All right, thank you all for coming. It's actually great to see other people involved and interested in what we're doing with mentoring in the open source community and the OpenStack community as a whole. I am very lucky today to be joined by this panel and even luckier that quite a few of the people on this panel have actually been mentors for me since I started out in OpenStack. So I'm gonna introduce myself and then let them introduce themselves. My name is El Marquez. I'm a technical evangelist for Linux Academy. I always say that this gives me the opportunity to be a professional noob because my job is literally to get to play with new technologies, break them, and then go find the people who are willing to help and teach. So it's an exciting and intimidating position and with that, I've gotten to meet these wonderful people and I'm gonna let Amy kick things off by introducing herself. Oh, they're not in order. All right, well fine. We're gonna be difficult here. All right, well Jill doesn't wanna start, so we'll start with Amy. There we go. So my name is Amy Marish. I'm an OpenStack training architect at Linux Academy. So basically, I develop and do all the training that we have for OpenStack. I am on the OpenStack user committee and I am the chair of the OpenStack diversity and inclusion working group. All right, Jill. I'm Jill Rulow. I'm a software engineer at Red Hat working on the Triple O project and with Elle, run the OpenStack cohort mentoring program. Nicole? Thanks for being here. I'm Nicole Huseman. I work at Intel as a community and developer advocate for things like OpenStack and Kubernetes. I've also been working with Danielle at Bitergia on some of the OpenStack gender diversity research. I've worked with Amy on the speed mentoring activities for the OpenStack community and I also am involved in the chaos project, specifically the diversity and inclusion work group. Hello, Rikwan. So my name is Danielle. I'm one of the founders of Bitergia. We are a software analytics company. Well, I had the opportunity to work with Nicole together in the OpenStack gender diversity report for the last couple of years indeed. I'm working with her as well in the chaos which is the community health analytics for open source software. It's a linear foundation project. In this case, specifically focused on the diversity and inclusion working group. Well, I'm part of the inner source column so you can find me there. Thank you for your time. So I guess we're not gonna waste too much time. We're gonna get right into the questions because it's kind of where we're here to get to actually have an opportunity to discuss mentorship as a whole. And so we're gonna start out with just questions about mentoring in general. And the first question that I had was actually a conversation that I had with Amy and Jill the other day. And we always hear about how important mentorship is in the community and how everybody needs a mentor and how great the programs can be and they can further your career. But one of the questions that's never really addressed is what really is mentorship?  Nami, I know that you had quite a few thoughts on this one. Yeah, I mean, to me, a mentor is someone who's going to ask you the questions that you need to answer to decide where you're going to go. So it's not so much that they're going to tell you how to get there, but they're gonna help you figure out how to get there. So what we also refer to as coaching, to me, is someone who's going to give you the steps you need to meet the goal. They're not necessarily gonna question you and help you figure out how to get there, but they're going to help get you there. And then we're having a bit of a discussion on what a role model is. And Al thought a role model was someone who you didn't necessarily know, but you looked up to. And to me, a role model can actually be your mentor or somebody who coaches you or whatever, but it's someone you look up to and inspire to be. And it can be all, all those three steps can be one person or they can be multiple people. And the idea of being that as you grow your career, your mentor may be one person and then you've reached your goal in the end of where that relationship goes and you'd have another mentor for another area of your life. So mentoring isn't just work related. It can be personal. It can be anything that you feel you need help with. Nicole, I know that you've had a lot of experience with different types of mentoring programs throughout the open source community. And I was wondering if you see these roles, if you see these separations inside of actual mentoring programs. Yeah, I mean, so there are different roles to play. I guess I would back up and say that one of the things that I find in terms of where mentoring plays a role is in welcoming new folks into the community. Mentoring can take many different forms. Some of them very organic. In my case, and you mentioned my experience, right? In my case, it was organic. There were a few folks in the open source technology center at Intel who really encouraged me to play or participate more in open source communities. OpenStack community being the first community that I dove into. But yeah, I mean, there were certainly structured programs as well. The OpenStack community I have found offers so many ways to get involved. The cohort program, I know that we wanna focus on today and then the speed mentoring activities as well. One of the things that we found, and I know in our introductions, we mentioned the OpenStack diversity research that we've worked on. There's some data points there, Al, that I think are really exciting in terms of how mentorship programs play a role in welcoming newcomers into the community and in making sure that they have a place there and encouraging their contributions such that those contributors, that we retain those contributors and they feel like they have a belonging within the community. Before I ask Daniel to kind of present some of that information so you guys can see all the data that's gathered, Jillma put you on the spot here. And we are co-leading the OpenStack mentorship program and I could paint this as all roses for you guys but honestly, it's been a hard struggle. It's been something that we've really been trying to get off the ground and I was hoping that you might speak to some of the issues that we're facing with starting a mentorship program over, rebooting it. Yeah, so back around the Vancouver Summit, kind of the community that was running the what used to be called the long-term mentoring program realized that it had kind of tapered off, it wasn't really having participation, it had had some struggles. That was a one-to-one long-term, you got paired off with one person and you would go for many, many months having that mentoring relationship and there were some challenges that they were running into with people were not being responsive, they'd get busy, things were falling through. So there was an idea to reboot it and try and reorganize it to have more kind of fault tolerance to those types of things that can happen in one-on-one relationships. So L.U. and I had stepped up and said, hey, we'll give it a go, we'll try it. And the idea we came up with was the idea of having mentoring cohorts, having groups of people in the community come together and say, as a group, let's mentor newcomers in these ideas so that we can bounce different ideas around, people can cover for each other, have different time zones or availability. So we put together all these ideas, kind of announced it, went out, we had a lot of interest people that were like, yeah, I wanna do this, let's do it. And then not as much follow-through. So we know with the one-on-one mentoring, there's certainly more accountability. There's one person you can chase after and say, hey, you agreed to do this, you need to come do this. With doing the group-based approach more of the kind of community approach, we've lost that accountability to be able to chase after one person and say, hey, you signed up for this, you need to do this one thing. We're trying to figure out how do we hold people to following through, to participating, to getting involved and just getting that going so that there's traction. Can you try to see if the mic's on? Can we get the question mic on? Thank you. I was there at Vancouver and I signed up to be on the thing with the cohort I've got on the, oh, no problem. I mean, it really actually was no problem in that it was no work because I've been on that IRC channel since Vancouver and it's been dead air. I've been on the mailing list and it's been 99% dead air. I'm not sure that we have as much of a problem with getting mentors to sign up as we do with getting mentees to know that it's there and to use it. You know, to kind of take issue with a premise, it was one of the first things that y'all said. Everybody needs a mentor. I mean, that's clearly not the case because there are lots of people and not all of them are participating in mentorship and various kinds. I've certainly been forced by my employers in the past to participate in mentor mentee activities. Do you have to have a mentor? Not my style. Don't, you know, leave me alone. But I think part of the problem here is then having people understand that this is available to them. People who do want mentorship, people who do need it. That's just kind of my... And I apologize if it came off that only mentors had signed up. We also had, we've had 20, 25 mentees sign up. Yeah.  OpenStack is interested. People want mentors. No, not everyone, obviously. But, you know, in general, the community is wanting mentorship programs. We're like, okay, we're going to present this. And we kind of want to know what's the next step? What are we doing wrong? What are we doing right? How do we get the news out there? We wrote super user articles. We're on the mailing list. We sent it to every OpenStack list. And so we're kind of, want to hate community. You said you wanted this, like give us feedback on what we can do to make it better. You know, is that fair to say? Anybody have, Amy? And the accountability isn't just your mentor and you didn't respond to your mentee. It's also the other way around. You know, a mentor would go, I emailed my mentee five times and never got a response. You know, I'd go great lengths without getting a response from a mentee. So you have, both parties have to be involved and real life does come into effect, which is why we thought the cohorts would be better because even if the mentors got busy at work, the hope was that the mentees would also be helping each other, therefore making bonds within the community, therefore being retained in the community. Yeah, I think it's a really hard thing to set up. And I understand like sending it to mailing lists and stuff, but I guess everybody in this room is the same. We are all members of God knows how many mailing lists. And a lot of the time you don't have time to read them. You just like, oh, yeah, okay. Ben, or I'm gonna put it in a folder to read later. No one ever reads that folder, ever.  And I think maybe what you should try and do is to contact the big company sponsors and say to them, okay, we want to get this thing off the ground. Do you have human resources that can help us? Or do you have an internal communications team perhaps that can help us get this thing off the ground? Once it's established, you would find that it's a lot easier. So I'm interested in being a mentee and I had no idea that this existed at all. Probably because I put that mailing list in the folder to go and die. So yeah, maybe the big sponsor companies could help you you know, get off the ground, I don't know. What's that? I think it's kind of becoming a community input and I'm really enjoying this. No, we're good if you guys have input. Yes. That's awesome. So I think that's one category. You're on the mailing list, but this one got lost in the noise. I think we have a huge contingent of people who haven't yet kind of folded into the mailing list. People who come in fresh and want to get started from absolutely raw. I was in a session earlier today about the contributor portal. And one of the things that I had meant to bring up that I think I forgot about in the discussion as it does kind of went off on a tangent, but that when people, brand new people land on that page there isn't something that says I'm completely lost, get me a mentor, right? And so that, because these people don't have get, they don't have, they may not even have their mail client. They're not subscribed to the list at all. They're not gonna see that stuff. If they did, if I went in and subscribed today how long until I see a post that says by the way, there's a mentorship program available. I'm certainly not gonna go back to Piper Mail and read all the archives. So unless that was happening on a regular basis. So that initial touch point I think is a place that we can really focus on. Yeah, that's all right. So we have some links that will be on the last slide which will include where to go to sign up for the mentoring program. When you fill that out, that notifies us and we send you a direct personal email. It's another email. But you will get a direct email for us with instructions of how the program works, where to go to do next things. I would be interested if you sign up to give us feedback that on what that experience looks like. Is that a good first user experience or not and what we could do to improve it if that's not? And I think to go with what you said, I think. So Amy's, it's quite funny. So Jill is mentoring me to be part of joining OpenStack and getting this mentorship program growing. And then Amy and Kendall are mentoring us. So we're kind of practicing what we preach. So it's a little bit of a cohort there too. But to reach out to the foundation and see what we can do to be kind of like more of an active project so that we're recognized right up front as people are joining. So before I guess we go too far into that, I know Daniel has done a lot of research on the subject and I was hoping you might present some of your findings so that we have a little bit more of a foundation to continue our conversation on what we can do to improve OpenStack mentorship. Yeah, so this is part of work done together with Nicole and in this case with Iterian Intel. And we were trying to understand what it means mentorship program from a more quantitative point of view to basically having numbers in terms of contributions and having specific questions such as for how long these interns are retaining the community. And then we can compare with the rest of the community to check if from a quantitative point of view being mentored means something else, right? That if you are over the average in retention rate or under the average. So this is an example of what we were in life in. This is a map of the world with the Tennedician's team till May-August 2017. So we had in OpenStack around 40 people from 13 different countries. Most of them or a big portion of them coming from India in this case. But well, you can see the representation here. I'm from 17 different projects. It's interesting that I mean in OpenStack there are 60 or 80 different projects. But in terms of the outreach and this specific mentorship program, let's say a few of them were doing mentorship. So then going to the question of there are do we need more mentors or mentees? So it's something that is going there. And there are some projects that had up to, I remember five interns, it was Keystone, right? And Horizon. Horizon. So those were the two projects with the highest number of mentees in this case. So the next step would be probably going directly to those projects and say, hey, what's going on here? What can we learn from you? You had the highest numbers, right? And then we had 31 different mentors. So if you have the numbers we have something like up to two, well, one to one in terms of mentors and interns. So up to you, my friend. Thank you. Then the question we had was, OK, so if the goal of the foundation is basically to bring people from underrepresented minorities in technology to work on OpenStack, adopt OpenStack, use OpenStack, and develop OpenStack and work in the community, it means that the foundation wants to retain them for a while, right? We all want to be community here. So we had this question on top of this. And then we realized having the numbers that basically five out of the 38 interns are still contributing nowadays. And this is around 13%. So that's a number. And then if we compare the usual trend for the community, this is the retention rate is under 10%. Of course, I cannot say or we cannot say that this is because of the mentorship, but it's something we should explore definitely. So we have a higher retention rate when mentoring or at least in outreach than in the usual trend of the community. So that's something. Of course, we are comparing like 40 people with 7,000 commuters. So there is a big gap here. But these are some initial numbers. And the retention in media is around 18 months. So outreach is, as far as I remember, three months, right? Period. And we are talking that this is taking six times that. So people start working a bit before, people start working for a while after this. So that's something. Then we had this number of contributions in terms of, okay, so what's the whole picture here in terms of what all of these people have been contributing to the community and the foundation? Well, these are net numbers. So they simply say nothing. But this is kind of a way to illustrate the kind of things that mentees basically are producing in each of the projects that we have here. So we have 1,000 in general with commit or changes in image. We do not have information about code reviews in terms of plus one or plus two. And I received another interesting question by Sage Sharps asking for where are those current contributors working for? So basically the companies that are part of this. I don't have those numbers, but these are a couple of really interesting questions. And yeah, so in terms of the open stack, what we are doing is, well, first, we go to the publicly available data sources. So mailing list, our public, carrot, and kit. So we retrieve everything. And then for outreach, at least when we were analyzing this, the list of developers were public. So it was kind of a manual effort. So we were there. We retrieved all of the information from open stack. And then I was basically one by one like, okay, let's see this developer who has been participating and looking for their activity. Then, yeah. I'm not sure if you're aware of this. Yeah, yeah, I'm aware of this. But I mean, I was using Stakelytics for another thing that was first, I have two data sources, two inputs for my analysis. So just to compare. And then the second one is that in some cases, Stakelytics didn't have some of the developers. I don't know why. So I was perhaps because identities and so on. The problem with Stakelytics in that specific case is that you need to specify some name, but we did have all of the identities of our developer in the database. So that was easier in this case. But that was basically the main difference. So this is the definition of the bonus stack foundation in terms of what they want to achieve without reaching. So the question now is, are we achieving this? So then I guess that, or I think I believe that with data we can have at least some part of the answer here, which is the data. So I'm gonna leave, or do you wanna say anything about the resources? I was gonna leave them up in the background so people could have them for a bit while we discussed, but I didn't know if you wanted to mention anything specific about any of these or anyone on the panel? Is anyone not familiar with any of these? That's good. So the contributor portal is kind of a, choose your own adventure, I'm an operator, I'm a user, I'm a developer, I'm this or that. And the idea being that you'll drill down to get more important information. The first context, CIC currently is developer focused, but it's a, their goal is that if you need to ask a question, they're gonna be there waiting whether you're on ask.openstack.org, a mailing list or whatever, and they're gonna jump on it and get you a response. There's also a move to make an operator's version and possibly even a user's version. Now the OpenStack Upstream Institute is one and a half days before the summit starts, so we've been here since Sunday. Technically we've been part of summits since Sunday, but the OpenStack Upstream Institute also goes out to some of the OpenStack days with Ildico and Kendall, and they do it locally. D&I, we meet every other week, we have working on a diversity survey, we are now where the cohort mentoring program is under as we move the women of OpenStack underneath diversity and inclusion, so we do all those type of activities. We had some unofficial activities and some official activities this week. Mentoring programs, our focus of course being the cohort mentoring, but we also have outreach-y and in the past have been part of Google Summer of Code, and as Nicole mentioned earlier, we have speed mentoring at the summit. So Google Summer of Code is a program put on by Google and you apply, and if you get in, the help you get an intern, and I believe it's more one-on-one type mentoring similar to outreach-y, this year we did not get accepted because there are so many people applying to be part of the program, so hopefully they'll expand it next year and we can get back into it, but as a, so this year we just have cohorts and outreach-y. So you guys can see there's a lot of mentorship programs out there, there's a lot of things that OpenStack is trying to be a part of, and on top of this you have OpenStack having individual projects. You know, you've got, you've caught a container, has caught a container, sorry, has kind of their own program in the way they're onboarding people. We have dozens of onboarding sessions that happen today. So I guess what the question is here and it's gonna go to the panel as well to you guys is what can we as the OpenStack mentorship program do help to really solidify your efforts and help bring in and onboard those people who are wanting to join your programs? I was hoping that Amy and Jill will tell you guys we came up with four different cohorts that we were going to focus on to try to kind of attract that new blood. Do you guys wanna talk about what the cohorts were and their goals? Yeah, so the four cohorts that we initially came up with to start the cohort mentoring program with were FirstCloud, FirstPatch, FirstPhoneCall, FirstCloud, FirstPatch, FirstTalk, And FirstCoA, Well, CoA. CoA, so the CoA is the Certified OpenStack Administrator certification. So that would be helping people pass that exam, learn the things they need to do to deploy and operate Cloud and get certified. FirstCloud is deploying and operating a Cloud for the first time. FirstPatch is just getting a patch accepted to a project and FirstTalk would be getting coached on submitting to a CFP, whether it's for summit, for an OpenStack days or some other event where you wanna talk about OpenStack and then hopefully getting a talk accepted for something. So we thought those were kind of good things that covered a broad section of what people might wanna do in the community and might be good jumping off points for the program. So let me hit a couple of things that you said there. First of all, the question of different projects operate in different ways and how do you navigate that craziness and do you need somebody that's in the specific project? This kind of ties into, like again, what we were talking about earlier today at the contributor portal discussion forum, which is that a lot of people come at the contributor portal, there's one section of it where you undo a twisty and it's got a list of all of the project groups on it, which is great. If you know where the hell you wanna start in the first place, which a lot of people don't, and they need sort of an initial sort of switch mentor to give them even that initial guidance and that person doesn't need to be project specific at all, right? I think attempting to go into projects and trying to make them all more similar in the way they operate is a non-starter, right? I think we agree on that.  No, I don't disagree. I think that for us, I would at least personally see that as falling under first patch. Someone could come to us to say, hey, I wanna contribute, I've never contributed for it. Can you give me guidance for what projects to get into, who are good resources, how do I even go about picking a project? Would absolutely be something that I would say. So one of the things that came out this morning was that actually I think it's gonna get implemented is when you get into that page, it's, I called it the IKEA guide to first patch, which is there's gonna be a spot in there where you can say, I'm a developer and I just want to know how the process goes, and it would actually walk you through a tutorial, go clone the sandbox repository, go edit this file, go put it in a thing, go get review, we'll have a bot that's sitting there watching for those reviews that'll, to be realistic, it'll wait three weeks and then minus one your patch, right? And then it goes back and goes through the process basically and you get to go through the full workflow and then eventually you go fix it and then it submits it, it'll actually merge your patch for you, right? And that doesn't have, that flow at a high level should be at least common enough to all the projects that it would be applicable no matter where you want it to go, and that would kind of give you some amount of confidence to kind of go on from there. Now, it doesn't really involve mentors necessarily, it's an automated mentor in a sense, but as I mentioned earlier, getting a spot on the contributor portal that says I'm the kind of person who doesn't want to do a tutorial on my own, I'd like a little hand-holding, I'd like a little bit more personal attention, get me a mentor, right? Like it helped me with a person kind of a flag and you were talking about, you guys obviously communicate with Kendall on a regular basis, while that talk is still fresh in her head because she was the one running it. Yeah, plug her with that, and I think that's probably good. And I know there's some discussion and effort being made to put the Stackup Stream Institute online. The way I see combining kind of what you were talking about with the first patch is the mentor may not actually do so much mentoring as kind of serving as almost a first contact SIG member, oh, what are your interests? Oh, you know, you may really like Nova. Let me introduce you to some people in Nova, and Nova might take over from there, or you might go ahead and help mentor them getting set up and everything else. So it's, even in the cohorts, it's supposed to be kind of free flow as to what the person needs. Yeah, for sure.  So we're just slightly connected to this. I'm also one of the Offstream Institute trainers, and this was exactly my problem back then when I wanted to learn how to contribute to Open Stack, and I ended up rather just taking over being an Offstream Institute trainer because I was also missing this tutorial. And actually, I also heard this as what Amy said, that we probably should somehow make the Offstream Institute more official, like in an online form or something, because I also kind of have the feeling that now the mentoring part is actually not that bad at all. So what Amy said again, that the first contact is gonna be made, and that person would just direct the newcomer to the developer who actually can help them. But right now, the problem is, and this is what I also heard during the weekend, that we are talking a lot about the mentoring program. We are so happy that we are doing this mentoring program. We do this and this, that we are so great that we are doing the mentoring program, but we do not really have any output of this. And this is inherently the problem because the mentoring program is actually something where you connect to or more people. So it doesn't necessarily have a written evidence that this happened. But on the other hand, I think we still should keep it on our to-do list that we gather a couple of project team leads and at least, so the problem is that we cannot really make a tutorial that this is how we contribute to OpenStack because it's like 30 something different microservices, a lot of differences between them. But at least as this kind of user group here, what we could do is, and this would be an output to create a template which could serve as a tutorial for all the projects where we can show the steps, what to do, how to jump on one of the microservice development. And then on top of that would be the actual like face-to-face or person-to-person mentoring. So to go on what Marcus said and what you said earlier, y'all are going to hate me in a minute because I'll put you guys on the hot seat now. I'm new to OpenStack, I've said that quite a few times here. Is there an inherent risk in what we allow for open source projects and every project kind of does their own thing and we allow that autonomy, I believe would be the correct word for it? But is there an inherent risk in that that we are losing people because we don't have that uniformity when it comes to the onboarding to the mentorship? I told you guys it's gonna be a hard question, but yeah. Sometimes it can just be that introduction to that particular project. Hi, this is my name is and they wanna work on Swift, so I introduce them to not my name. And I just get them talking. Well, not my name is actually a person. But that introduction can be all they need to get started. There are documentations that go over this how you set up your environment and if you wanna contribute to here and we do have everything from this is how you get to, even before that we have, this is how you get your logins and everything else. We have all the steps, but I think what happens is you log into a channel and you say, hi, I'd like to contribute and if no one is there or you just don't have that warm handoff, you get discouraged. It's the human component that you can't put in a wiki. Nicole and Daniel, you guys have had experience with mentorship programs outside of just OpenStack. I mean, can you tell us a little bit about what you've seen there that maybe worked or ideas? Not to put you on the spot there. Well, two things come to mind for me. And it goes back to what I said earlier in terms of organic mentoring versus structured programs. For me, the way that I made my way into the OpenStack community was through mentors that I had at Intel in their open source technology center where they encouraged me to get involved. And so I had that, I guess you could call hand-holding or less hand-holding and more encouragement to get involved. And then I could see that I was being invited to the table and what did I have as a strength to offer a value in terms of how to participate in the community? From a structured programs standpoint, one of the things that we've done with the speed mentoring workshops is to take, and I think I was talking to Lisa Marie earlier this week about how we've been able to move some of the really great things that are happening in the OpenStack community in terms of welcoming diverse folks into the community, how to take some of those programs like the speed mentoring workshops and move them into some of the other communities. And one of the proof points has been or one of the successes, one of the things that I'm proud of is that at the last open source summit in Edinburgh, they actually held two speed mentoring workshops because it was such a popular program there. So there's obviously a need for that. So I think that's one of the things that I've seen work really well is there are so many different ways to get involved, but it's what matches your time that you have to give. Your resources, I know resources, folks are bandwidth limited. So it's what matches how you feel comfortable in terms of paying it forward or giving back. And it often, yes, absolutely. I think one of the key factors, as you said, is the cultural thing. So first you need to have some cultural approach either in the community or in the company or wherever you are. Coming back to your comments, my personal experience is not in open source communities, but when I was doing the PhD and back there, I would say that one of the key factors is to have someone that is mentoring you, but it's giving opportunities to do something, either sharing, starting the chair session that teach you how this works, that help you with the problems or the failures that you have.  You try to do your best there. I think that idea of giving opportunities is quite interesting. So something just hit my ear. So I'm gonna be now a little bit aggressive, okay? Don't take it wrong. So once one of the big cities mayor in Eastern Europe said that, look, in our metro system, we do not need elevators for the disabled people because look at the statistics, disabled people are not using the metro system. Of course not because there weren't any elevators yet. Now you said that everyone was looking for the speed mentoring session. Of course they were looking for the speed mentoring session because they have no idea how to start because usually open source projects just don't have the proper documentation. And unfortunately OpenStack has this problem too. So I'm still a very big advocate of having better documentation, having the output, not just talking about stuff and setting up this, let's say, tutorial template. I firmly believe that that would help. Another story from this weekend again at the upstream institute, we met a very talented young guy. He was just a student and now he looks for a job. And what you said that you like this organic way of getting into the OpenStack project and I think it's a very nice story and we can romanticize it. But the problem is that not everyone has this opportunity, not, for example, this guy, what he does not have is a company around him but what he has is a ton of time. And if there were proper resources from which he as a self learner could start and actually send in a batch, the most probably next time he could come here without paying for the $600, $1200 ticket. And might find a job. So right now what he does, he just wishes that during the next couple of months while he's sitting at home without the job, will be able to learn alone how to contribute to OpenStack and get some patches. I actually had the same problem. My company wasn't necessarily supporting myself. So the problem is that since we are diverse, let's really try to think with those people who are in this troubled situation where they have the time, they have the energy, they most probably have the knowledge, they just don't have the familiarity with the processes and the source code and so on and so forth. So based on what Mark said and your experience, both in Ansible and Triple-O and just in the OpenStack community as a whole, where does mentoring sit with the onboarding process? It sounds like so far they've been completely separated. So do you guys, yeah really where does it sit compared to the onboarding process for projects and OpenStack as a whole? Anyway. I think it goes back to the individual project because at least my project, OpenStack Ansible, is very welcoming. If someone puts in a first patch, we'll help them get it through. Same with operators, you're having trouble getting up and running, we're gonna help you. So on that side, I'm really lucky because if you're gonna talk about an inclusive welcoming project, I'm on it. So I don't get to see sometimes the stories people say and I'm like, really? And I get logged in on that channel and I just watch it and there's no interaction or someone will ask a question. But again, you have time zones and other things that are factors. So if you do have a welcoming project, it's easier to get started and get involved and grow very quickly. If you have a company behind you, it's very easy to start and contribute and everything else, which is kind of similar to Nicole's experience. As far as what Mark is saying, I think if we're getting back to how do we get it out there that we exist? How do we get people involved and how can we get them moving along? Because if that student from this weekend who I guess I didn't meet because I was running around all over the place, you know, if we had that information for them to find the mentoring program, we could get them involved, we could get them contributing, they could get that job. So we have that missing link, which is actually the focus of the Birds of a Feather we had earlier in the week. And this panel is to get the feedback, to get this thing up and running so it can be what it should be. Yes. Well, you know, so Jill comes from a company and she's involved in the Opposite community and the project because that's part of her job. So it's a different aspect of, you know, I came in to work on this project and I'm involved because of this project. So she didn't have that initial step of what projects do I choose. And I'm like the first one to say, I go where my friends are. You know, I've got patches all over the place but it tends to be I hang out and stay where my friends are. So it looks like we are coming close to the end of time. I wanted to share these links or we probably went a little bit over time. I thought we were till four 10, sorry. So these are the links that we have available for you guys. I would really deeply appreciate it, even if you are not looking for a mentor or mentoring that you reach out to us and give us feedback. The big thing that I've gotten out of this panel discussion is that we need to work more closely with the OpenStack Foundation. There needs to be more of a tie-in between onboarding of projects and mentoring, whether that be that we go into the projects or that we just let them know that we are available. So if you have any other feedback, feel free to reach out to us on Twitter, email. All of us work closely together. So thank you guys very much for coming and thank you for sitting on this panel.


So, good afternoon, welcome everybody to this session. My name is Margaret Laughin and I'm the Business Development Director for Machine Learning with SAP. So, my day-to-day job is talking to our customers around our strategy, what it is that we're doing in machine learning, the solutions that we have coming to market, and of course the value that we're adding here to our customers. Now, because I know this is a technical conference and a technical audience, I'm going to be joined today by Tejin, if you want to stand up and say hi. And Tejin and I are going to tag team today. I'm going to cover the business side and talk around the business value that we have with machine learning and what we can do with this. And Tejin is going to talk about the technical part, so how we're leveraging Cloud Foundry in the applications that we're developing and all that good stuff. And we'll talk a bit about the API Business Hub and if you missed a session, two of our colleagues here, and shout out to them, did a session previous to this around the API Business Hub and how you can leverage that, that's going to be useful to know because our machine learning functional services are available through that. But as I get started and as we start to jump into this, hands up, who's familiar with what SAP is doing with machine learning currently? Okay, they're all the SAP hands. If you're not part of SAP, hands up if you're familiar with our strategy and with what we're doing. Okay, that gives me a wonderful opportunity to then get started on this slide. So yesterday if you were here and we had Bjorn Gurke, who's the CTO for SAP, he was giving the keynote. And what he was talking about during that, of course, is digital transformation and how this, how our customers are looking to us to help them enable, digitalize across their enterprises. So how do they connect all the different people, things and processes that says that they're in the side? And of course, what are the different components, parts of this? So one of the things we know when we're talking to our customers is that this is quite complex for them. And this is very challenging and hard to do. The other, that's on one side. On the other side as well, is if you have a resource budget or a strategy budget and you're looking at innovation, of course you want to make sure that you're doing the right type of innovation. Because innovation can be very costly to implement, and innovation can be costly as well in terms of stakeholder engagement and getting folks on board. So with SAP, we can bring this together across digital transformation. We brought out SAP Leonardo, which we launched back in May during Sapphire, which is our leading sales conference. And what this is, is a collection of technologies, as you can see here. And what we're doing is helping our customers across their value chain, either help on the business process side or help them innovate in many different areas. So the intelligent part here, of course, is the machine learning part. So I'll jump into that next. OK, so in terms of how we apply it as well to the enterprise, I mean, we're all familiar today with machine learning under consumer space. So I'm looking around. I know everybody's got their iPhones. They're looking at your Google Maps. You're getting up the time for traffic. We've got, you know, well, HomePod just announced there's Alexa. So there's many different types of tools that we can use that help us on the consumer side. But now on the enterprise side, we're seeing machine learning really enter this space. And of course, there's three things that are enabling all of that. And they do this on the consumer side too. But of course, we know that our infrastructure is better than it's ever been before. So leveraging GPUs and folks like NVIDIA who do great things in this area certainly help us take the power and the capacity from what we have in terms of the big data and what's available out there in the masses of data that we're getting either through our sensors with IoT or we're looking at our business networks or across different landscapes and how we bring this together. And of course, sorry, this is where I should learn to take a pause before we continue. But the third part here that we're looking at as well are deep learning algorithms. So we know that these are far more sophisticated than they've ever been before. And there's great companies out there doing super things in this space. The other part I would say and certainly for us, when us as SAP, when we're working with our customers, they want us to help them generate deeper insights into either their existing business models or help them on their future roadmaps as well. So certainly from an enterprise perspective, we definitely see that machine learning, we're in the right environment for machine learning to thrive and start to build and develop out from here. So with that, and when we talk about SAP and we think about us as a company, I mean, we're across 25 different industries. We've over 12 LOBs. So the breadth and depth of experience, I would say, that we bring into the market here and understanding our customer's business processes really sets us up in terms of understanding the value that we can add to them. So I talked earlier here about this in the sense of when we think about what we're doing in terms of our strategy and our roadmap and approach, we're looking at two things. One, we're looking at business processes and where we can automate like highly transactional activities and help our customers manage that differently. And of course, that leads to things like increased revenue or less we drive down the TCO and it changes up as well what people are doing in their work. That's on the one side. On the second hand, if you think about this, we can leverage Leonardo. So what we were talking about earlier in terms of the digital transformation view, and we can leverage Leonardo in order to help our customers productise, or develop or innovate in many different parts of their business, leveraging the information that we're getting across that value chain that was presented. So taking all of these different parts, how you can consume machine learning, and as I said, we'll start to get over into the more technical part of this shortly. But the foundation for it all from SAP is, of course, the SAP Cloud Platform. And there's many of my colleagues who are here in the room that can help answer some questions on that as well if we want to spend some time in it. But from the Cloud Platform, there's a few different things you can do. You can leverage. We have business services, so we are enabling part of our product portfolio with intelligent applications, and we're making them more intelligent as such. So there are products that we are bringing to market that will have intelligent capabilities, so machine learning within them. So that's one thing there. The second part is functional services. So this is where you could leverage image, detection, text, tabular, things like this in order to develop applications that you want. So that's where you see the top part as well. So you can build as a partner or customer. You can build your own machine learning applications, leveraging our functional services via the API business sub that you guys talked about earlier as well. So in essence, that's some part of how you can consume machine learning with SAP. We have the Lifecycle Management Hub here. So what we're bringing to market in this slide as well is trained and developed machine learning models and algorithms that you can also leverage with your business, depending on what it is that you want to do. So for those of you who are familiar with machine learning, or you're implementing this in your business, or this is an area where you want to develop, of course, with machine learning, it starts off the first question you ask is, what is it that you want to do? And when you've established what it is that you want to do, you can work backwards then in terms of understanding the best way to build that out and to drive your business. So here's another picture that gives a sense of the breadth and scope that SAP is developing in this area and what we're bringing to market.  And it can do many different things for you as well. So that's a sense of some part of where we're going. And then here in this slide as well, we have a number of solutions that we've brought to market that work in both the back office and, of course, the front office as well. So we've many different customer stories. And typically, if this was a longer session for me, I'd talk a lot about our POCs and what we've been learning with our customers as we've brought and developed and brought this to market. But I know that my time is a bit short, and I have to hand it over to Tagen. But before I do that, are there any questions right now in the sense from the business side or the approach that you may have in terms of thinking about machine learning for your organization? Yeah, so think about Leonardo as a portfolio of technologies. Which, just go back one slide. Okay, so Leonardo, it's a portfolio of technologies, and that's that you can leverage them in different ways. Or, you know, one perfect example, I had a customer talking just recently where they have like 50,000 sensors out in the field. It's an oil and gas company. They want to know how they can apply machine learning in order to enable different insights from that information that they're gathering. How familiar are people with machine learning the topic itself and the technology? Okay, so a variety of hands. And I guess it's certainly a trending area so we know people are getting far more interested in it. A few other things I'd say about machine learning then as well as there's no one size fits all. There's many different types of machine learning and we're leveraging different technologies in order to build out the capabilities that you want to do. So, there's a different slice and dice involved with all of those as well. So I guess, you know, this is some of what we've been learning as well as we've been building out these solutions and bringing them to market. Sales and service. So one of the use cases that we were looking on here was all around the sales cycle in terms of getting ahead of qualifying your leads and the next level of sales, potential sales opportunities that you would have but it drives it a bit deeper into understanding and connecting through the omnichannel engagement and digital footprint of the customers in terms of bringing more intelligence to understanding the direction that they're going in and potential opportunities that they're looking at so you can build out specific campaigns to target that or have your sales team work with them differently. I'd have to look back at some of what we have already because I know we did it a short while ago but I can get that information. So I will move it over to Teijin who I know is gonna talk more around the technology as well but and how they're developing this within our innovation center network groups. So Teijin. Hi. Yeah, I'm Teijin and I'm working at SAP as a data scientist. So today, before going into my presentation I would like to ask how many of you have heard of deep learning? Nice, yeah. So I know like deep learning is the hottest topic in even in machine learning area and a lot of research institutes are doing research on deep learning. So let's look into how we can use deep learning in an application. So there are three major areas where we can use machine learning, a deep learning especially. So for, first of all, it's a speech recognition and the second is natural language processing and the third is computer vision. So for example, for each area is like I believe you guys are familiar with Siri. So Siri is using a deep learning technique for speech recognition and Echo is also using, Amazon's Echo also use a deep learning technique and Google translator or a lot of chatbots on the online are all using natural language processing using deep learning. And also a self-driving car or like face recognition, they're all using deep learning for computer vision technology. So let's look into their data format and their required computational power. So for speech recognition, the input data format is a voice and the voice can be represented in one dimensional array. So compared to other data set, the data size is pretty small. Like and when you look into their benchmark data set it's like 60 MB megabytes. And for natural language processing, the text data itself is pretty small. However, when you feed those data into deep learning model, you should change each word into factor representation. So for example here, like wait for the video. Each word will be like 200 or 300 length array. Like floating like 32 bit or 32 bit floating array. So one sentence will be two dimensional array. And when we look into like those benchmark data set it's like one GB. So which is like 10 time or 100 time bigger than voice data. And for computer vision part, the data set is much, much huge. So for computer vision, the input data is image or video. So for image, usually it's three dimensional array. And the size of array itself is much bigger than this sentence or text array. So one picture is usually like 500 kilobytes and the benchmark data set is like 200 GB. So for when we look into the computational requirement, there are a lot of CPU recognition companies which using just using CPU for CPU recognition because the data set is small. So there's a, we don't necessarily use GPU. For natural language processing, it's highly recommended to use GPU because based on my experience, when comparing the performance of current GPU with eight core CPU, GPU is like 10 times faster than eight core CPU. And for computer vision, we definitely need to use GPU because usually current GPU is 100 times faster than CPU. So if you provide like real-time application, even though we use GPU, if we use very, very like complicated architecture, like neural architecture model, then it takes like one seconds or hundreds of milliseconds. If you use CPU, like it takes more than one minute to process just one request. And like considering there are like tens of, like hundreds of requests will come in in one second. So we definitely need to use multiple GPU to create a good application. So inside SAP, we developed a computer vision application. So as I said before, we definitely need to use GPU for computer vision application. I know that currently Cloud Foundry does not provide GPU device. However, we can easily integrate external GPU with Cloud Foundry application. So inside SAP, we have SAP motion learning platform where as a data scientist, I can train my model and also deploy my model and make it as a service. So after making this motion learning service, we can integrate with application in Cloud Foundry. For other cloud platform, the reason that I mentioned is I also try like some commercial application, cloud platform which provides GPU such as AWS or Google Cloud. They all very well with Cloud Foundry application. So and for other parts, I believe you guys already know, we can leverage a lot of services which are provided at Cloud Foundry. So let's look into a little more detail on our application. So for machine learning, especially deep learning application, I think scalability is very important. So we adopted like queuing system and worker application in Cloud Foundry to handle machine learning jobs in parallel. So these worker application is very easy to scale up. Like we can just scale up 200 or 200 in very short moment. So all the input data will be accumulated in queue and then workers gonna capture one jobs one by one and then put those requested to external GPU machine through REST API or RPC. And another important part here is we should have security module because if there's no security module, then like other application can easily access our like deep learning model without any authentication. So there should be whenever workers send job to external GPU, they should use security module. And currently we are also looking for like other architecture as well. So if you guys after session have any advice, then you're welcome to accept that. Yeah, this is pretty much for my side. And I wanna, I think we can. So we can move it into Q&A now. I guess one of the things that Tejin and I wanted to say here as well was that, I mean, this is just like a little like baby toe into the water here on machine learning. We could do an entire track on this today in terms of looking at the challenges and opportunities across the business in terms of where you can apply machine learning, but also then looking at how you can innovate and how you leverage different types of functional services or computer vision in order to help you do different things as per like retail use cases or what have you. So as I said, it's just a kind of a baby toe into the water. So are there any specific questions that folks have for us or are areas that you want to explore with just the time that we have left here? Okay, I see a hand over there. Yeah, so, and that actually came up in the previous presentation as well in terms of how you can do that. So we have brought open, sorry, translation services to open SAP courses. So today you can access an open SAP course and if English is not your primary language or you want to have it in another one, it can translate automatically for you. So we've developed that through some of our product itself, but it's also available as I understand in the API business hub. So it's available there as a service if you want to leverage it yourself for your business. Yeah, in the technical perspective, like Google, like all the, like state of the art translator are using a team learning models, yeah. There are no more questions. Oh, there's another one here. Normally we always have hands up. There's so many things to talk about for machine learning. It's such a great topic. Yeah, it's a big topic. It's a big topic, yeah. So, yes, so, yeah, we have, we call that as a like delta training. So whenever like new customer or like new, like whenever we have to update our model, we can leverage existing model and we can train, retrain our models in very short time, like just changing some part of network, yeah. So, and I think like, yeah, we provide as a like machine learning platform. So, yeah. Is there any other questions or is there anybody working on a machine learning project now that they want to share or kind of say some of their experience through that? I think we've got a shy group. Are not enough coffee, right? Well, we're pretty good here in terms of, as I said, this was a very brief overview. I mean, if there's any things specific we want, you want to talk about afterwards, we're like, Tej and I are here. And if you have any further questions or want to explore the topic a bit further, but as I said, this is just like a baby tiptoe into the water. There's so much to the topic. There's so much in terms of what customers are looking for. And one of the other items that we, you know, areas to think here and why it's important at a tech conference to be talking about the business value to machine learning is that if there isn't a need from the customer, well then there's no need on the development side. So that's one of the things that we're very mindful of in terms of what our customers are telling us in terms of that need. So they certainly see machine learning as really supporting and helping them automate highly transactional activities on the business side, but then also how do they leverage machine learning functional services to do many things on the innovation and the development side as well with either product or they're extending their innovation strategy. Yeah, so I mean, that's a good question in the sense of and I'll say a bit of where we came from. So both Tejan and I are part of what we call the Innovation Center Network at SAP. And we have a chief innovation officer, a guy called Jürgen Mueller.  And our role are certainly what he, our organization's mandate is to pioneer new technologies and to see where we can build them into either growth models or pioneer new business paths forward as such. So certainly from the work that we've done with machine learning and the way we've brought use cases to market, so we've brought solutions to market. We've tried and tested these with our customers. So we've done that, but we're also implementing across our entire product portfolio. So if you're an SAP customer or you're interested in SAP or you want to engage more in the enterprise side, what you'll start to see from our product portfolio is that there'll be a huge number of offerings where we embed intelligence into either existing applications or it'll be on the roadmap for future applications. Certainly I can say, because we're on record to say this, but we're betting big with machine learning. There's no doubt about it. I mean, at every part across the, you can make your enterprise intelligent. There's no doubt about that at every part. And that's why we showed the value chain slide further along because you can see how machine learning can impact every part of your business. And it can help it just do very different things. And with the Leonardo umbrella as well, where we have that collection of technologies coming together, we're also engaging with, you know, what we have on the IoT side or big data or analytics or what have you. So certainly you're going to see a lot more from us and we're working with our customers right now on some really exciting use cases where they're helping to offer better value to their customers. So things like the retail shopping experience and leveraging things like trend analytics to, we had a use case recently out of China where they've implemented a whole new shopping experience whereby the consumer designs and models their own shoe and a week later they can come and collect it because the supply chain is also being impacted to be much faster efficient at no additional costs to the vendors there in that case as well. So that's kind of an easy example to run to but there's plenty of those that we have that we're working with customers on. I think we're all right. Oh, it worked. I can talk for a long time on this topic. Okay, with that, we'll wrap up. If you have any questions, definitely let us know and we'd be more than happy to talk. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you.


What do I call you? President, Prime Minister, Foreign Minister, I've known you in every incarnation. My life is confused. But I know one thing you're thinking isn't. So it's a treat to be here with you at this critical time. I've been on a lot of panels and discussions this week about the Middle East, what to do about ISIS, how to advance the Israeli-Palestinian peace process, what to do about the post-Arab spring. I know you have thoughts about all of them. Cut through, if you can, for us the noise, the sense of fragmentation. And share with us how you think we begin to move this region forward again, because right now it feels stuck. Well, I think to fight terror, which is the spoiler of the region, we have to make three major efforts. One is to bring in the people, particularly the young people, 60% of the Arabs in the Middle East are below the age of 25, and they are open. To bring them in in the age of science, they cannot escape poverty without science. The second point is to call the task of religion the real name, because the terrorists are acting in name of religion. They say, cut the heads and save the world. Time has come that the religious people will answer.  Now, having a new spokesman for religion, the Pope, that affected the humanity, but all other religions, and now we are organizing an interfaith to bring back the values, not only the modernity. There cannot be technologically without having some spiritual basis and advisors. And the second is, the real force today is no longer governments, but global companies. Global companies don't have power, they have strengths. They don't have rifles, they don't have armies, and you cannot anyway gain science by arms or by war. They are based on good will, on good products, on trustworthy, on good names, and they have to convince that they are bringing back, paying back to the people, what the people are giving them. And their good name is very, very important, and I think they have another thing. They change the nature of democracy in three ways. Number one, democracy nowadays is not just the right to be equal, but the equal right to be different. They have legalized the differences in the world. Secondly, democracy is not just free expression, but self-expression. Young girl or young boy, free expression doesn't mean to them they have private form, but self-expression, to express their inclinations, their hopes, and by the way it's very hard to be a young girl or young boy nowadays. This is the second thing, and the third thing is to serve the communities. I mean the relations through governments have their limitations because they are full of history, of hatred, of suspicion, of fear. And for the reason many of the leaders are cowards, what we have is to bring the people in the picture, in making peace by dialogue. And the new age also has the advantage that you don't care reflex, so you don't create resentment, and they must understand if they won't participate in the fight against terror, terror will come to them. But they don't have to take rifles and go and fight their wars. They can help countries to overcome poverty, which is one of the reasons for terror. So I want to talk specifically about something that you know as well as anybody, and it's the Israeli-Palestinian peace process, which right now really seems dead in the water. Nothing happening. I know we're waiting for an Israeli election. But at the same time, even before that, it was dead. What do you think could break the deadlock now? Is there a new American role? What should Israel be doing? What should the Palestinians be doing? What should the Arab world be doing? How do we get out of this? The election in Israel will be over at some point. What can we do? Well, there are pens who will win the elections. There are actually two camps. One is for a two-state solution. And the other is for managing the crisis. I don't know, can you manage a crisis? If you can manage, you wouldn't have a crisis. And on the other hand... You should have tweeted that to somebody. And then, you know, the two-state solution is a condition to the existence of Israel. In democracy, you are a Jewish state only if you have a Jewish majority that you can count. No declaration can make you a Jewish majority if you are not a Jewish majority. That's well said. And the same is for the Palestinians. In fact, it was agreed, but in reality, the energy invested is very slow for different reasons. So we shall see the results of the elections, which camp will win, which idea will win. But there is no country anymore in the world that can do anything alone. Whether we like it or not. The globalty, which is the most important economic force, doesn't have a government. They will not order, say, to make a boycott. Neither can they stop it. So everybody is involved. And if you have relations, you must have relations with all people.  And also, you endanger your security. Because if there is a million, 100 million Muslims, they have arms, they have armies, they have friends, one of them have a nuclear bomb. But they have a reason to fight terror like we. Terror is destroying the Arab countries more than anybody else. If I were an Arab and I would ask myself, where is the greatest danger? Israel or terror, I would answer terror. Because terror is destroying country after country. The world of empire is over. And I think the new world of companies is following the American philosophy, namely to be great, give, not just take. And then I think the global companies can really help the Arab world to enter the new age. We shall participate. We don't come in with flex so we don't raise resentment. Globality doesn't care flex. I mean, there's a big debate in America and in Israel over how to think about the issue of Iran. One school says keep sanctioning them until they break and say uncle and somehow abandon their nuclear program. Another school says strike a deal with them. It won't be a perfect deal. You won't get everything you want. But you'll begin a different process there of Iran engaging with the world at a depth and scope that we haven't seen before. And that will drive long-term change. How do you look at this issue? There's a debate within Israel. It's obviously a debate within America. I think we have to bring an account not just to one consideration, but several. I'm not sure that the young generation in Tehran is really at the same mind as all the leaders. And we can see a revolt of women and youngsters. They won't stop. I think the Middle East will be changed finally by young people and women because they are victims of the present state. So we have to encourage them and work with them. And they will play a role. I don't know. Globality doesn't that we watch. We are not in Switzerland. There are things that are running fast and things that are late, but they are moving, all of them. So I mean I wouldn't close my eyes to the social development. Secondly, Iran is facing a very demanding economic problems. Not only because of sanctions, but also very much because they are short of water. They are going to have a real problem in a very short while. And the price of oil goes down. So it's very hard to be great and be poor at the same time. And also sanctions have another effect, which is very important. You know, I asked the South African people, how come they gave up power? The clerk told me, look, when the sanctions were declared, we checked our position economically and we found out no problem. We can manage the sanctions. But what we didn't bring in account is the fact that South Africa became separated from the rest of the world. Nobody want to come to South Africa. Nobody want to go because football or whatever it is, they were totally alone. And it says it makes life impossible. That can happen to Iran as well. And clearly it must be, we have to keep the international agreement too. And I think right now Iran is testing what is the maximum and America is testing what is the minimum. And we shall see. I think nobody is safe against changes or surprises. So they fix dates. Let's wait the date. For us it is a world problem, not just Israeli problem. And we have to be with the world, with the responsible world. Because if we shall do alone, we shall remain alone. I want to ask you a personal question. How old are you?  I'm 61 and I'm struggling to keep up with you. I'm taking notes as fast as I can. What is your secret? Do you eat a lot of yogurt? Do you play a lot of tennis? What is your secret? I'll tell you. Count the number of achievements in your life. Then count the number of the dreams in your brain. If the number of the dreams exceeds the number of achievements, you are young. Otherwise you are old. Fantastic. But a little yogurt?  A little yogurt? It's not yogurt, it's self-discipline. Interesting. On everything. You must be self-disciplined.  And do it. So I'm self-disciplined on all accounts. My weight, my itinerary. And I'm all the time engaged. I recommend not to take vacations. Vacations is the most boring thing.  My God, what are you doing there? The most interesting thing in life is to work. For that reason I said that self-expression is more important than free expression. And I'm busy all the time. I don't have a moment. And by the way, I don't believe in Freud. Freud tried to make each of us a complex. I don't feel myself as a complex. I feel myself as a human being. Who is quite happy, optimistic, engaging and serving other people as well. And even with Kissinger, whom I admire, I don't think the problem is only power. The problem is really as a spiritual side. And the greatest thing in life, the wisest thing in life, if you want really to have a good life, be honest, man. Nothing is wiser than be honest. Better to be honest than to be rich, believe me. Well, thank you. As I was walking here and thinking about what to talk to you about, I think of you as a young man, 29 years old, working with David Ben-Gurion, negotiating the nuclear deal with France. And France is now obviously in the news in a very tragic way in recent weeks. And the French Jewish community as well. And I've read calls from Israel to say French Jews should all move to Israel. Would Israel really be safer in a world where all French Jews moved to Israel? How do you think of that issue? The tension between Israel as a homeland for all the Jewish people, a place that would gather them, provide them both safety and opportunity. But also the importance of Jews as part of the global diaspora. That's also part of Israel's security as well. How do you think about that issue? I think a Jew must try to live freely in a free world. The reason why we called for the Jewish people to go to Israel is not just because there's anti-Semitism. But for 2,000 years, half of our existence, we are strangers in the town. And we are persecuted. It's a wonder for 2,000 years without a land under our legs. Really the Torah kept us more than the land in a way. But we paid heavily for it. So we decided the time has come that we should not be strangers, but we should have a home like anybody else. So it's a renaissance. It's not a protest. And Herzl was born before the Shoah. There was then a debate between the some Jewish people who became communists or socialists and others who became Zionists. The others say communists. Say the world is wrong. You have classes, you have rich and you have poor. Let's change the world. The others, the Zionists, it's impossible to change the world. The communism made, you know, best botanics, not to believe in the Lord, not to believe in the classes, everything. We have to change ourselves. So it's not a protest against anybody. It's a correction for our own future. And that's it. So we don't push, we don't accuse. And every Jew can live wherever he wants. Antisemitism is not a Jewish sickness. It's a non-Jewish sickness. And every Sikh let him go to the doctor. Because he makes the whole nation sick. So that's it. And I won't condemn a Jewish person that lives in France or lives in America. It's his right. But they say, let's keep our house that has both land and gospel. The speciality of the Jewish life in my judgment is that the Jews under Moses was very much to the left, as you know, said every person has the right to be equal. And Moses was the first to protest the world. Since then the Jews were never satisfied with the world. They tried to change it. And you cannot be a Jew unless you are unhappy. Or dissatisfied at least. You try, because you try to improve the world, to have what you call tikkun olam. And that's of all attractions in the world. Health, strength, wealth, whatever you want. The real attraction, the major attraction of the Jewish people is the moral call. All things disappear, disappoint. Morality lasts forever. So there aren't many people I can ask this question. What would the David Ben-Gurion whom you knew as a young man and worked for, what would he be advising the Israeli people and government to do today? Clearly he would go... I mean he went for the two states. Ben-Gurion was a very lonely person. Lonely. Lonely. Because the map that the United Nations has proposed to us was a terrible map. It didn't leave us with much land or water, nothing. And people say, how can you accept such a land? And Ben-Gurion said, yes, we accept. It was urgent because it was immediately after the show, after the war. Ben-Gurion went to visit the camps. By the way, he was accompanied by General Eisner whom he admired. Eisner told him, stop Ben-Gurion, have a good look at the people that remain alive. People will forget it and the world is close to them. So that would make him urgent. The man, Ben-Gurion, was totally innocent. He could be sharp, he could be polemic, but basically, what he said, he believed in. And he said to work with Ben-Gurion, you have to have at least knowledge about two important principles. Never lie. Never stop daring. Never lie, never stop daring. Yes. Because you know, when we have our dream about Israel, we thought we have a great dream. The implementation exceeded the dream. Since then, I'm afraid about small dreams. I mean, we should have dreamed greater and larger. And now we have to dream great and large like the world is dreaming. Science doesn't have limitations. And by the way, Ben-Gurion used to say, all experts are experts for things that did happen. Some have an expert for things that may happen. And then I learned from the economy. So he was a great economist like myself. Both of us didn't have that idea. What did I learn from him? I would come to him. He was the minister of defense. I was the director general, later on, his deputy. I would come into him and say, Ben-Gurion, let's do this and that. He said, how much will it cost, the great economist? I told him a million dollars. He says, a million dollars. Where are we going to take the money from? Okay. Three weeks passed, I came to him and said, Ben-Gurion, let's do this and that. He asked me, how much will it cost? I said, 50 million dollars. Oh, he says, that's nothing. If it was for something, it is cheap. If it was against something, it's expensive. That was the economy. A lot of wisdom in that. When we look at the map of the Middle East, 50 years from now, let's forget, set aside for a second, what Israel will look like on that map. Do you think that there'll be a place called Iraq on that map and a place called Syria on that map? Not the Iraq that used to be. Not the Iraq which it is, but a different Iraq. I think all countries in the future, instead of counting how many square miles we have, they'll start to count how many scientists you have per one square mile. Because land in itself doesn't produce. And we don't have land. Our greatness comes from technology and science. From the human being. And now, you know, Bob Hope, many Americans remember his humor. He says he doesn't understand why the British do drive on the left hand. So he bought a car, he went to London, and he tried to drive on the right hand. He says, I immediately understood the British. When the world is driving in one way, you cannot drive in the other way. And that what will happen, you know, there are 400 million Arabs in the Middle East. As I said, 60% are below the age of 25. I'm not sure that the whole generation will change. And if they would change one thing, they would immediately change their economic situation. And that is the discrimination of women. The World Bank published now a survey that says if Egypt would give free rights to women, the GNP of Egypt would grow by 34.6%. It's more than all the foreign aid. But President Obama every time asked me, who is against democracy in the Middle East? I told him the husbands in the name of Allah. But the young generation, the students, they don't discriminate. A girl student by a man's student. And that's one of the reasons, I believe, that why in Tunisia there were a lot of students, or cure the change. So I believe technology, age, and the moral approach will change everybody. We are still living in the old age. We have an old mind in a new age. When we come to the end of the session, I want to conclude by asking you one last question. No one has lived the history of Israel more than you have. What doesn't the world understand about Israel? What would surprise the world most? You could sit the world down and say, look, I've seen this country from beginning to end. Here's what you don't understand. Well, clearly there are remnants from old anti-Semitism. From the age, remember that for 2,000 years the Jews were hated because they were Jews. Christianity is not what is today. And the Islam too. There was a very short period. And the other thing, I believe that people got the idea the Jews are either smart, or the Jews are either rich, they are privileged, they misuse things, which is nonsense. And we didn't understand the others too. We thought the others will accept our contribution. They didn't understand, they looked upon it as an enemy. And the problem is the small size of the land and the great holiness of it. The Temple Mount, the three largest religions, serves as a holy place. The size of the Temple Mount is two square kilometers. Two square kilometers. Billions of people are concerned about every stone. And it's clear, I mean, the first to make Jerusalem the center, the holy center, was David, the Jewish people. Only later came in the Christians, which Christianity was created by a Jewish guy. And then came the Muslims. All of them the same Lord, but with a different nationality, or a different claim, or a different explanation of it. So the small place. And also Israel has nothing, you know, when we came. We didn't have land, it's a tiny piece of land. We didn't have water. We have two lakes. One dead, the other is dying. We have a river, which is very famous, the Troll River, but that's the water. There's only fame without water. We had swamps in the northeast Mosquitoes. Desert in the south with stones. With nobody you could have a dialogue. We didn't have oil, we didn't have gold, nothing, you know. And people didn't understand what's happening. I mean, our greatness is coming from nothing. They said in the Middle East there were two sorts of countries. The oily countries and the holy country. We were a holy country, I show you. We have nothing of the oily part of it. And Israel is really an example where people have reached the land, not the land and reached the people. In spirit, in sacrifice, in devotion, in having a commitment to values. Ushiman, thank you very much. You know, there's a saying in Hebrew, ad mea vesrim. You're so stingy. You should live to 120, but you're one of the few people I say ad mea vesrim and I think, and I hope I'll be there to conduct the interview. So thank you very much. Thank you very much.