Well, hello everybody. Sorry for that slight delay as I said on Twitter. This was Actually a Monday masquerading as a Tuesday at least in the US with Memorial Day yesterday But today this is the you know cube by example insider show. I'm Langdon White. It's been a while I'm a faculty member over at Boston University and I host this show And we talked to insiders in the Kubernetes community. That's all that's was a lot to say fast and Try to give you some insights about what's going on in that community so that You can kind of get a sense of what will be landing soon in the Kubernetes world Because we find that with the open source projects in particular It's very helpful if we can get a sense of what people are doing Versus what they're thinking they're going to do So that that gives a better sense of what might be happening soon So I'd like to welcome my co-host today Josh Burkus and if you want to quickly introduce yourself That would be great Howdy everybody. I'm Josh Burkus. I work in the red hat open source practice office Where I support Kubernetes and other cloud-native projects And so I'm a little familiar with today's guests So let's actually have them introduce themselves Ramon you want to go first? Hey, everyone. I'm Ramon Ramanathan here product manager for the migration toolkit for applications in red hat and also a maintainer within the conveyor community John Hey, John Matthews based out of Raleigh, North Carolina Red Hatter. I Hand a lot of engineering management things for conveyor Okay, and Savita Hey everyone, my name is Savita Raghunathan and I am a senior software engineer at Red Hat and I am one of the conveyor maintenance And I also contribute to Kubernetes and I'm happy to be here as a guest again Yes, Savita kind of goes back and forth depends on you know, sometimes she's a guest sometimes she's a host the other one that is that keeps throwing me especially in the lead up to this Show is John Matthews is also the name of the department head of my computer science program when I was in college And so it's I keep seeing it and saying wait what? So so it's kind of random But can you tell us a little bit? You know just for kind of some context. What is conveyor exactly? I Guess I can take this one. Well conveyor is a toolkit Community it got started as a community. It was an umbrella community in which we wanted to focus on helping Organizations with the onboarding of applications to Kubernetes. So helping them Not only bring their legacy traditional workloads into Kubernetes, but also help them Leverage the capabilities of Kubernetes as a as a platform. That's the elevator pitch for for conveyor, right, right? yeah, so Conveyor is actually pretty well covered by keep by example. There's actually a learning path And we'll probably throw the link in the chat at some point soon But that you know, there's a lot of kind of material there but I guess one of the things that I Kind of like to try to understand is like, okay What what does that mean? Like so I have you know, you know I've kind of recently installed Kubernetes, you know or something right and I have now this roadmap that some consulting organization put together for me Speaking as a former person who used to do that That has you know a product roadmap and it's all getting magically move over to You know Kubernetes and be everything will be perfect and hunky dory But so so what do you like? What does it mean to try to migrate those applications? Is it I presume it's not a five-second deal? Definitely not so we're not trying to do magic here at least magic doesn't exist at least just yet I mean we have AI in the horizon We'll see in some years, but right now. I don't think there is any any magic Well, what we're trying to do with conveyor is to write provide as many insights for these Architects that are leading this type of migration engagements my migration initiatives Given them the uns insights to make informed decisions. So they have something something tangible In which they can base their their their decisions and on the other hand for the developers that are performing the changes in the in the source code that are Adapting those applications to run on the new platform provide some Guidance and some degree of automation as well We're not currently Targeting or focusing on full automation because I don't think something like that exists just yet It's just about providing these insights for the lead practitioners for the lead architects that are steering the migration initiative And then for the ones performing the changes automation and guidance And so how does one decide about like You know like I think one of the fundamental Challenges or you know problems or whatever you want to call it with kind of migrating into Kubernetes is that you know The architecture of an application that kind of lives in a containerized world versus the architecture an application that lives on You know a big iron BM How do like how do we know what to do is that? You know do we need to re-architect the application? Do we need to move it? Do we just kind of port it somehow? What's the like what do we know to do there? Yeah, the idea that we have or the value that we provide with the with the talking with the tooling that we have is that We are able to find anti patterns for containerization in the in the application So we provide very precise data of what will be required for the application to run on Containers and then it's up for the organization for these architects to to you know decide whether they want to re-architect for whatever business Reason or if they want to just port these application To the cloud with with the less amount of changes Required what we're trying to do is you know empower these individuals to make these informed decisions from actual data Coming from the applications we find the anti patterns and it's up to Up to you to decide whether it's worth to re-architect the whole thing Or if you would prefer to just keep it as it is and then focus your resources and your budgeting on on something else So so what are what are some reasons? What what are some of these anti patterns? What are some reasons why somebody? Yeah For example one big thing is configuration management, you know application lifecycle management in general is that it's a You know very interesting topic to take into account when you're containerizing and bringing applications into Kubernetes especially So trying to find anti patterns in configuration management like loading configuration files from the file system all that type of stuff that needs to be Taking into account when you're container containerizing the application when you are bringing it to Kubernetes with the you know the fact or default configuration model that applications will have in Kubernetes with a Config map secrets just having that that information. Maybe there are ways of somehow Fixing this thing or or or you know having a practical solution for this without that many changes Or maybe that's changing something like that will have a huge impact on the application architecture It's just about surfacing all these things for you to make these decisions So you're saying that that like one of the anti patterns is people have stuff set up with Life cycle management with configuration with a puppet, right? And and puppet is deploying applications and changing them in place. What's the problem there? I know the problem would be that for example old-school applications that have application configuration invaded within the application itself or an An old pattern for enterprise architects and sorry enterprise architectures enterprise applications of having application servers deployed in multiple Hosts and then all of them accessing a common NFS with all the configuration files Those things will need to be tweaked somehow for the application to run properly within containers Other things will be for example things like clustering. Maybe your application has some custom clustering Mechanism maybe on the cache level or something like that like using multicast or anything like that that is not Compatible with with with Kubernetes Those are the things there are the things that you would need to take into account when bringing those applications Into into containers also things like my applications is right is writing on the file system because if it used that file System as a means to connect to integrate with other applications across a you know business pipeline or or of some nature That type of stuff. What is that what we try to detect alongside some other? modernization concerns like up, you know upgrading from a certain Observer to another one that is more suitable for the cloud We also cover that that thing because the analysis engine that we use has some sort of tradition on that space as well And we have inherited that with the conveyor project as well Okay, so stuff like for that matter stuff like using a Unix socket is obviously for example for example Yeah, it's the it's funny like the you know We have all these kind of like relatively old-school ways of doing you know kind of various workarounds You know that you can manage inside like a virtual machine And then you you move it into any kind of containerized environment and all sorts of stuff starts falling apart And what I find it really similar to in the old days when there was a lot of migrations kind of to the cloud Right, and there was a lot of security concerns right of you know How do we migrate for our data center to the to the cloud or whatever and they were worried about open? Like network access right and what I was most of the time when I found as a consultant was that oh Hey, by the way once you moved it to the cloud lots of stuff broke because it was so much more secure Then your data center which had 5,000 open ports because people had punched ports through you know For some sort of communication protocol over the years and it had gotten lost and it just kind of kept happening, right? So yeah, I find I find a lot of the when you're looking at these migrations a lot of the times people don't even realize That they're using some of those features that you know are not actually all that secure even on a virtual machine, right? And you know and you kind of find these things when you're trying to migrate well also some practices change right because True if you're assuming all of your applications are going to live on the same physical machine then sharing information via configuration files and Unix actually a more secure approach, right? If only is a physical machine, right? Right. It's just the VMs though. It starts getting messy, right? Yeah, well, no as soon as you move into cloud period, right? You suddenly can't do that anymore You have to find a new way to secure everything right, yeah, right so I want to actually change tax a little bit which is Y'all recently announced Version 0.1 of conveyor And and I wanted to ask What's in version 0.1? You you seem to be starting with an unambitiously low number for this release And so I wanted to one see if you could talk a little bit about that Mm-hmm. I could talk a little bit about some of the context some of it was we're trying to We're trying to set the right precedent Where we don't come out too aggressive have a 1.0 and then all of a sudden we realize in six months The API has had the drastically changed So a lot of this is going out where as Ramon was mentioning we inherited Some technologies bound for several years a project called wind up it does some job analysis and other pieces And we've had a lot of things kind of baked But when it comes down to the platform in the API's We didn't feel confident enough that they weren't going to change at all So we really wanted to come out with a 0.1 So we had some flexibility on the API surface That's essentially what we're doing now as especially we start looking into future integrations There's some work that's going on where IBM research has a lot of cool things that we're looking to leverage and bring in And we're not sure what's the right API surface to do that with So the 0.1 is kind of significant to the community that there's stuff here with APIs. We're still trying to figure out the right surface So this is Do we have new folks from IBM involved in the project now? There's a few efforts that have been going on for probably about two years with IBM research doing the difference Some of it's working on the AI side someone's working to move to cube So it's working a test generation some pieces of taking a monolith and trying to break that out And then use AI to find different pieces a lot of experiments that are going to go into what we now call conveyor ecosystem So there's the conveyor itself which is the platform and then there's a conveyor ecosystem Where it's a lot of experiments that are going through that as they mature will get plugged back into the platform Yeah, I thought I kind of noticed today I don't think I'd seen it before that IBM research is actually a sponsor of the project like directly Which was kind of a interesting, you know to try to use kind of those AI techniques to Approach it I think that kind of leads us a little bit into kind of a little bit the structure of conveyor Right is that it's sort of kind of I'm gonna kind of put this loosely But it's sort of kind of like a an overall application, right? Which then has a bunch of plug-ins that kind of do all the the various types of work Is that an accurate or is that a fair assessment or do you refer to it that way? I know it's I know it's a bunch of different tools and then one kind of you know one to rule them all In case you had a one ring for example Is that makes sense or can you elaborate on it? I? See I Think I can I can do this one so I would say the core of the user experience is what we call the the the hub the conveyor hub and the hub mainly consists on a you know on a Application portfolio centric approach so basically everything emanates from the From the application portfolio for what we call the application inventory and then what we have is a series of atoms that provide additional value and Basically are looking into surfacing information about the application portfolio or maybe enhancing the application portfolio in some way So right now for example, we have the analysis atom that will be able to analyze your application source code and binaries and provide Reports on on what needs to be done and also surface information about the technology stack of each application We have the assessment module that will give you an high-level Overview of all the different concerns that need to be taken into account when you are trying to containerize to modernize your your application It's a questionnaire driven assessment and then we're working on new atoms for the future things like migration waves management things like Test generation. I think John already mentioned that it's it's just keeping everything fully focused on the application Inventory because that's what we are targeting here we're talking targeting and we're working with an application inventory and then Have different blockable pieces that either surface information about that or perform a You know a certain action against the application inventor. I catch it. Yeah, that makes sense So we actually had a question for the audience What kind of you know, what who are you seeing kind of contributing to the project or being involved in the project? That are not IBM and Red Hat like where what other communities are you seeing getting involved? So I thought you want to take this one. Oh sure. Yeah, so we are seeing a lot of engagement from people calling up the project and we recently add few participants to join our community meetings. It's not like as a Company like we are seeing individuals from various companies and consultancies and we also have someone trying to create a customization to the existing assessment module right now and I think they would be presenting in one of the community meetings soon So we are seeing engagement and we are hoping that There are some collaborations that's happening with other companies still Regarding the contribution of Language analyzer. So our language analyzer is a plug-in the new one that we are developing is a plug-in So you can bring in your own languages and plug into the analyzer that we have and that will provide you support for the language If you're plugging into for example, if you have a Dothnit or a Python whatever and if that has a language over and that can be plugged into our analyzer engine and that gives you All the details that you are like and it is also powered through rules So you need to have some rules for that engine to work really well So we are seeing engagement for all those things from other places other companies for example I know I am just gonna call out on Ramon and just say that I know he was talking with some folks in Microsoft regarding that Sorry, I'm just throwing you into the bus right now And Yeah Well, the thing is that yeah, Microsoft has been contributing to the rules side of things in the analyzer So they've been contributing to to these engine that we you know the former engine that the one that we inherited They have been contributing rules for for For Azure several Azure flavors We would love to have more involvement on their side, but we're just working on on that. We are We are shooting at everyone so that the one thing to just to clarify Conveyor has become a CNCF sandbox project. It's definitely not a marketing gimmick from Red Hat and IBM We want this thing to become an a true open source community And what we're trying to do is engage all vendors GSIs and organizations out there We're still a young project. I mean, we we we became sandbox. I think In October or something like that we announced that and maybe we got the certification before that But we were able to announce that in October November. So it's taking time before There were some other Benders that were saying hey this thing you are doing guys. He's a very interesting but since it's still your thing We are kind of frenemies here So we will better, you know, we will prefer to wait until this thing is owned by the CNCF So it becomes, you know, something community driven and we ensure that it's not a red hat thing It I can assure you it isn't Anymore and that we're trying to do is basically define the standards for Kubernetes adoption and I want to add a little bit more to what Ramon said and I When I used to be a platform engineer and there was no one project that actually helps. So I did a lot of Java modernization. I help people do the Java modernization and there was no easy way either you rewrite the application the developers always busy So this time at KubeCon, right? KubeCon and EU at Amsterdam. We had a kiosk for conveyor. Thanks to CNCF for having us there. So There is a project for the end where all the CNCF projects get to have a kiosk and they can talk about the project. This time we did Have a kiosk and we were able to spread awareness about the project and there were so many folks who are actually interested in what we are doing right now They are like they are in need of that and they're like, oh my god. We just Come to know like they are like, oh, this is conveyor This is a new project and every project around that area has something to do with the infrastructure, right? Like app definition, application builder, like infrastructure management, something of that kind and they were like, oh Tell me about your project. We are seeing your demo that is going through the Loop and tell us more about it So it was really cool to see like so many people are going through this moment of where they have the projects applications and they want to modernize it so It was really nice to see that engagement from folks at KubeCon. So we are hoping that the next time we would have like more and more things and engagement and Create more awareness and more people contribute to the project. I Actually remember when when you all were applying to the CNCF. There was some talk about Actually having a project that was going to be Attractive to independent consultants Since those are often involved in migration efforts And that's something I guess we we put that to test that at KubeCon And they were there were many consulting organizations that approached us and some of them were saying hey We're already using this thing. This is so cool. And some of them were like we weren't aware of something like this existing out there We're about to get started as soon as we can so It feels like we are in a space that there wasn't that much I mean, I don't think there are other migration tools out there But they are some they create some degree of locking to a certain vendor I mean each vendor has its own migration tools that are the resulting, you know a scenario creates some degree of locking with with some with some proprietary technologies and What we're trying to do with conveyor is to keep it essay, you know as vendor-free as possible as upstream as possible If you want to use whatever Capabilities of these distribution of Kubernetes so be it but the tool itself will will remain You know generic and on that space and won't get into that. Yeah, we got very good reception from these Consulting organizations GSIs so on and so forth I just want to interrupt while you'd had a question that actually I got something that I was wondering about which is So right now the the application assessment is is question your dream Are there plans to eventually add plugins so that that some of this assessment can be sort of code scan driven? I for various application platforms that is like if somebody's using spring or they're using Django or something else That there can actually be a plug-in that scans the application that tells you everything you're going to need to change Oh, yeah, that's that's what we do in the analysis module. That's exactly what the analysis module is So assessment question or driven. It's a high level. It's it's like the intro discussion With certain stakeholders within the organization to try to understand The application landscape so land we call landscape like the application architecture life cycle management technology stack Processes licensing everything that needs to be taken into account when you are containerizing when you're modernizing the application That's the assessment just to have a rough idea of what will be required And then once you have that idea and you want to dig deeper than you run the analysis and in the end the analysis What it does is that it finds? Antipatterns in the source code that might be preventing the application from running on the target platform that you have selected So we have in this analysis engine is in essence a rules engine and the rules contain those Antipatterns these issues that we're looking for and what we do is run the analysis against the application find issues And that's those issues also come with what we call story points that give you an idea of the Forth required to perform the changes that are depicted on these on these issues So we we go down that the route we go down to the source code level But right now we only support our engine only supports Java applications So we are working on a next generation analysis engine that will be will have a support for Any language out there that has a language server? I was actually gonna comment on that really quickly It's interesting that using the language server and I I think Microsoft invented them. I'm not Yeah, but so, you know, I I I swear they've been such a huge benefit as kind of having this generic way of like better Understanding various languages, you know, yeah visual studio kind of you know was a is a driving force But it's like been all of these different interesting kind of You know methods for for integrating with it where like where does the language server come into play? for conveyor like I kind of you know, I kind of understand loosely but kind of in a little bit more detail In the sense like if I decided I want to sit down and write a Haskell, you know plug-in for conveyor Like and there's a language server other actually no idea if there is but you know, where does it kind of fit in? Is it just kind of one aspect or can I kind of feed a large amount of the analysis into into something tool like that? And yes, that's new work. That's going on right now. We're trying to get a Early release probably in about a month or two We have a happy path that uses this language server protocol and it's work that's been going on for I don't know call about maybe six months somewhere around that The way that we're doing that is we're creating a new component That's called an analyzer LSP think of the analyzer LSP as Ramon's mentioning as a rules engine So you have the rules engineer we create the syntax This is going to be in the animal talks to you about different things is trying to find and then there is a language provider component to it And language provider component. That's the thing that could leverage a language server implementation or something else So we have one for Java, which I believe is placed on Eclipse and then we're looking into one right now for net that would use Omni sharp But if you want to one for Haskell you would take that existing language server and you'd wrap it in a small Little provider and that integrates into our engine And then from that the nice thing about it is you get all the other integrations with it So we have the application inventory, which is essentially the same It's the central thing you'd be interacting with that would have the violations the issues all that kind of information So essentially you take your small component of your language server protocol you would stitch that into the analyzer LSP and then what you're responsible for is how do you do the Changes between what we have is a rule It would an LSP query is and that's essentially the piece that you would write And we were trying to choose that because we didn't want to have to go through and write our own AST parsers and start going into stuff where it would be a huge investment So the theory was we invest most of our time into creating the rules engine We have a small little kind of shimmy layer that could do the translation from a rules engine to LSP syntax And then with that we were hoping we could leverage a lot of little things in the community got to Yeah, so I was kind of so like I think it's really interesting and I like the kind of the plug-in model of You know kind of thinking about some of these problems. I think You know one of the things and maybe this is part of what you're thinking about here, but you know in a sense a language has more Differences right then the language, you know, it's like up the way you approach Developing in Java software right is quite different than the way you approach developing Python software Whether it be, you know kind of even if they have all other aspects are being equal They could be exactly the same goal, right, but you're gonna approach it quite differently If you're doing a Python it then if you're doing it in Java Even if you do multiple compiled languages C sharp versus Java is actually even to have some pretty significant architectural differences If you are deeply into those languages, so I think that's a you know That's it's a really good thing to be careful of I did want to ask a little bit more because I'm a little bit biased but The the kind of AI tooling that you've been messing around with to try to solve for some of these problems Are you looking at like AI tooling around? Identifying how to do a migration or like or something else or like I'm not sure I can talk about that Yeah So this is very early stages Early stages the point that I've been spending probably about the past six weeks Almost all my free time going deep into the space and trying to go through course our asserts and all the kinds of things Going into deep learning the pattern that I think we have available to us is if you throw AI out You just look at what's conveyor doing right now conveyor is going through and helping people to understand issues it is Working on a pattern where once you find issues You get to see those same things repeated in multiple flavors of applications But it's the same problem essentially that people have to scale out When we look at all of that it lends itself to a point that we already have a learn loop built into the system We have folks that are going through and doing the hard piece initially to find out the roles engine other things of anti patterns and Then you get to the point where you scale this out of actually making the source code changes We don't there's essentially a thing here We're the magic of how this works people are starting to do manually when you go through an engagement We have an architect to find the first one starts going through by time it scales out to the developers making changes It's almost repeatable changes that they know about That's the first phase where I think we could tap into the AI I don't think the AI is going to do something of magic where it's going to look at two different kinds of Applications to know immediately what all the right changes are unless someone else trained it and showed what's happening and I think we have an ability to play with this because Built into the system someone's already doing that. We're already going through we're looking at the source code We know what the problems are we're flagging them through the rules engine and then a developer will take that knowledge They make their source code changes coming it back into the repo and they're doing that repetitive thing of very similar problems as they scale out So you go to hundreds of applications That's where I'm looking to see what can we do to leverage that Against some kind of model the next piece that goes into this is I'm fascinated with hugging face Just the ability of all these things you can do with open source models is amazing and then Just seeing what happens on the speed of how the innovations are coming through It feels like there's a piece there that if we can leverage something an open-source side of leveraging his models of hugging face I think I can do something an NLP side to bring it back in so we can find Essentially the changes that are going through can I can we mine that and get extract them out and then be able to apply them automatically? This is all very aggressive and it's very new but that's something that we're starting to look into and see what we can play with One thing you you were kind of saying which I I would kind of I'm not sure if this is quite where you're getting up, but I was kind of thinking about this is that Almost like you know if you can kind of keep conveyor involved Through the full migration process and then can kind of capture what they did when they migrated, right? Is that as a feedback loop, right? 100% yeah, really interesting exactly you totally have and we have that now because when we have that pivotory We have access to all the source code so we're constantly monitoring that so we're going to run our analysis scans We have the rules engine that's built in so we have all those pieces the things that we're lacking is How can we make it even easier for developers to go ahead and apply the changes? Yeah, so sorry quick somebody commented another shout-out to hugging face. We actually use hugging face in as like a recommended tool in a bunch of our ML classes because as well each says, you know, it's kind of democratizing generative AI, you know, so definitely check it out. I threw the link in In the chat in case people are interested, but yeah, I think I Sorry Okay, now, sorry. I was gonna get off the left field because I'm like wait is generative AI actually the right approach for this Um The maybe not right. I mean, but it's kind of it's Although hugging face actually does a lot. It does other kinds of AI besides generate right? Yeah, I think the basic concept what we're doing here is that we're already scan the source code and we have rules engine right now That's essentially static code analysis the second phase of this would be that After somebody has already done the work We have the commits of what they already did their source code changes in the repo Can we take that out and mine it and then start using that as the next phase when somebody goes to do a similar kind of problem that? So it's not going to be something that would be like groundbreaking where it can learn on its own and start recommending things It's never seen it's more of a case if we've already seen these commits that come in Can we learn from that and then apply that towards future ones? There's something I would like to add just before anyone gets nervous Right now. We are not reporting back those insights It's not like we are stealing insight from from your migrations or anything like that Any any organization out there can rest assured that we are not gathering or mining any data from their application source code we're just Figuring things out for the long-term future But we're definitely not there just yet and if something like that were to happen, of course We will need I mean someone agreeing that information to be fed back to to the main model But so far we're not doing anything like that because I know you know security how things are when and how nervous organizations might might be about Some stuff about their applications being revealed to the larger open source community So right now everything is fully secure. There is no telemetry back telling anything about your application portfolio to anyone So Yeah, I was actually going to ask a question that would lead to that answer if you hadn't brought it up But yeah, that is a common concern Yeah, one of things, you know, it is it is actually a security problem To even kind of understand like the layout of the servers in your environment, right? So, you know, we want to be good We want to be really cautious about how things like migrations happen and how you know applications are deployed You know kind of in general even though it is a good piece of shared in you know information You've got to be really kind of cautious about how much detail you get into about that particular instance From a security perspective. I was gonna go a little bit kind of left field here Which you haven't really mentioned but have you or are you? You have a lot of stuff in this space that you need to to do right but have you started to think about some of the more unusual or new aspects of Kind of Kubernetes computing in general but also kind of cloud native computing or a venture of an architectures etc and thought about things like when you're doing these migrations identifying opportunities for things like wasm or serverless functions or You know, so so you're not just kind of moving, you know a website over you might also be saying Hey, you know these back-end components or this API layer may be better suited as a set of serverless functions or You know, this whole UI might be better performant if you You know did it as a wasm? You know design or something. Have you started looking at that stuff yet? There are some things in the future like Service mesh things like that Distributed tracing there are some discussions on that space, but I gotta tell you the Main appetite out there is just what do I do with my legacy portfolio? That might not be the most exciting for for all, you know Techno geeks That like this this kind of stuff, but for large organizations They're making concern is that hey, I have a gazillion applications in here that are running on legacy Infrastructure on legacy servers on legacy technologies that I don't know what to do anymore I have like five different operating models across my my my portfolio I would like to unify things. I maybe I have my greenfield applications already running on on Kubernetes And I'm just experiencing the advantages on that first hand How could I get the same stuff or at least something similar for these other? 800 1000 5000 applications that I have in my my portfolio. So right now what we're doing is basically Satisfying the demand from the field of figuring out What to do with these? Traditional applications are still running on traditional infrastructure Right, that's actually I was gonna say but that actually leads to a follow-up in Langdon's question right here Which is obviously there's gonna be a lot of hey We want to know the minimal changes required to make this run on Kubernetes, right? Are you getting anybody, you know among the users in that sort of thing saying hey, I also want something to recommend Changes to take advantage of the new platform right because obviously if you're doing minimal changes You're not actually gaining anything By moving by moving to Kubernetes except not needing to maintain the old infrastructure The the gain all comes from hey Can I take this thing that say used to be a loop pulling a code loop pulling the socket and Turn it into a listener on an event stream instead, right? You know or take this thing that used to be this custom SFTP call and turn it into an open API interface The is anybody asking about that the stage or they just all too wrapped up in a in a just you know How do we get off of our old? Homebrew cloud foundry, whatever it is platform that they don't want to maintain anymore Yeah, we get requests on those topics from from time to time But right now I gotta tell you that the main focus and the main request that we get is What on earth do I do with this thing that I have with these? Gasillion applications that I have I want to have this unified operating model as we move forward as we progress We're getting some of these requests But we need to bear in mind that the conveyor project itself the engineering team that is currently contributing to that They are experts in building enterprise class tools, but they're not that that much of an expert of Migrating applications, so that's what we're why we want to set up these migration experience user group for people from consulting Organizations from vendors that have been involved in this type of modernization engagements to share raw knowledge That can then be translated into rules that our rules engines can can can use and also set the priorities On what is the next best thing that we need to take care in this migration modernization space? so so far we've discussed things like Service mesh for example, and that kind of relates to what you were saying Josh If you're talking about service mesh Then you have to get rid about things like circuit breaking source code in your application anything related to routing logging Distributed tracing all that stuff needs to go away So this this will be the next step once my application is in here. What should I do next? So with this kind of a scenario sort of migration paths We are trying to tackle the more advanced user those who are still maybe doing microservices or modern distributed applications Maybe on other platforms clouds and foundry maybe and that they want to take advantage of Kubernetes They're thinking about again service mesh or enhancing their distributed tracing I want to go from open tracing to open telemetry all that stuff So we're starting to think about these more advanced users to have something that provides value for For everyone out there in the field, but we need to get priorities from the field and that's what that's why we are Trying to set up this user group and try to involve as many Consulting Bendor even you know and organizations to tell us what are their their their pains in the end Well, and I was gonna say is you know one of the one of the good responses in an open source community Right is hey, we're taking pull requests like what I like about trying to do this experience group, right is You know At least have that group start to focus on how do I make a contribution if I want to do that thing, right? Whatever it is, you know as well as kind of gathering requirements But is there also a way to kind of say hey You know if you are interested in doing these things here's where you can plug them in So that you can you know you can go off and do them yourself and that's totally fine Well, you know, we'll take the pull request But you know that your team isn't focused on that because you're you're focused on the you know the big You know the big 800 pound gorilla problem rather than the you know the smaller monkey problems that are off to the side You know because I I think you may get random contributions there That because people will be interested in solving their individual use case So I really I really like the idea that you're kind of trying to establish an organization You know not organization, but like a group or you know a focus group or discussion section or whatever you want to call it Around that topic. Yeah, I would say someone telling us what they need or how they saw something could be as valuable and Some as some source code some modules some decent that that thing is what so we are building a Platform to somehow automate knowledge and knowledge gathering But we still not need that knowledge in a way that that can be used by this Knowledge automation engine and the knowledge itself. It's the most valuable part of what we're building Right, right Yeah, it's it's really interesting You know, I think this is kind of one of those, you know long running problems of you know You know, we even used to do this development around trying to migrate from like rail six to rail seven, you know There's there's a lot of challenges around doing These migrations and you know, and I think it's dangerous to simplify them into things like lift and shift versus My you know versus rearchitecture versus whatever it's a lot of the time It's kind of per application what you want to really do and if we can kind of give You know the end user the the opportunity to To really actually consider what they want to do for any individual scenario. It makes a lot of difference So I know we have a lot of other things we wanted to talk about I will ask our customary question though because I do want to hit it real quick But Ramon and John because we've heard the answer from Savita But what brought you to open source and or what brought you to Kubernetes in the first place? And but then after that we should probably wrap because we're starting running out of time John I'm gonna I'm gonna hit you first mine's easy I was an undergrad and a professor needed help with something he introduced me to be with clusters And that's the first time I got to install Linux at home And I was amazed by it and then it was just I I fell in love with the whole thing where if something was broken I could try to learn it. Maybe I couldn't fix it but once in a while I got lucky and that just kind of Created a spark inside of me that that was a long time ago, but it stayed. That's awesome And and what about you Ramon? My case I would say it's kind of different I come from a consulting background So I've been more in the enterprise side of things, but I'm working on red hat That's part of our DNA But that's kind of that that aligns kind of with what I was discussing with you before this user group So trying to bring this knowledge that has been laying in the consulting Enterprise side of things and make it an open source asset that others can benefit from I think that's a pretty interesting angle that I haven't seen Exploited in open source before so we're trying to transform that knowledge that has been on the enterprise space for a while Into an open source asset that can be shared across multiple organizations. So I'm in love with the with the open source model Nice I also wanted to point out that I interviewed I think Both of you Ramon and John and maybe somebody else on the level up our Multiple years ago now And so if you want to go see how far the project has come You can go watch that wicked old episode. I was trying to find it I'm pretty sure it's from 2020 right but My be you want to check it out But thank you so much for your time I think, you know, we ran out of time a little bit today from some technical difficulties And I think that means that we're gonna have to have you back You know in a few months or whatever and we're gonna expect all the language server stuff to be done Some of those AI components Of course was some integration And we'll just have this little checklist that we'll expect To for you to show us when you come back Hopefully hopefully yes. Yeah sounds good. Um, okay. Well, thanks everybody Thank you so much. Thanks for having us. Thank you. Bye everyone. Have a good day. Thank you


Wel i'n gweinio, cwrser a ffwylais drwsion o'r gweithio yng Nghymru yn yr arwain o'i gweithio. ac drwsion i gweithio gweithio'n gweithio bwysig o'r Gweithiau Brannu Cymru. Oswn i eichnydd amethar Llywodraeth, Salleann Hart, ac rwy'n gweithio'r gweithio. Rwyf iawn gweithio'r gweithio ynghylch, mae Llywodraeth William Jackson Wood yn rhighod o'r fwyllgor. O wnaeth я fy mwyaf i gweithio gweithio ar y gweithio. Felly weithio'n gwneud o colig pwyllwr. ac rwy'n cael ei wneud yr cyfrannu Llywodraeth a'r Bradnum sy'n rhoi cyfrannu'r cyfrannu. Rwy'n cael ei wneud ar y cwrdd? Rwy'n cael ei wneud ar yr cyfrannu Llywodraeth. Ieith eich cefnogi ar y cwrdd? Rwy'n cael ei wneud. Rwy'n cael eu cyfrannu Llywodraeth a'r Bradnum i'w chael eu gwirionedd. A'n gwasanaeth oherwydd, mae'n gweld yn cael ei gafod i'r adonnal. Please can those present in the council chamber note that everything on your desk, including your laptop screen, is likely to be broadcast at some point, and that the camera follows the microphone being switched on. So councillors and officers advised to wait a couple of seconds before speaking to allow the camera to catch up. Please, can anyone participating in the meeting via Teams indicate that you wished to speak via chat column? Felly, dwi'n meddwl i'n lefnodd gyda'r cwmmerol yma ymlaen nhw'n mynd i ddwylliant. Mae'r cwmmerol yn cwestiynau bod maen nhw'n meddwl i'ch cymaint o'r awn amdano, sy'n meddwl i'ch cymaintrwyddol, ac mae'n meddwl a'i gweithio'n meddwl yn gallu chi eisiau. Mae'r cwmmerol yn ei gynhyrch yn y cwmmerol, ac mae'n meddwl i'ch gael eich gwneud i'w ddwy'n meddwl i'r cymaint. Mae'r ffyrdd o'r amser yn ei gweithio, Gwybod i'r hyn o'r cwerthu i gael eu celfoedd, hanfodd i'n meddwl y celfoedd, a chael i'n ddod i'r ffalu, i gael eu celfoedd yn ymgynghwyl. Rhywbeth yn ymddi'r gweld i'r cyffredin unrhyw i'r cyffredin Salyann Hart, a rhaid i'n ddod i'r cyffredin o'r ffalu ddod i'r cyffredin Merhbwrn. I'r cyffredin yn ymddi'r cyffredin. Felly i'n gweld i'n gweld i'r cyffredin. Ymddi'r cyffredin. i chi'n meddwl i bobl? Mae, mae siwng Mwnghgrif recording. Siwng Mwnghgrif. Siwng Mwnghgrif, mae Ynw'rarydd Fyrdd Fyrdd, yn ymifintrodufd, i ddiddorol i'r roi Llyfr wasgol. Ynw'r arsig i pellwch chi fe fydd yw y dost i mendig ymddi. Dyma yw'r gyfer o gyfliad yn fawr. Mae'r gyfer o'r gymaint. Mae'r gyfer o'r gyfer o'r gweith. Mae'r cyfrindig amser. Mae'r gyfrindig yn bynnag. Ynw'r gyfrindig, o'r ffordd wych yn dweud bod gynaf yn ychydig i'ch gwaith ymryd â'r methu'i. Maen nhw Cynlliden John Williams Hello, maen nhw Cynlliden John Williams Felly, rhai ffafawr o gyrdyn newydd yn ffawr mewn fawr. Felly, rhai i gyrdyn nhw Llywodraeth yn Vitamin C02 Rhaid i'ch meddwl. Rhaid i'ch meddwl o'r peth oeddiol Rhaid i'ch meddwl o'r ffawr o'r ffordd yma Chreif hr yn barty i'r parw am ddechrau Gyfrddwch yn byth. Rhaid i'ch meddwl?キwyd. Mae gennym nhw hefyd fel Helan Cornwall, gweithio y gweithio helyniadol cymdeithasol i gyfunding gael'r ffordd. Diolch, Helan. Mae'n hynny'n gwrthiau ym Mhwyaf'r gyffredin. Gweithio byddwch i'r Advocadau Dymechry Whole Llorent, â'r rhwyng hon? Gaen, mae yma'r rheidwch. Rwy'n rheidwch'n rhannu rhannu perthynasol. Mae yma'r rhannu perthynasol i weldfyn gennym nhw. 1, y gwnaeth am y dyma wedi directorsaeth a ddechrau'r i-interest, ac maen nhw'n fyddai'r ddweud o yngrifennu o'r ddedd sydd weithio'r ei ddysgu ond y ddweud.  Ynna dros'r lle? Dwi'n mynd i'n rhoi ysgol, mae'n oes bod eu llai'r llai'r amser, mae'na talol yng nghymrwydd yn braf yn y flwyddyn pwysig. Mae'r ddysgu o'r ddau'r mhwngelwyd yng Nghymru yn 28 ddweud y nifer 2 rpm, ac mae'r ddweud yng Nghymru yma, ond gan gwybod ddim, mae'n rhaid i chi'n gweithio'r ddau'r ddau'r ddau'r 10 am ym mhwngelwyd ac i'n gweithio'r ddau'r 10 am. Yn ni wrth gweithio. Gweithio'r ddau'r ddau'r ddau? Pryddo i'r ddau'r ddau'r ddau'r ddau'r ddau'r ddau'r ddau'r ddau? The committee therefore agrees, approval of the minutes as a correct record by affirmation. So, moving on to item number four and our agenda, it's the review of the hybrid policy. The committee is being asked to note this report, make recommendations for any further actions mae'r bwysig wedi gweithio'r rhan o'r hyn o'r cyfnod. Felly, ymddangos i fynd y HIRs yng Nghymru, Helen Cornwall, os ymweld, ymddangos i fynd i gyd. Ie, wrth gwrs. Ond wefwyd o'r ffordd o'r hwygfyrddol hyd yn ysgrifftol, a'r hyn o'r ffordd yn ein gymryd yma, a'r ffordd o'r holl o'r ffordd o'r holl o'r ffordd, mae'r hyn o'r ffordd o'r hwyl, Rydyn ni wedi bod yn ystafod gyda hwn ar gyfer gwelliannau fod yn gweithio meddwlol er gael y ffordd o wrtheteg a ddefnyddio'r cyfnod ar gyfer y cyfried Strategiaid, mae meddwl yn meddwl yn cyfydlio cyflwytoedd gyrraeddol ar gyfer ffarts. Rydyn ni'n cael eu cyflwytoedd gyda'r rhyngwladol unigŵr ddiwedd i'r gwaith, ymddangas, area and team and organisation. So a lot of the positive things that have come out of the report are aligned with things that are all national coming out of the hybrid work agenda. So things like being able to recruit from a wider pool, giving flexibility for people like carers and people with childcare responsibilities. And we also surveyed members and members found that the introduction of a more hybrid working arrangements was positive and a game for a very similar things in terms of reduction of travel and being able to fit your other responsibilities around being able to also attend meetings and things like that. There's also in there about the customer output. Obviously there's been a lot of surveys recently in connection with also the four-day week, but our statistics in terms of KPIs have not been affected since we've introduced a more hybrid model and we've had the recent customer contact survey of which the results are in the appendices as well around maintaining those standards whilst we continue to do that. So obviously within the action plan there are a number of recommendations that we know we need to continue to develop what we want. So one of those things is around making sure our managers feel trained in how we support hybrid. So it brings different issues out that we need to address so making sure that our development needs for our staff are addressed and that there aren't any differentials between those people that are coming into the office and those people that choose to kind of work in a more hybrid fashion. We've also acknowledged that we need a digital skills order and review so that's to ensure that people are using the digital and software skills effectively and that any gaps in that you know in order for us to be able to work efficiently. And then I think one of the the other two kind of key things to come out of that action plan is how we address induction and new starters. Obviously historically when you come into an organisation you get a feel for the organisation, when you're sitting in a team you get to know those key players bumping to people. So we want we need to have a address how we kind of try to recreate that in a different way to make sure that everybody coming into our organisation really understands and running alongside that is just really a review of the brand of SCDC to make sure that we you know people coming here all understand what we're about and what we're trying to achieve so that we really all have the same positive experience of what it's like to work here. So if anyone has any questions I'd be happy to answer. Thank you, thank you for the report. Thank you and for summarising it there as well. Do we have any questions? Thank you. Yes, councillor Richard Stavall. Thank you chair and through you to Helen and Jeff. Hybrid policy is is kind of an essential these days and I was just reflecting on some of my career you know back in the even back in the 70s you know people were pulling you know to go hybrid and it was regarded as a good thing you know particularly in you know cases of heavy workload and people needing to focus and so on. But I think in the detail and you've touched on one or two of the I think particular pressing points and could I just highlight two one is IT provision and you've commented on the review and that's part of the action plan as I understand but of course you know somebody sitting at home with a slightly dodgy internet connection can really be detached, can get detached, they can do their work and typing and so on but as for integrating with their team you know that can be quite difficult and just IT skills you know can I fix a thing you know without having to call IT services out because I'm at home. So I do add you a comment on that. Also on how teams work because you know various comments in the press you know particularly post lockdown and I'm thinking like the business press were around the possibility for certain groups to become detached if you had a hybrid meeting those who could push their case more firmly who were physically present would always have an advantage over those more diffident members who were connected remotely. So it points to things like excellent chairing of hybrid meetings and I'm wondering how you're addressing that and then just as a footnote to all of that. I think in team working it's really valuable it may not sound terribly practical but it's really valuable just knowing where your fellow team members are physically. Are they at home or in the office? Are they travelling? Are they off sick? And I think you get almost a sense of that if you're at work in an office but you don't if you're a bit detached. I wonder if there's some way well certainly I'd be interested in your comment on that but also how could we do that in the hybrid circumstances just have give people a feel for where all of their colleagues I mean we're talking about half a dozen people perhaps but where are they and how can I get them. So there are a couple of questions I have more but let's stop there and yeah thank you. Thank you thank you is that coming to you Helen? Coming to to me initially I think yeah it is important that we have good quality IT there's certainly where we've got the ability to deliver that but we're ensuring that actually what we're using is up to date we're currently in a process of rolling out new laptops for officers because some of the laptops that we're using are now sort of four or five years old and and perhaps not up to the standard that that we have at the moment that's already that we need at the moment so that's that's happening right now. In terms of people working where they've got issues at home we you know people aren't banned from coming into the office now obviously if people have don't have the facilities to work from home people can still come in they still offer all of the facilities here there's not much we can do about people's home internet access that's that's the difficulty um but as I think you've seen we we now have moved all of our own officers onto the first floor so that you've got that kind of sense of community so if someone's coming in even if somebody from their team doesn't happen to be in the office they'll have somebody sitting near them who they'll know who they'll be regularly interacting with so we we have got that we have got the that that sense of community that we're trying to build we've told all teams that they need to get together at least twice a month as a team so that people keep that personal interaction because I think you all agree that's that's really important. One of the things that we have noted is that there's a danger when people are working from home that that sense of team can drift away. In terms of the managers keeping tabs on people yeah it's it's we're giving our managers the skills that they need to do that both in terms of a pack that Helen put together actually that's gone out to managers but we're also running leadership academy training that's happened for one group of managers already this year and we're just planning that the next group and a big part of that is giving managers the skills that they need to understand how people are doing to keep an eye on people and to make sure that they're still building that rapport with the team and we understand how the team are thinking so it is it is more challenging for managers who have to operate in a very different way as you rightly say if you happen to be sitting with people and you know where they are on a regular basis that builds a certain type of camaraderie but actually we're also finding it's easy for people to get together as a team using that for example that's confusing because it's called teams but teams to get to you if you use the team system so actually if you've got people that are out and about um like like some of our planners for example that go out on site quite a lot and spend a lot of time on the district actually it's a lot easier for them to get together um virtually as a team a couple of times a week just spend 10 sort of 15 minutes chatting about what they're doing and where they're that that they're going that that actually wouldn't have been able to do if they were primarily off this place so that there are there are sort of the swings around about um but yeah we are very aware of the fact that managers need to to be given the skills to manage in a very different play I don't know if there's anything you wanted to add to that Ellen? I suppose the only thing is obviously yes we've identified around the the leadership and the the skillset that we need to provide for managers and like Jeff said um we've already put out a toolkit which details a number of different things that um managers can use within their team we've also rolled out team charters which quite clearly um you know teams then can manage their own expectations expectations within their team about how they communicate and how they do so we will continue uh like Jeff said alongside the leadership academy to provide managers with those tools um you know and ideas about how they can recreate those kind of things in a hybrid manner. Does that answer your questions? Chair thank you thank you very much through you Jeff thank you um to Jeff and to Helen um just one perhaps follow up to that um team effectiveness and team leadership um are there um I mean we've talked about metrics and performance metrics and ultimately kpi's which are the result of effective teams but are there any who will intermediate metrics that could be applied just to check progress? Yes the council is actually very focused on not only the key kpi's which report in the performance indicators but actually on management information systems and what we're looking to do is strengthen management information systems across the council we've got some areas that have traditionally been really good at the information they've provided and again the planning department is a very good example of that where you've got um tools that that are providing up to up to the minute information on what's happening across you know across the teams and we're looking to learn from that and roll that out to all managers so they've got live dashboards wherever possible um that's going to take probably about a year to 18 months to roll out across the whole of the council but one of the key aspects is learning from when there is good practice and making sure that we give that good practice to everybody in the council so yeah there again different services have different metrics in their management information systems but most services have got them and where they haven't got them they're going to be introduced not only that but leadership team which meets weekly are going to monitor some of those key indicators on a weekly basis so that we get a we can see if things start to move in the wrong direction and then it's always easier to head off a problem that it is to deal to deal with it once it's developed so yes management information systems are important part of how the council is going to work moving forward thank you chair yeah through you chair thank you thank you um can't sound about them thank you chair um I just had uh one kind of a couple of requests on the actual report side for when this comes back in a year or whenever can you remind us what CIPD is and um also I know it sounds obvious but it would be really useful to have a definition right at the very beginning of the report saying what hybrid working is because it doesn't say it and it's um it it becomes obvious you know but because in times to come this might become such a normal thing that we forget what it was if you should I mean okay so um but the substantive questions are um I was thinking about the business of people being hybrid working at home and I'm pleased to see that there's there's the distinction between those who are on the go and those who are desk based and I wondered if there are sort of set restrictions on those who've got access to highly confidential data you know finance or personnel data or that they can only work in a particular way maybe only in the office or only on a specific device and are there or is that all managed by electronic gateways as it were um and and secure logins and such like and I'll ask if I make I've got a second one but I'll pause on that one if I may through you chair thank you Helen it's time for you thank you um yes um we don't play specific restrictions as such on people but obviously those um employees who are aware that they deal with confidentiality um well all of our employees have to go through GDPR training and things like that and all of our officers have to use council devices which have got the IT systems in place to ensure that they're you know secure and things like that we've um obviously moved away from a lot of paper and um physical attributes and so the majority of our um data is stored electronically which is obviously protected by the council's network information systems but we do obviously reiterate to all staff that they have to be mindful that if they are working in a public place where they can see you know things and they are working in a confidential nature that they must you know obviously adhere to the same principles as they would if they were in the office and often in the office you know we've got a very open plan so you you have to be mindful all the time of what you're dealing with and who around you might be able to see something so I think the principles run through in terms of officers regardless of whether you're here working in another office or working at home and even at home we have to be mindful of the the simple stuff like looking um uh you're you're computed when you go for make a cup of coffee that's a silly thing okay Emma I'll just add one small thing to that in the unlikely event that a device is lost or stolen it can be wiped remotely so actually all of the confidential data will be removed from any device oh good that's useful to know thank you okay um so the second one is it's a bit um convoluted you said in your presentation Helen that you the members have been asked um been involved in the um information gathering about the hybrid policy and I wondered if that was members being asked as users of services provided by the officers or whether that was as users of them of remote working themselves because in this document there I can't see any reference to members being actually sorry it's a bit of an esoteric point but being part of the council and using this too I know we are and but um so in other words that we effectively are by default hybrid workers as members and um I just wondered whether we were those questions were being asked of members as remote workers which we are or whether we were being asked as members who are trying to access people who were maybe working from home do you sort of mean that and and it's just a feeling that right so if you if you have um if you're trying to work remotely obviously we have an IT help desk and as members we have an IT help desk but I just wondered whether there is the same amount of consideration being given to members who are working from home in a rather different way to the you know we haven't we haven't got access to the same kind of files and things I mean okay we've got modern girl but I just wondered whether there's the same consideration given to members as there are to staff thank thank you I just like to welcome councillor Mark Howard to the meeting thank you chairman it is courtesy normally that I would apologise for my weak behavior but since I was attending my grandson's sports day I don't apologize at all thank you Helen over to you for that yes so um I'll respond in terms of the member survey the member survey was sent out um in to gather information in both of those aspects actually so interestingly to see what your feedback is in being able to work in a more hybrid way since obviously the meetings have now become hybrid um and whether there's positives and also opportunities for continued learning which I think um is reflected a little bit in the report and and similar to officers I think in terms of that making sure there's equality in both the people in the room and the people that attend online um but it was also to gather information in terms of how you interact with the officers who are working hybrid so yeah um in answer to your question it was a dual purpose just on the technology issue we're continuing to work with 3CICT to give members increasing access to being able to share documents and um diaries with officers but that a significant step was made for forward last month um those officers can share elements of um office 365 and we're still working towards delivering improved communication through teams which will allow joint teams of members and officers and I say the sharing of documents thank you um councillor John Williams thank thank you chair I just want to um say um thank you to to head and Jeff for the review I think I want to emphasise that um how hybrid policy is at the core of our transformation program and also our four-day week and without this flexible um hybrid policy neither of those would be would be possible and successful so um thank you very much for the review um personally I think that um the way that we work in this council is very um productive and um you know we are the one of the leading councils in this and um we certainly will continue to be so and again that's a thing thank you very much for the review and and the support that you've been given members thank you thank you thank you um do we have any other questions I just got a just a comment oh sorry sorry councillor so yeah thank you chair um so um I just wanted to um mention how useful that CIPD report was um it was very helpful I wondered if um Southcams had actually participated in that survey um as a as an organisation um I don't believe that we did on this occasion no but it was a very useful report yeah absolutely so um I think it um I looked at that a little late in the day I mean it should be read alongside the report it's full of useful comments and one of the recommendations that come through that report for policy makers and I guess we fall into that category of policy makers was myth busting uh and of course we're doing myth busting all the time um and I think in regard to things like hybrid working which um some of our residents might not understand um then we like to tell the facts about how things how things are um and so um we generally have very good flow of communication about how things are going and that's when the pleasures of being a member of this committee but for our colleagues who um may not be in that kind of day-to-day contact with those um that kind of good reports of uh for example hybrid working what's the best way of getting that information to them um do we publicise this well um are there is there information on insight for example which we could um encourage uh other members to go and look at um to help appreciate the progress that's being made and the things that are being done for you chair thank you yeah that's a really good point I mean we end up we have a weekly bulletin that goes out to all members and officers for example um in the one that's going to come out I think later on this week for for example there's going to be a link to a video which talks about the work that's being done in the planning service that there's the opportunity perhaps for us to look at doing something similar in relation to hybrid working because actually that's that's often an easy way for people to get the information when it's convenient for them they just need to click on the link and look at the video so um I'll discuss that with some other officers outside this meeting and uh and see if that's the best way of disseminating the information yeah through you chair thank you thank you thank you very much um thank you members um I did look out cipd because it wasn't on the tip of my tongue and I've got that as the chartered institute of personnel and development uh council mark howe I'm so sorry chairman the problem is we're coming in late you don't know this question's already been answered so I want to ask a question with regards to people who are working out of the office if I just use that generic term and they're dealing with confidential information can you tell me what's happening there please you're fine okay only just miss that one but we'll go over it again if that's okay thank you yeah um in essence um it's very similar to what's going on in the office in terms of making sure that all staff are trained in GDPR and confidentiality and actually as we move away from a lot of physical documentation things are stored which are then protected um electronically by our IT systems uh but staff are also given information and told about making sure that there is an awareness of where they are working and so whether that's in the office at home or in a public space mindful of the information that they've got chairman again on the risk that this has already been said um when I in the past had to work in an environment where jeffin was very confidential we had certain screens put on them unless you were right in front of them and within a certain distance it made no difference to someone you're looking at them may I can give you some advice that that be looked at if certain highly confidential things are being looked at I'm assuming more in the housing department than anywhere else but it could be right throughout the council thank you thank you thank you um there's nothing else I think the only thing I think I just spotted there was a missing full stop on page 22 in the in the box that comes just before uh although they may have some pre-determined hours location uh requirements and then it's got a cab it's got individuals in the team it's got capitalized I think there's full stop so um so members um we're invited to make recommendations regarding the action plan and I think there've been some actions that come through that and obviously we'll be on the minutes and we'll be um recommended um and uh to agree a further update in a year's time it's it's does that sound like a um the right length of time but lovely and I think you were going to mention Jeff that there'll be some information there that may well be coming changes within that time scale as well thank you and we're just now invited to note the report so can I say that we've noted thank you thank you members next up lovely thank you okay um item number five on our agenda is the um HR recruitment retention and absence data for May 2023 and we're being invited to again note the report and thank you again Helen um for presenting this report to us thank you chair uh so it was agreed um previously you got a lot more statistics um however what we are trying to do is give you some more real-time data so our HR system now allows for us to um give you data on a much more up-to-date basis so what you've got here is the stats for last month um and so as you can see the turnover stats for the last month are relatively low uh these are voluntary um turnover stats um obviously um we can give you stats that compare to other points in the year if that's helpful and I guess some feedback in terms of whether there are different things that you want to see um and we are also looking to um develop some recruitment and retention statistics as part of the uh four day week program and like I've put in there we're starting to look at surveying staff um that I've been here for about six months to look at um how we are retaining staff or what we might be able to do to stop staff leaving um and we're also hoping to launch the new recruitment module which will again give us a wealth more stats in terms of recruitment and and uh things like that uh in terms of our absence data it has increased slightly from last month but compared to last year is relatively stable and again um we aren't able to give you because the reduction in numbers we're not able to break down those statistics without sharing like information that may be deemed confidential um so um you've got kind of an overview of the month there um but again if that would be helpful to do that on a comparison against the year target then um you know we can do that as well. Thank you, thank you. Councillor Henry Bradlin. Thank you Helen um I I uh you can see I'm looking at the sun paper but I also did look at it online and either way I found these white on blue boxes almost impossible to read um I don't know if that's just my eyesight but I found it very hard to read them um but um and I don't know if that's just a product of the way the output from a standard software package is doing it but I just wondered whether it was possible to do it back on white or something like that you know whatever um but I think it's partly it's just very small but anyway um one of the things that I found myself asking with a lot of this data and I'm I'm referring to the table in the middle of page 35 for example it's days lost working um for the current period and the previous period it's it's not clear whether the previous period it's referring to the comparator period is the previous month or the previous year it just doesn't say so we're not quite sure if we're looking at like like last year or last month um and uh I just wondered whether this is something that is you're finding useful uh I think it'd be useful that it does come back to employment and staffing but I just wondered if this is a format or that that that you find helpful and gives you hooks if you've got things that you're worried about and gives you early warning of things thank you Helen would you like to come back on that um yes certainly so this is part of our one of our standard reporting packages and I can certainly look at changing the colour and try and make that a bit bigger as well um yes apologies that it doesn't say but it is compared to the previous month so but we can compare on a number of different things that the package um is huge and gives us all sorts so it's really trying to drill down um my team do look at this on a monthly basis and obviously they have the finer detail and so we look at those and we use those to determine what interventions with that we might need to take or if there's an area of concern so um you know if um for example stress um has increased what mechanisms can we put in place so yes we definitely use this data um considerably but obviously it's more in the detail so this just gives you an overview. If members have got any specific information that isn't included in this um and they would like please please let us know what we'll look to make sure that that goes in in the future and this is actually the format that's used for our managers as well as for the members so actually this is a really good investment of time by the HR team because it provides something that's useful across the board um so yes it is it is certainly used not only by the HR team but by the managers generally. Thank you thank you um one of the benefits of looping it on the screen is the can make it bigger so that's what I did um Councillor Richard Stoball. Chair thank you um so um with regard to um retention um and absence there are a few things going on of course we've just been talking about hybrid working which has its own set of benefits um and effects on the workforce um there's also the four day week um and I'm wondering how you might tease the effects apart if you will it may be very difficult to do but um Helen you were just saying that the package uh sorry Jeff perhaps um but um you're saying that the package is very capable um but I wonder if it might be this could be based on time scales and and when things happen and so on but could we begin to see the effects different effects um to be able to um place in numbers on them um yeah I might hand over to Helen in a minute but as part of measuring the impact of the four day week the HR team are developing a range of indicators particularly around recruitment to find out how influential the fact that we're running a four day week pilot has been in terms of people who apply for jobs and who uh accept jobs I'm not quite sure how far that package is developed Helen in a unit position team and date us on that um yeah so in in terms of a package um so there are a number of different surveys that we're trying to do one like I've said about those people that have applied for jobs but haven't been successful but have been interviewed obviously we rely very much on honesty and you know some people may not want to admit that they're coming to work here just for the four day week so um or for another reason so but we are starting to collate that data so certainly um on application forms now we ask why people want to come and work here so we're going to do the follow-up survey for people who um have been interviewed but haven't been successful in terms of whether they might look to reapply for a job here and then the survey which will be kind of like a a stay interview I think the current kind of thinking is so talking to people have been here six months like you know how how have you found it have been here what have been the positives um and then looking to kind of look at that group of people that have got the potential you know to maybe look elsewhere how do we keep them in the organisation thank you Helen that certainly answers my question about the survey of those who have been unsuccessful at interview I was trying to work out what that what that constituted for thank you uh uh councillor Stowe does that answer your question it does chair thank you thank you thank you uh councillor Sinita Hansraic I'm just curious have you heard anybody saying they'll leave and once the four day week came in they decided not to um we do offer every person who wants to leave the organisation and exit interview um and one of those questions is around um you know has there been any impact um but I don't have the data in front of me so I'd have to have a look at that but it is something that we try to collate as well as any feedback on um our hybrid provision as well as feedback on IT and skills and development learning opportunities so this you know everybody has the opportunity to either meet with someone in the HR team or to complete the form online and we gather that data and again it's something that we use then to for interventions in terms of what can we do um if there are a lot of people saying the same thing when there are issues thank you thank you it'd be interesting to know if anybody changed their mind and didn't really didn't leave because of the four day week perhaps yeah thank you thank you um any other questions members comments uh councillor John Williams I mean the only point I'll make is is an obvious one is that um you know it's it's early days but um the the uh recruitment of staff and the filling of those posts um you know for many years I've sat here and listened to us not able to fill posts and the information we've got the report here is very encouraging um that as a result of four day week it would appear that we're we are now not in that position absolutely lovely to see that we're having applications and yeah able to recruit to post thank you I was going to say if that's okay chair that um it's again it's difficult to know whether it definitely is the four day week but I think members will be aware that there were particularly three posts in planning they've been vacant for a long time that suddenly not then got filled very quickly after we started the four day week trial now um you can't say that that was definitely the four day week but I think it's a little bit more than a coincidence having that flexibility yeah thank you um so members we're actually uh if everybody's finished with our invitations to to note this report so I think we've duly noted thank you very much and the last item is the date of the next meeting so uh we have that as Friday the 15th of September and set September not December can I just check 10 a.m. Friday the 15th of yes chair I can confirm that we are at 10 a.m. lovely thank you thank you members and thank you thank you for your time today


Good afternoon. I am Francisco Mallorca, Mexican Minister of Agriculture. I am here in Puerto Vallarta for attending the E20 meeting organized by the Global Economic Forum. We are engaged in a very interesting project regarding public pilot partnership with the pilot sector providing responses to the global challenge of hitting the black population. We are preparing the E20 meeting in Los Cabos for next June. We are working especially on water safety issues.


Everybody forced here up at 2023 Star Wars Return of the Jedi sapphire Five bucks number 21 random pack style starts 40 packs eight per box This will be box one will go one through eight top down They'll be pull them out so that they're sitting just like that top down one through eight and then so on nine through sixteen And we'll just keep going there so you get assigned a number one through 40 per spot and then yeah We'll get ripping. Good luck everybody. Let's find some big-time parallels. Let's find an onyx one of one It will go three times Three times will random Think sold out fast. Thank you guys so much. I love this stuff one two and three Francis D Got him bottom and the pack numbers one two and three 12 down to eight Okay, Francis D 12 drew B 26 13 Robert P 11 Philip s 30 Paul B 7 drew B 38 Philip 2 drew 3 Robert 35 Paul 5 drew 24 Philip 21 Paul 33 and 37 drew 19 Paul 10 Robert P 17 Philip 28 Paul 31 Philip 34 Lynn 20 Francis 36 6 drew 27 Francis 1 drew 9 Lynn 22 25 Francis with 22 23 drew 18 Paul 14 Robert 29 Francis 39 drew for Robert P with 15 Philip with 16 Paul with 40 Francis with eight. I Realize parts way through I could just use your guys first name. It's just like six of you in the break. That's it, right? All right Here comes your links. You can check out the packs. I'll just be calling out numbers not the names or every single one of these Let's get to it. I think Sean's ready I think he's ready guys All right packs one through eight again at top down One top eight on the bottom Number one So again the blue will be this series one red series to I believe on solo alive Sitting with royalty Luke Skywalker nice portrait. It's a good start for pack one out on the forest pack two snagged by the Ewoks There's Darth Vader is down the allies meet and Jabba the hut on a sail bar Number three air loud coming up The plan begins poor from the pits Princess Leia smile and the orange checklist here number 18 and 25 133 to 220 Go pack three pack four a new challenge Message for Jabba the huts arrival of bush and the Skywalker factor Five Escorted to the Ewok village. There's a sticker variation of the bush disguise Leia. There you go Out of work about two or three a case on those battle of the bunker and serious situation six swing to safety Insan job of the huts palace congratulating wedge and horrendous creature horrendous creature Mobile Sam. Oh boy horrendous creature indeed number seven Got the Ewok leaders. That's what it looks like when Sam and Dylan are try to make decisions on stream right there There they are Han Solo giving up Aqua nice Han Solo's approach to 75 That's solid and then the future mission. Yeah, I've enjoyed a so-called so far Biker Scout and the battle and the battlefield and the battlefield. Yeah hulking the Maury and guard pondering the raid and full-fledged Jedi There's nine three sixteen here Yeah, that was for sure that I'm looking for the stranger things box ball hundred percent on that All right number nine of the forest fighters Portrait of Chewbacca Break for freedom in a checklist Number ten three PO an R2 emperors offer sail barge in the desert skiff and Soldiers of the Empire Number 11 Intergalactic gangster the Death Star with a green to 60 captured by the Ewoks and the rescuer 12 decarbonized Luke Skywalker the Jedi Sail barge battle and science it was yay through the chain off. Got him science it was there 13 And or was amazing and or was phenomenal. They're just way different shows Battle begins Luke Skywalker surrenders path to destiny And salacious crumb there he is 14 14 you order the Jedi master a ma a monstrous guest Victory celebration in Lando 15 Gamorian Guard emerges perils scout peril Aqua to 75 is all hail C3PO That's when I walk into work.  Yeah, I think it's so close solid. I wouldn't say it was like really good But I enjoyed it. I Still haven't I haven't finished out though. It should be fair. I haven't seen the last episode yet All right guys three on flawless 11 on immaculate luminance last three on flawless Gotta find a dual mag so you can you could display that salacious crumb next to your salacious crumb auto Got problems drew got problems So do so do the rest of us. All right. I just marked the last few teams down as well on On flawless jets are under 700 bucks. Yeah, the throne actor was good. I like the throne actor Forget his name. I'll tell my how I should know his name. He's a good actor So being actor was meh For Zahra Dawson is good. I like the Ezra. I like the Ezra actor. He's good 19 no 17 17 17 17 comes after that's that's a group of eights all hail C3PO Got the rescue there the secret revealed vision or Mission destroy the desk are so hard to read some of these with a sapphire on them if you're looking at it the wrong angle those are the Ewoks This is 18 Joyden the Ewok star lovers under attack and Master of his court. Yeah, Sean's got no idea 19 here 19 right here Law Grand Chief Chirpa The Royal Droid. Yeah, dude. That's oh wonder where Stranger Things box is for Paul Well, let's go try and find it Sam and Dylan at 1 a.m. On a Sunday morning After a night of breaks the Royal Droid the young Jedi Knight That's Jake when he gets a haircut and Gold the 15 deadly plunge Deadly plunged a 15 gold even though to be fair the boxes weren't there Lane had him at the show So Lane is Lane is the culprit. Yeah, but still 20. But yeah, that's what they looked like Not saying they should have found it because it didn't exist but that's what they look like tighten up 20 prisoners Rebel cruiser Observed by the Ewoks and the Thai interceptor 21 a1 Chewbacca triumphant checklist the raging battle. It's one of the cooler looking cards and The dreaded wrangler Someone just closed out of macululuminates Michael a closes out of macululuminates. I guess that's next. All right, we'll keep it rolling here 22 I mean The Emperor Walk the plank levitated by Luke and Boba Fett's last stance 23 Morian guard God sail barge creatures these sail barge creatures reunion on indoor and a green is 60 there They are again unexpected allies There they are again Gotta go fun Paul stranger things box and 24 hands on sugar From no country for old men The demise of Jabba the huts rival of the Emperor That's funny Jake Admiral Ackbar's defenders Okay, 25 to what 32 now I guess 25 Lando caressian undercover courageous Ewoks Corridors of the Imperial destroyer destroyer. Well, that's what I said and ready for action said destroyer 26 on the sail barge pensive Luke Skywalker bizarre alien creatures and The friends depart 27 aqua coming up. There's confronting their destiny the young Jedi R2-D2 on indoor and an aqua of awaiting his majesty 15 of 75 28 28 the villains confer Star quiz return to the Jedi that is job of the hustler dancing girl and curious Ewok 29 The inspection lightsaber battle Princess Leia to the rescue and the approach of wicked When did you if they'll if you bought them recently they'll probably rip tomorrow night Got a ton of orders to get to tonight. Yeah, it's usually after group after group breaks every night 30 nice Darth Vader portrait got stormtrooper attack The nearly completed death star and the bounty hunter bush 31 Of course thomas. Thanks for the order. But yeah check in tomorrow when the stream starts like in the evening And I'll give you a better idea victors Rescue purple low number purple coming up right here Uh toward the desert palace and a purple Number to 10 is the rescue the rescue work. Excuse me six of 10 Leia with the bush disguise and hawn in carbonite That's pretty sweet and 32 Is toward the star like pit r2 meets wicket court of evil And the death star raid court of evil that's uh That's what my parents would uh I would get in trouble with my parents when I was a kid. That's the court of evil right there Why don't you break the window? number 33 God facing job of the huts Han Solo's in trouble Uh dungeons of job of the huts and the triumphant trio 34 Orlando caucasians disguise Watched by bubba Fett. What? Job of the huts And military leader admiral akbar really from what? Oh boy, here we go. There we go That's verify that how am I gonna verify that call them called joe rogan I don't want to talk to joe rogan. Well, I don't see anything. I don't see anything dude Troll troll troll Anyway, what are we on? Uh, we are on 35 sir five Captured we've got bib fortuna aqua number 275 is guests of job of the huts And a chubaca. It's not a copypasta. That's like one sentence copypasta is more than that Uh 36 got the uh Confrontation captured by ewoks master of terror monstrous fate number 37 seven now right 37 Princess leia portrait Time out for love uh, the captive princess and guardians of the emperor 38 of widow and java heroic droids collection of creatures and benevolent creature 49 got droopy mccool Portrait of wickets with a green to be the last parallel of the break here Number to 60 master of terror nice 16 of 60 master of terror And last pack number 40 turn of the jedi title card there The poster card grandcore pit newfound friend And lead singer scissor that'll do it for the break. Thanks. Get everybody moving on to the mixer next