Good morning, everyone. This is the House Agriculture and Forestry Committee, Representative Carolyn Partridge. It is just after 9 a.m. on April 7th, 2021. And thank you all for joining us. And this morning, we're going to have an update from Ellen Kaler regarding food security. In particular, the regional food system supply chain. And to see if there are any updates. And so, Ellen, if you would like to take it away, I'm hoping you have something to tell us. And this is one of the more exciting things for me in terms of the future of our committee and the future of agriculture is to crack this nut. So take it away. Thanks. Well, thank you very much. Nice to see you all again. And I'll be seeing you tomorrow too, as we, Louise Calderwood and Regina Fiedler and President Pat Bolton will be in with you and Senate Ag committees to talk about Vermont Tech's egg and food system program transformation. So, it's a little feast or famine like we were here a lot in February and then it's been what a month and a half and here I am again to see you all so nice to see you. Yeah, in terms of an update. We have since you all were part of that presentation that we made back in February to the legislative body of your peers. So, I'm happy to answer questions additional questions that maybe have arisen for you since then. Basically, what I can tell you is that we have made some very good progress we hired a part time staff person who's actually going to go up to full time next this coming Monday with the funding that we've raised to date. And she's been tremendous addition to the team, supporting this project new England feeding new England project, which is, again as reminder, especially for those who may not know about it, it is a six state initiative to try to increase the reliability of our food supply chain within the region. And to do that to expand production of regionally produced food, whether that's harvested, you know, grown, raised caught in our fisheries, so that 30% of the food that we consume within the six state region is is comes from and is produced from within this region. Now you may have remembered that I originally talked about 35 by 35. Our group has since changed that as of yesterday to 30 by 30. And the reason primarily is because there are so many 30 by 30 initiatives that we didn't want to be confused. So, we thought that it would be better to be in alignment with everybody else is doing which is 30 by 30 we know how pivotal this decade is. So, it's, it's, it's still in line with 35 by 35 but it's a little bit near in which increases the pressure quite frankly in terms of reaching that we know here in Vermont, that we're somewhere around probably about 15%. We'll know more later this year exactly but as of a few years ago anyways it was close to 15%. That was Vermont consumption of Vermont produced food. So to get to 30%, even in Vermont is a big lift, let alone across the entire six state region. So, so we are underway with the project and having a full time staff person now is going to help that process a lot because a lot of what is going to be involved over the next year and a half in particular is research, researching and developing milestones for each of the six states in terms of what could be produced in those states, given available land, given available fish stocks, given workforce given infrastructure needs given soil types, like what can we actually get to 30%. And that's one of the big questions. You know, we have this as a as an aspiration to get to 30%, but until we actually crunch the numbers and really start talking with producer groups to see what they think the market is is signaling and until we get more consumers actually requesting regionally produced food, it's going to be a big lift. There is no way around it. But I think that the energy and is there to try. And I think that there's obviously with this past year of COVID we've all had a real wake up about just the fragility of some aspects of the food supply chain in this country and the opportunities that this presents for rural economic development for profitability and viability of our farms and food businesses and our and our fishers in the region. I think there's, it's really time to double down. So I think in terms of ways that that you all can continue to support this effort. It's, it's pretty straightforward, invest, invest, invest, and, and, and do what you can do to help clear away bottlenecks that have been identified in the food supply chains in Vermont. And so investments in working lands enterprise fund working any other kinds of low cost or grant related programs for food related businesses and farms are really critical. You know the the because we need to not only do we need to expand production but we also need to expand processing facilities, especially neat processing facilities. We need to expand our distribution system. We need to expand the ability of food and Vermont food ambassadors to actually rep products into into regional markets to get more of our products out both regionally as well as in stores here in Vermont. We need to be investing in more storage capacity, more warehousing more cross docking operations, just overall things that just physically help to move food, especially from small producers who have less access and and it's a higher cost for them. So getting more lower cost options for smart distribution is definitely going to be needed and I think that keeping an eye on those kinds of things as you review bills, as you consider funding opportunities is going to be really critical. I would say for for you all to be really keeping an eye on it and really trying to move.  Thanks Carolyn, Ellen I didn't mean to cut into your introduction but just as you blew by the 3030 I wondered, is there any reliable data for what those six states are doing now like Vermont's doing 15 what's New England doing. But there is not reliable in the form of the methodology that we've developed and that we implement every three years here in Vermont. But that part of the research that is about to get underway is in fact to try to establish what that baseline is. What might not be as robust is our baseline in Vermont because we have access. We have so many partners who are willing to provide the data, you know, like the hospitals give us their data, the Sodexo give us their data we get it from individual producers like Ben and Jerry's and Cabot, for instance, because a lot of them are going direct to consumer or direct to an institution and may not be picked up through the distributor data that we get. You know, we get, we get we in the past we've gotten one of the three chains, a regional grocery store chains to provide their data. Most of the distributors give us the data so like that just does not exist in the other states, unfortunately. So we're going to do the best we can, but yes the plan is to create that baseline because then we need to be tracking the progress over the next 10, 15, 20 years about how we're doing with that and figure out the method for how we're going to do that, given the realities of every state being, you know, different and much more populated than us. And so we just, we have a harder time reaching a critical mass of folks that will share data. Do you have you heard any ballparks for where New England is right now? I mean, is it like 2% I said 8% I've heard people kick around 10%. I don't know how real that is yet I'm not I'm not a data cruncher researcher type but that's what I've heard from some folks that have looked into the into the numbers. I think that one of the big questions, and you may recall that slide I had of the three circles of the what we produce in Vermont and that are in New England and then what gets imported and what gets exported. And one of the things that we don't really know is of what is produced, what actually stays here. And that's like one of the hardest things I think for us to really get a handle on because it, it's just moving all over the place. So, so that's one of the things we'll be working on. So we're in the process right now of setting up a research advisory committee across the six states that are people that really understand data understand what we're trying to do. We will be setting up contracts with and developing an actual research team from across the region of experts that really know how to understand the data sets that are available to really try to dig into this and come up with the baselines and help us also assess consumer demand. So we're going to be looking at primarily secondary research where there's been consumer demand analysis done across the region because you know you got to have both supply and demand together. So we're going to be digging in. I don't think we're going to have real strong sense for probably nine months to a year, once we really get underway because just it's just so much to look at. But that shouldn't stop the work in any way shape or form. I mean, the bottom line is, as I mentioned it's invest invest invest and, and not just grant dollars and low interest loans but then the other core piece key piece is investing in the infrastructure of our business and technical assistance provider community, because we have seen through this pandemic as I'm sure you've heard over and over again. The real need for better business acumen among not only farms but also food businesses across the entire supply chain and not just in ag and food but also in forest products. So we really need to make I think a significant investment in the people infrastructure that work with business owners to improve their businesses because we know that when they improve the profitability of their businesses they tend to pay better wages and they can afford benefits. They can afford better technology. They can afford the ability to have better practices for food production, whether that's on the farm or in our manufacturing facilities. They just they have more funds available for marketing. You know, it's sort of like so much of this really does rest on the business acumen of that the head of business, the head of the farm and whether they really have things dialed in the way they could. And, you know, people on the ground are some of the more expensive and ongoing needs but like we have just not invested in the people power infrastructure in our state I mean it's amazing what's been built up on so little. And as we said in the in the strategic plan, you know we identified another 40 plus people full time equivalents that we need on the ground working on a variety of ways with our farm and food manufacturers. Thanks Ellen. Does that answer your question john. Yeah. Yeah, I've got a couple more about Ricky Ricky Scott. Okay, go ahead, Ricky. This is also a follow up I think on what john got us talking about Ellen, and for the first couple years here that I've been on the committee we talked a lot about getting our products out. You know, to all these cool markets Boston, New York, Philadelphia, all these cities were surrounded by helping our farmers to get the profitability of the Vermont brand. So, how do we do both. How do we take care of ourselves, you know, to produce for ourselves and increase the Vermont brand and get our products out so I'm sure you've been thinking of this as well. But I, I, I think it's vital we continue on with, with what we can grow here and in our region but also the way we want to sell ourselves out there so I don't know if you have any comments on that. It's a really important question. Thank you for asking it. It is a both and a lot of that has to do with scale. So we always talk about, there's a triangle that exists between the, the stage of the business's development, the scale of their operation, and then the kind of market outlet that they want to get into. So if you're, if you're a really early stage business, and you're very small scale, the likelihood that you're going to be able to reach and supply a Boston market is pretty much nil. Right. So what, what are the right market outlets for you as you start and group to grow your farm or grow your food business, and you are going from say small to Vermont small to Vermont medium. Not for instance, right, you can go from direct market, a lot of people start with direct market sales for that very reason, because the price point is better for them, they can, they don't have any middle people to be paying. So farmers market CSAs farm stands, your local co ops, those kinds of places are great for being able to start off and build, but then as you grow or if you're a farmer or food business that has aspirations of eventually selling into more regional wholesale markets, then, you know, you need different forms of capital, you need more workers, you need, you get into more permitting issues because you're in a manufacturing environment. You need to have access to distribution, you need to access to those markets. And so it brings in then a level of complexity. And it also lowers your, your, your price point because there's just a lot more costs associated with being able to produce at scale. So you need that volume to offset that. So all of those things are, are part of why, you know, it's it is really important to invest, I think, in the business and technical assistance provider community that works with these farms and food businesses to really assess that. Now, where do you, where do you want to sell? Okay, you want to start selling into regional markets? Well, what are your options? Maybe you should start with selling through farmers to you, which, you know, pays a decent price to the producers. And then they're the ones that are is delivering the food down to the Boston families as a for instance. And from there, maybe you learn more and then you can think about, oh, okay, well, maybe I should see about getting into, say, the Hanifords chain or something like that. So how do I do that? And there's just a lot of learning that that needs to happen on that side of things. And not just, you know, flipping the switch to say, okay, we're gonna just all start selling things using the Vermont brand and selling regionally, because it depends on your scale, it depends on what you want to do, who you want to sell to. So that's where this both and comes in, is I guess how I would answer your question. It's sort of, it depends on who wants to do what. And that's part of what we need to suss out here is, as we do this, the sort of the number side of the project, the New England Feeding New England project. We also need to be betting that with all the producer associations and all of the private sector actors to say, what do you think, like, is this even doable? Do you want to do this? What would it take to do this? How much additional capital, you know, what else from an infrastructure standpoint would be needed? We've never really gotten into that level of asking and exploring from an intentionality perspective of actually intentionally developing things in that way. And so we're gonna, we'll see how it goes. I don't know if that answers your question, Representative Strong, but that's how I'd think about it is it's really is a both hand and it's working with folks to really figure out where do they want to sell and in what way and what do they need if they want to grow and to expand beyond the borders. And what comes to my mind also is we should be so lucky, you know. I think, you know, our goal before the pandemic hit was to get as much Vermont produced product out into those metropolitan areas, and just to increase everybody's markets here. But then the pandemic hit and we started asking ourselves, you know, when, when there was no chicken on the, in the food, the grocery, the big grocery stores and, and no pasta and, you know, who you know it looked like post war Russia, you know, or the Soviet block when you see these empty shelves is like, oh my word, we've never seen this before. I think it was actually a really good wake up call for us that, you know, the system is as your map of the US indicates our system is really fragile. And, you know, one bad situation in a certain part of the country can have a real impact on all all sorts of places around the state so. So that's, I don't know, maybe, maybe you all were thinking about this before Ellen before the pandemic hit but it seems like that was a real wake up call for us regarding our food. I don't know if you want to come in. Go ahead. I just say on that final point is, is you know, and I think the other way that it's both and is that we've seen this right over time. Some producers do do both, like they have strong local markets, and they have some percentage of what they produce that they sell into the region. So that's another avenue to really explore. Yeah. Now I saw Tom's hand up Tom did you get your answers, your question answered. Sort of in which he answered representative Strong's question you kind of touched on I think and let me ask it. When I walk through the large supermarkets on you walk through the frozen food section, and you see tons of green giant birds eye and I mean you see these they have amazing processing ability and distribution ability. And we, is there anybody in New England that can, they could even think about doing that kind of that kind of work, processing huge amounts of beans, corn, peas, whatever the freezing canning. Is there anybody in New England that does that. I have a question I don't know the answer and that's part of what we want to look at we want to actually do some sort of asset mapping of a sort of trying to identify who it has capacity at scale to be doing this kind of thing. What comes to mind is, as like, where, where there is probably something equivalent to what you're saying is going to be an up in northern Maine with potatoes, right because the potato producers up there are producing for McCain and all right and different national and Canadian brands. What I don't know is whether those potatoes are just being shipped across the border and processed in Canada, or whether there's actually some processing happening over the main I just don't know enough yet. I'm looking forward to finding out because I really don't know right now. Just to add to that, I read a while ago, and I talked about this shoe as the director of the main farms kind of began to know him, the main university main farm, and he has a guy who works with a lot who's got, I think he said a thousand acres or 1200 acres of broccoli up there. And he is grows various kinds for some reason I didn't know there were so many kinds, but he has the processing. He cleans and bags that ships it right from his farm, and I was kind of amazed by that has got to be a huge volume and you know certain times of the year. But I don't know how you how you do that it was amazing. You know, and I think you raise a really good point around the acreage you know it's one of the other key aspects here is protecting our finite and valuable farmland in the state from development, we need to keep that Agnan in production. And, and especially as generations change hands with that land to find create additional creative ways to really ensure that that finite resource stays in agricultural production because we need that land to grow on. So, you know, up in up in northern Maine there was the county they have large wide open tracks, and you know 1000 2000 acre farms that are in vegetable production. We, you know, we have a number of those kinds of farms here in Vermont, but they are for primarily dairy for and they're in hay and corn and such for feed for for the dairy industry. So, while that's important to have that feed come from here to feed the animals that we have here, because then we're not importing more phosphorus work, we're growing the feed here. If though that any of those very large tracks come on are going to not change hands to another dairy operation. You know, we all are very concerned about what's going to happen to that 1000 acres and in some cases it goes to another dairy farm and and they are really bad animals and expand their their feed sources. So it stays in production in that way. But when, you know, two or 200 or 250 acre parcel comes open that could actually be a vegetable production, like the way that Pete screens operates at, how do we help manage how do we help that to happen more, because we know we need greater vegetable production, and we can do it in the state, you know, there's plenty of really amazing growers who struggle to find land at scale for their aspirations. Especially land that's together, you know, like I know, like burnt rock farm in the Huntington area, you know, Justin is primarily supplying for regional or for for wholesale markets sells into healthy living and the co ops and everything he's organic farmer. But, you know, every time he wants to expand beyond his six acre home farm, he's got to go find and compete against other interested farmers to get like another few acres here and then down the road and a few acres there and then down the road other two acres there and that's not, that's not efficient, right, we need these larger tracks to stay in place in whole pieces, so that they can be a farm more efficiently. So you're part of the concern. Oh, go finish your thought Ellen. No, no, no, I'm done. I apologize because I you were you were starting and I. No, no, no, no, no, I know it's that there's a lag here with zoom so I don't want to cut you off at all. But I will say that this was part of the concern. You know, as farmers were being vilified for the pollution in Lake Champlain.  It's all our land for development, you know, which we know is even worse it's multiple times worse in terms of phosphorus pollution. In terms of the lake so I think that the more we can encourage people to a stay in farming. In some form or other but you know you can bro you can grow brassica vegetables here very easily. And, you know, so there I think there's a good fit for if, you know, if people who are involved in dairy want to get out there are ways that we can make this happen. It's just a matter of how. So, I think that one of the other, the other opportunities is that we're currently exploring through the. There's some research going on through farm to plate right now that the Community Foundation helped to fund, which is. We stood up. We reconstituted a meat supply chain task force within the farm to plate network. And we have some research going on right now by a fellow who's got deep connections in the beef industry and used to work at the the intervail as a farm farm advisor. And he's exploring wagyu hosting and wagyu and other types of dairy milking herd crosses breed crosses with the idea that to you might lose a little bit in actual output on the dairy on the fluid milk side, you might be able to gain by having a higher quality beef animal when that when it's time for that animal to be cold and so looking at genetics looking at additional grazing opportunities and then looking at how to better facilitate the the and enable the sort of the quality of the what becomes the dairy beef animals to get a higher price in the market as a way of supporting the dairy industry's struggle to make it just on fluid milk alone is something that's also being explored right now and I think has some some great potential and I was talking recently with Heather Darby from UVM extension, if you haven't had her in lately to talk about some of what she's learning from the research looking at grass converting some of the conventional dairy over to at least some amount of grass grazing is some amount of grazing. She's finding some pretty significant results to her research in terms of improved components of the milk and milk quality as well as then the price being paid to farmers for that milk and so there's some really interesting results coming out of some of her field trials and and working with farms up in Franklin County so if you haven't had her in lately to talk about that I would encourage you to do that because it sounded pretty exciting. Okay, I'll put her on the list. John, go ahead. John, this whole subject just makes my mind explode with with question when you started thinking about food, and then regional food, you know, just working from the top down I'm thinking about education and cultural choices so you know what percentage of Vermont, you know, buys its food at say the big supermarkets or Walmart or Dollar General, and then you work down to that like like Tom saying the aisles in those stores, and you're thinking, you know, what percentage of shopping carts are full with with your Michael Paul like processed food, not, you know, celery but cheese that's and then, you know, you think like okay, in order to somehow increase our you know what we eat locally. It just seems like there's a lot of education or at least the alternatives have to be there and you know it took a COVID crisis for us all to be like well we can go to the CSA or we can go you know something more locally just because hey that was the only option or be, you know, we can, we can actually, I mean we'll try something different. So, you know, where is that all coming to this conversation. That's a really good question and and and really really important part of this you know it is supply and demand and and then you add in the desire and real need also be growing and raising and producing culturally appropriate foods for our increasingly diverse population in Vermont but also New England, and then you add that out on his complexity on the supply side as well as how do you get markets to actually bring those culturally appropriate foods in so that that consumers can actually can actually buy them. Right, because we know that for some stuff there is definitely a demand and it's like you can't get it. So, you know, I think that that is going to be a key part of this and why it's, it's a heavy lift, right, it's like we could the easy in some ways the easy part is going to be crunching the numbers on the production side, right, as as complex and complicated as that is to figure out how to do that's the easy part the hard part is going to be not only figuring out how we would scale production but then how do we also have the level of consumer awareness and consumer demand signals that then allow for everything to start to sync up in the marketplace. So, yeah, I mean that's where I think we've got a huge advantage through farm to school all these years I mean it's training the next generation of eaters, but beyond that there's still a lot that can be done to talk about the importance of healthy local food choices. And then of course we have the access issues because not everybody can afford what it costs to produce a lot of the food that we produce in this region and so how do we how do we manage and navigate that as well. So, I don't have any answers for you. I have just as many questions. And, but I think, I think we're in a better position and then we were say 10 years ago understanding the complexity and the, and then coven has provided the real impetus to like get going on this, you know to really like step it up and and be able to try to tackle this. Yeah, on a nuts and bolts question then, you know, if we look at working lands. We've got a governor's base budget around half a million and all of a sudden, there may be this one time 5 million so have you been in discussions like, Okay, this isn't going to happen every year where where do we really invest this this, you know multiplier of 10 and just what you're talking about. And I think that it's not for a lack of an agency's part to have a higher budget I think they have felt constrained. And so I think that's where you all come in as well is to not only think about the importance and the imperative of a higher working lands enterprise fund allocation every year, when you get into session, but to be also having the conversations outside a session, because I think, I think we can all be united in understanding the opportunity from an economic development standpoint and the imperative from a food supply perspective. And I think this, this could be one of those areas where like you just to we not needed to stop jacking around and just like, this is what we need to do. And there's, and we know what the benefits are. So let's, let's just do this. Yeah, I think one of the, one of the benefits to all this is that working lands has been such an incredibly successful program that when we go to appropriations, it's, it, it sort of sells itself, you know, I don't even feel like I have to make a full pitched effort just because people really recognize what a great program this has been. It's affected all 14 counties, you know, people just really see the value in that program.  Yeah, John really touched upon all of my points to in that educational component and, and really making sure that folks understand seasonal, and what that even means of what's available but also, I'm thinking about the cultural shift that needs to happen in terms of consumption and I think that we do play a role in that as you were saying it's that investment and if they're seeing that we're investing in these areas then I think that that is what is going to have that cultural shift but we're saying is important has importance is what's going to alter that. And I think that that is a really critical point to lay home on that. Yeah, totally agree and you know one of the exciting things that happened within this last year and a half is through the health cross cutting team within front plate network is Suzanne Kelly from the health department has been active, you know, for the whole life of the front plate network. And she does a lot of work with communities and trying to get more healthy food into grocery stores and convenience stores and other places. And they were able to get into the state's health improvement plan. A year and a half ago, a desire to have to really work at increasing healthy local food consumption and have indicate have cited the health cross cutting team as their sort of go to advisors for that particular part of the health improvement plan. So, I think they're the health departments on board. And, and I just think that it'll be interesting to see how once we get the, the, the direness of the COVID pandemic, how we can sort of get back on track and really, they'll be able to help me to push on their end of things but I think there's a real awareness of food is medicine kind of ideas are really, really taking hold much more so and much more understood now than they were, you know, even five years ago. You know, the whole veggie prescription program of getting allowing doctors and such to prescribe produce part of your diet, because of your chronic diseases like the that's that that's totally transformational that that you know is not going on five six years ago. Yeah. You know, and this is just kind of a strange observation that I'll make here. Because of the pandemic. I typically shop at Hanford and you know, we raise basically all of our own meat. I had a disastrous broccoli crop this year it was horrible. I don't even I think we ate one broccoli head during the summer but I have beans and what have you. So I do. So when I shop. I'm basically going around the outside, you know, and, and yeah I duck in there to get paper towels and toilet paper and stuff like that but, but what's been really astounding for me is because of the arrows, it forces you go to go down aisles you might not typically go down. And there is an amazing amount of per, you know, like food that I would not think about. And I'm not making any judgments on people who do but just these products that, you know, all you have to do is add water and you have dinner that sort of thing. And I think about the education that needs to happen in terms of the folks that may rely on those products. We've talked about this before and and the fact that people don't necessarily even know how to, you know, peel a carrot or something but I do you have any thoughts about that Ellen you know what it will take to potentially get people to the point where they might be able to do a little bit more in the kitchen. Well I think a lot of that has happened during the pandemic out of necessity right I mean we've been hearing that pretty consistently people doing more cooking because they're not able to go out to this out to restaurants and stuff like they used to. We're still seeing very strong interest through a route in Vermont campaign of, you know, folk Vermonters that hunt and fish and forage you know this is ramp season now and and foraging for mushrooms and and all sorts of interesting things that people are doing because out of necessity. And they're finding like the value that the real you know it tastes good and and so I think one of the questions is going to be how how sticky is the is what we've learned over this passion you're going to be going forward in terms of people's behavior and such. So, you know, I think it's still, I think it's still too early to know that but I think the other thing that I think that a lot of we consumers don't think of as a to do item is we can put pressure on grocery stores to have different types of products. Right, we don't have to just accept what it is that they put on the shelves. I think if more of us really spoke to the, you know, sent in comments or dropped off comments and said how come I can't find local parents or how come I can't find, you know, local potatoes all year round when we when we actually have storage capacity to storage ability to do things like that. You know, I think supermarkets are going to, you know, they want to serve their customers and, you know, their mindset is how do I get the largest amount of regular like totally predictable quantities from wherever I can get it at the lowest price to put on the shelves. And with the greatest variety, right, that's like, that's where they're coming from.  The smaller stores. You know, the aging New England bought Mike almost five stores a couple of years ago. And if you go to those stores like Richmond Market in Richmond or Village Market and Waterbury or the Jericho market they built up in Jericho under hill area. They they've done a phenomenal job of sourcing local meat. They have a whole range they have stuff that they're getting from all over the country but they also have a very strong section of local meat, and I have to believe that they wouldn't keep doing that if there weren't sales. So yeah, this is where the sort of buying power and the intentionality of consumers come in and I think we could be doing more on that front. Yeah, and I think farm to school is actually you may not be able to change adults, you know, in terms of their way of being but I think the more we can deal with children and teaching children how to cook. I taught all of my boys to cook so they they are now sometimes the major cookers in their families. But I, you know, here in Wyndham it's such a small town. But we are, we are so and we've never applied for a farm to school grant because we are small and we also have this incredible resource of meadows be farm, where the kids. I think that has developed this badge program where kids learn fermentation. I mean it's just this whole range of badges and it's sort of like Girl Scouts or Boy Scouts. They're doing an amazing job and while some families don't necessarily see the value in it. Because they thought it was just forming, you know, I think it also teaches responsibilities they learn how to do the chores, you know, they learn this whole spectrum of things, and as well as learn how you know where food comes from, and actually how to cook it.  Thank you and I think on one note like processed foods are cheap. And so you have that financial element to consider and then also there's the convenience of that and if we remember when we had some of the farmers on especially Suzanne long who was talking about investing in infrastructure that's community kitchen based where farmers do you have a place that they can send all of their surplus food and then not only are we just having the food available for folks to come pick up but we're actually cooking with it and it's creating a place where folks can come and pick up something that is convenient and easy and fresh but equally focusing on that local element because you know there is that lack of education about knowing how to use certain vegetables but also sometimes people just like we're in a very capitalist productivity society and you don't have time right like I'm a farmer. I hardly have time to cook with the things that I'm making and more often than not I'm reaching for that box of pasta and I'm ashamed of myself when I do but it's like, I know thank you Caroline but it's like, we do need sometimes folks to sometimes prepare things for us and investing in that infrastructure I think is part of that scale that we can do in Vermont and it is an important part. Yeah, I know I certainly didn't mean to cast dispersions I to use store bought pasta trust me, I made pasta from scratch. What a lot of work. Anyway, and I'm not, I like I said I'm not trying to assign blame here. It's more, you know, how can we tune people into, you know, fresh vegetables and how wonderful that is and, and figure out a way to get them to folks. John, go ahead. Like true confessions here. You know, I'll make homemade pasta. If they gave cultures and cultural change. Not, I can see not only does it have to happen at the consumer level but but Ellen, this, I'm sure comes into it at like the CSG level and this six, six states combined where there'd be some, some weight to it is that there needs to be. There's going to be some change at the corporate cultural level because that if this program was successful, you're going to run right into making Mondele's and Dolan Unilever Proctor and Gamble, you know, all those big corporations which fill all those aisles with their money, they're not going to be very happy about this and so it at some point it'd be great if they actually worked with a program like this, and didn't fight it but I could I could see they're not going to be very happy about losing market shares and all those MBAs are going to figure out, you know, how do we essentially crush crush New England's little project. Absolutely right and it is a real risk. I mean, you know, we're that and that has been a strategy, right, the way because local food has taken market share from large multinational food corporations in the last 1520 years. And our strategy has been to buy up small local or regional brands for that attribute. And so we don't have any illusions that that will continue to happen, which is why we also really need to be investing in the profitability of these companies so that they have, they have the opportunity to stick around. I mean, there's always the possibility that, you know, obviously, there are going to be business owners that get into it because they want to, they're serial entrepreneurs they want to they want to grow something then they want to sell it that you know that's But for those that actually want to be able to stay here and really invest the long moment their business and grow it within the region and be able to actually compete in the region. Then, you know, we do need to think about how are we prioritizing and investing as a region to enable that and to have strong succession planning infrastructure like in people power to work with these business owners to understand the various ways in which you can sell your food when it's time and and thinking through the different ownership structures so that we can try to increase the likelihood of those of those businesses once they change hands of actually staying owned from within the region. You know, I mean, for my coffee company right just sold just announced sold to Stonewall kitchen. And you know that's a that's an entity out of Maine, they but they they are national they have national distribution outlets. And so the part of the reason that Jerry sold to you a lever was because they needed national distribution outlets. So that's why it's like, you know, that's where when I say we got to invest in all parts of the supply chain. That's why, right, we can't just invest only in farms and food businesses, developing, and then not also invest in in processing and distribution infrastructure because because then those that that actually are the primary producers get to a certain scale potentially and they don't have any options for distribution. And then then the then they have no choice but to look for larger buyers and larger just before that distribution access because of the way the grocery market has evolved over the last 50 years.  This is the system we have now is has been 50 years in the making with intentional national policy to grow it and to move people out of food production and out of farming into other industries, right, so that there's fewer fewer people producing all the food we all eat so that there's more people available for other types of jobs. And so, you know, if there is a societal reckoning here we're at a point where we have to say did we go too far. I think we have, but that's a societal level question, you know, existential question. What, what, what have we lost because of the production style that that that has evolved over the last 50 years and what, what do we what do we want it to be in the 50 years going forward how what kinds of changes could we be putting in place now that sets us up and our kids and grandkids and great grandkids for a different type of food system. That is more equitable that is more locally owned or regionally owned that is more place based, and that is profitable for those who are for in the business of it. How do we structure things. How do we structure our, our government systems are regulations are infrastructure to enable that, as opposed to what has been the case which is just this cheap food policy. It's a large scale production at any cost to the environments and externalities and those kinds of things. Now when I was thinking that the real model for what we're after here is the beer aisle at supermarkets because there's a place where New England really does have market penetration, and you have a ton of local choices, but then I go down you know the diaper aisle I don't get to, to choose, you know, 30% New England diapers for my lambs here, or, or, you know, cheese it's and Doritos it's not like that's an option like I want to buy new England cheese it's Doritos how does that happen. You got to get somebody to make them. Henry. Hi there. Can you guys hear me all right. Yes, I'm on a different device. Okay, and I had still dead. My iPad is totally dead. And I apologize for having my video off I we've gone to remote learning for my kids so they're running around here. Like John, this raises so many questions. But on that last topic, Ellen, are there any examples that you guys have looked at maybe even more countries than states as far as who's doing doing that really well as far as looking at local and using food and and not using the the model that we've we've so well adopted here in in America is there other examples that and information out there of places that do this well that you guys have looked at at all or that we could maybe look into more. That's a good really good question and no we haven't. I what comes to mind though is just how the Western European countries do it you know where it's much more place based there's much more regulation that supports local producers and protects those products, whether there was a terroir element to it, or not. You know it was interesting I was listening to the. I'm not a big podcast listener anything but I recently sort of stumbled across the as recline show and he does a produce publishes articles in the New York Times but he publishes it as a first as a podcast. You know, he had I forget the person that he had on but it was Mark bitman that he had he was interviewing Mark bitman and Mark bitman I guess has a new book out, really looking at the history of food and through the ages and sort of the key decision points that we've made. And he was one of the only people that I've listened to recently that that hearkened back to the decision points made during the so called green revolution in the early 60s. And if you don't know about that era that was a big era where international and many of it was us based food companies were looking for less expensive inputs. And so they sort of sold this sort of and they were looking for markets for like our tractors and our seeds and ours fertilizers and such. And so they were, they were supported through federal policy to go out to other countries developing countries like in Africa and South America and Central America, for instance, and to export our way of producing food at the same time that we were standing up this narrative of it's the job of the United States to feed the world like our farmers feed the world. Those narratives really have set the whole world on a course of the way that the global food marketplace works and the futures markets and like all of that. And what we've seen is the devastating consequences where you used to have countries in Africa and South and Central America, where they would go through periods of famine, but they basically could feed themselves. They weren't having mass starvation going on that the way they do now because their markets now are completely export oriented. They're they're monocropping everything and selling into the export market, because they were told, and they were incentive eyes or they were purchased by these large corporate entities that that said this is the way that we have to do that. And so it's not just a US or a Vermont or a New England reckoning of our food policy. It's a global reckoning. And I think what you're seeing coming out of I was just an interesting article just a couple of days ago about Singapore. They've just created a policy of getting to 30% Singaporean food by 2030 to something like 90% of all the food they eat is imported as you know as a in essence an island nation. And so they set a target of 30 by 30.  So I think this is like this pivotal decade to like have these conversations to really think about what we want, you know, and then how we set up the policies the regulatory environment, the investments, the public, the national public policy to incent that and really be climate smart climate friendly, you know, the way that President Biden's talking about. And Secretary Nilsak are talking about like we need to really need to do this in a climate smart way. And then of course in the United States there's also the racial reckoning there's the reality of the way that so many so much land was not only stolen from native peoples but also stolen from African Americans that had land back after post civil war that over the succeeding decades was was taken away, and they lost that land and so what are we going to do about that. How do we get more people of color on land that being able to access loans that anybody else can access any white person can access and be able to have an actual opportunity to succeed. So, I don't have the answers it's like this it's just this big huge conundrum, you know it's just so complex but I think we have a real we're at that one of those pivotal moments that that Mark Bittman talked about where we have some real choices to make. And so you all are key to that process. And I always like to think of conundrums and challenges as opportunities. Did you. So is that I recline. Ezra. Okay. It was a fascinating podcast. It makes me want to get his book because because he does talk about these historical junctures where we made these choices. And that's the that's the point here. They are choices. Right. And you all as legislators are part of helping to make choices about where to invest, what to regulate or not. And what narrative is put out there about the kind of food system that that we want in the state as well as this region and country. Yeah, yeah. You know, it was very hard to watch and I can't say that I watched all of it because it was so difficult but Henry Lewis Gates, who is a Harvard professor and does finding your roots the genealogy program on PBS. He did a show on reconstruction, which is everybody I probably knows is that period after the Civil War. When slaves were freed, but they were kind of stuck, you know, and, and some of the things that happened at that time and it was, it was really, it was, as I said it was very hard to watch because they weren't treated well. And, and, you know, in some cases they were able to acquire land. But then as you said, it was basically taken from them. You know, folks with a lot of power would, would basically force them to sign the land over so I think if anybody wanted to learn a little bit more about that time and, and, and, you know, as we talk about the origins for BIPOC community, you should probably put that on your viewing list to have a greater understanding. Any other questions Ellen continue we've sort of taken you off on a tangent but I love having this conversation I think it's so valuable. I appreciate the opportunity you guys asked really great questions and you're doing important work and so we're just, you know, we're in this in between phase, where we don't have a lot to ask you to do because we're, you know, besides reading the plan and figuring out what you might want to work on. I think, you know, we'll all be in a better place to launch into next session because, you know, you'll have some had some time with the plan will be hopefully standing up some kind of a policy force within the front of plate network to start thinking about annually how we could be providing some greater sense of prioritization around policy initiatives. I think you probably know I got selected by the governor to be on the governor's commission on the future of agriculture and so I think, you know, the intention is is that that body will provide a series of recommendations to the governor for consideration to advance in time for the next session. So, I think, I think there'll be a lot more opportunity for you all to like really dig in deeper. Next session, this is a good foundation setting session to really come up to speed on all the latest background and to have a conversation and sort of current trends and, and those kinds of things. So I would just encourage you to, you know, when you're when you're off the summer now that we're going to be able to get out and about like go visit your local farms more and go talk go go ask for a tour of a food center in your county, you know, like, use the summer and fall to get out and learn since you're not enough for reelection this year this is your, this is your great window to get out and just ask a lot of questions and, you know, go get a tour and go to a meat processing facility if you can stomach it and, you know, or go up to the food venture center someday when they're going to be processing vegetables for for institutional, you know, storage of institutional markets for instance and seeing what their freezer space looks like I mean just like any of those kinds of things that you can do to, you know, educate yourselves or talk to your local restaurant that you know is is sourcing like how's that you know just ask questions and learn more over this next few months and I think there'll be some real good stuff to dig into next session. Yeah. Yeah, I'm looking forward to it it'll be. It's it's one of the things that's really exciting for me as we talk about doing things that really will have an incredible impact and also had a conversation earlier today with Alison Eastman and I think that the governor's plan that he's coming up with will be making investments in agriculture as well which is is really exciting. I would love to be able to. I'd love to see getting working lands to a base budget number of minimum $3 million a year. I think that would be great. Yes, it would. And I will say that in part that would really help to provide additional funding support also for the business and technical assistance community, because as a board member of working lands, I read applications. And so I see every year where those that have gone through and have worked with provide service providers have much stronger applications because their their concept of their expansion plans or what they want to do differently or next are just much more well thought out their plan for, you know, you think about the Jonesland Farm example, you know, they invested $100,000 in them last May for their transition from dairy to goat herd. That was, you know, they spent two years really learning about things and working with a number of service providers and working with Miles Hooper to really understand what they were getting into. And, and so like they were ready for that kind of money to then come in and help them work through the process of transitioning. So that's the power I think of marrying grant dollars with a strong technical and business assistance provider infrastructure, because you're going to get better projects. And, and those, and those projects are going to be more successful, which is going to get us where we really want to go having really viable farm and food businesses and forest and forest products businesses. So, yes, yes, and and and and tell me access to capital was always one of the big challenges. How is that going is that better. What's what's the scoop with access to capital. Well, interesting liars just reading a report that the community foundation people a little money for to to take a look at this notion of a loan guarantee pool and what Nancy Wasserman who did the research indicated was that there's not really a problem with low cost capital from a debt perspective. Like, like all of the capital providers she talked to are not having problems getting capital and getting it out the door. The issue is, and this is across. I mean this is consistent with any sector in Vermont. And this part is coming up with the initial money that early seed and early stage funding to start and grow, whether it's a farm, or whether it's a food business, you know, it's early stage when you're just not producing enough working capital, and you don't have enough equity built up to be able to then and or enough equipment to be able to bring in loan dollars. And sometimes, you know, dead is not the is not necessarily always the best capital need the best capital source for what is needed. But you know it's patient capital it's it's patient equity it's it's some of the having a few very patient investors who believe in what you're doing and can support you through those early stages until you get to a point where you could then take on debt responsibly meaning like you're not going to you can pay it back in a way that's not going to be a detriment to continuing to grow your business right. So I think the capital gap is primarily around equity from what I understand and the great thing about grant dollars is that they function like equity. Right, so if you if you get a $50,000 working lands grant, and you go to Vita to get $100,000 loan, they count that $50,000 grant funds as part of your equity in the business. So another reason to get as much money into it working lands. Those kinds of dollars are so critical to the overall capital stack that a business or a farm is going to be trying to put assemble, because, you know, in today's day and age, you're very rarely going to have, unless you've got access to a deep pocket, you're not going to have one source of capital, you know, you're not going to have one capital right you have to put together a mix, and, and you need diversity of types of capital and so what we're really lacking is that patient and equity type capital. Yeah, and, and so a few angel investors who angel investors that don't require or don't expect to have 35% returns on their money. Exactly, flexible investors who would be happy with five or 10 or even 15% return on their money overall over say a five or 10 year period, you know, like to be in line with like, you know, if you want to go if you really want to just invest in something and get a high return for that money, then, you know, invest, take your take your risk on a start on a startup tech company, because they have greater capacity to do that kind of hockey stick. But if you're, if you want to invest in your local food system and, and the people that are going to stay here and be here and continue year after year after year to produce food for our communities, for instance, then then invest like with a 5% or 5% rate of return expectation because it's not about the money it's about ensuring that there's success and activity and successful businesses in our community so some of that is like, is that the, the, the, it's the educational awareness of the investors to of knowing what their expectations are. Yeah, there's a reason why there's not a lot of venture capital and that capital in the farm and food space right the margins just aren't there. So, is that all that's out there is that is there's no there's nobody that wants to, you know, be completely okay with a five or 10% return knowing that they're investing in a small business. We've seen that we have got a lot of people in Vermont that that do do that. And it happens very quietly. And it's just not what we need more, more folks like that. Yeah, yeah, yeah. John go ahead. Well along these same lines and looking at how much federal money has come our way in CRF or ARPA money now. And, and why I thought it was brilliant that that we got to this point with a few coming in through the food security door, rather than just, you know straight up capital investment. At the federal level. Are there discussions about sort of national security even and you know food security issues where after COVID and realizing all the bottlenecks that happen and all the, you know, empty shells that happen that if there was money to develop this infrastructure regionally all over that would be great if they could come up with with matching dollars or just a continued stream of of investment in this it seems like and everybody'd be happy if it was every region got some really good question I don't know the answer. I would encourage you to, you know, talk to our congressional delegation staffers in the state about what they're hearing. I think, you know, things are still very fluid and evolving. I think it has been a really great awakening and awareness by a lot of about a lot of our congressional delegation folks I know representative Welch and, and, you know, was like definitely like there was definitely some wake up work that wake up that that happened because of the magnitude of what was happening in the early days of COVID around the supply chain that I that I heard about and talking to him. You know, real interest. I think the question is, you know, we've done and this gets back to that sort of overall question of what is the kind of food system we ultimately want and therefore how do we structure policies and our government structures to support that right because for the last 50 years, it has been about the cheap food policy which has then taken our tax dollars via then sub turned them into subsidies to corn wheat and soy producers in the Midwest primarily right that's what we have we have been sent to monocropping. So if, if we don't want to incent that anymore, you know, just like the president's infrastructure bill is saying no more gas and oil subsidies. What would what would happen if we started to really ratchet back subsidies of monocropping and instead we incentive more of diversified soil building climate friendly production practices for a diverse array of products and we did so with some percentage for with regional allocations.  You know, I want the Midwest to be producing food that Midwesterners can actually eat. Right. So, how could we actually incent our federal policy in that direction, not wholesale that's not going to happen you know it's not going to happen overnight. We started to ratchet back the subsidies and redirecting those to the kinds of things that we want to incent how what what kind of change could we see from that and I think that's it'd be great to have, you know, to talk with the federal delegation about what they're seeing on the landscape in terms of that awareness, especially given the openings that I think the Biden administration has has has opened up, how do we actually then change the internal structure of USDA and the way that Congress is allocating funding and for what purposes through the USDA. Carolyn maybe we should have have our partners from the Vermont delegation at least come in and talk about some of that stuff. Well funny you should say that I was just noting their names. It's fascinating, you know, and they may not be able to fully tell you because things are so much in flux but I think the question is, you know, what could they be doing. I was talking to my counterparts in in food Solutions, New England, and they're starting to think about how to try to support regional policy coordination in throughout New England like all the different key policy. Is there a convening function that food Solutions, New England could provide to bring us together. And I said, Yes, that would be awesome. And I think we pick one thing, and we do it really well and I said was influencing the titles and the allocations in the in the next farm bill. Right, so like, so they've they've stood up all these new programs around regional food which has been great and food hubs and especially crop block grants and all stuff. But compared to what is going to we corn soy in the Midwest. It's like it doesn't even compare it's not even on the same scale. So, what could we be doing as a block, could we get the majority of our congressional delegation across the six states to be advocating for more of a regionalized food system, again, not to create little islands all over the place but just increasing the percentage that is being produced and consumed within every region of the United States, not just in New England for New England, but you know take a national view of this what what could that look like. So, that's just a concept at this point whether that goes anywhere whether it eventually leaves anywhere who knows but like that's that that's the kind of thing that's been on my mind lately is how do we, how do we get that kind of a conversation happening more. All right, I'm curiously taking notes here. Go ahead. That is on my mind constantly as well. All the time and I am so on board with ratcheting back subsidies and incenting change and I think what stresses me out is the magnitude of needing to divest from corporate interests in politics because a lot of policy is very much crafted based on the money that is coming in from larger food institutions and I think that that is a challenge. I think that's really hard and I think that's something that is important to recognize that much of that policy is crafted based on who is funneling funds. And I think that with that there would have to be some kind of shift in corporate donations and lobbying and I think that that is a part that if you're talking about food security and if you're talking about that it also has to be brought into the conversation. Yeah, yeah, I think a good example of that was the sugar in the sugar industry. And then the influence they had.  Is this okay just keep asking questions. I think it's fine. Four minutes. I go to another meeting. How much four minutes. Probably you're not going to be able to answer this Ellen but while you were all talking I was thinking about in a pandemic so to speak or a natural disaster, all of a sudden we're facing things we hadn't realized before as you know, but we're dumping milk, and because institutions close and just so many things. I'm just curious, Ellen, has there been conversations about in another future thing we hope what doesn't happen but instead of having to dump milk let's say this cabinet have they had agri-mark, have they talked about ways to use the milk but use it in a different way or distribute it in a different way I mean just ways where you have to transition quickly. And that's the hard part in an unforeseen circumstances, the quick amount of, oh, you know, this distribution chain isn't here, how can we go over there, you know, playing bees, so to speak. That's a huge part of dealing with unforeseen things so I don't know what conversations have been happening maybe we could have some of them in and Ellen I'm sure you're, these things are on your radar, but but how do we use that milk in a more creative way instead of seeing it go down a drain, you know that kind of thing. Yeah, yeah, no it's a good question I would encourage you to have somebody from DFA and from, from Cabot and I mean my understanding. I could be off on this but my understanding was that it wasn't Cabot that was dumping milk it was it was DFA and in part the reason that Cabot wasn't and why they were actually expanding the number of jobs and the number of shifts was because they had more and more demand for their cheese and because the cheese plants because Cabot is is product, you know, more diversified products and with their whole range of products, they have more ability to service the consumer market with that kind of product mix. And so for them to be able to just increase production because there's increased demand, they have a greater potential for that because they have the equipment that then can be deployed to do that. My understanding and again I don't know all the details was that part of the reason for the, the milk dumping that happened back in in in the spring and I don't think it's it's still happening at all I think it's that was a, you know, a short term thing, was the equipment at the milk bottling plants, you know, was putting was used to servicing certain kinds of institutional markets, and those markets didn't exist anymore and they didn't have the equipment to be able to make to pivot and make those changes. Right, because there's, there's a lot of specialization that happens within the dairy processing infrastructure. So some plants, you know, focus on certain types of production and other plants focus on other types of production, and they have the equipment to match that kind of production. So if they don't have, if there's no all of a sudden the bottom drops out of the product market for what they normally produce, they kind of don't have, like, they don't have a lot of options because they don't have the physical equipment on site they have to find a new home for that and that takes time because of the way the distribution routes are set up and and how things just normally flow to all of a sudden kind of immediate need to like change where that hauling truck goes is not something that can literally happen overnight. And I think even with the best planning would still be challenging. There's still not be, I don't think we could ever get to a point of sort of never again will get dumped. I just don't, I don't see that as realistic. But I think you raise a good point about do we have enough diversification within our dairy processing industry in the region to enable more quickly to pivot when needed. And I think those are big questions that I can't imagine aren't happening because it was so, it was so with us, you know, for that future, but I'm not privy to those conversations about what those entities may be thinking about how they're planning for it in the future. And that's kind of scenario planning for for big companies, you know, to think about like, if this happens then what's the, you know, how do we how do we shift how do we pivot. So, you know, if you're curious about that I would encourage you to talk to the folks that that are in it every day because I'm certainly not. Thanks Ellen. Thank you. Okay, we have about three minutes left with Ellen are there any final questions, anything Ellen you want to add. No, just to say thank you for being on this and being so focused and asking good questions and really, you know, wanting to make a difference in our in our food system so just really so appreciate everything that you guys do every day I know that, especially being online is not. It's not easy and I look forward to, I'm hoping next by January will be back in your room together. So that would be really nice. Thank you. If you want to do some touring around in your region and you're not sure like what might be a good example, you know, give us a shout and if we can help identify some places for you to set up a little tour or something you know happy to happy to help in that way any way we can. Fantastic Ellen I really appreciate your time. Thank you so much we really appreciate your expertise and your, your thinking out of the box as we say and so keep up the good work. Thank you so much and we'll see you tomorrow talking about my technical college. I know I'm really excited about that too. All right committee. So, I've got on the list Heather Darby. I've got on the list, the federal delegation. And for those of you who might want to listen to as reclines podcast with Mark bitman, you could do that offline. Any one else. Vicki do you want to hear from DFA regarding, you know, alternatives to dumping milk. I would love to actually what they learned from the pandemic and how they look to the future for for regional milk, whatever you know what their, their distribution and chain is would be interesting. I'm sure we've heard from them some before but it's always good to hear what's happening. Also, while Ellen was talking I thought about our forest products she didn't mention it once. But I'd like to have Ed Larson back in and perhaps others in the wood products industry. The pandemic really affected them and continues to be an issue in certain aspects of forestry. And even when I'm thinking about wood supply so many of us have wood heat. And those can be those chains of sale and such can be this can be disrupted easily. And that's an essential part of life. So, I'd like to hear, take some time on the forest products aspect of our work as a committee. That's a great idea. How about if we start with the Commissioner. Sure, that'd be great. Yeah. And then we can, we can go from there and see, see where it takes us. Yeah, I, I'm surrounded by woods but not, not necessarily everybody is so that could definitely be a problem. Okay, so I'll put the Commissioner on and then we'll, we'll go from from there. So, one of our jobs is to get is to get s 102 out. And we're going to be hearing testimony this afternoon from some of the folks in the industry. I'm wondering if there's anyone else you can think of, we can also talk about this later. And I hope we're going to be off the floor in time for 230. If, if we get off earlier, then come to committee, as soon as we're done. Well, you know, I'll give you 10 or 15 minutes, but try and think of anybody else you think we should hear from regarding s 102. And so, for those who might just be tuning in, that's the compost of foraging with chickens on compost and producing compost, and also the supplements and and registering them with the agency of agriculture as so many other feed supplements are so big key, go ahead. Sorry, I don't think this is one or two but with with extra money if that happens with working lands I'd love to hear from the working lands enterprise folks. How can we distribute this money to some of these initiatives we're talking about but also in the forest products industry as well. How does that work. The working lands fund help them. So just kind of a broad picture of that and if we really get this money going and be cool to hear how this will be ramped up. And forestry definitely is a part of working lands mission, you know it's not just agriculture it's, it's forestry as well. So, important point, Vicki, john. Like, like Vicki just mentioned sort of post 102. I would love to hear from some people I don't know if anybody at the agency of ag can speak as freely as Ellen about just sort of big picture cultural change stuff and and I'm thinking how would this translate into potential legislation because I think, you know, we're all so busy as citizen legislature legislators that it's sometimes hard for us to come up with with a bill that might help towards what we're just talking about but somebody at the agency or, or like Ellen with one foot sort of, you know, in in government and and one foot outside. I would I would love to just hear some, you know, potential potential bill ideas that we could be thinking about this summer. So, when you say big picture ag stuff. Can you be a little more specific. Because what I'm thinking now is Abby Willard. Do you mean ag development that kind of thing. Exactly like, you know, we got the big book ag Bible, but, but to start looking at some of those, you know, future thinking ideas as as bills would be interesting. And you know the agency can do some in the, in the marketplace will just take care of some but you know what do we do as a committee to to to grease the skids here. Yeah, yeah, well and that's, you know, that's on my mind to, you know, what is there anything we can do, especially with you know I was thinking in terms of the regional food supply chain system but you know, because I always love to, to make things work a little bit better so. So I'll put her on the list as well. Other, you know, and I actually, I was thinking, I just got my second shot on Monday. So yesterday I was kind of rough shape, but I'm feeling much better today, aside from a sore arm. You know, on the 19th of April, I'm going to be somewhat free, you know I'll still wear masks and stuff but we could get together for a picnic on the State House lawn. So be thinking about that we wanted to be a warm day. We did have a wonderful picnic when was that was that last, is that August. I can't remember. It was so much fun. I can't remember when it was at August. My head is same July, but I don't know why that's happening. You might be right. It was, it was really fun. It was a nice potluck under some trees. Yeah. Also, I found out from chief, Romy I that there is actually power out there so if we, we ask we can probably plug in our little crock pots and stuff and we can have hot food next. We're going to make a real production out of this.  That was really nice. It was great. It was a good time. Yeah, yeah, I loved it. Henry, go ahead. You can bring your kids. Yeah. I have a broad question about our role in in education. I was thinking about a lot with what Ellen was saying and what we've been talking about, especially in primary secondary education as that revolves around agriculture and programs and, you know, I don't know some of my background is in economics but we talk a lot about utility and driving utility as far as what people want and what people desire and what they're going to spend money on. And just teaching that if you know we're talking about processed foods and people, if they're not exposed and I know you've talked about it a little bit Carolyn as far as home back and things in in school and teaching people to cook. And just, you know, I'm thinking big picture, as far as teaching teaching kids that aren't going to be exposed to the benefits of nutrition and cooking and where their food comes from because, especially kids nowadays are so far removed from agriculture as far as food, whereas that really wasn't the case years ago and there there really was more ag education and now it's not as far as I know it's not mandated that I'm not one for a big heavy hand of telling telling schools what they should what they should teach but I'm just wondering what our role is or what our possible role is as far as I don't know even requiring some sort of nutrition or ag education in in Vermont schools is that a topic that's ever been discussed. You know, it's it kind of come comes under the purview as far as we go of farm to school. Because I think many, you know, all the farm to school programs might be different. There's no one prescribed thing when one town built a road route seller but but many of these folks are are focused around good nutrition and teaching kids about that. I can go on a diatribe about this a little bit. And I did I began to but I I ran myself in earlier when I was in seventh and eighth grade so this is a long time ago. There were actually, you know you spent a year. This is, by the way, also only for girls, which just irritates the living heck out of me. But we would have one third of the year devoted to cooking, one third of the year devoted to sewing, and there was dedicated to grooming. Oh my Lord. What kind of face do you have how should you do your hair. I mean, I speak about it now it was horrifying but I actually grooming just lost me completely but I really did enjoy cooking and the sewing class. And I'd already learned to sew and my mother had already basically taught me to cook by the time I was 14 anyway but anyway this is you can see I can get off on this tangent and it makes me crazy. But I think that cooking is so basic. You know, I one of the things I have all three of my kids are boys, but they learned how to cook. The basics, isn't it, you know, and, and, and they do a major portion of the cooking for their families now into two of my sons do I think what I would call most of the cooking. So, So I'm sort of speechless. I don't think I don't know if they do cooking in the high school now. And, and that's a really good question I, you know, Henry we could have somebody in from. I could check with Kate Web and, and others but that's kind of nitty gritty curriculum type stuff. It's not really our purview, but it might be interesting to find out what would be the question you would want answered. Yeah, yeah, just, just basically what, what is, is there any, any requirements or what is, is there a baseline of what is taught I mean there must be, I don't know enough about education as far as like, there must be certain standards of which, you know, kids need to learn you know obviously they need to learn the alphabet. Well, that's a standard that's, that's mandated. Is there a standard for nutrition and for, you know, food safety, you know, I guess somebody that could answer those. If that's something that's looked at and, you know, if, if, if, you know, in my mind and this is a personal thought but I think food production and nutrition is more important than learning the alphabet, you know, you know, but that's, that's not a, you know, that's not a common thought but I'm wondering if, if there's any requirement, what it would look like to have a requirement and if anybody else is, is thinking that that's important you know I'm just thinking about driving. This is a long, long term, you know, goal but driving the future of, you know, because you have to create that want and desire and knowledge that this is important and creating utility essentially but so yeah. So, so Mike Farrant sent me a chat and he said I don't usually give input to committee meetings, but I think you should Mike and I'm glad you did. But my daughter is doing the Spalding High School's gardening program this summer. It's called Barry Buds program Barry Town School does a gardening program too. And we have heard, I think it was Harwood Union High School. When we, when we heard from about farm to school. We heard that they have a farm to school club. You know, and, and so they're learning about these things. And so, but I don't know if, if there's anything curriculum wise prescribed by the agency of education, requiring these things so we can ask that question I'll do a little sleuthing and if you want to do some sleuthing to that would be great. But it may be at this point somewhat limited to farm what farm to school does. That's a great question a great area we could talk about.  There was a, if I if I've told you this stopped me okay. There is a program in Middlebury at the food co op. And it was kind of the beginning of gleaning there was a wonderful young woman who was an intern there. And what she realized is that they had all this fresh produce, but nobody knew how to process it, or very few knew how to process it so they. She set up the situation where on the days when the food shelf, the food pantry was open. And they would, she would cook a really delicious vegetable soup. And she would have bags you know she would be giving out samples, she would bags with all of the required ingredients in it with the instructions on how to do it. So as people came in, and it was sort of afternoon probably I don't know what afternoon of the week but kids would take the samples they love the soup. And their parents, hey, let's take a bag. Let's learn how to do it and meanwhile she would be demonstrating how to process the carrots and what have to. It was just such a, you win win win win win. I loved it. So, you know, those kinds of things I think are so important and, you know, when you, when you show somebody somebody how to do something. They, they really learn it. What's that PSA quote, I'll never get it right, you know, I hear and I forget. Ultimately, I see and I remember and I do and I can do it myself sort of thing. Anyway, that that's really that we can look into it. My long way of getting around, we can look into it. Ronnie, you unmuted yourself. Did you want to say something. I was just going to say, when Henry was talking or you were talking about very town. Wimstone has a greenhouse. You still use it to raise, raise vegetables for the food set for the food cafeteria. Not sure what they're doing now. Then they start growing pot and that didn't go over well. Was that before it was legal. Yes. Yeah, probably wasn't legal for a high school kid either. So anyway, no, I'm not sure it was a kid. Oh dear. One of those sticky situations. Yeah. And Leland and Gray high school in Townsend has, I believe, a greenhouse and that may have been the result of a farm to school grant and they were doing the very same thing, not the growing of pot to my knowledge, but definitely the growing of vegetables for the cafeteria. So yeah, those are really wonderful projects that have grown out of no pun intended grown out of farm to school.  No worries. John, go ahead. Yes, Henry's Henry's thoughts there made me think of another type of business that's in crisis. I think, you know, along with dairy farming is the play of our general stores in Vermont. And it's just this, this, you know, very dark downward spiral. So as places, not only are they cultural hubs, but they're also places where we can sell food. And so since we, you know, incentivize a lot of, a lot of what we're talking about, I would love to have a discussion about what we can do to bring back general stores or even keep the ones we have. You know, Tumbridge had had 10 years ago, we had to their both shuttered now. And then, you know, you hear some, some hopeful stories like I think it's maple corner has a, you know, a community, not for profit we may have to go more in that, that direction, but, but I think they're really important and they're disappearing. And I think that what we were just talking about food and food security and markets, they all come into play there. Yeah. All but Mickey Albany just opened one, right? Yes, they did that same thing John worked together as a community, got grants and such it's kind of sad that it takes that amount of effort to do such a thing. But it had been burned and they had gas tanks under the ground and so a lot of complications, but it gives revitalization to communities to have that for sure. Yeah, and Putney's gone through the same thing. I'm not as, excuse me aware of all of the gyrations, but I think they, they, you know, they close, they had a fire, they, you know, they got it going again, they had a fire. It was pretty devastating, but I think one of the reasons why our general stores have struggled so much is because people don't use them. And, and they, they, oh, well, we're going to Claremont to market basket or we're going to the grocery store. And so they don't, you know, and maybe a loaf of bread is a little more expensive and what have you. And so they, they choose, choose to, you know, buy the least expensive food that they can. And when you're struggling for a living, that is one of the choices you might make is to just go someplace where the food is cheap. I know Barnard has a wonderful one. Teo is a legislator. We all went up there and Barnard has a wonderful general store. Is that still doing well, Heather? Yeah, I actually worked there last winter. And I supply stuff from the farm there also and trying to get more local food in there, but they have new owners. And it was also something where our community funded it to get it back up and running. And, you know, we talked so much about the economic viability of it. And I think the challenge circling this back to like food security is that they're also a business and they're trying to get it. So purchasing from local producers is out of their price point. And that was so hard, but it is a beautiful general store. And it's when I grew up going to and enjoyed working there. But yeah, there's, there's a lot of dynamics. I think that really go into trying to keep those viable, but also, you know, flipping that around to a rural community, we don't have access to a grocery store in Barnard really anywhere close. And that is where folks do end up going. So they are critical. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Good. Any, any other ideas, Vicki? I was just mulling over Henry's comments and questions. Do you remember? Oh, iron chef. That's what I was trying to think of the iron chef contest and the kids come in to the state house and bring food. That's another kind of culinary program in some schools. But it's interesting that how the pendulum swings, because what Henry's comments are basically cooking and those essential things aren't part of curriculums anymore. I don't know how that happened. They drifted away. But I took home back as well, Caroline, you know, 50 some years ago, we didn't have the, the beauty part of it. But the cookie you, we could go to charm school though, if we wanted to. But the funny thing was my, my husband went to, took home back. He's a better sewer than I am. And my, my sister in law went to shop.  How many of you remember that? You know, you learned how to build stuff. There was shop, but it was only for the boys. And I had one classmate, Nora Salamone. I, I, she was one of my good friends and she actually took shop. And I, I wished in retrospect that instead of grooming, I was able to get into the shop class because I would love to have done, you know, woodworking and what have you. So, yeah, I think the pendulum swinging, I think we're definitely have to go back to those practical things. Jeez, you know, I really need it. And the great thing about iron chef and which is sort of an outgrowth of Vermont, you know, Vermont feed food education every day. And the, and the food farm to school network is that it's, it's co-ed, you know, it's not just geared to females because somehow we were expected to be doing all the cooking. Oh, well, times have changed. John. I think FFA and FBLA still exists, but you know, were any of us members and, and do you ever check in with, with high standards to see if they're still at all active because that would be another interesting, you know, intersection with food. I mean, it's funny that like future business leaders didn't include. I think it all be just one, one group there. Yeah, you know, we used to FFA used to come to the state house, but it's been a long time. And it's not just the pandemic, I think that's held them back. John, do you want to look into that and see about, you know, do a little research and see if FFA is strong. Great. Jackie Folsom might be a great. Right.  Well, I was going to say, I think FFA is pretty strong. So here in Addison County anyway, maybe not like it used to be, but, and 4-H too. I mean, there's, if we have a fair this year, there's the 4-H building is always full of crafts and displays. So it's a pretty, I mean, obviously there's a lot of them that show animals, but their 4-H is pretty big still.  So as well as showing cows that you prefer to do it the other way. But it's, you know, it's just a different mindset now. Yep. I was thinking what, like a food hub, but it sounds very good.  It's the same as, you know, bananas and oranges and apples from Washington. You just kind of get used to everything just being there and you just walk through and you grab it and it's no big deal. You don't even think about, well, they had to fly it in from Peru, you know, and Bobby Spray did was something to keep it from ripening for five days and all that other good stuff. But, you know, I don't think young people, unless they're, they grew up that way there. They don't think about it. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And I think that's one of the great things that working lands farm to plate, farm to plate initially and then working lands as well has really generated is a little bit of a little bit of a consciousness raising. Regarding the value of local food and, and as we talk more about climate change and, and our carbon footprint, the notion and, you know, when Ellen was talking about subsidies, talking about subsidies subsidized water out in California, which is when I worked at Harlow farm years and years ago, it was one of the topics, you know, one of the, what, how can, how can California produce be so cheap? You know, when you're thinking about the fact that it gets transported all the way out here and, and it's subsidized with federal highways. It's subsidized in terms of water. So these are all things that people are thinking about more, I think, but I agree with you, Terry, but you know, the average person, you know, they go to the store and they just buy what they, what they have there and it's not a real, there's not more value put on local food. So as, as we think more about climate footprint, carbon footprint and what have you. And I'm also really looking forward to hearing from Ryan. We were supposed to hear from Ryan patch yesterday afternoon about the payment for ecosystem services. So I'm looking forward to hearing from Ryan about the work that's going on and I'm interested to hear from him on what's, what's happened there because people need to understand that if farmers are going to be employing soil health principles and techniques. And if they're going to be sequestering carbon, there should be some way to reward them for that. So any other thoughts. All right. So I think what we'll do at this point, unless anybody has some additional thoughts or comments or questions is we will, we will stop now. And we'll be back. We're going to be on the floor. And then when we get off the floor and I haven't looked actually at the calendar yet, but hopefully we'll be off at least by two 30 when we have these witnesses.  So, so hopefully we'll get in there by two 30 and. And we'll be able to hear from them. So there's a few amendments coming up on. Not three 15, what was the general contractors bill. Yes.  Well, let's keep our fingers crossed that we get done in a timely matter, but if it's past two 30. And, but it's not ridiculous, like four o'clock, then we'll, we will come to committee. And we'll hear from those folks will just be a little bit flexible. But if we buy some miracle, get done a little early, you know, take a few minutes, but then come to committee. All right. Okay. Thank you, everybody. This has been a really great session. I really enjoyed it. And if you think you have any more ideas, don't, don't hesitate to.