Good afternoon and welcome to Vermont House Judiciary Committee. It is Wednesday, May 5th, and we are going to be looking at H428, which is a bill regarding hate-motivated crimes that we passed, and the Senate passed and did make some changes. So we do have attorney Bryn here to help us understand the other body's changes. Thank you, Bryn. Sure. Good afternoon, committee. For the record, Bryn here from Legislative Council. I think that you all have dropped 3.1 of the Senate's Judiciary Committee amendment to H428. And so I'm going to be reviewing that. They did do a strike all amendment. This is a pretty short and straightforward bill. So I think that it's not going to be too difficult to point out where the two differ. But if the committee remembers the way you passed the bill was to make some pretty limited amendments to the hate crime statute, specifically you removed the word maliciously so that in order to seek this enhanced penalty a prosecutor wouldn't have to prove that the conduct was maliciously motivated by the victims protected status, but just that the conduct was motivated by the victims protected status. And you also added the words or the National Guard to the list of protected categories. And the third thing that you did and you did, you made that change. The removal of the word maliciously you did that both in the hate motivated crime statute and the cross burning prohibition statute. And then the last thing you did was to include some language that required an annual report to the General Assembly specifically the committees on judiciary. That required the Department of State's attorneys and sheriffs and the office of the Attorney General to report data to the committees on categories of bias motivation and types of offenses that were coded with an offender bias motivation. And that was to be an annual report to the committees and some other it was required some other reporting as well. So that's what you did and the Senate, first of all removed that annual report requirements. So that no longer appears in the hate crimes statute. They left the your removal of the word maliciously so that's still not there. And they added the words and whole or in part if you're looking at the Senate amendment you'll see that online 10. The language now provides that a person who commits any crime whose conduct is motivated in whole or in part by the victims protected status is subject to criminal penalties. The second change that they made was to you'll see that the list of protected categories is struck out there on lines 11 through 13 and replaced with the term protected category. So they've defined the word protected category in subsection see so they've just sort of taken that list out and plopped it into a definition instead. They, the change of adding the National Guard they left there. And lastly they've added this subsection be which is a provision that the victims actual or perceived protected category doesn't need to be the predominant or the sole reason for the defendants conduct. So that sort of plays ties together with the language in whole or in part that they inserted in subsection a. Section two remains the same as the house pass version just removing the word maliciously in the cross burning statute. And then they added section three, and this is subset subdivision six from the civil statute on hate crimes. And this was really just my suggestion for a technical correction to drop in or the National Guard in that statute, as well, where it defines protected category. That is the extent of the changes. And I see that there are questions. Thank you bring today. They take any testimony on the the data section. I do not believe that they did take testimony on that section. But I can recall, I wasn't always there. So I can't say that with certainty, but I don't believe so. Okay. And any discussion that you remember about about that section and I take it out that I think that there was a concern about the burden. On the, the entities that were tasked with, with collecting and reporting that data. And I believe there was also some conversation about the number of reports that are received by the General Assembly and whether or not they are reviewed. Thank you. Ken's hand up. Ken Martin. Brent, will you just explain to me on that line 10 what in whole or in part what what what does that mean why was that inserted. So that it essentially broadens the the statute a little bit to so that if a prosecutor is seeking this enhanced penalty. So if a person commits a crime, and that crime is motivated by the victims protected status. Essentially what it's saying is that the person could have more than one reason for committing this crime against this particular victim. The victims protected status need not be the only reason for the defendant's criminal conduct towards the victim. Thank you. Yeah, that. All right, thank you. That was going to be one of my questions to about that in whole or in part. So, so Brent, does that make it easier to charge somebody. Harder to charge somebody I mean if it's broader I guess it's going to be easier to charge somebody and I'm just wondering if there could be some ramifications with it with people. Maybe getting potentially getting charged with something they didn't do I guess. Would that be more possible. Well, I think you could see it as as potentially being easier for prosecutors to obtain a conviction although it may also be seen as clarification because the existing language doesn't specify if it has to be the only reason. So it may, you could look at it both ways I suppose. Sure, sure. Yeah, great thank you. And I just find it interesting and maybe you can explain why in section one a race color religion all that's crossed out but then in the following sections that's put back in. I think I think two more time. So that that was really. This was I see this is really a technical change to the to the section of law because that's how it's written in the civil counterpart. It's the list is defined as protected category. And so that way you don't have this long list that's hanging out in this in this language about what is prohibited and instead you've got a definition that you can reference. Okay. So I see that as really being more of a technical change there. All right, great. And one more. If you can do it real quick. What did the study do the study that was in the house version. Yes, yeah the study that they pulled. There wasn't a study so much as it was a it was a requirement for data reporting. And it required that the. I'm just going to pull it up really quickly. It required that the how that the executive director for states attorneys and sheriffs and the Office of the Attorney General. In an annual report that detailed for the prior year, all incidents that were reported to the national incident based reporting system on for crimes that were bias motivated. Any convictions in the criminal division that were enhanced pursuant to the hate crime statute. Any reported bias incidents that resulted in a final judgment in the in the civil division. And that feasible you require that demographic information about the defendants be included and the reporting protect the confidentiality of the victims. Right and you said you weren't there so you weren't sure why. So they, there was some conversation about it I wasn't there for every hearing so there may have been testimony taken that I missed. But they, they, there was some sort of general conversation about the number of reports that are received by the General Assembly and, and, and questions about whether those reports were always were always read by by members. Right, right. And would there be. We've done a lot of stuff here in the last, you know, couple years around, you know, mainly around race but in now we're getting more into the gender stuff but is there other reporting or studies or anything like that that could that that may make up for some of that information. I know that I don't feel like I'm equipped to answer that at the moment because I'm not sure where the status of all of the bills that are moving that I am not drafting. Sure. So I know that there are some days some bills that may not be making it all the way through this year that require a bunch of data collection. But I'm not up to speed on all of them. I'm sorry. I don't know. I understand. There's only one, what, what seven 800 I don't know. All right, thank you. And I do want to point out that that this language was worked on, I believe by James Pepper, the Attorney General's office. I think the victims advocates were involved, but I wouldn't an ability to do this. I'm not I'm not sure that's an issue because, because this was a proposal that was that was brought forth to us from from stakeholders.  I just hate to see it doubled up I guess you know if there's anything else and, you know, going through the legislature. I understand that's why we need a Bureau of Racial Statistics at some point. But that's another conversation. But yeah, I agree. Instead of having it piecemeal throughout we need an entity that will do that important work. Let's see. Ken Selina and Martin. I think Martin was up before I was there. I can see you Ken. Go ahead. So, just so, Brent, just to go back to that. I don't want to make too big of a deal of this but that that in whole or in part couldn't. The one thing I really scares me about things is wouldn't two lawyers interpret take those things differently. That meaning differently I should say. Well, I think lawyers can always interpret things differently I know. You know, I think that's kind of the nature of lawyers but I think if your question is, if, if that is clear language, that is language that other states use in their hate crime statutes. And I think that it is clarified by the by subdivision be that language provides that the victims protected status doesn't need to be the predominant reason or the only reason for defendants conduct. So, I hope that helps you in your determination of whether or not it's clear enough. Yeah, your first part of that answer was probably one of the best ever. Thanks. Okay. Go ahead Martin. As a lawyer, I resemble that I suppose. So, actually, I can was getting to the issue and you answered one of my questions is whether other states did this and or had the same kind of language. Another question I had and I think you probably answered this one as well but I want to make sure that that would when we have different language and be is that clarifying what we mean and all in whole or in part where we're using slightly different language, the predominant or the sole reason I mean is just this like piling on or, or giving more clarity or is it going to confuse things because we're using two different phrases. Um, you know, we did the committee did talk a little bit about whether they should limit it to just that and whole or in part, and an earlier draft of the bill was a little bit broader and it provided that the defendants conduct need not be. A significant reason was the word that was used a significant reason the predominant reason or the, and they removed that I can't remember if it was significant I may have to check on that. But they, they tried to narrow it and scope a little bit so that it was, it was instead it doesn't have to be a predominant or sole reason for the defendants conduct. I think that the Senate ultimately came to the conclusion that it provided additional clarity, as opposed to muddling things, which is why they did it that way. And is it unfair for me to ask you if you agree with that. Um, I, you know, to me I see it as really a policy question whether you want to become that specific about about how much of a motivation factor it needs to be, or if you want to leave it in the hands of the court to decide. I think that if you left it as in whole or in part it would be a little bit less specific than it is now with the, with the additional language and subdivision be. All right, so one one other question in, I think this is to, to perhaps help us and how, how this will be interpreted. Could you tell us kind of the standard that a court uses when they're, if there's any kind of ambiguity in a criminal statute, how it's my understanding that the court reads it in favor of a defendant. I may have that slightly wrong if you're able to kind of elucidate that a little bit. So they'll look to the plain meaning of the words. I mean there I think they there's several things that courts will look to and interpreting a statute they'll look to the plain meaning of the words they'll try and interpret it in a way that makes sense as opposed to you know they want to avoid any result that would either be nonsensical or unfair. And, and, but with respect to criminal statutes in particular is that your question. Yeah, yeah, I thought that there was a standard of interpretation that kind of gives a benefit of the doubt to a defendant. I think that is, I, that does sound right to me in order to give you the precise standard I'd like to take a minute to look it up. But it would be nice to have that just generally because when we look at these kind of cases to understand, you know, if there is any ambiguity where, where, where does it fall. So, I would appreciate that. And it doesn't have to be now just email it to us at some point yeah, yeah. Okay. Okay, then I'll move to Selena. This is a little redundant. It's just, I was actually raised my hand to comment on what you said about the reporting section way back which is that that section had, there had been work with, I think, crime research group and others and I drew on work from those bills to just really make sure that we were talking about an achievable, you know, existing data set that could be readily communicated into reports so I don't know if this bill is the right, ultimately the right place for that provision but it is something that I think was very important to the sponsors of each 128 and that would love to try to find a home for seeing if we can continue to carry that forward. Right. So it passed the Senate today. Micah message today and be on notice. Yes, we'll be on notice tomorrow. I'm just trying to think about how much time we have to think it through. Yep, it should be on notice in the house tomorrow. Okay. Right. Any other questions or, or thoughts. So I do have the answer to represent the long question, but I can wait until everybody else finishes asking their question. Go ahead. Okay, so I can send that there's some some Supreme Court cases that talk about this and I can send them to the committee. There's a rule of lenity that requires the court to resolve any statutory ambiguity in favor of the criminal defendant. And it's been ingrained in the criminal law for decades, I believe in since the early 1800s. So if there is, if there is a doubt that in the construction of the statute then it will resolve it in favor of the defendant. I appreciate that. I appreciate that. So, so Ken can sound like an attorney in the future he just has to remember the rule of lenity. And then thank you, Brent. Barbara. So in trying to decide our options is there. Are you worried that if there were a conference committee, there wouldn't be time to address it if it should. Seriously, should that be an option. So much. I'm not so much worried about time I'm just kind of thinking it through as to whether or not there is another bill to to put it on. You know, certainly other miscellaneous judiciary bill. Right. Okay. Right. But this, but it was important to the, to the bills sponsors of 128 it was important to us. Right. And there was, there was work done on, on behalf of the group that got together to right and came back with very specific recommendations about what could be obtained but what, you know, right. And we know data is important, but it is curious why it got taken out. Yeah. So, given that we don't have to act today. I think it's, I think it's a good idea for us to, to wait and think about it. Thanks. And then tomorrow with Martin you have a big lineup of witnesses but we need to carve out some time tomorrow morning to, to respond to this if it's on, if it's on notice tomorrow so that will be prepared for Thursday. I mean tomorrow is Thursday. So we'll be prepared for Friday. Yeah. So, okay. All right. So any other questions for Bryn before we adjourn. Okay. All right. So before we do, Madam Speaker, Madam Chair, sorry, it's been a long day. So I'm wondering if we should talk in a committee about each 317 and where we're going to try to head for that or should we talk offline later. Either way, did you want to report on the RDAT meeting or something? Yeah. Yeah. And if coach wants to, perhaps just, just to let folks know where we are and what coach and I think the next step is going to be. Coach, are you with that or do you want to do that some other time? If we could probably do it pretty succinctly. All right. Yeah, go ahead. If you want me to, I'm deferring to you coach, I'm deferring to you. Well, I think everybody's aware of the proposal that we put forth to our DAP. And that was to have our DAP be the home of the Bureau of Racial Statistics. So they called a special meeting that occurred on Tuesday. And upon their review of the proposal, there was a lot of interest. But as there always is with these, you know, standing up a new program, there's always a lot of questions as well. So, basically, where we're at. And what we would like to propose is is that we shift this to a working group that would formalize the details of the move. So that when we come back at the beginning of the next session, we'll be able to move the program forward. And this way, everyone, all of the players, the partners, because when you look at the composition of our DAP. It's, it, it encompasses the areas that we would want it to. And having it sit there. There's just a few minor corrections that the bill would take moving forward. For example, the language to include the office of racial equity into our DAP itself. It was there because it wasn't an existence when our DAP passed. The office has been participating, but it's been kind of participating. Ex officio. So, what we would be doing in this new draft would be setting forth the expectations of the working group. We would correct the statutory language for the office of racial equity, and also correct the size of our DAP to include two additional members that would be appointed by the office of racial equity to also add more community voice of the affected communities to the committee, which they felt very comfortable with those amendments. So that that's the cliff notes version. Does that. Yeah, I think the bottom line is to try to having a having a working group to kind of iron out those details. And that by the end of the year will have those details worked out into either 317 or a different bill. And I think the concept that the working group and what I would propose is that it would go into the miscellaneous judiciary bill. And I also talked to, I was talking to Eric about as green just asked him what kind of timing he had so perhaps coach and I, if there's somebody else wants to be part of it, we'll be talking with Eric. Hopefully by the end of this week Friday or Monday, depending on your schedule coach to get some language together that we can look at next week. Cool. Thank you. Thank you. That's helpful and I did last week, speak to Sarah Freeman from the Council for State Governments, who has been attending our DAP meetings and looking closely at this issue in her role as consulting on justice for investment too. So, and she also had some, some thoughts and models of some other states that we could look to but Yeah, and she's she was there last night. I think that's very eager to be part of this as well. It's kind of folded into justice for investment too. Right. So I forgot to mention that. Right. Thanks for mentioning that because she was a she shared, you know her thoughts on behalf of CSG and that I think helped some of the other members see that this couldn't move forward in a positive way. Okay. Great, so you'll be meeting with with Eric to get some some language correct. And Sarah and I we're going to talk after last night's meeting so I'll check in with her as well but but yeah that sounds good. Thank you. Okay, let's adjourn because I have a meeting and I'm sure other people have more meetings as well and phone calls to make before the meeting.


Some new businesses are coming to Niswa near the Sportland Corners Intersection. The expected increase in traffic is motivating the city to make some improvements to the already busy intersection. American National Banks is currently building their headquarters on the northeast corner of the intersection. The building will also include at least two new retail spaces and a coffee shop. The city of Niswa has been hoping to develop the site for quite some time after it was left open by the former Sportland Cafe. The building is slated to be open in the spring. Any development is a really positive a positive thing for the city to see. So it brings in more tax base and it brings in hopefully some some more jobs. Even if it's just two or three or four we we'd love to have really good quality jobs and bring in people working here because they love to live in this area and to work somewhere nearby is really great as well. The new Sportland Corners Development is expected to increase traffic and the already busy intersection of Highway 371 and County Road 77 slash County Road 13. The project will add left hand turn signals for motorists turning onto Highway 371 from the county roads increasing safety. They're working on adding some new turn lanes to the intersection and some more space for travel. We're looking to incorporate a bike trail for ease of access and safety across the intersection which would be great and so with the development at the bank the county saw that there was just an opportunity to help get that project also completed and so they did move up their project to next summer and so they'll be redoing that intersection which will be really much needed. The construction on the intersection is planned to start this summer after the 4th of July holiday. If you enjoyed this segment of Lakeland news please consider making a tax deductible contribution to Lakeland PBS.


English vocabulary word of the day, jerk, from espressoenglish.net. First let's learn how to pronounce it. The J sounds like in the words juice, jam, and journey. And the letters ER sound like in the words were, learn, and bird.   For example, I jerked my hand away from the hot stove. If the stove is hot and you put your hand near it, you would remove your hand very fast because the stove is hot. Now you can say, I jerked my hand away. The word jerked refers to a sudden movement. Here's another example.  This means that the train started moving forward suddenly and with a lot of force. It wasn't a smooth movement.  If you call a person a jerk, it means that person is mean and they treat other people badly. For example, he told lies about me to all my friends.   So again, calling someone a jerk means that the person is mean or rude. This is insulting, so be careful when you use this word.  For example, she doesn't really like him.  Jerking someone around is not a nice thing to do to someone.  To continue your study of vocabulary, check out my vocabulary builder course, which will teach you a lot more new words every day. You can click on the link in the video to take some free sample lessons.


Liquid robotics is unique because we've created a completely new type of vehicle. We call it the wave glider and the wave glider runs entirely on renewable energy And what's really significant about that is that the renewable energy in the area that it operates, which is the ocean Waves and solar power Gives it persistence. It allows it to stay out in the ocean for long periods of time and that's what's new So the wave glider uses wave motion for propulsion It uses solar energy to power the sensors and payloads that it'll carry and this gives us a platform for data collection in the ocean It allows us to do fundamentally new things and existing things in new much more cost-effective ways We can monitor weather. We can monitor extreme events, tsunamis, hurricanes, earthquakes. We'll then transmit that data via satellite Back to wherever the operators are here Where we can pull it up on the screen and see what's going on out there There is no recipe for innovation. If there were we would follow it and it wouldn't be innovative anymore I think that there are some Ingredients that were in place at least when The the wave glider was born and as liquid robotics was formed I think part of it is a willingness to suspend disbelief and work on things that seem like they might be fanciful or even futile And and that's what makes hard. That's that I think that's one of the big reasons why it's hard for big companies to innovate It's it's hard to allow people to work on things that seem fanciful and futile It'd be hard to make to know the difference between that and really wasting their time When you stand on the beach and look out at the ocean You see waves and blue water and and honestly almost no matter what happens To humanity in the ocean. That's probably what you would see But that is such just the tiniest part of what's happening in the ocean Which is filled with tremendously intricate processes that aren't just isolated to the ocean they relate to our lives The interrelationship of processes requires constant detailed monitoring spread out both in time and space and The wave glider is a cost-effective platform. We can put thousands of them out there That are mobile they can monitor What's happening where they are and Travel a Survey pattern or they may just stay put just like a buoy would but they can stay out there for long periods of time and Get continuous data streams. That's what's hard to do from a ship A ship will go out, but then it has to come back a month or so later For refueling and because the crew wants to get off and do something else the wave gliders don't have that constraint They can stay out there for Really as long as we want them to they're not going to run out of fuel. They're not going to They don't need food or or or to see their family and So It's it's a new way of gathering data from the ocean that is Really exciting and how it's going to enable us to understand the planet better and we really need to do that


One third, one third, one third, if you go up 15, half quarter quarter. Hi, we're Zimqouzi. We're part of Art in Action today, where Art in Action is an event that was sponsored by Wild Women in Leadership Davis, and I'm actually in one of the committee members as well. And basically there's different, it's an art walk highlighting all the victims of police brutality and the African American women that were the ones who gained our voting rights. And so we're celebrating our civil rights leaders and women who couldn't be because their lives were cut short. So as Zimqouzi, we're happy to be a part of this. We have appetizers and you can speak with the owner for armadillo music and they're providing beer. And so it should be a great night. Hope everyone can enjoy the walk. Women should be here for 10 days. So if you missed it today, you can walk around downtown, download the map on our Facebook page, Wild Events Davis, and just take a walk with your family.


Houston to Linus, okay. I attempted to send command 35 twice. I got zero three both times I'm now in command path enable RF payloads copies flight. We'll be sending the pre-deploy check check out command from Hawaii Okay, we copy that mark. We'll send the pre-deploy check out from Hawaii That's controller check out definitely could be moved It'll be AP3 tank fuel line H2O sys A and B AP3 what tank fuel line H2O sys A and B to auto for 18 minutes and Then to off for 42 minutes and then repeat 18 and 42 18 on 42 off. That's correct. Okay We'd like you to take APO aligns. Okay, Ron's writing that down. Yeah, you command failure in that Stand by one flight. Stand by on that mark Flight Econ. Go ahead. Essential one BC Here you come Essential one BC So we need to go into the orbit. Did it not get done over Hawaii? We did the pre-deploy check out. It was successful we want to Perform the the direct check per the nominal timeline put the stage in 16 and So the crew just needs to stay command path enable RF And we'll do direct and direct check where BTS. That's the next side here Okay copy One two three and we momentarily recovered one DC but almost immediately dropped back off you will sell one We're looking Ron back with you second Say it again that'd be circuit breaker main a OI MDM OF 3 slash 4 a And on his 16 main COI MDM OF 3 slash 4 Bravo open I get That one Okay Now we want to close those Hey, that's once closed Merry another item. Well, you know you dropped it. We need spec 62 SM. Well, wait a minute. We need But we need G and seek. Oh, I just didn't want to be catches with Okay I have no miss a roll You can do it you can you can Go my voice check Okay, we have a load in progress What have we got all these lights for Coming up on the maneuver to Star a line at a dude Atlantis Houston for mark direct check is complete who are go for the PI link check out and later on this pass We will troubleshoot the hard line command path problem over Houston Atlanta Yeah, we have been trying to get a PI lock at this point. We've gone through the RF acquisition procedures SSR to and we can't get a lock on either PI


As a Government, we are conscious people in Wales and around the world are seeking better, more sustainable ways of living. Here in Wales, we've always known the importance of sustainability, so the larder is well stocked for future generations. But now those values seem more important than ever. Our future vision is in step with this drive to make Wales the definition for quality and sustainable food and drink. To coin a well-used phrase here in Wales, we appreciate striving towards sustainable development as outlined in our world-leading Well-Being of Future Generations Act is a process and not an event. We certainly are not claiming to have reached the final destination. Instead, we fully understand that as a Government we have our role to play in committing to and ensuring that sustainability is seen as a crucial element of the whole food and drink supply chain. From the field and the sea, all the way to people's plates. The journey's end, which we'll be travelling towards in the coming years, together with our industry partners, will be to create a strong and vibrant Welsh food and drink sector. With a global reputation for excellence, having one of the most environmentally and socially responsible supply chains in the world. A range of good work is already underway in this area, be it our recently launched sustainability cluster, which has already gathered a range of innovative businesses together to share best practice in sustainable production and lead the food industry charge. Through to our forward-thinking food centre partners, Food Innovation Wales and the AMRC Cymru, which support businesses on a daily basis in reducing waste and increasing innovation built on green opportunities. Our vision, however, needs to be met with measurable goals. Our aim over the coming years will be to support our industry towards these measured goals in the area of sustainability, to reach for the highest levels of environmental and ethical standards, whilst driving more businesses to earn best practice accreditation. Through championing sustainability at the heart of food and drink production, we as a government seek to provide an added level of support to those trailblazing companies. They realise, like we do, that working with nature and working for nature pays back in deeper flasers. This is food and drink at its very best. This is Wales.


We have an inalienable right to defend ourselves. Gun is just a tool to make the job easier. There's nothing for a white guy to walk down the street with his rifle on his back, and everything's just fine. When a black person does it, we're a thug, we're an animal, we're about to go stick up a store or something. Dead center!  I train in hand-to-hand combat every day, even by myself. When no one's around, I train. Because it may save my life, but more importantly, it may save the lives of whoever's with me. When I talk to people in the African-American community, I hear they want protection. There were some guys that came around and were shooting protesters, and the protesters were saying that they were yelling some racial slurs. And that was when I decided to go back out there.  In the post-Civil War period, the late 19th and early 20th century, you have state officials who basically are in league with groups like the Ku Klux Klan. I think that situation is mitigated to some extent by the fact that black people in the South, in fact, are armed and are able to defend themselves. So there's a tremendous push in the 1950s and 1960s for black voter registration. We've got to make sure that they are reached and get into the city to do the voting.  So you have groups beginning to be formed designed to protect the black community and protect civil rights workers who are registering black voters. The most effective of these, I would argue, was a group called the Deacons for Defense and Justice. The Deacons for Defense and Justice were basically black men who had been veterans of the Second World War or the Korean War. The Panthers were very good at publicity and not particularly good at protecting black communities. The Deacons, on the other hand, has just very silently let it be known if you try to harm people in our community or the people working with us, it's not going to go very well for you. An illegal right to defend ourselves. Gun is just something that I had to grab every day and bring with me, hoping that nothing would happen. But if it ever had to come to that situation, then at least the option is open. Our streets! Our streets! Our streets! I get the strangest looks when I walk around looking like this.  But then black people, all of a sudden you see a pride just swell up in their chest when they see me walk around like this.  He knows that he has those rights too. I feel like a lot of people when they look at guns, they look at it from a victim's mentality. They look at it as what can a gun do to me, not versus what can a gun do for me. You're at a protest that is talking about the inequalities in the justice system and police brutality and then you mentally have wired yourself to believe that only the cops should have the gun to protect you and other people. And I just thought that that was really ironic. Middle finger to the law! Middle finger to the law! Middle finger to the law! But yeah, there's nothing for a white guy to walk down the street with his rifle on his back and everything's just fine. NRA, second amendment, this side and the other. But when a black person does it, we're a thug, we're an animal. We're about to go stick up a store or something. But when you see these animals and thugs that they like to call us, well armed, well organized, yeah, it makes you stop and think. Yeah, these guns aren't just for the races, the KKK, the Nazis and everything else. These are also for those rogue police officers. Those ones that like to brutalize us and harm us and get away with it. No, we're not doing that anymore. My man, Eric Garner, six years ago, another reason why I had this hat made that says, I can't breathe. Because that's what he said when he was being choked out by police for selling loose cigarettes. It's funny, I got the hat made six years after he set it and six weeks after George Floyd set it. And there's the whole story about Philando Castile right there. The baby was in the back seat. He's told him I have a concealed weapons permit. Show it to me. He reaches for it and the man kills him. Kills him. Where was the NRA then? Silence.  When you walk around the statue and you see pictures and birthdays and brief descriptions. How many more of these signs would you like to see before it would change your mind that maybe you're responsible for your own protection? One of the most frequent things that I've always heard is that I would be killed by a cop. They believe that a cop's perception of me being armed is going to be the reason why I get shot. I can honestly say traffic stops prior to me being armed are extremely different than when I am armed. And cops are a lot more friendly and a lot more open to communication when the playing fields are the same. Everybody's out here. You know what I'm saying? Stop listening to the media.  We all here singing songs about freedom. Ain't it great when we win? Almost a month ago, if you notice, wasn't that many of us out there with guns? Now look at night. Big difference, right? Big difference. We're peaceful but we're always going to be protected. And that's been my mission. I believe that I'm channeling my ancestors. I'm channeling our activists before. You had in the 60s and before a situation where there was little or no help from the federal government. In protecting your civil rights. That's not the case today. There's still the issue of how well are you protected? Do you want to totally surrender your ability to protect yourself to others? Basic question, is it a good thing to be helpless? Am I saying no?


Hi, my name is Luca Sartoni and I am the Global Lead for the Volunteers Team here at Work and Europe. This year we had a blast, we had more than 200 volunteers on shift for three days because we did Contributors Day and then two days of conference and everything went pretty well. We have people from all over the world, we have a large number of volunteers that they come from the local community but also from the international community and it's great. You should totally come to Work and Europe even in the following years in the next years because this is a great experience for everyone and you should totally also apply as a volunteer because it's the best way to feel this vibe at this kind of conference.


And welcome to Business in Hawaii with Reg Baker. We broadcast live every Thursday from 2 to 2.30 in the downtown studios of Think Tech Hawaii in the Pioneer Plaza. It's a beautiful sunny day here in Hololulu, so if you're on the east coast, my condolences. We have a returning guest here today, Carl Williams. He's a founding partner, owner of one of the larger local firms here in Hawaii, and very successful in being able to recruit a lot of young professionals into the profession. And he's brought one of his young professionals, an auto manager, with him today, MJ. And we're going to talk a little bit about how the industry has transitioned over the years, a little bit on how millennials are fitting into the new environment. And it's going to be a very interesting conversation. The last time Carl was on the show, we talked a little bit about the good old days. And I think today is maybe the better days. So things have changed quite a bit over the years. Welcome back, Carl. MJ, good to have you on the show today. Thank you. Carl, why don't you kind of set the stage for us? MJ has been with the firm for a while, and you brought her on board. And what did she do? I did. It certainly is the better days, by the way, with this electronic environment. Yeah, MJ has been with us for quite a few years. And she joined us when she was a part-time student at the University of Hawaii, getting her back degree. So we're very proud of that, and then full-time after that. But I'm especially proud of our relationship, employee relationship with MJ, because it embodies, I think, that relationship embodies what our firm is all about in terms of family. Because after getting her Master's of Accountancy degrees, she's gone on to raise to ages six and four anyway, two beautiful young children, and that's not easy. It was never easy for a woman in the past, and it's still not very easy these days. So we're especially proud of that. So we have recently, because of her personality and because of her love of the profession, we have recently charged her with our recruiting, being in charge of our recruiting activities, because she connects so well to people, and particularly young people, and can tell the story of our firm and our profession. That must be kind of exciting for you, MJ. It's kind of like on full circle. It has. It has. So you've finished the education, you've been working for a while, now you get to go back and visit with the people, and tell them what kind of great firm you're working for. Yes. So how often do you do that? I do it both for our firm, also with the YCPA squad. So in a typical year, I will go to visit not only the college students, but the high school students with the YCPA, and we go to talk to high school students about our profession, what it's really like. We're not sitting in the cubicle, 12 hours out of the day, we're actually interacting with people. You get to see the sunlight every once in a while. Once in a while. Yeah. Yeah. My nice tan. Very good. And so are you always looking for people? I mean, is this a year-round effort on your part? Yes, it is. Yes, it is. We're always looking for people, and people, students especially, they're in different stages of their lives. So it's important that we don't close that door to them just because they missed the window. Right. Now, you've gone through the education, you started your career. What do you tell people, particularly when you go out to the high schools? I mean, people hear about becoming an accountant or being a CPA, and they've got this image. Right. But it's not always an accurate image. So how do you get people excited to maybe consider being an accountant or a CPA's a career? Right. So Hollywood hasn't done a very good job of portraying our profession, I would say. So we try to connect with them by saying, you know...  No, but we try to connect with them by saying that, you know, with an accounting degree especially, it's so portable, and you can go and work at a hotel, you can go work for the government, you can go into public accounting, you can go into education. And so they don't really know that or realize that. And I know back in high school, I didn't know that. So my big dream was to become that counts payable clerk somewhere because that's what I thought accounting was, but, you know, public accounting is such a great profession because you get to go to all these different companies and see how they operate and where you could potentially end up in the future. Let's see, that's a very good point is that, you know, by coming an experienced accountant that opens up a lot of doors for a lot of different industries and different types of businesses. As a matter of fact, I have to think, I mean, are there any businesses out there that don't have accountants? Not. I'm aware of it. I mean, almost everybody... No legal business. No legal business.  And so it really opens up a whole world of possibilities once you get that experience. And Carl, I know from my experience in today's environment, it's really hard to find good accountants. We, when I say we, I mean MJ, but we work very hard at finding the right people. But when you say good accountant, it's not just a skill set. And in fact, there's some really smart people out there, smart accountants out there who are maybe not quote unquote good accountants, because as MJ said, it's very much a people business, at least as an auditor, because we're out working with business owners, working with their personnel week after week, day after day. So it takes a lot of skills beyond book skills, which is part of what we love about this profession is the interaction we get, not only the experience with different types of businesses, but with different types of people. We love it. Right. And that makes you very valuable, valuable to the firm, but also valuable if you ever decide that you want a different career. It gives you a lot of options. Right. Yep, for sure. That's right. So how many people do you talk to and try to convince to maybe explore CW as an option for them? I mean, you must be pretty busy. I constantly talk to students on whether it is a professional mixer with the YCPA squad. We go out to the colleges. We do mock interviews. We do workshops regarding interviews, resume writing, and we do the workshop. But after that, it's those five, 10 minutes after the workshop that become extremely valuable, because then we can tell them about our firm, answer any of their questions. And that's important, because if you're not part of a club, like the accounting club or beta alpha side, you don't really get to bridge that gap between school and the professionals. Right. As a matter of fact, some of those firms will actually have like a tour you can go on to go into the firm and take a look at, see what that environment is like. Yes, and we as a firm do participate in that every semester, so the students come, they see where we work, they meet our people, they sit down and have a quick meal and drinks with them. Right. And that's where you really start to find out about the person's interpersonal skill level. Right. Having a meal or maybe even the cocktails afterwards or whatever, I mean it's where you really see the interaction start taking place. Right, right. Yeah, that's very good. Carl, how has that changed from back when we were, you know, I guess in our younger days when we're starting out our career? I think the skill set and the recruiting are still very similar to what we did in the past, but I think of course the millennials and younger people are different than they were and the reward system is I think somewhat different than it used to be. One of my biggest challenges over the years has been to provide opportunities for young people to grow and succeed and to have different experiences. I've been reading a lot of material on generational issues for, well, a number of years now and, you know, that's one of the issues and this idea of having to rotate or move, change jobs every couple of years to get new types of experiences, we try so hard to overcome that sort of mentality by providing new challenges and new experiences. Yes, it's within the public accounting framework, but providing that and to keep our people stimulated professionally and that's the toughest part of my job and I dare say we've had some success mostly by collaborating with the MJs of the firm and others. I think maybe in a public accounting environment such as your firm, because you've got the different companies in the different industries that allows you some opportunity to rotate people around so they can get this intellectual challenge and get that stimulation that they're looking for. Right, right. Yeah, it's very convenient. MJ, explain for those that are about ready to start. What is a typical day for you? And I know today may be different than what it was a few years ago when you were starting out, but when you were first starting out and like your first few weeks on a job, what was it like? Auditing is very exciting. So you actually get to work in a team of at our firm, three or four people, you go out to the client, you get to meet their accounting department, you get to talk to sometimes their CFOs. The first few days is really just learning about how they operate and where there could be challenges as far as on the accounting side and sitting down and talking through and understanding what they do every day so that we can figure out where's the risk or where can we make it better or where can we help them. So that's what we're doing. And so you document all this too? Yes, yes. And you use technology occasionally? Some of it is memo driven. And then yes, we do have software that helps us document our risks than the areas that we want to focus in on more. You know, I just want to elaborate on that a little about the interesting part of being an auditor is risk assessment is a big factor in planning and the beginning part of it. And what risk assessment really means is understanding the business and the people and what they do. So that's what I think we had kind of alluded to earlier. It's just really taking a deep dive into how businesses operate and again, that's the exciting part of our job I think. Very exciting because in the best case scenario you're getting to see firsthand some of the best practices that are out there and you can see how it works. On the other hand, sometimes you see some practices that aren't so good and you get full exposure to that whole scope or range which allows you after a few years' experience to help the client improve their internal processes. Yeah, and there's no bigger compliment, and I've been doing this many years probably obviously I guess, but as have you, but there's no bigger compliment than going to an anniversary, I went to one recently there, 25th anniversary and being singled out as an individual and firm that were part of their success. I mean it's such a wonderful feeling because we're accountants, right? So to be put in that category, it really is. We're going to have to go on break here in a minute, but part of what I want to talk about in the second half is what exactly does a CPA firm do? I mean there may be people out there, maybe in the high school level or maybe in their second year, third year of college or thinking about accounting major, but they're not sure where they want to go, private, public, whatever, so let's talk about the world of public accounting and what that's all about and we'll do that as soon as we get done with this break. This is Business in Hawaii with Reg Baker. We're here today talking with a CPA firm that's going to be explaining a little bit more to us about what they do.  I'm DeSoto Brown, the co-host of Human Humane Architecture which is seen on Think Tech Hawaii every other Tuesday at 4 p.m. and with the show's host, Martin Desbang, we discuss architecture here in the Hawaiian Islands and how it not only affects the way we live, but other aspects of our life, not only here in Hawaii, but internationally as well. So join us for Human Humane Architecture every other Tuesday at 4 p.m. on Think Tech Hawaii. Aloha, I'm Kili Ikeena and I'm here every other week on Mondays at 2 o'clock p.m. on Think Tech Hawaii's Hawaii Together. In Hawaii Together, we talk with some of the most fascinating people in the islands about working together, working together for a better economy, government and society. So I invite you into our conversation every other Monday at 2 p.m. on Think Tech Hawaii Broadcast Network. Join us for Hawaii Together. I'm Kili Ikeena. Aloha. Welcome back. This is Reg Baker, business in Hawaii. We're here today talking with the CPA firm in town and I realize that this is right in the middle of tax season, but rest assured we've got two auditors here today so they were able to sneak out of the office for a little bit. Carl, MJ, good to have you here today. Thank you. There's going to be a lot of people that may be watching that don't really quite understand what a CPA firm is and of course a lot of the knee-jerk reaction, oh, they do taxes. Well, okay, they do, but there's also different pieces of a CPA firm that does different things. Carl, can you just give us a brief outline of what that might be? Sure. So our firm might be a little bit different and just to give a little perspective, about 60% roughly two-thirds of our practice is doing financial reporting, auditing, if you will, and the other 30%, 40% of it is doing tax. We kind of differentiate between what we call compliance work, which is tax work that's required to do, and there are some audits that are required by governmental agencies or by regulation or whatever with what we refer to as the attest function. And so the financial reporting, audits and reviews, we serve in the attest function. We go into the client's business, they give us a set of financial statements that they intend to present to the bank, to the owners, the stockholders, to creditors or whatever, and we do enough testing of that information to attest to it and give an opinion on the fairness and whether it's reasonably accurate. We never say it's precisely accurate, but we're saying it's reasonably accurate. And I've always thought you can kind of liken that a little bit to an insurance policy that if you see financial statements with our name on it and you're intending to invest or loan money to that entity or make a donation in a non-profit, then you have assurance that it is reasonably accurate and that you can rely on that financial information for your decision-making. So that in a nutshell is what we do. And in that type of audit environment, you're pretty much looking to see the results of what the company has put together as far as a set of financial statements, and then you check to see if it's in conformity with the accounting standards or whatever it is. They've got to be in compliance with that. And then that's where you have that opinion later saying that, yeah, it looks okay. So the management is really asserting that's the term we use, but they're asserting that the financial statements are accurate and we are testing those assertions by testing the underlying information and documentation. So now that's the audit side. And now you got the tax side, which also has a compliance component to it. But does your firm get into tax planning at all? Quite a bit. That's the biggest part of it. I think one of the biggest complaints actually about CPAs is they tend to be, particularly in the tax areas, they tend to be too much compliance oriented where they take information, put it in a tax return and send it back. And they do everything strictly by the code. And strictly by the code. Well, you have to do it by the code. Otherwise someone will come knocking at your door. But yeah, being proactive is just a huge part of what we do. We know from studies that have been done for years that business owners and individuals see their attorneys or bankers and their accountants as their business advisors. So we always tell our guys, if you think of yourself as a bean counter auditor or as a tax preparer and limited to that, there's an inherent conflict and you're going to lose because people will want to go to someone else who is more proactive in providing information and helping them with their decisions and trying to get ahead of the curve somewhat, especially these days with new tax laws. Well, and the ever-changing tax laws. Ever-changing tax laws. We just had the tax reform as everybody knows and they're still trying to figure out exactly what we are, how's that going to work. But I guess getting into the tax returns, that also provides a lot of opportunity to do more planning, or maybe some guidance in how to do things that would have a more positive tax effect. It also helps build the relationship with the client a little bit, too. For sure, yeah. So all of that, and do you find, this is kind of a loaded question, but do you find the personalities between the two groups different? I mean, are auditors different than auditors in a CPA firm? That is a loaded question. Somebody was telling me earlier about how to have a good Christmas party. And my answer was you don't invite the CPA. But you had another answer, which we don't have to go into. We're not going to go there. And part of it is because there's, in some ways, two different objectives. There's two different end games here that's involved. That's what they're getting paid for, is to move to that end game. Of course, there's going to be different approaches. And I don't know if this has changed very much from my days, but we used to have another part that was more of a consultancy piece that we would spend some time on, and we would actually get involved. We had some tax, and we probably understood the finances, but we got more engaged with the client and helped them go through some of their management issues. Do we still do that today? Absolutely. I think I referred about 60% of our practice being audited, about 40% or so being taxed. But in the middle, probably 10%, 15% of our practice is the overlap between the two, which I've always referred to as general business consulting. And that includes mergers and acquisitions. One thing we've been doing a lot of in the recent years is business transition. Father to son, uncle to nephew, if it's not just a straight sale. Preparing for that, becoming an ESOP, Employee Stock Ownership Plan, for example, so those kinds of things. And that's, again, that's the fun part where we get to take our auditor hat off, our tax hat where we're constrained by the internal revenue code or general accepted accounting principles, say, what can we do to make this work? And that's the fun part. It is. It's the fun part. And that's where you get a lot of the, you know, thank yous, you know, the client for a job well done. But I guess MJ, that just opens up all kinds of opportunities to get that diversified experience that, you know, the millennials are known to be looking for.  Just this past week, Carl and I was talking with a client about the potential route they could be taking or just things to think about in the future. And I, starting off as a professional, never thought I would get to sit with the CFOs or the CEOs or the business owners and have those conversations. There was always a thought of, oh, that's for the partners, you know, we're not allowed to go, but our firm is really good about, hey, come with us, let's have a conversation with the client and to see the client's brain start to move and go, oh, and to see the reaction of, oh, yeah, we should be thinking about that. You can actually see the lights go on. Yeah, you really can, actually. Yeah. Yeah, it's kind of a fun process to monitor. And sometimes, you know, from my experience, you'd go in and if you were young, which I used to be, you'd go in and people were kind of, what's this guy going to do, you know? But after they know you, after you've been working with them, after you've been, you know, guiding them a little bit, all of a sudden, the whole dynamics and relationship change and now they're looking at you as somebody that they can rely on. It's very rewarding. I think you would agree, MJ, that when you're newer in the profession, you don't realize how much you know and we have to keep reminding them because after a year or two, CPAs, because you have different experiences almost every day. Every day is an adventure, I like to say. Almost every day you have new experiences. We know more about, in the general accounting and business than most people were going to meet. But when you're young, you're kind of still intimidated by the old guys, right? But that's a very good point. I mean, after you've been doing it for a few years and you've seen all these best practices and worst practices, you can go into almost any company and fairly quickly make an assessment as to where the risk areas are, if a certain person knows what they're doing or maybe they don't and they can take a little advice. I mean, those assessments can be done very quickly after you've been doing this for a while. I go into companies fairly often asking for some advice and I do some virtual CFO work and I can go in and be able to identify the areas that we need to focus on and pay attention to. And they may not need audits and they may not need taxes. But they're very receptive to that and after a few years, if you can't do it already, which I'm sure you probably can do some of that now, but it just can become a very fine-tuned experience, you know, skill set. And to speak to that point, sometimes it's the CPAs or the auditors who are the continuity at the client. So people leave, people turn over and they go, I don't know what to do or how do we do this before? And I said, well, last year we did this and we're moving towards, you know, A, B, or C and you just kind of see a flood of relief, you know, coming to the client's eyes because they're like... And because the companies do go through turnover. And sometimes the accounting department or the senior people in the accounting department, there's not a lot of bench strength. There's not a lot of people there backing them up and if they're gone, the company all of a sudden goes into a panic. And it's nice to have these people that's been doing this for a year to be able to step in and say, hey, don't worry about it. You know, here's some history and we can bring the other person up the board up to speed pretty quick. There's a lot of value in building that relationship with the CPA firm and having somebody to go to when they have questions. You know, that's another part of it, is that you may have a working relationship with clients and if it's a good one, you're going to be one of the first people they call when they have a question. You know, one of the things we've been doing recently kind of along those lines is because we build a database after we've been there for a while and especially with the electronic environment we're in. We set up templates where we can automatically compute financial ratios. So in our exit meetings now, the boards or management or the C-suite, you know, the executive officers is to go through the ratios for five years or maybe more and then the summary of their accounts for five or maybe even up to ten years because we're so often in business focused on this year versus last year and budget versus actual and again, the light goes on. We look at it and many businesses don't realize how far they've come in the last five years where their revenue has doubled or tripled and they're facing new issues say because of growth or whatever and they look at that and go, oh, okay, we need to start thinking differently. So that's fun to do that. Those trends are very revealing sometimes. They can be good ones and negative ones and sometimes unless you see it, graft out, you don't realize how important they can be. But as usual, we have really moved through this entire 30 minutes and we're about ready to wrap up here. I guess we had talked real briefly in a brief response because we do have to close, but you're always looking for good people and if there are folks out there that are looking to become part of the CW team, how would they go about doing it? We have our website that would be the best place www.cwassociatecps.com and you can learn a little bit about our company, our partners, the industries that we work on or give us a call at the office. Five, three, one, ten, forty. Just like the tax return. Ten, forty. Five, three, one, ten, forty. And they can ask for MJ or they can ask for Carl. We're right in downtown Honolulu, so we're easily accessible. Super. Well, thank you again both for coming out during this very busy time of the year and hopefully we'll get another update another few months and we'll see how things are going. This is Business in Hawaii with Reg Baker. We broadcast live every Thursday from two to two thirty from the downtown studios of Think Tech Hawaii. We focus on success stories in Hawaii and those companies that help other companies become successful and that was the topic of today's show. Until next week, aloha.


So prompt that we need to be updated. Maybe by the time we say something, by the time we are arguing in the court, by the time the judges are hearing the arguments, some new law has developed. Gone are the days when we used to wait for journals to come, they used to come at monthly intervals and the judgments which were reported were two, three, four months old. Today the judgment has just been passed or what is going on in the court is reported. Maybe you can see it on the live law, bar and bench and many other apps. This is very good, but good things do come with their backs of the law. They bring lot of changes, sometimes changes give us excellent results, but there is always, if there is silver lining behind a dark cloud, there is also some darkness behind a silver cloud. The et alayandera is no exception. Friends, I am sure that most of you have watched the famous movie Three Idiots and maybe not once, but twice or thrice. Or you must have watched certain very, very good scenes on YouTube or any other medium again and again and one of the celebrated piece of slice of the movie is when Chatur addresses the audience on the annual day in the speech which he has just crammed, unmindful of the fact that the computer on which he was working was not in his private space but in a public space and somebody has made certain changes which have messed up everything. So the word chamatkar has been replaced with baladkar and when we see the movie, we keep on laughing on seeing this. But if we look at the grim realities, it is no laughing matter because it is an example of how the privacy has been breached. Here, the person, he was moved from the place where he was working on some pretext and by the time he had gone, he was not there. Certain changes have been made and he did not understood the meanings because he said that I would cram and he did cram without understanding the meaning and that created all the scene which was there. Friends, these are not the days when the enemy is visible. These are not the days when wars were fought in the battlegrounds where you could decipher from the uniform of a soldier that it belongs to the other side, the enemy. Of course, deception was very much part of the war during those times. If anybody has read the celebrated book by a Chinese author, the art of war, you would see that the running line is deception. With deception, one can win the war. We have seen World War I, World War II, how by throwing the information that enemy would be attacking from a particular side. The other side was made to send its forces to that particular side and it was caught unaware on the other borders thinking that enemy would not attack from those borders. Friends, if you look at your houses, if you look at your habits, they have changed a lot over the years and during the last three decades the change has been very fast. Thanks to the technology which has grown exponentially, even it is very difficult for us to keep track with the technology. Today you bring the best possible mobile, the latest version and you bring it home but your happiness is short lived. After some time, maybe a day or two or three you would learn that some other company has launched a new mobile with many features which your mobile is missing. So all your joy has converted into some kind of grief or sorrow. Though you have spent a handsome sum of money. These were not the things of good old times. Those who belong to old school like me must be remembering the days when if we have to purchase a TV there were not many choices. And even with those choices it was the same TV. You can go for western, you can go for texla, you can go for televista, you can go for ectv or any other brand that was in market. But at the end of the day it was the same TV with different brand mark. Four switches to control everything. Now you don't know how many features your TV has and tomorrow the things may be different. At that time our houses were open. Neighbours, friends could have easy access to our homes. There is a place known as Shanishinapur where they say that there are no doors to the houses and yet no theft takes place. They attribute that to the power of Lord Shani. Not going into that debate why the thefts do not take place. To me it seems that people are not so affluent that you can find much worth stealing. Be that as it may the fact of the matter is if you look at our houses things have changed a lot. Now the houses are not very open. There is not much open space in your house. Even people have converted their open spaces, galleries etc into closed spaces because space has become very costly and we feel that we are very secure in the four walls of our house. And that is the biggest myth. The more walls we create the more gates we create the more security gadgets we put into our houses. The more insecure we are becoming and for that thanks to technology. Friends you must be remembering the days either from your own memory or from the movies, old movies which you have watched. During the good old times even if you go if any boy goes for watching a movie it was a big characterization. When TVs came to our house it was controlled by government so everything was screened before it was shown to us. But when the technology developed computers came into our house then with the start of World Wide Web. World Wide Web means you are connected.  Because your computer is connected with somebody else's computer and somebody else's computer is connected with your computer so on and so forth. So within your house you are not alone you are connected and how these connections are established. These are established by the language which the computers understand and they only understand the language of electrical impulses which we commonly say as 0 and 1. So computer does not know any alphabet computer does not know any number system. It knows only on and off if the electrical impulse is there or the electrical impulse is not there. 0 or 1 we may call it. And by that process lot and lot of information is transmitted between various computers which are connected through World Wide Web. And this World Wide Web is the biggest horror which we are witnessing. See as long as the going is good people are honest they don't misuse the technology technology is a very good friend. But the movement the technology comes in the hand of a predator a stalker or anybody who intends to misuse it it becomes the biggest enemy and we are caught unaware. Everybody wishes to be hero in the movie many aspire many go to Mumbai the film city to try their luck many succeed many fail but the dreams never die. We also want to see ourselves on the screen and but now sometimes people see that to their horror. That they receive some call from some unknown person. Call may be converted into a video call. Your video is recorded and tomorrow you see that the receiver is in some video upon video the protagonist in that video and that sends the shiva down the spine and then one is asked to pay for the deletion of that video. Fact of the electronic record is that it never gets deleted. It leaves it traces. Deletion is a very very long and tedious process you have to overwrite everything. Whatever sometimes you delete is only the index file that is deleted but the real content is never deleted. The trace is so big, so lasting, so permanent in this non-permanent world. Which is a very good thing. Records can be preserved for long and long and long times but which has its own bag of problems. So if you want that something should phase out from the memory of people it would not. Whatever has been created would stay there. But the horror does not just stop here. The horror is carried forward. There was a very famous mathematician who said of British origin he said that nowadays data is the new oil. We now understand the value of oil. How certain countries which could not feed themselves once upon a time when they discovered oil their economies, their finances, their riches have changed and changed to achieve the heights which we cannot even dream of Arab countries, Dubai these are some of the examples to be cited. So oil was just perhaps much more worth than gold. Today the oil is being replaced with data. You must have seen at various exhibitions data being sold in CDs or pen drive or online like the manufacturers which you are looking for the places which you are looking for the sellers which you are looking for those are available and when you open it you find a flood of information because we are living in the information age where information is power information is money and we all know that data is being sold and sometimes data is necessary also it's not that data is part of the culprit most of the time data is our very good friend when we present a case before the court it depends on the kind of research we have carried with the help of the application or using which is able to churn out the latest judgments on a particular subject or a particular aspect which is relevant to us. So I know the days when I started my practice we used to spend hours and hours in library searching for cases and maybe to get one good case you have to open 20, 30, 50 books and maybe after searching 20, 30, 50 books you may not be able to get the kind of the judgment which you are looking for. So it was really burning the midnight oil but now we see paperless offices with the press of a small button you can have access to thousand and thousand of cases which are relevant to you and then you keep on defining your search and finding the cases which are really relevant to your case. So search has become very easy the information at your control is much more than you could have got that in the good old times when you had to depend upon the books and libraries and we know that library used to close after certain time whether it was in port or whether it was in chambers or whether it was the public library but now those libraries are no longer they are just breathing their last things have changed and now the enemy which was outside has come inside us say if you have gone to Flipkart or Amazon and search for certain things after some time you start getting suggestions of the products which you have searched for and if you have turned your location on in your mobile when you go to places you will start getting the rather I say that you would be trolled to tell you the things the kind of eateries which are around the kind of shops which sells the goods for which you have searched for they are guiding you that these are the and this is unsolicited you have not asked for it you just search for something and they are trolling you so what was your private space you want yourself to be left alone you want yourself to be led to yourself but these things are approaching you they are haunting you they are coming in your way and now we have Alexa we have many things today if you talk about something maybe your mobile or your electronic devices would keep on showing you those articles about which you have talked about you are sitting together with your family and you are discussing a particular ice cream or ice cream as such and you are shown different messages they are telling you that this particular ice cream is available at this door near you all those kind of things and you feel that this is too much maybe tomorrow if you dream something your mobile or your Alexa device or your computer may start showing the things about which you have had dreams this is too much and the fact of the matter is that you are not sure of the efficacy of the institution or the person who is handling this data that is where all the problem lies data is being created it is being stored is one side of the problem but who is managing your data who is having access to it who is controlling it and how he can profile you with the help of the data which has been collected and maybe showing you the side of yourself which you do not know is a very scary picture as long as it is just like it is lying locked no problem but when it comes out it creates a host of problems your private life becomes public the side which you do not want to see anybody perhaps your side which you are not even personally aware of to that extent that becomes visible to public at large and that too maybe in an undefined way but maybe in some way in which it has been given a particular kind of color particular kind of thing particular kind of character which kills your personality which harms your personality which attacks your image which slanders your character and the enemies are known the problem with today's technology is that at the most you may be able to reach the machine but you may not be able to reach the person and we know the fate of the defamation suits easier said than done you have to bring the witnesses who would testify to the court that your reputation in the estimation has fallen to bring a witness on your own who would testify that they don't give you the reputation which they used to give you earlier and how many people can afford to go to the courts to bring about these suits and the damage is done and damage is being continually done I remember one story there was a person who uttered certain words to defame a person so the matter went to court and the person was found to be guilty he said that I have apologized and therefore I should be just let off maybe with a warning or something of this sort court said okay what you do what you have uttered to defame the other party on a piece of paper so he complied the court said that now what you do you tear this paper into smaller shreds shreds of paper whatever smallest you can do so he complied with that also now court said now you go to some place and blow them away he complied with it and came back to the court now court said that now you go to that place again and bring those shreds of paper to court he could not find even one tenth of those papers so once the damage is done it is very difficult to contain this damage the previously in the good old times when our houses were open for inspection by neighbors friends relatives the privacy was not a big issue because we had only the enemies which were known if somebody has intruded into my privacy it could be my neighbor, my friend, my relative or maybe one of my family members so the task was not difficult and just because of the fear that a person who has intruded into somebody's privacy could be exposed people used to refrain from intrusion into the privacy but now we have invited the enemies within our home thanks to world wide web people are connected to us people unknown to us we are members of many social sites whatsapp, facebook, twitter, instagram we post our private photographs the friends on facebook may not be the real person it may be just a name it may be just an identity created for the purpose of being your friend on the facebook may not have a real entity may not have a real existence many cases have come boys chasing girl but the girl turns out to be boy or vice versa person is talking to somebody who is none other than his or her own spouse somebody is trolling somebody is talking and the horror is very big and as long as the going is good its alright but when the things go out of hand when the data is breached when the person whom you are trusting and you have shared your intimate photographs your videos your personal information so enemies there to bounce upon it is in this context that writer privacy which started with a very humble beginning in many cases was considered to be in Putta Swami's judgment by the constitutional bench as to be the integral right to the integral part of the right to life it even set aside the judgment where the right was not so recognized in MP Sharma's case and set back the clock to the good old days that it was a right to life and of course as the days are passing by the right to life right to privacy is becoming an integral part of our life because technology has so much intruded into our lives that now we are the final line and this is becoming very clear that yes this was my private space I have kept it guarded with doors, logs, walls, windows but with the electronic revolution I have brought in the enemies I have brought the spies who can sneak into and crouch upon my private space and are always threatening to make it public not only this we share our data with many we go to a doctor doctor prescribes certain diagnostic tests we go to a laboratory give our samples maybe it is blood maybe it is some other excretion from the body we go to certain places they test our identity maybe with an eye scan maybe with some other thing which is particular to me maybe with your fingerprints any feature which is unique to us and we leave those traces there so our medical records they are maintained online doctors give consultation online doctors send prescription online we purchase medicines online from pizza to houses we purchase online and these all are creating a very big thing called data and history very small period of history though history is written over centuries but here the history has been written indicates that lot of data breaches have taken place and not only in our country where the technology development is not to the extent to which it has developed in other countries though we are also second to none but in those very very developed countries data breaches have taken place be it the case of in 2012 LinkedIn data breach in which 30 million users data was compromised and it was accessible to a Russian hacker there was lot of unrest Facebook scandal where more than 500 million people's data was breached in 2018 MySpace in 2013 compromised the data of 160 million people and so on and so forth though as the technology is growing we always know that the culprit the person who are on the wrong side of law they are technologically much more advanced they are able to hack somebody's identity somebody's email somebody's Facebook and do some mischief because it's very difficult to protect but it is very easy to breach you find some small space and you start hitting on it that's why we have ethical hackers also who do the same things as the but for ethical purposes to check whether the system is hacking proof or not so they try all the tools that are available to them to check if the system is suspect to breach or not but again it's easier said than done because for ethical people to work is much more difficult than for people with no ethics they can attack, they can hit they can keep on trying and they may find some way out we know the if we hear the story of the war of Troy in which they could not breach the castle but ultimately they left leaving a wooden horse in which many army men were concealed and that's why it is said that there is beware of the people bringing gifts because gifts may be sometimes something else in guys so the people of Troy celebrating that they could not let the anime in brought that Trojan horse inside and then what had happened is written in the history and that's why we have a virus by the name of Trojan horse also so as long as the anime is outside you are secure but when you bring the anime in it is like sleeping with the anime therefore in this regime when the courts have been so conscious to sentinel your right of privacy that we take cognizance of the changed times and we have a regime of data protection because when data is becoming the present age in which we are living the tangible properties losing its value and these are the intangible properties which are gaining their ground uber, ola, these are the examples of they don't have any taxes they don't have any offices they are just working on an app it's all intangible but they are working on the technology and perhaps the services we deliver is much more better than the services which were earlier existing Oyo rooms, the hall, the hotel chains they have brought under one channel, under one umbrella IPS during last 3-4 decades they have really become a property on which we have more of the disputes rather than dispute over who owns a particular house so the entire landscape of litigation has changed because now the whole world is a data driven economy nobody wants to conquer new lands everybody wants data, somebody can this perhaps the traditional way of fighting wars would become totally redundant the armies, the air force the navy may exist only namesake because the fight is for data with data they can control they can paralyze the entire system so they can sound the death knell of the enemy control of the data with artificial intelligence there is perhaps there would be no need to send your spies in physical way to other countries you can run with a person sitting at a remote place with the help of a computer he may be able to see many things which perhaps a spy in physical presence may not be able to see how a particular country moves on what things it is dependent where are the resources located where are the things being shifted how some computer program can be hacked or changed to do some damage those would be the things of they are the things of present and they may manifest themselves as things of future so in this context the data becomes very very relevant and when the data becomes relevant I am reminded of a phrase used in copyright law that what is worth stealing is worth protecting so when data can be put to use and can be subject to abuse so there need to be a regime need to be a well defined law where this data can be protected so that it is used and processed for right purposes but much more than that it is being controlled and protected from abuse and in this context on 11th of January 2019 a bill on data protection was proposed by the government it was tabled in the parliament and it was left for public debate lot of debate started people gave their views things poured in from many sources and in the course of time it was discovered there was a commission to look after the data protection law it also suggested draft changes there was a joint parliament committee which looked into this and this JPC made suggested more than 80 changes well more new recommendations you see when one law is proposed to come it is an answer to a problem which is confronting the society so at the government level at the higher level at the level of parliament you have to take everybody along to the demands of various stakeholders and these demands are competing demands so it is not easy to work in that area that is why when the laws are enacted they have their own guided process through which they have to pass experts are invited to comment on the various aspects of law public research is invited all stakeholders and it is presumed that anybody who is affected by it may be a person who is made comfortable by a particular law may not come and say something give a pat on the back yes you have enacted a very good law but everyone who is impacted in some small way and we are a democracy people participate in many ways we do not participate in the parliamentary process just by casting our franchise but we participate in many many other ways like when we give our comments when we send our response to the laws which are proposed to be enacted to govern us this is what participatory democracy means and I am happy that our country is on very strong footing on that so much was found to be affecting certain people their rights so many changes were proposed that after three years of churning out process it was put into motion in the month of 2019 in December 2019 on 11th of December but in the month of August 2022 that is a month back government the Indian government the central government decided to call it a day and to withdraw the bill stating that it would come out with a comprehensive legislation on that because the changes which were suggested the safeguards which were suggested the recommendations which were made the challenges which were put forth were so many that it was not possible to correct the script but to rewrite the script and we are at that stage now that today till date we don't have any data protection law many other countries have their well placed data protection law I don't say that data protection law is the panacea for all the ills laws however good they are they are still to be tested when they are put into real practice and that time still despite having very good data protection laws certain countries have faced certain instances where the laws were complied more in breach than in compliance than in honour but that is what what is the test which every law faces we can have a 60 by 65 certificate from anybody who is putting any evidence which is electronic but we cannot say that everybody would give a truthful 65 B certificate that is for our system to check but certainly it is high time that we have a well defined and comprehensive and we have full faith that when so much churning process has been done and the churning has been very good because so many amendments proposed so many recommendations made so many concerns flagged the it shows how vibrant our parliamentary system is how deep foundation the democracy has taken place but it is right time that we have the data protection law without much wastage of time so when the new bill is placed before us for public scrutiny I hope that our legal eagles and everybody the legal eagle beat a member of public who feels concerned beat the persons who are responsible for giving impetus to rule of law whether they are in the bar in bench in many other institution which deal with law that they give it a thoughtful move forward with their critical opinions because this critical opinion is the basic third of the society which keeps the democracy alive and we wish that it soon sees the light of the day and we have a regime which is all pervasive for data protection so that the small start-ups who may have to analyze the data may have to export the data are able to do that in anonymous way so that data gives the best possible results and privacy of no individual is affected the economy of country is not put on hold just because we go for a data protection regime which is too closed does not serve the purpose rather does the adverse of it so we are keeping our fingers crossed for the comprehensive bill awaiting for it and hope that it would protect our privacy and we all contribute to bring out the best possible legislation because we have experience of many other countries we have our own experiences of data pages which we can use that experience as our starting point and perhaps we have been able to get a very good constitution taking cues from various other constitution of the world it has stood the test of times and we I wish that we all contribute to enactment of a data protection law when the bill is tabled so that we can take our nation forward with that I so I would be it would be at the cost of repetition but I am very happy that Chartert Larch Ambus has given me this opportunity to share some of my views on this very very critical subject and I wish that they keep on having such endeavors in future for the benefit of all and I am very thankful to all the participants Sunday late evening is very very precious time because you have to rush to your work tomorrow so you have to prepare for that also there are competing demands of families so thank you very much for joining this this program and I am really indebted to you thank you very much Mr. Vikas Chartert it's really a pleasure to be here Thank you Mr. Mohan Sharma as they say that the whiff of the air tells that what type of knowledge could be shared and that may not be a breach of data privacy but at the same time when your name was recommended then it was said with the as I say it was hammered strongly that you will get the insights which are deep rooted and a deep dive and actually you have taken us to work taking us connected with the three idiots and so on and on the legal journey of data privacy is such that you can speak ours and ours in fact any point of law can be taken as such now like what are the remedies according to you since you have that judicial experience also in case you feel that there is a data privacy what will be the remedial jurisdiction which quote where it is bleached or where the person is residing it will be done how is that going on for a common man to understand Sir this is a very very big field in the way that now the cyberspace the biggest problem is cyberspace is jurisdiction the cyberspace virtually has no jurisdiction so that is the biggest threat if the data breach has happened somewhere where you cannot reach so that is one of the biggest issue but maybe that is an issue which is all pervasive it is affecting all the jurisdiction where electronic evidence comes into question but it should be such that it should be able to protect the privacy of a person because that is what we cherish privacy of a person when it comes into public domain it does a lot of damage to his state of mind is very existence itself so there have been many aspects where people have committed suicide because their private life was shared on a public platform Chatur's example is anybody's guess how much he suffered because of what was done to his speech so first thing is that when an individual is protected everybody on the whole is protected second thing is that wherever the authorities are created whether private or public there should be appropriate control over these authorities rather than filling certain forms and it's not just to have PUC certificate we know that PUC certificate has lost its relevance it should be pollution actually under control so maybe we may inspect the vehicle randomly and find out if it is in fact causing the pollution or not there may be cases when you have got the PUC certificate your PUC certificate only shows that at this particular point of time your vehicle is not polluting like your BP it is at a particular point of time but over a long time it may have different values so in that way the control of data in the possession of various authorities maybe hospitals maybe government offices should be such that whenever data is analyzed the government the authorities are not analyzing a particular individual so if it is being analyzed it is analyzed in anonymous fashion so if that anonymity is given to data I don't think it would be able to do any damage only when data is stacked to a particular person it has the much more potential for damage so if that is done the research in medical the growth of economy that would be ensured we all need demographic trends we all need what particular new diseases are coming how much population is affected by it where the relief is much more required which are the areas which are prone to flood all those things are required for nations growth so if the data is made anonymous if the proposed bill works in that direction I think it would solve most of the problems so that is a small suggestion from my side maybe as the things may develop more things may come up what are the challenges and what are the benefits you feel from the role of artificial intelligence is today's era so it is slightly off the track of the topic sir as we have seen the past is an indicator that it is not the technology which is good or bad it is the person who is using the technology which makes all the difference so artificial intelligence see you can control your home you can do various household works nations can defend themselves with the help of the artificial intelligence a person on individual level you need not go to your office you can have a track of how many employees are really working how many employees have really come how many are on the job you can track anything and everything with that as long as it is used a sword soul is used as a means of defense it is very good but the moment it is used as a means of offense then it comes on the other side of the wrong side of the fence so that is the difference per se technologies neither good nor bad it depends on our discretion our election how we use that technology that is going to make all the difference so we have to control ourselves we have to manage ourselves nobody else would come to manage us this technology human mind is still superior these technologies have been created by human mind and human mind would keep on growing and it is the human mind which can use the technology to the best of advantage so the debate may keep on going whether the technology is good or bad but I think most of it depends on who is the person who is using it and how he has been using it so thank you Mr. Manmohan Sharma it was a pleasure we can wrap it off by saying what you have concluded that technology is a good servant but a bad master so we have to continue to use that and that is the way to sum up for the today's session do stay connected with us thank you everyone and those who have not subscribed to this