Hello and welcome to NewsClick. We've had in the past few days a lot of controversy of senior army officers, Air Force and other defense services officers writing to the president saying that the way army is being politicized, the defense services are being politicized is wrong. The effort was led by three senior defense services officers. One was Admiral Ramdas, other was Major General Bombat Kare and we have with us Major Chaudhary, Priyadarshi Chaudhary who's also been one of the people who's organized the signature campaigns. The whole controversy started from the fact that two of the officers were alleged to have withdrawn their signatures and this whole attempt by more than 150 officers written to the president. The whole effort was sought to be undermined by calling it fake news. Major Priyadarshi, how do you look at this attempt because A&I seems to have been in the center of this effort to delegitimize the entire signature campaign by saying that hey, two officers have withdrawn, most of the signatures could be fake and giving it the color of fake news. We cannot fathom why A&I did what it did. The fact remains that the veteran fraternity was extremely anguished about the sort of politicization that was being done. Post-Pulwama, it started post-Pulwama. Actually it started in 2016 post the surgical strikes but in the ongoing elections, Lok Sabha 2019, it started post-Pulwama, then Balakot and after that. So after that, when Yogi Adityanath and Mukhtar Abbasanakvi started addressing rallies and addressed the armed forces as saying that the Modi Kishena, that's the time when Admiral Ramdas wrote to the EC and complained. The EC issued an advisory to all political parties to desist. It also cautioned Yogi Adityanath not to do this again. It did not stop there. It did not stop. Most BJP leaders continued to do it including the Prime Minister. That's the time when we thought we must use the available institutional mechanism available to us and write to the Supreme Commander. President being the Supreme Commander of the Defence Forces. Correct. So 156 officers including 8 Chiefs signed on the document. Former Chiefs. Former Chiefs endorsed the document by email and primarily on emails. And we had kept the records. When I sent out the mail, in the morning I was surprised to find out that the Defence Minister had called us as fake and vested interests and what not. So I was extremely surprised and then I realized that two of our Chiefs had given public statements saying that they had not signed. They were General Rodrigues and Air Marshal Suri. So if you look at my tweet thread, the Chiefs took a stance and we respected their views. So we didn't counter them. I see that you have said that they are my senior officers. If they have said it for whatever may be the reason, I will not contest it. But there is record on your computers that they are actually given their consent. They either forgot about it or had second thoughts. Or misunderstood the entire exercise. That is also a possibility. There was immense pressure on us from other officers who were saying that our credibility is being put on line by the Raksha Mantri and ANI and various news channels. So why aren't you releasing the proof? We held on to it as much as we thought it will die down. It did not. So effectively then we were forced to release the proofs. And this has been produced by wire and news central 24-7. Correct. General ML Naidu from a vice chief was also in the news if you see on that day on 12th morning. They were saying three senior officers have withdrawn. ANI quoted General Naidu. But General Naidu wrote back to us immediately with the videos and documents saying that I have not by firmly endorsed the stand that has been taken by the veterans. And ANI is misquoting me. So we released that proof also which News Central carried. Wire went to the extent of sending somebody to examine our computers and taking on proof. General Bombat Karis computer. Correct. Which they did. And then wire carried that story. After that we waited for a few days hoping that ANI would apologize or retract the stories which did not happen. Then we were constrained and anguished enough to write to Thomson Reuters. We knew Thomson Reuters had done a strategic investment in June 2018 with ANI holding 49% stake. So we wrote to Thomson Reuters and asked them some pertinent questions. You basically asked them what is their stand on ANI's behavior in this case? Also editorial content, do the due diligence, all of that. There are four questions which is in the public domain which I have asked. I wrote. Let me make this categorically clear. I wrote because I was anguished enough. It does not imply that all the 156 and subsequently 422 officers are there have signed on, have subscribed to my actions. What you are saying is now from the 156 original sig data. That is to the president. That's the president. Now we have the total number is 422 now. It's an ongoing campaign because the Rastapati Bhavan said that they, first they said they denied they have received anything but no mail said bounced. And when journalists kept on asking us Rastapati Bhavan is denying this, we said it's an open letter. Any way we are sending physical copies which we dispatched. We have delivery receipts from India Post by Speed Post and Registered Post that they had received. So telegraph spoke to the press secretary of Rastapati Bhavan and asked. So which he confirmed that he has received the letters but they are not ink signed which I find absolutely ridiculous in today's day and age. Till date Rastapati Bhavan refuses to take cognizance of it and the EC also. My question to the EC is if you had issued a caution and an advisory and you cautioned Yogi Adityanath, what is stopping you from cautioning the prime minister or anybody else who is doing it? But coming back to the story about A&I and Thompson Reuters. What is the Thompson Reuters position after you brought this out? Particularly as they are a foreign entity and this is the Indian elections are going on. A&I's attempt appears to be a blatant effort to misguide the voters. I have written that very clearly that the bias and malicious reporting that A&I is doing is not only slander but also tantamounts to perfidious reporting and with the view to influencing the ongoing elections. And I have asked Thompson Reuters categorically that as a listed entity of the US, you are bound by a certain code of conduct, code of ethics that are there. There is an ethics committee there. There is also the mission statement that is there that they do business in an ethical manner. We have pointed those things out. So when I wrote to that and I asked for acknowledgement, Joel Ivory Hart, one of the communications person, wrote back to me saying that they have received them and they are processing it. I wrote back to them saying that, listen, we do not have the luxury of time these ongoing elections and A&I continues to do what it is doing and it is not healthy for us as a country or as a democracy. So they acknowledge that mail also and they will process it in view of the second mail that I wrote back to them. One day after that they wrote back to us saying that we should contact A&I directly for resolution of this complaint.  And of course they have not replied back. They have not replied back. We have had discussions about what is happening in the country earlier as well as news click with you. How do you take this whole politicization of the armed forces as you called it but also the misuse of the armed forces name for electoral benefits? After all, what are the armed forces does? It does in the name of the president and it does in the name of the country. It does not do on behalf of the political party to take those actions which have been taken on behalf of the country and make it as if it is a political party which is in charge of the army or armed forces. How do you take this whole issue? If you remember Praveer we did a show here post Pulwama and we started talking about the politicization but to my mind this entire exercise is an attempt by the BJP and I am naming the BJP here and Narendra Modiji to blur the lines between the government and the political party. It is here where the danger lies. When the government takes strong actions against a race or any hits on a serving armed forces the government is well within its right to talk about it, to declare it to the press, to hold press conferences but it is not the same when you take it to the electoral stage and rallies and ask for votes based on the actions that has been done. This sort of thing has never happened in the past 70 years. I was there in military operations directed when Kargil happened. We haven't seen Vajpayee Ji doing it. Before that I was too young then to realize what Indra Randeji did otherwise but definitely during Vajpayee Ji's time I was when the entire Kargil this sort of thing never happened. This is a serious threat to democracy involving the armed forces in for demanding votes and politicizing the defence forces. We consider it as a threat absolutely to our country. You know the bigger threat is if the armed forces is politicized that the armed forces in number of countries have taken over the politics and that's a longer threat that you, the bigger threat the country carries this kind of short-sighted policies. Pakistan and China both have political armies. China is completely political. It is subservient to the party. Pakistan the armed forces control the government. Do we want a situation like that in our country? Isn't that a threat to democracy? I mean I would have thought that this is something in the 60s was discussed. If you remember there's a military coup in Pakistan after which this kind of discussion took place in India also and both the armed forces and the political establishment have actually been very cautious of this count to see that they don't politicize the armed forces. Armed forces do not directly come into politics. This is the now we shall be said the Chinese wall being breached. It is not breached yet. It's just an attempt. The armed forces ethos and traditions of the Indian army are very strong. You don't think that they'll be able to stand up for this? No, I don't think that sort of a breach will ever happen but any attempt to do so only undermines the institution. We can't afford if we do not step up and stand for what is correct then we are just on a slippery downhill path. And the fact that the retired officers have stepped up is basically giving voice to what the serving officers can't say about it. We are in very close touch with the serving fraternity. They can't speak because the freedom of speech is abrogated. It is for us to step up and spell out a concern. We have been doing this for the last four or five years. You know about it or degradation, contourment roads. We have had many shows right here in this room on all these issues. Touch upon the armed forces. But we do not ever talk about operational matters. May I just show you this? Also the other issue that has come up, you have been active in your other capacities also the chit fund issues, the fact that the chit funds have betrayed the people rather than with the money and so on. Now in this there are also charges against you that as a part of that you are political. So how would you respond to that? Prabir, I will just take you back four years on 14th of August 2015. If Narendra Modiji and BJP had not largely charged us I assure you I would have been in a corporate somewhere without doing any of this. I do not enjoy the heat and this thing of the pavement as much as I like my other thing. That is charged on who? On the veterans in Jantar Madara. With that was something which came to us as a rude, rude surprise. And thereafter the constant lies on Europe that is still going on. Well, it angers us, anguishes us. It is the very least that I can say. The fact of the devotion of the arms of the seniors in the list of the... So let me complete this. So BJP posed this thing after the entire human crime the country stood behind us gave out a pension enhancement. We call it a pension enhancement and not Europe. And they sought to take advantage of it and by launching a massive PR campaign and social media campaign saying that and they also sought to divide of fraternity to some extent they succeeded. What we did as a counter is we sought to unite the country behind us and tell the truth. So to that extent when they sought to divide we stepped up and asked the country. We fought for the country. Now the country will fight for us. We must, we owe it to the country to tell them the truth. Therefore we tied up with the Kisan's first. Last year the series of Kisan marches that happened. Jai Jawan Jai Kisan is not limited to a slogan anymore. It is percolated down to the ground. We aligned with secular forces and around issues of the people rather than focusing on any political party or any political leader. As an exercise, as a spin-off of that entire exercise we did a nine-day agitation called India Units and starting from January 30th this year 40 odd organizations came together to say that focus around people's issues rather than political issues of whatever case. One of those organizations was the CHIT fund, the PSEL ASO, ASO which is very active in doing this. We held massive rally. 40,000 people on the streets on that day came from everywhere spending their own money. So I am the national coordinator of that and we had, from 2015 we have been saying we will punish you if you do not address our issues because the time for punishment is now. We have consolidated those votes. I am being absolutely clear. We have written to the president about not politicizing the armed forces. In a democracy, we as veterans and as citizens have a role to play. We are playing that role. In a democracy, the only way you can act... After retired officers are in the cabinet. So therefore they are also... That's a different issue altogether. Let's put this once and for all. We are political creatures but we are not into electoral politics.  We will continue to build the pressure and make sure that the political costs of not addressing our issues mount. Not now, even in the future. The last question. There have been a lot of questions. A lot of, shall we say, taking credit for the full Obama or taking credit for surgical strikes, air strikes. But when you come to serving army men or you talk to the BSF Javans or you talk to the CRP Javans there is a huge complaint regarding food, regarding the basic amenities and so on. If you remember, they said... Ration money being dropped, taken out, whatever. Particularly the armed forces, there is also this issue about the ration money. So what is the issue of the ration money which I believe has now... Been withdrawn. It's been withdrawn and the rates are very low. What does it really mean? It means that earlier, all serving armed forces personnel were issued rations on a certain scale to maintain the diet and considering the climatic conditions. There is a lot of scientific thought that had gone behind it. Presumably because of budget constraints the government thought it fit to withdraw the ration money and is giving, I think, 96 rupees if I'm not wrong per day, which doesn't amount to, is not enough. So when there was a hue and cry about this... When you talk about the Javans being able to fight, food is important. Food is extremely important. But when the veterans again stepped up and said that this is wrong, then the government passed an order saying that this is applicable only in peace areas rather than in the field. The armed forces personnel continue to draw rations. So that is one issue. But the majority of the armed forces are in peace areas. Well, I am not in a position to say where the bought percentage is because I don't have the data right with me. But suffice to say that there are many, many other issues also. This is just one. Degradation, contourment road, NFU, OROP, there are a series of that. On one hand, the BJP and the government claim to be nationalistic and for the armed forces on the other hand these things keep on mounting. So the essential issue is to claim the credit but not to address the problems. Well, on that note, and hope that some of the issues you have addressed will be, some of the issues that you talked about will be addressed. And we hope the Indian people at least will listen to what you are saying. Thank you very much. Thank you very much. Thank you very much for having me. Thank you for being with us. And hope that we see you again on this and other issues. This is all the time we have for NewsClick. Thank you very much for watching NewsClick. Do come and visit our website as well.


Good morning, everyone. This is the July 15th meeting of the elementary school building committee. And seeing that we have a forum, I'm going to call the meeting to order at 831. And my first order of business is to make sure everyone can hear and be heard. So I just wanted to let people know that the legislature has voted. But it has to go to the governor to allow us to continue to meet by zoom if we want to continue. But we're in this one day limbo land where our town attorney determined that because we posted it on Tuesday we can't we didn't have time to tell the public that they would have in person under our old rules to to a physical site so that we could conduct this meeting virtually as we are now doing. So I will do as we've done in the past just making sure everyone can hear and be heard by calling out the names of the committee members. Paul. Here. Tammy. Here. Sean. Here. Ben. Unmute again, Ben, just let make sure we can hear you. We're not hearing you. I'll go to the next one Rupert. Allison. Here. Great. Jonathan. Here. Phoebe. Hello. Hi, and Ben, let's see if you've got your audio set up. Yeah. And Rupert, I didn't hear Rupert respond. So I'm seeing a Sean, I think Mary also is raising her hand and she, she is from answer and Margaret, you wanted to bring her into the meeting. Is that correct? Yes, and also Bob Stevens should be with us. I see Bob. Okay. And there's Mary. Great. Okay. So we want, we have one more committee member who said she would be here virtually. And that is Alicia. So when she appears, I'll call on her, but I am going to turn the meeting over to answer who will introduce what we're doing today. And we have two people that are joining us. So Margaret, it's your on. Um, just briefly, I know you all have met Bob before who is always backing me up. But I also wanted to introduce Mary Bolso who is going to be actually in my role, leading the project when we're in construction. Mary is a long time partner in crime and lives in. Mary, why don't you say a few words about yourself? Yeah, I live in Central Mass and I'm currently working out that way in another project. So it's convenient and timing. I've been an owner's project manager for over 10 years. Before that I was always been on the trade. So looking forward to this. So what I'm going to do is just quickly put up the agenda. And then we'll move on. So here, can everybody see that? Or can someone see it? Yeah, I can see it. So the first thing we're going to look at is design target dates, which Dennis co has developed. Kathy set them out, I think with the agenda. But I'll pull them up. And the meeting schedule work. And then most of the meeting is going to be devoted to a discussion of the decision that the kitty mini needs to make between design bid build and construction manager at risk. As a method of project delivery. We're going to talk a little bit about dates for school visits and if we have time we're going to talk about that. What Dennis go is recommending for the sustainability rating system for the project, and we have one invoice to look at at the end so take that down.  So many things up in my desktop. Here we go. I'll make this little bigger. So, Donna and Tim, do you want to. And Rick, I think is here as well. Do you want to walk us through this. Let's go over to Tim. This list is basically the milestones of decisions that we have to hit, you know, to get to where we want to be in November when we're putting the pricing set together. So, we're looking at big picture items first overall site plan, the mechanical system, you know, in general air source first ground source. And toward the front end, we're doing a lot of scheduling, making sure that the plan is working. And then we get into a finer grain of detail with particular meetings that being said, just as an overall this is milestones broad brush. We'd like to have a little bit of a discussion about how we achieve these. These are all currently full committee meetings every two weeks. And this is a lot to get through. In large, full building committee meetings. So there's a discussion that has to be had about a working group or smaller affinity groups and what the composition and schedule for those meetings would be particularly for design. Various aspects of design. Obviously planned layout will be discussed primarily and initially with Mike and the school department. But there may be people on the committee or even soon aren't necessarily on the committee that have an affinity for exterior design. Various aspects of the project. So we have to have a discussion of how we set those groups up and what the parameters are and how they can meet and how we can move through this. So, I just scroll down to the end because one of the challenges of doing a project that starts in the summer where it seems like it's forever until you get finished is remembering that you're sort of trying to wrap up the project through the holidays. So you can see here. I think a really important milestone to be aware of is that the cost estimating is proposed to be done by the end of October. And then we're sort of actually the documents that are going to the cost estimators the estimators are working in November on the estimates. The committee sees them in early December. And then the schematic design submission. We're tentatively saying is midnight mid December. We actually don't know what the MSBA submittal date is because they have not yet published their January meeting calendar. I think are good educated guests. And then there would be a vote in early January to submit the schematic design. So those end dates are a little subject to change based on the MSBA calendar. But that's kind of the overall arc of the process. Does anybody have any questions about that. Sean, Sean's hands is up. Yeah, so a couple of questions. I didn't see on there when we'll actually decide on the construction delivery option is that That's a great question. We could you could decide today. Based on the presentation. I think that would be a good idea at the latest to decide at the next meeting. Okay, I think we were going to not do anything major today because of the limbo period we're in. And then a couple other questions. When, when will we have a good sort of estimate of the town share that we feel comfortable sharing. I see the vote in December, or the cost estimate in December and I think the council is thinking about their vote being in December. But we're going to need to have information ahead of time prior to that to share with the public and to do the outreach and all that so what date do you think is the earliest we would have that. I would say, I've actually done a draft of it. I haven't shared it yet. It needs to be updated with the design bid build numbers that the estimates were based as you all might remember on CM so I will need to update them with design numbers if we go in that direction but as you know I could do that now I just need to go back to Pete Timothy, didn't go to him I'll need to go back to them, and kind of get, because I think he's based he based his direct labor numbers on the CM option and then calculate it as a lump sum, what the savings would be so that's with that with that piece of data. Maybe after we, if we voted the next meeting on the delivery option then I don't want to rush it I'm just saying if we have a few months before that vote that would be great. And then the last thing is so you know if we want to discuss ways to based on cost estimates are based on the information from the design if we want to discuss ways to potentially reduce the overall cost of the project. In terms of maybe bid alternates or things like that that we would go forward with. When would that type of discussion happen. I'm going to ask the Dinesco team for their thoughts about that. And I bring it up because we're having a similar discussion with our with our library project right now we're everyone knows you know construction costs are really high. And so, you know, I think it's a good conversation for us to have at some point is just, you know, are there ways where we can, you know, decisions we can make or we can at least give ourselves the option. When we get the bids to reduce costs. Yeah, and I think you know a lot of the conversation, as we refine the design those conversations will come up right so some of it could be. Discussed as materials are selected as the design. Kind of develops so those convert we don't like to say here is your product and oh by the way, here are ways to do what we can look at options as we go through it Sean and then identify. What's most important kind of do, you know, a list of we don't like alternates is a better word than value engineering. And then the other consideration is, okay, how does this impact the design, right, so we'll say okay well this we can do and carry an alternate until bid day, and this we really need to make a decision before that date because it impacts xyz but we'll can, we'll have those conversations with you throughout schematic design. Um, you know, can I can I also just add. This may seem counterintuitive, but I think that you, you want to really nail the scope of the project for the schematic design process. The project has a long way to go after schematic design in ways that impact the cost of the project. So I just want to make sure everybody understands like when we get to the end of schematic design and we're submitting this. Submission is about getting to an agreement about cost with the MSBA right and to have a number on which to base a debt exclusion. It does not mean that the process of looking for cost savings is going to stop. And I will also say the market's been so volatile. I think there's going to be an ongoing discussion about like something that is going to be a price x in December could be higher or lower six or eight months later. So it, I just want to make sure everybody understands that when we get to the end of schematic design we're not done with that conversation. You should think of the schematic design piece as setting the basis of the funding agreement. Okay so I see Kathy's hands up. I'm going to do a follow up on Sean's but also link it to this notion of working groups that Tim just did. I understand the process the Mike was going to identify within the school staff Tammy Allison and whomever. So, we're at a point of saying, what do these rooms really look like, what does the inside of the building look like what does the outside of the building look like you know making some choices, all of which has to do with both the look and feel of the building but also the cost of the building. We're going to be doing materials decisions and we're going to be doing three site visits, which will let us look at some schools that have been built recently, and I've started, I don't know how many other people doing it it's like this, an obsession with this project but I'm at Amherst College and I've started taking pictures because they've, they've done a bunch of new buildings recently and going this one is different from that, and try to figure out is that metal on the outside is that brick what is, you know, on the outside of the building and I hate it I like it, but trying to just think through, we have a lot of choices. So, my, my question with that is, if some but not all of the committee, as we are, and I want to make sure Alicia is here so I want to make sure she can hear she has joined us Margaret for your notes. Thank you. But if some but not all of us want to be either a fly on the wall, as those discussions are happening because we don't know enough on what does the art room look like or the music room, you know, on placement and refinement, or active. And, and we want to involve more of the people who work in the buildings, the staff. When do we have to do what to, if it's just school staff working with Mike, we don't have to formally set up a meeting. We try to do something that's a voting group, we have to set it up more officially so that's, I just want to, because it seems to me, it needs to start now, July and August and September by that schedule is when all of this, these kinds of decisions will be made so I just wanted to sense Tim and Donna and I'm thinking that means you come out to Amherst, and you know are literally like this. I'll stop talking but it shows my layperson Jonathan for the architect. This is what this kind of brick would look like you don't have to do this kind of brick you could do that for the outside of the building. And we'll get into windows and daylighting and, and other kinds of things but when, when are you going to be wanting an active group to meet with to go through those decisions. Well, I mean, some of the things that you just mentioned like this brick versus that brick is a couple meetings down the road but the very within two weeks, we are going to start moving pieces around on the site and look to be looking for guidance talking about the site of the plan and for instance that this big picture moves in terms of the plan site plan and we'll want way in so I mean honestly as soon as we can schedule it if it was around or instead of or on the same day as the meeting of the 29th, we will have a lot to talk about then we need to get moving. I just on that have you, Mike was not able to be with us today but have you been in contact with Mike and trying to set something up with where or Tammy and Allison you know where where people are that and Rupert and Ben you know where people are the summer you know to see getting people in a room together. We haven't. I think Mike was away. I'm not sure but I mean we can certainly take a poll and make sure that he has his team. I think Ben would definitely or or Rupert would definitely also want to be involved to because they have a big role in this as well but he recognizes probably the worst time a year truly to try to move this forward so we can reach out to him and and make sure I think he's hopefully given some thought on who he would like involved we're actually moving into the weeds here but the one of the very first tasks which will be important is to organize the classrooms or the spaces all the rooms in the building and so we really would look to the experts that are in those spaces. And you have two schools, right merging so I, we just have to figure out for example, art, right, and bringing those art teachers into the room together, and even if it's just for an hour to talk about just specifically their area of expertise. And then there'd be other spaces that we would want away special ed will be an important consideration because they have many spaces. PE outdoor learning all of that so we'll put a list together for Mike and then make sure we can do that, you know get it to him early next week so he can see who we're looking to bring to the table. That would be helpful. We've been talking about it and obviously the principles would be great too. And then with the committee. You've mentioned there's a large share of the people you've mentioned on our committee, but we also have others on the committee so to the extent. If one of us wanted to be at least hearing those discussions would you show us the schedule of when you're meeting talking about what, and then for, and, and Paul had said earlier that if we try to set up anything as a working group. If it isn't just advising and working with the superintendent, then we need to post it we had needed. Am I right Paul that there need to be appointments to it so even if we're just saying it's ad hoc and that it's just for this three month time period, we would have to set something up so it's just for a way to, to, to be, to allow participation and, and, and you don't the meetings with Mike and staff don't have to be posted publicly with zoom or whatever we could make and we could bring the materials back to the committee. Yeah, you know, so it would be public so I'm, I'm just looking for you all to give us that kind of schedule. So that, and, you know, exterior the building. There's going to be a lot of interest on. Daylighting on you know the sustainability materials but also just the, the, the, the, we've already started having them, you've told us amount of insulation in the building and what's on the outside of the building to the extent that helps with heat retention or keeping heat out of the building in the summertime so that's what I was seeing at Amherst College they had these like little shelves around the windows that I think were to prevent glare. So, so there may be some of us that are more able to think through that than the inside of the building so just if we had some schedule to react to. I'm not talking because I'm seeing Jonathan's nodding his head periodically so just on a when and how the full committee. Those of us who want to engage and Rupert's up.  And, and their input as to reconfirming the layout of the building and then what their spaces are going to look like or be designed to that's one conversation, the, the all everything you just said about the exterior the windows the lighting, the insulation, those are probably more for different subgroups than than for Mike and his team. Right. So the look of the building really it would be great to get a team that is interested in the exterior design. Right, maybe, maybe there's some people that are more interested in the exterior design and leaving it to the occupants for the interior design or something. The net zero group there may be people on that net zero subcommittee that may want to weigh in on the insulation and, and that type of thing day lighting. So we'll we'll articulate, you know, the types of conversations and I think you will have hopefully a wide range of topics that different people can pick and choose what's important to them, or what their experts and So I'm going to stand this up so one question would be if we, we called it the net zeros subcommittee if we called it the sustainability just yeah we get the name and it's a subgroup of ours, Paul, if we said we want to expand that we could. We made we voted to set that up Paul we can set that up if it's a subgroup of us correct. So if others who aren't on that now would like to be part of it, you know they can, we can do that on the 29 when we meet again two weeks from now to make that committee be this committee is now. We can call it the exterior of the building to whatever we need. So it's a subgroup of this committee correct Paul. I'm just looking at Paul's. Yes, that's true. And so this, this body can create subcommittees and other you know, you know, like the Jones library has an outreach subcommittee they have a design subcommittee. There's different subcommittee so this group has already done the sustainability subgroup. So we could have a different subgroup that looks at different aspects of it as well. Paul, we couldn't have formally have someone who's not on the committee on it. No, it should be a sub kit subset of this group. Yeah. And those meetings need to be posted. Correct. Correct. For every, for every additional subcommittee you make there's there's administrative work that goes with it. What I was thinking is we could expand the title of the subcommittee we have, if it's since the exterior of the building is partly about sustainability. No, I totally agree with that strategy. Okay. Okay, Rupert, sorry to talk so long. There. Now I'm unmuted. No, that's fine. It's all, it's all important. I'm concerned that we're not, I'm not seeing space and time in the schedule to try to deal with what I think is the, the thorniest issue which is the transportation and traffic and site access. And I'm very concerned that we're going to just sort of ignore that until it's too late to make any meaningful improvements or changes because the rest design will proceed without it. I think it would be irresponsible for us, or for anyone for that matter to suggest that those issues will resolve themselves or that we can just ignore them. I think they're extremely important for safety. I think some of the impacts for example if it takes a very long time for school buses to get into and out of the school building site. There's an impact on scheduling for the middle and high school because of the way the bus runs work. All of these things need to be considered and I urge us to try to resolve these as soon as possible. Yeah, we're in agreement. Yep, we, we actually, that is, again, another conversation that can occur simultaneously. And we're, we fully support everything you just said, Rupert. So I think we would need to work with Paul and Sean, because some of that is, it's off, off site, right, and, and how we address that but we're ready to get going on that as well. So, again, is that another subgroup, Paul and Sean or is that something the town wants to help us navigate. I think it would be a subgroup. I think it would, you know, we clearly want the town engineer to be part and parcel to this conversation along with Rupert who's going to have no the expertise from inside the site. And then we have the, and I think just working through the staff level and then bring to this committee, sort of what some options are working with the designers as well. I think what Rupert is asking is the, when we looked at the list of the agenda, the word traffic wasn't on it and Rupert it was tentatively on it for today, but I knew that the discussion with Paul hadn't happened yet. So I think we need to put it on the agenda so that it's, whether it's the 29th or that first meeting in August, we have a target date Paul so that the discussions have happened and you can bring it to the committee. So, I can talk to you afterwards on what what is feasible. Yeah, correct. Yeah, I just just to set and manage expectations I think that to bring something forward to the committee that we would not be prepared by July 29 to bring anything but but it will occur simultaneously to all these other conversations because we need to understand how the traffic informs the site flow and everything else so so they are part parcel to all of this. And it could just be updates to right so if we don't have a recommendation we can say we've been working on this and we're looking at two options just just to keep everyone informed. I think a lot of these subgroups or sub conversations are going to be pretty fluid and we're going to want to study them for one to two months we don't want to rush but we can be reporting back and saying this is what you know we've achieved and this is the direction we're going is everyone good without having to make a final decision in two weeks. Okay, so we can have we can try to do that behind this, you know with Paul Rupert and then figure out what what the data is any options and discussion can be brought back to the committee. And maybe what I, maybe what I can do is I can take the initiative to organize that on our end and then get back to Kathy on timing. Any other Donna your hand was up with that. It was it was just just going back to I don't know if it was Rupert or Ben regarding, or I think we're Sean regarding the alternates MSBA does require at schematic design and also at every other submission to have a list of what they call value engineering. And so it really is sort of our alternate list to say, okay, have you thought about, we want you to continue to have a list of what they call value engineering which is maybe a selection of a particular item that might cost less or you might it be a process of something that you may do differently. That may influence the cost. And so MSBA wants us to keep this running tally, usually because as you know the market, you know, may spike or go down that you have alternatives to consider as as you work through the design as Margaret said so I wouldn't use the word value engineering because that's such a negative connotation but we will keep this running tally throughout the design process. And it will be part of this mission and everyone will get to weigh in on it right so instead of doing the X tier we're going to use more ground face CMU or something because it's less expensive or whatever so we'll we'll have options for those. Okay, I'm watching the time. Okay anything else on this topic. And from what we know just everyone should know is the we got word that the legislature has allowed zoom meetings to continue. So we will be able to continue to use this option if, unless we want to meet in person at some point so I'm turning it I think the next is you Margaret is that correct. All right, so we're going to toggle to this discussion of design bed build versus CM at risk so I set the slides out last night. If you need to look at them they should be in your inbox. This is a, it's a, this is complex issue. But I think, you know, the bottom line just before we get started is that there's, there's a general perception that design bed build is less expensive than construction management at risk for a bunch of reasons I ran a lot of different opinions in the room about this. But I think generally the numbers bear out that that's the case and I know that the cost of that project is a hot topic. Here, what I'm going to try to sort of outline in this process is that there are, there are some risks associated to this project that we need to design bed build works well for, you know, really straightforward simple projects it's it's a bad idea. If you're, you know, doing some of the other options we looked at where you're doing an ad rena you really want to have a construction manager. So there's much to recommend design bed build for this project because the way to nisco has approached this we essentially have a construction site next to an operating school but there's a, you know, there's a dividing line between them. The complexity here really comes around the net zero piece and the ground source and the geothermal system, and it's integration with the building so with that being said I'm going to share this. I'm going to go through a couple of couple of slides at a time and then check and see if hands are up so one second having trouble sharing this. Sorry I've lost the screen that's going to let me share. It's just going to take me a minute to figure this out. Sorry I've lost my share button so I'm going to. Do you do you want, I've got it available to share a few. Yeah, I could do it too. Well, yeah there's.  Go ahead Kathy and do it. No, if you've got it shown to do it. I'll have to exit. I don't have it open as a screen is that I'm large enough. Yeah, that's totally fine. I've got it at a bigger scale on my screen so let's go to the next. The next slide. So, you know just in terms of the lingo. So in Massachusetts there's two ways to do what they call project delivery. One is 149 which is also called design build build and one is 149 a as a reminder. We did the PSR estimates. The estimates for design bid build was a little over 97 million for design bid build and about 106 million for a CM at rest. Now, you know there's both of our estimators who worked on this are folks who came out of the design bid build background and they I think have a bit of a bias towards design bid build. But in the following slides I'm going to talk a little bit about the real differences there are so Sean how about the next slide then. Margaret I just want to confirm those numbers those were project costs correct. Those are the project costs. Exactly. So, so to understand what's in the mix here. There's three components here and which are represented by the color so I took to do this chart I took the Fort River estimate. Pete Timothy's estimate, and I took all of the what's called file sub bids, which are the orange, which are actually bid independent of either a general contractor or a CM at rest. So is what's called trade bids, which are bid in the case of a general contractor their bid directly to the general contractor. And actually any other case bid directly to the contractor and then the 11% is the cost of the general contractor, or in this case it was using the CM. So, next slide. So, there are. This is just a little bit of an explanation of, you know what the difference is so with design bid build. You're essentially putting the thing out to bed and you are getting back a cost so it's a sort of single moment in time the way it works as you actually did the file sub bids first and then the general contractor provides a bid for the entire project folding in the appropriate filed sub bids. Next slide. So in a CM at risk you're actually hiring someone to work with the project team. We definitely recommend I know Janisco agrees that it be part of be part of schematic design. Then they really have ownership of what has gone to the MSBA and what is the basis of the funding agreement. Next slide. So, there's a lot of people disagree with about this but I tried to list here what is an agreement so it's the traditional chapter 149 design build it's the traditional method of building a project. The builders called a general contractor it's design is finished then bid file sub bids come first, and then the bid for the entire project. The selection is bid or price based the contract value is called a lump sum, and the contract is what's called a closed book, because the contractor doesn't share information about the bids with the owner. Next slide. So construction management at risk. The builder is called a construction manager the selection is qualifications and cost based you actually to do this you set up a committee would be a subset of this committee to select the CM and you first advertise and take in qualifications. And then you short list three to five firms typically to bid on their general conditions if you think back to the, the pie chart to bid on the gray part of the cost. If the contractor participates in pre qualifying subcontractors they would be pre qualified in any case but they're a participant in that process. It's a little easier to do early bid packages to that are, and to integrate them. It's called when you sign the contract is what's called a guaranteed maximum price, and it is an open book so you see not what's in the felt sub bids but the general contractors costs as well as the trade bid costs are sort of viewed by the owner and there's an opportunity to comment on them and be engaged in that. Next slide. Um, these are the things that are usually taken into consideration when making this decision. How complicated it is I mentioned at the beginning you know the complexity here is definitely around the net zero piece, but budget designed to build is generally considered cheaper construction quality. It's important to understand that the general contractor, who is a low bidder will provide typically less oversight during construction than a CM, because it's really, it's part of how they are getting to the most competitive cost. Well, there is, as I mentioned a little bit more flexibility for early packages but it's not impossible to do early packages with design been built. In fact, I think to nisco has quite a bit of experience with this. The risk is tied to the complexity. So it's kind of about the net zero owners expertise design build bill is just much more straightforward to administer. The owner's level of effort if you're going to do a construction management project you do need to set up a committee that allows you to do the procurement of the construction manager and that that process does take about three months typically. So next slide. The pros and cons. This is starting to be a little bit repetitive of the earlier slides but the pro of design build build is it's definitely simpler. And it does typically produce a lower base contract cost. The cons are it's more linear so you can't. It's hard to do for instance. Really complicated early packages using this process. If it's over the estimate, it may require you to read that it. There is an increased likelihood maybe probability is not the right word of dispute some claims it definitely puts more pressure on the designer to have a really tight set of documents. And I know Dennis goes good at that. There's no builder input on the design and the full cost tends to not be realized so completion when you see what the changing orders were next slide. These are the pros and cons of construction management again this is getting a bit repetitive. I thought it was good to summarize them. Why don't we go to the next slide, which is about finding the tipping point so there's several slides here that this one and the next one actually pulled from an associated general contractor presentation at the AGC. They are big proponents of Sam at risk many of their members are contractors who like to do Sam at risk so I always look at what they're presenting for bias but I think these two statements are correct, and that it's a kind of, you know finding the tipping point and evaluating your project there's no perfect way to do this. The next slide, which is, again, it's an AGC slide, and it has, you know, again perhaps some bias but into it does. I think as a diagram does explain, you know really well how these numbers are different. And, for instance, I want to really focus on this purple piece in the middle. One of the biggest differences here is that the non so the file sub bids you can imagine are basically they get they get bit the same those numbers are probably going to be relatively similar, whether it's a CM project or a design build project, but on this in this purple zone the non trade contractors and and they're, I went by the side a little fast, they're big numbers in the project, but probably only about 30% of the cost in total. It's concrete, it's steel, it's site work. Those get bid. When a general contractor situation they get been directly to the general contractor and the CM to the CM but they're, it's open books so the owner gets to see them. And there's, I think no question that there is, there tends to be a difference there in terms of cost that in the last competitive CM world, where the CMs are have a bit of more of an opportunity to pick. You know who they're using those numbers tend to be bigger. And then on the trade bids. I think these numbers are, you know, pretty close. The CM project has embedded in the contract what's called a CM contingency, which is can only be used with owner approval. And that is then outside of that, in either case, there's a change order number that is controlled by the owner. So, you know, the, the question mark is because there's always a discretionary, the use of the CM contingency is discretionary to the owner and the change orders are really, you know, subject to a lot of discussion, and also sometimes not necessarily agreement. So this is the piece that you spend, you really want to keep this number down during construction. But it is can be mitigated in the CM piece, CM side by the use of CM contingency. So next slide. Just to sorry I'm going through these slides all at once without stopping because I can't actually see you all right now. I'm going to stop at the end and look at these. I put in here at the end, just a reminder about, for instance, how Wildwood, the Wildwood project which, which did propose to use a CM and a CM was selected for the project how what that project looked like and you can see, it was, you know, it was really a different project it wasn't for instance that zero it wasn't three stories. It had a pretty big footprint and what they did was they basically built the new building right next to the existing building, and then demolish the building. So they went. And that overall duration was a little under three years. And on the next slide, Sean, if you can go to that. This is our project, where you can see, you know, because of the larger site. There's just more ability for the construction and the school to operate in parallel and at you know as you all know it was that was a key issue. In the choice of this option. Next slide. So, I think I want to actually come back to this and go to the next slide. I, I thought it would be helpful to talk a little bit about, or for you all to see at least. What's going on now so I yesterday I took all the current projects so not the projects the MSBA projects that have been closed out, but the ones that are still kind of on their books as open projects and I made a list of them. So on the left or the design build projects and on the right are the CM projects. You know I think what's interesting about this list is you can see, there's very little overlap between who is doing the CM projects which is in the column on the far right. And the design bid bill project so one point of overlap is Fontaine brothers who were actually the selected CM for the Wildwood project, and they actually operate in both, both project types, and are very likely to be interested in this project. Or unless whatever, but the design bid build it's a smaller list of contractors. There has not been a net zero project done as design bid build at this time which is probably going to change. And the other thing I think that's really interesting is that if you look at the design bid build.  So what that means is those are projects in early stages where they have decided they're going design bid build, but they have not yet selected. And I think that's really interesting because it suggests that there is a trend right now towards design bid build in the entire MSBA portfolio of projects. So, again, I'm struggling with trying to get my screen to be the right size and I think I'm gonna what I'm actually going to do is leave the meeting and come back in because I just cannot seem to get the screen to be bigger. But let me, let me do that and I'll be right back okay. Nathan, you want to ask a question. I just wanted to note that, unfortunately, and I'm glad we're not making decisions today. Unfortunately, I have a hard stop in about 10 or 15 minutes, because I have a work obligation I could not move. Since you have to leave, do you, as Margaret is trying to pull back up her screen. Do you want to make any comments from your perspective on this, so that we don't miss that. Yeah. I think Margaret was just kind of getting to the, that point to kind of understand what the trend is at the moment. You know, certainly when, when I would expect that when, when things are getting, there was a lot of inflation in the construction market that there would be a tendency to try to capture that that lower initial cost that you get through design bid build. And I'm just curious as if Margaret has any sense or or Dennis by the sense of, of communities pursuing the kind of net zero piece, but also, because the net zero pieces one thing that may tend to tend to suggest the CM approach. I also wonder if, if having the designer and the designer be a construction manager in soon, you know, participating in the schematic part, and the schematic design and the, and the ongoing involvement through construction drawings or documents. Does that give us the ability to control cost in any way better. You know, from kind of a from a practical perspective. We're in a, we're in a construction market that is unusual that it's certainly outside of my personal experience and probably outside the personal experience of all the, all the folks who have that experience. I don't know, that's just some of the things I'm thinking about. So Margaret, I don't know what you heard but Jonathan has a hard stop so I just was encouraging him to, I mean he's leaving us in about eight minutes or seven minutes so. So he had that the two questions on. Did you hear both of his questions. Yeah, I didn't hear the first one I heard the second one. I'm just curious if, and I probably didn't articulate this very well but do you have any sense of whether or not in that list of CM projects, there are those containing the any net zero school. Oh yeah, oh yeah. Oh yeah, there, there are several. Do we think anyone is currently trying to do net zero design bid bill. I'm sure we will as an industry as a, as a state. I don't, I'm curious if, are we going to be the trailblazer. Yeah, we will be the trailblazer. Okay. Yeah, actually I think, I think during the. So if we talk about net zero, right, I think, I think maybe if we just step back a bit. Is it that's challenging or more complicated net zero than traditional building that isn't trying to achieve net zero right. A lot of it is just making sure that your UI is really low. And that that's on the designer, right really more than anything else is making sure and and the owner as far as usage but. That's on the designer on making sure that your UI is really low and then, and then really what's your path to achieving that zero so for for us and I'll let Rick or Tim also chime in for us. You know having the PVs as part of the project. But again, we can talk about whether it's it will be part of the project but but do you bid that separately. There may be grants and other things that we may want to take advantage of and not do it through the GC or the CM. And then the other component really would be the geothermal aspect of it. Other than that, it truly is really and coming upon the designer to make sure that the building has the right insulation and has the right window wall ratio it has like all of those things so I don't know I know Tim is on a building committee ricks on a building committee. I can say that the elementary school that I'm in the building committee for it is designed to build. There is geothermal, it is net zero ready, but they are not going to own the PV. So, to take that money off of the project budget. They couldn't call it net zero so all of the components are there and will be assembled all under the contract of but they're all there as we're pretty confident that for that particular project. 149 is the way to go. Is that project all new or so is that on a. It's an all new building on a site with a pride, with an existing school that is being demolished as an early big package. Tim, what, who's the contractor. It has not been big yet it's swamps. Oh yeah, they had my school. So, you know I think this is really interesting to me. I mean I kind of, I agree with Donna. To me the complexity is the geothermal. Really, I mean I think they're the issue of the EU I is it's in a design build build situation it's going to put more pressure on the designer. And our clerk to make sure that it is being that the building envelope is being built built correctly, then you might have in a CM situation, but it's a geothermal piece I think and I don't. I think I have some approaches to how we would manage this I'm, I'm not recommending. CM, I don't think it's appropriate to recommend CM for this reason only I just want to make sure that you understand that that's where the complexity is, and that's what's different about this project is that there has. I'd like to add also though but the geothermal component. Much of it in the equipment that's connected to it is a trade contract or file submit anyway. Yeah, the relative handful of geotechnical contractors that either a CM or a DBB general contractor would have to avail themselves to are relatively the same. So, the other projects complex, and frankly there are CMs that do a poor job with complex projects and there are general contractors that do a good job with complex projects so it's kind of hard to pin one on a team type. We've had, I've had CMs do a great job all the way through with neat lead reporting and sustainability, and others that approach it more like a general contractor used to. So it's really some and sometimes you can't tell until they're on on the team and doing it. Yeah, agree. Sean. Okay, Sean. Yeah, so one other reason why the previous building committee chose CM was MSBA offered additional reimbursement at that time. And it seems like they don't do that anymore and is there any insight why they stopped offering that it was an extra full percentage point which again was sort of attractive to the committee and and made the, you know, offset the additional cost to some extent. Any idea why they pulled that out. Well, I think it was for two reasons. First of all the MSBA doesn't, they, they would prefer that everything be designed to build because they feel as though that is generally a lower contract price. And I think also, as you could see, it's not districts don't need it to have it as an incentive anymore a lot of districts feel more comfortable with it. So I think it was for both of those reasons. Yeah, I think just just to add to that. CM, you know, just became enacted until on 20 2004. And there was a lot of conversation about really in the end there's savings and it costs less because of contingent anyway. And MSBA has said that they're not seeing the cost savings that everyone talked about based on their completed projects and so, as Margaret said that 1% was an incentive originally thinking that it was still going to save money. But in the end, the, the answer is there really isn't. There really isn't much savings or any savings and the change orders are the change orders and I just, I just want to really make that clear so there is an error omission on the contract documents right if there's scope missed on the contract documents. There was a change order. So it would be a change order whether it was heartbeat, or if it was CM. So, I'm trying to think about good scope item, you know, but if we missed something on the drawings, which were not perfect, but the change order, if it wasn't on the drawings, they, the contractor or CM is, is rightfully entitled to that additional money. A lot of times what we find with the CMs is even though it's on the job. If the scope is on the drawings, the CM will say oh well we missed that. Oops, sorry, we're going to pull that from our CM contingency, where when it's a hard bid we can go back to the contractor and say no, it's right here. You own it, and they just have to pay for it. So, so there is a little difference. Build out there and that's actually, I mean that's the classic buyout CM contingency items, which are actually understandable. And I'm not saying this to try to torpedo CMR but in my role on a building committee on building committees with multiple CMR projects in my town, and also at the NISCO, what I'm finding myself arguing more and more. And what's a little more frustrated are the things that are on the drawings are in the specifications, and you find out that during the CMs buyout, the person they signed with deleted that from their scope. So it's, it's an item that in a, in a hard bid, if it's on the drawings and the specs you own it. But if it's not, then you're talking about, well okay well they said they weren't going to do that part and we're, we're arguing about who's fixing the floor cracks before the file sub bid resilient floor guy comes in and puts his floor down. And the other thing that you see him contingency money, you know my personal view is. Okay, it's, it's the CM's money does spend, as long as the owner agrees. I personally think of it as, it's the owner's money until they pay it out, because the owner gets everything back that's not spent. Yeah, and you know the other thing about Sam contingency, I do think, and we've run into this recently with projects where there was like a lot of, you know, what's I don't know what that game is with the, the cups and the ball and, and the kind of, they kind of done this like they took something out over here and forgot and then it's like oh we want that out of Sam contingency. We don't let them do that. Like, you know you own that you bought. But one thing that I think the CM contingency is really useful for is if you have to accelerate the project for some reason. So actually now that I'm back in the functioning able to see you all is everything else I just want to sort of pull up this one slide and talk about this briefly. Yeah, I agree that I don't screw this up again. Margaret Mary had her hand up as well. Well, while she's pulling it up I'll just mention yeah, Mary, I agree with a lot of what Rick said. I think either way we go, whether it's design build or CMR the important thing is to have strict qualifications when we do the pre call of the contractors and about subs. The only benefit that I've been seeing to see them are lately is the long lead times we're able to buy the materials while we're still designing because, you know lead times are just ridiculous right now. Yeah. I think that I totally agree. You know one of the things that we're seeing is that if you have a situation any of these situations where there are things which are likely to impact the schedule for the project because stuff isn't available. Or something needs to be accelerated the CM process does provide flexibility for that because you can, they can buy stuff on their own, and they can use the CM contingency to do to accelerate the schedule so if you were that wholeheartedly a project in Springfield, the CM bought the steel deck, because we had inkling that that was going to be a problem, and he bought the deck and told the people that this steel would normally carry that that they will be buying using this deck. So we're on the list for the deck. That said, both our CMR and our DBB projects are all hamstrung with electrical switch gear delivery, which is blind to the delivery method. And the basic way out of that is to buy it under 30B, like we've done with generators, if it's a DBB project. So, you could be hit with material delays, both on both ways that you really hate to say that COVID's giving people a lot of cover. You really can't argue about there's nothing to do with, but having the flexibility to accelerate work because they built something into the budget. That's a that's a is a benefit. But once you commit to spending money on additional slab placement so they could accelerate a portion of the job, and then the CM doesn't use doesn't take advantage of the $30,000 they spent for that and the stairs still don't come. That's a little frustrating. Mary. Yeah. Yes. So basically, that's a great option with 30B for the generators and things. We have no idea of what's going to be delayed next. Right now it's Dr. Lyon pipe, because all the pig iron comes from Poland. So you never know it used to be you knew the steel in the switch here now it's just a whole new ball game. Yeah, very unpredictable. So, that was a lot to go through. I hope that it answered some of the questions people have had about this. I don't. Kathy, I don't know whether you want to take I don't know if we've got a do we still have a quorum I think we have a quorum. I don't want to take a vote on this or move it to the next meeting. So we want to call and we're not going to take a vote on it Margaret because we're, we're in this. We're in a transition area on on can we meet entirely, you know, so. And so, and we're missing some people but I think if we, if people have time to think about it to come in. My understanding is from CMR we need to decide soon because of that long time timeline if we wanted to go CMR. So, if we're going to do that we got to make a decision on it but I think people should members should come back, having thought this through and Rupert's hand is up. We should all be asking any questions that we can think of right now to help you form that so Rupert. Thank you. I apologize if I missed this I had to take a phone call in terms of complexity. The concern that I have is less the geothermal though I understand that's got a lot of engineering involved but just dealing with the site and the groundwater and the drainage strikes me as something that has a lot of unknowns and a lot of complexity and may not be a filed Do you have any comments. So, I, you know, Donna and Rick, I, I think aims very you said had quite complicated site and is designed been billed is that right is that a good example to talk about. I think aims very Ruber, their hurled Wyman school as well that was a hard hard bid, and both of those had early site packages. It is our responsibility, whether it's DBB or or CM to have as much information as we possibly can on the site. So, our recommendation on this regardless is to. Do a lot of testing, we recognize its money but it's money well spent to be able to have a better understanding of what's going on underneath the ground, so that we can design to it and prepare for it. And a lot of times what we'll do is we will give a certain level of depth and say okay contractor you're responsible for removing X amount of feet of dirt, and that would be regardless of CM or hard bid. We saw the joke that we say it's, it's really called CM at risk and we we tend to say it's CM at very little risk because they're going to say well it's what you told us to do. And that's true, because that, you know where we're saying you own, you know the dirt to 10 feet below and you're going to excavate it and if it's. It has a material that you own it if it's loan or or soil that is not usable, you know you need to plan for that so it's it's really what is is as much information as we possibly can to know about an advance so that we can have a as good of an understanding of the scope that's required so the type of soil, how much needs to be removed, how far down do you need to go, and then how we count can we reuse it, does it have to be moved so. So Donna, can I say this in a really abbreviated way. If you're going to go design build build, you want to invest the money in the site exploration before you go to bed. So we would recommend that, regardless, especially on this site. And again the more information we know, even if it's a CM more informed we are so if you have a ceiling I'm just going to say 100 million. You know, we need to know how much that site's going to cost it's not going to help us for the CM to find out later, if we have earmarked all of the contingency money right so it really is in everyone's best interest to do as much to diligence on the site as possible. Yeah, that's the nugget. So I see Phoebe's hand is up. Yeah, thanks. I'm off the topic that we're talking about, but I just want to try to get a little bit more clarity in my own mind. So, regardless of whether we go, CM, or design bid build. If we, if we think there's a possibility for other funding methods, ie grants or something like that, that piece comes out of the scope of work for the CM or for the DBB contractor was I correct in hearing you say that. Okay. Now the only thing I mentioned Phoebe would be for the offsite traffic. Yeah. Okay, I thought you had said that for the solar. Alright. Well, for the solar, if there are grants and it makes sense, we could, we could do that as well. So what we do need to do is explore all of the grants that are available. And, you know, maximize those and part of the conversation is with MSBA and what can the town use for third party incentives or rebates that would not impact your share or MSBA shares part of the project. Okay. Thank you. And did you have something you want to say. No, it's just accidentally unmuted. So I'm looking at the time we have about 14 minutes left. And a couple of things we wanted to do so. We'll bring this back next at the next meeting. This issue to close the conversation. We do need to pick a date for the school visits. And I had five folks participate in the dill poll. So it, and it looks like the three dates that work for the most of them are the 26th of July, the 27th and August 1st. I know that Mike had a preference for the 27th, but I also didn't see either Allison or Tammy participate so Allison and Tammy if we, if it landed on the 27th, we might you be able to join I thought you have all the folks. You might be the most interested in seeing other schools, or maybe you have other commitments I just want to confirm. Margaret, just so you had three dates are viable 26 27 and first on. Yeah, Mike. And so people remember where it's three schools and we figured out that we can see all three on the one day, and Paul at one point and he can say what this said, we might be able to move the van so it wouldn't be everyone having to drive out there by themselves, or we can certainly carpool. So it's a question of the 26 27th and August 1st. I guess what I would say is the 27 would probably be the best date, however, in the midst of trying to see what I can move around for that. How about you. I know that August 1 would be the easiest but that doesn't mean I couldn't make something else work. Okay. Okay, so let me. I think Mike was also good for the first. Tammy with the, with the first. Okay, so then let's, let's go with the 27. And if other folks who are on the committee want to join we'll figure out what the capacity of the buses and will make will auction off seats so. All right. So what is left leave wanting to leave room for public comment I don't think we're going to get to the sustainability rating system today, but I do we just want to pull up Dennis goes most recent invoice, which we should look at and vote on. And then we would have a few minutes for public comment. So, here we go. Yes. I can so I think it means that everyone can. Okay, so I think just very quickly. So they're the amount they're billing for it right is right here at the 33 335. What that means is that this feasibility line item, which is getting us to the PSR is complete. There's no other invoicing as part of this. So, this is just a summary. This is where I sign and then they also have a. There's their summary invoice so that's it. It's kind of simple to look at if someone wants to make a motion. I think it's a motion that we approve the. What month invoice, the invoice, the. June 30, June 30 invoice. Second. And so I need to. Margaret, if you can take that down so I can see. So I'm going to do a roll call vote. Tammy. Yes. Yes. Rupert. Yes. Ben. Yes. Allison. Yes. Paul. Yes. Phoebe. Yes. Alicia. Yes. And Kathy is a yes. So it is anonymous with three absent. Margaret, when you tell me the boats. I'm sorry. I forgot to ask one question, Donna, when you said you do as much early as possible on exploration on the site.  I'll ask as a question. Are you going to be. With the conservation commission going out and doing. Redoing the wetland mapping. A flat, a flagging, whatever we call it. So to. And then. And with that, do you also. Part of the. The. Site design. Was moving a wetland doing an exchange of. Well, that all be happening this summer. So it's a kind of a question of. Do we. At the point. Through schematic design that would have to be signed off on before we could be saying now we can build just the way you're playing. So just what's the timing on that. Yeah. Well. The conservation commission process is, is long. And so the first part. Is to, you know, do. An and rad, which really is determining the applicability of the scope. And so we'll be having initial conversations with them, making sure. As we move along the process that. They're in agreement that we, we understand what all the boundaries are, not just for wetlands, but also the. The flood prone area and all of that. Conservation commission will typically not. Vote to approve our site design. Until much later in the process. Because they, we have to have our site. Designed enough for them to agree to. But in concept, we would be saying, okay, here's what we're thinking of doing. Are we in agreement, making sure that. That we have their buy in. Before we get too far down the process, but they will issue an order of, they'll approve. The site. And issue an order of conditions much later in the process, typically around 60%. CDs. But we do want their buy in now to understand a lot of things. And we do want their buy in now to understand a lot of the initial. Assumptions that we're making and that. They're in agreement with. Whether it's moving wetlands or, or replicating wetlands. And the purpose of the anrad, which is. Ridiculous acronym for. Abbreviated notice of resource area of delimitation is basically just to get an agreement about where the boundary is. That's why you do it. So all the initial testing, Kathy, more would be, so we're going to do that. There's going to be a lot of. Activities that are going to occur simultaneously. But we definitely are going to want to. Do a lot more. Geotechnical explorations. And understanding the borings and, and all of that. And then the other thing is, if we do go with. Geothermal ground source. The other component there would be to get a test well. And the ground as soon as possible as well. So, so that too would occur. Simultaneously. Okay. Thank you. I didn't, I just was. So that that's happening behind the scenes. Okay. So you'll be bringing that information to us. Great. Okay. And we will, you know, when we do go before conservation commission, whether it's preliminary or otherwise we do you, you, the town or the building committee are the proponent.  Present at those meetings. Okay. Thank you. You're welcome. Does anyone have any other comments, questions? Just so that to review that schedule, Sean has his hand up. We're meeting again in two weeks, that's the 29th of July. And you've got the tentative agenda in terms of pieces, but that is the first draft. So we will get be getting an agenda out, Sean. My recollection from going for the lead certification was that there were some costs associated with it. And I'm just wondering if we're building a net zero building and all the requirements that go along with our bylaw, does it still make sense to pursue the lead certification. And if there's still additional reimbursement from MSBA for it. So, when you say additional expense first let me just say, whether it's lead or chips which we didn't get to today. It is a requirement by MSBA and MSBA is expecting any project to at minimum be certified at one for one of those. To get the additional reimbursement from MSBA. Right now, all they ask is that your 20% energy savings over code they don't care if you're certified or platinum. If I usually does an example, they don't care they they their focus is more on energy conservation. As far as cost is concerned the actual cost for you being lead certified, and then for it to be verified is really not a lot of money as far as what what you pay lead or or New England chips. It's everything that goes into it which is where the real cost is. Thank you. And Donna there's it's a 2% we get by it. So it's real money shown when you were asking that money is still in the MSBA form. Yeah, I get that I'm, it seems like we're going beyond that so again that's where that question.  And as long as you achieve the energy savings you get the 2% because and we'll get into the whole. What, what does lead really mean some some projects just physically cannot get there because of the location of the site. So, yeah, it's, there's more to it than, than what seems intuitive, believe it or not. Okay, so I'm going to, if there are no other comments, I'm going to open it for public comments, and, and also to remind everyone that we will get a more a better understanding of what leads is what tips is and issues like is on the agenda for 2 weeks from now. So, public comments, if anyone would like to make a comment, please raise your hand. I've brought Maria Kapikian. Okay. Thank you. Quick question for Donna at the net zero meeting, you had mentioned that there's this up to even an eight week scheduling delay to do the test well but I want to confirm that you are definitely planning on doing the test well for geothermal. This summer, regardless of any other decisions that that is in the works. And the other thing is to make a comment on any meetings or subgroup meetings that might happen about design, I'd like to encourage the committee to have all of those meetings open to members of the public. There's a lot of educators in town that don't teach at either Fort River or Wildwood might not even teach at other schools in our district, but teach elsewhere and there's a lot of other folks that might have ideas for design that could be valuable to hear. It's kind of like, you know, you don't know what you don't know. So, I would like to encourage you to invite people into share ideas and to give some reflections about things that you might choose to do with design and to make sure that you have a broad perspective available to you. Thank you. Thank you, Maria. I have to get off to another meeting. Okay, so I think I'm not seeing any other public comments. So I think we can adjourn the meeting at if I'm not seeing any hand other hands up just double checking with my new eyes. I don't see any hands up. I don't see any. So it is 10 o'clock. I as chair I'm going to adjourn the meeting and I want to remind people, I'll send everybody links, but all the net zero information that we've been seeing is posted, and I'll send links to the full committee and we will be bringing that discussion on geothermal and the HVAC. We have to make a decision will be bringing it to the full committee. So that we haven't got a recommendation yet but we, we will. So I want to thank everyone and I want to thank the guests, Mary, and where, where is he, he may have, and Bob for joining us today and thank you to nisco team. I look forward to seeing everyone and to visiting schools. Bye. We are adjourned.


Marines blasted their way through the desert in 70-ton monsters during Exercise Desert Cemetery 2014 aboard Marine Corps Air Ground Combat Center, 29 Palms, California. The exercise focused on convince and provided realistic training that prepared the Marines for overseas operations. It ensured the Marines with first tank battalion maintained the basic principles of tank warfare. We're really just looking to get back into that, the conventional mode of fighting the last 10 years of war we've been fighting counterinsurgency and kind of get away from the basic doctrine of how we wage our combined arms fight. Exercise like this can help bring us back to the basics. The training gave the Marines the opportunity to refine and rehearse essential combat skills needed in a battlefield environment. The tank crewmen often spend more than half a day inside the vehicle during training and are able to build camaraderie between each other to keep the tank operating smoothly and effectively. Being able to be out here, you get really close not only to your own crew but to the crews around you whether it be your section or your platoon or a company in its own. Being in the fight is definitely something that will bring a brotherhood. The Marines with first tanks showed their explosive prowess as they blasted through Desert Cemetery. They continued to perfect their craft, keep timely and accurate fire on target and protect their fellow Marines on the battlefield. Reporting from Camp Pendleton, California, I'm Corporal Christopher Moore.


This holiday season give her a true pumpkin latte with tactical soap Fair amount of peace soap for men proud channel sponsor 21 studios. I'm Anthony dream Johnson, and I prove this Order now the link below use coupon code 21c for 10% off now George Bruno in Orlando with the 21 report And we're talking now with Jack Donovan How was your experience so far with the 21 convention? Oh great.  It's really good energy with a lot of people and I just like it It's a very positive positive direction There's people here who want change. Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. They want to change their lives, and that's important because a lot of people don't Yeah, you didn't have to twist anyone's arm to be here. No, no, no, absolutely not Yeah, you know it when I walked in for a second. I was just telling you Because I know you can't see the audience because of the bright lights But I was standing in the audience and looking at everyone and as you were moving everyone's eyes and heads Were moving as you were moving on the stage people were captivated by you So to me, that's a great metric that you have people's attention. Yeah, that's super important What is your main message? for human beings Well, I don't really talk to human beings I talked to men You know the friend of mine always said that you should differentiate between the two but For men for years. Yeah, I've been talking about what masculinity is. Yes And I think that's really important because they have a lot of messages coming to them Telling them what masculinity is, but it's really just someone trying to control them in some one way or another You know whether it's you know cultural Things like religion, but that's kind of the old thing that doesn't really give people masculinity as much as It had the past. I mean now they're getting things from the media and they're getting you know Messages from women and feminism telling like real men does this or real men does that and it's really like Whatever women want or whatever You know the media wants and whatever someone who wants you to buy something once and so I thought it was really important Because men had a really hard time You're defining masculinity To kind of do the mental work of figuring it out. I mean a lot of people Mistake where I'm coming from and they think that maybe you know, like they expect me to be like a special forces guy or something And I know a lot of those guys but The way of men really which is kind of my main book is it was more of a logic problem Sitting down and parsing out like what you know, is this masculine? Is this always masculinity? Is this only masculinity in this culture and really taking it apart to get kind of really is an essential the masculinity And I think a lot of people have really resonated with that a lot of men have said you Wrapped up what I couldn't articulate and and so that's I think just defining masculinity is I think maybe my greatest, you know contribution To this going forward and then you know for masculinity it led to tribalism when I started to talk about masculinity in the way of men and a lot of actually a an evolutionary Psychologist I believe Saw that I was missing something that they were that science was missing in that that men select each other They always like orient everything in terms of Male and female selection like and that's what changes everything because you know talking about reproduction But to get access to women Men select each other You know who gets to be on the football team that gets them and and that's a huge social dynamic But I think a lot of people miss I never thought of that before that's interesting. Yeah Yeah, yeah, so it's it to impress women sometimes you have to impress other men Yeah, as well to be part of a that group that tracks them Yeah, and I think historically it now I mean we're very you know atomized society and a lot of people are just individuals on their own floating around and maybe that Isn't as true as it has been but you know throughout you know our human beings history I think that you know it was very much about men selecting each other in this male tribal idea You know in terms of that I moved from masculinity to tribalism and You know talking about you know what that really means it wouldn't mean to be part of a tribe because you know It's kind of a marketing buzz marketing buzzword. Mm-hmm. You know, I have a tribe. I don't know you have a mailing list Okay, yeah, that's different. There's a difference. Yeah, there's a huge difference Okay, and so I talked a lot about tribalism, you know in my book becoming a barbarian So it's it's all been a little arc for me. Yeah, but at the end of the day You know, I also realized that we aren't you know in ancient times and we aren't fighting for survival necessarily and You know it was really about Helping men right now be the best versions of themselves that they could be and You know taking all this background of history and our evolutionary background and everything and incorporating that in a way that You know can help them move forward and just become the best men that they can be Mm-hmm, and I'm you know the last book that I wrote you know becoming a more complete beast it involves a lot of Nietzsche philosophy in terms of You know overcoming this anger that a lot of men have in society, you know, right and Moving toward, you know a creative place, you know it seems like that's a common theme in the past couple years being the best version of yourself and even I Think even without saying anything like I find myself when I'm sitting next to Jack Don I'm sucking my stomach in and my shoulder I mean, it's just a natural thing and it's not a competition.  Let me ask you this Let's say a plane or a plane crashes or a ship Sinks and a hundred men are survivors and they swim to a desert island Will tribes form on that island? Oh, absolutely Tell me about that. How does that naturally happen? Yeah, I mean, I think that that's The example that I would use which is very similar to that is you know, that was very popular a few years ago Now it's kind of past peak, but the you know, the zombie apocalypse and you know What it what happens if there are zombies surrounding the building or whatever if there's an external threat We have a problem to solve and then we have to figure out who were the best people to solve that problem Yes, and that's one of the ways that men select each other. Yes he's like so, you know if we you know you crashed on the desert island and Well, who's the guy who can figure out how to make you know find or make food? Yeah, he's gonna be very important all of a sudden Yeah, he may not have been important on the ship But he's very important now and so he's gonna have a higher status Yeah, and you know the guy who you know can you know hunt the wild pig, you know Lord of the flies style That's yeah, that's that's the guy that's gonna be important in a certain way and you know Somebody who has you know a lot of know-how You know it's the you know virtue mastery that I talked about in my book is that you know very important in that kind of situation And you know obviously if there are competing tribes on the island if there's a war between the two facts Yes, yeah, then you know those kind of skills become important you know and So I mean I think that just competing for resources and creates a tribal environment and also You know, I always say about you know when people ask me about creating a tribe in the modern world You're really picking your best friends and to a certain extent. It's about human relationships as well because You know someone could have all the skills in the world, but you just don't like him. Yeah, you know He's not he's just you know, you just don't get along and so you know a try a different tribe could form because of that These is there's you know personalities don't mix You know and so there I think there's a lot of you know ways that that would naturally happen I don't think that Because you're gonna have a cooperative group and that's what that really is the tribe of shared resources You know, I've heard it said that When it comes to Survival and like you said men need the approval or seek the approval or are approved by other men in order to get women and so forth and and to dispel rumors and Conceptions about the 21 convention. It's not four days of how to get women It's four days of excellence to be a well-rounded man Whereas I heard some people say that when it comes to women and we're not women bashing at all in any way Some people said that many times women get women getting together is like the crabs in a bucket thing Where they're pulling each other down Yeah, I'm happy to see guys push each other up here and I'm witnessing it with my eyes. I'm seeing it. I'm seeing people throw the gauntlet down for excellence for other people and men Have that effect on other men Oh, absolutely. I mean it's you know, there's that kind of mentor relationship that you have and and also you know men compete naturally and so you know when you You know in your room Walk into room and there's a guy who's you know has some obvious, you know standout qualities If they want to feel comfortable in that room You know, maybe next year, they're gonna have more of those qualities Yes, you know and and you know, I want to be a higher status member of that group What does that mean?  The internet it's always like someone standing in line somewhere That's always imagine all comments on the internet actually happen Or someone standing in line at board somewhere and they see something They don't like and they make a rude comment about it Yeah, and that makes them feel better because they're mad that they're standing in line Yeah, and I feel like that's how the entire internet works And so there's this constant process of tearing people down And I think that you know, when you come together in a group of people who are trying to build people up, it's very inspiring In business, we like to say that You're the average of the five people you hang out with the most And now that we're most of us are fairly antisocial And we spent our eyeballs are more on a screen than with people I kind of took that statement and I said you're the average of the five content creators you watch the most How is like, I mean if someone's like watching you they're watching Richard Cooper, you know what I mean like I find that even just watching Higher level excellent content creators Helps me step up my game, but what's the danger of having virtual People how is that a dangerous thing or is that a good thing? To be the average of the five content creators you watch the most Well, I mean, I don't know if if you really are you're not in terms of you know Like I would love to say that I'm the average of you know, the five excellent people that I watch But I don't know that that's very true. Yeah, but you do You do gain something from that and I don't think it's bad But it does have to be supplemented with the real world relationships I think that you know the actual feedback from You know watching someone who's talking online Virtually actually dealing with them in real life is a little bit different But uh, yeah, it's not to say that the online stuff isn't worthwhile because you know, I watch people I would say either dudes I follow every day, you know, just so that I you know feel weak and fat You know to keep me motivated, right? I could be doing better Right, you know, I could be doing more I could be doing better and I think I think that's very uh, that's very motivating and you know You know, uh, you know a close friend of mine who puts out so much work And I'm like, how do you keep doing that every morning? Like how do you keep processing so much because I work a lot slower than he does and uh, so, uh, you know You know, he inspires me and I know him in person. So it's both. Yeah, but uh, yeah, my friend Paul I mean he puts out so much content and is always doing something And I feel like I do a lot of things But he shows me that I can always do more. Sure. You know, so it's it's very inspiring in that way We need people like that in our lives. Absolutely. Definitely. All right So there's someone sitting on a couch right now, right and they're watching this on their iphone Right and this video is going to be forever in the future And that person is stuck They don't know where they're going a year from now, let alone five years from now They're in despair That man just feels like a loser. He might have been divorced. He might have gotten fired He just doesn't he feel like as cooper says he feels like he's not making a dent in the universe speak to that man right there What are the first things that that man needs to do?  Is basically what I would say You know your life is up to you. It's the only one that you have and you can either take control of it and uh, you know kind of envision what you want to be and As as confining as the modern world can be Creating an You have a lot of opportunity to create a vision for yourself You know, whatever crazy idea that you have in your head of who you want to be You can actually kind of do that in modern life.  That's probably not a good. Well, it's not going to last long but uh, you can There's so many, you know Outlets for information You know, you can find a youtube video on how to do anything that you want to do All you have to do is decide to do it And uh, I think that you can really, you know, whatever life that you want to leave Whatever life that you wanted to lead, uh, you can actually Find the information very quickly more quickly than you ever could in history And Find, you know, the tools that you need to become that person You know people whether it's your diet people always say I wish I knew how to do this Well, the information is right there. All you have to do is find it Find the person that does what you want to do and looks how you want to look and do what they're doing And if that doesn't work, find the next person And the same is true with Anything in life, whether it's business or whatever, you know, want to make more money There's people who tell you how to do that and then you have to evaluate how really good they are doing that themselves And uh, you know, the information is there So it's up to you. I mean, it's your responsibility. It's your life. You can die on the couch You can you know, cover it in cheeto dust or whatever But uh, you know, that's that's that can happen And that's you'll live and die with that Or you have this one chance Yeah, maybe my friend paul that I mentioned We both have this He asked me this question one time You know, if you could live any time in history When would you live and you know, I I'm like I'm doing pretty good right now So now's good And we both felt the same way because we were both having a lot of success in life and now's good This is the only time we get you can't actually go back and live any time in history. So this is your now Uh You know, this is the time that you have and this is your this is our time Uh, so you can you can take it or not Powerful stuff That's the second time I heard about dying on the couch today Yeah, powerful powerful. You can be found on instagram at start the world In jack dash donovan Dot com. Yes, d o n o v a n People always spell it with an a Excellent George bruno for the 21 report in Orlando, florida. Thank you jack donovan. All right. Thank you