All right. Thank you all for coming here this afternoon. My name is Richard. I work at Pivotal. I'm Arthur. I'm work for Microsoft. Today, we are going to talk about serverless even now. Yeah. We're going to have some fun mostly demo. We're going to show you a lot of code that may or may not work. So it's going to be really exciting. Then we are going to show kind of a venture of an architecture. We're going to take a look at a lot of different Azure functions, give you a sense of how things work together. And the point of this is also to show you how Java works well on Azure as well as Cloud Foundry. Give you a sense how this works. This is going to be so hot you're going to need to know the fire exit, apparently, in all of these presentations. So buckle up. So event-driven architecture. I know we talk about this stuff, but we probably see this in a lot of different places. Arthur, do you drink coffee? Oh, yeah. Every day. Nice. So that's pretty much asynchronous, right? I mean, you don't stand there and wait for the barista to give you the coffee. Typically, you move away, and then they say your name probably incorrectly, and then they'll hand you the coffee later. So it's kind of event-driven based on them calling your name. Processing alone, you know, I think we own houses in the Seattle area, and you've got to go through the loan process. And that's step-by-step, right? It's a series of events. It's not one synchronous process through. We see that all the time. Customer complaints, you call up and yell at somebody, maybe Microsoft, about a weird support issue. Weird support issue. It triggers something, right? They're not constantly polling their customers, although I think they do, kind of how are things going. It's event-driven. It's based on getting some feedback. And then finally, hey, all of you, of course not now, because this is an awesome presentation, but you often check email. And that's often event-driven, right? You respond to the event. You do something with it. So we're surrounded by events in an architecture, but building a modern one usually takes a different kind of approach. So we've actually built an architecture for you. We're going to build some of this together. And it kind of uses this fictitious example of a store of coffee variety, as we're both from Seattle, that wants to do more event-driven ordering from different branch locations. We're going to be generating low, generating inventory. We're processing that database. I want us to talk about some of the technology here. And then using Pivotal Cloud Foundry in the Boston location, using Azure App Service in additional regions, because we're actually going to, in this session, add Singapore to the mix. And this is real life. We're actually adding this in these real locations, right? Yes. Nothing up your sleeves. You're wearing short sleeves.  This will be legit. And we're going to kind of see how you scale an event-driven architecture out in Azure. But did you want to explain some of the key tech in here, like Azure Functions and Cosmos? Sure, yeah. So when we talk about event-driven here, we are talking about serverless. So serverless, a piece of code that's triggered by any events, right? So whether it's a coffee store, or a loan processing, or customer complaints, there are plenty of events in the world, right? So the serverless, then it turns into event-driven Java. Now, imagine, imagine there is a real-time inventory hub, right? So serverless and event-driven. In this case, very often, the retailers tell us, right? They want to provision a store or provision a region where they have lots and lots of terminals, whether it's a warehouse terminal or a store terminal. They want to provision in less than five minutes or less than 10 minutes, right? How fast that they want to expand, right? So what you're looking at here is a mix of things. So let's take a focus on what's happening in Boston. The same thing is being scaled to London. And today, what we'll show you is what's happening in Boston and London. And then we're going to start deploying into Singapore and you'll see how responsive and how event-driven it is, right? So let's look at the Boston, right? So there are four key things here when you look at this picture. The first one is the data ingestion, right? It's using an event hub. It's a fully managed cloud-scale ingestion of data that's coming in. The ingestion is all about whether all the transactions are pumped in, all the notifications are pumped in right there. The second piece you see is the serverless to process real-time data. It processes the data. It stores them and also notifies, right? You can see the picture with a small strike on it, right? That's the functions, the serverless sitting there. And then the third piece is the data store, right? So the inventory data as well as the transactions, they're all stored in fully managed, no SQL, Azure, Cosmos, DB, data store. Now you can place these very close to your users, right? Particularly for all the read operations, it can be served right from the local region, that's what you see. And then you see the dashboard. Dashboard is nothing but a springboard app that talks to a Cosmos DB and listens to events that are coming in. Now as Richard said, in one region, we deploy to Pivotal Cloud Foundry. In other regions, we are deploying to Azure App Service, right? So just before this meeting, like a session about five minutes, 10 minutes ago, we provisioned some of the resources, which took us about, for Singapore, which took us about less than eight or nine minutes about, it took to provision. So now what we're gonna do here is we're gonna live, start deploying some of these terminals, like shop to store terminals into Singapore. Now before we, maybe we should show the existing, existing events how they're coming in, right? Yeah, you can call. So we can show what's existing and then once we finish the demo, kind of wrap with some of the key architectural principles of EDA, event-driven architecture, what spring does, what Azure does, and also kind of undersold Cosmos, which does some pretty remarkable stuff. We showed replication there, but being able to say, here's a master and let's go ahead and copy different nodes to other regions is literally an API caller checking something on the map. And you get multi-readmasters, you get read replicas. It's really neat tech for actually global replication. Sure. So you can see the dashboard where you can see the Boston stores. You can see the inventory of products and how many are there and the events are coming in. We built two pages just to show one is actually, the one on the left-hand side is WebSocket push and one on the right-hand side is HTML page refresh that's pulling in data, right? So here you can see how Boston and London are happening. Now before we deploy, let's start the deployment and then I'll show the code, right? So because deployment takes a couple of minutes as well. Let's do it. So let's start with Singapore. So here we are, so where am I? I'm right here, so let me go here. And what are you deploying to Singapore here? Yeah, I'm going to deploy the point of inventory first. So functions. Functions, yeah. Deploying functions, using Java code? Using Java code, right? This is a Java track I'm just trying to make and have you back there. Yeah, there you go.  This is Java's house. All right, we have a bunch of environment variables that we need to set, so setting that. Great, now as your function behaves just like what you would expect from a function platform, right? This is triggered based on data changes, storage changes, HTTP calls, actually comes with the HTTP part built in so you don't have to add a gateway or anything to that. These are functions that spin up on demand when you're not using them. You don't get charged anything. They don't do anything. It scales back down to zero. So pretty nice platform multi-language, including Java, which is pretty unique. Right, so I'm going to start a deployment. I'm going to use a Maven plugin to package and then start deploying to Singapore, right? It's all the way to Singapore, right? So we're going to start here. It'll start while it starts and starts deploying here. Let's start looking at the code as well, right? So here is, so here are the functions. Zoom in one level. One more level? We can do that. Visual Studio Code. Yeah, it's Visual Studio Code. You know, developers tell us that they love this idea editor as well because it's super fast and it's lightweight and it's very responsive as well. A multi-platform. Multi-platform as well, yeah.  You saw all of these in the diagram. So here is the update inventory, right? Where it receives a trigger from Event Hub and also receives a documented Cosmos DB input and then it processes and then puts it back into the output here. So there's a bunch of code here that satisfies this contract described right here, right? So we can also take a look at the point of transaction. So the point of transaction code is also a time trigger that pumps in code into the Cosmos DB Event Hub in this case, okay? So let's take a look at the, it's deploying. It's very close to deploying at this point. All right, and these functions are simulating usage, right? The timing triggers. Yeah, these time triggers are simulating your point of sale or your point of intake in a warehouse. So when a customer is actually screening, scanning, when a salesman is scanning all the purchases, those are the things that are happening here. Which is gonna be helpful when you're trying to simulate your own sort of load testing or testing from different locations, deploy functions in whatever your 50 regions around the world, you could actually do that as well. All right, so the first deployment happened. This is the intake. The next one we're gonna deploy a sales terminal, right? So let me go here. Let me set up some more. You're replicating the functions of course in each region, right? Each one kind of stamps out the same architecture over and over again, which is nice for scaling an adventure of an architecture. Each environment's not a snowflake. Let me just check. I deploy POS or PR. Show of hands of who's doing serverless stuff now. Some functions, yeah, the few, the brave, okay. One more time, all right? There we go. We start the deployment one more time. Nice, this is point of sale. This is the point of sale. So it'll start pumping in events as soon as that arrives. So we already deployed the point of inventory, right? So let's take a look at if there are changes in the dashboard at this point. We're waiting. Nice, we expect to see a new column show up here. Yes. You can see the Boston and London events coming in. So we're waiting for Singapore to kick in. And we're waiting to see that that we wanna show the Azure portal as well, the magic you're creating. Sure, yeah. So let's go. So here's the pivotal where we have deployed the dashboard. Let me also go into the portal here. Portal Azure. You're doing plenty of it programmatically, but obviously people like me who like to click buttons can come to the portal. And so we could see your event hub here. We could see Cosmos. We could see functions. Manage it all here as well, right? I mean, deployment you're doing from the command line, but all the management scaling is gonna happen from here, read replicas. You must have a big Azure bill every month. Yeah, all of these are here. So let's take a look at what's happening in the Boston area, right? So here's the Boston area. If I were to just get the functions alone. And you're not creating a new Cosmos, you're just using the replica. Yes, it's only the replica at this point. So these are the logic for the inventory processing as well as some of the point of sale and for the inventory devices running right here in Boston. Now, as Richard said, Cosmos DB, there's one instance that's available globally. You can take it anywhere you wanna go. Today, Azure supports it in 50 regions and the number of regions are growing as we speak, yeah. So, oh, I see the Singapore events are coming in, right there, Singapore is clear, right here. There you go, it started, Singapore started. Singapore is live, all right. Singapore is live now. You can see Singapore, it's arriving, yeah. So you saw a third column show up. It's responding to all the events that are now arriving directly from Singapore. So you can keep on adding regions like this. You can start provisioning more stores, you can expand to more regions. It's just limitless at that point. Good, so we go talk about the venture of an architecture of it? Sure, yeah. So what you saw there was hopefully life changing, something that you're all gonna go back and tell your families about, but what were some of those key components that we saw in an venture of an architecture? First, I think we saw decoupling, right? You could deploy these things as monoliths in each kind of piece that talks to the database. It wouldn't have to be four different functions, but in this case, we could scale those functions independently. We could do all sorts of interesting things when you have single purpose components. Is there things you see from that? I mean, that's kind of those key criteria. Anything special there you'd want to point out besides the decoupling? It's the single purpose, like each of those function focuses on one thing and you can scale it, right? It has its own life cycle. It has its own contact. As long as you satisfy that contact, you can keep on scaling up, scaling down depending on your needs, yeah. Right. You know, the other thing we saw is trigger-friendly systems. It's hard to do an venture of an architecture if things don't emit events. Maybe that seems blindingly obvious, but sometimes it's tricky with legacy systems. You either have to figure out how do you maybe simulate that with polling, things like that, but it's helpful when something like Azure Functions actually has built-in triggers for things like storage, data services, HTTP messaging, event hubs. It's nice. I mean, any system you want to turn into event-driven, how are you helping it emit events in some case? Sure, yeah, even customers always, developers always ask us about what about user-generated events, right? So you can always generate and start pumping into an event hub. At that point, it's scalable. Then the serverless can start responding to those events that are being ingested into it. Right. You know, next up to that scalable infrastructure, the whole point is if I'm trying to do event-driven architectures, in many cases, it's unpredictable usage. So do I have something that if it takes an hour to scale it, it's kind of difficult to be super event-driven. So how am I thinking about infrastructure that scales both in and out fairly quickly there? At the same time, making sure that you have some of the stateless and streaming event handlers. How am I processing event streams? That's what's exciting in the Azure Event Hubs or Kafka or these other tools. How am I taking data, processing it in real time, not waiting for analytics later, right? We're not going to the store at the end of every day looking at sales. We're looking at sales real time. We're processing event streams and making decisions and stocking inventory, not after a crisis happened. We actually know in real time. So finding a platform that gives you some sort of streaming support is going to be important. Yeah, an inflexible storage. Not all of this belongs in the relational database. I mean, Cosmos is, I guess we don't say no SQL anymore, right? It's a schema-less. It's schema-less, yeah. It's fine. So the idea that I do have a flexible event structure that I can stick in there, if we change the event structure, if Singapore stores different data, theoretically, than US, you could tolerate that, right? That the database doesn't break. But some people also do event sourcing with relational databases. So there's a mix. You want blob storage, potentially for logs and like. You want some sort of repository for storing raw events in many cases, and then further analytics. So looking for storage options is going to be important. And then some sort of extensibility, because we're showing something here where we're adding a lot of components. How easy is it to extend these architectures? An event-driven architecture that's rigid kind of defeats the purpose there. So tell me a little bit, after you talk about observability, we'll talk about Azure. But the hardest part with some of these architectures is can you retrace what just happened? As I have a series of triggers, of functions, I have a series of events and streaming processors, if someone said what happened yesterday, how are you piecing together a bunch of functions that lived for two seconds, a bunch of things that scaled in and out, and an event stream? That is not trivial. That's not a super solved problem at the moment. So how are you gonna actually do traceability to survive an audit, or to do some of these other things? That is important. So what's Azure do for me? So Azure, so you saw the event stream, you saw the storage, and you saw the serverless. What Azure offers here is a fully managed, a fully managed event hub, where you can start streaming data. That's number one. And it's also a fully managed Cosmos DB. You do not have to worry about replication. You do not have to worry about any management, anything there, everything is taken care of for you for the Cosmos DB. And the third one you saw there is the functions, right? So Azure offers a fully managed serverless computer on time. You deploy it, it'll be triggered, and it can be done concurrently, and it can scale to meet the needs of how we are triggering it, right? Now, in addition to being all these managed, right, you saw that complex contract that we had for the update inventory. How do you test that, right? So in addition to offering a fully managed serverless compute runtime, we ship the same runtime as a DevTool for you. So you can locally set it up, you can locally run it, you can attach your debugger, whether it's IntelliJ Eclipse or VS Code, tooling of choice, and then you can start stepping through the code, right? So you know that it works before you actually deploy it to Azure. I think Cosmos has a local clone as well, doesn't it, for a local Dev environment? It has an emulator that you can use that as well, right? Just tough with cloud development, sometimes your local Dev experience feels weird, it's hard to replicate what's in the cloud. So it's nice the function runtime that you can run locally, that's pretty good. You can completely run locally, the same contract that you saw, that contract can be registered locally so the events will start pumping into your Devbox, and then you can step through your code to see exactly what is happening. So it's no, you don't have to wait until you deploy on Azure, and then see what's happening there. You can see it on your machine, it runs, and then you can go to the cloud. The global instance scale, so Azure offers global and instance scale. Today Azure is supported in 50 regions, and the regions are growing. We just deployed to Singapore, if you were to go to, let's say another country, pick Australia, right? It's just a matter of time, right? 15 minutes you'll be up, right? Or you take Hong Kong, you want to open stores in Hong Kong. 15 minutes, it's all provision, everything is up and running from the cloud point of view. You still have to set up a store in Hong Kong, but that'll take longer than the cloud provisioning here. And Microsoft did just add availability zones last week, I think it's generally available, so there's multiple physical facilities in a region. Yes. It's robust, right? Robust functions. So you saw how we deployed, right? So we can keep on deploying.  The high throughput and the reliable here. So you saw Cosmos DB, right? Cosmos DB, it supports elastically scalable throughput. You just have to say what is your ceiling limit that you want. So it starts scaling up to that point. Now, you also saw the event hub. Events hubs are suitable for hyperscale ingestion of data. So whether it's telemetry, whether it's transaction, or events that are happening around the world, all of those can be pumped into event hubs. So the limitless data storage, right? So Cosmos DB, it supports elastically scalable storage. It's up to you how much you want. You can keep on increasing. Sky's the limit there. Practically, I would say it's limitless. First is relational database. I think Azure SQL caps out. What, it's a few gigs still out there. Maybe it's a couple terabytes at the most. It is. They've increased. I don't know the current number, but certainly it's different from Cosmos. Cosmos is huge. It's up to you. You limit your costs, right? And you don't charge me as it gets bigger. Yes. No, of course you do. Not giving away storage. That's crazy. So security is across the board, right? Specifically for Cosmos DB, all the data is encrypted at rest also in motion, right? So it's completely all of them. And some of the developers ask us that they want everything inside a virtual network that's not accessible from the internet. So that is also supported for all the data options now, virtual network, so that it's even more secure than exposing it to the internet here. Good. So some of the ways Cloud Foundry kind of supports this sort of architecture together is all the Spring libraries. We showed a little bit of Spring here and some of the boot apps, but Spring Reactive now, Spring Cloud Stream. We're gonna have some cool things along the way for Spring Cloud Stream and Event Hubs on the way. So if you're building these sort of event-driven apps, you're also looking for the libraries and frameworks to make it a little simpler. So Spring and Cloud Foundry and Java make this a bit simpler. At the same time, of course, if you're running Cloud Foundry on Azure and we won Microsoft's Consumption Partner of the Year last year, so we know that a lot of Cloud Foundry runs on Azure. That means that's great, right? That you want a platform on top sometimes of platforms to help with your dev life cycle, owning infrastructure, and the like. So if I wanna deploy Cloud Foundry, a lot of good scale, which is what I demand from an event-driven architecture. I have to scale in and out. The key also is the different types of apps. In an event-driven architecture, you're gonna do some batch processing. You might do a nightly sync between all the events that came in. Maybe they got stored and you're actually gonna make sure you didn't lose everything so you synchronize nightly via batch. You're also gonna do streaming apps, web apps, function apps coming up shortly with Spring Cloud Function and Pivotal Function Service. So a lot of good things coming in the container space and in the Cloud Foundry space for events. And then finally, putting this anywhere, right? Azure's great stuff in 50 locations. I think there's many, many more as you have your on-premises locations as well. So as I think about trying to run an event-driven architecture the same anywhere, I'm probably doing a mix of things on-prem, off-prem, different providers, co-location, whatever that makes sense. It's nice if you can stamp out the same event-driven architecture, regardless of your infrastructure pool, as much as Azure's a great place to run. So I'll do a quick plug. You'll see us hopefully on stage next at Spring One in Washington, DC, as we continue to talk about Spring. But what else can we, questions we can answer about the venture of an architecture in Azure? How can we, are there tools that you've looked at or you're interested in or wanna see how these work together? If this is a, we're gonna take this buddy comedy on the road, what do you wanna know about? Yeah, so question is how do you guarantee the order of events in the venture of an architecture? Sometimes you don't. And it depends on if you have the mysterious only once delivery, which is somewhat mythical, this idea of can you really guarantee things? Don't get backed up and read deliverance. Is your whole architecture actually participate in that sort of flow and transaction? So sometimes you go for item potent systems where I can technically do things out of order and I don't have a negative side effect on the systems.  You're not dealing with message cues and things where you can technically lose it. But it still seems like the semantics are perfect for guaranteeing order, but the right log sort of model versus a message broker seems like you get higher guarantees. I don't know your thoughts. I think you covered most of it, yeah. I think so, yeah. All right, good, other questions? Good, well, if not, we'll be here for the shy people if you have other questions, we'll stay up here. Azure is good stuff for venture of an architecture. Cloud Foundry helps you a ton with the venture of an architecture. Well, I'm really excited what Spring does with reactive and streaming that actually makes these apps easier because this is a tricky architecture. I mean, as much as we really like building this and frankly, Oster did all the work, so I use we generously, is this is gonna be a complicated architecture. If you look at it, it's just easier to build one app that does intake processing and one data store and that's kind of it. That's not awful, but as I try to scale, as I try to scale individual components, as I wanna update these things in pieces, you do wanna decompose this into a set of services. So the complexity sometimes is higher, but the payoff is greater. And those are real trade-offs. Sometimes this is overkill, sometimes this is what you need. I'm glad the frameworks and tools make this easier, but please don't over-engineer if you can help it. Thank you for the talk. Thank you. Thank you everybody. Thank you.


Hi, my name is Sandy bear and I'm here for the Vermont Institute of Community and international involvement to talk about our midterm elections. And we have a pretty non partisan, well pretty partisan actually but at least all the parties here are shown, and I will comment on what happened in the midterm elections. Pete Garotano is with us a citizen journalist, like the rest of us, who is really an independent. We have also Steve good kind and other journalists, who is a progressive correct. I will progress since the earliest days, right. We are what days of your days of your when we all, not me, however, but everybody else elected Bernie Sanders for mayor. I was in the state's attorney's office and too much of a party person at that time to even vote. I didn't even vote in that first election. And here's Chris Aaron Felker, who is the local GOP chair. And so we have a Republican and on this as well which is rather unusual, but it's very welcome. And so we are beginning to talk about what happened here in the midterm elections on me and Robin. Okay, Robin is on zoom and I'm sorry Robin, I never forget you but I did a little bit. Okay, and for tonight I represent Democratic Socialists of America. Are they a part of the Democratic Party I think they are now.  He is a true public. Yeah, that was why. No way we don't we can't. You and I work together. Audio problem with Chris. We couldn't hear anything Chris was saying Robert and I. Okay, where's the only Sandy's actually loud Chris and Steve are not quite as loud. Where's the mic. Where's the mic where speaking to know apparently not Chris. Can you hear me now be a little better Sandy's still louder for some odd reason. As I'm a big mouse and you know that where's the money. Okay, what's the format of this meeting. We're just going to call on each other and try to analyze what happened in these midterms. Okay, and maybe. Maybe I could start and then each person, you know, I'll take a couple minutes and then each other of you could also say what you guys thought okay locally or nationally or both both really because the big issue for me was a local issue. It was prop five. So, and this is, I knew this, or at least I predicted this from the earliest times, and I had big arguments with my friends about this including this guy, right here.  They were favored to go into these elections, heavily, because of certain issues that were in favor of them, for instance inflation, for instance the crime in the streets and all those issues, which are concerned, but when it came to the end, abortion Trump, all of that and the Democrats did surprisingly well, I predicted that from the beginning, because in the voting booth, and I have a lot of experience with this. People are not ever going to vote to ban the practice and the medical procedure of abortion, they're not going to do it, they're going to leave that decision up to a woman and her doctor. That's what you're talking about right. I'm talking about nationally. You said we're going to talk about. No, we said we're going to talk about both, but I think it did, it did contribute to prop five, certainly locally, which one in every single town in Vermont, did you see that the other day. There was never a question about that. You said, I know I know it, and there was never a question in my mind about it either and about the that that abortion would give a big victory to the Democrats, and it did, and they capitalized on it. We still can't hear you at all. Should we move closer? So abortion is one of the. Can't hear you. At all. If you can hear. Can you hear me now. Yes. Sure. So abortion is one of these subjects that Democrats really can win twice on because they, they, it's the subject that they can raise good money on, which spreads messaging, and it drives voter turnout. So without a doubt in this midterm, which Democrats don't usually show up in midterms when, you know, historically speaking, the abortion issue really did drive voter turnout here in Vermont but also in some very key. So, including Delaware County, Chester County, Montgomery County, like all the suburban counties around Philadelphia, it really impacted there. Also, without a doubt, Republicans had some very poor candidates that were on the November ballot. So the many of these candidates were supported and endorsed by former President Trump and they underperformed, I think, is the best way to put it. I'm kind of grateful that they did because I'm hoping that we can continue to push that out and off the table and bring some more common sense conservatives back to table. Hey, Steve, so what do you think? Just, just walk away or statewide note, I thought that they were going to surprise and I think it was not a surprise that the abortion ballot item. I think I was surprised about is it was about either to abolish slavery and 11% of the people that voted voted against that that floors me. I don't understand what they're thinking or what they're thinking at all. That was the biggest surprise that that many people has a small amount. But that anyone who goes against that just shocks them. I can't understand what they were thinking or why so there's, there's some mysteries out there about how people voting when you vote against abolishing slavery in Vermont. It didn't matter to me and it passed over well bigger than the abortion ballot. Okay, Robin, how about you. Yeah, well, I thought the war in Ukraine, which is what my issue was basically going into this election was going to be more impactful and I think it wasn't I think people were not thinking about the enormous amounts of money that are being sent to Ukraine in the form of weapons. I discovered something about myself during the last few months that I am not just a peace activist, I am a pacifist peace activist. I am against them against war. And I took part in a demonstration against at Peter, Peter Welch's office and wanting him to sign the letter that the congressman finally did send to Biden 30 of them, he refused to sign and they sent the letter through it you probably watch that, that, that sad story. And so I, well to just confess, I felt that Becca, who I think will do a good job, but on foreign policy she's going to follow in the, in the line of Peter Welch. And so I ended up voting for the Madden. And even though at, you know, in the last few weeks he was getting lots of flak for, for saying that his son had contributed, what was it $3,000 to his campaign. I have a letter from him that explains all that because I, I wrote to him and asked him if people are have any questions, but I just want to point out that despite Liam's peculiar perspective he was listed as a Republican and I wonder whether you the Republican supported him because but he got 27% of the vote and that's even more than Brenda got. She got 20%. Good. I think he was. He did better than I would have expected given the disaster of some of his positions.  No, the sound is bad. Yeah. I don't know what's happening sometimes you're loud and sometimes I can't hear you at all. Okay. There's the sound man. Like, Yeah, speak to. Okay. So, yeah, it's performed better than that I originally expected. Yeah, it's better. Yeah. We're all. I think it's important because. While you repeat the Republican nomination, he was very, very upfront about stating that he was not a Republican. I feel like I mean, there are plenty of things that Mr. Madden on that. I agree with and I like, but. I feel that he manipulated the process of the primary process and he manipulated campaign finance. Well, I would not support it. Robin, are you having the same problem with him as I am. Yeah, I can't know what's going on with your sound, but it sounds like you're in a different room and Steve and Sandy are fine. It's not your fault, but it's really difficult. So if they're recording it, like you'll completely come in and out like just break in out and out and loud and quiet. And anyway, I'll talk maybe you figure it out. I tried to support Liam early. And even though I've never been a staunch Republican, I think he just made ridiculous mistakes. He could have done much better. Liam, he could have done much better, but rejecting the party that you're running under is just an idiotic thing to do. And I mean, I just couldn't believe he did that in the beginning. I mean, he got 27%. He might have gotten 37%.  I was happy with the fact that he was pro choice. And those two things were huge in his favor, and not saying look, I'm not my own man I'm not going to, you know, lockstep in line with all the stuff, but the fact that it rejected the Republican Party wouldn't go to the Congress didn't even try to get involved and it was just silly to me then you should have just been an independent, you know, you were you were taken what you wanted from them and not getting help and so it I don't think Becca has been beaten anyway. I mean she got millions and millions of dollars from LBG and then apparently some crypto fund that went bankrupt she got millions of dollars. She had more signs out than any other candidate like by 10 in the state. Nobody was pointing out her problems and I mean unfortunately she'll probably be there for life I mean hopefully she does a good job but that's the way it is. I don't know if anybody knows this first time since in 100 years about a single incumbent lost in the in the country in the Senate. So that just shows how everybody thinks their guys and the guy that's causing the problems. I don't know if you've ever been in or the economy or the war or and you know to finish this off I'm in the same camp with Robin I mean we don't ever ever ever try to negotiate this war didn't ever need to happen. If we said hey, I got a great idea, we'll give you $800 billion if you guys negotiate. And then you can rebuild this two weeks worth of damage that happened during the skirmish will you know will help you get your city rebuild back on track but that's what will give you the money. And then after that yeah we will give you some for weapons to protect yourself but for now let's negotiate and make a peace deal then we'll get. I mean hold out a carrot, just don't throw $800 million 400 whatever weapons and a bunch of other stuff that's just getting stolen by, you know the oligarchs and everybody and it's, and it's the same pattern, whether it's either in Iran or Iraq but you know the main goal in this is just to make the the the armament companies happy and they did that right off the bat. Because they had a bad two or three years to four years during Trump because he, I was like one of the he rejected them and then didn't supply them with big, big profits during this four years so they got their big windfall here. That's that I'll recap what I think about the, let somebody else go about the elect the other the election problems later. I did want to recomb, comment, particularly on Leah Madden. I thought it was really a mistake to reject the Republican Party to. It was just naive take on his part. I did a voting for him but I thought he was a, he really should have been more strategic more can he should have accepted the Republican endorsement he won the primary. The Republicans some of them at least would have ended up supporting him probably would have supported him if he had been less disrespectful in a way. I agree. It's crazy. I'm pretty loud. Now that's good. Whatever you did. Now I can hear you. Okay. So yeah during the primary process Mr man had no reservations about confessing that he was not a Republican and he didn't even know that he won and he stated on multiple occasions that even if you won the Republican primary it was his intention to run as an independent but he didn't live up to his word on that which is my gears like if you say you're going to do something you do it. And the fact he had a lot of he had a lot of arrogance and a lot of careless errors some really unforced errors like the not registering to run as an independent constantly kind of slamming the Republican Party I mean how are you going to get elected if you're not going to, you know, try and open up and welcome all party members voter voting for you.  It's just it's really sketchy just again I had an issue because I felt that Mr man manipulated the process from start to finish. And when he was on live on the air on the morning drive proudly boasting about how he manipulated campaign finance laws so that way he could get into primary debates. I mean that just improved it for me it solidified all that you know Liam you do have some really good ideas policy wise, but you don't have the maturity and you got too much arrogance at this time so I hope that he will be learned a lot on this on this. I hope plans on coming back and continuing to stay involved. Too many people in this. Well, he's down in fellow fall, so they don't need to go build the Republican Party up down there into whatever he wants it to be.  People stay involved. The more you go back into the rain, the more you learn the more you network with people in the community. All right, so but let's return to. I mean I will say I did vote for Liam Madden. And these are the two reasons. The Republicans are really crummy on the abortion issue. They will always fail us on rights of women. Over the rights of fetuses they always have done that. So I would never have voted for the Republicans on that issue. And but on the other hand, I had a very hard time and I did not vote for many of the Democrats either because there's an incredibly important issue for me, and that is war, and the Democrats right now are incredibly pro war.  And so both parties are really very disappointing to me and will be for in the next elections in 2024 I don't see any changes, especially tonight. I guess Donald Trump is going to announce the presidency right is that way. Hopefully everybody in the party just ignores him. That would be the best thing when he shoots his mouth out the DeSantis or anybody just don't don't even answer.  Yeah, he needs to go away. He's going to be the primary. Well, he needs to lose. Well, I'm just saying quite a bit away from that. So I think Madden, just like the election deniers, this is a person who has real ethical problems. I think he's Eric. I think with campaign finance are really pretty disgraceful and how he didn't really tell the truth about what he was doing as a running as Republican or as an independent I think his ethics are really, really sketchy, just like anyone that would deny the election. This was an election nationwide where ethics matter. People really did reject the deniers. And I think it can erase like this. I think people also rejected someone who was effectively challenged as far as just their presentation of who they were what they were doing and the idea he would have his five year old son running money on his campaign and somehow rationalize that that's okay. There's something way wrong there. He was extremely defensive of it. I promise Mr. Madden was really aggressive and too cute for my taste and I promise Mr. Madden right after the primary I said look, the best thing I can offer to you sir is that I just kind of keep my mouth shut.  Just go and run your campaign the way that you need to but I was extremely disappointed. I'm disappointed in how Republicans fared statewide and around the country I really am and that's because they are. They're schizophrenic. Well, I mean there are those who support Trump and then there are the who don't and so they're not together and and after this this election they're going to be competing with each other and knocking each other over the head about that. Right. I mean, well, Sandy should we take turns now and saying how what what it was answering Chris that we think was the problem why they they're big fail here. You know, I mean, we and the only reason I know I get I get a lot of grief from friends because I pretty much been more of a Democratic liberal type my whole life but lately the policies supported by the Democrats versus the Republicans are more interested in the ones the Republicans support. Of course that one of those isn't the abortion issue but all the other ones that the Democrats have no policy whatsoever if it wasn't for abortion they would have no policy.  And who was it Lindsey Graham made a statement for it was like it was like this guy wants you to lose I mean that he wants to be part of the unit party what is the deal here. Why would you ever come out and say something like that when you know that 80% of the country is against this. And so that whole thing should have been tucked under the rug soft spoken about look Supreme Court made a decision. I didn't. You know let's move on.  I mean that's that's what that's what politicians do they don't talk about things that they know are going to be losers.  No, I get it. I honestly think it was suicide. Why, why did Republicans do that. Why did they allow Lindsey Graham to say something like that. A national ban on abortion. I mean that wave and that's why he did it they thought they were really going to pull this ball. Oh, I think they could. Don't forget when you look at how this went. It isn't like they got wiped out they lost. They wanted many places they lost by a little bit so they could have easily misinterpreted the areas they were losing by a little bit that they were winning by a little bit. They were exactly what they did and they were bold. I don't like it, but they were bold. No, but they thought it's our there's going to be a red wave jump and boxes for nicking it every night. If you look at the results and look at the Nevada, could you tell me you would go to Nevada and you could say just for walking around that Democrat was going to win. You know that. And I think there's their thing is their ears did a tin ear, but they were hearing what they wanted. They were bold. They thought we got this. Everyone's talking about us. Everyone says we're going to have a red wave. We're going for it. It was wrong. But on the other hand, when something's that close, how do you know who's really ahead? How do you know you're not? And how do you know you're not just going to drive it home with what got you there? I don't know why because you know your voters, you know, either Republicans should know that no one is going to vote the grand abortion. Well, the bottom. So close, not nobody almost everybody, but not quite. 5050 splits and a lot of these states where we're talking the winner was winner. The candidate one one had like 50.4% of the vote. I mean, these are very split districts all around the nation. So yes, some people did vote for to ban abortion.  More people. Right. I guarantee that abortion didn't win that for anybody. You forget the polls. You forget that the polls said there was going to be a red wave. That's why they were so bold because the polls were telling them to win. They didn't win. It's a point. I understand, but what's your point then? My point is that if you think you're winning, they were wrong is what I'm saying. They were wrong, but they thought they were right. They thought they were winning. And it was a good time to be bald and just push it over the goal line. Sound is bad again. Yeah, it seems like I don't like what they stand for, but there's they're taking the thing they thought was their winning issue. And they were wrong about that's but that's why they did it. They didn't do it because I thought they were wrong. They did it because I thought they were right. They thought they had it. That's why they did it. Thank God they did it. The power of the Catholic Church and the evangelicals. I mean, they thought they had that. That's all they're listening to. That's their. The Catholics are not anti-abortion women are not the Catholic Catholic women Catholic men. They're still 60% pro choice. I don't know about the evangelicals in the privacy of a voting booth people are pro choice. I don't think we're disagreeing, but they didn't hear that they did not hear it. And they couldn't say they didn't hear it. But I also I think if you look at this election, and I think the Republicans have been doing this for a long time, despite things that even would seem in their own interest. They just take these positions, these hardcore positions, and they run with it. They are, they seem ridiculous, but they stick with it. Democrats sort of did the same thing this time. They got away from the idea that because it couldn't defend the economy. The economy wasn't their issue. So they went with, I would break it down to two things. There's, there's excuses for voting for someone and there's reasons for voting for something. And the Republicans use excuses this time. And the Democrats finally went with reason with a lot of reason is a more positive thing. Reason is you're thinking about it. What's good to do. Republicans based a lot of their campaign on the economy. And in the end, and, but, but they didn't really, I don't think they really believed it. I think they just grabbed that because that was a convenient thing to use against Biden. It could have been anything, it didn't matter. If the economy was good, they would still have not voted for any Democrat, they just wouldn't do it. So they use an excuse with Democrats for whatever. Smartness or luck, use reason. They say, look, your rights are at stake. Democrats at stake. There's reasons to not let these guys in here. Not, not the selfish, not the excuse about the economy. There's a reason. And I think that's what prevailed. And the Republicans have used that reason thing on their own many times before also though. They used to use abortion was an issue of like, for a reason, a reason not to vote for someone who supported abortion. That's how they did it. It wasn't an economic issue. It wasn't an issue of, it didn't affect most people directly, but it was something that was an issue that they could push, and they pushed on the basis of reason, not on self, not of self interest. This time they didn't do that.  Well, it wasn't. The Democrats had a reason issue of reason and it prevailed. And that seemed, if you look back, I think that's what works a lot in this country reason prevails, not 100% and I know it's tight. But given this case reason, cross the finish line and nose ahead of excuses. Okay, good. It's also the gift that's not going to go away. I mean, I've done this for two years. I mean, the Supreme Court won the election for the Democrats face it. And so, if they want to keep pounding it they can the Republicans have to change their position here they have no chance.  Well, one thing they're talking about. If they could just get rid of Trump and the idea that the election was stolen. That was a poison bill for them. That was something that they could get away from that who knows how this might have turned out. Trump was another reason that Democrats had to be a lot of vote. I don't understand. I don't know what's going on with the sound here but now we can hear Sandy. All I'm saying is that that issue is going to emerge again in 2024, especially if Trump wins the primary, because Trump has said in the past, he would criminalize women for getting an abortion. I mean, it really doesn't affect all these other problems that are going on in the world in our country at all. You know, it's like a sign. It affects every woman and family. It doesn't affect anything else that's going on. Whereas the war affects the economy this affects that it doesn't really it has no effect on the economy, zero. It has no, you know, on any of the other issues it doesn't touch. It makes a lot of poor women who have to have children that they don't want to have who are then raised in an unloving family. It's completely destructive to the greater community to not allow abortion. I don't know the statistics but I would bet that way more well to do women have abortions than poor women might be. I think he said statistics, like amazing amount of women have had amazing amount of women in all classes have to and do get abortions like one in three. Well, let's not get into this. We know that they messed up and they're going to keep messing up unless they do change their stance end of conversation on that. That's true. I want some to keep on. I want policies women that's my problem I don't care if it's a Republican or Democrat and I don't like the Democrats policies right now. I'm not a huge fan but there's some things that are just plain all wrong and I'm a global scale Sandy's mentioning abortion that overrides so many things the other issues with the way they're dealing with voting rights. Those are huge global issues that will be around for a long time whether the economy has inflation or it's in recession or whether we're at a boom time or all the small things of the world. Those are global things and there's those are things that people made reason choices all not not not excuses voting but they voted because those are things are trying to protect and I think this election show that a lot of people not all because it's close but a lot of people did and a lot of young people voted and I think the young people are generally less concerned about inflation and the reason issues really appeal to them. They look they're looking longer term they haven't been in the system long enough to know what inflation is going to cause is a problem or how bad it's going to get or whatever session would be like. And they don't even know that but they can sense that our rights and democracy was at stake here. I think if the Republicans had had their red wave, it would have been some real really worse stuff begin to happen. So you think mail in ballots to continue. Well, the mail in ballot thing I mean that's another reason that Democrats won every swing state was won because the mail in ballots kept counting the week afterwards it happened in that 2020 presidential election. I mean, you can say it's not fishy but there's something seriously wrong when like 19 out of the 20 close elections all go in one direction, because they're counting ballots a week after the things over. And that's only during the pandemic. No, no, no. But you're wrong. They're not the same. Because in an absentee ballot you have to personally requested. You don't just mail them out to everybody in the world. You can request them, but people used to go out and basically harvest those ballots Democrats go out they find people that we're going to vote. Can I bring up a local issue. Can you hear me. Yeah. Yeah, okay. Which it gets back to Steve's point and that is for the state Senate in my district it was Peter Baruch Tanya Boyansky, a woman I don't know who's a Democrat and then there was infinite. Infinite was on the ballot and yet I have not seen I've gone wherever you go to the state to, you know, the state authorities and I don't see what percentage of the vote that incident got but I just want who And he is the person I voted for. However, I did get to meet Tanya Boyansky who was the third winner and she's going to be one of our senators. And I think she's a very interesting person and her position on voting is that every voter should get a voucher.  And that is all that people can have as a run for a candidate. They can't get, you know, a million dollars from some out of state place they have to give their report that they got X number of vouchers and they're going to spend it as they need to spend it. I think that's a pretty brilliant idea. I hadn't heard about it before. There's always been no proposals about campaign limits on financing always. Yeah, so I don't know what the differences. This is the Supreme Supreme Court ever under the Roberts Roberts rules of John Roberts he has come continually eaten away at really Fair enlarging voting rights. I don't know what you're talking about. I don't know the fact. No, I mean, I I don't know the definition of male and voting since the pandemic but it never since the year 2000. Did we not have results of our elections right away. The only thing that we do in politics is we have to weigh the reality versus the perception when it comes to the public. And if we're, if we hear talks and conspiracy theories about lack of faith in the vote, and in the elections, I think that we need to be really mindful of the percent of the actions that we take that change the perception, and I don't like not knowing who won the election a week later. I don't like I mean you know here in Vermont we have everybody gets mailed a ballot, but in Burlington, you get countdowns from the from the clerk's office saying hey, if you if you want to mail your ballot, then make sure you make sure it hits the mailbox you know this Saturday before or something like that. And then they let you know, but that that's not how they do things in other states like in Pennsylvania if your ballots postmarked, November the eighth, then it gets counted five days later. That's garbage, because the post office is not my polling place. You know I don't go there to like do everything that I want to with government like that's the mailbox you have. If you, your, your vote should be received by the clerk or by your polling station on that by Election Day, this having to wait for five, six days or longer to try and figure out the total. I think it I think that it makes the public feel that there's less confidence in the election results. I think that we need to do everything that we can to make people feel very confident in the vote and so this brings me up to rank choice voting because rank choice voting causes constituents to lose faith in the vote also we hear everybody and I've been in Burlington for 10 years and I hear Democrats and progressives talking about wanting to make voting easier. I'm all for that, but rank choice voting actually makes it a little bit more difficult now doesn't it, and more complicated and if it's more complicated up there's the UVM legislative workshop that said that if you have a high school education or a GED or English is your second language you're less likely to vote rank any votes at all. So who's this system really benefit. But they're pushing for it. Okay, if you listen for two minutes, we did vote once for rank choice voting. And there was me and Kurt right, and Dave Hartnett and Lea to June also got it repealed. Did you know that. Okay, so we were the people. Yeah, you got it repealed. Because, because you know why, because the third place vote carried the day and Bob Kiss was elected. Yeah, yes, and nobody had any confidence about kiss after that. After, after last Tuesday's general election results, we've heard rumors from the new Democratic supermajority and Montpelier that they're interested in bringing, bringing right to the state of Vermont now I, I really don't approve of this in any way that voting is, is okay maybe in your ward, but when you do it statewide you're centralizing the vote in order to have to be pulling ballots in from the Northeast Kingdom from Brattleboro from Burlington, to try and be able to tabulate these and will end up becoming one of those states where we don't know who won until 567 days later. And that person in on the first round becomes the next mayor people going what. And that's what happened. That's what happened. Well, you know the devil from the details when it comes to ranked choice voting has anybody followed Alaska employees ranked choice voting also, and currently, they have an all party system. So the at large congressional seat has a Democrat in the number one position to Republicans with representatives. Democrat in the top position to Republicans in second and third and then a libertarian fourth place, but I'm just blown away that they actually have two Republicans on the general election ballot for one house congressional seat, and Sarah Collins, lover, hater, her campaign policy was ranked the red. And if you look, you know, we still don't have the results that they haven't served in Alaska's at large seat. Well, they're going to both of we're going to be subject to that. I figured out the audio problem. When they point the camera at you I can hear you when they put the camera at Sandy you can hear but when you do the broad thing you can't hear anybody. Yeah, okay. So now I can hear you. If Sandy starts talking, I hear nothing. Interesting. Whoever's doing the camera they have to be pointed at that person. Yeah. Sorry. All right. Well, I could jump in with just one more point about elections, because I was looking it up. This was the most expensive midterm election in history. The total cost state and federal midterm election exceeded 16.7 billion dollars. And the interesting thing is that 96% of us house races were won by the biggest spender. And so we saw that Democrats one where we weren't expecting they were going to win, and they out raised Republicans. You know, all the idea that Republicans are getting money dark money from who knows where and they they win the elections. Well, the Democrats are getting money from who knows where and they won more elections. Well, the fact that Fetterman beat Oz, if anybody watched that debate. It's mind boggling it really is that's that was the most horrific thing I ever saw that anybody in that state could vote for. I would have voted for Mickey Mouse, instead of Fetterman. I mean it was just amazing so I think he got a lot more money. You know, I don't know. But yeah, it's a shame money is such a big factor. You're not saying Oz would be the better Senate. What, you're not saying that Oz would be the better senator are you over Fetterman. Yeah, over anybody that he that was a choice. You think better than I'll be a better center or Oz will be better set. Let's go this way. Oz was a heart surgeon. Okay, yes. I think that's the guy that we don't even know as a brain in his head. I mean I did anybody really watch that debate I don't want to dwell on it but it was, it was horrific. You know, if somebody could watch that and say okay I'm voting for this guy. I mean yeah somebody from the KKK would have been running the other side for me to vote for for that for Fetterman let's put it that way I don't think Oz was there. I think he has a track track record that appealed to middle class and low income people. Anyway, anyway, I don't want to sideline but that was kind of to me like some of the stuff that went on the election the fact that he one showed like other races that you're like surprised about was the same thing maybe it's money. You know because you can't look at both those people and say okay well I'd rather have this person representing me in Congress or the Senate or whatever so I don't know.   No, Oz. Oh, well yeah. Frankly, I think there's a term that we should lose.  When you look at the record and what people are really saying when they say they're pro life they're pro fetal life. No, the people who use that term which I think some Democrats do too. I would say I'm pro life also the lives of women and girls.  If you ask the anti abortion people about their bands and abortion they are really pro fetal life and they should say that. Okay, well, that would twist the whole thing around. Yes, they chose that name for themselves. They were very clever.  And Chris is going to tell us if they're going to change, change dreams in the next two years, if they're going to still keep down on this. What do you say, what do you say about it? I think that if you decide to go for the nomination that it's going to cause some division in the party and I think that he's ultimately going to lose the nomination. Yes. Who's he talking about the Santas. I do too, but if he'll do it, I don't know if would he dare do it run this time in a primary. Yeah, I mean, there are some good Republicans out there who could really give Joe Biden a run for his money in 2024. And I think that. I think that Ron DeSantis is one of them. Look at how well he did in Florida and the gains that he made in the Latino community and even in Palm Beach County. It's just incredible. And then, you know, there are parallels, you know, we could look up here in Vermont, but Phil Scott, Phil Scott's not going anywhere. He doesn't definitely doesn't want the bigger job, but he even he won every single town in Vermont, Brendan and something there. So there's something to, you know, some of these camp. Yeah, reasonable.  Yeah. Republicans have just to get reasonable. Yes. Okay. May I ask, may I ask Democrats amongst the group here. Do you support Biden running a second term or who could who could the Democrats put up. I mean, I, I would like them to put someone else up. I can't hear you. I have been a Democrat largely for years, although I vote often for third parties. I often vote for independence, but I was in the legislature as a Democrat. I was a Kennedy supporter from then on. Usually I support Democrats. So I'll speak as a Democrat. They put up Biden, their suicidal. Okay. I don't think he's going to run again. I think he would be Trump again. Okay, but depends on who they depends on who they put up. I wouldn't if it was Harris, I think that would be a disaster. That would be suicide. I don't know who wants it. Who looks good. So you got to know who was there. They won't let that happen. No. Oh, they'll never let that happen. Hey, they wouldn't let it when he was young. But now he's even too old for him to want to do it. He's not going to run again. Okay, so then answer Robin's question. They're going to have to decide soon because Biden's going to doesn't have to announce with the next couple of weeks. Because it's only two years. He's got to give whoever's, whoever's going to campaign. What is he going to wait until six months before the election? He's going to have to say something in the near future. And what are you saying? He's hoping for Biden. I think that it's premature for Mr. Trump to try and enter a race that hasn't really begun yet. I'm unhappy that he is planning any kind of announcement today, especially since we still haven't. We still haven't decided who's going to be the next senator from Georgia. Oh, true. Yeah, true. The man needs to go and enjoy his chocolate cake in his dinner and in his retirement for right now. You know, there's, there are plenty of policies that Mr. Trump had that, you know, any political scientists could argue was decent. His ego and his lack of self control when it came to communications. It's too dangerous and it's too reckless for me. Yes. One issue that always gives to the Democrats. And that is that a lot of people hate Trump. You're right. That's going to win for the Democrats. Well, that's one of the reasons why I don't want him to be. You know, there are die hard Trump supporters, you know, maybe about 30 million of them, but that's not enough to win an election. And, and nobody wants to build a coalition with them. Yep. The only way Trump can win is if Biden runs against him. That's the only possible way. But he didn't last time. That's not different this time, only because well, hopefully it won't happen, but I think Biden is going to look worse and worse and worse and worse. As time goes on, because that's just what happened was happening to him, unfortunately. I mean, I don't think he'll even be able to have a debate. And I think that I think that we kind of touched on a little bit of an issue here. Like, so we were expecting historically speaking, we were expecting the Republicans to really secure the Congress and they didn't. And that's that might actually be a blessing in disguise because the economy is kind of heading a negative direction. And if Republicans had control of either the House or the whole of Congress, they could receive a fair amount of blame for this. So, you know, having it so split, recognizing that looking at the numbers from Election Day and seeing that even in any of those 20 or 30 contests that were super close that took days. We're really divided in each one of those municipalities really 5050. That's, that's a level of division that has been sustained the last two, four years. We don't seem to go through a healing stage anymore. We stay very tense and divided. That's going to, I believe, benefit the Republicans going into 2024. You're right that the Supreme Court and the overturning of row really contributed to these election results this year. But what have we done? How, how is abortion going to bring out voters in two years? Legislature, it's going to be. It's already in the Vermont Constitution.  I mean, you've already got it already got it. Maybe the same prediction of the Democrats will capitalize on that. It's the gift that will always be gifted to the Democrats.  They'll put a constitutional amendment on every state ballot like it's happened this time. It only matters in the five or six states through the swing states. It's not going to matter in Mississippi and Alabama. It's not going to matter in Vermont. It only matters in the states where like Pennsylvania and the places that are swing states. So those are the states where they have to wise up. You are forgetting strategy. It's, it's what always will elect Democrats and they will and they will milk it. And I think it's the right strategy and I think it's the right policy also is to make abortion a medical decision between a woman and her doctor. And when that is threatened in any way, the Democrats are going to capitalize on it and the Republicans will lose a predicted and I will keep predicting it until I'm too old to talk. Yeah, but my point, Sandy, Dr. Oz, Dr. Oz had been pro choice. He would have been Federman. Maybe. Absolutely. Yeah. It wouldn't even have been close. But he wasn't. He could have been, but he wasn't. Right. But it only matters in the five or six states where those particular people have to get their act together. Right. Maybe, maybe, maybe not. If you look at where abortion was on the ballot. It was on a ballot in Kentucky, Montana, Vermont, California, and there was an in Michigan. And each time these are, that's a wide variety of states. You compare, say, Montana to California or Vermont to even the Michigan and the abortion issue always fell on the side of more favorable to abortion. In other words, California passed the amendment like Vermont did. Michigan did something like that. Kentucky had something on the ballot about. It was strangely worded, but it was designed to say that you couldn't in any way pass a law that allowed abortion to happen. And that went down in a conservative state. Montana had something about the rights of babies, fetuses that were born alive or something. It went down. That's a conservative state. So I think there are publicans are looking at something more than just, it's not just Pennsylvania. It's not just little Vermont or California. So 80% of people are in Michigan. Right. It's everywhere. It's everywhere. But it wasn't that way a year ago. Until Roe did this, Republicans were doing the same thing. Abortion was a gift that kept on giving. They could push forward all the time, but they never really wanted to get over the finish line because it wasn't an issue once they did. And that's what happened. Now they got over the finish line. It's not a good issue for them anymore. Now it's a great issue for the Democrats. But do the Democrats, do they want to win it? Or do they just want to milk at the same way? Who knows? They can just want it to always be. I agree with you. Now the tables have turned. Now the Democrats can do the exact same thing to them, probably with great success. And I think you're seeing all kinds of states are rejecting restrictions on abortion. Now maybe Mississippi never will. Maybe Arkansas never will. But 80% of the country agrees with that. So you got to just go there. I'm just saying in the five states, they're not going to do that. I understand that, but you don't need the whole country to be on your side. You just need the five states. That's my point. But they can't do that though. They could not do that. MAGA would not let them do that. That's what I did. That's why I did do it.  Right. Well, I understand that, but it. There's one issue that both of us care about. That could have been explored more. And that's the whole issue of transgenderism. And hormone treatment on children. And the Republicans didn't touch it. Right. And the Democrats didn't touch it. And the Republicans didn't touch it. And the Republicans didn't touch it. And the Republicans didn't touch on parental rights in the curriculum in the schools. And that is another reason he did so well. It is a real reason I did so well. But the other Republicans stayed away from it. And the Democrats kind of did it too. Well, you're right. Republicans and Democrats stayed away from it. And truly let's be honest because they're. Prop five. The reproductive liberty amendment that we just passed. And during their, the proponents. Tor trying to sell this on Vermont public, they were even talking about how this includes the right to sterilization. And, you know, there's no age restrictions according to prop five article 22 now. And so there was a lot of talk and scuttle, but that this was. In addition to securing and abortion rights and codifying them in the Vermont constitution, that it also extends the ability for an individual to demand. Child. Yeah, that's the problem. That's why I didn't vote for it. And so this is vague. It's vague. And so really, you know, when the Supreme Court overturned Roe v. Wade, I thought, okay, you know, it's been 50 years. Maybe this is a good time for us to all start having this conversations. But we went right into this. We didn't. Not how naive of me. We went right into this prop five amendment. And we're not getting, we're not having honest conversations. There are Democrats in the state who I know oppose the medical transitioning of children. And they should have raised their voice and spoke up about this. Nobody did. But you weren't running for. Not yet. Maybe I'll turn out that the amendment didn't mean that. What? Maybe it'll turn out that the amendment didn't. Authorize. I know. If no one knew it did. How could you argue that it did? Well, all right. Because some of them will challenge it in court maybe. Anyway, so we are out of time. This has been delightful meeting with my partisan friends and talking about these issues. And we'll see you soon. So again, thank you for joining.