We have the microphone sorted! Good morning and welcome to the 16th meeting of the Constitutional European External Affairs and Culture Committee in 2022. Mr Cameron joined us remotely this morning. Our first agenda item is the decision on taking business in private. Members will be content to take agenda item 3 in private. Y rharllwg yn yw'r peth yn Ycrain, ac mae'n provided gan 1 yna gŵr Cymru, yw'r Gweinidol Gweinidol Yw'r Gweinidol Gweinidol Gweinidol yn Edinburgh. Ac mae'n rhaid i chi'n cystledig yma yn gweithio. Gweithio'r gwneud i'r peth yn gael, dwi wedi dod i'r gwmwysgolul rydyn nhw, whole committee in sending wishes and solidarity to the UK and new people. I could invite you to please to make an opening statement. Thank you so much and first of all, good morning to all of you. This time we are in an open session so first of all I will be a little bit nervous. I listen a little bit more and therefore I will be more polite and diplomatic. It is a big honour for me to visit the session of the committee again and I really appreciate for the invitation and you are taking the time to do this again. A lot has changed after my previous visit in Ukraine, in Scotland, with temporary displaced Ukrainians and first of all I would like to start off by saying how much your support means to all of us. We are not alone that the whole world supports us and the whole world is staying with us. May be that I will stop here and spend more than happy to answer your questions. One of the concerns for us is the safeguarding I'm safe, passage and support for refugees who come here. I was a bit worried to see a Facebook advert, basically from probably a well-meaning source. Where a placement had broken down and people actually going out of Facebook and saying we need help. But from speaking with the minister, I know that the Scottish Government is absolutely adamant that anyone here can seek support either through the hubs or local authorities, and they will be giving support under the super-sponsor scheme. Is there anything that the Scottish Government or local authorities or we could be doing to emphasise to Ukrainians that the support is here and they don't need to do something that was potentially put them or a family member in danger as a vulnerable person? Just to get that message across that the support is here and where to go to to get it. Thank you for your question. First of all, they are not refugees. They are temporarily displaced to Ukrainians.  So in our case it's Poland or Slovakia, Hungary, Moldova, Romania. They are already here. So they are receiving here temporary protection status and we are hoping and we will want this that mostly of them will go back to Ukraine. Regarding your question about safeguarding, people receive here all support what they need. So when they are arriving to Scotland, there are welcome hubs in Edinburgh airport, in Glasgow airport, a welcome hub on 249 High Street in Edinburgh. So they are receiving support, they are receiving information. When they arrive for the airport, they are temporarily staying in hotels when the Scottish Government is looking for a sponsor for them or accommodation for them. But at the same time I need to mention that a lot of people are asking that for example those one who are staying in hotels, they are asking that it will be very useful for them if some representatives from welcome hubs can visit them once per week and just update them with information. For example that we are looking for accommodation, you can receive some benefits there, there or if you need something just here the telephone numbers or contact details, please don't hesitate to give us a call. Something like this will be very useful for them because it's not cheap to take a ride from hotels or from temporary accommodation to the welcome hub and if they need some information or some updates, so they need to take a ride there and go back to their accommodation. At the same time, the full-scale invasion has begun, so we have launched some type of also welcome hub. It's welcome hub by our community here in our community centre in Edinburgh on 14 Royal Terrace. So all the Ukrainians who are coming to Edinburgh, they can receive all support also there. They can receive all necessary stuff, supplies, donations, foods, clothes, this information, everything there. So if they need it, they just can follow us on Facebook, they can follow the websites so they can see all updates, all information when there are sessions in the club, when they can visit, when they can receive all necessary information. We are doing usually this on Tuesdays, on Thursdays, especially on Thursdays. It's very useful because we haven't the club drop-in sessions with Scottish Government, Home Office, PWP and so on and so on. So all local authorities, all local governments, and they're just coming visiting us and they're helping people because it's very, very useful and we are hoping that it will continue more in June and July and until September. We really need this, it's very, very useful for them nowadays. Thank you. Thank you very much. I'm going to move to questions from the committee and I could invite First Minister Ruskell. Yeah, thanks very much for joining us again. This morning we know that you're exceptionally busy with dealing with case work and supporting people. The last time you came to committee we talked about Ukrainian seasonal workers that are here. I think at the time, the details of the Ukrainian extension scheme were just coming out. I wanted to get your thoughts on how that scheme has worked. Have people been able to apply for the scheme? Have they got their visa extensions? Have there been any particular forms of advice and support that people still need? Thank you for your question. So yes, as far as we know, all of us, that when the war started on 21st February and when the UK schemes visas have been launched, it was family scheme and sponsor scheme. All seasonal workers visas tie a five, so all their visas have been automatically extended till the end of this year, till the 31st of December 2022. They don't need to do anything. They just was waiting when the representatives of home office will get in touch with the farmers and they will clarify all the details. So seasonal workers just knew that their visas have been extended. But now it's one more scheme visa. It's an extension scheme so they can apply for this visa. I can tell that it works. It's useful because just a few days ago we've made the power of attorney for a couple of seasonal workers, mother and father. We've made the power of attorney for them that grandmother can bring the kids from Ukraine abroad to UK. So as far as I understood to myself that parents have applied for extension scheme visa and their kid can be applied for, for example, super sponsor scheme visa as Scottish government will be a sponsor and then parents are going to Poland or to Hungary, Slovakia, Moldova, Romania and they pick up kids and they're bringing kids here to UK also to Scotland. So it works as we see. But I can tell you how good it is because I didn't see a lot of cases of it but just a few days ago I've seen it and people were really happy that they have received their BRP cards so now they can stay in UK for three years, they can find a new job or something like this and they can bring their kids. That's the most important, that they can bring their kids here in safe place. Thank you. And are you in contact with employers, with those who are employing seasonal workers? Are there any issues there in terms of accommodation, particularly in terms of bringing families over whether accommodation is suitable, has there been any issues around finding suitable accommodation for extended families? Unfortunately, I didn't speak to any of farmers because there was no occasions to speak to them because everything is fine. They are staying on farms, they are living there or if they have already received their BRP cards they can apply for another job, they can change it but for those who don't want to do this, they are living on farms, they are doing their job, they are still a seasonal worker and they are happy because they are doing their job, they are still doing what they can do and why they came to UK, to Scotland. Thank you Dr Allan. On the same point, I would just really to emphasise, thank you firstly for being here again, consul general, but to emphasise that this committee has written to the UK Government about some of these points about seasonal workers, so we are very sympathetic to them being on the visa scheme and being processed as quickly as possible. I just wanted to ask on a completely different subject in that case about what more do you feel Scotland can do, civic society, the Parliament can do to continue to keep the suffering of the Ukrainian people in the public imagination and to make sure that that attention doesn't go away. Thank you for your question. First of all, I need to mention that you have already done a lot. It's Scottish Government has done and Scottish Parliament has already done a lot really and we are much appreciated for this, for all this support, but at the same time there is always this small but. There are some cases where we still need support and maybe first of all it's English classes for people because for adults, for kids, that's very important really. Not all of the Ukrainians can speak English fluently, but still a lot of Ukrainians arriving here who don't speak English absolutely don't speak English, so they need these classes really and another one it's nurseries unfortunately, but it's a very big problem because mostly of those who are coming here it is mums with kids and a lot of kids who are under age of five or even under age of three, so when your kid is already three he can attend or he or she can attend the nursery for free so you can receive some benefits and some hours, three hours in the nursery, but if you're under age of three so you only need to pay and unfortunately there are, it's not cheap to pay for nursery and so these mums just don't know what what they can do in this case because they really need this support, they really need this help because they want to apply for a job, but they can't do this because their kids just one and a half, two, two and a half and they can supply for nursery because it's really expensive for them so maybe this that is very very useful for us that's we have resolved all problems all issues which we have but nursery it's still a big question for all of us and especially for these mums who came to Scotland and to UK with kids, thank you. On a completely different subject again consul general, I know that everyone is keen to make sure that Scotland and the UK play their role in isolating the aggressor in this war economically and I just wonder if you can say about your observations about that and what we can all do to ensure that Russia continues to be isolated economically. Yes, so you are absolutely right that the whole world is stopping their business in Russia. As far as I know it's already 1,537 companies have pulled out or stopped business in Russia and we are asking the whole world and the businesses in the whole world just pull out of Russia and stop trade with aggressor because that's your popularity that's your business and you will receive more profit if you will stop it there and you will open new markets in the world but we still need to show them that if you're going to do such things in 21st century such invasions such wars so you can be a part of democratic world so that's why we are asking the whole world stop of pull out of Russian market and stop trading with them. Thank you. Thanks very much. It's also good to see you. It's to follow up the questions about support from the local community. I've visited the Ukrainian support network and it is really impressive just to see what they're doing on the ground in terms of food advice even things like clothes because of course so many people have come with just one small bag so it's just rebooting all their lives. What really struck me was meeting two psychologists who've just been able to start supporting people so it was that question about what support people are getting once they arrive not just from the Ukrainian community but in Edinburgh which is clearly very strong but in other parts of Scotland are there networks that people are able to tap into or is it mostly Edinburgh and Glasgow? As far as I know that mostly of people, mostly of Ukrainians are in Edinburgh and Glasgow in Aberdeen then we can take Highlands, Dumfries but as far as I know Edinburgh is already full with people with Ukrainians so they are trying to move them to Glasgow or to other parts of Scotland so when they're arriving to Scotland if let's take example as Edinburgh so when they're arriving to Edinburgh airport they are the welcome hub pick them up in Gogirburn house and RBS so they are pick them up near the airport and they're driving them to Gogirburn house they are receiving their the welcome backpack with supplies they can receive some benefits money but only part of them and then they can apply they can receive another one in welcome hub in city centre in on high streets in Edinburgh and then they if they got sponsored already so they can receive a help to be moved to the sponsor or if they have applied for a sponsor super sponsor scheme as Scottish Government is sponsored they can they will be moved to the hotel temporary hotel so as they have already mentioned what will be very useful for them if some of representatives of welcome hub will visit them in hotels once per week and just give them some updates what's the status of looking for sponsor for them maybe some updates some news what have changed and so on and so on so that's that that is will be very useful for them at the same time there are maybe up to 500 Ukrainians who are in Scotland and they are already staying in hotels more than one month or two months so that's uh it's okay for those who are alone uh for who came by their own because they're happy they're in safe place they are in hotel they're receiving food meals three times per day so it's fine for them absolutely but for those for moms with kids it's not very good so we are trying to help them on our own way on our own but maybe if there will be more possibilities to to find a social housing for them for especially for moms with two kids and more that's that will be very useful and that's that's what we need nowadays really and also I just need to mention what I'm sorry when I talked about nurseries I forget about the schools that there are some cases it's not often but some cases when for example school is just five minute walk from the accommodation and when family when mom and kid tries trying to apply for the school and school reject them reject them because it's not in their area and there and school in of their area is 30 minutes driving by car so it's I'm I'm just sorry to say this but it's really difficult for them to do this really and because the school is just five minute walk so if it possible to make some exemptions for such type of families or where they can apply for where can they make it their appeal or apply just to change the to make extension for them that's that will help them really and I think that's all yeah really that's it thank you yeah that's really helpful feedback I mean the other thing I'd clocked was the challenge of people who are allocated a host and then it doesn't work out and it's not because of a fault on either the family or the host it's just people have different expectations and there's a reality check once people settle in I mean it could be pets allergies food choices could be anything that we would just take for granted so that was one of the things I picked up when I met people trying to support Ukrainians that there's a real nervousness because I think my sense is that Ukrainians are so grateful to be able to come and get support they don't really want to complain so there's a real issue about how do we support those Ukrainians who've arrived the first match doesn't work out particularly those who've got kids to make sure that they get we've got loads of hosts volunteering but to make sure you get that match up oh it's really difficult question it's just the feedback I got that that's one of the things we need to fix maybe but at the same time I need to mention that I just will tell you a small a small story a short story that when the Ukrainian family have came has came here so it's mum with two kids they got the whole story the host family in Scotland so they have met online they have talked everything's fine they are happy so and this family was got a transit in Amsterdam in Netherlands so they came to Scotland they've met everything's great so they're happy and this gentleman the Scotsman he start typing us in emails start calling to the consulate and just asking for help we just need help for this Ukrainian family just help us and we didn't understand what's going on what's happened just in which case do you need our help and after that he's explained us that when this family when we're crossing the border in Netherlands in Amsterdam airport the mum has lost some documents and he just was trying to do his best he was ready to do everything just to help this family to renew their documents and I was asking which type of documents they have lost so I have talked to mum and she told me that they have lost their internal Ukrainian passports in Amsterdam and I have mentioned to this gentleman that it's okay they don't need this internal passport here in Scotland and in the United Kingdom so they will go back to Ukraine and they will renew it there so currently they don't need it yes it's you just can apply for in Amsterdam airport for lost and found maybe they will find it and they will send it here but he was so keen on them he was so interested in help them that he just was ringing and ringing to the consulate he was just typing in mail that's help us help us help us they lost their documents and when we clarified which type of documents they they have lost so it's not it's not just a big problem when they will go back to Ukraine they will renew it but that was just something amazing really because Scottish people are so interested in this and they're helping us so much and they're supporting these families that's all that we can say is just thank you that's all just thank you thank you thank you just to follow up on Sarah Boyack's questioning we've heard from those close to the super sponsor scheme there's some flaws I'm keen to explore what your experience of the scheme is and I know you've mentioned for example you know 500 or more staying in hotels for for one month or more I just wondered if you have a sense of where the blockage is and if there's anything you know that the Scottish Government could be doing or COSLA or individual local authorities do you have a sense of that at all so yeah first of all it's it's approximate 500 people who throw away the Scotland who live in hotels more than one month unfortunately we don't have direct numbers how many of them when we are talking to people we are talking to when we are when I talk to Ukrainians who live in hotels so there is we don't understand where is the problem so of matching sponsor and the the host family and Ukrainians who are already here so they can do it on their they are trying to do their on their own but still they can't do this so Scottish Government is looking for a sponsor for them but at the same time we know for example some cases in Glasgow with social housing but there are social housing in Glasgow but it was decided that it should be destroyed because it's not okay anymore for live there so but at the same time our community there have mentioned that they have spoken to the people who have been moved from this social housing just few months ago and they told like yeah this building just need some renew this accommodation just need some renew just to some small repairs but it's okay to live there so but at the same time we have discussed this with Scottish Government and yeah they have mentioned that it's not suitable anymore for live this social housing so that's really very as I mentioned so social housing or accommodation is very important for those for moms with kids it's it's very important for them just because they will feel there's there's themselves more comfortable and for those who are staying here alone they tired of hotels yes they just want to have their own accommodation their own property or just to live maybe in house or flat with some sponsors but at the same time they're happy because they are in safe place and they have meal they have support so but answering your question regarding the where is the block unfortunately I can't tell you where is the block but it's not I'm not in charge on this because even people who might talk who might talk every day they don't understand where is the block so they have applied there are a lot of host families who has applied also to be a host family so where is the block just to mention them we don't understand maybe because host families for example from highlands and the the Ukrainians have applied that they want to stay in Glasgow or in Edinburgh so but there are not so lots of host families in Glasgow or in Edinburgh so that's why the the block so it's difficult to to to match them so maybe in this case because really when when people from Kyff for example or Kharkiv just came here and they have been moved to highlands or to some countryside they're really happy they're really happy to be in highland they were really happy to be in highlands because it's amazing views fresh air just brilliant they're happy but after two weeks they're started to be a little bit nervous and a little bit crazy because they get used to live in the big cities such as Kyff and it's four million population in Kyff and just to live in highlands for so for so long it's they become very calm they have a fresh air they're happy but they need again to move to the big city just to live their life in a big city because they get used to it thanks for that just on a kind of separate topic i wonder if you could perhaps give your thoughts on the humanitarian effort in Ukraine and you know the Scottish Government's role in that and so when the war started if i don't mistake Scottish Government has provided Scottish NHS has provided with medicine supplies for 1.5 million pounds it's just only Scottish Government so that's really amazing at the same time we need to mention that all communities here in Scotland they're helping Ukraine they're donating supplies money baby boxes i have visited some hub some warehouse one warehouse in Glasgow and they're collecting baby boxes and when i visited it on the baby boxes it was written this Scottish Government and i was asked them like so Scottish Government has provided this and they told like no we are doing it on our own they are collecting Scottish boxes through over the Scotland they can collect just empty boxes or some a lot of moms in Scotland who gave a birth to kids they just gave they just present these boxes full boxes just to to this warehouse because they don't need it and they just want to help moms in Ukraine and they're a big really very big warehouse with a lot of these boxes if they if the box empty they just collect everything on their own they just put all stuff and they are sending these boxes to Ukraine with loris here in Edinburgh our community in Glasgow also our community they're they're just collecting all supplies all the nations and they're sending it to Ukraine enormous support from Polish community in Scotland because these guys these guys are just crazy they're in good words really in good case because they're just crazy because all what they are doing they've bought an ambulance car for us you know they just did it they've bought an ambulance car they just found some Polish guy in Poland who came here he picked it up and drove to Ukraine Jesus I was shocked when I heard the story and I when I when I saw all this but at the same time Scottish Government has provided also a lot of supplies donations the Connections Scotland has provided laptops and iPads for Ukrainians here for especially for kids who need to continue their studies and Ukrainians were shocked they were so happy to receive this because that's they really needed because their kids were studying still online and when they received it and we are hoping that that will continue but nowadays they're really happy to receive this support it's very very useful for them because they continue their studies and some people continue their job online thanks to these laptops and the iPads or phones and so on so I just can't say that Scottish Government is not supporting us in absolutely another way you are doing their they're doing their best they're just giving all what they can for us for example when it was a football match Scotland Ukraine sorry for this it's just a football match unfortunately we lost two bells after that so Scottish Government has provided us a bus for temporarily displaced Ukrainians who just wanted to visit the football match they have we have arranged in consulates of Ukraine here with incorporation with Scottish Government and Scottish Government has paid for this and thanks to Lossian buses who has provided this bus so they have paid for it and Ukrainians who stay in temporary displaced Ukrainians who are who staying in Edinburgh they just was they got this but they have had this possibility to go to Glasgow to visit the match so that's one of the cases also Scottish Government help us so much they're providing supplies to nations and if if you are talking about Ukraine maybe it will be really useful to provide some medicine supplies again that's very important for us nowadays and we need food especially it's a long-term food can food macaroni some grains so that's something that we need nowadays in Ukraine really and such type of supplies it's very useful for us thank you that was very interesting but thank you I'm going to go to Mr Cameron we may not be able to see Mr Cameron but I think we'll be able to hear him online at least are you there Donald I am there I hope you can hear me good morning consul general and apologies for not being there in person but very good to see and thank you for coming to the committee this morning my question is around reports a few weeks ago about certain refugees being moved from one location to another I think it was from Livingston to Aberdeen having settled in Livingston and then and then being asked to move I just wondered if you had any observations on that was it a one-off or have you had any other reports about that and are you aware of what was with the language issues that won't ever come are you aware of what the problem there was oh thank you for a question first of all I didn't heard about this case I didn't heard about the story I will clarify it I just wanted to visit Aberdeen but I don't know when I will have this free time to visit it to visit the Ukrainian Square there I will try to clarify these details this story because I didn't heard about this I don't know what's the case why they have been moved from Livingston to Aberdeen but maybe it's we need to clarify for how long they've been staying in Livingston and just why they've been moved to Aberdeen maybe the problem with local authorities or people were applying just to move to another place because they don't like Livingston or it they really very difficult to answer for this question so I will clarify it Mr Cameron and I will get back to you with this case and regarding the language as I have mentioned already that yeah we first of all we need the English classes but at the same time if we are talking about interpreters so there are a lot of Ukrainian interpreters here in Scotland up who are helping us in different cases to the consulate to community center in Glasgow in Edinburgh but at the same time if I can mention yeah if there will be some interpreters in welcome hubs in airports in high streets that will be also very useful because when people just arriving to Edinburgh and they don't speak English if there will be some people who speak Ukrainian they will be really happy because not all of people know that for example in a Ukrainian consulate here work Ukrainian people they're just thinking that we are Scottish so we don't speak Ukrainian and when then when they are calling us and we are answering them in Ukrainian they just they are so shocked and oh it's so nice to hear my native language so yeah interpreters it's very useful for us in welcome hubs or just in in different places because but at the same time for example if we are talking about NHS there are Ukrainian brochure on NHS website so you can find all necessary information in Ukrainian so it's not a problem absolutely and I'm really appreciate to NHS Scotland for this because just yesterday I have checked it yeah it's in Ukrainian you can receive all information in Ukrainian language it's not a problem absolutely for you to register in GP you can find all necessary information thank you thank you for those answers I'm very pleased to hear that because it was a language was language difficulties was one of the issues that we were worried about a few months ago and it's good to know that those are basically being overcome and in terms of other issues that are facing refugees once they arrive you've highlighted many today are you satisfied that there is enough coordination between the various bodies that are involved between say for example the Scottish Government local authorities the NHS the various of third sector refugee groups do you feel that coordination is is present so coordination between SG and consulate for example or SG and the welcome hubs are just amazing because we got regular meetings and SG is providing me with all updates all information and I much appreciate them I much appreciate to Mr Gray to to departments in SG who are helping us who are supporting us it's really they're doing their best but at the same time maybe that more useful of coordination between local authorities because for example when people are coming here they can receive some benefits some part of their money is in the welcome hub but then they don't know where they can receive another part of money so they need to look for it they just need to go to city council to local council to local authority or to welcome hub somewhere else and they're just running because they don't know where they can receive these benefits so that will be some that is some of some case maybe where we can we wish we can discuss where we can receive some more support thank you so just just thank you just on that where do you think the gap is in terms of receiving benefits is it is it between local authorities between the various agencies what do you think the precise issue is or don't you know if you don't know then so don't want to press you to an answer I think to myself that the gap is just because people don't know where to receive this information if they will have this information just that you can receive money there you can receive supplies there you can receive another benefits there just to just to show it to them just to put it in internet or just to in some brochures that you need to apply or contact this email or contact this telephone number and you will receive all information all necessary information or where you can receive your benefits or your supplies so just to provide this information in in internet in on websites for example it is possible to do this on Edinburgh airport website because if you are writing in google welcome hub it's already at this time you can see the link for the Edinburgh airport website and you can see there all necessary information in English in Ukrainian so there are contact details links for their websites but at the same time there is no contact details of local authorities or welcome hubs where people can receive their benefits so that that will be very useful to add this to to these websites thank you thank you that's something that we can take up with the Scottish Government thank you convener thank you miss mental thank you convener and thank you for coming and sharing all your thoughts with us which i'm sure must still be incredibly difficult for you and as the convener said in the introduction we we stand in solidarity with your country last week for example i was in Dynun which is part of my constituency in the high school there had big Ukrainian flags surrounding its big games hall so there is such a strength of feeling for your country we've talked a lot this morning about Ukrainians that are coming to Scotland i'm interested if you could give some of your thoughts on what's happening within Ukraine as well what what you can tell us about that as my colleague Dr Allen said it's it's not we we need to keep it in the public psyche public awareness so if you could share a bit about your your thoughts that's going on in your home country thank you for a question first of all mostly all of you know what's happening in Ukraine because thanks to media especially to uniting the media they are very brave people to be in Ukraine nowadays and to show Russian troops military crimes to the world shows what is going in Ukraine and just to risk their lives because they are in in a country where is the war nowadays so first of all there are very difficult situation in the eastern part of Ukraine fights every day especially for the city of Severodonetsk at the same time some cities Kiev Odessa they're trying to live their lives make a live Nipro so they're trying to renew their lives i can tell you that's more and more Ukrainians coming back to Ukraine every day they're happy to be in Europe they're happy to be in safe places but Ukraine is our home and all of us want to go back home because we need to rebuild our country we need to renew our nation so we need to do this and that's why Ukrainians they're happy to be here but at the same time they're they just want to go back home so and they are not scared because of the war because of missiles is still flying bombs and they just they just going there unfortunately there is still blockade of our seaports as Odessa and Mikolayev and we can transport our grain and that's something that our government and trying to resolve because it's very important so and Russian troops is just continuing bombing our cities just launching missiles to our cities just a peaceful cities and just they're just trying continuing killing peaceful population unfortunately already up to 300 kids has already died in Ukraine for these three months unfortunately and that's that's very difficult when you're recognized it's that 300 kids has dead and but at the same time we are trying to defend ourselves we are trying to defend our country and thanks to the support of the whole world to the support of volunteers who who joined an international legion we are supporting our country in some part of our country we our troops started counterattacks they pulled back rations back so that's something that we are trying to do to regain our territories and to win this war and i hope that we will do this as soon as possible thank you i think we all hope the same and um are standing behind you very strongly yeah thank you um for sharing those thoughts um i want to just to reflect on something you mentioned earlier on in the evidence session it was about transport um you said that there were there are some people who are living in the highlands who maybe feel a little bit isolated um there are people that need to try to travel to get advice and support and then you also mentioned about families as well needing to access schools that are maybe not close by um i mean you'll be aware that obviously in scotland we have um concessionary bus travel for over 60s and under 22s um i wonder if ukrainian people um who are living here have been able to access those schemes and what you would think about the idea of extending concessionary travel free travel on buses to to all people who've been displaced and are temporarily living here in scotland uh thank you for the question so first of all yeah they know about this they are uh applying for this uh but um mostly of them are it's people who in the middle of 22 and 60s so and they are applying for bus tickets uh in our community center so our our community here is i don't remember where they take them these bus tickets but every time if people will visit the our ukrainian community center they can receive bus tickets they are also they can receive them in a welcome hub on high street but at the same time maybe there will be some possibility to provide free rides just if you will show ukrainian passport or for people in this middle from 22 to 60 or if they can apply just for one month's uh bus pass or travel pass something like this as it was in poland in germany in austria so that that's something that they really need because transport is not cheap so and for example even those who live in somewhere um i know near near the west end or in different in in different part of edinburgh yes so and they just want to visit the community center on tuesday and on thursday they just need to take a bus need to pay it and it's thrown it from for example from portobello to royal terrace and then back to portobello so it's not cheap for them unfortunately because now this year they count every coin because every coin is important for them okay thanks that's interesting in my own area we have a community transport bus a couple of organizations all for free transport for people so that's maybe something i can ask them about and other members may have a similar scheme to support the community here dr allan just that supplementary i realize we're jumping from subject to subject but something that genny minto said there about the situation in ukraine itself i wonder if you could say anything given that there are war crimes taking place in your country i wonder if you could say anything about what's happening in terms of prosecutors in ukraine or international prosecutors being able to gather evidence around war crimes i understood you so unfortunately i don't have so lots of information regarding this so it's better questions to the people in ukraine and prosecutors in ukraine so but yeah there was so some sessions of the courts already of when on russian troops who killed peaceful people and they were guilty they were recognized as guilty and they're in ukraine nowadays that's some of the cases and but if you will let me to finish all my speeches and answering my all all my questions i would like to say how ukrainians and just myself appreciate for the program of the sg for free studies for ukrainians in in universities and colleges that's that's so important nowadays really so people just happy to hear this program and we are trying just nowadays to clarify what's the proper what's the process and terms of applying for study in universities and colleges because terms of entering the college or university it's just we need to get in touch with university so but people are so happy to have this program and a lot of ukrainian students will try to apply for this and they just want to match studies in ukraine and in scotland they will try to they will see how they can do this or they will change something but we are much appreciate for this program because it's very important nowadays for us thank you a very brief entry to alster allen's question about war crimes because i'm working on the basis that people who are fleeing the war situation won't have been interviewed before they come to scotland and presumably there's a role once they get here to enable them to be able to record their experiences and be interviewed so that they are able to give that evidence when their memory is still sharp so that for the future there can be accountability for what's happened in ukraine so first of all what i need to mention that we are in cooperation with police of scotland and ukrainians who came to scotland if they became a victim of war crime or if they saw the war crime in ukraine and now they're in scotland they can get in touch with police of scotland and they can provide them all information just to give them all the details what they have seen or what happened and police scotland will do their best to help them and all all this can be as far as they know though they need just to write an email or get in touch on the telephone number hotline and after that the police scotland will get in touch with these people and they will clarify all the details i think that's very useful i just wanted to get that on the record because i was aware of being met people supporting ukraines that that's something that there's active discussion on to make sure those experiences are not lost and that there's accountability in the future thank you so much for clarifying that yeah we we had just if you don't mistake just previous week we had a meeting with the representatives of police scotland in our community center in Edinburgh and we have discussed this they have provided us with all information we have shared it in the club on our facebook pages on our websites so people know where they can provide information about war crimes if they are here in scotland thank you thank you for mentioning the extension of the support for students in colleges and i think i mentioned to you it was wonderful to see an s tv report a couple of weeks ago showing the talent at the royal conservatoire of the to the penis who had taken up that offer from the Scottish government early on we did hear of a problem with the students who were here who were finishing their studies and who were on student visas and obviously those visas would come to an end this summer at the end of the the academic year have those temporary replaced reherians been able to achieve an extension of that that visa to remain if they want to in scotland so as far as i know yeah if those who have been already starting here in scotland they can apply for extension of scheme it's not a problem for them so they can do this and they can continue their studies here they can stay in scotland and they will continue their studies and there's no no cases no problems no issues here in this if we are discussing this and also i need to mention that a few days ago there was a big thing for all of us that Edinburgh University have signed the memorandum with Kiev National University of Schiffchenko Kiev National University and that's very important for us because Kiev and Edinburgh is the twin cities from 1998 and that's the start of something new and we are hoping that that will that will be the beginning of something bigger in relations of two series i guess that's a positive note 10 on thank you so much for sharing your observations and experiences with us today it's been really really helpful and i just just know that the baby box that goes out in scotland is a poem saying welcome little one from jackie k and i think that that wish that's in that poem we would wish for all the children of ukraine at this time i was really touched when i visited this warehouse in Glasgow it's i was just crying really because every time when i thinking about kids my heart is broken and especially when i saw this baby boxes it was really amazing because mum's in ukraine can receive the same as the same stuff the same supplies as they were receiving in a peaceful time so that's really very useful and that's a great thing thank you very much i'm going to suspend consul general you're welcome to to stay we're about to have the minister in to have some questions i'm going to suspend briefly for five minutes to swap over thank you very much so welcome back and for a second panel this morning on the crisis in ukraine welcome neil gray minister for culture europe and international development and minister with special responsibility for refugees in ukraine or we might change that to temporary displaced ukrainians following the consul general's intervention so will tyler greg interim director deputy director ukraine resettlement scottish government and john keating head of international development in the scottish government and i know you've recently visited poland minister and i were interested in hearing about that and can invite you to make an opening statement thank you very much indeed convener and thank you to the committee for having me along again this morning last week i visited poland as the convener has outlined to see first hand how they have responded to the arrival of over three million displaced people from ukraine and to show our solidarity with the polish people who are supporting them while they are i met the international aid organisations and the polish government and was able to see how the four million pounds of financial aid we are providing has made a difference i also met with the inspirational leaders from civil society who are supporting people from the moment they arrive in poland i met volunteers at uniseff's blue dot centre these are safe places at key transit points that provide families and children with critical information and services uniseff has used some of the one million pounds from the scottish government to fund 24 blue dot centres in countries neighbouring ukraine where there are a high number of displaced people there is one particular part of this visit that will stay with me for a long time at the start of the war an unoccupied disused shopping centre in krakow was repurposed to welcome people who had fled ukraine it provided temporary accommodation and food alongside support for mainly women and children donations of clothing and footwear put on display like a department store giving people with dignity to choose the clothes that they need but it was incredibly hard for me to see the way women and children are in particular are living in that refugee centre the people around them are absolutely doing their best to make it the best possible for them but that really showed for me seeing firsthand seeing feeling smelling the difficult situation that is being faced by the ukrainian people has given me even greater determination to make sure that we are doing everything that we can in scotland to provide the support that people arriving here need and deserve it's clear to me that scottish support for agencies on the ground in the region is still very much needed and i'm also determined to do everything possible that we can to support ukrainians whilst scotland is their home one of the major lessons from my visit is the need for national and local government in scotland to fully utilise the power of the third sector and engage volunteer networks to help support to displace people settling in our communities i'm immensely proud that we in scotland have opened our homes to people fleeing this awful war but it is clear that the work is far from done you've already heard very well from my friend the consul general about the work on going and the challenges that we have ahead when we met in march scotland was preparing to welcome displace people we were determinedly pressing the UK government to waive visa requirements and at that time very few people had actually arrived in scotland we have moved on considerably since then since i last gave evidence to this committee over 4 000 people have arrived with a scottish sponsor and around 70 percent of those arrivals have been sponsored by the scottish government we have provided a safe and quick route for people to find safety in scotland our local authorities have been working hard supported by third sector partners to do all we can to to work within the UK government's visa scheme to welcome and support people arriving from ukraine a national matching service delivered by cosla has been set up to match people arriving under the super sponsor scheme to longer term accommodation and make use of the generous offer of the people of scotland the government's bureaucratic approach to this humanitarian crisis is well documented we continued to press them to waive visas to put people before process and provide local authorities with the funding they need to support people to rebuild their lives last week that the Welsh government announced that they were pausing their own super sponsor scheme i'm very sympathetic to their situation and i know it will have been a very hard decision to reach but that underlines the challenges that we're all facing in this situation the first minister has made it clear her intention for scotland to welcome a fair and proportionate total number of to play displace people from ukraine who arrive in the uk we're not planning to pause the scottish super sponsor scheme our energy and focus is on building up the national matching service providing people with longer term accommodation and integration support to make that scotland their home for as long as they need it to be and i'm happy to take questions community thank you thank you very much minister it was interesting to see that you still have the opinion that the the visa should be waived for approach into the uk regardless of the uk's european union status we're still part of the democratic world and when the deputy convener and i attended the ppa earlier in the year um we had a session on ukraine and although we were observers and unable to take part particularly remember a polish mep talking about the pressures on poland and and the sense of frustration that the uk could be doing so much more to play its part given the pressures on the immediate countries of mordova in poland and hungry and and also germany who are experiencing a large displacement as well what representations are you still continuing to make to uk government to change its position in this area thank you convener on visas i think what serves to illustrate the position best is comparing the arrival numbers here in scotland just over four and a half thousand to the arrival numbers in ireland or public of ireland geographically similar locations similar sized nations one has a visa requirement one doesn't and ireland has over 10 times the number of arrivals of displaced ukrainians and i think that serves to illustrate the barrier that visa requirements are putting in the way of people being able to come to scotland and for that matter the rest of the uk you're absolutely right to underline the challenges that are being faced by the neighboring countries for a different reason i was in germany a couple of weeks ago and was able to visit community groups in oftenberg in batten vertenberg who are supporting displaced ukrainians there and they are dealing in batten vertenberg along a state in germany has welcomed over 100 000 displaced ukrainians and there are real challenges with those numbers understandably similarly when i was in poland last week it was clear that the third sector input is massive there are also support there's support in place from local and national government but there are clear challenges in the neighboring countries and i feel given what i saw in that centre supporting displaced ukrainians the disuse shopping centre seeing women and children their pets living cheap by jowl on camp beds the heat was unbearable i think it's incumbent on all of us to do everything that we can to support as many people coming here to scotland as possible ukrainians and others fleeing conflict in similar situations thank you very much we're going to move to questions from the committee goes to miss mental first please thank you and thank you minister and your team for coming along today i'm interested you've you talked in your introduction minister about your recent visit to poland if there's any other experiences from that that you can share with us and also what you've highlighted the importance of the third sector and what learning did you get from what's the third sector is doing in poland and germany as you've highlighted that perhaps the third sector in scotland could learn from when we're welcoming ukrainians here thank you miss mental i think first of all it's important to stress the incredible effort that's already on going from third sector partners and local authorities in scotland the work that they're doing is phenomenal and self-starting you heard from yfion mankowski before me about the some of that work and the impact that it's had in terms of direct support going to ukraine and i think that the comparison would probably be that in poland the the third sector is far more involved the initial welcome and is doing a lot more on the ground whereas in scotland there's a local government coordination that has been supported by the third sector and i'm very grateful to the scotland refugee council and others for all the work that they are doing in that regard i think looking to see what more our third sector partners might be able to do so that the the full team scotland approach can be deployed because this is you know a huge challenge that we're all facing that we all want to overcome and that we want to ensure works incredibly well for those who are arriving in from ukraine but i think the other lesson that i've taken from the visit to poland is the fact that our scotland Government support is seeing tangible results and it was tangible and clear and evidence to me visiting the blue dot centre visiting caritas who work with ski af who were funded visiting the red cross centre seeing the work that they are doing to support people as they arrive in poland and knowing what they are doing on the ground in ukraine as well it was clear to me that our support is is well utilised and the fact that there sadly is a job for both large ngos that we've supported and also smaller ngos and some of the smaller ngos open crack off for instance led by Maria of Voitachia in crack off absolutely incredible you know that the support alongside the accommodation that has been provided there the giving dignity to people in a really challenging situation i take my hat off to them and i was able to articulate that and pass on my thanks to them for the work that they're doing so it was a very useful trip for me in terms of taking back lessons and working that we're already trying to deploy within the response here in scotland yeah i was saying to the council earlier that last week i was in denoun grammar school and they had ukrainian flags and as i drive round and drive from here to argyllin but there is so much support across various communities for ukraine i'm interested to hear a bit more about what what we can do from a a soft power perspective to support ukraine thank you i think we have been doing a huge amount already there's more that clearly can be done i was at the solidarity rally a week past on sunday i started at the russian consulate and ended up outside the scottish parliament and the support on the streets was incredible like you as i'm going back and forth in my constituency in erdring shots and around scotland i can see as mr mankowski had also articulated the site of ukrainian flags the colours everywhere we're wearing the ukrainian tartan as the convener you know we're doing everything that we can in the ways that the small ways that we feel are feel small but actually as mr mankowski articulated every small bit like that when we're tagging you know hashtagging stand with ukraine when we're slava ukraine when all of these things matter to people that i was speaking to in around poland i'm speaking to in scotland as well because the situation is incredibly challenging as we've already heard you know people are worried about their family members they're worried about their property they're worried about the future of their nation and so everything that we can possibly do to support them and show solidarity is worth doing thank you miss byrick thanks very much convener i'm very much in agreement with that stand with ukraine sentiment and can tell it's been had made a paternal impact on you having been across to poland and seen the reality on the ground i think my questions are really more about how you're monitoring um the supersponsor scheme what a success look like for you because the feedback i've had and if you look at the submissions we've had from different representatives just right scotland um cosla um glasgo health and social care partnership there's a real um there's a real gap between what our ambitions are collectively and actually the capacity of local authorities to actually deliver on the ground so i'd like to ask um a bit about the the monitoring you're doing on the impact of people being stuck in hotels for weeks before they get linked up with a sponsor um we got feedback from the consul general that there's a particular issue for women with children for whom being stuck in a hotel is just totally wrong for them um there's also a particular issue i've picked up which is that people when they get stuck in a hotel the routes they put down are with the ukrainian support community but that makes it even harder once they are given an allocation if it's not in that area because they've already made routes and they've got support so what are you doing to speed up that matching process um and the issue i'd like a comment about you about people being stuck in hotels because the experience from afghan and syrian communities is that they are still stuck in temporary accommodation and that's got a huge issue in terms of accessing schools the health the ptsd support and particularly accessing nhs dentistry i've had hosts getting in touch you're really worried about the ukrainians there um trying to support about who they contact because it's really hard to get those links on the ground thank you yes i mean i understand all of those concerns and i don't want to see people in hotel rooms for any longer than is absolutely necessary and we are working with local authorities to ensure that we are building the capacity around the matching service we've committed resource to that we've we're in constant dialogue with our local authority partners to ensure that there is as much clarity around how that process works around taking feedback around where they may need more help and ensuring that there is also flexibility around local matching as well to make sure that where it's possible local government and the local authority teams are able to use their local knowledge to be able to take matches forward quicker if that's possible i'm looking for us to do anything and everything to be considered to ensure that we're getting this moving as quickly as possible and it shows the challenge of the fact that looking at what wales has had to do over the last couple of weeks and there is no judgment from me over that because i can understand the pressures that they will have been under but it shows the challenge of this having been a immigration scheme rather than a formal resettlement scheme and the different levels of support that come from the two that make it more challenging for us to respond and we'll certainly do everything that we can to make sure that we're responding appropriately you're absolutely right that for for as long as people are in even in hotel accommodation they start to put down routes they make community connections they make community contacts their children start to make friend networks and that's great but that makes it that makes it challenging if there is a need to move people on to other areas and we want to be as sympathetic as possible to that but it just shows why it's so important that we get the matching service operational as quickly as possible so that we're able to provide people with the long-term accommodation provide them with a settled community that allows them to put down those routes as quickly as possible i'm alive to all of those we are constantly monitoring the situation we're in constant dialogue with our teams and colleagues in local government and we'll continue to provide the support that they feel is necessary to ensure that we can get people into the longer longer-term secure accommodation as quickly as possible that's useful as far as it goes minister it's the answers to the detail on those issues i think that is really important highland council for example tells us that the lack of guidance from the scottish government is actually creating a major problem for them now and they mentioned that in terms of the supersponsorship scheme and contingency planning and coslag gives us a big list of problems they have with the matching service at the moment so i hope you can get a copy of these papers and it might be useful if we got a briefing back from you because we're of course i mean i'll be interested in all the questions today because there are so many of them yeah i would be interested to see what further guidance highland council is looking for because with respect we've provided significant guidance on how that we expect the system to work and we're looking to make sure that we are working in partnership with our local government partners and if there are concerns that they have that they wish to raise then we would we would hear that and would work through them as quickly as possible and similarly with coslag i'm in constant dialogue with coslag i had a meeting with the president on monday i had a meeting only two weeks previous with coslag trying to find a way to make sure that we're getting the matching service working as quickly as possible but if the committee have any particular areas that they would want to write to me about to ask questions i'll be more than happy to write back in a timious fashion to ensure that you're given confidence that we're taking all of these issues incredibly seriously that we're working through all of the or any of the concerns and questions that have been raised with us because the first point that you acknowledged miss boyack was around the impact that visiting poland has had on me and the determination that i have that we do everything possible that we commit as much resources we can both from government and local government and the third sector to ensure that we are giving people arriving from ukraine and those arriving from other war zones the opportunity to make scotland their safe and supportive at home for as long as they need it that is a very useful commitment to be specific the quote from the highland council paper was the lack of funding instructions from scottish government prevents the council from planning ahead for this resettlement scheme so that's my second question really is about that planning when i visited the ukraine community last week i actually heard of somebody who's been given their two months notice for leaving their sponsor because it's a six month scheme so we're not just at the point of matching people with their super sponsor but people in the next few weeks are actually going to start running out of the six months so it's to ask you what's being done to think ahead and i both declare an interest in terms of my former employment and the low the nmsp in terms of the lack of affordable social housing in the city it's already a huge issue so what work is going to be done not just medium term but short term to address that issue of accessible housing the consul general talked about temporary accommodation and the the fact that our standards of housing he thinks that refugees would go for slight people fleeing from ukraine would take slightly lower standards but we've got our own health and safety standards so what is going to be done maybe to get access to social housing to get longer term placements for people so that particularly those women with children can both get their kids stable settled can get access to ptsd can get access to employment because however enthusiastic people are to get back to ukraine we know that for many of them it's not just their home is being bombed but it's their whole community's being eradicated so it's that issue about where are we going to put people up and what can we do now in terms of access to affordable housing so that they can at least make make their home in scotland even if it's only going to be for one or two years but the the hosting process doesn't take the box for that so what's next and what are you doing thanks miss boyard there's a number of things in that that i'll try to respond to in turn first in terms of the funding situation that highland councillor expressing concern about i'm not surprised that they're expressing concern about that because we share those concerns i've stated publicly a number of times in the chamber i think in this committee and in every meeting that i have with the uk government around the lack of parity that there is between those that have arrived in the family scheme and those that are arriving on the super sponsor scheme or the the homes for ukraine scheme the homes for ukraine scheme people arriving have a 10 and a half thousand pounds tariff that is supposed to go to local authorities there is still an issue there around that having arrived which i'm happy to turn to as well but those arriving on the family scheme are not the local authorities that are hosting them are not getting that same support and you and i know convener that regardless of how somebody arrives from ukraine the resource commitment that is going to be required from local government is going to be the same is going to be the same support required so i can give reassurance to highland council and all other local authorities that we are doing absolutely everything that we can as a government in our conversations with the uk government to get certainty and parity of funding the the second point to make around funding is the fact that at the moment we only have certainty for funding for this first year we have not been given a commitment from the uk government yet around what is going to happen in years two or indeed year three because this is a three-year visa system the next point that you made around housing and the fact that people are feeling vulnerable because the initial six months is coming close to an end i can understand that feeling of vulnerability the communication that uk government made was that this that the arrangements would be for if people could commit to it would be for at least six months and i cannot i'm not going to make any statement to say that i expect people to those that are hosting to go beyond what they feel would be appropriate but we already making we're already planning and have been doing a lot of work in terms of bringing social housing on to make it available we've provided local government with 11 million pounds in order to repurpose to bring void properties back into use we're in conversations with rsls as he'd expect as miss boyack would expect given her previous employment and they have been doing a very good job at helping us to make sure that there are social housing options available there are a number of areas that we're working on to try to make sure we're giving people the certainty and the security that they need and deserve in the social space obviously that as people are hopefully finding employment there's also opportunities for people to transition to their own arrangements particularly if they're looking to stay here for for longer so we're working through all of that and if there are any specific areas of concern that she has I can understand the situation that she's expressed in Edinburgh which is why we're keen to make sure that we're having a full Scotland all 32 local authority approach as the work was for the Syria scheme to make sure that the natural inclination of people to wish to be near or around Edinburgh it's articulated that there are opportunities beyond Edinburgh we've got colleagues here from the western Isles from Argyll and Bute from mid Scotland five from you know northeast from central Scotland you know that would all articulate the various merits of their particular areas and the opportunities that there are in those areas to find employment to put down routes and to contribute to find homes in those areas and I would hope that we can all continue to articulate the opportunities that are available across Scotland to make sure that the particular pressures that Ms Boyack has articulated in Edinburgh can be avoided in the long term. Reiterate that getting the answers to some of those questions would be much appreciated because they are now issues they're not future issues and the it was about the super sponsorship scheme that Highland Council were looking for clarity on in terms of funding and if you look at the cosla paper the list of issues it would be really good to get a set of answers for example they talk about transport that the host councils don't have the transport capacity to arrange for hosts to be put with their matches and it's not a model elsewhere in the UK so where we're volunteering and we have to come up with new schemes this all needs to be done urgently because it's not happening at the moment. Thank you. I would challenge that there are areas where those that is happening and you know we've got examples of local authorities putting in place travel schemes to ensure people are able to move around we've already talked about the travel provision that's available and you've heard from Mr Mankowski around some of that already however if there are the issues that have been raised by cosla I would imagine would be issues that we are discussing in our meetings regularly and I'd be more than happy if the committee wanted to write to me with any of the particular issues that they wanted more information on that haven't been able to provide clarity on or too long a list to read out today then I'd be more than happy to respond in detail in a timious fashion and give that commitment to the convener Ms Black. Minister we heard earlier today that there are approximately 500 Ukrainians staying in a hotel for one month or more I wondered if that is a number that you recognise and if so how long will it be before it's addressed? If I was to put an estimation I don't think it would be far away from where the committee had already discussed and that this is not a situation that we want to see happening we don't want people in hotel rooms for any longer than is absolutely necessary for all the reasons that Mr Mankowski had articulated the pressures that there are on families mothers with young children in particular I perfectly understand that and absolutely sympathise with that I cannot imagine the challenge that would be living out of a hotel room and the committee can be reassured that the scots government working with local government with our third sector partners are doing everything we can and I have placed an even greater emphasis given my visit to Poland and seeing how people are living there to ensure that we are doing everything we're leaving no stone unturned in terms of how we can commit the resource both human and financial to ensuring that we are getting the matching service moving as quickly as possible there are already a reasonable number of matches that have been made the matching service does work we just need to make sure that it is happening as quickly as possible there are different reasons why there is a challenge there some people who have offered their properties their circumstances have changed and those conversations have to happen it's a resource intensive process to be able to go through those discussions to ensure we can understand what the circumstances people have but I'd be happy to speak to anybody that feels that they have additional ideas or ways of ensuring that we're able to answer this situation and make sure we're getting this moving as quickly as possible thank you minister we've heard previously from COSLA that they have not received all their funding promised and indeed Highland Council submitted evidence to that regard as well so I just wondered from the Scottish Government perspective can you confirm that that position has now been rectified I'm happy to be corrected but I don't think that the money any money has ever been held back by the Scottish Government the £11 million is there for local government to utilise in terms to ensure that housing provision is made available and in a flexible way for local authorities to use as they wish to ensure that they can provide accommodation to their to people that are being hosted in their communities I'm not aware of any money having ever been held back from the Scottish Government there is a question mark over when the money will be arriving from the UK Government the £10,500 tariff and there is a serious question mark over whether that £10,500 is enough for local authorities to be able to provide the service provision that is required to ensure that we are providing that wraparound support that we need we are looking at what we can do to ensure that local government is properly supported in that regard and there's also a question mark around the UK Government having not given any further commitment to the funding beyond this year and so anything that Mr Golden can do to articulate some of the concerns that he's clearly received to amplify that would be I'd be very grateful for his support on so just to clarify under the Scottish super sponsorship scheme Highland Council have said the lack of funding instructions from Scottish Government prevents the council from planning ahead for this resettlement scheme is that incorrect? I'm happy to discuss with Highland Council any concerns they have about the or any other local authority for that matter the the challenges that they are concerned about in the longer term situation and we work with local government organisations with so last with with COSLA to ensure that there are long-term planning there's long-term planning in place but I'm very grateful to local government for the work that they are already doing and if there are any if there is anything more that the Scottish Government can do to ensure that local government are able to support the system that we have in place then I'm more than happy to hear that I'm more than happy to work with them if anything that we can ensure that we're providing the warm Scottish welcome that we expect our constituents expect but most importantly that we should expect and is deserved by the people arriving from Ukraine. Thanks minister to date none of the Scottish Government's humanitarian emergency fund has been used to support the humanitarian crisis in Ukraine are there any plans in place to deploy this fund? So I'm happy to bring Joanna Keating in at this point in terms of providing clarification around the process for the activation of HEF but as far as I'm aware there hasn't been a request made but I'm happy to bring Joanna at this stage just to clarify that point. Thanks very much and so the money that was we have the £1 million humanitarian emergency fund which we have annually so last year that was spent other than Ukraine but there was £4 million additional made available for Ukraine specifically going into this financial year we have the new £1 million available we have a humanitarian panel which is made up of international NGOs you know Oxfam, SCIAF, Tier Fund, Red Cross etc and so what happens is that the panel comes to the Scottish Government they activate we call activating for a crisis so they will look around globally decide where there's a particular crisis and which meets the criteria that they're looking at and where their members are already active so many members of the HEF panel have already received funding for Ukraine so the likes of Red Cross, SCIAF and also through the money that we gave to the DECA appeal as well again those organisations so that's the system really it's about for you know we have appointed a panel which actually takes the decisions on activations so other than where there's a DECA appeal that is launched and there was one launched obviously for Ukraine earlier this year that's the system so if the panel looked and decided that they wanted to activate for Ukraine that would be looked at but equally they will activate for many other crises around the world you know sort of DRC the Horn of Africa is a particular humanitarian crisis at the moment and also actually just seeing the impact from Ukraine on Africa as well in terms of food prices famine you know the world food programme concerns et cetera so the Horn of Africa there's a particular humanitarian crisis at the moment thank you minister thank you panel back to you convener Dr Allen thank you convener I just wondered if you could say a little bit more about the UK's approach the visa approach that's been taken you mentioned it's very different from that in Ireland but as far as I think we can all understand it's pretty different from everywhere in Europe how unusual is it and what are the conversations that you have with the UK government about that Dr Allen is correct that the UK is the only European nation that is requiring visas for those fleeing the war in Ukraine and I think we have to ask why that would be the case when every European nation has opened its doors has allowed people to enter and then go through the people before process why the UK can't and I've already referenced Ireland because of its geographical location Mr Mankowski is articulated earlier very well the fact that people want to stay close to Ukraine and that's understandable they've got family reasons they've got property that they want to check but for those that are perhaps looking for different opportunities you can see and are willing to travel further afield you can see the different arrival numbers between Scotland and Ireland and the major difference is the visa requirements and we know that Ireland is welcome 10 times the number that Scotland has and that should embarrass us all because I think that we all have a collective responsibility to do everything that we can to make sure that we're doing everything possible from a humanitarian point of view to support people displaced from Ukraine and I commend the efforts as I did when I was in Poland when I was in Germany of those communities that are you know opening their doors in other parts of Europe as I commend people in Scotland and the rest of UK that are looking to do everything that they can to welcome people here in Scotland and thinking to thinking back to what you said there about the the notional sum allocated by the UK government of £10,500 to some schemes but not others you expressed concern there about the equity between the different schemes but do you have any concerns about that sum itself and what is it that local authorities would be expected to cover from it so local authorities would be expected to cover all areas of wraparound support that they have a responsibility to deliver social work education you know all manner housing all manners of areas of responsibility that local government have and I am concerned that that 10,500 is not sufficient and I don't believe that it is in the parity has parity with previous resettlement scheme support numbers I've articulated that both in terms of the quant the overall quantum and in terms of the parity between different roots to the UK with the UK government repeatedly my colleagues have as well right up to the first minister I think that there is sympathy for the position particularly around parity between the visa routes I think Michael Gove and Lord Harrington have expressed sympathy but at the moment that sympathy has not extended to treasury extending support and my call today would absolutely to ensure at the very least if we're not talking about the overall quantum of the 10,500 then at least ensure that there's parity of support regardless of how people arrive and finally convener on another subject we've talked a little bit or alluded a little bit today to rural areas because many rural areas need both new people and I also need new houses as well with money going in from the government end just now into social housing and appreciate the displaced persons may not want to stay here long term but should local authorities and other agencies be factoring in the needs of displaced persons when they when they come to their planning on housing and rural areas as well absolutely I would hope that that should go without saying and to be fair the conversations that I've had with local government that they are looking to do everything that they can but Dr Allen is absolutely right and represents a community that has suffered depopulation and has depopulation challenges but also has many opportunities and a beautiful place to live and work and to ensure that people have a good place to raise a family so I think what we have to do is we have to understand that people arriving from Ukraine will have probably as much understanding of Scotland as we perhaps have understanding of Ukraine will know about Kiev but will know only from what we've seen on the television and so I think it's incumbent on all of us to make sure that we are articulating the opportunities that there are beyond Edinburgh beyond Glasgow as wonderful cities they are about saying that there are opportunities beyond the central belt and that some people who are arriving will be looking to find employment very quickly others will be in a different situation and there's no pressure there but for those that are looking to find work opportunities I think that Dr Allen articulates well given the community he represents and I see Ms Minto nodding her head given the community that she represents in Argyll and Bute that there are employment opportunities beyond the central belt and that hopefully we can ensure that people enjoy the whole of Scotland and the pressures on Edinburgh and Glasgow can be released a little bit as a result of that. I met with staff recently from the Ukrainian advice centre and the worker support centre and you know the government's financing of those is obviously very very welcome and much needed at this point but the picture as I understand it is that the Ukrainian extension scheme has been you know relatively straightforward in terms of advice cases that are coming forward legal advice that's required but the Ukrainian family scheme and the sponsorship scheme does throw up much more complex immigration advice support that's needed legal advice that's required and at the moment a lot of that is being provided on a on a very much a pro bono basis. Do you have an understanding of what what that ongoing support might look like and what the resource might be required to actually ensure that people are getting what they need because obviously there are issues around you know legal aid being being unavailable for many people. Thank you and I thank Mr Roskell for his question we are providing support through Just Right Scotland and ensuring we constantly review the level of support that's going to be required to Just Right Scotland to ensure that we are meeting the demand that people have to access advice around their status and I'm hopeful that the capacity that we've put in place at Just Right Scotland will ensure that we're able to meet the demand but there's also as Mr Roskell has pointed out you know that the extension scheme has been useful up until a point because it gives people certainty up until the end of this year is my understanding but again in terms of parity we don't have parity between those that are you know on the on the seasonal workers visa and those that are arriving through homes to Ukraine or the family visa scheme whether it's where it's three years so we've asked that that get rectified and that we have better parity to give people better certainty. There's also an issue around people on the seasonal workers scheme are unable to sponsor family members to come. The work around has been used through the super sponsor scheme where people can have the Scottish Government sponsor them and then they're able to meet up with their family and that has been a work around but I think it would be fairer to ensure that there is parity across all the schemes and that again speaks to the challenges of having an immigration response to a humanitarian crisis as opposed to a proper resettlement scheme that we would normally see. In terms of longer term integration support advice around employability I mean Mr Mankowski was clear earlier on that the vast majority of Ukrainians want to want to return however I'm also hearing from the advice centres that there may be some who have been displaced perhaps several times through through war and may wish to remain may wish to look at longer term employment opportunities within the UK should they choose should they choose that how are you factoring that in I mean obviously there's the complexity around visas and everything else in the UK government policy but how are you supporting people if they want to to to remain within the UK and scotland I have full sympathy with that I mean anecdotally I when I was in crack off I met Alan Ruznick who was originally from Bosnia had fled the war in Sarajevo when he was 13 had his family moved to Slovenia and was having moved around the world for work feeling feeling very transient had ended up in Barcelona I was working as a chef at the outbreak of the war felt a real calling to go and do something to help and had felt that returning to Slovenia would be his way of helping because he knew Slovenia ended up in crack off had a seven hour stopover before his next train asked around and ended up at the world food kitchen outside the the disuse shopping centre that was talking about and is now there living on a camp bed in the accommodation that has been provided alongside the other displaced Ukrainians and volunteering his services an incredible man and it was really emotional speaking to him and I pay tribute to the work that he and others are doing from around the world to help on the ground but that feeling of transience of not knowing where your home actually is as a result of having fled one or two or however many conflict zones and having to find and rebuild your life is it must be incredibly challenging a very hard and that's why I'm so determined that we do everything that we can to obviously provide the initial sanctuary to provide the initial safety in Scotland but then also give people the support that they need to be able to rebuild their lives to ensure that they can call Scotland their home for as long as possible I'm going to bring in Will Tyler Gregg to give more detail on the worker support centre that we have provided funding to because ensuring that people have access to employment support to give them the resource the independence that they desire you know my conversations with Yfiam Gankowski of many months that feeling of desire for independence and for their own sustainability is very very strong for people arriving from Ukraine sometimes it's not possible and I understand that people arriving with horrendous trauma and I've got examples of children in my constituency that I've seen where that has had a profound impact but for those that are able to or that want to we want to make sure that we're doing everything possible to to provide that support and I'm keen to bring Will in to provide more detail around the worker support centre and integration support I mean in addition to just right which we heard about earlier the Scottish Government has invested £41,000 into a worker support centre which is using a model which is used elsewhere around the world to provide advice to seasonal workers for those that have arrived through the super sponsor route there are a variety of agencies that are providing support including skills development Scotland and obviously DWP is also into hotels and meeting with individuals to talk about access to benefits and obviously those that need support straight away can access the Scottish welfare fund as a sort of bridging gap which is also not repayable unlike universal credit okay final question is about transport and again you know we heard from Mr Mankowski earlier about just some of the challenges and you spoke to yourself minister about the need for independence for people that are living here and dignity as well I mean it's clear that you know some people are living in quite isolated situations particularly in rural areas that they need to travel to access advice and support they often need to travel to access school and other other facilities as well although some people will be eligible for national entitlement card for free bus there is a big gap in the middle and you've spoken yourself about how councils are trying to fill that by buying tickets and having those available at hubs and everything else wouldn't it just be a lot simpler for us to extend the national entitlement card to displace people in Scotland because the current entitlement extends to up to 2.6 million people in terms of Ukrainians we're talking about four and a half thousand people who are here so it's a rounding error in terms of the budget that's available for concessionary travel in Scotland and it would clearly be transformational for people who are here who don't have access to cars don't have access to many of the transport advantages that we have and probably are the most needy in terms of needing access to transport for independence and dignity and everything else thank you convener i thank mark ruskell everything that he has said i support absolutely in principle and following the meeting that the last my last appearance here when mr swiney was substituting i had a very productive meeting with mr swiney and mr doris around this very issue and alongside transport scotland officials and others and we are trying to work our way through trying to find a system that would avoid the need for complex legislation because there are complexities in extending and about making sure we're able to identify who we're extending it to and how that would work so we're trying to we're trying to find a way through that situation we've got great sympathy for it and i very much appreciate the work that as mr ruskell has pointed out that has been done by local authorities across scotland you know i mentioned sterling there are many others that in glasgow and edinburgh and across scotland that are doing fantastic work to provide transport support i would say i wouldn't dismiss the entitlement that is already available not long after that committee meeting i actually met with mr mancoffsky and we were discussing this very issue and i was explaining to him the i ddwylo'n cyd-noghefyd ac i ydydd yn cael ei ddweud. Mae'r sefyllfa wedi'u ei ffwrdd, ond bydd mwych yn ei gael eu cymaint o gydigol i'r cyd-noghefyd y ddwylo'n cyfaint. Y pwgon o'r rhaid i chi.  A oes hynny, mae'n bwysig i'r cyfrifyddydau yn teimlo. Mae'n dweud o'r gweithredegu'r cyfrifyddydau There shouldn't be need for an updated SI maybe to go to committee to extend the franchise further but can you give us a sense.. Of a horizon here and when government may come to a decision on this because we are now entering into the summer People need this, as you said it's not it's actually less than 4,500 it's probably only 2,500 Given that we've got both ends of the age spectrum it's the families in the middle it's the mums with kids as Mr Mankowski said earlier on who are really struggling at the moment ar y cyflosio, felly mae'n meddwl eisiau yn eistedd yn ei gadob i'w wneud. Soliwn i, ond dyfodd y dyfodol yn ein bwynt iawn. Ac y dŵr ddweud oedd mwythio maen nhw i fynd yn Llyfrgell ddoros ac Ibn Sweeney i ddoros i fynd yn oeddu i ddechrau a fydd yr Asylum Seekers i'r ffraeg i'w gennym, ddim ddiddoros i ddechrau i Ucran i'r fathau a'r anodd that we can make a move if it's possible to do it, to provide something on a national basis. That's where the additional complexity will lie. But I'll give a commitment that we'll make sure to write to the committee and write to Mr Ruskell, given his interest in this area and provide an update on how we're progressing with that. Thanks, convener. Thank you. I'm going to invite Mr Cameron in. Thank you, convener, and good morning to the minister. Apologies for not being there in person. I'd like to just follow up on a couple of questions that I asked counsel general. The first one was the reports about various displaced persons being moved from Livingston to Aberdeen a couple of weeks ago. And just to ask the Scottish Government's response to that, was it a one-off and what is the minister aware of the reasons behind that? I'd be grateful for any explanation that he could give, please. Thank you, convener. I thank Mr Cameron for that question. Yes, I'm aware of the circumstances. We had challenges of temporary accommodation availability at that particular weekend and ensuring that we had availability for people who we knew were going to be arriving into Edinburgh, which is the arrival point predominantly for the whole of Scotland. There was a need to ensure that we were asked voluntarily some of the displaced Ukrainians that were in the hotel in Livingston whether or not they would be willing to move elsewhere. A bus was put on in order for that to happen. Some still travelled, but there was an incident and an issue that I think was regrettable around caused additional harm and stress to those who were potentially travelling. I think that it's important to stress that lessons have been learned there in terms of communication from all of us about ensuring that we are communicating as well as possible with not just displaced Ukrainians but those who are supporting them around the reasons for why the committee has already articulated around the challenges that there are in Edinburgh and the local area in terms of making sure that there's a whole of Scotland approach and articulating why different parts of Scotland provide different opportunities and also making sure that we're able to articulate to people why it is that we need sometimes to move, but I think the necessity for a move like that is much reduced given the situation that we're now in, and I want to reduce that even further by making sure that we progress the matching service as quickly as possible and allow people to get into a longer term of accommodation. So are you confident that that kind of situation won't happen again? I certainly hope so. There's always going to be a need for people to be moving in Scotland, because, as I've already articulated, Edinburgh is the arrival point for the vast majority of people arriving from Ukraine, however whichever country they're arriving from, they're arriving into Edinburgh predominantly, not exclusively but predominantly, and it's clearly not sustainable for people to be staying in the Edinburgh area for a long period of time because, as Ms Boyack has already articulated, there are accommodation pressures in Edinburgh as it stands, and so there is always going to need to be a move or a couple of moves for people to put down their routes, but I'm wanting to limit that as much as possible and ensure that there is communication in place that ensures that people from Ukraine are understanding and that, at all stages, when there is a move in place, that it is voluntary and that people understand the process that they're going through. Thank you for that. Can I move on to the question of information about benefits, which the consulate general touched on? I don't know if you were able to hear all that, but that's helpful. He suggested that there was an issue about information around benefits, and I just wondered if you could elaborate on that. Is that a matter for the DWP? Is it a matter for the welcome hubs publishing or making available the right information? Is there anything you can illustrate or help us with in terms of that issue? There are a number of areas that I think are important to provide clarity on. The first is that I'll have a conversation with Mr Mankowski later on this, but I think that some of the challenge here is around people understanding how far they are away from the social security support that they qualify for actually arriving with them. Part of that, obviously, is that Mr Cameron will be well aware, is that there is a five-week wait inbuilt into universal credit, that we all know the challenges that result from that. I don't think that we're going to resolve that particular situation today, but I think that it serves to illustrate that the inbuilt five-week wait poses major challenges for people in Scotland, the rest of the UK, and those arriving from Ukraine as well. It is another argument why the UK Government needs to resolve the structural issues with universal credit that I previously and in a previous life had campaigned hard on. The second issue that I would like to raise is the fact that Mr Tyler Gregg had already raised that the availability of the Scottish welfare fund for people arriving from Ukraine, particularly to fill the gap where the DWP's five-week wait for universal credit exists, is available. We have provided support and guidance to local authorities around ensuring that that is made available to people arriving from Ukraine. Obviously, we are doing everything we can through Social Security Scotland for those who have more complex issues or who have entitlements to Scottish Social Security to ensure that the range of entitlements that are available in Scotland are articulated to the welcome hubs and that is all progressed and processed as people are arriving and going through the welcome hubs. I think that conversations between the council general would be helpful. I reiterate the points made by Sarah Boyack and Maurice Golden about the various issues that have arisen in submissions before us, principally from COSLE, but also from the Highland Council. That appears to be very much about the provision of information from the Scottish Government to local authorities. I do not know whether we can provide you as a committee with those points in due course. COSLE makes certain points about challenges facing the matching service, which include complex cases, the fact that there are many large families with no available matching properties, they talk about the property requirement, having to be near a job or a place of education, they talk about pets, they talk about transport. There are a number of issues that are clearly arising within the matching service and the super sponsorship scheme. I suppose that that is not really a question, but it is just very important that the Scottish Government is aware of those issues and is hopefully able to resolve them as best they can. It is not really a question, but it is just a final observation for the minister. Please feel free to come back on it. I am happy to answer the statement that Mr Cameron has given, which follows up from as he has already articulated the questions that have come from Ms Boyack and Mr Golden. I will bring in Will Tyler Gregg in terms of the direct communications with Highland Council, but I reiterate that the Scottish Government and local government are third sector partners where we are doing everything that we can working together to drive more pace into the matching service. I have already articulated some of the challenges that Mr Cameron clearly agrees with in terms of where that is resource intensive, where there are discussions that are required in terms of whether the expression of interest is still available, what people are expecting, both those from Ukraine or those hosting here in Scotland, it takes time. I am keen that, as I said earlier, particularly following my visit to Poland, that we are redoubling our efforts to ensure that this happens at pace so that we can do everything possible to make this a success and avoid the need for what has been required and necessary in Wales to provide a pause. I will bring in Will Tyler Gregg in terms of the direct communications that there have been with local authorities on that. I would say that a lot of this programme is data driven and we understand, for example, how many properties are being entered on to the national matching service system, so we can encourage pace around that. The minister has talked about the investment that has been made to encourage local authorities to use innovative approaches to get more properties on to the system more quickly. The middle bit is the matching, and we again share all data back with COSLA and COSLA talks to us regularly about the actions that it thinks that it could take to speed up the pace of matching. Matching in itself is not a clerical one-in-one-out, the minister has alluded to the fact that a lot of that is human relationships and human driven, and so people may have preferences and will voice choice, and that is taken into account as part of that. We know the performance that we need to hit on the national matching service. COSLA is around the table on those discussions, and so the actions that they have given to the committee in returning evidence, I would expect to be of no surprise, and we are working very hard to make that happen. In terms of funding, we have not received any funding from the UK Government. However, we have issued letters of assurance to all councils to explain how the UK Government funding system is, as we understand it, supposed to work, and I have also heard just before coming into committee that all councils now have claim forms for thank-you payments and tariff payments, but I would be very happy to pick that up directly with the Highland Council after the meeting today. I hope that that provides further clarity, particularly around the funding issue, which I was articulating, and Mr Tyler Gregg has provided further expansion on. The fact that local authorities are only now just getting those claim forms, and the fact that we have had to provide letters of comfort, particularly around the £200 payment, serves to highlight the challenges that we have had in terms of confirming and knowing what is going to be happening from a UK funding perspective. However, we are working very closely with UK Government ministers. The relationship in that regard is positive, but there are often challenging conversations about ensuring that the rhetoric is matched with action, and we need to make sure that there is greater pace inserted into getting the funding scenario resolved, because that is at least part of the concern that local government has. It was just for a very small supplementary on the comments made by Mark Ruskell about access to buses. The COSLA paper that we have has actually got statistics on the number of people who are already in Scotland from other asylum and humanitarian schemes, and it was just a human touch that, when I met Ukrainian people who had come to Scotland last week, one of them told me that in Ukraine the cost of a bus trip was 10p if you translated it to Scottish money. I thought that that was a cultural and a financial gap for them that is making people quite anxious. I can perfectly understand that. People arriving from Ukraine, most of them, have been turned upside down. Their property has often been destroyed, their finances have been ripped apart. To get here in the first place, huge challenges are facing. Clearly, we are wanting to do everything that we can to provide the support that is required to allow them to re-establish their lives. Transport is one element. There are many others that we are investing in to ensure that we are doing everything possible to ensure that they are able to re-establish their lives here in Scotland for as long as they want to call Scotland their home. A couple of final questions, minister. If that is okay, it is something that Mr Van Kofsky mentioned earlier was access to nursery placements. Now, he mentioned that it has been access to free places over three. Of course, the legislation in Scotland is for vulnerable two-year-olds as well. Have you had any conversations with local authorities about assessing children who are from the displaced community here to ensure that any vulnerable two-year-olds are also getting that free nursery education? Given all the challenges that we have already set out for local government, I put it in this context, but I would say that we are working in partnership with local government on those issues. I would ask that local authorities, both in the question around access to childcare but also in the question that Mr Van Kofsky posted around school catchment areas, use the flexibility and discretion that they have to their absolute maximum to make pupils' arrival in Scotland as warm, supportive and understanding as possible. Finally, it was my opening question to the council general. It was about when there is a breakdown in placement about people going on to social media seeking a new sponsor and possibly exposing them as a vulnerable family in that context. What reassurance can you give to people who face those situations that the Scottish Government is there to step in and that sport is available without having to go through social media outlets? I am very grateful to you, convener, for sending that particular case to me. I am also asking this question today because it gives me the opportunity to once again say in no uncertain terms that nobody in Scotland needs to use social media to find private matches. That is the whole point of the super sponsor scheme. It makes it safer. We do not need people running the risk of well-meaning social media pages that are offering rematching or matching services. That is not needed in Scotland. The Scottish Government will match you. If a match breaks down, contact your welcome hub, contact your local resettlement team, contact the Scottish Government, contact your MSP, anyone, but you do not need to go through social media sites. There are major safeguarding concerns that I have. I have articulated them to UK ministers around the prevalence of them elsewhere in the UK and about how that is posing a major risk to the homes for the Ukrainian scheme elsewhere. I cannot stress highly enough how people should not be using social media to try to find private matches. It is not necessary in Scotland. Thank you very much, minister, and to your officials for your attendance this morning. We are now moving into private session, but we do have a final agenda item. If people could clear the room, that would be very helpful. Thank you.