Coming up on this edition of Abledon On Air, we talk about the COVID uptick 2024 precautions that you should take, especially when visiting a hospital. All that and much more when Abledon On Air starts right now. Major sponsors for Abledon On Air include Washington County Mental Health, where hope and support come together. Media sponsors for Abledon On Air include Park Chester Times, Muslim Community Report, WWW, this is the Bronx.info, Associated Press Media Editors, New York Parrot Online Newspaper, U.S. Press Corps Domestic and International, Anchor FM, and Spotify. Partners for Abledon On Air include Jihad of New York and New England, where everyone belongs, the Orthodox Union, the Division for the Blind and Visually Impaired of Vermont, the Vermont Association for the Blind and Visually Impaired, Center Vermont Habitat for Humanity, Montefiore Medical Center of the Bronx, Rose of Kennedy Center of Bronx, New York, Albert Einstein College of Medicine of the Bronx. Abledon On Air has been seen in the following publications, Park Chester Times, WWW, this is the Bronx.com, New York Parrot Online Newspaper, Muslim Community Report, www.h.com, and the Montpelier Bridge. Abledon On Air is part of the following organizations, the National Academy of Television Arts and Sciences, Boston, New England Chapter, and the Society of Professional Journalists. Welcome to the edition of Abledon On Air, the one and only program that focuses on the needs, concerns, and achievements of the definitely able. I've always been your host, Lauren Seiler. Arnie is not here today, she's recuperating in rehab. We would like to thank our sponsors and partners, the Association of the Blind Vermont, the Division for the Blind Vermont, Parrot TV, and many, many, many others. Let's begin. There has been a COVID uptick recently, especially in hospitals, and when visiting a rehab, you will see that staff is wearing masks, and sometimes some of the residents are wearing masks or clients. So according to our friends at PBS News Hour, COVID is surging again, and here's what to know and why experts encourage caution. The U.S. is experiencing another COVID uptick, infections after the holidays, with hospitalizations rising for the eighth week in a row. A new dominant variant called JN.1 has quickly spread to account more than 60% of cases, and to let you know that. So, precautions when, let's go to precautions in COVID. So here is a kit. If you need help with learning how to use a COVID kit, well, this was for 2023, but we can also use this for 2024. I think, no, this is the wrong way. Let's not use this. Tips and disabilities. Let's do that. Okay, there we go. Okay. So the, this past December 3rd was the International Day for People with Disabilities. Many people around the country are dealing with COVID. So let's go, you must have access to health services. Initial health services is still in some countries inaccessible for people with disabilities who tend to have more healthcare needs, such as international countries and so on. So for people who have COVID who tend to have more healthcare needs than normal times, now health services, which are often insufficient in poorer countries or poorer places, have become harder to access due to the COVID restriction. Measures are because of medical staff. Hospitals and nursing homes don't have adequate medical staff sometimes. And there has been like COVID restriction measures because of medical staff and focused on responding to the pandemic. Discrimination and stigma has intensified during the pandemic. Medical staff may deny healthcare to persons with disabilities, but let's hope they don't do that. And during the pandemic it intensified. A lot of things were closed. People with disabilities can see the health, if you see your health status worsening, risking complications and additional things and functionality. There's a website that I'm looking at www.hius.org, which stands for humanity and inclusion. It's a website around the world. Humanity inclusion supports people with disabilities that are often left out during a crisis response. So this is very important. Raising awareness for, now this is in Nepal, but around the world there are services for people with disabilities to access, but inadequate awareness, raising awareness for COVID-19. People with disabilities are often left out of adequate medication and things like that. For instance, if people need to find out about COVID-19, a lot of leaflets or things that are accessed are not accessible due to not having large print. So let's, but let me go to the Vermont Department of Health, which is important. Can't hold up. No, no, no, wrong one. So let's go to COVID stuff here for Department of Health. Okay, there we go. Let's get to COVID stuff. Okay, COVID-19, this is the Department of Health. COVID-19 is a disease caused by the SARS-CoV-2 virus, first surfaces that deal. Let's go here. There we go. COVID-19 is a disease caused by the SARS-CoV-2 virus, first discovered in 2019. The virus spreads when an infected person breathes out droplets that are very small particles that contain the virus.  In certain circumstances, they may contaminate surfaces that they touch. If you have a pre-existing condition, such as a heart attack or anything like that, COVID can be a situation that people have to deal with. So, and it also depends on your age. Symptoms and treatment for COVID. The health department of Vermont recommends getting tested if you are developed symptoms at any time. People with COVID may have a wide range of symptoms including no symptoms at all, mild, moderate symptoms or needing medical attention for severe illness, and even no symptoms at all can spread the virus to others. Symptoms can start two to 14 days after exposure to the virus that might include 100.4 or higher fever, cough, shortness of breath, difficulty breathing, chills, fatigue, muscle or body aches, headache, sore throat, no loss or new loss or taste or smell, nausea and vomiting, diarrhea. Now, if you test positive, if you are a person with a disability who tests positive for COVID-19, you must isolate yourself as soon as possible and receive your test result, even if you are vaccinated or never have symptoms. Isolation may mean staying home or staying away from other people at least for five days from the date of your positive test result or you start your symptoms whichever is earlier. You can end isolation after a five-day mark. If your symptoms have improved and you have no fever for at least 24 hours, the use in medicine can reduce fevers. The guidance does not apply to care workers. Please check with your employer, school, child care program or learn about their return and isolation policies. Sorry, if you are not able to isolate because of financial care, sorry, if you're not able to isolate because of financial care or other reasons, you can still lower the risk by not getting people sick. Wearing a well-fitted, in other words, if you have to go to work and you can't stay home, wear a well-fitted quality mask or disposable mask under a cloth mask. Limiting close contact with other people as possible, washing your hands with soap and water or use of hand sanitizer, cleaning and disinfecting surfaces as much as possible and all of that. Guidance for close contact. Close contact means six feet or 15 minutes over a 24-hour period of someone with COVID while they're contagious. To determine if you were in close contact, consider time spent with someone with COVID starting two days before they develop symptoms or date they tested positive. If no symptoms until they started isolation, the health department recommends getting tested if you develop symptoms at any time. Even if you are vaccinated or have recently had COVID-19, if you do not have symptoms or been in close contact with someone with COVID-19, it is recommended to test five full days after the COVID exposure. If you use a home antigen test and result in a negative test 48 hours again, if you, let me repeat that, if you use a home test and the result is negative, test again 48 hours later. If you have a PCR or LAMP test, L-A-M-P test, follow-up test is needed. The guidance does not apply to healthcare workers. Treatment for COVID-19. Some people are likely to get very sick from COVID. If you are age 50 or older and have a medical condition, that might put you at risk. Reach out to your department of healthcare provider about treatment as soon as possible of the positive test result. Don't delay. Treatment must be started within days before you develop the symptoms to be active. People who are at a higher risk and speak to their doctor should get treatment if vaccinated or experienced mild symptoms by getting treatment. You could have less serious symptoms and may lower your chance of illness getting worse and needing healthcare in the hospital. For more information, you can go to www.healthvermont.gov. That website once again is healthvermont.gov. Oh, if you have, if you need help with American Sign Language or other languages, you can go down here to the Department of Health which is healthvermont.gov. It's in the following languages. American Sign Language, Arabic, Burmese, Dari, French, Nepali, Spanish, Swahili and other languages. There are COVID fact sheets here in different languages if you need. Okay. So that's www.healthvermont.gov. That's www.healthvermont.gov. And there are other, there's a link here www.covid.gov. And you can get, if you are in another country, you can search for your country and, and you can get the languages.  Free N95 masks are available in many local pharmacies, healthcare providers. Please check your local area and also vaccines. Being fully vaccinated and boosted is the best way to protect from any hospitalizations. Everyone that is age five and up, age five and up is eligible for new vaccines that have been updated to restore protection target against the army crime variant. Please find www.covid.gov with more information on this and other types of things when it comes to at-home testing. The latest guidance used at home tests and what to do with the results to get a home test. You can log on here symptoms of care. If you're immune compromised, so let's go to that resource that's important. Okay. So if you have the following situation and COVID, I'm not going to read this whole thing, people with certain medical conditions, if you are a family member, a high risk with severe illness, wear a mask or respirator with greater protection and with the public indoor spaces in your area. If you have COVID and in the hospital, you can click here and this brings you to the CDC website as well. And you can get more information. Talk to your healthcare provider about wearing a mask in the medium of COVID and hospital admissions. If you have symptoms that are constant with COVID and you're age 50 years or older and you are high risk of getting very sick, you may be eligible for treatment. Contact your healthcare provider to start this treatment within a couple of days. Now, one last thing, I'm going to go here, underlying medical conditions associated with high risk with COVID and other information for healthcare professionals. There's an updated list for health conditions. So let's go here. This webpage or this information I'm giving you provides evidence-based resource for healthcare professionals. So it depends on your age. You can click and find more.  Also, if you have Down syndrome and other disabilities, you can find, yeah, disabilities including Down syndrome. People with other situations should consult the CDC, go to www.cdc.gov, the Centers for Disease Control, www.cdc.gov. Please wear a mask during these such conditions. For more information on that, please go to the CDC and find out about the N95. Most public buildings now if you want to wear a mask, you can. It's extremely important to be careful when coming in close contact with someone who has COVID, such as someone in the hospital or nursing home. This has been the COVID update for 2024. I'm Lauren Seiler. Arlene is not here today. She's recuperating in rehab. See you next time on the next edition of Abledon On Air. Major sponsors for Abledon On Air include Washington County Mental Health, where hope and support come together. Media sponsors for Abledon On Air include Park Chester Times, Muslim Community Report, WWW, this is the Bronx.info, Associated Press Media Editors, New York Power Online Newspaper, U.S. Press Corps Domestic and International, Anchor FM, and Spotify. Partners for Abledon On Air include Yehad of New York and New England, where everyone belongs, the Orthodox Union, the Division for the Blind and Visually Impaired of Vermont, the Vermont Association for the Blind and Visually Impaired, Central Vermont Habitat for Humanity, Montefere Medical Center of the Bronx, Rose of Kennedy Center of Bronx, New York, Albert Einstein College of Medicine of the Bronx. Abledon On Air has been seen in the following publications, Park Chester Times, WWW, this is the Bronx.com, New York Power Online Newspaper, Muslim Community Report, WWW.H.com, and the Montpelier Bridge. Abledon On Air is part of the following organizations, the National Academy of Television Arts and Sciences, Boston, New England Chapter, and the Society of Professional Journalists.


If not, like I won't settle, I'll just be single.  By the way, that's very genetic trait. This is true. There's a book called, there's a book called, Be Single. No, no, it is. Be, no, no, how picky you are. There's a book by Barry Schwartz, one of my mentors. He's a professor and it's called The Paradox of Choice.  But it's genetic. Some people, he calls them maximizers or satisficers. Maximizers are always looking for better and they're not gonna settle till they find the best.


Hello and welcome. I'm Jan. I'm working for the open source automation development lab. We are a German cooperative which is basically a non-profit organization and we do support our members in using open source in their products. So that covers many different aspects and one important aspect for our members is real-time specifically with primed RT and this is basically what I'm going to talk about within the next let's say 40 minutes but today I've picked a very special context for using primed RT because another topic we've seen really approaching to the embedded industry market is virtualization and well there's different technologies when it comes to virtualization but we really see this coming to the industrial market but since on the industrial market usually real-time is a important requirement we actually had to get a good understanding how virtualization and real-time with primed RT can basically work together. So let's have a brief look on what I'm going to talk about and this presentation so this this basically is three parts of my presentation so we're going to get started with containerization so we'll look into docker containers and how they could behave with regards to real-time behavior so I just took docker as an example but as you know most of the container engines and technologies are working on the same principles basically the knowledge shown here could be applied to any other container engine as well. In the second chapter we're going to look into hardware virtualization and specifically I'm going to look into KVM and shale house and last but not least when we look into virtualization usually separation is a very big topic and therefore I would like also to have a look at how shared hardware resources specifically a shared level two cache could have an impact on the real-time behavior and the influence between the host and the guest operating system. So this at the end of the day for all the technologies we're going to talk about I looked into three different things so basically I looked into the real-time behavior on the host so that basically means just the fact that you run a few guest operating systems on that system influence the real-time behavior on the host. Second thing I looked into is it possible to have real-time behavior within the guest system or within the guest systems and third thing already mentioned that looking into the topics of this presentation what is the level of isolation. Once again this is pretty important to look into because when people start to look into virtualization in many cases the motivation of using virtualization techniques is to have a level of separation or isolation for different parts of their system and therefore it was crucial to look into that as well. Well we're going to start with containerization and before we dig a bit deeper in my test setup just let's briefly remember on what preempt RT does just a very brief and simplified overview so for those of you that haven't worked with preempt RT so far preempt RT is a so-called single kernel approach which means it makes linux itself capable of real-time basically by introducing a additional preemption model which is fully preemptible kernel. So that means that a real-time task in comparison to other solutions for linux and real-time is just a standard linux task so basically you need nothing special you just work with the standard C library with the standard tools standard posix api it's a standard linux task you just need to follow a few rules but now since a real-time task is just another linux task if we now look into the topic of containers in real-time well you know a container is also with a simplified view just a set of processes that is running an isolated environment so since a real-time task is just a normal linux task any process inside a container can have real-time priority so there's no problem with that so and this is basically what we did to evaluate the real-time behavior so we put actually we took one system out of our so-called qa farm where we do latency monitoring on roughly 200 boards actually you could access these systems if you go to osadiel.org just go to qa farm real-time and you pick rack zero slot two you'll find the test hardware and on this hardware I just put a docker container and on the host and in the container I'm just running the real-time smoke test tool cyclic test to evaluate the real-time behavior so this is basically what we did if you want to learn more about like the load scenarios we're using and how the tests are really looking just go to osadiel.org and check the qa farm for slightly more details okay um if you haven't worked with cyclic test before just to give you a rough idea on how you could use that to evaluate the real-time behavior of your system cyclic tested at the end of the day a pretty simple tool that just gives you the possibility to start a given number of threads that will wake up at a given interval let's say like 200 microseconds so every time one of these measurement threads wakes up it will just um take the current system time and compare it to the time when you wanted to wake up you calculate the delta and then you know the wake-up latency and this latency is continuously reported to a master process that would monitor the worst-case latency for you or could create a nice histogram for you and so on and so on so this is this is pretty simple and this is pretty much what cyclic test does setting up a given number of threads that will wake up in a given interval and this is basically what we used but yeah so this is this is how it would look like simple command line tool there's just a few parameters you would give like the interval to wake up the priority the number of threads on which CPUs you want to run and um most importantly it would tell you the worst-case latency that you have reached over the runtime this is basically the number you're interested in right so what's the worst case you could you could see in different load scenarios well before we dig a bit deeper in my test setup it might sound simple but to understand the tests a bit more we need to remember a few key principles when it comes to setting up a real-time system right so first of all once again it might sound pretty simple but it is crucial to understand and crucial to follow so if I want to guarantee real-time behavior the corresponding real-time task needs during its entire runtime the highest priority right of all tasks running on the same core because otherwise you know we might get interrupted and that might violate our timeline so sounds simple but we need to remember that if you want to optimize things a bit further we could also to we could restrict the task to run on a particular core and we could even isolate that core from additional noise right to to improve the latencies so these are two important points but number one is the most important one and these general principles also apply if you'd like to talk about real-time and virtual environments so we need to think about that so the the main message here is that I cannot just blindly deploy virtual machines with real-time workload and just think it works because I have a real-time kernel working right so I need the overall picture and make sure that I do not overcommit the system right so this can be simply shown with cyclic test just to give you an idea of what I wanted to tell here I know that this might look a bit stupid but it tells pretty much about the principles what I just wanted to tell so in this case I'm starting 12 tasks with an interval of 100 microseconds all running on the same core with decreasing priority right so all these real-time core applications are running on the same core and as you can see with the increasing number of tasks and the decreasing priority we see that the worst case latency that is being reported gets worse and worse and worse so what's the reason for that because the higher gets the chance that they get interrupted and they violate their timeline so at the end of the day what we pretty much did here which is heavily over committed the system so it just doesn't work so once again you need to really think about the design of your real-time system just randomly deploy any workload and enable real-time well that just doesn't work right and the same we need to do in a virtualized environment so what's the fix in this situation well I could just ask cyclic test to like run all the tasks on a separate CPU I am back to the key principles right I'm the highest priority task during my entire runtime I won't get interrupted and I can meet my timelines so that's pretty much it and this is what we also applied to our test setup so this is a bit to zoom in on the test setup I showed you it's been an eight core machine so as you can see I've reserved four cores on the host to run cyclic test on it and another four cores within the container to run cyclic test in there as well and well when running cyclic test we've just made sure that they are running on dedicated CPUs and there's no overlap between the host and the guest once again this is just because we need to follow the key principles when designing a real-time system right so we had a proper partitioning and for all technologies I'm showing in this presentation we had to apply this key principle that you have a proper partitioning of the system right well now you might be interested in the results we've reached so this is the latency histogram of the cyclic test run on the docker host looks actually pretty nice we've seen a worst case of 30 microseconds and all the tests always did run in parallel so cyclic test was running in the container and the host right so what we can tell with that is that just the fact that we have some real-time load running in the container doesn't have any influence on the host so there's no interference right here which is already good news right so let's look at the guest and as we can see it looks pretty much the same so I mean we've been at 26 microseconds which is the same area as we reached on the host like also the distribution of the latencies looks pretty much the same which is at the end of the day not surprising because it's just a bunch of processes running in a isolated environment so there's no root cause for additional latencies right so which is approved with these measurements so these measurements were running under heavy CPU load and now in the QA farm we do different load scenarios so sometimes you cause latencies with load sometimes with an idle system because you hit any weird power management issue you enter C states or whatever so therefore we also have idle measurements and actually this we messed up a little little detail in the configuration that's something I wanted to share with you this experience so this is the idle measurement on the host which is in the same area like we see 29 microseconds so that even the distribution looks pretty much the same as under heavy load then we looked into the measurements in the idle docker container and oops that looks a bit different actually a bit different and we've been really surprised on what happened here just to zoom in for better reading I mean we hit 93 microseconds in the container compared to 20 something on the host and I mean that doesn't make any sense at all so why should the idle scenario have an influence on the container so the thing is that I mean at the end of the day the thing you need to be careful about is that the container needs the appropriate privileges and it needs to have access to the required system resources right so the configuration it's not hard but it's a bit tricky and you need to take care about a few things so what happened here is it's actually pretty simple we didn't have access to a specific device node which is used to disable the C states so what happened at the end of the day is the host did have access so C states were disabled on the host measurement but the guest didn't have access to this device node so C states were not disabled so the the measurements at the end of the day were not comparable right so these worst case latencies have been triggered but just by coming back from a from a C state right so we fixed that in the setup and as you can see also with the idle measurement we've been back to the native host latency I mean it's pretty simple right nothing unexpected but nice to see that it's actually quite easy to to run a real-time application within a container so these are the numbers already quite quite good news the next topic you wanted to look into I told you is the level of isolation so how can so is there any possibility that the host system could influence the real-time behavior on the guest and the other way around just think about a well misbehaving driver bugging buggy driver with locking issues disabling interrupts whatever and this is something we wanted to emulate with a driver which is called blocksys we basically wrote blocksys to break things that's that's pretty much what blocksys does so at the end of the day it's a very small driver it just blocks the system for a given number of cycles just by disabling preemption and local IQ processing that's pretty much it so it's it's just basically to to introduce artificial latencies to a system and see and monitor the behavior then right and this is pretty much what we what we also did in this setup so we've been using blocksys to to emulate a misbehaving driver and well so we introduced this blocksys scenario on the host while the measurements have been running on both systems right so just I mean it's quite obvious if I load that driver block the system I mean you see we've been blocking for roughly four milliseconds it just breaks the system completely right now you could do a guess a wild guess what happens to the gas system I mean we know how containers working I introduced the noise on the host I just load the driver but I mean I think it is obvious that this disturbance from the host system directly makes it straight to the container right because I mean they are sharing that the same operating system current right so if I block that I mean it has a clear influence on the host and the guest so at the end of the day the recap would be that the I mean you can have native latencies native host latencies in the guest but the level of separation has its limitations right for the container setup so that would be the brief summary well going to the next topic switching from containerization to hardware virtualization so one obvious technology we had to look into together with preempt RT was KVM so also I did these measurements on a x86 platform so basically core i7 six core machine I reserved three cores for the host three for the guest and there's a few things you need to know how to set things up so it's a bit like setting up KVM for real time it's not impossible but it's a bit tricky right there's a few hints I so we have limited time so what what I could recommend to you is this what I've been using this tundi profiles from reddit for real time virtual host and real time virtual guest I like I took these as an inspiration on the on the settings that are recommended so if you want to look into some further details and what you could tweak on KVM I would highly recommend to you look into the tundi profiles from reddit but most importantly remember about the what I told you about the proper partitioning of the system right so what I had to do is to get the cores for the guest system isolated so there's a few ways you could do that so I just took the simple way to do this on the command line basically isolating the CPUs enabling no hurtsful and like doing the irq routing in a way that they won't hit the guest operating system so by default routing the irqs to the host CPUs so this is pretty much the main setup trying to get as much noise as possible away from the guest operating system so this is the first step second step you need to configure QEMU so that you could tell where the vcpus are running so then you you want to make sure that the vcpus are really running on the three cores we have isolated for that purpose so you could easily do that with a word manager in the cpe tuning section so there's a pinning you could do for the vcpus you could also tell that for a specific set of vcpus like you want to change the scheduling policy so in this case I just put it to skid 502 priority one so be a bit careful with the rt priority here so I put it rt priority but on a very low level because the thing is that the vcpu will run more than just real-time load rate so if you just would put a randomly high real-time priority you might have a risk to starve out some housekeeping thread which is still running on one of the isolated cpu so recommendation would basically be it takes skid 502 put it on a real-time priority but that's basically how people do it right so these are the most important settings like I mentioned there's also on the host a few kvm tweaks you could do I mean kvm is really flexible so there's there's so many use cases for kvm so it needs a lot of time some time to figure out what you really need to do so once again if you want to see what's really important look at the dundee profiles from head head so they have the most important settings you need to you need to do so this was pretty much the summary of the setup we did measurements were pretty much the same on the host I guess we've been using cyclic test will be exactly same load scenarios and we looked how was the real-time behavior so looking at the host latency also this machine was behaving quite nice host latency of 26 microseconds worst case pretty pretty small distributions of the latencies so also here we could tell that just the fact that we run the guest operating system and we do run them load in the guest operating system does not influence the real-time behavior on the host at all which is already good news and this is already a pretty common use case because there's in the industry actually use cases where you just use the host system for real time and you want to just run a random other operating system just doing your hmi so you have your hmi and the real-time system on one controller right so for this use case we could already prove that this is really working just running the guest doesn't have any real bad influence on the host system well there's bad things you could do you cannot avoid but we'll talk about that later in the presentation so this is the host system so before I switch to the next slide don't be scared looks slightly worse which I can announce but give me some time we're going to have a closer look because it's it's not as bad as it might look at the first class right um okay hold on a second so this is um what I what I did in several measurements within the guest but let's go over that one by one because if you look at the you see that the three vcpus right here so most interestingly cpu0 did behave quite well so I was really able to get most of the noise back out of from from that vcpu so we've hit the worst case which was roughly in the area of 50 microseconds slower than the host but I mean I didn't had hit any latencies in many different measurements which was more than these like 50 microseconds but what's obvious is that um I wasn't able to to get rid of some noise on the other vcpus which was causing some latencies here so the cpu1 was like at roughly 200 microseconds and cpu2 most interestingly you see these three peaks so there's um like there's a pattern in here right so like these are in like a distance of 100 microseconds should should be easy to to trace down the root cause which I haven't done so far most probably still a a configuration issue it is um like from experience what I could tell um it is possible to to isolate the vcpus and have real-time response in the guest but you really need to look that you get the the noise from the vcpus and configuration is a bit tricky right so just to compare that um there's another measurement which I actually messed up another detail so um I did one test run where I forgot to enable no-hots full right and just look at the distribution of the latencies in the guest I mean it's like really going a bit wider on all cpu's so I mean that that easily tells that it's really important to get as most as noise as possible away from the vcpus right but it it's not impossible right so it is at the end of the day that the conclusion would be with the proper configuration and accepting a few limitations you can have real-time response in the guest but configuration is a bit tricky right other topic we need to look into isolation like what I exactly the same I did with the docker set up so just blocking the system on the host and the guest just imagine you have a misbehaving driver once again we emulate that behavior and see what could be the influence so first try was I mean also seems to be obvious here if I block the system on the host I mean it's it's quite clear that it makes it straight to the host and the guest right because at the end of the day I'm just completely blocking the the hypervisor right here right so this will just make it straight to the guest operating system the rest in question is looking at the misbehavior in the guest operating system um does that make it through to the host and um this is actually not the case so having this weird behavior in the guest doesn't influence the real-time latency on the host so even if the guest is really misbehaving doing really bad things host is still working right so at the end of the day isolation is way higher right it's clear if I block the hypervisor then it breaks things for all but if the guests are misbehaving I have a very high level of isolation with kvm right so talking about the level of isolation there was another technology we really had to look into when talking about this topic um this a project which is called shale house um it's a partitioning hypervisor it's gpl v2 only was originally written by Siemens still maintained by Siemens basically supports x86 and arm and just like kvm it makes use of the virtual solution features of modern CPUs right um and it does a real hard partitioning of the system so once again time is a bit limited in this presentation in the slide version I have uploaded there's a few additional slides for you just if you want to do some further reading on what shale house could do and what it can do and so on so I'm going to skip these in the presentation right now so the uploaded version of the slides is a bit more extended but I think I can explain a bit on how shale house works with the with the setup I've picked so I did the measurements on a imx8mp quad core cpu and then I started partitioning the system and what you basically do with shale house first of all you boot a linux system and then you inject the driver which is shale house ko and this basically kicks off the hypervisor and then the hypervisor can take over so the the system you initially booted is what we call the root cell the root cell is a completely working system I chose that I just dedicate two CPUs to the root cell and I equipped the root cell with a primed rt patched system out of the root cell you can now start to create the guest operating systems in shale house these are called inmates and on the second cpu I just created another inmate running linux with primed rt so I've had two independent linux systems running I mean from the user's perspective this really looks like you would have two different boards on your desk right so these systems are running independently you could even crash the root cell and the inmate would still keep running right so the the system is really physically partitioned and just to give some additional noise here I've started a bare metal application on the last cpu just to see if that could have also any bad influence on the primed rt systems running so once again we've had two primed rt systems running one on the host one on the guest measurements taken in parallel so this would basically be the the view from the root cell just asking the hypervisor which operating systems are running so also here we did all the measurements with the cyclic test let's look at the result so this is the latencies on the host system so we ended up with like 45 microseconds worst case latency which is pretty much what I would expect from this imx8 so pretty pretty good latencies here now drum roll how does it look in the guest operating system and this looked actually really really good actually slightly smaller but at the end of the day the worst case latency is pretty much in the same area than on the host so we really in all of the measurements we did we reached native host latencies within the guest operating system so with shale house we could say that I'm interested running the guest doesn't have any influence on the host and we could even in the guest have native host latencies so once again it's it's completely partitioned system right so these systems are running completely independently and that brings us back to the question well then how does it look like with the level of separation right so if I do the same game with the blocksys driver like just emulating a misbehaving driver so how does that look like just uh injecting the noise on the host you could actually see that even if the root cell is disturbed the guest doesn't see any influence on that right so now we could really see that the host is completely independent I actually I could even crash the root cell the guest would keep running right so we have a very very high level of separation here with this right so before we start with the next chapter let's briefly summarize looking into the technologies I mean what what we could basically say is that with all technologies we came to the conclusion that you could have real-time behavior in the guest for KVM it was a bit tricky to configure you might need to accept a few constraints but at the end of the day it's it's it's doable with the real-time latencies for shale house for docker we pretty much hit the host latencies for KVM well there might be worse latencies in the guest operating system right um looking at the separation for docker is what was very limited for obvious reasons right for KVM remember in one direction we could get a disturbance in the other node so we had a very high level of separation looking at the guest operating system and with shale house it was really excellent right so we had complete isolation of the system but does this bring us to a complete independence of the host system and well you see and know for all three technologies we've been evaluating here now the question why would be why because I just told you at least with a hypervisor like shale house you have a very high level of separation so why do I tell you right now that you cannot get complete independence from host the main reason is it really depends on your hardware what you could really do and this is why we also looked a bit into the impact on shared hardware resources here so because if you have I mean we just separated the CPUs right but there are still resources at least on the ARM architecture we've been using so this is a different one but I mean just to to visualize there are hardware resources that are shared like the level 2 cache right and just to try to figure out what impact that really could have I just picked another board out of our qa farm was a quad core a cortex a 53 500 kilobytes of shared level 2 cache and I just tried to stress it a bit and see what influences could have on the behavior so this is basically how the system looks without any any memory stressing quite okay so we have a worst case latency usually on the board I've picked of 100 microseconds now what I did was as always I've been running cyclic test on all the four CPUs just remember usually the latency was in the area of 100 microseconds the only thing now which I did in addition was I've been using stress in G doing some weird allocations on just one of the four CPUs not on all right you could see I've set the stressors running on CPU zero running one malloc stressor with in maximum 32 allocations running in parallel just doing memory allocations in a very high frequency and as you could see I've been really bad so I just picked the exactly the cache size for the size of the application and the impact you could actually see here is that I'm doing the load on CPU zero but it has definitely a very significant impact on all the other CPUs like the latency is going up the six times the number you usually would see right and this is like why I told this no complete separation or separation is really depending on your hardware because there's not actually not much you could do in that scenario and this could actually be any unprivileged process that could do the memory access that which once again brings me to the point you cannot just randomly deploy workload and expect real time to work right you need to have a knowledge of the overall system and also how your hardware works right there's different hardware that could that handle differently but in this case no there's no work around just to prove this theory that this is caused by the shared last level cache I picked a different CPU this was a iMix 8 quad max which has two CPU clusters and the cache is always just shared on one CPU cluster right so we have four cortex A53 and two cortex A73 and both have a like separated cache right so I did once again the same stressing with the memory right so but basically the stressing was running just on the cortex A53 right on two of the cores which basically it's obvious also right here the latencies are going up to a very high value so on that CPU I usually also see values way less than 100 microseconds right so there is a significant impact but as you could see on the other CPU cluster there's actually no effect right here because they have a separate level two cache right so this is a pretty nice example on how shared hardware resources could really have an impact on the behavior could be the latency could be the runtime whatever I mean the the the caches is really a big source for performance right so if you mess that up you're in trouble okay so that pretty much brings me to the summary of the presentation so first of all let's summary the thank you that brings me pretty much to the summary of the real-time capabilities so we've learned that a guest system may have real-time capabilities depends a bit on the technology you are using for containers we've learned they can have the same latencies as the host for kvm we've seen that the guest may have longer latencies and for shale house we've also seen that we have the same latencies on the host but in any case what we've just learned keep in mind that shared hardware resources can really have a significant impact on what's happening and on the level of separation well summary with respect to the separation well you obviously learned that the guest system well may or may not be separated from the host depends on the technology you're using right with containers they are well based on how they are working not well separated full hardware virtualization guests with kvm may provide separation on a higher degree so we've seen that having a misbehaving driver in the guest doesn't have any influence on the ghost so we have a very high level of separation and last but not least with shale house well we've had a very high level of separation right so we could even crash the guest or the host and the other system would still keep running we don't see any influence on the latencies but once again also shared hardware resources in that setup could also lead to a significant different behavior when it comes to runtime and latencies so that's pretty much it what i wanted to tell thank you so much for intending my presentation and i would now be happy to answer your questions hi thank you for the presentation so one of our project we see the similar issue that the shared cache has a significant impact on the latency so other than the clustering did you did you have any suggestion that we could also do in our project because we tried with the clustering and that works that's a good thing but we couldn't manage to handle the shared one without clustering yeah it depends a little bit on the architecture you're using you might want to check really there might be a possibility even to color the caches or lock something which is not possible on the a53 rate in theory at least the rmb8 spec has a feature which is called a cache lockdown where you could like just lock a specific area but to be honest i up to now i didn't find any soc was really implemented right so that that would be a solution so but really check on your soc if there might be some some cache configuration that you could probably use apart from that there's not much more you could probably do in really looking at the at the software design avoid random memory allocations i mean in in this case i've been really bad to the system right i'm just allocating the exactly the cache size just avoid this kind of behavior but there's not much more you could actually do than looking into the architecture so it's not that you could configure the system and you could deploy any random load but once again check what your hardware can really really do but apart from that this unfortunately in a recommendation i can give you that one i think in jail house they implement some cache coloring technique did you try your test with no so that the virtual machine is rates on the cache level no actually i did not try that at all because maybe it could solve this such issue it it can limit but once again it is highly dependent on what you could really do on the hardware level okay thank you but once again in this scenario i didn't didn't try that out questions maybe from remote one one here yeah one question regarding your kvm case and the blocksys did you run the blocksys on all three virtual machines or did you just run it in one virtual machine and did that influence the other two um i had actually i did one run why i had two virtual machines running not just one and like it i couldn't see any influence between the guests when blocksys was running in the guest but definitely i always saw the influence just making it straight to the guest when i was running on the host which once again makes makes sense top that answer the question okay thank you guys


Well, I was just so honored that they picked UNC to be able to go out there in San Diego.  And I feel like they don't get the recognition that they deserve. I mean, going up there, putting their lives on the line.  And I think it's nice to just kind of realize what this game is really about. It's not UNC but it's Michigan State, but more about showing appreciation for our troops. All those are going to be a great experience for us, you know, just for us being, you know, the first team to ever play there.  It's a blessing. I mean, it just meant a lot to me to just go out and play for our troops, you know, because they mean a lot to our nation and they stand for our nation. So I think it's a great idea for us to play against Michigan State and carry a classic.  You know, it means so, so much to understand what those men and women do for us is something that is off the charts. I think we'll see some wanted warriors while we're there that will show what those people have sacrificed. Well, we try to teach our players all the time to be good citizens, to be good representatives of our university, good representative of their parents and themselves. And I think that goes hand in hand with what we want to do in this country is you want to stand for something higher than just your own individual worth. I'm looking at it as a way of honoring our military personnel. My teams have taken me to seven final fours, and that's been great when we played in the national championship game, I guess four times. And it's been fantastic. But this uniqueness of this again is something that I go back to. It's just a thrill for me to be involved.


What's good, Joshua boros back again with another video. So we're back with some more preview and predictions for extreme rules this year Man, I'm looking for it to check in out the pay-per-view. It's crazy to say This is gonna be one of the first times in a very long time. I'm actually somewhat excited for Extreme rules and not just for maybe one or two matches damn there The entire card has some type of interesting Stipulation I can appreciate triple H really trying to give us something that lives up to the name of extreme rules so I'm looking forward to it and We're gonna go on what I'm gonna talk about my preview and predictions go down the list of the match card And it should be a good time and I'm looking forward to this pay-per-view. All right Let's start this off with Liv Morgan versus Ronda Rousey for the Smackdown women's championship in a extreme rules match. Um, I Just Me personally, I just can't see Liv Morgan beating Ronda Rousey. I just I just can't see it now I didn't know extreme rules match unless there's some shenanigans. So What I do feel like may happen here and I could see them doing I can see Liv Morgan somehow winning this match you want to know how I think there's gonna be some type of Interference that happens that causes Ronda Rousey to lose this match. That's what I think will happen I don't think Liv Morgan is gonna win because she's just gonna dominate Ronda Rousey I think there's gonna be something at play that happens. Maybe a Shayna Baszler gets involved because you know Shayna Baszler and Ronda have had some words for each other In the past couple weeks. I don't know. Maybe Shayna Baszler gets involved me personally the decision I would love to see I would I mean granted Ronda as champion that's that's give or take but shit honestly man I wouldn't mind Ronda winning back the title, but I do think they're still going with Liv Morgan So Liv Morgan will win But I don't think she will win because she just goes mega extreme I think there will be some interference and that's how Liv Morgan will retain the title. That's just my opinion on it All right, we got Matt Riddle versus Seth Rollins in a fight pit match Daniel Cormier Cormier is the special guest referee. I'm looking forward to this match I hope we see a little bit of color there because it only makes sense to have some type of color in this type of match I believe Matt Riddle had a fight pit match on on NXT I was able to see some clips of that and there was some blood in there, you know, not too much But it made sense just to have a little bit of color, but honestly Matt rail needs this win He needs this win Matt Riddle has been taking a lot of L's just like Seth Rollins Seth Rollins had to win before at Clash of the Castle, which he needed Matt Riddle, he has to have this win Like you can't have him bring up a match that fits more of his his style for him to lose Matt Riddle needs this win Seth Rollins will be okay I think Matt Riddle wins here and then they can go there separate ways if they want to I think I think the feud is It's kind of it's kind of reached its peak. I don't think they need to do a rubber match in my opinion I think they need to just go to separate ways and then probably have something happen with Seth Rollins and Bobby Lashley because they've been setting that up on Monday Night Raw So maybe have him start feeding with Bobby Lashley for the United States Championship, but I think Matt Riddle will win here He needs this win. So I have Matt Riddle winning here drew McIntyre versus Canyon Cross strap match looking forward to it Things gonna be hard getting and brutal I'm gonna go ahead and give Karen cross the win here drew will lose it probably enough passing out Karen cross will get the victory here. Do they continue to feud? maybe Maybe they continue to feud. I'm not sure but Karen cross needs this win So I'm definitely giving Karen cross the W here because it just only makes sense for him to win You don't want him to build this guy up as somebody that's trying to be a threat to Roman Reigns at some point Only for him to lose to Drew in a strap match, you know So I would give Karen cross the win here looking forward to it though. I think it's gonna be brutal and hard hitting Bianca Belair versus Bailey for the Raw Women's Championship in a ladder match. This should be fun they've really been setting up the story of Bianca Belair not having no one in her corner because Damage control pretty much took out Oscar and Alexa Bliss. I guess in a sense.  I still think Bianca retained. I think she retained still to overcome the odds And then I think potentially at their next pay-per-view outing. I think that's when she'll probably drop it but I do see Bianca retaining because It's still you're trying to build up the you still want to you know, make Bianca strong And I think that would just be a good feel moment that she overcomes all she beats her And then finally she ends up dropping the title to Bailey It will happen sometime probably this year But I don't think this is the time yet, but it will happen. So I'm gonna go with Bianca Belair Retaining the women's Raw Women's Championship. Alright the next match the brawling brutes versus Imperium six-man tag Good old-fashioned Donnie Brooks match. I think this is gonna be fun. I think they're gonna have they're gonna This may be matching the night. They're gonna tear it down. It's gonna be brutal It's gonna be intense. Who do I have winning in this situation? Honestly I could I guess part of me wants to say the brawling Brutes Pardon me wants to say the brawling Brutes only to potentially set up another match with Seamus and Gunther But you know what? I'm gonna go with the heels here. I think Imperium will come out victorious and get the win here It's gonna be a brutal match. I can't wait to see it. This may even be the opening match I hope it is cuz this is gonna be good. It then there may still the show So I'm going with Imperium to be to be the ones to win against the brawling Brutes And the match that I think may and should be the main event I hope it is the main event edge versus Finn Balor in a I quit match. Oh Sign me up sign me up.  This is gonna be great. It's gonna be chaos and Honestly, I don't see edge saying I quit But I see something happening where he has to say I quit in order to save somebody like maybe Beth Phoenix is in a situation Where she may need to be saved granted Beth Phoenix can handle her own I really want Beth Phoenix to give a real Ripley the beats. I want dominate to get the beat So I don't know but I just something I Don't know man. It I just don't see it saying I quit willingly It would have to be something else like that, but honestly, I do think I Don't know this. This is a tough one because you don't want Finn Balor to say I quit You're trying to build up this group and they've been doing a pretty good job as somebody like they're real credible So like a real threat and the leader of the group Finn Balor saying I quit doesn't really work It kind of diminishes them just a bit in a sense So if this wasn't a group if it was just Finn Balor and edge and Finn Balor wasn't in a group Sure, I would go with edge, but since they're building up judgment day. I'm gonna have to say I'm going with Finn Balor winning Somehow Finn Balor will win It'll just be edge won't quit because he can't take the punishment no more He'll probably quit to like save somebody like maybe to save Ray Ray may end up getting sent to the ultimate gulags or sent upstairs to the upper room and he has to do it to save Ray he says I quit I quit I quit that's the only thing I can think of happening because you want to continue to build judgment day as just this ominous threat and you kind of derail that if you have Finn Balor say I quit because they've lost a multiple pay-per-views They've lost judgment day is also they need this win. So I can see edge putting over Finn Balor in this I quit match I'm looking forward to and I hope they they show out Um, and that's my preview predictions on extreme rules this year a very short card Which I can appreciate. I'm so thankful the card seems short straight to the point I like it. I love it. I like the format of triple h is doing with these these cards. They're not overbearing. There's not like Eight to ten matches. No, it's a few matches To get the point across and you know and I like that I can appreciate that I hope he continues to do that because those super long pay-per-views They just they drain you but something short and concise get straight to the point I'm all for man. We got six matches and that's that's a perfect length for An extreme rules pay-per-view and just a pay-per-view in general six matches You don't have to have everybody on the card. I can appreciate that So comment down below. Let me know who do you guys think will win Who do you guys think will lose and are you guys looking forward to extreme rules this year? Because I know I definitely am but I appreciate y'all kicking it with me, man. See y'all in the next one. Peace


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questions and then pass the microphone so you can just sit there and answer. Is that okay for everybody? Good. Who's going to start off? Thanks. I hate to do this, but I'm going to make a little bit of a comment as opposed to a question. Andy Berg from the IMF. I was mentioned a few times. I look forward to reading the 62-page paper, and the points are well taken. Many of them are familiar to us, but I have to say that the recommendation to use the WID and not the SWID reminds me of someone saying that they've done the pros and cons, and really bicycling is better than driving. Okay, you know, that's useful for some purposes that compares that suggestion, but for many others it's not. If what we've done is create demand with our work to create demand for better cross-country comparable databases, that's great for me. I have no particular vested interest in the SWID, and when that bike can cross the ocean, we'll take it. But I do think that, again, if I can promote myself, listening to the various presentations, both to just now and Tony Shorrocks before, I am struck with how much imputation and how much judgment goes into all these series. And I do think that if we sent Spanish statisticians to Mexico and Mexican statisticians to Spain to measure GDP, we would see huge differences in views about what GDP was across those countries. We know the GDP levels sometimes jump by 50% when people do revisions in many countries, not in rich countries, but in developing countries. And we know that when you go back and see they change the weights from 94 to 2000, and now the growth rate series looks totally different. You know, that doesn't stop us from even putting GDP growth on the left-hand side, let alone putting the level of GDP on the right in regressions. When we do growth, when we analyze growth, we measure institutions on the right-hand side. Imagine the measurement error and the variation across researchers in measurements of institutions. Openness. We always put openness. Not we, but we as a profession put openness on the right-hand side. What does that even mean? So I applaud, I really applaud these efforts to get better databases, but I do think there would be an element of sort of inequality if we users of these databases were told we kind of have to wait until we get the inequality data that can be put on the right-hand side. Okay. Let's try and have some questions. Are you managing there? I think just to respond, I will respond a bit to that, to say I think the trouble with the salt, the SWID data is that there is a gap in the market there, and this is what, I mean, the researchers want inequality data and they want it for every year, and there was a vacuum there, and if someone, our collective responsibility really is to try to provide the best data or simply make it quite clear that nobody should be trying to get data for years where we don't have any data, but you know, I think, I think there is a gap there, there is a vacuum, and it's going to be filled by somebody, and it would be better to have it filled by somebody who knows what they're doing. Jose Maria Lago from the University of San Paolo from Spain. A couple of days if my question is very easy, but I recently read some working papers from Pinkowski and Salai Martin, and they use exclusively data from national accounts instead of surveys. I would like if anybody of the commentators or presenters could give me some light why national accounts are more quality or lower quality than surveys, thank you. Okay, who else will we... This is a comment on the... I'd like questions rather than comments, but the comment can be short. The comment is that I can claim to be the father of WIDD, and actually the idea was that WIDD was supposed to be just a collection of information, and for every number there were like six fields which were being filled in, and in the end the data were rated, and there was a big warning at the beginning of the database saying don't use these for, say, time series, regressions, and so on and so forth. And if you want to do that, use data which do come exactly from the same type of surveys and so on and so forth. So that basically then, since the market demands regression support, I mean data support and regression analysis, that actually the users have been using this data wrongly in some cases. So we suggested that you can do regression analysis if you choose data which come from comparable surveys and same income concept, same coverage, and so on and so forth. Now people are making, perhaps you should lock up the data, I mean, I don't know, but the original idea was not that use this information provides you, you should use all the data, even the one rated one as consistent, because they were clearly indicated they were coming from different cities. Now a brief comment on Francois, I think that comparing the discrepancies that exist on African datas or Eastern European datas and Latin American datas, the Latin American datas are the one which on average, they show the least discrepancy.  Yes, you're cut behind you wider and now working on trying to improve to be it. We agree. Some comments on the comments made by Professor Jenkins. First of all, we are very grateful for these very useful comments and in the very latest version, we have tried to actually take into account some of them or at least those which are more technically oriented. So for example, mistakes have been corrected. And we completely share the view that it's very good to ask researchers to be explicit about the data they use. And in fact, this is now our final conclusion in the revised user guide. One point regarding the multitude of series there are in the weed. One reason for that is that sometimes we also report in addition to the country average, we also report specific figures for rural and urban areas. And that's one of the reasons there are multiple theories. And we do give guidance to the researchers by giving this quality variable data. So not researchers to use those observations with the highest quality. But maybe as a further development, one option would be to provide in a sense two versions of the data. One is the full with everything we can find. And the second one, which is in a simplified with just one observation for each country, it's here for particular definition of genie, like whether that refers to before or after taxes. So that's just one possibility. And perhaps Stephen would like to comment on whether that would make sense. Okay, do we have any more questions? I would. Okay, then I'll come in. Yes, all right. Thank you. I hope it's okay that I make sort of a bit more like a comment, but I hope then that you can comment on that. The first one I want to say is that a few years ago, when I started at wider, just before I came to my horror, I saw that the weed was used for paper that was published in journal development economics. And it was a totally misuse of the database. Together with colleague, I prepared a review of that paper to the JDE and the review was rejected. The editor at the time was a colleague called Easterly and it was about aid and income inequality changes. It taught me a lesson. It taught me that the way it can be terribly misused. And it made me somewhat nervous to take over the heritage of the word. In addition to that, at the time, we had some transitional problems in terms of getting the word updated. Those problems are recognized up front. We were not quick in getting the updating process going. And I'm saying this in all honesty and I can give you lots of good excuses, but that's what happened. Then we were bashed very severely by AARC in a couple of meetings where we were told the weed is useless. So I went a little bit into my dark room and was reflecting a little bit. And then I consulted my academic board and they said, you have to continue to keep the weed moving. Okay. So we went back and we continued and we went on with the process. But then basically what happened, which sort of made us somewhat reflectful, was that then certainly there was this other database out there which had been put out and it wasn't quite clear that it was actually essentially just the weed. It took a bit of time for us to figure out what was going on. We were never contacted. So we have sort of, and I'm saying this in all respect, it is of course completely appropriate and okay that an outside researcher uses it, but internally we are sometimes jokingly referring to it as the stolen weed. Because we certainly saw that the decrease in website hits and so on went down considerably. And I'm saying this in all honesty and I don't mean that it's perfectly fine for somebody to continue to the work. But we were behind. We were late. But then I was also somewhat scared because then we certainly discovered the Dessert. This is sort of not exactly our equivalent, but within the UN headquarters is the one that sort of makes statements and studies about inequality. They came out and we were asked to comment on a number of papers saying that inequality in a number of African countries have gone down and that was strictly against what we had found. So then back to the drawing board again. Now we were in the process. We have been working hard to get it updated. And then by coincidence, and I'm saying this also just to say that I did not know of the work by the Journal of Inequality. I did not know about it until Nora four months ago. Something like that. When we then decided it was appropriate to have a special session. This session and I really wish and I hope it's okay that I just sort of make this plea. We are in a process of trying to figure out how we as an institution can help provide a public good and put the resources behind that, which is bigger than what an individual researcher can do or not do. But we had of course also been doing some of this homework that has now been referred to. And the big question for us, of course, is how do we take the next step? I mean, how can we try to add to the general environment of researchers in a good and productive and forward looking way? And that's why I would like to express my appreciation for the work and that's been done. And really this is for us. Just okay. This is now the next step. This is where do we move from here? And that's why we very much appreciate this interaction and this feedback between producers of data, users of data, so that we can figure out what it is that we as an institution can productively try to do in a helpful way. Thank you. Sorry, this became a bit long. So let's go back to the speakers and see if they have any final comments. Let's start with Nora. Sorry. All right. Can I just respond to Andrew Berg? First of all, I want to apologize if my remarks appeared ad hominem. It was certainly not intended that way. You just unfortunately happened to be here this morning and giving a paper about swid. And I like the paper in many respects. So I just want to point out that I appreciate you want answers. It's true that I'm a cyclist. I'm no longer a car owner. I live in central London. But beware of cars. They often go down wrong directions. And I really do appreciate that you want answers. But I think there are issues. This quality coverage conundrum really just has to be recognized a bit more. And essentially, I guess my beef, if I do have a beef with your paper, is about not taking data issues sufficiently seriously. And I like what you do in table four, for example, in the sensitivity analysis. But I would basically wanting rather more. And I'd also point out that, okay, I've grumbled about swid. But please note that I did talk about with use as well. The point about swid is that it promises to be a magic general all purpose solution. Okay, you don't have to provide the numbers. You're given the numbers. You use them with swid. It's the other way around. The responsibility is put on you, the user. And so my points were very much the same to with users. They have to address the same issues. It's just being done at different steps. And we have to we have to remember this. So the bottom line is essentially the things that Tony was saying before, everybody's been saying, take data, data issues very carefully, treat them seriously. Okay, I'm responsible behind you. Are you gonna? Not on a few points. The first thing that maybe commenting on the comments by Marcus, I think that when we discuss all these issues, I mean, there is one actor which was missing in this discussion, which is the National Statistical Office. Because all those people dealing with those databases, I mean, they cannot reinvent the surveys. I mean, they cannot introduce questions which were not there. And very much of the critiques that we can make and the hard feelings that we have about all these data are very much linked to those people responsible for the survey. So this means that in this journal of economic inequality issue, there must be something about this must be something urging more consultation between users and producers of those surveys. The second comment, maybe it's linked to what Stephen said, and also Marcus, is also linked to the discussion with Andy. I think that where we have a problem with this noise in the data on inequality, it is when we put inequality on the right hand side. Because here we have measurement error, and we know that all those coefficients will be very much biased. And this means that if we find that inequality has no impact on the left hand side variable, we don't know how to conclude maybe this is because there is too much measurement error on inequality. And the point made by Andy about why don't we have the same problem with institutions? We have the same problem with institutions. This is very, very badly measured. And we don't really know what we do with this. So I think that this is an invitation to take much more carefully all those cross country panel cross country work, looking more carefully to the way to the accuracy of the variables on the right hand side. The final point is about the question about Salah Martin and Mikhovsky. This is a different story. The debate there was about not so much a distribution data. It is about the mean income data. So some people would like to in estimating global distribution. Some people would like to use the mean income as given by the surveys. And some people say, okay, but this is not really accurate or this is not a good representation of the average welfare in the economy because public goods are missing. And so it is better to normalize all the distributional data by national account by GDP per capita or consumption per capita, whatever. So it is a different story because this is not something which has to do with distributional data, but simply with mean income, which is something different. And finally, a point on Andrea. I didn't say that what was going on in Latin America was bad. I simply said that there was a problem when you had two databases which are not giving you the same kind of information. But overall, I would say that this is what I'm saying in the paper. I think that CEDLAQ is doing a rather good job. And this is really the best practice at this stage. And the problem they have are coming from the surveys, not from the way in which they are using the surveys. So I think it is an important point. Okay, I just want to say a couple of things. I think you know that Andy, I mean, Andy and I have been talking about this now for quite some time. And that's why you said you were scared of me, but I never say things in public very much. The issue I think here is what I said at the end of my presentation. I don't have, you know, I am no expert of imputations. I just, the same way as you, Andy, want to use data, I'd like to use that data, but I want to be sanctioned by somebody who is an expert. Now I have Steven's opinion, and it makes me feel very uneasy. I think that what we're trying to do with this special issue also is to begin to apply the same scientific demands on databases as we do on articles. I mean, articles that are not published in reputable journals usually are not taken as seriously as us. It doesn't mean that they're always right, like Finn said. So I think that one of the things that we could have as a convention is that these databases get scrutinized, and maybe, you know, this time maybe not everybody got it right, but it's the beginning of a process. And I think that that is what I'm asking from the data users, because we know that this data, many of them, like you said, come from imputation, et cetera, but we're learning what the problems might be, and therefore we have to be more careful in terms of how we use them, maybe do much more robustness checks using, you know, replacing the values when there is hard data in the cases in which they're imputed, et cetera. And Finn, if I may, as I was listening to you, maybe wider is well positioned to start a process which is more formal in terms of how to do this interaction between users and producers and begin to generate certain conventions instead of everybody working in isolation so that we never come to a conclusion of what is acceptable from the different points of view, using science at the frontier as it is today, and, you know, in progress with progress as progress occurs. Thank you. Thank you. I think your sort of comments are very much in line with my own views about where the wind should be going. So we, I'm sure Finn would be very happy if you sat down before you go and just flesh that out a little bit. Andrea, you have any more comments to make, or you're the last speaker who hasn't re-spoken? Don't far too many things have been said already, but let me make very quickly two points. First one, you said at the end of the session that you are scared about the data issues. Let me instead stress one word that was used by Francois in his talk today, progress. I think that we have made huge progress in understanding and community on all sides, theoretical and empirical. We have much better data and especially we are much more aware of all the problems with data. So we are moving on. The second point is that there is no real tension between the national accounts and the sample surveys, tax-based data and so on. They tell us different stories with their own weaknesses and their own strengths. We have to live with multiplicity of sources. So there is no easy way to simplify problems. So that's the problem of salt. That seems to provide the right, the simple answer to a problem that is not possible to reduce to a single number. We have to live with different information and to understand why they are different. Okay, well thank you very much. I just realized we've run 25 minutes over which it's almost a record, I think, and just shows us how much interest there is in this topic and hardly anyone has been leaving the room. So thank you very much. Let's give a big hand to our and hopefully this will be a good input into doing something but to get the with back in its central role and to make sure it's updated regularly and we are aware of these issues. So thank you very much and we there's half an hour before the reception here.


Who wants to answer the first question? Aiden, how old is mommy? 41. How old is daddy? 47. Ryder, what do you think? How old is mommy? 41. And how old is daddy? 42. 42? Good girl. Good job, Aiden. What's mommy's favorite food? Uh, watermelon. Aiden, what's mommy's favorite food? Uh, salad. What's daddy's favorite food? Uh, chicken. Aiden, what's daddy's favorite food? Uh, salmon. If mommy was an animal, what animal would she be? Uh, a beautiful cat. Why would mommy be a beautiful cat? Because you're beautiful. A porcupine? Why would mommy be a porcupine? Because you're brown and porcupines are brown. Daddy will be a chicken. Yes, a chicken. A brown chicken. Wait, why would daddy be a brown chicken? Because... Actually, a white chicken. What is mommy really good at? Good at controlling her computer. What's mommy good at? Uh, controlling her computer. Aiden, sit down. What does daddy do for work? Uh, he does work on a computer. Oh, I do. Aiden, what does daddy do? You sell wine. What does mommy do for work? Uh, she works on a computer and a phone. She works on a computer and a phone? Aiden, what does mommy do for work? Uh, she makes movies. Who's on their computer more? Mommy or daddy? Daddy. So why do you keep saying me? Well, because you see me on Monday. That's not fair. Who's on their phone more? Okay, okay, wait. What is mommy good at? What do I always do? Uh, controlling your phone. Oh, dang it. This is not good. What's daddy good at? Uh... Hands up in the pool. I'm just standing up on the pool. What makes daddy laugh, Aiden? Tickle him on the back of his neck. Let's use real words, okay? Real words, real words. I don't understand those words. We have to use real words, okay? What makes mommy laugh? Uh... Tickle. Tickle, yes. What makes mommy laugh? Make funny faces. Can you show me one of your funny faces that makes me laugh? What is something mommy always says to you, right, Rye? Kisses and hide games. Aiden, what's something mommy always says to you? Uh, I'm the best boy in the world. What does daddy say to you, Aiden? I'm really smart. Yes. Rye, what does daddy say to you? Uh... What is mommy's favorite thing to do? To eat food. What else do I like to drink? Water. Great. What does mommy look? I never mind wine. If mommy was a cartoon character, what cartoon character would she be? Uh... A beautiful princess. Oh, thank you. Aiden. Minnie Mouse? Mommy, does that sound like Minnie Mouse? Huh! If daddy was a cartoon character, what would he be, Rye Rye? Uh... Minnie Mouse? I would be Minnie Mouse? No, you mean Mickey. Mickey. A duck? A duck... A duck sit down, a duck. What makes daddy happy? A cat. What makes mommy happy? He gets surprises. What'd you say, Rye Rye? He gets some haageng, haageng, and cake. Who is funnier, mommy or daddy?


We're clearly entering a new era. It's going to be new exciting sort of scary in some ways We've been together for 16 years and it's like losing a boss or friend All at once, but he has prepared the ground really well for the new era has fostered each of us individually as researchers Intellectually personally and he will not be totally gone. That's for sure My jobs up until EPI were all one or two-year jobs So the idea that I've been here for 30 years Is quite an unexpected joy and and the fact that there is such an institution that has allowed me to be all of me Welcome to on the economy. It's actually kind of hard to articulate what I've learned from Larry because Kind of everything I do I learned from Larry. So I have his voice in my head every time I do anything Larry is the best boss. I had in my entire work life of 40 plus years He supported me as an economist as an intellectual He's just been a great colleague and a friend Larry is proud of being a voice for working families and and that's one of the reasons that EPI's work has been so strong over 30 years I was very early attracted to working with the labor movement He has spent his entire adult life working in unions and with unions and for union members. I Decided that that was going to dedicate my life to trying to be some kind of expert bring technical skill To the labor movement at first it was I thought it was going to be as a labor lawyer But I quickly realized I was really interested in economics, which is due to my professor I met at Penn State Chuck Crapo. I wanted to say just a few things And why I think the topic we're dealing with today and the way it's being dealt with is rather refreshing for me 20 years ago there was a kind of orthodoxy which said well, it's all technology skill bias technological change and Larry was one of the first people to say hey This doesn't fit the facts. This isn't what's happening. It's a story about something very very different It's a story about bargaining power about unions about relationships. I've just completed a comprehensive study of the friends and Income wages employment wealth and poverty all the state of working America VPI under Larry's influence has become probably the most important source of data About what is happening in the workplace things that EPI was saying 20 years ago I mean was hammering 20 years ago and everybody was saying you're crazy That's not correct things about international trade things about wage stagnation things about inequality things that EPI was saying really important and People didn't quite get it back then all of them now are considered really important Probably the biggest policy change we've seen so far It's probably minimum wage policy Where Larry's and EP are probably done more than anyone else to make that part of our political discourse EPI allows me to be connected to the labor movement to connect it to workers But to also do academic quality work for the last two weeks I've been the president of the Economic Policy Institute to talk to the media that talked to policy makers It allows me to be all of me all the different parts that I really wanted to be he has Mentored so many young economists and then they go on and You know make names for themselves Because of his mentoring The idea that he has allowed us to meddle with this thing that is his baby state of working America and Try to experiment with different ways to get the message out and tell the narrative in ways that will resonate with people I think speaks really highly of them. I've never been about me. It's been about Our being effective Patients have shrunk not from what the government has taken out But it's what employers have failed to put in it's been a hard 30 years to watch the labor movement in decline And there aren't very many people who have fought harder and done more to tell the world Why that's a bad trend why we need unions the famous graph which shows Productivity going up, but wages not Larry was instrumental in being able to illustrate How that matters for workers in this country first appeared in the 1994 state of working America that Jared Bernstein and I Prepared we kind of spent most of our time together back then Crunching numbers and we both remember to this day a conversation with Bob Rubin in the White House Bob Rubin I believe was talking about some of the improvements in the deficit and how the economy was starting to percolate And we said yeah all true, but look at this chart and we said Bob look at figure a There's productivity here's median wages. They don't necessarily Grow together, and he said oh well, that's a problem This is not a think tank and the way of you go off to your office And you think and your job is done Your job is to win fights that will make life better for low and middle-income Americans And until you do that your job is not done and every time you lose you should take it personally and boy Larry takes it personally. I think that he really cares. He is constantly reminded of the people that are at the other end of the work That we're doing Obviously, I'm a Phillies fan don't mess with him when it comes to the Eagles or anything to do with Philadelphia He's a Philly boy my Eagles hat got a spring training with the signature Jason Peters the best left tackle and football He says he bleeds eagle blue and is it blue green? I guess Eagles green I'm no Eagles fan. You've been sort of on the right side of this in certain ways history is moving your direction now here comes Donald Trump Well, I'm not sure why you all give Donald Trump any credibility at all in economics when you talk to him I still got some game left and so that's why I Aspire to become an API economist for several more years, and I expect I'll I'll do some TV and I'll do some media still Larry's voice will be even more important in this very troubling age that we have now moved into I Think he has left behind a legacy of people who are really committed to the work and have been trained really well to continue the work So I think we've got that really solid core at EPI listen to EPI now And then you were off to kick yourself in the ass because you didn't listen to him 20 years ago I wish Larry well as he goes on on his next adventure He's not falling off the face of the earth and in fact my guess is you could not stop him from Offering his insights and his analysis on what's happening in the economy if you actively try it. I Know he'll be by my side. I know he'll always have good advice for me And I know he always will care about the future of EPI I just like to tell him thanks for having me work with him all these years and and for being a friend There's a team of people here at EPI that carry on that work really independent of me at this time And I think they do just a wonderful job and I'm very proud of them


Can you just give me your name? My name is Tana, T-A-N-A. Tana. First and last name and spell that. Ratliff, R-A-T-T-L-I-F-F was in Frank. And your position here at school? I teach special needs. You ready? Yep. Alright. If you could just tell me how did you come to meet in New Dakota? Okay. My first year back teaching here I taught here before and I was transferred to a different school. And I really was hesitant about coming back here and working with high school students. So the first day of school, before school even started, Dakota was at my back door. And I thought, what's this kid doing at my door? You know, I don't know him. Why is he here? So when I opened the door, he said, could I be a peer tutor in your room this year? And I thought, well, I don't have the authority to let you do that, but we'll go through the white channels and maybe we can work that out. So Dakota came to my classroom as a peer tutor for an autistic student. And they formed a wonderful bond. The relationship was great. Dakota was a great role model for him. It was the best school year I've ever had. It worked out wonderful. Can you tell me a little bit more about the relationship between Dakota and the student? Dakota, if you know Dakota very well, he is quite lively. I guess it's the right word. He would wear, we had a body sock that the autistic student wore for kind of calming for him. And he was, he really was reluctant to wearing the suit. So Dakota would wear the suit around in the halls. And other students would think it was our autistic student and Dakota would talk to those students with the suit on. It was really funny. And when the autistic student saw Dakota wearing it, then he decided he would wear it. So they would walk around the halls together and it was great for him. What is it about Dakota that you think the student was drawn to him? Dakota being so outgoing. And, you know, I've told other people, the other teachers in the building didn't get to know Dakota the way that I did because I saw more softer side of him. You know, there's a lot of people when you work with students with disabilities. Some people are really reluctant to get to know them because it scares them because you don't really know, you don't know what they're all about. And Dakota was not scared at all. He came right in, you know, he would talk to him. He would take his hand to walk around the halls with him. And I think that his calm mannerisms when he was around him, I think it was just really, really what the student needed. And what kind of changes did you see in the student after he had stopped going? I'm going to ask it again so that we can have a second in between. What kind of changes did you see in between, what kind of changes did you see in the student after Dakota started hanging out with him? He became more outgoing. The student was mostly non-verbal, basically in his own little world. And once he began roaming around with Dakota, he got a whole lot more outgoing. He was more willing to walk up to people and try to communicate with them. So like I said, it was really good for him.  Like, was it zero to 180, a complete change? What was your initial impression versus what you actually learned about him? I had never met Dakota, but I had heard other people talk about him. He was a normal, rambunctious senior in high school. So I really was hesitant to have him in this classroom. And I told him the first day I said, you know, if you're going to work with my students, they're like my children. You're going to have to be a good role model. You know, you can't act crazy. You're here for them. And he was really accepted to that. And he did make a lot of changes. You know, he seemed more settled when it was time to graduate. You know, we talked about it. I didn't feel like he was ready for college because he wasn't sure what he wanted to do. And I knew he didn't just need to get a job and hang around here. So I really believe that he became mature enough to go to the Marines and do his job there. What was your initial reaction when you said, hey, I'm going to be a Marine? It scared me because I know when you tell Dakota he can't do something, he's going to do it. You know, one way or another, he's going to do it. So all along I said, you know, I think that'll be fine for you. You know, the structure and the role models that would be there, I thought that would be great for him. And what were your thoughts when you heard that he was going to receive a medal of honor? Honor to know Dakota. Just, just, I felt honored just to have been a part of his life.  And has this changed him at all? He's more humbled. You know, he's not boastful when Dakota was in high school, he was boastful. But you know, he's not boastful at all. He's humbled by the whole situation. He's handling it very well for his age. And in a sentence or a few adjectives, can you say Dakota Meyer is, but repeat that to me, Dakota Meyer is and then just finish the sentence. That's hard to sum it up. The first thing that comes to mind.  But I'm very proud of him and I can't, I can't sum it up in one, you know, one word, one sentence. He just means too much to me. Oh, do you have anything to add? I don't know.