If you clicked on this video and you're expecting for me and my guest to bash the church, you clicked on the wrong video. But if you clicked on this video because you are prayerfully considering an exit from your church, and you're wanting to know sincerely, not out of bitterness and hurt, but sincerely, when is the right time to leave a church? Is it wrong to leave a church? What are the biblical signs that it's time to move on? And how do you do this biblically, responsibly, honorably? How do you do this, most importantly, in a way that's honoring to the Lord Himself? Well, we're going to be discussing these questions and more. My guest, Spencer Nakamura joins me. My friend, welcome to the broadcast. It's great to have you with me. Hey, thanks, David. Thanks so much for having me on. It truly is an honor to be here, to be talking with you and your amazing network and people that are all across the world that I just saw that are tuning in. So it's an honor for me to be here and share my heart with you. So we're glad that you're here and you and I were discussing today some of the things we're going to talk about. And, you know, Spencer, some of the things we're presenting could so easily be misunderstood by people who have been hurt. And so I know we're going to make sure we take care to address this topic in a very balanced and biblical way. That's why I brought you on because I really enjoyed some of the things you were discussing, especially on the idea of church hurt. So before we get into these signs where we talk about the various signs that it's time to move on from a church or you have God's permission to move on from a church, because, you know, a lot of people feel this sense of legalistic guilt and especially some are manipulated by a leader to imagine that they can't fulfill the call of God without them. But before we touch on these, talk to me a little bit about just kind of how the Holy Spirit's been leading you to talk on this idea of church hurt. Yeah, absolutely. You know, this has been something that I personally have experienced firsthand in that seeing this last couple of years, obviously everybody here knows this last couple of years in the church world has been crazy in the world has been crazy. And I feel like what we have seen is really an overwhelming sense of culture and culture imposing itself into the church. And so the reason that the Holy Spirit really put this on my heart to talk about in these last few years is because I've witnessed people that have left the church and it really has broken my heart and it's broken my heart because, you know, while there is church hurt in the world, I think a lot of times people have a difficulty discerning exactly what that looks like, who's to blame and kind of what you said is man, is this grounds to really leave my church.  Does this hurt? They're not sure.  We put a bandaid on it. Now, there's another time when I was a kid and I fell when I was playing soccer and I fractured my wrist. Now, that was serious and I had to go to the hospital. I had to take extra measures because it was a serious hurt. And so what I've seen is the body of Christ right now. They're having a hard time differentiating. What is a scraped knee? It was a fractured bone. And so because of that, that's why I've been so adamant about talking about these things because a lot of times, you know, we talked about this before where, you know, Satan likes to twist truth and he's about half truths. And so sometimes what he can do is he can take a hurt and make sure that people never go to church ever again as a result of it. And I want to be able to stand in the gap and preach and be able to teach people what it looks like and what does constitute for, okay, I should leave my church or this is something that I should work through. And I think one of the ideas or angles that people very rarely consider is the fact that sometimes there is a little bit of nuance to it. Now, biblically speaking on probably 99% of the issues, it's black and white. It's yes or no, it's right or wrong, but especially when you're dealing with people who are connected to one another in fellowship and accountability in a church setting, you know, sometimes both people can be at fault for certain things and sometimes both people can be bitter and I want it to be clear here.  And I use that phrase legitimate abuse. I want you to understand by that. I mean the the abuse in the sense that it was actually what that word means and I know that when people start hearing things like this Spencer immediately defenses begin to go up because the people who've actually experienced church abuse. They may think we're going in one direction that we're not and then on the other side of the coin, there may be those who think that we're going to validate every single one of their hurts or scrape knees as you put it. I love that analogy. So I want everyone watching this to just put aside the defenses for now and don't try to predict where we're going with this because I think sometimes we hear what people aren't saying precisely because we've already decided what we think they're going to say in our minds. And so especially when we take everything so personally as you hear Spencer talking about, you know, sometimes it's just a scraped knee, you know, something and you may want to rise up and say, well, no, I was legitimately hurt and I experienced and you may want to kind of give your account of how damaging things actually were and that very well may be the case. Perhaps you did experience something that is legitimately abusive or that was highly damaging to your faith to you spiritually and we want to validate that. We want to validate that that actually happens. But again, we're balancing this. This doesn't mean that we're going to go bashing the church making generalizations or even saying that every single complaint is one hundred percent legitimate in Spencer. I think you've done a really good job on this, especially in some of the content I've been seeing coming from you recently on on your podcast. The future is now podcast. By the way, on a side note, the future is now. What does that come from? That's the name of your podcast. But what's the meaning behind that? Yeah. So, you know, when I started this podcast, what I saw and what, you know, my goal was with it was I just really believe that our world is at a turning point and the next generation is deciding where that's going to turn to, right? So the future is now is a statement of, man, the future of our world, the future of the church, the future of Christianity as we know it is dependent on young people that are willing to rise up in truth and say the hard truths and stand for something that might be counterculture. So the reason that I named it the future is now is just because the world of tomorrow depends on how we conduct ourselves today. And so if we're willing to humble ourselves, if we're willing to be spirit led, if we're willing to say, okay, I'm ready to grow, then, man, tomorrow's church is going to look so much better as a result of it. Okay, Spencer, let's give them number one, one of the signs that you know it's time to leave your church. You should leave your church or one of the ways we also phrase it, or you can leave your church. Give us number one. Yeah. So number one, we're going to start off with a soft toss. We're starting off with false doctrine. Now, when we say false doctrine, really what it means is just whatever adds, subtracts, and contradicts what the Bible teaches. Now, what we need to talk about when we're talking about false doctrine is in my opinion, there are the non-negotiables of Christian faith. And what I mean by that is, of course, you know, even me and David or me and another Christian side by side, we're probably not going to agree on 100% of everything. But we do have historical Christian orthodoxy to look at, to look at, okay, what are the non-negotiables of the Christian faith? Right? And that's, you know, God the Father, God the Son, God the Holy Spirit are listening and watching have seen it as well is there have been some churches that another church. Now, an analogy I want to touch on really fast is kind of what I was talking about about the non-negotiables and the practicals and the particulars, right? So I always like to use the analogy of a house being built. And, you know, I have a wife, her name is Adrienne. She's amazing. And me and Adrienne, if we're going house shopping, we're probably looking at different priorities. She's maybe looking for an incredible kitchen, which I would love to have an incredible kitchen. But what I'm looking at is, oh, is there a big bonus room that I can put a movie theater in, right? And so what, but what we both will agree on is, hey, we have to have a house that has a solid foundation that is safe to live in, right? Because that's going to be the first thing. If that's the case, then it's okay for us to question and go back and forth all day with the layout of the house. And so what I attribute to that in the church is you have to find a church that has a great foundation, which is those non-negotiables that we're talking about. And what I'm not talking about is, oh, well, you know, the, the greeters didn't do this on a Sunday and because of that, like, oh, that's false doctrine or they're preaching a little bit too much on this and because of that, it's not my preference. What I'm talking about is those, those non-negotiables, if they're not present in your church, then in my opinion, that is a sign that you should find another church. So these are things like the bodily resurrection of Jesus. Correct. The identity of Christ, the Trinity as you and I were discussing today. I mean, salvation by faith and that is in Ephesians chapter two, verses eight and onwards. So we understand there are fundamentals that are foundational like Spencer is saying. Now, I like what you said about preference and especially this idea of somebody not preaching enough on one particular topic. And this is something I've always found interesting Spencer. Maybe you can comment on this too, but you notice like someone will go to a church and say, well, they didn't preach enough on healing or they didn't preach enough on deliverance or they didn't preach enough on prophecy. I didn't hear a salvation message in there. And, and you have to ask at some point, okay, like what percentage of the messages do you require in each category? If we're going to get that specific about it, it almost becomes legalistic now. Okay. Well, I want the messages to be, you know, 20% spiritual growth, 20% on healing and miracles, 20% on maybe some other idea that I think is important. And the idea is that it has to match that individual's preference for how often something is preached down to the specifics. And this is where we have to give grace. As Spencer is saying, there's, there are those foundations like the church I attended growing up and that I still count as my spiritual covering in California, my pastors in California, you know, they didn't cover the topics I enjoyed the most. They didn't cover the topics I didn't always think were the most important all the time, but they did come together to agree on the foundational truths. And so we can't be nitpicking churches, you know, all they didn't, they didn't talk about deliverance enough or they didn't talk about prophecy or healing or the, when, when are we going to do a message on the end times and revival and so forth? These are great subjects. These are necessary subjects. We should cover them. But just because someone's not covering them to the degree that you want them covered or the percentage that you want them covered doesn't mean that they're preaching false doctrine or that they're dry or they're empty or they're dead. And I think that's a dangerous thing to label people. That's a dead church because they don't emphasize everything I emphasize all the time. Again, we're talking about the primaries and not necessarily the fund, the peripherals are not a reason to leave a church over. Now you're talking about Spencer. They start to preach this false doctrine. I mean, we've been seeing this in this generation. People just totally, and it's this idea of what is it called deconstructionism? This is something that's been prevalent in this generation. Yeah, it's, I mean, deconstruction as a whole progressive Christianity, it has been something that is really prevalent in that and not to digress too much, but you know, I just feel like that that movement specifically is really the, as a result of the one-sided gospel of grace as forgiveness and not grace as empowerment as well, right? Grace is totally forgiveness and forgiveness of our sins, but grace also should empower us to live in truth. And so because of that, I feel like a lot of people, they think that love and truth can be separated or they just ignore truth because they feel like that's the loving thing to do. And that's where we've seen this idea of deconstruction something that I know in my life is it's a lot easier to jump on the negative bandwagon. I don't know. I think that might just be the human condition and the human state that we're in, but a lot of times if people are just ragging on something and talking trash about something, it's easier to go with the flow and say, oh yeah, that might be terrible rather than stand up for it. And what I really believe with this next generation is man, if we had Christians that would stand up for the church, because at the end of the day, if you hang around church long enough, somebody is going to disappoint you within the church, because I always say, any church that I walk into is not a perfect church. I know because I'm in there, right? And I'm not perfect and I make mistakes. And so what I've seen is a lot of times people are willing to extend the same grace that they expect themselves. And so when we talk about church, then another thing that I want to touch on is, the church didn't necessarily hurt you, people hurt you. And it's important to make that distinction because if we can separate what church is intended in its beautiful purpose and what Christ is called the church to be versus imperfect people that get it wrong, then I think church her as a whole might have a little bit different of a view and a lens. And so yeah, when we're talking about false doctrine, it's not necessarily just a preference. It's not necessarily just a, oh, I wish that they would do this more. And I found, you know, if you look at the book of Acts, everybody prays for the church that happens in Acts, right? An Acts movement of God. But how many years was that 40 plus years that happened? And I always say, well, there's not a lot of people sticking around a church for 40 plus years to see a move like that. And so I really think that, man, if we just had the attitude to go into church to say, man, I'm excited to be here with people that love God. I'm here to serve the church. I'm here to be a part of the mission, not just consume, but actually be a part. I feel like our churches would really start to be the church that God in Christ has called us to be. And so with that, and again, like you said, that was the easy one. I mean, that's number one. You see false doctrine. And by the way, guys, false doctrine by definition is not whatever I disagree with. We have to understand that though the scripture is perfect, our interpretation of the scripture is not always perfect. And so this kind of leads into, well, that's going to lead into number three, but let's go to number two now, Spencer. Number two, the second sign that you can leave a church. Yeah, so the second sign would be if God has called you to be somewhere else. Now that it sounds simple and I feel like it sounds easy to grab ahold of, but well, we have to differentiate here. And again, I love what David is saying. We're not here to bash on churches. We're not here to say this is why you should leave your church. We are just talking about science here. And so there are very specific calls that people get in their lives sometimes and sometimes those calls can lead to movement. But notice that we're saying when God calls you to be somewhere else, not you want to be somewhere else. And I think that there's a distinction there of sometimes we can maybe want to be somewhere else or we have a feeling of, oh, I wish that church down the street looks pretty cool. I wish I could be down there, but we're talking, what I'm talking about is specific calls of movement. And Romans 814 says that we're led by the spirit and sometimes that'll happen where the spirit leads us to different places, but we just have to be able to differentiate, okay, what is God and what is me, if that makes sense. And that's going to be probably the major point now where people, obviously that begs the question where people will say, okay, now how do I know God is calling me somewhere else? And this has to do with spiritual maturity and knowing the voice of the Holy Spirit. You know, the voice of the Holy Spirit or hearing the voice of the Holy Spirit, that's not a skill, that's a sense. So like I can't do anything to make myself hear. I just hear, that's a sense I was born with. I can't do anything specifically to make myself see. That's a sense I was born with. Now, I can discipline myself to listen with the sense that I have. I can discipline myself to observe with the sight that I have, but I was born with those senses. Likewise, you were born again with spiritual hearing and spiritual sight. And it's only by exercise of these or attentiveness to these, through the word, through prayer, through a slow pace of the inner life, concentrating on the presence of the Holy Spirit, being aware of his nearness and abiding in any given moment. These are the ways in which we practice the presence and learn to recognize when the Holy Spirit is speaking. So while there are some practicals that you can do to make yourself more keen on hearing the voice of the Holy Spirit, ultimately it's going to come down to whether or not you recognize them. Just think about first Samuel chapter three where Samuel was hearing the voice of the Holy Spirit but not recognizing the voice of the Holy Spirit. So here's how you know that it's probably not the Holy Spirit in that you always are leaving a church. So if in every season you go to a church, six months, I'm just not called here. Here's how you recognize the pattern. I'm going to expose something here today. You go to a church. Oh man, it's the most perfect church in the world. I love the worship. I love the pastor. I love the greeters. I love the building that we're in and gathering it's beautiful and you're experiencing personal renewal. You're enjoying your time there. Somebody offends you and then suddenly, I don't like the pastor's preaching. I don't know about the way they do things here.  And then the same pattern repeats. Oh, I love it. It's beautiful here. Everything is perfect. I love everyone. It's so different than the last. Anytime someone comes to me and says, Brother David, I'm just going to be linked to your ministry. You know my last pastor just I couldn't do it. Right there immediately a red flag goes up like, okay, I'm going to make sure that I'm not the next one in line on that list of pastors that maybe you're bashing and maybe it happened once or twice. But I'm saying that if it becomes a pattern, if it's a constant shifting from one church to the next because of these little things that we hyper focus on, like people get upset because for little things example, like, oh, well, the pastor didn't personally talk to me or the pastor didn't personally disciple me. I'm thinking, do we not realize that Jesus didn't even necessarily personally disciple every individual? Jesus had his three who were the closest. Then he had his 12 then the 72 and then he had the crowds.  That he would often withdraw from the crowds just to be with the 12 because those were the people he was investing. There's something to be said of that spiritual ego that we have now. I want the senior pastor for me not recognizing that maybe they have other responsibilities that God gave to them. And that's why they've empowered other leaders in the church to also help you. We don't like that because it hurts the spiritual ego. But again, these are things you have to watch for. It's not just this lifestyle of flippantly leaving one church to the next. And now it's time. Now I'm called over there. That's not what the Holy Spirit is calling us to. The Holy Spirit is calling us to be planted in a place where there's fellowship and good doctrine like we discussed and to therefore grow with one another. Yes, you do need the body. That's important. You hear people say things like, Well, I am the church. Well, almost biblically speaking, we are the church when we come together. It's in our togetherness that we are the church as we see in 1st Corinthians chapter 14. Yeah, absolutely. Spencer, anything you want to add on that before we jump to number three? Yeah, I mean, I think you made a good point of what is your attitude in leaving a church? And I think that's important to touch on is, you know, a lot of times, often, I don't know people that are called somewhere else by God and how they talk about where they left. I think that's an important thing to know. How are you talking about the season that you're leaving? Now, if you're leaving a church and you have nothing but bad things to say about that church to the new church, then that's kind of like the cycle that we were talking about. And what I've found is this is an easy point for people to hide offenses behind. And, you know, Matthew 5.24, it says that if you are having or presenting an offering at the altar, a gift at the altar, and you remember that you're at odds with a brother or sister, it says leave the gift at the altar and go make amends. And so what we have to be careful of is not using this as a scapegoat to say, oh, I'm called somewhere else, but rather, are you leaving behind unresolved offenses?  And I think that's what we're talking about when we're saying, when there's a repetitive cycle to every six months, every year, going to a different church, we have to understand the core root of that and be willing to deal with that and deal with the offenses that we're feeling. And again, we are not saying that there aren't legitimate reasons to leave a church. Absolutely. I mean, there are, look, I discussed this in my message on when I talked about cults, okay?  I talked about how to know you're in a cult-like church. And there are signs that are major red flags that are, they're basically places that are ripe for abuse, spiritual manipulation, abuse of all sorts. That's not what we're talking about. What we're presenting here are biblical keys, truths, ideas that will help you to be self-examining, that will help you to honestly look at your own heart and say, okay, was this something like Spencer gave us the analogy up front? Was this a scraped knee situation? Or is this, I believe you said it was your wrist that you, what did you do with your wrist? Fractured it. Fractured your wrist. Okay, so what kind of a situation is this? So again, we have to avoid both extremes. The extreme of every church is messed up. So I'm not going to go to any church or everything is a reason to leave. And also the extreme of not admitting that these abuses take place. Absolutely. It's a biblical, loving, balanced approach. And again, I want to caution you as you watch this that you're not hearing what we're not saying because sometimes when people aren't immediately validated in their hurt, they take that as a personal attack on them. So if I talk about maybe somebody exaggerating the hurt that they're experiencing in the church or Spencer says something about how people leave church sometimes for no good reason, maybe you who has a legitimate hurt might hear that go, oh, they're talking to me and get upset and say, no, I have a legit reason to be upset. And then of course this works on the inverse as well. But again, this is a self-examination. This only works if you're being honest with yourself. And if you're being honest with yourself and you're saying like David, the Psalmist wrote, search me God, know my heart, know my ways and remove those things. That's my prayer, remove those things Lord that are not reflective of you. Remove those things that are of the sin nature that are of the flesh. So we'll be getting into some clearer abuses. I'm sure at some point in the broadcast if not you can check out that teaching on Colts that I did, it's here on the YouTube channel. Okay, Spencer, give us number three. So far we have number one, the church preaches false doctrine and this is a violation of the fundamentals of the faith, okay? Number two, you're called by God to be somewhere else that's legitimately, you can only know that yourself by the Holy Spirit. We say it on that point, make sure you're not just repeating a pattern of leaving one church, going to the next, leaving one church, going to the next. Okay, give us number three, my friend. Yeah, so number three would be a difference in conviction with leadership. Now, this is gonna differ from number one because like we said, there are the non-negotiables at the foundation but a verse that I always point to when I'm talking about this point is Hebrews 12 one and Hebrews 12 one says, therefore, since we are surrounded by such a great cloud of witnesses, let us throw off everything that hinders in the sin that so easily entangles and let us run with perseverance the race marked out for us. Now that verse is important to me because scripture differentiates something that hinders from sin. So what that tells us is sometimes there can be hindrances that aren't necessarily sin. So sin obviously we know would be the false doctrine. Now sometimes what can happen in my opinion is people can be in churches where it just, it doesn't fit based off of the conviction that they have versus leadership and there can be differences of opinion on certain matters or can be differences and it can culminate to the point where somebody says, okay, I just feel like culturally I don't fit in with the community here and because of that, that is a awakening point to maybe say, okay, maybe this isn't the church for me but I would like to clarify on this point that this doesn't necessarily mean you should leave. This means that there's an option to and so I've known people that are planted at a church and they say, this is my church. This is my community. Now sometimes it's a little bit of friction because they don't quite believe some of the particulars of maybe a message on a weekend. They're like, I disagreed with some of that but at the end of the day, they're there to serve the mission and they're there to serve the purpose so they're willing to stay. So this is kind of a point that it's not necessarily, hey, if you disagree in convictions you have to leave, you should leave but it's just the option that it might be a reason to. And it actually becomes so out of hand that it almost becomes division. So like you go to a church, what we're saying here on this point is that this is a sign that doesn't necessarily mean you have to leave but if your convictions aren't quite aligned that may be a green light to say, okay, you can leave if you want to but you don't have to. We're not talking about false doctrine here. We're talking about doctrinal disagreements. I'll give you an example. There was someone who worked with our ministry years ago still to this day, an amazing friend of mine. Our families are very close. Our daughters play with each other. They have play dates. They go from one house to the next. Just as close as families can be. We love each other's families. We honor each other's families but he had to leave the ministry because he didn't believe in the peripheral doctrine of being slain in the spirit. Now when I pray for people, many of you guys have seen the videos. When I pray for people, sometimes people experience the power of the Holy Spirit on them in a physical manifestation. Now, not everyone I know and love believes that that's biblical. They obviously don't think it's demonic. They obviously don't think it's heresy to that type of degree to where it's violating a fundamental faith but they believe, okay, maybe it's just emotionalism at worst. And I disagree with that obviously. I think, I know, I believe it's the power of the Holy Ghost moving through people but he couldn't work with our ministry anymore because he was a catcher. So he was ushering at our events and he was helping our events and just in his heart, he said, I just, I personally, I just don't believe this. And I said, you know what? Then you don't have to work with the ministry. And it wasn't like this. I didn't do that like in a mean way. Like, you know what? You don't have to work with the ministry. I didn't like throw anything at him when he told me that. It was just as simple as, okay, we're both brothers in Christ. We both agree on the essentials of the faith. We disagree on this slain in the spirit. And there were other things. He started to turn on the doctrine of speaking in tongues. I teach and believe in speaking in tongues. I practice and I teach deliverance and exorcism, prophecy, healing. You come to our services. You're going to see all of that because I believe those with a passion. He didn't. And so this wasn't a good fit anymore. So he had to leave not because we, he thought I wasn't a brother in Christ but because we didn't agree on the convictions that we have, the peripheral, the side doctrines, if you will. And so he had to leave the ministry and that was okay. It was all done on good terms. It wasn't, there was no bitterness. I didn't say bad things about him. He didn't say bad things about me. And to this day, we're still on great terms. In fact, Spencer, you'd be surprised. He's actually more so in like the, the Calvinist John MacArthur camp. Yeah. And we're very, you would think, okay, me, David Hernandez, you think, okay, David Hernandez, people label me as hyper charismatic. So, but we're very good friends. Why? Because we agree on Jesus. We agree on the essentials. Now, would he ever work with the ministry? No. Would I ever want him to? No. Why? Because it would just, there would just be conflict. Now here's the problem people have. They'll go into a church and let's say you go to a church, they don't lay hands on the sick. Okay. In our arrogance, sometimes we can say, well, they're just dead and they're, they're religious. Okay. Maybe, maybe, and that could be the case. Now, again, I believe in healing or maybe they just practice it in a different methodology than we're used to, right? But that still would probably be a good reason. Like, like for instance, I would not attend a church personally. I would not attend a church where they didn't believe in speaking in tongues, where they didn't lay hands on the sick, where they didn't cast out devils, where they didn't believe in the slain power of the Holy Ghost. That's me personally. But this doesn't mean that I can label them as, oh, they're false, they're a part of the devil's system. No, it's just a different part of the body who has a very different view on this. But again, salvation is simple. It's putting your faith and trust in Jesus. So there's going to be a lot of people in heaven who disagree with each other on a lot of different things that are very important to us. And that's what we're talking about when we say convictions. We're not talking about blatant sin. So again, to recap, so far, Spencer's given us, number one, the church preaches false doctrine. It's a violation of the fundamental. Two, you're called by God somewhere else. That's a release to go, obviously. Three, differences in convictions. Now, you had said, again, you differentiated this. Explain this again to us. You differentiated between number three being a sign that you have to leave versus a sign that you can leave. Yeah, no, absolutely. I think, you know, if you have a church that's preaching false doctrine, that's definitely a, hey, you should exit. You should leave that church. Same if God calls you to be somewhere else, of course. This number three one is more of a, it's a sign to consider. It's not a, hey, if you have a difference of conviction, if it, like David was saying, if it bleeds into the unity of the church, then yes, that probably is a sign that you should leave. However, you should leave knowing that just because you leave for reason number three doesn't mean that that's a bad church. And that's the distinction there is if you're leaving off of conviction preferences, you know, I personally, you know, talking personally, I love charismatic churches. I love when I see people with their hands raised and singing their hearts out and loud music. I love that. However, you know, there are people that I know that like more serious contemplative services. And because of that, we don't go to the same church, but at the end of the day, their church they go to is incredible and my church I go to is incredible. And so that's the distinction of should and can that I was making. And another point that I would want to add to this is the fact that if you're not careful, you might think you were sent there to change that church. Now it's possible. It's possible that you were sent there to change the church. But if that's going to happen, God's going to give you a place of influence there. When you go to a church where you don't align on convictions, either you have to submit to what God is doing there. And this is why again, I would say I would just leave. That's just me personally. I would just leave if they weren't practicing deliverance, healing, prophecy, right? That's me personally because well, what happened is there's no way I can't be me. There's no way I can't practice my faith. And so what would happen? For example, if I'm in that church and some demon starts manifesting, I'm going to go cast it out. The pastor may not like that that's happening in the service, but I'm going to say, hey, what do you want me to do? Leave that person there? Are they going to take them to the back and kick them out of the church? Or God knows what they're going to do. So in that instance, I would have to practice what I believe is the truth. So this is why we're suggesting it's probably a good idea to just consider maybe going somewhere else because if you think it's your mission to change that church, one of two things is going to happen.  You're going to be labeled as a sower of division. You don't want that. Now God may, okay, of course, there's option number three. God may actually use you to change that church. That can happen. I believe that. But more often than not, it just causes division, friction, people get labeled, the church splits. Some go with you. Some stay with the pastor. You get labeled as rebellious. The pastor gets labeled as religious and it just infighting and things that don't necessarily glorify God. When in fact, it's just better to say, okay, you know what? We believe differently on this. I have to be able to practice what I believe is the biblical way of carrying out my faith. We're not talking about essentials now. Just those differences. And this is why you guys, we have different denominations. People ask this all the time to me Spencer to say, okay, why do we have different denominations if we have one book? It's because we have different interpretations of that one book. And these are important issues to us. So look, when we get to heaven, there's going to be no more debating. We're going to find out, we're going to find out everyone who would, you know, this person was wrong. This person was right. This person was kind of right. This person was kind of wrong. When we get to heaven, it's all going to be figured out. Okay. But for now, we just have to stick to what our convictions are. And this is why again, me personally, I'm going to pray for the sick. I'm going to speak in tongues. I'm going to drive out demons. I'm going to prophesy. I'm going to let the power of the Holy Ghost flow as I believe he wants to flow. Now, this is not a reason to label someone as, oh, they're just, they're dead. Now, okay, maybe in the sense that there's no power demonstrations, yeah, if that's your definition of dead, yes, but that doesn't mean that God isn't working among them. And we have to be careful of that us versus them mentality, especially within the body of Christ. And I'm not talking about ecumenicalism. That would be to say that we should unite with other religions. I'm not saying that. We shouldn't do that. But within the body of Christ, there should be the true body, being those who believe the fundamentals. Spencer, any more thoughts on number three? No, I mean, I think you perfectly summed it up and summed it up in the sense of, you know, we rejoice with those who rejoice, you know, a win for the church is a win for the church. And we have to be looking at that collectively. We can't be so near-sighted to think that, you know, it's the thought of, okay, everything that I think is true. Now, obviously everything that I feel like is true. I feel it with my whole heart. However, of course, we're going to get to heaven one day and I'm going to say, oh, I guess I was wrong about that. And so to have the wisdom to say, I'm confident in what I know, but I also am confident that there may be things that I don't know and to step, take a step back and say, oh, the church at large, there has to be unity because why else would there, like you said, be so many denominations? Well, there's so many different people of different walks of life getting saved in different churches. And we can tell by the fruit of it that there is a place for everybody within the Christian church. And right off the bat there, I already know. I don't even have to look at the comments. I can tell you in the future, once this video is up for a week or two, there will be comments that say, Brother David, we cannot sacrifice truth on the altar of unity. And I get that. I understand that we must pursue the truth at all costs. But what I'm also saying is that the primary fundamentals of the faith, the foundational truth, who Christ is, His resurrection, salvation by faith, these things we believe together. And if you want to add those, like I was talking to Spencer today, too, we were at lunch. And I was explaining to him that, you know, I have some dear friends who preach some things on money that I would never preach. But that's their doctrine on money. And I'm not going to divide the body of Christ over money. Money's not that important. And so we have to remember we're talking about that foundation now. And then if there are differences on things like the layout of the house, on those details, on those specifics, okay, I'm advising. I don't know if Spencer would advise along with me. He may be a little more reserved. I don't know. But I would say personally, if there are those differences where Spencer is giving us this biblical truth of that permission to leave, I would take that. And I would take that route. Now, this is where you obviously get into some spiritual abuses. Where leaders who try to retain their numbers will tell you things like, well, if you leave, you're cursed. If you leave, you're not going to fulfill God's call. And here's how you can watch for the track record there. If everyone who leaves that church is labeled as rebellious, it's very likely that there's a problem with controlling leadership and not with rebellious people. But if you have a person who everywhere they go, they label the pastor as religious and they get labeled as rebellious, that's their reputation. Then it's very likely that that person is probably just really rebellious. But again, it's not about labeling people. This is just something to consider. And I want to say this to those of you who are in churches where you just sense that heaviness over you. There's that ultra controlling atmosphere. You don't need to be afraid of leaving an unhealthy church. You don't need to be afraid of leaving spiritual abuse. It's not biblical. And to get that in you, you have to realize they're using your sincere faith and belief against you to control you. And that's the very definition of witchcraft. Okay, Spencer, let's go to number four, my friend. Yes. Number four would be pastors and leaders that have a tolerance for sin. And this is really where we can introduce the fact that there is real church hurt that happens. There is real manipulation that happens. And that is sin. And my heart breaks for those of you that are watching that have gone through those real pains and real hurts. And this is one of those points where our God is a God of justice. And because of that, that's why we're saying you shouldn't feel bad leaving a church that clearly tolerates something like sin which would show its head again in things like abuse and manipulation. So I don't want anybody to think that we're defending that in any way. My heart breaks every time I read a story or somebody tells me about something that happened. But this is definitely a big reason why we should be able to exit a church if there's a tolerance for sin, which in my opinion, we have seen more of in today's world. And I touched on this a little bit earlier, but I really feel like right now there's the doctrine of grace as love and nothing else. And when we're so bent on teaching love without justice, then it gets really muddy and it gets really gray because what we have is we'll have leadership that begins tolerating sin in the sake of love, which isn't the gospel. And so that would be the number four reason. You know, we read in 1 Corinthians 13.6 that love does not delight in evil, but it rejoices with the truth. And so what we have to be careful of in the church is men, are we sacrificing the truth in the righteousness and the holiness of God all in the sake of this new God of love? And the reality is, if you're in a church where the pastors can't, let me just be real with you. So many preachers today trying to be clever are dancing around issues where the Bible is clear. It is not clever to dance around issues. It is not wise to give half answers. We, as preachers of the gospel, are to bring boldness and clarity to the conversation. So this idea of, oh, you know, my pastor's using wisdom. Your pastor, if they're dancing around sin issues, they're not using wisdom. They're doing PR. They're doing good marketing. They're trying to keep a good brand, a good name in the world. And that is why the scripture talks about friendship with the world being adversity with God. And so when you have preachers who blatantly just either celebrate it or kind of just allow and say, I'm not going to talk on it. Well, now you don't have pastors. You have self-help coaches. To where they can't even say the word sin. They don't say words like sin or they don't use the Lord's name, Jesus. They talk about God and goodness. They talk about wrongdoing and unhealthy things. And this is where we have to really have our discernment up. And remember, the Holy Spirit doesn't give vague discernment. The Holy Spirit doesn't whisper in your ear, something isn't right about this. Because the Holy Spirit's going to know exactly what's wrong. And he's going to be able to point that out. And this is why you have to be discerning based on the word and not your personal preference. There will be times when you will notice that the language is muddied and it's done so intentionally. And it's done so intentionally so that they don't have to take harsh stances on very specific issues and this way then kind of keep a wider audience, cast a wider net and appeal to the people who like their brand, so to speak. So this idea of tolerating sin, I don't even know if I would, Spencer, should we even call that pastoring?    And unfortunately that's, I think that's the reason that in the church today we see a lot of times such a tolerance force in sometimes within these churches is because again, the pastors are refusing to teach on it. And so if in the last, you know, couple months on a Sunday or whenever you go to church, if you haven't heard your pastor tell you something in service, hey, this is not okay to do, then to me that's like, okay, well this is, here's a little bit of a red flag because loving pastors are like loving fathers who discipline and to create boundaries, my pastor used the analogy where he says in a basketball game, in a football game, in a soccer game, the boundaries of the game make the game more fun and it make it entertaining because it would be chaotic without any boundaries. And so if your pastor isn't setting boundaries within the parameters of righteousness and sin, then there really is no guideline on how to navigate and how to live your life and really that is not a leading shepherd in a loving way. Okay, my friend, anything else to add? By the way, if you're receiving from this, I just want you to leave a comment right now, just write two simple words, I receive and I want you to put those words out there so that you let us know that the Holy Spirit is doing a work in you and I really believe that God is touching his people right now. Don't forget to also leave a like on the video and make sure you're subscribed to EncounterTV. Okay, give us number five, my friend. This is an interesting one. Yeah, so number five for what I said is where there is no vision. Now, this obviously comes from Proverbs 29, 18 that says without vision, the people perish. And this is another point, David, that it's not necessarily, hey, you should leave this church but this is something to look out for. I believe and you said that you did a video on this recently of leadership within the church and shepherding. The responsibility is to provide vision for the congregation. Where are we headed? What are we doing? I love our church's mission statement. You know, there's something to get behind but when you have a church that has no vision then it's hard to follow in that steps because you don't know where it's going. Now, we've talked a little bit about sometimes maybe God plants you somewhere, again, in a church to help and to provide that support and to really get that vision going. However, in my opinion, at the end of the day it does fall on the leadership to give vision, to give a place where there is hope that people can come and receive Christ and receive salvation and what is the church doing going forward? Now, when there isn't that, in my opinion, it's more of a reflection on leadership than anything else. And that's why I put it here, is any pastor that's worth getting behind and trusting and serving really is a pastor that has vision in their life because then you can trust that they are hearing from the Spirit, they are hearing from God and they are giving Godly counsel and wisdom to their church. You know what I've found, Spencer? That if they can't keep them there with a vision, they'll try to keep them there with guilt. If guilt is the only reason you're staying somewhere, it's very likely that they're not giving you any other reason to. So if guilt is the primary magnet, it's probably because they're lacking in vision. This is why I think, again, and I want to be clear to balance this, we're not bashing on pastors. And my heart goes out to my dad pioneered a church for years. And so my grandfather pioneered a church and started a church pastorate. My brother is pioneering a church pastoring it. So I know and I love and I respect and I honor the office of the pastor. I think pastors get bashed on so easily. You know how like in culture, you can bash on Christianity, but you can't bash on any other belief system. That's kind of like what it is in the five-fold. The pastors are the ones that everyone can attack, but no one really gets offended. Oh yeah, the pastor stuff. Your pastor's not doing this. Your pastor doesn't have power. Your pastor is failing in this way. And so I just want to say I love the pastor and I love the role of the pastor. And I think pastor, if you're watching, if you will see it from God's eyes, I am confident in saying that there's probably more fruitfulness than even you're aware of. Because I think sometimes pastors compare their churches to mega churches, not realizing that the average church in America is anywhere between 40 and 70 people. And pastors give their lives to these 40 to 70 people. So we're not bashing that, but there is something to be said of and there are hard truths we have to confront because if you expect people just to come and just be there just because the doors are open, you're not giving them much to do. People want to be challenged. People want to be given a vision. People want to be given a goal to go after collectively. And if a pastor's not clear on the vision and is not passionate about the direction that they're headed, neither will the people be. And so what actually begins to happen is the pastor loses passion, stops being clear about the vision. The people stop seeing why they're coming. Like why are we gathering? What's happening? What are we doing? And then to try to prevent people from leaving, it becomes controlling and guilt-ridden and that can be fixed. It's not beyond repair, but you can't put that on the people. Like Spencer is saying, that falls on leadership, that aspect of vision. And again, these are hard truths where people ask, okay, why isn't it fruitful? And it may be fruitful. So another thing to balance is to see it through God's eyes. Maybe you might not see it as fruitful, but maybe God does. But we have to be careful in examining these things. So that vision, that aspect of the vision, that does fall on leadership. And if there is no vision at that church, think about it. Would you want to give your next 20, 30 years to just coming to a gathering where they kind of just encourage each other a little? It's like this sad, heavy mood. You come in, there's really no challenge. There's really no reaching out. There's really no evangelism. There's no moving beyond the four walls of the church, as they say. And you want to give your life to that? I don't think most people would. They want to give their lives somewhere that it's going to do something. So again, this is not to bash the pastors, but this is to say, vision is important. And sometimes people of God, you may be going to a church, they're not even interested in change. They're not interested in vision. They're not interested in improving. They're not interested in reaching out. It's just, we have what we have, and that is where we're saying you should not fill that pool of guilt to say, I'm stuck here and because I, you know, and it's interesting how we kind of got that idea where if you attended the church once, suddenly you're stuck there for life. I don't know where that came from. That's not in the Bible, where, you know, I think that's like a tactic that, you know, preachers sometimes use to try to keep their congregation growing.  You're in that seat because God specifically planted you there. He may have ordained that moment, but that doesn't always mean that because they attended the church that they're therefore now committed for life to that. We're simply saying that vision is key. And if there is no vision, people aren't going to stay where they're going to perish. Yeah. Absolutely. Yeah. I mean, it's perfectly said in that way. And you know, like, like David said, pastors are the most underappreciated people on the planet in my opinion, and they are superheroes and any, like anybody can sign up to be do a lot of different jobs, but I always tell people when they, then when they tell me they want to be a pastor, I always say, Hey, are you called to it? Like, has God called you to be a pastor? Because if God hasn't called you to be a pastor, you're going to have a really difficult time having longevity in it because it's so hard and it's so taxing. And there is a burden that pastors carry that none of us will ever understand.  Like it doesn't have to do with how many people are coming on a Sunday or Saturday service. What it has to do is, man, are you freshly hearing from the spirit of God and are you leading faithfully? Faithfully has nothing to do with numbers. It has everything to do with the posture of our heart and what we're willing to do with God has called us to do. Measure your success, not by the number of people that attend your service. Measure your success by whether or not you're obeying God. Right. And I think what happens sometimes, and I don't know why. This is a little bit of a tangent, but I really sense strongly that someone's watching that needs to hear this. You know, sometimes preachers, we get the wind knocked out of us. Something happens. A church split, an accusation that's unfounded, a twisting of the words that you said in a sermon. And sometimes we, as preachers, get the wind knocked out of us and it's hard to keep moving forward. And if we're so busy measuring our success by the parameters that the world gives us, by the metrics given to us by secular culture, then of course we may never see the beauty of what God is doing in our ministries, His ministries that we steward. But I want to encourage that pastor.  I haven't been laying out a clear vision. I have lost the passion. I really believe God wants to light that fire again. And I believe God can bring that passion to life, but it's going to take personal revival. You've been giving, giving, giving, giving. And the reason you're titled, this is going to sound like a criticism, but it's actually just a spiritual loving correction. If you're exhausted and you just, you're just, you're operating out of the place of frustration.  That's the work of the enemy. It's time to light that fire again. And you watch as that passion is renewed. My dad used to say this because he would often say, you know, my dad experienced revival in the church he was pastoring and then they experienced a church split. It was, it was a really rough time for the family, a church split. And for Sunday after Sunday, they were having 50 people, 40 to 50 people, 40 to 50 people and they had come from hundreds. They were like, it really within a matter of weeks, everything changed. And he began to become just kind of discouraged in that season.  And from that moment on, he determined in his heart, Lord, if you've called me to pastor these 50 people and only 50 people, then I'm going to be the best pastor of 50 people that I could possibly be and I will give my life to these 50 people. And from there, they began to experience revival again. But that's what it's going to take, a recalibrating, a restructuring in your heart, if you will. And I know we're talking about signs to leave a church, but there may be a pastor there going, you know what, I think I may be, I think I may, if I'm being honest, I think I may be giving people reasons to leave. And that's hard to admit, but in that humility, you find a turning point. And in that turning point, you find the renewal. Spencer, let's pray. I want you to pray first and then I'm going to pray. Just to recap real briefly, Spencer gave us five really amazing keys today. Signs that you know that it's time to leave the church or that you're released to leave the church, not necessarily all of them are that you should. Number one, your church preaches false doctrine. That's an obvious just bolt out the door. We're talking about violations of the fundamentals of the faith. Number two, you're being called by God elsewhere. Watch for those patterns though of constantly being called by God everywhere. I promise you God doesn't change his mind at all. Number three, difference is in convictions. These are side doctrines, but still very important to you. Like for me, I believe in speaking in tongues. I will not attend the church that doesn't blame them. Does that mean the other church is fake and I'm the only real one? No, just means that's a difference enough for me to go to another church. Number four, the pastors or the leaders have a tolerance for sin. That's not even a nuanced issue. They have a tolerance for sin. Don't walk run out of those doors. Number five, there is no vision. Sometimes you may be called to maybe you may be feeling I'm going to stick it out for a year or two or a few months to try to see if I can help them ignite a vision. But at some point you got to find someone where you can serve Spencer. Will you pray for that one watching who is wrestling with these questions and then I'll pray right up to you. Absolutely. Lord, we just come to you humbly. We thank you Lord that you are good and you are faithful. And right now I just I pray for the person that's listening that has been struggling with this idea, this decision. I pray one that you would give them peace Lord that they wouldn't feel guilty and you would lift that burden off of them. But also Lord, would you impart wisdom into them? This can never be an easy decision for us especially in times when our hearts are conflicted with loyalty and friends and pastors that maybe we like or don't like. But I just pray that through all of that all the ancillary peripheral things would you just insert your wisdom Lord that goes beyond any of our understanding and help in these decisions. God, I thank you that the church as you intended it is a righteous bride. And I thank you that you are calling your people to serve an incredible church to serve under leadership that we would advance the gospel beyond what any of us have seen in today's age. Lord, I pray that the church would be the vessel that you would just impart your revival into the world. God, that you would do what you want to do through us but because we are willing to stand in the gap and really serve faithful churches with all of our hearts. So I just pray that you would give us discernment you would give us wisdom and you would give us understanding in these difficult times. I pray right now that your presence would be sense. Father, I thank you that lives are being tripped. I thank you Holy Spirit that you're beginning to speak to me and I pray that you would cause this to be a season of come or take that confusion. Take that uncertainty and ground them in. Now right now, I believe the Holy Spirit is speaking. He's touching lives right now. There is a flow of that anointing. I don't want you to turn this off because I truly do believe that the anointing of the Holy Spirit is flowing and as that anointing flows, there are bondages being, mindsets being trapped, flow of the power of the Holy Spirit. Refresh and Lord, refresh the pastors I pray. I want everyone online right now. Pray that God will refresh pastors too. Lord, let them not be pastors who give people reasons to leave. Lord, let them be faithful to what you've called them to do. Reignite that flame I pray. 19, name of Jesus. I want you to say it because you believe it. Say, name it. Now I want to talk to you about a couple more things. So whether you're watching live or on the replay, don't turn this video off just yet. Just a couple more things here. Spencer, first of all, if someone wants to get ahold of your ministry or check out the work that the Lord is doing with you. First of all, guys, you can actually go to the description of the video here on YouTube and you can click on the description on the video on Facebook. But Spencer, how else can they get ahold of you? Yeah, besides YouTube, I'm most present on Instagram. I do a lot of different commentaries and talk about current events that are going on on there. So you can find me on Instagram by just searching my name. It'll come up as at Spencer knock. So right now I'm actually looking even at his YouTube channel. So you can go right now. So check him out on Instagram. You can also do it on YouTube, Facebook, I'm sure. But Spencer Nakamura, it's right there on the screen right there. So search Spencer Nakamura on YouTube guys, spirit family. I've been told this. This is what this is what my guests say about you. Okay, I'm going to I'm going to let you in on a little secret. We have conversations about you, the community, when I have my guests on and my guests all tell me the same thing. They say the biggest response they get, they do all the live streams, all the TV shows. They say the biggest response that they get is from the spirit family. Like that's the biggest spike for subscribers, the biggest influx of financial support. And I want you to pour out the love of God on this ministry. Look, we always talk about how we want God to raise ministries, God raise ministries, God raise ministries. And then God does and where's the support? But I know it's different with the spirit family. You are generous. You are supportive. You are loving. So I'm asking you, the spirit family, go to his YouTube channel right now. I don't want you all to subscribe to his channel. And let's just pray for him. Let's bless him and let's believe the best for his future in Christ. I believe that God is going to raise him as a voice for this generation. I believe God's going to you. I believe you're going to be hearing a lot more from Spencer Nakamura in the future. So keep an eye on his ministry. I believe the future is bright for him. Now, having said that, I want to talk to you real briefly here about supporting a project that is very, very close to being done. Now, many of you know, some of you don't, that we're doing something called Project ETV. And Project ETV quite simply is an expansion of our media ministry. Basically, we're building another headquarters, another studio. And the reason we're doing this is because when we build studios and headquarters, that actually helps to expand the reach of the ministry. Bottom line, this project through media is going to help us to win more souls, build more believers, and see more people set free than ever before.  This time will be no different. But we want to finish this project this month. We're talking the month of October. The construction should be finishing up. We want to finish the fundraising for it. Of course, we're still going to build the set, put in the lighting. There's some housekeeping to do, but we want to finish the fundraising portion of phase one for this project by the end of October. And we need your help to do it. So if you haven't done so already, I'm asking you to support Project ETV right now. If you have done so already, I'm asking you with no pressure, just out of the love for the gospel, please, if you would consider sewing again into the project as the Holy Spirit leads you. But again, we don't give because of guilt or greed. We give because of the gospel. So that's just something I'm asking my supporters to do. Look, we're all excited about this. We all believe in the future of this ministry. So this is something we're doing together. Now, maybe you're watching this stream years after or even days after we've completed the fundraising, that's okay. You can still give a one-time gift or become a monthly ministry supporter to help us continue doing all the things that we're doing generally. So if you give while we're still in the phase of Project ETV, phase one, then that gift will go toward Project ETV. If you give after we complete that project, it's going to go to the general fund and that's just something I have to say to make sure we cover our bases on the legal side. So give now to Project ETV, help us finish this. We want to finish it this month. I know we can do it. Look, guys, I don't know what the exact total is that we need. I think it's just under 500,000 that we need to finish this project. And I'm looking at our subscribers like on YouTube. We have almost 700,000 subscribers, 694,000 subscribers. Facebook, 800,000 followers. I'm looking over at Instagram. Instagram has like 125,000. TikTok has like 150,000. If all of our supporters just came together and did what they could, this month, the month of October, then we would see every single penny come in and then some. So I'm asking you now, big or small, you're giving counts.  So it doesn't matter. No, it matters. Everything matters. But again, go to davidhernandezministries.com to give toward this project. Let me show you some photos here of the progress so far. And again, this message is for those watching live and on the replay. This right here, you can just leave it on this photo here, Tim, and then bring it back to me when I call for it. This right here is the main studio room. As you can see, the lighting grid has now gone up. They're going to do some painting. They got a lot more painting to do in there. We're going to put carpet. That's where the set's going to go. All the lighting cans and whatever you want to call them. I don't know what the official term is, but all the cans and lighting, they're going to go right up there up on that grid. That's where we're going to have the studio audience section, the seating. There's going to be some sound treatment in that room. There's already sound proof, but then there's going to be sound treatment. One blocks the sound from coming into the building and the other makes sure that the sound sounds nice on camera. So I'm asking you to support this project, get behind it whether you're watching live or on replay. And again, I'm going to say this one more time just for the sake of clarity. If you give while we're still in phase one of Project ETV, it's going to go toward Project ETV. But if you give after phase one is done, so maybe you're watching this, I don't know, 10 years from now, and you give, then that will still go to the ministry. It'll just go to the general fund. I want to say that just make sure we cover all our bases and we want to be a ministry of integrity and transparency. So you know what you're giving toward. But either way, all gifts one time or monthly are going to help us get there. So I'm asking you today, right now, go to davidhernandezministries.com, support this ministry, get behind this project. And I know that together we're going to win more souls, disciple more believers than ever before.  Make sure you also check out how isolation slowly destroys your faith and how to reconnect. So maybe you're saying, okay, I know I should be in church. I know what signs to look for. I want to get planted, but I don't know how to come out of isolation. And I don't know what kind of damage isolation is doing to my spirit. Make sure you watch this teaching. I'm going to go in depth. We're going to cover that. And I know you're going to receive breakthrough in that area.