Hi folks, I'm Mike and I hope you're well and welcome to another edition of creative studio live Where we debate all kinds of things musical and recording and I'm joined as ever by my co-host and partner in crime Mr. Pete Johns. Pete Johns, what have you been up to this week? Apart from having the audio playing in the background while we're trying to livestream not much Mike I'm an absolute professional at this stuff. No, it's been it's been a busy week I've been doing a lot in the GarageBand realm and looking at some amp sims the stark amp sim by Cleve Grant Which I've played some bass with that was fun looked at automating volume in GarageBand my DAW of choice and even looked at how you can Capture song ideas using just your iPhone. So yeah, we've had a an eclectic bunch of videos over on studio live today this week But what has been happening in the world of creative source over there? I hear you've got a new desk in the works you got all sorts of things going on over there I have I continue to pretend to be a handyman, which I'm really not so, you know It's taken me three weeks so far to build this desk and it's only half done There's a lot more to building a studio desk than meets the eye But apart from that I did make a sort of tutorial video on cakewalk by BandLab again And it's really about how to get going So if you're just kind of thinking about getting into home recording and testing out some DAWs And that might be a good video start off with but we must move on to our actual debate now I've seen this discussed here and there around the internet this topic of Artificial intelligence music now also we're specifically talking about composition here not so much about playing Because I think we kind of know that computers can play music. Yeah, but this is about Can computers create can actually compose music? So For the views at home What happens here is myself and Pete will be debating this but neither of us know which side we're going to be Debating on as of yet And that's going to be decided with the an Australian 20 cent piece For the 20 cent yeah, if I can flip this I'm gonna drop it one day, but I'm gonna flip this I'm gonna let you call it.  I'll tell you what you've got here though It's a head. It's a head. Yes, there's Queen Lizzie herself there. So I Think it's the first time It's gone my way But I'm doing the scoring tonight and so I think I could win a couple of things So I'm gonna choose I'm gonna choose I'm gonna go against artificial artificially intelligent music Being good and I will know that not can I write music, but will it be good music is the the question up for debate? It's okay. I'm changing all my points, but yeah, yes It adds it adds a qualitative rather than quantitative element to the question. So So that should help you in your It is He's gonna be a tricky task so round one. I'm gonna say Pete John's you can start off with round one What is your the first point point you'd like to make about this? So what is my first point? Well? AI music so I actually asked my audience about this as well And I'm not gonna steal any of their ideas for my first point because you know that I like to cheat in these debates So I'm gonna I'm gonna save my cheating for probably points four and five when I've run out of ideas, but so Mike I believe you make YouTube videos Well, I do too and what are the challenges so you and I are lucky we can create our own original musical compositions Right, we can sit down and we can grab a midi piano. We can throw some virtual instruments on there We can add some drums and very quickly. We've got some background music for our videos But you know what there are millions of YouTube creators out there that don't have that luxury and I don't know if you've ever explored the YouTube Audio library the music library that we have. I use it It's it's it's cool, but it's a little limited like you once you've I don't know if you my children watch the unboxing videos And they use the same music on every unboxing video that you'll ever see so for me Yeah, just to interject. I use the same two tracks on every single video I can't find anything better than the two And you're a musician Mike the shame anyway Later what Mike's laziness will be the topic of next week show The the beauty part though is that like AI music like when you can just log on and you can start saying hey I want some music that's got a happy vibe in a major key and has some strings and keys And then you press a button and you've instantly got something that's going to be different It's going to make you stand out That's going to be unique to your own self in your own channel And you can put that behind your videos and you can be happy with that So that is my first point is that in this world of YouTube in this world of videos I think that I am music will be creating all of the background music of every YouTube video within a year That's my prediction. Okay, so This is not a prediction show. This is a debate. Okay, so I'm going to give you minus 500 points there I think we hand the score over to Ricky Ricky you can score But you got to agree with me that was just garbage. But anyway So a fair point. Well, we know that AI music will will be a thing and that's for sure So I like to talk about is a thing that someone will come across called Ava AI VA Now I have to admit and I don't want to concede anything here, but I've had a listen to Ava and It was it was I was a bit shocked. I was like, wow, is that really written by Artificial intelligence in the sense of it was sounded convincing I believe an orchestra was playing a pre-composed bit But after a five minutes or so of listening to I realized it was very very correct um but Sort of formless, you know, it's kind of like listening to a melody which sort of goes That's actually better than Just formless just sort of went on and on and on and there wasn't much space in it And yeah stuff like that. So it's my first. It's a quick point, which is bloody unusual for me. Actually Where's the rest of your point? I'm saving my other points until a bit later, but I'm saying here's just Ricky Ricky's scoring. Here's a Rick My main point is it's musically correct. Yes, but formless just Formless dry and bland. Yeah, that's my point. That's your point. Okay. That's my point Yeah with that one. All right. Yeah, it's an interesting point back over to you At least I made a point Welcome to those that are here on the live stream as well If you're watching on the replay though, yes, please leave your comments as well And you can leave your own score, which will be in my favor. I'm sure no problem But yes at my second point and I did this a couple of weeks ago I use children because and I got I think I got a million points for it because it's easy Well, once you start bringing children in you can't give me negative points But so it's actually me cheating. So I'm cheating already point number two So what can I do? Well, it can actually teach you about song structure If you're if you're a kid if you've got children and you want to learn about how to compose and how to create songs And what works well together? The good thing is that Ava and these other AI music composition tools they use a lot of the Historical works so I heard a song that was produced by AI that grabbed all of the songs of the Beatles and then it Produced it composed a Beatles like song and it used the same sort of song structures the same sort of have the same Lenin McCartney five that we all love But it was an original piece and for me I think that learning about melody harmony chord structures song composition All of that is going to really help the children and let's be honest the children aren't interested and less something can happen automatically because Well, I was gonna say they're lazy. No, that's that's not true, but they they want things to be Automatic they want things to be computerized. They don't want to mess around like what child is going to sit down at a sequencer and Programming every single note of everything or get a piece of I get a staff and right on the treble cleft and the bass cleft And actually compose that way. No, they want a head start. They want to be able to have something so AI composition gives our kids a head start to then create the best music that they ever can Okay, so well, I've got not much for a comment on that. I mean Ricky, please Maybe he's got me a minus 500 anyway. Look, okay rubbish second point there Pete, but Well, I want to move on to I'm glad you mentioned the Beatles in your point because I knew the Beatles had to come up because You know, whether you like the Beatles or not, it's hard to deny their composition skills really Now here's the thing. I was watching a really really interesting video I can't say which who it was by because I remember but It was one of those musical breakdowns and it was of a Beatles song called something. Yeah, do you know that song something? Yeah, well, I don't want to sing it copyright strike and all that but you know Well, I've got to say, you know one of my favorite Beatles songs. I think it's anyway that we're doing a breakdown of it and Here's the thing is that it broke some rules in music and Well, we talked about this on the last week show a little bit about, you know, musical theory and the fact that it It shouldn't really prescribe What you're doing it should describe what you're doing and even within musical theory Most of the things that we do unusual can be described But in a couple of videos I watched about this Beatles song something There was a certain particular chord in there and they said there's just no way to explain this in musical theory It's just out there. It it it's so it breaks any rule We've got and yet it sounds so natural and so beautiful And here's the thing I contend that AI is not going to be able to do that because that's a moment of Inspiration from I think it was written by George Harrison that particular song Which I don't think I don't think a computer's gonna be able to do that. So that's point number two from me Yeah, that's that's a really good point the problem the point you're missing there is that George Harrison is actually a robot Yeah, well you can never die because he's a robot, but no He was sent back in time to keep the Beatles together because he was actually he was a star Anyway, we'll talk about that another day Ricky, I hope you've taken points away for this garbage here I've got a question for you Mike So have you ever used a drum machine or a beat sequencer or a step sequencer? You ever used any of these devices in any of your music creation? Yes, but I go before you get on that I never ever use any of the the pre Set beats no, it's just a thing of mine. So you might want to ask someone else that question, right? Well, yeah, well, you know that the most popular drum machine is the probably the Roland TR 808 Yeah, I do it. Yeah much undisputed and what the 808 did is it brought a whole lot of preset rhythms There are Beastie Boys tracks. There are 80s hip-hop funk tracks of all types that have used an AI beat Sequence already so AI in some form artificial intelligence has been around for a very long time And it's been around since the 80s been around in the 90s been around in the naughties and it's still around now So anyone who has ever grabbed any sort of electronic Randomized that function. How cool is that when you get a step sequencer and you hit the randomized button? Hmm, you get a cool sound you get something that's different something that's unique so I would argue that we've been using artificial intelligence already and This is just the next step that we can actually take it and we can create something unique and different And you're already using it every time you every time you slap a virtual drama track on any of your songs You're actually using that the intelligence is already there.  I will draw you back to the question though. Is can I I Write good music. It's not can it write music my goodness Ricky t brown. I hope you take a note of the garbage. We're getting here from Adelaide, Australia tonight I'm jet-laid. I've flown all the way from melbourne to Adelaide about an hour ago So I'm claiming jet lag is my reason if I What's going on with the shirt tonight, please? Uh Checks are back in luckily. I bought this shirt 10 years ago when checks were in and they're coming back in so I'm actually fashionable So It looks it looks good on you. It looks good on you. Um, it almost matches your sofa.  So Uh, yes, a little bit. I'm glad we get to see the treadmill again tonight though A lot of folks don't actually know that that's a treadmill because there's like why is there a floating black blanket in your background Because I'm a real person and this is a real channel. We're doing real music. All right. What were you for? Okay, so let's take a look at some elements of music. We have Melody And and most of the music Works within certain frameworks in western music Um, and we can create fairly predictable melodies from that. We have harmony Um, and and western music has developed some fashions in harmony um, and we have Uh rhythm and again western music has developed certain patterns, you know, which are common So a I can use all of these things to create Um artificially intelligent music However, there's an element to music which cannot be quantified in that way and this is human experience A massive part of what makes music Resonate with us is the background to it. The fact that the guy has a relationship breakup or fell in love in the first place Um, and has some life experience and that is the missing link. That's why Um, artificial intelligent music will never really quite make the grade so That is what I contend is is is the um, that is always going to be the issue for artificially intelligent music The lack of life experience So you're saying robots don't have life experience. Robots can feel the emotion. I am saying that You didn't watch the show westworld those robots had to oh that was fictitious. My goodness me. You're grasping at straws That was a good show though. I did enjoy Very good show, but no my goodness. What's going on with the points here ricky t brown minus minus 256 for that Wow, there you go. Um, by the way, liverpool fc greatest football team in the history of the world No reason whatsoever before I throw out my Point here. Uh, so mike, let me ask you a few questions here. You love your cup of tea, right? You love having I do Do you need an automatic pedal or do you about ball it on the stove every time?  I did I I actually used my teeth to make the holes I just gnawed away at it until you just kept going. What about your car? Drive a manual transmission car or is it automatic automatic? Yeah, you go So what you're saying is that things going from manual to automatic has changed your life has made things more convenient has freed up your time and freed up your Ability to do more things. So having things that start out as manual turning them into an automatic process Means that you can actually take that to the next level now. I've got a quote here So I didn't just say that to make you uh to call you out. I did a little bit But so I've forgotten his name now, but the creator of avi's name is pierre something He's got a french name, which I don't pronounce very well anyways, and I didn't write it down So so what he said is that AI can create beautiful pieces of music and humans Can bring them to life. So that is what I'm contesting here. So we're not removing the human What we're doing is that we are Empowering the human to create more Mic drop Yeah I saw I got bored halfway through that point and I wasn't listening to it No Yeah, I I I still feel like you're grasping but anyway, I just want to go to some comments No, we've got a bit of an expert in in the comments here We've got a t-ball kiss and he's actually got some background in AI. I don't know what his background is But it's more than we've got That's not hard. Yeah so But he's saying that AI Is misused in music because many would like to use it to replace the creator with AI And instead it should be solved to solve some problems which currently lacks a perfect solution I agree with that entirely and I just like to suggest to rick there. Give t-ball a few points So People would like to be on a show. Would you like to make a topic on a show you sound more intelligent than Mike and I? Uh, well, it sounds more intelligent than one of us. Anyway, um, look Let's let's move on here. I this is my fourth point. Now We can't with such a big part of western music Contemporary music is lyrics You know and and in really good music the relationship Between the lyrics and the music is Is really important, you know, certainly in certain bland pop music There's not much relationship between the lyrics and the music but with really fine pieces of work. There is that relationship now That is the one thing if we're going to create music with AI who's going to write the lyrics Where we can say a human can write the lyrics the AI can write the music But then they're not really connected. Are they there's sort of a real amount now People have thought of this of course. I mean, I know I'm smart, but there's other people smart like me and they've thought of this so It researches at the university Toronto and created An artificially intelligent system That to create a song after analyzing an image so you can say it would It was being inspired to write lyrics and it wrote the music as well So it was shown a picture of a christmas tree and it wrote the lyrics for a new christmas song And I just want to read them out to you here. Just a few lines. Okay Lots to decorate the room. The christmas tree is filled with flowers. I swear it's christmas eve I hope that's what you say The best christmas present in the world is a blessing. I've always been there for the rest of our lives A hundred and a half hours ago I'm glad to meet you. I can say I don't want to go any further than this, but honestly There's a link in the description about this debate And it's it's got a link to this actual piece of music that it put with the lyrics and my god It is so terrible. It's really really bad So if this is the best that the best minds in the world at the university of toronto a renowned universe Oh Mate But that's a good point, but in the words of anthony key does nning nang nong nong nning nang nong nong nang That's all I have to say about that.  Yeah, I was I was you're watching a video about repetitive lyrics. Okay I was and it did raise a song by one of our other antipodean friends miss kyle minogue And I think it's the most repetitive song ever It goes something like this.  Yes It's more than I care to think about I just can't get out of my head I think there's more than I care to think about Um, there's a dark secret in me. No, no, no, no, and that's the whole song. Um, yeah So human beings can write rubbish lyrics, but I still say at least to add the repetition going for it I mean if this computer in toronto university had written Let's decorate the room the Christmas tree is filled with flowers. Let's decorate the room the christmas It would have been on to something but you didn't even think to put repetition there. Anyway, that was my fourth point I think we're going to get to your Fifth and final. Yes my final my finale, which I'm looking down here It's two words and I'm like, oh my goodness. I really didn't plan that well So I'm going to go there. Um, but yes, I should be so lucky lucky lucky lucky to win this debate But I think that was the best point that you've made. I think it deserves you maybe three to four points. So, um, well Ricky brown said it was out of the park and gave me Oh points. So no one cares what you think Well, uh, yeah, I'll I'll I'll give my final point. Um, and then I'll yeah, we've got some time here I've got some folks that are over on my channel. I've been kind enough to give me some some points So we're like, I won't use any of those just yet because that would be cheating and uh, I don't cheat. Well, I don't cheat much so Yeah, I'm gonna I'm gonna go with something final here and it's a fairly weak closing point here, but uh, the whole process of Music recording. So when you're thinking about AI and when you're thinking about The ability to do things and how technology has helped us grow and develop as composers. So Originally when you were creating music, you could play it live To an audience and every instrument needed a player and everyone had to play together And everyone had to play perfectly together in a live environment We then developed the ability to record music and then suddenly we could record That whole orchestra together onto one mono track and then we could play that back We then developed stereo so we could actually have a left and right spectrum We could suddenly record a stereo field. We then had four track recorders We could suddenly record four individual separate instruments at once and then we could combine those all Cassette tape was invented and we could start actually recording and keeping that on a re-writable medium digital Came along and suddenly we have an infinite number of tracks that are only limited by your imagination and your computer's processing power And now I can write a 32 track song on my mobile phone So I asked you this without the progress Would someone that was a purist that said only the orchestra must play their orchestra music live in the concert hall The first time they heard that evil photograph playing that same orchestra through those big horn things I think that's what they have on then then would they be going? No, this can't be done. So progress is happening. My friend We are just on the bus and the bus is not stopping until it reaches Nirvana oblivion Could you tell him a little bit uh a little bit learious here? I haven't seen it a whole lot the last two days All right, that was your final point. That's my final point. Bring it on home. Come on. Okay I'm gonna leave you with a final point. I did mention the University of Toronto. That's in Canada, isn't it? It's somewhere there somewhere My geography is not the best. No, I know it's in Toronto. Anyway the fella Who who was in charge of this department and you know, they developed this neural network I say that as if I know what that means. I've got no clue what a neural network is but um But uh, he developed this neural network and and they wrote what was described in this article as The very creepy Christmas carol I think it's amazing Anyway, the particular chap in this article spoke to this professor called Hang Chu at Toronto University And he's he was what he had to say himself about it Music is not something where if you throw enough data at it data and hope and Hope that the algorithm can figure it out that it will work. So he basically conceded himself that Although, you know, it could sort of do so much Just uh, I wasn't really going to be able to create good music and uh, so that comes from someone With a phd Just saying That's my that's my final point Your final point is listen to experts all the time and just listen to people that know better than you Yeah, yeah so for the people watching for the people on the live stream and Thanks for I just want to say hello to osta allen who arrived late, but um, No problem. It's good to have you here. Um If you don't know the format of the show, then we do sort of artificially debate in the sense that we throw a coin to see Which side we will be taking And um, now that we've debated the five points. I'll let ricky Total up the the final points and determine who a winner was But it is at this point that we are now free to speak our own opinion our true opinion So I'd like to throw back to my co-host the ever-handsome and and knowledgeable mr Peter johns And ask him what does he really think? Now What what what do I really think so? Most people know that I like to sit on the fence and I like to have a view somewhere in between so I think that artificial intelligence is Actually not going anywhere and it is going to start doing some things for us now. What are those things? Well, they are some things and some of the points I made here I actually do agree with a little bit which is that I think they can actually help I think they can help with people learning about composition I think that they can help people that are getting started out My thing that they can shortcut some of the processes I for one use a virtual drummer on a lot of tracks and it's a lot easier than sitting down and hand programming everything I don't I don't feel that we need to do that every time however Yes, I as a musician and as an artist I do I believe that we do need to actually Have human involvement in music because it is a Generally human emotion, but the the musicians of the future I mean again I made the point around the the analog instruments versus automatic instruments or Or electronic instruments that we have these days that was all poo poo The the musicians of the future may well be the humans that are actually programming the machines that are making the music so That is that is my opinion And I'll throw back to you But then yeah, I've got I've got some opinions from some of my viewers that I wouldn't mind Rounding out with here at the end, but I'm interested Mike Do you do you really believe or do you actually think the machines should be making all the music? Um, no, I'm not I'm not going to sit on the fence this this time I'm I'll let you I can normally see both sides to an argument Uh, but I actually agree with myself this evening Um, I I think that there's a difference obviously between creating music and creating good music and Um, a plethora if I might be as bold to use such a big word a plethora of people on the planet can write music but only a small number of them can write good music and You know, there's lots of reasons for that Um, and and I can tell you that one of the reasons that some people write such bad music is because it's so generic and it's Or it's so base. I mean we all Inspired by previous music that we've heard but it's so based on everything they've ever heard that it just comes out as You know, just and no one wants to listen to bland music And so I think the artificial intelligence is certainly capable of creating music I've heard some which as I say, I was reasonably impressed with the aver music um, however You know, I'm not going to have it played at my funeral That's that's the acid test for all music. Would you have it played at your funeral? That is a good point and uh, and some of my viewers agree with you So, uh, yeah, what do they have to say? I'm I'm interested. Yeah. Yeah. So, uh, I've got a few here and I know these folks Uh, what's what's your channel and the ones that don't I will I'll re-encourage you by the way before you get into that Sorry to interrupt you, but I have been declared the winner. Just Yeah, yeah, you had 1500 and I had like minus a hundred when you went to your point So I don't think I had a chance there unless you bomb sadly So yeah, Ricky Ricky's the good fellow that he is and I trust him because he's obviously extremely wise He was good when he was on the show and he he's given me 1700 and he's given you a hundred Well, at least I got off the mark And I even tried to compliment his football team. So there you go. So yeah, it's about to What your So falcon wings, uh, one of my subscribers and a really good really good point That was really long and too long to read out, but then he just said artificial big gets artificial I'm like, that's a very that's a very good point. Uh fried me fry said ai has no emotions So, yeah, it's talking about the emotional connection with music. Um, we had, uh, Expletive ai which From michael wilson. Thanks, mike Uh, and americae who's on my channel a lot said complicated. Yes, but no Uh, yes ai could create literal real music, but no, it wouldn't be interesting for longer than like a month Well, I don't know about that aromasia because that christmas carol would be interesting to me I'm looking that up and Look out for that on my channel. There's going to be a cover of that christmas carol because that was fantastic And I do it. I want to hear that release it And here's an interesting thing I found that you won't have much problem releasing it or at least in america because um in in the many bits of research I did in preparation for this debate Um, they were discussing the copyright issue With with artificially intelligent created music and in the united states and the copyright laws You know, there's all sorts of definitions definitions about whether something is original or not whether it can be copyrighted Okay, so an original melody and so on and so forth, but one of the criteria is it must be created by a human being So there you go. So you can grab that um ai music and you can You can make a million dollars from it. Pete. No one's got anything to say about it Well, that that that is that is a bit harsh and I know I did read a lot of negative comments there But uh, my friend my friend jade star who's an excellent creator and does use a lot of Amazing ai and uses a lot of ios devices to create music says uh, and I'll this will be my final point about this If it has the ability to create goosebumps raised raised hair or an emotional connection Then why not so uh, yes The the the proof will be in the point is if a our music can actually do that for us So I think we need I think we need an ab test I think we need I need to uh, create some ai composition and we need to do ai versus human that could be an That would be an interesting video, and we tell all the difference between a robot and a person Composing a song and which would you prefer? Um, I think I think we've got an idea for a future video I'm either we definitely do Yeah, it's a bit scary isn't and no, I think when musicians are discussing this they've obviously especially if they're a composer like Like we are um, then then naturally they feel threatened by this whole concept So so they're likely to argue. Oh no, you can never do what I do. I'm special Um, and and so so we are a bit biased on the whole topic The one thought I did have though Is is the don't be so worried about this I don't think the community of musicians should be as concerned as they might be about this because Here's what I contend if ai music does begin to create some really fascinating music, which is perhaps successful It will only push human composers to get better at their craft and do things that ai might not think of because I do think that we are this is an old guy talking of course, but I do think that we are in a bit of a bland time with music on the whole That's just my opinion. Um, but if if if I you know when you listen to music that was being created, which was being sold In say the 1970s bands like genesis or something like that the musical content was Absolutely incredible And and I'm sure it's around now and that people have a go at that, but Um, it doesn't seem to be very Prevalent or in the charts now What I'm saying is is that well, let's leave ai to create that bland predictable music And humans can get back to doing what they do really well, which is really creative music So that's my two cents. I I love it. And yeah, I only have one more thing to say which is I'm diving into my con's point here because you know spoiler alert mark and I prepare Alternate arguments in case the coin flip goes the other way. We don't actually rig that So one of my con points was that uh music is art and art is a human endeavor. It's not just about matching colors and shapes Okay, maybe edm, but real music needs heart and soul. So yeah, but you should have that public t-shirt Right, I've just isolated a big t-shirt. It's quite long A very long one And then I'll just get punched in the face. Can you say again? Can you say again? I was only the absorber. I guess I'll absorb it again. Uh, so music is art and art is a human endeavor It's not just about matching colors and shapes. Okay, maybe edm, but real music needs heart and soul That's that's actually quite beautiful to be honest with you. Um It's here happening here. See see I see ai I could never write that It would say Christmas tree is up full of fruit and it would just be like I think to take the show out like we should create. I don't know what the melody was I'm gonna try and put I'm gonna I'm gonna just ad-lib here in melody. So Give me a bit. Give me a bit Lots to decorate the room the Christmas tree is filled with flowers. I swear it's christmas eve I hope that's what you say There you go In the moment folks. So thanks to everyone for watching this show. We've got a few minutes over If you'd like to catch this um each week then um, I do need to suggest to you that you uh Can subscribe to pete john's channel as well as mine because we do Alternate them and so next week it is going to be on pete john's channel And he will be in charge so to speak. Have you got any idea what the topic might be yet pete? I really don't uh, yeah, I did mean to come up with that during the week So I could tease it here But I'm going to tease it by saying we'll be determining that and what you should do if you're watching on the replay Or if you're watching live after you've given it a like if you've found this show I'm using and you liked our little outro there Then yeah, leave a comment there and let us know what you would like to see us debate in a future video because we Take most of our ideas. We're very non-creative people despite the names of our channel So we like to steal ideas from other people. So please help us because we've got nothing Brilliant and and I'd I'd love for more people to join us and join in the debate Because I will leave you with this final thought a debate is great, but there's nothing like a mass debate I was about to congratulate you for our show without any dublon tundras or uh or suggestive dirtiness So uh, yes, thanks for joining us in the comments and we'll see you next week. Bye. Bye