So today I will be talking about Scalibur's printed architecture. I put the word print time to make it fancy. It's mostly about CSS and it has no... I mean, I won't be covering JavaScript and stuff. Hi, as Xavier has already introduced, my name is Praveen. I'm also known as Asraward Twitter. I generally chat about bad coding practices and make one of these UX words. And I work in a company called Punissa as a research upper. Okay, how many of you here write CSS as part of their job? Okay, almost. So how do you find it when you've been a big, large team and you've given a project which has been written by someone else and you get those CSS files and it's housing key general. What do you do when you have a project? Generally you look at the code, feel happy and you say how such an awesome developer he is or generally you start up with the... So generally it happens that in large teams some of the developers might not write the CSS properly. Okay, they might be using the send and selectors which make our lives very difficult. This happens in most of the time. Whenever I see a code I just... First thing is I first start a developer then I defect to the code then I start up. We all follow web standards, right?  Pardon? We write... Okay, but mostly we try to stick to the web standards like writing a standard semantic HTML then, you know, writing properly, separating everything like CSS, separating a separate file all JavaScripts in a separate file is HTML. Okay, so what happens in the league? Whenever you start off the project we feel okay, first project I'll start off very nicely. I'll, you know, it would be a good example of well-meaning CSS and stuff. But slowly as the project grows, the CSS grows to the side and it becomes unmanageable. The CSS best practices, so-called best practices, right? Not to use more classes. They call it class against. And what all other CSS best practices are there? Anyone? What's your favorite CSS best practice? Okay, you don't defect to CSS. So that's the basic thing? No, I can't talk about that. But who's on how to write class names? Don't mean classes answer the nation's questions. Okay, so generally we are asked to write classes that properly, you know, defines the content, okay? That's considered to be a best practice. But what happens is that is not reusable. Suppose you have news content.  And you have the same style to be applied to some other block. Then you cannot use that news no more. Because that is not for that news content. So these CSS best practices, so-called best practices, they encourage what the programming world will call out that. Yeah, see, suppose you have a news content. You are using news class. In future, you have another block, which has updates. Which is not related to news. But using the news class makes it a little less meaningful. Well, it's a styling solution. Yeah, so using that name and talking about that name, news, is no longer scalable. I mean, it sounds very funny. We have updates and it's called news. We don't have any consensus. See, CSS is often contextually ungradable. So what I mean with this is, you have descent and selectors, right? So you might have seen most of the cases. You have a sidebar. Then you have a specific module, different modules. Then for each header in a module, you say .module.http. Then you write the rules. So what happens is, all those rules, they are specific to that sidebar. If you have to move that content anywhere else, then that won't apply. So it's the problem. Then CSS engages overrides. You might be knowing this. Yeah, any question? The worst part is it increases that coupling. Let's take this as an example. Okay, we have a sidebar. Inside the sidebar, we have a specific module, which I wrote modular. Then I have a heading and a content. And if you use this selector as sidebar.module.http. What's happening is, we are making an assumption that every module would be of the same form. It will always be extreme. And suppose, in other contexts, semantically, it makes sense to use X2. Then this selector no longer is useful. This is not scalable. So in order to make code more scalable and easy to organize, there is a methodology for object-oriented CSS. This was developed by Nicole Sullivan. And when I say object-oriented, there's nothing to do with object-oriented programming as such. Here, we treat every HTML component as an object. The main principles are separate structure and content. And separate container and content. Structure and screen and container and content. Okay. I think this is how we generally use this thing. We have a class for the structure of that object. So that can be used. And if you have any changes that needs to be made to that object, we can extend it using a class, which I call it here, a skin class. Similarly, face and extend. These things come from object-oriented programming paradigms. You can call it. Okay, now let's come back to our biggest example. We had a sidebar, same thing. But instead of using an X3 selector and preselector, we have made it generalized. We are using a class called HD for the header and BD for the body. So that if suppose we, in some other context, instead of X3, X2 makes more sense, we can say that we use X2, use the same class. They're still usable. If you see any problem in this selector here, .mod HD, .mod BD. They might be problem. Unnecessary class. Unnecessary class. At first it seems it's unnecessary. But you know, this makes it more... See, what is more flexible? Suppose we have another X2 or X4 in the same place, then instead of the previous thing, we would have written .mod HD, .mod HD, and so on and so forth. So every time you add an HD by structure, you again change your CSS. That's not a good thing, right? I mean, it's tightly coupled. Yeah. In this case, In this case, In this case, In this case, Yeah, that's what we learn when we learn about CSS, right? We will keep the HTML constant and they keep on changing the CSS to redesign the site. But in the real world, it never happens. In the real world, you always change the HTML. These days, who writes HTML by hand? All of them, all of it is generated towards some content management system. So it makes more sense to have classes like this. You see the selector, it's not possible on the right side. Yeah. First, take all the Bs, then... All the Bs, you will look then to see if it's a correct kind of a problem. So this way, my style is not a problem. These are more... It is a performance also. Yeah. And yeah, as he said, ideally, in ideal world, we'll have the HTML constant changing the CSS. But I don't think... Show me one example other than CSS in garden, where we keep the HTML constant and keep working on CSS. I don't think so. Never thought of it. It's a pretty famous site by Dave Sheeran. Yeah. But there are very... Yeah, very specific examples, where the structure is very simple, like you have a header, paragraph, any age, and if the structure is not so complex, then it's fine. We'll be changing CSS most of the time. But if you look at most complicated websites, like, say for example, Amazon, Flipkart, we have so many modules. So if you have to change one particular thing, if you use the traditional way, like just keeping the HTML constant and changing the CSS, you might be affecting some other stuff also. This makes sense. Pardon? Yeah. And also, let's say we are not using these classes and we are just using element selectors. Let's say we have .mod h2. Suppose we have some other model here, .mod h4, and it has a different background, some different styling. Then you keep on adding... I mean, what we are doing is by using element selector, we are making attention that the structure is always going to be the same. So it would be a mod. There would be by 3 after that. It might not be nested inside somewhere. But in this case, it doesn't depend on this. This h2 can be nested inside some division or somewhere. But still, this thing applies to that. Yeah, but I still see some problem here. Can you figure out what the problem is? Yeah, if you have multiple paragraphs, you will have the same class. Yeah. When I have elements, like I said, .mod h2. Yeah, but suppose you have another mod, and there you need a different styling for the feedback. Then what would you do? In that case, again, you have to add a class. Then you have one more line of CSS. And suppose there comes another mod because of client requirement. Again, you have one more CSS. So every time you change the CSS, that's not proper separation. When we separate HTML and CSS, it should be like that. Just one of them should be constant. That was what we learned when we started off with CSS, right? That we won't be changing HTML, we will be changing only CSS. But that doesn't happen in real life. Every time the HTML changes. So every time the HTML changes, we need to come back, rework on the CSS. Again, look at it. Now, yeah, I was talking about some problem with this election. This election? No, I mean, if you want, you can use .mod and I mean, right now I don't have any background or anything, any styling for this thing. So I have interest. Yeah, one problem, what I see is this is specific to only this module. Okay. This H2, I mean, every element with HD class and BD class, it makes sense only if it is inside a mod. Again, I'm making an assumption that every element should always be wrapped inside a division or a container with mod class. So again, we are putting some constraint which is, we cannot freely move this stuff somewhere else. In the object oriented CSS methodology, we have this thing called double standard heading hierarchy which sounds very fancy, but it's something very simple to always do. Basically what it means, whenever you define a heading, because this one we use only for heading that is H1 to H6, whenever you define a style like a room for heading, you define the same thing I mean, same room for a class. Let's see how it would look. H1, .H1 and similarly H6, .H6. So this makes it more reusable and flexible. Suppose in this case we don't rely on the semantics of this S2, S3 and stuff, right? Suppose in some place I want H1 to have the styles that are written over here but in some other page, as per the semantics in the document, the H1 comes in the top but it needs to look somewhere like H3. It has a similar look of H3 then directly we can use .H3 and still the code would be semantic because we are using an H1 tag and since, you know, classes have more specificity if you use an .H3 that would overwrite, that would take more procedures. And whenever you design a website I don't think you would need more than 6 headings. If you count Hmax will be 6. If there are any procedures, you can just add one more class and be done with it. Good question. What happens if you add in H1? We add in H1. So if people talk to you just keep on H1 and say we are heading to H1 which is the private sign. The reason I am using it is to have a default sign for H1. So if I have an H1 and if I don't assign any class to it, by default it should get some sign in. So these are the default and you are giving the same styling to other classes. So here, these are not limited only to headings. You can, if you want the same look for a paragraph you can do the same class. So just by defining 6 things you can have any number of combinations going on. Then one more interesting thing that comes from auditory CSS methodologies, media object. Media object is a very simple thing. It has an image on the left with some descriptive content on the right. If you look at Facebook look at any comment, any update, your friends, avatar box yeah for example anything, you have an image on the left and some content to the right. So by looking at that thing what you can assume there is always an image which floats, image floats. There is some content to the right. This is always constant. So this is something you can extract a separate object and you can keep it to the image. How do you do this? Okay, this is what I was talking about. This is how a media block would look. Most of the time it has some media on the left, content on the right. It may happen that you have media on the right and content on the left though. This is something I took it from Flipkart. If you look at Flipkart on the right most sidebar, you have these two blocks. So what I did I copied the same whatever Flipkart wrote I did a change in it here and this is some so if you look at the layout and look at this UI you have two blocks which almost share same styling they have something on the left some numbers on the left some content on the right there is a read module but if you look at the marker by the way I am not trying to find faults with Flipkart this is just an example we have FKS module this is fine right? Yeah, fine. So we have a class FKS module I don't know why maybe because of the way the HMK engine they get they have a box replacement then body then the unit this is a really good thing they have extracted all floating objects as units so whenever you assign a class unit that gets loaded and the last unit generally we clear the float and most of the rest then we have a text text2 again there is now if you look at the second thing second box it almost looks similar but look at the fourth here we have directly two blocks cell1 cell2 and for cell1 again they have text1 text2 there is this header link and if you look at CSS this one is for the first module FK box replacement dot text1 FK box replacement dot text2 so what's happening here is again we are making assumption that anything that has this type always is always wrapped inside the specific class the container with the specific class so once we take it and move it to some other division or some other container and that means lost I mean if you just take the HTML module somewhere else look suppose use the same HTML put it here but we are not recruiting anything out of the CSS actually it's as good as styling as good as inline styling almost so what we can do is just again go back to the exact look at this just observe what all other stuff is being repeated okay so I kind of modified this this might not be ideal one but just for the sake of this demo I have done this I am using FKS module just because we have used it inside I have abstracted this entire thing as a media object so I call any component that has the media floating to the left and some content to the right so this is the media object inside I have a media okay this might be P, that might be P, X2 whatever doesn't matter because I am using the class name here so it's very extensive if I use whatever element you want then we have media body media body is something that comes to the right then we have a header I have again specified X2 so that I can apply size to that X2 class then we have this more length and if you look at the second code second module again the same thing I have a media object I have a media media body X2 but the class is X3 because semantically it should be an X2 it's a little bit different font size is a little bit smaller so I have used an X3 there but more or less this is the original version using the abstraction if you look at the CSS file this is the original version which has around 131 lines the abstracted version within 78 lines we have set that code and just to demo how powerful this abstraction is I have made one more model here again it's a media there is a media, see in the previous example I had used this media on a p-tag but here I can use on whatever I want so I use it on image because there is one image on the left then I have a media body some heading content read module and if I look at this this didn't work much on this thing separately, we already have a component ready because these are the advantages of using following this object oriented methodology apart from head ins and media object we have fewer the stuff I personally didn't like that much like we have we have these selectors for all padding, margin whenever you want to give a margin of 10 pixels, you can add dot, mark, 10 but I didn't like that because I don't know it was as good as writing in line styling again so these are the good parts I have formed in object oriented CSS by the way if you have any queries right now you can start when you can need not wait for the Q and A no I can't see that whenever we use CSS we say we never do slugs, we do it on elements, yeah so I don't see but in that case since when we set everything to some model then we say CSS we say class, and then after that simple and complicated to work because at once I am not getting one it's totally not good that's the way it is again if you take one browser then it's like complicated but we have many browsers and the reason we are using CSS is to make it all yeah so anyway that doesn't interfere with this methodology because we are styling the elements in that and here we are just doing it on classroom and one more thing I have forgot to mention we won't be using ID selectors which is because ID selectors are very specific in nature so once you assign a style to an ID then it becomes difficult to override it if you have to override it again you have to use that band important thing and it's a nightmare like once you see the band important then you know we have this box there are two developers and they say ok my style has been over it and now I have to add one more thing specific to it then the other guy will say ok I will add band important, yeah it will not be done so these things happen we have one more methodology called smax, sma, css which stands for scalable modular architecture for CSS and it was developed by Jonathan who works in previously worked in Yahoo and now he is in Shopify it has the same philosophy basically the philosophy is to identify useful components assign classes to it reusing instead of and here also we won't be using ID selectors or descendants selectors and in this methodology it's based on categorizing the CSS rules so CSS rules fall under these five categories one is a base which is nothing but combination of preset and default look you want to give to a particular website then you have the layout for the containers then you have the module for the individual component then you have state this state when I say mostly you have something to do with a user being logged in or not or you take collapsed panels and then you can go all these things come under state so for assigning rules to this we use we use something like if hyphen or have hyphen that is active has border or something like that and finally we have a thin layer here we just change the typography colors and the background so what we do here is we show that a particular style rule that any particular style should affect only one of the five layers we shouldn't conflict with any other suppose you are styling a module then you should never be using an element class because the moment you use element selector it should be conflicting with the base so by ensuring this what happens is always properly well maintained and anytime you want to add something you will fall under one of these categories so there won't be any issues for this I think you know Peter Bootstrap is a very good example of following this problem in Peter Bootstrap we have we never have conflicting selectors for layout and a specific module in thing in public oriented CSS we have any variations it out depends like all that new developer who needs to know which class to do that he doesn't need to know how we are doing it right? we are just adding a class for every new thing we are designing so it would happen that we have classes for each and every possible element and later we could just make a string in match and create two components and maybe someday you won't be at this place at all we will be just adding classes for HTML and that to be we will just get requirements and we will see that what type of styling are we need to do right here we will just do it that's a very bad practice actually that's a very bad practice that we are suffering from that is called firebug driven development ideally we should never be using firebug by development it should be only for debugging mostly for JavaScript stuff if we are using firebug to make any changes to the UI when I say UI it's just HTML CSS then it's a bad thing so I think opportunity whenever a new developer comes let me know that these are the classes you need to add these are the classes available to you if you want if you don't find anything to get that styling just need to add a new class so we have a repository of all the classes and someday you won't be adding any more classes to the CSS so it would be like a framework we will just be using the same thing over and over we will have all the constable we will have 20 classes I don't think we need more than 4 classes mostly using 4 classes we have many populations to come up with when I have never seen more than 4 classes being applied to anything and moreover this is not something very new if you are familiar with jQuery UI and if you look at the HTML that gets generated in the runtime you have several classes attached to a single node so it's the same principle but we now have a fancy way and it's cool to say I call object-oriented series then I don't think it's a bad thing I don't think it's a bad thing it depends if your site is very huge I mean you have many different components and you cannot add different padding and margins in which way and maybe it makes sense to have classes for padding it would become consistent across when the design is perfect it is consistent across every element so that's fine but I generally don't feel like using that because suppose someday we have to change a particular module then we'll have to go there and remove that padding and that becomes a good work but it depends if you have very much website then that makes sense if you have very simple blog-like layout then you don't need an extra class for good help if you have a normal module selector then it's a more complicated class there is one more there is one more method called BEM which stands for block element modifier I haven't researched much into it but it has more or less the same philosophy identify a pattern identify a reusable component style it and mix and match different components and use so here unlike OCS we have a block so block in every page is a it's like a brick you take a transcription it's like a brick so you use those blocks and create a website one such example is a heavy block body footer instead you can have different blocks like blogging, search, whatever then we have an element the only problem here is these elements they have a meaning only when they are inside a particular block so they are not context free this is what I disliked about this methodology because these elements I cannot use these elements should always be used along with this block itself then we have a modifier which you add to change the styling that is given to this one the common thing in all is the way we look at the OCS architecture the moment you look at a design you write it down straight away start writing code first you look at the design and decide what all can be abstracted separately then what makes the component what is the stuff that I can reuse then we have these things are common across everything even if you look at we had element-agnostic selectors we never used element selectors at all we always used class selectors because that can be assigned to any element you want then we had context free selectors except for BEM for other two methodologies all of them have the same goal that style should not depend on the markup in the structure of the markup it should be independent so that you can drag and drop it anywhere if you have any doubts let's see let's see the free process when you know that so I think see every block like medium block is but if you want the proper independent instead of depending on a particular class if you want to use the media object separately then you are here clearing the quotes on the beat object generally what we do we add a class, we add things or something and it will be done quickly but in this case you can have a mixing class and use it on every element here it's a bit so that if you give this resource to a developer you can directly copy the state instead of including all the entire state that's what puts that place you can just take away one small thing and that directly works instead of including the entire state that's where I think we also should work well in this method class I think is a little bit faster like passing, passing, passing you can directly generally it works well with this methodology if you follow this methodology and then try to use class or less it would be more more maintainable and the generated code is good right now what happens is if you don't know how to write maintainable CSS then what you do is you keep on writing all the things and maybe it's maintainable from the back end but once the CSS gets generated that's a real mess look at it so you think it's an unwritten state you can have the same thing it's wherever you have manual work like you are repeating something basically you can make use of pre-poster to do that because I think stuff like that are made for machines to do it so we can also do the pre-poster I have seen few benchmarks and asked for that and actually what happens is if you use a class for the first time when the browser creates a renderer it will use that class and if you use the same class next time it takes very less time to create the renderer so it's actually a popular bonus for usable classes because that's how Cascade works because the browser has built science sheets already we have other science sheets again we have been said to have science sheets coming from the JavaScript plug-ins but yeah it doesn't make much problem in the commerce once you compress the HTML with everything then everything calls on to the same thing you won't notice any performance changes so if you have to drag a new project it will be too big for Cascade if your friend has never used Cascade it simply started using less but that too for only few things like branding just for the variables for branding and I follow object oriented CSS methodology so whenever we have a new design I don't write away start coding I look at it figure out what all patterns what all objects will be abstract and doing that really makes it easy for other developers because I had an experience after doing that another developer came into the project and he found everything was already written so all he needed to do is just close classes and make a new component one good thing about Cascade is it has I think it's used with compass we can make sprites and media data URLs and other stuff maybe that's good I have never used it okay thank you


What's up, good people and welcome back to SPM Buzz and Saudi TV. We are right here at the 10 years of hard band and as you can see it's Konanjugush, Pamudiana Sele, Karibu Nisana, Aswanti Sana. What's up, good people and welcome back to the 10 years of hard band and as you can see it's Konanjugush, Pamudiana Sele, Karibu Nisana, Aswanti Sana. What's up, good people and welcome back to the 10 years of hard band and as you can see it's Konanjugush, Pamudiana Sele, Karibu Nisana, Aswanti Sana. What's up, good people and welcome back to the 10 years of hard band and as you can see it's Konanjugush, Pamudiana Sele, Karibu Nisana, Aswanti Sana. What's up, good people and welcome back to the 10 years of hard band and as you can see it's Konanjugush, Pamudiana Sele, Karibu Nisana, Aswanti Sana. What's up, good people and welcome back to the 10 years of hard band and as you can see it's Konanjugush, Pamudiana Sele, Karibu Nisana, Aswanti Sana. What's up, good people and welcome back to the 10 years of hard band and as you can see it's Konanjugush, Pamudiana Sele, Karibu Nisana, Aswanti Sana. What's up, good people and welcome back to the 10 years of hard band and as you can see it's Konanjugush, Pamudiana Sele, Karibu Nisana, Aswanti Sana. It's very nicatu juuzi. So your consistency, na yoku enelatuku kwa pamoja, well then have the band. 10 years man, 10 years mingund. It's very good. Wa mese mam kiyon na watu wa dredi wewa suti, suti yoself. Alright, Anjugush, one thing that you think maybe other artists can learn from hard band? I think it's just as she said, the consistency. Because the reason why guitar puna chesa hibu na joining gomagani na hengi na shuwa mekua round for a while and want to chan out different tunes. So I think majorly it's consistency. Maybe another or rather one last question before we let you go. Naja keshom na mkia jim, mama bipisi? Well, jim lazima, jim chta mkia. Maybe one last question. Of course, wakeni angependa kuskepita kwa kwenu, you have been in marriage for quite some years right now. And akuna bitu ambave mekua zikifani kapalibokwenyemi tanda about, I'm talking about GBV. Say let's do a lab now and let's talk about it. Tanda best baron. There is a certain feeling that I feel, not a good one. A bad one. Niki on a bad days of itu zina happen. Especialy kwe tu. Laki generationenye to mezio nasipo. Nothing good comes out of it. So if we can stop GBV. At least tafadali to stop GBV. Yes. Could you go now maybe talking about the whole discussion. Of course, kwa relationship, kwa kwenu kwa gana apps in dowz. Nezatambia maybe for you in Mamatugi, how will you like overcome such situation? I think one, gender based violence must not happen. And not even one gender to everyone. To no one, it should never happen. Two, it's just, if you cannot solve your issues, ajaneni kwa mani. Akuna ajiw bitu kwa aguana cha pwa. Na kuja pia kwa kwa. Nakawali aja mambo pwa ku li kwa tansenye zi kwa kwa. How do you overcome maybe the low or rather the times? I say time heals everything. And as long as your friends, I don't think kuna kitu amoezi settle. And of course, talking of it, it happened to maybe one of the artists. Aka post later on, we saw an apology. And Kenyans were not agreeing with the apology part because they were of the opinion of if it happened once, then just leave. So do you say no to this? Well, you can't tell. It has to be the person. You can't tell someone to do it. Yes. So to watch it, kwanza e monewe aja mo liye. Exactly. Thank you so much guys for your time. Waja tukale.


So has everyone had a chance to take a look at the agenda? Is there any adjustments we need to make? Hearing none, we'll zoom in approved. Comments from the chair? I heard from Mike that the Housing Task Force canceled their meeting due to weather. So we're going to continue talking about, I guess, the master plan and the city plan. The plan of the city plan a little bit today, but we'll need to wait and meet with them in the future. So hopefully we can have a fairly short meeting tonight. That's all my comments. That's what struck me that the meeting could be fairly brief. The only thing I want to add is the energy committee met. Just give us a quick update on that. Yeah, and they have a very strong opinion about our process for the master plan. OK, great. Well, let's do energy committee. Let's put that under item five then. That's a subcard. I wasn't sure if it was. Nope, sounds good. Thank you for that. All right, so that's item three. Item four is general business. Anything from the public that's not on this agenda? There's no members of the public present. So we'll move on to the next item, which is the city plan update discussion. So first one that we have might give us a quick update from here then. And then, Barb, if you want to jump in and explain about the energy committee feedback, that would be great. All right, so as I mentioned in the agenda, the housing task force was canceled. But I did take some time to talk to Seth, who is the computer person here for City Hall, and talk to him about what we had been discussing. And he pretty much came out. I have no idea what I'm talking about.  He would sit down and meet with us to kind of set up and access type database that we'd want to start to fill in kind of in the same way that you were talking about. So it sounds like he's on the same page as certainly with John, knowing kind of what framework we're looking for, or an idea that we can start to. Who is this from? Seth is our computer, our IT person. He runs the website and all of the computer programs. He's a city employee. Whose office does he work at? Works out of the finance department, actually, because basically they were hired for the security to secure all the data. That's why they work for funds. You like security, don't you? But he thought this wouldn't be difficult to do. And a lot of the questions he asked were things that were talked about. It was going to be open to everybody in the public to be able to make changes or to restrict the access. He would recommend restricting the access to whatever group is working on it. So if we're doing housing, the housing group would have access to it. When it comes to the Planning Commission, the Planning Commission would have access to it. But he has other platforms that he could use to take public comment on. So it sounds like he knows some of the answers to some of the things that we're talking about. I think it'll be good at some point. Coming up at a future meeting, probably in the near future, we'll try to have Seth come in and sit down so you guys can talk in the same way, especially John. They may be ready to have him whenever it's convenient for him. So if you want to just check in with them. I'll see what his schedule is. That would be great. Because the sooner we can get that him in. At least to get a shell together, because we'll probably adjust that shell as we move forward. So that was I just had just that was the one piece I wanted to get to take a chance to talk to him about. The other piece I'll mention in this window is May 9th. Is I think, Jane, you may have emailed you, Leslie, about May 9th, which is the Council. So City Council is we've got a new Council seated. So they want to meet with all the department heads and meet with all the commissions about things. And so planning is coming up on May 9th. And so a topic they have already talked about with me on the side through emails is they want to know what we're doing about the master plan, City Plan. And very good getting the email right now. So they want to talk about the plan, what our schedule is for it. And I said, well, really, we want to have an opportunity to sit down with you guys to know is this a priority for the Council? I think it will be, which basically is going to give them the give us the green light to move forward on what we were going to be doing anyways. But we kind of dragged our feet a little bit waiting for the new Council to get seated. So we would be able to kind of get their blessing to move forward on a strategy that says we're going to do this in an incremental way, building towards having a plan. It sounds like from some of the other conversations that the Council is very interested in having a strategic approach at the Council level as well. So I think our idea of a strategic City Plan will also kind of dovetail into their plans as well. They want benchmarks, they want a strategy, set some goals, identify ways that we're going to accomplish those goals and then kind of set everybody out to get some work done. So, May 9th is when they're going to do that. So if we have some folks on there, any commission who want to join me, we're going to welcome to that night. I'd be happy to appear, but I would encourage others that are interested. There should be. I feel like the chairs should probably be there. Or at least get an opportunity to meet the Council. Yeah. We should probably figure out what our strategic plan is for making progress on the City Plan over the course of the year before that meeting. I mean, that's one thought is, I don't want you or me to get up there and thus have no clue of what we've accomplished this year. We've talked a little bit about how we're going to start the process. The first time this commission has gone through it. So I don't know what's a realistic expectation of how much we can accomplish in the calendar year of 2018. Well, I think certainly to start to know what we would try to get through in the first year would be good. Yeah. I don't think we need to lay it all out because I think kind of the layout of three or four-year plan would so much can happen between the first couple of, you know, the first year you'll kind of have an idea of how far this is going to take. You know, our two-year zoning process took seven years. Not that we want this to take seven years, but you just never know what one thing is going to get thrown in there to slow you down. I think the scope of the city plan is equally broad as the zoning. I mean, we're going to be covering a lot of topics and having to balance when there's conflict between them and it's going to be a long process. So, or maybe it doesn't have to be a long process, but it certainly is a big, a large scope. Yeah. I certainly think laying out for council that our goal is to come up with this first initial, whether it's housing, and I don't know what the energy committee was coming with, but our thought is if we come up with a first template, which gets us our framework set up, our database set up on how we're going to do it, kind of sets up a process. We can work through that process once. You know, this works. Now we just got to start to run transportation, energy, you know, land use. All these pieces start to get run through the same process over whether it's three or whether it's four. And some of this is going to be a little back and forth with the council because the more priorities they have, the less, you know, I have the same amount of staff. So the more I get divided up, the slower this is going to take unless they're going to allocate funds for us to hire outside consultants to do the work. So there's going to be a certain amount of what their priorities are beyond the city plan and also what resources they're willing to kind of put to make this happen. Because certainly it obviously goes faster if you've got more people working, so. Well, let's hear what the energy committee thoughts are and then maybe we can talk about what sort of timeline we want to aim towards as a growth. We can think a little bit more about that. We don't have to come up with a plan that we're going to have to stick to, but we can be thinking about it. So why are voters that? Well, as you may or may not know, the energy committee's been working on this for several years. So we came up and I just, I looked at my files in the last entry list. Revision was 615. So we sort of stopped when all the zoning and everything else was going on and the level of uncertainty in terms of how we were going to proceed on this. But we wanted to have a document that in the energy committee wanted to have a document that gave us specific benchmarks and specific goals over certain time periods. Now I realize that the way we've broken it up initially may not fit quite into Mike's scheme because what we thought of as goals were probably more like strategies. But anyway, I'll talk about that in a minute. A couple of things came up. We talked about quite a bit. One of the concerns in the committee was how, as part of the master plan, which the ideas of the net zero competition, particularly the five finalists really not looking at anything else, how we were going to integrate some of those ideas into, and I explained that it was more of a mappings where kind of exercise had more to do with land use potentially than the section that we're working on right now. But it's still that they were very anxious to make sure that something moves forward on that because there's sort of been this lag. And I realize in talking with Mike about it that his department needs to get directed by city council in order to be able to take that on in any formal way. Is that accurate? Yeah, we just need to get in some directions where we can start putting resources towards different projects. Right, right. So I'm gonna sort of dive into that. I spoke with Anne Watson about it too, and see from the council standpoint how they might want to approach it. Because if the council needs to act first before we do, before we can even talk about it as part of the master plan, then I think it has to start with them. My guess would be that if we were recommending adoption of various elements of that, that the council would then consider it and make a decision. Right, but we can't... We're recommending it as part of the city plan. It's like chicken and egg here. We can't get started until Mike has direction from the council that yes, we should look at elements of all of the plans. Right, have we permanently, is this, we know this for certain? I mean, this is... Well, I think what we'll need is just, we were at a small pause because of where the last council left things. There was a, some members, there was never a vote, but there were some members of the council who didn't want, who had approved the master plan that was approved and didn't want the planning commission to spend more time working on a revised city plan, master plan. So that was the council that was here before. They've now been replaced. So because we had a council that was basically saying, don't work on the city plan, the planning department was kind of left saying, we kind of need to wait and see what happens on the elections in March and then wait for the new council. So we were pretty sure based on who was running and who was gonna be elected as to the direction of the new council. But we really couldn't overstep where we were, even though we knew some of them weren't running for re-election, we still couldn't move forward. So this wasn't to do with the bridges net zero. I don't know how familiar you are with the, there was a contest. The design competition. Yeah, so for that, so I guess I'm confused as to whether you received the last you heard was direction not to work on the city plan or not to work on the bridges proposal or not to do either. There was a little bit of both, but there was during the adoption process, comments that were made by more than one member of council about not wanting the planning department to spend more time doing a new city plan or master plan. Because they would rather have the planning department working on other priorities. Well, but that's what we're doing now is the new city plan. Yes, because, but we haven't really jumped in with both feet because we've kind of been waiting for this as January and February were kind of rolling along, we're kind of like, well, we really kind of need to wait, but then there was a discussion of, well, let's wait till after the election so we can formally get to the new council so we can formally make a recommendation and we should as a commission or you should as a commission make a recommendation that says we think you should direct staff to work on a new city plan because we think this will be a value. I didn't realize you were under this. Sorry, I wasn't clear about that. I didn't realize it went back and forth. No, Mike and I have a lot of emails back and forth where he's like, we're waiting. No, I want to move forward. So now it makes a lot more sense why you were saying things like that. Oh, I'm sorry, I thought that had been, you were. I must have missed it. Yeah, or maybe I've been a meeting you weren't at when they had that explanation. Can certain aspects of the city plan be adopted as amendments to the existing plan, for example, an energy plan? If we did a full, it really comes down to this. It's gonna be difficult to kind of amend this plan into a new plan just because of its format. But we can certainly go through and see how we could try to integrate it. We may go through and be able to selectively delete a section out of the existing master plan and then put an addendum on, which as we take pieces off here and add pieces on here that we would eventually end up in a place where we've got it. But we'll have to explore legally and functionally how that would work. Well, I have some optimistic theory that good ideas will drive out bad ones. So I would like to hear Barbara's thinking in her community's thinking because it might be something they might say, hey council, this is something you could do. We could have some foreseeable results in the next years. Well, we were concerned on the energy committee because we feel like we have a 2030 deadline. And so because we have the city has- And the clock's ticking. Yeah, the clock is ticking and we're just like kind of sitting there being very anxious. So that's why we jumped into the energy plan in the way we did also because they originally wanted to integrate it with the regional plan. That ended up not making sense. So strictly kind of an energy plan for the city. So just for background, why did the city council not want to jump into the city plan? I think it was a certain amount, and this is obviously interpreting other people's opinions, but my sense was they were pretty well tired of, I mean, they had, I met with them 20 times. So 20 council meetings in 2017. I met with them to talk about zoning. So the thought that I would be back in 2018 to start to meet with them about bringing them chapters and discussions of what do you guys think about this for an approach for housing? What do you think about this for approach for energy? I think some of them were pretty much like, we don't want to see you. We think you should spend your time working on other things. I think there was a certain amount of that played into that approach. And I think this city plan opens the door to a lot of potentially contentious, this is where we work out a lot of, the rubber hits the road, this is where water quality is gonna run into economic development.  So do we have more or less development in our downtowns where we want less and pervious coverage? So you're gonna, we're gonna have to come up and make hard decisions and make those hard balancing decisions. And I think some of the council was just like, we've spent 50 hours with you working on zoning and we're about done. We need to work on other things. So that would be my guess is they were kind of just a little burned out from that. But at the same time, I do know that the certain members of the council have very direct goals, whether it's housing or energy or, I haven't met the new councilors. I move forward with the city plan. So I think if we go there with a presentation and with a recommendation that says, look, we can't move forward without your authorization. Our recommendation is direct city manager and planning staff to move forward with the approach of doing a couple chapters a year and coming up with some quality and to start with, and we recommend starting with housing and energy as our two first chapters because those seem to be the two most timely ones for us to work on. And I'm wondering, in reference to the design competition finalists, is there some way to integrate that into our land use considerations as well rather than waiting till the end? Because it sort of seems like some of the issues that were raised in those plans are up our front center now with proposals that are coming up. I thought we discussed looking at that in our context of our land use map as an initial cut at our areas for the city. So we will look at the land use map. Yeah, the bridges proposal could be a really useful start to our future land use map. What was my understanding of how we were gonna work with other people? I think, well, not only that one but the other, I think there were a lot of great ideas that came obviously from that project and some of the other proposals that were played into some of our ideas and taken into it. Yeah, the energy committee was certainly interested in looking at all five of the finalists or at least the four of them. So I guess I hadn't heard before that we would take up the land use map early on or initially even. Yeah, it was a discussion that we started before we hit the pause button on the development of a new city plan member when John printed out that large scale map and we put post-its on it of what we thought we wanna change of all, I don't know if we're gonna return. Yeah, I mean that's where I hope we could maybe go or how the council, we could maybe present this to the council instead of like an issue by issue approach if they think of it as what's different about Montpelier in a decade and then once we can identify that we can work towards it but a lot of those things will cover issues from housing energy plan. They're not different. So instead of being abstract, they'll be on a map. Right, which I think is really a good idea and a good way to present it to the council. So I guess the only question I wanna make sure is that those design competition finalists get their thoughts are included and now that we have a new commission, we're gonna probably need to be able to sit down and take a look at those in a more concerted way. Could we get them to come and show and tell here? Well, there are five groups. Well, but you are gonna try to summarize or at least draw some consistent principles out of it. Right, so I think one thought might be to have the five presentation boards up for each of the comments. Can you guys take recorded their presentations? Right, yeah. So people wanted to go on to Orca and see the videos. They could do that. I think the energy committee has specific aspects of the proposals that are particularly important to the committee. It'd be helpful to know that. That's an area where you yourself wouldn't have to do all the work, but if the committee has opinions about these, certainly we wanna hear. Yeah, I think that might be at a later phase. Right now they just wanna make sure that we're paying attention to it. Paying attention to the five finalists as part of our process. We know it's there and we will look at it. So we can set a date or whatever. All right, so that was one of the points that they brought up that we discussed. Because it does seem like that whole... Excuse me, did you just make a decision that we're gonna hear from the five finalists at some point in this portion? No, I just said we know they're around. I mean, I don't know if we can pull out all the five finalists to give some presentation. I think that might not be the most realistic. But I think if the energy committee and you mean like the House of Task Force Committee, if there are other, if the various committees that are working on chapters can make recommendations about these proposals and what they think are important to adopt, I think that would be really useful. Well, my knowledge of the competition was a little vague, frankly, because I just didn't get to see it all for some reason or another. So I think that's the thing that the energy committee wants is that the council, and the commission actually has a chance to sit down and look at those five finalists. You can certainly go to their presentations on Orcas, as Mike mentioned. I'm not sure that that's going to be necessarily informed. I could have somebody come in from the Sustainable Montpelier Coalition to talk about the various plans. We could certainly get the two top plans for Montpelier Architects and they could certainly talk about those. If you wanted to have the actual people come in. Yeah, I would like to see some of the visuals. Absolutely. Just bring us up to date on that. Yeah. You can watch the presentations and see the visuals online. I think the production quality is actually pretty good. Yeah, it's just not the same. It's not the same as seeing the board. I mean, the Bridges board is 10 feet tall, it's huge. Yeah, so I think if we could set them up in the council chambers and just look at them individually as some of the other, in the past those kinds of presentations were not. I hate to say it, but anything I see electronically has a certain unreality to it. Rather than a real human being with a poster saying this is what we want to do. Maybe what we can do is set up a time that's state of over and present, kind of give us an overview of these projects, but as homework for that day. That would be good. Yes. We have a lot more background going into it. And then just that way, we could have just one visual, potentially, from each team. The boards. Rather than they produced in many more, eight or 10, you know. That would be great. Okay, so let me see if I, I will get the website, the link to the Orca video. Thank you. And I will get the boards. Great, and let me know who to reach out to for. We can talk about this tomorrow. Okay. All right, so that was one piece. Sorry to drag that one out. I just wanted to make sure that was included. And then the second thing was this discussion about goals and how we proceed with goals. And there was a pretty strong feeling that we, that the energy committee would like to hear about at least initially, what all of the committees are thinking about, all the committees that will contribute a chapter, I mean, are thinking about for their goals, rather than go through two by two. Because I think doing it that way is, I felt it was too disjointed and they sort of agreed. They really want the energy committee talked about, well, could we have a meeting where committee chairs of each of those committees that are offering chapters come into a common meeting with identifying five or six goals. These are the goals that my committee thinks they want to have. And so we could blend them together and see where they're overlaps. Because we don't want to go ahead with doing a lot of work on the energy committee. We're gonna be overlapping with transportation. So that's the kind of interest they had in our process. Especially because we have identified so many goals. And in some cases we're already working towards those. And I brought copies, I realize in looking at them now, they really don't fit into Mike's. It's the ideas that are important. This was just a kind of identity. This was just sort of the very, and I think Mike's seen an earlier version of this, but these were some of the kinds of goals, the way we set it up. These are goals that should perhaps be more overarching. And I think the other thing that would really help is we talked about before was Mike putting together an example of the format to give to each committee in terms of here's the aspiration, here's the goal, here's the strategy. There's one coming up. Yeah, there's the aspirations, goals, and strategies. There's just the three. Just the three, okay, all right, all right. So I'm sorry to do this all in bold, my computer was going crazy. But these are the kinds of things that we've been looking at because we want to be able to, not all of these we can benchmark, but many of these we want to be able to provide, give ourselves targets to work against. But thinking about all the other committees, I mean, coming in with five or six goals, each of those committees would really be helpful, particularly if you look at the transportation ones. We've got a lot of detailed ideas about what to do about transportation, including reducing it significantly. But if that's not the transportation committee goal, then we're going to be clashing. And we'd rather find that out now. Could be a good idea to have like a Pecha Guja type set up with each committee gets time, like five minutes time to five slides to present. How many committees would we be talking about that are actually contributing chapters? Energy, transportation, utilities and facilities, I don't think we actually have a committee pieces. I mean, we've got a recreation, we've got natural resources, which would be Conservation Commission, but probably, and maybe not as many as we think, five, six, there's seven right there. So if you said eight to 10, in case you left somebody out. So can 10 people work on a Pecha Guja? Yeah, yeah. Different presentations. That's 15 minutes, one hour. I think that would be really helpful. I think we'll just have to get, I think once we get the digital piece, the online piece that'll help the different committees be able to plug into their piece in a format that helps them make it so that way there's a little bit of consistency between them. Even though we're not really rating them or judging them or evaluating them right now, they at least will all be in the same format where you can go through and say, okay, now we can start having a more, more of a discussion about substance now that everybody's in the same format. So you could offer them a template on our Google Drive. And then they could go in and put their goals and we could just say, this is just the first step and some people get refined. So we'll work back and forth. I like the idea of having everyone in the room at the same time because I think that will help us not to overlap but make the whole process to be a little bit more efficient. She is captured. Oh, Pecha Guja's are great. Pecha Guja, I'm not crying. Please explain, John. I think it comes from Japan and maybe the architects world, the architects started doing this. And it's actually like 20 slides and six minutes and you have like... They're timed, right? They're timed, yeah. Whether you want it to go or not, it's moving. Maybe lightning cocks is like... Yeah, it keeps people from getting off on the tangent and wandering off and getting behind schedule, you know.  Yeah, you're not required to have 20 slides, but I guess that's the max that they could kind of recommend, but there would be no discussion during this. This is just the presentation. And it might be great as a challenge to the committees to come up with their goals and present them. I think it's a good way at the beginning of the process. We're gonna start looking at these chapters individually to have some sort of kickoff, something that brings them together. And then we need to be making sure throughout the process that we're coordinating all of that work. Because you're right, the transportation and energy things are really gonna be, a lot of them are gonna be related. So we can't, if we just work on one at a time and then if housing is first and then we're done and then a year and a half from now we're talking about transportation and how we didn't change those goals and now they don't match. We have to, it has to be consistent. Can you say some sort of conclusion? At least a preliminary discussion. That would help to start and make sure that we're being consistent. And we're not overlapping as much as possible.  Yeah, well we, with the delay and the meeting, we didn't get it yet. So we can use this as an opportunity to invite everyone to that. I think, you know, it's gonna take it, presenting them with a package of information, like sample and saying that we would like to get all of the, I hope we'd like to get all of the movies together. I don't know if there's like a date and like a venue that we could have this in that's not here, that could be followed up by like social time because after that it's nice for people to connect and go talk about each other's ideas and that's not like, I love City Hall, but. Yeah, it's not gonna do so. Nobody's grabbing drinks and talking about. Yes. And even if, you know, two people from each committee come there's 20 different people in here, it's not easy. Is that something that could happen? I think it's just gonna take, it'll be a little bit later. And I say that because once we get the framework ready, I'm just trying to think, if we get a framework ready, I would have to meet with all these different committees to kind of give them the framework, explain to them what we're gonna do, give them a meeting, some of these committees meet only once a month. So for them to come up with their five goals and to develop this, so they're ready to then meet, maybe something happens closer to the summer just based on the amount of time that they take. Yeah, I'm thinking. A committee that meets once a month like a housing committee or a transportation committee that meets once a month that might be tricky. Well the energy committee was hoping that you wouldn't have to meet with each one individually. And maybe that means that there would have to be two group meetings. The first one to present the format and give them examples for the kinds of goals that I'll be looking for. And then the second one to actually present their goals, I would. So you've met with various committees previously. So they all should have been thinking about goals in one way or another previously, right? So I'm wondering if it makes the most sense to pick a date a month and a half or two months out from now, put together a package that would go to each committee that would say, you're invited to this event to send a representative, or as many of you who can attend, great. And I think I would put this together, Kirby and I would put this together, particularly in light of my new knowledge about planning departments' direction. And it would invite them to this event, which would then have some sort of social aspect after it. It would introduce the online working components that we're going to try to use so that they could, here's where we're gonna have these Google Docs and you can edit your doc, your doc, and then once you've sent that recommendation to play with them, they would have the draft, we would have the drafting authority or that document. So there would just be a single committee with custodian over each document at a time. And we would also ask for their recommendations about five finalists from that zero and whether there were any aspects of those projects that they thought as a committee that were particularly important. And I think that could kick off this discussion and it would be, I like how it's, both you and both John and Barb have explained how we think that harmonizing all of these committees from the start is really the most important thing that we can do at this stage, at least as the commission that's going to ultimately be bringing this together, we might as well start it that way and then folks will feel like they're all part of a team, they can go off and make more specific proposals based on the goals that we've discussed and then we can all come back together again. So you're thinking that this meeting that where the frameworks introduced, that we would still ask them to bring a general sense of their major goals. Yes, I mean, they're invited to this meeting and present their, yeah, present the goals that they have that they've discussed within a five minute presentation. Right, maybe not as formal as I'd appreciate it. Take some preparation, I think. I don't know, John, have you participated in it, Jim? Yeah, I failed miserably. Oh. No, they can be fun and I think 20 is a lot. So when you limit it to five, it becomes much easier and I think if you let people know that it'll let perfectly the enemy of good and that this should be fun, something that you'd be judged on, this should be more kind of the introductory to explain who you are and maybe a general idea of people's thinking. What their goals are, yeah, yeah. How many of these aren't there? Well, they're just trying to count. Well, they're 20 some committee, 20 to 30. Yeah, there are a lot of 20, there's a whole 20. They're nearly all active? Yeah. Well, there are a lot of them that we're trying to combine. So we've got, I mean, you have a housing task force and a housing trust fund committee. We were managed to combine, we used to have parking bicycles. Road. Pedestrian. Pedestrian, right. Pedestrian parking and transportation were all separate and we combined them into one and then got to pull it back out to two anyway. So, I think we compete with South Burlington for the most. Well, we've got to. I think we probably beat them. They're pretty good. We have a committee for everything. Oh, okay. In fact, we even had an appointment for the committee of committees. How about historic preservation? Historic preservation would be another committee that would be. Okay, I wasn't sure if they were fitting in. Yeah. Well, I think this would be a great way to move this forward. And if we can do this soon, she was suggesting the next six weeks. So Mike, are you waiting for that May 9th meeting the city council to really know whether we should be moving forward with this? We would probably want to have it happen after. I mean, we could certainly send out a letter or start having the discussions, you know, late May. I was thinking late May, early June. We would have the kickoff meeting, you know, the social kickoff meeting, as Leslie was saying, introduce the online components of this, introduce the goals, concept, presentation of that zero, Vermont. You know, this is the kickoff of a process that leads to a second meeting later in the, well, by that point would be in the summer where we would have the committees all show up to kind of present their five goals. Oh, I was hoping that would happen at this first meeting. So they're going to have in the next. That's why it would be critical to have the kind of communication with them presenting, you know, that we'd like you to identify at least some initial goals. And as Leslie said, they hopefully have been thinking about this for some time. You're hoping to have the goals of that one. Right. And I don't know about the presentation on the competition, but by finalists, do people think that would be a worthwhile thing to present to the committees? That you're going to get a week so we can at least look at that? Right. I would definitely think that we want to discuss it here. I just don't know in the format of this committee. I'm not sure that that fits in. But it's hard. Yeah, I think we would need to, I think we should look at it first and then we can decide if that fits. I'm not sure what I need. During the competition, their invitations went out to, I send invitations to all of the pertinent committees to come. And several did. I'm not sure transportation with natural resources, housing, so they sent, at least took a kind of an individual look at it with that lens, with their committee lens in place. It could definitely go out maybe with some background and invitation material. Sure. For those who are very involved with it or already attended a lot of it, or 3%. But a lot of people have forgotten about some aspects of it too. So, okay, so. I mean, if they're going to be doing some presentations of goals, that just may push them a little bit further maybe into June. As I said, a few of these committees only need once a month. So we got to get this limitation out soon. Yeah, to get them and have them have an opportunity to kind of talk about things. Yeah, at least one meeting prior. Yeah. I've been told that the Conservation Commission chapter is drafted. Oh, okay. Yeah, and so they could have an annual. Yeah, some of them may be farther ahead than others. I know historic preservation isn't, they're working on other things right now. So you're thinking, is it possible to do it late May then with the point at which the committees might have been able to have to. So this is because the energy committee is anxious to move forward and. Well, yeah, and it sort of sets the whole groundwork for our work too. Yeah. So, I mean, as I see it. Yeah, and I. The challenge is going to be coming out of my office is how much I can try to be able to get through next week's the last week. Today's the last day for taking applications for the new zoning administrator, a new person on with the new zoning. Oh, I mean, the good news is this stage doesn't require heavy lift from your office because we're asking the committees to present goals. And they certainly have background enough that they can do that whether they have, you know, so goals to include. Yeah, I could just send something that says we're interested to hear what your, your top goals are for inclusion in the next plan and we want to discuss the group. And I don't, I mean, I think it's always nice when you can attend their meetings in advance of those things, but I don't think it's necessary. And if, to that end, if any invitation I could say, if you need help understanding how that would fit in the city plan, a member from the planning commission take volunteers. Spread out the effort. Yeah. Yeah, but you certainly shouldn't have to do all of that on your own. And we could, and the letter could tell them that there will be the, basically the format that we're looking for, the template of the format. So they can understand how all-encompassing goals might be, would be on your Google. So I think I should identify a location, a venue. And then I will, I think all of us should be at that event. So I might send out a doodle poll, figure out the best date. I don't think that having the event on nearing I can meet anytime is gonna be the best way to get people involved. Except that it may be conflicting with the fewest other meetings, but I don't know. Well, I was thinking a weekend actually might be the least inconvenient for most people. I think weeknights are challenging. What are other thoughts? Any thoughts on this? Breakfast. I think they'll all be challenging. They're all gonna be challenging. I wouldn't do it. I don't think weekends will be better. Provide food. Seven a.m. Yeah, on Saturday. Time to shine, John. Oh boy. Probably the first. At seven a.m. on Saturday? Yeah. I don't think so. Well, I'll be up. Yeah, I know you will be up. Who will you be up? I will have been up for at least an hour. Kirby will be up. Yeah, yeah. All right, okay, well. Well, why don't you and Mike select some dates and put out a doodle poll? I don't know. I don't think they'll say anything about that. We'll give them a fair amount of warning because two months is a pretty good amount of warning about this meeting and how important it is that the committee be represented. This isn't just a, if you want to come. It's really necessary. For the planning commission, as the body that's due over, of the kind of the overarching effort. Well, they can volunteer one of their members. Sure. Sacrifice one. Okay, so the May 9th meeting with the council, I'm going to attend. And Mike, your sense about that was just, it was like a overview of what we plan to do this coming year. Yeah. So like this Wednesday, they're talking with the city manager and finance departments, I think, about the, it's really kind of an education opportunity for the new councilors, you know, who's the city manager, what is finance, what do they do? Another meeting they'll bring in the police department and the fire department, they'll talk about what are the emergency services and what are the big issues for them. And we're up on the night to talk about what is the planning department, what do we do, what are our needs. It's usually just a, it's an opportunity to educate, it's an opportunity to make sure that we kind of end up understanding, having them understand what, how we fit into the bigger picture. Because we like to point out when, when the council finally puts out their goals, they'll usually come out with this list about 10 or 12 goals. And usually about eight of them come back to the manager and the planning department working together on something. And although we're one of the smaller departments and have one of the smaller budgets, it's one of these ones where a lot of the routine things are done by, places like DPW, you know. There isn't a goal to plow the streets, it's just part of having a city. But usually when you're talking about trying to change things and move things and solve the parking problems or that zero 20, 30 or whatever the goal is, it usually is gonna end up coming back to the planning department, make that change happen. Okay, okay, great. So I'll try to have Seth at the next meeting because obviously we're gonna try to move this forward, we'll have to have some, we're gonna point people to a Google Drive but actually have one set up. Yeah, so I can grab something that we can discuss at the next meeting. Yeah. And we can add in whatever Seth helps us with. Yeah, the more ideas you have on what you would like to see on this shared drive and how you want it laid out. As I said, this is really outside of anything I have. I can make any recommendations on it. Not my specialty. I lean on other people. But your format is what we're looking at. So, that's just the technology. Yeah, and my format really was just to kind of lay out a starting point and not really be an endpoint but kind of a place to start to have the conversation where and how we wanna organize our goals and strategies and then planning commissioning. Committees wanna take it to a different direction and they're welcome to. Anything else on the city plan? Okay, let's move on. Item six, upcoming zoning amendments. Okay. Yeah, this won't take too long because I don't actually have the amendments drafted up. What I did wanna kind of start to point out are the things that's up and rear it's ugly heads a little bit. So, you saw a picture here, a little thing with Google, with a little Google picture and a map behind it. So, this is just a four instance. So, the four instance for the map, this is Berlin Street, this is Wheelock Street that goes down. This showed up on our National Resources Inventory Map as a stream. And under our Rime Parian zoning rules, you must set back from the stream and you can't build and you can't do these things and you can see looking at the map that it actually is running pretty close to buildings and the irony of course is, if you look at the Google view, there actually isn't any stream there. So, it's one of these. What if it's underground? Like the other one? It is buried, it's been channelized, which is our, which just certainly is just one of the things that we think we would just go through and edit this map to make a recommendation to change the natural resources map to take this stream off and not regulated as a stream because it's actually in a culvert. So, you shouldn't have a 25 foot Rime Parian setback from a stream that's buried. There's one of those that's caught before that. We did catch one, yeah. This is just a much longer one that happened to somebody who was doing a project up on Berlin Street and we noticed, oh, you actually can't put a shed in because it's in the Rime Parian setback. So, and we figure we'll find these periodically because we changed the rules as much as we did. That's just one example. Another one, larger one deals with landscaping requirements. So, so we had some questions. There was setbacks for parking areas was one that came up. So, parking areas have to be five feet from a property line and we had a proposal on the parking lot that is behind the drawing board, behind where we're gonna be purchasing the M&M beverage building. We're gonna be tearing it down where we're building a parking lot. Well, according to the new zoning, that parking lot would have to stop and have a five foot buffer from the rest of the parking lot because that's where the property line is. There's no exemption for a parking lot that actually connects to another parking lot to simply have a continuous parking lot. So, I believe they gave a waiver of variance for that but it's one of the ones that there should be either some express discussion about what happens if, John and I have two commercial buildings and we just wanna have the parking lot connect between the two. We wouldn't be allowed to do that. We could have a road that connects between the two but we actually couldn't have parking spaces that just keep going. So that five foot setback is in all districts then including the urban core. So, would it be enough just to change that for the two urban core districts? It could be. We just need to come up with some solutions and that's just one case that came out. We'd wanna get rid of the five foot setback. I mean, we've put it there because we wanted to have it for the street. And I think some of these, yeah, certainly we could exempt it from the front setback because you would never obviously have a parking lot joining another parking lot on the front setback. But. You shouldn't be able to put in a front parking lot. Then you can't put in a new front parking lot. But it makes sense from other even side yards in terms of dealing with runoff and from your paved parking area in the neighbor's property. So, yeah. Yeah, so we had it, but there were a couple of questions like that. What is channelized? That wasn't an issue. That was yours. That was a problem that was created by the city council when they decided to keep, they decided to enforce riparian buffers in the downtown. They said, well, anywhere that's channelized, you don't have to meet that requirement. First application that came through, DRV didn't know what channelized was. It didn't know how to enforce it. We've had a number of issues with signs already, which we knew when we did our sign rules that we were gonna have problems with them. So we're gonna probably have to come back to something, they're just different issues, particularly with things like price signs, or you can have signs, you can have price signs, but you can't have the digital price signs. And it's just weird where they're allowed and where they're not allowed. But the big one that's come up on a number of these has been landscaping requirements, which just are very, they're very specific. And that was why I handed out, you'll notice some of my notes that are in the other pages of 3.20, yeah, so there are a couple on point H, how far for trees to count. So for parking lot landscaping, it says you need a certain amount of landscaping for your parking lot, but it doesn't really say where the trees have to be. So it's a tree that's five feet from the edge of the parking lot, does that count? What about eight feet? What about 10 feet? It doesn't really tell us where a tree has to be to count as parking lot landscaping. And then I have a note on the next page for point G1 trees to shrubs. So there's very specific in G1 that says a minimum of one shrub is required for each five feet and one tree is required for each 30 feet of exterior principal building perimeter. What if I have eight trees and 50 shrubs and a project has 10 trees and 40 shrubs? What about flowering beds? What about other options for landscaping? Your only landscaping options you have are trees and shrubs. And there's no definition of where those trees or shrubs can be planted or need to be planted. It just says for every foot of building perimeter you need to go and plant so many trees. So we actually had a proposal on route 302 that had maybe half an acre a lot but a portion of it is up on the forested hill. So they're like, well, I mean, how many of those trees count towards our trees? Oh, because it's in their property. It's on the property and there's no requirement here that says this is where and how you count the trees. So this is where kind of the technical parts of zoning the reality hits of, okay, how do I count a tree? How do I count a shrub? And what if I have more trees? Can I count a tree to a shrub? Does one tree? Well, what was the overall intention that we had? We wanted to put trees in to lower the heat effect of the parking lots, right? Well, in this case, those were just general landscaping requirements that said for every building foot you had to put so many. But that's what I'm wondering, can we more clearly identify what the goal is which would help us to kind of determine where they should be? I mean, when I saw the plan in figure three dash 19, I was a little surprised that you hadn't gotten to work push back from the tree board because some of those islands, the trees are not likely to survive very well in those islands. And then of course, you don't really wanna put trees up next to your building because that's going to destroy the foundation. So some of these other ones are potentially problematic too. So I don't know that we wanna be as specific as saying, it has to go here and here, but what's the goal? What do we want? Why are we gonna find it? Yeah, and can a tree be counted twice. So you're required to have 17 trees as a result of your building size and you have 14 trees as shading for your parking lot. Do those trees count towards your, can you, are they additives? I mean, the goal is screening. I mean, it's right here. So it's a parking lot landscaping and screening and it's aesthetic, the aesthetic value of that, I would assume is the point of it, given that the word screening is there. So, you know, so that you have a little bit of screening when you're looking from the building, you don't see all the cars or looking for another building.  But our example doesn't exactly show them as screening trees. Yeah, and then the other one that we ran into is just how to handle pre-existing, pre-developed lots. We have just rules that come in for, let me give an example. There is somebody wants to, on Berry Street, put in an outdoor deck and expand and they don't need the landscaping requirements. But because they're going out and doing the expansion, they have to meet the landscaping requirements because it's requiring a site plan. We don't have anything that grandfather says as long as you don't do this or if you make a small change, your holding needs to make a small amount of change. It's if you want to build a deck on the side of your commercial building, you're going to need to burst them into compliance, which is going to require you to put in $25,000 worth of trees and shrubs and vegetation. Because we don't have a pre-existing condition that says if for pre-existing, pre-developed sites, this is how we're going to handle it. In some communities, what they would do is to put a cost thing that would say at no point will the city require more than 2% or 5% of any project to be required to spend on landscaping. So if you did have a project which said, we're a restaurant, we'd like to expand our deck. We're going to put a new deck on here. It's going to cost us $10,000. We couldn't charge more than $500 so improvements to the landscaping, even though it would take 25,000 to fully come into compliance, they're going to come into compliance $500. Or you just need to have some kind of factor that gives you an out. Otherwise, you're going to end up killing a lot of redevelopment proposals on existing lines. Those decks would fall under minor site plans, right? They can sometimes, but minor site plans are not exempt from landscape requirements. Right, yeah, so I mean, is that a place to start? They just don't, or others. We just need to have some way from our office because this is the number one issue we have is landscaping. Some of these other ones, outdoor lighting has big standards, but it has an out clause in the bottom that says you can go to the DRB and get a waiver. There's no waiver requirement for landscaping. Everybody's got to meet that requirement. So there are no outs, there are no dollar outs, there are no, so we kind of got a number of these applications that have come in where people have pretty much walked away because I got a small project, I'm a non-conforming lot and I just can't meet these new requirements. So these are the types of things that I'm going to try to draft up some rules for you guys or we may, if you want, and this was a little bit of a today's conversation, I was just going to have this, how would you guys like me to do this? Would you like me to put together a proposal? Do you want to just kind of talk about each issue individually, let me just kind of collect up the issue, bring the issue to you and then have you kind of say, this is how we think this would be best issued and then I can write something up. I like your tables with the problem and the recommended solution. Yeah, even recommended wording, I think, so that we stay consistent. How much of this can be fixed with waiver? I mean, some of these minor kind of oddball things you've recited, be nice if somebody could just say, hey, wait a minute. To get as close as you can with the goals that are in the, and let it go, because it isn't going to have a huge impact on the city of Elton. Review that way. It's going to have to go to the Development Review Board, but the question is still going to come back to be, they're going to need a certain amount of guidance to know what should be approved, what shouldn't be approved. That goes back to the goals. Yeah, we need to have a certain amount of specificity so they know this is where it's okay for us to say. The waiver right here makes most sense to me because I can't imagine a regulation that foresees all these little dotches. Yeah, so would you offer us some suggested language? Yeah, certain of them make a lot of sense. And certain of them, I think, are going to be easy and it'll take us about five minutes to go and say, yeah, varied streams. We can take the varied streams off the map. And in some others, we had a couple that are just, that I didn't mention that are just one word changes that say changes can't have to may have and it kind of makes certain problems go away. That'll require a mountain or do process, right? Anyone of you? I think we got to have a public hearing. We'll eventually have to compile everything and then warn a public hearing to go through. My hope is that these will be the most important changes that really have to be done to make this workable. As I said, this landscaping issue is a big one. This one kind of stops just about every commercial project in the city that's on a pre-existing lot because we don't have it out for a property that doesn't need to be. But we'd have to have a public hearing and then the city council have to have two. Yes. So this is a glorious process. It'll take some time to get through, but I'm hoping it's not as much time of our time. I think we can get through a lot of these. We'll be back. We've got another proposal. I'm hoping it'll be short. The Cottage Clusters is another one that we found as a mistake because it's allowed in residential 9,000. It's allowed in rural. It's not allowed in residential 24. We've got somebody who wants to put one in residential 24, so they're stuck with it, they can't. So we're like, all right, we think that's just an oversight. It's a pretty easy process for us to have a conversation and say, yeah, it's allowed here, it's allowed here. Certainly it's going to allow it in the district in between. But yeah, once we make that decision, it still takes us three months, four months to actually adopt and make that change happen. But with that, no one would ever use the Cottage Clusters. No, I know, imagine that.  So you're saying that we could make these changes. You could do your run of your matrices, we go through it and make these proposed changes. Well, yeah, we would bundle them as a package and do the process and, you know. But could you use them before that time? Probably not. I mean, once it gets warmed by the city council, they're basically effective, but I think we're, if we got in a real bind, we could go to this city council under an interim zoning change and they could do it in short circuit and go a little bit faster. But I think it's just a little bit of a slow process. So we aren't looking to make this a really big thing because we, again, we know how once these things get open, they just take on a life of the pen. So we really want to take it in a bite. If we have to do another one of these in September or October to take another bite of small zoning fixes, I would rather do that than try to go into one big one that ends up with the dynamics that we had last year. So a couple of quick fixes. It's free again. Yeah, so signs may end up actually waiting because signs is probably more, is a bigger discussion, but we'll try to keep it as, I'll come up with some recommendations. Thank you. So that's it. Examples are helpful to you. What's that? Examples are helpful to you.  Oh, yes, yeah, we'll, yes, the interest is. The examples are easy, that's how we found out. Item seven, if you can sit. A little improvement of minutes. Yeah. Kim moves, a minute and a second. Any discussion? Bards, you were here last time, right? Yes, I was. Yeah. Just list that one. I know. All right, all those in favor of adoption in the minutes. Seem to five by saying aye. All those opposed? Okay, minutes are approved. We got a new minute, taker. Nope, the same, still canned. I did make some edits because she had some questions on stuff, but. Does she have more texts tonight? Yeah, I was a little more in text. We kind of, as she was saying, it kind of got, we kind of got running around and so I took a look at some things. I did want to just, before we forget, mention that anyone's welcome to grab the card. April 4th, Historic Preservation Commission is having a bigger meeting. It'll be one of Sarah's last meetings unless she stays on to finish this project, which you might, we have to figure that out to see who the new person is. That's a regular city council meeting, or is it just a show and tell here? This is, it's actually, not, it is on Wednesday, but it's not a council meeting. So it's a public. It's a public meeting for historic preservation. They're gonna talk about updating the city design review regulations, learn about the city design control districts, the importance of historic preservation, share your thoughts and stories. So they are looking for input, especially from people who live in the downtown, but anybody is, not anybody who's kind of interested in historic preservation or character of the neighborhood.  She's been doing a lot. They actually sent an actual card to every person who lives in the district probably. I'm trying to remember if it's a design control district. I brought extra cards here. Welcome to take one. I'm trying to remember who got sent whether it was just the design control district, or if it was a historic district, but they sent it out to everybody. That's great. To try to make sure everybody understands this is gonna go on. Now the district may be proposed to get bigger, the district, the design control district, they're referring to, not the national registered district. We're talking about the design review district, the part that goes into zoning, and whether, do we keep this district the same? Do we make it bigger? Do we make it smaller? What types of things should we be looking at regulating? And I think what historic preservation wants to do is take an opportunity to talk to the public and talk to people about why this is important. Why is historic preservation important? What makes Montpelier unique is not just the people, but it's buildings. Okay. So that's on April 4th, April 4th, 6.30 p.m. In this room. In this very room. And that being said, I have a motion for adjournment. I could make that motion. Thanks, Ken. Second? I'll second it. Okay, all those in favor? All right. All those opposed? No. Okay. No one opposed. We are adjourned.


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