Welcome folks, this is a joint meeting of the House Government Operations Committee House Corrections Commission's committee. It is Thursday, March 31st. We are continuing our conversation of yesterday with the issue of recruitment and retention of our correctional staff, both within our curriculum. We heard testimony yesterday from the Vermont state employees folks. And today we're going to hear testimony from the administration, the Department of Corrections. We have the Commissioner of Corrections with us. We also have on Zoom with us. Kind of see the Interim Deputy Commissioner, Matt DiAgostino, and we also have the Academy Administrator of the Training Academy for Correctional Officers, James Rice. So with that, we will start with Commissioner Demo, who is with us in person. So Commissioner, please come on up. Let me get a couple out there. How hard the question is. Oh, so I think one thing that might help us to go around the table, the Commissioner is new and may not know all of us and we should go around and introduce ourselves. So I'm Representative Alice Simmons from Springfield and Chair of the Corrections and Institutions Committee. I'm Representative Sarah Copland-Hanses from Bradford, Chair of the Government Operations Committee. Representative Hal Colston from Winnowski. Representative Rob Leclerc from Berrytown. Representative Mercury from Lowell. Hi, I'm Mike. We're working from Putney, from deep in the heart of the southeast end of Oklahoma. I'm Samantha Le Fay from the town of Orange. I'm Representative Coffee from Gilford. Representative Scott Campbell, St. John's Berry. Can you hear me? Good sound check. Karen Dolan, Essex Junction. Michael Morgan, Milton, you can hear me. I can hear you. Yeah. Marsha Martell, Autifood. Michelle Boslin, Westminster. Larry Labor, Morgan. Bert Taylor, Colchester. Representative Mary Morrissey from Bennington. Peter Anthony, Berry City. John Gammon, Wilmington. And we also have another member of Corrections and Institutions Committee with us on Zoom. Representative Linda Joyce Sullivan from Dorset. So Commissioner, welcome. And as I mentioned to you for us to hear all the way down the table, you're going to need to shout. Yeah, especially over the fan, it sounds like. There's something running. What is that? Hot water. Oh. Oh, it's a coffee pot or something. Oh, all right. So that's only for a limited time. Command voice. Yeah, right. Joining us right now is Representative Vajowski. And she is from SSS. So Commissioner, welcome. And it's all yours. Great. Well, good morning. Hopefully y'all can hear me and I'm sure the representative here will keep me honest on that.  Appreciate the opportunity to come before you today to discuss what is I think the single most important issue of the department. And that's our staff. As we mentioned at the beginning, my name is Nick Demmel. I have been the commissioner of corrections for about five months. And in that time, I've had the opportunity to meet with corrections officers with probation and parole officers with educators. Many of those groups you represented here yesterday with business office staff with service providers with legislators. With outside stakeholders with our labor partners and even with the central office to discuss the department we now lead and the direction that we want to take it. But most importantly, to diagnose some of our challenges, strategize on meaningful solutions to address those challenges and then execute that change that I think we all seek in the department that our staff yearns for. And that I think you are also interested in as evidenced by this hearing today. So last night for my recreational activity, I was able to watch the testimony from yesterday. And I was really heartened, you know, I think you had four of our amazing staff members before yesterday, and they did just an amazing job. I think they provided you with a fair and accurate and a fairly raw assessment of the department that we're all here to discuss. But I also think that they demonstrated a current that runs through all of our staff, even the central office about the department that everybody is committed to making it better. And we want to build towards a department that we can all be proud to serve it. And so I was pleased to hear some of the testimony yesterday and I think you selected for really excellent representatives of our staff. My predecessor Jim Baker set this department on a new and more sustainable course. And I think he deserves a lot of credit for that. It was it was the efforts that he made the aim of correcting our system and avoiding some of our historical mistakes that that gives us the foundation which we can now continue to build it. And I wanted to mention that at the top because I think he does deserve a lot of credit for getting a set for this new transition that we're trying to make. In my assessment, there are five key areas that we need to focus on to minimize the staffing shortages we now face to build a sustainable and structurally sound department for the future. And we'll live up to the promises that we make to provide human services to those in our care and custody. Those five areas are paying benefits, professional development and professionalization staff wellness and the staff experience communication and leadership. What's clear to me is that the staffing challenges we face will not be solved with any one solution. But instead, we have to deploy an array of effort targeting these five areas. Taking together a hope. And that's all it is a hope that we can rise the tide and demonstrably change the department staffing culture and our future trajectory. So if you permit me a few minutes, I'd like to discuss a few of the ways the department has reoriented itself to those five key areas. The conversations that I've had in the field and the facilities through our town hall meetings and through direct feedback that I get frequently via phone text to email snail mail. It's loud and clear how important pay benefits and retirement are to our staff. These are critical supports that we provide to our team. The conversations have helped me and informed our decision making to extend key provisions of a side letter agreement that we made with our labor partners last year to provide additional support to our staff during the coven 19 pandemic. I contributed directly to the administration's negotiation of the contract with the labor union. It starts this summer and I think really makes meaningful impactful long term permanent investments in our staff. And so I think that those two key vehicles have provided really important benefits at an important time as we tackle these challenges. Relatedly though, earlier this year, the staff at St. Johnsbury handed me a petition that was signed by the vast majority of our team up there. Requesting that the department change its shift schedule at St. Johnsbury from our traditional three eight hour shifts to our two 12 hour shift model. We've used this model during a staffing emergency due to coven 19 and staff immediately reported a boost in morale, more predictable schedules and time off with their families, and a strong preference not to return to the three eight hour shifts that we had traditionally used I support ideas like this because they were staff generated, they were staff supported, and they make an impact immediately on the lives of our staff, the morale that we're all trying to improve. It may not work everywhere and certainly we're not trying to push it everywhere, but it was clear that at St. Johnsbury staff wanted this schedule. And so we responded to deliver that to them and we're working to explore ways to make that more structurally sound in the long term. Hey, benefits and the like are critical component of our ability to recruit and retain staff. But they're not the only aspect of a career that people value. And I think it's really important that we understand that. In addition to pay and benefits, people also want to feel a sense of purpose. They want to know that the organization that they work for is committed to them as a person, and they want to feel that they are part of a team. They want to know that we're committed in them as professionals. So if we expect our staff to spend a career in the Department of Corrections, then we need to provide them with a robust commitment in their career, which leads to our second bucket of professional development. We're going to do this in a variety of ways. We're going to alter our performance evaluation process to include required professional development conversations where supervisors will be required to discuss with those that they supervise career goals, career plans and the skills and training that the staff need to continually improve in their careers. For its part, the department will make major investments in these areas to ensure that staff are continually supported and empowered to gain new skills, access the training that we offer, and that they can capitalize on those experiences. We're also going to create career roadmaps so that our team members can make informed choices about what skills they should seek to achieve their individual goals. If a CO1 wants to become a policy expert at the central office, they should not have to do that alone. The department can give them a menu, a guidebook that will help them move through their career. If a shift supervisor in a facility wants to become a probation officer, the department can provide them on the guidance and access to training to empower them to get to that point. These plans will help to demonstrate the department's commitment to our staff and to their careers. We're also launching new supervisory development training for our staff supervisors. This training will be delivered to all supervisors because we recognize how important the supervisor position is on the line staff and how wide that impact is. This effort is a culmination of specific requests from staff and from supervisors alike to better prepare supervisors when they take on the unique role of that frontline supervision. And it will certainly help to improve the overall situation for the department. This is the first in a series of training structures that we're looking to develop in the months ahead. This new training paradigm will help have the maximum effect on the department and it launches a truly crucial time in our history. It will raise the level of professionalism, the skill and the quality that we have in our department. Professional development and a true investment in individuals by this team will make the department better for all who are serving within it and those who we are monitoring in our care and custody. Another thing we know though is that a job and career corrections is not just a job, but it's a lifestyle. Our team knows this, but the department can do much more to support the wellness of our team and the experience for our staff and the facilities in the field offices. To that end, the department is stepping up its efforts to provide wraparound staff wellness programs. So that if our team is willing to make corrections a lifestyle, the department is there to meet them to support their whole lives, not just the period of time they're within our facility or supervising in our communities. We've done this already in a few days. We launched and supported teams that address key needs of our staff, such as a peer support team, a family support team, and hired clinical psychologists to travel the state and provide support to our staff. We surveyed our facilities to determine what they actually needed to enhance the work environment, not the pizza parties that we've heard about. But instead, what they wanted were water coolers, toaster ovens, new and more comfortable chairs, coffee and espresso machines, TVs, a refrigerator, popcorn machines, a grill. And we're exploring ways to improve the art, the paint and other atmospheric needs of the facilities to improve the overall situation for staff in those places. We also launched what I'm calling the small bucket solutions to make small but impactful changes on the daily lives of staff. We changed our policy on water bottles to enable staff to bring in whatever water bottle they wanted. It just improves their level of comfort at their workstation. We changed our facial hair policy to enable greater freedom among staff to don the facial hair of their choice. We renewed an effort to enable them to wear special teams patches or special awards patches on their uniforms that recognize special service within our system. We expanded the provision of hotel rooms to our staff to prevent sleeping in cars or for those long and dangerous drives after long shifts. We expanded paid travel time for staff who volunteer in the facilities that need support to encourage volunteers. We're going to continue to seek other small bucket solutions that chip away at aspects of the work on staff that they find difficult. But as we emerge slowly from the pandemic, we need to stop and recognize that these these staff, the frontline workers, the first responders who are serving 24 hours a day, seven days a week and every day of the year, have experienced trauma, mental, physical and emotional distress, and that COVID has taken a toll on everybody. Ramon was the first state in the US to complete the first phase of the prison research innovation network initiative, which you heard a little about yesterday called the print. One of the most troubling findings out of that research was the data surrounding suicide contemplation, both among staff and the incarcerated population. Nearly one in 10 DOC staff members at Southern State reported contemplating suicide in the year prior to the survey. I want to respect the integrity of the print process, and I think it has a lot of promise, but we could not wait for that process to address suicide contemplation in our system. So earlier this year, the department established a suicide advisory prevention panel. The panel's goals are to create a shared understanding of the suicide problem set to prepare recommendations the department can take to educate, mitigate and prevent suicides and suicide contemplation, and to oversee the implementation of all these recommendations within our system. This panel is comprised two thirds of field and facility staff and one third from the central office, including mental health experts and clinicians. But we also took immediate action to address these problems. We established this working group that I just mentioned, but we also reevaluated our suicide prevention stipend training. We introduced peer support teams into the academy, both before individuals go to the academy during the academy and after the academy so that they know it is a resource on which they can rely. We formally incorporated self care into the DOC system. We are prioritizing critical after care, critical incident after care. We did a review of mandatory overtime. We're working to change the schedules and make improvements to scheduling for staff. We're reviewing the disciplinary process to improve and streamline the system. We provided a real mechanism for staff to get feedback directly to me and other senior leaders in the central office. We address staff reluctance to seek assistance. And we're providing supervisor training to identify and intervene in acute stress instances. All of this is going to be packaged together in a holistic wellness program that we hope to roll out for staff. These are just some of the ways that we can invest in our staff as individuals and keep the human aspect in our system. The department is also working diligently to improve our communication. We're doing this through engagement internally and externally and abiding commitment to transparency. My goal is to communicate in a way that's substantive, informative and responsive to our staff. We've reformatted our town halls with staff, which occur monthly. We increase the frequency of workforce notifications that send information to everybody on our team. And we've increased leadership visits to field and facility offices. With every communication, we are going to explain what we're doing, explain why we're doing it, and then solicit feedback and buy-in so that together, concept we haven't always explored, but together we can move this department forward. One of the most common issues raised to me by line staff during my visits to the facilities was the lack of access to the central office and a belief that leadership does not understand the actual challenges faced by our field facility staff. So earlier this year, we launched a staff wellness committee to provide line officers and supervisors in the facilities and field offices with a dedicated forum to meet with me on a monthly basis and to brainstorm solutions, represent staff concerns and ideas, and promote wellness in our system. The committee has begun to break down the barriers and will provide a loud and prominent voice to our line staff. And this is just one part of our effort to empower the workforce, improve communications going both directions, and establish a method for important voices in our department to be heard and feel that their opinions and ideas are valued. It's well understood that organizations that fail often do so for flawed, poor, or non-existent communication. Our staff knows that the department struggles with this, and we just need to call it what it is. So when that's the case, distrust, frustration, disconnection are the result. So I'm working very hard to correct the course on communication and build a better system to ensure that we capture all the voices that they are heard and respected, and that the best ideas are considered and implemented. To that end, I launched a direct channel of communication for every and any staff member to reach out to me directly. This channel has provided them with a known, safe, and open way to communicate with their leaders. It's been a great success so far, and it has directly resulted in changes to our system and many ideas that are under consideration as we explore how to implement them. So let me end with just a comment on leadership. Leadership is one of the most studied concepts in human history. There are libraries full of tomes, extolling observations, and advice on leadership. So far be it from this lawyer turned corrections official from a small town, Wisconsin to tell you all about leadership. But what I will say is this, the department needs to spot, assess, and develop talent in our system. We need to cultivate our staff, and we need to meet their interests with training, education, and skills so that they can excel. We need to rethink the way that we select our leaders in the system, and we need to focus on key attributes that enable a leader to work through and with others to take ownership of the area of responsibility to our mission to motivate, promote, and protect our team. And this is what the culture change looks like. This is professionalization of the Department of Corrections. This is building towards that future that we all want, and it is imperative that we get this right and we will need your support to do that. So I believe that these efforts taken together have the promise to meaningfully change situation in the Department of Correction. Take a little time, but we're already seeing some of the positive results of these efforts. We're working to improve staff satisfaction and embrace a culture that we can be proud of. So I'd be happy to discuss any of that, or any other topic that you like to discuss today. And I thank you for the opportunity to be here with you all, and for your interest in our team. Thank you, Commissioner, and we can open it up for questions and comments from the members. I do want to thank you for putting in all the work you've been doing in your short time of being commissioner to really start changing the direction of the department and being responsive to the staffing needs. My question is, what you've just testified to is a breath of fresh air. How can we ensure that those changes will continue regardless of who's in central office? Are there directives? Are there policies that you're going to be putting in place? So this is a continuum? Or is just this going to be more dependent in terms of who's sitting in your seat? Yeah, I think that is a great question, Representative.  And that's important as it relates to the commissioner, but it's also important as it relates to superintendents or as it relates to our senior staff. And it's why I think that the training and professional development and that cultivation of leaders who have a belief in this paradigm is important. But yes, we're going through a review of all of our policies. You'd be shocked to know how many are older than 10 years. So we're starting there. Every policy that's older than 10 years is going to be reviewed this year and either revised, rescinded, or updated so that at least the language is up to the modern standard and representative for what we want. So that's one way is we can we can institute policies that do that. But I think internally we needed to create the structures that can enable some of this change to happen and those structures haven't always existed. That's an ongoing effort, but I am completely committed to trying to create the structure of the department in a way that isn't reliant on individuals. That has been a problem in the past. So you also mentioned that there would need to be some help from the legislative end. Do you have any idea what that might be in the short term, or what it might be in the long term. I think we're going to run out of runway this year. But I think that there are some some. I think we need to take a step back to really prioritize how how we look at our legislative agenda in the next year, and some of the changes that we can seek from you in the next term. The construction of a women's facility and the efforts underway to do that are going to be a sea change as well. And that is one way that we can demonstrate our commitment to those in our care and custody. But it's also a way that we can demonstrate our commitment to staff when you give them a work environment that is inviting and meets their needs. It's easier to go to work every day, even if you do have to work the long hours, the extra overtime. But there will certainly be things we'll come asking for. It strikes me, though, is interesting that of many of the things that I just talked about with you all, there's not a financial tail to that, or if there is, it's minimal. And it shows to me that money alone is not the solution to all these problems. Money doesn't change culture. So when we look at ourselves, when we take that moment for self evaluation and introspection, what's striking to me is, is we it's not that we don't have enough money, it's that we haven't been doing it right. And so that's what we're trying to change. Questions. Senator Copland Hanses, Representative Coffey, we'll go from there. All right. Thank you for being with us this morning. As it happened yesterday, the staff people who were here speaking to us happened to all be oriented to the Southern State Correctional Facility. And I'm glad to hear you bring up the issue of culture, because it really sounded like currently in and out of that building, they operate as a team. You know, they want to step in and step up for each other. And that seems like a really positive development. But some of the words that we heard during testimony yesterday were really concerning to me. And I guess I wanted you to talk a little bit more about culture within each individual facility, which may vary from facility to facility. And talk a little bit about how you envision helping shift that culture, because some of the words that we heard yesterday were difficult, dangerous, relies on nepotism, toxic, abusive work environment. Frankly, it's no wonder that it would be hard to retain and recruit into that kind of a working environment. So how do you envision shifting the culture in each of the facilities, recognizing that they're starting perhaps from very different places. Yeah, so Verona six facilities, and they're geographically dispersed from each other, and they each have their own unique attributes that that part's true. And they're different sizes, which also has a has a big impact. But I think that what we assess and what we've seen in studies or assessments that we've done is that the challenges are fairly universal. They don't actually relate to one specific facility or another, there's there are certain aspects that do. But I think as it relates to staff, that's not as as prevalent, I think the challenges faced by staff in one facility or the challenges faced by staff and another maybe on different scales and things of that nature. What we know is that leadership of a facility is critical. The superintendent position is a critical position in the department. I think, you know, without, I don't mean this majority really in any way but the two maybe most important jobs in the department of corrections are the facility superintendent and the first line supervisor. Those two positions have outsized impact on staff. And so we need to be getting it right on those two positions. So, training and professional development of first line supervisors, and then selecting leaders true leaders for this for the superintendent positions I think are critical. Some of the other ways that we can get at that though are process improvement. People don't trust the promotion process. They think that it's unfair that it's nepotism it's the old boys network and I've talked about this a lot with our media colleagues. We need to break that immediately. People need to have faith in our ability to promote by merit. And so that is one area that we're working very hard at we're starting kind of in reverse but starting with the co one position to standardize that application process so that hiring of that role is universal across the system and meets a standard that we want to see. And then for training rolling out the training for the supervisors I think really gets at that frontline supervisor level. People also don't trust the discipline process. And it's not transparent it's opaque discipline appears to be disparate although I don't think that's actually true. And I think that's because of a lack of transparency. And it takes forever, or at least it has. So that is an area we immediately tried to speed up tried to make more transparent and clear and try to really have a fair and judicious process that we follow on human resources issues. And then I think we need to communicate with folks that we need to be seen there and we need to hear what they have to say so that we can really get to the root of the problems faced by staff. And so we've tried to create as many channels for them to communicate that as possible. Representative coffee and then representative Gannon and representative Cooper and then represent close to represent coffee. Thank you. Madam chair. Thank you commissioner for being here. It's really great to hear this this update and with your leadership on many of these things. And so, and it's, and it's interesting to have you back to back with the folks who came in here yesterday who who provided testimony that was that was really compelling. And then they clearly demonstrate their commitment to the work and desire to take seriously the role that they play in the custody and care of people from honors who are in our D. O. C.'s care. And I was glad to hear you talk about professionalization of staff and career pathways and training and I'm curious to hear you talk about, you know, we in our committee have heard about through justice reinvestment and efforts before that, you know, there have been so many efforts to divert people from going into our facilities. And so what the results of that is a smaller number of people being incarcerated but also a different kind of individual or different kinds of individuals who are incarcerated in. And I'm curious to hear what the department is doing in terms of training for staff because we did hear from someone yesterday who's been working in the department for 15 years and, and it was clearly committed to his job but it didn't I couldn't hear how training over 15 years has also evolved with the with the folks and we have heard from the department in the past about trauma informed training. You're fresh with your fresh eyes what's what's going on in that area because we do hear like that it should be like law enforcement, you know, there's a tension between security and what we hear from folks working there is like social work and I'm just, you know, I think that is part of the culture that's one of the challenges like as I do I personally from the work that we see incarcerated folks need it's both you need to have a secure facility you need to have calm and but there are a lot of as you described a lot of trauma and there are a lot of needs that need to be addressed, whether it's do medical care but also through whether it's reentry planning or programing, and it takes a different kind of skill set that maybe somebody who 15 years ago, you know, what they, what they, you know, the kinds of folks that they're working with some curious to hear your thinking and how the department is looking at that and, you know, looking forward of how that training can support our staff. Yeah, I think you're absolutely right. It's there is an inherent tension between security and and some of the provision you know I think of it as the provision of services that we provide to to those in our current custody, but I don't think there has to be. I think security is a core competency of any facility officer. It's imperative that we have security that we maintain order, because it creates the space for the provision of services, either having volunteers come in having the service providers come in, or the educators. Without the security to do that we wouldn't have the opportunity, but I think that the department has moved in the direction of creating more trauma informed education and training for staff. We recognize that's a critical part of the practice of corrections this, you know, we have to steal. You probably know I just steal from my old background but we always call it trade craft, the things that you at your core what are you what are you really good at what are your secrets. We there's a trade craft to corrections and part of that trade craft has to be trauma informed training and education. It has to be recognizing that a corrections officer in a living unit is not simply there to keep everybody locked in the house. They're also there to help them through situations to work with the individuals to get the, the care the system in place that they need to help them thrive and eventually re enter the community in a positive situation to connect them with the right resources within a facility. And all that is critically important I think we've moved in that direction and we do provide trauma informed training to officers and director rice is here and I think can speak with more authority on this than I can. But we're good at security. Our growth area is the other part. And I think that's where we have room to grow and keep focusing and we're we're discussing today our staff and so we didn't go too far and on the other side of the issue. But if you want to talk about a population who has experienced trauma and incarcerated population even before COVID nearly every one of them has experienced trauma in their lives and we need to recognize that and tend to that. So I don't know if director Rice had any comments about the training that we're providing. I think he'd be the best to weigh in on that part of your question. Commissioner. Could you just identify yourself for the record please James. Yes, my name is James Rice. I'm the Academy director and interim director of the professional development office to speak to training specifically like our trauma informed training. The commissioner mentioned some systematic efforts that are going on to change how we do business so it's not you know just person centered but we're setting up the appropriate system so things are sustainable and and that really runs true in the training world as well. So in addition to having trauma informed training and bolstering that we also look at it a little bit differently in regards to being trauma responsive isn't just about one training it's about a lens that we look through so one of the processes that we are going through is ensuring that every training we deliver whether it's you know whether it's about trauma or it's about anything is done through that trauma informed lens. And so that really speaks to what we want to shift with the culture, the language that we use in trainings. How we how we model that from a training aspect that then gets incorporated into our communications training and spread out through all of the trainings that we do with our staff. So we do have existing traumatic stress training. We have the commissioner has really supported us in the training world tremendously within the next two months we are taking on an entire new curriculum based around traumatic stress management. And it's a it's a curriculum that's well recognized and supported. It gives staff the tools to not only be educated about what trauma is and how it affects them in the stress, but also gives them a lot of wellness tools that they can incorporate in their their own life. That's something that will be rolled out in phases across the whole department. Additionally, later this summer, we've been giving given the opportunity to expand our training Academy for new staff for an additional week. And within that additional week that gives us more capacity to deliver the types of trainings that are being identified by our staff and the various committees have been talked about as things that staff really feel are important, and we support that as well. So, whether it's increased, you know, traumatic stress management training, gender responsive training, all the things that, you know, we believe will help us get to the point that we're looking to If I might, Madam Chair, ask a follow up question. So, you know, we heard yesterday how important is on, you know, training in a facility or and we heard how that can shape an officer's You know, approach to the work. So I'm really curious, though, like how do you work with folks who have been there for a while. I think what's behind my question. You're talking about changing a you're talking about changing a culture that is a, you know, positive place to work. And I think how do you, how do you do you require training for office or for people who've been there for a while for this new work that's more than like a two hour training or how do you really, this is about culture change really is what we're talking about and I understand that the academy and I understand that's a rich place to kind of get people on firm footing and and but what do you do with folks, you know, to help folks who have been there while but the Things have changed, you know, and we heard we heard yesterday, you know, change is hard and especially in an institution like correction. So how do you see affecting that change and bringing folks who have given good service but bringing them along for the Successful and to embrace this and strengthen their toolkit in this area of work. Yeah, I think that there's there's a formal way and an informal way to do that. So the department does have continuing training requirements and staff have 40 hours of training here that they can dedicate to training. What we need to do is make sure that that training is in alignment with these values that we're talking about and I think that it isn't and director Rice is doing a wonderful job of reorienting the training where it needed it, and really bolstering the good training that we had in place so so making sure when officers do go to their annual training that the training they take regardless of what it is meets all of these needs. And, you know, I think, almost as important, or perhaps more important is the informal piece of that and that's the on the job training the day to day experience the field training officers who are training the newer officers, the shift supervisors, the departments, we need to get those key leadership positions in alignment with these values, and having them do it on a daily basis in the standard daily practice, because if it doesn't take root there, we can train people all day at night and it'll take a very long time to move the ship that way. And I think one of the ways we've done that, at the superintendent level so our kind of six leaders on the top and then at the field office managers who are the superintendent equivalent book for the probation pro offices is to start doing much more frequent crossover meetings where we bring all those leaders together and we sit down and talk about that it gives me an opportunity to talk about my commander's intent gives them an opportunity to ask questions and raise issues that they're feeling in their facilities but most importantly I think it gives us an opportunity to share best practices and try to really understand what's working and what isn't and then move everybody towards the stuff that's working and away from the stuff that isn't. So that's another venue where we can convey this message and get everybody on the same sheet of music. I know we have a couple more questions, but I really want to put in context for members of the committee have been you may not have the numbers at your fingertips for today so I know you have some backup folks with Matt the Augustino and it would be good for the committee to know how many folks are incarcerated in our facilities and of those folks how many are in the women's facility. So you may have that at your fingertips today if not maybe Matt or Al could. So our incarcerated number today is just over 1300 that's about the number it's been since I've started you know plus or minus it fluctuates a bit because Vermont as you are well aware as a unified system so we have all the detainers in the state as well which would in many states being county jails are you know and they're the population that's very fluid in and out of depending on when their court hearings are and things of that nature. So about 1300 and it fluctuates a bit the women's facility I think this morning was at 88 so less than about I'm a lawyer not a mountain map and but somewhere around 70% yeah seven or 8% thank you. Very helpful from a money committee. Right, right exactly. I'm showing my. So we have some more questions representative Shannon. Thank you very much for testifying today. I just have two questions around staff shortages and overtime it would be great to get data for those issues, because I think every witness that we heard from yesterday, testified about the staff shortages and their impact on overtime. Yeah, that it was impacting overtime. I think one witness testified that that impacted their ability to train because you're taking them off the floor. So, and you only mentioned once over time, you said you're reviewing mandatory overtime. So can you address what you're doing around overtime. Yeah, staff shortages please. Yeah, absolutely. No, it's a very important question. We don't have enough staff across the board with you know that we cannot avoid that reality. It's not unique to the Vermont Department of Corrections but it is acutely a problem within the Department of Corrections. This existed before COVID but was made significantly worse as a result of COVID and the mandatory overtime is a result of that lack of staffing. The reality is and I appreciated that nobody said this yesterday. The reality is there is no immediate answer to that we have increased pay and benefits that are very targeted at recruitment and retention. And our recruitment efforts are going up and that's an area we continue to invest in heavily. But without the staff, you know, it is hard for us to draw down of mandatory overtime and so I just want to be very clear about that so that it's it's known that we're not shying away from it and we understand that but the state has a less than 3% unemployment rate. There are 40,000 open jobs in the state and 10,000 underemployed Vermonters who may not be looking for jobs. So, we're competing in an environment that is. It's a difficult and you heard Mr. Grunner yesterday. I think, you know, very accurately describe this work is not for everybody and it is hard work. Working in a facility on the concrete floors with the loud noises in an austere environment. You know, 812 16 hours a day that's hard work. And so, of the job candidates that we are going to attract. It's much smaller than than what other employers are going to face. I think that our pay and benefits are a great way to attract folks to the careers, but I like I said at the beginning, it is not the only way that is not the only reason people want a career go to work. So what we have to do, in my opinion, is all these other things I was talking about and really spread the field and and try to get as many lines of effort going as a way to attract folks. We can recruit people all day, but if they come into a system that's broken and they they don't want to work there they're just going to leave. We have to attack both sides of this problem on the recruitment side and the retention side. The reality is until we get more staff, we won't be able to decrease the amount of overtime. There's no way around that we can tinker with schedules and things of this nature, and that helps, but it's not a solution at that minimum it's a banding. So our recruitment efforts are going well and I think director Rice could talk about that because he also leads our recruitment efforts but we've really made a full court press on that we're using our digital advertising. We're posting jobs on online job board, you know, indeed things of that nature. We've streamlined the process we identified a problem with the states HR system that was not allowing candidates to translate between one system to the other. We've eliminated that we're doing job fairs as they begin to open up now. I think, you know, some I can't remember which of you asked Mr Groner yesterday but would you recommend somebody come work in corrections until the answer is yes, it's going to be really hard to keep people. So we need to make this as an attractive career. And I think that it is the thing that we hear universally from staff is they like their jobs, they are committed to what they are doing. It's that they don't trust the leadership of the department they've not communicated with they don't feel valued. So those are the areas we need to work on it's not that they actually don't like what they're doing they really do. And so if we can fix those other things we will attract people who want us a career and state service, we will attract the public interest folks the public service oriented individuals, like myself, and many of the others who who work in the department So just thought do you have the data on that I mean our staffing shortage is going down is overtime going down. Yeah, we can provide you the data. I don't think that it will show you that it's going down. I think we've been holding steady lately and our recruitment numbers are going up so that's positive. But recruitment, depending on times of year also fluctuates and so I don't want to say it's a direct result of acts I think you know we need a longer data data set to be able to say yes this is truly having an impact or no we're just in one of these cycles where recruiting is easier. I think, you know, it's a really vexing problem set. And so my goal has just been to do everything we can things that are even out of, you know, out of the norm to try to push this forward and be competitive and show people they can have a really valuable career here. Thank you. So, I hope her. Campbell, and then we're got the whole ski. Then we'll go from there. Thank you madam chair have several questions if you'll indulge me following up on representative Gannon's but first, I want to say that when I first heard that you were hired, having had a lot of experience in state government. I didn't know whether the governor was crazy to hire you or you were crazy position. It might have been a little about. But, you know, quite frankly, staff response has been good to your trying things that haven't been tried before. So hats off. I still wouldn't want to be sitting in your chair. Yesterday we heard from some of the line staff about staffing being a crisis situation and no float no backup in in one of the facilities that admittedly people like being in. And I know there are facilities that people don't like being in. So from a security perspective, you're basically having people work 16s with minimal staffing levels. They're thinking the inmates are getting the word out that there is no backup. What sort of plan do you have in place if there is a security breach. How are you going to check who's going to come in to help. I have four questions you want them all at once. Let's take them one at a time. I have a horrible memory, whatever my strength. Sorry, that's not one of them. I'm a little reticent to go too far into our security response plans. I will tell you we have a special response team that deals with, you know, violence or situations in an emergency setting. We also have agreements with state police and things of that nature. But I'd like to avoid going much deeper into the security plan. I will say, you know, I've heard that line from staff as well that, you know, they, and I'm certain that it's true that the incarcerated know kind of the ebbs and flows of the system and they know and staffing is good and bad and they know when things are going well and when they aren't and it in many ways, our staff and the incarcerated, you know, coexist with each other and, you know, other human beings and so we have intuition and we can pick up on these things or you can identify patterns over time. It's something that we watch closely but we've also seen at least certainly since I've been here but I think over the last couple of years is a more symbiotic relationship between the two entities because we've all been experiencing something that that that hits universally and the incarcerated were really helpful to us and getting through with 19 that you know their frustrations, particularly now about the lockdowns and and I feel for them and I understand that. But throughout people were helpful. They got vaccinated and boosted when we asked they they did all the things that they could from their, you know, small corner of the world to be able to help. And I think we haven't, you know, Mr Garner said yesterday the population is less violent, we haven't had, you know, acts of violence and hopefully that continues. And I think to represent coffee's point, the more that we can interact. Also, in addition to being security officers interact as service providers and being helpful to the incarcerated that relationship continues. I mean, on Friday visit last Friday visiting the women's detention and reentry facility there. And I will tell you walking into their detention facility, having been to our facilities here. Different universe.  The doors are wood, they have windows. You can openly walk into the rec yard when you so choose. And so there is a way to I say this because there is a way to run a correction system that is security minded and focused and secure, but also where there's relationship between the staff and the incarcerated that keeps down the violence that minimizes conflict. You know, it's really hard to hear Mr Garner yesterday talk about how he is able to walk in, and the volume comes down, and he can just talk to somebody. That's where we went that that's where we make the, the, that kind of brings up my next question, because you, you talked about training and giving training in the academy is a good thing. I'd sort of like to know in in coordination with representative Gannon's question, what the turnover rate is both now in line staff and in essentially training failures in the academy. How do you expect to offer to people on the line when at this point, they can't get away from their jobs. Period. Yeah, along get to training. I think, you know, largely our drawback in training and there has been one was the result of COVID-19. And I know somebody mentioned yesterday that we have a phased approach to reopening our system be happy to talk about that but as we move into those phases that enable more in person work and have that space. We also training as a parent. So we need to get back to training and it's something that I've worked with director as really closely on is making sure we're getting our core competency training out there. We're doing our special teams training. So there are ways innovative ways within a facility that we can ensure that we can take an officer couple of officers offline for a few days or however long they need and keep the system going to make sure we can spread around the amount of training that we need to ensure that that we can make those criteria. So I'm very happy to hear that you took the suggestion in St. John'sbury for the 212. If you pull somebody from the line and you get somebody that calls out. What are you going to do to backfill because 212 is 24 hours and two days and you're running up against federal law I think in terms of saying hey will you stay over again. So we have well I'll say the 12 hour shift structure actually frees up staff because you don't need to fill 3 ships you only need to fill 2. And so one shift a day disappears and we can talk through and again there are smarter people on this than me but we can talk through how that works. But in the situation in St. John'sbury the stabbing crisis we were facing initially which led us to try out the 12 hour shift model evaporated immediately because we had an extra quantity of staff that we don't otherwise have. And in the other facilities where we have the 3 8 hour shifts there is flexibility in the system. And we have continuity of operations plans specifically designed for how to maintain staffing levels and we had to put those to the test during COVID because particularly during the Omicron phase because so many staff are being taken out by you know close contacts or infections themselves that we really did have to put that to the test and we have stopped gaps that we can rely on to ensure the continuity of the system. We're not in that situation any longer though I can show you our daily staff dashboard that tracks daily staff across the system and we're actually in a much much better place than we were even a month ago. So we do have the bandwidth to reinvigorate training and push that out. Last question compound question. I assume you're doing exit interviews I'd like to know how often retirement comes up as opposed to or in addition to pay. Whether you have asked for and received a market factor adjustment. When you talked about raising pay I wonder how that happened. The 20 year retirement plan is the department supporting that anyway. So the department doesn't have impact on the retirement or pension plan that that is not inside the the borders of the part of the contract that we influence those. And I'd like to know what your turnover rate is overall as I mentioned before. So the I think largely that's data that we'll have to provide you after the hearing. I'm sorry. We do. Yeah. And I think that that's an area that had started before I started but an area that we need to really lean into and we've gotten extremely valuable information out of those. Those are a really critical tool that we use to understand. Thank you very much. Good luck. Thank you very much. Representative Colson and representative Campbell. Thank you madam chair. Thank you commissioner and thank you for your leadership. I have a communication question. We heard loud and clear yesterday that staff shortage has been a chronic and you know ongoing challenge. So word of mouth communication is powerful and long lasting. So if a staff person leaves because of negative experiences it's very likely that person will tell 10 other people about their experiences and why they should never work for the department. So what is the communication plan and strategy to mitigate that negative messaging. I think we have to win that one on the merits. We need to create a system that staff don't feel that way when you know some staff do bad things and they go away and that we can't solve for. They're going to be disgruntled one way or the other. But for the staff who are leaving voluntarily we need to. I think the only way to change that is to create a system that they did like working for and minimize that as much as possible because if we're not doing that we're not solving the underlying issue. And so that's our goal. We also should be communicating and this is something that staff tell me a lot is that they feel there's no nobody telling their side of the story corrections press coverage is very negative. It's never a positive news story. Nobody's their cheerleader. And so we are developing a more strategic communications plan to positively message about what the department's doing. I think Vermonters would be truly shocked at some of the amazing work that is done by the Department of Corrections. Our Department of Corrections is far more proactive in the justice system in Vermont than nearly any other correction system in the country. And those are the messages we need to be telling we need to be talking about the Mike groaners who can walk into a unit and people calm down because he's a trusted voice and he can work through their problems with them. But we also need to be talking about how we're providing high school education and high school diploma, not a GED but a high school diploma to our incarcerated population. We need to be talking about how we're about to roll out community college education to our incarcerated population and our staff. We need to be talking about the reentry services that are immensely successful in the partnerships we have with our service providers. But what we talk about is somebody got fired or there was a scandal at one of the facilities. And some of that is the nature of the beast we understand that and won't change that but we can be better at just flooding the zone with positive communication about the amazing work that people are doing. And that will feed some of that. I'm proud to go to work there and I'm proud to tell my friend that I work in the Department of Corrections. That's where we need to get. But we've got to win all that on the merits. Thank you. Representative Campbell and Representative Bajowski, Representative Baslin. Okay, thank you. Commissioner, right behind the staffing crisis, but I feel like I've heard most in terms of issues with staff is the remoteness of the central office. Yes. And how disengaged central offices with what's going on in the field. And so you mentioned doing monthly meetings with each office or each facility and that sounds like a great start. There goes our redistricting. Back to the old map again. So one question that occurs to me is you also mentioned that money isn't money isn't isn't isn't the issue so much as the culture talking about today. And I don't want to talk about money, but I do want to know that you're looking at streamlining or you're looking for efficiencies in central office to free up money to offer a higher higher pay and benefits and whatever. For staff, I'd like to know that the answer to that is yes. So just are slightly, you know, disentangled from each other. So that's what that's a side issue. I guess the what I'm what I want to ask as far as central offices plans for integrating, re knitting central office into into the work of the facilities and how you can. The things that you're doing to do that to make everybody feel like they're on the same team, including including, you know, the central office, the field staff, feeling like central offices is has their back, and it's working in their interest. You identify a critical problem. And really there's three distinct camps, if you will, the central office, the field and the facilities and each view themselves as distinct entities. So if we can break that down, I think it'll be important and we need to weave, as you said those together, the central office though I mean I think the field facilities view themselves as as siblings and and the central office is like an evil, you know, an impotent force up on the hill. We need to break that down the way to do that I think is through communication, just people do not feel communicated with they don't feel that they have any input in the system that they have don't understand why things are happening to them that decisions are made in a vacuum without, you know, real doers getting to have their say. And so I talked about some of that in my opening remarks, you know, I've created a channel and people can just email me directly and folks are taking advantage. Good bad and ugly. We created the staff wellness committee which is entirely staff run. You have to be a line staff member lower. I'm sorry, a supervisor level or lower so first line supervisor or line staff. I would like to select who they wanted to lead that how they wanted to organize themselves how frequently they wanted to meet and I told them that I would talk to them on any topic they wanted, apart from some of our benefits issues and stuff that that really we have a separate separate bodies that work on those issues to give them a vehicle kind of uncontrolled vehicle to say here's what we want to talk to you about we need this changed or we have some ideas on how to fix this. We also just need to be there more in person in the flesh, walking the units talking to folks all shifts. I've tried to visit on Saturdays and Sundays and I've tried to visit off the hours. I walked in just happened a couple of times and just breaks my heart but I walk in and a guy's been there for 20 years and says, I've never met a commissioner I've never seen a commissioner. What, what are we doing. This is easy, you know, you should want to go talk to those folks they they work for you they're on the line doing it day in and day out. And this is tough work as we were just talking about so all of the senior leaders of the department need to be doing that that's not just a me problem. And getting on the road and getting to our six facilities you know we're fortunate in Vermont that you can get any from Waterbury you can get to any facilities two and a half hours at the longest. So, we haven't come to you and asked for a helicopter or plane yet because geographically we don't really need that here but and we only have six facilities. And it's important to do that with the field to, I think a lot of our focus has been on the facilities, rightfully so over the last couple of years because that's where we're fighting the war against COVID. But the field also just puts it on the line and, and they've really helped in the facilities and so we owe it to them to really be engaged at all levels there too. So, I think it's a largely communications problem, but it's also getting them involved in decision making and explaining even if we even if it's a decision that must be made at the central office it's, you know requires medical expertise through what you know things that that folks in the facilities might not have, they still can understand why we're doing it and that's important. So, that's the way we're going to try to tackle that issue. And I think if people see that the central office does something positive for them, which they have not really felt in a long time but that we're changing a culture that's making them proud to work there making their work life better. Some of that might change might have a better, we might get our approval rating up to like six or seven percent zero. And that's the way we're going to do it. That sounds great. So just, I mean, I guess, knowing that you're that you're really working on getting your, your staff central office staff engaged with with with the field and the facilities just seems seems like a really, really important step. Yeah, you know, but I have to say the central office staff in their own right are extraordinarily impressive. And I think it's sometimes difficult for us to convey what is being done at the central office because often it's here or it's, you know, in meeting rooms at different places, but the complexity of the policy that we have to manage the complexity of the system that we're trying to manage the budgetary implications. I mean, we have 170 ish million dollar budget, almost all from the general fund. That's complicated. And a lot of people want to know every dollar that's spent, you know, so there's really complex work being done there. And so I understand why the divide exists. But we really need to get to a point where we think of ourselves, the department as one team, all working in concert, but we all have our jobs to do and they're different. And then we'll be the same. We'll get there, at least to an extent, just take some time. Great. Thank you. Representative Bajowski and then represent Boston. Thank you. I have a couple of questions and one is a bit of a follow up to the question that you just answered. I think communication and transparency are incredibly important. But if all we're ever doing is talking and never taking action, it's not necessarily going to help as much as taking action. So I'm wondering if you're hearing from frontline staff at the bargaining table or elsewhere as to things that we can actually do to make changes and improve their job. So in the opening remarks, I talked about the small bucket solutions and I talked about some of the other ways that we're just trying to help along the edges, you know, the hotel rooms, things of that nature. All of those, I don't want to take credit for that. I should have caveat it that it'd be good. Every one of those was a staff idea. Individual staff member coming to me and saying, Why aren't we doing this? Why can't I carry in a thermos of coffee? Can somebody explain that to me? And so I then asked somebody else the question, Why can't they carry in a thermos of coffee? And it turns out there's no justifiable security reason. It doesn't make any sense, but it's the way we've always done it. So staff, I think are responding to this and contributing and finding out that they can ask any question they want during our town halls. They can reach out directly and propose ideas. And I think it's making a big difference. We met with some of the labor management groups earlier this year and they provided ideas about the uniforms which we took. All of these things are, those are the little ones. And certainly we have our differences of opinion on budget issues sometimes, but that's healthy and we'll continue to work on that. But where there's ideas that we can do that makes sense and will make a difference, we absolutely pursue them all day. One of the, as a bit of a follow-up, one of the concerns we heard yesterday as our wages aren't competitive with the states around us, is that something that we are looking to change? There's a variety of reasons for that. I think we look at that issue in a vacuum sometimes. We don't have the population that other states do. Vermont, just across the board, not just in corrections, pays lower wages than all of our surrounding states. In many of our states, there's constraints on the state system and different states have different levels of certification and things of that nature. Training requirements, law enforcement requirements that aren't true of the Department of Corrections in Vermont. So I think it is an interesting data point and one to definitely keep in the conversation, but it's not as clean as, well, New York pays more and New Hampshire pays more, why don't we pay more? I will also say, while they do possibly pay more, and I don't know exactly what New Hampshire or New York are paying, they have the same staffing shortages that we do. They're facing the exact same numbers that we are. This is, the shortage of staffing corrections is a nationwide problem faced in every corrections department in the country, and it's pretty universal, irrespective of the pay. Not that pay isn't important. I think it very much is, and we want to make sure we get the right pay to compensate the folks for the hard work that they're doing. But it's a little more nuanced than simply New Hampshire pays more, therefore Vermont should pay the same as New Hampshire. It just doesn't quite work like that. Thank you. So one of the other things we heard yesterday about the cultural environment is that it does not feel welcoming to women and staff. Do you have a sense of what this is about and what can be done about it? I mean, I have my own personal theories on this. I think it that's a tragedy that that people feel that way. We did just hire we reinvented and then hired for senior leadership position for the director of women's services. And part of her responsibilities are to improve the situation for female corrections officers probation pro officers, and also for the incarcerated population. She's also as many of the HCI members now spearheading our efforts on construction of women's facility. It is a male dominated career field. And that shouldn't explain what's happening, or at least it shouldn't justify what's happening, but it's an area that I think we really need to focus on. And we're currently crafting different names for them, but our guiding principles as a department, what are the things we really care about and how we how can we measure every activity that we do against those principles. And one of them is diversity, equity and inclusion, which is critically important, both for our staff and for the incarcerated population that we think through diverse inclusive and equitable lenses while we're crafting policy while we're supporting staff, whatever the case may be. I think that's an area for growth for us, but something we definitely need to focus on. I'll tell you, did you send out the press release. So we made a couple of leadership announcements this morning positions in in the Department of Corrections and two of those two of the three key leadership positions are women. And I think it's not because they're women, it's because they're the best person for the job, and we have a lot of that. So I'm excited for that. I'm excited to continue to find ways to make sure that we have equity in our system. And that we're inclusive, not just women, but but certainly all of the different amazing people that that come into the system. So thinking about your discussion about visiting other facilities and if you think mainly your mind you should check out Norway. Yeah, I've heard a lot about Norway. I would personally love to visit that. Anytime the state wants to send the rest of their facilities are open facilities and they're really focused on education and social engagement. And people can come and go as they please but they choose to stay because they're being provided critical services and supports and I don't know that we're in a space where we're ready to jump to that but I do wonder. What we are doing to shift and streamline. Yes, the culture yet but also the buildings and the grounds that people are in to create that kind of restorative healthy environment which in my view would be healthier for our health officers healthier for our inmates healthier for our society and in the long run healthier for our economy. Yeah, so the main women's reentry facility is of that model. So there are there are no locks on the doors people can roam freely you can walk the perimeter there's no fence. The perimeter is you know don't walk into the highway basically. And that is the direction Vermont is going as we look to reconfigure what the women's facilities in Vermont look like going forward for the men I think it'll take us a little bit longer to get there. But that means how do we retool the facilities we have. I mean the newest facility in Vermont is 20 years old. I'll tell you how old the oldest facilities are. And, and these are huge projects and they're kind of once in a generation construction projects. And so we need to retool some of those facilities to be more accommodating and I think they've you know we've done some of that where we have painted colors that are more inviting and less stark murals have gone up and incarcerated folks have painted mural whole wall murals and things of that nature. But at the end of the day that's window dressing because the facilities are built the way they're built and there's little we can do to reconstruct them once they're built that way. And that's something that was most striking to me about both the main women's detention and reentry facilities is how much light they dry and then it's just more inviting and welcoming and So that's the direction we need to go. That's going to take some time. The women's facility I think will be quicker because we're already starting that process. So I think as we work towards you know the system we want those those infrastructure issues need to be top of mind also because that would make a huge difference for staff. And with that comes programming career training support counseling. What are what does that look like right now for people in the facilities that we have to ensure that they're getting the healing care that they need and the skills that they need to thrive in our society. So you know Vermont has some great Vermont corrections industries and we have some great education programs but we're going to take some time this summer. Once once the legislature is out of session and we have a little more bandwidth to sit down and really baseline our vocational rehabilitation programs are educational programs and the new programs that we have coming online. And I think we're going to do some retooling to make sure that we're actually providing the best skills that will help incarcerated individuals get good jobs in the community when they get out and hence our partnerships with outside, you know, employers, both the state who's desperate for employers employees rather but also private employers who have already come to us HVAC companies saying we can train we can come to your facility train people to be HVAC tax. And then when they come out we can give them a job. I mean, these types of programs there's a direct pipeline from the facility to a much more positive free entry situation on the outside. And so we're doing some of that great work already a chit and in the women's facility where we have an amazing culinary program they get safe serve certifications. And we have partnerships with Middlebury College to increase the work of women incarcerated individuals over there. But I think that's an area that I'm very excited about. And in this summer, we're going to redesign some of that and we'll be excited to share that with you in January and come asking for something. That's great to hear this is my last follow up question. And this is one of the things I heard from both of the people who testified working on the front lines yesterday is we're not social workers.  Yeah, so I think we do that in a couple of different ways and certainly there's there's room for growth there as well. But we do have service providers that provide some of that work so outside nonprofit groups, volunteer groups we do have mentorship, formerly incarcerated and currently incarcerated folks with with newer incarcerated folks. And then we have our case worker staff who do, I think really yeoman's work trying to help people get ready for reentry getting them state IDs, which is a huge hitch and getting employment on the outside. Just an amazing partnership there between the department and the department of motor vehicles and aot to make sure that anybody that needs a driver's license can get one, and we'll go and get all their vital records and get it all set for them. And the case worker sits down and helps them work through that, or helps them figure out their transitional housing plan or where they're going to live make sure they have a residence that is supported by the department. So some that is great work that's done within the facilities by our staff, and then we rely heavily on service providers are partners from the nonprofit community to do some of that. When they're on the outside then we have our community justice centers who can help with a lot of the work on the other side of our fences and many partners in the community to do that too. It's a critical area. So I'm going to move this along the House Corrections and Institutions Committee does have some schedule testimony on something else at 11 o'clock. So we've got three people total and then that that then we'll shift to director Rice. So my question is kind of hang on. One thing I want to be clear, we're comparing to other states, our DOC department and folks think one thing to keep in mind here in Vermont, our Department of Corrections is under the agency of human services. In other states, Corrections is under law enforcement Department of Public Safety. So there is a different that's very, very different. And I think we have to be very cognizant of that that we have purposely had DOC within the agency of human services because DOC is a rehabilitative model. So I just want to put that out there for folks. Representative Bosland and Representative Anthony and we'll finish up with Representative LeClaire. Okay, so my question is somewhat related to what Tonya was just asking about yesterday when we heard the testimony from your different staff members. It seemed like you had some people that are really dedicated and really believe in the work that they're doing. And yet the one area that I found was really alarming was the woman who spoke about working for six months on the mental health unit and how difficult that was and how honestly she never wants to do it again. I mean at one point she said something like the people there need help beyond what we can do. So my question would be two parts. One, what kind of extra services are provided for people in the mental health unit because as I understand it the people with the most challenges do go to Springfield. And then secondly, what do you provide for staff to help make them able to meet those needs and also to cope with the own stresses of working in that kind of environment. Yeah, it's great question. Springfield does get the most challenging pop in I don't mean that in a pejorative way, the most challenging population and they present the most unique attributes that require attention support assistance both our geriatric population, our mental health patients, and, and then some other folks as well. Those are tough living units to work in. And I think, you know, the department itself does provide some mental health work we have a great mental health team that works on that and then we have our health care provider who's ultimately responsible for the provision of mental health care. We have for staff, we have a clinical psychologist who's available to help work through any trauma or mental emotional health needs. But we also have our peer support group which is they're not trained mental health providers, but they're, they are trained in providing support to staff listening things of that nature and I think staff have relied very heavily on them. The state more broadly offers employee assistance programs with access to outside mental health counseling and assistance and things of that nature. But I don't think we've seen a lot of willingness to participate in those programs and so what the department is doing is trying to understand why is there apprehension to access those programs and then how do we, if they're not willing to go through the employee assistance program, can we capture those services and provide them a different way that staff would be willing to because we know how important the access to that is. And so those are some of the ways that we're able to support staff who are working in those units, and just across the board because trauma happens everywhere. And then through our mental or through our medical provider would provide mental health services to the incarcerated. There's a situation where somebody who's incarcerated at Springfield, where their need is acute enough that they're actually transferred to an inpatient facility or. Because I mean it sounded like some of the situation she was describing I was surprised that the people were staying there. One of the challenges will say in the, well at least I've only been here since November but so the second half of coven was the availability of mental health care across the state there was zero availability of mental health beds in our more secure facilities and so in those instances, the individuals were probably continued to be housed at Southern because there was no other option available and that's a tragic situation. And that's where the department has just be flexible and do the best with what the cards were dealt as the state looks to try to work through additional resources. I know, as of this week, and have been for several weeks now, the availability of access to mental health care is much better than it was, you know, in late January. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you, Madam Chair, Peter Anthony from very city. I wanted to reinforce with a little anecdote, at least two of your themes. The love of my life was a major party in overseeing the Vermont State Hospital when it existed. She took great pride in and enjoy was an unannounced visit on the night shift until a yet. And if you can't do it, one of your deputies should have a rotating basis. So I agree with that. Another category of questions or suggestions goes back to Representative Emmons. What can we do as legislators we don't run prisons you run. And my answer to that, I think being in a mega agency with all due respect to the choice of Vermont to place corrections in a rehabilitated model of a super agency, there's invariably pecking orders within those agencies. And one of the things I think I can do or should do is to make sure when you have a need, whether it's because free field cannot help a certain class of residents or mental health services. You call up the Department of Mental Health and say, by the way, I need two beds in Berlin. Now the Department of Mental Health may say, and they have said, thank you, but no thank you, you're not comfortable. That's, if you will, a representation of a pecking order. And that should be something we can do something about. We don't run anything, but we can inquire as to why it is there's immobility amongst certain classes. It's also true if you create more internal pathways amongst mindset that invariably triggers a discussion with the Department of Human Resources in the administration. You may or may not have a welcome, sorry, hanging around your neck. We should be able to assist in that logjam. So there are various things I think we could do. But we need to know, and you need to feel free to tell us, which is another problem, by the way, and then we need to act on those suggestions. So lastly, let me just point out that of having a line of communication and a what if box, what if we did X instead of Y. And the box is emptied by you or a deputy, not somebody, you know, five positions removed from Waterbury would be a sign that it matters. I agree. Thank you. I think he just laid out some tools and I think that's what's really important to have this joint meeting of House Corrections and Institutions as well as House Government Operations. House Corrections and Institutions oversees the policy issues of DOC, but government operations looks at the operations of state government. So there's a real meshing there and I hope that what we've heard yesterday and today will really help legislators understand how we need to move forward in both areas. So thank you. Representative Leclerc. Good morning. A couple observations and one question one I was pleased to hear that a lot of the folks yesterday were acting very positively to the changes that they're seeing. It was very nice to hear that. The second observation is a lot of what I heard yesterday. Some of the concerns are collective bargaining issues. And some of us feel that this body doesn't have any role in that that's that's your job administrations. But my question is, a lot of what I've heard is a change of philosophy. Is there anything about the physical space touched upon it a little bit but as far as we have six facilities should we be looking at consolidating. Is there something about the space that is confining and basically a barrier to getting to where we want to go from the philosophical standpoint. Yeah, it's a very good question. Vermont has a unique system in many ways the unified nature of the system this the number of people we have is quite low compared to any other state or many other states. And then we have six facilities. We have many fewer incarcerated individuals per staff member in the living units than most states most states that living units are much much larger and so you have one staff member for a population much larger than Vermont's. I don't. I mean there are ways to move pieces around the system as it exists now so we could decide to change. There was no longer the housing area for mental health or geriatric we can move it to St. John's very if we want it. You know, maybe not that's not the perfect example but I don't know that there's a need for that right now but I think it's something that considering, you know, are we set up in the best way that we can with the structures or resources staffing monetary that we have available. That's a question we should continue to ask I think that's maybe a second evolution of this philosophy change. Let's get this part right now let's look. Are we set up properly and if not what pieces do we need to move around and certainly that would be a conversation with the legislature. I don't think we're there quite yet. Thank you. Thank you commissioner. I think this has been very helpful to both committees. We've had a view of the boots on the ground as well as the office and I think this is very helpful and thank you. Thank you. So we can keep you in the hot seat. Happy to stay. Thank you to the director. Correct officers. At me, the training Academy James Rice. I know that we also have Matt de Agostino and Al Cormier who are here. I don't know if they had anything they want to weigh in but you can check on those two before we finish up our meeting today but I would like to give time to director Rice, because I know that there was also some questions yesterday from the committee members Academy and training. So director Rice welcome again. Thank you. Thank you for having me. I really don't have a lot to add to the commissioner statements. One of some of the things that he mentioned in his opening remarks, clearly lay out a shift in philosophy of openness and inclusivity and how we're looking to really bring in our staff to help us guide where we're going with training and professional efforts that we're going through. So we're looking at all of the efforts that we're we're we're undergoing now that includes right down to our recruitment efforts. I know some of the the new changes that we've seen recently that we're still waiting on some of the results. And then set up those are already underway, and we're starting to see some of the positive effects. We're seeing things like the commissioner talked about his open channel from staff from training and professional development lens, we've already seen some benefits for that. So commissioner received an email with a staff member a line staff member that presented an idea for a recognition idea for staff, something that we hadn't thought of on her own. And within a few days we now have a protocol that we're working on that's going to allow for a new process. And so I think those open lines of communication that the commissioner talked about really do have a large impact on our training in the professional development. So there's a variety of initiatives that we're working on that we've set some benchmarks to get through over the next year but there really is a kind of an all hands on deck approach to doing whatever we can to support the training and the development that our staff are receiving. Thank you. Are there questions. We have quite a few questions yesterday. I know we touched on this a little bit this morning. Any follow up questions. Representative Campbell. Well, this isn't exactly a question but you reminded me Jim of the idea that I think I think Mike Groner suggested yesterday of having another rank for for the corrections officers. So it's not. You reminded me of it it's not exactly. I don't think it's going to work. But maybe for the commissioner is considered so maybe a CEO one CEO to senior CEO or something like that to again provide a sense of a career ladder to frontline staff. Yeah I heard that from Mike history as well and I think it's it's an interesting idea my question I guess back would be, what is the function of the position. I shouldn't simply put stripes on somebody's sleeve for the sake of putting stripes out there unless there's some real value in doing that. But if there's a function that that role could play, I'd be interested to discuss it. We are set up a little, well, I think many correction systems are different in this way so there's there's a lot of different configurations of rank and titles and things of that. You know he used the example of the state police. And I, you know I don't know that that's a direct analog because they have totally different functionality they have different needs they're spread differently across the state. But I think if there's value in creating another position, and somehow that you know a leadership value or support to staff value, I think it's certainly worth considering. Thank you Madam chair, I, my answer is God is that that distinction would follow a level of training. And that person would literally move from a training environment to a line staff environment at will. That's my answer to why you would do it and the functionality emphasis that you just articulated. Something something something to say to work on, you know, in your free time of which I have an abundance. Questions. Representative don't want them representative Taylor. Thank you so much for all this and hearing all the great work here I think it's helpful for us and it's helping for us to have a better understanding of what's going on where the initiatives and helping us to be cheerleaders for the work and the initiatives as well. And so I'm just trying to think of ways that what can we do with this information that sounds like, as you said the runway is short for this session and that this is good information for us to take into the next biennium. And I was looking for something that popped into my head I remember there was a resolution last year for correctional officers week. And so I didn't know and I think that it's like the beginning of May I don't know if there is a plan for that if there's a way as a legislature we can support initiatives, because I am hearing that need to recognize correctional officers to say like we value you we care and so I think we as a group here are hearing that today and I just want to put that out there if there are ways that we can do that together. For me, I would be on board. I think that is something and actually as director rice is a department that would manage that but I think it is something that is done. And maybe Jim can confirm that for us. Yes, that's correct. It's, it's something that we do annually. And we do have things in play already as far as preparing for the corrections officer week. I think it's a great idea though we're always talking about, you know what can we do to really recognize our staff and show our appreciation and bring others in. And if there are folks here that are interested in getting involved I would be definitely interested in talking more about how we could do that. It's, you know, it's not a tangible thing but I think one of the things that that we hope that will do for you all is, you know, we've provided you with kind of our ground truth on the department and our strategy for how we're going to tackle some of these problems. So when we do come back and we do have needs. We'll try to carefully explain how that fits into this and with your, you know, understanding based on our conversation and the questions that you asked. Hopefully that'll help, you know, we can more clearly articulate why it's such a critical need or how it's fitting into this broader strategy instead of looking at it in a vacuum which is sometimes what the department has done in the past. Representative Taylor. There was something brought up yesterday regarding training that that I know has been discussed several times I'm wondering whether it's still getting any attention. I've been to the facility you might remember a couple of years ago up there that the Academy and visited it and it seemed perfectly adequate. I was asked yesterday that the difference between the kind of facility you have and a new recruit coming to it and seeing the facility as opposed to coming to the Academy at Pittsburgh. It's a whole different atmosphere that's a whole different. You get the sense, I haven't been to the one in Pittsburgh, but I've seen things like this. When you see the facility, I would think as a new corrections officer or as a new police cadet or something, you know, you're going to someplace special and you're taking part in something that's important. But if you go to the facility up there, it's more, well, here's a building, here's classrooms. It works. I'm staying in a hotel and I get good training. But it's not at all the same in terms of atmosphere. I'm wondering whether that idea of having the corrections officers trained in Pittsburgh is something that's being revisited or needs to be revisited. Do you want to? Yes. So we have a good relationship with the police academy in Pittsburgh and we partner with them. We share training where we can. Currently, there isn't a conversation about relocating our training down there, at least not that I've been directly involved with. I know there's been talks about it in the past and studies. Our training is much different than the training that they do receive. One of the focuses that we have here at the Corrections of Training Academy really is on the training content. So historically, when we relocated the training program to this building, it caused us to change how we look at training. We really try to focus on the content, the training, what are the actual skills we're delivering. And it forced us as a department to really prepare ourselves to prepare our staff, regardless of where we may be delivering that training. So it was an opportunity for us to look at training and how we deliver it and what are the actual skills we're trying to deliver. And we're going through that again in an effort to increase that training. The building, it is what it is as far as it's not a spectacular building here. We feel it's adequate as far as it meets our needs. It is an imposing building that has that kind of aura when you go to it like the campus at Pittsburgh. There are some stark differences in the training that we do, though. Our training is far less paramilitary. It's a shorter term. We really focus on trying to make our training a welcoming experience for our new staff. Some of the staff that come here, they have worked anywhere from a week to maybe a couple months at their facility before they come here. They are employees and we treat them as employees. They're corrections officers and it's been a philosophy of ours over the last several years to really make efforts to make people feel welcome when they're here and focus on the learning and the skills that they're going to need when they transition back to their facilities. We incorporate bringing the facilities here some so that they're getting some exposure to the staff and the leadership at facilities. So while they're here learning, they're keeping contact with their own facilities they're going back to. But given the timeframe that we have folks and the current philosophy that we just want to support our employees to get what they need. That's really what drives us as far as how we design our training. One question for the commissioner. I noticed when you responded to representative coffee's question about training you said that there were 40 hours that they can do training you didn't say that they're required. Our corrections officers required to do yearly training or is it just made available? Sorry, yeah, that might have been a misspeak. So what I was trying to convey is there's a lot of time that's negotiated into the contract that we pay for them to participate in training. There are core competency trainings and other required trainings that occur annually. That they are required to take. Correct. Well, thank you. Dr. Rice was very helpful and I also were wrapping up but I also want to extend any words that the interim deputy commissioner Matt DiAgostino or chief of operations out for me if they will have anything that they want to add or if they just want to stay silent that's well that's well too. So, in terms of deputy commissioner, DiAgostino. Any words? Morning. No, I think that my colleagues have well covered the subject. So nothing more to talk. Thank you. And out for me. Chief of operations out for me. I have nothing further to add either. Commissioner demo and director Rice did a great job. Although we have going on right now. Right. Thank you. Is there a question. Okay. I have a question and I don't really know who the right person to ask the question is but one of the things we heard yesterday is that having sort of contracted in health care and services is a different culture than corrections culture and I'm wondering if there's been any conversation about bringing those services back under the arm of state and employment so that it is sort of a universalized set of cultures and values and not conflicting. Yeah. A couple of parts to that we do try. And I think this is particularly true of our health care providers but we do try to think of ourselves as one staff with respect to who their ultimate employers and most of the health care staff. So who the contractor is stays. So if the contractor leaves the staff remains and many of our health care staff have been there for 1820 years. And so and we really value them and are glad they're part of the team. There's not an ongoing discussion at the moment about bringing health care in particular back into the state system. But a lot of conversation about this nationally about which model actually works better. And their health care and corrections is challenging. And so is the state run system function better that you know they each have their drawbacks and we'd be happy to talk about that at some point if that's interesting to you all. But there's not an ongoing conversation to bring that back in and make it a public service. Thank you. So we have another question for Taylor. Just I was you were to the first five things at the beginning. And I would have had a sixth although you've covered it recently and that's the facilities in terms of upgrading. And you mentioned CRCF. And I think it's great that you visited so many of them myself. And it's truly impressive. And it's good to see that department moving in that direction which I'm sure they are. Everybody I've talked to. And also you mentioned that this change in the facilities is a lunch on the generation thing. And I think that's coming up in January when we have this. I don't know people on the other committee may not know we have a consulting firm coming in to work with DOC and BGS and plan the corrections facilities for the next 20 years 10 to 20 years as well as CRCF. So this is a great opportunity to look at how the policies that you're developing could fit into the kind of structure actual facilities that we're talking about in the future. With regard to that there is the American Corrections Association does audits and evaluates facilities for their airflow for you know they do every three years they do an audit if you belong to that association. We don't but and currently the only facility that people are for monitors are actually incarcerated in that is certified by that organization is the one in Mississippi. So it would be really good if as we're working towards changing our facilities. We can get it belong to that organization and have regular certifications. The difference being that mental health facilities are required to do so because they're receiving CMS funding. So they have to get audited and certified but corrections because it's not receiving those funding doesn't have a lot of oversight from an independent organization be it federal or be it a certified organization. But it would be really good if in the future we could work towards that model where an outside agency audits our facilities and make suggestions as to how things could be improved just in terms of the facility but also in terms of the programming within which is also part of the full certification process. Okay. Thank you for the recommendation. So that's some food for thought for us as we move forward. I'd like to tie this up. I want to thank you commissioner. I want to thank you deputy commissioner chief of operations and the Academy director or administrator. And I want to thank the House Government Operations Committee for participating in this. I think it's a joint venture. And I hope it's been very helpful and educational and folks on both sides of House of Ops folks have questions about corrections and policies some of the questions that came up with mental health. What are we doing? Attention and recruitment. There's some initiatives that we've already been putting in place somewhere down a few years ago and some are now still working through our current legislative process and vice versa. I've asked corrections and institutions committee members have questions about employment and benefits pay classification that's in the realm of government operations committee. So I hope we can engage in some conversations here and how we move forward. And I know the session is drawing to an end. We have about seven more weeks but we can still do some work. So thank you all it's been and thank the SCA coming in yesterday was very helpful. And we've had a very well-rounded conversation and I think it's been very productive on all ends. I want to thank you all. So we're done for this meeting. We can finish up. I'm off of YouTube and House corrections and institutions committee. Please take a 10 minute break.