Hello everybody, if it's Wednesday, it's Warhammer and that must mean it's time for another episode of Warhammer Weekly Joining me as always is my co-host Tyler. What's going on, brother? How you doing? Good man. Gonna be here as always. You have fully replaced Tom at this point. It doesn't even exist in our minds.  Worry not everybody. He's, as we said before, he's just dealing with some stuff, but he'll be back around. Also joining us this week for the first time, very excited, Jordan Duncan on the show. Jordan, would you like to introduce yourself? Who you are? What you do? Sure. Just a quick synopsis. As you said, Jordan Duncan is my name. I drove by Season of War as our YouTube channel. We do obviously a lot of AOS content, primarily battle reports. So playing lots of games and having lots of fun. But we do have a more competitive take on the game, I think in terms of battle reports out there. We are a group of pretty competitive players, but have fun and love it all. All around Habigieg. Perfect. And the channel will be linked below so you can find everything you need to go check out Season of War. Go do that. It's great content. So check, check, check, check, check. Okay. So I need a little bit of excessive Midwestern sincerity here at the top. Go for it. Why not? About Jordan's channel. I mean, it's one of the best that's out there. I can only imagine an extraordinary amount of work that has gone into creating what you've created, Jordan, with some friends out offshore around there. But it's really remarkable what you've put together. The terrain, the camera, you've even got your wife involved in doing narrative voiceovers and she's doing an amazing job. You guys play a wide array of battle reports, sort of semi-competitive, full-on competitive, wide array of armies, beautiful armies. It's just one of the best out there. I just wanted to commend you on because it has been an extraordinary amount of work. Yeah, well, thank you. I really appreciate that. It is a lot of work in editing and all that. I mean, obviously we love playing, so it makes it all worthwhile. But like both of you guys, actually, I'm a huge proponent of all aspects of the hobby. I love competitive gameplay. I love painting. I love building and converting. I love the lore side of it. I love making tables look nice. I think something we have in common is we all interact with the hobby in almost every way possible. So I'm just trying to do everything as best we can and have lots of fun doing it. Thank you. Yeah, it looks like we might have a camera issue. It'll catch up. Your camera, Jordan, was a little stuck, so you were kind of frozen. We could still hear you normally the whole time. But it's probably just your internet coming through with your camera. It'll catch up so often. We'll get you. Yeah, if anybody is interested, I know you have a little membership that folks can join on YouTube to support the channel. I hopped on board a number of months ago. If anyone is interested, I would highly recommend it. It's the best whatever, two bucks a month that I'm spending right now. It does throw a long way to help, obviously, as we grow with the community support. It's been awesome and working with our premium membership. So our premium members hugely give us a ton of feedback in terms of what they like, what they don't like, and help us improve. That's the number one place we go to talking to all of them about what we want to do next or what's coming up and all that. Yeah, 100%. All right, I'm done, Ben. No, that's fine. So yes, we're going to again skip our normal format this week because there is just too much to talk about. I want to really focus this episode in on the points. Couple notes. So one, we're going to be focusing on the points and their impacts to all the armies today. We're not going to discuss endless spells because those are going to need their own whole separate discussion to look at the new war scrolls because they are so very different. That will be next week. Don't worry. We're going to get into things like the battle plans, the new battle plans and new victory conditions and stuff like that next week as well. So tactics, strategies, battle plans and the endless spells will be next week. Before that, this week we're talking points, impacts, armies, who's screwed, who's not, who's on top, who's on the bottom, winners, losers, heartache, suffering, the thrill of victory. That's what we're talking about today. So at any rate, don't worry. We're going to get back to the normal format as soon as we can. That was already a four hour show last week and that was without all this news. We will eventually talk about the Warhammer Plus stuff. Don't worry. Yes, I saw the news that our beloved, beautiful, perfect app is somehow getting replaced, but we don't know anything else beyond that. So we'll have to see what that means. I'm not going to worry until I know more. So the answer is don't worry. We'll get there. We will talk about it. And if they get rid of War Scroll Builder, we riot. Okay. So that's what we all know. All right. Anyways, let's get into the points right away. Okay. So so much to discuss. My gosh. So let's start on the summary. Average increase in the game was around 8% but distributed very inequitously. Okay. So like averages can lie. This is a well-known thing in statistics. Right. Like if you took the amount of money I have and the amount of money Bill Gates has, and averaged the two, it would look very big. Right. But that would not be a correct representation of our two financial situations. So we know averages can sometimes lie. But nonetheless, we do have over here a little bit of sort of winners and losers. I've got various examples. The big increases came in primarily like four armies that really ate it pretty hard, which were disciples, daughters, heed knights, and seraphon. The smaller increases were sons, OBR, S2D, and the flesh-eater courts. No changes were the soul-black grave lords, which isn't surprising because they basically, no changes for our purpose. There was one minor change. I'm not going to talk about it in this particular discussion. It's not worth discussing five points, basically. Or something, you know, that minimal. And then the, so because their book was just printed, it was obviously 3.0 ready. We are not going to talk about Stormcast or the swamp bogglers today. Sure. They won't, why, why are we not talking about swamp bogglers? Because the points in this tome are a lie. Straight up. Much like the cake, neither of these two armies, these are not real points. These don't matter. This is irrelevant. Okay. What's relevant is what's coming in your army book in like some, a month or whenever it comes out, couple weeks after the launch, two to four weeks after the launch. We already know the points are going to be different because in the launch video for how to play AOS 3.0, they showed a little snippet of the stormcast points and they're different. Which, by the way, is fine. Quite, quite different, actually. Yeah. And like it's fine. Okay. I don't mind them being different because when they made this box set, it would have been so far in advance of them making the rest of the stuff and they would have had to go to the team and say, look, what's your best guess on what these things point at right now? Yeah. Right? And then three months later, after all the play testing or something, they would have actually finalized the book and got to the real points because the lead time on producing these boxes is huge. Huge. Okay. Like, I don't think people understand the logistics of them, but if you were to like, just start fresh and you had everything ready to go, it would probably still be 18 months. Yeah.  I saw Liberators like 90 to 115 now. Excited, buddy. Excited. So. It's coming. I finished up my first test model for my army. We'll talk about that next week. But, oh, Rackast is coming. Excited. Oh, nice. Yeah. All right. So that's enough of my stuff. There's a little thing over on the side here on the side of the screen that shows like who was better or lower than the average. So everybody can look. So for example, like Sun's killing it at only a 0.32% increase, 7.63% better than the average. You can't, you got to love it. Okay. But let's talk high level. Jordan, I want to start with you. You're the guest. Okay. Yeah. Which thing overall like high level? I mean, you can talk maybe about an army or something. You play or not. I don't care. But overall you feel about how all the points came out. Oh gosh. That's so, so wide of a discussion point. I guess I would say I am optimistic about it kind of overall reducing potentially army size to a degree, especially with the smaller board. We played a game with the smaller board before the points changes and it's like a unit or two difference is actually a huge difference in terms of how much space you take up and all those things. Sure. So I'm optimistic. It's definitely like even just like looking at this building for me, like immediately it's like, I can't feel like I can write a comfortable list because I'm still in that mindset where I had 200 extra points. So it's, it's, I feel like for me, it's going to take some time to really adjust to be like, okay, I've got this list on the table. Now I can see, you know, get a better feel for it. Cause when writing them on paper right now, it just, it all feels bad. Gotcha. That's fair. It's, it's an adjustment, right? Yeah. You get less and so we all kind of have this sort of anchor pricing stuck in our head and about how much of everything we get and what our armies look like. And we now kind of have to accept that, oh, that's actually all different now. And in some armies, it might be very different depending on what you happen to be, especially based on your unit selection, right? Cause at every level, the averages can lie in different ways. Right. Tyler, what did you take? All right, good. Jordan, please continue. Oh, I was just to say, I guess it would be under big increase or maybe small to big somewhere in the medium, but like Loom Ness, for example, like my list went up 270 points. That's like an insane amount. So it's like you said, it's going to take some adjustment and then I'm, I'm optimistic again that it's going to be fine, but like my brain is just like going crazy right now. It's how, how am I going to make this work? But yeah. Yeah. Yeah. On Loom Ness, they're a good example because a lot of folks, of course, we're taking the Arlon Legion, which I know Jordan, your battle reports, you were running that with Techless and Sentinels, Wardens, et cetera. You know, so of course we've got a number of factions that are just losing their battalion as a starting point. So Daughters of Cain is a good example, even though they went up average of 21%, Viperate Guard was 140 points. So you take that off and you're getting compensated through the various CP generation that we have access to, that's a point generation. Yeah. So I think it's a little inequitous on that front. Like some of them are, you're not going to feel it as much because of the, just it's easy for them to lose the battalion and still be, still be in pretty good shape. Yeah. It's, it's all over the, it feels like it's a little bit all over the place. I mean, which isn't too unexpected. Like I think the first thought was this was obviously an enormous amount of work trying to, you know, so COVID's going on, playtesters, GW, they're trying to have this major revamp of the system, which 3.0 is much bigger than 1.0, and then trying to go and change the point values of all these armies with a number of, you know, different variables that are, that are getting involved, including the general desire obviously to increase the points across the board for the most parts. So it, it definitely, it's very hit or miss. You know, it's going to take I think another six months. Hopefully we'll have better processes in place, something that an events you, Tom, you and I, we've been talking about, I've been talking about for a long time, we need better development. Hopefully that will keep improving and then in six months time we'll be in a much better shape than we are right now. But I mean, on the whole, I, I'd say like six out of 10. I got, it's not terrible, but it's not amazing. Okay. All right. So I brought up some other views here, just other ways to slice and dice this data. Some of these tables, by the way, thank you very much. This all comes from Theo Jansen. I will drop his Twitter down in the, down in the show notes because he's the one who I just blatantly stole these from. So thank you Theo for putting together stuff. He, he, and we should state for this, all of the point tables I'll be working off of were started by the amazing AOS shorts, Dan, and then filled out by this incredible community that we have. Like I was in there, people were working on it, asking questions, refining stuff, you know, doing comments. It was bonkers great work by the community. So A plus if you're anybody who, I was like, I didn't have, this kind of all started on Thursday and I left. I had no internet from Thursday through Saturday. Right. And so I just kind of would like, I'd intermittently have a little bit of internet where my messages would just like go and come in and then I'd lose it. And cause I was way out in the wilderness. And so I just see like, and then it would be silent for a little while, which was fun time. But at any rate, we've got some interesting views here. So the big long chart is your battle line percentage change. So it's only looking at the battle line. And then what did that change? So as opposed to the last chart, which was, here we'll go back, which is the whole army. Right. And again, some of that, this is one of the ways averages can be deceptive. Right. If a hero goes up 15 points on a hundred points, that's actually quite a big increase. Right. If a hundred point hero becomes 115, that's a 15 point increase on that hero. Right. Which sounds like a lot. It's higher than the average. We just said was eight. Sure. Right. But you probably only take that hero once in most armies. Right. Whereas your battle line, if you're going to take three units of the same thing and they went up 20 points. Right. Then that's actually a 60 point increase to what your list represents. Because it multiplies out. Like this isn't revolutionary stuff. We all understand what's going on here, right? Yeah. Okay. So at any rate, this chart examines just the battle line increase. And this chart is really fascinating because by the way, this isn't battle line if this is literally just battle line, pure battle line people. Hence why the suns went down and the fleshier courts went down because ultimately the things worked out that way. Because in suns, as we'll talk about now, everything's just battle line. But at any rate, here you see that like LRL, when you look at LRL's percentage, they're not actually way up at the top of the average percentage, though they had some sizable things as we'll talk about. But when you look at their battle line as a percentage change, of what happened with wardens, suddenly that percentage jumps way up, right? So at any rate. So I might say it should have been a little higher with those sentiments, but hey. Well, we'll get there. We're going to talk about all of them. The other view up here in the top right, the battalion nudists versus serial battalioners, that is exactly what you were describing, Tyler, right? So the battalion nudists are how many people, how many battalions did you tend to take before, right? Did you often have, did your armies usually have battalions? Okay.  He's counting Gloomspite because he's counting the new battalions for Moz of Jorque and the Trogoth herd and stuff like that, right? Being very popular choices. Okay. Or sorry. It's saying that those are, that he's counting them as nudists because people weren't taking those, the standard Gloomspite army. Sorry, I have switched around. Only the specialized ones use that. That's what I was trying to say. I just said it backwards, right? So IDK, Seraphon, Skaven, Gloomspite, often didn't have battalions. Zinch, Flesh Eaters, Fire Slayers, Orc War Clans, all had battalions. I don't know about Flesh Eaters. I certainly, every, let me say this way, every Flesh Eaters or I mean, I've ever built, I've used a battalion or two, but that's because I'm a Smash Bad. But certainly Fire Slayers, Lords of Lodge, Orc War Clans, Iron Fist, Disciples of Zinch, Change Host. These are like three of the most famous battalions in the game. Right. Right. Okay. So and it's interesting to see how that compares because it's not distributed as you would hope. Right?  Mm-hmm. Right. Sure. Yeah. Yeah, that's really interesting. And then you've got the row label by type with the average increased. Mm-hmm. Oh, could I widen the box a little bit? Yes, I can move the box a little bit. There. Okay. That should be better. Hopefully that's all right for everybody. There we go. Yeah, it's showing all the numbers now. Sorry, everyone, if the numbers were kind of cut. I don't have anything else that runs this far to the edge. I just couldn't fit both of these in. Anyways, Behemoth lowest at 6%, then leaders at 7, mainly melee units 9%, mainly shooting units 10%. There we go.  See like how little difference there is like, like, and you know, mainly units going up 9% is wild to me. Yeah. Yeah. It certainly feels that way with, I'm not sure, you know, I'm trying to, you know, sometimes I struggle with this trying to get a sense of like, to what degree can we draw some useful conclusions or working conclusions from this right now. I mean, that does stand out. Certainly that's the 6% on Behemoth or monster. I mean, that absolutely, I would say stands out. So part of it, it's actually kind of obvious if you think about it. There's an easy explanation for this. Okay. We're, we immediately run to like grandiose game balance expectations. When actually, I think the explanation is much simpler. Okay. Monsters tend to be higher points. Okay. And we as a community and GW knows this, tend to look at points changes in their raw number, not in their percentage. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. And so when they move things, they tend to move things by 10 or 20 or 25 points. Right. So when you move wardens by 25 points, that's a big percentage change on wardens. Yeah. When you move a 400 point monster by 25 points, that might be impactful to that monsters, you know, play and what it does in the list. It's not that it's not, but that is a much lower percentage of its overall value. Right. So when you move to 25, you know, by raw sort of how much space they clawed away in your list, it's exactly the same. But when you start examining by percentage is different. Right. Right. I was just doing some quick math. Yeah. I think Dorothy went up about 12% 340 to 300. So if I did that right, which I may not have, but yeah, the trying to get a quick sense. Yeah. Cause some monsters, it did feel like they got maybe an appropriate increase, maybe a little bit too much, but relative to that baseline of 6%. But yeah, that's a great point, Vince. And also as we'll see a lot of the non-hero monsters ended up staying pretty flat and a couple of them moved down. Right. So they're also there pulling down that average. Right. When you've got a lot of zeros or negative twos or negative threes, they're like, you've got a lot of Saigors and Gorgons and, and Charybdis is just like holding on to Archeon. I'm like, don't worry, I'll pull your percentage down or, or Alario would be the better example right away. Well, and, and actually Alario's a good one too because she was repointed before the GHB. Right. So it wouldn't be reflected in this data. Yes. Yes. So these are just all slices and dices. Like the key to understand with this, I think, and I think with the three of us are all on the page here, is that like there's no one view that suddenly gives you like, you know, clear insight into this data center into the change. Right. Yeah. It's a bespoke set of changes that they worked collaboratively on across a large group of people over many months. It wasn't like they sat down and applied some algorithmic formula that we could reverse engineer. Sure. Yeah. And some of these do stand out like looking at Gloomspite and GITs. I mean, that one's higher, I would say, than it should be. I mean, just in general as kind of a general shot. And then looking at, oh, so we got Skaven. They're about right. Like a number that, you know, Lumina, they're pretty high. Cities is really low. Cities was a big winner, I would say. Daughters' disciples appropriately. They're pretty high. I mean, as you mentioned, these are not including some of the battle line if. Right. So there's that issue. But anyway, we don't spend 50 minutes on just this slide. But yeah, it's interesting. Yeah. There's a lot. We're going to get into the individual armies. What we'll see is the devil is truly in the details here. Right. Yeah. Like there's no doubt about that. Because some armies like took a relatively heavy percentage change. And yet actually I think, nah, they're fine. Right. Maybe because they always did have a battalion and they still ended up coming in with their average army build lower than what it would be at. Right. So there's, there's just, again, we really have got to get into them deets. Them deets is where it's at. Okay. Yeah. Good stuff. Let's keep going. All right. So we're going to start and order the forces of order. Of course. Everybody's favorite order. Yeah. They get to jump the line and not go alphabetically. Yep. Exactly. Yep. Okay. As I mentioned, don't forget, we are not going to talk about storm cast. We're not going to talk about swamp bogglers. I don't have soul of light grave lords in here either because there was no effective change. Right. It's, it's what's printed in the book. We already talked about it before. I know those are cross passions. I'm just explaining. Yes. We will talk about the rest of or of work lands. Okay. Here's my one note. Controversial statement. Hot take gentlemen. You ready? Ready. Hopefully. Points did not go up on average. For order. Period. Okay. Before we get into the image armies, there should, the average should have been closer to like 15 to 20%. And let me tell you why I say that. Because that should have been the average, average. Again, we're going to lie with that average, because that would have allowed a space for no change to have been way more impactful in their overall position in the game. So my, my honest belief here is that nothing should have went down. Okay. But the, a lot of problem units, if they're not going to write new war scrolls, should have just stayed exactly the same. And if everything else had moved up so much more, right, then they would have suddenly actually been really efficiently pointed. Does that make sense? Sure. What we're getting right now is because the change, because they kind of were like, Oh, we're worried about hurting everybody's feelings. We don't want people to get mad at us. Right? Yeah. Then because of that, they, you ended up, the things that didn't move, you don't feel the Delta you should. Does that make sense? If everything in the game had went up that 15 to 20% and you had a monster or a winner stay at its current points, that would be a huge change relative. Sure. Yeah. The efficiency on that, the efficiency breakdown of how much of your army you're still getting there would be so much different. Right? But they held back. They were afraid to cause the pain. And so because of that, because they choked up on the swing, never choke up. Like unless you're going for a bunt, you don't do that. And we're not. We needed a home run here. Okay. So what do you think that average, like what would you throw out as an average percent increase? What should that have been? That, paying that number? 17%. 17. Wow. Very inequitously distributed though. Like non-hero monsters should have been close to zero. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Okay. Elite type units screwed by coherency should have been in like the three to five percent. Mm-hmm. Right? And then you step from there. Mm-hmm. Okay. Like we all know who's kicking teeth and taking names here. Come on. What are we doing? Right? Like, I'm not. Am I wrong? Yeah. Go ahead, Jordan. Oh, sorry.  There's coherency. There's the hero chain, hero and monster changes and, and the points changes, the board size and obviously trying to balance all those things. Like, like the coherency was huge one, like those, you know, the three that upgrade to units of six got hammered so bad on big basis. Yep. What it's just not justified. Right. You know, is that because coherency and it wasn't reflected in the points, you know what I mean? There's just so many balls in the air that I think obviously again, I understand blue with situation and everything, but there were definitely some, you know, big losers, you know, from, from all this, that isn't necessarily because of the points, but because the other peripherals. Right. And the impact of those. So, yeah, I think they'll be, and the key here is everything basically should have went up again in the macro view. Right. So I see a lot of people when they're doing these takes like, oh, why didn't this thing go down? Homie, nothing should have went down. That's not what we're on about here. Okay. Wrong answer. Nothing almost should have went down if they did this right. There should be like two scrolls that went down. Okay. But they didn't. So because a few things went down in weird ways, suddenly like, suddenly it doesn't feel like it's distributed correctly. The people who are the worst offenders often don't feel like they got a hard enough hit. The people who are clearly innocent bystanders in this are 50 mil one inch reach three sixes. Yeah. Right. Or whatever. Again, now we don't have the FAQ yet. Maybe they'll all get two inch reach. Okay. Like if that happens, I'm back on board. You know, we're going to try up, right? We have a third part of this. I was hoping it was going to be out by now, but they didn't release it yet. I hear that they're waiting on translation. Apparently it's lost in translation. So maybe we can get Bill Murray on the phone and get that finished up. But, but you know, like that's the issue, right? We had these things. They don't feel as though they're distributed to our offenders. That's ultimately going to be, that's my headline. We should have like stepped on the gas harder, really shrunk armies and then use the places where we didn't increase to suddenly give the advantages where we needed to, to armies that were hurting. Right. Yeah. I really stuck on that point about the monsters, particularly hero monsters relative to 50 millimeter bases. You know, those men size three units that you can only go up to six. Yeah. I don't think we hammered that enough last week. Now that we're talking about events, that is a significant issue when it comes to points. You know, like you look at, I played a lot of Gorg Runners. It feels like you're running them in three now. I mean, they're, they're as long as that plus one damage is going to be maintained. You know, Gorg Runners are like the one exception. I would take six every time with Gorg Runners and not even care for a minute. You still want to, every time you're going to lose Gorg Runners. Yeah. And then with the second I lose five wounds, I'm back to old coherency. It's no issue, right? Yeah. Gorg Runners, I can still easily get four in no problem. They still punch way above their weight. Yeah. They have the two inch reach option. They have a two inch reach option. You can, there are ways, right? Yeah. The people who are like on 50 mils with a one inch reach only. Yeah. Yeah. Those are the people who, if they don't retcon those scrolls, but again, they could. They could. Yeah. I was looking at our listener. There's a fair number of them. Yeah. That it is certainly impactful. So anyway, yeah, I think that's a fair point about, but I mean, I guess what you're getting out of general, is that you're actually sort of set an initial baseline. If you look through the general sandbook 21, particularly at the battle tactics, boy, do they want you to run monsters with those, with those battle tactics. Yeah. There are so many ways that you're potentially getting an extra victory point. So total of three from a battle tactic set up to, and then there's other, you know, obviously many other things that are really incentivizing monsters, which makes sense with we're setting a go. Yeah. I mean, we'll, we'll see where we are in six months, but that's certainly like there's just so many variables right now that I would be a little surprised if, if generally are thinking right now, which says monsters, monsters, monsters isn't too far off six months from now. Yeah. And I almost feel like in the six month winter FAQ, they're going to have to like really go in and tinker with some stuff. So we'll see like that. It feels like that could end up being a big one. But again, we'll see. All right, gentlemen, let's get started. Okay.  I apologize everyone that this is so small. And this is only page one. Yeah. Okay. Because I could not in any way that kept the text even remotely legible. This is already way too small. Keep them all on an army. There are too many units in this army. Let me just say that. Oh yeah. Okay. Now, I do really, really wish that like whatever we've talked before about what should happen with cities. We'll see what happens when we get our new Don Bringer Crusades book. If that happens, cities to electric blue, Don Bringer Crusades happen. Yeah. My solemn wish. And I know I'm probably alone here, but hey, I have a city's army. So I'm going to go ahead and say I'm okay to say this. Maybe you don't feel that way is that they would just collapse these units down into into single units that could be represented by multiple models. They'll never do it. They'll never do it because it becomes very hard for them to tell them, tell people what to buy. But I wish they would.  It's just like, Oh, the different racial shirts are together now. And it's fine. We're all happy. Anyways, Yeah, that would be cool.  So I'm going to cut. I'll dip back and forth between the two pages. But here out of the city's changes, the ones that jumped out to me. Okay. Our one, the, uh, our free guild general on Griffin going down 15 points, which is great, great hero monster there with a good speed and a relatively nice hitting power, him dropping like leader hero monsters are for real in this edition. I'm three games deep now at this point. And let me tell you they are for real. Yeah. That was one of the things we talked about last week.  Yeah. In this edition potentially, particularly if that, that the three plus baseline save.  But the point being that you can potentially stack, save to offset rent to potentially go down to two up. And then God forbid, if you've got a way to rural wants to save somehow. Oh yeah. And then yeah, anything that has, I feel like the defensive ability when you're a hero monster of roar, which is just as much defensive as anything else, because then you stop them from buffing their armor or getting plus one to hit you. Right. Yeah. Roar has been like very thorough list right now based on three games as well that I've played at 2k. It's maybe number one on the list in terms of impact or anything in general. Yeah. That turns off issue and receive commands like Jim and it's new Jim and it's. Yeah. But I was going to say at last point that the baseline of rent, I feel like maybe it's gone up from say negative one. You're really looking for negative two now. I feel like. Sure. With a lot of worse girls. And if you can get minus three rents, you're you're really, really didn't work. But yeah. Jordan, was there anything in cities? By the way, cities average gain overall was 3.35%. Quick note on the average gain item here on my charts. That will not be inclusive of endless spell changes. So because endless spells went all over the place and were completely rewritten obviously. So the average there is not inclusive of endless spells. Obviously city doesn't have any, but you know, it's relevant. Cities did lose an allegiance ability. We should note that. Right. I've noted here that finally the age of the wild writer has come as they went down 10 points. Yeah. There we go. I'm sure. I mean the wanderers came out great here. Like, yeah. Them eternal guard sisters of the thorn with a potential double overwatch didn't change in points. Sure. Yeah. Let's see how that goes with the fact that absolutely right now. Yeah. So yeah. So yeah, I mean the, a lot of the shooting, like I don't know what dark shards did or who they made angry, but dark shards went up 15 points. I think in general, this is one of those armies where the shooting people all went up to some degree and there is a lot of shooting units. They all are in like the 10 to 15 point range. Yeah. Outriders, pistoliers, copters and bombers and iron drakes, you know, went up, stuff like that. I'm shocked that iron drakes only went up 10, but a lot of other things, but like dark shards went up 15, like that's... Right. They can get minus two rent, right? Yeah. Or potentially minus three rent, because you can stack the rune lord I believe. I was thinking that you could stack it, but anyway, I didn't get minus two rent. Yeah. I don't, you can only do the prayer once now. You can't, you just can't repeat the prayers. But yes, they can be at minus two rent very easily. Yeah. Rune lord can't repeat any of your prayers. Champ prayers, right. Can't repeat it. Okay. Cool. Yeah. Yeah. That was surprising. Absolutely. A friend of mine was talking about iron breakers. They're base three up save. Still pretty cheap. Yeah. 115. I mean, yeah. Get them on a two up save. Pretty, pretty good anvil there. That seems fairly efficient at two wounds each. They are two wounds each, right? Iron breakers. Yeah. They're one with each. Oh, they're one with each. Okay. Yeah. I mean, your Dwarven stuff has often been just fine. Like it, it can, it can hold its own. It's often been the backbone. Like, uh, like iron drakes getting a 10 point increase. Now obviously two things impacted cities here. Right. Before we get into that, well, I'm actually going to put a pause myself. Any other units you guys want to call out?  Most of it was pretty in the battle. Honestly. And the fact there's so many things going down. The only other one I wanted to touch on real quick was how did the anointed on Phoenix's go down? Did they go down? Oh my God. That's very surprising, especially, you know, the monster hero combo being so strong. And those were two of the, you know, feature premier units in cities already. Yep. So I think we're to see a few more of them. You're talking like your frost art Phoenix guy four up after save. Neg one to wound. Uh, you know, decent enough damage, good survivability. Right. It's like, I don't, I, this guy's a mystery to me as to why you went down. Uh, because I just like wound penalties are not that common. And putting somebody under neg one to wound when there's so many ways now to put somebody into neg one to hit. And that guy is just an incredible pinning unit and continues to be like, you know, the fact that he can now also hero action and monster action, the fact that, you know, once a game, he can, he can have his best day ever and sail on in there and just really tilt the numbers. Right. Right. Yeah. Similar with a special hook on, on battle mage, uh, with battle mage. Yeah. Didn't move at all to 80 still. That's, that's a great buy still. Hallow hearts, you know, cogs. They're going to be probably doing pretty well. Uh, let's see. I don't know if that saw a lot of play in 2.0. The dreadlord of black dragon, but. Yeah. I mean, he, he went down 10 points. So that's cool. Yeah. No, is the answer. S'more. S'moregan is apparently thinking about spamming dark writers. So anything that's S'moregan is, is looking to do. Definitely. Yeah. I don't know, man. I saw his night runner and got a runner list and I've run that list. He's got. And, um, I'm not sure about it, but hey, he's probably a better player than me. So we'll see. Yeah. Um, I had a bunch of notes here, but I don't know if then she want to go and add some notes. Yeah. Let's, let's get to some summary on cities. So it is like my summation of cities is they got, they basically skated. Okay. Um, they, and they are a big, big, like the biggest army in the game by just count of units, not counting loco because that's not real. Yeah. Um, but they are a big mixed arms force with plenty of shooting, different heavy armor options, cavalry, mobility, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. It's very hard for this army not to be part of the conversation. Sure. Right. Cities is much like Skaven as we'll see later. Cities just has a lot of different tools because they have so many freaking scrolls. Right. And several other powerful heroes went down. We mentioned both the phoenix and the general and Griffin, both of whom I think are fantastic. Mm hmm. Uh, the increases to most of the base troops were small. Right. And the biggest hit to the faction was there's two changes. I was going to talk about those two things that happen. One, they lost a, they lost a faction ability. I mean, I'm sure to get rewritten in the FAQ in some way. I don't know. But they had the ability to always, um, count like the way that they worked with realm. Oh, the, yeah, the realm spells. Yeah. The realm spells right there. Yeah, right. Yeah. They basically always got the enhanced effect. Right. Mm hmm. That's gone now because there are no realm effects on endless spells anymore. So they, they lost that. Yeah.  Yeah. Okay. It was just that, that is the dumbest effect that we all tolerated. That should have been retconned five minutes after it got printed. Yeah. Like it just should have been. Okay. And now you can only take one unit with you. So great. Yeah. Great health of the game change. Yeah. I mean, just like, look, teleporting is already really powerful. And the fact that you could usually have that guy out of range, out of unbind range. So, you know, barring like salon or something. You could just be like, Boop. There's a bridge. Boop. My army is way over on the other side of the board. Boop. We're all shooting you. Blazing. Iron Drake. Just woo woo. Yeah. No. No. Iron Drake is still an amazing value at 160. That's, I mean, like, I do not know the universe where they thought 10 points is the appropriate increase on those guys. They're fantastic. Yeah. So. Yeah. So, a few other high level, one of our local guys play cities, Travis Boyson. So Travis said a few thoughts. Yeah. I mentioned this, this, this spell loss. General on Griffin. Yeah. Going down, especially in tip-a-side, I thought, with the fight first. That's a good shout. Yeah. We talked about the fact on handgunners, sisters of the watch in terms of leash held, double tapping. Hopefully that's not going to be a thing.  We're singing a little bit of that with the Chalice Spray. And, you know, maybe with some of these new fans that might, that's probably still going to be a thing. A visual X-spray taking away the save. You know, we talked a lot about how we might see a lot of 2 plus save in the game now. So I'm sure that's still going to be a very hot spell. Spell portal is still relevant. So check that through a spell portal. Well, you have a different endless spell to get your vitriol X-spray person around now as well. Because don't forget, launch and the soul seeker changed. And he just teleports wizards around now. He teleports them quite far. Oh, right. Yeah. 100%. Yeah, that's good. Hammer Hall also has a lot of CP generation. Let's see. He was mentioning dwarf wizards or Star Drake wizards in Hall of Heart. That might be fun. Yeah, with the artifact. Yeah, the arcane tone. Yeah. Look, I'm always excited. In any addition, in any addition, there is going to be a thing that everybody simply says. And also, okay. So in the last edition, it was, well, it's a seven inch charge, but it's five inches with cogs. Right. Every time. So always in our minds, in our happy path, perfect, idyllic minds, we always had cogs on the table. Right? Always. Every time. 100%. Okay. Now it's going to be Flaming Weapon and the Spell Book. That's it. It's like those two things. It's going to be like, oh, plus one damage with Flaming Weapon. Oh, I can blah, blah, blah with the arcane tone. Like that's not me bagging on you, Jordan. I'm just getting that out of the way now. I'm going to say it a million times because every time I see it, right? It's always like, I'm just going to be a wizard. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Everybody can. That's the thing now. It's going to be popular. Oh, yeah. That even the five up our ward artifact is like, you're going to see that at every other army. It's back. Yeah. We all got a word again. I'm excited. In the monster hero edition, I think it's a great time to suddenly add a five up in volume to people who are five up wards. Yeah. Yeah. Good. Jordan, anything else on cities? No, like you said, it's like you could point out so many units that didn't change, but that's the whole army. So in the context of within cities, not super impactful, but it's really compared to everything else, you know, the changes, like you say, where they benefit. Did everything else increase enough? Who knows? But no, I think, I think we pretty much did everything. I was curious about like war hydras. Which were horrible in 2.0 and Corridus. I don't check that. I mean, the war scrolls of those things in forever. But are those a little more turned on now that they're monsters? They could have been if we would have pushed the rest of the points up like I described. That's a perfect example of what I was talking about earlier. If we hadn't choked up on the swing. Okay. If we had actually brought the points and they came up by an average of like 17 or 18 percent and they still sat at where they did. Right. And they didn't change again. The average in any individual, right? Right. Like the average amount of money that the people have in the United States, does it really matter if you're broke at the moment? Right. That's the difference. Right. Like then it probably would have been enough to make them interesting. As it is, there's too many good hero monsters. Why would I? Yeah, that's exactly. Yeah. You're going to, you're going to fill their slots with the frost arts and general. Yeah. Yeah. Like there's too many good options or even not monster, still great heroes like you're, you know, obviously the Huracanum's value went down slightly because the plus one to hit now can't stack anymore. But also did it because plus one to hit is still really, really good. It saves you command points. Exactly. And now I can just blow my command point all the time in combat for plus one to save and have both which feels good. Yeah. Feels good. Yeah. Orange whip. Orange whip. Orange whip. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I'm trying to get my Nash con list together. It's going to take, like, and I'm deciding between cities and giants. I have my city's display board all made. I never got to take the city's display board I made to a tournament. I really want to take it. So I tried to rebuild. You see that thing Jordan? The thing was ridiculous. You ever see that? I did. Yeah. Yeah. My aircraft carrier. I'm probably going to bring that. Giants are so tempting though for reasons. We'll talk about later. Anyways. So I rebuilt my city's list, right? To see how much can I do what I wanted to do? It's Tempest Islist. And you know what the answer was? Everything. Nothing changed. It was like, this is fine. That was great. You know, I think, I don't know, maybe I, maybe I got rid of one gyrocopter or something like that. Like in the whole, the whole thing. So I was like, yeah, okay, fine. I had muddy gyrocopters. So, oh no. Yeah. All right. Yep. They're good cities. Y'all. Okay. Daughters of Cain. Why did this slide? Why is this like this? Why are you like this? Sorry, everybody. I don't know why that was like so tiny or offscreen. Okay. Daughters of Cain. Okay. Uh, they took a big hit. Big moves. But they are coming from a very under-costed place. What were we at? 21% average? Okay. Yeah. 20.51 if you're not rounding. Okay. So, what was the average? Again, not counting the endless spells. Okay. So, they basically, I'm still not sure they got the points increased they need. I'm just going to throw it out there. Unpopular opinion. They came up to probably what they should have in 2.0. And they, I don't think they got near where they needed to be in 3.0. Now, that doesn't mean I think every unit should have moved. I think some, they probably got to the right place. Like sisters and witch elves are probably fine. Stop. You're good. Like we didn't need to go any higher on those. Okay. Yeah. But there are things like the hag queen on cauldron, still an incredible unit. Even up 35 points wasn't enough. That thing used to be 2.70 before it dropped. Yeah. Okay. That was one, that was one we had a difference of opinion on when we, the day after or whatever, we went through the book and came up with our point values. And I was looking back and yeah, you were, you were higher on that one than I, I was, I think I was 2.60. You were like 2.80, 2.90. But anyway. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, it's just, it's just too cheap for what it does. It's a very effective thing. Right? And I mean, look, the reason a lot of these numbers feel so big. I mean, and obviously Morgwaith is hilarious. Like, you know, she's, she is tied for the highest points increase in the game, but she is, but that's kind of a lie because she's actually multiple models and whatever, whatever. And I don't care. I'm not going to talk about Morgwaith. She never should have been 80.  Right. Obviously. Right. When I look at the Hag Queen, she should, like the Hag Queen on Caldron should have went back to at minimum what it was before they got their ridiculous decrease. Okay. To stay in parity with all the other increases in the game. Solar Queen's probably fine. She's probably in the right place. Like 300 is probably fine. 300. Yeah. Yeah, that's fine. Right. You know, like, blood stalkers went up a lot. Good. Probably fine. They needed to. They're up. They are a pox on the game. I think, I think daughters is a great example with that of them targeting the right units with the heavier points changes. Now again, like you say, some could be heavier, even rathy potentially with how, how did she is especially with the new stuff. But I think, you know, the blood soccer change and actually also impacted just by the coherency.  So right. The double tapping is less effective. I think that's a good example of, you know, another tempering of, you know, the crazy wildest things that we all hated. Sure. And yeah, you know, there's been systematic changes of like that. I see Oliver Dempsey. I sense your daughter's a game player. Everybody, one of the things that's going to come up is everybody wants your own army. Any points increases are always never, it's fine. It should have never been anymore. And it should probably be less when it's something you still want, when it's something you love, right? And that's not, by the way, Oliver, I'm not bagging on you. Like that's just our natural inclination. When we know it, when we love it, when we're that close to it, it's hard to like, you know, suddenly rip it away and push it way up. Right. So I get it. Can we talk about the fact that Marathi is a ridiculous rock bottom pricing deal at 660? Like that is insane to me. It is insane to me that she's 660 when we've got a Lario running around a 745. You're about a hundred points off on that. Okay. So you think, what are you actually, do you think it should be 760? She should be over 700. I don't know. Okay. Okay. What do you think, Jordan? I would agree at least 700. I mean, the only issue she had before is sometimes there is inconsistency with her output. Sure. And that's, that's largely dawn with plus one hit. You know, right? I mean, they already did re-roll ones a lot of the time. So she's going to be, you know, twos and twos re-roll and ones on both at times. So she's, but they went up huge value, I think, and not reflected enough in the points. Hmm. So a lot of thoughts. Obviously, I played a lot of daughters over the last year.  If you're going to competitive daughters, you're still starting your list with 15 snake bows now and Marathi. Sure. So that hasn't changed.  If I'm trying to go 50, what is a daughter's list? Well, and some kind of thing that enables them to battle line. So you can do that.  But yeah, sure. Yeah. Medusa or Melisai, who I was undervaluing, I think originally that commandability is quite nice. In terms of what it opens up with the ability to do 2d6 run and or charge, you know, shoot with the snake bows charged with the melee, just that, that threat range is incredible on that. But yeah, so quickly writing a list just, I mean, just give people a sense like, okay, so Marathi, Melisai, or is it the same point cause Medusa? It's five points off. So let's go. Melisai iron scale. Okay. And then we've got a hat queen for say catechism. Sure. And we've got, let's see. Marathi had Melisai iron scale. That's about it. This is what I had on heroes. Yeah. Four heroes. Marathi counting us two. And then 15 snake bows, 10 blood sisters, unit of 10. They've got two inch reach. So that works. Sure. I think it's still really, really good unit. Minus one rend, they do mortal wounds. You can get a minus two rend, mine raises, et cetera. Really, really good unit. Good, good point cost still. 10 wood shells to fill out your battle line. 25 millimeter. So you can screen them out decently. You know, 25 right by each other. Pretty good footprints for screen. Unit of shadow stalkers. So unit of nine, you got a little teleport, not as good screening anymore, but still a decent teleport screen because they're, they're 28.5 millimeter basis, I think. So you can't, you can't do what you'd like with them, but, but still pretty good. And then 90 points for life takers, five life takers. So that's a hundred, well, hundred, quote unquote, 101 wounds. Obviously that's not what it is, but sure. And so how does that feel to you guys? So you got five life takers, nine unit of shadow stalkers, 10 blood sisters, 15 snake bows, 10 witch elves, Marathi, mellicide iron scale. Really to fit it in, you have to take the mellicide because it is exactly, I think on the nose. And then the hag with catechism. Feels like a pretty solid army. Feels like an army I wish I could build. I don't think that feels, I mean, I don't think that necessarily, like that feels strong. I think that's the top tier army. It doesn't feel too out of balance to me. I agree that Marathi should be a little more. Yeah, let me, I mean, the ultimate secret here is it doesn't actually matter that much. Points aren't usually what break armies, what breaks balance. Like we over invest in what we think points can do in this game. And that's actually not what makes things win most of the time. Okay. Like certain units. Yes. Points have determined their viability or not, right? Are they too efficient? But usually things went through, through synergy and allegiance abilities that are sort of broken. And like what's turning that into a powerhouse isn't really the points. Yeah, you could point them in a way that made them like truly insane or completely unplayable. Of course that's true. Sure. Right. But like when you look at what makes things really broken, it's the ability to use your pieces in ways that they just shouldn't otherwise perform where you're breaking the rules in like a horrendous way. So for example, bloodstalkers shooting twice around. I mean, that's right. That's applying that mortal wound pressure twice around. Right. Right there. Because yeah, I mean right now, if you're going to tournament this weekend, you're going to see Daughters of Cain, you know, 80 player tournament. You're going to see Daughters of Cain. You're going to see 50 sync blows, Marathi. You need ideally a way to turn off Marathi's ability to use commands. So like you need geminids or I haven't gone through and looked at what are all of our options right now. But yeah, I mean that's, I think that's going to be huge in a number of instances and starting with Daughters of Cain to reduce what they can do. If you've got a way to do it. Yeah, I don't Jordan. Do you have any guys kind of get a baseline and what you guys think in terms of like, well, I'm going to jump to our impact page. And as you can see here, Marathi. So at any rate, Jordan hit me. What do you, what do you got? I think like Tyler said, it's like the point changes. Like when you invest so heavily in that hammer of 15 bows, it does impact the rest of your army with all the, across the board changes.  But really we are, this army is it being impacted from losing two units, basically one to two units with their lists. Like, I mean, just those 15 steak bows is 90 points difference. So that's, that's a unit there and Marathi's, you know, 60 could have been a hundred. But, but that's my opinion Jordan, you're manual, you're losing your screens. Cause I think often you would see Daughters of Cain list, you need to build in multiple screens. Yeah. Cause you got to, you got to keep those blessers to save. You got to keep those snake bows safe. And yeah, so you'd have, you'd have multiple chap screens for that. Exactly. So it, the, the points changes, don't necessarily change their output that, but they make them take bigger risks for overinvesting in that. So like I said, not having screens, not having necessarily enough bodies on objectives or the combat bodies to push other units off of objectives. Yeah. So, so I think that's the good part of this is seeing, you know, the 30 points, obviously again, targeting an important shooting unit. When you overvest in something like that, I think that this is a good, again, a good example of them targeting the right units. Yeah. Again, so it's like you're, you're risking something now to commit to that. And I think that's a good point for the game to be where you can't have it all and be safe. Yeah. The 30 points increase is fully justified. I'm listening both. Yeah. Yeah. And so people ask, I have here on my notes, Marathi. Oh, Donors can impacts. My subheading is they're fine. I think they have. Despite that increase, it's coming from a horrendously undercosted place. So they were already subsidized basically. They had, they had the GW subsidy fueling their, their power. So all we did is remove that subsidy to a point. So Marathi is still the second best hero in the entire game at 660 and a steal. That's, I, I stand behind that multiple people ask who is the first best hero. And Hey, whoa, already called it. Cause obviously it's the lower seeker or as he said, the score seeker like unquestionably the undoubted king of the ring. That title is going to be real hard to strip out of his control. He is point four point the best hero in the game. We'll talk about when we get to LRL because he's even better now barring some last minute change. Yeah. Please GW. Don't fix this before it's too late. Oh, I can't wait. I can't wait. All right. Anybody doesn't know that they've right now it does not have the unique tag. So you can take multiple Lord seeker's just everybody's reference. Yeah. They're coming soon. Yeah. And speaking to Oliver who mentioned the prayer limitation.  Right. It just like it happened with the book and I think it continues to remain like now it's officially sort of in the system in 3.0. I think it remains the biggest challenge. Yep. I also think canary lifetakers at like 90 points or whatever there because they basically didn't go up or they went five points. Something I don't remember. Pretty low are still 10 points. Yeah. Incredible. They are great. Great screens again. So good. Yeah. Screens, objective grabbers and murder machines if buffed appropriately. Like I'm turn off on the shell. Potentially. Yep. Send the man. Yeah. You before you get in the unit you need to like get in there. Right. They just jump on over. Yeah. Get on in there. Yeah. And then just float away from me. What's up? Bye. You know, like they're just they're so good. They're so good. I just like. Yeah. So good. Yeah. Absolutely. I love it. Yeah. The avatar are really high on the avatar. I played him a little bit in Hagnar and obviously I mean as we all know, not as good outside of Hagnar because of the prayer limitation. You don't really have a good way to turn it on and do everything else you need with prayers outside of Hagnar. You know, the mark that you got to be under, it's a four plus. Best number of wounds in the game right now. Yeah. Four plus base saves. That's really good.  It's a very small base hit. It's got that minus two rend. You got ways you can prove it's, you know, as usual, we're going to mention the commands all the time. Plus one hit plus one. Plus one save. Yeah.  But yeah, I love that. I think it only went up five points. I believe. Yeah. It's, it's really, yeah. When a five points, I think that's really going to value. Yeah. And, you know, command points are so impactful to this game. Overall, like you're always thirsty for them. Like we're all thirsty, thirsty boys now for, for command points.  And if the avatars, you know, near you or a three up, if you're on mystic terrain with the avatar, like, I mean it's just like a given that's optimism bias certainly. But nonetheless, it's a command point, you know, every, every time you're playing like it's just more. And there's, and certainly that plus one is doing a lot of other things too. Right. Turning on your prayers. Yeah. Absolutely. Heart of fury took a big jump down 25 points off 80 to 55. I can't remember what that is. The invocation number is on that one to get it off. I'd have to check that out. I'm just thinking like in terms of how easy it would be to remove, I know you've got to roll for to stay on the board, but that's, it seems a little more attractive now. I didn't like it at 80 points. It's just too random. That's going to go away. But sure. I'm a little more shouldn't know. All right. Next up. Oh my gosh. All my, all my things got real funky here and I don't know why. That's fine. That's fine. We'll fix it. We'll fix it. All right. Fire slayers. One of the most hit factions in the new edition. That is my argument. Okay. Now I say that with the understanding that this army had an average gain of half a percent. Yep. Almost no change. But that is a lie. Because part of that number is being pulled down by Fajul Grimnir and the chosen axis with their like 50 point drop. Right. That's doing a lot of work. Okay. The key here is Hearth Guard berserkers only went up a tiny amount, but they got hit by now you can only have up to, you got to have a Rune Father and even then you can only take them to 15. Right. A lot of things in this army are on 32 mil bases. Your basic Volkites have a one inch reach. They can't stack their saves anymore. Like I don't even care about any of these points. Like Volkites going up 20. The Rune Father and Magma Drawth. These Magma Drawth people going up 25. You know, whatever, whatever. Right. The Grimnirath berserker going up 20 and then the Doomseeker going down five is like the funniest thing to me because they just re-put out those new scrolls and then immediately shot their points apart. I'm jumping straight to the fire slayer things here, which might my subheading for this is just ouch. Because fire slayers had almost, they came out almost even on points if you look at the average, but that's a lie. They're way higher when you look at actually building your units out of Hearthgard and Volkites and things like that. They lost their key battalion, which was a crutch for the whole army. Right. Hearthgard and the cap to save bonus greatly impairs the unit because now they're just, they used to just like gain plus a million to saves. Right. Yep. They are bad in the new coherency roles. Okay. Yeah. And that should say they had, I love when I miss these guys. At any rate, my only answer is I hope we like shooting fire slayers. Get out those shooters. Yeah, or Hearthgard. Yeah, they're definitely because they get the extra damage against monsters. Yeah. Yeah. So yeah. Jordan, what's your take on fire slayers? I think, again, they just got gimped by the core stuff, but what do you think? Exactly. The peripherals, the points, they're fine. They don't care, right? It's small enough changes that it's not hugely impactful. But yeah, this is a great example like, like you're saying of all those peripheral things really punishing these guys. And again, that battalion, like we, you saw that in every fire slayers list. That was where you started. So that's obviously, I think this is one of those armies where to see drop off a ton from addition to addition in terms of the representation at events. And it was already very, very, very low. Yeah. Yeah. It's getting helped a little bit more like 2.0, which obviously we didn't get to play much at tournaments, especially in the States. We had the highest average number of objectives. Now we've gone down a fair amount. Right. Like you look at the GHB, yeah, we're back to a lot at fours, sort of four generally. And so, I mean, that could help them a little bit. Hearthgard, they both, I was looking at both of their broad axes and pull axes. Those are, they are both two inch reach. Yeah, they are.  But I was confused. It's the little fights that are really suffering from the one inch, because they have the little axes. Yeah. Now, so I know always strike first in the Italian, which one was the Hermdar? Double activation came from the Lord's of Lodge, right? And Hermdar is the ASF. I think that's right. Yeah. Okay. All right. So losing double activation. Yeah, that's definitely a big deal. It's still only strike first. Not too bad. Well, not to mention even ASF is less impactful now, honestly, because of the way they actually stacked and changed the combat sequencing in a smart way. Yeah. Because it used to be that like if they jumped you, you could be like, no, I can't use my buffs. I'm just dead. Right. But now people can respond by using their buffs. Right. Right. They can, you know, it's like Earth Guard are going to roar at them. So unless there's a Magma Draw then they're roaring at them or something, right? They can still, they still have a chance to throw on their plus one save or put on any other command abilities or tilt shields or, you know, do whatever they need to do that said at the start of the combat phase you can. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So do we think that Magma Draws have been turned on enough? I mean, I'm looking at their war scroll. It's mostly minus one rend like, you know, the Rune Father. He's got three attacks, three and threes. Three damage on it, but it's only minus one rend. And again, I worry particularly with hero monsters, mostly operating around minus one rend that may not get the job done.  You know, they're not great at killing big units, but maybe a little bit with some MSU. I think Magma Draws are where a lot of people will go. Maybe. And like, I think, was it Lofnir is the, is the, is that the Magma Draws focus? Sounds right. Let's say it is. I don't know. You know, if these guys show up in a combined book, then the world changes. Sure. If we end up with Dwarven Warclans, then, you know, the world suddenly changes, right? So it's all about Grungy. What's Grungy doing? He's back. What's he going to do? Yeah, absolutely. So. Yeah, they definitely took a big hit. It seems like. I know Tom was not too keen. No, I mean, honestly, they've always struggled like they were always, and they've always been this weird combination of very hard. It's always been this weird combination of a very hard army to win five games with. And. And a really unfun army to play against. Right? They weren't ruling the tournament scene. Right? Yeah. I mean, it's not, I'm not saying they never took places. They were there. They showed up in Top 10s, right? I was checking out Lothnir commandability torn a magma in the shooting phase. Pick an enemy within 12 of Lothnir Priest. And to the end of that phase, I want to hit moon rolls for attacks made by magma pikes. That target that enemy unit. So that's pretty interesting. But yeah, not seeing a whole lot else here. Yeah, I mean, it's also, we'll see where it goes. Maybe, maybe magmos and shooters. Right? Maybe, maybe the new thing is, is, is magma shooters. That's the new fire slayers. And it could work. You got, you got decent cheapish monster heroes. Cheapish. They are relatively tough. Like they're, they're not horrible. Don't get me wrong. And they do kick back damage pretty good with like their little blood spur Mortal Wounds nonsense. Yeah, definitely. And you've, you've got that combined with the shooters who do extra damage to monsters. We could see. We could see. That's why my last, my final point was shooting fire slayers. Could be. Yeah. I don't, I wouldn't ever like rule these guys out yet. Like they do have, still have some great tools, right? Like they're tiny, they're two wounds, a lot of stuff. Yeah. They have awesome Mortal Wound output. Right. In, in a edition where Mortal Wound output just went up in value. Oh yeah. And like, like you said, Tyler with, with objectives, they're being less of them on average. Yeah. That's to their advantage as is the smaller table sizes. So, well, they did have some things that affect the, you know, their army.  And the magma draws didn't go up too much, which is understandable. Yeah. Yeah. So, I mean, relative to the baseline now, they don't look too bad. 25 room father, 275 to 40 room son. Yeah. Yeah. It's going to be, I'm excited to see. Yeah. It'd be nice to see them on the table and some people trying out some different things because God knows we don't need any more Hearthgard in our lives. Yeah. We'll see where it goes. Heo combined book. Okay. I'm just, I guess I just space these hoping the thing was going to be bigger than it was. Sorry everybody. Good thing we don't have any deep Ken players here. We probably skip this faction. I mean, is there anything to talk about with deep Ken other than the following two things? One of the strong, my answer was one of the strongest factions basically skates. I think they're going to be just fine. They've survived everything. More Starguard up 25 points at 195. They're still a good deal.  Oh my gosh. It was crazy good. Yeah. It was the same points and had the same output of Sips eels, but almost more consistent plus all the other buffs plus a monster that only breathed half damage. Yeah. It's great. It was hilarious watching some of your battle reports.  Like, and, you know, giving you the two of Ignore rend on the Eastland, making you basically invulnerable except the mortal wounds in your first turn. And yeah, the thing was just a crazy good piece. Like, yeah. And the shooting, it's got eight shots at rend one. Yeah. Yeah. It's like, my honest answer is IDK has been running on a 1.0 book for the entirety of 2.0 and being fine. Like it's been a part of the conversation, a gatekeeper, competitive force. It got boosted up recently in a big way through the the broken realm series. And I think that overall they're, they're fine. Like, it's fine. Alopecs is still one of the best abilities in the game. Hitting people with an Unleashed Hell Alopec shot to to stop them from piling in if they just land a charge. Like if they just get into you and then you like, you know their role because they finished their charge when you activate Unleashed Hell.  Oh yeah. Sure. It happens all the time, right? Right. And the fact that they can now just be like, and net you on the way in and just be like, well I guess one of your dudes is going to fight and have fun and then I'll pile into you and do damage. That sounds like a good time.  I have underlined Vulturnus got cheaper. This is that's somehow true. I think it's just because of the commandability probably where they can't stop it anymore. I understand the that he can't do the thing he should have never been able to do in the first place anymore. He still has a very powerful piece. Yeah. So I assumed it's chill dark and slip mount traits will still be able to be given to the heroes. So my only push back against Volteranos is I totally agree I like the change of you can't stack command abilities. I think that's again health of the game as a DeepKin player I think that's a good thing. The caveat though is is DeepKin's command abilities again they can only be used one turn out of five. Sure. So so that's a hugely worse than every other plus one attack between him and the King obviously his does three units which is better but I'd rather one plus one attack to one unit every turn. A hundred percent. Yeah. So that's yeah. Yeah. Right now I know Volteranos as per the reading right now he cannot get mount traits anymore because the current wording is like no unique characters can basically take anything and there's a lot of discussion going on about what the heck that even means and like do they get spell lures and blah blah blah blah blah. I assume it's going to be ruled that as per usual they couldn't take the enhancements they couldn't take before like you can't give them artifacts and command traits and stuff like that and they will re-instantiate their ability to take mount traits and spell lures. I'm assuming that's the case if he loses his void shield darkness okay. So Jordan you've obviously played IK a lot over the years you've done really well with them. What are your kind of overall thoughts and then what do you think a competitive list looks like now. So a couple things obviously I think as Vince said the whole book is wide open with broken realms. So Vince you on the right you mentioned or kind of give an example of a good deep can list of Volteranos turtle and one or both there's just like the meme thing I found so but half these are just fun art and half of them are fun memes this is a fun presentation to build because I just went through looking for army memes and I found this meme and I was like well this is what's going on this page okay go ahead I'm sorry. So I think though this book went from with broken realms went from the worst internal parody to potentially the best internal parody. There's like one or two units that you don't really consider low tan and soul or the Narmardy Reavers but like I literally Vince I saw this I did I did trigger when people call my army eels but looking at this I'm like I can build a very like top tier competitive I did that deep can list without any of these four units like no volt and the Volte turtle or either guard you can build a like so it's obviously a great strength of faction but yeah just an example of like they're they're still good and they are way more diverse than they were before. Yeah since broken realms I mean this is a bit of a joke obviously the memes are fun but yes I agree like when you look at now what Alepexes can do as already mentioned right I think they're you know they're so strong I think when you look at even maybe the whatever the avatars whatever they are mr. floating wave guy both of them I think you know could have some play now like there's that the turtle is obviously fantastic like there's stuff here probably your things that aren't as much in the conversation are the Narmardy thralls the foot melee guys and like low tan or something I'm not sure Reavers don't become an interesting option in the new edition let me just say that true trip shotting on an Unleash L seems like actually a pretty interesting possibility so yeah cool do you think that double again what would be your sense of if you're trying to go 50 this weekend what are we looking at like double turtle is that very high is that very high up there now no I think there's there's two builds to be honest there's and similar to what there was in 2.0 there's you know the you'll spam build or whatever you want to call it but there's also I mean you can literally fit deep in in one drop now and you if you're taking faulty you're not worried about that second enhancement anyways so that's very very dangerous but you I think the turtle actually while it you know with 3.0 it did go up in value it also went down because that plus one save you don't necessarily need it and it doesn't stack anymore so I don't think we'll see the turtle with the defensive eels as much anymore because the defense of yours can already get cover for free one or two turns they can land in cover they can also do plus one save when they really need it just from the command ability that they're a command unit so they don't need the turtle anymore if you're running defensive eels but seeing that they're having the turtle with offensive eels now purely offensive eels like now now they're all plus one save so they don't have three up and they do the all-out defense to ignore one rent yeah so it basically puts the turtle puts offensive eels nearly on the same level as defensive eels from a defensive standpoint interesting so yeah lots obviously the exciting thing about the new edition right so many things opened up and change yeah yeah as as always still seems like they're gonna be quite competitive I absolutely think they will be there they're still they still are and probably you know basically always will be part of the conversation and there's even you know rumors that they're gonna get a new book at some point here pretty soon I think that's probably right you know if you think about kind of what's going on there just given how long they've been running on the same book right yeah I should point out that this is an army with priests right yes there is a priest in this army which means that you can use curse okay and curse is the thing that when you curse a unit every six to hit that unit becomes a mortal wound yeah and reverse plus curse equals a crap ton of damage if they're trip-shotting hmm I used curse over the weekend in one of my games because I played a scaven army I cursed a laryl and clan rats exploded her normal clan rats and they just went okay now you die and she just blew up wow so you know I'm just saying curse is a pretty good prayer she exploded okay deep sorry the deep can priest is actually really interesting because deep can priests use 2d6 so how does that affect their ability to cast those prayers I assume we'll know in the FAQ but they are a priest so they can gain a prayer Laura and there you go we'll see oh and other thing they also got cities is now I don't know there's anything you'd actually take but that did happen you take cities here's now so that's mm-hmm which is just a lot like somebody's gonna figure out some ridiculous thing from cities to pull it here because cities has a thousand more scrolls so sure there you go all right Coradron overlords KO my summation here is shooting got more expensive so they got more expensive hmm their average gain was 7.65 they almost hit the exact average okay of the of the of the overall game I guess is what I would say where that was mainly felt was in things like the Andron rigors which went up 20 points the gun hauler which went up 25 you feel that now I personally again this is another army that had a sort of inexplicable point drop happened a little while back that they probably didn't fully need yeah and most of what we've done here is back out some of those changes right yeah I want to go back and look I didn't have didn't get the time to do it go back and look at the prior point values you can try to do it here on the fly let's see so what is the so forget yeah forget went back to exactly what it was 250 so did the iron because it was 490 before I collect like 510 in the battle tone oh but yeah okay let's see chemist yep exactly navigator five points off arco nine ten points off 90 instead of 100 now in GSB 21 so yeah it looks like a lot of these just exactly went back to the prior GHB or sorry that the KO 19 point values yep I mean it basically just reset them to where they were for the most part you know and fine like it's an all shooting army like okay let's let's get into the impacts for KO because we need to get right into it right yeah I think the core changes impact them more than any points this is another one of those armies right just I don't I honestly don't think the points are what the conversation is here I think the points for them are basically irrelevant yes they had some moves yes a couple of them might be on the on the margin you know impactful but to me smaller boards coherency for rigors and wardens the loss of the original triumphs and some of the GHB strats and tactics will work against them okay yep they don't have a lot of monsters by that I mean they don't have monsters they have big boats right those aren't monsters uh they so they don't have ways to take advantage of a lot of those things right yes they have some models that now count as two instead of one because they have more than you know five wounds or more but they're still weak on the objective game that's always been their challenge right yep and the triumph change even though they got like six new triumphs I think in the broken realms I really don't think we can discount how impactful that triumph change was now yep look plus one to wound is a good triumph don't get me wrong and I'm sure that every KO unit's going to love a flat plus one to wound or whatever because that's most time what they're probably going to take okay for their their eighth or gold right but losing their ability to re-roll saves off of a triumph because let's be honest that's what they were using to stick around and to survive yeah it was I playing them a lot it was the second most frustrating thing first being the warp lightning vortex warp warp in a bottle uh it was it was a re-roll saves yeah they they could be so tanky right thunders in particular and yep the fact that most of boats aren't heroes like they're just they're not so you know uh you can't uh they can't by most I mean the boats aren't heroes um the fact that they can't then bonus themselves like you got to have some hero near that boat going yes you have plus one to save now right instead of just the boat being able to do it to itself yeah true now on the other hand not everything is against them only shell redeploy and their ability to actually have lots of re-roll ones could be a benefit re-roll ones kind of just suddenly went away as a resource in the core rules so the fact that they can now spark plus one to hit and then also re-roll ones in lots of places means that they could often be on like twos re-rolling ones in a lot of cases that would not be an uncommon situation to happen if they can then pop a triumph as well and so be on like twos re-rolling ones twos you know like they could have some some 420 blaze it rounds yeah okay but they're going to be way more fragile right yep yeah 100 so their buffs and and they're those things they can use will be more consistent but if people catch them which is theoretically easier on a smaller board it's going to be a worse time for them and I think especially with it's to be determined how their abilities interact with like moving and retreating because they trigger off normal moves and now the definition of retreating yeah one of those armies that how they clarify that is really going to have huge impact but fly high if you can't do it when you're in combat because it's not a normal you know you can't do a normal move in combat stuff like that if it falls on one side it could be big you know one way or the other right also even for I know there's that battalion in the GHB for what behemoths to make a normal move pregame normal move that technically traders the high fly where they can relocate anywhere on the board right so those I think that'll be a really interesting thing to watch and see how it gets adjusted because actually we're not there yet but even sylvanas teleporting between woods they can't do it in combat anymore either that appears to be true yep barring the FAQ yep a lot of things changed blood knight's got a big benefit and everybody else went wait what's that we'll say hold on yeah yeah okay so I reached out to of course tom to get his thoughts and just run through for some of them yeah I figure one of us had to do some more you know there's you said the coast he might he might have some opinions uh let's see so he he thought thunder is we're going to be a little kneecap now at only max size of 10 you know you should be able to do that 20 uh now they're kept at 10 he said there's a skyport that you could take no I think it takes into 15 if memory serves okay yeah uh generally he thought that you know they're going to be a lot more MSU which is not too keen on uh let's see you know he made the point about yeah none of the ships are monsters re-roll saves is an issue he was pretty down on KO I mean I've heard other like I was listening a little bit of the aether cast podcast a bunch of the KO players yeah they did a two and a half hour review of KO and they didn't seem to be as as down as tom is appear to be I mean shooting and mobility are two real strong things right they have both of them a lot so you know they're probably still in the conversation right that's that's that's going to be there you know so like there are definitely hits this army took no doubt I will be interested to see where it lands yes tidings tidings mentioned that you can't ate their gold on Edwin Ragers or Warden's anymore because now their max size is nine if they have the balloon boy general yes which is relevant you have to have 10 people to get your gold we're not the KO aren't like Lumineth where they just all get gold for no reason they have to earn it here so yep okay cool anything else on KO I think we're I think we're good all right here we go there's the there we are Lumineth realm lords my subheader here is big points changes could be enough to bring this complex nonsense into balance which may be a controversial statement for multiple reasons I don't care come at me come at me tactless people okay by the way if you're happy about Lumineth changes hit the like button don't forget to hit like as we're doing this we really appreciate it if you're not happy about Lumineth changes also hit like YouTube will know the difference trust me at any rate so thank you everybody I'm excited to see everybody in the audience great chat I like a lot of this feedback I'm seeing in the comments today all right so let's talk about the big changes here boy oh boy we already mentioned a few of them wardens up 25 that's a big hit allerith spirit of the mountain up 35 okay the light of a thurian up 30 uh these are these are relatively big moves right I did nothing wrong he's been on the shelf the entire time I'm just telling you I don't look man I don't disagree or agree I'm just saying techless up 80 how he went from 660 to 740 but Marathi still down there at 660 is mysterious to me Severeth up 45 whoo uh Avalonore up 55 to 415 he went way up I mean they had moves yeah uh gotta get up gotta move yes uh cue the the same hotel all right so uh what's our thoughts Jordan I want to start with you what's your thoughts on Lumineth oh gosh I think I first off the biggest one is wardens um but just because that's again battle line and and it's not like your other battle line if traders off taking warden so you have to take at least these two units and they're also your your you know one of your best combat pieces you know output pieces there is there's a huge staple in the army right it's like so this is this is like the army that like I've been having the most difficult time building lists now not saying that's a negative thing again they had a lot of you know strong abilities and everything but like man it flipped it on its head and I feel like maybe some of the points were missed in terms of the changes like you know El Therian um as Tyler said I think honestly I would have loved I would have happily seen um the reverse between wardens and sentinels where sentinels grow up 25 and wardens grow up 10 I think that was what you know most people were expecting yeah that was by the way completely agreed what the wrong units went up the wrong amounts right like sentinels should have been up 25 warden should have been up 10 switch those two numbers and like somehow sensible now yeah so it's like yeah so but like again mortal woman's being so strong here shooting being so strong here in the game it's like we already were asking for sentinels to grow up and cost and so yeah that one this doesn't make sense to me but um yeah so you know what the only thing I would say to that is because wardens though are your you know mandatory you have to take two units for the most part unless you do one of the other sub factions um it does you know you know by ripple effect affect how many sentinels you're fitting in lists yeah but I think they could have addressed it more straightforwardly and not you know just hit the target unit not everything else because if you're not abusing sentinels then you're just getting punished yeah do what Jordan do you think we're like as a baseline are we looking at one unit of 30 sentinels and that's it we're a lot of lists are we looking at like two by 20 for board flexibility yeah I think anywhere from the 20 to 40 range is is going to be the most common 20 with a lamp and light is still very effective at taking out a threat or you know crippling something yeah um there's a lot of talk obviously you know with with the unleash hell but sentinels well well it is mortal wounds all they care about is the sixes they don't have those re-rolls and they do depend on the re-rolls so I don't I don't see the big 30 unit necessarily being the you know the most impactful or the the best decision you know I would take a 20 and a 10 just to be able to spread out and sit on two objectives personally this is just early opinions on everything but I think yeah so 20 to 40 sentinels are still staple and unfortunately we're to see less wardens on the table which I don't think is you know the change we wanted yeah do you think they were the best unit in the book unit not not hero just unit wardens in 2.0 uh so you we've talked about it before yeah that's that's a lot of that's a lot of question but yeah so um I think wardens before were super strong and I don't think people necessarily gave them the credit do I think they justified these points changes in the way they went went not necessarily because it's a lot to bring them to bear right yeah but when you look at the base numbers wardens have twice the output of sentinels yeah they just have a much harder time bringing that to bear again you know projection of powers um uh vince's coin turn that is an example like they have much tougher time bringing their output to bear of course warden or sentinels is just point and click don't even need line of sight um so wardens are so strong don't hit me wrong um but I think now the trade-off of you know I was actually again like I said my list went up 270 points I was over investing wardens uh to try and get that value out of them especially in a sub faction like alumnia where you can cover some of those weaknesses of movement right what were you running uh 30 and 10 or 20 and 20 30 20 pretty 20 okay yeah I remember you're running a lot yeah okay and yeah so I think there's again that was like jumping through hoops to make that work and be efficient where sentinels were already all all no efficient and you didn't yeah so yeah I don't need to take you hit the wrong unit uh uh any more times but yeah so yeah a lot of thoughts uh let's see uh just to name off some units so the ballista didn't deserve I don't think it deserved the 25 point increase I can't believe that went up 25 points yeah okay that one was yeah borderline at best I think in the opinion of you know general consensus opinion I I liked it at 100 you know a little slot in I thought it was maybe a little underrated it was what you took if you happen to have exactly a hundred points left and you're like well everything else of this army doesn't fit so sure exactly because it was really easy to get all the conditions to where you're at uh you're getting your 30 inch range at three shots threes and twos or twos and threes minus two rendy three damage so you know pretty good it was very easy to get all that and uh yeah but now that's it's not really much of competition for the most part relative to the sentinels so that sucks uh the the alerith obviously went up quite a bit I mean they were the ones that were the least competitive I would say like you would see maybe teclas uh in an in an emetrica but never really did all that well uh benjamin sabah did well I saw a tts tournament with that but yeah very rare pretty difficult to do really well with very low model count uh hero monsters I mean they're gonna be good spirit of the mountain avalanor uh absolutely good with all these benefits I don't know I mean he has he is he is a beastly fellow when he can give himself uh you know plus one to hit right like and and and potentially also have kicked on his happiest day right like you know in that round he's gonna go in and do the dirty business because he could sometimes whiff a little bit with his big hammer yeah he was in the derpy zone at base three threes yep but when he moves down into you know twos and twos that's a very different amount of math like and you know his hammer does hit like a hammer it's it's for realsies yeah yeah I'm going against monsters potentially roar to turn off their stacking of saves that could help with that minus from rent at still though I I'm still a little worried about I don't know we gotta see I'm just a little worried in general in the game about minus one rent particularly on hero monsters uh so as as a baseline but yeah the hurricanes so what do you guys think about them like obviously we saw still amazing they were ridiculous at 130 they're still fine at 155 win chargers are win chargers I don't know if you watch the tsn game that got played with uh all win chargers but basically the person never got touched they were just they would just move around the board you'd be like oh whoo shoot you dudes whoo I'm back over here it was just like yeah it was all over the place like they were just un-catchable by the enemy army and and that's not every matchup right but that's enough it's not it's not a it's not a small number of matchups where you can just be like okay so the way we're gonna fight this game is I will shoot you and you will never melee me yeah yeah yeah I saw that uh we talked I know Joe's been Joe cry has been doing really well with her con in general and I've heard a lot of complaining about severth going up 45 points I mean I've played against him a couple times he was a bit of a nightmare at least with melee armies should have done a damn thing about him uh but he's not a monster so that is a little bit of a downside with him in terms of the new ghp 21 and you know that's a decent price tag you're paying for him now he's more mostly chip damage oriented you know you can flood his attacks those three ups it's not sure yeah so of course we bury the lead a little bit on the lore seeker yeah that's we talked a little bit about that I mean the fact if and if it's going to be true that you're going to be able to take multiple lore seekers that seemingly seems a little bent yeah let's let's just get into it here we go all right yeah so here's my fun meme for this one as you'll see here I think hopefully everybody likes this meme uh Elro impact some of the new changes will be very impactful to armies so the cost increases in this army are felt because they were right where you tend to have a lot of units the 270 point thing doesn't surprise me at all Jordan that that's right the analysis I had when I was looking at list I was like wow that's you know it's it's hitting them where they lived right in a lot of places and then some other and then there's just like splash damage that happened onto other units that you're just like why but fine the spirit hero uh unique people also got hit hard for like weird reasons like we mentioned this is El Tharian and and these kinds of people right that just um didn't seem like they they needed he didn't need to go up that much but also like boy did Avalon or go up boy you know just have to go up too much and I don't know uh and so my final question here is the lore seeker is no longer unique and only went up 10 points so can LRL win games solely off this hero like can you just win games with if they don't reunify him or in some way yeah okay so uh well Jordan why don't you start so okay yeah I got I have thoughts so yeah even from the start I've never been as sold maybe as as other people have I totally get his utility he's he's amazing but I look at it from like again a lot of my my frame references looking competitive and you know going to an event and trying to win all your games and there are a lot of armies that can can deal with it right um like even um so Oliver we've mentioned the chat uh is one of our season of war guys on our crew and um we played a game with gardens and I mean he's not gonna stand up very long there even with a five blade dart thing and so sure I think with that and the prevalence of mortals and now the non stacking plus is to save that usually impacts him um or you know lack of you know re-roll that's that's a good point yeah the for a base is a big impact I noticed that last night when I played against him yeah yeah so so I do think he's a great tool and especially if you can put in somewhere protected um but it's tough also I don't know also with the new missions I think it's going to be the real real and their test for his viability is like there's so many where now you gain control you know when you're deployed on it you know there's a lot where you're the they are in the deployment zone so I I haven't played a game yet at least where I've been able to like put him down effectively um you know and not just be like okay you're gonna kill him turn one if I put him down in your zone so I can't do that that's been kind of what I've been running into yeah I'm endlessly impressed by this guys I mean I play against LRL quite a bit and my opponent always used one like every time and there's the various ways you can use this dude between dropping on an objective or putting him in your backline to screw with you and just be annoying and threaten your own backfield objective or show up and cast a spell like I didn't want to think about this guy showing up and dropping new shackles right in front of your army and it's like oh well that was fun I guess I just won't run or charge now anymore so thanks um you know unless I happen to roll a naturally uh with a lot of my armies uh so you know like the idea of four of these idiots running around and just like all the objectives on the board are mine so deal with that now yeah like you're right one it might have been kind of hard to keep alive in the new rules I'm not sure four it's suffer that same fate it's all I'll say yeah when I can just be like all of your objective are belong to me right I got a ball and I'm four drop or whatever you know like because you'd favor the drop the lower drops and then you just take everything right that they that you basically can and then you're like okay uh well like I definitely max scored the first turn right like I maxed out the first turn and until you pull me off I'm going to keep pushing toward max because I'm automatically filling the I have at least one objective and I have at least two objectives thing that tend to occur on a lot of these not all of them but on a lot of them right so at any rate but that would become a crutch like I don't get me wrong I don't think any of this is a good thing like honestly this guy should go back to unique and other things should probably be kind of like a couple things should be adjusted like I really just think switch the sentinels are warden points and all of a sudden we've got a much better force on our hands right there just looking to see where he gets to where he has to deploy outside of your territory three inches away from the enemy well I don't feel anywhere outside okay yeah Jordan as you're talking yeah I started flipping at the flipping through the GHB scenarios I hadn't looked through and to see which ones the lower seeker would be really good at because there were quite a few in the 2.0 but so yeah I'm not you're right I'm not seeing that many that's yeah there's something last time I mean it depends there's still a lot of versions of previous things that he's going to be strong on right like there's a new battle for the past and a new three points of power and a new all those kinds of things and you know he's sure he's a strong contender on those kinds of ones so that's right yeah for sure some missions he'll definitely be abusive in a you know one or two especially could be like you're saying it could end the game before it starts right so yeah but I don't know I don't think overall if you look at a five game thing he's going to be doing that every game no no no definitely not like at most even if you've got four of these they're waiting you like they're going to give you one or two wins though in a tournament just on their existence which is something oh for sure and another big key with not being unique is the ability to take artifacts and yeah different things so so obviously this you know first one to jump to mind for a lot of us luminous flares I'm sure was blade of leaping gold for plus three attacks and uh flaming weapon as a spell so he's doing seven attacks at like twos and threes rend one d d three plus one damage but yeah 100 so so he will have I think it opens up different options like that yeah you have to say I think time will tell I'm you know has yeah I don't know I'm I think he's good and great and can be very useful in many situations um but I don't know if he's going to be the menace like like for instance I don't know if I would personally say he's the best hero in the game um but you know again that's I think time will tell yeah I've got I've got one in mind for that title yes when I've gotten mine he's got all kinds of titles that he likes to get to himself apparently but we'll get to him later yeah he's he's very under pointed in this game right now sure I yeah I agree with that I should could easily see him going up another 20 points so on the yeah I played a lot one use that I've seen with a lore seeker is it's a you often don't necessarily have to worry about your drop count with luminous if you have a lore seeker because he is he can be your protection in in that regards where you can potentially force your opponent to go first depending on the situation in which your opponent can place him you know where you can place him uh yeah I've experienced that a few times that's been pretty effective I like your point about the non-stacking saves he's got a four four plus save so that's kind of you know because the world too small he has his own built-in bonus so he's just most of the time got a factor from that right so he's just at yeah that's kind of where it stops everything else beyond that it's just rent protection right which is not always which is not always mattering sure yeah it's sure it makes a big impact because that dude is running around on two up most all the time before yeah like just baseline he was running around on two up uh all right I want to keep moving uh doom asked did we cover ogres and stormcast yet no we're not going to cover stormcast doom because their points aren't real we know they're all wrong and we're going to get new points in uh in their book when it comes out in a couple weeks um we will cover ogres later um they're in the destruction section so we'll get there okay all right so uh who's your favorite it's you and buy a lot yes we love you lrl uh i guess though the the real way to redo this meme though should have been to have doc there because it's like tab the other two to have lrl and idk and then doc and be like who's your favorite it's you and buy a lot like that would be the real meme because there is a definite hierarchy here okay seraphon oh boy oh boy let's talk about dem lizards so seraphon went up an average of 11.38 percent i'm sorry that number got a little cut on the bottom uh points moves across the board but nothing overwhelming uh is my answer here now obviously a bunch of that 11.38 percent is a lie because it's being driven up by croak right and his kind of fake increase through broken realms right um and getting a totally new scroll your other big movers were things like why yeah exactly why did they have to hit the one thing in this army that i truly loved which was the the skink chief on stegadon he was a little hidden gem he was my little baby boy he could he could punch above his weight if you put all the things on him but he was still fun nobody was complaining about the skink chief on stegadon okay because he's a fun goofy piece you used in like thunder lizards uh coalesced right to like run around and give him a million extra attacks and suddenly he's just like wow and he does like 30 or 40 damage because you put all the buffs into him and somebody's like whoa that's that's a little skinky dude just went crazy that was amazing everybody was happy i never had anybody get mad at me when i played the stegadon or the skink chief on stegadon right yeah and he went up 55 points holy moses if he's going up that much because of the potential synergies then i'm going to need you gw to explain to me in very clear words why skinks are still only 75 points okay very good question because if we're costing based on synergy then skink should be like 100 points for 10 bare mints i like you okay bare mints absolutely if i'm paying 140 points for 10 demonettes that have almost no synergies you can pay 100 for stupid skinks okay love it so i just i'm gonna need an explanation there on what my beautiful baby boy did again did to you okay okay so there's my summation you guys go ahead even like looking the same thing with the oracle on troglodon and like old blood on karnosaur like those are cool models that we you were so excited to see your opponent play because they were just so cool and you knew they were playing them because they loved them so to see those get like the hardest hits it also puts up you know the average point increase where again maybe we're not pointing the right things necessarily right um in this fashion either so yeah yeah i i think that's absolutely right i mean you know when i look at like i mean yes salamanders got reduced right obviously because of the reinforcement changes yeah um so that's something to note like you could it's packs of two now is sort of where they cap yeah uh now that being said i don't think the stock on salamanders goes down much i've heard a lot of people already talking about just flooding the board with singular sally's right and and just you know having lots of shots maybe having a two-pack to unleash or something like that uh you know but like they're the sally's the big hit because you can't do the three packs anymore or six or million or five million or whatever you were doing before i don't know i i couldn't really i couldn't tell that i couldn't count how many of them there was through the pain of like being hit by neg two rent shooting and then charged by neg two rent mortal wounding biting yeah max of three yeah yeah no and and the coherency or it's not coherency sorry the the reinforcement is also big actually for stings too so 30 blocks is you know 25 percent output difference now they can still have nearly the same amount of stings they're just not buffing as many up in one go yeah it's it is important to say your 40 blocks skinks are gone you're now capped at 30 so that is a thing mm-hmm yeah that that impacts source warriors as well yeah so they're 30 now can't get them up interesting can't believe what we're doing too much complaining about serif on point increases we need to stop it because no i think at the end there's a couple like bad ones here i don't agree with like the old water carnosaur shouldn't have went up 40 most of the big hero monster moves they made here they should have went up some don't get me wrong because they're all hero monsters and as we said hero monsters are good right but they just serif on feels like they got the it's weird because in some armies the hero monsters shot way up they just got like big bumps right and in some armies they kind of stayed flat or went down like we talked about cities earlier and i can't figure out what the difference was right like they're all hero monsters and arguably like the anointed on phoenix that that is like way better than any of the three things we just mentioned as far as its utility in the game yeah okay went down yeah like it feels like we should have had more like if we're gonna say okay hero monsters are all really good we all agree they're strong so categorically we're gonna all put big jumps across the board cool fine all right then then i'll shut up yeah right yeah but i've seen a lot of armies where that's not the case and i just don't know what the difference is mm-hmm uh so pokastro sent me a few thoughts he's been playing serif on a lot uh yeah he he's right there with you on the on the poor skink chief getting his increased the pterodons he thought that was an odd one uh pterodons went up 25 points well i don't think i saw a lot of them i mean you know they're gonna potentially get some play with again turning off a leash out anything that can fly 16 inches occurred that could be effective for turning off a leash out might might see some play and you know maybe a little three-pack two but three packs running around but yeah we didn't see a whole lot of them uh and then let's see yeah he mentioned the unit sizes he thought maybe we might see some more thunder lizard gets a play yeah with just these you know monsters running around sure it's a little bit more of that uh i i tend to yeah no i just that's a great point i the minus one damage is only more effective when you have the plus ones you know save in in 3.0 and everything so absolutely yeah yeah played a lot of games against that yeah with armies with two damage you know like current on swords and yeah it just oh rough iron jaws hates it yeah um let's see uh yeah i think we're gonna move toward uh one of our local guys dan he uses the croak crawl so he would do like 20 source guard and croak and just put in the middle of the table move it forward turn up to turn and it's kind of it's a little bit like arc yarn it's like it's you can't exactly ignore it i mean you can try to but i think especially with these smaller number of objectives it's gonna be even more difficult to ignore and grog just yeah moving up the board big body guards doing his thing um but yeah well i don't know what do you guys think what's there for and do you think that they've obviously they were at the top of the top of the heap they were at the top of the heap i think they came down a little but i think they're still gonna come out okay because again they're a big mixed arms synergistic force that can still largely do the synergies they need yeah like nothing in the changes really hit them they weren't relying on a lot of command ability stacking you know they were relying on a prayer and an ability and blah blah blah all coming together like things that are no longer really limited in any way uh by prayer i don't mean actual prayer i mean like a thing where you roll three up and it happens right it's that's somehow not a prayer um i didn't get clarity on the bound and the spells piece sure yeah they're bound the spells um so yeah i mean my here's my summary page it might be enough to bring them into line but their tools are still very much present right skinks are still one of the best battle line in the game because of the way they take buffs and they're their overall synergy like they just are all the tools in the toolbox got more expensive but the tricks are still here here's a fun fact croak has a 0.02 percent chance to kill himself every time he casts a spell yeah that's just true love it so uh and boy is miscast fun by the way i don't know that it needed to exist in the game it's fine i would have been fine if it didn't i don't know that it needs to come back it's just kind of an extra thing but i will say boy does it actually seem to randomly control spell doms as i was playing like uh i had two games this weekend against uh selva death who had a larryl in the group and twice in in in the first game on her first cast she miscasts inch went boom and stopped the rest of her spell casting and hurt herself and i was like haha your folder having a multicaster first off that's hilarious of you to talk about silvaneth in the context of spell doms yeah but but sure i my point was any multicasters because you're a hundred percent right that reminds me miss miscasting with uh say a unit of ten mordans what the hell happens does the wizard model blow itself up the answer is FAQ the answer is FAQ happens right uh and then was the change to croak enough to bring them in line probably not this is my answer like i mean they're just a dominant army i i know anthony i know you disagree your own experiences or your own experiences but these guys top three tournaments constantly like constantly they had a way out the fat middle win rate their win rate was exorbitant like in any given tournament they were usually in the top three almost that consistently almost every tournament result like that is too good they were simply too good now that doesn't mean every build of them is too good or something like that right but like they were absolutely dominant and there were armies that played against them that were just like a fair number of them that were just non-games yeah yeah it's it's it always it's straight oh we can move on but it kind of struck me as an army that doesn't necessarily need that much change to get meaningfully knocked down in just in terms of how it would work how it would play but yeah hopefully hopefully that's happened now and maybe we'll see a little bit more variety than we used to but yeah we'll see uh it's i i personally hope that they like i don't want them to be ruined i think serif under a super cool army full of super fun stuff right yeah um but i i want to see like but i want to see them come into range like they they need a bit of a kicking like i'm sorry but when you're a top army that's just got a 60 plus 70 win rate you know in that range yeah like you gotta you're gonna get a kicking i'm sorry to say we all hate it we all we all we all love it when it's not our army and we cheer when they get a kicking but like it sucks if you're that person but it has to happen i yeah okay silvaneth speaking of dominant forces in the meta uh my my my thing here is pretty big moves for an army in a rough place but they might still be slightly better uh they've got some interesting things going on they do have quite a few hero monsters yep um they have uh their new woods rules are honestly way better than i thought they ever could be um like their ability to actually just turn like to set up onesies of woods yeah makes a lot of incidental things better just like metamorphosis gets a lot better the fact that it's also on a three up now right um it becomes actually pretty easy to turn five wound heroes into just single onesies of woods right right um which can then just be little buff spots for you later uh you know there's they still have like the tree lord ancient going up 35 points for a 300 point single caster no like okay that was rough yeah you know like that's that's one that's kind of that's a that's a rough pill to swallow particularly with war song revenant now on the scene yeah and you know like the war song revenant is really strong new allarial is probably okay if she's used correctly um you still have to protect her because she can't get jumped if she gets jumped she's going down right like if she gets hit by a hammer she will right right um so you know she's not the 740 points tough of 660 point marathi or or you know archeon or anybody else in that point range like she is the weakest of all the gods now i'll say if she doesn't go down she's back to full next round like that's definitely happening now yeah yeah uh so you gotta like spike her like a football or just leave her alone um but yeah i tyler this is your like you you have a deep love for silvin f obviously yeah i'll tell us jordan so you can okay i'll give him the chance to go first by all means jordan tell me what what you thought yeah i know me and tyler have many a many night conversation about so um exactly what you guys said i think just the heroes didn't necessarily need to be hit as hard as they were like you know yeah i don't know it's tough i'm so hopeful for this army has so many people i feel like are about you know the buffs helping them in in uh it was three and i was so optimistic with the changes until the ghp now i'm still optimistic don't get me wrong but like 35 points to turn off like that seems wild to me at a 20 increase nearly like right that yeah like i don't i get it turn off or are great no because they're all too good it's it's they got the five wound model curse exactly yeah and they do have reroll saves which is even better when you can do a plus whatnot you know anytime uh so they have some great utility but like for an army that was struggling like you know like you said to be hit like this with with bait increases was a little surprising to me um yeah i'm definitely loving you know i think many of us are gonna make use of the new hero the war son rev like he's our best caster in our army now um like the yeah we saw it i don't like in our last battle report we saw but i had a larry all literally she just didn't shift down all games so by by you know an 80 point stave and hero yeah and yeah justice the lack of that plus one cast dispel unbind on her is is criminal yeah like fine no ward whatever but she has to have a plus one cast dispel unbind anyway yeah and the war son i think bring the war son got the treatment of what we are hoping for larryl now i actually i love larryl in the current game she has an awesome war scroll very fragile still but still an awesome war scroll she can do a lot but the you know the war son rev got one he's not unique so he's flexible he has plus one near wildwood that should be like an allegiance ability plus one to cast near wildwood sure um and then also he has he got like was like a four up ward save like that's how but those were the things we were hoping for larryl you know barring other changes but i mean again so so he's i know tyler there's a couple builds where you you know build into him in different ways which are really cool yeah so he's yeah he if anybody hasn't seen it so check out just plays latest battery port the first three point a battery port there's an incredible moments involving the war song revenant that led to a meme you may have seen on twitter floating around involving tom and richie it was amazing and it really highlights the mortal wounds bomb potential of a war song revenant as spell portal has really changed so that's still on the table you can check her unleash sprites his unleash sprites through spell portal nine inches from the spell portal yep and uh you've got ways now like best where you could do vesperal gem where you autocast thernivines and so you're getting plus two cast on thernivines you just hang keep hanging out in the same spot keep them protected stacking thernivines spell portal by a side somebody else cast or whatever and yeah and just if you don't have a way to get it off the board it could get really scary as as the game goes on so there's we could spend 20 minutes on the war song revenant there's so many different builds with with that guy but yeah i so lots of thoughts on some of that i i think they are a very intriguing faction in relation to 3.0 feels like there's going to be a number of folks coming back and trying to make them work i mean that you know like lori is excited it's one of the play testers lori is playing them today he is playing war song revenant and allereal it's cool to see i wish i had a couple of folks just get some other opinions matt davies he did statistically the best at least in terms of tracking on jp's statistics of any similar player over the over the last year math malo on twitter he was a little more down on them than i was expecting matt's matt's opinions i think i think he's generally worried about the kernal thunder point increase you know like whether you're going to have the needed damage output even with size at minus two rend that was something that's and i think he's concerned about swords now you know previously he would be running six swords i don't know jordan if you ever tried that we talked a lot about that like a unit of six that's yeah that's not really doable of course now because they're when it's reach right and yeah so yeah i mean it's his general takeaway he's a little more down on them than than i expected yeah tree lord ancients be down the tree revenants you know they i think it was nice to see that they didn't get a point increase they're probably where they should be right about now yeah yeah and you'll see more because spites did get the point increase where they were 20 cheaper so they were you would take them just as they were dirt cheap right now and only a 10 point difference you're just going to pay 10 points more for unit that teleports yeah absolutely there's a lot of hope once i mean as always around dirthu that he's going to get out of his derp through phase and i i'm not sure like we do have list potentially have more reliable healing maybe particularly the warsong revenants there and maybe spell portal to get the reach if he's up field doing business but the the problem is you know jordan a lot of people know with him is you just do a few wounds to him and the six damage goes to be six damage which makes him entirely unreliable so that's i'd say that's still the main issue with with dirthu we do have obviously so the the ger trade that's in all games of oh profile that's a great point so that helps him but it means you you're not doing plus one to hit with him or right you know so so it it helps but it's not like you you don't get both right so it's not right what you want but it's like but you've got it out yeah exactly yeah yeah so another friend uh david sidebotham he's played them a lot so i was asking david for his thoughts he kind of went through you know he thought dredwood is still decent uh matt didn't didn't quite agree on that dredwood was the one that everybody used to play for the most part is the teleport one you know like you do nine size you can't do that anymore you can do six size now as max i think we still might see some play it seems like that's still a little pretty viable but he really thought that uh heartwood in particular is getting really turned on under jordan you've been i think you did a game your first three point no game was heartwood against scaven and you were you were experiencing that because the lord of the hunt command ability it goes on an enemy units and it's real ones to hit and wounds against that enemy unit so amazing synergy with the new commands i can see heartwood being a really really hot choice and then it also is i so i played heartwood lot in 2.0 and it's the best way to run turn off with bows because you get reroll hits for turn off within 12 of the artifact right so and and that actually also affects uh them with unleash hell so where they do get minus one hit still they'll be on fives unleash hell but it's fives rerolling is a huge difference um so a unit of six of those you know 12 shots on fives rerolling and run one it's like it's it's scary mm-hmm yeah 100 i think drycha is even more interesting now so i think i think she lost behemoth yeah but obviously i mean she is that tin wound but she's a monster uh unleash hell is really interesting with her she benefits from the commands i mean just all the things you go down the list that we always talk about with with these hero monsters she benefits from sure her problem is she has 10 wounds she was nine wounds she'd be so much better absolutely that that does let her fit in the one drop battalion a lot easier yeah yeah that's true i mean if she was nine when she could still fit because you can take a nine one here over the big one so yeah i'm sorry i meant if she was over oh yeah yeah with like with sorry with someone like a lariola or something yeah yeah it would be yeah i wish she just lose the wound she used to get slightly weaker she'll be 10 times better yeah i can see like tree lords potentially you know they're 190 they're a little more interesting to me now they've got the monster rampage you know they're a um a tool they're a piece that for roar to to move with like six eyes potentially you know a little power pair tree lords six sides running together when you need to get that roar off i think that could be kind of interesting they got stomp which stomp stomp us you know if you can get it off it's four up but it's it's it's still nice and yeah it's like it's it's hard to say it there's a lot more promise on the table uh dry adds i think msu in my opinion you're you're mostly i it's fun to say that hold on let's let's let's just because we we gotta move but here's my name for this by the way which is a larial and ogre the my favorite conspiracy theory in aos is my name for this uh so the woods changes new larial and the flute man have some work to do um so new woods remain the best change in the book as they can now be set up as much faster and easier to pass up buffs they are one of the few armies that can put 30 blocks of actually pretty interesting battle line on the table relatively cheap like the fact that dry adds went down under 95 so i i did uh like i my opponent on over the weekend i played two games against sylvanath he did use 30 blocks of dry adds in both games and it was actually interesting like dry adds are the fact that there's more woods all over the place means that it's much easier to keep them kind of going on their sort of abilities right when because he was turning people into woods and summoning woods and you know just like ones these ones these woods woods woods woods right like it would just they could just pop out kind of anywhere right and so it kept them a lot more functional in that way um because they were sort of always having their abilities on yeah definitely uh you know and and realistically you're getting you know 30 of them for 285 i think is what it comes down to and yeah and you know they they're not bad they do have a big reach because they got their little long tender arms they do have a two inch reach right yeah uh so give them plus one attack and yeah i mean there's there's a lot of buffs you can actually put on them that can they can make them do some work i don't like don't be wrong i don't think they're like an amazing let's let's sure i don't want to overstate the case here right i'm just saying i think they're they're interesting so i do agree with you they could be msu and that's fine i also think you could use a big block and you they're one of the few types of big blocks like that isn't that isn't overcosted and you can actually get some work out of that's what i'm saying yeah absolutely yeah yeah i'm less i'm i'm still worried about the bows i just i mean you have to obviously have to be able to ship people off of objectives and you're putting so many points it like if you go six bows you're what 450 yeah that's crazy yeah even even a hardwood to me that's crazy like i i don't know i i'm even skeptical about six bows and hardwood in relation to your capacity to ship people off objectives and actually play the game and you know win games but yeah so i i still think they're going to come down to yeah mobility alleros really interesting war song revenant amazing i mean that's that's the best range damage output potentially in the army other metamorphosis definitely been turned on a little bit as well so it might be cool allarial and war song revenant try to lean into the range damage output and then yeah bodies you know just focus on objectives with the rest of your army six sides are still turned on but yeah it generally feels like it's going to be similar but you might be leaning more into hero monsters i just i still worry that derthu is gonna i don't know he'll find a way to still be terrible all right let's keep moving gentlemen we got a lot still to cover and as we leave order behind it is time to enter chaos all right well i set the two big ones up front so we can coast toward the end of the whole here but all right just blow through the the death and destruction ones even though there are going to warrant some very interesting discussion mm-hmm all right chaos so lots of changes across a lot of armies uh let's get into it beast oh chaos uh many they're the beast i didn't know if you had their all Irish actually it's weird um but anyways they they have many monsters but they're still in a tough place in the monster edition is my argument um none of these points moves outside of the end the spells are like actually very big but they're all kind of meaningful in a world where you sort of spam stuff yeah i mean you know um on gore is going up 10 and you know your basic gore is going up five which is comical they're one of the worst teams in the game uh doom bull go sorry the doom bull going up 15 you're there's just a lot of moves around here right um bull gore is going up 15 like okay sure um you know the the there are bright spots here i guess like you know dragon ogres again got the i'm five wounds penalty by going up 20 points yeah which just feels really unearned uh for what they're capable of achieving but i mean sure that's it is six models now so okay i guess that is true uh you know some of the zangor stuff got cheaper that's probably the bright spot here in this story is some of the zangor stuff went down significantly so maybe there's uh maybe there's some some action there um certainly things like the cockatrice um been which i've been repping forever uh you know like at a 95 point monster i'm i'm all for that anytime you can get a 95 point monster that can start using monster abilities and any bad yeah jordan which any any beast to chaos insights i mean the army was rough i'm not sure it got helped in any amazing way that's my that's my summary i'm surprised to see them be even at the average increase you know or most of the average like i'm like you said i thought this is an army that would st