You know the year 2011 I Just want to thank you for your Taiwanese people came Rush to the affected area and then did a lot of help Yeah, yes, and and my my own First and second dose of AstraZeneca I also must thank you the people in government of Japan for generously donating those I Was very grateful. That's my freedom of travel and someone could be in short thanks to this very kind gesture You got a second shot already no third shot now. Oh, yeah, my booster was Medigen, it's a Taiwan local Product, but the first two were AstraZeneca Okay, okay If you travel, yes, looking forward to come to Japan. Oh, yes. Yes, please I I don't know if I but I I wrote a book last year and this is called the digital fascism and It was like a wake-up call for Japanese people to remember What's the really meaning of a democracy? Before the corporate power Takes it over The the social sector and everything so Your concept of a digital democracy Was huge inspiration for me and for everyone in the world to to find the new way to forward with the digital democracy and in the digital Technology so The first of all, what I wanted to ask is that during pandemic How are civil liberty in Taiwan maintained with the, you know tracing contact tracing and Collecting all the people's data and everything How could you maintain that freedom? So I will say first that Taiwan did not enter a state of Emergency in the past couple years So whatever measures we take must be pre approved Including the regulatory and budgetary approval by the parliament Concretely speaking it means that what we are doing must be pre Existing before the pandemic we use technologies that already exist before the pandemic We prefer those because they are more easily understandable and explainable But also because the cyber security and privacy Parameters are easier to reason about if you have a system that has been going on for a decade or two decades It's much more easy to analyze than something that's just invented during the pandemic That's my first point the second point is that we use Privacy enhancing technologies you mentioned contact tracing For example, we introduce a SMS based contract tracing method Where a person can choose to it's not mandatory they can still write on paper They can choose to scan the QR code, but with no app download just with their mobile phones built-in camera and send a SMS of 15 random digits corresponding to the venue to the 192 to which is a toll-free number and What it does is that the venue learns nothing about This customer because the customer's own phone is sending to their own telecom operator And this data is not shared with the venue owner on the other hand the mobile phone carrier While they do know the phone number of course because they issue the SIM card in first place They do not transmit that data anywhere and they know nothing about the venue because the 15 digit Random code is only known to the customer and the venue, but not the telecom operator so through this multi-party Arrangement nobody has the complete piece of puzzle so to speak and the government never received the data until Someone gets infected and we have to do contact tracing in which time only the Authenticated contact tracer get to piece together the data and their contact tracing effort are Themselves recorded so that anyone with their phone can check in on a website SMS that 192 to the GOV that TW that which municipalities which contact tracer have accessed their record In the past 28 days, of course after 28 days all the records are deleted and so there's mutual accountability There's decentralized storage. There's privacy enhancing technologies built upon the ideas of QR code and SMS which all existed for decades before the pandemic and therefore easy to reason ends To adapt so if my phone doesn't have a camera I can also manually text the 15 digits in again very transparent in what the technology is doing Wow, so there is a two-way accountability That's pretty new to Because usually the the only one way right the state can see you But the citizen cannot see How and when their data Access and use right and that that created a lot of problems So the two-way accountability did it exist before COVID-19? Yes Yes We have the national healthcare system which was Digitalized with IC cards similar to your my number cards around 2003 by 2004 The electronic records are already Digitalized and we made sure that whenever a pharmacist a clinician or a nurse or so one Have to access your IC card. They have Their own IC card and the institution's IC card, so that's three cards And so all transactions are recorded in a record So anyone can go back and see what the other two cards are when their own card enters a transaction Again, this enabled me to use my phone using the national healthcare insurance express app to look at all the Diagnosis all the prescriptions and so on and if there is errors and so on I get to know and correct them in the National Healthcare Insurance so that idea has been around since at least 2003-2004 and by say 2014-2015 it's already part of daily life that people would check their mobile phone for a two-way accountability When it comes to national health methods Wow so since it's all transparent Always you could trace What are your data balls and who access to it and when so that makes people? Trust the government right about How they use the data I Think it means the government trusts the people To to hold us accountable The people may or may not trust the government. Maybe they look at a record of SMS that when I do to and decide that they trust the venue owner more than they trust the telecom And that's their choice. We're not forcing anyone or they say They already have to stamp The seal like people in Japan, right? Many people have a seal with their name on it and there's advanced Version of the seal that carries its own ink so you don't have to carry an ink pad around, right? So some people prefer that they just put their family name And the contact number on this self-refilling seal and they just want to stamp their way in into venues They say it's quicker than scanning a QR code. They're probably right It takes half a second to stamp and takes maybe two seconds to scan the QR code And we're not forcing people who believe in ink and seal technology to switch to digital technology Oh, so you're actually giving a choice But before elderly people, you know, maybe not everyone Is wants to do a digital right away. Some people, you know, prefer analog, right? We have the same situation in Japan But as long as you give a choice to them And that's up to them. Yes, and we strongly believe if we do not have a alternate choice Then the digital would be I wouldn't say fastest but authoritarian it will be forcing people to adapt to digital technology instead of Assisting people to lower their risk and save their time with digital technology, so it wouldn't be assistive It will be authoritarian and we always want to focus on the assistive part Well, that's that's wonderful because I remember that I was in a New York City When the 9-11 happened And right after 9-11 It was that because of an emergency situation. It was like that gives some power to the government to do anything over Constitution or law What I was very impressed by your story is that Taiwanese government didn't use that. I mean you you guys did it within the framework Yes, all right. Yes We've never done like the president's order that takes effect and later the Parliament approves it We've not done that in the past couple Yes, and the reason why is that we strongly believe that The people need to be part of the equation Encountering the pandemic if people just follow orders without understanding the scientific reason why and so what it creates a Fatigue and distrust very quickly which may be effective on the short run But when a pandemic goes on and on it's actually a strong drawback because people get tired following things. They don't understand That's exactly what's been happening in the US and in Europe. There's a strong demonstration Anti those All the European America it's it's it's unbelievable and so speaking of transparency of information I had a Taiwan citizen participate in pre-election debates and do fact-checking Yes, in real time by themselves, right? Yes, that's correct even middle schoolers. Can you talk a little bit about that? Yes um, of course, so Fact-checking is part of the media competence Curriculum in Taiwan and we want the students to learn not just be the consumer of media information Which is the literacy part, but rather Contribute to the media landscape, which is the competence part, right? Literacy is when you read and competence is when you write, right? So the the the main difference here is that the newsroom must be seen As early as primary or middle school To be something that everyone can contribute to So we have a lot of civic fact-checking Mechanisms built by the social sector not by the government the government just amplify those spaces for participation So think Wikipedia but in real time So people know for example, there's the co-facts for collaborative fact-checking group Is a g0v or gov0 initiatives project where people can report on their line instant messenger The trending rumors which may or may not be true But instead of just the press fact-checking them It's everyday citizens including students They can't provide fact-checking material and they can't help identify the ones that are getting the most viral with a highest r value so to speak And then the professional fact-checker take their contributions and write their professional fact-checking reports, which ends up You know like the spam detection Puts the incoming email to the junk mail folder not the inbox The fact-checking by say the taiwan fact-checking center results in not taking anything down But a prominent notice that this has been fact-checked as disputed And also this label that Advises people to think twice before sharing it more so lowering Is r value we call it notice and public notice and the notice part is of course contributed by Everyone or the citizens and it works in real time too during the presidential forum and debate Wow, that's really fascinating. So, um Is it possible to use co-facts to stare people in a certain direction for the political purpose or any Editing for their own purpose Is it possible for anybody can get in and do that? um There is a community standard. It's just like wikipedia Where all the source materials are evaluated and posted But if it's about personal political opinion or feelings and so on that is not the part of the co-facts Purview so what people can do is just adding more pieces to the puzzle But it's designed so you cannot take away things From the collaborated facts around any particular item So, uh, I think it's all part of the design of the space if you make it very easy to for example Do personal attacks and so on then of course those space could be polarized and toxic But if you design a space so that people just contribute material But with no way to follow someone or to reply to a threaded conversation and things like that Then it become very difficult for trolls to take control Right, right. Wow That's great because uh, you know, like for example in us the bias Of fact-checking by major high tech companies became an issue in the congress and They sued the company and It was a big issue and in japan For example voices that differ from the government or who policy um A lot of times often labeled as conspiracy theories so people citizens of kind of afraid of passing their opinion Because they're they're very worried about being judged but um Co-fact is that all citizen based and it's like a wikipedia, right? Right. It's loosely modeled after wikipedia, but focusing on fact-checking But that's great. That's um great. What about the how do you deal with the social media because uh, you know social media services have a virtual monopoly You know on news they can if they wanted they could silence the opinion or uh from certain individuals Without anyone noticing these days like uh, they wanted if they wanted to take a sudden opinion or That can be done about the big, you know, that that's on the business model Like for example, my twitter sometimes even if i post it And it's nobody could see it Without me knowing Right. It's called shadow banning. So so do you mean social media is a category or do you mean just twitter and facebook? Uh, let's say twitter and facebook like gaffer Yeah, because it's it's very different from our take of social media in in our landscape People prefer to talk about political or public affairs on the social sectors version of social media So, uh, for example the ptt which is entirely open source is collaboratively governed everything on ptt Is not for profit purpose because it's a student pet project for more than 25 years now And the operation cost is mostly subsidized by the national Science and technology council And so on so basically The social media in taiwan's sense means that is a collaborative media maintained operated by the social sector by the volunteers And so, um, of course, we still have people using facebook for entertainment and posting cat pictures And things like that, but we would not say that they have a monopoly On the attention that people has especially when it comes to public affairs when people want to do petitioning Participatory budgeting voting on presidential hackathon. They use the public infrastructure Maintained by the government in the digital space So the civic infrastructure like ptt and public infrastructure like the join platform They also enjoy a lot of visits Not at all monopolized by the gaffa So I think that's a a real difference in the kind of investment in the public and civic infrastructures and if you invest heavily in the civic and public infrastructures You won't face the dilemma of people wanting to hold a town hall conversation But all they have as a choice Is the nightclub in the entertainment sector with loud music smoke field room private bouncer addictive drinks and advertisements, right? But that's not strictly speaking the problem of the entertainment sector, right? I have enormous respect to for the entertainment sector If we don't invest in public parks campers and town halls Right, so so you're saying that it's not how you do that. It's where Yes, you you exactly yes And also if there is a choice Yes, or or even a district, right? People prefer to go to the campus when they want to learn things the public library And we want to have a book club or something But if all they have Is the dis entertainment launch bar versus another dance club Well, it's not really a choice when you only have the entertainment district That's true. And and that's that's very important that And We should invest more money on the public Bases, right? Yes Not just the digital but all, you know, because in Japan we look we are losing public Many many public places like the public library Less and less space public space where people Can speak freely Without worrying about it without any worry Of being hacked or being attacked Yeah, I think the peer pressure that you mentioned, right? Like the implicit threat of being shadow banned Right or being Ignored or things like that. I think these are kind of the efforts that we put into designing a safe space It's indeed to ensure that people are free from those worries Yeah, yeah, definitely that that's definitely something we can adapt in japan I think and It seems that civic hackers are very smart and quicker To find provide public records and original data, you know, I'm an investigative journalist and it takes time To get those original data usually and and so nowadays I think all, you know, civic hackers are much faster than me, so What's my role now? You know, this era, what do you think of the role of journalist? I think uh journalism is to the disinformation crisis In the disinformation crisis in the infodemic journalism plays the same role as public health plays in epidemiology situations such as the pandemic so journalism as a practice like fact-checking and Aware of the framing effects providing an angle Following a story offering a perspective balancing the views and so on all these journalistic practices are like the um, I don't know hand washing and wearing mask and and so on it's it's a mental hygiene Right, because if one gets the journalistic practice in their natural habits, they would not be infected by the virus of the mind. Uh, that is the conspiracy theories based on unfounded ideologies and things like that So instead of just a few people practicing journalism protecting all other people is an old gateway Gatekeeper, right theory Nowadays, it's impossible to gatekeep because everyone with a phone is their own media and we can't gatekeep them from themselves And as you mentioned all the civic hackers citizen scientists armed with their Phone they can just start live streaming on on youtube or something And then they become their own broadcasting station There's no gatekeeper. No editor. No fact-checker to to help them Right, so so I think our hope here is not so that we take back Their choice of platforms or take back their mobile phone with live streaming capability. It's impossible Just as we don't do lockdowns in Taiwan But we do want to make sure as we remain free in our traveling Everyone understands the importance of washing their hands thoroughly get vaccinated wearing mask and so on which means journalism must become a general practice for everyone with a live streaming account You know, which is why the media competence, not just literacy is in our basic education So I believe journalism serves a very important role nowadays But its hope is to get everyone becoming Participators in journalism civic journalism So that all the civic hackers learns to use the force for the good side of the force the Light side of the force not the dark side of the force which I'm sure I have more cookies But we want to use the force for good Oh, well, that's that's very encouraging to me and all the journalists because you know, um These days a lot of journalists have a dilemma that Oh, you know in japan listen less people read a newspaper and um or You know like a paper thing Or if not even tv and everybody's focusing on their own that's right. Yes So the professional journalist It's We are always under the pressure that we have to submit we have to post our article But there is a so much competition there and it has to be faster It has to be sensational instead of You don't you don't have time enough time to do the good investigative journalism because everything is so fast and replace a new New thing every day new subject every day But I still believe that investigative journalism needs Yeah If you fund your work based on advertisements Then of course you need to work to the pace of advertisements, which as you mentioned is getting much faster much more personal and also Much more relying on the impulse of a small screen because when people read on a small screen They don't do long form because the screen doesn't encourage long form Right. So so all these factors made a Journalism difficult to practice if you only have This very limited space to work in so to speak but in taiwan Some of the best investigative journalism work are not funded by advertisement at all. They're funded by crowdfunding by subscription by the Social sector that is to say people voluntarily Donating money in order to get better investigative journalism and so on. I believe that is Freeing the investigative journalist from The temple of the advertisers and instead if you look at the investigative journalism awards in the past couple A few years in taiwan, many of which went to the investigative journalist Belonging to not for profit Efforts and not for profit efforts funded by the social sector is every bit As legitimate. I would say more legitimate than the state when it comes to what's actually Happening and so on. So for example, I read and indeed contributed to before entering the cabinet the reporter And I'm just pasting the link to you and they do really good investigation work without any advertisement and all and I pasted because they also publish the the Mandarin translation of the celebrated How to be an investigative journalist book? So that they want their readers to become investigative journalists Oh, that's that's wonderful. And I'm hoping that maybe in the digital era all those Qualified high quality investigative journalists can make a good network Mm-hmm. Yes, definitely definitely and and I think they're also figuring out ways to work beyond this small Space for example They focus a lot on the podcast format and on the podcast format. You're allowed to do long form much more easily Yeah, yeah, I do that too every month for 16 minutes. Ah, okay. Yeah, that's like um, um, membership Podcast And uh, so it's good for me. It's a good training for me to keep quality because they're paying for me Yes, definitely. Yeah. Yeah, that that's That I agree and um, so in Taiwan the people trust, um, civic journalism. I mean Civic sector information more than just let's say from tv or from the government Well, they trust it if they get to participate in it or their neighbors than their friends and families participated in it and and that's the The the main promise of citizen science and civic technology, right? If you don't like it. Well, come in and improve it So, uh, I wouldn't say it's everyone but people who want to participate They increasingly see that oh, they can also shape The contributions the way they like and instead of just on a master narrative So I think more and more people are looking at citizen science and civic infrastructure as a way to to correct the the injustices they see And so on we've got a lot of people for example measuring air quality like pm 2.5 on their schools on their balconies and so on and that culminated in the anti-air pollution parade and that Really changed the environmental policy in taiwan or people using water boxes to measure water quality and pollutions using their own way to analyze the industrial plants the efforts Of containing pollution whether it has worked or not on agricultural lands and that resulted in A recent referendum in xinzhu that Wants to change the way that waterway works and so on. So yeah, if you find there's some injustice participatory Journalism and civic technology are now seen as a legitimate way to effect change Oh, that makes me so excited That that's very Pretty way to look at it Speaking of pro being proactive in this your democracy What are you, you know What role do you think the teachers can play for this your democracy because in japan there is an opinion that now the government is Providing a tablet To the elementary school. Oh, yeah. Yes.  So that's going to eliminate the need for a life teacher Okay, uh, so are they actually doing that? I mean replacing books and teachers No, they are um thinking about Replacing a public servant the number of public servants Ah, I see I see, you know, I mean in a way it's true, but um, I I'm not sure if like Digital textbook or digital application Learning application can replace Yeah, and and and I think it's it's a difficult to to um Reason about because when you say replacement people immediately think oh, oh, they're out of a job now, right? But but I think their job is not just to read text to a student Or to evaluate their homework, right? Most of the teacher's job is actually to care To to discover uh to learn together with the students, which is strictly speaking interpersonal work It's not automatable. Uh, and so, um, when we look at technology that are assistive assistive technology It means that it enhanced the the dignity and the effectiveness of interpersonal communication for example This is a assistive technology I don't see you very well without this technology, but I wouldn't say my eyeglass replaced me or my eyes That would not even make sense So so to me the digital technology like tablets are like this eyeglass When I need it I put it on when I don't need I certainly don't wear it When I don't need it and Still I remain the the main initiator of the actions instead of You know looking at you for 10 seconds and then suddenly an advertisement comes and I have to waver 10 seconds Too close to look at you again Right, right. It must be transparent to me aligned to my interest and accountable to me To and and that's what we look at when we design our own tablet in classroom Projects we don't for for even a second imagine replacing teachers with the tablets Oh, yeah, that that's something um Many teachers in in the u.s. Or japan or europe Worry that you know once you give the tablet to the student. It's very difficult to To stop them from Looking at all those SNF and Netflix and youtube It's actually very easy to to yeah because so I think one of the main ideas is that the tablets are there for the classrooms use So what it must be saying is It only runs the applications that are collaboratively curated by the classroom Of course, if a student writes a application that helps the class The tablet can run it of course. It's a programming environment, but it must not run things that are for example You mentioned like facebook or twitter. It must not run facebook or twitter during class anymore than A student is allowed to bring a hard liquor During classes start drinking it It's not a restriction of freedom per se. It's the space's own norms in using people's Like focus attention on a common matter So in taiwan if a class decides to use a tablet and it's not mandatory If they collaboratively decide then they also must collaboratively curate the list of application that runs In a particular classroom So so So again, there's a choice. It's not a mandate. That's right Oh, that's very important. Um Our uh digital minister just announced a couple couple days ago. She said Uh now the state the government is centralized all the data of children um through um digital device like digital education and um From hearing the story Of taiwan or your experience I'm not sure if uh centralizing all information in the hand of the state Is um is safe And I think it affects to trust between the government and the citizen Yeah, I I think, uh At least of course the the student must have a full copy, right? So, uh instead of Centralizing meaning a single point of failure. You can't think of centralization as providing backups That's the first is the kind of bottom line And the second is the mutual accountability What the state does with the data is it just for statistics? Which would be fine or is it actually for Personalized messages which needs then more attention to correct the data bias or whether it's selling advertisement I don't think your digital ministry is at doing that But there needs to be a limit uh to what the state is legally allowed to do and a way for mutual accountability For the citizen to hold a state to account Oh, okay. So that that's something we can do about it Um Let's go back to the education and you said, um Now in the digital era, we should teach Um medical competency rather than medical literacy media. Yes. Uh-huh. Yeah literacy. Um How does how do you do that in taiwan at school? What kind of media competency? Uh, there there are many things that we do. Uh, and Fortunately is all in a single website. So I'm just pasting you the website Right, uh, and uh, it's the media competence resource website and it has the educational resources of the publications And also the so-called seed teachers So that you can also consult these people And many contributions from the social sector in collaboration with many Entertainment sector social media companies and so on. So I would not read What's on the website because it's all on the website. I believe it's friendly to machine translation Okay, I'll take a look at it. Thank you and You talked about your glasses and your body before and you know, like a virtual reality evolves right now and you know become more and more like extension of a body and What should we teach our children so that they do not lose their ability to to feel their body or to think by themselves because I think it's Once we start thinking that that's extension of body that affect our being proactive or think deeply or you know I don't know. I mean I may I may be Thinking that or feeling that the eyeglass is part of my eyes now because I don't think about my eyeglass very much And and if I wear contact lenses, I feel it even less So so that there are a certain piece of technology that we do allow themself to kind of blend in with our body image And society has largely accepted that I don't think there is anything wrong really with thinking your eyeglass or contact lenses as part of your eyes During during daytime. So so I think it must be talked and discussed in a case by case basis that is to say if a piece of technology is Truly assistive Meaning that it's 100% aligned to my interest and not some advertisers if it's 100% accountable in that if this Eyeglass is broken. I get really to to fix it myself or take it to a repair person down the street I don't have to reverse engineers algorithm I don't have to pay tens of millions of dollars or cyan d a right. I can just repair it myself Right and when technology goes to this degree of accountability and alignment I don't think there's a problem of thinking as part of our body I think the the problem stems from Essentially that it's colonizing our body right forming a addictive behavior But with no control or indeed participation from me if I Build a addiction to touch screens wiping and then looking at advertisement Impulse buying and so on. It's not me anymore. Right. It's me being colonized by some external force Right. So so I believe we need to let our children know that there are a certain class of technologies That inherently have negative mental health Externalities builds addictive behavior that lets you become colonized easily and we need to talk about this Exactly as how we talk about smoking cigarettes Or drinking liquor To the children that is to say it's bad for your health And it's bad for everybody else's health too if you overdo it And which is why we encourage you to Build healthier habits instead of relying on addictive substances to comfort yourself and so on And so we need to start talking about these but when they are adults And they decide to socialize a little bit and drink a little bit of sake and so on I think that's their freedom, but they must be already in a mature Sense of mind that they are drinking it Fully knowing is repercussions not over drinking it. Certainly not driving after drinking it And and then of course they may use twitter. I guess our facebook right, so that's a good choice when it comes to adults, but um I had a this discussion with this professor the other day. Um, he's a neural professor Perfect professional And we were talking about um letting Like three years old Swipe the smartphone And and how it affects to to their brain. Uh-huh. Yeah, and um Do you do anything like I I try not to touch the on And that's pretty necessary because I know it's very hard not to oh you are is this a mobile phone? Yeah, it's a mobile phone. It's 4g It runs it runs twitter if it must, uh, but it's not a touch screen Oh, yeah, so so it's like an old style mobile phone. Yeah, it's styled after a old style mobile phone But it's actually a smartphone So it's a smartphone without a touch screen so to speak and uh in my other phone Which is a touch screen. I always use this Uh to interface with it. Oh, right So so it's either with a stylus or with no touch screen at all If we don't purpose I do it on purpose Object between that and yeah, because when I interact through a a keyboard, uh, like like this Or interact with the stylus. Um, I am intentional. I must think about where I'm going And so it it's not uh habit forming. It's not swiping But if I start just randomly swiping then I lose control, right? So and I don't think it's just me Exactly I know I know and and and and frankly speaking. I've never used a pda without a stylus or keyboard So so I use palm pilot. I used uh sharp sorrows. Um, this is galaxy note And uh ipad with a apple pencil So always with always with a stylus because when I find myself Using something that has neither a keyboard or a stylus. I become addicted very quickly and I don't like that You are If you'll get addicted that easily then Everybody else. Well, I don't know about that. But but what I'm saying is that uh, I uh like I wore my mask I wash my hands So I don't believe in my superiority of anti bodies. Uh, and so on I don't believe in my inherent power to counter the virus I'm as vulnerable to the coronavirus as everyone else. So so that's why I took the vaccine and watched my hands Where I mask I had that um, you dropped out of junior high school, right because you had nothing more to learn you thought Well, I want to focus on research, but yes Right, right. Yeah, I read that and but as an adult, uh, you've been working on um Educational reform, right?  Yes based on my experience in the alternative or experimental education. Yes Beautiful. That's beautiful. And what was the best, uh, educational reform that you did? Well, I think, uh, certainly, uh, my contribution, uh, during the basic education reform that, uh, went into effect in 2019 Was making sure that everyone in the society knows what's going on when we redesigned the curriculum I, uh, typed the transcript myself of all the curriculum committee meetings For the first couple meetings I went to and then I later on brought in, uh, a professional court report Stenographer to record everything and it became then a new tradition. So that's uh, the curriculum review committee also has to Kind of live cast or at least post the transcript right before every Meetings people get this consent from all participants, which includes Uh, representatives from the parents and so on. I think on the review committee even the student representatives are also part of the conversation Which is for the first time, uh, in taiwan's history So that when people look at the transcripts, they know exactly what's going on previously They only know what's going on when, uh, already it's published and there's a protest and things like that But, uh, we were able through radical transparency to bring the people who would have protested on the end to the very beginning To the participate in the collaborative forming of the curriculum of the agenda and that tradition also informed the open government Principles, uh, in each school. So each school are now inviting their students also or their alums and so on and their parents To the curriculum committee within the school to design their own classes and so on because one major part of the reform Is that our senior highs are now structured like universities With the school defined, uh classes with the optional classes, uh and things like that And so they need the committee just like a university, uh, and uh, I think more participation in the transparent way So that people with very different positions can come to some general understanding and rough consensus I made this, uh, more procedural, uh, contribution, not a substantial but procedural contribution Yeah That's that's fascinating. So so if you go back to 14 years old in taiwan today, do you think you'd make a same choice? Yeah, so so yeah, the point is that I don't have to make the choice anymore because it's now a, uh, spectrum A person can go to experimental education and start Telling studying or things like that With the full blessing of the system up to 10 percent of taiwanese students can decide their own curriculum And they don't lose the rights. Uh, the way I lost my rights To access the school facilities and things like that when they do that they they're blessed They're pioneers so to speak and then uh, when they want to go back to the institutional system They don't have to wait for two years take an exam or something. They just go back And then they bring their alternate, uh, curriculums and the lessons they learned and they can also inform their school's Uh, participatory community on curriculum to start new classes and so on Philosophy esports, whatever, uh, within that school also So there's a kind of zig-zagging going on in all levels of basic education between the experimental schools more like research And the institutional schools more like development Wow, I would love to go to that school. Yeah, and it's now, uh, the system, right? So previously there's just a few schools practicing that, uh, we call them pilots But now all the schools in taiwan are doing this Wow, that that's wonderful. So it's like, um, you can learn you can keep on studying All your life. That's that's exactly right lifelong learning. We call it Yeah Wow, that that's great.  You said you always say digital technology frees us from, um Constraints of time and space. Yes, and which is true. It saves time and everything And and at the same time, I think it's very important to have a real space. Um Sharing experience with other people Um, you know in real, of course, and um You when you um before COVID-19 You used to go around the country, right?  I still do. Uh, I think this Saturday I'm going to Ping Ling and so on because we've never had a lockdown Right, um Yeah, we don't we didn't have a lockdown so What what I was saying is that I'm a telecommuting minister So like, um, I don't have to go to the cabinet office every day In fact, I'm not in the cabinet office now. Uh, and then I only go to the cabinet office, uh, Monday's and Thursday's so the other days I'm free to telecommute anywhere In Taiwan or in the world and uh, that has been like that well before the COVID pandemic. So, uh, the pandemic in a sense Made everyone feel how it's like to telework, but I've been teleworking since before the pandemic So, so what are the benefits of meeting people in person? Yeah, I think the main benefit is that we build a mental model of the nonverbal expressions of the other persons So that when we later go back online, we can accurately reconstruct what they're trying to say Right, uh, and and for example, we're we're doing now our conversation in together mode Which is already much better, right than a lot of small squares. Uh, but still, um Yeah Right, right, right, it's it's I mean, I can't just look at you like this So, so it's um, yeah, it's it's it's more, uh, natural this way It's in a setting that doesn't alienate ourselves because we then share the ambience the surroundings And it's important because otherwise we lose the sense of nonverbal gestures and nonverbal Conversations and the nonverbal part of our communication, but still, uh, it's a approximation only, right? We only see, uh, you know, a selected part Of each other, but but still it's it's something but what I'm trying to say is that the more immersive The experience is the easier would it be to build the nonverbal communication model in our own minds And then it will feel more relational less transactional And then it's much likely that when we then have another communication another communication We will be actually getting the nonverbal signals better from each other But uh, that is to say it will converge to mutual understanding But if you only had limited bandwidth, uh, not a very good microphone and just small squares and so on They actually may diverge, uh, so that my intention was no doubt But you may psychologically project something into that and then there's more misunderstanding and so on And and maybe it does not converge at all, uh after a few rounds of conversation The miscommunication risk is much higher and even if we arrive at a convergent communication takes much longer So I think face-to-face is just a more high bandwidth way to build the nonverbal part as a ground of more Conversations in the future The foundation and then digital Yes, yes, that's exactly right Even with the mask it's very difficult to Read the people I know I know Definitely, which is why some have taken to wear a mask, but with transparent, uh, uh, plastic In in the mouth Which looks a bit funny, but at least you can make out a smile Yeah Yeah, that was a good invention. Okay. Um So make my um, we're running out of time So my last question is like what makes you so optimistic? Not only about digital technology, but also about the future of humanity That that's my Yeah, um I think fundamentally that is because um when I quit high school It's not traumatic is with a full blessing of the head of the school of our principal So I thought oh career public servants are actually the most innovative. She even helped convincing my parents So I feel blessed, uh and not excluded by the institution Which is why I believe uh reforms are worth it because uh, I do believe there are serious, um interest in reforms within The bureaucracy if you work with the bureaucrats as a person As a citizen as a fellow citizen, uh, not just as a role And so on. So that's the first thing and then when I dropped out, uh, I had a lot of Reading right with the Gutenberg project Uh, were people digitalizing the books that were free of copyright into the commas and that became kind of my um, the ground right of my intellectual reading But the thing is that in 1996, uh, I think the Gutenberg project are only Allowed to carry the books that were written Before the first world war because everything after the first world war was still within copyright At that time and it specifically I think everything Around the second world war is is still, uh, universally within copyright. So I simply didn't read those so, um, my my so that the ground of my reading, uh, was, uh, rooted in a age Where the world have not experienced a world war And everyone was more optimistic back then So I think that also informed my my my, um, Ubringing my build on so to speak. Uh, and then finally the third, uh, my first, uh, exercise in voting Like paper ballot voting when I just turned 20 I went back to, uh, my district, uh, and elected the the Lijiang the the local, um, leader the local chief, uh, and The borough, I think that's the translation And I voted I specifically came back from the heart of Taipei city back to where I, uh, was raised in and then voted And then the person I voted won by one vote So It's true. It's really true And and so I felt wow democracy really mattered and all the efforts I made In voting actually mattered. Uh, so so so yeah, I think it's these personal experiences That made me very optimistic that individual's choices mattered that open access mattered That the innovation within bureaucracy is possible Oh, it's all foundation air and Yeah, that's that's very encouraging and I I love your spirit very and and I love your spirit and then um, you make me think that uh democracy is Some um, it's like an application. You can always update. Yes. Exactly. Yeah, exactly High maintenance, but it's working. Yes. Uh, and everyone can Design their own ways of participating in democracy and share it. So, uh, it's not just a few elites Like the lawmakers everyone gets to be a lawmaker when you participate in democracy Really exciting Thank you Yeah, and I love to come to Japan. Oh, yeah. Yeah, I will I will definitely this year. Yes Yeah For the senior in person. Yeah, definitely. So we can build more numberable communication. I'm sure So so you'll be uh writing about this, right? But not the video. You will not post the video I thought to you are posting a video on uh, no, it's a choice. We always offer a choice So if you if you post a video we always do but if you don't We post just a transcript and we get to edit it together Oh, okay. Um, if if possible, I would love to post it on um My own you mean a video or a transcript or both Both a both. Okay. Excellent. So I will send you the video and we'll also post it to youtube Uh and uh under creative commons, uh with your blessing, uh, but I only have my local recording of my own face So I I think the skype will probably have uh a a video of us together And I mean it depends which one you want to post But I'm okay if you post either this one or that one. Both are okay No, I think when we finish this conversation skype will probably still Produce the the two Box squares version. Uh, I I don't know. Uh, I've not uh look at the skype functionality So we'll figure out but what I'm saying is that I also have a video with just my own image And and that's what I plan to post because I didn't ask for your permission first But if you want to use the skype recorded video with both of our image, feel free. Please feel free to do so Oh, yes. Thank you. Yeah, I'd love to excellent