We demystify what goes on behind the therapy room door. Join us on this voyage of discovery and co-creative conversations. This is The Therapy Show, behind closed doors podcast, with Bob Cook and Jackie Jones. Welcome back to the next episode, episode 129. And this is part four of book recommendations or the books that we like to do with transactional analysis. And other subjects. Absolutely, not all around transactional analysis. So welcome to The Therapy Show, behind closed doors, with me, Jackie Jones and the wonderful Mr. Bob Cook. And this is one of your favourite books, I think, Bob Cook. It is. And it's nearly at 130. When you said 129, I often get staggered when you say this is a book, whatever, 164, not there yet, but it's 127 or 67 or whatever it is. Because the last two years or whatever has gone by so quickly, I think, are we really it? Are we really podcast 129? Anyway, I just wanted to say that. Well, it's just 52 weeks in a year. That's 104 is two years, and we're nearly up to 130. So we're like two and a half years in now, Bob. It goes past so quickly. And gosh, where's the time gone? But this book, yes, one of my favourites, the art and science of relationship, the practice of integrative psychotherapy. So it's by Richard G. Erskine, Richard Erskine, and Janet Morizond. And Richard Erskine, we all know of, I think, because he's written so many books now, I think he's written over 11 or 12 books, and he's the founder of this type of integrative psychotherapy. And Janet Morizond is, I don't know if they're actually still in touch with each other, but they were very, she came in a lot to his work, and they co-authored this book. It came out about seven years ago, I think. I mean, this is a second edition. So we're going back to about 2015, aren't we, for the first edition. The second edition I like better, really, because it's got a really good forward and some of the chapters have been extended, etc., etc. It was written purposely as a textbook for the American market, the universities and the colleges. So it is a textbook. It's the complete works of integrative psychotherapy per Richard Erskine's influences. So his take on integrative psychotherapy is quite different from many other versions of integrative psychotherapy. So, for example, if I meet somebody who says they're an integrative psychotherapist, I will always ask, which integrative model are you referring to? Because there's quite a few. This one is really Richard Erskine's take on integrative psychotherapy, which is different from some other people's take on integrative psychotherapy. You see, when I first came into this whole business in 1984, stroke 85, the sort of major buzzword around psychotherapy or counselling, where I went on a counselling course in 1984, was what was called eclectic counselling or eclectic psychotherapy. And what that meant was that there would be, if the model of counselling or psychotherapy right back then was coming from eclectic framework, it would be many different tools you would take and you would use these many different tools. Yeah, a bit like a jigsaw. Nowadays, I think that word has been superseded by integrative. So you can talk to many integrative psychotherapists in the UK and if I said to them, well, what do you mean by integrative psychotherapy? They would say, well, I've just said to you, oh, we take many tools from many different models. So we take tools from psychosynthesis, take tools from counselling, take tools from transaction analysis, take theories from Gestalt, XXXX, and we use them integratively. That's probably what the answer might well get back. If you asked many of the therapists in the United Kingdom what they meant by integrative, yes? And Richard Erskine's take takes us a bit further. So he, primarily he saw integrative psychotherapy or put it another way round. He saw integration as the curative factor. So in other words, the idea that a therapist would help the client take back the fragmented cutoff parts of the self and help them integrate those different parts of the self which they've blocked off or denied through trauma, etc. into a hole would be how he saw integration. I'm glad you've clarified that, Bob, because that's what I see as integration, that last part that you've said. I didn't know that integration also covers like taking parts of different therapies or whatever. I just think of it as integrating the self. Yeah, so we're, and these, so it's got two threads. The basic what we've just said there, and also integrative psychotherapy, Richard Erskine's style is also borrowing from self psychology, influenced by transaction analysis, influenced by Gestalt, influenced by some of the great writers. So, you know, Richard would also say, yeah, that's a dimension of integrative psychotherapy and, you know, integration of the self is what we're really talking about when we're talking about this type of integrative psychotherapy. Yeah. So he put together a whole model and he's put all the theories, methods in this book I'm holding up, but I realize people who aren't on YouTube won't see it, but it's a great book. The art and science of relationship, the practice of integrative psychotherapy. So in all these chapters, he talks about the different theories of integrative psychotherapy and the methods of integrative psychotherapy and how you do it. Sounds like a good book. In one book. Yeah. So the personality model of integrative psychotherapy he borrows from transaction analysis. So he borrows parent, adult, child as the major model that underpins the whole theme of integration. Because what do you think Richard Erskine did the four domains of the self? Yes. Yeah, it's in this book. Yeah. So yeah, what Jack is referring to is a model of the personality called four domains of the self, which are, you know, emotional, behavioral, thinking, physiological, as a model of the self. And it's in this book. So that links into what you were saying earlier about integrating the self, the different parts of our self or what. Yeah. The cognitive part. When people talk about integrative psychotherapy. Yeah. The cognitive part, the emotional part, the behavioral part and the physiological part. I think you've missed out the spiritual part, but you know, that's another story. And that's in this book as well as the PAC model, as well as the central methods of integrative psychotherapy, which he talks about, which is inquiry, attunement, involvement, as well as other theories like script, which again is borrowed from TA by the way. And then what he calls a keyhole model, which basically comes from all different other parts for integration is always at the center of this therapy. It's a great book. That book when it's talking about the art and science of relationships, is it talking about relationships as in partners, husbands and wife, or is it talking relationships as in, you know, communication and connecting with anybody and everybody? Second part. Okay. Right. Yeah. Connection, communication relating to others. And if it was here, he'd probably say, don't forget, Bob, to say the relationship with the self. The most important relationship we have. Yeah. He'd say that. He'd say, Bob, tell them. Tell them now. Tell them now. What we're really referring to is the relationship with the self. I love that. If that's what he talks about a lot, then I think I'd get on with him because that is the most important relationship. Absolutely. Yeah. That's what he says. And of course, the external world of the self, that's what you just talked about, connection and communication, is external manifestation of internal phenomena. In other words, how we act externally is a manifestation of what's happening on the inside of us. Interesting. Yeah. So in other words, the decisions we have made internally about ourselves and other people get played out in life, relationships and connection with other people. So that's the external world. Yeah. Now, how we externalize, if you want to put it that way, is a manifestation of what we've decided internally. Yeah. They go together. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. Which again, links into the script he's talking about. Yeah. Yeah. That's right. So what we've decided on internal level and our survival decisions in respect to trauma, et cetera, et cetera, is the moving light or the external manifestation. It's what happens on the inside, which guides our external communications, not the other way around. Yeah. Yes. Which often that's what people believe is it's the people, places and things outside that make us feel the way that we do inside and it's not, it's the opposite. It's completely, completely opposite. Our external world is guided by the decisions, the traumas of the internal world. Yeah. So how have we realized that? Yeah. Ah, that's another story. When we're working clinically, when clients realize that, there's usually big aha moments. Yeah. Because then real therapy starts happening actually, because then people start really reflecting on the inner world and the choices they've made and they start taking ownership of responsibility of the self and realize probably for the first time maybe that actually they can do something different and take charge of their own destiny rather than putting it on somebody else. Absolutely. That's made me quite emotional, Bob, you saying that, because that to me is the biggest aha moment that I had when I realized that it was all coming from inside me. I was projecting everything out rather than the outside world out to get me. Yeah, very moving. I can see you moved and very true. Yeah, absolutely. And when clients get to that part, real therapy starts to happen. But getting to that part actually is another story as well. Oh, it's a journey, Bob. Certainly a process, never an event. Yes. Isn't it? So this book, The Art and Science of Relationship, The Practice of Integrative Psychophobic Bioskine and Rosand, is a wonderful book. I would say he's written or co-edited 11 books. I've got them all, by the way, because I've he's been a mentor of mine for a very long time. And in fact, I've reviewed a couple of his books and in fact, I've written some recommended some reviews on these books. Anyway, but this book is where all his theories are together in one place. Wow. And that's what I would always recommend to other people, because I was thinking about, shall I talk about one of his most well-known books, which is Beyond Empathy, which is probably the book that's sold the most. But you know, if you were wanted to book where all his theories are in one place, and it's very accessible to read, he'd buy this book. Yeah. That's another, are you costing me a fortune, Bob? Because that's another one that I'm putting on my list of books that I need to purchase. It is a fantastic book. It's a textbook, though. So you're dipping it. That's an introduction of Integrative Psychotherapy and what I'm talking about. But also for further students who want to take this further, this book without this book, I would say lost, but this really is the major cornerstone where all these theories are in one place. Yeah. And speaking about books and buying them and everything, I think it's really important to continue learning after you've qualified. I'm quite specific over the books that I do like, because I know some of them, I'll just put them on my shelf and I'll never read them. So it's really good for me listening to you and the recommendations that you have and the type of books that they are. You're kind of opening the covers for me. But there's a couple that you've said that I'm definitely going to go and buy. Oh, good. I was 40 just before I was 39, 40 when I got my clinical accreditation in transaction analysis after sort of five or six years. Maybe I was 40. I'm not quite sure when I passed my clinical exams. But I didn't meet Richard Erskine till I just got my clinical exams. So I started to get interested in integrative psychotherapy after my first love, which was transaction analysis. So integrative psychotherapy came after, in terms of influence me personally, came after my clinical training in transaction analysis. Now, Richard Erskine's first training, by the way, we did train in some gastro-psychotherapy with Fitz Pearls. So is how he's about 81 now. He managed to do some training Fitz Pearls, who was the originator of gastro-psychotherapy. But he started thinking about integration in one of his first articles in 1973. But he started to write all these books I'm talking about much later from 1988. And this book, I think, 2015, but hard by this present edition, which is in 2022. It is good to know about because a lot of the books that I've got on my shelf are books that have been around for an awful long time. Whereas that one, yes, in 2022, that's like just a couple of years ago, but it was written in 2015, which is quite recent. So for people that have come in through their training now, I would imagine that's quite good to go for a recent book. Yes, we know, or we need to know all the background.  But it's good to know that books are still being written now for transactional analysis. Right. So if you're interested in psychology, this interesting book, if you just started Integrative Training, albeit a method, another version of integrative psychotherapy or not, it's an interesting book. If you're a student of Richard Erskine's ideas on integrative psychotherapy, it's a vital book. So it's certainly a modern book. Written by a past master, by the way, he's 82 now. So he goes right back to training, I think, for about a year of Fritz Pearls. He always told me he missed meeting Eric Byrne by like five minutes or something or other. If he was here, he'd probably have another story about it. But he does talk about he missed actually meeting Eric Byrne. But Eric Byrne's had a big influence on Richard Erskine because he's borrowed the paired adult child as the major model. Even though you're right, he's got other models as well. Integration is the curative factor. That's where we're heading with this model. Yeah. See, I'm fascinated when I hear you talking. One, the fact that you've met these people, I think he's brilliant. But also, the daddies of psychotherapy today, and there's a lot of them that are still alive. Richard Erskine's life. I'll tell you who else Richard Erskine has really influenced by. Carl Rogers. Carl Rogers' colleague, and I can't remember his name, but a really well-known person, was Richard Erskine's supervisor for a while. And Richard Erskine was- I thought he was just a person-centered entity. Did he do persons- Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So Richard Erskine was very influenced. And you can see that in his major methods of an integrative psychotherapy has a very client-centered feel to it. Yeah. It might be good if we did a podcast on all these people and just what the ideas were, and kind of bringing them all together somehow. Yeah. We could call it the history and influences of modern psychotherapy or something. Yeah. Or the history of psychotherapy. So what would you say there's what 10, 15, 20 major players in this? Oh, much more.  I'm not going to go back to religious healing, which was before Freud. I think I'd go back to Freud, who's probably the originator in the sense of what we're talking about here. And that, of course, was psychoanalysis, because he was the father of psychoanalysis. In his books, really, hysteria and various other books, we could go back to 1888 when hysteria was actually published. I would say psychoanalysis. And the people that surrounded him, young, even though Freud and young split up and they sort of fell out. There was forensic, which is another cycle. You've got a psychoanalytical sort of school from about 1888 onwards. Young came along a bit later in various provisions. And then what happened was the psychotherapy came out of the psychoanalytical tradition. Probably in the 1930s, 40s, were people like Harry H. Sullivan, Paul Fadern, Fairbrother, and various other people. No, but I better stop this because it'll go on forever. Yeah, but it's definitely a good title for a podcast, the history of psychotherapy. Because if you look at people like Fritz Perls, the originator of Gestalt's psychotherapy, if you look at people like Eric Byrne, the originator of transaction analysis, if you look at people like Carl Rogers, the archetype of client-centered psychotherapy, and then ask yourself, who were those people's therapists and early influencers? Go back to psychoanalysis. Do you know what amazes me, Bob, when I hear people like you talking about things like this, that the textbooks and the books that we all refer back to, you could write a book now that would be on everybody's bookshelves. I probably could in terms of this, yeah. Do you know what I mean? It's like the history of it all. It was created by a person, just like you or me, and we're all using that in our training now. It fascinates me how it all evolves. I might even call it the Merino effect, because you could say that most psycho therapies today in the humanistic tradition go back to Merino, who was the originator of play therapy. Yeah. The early, but then you'd have to go back again to Freud, probably. I think supposedly everything goes back to Freud, but Merino, of course, was probably responsible for the creation of what we call two-chair work today, then Fritz Pearl's pinched his actionistic techniques, and then Eric Byrne took Fritz Pearl's ideas. We could go on and on. It'd be interesting to do like a family tree of it all and where it all comes from, and how it all filters down to what we've got today. But yes, the other thing I mentioned in the training that I did over the weekend was how many different sorts of psychotherapy and counselling that there are, and there's so many of them now. 100, 100. Yeah. And what's his name? I've forgotten his name, quite well known, Raiden or Bryden. Oh, it doesn't really matter. He came up with 566, but that book was about seven or eight years ago. But if you're going to talk, you're going to get easily into 500, 600 different types of therapeutic books, counting all the Reiki book and the spiritual psychotherapy books, and we could go on and on, but we're easily going to go well into the hundreds. But this episode started off looking at the art and science of religion. Great book, seriously. Get back to that book. If you're interested in integration, any form or sense by that book? Yeah.  So thank you so much. Do you want to do more on books? Let's go back to some other topics and then come back later to some more. Anybody says that they want us to do a review on it? Yeah. Let's see that first. Talking about next time is how to present ourselves in the therapy room. And does it really matter? Now, that. I know I chose this time. You know, I really like that one, by the way. I love it because I, yes, I don't think I'm what people typically think of as a psychotherapist. I certainly don't. Now that would be interesting podcast because according to your script and according to your history, culture and everything that goes from that, you'll have your own projections on what is a sort of psychotherapist or a correct psychotherapist. Yeah. Absolutely. Yeah. I'm looking forward to that one, Bob. So until next time. See you. See you then. See you soon. Bye. Bye. You've been listening to the therapy show behind closed doors podcast. We hope you enjoyed the show. Don't forget to subscribe and leave us a review. We'll be back next week with another episode.