Welcome to Dear to Dream. This is Debbie Daschinger, and I have some guests who are back today for another interview because today's show features Shakina Ma and Sananda G, known as Twin Ray to talk about our 5D ascension and the path towards enlightenment. I'm Debbie Daschinger, and the show has been nominated for two People's Choice Podcast Awards, a Webby Award. Currently listed in Welp Magazine is one of the top 20 best podcasts to listen to this year. It is a top self-improvement podcast in Apple Podcasts and recently won the Coalition of Visionary Resources Award for Best Radio and Podcast Show. This show is sponsored by Dr. Dane Heer and Access Consciousness. They do beautiful energy work out into the world. And if you'd like to become a facilitator or take one of their classes, go to drdaneheer.com or accessconsciousness.com. I'm Debbie Daschinger, I'm a visibility media expert. I am a book writing coach and I show you how to finally complete that book and make it a page-turner. I also have a company that takes your book to a guaranteed international bestselling status and I do all the work for the author. And finally, I show you how to be interviewed on radio and podcasts and get massive results. If it is your time as a spiritual messenger, and of course it is, that is why we came back. If it is your time to get your message, your being out there, then I've got a free gift for you. It's templates, it's videos that show you how to do these things. Go to debbiedaschinger.com slash gift. It's D-E-B-B-I-D-A-C-H-I-N-G-E-R.com slash gift. My guests today, back once again, Shaquena Mon, Sananda G, who are called Twin Ray, unified in a divine love marriage. They share compassionate hearts, a clear vision and deep knowledge of the unchanging truth. Twin Ray represents the unifying creation of all existence. Twin Ray's teachings draw on 5,000 unbroken years of deep ancient roots while remaining urgently relevant today. From their golden age sanctuary, among the mountains of southern Oregon, Twin Ray share practices and teachings to transcend the suffering of worldly limitations so you awaken and live your divine truth. The reunion Shaquena Ma and Sananda G had individually established their own global followings and extrasensory spiritual gifts. Then they reunited in this lifetime at the Great Pyramid in Egypt. As they met, they remembered they were already married and had walked hand in hand in service before. Within days of the reunion, they recited ancient marriage vows in the King's Chamber of the Great Pyramid and commenced their shared journey. Shaquena Ma comes from a long family bloodline of clairvoyance, oracles, and the spiritually gifted. Shaquena Ma comes from a long family bloodline of gifted folks. And Sananda G was born spiritually awake and at the age of 10, he had a mystical encounter that prompted a four-year initiation to master energy healing, clairvoyance, and parapsychology. To learn more, go to twinray.com and they will both be speaking and also opening the Los Angeles Conscious Life Expo. Coming up, you must attend. If you haven't, you must, you must. It's going to be February 10th through the 13th. I never miss it once, truthfully, when I was speaking on stage, but otherwise I think in over a decade and more, I've never missed it. I have in the show notes a way for you to get tickets. There is a link, so please go there and register for the LA Conscious Life Expo. Enjoy them today and then you can get to see them live very soon. And I welcome to the show Shaquena Ma and Sananda G. It is so great to have you back on the program. Thank you. Thank you, beloved Debbie. Yes. It's been a minute and yet it's been nothing. It's been a minute since, yet no time has passed. And yet you've created so much from when we last spoke and before we even started this, you were telling me about Haven Ashland and you can go to havenashland.com, your new store, your brilliant store, this gorgeous place where you are and that is not a backdrop they have, that is real where they live, but there is also a place where they invite people to come work with them and you have, do you have homes there that people can buy and live in? We have about 140 acres thus far. The vision is to expand into a few thousand acres and start developing home sites to have sustainable living with biological architecture that's in residence with the earth and then help whoever lives or stays in these homes to actually heal. So they're like self-rejuvenating chambers essentially. So we are designing, we've designed them. We have the plans already. We have the master plans right now. Of course you do. You guys are amazing. You get more accomplished like in a year than most humans in a lifetime. It's very impressive. So that is a strong mission, all of this.  Is that what drives you? Is humanity what drives you? Is it the soul calling that drives you? What drives us? That's an interesting question. The cliche would be love and it would be the most honest truth. But really it's not even a drive. It's just our breath. It's just what we know and it's why we're here. This is the most amazing time on the planet right now. We're going through this incredible ascension cycle and humanity is just... Yeah, humanity is awakening and we're here to support this. Our vision is really to manifest and build, physically build the golden age for the ones that feel within their hearts, the calling to return to that time of living in peace and living in purity and living in great connection to not only the cosmic cycles and the earthly cycles, but to fully liberate one's own self. And this is a world that has forgotten how to live. Truly. What do you mean by that? Forgotten how to live in the ways that sanctify this body, this temple. Forgotten how to live in the ways that recognize the sacred cycles and the sacred universe and thus making your life sacred. That's the only way to truly live in honor of the life you've been given. So that could look like living a life of ceremony, for example. Like when you really acknowledge the miracle, the profound miracle that everyone has been given to be incarnated right here right now. And when you acknowledge that, you don't take anything for granted.  You acknowledge all things as an interconnected whole. And many have forgotten that. Many have forgotten the sacredness of life. I've forgotten the very miracle to breathe, to be here. Many are looking for, you know, attracting wealth and abundance and success and all this, but they forget the very success of just breathing, you know, just to have your heart beating. Like that's what you should be grateful for. So that's what we mean by forgot how to live, forgot the significance, the real purpose and meaning. And there's many that haven't forgot. There's many that are joining us now. And there's many on the awakening path and the ascension path that are remembering and igniting the very flame of their divinity. And that's why we're here to support all of that. Yes, and you introduced us so beautifully. Thank you for that, Debbie. One of the main things that was probably the most pertinent is that this body, this vessel went through a death, a full, complete death for six days and six nights. And that original soul transitioned and I came in. And thus there is no, I heard the calling of the children. And that's why I'm here. So there is no drive other than this is as it must be. She got the shortcut. She got to drop into a body instead of have to grow the body. That is true. That's incredible. And may I ask you when you say that, do you mean walk in or do you mean, I do understand what you mean. But I guess the question is what is the being? What is the energy or the collective that chose to come in and take over the body? I would love my answer in dance. You know, this could be beautiful teachings of sort of the science of the subtle bodies, your bio energetic field, the lower bodies and the higher bodies. You have these sheets in Eastern culture it's called the coaches, but they're like sheets of information. And the soul has a matrix of the causal body or the Akashic body holds all the records essentially. So we can look at the soul as like a memory, a hard drive of all the memory of every incarnation of our experience you've ever had. And that is hosting the physical body. So the physical body is hosted by that soul's intelligence. And then ultimately the journey of the soul is returned back to spirits. And spirit is sort of the light of the soul all the light of the soul. The very life of the soul is borrowed from spirit. Spirit in this case is pure consciousness, the divine. And so when one incarnates, they obviously grow, they aspects of the soul come in. So the first breath that you take the astrological alignment with all the planets the exact angulation of those planets, these celestial bodies, these are like broadcast signals of memories of different lifetimes when you've walked the plane and those planets have overlooked your life, so to speak. So they're held within the Akashic and the astral body of your energy field. So when a soul leaves, all that data leaves with them. And so in Shakina Mars case, the soul that's inhabited and hosted the body from birth left. And so the memories and the nuances, the way that she walked, the way that she talked, the what she wore, you know, those subtle aspects that sort of make the personality, the unique expression of the soul being the personality that left and a new field of information, a field of energy, a presence known as Shakina or Shakina, depending upon what dialect is expressing that sacred word had incarnated in. And so this is a big conversation and I had the pleasure to speak to her earth mother, which is quite interesting because when she came through, she's one of the first things that she said to her earth mother is now I'm your mother, spiritually speaking, of course. And that was a bit of a trip for her earth mother to sort of grok and understand what she's actually implying.  And you know, her experience was that she had rosary in hand and was in the corner of the actual hospital and her daughter that was on life support and all of her organs have failed and, you know, she was had a very rare case of meningitis and that's spread out through the body. And so she was told that, you know, she's got 20 minutes to live and then they put her on life support and she was gone.  And then she had this moments after six days and six nights, it was very early in the AM, she recalled and shared with me that she saw this being, this being of light that was wearing this very long flowing gown of white light and just descended into the room. He had this very stern look, like very focused eyes and very direct and he just came down and looked over the body and he put his hand out and just sent this beam of light straight from his hand down straight into the body that laid on the, on the bed and she was lack of a better term, dumbfounded, like she just, what is this? She couldn't explain it. She had no reference points of how to assimilate that experience. And so she was just, you know, deeply contemplating was she dreaming this? Did you make this up? Did she just going through the whole thought process of what just actually happened? And moments later, the body started being revived and Shakina Ma entered the physical body and came through so that that beam of light that came from a masculine form actually was calling in the feminine form to come through. And after that process, you know, a few moments later the body started regaining awareness and started actually instantly healing. And she was known as the miracle one, the miracle one because there was no, the hospital and the doctors and the nurses were like, you know, she's not gonna make it and, you know, make sure everything's in order and she was resurrected and instantly healed her whole, all of her organs instantly healed her whole body instantly healed like nothing actually happens. It was profound. They had never experienced something like that ever in their entire medical career. And so from that experience, what happened afterwards, and this was on 10, 10, 10 as well, at age, you know, that's at age 33. So it's like the master number at this powerful portal of time, which was a very significant alignment cosmically as well. And so after that occurred, what her earth mother shared with me was that it was so profound to have that a miracle happen and have a second chance, have a child back, but she noticed that she was completely different the way that she talked, the way that she animated, the way that she walked, the way that she expressed herself and but she didn't care. She got her miracle, that was enough. She didn't care what had really happened. Later on, she's come to sort of understand more intimately and as much as she can, but it was very profound for her to have that experience and it changed her entire belief of God. It changed her entire belief of spirituality and it changed everything. There was no going back from what she experienced and what she then had encountered. And so that's, I hope I did justice to the story and in a brief manner, but that's what happens for Shakina Ma, so. Amazing. Thank you, thank you, thank you for sharing that. We didn't go into that during our first interview at all. It was made reference, but understanding that is profound and reading your bio is already goosebumps.   And Shakina Ma, if I can ask you, and then we're gonna get on to another subject, I'm so fascinated by this. When you were, I don't even know what the word is, but this being with his hand was able to impel your being through light into the body that you now occupy. Did you have awareness of this is strange? This isn't my body, was it strange at all or was it an immediate marriage? No, no, not at all. How do I explain that I was overlighting and overseeing the process from her birth and before her born, pair this entire experience. So no, one must be prepared for a very, very, very long time in order to come in in this particular way and have this type of awareness consciousness and this role in the world. Beautiful, absolutely beautiful. Wow, thank you. You both have called this the beginning of the year the mystic and that it's a radiant start of the year. Can you explain what do you mean by year of the mystic? Why is it radiant? Why is it radiant? Well, it's always radiance, you know? Consciousness is radiance, it's always radiant. However, this specific numeric of this year being seven, if we look at the tarot, we can see that the seven represents the chariots. So it's also the chariot is the ascension vehicle and the chariots is also the vehicle of the mystical experience. And so the inner mystic, seven is the mysteries. So seven is the higher mysteries. Anything that is esoteric or hidden. Yeah, and esoteric doesn't always allude to more of this spiritual or new age perception. Like esoteric also means the hidden blueprint. So if we look at a tree, for example, what we don't see is the rings and the bands within the trunk that show the age of the tree. That would be the sort of esoteric aspect of the trunk. And then we don't see the roots that grow down into the earth and how those roots connected to every other tree and how those trees are connected into a synarchy or connection. So that's sort of the esoteric blueprint behind the model. So that's what we mean by the hidden. This is what is needing to come up. And so a lot of those ancient secrets, the ancient sacred teachings, the ancient sciences, the ancient ways, there'll be more of this coming up to the surface in this year specifically. It's very auspicious this year. And the mystic is also about the mystery, the great mystery. What is the mystery of life? Like, who am I really? What is all of this, this universe? What is it really? Who is God, for example? Like the learning of who one truly is, learning that love is at the seat of all experience. It is the very awareness of all consciousness. That's the great mystery to be realized. And you can't just learn this intellectually. You have to have a direct experience. And this is also the year that the great mythos is going to be celebrated. This is also the year that the great mythos is going to come to light in a different way. And more and more people are going to start recognizing that they are indeed part of this grand story and the grand tapestry and want to get involved and know how they can serve a life greater than the small self. Indeed, million dollar question, huge. And I think many people feel that calling. We have, you have without a doubt. You have risen to that calling. And with Ascension, can you talk about some of the symptoms that people may experience physically, emotionally, ethically, any of the symptoms that are taking place that people may not be connecting that this is actually a part of Ascension? Let's talk about Ascension for just one moment. There's this word that's out there. It's called the Ascension. What does that really mean? How does one be able to grasp what this is representing and what this is referring to? So let's just speak about it in terms of frequency. Right. As, and we're going to get, I'm sure, more into the cycles of time and why the frequency is rising as it is. But just to simplify it, let's say that the frequency is rising on the planet. The Ascension is part of rising that frequency within you. That means that you are taking light and bringing it through you. And if there are places inside of you that are dense that have yet to be uncovered or discovered that have not yet been loved into awakening, those energies are going to feel stagnant. So when a high frequency or a high pitch to make it even more simple comes through into something that has density, you're going to feel pain or you're going to hear ringing in your ears or you're going to experience what would be called Ascension symptoms. But really all that it means is that your lower centres must now rise to meet where the earth is headed. And that's what's happening right now. Just to simplify that. Yeah. And if we look at it solely biological, we could say, yes, there's the common symptoms as what's this ringing in my ear sort of thing. But that also connects into your kidneys. So for example, the kidneys aren't training or if the kidneys and adrenals aren't actually working in synergy together, when high frequency comes in, the battery that is like the life force that the kidneys hold and then they actually connect into the battery of the actual intestinal tract and the intestinal system. If the frequency is lifting, then you can actually feel those symptoms of detox like rapid healing crisis that can come up or if you're living a life where you're really holding onto certain securities like you need this to be a certain way. And it's old guard. It's from the old frequency. It's in an old model. Then you can probably bet that that's gonna crumble. And so that's also an essential symptom when your entire life is just crumbling around you and you're like, what is going on? I have no idea. I don't know how I'm going to make this work anymore.  So these ascension symptoms are also like marker points just to look inside yourself. Where are you sourcing your power? Is it from external securities? Is it from external validation? Is it from external relationships? Or is it from something more internal, more interconnected within you? And so a lot of the symptoms are not only physical, they're also emotional, mental, causal, spiritual. Absolutely. So you can have like snapbacks where you just remember past lives. You just all of a sudden you're living a trauma and there's some type of trauma that's coming up. You may not consciously and logically know but this is your body does or your codex within your DNA that's folded of the records of time inside you is just unlocking. And then you're going through this entire episode of something that happened in another incarnation. And that can also be a positive thing. You can actually start attaining the memories and the gifts of your spiritual pathways that your lifestreams that you've lived in other lifetimes as well. So ascension symptoms could also be, wow, I'm finally here. Like I'm getting my body and my template up-leveled and activated and ready to be of service. So there can be a deep calling for you to basically go to different locations around the planet, for example, or join certain communities or learn certain wisdom teachings. So there's many different things that can be associated with a symptom. But first one must purify. One must really go through the purification process in order to be able to hold and withstand the frequency fields and the plastic waves that are going to be coming into the planet stronger and stronger and have already been coming in, certainly since 2017. How long do you anticipate this will continue to occur? Well, there's gonna be a big shift in 2024. Yeah, 2017 was sort of the onset and we're only really experiencing the bow shock waves. And what we mean by this to give a little bit of context of what we're speaking about is that we're in cycles. You can witness the cycles of the seasons. We have biological cycles that happen in 24 hours within our body. And we're also in a cosmic cycle. We're in a 12,000 year cycle where we're entering into the Aquarian Age, which hasn't happened for 26,000 years. So we're in another 26,000 years. And the position of our galaxy is within a over a 200 million year cycle as well. So we're in these massive cycles of time. And that's what the cosmos is. Within cycles, within cycles, let's say. What is the universe?  That's what it is. That's what all the stars are. That's it. It's a big massive cosmic clock. And we are at the precipice of an ascension cycle where we are closer to a cosmic sheath. And a sheath is basically like these waves of coherently charged and structured plasmic envelopes. And as our solar system is traveling through these envelopes, we are then lit up. So we are receiving this massive cosmic radiation. And that goes through our crystalline core of our Earth. And then it converts into gamma wave particles. And then it also creates low standing sound waves. I'll say that again slowly. Low standing sound waves. They are sound waves. And they're low standing to the Earth grids. So this is what we call historically lay lines or song lines, holds the songs of the ancestors, the stars, holds the songs of the universe, holds the songs of the Earth. So we have a new grid as of 2017. We've entered into this galactic sheet of this cosmic radiation. And that switched it on. But we're only receiving what we call the bow shock waves. And what the imagery behind that, that word is, is that when there's a cruise liner, it's floating or cruising through the waters, there's waves in front of the cruise liner. It's the momentum of that gravitational force. We're just receiving those. We're receiving that. So the massive cruise liner hasn't even docked in yet. But when it docks in is at the end of 2024. That's when there's a massive shift. What that's going to do. And the reason why this is so significant and we've been talking about this for like ever since 2017, in fact. And we've been walking the grids for decades, like literally being called to go to many, many places in the world over 60 different countries that travel to sacred locations to repair the grids. A lot of the work that we've been doing is to prepare for this time now. Because if you can understand the energetic matrix, the energetic container, the frequency field, that is the energetic construct that creates the form. So all form, all physical solidity of form is just frequency. So it's held within a frequency field. And so that frequency field, just as we have an aura, so does the earth, that is going through a transfiguration. And so is our sun. And so was our solar system. Every different planet within our solar system is going through this. So as our galaxy, it's all going through this. And this happens at a powerful time of when a species is ascending into another octave of existence, another density. It becomes another root race, so to speak. Yeah, so this is a massive shift of guards. What Plasmic Energy does as it converts into gamma wave particles and that cosmic radiation, starts switching on the DNA. So the... And creating mutations to the DNA. Yeah, so it can correct like free radicals, for example. Like when there's free radicals and rogue cells within the body, it can actually self-correct and self-heal that. And also it can switch on epigenome sequences. So the epigenomes, they can actually switch on genetic information. So it can actually unlock certain records within a DNA construct as well. So we're going through an evolutionary cycle. The last time this happened was 12,000 years ago. And every single 12,000 years, we have a chance. Last time it happened, there's a great flood and Atlanta sunk. They didn't make the right decision. The head wasn't balanced with the heart and we know what happens with that when that occurs. And so we're coming to another chance now. It's about getting as many people aware of this sacred science, these great prophecies that many different cultures have been speaking about and leaving records about. This is the time that you all showed up for. This is a time where you said, yes. And so this is the most powerful time. And this is the year. This is the year to understand the great mysteries of heaven and the heaven within. And that is precisely, I love the mythos and the story of the mythos that I was referring to. And that is why this is the year of the mystery. Yes, the earth needs a new story and this is the story of our time. And where he has to bring it. That's incredible. I've heard things like trouble sleeping, hair loss, stomach issues, heart. I've heard that a lot of people were going to the hospital and the doctors were, there is nothing wrong with you. The etheric and the etheric template though, there might be. And so really it depends on, because what happens is, again, as these bowel shock waves have been coming through, remember one's field is grander than the physical form, than the physical form. It is reverberating and making the connections with one field depending how vast their field is. And- But there's a lot of detox symptoms that come up. Well, there is of course, because before anything can happen to your physical body, it has to first permeate through the levels and the layers. And your physical body is the measure of what is transpiring in seen and unseen ways. All I can say is I am so excited hearing you talk about DNA repair, rogue cells, epigenomes being turned on, past lives, remembrance, activation of gifts. I'm just sitting here like, I will have some of that, please. I will have some of that, please. Just that is so exciting, so beautiful that over these next two years, we'll be completing something that's been going on for a while. And then I imagine we'll step into yet another phase after 2024. Respectfully, we won't be completing any of that. We really are going to be beginning it. That's interesting. It reminds me, I haven't shared this with my audience, but I a month ago had hip replacement surgery, total hip replacement, and people would write to me, not everybody, many people get it, but just a few people would say, are you fully healed? Are you out of pain? And although I understand that's probably possible to create, the truth is that surgery was just the beginning. Then the journey begins for me to come back to complete whole health with this new bionic piece that I now have inside of me. And so one step at a time, one day at a time, it's better and I'm stronger and I can do more. And it's a journey, it's a journey. So I understand. So 2024, just the beginning, okay. In some ways, thank you for sharing that and that's a beautiful metaphor. And in some ways, 2024 is going to be the potential. It holds in its seed a great potential for humanity. This is also a time when there is a, most a new, for the only way I can explain it in a way that's gonna make sense as much as possible is let's say there is a new piece of the world soul that's coming in. This is going to then allow people right now who are not yet awakening, who are not even yet interested in awakening, who are people's spouses, husbands, wives, family members who are still very much sleeping in some ways. That is going to allow them, if their soul has attained to a certain level, that's going to allow that frequency match to start to enter into their field, allowing them to start to awaken and to open up more and more. This is the only way to do it. It must come from the heart. Can you speak to the people who are very gifted and spiritually awakened? I know a few of them, but they look at these signs, very 3D in a way to say, well, this is what's happening with the financial industry. This is what's happening with the increase in prices. This is what's happening with world politics. So they're very focused on that and they see this time as a demise. Can you speak about that and whatever that energy is? I believe you addressed some of it when you were saying, the hidden is going to come up. I feel that's what's happening is that the underbelly is being shown to be healed, but I'd love to hear your point of view. Yeah, and of course at last, you have to have to resolve and reveal what's being left in the shadows in order for that to decline. So one may not experience that reality if they're watching for news and the symptoms of news or the signs of news of what is happening on the global stage. It will look like utter chaos, of course. Of course, when you're creating a whole new field, like there's birthing pains, there's a whole new construct that's being designed in order to rebirth this plane, this world, this species. It is clear to state that nothing as it has been is working. It is clear too. Anyone can see that the way the world has been run is not in an equilateral way. It is not about honouring the holistic nature of anyone being or beingness and all livingness. It must transform. There are many ways to transform and some is to destroy and others is to do it gently. But when things do not move, when they are lightly pushed and gently pushed, there must be a force that comes and moves that. And this force is coming from outside of our solar system right now. Cool, that was my next question. Yeah, at the, you know, just the theme level, let's just, you know, keeping it a theme of what we're moving into. Like 2020 was the very mark of time where Saturn and Jupiter made the Bethless Hymn star that mark of time on the Solstice. The Harkins. That literally in the sign of Aquarius, two social planets that represent society at large, these planets are representative of archetypes and architraics that we live through. And as the biggest signpost was that we are in the Aquarian Age at that point. And it happens as a pre-wave in the 70s. You know, in the 70s as a pre-wave of this energy coming in, you know, 50 years ago. But and some are tuned to that and some have been preparing through that energy. But now it's like we're in a new age. And in the Aquarian Age, there's a few things that change. It's all about humanitarianism. Like if it's not supporting humanity, everything must fall if it's not supporting humanity. So that's one aspect of it. There's also a lot of technological advancement that can happen in the Aquarian Age. And ultimately there's a whole new open source architecture. We've come out of a plasmic cloud that was the actual field of our earth, the electromagnetic field of our earth has weakened.  So we're now in a new area within the universe. Because if you think about this earth, it's a massive earthship. It's literally traveling through space-time. And it is the mother ship. It's a jewel within the cosmos. So we are in a whole new area and it's opening up this open source architecture within the grids of this earth. We're seeing that in the financial system. Open source finance is called what? Blockchain, for example. And blockchain is just the beginning of where it's going to go to. But then you can see governmental industries trying to still hold control and using those systems for their own centralized agenda. So when we look at it from political level or the financial model or the healthcare model, it's all been centralized. So it's all been centralized around a very tightly held container of elite power, elitism. What's happening right now is that circuitry is opening up and the energy's being distributed out through the grids. It's being distributed out through the grids for people to receive that. In order for people to acknowledge the power inside them, they have to get a little bit uncomfortable. Oh, this is not right. This shouldn't happen. Why is this going on? So the people can not get angry but see what that means as a representation and a reflection of the war that's been happening inside one's own ego construct. But that is not an enlightened perspective. There's not an enlightened perspective to look at what is wrong. One must rise and see not just the focus expression of some dot somewhere within the cosmos but recognize that the whole dance that is taking place and that the grand orchestration. This is a time for absolute, absolute faith and knowing. Absolute faith and knowing that you've come here for nothing but a celebration and that you come here to bring the light in those places where the light has not been found for thousands upon thousands of years. This is the way it must be. I just wanna breathe for a moment. That's very powerful. That's very powerful. I feel like that was an offering to people, to an invitation to perceive differently and to really awaken to what's happening. Are we getting help? I already know this answer but what kind of help are we getting from beings from other planets, benevolent beings from other galaxies, dimensions, timelines, et cetera? How are they showing up for us right now? There's over 400,000 different humanoid species in our galaxy alone and they're all supporting this great ascension cycle. It's like earth has to catch up basically is what's being shared consistently is helping make new choices, helping through the dimensional blends, helping the assistance for people to attune to a more of a unified field of intelligence awareness. So there's always been help but more than ever there is help right now, absolutely.  Let us say that the help that is coming in, this help is deeply connected to what occurs on this planet because what happens here can affect and does affect what happens in other systems, let us say. Absolutely. And so not only is there a great benevolence that is here working, helping, assisting, but just like a match of frequency must be there in order to have an appropriate communication with a human being, it is such that that match of frequency and some aspect part of your being and beingness must also be able to make that match in order for there to be a coherent communication and for them to be able to really step in for us to be able to step in appropriately because this is a free will zone. And what does that mean? The earth is one of the only schools in the universe that is a free will zone. That means that the children, create here unencumbered by anything or anyone, if we could say one. Not really because there is the law of karma that does create the sort of counteractivity of that. But that's already set in on the planet in the existence of anyone here. It isn't something or someone that is interacting or trying to stop or prevent something from happening. One must ask for intervention. One must ask and pray, not from the space of what can I get from something, but what can I give? How can I raise to the point where I can truly, truly be a pillar of light for this world? Then the help will come in in ways that are magnificent. Those ways will pour open one's heart in unimaginable experiences. But the caveat here is that does someone really have free will? Because if your awareness is based on the constructs of your conditioned minds and the beliefs of difference ancestral conditioning or parental conditioning or societal conditioning, religious conditioning, and you're perceiving your life through a filter of your own minds, that is in division, you have a divided mind, then who's making the choices when the mind is creating thoughts from corrupted beliefs? So your choice, if it's coming from the mental state, it's going to be based on your past conditioning of what you have learned. But inherently free will comes from the heart. When you choose love, there's no opposite to love. Some say there's love and fear, but there's not really an opposite to love. Fear is ignoring love. Is ignoring that love is always here. So when you make choices from a space of love, it's unity, it's unifying, it's unity consciousness.  And compassionate mercy. And that's the great lesson here is the polarity integration. So the idea of giving humanoids free will so they can just see what happens. It's more like there's a lot of programming that's happened and there's a lot of information that has been embedded into the grids and the lands and the memory fields. And a lot of people are playing out the stories of their ancestors or their stories of the lands or the stories of the wars and all the catastrophes that have occurred. They're just replaying. So this whole... Because they are seated within the memory fields of those living on those lands. Yeah, and so what's happening right now is this whole grid is being reconstructed. And what happens with that is that a lot of people don't know who they are anymore because the belief systems, the identity that they've been trying to pull from is not available in the circuitry system that holds the memory in the field. And this is happening over time and time. And this happens, for example, when an astronaut goes out into space and they leave the electromagnetic field of the Earth, some have had full-blown mystical experiences because the biochemicals in their brain just start activating outside of the Earth's electromagnetic field. And another symptom is they just forget completely who they are. They just don't have the memories because all your memories... The brain is receiving oxygen like it does here.  It's in the energy field. It's in the field. So if you're in a different field, you don't have the reference points to pull from. And so a lot of people will struggle through this time, even though it's a great occurrence, it's chaotic for people that aren't based on their hearts because it's a heart compass that connects you to the greater field. And if you're not there, the mind is going to be basically struggling. And so this is... Much more so than we're seeing now. Yeah, so it is important to acknowledge coming back to the heart is the key to all of this. This leads us to the path of divine service. It does indeed. Yeah. How can we surrender to this path of inner mastery through the path of divine service? What does service mean to you? It's a beautiful question. Service means several things. On one hand, it means using my gifts in a way that betters, leave something, people, locations, situations, energy. Totally different than when I entered it. It also means that I know this because when I do sound baths and I sing and I perform one of the big feedback that we receive is way above your singing voice, is that it's really the love that people felt in the room. And I do have a huge heart and sometimes it's very easy to love and especially love a beautiful group of people who've showed up. And so I think love is an enormous service. And whether that's in a sound bath or I'm in an elevator or at an appointment and I can change the energy there. I also believe for me, service is if something's happening, that's a crossroads and I am a witness to it or aware of it, what am I going to choose to do? It doesn't mean it's so, for me, it doesn't always mean it is mine to do. But there are times I know I must. I must step in. Sometimes I need to protect somebody. Sometimes I need to speak up for myself or somebody and sometimes I just need to do something because whether I'm noticed for it or not, thanked for it or not, but because it will create a change and because I know in my heart I must. Thank you. What does service mean to you? Service is love in action. Service is the way one expresses that cultivation of love. And it isn't, it's an unconditional loving presence. True service is the giving all of yourself without expecting really anything in return. It is something that is inbuilt into the soul matrix when it comes into a body that becomes in soul. And what does that mean? It means not just a piece of your soul or you're working with the connection to your soul but you're actually bringing your soul into your body. And when you bring your soul into your body, there is this inwelling and upwelling movement and momentum towards giving because that's really what the purity and the nobility of the soul is here to do. And so you're looking at service and knowing that that's really why you're here. Like that's really why you've come here but service without love is selfish. Really, if it's more self-ambitious for your own benefits, then that service can just be self-serving. So the service that we're speaking, the divine service is the very nature of the soul expressing its love or the very nature of spirit expressing love through your actions. But in order for service to be true, love has to be discerned. You say love, not just the feeling of love, not just the romantic idea of love but love also in its complete neutrality. Love being the very awareness that you actually are. Not your mind, not your emotions, not your body but the very awareness that you are. So discerning between fear and love, fear being ignorance, fear being ignoring the truth, fear being making errors that you know not to do and love is making those true choices from who you truly are because there seems to be this ascension to something better, something greater but really you are already perfect in the totality of what love already is and because you are love, you're already perfect but to demonstrate that perfection is what one must strive for, one must thrive with expressing that love in their body, loving the body, loving the emotions, loving the thoughts, sending positive thoughts, loving through spirituality and unconditional love for unity and then one can truly be in service because then you actually have what it takes to be of service which is love in action and in order to truly be in service you must have detachment. What that means is you must be detached from the emotional outcome of what you do. So when you're doing something it's not for, oh, so I can feel better, oh, I can do this so I can be seen or I can be heard or I can be finally noticed. No, it's you do what you do because that's who you truly are. You are truly generous.   You experience the profundity of life that you're detached from any emotional investments and therefore you no longer experience suffering because you have no expectations. Suffering is an attachment to an expectation that you have pre-cognized to what you want from someone or something. So being of truly service, you are letting go of those expectations, those emotional investments and you can get there and by getting there you can make any aspect of your life of service. So the teaching of service also goes to the point of you use every aspect of your life to serve the divine. Whether you get paid for the work that you do, fantastic, fantastic, you should be repaid for the goodness that you're sharing and if someone gives you the frequency of finances, so be it. If they don't, so be it. If there's that giving, there's that replenishment that takes place naturally but it's an offering. Service is to make your life an offering no matter if you have a nine to five, no matter if you have children, no matter if you have a family or a garden or anything, even if the dishes. Anything that needs to be tending to. Anything that needs to be tending to when you're mindful and within your heart and you're doing it with love, you're making that an offering to the divine and that is what we mean by service. Can you highlight some ways that someone can be of service? Simple, larger causes, the spectrum in order to be of this divine, selfless, unconditional service. Yeah, like we said, you can be doing your dishes and you can make that an offering. You know, you can make that an offering and if you have a family. You can pay your bills. You can make that an offering.  Thank you so much to have electricity. And you thank you so much that I can actually pay these bills. Like what a blessing that I can do that. Anything can be turned into a level of service. The highest level of service we're speaking about, love in action, full love. It's when you're not noticed, when no one sees you and we speak about this as like helping with, you know, meditating and creating coherence. The greatest work that you can really do of service to be completely honest. There's two things here. One is internal work. Do the deep dive.  Question every single thing that you've ever learned. Go into the, and unmask all the egoic notions of the story.  Do that work. Clear, purify, heal, all of the inner child stuff, all the parental stuff. Go as deep as you possibly can. That psychological process and the spiritual process of unmasking, all of that. That's service because what you do inside yourself, you're creating a ripple effect to the collective. So you're serving the collective by walking the ascension path, just by walking the ascension path. Another really big, noble, beautiful level of service is working with the grids, working in community, coming together in a sanctified, coherent container with other loving beings that are of your soul tribe and meditating frequently and meditating at certain strategic locations and times at grids, at nodal points, because when you go to a place, like for example, in the middle of our temple, we are so blessed to be able to steward this sacred node, which is basically like this vortexial chalice of frequency that is a center point that connects to many different grids all around the world. It's one of the most powerful nodes on the planet. And we've connected it to many different grids all around the world from, and this is large, but what we do is we bring our community and sometimes we do it online as well. We meditate and we send the very vision, the very frequencies, the transmission of that coherent love. It is multiplied. So if you have a small group of say 10 people, 20 people, 100 people, even a thousand people, it's still small in comparison to the greater number of humanity. But when you go to a node, a very powerful node that's expansive and connected into other grid networks, that those 10 people, those 20 people become millions and millions. And so the energy becomes multiplied. And when you do that consistently, this is where you can serve the greater worlds and the greater ascension cycle. That's right. And if you are one of those... It's 333 right now as we say that. And if you are one of those people that are also what we call liberated and you've done true cultivation, you can offset millions and hundreds of millions of people and beyond depending on the attainment that you've reached. And liberation in this context, what we're speaking about, because ultimately the word is freedom, but what is it freedom from? It's freedom from all the calmers, the samskaras, the soul scars, the samskaras of incarnation, all of the genetic pool of data in your genome, all of that information in your ancestry tree and within your soul tree, all of the negative karma, which means that it's creating deviations from the divine will, all that is purified. So the longer you're in this causal reality where you make an action that creates an effect, you're in an our causal reality, which means that you are beyond cause because you are not in a place of duality, you're in full unity with all that is.  You know, the purpose of life is to find your gift and your destiny is to share it with the world. And then as you actualize your abilities, there's a deeper level. There's a deeper level, which is self-realization. You realize the unmistakable truth, that one truth that is like a golden lock, I mean, a golden key that unlocks all the doors, all the locks in the mind. The mind is satiated and freed and so is the heart. So that's where you realize the truth and then a maturation of that realization becomes total liberation where it's irreversible, complete liberation. And the frequency of a being that holds that codex or holds that field, that liberated field is humanity itself. Because there's no longer a persona of an individual genetic gene pool or ancestral tree, it is the very species or the very expression of humanity as a whole. As a... And beyond humanity. Yeah, as like a source fractal, so to speak. You know, everyone's a fractalized aspect as a whole. This becomes more of a source fractal that is all of it contained in the one. And that's the true nature of consciousness. But to embody that, to have a mind that's fully enlightened to that, to have a heart that's fully activated in coherence with the unified field. That's a different story. That's master it at the grand level. I know that you both offer these empowerment transmissions and people can get on your newsletter and become aware of those whenever you offer them. So empowerment transmissions, for instance, about manifesting parts, wishes, desires, being of service, any of these things. And some of them overlap. Hopefully they overlap quite a bit. And what is behind the transmissions? And how might we also engender that ourselves, bring up that energy within ourselves? Yeah, it's simply... It's pure cosmic force. And it's simply the science of harmonic induction. What we're doing is utilizing the field, the one unified field, the cosmic force of creation. Utilizing that field to harmonically induct you into a higher coherent state, in a higher reality, into a higher field. So you feel more your true self. You feel more loving and kind and generous and giving and more of a demonstration of the true nature. You experience that peace and through that field, you can have instant healings, you can have instant epiphanies, you can have profound creative ideas and it can help restructure your entire life. So one thing that we love to do, we have miracle mentorships where every single month we come together and we help beloveds. You really understand the theme of the cosmic dance. Like what is the theme of every single month? What is the initiation that one is going through as the sun goes through a new energy field in a new consolation? The sun represents a light of your soul. So that means an aspect of your own soul is also going through that. So how do you partner with the cosmos? How do you become a micro expression of the macro existence? How do you weave into the metacosm, all the many forces and cycles within creation? So we teach that and what we do every full moon is to have full moon transmission because the full moon is the full illumination of the sun, the solar light, emanating from the moon. Just as consciousness is the light of truth, it emanates out and through the minds of humanity. And so the mind is also like the moon, has many different faces, has many different thoughts and processes. And the sun is like the light of consciousness. And so we just use the field, the fields to harmonically induct you back into your true nature, to whatever you're ready to get to. That's why sometimes it's a gentle process and sometimes it's a powerful cosmic awakening or a cosmic slap, depending upon if you need that quick, re-snap into alignments, but ultimately it's just to better your life. It's a complicated answer to a complicated question, but the basis of that is just the larger your energy field is, the more you've cultivated, the more cosmic force you have to send. It's in fact that simple. Cultivation and absorption is key. All is light, right?  How much light do you actually hold and how much light can you transmit? So that's what ascension is. Ascension, any symptom, whether it's positive or negative perceptually, it's more light being anchored in to your cells and lighting you up. And that is the ascension process. Well, we call it in-sension because it's an internal process actually. It's the in-sension and you're ascending within. And so every empowerment session, every transmission that we do is designed to just blanket you with highly coherent light. And what about ascending the physical body? Are there secrets to ascending the physical body? Will you tell them? So, okay, so secrets, let's acknowledge what you're really asking. You're asking what unfolds to the ascension process for the body? And what's the secrets to accessing more of this light? There's a safety mechanism that plays out. You know, if you understand that through the science of cymatics, when we give this demonstration a lot, like cymatics is the vibrational dish, you put sand on it, you increase the frequency, it creates different complex geometric structures. So those geometric structures is a external version of what's happening in your cells. The higher the coherent wave form of frequency that's going through your biology, you're creating new geometries within your cells, within the waters of your body and within the circuitry system of your biocircatory system and your energetic bio-energy field. So the higher the frequency and you can't just blast the frequency or the sand just goes straight off the plate. And that's exactly what happens. If you blast the frequency, you get short circuited basically. You have to, it's a gradual step by step process. And the first process is purification. That's why I said earlier, purification is 98, if not 99% of this process. But the great secret is get a good teacher. Get a good teacher that has gone through the process and then you'll find the summit. Because if you walk up a mountain, there's infinite ways to walk up the mountain, but there's only one best way. And if you have a guide that's done it before and you have the most direct routes and direct path, it's gonna make it so much easier for you. So the map of your... And safe and safer for you. Yeah. And so the map of your biology and the ascension processes, they unfold at different octaves of where you're at on your journey. So you need to make sure that, teachings up here mean nothing if you're not there.  They're all equally relevant to getting to the next floor in your life. So that metaphor is also pertaining to this message. Is that the secrets? All of this, there's many secrets. There's many secret passageways, there's many secret circuitries. There's different energy systems. There's different chakras that can help you embody more gifts. Like there's many, many things. Like there's all the tellers, the telekinesis, the telepathic connection. Ultimately what happens is all your energy centers, your endocrinology, all the endocrine glands and the energy centers of the chakras, they start merging. They go into a gold spiral and then they merge into one coherent field and all the sheaths that we spoke about with the bioenergy field, your aura, they start coalescing. They turn into this luminous light body and that's where everything is in a harmonic state where all your chakras are aligned coherence, your field is aligned and coherence and then your field can actually go through another metamorphic transformation because the cocoon of your shell, your field is the very home that actually can hone that light then birth into more your angelic nature or the butterfly in this metaphor. Yummy, yummy. Do you have experience with ETs and UFO connections? Are you in constant communion with that factor or any other factor that isn't seen by the eyes? We have, yes. We have had many encounters, we've sit on councils with different star races from different committees and different signets. Indeed, we've assisted in many different ways off planets. We've been on countless ships and had physical experiences of the physical body going to, yeah, we've had a lot of that. We don't talk about these sorts of things. We don't go around because they own, we've bought potential doors and we can do this and we don't do these. That'll be back in time. But I live for this. So this is tremendous. So thank you for being so honest, I appreciate it. I mean, I think people know anyway, listening to you, feeling you, it's very obvious, but it's interesting to hear it certified. And are these people, are these races or beings that you commune with? So these are ongoing relationships that you have? Yeah, yeah, we could say that. There's relationships, but it depends what the purpose is. That's really the interaction. It's not just for exploration. It's not just to explore and sort of see what's possible. It's more like there's a purpose behind the encounters. There's a purpose behind different communications. There's also different planetary systems that we've incarnated from and that we check in frequently. And then we travel. We travel to different realms and realities. And so this is the fun. This doesn't really have anything to do with spirituality, to be honest. This has nothing to do with spirituality. This is just the fun of what can happen. This is just a different level of genetics that we're talking about that allows us to have these kinds of interfaces. My God, this is like the best movie and novel all into one. We're being very conservative right now. I can tell and I'm going to honor that. And what about is there a sacred medicine that you use that assists your work? Is there something that you like to use or follow or ritual practice? Anything like that? We have different certifications that we teach that helps basically give you certain technology to employ into your life. We like to empower people, empower beloveds that what we've found valuable or would have been valuable in our journey. We want to offer that that very value to humanity. So we've created it. Yeah. So we've created different modalities that go into the entire anatomy of the ascension process of the physical body and what happens and what you need to clear what needs to. So you have basically what we've done is give you access to the different quantum charts, so to speak, the quantum screens of the unified field of what if you had clairvoyance and you had the ability to see or sense or feel. These are the aspects that you want to work on and focus on. So we give you tools in order to attain those higher sense perceptions. So we do that. We also teach a lot of the internal alchemy processes. The alchemical process that can help rejuvenate the physical instruments. And because your physical anatomy is a temple, is a sacred temple. It is a divine, it is a divine design. The original blueprint of the human species was a divine design. A lot of that knowledge has been forgotten. So when you learn how to connect with the divine system of the original blueprint of your anatomy, you understand the metaphysical processes that occur to each organ and each gland and each bodily system. And that interconnects to planetary systems and celestial constellations. So you are the body is a measurement of the cosmos. So we love to teach that. We also are very blessed to be stewards of sacramental alchemy, sacred alchemical elixirs that do help support. This is only available for our very high, high depths. And we only when you allow that when you've got to a point of higher cultivation.  You are the elixir. You are the technology. You are the greatest technology. Just forgot how to use it. It's dormant for most people on the planet. Yes. So we're here to teach people, activate it. And there's many things we believe in giving you every single spectrum of the rainbow is the full spectrum of every color and every ray to be able to make your life heaven on earth. Right. Not just twin ray, but all the spectrums of the ray. And you will be a Conscious Life Expo, February 10th through the 13th. Tell me what you're going to be talking about. And again, for folks, there is a link here in the show notes so you can register to attend highly recommended. You can get to see these beautiful beings in person. Please tell us what will you be talking about? We're going to be doing the opening ceremony, so we're going to be welcoming everybody and transmitting in our field in the space. And so it will be a beautiful opening and a wonderful womb space to bring everybody into to really ascend them and catapult them through the journey at the Expo. That's the full journey. And that's at what time? 1 p.m. 1 p.m. on Friday. Beautiful. She looks at me like I'm. You're the agenda. I have no idea what day is it? Friday the 10th at 1 p.m. Absolutely, L.A.X. Hilton. I will help you if you need help. I'll be there. You told us to show up and we show up. You told us when it's time to go and we go. So we have we have two other workshops by doing Living in Heaven on Earth and we're teaching all about more that we've expressed today, but giving you practical applications of literally experiencing heaven, which is your entire reality being filled with the love and the joy and the peace and the miracles that you truly are. So that's we're going to go deep into every single layer of the process that unfolds naturally through the ascension cycle so you can truly live heaven on earth. And it's it's a very complete workshop. It's something that is is a beautiful, beautiful gift. And then the second workshop we have this free workshop. Yeah. And then the second one we have is five day ascended relationships where we're going to go into relationships. I'm going to teach about calling in the one. What's it mean to call in the one and also live in the oneness of a relationship of perfect your relationship into a higher harmonic so even if you're in a relationship, how to create more of that oneness that you're talking about that divine relationship, divine sacred relationship within what is already established. Exactly. Yeah, this is and we haven't done this yet.  So this is the first time that we're really going to share. And this is by popular request by a community. Just to make it clear to you and to all of the beloveds watching, we are in what's called a braumeteria relationship. Yeah, which means that we're completely celibate. That's right. So we are in a celibate relationship because we are in one coherent field and we are one expression. So. And may I just say, I know this watching you, it is, it's like a symphony. Hearing you speak, for instance, Sonanda Ji and Shakina Ma, it's like a ballet with her hands is almost speaking, enacting what you're saying, but a compliment constantly to watch the both of you. It is so beautiful. And it is for certain to me, incredibly apparent that there is a one energy, a shared space there. Thank you, beloved, for those precious words. And yeah, so we're going to teach more about that and how sacred a container of relationship can be. And we also have a booth and we're bringing our Haven, which is our store here in Ashland, Oregon. We're bringing the Haven. It's a temple store. Yeah, it's a temple. It really is. It's very palatial. It's a sacred crystal offering. It's yeah. And so we're bringing special, special, special aspects. We shared earlier about the Elixir, for example, there's a golden Elixir that we're bringing and that is fully encoded with gold, which basically allows you to, you know, embody gold, which is a superconductor for your pineal gland and for your entire biology. We have this goes through the blood-brain barrier, which is extremely important. Yeah, it's real alchemy. It's not just, you know, blessed water. It's really profound in what it does and what it's actually from a 5,000-year-old recipe, actually, but that's just one. We've actually created a whole line of biaceuticals, which are like whole food supplementation to support the ascension. They are bringing miracles to just true, true wealth and health for people. Yeah, for us, we wanted to create something that because there's so much soil depletion, there's so many different chemicals that one is bombarded with in their day, a lot of the ascension symptoms is actually detoxification. So we wanted to create a whole line that would give you as much nutrients. So like one of our formulas, for example, it's called Galactic Gaia, one scoop of that is like having 1,000 salads. Like you just can't eat that amount of nutrients, but this impals the body. So it detoxifies, rebuilds, restructures, rejuvenates. So we've got this whole line of biaceuticals that we're bringing and crystals and sacred offering candles and ancient... I'm living artwork. Yeah, ancient incense for ceremonial... Sacred aspenas. Will you be at your booth very much, do you think? Oh. Ish. Our team will be, and they're all amazing. Our team is like they're all incredible, bright, light angels. So whether we're at our booth, we might make an appearance or so, but we got our booth for our community. That's why we got the store. We got the store for our community to give them dynamic service for the world. And what they tell us every single day that the store is open is that the amount of healings that happen just from coming in, the frequency changes, people so significantly, some start to cry when they come through and they feel like they're home for the first time. Children that are coming in feel like this is... They're finally being understood for the first time and it's definitely revolutionary. Yeah, it's nothing quite like it. It's very celestial. It's very sort of... Like we are. Atheric and celestial. And it's a full experience just to come. And we have all these sacred jewelry offerings as well. So we're going to bring everything in. Our twin ray talismans. Yeah. Some of the most powerful talismans on the planet. Yeah, they're pretty amazing. They expand your field by like a 300 yards. Like it's amazing. I was thinking it'd be so cool to come to the booth and if somebody could... I was thinking of you, but if perceive my body and what would be good for me to get, I don't like to just get whatever. But if there's something in particular that would be very powerful for me, that sounds fabulous. They are trained to do that and we can also help a little bit. Yeah. Our angel team is well trained. They're well certified and we're teaching our community how to scan someone's biology. Excellent. Oh my gosh. Exactly what they need in order to rectify whatever symptoms they're experiencing. Right. What bioseuticals they would need. What energy. What energy needs to call in. So we've been doing that, yeah. Nice. Much more to come. We're really just beginning. Yeah. We really are just beginning. I'm so grateful to know the both of you and this conversation was amazing, powerful, full of wisdom and insight and I feel so directive really opening a possibility for people and all of us to step into in a big way. And I thank you for that. I can't wait to see you in person in a few weeks. That's gonna be tremendous and to also watch you speak in person. This is dare to dream, Twin Ray. What are you next dare to dream? This is a huge question for you. So I'll leave it to you but what are your future dreams or goals? Our dream is to manifest the full kingdom of God on physical planet Earth for every beautiful pure heart to live in the sovereignty of their soul, sovereignty and purity of their being and to live in harmony in the utopic, euphoric Eden of what this life should be and can be and we're going to do it together. And we're going to do it. Yeah. This is a co-creation. So our dream is the heart's calling of humanity's dream. Our dream is the destiny of humanity and we have come for that. Thank you. How lucky are we? How lucky are we? Folks, if you would like more information go to twinray.com also LA Conscious Life Expo coming up. It'll be worth, I promise, your time. And I end today's show with this quote from Stephen Covey, perform anonymous service. Wherever we do good for others anonymously our sense of intrinsic worth and self-respect increases. Selfless service has always been one of the most powerful methods of influence. Subscribe to this number one transformation conversation. Dare to dream with Debbie Daschinger. Subscribe, like, send this to friend or family who you know need to hear this conversation. Next week on the show, I am featuring the amazing Oscar Mira Guzada. And he's respected Kamasca Correndera and Alta Miso Yoke, adept from Peru. Founder of the heart of the healer, originator of the Pachacuti Mesa tradition. Oscar is an internationally acclaimed shamanic teacher and healer. And I promise we will be having profound conversation indeed. Thank you for joining us today on Dare to Dream.


Richard Saunders is next and Richard Saunders is one another one of my favorite human beings in the world He's from Australia, which you know just look beyond that. He's still really great No, of course one of my favorite human beings I didn't have a chance to write a limerick, but I will afterwards. I will Richard. I'm sorry Please welcome to the stage the one and only Richard Saunders There once was a man called Geo You'll have to make up the rest ladies and gentlemen. I I'm No limerick for Richard Saunders. What's all coming to thank you very much? It's such a pleasure to be here once again at the amazing meeting I I Guess you feel the same way I do those people who come back year after year you find yourself down at the Del Mar Bar Or in the corridor here or sitting there and you think did I really go away? Was there a whole year between Tams? I think they just wheel me downstairs to a cupboard under the roulette table and open the door before Tam and out I spring in here. I am again this year keeping the brain sort of theme going I'm going to be looking at what I call looking into or through or at or With the psychic mirror in other words what do Psychics believers maybe conspiracy theory people think When they look into the mirror What's their world like and what do they think when they see us the skeptical community? Last year. I gave a talk here. We could get the slides up of that. Are you seeing my slides or me? Oh, you're seeing my slides excellent last year I gave a talk which was called looking into the Mind of the true believer again, it's sort of like a little adventure in psychology This is what the one of the most interesting things I find about this whole skeptical adventure. I love looking for monsters in UFOs and Spoon bending and all that But the adventure of looking into the the mind thinking process, especially of the believers is personally for me It's endlessly fascinating first though, I thought I'd bring you a little something from Australia a Genuine card there. I wonder if they spoke to mr. Randy before they saw that I Thought that was very appropriate. We have many wonderful mystics and seers and Strange people in Australia, but this woman really took my attention and this is a skill a rare skill that I think we all should have She talks to chickens does your chicken have a psychological problem What does the chicken say? I'm sure she can translate that Australia if you haven't come to Australia, it's a wonderful place full of people who talk to chickens James Randy is a frequent visitor to Australia. We are so lucky In fact James Randy was one of the reasons Australian skeptics started in the first place He came in 1980 did a series of water-divining tests and that led to the formation of the Australian skeptics. Thank you, sir Thank you Talks to chickens What's wrong with that? briefly As most of you know, I'm the president of the Australian skeptics I've been involved with many things over the years including the James Rageen educational foundation million-dollar challenge Which we're hopefully hopefully working towards again this year I've been on TV. I do TV and movies and I invented the origami flying pig Which some of you have seen around after a request from mr. Randy he I Made rabbits and for him and something years ago and he said Richard make me a flying pig And that was the result. I'm very pleased that you asked me to do that Randy And I love it when people come up to me and show me the pig that they've made the flying pig It's for an origami creator. That's very flattering. It's somebody likes your work so much that that that they want to make it That's that's just tremendous Ladies and gentlemen, I am so pleased that dr. Carl Krasnicki is here at TAM this year Yeah I'm absolutely thrilled. I saw his talk just yesterday, and I know people have been chasing him in the corridor for various reasons he's Australia's best love science communicator and just to have him here and to experience TAM is a personal thrill for me Just fantastic stuff, and I do the skeptics on podcast, which is coming up next week to episode 300 I'm very happy about that 300 every week getting out of podcast. I think Steven novella and a few other people know that what that's like and Here's the gang that helped me put the show together my reporters so to speak Those of you who listen to the show there that the faces Behind the names you know so well our newest reporter is Joe alabaster there in the top Section who's doing a wonderful Segment for us called evidence, please and very soon. It's her birthday So I'm gonna put my little recorder up there if everybody could say after three happy birthday Joe alabaster one two three If she's watching the Twitter feed now, she's just gone red and that's fantastic I think it's Somebody might know but it's two o'clock in the morning in Australia or three o'clock or some some silly hour Then I love doing the skeptic zone and in the last ten minutes I have launched my documentary the vaccination chronicles. It's now live to the world. This is a half hour documentary Made over the last couple of years Interviewing people of their true stories of a time before vaccination It's a message to young parents saying when these people Were younger They saw first-hand polio wards iron lungs and this sort of thing if you get a chance, please Google the vaccination chronicles It was a personal project of mine, and I'm very pleased that that has been launched officially here at Tam It's a good feeling it it truly is a good feeling. It's good to Over the years. I've picked up many skills here and there like origami But one of them is video production and video editing and it's nice to use those skills To create something like this let's think about part of the human condition and why we are here and Why other groups who think differently are somewhere else and I think it's pretty safe to say that we Want and need and like and wish to be on the right side on the winning side We've got the right idea. We've got it right not those other people they make him around to our point of view But we're in the group that is on the right track. This is a universal thing. That's why people come here This is why people go to mind-body spirit festivals or as we call them in Australia mind-body wallet festivals Because There that's their people too and they're right and that's that's absolutely fine I can completely understand that Please keep that in mind. I Keep that in mind when I'm dealing with people who have these claims Most of the people I've met have been sincere about it. They really have there is a small Residual of people who are not and we'll get to that shortly. It's very important to remember now Let's see what happened one time many years ago And there's a few things to look out for here. I Would draw your attention when the time comes listen to the studio audience listen to the studio audience and this is a very good example of how believers react to skeptics And this has audio too, so we might need to adjust that once it starts playing That needs to go up Who could ever forget skeptic James Randy and his appearance on the Don Lane show Randy was on to argue to Don and the audience that psychics were shams Notice here how he first bends the key on the chair before pretending to bend it by rubbing it the way you've bent it before Unfortunately, Randy made the mistake of questioning the powers of Yuri Geller and Don's friend Doris Stokes And it was Don who spat the dummy now you didn't Let me finish what I'm gonna say and then you can talk all right There are people who will love it because they say it was a great moment in television They thought it was terrific, and it's we're talking about it But really don't probably could have done that a big deal with me What you've come here you're offering $5,000 to people to say people are fake She said Doris Stokes is a fake.  No, and that woman would lie to anybody, and I don't know whether she's right or wrong I am she would like anybody we're going for a commercial break, and you can Yes, don that's one way to go to a commercial break. Here's another come Wow that clip has been played every year on Australian TV for years and years and years and there's a Relatively younger man. I was watching at home when that all happened. That's the first time actually saw James Randy in any sense or that all happy days. I think mr. Randy that might have been it But what a reaction what a reaction not only from Don Lane who is an American may he died a few years back He was an American who came to Australia and made it big on on television in Australia, but did you hear the audience? Cheering on isn't that interesting? And it just reminds us that the the reaction from the audience That suddenly they're winning against mr. Randy or they who they perceive as the arrogant guy you know and Don Lane is their friend and the TV host and their hero and I could tell I could sense that just in the cheering and clapping It was a win again We're on the winning side in that case the studio audience was on the winning side because Don Lane showed that silly mr. Randy what's what and stormed off in that in that respect very Interesting what's going on in the mind Here's another clip just from the amazing meeting last year with Susan Blackmore and listen it's very short clip But she says something very interesting We turn that up with the with the Believers, I would tell you when I was a believer I did not get hate mail from skeptics Are you surprised or when I became a skeptic I got plenty of hate mail from the true believers Who know about spirits and nice things like that and good energies So she if in case you didn't hear it She said that when she was a believer she didn't get hate mail from skeptics, but when she turned into a skeptic She got hate mail from the believers You start screwing around with people's deeply held beliefs.  It's protection. It's sometimes it's anger. Sometimes it's Wanting to lash out. I guess it's feeling of betrayal if she was a believer and turned to into a skeptic Then there's this betrayal thing and I think we could all sense that I mean heavens if there was a Famous skeptic who gave it all up and was a turncoat and went to the other side I guess we'd feel betrayed too so I can understand that but it was interesting that she said she got the hate mail when She became the skeptic. I find that very interesting again from psychological point of view now getting back to what I said before and Mr. Randy said in 1980 when he visited Australia for these water-divining tests The people he's concerned about all the people he comes across most of the time are the people who innocently deceive themselves And then there's a small residual of people out there who tried to defraud their fellow citizens is exactly what I have discovered in all these years most people I deal with are Sincere they're not out to con anybody to hurt anybody to scam anybody and I always have to keep that in mind at so many times in the media When I'm doing media the media will just put people into two categories either their genuine psychics or Their evil scamming con artists this whole concept of the innocent Believer seems to be lost on them. Maybe it's too hard for them to relate that to their audience, but it's it's the biggest area that we've discovered Somebody else said There are no greater lies in the world than quacks of sick for their pay except for their patients Benjamin Franklin who used to write under the name of Richard Saunders. I kid you not Go figure What he meant by that What he meant by that was the people who have been who's who buy into a system Quackery for example acupuncture homeopathy He doesn't mean they're lying. He means that they will defend this system to the end So that that's what Benjamin Franklin was getting out in that sentence again. It's this entrenched belief and you will defend your entrenched beliefs. This is very human. This is very human and Again when you wake up in the morning and you read your skeptical list, that should be at the top people Many people are sincerely believe in these things and they will defend it And as a skeptical investigator, we have to keep that in mind reactions from believers to skeptics some years ago I Did a couple of series of a TV show in Australia called the one where I was a judge the skeptical judge alongside Stacy DeMarco there who was the believing judge if I can put it that way and Psychics would do various things for us and we would comment on them and at the end of the show I got to kick one off every week That wasn't fun at all however, it's it in this day and age and especially in the last series of the show I was at the the little party when the first show went to air because we taped it weeks before and then It was all edited and we all gathered for a little drink and the show went to air just a celebration that to see it go The producers are now and I'm sure this is the same here when a new show goes out the producers are glued to Twitter Instant reaction Right there. What does the audience think of my show as they're watching it? It's a revolution. It really is and The Twitter stream coming from the show was quite interesting don't worry if you can't read some of those at the moment and many of the people tweeting away were believers and you can imagine how Anti-skeptical they were Defending their point of view again and what it shows to me too is people are not afraid to voice their opinions on the internet. Oh my goodness me It's none of this. I better consider what I'm going to say It's straight away. I'm thinking this I'm tweeting it. It's out to the world So we got interesting reactions That one's just coming up now You know ladies and gentlemen I I'm a performer when I'm on that show I know I'm there not only to give what we might call an expert opinion on these matters But I need to perform on a television show and I tried to be Reasonable and friendly and I'd smile and all the rest of it doesn't matter. I was a skeptic. Therefore.  I don't care if this Jess is rad is a skeptic or a believer who or what she is To just say someone looks creepy is simply rude. It's just wrong. I Think that's horrible If they say things about me, I guess I'm used to it if they said my nose was big I might have complained but Yeah, so this is again this instant I must say this now even if it hurts people. I don't care. I'm going to tweet and say these things This this is interesting again. I love this this reaction on blogs and Twitter and Facebook and this is coming up to The situation I'll speak about in a moment There are still people out there who cannot believe that there are skeptics and Are absolutely gobsmacked that there's a group of skeptics and they have a president It's beyond them. It's what how can this possibly be? So you can imagine their reaction to to skeptical outreach and skeptical information Skeptics have their own association and a president what? That's crazy We try to test people in Australia as we do here at the Amazing meeting currently we're in negotiations with this lady Donna Abraham's who is trying to put together a TV show 12-series Documentary and good luck to her. Everybody Has the right to make their way in this world if they want to do that And she's looking for fun. So I noticed a report on By her on Facebook. I think it was Facebook on the internet and so This led to us offering her the money, but some of her claims are the sort of thing that we would get from a Someone who is generally thinks they are clairvoyant or psychic remote viewing psychometry Speaking to the dead communicating in this sort of fashion So I wrote on the Facebook. I said this is one for the Victorian skeptics our people in the state of Victoria I'm in New South Wales. I read her She did a reading for a newspaper reporter and I read it and it seemed to me like a typical cold reading now When I look at that again, it's a little abrupt. I think a tiny bit dismissive of me It's not exactly rude or exactly arrogant but it's maybe I could have been a little bit more polite Donna saw this and I Guess it sparked her interest hundred dollars a hundred thousand dollars from Australian skeptics would help her cause no end So she's put it on her Facebook Saying well, you know, she might give it a go she might try for our money So then we got some interest interesting reactions.  Whoops.  She must know my name is Richard.  This is me.    I mean I Do you think this is going to progress matters?  It's going to be They're gonna find them getting lawsuits. It's got to happen Kids or younger people these days are so used to putting on the internet whatever they're feeling and thinking they're going to end up in court You know, I I think that's going to happen So that's interesting and then we always get what I call the wise friend with a sage advice for our for me and our psychic Suggesting that it's easy to test paranormal people or this is how you should do it Paranormal is simply things vibrating at a frequency. We're not normally trained in it goes on and on and on But we look out for the wise friend they can bend your ear for two hours and say nothing But again, they're coming from this point of view and then we get One of the arguments that I I've heard so many times over the years. I've heard it on my own TV show Which is of course Do I believe in love and initially I didn't answer the question because it's just it's it's such a ridiculous question it and I did Come back. Of course. There's only one answer Yes, of course, I believe in love. Ah, but you can't measure it. Can you skeptic therefore? You'll hear it if believe me folks, you'll hear it. You'll hear it They'll say do you believe in love? Have you ever been in love? You say yes, we'll prove it then skeptic. Ha ha I win Think that needs its own special logical fallacy the all you need is love. That's right so but I Mostly tried to be polite constructive engaging charming Thank you And even the people who originally saying you arrogant so-and-so Had to admit that I spent a lot of time and effort trying to politely answer their questions And that I thought that was great, you know, at least to some of them. I'm not the cartoon Skeptic the evil guy in the big black hat or whatever it is the scientists of the mad lab coat Wanting to do these things So they're saying well They're congratulating me on answering their questions because I did went to extraordinary lengths to be polite and answer all their Questions about our hundred thousand dollar challenge. So you can at least charm people sometimes But here here, let's look at this reaction again of Us against them and these are It's a little hard to see some of those smaller ones But pages and pages of saying to Donna the psychic go on and you can do it go and win Show them up collect the money. We're right all this sort of thing like her cheer squad The psychology of it is fascinating getting behind somebody It must be the same. I mean if mr. Randy's going to do something We're all in our hearts. We're cheering for what he wants to do so I can see that happening on this side, too Absolutely When it comes to testing people like Donna Abraham's in in Australia or anybody I have to Just remind everybody that it's not an easy process by no means and I've certainly discovered that here working at the Million-dollar challenge over the past three years Negotiations are lengthy Fine-tuning is lengthy making sure everybody's happy. It's a very complicated process So if anybody ever says to you all testing a psychic can be easy. Let's let's do something really quick. It's not Sincerely folks. It's a very complicated Business when I was doing it here or doing it in Australia on television many many many hours for every test To get it right. I think For two reasons one we want to keep the applicant very happy and make sure they're comfortable and ready to go and two We want to make sure the test is Reasonably tight as tight as we can feasibly make it Can take a lot of time Let's look more now at the The believers reaction looking into that psychic mirror again not so long ago I was on Australian TV to give my opinion on UFOs There's a man Damien John Knot who photographs clouds and skies and sunsets and everything and Believes he is photographing paranormal events or unknown events and something like that I was the story on the TV show is about him But they interviewed me as the skeptic and that expression in the lower part of the screen sums it up. I think Really I wasn't so impressed Okay, I really wasn't I wasn't blown away by his amazing UFO footage But he took great umbrage To the fact that I was on the segment you can imagine the TV People turn up at your house. They do film a story about you and your Belief and what he does which is go out every night and in the evenings and photograph things and good luck to him Great if he's doing that. That's great and suddenly in the middle of this great story And you're sitting at home with a beer and everyone's enjoying it There's Richard Saunders saying yeah, and you know what I don't think so I can see I can see what's going on so he He wasn't happy and he took to Facebook to express his displeasure and basically saying that out Not so many words out testers is fake and he's not going to take it and it's crazy and his friend has chimed in Calling me a moron And things like this that they're not very happy at all. No, no, no, however Maybe he Changed his mind or his friends convinced him he's out now since then he's interested in applying for our one hundred thousand dollar challenge, which is his right to do it But the tirade that he wrote back to us when negotiation started was comical Absolutely comical. It was as if a 16 year old wrote it trying to be funny and Here's just little a segment of it Scoring very cheap and silly debating points and laughing at us and It just didn't make sense So I don't think this is some way we're going to progress very far, but again, it's this attitude of Let's show up these stupid skeptics Let's prove that they're wrong This anger almost within people against what we do or more importantly their anger is because we don't believe in what they do I would think it's more like it What am I this time some sort of bumbling buffoon am I Some sort of blunder from down under some way. I don't know very interesting. I'm I'm known around the world for Showing up various power balance routines and tricks and things like that There was a company called Shoesie, I think they're still going off. They're from New Zealand and this is interesting I met the the guy who owns it at a mind-body Wallet mind-body spirit fair and we had a bit of an argument All right, as you can imagine We had a bit of an argument and some time after that maybe a couple of weeks after that the following voice messages Came our way at skeptics headquarters in Australia, so we just played that oops try that again Don't don't get up. It's all right. Here we go Very good fellow here.  We are ready So it's kidding array and very good fellow so He called our line and called us scammers and I'll take your challenge We chased him for months and we're in negotiations to test him and then this happened Just when we were about to do it and on national TV. They fled the country So in a way, I'm sorry. I didn't get to Test them on national TV, but they fled the country Yes, and subsequently thank you Subsequently I did find out from a source that it was our relentless Pursuing of them and they knew I think if they knew that if they came to a real test on national TV Don't then the same fate would Before them as full power balance. I'm sure of that.  They say but our customers tell us that it's helped in these conditions It's every condition under the Sun It's just ridiculous So I had a word with these people at their stand. I was politely Arguing with them and all their claims. I Think I'll buy some myself and The man behind the the desk there was getting a bit short with me and in a reasonably loud voice so For those of you who can't see that he said something Which I can't repeat Now somebody got the joke But he was angry because I was distracting his customers and No, go get out of here I've got people who are gonna buy this and you're here telling me it doesn't work or asking me for evidence The anger that he told me to do that It was just amazing again looking at how people react Believers and I and I really think I'm talking about real believers here To skeptics a number of years a year ago years ago Connie Sun I think that's pronounced was here right on stage and she did a challenge. She failed and Later blamed basically blamed banner check for cheating her now this is It happens from time to time. It's what happens in the mind of the believer and they'll get angry about it They know their powers work if they don't work then I've been cheated by those scamming skeptics and Then of course we had Andrew needles Just two years ago. I think who was here on stage and didn't succeed again It was quite obvious and went home and later on we discovered he devoted pages on his website To saying how he actually passed our test by the way If you want to Google Andrew needles, thank you James J ref. It's a fascinating read It really is he took stills out of the official video to prove that these people were actually reacting in the correct way to his Marvelous power band. It's the mind protecting itself. Mr. Needles sincerely believes in his product We see this again and again This is completely normal for people to do this it really is and we must keep that in mind Oh, I've had fun over the years from believers folks. That's a great letter. I got many years ago Dear mr. Saunders so and so and so and so the highlighted sections are there But I must admit I've been a call the Mousketeer of evil by anti-vaxxers.  You'll have to agree Can you sense the frustration and the anger there? It's fascinating. It really is So Is a few truisms? I think What do they see looking through the psychic mirror back into the real world? What do we see?  It's very hard to overturn that belief and then You will do everything to defend your belief This again, I'll get back to why I find this area so fascinating the psychology of believers Even the psychology of skeptics in a way But really the psychology of believers and why they believe and how they defend their beliefs when they look through that psychic mirror Into the world. This is how they perceive it The negotiations with Donna are ongoing, but look at this now. This is from a guy who posted and Really was bitching at me for being too polite and he said very rude things about Donna I won't have that. I'm sorry if we're in negotiations with this woman if you think she's a psychic or not You don't call her horrible names. We don't do that. That's wrong and it doesn't get anybody anywhere so I I said no, I'm sorry You can't say that and he wasn't very happy with me at all But this this can happen from skeptics, you know Some skeptics get upset and start calling people names and bad things Maybe it's just me that I find that unacceptable Thank you, but but don't please don't paint me as the The the angel of virtue here. I get angry too. We're all human. It does happen. It does happen. I just try not to Let my emotions get away with myself there. Look before I wind up I must tell you that in November this year November the 28th of the 30th in Sydney, Australia We're having a huge convention the skeptics guide to the universe will be there George Rob will be there our patron Dick Smith Bettina aren't who is a famous Australian Researcher into sex will be there Sonia Pemberton who did a very great documentary called jabbed about vaccination will be there Dr. Rachel Dunlop will be talking if you're in Sydney, Australia Around the end of November, we'd love to see you at our convention and that's the hall It's going to be held in my goodness me and that looks impressive Ladies and gentlemen, what a pleasure it is to be at my seventh or eighth time I guess I'm losing count and what a privilege it is to be Also working with such people as Chip and Banner check and Jamie on on the million dollar challenge and mr Randy of course and everybody who helps so thank you very much Richard Saunders Richard so wait Richard wait ready, okay Not to step on your applause. I'm sorry. I did that but Richard I come hat in hand I had no limerick for you and in the future I'll pay but please let me say thanks for being the last speaker of Tam Richard Saunders