Why I chose Godot as my game engine and how to effectively evaluate game engines. My name's Brett and I'm a hobbyist game developer I've been using Godot for the last month after evaluating game engines for what feels like maybe 15 years thought I'd share How I landed on Godot why I'm Excited about it and my story through there. I'm gonna get right to the chase by explaining why Godot And then we'll Show you how I arrived there the first thing that I really like about Godot is that I can make 2d games and 3d games in it The 2d aspect of the engine doesn't seem like an afterthought and neither does the 3d. It Features the ability to bake games that Are in both of those styles you could even mix and match within your games, which I just really like I Don't want to be limited, but I also want those Game types to be accessible to me where a lot of game engines Especially a lot of open source ones are 2d only or maybe they're they support 3d, but they don't give you a scene graph and a Lot of nodes that are fundamental to making these games Secondly is that it's open source. This is so important to me. I fundamentally truly believe that in the end open source will win and Eclipse closed-source software just on the basis of Hundreds to thousands of people being able to contribute and make it better and those people don't have Commercial interests in mind and the way that a business does so maybe it takes longer to get there An example that would be blender blender's been around for a long time and It it's truly this legitimately great 3d modeling software and yes, it has competition but it took a long time I think for it to establish itself and be competitive at like a hobbyist plus to professional level and I do think it will win out in the end and Result in better tools for people. I just believe in open source You know and here's an example of why Gadot being open source is awesome There was a typo in documentation I was able to go fix it submit a PR Get it merged in and it all happened so quickly and smoothly I got thanked at the end, you know, the people making this are Nice enough at least to say thanks and acknowledge my first PR To such a big project and that means the world right like being welcoming to contributors is so different than other projects Where PR is language and never merge or people are rude or whatever so to me. I love that Gadot is open source I love that I can help make it better and Really learn how it works under the hood. That's a really huge Benefit to software being open sources being able to make it better and being able to understand what's happening under the hood Secondly or thirdly, I can make games on Linux and macOS which are the two operating systems I use the most I'd love to transition to using Linux full-time, but I use macOS for my job My most powerful computer is a Mac book that I use so for now I'm using both of them and I really love that Godot's client is Works, it's just as good on Linux and macOS as it is along Windows and the same can't be said for Unity and Unreal and other dimensions. I've used at least I Also like that Godot targets PCs and phones and open platforms now I know that the Apple App Store and the Google Play Store aren't open In the sense that Like itch.io is open steam also isn't open You know these places require you to create an account and go through an approval process but what they don't require is you signing NDAs and Things being closed source and secretive like the consoles do so I like that, you know as a Solo developer at this like hobbyist plus level. I'm not I don't care about consoles, right? I care about computers and phones devices that are easy to target that a lot of people have and Godot targets them so that's you know what matters to me and it's really easy to get your game running on those platforms and The fifth and maybe most important aspect of Godot that I love is that there's very little reinventing of wheels meaning that out of the box the engine provides you with so much Useful bits from 2d physics to 3d physics to a tile map editor to positional audio playing it really has a Lot of what you can need a shader editor It's it's really thought out and it's mature, right? It's entered its fourth version. It's been around for Almost going on a decade of being open source. I think so That aspect of it is it's mature and it's stable enough where I'll talk about some other tools that are Fresher and newer and promising but aren't quite there yet. So From those aspects, you know, that's why I love Godot I think if you're interested in making games and you're wondering what game engine to use here's six really good reasons to use them Maybe not all of them resonate with you, but All of this packaged together plus and I didn't put this as a bullet point But I just like using Godot It is fun to use gd script is nice. It doesn't feel like You have to use C sharp or like I think generally the resources I find are Gd script and a lot of people are using it and it feels good coming from a ruby background Where you can express yourself pretty quickly with the scripting language. So yeah, all those reasons plus I just like it There's this sort of creative intuitiveness When you use certain software and if it clicks with you and good those click with me and I really like it Good oh also has many examples of Commercially shipped video games. This is huge right to see games that I Knew about before like I didn't know they were made with Godot don't keep her a potato Those two in particular. I was aware of them as games, but didn't know that they were made with Godot So then to see that is awesome to see these games on steam to see them on consoles like a couple of these games that is a Sign that there is momentum that people are making and shipping interesting games with the engine and that You know, I could have sensibly do that too. That really that means a lot to me So that's all the reasons why I chose Godot Let's get a bit into my background though, because I think that will help understand how I got there I started coding games in 2008. I had Java Computer science class in high school. My teacher made us print out our code and he Grated it on paper, which is kind of weird But that's what he preferred and my final project was this game called Zaku space battle, which it has the little zaku mechs from Gundam they fly in from the right side of the screen on the left screen side of the screen you pilot this Moltres that moves around then you spit out these fireballs and when you hit the Zaku they die and There are multiple of them and you have to eliminate them all as I put in the upper left corner So that was me with Java and it's my final project. That was really fun and got me hooked on game programming then I Started learning C sharp and XNA at the time 2008 2009 this was when the Xbox 360 was pretty big and there was this thing called Xbox live indie games where you could make games with Microsoft's tooling and their engine called XNA which used C sharp and You could even run your games on your Xbox. I think I'm pretty sure I remember getting a name running on my Xbox 360 Like that was huge at the time right the ps3 was super closed the Wii was closed you can make games for the computer, but this seemed like This really awesome resource, so then I eventually went to school for game programming I dropped out of to three semesters and started working and my kind of life and career took a change, but At this time I was using C sharp and XNA in college. We even used C plus plus and That with that I made this level editor for one of my Final projects where yeah, you build this whole level and there's particle emitters and you can go to different levels The whole editor can be controlled with your Gamepad or your mouse and keyboard and that was a fun project. I really enjoyed making that and but I never finished it or released it But this is the only artifact. I don't think I have the source code, but I have this screenshot in In school, we also used flash which is dead now and was closed source and you know, so is XNA So, you know, that's a theme throughout a lot of this stuff is like there will be these closed source options and then they sort of die and People resurrect them out with open source alternatives But we used flash and the language action script three within it to do a bunch of coding.  I helped contribute to adding Control or support to flash games Using this product called air and like I don't know. I just like wrote a tutorial a decade ago that some people used and helped them And that was cool. So it's been a lot of time there them flash died and I went on and just did web application programming for my career and Was enjoying that path. I was going down wasn't in debt from college and was doing doing alright so Put game programming on the shelf But I would dabble with it from time to time There's this Lua engine called love that I would mess with there's mono game Which is this sort of successor to XNA? That uses C sharp which a lot of games use especially games that maybe were Written in XNA when they targeted the computers. They would rewrite in mono game or use this other thing called FNA Sdl2 and C++ run through and went through a book on that Go Sue which is this C++ engine that has Ruby bindings and this go engine called ebiton engine that You know, I would just dabble right I would make these little games would never finish anything Nothing even worth showing but go through those tutorials and was still interested in making games But I never really never clicked with me again until I found hacks Flixel and In about 2017 2018 started using that so remember I was said I was using Flixel the flash library Well when flash died this re-implementation of it came out called open FL in this language called hacks and Then a group of people rewrote Flixel using hacks Therefore hacks Flixel and then it evolved and changed and I just had such a nice time using hacks Flixel made a bunch of little games with it made a Platformers infinite runners a pawn game Rock paper scissors shoot. Just really having rock paper scissors. Yeah rock paper scissors. I don't know where I got shoot from Just made a bunch of you know pixel art Games with it and really enjoying that process and felt like oh, yeah I'm like getting back to my roots of enjoying making games and wanting to pursue that more And this was around 2020 I Even made this JRPG with That's a dragon quest sprite, and then I made the other sprites that aren't very good But you know got this working where there's combat you can explore the map the levels are made with tiled and Then Kind of fell off again, you know, these are just like fun hobbyist projects took a break And time passed, you know working and life happens as it does and then around 2022 at the end of 2022 I After going through, you know life changes and really thinking about I decide I want to make games I want to commit to this. I've been dabbling with it as a hobbyist I don't have much to show for it, but I still have the interest and I have the passion so The question becomes well, what game engine should I use? And that's a really hard question to answer, you know, I've already shown and talked about maybe 10 engines and They're all a varying maturity and ability and there's more I haven't evaluated So I just begin thinking about it and experimenting What I need is a game engine that I can grow with so that It can support me making simpler games as I'm just getting myself established, but I can invest in learning it and invest in the Foundations of these games that I can reuse these pieces So from game to game I can take that knowledge and it sticks with me. That's really important I want to be able to work quickly with it And it's really important that I can target computers and mobile devices with so those are my crutch area that I go out searching with You might be thinking well, why don't I use Unity or Unreal? those are the two main players here and Again, I want to use Linux and Mac OS to develop my dream is that I use Linux Full-time to make games Right, I just I think that's really interesting. It's something that would I would enjoy that computing experience and I don't think Unity or Unreal support Linux Well, or at all. I prefer open source Unity and real are made by huge companies that have Interests that I don't think align with like a Single person like with me making games. I think I think they're interested in making money I think they're interested in people using their technology and their platforms and I think That's sort of like vendor lock-in and the terms of Using their engines is just not Like it just doesn't align with my values and like no shade for the people who do use those wait I think what matters is the games you're making but For me, it doesn't resonate with me I don't want those complex terms of usage where oh if you you know make this much Then you have to give them a percentage or you're paying this much monthly or whatever And I don't really care about consoles Which I know that those you get right out of the box because they're closed source and that's super cool If you're like I want this game to be on Nintendo switch Tomorrow You'll have to set up a business or find a publisher and stuff, but it's a lot easier. I think And then it is with Godot or other languages So that's super cool if you're into that, but I find the consoles to be a bit of a moving target Like there's new ones coming out. It's closed. You have to have dev kits It's it's like a lot more work right where like for the computer It's just easy to distribute especially as someone getting started and who knows if there's gonna be a new Nintendo console or you know Whatever it's just I just don't really care about them that much, but I understand that's people do and that's cool Enter Dragon Ruby game toolkit. I find this game engine. I think on itch.io because it's on sale I'm just browsing assets on itch and See it and go Dragon Ruby. That's really interesting. I've used Ruby full-time for Like 12 years. I think 12 13 14 years. I really like Ruby as a language, but it's not Hasn't really been so great for making games. I found But this engine comes along and I really like it. It really connects with me the games run pretty well I enjoy using it make a bunch of games really quickly and make this action game called destroy all goblins. I Struggle with optimizing it having it perform well Which I'll get into I make this snake clone Where I hand draw all the graphics and scan them in which is like a neat experiment and it works on Mobile phones and it's on the app store for free the iOS store I have free Android, but Google won't approve my account for putting games on it Which is like this whole other side thing of like, you know, these like closed ecosystems or open-ish ecosystems like Their support just stopped emailing me back even though I like paid and registered to be a developer on Google Play Store, but whatever. Who cares just a free game And I'm not too worried about targeting mobile devices for any of the game ideas. I have but Maybe in the future. I'll have to figure it out. I Make this like a little shooter game kind of like vampire survivors that Enemy swarm after you and they drop the XP and You know, I just have fun using the engine That's maybe the most important thing about Dragon Ruby and maybe making games in general is that you're having fun and enjoying the experience Drive Dragon Ruby game toolkit has some really neat Features like it library loads the code as you save it. You can use your own text editor, which is nice. You can Just has a nice ethos to it and really small API so you can learn it pretty quickly but After about three months of working on it and learning it I write a book called building games with Dragon Ruby It's a free book online Just where I share what I've learned because there's not a ton of resources out there Which is this double-edged sword, right? It's not widely used. There's not many resources for it. So then do you not use it because of that? maybe but I Kind of was like well, let me make some resources and contribute and try to help people But eventually I arrive at this Understanding that this isn't the game engine for me understand it appreciate it respect it But it's 2d only so that's pretty eliminating. I feel like making 3d games will help differentiate when I'm making and That will be useful to people Or useful, you know, it's fun for me It's expressive and creative and I think it will be appealing to people that I'm not just making 2d games It's bring your own everything right from collision detection to just anything That's more complex than the things I showed you in those videos are just you have to reinvent the wheels and it's so Not what I want to be doing I think there are people who have a lot of satisfaction about figuring out how to do Collision detection, you know really good collision detection. I'm not really interested in that. I want to make the games not really a dive deep into a physics system or whatever right and So that's just my own You know issues with it. There's not good performance tooling like a profiler. So if you're making a game that needs to run well You're gonna spend a lot of time either bootstrapping your own like performance metrics, which I was able to do but that's not very fun and there's just not There's not enough tooling there to I think make medium to large games with it and Make them run well and then There's no shaders or rumble or these things that matter to me when making games to give it that extra bit of polish So that's not there and then fifthly. It's it's closed stores. So You I can't make it better even though it's only made by a small group of people It's that sort of limits it and there are little bits of it that are open source But like I've had a pull request that's been open since November that hasn't been closed That just like fixes some typos on the docks. So You know just doesn't doesn't work for me and that's okay and So then I back to the search for finding a game engine and Learned a lot though. So, you know, I'm feeling excited and that sounds like it could be defeating to sort of spend three months Learning something and then realizing that it's actually not the right thing But that's what this whole process is about and that's what this whole first year for me is about is evaluating What are my options finding a good fit make sure I invest in the right game engine and learning and My spirits are still high. So the search begins again. I am curious about bevy It's a game engine written in the rest language. Rust is really compelling. It seems like a good alternative to see in C++ I have used it before for non-game things. So I'm familiar with the language Bevy seems neat. I spent some time learning it. This is a circle moving around field You can't see it because the field is just those white Rectangle, but that circles moving and then the mouse fires at things. I get this little prototype running takes it's not super fast to develop in because I've been learning so much but And then that part was slow, but it starts to click and I'm enjoying it But then I quickly realized that bevy's not ready. It even says it It's the first like sentence in the documentation. It says bevy's not ready. You should just use Godot So it's really this thing that's like actively being developed has a lot of promise, but it's not ready and I'm sort of going well if they just say, you know in the docs to just use Godot If you're actually building like a stable game and you want to like build a business around this like don't use bevy I'm like, oh, yeah. Okay. Yeah, that's true. Like it's not one point now there's sparse resources and I'm not Moving as quickly with it as I would like but there's so many people so many interesting things going on there that it's It's promising and exciting and I can't wait to see what happens with bevy But I go, okay, they recommend Godot. Let's give it a try. I'm familiar with it, but I haven't used it Give it a try Godot really clicks with me right away. I make a bunch of 2d prototypes There are a ton of YouTube videos and courses you can buy that I've been going through and just from 2d alone I'm making these projects pretty quickly. Here's a game a shoot-em-up game that I made here's a 2d Action game kind of like a mega man that I made just using free assets, right evaluating the engine getting comfortable with it and I just find myself loving using Godot like It's it's clicking the light learning. I've done before makes sense Gd script is great like the little what I was saying earlier. It's it's going really well and I'm enjoying it. So Here we are today. I'm enjoying Godot. It's seeming like a good fit checks all those boxes that I mentioned earlier and Let's talk about how to pick a game engine because if you've watched this far you're probably interested in good though We're using Godot, but you gotta understand. What are your motivations and goals, right? That's When you're evaluating technology, whether it's a game engine, whether it's a programming language, whatever You gotta know what your motivation and goals are Do you want to work at a game studio as a professional developer? Coding and like get a job. I would probably learn unreal or unity Maybe I would start with unity and see sharp and then I would go and learn c++ and unreal because those are the two behemoth engines that are used at all variety of size studios and What you learn in other languages would certainly help you But if your goal I would buy a Windows computer and I would learn unity and then I would learn unreal Whether it's programming or game design or a mixture of both or making art If your goal is to be employed at a studio start with those but if it's not like that's not my goal, right my goal is to make games and Be a solo independent developer. So if you're looking to learn programming I would try to go or like something like pie game or love 2d where maybe you do have to reinvent some of the wheels But that'll help you learn a lot and you'll bring that knowledge to an understanding to things like good Oh or unity now if you're a hobbyist plus developer, which is what I consider myself, right? I have intentions of making this my you know make it earning some money or making a living from it I think that's a dream and I'm taking it seriously And you want to make 2d or 3d games I'd seriously consider it good. Oh, I think it's for all the reasons I've said It's open source 2d and 3d games run great feels good to use lots of resources. I think it's a you know really a Good one to try and and go with and just see what works see what clicks with you, right? You're gonna see people and you're gonna see videos talking about Why not to use this or why not to use that and you'll see a lot of elitism for engines and languages and I've used a variety of languages a variety of engines and I'll tell you what my feeling is that it's what matters is What feels good to you? Make sure that you know you want to be able to accomplish what you're setting out to do so that's important, right? But you want to feel good and different languages will click with your way of thinking and you can have debates over is this language better than This language or is this engine better than that engine, but ultimately what matters Is that you go out you make games you find a tooling and a workflow that you enjoy and Create something that's interesting something. That's fun something. That's compelling and don't worry about the elitism in this or that Don't second guess your choice, right? Like take something spend a few months learning it. It's time. I'll spend what you learn will go with you into the future and Don't get caught up in You know, is this better than that or whatever, you know, there's gonna be ups and downs to anything you choose And you just want to find what works for you All right. Thank you so much. This was a lot of rambling, but hopefully interesting and helpful and gives you a sense into how I land in Ecuador Thank you and see you next time. All right by


Everybody forced here ripping 2023 bowman draft baseball choice in super jumbo seven box makes your number 16 pick your team style MOD Guardians Anton H. Ray's Brad W. Tigers Brandon D. Giants Christopher s a's Don L. Yankees Donald D. Padres I suitcase with the Marlins Eric W. Mariners and Mets Eric M. Royals Frank L. D. Bax Gabriel C. Rangers Gerrard S. Red Sox Astros and Reds Jeffrey H. Orioles Jonathan L. Cardinals Kuniaki Nationals Kyle L twins Michael P. Rockies Michael C. Dodgers Nate M. Angels Nestor R. Brewers Patrick H. White Sox Peter S. Phillies Raymond R. J's Shanichiro Braves Thomas C. Pirates and order number 259832 with the Cubs Paper based split even in these breaks in the mixers Everything else routine of course Emerson was a Clark Blue refractor to 150 diamond backs Davis and de la Santos Got refractors of Brian Acuna Ledbetter Marcella Meyer Alderman Espinosa Taylor Salas Max Clark first bowman auto Cardinals Travis honeymoon first hit goes the Cardinals is a Langford base glass type eats for the Mariners and Aqua wave first of Kevin Sim number to 125 diamond backs refractors Hunter Owen Marcus Brown Wells Napchick Montgomery Borough Fenn Cravey Muth and an aqua lava Cole Carrick first woman autograph Rockies That is a nice one there 69 of 199 Heck yeah, John.  How you doing? It has been a minute Drapped good good place to be ripping bone draft Better place to be is top-loading going draft Yep There is he agreed because he contractually had to He was forced to agree No Aqua pink paper to 199 Jason choreo Guardians Lots of dust probably Sparkle is Francisca Guardians and they were doing good. Any a draft ripping for you Fractors of Woodward Mahoney or hollering Morris Savakul Cunningham Williams Taunty and Look at that. I know that is Paul Skeens first woman based auto pirates first of the day first of the day That's for Thomas C. Thank you Thomas. Thanks for joining that the mag for you I know I feel like we're missing out like it's a party. I don't think I'm missing out I don't want to be out there I don't want anything going on We need a separate building where I can go break in this is distraction No, Bryson or Dylan come ask me questions Like I don't know Google it but it's about late sport the late sports practice. I don't know Google it That's a printing plate of Hans Montero Where the Yankees one-of-one printing plate? Mitchell in there. That's is Paul Skeens on the glass fuchsia lunar crater to 199 Marcus Brown Nationals Hype dies down. Yeah, I'm not sure how much it'll die down But the Brady the Brady gold 12 and 50 is still out there then it certainly won't Refractors of Carlson Reed Connor Burns Nelson Rada O'Donnell questad Hawk Munoz Wilson purple refractor Elyon Soto first woman autograph Nationals Three of 250 light blue paper to 499 Max Anderson Tigers Bison just top-load mode. I am sparkle Gabriel Gonzalez mariners Fractors now Brooks Lee Zonatello drew Gilbert Max Anderson Ariel Castro Matt Shaw Celestine Jacob Wilson first woman auto mariners is Brock Rodden Brock Rodden for the Mariners Choice case time all autographs. Yeah, we had a we just had a couple bays. That's all we hit yesterday Which is way better than the odd say I just saw a thing that said Otani is at the Yamamoto meeting with the Dodgers Oh Yeah, so is the uh Big big pitching prospect from Japan is coming over this year.  No, Tony is there. Oh boy. Oh boy Dodgers world series champs next year. See nice color blue refractor a nice brand of winnaker for the twins first woman autograph That is number 96 of 150 wins next up is a choice to 150 first auto Hunter Holland Reds That's numbered 68 of 150 and a blue wave raised Trey Morgan first woman autograph Number to 117 of 150 all numbered in the first one here all numbered in the first box Choice Like I'm a wrestler or something Aqualava first woman autograph Cardinal Zach Levinson numbered 181 of 199 in lava refractor first bowman autograph Ralphie Velasquez numbered six of 99 Cleveland Going to ammo with the Guardians Congrats ammo That'll go into a mag and a base first woman autograph White Sox Seth Keener Keener Keener Let's go on Good job, Donnie. Yeah It's nice to have a couple of thousand refractors. Yeah, I can have a brain actually. Oh yours does my never does it Oh, I never do that or the confusion constantly Christian Campbell choice parallel to 150 first woman autograph 149 of 150 Next up is a base first woman autograph full foster for the Giants and another gold here Shimmer first woman auto the Zanzanatello Boston very nice Gerard with the saw the socks dude Numbered for up 50 will get it in a mag Zanatalo Zanatello, but I went to all of our ones I was like the one exception I'll be with when you hear family except that guy printing plates Autograph d-backs first bowman grace and hit That is awesome Congrats d-backs Grace and hit first woman autograph printing plate the one-of-one there green lava first woman autograph White Sox Jacob Gonzalez now That's awesome to really good case of choice here You will get the Gonzalez magged Yeah, should be a lot of these I think base auto this time first bowman of Tommy Troy Great great box for the Dimebacks Frank L First woman auto nice one. Oh is Enrique Bradfield jr. First Enrique.  I've seen a couple on eBay bidding like super high With a good bit of time left. I guess they're the only time Brady one sure likes those cards We're gonna get refractor first woman autograph Zach Levinson Cardinals 315 of 499 Green lava first woman auto Blake Mitchell, Kansas City, Eric M Sweet Blake 52 of 99 we'll get that in a mag They're a high first rounder here and a base auto to close it out here is Cade cooler for the Braves Are you got a pretty plate of Hans Montero Yankees? Light blue paper Anderson Tigers aqua pink Jason choreo the paper there chrome parallels Marcus Brown Dave's Adela Santos Kevin Sim Autos of cooler Santana Bradfield Tommy Troy good base autos there Foster Keener Rodden Honeyman is Levinson Purple Soto Levinson aqua lava as well as Carrick Morgan on the blue wave winnick or true blue choice to 150 Holler and Campbell and Celtibon Printing plate auto is hit for the D-backs one of one of the black green lava Mitchell Royals it's a 99 green lava Gonzalez white socks the 99 green lava will ask as guardians the 99 base skeins with the pirates and A gold shimmer Zonatello for Boston 450 very nice break there. Thanks again everybody on to the next mixer


You know what I'm saying? Who's, who's arguably one of the best ever. Hard with it, hard with it, right? I gotta ask you one question before we, before we get off of here, because we're about to close, but I can't not ask about silk, the shocker. Yeah, now for the get off boss talk, without talking about silk, because a lot of people would say, man, he wrap off beat or he do this or he do that. But his whole presence, it seemed, it seemed like it was a place for maybe you got the gangster. They ain't saying he ain't gangster. I don't know what they say to you know, I don't know none of that, but I just know when he basically had his place, it was a place for a young man to see his way through. And I just watch, I'm like, I watch people, man, you know, so what's up with silk, man?  You know what I'm saying? Who's, who's arguably one of the best that would do this much with it, right? So young people, I guess you didn't like blue face. But he went platinum double triple platinum, but you know what I'm saying? So I just think that I think silk sometimes get caught in the crab and the barrel thing with black people. You know what I'm saying? Without messy people that want something to say. But what you got to know about silk, this kid, right? I'm like, oh, I'm grown man. He's still our little bro, man. Dude is a mastermind. See what people don't know about him and he'll give, he'll probably get mad like sir, but good. You told him, man, this dude been behind production of many huge tours, many TV series, movies. You have production companies, major ones. They call him and come to him to review films that they either going to pick up or not. Wow. He does, man. Dude is intelligent to a, a, a beyond a stage. You know, and rap, man. I mean, he loved doing it, but silk was a ball player. Silk love basketball first. You know, but silk is a businessman right now. People could say what they want about him, but you might catch him in the airport. I promise she's going to a multi-million dollar meeting where people will pay him six figures to review the movies that they might pick up. And we're not just talking about, like we talking the Lions, Gays, the Netflix and all this. You know, that's the guy right now.  Come check it out. Tell me what you think. That's who silk is, but his heart is even bigger, man. He's a, he's a good dude, man.  If he answers the phone because he always running because his son's right now to his son's a hell of a ball player is one of them is he's going to be victorious Miller is going to be one of those in the year too. Wow. I promise you. What's his name again? Victoria, Victoria's Miller. Okay. How old is he? He's going to be a, he's a junior to share in high school if I'm, if I'm mistaken, but he's a five star right now. So we're going to see him in the NBA. Every, every, I promise you, you will.  He's from now here. I promise you, we have a new generation that's coming.   His name is Jackson. What's his time? Jackson. And right now he mad because he ran a 10 three, but he wants to go under that. Yeah. He's talking high school. Yeah. And that Duke. That's fast. At University of Duke, you know, I'm on a visit recently. He ran a four, two, nine. Wow. You know what I'm saying? That's fast. He was wet on me, but he did commit it back and now he's out there.


103.9 FM, W-O-Z-O Radio, Knoxville. Ladies and gentlemen, Digital Freethought Radio Hour. Hello and welcome to the Digital Freethought Radio Hour on W-O-Z-O Radio, 103.9 LP, FM right here in Knoxville, Tennessee. Today is Sunday, March 21st, Sunday, I'm sorry, 2020. I'm Larry Rhodes, or a Doubter 5, and as usual we have our co-host Wombat on the line with us. Hello Wombat. Winter isn't coming anymore, because it's been here, and now we can finally enjoy some spring. Let's go. Spring is coming, summer is coming. Spring is here today, today's first day's spring. Today is the, what, at Cremox? Yeah. And our guests today are George Buffalo and George Brooklyn and Boudreaux. Hello all. Digital Freethought Radio Hour is a talk radio show about atheism, free thought, rational thought, humanism, and the sciences. And conversely we'll also talk about religion, religious faiths, God's holy books and superstition. And if you get the feeling that you're the only non-believer in Knoxville or East Tennessee, well you just not. There are several atheist free thinking and rationalist groups that exist right here in Knoxville, and we'll be telling you more about how you can connect with them right after the mid-show breaks. Also, did you know that there was a streaming atheist call-in video show, slash TV show broadcasting here in Knoxville has been for over 10 years? Did you know that Wombat? You're always bragging about it, but I've never seen WandaVision. I don't want to start new. Okay, well watch it and also watch our atheist TV show. WandaVision is pretty good. If you'd like to use the Facebook and search for our Digital Freethought Radio Hour page and use the messaging function to send us any questions or comments. What's our topic today there, Wombat? So apparently we have a lot of titles for today's topic this week. I want to go through some of the great ones that we came up. It's all the same thing we're going to talk about, but we have different titles for it is what I meant. And so the idea is when can we speak up as atheists with regard to letting religious people know, hey, we don't have to do this religious ceremony. You're on my territory. You're in my home or if this is a public event. Let's show some respect. And so I like the, Eric said, can atheists get a little grace or now bow your heads and pray or else? I like that. There's a lot of catchy titles here. We'll go over them as we go through the show. But that's it. I'd like to lead it forth, Eric. Eric, would you mind talking or Boudre, would you mind discussing this? So are you six feet apart from Buffalo? What's going on here? We're vaccinated. Okay. They said they've been vaccinated. That's good. That's good. All right. Boudre, why am I introducing the topic? Yeah, so this one's just kind of interesting to me. And I think it's going to be interesting to hear what everyone else thinks, because I think it's a nuanced thing where it comes down to, if you ask them, hey, let's not say grace. In this house, because we're not religious, but the other people eating the food are religious. And saying grace doesn't hurt an atheist. So part of me is like, what's the harm? Let's be respectful. Let's let them do their thing. It's not going to change the food in my mind. And again, there's also love to see respect from the other side. Like, couldn't you say grace like in the car ride over, you know, to the food that's in your lap, if you're carrying a casserole dish? You know what I mean? I'm maybe a little facetious there, but is there, like, what's the responsibility? I think it's just disrespectful. Yeah, if they come into your house and they want to practice their religion, it would be like you going to their houses and you can't practice your religion. That's my take on it. I can pay in a picture. So I went to a potluck with friends last, maybe two years ago because of COVID. There's no way it happened last year, right? But I did not realize that a majority of the people that were there were church friends from one of my friends at war church congregation of one of my friends. And so I brought food to this potluck. I am ready to eat some food at this potluck. I'm ready to go. I got my fork. I got my napkins. And then all of a sudden, like this really old dude in, like, you know, a Larry the Cable Guy cosplay, more or less, is like, all right, everybody, we're ready to eat. And I'm like, yeah, I'm getting in line. He's like, all right, everyone bow your heads. And I'm like, no, because I'm ready to eat. I'm cold and I'm ready to eat. I'm in your backyard and I brought food. I brought better food than everybody else here. Black people know how to bring good food at potlucks. I'm just saying, I'm just saying.  So in times like that, I always like to keep my eyes open and scan the room to see. Are there anybody else who are here like me on the same level everyone else has their heads down? And there's like five other people are like, what's going on? And I'm like, I don't know how long this is going to take. He's just like, I don't know. I want to get some of that mashed potatoes, man. I was like, yeah. So at that point, would it I played the scenario in my head. Would it be rude for me to just, you know, start checking stuff on my plate while everyone else is like praying to God? And would they look? I'm not interrupting their prayer, right? Like I'm not saying, hey, I'm not saying you can't pray. I'm just saying, like, you know, I'm hungry. I brought my own food here.  You guys can pray if you want to pray.  Would that be rude or not? I imagine it would not be taken well. But still, why is that? Why is that the world that we live in? George, George, Brooklyn, George, have you ever had a situation like that? Well, yes. And it I mean, it puzzles me. I come from a Jewish background and I'm here. I'm not I'm not in Knoxville. As a matter of fact, for our listening audience and viewing audience, there's only one person on the screen here who is in Knoxville and he just waved his hand. That's Larry. I'm out here in the country. Let me put it that way. And so for me, it's not just that everybody around here is religious. They're all Christian and they're all a certain kind of Christian mostly. Now, if I go out, I go to the supermarket. I find kosher food for sale. There's a kosher kiosk in my local Ingalls market. And now there is a food city that opened up downtown and they've got a little kosher food section. So I'm thinking, where are these Jewish people who are eating this stuff? Where are they hiding? I haven't met any. I've been here for five years. I haven't met any. They just started a meet up. Yeah, but I don't want to because I'm an atheist. Those Jewish people might also be at the same time too. You never know. Well, yeah, but it's like I'm doubly damned in a way. And so I haven't outed myself as an atheist because I'm afraid to, frankly. I mean, a couple of times I've said to people that I'm Jewish. I've gone that far and they have reacted in shock and horror. And I'm not used to that. I'm not used to that. So would you say there's like peer pressure keeping you in these Christian traditions just because you're not afraid, but you can feel that you want to avoid the drama of outing yourself. Yes, I do. I want to avoid the drama. You know, it's like I've come across some some Muslim people here.  You know, what are you into? What kind of food do you like?  Yeah, there is a greatness to America. What is it? It's the diversity of all of us. It's our differences. And I think, yeah, go ahead. I feel like I could totally be more copostetic with Christians if there was just more variety of religions in America. And they all had more of an equal say rather than just one brand of vanilla. And this is the one that's going to be in Congress and the House of Representatives and choosing your own room. Yeah. And it's like, oh, guys, no, no, no, diversify it. Just be aware that like there's a lot of different ideas out there. Yeah. Brooklyn Buffalo. The Asians are certainly saying, you know, the assault on the. You're breaking up. Yeah, you're breaking up. What's and muffled and muffled too. So it would be good if both you and Boudreaux could get closer to your microphone. Well, yeah. Go ahead and check. Yep. Here you go. Yeah. Now finally speaking out. We haven't heard for such a long time about their isolation, basically. I find that very interesting and to listen to their different comments. Yeah. I also feel like this is something that has been said from their community for quite some time and it's not so much that they're finally speaking out, but it's that people are listening. And I think that's also a sign, an alternative sign of growth, because it's not so much just, oh, you guys are finally talking about the violence that are happening to your community. It's like, no, we're finally paying attention to it. Which I think is a really interesting point. Which people are we talking about? Asian community. Oh, yeah. Yeah. But Brooklyn, I'm sorry, Buffalo, did you ever have an experience where you felt peer pressured from just the Christian zeitgeist? Yeah. I've got a couple of different ones that come to mind. One is when we first moved into our new house and so my wife is religious and I'm not. And she goes to the before COVID, she went to this Methodist church and I don't go. I did it first, but I don't go anymore. But anyway, one day there was a knock on the door and it was the pastor of this Methodist church.  And so he came in and he looked around and sat down and he said a prayer. And I didn't say anything because I wanted to avoid the drama. Sure. He's a crazy guy in my house. Also thinking about my wife. Sure. I want to avoid the drama for her because she's very sensitive to drama. So that was the first instance. And interestingly enough, later on I found out that the same pastor was in the house to have a look around because we have a log home and he subsequently built the log home. So I think he was coming and looking for some ideas as well. But anyway, he said the prayers and he blessed our house. And then the other time was when I had my heart surgery. I was in the hospital. I wasn't feeling well. My family was around me. I certainly didn't want to see any strangers. And the sub pastor of the same church showed up to wish us all well. And he started praying there in the room. And I felt, you know, what are you doing here? I don't want you here. How could you just barge in? And I was offended. Like we lost him. He froze up. Okay. He'll come back in a second, hopefully. But I remember him telling the story like he's basically in a bed strapped in. He can talk, but the fact is he's surrounded by his family and he doesn't want to have like a whole argument there with the pastor in the room. And, you know, that speaks, that says a lot about the opportunistic side of when these sort of situations happen. Cause it's always easy to say, you know, as a pastor is like, well, I'm just trying to help you out in the, in the, in the glory and good gracious of God, maybe they actually genuinely would believe that, but it's also a complete lack of. Maybe they don't believe it. And they're just using it for the power. And I would hope that's not, that's, that is still, that's a dirty, dirty move. But even if it wasn't, it's no consent. There's no consent there. Right. I have a cat. Oh, sorry. Go for it. Go for it, George. There's the assumption. Excuse me. There's the assumption that everybody is the way that they are. Yes. You see, and, and they, they act on that assumption and they're not bad people. No. Um, so I'm, I'm puzzled as to how to deal with that. But it happens when you meet so few people that you must think that everyone's like you. It's like when you're in a church, you're not in a very diverse group. You're in a somewhat in a dogmatic single-minded sort of point of view where there's clear structures of power and everyone's looking in the same direction. And when everyone's doing that, they're not seeing behind them or beside them and stuff like that. So the key, the key part of what you just said that stands out to me is that the people do not have experience with people who are different than them. Right. If you spend your entire life in that kind of community, you don't get to meet Muslims or. And I want to say too that it doesn't really matter where a person is. Um, you know, just because I come from New York City doesn't mean that everybody in New York is enlightened. They are not. Um, you know, it's like there are lots of people in New York City whose whole life is revolved around their local subway station. You see, and they've hardly. And you're not talking about the sandwich shop, right? Um, I don't think so, Larry. He's making a joke. Don't take him seriously. I'm sorry. I get very serious. Never ever take Larry seriously.  But really it's almost like they've never been outside their own neighborhood except when they were in the army and got shipped out so much. Yeah. So it's a small city sort of mentality in wrapped around what is generally what I'd like to believe good will. But the problem is you need to have consent to make these things happen. I have a cat. I want to get the story out because I don't want to say I have a cat twice randomly. And people are like, what is he talking about? I have a cat. I can pet a dog whenever I want to pet the dog. The dog is bred to love to be petted. A cat that only wants to be petted when the cat wants to be petted. So when I pet a dog, I'm like, here's the dog. I'm putting my hand on the dog's dog's happy. But for a cat, I have to leave my hand out. And it's up to the cat to decide, yeah, I'll get a pet now. Or no, I'm not into it. And I'll walk away. And it's all about that consensual petting that makes the whole thing good. With a lot of religion, especially pastors, there's just, no, I'm going to pray for you because it's, I'm obligated to do it for you. I'm involved as an agent in this as well. I don't want to hear this prayer. It's all about consent. Yeah. If you'd like to do it remotely, go for it, but don't come into my home and say, I'm here to bless your home. It's like, you could have done that from your apartment. You don't have to do that here. It's like, I'm here to bless your log cabin. I'm here to bless this potluck. You could have done that on the drive over here.  I'm reminded of the inauguration that happened recently with the Bidens rolling. I won't disperse the fact that I was not a fan of Trump. So I'm totally happy that we had a good roll over into the Biden administration, but there are a lot of things that I was watching during that time where it's like, ah, it's so religious. I hope I'm really kind of hung up on this. And I appreciate the fact that like Biden is, you know, America's president first and like he's done like good moves and rolling back, you know, blocked access to abortion and stuff like that. Things that are specifically anti-Catholic. So I'm like, okay, he's looking around. Also, Kamala Harris, you know, she's got that Jewish, married a Jewish guy. She's got a mom that, you know, is not Christian. Dad that is like all these different religious mixed into one person probably doesn't take any of them absolutely seriously. I'm happy about all that, but the inauguration itself had a lot of moments where it's like, and I'm Reverend blah, blah, blah, and I'm here to bless this inauguration. This guy gets married. And I'm like, ah, please move on. He sits down and another pastor stands up and he's doing the second blessing. And I'm like, what's going on? We have to jump out. And Biden has only so many heart beats left. Let's speed this up. He's not a young spring chicken guys. Come on. Hey, what's up? Uh, uh, Dredd Pirate who just joined in Buffalo. Hey, are you back in? Is everything good on your side? Can you hear us? Yes, perfect. Wonderful. We've got a weak signal here. So we're going to leave the video off. That sounds like a great plan. Okay. That sounds good. Dredd. Hey, just for the sake of goodwill, would you mind doing an invocation for us? Because it's kind of, we all consent. Do we all consent to having consent? Okay. Go. Go. We've all consented to have a invocation for this. Yes. Okay. Well, just give me half a second. Okay. Okay. Here we go. Sure. Our noodley lord. Warrant in a colander. Al dente be thy noodles. Thy blood be rum, thy sauce be yum with meat as it is with vegetables. Give us this day our garlic bread and forgive us our cussing as we put up with those who cuss against us and lead us not into ketoism but deliver us some carbs for thine are the noodles and the sauces and the grog. Whatever. Dredd, I want to ask a question. Have you ever prayed for someone who didn't want to be prayed for? No. Why is that important? Would you mind explaining that? Well, certainly I've had people say that they would pray for me and I've said please don't. For one thing, it's hubris to think that you can do somebody a favor by appealing to what you think is your connection to a superior power. And so I wouldn't do it to somebody who didn't want it done and I wouldn't want it done to me by somebody who thinks they can. Okay. It's just a, hey, it's a default pro sort of situation. Like I'm not going to do it to you. Please don't do it to me. It's all about. Well, exactly. And I don't even say, I don't say bless you anymore to people who sneeze because I think it's one of those knee jerk things that people just do without even appreciating why they do it and just really how silly it is. I say praise to the seven and I'm not going to stop doing it. I go to the Seinfeld thing now. You're so good looking. Yeah, we're in that age.  What was your takeaway from that? I helped to finish the story for you but I wanted you to get your final thoughts on that. Well, my takeaway was that minister was very insensitive and that he will be painted that way in my mind forever. Yeah, he showed no sensitivity to the fact that I might not want that just from the point of view of my discomfort at the time. I was physically not comfortable at all. I didn't want any strangers around but he just barged in and started praying. But he was making so many good points with his God at your expense, isn't that? Think of all the brownie points he was making. He probably got like six credibility points with everybody for his God. Isn't that the better, greater purpose? Well, I guess. This same guy one time I ran into him in the hardware store. He came up to me and I was looking for some ant killer the old fashioned kind that has both and you can't hardly buy anymore. And so I was looking for it and he came up to me and he started to talk and I think he said, well, what are you looking for? I said, I'm looking for a war rate based ant killer. And I said, I don't see that they make it anymore. And he says, I said, baby, I'll go and make my own. You know, I've got chemical. I know what the ingredients are. I can look at the internet and he said, I laughed and he says a mad scientist.  And to me, my media thought was he's doing the same thing again. He's making these assumptions. Yeah, that's not a casual thing that you say to people. Yeah. And so again, he's painted forever as a very sensitive person that I don't want to have much to do with it all. That plus making boring is not hard that like if someone was making scrambled eggs, you wouldn't be like, ah, you psychopathic cooker. He's like, no, this is, it's a really easy situation. It's just powders you mix together. What's going on? George, what's going, what's up? What's up? You know this, I'm going to come back to this a number of times. I think something that's been on my mind for some time now is that we generalize. It's human nature to generalize. We have to do it. It's the way we make sense out of the world. We compartmentalize information in our heads and animals do it. And so, George Buffalo, I wanted to ask you what was the context of this person you're talking about? Where were you for one thing? What was your location? Hospital or the hardware store? Hospital bed, and I could hardly move because I just had 5x bypass surgery. Yes. What city was this in? What town? Lexington, in Lexington, Kentucky. Lexington, Kentucky. See, not Buffalo, New York. No, no, no. So Buffalo's got what? Two million people, right? And Lexington's got a whole lot less. And a person's sphere of interaction with other people is much smaller in Lexington, Kentucky, I'm assuming. So this person's world is smaller. The diversity of his experience is smaller. And he has made an assumption about you, which was wrong, but based upon the generalizations that he's made from his own small, contextual universe. That's my point. We're missing. Ty, do you have a minute? Yeah, go for it. The other piece I think we're missing here is they think that doing these things has no penalty. Like it can't hurt anyone. They're doing these things. Eric, that's what I want to talk about. Second half of the show. That is a whole thing I'm setting up for you, baby. But I will say this before we head out to the break. George, yes, he's a product of his environment, but everyone's a product of their environment. It's not the fact that it's ubiquitous that it's OK, right? We all do it. We have to hold ourselves to a higher standard. It's like, yes, it's common, but we also have to treat each other well. Larry, go ahead and say your points and then take us out. OK. I was just going to say a couple of times that religious people have taken advantage of me at just point blank. My second wife and I were both atheists, but her mother wanted us to go to her church. So we conceded and went. The preacher met us in the foyer. He met everybody in the foyer, and he would take your hand and he wouldn't let it go until he was ready to let it go. What? No, I'm not kidding. You could try to pull your hand away and he'd just hold it. Well, this was my first introduction to this, and I let him have it for just a few minutes, and then I stepped back and pulled my hand away, and he held it so hard that he actually dug a channel in my palm. What? I mean, yeah. This was over in Smithwood Baptist in North Knoxville. If anybody is familiar with that, they probably know the pastor. The other time was just when, I mean, we have our atheist meetups.  And he came in and he sat down for about two months every week, he would show up, sit down, and try to convert us to Christianity. Wow. Now, they just feel they got to, I guess, and at least that particular one did. And it was, you know, everybody after, say the second or third week, just stopped talking to him. I mean, we tried to be polite and tried to ask him not to preach to us, totally ignored it, and went on for two months before he finally left. So that's my two examples. I could give you a lot more. I've been an out-atheist for 20 years and a leader in the atheist community. But we'll just hold it there and go on to break. Thanks. This is the Digital Freethought Radio Hour at WZO Radio 103.9 LP FM, right here in Knoxville, Tennessee. And we'll be right back after this short break. Hello and welcome to the Digital Freethought Radio Hour and WZO Radio 103.9 LP FM, right here in Knoxville, Tennessee. Today is Sunday, March 21, 2020. I'm Larry Rhodes, and this is the second half of the show. Let's talk about the atheists of Freethought groups that you can join right here in Knoxville. First, there's the Atheist Society of Knoxville, or ASK, founded in 2002, where in our 19th year, an ASK has now over 1,000 members. We get together on a weekly Zoom meeting during this COVID outbreak. But hopefully, before too long, we'll start meeting back in person again for dinner, drinks, and conversation. You can find us online at KnoxvilleAtheist.org, or you can just go to Meetup or Google and type in Knoxville Atheist. It's just that simple. By the way, if you don't live in Knoxville, you can still go to Meetup and search for an atheist group in your town. Don't find one? Star One! Right. Another large Freethinking group here in Knoxville, the rationalists of East Tennessee, R-E-T. You can find them on Facebook or at rationalist.org. Go there and click on Upcoming Events to find out what they're up to. Earlier in the show, we said we'd talk about Knoxville's Atheist video show while they do it every week, and their archives are on YouTube. Just go to YouTube and do a search for Freethinkers United Coalition of Knoxville or Freethought Forum Knoxville. Freethought Knoxville will get you in either case. With us on the show today, we have Wombat. We have Buffalo and Boudreau. And it's hard to say who it is if they're not on the screen, but with us on the screen, see, Brooklyn. There it is. Hey. There's Dred Pirate. Yay. Okay. And what are we talking about? Where do you want to pick up today? Sign language for fan. And it's always hard to describe sign language over the radio, right? But imagine making a fantastic sign with your hands.  Like you're saying, okay. Yeah. Yeah. It's like you're saying, okay, the fantastic sign. That's a sign for F. If you make a fist with your thumb on the side of your hand, that's an A.  That's how you spell fan. But I want to go over listener feedback today. But before we do that, what a fan. What a fan. What a fan. What a mighty good fan. What a mighty good fan. Cool. Cool. Cool. Cool. All right. So we are going to go over a really great question that we got in the messenger group that we have. This was from our own Boudreau. And he asked, can religious guests always make the argument that grace doesn't hurt atheists? So just let us say it. Basically, hey, it doesn't hurt you for me to pray. So just let me pray. What's the real offense here? And actually, Boudreau, you were alluding to that as like an excuse that you had been given earlier in the show. Would you mind elaborating on that and maybe giving me some advice on what you think is the best query course for that? Yeah. I think really I'm kind of of an open mind here. I'm wondering this because I've done the same thing. Let's see. No. It was a dread mark. I kind of considered stop praying bless you because it seems silly and also seems admitting you believe in it a bit. But it seems rude. I'm so I'm torn. I know I've done a lot of conferences in the south, particularly where right before the big banquet, before the meal, everyone bows their heads. And I do the same thing. I look around to see how many cool people are in the room. Yeah. Yeah. I do that at work. I've done that a lot. And I've gotten nods.  You know, whatever. They probably, you know, but I don't know. I struggle with it because I don't know because one is, is a you're doing something saying grace. And the other is you're not doing it. It's really hard for me to say you can't say grace or, you know, do it.  Don't say it out loud. It just it's hard for me to say that because that seems, it doesn't seem to be the right tactic. I think you need, there needs to be a middle ground. Maybe I don't know. That's why I'm asking you guys. I'm curious with you guys. Judd Pirate, we'll go with you first. What's your thoughts? And I'll try to speak more quietly because I am inside a car here. So that's why the game so high. He always starts with an apology. Isn't that great? It wouldn't be. But in British Columbia, there was a lot of treaty nation. So, you know, everyone tends to start these meetings with an acknowledgement of the unceded grounds of one tribe or another. And some of these bigger conferences, of course, they'll have an elder come in to do a blessing. And I find that offensive myself because it's just, you know, it's just trading Christianity for another form of spiritualism, which I do not agree with.  I don't. And I do that at the expense of looking really, really out of place. But I sense, of course, that there are others that feel the same way, but go with the crowd and stand up in spite of themselves, not wanting to look out of place. But I just won't have it myself. Good for you. Great points. Brooklyn, George, you want to win? Yes, got a short one and a long one. The short one is that I just keep quiet. I just don't say anything. You know, let them. That's a short one. Yeah, that's a show. And the long one is a funny one. This is a funny one.  And so I was waiting, you know, to go into the operation and my atheist friend said, I'll pray for you. And we both burst out laughing. And then after it was all over, I was still partially under the anesthetic. A nurse rolled me out in a wheelchair to her car and helped me get into the car. And then I'm told this is what I did. The nurse said to me, have a blessed day. And I replied, F you. Classic story. That's my long one. Larry, I'd like to see what your opinion is on this. The harm in what is there if someone said, Hey, what's the harm in just asking you to pray with me over the food that you cooked Larry, like what's. It would be the equivalent to me saying, don't pray and stay silent with me. I mean, he's got a right to practice his own religion, but he doesn't have to force it on me. Right. And if he wants to like pray in my presence, he can do it in his head. If he wants to do it out loud, then he shouldn't mind if I walk away or do something else while he's doing it. Right.  I think back to that potluck and, you know, I was happy to not make a scene.  It sucks when you're putting that kind of situation, but it's also like such a, a position of such an easy privilege. It's such an easily privileged. It's just like, of course you would want to pray with me. Of course everyone here is a Christian. And if they're not, well, they're going to do it anyway because this is my home and you brought food to my home to eat at my place. So I have the advantage here, but it's like, if I knew that I wouldn't have probably come. And if you, and if I ever cook food and I'm inviting other people to come to eat at my place and someone says, hey, I would like for everyone to bow their heads and pray. And I was like, no, you're in my place. Don't do that. I want to speak up in that point. But I hear, here's where I eerily draw the line because I have gone, for example, to a home with a bunch of Native Americans. And they said, hey, we have a thing that we do before we eat. And I'm like, I am fascinated by this. I absolutely want to be a part of this. I want to hear it. They asked me those. And I'm like, yes. But it was like this. It was like a prayer, but it was more of like, hey, for the food that we have, for the friends that we have, for the family that we have, we're thankful. And then they just ate. And I'm like, that is a great thing to say. In Japan, they also have a phrase that they, they offer before they eat food, which is more, which is akin to, I humbly accept this food. And it's commonly understood that everybody says that before they eat, even if it's just a quick little thing. And I'm like, that's fine too. Like, if it's a cultural thing, I'm good with it. If it's a, if it's a novel experiment experience, I'm fine with it. But if it's a thing that is so clearly dogmatic and, and tied to like a specific God, and it's assumed that you believe in that God too, and that you have to do it because I'm not asking you. I felt like that's the draw line. It's a lot of nuance there, but basically don't force me to do it. Another word is unsophisticated. Unsophisticated. Yeah, they're giving no thought to what they're doing. You know, the Indians thank the animals that they've killed before giving them something to eat.  On the bless you thing, the way I look at it is, if I say anything, I, like George, I remain quiet. When somebody says bless you when I sneeze, if I say anything, I'm just becoming a purveyor of their religion. I would like, I'd like to add something to that because one thing I like about this discussion is that each of us is coming at this, from a personal standpoint, each one of us has offered a unique perspective and I have to respect that. I have a woman who's been helping me and she is a case manager for my insurance company.  Now, if a person says that to me sometimes, I feel I will give this person no quarter. Can I, can I throw something out just as a... Yeah, yeah. There is a perceived monopoly on words that I don't think is justified. And I would say like Christians don't own the word chariot. They don't own the word congregation. They don't even own the word Lord. They borrowed that from like medieval times when there was like a Lord of properties and they just applied that to a God because they needed a word for that. But like Lord chariot, bless, I don't think they own that word either and I feel like our increasing obstinacy, use that word only gives them more ammunition without a reasonable fight and I feel like why give them that? Well, let me continue. I have grown to know this person and I mean a little bit, we've had a number of conversations on the phone and I've grown to like her and that changes the whole bowl game because I will cut her some slack. If she says have a blessed day in her voicemail, that's okay, that's okay, you know. She's just doing it from her whatever background she's got. She's a genuinely nice person and helpful.  A situation like that, a friend of mine just responds, that's sweet. Yeah. You know, like thank you for saying that but without agreeing that it's a religious context. Yeah, that's a midpoint. I would say like there would be way less stress if I just did not connotize that with a religion thing and if someone says bless me, it's like yeah, because I don't want to get sick or like maybe it's a nice thing to sneeze. I'm fine with it. It's not like they pull out a Bible and I know other atheists who say bless you when you sneeze and it's like not a big deal and if people are like having a conversation where it's like bless you and then the one atheist in the room is like, F you for saying that. I'm like, oh no, you're making us all look bad. Let me go out of my way to say hey, I'm an atheist and I also say bless you and that guy's crazy. What this guy? But yeah, yeah, yeah. I hope you get better too. But yeah, I think we got to watch our reputation. That's all. Yes. There's a perceived perception issue here. One of the original atheists who got a reputation was a woman named Madeleine Murray O'Hare and she found that an organization which is still very big in this, in the atheist business, let me say. And she was a very obnoxious woman, you know? And it's like what you're saying, Terrone, what kind of reputation has she laid on all the rest of us? You know? She was guilty, right? Yeah, I believe so and probably the person who did it did us all a favor, you know? Larry, you happen to know some things about this lady as well. Did you want to win? Which lady is that? Madeleine Murray O'Hare. Oh yeah. We have heard to think through the fact that she pretty much got prayer taken out of school. And of course, the religious challenged that all the way up to the Supreme Court but the Supreme Court upheld it. So no more praying in school from the authorized or the authority figure, the teacher, the administration, you can't do that anymore. However, whenever somebody says there is no prayer in school, let's just silly, there will be prayer in school as long as there are tests. But she's responsible for an awful lot of the good, I mean, the advancement that atheists have made in America and if you're not familiar with Madeleine Murray O'Hare, I would look her up and see all of the action that she did. She also created the American Atheist Organization. That's what I was talking about. Yeah. I think it's also important to highlight, this goes back straight into Bujo's question, like what harm does it cause? Why don't you just let us say it? It's because there's so many unilateral protections put onto very specific religious groups that aren't evenly distributed to anybody else. Such that when someone says, what's the harm of me saying it? Well, these rights or the privileges that you're using aren't being given to anybody else. So for me to kowtow to just allow you to do what you want because there's no perceived harm, isn't the same measure of protection that we're giving to anybody else and just only serves to benefit you? You don't have to look any farther than like the county seats that are invocations. They're like 100% Christian and usually Protestant Christian, particularly in the South. And I'm sure Dred Pirate can chime in here to try to be able to get a different sect of any kind of religion to give the invocation. It's just heresy to them. They won't allow it generally. We've got to go to public opinion here in Knoxville and surrounding counties to get our invocation done. And Dred, we'll throw this to you because I think it's really important because when you start giving so many privileges to one religion, that one religion becomes the de facto judge on who also gets to have religious pillar villages. And that's a really, really bad loop. You don't want to have that. You want to speak on that, Dred? Well, one thing I would certainly like to point out is that as I mentioned about the Native Americans or indigenous peoples, this move towards sort of invocating or making invocations at the beginning of meetings, if you don't participate or if you don't agree with it, you're seen as a colonialist. And that is a colonialist. Yeah, so you're painted as an Indian hater essentially or a racist because they don't separate these things. The separation of their spiritual beliefs, by all means have them, but don't impune me because I don't participate on the grounds that I don't believe in spiritualism or I don't believe in the great spirit or the ancestors or all that crazy stuff, blood and soil. I don't believe in that stuff.  Is that a Canadian thing? Because I've never heard of that word until today. I know what a colonialist is, but I didn't know it was a derogatory term until today. It is, absolutely. And certainly, I work with community foundations. So I had a pretty strong occasion to sense that when I was at a conference in Ottawa where it was really around reconciliation and that if you weren't full on board with reconciliation and making the clear distinction that there is indigenous and non-indigenous people and if you're non-indigenous, you owe every indigenous person an apology and a duty to participate in their spiritualism. And no, I'm just not buying it. So yes, in Canada it seems to me that it's pretty strong, especially in British Columbia because there's so many small nations and tribes that are unresolved treaty nations. So it's pretty big in BC. Geez. I do want to flip this on its head real quick because we're getting towards the end of the show. I don't want to just continue to bash on religion. I know atheists or non-religious topics have a tendency to pick topics of conversation or derail conversations in ways that the people at the table did not consent to either. There have been, for example, the guys who are like, hey, I want to talk about politics. Can you believe what's going on with XYZ?  We're playing, we're bowling or like we're doing work. We don't want to talk about politics or people who'd like to do, hey, let me tell you about my stocks and how they're doing. I don't want to talk about your money. The last thing I do is think about money, your relationships or whatever issues you're having with them or politics and then religion. Those are like the four taboos of social conversation. But have you had experience, just so we can contextualize this for religious people who might be watching the show, have you had experience? We'll go with Larry first with topics that are not religiously based but are being pushed on you on a non-consensual basis. Man, I wish there was an exit plan here because I don't want to have this conversation with you. But the other guy totally wants to have that conversation with you. Oh, sure. I can't really come up with any right off the top of my head. But the ones that you mentioned come to mind. I'm talking about people talking about insurance, talking about their work. Specifically, my brother was really bad about talking about his work. And I mean, he yelled me on a phone conversation one time for two hours talking about his work. You can't have Larry on the phone for two hours. He's thinking about video games at that point. You might hear a toilet flush in the background. Sure, it happens. Dred, you raised your hand. Did you want to talk about a conversation you've been forcing to? Well, of course, over the last year, it's really COVID conspiracies. Oh, yeah. And I am so done and tired of hearing people. I don't know anyone that died from it. Yeah, stop already. I mean, in certain situations, it would be a great opportunity to do an SE. But in a lot of occasions, it's not.  But just to lay it on me, oh, there's COVID, blah, blah, blah. It's like, stop already. I just turn around and I walk away. Good for you. Good for you. George, Buffalo and Boudreau, did you guys have a topic that you were very forced into and did not want to have that conversation? But it was almost unconsensually pushed on you. I got one kind of ties a little bit to Dreadpire, but specifically against the vaccine. Like the people that are like, no, I'm going to wait until it's safe or, you know, I don't know if I really need it. It's just like, you are just not helping one bit. You're just, you know, if you don't want the vaccine, just don't talk about it. You've got to stop spreading bad information. And on the flip side, so we have been lucky in our job where a lot of people are getting vaccinated just due to the nature of our work. But there are people who clearly don't want to be vaccinated. And I've had one-on-one conversations with them and it's always a different excuse each time. Typically it's like, well, I just don't want to get sick. It's like, oh, I'm too busy at my work. I can't really walk away from, you know, pushing this button and having to do a three-hour test with no interaction for me whatsoever. Or just like, yeah, allergies are coming up and I don't want a complex, you know, headache or anything like that, bad time of the month, whatever. Oh, it makes me upset. But yeah, I get that. Buffalo, did you want to win? I just wanted to say I heard a good comment. The best comment I've heard on this, from a actually a African-American minister was asked, well, what do you do to get past the resistance of your congregation, you know, with things in mind like the Tuskegee experiment and all that stuff? Yeah. But he says, well, he says, I just tell him, do you want to cough or do you want to cough it? Oh, I like that. Cool. George, Buffalo, it's Brooklyn George. You guys got to get different names. I'm George Brown, the two and a half.  No, he stopped. He stopped doing it. He stopped. Really? Your podcast? No, no, no, no, it was when the Baptist church said that flying a Confederate battle flag was racist and you shouldn't do it. Oh, and he changed his mind? He took down his Confederate battle flag. This was about four years ago. I think this happened. He has never said anything about believing in that particular branch of baptism. But he just, the flag vanished. Nice. And it has not been seen since. George, I want you to think about something that you can plug before we close the show today. Dred Pirate, is there, what's going on with you and what would you like to plug? Also, where can we get access to that PDF disclosure that the judge gave you from a couple of weeks back? Don't forget to put yourself off me, my friend. Yeah, sorry about that. So what do we do? I'm sorry. I apologize. You guys, how do you know who's Canadian? It's almost religious. So I can be found on Mine Pirate, M-I-N-D-P-Y-R-A-T-E on YouTube. And what I'll do is I'll post it as, I think I can put it up as a file there, right? In the comments sections?  Here's a story that went through. Yeah. And what I'll do is I'll make a short video as an introduction to the whole thing so people can find me on there. So, and please subscribe if and when you do go. Nice. Thank you. Cool. Hey, Boudreau, tell me something cool that we should check out before next week. What do you think? Oh, I got a good one. Oh. I'm going to need you to promise me that you won't listen to this when you're tired. Okay. I don't want you to fall asleep. All right. Oh, no. It's our boy. Hello. Sam Harris. Sam Harris? And Bingo was his name. He's taken all of his thoughts on free will and put them into one podcast. And I'm telling you guys, if you're for it or against it or believe in it or not, listen to the podcast. It is fabulous. And it gets into morality. It gets into why it's important for us to admit there's no free will. Please listen to it. Are you asking us, you're asking us to choose to listen to this podcast, how there's no free will. Is that what you're asking? And actually that, that is what I'm joking. Some of us will and some of us won't. And it's already pretty determined. Why are you asking us to do it? If it's already. Is that on the, is that the Sam Harris site then? I'll put the link at actually tie. He addresses that exact issue on the podcast about why that is not a paradox. Put the link in the messenger group and we'll post it with the show. Yeah. Okay. Buffalo George. Anything that you'd recommend we check out before next week? Not particularly. Cool. It's been a very interesting week. I'm sorry, George. Buffalo from Brooklyn. What's your thing that you would recommend? I had something on my mind and I can't remember it now. I'm sorry. I'll remember it next week. I picked up a really great book over the last month called you won't believe what happened to Lacey. It's a book by a comedian named Amber Ruffin. She's the only black and only female late night show host on NBC. She's got a show called the Amber Ruffin show and she wrote a book with her sister who they were both raised in Omaha, Nebraska and they were chronicling all the random funny stories that happened to them that involve racism. You might think, oh no, that's sad. It's like she's a really great comedian. She frames everything in a hilarious point of view. And two, it's good to be uncomfortable. It's about stuff like this. And so the book is called you can't believe what happened to Lacey. She's promoting it on her show, but what I'd really recommend is that you check out Amber Ruffin's YouTube channel. It's on Peacock NBC. But Amber Ruffin show is really great. If you see the Seth Meyers show and you like Seth Meyers, she's the lead writer on that show. And a lot of the judges spell it. Are you FFIN? She's the she's Amber Ruffin. Are you FFIN? She's the lead writer on that and a lot of the funny stuff happens when she comes on the show and plays as a character and set her and her are both playing back off each other. It's really great. Larry, you know, I keep having this problem. You say I should check out this thing called atheism. And I'm like, you know, I have a car already. And it's a really nice car. I don't know what you mean by atheism. Is that a new model car? Maybe I just don't know what it's all about. Talk to me. Perhaps you could find a book that says what it's all about. My book is called atheism. What's it all about? And it's available on Amazon. My own content, generally for the book and otherwise, is on digitalfreethought.com. Be sure to click out the blog button if you go there. We also have our show archive, Atheist Songs, and many articles on the subject. My YouTube channel is under Larry S. Rhodes. If you have any questions for the show, this radio show, you can learn from this podcast. You can send them to askanatheist at Knoxvilleatheist.org and we'll answer them on future shows. If you're having trouble leaving religions behind, you can find help at recoveringfromreligion.org. And if you're watching this on YouTube, be sure to like and subscribe. This has been the Digital Freethought Radio Hour.  The time to worry about it is when they prove that heavens and hells and souls are real. Until then, don't sweat it. Enjoy your life, and we'll see you next week. Say bye, everybody. Bye, everybody. Bye-bye.