Hello, and welcome to the Drum History Podcast. I'm your host Bart Van Der Zee, and we are here today for part two of the Alex Van Halen gear series with Kurt Ekstrom. Kurt, welcome back. Hello. Thanks again for having me. Yes. Appreciate you giving me so much time and being so thorough. Part one was incredible. Since we recorded, I have now had my third and final child, so I have a newborn baby here, so it's thank you very much, which is insane. And we're doing this at 8 a.m. because with three kids, I'm working on everyone's schedule, and you were kind enough to do it this early with me, which I really appreciate. The cool thing you said, I liked when you said the band is now complete. The band is complete, yeah. Unless, you know, so we got two drummers, then we'll have to figure something out. But yeah, we are, we're done. I can't, I can't handle anymore. They're too close. They're close together, so they'll be friends as they grow up and things like that. But this is going to be a long one. We stopped last time on around 1985, 1986. Kurt, let's jump in, man. So where do we pick up with the ending of part one, now on part two, in the mid-80s? So we kind of split where it's sort of a debate as to whether David Lee Roth left the band or was fired or, I mean, it's really, it's an evolutionary thing, but they just sort of part ways and there was a brief query where they just, the band, Edward, Alex, and Michael did not know what they wanted to do. And in, you know, came the fate with Sammy Hagar and quickly glossed through that. They, Edward's Lamborghini mechanic hooked him up with Sammy Hagar, who had a Ferrari in the shop. And so Sammy came over to jam and to see how things would go and they actually discovered it was a, you know, they had some magic there. So they immediately, you know, brought him into the band and started working on ideas because Edward had already had some ideas that he was planning to use for potentially next album with Dave that never materialized. And so Sammy apparently came into the studio and run off the bat was banging off melodies and lyrics and everybody was blown away. So they started to work on what became 5150. So the studio, as we talked about earlier, Edward had built the 5150 studio and they recorded 1984 there. Well, so they recorded 5150 as well there. And they obviously, they used Don Landy again. And Alex this time for whereas in 1984, he was playing half Simmons and he had Rototoms and all that. I guess he decided at this time he wanted to go full Simmons, except for the snare. And so the entire kit was mostly focused around the Simmons pads and, and, you know, the Thomas snare again. And so one of the things that we, I think we talked about it before and, and it seems, you know, a little odd to me, but Edward has claimed that they used the Simmons because they were worried about, you know, there was too much bleed from all the other instruments to have all those mics. And I'm sure that was partly true. But at the same time, I think Alex was just really into a Simmons phase and he wanted to do it personally. I actually saw a comment from him later on where apparently when the album came out, he was kind of really not happy with the way the drum sounded just because of, I don't know, I guess he just didn't like it. But he actually got a comment from, it was like Jim Kelton or somebody like that. I can't remember exactly who it was, but they gave him this compliment telling him how much they liked the album and how creative it was to use the Simmons. And so, you know, I guess it made him feel better about it. But I don't really have any photos, except this one photo where I know that Edward used to do a lot of demos and recording and stuff. So this, I've got this photo here. You can see in the photo that there's a red SDSV kit in the background. You get the China up there. You got this, the other bass drum is sort of tucked in behind, I guess, the baffle behind there. Yeah. Which there's a China there. You're thinking like, okay, I thought you guys were trying to eliminate bleed. Well, that's what I... China's as bleedy as it gets. Yeah. The whole thing is a little confusing to me. And the other thing that is confusing to me is that I know he had the regular Tama snare. But when you look at this picture, that's clearly a maple snare in the background or a maple finished. So I don't know if it was another Tama that he had. I've never heard anything about this. I just don't know. But you can see a wooden, it looks like a maple snare on this kit that's in the background.  I'm going to guess that it's another Tama. Or, you know, this photo, I think Eddie actually did a soundtrack for a movie called The Wildlife where he played pretty much all the instruments on everything. And it was just little pieces and snippets. And I think he did this in between like 1984 and the 5150 album. So it's likely that that may be set up like there's a version of what eventually became good enough where Eddie played all the instruments on it. Like basically there's a drum machine going, but he put fills in there from the Simmons kit. And I mean, who knows, maybe this was a setup that Eddie was using. There's, I'll tell people, there's a episode all about the history of Simmons, which is kind of a, which is kind of a cool one to learn about this and how they were made and the, it's an English brand and all that stuff. But it was the thing to use.  The other thing that's kind of cool to know it was like, I actually, and of course, you know him, John Christopher, we've talked about him before and he actually worked for Simmons in the 80s. And I was talking to him at one point and I think he said he was working there when they sent over, you know, some stuff up to 5150 for Alex. But so that's kind of cool. And so they worked on the album, completed the album. When Alex went to go on tour, he decided he wanted a kit that was probably similar to like the 1984 kit. But this time he ended up using Vistalite shells again, which is another thing I'd be curious to know like where he got the burn, because as we mentioned in the earlier episode, when he had the 1981 Fair Warning kit, a lot of discontinued Vistalite shells around 81 or so. And so by 1986, Vistalite shells, they just, you know, they weren't making them anymore, at least Ludwig wasn't. And so he got this kit. And you can see like a side view of it here. And he's got his Rosewood snare and all that, but he outlined it with the Simmons pads once again. He's got octabands in the front. And he's got like Pistie 2002s around the kit. The other thing he did, you can see in this photo, when he really just, he never used them was, he's got like Vistalite floor toms, tucked underneath the Simmons floor toms. And he never used them, you said? And he never used them. Like they were there, I think just like much like we were talking about the 1984 kit. Yeah.  You just see right through them. You need a little more to it. So this is a, so again, to explain for people on listen just to the podcast, the audio, this is a full acrylic clear kit, the bass drums. And it's got red hoses coming off, which are connecting to his whatever auxiliary bass drums. Is that again the same kind of resonance technique where he's running? Those are the tubes that connect the two? They're actually functioning? I would say no, because he was triggering Simmons bass drums. I just think it was a lot of stuff was for the show. A lot of the stuff was for a look. And, you know, I really don't think those outside bass drums really did anything. They have a mic on them. It looks like there's a mic, but it could be just for the show again. It's possible. I mean, you have a good point, like they do have a mic on them. So it's possible that they tried to combine maybe the sound of the Simmons and then sort of mix in some acoustic bass drum, but it would seem to me just from guessing a Vistalite shell that was, you know, basically like resonating without any like muffling or anything inside almost seem like would be more of a hindrance to, you know, like a sound guy than anything, especially when the sound of the Simmons is a lot more direct.  And then again, you can see the massive boom stances using with those holding the symbols up. So those bass drums are, what do we have here? They're like 28 by 26. And then like 28 by 24. And then, of course, they got the radial horns inside with the Vistalite bass drum. I think this was like one giant piece of acrylic. As far as I can tell, it wasn't like he took, you know, two existing bass drums and joined them together. So I'm guessing that he must have found a plastics company or something to assemble this kit somehow. It's a very odd kit for the most part. And this is kind of an interesting story because I mentioned in the last episode how I really wanted to see that 1984 tour and it didn't work out.  And so I ended up getting my brother, who was like a year and 14 days apart, we ended up going with these friends. And of course, you know, it was my first major concert. Like I mentioned before, Buddy Rich was the first thing I'd ever seen. But it was in a high school. And so this was... This is Van Halen in an arena. In an arena. And it was my first time. And the interesting thing to note, because I was so clueless at 15, that like, I just kept thinking to myself like, I wonder where Alex has said, is this going to rise up from under the stage? I just couldn't tell. And the opening act that year was Bachman Turner Overdrive. Apparently, Randy Bachman was a friend to Sammy Hangars. And so they went on a sort of a nostalgic tour for 1986.   But their drummer was, I believe was Gary Patterson. And I think he was also in the Guess Who. Well, he was playing this little Yamaha kid. It was like a four-piece kid. I'll never forget. And, you know, he was perfect for what he was doing and all that. But I just kept on wondering where Alex's set would be. And behind Gary, there was this big sheet covering what I thought I figured was amps and stuff.  Like, it was 10 times the size of the one that Gary was playing. I was like, oh my God. And so I just couldn't believe how big it was. But they had just had it covered with a sheet. And it just didn't dawn on me that that could be the set.  They were coming through a PA, they sounded incredible. Like I just, I just, the minute he did a roundhouse, filled around that thing, I was just like, oh my God. Like, wow. And so it just, it's planted the seed for me to say, you know, I need to get a, like a set of Simmons drums. And of course, being 15 and not having one idea like what, what that would entail. And so, you know, this was the kid and he used it throughout this tour. And let's see if I can get some more pictures of it. Hey, it was, you know, it was pretty massive. Yeah, it's a, it's a huge kid. Four, three or four bass drums. Four bass drums. Four bass drums, like usual. Yeah. So he kind of has his aesthetic. Like, yes, it's changed, but it's got the octabons in the front, the four, four bass drums. Now there's a row of Simmons behind that, but he's got the, the gong, he's got the connecting tubes. He's got the kind of the horns in the bass drums. So he's really got his, the kit looks similar. Like he has like the blueprint of it. Yeah. The drums have just changed. And it really, honestly, it's, it's pretty much like looking at the 84 tour set minus, you know, except they're just all clear. Like the sizes are similar. And, and, and of course he's got, as I said, a couple of floor toms. I think they're, I think they're both 18 inch floor toms that he just tucked underneath the pads. Here's another shot. And you can see the snare drum too. It's that same Thomas snare drum. You can see again, once again, his hi hats all the way up.  That's the muffling. That's just, that's how he's doing it. Yeah, but I mean, but it's the funny thing to note is like, as we're going along and like, he just did different tape techniques and sometimes no tape and it still always sounded like Alex. You know what I mean? No matter what he did to that snare, he just always sounded like him. Yeah. And I actually saw a comment from Sammy Hagar once where he said that during this tour, there was one point when he just, you know, walked over to the kit during sound check and hit the snare drum once. And he said it was the loudest thing he ever heard in his life. Like it just, he was like, I don't know how that guy sits back there. Like I just, you destroy it. And, and I don't think he was wearing any ear protection in those days.   I mean, yeah. And this is, you know, for all warts and all, this was 1986. I mean, I was there. I lived in people war spandex pants and, and, but you know, so, so it was pretty cool.  So one thing. Have you heard any like horror stories of things like it crashes or it doesn't work live or anything like that? I mean, I haven't. I didn't care anything like that. That would be interesting to note. Like how many like, I'd be curious to know using a baseball bat size stick, like, like, did he have 25 pads like on tour with them and they just swap them out? I mean, yeah, really?  And that's, it's, that's it, you know, like, there's no velocity.  And like, and when you've hit that drum at full volume, like, that's it.   With no rebound. And that was the whole, that's the big complaint. But it's neat to go back to when I did the Simmons episode where they were like, I mean, these guys were like spray painting, you know, painting the body of these pads and like the attic of this building and then carrying them down the fire escape. And then it ends up in like, you know, California with in an arena with Van Halen. It's like, it's a cool story, Simmons. This week's episode is proudly sponsored by GM Designs Custom Symbols. GM Designs is far from your average symbol company as they specialize in creating one of a kind symbols that are truly unique. Their extensive product catalog features over 100 symbols. 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Explore their gallery of products, find store links and discover their latest features at GMDSymbols.com. Don't miss out on the incredible craftsmanship and innovation at GMDSymbols.com. Yeah, and you could see kind of in this shot here, like the bass drums on the side, how long they were, you know, they're like barrel-like bass drums. Yeah. It's, I mean, and I will say, you know, seeing it live, it was, it was a really cool looking kit. You know, the Vistalight was actually a cool choice. You know, you could see them a little bit more. And it was just, it was an interesting choice just for aesthetic, I guess. Is he basically on a new kit every year at this point? Every year-ish? I would say to every degree. He's on a new kit basically every year. Okay, wow. He never, every single tour there was something different. That's awesome. Why not? Good for him. And again, we talked about this in the, I mean, I think it was probably more so emphasized in the David Lee Roth years, but it was all about the show, you know, like everything was all about making the show bigger and better. Whereas, I mean, I feel like it wouldn't the Sammy Hagar years, not to rag on David in any way, shape, perform, but he was more of a entertainer or he was more of like a, people call him like a ring leader and all that. And whereas in Sammy Hagar was a technically proficient, better singer, he was also a guitar player, which freed up, you know, Eddie to go play some keys. And in that first tour, like Eddie did actually play keys for, you know, while Sammy did some of those, the guitar solos on songs like Love Walks In and Why Can't This Be Love? And so, you know, it was kind of neat to see them sort of move around. I know a lot of people like to say, they like to see Eddie the guitar hero, but it was nice to see him, you know, switch instruments and show. And so, you know, Alex, of course, still tried to cater to the show with his drums and all that.   I didn't never got to see that. But you can see in this next photo, you know, it's like somebody captured the shot right when the, you know, that's awesome. Yeah.    And um, you know, for a 15 year old, it was, you know, it was obviously a pretty cool way to end songs. And you can see over to Alex's left, that big huge box next to was like, you know, before the gong and in between him and the gong, that's the, the SDSV brains. So he had the brains over there. Although, I mean, I think likely he set the parameters and it was like a Senate and forget it kind of deal. But those things are weird because like, you got to remember like, like Prince used those things on um, you know, Purple Rain. And so some of the sounds that Prince got are nothing like the sounds that Alex got. Alex went for more of a traditional sort of a Simmons Tommy sound. Whereas then like if you listen to song like, um, when Doves cry or what, I mean, there's some really weird Simmons noises going on. And so it really only takes a couple of tweaks of the brain to sort of rearrange that sound. So if somebody, went along, you know, like if somebody's five year old went up there and said, hey, and twisted all the knobs, like it would probably, yeah, take a while to get those sounds back. Yeah. Or I'm sure, you know, there's probably wax pencil or whatever, white little marks that say where, where to, where to have it. But, but yeah, you'd be, it's tough. And the fun thing to note when I'm talking about that as well is like one of the parameters that you can adjust on there is the amount of decay. And so I feel like, like if you watch the video they have, uh, which, you know, it's the perfect video to see any of this is, um, Live Without a Net, which was actually filmed two weeks after the show I saw. So, I mean, it was super close. And so I love watching Live Without a Net. I've seen it a thousand times. And because, uh, it's just, you know, reminds, it's literally like watching the show just two weeks later. And, um, but the sound of the Simmons on that there's a little bit more decay to them. And when they recorded the album, it almost seems like they'd rolled off that decay. So the Simmons had more of a, I don't know if you want to call it a dead sound, but I preferred the way he had him tuned or I guess, you know, the knobs moved. I had preferred the way he did it in a live setting versus the way it sounded on the, on the record. It sounds a little bit, a little bit sort of dead to me on the record. Um, it's still interesting, but it just, they're a little more lively sounding. Um, the other thing, let's see. So here's another cool shot of like a full-on.  Oh man. It's just like huge. The tubes and everything look awesome. I mean, yeah.  Here's another shot of, you know, him at the end of or whatever. And you know, it's like the big gong. It's just, it's really cool.  So the other thing to note, and this is the last picture I have of the 50 and 50 kit is that Sammy Hagar did a video. He made a solo album in between 50 and 50 and the next Van Halen record because he had an obligation with his former record company. So they, they made a video for a particular song. I think it was hands and knees, but um, but they included some of the Van Halen guys in it.  And they're all, all the guys are busy and they show a clip of Alex jamming away on his kit, but he's playing the 5150 kit, but there's no Simmons pass. So it's almost like the whole kid is made up of Vistalint drums, which is kind of weird. So I have this one shot you can kind of see and you can't really see the toms because he's blocking them. But that is the kit.  Like I don't even know whether this thing was, photo was taken. Yeah, it's, it's again for to describe it. It's a chain link, not even fence. It's like almost like, it's like a, like a UFC looking kind of like octagon type deal, but it's, it's pretty tough looking, but there's no Simmons pads at all to the kit. And from what I understand, um, I think this kit and I believe the diver down kit may be the only two, two kits from the old days that he still actually owns. Like I think he's donated away a lot of them. And I think he still has this kit sans any of the Simmons stuff. Like I think all that stuff is gone, which, you know, which is kind of weird because a lot to him. Yeah. Well, it's a little odd to me, only because the Simmons, the Simmons drums are like, you know, the main component, like, you know, that was the focal main component of that set and they're gone. So I mean, maybe he likes just, I mean, clear Vistalites have a certain thing to them that are just cool. They're just cool looking, clear anything, DW, whatever brand, they're just, they're neat looking. So yeah, that's a cool one. And I mean, you know, sure he's got a little bit of sentimental here and there. I know I've said that he's not overly sentimental, but you know, I mean, I think he's got some stuff, but and so the last picture I'll show you, which is somewhat embarrassing, but as, um, as I mentioned, I was really like, I got heart to trot to get myself a Simmons kit. And so I, um, you know, I no clue what I was doing.   And the only thing I could recall is that I believe that the black was sold out. And so I was too patient to wait. So I went with white. So I tried it and I bought these like cheap rocker bass drums from Ludwig brand new and they were, they were so low end.  And so, oh, that's cool. And so, yeah. So I had, you know, like five Simmons pads. So of course a Simmons kit comes with, you know, the kick drum and four pads. So I couldn't be conventional.  So I custom ordered five pads. And then I, and of course I didn't realize at the time that when Alex got five Tom sounds from Simmons, that he had two brains, like, like a brain, a very expensive. Exactly. A Simmons brain comes with, you know, kicks, snare, and three Tom's, although I think with the SDS Vs, you can probably add or subtract whatever in it. But at the time, you're like, I'm looking at a Simmons brain that came with, you know, the Tom, the three Tom's B. So I could, if I wanted to, I could manipulate the bass drum to be a floor Tom, but the snare drum didn't sound like, you know, so I got convinced by the store that I needed to buy a drum machine and a trigger.  But the one thing I wanted to note is like, you know, like here's like one of the pads that I still have. But if you look at the playing surface on the pads that were, you know, that I had, they're, they're more of a rubber. And they're a lot less, you know, harder than the SDS V. So I was kind of wondering why Alex, you know, even though he had a Simmons pad pretty much all the way up until about 91, he always remained with an SDS V pad. And I always wondered why he didn't just have one of those, the newer pads that were a little less, you know, cumbersome on the wrist. He must have liked it. Who knows? I guess so. And there's a lot of Simmons purists out there who just, the SDS V's are it. And I, and I get it and all that. And the other last thing I'll mention about the Simmons, which was cool is that several years after I bought this kit, I was in a music store and by the early 90s, when grunge had come out and all that, the Simmons were like, you know, they were a joke. So I bought a Simmons SDS V, an SDS 8 brain, which I discovered had all the same sounds that Alex had, although it was like a cheaper, smaller version, but it has twistable knobs on it. And and so I paid $40 for it back then. And there actually were some money now, but but so if I wanted to, I can get those sounds now, which is kind of funny because I really, That is awesome. I really, you know, fought to try to get those sounds. And it just never, I never sounded like it back when I had the original kit in the 80s when I bought it. But I'm glad I kept everything in there, you know. Yeah. All right. Well, where do we go from there next kit? After that tour, Van Halen took a little bit of a break. And then they, you know, Sammy put that solo album out and then they got back to work. And they started recording the OU812 album. And once, you know, and in the studio, I've heard that he used some Simmons kicks again, but he had acoustic toms this time. And so it sounds more like an acoustic key, acoustic album, but they still were using the main room of 50 and 50. There wasn't a drum room yet or anything like that.  They figured something out. So that came out and Van Halen actually decided when they went on tour, they went on tour and the monsters are rock.  And so for this tour, Alex created this monster size kit.  I mean, tactically, I guess the OU812 kit was likely one of his biggest. I mean, look at this thing. Yeah. How would you describe this? I mean, it's a circle of drums. It almost looks like somebody puked up a drum set, you know, like it just like it. You're just playing.  So it's the normal four bass drums, but they're extended. It seems like he could sit any direction he wanted and be on a different drum set. The stage obviously you'll see in this picture, it's a round riser stage that lifted up, but the stage spun in different directions.  You'd see Neil spin around and play the back kit. Well, you know, it's the same similar fashion where he had different sets for different things. So some of them were, some of the pads, some of the drums were triggering some electronic stuff. And then he had regular acoustic toms, but in power tom depths. And then he had, believe it or not, he had a North set. If you ever remember the North drums. Yes. I was just noticing that in there, kind of tucked in between. Yeah. So he, I heard this story somewhere. I wish I knew more about it, but apparently he acquired this vintage North set that somebody was selling somewhere and it was white. And so I think if I were to guess that he built the kit around this North set. So here's another photo and you see the power toms, but the other thing to note you'll see in this picture, which is clear as day, is he's playing like a very large, like an either, probably an eight by 14, Thomas snare. You can see the Tom, a logo in this picture. Yeah. Loves the Thomas snare. That's for sure. Yeah.  And, and he's also using a, like, I'm going to guess it might be an early form of rims mounts. I forget when rims actually came. On a rack. Yeah. And he's on a rack. Like I forget when rims mounts came out and stuff, you could see him using like these rims mounts on the, on the toms. And then you can actually see like on the, the bass drums, you can actually see the seam between the two kick drums. So on the, the kick drums, I think were 28 by, like he actually went, I think some smaller sizes, 28 by 22. But if I were to guess, he probably made the kick drum smaller just for the power toms depths.  Yeah. Yeah. Now, is that like behind him? Is that the gong? I believe so. Okay. Cause in, in one picture, the one, the aerial kind of one that you showed before, I'm like looking at it and I'm like, or is that some giant stretched? Like it looks, it's the gong, I'm sure, but at some angles, it looks like a giant like stretched like frame drum or something. I don't quite, I don't honestly quite understand or remember what that was because like the colors washed out of it. Yeah. I mean, I saw this tour and I, and I remember him having a gong, like not like a, not like that, but I don't know. Cause it, it has like a center.  Oh, so speaking of, so speaking of symbols, like here's an ad they did for Pishti and you can actually see like it lists all the, you know, you can see in the picture how they have all the symbols set up.  A, like a, just a theater auditorium.  Yeah.  Hours. I mean, easily. I'm sure they got it figured out because like you said in the last one, like you'd kind of probably at the end of the night, you'd want to get done and get to get to party and that's another thing I probably should have mentioned in the, when we're talking about 50-150. So Alex's long-time tech friend, Greg Emerson left. And so I don't, I don't know exactly the reasons why he left, but I think, so when Sammy Hagar joined the band, the original Van Halen manager, like, like they parted ways with him. He actually wrote a book, not a while that long ago, Noel Monk has a book, but they, when Sammy Hagar joined, they actually took Sammy Hagar's manager. And he was actually a really smart guy, like a real good business guy.  And so I think he just sort of cleaned house as far as like, you know, sort of starting from scratch. And one of the things that happened was Alex ended up getting this guy, I believe it was his name was Rob Kern, who now became his tech around 1986. And so I think it was more of like, you know, before where it was Alex's buddy that probably didn't even play drums. I think Rob Kern was like a real bona fide, you know, drum tech. So setup was probably more efficient and more like processes, processes and things like that. And may have been. And I mean, obviously, I can't rattle on Greg because I mean, all the years that he did, you know, whether he was a drummer or not, I'm sure he learned it pretty quick. And he had he had a lot of drums to set up in those early years. So I'm sure he got good at it. But Rob Kern was probably a likely a drummer. They probably were easier, you know, to soundcheck if Rob Kern was able to soundcheck the cat. And so so yeah, so he took on the job. And the other thing to note, and I will touch on this just ever so briefly. But it's sort of relevant to the story is that Eddie and Alex's father sadly passed away in between the 5150 album and the 82 album. And when he passed away at 66 years of age, he had basically been a lifelong alcoholic. I think I think he was kind of pleading with both of his sons to sober up. And so Alex, which I just find just pretty amazing, just basically like quit drinking.  And supposedly he just like stopped, like done stopped. And I find that pretty amazing that that he you know, I'm sure maybe he might not have been, you know, I'm sure it was probably some grouchy days where you know, he didn't get it. But the fact that he was able to just quit and stop like that is amazing to me. Because obviously, as the as we all know, it took a lot longer and a long time for Eddie, you know, it just was harder for him. Yeah. But you're in Van Halen. You get you get it. I mean, not I don't see you get a pass, but like, you're the prototype of like rock and roll, like excess. So good for him. That's great. I mean, it's the other thing to note too, obviously, when you say all that, but at this stage in their lives, every one of them was married.  And, you know, Sammy Hagar already had kids, his older sons, like my age.  But I mean, you know, they were things got a lot more serious. And I think that was another thing that bonded them when Sammy Hagar came in the band. It was just, you know, they were a lot more on the same page as far as like David LaRoss never been married. And he's, you know, just, you know, he's more of a free wanderer. And they're, yeah, they're older. It's a different generation. Exactly. So responsibilities. Yeah. So I think Alex is playing probably, in my opinion, between this period of 1988 and 1995, I feel like his technique really got refined. Like you'll see, you know, and like, you know, if you watch videos from like 91 and 95, like he's really started to like hone down on his technique and he's really got that stuff down. And the other thing real quick to, so we, you know, move from this kid, but like the, he also had one SDSV pad, you know, with the, you know, coming through the brain where he would do the end of his solo, he would do the big build up. And, and if anybody was, you know, wondering like this kid was like live, there's actually a pretty good pro shot video from the OU-812 tour from Japan from 1989. So they finished up. So basically they played the Monsters of Rock into the summer. And then when the summer, when the Monsters of Rock tour ended, they went back on the road all, you know, on their own. So when they went back on tour again, I saw the tour again. And it was great because they were out on their own and they got, they played, I want to say close to three hours. And the other thing I mentioned before in like one of the earlier episodes, I have a friend of mine now who actually recorded at 5150. And he recorded with his camp co-kitten there named Len Campanaro. And he was in the band Private Life, which was produced by Eddie. He produced their album. And so they recorded it at 5150. And I think they, you know, he could correct me, but I mean, I think they recorded it between the break between Monsters of Rock and when they went on the road again. But when they went on the road again, they took Private Life as the opening act. So I saw Private Life, you know, and Len actually got a brand new Ludwig set, courtesy of Alex Van Halen, hooked him up with Ludwig. And so he got a Ludwig kit, which he still owns. And he's still, he's still gigging every weekend, which is kind of cool. But he's a really cool guy. And he had some great stories. But my point of this was that he recorded with Don Landy engineering the album. And he recorded in 5150 with an entire full on acoustic drum set. You know, and the album sounds fine. No problem. No problem. So, you know, it worked fine for him because the drum room wasn't built. I mean, I think after the tour ended in, you know, those Japan shows in 89, it was like February or so, they took a really long break between the next album and all. And in that time, I think they basically added to the studio and they built like a drum room. So now they had this completely like sliding glass doors into this second area where they could put the drum set back there and completely isolate it from everything. So they put a lot of work into doing that. The other thing too is I can't really tell in this picture. He eventually started using bay internal mics for toms and stuff. And I can't tell if that's what that is. That's down low on the one of the toms there. But he definitely got into those later on by the next kit. Yeah, which really cleans things up to use those. I'm sure there's pros and cons to every kind of mic-ing system.  These things weren't being clipped on. So it cleans things up. Yep. So as we move into the next phase here, so I told you they took a pretty extended break. And the other major change they had is when they released OUIT-1-2, I guess they were not as quite as happy with some of the sounds on the album the way, you know, Alex was every much as bit of a tone chaser that Eddie was. And he was always looking for that elusive drum sound and the way he wanted things. And I guess Alex finally, by the time the next album came out, which was, you know, for unlawful carnal knowledge, I guess he really just sort of brought his inner John Bonham out because I mean, he was a big John Bonham fan as well as Ginger Baker. But when it came to this album, they ended up using Andy Johns as a producer, who was the guy that basically engineered Led Zeppelin IV. And so Alex really went kind of crazy with trying to like get the bottom type of sound. So all the Simmons, all that was gone. No more, you know, Simmons kicks, none of that stuff.  I've heard conflicting stories of what it actually was for the studio. But he got this very wide open sound.  You know, also on OUIT-1-2, Michael Anthony is barely audible on that album. I don't know what the deal was with that, but he just was... I don't... Beans did that. I never got the Metallica famously. Yeah, it's right at the same time. I don't understand that at all because that... I can't barely listen to the injustice for all with like the lack of bass in there. It's weird. But Michael Anthony sort of suffered the same treatment when it came to OUIT-1-2. His bass was really low. So when it came to do this album, he kind of said, Andy Johns, you know, hey, the bass was kind of low in that album. Can we bring the bass up? And he goes, well, yeah, just turn it up. You know what I mean? There you go. There you go. You know, and I think he was... Mike was probably playing like an old Fender Jazz at the time. And so they got this Led Zeppelin phase going. And so the album has a little bit of a Led Zeppelin thing going on with it. And the other thing too, with like, you know, you listen to old Led Zeppelin records, Jimmy Page would call it the army of guitars where he would overdub all these different guitar parts. Eddie sort of got into a little bit of that. Whereas in previously, he was mostly like, you know, did a lot of the one take, you know, solos, everything in the... I think there's a lot of layered guitars on the Unlawful Carnal Knowledge album, which is a different change. In the essence of going on, you know, Led Zeppelin, I think when it came to the actual like the tour, Alex really like took a left turn from the previous kit. He went from this OUIT 1.2 kit, which was just a behemoth.  He got this, you know, I mean, you can't get any more radically different than this.  He's got more standard depths on the tom sizes. So he's got, you know, 8x10, 8x12, the 16x16, 16x18. But the bass drum is like a 20x22, I think. And so it's this big, huge thing. And then he's got kind of almost like a throwback to sort of the Van Halen II set. He's got these giant, I don't know, I think they're just attached on somehow.  They're probably, what would you say, like 8 inches in diameter, 6 to 8 inches.  And I mean, it's, it looks cool. It's, it's a big giant pipe. It's like huge spurs, you know, to keep it. It's definitely, but this kit was complete, complete left turn. And of course, he's using a rack.  But he, I don't know if he's using an SDSV as the brain or not, but the sound is not, it's not very clicky. So when you, when he does the roll at the end, the sound just really gets lost. I don't know what the sound was, but I can't say I cared for it all that much because it just wasn't, it didn't have the same attack or the sound of the SDSV. And it could have been a V and they just altered the sound somehow. I don't know, but I don't think it is. It doesn't sound like a V to me for the brain. But nonetheless, he, you know, we had a pad in there and this is the last time you will ever see a Simmons pad in one of his kits. And it was getting out, they're getting out of style at this point a little bit, but 1991 we're in. And so the band they brought on tour with him was Allison Chains. So they're into the grunge and all that. And, and so they embraced, you know, they embraced that Sammy and Eddie got along great with the guys in Allison Chains. And so it sort of kept them, you know, they were, there were a lot of bands that disappeared in those early 90s. Yeah. It almost looks like he has auxiliary hi-hats over on his right as well under the ride over there. Or am I a mistake?  Actually, you know what? They do look like hi-hats.  They look like X-hats there. I don't remember seeing those before, but yeah, those definitely, you know, that's the thing with him is like, we've talked about it before, he was always changing stuff around, like moving, you know, experimenting. It's very difficult to sort of pinpoint exactly what was what because he was constantly, you know, experimenting in. And that's the funny thing that, you know, that I love about Alex is like, he's definitely one of those guys that does his own thing where like, you know, there are a lot of people that you can say like might follow trends or this or that, but it's like, if he wanted to do something, he was like, this is what I'm doing and I could care less what anybody thinks. Yeah. And I mean, if I want tubes coming out of this to that, he loves the tubes. Yeah. That's his thing.  And he would always be like, who cares? It's my kit. Like, I don't care. It's awesome. It's cool.  But it's like, no, that is more drums equals more drums to look at equals, it's awesome. And it's more just gear is the gong, a couple of things here. The gong looks like maybe it's back down to the 40. Yeah, I think it is. I think it is actually. And then are those the firework tubes back there? So there's so the gong on top has, you know, whatever, one, two, three, four, five, six, seven, eight ish tubes. You could be right about the fireworks, but I think those might be lights. Oh, lights. Okay. Something visual. What are those? Are those his monitors, those kind of covered boxes? I think, you know, as I said, we've discussed, he liked, he liked to have Eddie very loud and he needed to hear Eddie. And it almost looks like those are Eddie's cabs, but they covered him up just to take away some of the harshness out of it. So as you mentioned, a couple of minutes ago about how they're, you know, so by 1991, now they're like 12 years into, you know, not including the club days, but you're like 12 years into a professional touring career. And then you added all the club days. I don't think Alex ever wore hearing protection ever. So I would well imagine by this point in his career, he was probably took a real beating on his ears. Yeah. And heiste symbols are, you know, they're great symbols, but they're loud. They can be very bright and loud and they cut through the music really well. So I imagine his ears took a real beating on this. You can also see, and it's hard to really see on this. I may have a better picture down the line.  Like it's just, I don't know if you can kind of see it, but he was also using like, I think it was another eight by 14, but it's like a tom, you know, another tom of snare, but it's in a chrome finish. Now, I don't know if he did what Neil Pear did and just like, you know, Neil had that slinger and then they just rewrapped it or stained it to match a kit, which I can't believe he did that, you know, but whatever. I just would have been scared that it would have changed the tone, you know, like I'm one of those guys where like, if something sounds good, I don't want to touch it again. Yeah. Like I've had heads on snares and bass drums for like 15 years. Yeah. I was the exact same way. Like if it sounds good, like I'm not going to mess with this thing and it blows my mind that Neil would just like rip a finish off or, you know, I don't know. Yeah, whatever. Does he have a double bass pedal? Yeah. He's always played double bass, so he's got a double pedal of some sort going on. And I think. Would that be a Ludwig or would it be a DW? I'm trying to think of a Yamaha. I think it's either a Yamaha or a Tama. I think he was kind of like doing, you know, and at this point too, he was starting to use some DW hardware here and there. Just for, you know, ease of, I mean, Ludwig has always been great drums, but I think they've always sort of fallen a little behind as far as the hardware goes, at least back in those days. And obviously, things turned around for him. Like the whole nostalgia Ringo thing has kept Ludwig alive for years, but they had some pretty rough years in there in the late 80s, early 90s, especially when they were transitioning from Chicago to North Carolina. It's actually kind of, you know, a little sidebar story, which is kind of funny is I took a factory tour in 91. And in a real brief, you know, when I got to the end of the tour, I actually said to my tour guide, who's Dick Jurrock, who, of course, I wish I'd known this, worked at Ludwig in the 60s. I could have asked him a million questions, but I was 21. I didn't really know who he was. And so I said to him at the end of the tour, do any famous people come through the tour, knowing full well that like, you know, I was kind of thinking about Alex in my head. And he said, yeah, well, you know, we've had at Shaughnessy here, we've had some other guys. And he goes, are you a Van Halen fan?  And he goes, oh, gee, he goes, that's too bad. And I said, why is that? And he goes, well, we've been trying to get Alex to take this tour for a really long time now. And he was actually, we lined him up to come. He was actually supposed to come and he looks at his watch and goes, you would have been taking the tour without it. And I went, wait, what are you talking about, Willis? You know, I was like, what? And he goes, he goes, yeah, we had lined him up to take this tour. And it was the same time that you're here. But he goes, Sammy Hagar got sick. So they had to postpone the show in Charlotte, you know, make up or something like that. I was like, are you getting me right now? That would have been a once in a lifetime. I mean, that would have been like nothing else. Yeah, it's like a tour of the factory without, okay. But it wasn't meant to be. So it never happened. It's almost like, don't tell me that. I don't like now. Yeah. But what could have been? What could have been? But, you know, what did they say? It could have been a contender. Oh, well, but yeah. So anyway, with this kit, you know, so it's a pretty basic kit. I think, What are your thoughts on it as a Van Halen fan? Do you see this?  It's a small bass drum kit. Or is it? I don't actually hate it at all. I'm sure it was better for the sound dying too, to like sort of have a lot less to deal with. But truth be told, I mean, I just, when you're talking about Alex Van Halen, I think he looks best with at least two bass drums. I don't think he has to have, you know, four bass drums, but he at least has to, you know, I just like the look of him with two. Yeah, it was a nice, again, like with the Simmons, like I knew the Simmons couldn't last. I thought it was really cool for the time, but he moved on to other and this was just another phase in his career, which I thought it was cool. And again, I like the fact that he just didn't care what anybody thought. Like, you know, he was when he sounds good on, it's, it's him. He sounds good. And you can put him on, you know, playing brushes on a pizza box. And I'm sure he would sound incredible. Absolutely. And his feel comes through everything. And so I liked the kit. But so as we, he used it all through 91 and 92 for the tour. The tour lasted a long time. He actually, I used it for far as I know, like a little bit into the early part of 93 when they did some European shows. But they actually released a live album and a video from those, you know, 91 shows. I guess they recorded the bulk of it in Fresno, California.  But when they first went out or they were, you know, he was touring with that other kit, the same kit. But from what I've been told too, like I've talked to like Todd Trent, who used to be the artist's relations for Ludwig and all. And I think there was, I know there was two sets, but there may have even been three. So identical sets.  And so I know there was two, but there may have even been three. So when I went out to Las Vegas in 98, and then I think I told you I took a trip to LA and I saw the fair warning kit. When I was in Las Vegas at that same time, they actually had one of the tour kits on top of a bunch of slot machines. So this is a picture I took. Oh, cool. So there's the kit on top of some slot machines, which is weird to see, like, walk around in this casino hard rock. And there it is. They're like, wow. But I think somebody told me that this particular kit was the one that he used in the European shows. And of course, you know, whoever set it up did a whack job of it. And they're, and they have a super sensitive with it. And then you can see, it also looks like he uses a Remo muffles, you know, those things that they used to make Remo made, and you put them in. And so there's like, you know, no padding in the bass drum, but a Remo muffler. So yeah, so that's, you know, that's that kit. When they moved on and then they went back out and they went to the 93. He actually got another double bass kit. And so, you know, at this time, Ludwig was making classic drums. They were making, so I think shells came in either six ply or four ply. And, you know, they made probably 80% of the drums were all six ply maple shell. And so they were called classics. Classic maple drums didn't come out until about 96, maybe 97. So I know there are a lot of people that like to call like, you know, 70s, 80s, classic maples, but they weren't invented until much later on. And the early classic maples was like a nine ply shell. And from touring the factory, I saw like they would put the plies of wood into a mold and offset them all kind of like what Gretz did.  So he was still playing classic series drums. And so when we get into this next kit, let's see, it's a maple finish. He's using like an eight by 10, eight by 12. And then he's got like 16 by 16, 16 by 18 in his bass drums are like 24s. Now this, you know, even though he had some awesome kits back in the 80s and all, I really like these sizes for Alex. I think they're great. When he goes to an eight by 12 and a nine by 13, sometimes it almost sounds to me like the the toms can get a little bit lost in the 26 in an arena.  So they're spread between a 10, 12, a 16 and an 18. It's a really cool spread. So you get some really great, you're low end out of the 18, but you get a nice cutting fast attack out of the 10. And so and then the 24s were just the right manageable size to get a nice punchy kick sound. And then it's around this period. It looks like in his picture, I'm trying to see, he might still be using a Tama for the snare drum, not a hundred percent sure. I could see like it looks like the gate hanging down on that snare drum. And I think that's definitely not something Ludwig did. So it may be another Tama snare drum. And then butt end of the stick looks like, well, he had these sticks too that was made for regal tip made them that were just butts. There was no tip on them at all. Yeah. Cause it's grip on the bottom, which yeah. Yeah. It was a little odd and I failed to mention in the previous kit, I think he was playing the signature series for Pisces and he used those for a bit, which I can't say I've had some signature series and I love Pisces symbols, but the signatures always sound a little on the gong-y side to me. Whereas in the 2002s feel like they're a bit thinner and they have more of a shimmer to them. So I much prefer hearing Alex on 2002s versus Pisces signatures. And that's just total preference for me. But you can see it looks like he's playing 2002s in these, in this photo here. And you can see like he's got and I'm not a hundred percent sure. I'm really sorry, John, if I'm going to screw this up, but John Douglas, I may have done the artwork on the bass drums. John Douglas later became his tech, but I think it may have started out with him doing some artwork for him. And of course, John Douglas is a super talented creative guy who, you know, later became his drum tech and that was playing with or was playing with Aerosmith and does amazing work. And so looks like we have headphones on now. Yeah. So he's using headphones to hear. So Eddie went from playing the keyboards live. He only did that really for one one tour. He did a little bit of it on the OU12 tour, but they started sequencing keyboard parts. And so for songs like Jump or Why Can't This Be Love or Dreams or whatever, you know, they, Alex had to hear the tunes. And so they were, he had a kind of like Neil Perry and his giant set of headphones. You can see how they're sort of taped to his head almost. And to keep from like rocking back and dropping off. And I don't know if he would get bored on tour, but you can see he's got like some really crazy Foo Man shoe thing going and, you know, he starts, you know, like, hey, you know, they start getting into that. But there's not a very, there are very, very few pictures of that kit. I really couldn't find many more than that. But it's a pretty standard, you know, classic set of Ludwig's maple finish. And around this time, Ludwig was pretty much stopped offering wrapped finishes for the most part was, I mean, I could attest, I, you know, the wrap finishes were having all kinds of problems with shrinking and cracking. And they just, you know, going through a bad period with that. But the, but the natural drums were good and all that. So, so they did this tour. I actually saw two back to back shows. The thing that's interesting to know about tours is when you go and see one show, and this is always sort of made me think when I do a gig, that like when you go and see all these shows, and people are playing a certain way, like you're only seeing one night out of how many shows they do on a tour. So I saw back to back shows. And I'll never forget they were interviewing Van Halen before the show on a radio station.  So he's taking a nap on the couch. And so he wasn't part of the interview. When we did this, I saw the show that night. He played great.  He always played really well. But it just like, it just, I don't know, it just was like he did the show. It was good. They're human. I mean, they're people. And the next night, I went back for the next night, well, apparently Joey Kramer and Stephen Tyler from Aerosmith were there being Boston guys. And I could actually see him standing behind Alex's gong. And the second night, I mean, it was the same show. They did the same thing.  I mean, it was like the same as the night before. They played great. But I felt, I felt it. Like I felt there was something energy wise going through my body that was not there that first night. And Alex just, I mean, he crushed that show. I'm like, I just, I, it's so weird to witness that to think like, you know, because you're right, people are human, but then to see them take it to like, okay, this car can do 80, but I'm pushed it to 120.  They're like, wow, he really put the, put it into that night. So I was going away. The trick to a great show is to have Stephen Tyler standing behind you and Joey Kramer. That's the secret.    Yeah, exactly. That's very cool. So they go, they finished that tour. They went back into the studio and to record the balance album. They were working on that album. At this point in the band, there were some tensions going on. The band's manager had passed away from cancer. And so he was kind of, it's weird. They're almost parallels, the Beatles in some way. Whereas in, like, when Brian Epstein died and they had sort of all these weird things going on and a lot of that happened to them. And all of a sudden, there was some mistrust going on with Sammy Hagar and, you know, it's all drama stuff, but they, they recorded this album, Balance. And Balance album, it's a really great sounding album, but it's a lot more of a darker sounding album than any Van Halen previous album. It just sort of, you know, maybe the grunge that was coming out, who knows. But the other thing is that Alex was getting a little more experimental as far as maybe in the studio, like I've seen some studio footage. And he was actually using some DW toms. Like the first time I had ever really seen him stray from Ludwig. He was using Ludwig bass drums and floor toms, but he had some DW toms. And, and I think, and I, again, I think I heard this from Jim Canalano.  And I think there was a small, small period in there where Alex was, Eddie, Eddie basically had started getting his guitars made by PV. And so I think there was a small period where PV was trying to court Alex and get him to potentially play their drums.  So it's really hard to see. But Alex is actually playing a PV radio kit in this video. You know, I think it was just basically like, they were, he just was trying it out for some reason.  So, um, yeah, thankfully, Alex never, you know, straight from Ludwig. Because I just, I think of Ludwig, I think of Alex, you know, and so when he started the Ballet Tour, he had a kit that was very similar to the previous kit, the Maple Kit from the, the right here, right now tour. But he used more of a, I guess, power tom. It was, it was close. And I think the bass drums were like still 24s. But you can see like his, maybe like an eight by 10, but it was probably like a 10 by 12 or something. You know, it's a longer, longer tom. Maybe he felt he needed a deeper tom or whatever. But he's using like an emerald shadow, I believe was the color called. Yeah. I like it. It's got a nice look to it. Yeah. I like it a lot too. It's a, it's a green, green color and it's a very cool. But the thing that's odd to note and I'm still, again, I don't really understand the reasoning for this is halfway through the tour, he got another kit, which was basically the same kit, but it was in like a, either a mahogany or a cherry stain. So like there's actually video of them playing at the Toronto Amphitheater in 95 and he's playing like a darker colored kit. It's just, there aren't a lot of great photos of that kit. And it's, you know, it's a dark finish. So it's hard to tell, but looking at the catalogs, I'm going to guess, you know, it could either be a dark mahogany or a cherry stain. I don't know why there was a need to like switch kits around or change in the middle of the tour. But he doesn't usually do that. Yeah. He doesn't usually do that. It's usually like one kit for a tour, but this is far as I can tell the only tour where he literally had two different kits of the tour, two different colors. And it looked like in some of the photos. And again, there aren't a lot of photos from this tour. You can kind of see that, you know, the green stain in there. And he was using, you know, like a rims mount. He's using May internal mics still. And I believe it's a Tom, you know, another Thomas snare, like, you know, a chrome one or something. And the other thing to note, you'll see in this picture, he's indeed wearing a neck brace. Oh, wow. What's up with that? Sammy has dubbed the tour. He kept calling it the ambulance tour. Because Eddie had hip problems and was limping around with his hip from all the years of knee slides and all that. And so Alex was, apparently the story goes is, and it could have been a combination of things. It was part, could have been a water skiing accident. I've also heard that it like he herniated a disc when he picked up his, you know, his young son and lifted him up over his head and did something to his neck or I don't know, but he had to wear a neck brace through the tour.   But that's really probably not true because when you see them on the 98 tour when they had Gary Chiron in the band, he still wearing a neck brace. So I can't imagine it was all that comfortable. Poor guy. Yeah, it was. No, it must be terrible. Yeah, it looks, it doesn't look all that comfortable to wear a neck brace. The other thing to note at this period too, which is kind of cool is he, they were using a video screen, which is sort of new technology. They're using a video screen back there. He pre-recorded himself playing like a Latin percussion solo. So they call it like it was Latin brother or something.  And so at the end of his solo, and it's in this Toronto video, if you get a chance to see it, or he basically like, you know, you hear the click, the cowbell go off and he solos basically with himself. And so it's pretty neat. And so it's kind of neat to see it up on the video screen. It's a real creative little thing he did. And it was nice to see that he was always sort of changing up his, you know, trying, he probably got tired of, you know, I can't do the Simmons pad thing anymore. So he came up with this as an alternative. And so he was doing these little solos. The other thing to note too, which is a real kind of a big deal is that his, I think he was having a lot of problems with his hearing and stuff. And for this tour, there was a, there's an article out there somewhere. There was a husband and wife that actually invented for Alex, the basically like the modern in-ear system as we know of. So like, I'm wearing my in-ears now to do this interview. And I think, you know, you'll notice there's no giant cabs next to Alex anymore, no guitars blaring in his face. But I think he was literally probably, if not the first, one of the first people to use, like professionally use in-ear monitors. And it was built out of mostly necessity. Like I think, I thought I'd read somewhere, if that had not, invention did not come about, there's a chance that he may have had to just sort of stop touring because it was just, you know, the levels and the volume. And so, you know, at this point now, when you think of like less monitors on stage and internal microphones, the sound probably was a lot easier to control versus like the early days when you know, when you have, you know, 40 drums on stage and Eddie's cabs. Everything's mic'd. Yeah. So, you know, the sound is actually quite good from these tours. Very cool. So, as we move away from balance era, Sammy, you know, left the band, there's, you know, all kinds of stuff on that that anyone could see. There was a brief little point where they, but everybody thought David the Rob is coming back. That's a whole another, you know, debacle, but they ended up getting Gary Chiron in the band from Extreme. And Alex, they recorded the album and all that, which is a very strange thing because I, you know, it's a very disjointed album. Eddie did a lot of the stuff himself, including some of the drum overdobs. Alex was going through some, I think a rough period. I think he got divorced around this period. And so, he just wasn't, is involved in the album in previous. I think Eddie did a lot of the bass on this album. I mean, it's a very strange album. It was Eddie's, I think his concept and I think it just didn't really go overall that well. Gary Chiron is a great singer. He seems like a great guy, but he just wasn't the right fit for Van Halen. But Alex got this new kit for the tour and it's a yellow classic. I think these are classic maples. I think at this time, classic maples were out. So, he was using this classic maple set. And again, I want to say that John Douglas probably did the paint job on this. I don't think he was the tech. Which is quite yet. Really cool. It's very cohesive with, it kind of goes to like, you know, kits Neil would have or something where like the bass drum head matches the paint of the kit and the color of everything. It's, I think it's a neat looking kit. It is a neat looking kit. And I think, and I just said like, I mean, maybe John Douglas was kind of like, I don't know if there was maybe two techs at the time. I don't know if this was the year he first came to work with Alex full time, but he was in the fold for sure. And I believe he did all the painting on this. And the thing, what I understand is I believe it's supposed to read Van Halen III in Sanskrit. I'm not really sure. It is something cool. It looked kind of cool. And he went back to like more like the eight by 10, eight by 12, 16, 18, and then like 24 inch bass drums. And super sensitive. Looks like we're back. Yeah. So it looks like he went back to a Ludwig, I believe it's a, like a bronze hammered super sensitive.  And this was a completely different snare. I've seen him playing the Tamas. I saw him under all of his Tama phases. And he went back to this, you know, a metal snare drum. It's not a wood anymore. And it sounded like Alex.  And so, and so he did, so he did that. And I actually, I saw like this, a couple of shows on this tour. And again, when I was at a huge dinner, Gary, it just, one thing that struck me completely was just how amazing Michael, Anthony, Edward and Alex were together. Like they just were so tight as a unit. And so it was really cool to see that. But, you know, I think he had some congas on this kid as well. Let me see if I have another picture of it. Yeah, I can see him on one of them looks like off to his left. And there's, and there's also like, you know, he's got the fan attached to the kit. So he's got something, some cooling power. Yeah, fan off the side. And you can see, you know, the standard drum a little more clearly in this. And it looks like he has like 42 strands snares on it. I mean, you can kind of see in the bottom there. And so the other thing that happened actually on this tour early on, and this is the testament to Alex as well, is that I guess they were playing when they first started the tour they played in Europe. And they were playing in some really old theater doing soundcheck.  And it actually like landed and whacked Alex's arm. I forget which arm it was left arm or something. But it was, you know, it was like cinder block that fell down. It's lucky it didn't actually like smash the care part or hit Allison the head or. Yeah. But I think it's okay. Well, I think, you know, it's sort of like messed up his arm. Like they basically had to postpone all the early shows of the European, you know, so Alex could sort of like, I think his tendons and stuff was a little screwed up. And they, so, so basically they had a little bit of a break before the tour started. And it was funny because I saw a comment from Eddie where when they got back to you know, when the first show happened, after all that, it was, I think it was one in the States. Eddie was saying that like, you know, he was struggling because he was like, you know, we had a break and I hadn't played for a while.   I mean, in the photo we're looking at, he's got a neck brace on still.   So, so yeah, so that was the Van Hill and three tour. And sadly, Van Hill and three just did not do anywhere near what they expected it. You know, Eddie hoped it would do.  So we, we go into sort of a dark period where like, you know, you just don't hear anything for Van Hill and for a while. And then around 2004, they reunited with Sammy Hagar.  And without getting into the drama too much, I mean, it was just not the greatest time for Eddie. He was really in bad shape. He was going through some health issues and some other things. And he probably shouldn't have been on tour, but he was in pretty rough shape. I saw a couple of shows at the center. I mean, it was really kind of sad because the original first show I saw there in 86 at the center was just so amazing. And to see, you know, the shape he was in in these 2004 shows was not great.  And he got another kit for the, for this tour. And so at this time, by this time, John Douglas was really his tech. And I think John did the dragons. You know, it was a dragon motif going around the kit.  Then he's got like, you know, back to like 12, 8 by 12, 9 by 13, 16, 18. He's got some pork pie tube drums is what I read they were called. Oh, cool. And they have dogs. So he's, that's awesome. Yeah, they have dog's pads installed in them so he could trigger sounds and stuff. Okay. Something looks like there's etched, like dragons etched on them or a sticker or something. And he's got the like, what looks like coils, like springs going up, going on the bass drum spurs. So he's getting back to the like funky stuff on his drum set. The dragons were likely either etched or painted because John Douglas is a, is a crazy, crazy artist that can paint anything. He did all those easy top kits. He's done, you know, the Aerosmith kits, a lot of kits.  It's fairly ordinary finish. I think it was later on, you know, when John Douglas really got Alice to like say, you know, okay, I trust this guy, let's, you know, let him do his thing and, and really get created. I think this was just a very, very tip of the iceberg for John as far as getting creative on Alice's kits. And I, you know, they say, the Dawes pads and those things, but I saw these shows. I don't ever remember Alex ever hitting those things. I mean, maybe he did, but I mean, he's got quite a few of those things. There's at least like eight of them around there.  We're trying to. Yeah. I like the wood grain looking base drum head with this kit. Yes. Which is super cool. There's something, I've seen other people do that. Maybe Alex was the first, but like, it just kind of makes the whole thing look like this, like cohesive piece. Nice little shot here, if you can see your, and the snare drum. Iron Cobras. Yeah. And you can see the snare drum too. It's like a black beauty, but it has the dragons etched in it. I believe Alex gave that snare drum to Todd Trent, who was, as I mentioned, was the artist relations guy. Like I know Todd had it in his office for a while.  Great. And Todd was a good, you know, worked with him since, you know, 86 at least, and they were good friends. And, but you can also see, when you look at Alex's sticks too, like they're resting on a 16 inch floor tom, and they, they're longer than the, like he was just a really long sticks at this point. They're like two inches longer. And then throne looks cool. I wonder if that was, because if he was linked up with Bill from Pork Pie, I wonder if he was using a Pork Pie throne at that point, because that looks very plush and comfy. And then also the far left. Yep. Third base drum, but it's over, it's almost in the first, it's like, wait, wait, wait, far left. That has like a pedal on it.  You know, I mean, I saw the, I saw two shows on this tour. I don't really recall him doing, maybe he did it in his solo and I just don't remember, but he's also got a three by 13 piccolo snare drum in there. And like, I just don't, I don't remember him really doing much with that stuff. You know, it was really just him playing the main kit, but you know, maybe it was there just for, for spur of the moment things. Like, I don't know. I mean, you could see how there's Dawes pass on either side of him. And I mean, that would have been a lot of stuff to trigger, but I don't remember like what he, what he was, you know, I just don't remember him triggering a lot. They were mostly a live band for the, for the most part. He might have triggered maybe when he did his solo and he had to trigger the little sequence at the end or maybe he used that to sort of, you know, get that going. But you can see the set list on the floor and you can see like he was a lot of 2002s up there. You can see he's using a clear heads and some pin, pinstripes at the bottom, you know, and again, everything still sounded like Alex. But as my comment before, when he was playing like the 24 inch bass drums and like the eight by 10, eight by 12, I always kind of felt that they cut through an arena a little better. Like, when you see it, when I saw him in the center playing this kit, it just, you know, it kind of gets a little bit lost because you got 26s that move a lot of air and, you know, 12, 13s, you know, they're just, they're big drums. It looks like we moved away from the internal mics. Like it looks like he's back to having mics on top on all of them. Yeah. And I think you're, I think you're right. He moved away from, away from that. And it was a, you know, I don't know. I don't know what the reasonings were. Yeah. But I like this kit. I think it's cool.  It's a very nice, you know, get the job done kit. And then the hi-hat has that kind of contraption, which connects to the second bass drum to get it close enough with the no leg hi-hat mounted to the bass drum, which, you know, talk about saving your hips from being spread. So, you know, an extra foot. Well, you know, I probably should have made a picture where I abed this shot versus the one I showed you from like Van Halen II, where the hi-hat looks like it's a mile away and there's a third tom crammed in there. Like it, that still blows my mind. Like, like this is a much more ergonomical setup. And I think as Alex aged and he got, you know, more into the technical side of playing drums, it was pretty clear that, you know, he, he wanted to set things up more ergonomically and more efficient, especially if, you know, he wore a neck brace for the last three years. You know, you don't want to be doing any extra movement outside of the, you know, for no real reason. You know, so, you know, that, that pretty much sums up the 2004 tour. I think he's still, I think he's still playing a 40 inch gong at this point.  So, you know, they did that tour. Unfortunately, it just, it didn't end on the best note. You know, as I mentioned, Eddie was having some rough years. And so fast forward to about 2006, 2007, Eddie started jamming with his son Wolfgang. And it was quickly apparent even at young age at 15 that Wolfgang had the goods to be able to play bass. And, and so basically Alex and Eddie and Wolfgang would just, you know, basically after Wolfgang got out of school, they would rehearse and play these tunes till they got to the point where they were like, I think we actually have something here. And they were just, I think they were just fooling around until it was decided that, you know, we're actually got something pretty good going here. The kid, the kid's got some talent and he can play and, and he can sing their backgrounds. And I think at the time Wolfgang may have even just been, you know, singing guide vocals for them. And so it was actually Wolfgang's idea. And he said, you know, why don't we call David Leroth and get him to come back.  Like basically, I don't think Eddie, you know, had any real desire to call him. And he used to say to Wolfgang, you call him. And so the funny story goes is that Wolfgang called him and basically left a voice mail and said, hi, this is Wolfgang, you know, we've been jamming and we want to know if you want to come up and jam with us, you know, and, and so get back in David Leroth, of course, called back and he got Eddie.  He goes, I didn't call you. And he goes, well, I got a message from Wolfgang. And he goes, well, then why are you calling me? You know, that's fine. It was one of those kind of deals. I don't know. Well, the Van Halen decided they're going to take, bring Dave back and they're going to go on a tour and they didn't make an album or anything. They just decided to go or like out on a, I hate to call it a nostalgia tour, but I guess that's what it is. But, and at this point, I think, you know, Dave seemed like he had worked a bit and got his voice in good shape. And, and so they went out and, and John Douglas was, I guess, you know, still Alex's tack and he really went to town on this kid. I think Alex started to like loosen the reins and I don't know if that was the case, but he let John Douglas get real creative. And out of the kits that Alex used like later in his career, this is definitely my favorite. I, I love this kid. I think it really came out great. And as we've talked before, I love sparkles and wacky finishes and stuff in that. Not that the natural maple is cool too, but so the kit John came up with looks like this and which is incredible. I mean, the bass drums. So explain for people just listening, the overlapping of the bass drum. Yeah.   But what he did was he ended up taking smaller sized bass drums and like, I think they may have been 22s and the, he cut them like literally into the side of the shelf. So he literally like, they're like fused together, but they sort of like bubble out from the side of this, the set. And it just, it's such a cool look. Like it's really cool. But again, how the hell did they put that in a case? You know, like, yeah, but they, you know, clearly they figured it out. And then it's got this really cool rack system around it. We've, you know, like sort of piston looking things. And like John Douglas was all about like making, you know, aesthetically making things look really unique and different. And then the finish on here, I believe, I could be wrong, but I'm going to guess, and I think it's a painted finish, but it looks like a teal sparkle. So it's like almost like a cross between green and blue, but it's, it's sort of, and sort of has like a teal look to it because the, the base room hoops are all also matching. They have the same sparkle, but it's a really cool kid. 2002 is around it.  But you'll also see there's a base drum way over to on this picture to the right. It's on, you know, his Alex's right side. That base drum, believe it or not, is actually a mini fridge.  And that's crazy. I've never heard of anything like that. And that, you know, again, it's probably something John Douglas came up with because he was that kind of guy who was super creative and came up with all kinds of interesting things. So a couple more shots at this kid.  And then, you know, of course, John tricked out this side base room with these like chrome things that stick out of the flaps that stick out of it. I mean, it's just super cool. John's a super creative guy, and he really, really knows how to make stuff really pop. Yeah, for the stage. So I really enjoyed this kid. I thought it was a really cool idea. And then he actually like, must have done another set of heads, because they actually, some of the shots, they say 08 on them instead of 07.  So it's not like it's a graphic they came up with, like, I'm pretty sure he hand paints that. Now, the other thing to note around this time period, which I thought was a little odd, is that Alex came out with his first signature snare drum, and it was basically a Ludwig version of the Rosewood Tama. It was designed to sort of, you know, I don't know, just like, this is, you know, the ad for it. But if you know, like in even in this picture, like Alex is playing a classic maple matching snare to the kit. So I have never actually seen one picture of Alex playing this drum. I could never, his signature, never went on tour. It never, I could just, I've heard that he's tried it in the studio and stuff, but like, there's a very little studio output from Van Halen at this point in their career. And it just, it's just kind of bizarre to me. Like it just, it's like he didn't tour with it. At least I didn't see it. I mean, maybe he pulled it out in the later part of the tour. But far as I know, he was mostly playing that classic maple snare. But these are very, very hard to find and very rare now, because this is from about 2007, 2008. And, and of course they got limited edition and they got all bought up very quickly. And now they're actually worth quite a bit of money if you can even find one. Yeah, I bet. You only get the Van Halen logo with his little, the signature in there. And then the inside of the drum, of course, you can see how it's all rosewood through and through. And it's got his signed number blank of, you know, nine of 100 is this picture. But yeah. So there's just not a lot of them floating around out there. So that takes care of 2007. So at this point, Dave was technically officially back in the band. Well, apparently probably Wolfgang's idea, he was a catalyst for a lot of things going on with that band. And I guess they decided to put an album out, which was at this career, like a lot of bands 2012, they weren't really putting a lot of albums out at this point.  And decided to record some of the songs on there and add a couple of new ones. And David Lee Ross sort of reworked up some of his lyrics. And so they put an album out called A Different Kind of Truth. And it was the first, you know, new Van Halen album since the Van Halen three album from 98. And aside from a couple of songs they did with Sammy, a couple of 2004 songs, this was the first full album. And so when they've completed the album, they actually went to New York City. And Dave, David Lee Ross, uncle was an uncle manny that owned Cafe Wa, which is the famous New York City Cafe. And so they did a one off show at Cafe Wa, like a very small room, like, you know, nowhere close to what Van Halen's used to playing. And Alex brought along this little four piece kit, which is, if I were to guess, I'm wondering if it's pieces of the kit he had in 2004. But I'm not 100% sure.  Even smaller than the, you know, the 1991 set. And it was just a one off show. And so he played this kit for this one off show. But when they went on the 2012 tour, once again, John Douglas did his magic and this is what they came up with for a kit. So they got this another behemoth of a kit with a big rack. It had this custom finish on it, which was much like, I don't know if they would call it, have to do with like car racing or motors or Alex is a big Porsche guy. And, you know, he's got another son that's looks just like him. And he's younger, you know, his youngest son is really into car racing and does some real high end car racing stuff. And so Alex is a big love of Porsche and Porsches and all that stuff. So I'm sure the kit, you know, has some flares to it that sort of, you know, resemble like auto racing to some degree. Beautiful kit, kind of a, I don't want to say prism look, but finish, it has that kind of metal like it catches the light really well. Yeah, and you can see he's got like gold hardware or copper hardware. I'm trying to think if it's gold or brass hardware, I guess it is. And then you can see where John basically like has like saw he has like a 16 by 26. And I think there's a 14 by 26 like just attached at the front. And you can kind of see where he attached it by using a like a Ludwig mount. There's a standard, you know, plain old regular, you know, Ludwig mount and they they just take a bar and they sort of connect the two drums together to hold it up. And then he's flanked off the sides with I think they're a little 16 by 20s on the side. I think that's what those are. Beautiful. Yeah, it's a cool looking kit. And apparently that kid is now owned by David Francioni by a modern drummer has it. Yeah, in the hall of fame or whatever. I've seen kits like pictures and videos of that. And there's some videos you just put out with a couple of J. Weinberg, J. Weinberg by Portnoy. And you can see like later on, I don't know if there's a John Douglas thing, they made the outer kits look like beer taps. So you can see they put they have all duels on them and stuff because Alex, you know, wasn't drinking and it just, you know, it just goes with the whole, you know, you get David the Rock back in the band, they're trying to recapture a little bit of that. This is the other thing I find funny. And I see this first in one of these ads for Ludwig. So it says making history with Ludwig since 1974. So there are several times when you'll see it in the next kit, the next next kit, where they claim, you know, they've listed Alex with Ludwig since 1975. And then, you know, like it's like he wasn't an official endorsement until 83. But as we talked about way early on, he got his first Ludwig kit around 1970. So it's like the numbers are like, I don't understand where they're coming up with 1974 is the year that Michael Anthony joined the band. But when they talk about 75 to 2015, like there's nothing significant from 1975, other than the fact that, you know, I think that's the year Alex got his first six and a half by 14 super sensitive. So I'm just, I wonder where they come up with these numbers sometimes. This next kit for 2015, it's the very last tour Van Nelen ever did. It's another kit very similar to the previous kit. This one has like the, you know, Alex, like the chrome finish. And then he's got copper copper hardware on this. And he's actually using a, what at the time they were calling it a prototype. So it's a six and a half by 14 regular superphonic snare drum. But apparently it had gotten used for quite a bit.  So John Douglas took the snare drum, brought it back to his shop, and used a metal grinder and grind it off the finish. And so the snare drum eventually became the snare drum, which was the Alex's next, you know, next signature snare drum. So the other thing to note, which is kind of funny, it didn't happen all the time. You can see Alex is using like a DW hi-hat stand, but he's using a Ludwig Atlas pedals for the bass drum, but he's using a double pedal for the bass drums. And some people have made comments of like, why the heck would you know? And I have heard that it had some, sometimes it was easier for the sound man to only deal with making one bass drum. But there are also shots. I get that. I've seen shots of him with the actual two bass drum pedals. So it probably depended on which venue they were playing at. Yeah, I see both. And it's got that like hanging muffler above from the top that's coming down. What's the story with that? Is that just muffling? I'm sure it's just, you know, the 26s are big. I'm sure it's just to control some of the 26s a little bit. You can see he's playing the double pedal here again, but he does actually play two pedals. So he will do that.  Like they, it's funny, they call them Reverend Al. So he's, because he's an ordained minister.   And you can see in this picture, he's got the two, two pedals on there. So it really depended on where he was playing, whether or not he used the double pedal or not. And whatever. No difference, I guess, of sound going out to the audience. Yeah. And then 2002s, you know, mics above. But the thing to note on this kit is that when they put badges on this kit, they, the badges were like Van Halen badges. Like they basically have the VH logo on them. And then they would, they would put like on it was really weird. It would say like 75 to 2015. So again, I was kind of like, well, where are they getting this, you know, like there's a special key right here, 75 to 17. You know, like, which again is weird because the tour ended in 2015 and like they've never, they never toured again. Like Alex, I mean, as far as, you know, I'm sure he's played a kit, but like there has never been any public pictures or audio recordings of Alex playing a kit past the last show they did at the Hollywood Bowl that I know of. And so it's just weird where they're getting the numbers from sometimes. This is the snare drum. So this is an ad for the snare drum and it came with a special case and AVH badge on it. The picture in the background, I believe was taken by Alex's youngest son Malcolm. So he's, you know, both of the sons look like they're very adept at photography. The older son, Eric, I've seen some of his photos and he does a fantastic job. And this snare had to be expensive. And so yeah. So I think at the time when those snares came out, they were probably between $2,000, $2,500 and now like, you know, you can't find them anywhere and people sell them online for six grand or so. I mean, it's crazy. And so there's a, you know, a couple of good shots of it.  So it really started life as a, is a basically a well, well used, worn superphonic that, that basically, I think it was just one of those things where John was like, hey, screw it, let's take a grinder to it and see what that does. They don't like, that sticks with the theme of Van Halen of like, eh, whatever, it's just gear. Let's, let's play with it. Yeah, there's this cool, cool badge. Love it. Yeah. And so the last couple of things that you'll see like on some of the heads, they got Van Halen logos on the Remo heads. And then you'll see, I got this shot from somewhere. It's probably somebody's stick collection.  The thing with Regal Tip, I mean, I played them for years and I, and I loved them, but, but my hands are always dry. So I like a lack or finish. And that's just, you know, so, but, but Alex's sticks is we're unfinished. So like, you know, if you pick up a pair of his, I got them somewhere and like, they're really long and they're unfinished. Like it would be so uncomfortably and unbalanced for me to try and play those things. Like it's weird. Yeah. And the last thing I will mention, and it's been talked about with John Douglas and, you know, he, and obviously people can get close, but there have been claims where people have always tried to get the Alex Van Halen snare sound. And John Douglas says, you know, people do this, people do that.  I mean, it's true. I mean, you really kind of have to be Alex, but, but there are people that have gotten super close to it and have gotten really, really close. But I've seen Alex on a number of different snare drums and they always sounds like Alex. Yeah. That's the Tony Williams thing too. It's like, they're searching for that Tony Williams cymbals, the ride sound. And it's like, well, you're, you can get 99% or eight, you can get 90% there, but you're not Tony Williams. Same with Alex and his snares. And that's an excellent point you bring up too, because when it comes to like cymbals, like I've heard, you know, you could have the same guy play the same ride cymbal, but like it's all in the touch. Like Tony Williams probably made the right ride cymbal just come alive. You know, and it's the way it is, you know, some people just, it is, but that's pretty much Alex. And again, thanks to Alex for all the years of inspiration. Sadly, Eddie passed away in October of 2020. And I don't think you'll ever gonna see him out again. In my opinion, I would love to, but I just, you know, I mean, he did, he did his, he's done, he's done quite a service to the drum community. Very few drummers are as like beloved as Alex van Halen. So I really, I'm sure people have enjoyed this. I would be curious per usual with these gear episodes. I think it's always cool that people share their stories, like you did of seeing Alex van Halen, van Halen in general live and just maybe what kit you saw live, what your experience was, how it sounded, did you see two nights in a row like Kurt and one night was better than the other? We really, I love reading that stuff. And I know Kurt would enjoy hearing it in the comments as well. And per usual, if there's anything we missed, let us know, you know. Yeah, definitely. I mean, there's a lot of stuff to cover in these episodes. And people are more than welcome to comment and say, you know, hey, that's not right. He did, he had this or had that. I mean, it's just, it's, there's a lot. Yeah. You know, and there are probably going to be people that actually have worked with him. I've, you know, as much as I love Alex and all these years, I've never met him. I've never walked, got sat behind one of his sets. I mean, it's always been from a fan perspective from afar. Yeah. Yeah. For most people. But yeah, Kurt, I appreciate you giving so much time to the podcast. I mean, you've been on multiple episodes now.  Absolutely. And I'm sure we'll do something again down the road. But so really, thank you very much to, first off, everyone for watching this. If you've gotten through both episodes per usual, leave a comment and let us know.   But to you, Kurt, thank you very much for taking so much time. You've prepared hundreds of photos, which people have enjoyed looking at. Thank you very much for your time until the next time we do the next, you know, whatever episode it is. But I appreciate you taking your time and spending it with me on this Saturday morning. So thank you, Kurt. All right. I appreciate it. Thank you.