What's up everybody? Jason here for jazzy's case-break.com. We just sold out another case of Dynasty 2022 baseball edition. This is a five box case-break to a round of teams each number or sorry one round of teams each number two And again guys 29 total spots everybody gets around a team in the MLB Rockies and A's are comboed number guys There's only five hits five boxes one card per box Super high risk, but super high reward. Of course Every card is numbered at 10 or less as well Now here's the dice really his customer names those are the customer names that bought in straight up and then everybody else here Won that from capsules 43 There's the teams there too. So let's roll It is a four to four eight the hard way here we go eight times one two three four five six seven eight Eight Eight times four and a four eight Dale done a Matt Johnson four four eight one two three four five six seven eight Eight times eight eight Phillies down the Nationals So do you have the Phillies Zach with the Diamondbacks chase with Tampa Bay Rays Jimmy with the Cardinals Petra with the Orioles Alan with the Braves Rob with the Mets Rangers Jimmy with the Padres Travis of the Giants Rob of the Cubs Travis of the Tigers chase with the Brewers Aaron with the Yankees Thomas of the Astros Rob with the Blue Jays Carter with the Angels Nancy with the Dodgers Logan with the Pirates Robby of the Royals Logan with the A's Rockies combo Yen with the twins Eugene with the Reds Craig with the Mariners Co with the White Sox Steven with the Red Sox Aaron with the Guardians Jonathan with the Marlins and Matt Johnson with the Nationals All right, if anybody wants to make a quick trade I'll give you guys a quick 30 40 seconds. Did you not hear me Matthew? I just did to detail the explain it off. I Don't want to have to repeat myself. It was like a whole minute spiel Is your mic on? Rewind back like maybe a couple minutes and I answered your question No, nobody wants your two combo spots. You're gonna get something nice right now watch I will call home do to do this break until I have to get back for my lunch break, but I See you also sold this one out If Michael doesn't see or hear that then I don't know what's going on. I can't help it anymore All right guys, here we go. Here we go guys. No worries Matthew I just wanted you to know that I did answer your question. I want you to think I was ignoring you Yeah, man Every breaker operates a little differently look if I had to make the choice did not have fillers I wouldn't but sometimes bigger breaks like that one that you bought into sometimes sit longer because not many people can afford $250 spot but There's a lot of us out there that are willing to take the wrist the gamble the rush to win one of those spots for only 30 bucks so That's the reason why we do fillers because Sometimes it really helps a break move faster At the end of the day now We pre-takeout spots because we want to make sure that we don't oversell But when people sell at the straight-up spots will always cancel fillers because that just proves to us that you guys want to sell It off straight up we can't predict it of course until the breaks on the website, so Just always look for your bigger break if you're in one to look right next to it If there's a filler or not it'll say right in the title what it's for It'll say four spots given away in valiant You know four spots six spots given away in dynasty that notifies and lets you know that that is a filler and Your main chase is winning bigger spots in a bigger break. All right guys here.  Let's save that that has to be a one-on-one and Jonathan India seven out of ten Nice three-color patch there for the Cincinnati Reds.  There you go, man. I really want that one-on-one to be a rookie again Of course you can't have a break Without an Astro right nice packs though Bregman two out of five Very nice Braggie Astros Thomas All right last one here folks And then we'll go with the card here of course second to last I should say Jersey number Braves you were number two ladder Braves It is John smoke seven out of ten three-color patch Braves going to Allen. All right any guesses on this one-on-one guys I'm gonna call a rookie. I'm gonna call a rookie guessing. This should be trial or Tommy Randall saying it's a Ripken all right Let's find out So again, we had a Even has the I don't be authentic Nike Wow Spencer Torkelson one-of-one. Let's go RPA one-of-one Spencer Torkelson and that's Travis Melbourne who got that from a capstones filler Got the Detroit Tigers Very nice All right, well, I kept the simple and I said rookie and it was I don't want to be specific nice And there you go folks. That was the case Braggie out of five little blotty down in India And this is when we started off with the way to the end Spencer Torkelson Very nice man. Congrats Travis and thank you guys Like I said, this is a high high risk, but a high high reward if you dig it Now I don't think we have any more for the time being guys, but I'm pretty sure we'll be hopefully getting some more soon Even the next couple days. So check back on the website guys. Jasper's case breaks.com


The Navy takes this month to recognize Asian Americans and Pacific Islanders and recognizes their accomplishments and vital contributions to American history. This year's theme, I Am Beyond, symbolizes the spirit of Asian Americans and Pacific Islanders and how they have excelled beyond the challenges they've faced. They picked this theme to sort of symbolize or represent the Asian American and Pacific Islanders strong tendency to excel and despite the very limited opportunities provided for us. Asian Americans and Pacific Islanders represent about 30 countries and ethnic groups and speak more than a hundred languages. From the Defense Media Activity, I'm Petty Officer Jonathan Pancall.


Alright everybody, what is going on, welcome back, welcome back to another video and today number six of my Taiga Muay Thai Excursion, you can call it, my trip, my month long trip here in Phuket in Thailand, today's a Saturday, it's day number six, I didn't train today and that's my fault, I told myself I was going to but due to procrastination and talking myself out of it, psyching myself out of it, basically, I didn't go, so today's been up and down, you know, this was a similar feeling to that that I felt down in Melbourne in August when I went down there specifically for one goal which was to play football, American football for the first time and then on one of the first training days, I missed it because I overthought it, I thought no, I don't have the exact right equipment, I can't go down, it's like no mate, the main thing is that you show up, okay that's the main thing, as long as you show up, you can make something out of it, but that's just my overthinking and that happens sometimes and that's happened on this trip and it happened today, so I didn't end up going to training today, we did five days, Monday to Friday, I sort of locked that in yesterday and I thought well on the weekend I'll do what I want, do what I can, but basically I'm happy that I got those five days in and so today I'm feeling disappointed right now because I didn't go to training, Sunday it's closed, Sunday is a big day, we've got UFC Auckland with Dan Hooker fighting Paul Felder and we've got Deontay Wilder versus Tyson Fury, two, I'm going for Fury and I'm going for Hooker both by way of knockouts, now I did want to discuss my injury, my Achilles tendonitis that flared up on day number three, I pushed through that day, I did not want to go to training, I thought no, this is going to snap, I thought my Achilles tendon if I fucking push this it's going to snap, lo and behold you get into the training session, it does still hurt a little bit but because of what you're doing, because of what you're concentrating on in front of you, you know the pain goes away, now following those two sessions on the Wednesday I went and got some ice spray which is here, you guys saw me apply it to my Achilles tendon, I also got some anti-inflammatory medication, now I don't know if these are available in Australia but what I will say guys is I took one, oh yeah by the way I got a haircut too, so skin fade up to a number two with a clean shave, 250 baht guys that's $12.50 Australian, this woman in a barbershop was a woman, she took an hour to do my hair plus another 20 minutes to do my neck, my face and charged me 250 baht, I thought holy shit man this is the place, that would cost over 50 bucks in Australia absolutely, any day of the week, she took so much meticulous care with my hair and my beard so because of that I gave her a tip which is what you'll find yourself doing, if you feel like you get a really good service whether it be food or you know a massage or haircut or even just buying something in a shop if you get great service plus it's really really well priced you'll you know quite often give a tip it's completely up to you it's not expected but you can so I did in this case so we're cleaned up already for Monday morning and straight into it eight o'clock in the morning with a new week of Muay Thai so I'm pumped for that but what I was gonna say is that these anti-inflammatory drugs you know I was expecting them to give me a box of ibuprofen and if you're taking that stuff you know you can take six eight per day the pharmacist gave me these they said one per day with food and they were quite strict on that and I thought one per day one anti-inflammatory pill per day are you serious and luckily only took one and that's all it needed because I tell you what as of right now my problematic Achilles tendon feels brand new so I took one of those pills I use this probably about 10 times throughout the day it's nearly all gone and low and behold the next day my Achilles tendon felt great so not only did the pharmacist help me out and that's a recommendation I got before coming here doesn't matter if you're sick in the stomach you've got a headache you've got a physical injury walk into the chemist or the pharmacy on soy tide which is probably about 500 meters away from tiger walk in there tell them what your problem is they do speak English and they'll help you out you know what I mean and that's what I did I said look my Achilles tendon is killing me I want to keep training what can I do I actually asked for an ice pack they gave me the spray instead plus these so 24 hours later I'm really glad that I pushed through those two sessions because if I had of if I hadn't have trained and felt what it was like at the end of the training because it was actually really bad I probably would never have gone to the pharmacy and I may still be struggling with the effects of that so you know not only did I get two extra sessions done on a sore Achilles the next day it was completely gone I was like that's a fucking miracle anyways injuries yes that one's gone I do have another injury which is not your normal injury I will say it's one that I've had once before and I believe it's because I've got a very very bony tailbone okay it must stick out or something I'm not sure maybe I just haven't conditioned it because I haven't done much ab work but basically if I push through when I'm doing sit-ups past the point of pain and just keep going and going and going what happens is you know once I lose the strength in my core I end up just like falling backwards and then really having to use like my arms my legs to to to get that that force to bring myself back up for another another sit-up now back in back in November I challenged myself I thought okay I'm gonna do I'm gonna do 200 sit-ups per day for a month right I did it on day number one got through it it was it was one of the hardest things I've ever done okay my abs were sore for a week but that wasn't the problem I went to go and do it the second day I sat down I lean back and I could not even do it what had happened was a massive graze had developed at the top of my tailbone and that's because of the way that I was you know slamming back into the ground pulling myself up slamming into the ground pulling myself up and obviously the way that my shorts rubbed on my tailbone created this massive graze and that took about a week to heal if not two weeks now what's happened is we did 50 sit-ups and I was already so tired from it from the training beforehand this was probably at the end of the session we did 50 sit-ups with the partner I couldn't stop I had to keep going by the end of it I thought yeah that's okay you know what wasn't too bad okay I jump in the shower and I get home I've done it again I've done it again I've grazed my fucking tailbone on the opposite side that it happened last time so I don't know what what's up with my fucking tailbone I don't know what I don't know what happened anyways I can't do more than 50 sit-ups at the moment without grazing my tailbone so what happens it's a it's an open cut and you know until it closes and heals over properly it's not the nicest thing to imagine but it is the injury that I'm working with right now so if they say we're doing sit-ups which they have done since I've had the injury I still do them but I do them on one ass cheek okay literally I'm I'm having to come up on an angle you know they're probably looking at me like what the fuck are you doing but hey I'm injured anyway it's not gonna slow me down with any stand-up stuff any push-ups you know cardio fitness work things like that's not gonna stop me so that's okay what else we got to talk about I did have a bit of a list here right I found my favorite healthy eating restaurant here on soy tide you know I wouldn't be going there every night but there have been times on this trip and in plenty of times in the past when I've traveled Southeast Asia especially when I was training you know hard in the gym over 100 kg is trying to maintain my muscle mass it's very hard to find big portions of protein or quality protein without you know being in a curry or you know it might be covered in some sort of sauce or something like that look if you want just clean protein and actual good-sized I mean if you buy a chicken breast in some places it could be fucking tiny I don't know what they feed these chickens or you know in fact maybe these are normal chicken size and we get chicken breasts that are so huge back in Australia because they're all pumped up with hormones but regardless of all that there's a place on soy tide which is the street that all the Muay Thai camps are on and it's called Ali's barbecue it's right at the end of the street you'd have to go past pretty much every single other shop and restaurant and you know accommodation to find this place it's called Ali's barbecue they cook your meat on-site to order and so when it comes to getting you know extra protein in your diet you can order things like a boiled egg or a fried egg you can order things like a chicken thigh or a chicken breast for the last couple of nights I've eaten probably one or two meals throughout the day I felt like at the end of the day shit I probably haven't you know had enough protein I'm looking to get at least 100 grams a day here probably 150 if not 200 so last couple of nights I've come to the end of the night I haven't really had that much protein I've gone to Ali's barbecue I've ordered two chicken breasts there's 60 bar each that's $3 they come out grilled to perfection they're absolutely beautiful a little bit salad on the side and you've got yourself like a hundred grams of protein just like that for $6 with a bit of salad so that my friends is my way of upping my protein intake per day whilst staying here near tiger now normally I probably would have I guess a protein shake I was gonna buy a tub of protein powder which I may still do but I'd much rather eat food and if I can get chicken breasts cooked like that for that price with you know no frills that's what I wanted you know when you want protein you just want protein when you're fucking training the gym and you know how important protein is to muscle maintenance which is what I'm doing whilst I'm here you want that protein and you know you don't want to cover in sauces and in a big salad or in a big fucking pasta meal or something like that you just want the protein right there and that's what you get that Ali's barbecue so that is my recommendation and I'd have to say that that would be about it so that is day number six for anyone following along we're here for a month today has been up and down to be honest mentally because I missed that training session and you know Sunday would have to be the only day that I'm gonna be okay with with not training because Tiger Muay Thai as a as a complex is shut so that is it guys as of Monday we'll be back I feel like I'm probably gonna have my second private Muay Thai session on Monday so I'll take the camera down for that we'll discuss the winners of the two fights that are on this weekend so yeah tomorrow's gonna be a great day man day off training big coffee to start the morning and we're straight into the UFC and following that we got Wilder Fury fuck oh my god I cannot wait guys I've become a massive massive fight fan over the last four years it's slowly slowly been building and you know I couldn't be more into fighting right now boxing mixed martial arts kick boxing I'll watch it all and you know I'm a super fan I'm an absolute super fan I watch every single press conference I watch every single interview and here I am guys in Thailand smack bang in the middle of fight street or fighter street which is so I tied that's the street that all of these fight camps are on including Tiger and I'm I'm pretty sure that tie-e'd means fighter so soy means street tie-e'd means fighter fighter street that's the street that I'm training on all I can say is try it out for yourself it's pretty sweet that street has got to be one of the most awesome streets I've ever seen it is just packed with fitness food fighting and cheap accommodation so with all that being said guys have a fantastic day and I'll see you in the next one peace out


This week on the anxious truth. We're going to talk about the difference between what I did to recover and why I did those things They're not the same and it matters Hello, everybody. Welcome back to the anxious truth. This is episode number 268 of the podcast We are recording in July of 2023 in case you are listening from the future I am Drew linsellata creator and host of the anxious truth This is the podcast that covers all things anxiety anxiety disorders and anxiety recovery So if you are struggling with things like panic attacks or agoraphobia, then this is the place for you I'm happy that you are here, and I hope you find the content helpful and applicable in your own journey If of course you are a returning listener or viewer on the YouTube channel, welcome back I'm glad you're here for episode 268 Today we're going to talk about kind of why I don't really talk that much about my own personal experience I wrote a book about it. It's true. You can get that book for free. It's called an anxiety story Just go to my website. Check it out. You can download it as a PDF for free and you can get it as an mp3 audio book download for free So yes, I did write that book because I think you have a right to know who you're listening to and who you're talking to But most of the time you will notice that when you ask me questions if you are in my social media community I very very rarely respond with well what I did was Because what I did mattered to me But the specifics of what I did and what you might do specifically Can vary because you are not me and I am not you This is where we have to respect individuality. We have to respect autonomy We have to understand that everybody does have a different experience in life You came into this process with different experiences that I came into mine So I cannot base the advice that I give you only on what I did because some of you may Identify with that it may resonate for some of you, but for others it won't resonate at all and that's just not fair So I cannot hold up my specific Activities in recovery as your model what I will do and what I have done And I think I've done consistently for quite a long time now is to talk about the principles underneath that Now yes from time to time I can bring my experience into this because in a way I think it informs the way I can teach you and it gives me a little bit more empathy And I do understand what you're going through and I know what it feels like. I know why you're asking the questions I know what you're afraid of so yeah, there's a benefit there and I will share that when it is appropriate But I want you to care more about why I did what I did Than to try to care or or mimic what I did I had a very specific set of things I was looking for for me. It was being home alone It was driving it was some intrusive thoughts that I had to deal with I had my own specific set of circumstances and my anxiety disorders looked My like my anxiety disorders and my particular combination of fears and distresses and symptomology Whereas yours might might look like mine, but it's likely going to look a little bit different So I'm going to try to concentrate more on the principles underneath what I did Then exactly what I did And I think that's important because I understand that when you are struggling You are going to try to find people who came before you So that you can get some inspiration. You can get a sense of hope This person did it. What did they do? Let me do what they did But in this thing that we're talking about Sometimes it's almost impossible to answer a question effectively by just telling you what I did So let me give you a concrete example of that and this is where I think things get a little bit sticky When you're looking for help in the realm of social media and a one to many model You know, this is a one to many model is one of me and many of you and I'm talking to many people at a time People will ask me questions About how to accept or how to let go or how do I surrender? But how do you do that? Right? It's probably the most common theme In terms of all the feedback that I get from from this audience that I'm privileged to be involved with That theme is okay. I hear you but how And usually the question but how is based on That seems so hard and so scary That I cannot imagine that there is a way to do that So can you please tell me how to do such a scary thing? And I I say all the time that at some point there's no instructions for doing scary things What I cannot do in that circumstance is to just tell you what I did Because essentially I would just be saying well, I was brave. Well, I did it anyway Well, I was brave and okay fair enough in the end. It is true that so much of this does come down to that But just telling you that I did it Doesn't really help you because that winds that puts you in a situation where you can wind up confused and feeling badly about yourself So if you ask me well, how do you do that? Well, how did you drive on the highway? And I say just did Well, it's true. I just did but there was such a wide variety of variables There was such a path that got me to the point where The pain of not driving on the highway outweighed the pain of driving on the highway And I cannot just say well, I got in my car and I just did it It's true that if you look at it purely from a behavioral standpoint, it would look that way But if I answer the question, how do you do hard things by just telling you what I did I am completely discounting and minimizing the way you're getting to that moment Which is completely would be completely unfair and it can leave you feeling confused.  How come my gears can't do it, right? So when you ask How to do hard things and somebody just tells you what they did That's not an answer as to how to do hard things. It's it's not at all It's an example of somebody who did a hard thing So I could give you examples of hard things that I did But that doesn't tell you how I did it because you're not in my head. You didn't live my life I'm not living your life So it can be very very tricky and as much as I know You would hope that if I could tell you exactly what I did you can pretty much just mimic that and get better That's that's not necessarily true What I do base all of these things on is If you follow the principles that I followed which are the same principles That millions of people have followed and are following today Then you have a really high chance of success. You're giving yourself the in my theoretical orientation I have to always say that I think you're giving yourself the best chance of success in terms of full recovery if you do it following those principles Right cognitive behavioral principles toward, you know the way we approach an anxiety disorder But just telling you what I did. Here's what I did is not a good answer I just and this is now we start to get into personal opinion I just believe In in my bones that what I did was Is not a good answer that is not a nuanced answer It is completely ignoring the complexity of the problem It is completely ignoring the differences between one listener and another between one youtube viewer and another Between one member of your facebook group and another. It's not fair. It's one dimensional. It's confusing It's frustrating It can make people feel worse And if I were to just tell you what I did again and again and try to give you instructions and say just do what I did I would probably be doing doing more harm than help to you in the end More psychologically than anything else. So this is why I don't Generally answer questions with what I did And a lot of people want to ask about my experience and I'm happy to share that sometimes And I will always try and avoid just telling you what I did And if you like if you're in my instagram subscriber group You have seen this in action because it's normal for you guys to want to ask me and I don't mind that you ask me I never mind those questions by the way. I don't feel like you're prying. I this is not something I keep private clearly But I will tend to answer the questions with it doesn't matter what I did Let's talk about why I did it like what principle was I following when I did things? What what are you up against right now? Where are you stuck? Let's talk about your situation Let's not talk about what my situation is Because here's a here's a thing that it's you know took me a while to learn When I first fired up a microphone and started talking into this thing in 2014 to nobody You know, that's every podcast starts with zero audience And I just was winging it and figuring like well, I would try to help some people because I got a lot of help And I should pay it forward. Yeah, a lot of what I was saying was based Yes on an understanding of the principles I've always been sort of a nerd about this stuff and I've always kept abreast of it And I've done a lot of reading and I've educated myself before getting into formal education that I'm in right now But I would say a lot of it was based on my own personal experience And in fact in those early podcasts, I think I said that I'm not a doctor I'm not a therapist I said that in all the early versions of the podcast when it was still called that anxiety guy And I would say I'm just passing along what I learned did what I did So it was based a little bit more on my personal experience But over time when I get to talk to so many people and you guys teach me just like I try to teach you You learn That just my own experience that's not enough that is simply not enough to be helpful So I think the point I'm trying to make today is I know you're going to want to try to find out exactly what I did So you can mimic that and you might want to find other people and find out what they did so you can mimic that But you can't really mimic someone else's recovery Moment by moment step by step specific instruction by specific instruction because it generally won't apply Look for the principles that you see And apply those principles in your situation Because like I said, there's going to be nuances that is going to be different for everybody And I know it sounds like I'm being evasive if I refuse to answer questions about exactly what I did Or if you ask me what I did and I turn it back around and I kind of Ask you a question in return. I answer I answer your question with another question I know that can sound really frustrating, but I'm not trying to be evasive or private or hide things I'm not trying to be You know a difficult I'm not this is not like tough love as a brand I'm not trying to be hard It's just I'm trying to be responsible and I'm trying to point you in a direction I think would be more productive for you in the long term even though maybe in that little five minute moment You feel like you'd get some relief if I just told you what I did and I do understand sometimes It's okay to hear those things that is true, but there's so much nuance here, right? So look at me. I just spent 10 minutes telling you why I shouldn't tell you what I did But I also have to recognize that sometimes I can tell you what I did because it depends on the context It depends on who I'm talking to it depends on what the conversation is Because sometimes hearing those stories is good because it can give you a little bit of hope And it can maybe inspire you or encourage you just don't try to completely mimic someone else's recovery journey because you're not them And they're not you I'm not you you're not me How's that for 11 minutes of seemingly mindless rambling and I've tried to keep it focused here This is I'm not going to go on much longer about this, but I think it's an important thing that sometimes we miss Because you know last week on the podcast I talked about social media use and being more intentional in your use That's one thing you can do. So if you look at episode 267 of this podcast or on my youtube channel You can use the thing I'm talking about today Like well, what am I looking for today? Well, I'm looking to see somebody's particular experiences because I need a little bit of hope and inspiration Cool Then go get that look for a success story look for a win. I've done a bunch of podcast episodes that are success stories That's cool But know that like today I'm looking for inspiration. I'm looking for hope. I'm looking for encouragement Awesome, then go look at what somebody did and use it as such. This is inspiring me But it inspires me to act and within my context and to apply principles Not to try to follow that person's footsteps exactly step by step because it won't work That can help you be a little bit more intentional in the way you use social media. It's a productive thing to do But know when you've hit the limit of that Okay, I got to go back to that thing that drew was saying where I start to apply the principles And sometimes applying the principles of recovery Is really really hard because it's counterintuitive and it's just loaded with paradoxes and it doesn't make any sense And it requires that you be brave and do things you don't want to do It's super frustrating super frustrating And I know it might make sense if I could just tell me what you did and I'll do it I wish it would work that way because it would make life easier on everybody, but it's just that's not a good path to take Once in a while for inspiration once in a while for hope once in a while for encouragement But don't try to use someone else's recovery as the blueprint for yours Because you're not them. They're not you. I've probably said that 10 times now in this podcast episode I'm not you. You're not me and you can accidentally wind up more frustrated discouraged angry Impatient and maybe not feeling so good about yourself because why isn't this working if it worked for that person? And that's not fair to you Right we're always trying to give ourselves the best chance of recovery And we're also trying to make sure that we work realistically And that we don't put ourselves in a position where we're negatively judging ourselves or losing hope for no good reason That's not fair. That's not cool. And that's it. That is this episode of the podcast in a nutshell Not a terribly long version of the podcast But it's something that it's been on my mind that I meaning to talk about it and today was a day lucky you So as always I will ask you that if you are listening to this podcast on Apple podcast or Spotify someplace where you can rate and review the podcast and you like it give it a five star review If you have a minute or two, maybe write a review say something nice about it And it helps more people find the podcast and more people get help Of course, if you're listening on youtube because there's nothing to watch today Thank you. Maybe hit the subscribe button hit the notification bell So you know when I upload new episodes leave a comment I answer all the comments on youtube by going at least twice a week left interact with you guys there But I think that's it go check out all the goodies that I have on my website at the anxious truth dot com The other books are there workshops and courses other podcast episodes a ton of social media content Take advantage of all the resources and remember No matter what you do today do something good for yourself Even if it's hard to do it doesn't have to be huge Every step counts. They all add up. They will get you there in the end I'll see you next week. Don't know what we're going to talk about, but I'll be here.  You can find us at disordered.fm


I have a couple questions. This is a presentation that I've adapted. I give this a lot to marketing crowds and professional architects to sort of preach the big fight. Actually, I need to turn on my mic. Can you guys hear me all right back there? More? Better? Here. How about now? All right. I should be used to this stuff, right? So this presentation is coming from a perspective of why would you use video as an architect, right? You guys are not, right now, licensed architects, but you might one day be, hopefully. Or you could become a filmmaker like me. So who wants to own their own firm at some point down the road? See the hands, right? So there's a good number of you, right? All right, so a lot of architects do. The majority of licensed architects are small practice. Small practice is a couple people, individuals. But the big question is how do you get work, right? This is something that they don't really touch on in architecture schools usually. And you sort of learn it by the fire when you get out into practice, especially also just even thinking of the business side. So entrepreneurship, marketing, all these things that you're not really exposed to too much in the study of architecture, but I want to sort of open your eyes up to this medium as we discuss. So.


I bet again. Hi, thank you. Hi. Hi. Thank you. Thank you. Okay. Okay. This is the employee incentive program. And is, I wanted to do just a committee discussion of this one. This one I believe is going to a tropes and I was hoping. Let me see if we've got any documents on this one. And David. I can help. I can help the discussion along. Madam chair. I was hoping we had somewhere a section by section. I thought we did. Do. Where is it? It's on the committee website. Under David Hall. Yes. I'm sorry. I didn't mean to offend you. I was going to amend it. No, that's the bill. And the other one is the side by side of the summary. There it is. Okay. Good. All right. And David should be joining us shortly. Okay. So, madam chair. If I might. Yes. Yeah. You want to. and finance is jurisdiction. We've talked about both of them. They're the many TIFFs or the project based TIFFs and the downtown tax credit. The last time we talked about, and I brought back the conversations from finance to Senate economic development and we've taken a position on some of the discussion that's taken place. So on the easy one, I think, is the downtown tax credit where I think we acknowledge that it's not good timing to be asking for significant increase in the downtown tax credits. They are at 2.6 in statute right now annually. As it came out of our committee, it went up to 4 million. And we did that primarily because the administration wanted to expand the scope of those downtown tax credits to include to be eligible to neighborhoods as well. And we didn't want to dilute the amount of money that was going to downtowns. Nevertheless, they've said, well, the neighborhoods won't use up very much and it's gonna be a phase in. So they didn't think there would be much dilution even though they've never told me they don't want the 4 million, but we're backing off the 4 million. So we're just gonna leave it at 2.6, but I have some language I asked David to draft. As I said, I would last time, just some soft language to bring attention to the money committees that this is a program that is valuable. We're expanding it in scope and if times change, let's say in the bigger budget in September, they might want to look at the larger number, but that's what we're doing there. And on the project-based tips, we feel, we continue to feel very strongly that they're a good economic tool. The administration continues to support that. We feel that the Ed Fund, if anything will improve and these small communities would be eligible for these economic development like the Westford project. So we haven't suggested removal of that section. All the other stuff in the bill, we're gonna strike a bunch of this stuff because they don't make sense appropriation-wise, but we'll tell the Appropriations Committee that. The Committee said that. But there's no, those are the only two things I see in the bill that really are finance-related issues. Okay, I'm glad that, because we've done that downtown tax credit. I think we just went up last year, didn't we? We went up 200,000 last year, yep. Yeah, we've gone up pretty regularly. I would like more information on the tips, I think. Well, we have Megan's, Megan, last time we spoke about it, we asked Megan to sort of price out the Westford thing and show how the money would flow. I think she's- Yeah, it's not the Westford thing, okay? I guess my concern are the towns. We've been talking about Westford and I think I understand they need money to do their match to get their septic systems. Now, there are other ways we could get their money. We used to do grants for water filtration systems, wastewater. City of Montpelier got the last clean water grant from the feds. I think the thing that disturbed me at the end of that was Joan Goldstein talking about her town with 100 users and they couldn't afford to put that in. They got one of the grants because with only 100 users, they couldn't afford to maintain the system. And I think that's one of the concerns. Who's doing the financial counseling for these small towns who may consist of three or four select people that may have absolutely nothing beyond high school math to deal with? They don't have a planning, they have a town clerk who's elected, but not any kind of a... She can do bookkeeping, but not necessarily any advanced finance. Who's doing the counseling to make sure that when they put in that water system that they understand that they're going... Do you have to also have a fund to maintain it? When you get a subsidized mortgage, there is a rigorous home inspection because the banks won't let you, they will not finance a project unless they're sure you have... That there's no known major expenses like a new roof or a bad septic system coming up. And I want to know who's doing that work with the individual towns. I think if I could... Senator Pearson, do you have... I have Senator Pearson to the head of question. Well, I defer to Senator Soraki, but I'd love Megan and Veggie to help us understand this because I would have assumed that was part of the application process. You're raising interesting questions that we should understand the answer to. Yeah, Megan. Megan, you're muted. There you go. Brilliant, so just... Megan Sullivan, executive director of the Vermont Economic Progress Council. That was absolutely a huge concern when we were coming up with this idea. We know that the TIF district program is cumbersome. We know TIF is cumbersome. There's a lot to understand. And narrowing it in scope helps that a lot. When you only have one debt incurrence, you only have one project, but still we know that there's assistance needed, which is why we went to the regional development corporations and the regional planning commissions to talk about what their role could be in assisting the communities on this. And they were certainly supportive and continued to be supportive of this proposal and of their ability to work with communities who may be participating in this. Related costs are allowed in the TIF district program and would be continued to be allowed in this so that towns could have that assistance. I think the other piece is that the annual audits so that we will know quickly if there are issues that are going to be required through this with independent auditors. So we have thought of that. We know that these are going to be communities who at least have the capacity that they have a village center or designated downtown. They already have some structure in place, but if they have a part-time finance person or a full-time planner who does some of the finance that we have other expertise in the region who will be able to assist with making sure the record-keeping is set up, how it needs to be set up, and with the financial piece of the debt service. Section five, because I want to see how that is laid out. Know where that starts in the bill, Michael or Megan? It's section five. I think it's section five in its entirety. Yeah, I know it's section five. I'm looking for the page for section five. Oh, I don't know if Becky might have. Finding things on the Economic Progress Council that may have gone too far. Madam Chair, I think it's page seven. Okay, it is page seven. And is there a reason why you have 15 of these that just seems ever done 15 tips all told? Why do you get 15? Quite frankly, Madam Chair, the administration's proposal, as I recall it, is larger. Okay, this is Economic Development's proposal at this point. Okay, no, I'm saying, let me finish in saying that we brought it down from what had been suggested because we viewed this as a pilot project. It's 15, if I'm not mistaken, it's 15 projects over a five-year period. But they could all happen in one year. I believe it's five per year at most, a limit of five per year. Right, okay. That's in Subjection B, Subsection B. Madam Chair, may I ask Senator Sorokin a quick question? Yes. Senator Sorokin, so what did you hear as the downside of this, of moving in this direction? I think I'm not sure we heard it in my experience both in finance and in economic development. We heard about these administrative hurdles that were barring the small communities from getting into this program. So it's just bigger cities that have qualified. But I think in some ways, because there are some people who don't like TIFFs and feel like projects would be built regardless of the TIFF help. And so therefore the Education Fund is losing some tax revenue. I don't personally necessarily buy into that theory and I buy into it even less for a small community like this. Right, for a small TIFF, yeah. What happens, Senator, to start out with, I like TIFFs. So if I have questions, you have a problem. What happens if the town builds a septic system? And if this works like a TIFF, they're planning on paying their share out of the increased value from the increase in the grand list, is that correct? They would be looking to pay a portion. So this is gap financing because this is smaller because we're only isolating a few parcels. This is really looking at what is the piece of a project that's left that makes it unaffordable for communities. So in the example we have, there is a cost to the users. The user rate goes up, I think it's about $750. There's grant money and what it is they're financing with the increment is that last piece that they can't get over the hurdle of. Right, but the example you gave us said that, there were some guys that might like to build housing sometime, but the example that you had was there was somebody that wanted to put a restaurant, rehab a building downtown, put a restaurant with a couple of apartments. All right, that's an existing building.  What if nobody, you know, the economy right now is very shaky if we go into a recession or a depression and nothing gets built for five years except the Seward's treatment plan? Who's or how is that town paying that gap financing? So I think on one level there's before towns move forward with infrastructure projects, you know, even if it's ones that they're doing on their own. They tend to have, you know, there's a lot of people that put their heads into when we move forward with something and have some sort of assurity that what they're planning for is going to happen. You know, I think in the situation that we have in Burlington, they have been approved for their debt, but they're not going to incur the debt until they know that this project is moving forward. What situation in Burlington? Well, the city place. So there's an example. They're not coming in for many tips. No, but I'm using that as an example of sort of one project that when the, you don't know what the development is that's coming or you were sure about there are changes. They're not just moving forward with incurring the debt and spending the money anyways. They're being prudent with making sure that the development is happening. And I think with project based tips similarly. I don't think I'd use that as an example because they tore down what was occupied property and now they have a big hole in the center of downtown with no occupied property. And somebody at some point that's somebody's losing money on that. My concern is we've used Westford, right? If they build their septic tank and now do they have a septic tank now and it's little and they need to build a bigger one or is this their original water system? They're building a full system. So they have, all right. So they will put it on. I assume they've got a district, a water district and they've got that all set up. But they're planning on using this TIF from increased development. Right. They're planning on keeping the part that would have been paid to the Ed fund to pay for the gap in the septic system. What happens if that development doesn't happen? The septic system is up. So you gotta pay for it. So we gave the scenario if 50% of the development didn't happen because again, I think saying that that they've been working with developers in order to make this come to fruition and they've outlined three parcels, one parcel which would be subdivided to say that the development on those parcels, all of that development at the same time would go away. You know, I think there would be a lack of due diligence done by MEPSI and the municipality if they went forward with a project and none of the development they were expecting happened. So what we gave was an example of if 50%, if they were expecting a certain level of development and only 50% of it came about, then at the end of the 20 years of making debt payments, the municipality would still need to retain their municipal increment and use municipal funds to pay off the rest of the debt. Sandra Campion. Would you agree, Megan, that this allows communities to be a little bit more tactical with their investments? I think it allows them to be tactical. It opens up new funding sources for them where match is required and they haven't been able to figure out, especially as a small community, how to get that match without raising taxes on their community and a level that would not be supported. And I think that it also opens the door to conversations. Some of the feedback I got from the RPCs was that these conversations around planning and communities often are hard. There's a hard start to them because people immediately say, well, we can't, if we don't know where the money's coming from, if we can't pay for it, how can we even discuss this? And knowing that there are going to be tools in the toolbox for communities to use to potentially say, what is it that we want for our village center? What do we want our village center to look like? Can we find the right partners to help us get there? And what do we need to do in the public part of the public-private partnership to get us there? And knowing that this tool can help leverage funds and close the gap, I think is an important piece in starting those conversations. Yeah, so what I have here from somebody in my community, I have a lot of respect for, also in addition to allowing folks to be tactical with their investments, but also to present the state with a specific project in compelling momentum instead of simple district boundary optimism and to provide developers and other partners with a clear local commitment that the men and women leading Vermont's 251 cities and towns will not offer carelessly. I think that brings up a lot of good points and a lot of good reasons why these could be a big asset. Yeah, very well said. Anderson. Senator Pearson. I got to say that I've wrestled with TIFFs over the years and I sit in a community that's taken advantage of several, but there does seem to be sort of a fairness element here where we're expanding a tool to smaller towns in a way that recognizes they've been shut out from the process that has benefited the larger communities. So I guess I'm fairly convinced that the review that you were worried about, Madam Chair, is part of the application process and the, I don't know, I wouldn't say I could sell it on the street corner, but I'd be glad to vote for this when we get there. Okay. It's a good headline. That's where we're at with Senator. It has one more committee to go through. I'd like to remind you that we do have $150 million deficit in the Ed fund right now and we're going to be taking money that may or may not. Well, but hold on because that's an important question. It's certainly going to come up as I understand that the construct does not take out of the Ed fund. It promises to keep the Ed fund whole and in fact give it more money. Unless after 20 years. Yeah, I mean, it'll be after 20 years. If the original taxable value plus 30% of the increment will continue to go to the education fund. It'll be the 70% on year one. As soon as yes, the OTV is set when they are, when debt is incurred and the OTV is set from year one, the original taxable value plus 30% of the increment will go to the education fund. But it's for 20 years. Yes. No matter how. So what if I would actually say if somebody, what if the city of Burlington, Chittany County continues to grow and spread north up the lake and somebody comes in and now because you've put in a septic system, they put in a large development of high end houses. Is all of that increment being kept? No. What increment is being kept? So it'll be the, the bill right now has 10 or fewer parcels will be identified as the area of for development and it would only be the increment for those 10 or fewer parcels that's being kept. And that's part of the reason we're looking at this is gap financing. So if, if there is significant growth outside of those 10 parcels, all of that increment would go into the education fund. What if there is significant growth within those 10 parcels and is there a limit? Could I have a hundred acre parcel? I don't, I don't know if any of our village centers are designated downtowns have hundred acre parcels. It has to be within the confines of the village center. Yes. The location of criteria is for a designated downtown, a village center, one of the designation programs that we have or in an industrial park is defined in statute. Okay. What if we just, or this bill authorize, no, the last bill, the neighborhoods, okay, which can be contiguous to the village center. Could you expand the village center? And I think it's not just towns, it goes towns and villages. Could you expand to a contiguous part, you know, a contiguous parcel, make mansions, and would that property tax revenue, 70% of it, not go to the ed fund? So it's expand beyond the 10 parcels or include those in the 10 parcels? Yeah, you can expand your downtown. Why not?  Could you make that neighborhood one of those 10 parcels? If it's in a designation program, it could be part of, but this is a one debt and currents program. So unlike the TIF district program where you're going to go to debt repeatedly over 10 years, as soon as you have your debt serviced, you're retired. So if you, in Westford's example, I think it's around $300,000, if they built a McMansion or two McMansions in the village center and they got $200,000 of increment in the first three years, then that would be paid off and the project would be done. They required to use that to pay it off or could they just lower water rates? I think it's this kind of fine tuning that's making, is anywhere else in the country done this that we can look to? There are places in the country that do project-based TIF, but not, I mean, Vermont is unique in our funding of education. So what we do with TIF is going to be unique. Yeah, it takes the money out of the Ed fund. Only if we say so. I know Senator, but that's what this bill does. It says so. So I'm just concerned because when you are dealing with smaller towns and I'm being hard, but I can assure you when this bill goes across the Zoom hall, they're going to be harder. That I'm concerned that this is happening quickly and I want to make sure that it is thought out and that the staffing is there and the expertise is there to make sure that these towns, they do not get themselves in over their heads. Like they build the water system and then, oh, the pipes collapsed or something goes wrong and they need to maintain it and the 50 people that are signed up on it say we can't afford to do that. And so we've wasted our, we've got a small water system that needs maintenance. A water system needs somebody to supervise it. Does the town have that ability? You know, does your office have the staffing with the training to supervise five a year of these as a pilot project or is the administration just giving away Ed fund? But how in your scenario, Madam Chair, how does the TIF district get impacted? Their obligation is to continue to pay the increment and know if the property value declines, they're still fixed at that rate. I'm not understanding the risk in that sense. I'm saying that it was Joan Goldstein who talked about the water system she was on with 100 people and they couldn't afford to pay to maintain their water system. And I said, so how did you afford to build it? And she said, we got a grant back in the 70s or 80s when the federal government was giving out clean water grants. I don't want to get a town into a situation where they build something and have a 20 year obligation to pay for it. If they are in fact bonding, which is what this is usually set up on and 10 years down the road, they need maintenance and the growth hasn't happened. So if the growth doesn't happen, their taxpayers have to pay it which they've already said they can't. And it's a very small amount of growth. It's not like downtown St. Albans where there will be and we do out the normal background growth gets figured out and that's taken out. So if this is a town where everybody's seeing development moving up north from the busy county, that gets taken out. I just don't want us, I'm concerned with the number 15 and five a year. I might try a couple. We never did 15 tips to start with. If I wanna make sure that we have the systems and the expertise in place to make sure that these towns don't get five years down the road and find out that I never rehab the store. There's no increase in the grand list. There's no money coming in or not enough money to cover the gap or they need a repair. And we're just looking at one septic system. We don't know what else. I mean, roads, we have other ways to fund roads. Is there any requirement that everything, you know, it's, I'm feeling rushed. And I, you know, because it sounds like a good idea. I just have this fiduciary thing. I would say, I would say, Madam chair, we looked at this pretty thoroughly. It's one of the highest priorities for the leagues of cities in town. I think the towns, regardless of whether they get a, assistance with this creative financing mechanism still has to have to take the project very seriously and can't just throw in a fly by night project that doesn't have mental enhancements to the grand list.  We can't just not take advantage of seeing our growth centers grow. And this is one of the more promising tools that I've seen that we're doing. You could come up with all the, you know, what ifs and all the, it's so good, then why isn't the administration financing it rather than asking the Ed fund to finance it. I don't, I, I don't agree with the statement that's been made several times that we're taking this out of the Ed fund. I think that this program is going to put money into the Ed fund. You're assuming that there's no development. There's no development. There's no development. Once the development, the fact is this development doesn't happen unless you do something to make it happen. So you're never even going to get that 30% into the Ed fund unless these projects are built. So walk me through. Step by step. How these towns. How these projects are developed. How, where the expertise comes from. What's. Good question, Madam chair. How, who's having the, the. Tough love discussion with the. So I think a lot of that discussion is happening before, you know, we might be in the know that someone is considering this, but if we're using the example of Westford, they have already found somebody else. Okay. So we're using the example of middle sex who. Has a developer who owns the camp meat area. And wants to. I have a feeling I know who that developer is. So. This is kind of interesting. Okay. So we have a developer who has ideas on how to make that a village center, a community center. But needs the public infrastructure in order for that development to move forward. And to get the commercial tenants that they would need. And without that public piece, they're not going to move forward with their piece. Now the town is going to look at what funds are available for the community. And what are the other grants funds are available? What is their bonding capacity? But recognize that their small village center does not have the bonding capacity to take on. All of the debt on their own. And to get this. Huge town with some fairly wealthy. Neighborhoods and residents. They are not without. Capacity. So.  Which is where, I mean, that's you. It's about investing in our village centers and downtown's and. Getting support for helping those projects move forward. So that this. The downtown of middle sex or the village center of middle sex. And that's where other development in that village center. Could happen because now there's. Do you know where, are you familiar with the downtown center of middle sex? I am. It's while it has a church, it has a town hall. It has the old camp mead. Right. At some houses. But there's a river and a major power dam that backs up. There is a bridge over the dam.  Because the bridge wasn't safe. A new bridge was built. But there's a cliff. There's an interstate and there's a river. There isn't a lot of room. To build in downtown there. I mean, family.  But there isn't room. To do a whole lot of moving in to downtown. Unless somebody's talking about eighth of an acre zoning. And putting up. And how does this comply with the town plan? The town have to agree. I mean, the town planner has been part of the conversation. So I assume they're. I don't know. I don't know. Is there any kind of a town vote required? There would be a town vote required. Okay. So walk me through the steps now. So if they're a quick question. Yeah. I'm just wondering, is the middle sex example, that's just, you're just, it's a scenario, right? I mean, it could be any small town Vermont. Yeah. I think we're talking about right now.  We're just talking small town Vermont. Right. Right. So if, if they're saying, you know, we can't get commercial. Development to happen in our village center. Because we need to allow people. Pedestrian ask access through. Sidewalks. We need to have some type of parking available.  And I've heard anecdotally from, from some towns that have said, you know, there are people who have told us if there was some place for us to be in our village center. Now that we know that we can work remotely, we would love to have a space here rather than commuting into a larger office space. But they, they can accommodate that. So it's really looking at, you know, can they access. They can access CDBG funds. What are the town funds that are available? And, and what is the gap that then keeps them from moving forward with this project? Okay. So start with who. Walk helps the town. That has no financial advisors. And I can assure you there's more than one banker and financial advisor that lives in middle sex. You get further a field. You're going to have less of a chance to get down into Orange County. You're going to have less of a chance. That you have town. People. With expertise. So when we set this up. I want to make sure that every town has. Equal access. To enough. Financial. Expertise. To not. To have a realistic program. And now we're talking about streetscaping. Well, I think is that where we want to spend. Ed fund money. Isn't that. Wouldn't we be better off? Isn't that what we do the downtown tax credits for? The downtown tax credits go to the developer. This program is for the municipality. So this is, this is the public piece of. Public private partnerships that bring development into our communities. So part of what Pepsi does is looks at the viability. And if somebody. Comes to us with an application saying, gee, we sure hope that if we build this. Someone might be interested. They're not. They're not going to be approved. The viability check is, do you have actual. You know, developers that you're speaking with that have shown interest that have signed an agreement that. Okay. So is there a signed agreement or contract before. Public money gets invested. We don't require a signed agreement. We know that in some districts, they have developed our agreements that are signed. But, but that's not a requirement, but part of the viability is looking at how viable. Projects are to move forward. And what commitments are. And who, who makes these decisions? So the information has to be sent in a, in an application to Pepsi and it's reviewed by. Our policy analyst and it's reviewed by the, the Pepsi council members. Under what criteria. What criteria. What criteria is it reviewed? The viability is, is the, does the market support the. The. What's being proposed is this, is this reasonable to. To see that what they're showing would reasonably happen in the market that they're talking about. And is the, the increment that they're expecting, does that make sense? For what the development that's being proposed is. And is that increment that is expected. Enough to repay the debt that they're looking at. That's, but that's what bankers usually have for a criteria for loans. I'm not a banker. Okay. That's my point. Do you, do you have. What are you analyzing? If you're doing bank work and you're not a banker. We have an analyst who does. Who looks at it. I mean, we try and make sure that there are more eyes than just the executive director. Or the program director, but an analyst who reviews everything that comes in. As well as our council members who have. A great deal of expertise in, in these areas. Bankers, higher advisors to give them similar advice. And once the bankers have made a decision to go ahead and do it, the bankers are on the hook. If it goes wrong. If it goes wrong. If it goes wrong. I would expect that if this goes wrong, I am on the hook. Do you post bond and can you. Can we go to you and get the money from you? I'm not sure if this is fair. It isn't fair. It's not fair. Okay. I want to be respectful of the witness. Okay. I've got Senator Pearson next. So. I'm. I'm. I'm trying to understand this because when we. Talked about the TIF program a few months ago. And we tried to get. Varying experts in to help me in particular as a new member. Of finance understand tips. And I was in a mood of. Being protective of the Ed fund. And we discussed the three year extension and that whole thing. I voted for that because. The overwhelming testimony was that the Ed fund is not. Quote unquote at risk. We're not rating the Ed fund. We're not costing the Ed fund anything. And so. I'm really baffled. Megan, is there a dynamic that you could describe to us. Or folks from economic development. Where the impact. Or the vulnerability. On the Ed fund is any different. In these very small. TIF. Proposals here that are now just. Block based in small downtowns versus. TIF district based. Is there any real. Significant difference in terms of exposure that the Ed fund feels. Or sees in your estimation. I could give a lay response to that. Okay. I think there's less. Because I mean, when I, when I. Met with. Sign X on the downtown Burlington TIF. My first question says. You want $20 million. To build a 200. Million dollar project at 225 million dollar project. How do I know that you wouldn't have built this. Anyway. And he says, well, it's really, we're on tight margins. And this is the difference. And we're putting in a proposal. For a TIF and Pepsi has to review it. And you have some faith in that, but it's all about the butt. For test. I don't know whether he was telling the truth or not, but the Ed fund doesn't suffer. If you assume. That the project wouldn't have been built at all. If you didn't do this. And that's over 30 years in the example of Westford. This project's been on the table and they've never been able to find the financing and the gap financing. To build it. So I don't think you're going to see downtown Westford. Anytime soon have a project on its green. Unless we help them here. So that benefits the Ed fund because now they're going to have. Their grand list go up. Where it never would have gone up at all. They won't get a hundred percent of it initially. But it's going up. So. Having it go up from a place of nothing is an improvement as far as I can. I think on a small scale. It's probably safer if that's your fear. That the Ed fund could lose money. I think my fear is more that the towns are going. To get very enthusiastic. That. And get in over their heads. I would feel much more comfortable. If we did this. At five. And see how the five go. I don't know why we need to do 15 and five years. Why not do five. See how they go. See if in fact. We have. The capacity. The difference is that. Larger towns. Have finance departments. And directors. And planning directors. All of whom have. Training. Small towns. Have select boards. And a town clerk. All of whom are elected. And have no guarantee of any training. So they themselves at risk. The question is. Is the Ed fund somehow at risk. The Ed fund. If, if it. Grows. All right. And if it grows. More. You know, I don't know that the Ed fund is any more at risk. I think my, my concern is really the two. And Graham has got words of wisdom. You're still with us, Graham. Yeah, I'm still very much here. All I can say is that, I mean, our office is written a fiscal note on this bill. And. We've costed the mini this as it's currently written. To. I mean, we use the same methodology that we use across all taxes. So the way we're treating mini tip program is how we treat all tax expenditures. We had it costed out. Anywhere between 500,000 a million dollars. Cost to the Ed fund. In the future. Probably not very much in the beginning years. But I think that. Not putting aside about four question here in terms of the costs, the Ed fund. The legislature could easily appropriate. X number of dollars to small towns. And that would, if we wrote a fiscal note on that, we would say it would be fiscal impact on the state would be X number of dollars, regardless of what the project would happen or would have happened anyway. And you might get, you know, corresponding grand list growth. I'll set that. This is scored sort of in the, the similar way. It doesn't really matter to up from a fiscal impact standpoint, whether the legislature is. Is spending money or like in the way like a downtown tax credit or appropriating new funds to, to adopt economic development project. So that's really, really important in the future. I just want to specifically offset any of the. Any potential new growth here. So the fiscal note that we've written on this as a fiscal impact on the education fund. So we're depending upon the size of the projects and how. Between half a million and a million dollars. In the out years. Okay. And that's pretty year. Okay. Senator Brock. that there is only an impact on the education fund relative to the tax increment itself. In other words, if there is no growth, there is no impact on the education fund, is there?  That's the whole point. There is no impact on the education fund from simply doing this. The impact is if there is some growth and the growth is not as robust as perhaps it's intended. But again, the argument of creating these many tips is, and I think it's much more clear than it is with the larger tip, is this stuff isn't going to happen. Lightning isn't going to strike in Westford and make those buildings habitable for occupation and income growth without this. Now, that's point one. The second point, though, that I think would make everybody more comfortable is if we had a mechanism to provide, since these, I think, probably are a higher risk than some other things that we do in this area, is if we were able to figure out a way to have a reserve of some kind established, that reserve may come indeed from other activity that Veggie does with others to set something aside as a reserve in order to deal with situations that perhaps fail. And again, I just throw that out from the top of my head. I'm not necessarily from Veggie, but a reserve of some kind. So in the event that a municipal, a small municipal project, like one of these we talked about, fails so that we have some backing behind it so that it doesn't create that catastrophe locally. Senator, I think what you're saying on the first point is right.  I like the analogy of whether this would, imagine it's more an appropriation, right? Imagine we were appropriating $500,000 to small towns to build infrastructure, right? Imagine that the money wasn't spent necessarily every single year. We would still count that as a impact on the general fund and appropriation on the general fund. I understand that nothing would get built maybe in that situation when it's a carry for our carry for a reversion in money. But I think if we get into whether we have something would have been built or not, it just presents a difficult situation for our office to accurately score these bills. And I think if you apply the same logic, if you use the same logic for TIF here on other things, then lots of stuff costs no money. The downtown tax credits, how the heck will we score those?  I mean, for instance, well, we might be getting a very large return. If we didn't give the credit thing, these kids might not go to college. There are costs. I understand the point. I think our office, and I think the reason why we score it this way is because it's written into statute when we present the impact on the education to the emergency board every year, we use the methodology. This is a methodology that our office and the department of taxes agreed upon. So I understand what you're doing and why you're doing it. And I understand the methodology and the basis behind the methodology, but my point is to me, the methodology is misleading because what it does is it leaves the layman with the impression that by passing this, we've done some sort of a raid on the education fund by taking money away from it. And the point is not true. It's misleading. I would add just using, I agree with what Senator Brock is saying and I just wanna take your analogy one step further using any town, Westford or whatever. If you're saying that if no development happened, that there would be no impact on the education fund. But if a million dollar building was put there and the education fund got $300,000 or 30% of the tax on that, the education fund would have 30% more money in its fund than if nothing was built. So we don't want anything built there because it's gonna cost the education fund. I think it is misleading in this case. And I quite frankly think it's misleading in a lot of cases where people come in with economic development plans and they can show pretty clearly that the payoff is gonna be there, but the only thing that comes out of, I'm not faulting you, but what comes out in the fiscal note is what goes out. They don't wanna say what comes in and that's what's happening here. And so I just, that's why I'm a proponent of TIFFS because I think TIFFS are a creative way to stimulate the economy and they don't actually cost the education fund money. They actually bring money into the education fund. Okay. My concern is the exact opposite of that. If nothing happens, the town of Westford who has said they cannot afford to pay for this filtration plant or sewer plant has to pay for the sewer plant, which they've said they can't afford to do. So what happens if nothing gets built on those three parcels or nothing gets built on two of those three parcels? But that's just, that's a scenario that in part, correct me if I'm wrong, we're trusting local communities to make those decisions. Exactly. They don't make those decisions though. Developers do. Remember we had... They don't make the decisions either. Windsor, that they had to get an extension because the economy went south right after they got their TIFFS. I remember that was three months ago in another world. We... I think that's actually an example of how they did not move forward with projects when it was not an economically viable time for them to do so. Right. If they had moved forward with the projects and then didn't get any of the increment coming in that they needed because they move forward with them regardless of what was happening in the economy, then that's a different conversation. I think the project... The project, because you're coming for one project, you have three years from approval to incur the debt. You're not... It's not the same as the district program where you're sort of saying, here's 10 years worth of projects that we're looking at doing, 10 years of worth of development that we think is gonna pair with it. And then going for it. Madam Chair. I worry that the thought is that our municipalities are going to, on their own, try and go for things without having some certainty of what's coming down the line or that they would get state approval for these projects that they've been working on and pulling together and pulling partners together for years. And typically if it's wastewater, then they're working with DEC and the staff at DEC on what that project is and what their users are gonna look like. They're working with their RPC. They're working with the RDC on the developer side. They're working with Vermont Leagues and Cities of Towns on the finance side. I think there are a lot of partners who are out there to help. And that's part of, if this passes, that's part of what we'll be doing is really getting out to talk to those partners and make sure that the policies are written to guide this program well. Why this? We just did gap fundings for the CUD through VEDA. Why TIFFs and not gap funding, which is a lot more straightforward. We could get a loan from VEDA, we put money in VEDA for that gap between the time you needed to start paying and the time you got people signed up and paying into you. I just, I wanna know why. And I think a lot of these projects that they have, it's already a multifaceted approach. They already have a lot of players. If you look at the Putt number lock project, I think there's 21, Senator Campion may be able to speak to that, but 21 different funders and pieces in there and they're all necessary to get that project off the ground. And to get all those pieces to play. And I think that that is the case we're looking at here where people have looked at all of the resources that are out there and have access to the resources that are out there, but they're still finding that there's a piece missing. And if the point of this is to create new development or redevelopment, it's not a maintenance. It's not to repaid your loan. No, but my question is we've dealt with water and sewer and public infrastructure projects for years and TIFFs came out. I don't have a problem with TIFFs and I'm not gonna fight the Ed fund thing. My concern is bringing this down and so many of them without doing being sure that we have the system to help those towns in, you know, once things, you know, you don't run, you don't... If things don't come on, I mean, none of us anticipated the last two months. We were tooling along, you know, we had almost zero unemployment. We had, you know, the money was coming in and now we're here. I just wanna make sure that we, if we are promoting this, that we have the structure in place to make sure that the towns have the support they need to have these be well-developed projects. And that's all I'm trying to figure out. I've got Senator Ballant and then I'm going to do Senator McDonald's. Okay. Madam Chair, I just, I wanna bring us back to what you were saying earlier, that your main concern is with the towns. Obviously you come to this committee having been a mayor, you understand town politics in a different way than some of us who've never served in that capacity. And so I'm wondering, is there some language that we can include that would help you to feel better? Because it sounds like what you're saying that we're kind of, we're putting them at risk. And maybe I misinterpret it, but... No, I mean, my town had a very good planning department, a very good finance department and a very good city manager who was trained. I am more concerned about the times who if they have any manager is part-time and shared with several other towns who have no finance, they have the town clerk and a three-person select board. I wanna make sure that the state has adequate resources and the poorer the town, the fewer the resources and the more they need this kind of financing. I wanna make sure that we're there. I think if we weren't talking 15 projects as a trial, I've never seen a trial of 15. I usually we do a trial of three or four, maybe five, just to make sure, because, Megan, you've got what? Two people in your office that you mentioned that would do this. That's not a lot given that you've also got a whole bunch of tiffs out there. Right. And I also wanna see this go. This is the easy sledding. This is, Bill is gonna have a much harder time in appropriations and it's gonna have a much harder time in ways and means. I wanna make sure that we've got it at a place where it can go and that we don't bite off. Or then the towns can chew. Well, I appreciate that. So that I wanted to get more of a sense of where you're coming from. I know that I speak for the team from Economic Development Committee. I think I also speak for Senator Campion as well is that we really do see the need for this in our smaller towns. But I want you to feel better about this. So I'd like to try to get to yes and I understand what you're saying. It doesn't make any sense to pass it out without us turning this stuff over if we're just gonna get slammed in approach and ways and means. I appreciate that. I just, I hope that we can get to yes because I think a lot of smaller towns need this. And the folks who came into our committee, they didn't seem like they were taking this matter on in a cavalier manner. I think they knew exactly what it was that they were asking their town to take on. Of course, we all sometimes get in over our heads but it was not about something that they hadn't thought about for years and years about how to make it work. So just wanted to offer that. Thank you for the clarification. I appreciate it. Senator McDonald. Madam Chair, I want to apologize to Ms. Sullivan for treating her unfairly. And part of the reason that she was being treated unfairly is because of the position and the job that she holds working for people to approve loans. And it is unfair of us to say to her, well, if you make a bad judgment in Pepsi, are you gonna pay the money back? And the answer is no. That's an unfair question. Banks have arrangements that when banks make poor judgments on approving loans, there's a consequence. And they are on the hook. And they have to have as I think Senator Brack mentioned, banks have to have reserves. They can't go loan money out as they see fit. They have reserves, they have to have that. And one of the premises that we're operating on is, if everything goes as the planned, the Ed fund will gain money, will have more revenues from property taxes. If that's the case, if the economic case is the state Ed fund, they'll have more money. If we do this, then the Appropriations Committee should provide the GAP funding. The GAP funding that allows these projects to be built and it results in a increased amount of money in the Ed fund, then the GAP funding cost the state of Vermont. That simple math, bankers, any banker that you ask would say, yeah, if the loan's gonna pay for itself and the state's gonna be better off with more money in the Ed fund by appropriating this money up front, like a bank, do it. But we're not doing that. And the small towns are, have traditionally, when they've gotten grants, it's been from the Appropriations Committee and they are competitive grants. You put out the criteria. This is the money, the various towns compete and there are people who win. There is no competition here. It is a, someone is, again, perhaps unfair to Ms. Sullivan again, but Ms. Sullivan isn't signing the checks so that the towns can buy a car and if the town fails, Ms. Sullivan would be on the hook if she signed that check. But they're the ones that are saying go ahead and do this, but they're not on the hook for anything other than their reputation. If we put the money up front to these loan the money from the Appropriations Committee and knew it was gonna go into the Ed fund, the state would be ahead of the game and we're not doing that. So this is using the Ed fund as a bank. It is. And if the towns go south, that's, yeah, this is not the way to do things. And I represent more small towns as a percentage of my population than anyone in the Senate. So. One, I appreciate that Senator McDonald and I know it may seem like semantics, but it's, you know, Vepsi, the Vepsi Council who does the approval is approving a community to use this tool. It is the voters who have to approve the loan. The community still has to go to its voters and say with the backing of the full faith and credit of the community that they are going to take out a loan that would be repaid with TIF if the increment is available. So it's, it is not, I am not approving the loan. The Vepsi Council would approve a project and the voters of a community would have to approve a loan. Thank you for that clarification. I don't know if it would make you feel any better. Our grants program manager is a former student of yours. So I hope that helps you feel better about the due diligence that's. I think you just made me feel nervous. Stephanie Barrett is a former student of mine, so. Oh, okay. That's good. I could list them, but I won't. The presumption in this is if we're only for this small amount of money that the would be fronted from the Ed fund, the projects wouldn't happen and the Ed fund should be delighted to do this because they'll earn more money. And if it's that's true, then the, you can fund it out of the appropriations committee because the math will still be the same. They'll pick up the gap and fund to get more money and every once ahead. And I resisted the temptation that's solved it from talking about semantics. But when we're talking about business and loans and things like that, we should try hard not to use the word partner because that is a slang term that people use unwittingly. Bankers don't use that under a partner is someone who has taken on the same debt that their partner and is equally responsible for paying it back. And it's, I'm not going to stop the world from using that term colloquially, but that's what one is. And so thank you. I'm going to assume that one of the criteria on the application is that, and I'm hoping it's an agreed upon project will owe enough property tax to cover the debt and that that is well analyzed because I really can't see how rehabbing and existing building is going to add enough value to the grand list to pay the gap financing on a filtration plant. It is well analyzed. What the projected developments are and what the increment is are both pieces that are analyzed during the application. Is any contribution expected?  And if you go through act 250, you're going to pay part of that additional cost. You're going, especially if you're building something commercial that you're going to sell and make a profit on, is that part of any of these or is the town just saying, well, if you build, you'll pay your property taxes, we'll keep your section or the school section and we'll pay off the sewer plant for you.  Is that in any of these plans or are we, is this just a way to kind of, are these so small that that's irrelevant? I mean, are we putting in the infrastructure? I know there was one locally that couldn't build a senior community because it didn't have septic capacity. Well, if that's a for profit and a really nice senior living facility and that town gets one of these grants, is that other than paying the property taxes they would have paid anyway, is that for profit facility not going to be required to also pay an impact fee? So there's a delineation of what is an allowable TIF cost and what is not allowable and those wouldn't change. What's an allowable related cost? What's an allowable improvement cost isn't going to change from this program and the district program. So, you know- So we've just translated all of those TIFs. Right, we're talking about the same type of improvements, the same type of related costs that are allowable but we're talking about one project. So defining that project as one of those improvement projects instead of 10 or 12 different projects that may span a lot of those different types of improvements. So if I put up a hotel in a TIF district and the city runs the water and sewer line with their bond out to my hotel but the town has an impact fee in place for the capacity I'm taking up in their water filtration plant or their septic system. Am I still expected to pay that impact fee? Yeah, I mean, the developers costs aren't going away. The developers are still paying their fees, the developers are still paying their property tax and you think that's how Vermont's TIF program is different than some TIF programs where it is where the developers are the ones who are getting the break, not the benefit isn't going to the municipality. So the municipality might build the water line, they might build out the utilities but the hotel is going to be the ones who are doing the hookups and paying the additional town fees. Okay, all right, it's after five. Oh, we're just getting started. Good Senator, you can stay here and talk to yourself. I'll keep everybody with me Senator McDonald. I applaud everyone's patience, I had realized it was after five. It's actually been good today Senator, I just don't keep seeing your hand, it's good. Okay, thank you. Thank you for putting up with me but I do come out of town governments and I've been in an awful lot of town offices and I know that there's a wide variety of expertise and ability available to towns. And I think I get, it sets me off wrong when somebody comes in and says, this is a great development project and it's not going to cost anything. I was about to say there's no such thing as a free lunch. That makes me, I just, that is not my experience. If it doesn't cost anything, then why don't we just give them the money? There is a cost somewhere. If they're getting state revolving loan fund, if they're getting Northern Board of Regional Commission funds, I mean, they're looking at every opportunity they can. You know, I can tell you these communities are... Can you share with us, and it may be in the bill, but the kind of regulations or is that going to go through rule?  We ask for that as part of an application as to what are the other funding sources that you've identified. And then certainly in the TIF district program, that's something we ask for our annual report. And we say, these are the funding sources that you identified in your application.  Okay. What monies have you gotten and have you gotten any additional monies? It's, you know, it's something that we, that we push communities to really look at every opportunity out there for funding. Limited to 5,000, 5 million, a project? I think it was 1.5. 1.5, getting five, because it was five a year. Right. But that's one point, all right. Yeah, okay. Okay. Okay, committee, well, I haven't had a chance to check my emails. Thank you, Megan. I'm just going back to schedules. I haven't scheduled anything from tomorrow, except we can either watch live stream. I haven't gotten to read my emails to see if representative Briglin has gotten back to us. But next Friday. So after, after the consultants turn in their report, Catherine is going to set up a meeting for us with the consultants. So we can go over their report, what they've done. It might be good to listen in tomorrow if we don't get a formal invitation out or former, yeah, to be there. Because I know that the house committee has been looking at a lot of those changes in the broadband, the licensing, and all the little things who you have to jump through to get a hole in a wire up. So it might be good to just kind of hear some of these things they're doing before we get a bill dumped in our lap with two days to turn it around. So thank you, it's been a long day. Thank you everybody. And we'll get this one back on.  I think we're ready. I was gonna say, I think I would probably be gonna write up a proposal to limit that to five for at least the first year, just to make sure that we're ready or sunset it after one year and then come back so that we do get a chance to take a look and see how it's going. I think, I understand it is limited to five a year, is that right? Five a year, but it's a five year, 15. I would rather have us, it's like 248A, I would like us to have to come back and see how those five are going, who those five are, just do a reassessment. So when do you plan to sunset it? I would say, I mean, I'd like to have a way so that next year we come in and we say, okay, how did it go in the first year? And make sure that we are kind, this is a new program, no one's done this in the first year. If we put it up right now, let's pass this bill right now. What would the effective be? Let's do five projects in two years and review it in two years. Madam Chair, we in the Senate Economic Development Committee were on the same page as we, and we brought this thing down from where it was proposed. And I recall, I think we can still on the line, I think we try to do a three year sunset and there was concern that because of the timing of how the money went out, you wouldn't know at that point, but she could speak to that. But we try to. Okay, but I want to have less than 15 and I want to have the legislature take a look at how this is going before we get 10 years down the road and we have a problem. So that's kind of what I would like. I will be amazed if this bill makes it through. And I think the more it is put up as a true pilot project, the better chance it's going to have to make it through both bodies and out of here this year. So we have Megan here. I don't know if you want to hear from her, but I remember us raising the same questions and the administration saying that. Michael, don't talk to me about the administration. But you want to hear why we said it at the level we said it? Yeah, I want to, not what the administration said. You face the good idea. Why did you do it? I'm trying to say to you that we were told that if you cut it off at three years, there wouldn't be enough information or experience because of the timing of how the money gets out and how the projects. Okay, then do five projects and come back in five years and tell us how it's going. And if it's going better than expected, come back next year and ask to have that five expanded. But to keep doing five a year with no check back and to have, if we don't assess the first five, then we don't know if there's anything that should be altered in the second or third five. I think our committee would be fine with an assessment every year that this goes to the extent there are things to assess in those years. It is 15 over five years, so that's three essentially. We could limit it to three a year. The most they could do would be a total of 15. We gave them a little bit more flexibility, we said a total of 15, but it didn't have to be limited to three a year. We could certainly talk about those things. We're not trying to make this more than a pilot, but really aren't. Yeah, it works. And I'm trying to get one that feels like a pilot with the appropriate safeguards so that it has a better chance of making it through. Because, as I said, I'm the only pro TIF person out there right now outside the Economic Development Committee. So it's gonna have hard sledding. Senator McDonald.  We, I was on the committee that passed the first TIF. What we have now is the same problem with definitions that we have with broadband. They're not the same TIFs. Okay. I think that's our cue, Madam Chair. I think that's a good, that's a cue. We can go off live stream, we can all go. I'm gonna go talk to the guy about banning tear gas.