go ahead and get started. And as you can, as our audience members can tell, they'll keep coming in, they'll keep pouring in. But you can tell we've got two wonderful guests today. I am thrilled and just honored that we are ending this women's work series on such a high note with a conversation with two women who also happen to be very close, long time friends whose work and writing and curated shows were at the center of second way feminism and the feminist art movement who helped found groundbreaking institutions in the early 70s, like the Artist and Residency AIR Gallery in New York in 1972, which was the first nonprofit artist directed and artist maintained gallery for women artists in the US. And the magazine heresies a feminist publication on art and politics, which was a journal dedicated to creating a living record of the conversations and issues in the 70s, 80s and 90s. And it initiated a public discourse and incredibly necessary public discourse on sexuality, race, politics, violence against women, among many other issues. They both have built international reputations and continue to exert considerable influence on the art world and on their own communities as artists, authors and activists. I'm so thrilled and so grateful to be able to welcome Lucy LaParde and Harmony Hammond as our guest speakers today. Next slide, please. So I am Chris Morris and I am the senior field director for the Los Angeles office of the National Trust for Historic Preservation. I also happen to be the manager of the National Trust where women made history initiative. And for those of you who may not be familiar with the National Trust for Historic Preservation, we are the nation's only nonprofit advocacy organization dedicated to saving historic places. But our work goes far beyond the act of preserving a physical structure or historic interior or a designed landscape. We believe that these places are meaningful and powerful because of their connections to people and the stories that they can tell us, the lessons that they can teach us in the many ways in which we all continue to be inspired by both their struggles and their successes. Next slide, please. At its heart, the where women made history initiative is a manifestation of the National Trust's commitment to tell a more truthful and more equitable national story. And as the last two and a half years have brought into focus the myriad racial inequities and injustices across our country, so too have they revealed the deep inequities that sadly continue to be faced by women, particularly women of color, indigenous and LGBTQ women. But by bringing respect and recognition to women's achievements, honoring the many ways in which they have changed their own communities and changed the world and supporting their place-based work in their own communities, we move closer to a reality in which women's contributions are understood as equal and are valued as such. Next slide, please. I know everyone is anxious to dive into our conversation with Lucy in harmony as am I, but I'm afraid we have to do just a few quick logistics first, so so bear with me. Today's virtual program is brought to you by where women made history in concert with the women's work exhibition at Lindhurst, which will be part of the focus of our conversation today. Lindhurst is a national trust historic site located in Territown, New York, and if you are in the New York area and you have the ability to visit the Hudson Valley before September 26 in the exhibition closes, I cannot recommend strongly enough that you make the trip to Territown to see both the stunning Lindhurst mansion and the women's work exhibition there, which was curated by Rebecca Hart, Nancy Carlisle, the senior curator of collections at Historic New England and Howard's are the director of Lindhurst women's work brings together over 125 pieces of artwork and domestic objects spanning 300 years of women's creative production, and it tracks the deep pervasive and continuing influence of the domestic craft tradition and the practices in contemporary women artists. Today's event will consist entirely of a conversation with Lucy Lafart and Harmony Hammond, but we will take questions from the audience throughout the webinar. So please send us your questions directly via the Q&A function in Zoom, and you're welcome to submit questions at any point, but we will be waiting until the Q&A section closer to the end to answer the audience questions, but please do put them in there throughout. Also note that there is a closed captioning function is enabled for this webinar for anyone who would like to take advantage of that feature. And last but not least, please note that this web presentation is being recorded. So following the program, we'll send out a recording of today's webinar series directly to the email you used to register, and you can find all of the webinars in this series on savingwithplaces.org in a link that is being provided in the chat right now. So now that we've taken care of the logistics, it's time to turn our attention to our featured speakers today in our conversation with Lucy, Arlapard, and Harmony Hammond. Lucy Arlapard is a writer, activist, and sometimes curator, author of 20, I think maybe more than sometimes, author of 25 books on Contemporary Art and Cultural Criticism, including From the Center, Feminist Essays on Women Art, Eva Hess, Mixed Blessings, New Art in a Multicultural America, The Lure of the Local, Senses of Place in a Multicentral Society, and more recently, Undermining, A Wild Ride Through Land Use, Politics and Art in the Changing West, and Pueblo Chico, Lands and Lives in Galasteo since 1814. You're essentially your town's local historian. She has co-founded various artists and feminist and activist organizations and publications, and she lives off the grid in rural Galasteo, New Mexico, where for 25 years, she has edited the monthly community newsletter of Puente de Galasteo. And Harmony Hammond is a leading figure in the development of the feminist art movement in New York in the early 1970s. She was a co-founder of AIR, the First Women's Cooperative Gallery in New York in 1972, and Heresies in 1976, a feminist publication on art and politics. Hammond's early feminist work combined gender politics with post-minimal concerns of material and process, frequently occupying a space between painting and sculpture, a focus that continues in her work to this day. Her work is represented by Alexander Gray Associates in New York City, and she will have a solo exhibition there in April of 2023. Her other upcoming exhibitions include Queer Threads at the San Jose Museum of Quilt and Textile starting in May of 2023 and Braided Histories at the LA County Museum of Art, which I'm very excited to see, which opens in September, September 17th of 2023, and then we'll be traveling to the National Gallery of Art in March of 2024. So please, everyone, join me in welcoming Lucy R. LePard and Harmony Hammond. Lucy and Harmony, thank you so much for being a part of this conversation about women's work, the exhibition, as well as women's work within the larger sphere of women's artistic production. Now, I know that two of you have been friends for decades, and slightly more recently, you've been neighbors in Gallisteo. Can you start by telling us a little bit about your friendship? How did the two of you come to know each other? And I'm very curious to know what has this friendship meant to you in your life and your professional work? Jump in, Lucy, go ahead. Either one of you, go right ahead. Oh, yeah, okay. I met Harmony, I think in 1970, and I never buy artists' work, first thing too many of my friends are artists, maybe too much friction and so forth, but also I just never had the money, and people would give me things now and then, which was nice, but I did buy a piece of Harmony's very early on and was a bag. Is that the, that isn't the same one that was in this show? Oh, it's a different one. Yeah. Anyway, which I gave to a museum eventually because my house is 16 by 24 feet, so Harmony's is quite a bit bigger. As artists need that. But anyway, then we became friends through the feminist movement and so forth. And then when Harmony of course came to New Mexico, I think she was saying that earlier, she was living in New Mexico from the 80s, early 80s, 84 or something like that. And then I was coming back and forth. I first came to New Mexico in 1972 and loved it, but didn't see how I could make a living here, which is one of the major problems about this very poor state. And anyway, and finally Harmony, I was down here hiking nearby looking at Petroglyphs at Rockard and Harmony said, take a look at this place, I think even buying and I went by and I looked at it and I thought this whole town looked so foreign to me. It's gentrified a lot since then, but I walked across the bridge to the other side of the creek, which is where I live now. And I thought, wow, this is really interesting and loved Harmony's place, which is terrific. And ended up by the minute when my mother died and had some money for it the first time, I bought some land right across the creek from Harmony. And then before that I had visited Judy Chicago who was living here because her husband, Donald Woodman was one of Agnes Martin's, so was Agnes Martin's eminuences at that point. So anyway, feminists brought me to Gallisteria. Well, what about you, Harmony? Well, I would just add on to that because we do go back and, you know, relationships that go back like that over time are so important because we kind of share a lot and we share histories and activism and, you know, projects together. And that's always so valuable because you don't have to always explain yourself to the other person. They kind of know where you're coming from. I just want to elaborate, though, on what Lucy mentioned about coming to my studio and buying a bag of mine, a piece of mine. This was really important because at that time, which was around, I don't know, 1971 or something like that. And it was the beginning of the feminist art movement within the larger feminist movement, within the kind of political and, you know, many movements, liberation movements that were happening at the time. But I had heard about this art critic named Lucy LePard who was going around looking at work by women. She was climbing the stairs of lofts and looking at work by women and was beginning to curate an exhibition. I don't know if that's the show that the 25 women artists that was shown at the Aldridge then or not may have been a different one. But anyway, I had heard about this. So somebody gave me her phone number. I called her up. And I was too late for her to consider my work for the one of the very first exhibitions of women's art, contemporary women's art, or maybe the first. But she came anyway. And she came, but she came with her son, Ethan, in tow. And I had my daughter, Tanya, who was born in 1970 around the corner in a crib. And she did, we talked about the work. We actually talked about the work and what it meant, you know, and how, what the piece was about, the content, in other words. And then, miraculously, bought this piece. And that, of course, was wonderful because it was the first piece that I ever sold in New York. But what also was really remarkable about our first meeting and my first studio visit by a critic was that we were both there as women, as mothers, and art professionals. And one did not rule out the other. And so I always think of it in those terms as being just so important for that reason alone. And then, as Lucy said, you know, we've been worked together on many projects, especially Heresy's magazine, both of us being co-founders with 18 other feminists in New York. And we also worked on two or three issues, I think two issues together as co-editors of the issue. And then just many projects in New York and in New Mexico. And also, we were both in the fire department. Harmony was a fire fighter for 10 years. And I've been in the fire department for 26 years now, but I'm not a firefighter. I'm just in the bake sale part of it. But she's hung in there. And I was just a volunteer firefighter for 10 years. But yeah, that's part of our community work. Yes. Well, now I think it's so wonderful, the relationship, like essentially the lifelong relationship that two of you had. And it seems like these relationships are so important in the way that you have both influenced each other, bring each other into the work. Because, like you said, you kind of recognize where each other is coming from almost instantly. Can I add something just that I was going to say when Harmony talked about was we were both there with our kids. That was a period when if a curator, a critic, or a collector came to a woman artist's studio, you hid every single evidence of having a child or a husband or anything, but the art to show you were actually a professional and actually serious. You need a baby. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. Don't want to recognize that you actually have other roles to play in life other than just produce art. And that was really something. I mean, somebody who didn't like me much when I had a baby said to me, well, I wish I had a chance to do everything. And doing everything as every professional who's had kids, especially as single mothers, which we both basically were, it isn't easy. No, it's not. And that's that's rather amazing that you both like were so, I mean, not that it was it seems like it was sort of out of a necessity, but it was also there was absolutely nothing wrong with still is never has been never will be anything wrong with having your children involved in your life and your work. I mean, that's just sort of and that gets in, believe me. And Chris, you know, along these same lines and what Lucy just mentioned, the what was in the air at that time in New York, but I think all across the country was, you know, if you worked with fabrics or any kind of work that, well, first of all, you were a woman artist, that was a big problem. But then if you did work that, you know, focused on women's experiences in the world, and especially if you use tools, art making tools like a sewing machine, you put that away as well. So it's really hard today, when we look at the work of women, you know, who are sewing and weaving and doing a range of materials, work range of work with different materials and techniques and tools that are, for instance, in this wonderful exhibition, but there was a radicality to it at that time early on, because it was such a no no, it's really hard to convey what it was like then. And those of us, and Lucy and I aren't the only ones, of course, but there were women across the country, California, New York, but a lot of places in between as well, that, you know, when you started, you had to put that sewing machine away if you were using that as a tool in your art making. Right. But interesting, I'm sorry, go ahead, Carmen, you want to finish? No, I'm done. Yeah. Interestingly, I did a show called, I curated it, my first show called Accentric Abstraction in 1966, and the person, Eva Hesse was in it, Bruce Naumann, people use Louise Bourgeois, but the interesting thing was, is the only person who was using all out textiles was a man, was Franklin Conviner, who lived above me in the loft on the Bowery at that point. So it was, textiles were beginning to really interest her in January too. Well, and to the point that you made, Harmony, that you both made about sort of the radicality of that approach, I wanted to ask you Harmony in particular, but both of you honestly, like, I mean, Harmony, you especially have been known since the early 70s for producing those sculptural works and that were really centered on intentionally the heritage of kind of traditional craft or women's crafts. And you also do that through both your curatorial practice and your activism. So can you talk a little bit about how you used the traditional craft media and processes to imbue your own work with meaning? And then also would love to know how your understanding and use of those materials and practices and techniques have changed over time since you continue to be very actively producing artwork now, 50 years later. Well, first of all, they haven't really changed. I mean, I do work in a variety of formats and materials. But basically, I can say that most of my work for, you know, 50s plus years comes out of post minimal concerns with materials and process to which I bring an agenda and sometimes a queer content. It's what I call or refer to as material engagement. But what happened in the early 70s, I had recently moved from Minneapolis where I had done large-hearted, geometric-hearted shaped canvases because I thought that's what you were supposed to do. It's what was being shown in New York. They were really good, but they really weren't my work yet. And then I had traveled in the summer and for the first time was exposed to art by non-Western cultures, which of course I never got when I was in college. So when I get to New York, I move there in the fall of 69. And I'm going to make this very quick because this is usually something I talk about in, you know, visiting artists' lectures for several hours, and we can't do that here. So I'm just going to go really fast through some things here. But when I got to New York, I was basically making pattern paintings, mostly on paper. And the patterns I was painting were lifted from textiles primarily. So I was struggling along with that. There was no P&D movement or anything like that. At the same time, I was meeting with an art consciousness raising group. The feminist art movement was kind of, you know, blossoming all around. I was contributing to it. It was affecting me. And of course I was talking to other women artists. So I and many other feminist artists at that time, we basically made a conscious decision to abandon the male-dominated side of painting, where we really were not welcome.  And sometimes I would say those of non-western cultures as well. And so I started, so instead of work, you know, painting patterns that I lifted from textiles, I just moved from textiles to fabric, to the fabric itself, to cloth. And these early pieces like the bag, which is in the exhibition, and these presences were all made out of fabrics that were given to me, rags really, that were given to me by women friends. So using the fabric, recycling it, fabric that was given to me by women versus going out and buying new fabric, was literally a way of putting my life in my art at the time. And so I and other artists who were working somewhat in the similar way, there was an intentionality about what we were doing. We knew it was radical and we knew damn well what we were doing. In my case, notions of layering, connecting, building whole forms, the bag that's in women's work came off the wall into space. So these presences I thought of as gendered and larger than life size for the most part. And they were very much about women occupying space, taking space and holding it and occupying it. And the word presence was, which was a no-no at that time, was very consciously chosen by me. So that was the earliest work. And I continued to work with fabrics that people gave me, old worn out clothing, bed sheets, blankets. I mean, I come from a lower middle class background of hand-me-downs and stuff. So this was kind of normal really. And a tradition of women working with leftover scraps of fabric. Or as I think maybe Lucy will talk about later, making something out of nothing with what is at hand. It's literally handy work. So I continue to work that way. And then I also kind of enlarge where I'm getting my fabric in that my first loft was down in Soho just a couple blocks from Lucy's. And it was previously a garment district in Manhattan. And you could still, the dumpsters were full of end cuts of bolts of knit fabric because there were a lot of garment factories still there. And of course those, the workers in those factories were primarily women. But I would then get that knit fabric. And that's when I made these, what I call floor pieces, which kind of occupy as to the presence as a space between painting and sculpture. We were all experimenting. It was a time of post-minimal interest in materials and process and experimentation. And you just called it one thing one day and another thing the next day. But we women who chose to reference women's traditional creativity, we brought a gendered content, like I said, to that way of working. So the floor pieces, like the bag in the exhibition, reference something that had a function, but they are now non-functional as art.  They reference braided rugs. But they also, I think of them actually more as floor paintings. And in fact, I would say all my sculpture, I think of more as painting because that's my background. And I think of painting as an additive process. But anyway, these floor paintings or floor pieces use braided rugs, literally, they're grounded, painting off the wall. And they're also, the rugs are a conceptual grounding or base for the pieces as well. So it's visual and it's conceptual. And then I jump ahead, we're just going to go through years very quickly here. And I start taking the fabric and making what I call wrap sculptures around wooden armatures that reference gendered bodies with the wooden armature being the skeleton, the fabric, wrapped fabric being flesh, and then there'd be a skin of acrylic paint or perhaps latex rubber on them. And I must say all of this, if you notice, there's what are the threads here? Layering, connecting, building from the inside out. What was an early women's movement phrase? The personal is political. It starts here, it moves out. And then I began to expand more with different materials, because I feel that one way to bring content into basically abstract work, which is what I do, is through materials, adding other objects, mixed media, adding other objects or materials, combining it with paint, making what I call uneasy juxtaposition. So I started using fabric, quilts, domestic linens, as well as things like human hair, straw, and building materials, like well, straw could be a building material, but also things like corrugated, roofing tin and linoleum and things like that. And so they became these kind of mixed media, often quite large, installational paintings, which brought in a lot of different materials and a sense of narrative. In more recent years, and we don't have the best images of these here, I realize, but I continue that kind of concern with bringing content into abstraction. And I'm not, I don't rely so much on bringing in other materials anymore, although I do paint on burlap. The canvas I use sometimes are recycled Aikido mats, Aikido being a Japanese martial art I study, coffee burlap, coffee sacks, and I use grommets a lot. So there are very select materials that I use, and it's basically, again, that space between painting and sculpture. And I try to get the meaning, the social political meaning in the paint itself as a material, equal to anything else. And I'll just say, basically, it's all about the surface and what's underneath, what's buried, what's hidden, and what has agency, what begins to visually assert itself up through the surface. And you can talk about that in relation to any group of people that have a history that's been buried or erased or minimized. And that's just all I want to say for now. Sorry to get that wrong. No, that was fantastic. And thank you. I knew that your work was very much grounded in your sort of personal experiences and the materials and the places that were at hand to you. But I did not appreciate just how deeply personal these works were. And Lucy, I am very curious to hear from you as somebody who was perhaps one of the first, if not the first critics who was looking at these pieces, both harmonies and others. What was your response to this in terms of, I know you've, I've read where you've said that sort of even a mediocre work by a woman artist is you find more engaging, more moving, more powerful than mediocre work by men because it connects with you. So talk to us a little bit about your response to some of these early pieces by Harmony and others and how they resonated with you or not. Well, one of the things, we started the ad hoc women artists committee to protest the Whitney Museum in 1970.  I didn't want to be called a woman. I wanted to be one of the boys. And then when I got back, Faith Ringgold, Poppy Johnson, and Brenda Miller, and I started this ad hoc women artists committee and so forth. And then women started gathering in consciousness raising groups. And one of the things that stuck out for me in the consciousness raising was we'd go around the circle and say, talk about your work. And people would say, oh, I do big geometric paintings. And this goes back to what Harmony was like. And I do this in the art world kind of stuff. And then they'd say, and in my own time, we went to sometimes I make these little collages. And sometimes they were cloth or sometimes they had something to do, you often had to do with with the person was political. But I always thought that the political as personal is equally important. Because our lives, when we look back at our influences and so on, it's our families, our ancestry, the stories we heard our grandmothers tell us and so forth, that really made as much difference. And that connected us to this kind of work. And they were early in the Aldrich show that they had in 1971, which I didn't I that was people who had not had a solo show. They for some reason, people been saying it's a solo museum show. But that's not true. It was it was there were so many women I knew whose work I was seeing and I loved. And I had to cut it down somehow. So it was people who had never had a solo show gallery or any other other kind of thing. And in that show, Howard Dean of Pindell made a soft grid, a stuffed soft grid, I did a stuff, a soft sculpture show for a moment at one point right in there. And then Jackie Windsor did a similar, you know, messed up grid with with a little rope knots in it and so forth. And and that was those were really important works for me because I mean, anything soft, I mean, Oldenburg, of course, had already done all the sculpture stuff. But Patty did the sewing, his then wife did the sewing. And in this case, this was this was not what was going down. And also scale, I think made a big difference. I mean, when we were we were in the art world. And so people didn't do little tiny things for most of the time, maybe at home, they did. But by the time you got to showing it, you made it something bigger and had presence like harmony says, and presence was really important for women.  And I tried to do some articles for our forum at one point in the early 70s. And the editor said, we don't want any feature ads. I mean, I, anyway, what we went through and some of that stuff was kind of amazing. I look, I have always liked a lot of different kinds of art. So it wasn't like this was the only kind of art. I'm not an artist. I wait for artists to do something. And then I can write about it. And I keep saying, well, somebody do something like this. Oh, good, they've done it. Now I can write about it. So well, I think you both, you both made very well the point that it is it is difficult for those of us who didn't experience it to kind of comprehend how radical these steps were, particularly just like you were saying, harmony, the claiming of space, the sort of the assertion of a feminine point of view, the assertion of just femininity and domesticity into the art space. And I want to get your sort of thoughts on, you know, as you were mentioning to Lucy that it's not as though it was only women who were practicing in these materials or using these media and even more so today. And we see that these what we call these kind of traditional craft techniques, which like quilting, sewing, ceramic painting that are all expressed in various ways through the women's work show are really being used for a whole host of expressive purposes. And, you know, regardless of some of the artists actual gender or their sexuality or cultural identity, and they're using them to express a whole range of issues, whether that's their familial and ancestral connections, their cultural heritage, laying bare the oppression of capitalism or colonialism or carceral system, all of these things appear in the women's work exist in the women's work exhibition. So do you feel that in contemporary art that these clear connections between the domestic crafts and the feminine gender have either been broken or perhaps made more irrelevant in contemporary art practice where they have been adopted by so many different people? Or do you feel like there's still a lot of value in continuing to understand women that are artwork that draws on these traditions as in some way coded this as feminine or gendered in its practice, since so many people are practicing that way now. I think the fact of the exhibition itself answers that question like, yes, it's still relevant. The work does. So, you know, the range of work, contemporary work, I'm going to say, there have been other shows that have dealt with, you know, work done in the home, work done in the domestic environment, the traditional arts and so forth, but no other exhibit than I know of anyway has brought the two together, the traditional art craft objects, whatever you want to call them, and the contemporary work that references them. And the fact that what we were doing in the early 70s was saying that those traditional craft artworks were important enough that we could use them as sources of inspirations and references in our work. We were saying they were important then. And that's what's still happening today with all the work by Younger, which is almost all the artists in the show than me, but that's what that work says. It doesn't even for a woman to a contemporary woman artist to or any artist even to reference traditional creativity by women is de facto saying that is important. It is of merit to reference. So it is, the show resounds with the answer. Yes, it's relevant, but there have always been some men working with stitching, whether they did it themselves or they didn't. I mean, there were, you know, Samaras, Ellen Shields, even Robert Mapplethorpe back then, there was a show in the early 70s called Soft Disculture, I believe. I mean, there have been different shows, but they, the men at that time weren't dismissed if they worked with fabric or soft materials or sewing, whether they did it or not. But women were, because it was a way that you could dismiss that work by women. And much of it, of course, done in the domestic environment. But I also want to make a point that it was really interesting how all this work and interest with the women's traditional arts, a different say in California from California and New York as important to say, women's house was, remains is, we never have houses in New York. We never would have done a woman house. It just wouldn't have happened that way. And big vacant Victorian sitting around to practicing professional artists, Judy Chicago and Miriam Shapiro. And then a lot of younger women who were getting turned on to feminism as they were getting turned on to art. I know this is simplistic, but they were merging as artists and feminists. In New York, you had this unruly and artistic group. We didn't have one programmatic identification, you know, a definition of feminism or feminist art. And for the most part, it was, we were all practicing professional artists. We self identified that way already. And that made a difference. It made a difference. And it made a difference so that we were very aware when we referenced that we were, we were out there trying to get our work shown in the New York art world.  So we just had, we just took it into our own hands. Well, one of the things that was interesting about this whole movement is it was out of the house, it was getting these things out of the house. But it's funded in the Linder show. It's lovely to see them back in the house. You know, those, those pieces that fit so well. I mean, you have to, I had to keep looking at the catalog and say, is this older or new?  That's just, just great. But anyway, and then Judy's dinner party, of course, really was the major piece that took all these ideas and the china painting and the embroidery and everything and gave it a really grand scale. So scale is always scale and context as well as the content was there in the artist's work. But the scale and context, context, yeah, were something that made it more acceptable to the art world. Can I read a little bit of this thing? Please. I wrote this was, I did something in heresies in 1978. And here's the lovely cover of the women's traditional arts. That is beautiful. And that when my writing was in 78, there was a book called Making Something from, you know, I think, I think they're gonna, no, they're gonna go back and show your, and show that the article that you sent in. Oh, that's okay. You don't have to bother with that. But it was a book called Making Something from Nothing, which was by a man and a woman. And the man's name was first in the, in everything except the title page the woman finally got because nobody would notice it then. But on the cover the man was the lily.  It says, go so experiment, dare, improvise, enjoy every minute and maybe you'll discover as we did that once you start making something from nothing, you find you can't stop. And what's more, you don't want to stop. Now that's the story of every artist. So that was a quote from the book. And so I said, that despite the tone and emphasis on enjoyment, unpopular in serious circles, this sport sounds very much fine or high art. Why then are its products not art? Lack of quality will be the first answer offered and derivative of second, even though both would equally apply to most of the more sophisticated works seen in galleries and museums. If art is popularly defined as unique and provocative object of beauty and imagination, the work of many of the best contemporary fine artists must be disqualified along with that of many craftspeople. And in the eyes of the broad audience, many of the talented hobbyists work would qualify. And let's see, go back. So I won't try to answer the these weighted questions about what is high art, what is craft and so forth. Because we have finally begun to sort of get over that stuff. But I said simply offer them as a way of thinking about some of the less obvious aspects of art making. And it goes on and on. I mean, it's a long, heavy article. But it was fun to think about it in that context of an actual book that was popular. Well, this theme of professionalism is something that has come out throughout the series and certainly is kind of underlying everything about the women's work exhibition, sort of the recognition that there is that all of these represent a professional, a certain level of skill in the creation of the project, the products, but also the constant fight for women who are functioning in the production of art or even in just the production of objects to be recognized as a professional or professional artist. And this has come up as we've talked about artists from this century, as well as artists from the 17th and 18th century. And particularly photographers, people like Alice Austin, who fought her entire life to be recognized as a professional photographer and never was at least not until customously. So really that that idea of this moving this out of the realm of hobby and craft, which I know you've also addressed, but thinking about this is sort of women creating artwork as a part of their professional achievements. And I wanted to kind of raise with you, I'm so glad, Harmony, you said what you said about recognizing that the answer to this question is kind of a resounding yes, from the exhibition, because that's really what it was intended. It was intended in some ways as a direct response to Linda Nocklin's article to sort of say absolutely, of course, there are great women artists, there have always been great women artists and look at this array of them right here. And intentionally positioning it as a celebration of three centuries of women's artistic achievement and craft as opposed to a focus on women's historical sort of marginalization, both systematically and institutionally, although that certainly still exists, I don't think anybody is naive enough to think that it doesn't. Do you feel like one of these approaches is more effective or more relevant? Or do we really need to keep talking about this in both senses, as both a recognition and celebration, but also really being mindful of the barriers that still exist? I don't think they're mutually exclusive. I mean, I think both exist, frankly, because I go back to the work that's in the exhibition, it's there for both of those reasons. I also want to make the observation that this particular exhibition of the historical works and the contemporary works is very focused. It seems to me that the curatorial focus was about choices were based on materials, like kind materials or techniques, and that if one were just looking at creative at the domestic environment, art made in the home, historically or something, there are other kinds of works, contemporary works, which could be realistic painting about that, painting a pile of laundry, painting the dirty dishes in the sink, things like that. But this exhibition approaches creativity in the domestic environment, but from a starting point of materials and techniques. And that's what brings the show together. That's what holds all these pieces together. And what I see is a wonderful conversation, very rich. And also the cross cultural aspect, which Harris says, we did our dandest, we did a racism issue and a whole lot of stuff, but we did our dandest, but it was never good enough. And it really wasn't. That's not just a critique from women of color. We realized later that we had not really gotten it there. But I think one of the major in this article I wrote went on and on about this, but it was class. That's something that Americans don't like to talk about class, period. And we don't even have the vocabulary to talk about class. We did an issue called Mother's Mags and Movie Stores that was about, in heresies, and it was about class. And I remember the collective we sat around a table to start thinking about it, and everybody wanted to be working class. Oh, yes, my grandmother there is a farmer. Well, did you show them the farm? And so forth. I mean, we went through all this political questioning and stuff about our backgrounds and everything. But that is something that class was one of the main reasons that this kind of work was not respected. And that just should be brought up. And then the quilting, of course, has been so important. And the marvelous quilts, these Ben things and all everything before and after and the Aboriginal artists doing things. And really showed that this was great art.  They were absolutely amazing art. And Navajo rugs, which were shown once at the Whitney, under the auspices of a couple of male artists who like the Navajo rugs never was mentioned that the women were making those rugs. There was also a major quilt show. Remember, Lucy, there was a major quilt show at the Whitney.  When was it? I don't know the date off him, but it was like in the 70s or something like that. And it was just, they were hung on the wall as pictorial objects. I had a quote, my grandmother's crazy quilt was on the wall. Well, and that issue of recognition and representation is also a theme that goes throughout this exhibition. In the catalogue, you may have seen that the curator from the New England Historical Society, I mean, there was this conversation about, and particularly the one of the curators, Howard Zarr at Lindhurst said, he thought it would be easiest to find the historical objects and to get those in the show. And it turned out that actually was one of the most difficult aspects of the show, because there is still, for a whole host of reasons, sort of this stigma associated with recognizing these as kind of second tier or lesser works simply because they were produced by women. So that still seems to be applying even as we look back at sort of some of the pieces from our recent history, even though maybe some of that has been challenged and broken down as we look at contemporary artwork. And I was really surprised to hear that how much resistance there is to recognizing the role that women played in producing the historical pieces. Yeah, I was surprised by that too. So I wanted to ask, this may be putting you both on the spot a little bit. I don't know if you've given this a whole lot of thought, but if you had the ability to add an artwork to this exhibition, if you could put your curatorial hats on for a moment, which I know you both wear quite well, if you could add an artwork to this exhibition and it could be historical or contemporary, what would it be? And why would you put it in the show? Well, I had a little list of artists that now can't find it. I mean, there are there are many an artist who could have been in there. I don't have any one particular piece. Do you agree? Well, I too, because we know that we know that everybody would curate the show differently. We would all curate the show slightly differently with many of the same artists, but other artists that we know. And I think if there was one person, and I immediately came up with a number of women who were very active in the 70s and kind of 70s feminist art movement who were working with fabrics and basketry and, you know, hair quilts and different things like that. But I think if there's just one artist that I would like to mention is Ann Wilson. And that is because Ann Wilson was painting on quilts and quilting paintings in the late 50s before the feminist art movement. And it was very much in recognition of the quilts themselves. She was using old, they were they were torn, they were, you know, that they were they were damaged and she was painting on them. And recently, there was the Whitney Museum owns a very beautiful one and was in that crafting, knowing crafting show that the Whitney Museum recently. But I felt because it was pre feminist, it's her work, I would have put it in the exhibition, I really would have.  Lucy, come on. I don't ever choose one thing about anything. This is true. You always take a very multi layered. I live a chaotic multi life.  You briefly saw a piece of mine with a quilt in the middle of it. And that actually was a quilt that Ann Wilson left after she was visiting in New Mexico and camping here because she's a friend of mine. And she left this dirty old quilt here, which I then stretched on a canvas and partially painted somewhat similarly to the way she had done much earlier on. But that particular piece, there it is, also has, of course, the corrugated roofing tent on the sides and the bottom and text. And I only use text in work when there's a story to tell. And the story to tell here is when I moved from New York to New Mexico, a woman, a young woman who had been an intern at AIR gallery wrote me because I had a character called Chicken Lady that was in some of my works on paper that had been shown at AIR. And she told me in her letter that there was a real Chicken Lady who lived near Milford Connecticut along the waterfront. And did my Chicken Lady share any of the characteristics of this Chicken Lady in Milford Connecticut, who was a real outsider woman, a survivor. She camped on the land along the river that the state was trying to take from her to make into a park. But she said that land belonged to her. And apparently she lived in a trailer and tents and had chickens and dogs around and was very weathered, didn't like people, you know, didn't like people at all. And of course, I had never heard of this Chicken Lady, but I could relate to her because I felt that my friend Ann Wilson is a bit of a Chicken Lady, a survivor, a difficult person who doesn't, and I am.  That's what this woman, I have to look her name up, I think it was Marion, you know, she was doing it her way. Right. So that's the story there. The text is from the letter the young intern sent me and it's around a quilt that Ann Wilson left me. That's fantastic. I did not realize that that was, that you combined your, your work with her pieces. That's, that's a wonderful story. Now speaking of picking up on exactly something that you just said, well, perhaps, Armini, I have a question from the audience that I would love to share with both of you and it is very much directed at both of you. So it says both of you are amazing and full of wisdom and energy. Very true. Thank you for your inspiration and dedication. As I am now in my third act, and they define that as being aged 60 of four or five acts, I experience a dismissal and erasure of my presence as an older woman. I would love to hear from both of you. How do we address the rampant ageism in this country as artists and as women? I recently got a letter from somebody in England who said, or someplace abroad, are you hearing me? Yes. Who said, we were going to ask you to do this text, but we heard that you were elderly and semi-retired. And I went elderly. I'm old. I'm 85, but I'm not elderly. I don't mind being called an elder, but I definitely don't want to be. And I'm not semi-retired. Thank you very much. Right. The presumption that means you're no longer working, right? Yeah, that was just classic.  So how did you respond to that? I just told them I'm old. I'm not elderly. And I'm not retired. Any, Tara, how are you going? Well, I just, you know, it's like there's this best, I mean, it's a good question because certainly, ageism exists, you know, how, you have to just be like strong and continue doing your work. Do you just do your work? The art world is like, it comes and it goes.  But you just do your work for the reasons you do your work. But there is this vast and what I call the vast territory of mid-career. And it's a much bigger territory for women than men, okay? Why, why, why is that harmony? You can get lost there. So that's all I can say is I can identify that place. But, you know, I'm a worker. I like working. So I just work. Just let it roll off your back. And I can also say there are, you know, some galleries, I'm lucky to be represented by one of them, but there are other galleries as well, which are specifically looking to artists who are mid-career and older and who have so there are a few places that are looking that way. But I understand where the question comes from. It exists.  We couldn't quite hear you. Please. No, I was just saying a large probably majority of our close friends across these five decades have suddenly gotten more successful now. I mean, I think Cindy Vicunia has been a close friend of mine for decades. And suddenly she got a golden lion at Venice Biennale. I mean, who knew? I mean, you know, and then so many people and harmony included finally got a gallery who appreciated what she was doing and made her as famous as she is now, although she was always famous in the other range. But, you know, it's just I'm constantly writing notes to old friends saying congratulations better late than never. Exactly. Well, and I think it's true that if the recognition comes at all, it tends to come later in life or with some artists even posthumously, unfortunately. And so thinking about I mean, I really truly inspiring that what you all are both continuing to do both in the art world and as community activists. And I have a couple more questions, but we're going to have to wrap up. I'm so sorry. But I really wanted to know from your perspective, thinking about this or thinking about this level of recognition. I mean, we've seen some change. I hesitate to put too much emphasis on it, but we see some change in the last decade with the mention several sort of major solo and group shows that are dedicated to artwork by women, including shows for black women, Latino women, indigenous women. And then there's also a growing number of women who are now at the helm at major art institutions. So we're seeing change, hopefully within the system. I know we feels like we're on a treadmill asking this question, but do you feel like we've perhaps finally maybe reached a tipping point in terms of the level of recognition and institutional change? Or from your perspective, are there just fundamental barriers, things that absolutely are going to have to be changed within the system in order for women and women of color, LGBTQ women to ever achieve something approaching parody in terms of both the representation and valuation of their artwork? Well, McCall Hebron has done this gallery tally thing. And I have said that we had made more strides than came up with those statistics, which was kind of sad. And then prices are far lower than men's. I mean, there's a whole lot left to do. I would add to that. First of all, the answer is no, we have not reached a tipping point because I mean, there has been change. Surely, I can say that of the 20 women that formed AIR Gallery in 1972, if they're still living, are still making art. And a generation before me that probably wouldn't have been true. How many of us would have continued to make art to be artists? It was just there was so much stacked against us. And many of us have, some have become more famous than others, but we have continued to be artists. And that's a big change. But the other thing I want to mention is, I think with these curators and museum directors and these exhibits, for me, I come back to this, I think there's still a place for women's exhibitions, like this show, but I also strongly believe that all art by whomever, all art participates in multiple narratives. And therefore, that art should be shown in different contexts in the women's work show. But maybe it's a show about American painting, maybe it's about works from the south or the southwest, or maybe it's a material based show, or a concept based show. It could be gender, it could be sexuality. But the work always participates in multiple narratives, mine and everybody else's. And I think it's important that women's work gets discussed in all of these different realms. And the main thing is, while there are more museum, like there's a, as Lucy said, a lot of museum shows, Cecilia also had a show with the Guggenheim just now.  And so this is great. What we need also, though, are for works by women to go into museum collections, because that's where they get protected, hopefully, eventually, re-exhibited and written about. Right. So the next thing is really getting them into those museum collections. And it's happening, but it's slow because the museums are so far behind. You know, they're very slow in the 70s correctly. And when they say they didn't collect the 70s correctly, what do they mean? Women and artists of color. Yes. And it's, to that point, Harmony, there was a, you may be familiar, a 2019 study, I think it was 18 U.S. galleries, 87% of their collections were still men, 85% of them white men. So you are 100% right about them needing to diversify their collections and their collecting priorities. So I want to close on this. We have another really, had so many good questions in the Q&A, but I have a last question that I want to pose to both of you. And then, so Amanda Malstrom asks, how do you feel about the term, quote, unquote, woman artist? Is it one to avoid or one to embrace and reclaim? That's for you, Harmony. Well, for me, I've never avoided labels because labels are only limiting if you let them be. They can tell you something. They don't tell you everything, but they can give you a clue. And so I accept labels. I choose my labels and I try to define them on my own terms, but they're not fixed. They can move, they change with time and context, but I try to not let them be limiting.  That's me. Oh, I love that. And I think that is a the perfect place to end. I could keep talking to you both for another hour or two or five, but I know we don't have that kind of time. So, but I just want to thank you both for spending your time with us today and sharing your wisdom and your experience with us. I think we, I certainly have learned a lot and I know our audience has as well. So I have a couple of little outro things here. Rhonda, if you can bring those up. So if you've enjoyed today's program, I encourage you to seek out our other two events in this series, preserving the places where women made art and a discussion between women's work curator Becky Hart and artists Daisy Quesada-Irenia, Nafis White, and Beatrice Glow. And of course, please take advantage of the wide array of programming that will be available as a part of our annual past-forward conference, which I believe this entire series will also be available through past-forward. Our live virtual conference will be November 1st through 4th on 2022 this year with the on-demand and pre-conference workshops beginning in October. Early bird registration is open now through September 6th or sorry, 26th. Next slide, please. So again, thank you all to everyone who was able to attend this today and hear from Harmony and Lucy.  And I also want to thank the staff at Forum and Lindhurst who helped make this event series possible. If you have any questions following this webinar, please don't hesitate to contact this at the email you see on the screen forum at savingplaces.org. Thank you again. Thank you so much Harmony and Lucy and everyone have a wonderful day. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Bye-bye.


It is October 9th, and there are three game fives coming our way To today. Let's talk all about it What's going on everybody? Thank you for talking Baseball with us for a little bit click and play hanging out. We appreciate it We appreciate all our patreon subscribers the two sponsoring today's episode or Choi and Lawrence Carbon Lawrence Carbone those are most recent patreon subscribers $2 a month really helps us out We appreciate it patreon.com slash John boy media. My name is John boy. I'm coming to you from New Jersey I got my co-host Jake and Denver on a nice stormy morning here in New Jersey. How's the weather there? It's uh, it's nice. It's about to We're having our first shot of and this will get a laugh out of you because I know you're still well You got a full dose of fall yesterday, but we're getting a quick Denver's pretty weird. We're gonna quick hit of winter Tomorrow so things are starting to cool down tomorrow is gonna hit like There's rumors of flurries tomorrow. Oh, and then it's good and then it's gonna go back up to 70 Like the next day. So yeah, I could never live in Denver a Little a little volatile. You'd love it man 300 days of sunshine. Why would I like that? I like hate sunshine You like the sun as long as it's not hot. I Mean, I'm I woke up today. It's overcast and rainy. I'm excited.  No, no, no, that's just rain nonstop.  Come on get out of here There's a true Northeast argument out there that Jersey is not the Northeast Well, I mean, it's not New England. It's the Northeast Mid-Atlantic you get you get you start arguing with the people from Bitterford. Whoo. Where's Bitterford? I think it's in Maine just a good Northeast town South Jersey probably isn't I think it would be Jersey would be cut in half. I Love it. Yeah You love the games yesterday. I mean, I know you have a burn of the raise game We got one game to recap two games to preview We've had we're gonna have five Elimination games and like a two week span.  Maybe they don't but it may it changed a lot of things in the way the rate in the way The Astros move forward Which I think is really interesting. Do you have a burn? Do I burn it first? Always got a burn, baby. Here we go Raise versus Houston raise on the brink of elimination for the second time in two days On your mark Get set Burn Game four in Tampa as the raise go opener day with the chill bra San Diego Castillo against the varsity ace JV Justin Verlander top one It's gonna be tough to beat my raise cuz we are Family Tommy fam goes all caddy shack with a gopher ball in the first and that was just the start What you don't know about me? What you what you don't know about me RBI single for Travis? Joey Tribbiani Wendell says we're friends and family with an RBI double three Nothing raise after the first Baseball Susan Verlander with labor through the first few innings then Willie Adam as says I thought you were a damn ace deep to left center and call him right said Fred because he did a little turn on the catwalk It's for nothing raise Houston shut out until the eighth when we have the first participant in the Churrinos bowl. Yeah, Churrinos got some work in the pen But Robinson goes oppo taco for one raise that would be your final Castillo to Yarborough to Anderson to Pochette to Pagan to Snow see you in Houston for game five on Thursday who doggy What you know about me what you know about me my lip gloss is popping my lip gloss is cool What you know about me? It's a great song Top song my lip gloss is popping Notice it get back going on the the Spotify or YouTube wherever you listen to your music who sings that No, I think it's a female like rapper that went by Lil something Sure my lip Gloss is popping Lil mama Lil mama, I knew it. I was all over it. Didn't she have one more track that that that bumped I Don't know. This is what stuff. I guess is what the people came for Yeah, Lil mama. She was born on October 4th 1989. So she just recently turned 31 Congratulations or 30 30 I don't know this isn't worth it No game was good This game was good This game was baseball you can Chalk it up. How however you want the rays come out in the first and Jim I think the first thing that I I want to kick off to you and I saw you tweet and Many take a lump but not really take a lump because they still got to do it during the season at one time But how about the how about the Trap? Yes job was rocking. It was good man Yeah, I I've never had issue with the fans Well actually the ones on But that's a select few I mean that's that's literally 10 Anonymous high schoolers on Twitter that troll that troll me and they don't even troll me They're just dumb. They don't understand like humor and jokes. So they get well We have a major league baseball and anyone that's a fan of the sport has problems with the raised fans not filling the state Yeah, but they don't but that's because they don't realize I think once you realize how bad that stadium is to get to and you really like Would you drive an hour and a half to go watch a game in that stadium? I Wouldn't well It's not an hour and a half to get that's what they say they say with traffic. It's like an hour I mean one person doesn't live there, but no, no, that's what everyone in Tampa says I mean, I've been I've been filled to the teeth with this conversation Yeah, my girlfriend's family lives in Tampa. So but yeah, but there's the bridges and then it's a dump Like I even if that's my home stadium. I don't think I'd go watch games there Right, that's the big mark Cuban was recently asked like when he took over the Mavs he was like what? What did it? What were your like ideas? And he was like well first I had to convince the people with the money What we're selling like we're not selling a winning team We're not selling, you know star players We're selling a fun experience for families and tourists and people to come to and have a fun night And I mean I've talked to so many people out go to Tampa games and they're like half their concessions are closed So like the right field outfield concessions looks like a ghost town, which is very eerie he's like it's empty and It's like a high school game. So like they're not selling an experience at all but last night was really wild Like that was fun. They were loud. They were stay stayed loud for a while. So that was good Yeah, so that a that was cool The trap was rocking as always for my raise And then yeah, I mean they the place is going nuts Castillo. We mentioned the opener effect He gets through the first inning. I think they got one base runner on but he uh His his to see him or when it's right. It's it's pitch ninja gold Second-day referencing that but his his one fastball that struck it out to they went viral started outside corner Ended up would have hit out to vei if he didn't swing at it. He hits a lot of once they did Yeah Castillo or I'll do they castillo because that two seamers like a 99 mile per hour two seamer I don't know if he hits a lot of guys, but I feel like there's always like a very dangerous pitch I think batters are very nervous in the box with him Which it kind of should be and that's part of the goal actually, but yeah, it's good for him and Then so they get through that they get the momentum and then they come out in the first and I want to give I I do want to give credit to Purzynski and Gerardi, although I think you and I are gonna talk about this in a different line a little bit But they were all over it. I almost turned into jinx Twitter because Verlander didn't look right But they were all over it It was actually their best analysis of the game and they were like Verlander can't get a fastball down And he's not even coming close to his spots and they're like at AJ Purzynski was saying any time I worked with a pitcher on short rest the concern was never their velocity It's finding their location and Verlander never had his location I thought because it's Justin Verlander and this is how you're trained to think as baseball fans that he was Going to get through find a spot and get out and run and never happened There's two thoughts here. There's Gerardi and Purzynski and Verlander Verlander didn't look right and it's it's changes their plans for the ALCS Because if they don't pitch him on short rest now that means they have to use a fourth starter They don't really have a fourth starter Yeah So that changes that and the fact that they have to go game five now with Cole means Cole's not available for one And two which means it's probably Granky one Verlander two and that would line Granky up for Six or seven on normal rest. I think seven I think five Granky five Verlander six Cole seven. That's what it would be Cole three. Yeah, okay, but it changes their rotation Yeah, I mean the Yankees in theory Could if they were to somehow win in six games if Houston advances, which by the way ain't a lock Yeah, I mean Houston this I There is a little bias leaking out My Yankee Yankee blue is coming out of my side a little bit, but I think however This division series sorts out.  Yeah, okay. So you have to be there. It's it's glass note of pen And we'll we'll talk about that in the next talking baseball. That's a preview guys But I think Snell will be available out of the pen too.  I Mean he essentially closed the game. So yeah, I know that was kind of wild I closed I ended the game after the eighth. So And I was done. I mean in theory in theory. I think there's there's an argument to be made I'll say that so I don't corner myself, but there's an argument to be made that Blake Snell is their most talented pitcher Yeah So I'm trying to do well. There's a need easy argument So I don't want to say I'm trying to do the rotation for the Astros Cole Burlender off-day cranky So then it has to be fourth starter Then Cole game five Burlender six Hey, they got to advance buddy. I know but it does change what they would like to do Yes, so then it would it would be cranky two times in the first five games Which is much better Then Cole two times in the first five games Yeah, if you're if you're Houston, I mean you're not If you're Houston, you're having a bad time right now all the pressure is now on you We got to get more into this game Yeah, what do you want to talk about this game?  I'm trying to watch this game like yeah, he looks off shut up about it Yeah, the the Verlander thing they did they did end up beating the dead horse on it by Because I mean he was letting a lot of traffic on the bases and I mean he's in there in the fourth inning So that was four innings of Justin Verlander doesn't look right and it's like okay guys Yeah, even as a non Astros fan that was that was a little intense. Yeah, you and you you caught that one clip where The the buccaneers tight end OJ Howard caught the ball and Przenski's like look at that and Girardi's like in in the bullpen if I was Houston, it's like whoa, they don't like each other. It's pretty clear I'm still I'm still looking for the person besides his mother who we mentioned on enough on the broadcast But who's out there at home clamoring for AJ Przenski to be on the broad maybe white socks fans Some of the insights good like maybe some I like I do I did like how the play-by-play guy Totally steps aside and let and let Girardi and Przenski have a conversation in between and they're talking about nitty-gritty like it's not dumb stuff. There's one part where What was the pitcher for they raise was it Castillo early in the game he threw a three he threw a 3-1 slider It was like the second inning through a three. He threw a 3-0 slider That went for ball four and Girardi was like, oh, that's a gutsy pitch and Przenski was like why the hell would you do that? If he it's a solo shot, you're still up to early in the game It's like I would never call that pitch and I was like Usually people beat around the bush. So I did appreciate that. This was yeah This was the most I enjoyed Przenski, but him and Girardi didn't get along at one point Przenski said I didn't have to split time with passata like you just like kind of a brutal deck Yeah, and then and then later on Przenski it hit the catwalk. I'm pretty sure that hit the catwalk guys and Joe's Joe's like, how'd you know that? I just I watched the ball and Joe goes. Oh, I watched the fielders and it was a little bit like of who's the better broadcaster off Where are we supposed to be watching? It was awkward. It's To to two catchers too many chiefs in the room a little bit, but Yeah, it had it had a couple highs that you were like, yeah, this is cool And then the rest of it was kind of like a this is This is tough. Yeah Jim our rays go Castillo to Yarborough to Anderson to Pochette to Pagan bless you to snap Bless you child Yeah, I mean we've been On the other end of this Bullpen days in the TROP Suck and the best hitting teams Will do poorly against it because they're impossible God damn. Yeah Sneeze attack Sneeze attack And yeah, I mean Yarborough we've seen the Yarborough show he slows things down Just a tough kind of annoying lefty Anderson man that guy is Unbelievable I thought If you told me if you asked me like who's who's the guy in the rays bullpen that I think would mess up a bullpen day I would go Anderson. I know he'd been incredible during the regular season But he just feels like kind of the prototypical Yeah, he found something in the regular season your face in the rays in the sixth seventh inning and Nick Anderson mows you down I figured like come playoff time that story changes.  So I mean he should be good again Tomorrow, yeah, and I I think I think they like him later in the game. I think they feel like they have Their other bullpen arms can get them where to be and if they need to get You know yord on Alvarez late, that's what they brought him in for right? Yeah, I think that's um That's kind of what they're saying there They're they're not gonna give Yord on Alvarez a chance late in a game to beat them This game mirrored the twins Yankees game and on Monday night With the two screaming shots from Brantley and Reddick right at Choi and one goes for a double play. It's like just hitting the ball hard Ray think both of them might for a double play No, the the reddick one was just a third out. I believe I thought I don't know But yeah, it was the G-man show too and we thank him for becoming a patreon today saw that But yeah, G-man has three walks And they were like legit walks to he was kind of spitting on pitches.   It was no There was no funny business. It looked like a Tom a man ski relay Kiermeyer termed and throw hit Adamus on the glove side Adamus got his body weight into it crow hopped It was perfect. It was the definition of a perfect relay Yeah, and then the tag was perfect as well and it was pissing me off because FS1 wouldn't show a replay Like of home plate.  I was like, I guess it was obvious, but Did you end up seeing the the actual plate the place? It's crazy Yeah, I mean it's nuts out too. They didn't even get plate like the glove just full-on stopped them It was all of it was perfect. It was nuts. Yes. It was how you draw it up like Adamus with the turn was crazy and then the next inning Garcia hits a homerun, right? Was it Garcia's homerun? I think it was a diamond homerun. Yeah. Yeah, it's been it's been the Adamus show this make a play in the field He don't make a play at the bat But that's a dagger.  There was that last inning you had the first like The rays were bending and you're like, oh, no Is this gonna be the story that the rays kind of owned their two games at home But the Houston put some together in the ninth and that was it and then no they they held There was that screecher up the middle, but I think Adamus was right there and run it back game five Yeah, well first we got two other game fives Want to get into those Sure, cool. Let's go to the ads if we have any Early so a lot of times we don't Should I play the music? We're getting a new transition. It's gonna be so mad at you Well, we're getting a new Mike Ratano who does the music for us said let me make you a real transition song Two game fives today, jake. I'm not even sure what time they start. I'm guessing five and eight I can inform you of that information James. That'd be wonderful first game is five Yeah, five on five oh two in Atlanta st. Louis Atlanta the second game is 837 Washington at LA It's got to be for two-minute commercial breaks, right? Like whatever was on until five they go to commercial for two minutes and the game starts That commercial those commercials cost more right before the start of the game. I don't know There's two minutes before like, you know the changing of the 707, I don't know No idea why games start when they do I think it's all commercial rights So 705 707 I don't know I wonder if it's like they don't want two games starting at the exact same time So like it's a seven and like the regular season they do that and I think it's nice like they'll have the The 655 7 o'clock 705 7 10, but yeah postseason The ad stuff kind of makes sense. I don't know we got jack flaherty versus mike folton evits in hot lana This is going to be a good game once again doesn't get primetime billing But that's only because they're east coast and dodgers are west coast so it makes sense And and this should is this the latest they've started a game though 840. I think it might be No, yankies twin started 840 I was talking about this series. Oh the braves cardinals. Yeah. Yeah. They've been all like one o'clock.  They both what had seven innings They both went into the seventh with one or less earned runs, right? It was one nothing in the seventh inning last game, I believe And then do duval clips clips flaherty pinch hitting for faulty so Yeah, and the faulty story is cool, man And it it it came out a little more, but he he got sent down this year He was having a brutal year as era was up to six three seven in june He got sent down and faulty was really good last year. I think he had a two eight five era He finished eighth in the psi young voting um And then he comes back from Uh little minor league stint to get fixed in his last ten starts of the regular season He had a two six five era and then we saw him in the post season at home So this is like straight up pitchers duel It's who's who's gonna get on the board first and put the pressure on them You think this will be a pitchers duel like you think both go seven innings again Because I don't know if they're gonna be given the chance to To mess up I do I do because I don't think I think they are the better options than going to their bullpins in the sixth or fifth inning That's true. Although both bullpins did pretty well besides tear on last game Yeah, st st louis has more of a reason than atlanta to believe in their bullpen But I mean faulty is going to be approaching triple digits on the gun. He already gave you the incredible start I think if you're the braves, I mean, I I think you want to go You'd rather go down with faulty than some of the guys that could be coming out of that bullpen Who got to him last time donaldson Donaldson and uh And someone else combined donaldson and duvall That was in the seventh inning Right in the first inning. I believe it was It was albies and Donaldson that combined so donaldson is a guy. He's got to watch out for that's fun. Yeah Try to think if there's someone uh that like That got owned by faulty or whatever and see if we if there's any changes that get made Who do you think has to make the changes here the batters or the hitters or both? The batters or the hitters are both like is faulty going to come out with the same exact repertoire same exact um Oh, yeah I mean faulty if you're mike faulty now it's you're saying I I went to the minor leagues. I got fully fixed I figured it out. I've been a stud since august Um, and I threw one of the best games of the playoffs so far. You're you're not changing anything if you're flairity You're saying I made two mistakes the the rbi single to donaldson and then the home run to duvall Other than that, I was perfect and okay. I made those two mistakes. Now. I will make zero mistakes Harrison bader went 0 for 3 with 3 k's versus faulty. You think he's got big changes to make start bunting more harry bader Do do they if if you're one of the guys without an impact bat in this lineup You're almost hoping that there's like a runner on second One out so you can either create some havoc somehow Um Yeah, it's gonna be small ball.  Are they gonna go to someone? Um, I mean that that's where this game is gonna get or Excuse me. That's where I think this game would get really interesting because both of these teams Want flairity and faulty out there basically as long as they can But if there's a chance to drive and runs and that pitcher spot comes out like I it would be interesting to see I wonder if one of the managers would play a game of chicken of like, I don't know Walk in dan's b swanson. So there's a runner on base for that pitcher spot in the fifth inning.  What are you gonna do? Pinch it duvall early would be fun It would be crazy and I guess the other the the guy that we we've briefly mentioned A couple times in this series because we were kind of surprised by his role How about max freed max freed had those first three games one inning appearances He's a guy that's been solid for them. He's a guy that they could probably trust in some of those middle innings um, he came he came out behind faulty last time And through some nasty curveballs to get some strikeouts Yeah, I mean that yackers no joke All right, who do you got who do you you have you have a rooting interest you have a betting interest Who do you want? Who do you think? I I I've liked the baby braves for a while. That's my only lean You know, I jack flirty, I think that dude's special so if he can do something awesome today and like Finish off the first chapter of his book like I'm I kind of support that too. I'm rooting for the stars to be honest I that What game was it the the old man game? I was rooting for the old man. I'm out on them I I don't I don't need mccann You know, I don't I don't need anyone right in their last chapter I need one of these guys right in their first chapter. I need an akuna walk-off I need flarity being special I want one of the young guys to like welcome themselves to the rest of major league baseball I need I need the main action to take place in the bottom of the eighth And then they close it out or the bottom of the ninth I just want to hear atlanta and the chop going crazy late in the game. Okay with a close game um Home team would be fun, but whenever I watch these games.  I end up rooting for that team. You think there's any excess bat flipping throat slashing jersey wiping Nonsense in this game. I mean it's game five of elimination on both sides. I don't think you can really be Preoccupied with that. I would hope no player is I'm gonna say yes I think you've kind of got hot heads on both sides. You've got emotional guys on both sides And kind of like what I was saying before like yeah, there's a couple vets out there But there's this series has been intense.  Yeah. No, I if there was if I could bet $5 to win 20 That akuna goes yard and gives the throat slash. I would place that back I'll take it Take it. Well, I don't want no. I don't okay. Well, I've taken the bet It's the bet's been taken. You give me $5 if he hits a home run. Yeah and throat slashes. I'll give you 20 back Okay. Wow. It was great bad bad bad bet by who? Yes I was gonna say about the umps. I don't think the umpires have transformed any game yet There's been a kind of what if you're with me? What's that? Knock on wood if you're with me, man. There's been a handful of bad calls But that's I mean with 300 pitches a game. You're not gonna get every close pitch correctly Yeah, and that's that's the the only call that does jump out. I think it was that inside cutter to ozuna Uh in the ninth inning when they were rallying that got called strike three. I think it was a three two count um, I think what has been consistent was the um in these games if an umpire has a bigger zone Like and and maybe this is where playoff baseball is better is that the teams haven't been complaining They just say okay, that's the zone like but those are the rules for today. Let's play baseball We're in the regular season. You'd hear the oh, well, what's going on?  There was like an oh one pitch to Someone on the cardinals in game Two I believe that was just not a strike So there's been a handful, but I don't think there's been like game changing bad home plate umpiring No And yeah, actually I had a little chuckle to myself yesterday that We still have left field and right field umpires whose only job are to call Fairfile balls and like we have replay now. So yeah, but do you remember the astros red sox last year? Joe west was the right field line and he called it Not home run talking about the home run. Yeah, the fan interference home run like that was Yeah, I mean that's fan interference still people people could argue about that all day still There's still no solution But the only reason it got called what it called is because Joe west called it that live So like they still have some power to fuck things up Yeah, Joe west always has power, but it is funny that they're like right in the lines Just play it through and we'll replay it after Yeah, no one trusts you I think it's funny how close those umpires play to the They're like 10 they're like 10 yards deeper than the first and third base umpires, but they get a better view I guess yeah That's what I'd like to see A right fielder go for a foul ball and whack into the ump. I'm here for that 1996 world series or 98 world series That happened with the Yankees remember the right fielder The braves the ump got in the way all three of them tried and the ump was in the middle and a drop That's on one of the Yankees world series vhs. That's what i'm rooting for. Yeah, that's just wild We've got a fantastic Pitchers rule if you think folty versus flairty's good Well, what do you think about strassberg versus bueller in a game five going to the Dodgers? home stadium this one's fun I mean, you've got the best postseason pitcher ever steven strassberg four game sample And asterisk four games asterix in whatever sample size fits the narrative that we wanted to say that we found it Yeah, do a three game. Oh, he's not the best ever do a five game. Oh, he's not the best ever Okay in a four game sand doesn't have five doesn't have five yet. He will tonight See how it goes because he shut him down earlier No one on the Dodgers has a home run off strassberg No one on the nationals has a home run off bueller So there's one thing with the game fives we haven't talked yet with and I And maybe this is a false narrative thing or I kind of want your thoughts on it because it's going to be bigger These series the the two nl series we knew we're going to come down I there's great baseball two really good teams In the al there's going to be a lot of pressure technically on houston. Yes, they have garret coal But if garret coal gives up a one a solo shot in the first the pressure on houston is going to be Insane they're supposed to be the favorite for the world series They're facing tampa at their home building the pressure will be on houston In either of these games. Do you feel like the home team has more pressure because it's at their house or Do you think it's just toss up both ways or what all the pressures on the Dodgers Okay Top T to team Best record everyone shoe in for the national league world series spot The Braves kind of climbed up to maybe the Braves can contend with the Dodgers If they lose to the gnats in the ds I mean like we said they they've been to the world series. What two times in a row three times. What is it? Two times And this run this would be this would be their this would be their third Yeah, and they haven't won and If they don't even make it to the cs That's like an epic failure Whereas the nationals had their wild card come back They've had some great games They didn't fully expect to be here You know at many times they probably said this isn't the season Dodgers have never said this isn't the season You know, so I think all the pressures on the Dodgers here What about in the first game Um the Braves I think that's equal. I think it's Okay, yeah, I mean you could say home team just because they're home But I think that one's pretty spread equal equally to division that one's two division winners two best pitchers on the mound I'd say I think it's braves by a nudge because of home field and because like Flaherty has been so dominant. We're like fault. He's been good of late But Flaherty was had a historic Second half like the cards cards have everything out there Um, but yeah, no, I'm I'm with you and I I think that's why I've I've kind of been on the gnats. I think Um, this is exactly where they wanted to be Strasburg Game seven the pressure will be on la and If la has to audible I it's it's what Ryu or Kershaw coming out of their bullpen early Yeah, I don't I think Bueller's gonna Be pretty good Kids got moxie I'm uh, I'm a Strasburg over Bueller guy. I think you're a Bueller over Strasburg. Well, I think they're both good Strasburg went six innings pitched Three hits one earned run 10 strikeouts in game two Yep in game one Walker Bueller went six innings pitched One hit zero earned runs eight k's one hit no runs Yeah, I mean for me that was tough because they just flew across the country They just survived the wild card and that was la's first game of the playoffs.  I just know reason to turn back now I think this is the end of the Dodgers. I think they've been to the playoffs For seven straight years one two three four five six seven straight years They were in the world series the past two years the The nlcs the year before that Um, I just think Dave Roberts I don't think the Dodgers fans really believe in him. I I think this is the fall of the Dodgers pseudo fake dynasty Wow tough words. Yeah I like counting one two three innings. I don't know why but I do Bueller five of his six for one two three Yeah, they had to be and one hit and Strasburg four of his six Bueller Bueller looked nasty and you're right. There was like a We're coming off the wild card win. We flew across country and welcome to walker Bueller like that sucks There's a little more preparation a little more preparedness now I think both teams Will scratch and claw some runs against these guys where I think cards braves might go six innings Zero and runs both sides. I think the the braves and the Nationals may be able to scratch and claw and I think the better pitchers are in the air with Dodgers I just think this game is more The Dodgers have so much more pressure on them Are we bearing the lead What do you what's the lead we believe in all four starting pitchers, right? Yeah Who don't we believe in every team's bullpen? The Nationals can piece up them together if they go Scherzer Do little Hudson like that's not Strasburg What's that? No Scherzer out of the pen Oh Oh really, I don't know if they do that Where they if I mean he's not it might be a throw day if he's I think I think he said his arm was tired and after seeing after seeing Verlander yesterday, it's not a throw day. I think tomorrow because there was another off day for the wild card today Okay, well then well then the Nationals their pitching path to victory Has to be just do little and Hudson at the back. They can't throw anyone else I think they I could see them using Corbin as a lefty specialist Like just trying to get bellinger out for one at bat, but you can't push them any further than that Yeah, I mean with the Dodgers we we kind of trust coloreck versus versus uh Yeah excited for the colorex Soto at bat tonight. Um, and then uh, I mean, I don't know who else Who else coming out for the I mean we we haven't seen like ken lee jansen with a one run lead yet That's scary. They don't want to see that Right and think about that. That's their closer like if if if it's the ninth inning That's what a team should want to see and I don't think dodger fans do Um julio your eyes as 3.2 innings pitch and kenta made as 3.2 innings pitched Those are the most those are the most used relievers in this series and then dust in may Yeah, and may may had two innings. I think one hit two k's his in the last game I mean, it's gonna be all hands on deck Uh, I think maybe the difference here is when the Dodgers go to the bullpen They can still have a quick hook because right now the difference between iris mayeda, joe kelly, dustin may I mean, there's only so much difference, right for washington They got a couple dudes and then that's it. Yeah, I mean washington. You cannot throw hunter strickland You cannot throw tannerini. You cannot throw fernando rodney.  Oh, yeah, I think anna ball could be used. Yeah Anna ball could be used today. Okay. So that's that's an option for them at least. Yeah um Yeah, I don't know. I'm uh, I'm drinking the latitude. I'm drinking the kool aid You're in on the gnats. You're in on the braves East coast bias, baby I think the Dodgers come through because if because I because I just It's just riding chalk and it's just if they don't that's terrible It's the end If they don't I'm not trying. This is a genuine question. Not a hot take. Right. Does the front Does the top breast think about moving on from roberts or whoever makes the strategic decision? Roberts is fired within 48 hours if they don't win this game You think so there's something just has to change about the way they do post think of all the pitching and talent they've had Whether this year or the past three five years I mean, we're talking about like revolutionary game changing guys kershaw now. We're on to walker bueller Um, the re you could have won the sigh young this year Um, I I don't know man bellinger might still win the mvp And yeah, roberts is the thing that stays the same and when when have we ever been like Dave roberts Never No, it's true. It's true All right. Well, we did the bullpens for those. Let's go back to braves cardinals and do the bullpens there Because that's the braves. It's sad You go max freed freed a lot of eggs in the max freed basket. Yeah, I mean shane green You don't and I I've liked shane green I mean at least shane green's close games and he's looked solid this series melanson He had a good outing in game two I can believe in mark melanson with the two run lead. I can't with a one Well, what's he done so far he in the first game he sucked In the next two he's gonna clean anything not really And and it's cleansed no no i'm wrong in the second And he's got to save in games two and three, but he gave up two hits in game two and one hit in game three Not kind of scary Shane green luke jackson. I don't think they want to use him Oh day maybe for like a batter That's all and then the cardinals. They're not as bad man. They they I mean martin has in a close game.  I feel like this is what we're missing right now like what what other of the starting pitchers are going to be available Can wane right come out for the cardinals in close just throw a couple curveballs and figure it out I mean why not michaelus came out of the pen yesterday Michael is yep, you do not want to give I mean he's there closer, but I wouldn't want to give him the ball with the game on the line No, saroka you wonder if he's available for the braves um Yeah, I I wouldn't be shocked if we see saroka and wane right um And like we said for the second game the soto kola wreck at bat get excited for the the freddy freeman andrew miller at bat Andrew miller won last time easily it was boring dude Carlos martinez 1.1 inning pitch two hits three earned runs in game one One inning pitch three hits three earned runs in game two And then yesterday he had a clean inning or he had one hit but uh he's been Bad and a little preoccupied I actually kind of I don't like him that much Right which I think is fine I think even cardinals fans would be would have to admit deep down in their heart like we understand why opposing players wouldn't like him Oh, absolutely with yeah, I think they've been trying to get rid of them forever Well, anyway, I'd like to see him blow it that would be awesome He would be he would be a I'm now rooting for bottom end of the game Braves in a tide game or down one martinez trying to close it out runners on base and the chop going fucking crazy Give me that situation Okay Give me the same situation with wainwright because I just think that's a toss-up Okay, cool Like I think if martinez comes out we know how that situation ends if wainwright comes out I mean that's fucking badass Yeah Cool All right, we got anything or you want the chat's been talking Let's see Jared agrees with you fall of the foe dynasty Just saying the fact the fact they have nothing to show right now Andrew says saroka can maybe go out of the pen for the braves Both braves losses weren't when we're kykel was the starter guys think that means anything Not really I don't think like they're on kykel not really this series has been crazy. Yeah Yeah And then we have someone in here talking out his butt Saying if the Yankees want to win Judge better start producing as if he wasn't the best player on the field in the ds Sure I mean, what are his stats? They always know how to provoke you to I think well, I think he's being honest I'm trying to broke two four Six seven judge got on base seven times in three games He had a 538 on base percentage Time to step up judge do more Three diving catches Any talk about hicks, uh, that's pretty Yankee centric. We'll save that for talking the Yankees. That's Championship series stuff. Yeah. Wow. Yeah Yankees have moved on. All right two game fives today should be exciting I hope they're both great games At least for the first four innings, they're going to be really intense one might get carried away But if they're within three down to the end That's going to be really really fun baseball. Good for mlb to get three game fives They got to be happy. All right, jake any final closing thoughts Be decided because of good players not bad players. Oh, wow. You don't want Bader to hit three home runs He's a good player. Hello. Bye