So for those listening, I want to invite you to think of your day and think of the ways that you do participate in neoliberal capitalism, such as buying something on Amazon, for example, or going into a corporate grocery store chain, or, you know, getting into a vehicle that you bought in a corporate car place, right?  However, if you offer eggs to your neighbor when they come over and knock on the door, or you give a ride to a friend, right? That's the sharing economy, or the gift economy, right? You go into your public library, right? That's the sharing economy as well, a tool library in your neighborhood, or a worker cooperative grocery store, right? That would be the solidarity economy, or the new economy, right? If any of your energy comes from a renewable energy cooperative, right? So there's all these different economies that we participate in and co-create every day. Duncan is my guest on this episode of Inside Ideas, brought to you by 1.5 Media Innovators Magazine and sponsored by the Alohas Regenerative Foundation. Della is a renegade economist who supports individuals as a right livelihood coach, helps transition businesses as a post-capitalist consultant, and hosts the upstream podcast challenging mainstream economic thinking through documentaries and conversations, including the green transition, the problem with green capitalism, and the myth of freedom under capitalism. Della is also the creator and co-teacher of the Cultivating Regenerative Livelihoods Program and co-teacher of the Economics Dimension Course at Gaia Education, founded at Gaia Education with his wife, sadly passed away years ago. A work that reconnects facilitator, the Course Development Manager of Professor Dr. Fritzhoff Capra courses on the Systems View of Life. I'm also an alumni of the Capra courses and no Della from there and many other circles, and a founding member of the California Donut Economics Coalition, a senior fellow of the Social and Economic Equity at the London School of Economics, a Gross National Happiness Master Trainer, and a senior lecturer at the California Institute of Integral Studies. I know Della, I could probably go on a lot longer because you've done a lot of amazing things and actually I'm so excited we could finally have this time to meet. Welcome to the podcast and thanks for coming and being here. Thank you so much for having me. You have an amazing life and you've got much more ahead of you. You've been in a lot of great circles, Fritzhoff Capra, Schumacher College, Gaia Education, Bhutan at the Center for Gross National Happiness and you call yourself a renegade economist and I know I've heard you explain it many times before. Let's explain it first as we start off here for our listeners if you don't mind. Yeah, so the frame renegade economist is something that I heard Kate Reworth described as. So Kate Reworth founder of Donut Economics, she was called a renegade economist and so I really appreciated that frame and said I aspire to be a renegade economist too. But what it means to me more generally is that when we go upstream from the challenges of our time, political, economic, social, ecological, I think there's some very real challenges relating to our economic system, particularly relating to assumptions underlying mainstream economic thinking as well as the practices operating values of our current dominant economic systems. So to be a renegade economist is to challenge those assumptions, to critique them and to seek and uplift systemic alternatives. You also have right to livelihood coach or mentor, facilitator, explain that to us. Yeah, I got into Buddhism from a path of actual mik mindfulness. I was experiencing some anxiety and difficulty and I went to a therapist and they said have you tried mindfulness? So at first mindfulness was a very self focused kind of calming nerves and anxiety way of relating to it. But once I started to go to mindfulness retreats, I went to one with Joanna Macy, the root teacher of the work that reconnects and I was kicked off the cushion into a path of engaged spirituality or spiritual activism. And that includes the whole eightfold noble path, not just one right, right mindfulness. And one of the other elements of the right for the eightfold noble path of Buddhism is right livelihood. So in my understanding, it's really taking our spirituality or our values off the cushion and into our livelihood into our lives into what we do, what we offer, how we contribute to the world. So I deeply love this frame resonate with it of cultivating a path of right livelihood. And I've been on that journey for myself helping to align my work with values, but also helping to empower others to feel more aligned in their work and values and also to be able to contribute to the challenges of our time. I absolutely love what you do. I love where you've been, the groups and circles not only want to read your biography and there's honestly for the listeners there's much more we could talk about. You've kind of followed a path path of bliss where you that seems to me as an outsider looking in that you've picked the things that have value and meaning to you, your passion that you love and then you've gone there. You've studied with the masters, read the greats and participated in those and actually been surrounded by some pretty fabulous people not only in the economic space but in the ecological movements in the space of systems and Buddhism and compassion and gross national happiness and different thought models that are actually kind of saying how can we have a better future, a better world. It's funny because you mentioned Joanna Macy and I have a book of hers right here coming back to life from Joanna Macy right here next to my desk. And I think to be surrounded by thought leaders and these great authors and future thinkers Satish Kumar from Schumacher College and that is just amazing. Do you also feel fortunate or was that pretty much a guided or structured method? They say no this is how I want to live my life. I'm going to go and seek out these pathways and what does that journey kind of look like that you've gone on and it seems pretty intentional that you've kind of structured this in a specific way. I absolutely feel very fortunate and very grateful for having to be able to work with these amazing teachers and I think it does feel a little bit of like callings and following callings and invitations but it also feels a little bit magical too. For example it was that second mindfulness retreat that I just signed up for not knowing who the teacher was and it just so happened it was Joanna Macy was the teacher. So what if I hadn't signed up for that course or what if it had been a different teacher right and so that then inspired this journey which then also led to Schumacher College that was another very fortunate moment where I was on a walk with a Buddhist nun at Naropa in Colorado which is a Buddhist university and we're on this actually a theory you dialogue walk where one person shares and the other person listens and I was sharing kind of about thinking about Buddhism and about the economic challenges of our time and I turned to the nun and I said hey you know what about Buddhist economics what if that was a thing thinking but you know not that I was the one to originate this idea but having never kind of put those ideas together in my mind and fortunately she turned to me and said have you heard of EF Schumacher and so it was then a search of who is this EF Schumacher that led me to Schumacher College right so it's it's really a path of being open to invitations and kind of callings and then being able to follow them to where they lead but you're right absolutely absolutely this desire to align work with values and also can have a life of service or contribution and that comes from many different people in my life but I would really say like primarily my mom who is just so much someone dedicated to being of service to people throughout her whole career in life so I think that that value was really developed in me as a child and I just had Daniel Christian Wall on the show and and he's had a similar thing he also got a degree at Schumacher College and has done many things with Gaia education you've worked with him before and different things it's also very similar so and you mentioned this before we started the podcast he says you know you're also connected to pretty pretty great things I think once you find this wire this purpose for life and you start to look in these areas of deeper knowledge it seems like the groups are people who are the thought leaders who are the ones that we get great wisdoms from that there are also ones that are really open and accepting and then it just kind of gravitates towards that do you have some kind of idea or thought process that you went into and say well there's kind of an underlying collectiveness or a consciousness that those people kind of gather and clump together and see each other or have you ever thought about how that occurs or why that occurs well I would say really this experience of this retreat with Joanna Macy was the first time I was introduced to spiritual ecology right this concept of the ecological self or just these alternative worldviews that one could absolutely find in wisdom traditions or in indigenous teachings but that was where I kind of experienced it I remember doing a practice with Joanna that she led called the mirror walk where you walk around guided by someone with your eyes closed really using all of your senses to experience where you're where you are and then every once in a while your partner says to you open your eyes and look in the mirror and it it evokes the sense of a ecological self you know this this guy in consciousness and so it were it was things like that moments like that that just evoke this other perception of paradigms or worldviews that are more helpful for the crisis that we're in the ecological crisis the spiritual crisis and then from that yeah there's such a whole world of teachers and spiritual leaders and writers and poets that are just in a line with this worldview that is more helpful for thriving people and planet Schumacher College I've got small as beautiful here as well speaking of Schumacher College that's one of your favorite books I think isn't it are you actually I've seen you promoted a couple times why is that why why do you talk about it well what's so important about Schumacher College small as beautiful in this different way of thinking of economics yeah well I think that that moment with the Buddhist nun where I said you know what about a Buddhist economics and she turned to me and said have you heard of EF Schumacher she was referring to EF Schumacher's experience of being trained as a mainstream economist a mainstream development economist and then having a paradigm shift of you know a crisis of of understanding in going to Burma right and seeing my understanding of it is he he he was centered to kind of help with development this very western mainstream view of development and progress and yet he had a spiritual awakening or a spiritual deepening where he said you know maybe our views of progress and development in the mainstream sense are not actually helpful and maybe there is a more holistic view and one of the things he noticed was that people were trying to be happy with less and less instead of more and more and so my understanding is that's kind of really what inspired smallest beautiful economics as if people mattered and in that book he has just so many delightful reframes like appropriate technology for example that are just really helpful for uh rethinking economics demystifying mainstream economics and offering alternative views and I think I resonate personally with that story as having been someone who studied mainstream economics in undergraduate and it was the it was one class in economic anthropology where I learned huh maybe the tragedy of the commons is actually an assumption underlying mainstream economic thinking and maybe it's not actually fact that we as humans cannot collectively manage a resource together and it was actually there that I first saw the film ancient futures by Helen and Norberg Hodge about Ladakh another powerful you know paradigm shifting experience again around development what what progress and development is um and then another person Manfred Max Nief the Chilean economist similar mainstream economics goes to a community and really finds that his tools that he's been taught are not actually helpful of human health and happiness and planetary health and happiness and kind of him and others create barefoot economics you know more humble and you know feed on the earth sense of economics so I think I'm uh inspired by EF Schumacher's kind of ability to kind of question everything and then unlearn you know it takes a lot of humility to unlearn what we thought we knew about economics and to rethink and to to criticize to challenge and then to seek out the alternative solutions and stories that will guide us towards more planetary and human flourishing it's so inspiring I mean I'm almost in in a trance just listening to you speak about economics and it's so exciting and I sense your your passion but but honestly Della when I ask people what economic models are living in their daily life one most people couldn't even tell me whether it's neoclassical and micro macro if it's capitalism if it's extractive economics they don't know what model that they're living in and it's okay I guess if they don't know what model they're living but what it means is that they're supporting by by not knowing does it mean that you're not supporting a bad model or a bad system by being in that more importantly is I like to talk about instead of complaining about those bad economic models that we see out there is let alone the the way economics is taught around the world is is not like what you're describing to me here at all it's very white older men wearing suit and ties and a different type of of economics that's taught around the world but there are so many alternatives just in what you've told and describing so far you Buddhist economics feminist economics and shared economics you know and on and on you've mentioned several fabulous ones already so my question is how do we kind of tell people that there's actually so many other alternatives local economics local futures you spoke about holding the Norbert cause can you kind of touch upon some of those things and where it's going and and why it's so exciting to have these in our world and what it means for us to kind of set a different different models for a better future yes so one of the ways that I like to think about economies comes from two feminist economists who wrote under the same pen name Gibson Graham they wrote under jk group they just wrote Gibson Graham as their pen name and what they did was they said actually we perform economies and we perform diverse economies and when we speak about capitalism as this all prevalent pervasive economy we actually give it more power than we need to and they invite us to see all the alternative economies that we also participate in and co-create every day so for those listening I want to invite you to think of your day and think of the ways that you do participate in neoliberal capitalism such as buying something on amazon for example or going into a corporate grocery store chain or you know getting into a vehicle that you bought in a corporate car place right that would all be participating in global corporate capitalism however if you offer eggs to your neighbor when they come over and knock on the door or you give a ride to a friend right that's the sharing economy or the gift economy right you go into your public library right that's the sharing economy as well a tool library in your neighborhood or a worker cooperative grocery store right that would be the solidarity economy or the new economy right if any of your energy comes from a renewable energy cooperative right so there's all these different economies that we participate in and co-create every day the caring economy if you care for an elder or a child in your life so that was helpful for me to notice there's actually many different economies and to see that when we speak about capitalism is all pervasive we give it more power than we need to and then the invitation is how do we uplift the view the understanding of these alternative economies and also make them more accessible for all of us to participate in them to rise them out of the global sea of capitalism and connect them and I think that one thing that's helpful in determining those is what is capitalism what are the operating principles and then what is not capitalism what are these alternative structures and to just make them more visible and to be aware of how we're participating in them so that the economy is not something abstract or outside of us but it's actually something that we participate in and co-create every day do you think it's important to understand that what no matter what economic model we're participating in to understand how that functions and what by supporting that by where we shop where we live by what we buy by how we live our lives that we're actually either supporting good economic models or keeping the old bad ones neoliberalism neocapitalism alive and what are your thoughts or practices there I know you have some uplifting messages you have some ways of practicing and using some other tips what would you suggest for us to kind of get into an awareness of what models we're living and maybe if you could tell us why that would be important what what shifts or changes do we see when we have more participatory knowledge of how we live and what we do in our world yeah yeah I think of it on twofold I think there is the the personal behavioral right the ways that I can personally participate in feminist economics buddhist economic solidarity economy new economy etc and those are really important and that's everything from moving your money to you know like we have a regenerative social finance investment organization here in San Francisco so moving one's money where you shop you're right like a worker cooperative for example how you move around like all of it right could be your personal behavioral changes to participate in alternative economies and they are important and then also on that other level is the systemic how do we shift the systems again to make them more accessible but also to make more more of the economy these alternative diverse economies so that would be like you know the public banking movement and really supporting worker cooperatives or the not-for-profit business model uplifting that supporting you know public healthcare and public education and you know our social safety nets things like that so I think it's it is twofold but I do love your question it's like how do we how do we participate in them and one thing that's helpful is systems thinking right if we don't think systemically and we don't sense into the systems then we're unaware of the potential harm that is being caused so one example of systemic thinking that I love there's a woman named Sarah Corbett she's in the UK and she calls herself a craftivist she says if we want our activism no she says if we want our world to be beautiful just and kind we need our activism to be beautiful just and kind and she offers this practice of shop dropping so she has these little scrolls of paper with a ribbon on them and she goes to stores that have you know either materials that are harmful to the planet or sweatshop labor and she drops the scrolls into the pockets of that clothing that's why it's called shop dropping and then what happens is somebody goes into the dressing room tries on the jacket sees the scroll unravels it and it says something like if your if your clothes could talk what tales might they tell would they tell tales of love and care or of harm and exploitation right and then a little bit of where to learn more but the point is she's inviting systemic thinking into that moment you know how often do we think about the supply chains and the qualities of care either for the planet or for people and so to just think more systemically it can be very difficult because it's not always very clear or transparent you know what what the consequences of our actions are it could also be very cost prohibitive right to make only ethical sustainable choices but at least that inviting systemic thinking can help us be more aware of the implications of our economic choices and actions absolutely love that there you know that I'm a sustainable development goal advocate and I've said many times that the sustainable development goals are a new economic model they're an ecological economic model most people are like what that's and that's weird that's a claus Schwab conspiracy theory or or you know woke sdgs or whatever they say they're kind of just like no that doesn't make sense but what is regular development development of cities of countries of communities of businesses residential commercial development that's an economic model of an itself it's a the built environment it's just regular business as usual development and the high carbon scenario how we've always built up industry and businesses and cities and countries which is taking a toll on our finite resources on on heat pockets in different areas and that's its own economic model so what I'm getting to is um by December 2030 that regular business as usual development economy will spend 89 trillion us dollars and this was before the pandemic and the brexit and the supply chain issues and all the other craziness we've seen go on around the world we knew for a fact that by December 2030 they would spend about 89 trillion us dollars now that's gone up because of all these things whereas we also know that sustainable development doing it in a low carbon scenario in a much different way with better materials better sustainable practices it's not perfect but but in a different way that that would be about today's number is about 96 trillion us dollars and anything you know more about economics than than I do I hope but anything over about 1.5 trillion dollars is its own economic model and especially you know in in the Netherlands they have the tulip economy so it's all based on tulip and growth and so to just give that understanding around economics that there's many different types of economic systems in industries and sectors that that's interesting but it leads right into what you were saying and that's why I bring it up the SDGs and the SDG economic model has basically paved the way for the ESG environmental social governance and it is a beautiful way that now through CSRD human rights due diligence directive the digital product passport and these things that are coming out through the European Union we're taking into account human rights violations scope one two and three emissions now with a digital product passport of all products being sold in the in the European Union all products going out of the European Union they all have that traceability what's the upstream the downstream where they made are they made with a fair wage are there human rights violations and when you you talk about her dropping this little note into the pockets that's fabulous and it's a local way of kind of having this activism and doing that but now we see one of the the the biggest organizations the European Union the Commission the parliamentary process in the European Union is actually one of the biggest organizations kind of moving us forward on the on the on the right side of how do we get into a new economic models and processes and I kind of wanted to you know say we saw the beyond growth conference that happened in the EU a matter of fact you were here teaching a course in the European Union that you can tell about but what do you see with that kind of leading up and where we're going in the future for better traceability fairer wages better economic models and kind of some of these things that are really holding us accountable and moving us forward in the right direction can you tell us a little bit more what you see and what your thought processes are there yeah I mean I'm really tracing what you're saying through the lens of Dinella Meadows right systems theorist and her fabulous essay leverage points places to intervene in a system which she calls like acupuncture points to change a system and very she has 12 of them but very high at the top is changing the goal of the system and the sustainable development goals and doughnut economics gross national happiness beyond growth all of these are ways to change the goal the goal of development or progress to something more holistic more like thriving people on the planet or the well-being or happiness or the economy for the common good movement right and so from that new goal we have to say what do we measure right as my mentor dr. havin tow from gross national happiness center butan would tell me he said we are attentive to what we measure we're attentive to what we measure so by having these more holistic measurement tools we are guiding our attention and our efforts towards something different so that's really how i'm hearing the what the benefits and the things that you're talking about and I would say the beyond growth conference and also what I was doing during that time I was working with dr. jennifer hinton who worked for the post-growth institute and now is completing a book on the not-for-profit economy and she really says hey part of the challenge of growth and part of going beyond growth is addressing the profit motive and the profit mechanism and she has these beautiful systems diagrams that show that is the profit mechanism in our economy that is leading to rising inequality corporate consolidation and political capture and ecological devastation right through the profit mechanism it's like it's like there's wealth that's leaving the economy and being kind of siphoned to ever grading ever greater inequality for the one percent and then she shows an entire not-for-profit economy where all profit is redirected to social and environmental good is like a true circular economy right where the wealth is redirected and and recirculated and goes to addressing the challenges of our time and she shows in that model that there is no corporate consolidation there's not the same mechanism for rising inequality ecological devastation or political capture so I was working with her at that time so we were so happy to see and hear that the Beyond Growth conference was happening and watch it from afar but just be in kind of solidarity and in in the same movement as folks who are challenging the growth imperative and the idea of growth as an end goal instead of a means to an end and people who are really offering alternative goals of the economy and measurement tools that are more holistic and regenerative I want to dive a little bit deeper because not only have you mentioned tons of different economic models and how they're kind of eye lens and they're collaborating they're all going in the same direction they're all kind of supporting and helping each other there's one that was released also at this Beyond Growth and I don't know if you've heard about it it's the earth for all it's really interesting they're taking five different basically economic models and putting them together they're taking the the limits to growth world model three original systems dynamic modeling upgrading that your granders is kind of updating the MIT computer model the world three model to give us more systems dynamic thinking and process to run out scenarios then we've got Kate Rowers a donut economics we've got dark professor Dr. Johan Rockstrom's planetary boundaries well-being economy and post-growth or degrowth Tim Jackson or I don't know if there's someone else maybe Jason Hicklow as in that as well and they're putting all together in one model and so if you were to ask somebody to say how many ecological economic models are there alternative economic models they're like what are you talking about you know they wouldn't even know but you've just mentioned a dozen or more and there's really probably over 40 50 different models emerging how do we look at that how do we understand that do we is it is it kind of a battle between the best you know is it circular economy donut economics is it shared economy or can we use them all how do we view that and how can you help us make sense of that now do we have another smorgasbord of options that's confusing us or or is there a way that we kind of break it down and understand it and put it into practice and make it work for us yes I think we can synthesize these models and here's how I might do that one way to do that the first is accepting the premise that the idea that was first written about or not first written about but was really written about about 50 years ago in the Limits to Growth paper co-authored by many folks including Danela Meadows but just this idea that our economy cannot grow forever our planet is already showing the breaking points the tipping points as Johan Rakstrom and the Stockholm resilience center would say right the planetary boundaries are already being breached so we have already like recognized the limits to growth and we are suffering the consequences and we will be for for many years so first accepting that and also recognizing that it is a operating principle of our current dominant economic system that growth is good growth is seen as the progress or the the metric of success right growth of GDP growth of the business right and as Jason Hickl says it's not just that a business is profitable it's the there's an exponential rate of return of profit so growth baked into a business success as well so all of that so recognizing that is step one and all of these models would really have us be aware of the limits to growth and then after that I think is changing the goal so saying let us not have growth be the goal of our economic systems let us have it be something more holistic so donut economics says let us have the goal be the meeting of human needs while staying within the planetary boundaries is let's say the goal is well-being for people in the planet economy for the common good says let it be the common good is the goal of the economy gross national happiness says let it be a holistic sense of happiness measured by these nine domains that include the ecological the social the psychological the time use the cultural etc right and and there's many others too when the veer in latin and south america for example the wales well-being act there's one in new zealand right so there's so many so that would be changing the goal okay so we've changed the goal we have new metrics we have new indicators we have a new goal of the economy how do we then get to those goals now this is where some of the other policies and ideas that you discussed come in so circular economy so having you know there not be any waste waste being redirected and utilized in the production process i think about ikea what if ikea this is something they're actually working on but what if ikea everything that was sold at ikea was returned to ikea to be repurposed for example right so that's circular economy it's it's a little bit more complex than that but that's one element of it this not-for-profit business model where you have no for-profit businesses where all profit is redirected either to the business or directed to mission-driven work social or ecological benefit work right so there's that element there's how money is created degrowth degrowth would absolutely be one way to get us within the doughnut so to speak or get us to this new goal of well-being economy because it's recognizing that in some places we are way beyond our ecological systems our planetary boundaries and so degrowth would be necessary and if we think about it consciously and we do it collectively it doesn't actually have to cause harm as a depression or a recession would right and so degrowth talks about things like the four-day work week right talk about a win and a steep growing the economy for example but also degrowth includes things like the right to repair right so that if i had a refrigerator instead of throwing it away that it could be repaired more easily or an iphone being able to be repaired more easily that's why we have the fare phone right that's modular that can be repaired more easily so right to repair abolishing planned obsolescence you know addressing food waste or other types of waste so all of these things degrowth could be part of how do we get within the doughnut right how do we have that regenerative and distributive economy or how do we get to a more well-being economy for the for all so i would say absolutely all of these ecological economics post post growth economics principles and ideas can work together in a whole holistic movement to transition us to a more sustainable and regenerative economy out of all all these models that we've discussed or ones that you know about are there any where you say boy it's doughnut economics it's really going well in Amsterdam it's really going well here is there one where you'd say it's really fabulous or is it and this is kind of where we're going to go in a minute when we speak about regeneration but is there one that you're really saying boy this is just working very well or are they all place people culture specific what works best city specific on on how they work and how do you see those really playing out in the future you mentioned Helena norberg hodge and it's local futures local economies it's really place-based very local very cultural and and bringing that in so i wanted to ask you that as well yeah um you know i personally see myself as a deep generalist a deep generalist and that that frame is from Miriam McGillis she once told me that she said the world doesn't need more specialists it needs more deep generalists and i think you are one too mark i can imagine we know we know a little bit about a lot of different things and we're able to connect them right but we may not be a specialist in one so i would say that you know due to having a podcast like you and being able to be a teacher and someone who is also a researcher i i enjoy getting to know about a lot of them so i wouldn't say one is the answer and i and i don't think that's how systems change happen either there's so many operating principles of our current dominant economic system that need to be shifted that i appreciate the plethora of ideas and tools and strategies to address all those different things so i would say it's very pluralistic movement um however in the realm of the changing the goal i would say that i have seen a little bit of the place-based uh thing happening where gross national happiness is so of the place of buton right it really has a cultural element to it and also the buddhist philosophy and practice of it and then you have like the bristol happiness project and again buen vivier the economy for the common good with christian felber and austria you know like so i i do feel the place-based and the cultural specific elements of these movements and i can appreciate the diversity and the unity of them at the same time i would say that i personally have gotten pretty involved with uh donut economics because donut economics seems to be something that a lot of folks can resonate with so kate rayworth and her team have both utilized the sustainable development goals for the inner circle of the donut but also as you mentioned um yohan roxtrum and the stock arm resilient center the planetary boundaries so utilizing those pretty global standards or global like appreciated in a global sense ways of measuring i think that's been really helpful for the movement um and also that it doesn't have the kind of spiritual aspect of let's say gross national happiness right part of gross national happiness one of the questions on the survey is do you believe that trees are the home of spirits and deities right i don't think you could ask that everywhere right it would have a different different understanding so i think that donut economics is is really well positioned to be something it's also visual right kate speaks to the visual nature of the donut being one of its benefits like that you can see the donut in your mind or on a piece of paper and kind of get uh the goal is to get within the donut the safe and just space for humanity right so i have found that that feels like a very helpful model to get on board with globally and also that it connects really well with things like the well-being economy circular economy post growth like that it really is a natural ally and advocate for those models local futures helen and erberg hodge again that film ancient futures phenomenal economics of happiness phenomenal and i've gotten to uh teach alongside and work with helen over the years and just really appreciate what she does is really for me she really um demystifies the global part of it right the the interconnected globally and the impact of development and capitalism on the global south and so localizing our economies to me is about bioregionalism and becoming people of place you know place making so it's like it is one of the answers but it's like a different part of the answer in a way i think also local economies ought to be more local and independent businesses that are perhaps worker cooperative or not-for-profit businesses right um but also in more reciprocity and connection with place so how are we going to measure the doughnut how are we going to know about the flourishing of the planet in our place-based places if we're not in deep relationship with it so i do think local futures and localizing our economies is another addition to this beautiful movement how does regenerative or regeneration um economics fit into this whole scheme of where we're going and just in general we talk a lot about regenerative or regeneration as kind of a new and trendy thing and you've probably heard me on other other podcasts or other circles you know it's really not you've heard it from for itself capra as well that it's actually very old it's the way the world's worked it's always been that way it's our regenerative ancestry really um and those type of things but now we're hearing you know regenerative economics regenerative agriculture regenerative well-being um all all sorts of things around that um how do you look at that and what would you say going forward on on what we see there and how we can create those conditions conducive to life regenerating itself to flourish and to do those things that you're talking about what what are your thoughts or ideas on regeneration yeah so i think to speak about regeneration we also need to think about sustainable right and sustainability and i know that some folks and i i too in the past have thought oh sustainable we don't want that because what are we sustaining right and it almost feels like it's sustaining of our current dominant system however fritchoff capra the other day he said in a group that i was in he said you know when we talk about sustainability it's not about sustaining the current system it's about sustaining life and i was like oh it makes total sense so maybe we don't need to throw away sustaining or sustainability out completely but what i do appreciate about regenerative is that it is like life affirming life giving right and helping like i think about helping nature thrive and flourish and continue to be a part of nature right humans as a part of nature and i think about this idea of our ecological footprint right and that idea of our how much impact we as humans have on the planet regenerative to me is thinking about our ecological handprint like how are we also you know supporting ecosystems like helping ecosystems heal and be repaired how are we planting new things you know helping the coral helping forests right also forest manage manager like i'm thinking about the indigenous peoples who have helped with controlled burns and forest manager to help you know ecosystems really flourish and thrive so i think of regeneration on the ecological scale to be something that is life affirming life supportive but also it's on the human like i think about a lot of people are concerned with burnout have experienced burnout or worried about it especially in activism especially in the face of the ecological and social challenges of our time so what does it mean to be regenerative personally means to really care for the soil of our own livelihood gardens to do self care in a way that feels restorative and literally regenerative so that we can continue to serve life and be a part of life so and then also regenerative livelihoods that's a frame that that i use a lot but i i love this idea of like livelihood being regenerative in the way that it is supportive of regenerative economics and our own regeneration as as individuals so yeah i think i resonate with the term but i do see you're right that it is used often and i think this other question is like yeah what is the overall umbrella or frame is everything that we're talking about post growth economics is it regenerative economics is it eco socialism that's another another frame the new economy the next system and again personally as a deep generalist i think i i code switch depending on who an audience is if somebody could really hear ecological economics like they appreciate that lineage that i might use that somebody is more like buddhist economics frame i might use that new economy solidarity economy or regenerative economics so i think there's also a usefulness in the language depending on the audience by way of getting us to connect and be able to really listen to one another so that we can actually be here together and work together instead of feeling triggered by certain words that automatically make us defensive or not want to collaborate i love that and i'm i'm right in alignment with you and and that really before i get to the the hardest question i want to kind of tie it into the core fundamentals of the meaning of economics and and kind of you've said this before and i kind of want you to use your words and where you got it from and kind of learned it's really about how do we get to know our home and how that ties back to economics yeah so if we go to the etymology economics eikos nomos from greek management of the home and at first it was management of a domestic home a familial home right the the finances of a home and then it was brought in to think about the nation state home the country home and folks like kate rayworth say due to the nature of the interconnectedness of our global system and us you know pushing over the our planetary boundaries 21st century economics must be management of our planetary home right so one question is who is responsible for planetary home managing right and it is certainly not a group of older white men right and just them and everyone else just waits for their instructions or follows orders right we are all collectively a part of managing our home including the biotic community or the more than human world right gaya or our planetary systems our ecosystems keystone species for example the bees the the fish the starfish the corals like they're all a part of collectively managing our home so we all are so you know it's like that thomas berry quote the universe is a communion of subjects not a collection of objects that we are co-participating in the unfolding of our planet and the caretaking of our planet in addition to managing our home we also have to think about well how do we manage our home if we do not deeply know our home and so that connects us with the word ecology right or it goes logos knowledge of our home knowledge of our home so satish kumar founder of schumacher college who you mentioned earlier he once walked into the london school of economics and he said how can you call yourself a school of economics without a department of ecology how can you seek to manage our home when you do not deeply know our home so that's why this connection with our bio regions are watersheds this is why you know permaculture or other practices of deep listening of being in relation with land of noticing changes of migratory patterns or of populations of bees or of seasons right that's why that's so important because when we deeply know our home and we can send in into the condition and the health of our home then we can participate more healthfully and healthily in our collective co-managing that is so beautifully framed there is something interesting because there's also the micro riso economy the wood wide web economy the economy of not only fungal economy there are so many different things that tie to the natural world that create economies in and of itself a agrarian society as an economy all based around farming and agriculture and the basic resources of us that kind of ties to a much deeper thing and another person that I'm sure you've dealt with and heard about over the years not only through Fritz Hof but others is Lynn Margolis turned the scientific community on its head through symbiogenesis symbiosis a symbiotic earth and basically going against what we've been talking about a lot here that there is really no such thing as neoliberalism or neo-darwinism and survival of the fittest natural selection only the strong survive severe competition that actually the way that the world works in this overarching model is in collaboration in cooperation in symbiosis is how the world works not in this misunderstanding of natural selection and that that is actually an ecological phenomenon symbiosis as one of the the the biggest sources of evolutionary human innovation that we've ever seen it's actually beyond an exponential it's a super exponential and goes in what they call you know quantum tunneling or super abundance if we live in symbiosis if we understand and apply that in our organizations in our lives and our economic models the way we interact with the natural world our planet our earth the guidance systems that we actually have abundant life we have the that we stay within the planetary boundaries we operate in those things and so I really wanted to see how often do you deal with with Lynn Margolis's work with symbiosis this terminology from Glenn Albrecht that we need new words for a new world and we need to get out of the Anthropocene to go to the symbiocene what what are your interactions in your daily life and your work that you do and teach with Lynn and symbiosis yeah my main connection with Lynn's work has come from Dr. Stefan Harding so the Deepa Collegeist at Schumacher College and learning about yeah Gaia Theory and and the symbiosis of our earth that way and it is that those insights have really been a part of what I call this upstream journey that I've been in and this it's this metaphor from public health where you see people who are floating down the river drowning you jump in to save them pull them to shore you look up there's more people floating down the river you call for help and eventually some people have to go upstream to figure out why are why is everyone falling in in the first place so I heard this metaphor and embarked on a journey upstream with my co-producer the podcast but just in general all of this economic stuff has been looking at this journey upstream to what are the root causes and as I've gone upstream from the challenges of our time the first step that I've found is supremacy so power over dynamics right patriarchal supremacy capitalist supremacy human supremacy over nature Christian supremacy can also be there white supremacy and then going upstream from supremacy or power over dynamics we find separation right separation of ourselves because to have power over something you first need to be separate from you need to other it and then going upstream from that we find the small sense of self that the small self so to speak and so from there at that like root cause of our perception of who we are as humans and our perception of self as rugged isolated individuals homo economicus right from there we can remember that we are something different or that we have the capacity to be something different the symbiosis or symbiosis or that we are part of Gaia the ecological self that is the remembering remembering ourselves to the web of life from that remembering that ecological self going back downstream on the other side we come into a reconnection with one another and more the more than human world a symbiosis of working together a collaboration and then from there we come into an economics of solidarity of mutual aid of connectedness right and we find that tragedy the commons is a myth and actually we can manage comments together we find that we are not homo economicus we actually are you know connected beings like umbuntu right kind of view of of humanity so i would say that that linds work and and all of the kind of deep ecology work has been really helpful on this journey upstream upstream to find these insights to then be able to come back down to an economies of interconnectedness and symbiosis i was um in songdo korea doing the next iteration of goals after the sustainable development goals which we wanted to do the regenerative development goals from december 2030 to december 2050 but the craziness of the united nations just couldn't let it happen they couldn't think that far into the future and uh we ended up turning over what we what we call the resilience frontiers of the resilience development goals but when i was at this national adaptation program expo of the united nations for adaptation and mitigation doing these five-day workshops on uh the next goals coming after the sustainable development goals there was a uh at the expo there was a professor choy who spoke and i don't know if you've ever heard of him out out of japan or heard of his work um and i'm probably i need to put on my glasses because i think i'm uh professor choy j j tun if and sorry if i uh but he said actually coined this term and said we need to become homo symbiosis and so as you said homo economicus uh i i would i would love to see us kind of make that evolutionary that symbiotic evolutionary that the ecological phenomenon that we have to actually get to that homo symbiosis that we we have this this interplay and interaction with with this gaya uh and get to get to that so i when you mentioned homo economicus i this kind of what came to my mind uh of that point in time um all of this that we've discussed has been absolutely fabulous but i want to ask you the hardest question now uh of the podcast and it's one that i have asked um quite a few people and also always on video it's uh what does a world that works for everyone look like for you not for anybody else just for you what does a world that works for everyone look like for you and you you know where this comes from comes from our buck minister fuller it's over 70 years old it comes from his new world game or the world game peace game that he used to play also owned by the schumacher colleges as actually owns the the trust of of the buck minister fuller institute and the riots and i would love to know what your thoughts your ideas on this how if you've contemplated that question before yeah world that works for everyone i mean first i'm assuming that the everyone is not just the human world right it's all beings so i'm just making that clear and then works for everyone that really just to draw that out a little bit reminds me again of like well what does it mean to work for like what are the metrics of success so i'm going to assume a sense of thriving a sense of flourishing so i think of the great turning which is a frame i learned from joanna macy a way that we can describe this time the turning towards life so it's it's you know turning towards love towards life towards flourishing towards thriving so that's what i'm assuming by a world that works for everyone and then i would really lean on buddhist philosophy and practice for this answer just that that beautiful understanding that physical pain change and death are inevitable there are all parts of life for human and more than humans they're going to happen to all of us and the more that we can you know accept that old age sickness and death and change are an inevitable part of life um the the the easier it'll be for us when we do experience that for ourselves or for others and yet what is changeable or what is not necessarily inevitable is suffering so that first part is pain old age sickness death change that's painful but suffering comes from that second arrow as buddhism would say that way that we either think about the the pain or the suffering or that we exacerbate the suffering on top of the inevitable and so a world that works for everyone is where there isn't that suffering there isn't that additional you know the the points of structures that are exclusionary right or structures that create harm or pressure right structures or systems that are more kind or compassionate that are regenerative right that are not extractive or exploitative right so i think about it on a world that works for everyone on all levels it's interpersonal it's the ways that we call each other in that we listen that we're kind that we're nonviolent in our communication that we're compassionate right but it's also unwidening circles of reciprocity so it's also in our neighborhoods it's in our you know political systems economic systems all the way to our planetary system so that on all levels we're turning towards life and towards what is regenerative and just and equitable and good and loving and kind and compassionate and we're turning away from unnecessary suffering coming from exploitation and harm such a beautiful world that works for everyone thank you for sharing that this is no secret we we were working together on a world that works fellowship gathering in butan and and because not only your facilitation coaching your your your knowledge and wisdom around gross national happiness compassion buddhism and at this as well to bring the world's thought leaders experts authors spiritual leaders together in one place and use some of the things we've talked about on this podcast you know Otto Sharma's theory you process using things from the growth center for gross national happiness from all the things that we've discussed here and many more into one kind of longer gathering experience workshop with the reverse classroom model that that you so greatly understand well and kind of support do you see any models or any groups or organizations coming together in a world today operating system model or way to bring humanity together to solve or answer that question that you just answered and find the tools to get us on the right side of history to get us into the future that's out of capitalism out of some of the destruction human suffering global grand challenges that we see that separation that all the things that we really don't want to address or even address kind of talk about what are the new systems that make those obsolete and if if not what what do you feel or what do you think about how we can make something like that happen is that possible in our world is it realistic to even ask this question in the world that we live in well I absolutely think that these gatherings and communities do exist and are happening and I know that if I said mark tell us your last six months where you've been who you've been with what conferences you've been to what gatherings you would tell us so many inspiring people and places and communities who are doing this work so I absolutely believe they are happening again some that I really appreciate you know the the donut economics movement around the world which does sometimes take physical form in place but it's also a global virtual movement the donut economics action lab is a great place for us to gather around the donut and also to make it play space from those interactions and those connections the beyond growth post growth movement is also really inspiring around the world the iterations on a global green new deal I've found really interesting as well so really saying let us not have the green transition be capitalist or growth oriented right just changing our one type of energy oil based energy to mineral based energy right but actually addressing growth in also decolonization and even reparations in the process so that that's a movement that I feel inspired by as well as many spiritual communities around the world who are doing this great work so I would say there's so many in the United States we have the new economy coalition which is a whole group of folks in that space the new economy organizers network in the UK is another one you know the via Camposina movement I would also say is is really inspiring so there's so many around the world that I'm inspired by and I do see the connections and you know what would be needed to uplift or shift this again it's there's this interesting magic to what touches each of us what we could say what radicalizes each of us or what inspires each of us but like what really creates that that shift where we're like hey maybe making more and more money and materialism and consumption isn't actually what's bringing me health and happiness or hey maybe our economy being only based on growth of GDP is not actually helpful for human health on the planet whatever that is that moment that sparks that interest or that curiosity or that break in reality to cause us to do some research which you know light research would get us to all the things that we've mentioned these books these these ideas so I think that break is already happening and and those moments are very unique for each of us right different things like different movies or books or conversations touch us differently but the most helpful thing I've heard in this frame again Dr Jennifer Hinton she showed this graph of change happening in different areas where she showed that there was like going along going along and then all of a sudden like an exponential change in behavior or action or adoption right like think about you know compost right like not places not really having composting to all of a sudden San Francisco we have to compost or we get fined right or gay marriage for example abolishing slavery in the United States fair trade right even the world of land acknowledgments and people introducing themselves with their pronouns like these things are like so what that tells me is that time and this also comes from Jenny O'Dell her book saving time she says when we think about decline ism or determinism this kind of march forward of time is like you know global temperatures rising or parts per million of carbon rising that it's like inevitable it's like just it's going to happen but actually we don't know what's going to happen and there's these these tipping points in these moments that happen that really shift things dramatically right the day before slavery ended in the day after is like a different world so that was really heartening to me and as well this idea from Joanna Macy of any act with good intention sends out ripple effects into the web of life in ways we cannot measure or even see you know this is not linear work this is systemic thinking right emergence right this magic quality so mark we have no idea what the results of this conversation between you and I will be you know maybe there'll be one person who never heard of done economics and looks it up or gross natural happiness and then says I want to go to Bhutan we have no idea the ripple effects right but let's keep doing the work that we're doing right keep participating in the great turning in our individual lives in our neighborhoods our communities and systemically so at all scales of our life let's keep trying to align our values and our our ethics with our actions in the world right through our personal behaviors but also through our work through all the ways that we can let's open to the very real harm and suffering happening in the web of life not turn away from it but turn towards it let it ripen us let it let us feel it and then let us empower Lee act on it on behalf of the living earth and then as we do that we have no idea what the outcome will be so to hold that that desire for control or for change lightly and be open to what's possible so I think I think that's how I might answer that question around like how do we create the change that we want to see I think it's already happening and we're doing it in the question world that works for everyone the kind of a key takeaways works for everyone is it utopian is it the pie in the sky is it too too crazy to to to think or to say that there is one model that would work for everyone on on the planet and not creating the ecological offense or disadvantage to anyone to have one unified model that that that kind of does it for all of us you think that's a little too out there or do you think that would even be possible you know I again think of like the our global ecological footprint is thinking about us as humans having a negative and then I think about our handprint is us in symbiosis and collaboration and cooperation and so I do believe there can be moments of collaboration coordination where there is thriving and things do work for everyone so to speak and I'm also thinking about like when wins like when have you in your life been a part of a like a dinner party or a gathering or an activity where it just felt like it was a win for everyone like there was flow there was cohesion there was goodness right so I think that there can be and I think it really is about a broadening of the movement like I said maybe it's regenerative economics maybe that frame is broad enough maybe it's post-growth economics maybe that's broad enough I mean to me these are very similar they're just kind of emphasizing different aspects of it but I think they're all in the right direction in the direction of the great turning so to speak so I think we we do have holistically the movement and it's just about uplifting them broadening them and also getting into the corridors of power where decisions are made some of these things are best at a certain scale and so I think I think that's another element of it too but wherever you are in the system there's probably there is absolutely a way that you can contribute to this movement of regenerative ecological new economy post-growth economics well we've thrown around a lot of terminology and discussions I really want you to tell us about a couple more things as we wrap up but you're teaching this course or your offer a course through Gaia education I'd like you to tell us a little bit more about that what it looks like and and I mean you teach a lot of different courses plus your podcast upstream but can you tell us a little bit about that yeah of course so I in learning all of what I learned through Schumacher and through the podcast really wanted a way to help make sense of it in people's lives so that's why I became a right livelihood coach and that's like by donation one-on-one work and I've worked with about over 200 different clients now at this point and I don't know the exact number was definitely over 200 and so as I've been doing that I've noticed what the similar challenges are to cultivating right livelihood and also what the helpful like reframes or tools are for cultivating right livelihood so Gaia education said would you develop a course for us on cultivating a regenerative livelihood that's the title of it and so I work with Sylvia de Blasio on that and we just lead a course once a year it's in January of each year for about eight weeks and it's a guided journey of helping each of us cultivate regenerative livelihood wherever you are some people are unemployed some people are hoping to transition some people are creating something new so there's so many different entry points to cultivating regenerative livelihood wherever you are is is where you are on the path right it's a process not a destination so I get to do that work and that's been really joyful and then the other thing for Gaia education is co-teaching the economic dimension and I'm actually going to be rewriting the economic dimension Daniel Christian Wall has been one of the people who's who's done that before Jonathan Dawson of Schumacher College so I'm excited to do that also Nuresh another founder of Co transition town so I'm looking forward to that but that's going to be a huge endeavor but grateful for that opportunity of trying to tell the ecological economics you know landscape of our time we you also have a lot of ties to permaculture and how and and probably even regenerative ag and natural farming biodynamic or organic sold Rudolph Steiner kind of things as well what what can you tell us about that and how how have you noticed over the years that that really ties into economics or some as a great example and things and how there's actually permaculture economics as well absolutely so I have to share some gratitude for David Shaw who's been my mentor and comrade on this he was in a work that reconnects retreat with me with Joanna Macy several years ago and he was creating a permaculture institute and he had been to Schumacher College studying with Banda Neshiva and so then I went to Schumacher College came back and reconnected with him and he asked if I could teach a day long on all of his pdcs his permaculture design certificates of financial permaculture and so there is some material out there on financial permaculture either social permaculture financial permaculture is pretty much a part of every permaculture design certificate but it's not usually given a full day so it was really a beautiful invitation to be able to think how might I teach all of this alternative economics ecological regenerative economics in one day and part of it is connected with the permaculture ethics of earth care people care fair share right earth care is very much front and center in a permaculture course typically but what about that people care in the fair share where does that come in as well as when you think about a permaculture site you think about zones right like the house and the area around it and the the larger plot of land and they're they're called different zones but what about zone 0.0 which is the zone in our head right our paradigms or worldviews and also what about the zones beyond the plot of land that our permaculture site is on right it doesn't exist in isolation we're in widening systems right supply chains and impacts right climate change social systems etc so I love financial permaculture getting to work with students of permaculture to both think about the paradigm shift that is necessary for really creating a culture of earth care people care and fair share but also to think like how does their site or their land or their project how does that interact with the other systems and how can we support the health of that system but the health of the other systems so that we have like widening benefits of this permaculture work that we're doing beautiful I absolutely love it I tie not only agriculture organics regenerative ag permaculture all back into economics into one of our oldest economic systems our world's ever seen the longest running the most successful also the most damaging on our planet agrarian society is probably one of the most damaging economic systems for our planet and human health but I love the way you you tie that in you bring it in into perspective I also say you know we need some good bullshit to make great con post some good stinky poop to make a compost and when you have good topsoil good compost and a pile and you grab a handful of that it actually doesn't stink anymore it actually smells pretty good and there's a lot of things in that whole process of of good gardening a good permaculture of good regenerative ag where we see the things that we've touched on this podcast throughout the discussion we've mentioned exponential super exponential abundance and many other things is that what why do compost piles heat up why do they get so hot a lot of people say oh it's the off-gassing it's it's this it's that well it's it's actually the cells dividing those cells dividing and dividing the microorganisms feeding that raise that temperature and there are as organic and natural materials in there but there's also waste there's also that and I tease we need a little bit of the bullshit of the bad systems the bad players in our world to feed that natural healthy compost and that balance of life to to bring about good things and so I love how you tie that into the real world living systems and into our daily lives because we deal with food and growing food is the the best way to it's like printing your own money so what a better economic system than kind of getting into that as we close up I just want to see if you can maybe tickle and help us with a couple more understandings can you tell us a little bit about a possible book collaboration work that you're kind of working on or is that still top secret I had the real joy of getting to work with the London School of Economics as a senior fellow at the the Atlantic Fellowship for Economic Inequality and there they really helped us understand the root causes of inequality and encouraged us to do a place-based project so the book that I'm finishing right now is all about what are the root causes of economic inequality in the San Francisco Bay Area which is where I'm from where I'm currently living but also the heart of Silicon Valley so there's a lot can come from understanding what's happening here for the rest of the world and then the other side of the book is around the systemic alternatives the solutions a lot of what we talked about today but really framing them as like invitations and so I'm just trying to work on different scales or levels so trying to do work in San Francisco then trying to do work in California California Donut Economics Coalition the the United States and then globally and so I really try to find how can I contribute at each scale of the system to shift the system to being something more regenerative and just well I know for a fact that we're gonna our paths across we'll speak often when that book's done I'd love to be one of the first to to read it and interview you having having on the podcast and do a deep dive discussion as we've had now and and I really would love to collaborate with you on on anything in the future so that we can bring more of these raising up the messages and kind of bringing the message out there because that's it's economics is not boring like most of us thought it's actually pretty exciting and it's something that can can make a good life a well-being or the a wonderful beautiful abundant life if we do it in the right way and so I would love to to collaborate with you on that that's really all I have for you but I want to ask you just at the end is there anything that we didn't get to talk about that you wanted to kind of bring out and a message that you would like to leave the listeners as we close up well something you just said reminded me of a quote so I'd love to close with a quote this is Yanis Vodafakis who folks likely know former finance minister of Greece currently working on your green new deal but he said we must all understand that empowering citizens to speak authoritatively about the economy is a prerequisite for democracy and a precondition for the good society there are no economic experts there are experts when it comes to things like building a bridge if you want to build a bridge you can't do it democratically because the bridge could collapse and it would be a major crime but the economy is the way in which we organize social power who has power over their lives and who doesn't that is a question of democracy so if we are to accept that there's a group of experts and we have to defer to them when it comes to economic matters then effectively we accept oligarchy so to close I would say my closing invitation is just for folks to start to feel in and notice the economic system that they're a part of notice how it is delivering ill health and harm and exploitation to themselves our bodies our perception of purpose our confidence right our resilience but also our communities as well as the planet and then to search into what might have and have piqued your interest here what might have inspired you there are groups on the hyper local level on the city level the bioregional level the state level the country level and the global level so wherever you are how might you contribute to this the systems change this changing of our economic system to be more regenerative and equitable and just and and really be a part of this great turning Della Duncan thank you so much for letting us all inside of your ideas it's been a sheer pleasure get to know our home where it's our job as understanding ecology and economics it's to get to know our home and when we understand it boy the the beauty and wonderful things we can do look forward to seeing you again thank you so much thank you so much