I'm Chair of the House Judiciary Committee, and I want to welcome you to the third of three public hearings of the Vermont House Government Operations and House Judiciary Committees. I'm joined by members of both committees and legislative staff. The purpose of these meetings is to obtain input from community members on proposed changes to law enforcement policy. The national reaction to events over the past several months has brought systemic racism in the United States into dramatic focus. While Vermont's legislature has pursued many efforts over recent years to begin to identify and address implicit bias, recognition of the urgency of this work has grown, particularly related to law enforcement. In response, the legislature is considering ideas on how police practices in the state should change, including policies on use of force, citizen oversight, body cameras, hideering and training of police officers, and other relevant issues. We recognize there is much more work our state and nation needs to do in recognizing and mitigating systemic racism beyond policing policy. We are committed to continuing a deeper dialogue with Vermonters about that work, and we will look for your participation in future conversations. I now want to introduce Representative Sarah Copeland-Hanses. Thank you. Thank you, Maxine. And I want to thank you all for joining us today to give input to the work in front of us in August and September. Since I will be facilitating the meeting, I want to share a few quick expectations and logistics and apologize for the sheep who's making noise in the background. The Vermont legislature is still relatively new to the ins and outs of holding virtual public hearings, and we're going to do our best to ensure that the Zoom format gives the public committees and other members of the legislature the same opportunity to listen and participate as if we were physically present in the state house. Just as if we were in the chamber, there are members of the judiciary and government operations committees here at the Zoom table. We will call up registered participants one by one to share two minutes of testimony. As always, we're happy to have you share written remarks if you're unable to get to all of your points in the allotted time. We're going to ask that you try to sum up your remarks within 20 seconds of when your time is up, and you can always send written remarks to committees via the legislative website on either committee page. Lastly, you only see as panelists the members of these two committees. However, there are many members of the legislature who are watching these hearings via YouTube. Now a few moments on expectations for the hearing. We will be calling for the same decorum as if we were physically present at the state house. That means no signs or posters, no profanity or abusive language. Each participant is required to identify themselves via Zoom, and I will call each witness and at the same time queue up the person who is going next so they can be prepared. When it's your turn, staff will move you from attendee into the virtual witness seat. You'll have two minutes to speak. For those of you who are in the Zoom meeting, you should be able to see the two minute timer on one of your Zoom tiles. For those of you calling in, we'll do our best to be sure you hear when your time is nearly up by giving you an audible reminder at 30 seconds. And again, when your time is up. Please try to wrap your remarks quickly at that point. We'll give you about 20 seconds to do that, and then you'll be moved back into the attendees gallery so we can call up the next witness. You're welcome to continue watching the rest of the hearing from the attendee gallery, or you may opt to leave the Zoom meeting and watch the remainder on YouTube. But for technical reasons, it's best if you don't try to do both. As each of you are moved into the witness chair, I will welcome you with the following remarks. Thank you for being here. We'll begin the timer when you start and go ahead whenever you're ready. And as I mentioned before, this is groundbreaking territory for us. We're just learning how to use this format for public hearings. But the urgency of this moment asks us to chart new waters because regardless of the global pandemic and whether it's safe for us to be meeting in person, we must bring Vermonters together to hear each other and understand each other on these important issues. So thank you so much for joining us today to share your thoughts. And with that, I want to call up our first witnesses. I believe that our first witness will be Niall really of Vergenz. And the second witness will be Mike Bensell of Burlington. So Niall, when you are ready, go ahead. Good afternoon. Can you hear me okay? Yes, we can. Thank you. My name is Niall Rayling. I live in Vergenz, a community of 2,502 square mile radius. We in Vergenz spend more on law enforcement as a percentage of our municipal budget than any other community in the state, close to 40%. And at the same time, the data suggests that a black driver in Vergenz is three times more likely to be pulled over in a traffic stop, a worse ratio than anywhere else in the state. It is my view that our current system is not serving us as well as it could. After the killing of George Floyd, this led to a conversation around what a body of citizen review could look like in Vergenz. This was never meant to be a blanket indictment of the department that hasn't continued to do good in this community. Instead, this was an opportunity to build a bridge between the community and the police department. After all, systemic problems need systemic solutions. Unfortunately, this conversation had poked the proverbial bear. It has since led to the collapse of our city government and a campaign of intimidation and obstruction targeting anyone who dared discuss how we can do better as a community. In the face of an unmoving and powerful status quo, we are turning to the state for leadership. My hope is that the legislature puts in place an expectation that all Vermont policing agencies have an empowered and independent body of civilian review with clear guidelines on structure and process. If there is to be a statewide body of citizen review, it is our hope that does not come at the cost of municipal efforts to build these systems for themselves, but instead works to strengthen these efforts. I will leave you with this. How could it be a bad thing when you have citizens showing up, glend their voices, time and energies to making systems better? In the Gens, we have citizens who serve in various volunteer capacities, including on our police, on our on our pool advisory board. So is it civic engagement? What is demanded of us in a healthy democracy? And if we show up, how can we let them turn us away? Thank you. Thank you for being with us. Now I will call up Mike Bensal of Burlington and on deck is Michelle Voslin of Westminster. Go ahead, Mike, when you're ready. Hello, I'm Mike Bensal. I use he, him, his pronouns. I'm the executive director of the Pride Center of Vermont. One way that our organization supports LGBTQ plus communities is through our safe space anti-violence program. Through our work supporting LGBTQ plus survivors, we find that most victims choose not to work with police because they don't feel safe or they've been harmed in ways that include unfair targeting, violence and hostile attitudes towards their identities. This is especially true of people of color that are accessing our services. Successful interactions with police are a very rare exception. And often if a survivor decides to work with the police, the experience becomes more destructive and helpful. As advocates, we turn to other community resources outside of law enforcement to resolve harm and restore safety to our community members. Our current system of policing is so often acts as a harmful tool, a blunt instrument like a hammer, a forceful, violent way to impact change in our communities. Our systems of public safety need to evolve to correct the incredible harm to black and brown people who continue to be harmed by the system at much higher rates in the state of Vermont. The safest communities don't have more police. They have more resources, other tools. We have an opportunity to fundamentally change the role of police in our society. We must prioritize ambitious police reforms now. LGBTQ plus people of color started a revolution against the police during the Stonewall riots in 1969 in New York City. That was a catalyst for incredible growth and change over the last 50 years.  Thank you for listening to me and taking on this difficult and necessary topic. I'm here to urge you today to embrace the ACLU's 10 point plan and the Racial Justice Alliance state priorities. Thank you. Thank you, Mike. Next I'd like to invite Michelle Bosslund of Westminster and Andeck is Rosa Van Wee of Bennington. Michelle, when you're ready. Thank you for having me. I wanted to address my remarks today around the issue of mental health and policing involving mental health issues. I'm a person who has had family members who have had mental health struggles and have had numerous dealings where the police have been involved. Here in Westminster where I live, we actually are very fortunate in that we have an embedded crisis worker through the local designated agency who currently is one of the first responders who shows up when there is a mental health crisis. Years ago, we did not have that and the situation was very different and much more harmful in terms of what happened when the police showed up to deal with somebody in your house who was having a struggle. Unfortunately, in the state of Vermont, there are only two barracks, Vermont state police barracks that have embedded crisis workers. One is up North and one is in Westminster. If you look at our state, that's an awful lot of regions where the only people showing up are the police to deal with a mental health crisis. And that is not the first responder that should be showing up. There may be an ambulance that shows up. There may be other support people. But when you call 911, having the police show up as the first responder, that is not generally the most therapeutic response. And that is generally likely to have a higher chance of having an escalation where sometimes the police end up using violence against those people because they don't know how to de-escalate the situation. We've actually lost, I believe, four Vermonters in the last year to death who were people struggling with mental health who had situations where the police came and the situation ended in tragedy. Another issue when there are cases where the police need to respond, and sometimes there are, if there's a weapon involved, if somebody has threatened violence, the police may need to show up for a mental health call. If that's the case, what we need are a police force who are very well-trained in how to deal with and understand mental health situations. In Austin, Texas, they require 40 hours of training in mental health issues before someone can join the police force. That, I believe, is more than twice what we require here in Vermont. We can't... We need to transition to the next witness in 20 seconds if you can wrap up, please. Yes. I was just saying that in Austin, Texas, they require 40 hours of training before you become a police officer in terms of mental health issues. And I believe Vermont should move to the same model. So we need more embedded, more invited crisis workers and we also need better trained officers. Thank you. Thank you, Michelle. Next up is Rosa Van Wee of Bennington. And after that, I have Christy Papoon of Bennington as well. Rosa, when you're ready, you can unmute and go ahead. Hello, everyone. My apologies for the lack of a video feed. The computer with the best microphone doesn't have a working camera. But my name is Rosa Van Wee. I taught at the Molly Stark Elementary School in Bennington while living in the same town for the last two years. During my time there, I had quite a few problematic interactions with the Bennington PD and certainly more interactions than I have had with police while living anywhere else. This is largely due to the ineffective over-policing that occurs in this town. This past year at Molly Stark, we had a special education teacher leave during the first week of school. In addition to the logistical challenges this created, the regularity with which we did not meet IEP requirements and the sidelining of students, the school resource officer was asked by administration to make connections with students who had a history of police trauma without either the teacher or the parents having knowledge or giving consent. In late winter, I approached the SRO to ask him to either help me make a comprehensive plan to mitigate crisis behaviors in my classroom or to stop repeatedly interacting with only one black boy in my room because it felt like unsafe racial bias. This was after our school had a racial bias training for teachers and staff. My talk with a police officer was polite but brief due to the constant time restrictions of being a teacher. However, the school resource officer went to the chief of police about our discussion. Chief Jusette then contacted our superintendent James Calkeen over the issue. It took the administrators less than a month to inform me that I would not be rehired due to unprofessional behavior despite my previous feedback from parents, colleagues and building administrators being overwhelmingly appreciative and favorable. I have other stories including the lack of intervention when my next door neighbor was experiencing homicidal hallucinations, but I know my time is running short. Thank you very much for listening to my testimony today. I would like to ask that you prioritize reallocating funds to mental health and education in our communities to aid the over-inflated police structure in situations which officers are not qualified to resolve. Thank you, Rosa. Next, we'll have Christie Papoon and after that, Randy W of Burlington. Christie, when you're ready. Christie, when you're ready, go ahead and unmute yourself. Hi, now we see you. Thank you. Good afternoon. My name is Christie Papoon. I'm a lifelong resident of Bennington and a licensed clinical social worker and alcohol drug counselor. Vermont needs to end systemic racism in our society and in our institutions. One obvious place to start is in our police departments and justice system. This work can't begin until systemic racism is acknowledged and understood on all levels of our society and must be addressed both at the local and state levels equally. First, qualified immunity needs to end and law enforcement officers need to be held accountable for acts of misconduct and criminal offenses. Qualified immunity shields officers that abuse their power thus allowing this behavior to continue unabated. There needs to be greater transparency in police misconduct and this includes ending confidentiality for disciplinary records and other limits on public access to information. Accurate data collection and reporting to citizen oversight committees needs to be made mandatory. This leads to the need for more holistic and trauma-informed training for law enforcement officers focusing on de-escalation rather than incarceration. Data shows that law enforcement rarely prevents crime and progress but rather responds primarily in a reactionary role. Shouldn't their training reflect that role? Another issue that affects our future generations in a most insidious manner are the use of school resource officers. SROs are not creating safety in our schools just the opposite. Our children are being desensitized to the militarization of our society and being policed oftentimes for acting like children. Children of color, children with disabilities and low income children are all targeted at a disproportionate rate and therefore feel less safe with police presence. There is no data to support the SROs, especially at our elementary schools, are beneficial to our children and have been shown to contribute to the school-to-prison pipeline. For these and numerous other reasons, I appreciate that the Vermont Legislature is taking police reform seriously. Thank you. Thank you for being with us today. Next, I have Randy W. of Burlington and then Jessica Van Oort of Pollock. Randy, go ahead and unmute yourself when you're ready. And for those of you who are attendees, it's a good idea to unmute you when I give you your on-deck warning because when you come into the meeting, then you will be unmuted and able to start your testimony. Go ahead, Randy. Second. I'm having a problem with my video or stream, so I'm hoping you guys see me. Hi, my name is Randy. Okay, hi. My name is Randy. From Burlington, I represent Black Men's Alliance and I've been in a couple of voices out in the Burlington community as far as the Black community. And my question as far as police reform is, what are their plans to do to work in the community as far as young kids, as far as starting an organization of programs to work with these kids, find an outlet that these kids have so they can utilize, so they don't have to be actually involved in, sorry, I had a list of what I had written out and I cannot find it somewhere. So sorry, I apologize about that. But basically I'm asking out there, what are the police planning on doing to work with the community as far as programs, festivals, something to have kids, have their time to use it in a constructive, sorry, it's hard for me because I have my list and I don't have it in front of me, I'm just starting to look for it. But my question is basically, what are they planning on doing to be involved with the community and getting to know the community as far as also having cops that work in the areas that they're patrolling. That's another one of my concerns and questions I have. Sorry, I'm not able to use all the time cause I don't have the proper notes in front of me, sorry. Please feel free to share them with us via the legislative website if you feel so inclined because we would love to hear your thoughts. I will. Thank you. Next we have Jessica Van Oort of Pollitt and after that, Kazmyr DeWolf of Brattleboro. Hi, Jessica. I'm Jessica Van Oort and I'm from Pollitt, as you heard. My only interactions with police in Vermont have been virtually non-existent. We never see police out here in Pollitt. And once on highway seven, I got pulled over for a tail light and the officer was polite. That's it. I realized though that my experience as a white woman is not the same experience that many other Vermonters have had, especially black Vermonters. So I've started listening carefully to voices that are different from mine. And because of this, I support the 10 part plan for police reform put forward by the Vermont branches of the NAACP and the ACLU and many other organizations. I wanna highlight three of these recommendations that especially stand out to me. One, ending qualified immunity. Why should things that are clearly a crime to any right-minded human being not be crimes for government workers because of an outdated legal policy? Two, require appointment of independent counsel. Why should police misconduct be investigated by people with bias toward those same police? Three, which we already heard a little bit about, limit police involvement in low level offenses. Why should dealing with a car crash or a person with mental illness, for example, require an officer with a gun? I have one additional recommendation of my own based on the recent officer involved shooting in Rutland, which is near me. In that it's incident officers chased a vehicle and shot at it. They injured the driver who then crashed. I would be in favor of a law forbidding officers to shoot at moving vehicles because that just seems like a recipe for disaster. One final thought, Vermont wants people, especially young people to move here and help our economy and our aging population. If we could pass strong progressive police reform, if we could lead the nation in this way and prove to black people, indigenous people and people of color that we truly want them here, them in particular, if we make our actions speak louder than words, we could draw more people and diverse people to move to Vermont and become part of our great little state. Thank you. Thank you, Jessica. Now we have Kazmyr DeWolf of Brattleboro and after that, Melinda Moulton of Huntington. Hi, sorry, I'm getting my notes up. Okay, my name is Kazmyr DeWolf. My pronouns are they, them or he, him. I'm a member of, oh, let me start the video. Here we go, there we are, hi. I'm a member of the LGBTQ community and the psych survivor community. The police in the US grew from two sources, slave catchers with star badges caught fugitive slaves who were deemed to have drapedomania, a mental illness making them want to escape. The other origin was business owners levying their influence to have security funded by the state. To this day, police continue to commit violence against black and brown people and against those of us who don't pass as sane, as well as serve property owners and corporate interests. The Supreme Court has repeatedly ruled that police are not obligated to protect individuals in their communities. Given the history and current practice of the police, I want to urge the state to defund the police over time toward abolition. I ask that the state do not endorse any reforms that increase the funding of the police force, the criminal justice system and the incarceral psychiatric system. That includes social workers authorized to have people committed or crisis workers. As a psychiatric survivor, I cannot stress enough that forced psychiatric treatment is torture and involuntary hospitalization is just imprisonment. I fear that reform means tax money for training, embedded crisis workers, et cetera. Pouring more money into an unjust and violent system will not make us safer. What does make us safer is investing in our communities. Defund the police and put money into low barrier housing, community centers, mutual support networks and funding universal healthcare. Strong communities won't make us safe. Thanks, that's all I got. I did that faster than I thought I would. Thank you, Kazemir. We appreciate you being with us. Next up is Melinda Moulton of Huntington. And after that is Irina Smirnova of Colchester. Melinda, when you are ready. Hi, Melinda, go ahead and unmute yourself when you're ready. Video starting. I'm gonna allow it, okay. Can you all see me? We see a lovely picture of you and we can hear you. Right there I am, I'm sorry. Okay, everybody, thank you. Okay, I am Melinda Moulton. There I go again.  All right, I am Melinda Moulton. I'm a resident of Huntington. I'm the CEO of Main Street Landing and I am a newly appointed board member for the ACLU of Vermont. I am here today to concur with all of you that we are at a transformational time in our state's history and we cannot wait any longer to legislate fair and equitable policing in Vermont. I am not here to attack our police officers but to engage them in this work. In this country for centuries, our black and brown brothers and sisters have been murdered, falsely charged and brutalized by white supremacy. I am a strong supporter of the 10-part action plan presented by the ACLU of Vermont. But today I wanna focus on divestment and reinvestment of our tax dollars to create a more fair and effective way of policing our citizens. We must have a shifting of power, of funding, of resources and responsibility away from the punitive and harmful institution of policing and transfer all of this into community-based and community-led supportive services that uplift communities. We should fund emergency responders who are not police, restore equal justice and transform our justice programs in our public education. We should hire school counselors, social workers and nurses for all of our schools. We must build affordable housing, invest in mental health services and provide alternatives to police intervention for people in crisis. We need to increase funding for youth programs, job training and infrastructure like public transit and violence prevention. All of this is possible here in Vermont. We can make this happen. So to quote the honorable John Lewis, what I try to tell young people is that if you come together with a mission and it's grounded with love and a sense of community you can make the impossible possible. Vermont has the love and the sense of community to do this important transformational work. Thank you. Thank you, Melinda. Next I have Irina Svinova and after that we will go to Michael or Amanda Moran of Williston. So Irina, when you're ready, go ahead. Welcome Irina. Irina, are you with us? We are ready to hear your thoughts. All right, maybe Irina stepped away from the computer. So let's go ahead to the next person. So Michael or Amanda Moran of Williston. There's Amanda. So go ahead and unmute yourself, Amanda. Hi, I'm Amanda. I'm actually from Winnowski. Okay. Sorry. Thank you guys, I appreciate it. I first wanna address how this public forum chose not to prioritize BIPOC voices. I was made aware that this past forum on Wednesday BIPOC voices were actually cut off and white people's voices were not. And I'm not surprised by choosing to not prioritize BIPOC voices proves that Vermont is deeply rooted in the complacency of our oppression. These systems currently in place negatively impact us BIPOC folks the most. And we deserve to be prioritized. We deserve to be listened to after years of being dismissed. Wherever Monters to, and we look to you guys to create opportunities for us for true change. Obviously in policing, however, these current bills and future incremental reforms on policing is only addressing part of the problem. And we need a holistic approach to dismantle systemic racism in our state. We need to provide COVID-19 targeted relief programs to black, indigenous, and other people of color in Vermont. We need to enable an economic development and empowerment for BIPOC voices in Vermont such as adult education and job training and empowerment, transform a data, I'm sorry, reading my mouth, empowerment and support for BIPOC owned businesses. We need to fund a statewide database to track racial disparities to inform transformative data driven solutions, update the statute on population quality of life outcomes to include people of color. We need to pass, transform more transformative racial justice bills already in consideration. And again, like these are just minimal things that we can do. And I hope that you guys could take more opportunity to address this and really dismantle the systemic racism in our state. Thank you. Thank you for being with us today. Next, I have Peter Bartlow of Westford and after that, Kristi Nold of Essex Junction. So Peter, when you are ready. Hi, Peter, go ahead and unmute yourself. Peter, if you're speaking, we can't hear you. Can you hear me now? Oh, yes, I can. Okay, great. I'm also in the zoom, but I'm also on the phone, but I'll use the phone. Thank you very much, Sherry. You've done an outstanding job. I've worked with thousands of people from all over the world.  So thank you. I just wanted to briefly say that I was, I attended my 33th reunion. I was promised safety. I was attacked by a group of women and they noticed my large hand size and my large, I wear a 14-size shoe. I have an 11-inch hand. They physically attacked me. They mobbed, thrashed, attacked me. They had handcuffs. They grabbed me. They got on top of me. They were trusting things in my face. They were grabbing. They hurt me. I carried them and they said that nobody cares. I called the police. The dispatcher told me that it was my fault. I should have known better of the man. I should have been able to better handle him. I called the Vermont victims group. They called Detective Harlow, not Chief Harlow.  She threatened me, telling me that I would be sued. If I said anything, then I talked to Mr. Linney Crap, the assistant district attorney. He wouldn't do anything. He wouldn't listen to the dispatcher's call. And then I ended up getting a lawyer and I was gonna sue the people who attacked me and to try to work with the police. And then my father had an accident in his chair facility. He was featured in the front story of Seven Days, Words for Care. He was one of the people that they featured. I'm sure I ended up being involved without the whole case for many years. So I just want to let you know that this is like a gender discrimination that I'm marginalized. As a man, I had people tell me they did this to me because I'm a German first-generation American. I was told that maybe because they thought it was a homosexual. Maybe just other things. I just wanted answers and I wasn't able to get any. So... Transition to the next witness in 20 seconds. No, I'm done. So thank you just for listening. Just being able to tell my story and just being able to have you as politicians listening that there is gender discrimination against men is really appreciated. Thank you, Sarah. Thank you for being with us, Peter. I appreciate that. Next up, we have Kristi Nold of Essex Junction and after that, Roy Hill of Fairfax. So Kristi, when you are ready. Hi, thank you for having me. Can you hear me? Yes, we can. Thank you so much. As you stated, my name is Kristi Nold. I'm a resident of Essex Junction. I'm also a public school teacher in South Burlington, Vermont. This issue is one that hits close to home for me. In the past year, I've had two incidents of racial profiling in my neighborhood. This past winter, when a dear friend was pulling in and an Essex patrol car was leaving, it then took a U-turn, followed my friend to my front door and idled, at which point I got out of my house and the patrol car left. My friend and I can only assume that this happened because he was driving while black. This summer, I had two close friends coming to visit. I knew I wouldn't be home at the time of their arrival and left the house unlocked. They let me know they'd arrived. 10 minutes later, they let me know there was a patrol car idling outside the home. They felt unsafe and chose to leave my neighborhood at which point they were followed out by the police officer. I since contacted my local representatives and community justice center to learn that there are conversations that will take place about policing in Essex Junction. One of the things that concerns me is that I'm not sure any amount of anti-bias and anti-black racism training can really uproot a system of violence that I believe is inherent in our police system. I see this in my school all of the time with our school resource officers and the way that my students, my black and brown students, as well as my students with disabilities are disproportionately targeted. I also recognize the two incidents that happened in my neighborhood will not show up on any data. Those folks were not officially pulled over. It will not show up in the disproportionate incarceration rates that exist here in Vermont yet there are two more stories of harassment and intimidation. It's my hope that you will listen closely to the demands of the ACLU and the Vermont Racial Justice Alliance and I appreciate you hearing all of the stories today. Thanks for having me. Thank you for being with us, Christy. Next we will have Roy Hill, a Fairfax, and after that Alexander Enlion of Cabot. So Roy, when you are ready, go ahead. Hi, Roy, go ahead and unmute yourself. Okay, just did it. Thank you, we can hear you. Thank you. My name is Roy V. Hill, Fairfax. I am a 32 year Vermont resident. I'm on a steering committee member of the Vermont Racial Justice Alliance. I speak today because I understand the state of Vermont has invoked addressing the statistics systemic racism as a reason for calling these forms and I see that police reform is an agenda item. I have five points. I endorse Vermont's Act 54 legislative findings that our state has racial disparities across all agencies that reality includes policing irregularities, including the times I've been racially profiled and stopped by police. Secondly, I endorse realistic policy changes, including police changes, including the engagement of education and guidance from the globally respected Norway policing program. In short, I recommend systemic, sustained and funded holistic approach to tackling systemic racism in Vermont in a way that dismantles systems of oppression and create opportunities for black, indigenous and people of color across our state in particular and in law enforcement in general.  Sorry. Thirdly, I recommend ongoing respectful collaboration with the likes of Reverend Mark Hughes, Executive Director of Justice for All and the Racial Justice Alliance colleagues who have realistic proposals and immediate solutions that address all of the above. Fourthly, I recommend implementing the 10 point ACLU plan. Fifthly, I recommend the form designers here. I rec, I remind the forum designers here that Burlington leaders recently affirmed that our state can launch and financially support meaningful change. For example, the city council affirmed racism as a public health. We will need to transition to the next witness your bit over time if you are able to wrap up, please. Okay. Thank you. With the following, the, the city council recently affirmed a reparation discussion. You know, the money in your pocket, the currency says it carries that motto in God we trust. Scripture reminds us that that God dislikes injustice. I recommend scriptures Proverbs 6, starting with 15 and Romans 12 for the total. Bottom line is they tell us who carry the American currency that we can do better. And I recommend that. And I thank you for your work. Thank you for being with us, Roy. Next, we have Alexander and land of habit and after that, Skylar Wolf of Burlington. So Alexander, when you're ready. Alexander, when, welcome Alexander. Go ahead and unmute yourself. Hey, Alexander, we're ready for you to go ahead. Alexander, are you able to unmute yourself? Okay. I'm not hearing you yet. So let's see if we can go on to the next person and we'll come back to you, Alexander, if we, if we can get you unmuted. So Skylar Wolf of Burlington. And after that will be Joseph Reichman of St. John'sbury. So go ahead, Skylar. Hello, can you hear me? Yes. Welcome. Thank you. As you may, my name is Skylar Wolf and I use he, him and his pronouns. I work as the director of the Safe Space Anti-Violence Program at Pride Center of Vermont, providing social change advocacy and overseeing direct services to lesbian, gay, bisexual, transgender, queer and HIV affected survivors of violence statewide. I'm here today to urge you to embrace the ACLU's 10 point plan as well as the racial justice alliances state priorities. In the past two and a half years of working for the Safe Space Anti-Violence Program, I can only recall one survivor having a positive experience working with law enforcement. Police brutality, mis-arrest and discrimination is incredibly common for black and brown LGBTQ plus people. Police violence is so common even in the state of Vermont that police have their own section on Safe Space's incident report forms. A few examples of categories that we sometimes check off for police include entrapment, excessive force, slurs, physical violence and sexual violence. Often police are not only harmful when they respond to situations of violence but frequently they are the primary source of violence. We need to reevaluate when, why, how and how many officers are responding to situations. We cannot continue to invest in systems that are rooted in white supremacy and that have long standing histories of homophobia and transphobia. The time for reckoning and change is now. Each of us have work to do within ourselves and within our communities. We have to unlearn narratives.  Support the ACLU's 10 point plan and the Racial Justice Alliance's state priorities. Thank you for your time. Thank you, Skyler. Next we have Joseph Reichman of St. Johnsbury and after that will be Ed Pickwin of Berrytown. So Joseph, when you are ready you can unmute yourself and begin. Hi Joseph, go ahead and unmute yourself. Any words? Okay, I found it. Thank you. Can you hear me then? Yes, thank you. Hi, my name is Joseph Reichman. I'm in St. Johnsbury Vermont. I just wanted to briefly mention some issues I've seen with the police.  It's almost unbelievable. Every time I look in the paper there's some guy getting in trouble for some particular crime of various levels. But there rarely, rarely are women ever but if you go to the hospital you can witness it in real time and you could probably even ask the nurses and medical staff which are mandatory reporters. But for some reason it never seems to get into the mainstream of justice or the news. I'm kind of a late counselor and I've talked to women who've been abused and it's a multi-generational thing.  The father just got arrested according to one of the daughters and the mother is totally unconsidered and you can go up to NVRH and if you have some level of authority and get the documentation to see that. So my question is for rhetorical sense is if it's a crime for a male to do something illicit to a child why isn't it a crime for a female? There's a Matt Dillon complex where men seem to always have to be protecting and then when they particularly commit crimes it's not considered or overlooked or washed. I'm not actually sure how and I've talked to many people victims of that type of behavior too in my life. So thank you for hearing me. Thank you, Joseph. Next up we'll have Ed Paikwin and after that Eugene Bifano of Warren. So Ed, welcome and go ahead when you're ready. Okay, can you hear me? Yes, we can. Okay, hello and thank you for this opportunity to testify. I'm Ed Paikwin, the director of disability rights for Montt our state's protection and advocacy agency for people with disabilities and the state mental health care ombudsman. Implicit bias comes out most strongly when one is in a crisis mode, thinking fast and all of us carry implicit biases no matter our goodwill because of societal messages sometimes subtle, sometimes overt in the media and throughout our culture, particularly strong even among the best of us are biases regarding race and disability and particularly psychiatric disabilities. I would recommend that the committees review the 2019 report of the Mental Health Crisis Response Commission which details the case of the death of Phil Grennan, particularly noting section 12, the other view that was written by Commissioner Will de White. I won't repeat her conclusions here but I do believe you'd find them informative. In my opinion, the lessons of Phil Grennan's case include that there is a compulsion to act decisively and possibly impulsively in situations when time actually can be on your side and that proximity to danger is an enemy and distance is your friend. DRVT would advocate that use of force should be more standardized across the state and standards that consider the totality of circumstances should replace the current legal structure that judges actions only by perceived danger at the moment of conflict. Police training should focus on avoidance of danger, recognizing that safety is best assured when conflicts do not escalate. I don't believe that this conflicts with a recognition that if the immediacy of circumstances given- You're at time. So if you can, I'll give you 20 seconds to wrap up. We need to move to the next panelist. I don't believe that this conflicts with a recognition that if the immediacy of the circumstances give an officer no choice but to make a fast decision, that is different from entering a situation without regard to safety. I appreciate this opportunity. Thank you, Ed. Next we'll go to Eugene Bifano and after that, Tony Periello of Grand Isle. Eugene, go ahead when you're ready. Eugene, you'll need to unmute yourself. There you go. Hi, Gene Bifano here. Sorry for my appearance. I just had major re-engineering my shoulder and this is a trick t-shirt. One, I would have to start off by saying, I disagree with about everything I heard today based on my 76 years of experience. As a person living in Vermont for 17 years and commuting for 35, I've been a firefighter EMT for 38 years in rescue tech. I became a cop in Vermont because my ambulance service would not respond to stabbing shootings, mental health issues, and so forth. So that's why I became a cop. I never had the ambition to be a cop, but every retired person, that's what I did. I have to say categorically that almost every time I have responded to a mental health issue, and we've been quite successful here in the Valley, it is because the mental health workers had failed. They're outside saying, you guys got to get control of this individual. And I'm lucky enough that I can do that without having to use force of violence. A number of times we've had to. It is just the way life is. I disagree 100% that there's any systematic racism in the United States. In fact, I believe other than certain areas in this country that people get along. I grew up in Bronx, New York, in a multicultural environment, family of four in a one bedroom apartment, fire started to walk up. I went to a high school at 5,200 guys, half are black and Puerto Rican from the South Bronx. We got to live together because we got to learn each other. I disagree with qualified immunity. It's a joke because it doesn't protect police from prosecution. What it does do is place an extra barrier between the plaintiff's attorney in a civil suit going after a town's pocketbook. So qualified immunity does not protect cops.  They do get convicted. But this is talking civil liability. So I disagree with that. And unfortunately, I hadn't the opportunity to look at the whole 10 point plan, but I'll write you guys something because I disagree. At time, if you could wrap up so we can get to the next witness. Sure. So real quick, I disagree with qualified immunity because all that does is allow people to sue the police easier without the stepping between approving that there is no need for qualified immunity. Number two, civilian review boards around the country have become political tools and they're not really honest. Vermont does have police committees. I belong to one in Washington County. Thank you for being with us, Jean. Next, we will have Tony Periello of Grand Isle and after that, Laura Sout of Hinesburg. So Tony, when you're with us, go right ahead. Hi, can you hear me? Yes, we can. Okay. Hi, everyone. I'm Tony Periello and I'm the director of the criminal justice program at Champlain College. And as we all know, the need for improved police training has been a recurrent theme in national and local discussions about reform. And I came here today to let you know that Champlain College is preparing to submit to the Vermont Criminal Justice Training Council a proposal to develop and offer a new and modern police academy. This will be a revised version of a proposal that we had submitted last year. There are four key aspects to our proposal. First, the academy would be a commuter program and it would take place on campus in Chittenden County during the summer, which will offer a viable alternative to the residential academy in Pittsburgh and which will also very likely draw a more diverse applicant pool. Second, our proposal emphasizes the kind of training that it's being called for now. It incorporates a community and social justice lens while also aligning with the 21st century policing recommendation. And so it covers community policing, building and rebuilding trust and the use of technology and social media while also focusing on conflict resolution, de-escalation, addiction and diversity, equity and inclusion. Third, we've expertise, the expertise to create virtual training simulations for the new academy, which would take this state's police training to a new level of sophistication. And then finally, if we start planning now, we could run professional development programs in a level two academy by early 2021 and we could run a level three academy by summer 2021. So we have the facilities to pull this off. And in closing, I'd just like to say that this is one of many community and social justice programs we're developing at Champlain and I'm happy to discuss with any of the lawmakers here the academy project or any other project we're currently working on, please don't hesitate to reach out to me. Thank you very much for your time. Thank you for being with us, Tony. Next we have Laura Sough of Heinsberg and after that, Joanne Beck of Windhall. Laura, when you are ready. Hi, Laura. Hi, my name is Sough and my family comes from Asia and the indigenous people of Puerto Rico. Having spent the majority of the last decade in the deep South, I know what it feels like to be over-qualified and blatantly underpaid compared to white counterparts. I know what it's like to get pulled over to stand next to a SWAT canine vehicle and to be interrogated. I also acknowledge that my lighter skin tone has granted me the privilege with the situation always resulting with a drive safe. But in experiencing these things as an adult, I suggest that we reevaluate our taught history books. Although newer to the state, I feel like I have a lot in common with other Vermonters. I grew up in New England. I come from a lineage of farmers, carpenters and cultures ingrained with community-supported effort. With the killings of Breonna Taylor and George Floyd, I have learned a lot myself. I would like the following to marinate with you. Of the 7,000 farms in Vermont, just 17 are owned by Black families. With a Black population of 1.4% in Vermont, why are Blacks 8.5% of our prison population? Vermont participated in the sterilization of minority women from the 1920s to 1950s. How many of your parents or grandparents would have been affected if it was your race? Would you be here? As a member of the Richmond Racial Equity Group, we asked for the SRO officers to be taken out of Vermont schools as stated in the ACLU's 10 part plan. On behalf of the people who are attending our fields and milking our beloved cows, we're in support of rights of our migrant workers. I'm asking you representatives to adopt a more robust, fair and impartial policing policy when Uski and Hartford are, why can't the state? This is to make sure decisions are based on facts not identity to close the border crossing loophole, to support victims and witnesses, to protect confidentiality, to allow due process for detainees and prevent our police from becoming de facto ICE agents. And it removes any reference to 8 USC 1373. Lastly, we would like to support the passing of bills H2884, H2808, H464 and H478 laws, which would support the collection of criminal justice data, create statewide policy on deadly force, law enforcement transition to the next witness in 27. Law enforcement training on use of force, de-escalation and crossing. I can see if you can wrap up please. And a task force to examine reparations. I thank you for your time on this beautiful Sunday and working towards a brighter future for Vermont. Thank you, Sal, for being with us. Next we have Joanne Beck of Winhall and after that Calvin Mowen of Brattleboro. Joanne, go ahead and unmute yourself. Hi, Joanne, we welcome you to the meeting and just need you to unmute yourself. Hello, can you hear me? Yes, we can, welcome. All right, I'm in a not a very great location. Sorry, I'm in the hospital with my mother. So pardon me for moving around. Okay, so thank you very much for allowing me to speak. I just would like to say that we have an incredible opportunity at this time. We have the opportunity to put systems into place that truly help people rather than splinter communities in all over the state of Vermont. I am the executive director of the Arc of Southwestern Vermont. I'm a licensed clinical social worker in private practice. I would like to address the issues that we have with policing with mentally ill, disabled, intellectually disabled and handicapped children and adults when being managed, working with or being held in the custody of police. It has been to me often that children and adults have had experience, both experiences of severe abuse and harm done while in the custody of state police. Training in how to manage people with disabilities should be an ongoing educational process for policing communities. I have heard from parents and one parent in particular about a child who was on the autism spectrum having a fire hose turned on him because they lack the skills necessary, the police lack the skills necessary to help this child calm and be manageable. A man, I know of a man who was left by a state cop on his property after having his leg being crushed by a backhoe because he lived in poverty and had a developmental delay and the policemen just didn't have the time to help him. Having heard similar stories from different parents and other people, I have come to the conclusion that the only way to solve this problem is through training and the use of mental health professionals to work with police rather than using the militaristic, authoritarian policing system that we have now. If police are going to continue to be asked to... Transition to the next witness in 20 seconds if you can wrap up, please. Okay, I'm almost done, I'm almost done. Okay, if police are gonna continue to intervene in persons having difficulty with mental illness, difficult behaviors from persons with disabilities, they need to be trained and qualified for any policing to any all persons. Coursework and constant supervision in regards to mental health interventions must happen in order for police to really be accountable. Thank you so much for allowing me to speak. Thank you, Joanne. Next we'll have Calvin Mowen of Brattleboro and then Mia Schultz of Bennington. Welcome, Calvin. Hi, thanks. Thanks for having me, thanks for this opportunity. My name is Calvin Mowen, I use he, him pronouns and I identify as a psychiatric survivor and I'm also a user of mental health services. I've lived in the Brattleboro area for over eight years and during that time I have worked as an advocate for patients on locked psych wards as well as people in the community who have interactions with the mental health system. Many of them have experienced police surveillance, violence and abuse far more so when they are black or brown, LGBTQ, poor immigrants and statewide we've seen an alarming number of people killed by police in just the past few years while they were in some kind of emotional or psychological crisis. And reviewing those incidents and deciding on policy changes has largely excluded people with psychiatric labels from that process. We will tell you that the most effective and immediate thing we can do to keep from being killed, injured and further traumatized is to get police out of mental health care and crisis response, out of so-called wellness checks, out of emergency rooms, out of hospital transport and not sending in social workers who work with them but actually not involving cops at all, not more police training. There has been little evidence that crisis intervention training is at all effective and officers have fatally shot disabled people after receiving this training. Instead, we need mobile crisis teams that provide actual support, not just assessment, we need a place to go and someone to talk to not to be locked up, restrained or forced drug. And above all, I must insist that those of us impacted the most, psychiatrically labeled and otherwise disabled people, neurodivergent people, BIPOC, LGBTQ, poor people, drug users, houseless people, migrants, that we not be just included but centered in policy decisions involving police. Don't just invite but ensure our participation in shaping public safety policies and budgets. And one more quick comment, I would invite you to look at the proposal recently accepted by the Brattleboro Select Board as an example of how we can lift up marginalized voices in the service of real change. Thank you. Thank you, Calvin. Next, we will have Mia Schultz of Bennington. And after that, we will go to Irina Smyrnava of Colchester. So Mia Schultz, when you're ready. Okay, thank you, I'm not here. Sorry, I have to break up. Hi, my name is Mia Schultz. I am a resident and homeowner in Bennington. My family moved here five years ago. Since moving here, my family and my children have experienced racism in schools and just living, just like no other place that we have ever lived before. Because of some of the events that have happened to us, I have been a voice and an advocate for others in the community. There was a void in this community of people to be heard and there still is, but I have been privileged enough to have been a safe space for many people of color to tell their stories. I've heard from hardworking men who are used to being stopped and searched weekly while they moved back and forth to work. I've heard from parents who explain how the Bennington police have handcuffed and searched their children, their children for fitting this description. I have heard stories of being harassed so constantly every time that they leave their home, they just simply gave up and they stay home. I have heard of police coming to doors after people have already been home and insisting to search cars and vehicles and giving them tickets for traffic violations that they thought they saw them committing earlier. These are stories and testimonies of people who won't be here today. They won't be here today because they're scared and they're rightfully so scared. Speaking up as you know, this sometimes makes you more of a target and it certainly does in Bennington. It wasn't until recently, maybe a month or two ago that there was even a mechanism in place to file a complaint to the Bennington police department. When that mechanism was put in place, it was only a link to report it directly to the police department. Recently, that complaint system was put to a test by our local governing body of the select board and that failed the person who made the complaint. They publicized the complaint and they publicized all of the personal information of that person, including their name and address. This further, like that. The transition to the next witness in about 20 seconds, if you can wrap up please. I implore you to hear the voices of Black and Brown residents. I hope that you bring this testimony with you to help craft laws, enforce leadership in Bennington and all over the state to protect and serve the entire community, not just whites, just gender, male, class, able-bodied people. Thank you. Thank you for being with us, Mia. Now I'd like to invite Irina Smyrnava of Colchester and after that will be Cori Orphan of Burlington. Irina, thank you for being with us. Go ahead and... Hi, can you hear me? Yes, we can. Well, thank you for the opportunity to speak. As you can hear, I'm an immigrant. I came to the United States in 1998. I was Burlington resident for over 20 years. I do have a couple of speaking points regarding some of the proposed changes to the police as it tells of the decisions being rushed. So after raising three boys here in this country in the public school system, I believe that removing of the school resource officer job is a big mistake. Police presence on school premises helps to prevent criminal activities, especially among senior youth, and also helps to maintain overall discipline on school premises. I'm also a guardian to a family member with a severe mental health diagnosis. And this is the reason for me to be in touch with the police and Harvard Center social services on the regular basis for over 14 years. So I want to say that social workers jobs are very different from those of the police. Social services cannot replace what the police do. Harvard Center in Burlington only works with their customers who are already in their system and they can legally work with families only if family has legal power. In our case, it took over seven years to obtain the guardianship. During this time, the police consistently were the only place where I was able to get real health, empathy, and some good advice, practical advices, and protection, which I'm very grateful for. Harvard Center crisis line is answering service only in Burlington. They are not the same as 911 police who work with everyone. Harvard Center social workers still need police help when they face violence mental health diagnosis. They cannot do patrol jobs the police does. These change would hurt many people with mental health issues who are not in the system yet and many of who are homeless. Police officers do desperately need more training on the mental health issues and the escalation techniques. Better communication is needed. Next witness in 20 seconds, if you can wrap up please. Sure, better communication is needed among all local police agencies, state police, and social services organizations to make our lives better. Successful reform needs funds, not defunding. Thank you. Thank you for being with us, Irina. Now we have Corey or font of Burlington. And after that is Stephanie Gomery of Montpelier. Welcome, Corey. Go ahead and unmute yourself, Corey. So I see Corey is calling in. Do we have a co-host of the meeting who can, okay, there you go, Corey. Hey there, can you all hear me? Yes, we can. Hi, my name is Corey or font. Thanks for getting the opportunity to talk to you today. One quick thing, language involved in one of these bills on regards to police use of force, generally operating under ability, opportunity, and jeopardy. I wanted to switch the word jeopardy with a moment here, not intent essentially assuming that an officer can read someone's mind and understand what they want to do. I would say we need to change intent back to jeopardy. In addition to that, when you look at police officers and policing right now, especially in our current climate, we really need the best and the brightest in this profession. And when you review the test one we have today, police officers are listening, police agencies are listening and they want to engage the communities and they do want to help. And I think it's important that as communities recognizing that these are community members, trying to do their best for the community that we need to also do, we can to not only retain those best and brightest, but also to incentivize bringing the best and brightest into these professions, especially during these trying times. We're so much is asked of such a dynamic profession as is. More training is great, more community engagement is great, more open communication is great. And I think it'd be good if we have better, I guess understanding what police officers do on a day-to-day basis with how they work with the mental health system, with how they work with fire and e-mess, how there are many instances where fire and e-mess and mental health agencies are able to make contact with people because there are officers there that can render a situation safe and give them the ability to help people, to save people and give them that safe space to get people of resources that they need. So I just want you to keep these things in your mind as we're moving forward, as we are engaging our communities that we are talking to our law enforcement agencies and bringing them into the discussion on how to move forward, not better as a state because right now, Vermont, we enjoy one of these to wrap up, you'll need to wrap up in 20 seconds so we can move to the next witness please.  Thank you for giving me the opportunity to speak to all today. Thank you for being with us, Corey. Next, we have Stephanie Gomery of Montpelier and after that, Mary Cox of Burlington. Welcome, Stephanie. Hi, everyone. My name is Stephanie Gomery from Montpelier. I just wanted to commit it to say that I'm, though I appreciate you have not caught anyone off today and you've given fair notice that the time is running out, I am really disappointed that you have not been open to deliberately prioritizing the voices of people of color in these forums because you can't invoke systemic racism as the reason for calling these forums in the first place and then not make a deliberate effort to bring the voices of impacted people to the forefront. It's no excuse to say that the speaking order is first come first serve because that's a colorblind approach and it does not create equity. I worry that if we can't get this down in the process of these meetings themselves, we're going to struggle making actual change. At the same time, I know this is a learning opportunity and I hope that as we have more of these forums, you'll take this feedback to heart and make changes to the process. Now what I wanna say is, as a white person, I know we are all white people are complicit in systemic racism to various extents, but I also know we don't have to be, we have a choice and you as legislators have power as well as a choice. You can change the policies in Vermont and make a mark in history and change the systems that we're struggling with. And so while it's important that you're focusing on law enforcement, as we know, this is just the tip of the iceberg. It might be the most visible symptom of a 400-year-old disease, but it's just one of an entire sick body of symptoms to treat. So that's why I stand with the Racial Justice Alliance urging me to take the following policy steps to improve the lives of people of color in concrete ways. That includes providing targeted COVID-19 relief for black people and other people of color because black Vermonters are 10 times more likely to be infected with COVID-19. I urge you to fund a statewide database to track racial disparities, pass transformative racial justice bills that are already in consideration, which includes staffing the racial equity office and pursuing reparations. These are things we can do in the near term to improve the lives of people of color in Vermont. I also urge you to pass bills already in consideration to provide civilian oversight. And of course, when it comes to criminal justice reform, embracing a 10-point plan outlined by the ACLU. These are some policy changes that you have the opportunity and power to address in the near term. I wanna seriously ask you what you're actually willing to do to prove to us that you actually care about fixing systemic racism. We're at time and we'll need to wrap up in 20 seconds so we can get to the next witness. Sure. Myself and others have been talking about concrete things you can do, many of which have been outlined by the Vermont Racial Justice Alliance. And I just wanna let you know that we'll be counting on you to do these things. Thank you. Thank you for being with us, Stephanie. Next we have Mary Cox of Burlington and Ian Steenberg of Winooski. So Mary, when you're ready. Yes, can you hear me? Yes, we can. Okay, thank you. So my name is Mary Cox. I'm a resident in Burlington. I'd like to address H464. I'm a family member of persons with mental health conditions. I'd like to talk about the intersection of policing with the mental health community based on my own experience. 10 years ago, when I called the police to help with a family member experiencing a serious mental health crisis, the police themselves sometimes escalated the situation. They made it worse. There have also been several tragedies in Burlington over the last 10 years when police responded to a mental health crisis. Today, things are different. Things have changed dramatically. In the community, we now have first call. However, first call, which are mental health responders, they're a little bit understaffed and especially like when it was during the beginning months of COVID, they were just pretty overwhelmed. They will not respond if someone, if the person themselves does not want the help, they will not respond. They won't respond if somebody seems dangerous in any way. They say, call the police. And so their level of response is a little bit limited to those who voluntarily want their help and are calm enough to help gracefully. Street outreach is really important. They're trained mental health workers, but they will not respond without police backup because they feel like that their own safety could be in danger. The Burlington Police Department has really beeped up their crisis response through de-escalation training. They've started a community policing model collaborating with the mental health community and hired a more diverse group of new officers. Their work is a little bit in their embassy, but I think that the collaboration between the Burlington Police Department and the mental health community will help things stay on the right track. This spring, my family member was like in a major crisis and we had to call the police a number of times and the police came and when they came, they were able to de-escalate the situation. They were able to be supportive. There was no force. There was no coercion. Transition to net goodness, any questions? You can wrap up, please. So I've seen firsthand the changes and how those changes impact a situation where a person is in actual crisis. I've submitted written comments with some specific recommendations about expanding 4.6.4 to include mental health and collaborative efforts. Thank you very much. I appreciate that, Mary. Thank you for being with us. Next we'll have Ian Steenberg of Winooski and after that Lorraine Zulum of Essex. Hey, can you hear me? Hi, Ian, welcome. Hi, my name is Ian Steenberg, white Jewish Winooski resident. First, I'd like to express my appreciation for being given the time to speak as well as my disappointment and lack of surprise at this body for not prioritizing BIPOC voices who are disproportionately affected by Vermont's racist policing. I'm calling in to lend my support to the legislative priorities of the Racial Justice Alliance and say that while changing the public safety apparatus is crucial in making a more equitable society, it is not enough. If you actually wish to address systemic racism in Vermont, you must take a more holistic approach. This includes providing COVID targeted relief to BIPOC communities in Vermont, enabling economic development and empowerment for BIPOC folks, funding a statewide database to track racial disparities, passing transformative racial justice bills such as staffing racial equity office H937 and reparations H478, providing effective and transparent civilian oversight of law enforcement and embracing the ACLU 10 point plan. This is a huge opportunity to make meaningful, positive material change in the lives of some of the most marginalized in Vermont's communities. And I urge you to act with the guidance of the Racial Justice Alliance and BIPOC voices. Thank you. I yield the rest of my time. Thank you, Ian. Next, we'll have Lorraine's allume of Essex and after that, Sarah Parker Givens from Montpelier. So welcome Lorraine. Hi, thank you. Not sure if you can hear me or not. Yes, we can. Oh, great. Thank you all for your time. I just wanted to call in as a resident of Essex to say that I do support the ACLU 10 point plan for police reform. And I also see this as a great opportunity for us to recreate a public safety system that hasn't really been changed for many, many years. We're in the 21st century and it really requires rethinking. And I would like to also say that some of these, some of the plans, part of that 10 point plan would also help our police force who are overburdened and burn out. And I hear a lot of complaints from them too. They're not trained or well equipped to handle a lot of the problems in our community. I would also like to see a much more robust database. I don't know if you have all checked out the database that we have, but it really leaves a lot to be desired in terms of, I can't even tell how many times the same person might have been pulled over. And clearly there is a racial issue going on. And I also, I'm saddened that we did not push those people who are most affected to the forefront. I know in our own community, we have some issues that go on and you can see the failures in the system right across the street from my sister where there are a number of calls over and over and over and over and over and nothing changes. And that's clearly a failure of the system. So there's gotta be a better way. We just keep doing the same thing and we'll get the same result. I also think that if we lead the nation in these kind of changes, we will attract more people here. We need to welcome diversity. We are way beyond the pale in terms of our lack of diversity. Thank you very much for your time and really great that you guys are doing this. Thank you so much. Thank you for being with us Lorraine. Next we'll have Sarah Parker-Givans of Montpelier after that Susan Shownfield of South Burlington. So Sarah, when you are ready, welcome Sarah. Go ahead and unmute yourself. Hello, my name is Sarah Parker-Givans and I live in Montpelier. I'm here to voice my support for the Racial Justice Alliance's priorities for Vermont which include providing COVID-19 targeted relief for black, indigenous, and other people of color here in Vermont, enabling economic development and empowerment for BIPOC in Vermont, such as adult education and job training, funding a statewide database to track racial disparities to inform transformative data-driven solutions, passing transformative racial justice bills already in consideration. When it comes to tracking criminal justice reform, providing effective and transparent civilian oversight of law enforcement and pass bills already in consideration and embracing the ACLU 10 point plan. Finally, I urge you to take a holistic and comprehensive approach to tackling systemic racism in Vermont. Thank you. Thank you, Sarah. Next, we'll have Susan Schoenfield of South Burlington and after that, Patrick Hartnett of South Burlington. Welcome, Susan. Hi, thanks very much. I also want to strongly support the input from the Vermont Racial Justice Coalition and Justice for All. The issue of prioritizing the voices of black, indigenous, and people of color is an important one. I would have gladly seated my time for that and maybe you could consider having another hearing that focuses on that. The Vermont Racial Justice Alliance has put forward several pieces of legislation over the past several years that have provided a just great guide points of where we can go and I know some of those have been passed and I would encourage always listening to that voice. I would like to speak specifically to the issue of data. I am retired in the last several years from working 25 years with the Vermont Department of Health as an epidemiologist. A large part of that professional role is understanding the importance to if you want to handle public problems to and you want to understand them, you need to know what data to collect. You need to collect it. You need to analyze it and you need to release it so that it's apparent to everyone. I believe that there's systemic racism in all areas of our society, including law enforcement and a way to demonstrate that is to collect the correct data and make it public and make your decisions based on that. And I do want to acknowledge that some of that data is not collected as a woman pointed out earlier about things that were not reported. In addition to House 464 that discusses the importance of data collection, the ACLU also discusses it and points out that it's not just a matter of data for police stops, traffic stops and use of force in that, but it pertains to our understanding the disproportionate effect of people of color from data we collect from the correction system and the courts and just throughout our society. So I see my time is up. Support the ACLU 10 points in their smart justice program and the work of the Vermont Racial Justice Coalition. Thank you. Thank you so much for that. I appreciate it. Next, we'll have Patrick Hartnett of South Burlington and after that, Dave Richardson of Windsor. Hello, can you hear me? Yes, we can. Hi, good evening. My name is Patrick Hartnett. I'm the president of the Chinning County fraternal order of police. We're falling to the national fraternal order of police and our organization is more than 200 officers in the state of Vermont. I would say in regards to data collection, we would agree this information would be beneficial. I understand throughout this country, there's been several high profile incidents that have brought an emotional level of response concerning the future of policing. The current rally cries to the fund the police. What is concerning to us is how defunding is going to help increase public safety and how it would be implemented without jeopardizing public safety. Bill S-124 mandates the statewide use of body camera. My agency alone spends roughly $100,000 a year just on storage of video evidence. And I understand how small agencies are going to be able to afford the upfront costs as well as the long-term expenses while we're trying to be defunded. In S-124 as well, H-464, there's language for more training for police officers. We do not know a single officer in this profession that wouldn't want more training, but training costs money. Again, the training budget for my agency has been reduced by approximately 80%. For us to argue at a state level for more mandatory training while cities and towns argument for smaller budgets, it's counterintuitive. Furthermore, officers need to continue their training well after the academy. No officer I know goes to work wanting or expecting to use deadly force. There is concern with S-119 section with prohibiting neck restraints. Neck restraints are a tool that a properly trained officer can fall back in a deadly force and dire circumstance. I have watched and personally experienced weapon failure as these are tools. No officers would be criminalized when they use these techniques and justify deadly force situations. Furthermore, I see this as an unfortunate step in the wrong directions based on emotions. I feel Vermont's following other state's footsteps. New York City has already has 18 agencies suing because of poorly written laws. We'll need to listen to the next witness if you can wrap up in 20 seconds, please. Yep, I understand there's a lot going on, but please go through this with clear minds and not just be a trending topic in the US. Thank you for your time. Thank you for being with us, Patrick. Next, I have Dave Richardson of Windsor and after that, Jessica Ryan LeBlanc of Woodstock. Welcome, Dave. Hi, I have read the four bills being considered by the legislature. They consist of incremental changes to Vermont's policing. I believe we need to address the issue of law enforcement in Vermont at a macro level. Swift work needs to be done to massively restrict law enforcement's ability and opportunity to do harm to its citizens, particularly BIPOC residents. We need to be working toward an end goal of abolishing the police and establishing new ways of keeping Vermonters safe with a focus on creating, funding and utilizing community-based services. The current system of law enforcement is deeply rooted in white supremacy. It is a broken system engineered to serve and protect some at the expense of others and needs to be dismantled. BIPOC voices need to be amplified and centered as this vital and urgent issue is addressed. And on that note, I yield the rest of my time. Thank you, Dave. Next, I'd like to invite Jessica Ryan LeBlanc of Woodstock. Welcome, Jess. Go ahead and unmute yourself. Hi, guys. Welcome. My name is Jessica Ryan LeBlanc. I am a survivor of childhood abuse. The involvement of law enforcement in my life ended the violence for me, giving me an opportunity as an adult to pay it forward by choosing a career in law enforcement. My hope in doing so is to afford someone else the same chance at a second life that I was given. We fight for the voiceless seeking justice for all victims of crime, providing assistance to those in mental health crisis and try as best we can to make our community safer. We ask that before any snap decisions regarding defunding occur or before you change your abolished laws regarding qualified immunity, that you remember that in taking vows to protect and serve our communities, we promise to place the safety of others ahead of our own. We promise to run towards danger in spite of fear so you can sleep soundly at night. With honor, we carry the emotional burden that comes with hearing the story of every victim and facing evil that most cannot imagine. We as a law enforcement community are appalled by the senseless murder of George Floyd at the hands of a corrupt man and by the silence of those he supervised. We understand and agree that change does need to occur, but making laws banning choke holds, a maneuver we are not taught or encouraged to use as part of our use of force trainings is an ineffective knee jerk reaction based on a lack of knowledge and is nothing more than political grandstanding. Again, we agree that change needs to occur, but not at the risk of the safety of our communities and not without discussions based on research and not fear and desperation. We hope that wiser heights will prevail through meaningful conversation from all sides. As humans and citizens of this great country, we need to band together in the common interest of equality and justice for all, ending the us versus that mentality the media is so content to promote. Hate begets hate. We'll transition to the next witness if you can wrap up in 20 seconds please.  Thank you. Thank you for being with us Jess. Next I will invite Abel Luna of Burlington and after that Kim Horne and Marcy of Williston. Hi everyone. My name is Abel Luna. I'm an organizer with my grand justice and I'm also a person of color. I'm glad to be here joining other voices of color and people of color in Vermont in shed and light in the reality that we're facing in the case and just wanna mention that we need to recognize that Vermont is a white state and the systems that are set up work for the white communities. And I've been witnessing that for the past hour and a half as our voices, you know, our time gets shortened and we, you know, aren't able to put it express what we think in the case of the migrant community here we were excluded from every single support during the pandemic financial support and access to healthcare. So therefore we're demanding that the governor feels God set aside some money to make sure that communities of color and black indigenous and other sort of color, you know, get some assistance during this pandemic time. And also we fought at the state house to pass legislation to migrant communities but we didn't win with none of that was able to happen. Instead there was a big no yet millions of dollars went out to build our businesses and agencies. So we need to make sure that we need to act now in order and support the demands and the racial justice alliance. Yeah, and also we need to enable economic development and power for people of color in Vermont, such as adult education, job training, empowerment and support the black people of color on businesses. And we need to fund a statewide database to track racial disparities to inform transformative data-driven solutions. We also need to support the passing of bill H937, H478, and tackling criminal justice reform to provide effective transparency beyond oversight of the enforcement and pass bill that are already in consideration. And also embrace the tampon plan aligned by the ACLU and indoors by the racial justice alliance and other communities of color came to the state of Vermont. And it's important as a person of color, I've experienced with police officers having been a positive one. In addition to the next witness, if you can wrap up, please. In the case of migrant communities, when we have an encounter with the police, it turns into a deportation. Thank you for your time. And hopefully you guys can hear our voices and take that into account. Thank you. Thank you, Able. Next we have Kim Horneng-Marcy Williston and after that Ben Edgerly Walsh of Montpelier. So Kim, welcome. Thank you all for this hearing. I'm learning a lot. I just retired end of June as a United Methodist pastor in Vermont. And as a pastor, I was required to attend a day long training on racism in 2019. And I've had access to many other trainings. This means I know more than I used to know, but I also know that I need to keep learning a lot more. It's too easy for white people to fall back into unconscious or overt bias to underestimate the costs of racism and how racism invades all of our institutions and systems at all levels. Therefore, I recommend that we mandate not just training for police, but for all elected officials and for everyone involved in the justice system and all who serve on the boards of review that some of these proposed laws are creating. One and done training is not going to solve this and we've heard several people attest to that. It's not just police that need reform, retraining and renewal, it's all of us and all institutions and systems at all levels. And since our focus in this part of the hearing is on the justice system, let us not forget all levels of that system. Vermont, the first state to outlaw slavery is now the worst state of all 50 and percent of African-Americans we imprison. Fighting racism cannot end with legislation aimed at police. Thank you for an excellent start and I hope to see efforts to end racism at all levels of our justice system and state institutions and systems. Thank you. Thank you, Kimberly. I believe that Ben Edgerly Walsh has been bumped out of the meeting momentarily. So we will skip next to Marty Guzman of West Dover. And after that we'll go to Jamie Kontoise of Putney and we will come back to Ben if we find him back in the meeting. So Marty, go ahead. Marty, if you are looking for you on the list, we have two names in the attendees list who don't match folks that are on the registrant list, which makes me think that maybe they need to rename themselves. And Marty was here earlier. So if you are Marty and you and your name is not correct on your tile, please go ahead and change that. All right, if we have Jamie Kontoise, we could go to Jamie and we'll try to come back to the other folks who were unable to. Hi, Jamie, go ahead. Hi. Here we go, welcome. Hi, thanks for having me. I'm Jamie Kontoise in the town of Putney and I was really appreciative to see that there's this opportunity to speak about our interactions with police over the years. I've done a number of anti-racism studies over the years and I'm currently on the Equity and Inclusion Committee for the town of Putney. The reason that I wanted to participate today was because in the town of Putney on July 22nd, we had racist graffiti that was spray-painted in front of the postal office in Main Street in downtown. That happened the same night for the same morning that that happened in Jamaica and New Fane and Brattleboro with the same message. The message was BLM is racist. And for some, it was a benign message. For others, it was a really clear message that was aggressive and alarming. We immediately organized and had quite a few people, I think maybe 150 show up for a silent vigil that evening to demonstrate that we weren't interested, that we are not a community that is silent in the face of hate. The concern I have is that in that process, I reached out to the investigating police at the Wyndham County Sheriff's Office, the Vermont State Police and the Brattleboro Police Department. And I was surprised when I was interviewed or spoken to by one of the investigating officers. This officer and I know each other, we live in a small town and the officers when they came over to speak with me about the incident informed me that their running theory was that the people who were supportive of Black Lives Matter were the ones who perpetrated the crime. And so I'm concerned that in the discussion I had with that officer- Let's move to the next witness if you can wrap up in 20 seconds, please. Yes, the thing that shocked me in my interaction with that officer and in some subsequent conversations is that the victims of the crime were blamed for being the perpetrators of the crime. I've since had several conversations with folks in the community, but it showed me that after a number of years of doing the work that we've done and really working towards anti-bias support for local police, that we're in a place where we still have very biased policing going on in our community. Thank you, Ms. Konthwa. Thank you for being with us today. Next, I will go back to Ben Edgerly Walsh. And after that, we will go to Adam Zander on Mayan. Go ahead, Ben. Hi there, apologies for my technical difficulties. I'm hoping this is working at this point. Good afternoon, or I guess early evening at this point, my name is Ben Edgerly Walsh, and I'm both a member and a staffer for V-PURG. I know many of you have heard of V-PURG advocates before say that when testifying, we strive to represent our 25,000 plus members and supporters in every corner of the state. That's even more true today because we heard from a lot of our members who do not identify as black, indigenous, or people of color who strongly support police reform that they opted not to testify today to give space to BIPOC Vermonters and other Vermonters who are directly affected by these issues. So I will do my best to represent them in lieu of you hearing from them directly. The main thing that I wanted to drive home today is that we're joining the ACLU, Justice for All, and a number of other organizations and supporting the 10-point plan that you've heard about repeatedly. Simply put, from where we're sitting, a system that marginalizes, discriminates, commits violence against people based on the color of their skin is not in the public interest. We should have stated that at an organization and not just individuals years ago, but we're sitting at today. The bills you have in front of you and the 10-point plan start towards police reform, which is of course just one aspect of dismantling systemic racism. We appreciate that you are starting on that in earnest this legislative session in the closing days and look forward to working with you on much bigger policies in the coming months and years. The last thing I wanted to share is just a personal anecdote. My son is black. I never had conversations with my parents about how to interact with the police growing up. That's a luxury that he is not going to have. He's a big kid and statistically speaking, he's going to be seen as an adult in the very near future by members of police and other people in authority. So I want to just wrap by saying, thank you for hearing from me from so many BIPOC from honors, please support the 10-point plan and the Racial Justice Alliance's state priorities. Thank you for being with us, Ben. Next, I'd like to invite Alexander and Lan of Cabot and after that, we will go to, hold on, to Sean Pratt of Bennington. So Alexander, welcome. Hello, can you hear me? Yes, we can. Welcome, Alexander. Oh, wonderful. I beat the technical difficulties. I just want to start this by saying I'm a retired mental health worker, case manager, clinician and therapist for 20 years and I spent 14 years as a state contractor to work with people for the Violent Fender Program. I want to say that the first thing important to me about this is that I lost someone I had cared for for 20 years last year in a Montpelier shooting. I say that not to blame anyone, in fact, most explicitly to not to blame anyone, but to point out that what we're talking about here is not a casual issue. It's about life and death for a lot of people. I think there's a separation of interests and we're hearing it today. There's an unwritten understanding and mental health that one of the first rules is protect the people who own the stores from the mentally ill people. It's not talked about, it's not sanctioned, but it's a fact and I can testify to it. We need to honor all the needs, not just those who have perceived decision makers or people who can review our behavior or whether we're police or citizens. We need to create a process in which everyone can participate and which has enough transparency to be of benefit to the people around our community. We cannot sit at home, any of us, and take for granted that the police are gonna take care of everything and then only appear to criticize them. And we cannot assume that because they're police, they're appropriate authorities, healthy people, and will always act within the limits of the law because it's not true. I think I heard a lot of blaming today. Fortunately, most of it was fairly muted, not all, but I wanna say that police can't just get a badge and get trust and respect. And if they don't have trust and respect, all they have left is violence.  And I hope we can do that. If I can make a contribution, I would be more than glad to do that. Thank you for letting me speak and for your time. Thank you, Alexander. Next we'll go to Sean Pratt of Bennington. And after that, Chinlayo Asana, so Sean, welcome. Can everybody hear me? Yes, we can, welcome. Hey, welcome, guys. How you doing? I wanna start off by just saying, we got a long way to go, but I'm gonna talk a little bit about what I went through. Okay, my name is Sean Pratt. I have lived in Bennington, Vermont for over 20 years.  I was arrested in the cues of a crime that I did not commit. My name and photo was splashed all over the newspapers and I was humiliated for a crime that I'd never committed. After a proper investigation was completed, it was confirmed that I did not commit that crime. But the damage was done. I had lost my job, my reputation, even my children, even it has taken me years to restore this and I still deal with ramifications from this. In addition to this, the Bennington Police Department has targeted me, harassed me for many years. I was a single dad for years, which means I was a sole provider for my son. This required transportation. I was stopped so many times. I owed so many money. I owed so much money that I was a never-ending process to finally get my license straightened out. I am also a community advocate. I help people get through the criminal justice system after they have been targeted by police. I have only done this because of what has happened to me.  Please listen to the voices for the most impacted before making laws that impact all of us. I also urge to act with the recommendation of the Racial Justice Alliance. And let me just say people, okay? Because I was here that man talk about his kid earlier, right? Yeah, you're right. They're gonna look at him as black, okay? And to the woman Jamie earlier, she talked about what was going on over there towards the east side of Vermont. There's a lot of white gangs over there, okay? They're also white supremacists because they're spraying up a friend of mine's name, Jake Brown, called up all the time. And the Brattleboro Police Department isn't doing the thing. To the next witness, if you can wrap up. Okay, I'm gonna wrap up now, okay? What's more importantly, up in Burlington, my friend's body is missing. Keith Gaston, say his name. Keith Gaston, he said he jumped in the river and they can't find his body. So that's another problem. Black bodies does not matter. If it did, okay, then they would find those bodies. The man, the black man in barrier, okay? So we need to get this together, the people, all right? Now yield from that. Thank you, Sean. Next I have Chinlayo Asanya. And after that, we are going to circle back and make sure that there are no other witnesses waiting in the attendees list who haven't been called on yet. So Chinlayo, welcome. Have we found Chinlayo? Welcome. Can you hear me now? Yes, we can. Okay, good evening. My name is Chinlayo Asanya. As a BIPOC voice, I stand with the Vermont Racial Justice Alliance. I like to start by saying that what occurred last Wednesday is formed by silencing BIPOC voices was a prime example of systemic racism. And it was further perpetuated right before our eyes. If you want to facilitate change, you need to listen to the voices that will help create the change. Systemic racism is a root cause of inequalities by a BIPOC individual face in society daily and Vermont is not exempt from the issue by any means. While criminal justice and policing reform are important, incremental reform of criminal justice and policing only solves part of the problem. We need to take a more holistic and comprehensive approach. With that said, I ask the state to prioritize the following legislature, provide COVID-19 targeted relief for black indigenous and other people of color in Vermont, enable economic development and empower for BIPOC in Vermont such as adult education and job training, empowerment and support of BIPOC owned businesses and et cetera, fund a statewide database to track racial disparities to inform transformative data-driven solutions. Data speech volumes, let us use this data to make better form and decisions to better serve our BIPOC residents of the state of Vermont. Next, update the statute on population quality of life outcomes to include people of color, statute three, VSA 2311, past transformative racial justice bills already in consideration bill 937, staffing racial equality office, bill H-478, reparations in tracking criminal justice reform, providing effective and transparent civilian oversight for law enforcement and past bills already in consideration, bill H-646 and bill 284. And lastly, embrace a 10 point plan outlined in the ACLU and endorsed by the Vermont Racial Justice Alliance, Justice for All and among other groups in the state of Vermont. I urge you to further prioritize BIPOC voices. Thank you for listening. Thank you, Chanella, for being with us. I'd now like to loop back to Randy Wade, who was trying to put his hands on his notes from earlier. So, Randy, if you are available, we would love to give you some time to go through your points with us. Welcome. Go ahead and unmute. Yes. Unfortunately, can I resume this later? I have my plumber just showed up to my, I had to try to see if I could return to this. Yes, yes, come in. So, sorry, I probably... We will definitely, we would love to speak with you at another time. Yeah, I mean, I could do it later. I just have my plumber right here. Sorry, I had to resume this, resume me, sorry. Great. Kathy Voigt Walsh is with us. So, I would like to invite Kathy next. Do you hear me? Yes, we can, welcome. Okay, so I just was opening my Zoom thinking I was, I'm gonna let me close it so you don't get feedback. Hi, thank you so much for giving me this opportunity. I just wanna say that term policing, it reflects a sense of power and control that has its origins in the history of racism, of the history of systemic racism. It comes from the time of slavery on Jim Crow. So, we need to keep that in mind when we're trying to make changes in policing. So, what we're talking about, what everybody's talking about is changing up the framework to take care of people and community and the inherent racism in the system makes that hard. So, I hope you'll keep that in mind. I'm only here really to support my black colleagues and colleagues of color. And I'm very glad that some have been able to speak. But if you recall, we had a lot of, we had a lot of pop-up testing centers throughout the state for COVID, but until we actually had an outbreak in Manuski, we didn't have a testing site in Manuski and we didn't have one in Burlington. In both of those communities, they were high risk. And I would like to compare that to this committee. If you don't have enough people of color talking to you and people feel that their voices aren't being heard because they don't have enough time, I urge you to go find them, to ask for input from the communities that are serving people of color and the communities that are advocating for people of color and find them to get the feedback that you need. Okay, so I am also in support of the legislation of the Vermont Racial Justice Alliance. And as you know, I don't believe anybody has mentioned it right now, but this legislation was proposed at the beginning of this biennium and we're so fortunate that COVID has given us an opportunity to work on it more. So there are several pieces of legislation, not the least of which. I'm going to transition to the next witness in 20 seconds, if you can wrap up, please. Yes, I'd be happy to wrap up, not the least of which legislation will support the not commissioner, but the racial justice, you know the office versus Anna works. So please support the Vermont Racial Justice Alliance legislation and also the 10 points of the ACL. Thank you so much for your time. Thank you. I believe the last attendee who's with us who hasn't yet testified is Marty Garcia. So if we can welcome Marty Garcia. Hello. Hi, thank you for joining us. Hello, okay, I guess I have something I wanted to read and I did want to put something like a little poster in the chat and so let me just read a few things. And I know that one of those entrepreneurs who came to Vermont to kind of work at home and use the internet and all that. So that changed really quick, but it's okay. I love Vermont and I really identify with a lot of the people especially the Bennington thing.  This is called statements of responsibility. Freedom and the right to self-determine is natural and lawful and is inherent in all living things and does not regard state of mind condition, nation. So we are one, all living systems are free. The value of living systems is unlimited. We're equal in value to each other. And I think that's what everybody's trying to say. Yes, all living systems who violate the principles of allowing other living systems to be valued they are pardoned upon correction. And law enforcement is kind of a natural thing, but it's generally community based. I mean, I would think that when people form community like an organic community that is formed, there are ways of communities coming together. I think very local is where it needs to be at. And if you can somehow bring the money local and allow communities, 100 houses or, I mean, some of these towns are extremely small and they're not even within earshot of each other's houses. So the community is to find themselves by their geographic location and a lot of the common customs, there's that.  I was a licensed taxi driver in Worcester as the... I actually stopped this. I'm gonna have to ask you to wrap up in 20 seconds, please. Okay, I actually gave up marijuana so I could transport the mentally ill. And it was my pleasure to be the one cab that would do this. It wasn't as much money, but I did it because of the very reasons that mentally ill people need that a relay. And so that's my input, keep it local, bring it local. It's not... Thank you so much, Martha. We appreciate you being with us tonight. And thank you to all the Vermonters who took the time to testify this afternoon and evening and also at the previous two public hearings. This isn't the last time we will be hearing from the voices of Vermonters. And so if there are points that you wish had been made that have not yet been made, please do reach out to us when we go back into session on August 25th, we will begin some more work on these issues. So thank you all to the committee members who came out tonight from their virtual Zoom rooms to join us for the meeting. And thank you to the staff who are working feverishly in the background to make sure that we get people moved into the virtual witness chair. That's all we have for witnesses this evening. And once again, if you want to watch any of the hearings from any of the three days, you can find them on the legislative website and you can watch them on YouTube. So...