All right, how dare we being late? The pictures of milk like actual pictures It's a picture of water. There's like pictures of milk I didn't say pictures of milk. That was I miss reading that is very amusing All the time I went jay with you in the picture of the pizza Cardboard pizza I Guess I'd be interested Yeah, well imagine if there was an economy in the future where like I don't know We had some crazy tech where you could just print I guess I don't know why I'm going with printing at this point if we're in the future More impressive than that Which prints out the food and it has the flavor, but all of the nutrients in the piece of why would it be a picture? Like a block Like will building and you're like, why would it be this way? Like just getting little blocks of food that have all the correct nutrients, but a flavored like things that actually taste good Is there a slave around I Don't know if that's a particularly Marketable like name for the products. I think we'll have to try a little bit harder than that Because you're gonna upsell great cubes that people would want to eat. Oh remember a water. Yeah, you have to really sell those Yes, you I'm sure in the future They'll be able to flavor things that are very healthy for you. Whatever you'd like we'll have I mean it's very good probably yeah Or we'll have those what of the the from Star Trek the food maker things what are they called? They have a special name essentially they just they just make food I'm pretty sure I know that man. That's why it's frustrating me. Yeah. Yeah, like I should know what they are But they like tea Earl Gray hot and you tell the computer what you want and it just makes it steak Replicator. Yeah, something like that So I don't well, I guess they I guess they replicate Yeah, they replicate the food which implies that it's not Well, I guess that's how you take Replicating like normally when you say I'm going to replicate something It means you're gonna make like like a simulacrum of it You know like it's not gonna be the real thing Well, I guess to make the exact copy of whatever lacks Probably isn't something that would because it sounds like you're saying like you'll be missing something from the original well, I So I I don't know how the technology is supposed to work or if they just don't explain it But maybe the machine has this huge Supply of just raw Materials and the forms of like elements carbon and all that sort of thing And so when you tell it what to make it gets all the materials and assembles them So it could essentially make a steak out of just the raw particles and atoms and It like the cells and it assembles them together. Yeah, it puts all those together Without having to actually like grow the meat and to do it the natural way It's the it's the same thing as meat But it doesn't it isn't grown. It's assembled on a molecular level I Don't know. Well, Star Trek is one of those you can't think about some of the technology too hard inertial dampeners and universal translator because not every episode can be Darmak and And on that note welcome to e-fap 158 We're we're talking about all kinds of chat ins and topics and discussions But also a runy a video now the origin of this is a good old friend of mine sent me a video and was like I like this channel. They said some stuff in this video.  Holy shit well and To further give context I'm not a fan of you cannot do a thing because it's been done too many times before Even though I'd probably casually bring that up as something about stuff in history You know like if someone said like we can't just have the good guy beat the bad guys too boring It'd be like all right I mean, you know, we should probably think about it a little bit more specifically than that Like instead of just be like he's got to do something different because it's like a trope at this point of the good guy wins Well, let me ask you this what is the difference between a trope and a cliche? That's not so I don't know And and should we sort of I guess agree on the two if there is a meaningful difference So I like definition wise. It might be worthwhile to figure that out Maybe if we talk about by Merriam Webster, which I'm citing because that makes you sound smarter Neat go on okay Probe a word or expression used in a figurative sense and be a common or overused theme or device So I like the first part of that. I like a commonly used one. I don't like overused Use me and that feels very And plus the good guy defeats the bad guy. Is that a trope? Sure. I like it though. I don't think it's overused I don't think we have too many stories for the good guy beats the bad guy in the end cliche is a lot more qualitative the number one a trite phrase or expression number two a hack need theme characterization or situation Three something such as a menu item that has become overly familiar or commonplace So when a trope goes too far it becomes a cliche Well, it seems like actually so cliche. So all cliche means is not original really Like that's like it's like I could see how a cheaply made or lazy movie would be full of cliche Days because they couldn't think of something original or interesting themselves, but a very cool Like I bet if you went through the father or pretty much basically any movie you'll find tropes You know, but that's right. It's a trope that everybody speaks English Yeah, it's Is it a trope that are like films obey the 180 degree rule when it comes to like cinematography? Fringy explain to the audience what the 180 degree rule is It's basically that if you've got like two characters talking to each other You know, like if you have one person framed on the left looking to the right the person They're talking to need to be on the right frame looking to the left You never want to put the camera on the opposite side Otherwise people get confused and like you can't tell where people are Kind of In terms of a lot of the camera often stands on one side of the train one side in the air It's particularly important in a movie like that because of the directionality of that set Yeah, if you only have left and right to go you really don't want to confuse them and go wait. Why are they going back? Right. Oh, that's the right way. Okay. Oh Okay, they're okay. Okay. They're not done. That's good I guess reading these definitions it feels like there is no difference between these two. It just means an overused thing I like I like the idea that a cliche is when it's it's overused and unoriginal and almost like lazy Like you're relying on a cliche, but tropes are just emergent almost I feel like cliches are almost Um, I think maybe with a cliche you have to if they're a little more specific maybe Um, like when a character is about like like when we're watching batwoman or some show like that Well, there's no show about woman And you watch it and right before characters say something You roll your eyes and you say their lines before they do because you know it's coming because it's just a cheap obvious thing to say Like that might be a cliche Um, or as tropes are more broad I guess the problem I I don't know if if one definition says a common or overused Theme or device and the other one says a trite phrase or expression trite means overused and unoriginal So like it feels like they're basically the same thing and the any distinction that we try to draw Is just going to be like the one that we prefer, you know I I enjoy my Yeah, sure. I mean I'm uh, um I'm like cool with that as a definition. I guess it's just um interesting because you often hear cliche Like I feel like both of them are tinged with negativity at this point like that. They're not the negative term trope more unfairly so I would say by my definition I think trope is uh, typically negative when it seems like It's actually it just means common So like for instance, is it a trope to say? Hi, how are you like is that a trope instead of just saying hi or how are you or Any other number of trope? Yeah Like a trope of small talk. That was the weather. Yeah Important to note though this this gets brought up every once in a while um Tropes are descriptive not prescriptive Absolutely things things are tropes because they pop up a lot They do not pop up a lot because they are tropes. No, they're definitely distinction. They're definitely descriptive I guess i'm just now you can make a film you can if you want to but now may oh maybe that is the difference, right? They're gonna say this that's a cliche. That's what people say, you know Maybe you can use that a little in the other way whereas tropes are more They just they just sort of tend to happen in storytelling and maybe cliches are more a little well, I guess uh What you just said is probably like the broad topic when it comes to tropes and cliches and storytelling is that You're gonna have them probably because like all creative work Is derived from like something that came before like it's it's It's kind of impossible not to write something that is not In some part influenced by something that came before it Which is part of the reason why there are tropes in the first place, right? Like people get inspired by a story that they like and then they do something similar They get inspired by you know, someone else gets inspired by their story and then it becomes similar And so like it just becomes just a common part of Like is the three act structure a trope is it you know is um Like uh, uh, is in media res a trope is I don't know like a linear story that starts at the beginning where it begins and then ends at the end Like is that a trope at this point? Oh, uh, in media in medius res means In in the midst of things or in the middle of yes, so what's when a story begins just sort of in the middle of Stuff occurring. You don't really get much. I don't know why you would say no fringy dot dot dot. I'm I'm This is a hype like I'm not actually asking like it's it's a topic um Uh, I guess it's just um I think that um like trope and cliche get thrown around a lot And I feel like we Probably worth like diving into it a bit more than that and then just saying that's a trope. Don't do that Yeah, plenty of tropes that I love I think they're used interchangeably a lot to me the line uh is between writing out of laziness and writing because you're reflecting some truism that can be reflected throughout history and patterns of behavior and uh, I don't know which is a trope which is a cliche Um, I'm inclined to say that the cliche is the lazy one And the tree was like it hears more to the truisms that you can I guess it's about history Like it's more okay Like if if if you said this this is a trope in the movie I'd be like, okay You know like tell me more if you said this is this this movie is really cliched. I'm like, oh, okay Like I'm less. I'm this movie is very tropey. Did you feel like a very tropey movie? Hey, awesome. I'm excited. It's tropey. It's tropical. I guess it's funny to think about because it's tropical I think it's it's interesting.  You know, like it's gotta be different to be different I'm not like all those other writers It's it's kind of like um, like is the because someone could say at this point In fact, I'm pretty sure it would be the hero's journey is like a trope. It is just a it is a common recurring storytelling, um device but Like I don't I don't see that that is a good reason To not do it Like because because usually a lot of the the advice follows, right? Like this is a trope so avoid it or change it or don't don't do that Um, but I mean there's a lot of things that are just recurring elements of storytelling because they typically tend to work They just You know, if if you see if you feel like if everything's justified Generally, that's gonna be good as long as it all makes sense. Well, yeah It's just you ask the question of why is it that the hero's journey is often a is a very recurring storytelling device like why Do a lot of stories adhere to the three act structure? Why do a lot of stories have it? There's like the second act low point and then the hero comes back and then wins at the end of the day it's just like a I don't Just because something is common doesn't mean that you can ascribe any like level of quality to it Because something happens a lot it feels like um, we need to go further than that And any explanation we have for why you should avoid it will not come from because it be common But just that it's not a good choice Right Yeah, to me like that at three act structure is the most effective formula for an emotional catharsis And to deviate from that you're just gonna get a lesser effect. So I think you can be very broad structure too It is a broad structure. Yeah, there's so much freedom to operate within that skeleton. Yes I was thinking about a lot of operations take place in a skeleton actually I was thinking about one that I don't even know if you call it a trope or a cliche, but um Something you want as a writer a lot of time when you have a you're building up your villain and your hero at the same time You want to have them talk to each other before any kind of final confrontation typically We're not so different you and I Yeah You want to make a reason for them to have some kind of conversation and they found a solution to this In lots of different things and the dark knight did the joker was indeed caught which means that You know batman can talk to him directly and they have like a big old chattaroonie But he wanted to be caught. That's how he got in there and then he can get out and so that we can still have our third act payoff and then You fast forward to 2012 because a really really well thought out well constructed plan on how to get out They always do um you have 2012 then sky fallen avengers Both the villains in that both wanted to be captured in order to escape later So they both talk talk to the heroes if you know what I mean So we get that as well and now um because I've seen talk about this the batman trailer Riddler is caught and batman is talking to him people like oh, we're doing that again and it's like Well, I mean that again cat when the hero talks to the villain Well, just I like it when my hero gets the villain allows themselves to be caught because they always wanted to be and then they'll escape And they're just like oh we've seen this before and it's just like I mean surely it'll be about the execution uh Yeah Oh, I would say it's always about the execution. I guess it's just um There's also it's worth more thinking about like what are the payoffs that you can essentially get from just allowing a cliché to happen um because you know a lot of like that great drama that potent spicy drama Is when you've got people who are just like diametrically opposed having to talk to each other It's like usually you get some really good stuff from that um And of course like if you want a further like personal relationship between like the hero and the villain and not make them so disconnected you want them both together And it's not Like if that's a cliche that the hero cap like the villain is captured and then the hero talks to them and then the Villain gets away I don't I don't want to live in that world where apparently that's bad and we're not allowed to do that anymore I if I notice something like that and I'm like oh we did this before I am almost immediately I've seen in my brain has been like hey chill out. That's not a criticism Just because it's happened before yeah I like when that beat happens in an almost friendly context like the movie goldfinger Where like well bond is captured I guess but goldfinger's just like come on out for tea And they just they sit down. It's like yeah, here's my evil plan. What do you think? We had a lot of the time I had the villain the villain calls the hero and they'll just be like you're annoying me So they're just basically just beat up in the bar in movie heat and just have that conversation. Yep.  I human skin Well, it can be some web material, you know some we don't have to jump No, I thought I thought you said he needed to I thought you said he needed to fully commit Okay, sure. I'm reason. That's true. That that is a little bit unreasonable.  I'm just looking at images of man bat. Jesus Christ. He's a Man bat. Look at this. Look at this lad here. He's like roiding out That's cool Man bat. Oh boy. It's one of batman's villains Oh, it's a batman villain man bat Yes, he is actually I forget about him. Oh my goodness. It's like batman for the other way around That's right. He looks like he looks like one of the gargoyles, but with pants Yeah, I can see the gargoyle Do you have pants on or the gargoyles have pants you mean? Oh, no, he's wearing pants I don't think you got a shirt Do you think he had blue legs?  He's just Look at those veins at his ears He's so muscular that he's bat the very angry Um See one I I want to bring up because it's going to line up similarly to the one that we'll be discussing in this video We're going to check out, but it's not the same and the one that has bothered me for a while is uh Barry a gaze. Have you guys heard of this one? Yeah, yeah, yeah, I've got a whole graveyard. We don't like it when back in I don't know. I want to say like 80s 90s.  I think that's It's kind of like the the black guy not surviving until the end of the horror movie I think might be similar to that, you know, the the conceit that they raise is Those characters are less important and thus they are killed. Yeah, yeah, which something like that Depending on the content may or may not be true.  We're like, I don't know. I'll just kill them. Um Unfortunately many things that I like quite a lot gets criticized for this when in the story It is like incredibly important and justified But it's like, yeah, but they're gay or they're whatever so you can't kill them Otherwise you'll you'll leave that trope Once once you hit that point, it's like, ah now this is the corrosive element of allowing Too much consideration for tropes and what other people do Influence your story because you may well have written a story Where committing to a certain story beat is the correct decision for the story But you might be like, uh, well, but like But people might say that this is like those other things and then it falls into a trope Ah, I don't know. I'm not going to do that. It's like awesome. So you've now made a decision that has hurt your story Based on basically peer pressure. I think the the first death in it chapter two, which is not a film I Particularly think it thought was great.  Like what is this? What are we doing? Do you want representation or not? To me, I see this the opposite.   We need more women in this more women in that and then Sure enough women would get killed in stories Because that's what happens in stories is characters can get killed and they have bitched and moaned Well, this is what this is.  You're gonna get killed by clowns Yeah, and I feel the importance of a character shouldn't have anything to do with their sexuality or their duration in the film Like sometimes a really key character can be someone who like dies in the prologue or something and like sets up The whole line of action for the main characters Well, I mean it's been said before but like all of the story of game of thrones It all comes back to Ned Stark's death, which is he's in the show for like You know 10 percent But it's always that that's caused everything ultimately Yeah And that's the thing that that was like, um, that's the value I guess because it's it's not about actually the quality of writing It's just going to tell you whether or not you're it's almost like the um The reverse engineering of subversion because you're like how do I subvert and it's like well Look at what's often done and then do other things It's like so main characters usually survive so you can kill them Gay people don't get eaten by clowns enough or too much do the opposite Okay Surprise my audience Um, yeah, and I don't know I feel I feel like it got to a point as well where people will be like this show has this trope Such as barrio gays, so I'm out and it's like oh That's that's just seems really fucking strange instead of just pointing out that that happens a lot maybe Um, barry your gays as in bury them in a grave like to kill them. Yeah, it just refers to You have a gay or well an lgbt character in your show or movie or whatever and they end up dying That's barrio gays. Okay. No, right.  No, I'm very That could that could be his gangster name Gaze He's in the he's in the mob and he's got really big eyes is like man This year, this is buggy malone and this is bury the gays And there you go, um, they got pinstripe suits and Yeah What was real name's bugsy bugsy Mola just wants normative values in films I don't even know what that has to do with anything really.   Can we say that? I think we can It's it's bury the whites It's doing um I was gonna say Luke Fox.   He almost fell for the clue master person's daughter or whatever, didn't he? Um, yeah, that's right. Yeah He's probably by Yeah, I would assume they'd want to do well. Yeah, but anyway, it's a funny world.  Like that's just how it like seems to work I don't know where the people in this universe come from the gay world Either way, uh, that would be a show that completely bucks this trend and look how well written it is Case in point like that's the it doesn't guide you to good writing to avoid trope I don't think At least not strictly like it's um, I think that there's I think I certainly because we've been talking about like You know, I think that there is definitely an approach that you can take We look at something that is commonly done and you can find a way to twist it work it around Like find a find a way to change it a little bit Um, like there are multiple ways that you can subvert a trope. Like there's more than one option even um star wars That that first movie not having luke strike the emperor down instead His subordinate has a change of heart because it's like that that's pretty subversive That is subversive.  Yeah, everybody does it Everybody's inspired by it doesn't so that's why it feels like it just tunes forever like Something that was great because we've I think you said it just earlier for you, but like, you know a simple story That's almost subversive right now. Like whoa Yeah, like It would almost be subversive to just have like i'm i'm like Coming of age and little medieval town.   It doesn't anymore, but like back when I first discovered it I'm just like fuck. You can't do anything without this site going.  It is the internet version of the simpsons did it Yeah Your main character's going to sleep, huh? Yeah, and and they all have little nicknames too like each trope. They do yeah It's like awesome. I thought I was really smart Then again, that is kind of like a great ego killer when you're in your uh, your edgy phase when you try to write You're like, oh, i'm so smart.   It's not and somebody already did it better than you will And uh, it's like humbling your words since we'll be looking at the video about it What do you guys know about the stuffed into a fridge trope? It's origin Yeah, I know about the stuff. I assume that's referring to indiana jones, but I don't I didn't know that was It's not where my mind goes as well It originally It originates Well, you can do it Well, the problem is you probably because I vaguely know if you probably have it written down Someone tell me i'm at the edge of my seat. It originates with green lantern uh He makes a big green fridge and I was just going to read the actual heebie tropes thing to give you the Run down because I figured they'll have it better than I can say it as well A loved one is hurt killed maimed assaulted or otherwise traumatized in order to motivate another character or move their plot forward Uh, the term sometimes referred to as fridging was popularized by comic book writer gale Simone or simon. I think simon. I'm not sure Yeah, her website. Yeah Women in refrigerators on that site. Simone compiled a list of instances of female comic book characters who were killed off as a plot device It is named for a storyline in green lantern in which a villain major force Oh, is that his name? Okay Leaves the corpse. Yeah a major force Uh, he leaves the corpse of kyle reyner's girlfriend alexandra de witt Literally stuffed into a refrigerator for him to find years later major force repeated the gimmick with kyle's mother in an oven It was just a trick with a mannequin that time though Um, the term came to be used more broadly over time to refer to any character who was Targeted by an antagonist who has them killed off raped and or otherwise brutalized and Pacitated depowered or brainwashed for the sole purpose of affecting another character motivating them to take action Okay So you can probably see how it started and you can already see how this will unravel and start to become a bit fallacious in terms of Anybody who dies and it motivates anyone else to do anything. It's like, oh wow.  It's like Yeah, I was like, man, that is just like That's like common Well, yeah, if you have generally Protagonists at least back to the day protagonists were normally like good-ish people A lot of the times our hero would be A good person. He would be upstanding.  I mean, this is like the I mean This is as tail as old as tails um Uh a film recently called the big ugly. I don't know.   Uh clockwork orange main character Oh, you're talking about, um, alex the large No, I'm Was that not it the guy? He taught history and community Oh, okay Someone in chat's gonna tell me any any second now. I'm completely blank. Malcolm McDowell. That's his name So and he's like actor, right? Yeah, he's like an I think an english investor or something And he visits ron pilman with his like Malcolm McDowell Yeah, yeah All right So he visits ron pilman with his like top bodyguardie band vinny jones And uh, that's like the the hook of the film.  Everyone has a girlfriend and ron pilman's son.  Ooh Um I was like, I wonder how this is gonna unravel uh She's like partially into it partially not and it gets out of hand.  I was like, oh, this is kind of like the fridging thing where We had to motivate the destruction of this deal And so he has to kill that girl I was gonna do it. It's like, uh, they try to sleep. He tries to sleep with her. She refuses. He kills her I guess it's like Yeah, I guess that'll be enough to make vinny jones do what he does um And what I'm getting at is just that when it's like a death that motivates them, but it comes from like A plot line as in we just mentioned game of thrones, uh, net stock's death You can see it coming a mile away Just because of how every character is characterized where he is what's happening.  If that if that is a trope that it's like man, like what what options like I'm not And generally your hero Well, I like we were talking about earlier most care most people on the planet are straight awful as it sounds And so if the the majority of your especially action heroes And action protagonists and things of that nature are men Then that means that they will have a female romantic interest Who will serve as The traumatic death It wouldn't even be seen It wouldn't need. No, it wouldn't even need to that's just presumably the other way around because they called it women in refrigerators But I know for a fact that that could apply to just anybody dying at this point Again, that's not the point rags. Oh, we're Yeah, it is That's what we're talking about the women thing It's an explanation for why remember how now if most like if we lived in a world where most people were gay Then the trope would be different I guess it's just um when it comes to because I I imagine what the trope was was like man Look at all these women who just get killed so that like I don't know our like Protagonist superhero guy goes and fights the bad guy and it feels like really Lazy and purposeless. Well, I assume Rags the point was just that you can see exactly how that happened. It's not like nefarious Oh, yeah, yeah, like it's it's I mean it follows right because what is what is like Very quick way to get to our to like drama.  It's like I imagine if you looked at in 1999 Probably would have been like man. This happens a lot. Um, that can't be it though in terms of the criticism That it happens a lot. Um Like there needs to be something If there was nuance at one point for a lot of these tropes they get boiled down because like it's interesting It's someone in chat just said that um That's not the barrier gaze trope. It's about token gay characters getting killed off once the author's done using them for representation That's a way better Criticism because that seems like you could actually get somewhere in terms of detailing how that is happening Unfortunately barrier days gets used on even characters that have been there the whole time and their death is like very specific I guess this is the thing right when it comes to because I could imagine that part of the criticism at some stage was that the women characters who got killed didn't have much Of a personality or really anything at all. They were just like, uh, I love you my girlfriend slash wife slash important person in my life Oh, no, you're dead Skeletor i'm gonna get you like I imagine that that was the criticism Um, but I guess at that point you're like, so what if I develop like a really well fleshed out character? Who is really easy to like and um You know, they're just a person they they have a life They clearly have a life in this story and then they die and then that motivates my main character to go forward And they're wearing an I love life t-shirt By the way, it's it's funny. I love being alive. That's a guy laugh That same person said for it to be fridging it has to be like a long term grief It can't just be short term And it's like the thing is what you're saying makes much more sense like these are actual criticisms That's not how the tropes used um believe me Uh, because it's it's unfortunate, but I don't know that it's it's not like I'm saying everyone doesn't use it wrong But that's what I think the trouble with tropes is um They get like Broadened actually.  Yeah, there's definitely an overlap here with what we were talking about earlier about like laziness versus like what should happen in a story Because it's actually meaningful I mean to to kill off a character just for the sake of making someone angry to get some action going is so Lazy, right? They kill me rather now they're gonna pay But like what what constitutes a meaningful death, right to to bring up You're talking about it in the first part where the little kid's brother dies in the Prologue or opening scene or whatever That kind of shapes him and it makes him afraid And it's that fear that the clown ends up taking advantage of and he overcomes that fear Like that that would be an example where the the death actually means something Another one is I was thinking of the end of the third Indiana Jones movie where the place is breaking up and that That chick falls in the pit and she's trying to reach for the I can't remember her name, but she's reaching for the holy grail and like Her reach exceeded her grasp and she she fell to her death and she let She yeah, she was she's overwhelmed by the the intoxicating power of that Grail and she tried to grab it and she died as a result and that there's something to that It actually means something especially in the beat after that where indiana jones isn't the same perilous situation And you don't want him to make the same mistake And he doesn't that's good shoot Yeah She was you gotta make your deaths mean something else. It was just like i'm pissed off now. I gotta I gotta kill these bastards. She was that highlights the premise I guess that highlights the point though isn't it's like we need if we're gonna say that the trope is like When someone dies and then it motivates the character or if that's what it becomes it's like So we have missed something here like something's gone wrong um We've now we've now taken something where it's like, okay So maybe it'd be a good idea when you're writing a story not to just have like some really flat generic woman character Who dies and then it makes our main character go wrong. I'm gonna get you Like maybe you should actually try and give her a personality or like develop her or even think about other options that you have To make this story happen Um, but once it becomes like oh, so when you kill somebody and that motivates the character then it's a trope. It's like Oh, so like Many stories that are good. Like just I know Like this you just you just made this way too broad right, yeah Uh fridging is often given a very negative connotation as it is all too often a hallmark of supremely lazy writing Quickly hurting or killing an established character as cheap anger for the protagonist and devaluing the life of that character in the process That is what I completely agree with especially how characters feel Um, you know, like your can be their wife dies They kill the guy who killed the wife and then they're totally happy you'd be like No, that's not quite right, is it?  Like how can we just quickly establish this guy's your dogs Fridging you don't fridge your dogs. Oh, I mean Yeah, but I guess that's interesting right because like you look at john wick It's like we're so it wasn't just about the dog. So it's like that's an interesting example of fridging your dog where You know, we haven't bridged your dog at all. That's actually a purpose behind it Yeah, the dog came from a specific place. It had exactly I guess that's the point though, right is that When when it's like, oh, that's a trope. It's like, well it Give it give it more thought, you know, like think about what else is going on in the story John wick and the green lantern. I haven't read the comic, but presumably it's the thinnest possible iteration. I imagine it is if they both qualify on the trope because because that's what people are going to be Saying right like to clarify it has to be that it's you know got these other errors to it but We may discover today That some other things get put under the umbrella the word maybe they fucking shouldn't be uh So, you know not foreshadowing it all there But uh, it's because I'll say devaluing the life that character in the process instead of giving the villain Something actually interesting to do that can involve all three characters and more emotions than simple anger and angst that feels a little bit like The person writing this Just involve their own writing advice, which is that Never kill the person.  I think like Is it I think it's just it's more complicated than that. It's like you could but you could kill them like that's it You do more with four or five Depending on your fucking writing abilities, you can do more with two than with three You know in terms of who they are where they come from and all that So just because there's more people doesn't necessarily mean you have more content to work with Um, no means more problems to solve potentially potentially Down with the writer Um, it should be noted that while the term mostly commonly applies to male characters female love interest It can be used for numerous different scenarios of all genders and different relations from romantic platonic and familial The core part is that one character is killed or at least has something very bad happen to them for the sake of causing emotional trauma For the target with said victim often acting as a plot device more than a real character in worst-case scenario So that's like I think the heart of the criticism. They weren't a person They were just a thing that was supposed to Um make a different character do something Yeah, which I think is fair, um I think that's totally fair because you could always think about it like let's Cause fridging doesn't mean killing it could also mean hurting So like I don't know let's imagine we have hero man And then I don't know his daughter like his turn is basically paralyzed by the villain on purpose And it's like how much time do we get to spend? Seeing the perspective of the daughter after that happens if it just happens and then she disappears to the side While like the dad goes off to kill everybody. It's like You know, you could do something with that character It'd be interesting to see what her perspective is and whether or not she feels like she still has agency How much she participates in the story? What influence she might have over like the main character's choices by interacting with them in the future? It's like Yeah, you do have options that are worth considering What about a story that is from the POV of the villain? And the villain needs hero man To get angry and try and attack him for whatever reason, you know, you can make it up And so we're seeing the villain and he's like, what can we do?  It's like, well, that's that's the worst kind of the trope That woman wasn't even a character and it's like, but what if in that scenario Like the story isn't about that woman But you know that killing a wife of a person who loves them is going to motivate them to do stuff You know what I mean? Yeah If especially if it's from his perspective, he didn't care.   Hmm all the time Every single very damn day I suppose someone could argue it's like, well, if you'd given a character I would have cared more about hero man And his relationship to her and stuff and I'd be like, sure, but does the story become bad? Especially when the POV of the villain You don't even necessarily have to care about her you have to care that he cares Yes, yeah, that's that is kind of yeah I'm trying to think if I know that there is there's got to be examples of this We're like stories start out and we get like very little In terms of the relationship of the character and the the people, you know, like, um, you guys see the tom jane punisher With john yeah, I have yeah, we get what like I don't know five ten minutes of him with his family members Hero, yeah Yeah, and like the person I think we get the most of is him with his dad And that's still like or his wife, I think his wife and his dad and it's like they're the ones that get a little bit more time But they're all wiped out And he doesn't forget that throughout the entire movie, right? And so the the two components of Just because they're avenged doesn't mean you stop caring Like I agree with that one But the other one of those people have to be characters on their own Like I wonder how far you would need to push that in order to make it meaningful when we all know that, um You have someone you love in your life It's gonna motivate you to do x do you have to know that person's character? I wonder I'm not sure I don't I I guess it's just what yeah, like and I mean we could even push it further What if the story begins with them already dead? And then you just entirely progress from there and that's the choice you've made It's like is that fridging and if so can you qualify that as being a necessarily bad choice?  Uh, and we didn't really get Their relationship that much in terms of the two movies you get I think one scene of looking at them together You're just like I believe that she really loved this guy That's that is what is important Um Well, so that's funny because I'm pretty sure I'm not hundred percent I'd have to watch it again, but I think the point was less so being with that guy and it was more so getting away from bill because Um, even bill calls her out that he doesn't think that those two have a relationship that's meaningful It's that she doesn't want the baby to be brought up by bill There's that um But that doesn't I mean not knowing the relationship you have with that guy or the family around them or the town that she's in I don't think it makes it any less meaningful And so because a lot of people say in surely it's contextual like with all of these and it's like yeah I think so and I think that's how we should treat basically everything and so tropes can become Infectious in terms of it's like, uh Almost like shorthand for criticism, but it's like no no no no you need to do more work every time most of the time Every time 90% of the time Um anyway That's enough of us talking about it. Let's listen to someone else talk about it now this channel Um, I've already seen loads of people in chat saying have you guys not checked out here? Mary sue video apparently like I have not but people have said she said that rey doesn't qualify which That was so she does I mean She's almost made it so that she's the archetype now She's the poster child for Mary Suri. Yeah Like I don't necessarily care to use the phrase, but I mean if we're gonna talk about it like yeah We can go look at the qualifications and like rey I'm I'm wondering even if she didn't qualify originally she's changed what it means to be a Mary Sue at that point regardless But I'm pretty sure she does qualify I mean if she's not a Mary Sue, yeah name one Um, yeah, so I don't know uh Because this channel has been recommended in terms of like an e-fab gas before so this you know I'm pretty sure anyway. I'm sure people have asked to get them on and stuff and it's just like all right Well, you know still may be in future if they're up for it, but uh They put out this video like said a friend of mine was like Oh, man This isn't this bad. I was like well, let's Check it out. It's called. Um trope talk fridging And so we're gonna learn about fridging and how to how not to and stuff in a nice little presentation See if we agree or don't Already Oh, wait, is it paused? Oh your deaths are a big deal There's a case video was sponsored by world anvil 100 guaranteed to not do Yeah, okay. Is there is it working for everyone else because it was just doing yeah Yeah, yeah, it's on it. It's on a world envelope right now. All right. Let's turn to zero here we go Video was sponsored by world anvil 100 guaranteed to not do terrible things to supporting characters I don't want that So I was gonna say I hate I hate to pause already, but Doing horrible things to supporting characters. Is that bad?  Yeah can happen Be horrible, but you know that could have meant anything. So we'll just let it continue This before its own trope talk, but character deaths are a big deal They're momentous occasions both in story and out. This is uh, this is a total tangent, but I would I'm trying to like I'm trying to So yeah, you've already jumped the gun a bit. I'm trying to listen to relaxing nintendo music And it's very hard to do that when the video that we're watching is going to have the Completely agree It's it's it's a topic for us all Uh, when you picked say you started out in 2008 Really early and you were like I do a show. Uh, well not a show a video series. I guess where It's always within a particular context or framing for example trope talk and you're like, yeah, I always use this track It's the trope talk track or something like that. I always I always dream scape my 009 sound systems Um, like uh, like how someone who said this song is a trope. It's like, yeah So I've heard that before there was like, yeah, but that's the that's the this tune And I just wonder sometimes I'm just like, but it wasn't at one point you made it that and now that's like almost an excuse so that you never have to think about the music Is that good? Like, uh, surely you want to pick the music a better associated with the content It's almost like don't need don't even pick music pick a pick a noise almost like just a like a It's barely even a melody. It's almost like a um like Like you can't because you don't want to have someone try and pay attention to a melody Instead of listening to you it's almost like Yeah, like an ambient sort of Tones or what barely constitutes as a melody something very simple and soft in the back Something that's uh, not too punchy um Because if someone's trying to be like, oh, what's that music in the back and their their mind is focused on identifying the notes of the melody Distracts from your words. I think uh, I think there's a lot of uh, hey, you could have well You can't have chill nintendo music that get in trouble But like, you know something similar to that like those donkey kong country sort of just like the underwater the chill ones that are pretty uh Like slow and and come you got options. Um, you don't need to always use Or the Do Like you can pick different ones. All right, then burn it to my head. They are a little bit. Yeah Well, I recommend against them because they um, they're like signals to you that this is a video of many if you know what I mean Rather than its own thing Uh, yeah, someone someone in chat said, oh like video gameplay rags No, it is not like video gameplay Because Because if you don't look at the video gameplay, it ceases to exist It cannot even possibly be a distraction if you don't even want to look at it We've talked about that on party faps because we the problem is music not all gameplay is made the same way Um A lot of people just throw gameplay in a lot of people choose gameplay to put in Difference being the interesting gameplay or not and that's definitely a um A choice as well because most people it seems consume youtube videos that even fucking looking at them these days, uh A lot too interesting and its actual relevancy to what you're talking about, right? Well, yeah, because this is all under the guise of like tropes, I guess because people say it are pausing the videotrope Yep Same old same old I want this video just for its music to just be fringy going Oh my god, should that be a um, should that be the next gadel background music fringy doing that? I could I could probably come one. Yeah, just record it for like a fella 30 seconds and then we can just loop it One Well now that you've thrown that out, that's definitely what's gonna be happening. I feel like all of chat. Well, yeah, there they go I'll have to let myself know where I found so this does this song have a name does anyone know Just maybe it's in the description of the video it could be from like a youtube library or something You never know I guess it is the uh, yeah, I wonder if anyone in chat knows the song name Sheaming weasel, uh, that's what scheming weasel. Sheaming scheming weasel I hate it. Is is that a that weasel is gonna sheam I hate it when my weasel's sheam Is there anything I would heaming weasel? That's the thing I would say The sheaming with what were you thinking weasel? Did you think it was like a tavern? You hadn't seen before or something. Why would you say? I don't know how I mistook sheaming and scheming I'll get a dive bar the sheaming weasel. It's very early. All right, let's be gentle be gentle Sheaming his machinations yes Hey, you should put that in godel sheaming Sheaming Oh, you think I haven't already there's a tight space.  There's four of them.  We come out how many can you remember? Get your beef at pingo card Their momentous occasions both in story and out because the character dead which is obviously a bummer on its own But it also means the total loss of all future potential for a given character All there you say that that's not true. That's not true That's just flat out. Not true. I don't know if you'll try to be more funny there But I was I was specifically thinking about, you know ghosts resurrections They've left shapes and stuff behind or they've left messages or they've given instructions Like the impact of that character isn't gone when they die necessarily They get obi-wan. Yeah, I like I don't think I don't even know what he said. I was listening to the music because we were talking about it for so long She she said that what a character dies their impact is gone and it's like no No, that that's what it starts. That's that's that's that is I think she was saying like their ability to I think the I mean they can't do any more or what she said is that they can't do anything else Oh for sure, but it also isn't true. Yeah, which is also not true But even if they can't you could have a character who just keeps getting referenced and talked about that's dark Yeah, the idea being that their presence is still there even if they themselves are gone Like who they are Or just a die is the easy part.  He came back as a spooky ghost Yeah, he did the face laser so Listen, if infinititisms have taught us anything, it's that this video is wrong Obviously a bummer on its own But it also means the total loss of all future potential for a given character All their arcs dynamics relationships everything all lost in exchange. No, that's just wrong, but that's fine Now most authors recognize hefty loss for their story so they make damn sure the Also, not true either the one-shot gut punch. Uh, someone could have a slow lingering death. Yep Um, if you have a character who's who succumbs to an illness if that illness is a prolonged affair That can wear down on a character over time There is a there is a current reference that I can't use Joker exactly um Uh, you could you could argue the father a film is just he's deteriorating until he's gonna die. Oh, yeah. Yeah. Yeah, absolutely The entire story is just a portion of his transition from life to death pretty much Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm or that knight in montipython that gets his arms and legs cut off Last night its impact hasn't stopped just yet Oh, yeah, so eventually walter whites like I mean I guess so yeah because that's that's a The impact of that news as well, you know, yeah Recognize that this is a hefty loss for their stories Sure, the impact is worth the price true non fake out main character deaths are often heroic sacrifices protracted tragedies Or carefully woven resolutions to their arcs after all the loose ends have been tied up They're usually given time and narrative weight to reflect this cost The surviving characters will process their grief reflect on what the loss means to them and are often fundamentally changed by the experience Agreed with all of that Yeah, yeah, fair enough Maybe carrying on their legacy setting off on a lengthy quest showing their layered and complex life as a personal inspiration to guide Their way forward. This is not that trope Fridging is the cute shortened form of the full name of this trope stuffed in the fridge named for a now infamous issue of A green lantern comic where green lantern kyle reiner's girlfriend is murdered by the villain major force and stuff I guess it is. I don't know I've not read it. I don't know if it's like bad But like stuffing a person in a fridge doesn't you know to me.  Like I don't know Yeah, good. Yeah Fridge for him to find when he gets home fridging is the very set of character deaths Where in a character is unceremoniously and brutally killed specifically and solely for the narrative purpose of hurting another Well, I didn't know it had to be brutal It was it's weird that she said that instead of just saying Because the important part I thought that what she was going to say was just that it's done specifically to make a character A bit more about so it's like however they die isn't relevant. Is it like if it's brutal or not if they just Yeah, what if it's like a cancer or a you know something like that I was actually about to say what is a non brutal death because brutal can be used to You know for chopping them up into tiny pieces or shot through the head like someone could call both of those brutal. So I'm just like Um, yeah, I guess a non brutal death would be like a Like passing away in your sleep, you know, yeah Which could happen to motivate a character to do xyz so like you I assume the brutality of the death is irrelevant Right, I would assume it's irrelevant as well That's my I think it's odd that that was brought up as a prerequisite for fridgery So is it possible to not have a brutal death at the hands of another person? Is it make it so they could inject you with something and you just slowly pass away or something? Yeah, I guess I mean it would be weird to describe that as brutal, but I guess someone might I don't know mm-hmm Brutally killed specifically and solely for the narrative purpose of hurting another more important character This motivation can be watsonian or doilist as an in-universe villain motivation or out of universe authorial intent In watsonian cases the killer is specifically motivated to kill the fridgy because it'll hurt the character who cares about them In doilist cases the killer might have all kinds of personal reasons to want to unceremoniously brutalize All right a character death that happens only to upset a more important character fridges or plant vices Don't get some experience there gravitas as a major character death would be given I think there's just an omen of practices If they die and then like that's the break in the story that causes the whole thing to happen that that's like significant Because a character can die unceremoniously, but that could have incredible impact to other people This is where we're going to get into a big problem Like you think about like in tarantino films one of like the big things in those is that characters just die Like the main characters will just die instantly Like unceremoniously because they don't spend much time on and they'll just die Is that bad? Pulp fiction is that what you're thinking of there? I guess that's probably the clearest example, right? It's like, yeah, he's there and then he's dead Like just like that and and that's it Well, um, yeah, because I don't need to justify it But like what was really cool about that is that we had him as pov for a while Then we switched to a different pov and that character is now completely unimportant to This new pov if you know what I mean, and so he can just be wiped out like any other thug Yeah, and and that's just um One of the reasons why that's like that's just I think that stories could honestly stand to have more unceremonious deaths rather than less I think that um Because people do just die like sometimes it happens and it's quick and it's sudden And like it, you know, there's there's not much of a reason for it. Oh, man. I just shot Marvin in the face It's more often than not that when there is like a death in a story that it is super important Then it gets a lot of focus and it gets um, you know And everybody's really sad or it happens really slow or they get to die really slowly whereas not important characters get shot in the head or something um Like that that is more of a thing that happens than characters I guess we'll have to see where where this argument goes Well, Quentin Tarantino does a good job of making sure all his characters in his films are properly motivated So if one person kills another person you usually understand why they were killed even if there's not much to it Like if if they're at least motivated to kill that person you'd be like, okay, he's dead now. I get it That's fine. Like I agree with this uh girl's first point here like a character death that happens only to upset If it's only too upset and that's it and that's the only element going into the screenplay to like To to make somebody kill someone else and it's not even motivated by character. It's just to like make things happen That's dumb. What is the villain's motive? um Well, hopefully there would be an extra layer to it Then just that if like because it should tie into the theme somehow I mean not not in every case like in in some key moment where like the main character is affected at the end of act two Or something. There's a death involved in that low point. Let's just call the opening of the film Villain needs hero to be angry and try and attack him in order to he's going to frame him for something He's like, how do we do it?  Whatever And that that happens off screen because we're doing like I said the villain pov So it just it would it would satisfy this definition And I don't know that we can just say oh well, that's bad It's like is it? right um because I was thinking about daredevil season two Uh, we see punisher in his like prime and then we find out later that like people were killed in in particular circumstances I don't know that we ever learn The meaningful relationship he had with his family, you know beyond sort of in in that show anyway In that show you don't know and so like I don't consider that bad And if someone said yeah, but they died just to motivate him to be to be this punisher character that everyone wants to see and I should be like, okay, but Is that bad? Or is it just neutral and like whether I guess into good or bad becomes a matter of execution specifically Because if someone said like, yeah, well, you still do find out bits and bobs about them and stuff And I'd be like, yeah, so I guess what makes it What crosses the line, you know, how how much information do you need to know about these characters that died before they get for it to be okay? um So to say it only happens to motivate a more important character. I should be like, I mean, yeah, that could work. I think um Some people are referencing uncle ben does that do you think that qualifies? The character death that only happens to motivate a more important character It's like to a degree and I you know, I think the uncle ben stuff is pretty damn good when it's executed. Well Well, here's one urskine is that fridging urskine because he dies specifically to motivate caps in america I imagine cap was motivated regardless, but it definitely But like yeah urskine death is specifically to to like instill fun a core like thing for him, right? I guess But then somebody would be like well urskine's death means there's no super soldier serum So it's like there was another reason for it Hmm That's well uncle ben's death is symbolic of the fact that spider-man had the capacity to do something and he didn't because he acted Selfishly, okay, that that was a real real meaningful And so what I would say but like, you know like the punisher one If all we ever knew about the people who died in his life that motivated him to become who he was Was that they were killed by a criminal who was set free after a certain amount of time and therefore matches punishers sort of perspective Is that enough To say that it now qualifies not as fridging right um Because I agree the uncle ben's death is supposed to relate thematically to the entire point of spider-man's Journeys like all of them to responsibility, but Um, you could still say it's still a death that motivates spider-man to do xyz Right Yeah, I guess the the lesson in the case of the punisher isn't So obvious or there's not really much to it other than my loved ones are gone. I'm going to make the criminals pay Um, but I don't think it's necessarily bad if it's shallow Um, I guess I guess that would be the thing is like even even if it's flat And and I guess at that point it's like so could you do it better? It's like, yeah, probably sure. I guess it's just um Bad Like at that point because if this is bad So a character death that happens only to upset a more important character it's like I I guess I I want to know what only means because if it means it can't have if it has nothing to do with the theme Then it's fridging and I should be like man. It does feel like that's an easy escape hatch All I have to do is make it like Um, you know like low keys someone reference low keys death and in infinity wall If someone said that's fridging and I go well, no, it's on theme because low key sacrificed himself In a sense to try and rescue Thor which is something that everyone's doing in that film They're giving up their lives and the stones in order to save individuals when the whole world is at stake And it's just it's a commentary on human nature and stuff Um, does that then make it not fridging? Some people are referencing Batman's parents. It's like were they fridged and it's like well thematically again Like it's all about uh crime and and what I could do to a person. I guess I It's a little bit complicated At that point could you develop a thematic through line for any example if you really wanted to Like even even the green lantern one is there something in the store? It's like, ah, see You know loved ones die and that that changes you that's the theme gotcha. So it wasn't it wasn't purposeless You know like so what you've seen Vincent from I am at one. It's Jensen not Vincent Jensen not Vincent Vincent he looks like a Vincent. I get but again if you if you looked at like Jensen you could just say um But like he helped build the suit so like there there is a there was a broader world impact that Jensen had Yeah, I guess that's he gives us. It's a very hard motivation in in a sentence, right? Like Yeah, sure. I I'll uh, even even if you I guess that's the thing is like it's very uncommon that you will have a person who exists in like reality Who will only affect one person? Um, or will only have relevance to one person In in a story like you could always find. Yeah I guess that's a problem with these like This particular definition is you're trying to figure i'm just trying to figure out ways that it breaks. It feels like there are a lot um Because like look don't get the same exploration death or gravitas as a major character death would be given It's like if a death of a character creates the story Does it not have much more gravitas than the death of the main character right at the end? Like the whole story doesn't happen without that. So is that it is odd that A part of this is they don't get the same gravitas as a major character. It's like that sounds categorical Yeah, if they are major they'll get a death that has more gravitas because and I guess here's the thing like given by whom Like what the gravitas by whom the story by the rito by who? Like who is the who is the what what do you mean when you say gravitas? Mm-hmm. I mean surely not every character Can be given not just for time and time constraints, but not every character's in there and their demise However, that may be is going to be given the same Yeah, I feel well. I mean now. I'm just thinking like here's one for you saving private ryan Did did ryan's brothers get fridge? Because they die specifically to kick off the plot to plot. Yeah. Yeah Yeah, and like each of the members of the Yeah, each of their deaths last Longer and shorter not only based on how important they are but just the poignancy of their death in the storyline as well It's it's complicated Yeah, because I mean Because could you would you say like there is more gravitas given to uh wade's death compared to um Jackson because jackson just gets blown up in the in the church tower But but then it's like well, what do you mean gravitas because there's a difference wade's death is like really protracted and really sad It's just really really sad Whereas like jackson gets this crazy heroic last stand In the tower and then we get extra elements of his character the fact that he yells to the other guy to get out Because he's more concerned about him than his own life and it's like well, what is gravitas really?   You kind of can't do that Um, does that mean that this story is like Would we be saying that it's bad that like we have characters who um Because because one of the interesting things is like if you pan closer attention like saving private ryan There are characters who are like important in world who die in that sequence and you wouldn't know it because they just die and then that's it um Is that bad because that would have happened because in reality You're not a protagonist in reality.  I'm What do you mean with we've only talked about it for like 10 minutes Well, I I don't care if we talk about this for 10 hours.  We're talking about character deaths Do you know how important those are to storytelling? And and you know what when you're working on your story, you'd want to think about it as much or more like She really should Yeah, yeah, I'm I'm not a fan of her second fridging point because the implication seems to be that uh Like if if every death isn't treated with the same level of gravitas, then it's fridging This kind of reminds me of when we were talking about the orcs And like the representation of orcs and how it's like racist because they're always like evil Whatever that means, yeah Yeah, but it's this idea that every character needs to be like equally complex. Otherwise, it's racist because you're you're Prioritizing one character or a group of characters over another and uh, that's yeah The the the just just just one sec just just one sec sorry got two or three people already saying She gets into this for fuck's sake stop like let her speak like Welcome new viewer Maybe you're new here. No, no, no, no John like this happens every time we cover a Like content creator. They don't know that that's not how we do things here. We um, right We listen and say for example, she says everything on this list that you're seeing right now is bullshit We'll be like, oh, okay, cool That's that's what we'll say, but if she doesn't that just continue So yeah, welcome to eFap new viewers. Lovely to see you. We're gonna be talking about fridging today. Um And we're right now. We're just regarding these three points. She's got on this little slide that we're able to look at Uh Sorry, yeah go right ahead Yeah, the the point where a death bothers me and I think it would become fridging Is when I don't understand why somebody died or like usually it's a handsome another person And I don't understand why that person killed The other person like in the case of this green lantern fridge thing. I'm curious about the context of it like, you know, maybe uh If it was some kind of ice themed villain You know who like stuffs the the the girl in the fridge and like I wonder if there's something that happened Before this beat that kind of contextualized it makes it a little bit meaningful other than just like, ha I'm a bad guy and I killed someone close to you even though.  There are a couple of John Wick clones now already And uh, I think that if we were all watching a movie And there's this character who's got a history of violence, but they've got a loving family and everything's great And like they have scenes that are just so poorly put together. It's like hello husband. Isn't it great? How happy we are. Hello child. Yes.   Yep two days from retirement. Uh, just christen the boat.  I'm not gonna make it. Don't don't talk crazy It's like just do one thing for me get man doza and McBain screaming to the app Doza Like that's a good article as well I don't want to hear McBain that that Kennedy yours is against regulations in this department. We don't buy the book Buy book. Sorry. I'll stop So the uh, yeah, the thing to come away with is We the this could have happened to us. We would see that shitty movie that I reference whatever it may be And we see like four of them in a row and then we go, you know what? This is a trope and this is bad and this is how it's qualified and then you accidentally include things that are actually fucking excellent Yeah, yeah, that seems to be how this this has happened Yeah, uh That last point I just realized all the things I had to say you you all mentioned while I was waiting for a gap for me to talk So I have nothing to add The third point is mostly afflicts secondary characters or characters that writer considers broadly unimportant to the story She said well Deaths that counters fritting mostly happen to non-main characters. It's just like yeah Well, so we're running into a few problems broadly unimportant if you kick off the plot you are very important Yeah, I was about to say that's the part that sticks out to me is almost like you you even highlighted it in red But that's kind of a contradiction to the whole point of fridging. Yeah, the whole point is that they are very important as a massive plot device Yeah, I do agree. No generally happens to secondary characters But that's just generality if we're being as kind as possible. Maybe she means excluding that portion of them They don't have any importance other than that Well, yeah, I guess excluding this extremely necessary important thing. Yes And I guess uh, also we need to figure out what our definitions of secondary are because Those definitions can vary because I would say that a villain is not secondary for the most part Like if like if you've got your primary characters, that's like your hero your villain Probably your judo dragon or something. There may be one more person then secondary is like the one below that Well, let's take um, let's on that note. Let's take a new hope You have uh, luke's parents potentially Luke's parents get fried up And you also have obi one So it can be both of them get killed to motivate luke true. Absolutely. Yeah, was alderaan fridged I don't know That's one she's thinking about because yeah, by the way, someone said that's what she means It's like so why didn't she write that? Why didn't she see it? So I'm not I'm no mind reader Uh But if if it's important see here's thing. I use a whiteboard in my videos now More of those coming soon. That's why they spend it the way. However Uh, that's that's what I really make sure that what goes on that whiteboard what I am highlighting Textually that I'm saying is it's doubly accurate Uh, if if you're gonna if you're gonna bring it up in this manner, it had better be Accurate if that's not what you mean Don't fucking put it on the whiteboard and highlight it as important because it's not only on the whiteboard It is in red as opposed to black text Which means it's extra important I think if a writer writes a story and they consider one or more of their characters is broadly Unimportant then maybe they made a mistake and that character shouldn't be there because like You don't put a character in a story unless they serve some role like they should all be important It's just they're they are of varying degrees of importance. Do you have an important character?  We didn't even know it that much, but he's just like shocked and distraught And like does this if someone was like We didn't even know her fridging. I'm just like, well, wait, I don't even we don't even know this is going yet like I don't know.   I'm just gonna go home. It's like that's not how that works like this There's still a reaction you have to that kind of thing I think it's still relatable if some some character Reacts to this even if it's a secondary character that's unimportant to the story Which he then is not anymore because the character does do something about it. I guess Yeah It kind of reminds me that movie half baked where there's that that guy who like a roommate Who's just like constantly sleeps on the couch. He's always in the background He'll only like occasionally ever chime in on in some scenes and like I think he does have a role in the story At some point, but it's just like Just an unimportant background character. It's like, why is he even there? Like just get rid of him like they should all every character should like there's a reason for everything Being in a story every single element not just characters Um someone mentioned the girlfriend in the boys was fridged now. You talk about season one or two Because she technically dies twice in a sense um First death if we're talking about that it's we finally find out. Why is butcher doing everything that he's doing? He says his wife was raped and killed presumably by a homelander And like that for me when I was first watching it I don't need to know the relationship between butcher and his wife to know why he's motivated now And if someone said yeah, but that's fridging. I'd be like, I don't I don't know why I have to know Why is that a bad thing? Why do I have to know her exactly? I understand this person That just I think that's because I wonder if we're gonna talk about it in this video Like if it's gonna get brought up It's worthwhile to consider why it's such a common storytelling device to have somebody that a person cares about Diet and that motivate them like I Everyone's saying it's huge girlfriend. So there's more with his than with butchers in season one You get you get more they we get to see them together Yeah, they have scenes together whereas we have no we we have like we only get scenes In the flashbacks with uh butcher's wife People like not butchers like well butcher would be worse by this definition. So why aren't we talking about that one?   Okay. I'm good. Well. What's going on in chat right now? What's what's happening here? because Yeah, Huey's uh, I love that one. I think it's great like these two normal people who just have a relationship the speeds to uh, which is something that Surprised me about the first episode. So it's just like yeah, that probably would happen eventually in a world of superheroes that shit's gonna happen It's horrifying if someone yeah, but she didn't really have a strong character. She's like, I don't know why she has to I don't know why That can't be the the exciting incident that we We have a whole story where like a whole episode where we spend with them and then it ends like that Is that necessarily better? Just because it's fridging doesn't mean it's bad. I'm pretty sure the whole point being made here is you shouldn't fridge And if people are saying you shouldn't do something like I don't know You got a lot of work ahead of you. Yeah I think the sentence you shouldn't fridge sounds funny to me. I don't know why Don't put stuff in the fridge Don't fridge you guys But it just got groceries. Let me get some help Label of fridgeed himself I wonder Author's motivation in killing the character is only to make the Character upset the only narrative role this death plays in story is hurting a different character and it's still framed as unceremonious and brisk fridging almost Not necessarily. I mean we've already disagreed with basically all of your points. So we'll just keep going Those are bad points moving on ways refers to character deaths But sometimes the character is instead subjected to some kind of horrible torture or fate worse than death with the victim survives But it's very badly hurt mentally and or physically focus is still on anyone but the victim Right, so the idea would be like you I don't know you have like some guys like my wife, you know Yeah, or like she you know something bad happened or she's like basically got PTSD and we don't focus on her at all I guess the problem is it's like I would prefer that you would actually give her something but is it necessarily Can you necessarily not tell a story where you don't focus, you know Well, let's go with a coma example. I don't know if I just want to watch someone line. Yeah Line in a coma. Yeah Well, I guess the thing is what if we had it where it was different and she's just like She's just got trauma like meant she's uh, she's not in a good place mentally And then we just go and follow our main hero man And we like don't see her until the end you could make that really meaningful in the the hero does all this stuff To rectify the situation without realizing that being being with her was the thing he should have done Yes, I was about to say what a grim ending that he like gets revenge.  Yes. No, that's right tropes can be an opportunity Um, yeah, those people are just referencing all kinds of media right now asking if this couch is bridging And it's like this is what this conversation does. It's just confusing now Yeah, bridging everywhere Because he got no and she's like, please just call an ambulance It's a fridging epidemic in media Same overall impact the character that really people say did I just describe physique? So I've already seen season one. I don't think that's happened at it. So I might be just I don't know what I wasn't referencing that specifically, but if that's what happens in it than neat That isn't the one targeted for the horror But the hero who's in the fridges personal reaction to their awful situation is usually glossed over in favor of how much that Focus character suffers by proxy because of reasons fridging. Well, if they're the protagonist, exactly We're gonna be focusing So I already see I already see something I disagree with female characters often secondary supporting roles. I is that Is that true or is that in specific? Well, so we got two things is that bad but But but broadly the thing I find more disagreeable is that true because I'm pretty sure it's not like I'm pretty sure that if you put all stories together That like that that that it would balance out and that Yeah, um Are you doing the thing that a lot of people do when they talk about video games most Protagonists and males like well most games don't have protagonists Most games do not have a protagonist like most of them is just you Like you're interfacing with a puzzle or like you're in a forex strategy game and you're like the grand Like this feels to me like female characters are more often secondary in speculative fiction or like in action stories Or something like that. Is this true? What if we included like all the stories like there are so many books Like there are so many books that just feel like the shows where the protagonist is female I I just don't know that I even agree with this the like female characters are often secondary This feels to me like you're just reading in a genre where that's more often the case and you're not thinking about all stories Yeah, I am yeah, I I could not hazard a guess. Um, if that's actually true or not Yeah, I don't know really because I'm thinking like well a lot of characters That are driven by action from characters necessarily might be more likely to be male Especially if we go back to like including stories from as early as they started but at the same time Yeah, I guess but we've got a lot of female centric stories as well So Talk about narratively disposable I don't think you'll find anyone fitting that role more so than the average guy in the background thugs soldiers They all just get wiped out and no one gives a fuck Practically every mook is a guy Well, I mean, I mean we'll just do the common one in action stories and games and stuff You're shooting guys Easily I remember when you kill let me tell you I distinctly remember when I played black ops 3's campaign and they were like women soldiers And then you shot them and then you hear a woman yell out. I was like, wait, what like that was That was Well, I guess that's what yeah Black widow right all of the female foot soldiers for drake of are considered these these victims that we have to rescue All of the men are wiped out.  Yeah, and that's that's a common one. Give make the men faceless and you kill them Oh, yeah, you know in the beginning was like dude I remember when like the controversy in Grand Theft Auto 5 when they were talking about like Oh, you know women and stuff.  We're literally on it. Oh no, not even but we're on it right now Even if that was true. Yeah. Um, and someone said that was very characters are more narratively disposable So that was deliberate in Black Widow as if that's a counter. It's like it's not deliberate They tell us that the widows are mind controlled.  That's not deliberate. That's an accident from the shitty writing. They didn't realize they were like no I just foot soldiers guys. Don't worry about them. I don't know Because that's normal. It's normal to have men in the background and get shot because no one cares Oh, absolutely. If if you want to look at movies like I don't know like the league of extraordinary gentleman, right You have all of the crew of the nautilus their men A lot of them die you have all of the baddies in the helmets. They're all dudes and they all die.   Well, she's yeah, okay. Wow. Oh, no, which I guess that maybe that opens another interesting Can of worms there though, if doesn't it yeah, no Should that be the way that it is is that the way that it is for a reason and does that inform these tropes too as a sort of Counterbalance, yeah Right and as and when we talk about like the whole female characters are often in secondary blah, blah, blah, blah Um, so first of all, we we we don't even know if that's true. If I don't know that's true That would be which I'm not yeah, I'm definitely not ready to make that claim Are you implying that if it was the other way around it would be better? I think does it need to be even oh just she wanted to even well the idea is she's explaining How we got here non maliciously I guess because she's saying secondary characters are more disposable Okay, female characters are often secondary characters. So she's like these are the reasons why we ended up here You know lots of women in fridges, but I uh, I don't know the I think it's going to be a little bit more complicated than that and I do wonder Doesn't that expose that it shouldn't even be about women? It should be about characters that this happens to secondary characters. Can we not fridge secondary characters? I guess you're blocking out a lot of Like flaws in in in writing that because if someone's like well, I did it to a guy. So whatever it's like well I mean, isn't the point that you shouldn't do it to a character. It doesn't matter if they're a girl or a guy Well, surely if we're if I if if the problem is killing secondary characters only to push the main character forward Then it should be an egalitarian thing. Yeah, don't kill people to propel the main character forward in general overall period Yeah, it's not worse because it's one gender over the other. It's about what it what's the point with the context of the story right Um, this this keeps overlapping. We want to go ahead go ahead This keeps overlapping with the orc thing for me Like extra as extra credits problems seem to be that it's an issue that movies are focused in one particular direction on one particular Character and it's bad that every character in the movie isn't treated with equal focus And complexity. It's like well the story's not about them Like sorry like movies are about like Individuals well not every movie but like you see it on a lot of posters, right? You got the big guy in the middle or the woman like the big head face genders doesn't matter right as characters, right? You got a big character in the middle And then you got a bunch of secondary characters surrounding them that are kind of smaller in the poster and that kind of Encapsulates the story right where it's telling you here's the character we're focusing on And the reason we're doing that is to make a more central point clear Like are we supposed like in the the latest halloween movie? Like every one of like michael's victims that survives or something are we supposed to then follow them? And we have an entire sequence about them dealing with their trauma And like you could do that infinitely, you know, like it's not about exactly that That's kind of the thing is stories. There is a limited amount of space in a story Yeah, and you need to make decisions about who you're gonna focus on and You know just in general when it comes to like people and uh and like, you know Stories usually In fact, you could say almost ubiquitously have a main character the person who is the most important Like the one who it is about Um, and and of course, you know, like stories will a lot of stories have like two characters who are Basically the main characters like wallace and grommet are both the main character And if uh, but then again, you could argue that grommet is really the main character In terms of like his role in the narrative. I guess that's that's where part I guess interesting to think about Defining a protagonist sort of thing.  Yeah Right, or uh, or I can't believe I'm mad or Manuel Like these are all main characters. I guess that's that's the point, right? It's like where you draw the line in terms of significance or importance and how much focus you should be giving to somebody It's it's vague. It can be difficult to figure out um Which is why I find these sort of very prescriptive writing rules to be restrictive and I don't know Yeah, well, let's be you know, maybe she's got a point that we're leading up to and so we're gonna make sense Well, yeah, I mean depending on if this idea is that you need to stop doing this you're gonna have to come up with an alternative Yeah, and you're gonna have to come up with a lot of alternatives because fridging is very common This little book. This is Aristotle on it Does she it just has our why it's just Well, it's it's it's about Aristotle by Aristotle Yes One word just It's too blurry for me, uh Here I can I can go to the main video. Yeah, I don't I don't think watch together does 1080. It like reduces it Also, why is there like a white outline around the black outline on the uh, Character complete works of Shakespeare. I think Yeah Ah, okay. I got that Can I scroll before the the Odyssey the Aeneid that's I I can't pronounce that one correctly in the iliad Yeah, so we've got Machiavelli Just Machiavelli That's not what library. It's called the prince, but okay That's what is actually maybe well, maybe he wrote other, you know, he wrote a autobiography called Machiavelli Maybe he did it.  Hold on. What this one says library library stacking for dummies And the the pit and the no The yeah the one on its side on the third or on the second row I can't or the second shelf. I can't quite in the third one either. I can't make that one out Or the little ones. Yeah, I look at the books and yes. Yeah Okay Yeah, it's weird that a lot many of them are about the some of the smaller ones have texts and some of the bigger ones don't Yeah, yeah, what's with the blue one being blank? I want to know what the blue one on the bottom right is come on Oh, that's uh, it's mark twain. Oh, right Disproportionately affects female characters often barely developed mons or love interests Who's only salient character traits are the hero likes them? So when they're brutalized or murdered often off No, usually that's right. They're like just a really good person. There's a normal good person. I have very thin but fine I still don't know that I would complain at that point.  There's no You can see right through it.   So Well, I could like you would not even know you and you might not even want attributes Not what other people think of you. Yeah, I suppose someone could say you are you are likable. That's one of your traits Yeah, yeah, that's different from what she said though Okay, so now I'm getting a little bit annoyed because I feel like I should pause every time she brings up a new screen to read it first Would it hit the same if it happened off screen is the only audience impact how much subsets the character when they find out But I you've just highlighted a point in favor of like Yeah, I think this is the options that you have this attacks her point overall because is it bad for that to happen if someone dies off screen Do you know who died off screen?  What I'm saying is you don't even see the person at all ever Oh Uncle Ben and uh And spider-man homecoming war Civil war. I don't know. I mean to a degree. Okay. I just you know, my example is going to be Owen from Blymanna We all have examples. Yeah We're at uh, oh and from from what sorry Blymanna. Um his mom. Oh, okay. He talks about her a lot in the story And at one point she dies and it's done through a phone call and we never actually see her or anything. It's just like Damn Yeah, it hits really hard and so the law the logic of would it have been the same hit if it happened off screen I was like, I don't even know what you think you're proving with this Well, yeah, because deaths can happen on screen that are pretty like it's just like, okay But then you can have a death that happens off screen But because of the writing surrounding it it's just way more impactful Whether it happens on or off screen should not be determining your level of empathy necessarily It depends on the quality of the writing Mm-hmm. Yeah None of you getting the point of this video. This is like addressing individual points. It's like you're missing the overall point This happens every time we cover somebody for the first time or like whenever I remember specifically high top Let him finish his points on homecoming. It's like man.  He's also in cloud territory now Um, it's silly boy And it's interesting to me because they do the whole you know, you're missing the forest for the trees It's like, you know what a forest is made of the forest.   I I like that one now. It's like look at this forest It's like but the trees were rotting and they're like falling down and they're just They're bleeding the trees are bleeding. You're missing the forest though. Oh, yeah Also random commenter feel free to let us know what the point it is that we're missing Instead of just saying we're missing the point Clearly you think that we don't know what the point is and you it would be helpful Yeah, you clearly know something that we do not know I would love to be imparted by uh with this knowledge that you have Please tell us the point that we are missing I'm very curious. They're not sure they're not sure if she's saying it's a bad thing. So Uh, she's saying to the trope talk like avoid this trope is the idea And then if you give us whether or not she even says it's good or bad That wouldn't change what our commentary. Yeah, you're still making a lot of statements about And also you have made statements about like shallow and and then stuff like yeah, our main conversations are about how her Um requirements are gonna make her have false positives Because we can't we already agreed that fridging is a thing We just don't think that she's done a very good job of identifying it Like the especially like this this I say especially it's kind of been throughout But you know would it hit the same if it happened off-screen? It's like that's not a good way to test this Mm-hmm And if she has some redeeming point at the end that ties all this together Maybe she should have opened with that to sort of frame the whole argument And then it's like like here's what I think but now let me like here's some let me offer some counter points Yeah But we can either do this where we dive into each point individually and keep pausing it or we can watch the entire video in its duration without pausing and then forget all the fucking points that we're talked about And then the whole discussion is a mess. So like which one do you want, you know?   So But they're both terrible Because she's saying like would it hit the same? It's like probably not because seeing people die Like that usually hits a little harder than seeing their grave But it depends because oh and his mom like that one hits harder then Yeah, like some onscreen ones because we have the Establishing elements and all that backstory and stuff Oh, that's actually yeah, it's a great example. Someone mentioned to John Aaron in Game of Thrones He's technically speaking the death that starts the show. He's the king's hand and when he dies It means that Ned Stark would be next to become the king's hand and him becoming the king's hand Is something many factions do not want Um, right and we find out John Aaron was killed eventually The idea is John Aaron's death motivates a whole bunch of things to happen and it's like We never even really find out much about him in the show. I don't think we get a couple of lines from a couple people about his life But like it's that would qualify. I'm pretty sure it's fridging But like if someone said oh, so I shouldn't do it. I'd be like no no Like no, I don't I don't know why we're taking that away Character death constitutes fridging or not if it could happen in offscreen and have just as much impact on the story Especially if it does happen offscreen. It's probably fridging. It's only oh god. What useless information it's probably fridging like So might not be why would it potentially not be we need to now I guess Because if I said like if the character dies It might be fridging, you know, like so we need more than that. So how do I know? Yeah, how do I know if it is or not? Yeah, the impact is how it bums out the more important characters with no exploration of how it affects the character Actually being brutalized or killed. So we are saying Uncle Owen and I am blue are fridging. Yeah Okay All right. Um, I understand that they shouldn't have been fridged that that was bad that they were fridged Presumably or I I assume they I sit there. It's like so how do we how do we do the story of Luke? Initially rejects the cold or you know adventure and then there he is motivated to do it Like what would be the thing his home is the whole point is that there is yeah The whole idea is there is an oppressive empire that is you know killing people and hurting people How do you? Oh, no, it's oppressive stop it. Um, but like how What what do you what do your options become then to motivate him? In terms of like fighting against this particular empire that is evil and like kills people who get in their way Um, what what how do we propel him without hurting other people? Um, unless would the idea be hurt him Instead and then that motivates him, but then you could be like well wait So he only cares when it affects him personally Like him personally Well, I was gonna say you can easily make the thematic argument for them their deaths They're a microcosm of the the damage the empire is doing to the universe Yeah, exactly. Yeah, so in that sense, it's not fridging because they're representative of other people more. Um, I suppose Uh, they're not I don't think they're even mentioned by name ever after that scene I don't think so. No, so maybe The original film could be tweaked name afterward. Yeah. Yeah, because if you remember when when obi-wan dies luke is like pretty depressed in In the ship afterward and then of course that gets obi-wan has mentioned many times because it was so influential And it's just like, yeah, you know luke spent his whole life with our bro and Uncle Owen, so you think that maybe they should get some more lines at the same time I don't know that they qualify as being fridged. I don't know. I don't think so I don't know I'm not certain if she's saying if she's uh, saying that this scene from star wars is an off-screen death I wouldn't constitute this as an off-screen death because I mean, are we supposed to see like his parents flaming skulls? I don't know Holding on it gratuitously like I don't think we need just either Well, we don't need to see it. I would still consider it an off-screen death if you discovering corpse afterwards Yeah, it is it is an off-screen death. We see an on-screen corpse. What's being identified is We this was a time where we we don't need to see them get flamethrowered, right? Like with That would be like because she's almost saying yeah, we don't see it's off-screen. I'm like, yeah, it is off. Yeah I don't know if this should have been on screen The there is no way There's an argument to be made about what exactly is an off-screen death But I just I think there's a difference between this and say Luke just being told Yeah, so you mean seeing the body Versus being the dead They're seeing their their bodies. I don't know if he sees the bodies, but he knows they're dead. He does he does things right He says it's left of them. Yeah. Yeah, definitely a difference.  Oh They I they died in their sleep. It's really tragic. Um The empire did it Yeah, I'm part of it Can imagine Obi-Wan did it and he's like, oh my god, look what the empire did.  I don't you to a character. No, it isn't absolutely What you can't do it.    You know, Thanos snaps away half of the universe.     Yes Yeah, what if the point is that they died offscreen and like the character wasn't there Yeah, exactly or you're just living your life and you're really happy And then it's just like, oh, somebody, you know, just yeah, sorry. It was an accident something happened And then that's like the point So I said, yeah, Bambi's mom died offscreen. That's right. No country for me I'm not gonna say anything more specific than that. All right, because I haven't seen it The younglings got Some sometimes the appropriate thing is to let the audience fill in the gaps in their head Right where you show them one shot and another shot and it's like, okay I I can visualize what the death probably was. It's not good. I don't need to well There was an example in the show that you made kind of isn't there Of an offscreen death Which in a certain sense, I'm not sure what exactly you're referring to. Well, you don't see it happen You hear it, but you don't see it. Oh, I see. Yeah, right. Yeah, right.  I would argue it makes me more powerful without. Yeah, exactly So what's it? Bambi's mom definitely ended up in a free Oh Nice I would say the the genre has something to say about whether or not you see those gory money shots You know, like if it's a grindhouse sort of movie Where like you want to see the guys some guys head explode Whatever, I mean, we just expect that in that genre Well, I mean we just watched squid game. I mean, there's countless examples of You know that happening. Oh, you're right headshots. Yeah And to clarify they've seen up to episode six or no spoiler in us, but yes With knowing what happens in episode six, I'm not going to say anything specific But anyone who does you know one of the very significant deaths is done while just showing a character's reaction not the actual event Yeah, in fact, we got a couple of those two of them at least.   It is it is off screen. Well, it is literally off screen I wonder if off screen refers to just uh, you have no context for any bit You're simply told by someone else that it happened and use a different definition Say something else to say off screen Yeah, no, I understand So a lot of people got fringed in titanic by that iceberg Dude imagine somebody when that happened jumped onto the iceberg to be like, this is probably safer, right?  Well, I guess you could put a book on a screen You could put a book on a screen and then it becomes all right. That's right. That's uh, yeah That's right. Saxon the books in mist have screens. It's very true Sirus and akinar.  Yes Wait, what are you writing down? All right, so There you go. I feel this isn't even representative of what they said in chat I just think it's a really funny quote if it's bad for someone to die on screen that all books are bad because nothing It happens on screen Brilliant I like it. Oh wait, so so did I off screen soda on screen there you go That's right off screen And if and if the if the idea is like this is taking it too literally The problem is that I think that if we actually have the conversation about what it means to be on or off screen We're gonna start disagreeing and at that point I'm probably gonna be frustrated with you for saying that it was taking it too literally because we will Absolutely will The how far you can take this though because if I go you're gonna want to only kill people who are like Developed like undead to the audience. Okay, this one could be like when I mean yeah, but Like no, there's only like, okay, you're taking it way too far He's not saying every single character has to be fully developed and you're like, no, no I'm taking what he said literally if I said it's better to have a character who's developed Die than non-developed die. Okay. That's my advice It's just like that's kind of useless actually because it's just there's so many circumstances that this Just you shouldn't have said anything to begin with You probably shouldn't get upset if somebody says but what if and then it fucks with what you just said That means that there's probably something there that needs reconciling in terms of your position Sounds like at this point. These videos are just designed to make you go. That's kind of true Yeah Yeah, which you know, that's uh, and if that changes the way that you approach writing stories It's like uh-oh like you could be diving down some rabbit holes.  I haven't given her enough development yet. You're like Yeah, that's yeah, totally What a penalty too I cannot kill this character until I give them all of this development.   This just seems to me There's such a weird restriction Remember, we're not a fan of restrictions. Here we have Yeah contrary to popular opinion. I know She's not saying that All right, well, you know what everything she says that we say that she says she didn't say We're just talking about a mystical other person with all these quotes. So don't worry about it No admission of tragedy the character becomes nothing more than a plot else's angst side character or not Nobody deserves that now the off-screen test isn't quite enough to say if a death is written or not See while fridging is intended solely to upset another character well-written character Wait, so are you saying this isn't fridging this one here castlevania? I don't know this one.  It's like dude that like that that you say that's fridging Well, we'll see I guess But she's saying it's well written. It's like wait, so here's the thing about fridging then This follows the rules of anime where if it's if it's done in an anime, it's all right Also, what was this slide this test isn't perfect this relates to the whole off-screen on-screen thing So no, I guess the dead character is too dead to experience complex consequences. So the survivors are always focused on longer So yeah, that's not always true, but that is generally true, but how do you get around that? That's yeah when you're alive you are conscious and you can experience things Yeah, you can you make a bit more impact on your environment Oh, she's saying these these are examples of how her point has floored in it basically Oh, I would say that that one on the left is like pretty fundamental if you're dead You can't experience anything anymore.  Yeah, unless you're a ghost Um And an on-screen death can be used to torment the main the more important character when is Still fridging if that's only framing I'm sorry while what word is that w h k and which is still which is still fridging. Oh, is it which? Oh, right? Okay. Yes Yeah, yeah Um an on-screen death can be used to torment the more important character Which is still fridging if That's it's only framing Okay, if that is it's only Um, okay. Yeah, I don't mean anything. Sure But like But what if I what if the is it is that meant to be like sephiroth or something there? He's got like long hair Right See while fridging is intended solely to upset another character well-written character deaths almost always upset the other characters too And since the character themselves is usually too dead to care most of the lingering well written character deaths Almost always upset everyone else too If you have a room full of blank characters and then I walk into it and shoot one of them in the head And then walk out that upsets all of them that upsets everybody Even if you don't know that person, you don't even know them. So they're not more written to you They're just a person who like again these yeah, that's what I was casually earlier. Yeah Casually said things. I'm just like but no though Yeah But do tell us how that we got that wrong and that wasn't what we said just Set the other characters too and since the character themselves is usually too dead to care Most of the lingering ramifications of their death only affect the other character character themselves. Sorry.  Yes definition the key difference is a fridging usually makes the other character briefly and shallowly While a solid character that makes the other character that was briefly and shallow. Wait, what? Wait, so a good death mix. Okay. Okay. So I'm just gonna do a story where I have Hi wife, and then she gets shot in the face and we spend the next 10 minutes with him grieving And then the story goes on from there. That's not fridging anymore Right because we saw I thought the whole point of why fridging is bad is that there is no focus on the person The person who was actually suffered. I thought that was a problem, right? But now she said that well if they grieve about it like the other characters if they Mentally anguish over it then that's good. I thought the whole point was that that's that it does Um getting very lost and the other problem is like for how long must they grieve What is the adequate amount of time to grieve? Yeah, and I'm not trying to do this like appeal to the the blurry line Or I'm literally just like no way But if if they like have a scene where they acknowledge and deal with it and that's it Is that is that not enough because it sounds like that's not enough people are like that Some people are like that. That's this it's just complicated as hell. Like I don't know that we can just um Because it sounds like she would say something like you know, it needs to go forward at least into another act Maybe she's like What about like if if the whole thing is now i'm thinking about 24 like season 3 It's kind of different but like at the end of that season jack bow just starts crying for like a minute After having saved the day and it's like, okay, so imagine. I don't know. We have a story where like main character's wife dies Well, his wife does die now But yeah, like main character's wife dies and he goes on his adventure and then right at the end He just breaks down into tears. Yeah And then Thor would be wondering why the more mainstream example, right in infinity war He's like, oh, yeah, of course Paul's not giving off an emotional reaction to a lot of stuff in ways that we might expect But then once he once everything's calm, we have to wait and he's so low and he's thinking about it It's like there it is Yeah So it's complicated, man Yeah If rince's a fridging usually makes the other characters upset Shallowly while a solid character death makes the other characters grieve Frequently fridged characters are never spoken of again. I was like, I'm pretty sure luke grieved over his parents dying, but She she's rather than ever referenced again. I just don't know that is that because it's it's such a like Like typically the punisher references his wife again So does he not count as fridging anymore that he often references as well? I was going to say you could reverse engineer this and we just have it be that they never actually Grieve but they do mention them by name like they died and this made me upset Well, this reminds me of a scene in the league of extraordinary gentleman Where we learned that alan quarter mains son was killed His son was fridged and his he does he he he doesn't like to Like have it mentioned To him and it's a it's an Like is that like he's fridged there But the way that it's brought up and his grieving for his son Is very it happens in certain circumstances You know depending on how it is brought up Not even a situation Yeah, so in that situation Is alan's alan corner mains son was he fridged or not? Oh, I got so many examples of coming into my head now of things And there is one thing about them is because the grand theft auto trilogy is getting remastered So we got a few examples I want to go through So in grand theft auto 3 when Claude gets shot by catalina in the chest And then that's like the whole motivations. He wants to get revenge on her for shooting him Would that be preferable to fridging because it happened to him personally And we and despite the fact that he never seems to express any clear feelings on like You know whether or not he's pissed off about that except he's trying to get revenge Is that preferable or is that a whole different problem? Yeah, because by this logic, we could fridge somebody and have a great story. So Yes Now we can have a story where we don't fridge somebody our main character gets shot And then he goes on this revenge story and there isn't like much to him at all Um, and then we're gonna do another one Um in vice city Lance's brother gets killed in the opening and that's like a big point for lance specifically Um, he is not a character in that game at all So you could say that he got fridgeed for lance, but then retroactively he gets a game that is all about him Has he been unfriaged? Because he got a whole game where we get to learn about him and who he is Well, is that vice city stories? Yes, that's the one right. Is he unfriaged? Is it possible to unfringe somebody by giving them a prequel that tells us everything we need to know about them? Uh, and thereby retroactively make them non-fridge There's a thought Fridges can be opened and closed Well, do you remember um To to re-reference high top I'm pretty sure point in his video was the you can't have peter parka grieving the death of tony stark and trying to uh interact with mary mj As a form of trying to start a relationship you can't do that and his comment section he'll be in like i'm sorry like you can't Grieve at the same time as trying to form a new relationship with somebody Like what the hell? Yeah, the and you get into the whole like you I don't know how definitive you can be about grieving with a human being It is complicated. Everybody's different Yeah, especially if it's a shared grief. Oh, you knew my father as well at his funeral Oh, well, uh, yeah, I knew your father too and we've never met before he would you know I'm a son and oh, I was his friend from da da da da da And literally someone's death and a shared grieving over a person can literally create relationships Because they'll talk about what they both knew Exactly Look we're referencing All these references This is one of them This is one of them is what you find out all the shit that we've seen because we'll just reference all Yeah, I was thinking about the star wars example like Can we not assume that luke is grieving his parents by in his fighting of the empire Throughout the movie like we need to get like him crying in front of the bathroom mirror or something like we don't Really need that we can assume but yeah, he's sad and this is why he's fighting to clarify for you some I've seen some people say they're not his parents. They are his parents. Okay They're his parents just because they're not blood Even though they are blood technically because they're all cold. Yeah, so there is parents. They're not his mum and dad Well, even though you probably would have called them Okay, it's not important the point is that they raised him Um, so yeah true Action through or character through action You know, but I guess the big thing though would be um if we are gonna say that it's a problem that luke doesn't react The criticism would be more so that it is inconsistent with who he is that he wouldn't be upset that his parents died Not well, this is fridging like they didn't get enough time on screen They're just there to motivate him like the criticism would be more character centric than it would be um Some meta. Hey, this is a trope. Don't do it. You know Yeah, yeah Okay, I wouldn't sorry. I wouldn't watch star wars and think like oh, well, it's been a while since they mentioned his parents Maybe he just doesn't care anymore.  He has to get the empire out of here the pieces of shit Yeah Grieve frequently fridgeed characters are never spoken of again after the arc They died in his resolve or even before it's resolved try and convince me that luke skywalker was still bummed about a glow in an Outbrew 10 minutes later It would be it would be bizarre human behavior if he wasn't I think it's pretty clear that especially when you give people that's why one of the things you do when someone's grieving Give them things to do You know to keep their mind off of that grief a lot of the times if you're in a bar and someone's hassling you Maybe you have more pressing concerns or i'm gonna take my grief and i'm gonna channel that into fighting against the empire right Also, you can go You can take this too far as well. There there's a character.  This will be very very characters specific Mm-hmm. Um, I hate this next slide. I've just read it Oh Would it hit the same if it killed their favorite possession? Is it sadder more profound or more profoundly impactful than no my prized collection So the implication here being that the person couldn't have been that meaningful if their death is no more meaningful than them losing like You know a particular item of this but the problem with this is If I lost a ring that was passed down through my entire family versus, uh, bob my neighbor who i've met three times Like it's yeah, i'm probably gonna feel more for the ring or alternatively if your house gets burnt down and you didn't have home insurance It's like, you know, you know what like you might be sadder about that than that one guy you met that one time seven years ago There are stories about this. I can't believe it. I think this kind of counts But um in god of war The two main characters are put in serious danger for the sake of getting ashes to a particular place Like they will go through almost getting killed many times specifically because of something meaningful They want to do not they what i'm almost saying is they almost value that shit above all of those kinds of very earthly very realistic risks What about macguffins and stuff like or some sword that has a legacy or some crazy power You know something like that Yeah, like people possessions can be valued. Um, and they can be valued significantly in a narrative I once said that's what she's saying like yeah, but she's saying it like it's a bad thing Like that's a bad thing.  So what do you mean? What if what if the point of the story is that this guy is so obsessed with his Value valuables that characters die around him and that kind of motivates him But then when like I don't know someone breaks his playstation.  I can't get another one. The scalp is this too. They cost too much Yeah, the infinity war is like all about that is like the lives or the possessions more important Yeah, that's right vision the the stone versus his life. That's right Yeah, yeah Paging litmus test I'd like to propose a corollary of the iconic sexy lamp test Which explores if a story would meaningfully change if a character is replaced with a sexy lamp This is the property damage test if a dead character could be replaced by someone's prized pokemon card collection And their loss would have the same or more emotional impact on the plot What if the pokemon cards were collected by many people who eventually died of cancer and passed it down? Yeah, I was about to say like what if it was his dad? It was like a cherished elwin John wick the dog was given to him by his wife. That's what gave it me. It matters to him Yeah, and that's what got stolen from him. Oh, there's so many counter examples that just like break these rules Mm-hmm. Ah Do you remember a hateful eight when she spits on his letter from Lincoln?  I love that bit.  It doesn't mean anything or you can you in the context of a film you can make this coffee cup mean Mean anything you can charge it with a bunch of meaning your sentimentality With a bunch of scenes that preceded and then all of a sudden when you see that cup on the screen You're like, oh, I really care about that thing like it just depends how you Exactly Yeah, you can have an item that is incredibly important to the survival of characters that is Extremely like importance like we need this thing to get us to this to safety We need this thing to get us out of here And if a character destroys that the others might be like They could be enraged and kill them because of it Yeah, you have a lot of fun with it too. Like dude, where's my car or something like that? Yeah Dramatically it's it's explicit in infinity wall.  It's like well, that's pretty. That's very addictive of fridging. I feel like oh no And so you should avoid it.  What if we're telling a story? What about luxo junior and the story about him and a lamp? He's a lamp and he's a person You can make a lamp a person You can make a toaster a person you you can make anything You can make anything Toy story their possessions. They were the infinity lamps like suddenly Oh And if the ultimate point here is actually no a meaningless item It's like well, then the problem isn't the comparison with an item. Is it it's the meaningless relationship You don't need to bring in what if it means less than a meaningless item like Well, yeah A character was probably fridged now. This is kind of a joke, but fridging is a bad Oh, no, oh, no, sorry all those people in chat. Bye. Bye. Yep What happens when a character dies is like this Maybe she's saying what's here on the screen and text is not what I think Oh, yeah, she could still say that I doubt it's gonna happen, but So what happens when a character dies is mishandled drastically reducing its emotional impact on the audience. That's an interesting As a statement. Hmm. All right Because remember by definition she's decided that Owen's mother's death was mishandled Which good luck arguing that yeah by dramatically reducing its emotional impact on the audience Yeah, because if she was on this call right now and said yeah, but had we seen her with Owen It would have been more impactful. I'd be like you can't you can't be definitive about that. You just can't No It's not a frequently misused trope or a hard day. It's bad writing character It's bad writing. It's bad writing. That is an interesting statement.  Here we go. Bad writing. It's bad writing. Bad writing. And see this is a big problem because she's been so nebulous up to this point that Like we've we've given you guys so many examples of things that apparently are now bad under her definition Jeez do not take her writing advice.  It's only not this video I'm gonna say the same. I said for high top. I'm fulfillment. Just one. I don't know. Just this is just the one video Maybe it's just the one.  I chose to tell this story.  Yep, exactly The story and concludes that all their future potential and growth and dynamics in the narrative are worth less than another character feeling Okay, you feeling kind of bad Wow, this is really bad faith right here. I was about to say like To clarify she's saying that whenever a character dies the writer has decided that their death means More than anything they would have done in life. And that's why I've chosen it Which is not how it works Yeah, this is insane. Well Ned Stark's death he could have as often I've talked about before because I really like the idea If he doesn't die there to see how everything plays out But his death is incredibly meaningful But his life would have been too the idea that the writer said no I'm doing it because it would be like more meaning comes out of him dying than living It's like that's not how stories work. No, this is this is the story that I have chosen to tell I could have told a different one, but I didn't because I wanted to tell this specific narrative Yeah, that's wrong. Just just straight up. It's not a zero. It's not a zero Something of this has more value than this. It's like they have a different value. They are different stories With different meaning. I don't know what can be a main character We need some secondary characters. We need supporting characters. Someone just said I doubt she would consider Ned Stark's death a bad one. It's like, I know that's the problem He counts But carry on. Sorry. A lot of a lot of stories are good Metal Wait, I was done. I was done. I was finished. Oh, sorry.    Ah more meaning, but I'd be like, I don't know. I don't know.  No In any change in what happens or who lives and dies that will just create a new story I don't have to tell any story Right. I have no obligation to tell a story where this character lives It's interesting because you know with us when someone's writing a story and they're like, all right My hero's in this room someone bursts in with a minigun and unloads into them And they're in like a steel corridor and they're really good at aiming. It is the stabiles.   Yeah Um to the drawing board instead of simply being because to be fair advice like this I think leads to what we end up getting it's like Kind of black widow die When she jumps off the facility in the third act. So just give her a parachute. Oh, she lives. Yeah We'll spawn a parachute next to her. It's like you can't that's It's like, yeah, but it would have been less meaningful if she died. It's like which by the way That's not necessarily true.  Yeah, there is no protagonist. There are just things that happen Right Y'all are deliberately interpreting what she's saying like four-year-olds. Like may I literally said it She said it's bad writing like come on Come on Add for a little while. This is reflected both outside of the story since this character's killer Be it the character who kills them or the author who makes the call demonstrably couldn't give a About them in their own right instead choosing to focus on time. You can't say that. You can't. No, no, no You can't say that. This is who are trying to insert yourself into the mind of every story That's that is actually a pretty significant. Why would you say that they don't care that the writer doesn't care? They clearly don't care.  You can't know that you can't possibly know that This is this is wrong. That's just a weird character judgment to make if you kill them.   Did he Yeah If we're talking about characters who are fridged even then if she's saying if you if you basically Fridge a character by killing them like this And denying them life in this fictional world that you don't care about them like that's if It's it's fucking ridiculous Agreed like I When i'm writing stuff and i'm coming up with characters like I even if it's just a tiny one-off thing Where that character only appears in one episode for like one scene I care about that character And I think I think a lot about that character and like trying to realize it as like a real Person even if it's just that they're only there for like a little blip In terms of screen time relative to other characters. I do care about the characters I think a lot about them and but the story's not about them. It's about the other people Can you kill so? Yeah, I'm just I I guess it goes back to the whole if fridging is just bad writing You are gonna have to come up with some serious alternatives for motivating protagonists Or you're gonna have to completely restructure entire story so that we have these characters get all this depth and background and I I Yeah, that that ain't happening Maybe it's more accurate to say the story doesn't care about the character rather than the writer It's like but again Ned Stark He his death basically forms all of the events to come to say the story doesn't care about him at that point I'd be like, I mean I don't know about that. You don't borrow me his death Like when it's brought up in ministerious and everything. It's like, well the story doesn't care about him He's dead now.  Oh god. Okay No, Boromir is crucial because he represents what the ring can do to a bad or a good man Yeah, well, if we want to I I think she's referring to the characters who are fridged So I assume that's the problem. They wouldn't count people Well, remember she said whenever a writer chooses to kill someone that means that they believe their death means more has more meaning than their life So like already that's a problem. And that's like, I don't even know that's necessarily connected at all to fridging her overall thing The general story stuff you're saying the decision to have them die Will yield greater utility in the opinion of the writer than their life Um, and that it is like that that seems to be what the point is And that is an interesting statement.   Otherwise, I might go down the same path. That was another thing She made it clear to say one character at one point here And I was just curious like if it motivates more than one is it not fridging Yeah, if it motivates two people Because she said about the castle venue when it motivated like everybody or something. It's like wait, but surely you could still go to fridging Well, let's stick with two. What if what if a kid uh, The death of a child and that the parents are the protagonists and the child has died offscreen or before the The story begins or at the beginning of a story the child dies and therefore that impacts the parents Because it's two people and assumedly the rest of the family, but primarily two people Is that not fridging? Right It's it's confusing again Since this character's killer be it the character who kills them or makes the call demonstrably couldn't give a shit about them in their own Right instead choosing the focus entirely on how ending this character's life will make another character upset for an arc or two Their own life and death isn't just an arc or two as if those are like dismissively a whole character Can you see this she's got like an image of oh they they maybe invent something They're doing something with powers. They're defending the innocent. They're getting an item. They're falling in love Apparently all of that is irrelevant compared to their death. Like that's what she's saying We have to have they have to have this we have to focus on them having the sadds and i'm like I I just I I would even say that generally them having the sadds is just the default of what you'd expect It's just amazing. We're gonna apply this to literally every character that's ever died Yeah The argument extends beyond fridging. Uh, oh, yeah Important or deserving of focus as hurting the hero by This successfully indicates that the killer is a terrible person But it also reflects a level of dismissiveness from the author a love interest slash beloved character can be killed or deeply Deeply hurt in a way that predominantly affects the plot by hurting another character without it feeling like fridging This is largely It doesn't feel like fridging here Useful real fucking useful execution pun intended if the death is unceremonious and quick and off screen That's a pretty bad sign since it doesn't really give the character their due It doesn't highlight the tragedy of their life Interesting she's using x-men origins when this was all this is what I was talking about before This is the villain wanted it to be this way.  It's like but what if in narrative The villain wants to kill this character to motivate the main character to do something This is exactly what I was talking about. Actually, I can't believe I didn't think about it The idea here is that if they kill the wife, they'll make wolverine angry enough that he will start trying to fight And you'll you'll opt into the adamantium program Uh, it turns out she's not dead by the way. She works with the villain So I don't know why you're using this this can't possibly be considered fridging Like she's in on the plan Right Maybe if it maybe counts as fridging if the protagonist believes the death is real That still counts. But so what I'm saying is defy the criteria that she said She's the character the person who dies quote unquote the wife They have a relationship and then she has to address this with him later that she faked her own death to make him do what he did Yeah, so how would that qualify if she is relevant later