I'm going to call the finance committee meeting of September 13 to order at 335. And we have most of the members of the committee present. So I'm going to start by doing a couple of formalities and making sure that members of the committee can fully participate and introduce or have Sharon introduce everybody from the library, but easy as to just do it that way. To proceed. This meeting is being held by remote means, pursuant to an extension of the open meeting law exception that was enacted by the legislature. That does permit us to have remote meetings. And we have made it every effort to make sure that public and fully participate in this meeting. So with that being said, I'm going to first go through the. I just want to remind everybody that this meeting is being reported. So just quickly through the members of the finance committee first, just let us know that you've heard me and you can hear it and confirm we can hear you. So my first name only Lynn. Present. Bob. Present. Matt. Present. Bernie. Present. Kathy. Michelle. Present. And I think that we're at this point only missing. Alicia. She's in the audience so she can be brought in somebody. John, since you're controlling, I think. Bring Alicia and. Alicia. Can you just confirm for us that you heard me? Yes, thank you. Okay, thank you. So other people besides the members of the committee who I've just introduced. Sonia Aldrich, Sean mangano. Are both here. From Paul Bachleman. You know, Keith is. Involved in the meeting, but she's actually not our minute taker today. But it's going to help us out if we need to for as long as she can. She has other things that she's in transit to. And Bill Cason is going to be our minute taker today. Thank you. Sharon, you want to introduce everybody from the library side. Yeah, certainly. So I have, we have Bob Pam. Here. Alex the fave. Here. And Kent Ferber. Thank you. So. Andy, I just would like to note that we have other trustees in the audience. And we have representative Mindy Dom in the audience. Okay. Thank you for that reminder. And we will be looking at to bring people into the. Into the meeting as we can. So the. Thing that we wanted to start with today and I apologize to members of the committee that. So much came in so late, but we really had a big ask of our. Colleagues at the library in the amount of information we were seeking from them and. I've been. I'm very appreciative of the work that you did and the information that you provided. It's going to be very helpful to us. We will try and discuss as much of it as we can today. And I think that. It will be certainly a part of how we proceed. More and more importantly, we will be able to get all of the material to the full council. And much with with more time before the next meeting and finance committee had today. So. Linda, do you have anything that you wanted to say about the questions process before. Is to how you would like to proceed or. I think that it would be useful for people to take a moment and look at the. Responses to the many questions that we ask the trustees and the phenomenal job they've done in such a short time. Of turning those around. Thank you. Sean has worked on some of the answers to. The additional questions that are really for the town and I have drafted responses. Not put them in the packet, but I'm prepared to go over them as well. So if we want, we can focus on the questions for most of the meeting. I think that would be helpful. For people who are in the audience. I believe that. Everything has. We've received to with the exception of a few spreadsheets that need to be added. Have been placed in council packets and including the one that's available on the website. So that. There is an opportunity for everybody to look at it. So we want to make sure that. There are requirements in committee. To have a few minutes to read themselves and. Take a few minutes of a break from the meeting to do that. And I would love just a two or three minute recess just to look over everything really quickly. That would be great. You want to put it on the screen Andy so that people could But to have it on your sky, because I actually have it on the separate computers. So I can't share my screen to do that. But if you could, or Sean, but are you thinking to start with responses from library? I mean, no, if you want me to share anything. You're muted. I, you know, you might want to start with the one we got at 315 today. Andy, which was the responses. From, from Sharon. Yes. Yeah. And there was a, I think two versions of it that if you could put that one on the screen and then go through it slowly for a few minutes that might be helpful. And then do, do you want me to go ahead and do that? Please. Okay. And Andy, would it be possible to get Bob spreadsheets added to the SharePoint at least? Or did you say Sharon said they're in there? I'm sorry about that. The spreadsheets are for the most part. They're copied into Sharon's responses, but the spreadsheets themselves can be added. But it's going to be hard to do that right now. Sharon, can you just confirm that you can see this on the screen that this is the right version. You'd have to scroll down all the way to the bottom. It's the very, it's very last attachment, attachment J. Just make sure that all the pages are there. Three. Is there a page four? If it's only the odd, then no. Okay, yes, go down. There's a five page five. And is there a four? No, there's not. Okay, that's the wrong version then. Is it in the pack at the right version? No, it's not. Okay, did you email that one again, Sharon? I did and I'll do it to you right now. Oh, maybe you personally didn't get. I got one at 248, but I didn't get one after that. Yeah, I just sent it to town council. Here we go. And Sean, you can load that into the packet too. Thank you. There you go. And Sean, I will forward to you, Bob's spreadsheets. Just in case that I didn't include some of them. So here's the, here's the version you just sent. It's still only 25 pages, but. Yeah, this one has the even number. So okay, good. Thank you. So. Are we reading these, Andy, or do you want me to just scroll every few seconds? I think scroll slowly and what I'm going to do now is I have my. I'm looking out for hands raised from. The 10 D are from panelists rather members of the committee. And so I want to start by as we, as you scroll through. If any of the members of the committee have questions, raise your hand or speak up. If you don't, if I don't recognize you right away. And we'll try and pause at that point. So the first question is on the endowment and there are several sub questions. Can I just ask that you also forward it to us because the version I have that came in at 315 doesn't have any page numbers on it. So I just want to make sure that printed out is not different. I see there are page numbers on the one you're showing on the screen. So thanks. So for all counselors who are attendees or panelists. Sharon did send both versions as email attachments to the town council address. So well, both may not be up in the packet for council purposes. Andy, did you want us to call out either questions or comments as the pages? If you see any quite as I said, if you have a question as we as something's being scrolled by raise your hand or speak up and we will stop scrolling so that the question can be asked. Okay. So, Yes, go ahead. Yeah, I did. I raised my hand. So just didn't show up as to who can't go ahead. Okay. Sean, can you just scroll up to when it's the planned on draw on the endowment because I cross walked the four to 4.5%. And it actually comes out a bit higher than the 300 to 320. And just so people know we're at a draw right now in the current year of 332. It's one of the questions I want to come back to because that the current one FY 23 has 332 and then the, as it does do a referral back to the appendix a you can see that the endowment is regularly above. Except for one year it's been regularly above 330. So my thinking as we went into FY 24 FY 25 FY 26 is it would not likely be lower than it has been in the past because the town has been capping. So I just wanted to share it a two and a half percent growth. So I just want to, it's, it's the, the wording says 300 to 320, but when I did just a quick thing it's, it's minor but it was more in the 350 to 380 range. If we can keep a 4% draw, and if we have an 8.2%, 8.2 million dollar endowment. I at some point want to come back to the endowment, because I think it's an important part of this puzzle. So it's just a point on how important the endowment has been to the library to for operations. I know that on your screen now you see the budget presentation for 2018 through 2023 and the endowment is in third grouping. That's from 300,000 111 to FY 23,332,543. Alex has her hand up. Yeah, Alex. Yeah, I just wanted to clarify and Bob and Sharon can probably do a better job of this than well since I'm not on the budget committee but the the I always talk about we have a fixed pot of money and what we take from the endowment. We get what we get from the town and every year is different so our FY 22 is 317 right and our some some years we've bumped in fact if you look at the draw rates which are down below, where are they are they in here. Yeah, so if you look at exhibit E you'll actually see the draw weights and some years were four and a half and 5% and those were choices that were made because every year, we obviously have to look at that so it's really the number that was given was the expectation, but it's our budget changes right I mean if we are if we are have employees who have retired we haven't replaced that changes things dramatically if we get more from the friends which you know that allows us to offer more programming and so there might be years where we might be comfortable with the 4.5% and drama draw even though we're getting more money from the friends because what that does is allow us to offer even more programming so I mean it's just it's not quite. It is like ABC, I think Kathy as as perhaps other budgets might be but again, Bob could really speak to that much better than me.  The next one. Yeah. Bob can probably explain it the next one. Bob can probably explain it better than I can but I was looking at this slide earlier. And what you're trying to do was to project at various levels of value that would be in the endowment what the potential draw rate would be for each of the years, projecting out, which is one of the questions. You want me to speak. Sean, could you bring Alicia back in from the audience for some reason, she keeps getting kicked out. There you go. Thank you. Okay. I just can't do it while I screen share. I know. Okay. All right, the system by which we operate is an average of 12 quarters. So that what I've done here just to make it simpler for everybody to read it is if you just look at the average values for each of the years. The first three numbers of average value, which is 7.5 8.0 and 7.9 those first three years are actually looked at in the following year in 2020 in that case, and they then are used as the basis for the value in the following year after that which is 2021. So what happens in all of these things is that there is a lag of two years between the dollar values that are shown. And when that shows up as a value of the draw of 4%. If we look at it and we say this is not enough or there is some program we want to add, then occasionally we have been willing to add to that. If you go back to the early 2010s, then it's frequently was over 5%, but the policy was changed, and it was said, let us keep to 4% wherever we can. And so, if you now look at, for example, the last three numbers which would be 7.9 9.2 and 8.2 those average out to a number which is the 2024 number which is 351 497. I know what that will be for next year, even though we're still in 2023 and we have not yet spent any of that, and we have not drawn it yet. So that tells you how the system works. And so when I looked at what the values might be going forward, just as a simplification the first set of numbers shows the years 2023 24 and 25 as $8 million each year as the value. What that then does is in 2023 is number that gets averaged in with 22 and 21 to produce for the year 2025, a value of 352,493 as the draw. And the same thing would be true for the next year and the next year. In the year 2027, if it remained at $8 million, then the draw would be 320,000 for each year going forward. What the other numbers on this chart show is what happens if it is 6 million or 4 million or $2 million in the year 2023 or 2024 or 2025. And that is a number which obviously is not going to be the accurate number, because there are differences in what the market does and consequently what the base number of the portfolio is what what the value of the endowment is. It depends upon whether we receive any gifts into the endowment, and it also depends upon whether the cost change over time. So, the purpose of this chart was to just give you a reasonably simple way of thinking about what the impact would be and how long it would be before you actually saw it. The lowest number that I showed is if there was $2 million left in the endowment, and that would have an effect two years later of bringing the endowment value or the draw from the endowment down to 259. In the next year when two years of $2 million is being used in the averaging per process, then we go down to 163. And if there's remain there for three years in a row it would go down to $80,000. This is simpler than other ways of explaining it but not simple. So, I suspect people may have questions. Sharon. I just wanted to comment or highlight something that Kathy said she was linking the draw with what the town appropriates and the two are really very much not linked at all. I mean, unless the town were to, for some reason, not give the library any appropriation, that would be a problem. But the town appropriation to the library pays for salaries. And the salaries that are not covered by the town appropriation are taken care of by our state aid. So it, it's not linked with the endowment at all. Thank you. But if you were to go back to exhibit a purpose of this was to simplify some of the numbers and to make it a little easier to operate so the first line is the total budget for each of those years 2.5 million 2.6 million and so on. Then there is a municipal appropriation and state aid as it was drawn upon for that year so it's basically a cash budget in terms of the way in which this functions and the balance of the budget for that year was raised locally. That comes basically out of two components. One is monies that we are given during that year. Generally raised at this point by the friends of the Jones library which at the bottom you see me abbreviating is f o j l. For the most part what we're looking at our monies that are raised either directly by the library when we were doing all of the fundraising ourselves. But mostly it is what the friends have produced or have taken from their Woodbury fund. And that you can see has been rising over the years, and we keep hoping that it will continue to rise. But then leaves in order to make the budget balance is money from the endowment, plus some miscellaneous things which I chose not to to specify but they are fines they are loss books which have to be replaced there are lots of little things the only major item in that is contributions that are made specifically to the special collection and that we keep essentially separate from from the rest of the budget. What you'll see is that the endowment makes up about 60 something 63% on the average of all of the non personnel non capital improvement items that are not covered through the municipal appropriation. That is where we get the money to buy books this is where we get the money to participate in the statewide systems of exchanging the needs for books that is where we get costs for heat and light and for insurance and every other expense that you can think of so that is the 462,000 dollars that is raised locally of which 63% is raised through the endowment and the friends of the Jones library for the most part raise essentially all the rest of it. Andy do you want me to keep. Do you want to stay with endowment or do you want me to just want to make sure we get through all the questions. We need to go back to the questions. Are there any of the final questions on in the endowment I think none of us want to use the endowment for the purpose you know for the building project I think. I do have a question. Are there expenses in the that you use the endowment for that that are best paid for with that color of money versus town appropriation and is that one of the reasons you separate that. This way versus the other. No, the endowment is the result of gifts to the library over 100 year period. Some of them have been specified as being for particular purposes of that 8 million plus that we currently have about 300,000 weeks basically cannot use for this purpose. So that is, is subject to our decisions. Thank you. I just, I apologize if you already mentioned this Andy while we were in a brief recess but I wanted to make it clear, especially for folks who are in the public. The trustees, I think had passed a motion to commit their endowment, which I believe was reversed or taken off of the table at their meeting last night. Is that accurate, or would somebody be able to just speak to that to clarify that piece. Sharon Alex you want to explain that. So, the library trustees two meetings ago I believe voted a motion to enter into an agreement with the town a new MOU and to pledge the endowment so not there there has there, there is no new agreement there's only the existing agreement that we have. That was approved by the town council back before the vote. And then another motion that was made in the meeting around how to proceed which I don't know structurally how people want to deal with this but there was another motion that was made that gave sort of a path forward that made sense given where we are in the project and what we know. And so the prior motion to enter into an agreement to pledge the endowment was taken off the table to be revisited at a later time. When we get price certainty and know what the numbers might actually be once we know what fundraising is once we have price certain etc. And Andy if I may just add. Michelle thank you for asking that question. I wanted to be very clear that in quote rescinding this motion, this did not indicate anything about the trustees willingness to do anything about backstopping the town in other words this is not like we're taking it off the table we don't want to help. Quite the opposite it was given this other motion that we that we passed. We wanted to focus the attention of the town on what is right before us which is getting us through the construction bid phase. And then when we had a clear sense of what the needs are with the town, then we thought it would be more appropriate to come forward and pledge whatever the support is and I just want to make clear that I think there's a confusion. In what it is that we're talking about in any of these mo us. We are pledging to provide a financial support or backing to the town. That that financial backing could come from a withdrawal from the endowment. Or it could come from some other way in which the library raises funds. So when we've talked about in the town council I heard last night it was very, very instruct very helpful discussion about, well, if they take this money out of the endowment, then how are they going to maintain services. Well, that's one way of funding, providing funding, but it is not the only way. For example, the library owns its own building. And maybe there could be borrowing against the value of the building and then that would allow for a different form of repayment over time. So, taking it back taking this $8 million pledge whatever was back is not meant to say we're not all in we are all in we just thought it would be more appropriate to to deal with that commitment when the time came. Alright, I was going to move on to the next section of questions which is construction costs. So one thing Alex noted just for those who are at the meeting last night. Alex didn't get updated numbers from the opm and time for or put this in before we got those updated numbers. So the 46.4 number that was shared last night is sort of the opm's new middle of the road estimate. So there's a budget breakdown in the packet for how, how he arrived at that number, which makes, I think, and see potentially wrong so my apologies for that. Yeah, I mean it's all. I think the thing to say for all these, it's all arranged at this point right so the midpoint is, you know, it's still an estimate it's within the range until we open up construction bids. So it'll always be an estimate so Andy Lynn has her hand up. Yes, since I asked question E when an advocate list. I want to be given example. For example, in order to exhibit the Civil War, I'm sorry, we just need to. In order to exhibit the Civil War tablets, we could actually build the structure of the room but not finish it per se. And that is the kind of thing from my own experience with grants and contracts over any number of years, probably 50. That's the kind of thing that's really attractive to fundraising, it's really attractive to grants, and the money from the grants would then be used actually place the tablets to hang them to add additional things to that room so when I asked this question. It wasn't to say the building wouldn't be able to be occupied. It was to say there might be pieces of the building for which funds could be raised over time. And that's an example of it. So thank you. I was just looking at the kind of discussion there about wiring and things like that. I mean, I appreciate that, but you could wire these things during construction and then plug it in later. I mean, I wouldn't want to see a situation where you're having to open up walls or ceilings in order to add wiring later. I mean, you know, you one could wire things and, you know, put a plate there and then plug in at a later date. So I think thinking it through that way might be very helpful in terms of reducing initial costs. Thank you. Another way of dealing with the staging question that Lynn was kind of raising whether you could set expenses, Alex. Yeah, I was just going to say that I definitely appreciate that comment and I think we've already been thinking about that, you know, solar panels are really easy wire for them so that that will definitely be part of the conversation as we move into actual construction and development. And so definitely, we'll look at that and definitely appreciate the comment. I'm just going to raise a really minor point because I saw it when these estimated utility costs first came to us. I believe when you do the current building. In terms of cost, you use a different price per kilowatt hour than when you do with a new building, and I would just like you to use the same price per hour. I don't care whether it's what you currently spend or what's projected. That's the way I'm used to seeing estimates. So I understand what was done. It's literally the budget. For example, what we're doing with the school is saying, what are we currently spending per kilowatt hour if we use this many kilowatt hours at those tents less this is what we were saying so I think it's a little less than 8% so just that original number was based, I think on two different scents per hour from two different sources so it was it was in the original chart so it's the only reason I would even know this. So it's just a comment. It's, it has almost nothing to do with the amount of money we're talking about. All right, we're moving to the fundraising section. If that was actually corrected Kathy in the second. Has been corrected now. And then we went back to the second packet from what last finance committee meeting, and then we actually in that chart also added an update if we were to use 100% renewable energy so that was in the second one. Okay, so it have renewable because originally it was always an 8% saving so I just, okay, thanks. It was a change because when we did it again later, it was different numbers, but it didn't want you know, because energy costs to change, but that was corrected so the numbers that you're so this does not reflect renewable energy. But the last the second chart that we did for you did update it and didn't. Not. Yep. You mean. You could just scroll back just a little bit. Some of the items have been dropped from the scope. And it's, I think, important to just realize that among with the value engineering items that have been changing. And some items which not everybody has been aware of. Other changes are possibly the, the elimination of the sawtooth structure, which are designed to let in light on one side and to mount solar panels on the other side. Solar panels apparently have never been in the design as as it currently stands. So those were to be on subsequently. And so what we're now talking about is essentially a flat roof for most of it with no penetrations except along one line, which will be a skylight. And the other piece that has, I think, changed is that in trying to do the value engineering. A lot of the ceiling treatments have changed substantially so that in some areas it is. I believe acoustic tire, excuse me, excuse me, acoustic tiles, and in other areas, it will be exposed so that you can see up to the actual wood structure at which makes up the roof. Possibly some of the piping just as a design feature so that you see it. So if you think about the Drake, where, as in many loft redevelopments you can see areas of the piping and such which is in the ceiling. I believe some of that has been incorporated into the value engineering. Yeah there's a I think the list is attached isn't it Sharon of all the value engineering. And also the building committee has talked about at the last two meetings. And I yeah so so to clarify and, and Kathy can correct me but so this question originally came from Kathy last week, and it's a different question what she was asking was, Hey, when we got the first cost estimate back in 2016. To balance the budget you had to make some cuts. So, at that point the project cost stayed the same, but some cuts were made. And so that's what I'm referring to here. I would need more time to get the exact figures but that's what this is. That's separate from the value engineering that's coming in a different question. I also wanted to clarify something that Bob said. So the seller panels were included in our project for up until 2020, for some reason or another they, they got dropped during cost estimations, but I just wanted to clarify that thank you. I just want to clarify, just as a member of the building committee. The recommendation of the building committee to remove the sort of tooth roof design was made after repeated assurances from the architects that this would not affect the ability to install solar panels on the building. I know I know we're going to get to those items later but does it affect the light in the building. How much daylight comes through because one of the things I liked about is it look like it's suffused the hallways with light, you know, so it's that's just a question. The answer, we have them in our slate roof. They leak. You know, because they're flat, you know as opposed to the salt tooth design which I think would have protected so I just had a question about daylight inside. Awesome do you want to respond to that directly. Sure the answer is that the building committee is very much aware of this. We had a discussion with the architects. We're sure that there are other ways of getting the daylight in. MBLC we're told is not in favor of the normal skylighting because they are very much aware of leakage and there's nobody who's been associated with the Jones library that is not aware of leakage problems. So, Kathy, it's a great question. We asked it of the architects. We've been assured that this will not lead to a diminishment of the natural light that will come into the library. They're just going to have to look for other ways to do it without using the traditional skylight design. The fundraising. Sections. Sorry, I'll turn it up. Kathy, the other question on this section. Yeah, my question is just, I want to make sure I'm reading it right new is a hope is your hopeless correct. Additional committed is you have a pledge something in writing. I mean, and then cash. Well, I think cash means you have it. So if I go through those columns, is that the correct way to read it, then the news where we're with the aspiration is. Yes, that's what we would hope to raise we would expect to raise going forward. And then the only other one on cash receive the, the 300,000 be quick. Was that specific to the capital campaign or was that a request that was open ended that came in and then you could move it into this project. I can verify but my understanding is yes, there's two in there one for 276,000 and another for another 25 and change. And both of them were at the discretion of the trustees and the first one the 276,000 has been allocated to the project. The other one has not yet been voted pending, you know, the what's going on now. Thank you. Sharon's hand is up, Andy, or whoever's calling on people. Andy I can see him on the top do you want me to call on people as our hand pops up. Oh, sure. Thank you. Yeah, so there are 123 different bequests that the trustees have voted to put into into this project. So that's what that is. Again, a clarification. What we have voted is that to the extent that it is needed for funding the project. Those are in the endowment but will be withdrawn for that purpose, if as and when needed. Thank you. So my question is for the new column. When will we know whether or not those have been confirmed. Well, there's a huge variety in there that confirmation which would come at different times we hope to know expect to know about a $1.1 million federal earmark this fall. I'd like to hear about the result of a $1 million national down for the humanities grant application next spring. The historic tax credits we won't know until nearly the end of the construction process and we wouldn't receive the money until after the project is finished. So let's say MOU Sharon knows a little more about that than maybe Alex also. And I do. And the others would be as we go along. I mean, we're as soon as we know we have a clear field here. Well, as soon as we know we're what the layout is going to be we're going to start talking to corporations and banks about naming opportunities. Those to come in over the next few years. I think I did for Sean a phased the annual. Has that been distributed yet. I mean, again, it's kind of this is best estimation. It's probably about as good as the estimation of the total cost of building. But those phasing of those new gifts is I did outline and more detail on something I provided Sean. Yeah, if it's not in the packet we can add it to the packet I wasn't sure if it was in. It is in the packet. It is okay. In particular what we would what we would know by. I'm not, you're breaking up Alicia, I'm not hearing. Alicia, do you want to try to ask your question again. Yeah, I was just trying to confirm. Sean, you said that those details were in the packet. Yeah, Lynn said that they are in the packet. I can do it. I can pull it up if people want to look at that. Thank you. Attachment I, Sean is a was it already in there. That's it. Or that one, that one's even better. So what we requested was a breakdown of a plan and with amounts that could be raised and sort of the key decision points. So there's sort of an annual amount to be raised that can provided, but also a number at key points. So I'm not sure what nine one 2023 that might have been the original construction bid date, but we're more the latest timeline has us closer to the December 31st 2023 timeline so. Yes, that's what I was using September date as the day you would know a contract price. Okay, so we're going to be closer to this. So the way I interpret this is. We would look to see if we're around the $6.3 million when we go to open up bids. Yes, that would be our. Oh, Bob and Alex. I just, I said that Bob Alex and Michelle. Oh, have the hands that you do too, Lynn. Just as a point of information. This is one scenario. It is not the only and my own version of this is exhibit H, which produces a somewhat different total. This one is based upon a $43 million project. And I've already done mine to a $47 million project and that still leaves a gap of about $6 million dollars. Alex. Thanks, yeah, I just want to clarify on so on the historic tax credits in terms of timing. So applications for the tax credits are typically made throughout construction, but our historic tax credit consultant so we have epsilon, which is the finance council might remember that's all these people do. This is their profession. But they said that we could start applying for them during divine design development as well. And so when we are applying for them. We are simultaneously seeking investment so even though it wouldn't be paid until potentially 60 days after certificate certificate of occupancy. So there is a possibility that we will know some of the historic tax credits because they're applied for over several cycles will be, we will be applying the entire process. So it's possible that some of those might be known. Again, that's a possibility so we certainly will know that's what amount is committed before December 31 26 because we'll be applying all along. When you get the certificate you know what it is what you can sell it for is another question, but the discount is but that's pretty stable. Right. By the way the number the 1.8 million I put in there doesn't reflect the in the escalation in the cost of the historic preservation work that's being done, which is now estimated I think over two and a half 12 and a half million 20% of which would be two and a half million so they didn't bump it up a little bit from the 1.6 we were talking about before but I estimated on the conservative side this I should yes this will not match Bob's projection he's only interested in cash as a good treasure should be. These are commitments this is what you'll, you can be sure that you'll receive. Yeah, fundraising scary, but having done some in this community, a smaller amount and looking at some other fundraising. I actually am more comfortable with this than I thought I would be. I want to share that and the reason and the thing I want to also share is that as you raise money, you attract regular donors and those regular donors often come back on capital campaigns but they then also come back on your regular annual and I can just share my own personal experience from the survival center and say that our annual campaigns now are much, much more robust than they were before our capital campaign because we picked up donors along the way. So I, not only this is over a much longer period of time is for more money, but people tend to give annually, and I think that this fundraising is scary, but I'm more comfortable with this than I ever thought I would be. Thank you. Thank you Andy. I just wanted to say that the trustees have seen this projection. I think I can speak for the majority of the trustees on this. We're quite comfortable with this projection and past performance is no guarantee of future, whatever. But past performance is a good place to put your bet when you're taking a risk on something. So what is the past performance. We have an extraordinary fundraising committee. We have two extraordinary fundraisers that have a demonstrated track record of success in high dollar fundraising Kent made is living, working in a place where high dollar fundraising was a thing to do. And the second thing is look at what they've already done. Now again that's no guarantee what will happen. And the other thing that I think it might be important for people to hear Kent can say it it's not for me to say is what Kent's experience has been in fundraising for worthy projects and we think this is a very worthy project in so to speak good times and bad. Kent, is there anything you can say about the likely effect of this move in the stock micro went down today stock market goes up. It's never a good time for fundraising in the eyes of donors being approached, but I can say that I have worked through 1990 2008. And they're ephemeral, they do pass and people of these campaigns are going to be we're talking about going out five years here. And it can be done. And the thing that that I think dots most people is the notion that there are people who could make multimillion dollar gifts who live in Amherst. This is a town this is an academic town full of academics. And I would just remind you that two things. The town has just received a gift for a million and a half dollars for the North Amherst library, anonymously, but I have to assume it's an Amherst resident. When I was the president of the Community Foundation, we received a million this is 15 years ago we received a million dollar charitable lead trust which is a complicated arrangement that is done only by very wealthy people who have more money than they can use and to get it to their heirs that is low tax cost possible. One of the $2 million lead trusts, we received two of the $2 million lead trust I forgot the other one came from residents of Amherst. There are people of means out there, quietly. And I think this is, this is plausible, definitely plausible. Michelle, given so concerned. I had just wanted to ask a clarifying question and then also make a comment about my experience with fundraising. So the question I have is, let's fast forward the bids come in and we open them up and we see, we see what the project is going to actually cost and then we have several years after that that we have to to meet our real fund raising right so still at the point of knowing what the actual cost is going to be will still have half or more of this to to raise is that correct. Yes, I would just say that this is that cash flow is a different problem than ultimate net. Remember, this doesn't include the 2.7 million you're going to receive from the nblc as each year as you go along, as well as all of these receipts so I can't would be impossible to predict the cash flow, and some of it will indeed overhang the final opening and it may be that some part of the endowment has to be used to bridge that gap and maybe some of the town's bond funding bridges that cap. That's not an unimportant problem but on the other hand it's nothing like the problem will well ultimately are you're going to have enough to pay the bills in the end. For planning purposes, we assume all the fundraising comes at the end. So when we're looking at the bigger plan for all the building projects, the fund, except for the money that we have in hand which we do have some in hand currently will assume it comes at the end for cash flow purposes and just for for financing purposes. Okay, thank you. And I so I wanted to just offer a little experience that I've had in the community I was the chair of the capital campaign for the Amherst Montessori school building. And it was a small campaign I think $650,000 so most of it was financed locally. But what I can say is it was and of course that was a limited pool of people in some ways because we were really pulling from current and past families that attended the school, but as the school was starting to be built and the excitement was building it was really, it was quite amazing to see how many people rallied and supported the fundraising efforts and so I think that's important for us to remember is that it this is a big scary number I have to be honest. And then the work starts to happen and people start to see, wow, this is actually, you know, coming to fruition and be able to follow it and I can see right here at the North Amherst library I drive by it every day and I'm seeing the building process beginning and it's, it's super exciting. I just wanted to say that we live in a community that has a lot of significance it has a lot of significant to people, a lot of significance just historically and so we can draw on those really awesome aspects about our community so it's not just particularly about raising funds from individual residents in our community, which we hope to be able to do but it's also really leveraging those connections and and those accomplishments within our community that we have. And I found personally in my experience that those can be very positive as well so I just wanted to add that to the thinking. Lisa. Thank you, I just wanted to share that. So the details that are coming from the conversation that we are having for me is a lot more helpful than the document that is on the screen in front of us. So, and I do respect that the trustees did an incredible amount of work to get us to our meeting today. But it is helpful to have like what we were just talking about the things that Kent, and I think Alex just went over in terms of like dates and specific funds. Those things build me a much more clear picture than this document that we have here. So, I just wanted to let that be known. Thank you very much, Paul. Kathy. I agree with Alicia it's it's terrific you've pulled together this information for us but I want to go back to who's at risk. That was the big discussion when we were at 36 million. And the MOU we had plus your endowment. Look like if look like the fundraising was really pretty doable at that point, Kent, you know, and the various pieces and the endowment could be at least partially at risk, you know for a two or three year period with things coming in toward the end. I think we're talking about, and Sean hasn't done the math for us which he did when we looked at the 36 million, we have to finance the whole thing. If, if we say go, which means we as a town go out for 49 million 50 million whatever the number is, and we could use the high number the low number and we'll know the real number. And as the fundraising comes in, if it doesn't come all the way in. I think we, the town is at risk for the money, because it's, it's more than the total endowment right now the, you know, so it's not just maybe a couple million so I just, I just want to. The table is very helpful but seeing that rear end. I think you've done a terrific job raising money and I, I wasn't believing you could hit the five, and I now believe you could hit the five, seeing where you are now. But it's another, it's a huge stretch. I just want to, I think we're going to need Sean what does that mean. If we go out and we start talking. The other thing was when we were looking at this we were, we use. We use the best interest rate we could at that point and we had better interest rates to be using. So we were in Sean you'll know this we were in the 2% or 3% range for 20 or 30 year. So I don't know what this now looks like in the world we're in we're facing this with the school and all of our anything we're doing right now our fire ladder truck. Both the thing costs more money and the debt costs more money so it's not just the million dollars but it's the million dollars time 4% or times, whatever so I would really like to not necessarily today but I would like our finance team. And to tell us what kind of risk we're talking about to the town and I know Bob, you didn't vote with the rest of the trustees and to the extent I could read what you've written so far, or see the thing. It was because of the financial risk, it wasn't a vote on the project per se, and that was, it's always been my concern the financial risk. But I just, I just want to say that when I look at that, where we think will be in 2023 by the middle of it, when the bids come in. And if the kind of costs we're talking about come in will be lucky if they're at the low end will be even luckier if they're below your low end, but they might be at the high end and just so people know on our little North Amherst library. It was really easy fundraising because one anonymous donor gave all the money, but first it was $800,000 then it was 1.2 then it was 1.8. And we were really fortunate that they just dug deeper. It wasn't a person having so much invested in the project, but it was astonishing how much it went for 1100 or 1200 square feet. You know it wasn't, it wasn't ever super big. So I just, that's what I'm worried about is the risk to the town. And then the risk to the health of the library to because you, as you peel things away. Take some things away that you really wanted in the project that was one of the things we did to this 1993 expansion that I think got us into some trouble. So we don't want to, I know you're trying not to, you know, we don't want to hurt the bones of the project. We don't want to see things we thought weren't going to come to the capital side of town with annual requests that we thought were in the project start three years from now we suddenly capital requests because you either don't have furniture you don't have some equipment you really need and wanted. And that's the kind of thing Bob was talking about it could always be plugged in later, you know, but it's, we don't have a, we have a capital plan that is so tight. So tight to maintain buildings and roads without another draw. So that's my bigger picture is the whole town in this context so I just want to say, as listed said it's good to hear this but when I look at 2323 and beyond and think meanwhile, if it's a go and these costs come in where we think they're coming in. And you don't get the federal money or you don't get any one of those biggies. Okay, then it's on the town, because we can't, we can't pull back. So, so I'll stop and respond quickly to that. Yeah, I was going to ask you actually. So, so Kathy 100% agree with everything you said I think that's exactly what Paul and I are certainly thinking about or is the financial health of the town and the library because they are linked and how they support the library is operating budget right. So we will have an updated financing plan where we are waiting for the project manager who was waiting for us to give him sort of a timeline for when this decision will be made whether to move into the next phase. I've given him a tentative date for modeling purposes so now he's going to model the cash flow going forward. And once we have that model we will be able to do a new financing plan and show what the, what the higher costs are with the new interest rates and things like that. You know all the reasons you described is why we're having this conversation and why we're, we're looking at amendment to the MOA that I get to provide some assurances to the town. There will be another at least one other decision point or stopping point should the town decide to move forward at this point, there will be at least one other stopping point for the town to again reevaluate where it is when it opens up construction document construction bids. At that point we'll also be able to look at the fundraising, or along the way we'll be able to look at the fundraising but we'll be able to evaluate the fundraising efforts at that point, which is why it was so helpful that can't provide that plan. I think we still have to evaluate you know is that enough do we feel confident that that's the amount we should have at that point. But it is helpful having that plan because now we have a number to look to when we open up bids to say are we on track or not. And that would be another, another decision point for the council. Thank you. I actually was going to ask you to talk a little bit about decision points. I'm glad you did. Yes, I just, can you hear me out. I, it's these numbers are so daunting that it's very hard to avoid thinking about this in an all or nothing way. When in fact, I think the risk needs to be evaluated on a graduated basis so if we're confident we can raise the 6.6, then the gap is a full $8 million if the bids come in at the lower bid. What is the risk that we would raise nothing more well I would, I mean, I'm, I'm doing this because I love the library. I wouldn't want to see anything happen to this library that would in the long run jeopardize it so. What is the prospect of our raising $4 million more than the 6.6 is that minimal also what is the because of then that brings you if you take Bob's projections within a what is $160,000 deficit $125,000 $50,000 deficit for one year and the operating expenses, and again points out what is the effect of annual fund which we've raised and you have the numbers by the way on the growth of that annual fund which demonstrates not only the extent to which the town wants to support this library and its operations but how much we can capitalize on that. So, I think it really is important to think about this in a fair and a graduated risk way. Yes, there is certainly a point at which it makes no sense going forward. But I think there's also a point at which it makes all the sense in the world to go forward because the chances of raising nothing more are really minimal. I can answer Alicia's earlier request. I, it's always unclear to me what kind of information people want. I've been doing this kind of thing for 40 years. I can talk for hours I used to give classes on how to fundraise. Anybody who wants to talk more about some of these details I'd be delighted to do it. Thank you, Austin. I appreciate Kathy's focus is very helpful to me. I want to say quick three things. First of all, what have we learned so far in the fundraising. One thing we've learned so far in the fundraising is that we found sources of funding that we did not know existed several months ago. We are down side risk to fundraising but they're also upside possibilities and we've already seen that fun funding that we didn't know would be possible for us. So, maybe as we go forward we will discover new sources of funds second point. And this is just to reemphasize what Sean said, I think the question that I hope we're going to focus on is what risk is there to the town in moving from now to construction bids. I hope that what the library trustees will have said is as clear as we can say it is we want to work with the town to ensure that there is no risk to the town of going forward to construction bids. And that's why I said what I said earlier, we've got to be very careful we keep talking about dipping into the endowment. That's one source of funding. Bob Pam, very helpfully reminded everybody in this town that at every phase in the construction of this library. Library resources have been invested in the original building that was the purpose of the endowment in the 1960s edition, the library help fund that in the 1990s edition the libraries help fund it. So, this is not an unprecedented thing that we're thinking about doing. It's a very highly precedent thing. In fact, it's what Samuel that Jones wanted for his endowment that it be used to build and support a library. So, I think that we hope that we can get to a point where counselors will feel comfortable that to get to construction bids. There's no real risk to the town and that we can get to construction bids and if the library has to finance that activity, the library can do it using sources of funds that will be available to the library which include, but are not limited to its endowment in a way that will not sacrifice the operating needs of the library. So, thank you. I see former hands up and then like to evaluate where we are in to sort of get our path forward but Lynn. I want to thank Michelle for sharing the story of the Montessori school, because she's right. People walk in with checks because they see structures happening. The only thing I want to do is, I want to actually go out five years. Suppose five years from now. We're still four million away. We still own a billion, a building that we haven't put a mortgage on, we can refinance town debt. Yes, that costs money. Yes, we don't want to do those things, but it's not like the bank is going to come and shut the town down. It's not like we can't make other decisions along the way about our other capital needs. So I want to make sure because for me, I don't want to be sitting here a year and a half from now and pulling the plug. I want to make sure that we can go forward and we can continue to go forward. And so I'm always looking about where your assets and how can you solve that problem. That's my only comment. We're going to Bernie because he hasn't had opportunity today. Thanks, Andy. I just want to make note that my, I'm getting a little error message here that my internet connection is unstable. So if I disappear, it's the internet. The value in going forward to construction bids and getting those bids out and opened is that it gives a certainty to what we're up against. It ends the speculation that point. We know what we have to, we know what the situation is. I think that's also at the point where it's going to encourage people who are thinking about giving to the project to donate. Because again, it's people don't like to spend money on pure or give money on pure speculation. They like to know there's going to be, there's a definitive plan, and there's going to be an outcome. And that shows in a variety of ways in terms of finance. And so I think by working with the library trustees to try to find a way to alleviate some of the anxiety around the time being on the hook between now and construction bids is the way to go. I think we need to have certainty here. We need to know what we're getting, what's going to cost, and then people can come forward and and they will. I'd also like to point out that this isn't the only project in the state or in the country that's been impacted and threatened by the present situation. I'm hopeful, and Mindy I know you're out the audience I've got great faith in you and Joe Comerford and the fact that we can build a network among other towns were impacted like this to either get the Commonwealth to be a little more generous in its funding or to be more flexible in its design standards to loosen up on those formulas. So that's another prospect that really needs to be explored. And that is better explored if we are looking at cost certain costs as opposed to speculative costs. So that's my that's my two cents I'll get off the sub box now thank you very much. Thank you, Michelle. Just a couple more comments. First I just I one of the things that I keep hearing is, well, let's get to this next step of getting the bids and knowing what our actual costs are and I think that's really obviously an important milestone for us but in some ways, I feel like if we're committing to this. It's a deeper process for us it's not like that this is so fragile that we get to the next, you know, milestone and get it and and we're going to pull the plug to use your person. So because I think that it's about committing and honoring what the community has asked for and I totally get that there was a different price tag that the community was voting at that time but in my mind I just I guess I want to shift to a bit of a deeper thinking about not that we're not I'm not saying we're not thinking deeply but like a deeper deeper commitment and some unity among the trustees and the town counselors in that commitment and like if we're going we're all fundraising we're all out there we're all part of this process in a way. The other thing I wanted to say is looking at the mo you and please correct me if I get any of this wrong but it. I realized that the library owns and just building on what Lynn and Austin we're talking about earlier the library owns the land I believe and does the library also own the building and so the library owns the building in the land okay. I just pulled up the property card. There's a $20 million assessment on it, and not really just like open my eyes to you know the fact that there are other opportunities I'm sure out there that the library may be able to consider other funding opportunities. And just curious if any of the local banks have been involved in this process or have conversations have been had. I know the Amherst Montessori School used Greenfield Savings Bank, we do have excellent local banks and partners here so $20 million assessment and that I'm sure is not even close to what land and what that property is worth so I encourage us to really think about that as well. Thanks. Thank you. Thank you. So I have a couple of questions. My first one is to Sean. If that you will be presenting to us the updated for project model before our decision has to be made. No, I don't think we'll have the information in time I mean it depends when you want to make the decision but given we're trying to make this trying to make a decision yes or no pretty soon so that the designers and the opm can move forward I don't think we'll have that information in time. Okay. Thank you so what I think I think it would be actually extremely helpful to have that information before we make the decision I know you're saying that it might not be possible but I think it would be helpful to see again I think I asked for this at the last meeting, what the effect to the town's budget and the operating budget would be if the fundraising was not met. I think along the lines of what Kent was talking about in terms of like we're not going to have a zero fundraising so like we don't have to take into consideration what would happen if there was like no fundraising met but maybe if we could have a model that looks at like the trustees met 25% of fundraising or the trustees met 50% of fundraising or they met 75% of fundraising and how those changes would affect the town's operating budget moving forward. I think that is like a critical piece of information for this project. I'll respond to that Andy. So I think if there's specific scenarios that are requested we could try to work on that I'll say the, the, the scenarios are endless. Because our, it's estimates on top of estimates in terms of we don't know interest rates right now and when we were going to go to borrow. So again, we can provide fundraising and how much will come in we don't know the cost for the other building projects that we haven't developed further along. So again we can provide, you know, sort of our, again a model or, you know, like different scenarios. But it's, I don't think it's going to necessarily provide assurances in any way that to make somebody feel better about it. We can push the OPM to get us the cash flow information, you know, hopefully this week and then our financial advisor would take it from there and probably take another few days to get it. So we might be able to have it for the 19th, potentially, but I can't guarantee it. Thank you Sean that would be helpful if that is possible. And it's not necessarily for assurance but I think just for realistic expectations. And so that we can see like even if we don't have all of the minute details, and we have a general idea of what the trend would be. So like, you know, again like I said 25 versus 50 versus 75. Like, is it going to be a huge difference for the town operating budget if the trustees meet 90% of their fundraising and we're on the line for the 10% I don't know but if I knew that would be very helpful for me. So it depends. I think that's a good question. It depends again what happens if they don't make their fundraising so if they don't make their fundraising and it comes from. And so like I said, some Jones like trustees ink source whether it be the endowment or a mortgage, and the town share stays the same, the 15.8. The only impact we're looking at right now would be just the fact that we're going to have to have higher temporary financings because the project costs more. We're going to be borrowing more on a temporary basis that would ultimately be repaid. If the fundraise comes up short, and there is no mechanism for the, for that fundraising to be made up by the trustees, and it has to come out of the town funding then that would be a different picture going forward that would impact our, you know, the amount of money that we set aside for capital. It could impact operations if there's a decision to allocate more funds to capital so again there's lots of scenarios so I think if you want to send specific scenarios or if the council wants to send specific sort of options to look at we can certainly work on that. Thank you Sean yeah because I think even the scenario that you were just talking about where they end up covering it with the endowment and we're just on the line for the borrowing amount which is higher in the beginning and it's temporary. It would still be helpful to see literally how that temporarily will affect our but our budget versus the other scenarios. Thank you. I really recognize the other two people who's to have hands up right now and then I want to stop and work with all of you to figure out a path for the rest of the meeting because we're really getting to a stuck point. We have a lot to go through and we haven't done public comment yet. And we need to get to a conclusion today. So, Kathy. I'm going to try to be brief. First part is just building on Alicia's request Sean in in the budget you gave us for the capital plan, you have a last page as you know that it's really terrific for the, the cost of the debt that we're financing for the big project so there's a line called there. So I think at a minimum looking out five years 10 years that if we're having to take on 49 million with that cash flow, you know, even with the most optimistic that we're early on, because with an interest rate so just something focused on that. I want to just say that when the voters when this went out to vote because I know many people in my district who were really positive about the project, what they told me is it's not competing with the other three projects because the finance director in the town which we totally, we totally trust has told us all four are possible. And here's the modeling that showed it and I realized that the world stood on its head after that in a shocking way, kind of a terrifying way. But there was this sense that the library in no way was bumping up against the aspirations for a school for example. This, and the school now is more expensive for the same reasons the library is more expensive everything costs more. So, so I just want to be protective of what everyone thought they were voting on, and if I realize we've got these two stopping points but this is very much interactive with what are we telling taxpayers. I keep wearing that people think we've got this bottomless pocket for somehow we can fund the crest program we can fund firefighters. It's miraculous because we didn't have them before. And now we can still go ahead with four projects, all of which are more expensive than they were before. And the, what you showed us in July was terrifying. It didn't. It looked like it just doesn't work. And it was iffy a year ago, you know it was tight is what we talked about tight if all of this works. So I just at the minimum on the Jones line, I think, is to show us the, the what if the what if all things go swimmingly. What if there's a shortfall in the fundraising beyond what we originally thought and we're on the hook for it. And then I do understand what Austin said that we're saying if we go to the point of getting construction bids, we put out 1.8 or 1.2 million and the trustees can hold the town hall will commit to holding us whole that's great. But then we're going to have to make that decision then in June or July of next year so the more we can understand what the decision might look like the better in terms of the impact, because it's there's a big difference between 4950 million and 36. So, I wish it was only a $1 million difference.  So that's it just I think at least that one line, because I know the other lines DPW line is bigger now fire station line is bigger now they're all bigger than what we saw probably even in July. So, thank you. Bob. I'll try to be brief. Two points. The library has signed deed restrictions which say that it shall remain a library for the next 30 years. Consequently, if you go to a bank and you say, put a mortgage on this, they have no recourse because they can't then take possession and sell it for some other use. Just just to be clear that really does not exist as an alternative as an option. The second point that I would make is simply that I and many others have made contributions towards this project in the event that we go forward. When ended in a year or a year and a half or whenever it turns out to occur. I would not expect to get any money back. I would expect that that would remain as a contribution. And I would hope that other donors who have made such contributions and who are now pushing for this project to go forward would make similar kinds of commitments. And I think the other form they think is appropriate, but you know, it is. It seems strange to me that there are people who have provided money, and who have said keep going, knowing what the risks are at this point, have not made clear that they are willing to just leave in whatever money they have contributed to date, whether that means that they would continue or not. That's, that's my feeling on that. Thank you. Michelle. Very quick follow up. Yeah, I did see that the restriction in the MOU and I was, that was it looked like it was in reference to the CPA funds, which is what a million dollars. So is that what you just said Bob I was curious about that. Are you definitively saying that borrowing from a bank is not an option, or I'll leave that to other people who are lawyers to say that but I can't imagine that a bank is going to say here is a mortgage where their security is the ability to take it and to sell it. And if, if it must remain as the town library for the next 30 years. It's a little hard to see why they would do that. And it must remain that way because of the CPA money. That's where the restriction originates from. Yes, Lynn is facing this so let's let her answer the question. Actually before before Lynn does I actually spoke with a rep are representative from Vanguard today. And this is exactly what he suggested Michelle he suggested that we could approach a local bank, who would possibly lend us that 1.5 million, and they would use the endowment as the collateral, not the building of the property so yes Michelle it is doable. Thank you. So, we kind of got into fundraising and historical tax credits and then have spent a lot of time really venturing around on topics that were related to that and coming from that. And other things that we that were further down in the questions list that we haven't been able to address, including some of the construction costs, things like that. I do feel what we need to see if there's public comment. And I would like to see if I think that Lynn is shared with me earlier that she's been thinking about a possible motion so I want to make sure that we can can move along in some sort of orderly fashion to not spend the rest of the night on this topic after a late last night. Are there other topics within the question list that any members of the committee felt were important and didn't get the attention yet that they would like. Seeing that no one has yet raised their hand. Is there anything else, Austin or Sharon that are any of the trustees that you'd like to say further. Excuse me, an explanation of last night's motion. It could be put on the screen if it would be helpful. But if you think it's important that we fully understand the motion I want to make sure that there's that opportunity. Thank you Andy I'll just say the following. We're incredibly grateful for the attention of the finance committee we're really have been very grateful for the work that Sean and Paul and Lynn have done with us. And an exemplary there's been a lot of talk over the last few days of the town and the library. And I appreciate why that talk has occurred that way but we are partners in this. And we've worked very hard for a very long time to establish a working relationship where it's not the town versus the library. Whatever we do we want to make sure that that partnership is kept in place and I'm sorry to be filibustering about the motion. I wanted to be clear that what the trustees did was to approve a structure within which we could continue productive conversations with the town. That's why there are three identified alternatives. However, the trustees for the trustees who spoke to this, having voted for that motion expressed a strong preference that if the library was going to have to make a financial commitment. We'd hope that we could reach an agreement in which the financial commitment if the library was going to have to expend any funds from whatever source could be dedicated to library uses, meaning to the purposes of the capital improvement. The vote was unanimous in favor of this motion for trustees after the motion spoke and were very clear about what their preference was, but the hope was that this would provide a framework for continuing productive conversations with the town. Thank you. Sharon, Colin you and then ask if you'd like Sean to put the motion from last night on the screen if it's available. I just wanted to say one more thing I think it was Bernie today and Michelle last night, Lynn, talking about this initiative with Mindy and Joe. I just had a conversation today with many of the 14 libraries, including one of the select people from tear field. Anyways, we are all moving forward we will be writing letters and emails but I will be sending to all of you a kind of a template, and I hope that all of you I invite the trustees the friends of the library, every counselor, whether you're in favor of this project or not to send letters to your legislators, asking for help to fill the gap so I will be sending that information to you tomorrow. Thank you. Any other questions or quickly or not. Tell me if. Sharon I have the, I think it's on Jones library letterhead has a nice owl in the background reading a book has three promotions is that let me put on the screen and tell me if that's the right one. I don't think it was in the packet, but is this the right one. That is yeah. Okay. I'm not Sammy. I said that Sammy the owl. Okay, sorry. That's probably not good of me to. So I just want to give you a moment to read the motion and then see if there any questions about it. Nicole and Michelle and then probably will. This is just quick Andy, I wasn't sure were you calling public comment earlier when you said I haven't seen any hands. I'm going to call public comment in the moment. Okay, great. Thank you. So I wanted to finish the mode, get the motion out there so that everybody sees it. And then what what I'm proposing is public comment and then I'm going to call on Lynn to see if she has a motion. So, anything for the trustees want to say about the motion or the questions from the committee. Alex. Yeah, I just like to echo I think what's probably already been said but one, you know I appreciate that this is a large scary amount I certainly am not involved in fundraising of this map of this magnitude. But I do like Lynn said feel after after talking with people felt much better about the prospects of fundraising and trusting in people who do this professionally. And I think that this is a rather elegant solution that I like because from my perspective, it enables us to go forward it takes the risk away from the town. To proceed. We have repairs. We've moved into emergency mode around our HVAC system and are dealing with emergency issues every year, and that's not going away. You know, we know there's going to be a cost of town we know it's a minimum of 16 to 19 million but we don't really know what that cost is because I would like to think that if we did a repair we, we wouldn't just do the bare minimum, you know, to keep the building operational for the next 20 years I'd like to think that we would do something more than that. So for me, this was a nice way for us to proceed to a number certain, so that everybody can really start talking numbers, you know to a licious point. Right, it's hard to when you're not dealing with actual numbers it's really hard because you can't put scenarios together because there's about 1000 different scenarios. But when we get to the bids, all of a sudden we're actually looking at real numbers, real fundraising today, and a lot more information and there's still going to be a lot unknown it's still going to be somewhat of a leap of faith around what fundraising can be done but at least we'll know the cost and we'll know where we are. And if, again, this is one of the three options that I most prefer obviously but if we decide at that point together that it doesn't make sense to go forward it's not the most fiscally responsible town as a whole, then, you know, we're sort of taking off from the town $2 million of that 20 million or 25 I think Pam Rooney suggested that it might be, you know, off that number. So that's less than the town has to pay for the repair work, but then the library trustees have the opportunity to go out and try to, whether it's fundraise or seek CPA or whatever it is and I also want to recognize that fundraising opportunities around repairs are very different than fundraising opportunities around, you know, a renovation and expansion and so I don't take lightly that trying to get $2 million for this project. If we wind up doing a repair but it just feels like an elegant solution to take the risk off the town to allow the project to proceed so I hope that we can focus on this phase and getting to the next phase and then have another conversation once we actually know price certain about how best to proceed. Thank you. So I think Sean you can take the document off the screen I'm going to turn to the public. If you would like to be recognized for public comment. Appreciate raising your hand I know we have one person who's on telephone call that person would have to do star nine because it was raised hand function through any other through their computer system software. So if there's any public comment. This was from members of the council who are in attendance. If there's any public comment. Please raise your hand. I'm bringing in Jeff Lee into the room. Okay. I'm going to call or identify themselves and at least let us know what section of town you live in you don't have to divulge an address and the and then try and limit to two to three minutes I'm going to time for three. Appreciate to I'm Jeff Lee I live I think I'm in district five B now. And I appreciate what counselor Shane and Walker asked. How does this really affect the capital plan as a whole. In particular, we seem to be talking about the debt exclusion override that's going to be required to pay for the school project. And this decision is being presented as totally independent of that but the way I understand it they're they're intimately connected. The money that you borrow for the library project will not be available under the debt limit to borrow for the school so all that money will have to be funded through a debt exclusion override. And we taxpayers are also suffering from cost escalations and very difficult on us by by forcing us to pass a override to get the school that we want, or that override may not even pass if if it's too large so I really hope you'll consider that. And just wanted to mention one other thing that troubles me is that you know we mentioned the library promises that it can raise 14 million dollars for the library project but seems that no money has been pledged for the repair option. No fundraising for the repair option. And that doesn't seem fair to me or to the town. I really want to compare the two. Consider a fundraising component for the repair option. So, those are my comments. Thanks a lot. Thank you. I appreciate it Jeff. Anyone else. There are no other hands raised. There are no other hands. No other handsome. I'm not seeing so go ahead and just let me know who it is. No, I said there aren't any. I thought that was correct. Okay. So I appreciate the opportunity for public comment and Jeff coming forward and sharing his concerns. Lynn. By putting you on the spot, but I am. I just wanted to talk about how you would like you would propose to proceed. And make sure I have. What I'm looking for. Okay. I'd like to make the following motion. And then look for a second and then speak to the motion. Motion is to recommend that the town council. I would like to consider the motion. And so I would like to ask the mayor or the manager to enter into a new memorandum of agreement between the town of Amherst and the Jones library incorporated acting by and for its board of trustees. I hear a second. Second. Thank you, Michelle. Then please go ahead and speak to the motion. It also never really decided who pays for what when and clearly did not include the issues of the increased numbers and the increased need for fundraising. So in order for the town to proceed in a way that protects the town. As well as makes it very clear what our relationship is with Board of Trustees, and that it continues as a good and positive relationship. I think it's important for us to go to our chief executive whom we hired to do exactly this. And Ditto emotion, if you will, that we made a back on April 5 and have him enter into this negotiation. I just want to clarification is I've done it since emotion set before us. This is a motion to make a recommendation to the Council to make a recommendation to them. The ultimate motion will be would be a council decision, but it's a question of recommend this committee recommending that motion. Correct. Okay, Matt. Hi, thanks Andy, and thanks to Sharon and to everybody on the board of trustees it's it's really, you know, I think a town like ours the library is one of the most important buildings and institutions we have. Lynn, I just had one question about your motion. The bid estimate that we're talking about going towards is it implied or is it kind of assumed that we'll also get information on what a more robust renovation project would cost. And if not, you know, could, could that be a part of what we're asking for because I did notice in the notes that we really weren't able to get any any good information on a renovation project. First of all, the estimate we have at this point is a repair estimate it is not a renovation estimate. The only thing that it does do is does trigger the upgrades necessary for accessibility. That estimate itself costs somewhere between $100 and $200,000 updating that and it was an update of an original estimate. So, in order to get to that, we would be asking the trustees to spend yet more money to give us that. One thing is renovation is a whole different story. And if we decide now or in whenever the next point is I now understand it's December or December of 2023 or January of 2024. If we decide at that point not to continue, then we could ask for renovation, but the project that we're looking at now and the only project that is presently on the table is the one that the MBLC is providing us a grant for. And that does not allow us to say, Oh, we're not going to do this we're not going to add this. It just, it is what it is. So this motion is really to take into consideration the increased costs, the increased fundraising effort, and the new conditions and have as we did before, the town manager, negotiate a new MOU or MLA. So, I mean, if we want those other things done, then we also need to be prepared for a serious change in timeline for going forward. And we also need to be very clear about who's going to pay for the additional estimates, both in terms of repair, and then understanding that a renovation estimate is actually an entire new design, and is a much more costly process. I think the motion as you've proposed it Lin is too broad. I would like to give more specific instructions. I like the wording of what the trustees agreed to. So, I would like to, I don't, I'm not good at writing motions, but they, they made an offer that they would, as I understand it, and it was up on the screen I have it and writing they would. Pay the costs or reimburse the costs to get to the construction and bidding stage, and it would be all on their dime in some form, if we didn't go forward. So, completely abrogating our current MOU which has the much other feet, many other features in it. I think if this is a bridge MOU, because we would have to, should we decide to go forward, if it were more expensive they're going to be more expensive in the MOU than we've got right now. But I would like the MOU to just focus on this period between now and the bids and let, and I understand. We want to give Paul some discretion here but I think we want to give him some guidance also it's not. I don't want him to come back and say hey guys I've got you a 49 million capital project. It's a mortgage against the library or whatever you know so I want it to be more limited. So I don't know how to write it that way but, but I could support something that's recommending that with what the trustees have proposed to us to send him out to Paul is the right word it's a bridge it's something else would have to be done if we move forward at construction phase which would be yet again, another MOU but I don't want to just say this is it. So I'm looking for some guidance on here on how I can be more specific. Sure. So yeah I think I appreciate any kind of guidance you would like to give that the agreement that I will sign will, I think reflect the goals that the trustees put in their motion. The idea that approach was actually suggested by the town, in terms of including that credit Sean McGonough for creative thinking on these on these things. So, you know, I think, you know, giving some latitude to being able to execute an agreement and an expeditious way, I think is more valuable than sort of defining specific think clauses that need to be in it so I would suggest that trust is an important thing and I think that, you know, I'd look at it the same way you do as a bridge. How do we protect the town for a project that does not move forward and we incur incurring a significant expense to move to that next stage. So that's how I've looked at this. So I hope that that means that we're sort of on the same page Kathy. Can I just do a follow up. So I didn't say the specific wordy along the lines of what the trustees have proposed, you know, to see along those lines so it's, we've got their wording but that gives you a lot of this would that give you a lot of latitude. No, I think. I would say that that that wording is our wording. So, it doesn't undermine what you might want to do. So I'm just, so you're saying don't be super specific but I'm just looking for something. Linda said go out and get an M new MOU and I just want to be a little bit. Yeah. So what I'm saying is that the wording that the trust, if you say, if you think the trustees are in line with what you want to do. That's where we want to be as well in terms of signing this agreement. But you can choose the council can choose what it wants to do. Let me call a few other counselors and get back to Lynn. Michelle. That was my question about the process so if we approve this motion, then Paul and Sean work on a new or a bridge MOU and then. So we're recommending that to the council the council agrees to that and then they go out they do their thing. And then does that MOU come back to the council for feedback or further discussion to give the full council the ability to stop. When it would be signed and executed. Let me call on Alicia. Thank you. So I appreciate where Kathy was going with some of the changes, but I am wondering so like hypothetically, if we were to approve the change in the MOU. The next thing that would have to happen after we got the bids would be the town council would have to authorize or take a vote to authorize the borrowing for the new amount for the new estimate. I think that is the next decision point. You should Paul or Sean can talk about this a little bit too. Yeah. Go ahead. Okay. Yeah, Alicia last night you asked a great question just to sort of the timeline and we've started mapping that out so we should have sort of a good timeline for you if it's on the packet already we should have something before the 19th but the two things we see for the council would be this one coming up to authorize the town manager to work on this MOU and then the next time it would come back to the council would be when we when the project comes back for additional funding, which again right now the plan is for that to happen after construction bids are open. I just want to correct additional borrowing authorization, not necessarily additional funding. So, the council ultimately has to approve the entire borrowing authorization. Yeah, the requirement by the mblc is that there's a borrowing authorization for all the eligible costs of the project which we anticipate will be higher than what it is right now. So from our discussion last week, I put the order on the screen that had the borrowing authorization. It actually had a box on it that broke it down into really four sections is a CPA grant and the amount the town was committing and pledge from the Jones library, which is mostly through fundraising but the other mechanisms that we've discussed. So, it's that the borrowing authorization is going to increase, but decision on whether the town's commitment increases is a separate decision. So, the MOU that we are working or we are voting to see whether or not we recommend right now doesn't change the overall amount that we are committing to borrowing, or it does. Just not. When they're calling you because you might have an answer. Well, Alicia, I, it does not. The MOU as it presently exists or would be renegotiated does not increase borrowing at this time. The point at which we would have to increase borrowing is once we know what the cost of the project is with much firmer figures. And that's the point at which the council has to then authorize additional borrowing capacity. Because MS, Mass Board of Library commissioners requires that the town borrow up to the full amount of the contract. That does not mean the town has itself said, we will put more money toward the project. It just means we have to borrow that amount.  But what is on the table now is merely trying to create an MOU that reflects what the library trustees have talked about last night and voted on. I personally think it's a terrific solution. And it gives everybody skin in the game, if you will. I just like it that way. And so, but it does not mean that we have agreed to borrow anymore, and it does not mean that we have agreed to pay any more town money. Can I add to that to Andy? Yes. And then I have another comment, but go ahead. And just to really hone in so this MOAs are the amendment being considered is really what happens in the next two phases and what happens if the project doesn't move forward. This project or the, you know, what's being contemplated right now would be to get through to construction bidding it's going to cost about $1.8 million more. And should the project not move forward at that point, if the construction estimates come in too high, then how would the cost be allocated and what would happen at that point. So that's really what the MOA amendments or if it's a new MOA will focus on. So are you suggesting that motion is to recommend development of an MOA that covers a specific period. I'm not, I'm not recommending any changes to the language that just that is the intent of the MOA that we've been talking about is what happens for these next two phases to move to construction bidding. Andy, that's part of what I wanted to speak to about. I personally do not think that it's wise to just do an MOA for this bridge. I think it's wise to possibly do leave the existing MOA intact and maybe amend it with this language that creates the bridge, so that it gets us to the next decision point. It now has a clause in it that says, what if we decide not to go forward. And that clause is in the amendment to this. And if we decide not to go forward, then it expels out who's going to do what. And if we decide to go forward, it leaves intact what was already in the MOU. Now, having said that, this is one reason why we pay Paul as our town manager, and we retain our town attorneys. To advise us on these particular kinds of issues. And so Paul could come back to us and say, Hey, here's what the attorneys have advised. And I think we owe it to the attorneys and Paul to listen to that advice. So, whether the attorney, the attorneys may say, do it as an amendment, they may say, do all no agreement. My bottom line is, we didn't anticipate a failed project. And what we want to do is add language somewhere into some agreement that basically creates the bridge to go forward with the possibility that none of this hope happens that if there's a failed project, then the money that got spent. The library trustees would put that equal to their own repairs of the building. Thank you. And sorry, I had one other question like follow up to that same question. So is the reason we aren't just voting on authorizing the new amount because we expect that amount to change again. I'm trying to understand, like the full merit of. I can take it on or Paul can take it on. Yeah, that's part of it I think is that we wanted to wait until the estimates until we have a concrete number to vote on. And, you know, in the process of schematic design. Things change. Sometimes they get more expensive, but very honestly, what they do is get more firm. And so the number that you are finally voting on when we do any additional debt authorization is a much more firm and confident number. And so voting on a number right now with this estimate would actually I think be not a wise decision at all, because we don't know if it's going to go up down whether there's additional cost savings that the library is going to be able to find or any number of other costs. And just to reiterate what the MVLC said because we did ask them, you know what what happens in these cases where costs go up pretty significantly. They had said their experience was that the municipality would go back for the increase in the debt authorization. And then the final cost estimate of the construction document phase occurs. So we still have to look into that a little bit more but that that's expected to happen in October of 2023 would be when we'll get that next cost estimate by independent cost estimators. So it'll happen sometime between that cost estimate and when we open up construction bids that we would like to come back to the council for the increase in debt authorization. I think Sean, like just a couple minutes ago you said something about like moving us to the next steps, because then at that point when the bids come in we can then decide if those are too high. But do we not have a limit like what is being proposed right now is our absolute sky we will not go above that. And if. So I'm just trying to understand why we wouldn't take that vote now. If we expect it to increase, are we expecting that we will then increase with the increase, or is this our limit like how much is too much. So right now the town share is not changing the town share that the town will contribute 15.8 and we anticipate when it comes back to the council it'll still be 15.8 unless some other decision is made. But as to the timing of the vote and Paul or Lynn or anybody else wants to weigh in on that. I think I might have froze earlier. Can you hear me. You know you can hear me. Okay, thank you. So that was sort of my question I just I want to understand two things one is this MOU going to be reviewed by the full council before it is executed. That's question number one. Because I do agree with what Paul was saying that I think the trust piece and the intention of what was put in the motion by the trustees will be reflected however the part that I'm a little bit confused about now is, I didn't realize it was going to be for two phases, Sean you said it will take us out two phases so I was sort of thinking that it was going to get us to the bids, and then there would be another discussion. That's what it well that that is what so there are two phases between now and the bids there's design development and construction documents, and then we go to bids. So it will just get us to that bidding phase, but there's just there are two phases in between now and then. Gotcha. Okay. And so the MOU will not spell out how the decision is made about whether to go forward or not it's not going to say some upper limit or some dollar. It might so you know we've had some conversations around putting in the MOU, the, you know framework for how the project would move forward so or just being very clear that at that one bids are opened. The council will have to take action so that's one decision that will have to be made at that point before the town manager could execute a contract that will determine if the project goes forward. You know another one might be to review the fundraising at that point and see if it's on track. So, so in addition to what we've talked about with the MOU so far it could lay out sort of the framework for you know does the project move forward from that point. Right but the actual decision about whether it moves forward will still be a matter of discussion at that point it will always go back to the council. Okay, that was my concern it's not laid out if it because there's going to be a lot of unless unless the construction bids come in. Really low and we can all cross our fingers on that if they come in within the original that authorization and we're good. So I can't sign any construction documents unless all the funding is in place. And so that is a requirement from the town council like there's nothing I'm not allowed to sign anything until the funding is in place. Only the council can put the funding in place you've said you've established a certain number, but it's likely to be different than the number you've already established and that's why when we get to construction bid. We have firm numbers and that's when the council can vote and they can choose to not to approve or not approve at that moment in time. Thank you. And I also appreciate that Sean pointed out there was another cost estimate that will come in I think you said it in October which is something that I had heard in the meeting last night and I think it's important that folks know that there's going to be this next milestone that will will get to hear additional or new cost. And not this October next October. That would be great. But yeah, thank you. Thank you. I want to just come back to Paul Anderson. I don't want to tie your hands. So, Lynn is talking about this as an amendment. I a bridge MOU something that would indicate this is only getting us to this next point is what I'd like in the wording of the motion Lynn and my understanding from what we're hearing is where this, the number is in the 1.8 million somewhere five to two. It's 1.8. 1.8 is the number that is, it was, it's had a range before now it settled right in the middle which is not surprising. But that that's the number that's contained in the trustees assurance that it gets paid back in some way if we don't move forward so it just so the content of this bridge so I'd like the idea bridge somewhere to encourage to amend the other. And then the other thing I would request from those of you who are deep in the building project. You're going to learn a lot as these bids come in and I realized we don't have a plan B. That's a renovation and repair, but we will have an estimate on some of what is in historic Jones that will be more concrete than you do. So you will be getting some information on on the cost of the exterior the cost of the roof the cost of the HVAC systems which are now in a maybe frame that I wouldn't want to lose that information if we should have to pivot. Because that's not the same Alex as a full blown, but the 14 million which is now 16 million had a couple million in there for a design thing but it didn't ever envision clean carpets and moving things around it literally was just fixing stuff. I would like to collect that information to make sure we, we have it and something in me doesn't. I would hate to. It's hard to use the word waste, but to spend another 1.8 million whether it's your money town money. It's not anybody's money and not get anything for it. Should we go where Matt was saying what about renovation, just gathering information as we go along that I know is not quite the same, because we're now talking about making a decision. October 2023. I would tell your timeline, Alex or others who put that together. It's, then we have to go design we have to do a lot of other things. So, and I mean while everything's falling apart so I would. If I had to pivot I would, if I'm still around on JCPC I would welcome a $16 million request from Jones along with figure out how to get CPA money how to grab some of those donations that Bob said may still be on the table to to do a good job on fixing something wrong with a library, making a DA, and having it look spiffy when we, when we walk in, you know, it's, it's got some absolutely gorgeous features in it, but they get clouded by everything else that's going on, which is understandable since you're planning on doing this big project so that's my please not to make the best of this next phase and gather that information. Because we're in this unreal world of what's the price of anything since it keeps changing around us. So, thank you. I'm going to keep going for a little bit but I urge the people who hands up to limit to two minutes at maximum Alicia. My hand was just still up from before but also I think that nobody answered the last question that I asked regarding the timeline for the decision for authorizing the borrowing for the full amount versus the mo versus like amending the mo you and what the merit and the difference is there, and why, like, is there something, is there something we're waiting for or something that's preventing us from just making that decision now, rather than amending them. I'm going to speak to the timeline. October. I think Sean did to some extent and answer that we will have our next best estimate in October of 2023. It's at that point that because of what we've gone through which is the design development and the construction documents that we would actually be able to have a much firm and reliable cost. And it's at that point that we make the decision when we vote on increasing bond authorization. Yes, the cost that we vote on has to be exactly the right number like so the authorization that exists now cannot continue because the numbers different, or I can be in the ballpark because again the second part of my question was when we talked about how much the bids come in and it's too much like how do we know what is too much, and are we expecting them to be higher than what we have right now. And so why we would not just take a vote to authorize that amount, unless we are thinking that we are going to be authorizing for higher. Paul or Sean do you want to get into a public bidding. So, so I think the idea is that the council would only vote one more time on this on this on this debt authorization. Otherwise to keep coming back to the council repeated those because we don't know what that number is yet and to put a number out there I would not be confident putting any number in front of the council at this moment in time. We don't have enough information to ask you to vote on anything. If you voted once to indicate the support for the project. Now our job is to get you to a number that you can vote with confidence to borrow to authorize the borrowing for. So I think the idea is not to give you a number that's it's whatever number we gave you today would be not accurate. So it would not be fair for the council to vote on something that you would rightly say how confident are you in this number today, you know, September 14 then I would say, not confident at all because we need to get the we need to continue with the design, do the value engineering, get a firm number, and then the council decides if you want to move forward on the project or not. The other pieces that in public bidding. You really what you do is you put a number out there for an estimate on the project. And basically that either encourages people to bid encourages people to come in maybe even lower. But I'm going to be very sure that the project can be done for that cost, and you don't want to be putting on a number that's lower than you might need, or a number that's just not firm. Public bidding is very different than it mortgaging or bidding on a house it's it's just a different animal. Okay, so it's not that it can't happen it's just that we don't think it's the best course of action. It wouldn't be definitely true but it. I mean we could do it but then we might have to come back and do it again. And even then, it's in the public bidding world, putting out a number now when we don't have reliable that design development and construction documents is really not very wise. Okay, thank you. One other thing that I'll throw out, and this is that my role as a member. And that is that I'm hoping we get a better number from the MVLC as a result of the efforts that we're making with our legislative delegation and in consortium with many, many other communities that are in some of the position so that additional unknown. Let's get to more comments and see if we can move to a vote one is. Well, this is principally a committee discussion Bob said his hand up for a while. Quick clarification I think the number that we've been talking about is the million eight or so which is the additional costs are going from here to the end of a bidding process. In addition to that there's about $400,000 which has already been spent so the amount that would have to be returned to the MVLC is actually more of the order of $2.2 million. And the other point which is that this assumes that we go all the way to the bidding, rather than stopping at a new cost estimate, if we stop at cost estimate, then the architects are limited to what they have actually built rather than a fixed sum, which is built into it. And that's all the way to the bids. And so that might reduce it a little bit but I'm just saying that you should just be aware that what we're talking about is returning to the, to the MVLC 2.2 million dollars from the town, or from the library, but from somebody. Can I clarify. So, to kind of separate things so there's the money the MVLC has given us, which they give you sort of one fifth of the total grant. Every year you hit a milestone so sharing you might have the exact number but they've given us a fifth it's not based on any exact costs it's just they've given us a fifth. At the same time we are incurring costs for design and OPM work. So, Bob's right we've incurred about $400,000 so far, and the projection to get through bidding is 1.8 so that maybe the total spent on the project at that point would be about 2.2 or something like that. But that is not what would go back to the MVLC will go back to the MVLC is whatever they gave us for that first milestone payment. It may it's going to be in the two range so it's in a similar range but it's, but they're those two are not linked together the MVLC just gives a fifth. It's roughly 2.7 million dollars that that they have a whole 2.7 will have to go back to the MVLC. So, so we would return to them the money that we still keep in an account. Plus, we would replace the money that has been spent which would be 2.2 million dollars. So they're about from the town or from the library. Right, if you think about this, the sources and that debt authorization. Right now the 2.2 because it is coming out of the town's debt off the town share essentially the 15.8. Because until we just know the project's moving forward, it won't come out of the MVLC share until we know that it's going to continue because otherwise that money will have to go back. Yeah, I just, I want to just say that I think the, the approach that we're recommending makes sense and is a prudent approach and I think it'll, it'll, it'll be the best approach we can make given the uncertainties. I do just want to caution that by October of next year, the council needs to have a pretty good idea about how much the four projects capital projects are going to cost and how we're going to finance them. Because we can't make a decision on one without understanding the bigger decision on all four and my tenure on the finance committee comes to an end in June, so I may not be around to kind of remind everybody next October. I just do want to say we need to have a better understanding before we can make a sound decision on one of the four projects or two and four. That's all. And quickly, if I can respond to, I think that makes a lot of sense. At that point, we'll, we'll know what we'll have better estimates for the library will know about the school project. We may or may not know about the DPW's cost at that point in terms of having exact numbers. And we likely won't know the fire so we have better estimates for the fire station but we won't have bids I can't imagine at that point but I think we will have a lot better information to have a more detailed plan at that point. I wasn't expecting that we would have exact numbers for all four, but we should have better estimates and we should know what the, what the interest rates are and have a better understanding how we're going to finance them. So, anything else, otherwise, so I would ask Lynn to if you have it available to just read the motion again to so everybody knows what they're voting on and then I'm going to call for vote. I'm going to share it on the screen. So, with that said, I'm going to start voting and I think just going to randomly pick and then go alphabetical from there. Bernie. I'm in support. Michelle. I. Kevin. I'm uncomfortable with this because it doesn't say bridge it's too broad so I'm going to vote no, but I am in support of the bridge idea. Okay, I'm voting. Yes. So, Alicia. No, for the same reason that Kathy voted no. Yes. And I support. Matt. I support. Okay, so the vote is three s to know the voting members and three members of the committee, who are members support the decision that was just made by the majority. So, we have completed is there anything else that we have Michelle I see your hand up. I just want to say that in my observation I think we were mostly on the same page and I would hate to see this not go through with a unanimous recommendation, because of some wording. I know it's six o'clock we've been here for a couple hours but I'm just wondering if Kathy and Alicia have some wording that they can contribute that would make them comfortable to vote, you know, in favor of this and in support of this. I don't see why we wouldn't try to work through that for a couple more minutes, because I don't think that were I think we're on the same page based on my observations. I'm just looking to you Andy as a chair but also to Kathy and Alicia to see if there's just a morning we can add and and and vote again. Thank you. If I recall the council rules we would need a motion to reconsider. That's correct. Yes, so Michelle needs to make a motion to reconsider needs to be seconded, we need to vote it real quick, and then move on to a motion being placed on the floor which can be a brand new motion. Okay, so I'd like to let you take a friendly amendment. Yeah, that's true. After all it's a committee meeting. I'd like to make a motion to reconsider unless a friendly amendment is the easier pathway here I'd like to make a motion to reconsider and look at the motion to reconsider because we just passed a motion. Okay, so I'd like to make a motion to reconsider. Second. Okay, so we've motion seconds any discussion on the motion. If you want to speak to it or Kathy and speak to it I saw your hands up and down. I think I said just I think we can get there I really do and I'd like to see us do that. I'm going to start voting and I'm going to go. Just one one notch down on the alphabetical list and start again so Michelle. I and Kathy. Yes. I will vote yes. Lisa. Yes. Yes. Or Matt support. We're all among friends so I'll support. So this is a a motion to reconsider that was unanimous and it's one of all three members who are resident members of the committee. Therefore, motion is back on the table and somebody wants to suggest different wording that is presently on the screen. That needs to be a motion. Kathy your hands up. Okay I'll take a stab and I'm trying to keep as much as here so to enter into a new memorandum of agreement with an addenda or an amendment that includes a bridging agreement for the time period. Up to and then is it the restricts receipt of the construction bids whatever the right wording is. Does the bridging make sense for bridging up to the period to the construction bids. It does. I think once it's settled that one of maybe ask a question about what it means, what the intent is. Yeah, so I'm just trying to, to say that we're not really rewriting the entire thing. We're adding a clause, an addendum, an amendment that gets a new agreement that gets us to what happens during this next phase. So I don't care what the wording is. I just am uncomfortable. Both with trying to explain this to residents just go out and negotiate a new agreement. We're talking about a particular time period. And we know what we're talking about. So as I said, I am not good at the exact wording. So I'm using the word bridging, because that's what we have to be doing. And it goes in that way. And as we discussed earlier, Lynn talked about an addendum or an amendment. So it wasn't, and, and then we know that Paul and the legal accounts are going to have to figure out how to word all this thing. So that's my intent, just to make it more specific that. That this, this isn't. 11 months, 12 months period. Andy, can I follow up quickly with a question and a comment? So the question would be, so based on that, you would not want us to update, you want us to keep the existing amendment or the existing MOA, not update any of the numbers, which are based on sort of the previous project budget, but keep that in place. And instead of entering to a new agreement, what I would suggest what you're saying is to enter into and start with a Dendem amendment right there as opposed to the part that says new MOA. So I think Paul is about to say why this is problematic because our MO, or Paul, go on. So I'm just looking for something that talks about this concept. No, I think that actually this is fine. What you're saying is you have an agreement. I just want to make sure you're saying, I want to make sure this bridging agreement is included in this agreement in the new MOA. And I think that's what these words say. Within a Dendem amendment, that includes a bridging agreement. That's precisely what you're saying. And I don't have a problem with that at all. That makes no sense. But just clarify, is it a new MOA or is it our existing MOA? Well, I think we have to talk to the trustees about that. Well, it still has that close strong at the very beginning anew that now has this Dendem. Okay, so I didn't, I was trying to leave as much of the words there as possible. And I would be able to explain this. Is that what that's what I'm partly looking for. I'm going to ask for a second. Second. Okay. So speaking regarding the motion on the floor that's been made in second at Alicia. Oh, sorry. My hand was up for wording suggestion. So I don't have anything else to offer right now. I've always opened the wording suggestions that we should. Well, no, it was, I put it up in the beginning when we were talking about it and I was going to say something very similar but more along the lines of the phases. So I think that this is in line with what I was going to say. And I've taken out the word new and I rearranged where the phrase with an addendum amendment that includes a bridging agreement for the time period up to receipt of the construction bids. Just for radical reasons. That's better grammar. Yes, thank you, Bob. Bernie. This is one of those rare occasions where a preamble would have done it but since you've got this motion, I think we can move forward. Okay, anything else? In that case, I'll go back to the same building pattern that I was in before. Move down one. Andy, can I just jump in? Sorry, again, this is super technical and I looked at Paul, whether you think this matters. Do we want to say receipt of construction bids? Is that really when we want the time period to go up until maybe that's too technical and maybe we could maybe... That's a really good point because there are certain things that trigger at the receipt of construction bids. We want to say creation of construction. Yeah. Or do we want to say review of construction bids? I'd leave it a little more vaguer up to construction bids. What do you think, Sean? Maybe action by the council. But when it comes back to action by the council, which would give it a little more flexibility in the time. I just worry if we say receipt of construction bids, we haven't opened them yet.  I don't know if this is better but I just wanted to make sure it's super clear. After receipt of construction bids. Yeah. I think you could say after receipt of construction bids. And the other is I wouldn't put that as if we do decide there's a requirement to... I mean, we could amend this again if we need to, but if there is a requirement that we do it sooner, then construction bids to have the council is required to take action before that, but... Great. This is where I... Again, I want to make sure with Kathy and Alicia that this embodies your desire, okay? And then I think we have to turn it over to Paul and Sean and our attorneys to come back with any changes and details about this. So I've got a better suggestion. How about for the time period for a bridge and agreement for the time period prior to moving to construction? So I think that means we're not going to go to that next phase. This agreement goes up until the bidding phase and opening the bids and anything that is involved there and the agreement goes up until we would advance to construction because we want to do that until contracts are signed. I have to ask if that's agreeable to the seconder. Yeah, what if we... Oh, sorry. Could we do prior to the selection of the bid? Or do we need to choose the actual bid itself? Well, you can't move to construction unless we selected a bidder. So I think this language works. So you're okay with the wording, Kathy? I am okay.  And I think this now does it when everyone's trying to define exactly what the time period is. The library trustees motion actually provided those words whatever those words were. And that's all I was trying to do is get away from the carte blanche of a brand new memo, memorandum, but something that focused on this initial period that we're grappling with. We're giving... This is giving a recommendation for a green light for a particular time period is what I think we're asking Paul to go out and negotiate and write it in ways all of us can understand. Can we check with Alicia to see if this captures for her? Yeah, this is okay. So Kathy and Lynn, are you okay? Because you're the maker and seconder. I'm fine. Yes. Okay, so then we'll go back to voting one last time. And then let's start with Kathy this time. Yes. And that'll be yes. Alicia. Yes. Lynn. Yes. Bob. Matt. Support. Ernie. Support. And Michelle. Aye. Okay, so it is unanimous with support from the three resident members. So that concludes it. And I think I wanna take the time. I don't know who's left in the audience from the library, trustees and staff. See Sharon's still here. So I wanna just thank you very much for working with us and educating us kind to everybody. You've all been really wonderful and we very much appreciate it. So at this point, I just wanna say one thing to my committee and then I'm just gonna adjourn because it's later than we wanted it to be. There are a lot of issues that have been referred to the finance committee that we have not had the opportunity to discuss. And I wanted to make sure that all of the committee was aware of the burdens that are going forward and that we're gonna have to develop a work plan that is going to enable us to get at that variety of issues. The things that the council has referred recently to us are financial consequences of the proposal to have trash hauling performed as a town service with composting as an additional feature. The street light proposal that was made a week ago at the meeting and the street acceptance proposal that has been made but needs a lot of work on it having to do with accepting Hopbrook Road and Kestrel Trust. And the fourth one is the special act that has been proposed to submit to the legislature that would enable Amherst to create a taxation on real estate transfer. So those have been mostly referred to more than one committee. I think the Hopbrook Kestrel was just referred to finance and then. And so we do need to get that. Plus we are getting to the season where we're getting close to the budget projections for the next fiscal year. And so that has to move. That starts the process where we get into doing a draft for the council of council budget guidelines. And there's other issues that have been suggested that we consider that are things that I just can't at this point list that take too long to do that. But there was a list of things for us to consider. So we are entering into a period where there's just gonna be a lot of demands on us and I wanna work with you to think about ways to do this most efficiently and effectively so that we can fulfill our responsibilities. And I will not do that for the minutes tonight, but it was a forewarning for them. And I may do part of it by memorandum and schedule another meeting. The next two Tuesdays are gonna be difficult to schedule because of Jewish religious holidays interfere with both of the next Tuesdays, I believe. But with that, is there anything else that people wish to bring up that is unanticipated business? I know that there's gonna be disappointed by Athena that we didn't get to the minutes, but I just can't do it tonight. So with that, we're adjourned. Thank you.