some things. This is a nice, fairly major upgrade. So thanks for that. I'll just start out with my architectural one. I was sort of offended by the notion that you would refer to something on there as unresolved. I like the opportunity word better. It's a friendly thing, but you know, we have going. But I'm just, I was struck by one thing and that is that for the last hundreds of years, the sort of street level, first floor was traditionally broken apart from the upper levels with something, you know, like the fenestration was different or that it was a signed ban or it was canopies or something. And if you actually look at your fenestration pattern, it doesn't do that. And there's no horizontal one. And that may be a reflection of something a little more modern or it may be a reflection of something that's going on inside that we don't know about. But I just wondered if you could comment on that. You're thinking of some sort of horizontal band or something along here. Well, just, I'm not saying you need one. I'm saying I don't know why it's not there. And, you know, like the, like it took me until I saw the colored renderings to make out that they're overhead doors there, which is kind of nice because we get asked to do that a lot on these type of projects. So the fenestration type changed but the opening organization didn't change. And so that's the difference. You know, usually the whole facade changes at the first floor, not just the, what's in the opening, the openings actually change. So that didn't happen here. I just, just curious. Yeah. Exactly what you said. We, you know, we've, we often do something with a horizontal band or something where a break in a different material at the base like that. On this one, we wanted to try and do it with the openings and with the solid boy relationship to make that distinction between the bottom here and the top. I think it was fairly successful. I think that the canopy and this sign band here helped to, you know, reinforce that line as well rather than a literal break line or a different material. Is it? Is it? Well, we didn't want it. Part of what we were trying to do was, was to not necessarily just sort of mimic the old forms just because. I think sometimes as they use the device, I think here we sort of liked it without it. And we tried it both ways and sort of said, you know, we like that. It feels a little more clean and contemporary enough today. It is interesting. You have a number of things that feel very comfortable and recognizable and then, you know, a little thing like that and, you know, you left something out and it makes a big difference. So it's, but it's fine. You know, it's fine. I suppose it carries. I think not having that detail actually tames down the building a little bit. It actually makes it look, you know, it kind of, it fits better. I think. I agree. Can you, how wide is that front terrace? And do you see tables and little cafe chairs and stuff possibly out there? Is that a possibility? It's full of the building, yeah. No, I mean, it's a lot of the other way. Between ten and four. So it's plenty big enough for a little terrace kind of thing. That was the design, yeah. And the landscaping out there, which I think is admirable, is it gonna make it? I mean, it's tough to maintain landscaping in, you know, I mean, it's a sea of sidewalk and driveways and spray from the salt trucks and all the rest of that. It's, I'm guessing that's gonna be tough to really keep. Do you, I mean, it's not necessarily urban either. I mean, in a little urban, it's great, but I don't know if they're gonna survive. They're gonna get hammered from both directions. So, you know, it's not typically street walk, urban kind of treatment there. I love it. I admire you for doing it, but I'm just nervous that it won't make it. The trees will probably be fine. The shrubs and you know what? On some of the renderings, it looks a little. We didn't really render all of them. Tumble weed or something. We didn't have that many sketch of objects to render all of that, yeah. So just something to consider because I know Mike is good at this and I know that, you know, there's probably salt tolerant versions of everything, but I would just, you know, I don't wanna see a whole lot of money spent on greenery that can't handle the location. You know, you're asking a lot of. That's a good point. Considering you're not going to be able to utilize the 2%, the full 2% of the budget, it may be a good idea just to, you know. Well, there are other forms that it could take. The landscaping could, you know, maybe you face it in granite or something and your budget's shot on stone instead of green stuff that can't handle. So there are things you can do there that might be more, you know, just hardy, I guess. Just a thought. And I didn't hear a comment about lighting along that front. I heard there'd be lights spilling out from the inside and I know there's street lights. We don't have, Rob, we don't have the village street lights down that far yet. Yeah, we do. We do. I think they're in the plan. The village street lights there. So there'll be plenty of light on the outside. There's one right here. There's also one right here. So Rob, and I'll go back to, did these plans come to you in color? Can we get these in color on these types of submissions when they're obviously done in color? Can we get them in color? Yes. I can email them to you in color. We don't have the ability to print them in color. That's fine. I set up a printing for everybody. Shall we have some of the half size sets that are out here are in color? So does it any benefit to anybody? I had a quick question about the storm water, back to the storm water, the storage tanks that you had mentioned. Is that similar to what they did in this building here? The robin, can you comment on that? It is similar. In terms of the technology that they're using? Yeah, it's only working on that. They're sort of, they're like a corrugated yellow half dome that water fills up and then just keeps getting piped to the next one, and eventually it's in color. I get it. Hop side, go ahead. This is going to get back to the whole discussion that we had earlier about the Park Street School and the screaming, but if you pull up the site plan, is there one? This one or the other? Yeah, that one. Do you have the one that shows you a little bit more? Yeah. Towards the, That one? Yeah. So again, this is a project that relies a little bit on the generosity of its neighbor, which is finding the arrangements have been planned for for years, that this kind of thing would happen. So as long as the village and the landowner got it all squared away, then we'll just comment on kind of what's happening here and not recognize the line. But as you head sort of with your view up the hill towards the school, the best place to put a tree is right there, right? That corner that would be the last piece of the Hinsdale project corner before the new proposed driveway comes out from the parcel above. And then immediately on the other side, those locations, if those can be kind of beefed up, that will go a long way towards addressing any issues that either project has in affecting that, you know, what's still basically kind of that Park Street school. Which two, are you talking about two corners? This one? That one and then the one that's just off your picture there. Oh. It's the other side of the driveway. The southwest corner of the Hinsdale property, where there is a tree shown. Yeah. And so just to make sure I understand what you're after, John, we've got a sizable tree there. Are you looking for something different? I'm just saying that's, you know, I want, I think the whole area, the whole situation can be improved by making sure that's as dense as we can get it. So, you know, maybe there are two trees or maybe there's, you know, make sure we're looking at that because that's a key piece to a much bigger issue. Yeah. And then the other corner is not on your project, it's right. Amber? Did you have? Yeah, I have a couple of comments. I think it's exciting, you know, that the opportunity to do this with this space. Because it's the VC district and we're really trying to focus on the walkability and bringing bikes and stuff to this area, I noticed that you guys put the bike storage, which I'm guessing is for the tenants. Is there a spot meet here that you can put a bike rack for those that are coming in the commercial spaces? Somehow incorporate that into the model. There is, there is. We have some space that is going to be up against the building under the covered area on the far side that is not large enough for a parking space. So, directly up against the building. Yes. And I think Amber is hoping that somebody who's coming to one of those. For the commercial. You're looking for something out front? Yeah. Yeah, or somewhere in that, you know, area. Is Amber, are you after a bike rack or because some places like Burlington require a covered bicycle area? And that would be very hard to do in the streetscape. The building doesn't require that. No, we don't require that. So a bike rack is totally suitable. Yes, add something up front on the commercial side. Yeah, yeah, really geared towards the commercial visitors. Absolutely. They made a card so you wouldn't use a bike rack. Yeah. That's good. There are some interesting classes. Did that be part of the public article? You could. Talk to Robert about that. I'm not sure. If you hire an artist to do it. Steven, do you have any trouble with that? I'm not ready. OK. Anything else, Amber? Yeah, wait a minute. I'll come back. Come back to me. I gave him one. OK. Amber, is it OK if I? Yeah, yeah, go ahead. So at this time, I'd like to invite members of the public to comment to the commission. If there's anybody that would like to speak. Yes. Thank you, Linda McKenna and I in school. Thank you very much, Mr. Stewart, who came around to every house individually with plans, with a partner or with a friend to help get us ready to think about this. And I really appreciate that. Thank you very much. I have a question about the, it looks like there's a new driveway or a roadway between your building and what's now the rental, but it was the camping store a long time ago. Is that right? Is there a, it looks like in the plans that there's a some kind of driving. I think that's proposed as part of the other project. Yeah, we're just trying to take the design of what we need. I don't, yeah, I don't have that one. So that is true. It's proposed as part of the project behind, behind. So not on the, not up the Park Street School, or Park School, Park Street School driveway side, but the other side of the building. Yeah, yes. So how wide is that? I can't tell from the plan. It's not part of their project. That's not part of their project. That's the other project. Oh, thank you. Then my other question is, we were worried that it would happen. Getting in and out of Park Terrace was going to be an issue. It is an issue. It is not big enough for those for coming in and out. People have to wait either on two way on Park Street or they have to wait in there because two cars can't turn the corner and get out all at the same time. So I'm wondering, so this Park Street School driveway, and I don't know why that is, is going to be very busy. Is that right? 24 feet wide, which I think is the village stand. For a two way street. For a two way street. OK. Thank you. Just to refresh everybody's memory, how wide is Park Terrace? 19, 19, 19, 19, 19, 19, 19, 19, 19, 19, 19, 19. There are always three. And my last piece of advice is that there are no crosswalks. So it's either five corners or it's all the way down to Rockies. There are no crosswalks. So people coming, going, trying to get across two way to get to their car parked on Park Street on the other side of the street can't get there unless they walk down to five corners. There is one shown in the drawing here. I don't know if that's existing or invaded or it's proposed or what have you, but there is one shown at the corner of Park Street School driveway going across. Not there now. Is it not there now? No. Physically not there. Correct. Has not been there. Has never been there. I can, but in next minute. Crossworks, lights, everything is controlled by what's called the MUTCD. The village does not have control over where they can put them in or when they can put them in. We go to the regional planning commission, we go to VTrans. And they'll do a study to see if they are, if the level of service is there, meets the standard where they can do it. I will say though that when the long road at Connector Road goes in, there'd be a traffic light there and there'd be a crosswalk there again. All I want to say, I hear you rather, I want to say is all of these assumptions make sure they're true. When they're being espoused. So, and this is an issue in lots of places in the villages. It's just one of them. Thank you. Thank you. Derek, did you want to make a comment? Yeah, I was just going to highlight that there's currently a curb cut on the lot that will be removed, which will funnel all the vehicles to one, making that a little safer. Thank you. Yes. Matheum or School Street. I actually do want to say, I've been to a lot of these where I'm complaining miserably about the density that we're pushing in this zone. I really do appreciate that this is within what I would call scale with this area. I agree. It might be a fact that you only have the ability to put 28 lots in, that still one to one apartment to parking lots or parking stop spot seems low. But I appreciate the three stories and I appreciate that the Planning Commission is not pushing them to go hot very frankly. So, thank you. Thank you. Yes, Ann. Hi, Ann Light, Tennis School Street. I think a lot of the concerns I have been brought up before for the development on the corner and the parking is, it seems optimistic that you are going to be doing the same thing that is happening at McGillicuddy's where we have people in apartments who don't always work during the day in our home at night. They have different hours with restaurants that are open. The co-mingling of or sharing, co-sharing of spaces with business and the tenants, doesn't, it seems like there's not enough spaces. I'm wondering, something I'm really concerned about is the creation, the de facto creation of a continuation of the Crescent connector that's gonna go off behind the building here and connect with this other future project, which we have to acknowledge is like the elephant in the room here. But there is going to be a road going to Mr. Handy's senior building that will potentially connect. A lot of trees are gone. There's a lot of the trees that are in the picture are not there anymore. I'm very, very concerned that it's gonna be another way to funnel traffic from this project out the back onto Park Terrace. And right now, Park Terrace, which was extremely dysfunctional before, it's now become the de facto loading area because the loading area was waived for this building. And so we've got loading, it's too narrow, there's no sidewalk. And I think it would be erroneous to not assume that when given the opportunity for folks to go behind and use the driveway for Mr. Handy's building, that that in fact at some point is not gonna connect and just make a really terrible situation on Park Terrace that much worse. And I hope you're just aware of the situation that is going from bad to worse. The commercial signs, I was wondering, you've got in the picture of the facade, there's like the big windows. Will there be commercial signs for the downstairs tenants? There's two tenants, two commercial spaces? Yeah, are there two commercial spaces? There may be two, there may be three. And there is a signage on the building indicating these kinds of properties. And our understanding at this point is whatever we do for signage for any buildings will simply have to meet with the village's standard. We didn't really get into it because we don't know yet, ma'am, what we're going to have. But it'll have to match that. Do the signs, I'm just curious, do signs placed in the windows count as billboard signs or commercial signage? Yes, it does, yeah. So are all those, is all the signs for the commercial buildings at the bottom of on the first floor at Four Park? That's all within the allowed square footage. So all the windows can be filled with signs? No, all the windows, all the windows are not filled. All the existing, it seems like they are. The only one you can't see through is the armored recruiting building and they have special disability. Can we, I just want to make a point, let's please limit our comments to what we're talking about here. Okay, well I'm just wondering where the signs are going to go because it's a very clean solid right now. Right, but we're talking about the project specifically. That's what I just mentioned, okay. I'm wondering where these signs are going to go if they're going to be more signs attached to the building or if people are going to have signs in the windows. The loading area in the back, is there room for loading and unloading and still two-way traffic? That's, there's that. That's been accounted for. Okay. You know, the traffic is really in the parking. That space is going to go away with which is temporary parking now and it's just, there's not enough parking. And so I think you're setting up Park Terrace and the School Street to take more parking than we need. Thank you. Thank you. Robin, did you want to talk just a minute about the traffic in terms of the crossing connector? Studies that are upcoming or have been done just to refresh everybody's memory? Well, the connector road is the traffic, that's much more than parking. There is 26 parking spaces, it's part of the connector road. There's a project that will come in in the future where the developers talking about working with the village provide additional public parking. So it's just, they're all just one piece of it. As you would say, one piece of the bigger chicks are positive. But there's parking for each tenant but there's not parking for the commercial spaces. There is parking for the commercial. There is parking for the commercial. On site. On site, yes. And employees. Yes. Okay. Okay. Does anybody else have any comments or Nick? Just a couple of comments about the landscaping. I think I share some of the concerns on that. I like the greenery out front, but I'm not sure if it works. I'm still a little unclear of the distance from the face of the building to the street and how that is filled in with materials of 10 foot sidewalk, I believe. No, there's 10 foot of their property. 10 foot of public sidewalk plus the village sidewalk. So how many feet is it? 15 feet. 15 feet. So, and do we have a grade elevation happening? We do. There's the, the sidewalk, village sidewalk out here. It's continuous. There are three risers up here, three risers up here. And there is a slope walk here on this side for accessibility. Okay. And I didn't see, are you gonna be using tree grates in there and guards? They were, you were pulling them out from one tree, a genko tree there, we're moving them. And I would think, we're talking about protecting it, having those, those guards and grates would be important. Plus how you plant them. We spent a lot of time on four pearl streets trying have a tree planting that was going to be sustainable by using silver cells, but minimally that, I mean, engineered soil throughout that area to make them last. And I would think because it is kind of our little urban environment that you might wanna continue what I think you should with the guards and the grates. It's hard to discern exactly where the trees are in the sidewalk, you know, just, and don't hold on to that genko. I don't think it's in great shape. And by the time you do all the digging is going to be destroyed. Start again. Frank, Nate, I live at Fort Park Terrace. I am amazed, I was amazed at how well, how much you and I agreed on those comments about the front elevation. You and I are usually very different. But yeah, I know that we have very different opinions. I think it looks great. I think that break like that, it's just something, it's new and it's just, it's nice. I don't wanna sound like I'm beating a dead horse here, but this issue with parking, you guys, the developer of that site should supply the parking lot spots required by the code, period. Not offsite, onsite. It is such a disaster on Park Terrace. And I mean, that parking lot that Gabe has on his property has relieved it a lot, but there's daytime park people parking there, not just nighttime, daytime. And that tells you that the whole thing is overflowing and it was miscalculated in the beginning. Please don't do the same mistake again. Please, it's a train wreck. Sorry. Meredith Connelly, Five School Street. I would like to say I greatly appreciate Mr. Stewart coming to our homes with plans and talking to all the residents. I think that's very neighborly, I greatly appreciate it. I think the building looks great. I think it kind of has a nice blend of traditional, but with a modern flair. I am wondering a couple of things in that green space for the tenants, for those that maybe smokers or have pets or whatever is their place for them to be. With Mr. Handy's project, we're losing kind of a foresty kind of area. And I know part of the comprehensive plan is keeping the tree canopy, but I would like to know if there's some kind of outdoor space for the tenants. I'm not sure it's a covered canopy. So the covered canopy, it actually has a little roof. It's an outdoor space. It's not green, but it's an outdoor space that I would... Doesn't read very well in this perspective, but this is actually a projection out in front of the building. Yeah, so it's a place to gather. You bet if you have smokers, they'll all be staying there and people coming in will have to walk through it and have a smell. It's not where you want smokers. No, I would suggest creating an area for people to be kind of a little more out of view, but able to have their smoke breaks, I guess that's what they choose to do. The other concern is snow removal. Where does the snow go? It's nice to see the fall and green, but we've got like six months of winter, so. It's certainly a challenge. It would be pulled, pushed off, sort of small spaces next to the trash area, it certainly might be a challenge. Do you envision those in parking spaces to snow? I don't think they can afford it, I think they don't know that. Right, so I mean, in reality, though? That's what we've talked off site. I think the owner understands that they have a very limited area to store snow, and if we get heavy snow, they cannot, there's no place to store it on their property, because according to the village plan, which is basically, that you can, my understanding is the idea is to develop really the entire extent of the property. We had to develop the entire extent of the property just to be able to get enough parking to deal with this many units. So that's why the parking is set up the way it is. I do think there is going to be some, if you look at the park, at the road that goes up to the school, there's a lot of green space on the other side of that, that I think that is one place where people will probably go to congregate. And that may also be a place where in the wintertime that there is some snow potential to truck snow over there. But that is the biggest and longest strip of green in the whole area is what's on the south side of the road that goes up to the school. And that stays, I would have to do that. Okay, great, I appreciate all the comments. At this time, I'd like to make a motion for here motion to close the public portion and your second, okay? All in favor? All right, okay. Thank you. Thank you. Do you guys have further comments or questions for that? Comments or questions for Robin? How are we currently treating the parking and then I'm just looking, there's no parking in the other parking and that's a guy, my opinion would be that denser denser buildings are typically trying to show up in places where you hopefully don't show up with a bunch of cars. Folks, please, we still have a meeting going on. Thank you. You're on the bus route, you're walking to the train station and you're on a good bus. So the notion that we actually have to require a whole bunch of cars is hoping to go, we're trying to have less cars, but try to be futuristic. But there's maybe some time period where demand and supply is still out of whack. I don't know how to address that really because we hear it, we understand it, but the goal is to move away from so many cars. Yeah, it's also such as that. People want to park right next to where they're going. If you walk through the village center, it's rare enough people to find a parking space, but it might be 200 yards from where you want to go. So people will use that space. We did a parking study, it's a quick parking study and we produced a plan. The parking space is in the village and a lot of people are not used. So like for Pearl, I guess I feel like the lack of parking is more of a problem for the business owners and people that are in those buildings than it is for others, but I don't want to be. Well, I think it's a problem for everybody but it's a problem for everybody. He may lose business because people kind of park right next to the front door. But as you know, the village is looking at ways to provide more public parking in areas that we can. So is the Park Street School lower section there? I know we've added parking spaces over the years. Yeah, they were added by the school district for the commercial spaces at this site. Right, right. And is that maxed out now? We expect we might be able to add more spaces. Well, not as much as we could. Okay. Or we could require an applicant to provide them with many more spaces. We'd give them an easter. But in all of the projects that we're working on, one space per unit is a part of what we're seeing. We're hoping to stay to that. Right. And the size of the wall. You're trying to develop it, it's just, it's tight. So it was 26 singles and two studio students. So really you're not talking about two or three bedroom units here, you're talking about. One bedroom is mostly in two studios. That's the formula for one car. You're gonna get some that need to, and I don't know how you handle that. I mean, people sold parking spaces separately from apartment units for a while, and it's only been 50 years. Well, that seems dead. So, if you guys don't have any more questions for the applicants, what we should do is approve a conceptual plan or offer an improvement. I mean, unless you guys have other questions. Discussion topics, that kind of thing. I mean, as far as I am concerned, it's, you know, as far as a conceptual plan, it's great. You know, it's got a few things to work out, but what do you think? Yeah, I'm fine with that. Okay. So do I hear a motion to, actually, do we have anything we want to add to the, or at this point, it's not that.  Right. In the staff report, what do you want us to, I mean, because it's just a conceptual plan. Yeah, but it also gives direction. Right. So the same, if you feel it's appropriate. So do I hear a motion? I move that we approve the conceptual plan with the stipulations as proposed in the staff report. Do I hear a second? Call of favor? Aye. I'll post. So moved. Okay. Thank you very much. Thank you. Okay, so. Before we adjourn, we're going to make sure that we mourn. Right? We need to make sure that we mourn a meeting. So we need to mourn a meeting for two weeks. That's my excuse. Robin, we're firing out the, so we're going to mourn a meeting for two weeks from now. We're going to mourn a meeting for two weeks from now. Well, solely for the, we're going to run a run of Linux. So it's a cleaner just. Okay. I would suggest also you getting together with him before that so that when we. Well, I think the really that we saw at the last meeting is your medical improvement from the last one. So I'm not sure how stretch friends are going to move in terms of that one. They're all missing the report. Yeah. Yeah. So I'm going to mourn that meeting. Yeah. Sorry. I'll interrupt you. I think we should also make sure that we receive some common trust with trustees and specifically the merits of design five corners as they may weigh in against the other aspects of this that we're looking at like the Park Street school, you list up to it. Well, we're. So I just want to make sure that we all have the same understanding. You'll have a lot of opportunity because we get the grant from the RPC and it looks about the two. I need it before two weeks. I need some. I need information before two weeks. What information? If you just call me. I just want to hear from the trustees. I want to hear from. What do you want to hear from the trustees, sir? Sorry, I was telling you. See that? Uh-huh. There are things in here that are somewhat that are weighted differently about how we as a community should be handling this region of the village and I want to make sure we all get that before we weigh into our another design issue. Okay. Okay. Take that. Uh, and you know, we do want to take into consideration some of the comments tonight in terms of work sessions. I know that, you know, a good example of something that we might want to see if Robin can get together with some other folks and maybe do a presentation of, you know, parking is always a discussion, right? So what does the future of parking look like in the village with all the development going on?  We could be, you know, I think we can take an opportunity over, I mean, I know we're going to come up against the holidays all of a sudden and I can't believe I'm saying that, but, you know, just to get you guys thinking that we should just try to sit down more often and do this. Okay? All right. Anybody else have anything? I hear a motion to adjourn. Second. All in favor? Aye. Thank you. So I'm not quite sure about what you're looking for for the next meeting.